Sitting of 25 March 1982

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
HERTSMERE BOROUGH COUNCIL (ROWLEY LANE) BILL
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  WEST YORKSHIRE (PARKING AND TRANSPORT) BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  ALEXANDRA PARK AND PALACE BILL (By Order)
  LONDON TRANSPORT (LIVERPOOL STREET) BILL (By Order)

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) (No. 2) Bill (By Order)
  Orders for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Wednesday 7 April.
  SEVERN-TRENT WATER AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
  TEES AND HARTLEPOOL PORT AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
  BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL (By Order)

  FELTHAM STATION AREA REDEVELOPMENT (LONGFORD RIVER) BILL (By Order)
  Orders for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Thursday 1 April.

Oral Answers to Questions
  NORTHERN IRELAND
  Mr. Speaker: Before we turn to questions, I should say that it is hopeless to try to call every party interested in every question. I can only do my best.

  De Lorean Motor Company
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement about the progress of the work of the receiver of the De Lorean Motor Company.
  The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Adam Butler): I understand that the receivers and managers of De Lorean Motor Cars Limited have continued limited production at the plant in Dunmurry and have pursued their discussions with parties who have exhibited interest in the business with a view to selling it as a going concern.
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: In the absence of a sale by Sir Kenneth Cork to any other concern, how long will the funds currently in the company continue to pay the wages bill and other operating costs?
  Mr. Butler: My hon. Friend knows that the receiver has particular responsibilities towards the creditors and that it is up to him to decide how long to continue the operation at its present level of activity. I assure my hon. Friend and the House that there is genuine interest at the moment in the purchase of the company, which Sir Kenneth Cork and Mr. Shewell, as receiver managers, continue to pursue.
  Mr. Cryer: Will the Minister use his powers to ensure that the company and assets are not sold to any of these interested parties at any knock-down price, and ensure that the assets stay in Northern Ireland in order to preserve jobs? Will he, in view of the controversial record of Mr. John de Lorean, look particularly carefully at any application by a company involving Mr. de Lorean and its advisers or board?
  Mr. Butler: Clearly, it is in the interests of those in Northern Ireland that the plant should continue there and provide employment. Particular points on potential purchasers are very much matters for the receiver.
  Mr. Concannon: Is it still the Government's view that this car is a good product? Is not the best way out of this dilemma to sell the car? Do the Government believe that if we harm the individual that harms the product and, once the product is harmed that much, that leads to the closure of the factory and those employed there will fight like mad for redundancy payments.
  Mr. Butler: It is established that the car is a good product. It is also established that the factory and work force at Dunmurry are capable of producing the car. What matters is whether the car can be sold at a price that results in a volume sufficient to allow the plant to operate profitably. Any potential buyer must make that assessment on the available evidence.

  Devolved Government
  Mr. Arnoldasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to introduce firm proposals for devolved government in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Lathamasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on future constitutional arrangements for the Province, including setting up any form of Assembly.
  Rev. Ian Paisleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the progress of his proposals for a devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland.
  Sir John Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about his talks with representatives of political parties on his constitutional proposals.
  The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. James Prior): I have had further discussions with the political parties in Northern Ireland with a view to bringing before the House proposals for the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland, but no final decisions have yet been taken.
  Mr. Arnold: If the present momentum is maintained, does my right hon. Friend believe that the political parties will be prepared to participate in elections for a new Assembly?
  Mr. Prior: My discussions with the political parties are continuing and I have reason to believe that they will take part in an election. I hope that this can be the start of an Assembly, if that is the decision reached by the Government.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.
  Mr. Latham: If my right hon. Friend's private soundings suggest that political leaders in the Province are opposed to his proposals, would it not be better to shelve the idea of an initiative? We have had far too many unsuccessful ones in recent years.
  Mr. Prior: One has to bear in mind that simply to do nothing does not mean that the position remains the same or improves. It is the wish of all political parties in Northern Ireland that there should be a devolved Administration. We have to recognise that wish as well.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that in his proposals there are no suggestions of an institutionalised Irish dimension or enforced power sharing? Does he know that if he goes along that path he is bound to fail?
  Mr. Prior: We are now presuming on what may happen in the future. I should rather wait for these points to be discussed when and if the Government proceed with the proposals.
  Sir John Biggs-Davison: Is not the best safeguard for the minority in Northern Ireland to be found in this Parliament rather than in an intricate system of checks and balances?
  Mr. Prior: The best safeguard for the minority in Northern Ireland is for it to feel that it can play a full part both in the Government and in an Assembly in Northern Ireland, and also in supporting the forces of law and order. That is the way in which we can obtain peace. It may be a long way off, but it is the right road.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: If the Secretary of State is so sure that he knows the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, why has it been necessary, during the last nine months, for officials of his Department to tamper with individual members of the political parties with a view to manipulating their response; or was that happening without the knowledge of authorisation of his predecessor and himself?
  Mr. Prior: There is no tampering going on. When will the right hon. Gentleman give up these absurd notions on this subject? Why can he not take the same attitude towards the Civil Service as he took when he was a member of a Government?
  Mr. Kilfedder: As the Minister's proposals will merely end up with providing Ulster with a talking shop Assembly, would not a better initiative be to establish a Northern Ireland Select Committee, which would give responsibility and some power to Ulster Members of Parliament?
  Mr. Prior: The proposals that are being discussed with the political parties involve the setting up of an Assembly, which could lead to a devolved Administration in Northern Ireland. It would be for the Assembly to decide what powers should be transferred to it and to make recommendations to the House. This is the right way forward. It would have that opportunity from day one, but until that time was reached it would have important work to do as an Assembly.
  Mr. Concannon: When, or if, the Secretary of State comes forward with this legislation, I assume that there will be a White Paper and a Bill. The Opposition would like to be assured that proper debating time will be given to the House. One assurance that we wish is that in any devolving of power the House will have the last say in whatever is devolved.
  Mr. Prior: I am certain that on the last point the House would in no way be prepared to give up its authority and right to make final decisions about any transfer of powers. If the Government decide to proceed with the policy that we have been discussing with the political parties it will be necessary for a White Paper and a Bill to be presented to Parliament. At this stage I want to make it clear that the Government have reached no decision. Until we do there is nothing further for me to say.
  Dr. Mawhinney: Does my right hon. Friend agree that those who are seeking to thwart his proposals, without advancing any constructive alternative that seeks to recognise that there are two communities in Northern Ireland, are doing a disservice to the people of Northern Ireland and may be damaging even further both its security and its economy?
  Mr. Prior: One has carefully to consider all the points made by my hon. Friend, and to recognise that stable and durable political arrangements can be achieved only on the basis of general consent. That is what I am seeking.

  Republic of Ireland (Co-operation)
  Mr. Dubsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he plans to meet representatives of the Government of the Republic of Ireland to discuss co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
  Mr. Nicholas Wintertonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for an early meeting with the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland; and what subjects he intends to raise.
  Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next expects to meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland to discuss future political developments in both parts of Ireland.
  Mr. Flanneryasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to meet the new Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland to discuss the new Government's policy towards Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to meet the new Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland to discuss cross-border security.
  Mr. Parryasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to meet the Taoiseach to discuss the new Government's policy towards Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Prior: I have no immediate plans to do so, but I look forward to meeting members of the new Government of the Republic of Ireland shortly, within the framework of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council, to discuss matters of mutual interest, including economic co-operation and security matters. I shall at an appropriate moment explain to the new Irish Government our present approach to political development in Northern Ireland.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call first the six hon. Members whose questions are being answered.
  Mr. Dubs: Can the Secretary of State confirm that it is still his intention to work for closer co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Government of the Republic, and that, in addition to economic matters, this co-operation will cover social and political issues?
  Mr. Prior: I confirm the first part of what the hon. Gentleman said on security and economic co-operation. The other matters must be conducted through the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic. That is an important process and as long is it is done in a way that is seen to be perfectly open and straightforward, more confidence and respect will be carried to other parts.
  Mr. Winterton: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to establish improved co-operation with the Republic and with Prime Minister Haughey is to establish a proper extradition agreement between the United Kingdom Government and the Irish Republic? Further, will my right hon. Friend inform Mr. Haughey, when he first meets him, now that Mr. Haughey has assumed the Irish premiership, that Ulster is part of the United Kingdom, not as long as the people of Ulster want it, but is part of the United Kingdom just as much as Wales and Scotland are and will long remain so?
  Mr. Prior: Successive Irish Governments have never been left in any doubt about the importance that we attach to the problem of fugitive offenders. We believe that a workable extradition arrangement offers the best way of dealing with it and of ensuring that terrorists are brought to justice. We shall continue to make our concern abundantly clear, and when I next see Mr. Haughey I shall do so again.
  Mr. Marlow: Will my right hon. Friend tell Mr. Haughey when he sees him that whatever benefits he might accrue domestically, demands for the reunification of Ireland cause grave problems for Irish-United Kingdom relations and have a destabilising effect in Northern Ireland, leading to increased violence and more hope for the IRA?
  Mr. Prior: I take that question with the supplementary question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). It is recognised and accepted by Mr. Haughey, and before him by Dr. FitzGerald, that no change to the constitution of Northern Ireland can be made without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. That consent is not forthcoming. There must be self-determination at all times and we fully respect that. I hope that all the people of Northern Ireland will work for the peace and prosperity of the Province and will accept that there are many advantages in being part of the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Flannery: Will the Minister realise that there are still powerful voices among the Unionists leadership who want only to return to the same Stormont that produced the anti-democracy that caused all the troubles in Northern Ireland, including the melancholy killings, even those that have happened today? The right hon. Member must not allow himself to be diverted from peaceful discussions with the leadership in the Republic with the idea of ultimately securing peace and prosperity for the whole of Ireland, North and South.
  Mr. Prior: I must make it abundantly clear that I believe that if any government in Northern Ireland is to be stable it must recognise that there are two communities and must seek to involve both communities in some sense in any devolved Assembly. Otherwise, I do not believe that it would have the stability that is required.
  Mr. Farr: When my right hon. Friend meets the leader of the South, will he congratulate that whole country on its splendid record in the apprehension and suppression of terrorism South of the border, which has occurred at a very difficult time for that country? Will he also ask the new leader whether the Republic of Ireland is prepared to consider once again becoming a signatory to the Council of Europe treaty on the suppression of terrorism?
  Mr. Prior: Certainly I could look at the latter point that my hon. Friend has raised. I am grateful to him for his first point, as co-operation on security matters in the past year or so has greatly improved, to the advantage of all the people of the whole of Ireland. Moreover, although we would of course wish to see extradition, we note that the effectiveness of extra-territorial legislation has much improved in recent months, and we hope that that will continue.
  Mr. Parry: Does the Secretary of State accept that future meetings with the Taoiseach must include the subject of Irish unity and that this will be a continuing dialogue? Will he treat with contempt or ignore hon. Members who are trying to sabotage such talks?
  Mr. Prior: I shall so long as both present and former Taoiseachs recognise that the important word is "consent". I understand that that is the position of the Opposition as well as of the Government.
  Mr. McCusker: The original question referred to co-operation. Will the Secretary of State confirm that there has never been any reluctance on the part of the people of Northern Ireland to co-operate with the people of the Republic, to their mutual advantage? But will he remind Mr. Haughey that if the Republic removed the offensive articles 2 and 3 of its constitution, which lay claim to our territory, there would be even greater scope for cooperation?
  Mr. Prior: Just as I am intent upon the future of Northern Ireland being the responsibility of this House, so it would be wrong for me to start telling other Governments what they should do, although one recognises the hon. Gentleman's point. I believe that it is important for us to make certain that in any connections between North and South the people of the North should feel that they are making the decisions, as they did before on economic matters when there was far more cooperation between North and South than has been possible in the past few years. That owes something to the suspicions in the North about what goes on in London.
  Mr. Peter Robinson: Will the Secretary of State take it from me that the people of Northern Ireland do not expect him to take a neutral attitude when their constitution is being discussed? Will he tell the Taoiseach the next time he meets him face to face that his clumsy and insensitive comments are doing great harm in Northern Ireland, and will he tell him where the Northern Ireland border is?
  Mr. Prior: "Neutrality" must be a subjective word. I am seeking to work for the good of all the people of Northern Ireland. I believe that it is greatly to the advantage of the United Kingdom that there should be friendly and good co-operation between the United Kingdom and the Republic. If that helps to solve some of the security and economic problems of Northern Ireland, that is a bonus.
  Mr. Winnick: Leaving aside the sectarian bigots on the Government Benches and the terrorists who continue to glory in murder, is it not a fact that the co-operation and indeed the approval of the Irish Government is necessary before a political solution can be found to the crisis in Northern Ireland?
  Mr. Prior: I should like to think that we can discuss these matters across the Floor of the House without using extravagant language which does nothing to help solve what is a terribly difficult problem for both sides. Therefore, let us try to get going something that can be supported by all the people of Northern Ireland as well as by the people of the United Kingdom and the Republic.
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: When my right hon. Friend next meets the Taoiseach, will he ask him to elaborate on his comments that the present plans for a devolved Assembly are unworkable?
  Mr. Prior: I have no arrangements at present to meet the Taoiseach, but when I do those points are bound to arise. I hope that I shall have the chance to meet the Taoiseach and perhaps the Irish Foreign Minister before long, as I believe that nothing but good can come out of a full explanation.

  Security
  Mr. Molyneauxasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Stanbrookasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Prior: Since I last answered questions, on 25 February, three civilians and three members of the security forces have been murdered by terrorists. That includes the serious incident this morning in which three soldiers were shot dead outside Springfield Road police station, Belfast. Of the other murders, one—that of an 11-year-old boy on 15 March—was caused in the Provisional IRA's bombing attack in Banbridge, Armagh, Newry, Newtownstewart and Belfast. The bomb in Banbridge went off without warning and 23 persons were also injured there. On 5 March a man was found shot dead near the border, the Provisional IRA claiming, without foundation, that he was an informer. On 12 March, a man who had left the Ulster Defence Regiment more than six years ago was shot dead by the Provisional IRA in front of his wife and child as he
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  arrived for his day's work. In their different ways, those six killings sum up the horror and shocking futility of the terrorists' business in Northern Ireland today.
  There was also an attempt to assassinate the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Lowry, on 2 March when he arrived at Queen's University, Belfast, to give a lecture. Lord Lowry was not injured, but another man was hit.
  Apart from the bombs that exploded on 15 March, there were nine other terrorist bombing incidents. In the past four weeks, the security forces neutralised 11 bombs and seized 27 weapons and 1,505 rounds of ammunition.
  In the same period, 73 people were charged with terrorist crimes, including one with murder and 11 with attempted murder. The police have had increasing success in bringing to justice before the courts many of those responsible for past outrages. Since the beginning of 1982, 204 people have been charged with terrorist-type crimes.
  Mr. Molyneaux: Following the dastardly killing of three soldiers in Belfast this morning, does the Secretary of State agree that it is highly dangerous for people to assert that terrorist agencies have been seriously damaged or broken by the activities of informers? Does he also share our grave concern at the failure in Fermanagh, at the other end of the Province, to bring to justice the murderers of 50 law-abiding citizens of that county? Will he assure the House that everything possible will be done to bring the murderers of those people to justice?
  Mr. Prior: On the hon. Gentleman's latter point, certainly everything possible will be done to bring murderers to justice. On his earlier point, today's events are a timely reminder of the present position, the need for vigilance and the fact that violence is never far removed from the Northern Ireland scene.
  I should like to express on behalf of the whole House the feelings that we have for the families of the three men who were killed today, as well as for the families of all those who serve in Northern Ireland in the interests of the peace of the whole Province and the people of Northern Ireland. We must continue to do all that we can to help the security forces and to bring peace and stability to the Province. That will not be done quickly or easily. That is why it is so important that no hon. Member should say anything that makes the task of peaceful persuasion more difficult.
  Mr. Stanbrook: Is it not an appalling stain on the honour of a civilised country that it can allow the perpetrators of such crimes refuge and refuse to extradite them to face courts and trial? Is my right hon. Friend aware that the arrangements for extra-territorial jurisdiction are inadequate and will not succeed in returning most of those criminals to Northern Ireland for trial? Will he therefore tell the Irish Republic that it should do the decent thing and drop its bogus excuses for not signing the European convention on the suppression of terrorism, and sign that convention?
  Mr. Prior: I have already made my views plain on that matter. The House is worried about that point. What is more, I am certain that the Irish Government are under no illusions as to what we think.
  Mr. Concannon: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Opposition wish to join him in offering our respects and condolences to the families of those who have suffered from the dastardly deeds that took place this morning,

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  when three more of our young soldiers died while carrying out their duty on behalf of this country? In the past week I have read the newspapers and listened to the television comments, so this morning's killings seemed to me only another predictable response by the IRA. Those killings were due in part to all the loose talk about the demise of the IRA. People should not engage in loose talk about the demise of the IRA, because the IRA's response to that is predictable. Such a response leads to the death not only of those three young soldiers but of others. I share the Secretary of State's view that sometimes the loose talk would be better not engaged in.
  Mr. Prior: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's comments. Every time anyone in the press or elsewhere talks about the demise of the IRA, that is an open invitation for it to reappear. Therefore, the less said about those things, the better. We can rejoice privately when we think that we are doing a little better than we were, but we should all realise the dangers.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that all right-thinking people in Northern Ireland will fully endorse what he said today in sympathy to those recent victims of IRA atrocities and all victims in Northern Ireland? Will he assure us that there shall be no large payment or amnesty to IRA murderers, no matter what information they are prepared to sell to the Royal Ulster Constabulary? Has he any information, as has been made clear by the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux), that the CIA is engaged in murderous practices in Northern Ireland and Great Britain?
  Mr. Prior: The Chief Constable of the RUC has made it clear that people have not been offered large sums of money. The police offer a safe haven to people who give evidence on which terrorists can be brought to justice. The police provide them with assistance to start a new life. They are not bribed or threatened. The information that we have been receiving is of great importance. We must protect the people who give us that information and their families. I know of no such evidence about the CIA as the hon. Gentleman mentions. When President Reagan is going out of his way to be helpful to us, especially in the St. Patrick's Day speech, there should be more recognition of the real help that we are getting from some of our friends.

  Terrorism
  Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to publicise the effects of terrorism within the Province.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Nicholas Scott): The Government make every effort to bring home to people the appalling personal and economic tragedies caused by terrorist activities and to make it absolutely clear that those who use violence in pursuit of their political aims will not achieve those aims.
  Mr. Atkins: Is my hon. Friend aware of the congratulations and warm response being given to the film that has been produced by his Department, which is perhaps a little overdue, but is none the less welcome in the attempts that it makes to convey the revulsion and disgust felt by many people in the face of terrorism? Will he continue to build on the attempts already being made in the United States to convey to the people in that country
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  the effects of the fund-raising by Noraid? Will he continue to press strongly his Department's case, in the face of the activities of these terrorist groups?
  Mr. Scott: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments about the film. If other hon. Members would like to see it, I can make arrangements for that. I shall draw the attention of the Central Office of Information to my hon. Friend's remarks. In co-operation with my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs we have recently been reviewing the arrangements for presenting our case in the United States and elsewhere. We shall pursue that presentation with vigour.
  Mr. Rhodes James: Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the best ways to counteract terrorism and the difficulties in the Province in the long term is by the extension of education, particularly higher education? Will he accept that the decision of the Government two days ago relating to the new Ulster university represents a considerable step forward and should receive the support not only of the House but of all who are genuinely concerned about the future of Northern Ireland?
  Mr. Scott: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. I am not sure how they arise out of the main question, but that does not diminish my gratitude. That new institution can make a substantial contribution to the future of education in the Province.
  Mr. Kilfedder: Will the Government extend an invitation to President Reagan—who has shown such good common sense in rebuffing IRA sympathisers in the United States—to visit Northern Ireland in June, where he would be heartily welcomed, so that he can see at first hand the agony that the Ulster people have suffered for more than 13 years as a result of the murder and mutilation caused by the Provisional IRA, which has received so much financial and propaganda support in the United States?
  Mr. Scott: We have a continuous stream of visitors, journalistic and otherwise, from the United States to the Province. There is a high level of diplomatic representation there. I am sure that President Reagan is kept fully in touch with the developments. We are all grateful for the remarks that he made in his St. Patrick's Day speech.

  Robert Bradford (Apprehension of Murderers)
  Mr. J. Enoch Powellasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made in bringing to justice those responsible for the murder of the late Rev. Robert Bradford.
  Mr. Prior: Extensive police inquiries are continuing into the murders of the Rev. Robert Bradford and Mr. Campbell, who was killed with him. No one has been charged so far. The Royal Ulster Constabulary will continue its investigations until the guilty are brought to justice and punished.
  Mr. Powell: Why did the Secretary of State, on the day after Robert Bradford's funeral, use in the presence of my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneux), and others, the words: "We were not expecting Robert Bradford to be murdered"? Who were

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  they expecting would be murdered, and will the Secretary of State invite his officials to explain to him what he meant?
  Mr. Prior: I do not need officials to explain to me what I meant. What I meant was what I said. I stick to that.
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Trying, perhaps, to defuse a difficult situation—[Interruption.]— I understand the view expressed by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell). May I ask my right hon. Friend how Robert Bradford, who was a personal friend of many of us in the House, was murdered? Is it not right that people in the situation of the late Robert Bradford should receive more adequate security cover because of their sensitive position? Will my right hon. Friend assure us that hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies are adequately protected so that they can carry out their difficult job as Members of Parliament representing the people of Ulster?
  Mr. Prior: I am always grateful to my hon. Friend if he feels that he can defuse any situation. That is an unlikely role for him to adopt. Robert Bradford was receiving protection. It is a difficult matter ever to decide what is adequate protection. Those are the real difficulties from which we all suffer. One cannot even stop President Reagan, who is surrounded by vast numbers of people, from being the victim of an assassin's bullet. We are taking all the precautions that we can. We try to give all the help that we can to those whom we think are in any danger, and we shall continue to do so. The system is not perfect. There is always room for improvement. I believe that the RUC does a remarkable job and is a remarkable police force. Nothing that has been said should in any way detract from the marvellous work that it is doing.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the Secretary of State note that the people of Northern Ireland will be alarmed by his statement today at the Dispatch Box that he was not aware of the serious threat to the life of the late Rev. Robert Bradford?
  Hon. Members: He did not say that.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Perhaps he will explain what he did say. I gather that he said that he was not expecting it. Is it not a fact that the Special Branch had visited the late Mr. Bradford a few days before he was killed and warned him that he was on a death list?
  Mr. Prior: These matters are not easy to discuss across the Floor of the House, and are best not discussed. All I said was—and I repeat it now—that at that time we were going through a difficult and worrying period. We may go through such periods again. Certain information is received about certain people, while other information which we might like to receive we do not receive. At that time, although we were very worried about a number of VIPs, there was no more concern about Robert Bradford than there was about a number of others. I repeat that he was having protection. He did have protection at that time. Like all VIPs in Northern Ireland, he had been warned, as other are today, day in and day out, about the dangers. All that I regret, and I regret it bitterly, is that the murder took place. We all know how much we have suffered as a result of that.

  Housing (Belfast)
  Rev. Martin Smythasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on housing conditions in the Greater Belfast area.
  Mr. David Mitchell: Housing conditions in Greater Belfast are among the worst in the United Kingdom. Accordingly, the Housing Executive is giving highest priority to Belfast and it plans to commit about half of its total programme for the coming year in the city.
  Rev. Martin Smyth: I thank the Minister for that information. In view of the state of the construction industry in Northern Ireland, is he aware that there is plenty of work that could be usefully done? Is he prepared to outline plans and specify dates for the completion of the redevelopment of the Donegall Pass, Lower Woodstock and Ravenhill areas, bearing in mind that the long delay is reducing the quality of life there and making it impracticable for shops to be viable?
  Mr. Mitchell: It is not possible to give precise dates for the completion of the three redevelopment areas that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Much depends on the willingness of tenants to move. The decant problem has a major slowing-down effect on the programme itself. However, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and give him full details of the executive's proposals in those areas.
  Mr. Soley: When will the Government put the money into housing in Belfast and the surrounding areas that they deserve? We all know that 47·5 per cent. of the construction workers in Northern Ireland are unemployed and that the Province has some of the worst housing in Western Europe? When will there be more money to make up for the cuts that the Government have imposed?
  Mr. Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that not only have we embarked on the largest house building programme in Belfast since the age of Queen Victoria, but that we are spending considerably more money than was the case when his Government were in office.

  RUC Firearms
  Mr. William Rossasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the firearms at present issued to the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. John Patten): Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Ross: The Minister is aware that the full measure of the weapons from America have not yet been delivered. If they have not yet been delivered and they are not now needed, why is the order still there?
  Mr. Patten: The order from the Royal Ulster Constabulary is under review by our friends and allies in the United States. We try to understand why they chose not to supply us with hand guns, but we remain disappointed that they continue not to do so.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is ironic that the American Government are prepared to sell us Trident at a very good rate but are not prepared to provide hand guns for the Royal Ulster Constabulary?
  Mr. Patten: I entirely take my hon. Friend's point. It is a point that he put very forcefully in exactly the same

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  terms a month ago. I shall answer in exactly the same way as I did then and assure the House that the Royal Ulster Constabulary has adequate and sufficient weapons, and that any request from the Chief Constable and the Police Authority for more weapons or weapons of a different sort will, of course, be sympathetically considered.

  Bill of Rights
  Mr. Kilfedderasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will introduce a Bill of Rights for Ulster based on the constitution of the United States of America.
  Mr. Prior: I recognise the importance that many people in Northern Ireland attach to the protection of human rights there. I have at present no plans to introduce a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, but I keep the whole question of human rights under careful review.
  Mr. Kilfedder: As the question of human rights in Northern Ireland is a sensitive and vital issue, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision and urgently bring forward a Bill of Rights based on the constitution of the United States, which is the greatest multi-religious and multi-racial democracy in the world, and thus guarantee that everyone in the Province, Protestant and Roman Catholic, Republican and Loyalist, would have the same rights and protections as those enjoyed in the United States?
  Mr. Prior: I know that the hon. Gentleman feels very strongly on this issue. I cannot see any prospect of early legislation. These are highly contentious matters in the House. A Bill of Rights for the whole United Kingdom—that is what could well be involved here—is a matter that is more appropriate to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Altonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 25 March.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further meetings later today. This evening I shall attend a reception at Buckingham Palace for winners of The Queen's Award for Export and Technology.
    Mr. Alton: Has the Prime Minister had time to consider the statement that was made at the end of the discussions between her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and other NATO chiefs in America to the effect that the contracts that were to have been awarded to British firms involved in the Trident contract may not now go to British workers? Will she comment on that, in view of the fact that she previously said that the work would go to British workers?
    The Prime Minister: A great many jobs in connection with Trident will come to Britain, particularly at the peak of the programme, when there will be about 20,000 jobs. Of course, the submarines and the warheads will be made here. It was hoped that we would be able to tender for
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    some of the subcontracting work for the main delivery mechanism. We still hope for that, and naturally my right hon. Friend will press hard for it.
    Mr. Kenneth Carlisle: Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great successes of this country during the past two years has been the growing number of large overseas contracts that have been won against strong international competition? Is not great credit due, not only to the successful firms, but to the Government and the Department of Trade, who have co-ordinated so much better the many Government services that help firms; in pursuing these major overseas projects?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon Friend. We have won a large number of major overseas contracts, and that fact owes a great deal to the expertise of ECGD and the Department of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade, and also to the way in which we have added a certain amount of aid to contracts that we could get, for the purpose of securing jobs for workers in this country.
    Mr. Foot: Has the right hon. Lady found time today to send a last minute message to the electors in Hillhead, incorporating for their benefit the latest views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on how living standards fell last year and will continue to fall during the coming year?
    The Prime Minister: I have not sent an extra message to Hillhead.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Very wise.
    The Prime Minister: For the right hon. Gentleman's better and more accurate information, may I point out that living standards are now higher than they were at any time during the period of the Labour Government?
    Mr. Foot: Does the right hon. Lady confirm what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said? Will she now tell us how long these living standards are likely to continue to fall? As this is one of the few matters on which the Cabinet seems able to agree—it seems to reflect what the Leader of the House said a few weeks ago, for which he was rebuked by the right hon. Lady—surely she can send the message to Hillhead, so that it can be quite clear?
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will recollect that living standards fell heavily in 1975, 1976 and 1977. Real personal disposable income figure rose sharply between 1977 and 1980 by a figure wholly unrelated to the growth of productivity and output, during a time when real company incomes fell by over 20 per cent. That is the point to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor referred. One cannot have an increase in personal incomes except by increasing personal output. However, I am happy to send a message to Hillhead to the effect that living standards are now higher than at any time during the period of the Labour Government.
    Mr. John Browne: Does my right hon. Friend accept that recent Government action has opened truly vast opportunities in the videotext and information technology industry, both for employment and for real wealth creation? Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that such great opportunities will not be eroded by Government caution or unnecessary over-regulation?
    The Prime Minister: Many job opportunities are opening up. I congratulate the Department of Industry, and

    1085
    especially my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Information Technology on his vigorous role in opening up those opportunities. There will be new opportunities because of the private satellite that will be launched within three or four years and new chances for cable television. We shall try not to tie up those opportunities with red tape, but we must consider some regulatory matters before final decisions are made on cable television.
    Mr. David Steel: Is the Prime Minister aware that, although she cannot send a message today to the people of Hillhead, the people of Hillhead are likely to send a message to her today? Would she care to add to the education of the people in Hillhead by giving us the latest figure for the tax and the price index compared with when she took office?
    The Prime Minister: I repeat that I am very happy to send a message to Hillhead to the effect that living standards are now higher than at any time under the Labour Government. That includes living standards under the Government of which his candidate was a member. The tax and price index is up. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes it to be lowered, as I do, will he please say what expenditure he will cut or what social service benefits he will cut?
    Mr. Dickens: Will my right hon. Friend take time today to study today's copy of the Labour Herald, which contains an article by Ken Livingstone? Is she aware that the article is an effort to influence the selection of the next Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis in succession to Sir David McNee? Is she further aware that Mr. Livingstone suggested that Sir Kenneth Newman is unsuitable for the job because his colonial army methods used in Northern Ireland would not be suitable for London streets? Does my right hon. Friend accept that this would be a most suitable appointment and just what we need to control problems in London?
    The Prime Minister: I confess that the Labour Herald is not on my daily reading list. Fortunately, appointments to the Metropolitan Police fall to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and the appointment of Sir Kenneth Newman will be suitable in every way.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the Prime Minister take time today to study a poll conducted by the BBC, which shows that 60 per cent. of British people wish to withdraw from the Common Market and that people are aware that it has meant dearer food, fewer jobs and gross interference in our internal affairs? Will she support arrangements to take us out of the Common Market, for which she would have a mandate from the United Kingdom electorate?
    The Prime Minister: I have seen some of the polls to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, but I note with interest that a majority are shown as agreeing that the European Community has increased the political stability of Europe. That is a very important prize.
    Mr. John Townendasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 25 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Townend: Will my right hon. Friend take time today to study the remarkable maiden speech made in another place yesterday by the Lord Chief Justice, in which he said that what will destroy the efficiency of the
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    police more quickly than anything else is the undermining of its authority by people who should know better? Does she agree that the police can act and operate effectively only it they have the consent and the active support of law-abiding citizens?
    The Prime Minister: I certainly read the most excellent speech to which my hon. Friend refers and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree with it. We cannot just leave law and order to the police. We must uphold them in their actions and give not only our consent to what they do but our active support and help when they need it.
    Mr. Joel Barnett: As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in last year's Budget that one of our major problems was that living standards had risen beyond the growth of the economy, why is the Prime Minister now boasting about living standards having risen when growth has declined?
    The Prime Minister: It is a fact that the living standards of ordinary people are higher than they were under the Labour Government. One reason for that, unfortunately, is that there has been a redistribution of incomes away from companies to those who work in the many enterprises. The Government believe that profits must now be rebuilt. That is also part of what my right hon. and learned Friend was saying.
    Mr. Lawrence: While my right hon. Friend is sending messages to Hillhead, will she remind the electors that practically the only matter upon which the leader of the Liberal Party and one or other of the leaders of the Social Democratic Party are agreed is that one solution to the rise in crime and lawlessness in the streets is to legalise cannabis?
    The Prime Minister: It is news to me that they are agreed on anything.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 25 March.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Skinner: Has the Prime Minister further considered the Government White Paper on the industrial injuries scheme issued a few months ago? Is she satisfied with the launching of further attacks upon the crippled in our society by withdrawing disablement benefit from all those beneficiaries under 10 per cent., stopping the hospital treatment allowance, removing special hardship payments for those who receive £19·32 a week after they have retired and removing industrial death benefit? Does the Prime Minister take a special delight in launching attacks on those who have difficulty in fighting back?
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has forgotten the excellent record of the Government in helping many of the disabled. I was asked especially about the industrial injuries scheme. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that in this Budget we removed tax on the mobility allowance, which has not been done by any other Government, and the last Budget lowered the tax for the blind?
    Mr. Myles: Will my right hon. Friend consider the amount of aid that has been given to the Western Isles by

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    the EEC, and will she advise the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) that it is about time that he had the courtesy to say "Thank you"?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but he must not expect the impossible.
    Mr. Flannery: Will the Prime Minister turn her mind once again to the 3 million unemployed and to the fact that there will shortly be a much greater number than 3 million? How can she stand before the House with such bland effrontery and say that living standards are increasing when everyone in the country knows that millions are unemployed, millions are on social security and the economy is failing all the way through?
    The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Gentleman is saying that if we want an even higher standard of living—and most people do—we more jobs—and most people do—we shall not get it by remarks like that, but by starting up enterprise that can sell goods and services that other people will buy.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask whether, in the course of her busy day, my right hon. Friend has seen the report in today's Daily Mail to the effect that those who advertised for a Christian doctor have been banned from doing so by the race relations authorities? In view of the close relationship between Christianity and medicine, which has existed for so long in Britain, and the fact that we are a Christian country, should she not put a stop to that sort of nonsense?
    The Prime Minister: May I make it perfectly clear that I very much share the sentiment that my hon. Friend has expressed about that advertisement. May I make it equally clear that discrimination on the grounds of religious belief is not unlawful in Britain.
    Later—
    Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: I wish to raise a point of order arising out of today's Question Time. I understand that it is not in order to use a language that is strange to Members of the House without at the same time providing a translation. Question No. 15 to the Secretary of State for Southern Ireland referred to something called a "Taoiseach". That question was answered, together with a number of others referring to the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland. Members of the House do not refer to "Le Premier Ministre" or "Il Presidente" or the "Bundeskanzler" or the "Shugaban Gwamnati" when referring to the heads of Government of France, Italy, Germany or Nigeria. How can it be in order to use strange language when referring to the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman gave me fair notice that he would raise this matter today. He is learned in the law and he is also learned and experienced in the practice of this House. He knows that the use of the word "Taoiseach" has been a custom here for several years and he has therefore left his point of order a little late. I suggest that we continue as we have done.

Business of the House
3.30 pm
Mr. Michael Foot: Will the Leader of the House state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Francis Pym): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 29 MARCH—There will be a debate on the United Kingdom Trident programme, Cmnd. 8517.
Motions on the Wool Textile Industry (Amendment) Orders.
TUESDAY 30 MARCH—Remaining stages of the Fire Service College Board (Abolition) Bill [Lords] and of the Stock Transfer Bill.
Motion on the Gas Levy Rate Order.
Motions relating to the National Health Service (Dental and Optical Charges) Amendment Regulations and on the Local Government (Direct Labour Organisations) (Competition) Amendment Regulations for England and Wales and also for Scotland.
WEDNESDAY 31 MARCH AND THURSDAY 1 APRIL—Remaining stages of the Oil and Gas (Enterprise) Bill.
FRIDAY 2 APRIL—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 5 APRIL—Remaining stages of the Local Government Finance (No. 2) Bill.
The House will wish to know that it will be proposed that the House should rise for the Easter Adjournment on Thursday 8 April until Monday 19 April.
Mr. Foot: May I put three matters to the right hon. Gentleman? First, as I asked him last week, has he now considered the proposition that there should be a separate debate on the public expenditure White Paper? We believe that there is a strong case for having that debate before we begin the work on the Finance Bill.
Secondly, has the right hon. Gentleman followed up the request that I made to him to ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to publish the report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Schools? The longer there is no publication the greater grows the suspicion that the Government are seeking to suppress the matter. The report is long overdue and will be one of the first opportunities to assess the impact which Government cuts are having on schools. Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman can assure us that the Secretary of State will make a statement on the matter next week, or at any rate before the Easter recess.
Finally, we are to have a statement in a few minutes about what the Government have decided regarding the Vale of Belvoir. Since this is such an important matter, which involves the whole question of the "Plan for Coal", and whether the Government will stand by the agreements that were made under the "Plan for Coal", we will expect an early debate on that subject as well.
Mr. Pym: Yes, there will be a separate debate on the public expenditure White Paper. The Second Reading of the Finance Bill may—I put it no more strongly than that—come first. However, I do not envisage it being any later than that.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has made it clear on several occasions that he intends to publish the report on education as soon as it is ready. That remains the position. He last
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said that, I think, on 16 March. I understand that the report is not quite complete and has therefore not yet been submitted to him. His intention is to publish it, but I cannot say when today because that is not known.
Regarding the right hon. Gentleman's third point, I accept that the subject that will be raised in a statement this afternoon is of great importance and it is clearly an appropriate subject for a debate. On an earlier occasion, the Leader of the Opposition asked me for a debate on Trident before the statement had been made. I am glad to say that I was able to arrange a debate on that subject very quickly after the statement. I cannot give a date for a debate on the Vale of Belvoir, but I note his representations and can only agree that it is an important matter.
Mr. Harry Greenway: Has my right hon. Friend had time to see early-day motion No. 316 on school discipline?
[That this House expresses grave concern at the implications of the European Court's ruling on corporal punishment; notes that the decision would appear to question the British view that the teacher is in loco parentis; and requests Her Majesty's Government to take such steps as are necessary to ensure: (a) that the teacher's existing position is maintained and (b) that methods of enforcing discipline should be decided within a school itself.]
That has now attracted the support of 102 hon. Members. In view of the fundamental importance of sound school discipline to law and order in Britain, will he please do what he can to arrange an early debate on that motion?
Mr. Pym: I share the sentiments expressed in that motion, but I must say that I cannot find Government time for a debate on the subject in the near future.
Mr. Jack Ashley: Now that the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration has said that there should be an independent investigation into the complaints of former prisoners of war who lost pay during their imprisonment, can we have a statement on that next week?
Mr. Pym: I do not think that will be possible next week. I will consider with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State whether it will be possible at a later stage.
Mr. David Crouch: Will my right hon. Friend assure me that we will not be getting a statement about any increase in the weight of lorries on our roads next week, as I am becoming increasingly worried that the CBI might put some pressure on me regarding that matter?
Mr. Pym: Not next week.
Mr. Leo Abse: Why is the statement on the report and the recommendations made by Lord Diplock of the security commission being so long delayed when the report has been in the Prime Minister's hands for many months? It was said that a statement would be made six weeks or more ago. Since the refusal so far to make a statement arouses suspicions that another truncated report will eventually be published, can we have a statement from the Prime Minister next week?
Mr. Pym: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's suspicions are not well founded, but I will make further inquiries.
Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: In view of the Government's recent statement on the future role of cable in broadcasting, and the decision to allow the BBC to broadcast by satellite, will my right hon. Friend agree to arrange a debate at some time between the Easter and Whitsum recesses?
Mr. Pym: That is a subject which I think the House will wish to debate urgently. I would not like to promise exactly when, but I hope it will be fairly soon.
Miss Joan Maynard: May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 328 which has the support of more than 100 Members?
[That this House condemns Bernard Matthews, the poultry tycoon, and his 18th century attitude to his workers, many of whom are on family income supplement, rent rebates and rate rebates; and fully supports his workers who are on official strike in Suffolk and Norfolk, and also their union, the National Union of Agricultural and Allied Workers in the struggle they are conducting for decent living wages, particularly as these workers doubled production in the last 12 months.]
That motion supports members of my union who are taking industrial action against Bernard Matthews in order to win a decent wage, having doubled production in the last 12 months.
May I remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House that these rural workers have been out on strike for six weeks? That shows their desperation. They have been trying to live on starvation wages of just over £50 a week. Yesterday, Bernard Matthews—the Freddie Laker of the poultry industry—was wining and dining at the Savoy hotel. He can afford a lunch there, but he cannot afford to pay our members a decent wage. Is it not high time that the House debated that important matter, or, at least, we had a statement from the Minister of Agriculture?
Mr. Pym: The House recognises what a difficult dispute this is. It is important, but I do not think that a debate on the subject would help a settlement of the dispute, which everybody wants. It certainly cannot be arranged in the foreseeable future.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Will my right hon. Friend try to find time next week or shortly thereafter for a debate on the operation of the British banking system which is making a considerable profit as a result of high interest rates? In particular, I refer to the Midland Bank which foreclosed on Stone-Platt Industries in the North-West and elsewhere in Britain. It employs more than 7,000 people whose jobs are now in jeopardy. That includes more than 400 at Ernest Scragg and Sons Ltd. in my constituency. The receiver decided to make more than half the work force at Ernest Scragg redundant while meaningful discussions are taking place with a potential purchaser. Is that not a subject which the House should debate?
Mr. Pym: I regret to say that I cannot provide a separate day to debate that subject. My hon. Friend may find an opportunity to raise it. There are other opportunities, such as during the debate on certain parts of the Finance Bill, when speeches on that general subject would be in order. I am sorry that I cannot go further than that.
Mr. Bob Cryer: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement next week on the ruthless dismissal of 26 loyal film workers from the Central Office of Information, whose films have won prizes at festivals all over the world? They have promoted British industry abroad and their films have received praise from small, medium-sized and large firms. Will he also arrange for a statement to be made explaining why the Minister for the Civil Service failed to allow Members of Parliament to visit the unit or to provide the film-makers with the requisite information or the reasons for their dismissal. That is scant thanks for loyal years of service for the Government to put them on the dole on 31 March. The Association of Cinematograph and Television Technicians is now blacking all Government work and will continue to do so until something is done.
Mr. Pym: I note the hon. Gentleman's request, but that would not be a suitable subject for a statement next week.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: Is my right hon. Friend aware that of the 52 questions on the Order Paper today addressed to the Prime Minister, 49 have been couched in identical terms? Will my right hon. Friend take steps to refer the whole issue of Prime Minister's questions to the Procedure Committee?
Mr. Pym: There is some demand in the House for that, but at present it is by no means widespread. The Procedure Committee, or a Select Committee on Procedure, has considered the subject several times and will no doubt do so again. It has been found that it is difficult to establish a method that is not open to various abuses or misuses. Therefore, it is not an easy problem to resolve. I accept that it is curious to see so many similar questions on the Order Paper. In recent years, the House has found that that is one way in which hon. Members can raise almost any question with the Prime Minister. However, it is a matter of opinion whether that is the best or most appropriate use of Prime Minister's Question Time. I shall listen to any views put to me on that subject.
Mr. David Winnick: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we, at least, are pleased that the Government have climbed down about the use of Westminster Hall for President Reagan's address? In future, will the Government not take the consent of the House for granted?
Mr. Pym: The hon. Gentleman has misrepresented the position. I am glad that it has been arranged for the President to make a speech in the Royal Gallery. That arrangement suits both Houses of Parliament and is wholly appropriate. There was an informal suggestion at one stage that other possibilities could be considered, but the matter is now settled.
Mr. Keith Speed: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the unsatisfactory buck-passing between the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office about the Falkland Islands, the Antarctic and HMS "Endurance". May we have a debate on that subject before HMS "Endurance" is finally paid off and we relinquish control over that most important part of the South Atlantic?
Mr. Pym: There will be the usual debates on defence, the White Paper and the Services a considerable time before there is any question of a different future for HMS "Endurance". I can give that assurance.
Mr. Stanley Cohen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that statements were made this morning to the media to the effect that there will be a reduction of 3,000 British Rail jobs for white collar workers? Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity to discuss the consequences of, and the reasons for, that decision?
Mr. Pym: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern, but I cannot find a special occasion in Government time to debate that issue.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: Will my right hon. Friend arrange for the Attorney-General to make a statement on what legal restraints apply to the publication of pamphlets, information or accusations in the press that are deliberately designed to undermine public officials in the course of their duties? In that connection, will he look at the appalling article published by Ken Livingstone in today's issue of Labour Herald? It makes the most crazy and unrestrained accusations about what will happen in London when the new chief constable takes office, before he has even taken the job?
Mr. Pym: I shall make those representations to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. Indeed, perhaps my hon. Friend has already done so. However, I must confess that I am not a regular reader of Labour Herald.
Mr. Robert Parry: Has the Leader of the House seen early-day motion 366 dealing with unemployment in the construction industry? [That this House, appalled at the latest published unemployment figures in the construction industry in the United Kingdom, England and Wales, 25·1 per cent., Scotland 25·4 per cent. and Northern Ireland 47·5 per cent., calls upon Her Majesty's Government to embark on a massive programme of public works, a crash house building drive and the reconstruction of the inner city areas, as outlined by the Labour Party and the Trades Union Congress.]
It has now been supported by 135 Opposition Members.
Given the critical state of the industry and the many important points that are made in the motion, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange an early debate on that subject? Failing that, will he ask his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment to get on his bike and cycle to Liverpool to see the situation at first hand?
Mr. Pym: All quarters of the House recognise the importance of the construction industry. In his Budget speech, my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made announcements helpful to the industry. However, the subject was germane to the Budget debate and was raised then. Therefore, I cannot provide another occasion to debate it all over again.
Mr. Gerry Neale: Would it not greatly assist all right hon. and hon. Members in their parliamentary duties if, as part of the Information Technology Year, a radio paging device linked to the Division bell system was made available to them? Will he join his hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Information Technology in investigating the British-made products on the market, which could be made available to individual hon. Members?
Mr. Pym: I am not sure that every hon. Member would like to have one of those devices. However, I should be glad to pursue that idea with my hon. Friend the Minister. If there seems to be merit in it, I could pursue it further with the authorities in the House. However, I am not sure that such a device would be well received in all quarters.
Mr. Frank Hooley: When will the Leader of the House lay before the House proposals to implement the recommendations of the Procedure Committee relating to Supply?
Mr. Pym: I have no date in mind for the near future, but I have taken note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. John Farr: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the situation of HMS "Endurance" and treat it more seriously? There is a real possibility that several Conservative Members will not be able to support the Government in the debate on defence if there is no satisfactory solution.
Mr. Pym: I did take seriously the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Speed). I gave a factual answer to his question whether a debate could be held before the future of HMS "Endurance" came into question. A debate will be possible on the basis I described. I fully appreciate the concern in the House about events in the South Atlantic and I assure my hon. Friend that the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for Defence have that very much in mind. Obviously, it is a very important issue.

References to Members
Mr. David Crouch: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether it has been brought to your notice that in the past few days and weeks there has been an increasing tendency in the Chamber for references to be made to hon. Members other than by their constituencies. The tendency to refer to hon. Members and their speeches by name has been growing, has been evident in the past few days and was particularly evident last night. Although it is sometimes convenient to refer to a press report written by "Mr. So-and-So" or "Mrs. So-and-So" instead of referring to the hon. Member involved by his constituency, I wonder whether you think that we should check that tendency.
Mr. Speaker: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I have not heard such references when I have been in the Chair, but I shall gladly look into the matter. We must follow the traditional custom of addressing each other by our constituencies.

Vale of Belvoir
3.49 pm
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement setting out my decision on the National Coal Board's planning applications to exploit what has become known as the Vale of Belvoir coalfield.
In August 1978, the board submitted a planning application to Melton borough council for permission to work that part of the coalfield which lies under Leicestershire, to construct three mines at Hose, Saltby and Asfordby, and to tip spoil adjacent to the three sites. At the same time, applications were made to Rushcliffe borough council and South Kesteven district council for permission to work those parts of the coalfield which lie under Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire respectively. These applications were called in by my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), in January 1979.
A public local inquiry was conducted on my behalf by Mr. Michael Mann, QC, assisted by two assessors. I should like to record my gratitude to Mr. Mann and his two colleagues for the way they conducted the inquiry and for the report, a copy of which I have placed in the Library together with a copy of my decision letter, which is being issued today.
The inspector recommended that planning permission should be granted for the development of the coalfield and the construction of all three mines, but that permission should be refused for the proposed spoil tips at Hose and Saltby.
I have carefully considered all the issues in the inspector's report. I agree with the inspector that the board's proposals for tipping at Hose and Saltby are unacceptable as they stand, but in addition I am concerned about tipping at Asfordby because of its impact on agriculture. I have concluded that before local tipping at any of the three sites could be contemplated the possibility of other methods of spoil disposal should be further examined.
I have also concluded that the development of a mine complex at the proposed Hose site is environmentally unacceptable. Mine buildings here on the scale proposed would dominate a wide area, and would be alien to the vale.
The inspector concluded that it was somewhat more likely than not that there will be a need to supplement indigenous deep-mine capacity at about the time the Belvoir coalfield could become fully operational, but he felt unable to refine his opinion by suggesting the year in which the need would arise or the exact extent of that need. I accept that the coal will be needed in the future, but I have had to weigh the degree of need demonstrated with the adverse environmental effects to which I have already referred.
I have also considered whether the development of this coalfield can be justified on the grounds of the employment opportunities that it would create for mineworkers displaced by colliery closures in the northwest Leicestershire and south Nottinghamshire areas. I have concluded that the very important benefits which would accrue from the provision of such employment

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should be considered in the light of any fresh applications that the board may wish to make and in a time scale compatible with the employment requirements.
I have concluded that the need and employment arguments are not incompatible with the need to seek an alternative approach to the mining of this coalfield which gives more weight to the environmental objections, and I have therefore refused planning permission for the development of the Vale of Belvoir coalfield as set out in the present planning applications. This decision should not be seen as in any way going against Government policy that the coal industry has an essential and increasing part to play in meeting this country's future needs for energy provided that it is competitive and based on efficient high productivity capacity. I accept that the board might wish to submit new planning applications setting out revised proposals to exploit this massive national resource.
However, before doing so, I consider that the board should re-examine how the coalfield can be worked to minimise environmental disturbance and how the colliery waste can be disposed of other than by local surface tipping. I recognise that this second point has ramifications going beyond the board's interests, and I shall therefore be writing shortly to those principally concerned with a view to inviting discussions on how the spoil disposal problem can best be overcome. It is very important that these discussions should be pursued with vigour and brought to a conclusion as soon as possible. It is a matter for the board as to when new planning applications are submitted, and, provided the major environmental objections can be overcome, I would not anticipate that the procedures for handling these would need to be unduly prolonged.
There is one other point to which I should like to refer. The board submitted a single application covering all the underground coal extraction in Leicestershire, together with the three mine complexes and the three tips, and it has thus opted to stand or fall on a strategy of developing the coalfield as one project. I take the view that, in these circumstances, the granting of a permission for only part of the development would be in effect granting a permission for development which is significantly different in kind from the proposal which was the subject of this application. Had it not been for this, and had there been acceptable proposals for spoil disposal, I would have been minded to grant planning permission for mines at Asfordby and Saltby.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement that we have just heard is a lamentable confession of vacillation and delay? As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, we shall want to debate the issue as soon as possible. Is it not a fact that it is three and a half years since the planning applications were submitted, nearly two years since the public inquiry ended and 15 months since the right hon. Gentleman received the inspector's report? How, in the light of that time scale, can he have the nerve to invite others to conduct discussions with vigour and bring them to a conclusion as soon as possible?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the applications were supported at the public inquiry by the Department of Energy and the European Commission, that both
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Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire county councils now support them, and that, as he has acknowledged, his inspector recommended in favour of them? Is it not a fact, as the leader of the Conservative Members of the European Assembly has said, that the development is vital to meet EEC energy needs? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that without the Belvoir development the "Plan for Coal", on which our mining industry depends, will have a large hole blasted through it? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that before the end of the decade more than 8,000 jobs in the mining industry will be lost through the exhaustion of pits in Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire, and that the development that he has rejected could replace nearly 4,000 of those jobs?
If the right hon. Gentleman is concerned about the environment, why has he gone to such lengths to protect a site which he says in his decision letter is important in regional terms, although not outstanding in national terms, while not lifting a finger to save major national sites of special scientific interest which are now being wrecked, such as West Sedgemoor, Romney Marshes and, worst of all, the internationally important site of Havergate Marshes, which is now awaiting destruction and is causing international concern?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as a result of his statement today further delays are inevitable? It will take the National Coal Board another year to put together a fresh application. Will he give some assurances about the future time scale for a new inquiry and for a decision? Will that decision give the green light that is needed?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—[Interruption.] These are important matters involving jobs and Britain's future. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his environmental reasons for rejecting the applications are meagre and inconsistent and that his rejection is damaging to jobs, to coal, to the electricity supply industry and to Britain's industrial future?
Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Gentleman should perhaps be careful before he challenges the Government on their attitude towards SSSIs. This is the first Government to do anything about SSSIs since the relevant legislation was put on the statute book in 1948. If he is to dismiss so lightly the environmental case for the preservation of the Vale of Belvoir, he will want to bear in mind the inspector's references to land of a character normally associated with a national park. That should be of as much concern to the right hon. Gentleman as shadow Secretary of State for the Environment as it is to me.
The need for a debate has been raised with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, and it is for him to make a decision. This has been a difficult and complex decision and I have looked back to see what my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), did in matters perhaps less complex than the one with which I have had to deal. It took the right hon. Gentleman rather longer to deal with the Liverpool Street station decision, and almost as long to deal with the Selby decision. I cannot accept that I have taken an unwarrantably long time, but I accept at once that I have taken a very full time in reaching a decision.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that, although the inspector recommended that there should be mines in each of the three sites and that there should be no tipping at Hose and Saltby, he did not deal with the disposal of the

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waste. He left that as one of the conclusions to be reached later. It seemed right that this was a matter to be resolved while the decisions were still to be made.
We then move on to perhaps the most important element of the questions asked by the right hon. Gentleman—what happens in the next stage? The House will remember that I said that I accepted that the coalfield in North-East Leicester would be developed. I believe that we should move forward in the light of all the discussions and the public ventilation of the matters that there has been.
To ensure that we move forward as rapidly as possible I have made it clear that I intend to approach the principal parties to this matter, making officials in my Department available to ensure that no time is wasted. I am of the view that the employment opportunities—which are obviously of great concern to everybody—can be met within the time scale of the new possibilities that I am outlining to the House today.
I understand, of course, that it is of great concern to the people directly involved that that should be the case. The precise timing is not within my remit. It must depend upon the reaction of the National Coal Board. The board, which must now decide which way to go, will read in my statement my view that this coalfield should be developed and will therefore welcome the fact that I am to make officials from my Department available to help the parties concerned overcome some of the obstacles.
Mr. Michael Latham: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while there will be considerable relief in my constituency following his statement, there will also be some disappointment over the fact that the matter is still not finally settled, because of the reluctance of the National Coal Board to submit three separate planning applications, which it specifically refused to do? Does my right hon. Friend realise that the broad hint that he has given to the House, that Hose should be spared on environmental grounds, but that Saltby and Asfordby might be the subject of fresh applications by the board, with the strictest possible environmental conditions, might prove the basis for an honourable and acceptable compromise on one of the most difficult planning decisions since the war?
Mr. Heseltine: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention. No one has shown more concern about these matters than he has. I was faced with one application, as my hon. Friend said. took legal advice on whether I could separate the components of that application and reach different judgments. I was advised that it would not be proper or advisable for me to do so, and therefore I have had to take a general view. Within that general view I have tried to give the clearest indication that I am able, within my statutory responsibility, about the future use of this coalfield. The House will remember that I specifically said at the end of my statement that, in respect of Asfordby and Saltby, if tipping arrangements could have been dealt with I should have been minded to accept those as mines in the future.
Mr. David Steel: May I ask the Secretary of State to elaborate on his hint that two mines might be given the go-ahead in the future? Does this mean that we shall have to go through the whole
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planning procedure again from scratch? If not, will he assist the House by giving us more detail on how that might be short-circuited?
May I also ask the right hon. Gentleman what quantity of the total coal resources available can be mined from these two mines, as distinct from the three for which application was made?
Where does the Department of Energy stand on this issue? If there is a further hold-up in the development of the exploration of coal reserves, the assumption must be that there will be greater dependence on the development of nuclear power, with the environmental problems that that will create.
Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Member raises a number of important points. I cannot judge what procedures will be necessary in advance of the application being submitted, but there is a range of options. The board will decide what applications to put in. It will be for me to decide whether I wish to call in those applications. I shall have to judge that in the light of the nature of the applications, whether I feel that new issues have to be considered and the number of people wishing to object.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the proportion of coal that could be extracted from those two mines. That is a matter to which the board will wish to address its mind, but it is not just those two mines that might be the means of exploiting the coal resources. The right hon. Gentleman will be familiar with the Cotgrave pit, which is on the fringe of this coalfield, and there may be a number of other applications or procedures which the board will wish to ventilate. That must be for the board. The only point that I put to the House is that if the board is minded to go forward by considering proposals again—subject to the points I have made today—that are broadly those which have already been examined, the procedures may not be so drawn out as before. I cannot judge that until l see the way things unfold.
Mr. J. D. Concannon: I represent one of the finest areas in Nottinghamshire, mainly Sherwood Forest and the Dukeries. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that this area has probably one of the most productive and profitable coalfields not only in this country but in Europe. There is a continuity problem, as some of this area, especially in South Nottinghamshire, will be running out of coal in the near future. It is strange to hear the Secretary of State say that it is possible to have coalmines but that we must not tip the muck anywhere in Leicestershire. The right hon. Gentleman must know that coalmines have been closed, not because they have been uneconomic, but because it has not been possible to find tipping space. Where does the Secretary of State expect the board to tip the rubbish that it will get out of the coalmines?
Mr. Heseltine: The right hon. Member has raised two points. One related to his concern for the general quality of the environment surrounding the land traditionally associated with coal extraction. Many people in the area around the Vale of Belvoir, including large numbers of miners and their families—represented by many of the environmental groups at the public inquiry—treasure the access to magnificent countryside there and would greatly regret the intrusion of a tip 2 miles long and buildings 17 to 19 storeys high, because that would prejudice that environment for a certain time.

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I have had to bear those facts in mind. I have had to ask whether the alternative means of disposing of the soil have been fully considered. There are two such examples that I put before the House. First, it has been suggested that the soil should be moved to Bedfordshire where there are empty brick-clay pits which are now in need of reclamation. If there were a way—and I cannot know whether there is—of reclaiming that derelict land in Bedfordshire at the same time as using this spoil, it would be a constructive way forward.
Another point that should be carefully considered—although I understand that there are difficulties which we must finally resolve—is the one to which the inspector referred—the need for research into back stowage. I understand the difficulties, but I must be satisfied that this matter has been fully considered before a decision is reached.
Mr. Stephen Hastings: While making it clear to my right hon. Friend that slag heaps in Biggleswade or my constituency will be no more welcome than they would be anywhere else, may I ask whether he recognises that his decision will come as a considerable relief to the many and mounting number of people who are deeply disturbed at the rate of disappearance of farmland? From their reaction, it is clear that the Opposition do not care about it.
Mr. Concannon: We have lived with it for years.
Mr. Hastings: Is it not fair to say that the board has been among the principal predators in this direction and that the time has come for it to think again about its technology? Can my right hon. Friend say anything more about what he called the alternative approach? Will new technology be involved in the extraction or combustion? I am sure that the House will be interested to hear about that.
Mr. Heseltine: I understand my hon. Friend's concern about the disappearance of agricultural land. This is one of the matters that has led me to the judgment that I have taken on Asfordby, where we are dealing with class 1 agricultural land. I believe that the National Coal Board has a remarkable record in reclaiming many of its tips. The board's endeavours, supported by Governments of all parties, have earned great praise from the community at large.
Mr. Frank Haynes: Is the Secretary of State aware that his statement will be received with a sense of shock back in the coalfields? Those living in the coalfields, and myself in particular, feel that it is an example of party dogma. If the Duke of Rutland had been receiving the proceeds from coal coming out of the shafts, the pits would have been developed. Will the Secretary of State come clean? It is obvious that his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has not provided him with an opportunity to see what pit working is all about and what has been happening for many years over the reclamation of pit tips. There are not the eyesores to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. Why does the Secretary of State not stop sitting around the Cabinet table talking of issues about which he knows nothing?
Mr. Heseltine: I understand how deeply people feel on these matters. I spent a considerable part of last week in
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West Yorkshire, where the Labour leader of the West Yorkshire metropolitan county council showed me the problems of dereliction arising from mining. I understand that the policies of both parties is to eradicate such dereliction. It would be wrong to pretend that the desire to try to protect the environment while exploiting the natural resource of coal is a desire that is restricted to any one party. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, on mature reflection, will realise that my decision will not come as a shock in the coalfields. I have said that the North-East Leicestershire coalfield will be developed. The only issue is how we deal with the complex problem of spoil disposal.
Mr. Stephen Dorrell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the miners of North-West Leicestershire will welcome his statement that he will put the resources of the Department at the disposal of the NCB to prepare a scheme for mining the Vale of Bevoir that will resolve the difficult conflicts that exist in the area? Can he assure me that he will stress to the officials of his Department the urgency of the situation for those miners working in pits with less than 10 years' life left in them?
Mr. Heseltine: I am sure that large numbers of miners will recognise that I am trying to secure for them the job opportunities that this resource presents, while at the same time protecting the environment, which is a matter of as much concern to them as it is to me. My hon. Friend is right. I am enabling officials of my Department to work alongside those who have eventually to put forward proposals. This must be an earnest of my determination that there should be no undue delay.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: On the issue of stowing the rock that comes out of the pits, will the right hon. Gentleman accept that one reason for moving away from the packing system many years ago to the system that operates in most coalfields now was to achieve greater efficiency? That explains why much of the stone now comes up the pit notwithstanding the fact that many new developments have taken place to try to get rid of it. Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the National Coal Board has got rid of tips where pits have been closed in the course of the past 20 years and that it has also got rid of many of the eyesores that existed in private enterprise days?
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the disfigurement of the skyline and the environment by the development of shafts and drift mines. Will he remind his colleagues in the Cabinet that, when it comes to allowing the Americans to instal cruise missiles sites, there seems to be a completely different attitude towards disfigurement of the environment and the landscape?
Mr. Heseltine: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman should seek to introduce wholly irrelevant and rather extreme Left-wing views into the issue. I accept his view that the problems of back stowage exist. I believe that it is incumbent on me, as Secretary of State for the Environment, to be sure that they are fully examined before reaching a decision.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be aware that my constituents in Grantham will want to be sure that any future application in regard to Saltby is given careful and detailed consideration and is not passed over lightly. Will my right

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hon. Friend consider giving an undertaking that he will call in any future application that may be made in regard to Saltby?
Mr. Heseltine: I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I cannot give him the assurance that he seeks. Until I see the application and the issues involved, it would be wrong for me to prejudge the issues.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call those hon. Members who have been rising, before moving on to our next business.
Mr. Allen McKay: Does the Minister realise that his statement will cause concern not only in the coalfields that he has mentioned, but throughout the coal industry? It means a change of emphasis and a shift in direction by the Government over the future energy supplies of this country. Will he confirm that by the time the planning applications, to which there will be objections, have been resolved, about 8,000 men will be out of work?
Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the repercussions will affect not only collieries but manufacturers of mining machinery, who had been looking for orders? Is he aware that hundreds of men employed in the manufacture of mining machinery will be thrown out of work? Is he aware also that there are facilities available for the disposal of dirt in Bedfordshire, but that the missing element is money? Will he say whether the money will be provided? Will he take the opportunity to go underground to see for himself why back stowing is impossible in retreat mining?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman will know that the inspector who conducted the inquiry recommended that there should be more research into back stowing. It would seem to me that, as he sat through the inquiry and received all the evidence, I had to take note of that recommendation. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not repeat outside the House the statements that he has made in the Chamber. They are not based on any fact. There is no change of emphasis. I have made clear my views that this coalfield is to be developed. There is no justification for the unemployment forecasts that the hon. Gentleman has made. They are conjured out of the air.
Mr. John Farr: I assure my right hon. Friend that his statement will be widely welcomed in the district, not because anyone is anti-coal mining, but because this area, not least the Vale of Belvoir, is a particularly valuable and important agricultural asset. Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that before the vale is mined, as eventually may be the case, full environmental safeguards will be employed to make sure that damage to the environment is as small as possible?
Mr. Heseltine: I know of my hon. Friend's concern. I hope that when he studies the decision letter that I have issued today he will find that I have taken into account the environmental considerations to which he attaches great importance, as I do. I have to balance that with the need to consider the job opportunities and the development of this important national asset.
Mr. Alex Eadie: Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may tell the House, his announcement of refusal is a prescription for delay and also a prescription
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for increasing substantially the cost of coal. The right hon. Gentleman talked of matters being commensurate with cost. He referred to the new application being timed and the development being timed commensurate with the time scale of likely employment. I wonder how well the right hon. Gentleman has been advised. Does he not recognise the long lead times involved in mining development? People in this area cannot wait years for the development to go ahead. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman 'will consult the Department of Energy which will advise him that the project needs to go ahead now. Is he aware that his announcement is a national scandal?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman has not listened carefully to what I said. I intend shortly to write to the people who are most immediately involved. There is no way in which I can control the time that it takes the National Coal Board to submit its applications. It is for the board to initiate any application. It is the board that has to carry out the extraction policies. If the matter comes to me, I shall respond to the board as quickly as possible thereafter.
Mr. Tim Eggar: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his announcement that two mines may be permitted to go ahead will be welcomed by all of us on this side of the House who are committed to the long-term future of the coal industry? Should the NCB not come up with environmentally acceptable proposals, will my right hon. Friend consider contacting other private sector entities, which might be able to come up with such proposals?
Mr. Heseltine: I have to make it clear to my hon. Friend that it is not a matter for me, as the planning authority, to contact anybody to initiate applications. The question of who extracts coal is established Government policy. It would be for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy to announce any changes, of which I am currently not aware.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his sad, solemn facial expression will not get across to the miners? Does he agree that he is under pressure from his hon. and right hon. Friends not to go ahead with this important part of the coal mining industry? How does he know that the Vale of Belvoir will not have the same opportunity as Selby to keep in dirt? Has he considered sending the dirt to the shafts which have been left at the claypits in Bedfordshire and similar areas? Does he realise that if he carries on like this the pits in Leceistershire will close and men 'will be out of work because they cannot develop this very important seam?
Mr. Heseltine: That must be the fifth time that that question has been asked, and I have answered it every time. The hon. Gentleman is trying to make points that have no basis in the terms of the decision that I have announced today.
Mr. Peter Hardy: The House will have noted the Secretary of State's concern for the environment. May we hope that it will be made tangible by support for those agencies that are charged with public concern for environmental matters? Will he make it clear to the House that the application submitted by the NCB revealed more concern for environmental protection in mining operations than has ever previously been seen?

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Will he accept that it is an essential operation? Given his concern for the environment, may we take it that the people of the Yorkshire coalfields will receive the same degree of consideration as those in the Dukedom of Belvoir?
Mr. Heseltine: The hon. Gentleman will know that I have increased the amount of derelict land grant for next year to a record sum. My commitment is in advance of anything that his Government ever did.
One has to balance all considerations. I believe that the environmental issues surrounding the extraction of coal can be solved, and it is important to ensure that every effort is made to do so. I believe that there are certain matters still to be explored. Nobody can question my determination to explore them once they realise that I am to make available officials in my Department to have active discussions with those responsible for extracting coal.

Middle East
Mr. Ernie Ross: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the serious threat to peace in the Middle East."
The specific instance is the dismissal by the Israeli military authorities of the democratically elected mayors of Nablus, Bassam Shakaa, and Karim Khalaf of Ramallah. I suggest that the House should adjourn to discuss the matter. Allied to that is the shooting yesterday of an unarmed, 17-year-old Palestinian by an Israeli settler.
I suggest that is a further reason why the House should give me leave to move the Adjournment. The continual dismissal of democratically elected mayors must give rise to serious concern about the total breakdown of the civilian administration in the occupied territories. The Israeli decision is a clear breach of article 54 of the Geneva convention concerning the power of occupying forces. Television has demonstrated, and the House has witnessed, armed Israeli civilians firing on crowds of Arab youngsters and elderly women. It must pose a serious threat to peace in the Middle East if the oppressed Palestinian people seek to defend themselves. The decision of about 30 Arab policemen in Jerusalem to resign is a further example of the breakdown of the civilian administration of the West Bank. That breakdown could as easily lead to civil war.
The House last specifically debated the Middle East on Friday 9 March 1979, although the matter has arisen since during various foreign affairs debates. There was to be a debate on 22 December 1981 but that debate did not take place.
The House knows that we decided to participate in the Sinai peacekeeping force. I believe that it is important that the House should have a guarantee of the safety of the individuals in that peacekeeping force.
The other matter that should concern this House as a matter of urgency is the fact that the Foreign Secretary will visit Israel on Wednesday. Before that visit takes place I believe that the House should have the opportunity to express its abhorrence and concern at the way the Israeli authorities carry out their civilian-occupying administration on the West Bank.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman gave me notice before 12 o'clock this morning that he would seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the serious threat to peace in the Middle East."
He submitted in his letter the reasons he has outlined to the House in moving this motion.
He knows, and the House knows, that under Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take into account the several factors set out in that Order but to give no reasons for my decision. I have listened with care to the hon. Gentleman, but I must rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of that Standing Order, and therefore I cannot submit his application to the House.

Orders of the Day
  SUPPLY
  [16TH ALLOTTED DAY]—considered

  Law and Order
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooke.]
  Mr. Speaker: During the Adjournment debate that is about to begin I am satisfied that it is appropriate that the occupants of the Chair should exercise the power given to them under Standing Order No. 16 to permit incidental reference to legislative action, and that this power should he reasonably liberally interpreted. I am, however, aware that the Criminal Justice Bill is currently under consideration in Standing Committee A. While, therefore, I would not rule out a general discussion on the particular matters with which that Bill is concerned in so far as they are relevant to the need for effective policing and the consequent reduction in crime, I should most strongly deprecate any attempt to comment in detail on the actual proceedings of the Standing Committee.
  4.30 pm
  Mr. Roy Hattersley: The facts that underlie today's debate and that prompted the Opposition to devote a Supply day to the subject of "effective policing and the consequent reduction in crime" are indisputable and I believe undisputed. Since 1979 the number of serious crimes committed in this country has increased year by year. After the reduction in crime recorded and welcomed in 1977 and 1978 the figures rose from 557,000 cases in 1979 to 584,000 in 1980 and 631,000 in 1981. At the same time the numbers of arrests fell, and, more important, there was a massive reduction in what the police call "crimes cleared up", from 119,000 in 1977 to 106,000 in 1981.
  I mark 1978 as the turning point, for crimes committed and for crimes detected, as a simple statement of statistical fact. It would be easy to make party political points about the change in those figures, and, remembering the way in which the Conservative Party behaved during the last election, the Home Secretary could hardly complain if I chose to do so. But to refer, as the Prime Minister did in 1978, to
  "the world of the Clockwork Orange"
  and then to announce that
  "here in Britain that world has become visibly nearer"
  does not seem to me to be an intelligent way in which to conduct this debate, so I content myself with saying that if the Prime Minister was right in 1978 to say that the world of the Clockwork Orange was just around the corner, how much nearer is it today after three years of Conservative Government? I content myself with simply asking her that question, without any hope of reply, because I believe that allegations of the sort that she and her hon. Friends made before and during the last election campaign, combined with easy promises and facile solutions, are themselves a major contributory cause of the crisis that we face today.
  Simplistic slogans have encouraged the belief that crime can be swiftly reduced and criminals can assuredly he caught by tough penalties and perhaps even simply by
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  tough talk. That view is obviously absurd, not least because punishment becomes an effective deterrent only when the criminal believes that arrest is certain and conviction inevitable. I urge Conservative hon. Members to read a recent speech on the subject by the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler), who has some experience in these matters, and for whose first page of political knock-about I more than forgive him because of the wisdom of the rest of the speech.
  What the hon. Gentleman made very clear, and what I believe should be the main theme of our debate today, was that the major problem of crime and the crime figures is the criminals' confidence that they will be neither caught nor punished. If they believe that, arguments about whether their sentence will be seven or 10 years never pass through their minds. The practical necessity for reducing the crime rate is the certainty of detection. The debate about crime should be about not the strength of punishment but the effectiveness of the police.
  Calls for the rope and the birch, which in my view are wrong in principle, have another undoubted disadvantage. They are dangerous and facile alternatives to facing the real facts and to taking the practical decisions that will actually reduce the level of crime.
  The first fact that I ask the Government to accept is the relationship between increasing crime and increasing unemployment. I know that the Prime Minister constantly asserts that there is little or no connection. I ask her to accept not my judgment but that of her own Home Secretary, who said in February 1978:
  "There has been a dramatic rise in unemployment among boys and girls. That is the responsibility of this Government. Let no one have any doubt about the danger that that has created in terms of crime of all sorts, violence and vandalism. If boys and girls do not obtain jobs when they leave school, they feel that society has no need of them. If they feel that, they do not see any reason why they should take part in that society and comply with its rules. That is what is happening and, wherever we sit in this House, that is what we have to recognise."—[Official Report, 27 February 1978; Vol. 945, c. 40.]
  Nobody on the Opposition Benches could have put the position better. If that was true in 1978, when there were 1,506,000 unemployed men and women, including the school leavers to whom the right hon. Gentleman referred, how much more true is it today, when the total unemployment figure has risen to over 3 million?
  Mr. John Browne rose—
  Mr. Nigel Forman rose—
  Mr. Hattersley: I shall give way in a moment, but I hope that in questioning me on this point the two hon. Gentlemen will quote the only true begetter.
  Mr. Forman: Does not the right hon. Gentleman also accept that, whereas there is no doubt that there is a connection between levels of unemployment and levels of of irresponsible behaviour or crime, that does not constitute in any shape or form an excuse for such behaviour?
  Mr. Hattersley: There are several points to make, one of which demonstrates the error of giving way. It is not I who must accept what the hon. Gentleman says; it is the Prime Minister. I have always accepted it. I have been advocating the relationship between the two factors for some time. But I was going on to say, and I shall say it in a moment, something directly related to the hon. Gentleman's second question.

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  First, and I think that preventing the House hearing the wisdom of the hon. Member for Luton—[HON. MEMBERS: "Winchester."] I am sure that the wisdom will be as great as I expected, even though I got the constituency wrong. First, I must ask the Home Secretary a specific question. Those of us who are authorities on his replies will understand when I say that it is not a question that he can tell the House will be answered at the end of the day by the Minister of State. It is one that he must answer himself.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman still believe in the relationship between unemployment and crime, about which he was so eloquent in 1978? If, as I suspect, the right hon. Gentleman does believe in it—I shall give way at once if he wants to answer now—is it not an obvious fact that the increase in crime that has plagued this country for the past two years is in no small measure the result of the Government's economic policy?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw): I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer now, because I want to deal with other matters in my speech. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have never denied that, of course, unemployment is a factor. But I do not and will not accept—and my words do not accept—that it is the sole factor.
  Mr. Hattersley: The Prime Minister asserted that it was not a factor on the night of the Brixton riots, and has done so on several subsequent occasions. I am glad that we are making progress, at least with the more enlightened parts of the Government.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: On Tuesday the Prime Minister said that there was no justification for such a simplistic assertion, because of the experience of the 1930s. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the crime rate, which went up by 10 per cent. last year, went up by an average of 14 per cent. a year between 1930 and 1934, and. that in 1932 it went up by 30 per cent? Surely that is the finest indication that there is a clear correlation between unemployment and crime.
  Mr. Hattersley: My hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Lyon) was kind enough to show me some figures, and I hope that he will develop them during his speech. They show a direct and absolute correlation between inter-war increases in unemployment and inter-war increases in crime. That proves the Prime Minister wrong for the second time.
  Mr. John Browne rose—
  Mr. Hattersley: I will give way, but I must then get on because I have a long speech to make and I understand that the Home Secretary has a very long speech to make.
  Mr. Browne: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the fastest rising categories of crime is among school children? They are equivalent to employed people in terms of crime. Therefore, does he believe that, while crime and unemployment may have risen together, unemployment is a major cause of crime?
  Mr. Hattersley: Of course I do, as does the Home Secretary. If I were a young black teenager living in a decaying central area, anticipating unemployment and watching the reduction in social services and the
  1110
  humiliations heaped upon me by the Government's British Nationality Act 1981 and other matters, I would be tempted in those ways. We are hypocritical—I include myself in that—if we pretend anything else.
  I must make the best progress I can, but will answer the question put to me by the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne). To mention the obvious relationship between crime and unemployment immediately provokes the allegation that the young criminal is being excused, his crime condoned and his conduct justified. I am doing none of those things. I am simply stating the cause and relationship. I must tell the hon. Gentleman and others who ask that question that moral judgments may give us all a sanctimonious satisfaction, but do not reduce the rate of crime. For that to happen, we must re-establish the old relationship between the police and the public, and I shall speak about that this afternoon.
  I do not propose to sentimentalise about what is commonly called "the bobby on the beat". However, I intend to argue, as many senior policemen argue, that over the past decade the police have become more remote from the communities they serve. They have become less visible among them and less associated with those communities' daily lives. That process began almost 20 years ago when the idea of cost-effective policing became the vogue—police in fast motor cars and police equipped with two-way radios.
  I am certain that we now need the re-establishment and retention of the foot patrol, which is familiar with the communities it serves, a tangible deterrent to criminals, reassurance to law-abiding citizens and an essential source of vital information. Of course, the officer in a motor car gets to a burglary, road accident and, indeed, domestic quarrel far more quickly than his old predecessor on foot. However, he is not the same force for protection and deterrence as the beat policeman was and must become again. Perhaps most important is that the general public do not feel the same obligation to talk to that policeman and work with him. We must establish the essential feature of the public working with the police.
  Mr. Alan Clark: It was Roy Jenkins who put them in the cars.
  Mr. Hattersley: I had hoped that we might have a little good manners from the hon. Gentleman's party. After that vain hope, I shall continue.
  I do not believe that the relationship we need to reestablish between police and public will come about until there is general acceptance in Britain of the need to get police back among the public, as represented by two major changes in police organisation. The first is the reduction in the size of police authority areas. They were reduced 15 years ago from 123 to 41 forces. Larger but fewer police forces have made them more cost-effective but more remote. The second and perhaps more radical change that needs to come about is the establishment of police committees, both in the provinces and in London, consisting of elected men and women who represent the opinions of the people the police serve and who are responsible for the overall policy of the police in their areas.
  I certainly do not want those police committees to have responsibility for day-to-day operational matters. Nor do I want them to have the slightest influence on prosecution policy. Indeed, prosecution policy should be in the hands

  1111
  of a national prosecution service as proposed by the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure. However, some decisions ought not to be taken by a chief officer, who is answerable to no one and required to justify his decisions to no one.
  A simple example is that last summer, after the Brixton and Toxteth riots, the Home Secretary announced that police forces who chose to do so could be equipped with baton rounds, an alias for rubber bullets, armoured personnel carriers and CS gas. Nobody in his right mind would suggest that if a police force chose to possess such equipment a police committee should be convened to approve its specific use. However, the initial decision to arm the police in this way, whatever its merits or necessity, contributes to a change in the character of the police force. Surely that fundamental decision, affecting the lives of people in an entire police force area, should not be taken by one man alone, no matter how senior or experienced.
  Therefore, an elected police authority responsive to and, indeed, dependent on the local community would be a major influence in preserving policy by consent, bringing the police and public closer together, keeping uniformed policemen on the streets and encouraging the right attitude to policing in inner cities.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman made an important point and I partly concur with it. If an elected police authority were to decide that its local police ought not to have CS gas and the necessary implements to suppress riots, is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the people of that area should be exposed to riots, even though a chief officer of police believed that his men ought to have that protection?
  Mr. Hattersley: The elected authority would take that decision, right or wrong. If the people of an area thought that the police had made a mistake and that the authority was providing inadequate protection, or that the police were not being adequately supported, come the next May or the May after, they could dispose of their police committee. That is called democracy. The police will not associate with the people they serve until democracy prevails in this area.
  I must tell the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) something that he already knows. In some areas, the sort of relationship I seek has already been established. In Birmingham—where what has happened in Handsworth has become famous—the police as a whole make a conscious effort to be identified with and visible within the decaying central areas.
  The West Midlands police have no doubt that their determination to preserve policing by consent and avoid aggressive attitudes and actions was a chief reason why peace was maintained in Birmingham last year when the London and Liverpool riots were breaking out. That must be the pattern for the country. I now fear that the Home Secretary is being jostled into action that will alienate the police and public in a way that makes prevention of crime and conviction of criminals much more difficult.
  Let me make it absolutely clear that I regard it as nonsense to suggest that the Home Secretary has failed to carry out the policy that he promised three years ago. The main thrust of that policy was an increase in police manpower. It is impossible to argue that the Home Secretary has not achieved what he set out to do. The
  1112
  Government in which I served set up the Edmund-Davies Committee. That committee recommended a revolution in police pay, immediate increases and a completely new pay scale. That Government proposed to implement that report in stages. However, the Home Secretary put it into operation immediately—in May rather than September 1979. As a result, he presided over a very large increase in police manpower.
  Critics of the Home Secretary seem to me to fly in the face of that essential central fact. Having achieved that increase, it is essential that the larger police forces are trained and used properly. Yet, while that is so obvious, a massive campaign is being mounted in some newspapers, in some recesses of the 1922 Committee and even in some police forces to convince the Home Secretary that all that is needed is tougher police powers and more stringent punishments.
  No doubt today we shall hear the Home Secretary's response to that call. I understand that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, due to various nods and winks that he claims that he has received from the Home Secretary, knows already what the Home Secretary intends. The 1922 Committee was given some encouragement and hints on Monday.
  Mr. Alan Clark: We did not meet on Monday.
  Mr. Hattersley: I must be precise about such an august institution. The Home Affairs Committee, the intended lynch mob of the 1922 Committee, was given some encouraging hints last Monday.
  My hope is that the Home Secretary will turn out to be employing the same political tactics as served him so well after the summer disturbances—tough talk on Monday night, a more reasonable response on Thursday afternoon, and a return to moderation as soon as he is back in the Home Office without any parliamentary debates. Whether or not that is his tactic I must tell him that the Opposition would not support, and he could only introduce after much controversy, new police powers that would detach the police even further from the community. By that I mean powers of the type recommended in the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure, which suggested the extension of the power to stop and search, the compulsory finger printing of children, the holding of suspects without charge and the right of the police to arrest anyone who refuses to give a name and address. That would result only in a deterioration in the relationship between the police and the public and a consequent increase, not reduction, in crime.
  The Royal Commission claimed to have produced a balanced document that matched increased police powers with additional civil rights safeguards, although, in my view, the safeguards were generally inadequate. Now there is a suggestion, as a result of press leaks or speculation, that the Home Secretary intends to implement only half of the report—the increased powers but riot the safeguards. Such a proposal would be wholly intolerable to thinking opinion everywhere. I hope that the Home Secretary makes it clear today that that is not his intention.
  I know very well the strength of the pressure upon him. Some of it I fear comes from unthinking sections of the police service itself. The Metropolitan Police have campaigned publicly and very effectively over the past two years for changes in the law. In a free society, that is their right, but they must understand that if they and the

  1113
  commissioner wish to enter into these public controversies they must expect those who do not agree with them to tell them so and the commissioner must not regard any disagreement with his point of view as something that qualifies for the demand that we "get off his back".
  About the speeches of the chief constable of Manchester I say only one thing. I hope that the general public will understand that other chief constables should not be judged by the embarrassing nonsense that emanates from Mr. Anderton. More than that, I am interested in the actions, or at least one action, by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. I refer to the publication on 10 March 1982 of figures of offences analysed by the race of the alleged assailant.
  Two days before those figures were published, perhaps knowing that they were to be published, Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary warned the public to be
  "wary of crime statistics except as providing a broad indication of the situation."
  Unfortunately, the commissioner did not heed that warning. In his selective presentation of statistics he did not, as he might have done, emphasise that sexual assaults had decreased in London over the year or murders had been reduced. He simply produced an extraordinary table of figures giving recorded offences broken down by
  "victim perception of the appearance of the assailant."
  The House should be clear what that meant. The commissioner was not listing convictions or the race of a convicted person but simply saying what victims of solved and unsolved crimes believed to be the race of the person who had attacked them. It is difficult to imagine a more phoney set of statistics.
  Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Neither did he list the racial or ethnic origins of the victims of such crimes.
  Mr. Hattersley: That is equally true.
  I must again ask the Home Secretary, as he is the police authority for London and told us in the House last week that he was party to the publication of those figures, a specific question. He must know, and if he does not know the statistician in his Department will tell him, that that table is statistical garbage. Why did he choose to have it published? I have no doubt why the commissioner chose to have it published; it was part of his campaign for tougher police penalties in London. Why did the Home Secretary do so, exceptionally, and on a day when his Minister of State, on the same page of the Official Report, announced that it was not the Government's policy to give out Metropolitan Police figures and said that it must be done through the office of the police directly?
  Therefore, why did the Home Secretary choose to print this statistical dross in the Official Report which gave papers such as the Daily Mail, with its appalling racist record, the opportunity to say inaccurately on its front page "Black crime: The Alarming Figures"? Those tables prove nothing and, for the third time, the Home Secretary must tell the House this afternoon why he chose to dignify them with a parliamentary answer.
  The Home Secretary must do that because I think that he understands, on reflection, the damage that the gratuitous publication of those figures has done to the arguments used by many Labour Members. We tell the ethnic minorities, the black British and the Asian families
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  that, in most cases, the police are on their side. Pursuing that point of view, as we shall and must, has been seriously and tragically undermined by that single action. Thanks to the Metropolitan Police that task is infinitely more difficult.
  The Labour Party will continue its attempts to encourage the police and the public to work more closely together. We shall persist in our belief that in recent years the two have drifted apart. That is a view that is not confined simply to radical opinion, blacks or the Labour Party. Mr. Ferdinand Mount of the Spectator, writing in The Standard— a more impeccably reactionary combination than those three factors it is difficult to imagine—said:
  "For the first time in this country, the conduct of the police is being brought into question, not among parts of the working-class who might regard themselves as the hereditary enemies of the constabulary, but among the respectable middle classes."
  The Labour Party want to bring an end to that situation by making the police responsive and responsible to the people that they serve, and by making them visible in the pursuit of crime in the places where they are needed most. That is because we want to see a real reduction in the crime rate and we are determined to focus the nation's attention on the practical ways of bringing that reduction about.
  4.59 pm
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw): The recent parliamentary, public and press debate and comment about crime, law and order, and policing will have served a good purpose if it prompts a measured and realistic response. I hope that this debate will deal with the reality of the problem and address itself to what the Government have done, and will do, in respect of all the parts of the criminal justice system. I intend to deal not only with policing but with the process of trial, prisons and the effectiveness of each. In doing so, I hope to reply to many of the points made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley).
  The Government inherited a depleted, and therefore demoralised, police service. Rewards for an enormously difficult task were inadequate, and the rapid loss of experienced officers badly threatened police effectiveness. That situation has now been transformed. As one of the very first acts of this Government, in the first week of office, we implemented the Edmund-Davies pay arrangements in full. Police strength in England and Wales has increased by more than 8,000 since May 1979. Almost all forces are now up to their establishment. The Metropolitan Police, for years thousands short, has topped the 25,000 mark and will reach its establishment in the foreseeable future.
  The restoration of the basic health of the police service and its rapidly growing strength have enabled crucial steps to be taken. First, increasing numbers of policemen throughout the country are going back on the beat, into the communities they are there to serve, no longer trapped by false economy behind the steering wheel of a panda car. I sometimes read articles or hear speeches that give the impression that so-called community policing is the prerogative of the critics of the police. That is not so. It is increasingly the rule rather than the exception, and it has been made possible, in our innner cities particularly, by the rapid growth of manpower.
  Secondly, the new strength of the police service has enabled the police and the Government together to rebuild and remould police effectiveness. We are now engaged in

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  a thorough examination of training and are improving the quality of supervision and management. Moreover, in the past few years, the police have had to tackle a range of new or growing problems. With full Government support, they have developed new organisational, tactical and technical changes which have improved their effectiveness. They have achieved major successes.
  There is no more testing modern challenge than that of terrorism. To combat it in all its forms—bombings, assassinations, sieges, hijackings—is highly intensive in terms of resources and has required the rapid development of specialist skills and contingency planning. Skilled protection, painstaking investigation, patient negotiation and tight command and control have brought the police, and therefore the public, the rewards of success. Princes Gate and Stansted were outstanding examples, but so, too, has been the inevitably unpublicised effectiveness of preventive action.
  Improvements in planning, command, tactics, training and equipment are also the hallmarks of increased police effectiveness in the face of serious disorder. These have been built not out of some instant reaction but out of careful work on deployment and response, particularly since the events in Bristol in April 1980.
  In two areas the impact on effectiveness is clear. The first is the provision of mutual aid—the arrangement by which one force provides assistance to another which is under pressure. The disturbances of last summer called for national co-ordination. This did not just happen. It was planned and arranged by a team directed by the president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, an inspector of constabulary, and a senior Home Office official. Assistance was deployed rapidly, through logistical arrangements tailored between forces, and was matched by command and control systems within forces.
  Secondly, the equipment now available to the police for their protection has enabled chief officers better to adopt positive tactics to break up violent groups. Earlier this week, at the police staff college at Bramshill, chief officers held a comprehensive seminar to cover all these points and considered together the priority which must be given to preventing disorder, as well as the necessity of reacting swiftly and firmly if it occurs.
  The police have also adapted their operational techniques to overcome the methods of the most highly organised criminals operating at national and international level. Worldwide networks of drug importers and distributors have been broken up and large seizures of cocaine, heroin and cannabis have been made. Against major gangs of robbers and burglars, operating across the country, the police are steadily scoring important successes. Such success, against highly sophisticated criminals, can be brought about only by the effective organisation of criminal intelligence, the concentration of effort on to carefully selected target criminals and, often, a high degree of co-operation between officers from regional crime squads and a number of different police forces. Between them, these officers possess an impressive range of detective and specialist skills and the police record of detection of the most serious crimes—which is excellent—bears this out. In 1981, 97 per cent. of the 559 homicides in England and Wales were cleared up by the police. In the same year there were some 6,300 offences involving danger to life, of which 80 per cent. were cleared up.
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  In relation to terrorism, public order, highly organised crime, and the most serious crime, there is a record of action and success of which the police can be proud and the public reassured. But individual members of the public are more closely affected in their homes and on the street by other crimes, particularly burglary and robbery.
  Before I discuss the action being taken to tackle these persistent problems, I should refer to the recent decision by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to publish figures for the racial appearance of people involved in street robberies in London. It has been said by some, and by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook today, that those figures should not have been published because of the harm that they may do to race relations. I disagree. It is better for such problems to be discussed in terms of facts rather than rumour. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that I adopted that policy in connection with the recent study carried out by my Department into racial attacks. I believe that giving the facts is the right policy and I stand by the correctness of that course of action.
  Mr. Hattersley: Will the Home Secretary turn his attention to the exact point that I made? The tables are not the facts—any statistician in his Department or anywhere else will agree with what I say, which was put to me by a professional statistician—they are statistical garbage. What is the justification for printing things that prove nothing?
  Mr. Whitelaw: It is far better to print the statistics than to believe many of the wild allegations and rumours going around. There were many allegations and rumours from all quarters about what was happening. In those circumstances, it is far better to publish the facts honestly. That is what we have done.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: If we really want the facts about black involvement in crime we must surely have ethnic monitoring of crime throughout the country for all types of offences. I am not against that. Surely the right hon. Gentleman sees the difference between a simple partial attempt to qualify crime in London as opposed to the provinces. He will indeed recollect that his own recent Home Office study, in three separate investigations in different parts of the country, showed that whites rather than blacks were responsible for street crime in those areas.
  Mr. Whitelaw: I certainly return to the point that I published the facts from the racial attack study at the Department and I think that I was right to do so. I was criticised by some for that, although not by the hon. Gentleman. I believe that it is much better to give the facts. I am asked "Why London?" It is because I believe that there are particular problems in London, which the figures show.
  Crimes of burglary, street robbery and vandalism are serious problems rooted often in particular communities. They often require particularly local measures to deal with them. There are four strands of action to be taken and an effective approach must link them.
  First, the local community has to see that action is possible and is being taken, both to try to reduce the level of crime and to remove fear of it. This must mean that police are put back on to foot patrol where they build up detailed knowledge of their beat and can be identified more closely with the local community. In addition to men

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  already deployed in that way, 900 more officers have already been returned to beat duty in London and 300 in Greater Manchester, and the story is the same in places as different as Toxteth and Sussex. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has further plans for another 300 men to be put back on the beat. I emphasise to the right hon. Gentleman and to the Opposition that none of this would be possible but for the remarkable increase in police manpower under the Conservative Government.
  Secondly, there needs to be a reappraisal of methods and tactics employed. As I have said, in dealing with highly professional criminals, police success comes from the organisation of criminal intelligence and from focussing attention upon target areas and target criminals. The same principles are being applied with success to operations against more local crimes and criminals. Such operations are not restricted to an occasional show of strength which may briefly send the criminals to ground. They have been, and must be, sustained until the criminals are caught and brought to justice. Special burglary squads for example in Surrey, and street crime squads, too, for example in the West Midlands, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, by applying these techniques in new adapted ways, are achieving encouraging successes. These efforts on the ground are being supported by Home Office research into methods of deployment.
  Thirdly, in tackling the problem of local crime, crime prevention has a crucial part to play. It has been undervalued up to now by many householders and business men. It does not cost a great deal to install improved physical defences which make the task of the criminal much more difficult, but the rewards of this outlay can be great in terms of security, losses avoided and peace of mind gained. Crime prevention needs to be operated by local voluntary and Government agencies as well as by individuals. Voluntary crime prevention panels, of which there are now 180 in England and Wales, have for some time been doing good work, mainly by means of schemes to improve physical security. But planning has an important part to play in local crime prevention. For example, street lighting, local housing developments and recreational facilities can be planned and developed so as to limit the opportunities for crime. This is an area in which the Government will look to local authorities and other agencies for an increasing involvement with the police at senior level.
  The fourth strand of action in dealing with local crime is the way in which the police, other agencies and the community together take practical steps to tackle particular problems. There is a major task here for new consultative arrangements, as this local approach is the most effective way to deal with particular neighbourhood problems. Such local initiatives are essential, but they require co-ordination, firm encouragement, and the means of spreading good practice.
  Thus, a realistic strategy against crime must recognise that it is a problem for all the community and cannot be left to the efforts, determinded though they may be, of the police alone. Nor can it be left to the consciences and good will of individuals.
  Mr. Clive Soley: The Home Secretary is making a very important point about prevention. Does he accept that this will require
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  resources? If the responsibility is placed on local authorities, they will need to employ people—particularly caretakers, for example, to keep an eye on buildings. If he intends to tell old people to put locks on their doors, will he bear in mind the comments of Age Concern that the DHSS will not help with expenses of that kind?
  Mr. Whitelaw: Many of the things that I suggest can be achieved by wiser and better use of existing resources. That is what we should all try to do and what all local authorities should be doing, because a special responsibility rests with all those in positions of authority and all the public services concerned with individuals and communities.
  I have discussed these matters with my right hon. Friend the Secretaries of State for the Environment, for Education and Science and for Social Services. We are agreed that there is a large potential area, quite separate from direct police action, for local initiatives to curb crime, to reduce the opportunities for crime and to encourage a sensible climate of opinion and local leadership. I emphasise that these would be local measures. The Government have a national responsibility to encourage, support and guide such efforts, but the problem can only be tackled effectively where it occurs, and that is on the ground, in the localities where the problems are greatest. The education and social services, particularly good schools, are important agencies for the reduction of crime. The urban programme is another source of practical support in the areas where many of the worst problems are found.
  My right hon. Friends and I are taking stock of the work now in hand with the aim of identifying further practical proposals which can be developed locally to curb crime. I intend to let the House know what emerges from this work, which must be closely linked with the programme of action on community-police consultation which I have already announced.
  In addition, all these actions must be buttressed in another, and crucial, way. We in this House have a duty to ensure that the police are provided with the legal powers that they need to discharge the heavy and difficult responsibilities that we impose upon them. We have a duty also to ensure that these powers are accompanied by due safeguards for the citizen.
  The Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure carried out a thorough examination of the existing law on police powers with both these considerations in mind. It made proposals, too, about the initiation of criminal proceedings and, less comprehensively, about the trial process. We debated the Royal Commission's report last November and there was general agreement about the value of the Commission's work and the need for reform. My hon. Friend the Minister of State and I were able then to tell the House some of our thinking on the issues raised by the report.
  I can say today that I accept the case which the Royal Commission has made for some extension of police powers, in particular by rationalising the existing powers to stop and search for stolen goods, and by introducing powers to stop and search people for offensive weapons, and to search premises for evidence in difficult cases. I intend to bring forward proposals for legislation on these lines.
  Mr. Norman Atkinson: Does the Home Secretary accept that the indignities associated with stop

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  and search techniques are thoroughly resented by all communities and that by extending those powers he will sacrifice the good will particularly of young black people? If there is any justification for producing statistics separating crime into ethnic categories, all that the figures prove is that, in London particularly, twice as many young black people between the ages of 16 and 25 are unemployed, which co-relates with the figures that he has given for crime. Before sacrificing that good will, will he think again about what is involved in stop and search techniques?
  Mr. Whitelaw: I accept that proposals of this nature will not be popular with those who are seeking to commit crime, or to criminals. However, I cannot see why we should sacrifice the good will of the vast majority of law-abiding citizens in this country who want to be protected from crime.
  The whole process of improving police effectiveness is neither static nor partial. It requires of chief officers the development of a comprehensive strategy in the allocation of manpower within their forces to which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook referred. Nationally I, as Home Secretary, have a responsibility for promoting and stimulating good practice and new lessons I intend to carry it out to the full, with the support of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. In view of the increasingly national dimension of many of our problems, and my responsibility for promoting efficiency, I have asked Sir James Crane and his colleagues to concentrate their attention on the way in which priorities are set, resources managed and good practice promoted. In the Metropolis the commissioner, his senior officers, and the Metropolitan Police Inspectorate will pursue the same approach. One of my major responsibilities as Home Secretary is to ensure that the link between London and the provinces is fully forged, to the benefit of both, and that national policy enables and supports local initiative.
  Amidst the focus on crime of recent weeks, there have also been calls for institutional changes, some of them pointing in contrary directions. As far as Lord Scarman's recommendations are concerned, the Opposition—the right hon. Gentleman said it again this afternoon—while allegedly supporting his report, appear neatly to sidestep a principal recommendation that the Home Secretary should remain the police authority for the Metropolis. I do not believe that it would be responsible to set aside the major local and national responsibilities of the Metropolitan Police which prompt its accountability to a senior Cabinet Minister, nor blur this clear line of my accountability to the House. Nor do I believe that outside the Metropolis we should look to major institutional amendment of the Police Act 1964. Its basic structure remains, in my view, a fully adequate framework for developing the proper roles of chief officer, police authority, and Home Secretary, and for enhancing police effectiveness. Within its structure, and separately in London, we shall press forward action to strengthen community consultation.
  This is not the occasion for a formal tribute but I should like now, as well as more formally later this year, to thank Sir David McNee for his steadfastness, co-operation and calm professionalism. I hope that despite some of his criticisms, which he is entitled to make, the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook will join in that tribute. I am
  1120
  grateful to Sir Kenneth Newman for being ready to put his experience and skill to the service of the people of London and the nation from the beginning of October.
  It is time that the sterile debate about hard and soft policing was ended. The range of activities that I have outlined in improving effectiveness, the major successes that the police have achieved, and the complex of problems that they face, cannot be summed up in those terms. Such debate is irrelevant and misleading. Over 99 per cent. of the great increase in police strength since I became Home Secretary has been in the ranks of constable, sergeant and inspector: new men on the ground, and immediate supervision for their effective deployment. They know that effectiveness in tackling crime needs carefully planned vigorous law enforcement and consistently applied community contact and consultation. Neither on its own is sufficient in policy or practice; both are necessary.
  However, the effectiveness of the police depends upon, and is inseparable from, the effectiveness of the criminal justice system as a whole. We need, therefore, to concern ourselves also with the working of the courts, and of the services which deal with convicted offenders. As regards the trial process, an issue over which much anxiety has recently been expressed—justifiably in my view—is the integrity of the jury system and the need to exclude from juries people who have themselves been convicted of crime. The present law debars those who, within the past 10 years, have served a prison sentence of three months or more. It is our view that the area of disqualification must be widened to exclude anyone convicted of an imprisonable offence during the past 10 years, even though no immediate sentence of imprisonment was imposed. It is wrong that someone convicted of a serious offence should be allowed to serve on a jury merely because the court dealing with his case found it possible to take a fairly lenient course by imposing, say, a fully suspended sentence of imprisonment, or a community service order. Juries should be representative of the law-abiding community. I intend to bring forward proposals on those lines and to take the earliest suitable legislative opportunity.
  Mr. Douglas Hogg: If my right: hon. Friend is considering juries, will he also consider the possibility of abolishing the right of arbitrary challenge?
  Mr. Whitelaw: I have read with care the views expressed by various members of the profession to which my hon. Friend belongs. I notice that there is no agreement among them on this issue. However, I will carefully study the points they make. I have always believed that to bring forward proposals to the House on which the hon. and learned Members in the House are divided is a hazardous process.
  Mr. George Cunningham: If the right hon. Gentleman is waiting for the lawyers to agree, he will never do anything on that basis.
  Mr. Whitelaw: That is not quite true. Sometimes lawyers do agree. However, if it is necessary to act despite their divisions, one must do so. I should like to hear more of the argument on this issue before answering my hon. Friend.
  The maximum penalties for particular criminal offences are fixed by Parliament. Within those maxima, the

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  individual sentence is decided by the court. The independent role of judges and magistrates in sentencing is vital to maintaining public confidence in the criminal justice system. It would be a bad day for this country if that power were ever to pass to politicians, of any shade of opinion.
  For serious offences the existing law already provides maximum penalties higher than most people suppose. The most serious crimes of violence, including manslaughter, rape, robbery, using a firearm to resist arrest, and possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life, carry liability to life imprisonment. For other serious offences, including burglary, handling stolen goods and trafficking in certain drugs, the maximum is as high as 14 years. I know that the courts are aware of the feeling of this House and the public at large that violent criminals should expect to receive substantial terms of imprisonment. Hon. Members may recall that, in his judgment in the case of Bibi, the Lord Chief Justice made it clear that
  "for most offences involving serious violence"
  a medium or longer term sentence of imprisonment will generally be appropriate. Right hon. and hon. Members will also have read the important speech yesterday of the Lord Chief Justice in another place.
  With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I should like very briefly to mention the Criminal Justice Bill which will help to strengthen, extend and make more flexible the range of sentences available to the courts. It meets, in particular, the widespread concern that the courts are unable to deal effectively with the increasing involvement of young people in crime. The Bill repeals section 3 of the Criminal Justice Act 1961 and so restores the power of a judge dealing with a young adult to impose a determinate custodial sentence of any length within the maximum appropriate to the offence.
  In relation to all young offenders, the Bill reduces both the minimum and the maximum term of a detention centre order so as to achieve consistency with the new brisker regime which we have already introduced in four detention centres. In relation to juveniles, it strengthens the powers of magistrates when dealing with children subject to care orders. It also contains provisions designed to increase the courts' confidence in the use of supervision orders.
  In these ways we are providing the courts with realistic alternatives to committal to detention centre or youth custody, and so enabling them to be more discriminating in their use of custodial sentences. We are also strengthening their powers to bring home to parents, where necessary, their responsibility for their children's wrongdoing. In relation to summary offences by adults, the Bill brings maximum fines up to more realistic levels.
  We are enabling a greater number of offenders to be dealt with outside prison by increasing the number of attendance centres and by giving extra resources to the probation service. But, for those offenders whom the courts find it necessary to send to prison, places must be provided. Our policy here is to make the most effective use of our limited resources, under constraints imposed by the neglect of our prison system under previous Governments.
  The Government have substantially increased the resources available to the prison system. The present building programme should produce 5,000 new places in the 1980s. The construction of eight new prisons is to start in the period 1981 to 1985. We shall spend over £50
  1122
  million this year, with more to come, on redevelopment, refurbishing and repairs in existing establishments. That includes 14 major capital projects at existing establishments on which we are spending £23 million in the current financial year, and there are dozens of smaller schemes elsewhere. Major reconstruction projects are planned at over 60 establishments. Through those unprecedented efforts, instead of allowing the deterioration of the fabric of our prisons to continue virtually unchecked, we are ensuring that the capacity of the system is maintained and improved.
  We are determined to ensure that there will be room in the prison system for every person whom the judges and magistrates decide should go there, and we shall continue to do whatever is necessary for that purpose.
  I welcome the opportunity that the debate provides for hon. Members to voice their concern about crime and how it should be dealt with. I do not underestimate the gravity of the problem, and I shall consider carefully all the views that are expressed. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the opportunity he has given me to restate all that the Government have done and are doing to promote the effectiveness of the police and of the whole criminal justice system, and to pay tribute to the excellent work that is being done by all the services that have to cope with crime and criminals at first hand.
  We all have a democratic right to scrutinise the working of our institutions and public services, and their effectiveness in carrying out their tasks, but it is important, most of all for us in this House, that our right of scrutiny should be exercised in a balanced and responsible way. It is our duty to avoid wild exaggeration and merely destructive criticism. Let us remember not only what it is that we are fighting against—against crime, often greedy, sordid and brutal—but what is it that we seek to defend: a decent and humane society, which is able to meet the challenge of crime with a calm and determined resolve, and even in self-defence will preserve, not abandon, its confidence in its own values.
  5.34 pm
  Mr. John Morris: I hope that the message will go out from the House that there is no monopoly of concern for the maintenance of law and order. The subject of the debate is more effective policing and the reduction of crime. All of us, on whichever side of the House we sit, want more effective policing and the reduction of crime.
  I listened with care to the Home Secretary's speech. He took pride in the figures for the detection of homicides and serious crimes, and that is to be welcomed, but he did not go into detail on figures for the detection of less serious crimes. Those are the crimes that affect a greater number of people, and I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would want to spend a little time talking about the difficulties of detecting burglaries and those responsible for mugging. Those crimes affect our constituents. I hope that the message will go out from the House that there is unanimity of opinion among hon. Members. All our constituents are affected. The weaker they are, the greater the need for effective policing, so that the young, the old, the fragile and our womenfolk are protected.
  I listened with care to the realistic, sober and balanced speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). The Home Secretary made an important and wide-ranging speech. He

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  is to seek shortly to introduce new powers for the police, and we shall look at those with great care. The right hon. Gentleman must be exceedingly watchful about not upsetting the balance and creating resentment by the increase of powers without proper safeguards.
  What has caused resentment in the past has been the misuse of powers. If one were to ask for increased powers and say at the same time that there was to be a radical change in the police complaints procedure, there would be much greater enthusiasm for the right hon. Gentleman's proposal. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must watch with extreme care any new power, to ensure that the balance is not upset and resentment created.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that the integrity of the jury had to be safeguarded and that there should be wider powers to exclude people from juries. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about that. However, the right hon. Gentleman might look at the machinery to ensure that jury men who have convictions know they should not serve on juries. That matter should be properly and fully brought to the attention of those concerned so that people with criminal convictions do not serve on juries.
  We are concerned about how we can have more effective policing and how there can be a reduction in crime. My right hon. Friend was right in saying that the concern in the country as a whole is about the issue of detection. If there were higher rates of detection, and if one knew that criminals would be brought to book, there would he less unhappiness.
  We do not have either a glib Home Secretary or a glib Shadow Home Secretary. It would be a glib Home Secretary who thought that he had all the answers. There is no complete answer. However, what we can have is a series of ideas that can be tested. I hope that we shall hear some in the debate. We can see how far they carry us along in the basic aim of having more effective policing.
  I shall deal with a matter on which many hon. Members unanimously agree—more bobbies on the beat. Everyone wants to see more bobbies on the beat. Although there is an increased number, there is a widespread view that fewer bobbies are seen on the beat. Policemen's hours have properly been decreased over the years. Over a long period their working week—short of overtime, I hope—has been made more reasonable and more in accord with other people's working hours.
  We are concerned whether all the modern techniques are being used. One sees in the courts day after day that it is still the practice for policemen to write statements in longhand, taking up hours of their time. Does that mean that we have not availed ourselves of the new techniques, so that while there may be more bobbies, more of their time is being taken up with bureaucracy and paper work? I should like to know the figures. What is the increase in the number of hours that policemen spend on the beat? That matter is crucial in safeguarding our society.
  It would be wrong to ignore social conditions, and the Home Secretary has not done so today. Let us kill the idea once and for all that unemployment is an excuse for crime. However, it is a factor that cannot be ignored, and if we ignore it we do so at our peril. When one finds long-term unemployed people, young people without hope, and young long-term unemployed in great concentrations, frequently of one colour, is it surprising to find an adverse reaction?
  The area that I represent has high unemployment—as high as 20 per cent. in the borough that makes up the
  1124
  greater part of my constituency. No one is suggesting that the overwhelming majority of those unemployed people have any connection with crime. Crime is a minority activity that is carried out by any class of society, whether employed or unemployed. If the Government are complacent and do not realise the danger of having long-term unemployment without hope in the forseeable future, they do so at their peril, because it could seriously affect the quality of our lives.
  Mr. John Stokes: I have the honour to have many good Welsh people in my constituency. They went there during the 1930s, at the time of the depression and unemployment, and they made good. They say to me "We never threw a bomb or a brick". They always behaved themselves. There is not necessarily a connection between crime and unemployment.
  Mr. Morris: I hope that Welshmen keep out of the courts, certainly as defendants. However, my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Lyon) produced figures which show that there is correlation. I do not know whether it is a complete correlation, but in areas where there is a concentration of long-term unemployed young people unemployment is a factor that we ignore at our peril. That is as far as I will go.
  There have been complaints about the statistics that were given recently by the Metropolitan Police. I do not object to the production of statistics, as a matter of principle, whether they relate to the blacks, the yellows, the Irish, the Welsh, the Scots, the English, the employed or the unemployed. The more facts that we have, the greater chance we have of getting to the root cause of the crime. However, the criticism was made in yesterday's debate, and it has been made on other occasions, that these are not facts, that they are not statistically sound, that they are incomplete, and that they give one crime, and one crime alone, for one part of the country. Thus, there is a danger in producing facts which are not facts in themselves, and are hardly better than a collection of figures which have been challenged as being statistically unsound. That is what causes resentment.
  Those that spend some time in the courts, and we hear from others what happens there, know that we need more statistics, certainly about what goes on in juvenile courts. We know that 50 per cent. of crimes are perpetrated by people under 21 years of age. It is important to know where these people come from. Time after time one finds that children in some of the best families in the land commit crimes. The complete answer is not to he found in employment, parental control, and other good factors stabilising families in a community. They do not necessarily provide a safeguard against young people appearing in court. The more statistics that we have, provided that they are acceptable, complete, comprehensive and unchallengeable, the more the Home Secretary will be able to carry out whatever steps he wishes to take, without causing unnecessary resentment.
  Unhappily, as the figures show, our streets are becoming more unsafe. As there is no complete answer to the problem, I agree with the Home Secretary in encouraging experiments by the Inspectorate of Constabulary into particular methods of policing. Not all those experiments will come off. He or his policemen may fall flat on their faces in one or other experiments.

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  However, if we can learn from diverse approaches to a problem to which there is no clear solution, I should not complain.
  I wish to make a comment in a general sense. Some of our chief constables are far too prone to take to public platforms. One wonders how they manage to do their jobs. One wonders about the others who never appear on the media and who get on with the policing in their areas. In the Principality of Wales we hardly ever see our chief constables on the goggle box or being reported in the papers. They get on with the job. One wonders how some of the super policemen find time, between addressing a host of gatherings from one end of the country to the other, to get on with their job. I think that it was Mr. Attlee who said of Mr. Lash in 1957 that a period of silence would not come amiss. I suggest that the same from some of these gentlemen would not come amiss now.
  I want to put one other matter to the Home Secretary. I welcome the decreased period for awaiting trial through the good work that has been done in the courts in the last few years. If a crime can be dealt with speedily in the courts and not come to the courts two or three years later, a lesson is brought home, not only to the individual but to the whole community. The hon. Gentleman might ponder on the best possible use of the time of our High Court judges. I know that he and the Lord Chief Justice are anxious to have shorter sentences.
  In the days when I was a young man at the Bar, the first day at the assize was taken up by the red judge dealing with a calendar covering a host of crimes, thus setting precedent and example. It was a means of percolating the general judicial view throughout the community. Now the bulk of crime is dealt with by circuit judges. High Court judges seem to spend most of their time trying murders and rape cases. They hardly ever try long cases. If judges do not appear regularly in each area, and unless they are prepared to take lesser and common-place crime, there is no percolation throughout the judiciary, thereby ensuring that the whole community is aware of the general sentencing policy.
  I hope that the message goes out today that the House supports the police in their difficult roles and that we want to ensure that they will be in a position to serve the community as a whole. When I hear ideas that there should be less involvement with the electorate or, as the Home Secretary said today, there should be more community involvement, I believe that our line should be more community involvement and greater association and less remoteness from the electorate.
  I fear that in the past we have had too large police forces. The theme was that bigness was good. I do not necessarily believe that small is beautiful, but we should consider the size of police forces—one can always co-ordinate and co-operate and there are new techniques now available that we did not have 10 or 20 years ago—to see how far, because of the enormous range that they cover, we gain or lose effectiveness and the value and importance of response to a community and working close to it.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. May I remind the House that we started the debate
  1126
  late because of the statement and that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak. Perhaps this is a day for brief speeches.
  5.50 pm
  Sir John Eden: The main purpose of my intervening briefly in the debate is to say something on behalf of my constituents. However, before I do so, I wish to comment on one aspect of the speech made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). He rather took my breath away with his enthusiastic espousal of the bobby on the beat, as though he had suddenly discovered and adopted it as official Labour Party policy. I believe that it was directly the result of the running down and demoralising of the police force when the Labour Party was in Government that it had to resort to the police in the panda car. I am thankful that he has come back on all fours to our view on the subject. I welcome him, because it means that there is widespread accord on what must be done and on the proper approach.
  The right hon. Gentleman, in the tribute that he fairly paid to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for helping to increase the strength of the police forces, should have followed it through by recognising that the reversal of the manpower crisis of 1977 means that we can now contemplate more foot policemen on the streets and a greater police presence where it is most required and can do most good.
  When one considers the range of achievements for which my right hon. Friend has been responsible since he became Home Secretary, perhaps the increase in the strength of the police force is the greatest achievement of all. Hon. Members should agree, looking at my right hon. Friend's record during the past years, that no Home Secretary has given greater moral and practical support to the police than he. Both inside and outside the House, we owe much to him for that.
  We also owe my right hon. Friend a considerable debt for his steady leadership in times of special crisis—acts of terrorism, hijacking or even the major riots. As a result of the experience of the riots, the police and everyone concerned with the problems will have learnt a great deal and are no doubt still studying some of the lessons. I am sure that we shall see vastly improved procedures should there be—which heaven forbid—a repetition of those events.
  I was especially alarmed by some observations that I read in the press recently that there may be a resurgence of the riot-type violence that we saw last year. I hope that that is not so. However, if it happens it will demonstrate a more sinister element, because rather than the riots conceivably being construed as spontaneous—which may have been the case in the past—it would show that there are forces behind the riots who are planning and preparing for such a development. That must surely be condemned outright by all hon. Members.
  There are difficulties in trying to restore confidence where it has been so badly shattered between the police and the community. It is inevitable that it will take time to rebuild the confidence. I agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) about an emphasis on the need for good communications and understanding. I am sure that he will agree that it must work in both directions—from the community to the police and from the police to the community.

  1127
  However, I wish to enter a personal caveat. Although I agree that there should be the closest possible co-operation and understanding among the police, the community and community leaders, we must guard against the creation of a special sort of lay person acting as a buffer between the police and the criminal and risking frustrating the police from carrying out their proper duties. Clear lines must be drawn and we must be certain about the difficult job of the police. We should have liaison, but not an abdication of police responsibilities.
  The police have a real and difficult duty to cope with the increase in crimes of violence. I was surprised by statistics revealed the other day that even in Dorset, which is largely a rural area and which one would not associate with such incidents, crimes of violence have risen by 112 per cent. in the past ten years. It is even more alarming that criminal damage crimes have increased by 600 per cent.
  Earlier this week my constituency daily newspaper carried the headline:
  "OAP fourth victim of mugging".
  That was the fourth victim of mugging in four days. The case was that of an elderly lady who was attacked by four teenage youths. Understandably, the secretary of the Bournemouth branch of the British Association of Retired Pensioners called for better policing and for more bobbies on the beat. It is wrong that people should be scared to go out at night.
  We should know the true position. In that sense, the publication of statistics is essential. If anyone has information that could illuminate an aspect of the problem, it should be made widely available. Therefore, I fully support the publication of statistics by the Metropolitan Police. I shall come to the point of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook in a moment, because I agree with him.
  Not only have we had the figures published by the Metropolitan Police but, as my right hon. Friend said, a Home Office research study of such crimes was recently conducted in Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham. The current issue of New Society has a full report of that study. It makes it clear that in over half the attacks some or all of the muggers were aged 20 or under. In Liverpool and Manchester white people were responsible for a greater proportion of muggings than were black people. Only in Birmingham, where there was the greatest proportion of less serious offences, did blacks predominate.
  The point that emerges from all the studies is that we must be careful what interpretation we put upon the figures and statistics. It is clear that they are, as the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said, the result of the victims' perception in most cases. They are not the result of an arrest. Therefore, careful use must be made of the figures. It is totally wrong that the publication of such statistics should be treated with the sort of banner scare headlines which much of the press adopted in relation to the recent reports from the Metropolitan Police. It does no service at all. We need to know statistics and facts; it would be wrong to conceal them. We must be able to get at the truth. There is no point in pretending that such problems do not exist.We must recognise that in their fight against violent crime the police are fighting on our behalf in the front line. Like any other body of people engaged in that type of operation, the police need backing up and we must back
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  them up. In those areas where the extremes of violence have been taking place, they need backing up with some form of quick response unit, and with effective sentencing.
  I do not believe in judicial corporal punishment, although I support corporal punishment in schools. That does no harm at all and can do a lot of good. I support capital punishment although I would not favour a referendum. I see no point in that. It would not be binding on the House in any event. Most hon. Members know the popular view on the subject and understand that. My own position has always been consistent on this. Much of the argument was resolved years ago when the initial abolition debates were won. They were reconfirmed by the 1979 vote in the House.
  I would support a call for the reintroduction of capital punishment for acts of terrorism and the murder of policemen. Without capital punishment there is every likelihood that the threshold of violence will increase and that our police will be increasingly at risk. Before long we would inevitably be led to contemplate arming our police force. I would regard that as a grave setback indeed.
  The most important way to back up our police lies with the individual citizen. The general public should he much more committed than they are to supporting the police. Responsibility lies particularly with parents. Parental authority in the home is the key to better behaviour outside it. I know that it is not easy. I have two sons at what I might call the critical age. I understand how difficult it is to exercise that parental authority.
  If parents fail to live up to their obligations—whether through laziness, indifference or ignorance, or because they are afraid to assert their authority—they will provide the material from which discontented, unruly or even aggressive behaviour can develop.
  Mr. Harry Greenway rose—
  Sir John Eden: I shall not give way, because I am anxious to continue. However, I hope that my hon. Friend will catch your eye later, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  To some extent we are all troubled—some of us greatly—by the evidence of growing violence in our society. There are many cross-currents at work. It would be foolish to ignore the fact that there are elements—notably those associated with the extreme Left—who care little for our institutions and who seek every opportunity to undermine and even to destroy them.
  However, one factor should be considered very seriously. We can only help it by influencing it, because we cannot direct it. I refer to television and to the fact that it seems to have a growing obsession with violence. Indeed, many hon. Members know that often television crews prepare the violent scenes that they then film.
  Mr. William Pitt rose—
  Sir John Eden: I shall not give way.
  Given the enormous influence that television has on impressionable minds, that is grotesquely irresponsible. Television should stop making heroes out of criminals. Unless these things are tackled fairly quickly, television—which, at its best, is a wonderful source of entertainment, information and education—could easily become the vehicle of our destruction.
  Many factors are involved in the discussion of crime, but not all of them fall directly within the responsibilities of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. In those areas

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  in which he is responsible, he has clearly acted strongly and well. The description of the debate on the Order Paper calls for
  "effective policing and the consequent reduction in crime".
  I hope that the debate will make it abundantly clear that all parties in the House are united behind the police in their difficult task.
  6.8 pm
  Mr. Charles R. Morris: I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate and I am mindful that part of the subject of the debate is effective policing methods. I should like to focus the attention of the House on the situation in my constituency, which embraces an inner city area. In my constituency there is understandable anxiety among the elderly about several recent and distressing mugging incidents. Equally, there is genuine concern about hooliganism, which has been a problem in recent times.
  But the issue that has prompted public petitions, meetings and disquiet in my constituency is the manner in which the Greater Manchester police have dealt with the 10-month-old industrial dispute affecting the Laurence Scott company at Openshaw.
  I do not need to remind the House that during the dispute to which I have referred—a dispute which arose as a result of a callous asset-stripping exercise to close the factory and put 650 skilled workers out of work—there have been three occasions when a major police presence has been established outside the factory. The first occasion was at 3 o'clock in the morning on Tuesday 18 August 1981, when about 100 policemen were positioned outside the factory after a 17-week sit-in while a sledgehammer-wielding team of bailiffs took legal repossession of the factory.
  What was interesting about the ending of the sit-in and the legal repossession of the factory in my constituency was the comment made by the under-sheriff of Lancashire in a report which he made available to the Lord Chancellor and which, in turn, the Lord Chancellor made available to me. On page 14 of the report, referring to the situation that obtained when the bailiffs entered the factory, the under-sheriff of Lancashire said:
  "The interior of the factory had been in fairly good condition and no acts of vandalism appeared to have been carried out by the work force".
  After 17 weeks of an industrial sit-in—after over four months of occupying the factory—the under-sheriff declared that there was no evidence of vandalism. He was corroborating what everyone in Openshaw recognised—that the workers involved in this industrial dispute were not mindless militants or industrial wreckers. They were decent skilled engineers who had invested a lifetime of skill in the factory and who were demonstrating about being arbitrarily put out of work. That was the first occasion when 100 policemen were positioned around the Laurence Scott factory.
  The second occasion was on 4 November 1981, when the House will recall that 100 to 150 mounted and foot policemen were again positioned around the factory while two helicopters came in at rooftop height to land within the precincts of the factory. The helicopters were coming in over a heavily urbanised area over terraced houses which stood cheek by jowl with the factory, and over a
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  primary school which is located within a stone's throw of the factory. The helicopters came in for the purpose of landing six hooded and goggled individuals to airlift machinery out of the factory. I questioned the police at that time about whether they had checked the legality of the helicopter operation before positioning 100 to 150 mounted and foot police around the factory. I was assured that the police had checked.
  I then went to the Civil Aviation Authority to check whether there had been any breach of air traffic regulations. The director-general of the operations division of the CAA wrote to me on 18 November-14 days after the incident—and said:
  "it has not yet been established whether or not there appears to have been a breach of the air navigation legislation in the flights conducted by these two aircraft".
  If the CAA could not give an assurance that there had been no breach of the air regulations, how could the police have been honest and correct in saying that they had checked before positioning 100 to 150 mounted and foot police in support of the operation?
  It is incidents such as this, involving grave errors of judgment, which call into question the relationship between the police and the community.
  The third occasion on which we saw a massive police operation outside the Laurence Scott factory was on 16 February 1982. The massive operation constituted a police presence of over 300 officers outside the factory at various times over a period of 10 days. In response to telephone calls from my constituency I went up to see the operation myself on the following day, Wednesday 17 February.
  In case I might be accused of exaggerating the situation that I saw, and in case I might be confronted by hon. Members who might question my figures, I shall quote from the figures that were made available by the chief constable to the police committee in Manchester. For Wednesday 17 February the chief constable reported that the police presence outside the factory was 300. The number of pickets who were identified outside the factory was given as 30 by the chief constable.
  My reaction, when I saw the situation with which I was confronted, was that this was manifestly an "operation overkill" in terms of police presence. What is even more staggering is that when some of the pickets followed the trucks that were carrying the machinery that had been stripped from the factory by the management of the company as far as the motorway, they found that policemen had been positioned on the bridges over the motorway. A police presence on that scale, I believe, should be challenged and questioned.
  Mr. Greenway: Was the factory occupied legally or illegally?
  Mr. Morris: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not listened as attentively as usual. When I was talking about the repossession of the factory I used the phrase "legal repossession of the factory". When the massive police presence of 300 officers was positioned around the factory there were no pickets within the factory.
  There were two major errors of judgment on the part of the Greater Manchester police. Those errors of judgment were bound to have a serious impact on police-community relations not only in my constituency but in Manchester generally. I have referred to the first error—the police co-operation with the Laurence Scott management in the landing of the two helicopters within

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  the precincts of the factory. Police involvement in that operation was taken without a second thought being given to the potential hazard to my constituency nearby, or without checking whether the helicopter flight breached air traffic regulations.
  But what is particularly worrying is that my constituents have experienced three major police operations. They had their sleep disturbed when the bailiffs took repossession. They had their children subjected to needless anxiety when the helicopters came in over the local school. They also had the massive police presence on 16 February. Yet those same constituents are the people who will have to meet the bill of £100,000 which the chief constable now calculates will arise from those operations.
  That is the factor that is disturbing my constituents and which has provoked the petitions, the public meetings and public disquiet. Some hon. Members might suggest that these are matters that are proper to the police committee of the Greater Manchester council. I can tell the House what happened when a councillor in my constituency sought to raise on the Greater Manchester police committee the police operations in support of the helicopter operations. He was shouted down by the chief constable. He, an elected member, was shouted down by the appointed chief constable. When the chairman and Labour members of the Committee sought to elicit information as to the cost of the massive police presence, the chief constable argued that the questions were irregular: £100,000 of police expenditure and the questions were claimed to be irregular. We now have the figure of £100,000. In the city of Manchester the budget for police operations last year was £120 million, and the rate of serious crime has gone up by 15·7 per cent. These are serious matters.
  What is of even greater importance is the friction now manifest between the police committee of the Greater Manchester Council, the police authority and the chief constable. In Manchester at the present time we seem to have a situation that a psychiatrist would describe as a role reversal problem. We have a chief constable who makes speeches which are characteristic of a politician; and elected, earnest politicians who are worried about crime in the city. That is the reality of the situation in the city of Manchester.
  I believe that the Home Secretary should consider sending an inspector of constabulary to the city of Manchester to report on the present situation of the police authority and its chief officer. I believe that the police are entitled to support in their role of protecting the community, in identifying and prosecuting those involved in crime.
  Equally, I believe that we have a great police force in Manchester, and I speak more in sorrow than in anger in the criticisms which I have made in my speech. I hope that the Minister, in replying to the debate, will give serious consideration to my suggestion that an inspector of constabulary should be despatched to Manchester to report on the situation I have outlined to the House.
  6.25 pm
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: This debate has arisen because of widespread public anxiety over the levels of crime and violence. We should pursue it with a sense of perspective. We have a problem of crime and violence, but we do not have a crisis. I do not believe that it is helpful in any way for anyone to suggest that we are
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  confronted with a crisis, either in police public relations or in the volume or quality of crime and violence that we face.
  The reason why there is a problem can be stated simply. There has been a dramatic increase in the numbers of crimes committed. There has been a serious decline in t he proportion of crimes cleared up. There has been an important, and in some ways alarming, change in the nature and character of crime.
  Crime has become much more violent. Many more firearms are being carried and used, and very many more innocent people and more police officers are being seriously injured.
  Crime has also become much more complex. A single fraud case in the City can take as many as 250,000 hours of police time to unravel.
  Crime is also involving many more young people, both as victims and as perpetrators, and, sadly, many more old people as victims of violent crime.
  We also face an escalation in the threat to public order. This challenge has taken on disturbing dimensions. There is an industrial dimension. We saw it at Grunwick. Perhaps we saw it too in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Morris). There is certainly a political dimension to some of the threats to public order.
  There are people on the extremes of politics, to the Right as well as to the Left, who are anxious to tear down the fabric of public and social order. We have also seen people, who ought to know better, setting an extremely bad example: members of the GLC breaking the law; senior members of trade unions proposing to break the law; and the suggestions that emanate from places from which they ought not to emanate that the police operate as armies of occupation.
  There is a racial dimension too, in the latest threats to public order; a racial dimension that is a tragedy for this country. Finally there is an international dimension. which can been seen in the impact of terrorism. I fear—indeed I predict—that we shall have more of that, because there are in the world today—I state it as a fact—a number of evil men who are assassins for hire. They ply their trade across frontiers, and we shall see more of them in Britain.
  Why all these things have happened is a subject so vast that it would be wrong to attempt today to detain the House by discussing it. Each hon. Member will have his own view—unemployment, inflation, television and the collapse of discipline in the home and in the school. But of one thing I am sure, and it is that, however this problem escalated, it was not fundamentally caused by the police. But the police are at the sharp end. If they fail, we are all at risk. Therefore, the police are entitled to look to this House and to the Government for help and support.
  The best friend of law enforcement that we have had during the period that I have had the good fortune to be connected with the Police Federation—and I have worked with five Home Secretaries fairly intimately—has been the present Home Secretary. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his speech today. I was delighted that he was able to pledge to bring forward some—not all, but some—of the new powers proposed for the police by the Royal Commission. There will have to be safeguards because the Royal Commission document was a balanced proposal. I was also glad to hear what he said about juries. These are welcome steps forward.
  Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk rose—
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I am sure the hon. Member will wish to catch Mr. Speaker's eye, and it would be better if we got on.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has five specific achievements to his credit. He has reversed the disastrous exodus of experienced police officers who, in the late 1970s, were leaving the forces in droves. The right hon. Member for Sparbrook spoke about putting the bobby back on the beat. But it was his Government who took the bobby off the beat; indeed they pushed him out of the service. Labour lost 7,000 policemen. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has recruited 9,000 policemen. That is how one puts the bobby back on the beat.
  My right hon. Friend has built up the strength of every force in the country, notably our urban forces, which five years ago were one-fifth below their establishement. My right hon. Friend has recruited about 3,000 men to the Metropolitan Police, which is now stronger and better equipped than ever before, as it needs to be. My right hon. Friend has also boosted morale by paying the police very much better and never failing to give them support when they are unfairly attacked.
  These are only the visible efforts that the Home Secretary has made on behalf of the police service. Less well known but no less important is his support inside Whitehall for better anti-riot gear, more effective training, co-operation with European police in anti-terrorist work and the provision of more modern equipment, especially in telecommunications.
  On the personnel side, policemen are grateful for my right hon. Friend's support over federation representation in national and local policy making on most law enforcement matters, for his backing over the sale of police authority housing to policemen who want to buy houses, and for the never-ending battle that he fights with the Treasury on police pay and conditions. My right hon. Friend has become the personally best-liked Home Secretary that the police, as a whole, have had this generation.
  I also believe that we have a first-class Home Secretary. It is not enough, however, to have a good Home Secretary and a supportive House of Commons. What the police need is more powers. I believe that the Royal Commission got the balance right and that the additional power of stop and search, the unified power of arrest and the ability to detain in certain circumstances, for example where there is refusal to give a name and address, are right. I hope that these powers will be provided as soon as possible, if the House agrees.
  It is right too that the courts should impose sterner penalties, particularly where violence is involved. I welcome very much what has been stated today about juries.
  The police also have a duty to look at the massive increase in money that is now spent on them. When this Government came to office, police and law enforcement budgets were about £1 billion. Now the amount is about £2·25 billion. The police have a duty to make sure that we get value for that money, which brings me immediately to the question of the police use of resources.
  The deployment of police officers has attracted a good deal of attention today. The simple cry has gone up—I do not doubt that it will be repeated throughout the press tomorrow—"Put the bobby back on the beat." I was a
  1134
  Member of the House at the time when panda cars were introduced. It is surprising how many hon. Members were saying then that it was time to give up the old-fashioned nonsense of foot patrols and to give the police the modern technology of the two-way radio and panda cars.
  Fashions change! But it is far too simple to offer the British public a solution called "bobby on the beat". That is where he needs to be. It is equally important, however, to ensure that when there is a demonstration or a football match, when youngsters in some circumstances use CB radios to bring together a large crowd, the police should be able rapidly to concentrate a large number of officers to maintain the Queen's peace. There needs to be a mobile reserve. I hope that the Minister, in his reply, will beware of falling into the trap of suggesting that the bobby on the beat will solve the problem. The bobby on the beat is essential but there needs also to be a rapid reaction force and the whole complex of police powers and abilities without which one cannot fight crime.
  I believe that the police can, and should, switch more of their resources from traffic policing to dealing with crime. A large traffic empire has been built in the police. It should not be dismantled, because cars and crime go together. None the less, the experience of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which reduced its traffic division from 800 men to 600 men, while the force itself was expanded from 3,000 to 8,000, has shown that one can handle traffic with fewer cars. The police, as a whole, should examine that experience. I believe that they may be able to redeploy 4 or 5 per cent. of their total resources away from traffic and towards the apprehension of thieves, muggers and vandals.
  Another point is training. Lord Scarman was right in saying that six months are required to turn a raw recruit into an officer who can face the challenges that confront policemen. But training is an expensive business. It requires facilities that we do not possess. It requires training officers who will also need to be selected and trained to do the job. I hope that the Minister will have some comments to make on where resources are to be found to increase the length of training of the police.
  Far too often individual police forces use different tactics. When there are riots and mutual aid is essential, policemen come from many different forces to contain a major threat to the Queen's peace. But some of them may have one tactical doctrine and another group a different one. It is not always possible to weld them together effectively to control riots. This raises all kinds of problems about compatibility of radio equipment and the willingness of various police authorities to purchase compatible equipment. They are not doing so. It is time that they did. This is one of the jobs that Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary should be proceeding with quickly.
  A further question is the vulnerability of much police equipment. I can think of nothing worse than large numbers of police being sent to places like Brixton in coaches that have glass windows. More policeman can be injured inside the coach as a result of shattered windows than are injured outside the coach when they have debussed to deploy. The Home Office needs to examine the whole question of vulnerability of police transport and the provision of suitable equipment to those who must protect us against riots.
  I should like to refer briefly to chief officers. I have read Mr. Anderton's speech. It is long and detailed. I have read

  1135
  his report on the Moss Side riots. I commend it to the House as an excellent document. I have on numerous occasions read Mr. Anderton's other commentaries on our social and moral conditions. I regard him as a fearless, eloquent and very efficient chief officer. But I am bound to say that it is time that the "Andy and Aldy show" was brought to an end. Chief officers have every right to speak out, but I believe that some of them are rapidly becoming a bore.
  I add this further point. All elected politicians, whether Ministers or Back Benchers, have long understood that our future and, indeed, the future of the country is in the hands not only of Parliament and Ministers, but of hundreds of senior civil servants, the chairmen of nationalised industries and powerful figures in other walks of life. I believe that it is only recently, however, that most politicians have tumbled to the fact that the tranquillity of our cities, and the whole question of race relations, industrial relations, and so many other things, are in the hands of about 24 of our urban chief constables. They carry on their backs a grave responsibility.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: If that is right—I accept that it might be—is it not dangerous that 24 men should carry that burden without any duty to be accountable to their locally elected representatives?
  Mr. Griffiths: Chief officers do have a large measure of accountability to the local police authorities who appoint them and who can, with the consent of the Home Secretary, sack them.
  The question is whether all of our chief police officers are up to the awesome job that we ask them to do on our behalf. I know many of them. Some are excellent and some are very good, but there are a number who, in my judgment, are not adequate to deal with the challenges that we place upon them. The process by which they are selected and trained is badly in need of reform. There is a strong case for requiring all chief officers and their deputies to undergo more in-service training and refresher courses in the law, about whose frequent changes some of them can be distinctly hazy. They need more coaching in police-public relations.
  The Association of Chief Police Officers needs a better secretariat. It is the body on which the Government rely mainly for professional advice about policing, yet in terms of research facilities, professional support and political nous ACPO can no longer hold a candle to the Police Federation. It is for that reason that on many occasions, when discussing riot gear, police complaints, age of entry into the service and even pay and conditions, it has shown itself to be a collection of prima donnas. It badly needs improvement.
  I end with some of the things that the police do not need. They do not need vigilantes. "Have a go", yes, but "Do-it-yourself policing", absolutely not. I hope that there will be great hesitation before we look for vigilantes. Secondly, the police do not need a new racial offence in their discipline book. A debate is about to take place on this but it would be the rankest discrimination against one occupation if that racial offence were to be imposed upon the police service.
  The police do not need the vast machinery of the complaints industry. There must be a fair and proper procedure for dealing with complaints against the police, but I am hopeful that on the basis of the report that my right
  1136
  hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) and his Committee will shortly be making the Home Secretary will put his proposals to the House very quickly. The Government must not leave the police in a state of uncertainty about the complaints procedure.
  I believe that the House will agree with a great deal of what the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said. I certainly want no quarrel with him. But I hope that he recollects that the police were taken off the beat and put into pandas by the Government of which he was a member, and that the big forces were created by that same Government. I am glad that he now accepts that the approach to policing is now changing. The police require a stability of management and a bipartisan approach to their problems.
  I want to raise two points with the right hon. Gentleman. I was sorry indeed—I hope that on reflection he will change his view—when he said that elected police committees should decide on the type of equipment that should be available to the police to enable them to maintain public order. He knows as well as I do that a Left-wing police authority might decide that under no circumstances should there be anti-riot gear, CS gas and things of that kind. But in certain circumstances that could be a recipe for more police casualties and for local people to be terrorised because the police were unable to suppress a riot in their area. It would be a recipe too for an open city, where shops could burn and people could be terrorised because the police had been denied the means of maintaining the Queen's peace. I hope that he did not mean that. I hope he will take it back, but, unfortunately, that is what he said.
  One of the great pressures upon us too is terrorism. I believe that it was damaging to the police service when, on the advice of the right hon. Gentleman, the Opposition, whose support for the police is just as important as that of the Government, abstained on the extension of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1976 the other night. That Act has enabled the police to keep alive people who might otherwise be dead and to catch terrorists who would have bombed and murdered. I believe that it was a sad day when, contrary to the wishes of previous Labour Home Secretaries and a Labour Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Opposition abstained on a crucial means of maintaining public order.
  6.48 pm
  Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: The Home Secretary asked for a more measured and realistic approach to this subject. In his concluding remarks he talked about the need for balance and responsibility and an eschewing of those wild and exaggerated notions that we have had before. That is precisely the kind of attitude that one would expect from any responsible Home Secretary, and one that we would want every Member in the House to accept. It was not always like that. There was a time when Conservative right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, and not least the Police Federation, adopted a far more partisan, hysterical and exaggerated tone than they seem to be able to adopt today. It was the Home Secretary speaking on 15 October 1976, when both crime and unemployment were lower, who said in emotional terms:
  "A Government that cannot protect its own citizens from attack in the streets of its towns and cities, that cannot protect property from damage, or homes from intrusion, has failed to live up to the basic duties of Government".

  1137
  If that were true then, and it was not of course, it is equally true and valid today when the levels both of crime and unemployment have increased considerably.
  The Tory Party's attitude to law and order has been littered with a trail of deceptions of the people. If one looks at their attitude prior to and during the last general election and their famous Saatchi & Saatchi advertisements on law and order, the figures were designed to convey the impression that in some peculiar and mysterious way serious crime had increased during the lifetime of the last Labour Government and that, in some equally mysterious way, the Labour Government were responsible for the increase.
  Looking back, none of us would wish to make either of those accusations. I think that we would agree that the Labour Government of 1974–79, the present Government—and the 1970–74 Conservative Government—have little to boast about in regard to reducing the level of crime. If we want to play that game and look at the figures, we see that between 1970 and 1974, when a Conservative Government were in power, serious crime rose by over 25 per cent. From 1974 to 1978, the lifetime of the Labour Government, it went up by less—by 22 per cent.—and it declined in the election year of 1979. But during the lifetime of the present Government, from 1979 to 1981, serious crime has increased by 24 per cent. So under the Tories the incidence of crime has increased more in two years than in the entire five years of the last Labour Government. We do not hear many Conservative hon. Members making that point, though they spoke vehemently and vociferously in 1978 and 1979.
  The Home Secretary and members of the Government have been responsible for similar deceptions of the public on law and order in other areas. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) goes on a great deal about the ways in which the present Home Secretary has enforced law and order. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman has not done very well, on the evidence of the figures. Serious crime has increased by that dramatic 24 per cent. in two years when we have admittedly had more police. They are better paid and have more and better expensive equipment, yet the clear-up rate has declined.
  The Metropolitan Police, for example, caught fewer criminals last year than in 1972—3,500 fewer serious offenders. That is not a proud record for the police authority for the Metropolitan area, who happens to be the Home Secretary, to boast about. I notice that not one Conservative right hon. or hon. Member wishes to defend that record.
  In the past two years under the present Government the police have clearly been less effective than we are entitled to expect them to be and than they had been previously. That raises serious questions about the relationship between the police and the public. As we know, and as the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds will confirm, the police rely heavily on the public providing them with information in order to detect and catch criminals. They rely on public trust and confidence to exact that information. The decline in efficiency of the Metropolitan Police in particular in the past two years may have something to do with the clear, perceptible decline in
  1138
  public confidence in them, and therefore a greater unwillingness to confide in them or to provide them with information about crime.
  What is most disturbing about the Conservative Party is the way in which it has misled the public, suggesting that in some way crime is susceptible to easy, simple solutions. The Home Secretary has been as culpable in this respect as the Prime Minister. For example, it was the right hon. Gentleman who told the Tory Party conference that the Government would introduce the "short, sharp, shock". He said in the House on 27 February 1978 that that would be for "hardened … thugs", and gave the impression that the introduction of a new, experimental regime at the two detention centres—now four—would almost at a stroke deal with the incidence of serious violence on our streets, deal with the young muggers and the violent thugs. Those were the words that the right hon. Gentleman used; that was the impression that he conveyed.
  As we all know, the experiment had been tried before and had failed. We know now that it is failing again. We know that sending young boys to detention centres in no way reforms or rehabilitates them. To suggest to the public that sending them to detention centres or subjecting them to short, sharp, shocks will reduce the incidence of juvenile or young adult crime, or reduce crime generally, is deliberately and irresponsibly to mislead the public. That is what the Home Secretary has done. The right hon. Gentleman has done it again, reiterating it today with mention of the residential care order, which is provided for in the Criminal Justice Bill, now going through Committee.
  Admittedly, the Bill has been watered down substantially compared with the proposal enshrined in the Conservative manifesto, watered down under pressure from a variety of organisations, not least those representing the probation officers and social workers. The Home Secretary has had to recognise that the more brutal methods advocated in the Conservative manifesto cannot be implemented. But here again he is suggesting that giving magistrates the specific power to impose a residential care order on juveniles, to place them in the care of a local authority and in a residential institution, is a major contribution to combating juvenile crime. It is not. The Minister of State knows that it is not. For a start, those juveniles can be fostered out, not kept in a local authority residential institution. They will not be kept off the streets. Indeed, the order will lead to a greater increase in juvenile crime, rather than a decrease, if we are to believe all the experts.
  The Home Secretary pretends to the public that he is dealing with crime by building more prisons. He compounded that offence again today by going through the figures of new prison places to be provided as a result of the decisions of his Administration. They are new places, yes, but they are not additional places. They are not additional to what exists already, but are to replace those which are falling into disuse and those which will do so in the next 10 years. I do not want there to be additional places. I want there to be fewer places.
  The Home Secretary does his case no good, and does not help to sustain credibility in our penal system or our criminal justice system, by pretending that he is combating crime by increasing the number of prison places. The right hon. Gentleman knows—he has said it often enough, and he has reaffirmed and endorsed what the Lord Chief

  1139
  Justice, Lord Lane, said in the other place yesterday—that putting people into prison does not help; it does not rehabilitate or reform them, nor does it reduce the level of crime. If that is so, why is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the building of extra prison places will in some peculiar way deal with the problem?
  Some of the Home Secretary's hon. Friends have resorted to more populist causes, such as whipping and capital punishment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We spent six hours last week debating whipping, in the Committee considering the Criminal Justice Bill, at the behest of hon. Friends of those hon. Members who say "Oh". It was not the Opposition that tabled the amendment. It was not the Opposition that wanted to debate the matter.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that Mr. Speaker said that he did not want references to be made to what is going on in the Standing Committee.
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: I heard Mr. Speaker say that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I also heard, as you did not, the Home Secretary spend 10 minutes on all the proposals in the Bill. He mentioned every one to which I have just referred. If the right hon. Gentleman is enabled to give publicity to the provisions that he chooses to select from a Bill that is being considered in Committee, I think it only fair and proper for Opposition hon. Members to comment on those provisions.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: It is in order to refer to the content of the Bill, but there should not be references to the proceedings in Committee.
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: I shall not press the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because it is not important. I merely point out that at the Conservatives' behest, not ours, we spent six hours on a barbaric, gut-reaction irrelevance that would in no way deal with the level of crime. That is the kind of panacea that Tory Members, in their irresponsible, glib fashion, are offering the public, when they know full well that there is no chance of introducing it and that even if it were introduced it would not reduce by one iota the level of serious crime.
  The same applies to hanging. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, who speaks for the Police Federation so often and at great length, talks about not making exaggerated and hysterical comments. What about the hysterical reaction of the Police Federation and its advertisements in the newspapers, with its suggestion that serious crime can be dealt with by a return to capital punishment? Capital punishment would not be available for mugging, robbery or violence anyway, nor are the supporters of capital punishment suggesting that it should be. It is irresponsible to mislead people and to exploit the public's fear about crime to suggest that these measures can and will be introduced and that they will deal with serious crime.
  The Home Secretary has gone still further today by announcing that stop and search powers should be given to the police. He has also announced powers to keep criminals off juries. We will all presumably endorse them. In no conceivable way will they reduce the level of serious crime. They will not do that. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said, the stop and search powers will do nothing but further alienate the police from the public, on whose trust and consent effective and efficient policing depends.
  1140
  If the Home Secretary is serious, as I suspect he is, about reducing crime, he should be restraining his right hon. and hon. Friends—not least the Prime Minister—who seek to make political capital out of law and order. There is no real political capital to be made from it. As the Home Secretary said, we should be talking about this in a measured and realistic fashion. We should attempt to defuse the hysteria generated about law and order and acknowledge that only 3 per cent. of all serious crime is violent. We should also acknowledge that crime is not inexorably increasing. Serious crime declined—admittedly during the previous Labour Government—in 1977, 1978 and 1979. The Home Secretary should also relate what Age Concern said to the Home Office in its research report published today; there is no real objective basis for the fear expressed by the public in some of the most scurrilous newspapers—The Sun, the Daily Express and the Daily Mail—about street crime.
  The Home Office research study on so-called "mugging" in Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham showed that muggings are infrequent, not generally done by blacks, on the whole not on the elderly and that those who are mugged do not in the main sustain serious physical injuries. The impression created and sustained by Conservative Members and their friends in police services that mugging is a serious threat to every law-abiding citizen does not bear comparison with the facts.
  The Home Secretary must acknowledge—as he did not, compared with the forceful and forthright terms used by my right hon. Friend—that the most effective and important deterrent to crime is the certainty of a criminal being detected, caught and convicted. For that, police need the support of the public. Therefore, my right hon. Friend was right to place much emphasis and importance upon community policing.
  Community policing is not just restricted to Devon or Cornwall. As my right hon. Friend said, it has worked effectively in Handsworth, Myrtle Gardens in Liverpool, the Grange Estate in Grimsby and, as Lord Scarman said, in the Stockwell Park estate in Lambeth. The police authority chief constable in Lancashire is perhaps one of the best, most efficient and sensible. Therefore, he is never on the television or in the newspapers. The Skelmersdale co-ordinated police experiment, evaluated by John Brown at the department of social policy of the Cranfield Institute of Technology, showed that the community policing introduced in 1977 by the deputy chief constable demonstrated convincingly and clearly that community policing worked in reducing the level of crime. For example, reported crime declined in Skelmersdale by 3·7 per cent. in 1979 whereas, for the rest of the Lancashire police force area, reported crime increased by 5·6 per cent. I hasten to add that Skelmersdale has the highest unemployment rate in the United Kingdom—21·8 per cent. It is a problem area where there are enormous social, educational and unemployment problems. That area is not representative of Lancashire and, therefore, it was chosen for community policing. That policing has reduced the level of crime.
  Mr. John Wheeler rose—
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Before giving way, I will give another example that I know the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler) is interested in. Breaking and

  1141
  entering offences decreased by a massive 21·6 per cent. in that same year, as opposed to a 4·9 per cent. increase in the rest of Lancashire. Hon. Members can consider other figures from the experiment, However, just those figures clearly demonstrate the importance of reducing the increased rates of crime and the incidence of crime by sensible and constructive community policing.
  Mr. Wheeler: I have listened to the hon. Gentleman's information carefully. He will agree it demonstrates that the whole concept of preventive policing, which we adopted in Britain as long ago as 1829, is successful. Will he not agree that that is the way to contain crime? Do not his figures also show that crime has little to do with unemployment?
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: I am grateful for the first part of the hon. Gentleman's intervention, which I certainly support and endorse. However, I am not sure about his last point on unemployment on which he presumably wishes to take issue with his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Perhaps more important than any other measures, the Home Secretary should be dealing with causes of crime, whatever they may be. The causes of crime have their origins far more in the social inadequacies and inequalities that disfigure society. They have certainly had a great deal to do with our education system and, not least, with unemployment.
  If the hon. Member for Paddington and his hon. Friends dispute the correlation between high levels of unemployment and the level of crime, I can only refer them to the Home Secretary's statement on 27 February 1978. He said:
  "There has been a dramatic rise in unemployment among boys and girls. That is the responsibility of this Government. Let no one have any doubt about the danger that that has created in terms of crimes of all sorts, violence and vandalism. If boys and girls do not obtain jobs when they leave school, they feel that society has no need of them. If they feel that, they do not see any reason why they should take part in that society and comply with its rules. That is what is happening, and, wherever we sit in this House, that is what we have to recognise."—[Official Report, 27 February 1978; Vol. 945, c. 40.]
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook also quoted that and I agree with it. The Home Secretary was speaking when unemployment among school leavers was 49,000 in February 1978, and in November 1982, it is 134,000. If unemployment was then attributable in some part to the increase in crime, it is certainly a causal factor today.
  The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds knows well that the Police Federation acknowledged those facts. After all, the Police Federation said that it would be foolish to deny the causal link between youth, crime and unemployment. That federation has said on many occasions that its job is made more difficult by social deprivation, bad housing and, particularly, increases in juvenile and youth unemployment.
  The Conservatives made great play at the last election, as they do now, about being the law and order party and wanting to defend essential and fundamental liberties in Britain. They may wish to do that, but they bear a heavy responsibility, first, for deceiving and misleading members of the community that there is a simple, easy and glib solution to the increase in crime, when there is not. They also bear a heavy responsibility for having been
  1142
  largely responsible, through the stoking up of unemployment, poverty and destitution in Britain, for the increase in crime that followed. If the Government are serious in wishing to protect fellow citizens, they should now embark on a massive programme of education, social and welfare help and, above all, putting back to work all those members of our community who are involuntarily and unnecessarily unemployed.
  7.9 pm
  Mr. Den Dover: It gives me the greatest pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk). I rise to his bait because, while he might consider that capital and corporal punishment are not the answers to rising crime figures, I submit that they are. During the past few weeks, it has been rammed down my throat by my constituents and people in the North-West at large that law and order is the key issue today. Their immediate gut reaction is to call for the return of capital punishment.
  We heard, in the two opening speeches, need for the public at large and the police to come together. In the past week or ten days, the public at large have called for capital punishment. My local paper, the Lancashire Evening Post, carried out a survey in the past week showing that 96 per cent. of its readers wanted the return of capital punishment. The Police Federation is also calling for its return. Therefore, the public at large and the police want the return of the ultimate deterrent.
  Next Monday we shall be debating our nuclear deterrent. How can the Government believe that the nuclear deterrent will stop the Russians from launching a nuclear attack if they do not believe that capital punishment will deter people from carrying out armed robberies, murders and acts of terrorism? I sincerely believe that we need capital punishment if we are to crack down on crime.
  We also need corporal punishment. I was brought up in Lancashire in the 1930s and 1940s when the birch was widely used. My school friends lived in fear of it. We heard of the lashings that took place, and we made sure that we never came near that sort of punishment. I think that is the answer to vandalism, muggings and street crimes, particularly by the youth of today. I am disappointed that the amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill to bring back corporal punishment was not accepted.
  I want to kick out of the window the figures quoted during Prime Minister's Question Time last Thursday and by the hon. Member for Ormskirk a few minutes ago. The hon. Gentleman tried to show that in two-and-a half years of Conservative Government crime figures had risen at a higher rate than under the previous Labour Government, or, indeed, the Conservative Government of 1970 to 1974.
  I have made a detailed study of all the Home Office statistics going back over the past 12 years. I am sure no right hon. or hon. Member in the Chamber will contradict the footnotes to all those figures and tables. For whatever crime is shown in the tables, there is a footnote that clearly states that the figures from January 1980 onwards cannot be directly related to earlier years. Therefore, I strongly protest about the use or abuse of the figures.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The change in statistics about which the hon. Gentleman speaks was largely concerned with the definition of larceny. On the major issues of crime such as violence, the figures are strictly comparable.
  Mr. Dover: I challenge the hon. Gentleman to go immediately to the Library to study the statistics. In every table he will see that footnote. It is not just for larceny.
  I object to this misuse of figures. I consider that the Government's record is just as good as that of any previous Administration in the past 12 years.
  There is a strong need for adequate deterrents. Magistrates in my area tell me—and I hope that the Minister will contradict this if it is not the case—that they are told "Do not give prison sentences; give suspended sentences. Do not send people to detention centres as there are not the places available." The magistrates want adequate numbers of places in prisons and detention centres. If such guidelines have been issued to magistrates, it is appalling in today's world of rising crime figures. I hope that the Minister will put the record straight.
  7.15 pm
  Mr. Edward Lyons: No interest group or political party has a complete set of answers for deterring crime or for reforming, treating or rehabilitating offenders. That statement acknowledges that the causes of crime are exceedingly complex and difficult to control.I start with the proposition that crime increases when conviction rates fall. Another way of putting that is that we cannot punish those we cannot catch. The first matter to which we must address ourselves is how we can increase the apprehension rate.
  It is obvious that capital punishment is irrelevant to that quest. Capital punishment relates not to the generality of crime, which is on the increase, or to offences of mugging or burglary which particularly disturb most of the population in their day-to-day lives. I think that the police were ill advised to begin a publicity campaign asking for the return of capital punishment for all murders. They know, as does anyone concerned with the law, that most murders are domestic. That is why I was singularly unimpressed by the Home Secretary's figures about the high rates of arrest and conviction of those who have committed murders. It would be surprising if most people who committed murders—husbands, wives, mothers, sons and daughters—were not arrested.
  What is alarming about the figures for crime is that crimes such as burglary are being committed more and more successfully and the risk of apprehension becomes less and less.
  Quite properly, tribute has been paid to the Home Secretary because of the increase in the number of police by 8,000 or more since 1979. I also pay tribute to the Home Secretary but the truth is that despite that increase the apprehension rate is still falling. I am afraid that that must mean that we have still not enough police. Lord Gardiner, in the House of Lords yesterday, made that very point. Until we can bring up the rate of apprehension for crimes we must try to obtain more police.
  However, that does not relieve the police from the efficient use of manpower. There was a criticism in the report of Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary on the Yorkshire Ripper case that senior police officers were not equipped or trained to deal with major inquiries. They had not been trained in the techniques of management on that scale. Clearly there is something wrong with the training of our police officers. It may be that the police force has not been attractive enough for sufficient people of a high calibre so that we obtain the highest overall quality of
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  senior police officers. Therefore, we must examine how to achieve a high quality of recruits as well as the appropriate number.
  It is clear that police pay has to keep up with inflation and has to ensure not only that enough people come forward but enough of high quality. We must be careful to ensure that we do not ever, as Lord Scarman said yesterday, have to turn towards the military and use it against the British people. The police must be able to protect the public and they certainly need our support.
  In a multiracial society—indeed, in a society that is not multiracial—consent is required. It has been mentioned today that the Home Secretary proposes to eliminate from juries those who have previous convictions attracting sentences of more than three months. One goes along with that, but when people on juries feel alienated from the police they will listen sympathetically to attacks on the police—for example, in relation to the way that the pace have obtained a confession—and they will be more willing to acquit if they are antagonistic to the police.
  I would hazard a guess that more unjust acquittals arise from that sort of attitude by jurors than from the presence on the jury of people with previous convictions. There is no alternative but for the police to seek to win the consent of the community for the way they police, and to have good relations with the community. If they fail to do that, there will be more acquittals of the guilty that should not take place.
  There is already a feeling in the courts that certain types of juror are more likely than others to believe a lying story about a confession having been extorted under duress and to acquit the defendant. It is therefore essential for the police to have good community relations.
  Ethnic diversity in the community means that there must be ethnic diversity in the police force. It is essential to pursue a strong recruiting campaign to secure a multiracial police force for a multiracial society. Otherwise, the police will be regarded as a white establishment. That would be no good at all. If insufficient suitable recruits come forward from ethnic minorities in London, for example, there should be a strong attempt to recruit in the provinces where more recruits might be obtained who could then be lured to London by suitable incentives.
  The statistics published by the Metropolitan Police are an unfortunate phenomenon. If statistics of this kind are published, why are other statistics about other types of offence not published? Why should not statistics be published about types of crime in which ethnic minorities are far less prominent than the indigenous population? The problem with the statistics is that they are read casually and people can gain the impression that many of the Asian community are involved in muggings. I suspect that in reality the percentage of Asians committing that crime is far smaller than that of the white population. Much harm is therefore done. This new concept of selecting only one crime and dividing up responsibility for it on a racial basis is damaging and invidious and causes misconceptions. I hope that it will not happen again.
  When I listened to the Home Secretary talk about the statistics and how he authorised them, I could not help thinking of the remarks of Lord Lane, the Lord Chief Justice, yesterday when he said that statistics are "mostly misleading" and "very largely unintelligible." That is a

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  commentary on the course of action pursued by the Metropolitan Police and the Home Secretary on this occasion. I hope that it will never happen again.
  Sensitive and imaginative policing is definitely required, as is a reasonable relationship with the young, especially in inner cities. Probation officers have not been mentioned so far, but there is a role for them and for social workers. There is a definite need for a better environment in the inner city areas, the achievement of which requires more resources. There should be more job training and more jobs. Once again we come back to the effects of unemployment. It must be obvious that idle hands are more likely to find mischievous things to do.
  Lord Lane also said yesterday that prison never did anyone any good. That is the view of the Lord Chief Justice of England. He went on to say that people who have committed certain types of offence must, of course, be sent to prison.
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: Is it not clear from the context that the Lord Chief Justice did not intend to say what the hon. and learned Member suggests? The Lord Chief Justice went on to make a comparison with the old idea that short prison sentences were a bad thing and to say how times had changed. Clearly that is either a misprint or it is not what he intended to say. What the Lord Chief Justice appears to have intended to say was that long prison sentences never did anyone any good. If what the hon. and learned Gentleman says had been the Lord Chief Justice's intention, it would make nonsense of the rest of the speech.
  Mr. Lyons: I do not agree with a word of what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. He should give the Lord Chief Justice credit for knowing what he was about when he made his speech. He said that, although prison sentences did not do anyone any good, there must be sentences—sometimes long sentences—in some situations. He went on to say that often a shorter sentence will achieve the same effect as a longer sentence, so that it is possible on certain cases to dispense with longer sentences. The Lord Chief Justice is quite right. Prisons tend to be schools for crime, especially when prisoners are three to a cell for a long time. The last vestiges of self-respect go and people emerge with increased skills in crime.
  The penal system is desperately short of resources. The Lord Chief Justice is an advocate of short sentences. Not all judges agree with him. As it costs £10,000 a year to keep a person in prison, if a judge who shares the standards and views of the Lord Chief Justice is sentencing people, rather than another judge with different views in similar cases, the benefit to the taxpayer during a year could be about £500,000 in savings on extra prison time. That demonstrates the importance of giving judges proper training in sentencing, quite apart from the need to keep out of prison those who can sensibly be kept out.
  Mr. Greenway: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that one of the great problems with prisons is that what prisoners who are two, three or four to a cell have in common is crime? Does he further agree that one way of producing something more sensible in common would be an improved programme of education?
  Mr. Lyons: No one can disagree with that proposition. I quite agree: there should be more education. But if prisoners are three to a cell 23 hours a day and must slop out and perform all their bodily functions before the others, they have no self-respect at the end of their sentence and are likely to know everything about crime that their fellow prisoners can teach them.
  Judges should be more effectively trained in sentencing practice, especially as we now have many part time recorders and part time deputy circuit judges. We must give them more grounding in sentencing. It would be cheap at the price and a more humane and effective approach.
  7.27 pm
  Mr. John Wheeler: I, too, pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. He inherited a serious situation. There was a demoralised, underpaid and badly organised police force. The prison service was in chaos. Prison officers were taking part in industrial action of one type or another. It is very much to his credit that within days of taking office he did something about police pay and restored the morale of the police, so that today we enjoy the largest police force ever. Only the Metropolitan Police remains under strength, but it is now within 1,200 of its authorised establishment.
  The prison service has also been reorganised. It has been given a new board of management. There is a prison building programme to improve existing facilities and to provide more places. All that is very much to the credit of the Home Secretary. Why, then, does crime continue to increase?
  It is worth examining the statistics for a moment. Statistics, like dogs, are apt to get out of control, and when they fall into the hands of the press they are like frenzied dogs. We have heard much recently about the crime rate and crime statistics. That has been part of the substance of the debate.
  We learn about the alleged attempt to list mugging crimes according to the presumed colour of the assailant. The Metropolitan Police report for 1981 records that 327 attacks were committed by whites and 1,988 by blacks. Curiously enough, many of the muggings in inner London take place in areas where a large number of black youngsters actually live, so it is perhaps not surprising that some of the figures and conclusions point in that direction.
  We should also keep the figures in perspective. The statistics to which I have referred constitute about 3 per cent. of the 18,763 serious crimes, such as robbery and other violent thefts, committed in London. Remarkably few people about 6,000—are involved as victims in street robberies. To those individuals, of course, the crime is of the moment. It may be the most depressing and distressing experience of their lives. Nevertheless, it is worth remembering that only about 14 per cent. of the victims were aged over 60. London has a population of 8 million. It is simply not true that every old-age pensioner going out in the evening is liable to be attacked in the streets of London. In fact, 44 per cent. of the victims of muggers were aged between 21 and 40.
  The mad dog of statistics made a great deal of emotion and perhaps did a great disservice to the people of London. Despite the problems, London is still a peaceful place. We should address our attention to solving the problems.
  The most worrying aspect of this problem is the rate of success in detecting crimes. Research carried out by the

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  Metropolitan Police early in the 1970s confirmed that the amount of crime cleared up by investigation was as low as 3 per cent. Alas, that has not improved in recent times. We have a larger, better paid and better equipped police force and more police officers on the streets. That provides reassurance and prevents crime in the presence of the police officer, but it does not deal with the crimes of stealth—the muggings and burglaries—about which the public are most concerned.
  The public should be encouraged to consider developing strategies with the new larger police force to deal with those crimes. One of the most regrettable aspects of the last few weeks' debate has been the diversion of public thinking and the thinking of Members of Parliament away from finding solutions and into the cul de sacs of ayatollah-style punishments and other irrelevancies, which will have no effect at all. One cannot punish people whom one does not catch. We shall not stop crime if we cannot show that the detection rate is high enough to be a real deterrent.
  In England and Wales the murder rate is very well contained. There has been no dramatic increase. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said, that is because 97 per cent. of all homicides—murders or manslaughters—are cleared up. Everyone knows that if one kills it is almost certain that one will be apprehended and brought before the courts.
  That is not so in respect of residential burglary. Out of the 75,000 burglaries in the Metropolitan Police area in 1980, the number cleared up was very small. What are the police tactics to stop burglary? It is a crime of stealth. It happens on private property, on council estates and in mansion blocks. It does not happen in the streets where the well-equipped, well-paid, very desirable young police officer is on patrol. It does not happen in his sight. It happens in out-of-the-way places.
  It is distressing to note that out of 26,000 officers in the Metropolitan Police only 78 are employed full-time on crime prevention duties, and 53 others assist on a part-time basis. If the police themselves admit—the facts are all available—that they are unable to detect crimes of burglary, it is surely time that more resources were devoted to preventing such crimes from occurring at all.
  That is only one part of the solution. We must also consider the concept of civic responsibility as it is taught in schools and whether the role of the family in bringing up young people is likely to encourage them to keep the peace and to respect the well being of other people in the community.
  Some people believe that more police officers on the streets or more Draconian punishments will contain street crimes such as mugging, but the evidence clearly shows that that is not so. Mugging, again, is a crime of stealth. It occurs in a fraction of a moment. A youngster—it is nearly always a youngster—attacks a person, also nearly always a young person, often in daylight, takes the victim's wallet or purse and is away.
  Alas, the police have little chance of preventing that. Nevertheless, I suggest that our new, well-paid police force with all its resources should use some of its number to follow the mugger gangs—the relatively small number of individuals who carry out these crimes. I suspect that in Brixton, for example, no more than about 150 or 200 youngsters are actively engaged in mugging. If that is so,
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  why cannot we deploy the police in such a way as to increase the detection rate and thus control, if not eradicate, this crime?
  We should devote a great deal more time to those aspects. Indeed, some chief constables are already following these ideas. There is nothing very original about them. When the first paid police force was established in London in 1829, its whole purpose was to prevent crime and to detect those who had broken the law. The term "community police officer" or "community policeman'. is no novelty of this age. It goes back more than 150 years. What is needed is support for the police in the discharge of those duties.
  The most distressing aspect of the recent debate on law and order has been the apparent absence of support for the police, particularly from those with some influence in society such as community leaders and local councillors. Even the Commission for Racial Equality, which is known for its ability to issue press releases at the touch of a button, has failed to say "Support the police. Stop crime. Bring peace to our big cities." That is very worrying, because the police cannot achieve what the public want—the control of crime—unless the public and those who seek to serve them openly identify with the cause of peace and law keeping.
  I also suggest that my right hon. Friend's proposals to look at the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure and to adopt some of its recommendations are desirable. I shall consider for a moment the growth in crimes of violence. Nearly all those crimes involve the carrying of a weapon, the attack on a sub-post office, a building society office or a milk dairy. They involve the carrying of a firearm, usually a sawn-off shotgun or perhaps a knife.
  One of the most important powers to give to the police is not the encouragement of indiscriminate stop and search operations. They know that that alienates them from the public. The police want the public to be united with them. However, there is a case for saying that the police should have the power to stop and search so that they can find the people who carry offensive weapons. There is nothing novel in that. The House has given power to the police to stop and search without warrant when the illegal possession of drugs is suspected. A similar power exists to protect wild birds that have been listed as birds to be protected.
  Is it not curious that the police can stop and search for a wild bird's egg if it is a protected bird, thus protecting the interests of the bird, but they cannot protect the interests of the human being if they think that someone may be carrying a weapon? An extension of powers on that common sense basis is much to be desired. As long ago as 1978 the Scottish Council on Crime made such a proposal. There is nothing novel in the idea that the powers of the police should be better written and regulated in that way.
  Earlier in the debate the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) was kind enough to refer to a speech that I made. I thank him for that reference. I am glad that he finds time to read press releases from the Conservative Central Office. I suspect that that is to his advantage.
  If we are to make progress towards the control of the crimes of which the public disapprove most—burglary from the dwelling house, or street crimes when the public's money or possessions are taken from them—we must have the courage and foresight to look beyond merely

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  the penalties and powers of the court, and more to the efficiency and deployment of the police service that we have established and to the relationship of the police with the public. There is no chance of those crimes being contained unless the public are united with the police. The key message that must go out from the debate tonight is that a united community can stop crime. A disunited community can look only to anarchy.
  7.44 pm
  Mr. Clive Soley: I congratulate the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler) on his speech. Many Conservative Members would do well to reread his past speeches because I know that he has a great deal of understanding of these matters. However, another message will go forth from the House. That is that the Tory Party has failed to maintain law and order.
  I remember that at the time of the general election in 1979 the Conservative Party, including the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister and numerous Conservative Members, attempted to say that a vote for the Conservative Party was a vote for law and order. Yesterday I looked up the comments made in the election leaflet issued by the Tory candidate for Hammersmith. It said:
  "Criminals beware the next Conservative Government. We will cut crime."
  What have we had? We have had riots on our streets and increasing crime rates from the Government. There are good reasons for that, some of which I shall spell out.
  In the debate Conservative Members have tried to cover up their responsibilities. When they were grubbing around for votes at the election there was no attempt to say that the matter was complicated, that we should weigh it up or look at the complications in society. However, now, all of a sudden when the Conservatives get frightened by the riots and crime rates, they are rushing around saying "Let us be reasonable and let us try to understand. No Tory Home Secretary can solve the problem." However, that is not what they said in 1979.
  Mr. Wheeler: I did not want to intervene too soon in the hon. Gentleman's speech, but did I hear him say that the Government had been responsible for the increase in crime? I hope that he will retract that remark. As far as I know, the Home Secretary does not go around raping and pillaging.
  Mr. Soley: The responsibility goes deeper than a direct responsibility. If the hon. Gentleman gives me time, I shall spell out why I believe that the Government must take considerable responsibility for the riots in our streets last year and for the increase in the crime rate this year. That does not happen out of the blue. There is a link to economic forces. I shall talk more about that link because that is a matter upon which we have not dwelt tonight.
  The Government have done one thing that they said they would do at the election. They said that they would get tough. They have done so. They have put more people in prisons and there are tougher detention centres. All that we get from tougher detention centres are tougher criminals. They come out fitter. That is a big advantage, is it not? There are more people in our prisons, we are spending more on prisons and on the police, yet there is still a rising crime rate, particularly in street robbery and
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  burglary, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Paddington. It is significant that those two crimes are increasing.
  The Conservative Government have failed to maintain law and order and they have undermined it by their policies. What do we get today? More of the same. What the Home Secretary has offered us today is an insult to many people who want law and order. It is an insult precisely because the right hon. Gentleman is asking the police, the prison officers, probation officers and social services to put the lid on a problem that his Government have exacerbated. That is an insult to the professions involved.
  What is the answer? Many hon. Members say that we should get tougher still. What should we do now? We could bring back hanging. That word sends the blood coursing through our veins. That makes the hair on the back of our necks stand up. That makes us think of vengeance because vengeance is the only real reason for hanging. I have respect for an hon. Member or someone outside the House who says "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." At least that is a straight statement. We all know that hanging is not a deterrent. Therefore, we are left with vengeance. When one hears the Tory Party talking about that, one sees the thin veneer of civilisation being stripped away. We return to the howls of vengeance.
  Where do we go from there? If hanging does not work, what do we do? Perhaps we should have hanging in public or disembowelling. We have not done that for a while. However, that did not work even when we did those things. Where do we go from there? The Conservative Party is offering us more of the same and there is no sign that that will work. It is appealing to the lowest common denominator in human behaviour.
  No one in the Opposition or outside the House has ever said that people who are a threat to society, particularly a threat in the form of violence, should not be locked up. However, let us spend a moment considering the double standards of property offences. We could spend a long time on that matter. The hon. Member for Paddington will know what I mean. We can look at the treatment that we mete out to people who fiddle their social security payments and to those who evade income tax. That is a different ball game. Perhaps we should have tax inspectors breathing down the necks of Members of Parliament and checking their expenses. Then we could say "Let him or her who is without sin cast the first stone". However, perhaps I should not bring in Christianity. I understand that it embarrasses some Conservative Members who prefer to preach it rather than practise it.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) is not here. There is a crisis in our police force which basically is one of demoralisation, and it has not been helped by the lack of leadership from people such as him. It is no good giving slavish support to the simplistic prejudices that emerge from the Police Federation at a time like this. It is no good joining in the inter-union dispute between the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Police Federation. That will not help. That is not the problem. Nor is the problem one of political agitators who rarely get more than half a dozen votes in any election. The problem is that the police are trying to cope with social changes, for none of which they are responsible, in inner city areas, the very areas where they have lost real contact with the people and where there is alienation.

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  The recruitment pattern in the Metropolitan Police shows that the vast majority are recruited outside the Metropolitan London area. There are many good reasons for that, not least that they have lost the support of many of the groups within the London area. I am not just talking about the ethnic minorities. It has more to do with age and other groupings. The police do not need to be told "We will support you." If anything, that undermines them. That is almost asking the impossible. It is saying to the police "We will back you, no matter what your problems or worries. Just carry on". What the police need is help to change in two respects. One is community policing, about which enough has already been said, and the other is democratic control of the police and police accountability. The police could then win back the very groups that they have lost over recent years. In that way we could get respect for the police. We cannot get it simply by mouthing platitudes about people having respect for the police. We must give a lead. It is the lack of leadership that is doing so much damage.
  The police should acknowledge that there is a problem of racialism within their own ranks. It is not total, and of course there are many extremely good police officers. However, if one goes to the police training school one is told "We know that we have a problem of racialism among our police officers. One racialist in the police force is an appalling trouble to us". They want them all out. We do not solve the problem by pretending that the problem does not exist, as the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds seeks to do, and brush it under the carpet in the hope that it will go away. We solve the problem by first stating the problem honestly and openly, and then examining it.
  I come now to the important part of my speech—the way forward through prevention of crime. Clearly community policing and more police are one way. Enough has been said on that subject already. However, here we come to the complicated bit. The Home Secretary gave one or two good examples. He said that we should help elderly people to get locks on their doors, and so on. That is a good idea, but the bulletin issued by Age Concern the other day referred to the difficulty that old people have in getting financial support for that purpose. Perhaps the Minister will tell us where the money is to come from.
  Then the Secretary of State said that the local authorities should do more. I have been saying that for years. What should they do? We need many more caretakers on estates, and more park keepers. We need public toilets that are opened and attended. We need to get rid of many of the blind areas in inner cities—the subways, and so on. However, we cannot do that without money. Moreover, when the Secretary of State for the Environment slashes money for services and tells local authorities to cut their employees, what are we to believe? The Home Secretary said that he would do something about this and inform the Secretary of State for the Environment. What will the Secretary of State for the Environment do? Will he cut more? Or will local authorities be given more money to do some of the things that the Home Secretary says that they should do? If so, how much and when?
  There is an important link between parenting and the environment in which a person lives. During the past three years, the Conservative Party has attacked the social fabric of our nation. That attack resulted, to a considerable extent, in last year's riots and the increase in crime rate. Riots and crime do not happen without reason. They are
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  not spontaneous in the sense of an unrelated event. They have a cause. Parenting is crucial. No Labour Member would say that unemployment or low income or bad housing by themselves cause criminal behaviour. We say that with confidence, because many of us, like many of our constituents, come from backgrounds like that, and would say "My parents were unemployed, we had low incomes, we were in bad housing, but we did not commit crime". So good parenting can be crucial.
  That ignores the link with the environment. Many people are not good parents, and additional financial and environmental pressures reduce their chances of coping with the situation. Let us take the example of a family of poor parents where the father is thrown out of work. They live in a high rise block of flats, dependent on electricity for heating, which has just been increased by the Government, they use gas, which has also gone up, their rents have gone up, and their social security payments have either gone down or been held stable, depending on the group that they are in. The result is increased anxiety and social disintegration. So the parents tell the kids to get out of their way, and when a lot of children wander around the streets statistics show that there will be a higher crime rate. That is no moral statement. It is a simple statement about human behaviour. That is what I mean when I say that this Government have undermined the social fabric of the nation and stripped the mortar from between the bricks that hold the groups together.
  Housing is another example. Young people in inner city areas find it difficult to get a house. They cannot get council houses because the lists are too long, no houses are being built, or they are being sold off. They cannot get into the privately rented sector, because it is non-existent or too expensive. They cannot buy, certainly in my area, unless they earn a minimum of £10,000 a year. So they move out. The competent couples move out. Those with problems—they may be emotional problems, problems of low income, or overcrowding—stay. So there is a concentration of problems. Then we ask the police and the probation service to put the lid on the problem and try to hold it down. We put in more police and we try to use them as a shield to defend us, because the Government have failed to deliver the goods in areas of that type.
  I remember a good example of the problems both of good parenting and of the environment. A young girl aged about 16 was clouted round the ear by her mother, in a way that she was prone to do, who said to her "Do not lie to me". Minutes later, there was a knock on the door, and the mother said to her daughter "That will be the lent man"—or it might have been the milkman—"Go downstairs and tell him I am not in". Straight away there is a double standard. To show the confusion in the child's mind, she went downstairs, opened the door and said "Mummy is not in and I am a bloody liar".
  One can learn three things from such an experience—that lying is wrong, that lying is right but, more important and much more likely, that in certain circumstances lying is all right. Lying to police officers, probation officers and teachers is all right, but, by and large, one does not lie to one's own group.
  The two crucial factors in parenting are love and consistency and none of us is too consistent. If those factors break down, they can link up with the social factors that make matters worse. The problem is, of course, low incomes. The reason why the mother told her child to say that she was not at home was that she could not pay the

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  bill. The more that one puts economic pressure on those at the low income end of the scale, the more the problems will manifest themselves. Not everyone will have problems. Many will resist, for which they deserve to be respected. However, we should not kid ourselves that it will not happen because it must happen. Those people are operating on the margn of their ability to cope, and the more that we push them the worse it becomes.
  If we consider the minimum taxation relief of £250 given in the Budget to those who earn £15,000 a year, and we see that it is £57 for those who earn under £15,000, we recognise that the pressure that we put on those with low incomes is massive. That will affect the crime rate in exactly the. same way as the other matters.
  Single parent families are another favourite scapegoat of Conservative Members. Exactly the same applies as with unemployment, bad housing or low incomes. Some single parent families are happy and good families that bring up marvellous children. Others are not. However, the same principle applies. The more that one undermines the economic and social support system of those individuals, the more people will fall into the trap of getting into financial trouble and either their children or themselves committing offences. There is a close and real link which we ignore at our peril. We cannot deal with it simply by putting more police officers on the streets, building more prisons and sending more criminals to prison.
  Let us consider the needs of victims. The National Association of Victims Support Schemes is growing well and has received support from both sides of the House. It should be given greater encouragement. Let us also consider insurance, because we know that those on low incomes who live in council estates often do not insure their property. The loss of a television set, because of a burglary, is to an elderly person living alone who is not insured infinitely greater than the loss to me if my flat is broken into and my property is stolen, because my property can be replaced by insurance.
  That is a major problem. Why does not the Home Secretary say that he will give more aid to local authorities and will encourage them to operate low-cost insurance schemes? It is not impossible to do that. I welcome the fact that some Labour-controlled local authorities have taken initiatives on that.
  I do not see why the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board should be restricted to dealing with criminal injuries. We should examine the matter much more radically and open it up so that the board can deal not only with criminal injuries but with property loss.
  We must also consider the reform of court procedure, because I know too many victims who have been through the court and the police procedures and who have come out feeling more alienated against the forces of law and order than supported by them. People feel that they are distant, cold and uncaring about their crisis, which may have been a major personal crisis whether it was a loss of property or a physical assault.
  We must also consider the responsibility of the press. Many people pick on television. If I pick on anyone it would be some newspapers, both local and national, which whip up fears about crime. The Age Concern document should be read by the editors of every local and national newspaper in Britain. It makes the point that elderly
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  people are not as much at risk as they believe and, as a result, they live in fear. That is not a throwaway line—I mean "in fear". It is terrible for a person to live in fear. For an elderly person to live in fear is appalling. He may not go out, he leaves the door locked and if anyone knocks at the door he jumps. He slides the latch back and looks through the peephole. Is that what we wish to have?
  In one of my local newspapers, out of 44 news stories, 31 related to crime, which is totally unrepresentative of what is happening in the area. There is also an emphasis on violence. There is nothing like sex and violence for a good headline. For example, if a rape happens there is a headline. When the police catch the person there is another headline. When the case goes to court and the person is convicted there is another headline and, if the newspaper is really lucky, there will be an appeal and a fourth headline into the bargain. I have seen that happen. I asked some constituents a series of questions about a particular story. People thought that there had been four murders whereas there had been four highly publicised reports at different times of the same murder. That is the danger of what I call irresponsible reporting. I do not ask for no reporting, but I ask that journalists and editors should think hard about the irrational fears that they bring ino people's lives.
  The Conservative Party has failed the nation by undermining its social fabric, which led to last year's street riots and an increase in the crime rate. The Conservative Party must take a considerable part of the blame for that. If the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) is so keen on shaking his head to that, perhaps he had better reread the election literature that he distributed at the general election and see whether it said what the Conservative Party had in mind. It said that it would cut the crime rate, which by any standards, least of all the hon. Gentleman's, is false. The Conservative Government have failed to cut the crime rate in a significant way.
  Perhaps the most dangerous matter of all is that the Government are trying to use the police to deal with the economic and social problems. There is nothing like using the police and giving them more powers in order to solve such a problem to lead us into undemocratic ways. I wish to support the police, but that means reforms in methods of policing. Above all, it means the Government taking their responsibility seriously, tackling some of the urban problems that are causing alienation from the police and causing crime, and stop trying to find scapegoats and using the police or the prison service as their front line of defence when they, and they alone, have failed the nation.
  8.8 pm
  Mr. Jocelyn Cadbury: I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Soley), but I cannot agree with him that the Government have undermined the social fabric of this country. One cannot undermine the social fabric of a country, even if his reasoning is right, in two and a half years. The hon. Gentlemen has been talking complete rubbish.
  All politicians are guilty of over-simplification—no doubt Conservative as well as Labour Members—but one of the largest over-simplifications of the Labour Party is that it says that it can solve the country's economic problems by spending £9 billion that has not been earned. We are all guilty of over-simplification.

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  I agree that the causes of crime and its explanations are not simple, and nor are the solutions. For that reason I do not accept the arguments that have been advanced by Labour Members that one factor—unemployment—is mainly responsible for the increase in criminal acts. In support of that view, I quote Sir Philip Knights, the chief constable of the West Midlands police force. The Secretary of State rightly paid tribute to that force when he opened the debate. Sir Philip Knights said:
  "It is always difficult to positively identify the reason for increased crime, and there is often a temptation to look for easy subjective answers such as, at present, the rising unemployment figures. I do not see any evidence, however, to connect the two.… I believe the answers are being found much more in the way in which old standards of honesty and respect for others and their property and former social controls such as religion, 'what the neighbours think' and parental control and training have become eroded in the face of modern living conditions."
  There are many reasons why crime has increased. There is a whole range of cultural factors involved. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) referred to television, and, quite rightly, mention has been made of the press. The press has had a bad effect. I do not know whether any hon. Members listen to the so-called punk rock music. Occasionally, I have tried to decipher some of the words of the songs which come under the heading of punk. It is difficult because the singers usually screech out the lyrics, but when I have been able to understand the message it sometimes seems to propagate an ethos of violence which must have a disturbing effect on the behaviour of young people. Criminologists should study those cultural factors. To some extent, they must influence human behaviour for the worse.
  Following other hon. Members, I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the positive measures that he has taken over the last two and a half years to combat the rise in crime. Many hon. Members have already referred to the success in raising police strength. This has been largely the result of the Government's decision to implement in full the Edmund-Davies pay award and subsequently to maintain the relationship between police pay and average earnings elsewhere in the community. That is a step in the right direction.
  A most welcome outcome of the success in attracting new recruits is that it has made possible the return of the beat policeman. A great deal of nonsense has been talked about community policing. As my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler) said, that is not new. It has been going on for 100 years. It was the Social Democratic Party's candidate for Hillhead, Mr. Roy Jenkins, who took the policemen off the beat and put them into panda cars.
  Effective policing, as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said, is the only way to deter street crime. Policemen who walk the streets will thereby get to know what is happening in the community. I welcome the move back to the beat policeman.
  A third area in which the Government are facing up to the need for urgent action is in their prison building programme. It is astonishing that between 1918 and 1959 no new prisons were built in Britain. We have neglected our prison system in a most disgraceful way. Winson Green prison at Birmingham was designed to take 518 prisoners, yet the present prison population is 1,057. That
  1156
  is an overcrowding factor of two. It has led to the appalling situation in which many prisoners are crammed three into a cell.
  Such conditions cannot be conducive to reforming the character of prisoners. They must place intolerable burdens on the prison officers and they are bound to lead to outbursts of violent behaviour as nerves become frayed. The worst aspect of overcrowding at Winson Green is that 250 of the inmates have not yet been tried. Some may be innocent, yet they have to endure even worse conditions than convicted prisoners. Therefore, the Government's programme to build eight new prisons and to create 5,000 places by 1990 is to be greatly welcomed. That should have been undertaken many years ago, but it is to the Government's credit that they are getting on with it now.
  Although the Government are showing determination in the fight against crime, two points give cause for concern. The whole House will agree that the most serious aspect of the recent growth in crime is the rise in the incidence of violent attacks. In 1977, there were 82,000 such incidents, but last year there were 100,000. That trend has resulted not only in terrible distress for the victims, but in a climate of fear, especially among the elderly. The press may have exaggerated the situation, but there is a basis of fact.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary who has made it clear that the perpetrators of violent crimes must expect long prison sentences. However, my constituents have brought some cases to my attention in which violent attackers, whose victims have died, have escaped with absurdly short sentences, or merely with fines. I shall cite one instance. The father of one of my constituents was struck on the head with an iron bar when he resisted two young men who were trying to steal his car. They drove off in the car and left him dying in the road. They were subsequently found guilty of manslaughter—not murder—and were sentenced to seven years, with a recommendation that they serve a minimum of four years.
  I can understand the bitterness of the dead man's daughter. Within four years her father's murderers may walk free.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The court decided that the young men were guilty of manslaughter. The hon. Gentleman should not refer to them as murderers. In those circumstances, it is quite wrong to recognise the daughter's feelings in thinking of them as murderers. The court saw the incident as manslaughter and seven years is a substantial sentence for that.
  Mr. Cadbury: I accept that the jury decided on a verdict of manslaughter. However, I am trying to point out that there is widespread concern about such crimes in the West Midlands. The daughter is indifferent about how the verdict was reached and the system that brought it about. She has lost her father and those two guilty men will probably serve only four years. That is the point.
  My main concern is that there is a belief that, because of the shortage of prison space, courts are restricted in the severity of the sentences that they can impose, even for violent offenders. If that is a false belief, it would help to restore public confidence if the Minister would make it clear that the courts are not constrained by a shortage of prison space. That would remove much of the concern in the West Midlands.

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  Many hon. Members have referred to the low, and falling, level of crime detection in Britain. According to the Home Office's statistical bulletin, only 38 per cent. of crimes were cleared up by the police last year. The figure for robbery was only 25 per cent. and for burglary 30 per cent. It cannot help public confidence to know that there is only a 30 per cent. chance of a burglary case being cleared up. Part of the explanation for the low level of detection may be that police resources are still stretched, despite our success in increasing the numbers of police. As a result, the police may still have to concentrate on the more serious crimes. If that is so, we should consider the need to increase police numbers still further and to raise the target for establishment strength.
  If we are to win the fight against crime, we must first raise the detection rate for all crimes. That means increasing police numbers even further than the Government have already done. Secondly, we must ensure that prison sentences are long enough to deter violent offenders, and that on no account are the courts to be restricted in their sentencing decisions by the lack of prison space.
  8.20 pm
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: I understand that when the Opposition selected this subject for discussion the Home Secretary was a little miffed. He is under threat from some of his Back Benchers and he felt that we were adding to his troubles. The truth is that we did not intend to seek to bury the Home Secretary. We meant to stiffen his backbone. Judging by his performance earlier today, we had serious cause for concern about his backbone. With his usual flambuoyance he turned tail on many of the things that he had said and espoused over the past two years.
  One of the most interesting things about the Conservative Party in office on this occasion has been its abandonment of much of the reactionary nonsense that it used to say in Opposition. At that time we were constantly badgered by the present Home Secretary for allowing crime to increase. However, in the last three years of the Labour Government crime decreased. We used to argue that it did not matter which party was in power, as the capacity of any Government to affect the crime rate is extremely limited.
  One of the factors that affects the crime rate considerably is unemployment. That is not because all the unemployed are likely to commit crimes. Conservative Members are entitled to say that there are splendid people who are unemployed who never get involved in serious crime, but with increased unemployment the poverty of an area is increased. It is clear from an analysis of crime statistics that poverty, bad housing, bad conditions and broken families lead to the likelihood of a percentage of those who are affected becoming involved in crime.
  Happily, the percentage in Britain is small, and has always been small, but it is a significant factor. The increase in unemployment adds to the increase in poverty and thereby leads to a likelihood of increasing crime. As I said in an earlier intervention, the Prime Minister argued this week that there was no simplistic correlation between unemployment and crime. The right hon. Lady used as her evidence figures from the 1930s. She said that at that time there was much higher unemployment and much less
  1158
  crime. I asked the Library to produce the figures. In 1981 serious crime rose by 10 per cent. It is that figure that is supposed to have sparked off the alarm on this occasion. That 10 per cent. increase has been exceeded in post-war years on only about three occasions, and never has the rate been more than 18 per cent.
  In 1930 the rise in serious crime was 9·3 per cent. In 1931 it was 8·3 per cent. and in 1932 it was no less than 30·7 per cent. In 1933 the level sank again to 9·2 per cent. The average over those four years—a time of the most serious unemployment before the war—was about 15 or 16 per cent. That was easily the worst period for increasing crime. The absolute figures were lower, but the percentages were substantially higher than any in the postwar period. That should show that there is some correlation between unemployment and crime.
  The Government must take that into consideration when they use unemployment—as they are doing now—as an economic weapon in their approach to solving the problems of the economy.
  Mr. Lawrence: Tut, tut.
  Mr. Lyon: It is all very well for the hon. and learned Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) to say "Tut, tut", but it was manifestly clear from the beginning of the Government's economic policy that they would reduce the level of economic activity, which would lead irresistibly to unemployment. They knew it, and they planned for it.
  The background from which crime springs presents problems of immense complexity, and it is extremely difficult for Government actions to have an effect upon them. The Government can perhaps improve the level of employment, do something about improving the level of housing, and do a good deal more about increasing social benefits as part of the campaign against rising crime, but all of that will take time. We can make the greatest impact in the shortest time by improving the capacity of the police to detect crime, because detection is the greatest deterrent. For that reason my right hon. and hon. Friends have been arguing consistently over the past two years that we must improve the capacity of the police by improving their effectiveness in the local community.
  The argument of my right hon. and hon. Friends—the evidence is now irresistible—is that the police cannot police without the consent of the community. The community is not the 90 per cent. of the people who never come into contact with the police, but the 10 per cent. who are in fairly close contact with the police, because they live in areas where criminality is highest, and they are part of the community that the police has to police most intensely.
  It is that community that is causing concern, not the middle-class families in the shire counties or the community that I represent in this place. On the whole, the people of York are not affected by rising crime, and their problems are not those of rising crime. We find rising crime in the inner cities, and it is in those areas that the police have to recapture the confidence of the law-abiding community.
  When the Metropolitan Police issued their ridiculous figures about ethnic attacks, they seemed to say through the screaming headlines that the entire black community was responsible for mugging. On one occasion I heard a BBC interviewer ask one of her guests whether it was true that mugging was a black crime. It is manifest nonsense to take that view when one considers the figures

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  throughout the country. In Brixton, where only 4 per cent. of the black teenage population are involved in any form of street crime, 96 per cent. of the teenage population feel aggrieved, and justifiably, by the slur that is put upon them that they are engaged in street crime. Even worse, they are aggrieved that they should be stopped in the streets and questioned and, as they see it, harassed by the police when they have nothing to do with such offences.
  The Home Secretary's reaction to the pressure that has been put upon him is to say that the stop-and-search powers should be used more universally and that the powers should be more easily available to the police. If we were to do that as a reaction to the immediate outcry, there would be a serious setback in the campaign that the Home Secretary has been conducting in the past two years to achieve a more humane penal system and to advance the cause, which the Opposition espouse, of better community policing.
  To make the term "community policing" more easily understood, there are many who adopt the alternative description of the bobby on the beat. Community policing is not only the bobby on the beat. Mr. Alderson, who advocates community policing as almost a religion, has made it clear that it would be possible to have community policing without any bobbies on the beat. Community policing means that the police should be an integral part of the community that they serve and that they should be in contact with the decision makers on the local council, the local planning committee, the local housing committee and the local social services committee. It means that they should be in contact with the youth clubs, with the Churches and the schools. It means that they should live in and know the area.
  I accept that a further arm of community development is more policemen back on the beat. Unless the totality of the police force is involved with the community, and understanding the community, one will not get the benefit that community policing is supposed to bring. If one merely does as the Metropolitan Police did in Brixton and appoint four people called "community bobbies" who walk about the streets as a public relations exercise, while the real hard policing is done by somebody else in the same over-reactive way, the cynicism of the local community will be increased.
  One of the best examples of community policing was in Handsworth, where the police force was put into an area which, at the time, was as sensitive and difficult as Toxteth and Brixton, and where crime seemed likely to erupt into violence on the streets. By introducing community policing in a sensible way street crime was cut by about half in the first year and it has never got back to its previous level. When there were riots in similar black areas throughout the country last spring, there was no serious rioting in Handsworth.
  That is not the only successful experiment. Community policing has been tried in a number of other areas. Wherever it has been tried in that way it has been supremely successful, not in just ameliorating the difficulties of the local population, but in improving the detection rate in that area. That is why we argue that community policing is not soft policing. Indeed, I agree with the Home Secretary: the whole concept of hard and soft policing is nonsense. Community policing is effective policing. It is doing the job that the police have to do, but it is doing it better.
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  If the police would accept that—and Tory Members have said that they are accepting it all over the country—that would be fine. The real difficulty with today's debate is that the police are not accepting that. The way in which this latest bout of law and order discussion has come about is interesting. It started with a discussion on a London Weekend Television programme about two months ago, in which a deputy assistant commissioner questioned the Scarman report and said that it was shackling the hands of the police and putting them in a dilemma when they wanted to react to crime on the streets. That was followed by some leaked information in The Times about muggings throughout the country. That in turn was followed by the explosion designed by the Metropolitan Commissioner in relation to the black statistics for street crimes in London. Then we had the Police Federation campaign on hanging.
  Nobody could look at all that and say that it was accidental. It was a planned campaign, and it was planned for one reason and one reason alone. The police were worried that the Scarman approach to policing would be forced on them against their will, and they wanted to stop it. If that is the attitude—and I strongly suspect that it is—it is a serious matter and one with which we shall have to deal. The only way in which we can deal with it is by recapturing control of our police.
  When we talk about police accountability, hon. Members complain that we are talking about Ken Livingstone kicking McNee around London. I fail to understand the seriousness of this argument. As the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), the spokesman for the Police Federation, said earlier in our debate, there may be about 24 men who are really responsible for our future peace in the inner cities. Those 24 men make decisions which have to be made by somebody. They make decisions which vitally affect the peace of this nation. It is ludicrous that that responsibility should rest on the shoulders of only 24 people. There must be some attempt to bring back democratic control.
  That democratic control can be exercised only by local councillors through the police authorities. They have to be able to control policing policy. It is for them to decide how it should be done, in conjuncition with their chief officer. If there is a good relationship between the two, the advice of the chief officer will be accepted. If there is not and there is a continuing dispute, either the chief officer or the police authority has to go. The police authority can be changed by the electorate once every three years, or part of it each year. In that way the electorate keeps a grip on policing in the area.
  What the electorate cannot do at the moment is to dismiss a chief officer. This is what causes the anguish and concern. Not only Manchester is affected. It is also true in Merseyside and in South Yorkshire. What happened in South Yorkshire is, however, significant. There, the chairman of the police authority decided that the police had to be brought under control. When he tried to do what the Manchester police authority is trying to do with Mr. Anderton, he got the same kind of response from his chief constable. I advise every chairman of a police authority to examine what he then did. He would not sign the minutes of any police authority meeting. Because he would riot sign, the funds were not available to the police. Within two or three months the chief officer had come into line.
  Since that time, anyone who wishes to see what can be achieved by community policing should go to South

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  Yorkshire. Even before the Scarman report, local liaison committees had been set up in every community. There is an intimate involvement between the local community and the police. In South Yorkshire there is no sense of the resistance to the police that is found in Manchester, in Brixton or in Toxteth. There are black communities within South Yorkshire, and there are some difficult communities within South Yorkshire, but the whole experiment has been a magnificent success because the police and the police authority came together. In my submission, that is the approach that should be adopted towards the problem of rising crime. Only in that way shall we succeed.
  8.37 pm
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: The public discussion of law and order seems to be bedevilled by the apparent helplessness of Governments to do much about the appalling crime rate however one views the statistics. This has led to some defeatist, exaggerated and misjudged statements from various quarters that should know better. The hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Soley) talked about the lowest common denominator of society backing capital punishment. If the public opinion polls are right and 85 per cent. of society backs capital punishment, the hon. Gentleman must have been elected by a substantial proportion of that lowest denominator of society.
  I think that it was the hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon) who said that crime had decreased during Labour's last three years in office. That is patent nonsense if one looks at the specific crimes. Crimes of violence against the person rose from 77,000 in 1976 to 95,000 in 1979. Crimes of burglary rose from 515,000 in 1976 to 549,000 in 1979. Robberies rose from 11,600 in 1976 to 12,500 in 1979. Theft and handling offences rose from 1,285,000 in 1976 to 1,416,000 in 1979. Whatever else one says, that is not a reduction in serious offences, with which we are mainly concerned.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon rose—
  Mr. Lawrence: I am afraid that there is insufficient time for me to give way.
  My next example of the misjudged statement is the approach of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) who blames the Government for unemployment and then says that he understands why young teenagers should be tempted to commit crime. The effect is to justify, or to appear to justify, the commission of crime as the result of high levels of unemployment. The inevitable effect of justifying crime is to encourage its commission. That reminds me of the modern parable of the good Samaritan who goes across the road to the person lying bleeding in the gutter, shakes his head and says, "Tut, tut, tut, whoever did that to you needs help."
  The final example of exaggerated, defeatist and misjudged response had been the attacks on my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. The rise in crime will not be reduced by hysterical and thoroughly unjustified attacks and calls for his removal. It is not his fault that Parliament decided that there shall be no return to capital punishment or that the European Court and the ambivalence of society have decided that there is to be no corporal punishment even for juvenile offenders.
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  It is not my right hon. Friend's fault that national service cannot be restored because resources are inadequate. It is not his fault that for 30 years weak Governments, feeble management and bad trade unions have led us into this level of unemployment. It is not his fault that irresponsible parental attitudes over many years both in home and at school and the ineffectiveness of our religions have led to a breakdown in the sense of responsibility in our society which causes so much crime. It is not his fault that courts refuse to impose sentences that are available.
  I was particularly delighted by my right hon. Friend's performance today and he has achieved three particularly important successes. First, he has built up the morale of the police. It is difficult to put a specific figure or value on that, but if the front line of the force of law and order is enthusiastic and feels that it is serving a useful and constructive purpose in society then policing—whether it is community policing or whatever else we call it—is likely to be of a higher and more effective standard than if the police force is demoralised as it was under the last Labour Government.
  Mr. Frank Dobson rose—
  Mr. Lawrence: I do not have very much time and there are a number of people who wish to speak. I hope the hon. Gentleman, who has not been here for long, will forgive me.
  The second of my right hon. Friend's substantial achievements, for which I do not think he has been given enough credit, is that he has prevented the complete collapse of the prison service, which was under substantial pressure and threat about a year ago. By good judgment and wise direction he has stopped that from happening.
  My right hon. Friend's third achievement has been to honour the pledges on law and order in the Conservative Party manifesto. We promised to spend more on crime fighting. The cash spending on the police has risen from £1,150 million to a planned £2,314 million this year. The cash spending on prisons has risen from £252 million to £504 million. He promised a strong police force and he has built up its strength by over 8,000 since he came into power and by over 3,000 in London alone. He promised to implement the Edmund-Davies recommendations and that was done within days.
  My right hon. Friend promised to review traffic laws in order to reduce the waste of police time. Changes in the points system were introduced in the Transport Act 1981. The Transport Bill 1982 extends the fixed penalty system. He promised to introduce tough short sentences for violent criminals. Long prison sentences are understood now not to be the best deterrent. He has given complete support to the judges in their implementation of the newer approach to criminal policy. We promised to increase the range of sentences, and that is happening in the Criminal Justice Bill 1982 now going through Parliament, which removes the restrictions of the Criminal Justice Bill 1961 on custodial sentences. That is happening. We promised to introduce residential care orders. That is happening.
  My right hon. Friend has made available, as promised, more compulsory attendance centres, and the experimental short, sharp shock treatment promised has been implemented. There is a greater use of community service orders, as promised—I think up by 45 per cent. since we

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  came into office. There are more extensive compensation orders, as promised. We promised to reform the fines system, and a new scale of fines is going through the House in the Criminal Justice Bill. We also promised a free vote on capital punishment, and time was given for that debate. That is an honest Government fulfilling their promises.
  One thing is very clear—that the decline in law and order did not just happen as the Conservative Party came to power. It has been happening over a long period. It is no use kidding ourselves that something that has taken that long to happen is capable of a short and easy solution. Nevertheless, action must be taken, and I should like to make one or two observations about the sort of action that I think should be taken.
  I have no doubt that capital punishment would make a substantial contribution to the reduction of crime, not only because it would reduce the number of people who carry firearms, and are therefore tempted from time to time to use them, and not only because it reflects the horror that society feels at deliberate killing, and gives limits beyond which people should not transgress. The fact is that there has been an overwhelming response to the Police Federation's advertisement and that response shows that most people, whether the younger people who go to football matches or the older people who are frightened to go out in the evening, would feel safer if there was capital punishment. Our society no longer feels safe. I have no doubt that if capital punishment were introduced people would feel safer and society would be much better for that.
  Secondly, I have no doubt that corporal punishment for juvenile offenders would have an immediate effect, although the underlying problem of lack of respect for other people would take much longer to cure. I was interested to hear a bishop say on the radio programme "Thought for the Day" that when he asked a young juvenile why he threw stones and damaged property the answer was "Because I have nothing to lose." If we cannot learn a lesson from that, we should not be here.
  Thirdly, I have no doubt that national service—not necessarily military, but certainly with discipline—would make a substantial contribution to the reduction of juvenile crime. Other countries have it, and it is a pity that it was ever stopped in this country. I ask my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State to keep an open mind on the matter. I hope that he and his Government colleagues will consider the possibility of reintroducing national service to some extent, and that they will get away from the defeatism of saying that it is impracticable merely beause we have used up all the resources.
  Fourthly, because of the importaance of the detection of crime—there are now nearly 750,000 burglaries a year, and the clear-up figure is appallingly low—I agree with hon. Members on both sides of the House who have said that we should have more police and that they should be better equipped. Whether that means that we should have more specials or more permanent police is a matter on which we have often expressed ourselves. That we should have more police, and should ask whether the existing establishments are realistic in the light of the requirements of modern policing, there can be no doubt.
  As to police committees, I do not think that there is quite such widespread opposition to democratising the control of the police, as Opposition hon. Members seem to think. What worries us on the Conservative Benches is that the sort of local authorities that are now calling for
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  police democratisation are the sort that are led by extreme Left-wingers, who want to bring down society as we know it, and consider that the police are in their way. If it were the more reasonable and moderate local authorities putting forward the case, I am sure that we would listen to it with much more sympathy.
  The fifth action we can take to deal with crime is to improve the process of criminal trial. I welcome my right hon. Friend's commitment on implementing parts of the Royal Commission's proposals. Tape-recorded interviews would substantially shorten the criminal process, bring trials on much more quickly and help lead to the conviction of more guilty people if only because witnesses would not have forgotten what they saw, said or heard. I hope that particular attention will be paid to that aspect.
  I caution against the interference with the jury system which seemed to be hinted at and which was specifically mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg). If we tamper with the right to challenge three members of a jury for no cause, we may in due course have to introduce the sort of system that operates in the United States where one can spend days cross-examining jurymen. That will occupy an immense amount of the criminal process time. Even worse than that is tailoring a jury to the needs of the defendant. That would be a wholly retrograde step if we are concerned with the reduction of crime.
  Sixthly, we can do much about punishment. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said—this was repeated time and again throughout the debate—that certainty of conviction was the only real material deterrent. He also said that the amount of punishment does not matter. With the greatest respect, that is manifest rubbish. The lower the punishment, the less the risk the villain or potential villain is likely to run and the more likely it is that he will attempt the crime he was originally tempted to commit. That seems to be manifest common sense. It is not much use detecting a crime if the person who is about to commit it thinks that he will not be convicted or, even if he is convicted, will only receive a pat on the head and twopence out of the poor box. That does not deter anybody.
  Therefore, it is the detection of crime, coupled with the certainty of punishment, that is the true deterrent. The Lord Chief Justice was forced in the other place yesterday to make a speech about the judges being more or less restricted by overcrowded prisons. Therefore, it is beholden to us and the Government to untie the judges' hands and ensure that we have more prisons. Although I agree with few of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk), I agree that the prison programme for eight new prisons will only replace those that are falling down. That will not be of much use in reducing crime. If we have a better and more effective police force, and criminal and legal system and if we are arresting, convicting and sentencing more villains—as the most constructive gesture towards the reduction of crime—we need more prisons and cannot merely replace those that are now overcrowded and falling down.
  The reply may be that we will have difficulty in finding more prison officers. It will be much easier to find them if their working surroundings are decent; where prisoners are not so overcrowded that the life inside is a hell under which nothing useful can be done except to take people out of circulation.

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  I welcome the introduction of partially suspended sentences, but not for the same reason as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. We must establish a system, as quickly as possible whereby we deter offenders at an earlier stage of their offending. That must not mean that they can commit 100 crimes before being caught, another 100 before conviction and another half a dozen before ever going inside a prison. By that time, they are determined and set in their villainous ways. Ideally, we must have a situation where, when somebody begins to be thinking about starting a life of crime, he is taken by the arm and led inside a prison for a few weeks to see what he will be letting himself in for if he continues in his life of crime. Partially suspended sentences could be used for that purpose, if not immediately, when we reduce the pressure on the prison service. Therefore, judges could send people to prison for short periods but at an earlier stage of their offending. That will make a substantial contribution to the reduction in crime.
  Seventhly, there are the preventive measures that were well covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler). The Government should give massive publicity, perhaps by buying television time, to the dangers of leaving one's house so easily accessible to burglars. Nothing stimulates one to take the necessary precautions as much as seeing a film about how easy it is to happen. Insurance companies should reduce premiums if proper locks and alarms are put on, and we might consider tax allowances for those fitting alarms and preventative devices in their homes.
  Finally, in the longer term, we have to do something about the need for respect for others. I welcome what the Government have done and are doing to make parents responsible for the offences of their children in the Bill going through Parliament. The sale of council houses makes people more responsible for their property and children more responsible, as they live in their parents' own home. The measures that the Government have taken to improve parental involvement in education are a substantial factor in improving attitudes of respect for others.
  Also, the measures that the Government are taking to try to get the work force more involved and committed to the future of the company for which they work is a step towards responsibility. Everything that the Government are doing to try to win back the amorphous power of the state to individual responsibility in our society will, in the longer run, tend to improve the attitude of individual respect for others. Further, we should do more to restrict the spread of pornography in our society and we should control television displays of violence.
  I welcome the debate and the publicity that the argument about crime has brought. I even welcome the publishing of the crime details that have been much criticised today, because they bring the matters into the open light of day. Where the facts are exposed to the public view, there is a greater awareness and understanding. Is that not what Labour Members keep talking about? They say that if only the public could understand more of the problems of the police and the police could understand more of the problems of the public there would be a much more constructive police-public relationship that will reduce the burden of crime.
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  I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the action that he has taken to date. I hope that he will do more to strengthen the steps that he has taken along the lines I have suggested. I agree with those on the Opposition Benches who say that public awareness is the most important factor in the end, for the reduction of crime.
  8.58 pm
  Miss Sheila Wright: One of the earlier speakers spent a fair amount of time telling us about the gut reactions of his constituents and the public. The problem about any debate of this sort is that it tends, unhappily, to be conducted on the basis of gut reaction, not logic, and the justification of that gut reaction rather than a logical assessment of what we can do to remove the need for those gut reactions.
  There is one common concern of all of us in this House, and the vast majority of those outside. There is an overwhelming concern about rising crime rates, particularly burglaries and crimes of violence. It is a matter that is near to all of us, whether we have been personally involved or whether we are concerned about friends, relatives or constituents, or whether it is just a general concern.
  Unfortunately for this concern, it is only too easy to make illogical jumps of reasoning in our anxiety and to add to a rising spiral of hysteria on both sides of the argument. That makes its own contribution to a deteriorating atmosphere both in the House and in the country.
  It would be much more helpful and useful if we were all able to distance ourselves a little from the immediate reactions to an immediate problem, from statistics which may or may not always be valid and from our own, sometimes facile, solutions.
  It is not helpful to have partial statistics relating to a small proportion of crimes taken out of context, without a full analysis of the crimes, and headlined, as these were, in all the tabloids. This leads the public to assume, as most people to whom I have spoken assumed, that they are now being authoritatively told that the majority of crimes in this country are committed by a small part of the community.
  Had different questions been asked, I am sure that it would have been equally valid statistically to state that nowadays the majority of violent crimes are committed by people who, if asked, would say that they regarded themselves as members of some branch of the Christian faith. One has only to visit a prison to discover that the vast majority of prisoners state that they are members of some branch of the Christian faith. Nevertheless, that is no reason for headlines to the effect that most violent crime is committed by Christians.
  It is also not helpful, understandable though it may be in the aftermath of two deplorable murders of young policeman, for the Police Federation to spend large sums of money advocating the reintroduction of capital punishment. Again, this leads the public to assume, wrongly, that the murder rate in this country has risen when it has not, and, even more wrongly, that draconian punishment for murderers will have any effect on those committing crimes for which no one has suggested capital punishment.
  It is not helpful for a senior policeman to suggest that elected police authorities should be replaced by some other body, presumably bureaucratically appointed and with no direct responsibility to the public. So far, there have been no suggestions that there should not be some kind of police

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  authority, but there has been no sensible suggestion as to who its members should be or by whom they should be appointed.
  Equally unhelpful is the increasingly acrimonious debate about community policing. Much as I support and am grateful for police policy in my own and neighbouring constituencies in the West Midlands, I should be quite happy if everyone forgot the phrase "community policing" because of the backlash that it is now producing in the police force itself. The debate could then be concentrated by both the police and the public on how the police can gain, or in some cases regain, and retain the support of the vast majority of law-abiding citizens of this country. Without their consent and support, which at present is not forthcoming in large areas of the inner cities, it will be disastrously easy to continue on a downward path of police confrontation with the public, as has happened in the past year in an increasingly large number of cases.
  The problem is how to cultivate that consent and support, particularly in areas where there is a wide diversity of cultural background and consequently a wide cultural gap between the police and not only the youngsters but many older, perfectly law-abiding and respectable citizens who are now not prepared to help the police because of that gap. There is a generation and cultural gap between the police and the younger generation, even without the exacerbating effect of unemployment.
  In my view, one of the main reasons why there has been less tension and disturbance, more dialogue and a generally better atmoshphere in the area that I represent and in which I live, and in neighbouring areas, is that over the past three or four years senior policemen have been prepared to go in alone to discuss and to argue with, to be slanged by, and—dare I say it—to slang informally themselves groups of alienated young black people, mainly young men, known locally as the "Rastas" or the "Dreads". They have gone into groups both of true Rastafarians—a totally peaceful religious group-and of those who often assume the dress or appearance of Rastafarians as a screen for somewhat illegal activities. I count us lucky that we have senior policemen who have gone unsupported into these groups of alienated young people and that, conversely, one now sees youngsters approach the police and talking to them on the streets and even, on occasion, in the police station.
  The police need support, and the public need protection, but perhaps the greatest need is understanding. However, neither the support nor the protection will come without the return of trust between the public and the police. Whether we like it or not, and whatever reasons we may give, that trust has been eroded over the years in many parts of the country. There must be a reinstatement of that trust, without which there cannot be public consent for policing or support for the police, and without which policing itself will not be effective.
  However, it is a two-way procedure. We cannot ask the public to help and trust the police without having an equal effort from the police. The House has the right to ask the police, under whatever strain they may be, to adopt a logical, calm and sensible approach in this time-consuming task so that we can once more reinstate that trust and go forward once more to having community policing—a phrase I had not intended to use—and good
  1168
  relations between police and public. Without that, we shall not have a system of justice and policing that is accepted by the community as a whole.
  9.6 pm
  Mr. William Pitt: The hour is late and we have heard much about vengeance, and calls for sanctions against violence in the form of capital punishment and flogging for crimes that should never incur such sanctions. We have heard very little from Conservative Members about effective policing, and that is what the debate is supposed to be about.
  We must remember two cardinal points if we are to have effective policing. The community must trust the police and the police must trust the community. It saddens me that the Home Secretary has considered implementing stop-and-search procedures and giving increased powers for the police to search premises without a warrant. These powers will be used not in the area that I represent—the pleasant suburbs of South London—but in areas such as Brixton, where I worked for six years, Islington, and the inner city areas of Toxteth and St. Paul's, because those areas have the highest crime rates.
  Moreover, those powers will have exactly the opposite effect to my two cardinal points. They will not give the community confidence in the police and, I suspect, they will not give the police confidence in the community. Relationships that are already tenuous and fragile will break down at a moment's notice.
  It is no coincidence that the Swamp '81 operation last year was the spark that caused the riots. Anyone who was for any length of time in the two streets affected—I walked up and down them every day for three and a half years—will know what I mean. Tension was built up because of an overt and over-active police presence.
  Police efficiency depends on being anticipatory, not reactive. That means that we must have—I hope that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Miss Wright) will forgive my using the phrase—community policing. Our policemen must be in the community, on the beat and relating to the community.
  Those are the points that we should have been considering today. There has been too much rhetoric from the Conservative Benches in putting the case for capital punishment, corporal punishment and further overt sanctions. That is not what the debate is about. I had hoped that we would learn from the Conservatives how they would produce an effective community-related police force that could get to the bottom of the terrible crime figures in the urban areas. Sadly, we were not fortunate enough to be given that information.
  9.9 pm
  Mr. Peter Archer: It may be worth saying at the outset what the debate has not been about. It has not been a debate between those who care about law and order and those who are in favour of more crime or who believe that there is virtue in anarchy. It has not been a debate between those who care for the victims and those who are indifferent to them. I am as troubled as any hon. Member that my constituents are reluctant to use the underpass in Oldbury road at night. Those people are not the rich protecting their property. If they were rich they would not be using the underpass, but would be driving past it. And we are not talking about serious professional crimes, of which the Home Secretary initially spoke. As

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  my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Miss Wright) said, their problem has nothing to do with capital punishment.
  I recently read an excellent book by Mr. R. N. Davidson entitled "Crime and Environment". He begins with a salutary warning against deriving any oversimplified conclusion from statistics, but it emerges generally that it is not the affluent areas that are most susceptible to crimes even against property. Geographically, crime takes place mostly in the inner cities and deprived areas.
  The Home Secretary spoke of the contribution that could be made to the fight against crime by the installation of anti-burglar devices. It may be worth reminding him, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Soley) did, that part of the problem about the elderly population who are afraid of crime in those areas is that they cannot afford such devices. If resources were made available for such anti-burglar devices, if more caretakers in blocks of flats were provided, and if there were a little more lighting in dark places, that might be a more effective use of resources. Lawlessness threatens the most vulnerable, the least articulate and the least privileged in the community. The debate has not been about that subject.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) defined the subject matter of the debate. It is about the most effective way to strengthen law and order. It is a question of fact. And it has nothing to do with moral judgments or excuses for wrongdoers.
  It is natural that sometimes we look first to sanctions and penal policy. Those subjects have been debated on other occasions. They have formed a small part of this debate. I can understand why, when people read of a particularly brutal crime, they wish that they could do something effective. It is frustrating when they cannot. They react—sometimes react—by calling for harsher punishments. That makes us feel better. I understand that reaction. But it is harder to forgive the reaction of those who fasten on to that with a demagoguery designed to make it appear that it is an effective method of protecting future victims against crime.
  At one stage in the debate I wondered what had become of the Conservative voices that we heard during the election campaign. But they emerged. The hon. and learned Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) was here after all. He seemed to assert that there were certain remedies, such as the return of capital punishment. He did not argue those remedies. I hope that he will forgive me if I say that his contribution was marginal to the theme of the debate. Most of us agree that what is important is that we should achieve a detection rate which will convince potential criminals that there will be a penalty.
  It is important that public sympathy should be with the victims. If there is a feeling that certain categories of wrongdoers are treated too harshly and subjected to inhumane conditions, sympathy is alienated from the victim to the wrongdoer. That has all the effects that we have been talking about tonight. People do not respond to the authorities responsible for law and order. For me, a strong argument is the story of the little girl who, on the morning of the execution, was heard to comment "Poor Dr. Crippen."
  1170
  I shall now turn to some more constructive matters. One of the most effective controls is the approval or disapproval of the community, friends, neighbours, and the family. That is probably the strongest and most effective factor of all. If the vast majority of those whose views a person respects and for whose approval he cares influence him strongly in the direction of complying with the law, there is no more powerful influence on conduct.
  We need a strategy which in each community seeks to build up a collective belief that it is to the benefit of everyone to strengthen law and order. That has three corollaries. First, it would help if unemployment were reduced. That does not mean that everyone who is unemployed immediately commits a crime. It means that if a whole community believes that no one is listening to its grievances, if it believes that it cannot find redress within what is called "the system", that will weaken the collective belief that each of its members has a stake in an orderly community. It does not mean that all its members become criminals, but it does mean that the restraints on the potential criminals are much weaker.
  The second corollary is that our strategy should be to maximise the number of people in each group who are on the side of law and order. That will not be achieved if the authorities responsible for law and order are seen as confronting them, as their natural enemies.
  In 1980 I was privileged to take the chair at a seminar arranged by the Wyndham Place Trust. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has read the report, but I would be happy to send him a copy. One of the people there was Dr. Alex Dickson, the director of Community Service Volunteers. He spoke of the way in which even delinquent younsters may be brought to believe that they are on the side of those who argue for the community. He spoke of delinquent youngsters in California who are helping with the environment—preserving the woodland, for example. He said that what they were doing was discussed at a conference in New York, where someone said "That is fine in California, but show us the urban equivalent of a forest fire".
  There is an urban equivalent of a forest fire. There are parts of the subway in New York which are regarded as unsafe to ride at night because of the danger of being attacked and robbed. There is a group of young volunteers who ride the underground protecting travellers. They come from the district where the robberies take place. They rarely need to use violence because they are known to the potential robbers. They come from the same community and the same ethnic groups, but they are totally dedicated to ensuring the safety of passengers. To mark their commitment and esprit de corps they wear a uniform and a red beret. I believe that there was an article about them recently in one of the Sunday papers. The potential poachers are dedicated gamekeepers.
  The third corollary is this. It is important that, when people co-operate, the fact should be recognised. Mia Pringle has set out how many offences were committed by young people who were never noticed at school—they were not noticed in class or on the sports field. They do not know how to attract notice. If they give up a weekend to help the handicapped, no one wants to know, but if they burn down the town hall the media are round in no time, wanting to have an interview with their schoolteacher and their grandmother.
  There was a letter in The Times of 16 March this year from the Under-Sheriff of Greater London, Mr. Alistair

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  Black. He wrote about those receiving awards and commendations from judges at the Central Criminal Court for their contributions in enforcing taw and order. On the occasion of which he was speaking they included
  "a black special constable who, when off duty, saw a pickpocket gang at work and secured an arrest; two coloured brothers who were bitten, kicked and spat at in rescuing two ladies from a mugging attack in Seven Sisters Road; a store manager who chased a thief for over a mile before he and a black policeman made the arrest; an Asian shopkeeper and his wife attacked in their bedroom by four men and threatened with death unless the keys to their safe were handed over."
  He said that 10 of the 24 were coloured Londoners. The press was invited to that distribution, but not one representative came. He began his letter:
  "The black community in London must wonder what they have to do in terms of courage and service to people and police to merit recognition in the national press."
  Our strategy should be to ensure that anything which alienates a community and causes it to believe that the law is unfair and which distances it from those who enforce the law should be minimised, because that contributes to the sense of alienation. We must recognise that we live in a society which has a plurality of social groups, ethnic groups and age groups. Each of them can be an influence on its members to conform with the law or to go the other way. If any feel that their legitimate interests have been overlooked, there is a weakening of the social fabric on which law and order depend. I discussed this last week with a member of the West Indian community, who said that the last thing that they wish is to be the butt end of an election campaign.
  For example, where there is an attempt to suppress a practice that a community may regard as innocuous, the fabric is weakened. It was silly to try to prevent Sikh bus conductors from wearing turbans. The law had a little more difficulty with the practice of child brides in the Muslim community, but it effectively surmounted those problems. We may have to consider some of the implications of our cultural plurality.
  And tolerance is not just a passive attitude—a leaving alone—because in certain areas ethnic minorities believe, rightly or wrongly, that the police are less assiduous in protecting them against crime and less likely to take their complaints seriously than in the case of the indigenous population. If they are right, that is worrying. They are entitled to be taken seriously not when they are indistinguishable from other people, not when they lose their identity in a crowd, but when they are conspicuously but lawfully pursuing their traditions, such as wearing turbans or saris, enjoying their carnivals or congregating in temples.
  My hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Lyon) mentioned community policing in Handsworth. We have had a similar success in Sandwell. The secret was demonstrated by my hon. Friend the Member for Handsworth. It was not just a cosmetic appointment of community policemen. Senior police officers discussed with the community where the shoe was pinching. Some of them are on first name terms with members of the local community. The officers responsible for taking policing decisions were those who came and listened. Those who would deny to any minority its legitimate aspirations, and who leave its members with a mutually supportive feeling of injustice and frustration, are the real enemies of law and order.
  In that context we should consider not only what the police are really like, but how they are perceived by the
  1172
  public. Again, this is not a debate between those who are in favour of supporting the police and those who wish to see the police unsuccessful in upholding the law. The debate is about the best way to ensure that they are successful in securing the support of the community, of which the Lord Chief Justice spoke last night in another place and which some hon. Members have mentioned.
  The Home Secretary was less than fair when he spoke of inheriting a rundown in the police force. The Labour Government of which I was privileged to be a member inherited a rundown in 1974. At the end of their period in office there were 7,000 more policemen than at the beginning. There were more policemen than at any previous time in Britain's history. Of course there were not enough, and we welcome the further recruitment, because, for many reasons, we need continual increases in the police force. But the Home Secretary cannot complain of the rejoinder of my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk), that if we are really playing party politics, since the Government came to office the crime rate has increased faster than it was increasing be fore and the detection rate has fallen.
  Let us return to the principal question of how the police can be supported. Naturally it entails speaking out in their support when they are unfairly attacked or when obstacles are placed in their way. But I do not believe that it is best achieved by pretending that they are totally incapable of making a mistake; that the present methods of policing are beyond improvement. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North said, it is sometimes the function of a friend to help someone to change ways which stand in need of change. We all know that there are those in the police force who would welcome that kind of support. It was the Home Secretary who said that the more facts we can publish the better. Of course, they must be facts based on genuine statistics and not what my right hon. Friend called statistical garbage. But we should have as many facts as possible.
  The police are in the front line, and for that reason what they do helps to determine whether large sections of the public are prepared to co-operate in the interests of law and order or whether they regard law enforcement authorities with hostility. It is the public who assess whether the police are assiduous in their attempts to detect crime or whether they are indifferent. It is the public who assess whether the police are sympathetic to those in trouble or whether they are insensitive. It is the public who assess whether those who attempt to co-operate with offers of information are appreciated or whether they are brushed off. People who are questioned or searched assess whether the operation was carried out with courtesy and consideration, or arrogantly and inconsiderately.
  There is concern about the Home Secretary's attitude to the report of the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure. That report was intended to be a balanced package. If the right hon. Gentleman takes only the parts of that package which operate in one direction, and totally ignores the rest, he must not be surprised if he finds that that is strongly resented and resisted. [Interruption.] I give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I apologise for having interrupted from a sedentary position. My impression was that in a public statement the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) condemned the report of the Royal Commission.
  Mr. Archer: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. We would not wish to implement the package, but it would be much more strongly resisted if we got only the half of the package which we condemned. Surely even the hon. Gentleman can understand that.
  Those of us who wish to help the police, and who have many friends within the police force arguing in the same direction, realise what the public reaction will be if they lose confidence in the integrity of the police. That does not come from me. In an article 18 months ago in Police Review, Lord Devlin suggested that the reason for what the police see as an unduly high rate of acquittals is not necessarily the inadequacy of police powers, but scepticism among juries of the honesty of police evidence.
  That is not because the majority of police are dishonest. Lord Devlin said:
  "Public knowledge is now fed not only by the professionals but by a trickle of cases in the newspapers involving wicked and dishonest police officers; a small minority, the good citizen assures himself; and he is right, but it is enough to pollute."
  Lord Devlin added that it was not a question of the collective level of trustworthiness falling below 100 per cent.
  He went on to say:
  "If I were to say that 80 per cent. are absolutely sound in all respects, it might be a substantial under-estimate. But in a system that operates on 100 per cent. with perhaps a small discount for the inevitable failures, a drop to 90 per cent. or, say, 85 per cent., is a catastrophe."
  To that there is now added a suspicion that not all police begin with a totally open mind and form conclusions objectively on the evidence.
  One of my hon. Friends pointed to recent research which suggests that the police force attracts some recruits whose attitudes are conformist rather than tolerant and authoritarian rather than egalitarian. I am not referring to the research of sociology graduates from the mid-1960s. An investigation conducted at Leicester university by Detective Chief Inspector Paul Gorman, in the course of a study in psychology, indicated that police recruits included a higher proportion of illiberal attitudes than were found among a control group chosen from the general community.
  Mr. Soley: I see that the Home Secretary disagrees. It would be a pity to miss this point. The Metropolitan Police training school has been good in recognising that problem and in admitting openly that it has to dismiss officers for being too authoritarian. It is open and honest enough to recognise that it is a problem and perhaps we should do so and thus help them.
  Mr. Archer: Of course it is commendable that the police should make such research possible and that they should publish the results, but we should not do them a service if we were then to pretend that such facts do not exist. As the Home Secretary said, it is important to have the facts. In that research the responses to questions on race were particularly disturbing. The report quoted one or two of the answers of recruits. One wrote that
  "over 50 per cent. of trouble caused today is either by niggers or because of them. Most of them are just Dirty, Smelly, Backward people who will never change in a month of Sundays."
  Of course, many examples of different responses could be given. It is easy to say that the police are a cross-section of the community. But, I am not sure that they should be. That should not be our aim. It would be no answer to say that the illiterate, the physically disabled, the elderly and the mentally handicapped should be represented in the
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  police. And there should not be representation for those whose attitudes disqualify them from acting as the agents of justice. Of course no selection procedures are infallible, but until we reduce the extent of such attitudes we must help the police to change the way in which selection operates.
  That is one reason why public confidence in the police complaints procedure must be restored. I shall not go into the details, because we have discussed it many times. Again hon. Members have discussed the extent to which the police should be accountable to an elected authority. Indeed, recent events have highlighted that debate. When the proposal was originally made in June 1980, it evoked a robust response from Mr. James Jardine of the Police Federation. In the Police magazine for that month, he addressed a plea to the Home Secretary entitled: "Keep Politics out of the Police Service".
  The sub-title stated:
  "When critics demand greater police accountability, what they want is more political control."
  Certainly whether a proposal is described as "political control" or "greater accountability" depends to some extent on one's point of view.
  If police officers, particularly senior police officers, make controversial statements, they should not be surprised if they find themselves in the middle of a controversy. That is the case for political accountability. During a discussion on the report of the Royal Commission at the annual conference of the Police Superintendents Association, Chief Superintendent Timothy Hill said:
  "The need to protect the rights of the individual and the provision of assistance that does not give the criminal element opportunity to commit crime with impunity has to be finely balanced"—
  so far, there can be no complaint—
  "and I believe the police service must be vociferous in trying to ensure that the balance if anything is in favour of the law abiding."
  He appears to overlook the fact that the very processes under discussion were specifically designed to discover who was and who was not law abiding. The assumption seems to be that, if anything, the balance must be against those suspected by the police because they are, by definition, not law abiding. The case for political accountability is virtually made by the police. They cannot enter the political arena and then complain that they do not want anything to do with politics.
  The remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Morris) have indicated a further matter. If the law is to retain the support of public opinion, we must develop a proprietary interest among the public for what they should regard as their legal system. That will be achieved partly by persuading people that the law not only stops them from doing what they would like to do. It exists to help them when they need it. Employees, tenants, and consumers should be persuaded that the law is interested in their problems and that it can offer an effective redress for their grievances. That entails access to competent advice, to law centres, advisory services and legal aid. Those are matters which we shall be discussing soon.
  I believe that people will respect the law if they believe that the law respects them. But there is a lack of confidence among many ordinary people that the law can be effective to help them. One often hears questions such as "What chance have I against a big company?" That is frequently the termination of a discussion about a

  1175
  consumer problem. A survey in 1973 by Professors Abel-Smith and Zander and by Miss Rosalind Brook found that a third of those interviewed failed to take advice about substantial problems. In a disturbing number of cases the question "Why?" produced answers such as "It is no good" or "It is a waste of time", or "You do not get anywhere." Even when the system is fully effective there will be a long haul to build up public confidence. But if we can do that, it will be more effective in reducing crime than anything that can be done by excluding people with convictions from juries.
  The House is agreed, after a restrained debate, that we are looking for the most effective method of increasing public confidence in the legal system, in the agents of law enforcement and in the importance of law and order. It is a pity that what the Conservative Party was saying during the general election campaign was not similarly restrained. Then the voice was that of the hon. and learned Member for Burton. It is a pity that the Conservative Party does not make it clear that it is not in sympathy with those in its ranks who fasten on to the most hysterical and least constructive bandwagons.
  But, perhaps after today we can send an agreed message from the House that we all want to see the protection of the public from crime, the protection of law and order and maximum support for the police. That will be achieved not by turning law and order into an election slogan, not by encouraging hysteria, not by misrepresenting those who urge moderation, but by securing the support of the whole community for law and order.
  9.43 pm
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Patrick Mayhew): We have had a serious debate on a serious subject. It is a subject that imposes on my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary a most onerous responsibility. At the outset, I express my gratitude to the many right hon. and hon. Members who have complimented my right hon. Friend. They include the right hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden), my hon. Friends the Members for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), Paddington (Mr. Wheeler), Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Cadbury) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence). I am grateful for what they have said about the way in which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has discharged his responsibility in these anxious times.
  Not the least of the advantages of the debate has been the focus that has been put on what constitutes effective policing. I agree with what the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer) said in his thoughtful speech. I agree that we must all seek to achieve the greatest degree of public confidence in our policing arrangements. However, we are entitled to consider the various alternatives that are on offer and to comment on their likely success or lack of success.
  When most of our constituents are asked what they regard as effective policing they will say that it means that there are plenty of policemen about, or, in the phrase that has been used, plenty of bobbies on the beat. I noticed that that was the first of the two themes that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) identified. He described it as the old relationship between the police and the public—the re-establishment of foot patrols.
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  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds that that is not the whole of the matter, but it goes a long way. Therefore, I think that our constituents are right in believing that if beats are properly laid out and sufficiently patrolled—not in panda cars but by mature and experienced constables on foot who are properly equipped with radio and backed up by mobile reinforcements and modern technological aids—people and property will be safer as attacks on either side will be more difficult. Of course they are right, not least because the officers will know their districts and the people will know them personally.
  Surely that is what is meant, to a great extent. by the rather fashionable phrase "community policing". There is nothing new in that practice. As my hon. Friends the Members for Paddington and Northfield have said, the police have been about it for many years. Yesterday The Standard put it this way:
  "Community policing has become a fashionable phrase. All it means is what most of us took for granted in the old days when the policemen was one of us and not one of them."
  I think that we all agree on the Government Benches that when a policeman is experienced and has the status of "one of us" rather than of "one of them" more crime is likely to be detected or prevented. I agree that detection rates are a source of anxiety. The police are taking a long time to recover from the haemorrhage of experienced police officers of which my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds spoke during the years when police pay fell so far behind that of others.
  It is good to see how widely spread the conversion to the doctrine of the bobby on the beat has become. I agree with the reaction of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West to the speech of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. I think that we all on the Government Benches have always believed in that doctrine. We believe that much damage was done by the wholesale conversion to panda car patrolling which was encouraged by the Labour Government in the 1960s when Mr. Roy Jenkins was Home Secretary.
  If we are to have bobbies on the beat, as our constituents rightly want, we have to have numbers and we need experienced constables. That was the previous Labour Government's problem and country's misfortune. When the Labour Government left office there were over 8,000 fewer police officers in England and Wales than there are today. Fair and generous tribute has been paid to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on his achievement in increasing police numbers. In each of the two years before 1979 police numbers in London fell. The Labour Government either could not or would not recruit more police officers. I think that they believed that they could not do so, but they could have done so had they been prepared to pay the rate for what is a dangerous and difficult job. They tried to get the bobby on the cheap. The consequence was that they failed. Experienced men and women who formed the core of police forces left in droves. Morale was at breaking point and the Home Secretary of the day had to ask someone else to say what the rate for the job should be.
  We all know that the then Home Secretary had the good sense to ask Lord Edmund-Davies to determine what the rate should be, and he reported in July 1978 that pay improvements were essential to staunch the then outflow. He said that there should be an increase of 40 per cent. More than that, he said that the increase should be paid in

  1177
  full on 1 September 1978. That, said Lord Edmund-Davies, was the basic assumption of his award. On the next day my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary—he deserves the gratitude of us all for having done this—pledged the Conservative Party to the implementation of the full increase. It is, alas, well known that the then Labour Government in their expiring months held back until a year later one-half of the award.
  Happily the nation freed itself from the consequences of the previous Labour Government's mistake and by the end of 1979 numbers in the Metropolitan Police were back to what they had been three years before, and more besides. A year later another 1,000 had been added and by January of this year the Metropolitan Police had gained another 1,700 officers and had topped 25,000. That is how the commissioner has been able to put another 900 officers back on beat. It is planned that another 300 will go on the beat.
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West said, that is my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary's principal achievement. I can bring the matter nearer home, if it needs to be brought nearer home, because both the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook and the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West represent constituencies in the West Midlands. Thanks to the policies and the determination of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, their constituencies now have the protection of another 622 police officers.
  Important though it is to get more policemen on the beat, other things are needed. We have looked, and rightly, in the course of this debate at the policies put forward by the major political parties. We have to consider whether the other things that are needed to secure effective policing are likely to be obtained if the Labour Party should once again assume power.
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: It is obvious that although we are almost up to establishment everywhere we still do not have enough policemen on the beat. Does that not mean, therefore, that we should be revising establishments so that we can recruit more policemen?
  Mr. Mayhew: That is a matter for the operational responsibility of the chief constables. It will be recalled that in the case of quite a large number of police forces we have enlarged the establishment, and they are very nearly up to the higher establishment. This does not yet apply in London, but I believe I am right in saying that the Metropolitan Police are still recruiting at the rate of about 300 a month.
  Mr. Soley: It is important to consider establishments, but I hope that the Minister will also examine why the Tory Party has so seriously failed to maintain order on our streets leading to the riots and the increasing crime rate.
  Mr. Mayhew: The hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Soley) had a fair run round the course in a lengthy speech, not all of which I was able to hear. The hon. Member will know that all crime stems from evil, and that evil is both eternal and extraordinarily ingenious. The hon. Member will also know that the roots of crime are difficult to get at and that no Government can control the day-by-day measure of evil in the community. What they
  1178
  can do is to seek by means—of which the police are only one—to control the manifestation of crime. That is what we are doing.
  Mr. Hattersley: Since the Minister has made the theological point, could he explain why there has been more evil in the last three years than in the previous two?
  Mr. Mayhew: Evil derives from a great number of things. Many have spoken today—and many spoke yesterday in another place—of the fairly rapid collapse of those forces of discipline and order that have helped to restrain the basic evil that is always present in any community.
  I shall take two of the matters upon which effective policing depends. The police must have those powers which are needed in a free society to bring the criminal to justice. These are certainly matters of judgment, and that is no doubt why the last Government appointed the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure. It made proposals for powers of search. It said that the existing powers of the police to stop and search people in public places had developed haphazardly and often anomalously over more than a century. It said that they were contained in more than a score of Acts of Parliament with no common rationale. It said that in some instances the police do not have the legal power to stop and search for stolen goods. They went on to make proposals.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said earlier today:
  "I accept the case…for some extension of police powers, in particular by rationalising the existing powers to stop and search for stolen goods, and by introducing powers to stop and search people for offensive weapons, and to search premises for evidence in difficult cases."
  I would have thought that that was plainly right and necessary as a matter of principle. Of course, there is a question of balance. The right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon made that point. There is room for argument as to the precise balance, but I must point out to the House that a future Labour Government would be bound by the official Labour policy endorsed at their 1981 conference not to implement any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission which seek to give the police additional powers to stop, search, arrest or detain. I think there will be many who will find that inauspicious for the prospects of effective policing should the Labour Party once more come to power.
  Effective policing means politically impartial policing. That can only be attained by operational freedom from political control. Again, the next Labour Government would be bound by its conference to abolish the magistrates' seats on the police committees. They would be bound to introduce what is described as
  "effective democratic control through the setting up of police authorities throughout Britain, including London, with stronger powers than those enjoyed by existing police committees…such powers to include the approval of all police policies, the appointment of senior officers, control over resources and manpower, training, disciplinary power, and the development of police/community relations."
  When my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds asked if this meant that if the police committee, thus elected, declined to make provision for protective equipment, the police had to take the brickbats and the casualties and put up with it, the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said "Yes. That is called democracy." He said that the people would have their remedy two years later

  1179
  at the next election. I doubt whether that will be thought satisfactory either by the police of the future or by the community that they serve.
  The policing arrangements in this country are founded in a statutory framework that hon. Members know well, based upon the Police Act 1964. The Government remain firmly of the view that our present constitutional arrangements, which aim to prevent political interference, are in the best interests of both the public and the police.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds asked me a couple of questions. The points that he rightly raised on the development of common tactics among police forces have been well taken. This was one of the issues discussed at the comprehensive seminar at the police staff college this week to which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has referred. The same is true of the provision of protective vehicles for the transportation of police.
  My hon. Friend also asked about resources for increased training. I believe that it is sensible, first, to determine what extra training is needed. Then we can come to the question of how much can be met from existing resources and how much will have to be met from other resources. The effect on policing in London of the Labour Party's conference policy may be judged by the fact that the party is also bound by another policy decision to disband the Special Patrol Group of the Metropolitan Police. It is interesting that Lord Scarman's report to which the Opposition frequently refer is forthright in its support of the Special Patrol Group. Lord Scarman says:
  "It was suggested that the Group should be disbanded, or that it should no longer be used in areas such as Brixton. I do not concur with either of these suggestions. It is in my view essential, given modern policng conditions, for the Metropolitan Police to have a small mobile reserve at its disposal and for this to be capable of deployment on general policing duties in any part of the Metropolitan Police district".
  I hope that the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West will forgive me if I do not follow him into some of the lofty philosophical areas that he penetrated. I prefer to draw attention to the more practical consequences of the policies that his party would follow which I suggest will be of greater importance to the people of London and, indeed, to the people of every district that is to be policed—
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths rose—
  Mr. Mayhew: I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not give way. There is very little time.
  When the subject of the debate is the need to secure a reduction in the level of crime, this is something upon which all hon. Members can fervently agree. All the effective policing for which we can wish could, to a large extent, be frustrated if there were not sufficient prison places for the dangerous criminals who are caught and whom the courts think it right to send to prison. Otherwise, the police who caught them and secured their conviction would all too soon once more find themselves contending with those customers again, and the public would suffer from their attentions. With insufficient places in the prison system, effective policing will be impossible because once again they will be coping with recidivists who should have been kept in prison—if they are dangerous to the public—for a substantial time, as the Lord Chief Justice made clear yesterday in another place.
  That is why it is so important, as my hon. Friend the Member for Northfield and others have pointed out, that
  1180
  we have embarked on what is the most ambitious building programme of the century. We are determined to ensure that there will be room in the prison system for every person whom the judges and magistrates decide should go there. We shall continue to do whatever is necessary for that purpose. I hope that answers the anxieties of my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Dover).
  The principal task of the prisons is to hold those whom the courts send there. That is what the public demand and have a right to expect. Despite the indifference of past Governments which have left it woefully under-resourced for carrying out that fundamental responsibility, the prison service has continued to cope with the increase in the prison population in recent years. In particular, it has coped with the vast increase in the number of dangerous and violent offenders who have been rightly given long prison sentences.
  It has an outstanding record on security which was praised by the May committee. It is vital for the protection of the public that the prison service should continue to cope but to do so it needs support. The Government have provided that support. We have increased the pay of prison officers and governors in line with the recommendations of the May committee. We have increased the numbers of prison officers and strengthened the management of the prison service. We have substantially increased expenditure on repairing and maintaining the prison estate which was neglected for so long and dramatically during the four years of the last Labour Government when year after year—as I had to point out when we had a debate on the prison service in November—they cut most desperately needed places.
  In 1974 the former Government inherited a programme aimed at meeting the shortfall of prison capacity by he 1980s. They immediately cancelled two major prisons which would have provided 1,600 places. A year later it was the same story: three further schemes which would have produced 1,600 places by 1980 were cancelled. Five schemes which would have produced 1,700 places in the early 1980s were deferred. About 5,000 places were lost or deferred as a result of those shortsighted decisions, which we are still paying for together with the prison officers whom we require to serve in those overcrowded and extremely unsatisfactory conditions.
  To be effective the police must have the confidence of the public. The public must never feel that they are riot told about the things that it is considered not good for them to know. That is why my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary thought it right that those figures should be published by the Metropolitan Police. Equally, the police must never be so remote from the community they serve—from which they themselves come—that they do not know it or are not known by it. That is why the Home Secretary was right to increase their numbers so that they should become known by the community and corn to know the community.
  I believe that the contrast in the two opening speeches was very marked. The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook placed his faith on enlarging the numbers on the beat and what he describes as a democratic system of control by replacing the existing system of police committees. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in a wide-ranging and practical strategy embracing terrorism, public order, serious and highly organised crime, and the persistent problems of burglary and street robbery, included a properly organised policy of police community support,

  1181
  but did not place all the burden on the police. On the contrary, he brought in those with responsibility for the family, schooling, the environment, and jurors who try those whom our police have brought to the courts. That was a far more comprehensive and realistic strategy. I know what our constituents will prefer.
  Mr. Robert Boscawen (Lord's Commissioner to the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  Law and Order
    EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS

      EXPORT REFUNDS ON MILK PRODUCTS
      Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73B(5) (Standing Committee on European Community Documents),
      That this House takes note of European Community Document No. 10852/81 containing a proposal for the introduction of a tendering procedure for the granting of export refunds on certain milk products, and supports the aim of exercising greater control over the volume and cost of exports; but urges the Government to take all practical steps to ensure that the measure does not damage the competitive position of United Kingdom traders.—[Mr. Boscawen]
      Question agreed to.

    MR. SPEAKER'S ABSENCE
    Ordered,
    That Mr. Speaker have leave of absence on Friday 2nd April to receive an honorary Fellowship of the Polytechnic of Wales.—[Mr. Pym.]

  Mrs. Paulette Grayson
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. Boscawen.]
  10 pm
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: Mrs. Paulette Grayson is a widow. She was twice married. By her first husband she had two children. One has died. The other, a son, aged 26, suffers from spina bifida. He is a "severely disabled person" within the meaning of section 37 of the Social Security Act 1975 and has at all material times been in receipt of an attendance allowance.
  Mrs. Grayson married for the second time on 24 December 1975. On 3 May 1976 she made a claim for invalid care allowance, on the basis that she was engaged in caring for her son. It is not disputed that except for a matter to which I shall refer she was entitled to that allowance up to the time when she was widowed, on 9 November 1978. Because she was thereafter in receipt of widow's benefit, she lost her entitlement to invalid care allowance, under the overlapping benefits principle. Her application was prejudiced by the fact that section 37(3)(a) prohibits payment of the allowance to a married woman who
  "is residing with her husband"
  or whose husband
  "is contributing to her maintenance".
  The difficulty in Mrs. Grayson's case is that although she married for the second time on 24 December 1975 her second marriage soon broke down. Her husband lived with her in the same house for only a few months, and after that he was largely absent, visiting the matrimonial home only occasionally and paying nothing towards the expenses. By some accounts he had a drink problem. The report that I have from a local social worker says that he was
  "of diminished responsibility, unable to sort out fact and fantasy."
  In November 1976, 11 months after the marriage, he went to live in a YMCA hostel in West London. He still returned to the matrimonial home occasionally, but the marriage seems virtually to have come to an end long before he died, after being in and out of hospital, on 9 November 1978.
  By 3 May 1976 Mrs. Grayson considered herself to be married but separated, and she so indicated her status on the form on which she applied for invalid care allowance. It is noteworthy that she completed the form in her married name under her first marriage, which was the surname of her son.
  However, the claim was accepted on this basis and the allowance was paid until 14 May 1978 when it was realised that Mrs. Grayson was not using her husband's name. It was then assumed that she had been living with her husband and was, therefore, ineligible for the invalid care allowance. She was told to pay some £901·50 which had by then been overpaid. These facts are largely agreed.
  Mrs. Grayson appealed against the insurance officer's decision requiring her to repay the allowance. She appeared in person before the local appeal tribunal and explained about her marriage having broken down soon after it had started. The tribunal found the facts as I have stated and, by a majority, the chairman dissenting, took the view that the pressures on Mrs. Grayson from having a handicapped son and an alcoholic husband were such that she had used due care and diligence to avoid the overpayment. Therefore, the tribunal decided that she was

  1183
  not required to repay the money. So far so good. It seems extraordinary that a wife could be deemed to be residing with a husband who was habitually absent from the matrimonial home, in the circumstances I have described. However, at least Mrs. Grayson was spared the injustice of being required to pay the £901-odd back. Things went wrong from then on.
  First, the insurance officer appealed from the tribunal's decision on the due care and diligence question. Therefore, that case went to the social security commissioner who decided that he was entitled, despited the appeal being on that narrow point, to consider the whole case afresh.
  Secondly, the notice on form LT27, which was sent to Mrs. Grayson concerning the appeal, stated in effect that the insurance officer had 28 days in which to appeal. The insurance officer's notice of appeal was 49 days after the decision was made. During those 49 days, Mrs. Grayson was relieved of the worry and risk of being required to pay back the £901·50.
  The notice was apparently in the wrong form—three months being allowed for this sort of case. It gave the impression that an appeal by the insurance officer had to be within 28 days. Therefore, Mrs. Grayson had the impression for some time that no appeal was possible and that she had succeeded.
  Thirdly, on the main issue whether Mrs. Grayson and her husband were "residing together" for the purposes of the Act, the commissioner found against Mrs. Grayson. He cited the authorities and said that temporary absence did not mean that a husband and wife were not living or residing together for the purposes of the invalid care regulations. He found, in Mrs. Grayson's case, that the husband was not living or residing with her after he went to live at the YMCA hostel in November 1976. That was the first point, after he had left the home, at which it was possible to say with certainty that he was living away. After that, again using the authorities established by previous decisions of a social security commissioner, the commissioner held that the absence continued to be deemed temporary until the expiration of a further 12 months. Only at the end of that time was it allowable that Mrs. Grayson's husband was no longer residing with her. Therefore, the allowance that she had been paid was not properly authorised.
  The commissioner also said that he could find no special feature in the case to justify an exception to the rule because he thought that the husband was at Mrs. Grayson's house
  "more often than she cared to admit."
  The case seems to me to be quite ridiculous in its application to a real case of what was obviously hardship, and some misery. If a husband deserts the matrimonial home, leaving his wife with a severely handicapped child to care for, and while contributing nothing to the expenses of the home chooses to visit it from time to time, it is surely wildly unfair on that account to penalise the wife and to insist on the repayment of the sum of money paid to her for looking after the child.
  I do not doubt that the commissioner had his law right. He is no doubt bound by the authorities and precedents that he quoted. No appeal lies from him except on a point of law, and the time for appeal has expired, so the judicial application of the case has now ended. But the commissioner went further than deciding the law. He
  1184
  chose to reverse the findings of the tribunal on the facts and held that Mrs. Grayson had not, after all, used due care and diligence in avoiding the overpayment.
  The Commissioner accepted that the husband may have, on his visits to the matrimonial home after his initial desertion, collected the mail and signed and cashed the allowance cheques himself. However, the Commissioner says:
  "She knew what was going on and did nothing to bring the matter to the attention of the Department".
  That is assuming a standard of knowledge of cases of that kind which the ordinary, sensible and fair person would not assume. He went on:
  "She acquiesced in what took place and for that reason she is (in the absence of due care and diligence) as much liable to repaying as if the payment had been made to her."
  That is an astonishing conclusion that adds to the injustice of the case. I know that this case has been decided by what is officially an independent adjudicating authority over which the Minister has no power. However, surely an injustice such as this, which seems applicable to perhaps hundreds of similar cases of deserted wives, should not remain unremedied. At least it should be possible to remit the penalty imposed on Mrs. Grayson. How is it possible, in fairness, to require her to pay back such a large sum, or whatever sum is finally calculated on the basis of what she may have been entitled to and did not receive?
  How is it possible to insist upon repayment in circumstances such as these? We are dealing with a case, as in so many cases in social security, of hardship, poverty and suffering. Yet the regulations apparently insist on repayment. It has been suggested to Mrs. Grayson that repayments should be made out of her widow's benefit. Goodness knows how long would it be possible for her to pay such a large sum out of her pension.
  After all, it seems unfair, because the actual penalty was remitted by the appeal tribunal in the first instance. Therefore, this case having been taken further on what was in essence a point of law, it seems wrong to insist now that the position has been overturned by the social security commissioner and to demand a reversal of that finding arid the money paid to be paid back. It seems like victimisation. In those circumstances, I hope that the Minister can find some way to meet the justice of the case
  10.15 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Tony Newton): My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) has raised the subject of the rules governing invalid care allowance as they affect his constituent Mrs. Paulette Grayson. In his recent correspondence on this matter with my hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security, he has again demonstrated his concern for his constituent's interests and this debate is further evidence of that concern. If I may say so, Mrs. Grayson is very lucky in her Member of Parliament.
  Before turning to the particular instance of Mrs. Grayson's case, I should make clear the general situation relating to married women and their entitlement to invalid care allowance.
  ICA was introduced in 1976 as a non-contributory social security benefit for someone who stays at home to care for a severely disabled person. It was intended to provide for those who were thought to be most likely to

  1185
  be the sole provider for themselves or their families. For this reason, a married woman who resides with or is supported by her husband is not eligible. There have been representations that all married women should be able to receive the benefit, but such an extension could cost at least £40 million per year. It therefore stands as one of a number of competing priorities in the disablement field which the Government will consider as new resources become available. Meanwhile, we can deal only with the law as it is.
  I come now to the particular case raised by my hon. Friend. As he has said, Mrs. Grayson has a severely handicapped son and claimed ICA on 3 May 1976. She stated on the claim form that her name was Paulette Grayson and indicated that she was married but separated from her husband. In response to a written inquiry from the Department's offices at Blackpool, Mrs. Grayson said that she was not receiving any maintenance from her husband. On the basis of those statements, ICA was paid to Mrs. Grayson with effect from 5 July 1976, the date from which ICA first became payable after its introduction.
  In 1978 it was discovered that Mrs. Grayson, having divorced Mr. Grayson, had married a Mr. Christie on 24 December 1975—that is, just over four months before claiming ICA as Mrs. Grayson. As a result of subsequent inquiries, the insurance officer—who, as I must emphasise, and as my hon. Friend has recognised, is a statutory authority independent of Ministers—decided on 15 April 1980 that Mrs. Grayson was not entitled to ICA for the period July 1976 to 12 November 1978—Mr. Christie having died on 9 November 1978—because during that period she had been married to and was residing with Mr. Christie. The insurance officer also decided that an overpayment of ICA of £901·50 had been made for the period 5 July 1976 to 14 May 1978, the last date on which ICA had been paid. The insurance officer further decided that repayment was required because Mrs. Grayson had not used due care and diligence, which is what the law asks, to avoid the overpayment.
  As my hon. Friend said, Mrs. Grayson then exercised her right to appeal to a local tribunal against the decision of the insurance officer, and on 8 December 1980 the tribunal upheld the decision that Mrs. Grayson was not entitled to the benefit for the period in question. The tribunal also decided, on a majority decision, that repayment of the overpayment was not required because in their view Mrs. Grayson had exercised due care and diligence—in other words, exactly as my hon. Friend described.
  On 26 January 1981, the insurance officer appealed to the social security commissioner against the decision that repayment was not required. Unfortunately, Mrs. Grayson was inadvertently notified of the local tribunal's decision on a form that stated that the right of appeal should be exercised within 28 days. That form was not appropriate to the situation in which Mrs. Grayson found herself and the notification should have made it clear that an appeal could be made within three months of the tribunal's decision. It is regrettable that that happened.
  The social security commissioner who heard the subsequent appeal commented that the notice issued by the tribunal, as well as being inappropriate, was misleading and that it was entirely understandable that Mrs. Grayson
  1186
  should have thought that after 28 days had elapsed without an appeal, she could not be required to repay £901·50. However, the commissioner also said that the slip on the part of the local tribunal did not preclude an appeal by the insurance officer.
  The commissioner was able to consider whether an overpayment of benefit had occurred and, if so, whether repayment was required. As my hon. Friend said, Mrs. Grayson presented her own case before the commissioner. The outcome was that the commissioner decided that ICA was properly paid for the period 14 November 1977 to 14 May 1978 and, furthermore, that the allowance was payable for the period 15 May 1978 to 12 November 1978, for both periods on the ground that Mrs. Grayson was no longer residing with Mr. Christie.
  The commissioner also decided that benefit amounting to £628·50 for the period 5 July 1976 to 13 November 1977 had been overpaid and that, as Mrs. Grayson had not exercised due care and diligence, that sum was repayable. However, as his decision also meant that benefit of £274·95 was payable for the period May to November 1978, the net result was that the amount due to be repaid was reduced to £353·55, compared with the original figure of over £900.
  The fundamental issue in this case is whether Mrs. Grayson was not only married to, but residing with, Mr. Christie when she claimed ICA in May 1976 and subsequently. Mrs. Grayson has claimed that Mr. Christie left the household a few months after their marriage in December 1975. However, I emphasise that none of the adjudicating authorities—the insurance officer, the appeal tribunal or the social security commissioner—was able to accept that Mrs. Grayson had ceased to reside with Mr. Christie when she claimed ICA.
  The insurance officer decided that the couple had been residing together for the whole period for which ICA had been paid. The tribunal, after hearing Mrs. Grayson, confirmed that decision but decided that repayment was not required. The commissioner, to whom Mrs. Grayson presented her case at an oral hearing, decided that the couple were residing together until November 1976 when Mr. Christie went to live and work at a YMCA hostel. The commissioner further decided, in accordance with legal precedent, that the absence did not cease to be temporary until November 1977 and from that date Mrs. Grayson was no longer residing with Mr. Christie.
  The decisions relating to the proper payment of the allowance and the extent to which repayment was required were made by the independent adjudicating authorities and, as my hon. Friend is aware, neither Ministers nor officers of the Department have the power to intervene in their decisions. I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend, but I cannot add anything on that point.
  My hon. Friend wrote to my hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security in December 1981 and suggested that, where an appeal goes to a higher court or tribunal purely on a point of law, it is usual to provide that the individual does not suffer if the result of the appeal is to reverse the effect of a finding as to the facts. I would not necessarily accept that proposition, but in any event this was not a case of the kind in which the right of appeal existed only in relation to a question of law, or in which the appellate body had to consider only a particular point of law. The commissioner could and did regard the whole matter as being before him.

  1187
  My hon. Friend will realise from what I have said that it is not in my power to alter the legal requirement for Mrs. Grayson to repay the sum now being asked. I hope that he will also accept, however, that I am far from lacking sympathy with Mrs. Grayson's position. On the contrary, I considered it with anxious care. No one who looks at the history of the difficulties with which she has contended in the past few years could do otherwise. I cannot override the legal decisions that have been made. What I can and
  1188
  will do is to ask the invalid care unit to give every consideration to any reasonable offer for the terms of repayment which Mrs. Grayson is able to make. I know that that will not remove all the difficulties, but I hope that it will at least do something to help. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for having brought this case to our attention.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

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  Bonn
  Bonn
INDUSTRY
  British Steel Corporation
  British Steel Corporation
  Poland (Food Parcels)
  Poland (Food Parcels)
  Mail (Automatic Sorting)
  Mail (Automatic Sorting)
  Liverpool
  Liverpool
  Manchester
  Manchester
  British Telecom and the Post Office
  British Telecom and the Post Office
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Mortgage Interest Relief
  Mortgage Interest Relief
  Personal Allowances
  Personal Allowances
  Civil Servants (Irish Citizens)
  Civil Servants (Irish Citizens)
  Overseas Income (Taxation)
  Overseas Income (Taxation)
  Trading Profit
  Trading Profit
  European Community Budget
  European Community Budget
  Unemployment Costs
  Unemployment Costs
TRADE
  European Community (Tariff)
  European Community (Tariff)
  Offshore Supplies (Imports)
  Offshore Supplies (Imports)
  Home Safety (Exhibition)
  Home Safety (Exhibition)
  Arthur Price of England (Correspondence)
  Arthur Price of England (Correspondence)
  Holloware
  Holloware
  Feeding Bottles
  Feeding Bottles
  Civil Aviation Authority (Chairmanship)
  Civil Aviation Authority (Chairmanship)
  Credit
  Credit
WALES
  Ancillary Services
  Ancillary Services
  Unemployment Statistics (Port Talbot)
  Unemployment Statistics (Port Talbot)
DEFENCE
  NATO (High Level Group)
  NATO (High Level Group)
  Hawker Trainer Aircraft (Iraq)
  Hawker Trainer Aircraft (Iraq)
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Benefits
  Benefits
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease
  Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease
  Members of Parliament (Mental Illness)
  Members of Parliament (Mental Illness)
  Feeding Bottles
  Feeding Bottles
EMPLOYMENT
  Job Losses
  Job Losses
  Farm Wages
  Farm Wages
  Secret Ballots
  Secret Ballots
  Manchester
  Manchester
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Dental Services
  Dental Services
  Wild Birds
  Wild Birds
  Colleges of Education (Meals)
  Colleges of Education (Meals)
  Unemployment Statistics
  Unemployment Statistics
SCOTLAND
  Trident
  Trident
  Housing (Dundee)
  Housing (Dundee)
  Forestry Commission (Fishing Rights)
  Forestry Commission (Fishing Rights)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  "Monthly Digest of Statistics"
  "Monthly Digest of Statistics"
  Sugar
  Sugar
  Mevinphos
  Mevinphos
  Beef Herd
  Beef Herd
TRANSPORT
  London Transport
  London Transport
  A6 (Market Harborough)
  A6 (Market Harborough)
  Billesdon Bypass
  Billesdon Bypass
  Road Costs and Vehicle Taxation
  Road Costs and Vehicle Taxation
ENVIRONMENT
  Council House Sales
  Council House Sales
  Housing Statistics
  Housing Statistics
  Deep Mines
  Deep Mines
  Northumbrian Water Authority
  Northumbrian Water Authority
  Mobility Housing
  Mobility Housing
  Disabled Persons (Dwellings)
  Disabled Persons (Dwellings)
  Clayton Square, Liverpool
  Clayton Square, Liverpool
  Merseyside County Council
  Merseyside County Council
  Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1977
  Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1977
  Conservation Areas (Controls)
  Conservation Areas (Controls)
  Listed Buildings
  Listed Buildings
  Town and Country Planning Act 1971
  Town and Country Planning Act 1971
  Water Mains and Sewers
  Water Mains and Sewers
  Water Authorities (Manpower)
  Water Authorities (Manpower)
  Multi-occupied Housing
  Multi-occupied Housing
  Housing Safety Standards
  Housing Safety Standards
  Control Orders
  Control Orders
  Council Housing
  Council Housing
EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
  Passports
  Passports
  Water Authorities (Expenditure)
  Water Authorities (Expenditure)
  Manchester (Housing Subsidies)
  Manchester (Housing Subsidies)
  Nicaragua
  Nicaragua
  Spain
  Spain
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  El Salvador
  El Salvador
  Nicaragua
  Nicaragua
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Southwell): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

P. & O.: New Cruise Ship
Lord Auckland: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government under what circumstances the construction of the P. & O. £80 million cruise ship is being undertaken by the Wartsilä shipyard in Finland; what contracts were offered to United Kingdom shipyards, and for what period of time were the contracts put out to tender before the final decision was made.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, the selection of a contractor for this ship and the tendering procedures that were followed are commercial matters for P.& O. British Shipbuilders tendered for the ship but were unable to meet the delivery requirements, due to the corporation's success in securing other new orders.
Lord Auckland: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that last September I went to Finland and spent an afternoon at Wartsilä shipyard? Is my noble friend further aware that this is a very efficient shipyard, both in management and in union matters? Would my noble friend accept that the tendering for this particular vessel could surely lead to a reciprocal arrangement? And would he convey to his right honourable friend the desirability of a British team of shipbuilders visiting Wartsilä to see what progress they have made there, and vice versa? Finally, although I have the greatest respect for the efficiency of our British shipyards, would my noble friend agree that there is a very strong case for a visit of this kind to offset the trade deficit which we have with Finland, and possibly to get an order for our shipyards for a Finnish icebreaker or a similar vessel?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his great interest in this matter and for his raising it here. I hear what he says about a visit, and will certainly see that his suggestion is passed on to my right honourable friend. I am sure that my noble friend is aware that in fact British Shipbuilders have received an important export order from Scandinavian customers at the Swan Hunter yard, which also bid for the P.& O. order. Nevertheless, what my noble friend has said is helpful and I gladly undertake to convey it to those concerned.

Energy Policy and the Environment
3.4 p.m.
The Earl of Kinnoull: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of the New Forest inquiry, the Department of Energy and the Department of the Environment will jointly publish an energy policy statement covering all inland fossil extraction and indicating categories of sensitive conservation areas which would not be eligible for production licences over the next 30 years except on the ground of overriding national interest.
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Mansfield): My Lords, the New Forest Inquiry has been adjourned since 3rd February 1982 and is due to resume on 4th May 1982. Environmental factors are taken fully into account in consideration of planning applications for new energy developments. My right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Energy and for the Environment have no plans to publish a statement on the lines suggested by my noble friend.
The Earl of Kinnoull: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, would he agree that generally it is wholly undesirable to allow a production licence in a sensitive conservation area unless some national interest is involved? Would my noble friend agree that there should now be a national plan for inland energy resources? And may I ask him at what point there is consultation over these matters between the Department of Energy and the Department of the Environment?
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, if I may deal first with the last part of my noble friend's supplementary, I do not think that it would be either desirable or practicable in the present circumstances to have a plan such as my noble friend envisages. So far as the first part of his supplementary question is concerned, one has to distinguish between the licensing stage and the planning considerations that follow it. So far as the latter are concerned, once the Department of Energy, which is concerned with the issuing of licences, has completed its role it, as it were, stands aside. It is then for the local authority and, in proper cases, for the Department of the Environment, where the planning application is called in, to play their part in the planning procedures.
Lord Wynne-Jones: My Lords, is the noble Earl telling us, in effect, that the Government have no policy for energy and that they are continuing to allow every little detailed application to go forward without any reference to a context of general planning? Does he not realise that although at present the price of oil has fallen, the whole problem of energy policy becomes more important as this century reaches its close?
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, of course I do not accept the first part of the noble Lord's question. However, it is clearly important, in this uncertain world, for the Government to establish, so far as is possible, the extent and location of our reserves of oil

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and gas. Any specific exploration or production activity thereafter must of course be subject to the full planning procedures, and as part of those planning procedures proper consideration is given to all the environmental questions.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that what he has said amounts to an approach which is fragmentary and ad hoc? If he is saying that we need to explore our natural resources, would he not agree that it is equally important to remove unnecessary obstructions from those who seek to explore? And is my noble friend not aware that very often they are obstructed by differences about planning concerns on the one hand and public hysteria, in the name of the environment, on the other?
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, I would describe the Government's approach as ad hoc rather than fragmentary. However, I take my noble friend's point that the exploitation of our reserves of oil and gas is extremely important. But so are environmental considerations. What the Government have to do, and what they seek to do, is to hold a balance, taking into account the very proper responsibilities of the local planning authorities, between the interests of oil or gas extraction and the preservation of the environment.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that he is saying that we need exploration but that we need to frustrate it on the environmental account, and that this is a contradiction?
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, my noble friend seeks to argue, and I am answering questions of fact. I do not agree.
The Earl of Kinnoull: My Lords, could my noble friend say what sort of environmental considerations were considered suitable for the New Forest area?
The Earl of Mansfield: Not without notice, my Lords.

Invalid Care Allowance: Payment Policy
3.9 p.m.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, Lady Lane-Fox has asked me to ask the Question standing in her name as she is recovering from viral 'flu in hospital. So it is at her request that I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recognise the injustice of withholding payment of invalid care allowance from married women and, if so, what priority they are giving to remedying this situation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton): My Lords, in bearing my good wishes, with those of your Lordships, to my noble friend—as I hope she will do—
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my noble friend might say to her that there are a number of things which we should like to do in the field of disablement when resources become available. They will of course be in competition with each other for those resources, but extending the invalid care allowance to all married women is one of them.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Will he confirm that this is a benefit which specifically excludes married women, and that when this scheme was extended in 1981 by the present Government to include any person caring for another requiring full-time care, that the only people omitted were married women? Will he also confirm that this was based on the belief that married women were, on the whole, available full-time and were not normally in employment? Will he also confirm that he is aware that we have the highest employment rate of married women in western Europe —currently something above 67 per cent. of married women of employable age?
Lord Elton: My Lords, I am very much aware of the important role played by married women both at work and in the home. Currently there are some 3,400 men, 2,600 single women and about 1,100 women who are widowed, divorced or separated receiving this benefit—but to extend it further would cost anything up to £100 million.
Baroness Jeger: My Lords, I am sure that we on this side of the House would like to join in sending our good wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, with our hopes for a speedy recovery, because we do so enjoy having her with us. May I ask the Minister whether the Government have worked out how much they are saving?—because women who stay at home and who give up a career and a good job to look after a relative who is an invalid save the Government money. If a married women did not undertake that responsibility, how much would it cost from social security funds, or the National Health Service, to place a disabled, elderly relative into care? Surely these women are saving the Government money; and is it not really most unfair that their goodness should be taken advantage of in this mean way?
Lord Elton: My Lords, there is some illogicality in what the noble Baroness says. The people to whom she referred are being exploited by the Government only if they are caring for people without being paid. This makes it difficult to do the arithmetic that the noble Baroness asks me to do. I can only reply that it would cost us anything up to £100 million, and that is what we appear to be saving.
Baroness Jeger: My Lords, is the noble Lord saying it would cost more or less than £100 million if all these elderly disabled relatives were put into institutions?
Lord Elton: My Lords, I do not think anyone supposes that they would all be put into institutions—this is the point I am trying to make.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, if the benefit was extended

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in the manner suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, to whom we also would like to send our good wishes, would it not be taxable; and is the figure of £100 million which the noble Lord has mentioned based on some notional average tax rate which is applied to the persons concerned? If so, will he give the figure?
Lord Elton: No, my Lords, I cannot give a precise figure. I said that it would be up to £100 million. These calculations are always notional to some extent. If the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, wants to know the impact on an individual family, he should recall that it is not payable in addition, for instance, to the supplementary benefit. So if a husband was in receipt of an invalidity pension which included the dependency addition for his wife of £17, the family's income would be increased by only 75 pence. If the husband received retirement pension which included the dependency addition of £17·75, the income would be unchanged. If the husband was in receipt of supplementary benefit, the income would be unchanged if the amount of the supplementary benefit payable before the award of ICA was £17·75 or more. In other words, the impact on the individual family is often a good deal less than noble Lords might at first suspect.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, would my noble friend therefore agree that the impact would really be considerably less than the £100 million because, with all those people receiving supplementary benefit, that amount would be offset? Alternative estimates on this suggest that the cost may be less than half the amount my noble friend has quoted. Will my noble friend also confirm his figures to me, perhaps on another occasion?—because my own inquiries have revealed that a married man who gives up work to look after a relative who is an invalid would receive £17·75 plus £10·65 for his wife if she was dependent upon him, and £7·70 for each child. These figures are somewhat at variance with the figures which my noble friend has just quoted.
Lord Elton: No, my Lords, the figures are not at variance. I can confirm the dependency additions to which the noble Baroness has referred. I stated the condition of the family in the examples I gave. It remains the case that the Government would prefer to be able to extend this allowance, but that preference must be put in competition with other considerations, when resources become available to us to consider those priorities. In the meantime, benefits for the long-term sick and disabled in the financial year 1981–82 amounted to £2,781 million, which is 6 per cent. more in real terms than in 1978–79. I do not think this is a hard-faced Government; we are simply trying to do the best we can in the order in which resources come to hand.
Baroness Secar: My Lords, does it not strike the Minister as being slightly odd that if one is cohabiting with a man one will get this allowance, but if one is married to him, one will not? I have no particular prejudices in the matter, but this does seem to be the wrong way around.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I scarcely know how to answer that question. We are in a time of changing standards and we are looking at the question in the light of those changing standards. If I were to say that it was odd, I would appear to be old-fashioned. If I were to say that it was entirely normal, I would perhaps betray some of my own preconceptions.

EEC: UK Financial Contribution
3.16 p.m.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, following the efforts of the Prime Minister to obtain satisfaction on the financial contribution to the EEC and the efforts of responsible Ministers associated with agriculture and fishing rights to safeguard United Kingdom interests, which appear to have, so far, ended in failure, they will inform this House what time they consider should be allowed to elapse before the attitude of the EEC is accepted.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, in none of these areas has the Government's efforts been a failure. On our financial contribution, we succeeded on 30th May 1980 in securing reductions of over £1,500 million in our net contributions for 1980 and 1981, and we are now negotiating arrangements for 1982 and beyond. On both agriculture and fisheries, the Government have worked tirelessly to safeguard United Kingdom interests and are pressing for lasting reforms and improvements in both fields.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the statement he has just made is the first frank admission by a member of the Government that our expectations have not been fulfilled? Has he taken note of the erosion of our fishing industry, of the escalation and prosperity of French agriculture in comparison with our own and, over and above that, the frightful humiliation to which the Prime Minister has been subjected in seeking to obtain from the EEC and those associated with it a reasonable financial arrangement?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I do not accept for a moment that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been humiliated. On the contrary, we have some very remarkable achievements to our credit in this area and I believe further achievements are likely to he gained before long. As for the difficulties with the fishing policy and agricultural policy, the Government's views on those are well known and we are working hard to correct those problems.
Lord Gladwyn: My Lords, would the Government not agree that it is in any case quite wrong to refer to "the attitude of the EEC" as if the Community is something outside ourselves, to which we do not belong and is, as such, pursuing a policy hostile to

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this Government? Surely the question is rather whether a proposal, put up by the Commission, will be eventually approved by a consensus in the Council of Ministers?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the proposal which emerged at the meeting earlier this week is one that has some good aspects to it and some less good aspects. The whole matter is to be discussed again at a special meeting of Foreign Ministers on 3rd April. We very much hope that substantial progress will be made on that occasion.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the polls suggest that most people want to withdraw from the EEC? Is he further aware that the Labour Party is the only party that advocates this course, and is it not to be hoped that this message has reached Hillhead?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, at the last occasion upon which the British people were formally consulted as to their views on the Common Market, a substantial majority said that they favoured our continued membership. Those who now propose our withdrawal should ponder on the amount of exports, for example, which we make to the European Community—something like half our total.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to reply to the main point of my Question, namely, how long is it going to be before Her Majesty's Government obtain from the EEC complete satisfaction on the points raised in my Question?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I would be reluctant to put a fixed time limit on these matters, because we move forward by consensus and to impose some artificial time barrier is not, in my view, helpful to reaching that consensus.
Lord Hankey: My Lords, would the Government consider that it is really dangerous that a large part of the British public should judge the EEC and our membership of it by the price of butter, the size of the wine lake and other details? Are there not much broader considerations which ought to be brought to public notice from time to time which would in fact make it obvious that it would be a disaster for this country to leave the EEC? Should not the Government perhaps be conducting an information campaign on this subject?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I certainly agree it would be a disaster if we withdrew from the EEC. On the other hand, it is a mistake, I think, to belittle unduly some of the problems which exist; for example, the creation of surpluses within the agricultural policy, and the wine lagoon to which the noble Lord referred.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that when consideration is given to the Genscher Colombo proposals by Her Majesty's Government this will not import any new legal obligation that adversely affects our fishing interests?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, with respect, that goes fairly wide of the Question on the Order Paper; but certainly, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, the common fishery policy does have some difficulties for us and we are working to eliminate these problems.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that the CAP and the fisheries policy together take up almost 80 per cent. of the entire EEC budget and that that is the realistic way we have to look at it? All the other things are promises which have not materialised; we have not enjoyed the great benefits which it was said we would enjoy if we joined the EEC. Does not the noble Lord agree that successive Governments have done their best to get a square deal for Britain and that it has not been achieved, that we were cheated at the beginning, and that successive Governments, and this Government, despite their endeavours, are not getting a square deal, or even a reasonable response?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I would not choose to use the almost inflammatory words which the noble Lord has chosen to use. But certainly I cannot deny that the Community budget is very unbalanced by the size of the agricultural budget, although it is worth pointing out that the net percentage of the Community budget taken by the agricultural policy has declined since we took office.
Lord Ardwick: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the vigour with which the Government have pursued their case, quite rightly, has nevertheless convinced many people that the Community is unfair to us, and the Government are now the victim, and we are all the victim, of the Government's very justified propaganda on this?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the Government said right from the outset that there were aspects of the Community which we thought ought to be corrected. Indeed, our Community partners early on agreed that there was a problem in relation to our own budget contribution. That problem was largely solved for the earlier years, and we now hope that the problems we have been discussing with regard to agriculture and fisheries can likewise be resolved in the same spirit of constructive compromise.

THE VALE OF BELVOIR
Lord Denham: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Bellwin will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement to be made in another place on the Vale of Belvoir.
The Easter Recess
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may also be of convenience to your Lordships if I announce that, subject to the progress of business, this House will adjourn for the Easter Recess on Wednesday, 7th April, and return on Monday, 19th April.

Canada Bill
3.25 p.m.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. We are now nearing the end of the process of consideration of this Bill in your Lordships' House. As your Lordships know, the purpose of this legislation is to give effect to a request in relation to the Canadian constitution which was laid before Parliament in December last year on the basis of a Solemn Address to Her Majesty from both Houses of the Canadian Parliament. This procedure follows a constitutional precedent stretching back for well over a century during which the Parliament in Westminster has passed on no less than 14 occasions Acts amending the Canadian constitution.
This occasion is, however, a very special one. The Bill now before us will be the last of the line, because, as your Lordships are aware, it will transfer the responsibility for amendment of the Canadian constitution to where it rightly belongs, namely, to Canada itself. This is, therefore, if I may say so, an historic and happy moment.
I am aware that the Government have asked your Lordships to deal with this Bill at some speed, and I am grateful, therefore, for the forbearance which your Lordships have shown. The Government have taken the view, shared, I believe, by many of your Lordships, that since this proposal for legislation has been put to us at the request of and with the consent of the Canadian Parliament, and with the support of the great majority of the provinces, it is our responsibility to enact the legislation in the form in which it has been requested.
While the Government would not endorse some of the opinions which have been expressed, we believe that noble Lords have every right to state the views which they hold strongly. Many noble Lords have expressed the hope that the Canadian Government would be made aware of their concerns at various aspects of the Bill. As your Lordships may know, the Canadian Minister of Justice, who has been responsible in Canada for matters connected with the patriation of the constitution, has paid two visits to London during the consideration of the Bill in this House and in another place. I and other members of the Government had opportunities to discuss the concerns which noble Lords have raised with M. Chretienne during his visits, and at other times with representatives of the Canadian Government. I can assure your Lordships that the Canadian Government are very well aware of all the points made in the debates on the Canada Bill in the British Parliament.
This is a very important Bill because it marks the formal removal of an anomalous qualification to the exercise by Canada of its independence, an independence which de facto stretches back for many decades. The Bill is important, too, because with its passage an uncertainty and an area of possible tension are removed from our relations with a major Western and Commonwealth friend. It is important, finally, because, with the removal of this anachronism, both countries will be free to concentrate on developing the host of shared interests. I believe that there is a profound friendship between our two countries which can only benefit from the termination of our somewhat uncomfortable
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constitutional responsibility. Therefore, I invite your Lordships to give this Bill a Third Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Trefgarne.)
Lord Stewart of Fulham: My Lords, I think we have all been glad to hear the speech the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has just made. This is a Bill of great importance, of great interest, both to us now and to historians. We have not always agreed as to how we should approach it, but all of us have had the oppotunity to treat it in the way which seems consonant with our duty. I appreciate the way in which the noble Lord has handled that aspect of the matter today.
May I say also that we are particularly pleased to hear of the conversations he has had with the Canadian Minister of Justice. I do not think there is any more to say than that in my judgment we should now send the Bill across the Atlantic with good wishes to the whole realm of Canada, and good wishes, to use a phrase from the Bill, for the preservation and enhancement of the multi-cultural heritage of Canadians.
Lord Gladwyn: My Lords, we, too, would like to associate ourselves with what the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham, has just said. In our view, there is nothing more which can be said on this Bill which has not already been said. No amendment is admissible, as the Government throughout have said, and we entirely agree with that. We therefore think that the decision should now be taken. It is a great occasion and we certainly hope that the decision will be arrived at without further delay.
3.30 p.m.
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate a great country on reaching a position not only where it can cast itself adrift in true independence, but also for drafting a charter of rights and freedoms with so many excellent clauses, the nature of which is lacking in many countries. I congratulate Mr. Trudeau for making that start. However, if every cloud has a silver lining, in this case the silver lining has a cloud. This is an historic moment, and, until this Bill receives its Third Reading this afternoon, jurisdiction over the Canadian constitution remains here in this House.
At the Committee stage of this Bill on Tuesday, I witnessed noble Lords being frozen out of any kind of relationship with the matter at hand. I myself had prepared points to speak to earnestly in Committee, only to find that the feeling of the House excluded debate and no dialogue was possible with Her Majesty's Government. That has left me with no alternative but to speak today.
Many wide-ranging points were made at the Second Reading debate last week and I associate myself with what was said by many noble Lords and Baronesses, as will become apparent. However, I am most disturbed that many in this House have apparently closed their minds to the issue of aboriginal rights. I am glad that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, mentioned, on Second Reading, our legislative responsibility. On 14th February this year Professor

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James Fawcett, three times President of the European Commission on Human Rights, stated:
"The deep concern of the Canadian Indians is then that the Bill, and particularly its Charter of Rights and Freedoms, does not adequately protect their rights or secure their future status…The United Kingdom Parliament cannot treat the enactment of the Bill as only a procedural or constitutional formality".
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, also made an eloquent plea on Second Reading that Canada should take a look at the lack of provision at subsequent conferences for the participation of the aboriginal peoples. He also expressed the hope that Canada will look as well at the lack of any safeguard for the native peoples against amendment of the constitution without their consent. I trust that the Canadian Government will listen to the words of this most eminent jurist and take the opportunity, after patriation, of using the amending formula to ensure that Indian consent and effective participation are guaranteed in matters which affect them.
It is clear that all sides of the House agree that repatriation of the Canadian constitution is essential, but it is incumbent on us to repatriate without loose ends. I am most disturbed that Her Majesty's Government—having been reassured that nothing was going to delay the passage of the Bill, by virtue of the fact that no amendments were tabled at the Committee stage—by their attitude prevented debate on these very important clauses. Nearly 13 hours of debate in another place at Committee stage but only 50 minutes of freeze-out in this House is not going to enhance the picture of magnanimity which your Lordships' House would wish to present to the world.
Why does this House not want a proper airing of the facts which would have been entirely appropriate at the Committee stage? The atmosphere in here was like dry ice. Is it because of courtesy and form to Canada? Much has been said of conventions. They are governed by whether there is a good reason for applying them. In this case there are strong grounds for arguing that there is no good reason for applying the conventions as regards the Indian peoples. But even if the conventions are being applied, there is no reason at all for not discussing the Bill. But more than that, we are talking of a human situation: not the dry courtesies and form of this House. A true analysis of the facts will show that little courtesy and form has been shown to the original inhabitants of Canada—the indigenous peoples.
The terms "courtesy" and "form" are thus suddenly devalued. I could not believe that eminent noble Lords could brand other noble Baronesses and noble Lords who were trying to ask pertinent questions, as being "emotional". And I could not believe that eminent noble Lords could state that it would be better for the Indians if nothing further were said. Since when has ignoring human rights been the way to deal with them? Since when have human rights issues been the butt of merriment and laughter as we suddenly experienced from certain quarters in this House on Tuesday? Was it so amusing for young Indian volunteers to come to Europe to fight and die with our own troops, including noble Lords, for their belief in their allegiance to the Crown with whom they made solemn treaties?
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Not one, not two, not tens, but hundreds of Canadian native peoples have left their homes and families, some have even brought their families, to come to England not for a day, not for a week, not for a month, but for several months to present us personally with their case. This, my Lords, is courtesy. This, my Lords, is the way of the Indian people. And what do we give them? Fifty minutes of our time in the Committee stage, sitting in a vacuum with no response from the Government, where—and it is the only, and last, chance we shall get to do so—we could have been discussing clauses in the proposed Canadian constitution that are frightening the native peoples of that land.
Why should these native peoples come to this country? For one reason only: they feel that their trust is directly personal with our Sovereign. Head to personal head. They believed when the Royal Proclamation was signed in 1763, for,
"as long as the sun shines, the grass grows, and the waters flow",
that it was binding. And whether those obligations lie with the Crown here or in Canada, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, has stated:
"No Parliament should do anything to lessen the worth of these guarantees".
Lord Dement: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but can he say from what document he is reading?
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, I suppose that I should not use the word that I would like to use, but this happens to be my own prepared speech.
It must be remembered that the Indian tradition is an oral one. We are constrained by paper. But as the Chief of the Fort Frances Indians once put it:
"You must remember that our hearts and our brains are like paper; we never forget".
I believe that this is where all the trouble started, and is the root of what has led to the fear felt today by the native peoples. What do I mean by that? It was with that signing that the might and ways of the steam-rolling invader was unleashed on the goodwill and lands rich with resources, of the aboriginal people.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Young): My Lords, the noble Earl is making a very long speech and I think that he would agree that it is a speech that was really suitable to Second Reading rather than a speech which is appropriate to Third Reading, which is the stage of the Bill that we have now reached. I think it is unfortunate that the noble Earl was not in his place to speak at Second Reading and I hope he will accept that there was agreement in the House as to the procedure to be adopted at the Committee stage. I think that it would be unfortunate now to raise criticisms of the arrangements that were made at that stage. I think that it would be the wish of the House if the noble Earl could confine his remarks to those appropriate to a Third Reading.
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, although I understand what the noble Baroness is saying, that as regards Third Readings of non-controversial Bills in the House of Lords the proceedings are usually brief, I

1069
believe that so far as the Canadian Indians are concerned this is a very controversial Bill. If you Lordships will bear with me, I do not think that your Lordships will find that what I have to say is very long.
Several noble Lords: Order!
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, it was with that signing that the might and ways of the invader was unleashed on the goodwill and lands rich with resources of the aboriginal people. Why, when that signing was done in the name of our Crown in order to protect just those things? While the Indians could immediately and directly consult with their people on the spot, our negotiators came with a prepared position, had to write up reports later, and send them overseas for confirmation. All this is well documented.
Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal: My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt the noble Earl once again. spoke as a member of the aboriginal peoples during the Second Reading debate on this Bill. These arguments were exhaustively covered at that time. What is the noble Earl trying to achieve by the speech that he is now making to the House, which, in the context, seems completely out of order?
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, I am trying to make the point which f started my Third Reading speech describing.
From that day, the native peoples have been confined to their reservations by a succession of Indian Acts. This is crucial, and this is why it is crucial. Mr. Chretien, the Canadian Minister of Justice, said in the constitution debate in November last year:
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance".
Mr. Trudeau, in a speech on his White Paper, Statement of the Government on Indian Policy 1969, stated:
"I don't think we want to force the pace on them any more than we can force it on the rest of the Canadians".
My point here is that vigilance is only of any value with the facts. Apart from 13 years in the 19th century—from 1885 to 1898—the Indians had no vote until 1960. Therefore, there was no consultation with them. They had no opportunity to see certain documents. Also, before that time it was civil disobedience for them to leave the reservations.
Since 1960 the native peoples have had to take on the entrenched ways and laws of the white man. It is the results of their research that they have brought to this country. They did not bring platitudes; they brought details, and it is some more of those details which they have the right to have placed before this House, because it is in this detail that we find the source of their fears.
Noble Lords: Order, order!
Baroness Young: My Lords, I think it would be only right that I should draw the attention of the noble Earl to the Companion to the Standing Orders on the reading of speeches. Perhaps I may draw his attention to page 88, which says:
"The reading of speeches is alien to the custom of the House and is an obstacle to good debate. It is recognised, however, that
1070
on some occasions, e.g., Ministerial statements, it is necessary to read from a prepared text.
"Some speakers may wish to have 'extended notes' from which to speak, but it is not in the interests of good debate that speakers should stick too closely to a prepared text".
As I have already indicated to the noble Earl, his speech is really more appropriate to a Second Reading than to a Third Reading debate, and, as I think it is the view of the House that the points which he is now raising are points which have already been debated at considerable length at Second Reading and referred to on Committee, perhaps he could consider bringing his remarks to a conclusion on a length of speech more appropriate to Third Reading.
Several noble Lords: Hear, hear!
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, on many occasions I have seen people reading from their notes, and I shall continue to do so.
Lord Mowbray and Stourton: My Lords, is not this very unusual when my noble friend the Leader of the House has twice appealed to the noble Earl? All the time I have sat in this House I have never noticed—and I want to use the polite word in parliamentary language—so many noble Lords not wanting to hear what the noble Lord is saying because it has already been said. We are dealing with a very sensitive question. Canada is a great country; it has been our cousin and our friend over many centuries.
The noble Lords, Lord Stewart of Fulham and Lord Gladwyn, have been exemplarily brief today. The noble Earl has been appealed to by many parts of the House. Is he really in order by going against what I suspect to be the will of the whole House?
The Earl of Gosford: My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what noble Lords opposite have said, and I quite understand their position. We are shortly to have a long debate on pornography, and there are many speakers down on the list. But, as I said at the beginning of this speech, many Indians have come to this country to petition us.
Noble Lords: Order, order!
Baroness Wootton of Abinger: My Lords, I should like to move that the noble Earl be no longer heard.
On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?
Moved, That the noble Lord be no longer heard.—(Baroness Wootton of Abinger.)
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 147; Not-Contents, 15.

DIVISION 1

CONTENTS

Adeane, L.

Banks, L.

Ailesbury, M.

Belhaven and Stenton, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Bessborough, E.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Braye, L.

Alport, L.

Buckmaster, V.

Ampthill, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Amulree, L.

Campbell of Alloway, L.

Auckland, L.

Cathcart, E.

Aylestone, L.

Clancarty, E.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Bancroft, L.

Cockfield, L.

1071

Coleraine, L.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Constantine of Stanmore, L.

Newall, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Northchurch, B.

Cowley, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Craigton, L.

O'Brien of Lothbury, L.

Crathorne, L.

Onslow, E.

Daventry, V.

Orkney, E.

Davidson, V.

Oxfuird, V.

De La Warr, E.

Perry of Walton, L.

Derwent, L.

Perth, E.

Dilhorne, V.

Piatt of Writtle, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Polwarth, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Porritt, L.

Effingham, E.

Portland, D.

Eldon, E.

Rathcreedan, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Reigate, L.

Ely, M.

Renton, L.

Falkland, V.

Robbins, L.

Fortescue, E.

Roberthall, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Rochester, L.

Garner, L.

Romney, E.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Rugby, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Glasgow, E.

St. Davids, V.

Glenarthur, L.

St. Just, L.

Gormanston, V.

Saint Oswald, L.

Grey of Naunton, L.

Saltoun, Ly.

Gridley, L.

Sandford, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Savile, L.

Hailsham of Saint

Seear, B.

Marylebone, L.

Selborne, E.

Halsbury, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Harding of Petherton, L.

Sharpies, B.

Harvington, L.

Shaughnessy, L.

Henley, L.

Shrewsbury, E.

Home of the Hirsel. L.

Sligo, M.

Hood, V.

Slim, V.

Hunt of Fawley, L.

Somers, L.

Hunter of Newington, L.

Spens, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Stamp, L.

Inglewood, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

James of Rusholme, L.

Stedman, B.

Kinloss, Ly.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Kintore, E.

Strathspey, L.

Kitchener, E.

Sudeley, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Swansea, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Swinfen, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Tanlaw, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Taylor, L.

Loudoun, C.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

McFadzean, L.

Terrington, L.

MacLeod of Fuinary, L.

Thomas of Swynnerton, L.

Mais, L.

Tranmire, L.

Mancroft, L.

Trumpington, B.

Marley, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Marshall of Leeds, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Vivian, L.

Maybray-King, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Mersey, V.

Westbury, L.

Milverton, L.

Wigoder, L.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Windlesham, L.

Mottistone, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

[Teller.]

[Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Jacobson, L.

Beloff, L.

Kinnoull, E.

Beswick, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.[Teller.]

Ewart-Biggs, B.

Morris, L.

Fletcher, L.

Paget of Northampton, L.

Gosford, E.[Teller.]

Shinwell, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Wynne-jones,L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Resolved in affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.
3.57 p.m.
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, the Question is, That the Bill be now read a third time?
Baroness Young: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Morris, wishes to speak.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I shall not keep you long. I can only hope and pray that I am received with a little bit more courtesy than was the very courageous noble Earl, Lord Gosford. The major lesson of English history is that today, as ever, the estates of the realm—the Church, Parliament assembled, the judiciary and the free press—are as necessary, both jointly and severally, as they ever were in order to maintain the liberty of the subject in the face of a determined executive.
It was with this in mind that, when I was in Canada, I presumed to suggest to leaders of the Indian people that the major lesson that they should have learned vs as, "do not put your trust in princes". By that I meant, of course, in the professional politician alone. In addition, I suggested that they were right to put their faith in the judiciary of England and the Parliament of the United Kingdom, for, as indeed we have seen today, they do not lack that rarest of political virtues, courage. No one who has bothered to read the judgment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, the Master of the Rolls, in the Alberta Indian case, or the proceedings in another place, or indeed the proceedings in the Canadian House of Commons, could be in any doubt whatsoever that courage was in evidence, as indeed it was in your Lordships' House upon this Bill in the Second Reading.
It was interesting to note that a most distinguished former Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham, and, if I may respectfully say so, a most gentle and brilliant former Lord Chancellor of England—namely, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones—together with, if I may say so, one of the most distinguished of our judges, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, among others, voiced a major concern. In no way impugning the Government and peoples of Canada, these most distinguished Members of your Lordships' House suggested that this Bill provided the statutory means whereby a determined authority could in the future, if they were so minded, erode the property rights of the indigenous minority in Canada. I must admit to feelings of sadness that this House, of all Houses of Parliament, did not allow the development of those vitally important arguments in Committee. In addition, I must admit to feelings of considerable shame that, in the face of rising hostility, I had neither the wit nor the courage—
Baroness Young: My Lords, I feel that I must interrupt my noble friend Lord Morris to say that, although we are on Third Reading and he is perfectly entitled to make a speech, it would be quite wrong to leave the impression that something was improperly or incorrectly done at the Committee stage. There was agreement in Committee, on the advice we received, that amendments would be inappropriate; and there was only one issue before the House, and I would draw

1073
my noble friend's attention to it. It was that the Bill, as indicated by its Long Title,
"is to give effect to a request by the Senate and the House of Commons of Canada."
The Bill, therefore, is concerned solely with giving effect to that request, and the way in which the matter was managed in Committee was quite appropriate.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I am most grateful for my noble friend's advice. I in no way meant to express any feeling that there was any impropriety. My only expression was one of sadness that the Government of the day did not encourage a meaningful debate on the schedule at the Committee stage. That was the impression I was very strongly given, despite the fact that everybody agreed not to table amendments, and I did not mean in any way to suggest there had been impropriety of any sort.
Be that as it may, I believe, as so often happens, that good comes out of evil. Not for many years have the people and Parliament of the United Kingdom taken such a close and friendly look at their mightily respected and loved fellow Commonwealth colleague, Canada. I know of many who not only now know where Saskatchewan is; they can even spell it. Many new friendships have been made and are flourishing.
The Earl of Onslow: I hope the noble Lord, Lord Morris, will give way, my Lords, so I may say that we are going through exactly the same thing with him as we went through rather painfully with the noble Earl, Lord Gosford. It is totally wrong that we should have shut up Lord Gosford and not shut up Lord Morris. It would be very wise if Lord Morris restrained his speech, which will have no effect on anybody or anything, and let us get on with the rest of our business.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Earl has at last spoken from his feet rather than from his bottom.
Noble Lords: Order!
Lord Morris: I said at the beginning of my speech that I would not be long, my Lords, and I am about to wind up. I am confident that those few who have taken a deep and sincere interest in the subject will not now go away and forget the Canada they love but will maintain a constant interest in developments in Canada.
On Question, Bill read a third time, and passed.

Travel Concessions (London) Bill
4.4 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Bellivin.)
Lord Underhill: My Lords, in taking the House to a more placid atmosphere, I wish to say only a few words about the Bill, and indeed I do not think your
1074
Lordships would wish me to detain you long on it. We are delighted that the measure should be going through the House, but I must draw attention to the fact that the Bill covers only the position of concessionary fares to people in London as a result of the GLC and London Transport finding themselves having to produce a new fares tariff. I wish to make it absolutely clear that senior citizens who use London tube trains outside the GLC area will not have the free concessionary fares which apply to all senior citizens in London. The maximum that some will pay will increase from 80p, the return fare up to 21st March, to £1.20. It means that couples who are pensioners living, say, in estates built by the GLC outside the GLC area, will pay £2.40 to travel to see their relatives in inner London, as against 40p now. That point needs to he made absolutely clear because it will be important to many pensioners outside the GLC area.
On Question, Bill read a third time, and passed.

The Vale of Belvoir
4.6 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. The Statement reads as follows:
"In August 1978, the board submitted a planning application to Melton Borough Council for permission to work that part of the coalfield which lies under Leicestershire to construct three mines, at Hose, Saltby and Asfordby, and to tip spoil adjacent to those three sites. At the same time, applications were made to Rushcliffe Borough Council and South Kesteven District Council for permission to work those parts of the coalfield which lie under Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire respectively. Those applications were called in by my predecessor, the right honourable Member for Stepney and Poplar, in Januray 1979.
"A public local inquiry was conducted on my behalf by Mr. Michael Mann, Q.C., assisted by two assessors. I should like to record my gratitude to Mr. Mann and his two colleagues for the way they conducted the inquiry and for the report, a copy of which I have placed in the Library, together with a copy of my decision letter, which is being issued today.
"The inspector recommended that planning permission should be granted for the development of the coalfield and the construction of all three mines, but that permission should be refused for the proposed spoil tips at Hose and Saltby.
"I have carefully considered all of the issues in the inspector's report. I agree with the inspector that the board's proposals for tipping at Hose and Saltby are unacceptable as they stand, but in addition I am concerned about tipping at Asfordby because of its impact on agriculture. I have concluded that before local tipping at any of the three sites could be contemplated, the possibility of other methods of spoil disposal should he further examined.

1075
I have also concluded that the development of a mine complex at the proposed Hose site is environmentally unacceptable. Mine buildings here on the scale proposed would dominate a wide area and would be alien to the Vale.
"The inspector concluded that it was somewhat more likely than not that there will be a need to supplement indigenous deep-mine capacity at about the time the Belvoir coalfield could become fully operational, but he felt unable to refine his opinion by suggesting the year in which the need would arise or the exact extent of that need. I accept that the coal will be needed in the future, but I have had to weigh the degree of need demonstrated with the adverse environmental effects to which I have already referred.
"I have also considered whether the development of this coalfield can be justified on the grounds of the employment opportunities it would create for mineworkers displaced by colliery closures in the North-West Leicestershire and South Nottinghamshire areas. I have concluded that the very important benefits which would accrue from the provision of such employment should be considered in the light of any fresh applications the board may wish to make and in a timescale compatible with the employment requirements.
"have concluded that the need and employment arguments are not incompatible with the need to seek an alternative approach to the mining of this coalfield, which gives more weight to the environmental objections, and I have therefore refused planning permission for the development of the Vale of Belvoir coalfield as set out in the present planning applications. This decision should not be seen as in any way going against Government policy that the coal industry has an essential and increasing part to play in meeting this country's future needs for energy, provided that it is competitive and based on efficient high productivity capacity. I accept that the board might wish to submit new planning applications setting out revised proposals to exploit this massive national resource.
"However. before doing so, I consider that the board should re-examine how the coalfield can be worked to minimise environmental disturbance and how the colliery waste can be disposed of other than by local surface tipping. I recognise that this second point has ramifications going beyond the board's interests, and I shall therefore be writing shortly to those principally concerned with a view to inviting discussions on how the spoil disposal problem can best be overcome. It is very important that these discussions should he pursued with vigour and brought to a conclusion as soon as possible. It is a matter for the board as to when new planning applications are submitted, and, provided the major environmental objections can be overcome, I would not anticipate that the procedures for handling these would need to be unduly prolonged.
"There is one other point to which I should like to refer. The board submitted a single application covering all of the underground coal extraction in Leicestershire, together with the three mine complexes and the three tips, and they have thus opted
1076
to stand or fall on a strategy of developing the coalfield as one project. I take the view that, in these circumstances, the granting of a permission for only part of the development would be in effect granting a permission for development which is significantly different in kind from the proposal which was the subject of this application. Had it not been for this, and had there been acceptable proposals for spoil disposal, I would have been minded to grant planning permission for mines at Asfordby and Saltby."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
4.12 p.m.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, I am sure that we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, for repeating this important Statement. It is a very important Statement, one which has been eagerly awaited for a long time, and which has I think been somewhat delayed. I must say that from the point of view of the energy needs of this country, it is a very disappointing Statement. The National Coal Board's first application was put in four years ago. The inspector's report was submitted a year ago, and it has taken a good while for the Department of the Environment—which I understand made the decision—to make up its mind.
The noble Lord said that it is of course a matter for the board as to when new planning applications are submitted, but he did not anticipate that the procedures for handling these would need to be unduly prolonged. Perhaps the noble Lord, who has a great deal of experience of planning inquiries, will say why the Government have come to the conclusion that a second application would take not so long as the first.
I should also like to ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that there was complete accord over this application between the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers, with the support, I have always understood—and I used to work in that department—of the Department of Energy and of the European Energy Commission. Plan for Coal depends on introducing new capacity at regular intervals. Is the noble Lord aware that this is needed to replace existing capacity and to produce more in 10 years' time? It is also needed to replace old pits with modern, more efficient and safer pits.
It takes 10 years for a major scheme of this kind to get into production. The coal is needed to replace output from the Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire fields. There are six collieries there which will become exhausted over the next decade. I believe that 8,000 jobs are at risk. Will the noble Lord tell us what alternative employment the Government anticipate will be provided for the skilled and experienced miners who will be thrown out of work if there is to be no further capacity provided in Belvoir?
With regard to the environment—and I note what the noble Lord said—the National Coal Board has a very good record. It has given assurances that it would do all that it could to minimise adverse effects on the environment. Did the noble Lord's right honourable friend the Secretary of State take this into account? Was he aware of the record of the National Coal Board in this respect?
It is a difficult decision, and I think that there is a lot to be said on environmental grounds. It is a beautiful part of England. On the other hand, we

1077
have to balance that fact with our energy needs. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that Sir Derek Ezra, in a speech last summer, said:
"If we were to go forward as a country always putting the environment first in every respect, we might end up with a pleasant environment but with no industry and no employment"?
4.16 p.m.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, we, too, on these Benches are grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement to us. Certainly the Statement will be accepted with some relief in some quarters, and not least by the noble Duke, the Duke of Rutland, who I understand had threatened to prostrate himself in front of a steamroller if in fact permission were granted. But I do not see why the Government should prostrate themselves in front of the noble Duke, despite his threat.
I must say that certain interests will greet the Statement with great enthusiasm. There would be serious interruption to fox hunting interests, possibly ending in a closure of some of the hunts if the colliery were to go ahead. But in relation to these environmental and other interests the Statement went on to say that the Government are prepared to ignore on grounds of employment the putting forward of the mine workings in Belvoir and postpone the project. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has already mentioned that the lead times in opening up a new mine of this consequence are very great. Will the Minister give some estimation of how long the second application will take, and say whether it will in any way interfere with the project and Plan for Coal, of which the Vale of Belvoir is an essential part?
There is one other point on which perhaps the noble Lord will give some clarification. It relates to a contradiction in terms in the Statement, which said that the decision was not seen in any way as going against Government policy. Is it Government policy to keep open deep and dangerous pits which are uneconomic and uncompetitive, or is it Government policy to try to produce a modern and effective coal industry, which must rely on large-seam and effective pits which have a potential, such as the Vale of Belvoir? This is a very important policy point which is not made clear in the Statement. During the Second Reading of the Coal Industry Bill we had a quite clear statement by the Government that they want to subsidise deep and dangerous pits. Is that their policy, or is it not?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords for their observations. I should like to pick up some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. He said that the decision was disappointing for energy, and I can understand that. However, if one looks carefully at the implications for jobs—which come out as the thrust of the noble Lord's concern: and the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, raised the point, which I think must be the important counterpoint I should like to say that my right honourable friend fully accepts the importance of this aspect of the whole matter. We realise that the development of the Vale of Belvoir coalfield would ameliorate the effect of pit closures in Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire, and we believe that it is possible for the environmental objections to be overcome and for fresh applications to be
1078
made within a timescale that is compatible with the employment requirements. We believe that the decision and the discussions which we intend to initiate will make it possible for the National Coal Board to submit new planning applications within—and I stress this, because I think that it is the point—a timescale compatible with the employment requirements. We are well aware of the issues of time.
It is up to the Coal Board to press forward, if it wishes to do so—and that is the way in which I would answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, as to how long it will take. The Coal Board must make its move. We believe that if it does so, and with the discussions to which my right honourable friend referred in the Statement, it should certainly be possible to arrive at a point within this timescale that takes into account the employment issue.
As to the other points that the noble Lord raised, yes, I am sure that we are aware of the Coal Board's good record in general environmental works. That is encouraging; and it is also a factor in encouraging us in what I have been saying so far. I entirely accept the very sensitive matter that this concerns, and I am also aware of the long time that it has taken to come to a conclusion. Hopefully, it should be possible, as I say, to get to the further point if that is what everyone wishes to do.
4.21 p.m.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, on behalf of my colleagues on these Benches I should like to say that I feel the Statement made by the Minister will be greeted with some disappointment. On Monday of this week the House passed a Bill increasing the borrowing limits of the Coal Board. This was designed to enable the Coal Board to invest in new pits. We were much encouraged by that gesture; but the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers, who have discussed this particular case at some length, will be vastly disappointed by the Statement which has just been made.
I associate myself completely with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. If you look at the production figures of a modern pit such as the Coal Board wish now to close in order to invest in a new pit, such as they wish to do in the Vale of Belvoir, you will see that the production costs in the new pits are something like £18 per tonne, whereas last year production costs were about £40 per tonne in older pits. By the same token, production per man-shift is 2·3 tonnes in the average, whereas in new pits, in which there is new investment, it is something like 10 tonnes per man-shift. All this indicates the necessity for immediate investment in modern equipment and modern mines.
In so far as the present Statement simply further delays this process, it must be disappointing. As the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has said, the original applications were made in August 1978; the inspector reported in May 1980; and we are now in March 1982, when we get a Statement inviting the Coal Board to make a further and revised submission. This does not give confidence nor encouragement to the Coal Board to make a further and revised submission. This does not give confidence nor encouragement to the Coal Board in the way we think it should.

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My Lords, may I say just one more word, again on the timescale? Having had such delays, can we have some assurance from the Minister that he has some timetable in mind in order to secure approval for the development which might be possible? Secondly, may I draw to his attention the fact that on the initial planning applications the Coal Board has already spent over £2 million on consultants' fees, which money could have been better used, I suspect, in other areas of Coal Board activity, and that we are now invited once more to submit revised planning applications? Could I have some assurance from him that the procedures will be simplified and that the Coal Board will not be asked to engage in exercises of this kind when they have other important work to do?
Finally, the question raised by Lord Strabolgi is an important one. The development of this kind of coal mine takes at least 10 years. The run-down of employment in the neighbouring coalfields amounts to 3,000 men in the next 10 years. Can I have some assurance that the timescale for absorbing these men will be consistent with the approval of the planning application?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I thought I had made it clear—I tried to spell it out very carefully in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi—that the last point that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, makes is of as much concern to the Government as it is to those who have raised it. I said that we felt it was entirely possible for there to be the kind of timescale which would enable us to have a situation where there will be no need at all to be looking for the alternative types of employment that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, asked about; because in our view, if it all goes forward as it could, then there is no reason why they should not be mining in these same fields.
As to the other point that the noble Lord makes, he said that there will be some disappointment. Perhaps there will he at first, but I hope not when there is careful study of the Statement and, I hope, an opportunity to take note of certainly what I have said today and what, I am sure, my right honourable friend will be saying in another place; because we are at some pains to stress this point of employment, and that is why we have said so much about it already. We understand the points about the necessity for investment. I think the noble Lord said that he welcomed what the Government had said about that already, so we are not at cross-purposes there. I say again that I understand the first disappointment so far as that aspect goes, but it is a difficult problem. Again, as so often, one has to take a balanced view, and I think that in this way we can get a satisfactory solution to the interests of ail concerned.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, can one get up from this place and really congratulate my noble friend on a quite excellent decision? The people who live in that particular area were not keen for the massive three-colliery development which was proposed. At the moment, there is a 3 million—
Several noble Lords: Question!
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a 3 million barrels a day excess of oil production over use; that the Coal Board is producing very large quantities of coal which remain at the pithead unsold at the moment; and that there is no immediate, screaming hurry? Provided a tidy, clean and environmentally unobtrusive, perhaps one-pit development can take place, I am sure that will be much more satisfactory to everybody. I should like to congratulate my right honourable friend on a sensitive and intelligent decision.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, just to acknowledge what my noble friend has said, he simply confirms the point I was trying to make as to the difficulty in coming to a balanced decision in a matter of this kind.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, may I express my appreciation of the decision of the Secretary of State. He has at least one admirer on these Benches for his sensitive and sympathetic approach to a most difficult problem. As one who has spent a good deal of his life in that area, who loves it so much and who is sensitive to the feelings of people in the district, I think that the Minister has been well justified in taking ample time in careful study of all the implications of this enormous development. I think the Minister ought to register, if he will, my own humble thanks for his approach to this matter. Realising the disappointment it will cause in some quarters—as the noble Lord the Minister said a moment ago, there is difficulty in reaching a balanced judgment—there is, nevertheless, another side to this matter before irrevocable harm is done to the diminishing beauty of Britain.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, but I hope he will not mind if, in thanking him, I stress again my understanding of the concern expressed on the other aspects of the matter about which we are equally as sensitive as we are about the one which he very helpfully raises.
Lord Wynne-Jones: My Lords, may I put this matter to the Minister?
Lord Bellwin: In the form of a question.
Lord Wynne-Jones: Of course, my Lords; I would not dream of putting it in any other form. Is the Minister aware that the whole problem of the coal industry is one of continuing development? Is he aware of the fact that if this is delayed it is going to be impossible for the coal industry to remain viable? If I may continue to ask questions, is he cognisant of the fact that, today, the coal industry is faced with a large number of pits which are not strictly viable, and that it is therefore urgent to develop new pits?
This is not a matter than can be put off. This one has already been put off for a number of years. If it is put off further, does the Minister think there is any hope of the coal industry reaching the target which a sub-committee of this House of which I was chairman recommended—that is, that there should be a minimum production of 150 million tonnes of coal by the end of the century, which is in line with the tripartite plan, and that it would be preferable to go up to 200 million

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tonnes? Does the Minister think that it is possible—I am still asking a question—for such a target to be reached if we have a further delay? Is the Minister also aware of the fact that the counties of Northumberland and Durham when the pits were privately developed were devastated and that it took the National Coal Board to repair the wreckage created by private ownership of the coal mines of this country?
Lord Bellwin: The last point that the noble Lord made does not take us very much further. I am aware of the importance of what he has said about the need for continuity. I hope that I have gone to some pains to try to emphasise this afternoon the importance that we attach to this time factor which we recognise clearly; and it is on all the advice that I am given that I say that if the Coal Board wish to move, with everyone moving forward as we hope—I cannot prejudge any decision that would be taken—there is an opportunity for us to get to where I think noble Lords (who are, quite properly so, anxious on the employment matter for the mineworkers) want to be if we can move in that direction.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? In addition to the £2 million abortive expenditure on the first submission, is it a fact that an alternative submission must inevitably mean a higher investment? And if that is so—and, of course, the emphasis is on environment and not on economic production—may we have an assurance from the noble Lord that he and his colleagues will not use the opportunity to criticise another public corporation for higher expenditure?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am not aware to what extent, if any, there would be higher expenditure. The noble Lord is more knowledgeable than I on this subject and I am sure that what he says will be considered. I think it is proper to say that in terms of the time to be taken, much of the ground has been covered already. There has been so much discussion and the report is very detailed; and that in itself would surely be a much briefer need when a further application is made, if it is made. And that should be encouraging, too.

Social Security and Housing Benefits Bill
Brought from the Commons, read a first time, and to be printed.

Salmon Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
4.33 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 7 [Orders.]:
Lord Lyell Lord Lyell moved the amendment standing in the name of the Earl of Mansfield:
Page 3, line 38, leave out ("by") and insert ("in pursuance of").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, I beg to move the amendment which stands in his name. Before coming to the main point of the amendment, perhaps I might take the opportunity of adding our congratulations to those which the noble Lord, Lord Ross, and the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, extended at an earlier stage to my noble friend Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal. The speedy and effective way in which he has replied to all the advice offered to him and has led this House through the Committee stage is a lesson to all of us and especially in respect to Scottish legislation.
In tabling this amendment, the Government have no wish to steal the thunder of my noble friend. The amendment, like a number of those accepted by your Lordships at an earlier stage, is a technical one. Your Lordships will not be surprised to hear that it owes a great deal to the eagle eye of the parliamentary draftsman and therefore it seems appropriate that the Government should take on the burden of speaking to this further drafting change which I fear has come up rather late in the life of the Bill.
As at present drafted, Clause 7 of the Bill is somewhat compressed. Clause 7 suggests that if there were to be a successful prayer in either House against any order made under the Bill, that prayer would, of itself, revoke the order. This would be something of an innovation. The established pattern for dealing with statutory instruments is contained in Section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, and the proposed new wording is in conformity with the language of the 1946 Act. It does not change the procedure which the proposers intended of making any order made under the Bill subject to the negative resolution procedure. The effect of the drafting change is that it would be incumbent upon the Government to withdraw any order which had been the subject of a successful prayer. That is a technical explanation of a minor drafting amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Bishopston: My Lords, will the noble Lord clarify the position a little further? An affirmative order has to be affirmed; a negative order has to be prayed against anyway in order to be debated and possibly varied. Would the noble Lord say a word or two about that aspect with regard to the prayer for annulment?
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I think that the question asked by the noble Lord about the affirmative resolution is not affected by, or in any way contravened by, the amendment that we are seeking to make. So far as the negative resolution procedure is concerned, the only reason for the amendment is to tidy up what the draftsman thought was a small defect in the normal negative resolution procedure in either House. As I hope I set out to explain, the Government thought is that Clause 7, as it stands, could be taken to show that any successful prayer would annul the order as of the time of making the order; whereas I understand the amendment would leave the actual withdrawal of the order to the Secretary of State. I have been handed a note to say that the noble Lord. Lord Bishopston, is quite correct. I hope that he will be able to accept that and if I have misled him or the House, then I would apologise.
Lord Bishopston: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation.
Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal: My Lords, who am I to argue with the erudition of the Government's parliamentary draftsman? I am satisfied that the proposed amendment does not alter the purpose of the Bill and I accept the amendment gratefully.
On Question, amendment agreed to.

Dissemination of Pornography Bill [H.L.]
4.40 p.m.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill appears under my name, but I should like to pay tribute to my noble colleagues who have helped in the construction and drafting of it following our debate 15 months ago on the Williams Report, which was critical in this House. We felt we should try to put up a Bill which would be of some help in strengthening the law in this position. Of course, the result of the Williams Report was something impossible to draft into a Bill. in particular, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Halsbury. Most of the creative ideas in this Bill have stemmed from him. I should also like to thank our honorary and very professional draftsman, Godfrey Carter, who drafted the Bill for us.
The object of the Bill is to restrict pornography and, in particular, hard pornography. The recent debates on the licensing of sex shops produced a challenge as to why some of us wished to restrict sex activities and it was considered that this was an unacceptable interference of the liberty of the subject. The argument went that other human foibles like gambling and drinking are not prohibited but are only controlled. Why, therefore, did we feel this should go further to prohibition? I recognise that there is an argument that I have to answer and I will start my speech by doing so.
I believe that pornography by its method of exploiting human lust contains an extra dimension over drink and gambling in its threat to the life of the family, and stable family life is the basis of any stable social community. Pornography can be divided into soft pornography and hard pornography. The Bill is directed against hard pornography as material beyond the bounds of human tolerance, as the Bill says. The precise definition between hard pornography and soft pornography is difficult to make, but there is no difficulty in my mind in defining all pornography which deals with perverted sex as hard pornography. This material seeks to arouse human lust with displays of sodomy between men and women; lesbianism between women; homosexuality between men; and sadism, masochism, bestiality and child pornography.
All these sex activites, depicted in films and pictures, degrade women to the role of sex symbols and they degrade the normal sexual intercourse between men and women in an unpleasant way. All these imageries sow in men unnatural sexual appetites which turn them away from normal physical relationships between man and wife. The result is young men growing up with deformed sexual impulses and a growing number of
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marriages breaking up through the unnatural demands by husbands on wives.
The suggestion that this material could have a therapeutic value to disturbed marriages is the reverse of reality. This material is as far from the romance of a happy marriage as a sewage farm is from the open countryside. History tells us that all societies from primitive tribes to sophisticated nations always take strong action to check perversion. I suppose the most dramatic example in history was when the Emperor Constantine decreed in the middle of the 4th century AD that the persecuted Christian religion should become the official religion of the Roman Empire, because the corruption, vice and perversion of Roman life had degenerated to a point where marriages were falling apart and the virtues on which that great empire had been built were melting away. Traditional Mithraism was unable to check it. Evidently he and his advisers were persuaded that Christianity, with its emphasis on love and compassion, was the best prospect of reversing the trend.
I make the point because the fact is that there is nothing new in human lust turning to perversion and rulers acting to check it. What is new today is the large-scale production on national and international scales of this material. It is literally propaganda for perversion with the capacity to distribute its depraved material throughout the whole nation. This constitutes a far greater danger than nations have ever faced before in the history of mankind and therefore to the family life on which our societies are based. This is the justification for the law restricting the production and sale of pornography at some point, and the point I suggest is the point defined in the Bill.
The Bill has two new ideas. First, it has a new definition of pornography which aims to differentiate hard pornography from soft pornography and to make only the hard pornography illegal. In Clause 1(2)(a) the definition appears:
"calculated to arouse or gratify lascivious appetites".
The dictionary meaning of "lascivious" is wanton or lustful. That is a fairly precise definition of what we are talking about. One has only to look at the material to decide that that is what it is. Then, for a charge to succeed it must also satisfy Clause 1(2)(b):
"of such a kind that its dissemination by way of business can reasonably be regarded as an abuse of public tolerance".
This test is specifically intended to differentiate hard pornography from soft pornography. Hard pornography depicting perverted sex activities clearly falls within this category.
Public opinion is prepared to tolerate soft pornography, even if many do not like it. The point at which pornography becomes objectionable to most people, and therefore definable as hard pornography, will vary from one decade to another. and much which would have been judged intolerable 20 years ago is today judged as tolerable. Possibly in 20 years' time the change may have swung hack again.
The Bill is constructed in the belief that there is a residual sludge at the bottom of the bucket which is never going to be tolerable to public opinion and should therefore be made illegal. The second new idea is to make the offence of trading in this material for a profit, rather than the act of publication, as in

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the 1959 Obscene Publications Act. Thus, the main thrust of the Bill is against the producer, the importer and the wholesaler, where the big money is made in this trade. The retailer will only be touched by the Bill if the sale of hard pornography is on a scale that amounts to carrying on a business with a view to making a profit, as in most of the Soho sex shops.
Obviously a great booksellers like Hatchards selling Lady Chatterley's Lover or Fanny Hill probably would not come within Clause 1(2)(a)—certainly even less within Clause 1(2)(b). Similarly, the newspaper shop on the corner of the street selling the odd pornographic magazine would not be touched, either. Thus, the need for the statutory defences of public good for art, literature and science, necessary in the 1959 Act, are not necessary where the charge is constructed in this way.
Clauses 2, 3 and 4 are the normal machinery clauses. There is only one matter I want to say about them on enforcement, fines and imprisonment: the fine of £1,000 is clearly wrong; it should be at least 10 times that. Thus, the Bill is an attempt—and a carefully considered attempt—to preserve the liberty of the subject to buy and look at whatever he likes on the one hand, and on the other hand to check the main business of disseminating this extreme material which is polluting our national life.
What is the need for the Bill? I reckon that the reaction of noble Lords here and Members of Parliament in another place to the Government's Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill on the licensing of sex shops confirms the need for action. The general reaction is one of surprise and shock to learn that in order to cover everything that is sold in a sex shop the licence must include such matters as films, pictures and material relating to violence, cruelty and sex activity, the portrayal of urinary and excretary functions and genital organs.
I paraphrase Schedule 3 (3) to the Bill. Most people, I believe, imagined that such material was illegal and that action was taken against people who were trading in it or producing it. Unfortunately, the reality is far from that salubrious state of affairs. The trade grows and continues to grow, both in volume and depravity. The Metropolitan Police, who have to struggle with the main impact of the trade, tell me it is now so lucrative that it is literally like printing money, with production and importation growing all the time and the nature of some of the material makes even experienced policemen blench.
Why is the situation so alarmingly out of control? The answer must be squarely laid on the 1959 Obscene Publications Act. It has an admirable Long Title—
"To strengthen the law with regard to obscenity"—
but in practice it has proved to be a broken reed. Both the vagueness of the definition of the offence and the width of the statutory defences have together provided so many loopholes that the law is far too weak to withstand the pressure of the powerful financial interests disseminating this material. The present scene in Soho illustrates the point all too vividly. The sale of extreme pornography both in magazines and cinemas generally in breach of the law flourishes, making fortunes for a handful of operators; and it is beyond the resources of the law to check it.
The infrequency of convictions, combined with the
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modest level of fines when people are taken to court, is totally insufficient to deter the operators from pursuing their profitable trade outside the law. The small and dedicated police force involved are struggling against impossible odds to keep law and order there. But I should add something in the opposite direction. The first custodial sentence passed on a convicted offender from Soho confirmed in trenchant terms by the Court of Appeal a couple of weeks ago sent a shiver through Soho, so I am told, which may have an influence for the future.
However, it is obvious that a positive strengthening of the law is needed. The best solution would be a Government Bill to take the place of the 1959 Act. Unfortunately, the Home Secretary takes the view that there is an insufficient consensus of parliamentary and public opinion to achieve this. However, he has approved a sort of piecemeal approach by marginal legislation—the Indecent Displays (Control) Act, the Act concerning child pornography and now the sex licensing Bill. Each has helped a bit, and especially has helped a little to protect the young; but the main supply of pornography continues to grow, boosted especially by the modern techniques of video.
Last Sunday, Mothering Sunday in churches throughout the land was celebrated by children going up to the altar, receiving a posy of wild flowers and returning to give them to their mothers as a gesture of filial love. I watched the scene in my country church and as I watched the children skipping back to their mums with their posies of wild flowers, the beauty of the innocence of youth was deeply moving. I felt there really must be a way of checking the spread of this revolting material which is threatening their lives. There must be a way of making possible their upbringing in conditions where they will not meet this until they are old enough and adult enough to protect themselves. It is against that background that this Bill is brought forward, though it deals with only part of the problem. Nevertheless, that part is very important. I commend the Bill to your Lordships and to my noble friend Lord Belstead.
Lord Ardwick: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, does the passage about recording material of this type apply to video as well as to books and pictures?
Lord Nugent of Guildford: Yes, my Lords, I am assured by the parliamentary draftsmen that it definitely does.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time. —(Lord Nugent of Guildford.)
4.55 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time, to leave out ("now") and at end insert ("this day six months").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move an amendment to the Motion that this Bill be read a Second time. I beg to move that we should at the end of the Motion insert the words "this day six months". I regret, if I may say so, that we are asked to spend another day in your Lordships' House on sex We are getting far too much of it in this House, and

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indeed we have unfinished business before the House already on another aspect of this problem: that of sex shops. I feel also that a Bill of this kind is inappropriate for introduction into your Lordships' House. I think it should be introduced in the first instance in the representative Chamber of Parliament, theelected Chamber of Parliament. I have said before that I do not think it is seemly that a gathering of elderly Peers should be devoting so much time to problems which are really related to more youthful citizens.—
The Earl of Lauderdale: Nonsense!
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: The special quality of your Lordships' House is based upon experience and knowledge, very often of a specialised character, which can be brought to bear on the problems of the nation for the enlightenment and guidance of people generally and probably of the elected Chamber in particular. I doubt whether this is a subject on which our special experience and qualifications are suitable for the guidance and advice this Bill seeks to give.
Lord Somers: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? Is he suggesting those with personal experience?
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, I am not quite sure of the point of that intervention, but thought I had expressed myself pretty clearly on this, and it is only a supplement to observations of a similar character that I have made previously. It so happens that this Bill is introduced on the day after the remarks made by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice in your Lordships' House. What he said on this subject yesterday has, as was to be expected, struck the headlines this morning. It may appear to casual observers that your Lordships are well on the ball since the remarks of the Lord Chief Justice one day are followed by a Bill like this on the day after. This is, of course, purely coincidental, and I would not myself regard the remarks made by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice as a case for this Bill today. I would certainly agree that there is a case for more public discussion before deciding on further legislation on this difficult and emotive subject.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice referred to pornography coming across disguised as Dutch bacon and other commodities from Europe, but of course legislation already exists to intercept and stop that kind of traffic if it can be discovered: we do not need a new Bill to do that. I do not think there is any haste we can make today that is going to do any good.
Adverting to the string of sexual subjects we have been asked to deal with in your Lordships' House in recent days, I mentioned the Child Protection Act, the Indecent Displays (Control) Act of last year, the sex shops in the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, and now this Bill today. I suggest that we should dispose of the sex business that we already have on hand before taking on any more.
This Bill, like the other ones, entails further curbs on individual freedom, and it is that aspect of the matter which concerns me, first and foremost. Just recently, I received letters from undergraduates in Edinburgh University, saying that they had been asked
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to study in depth the proceedings on Bills that had passed through Parliament. One said that he was going to concentrate on the Child Protection Act and another said that she was going to concentrate on the Indecent Displays (Control) Act. What they wanted to know was why I was so persistent an opponent of both of them, and why it was that I appeared to be the only persistent opponent of those Bills when they came before the House.
I tried to explain that I am concerned with the erosion of the liberty of the subject, because I think that every time we do it—and every Bill of this kind does it—we have to justify it in a cause which overrides liberty itself. There are many such causes with consequential restraints upon individual freedom, and the question this afternoon is: do we add yet another to the growing list, with all the accompanying powers granted to the police, and, in some cases, to civil servants and local authority officials, to enter and search on a warrant issued by a magistrate, by force if necessary?
There is already a sizeable and growing area of our personal, social and business lives where the right of entry, by force if necessary, exists; in the field of taxation, expecially. We are now tacking on to that a kind of sexual addition to the field of the right of entry by force if necessary. We had it in the Child Protection Act and the Indecent Displays (Control) Act; we find it in the sex shops provisions of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and now, again, the same formula, almost in the same terms so far as I can tell, is in this Bill. So we find that dirty books and magazines take their place alongside taxpayers cooking the books, hard drugs, firearms and dangerous wild animals unlawfully kept in the kitchen. But it remains true—and we have heard it again this afternoon—that freedom is kept only at the price of eternal vigilance, and we have always to be vigilant about it.
I would add that we must still believe in freedom, whatever the judges may say. I am not for pornography. I detest it. I am for freedom, and this is the problem that anyone who is standing up for freedom has to face, because simple minds will say, "If you are opposing this, you must be for pornography". My Lords, I am nothing of the sort. r am saying that I am not prepared to surrender part of civil liberty until the case for it is proved to general satisfaction, and not only to the satisfaction of sectional or sectarian groups in the community. That is my fixed position. I am therefore, in principle, against censorship and against manipulation of the media and curbs upon what we are free to read.
On the evil faces of so-called pornography, violence, misbehaviour, violent sexual offences and crime, I believe there is still a lot to be explored in the deep recesses of the human mind. There is much to be learned about why people seek satisfaction in directions which are so repulsive to others. I ask: are we satisfied that this is the time here in this House to get down to a new letter of the law on this most profound subject, where emotions and prejudices, not to mention fears, are so easily aroused? Is it imperative now? Are we so clear on how to legislate? Have we not had plenty of worries in the past on these matters? Have we no doubts at all?

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The noble Lord, Lord Nugent, who introduced the Bill in the most temperate terms, as he always does, seemed to be clear in his mind about the definitions of this Bill. Yet I invite attention for a moment to Clause 1(2), where the definition of "pornography" is:
"printed, pictorial or recorded matter which, by reason of its concern with sex, violence, cruelty or horror
(a) is calculated to arouse or gratify lascivious appetites, and apparently created for that purpose".
If you go to the dictionary, you find that "lascivious" means "lustful", and, if you go to "lustful" to find out what that means, it says "lascivious". This is the kind of guidance that we get on the meaning of words. I ask in all seriousness: if something is calculated to do something, who is going to do the calculation? If we are told that it has to be calculated to arouse sensuous appetites regarded as sinful, animal desires for sexual indulgence or lascivious passion, all those are the things which the dictionary tells us are part of the interpretation of the words used in this Bill.
What are these things which will arouse sensuous appetites regarded as sinful, animal desires for sexual indulgence or lascivious passion? Much that the noble Lord was describing I found so objectionable and so repulsive that I cannot understand how it would arouse anything in anybody, except disgust and horror. How people can get satisfaction from looking at this kind of stuff is beyond my comprehension. I really doubt whether the extent of the use of it, or the satisfaction to be gained from it, is anything like what noble Lords may think. I ask bluntly, because we have all seen things happen around the precincts of the House: what do noble Lords think about page 3 of The Sun? Are human breasts soft-porn or hard-porn, or is what we see there calculated to arouse sensuous appetites regarded as sinful? What is page 3 of The Sun there for? Is not this part of the mischief —
The Earl of Haslbury: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way for me to answer his question? It falls within the limit of public tolerance. Otherwise, page 3 of The Sun would not he in your Lordships' Library.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, I am not saying whether it should, or would otherwise be. I am saying it is there and it is widely looked at. Therefore, one wonders how one distinguishes between one form of sexual propaganda and another. But these are all the old problems of trial by opinion on matters of opinion, rather than upon evidence.
I am not going to take up the time of the House any further with arguments on the Bill, when all that my amendment does is to defer consideration to the next Session. That really is the purpose of the amendment. I am saying that it would be wise of us to put off further consideration of the Bill, until there has been more public discussion on this subject, and we have disposed of other business on allied topics that has still to be dealt with in your Lordships' House. This was described, on a sheet of paper which I was handed today, as a dilatory Motion. It is not dilatory; it is purposeful. It has behind it the intention of having this matter considered at a later stage on a more satisfactory footing and in a different environment. It will give the Government time to consider the matter, along with all other aspects of the problem, which is
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undoubtedly of great concern to the public at the present time.
I believe that legislation by unfounded and whipped-up scares is thoroughly bad and that the Child Protection Act is such a case. But it so happens that the proposals on sex shops are the first to be brought forward by the Government of the day for as long as I can remember. There are calmer spirits in Whitehall than there are in Fleet Street and, indeed, in your Lordships' House. The pressures are not upon us in your Lordships' House in the same way as they are in another place where electoral considerations can be brought to bear. This puts us in a stronger position to proceed after full inquiry and due deliberation. I submit that we need more time for that.
I know that much time has been devoted to this subject by those who are intensely interested in it. We have still to reach conclusions upon the only recent report on this subject that we have available, the Williams Report. In a Written Answer which appears in yesterday's Official Report the noble Lord the Minister said that the Government have no plans to introduce comprehensive legislation arising from the Williams Report. I beg your Lordships' House to be steady on this and allied subjects. We can afford to be; we have the right to be and our seniority calls upon us to be. The other week it was rape, then it was murder, now it is pornography. And we have had sex shops in between. It is all pretty dreadful stuff. I have never had any; I have never bought it and I do not look at it, so my sensuous appetites, my animal desires and my lascivious passions are under complete control. Let us leave it there for the present and come back to it when we have got indecent displays and sex shops better sorted out. May I suggest, in conclusion, that even in matters of sex one step at a time is not a bad maxim to follow. My Lords, I beg to move my amendment.
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time, to leave out "(now") and at end insert ("this day six months)".—(Lord Houghton of Sowerby.)
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Airedale): My Lords, the original Question was that this Bill be now read a second time, since when an amendment has been moved to leave out "now" and insert "this day six months". The Question I now therefore have to put before the House is that this amendment be agreed to.
5.13 p.m.
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, the House—indeed, I would say the country—has been indebted for a long time to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, for the social battles which he has fought. I should like to pay my small tribute to him and to his worthy ally, the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for the battle which they continue to wage today. I make no apologies for saying that this is a subject which ought to occupy your Lordships' House, and it is a very good expenditure of time that we do so. I do not confuse the issue today with one of liberty. I hope that, with others of your Lordships, I am prepared to shed my blood in the cause of liberty. I am not prepared to shed a sneeze in order to protect the liberty of those

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who make fortunes out of hard pornography. It is of course a tremendously important subject.
If my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby will forgive me, I do not think I can quite so easily dismiss as he did some of the remarks that were made in the most interesting and useful debate on law and order which took place yesterday in your Lordships' House. I thought it was one of the best illustrations that I have had in my short stay in your Lordships' House of the eminence of the opinions that can be brought forward on important national issues.
As part of that, I do not minimise a contribution made by somebody with all the illustrious past and with all the great experience of our present Lord Chief Justice, and in the light of this debate it is rather interesting to reflect upon what he said. I quote him shortly from col. 989 of the Official Report of your Lordships' deliberations yesterday. This is what he said:
"… one would only have to sit for a short time in my court in the Strand to realise the imitative effect of the huge increase in the sale of pornography. The rarefication and the recondite type of sexual behaviour which now accompanies sexual crime is almost unbelievable, and it is quite obviously traceable to the glossy imports which come into this country,".
Then followed the quotation of my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby. But with respect, I do not think that the Dutch are known for bacon. In fact, the noble and learned Lord said "disguised as Danish bacon"—not Dutch bacon—
"or Dutch tomatoes, in very large quantities and which, percolated through various shops, find their way into the hands of young people, with the inevitable imitative results which we see, increasingly, every day. These are the areas,"
said the noble and learned Lord,
"where I respectfully suggest that the attack should be levelled rather than, too late, at the time when these young people arrive in court or in the hands of the police".
When observations of that weighty kind are made I do not think noble Lords will regard it as a waste of their time to he debating the matter that we are debating in regard to the Second Reading of this Bill.
Having said that, when we come to look at a Bill dealing with these matters, may I suggest that there are three phases through which we ought to go. The first is to decide for ourselves where criminal law comes in, where questions of conscience and morality come in and where the boundary between them is. We had occasion to do that when the Wolfenden Committee sat from 1954 for some few years. I happen to have been a member of that committee. Your Lordships will remember that it was a committee which dealt with homosexual offences and prostitution. If your Lordships will allow a personal anecdote, I can remember so well—I happened to be the chairman of the London County Council at the time—receiving a letter from the then Home Secretary, who subsequently graced the Woolsack. I carry with me to this very day the memory of that letter. I wonder whether it was truly a compliment, because the letter read as follows:
"I am thinking of setting up a committee to deal with homosexual offences and prostitution and I cannot think of anyone more suitable than you to be a member of that committee".
I continue to doubt the worth of that compliment. Be that as it may, your Lordships will appreciate that one of the matters which we had to consider at a very
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preliminary stage of our deliberations was the boundary line between morals, ethics, the conscience of the nation and where the criminal law comes in.
With your Lordships' permission, I shall merely quote, shortly, from paragraph 13 at page 9 of that report:
"What acts ought to be punished by the State? We have therefore worked with our own formulation of the function of the criminal law so far as it concerns the subjects of this inquiry. In this field, its function, as we see it, is to preserve public order and decency, to protect the citizen from what is offensive or injurious, and to provide sufficient safeguards against exploitation and corruption of others, particularly those who are specially vulnerable because they are young, weak in body, or mind, inexperienced, or in a state of special physical, official or economic dependence. It is not, in our view, the function of the law to intervene in the private lives of citizens, or to seek to enforce any particular pattern of behaviour, further than is necessary to carry out the purposes we have outlined".
I think that is a sensible way in which to approach these matters. I noted that those who are responsible for this Bill and for bringing it before your Lordships were careful to see that, whatever they might think of the dissemination of hard pornographic material, this Bill does not make it a criminal offence for an adult who desires to go out and privately acquire pornographic literature to do so, provided he does not deal in it for the purpose of gain.
We move to the next stage and say that this Bill, in trying to protect the young and the weak and to deal with an evil is, of course, within the domain suggested as appropriate for the criminal law by the Wolfendon Committee. I move on to the next phase and ask this question of myself, and I ask your Lordships to consider it with me. What is the state of the present law and does it deal with the mischief? The present law is enshrined in an Act which is not very old and which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford. It is the Obscene Publications Act 1959, as amended by the Act of 1964. I would say, with respect—and I will go on to the suggested weaknesses we have heard about in this debate—that if you do not have to alter an Act of Parliament by passing another Bill, you are doing the right thing in not altering it. You do not need to clutter up the statute book with new legislation, especially in regard to these matters on which we have separate Bills already, unless there is a compelling reason to do so.
May I remind your Lordships of what the existing law is? Your Lordships will bear with me if, instead of paraphrasing, I quote the actual sections involved. Section 1 of the Obscene Publications Act states:
"(1) For the purposes of this Act an article shall be deemed to be obscene if its effect or (where the article comprises two or more distinct items) the effect of any one of its items is, if taken as a whole, such as to tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it.
(2) In this Act "article" means any description of article containing or embodying matter to be read or looked at or both, any sound record, and any film or other record of a picture or pictures.
(3) For the purposes of this Act a person publishes an article who—

(a) distributes, circulates, sells, lets on hire, gives, or lends it, or who offers it for sale or for letting on hire; or

(b) in the case of an article containing or embodying matter to be looked at or a record, shows, plays or projects it".

I stop the quotation there. There is no doubt that every type of dealing for gain is covered by that section.

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There is no doubt that the article has a wide definition in it and, so far as I understood it, the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, who is always so clear in his language and so precise in seeing that he puts his case fairly, said that one of the two objections, although it was his main one, was that prosecution could not easily be brought because of the definition that was given to "obscenity", and he preferred his own definition.
I think we had better look at that because, as the noble Lord said very fairly, there was successful prosecution under this Act only recently and when the court of appeal sat upon the matter it refused the appeal. I must apologise to your Lordships if I am reading too much, but I want to be precise and do not want to paraphrase—and this is a very important matter. The Law Report appearing in The Times of 17th March, only a few days ago, was headed, "Jail policy for pornographers". It goes on to report:
"The Court of Appeal dismissed an appeal by"—
I will not mention the names—
"against a total sentence of six months' imprisonment imposed on him on January 22, 1982, at Knightsbridge Crown Court (Judge Morton and a jury)"—
and I underline "jury" for the moment—
"on a conviction of six offences of having obscene articles for publication for gain contrary to Section 2(1) of the Obscene Publications Act 1959, as amended".
The report continues:
"Lord Justice Lawton, giving the judgment of the court, said that the case was of some importance because it was the first for some time in which the court was able to decide what should be the sentencing policy in regard to the commercial exploitation of pornography".
I will pause there, because I understand the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, to say that punishment was another thing he was looking at under the old law, because it would seem to be minimal compared with the nature of the offence. Here we have an illustration of what our courts are doing in regard to this matter, and it was no very slight penalty that was imposed then or is being advocated for the future. The report continues:
"There was no doubt whatever that at the material time, in March 1979, the appellant was selling pornographic material in the way of books, films and video tapes on a commercial scale".
The report goes on to say that the appellant had pleaded not guilty at the original trial. Lord Justice Lawton was reported as saying that:
"It could not be said that in this class of case it was elderly judges who were setting what some might regard as old fashioned standards. The jury were representative of the community at large and if a modern jury took the view that books, films and video tapes were obscene it could be taken that they were reflecting the present-day view about these matters".
I stop there.
A defect that I see in this Bill—and obviously I am making the case that the Bill is unnecessary, although obviously I agree with its purpose—is that the offences under it can only be tried before a magistrate and it is the magistrate—or lay magistrates—who must decide whether these offences have been committeed. There is no right to go before a jury. The learned Lord Justice Lawton emphasised how important it was, in his view, that a jury should be able to temper the times in which they are making their judgment with the language employed in the state statute.
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I continue for another reason with the next paragraph of the law report, and then I promise to stop quoting:
"The problem was what the trial judge should do when there was a verdict of guilty in this class of case, where there was commercial exploitation of pornography as there was here. In R. v. Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, ex parte Blackburn (The Tittles, March 7, 1980) it came to light that the Commissioner was doing his best to control pornography but he was limited by the available resources of manpower and money".
The commissioner had a chance of saying that he was limited—and I am quoting the noble Lord, Lord Nugent—by the vagueness of the statute. The commissioner could have said that he was limited by the fact that he just could not get juries to convict on the present state of the law and therefore the law needed changing. The commissioner did not say that. Nor did the learned Lord Justice say that. What he said was that the reason for the small number of prosecutions was because the police were limited by manpower and money.
My Lords, I have been speaking for long enough and I only want to say this in conclusion. The noble Lord, as I said, ought to be congratulated because if he brings this matter again before the public eye and Soho trembles—again I think I am quoting him—as a result of this debate in your Lordships' House—and indeed other people may tremble as a result of other things that happened in your Lordships' House this afternoon, and not necessarily on this Bill many of us will be very pleased. If it puts some strength behind the hands of the commissioner, if it encourages the Secretary of State to see that the Treasury supplies him with enough resources to see that the existing legislation is carried out and, if necessary, to increase the police force in regard to the part of the establishment that would deal with these matters, then your Lordships, I am perfectly sure, again would not regard this as a waste of time, nor would they regard is as a waste of time that the noble Lord has presented this Bill to us today.
Having said that, and having made it abundantly clear, I hope, that I personally—and one speaks personally on Private Bills from this Front Bench—sympathise so much with the object of the exercise, I am afraid I must say that to interfere with the present legislation does not seem to me necessary, certainly not to the extent of bringing forward a new Bill and making it into an Act. But having said that, I look forward with great interest to hear those who will be participating in this debate, not least the noble Viscount who will be following me and will be delivering his maiden speech. I am quite sure that others of your Lordships will find my argument somewhat faulty, but at the moment I believe in it implicitly.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, would he address himself to this point? I agreed with so much of what he said. But would he agree that the case which he quoted with such felicity from the Court of Appeal, to which I also referred, is a case on its own? Is he aware that normally when the police think they have material which should be charged, four-fifths of the cases are judged by their lawyers and the public prosecutor not to be suitable to proceed under Clause 2, and therefore should proceed under Clause 3 and go to the magistrates' court for forfeiture, because of the difficulty of

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convincing juries? Is he aware that of the 20 per cent. that go to the Crown court, although the material is invariably extreme, over half fail to get convictions before a jury? Would the noble Lord, in concluding his speech, say a word on this single excellent case? Does he really believe, with the defences being constructed as they are in the 1959 Act, that we have got a weapon strong enough there to deal with this very powerful influence behind pornography?
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, those wiser than the humble Lord who addresses his answer to that question sat on the Williams Committee, and they composed paragraphs, Chapters 8 and 9 as I remember, dealing with this very point. After all their deliberations and all their wisdom, if I remember correctly, they came out with a formula by way of alternative to the language of the 1959 Act and made the offence one which was "offensive to reasonable people". I must say that to use that definition creates in my mind—and I can only give an individual opinion—the feeling that not just the percentages to which the noble Lord referred would fail to get past those who were saying whether it was likely to lead to conviction; I would have thought the percentages would be increased by that definition, because who is a reasonable person—except, obviously, all your Lordships—and what is deemed to be offensive?
If I may further answer the noble Lord quite briefly, I do not find it any easier, to be very frank, to think that the definitions employed in this Bill would have any other lot than the ones under the present Act. I find that the only way in which the noble Lord with his ingenuity has got over that is by saying, "Please let us dispense with juries; they are much too undependable. Let us have the magistrate". I do not think that is the way in which your Lordships would wish to deal with matters of this kind. Magistrates are but human beings and, my Lords, do they vary! I can tell that to your Lordships from personal experience. I can see before me at this moment one magistrate who would go red in the face at page 3 of the Sun; I can see others who would tolerate very much more than page 3 of the Sun, and ask why it was their time was being taken up with this case in their courts. So it must be a matter for the jury, and if people are now taking a broader view of things than they should, that is a matter, I would have thought, for education and for dealing with the moral standards of the public. I do not think your Lordships can legislate for that.
5.38 p.m.
Viscount Buckmaster: My Lords, having spent the last 30 years as a backwoodsman, or perhaps I might say more appropriately back desertman, in the Arabian Peninsula and in various other parts of the Arab world, it is with the greatest humility that I rise to support this Bill, which deals with a subject of the greatest concern to me. The all pervasive presence of pornography affects almost all of us; few indeed can escape from it.An Arab poet once wrote, many years ago:
"Even sparrows suffer from piles".
I wonder whether there are any noble Lords who are
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sufficiently well versed in biology to confirm or refute this.
The noble Lord, Lord Nugent, has, rightly, I am sure, confined the drafting of this Bill to the effects of pornography on British subjects. I would put to your Lordships that there is another and very important dimension to this problem, and that is the impact of pornography on foreigners resident in and visiting Britain. I must confine my remarks to the Moslem communities and here I would remind your Lordships that there are now something like 1½ million to 2 million Moslems resident in Great Britain and roughly half a million Moslems visitors annually.
In dealing with this subject I must inevitably deal, briefly I hope, with the teachings of Islam, and Moslem friends of mine have asked me particularly to make these points. I am, of course, conscious of the time limit rightly and traditionally imposed on maiden speakers, but I would ask your Lordships' indulgence if I exceed the time limit. However, if any noble Lord wishes to leave the Chamber or to enter it at any stage it will not in anyway disturb or annoy me.
My Lords, 30 years ago I was in the middle of a long journey by camel—2½ months in fact—and it took me to the remotest corners of Arabia, in connection with the frontier dispute between Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia. During the course of that journey I was able wholly to lose touch with the 20th century, and I can assure your Lordships that it was the most wholesome and beneficial experience of my life. The severe beauty of the desert is matched by the austere, puritanical character of the bedouin, who, from earliest childhood, had been rooted and founded in the teachings of Islam and the traditions of the desert. These are people among whom the spiritual and the secular co-exist so harmoniously—a people who, unlike ourselves, are never wholly earthbound.
I must assure your Lordships that I am no desert romantic. I am all too well aware that the picture of pristine purity which I presented to your Lordships—and which, of course, applied only to a part of Arabia 30 years ago—has changed out of all recognition. The Cadillac has largely replaced the camel: money has corrupted many; and we read stories of Arab sheikhs who would rather buy a new Mercedes than empty the ashtrays in the old one.
I am aware, too, that many of our Arab friends who visit Britain come here in search of carnal rather than cultural pleasures, Nevertheless, the break-up of the traditional moral structure which has resulted from the all too rapid onrush of the 20th century on to a 14th or 15th century edifice, has not, broadly speaking, affected the outlook of a great many Arabs, particularly those of the greatest influence, who are still rooted and grounded in the teachings of Islam, which I shall examine shortly, and the traditions of the desert.
If your Lordships will permit me, I shall return, briefly, I hope, to the desert. Those of us who know it well would agree that its most surprising characteristic is its variety. A traveller will find himself at one time on flat sand, flanked by dunes of unearthly beauty, at the next, and without any warning, he will be in a quicksand or caught in the clawing clutches of a salt marsh. In the same way, the unsuspecting visitor to Britain will find himself at one moment elated by the glories of Westminster Abbey, at the next appalled

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by the pornographic cesspits of Soho. It is this traumatic transition, from the beautiful to the beastly, from the dignified to the degrading, from the supra-human to the sub-bestial, which is so disturbing to so many of our Moslem visitors.
But there is an even more sinister aspect to this picture. Well do I remember a little oasis in the desert—a few attractive little palms surrounded by sand dunes. Every time I visited it the sands had encroached just a little bit further, silently, slowly, imperceptibly, until in the end those lovely palms, which gave much needed shade and delicious dates, had been throttled, stifled, extinguished by the desert. In the same way, when I visited Soho recently, I looked hard for an attractive little restaurant which I used to visit 25 years ago. But where was it?—it had been buried, stifled, extinguished by the porn shops, the video parlours and the blue sex clubs which had sprung up all around it.
I must now deal as briefly as I can with the teachings of Islam in relation to pornography and public morals. We in your Lordships' House have the privilege of the right reverend Prelates who can give us a Christian view on moral issues. I know that there are many noble Lords who profess the Jewish faith. This may he, perhaps, the first time that the voice of the third great monotheistic religion—Islam—has been heard in your Lordships' House. Let me assure your Lordships that I am no Moslem. My studies of Islam have, in fact, confirmed and strengthened my belief in Christianity, as illustrating the closeness of these two great religions. I am, therefore, not trying to convert your Lordships to Islam; and I would never move that the call from the minaret replace the prayers which we are so privileged to hear from right reverend Prelates in your Lordships' House.
Speaking about a religion which is not one's own is a great responsibility and a delicate and very difficult task. But I can assure your Lordships that what I shall say has the full support of the leading Islamic authorities in Britain. The most important point to make about Islam is that Moslems believe that the Koran was divinely revealed to the prophet Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel. Indeed, if one remembers that the prophet was totally illiterate at the time, this remarkable revelation is, in my view, one of the great spiritual revelations of all times and all religions. It is quite wrong, therefore, to say that Mohammed wrote the Koran in the same way as the evangelists wrote the Gospels, or the Old Testament prophets wrote their great works of prophecy. Let me add that Islam is a far more powerful force in the lives of most Moslems, even those who do not actively profess their faith, than Christianity is in the lives of most Christians.
Let me now look at those aspects of Islam which particularly concern the Bill that we are now discussing. And the most important of these aspects is its emphasis on discipline. And from discipline flow dignity, decorum and, above all, decency. Who can understand the true meaning of discipline who has not kept—as I have very briefly—the Ramadan fast? This is a real fast which lasts for 30 full days, during which, from before sunrise to after sunset, Moslems are forbidden to take any food or drink, or to smoke, and some of them will not even swallow their own saliva. So this is a real fast, not just a matter of giving up sugar in one's tea for Lent, which no doubt some noble Lords are now doing.
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Islam is particularly a religion which enforces the strictest discipline on young children. I have seen many young children aged six to eight sit for hours on end in their fathers' assemblies, silent and motionless. I would invite your Lordships to compare the behaviour of such children with that of the school rebels of Toxteth or Bideford. Inherent also in Islam is its emphasis on dignity—a dignity which expresses itself in their films, in their pictures, in their way of life, how they greet each other, and how they offer condolences. would remind your Lordships perhaps of the great care taken in the preparation of the film, "The Message", about the life of the Prophet Mohammed, in which the prophet himself never appeared; indeed, his name was not even mentioned in the title. Can one be surprised at the comparison which Moslems draw between the presentation of that film and the presentation of "Jesus Christ Super Star"?
In regard to dress, the very strictest rules are laid down, and, although they have now been relaxed, the Koran lays down quite clearly that the very minimum dress permissible for a Moslem when he is praying alone is a garment which extends from above the navel to below the knees. How well I remember the horror—yes, indeed, horror it was—that greeted one of Her Majesty's Ministers who arrived in a little state in the Gulf many years ago dressed in shorts.
At the time of Mohammed there was, of course, no pornography. But I would commend to your Lordships a short quotation from the Koran which I think sums up the teaching of Moslems on moral behaviour generally:
"Enjoin your believing men to avert their eyes from temptation and to restrain their carnal desires…Enjoin your believing women to avert their eyes from temptation and to observe chastity".
However, I must emphasise that Islam, unlike Christianity, does not recommend celibacy. On the contrary, the procreative act is regarded as one of the blessings of God, provided that it is used properly and hallowed. That is why Moslems regard so much of the horrible pornography and sex material which we see about today as so utterly abhorrent. In this context I would emphasise that Moslem parents take the strongest objection to some of the more explicit forms of sex education in schools, and I was delighted to see that this subject was raised in a Question in another place recently.
However, to my mind the most important aspect of Islam is the indestructible force of its moral teaching. To the believing Moslem, right is right and wrong is wrong, and what is wrong today cannot be made right tomorrow; what is considered obscene and forbidden today cannot he regarded as acceptable tomorrow. Just as in the desert there is no twilight, darkness succeeding the day almost immediately, so in Islam we do not suffer from the murky, moral twilight which we find so prevalent in this country.
Foreigners in Britain react in different ways to pornography. To some it is boring; to some, titillating; to some, sexually stimulating. No doubt some find it objectionable and repulsive. Some, indeed, I fear, may he corrupted and depraved by it. But to the believing Moslem—and I emphasise the word "believing"—pornography in any form, hard, medium or soft, is totally and absolutely abhorrent.

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Many Moslem visitors who come to London after years abroad are, I have found, quite overwhelmed by disbelief. Yes, indeed, it is sheer disbelief at what they see around them. "How", they say, "can the British with their great traditions of statesmanship and justice, their great Christian traditions, have fallen so far?" Indeed, I have had the same feeling when coming home on leave, whether it be from Muscat or Morocco, from Libya or the Lebanon. Coming home over the years I have asked myself again and again the question: "Can this be the Britain that I knew? Surely it is all a dream".
I have been trying to assemble evidence about the effect of pornography on visitors, on Anglo-Arab trade and on students. Like a well known BBC commentator, I have come to no firm conclusions. However, I have discovered a few interesting pointers. Here, very briefly, are some. The number of visitors to Britain from the Moslem world has declined over the past two years by roughly 28 per cent., and although one cannot ascribe this to pornography—and with pornography, of course, one must add, what I call, the pernicious package, which includes such things as violence, drugs, muggings, and so on—this package is, I think, an important element in that trend.
I am glad to inform your Lordships that our trade with the Arab world has increased quite considerably. Last year we exported £5·2 billion worth of British goods to the Arab world, compared with £4 billion in 1980. However, during my experience in the Arab world I have found that some Arab merchants have been deterred—and doubtless will continue to be deterred—by what they see around them. In this connection, I was delighted to hear the other day on the BBC that a certain firm which did much business with the Arab world had decided to ban from its factories all the pictures of glossy girls which gave such offence to their distinguished Arab customers.
Now, students. Among other things I work with a society which arranges entertainment, hospitality, and so on, for something like 560 overseas students drawn from about 60 nationalities. Some of these have assured me that they are deeply offended and disturbed by the pornography they see around them. One of these students told me—and this is most interesting if it is true—that more students in his hostel failed their examinations through preoccupation with pornography (and this applied particularly to blue films) than from any other cause.
I know, too, that many Moslem parents have now decided not to send their children to Britain because of the corruption which they consider they will find here. And only the other day I read of a big Arab university which was putting out a warning to its students, "Don't go to Britain to learn technology from the lepers".
There is always a lighter side to every picture. I would put to you briefly that some of our Moslem visitors find themselves totally and utterly confused by the permissive society, pornography, and all that. Let me give you briefly two examples. I remember an Arab father counselling his son about to go to Britain, "Wherever you go, my boy" he said, "and whatever
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you do, under no circumstances must you go to the ballet".
On another occasion an Arab sheikh from a certain distant state in the Arab world was brought to Britain. He was taken to a certain large store in London famous for its watches. After a long perusal of the watches on the counter he suddenly blurted out, "I'll have that one But he did not mean a watch, my Lords. He meant one of the ladies behind the counter.
I have quoted from the Koran because I believe its teachings are of great relevance to us. Let me leave your Lordships with a quotation from Romans, Chapter 12, verse 2:
"be not conformed to this world;
but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind…".
I need not remind your Lordships that St. Paul urged the Philippians to,
"think on things pure, lovely, and of good report".
In the same way, Plato wrote:
"Let our youth live in a beautiful land".
There is a great deal of beauty around us in this lovely land of ours, but, like the man with the muck rake in the Pilgrim's Progress, we are so busy raking muck that we can only cast our glance downwards.
I am not competent to comment on the finer points of this Bill. Noble Lords, noble and learned Lords, right reverend Prelates no doubt, could do this far better than I. None of us would claim that this Bill is going to put the clock back. Pornography of one kind or another is likely to be with us for a great many years, and we can no more hope to eradicate it than we can hope to cure those poor little sparrows of their piles.
This Bill is of supreme importance to me because it touches on those great moral issues which are the mainspring of our lives and the very bedrock of our beings. I would therefore commend this Bill to your Lordships because it points a finger in the right direction. It points to the path which leads out of the foetid swamps and the malodorous marshes; a path that leads to those sunlit uplands, those serene, unsullied sands, however distant they may be, which most of us, whatever our race and whatever our religion, would at heart wish to reach.
6.5 p.m.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, in addressing your Lordships' House this evening my first and pleasant task is to congratulate, on your Lordships' behalf, the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, on a maiden speech whose modesty was very much in the tradition of your Lordships' House and which was interlaced with that poetry and poetic feeling for the desert which has always been, almost anomalously, attractive to the inhabitants of this rather damp island. I believe the point he made was extremely important. I sometimes feel ashamed of what foreigners must think about us when they see the state of some of our porn shops. It gives me particular pleasure to speak on your Lordships' behalf on this occasion as the noble Viscount's grandfather was a friend of my father, and I have frequently been regaled in youth with some of his obiter dicta. I am sure I shall be speaking for all your Lordships if I say that we look forward to hearing him on many occasions in the future.

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Now to our muttons. I support the Bill and oppose the amendment. I should like to begin by discounting certain criticisms which may recur in the course of the debate, because the positive points in favour of the Bill have been so ably put by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, that I do not want merely to repeat them. First it may be argued, and the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has argued—and I ought really in parenthesis to break off and say that I would thank him most sincerely for a sympathetic attitude towards, and the study which he has put into, this Bill—that the Bill covers ground covered by other statutes.
Supposing that it does; that a statute never should cover ground of another statute is a counsel of perfection. We cannot always achieve it. There is one particular respect in which I do not think this Bill is, as it were, tautologous repetition of another Act. I am not quite sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, is aware of the loophole in the 1959–1964 system (I will call it that) presented by those words, "deprave and corrupt". It opens a gap for defence counsel through which he can conduct a cart and horse.
I am not speaking on this point out of special pleading or in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. I have made it in this House before, and I made it in evidence to the Williams Committee when they were sitting. Defence counsel can turn to the jury and say, "On this material which has been put before you in evidence, do you feel depraved and corrupted?" The jury will answer, I think quite truthfully, "No, we don't feel depraved and corrupted. We may find it abhorrent and he repelled, but we don't feel depraved and corrupted". I think they are speaking the truth, because I do not believe that looking at one dirty picture once depraves and corrupts you; and that is the weak point of the law as it stands at the moment. What is depraving and corrupting is making a habit of it, and then allowing it to be the accompaniment of what we sometimes call solitary sex.
Another argument that can be put forward is that we are taking on a problem that is too difficult to handle. I do not believe that. It is an argument for putting our armour on and reaching for our weapons from the wall. It is not an argument for taking them off and hanging them up.
In the late war we used to say, "The difficult we do at once; the impossible takes us only a little longer". It is in that spirit that, in the United States, three fighting Solicitors General have cleaned up their bailiwicks in the cities of Atlanta, Cincinnatti and Phoenix, all of them big cities. The one-time porn shops there have put up their shutters and slunk away to shabbier markets elsewhere, and therefore to the right honourable gentleman the Home Secretary I say, "It can be done. Go thou and do likewise! This Bill should be a tool to your hand".
I come to my reasons for opposing the amendment. Basically, I oppose it because it enshrines a bogus philosophy. No matter how many advocates that philosophy attracts in the course of the debate, it were better to skewer them collectively and have them down en brochette, as it were, than tackle them seriatim, bite after bite; and contrary to the rules of order, which allow me only one meal. The philosophy, which is sometimes called liberal humanism, asserts that there are no absolute standards of morality or
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for that matter, anything else, and was first put forward by Protagoras in 450 BC, and it keeps on cropping up.
If there are no absolute standards of reference, then all debate is otiose. But your Lordships do entertain dialetic; you do argue and you do base your arguments on standards, and there is no worthier moralist in the House than the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, albeit he is a moralist with an alternative theory of first principles which his practice constantly belies. He is forever arguing. He is not only a moralist but a passionate one, and never more fervid than when denouncing moral fervour in other people, especially when their ideas do not coincide with his.
I find that his so-called liberal humanism is dogmatic, intolerant and in no sense liberal. It has nothing in common with humanism as I understand it; that is, the Neo-Platonic Christian humanism of the Renaissance which gave us Dante's Paradiso, nor with our own 17th century Cambridge Platonists and the other Cambridge scholars who gave us the poetry of Vaughan and More. It is irrational where it pretends to be rational and sails under false colours. It substitutes the great coincidence theory for the law of cause and effect, and we heard about that yesterday, especially in that remarkable maiden speech from the Lord Chief Justice.
We abolish the death penalty and up goes the murder of police officers, and it is all a coincidence. We liberalise sexual intercourse, thereby encouraging promiscuity, and up goes the incidence of veneral disease, and it is all a coincidence. We tolerate sexual perversion and solitary sexual indulgence inspired by the pornographers' pictures, films and cassettes, and up go rape, sodomy and the molestation of the young, and it is all a coincidence. We reject the distinction between freedom and licence, and out breaks a conflict between freedom and freedom which freedom in abstracto cannot cope with and cannot resolve, and it is all a coincidence.
Our business this afternoon is the very scrag-end of politics. One man's meat being another man's poison, it transpires that one man's freedom for whatever it may be is in headlong collision with another man's freedom from the very same thing. And freedom in the abstract cannot resolve it, however appealed to. Freedom is an undoubted value of our civilisation, but it is not the only value. That classical trio—truth, beauty and goodness—rank level with it. Freedom without goodness leads to nothing but violence and anarchy; freedom without truth leads to nothing but squabbling and backbiting; and freedom without beauty leads you to Soho.
The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, demands freedom for the production, circulation and enjoyment of pornography. I demand freedom from it, knowing that once in circulation—and it circulates—the minds of the young and innocent will be distorted and poisoned by it. They will acquire an utterly wrong attitude to the indulgence of their sexual urges. They will come to think of it as some sort of super candy-floss to be had, consumed and enjoyed at regular intervals as a pleasure isolated from life, but never as expressing the consummation of a loving relationship between people engaged on the lifetime's task of raising a family together.
Chivalry and gentleness to the weaker sex—and they are the weaker in terms of the brute force that can

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rape them—was one of the happier discoveries of Christian knighthood. The legends of Arthur and the ideals on which they are founded are one of the glories of our Western literature, European as well as British. What sort of chivalry do you expect to find in the sleazy porn shops of Soho's mafeosi? What sort of chivalry do they or their clients extend to the girls who pose for them?
The idea that when two freedoms of the kind to which I have referred collide, one or the other must be upheld without restriction, is a political nonstarter. There has to be a compromise, and that is just what the Bill achieves, as expounded by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent. Think not of what is condemns but of what it permits. It disregards the difficult area where one might declare a demaracation dispute between girlie magazines and the National Gallery. It makes no attempt to catch the lewd fellow with a dirty picture in his pocket. The customs may catch him if he bought it aboard on holiday and imported it, but the Bill does not.
Last week the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, told the House that he had given the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, up for Lent. I have taken no such vow of abstinence. He may disqualify me as a legislator because my physiology is senescent. He may disqualify the whole of your Lordships' House for the same reason, though I can think of some youngsters on the Back Benches who would not take it in very good part if that were attributed to them. But his emphasis on age induces in me a mood where, relative to his strictures, I begin to find his philosophy somewhat juvenile by contrast, a temptation reinforced by contemplation of the marvellously prolonged span of years which find him still incredibly forceful and energetic, to the admiration of his friends, of whom I am one. Nevertheless, I cannot help but reflect sadly on the dictum: "What a priceless gift is youth; what a crime to waste it on the young!"
It is a great pity that the noble Lord's gifts are squandered on nothing worthier than the protection of pimps, perverts and pornographers. For that reason I oppose his amendment. I shall vote accordingly if the matter goes to a Division, and I hope your Lordships will do the same.
6.18 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Southwell: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish again to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, on his maiden speech. It was a very different speech from any other maiden speech I have ever heard and it reminded me of an important fact; namely, that all too often we forget that considerable minority of people who live among us who have very strong religious beliefs indeed. I sometimes wish that the press were as sympathetic towards Christian sentiment as they are often towards the sentiment of other religions. I think sometimes we are gravely deficient in the way in which we regard the feelings of Christian people.
It is often asked whether the Bench of Bishops has a party line on issues debated in this House. We have not. I speak for myself, and others doubtless would make a very different speech in this debate. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, for introducing
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the Bill. Obviously my stand is that of many people, and it must be that pornographic material is trash, is the serious trivialisation of sex and is deeply offensive to the majority of right-thinking people, and let nothing I say throw any doubt on that.
As I understand it, today's debate is not about pornography but about legislation about pornography. What we are dealing with is how best we can legislate against it—and that is a very different matter. It has always been one of my moral convictions that I must think seriously about the consequences of my actions, even my right actions. That is why, for instance, personally I cannot be a pacifist; for I believe that I am just as blameworthy for the actions that I allow as those that I commit. To refuse to resist evil can be a collusion with evil and have disastrous results.
That means in connection with this Bill that, while I am wholly approving of its intentions, I am doubtful about its results. Will the Bill achieve what the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, intends, or will it only make the law more difficult to define, and so create more loopholes? If it were successful, it could even drive underground the whole trade in pornography, with some very nasty and unpredictable results.
The first thing that I want to stress is that too often the Church has been somewhat negative in its approach to sexuality. It has treated sexuality as a danger, rather than as a wholesome and delightful aspect of human life. The Church has as its first concern the encouragement of a positive view of sex, so that relationships are improved within marriage and the trivialisation of sex is discouraged. It is not sufficient for the Church to be simply censorious.
I do not see the promoters of the Bill as being primarily censorious; they are realists, and the reality is that the pornographic industry is a huge industry and that its activities become increasingly offensive. And I use the word "offensive" in more than one sense; it is militantly on the march, and pornographic materials, if they are to satisfy lust, have to be increasingly obscene.
What I am persuaded of is that as a matter of policy we ought to pursue the line that the Williams Committee took on this matter; this has been mentioned. It is essentially that of removing pornographic material and displays from public view. The committee felt that offensiveness was at the heart of the danger of pornography and that the law acted most wisely when it reduced or eliminated the opportunities for it to offend people who are going about their ordinary avocations and who dislike having to be confronted by this trivialisation of sex. I believe that the Indecent Displays Act, recently passed, is along the right lines and needs to be given time to assert itself. It is highly unlikely that we shall be able to prevent the sale of this kind of material, but we must ensure that the public is not affronted by this business in any way.
It has surely been our experience that it is extremely difficult to legislate in this area of morality. The words "obscenity" and "indecency" are easier to define than to determine in a court of law. The present Bill introduces further concepts. The word "pornography", which I do not think has before been used in legislation, is one of them, and there are also the concepts of "lascivious appetites" and "public tolerance". I fear that we might be creating a happy

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hunting ground for lawyers who are seeking to find loopholes in the law. I wish I could believe that this extra clutch of concepts could make the law clearer and more workable.
I should like to state three simple convictions that I hold. One is that we must never stop trying to protect the general public from the damage that pornography can do; and that is one of the reasons why I support this particular Bill. Secondly, I believe that no one has the right to claim an unrestricted freedom on his actions. The freedom of the press is often defended beyond its proper limits. Freedom is not a licence to do what you like, but the right to act without restriction, except where the rights and interests of others are in conflict and need upholding. In my view pornography goes beyond that limit intrinsically and in the way in which it is made available.
Thirdly, I am convinced that nobody can be improved by legislation. You cannot improve behaviour by enacting laws, and yet—and this is the point that I wish to make—law can provide constraints which discourage bad behaviour. It was Professor Butterfield I think, who was professor of modern history in the University of Cambridge at the end of the last war, who wrote in his book, Christianity and History—and I am not quoting his words exactly—that it is amazing how badly good, honest men behave when the normal restraints of law are removed.
That rang very true for me at the time when I had just been a serving soldier and I recalled how I and others had behaved off the field of battle as we toiled our way remorselessly through the Italian campaign. Normally law-abiding men looted and treated with scant respect other people's property and rights merely because the normal, civilised constraints were inapplicable by reason of armed conflict.
Law can provide boundaries within which weak characters can be dissuaded from stupid action and within which all men can discern the nature of what is socially acceptable and right behaviour.
My one fear is that this Bill attempts to go beyond what the law can achieve. In its wording it seeks to restrict the dissemination of pornography, but the small print of the Bill means that it would amount almost to a total prohibition. We cannot stop lascivious people from behaving lasciviously if they are determined to do so. Our duty is to protect right-minded people from offence. I support the Bill and would do so more wholeheartedly if I could be convinced that it would sharpen up the law in the right way. I believe that it will perhaps have a contrary effect. However, I am hoping for the best. I am listening carefully to the debate. I support the Bill because I believe that this House is capable of improving it where it needs to be improved and of countering anything in it which is counter-productive.
6.29 p.m.
Lord Tranmire: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate has thrown down a challenge which I think is a far stronger challenge than the one given by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, in his formal amendment. I have been through this matter and I know the difficulties to which he alluded. For 25 years we have had a period during which there has been a large minority who have said that the right way to
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deal with this question is to remember that the permissive society is a civilised society. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Nugent of Guildford on choosing this day for the introduction of his Bill—the day after the debate on law and order, in which we had the remarkable maiden speech of the learned Lord Chief Justice, and the same day as polling in the Hillhead by-election, where the permissive society's disciples are engaged.
After all, my Lords, think of the history of it all. In 1959 a Private Member's Bill was introduced in the House of Commons, in order to secure a certain amount of permissiveness in dealing with borderline literature. That is how it began. It was then sent to a Select Committee of the House of Commons, and I was a Member of that Select Committee. We thought we had got it right. The Director of Public Prosecutions told us how worried he was at that time by the spread of pornography and the large fortunes which were then being made, in the year 1957, out of pornography. All our efforts quite clearly failed, and that is why the right reverend Prelate is right to challenge us on this Bill and say, "Have you got it right this time?".
When the Williams Committee came to look at the position, in their Chapter 4, paragraph 4, they said that the Director of Public Prosecutions had commented —and that was some 20 years after my experience—it was now quite impossible to be certain of securing a conviction by a jury of even what he considered to be a grossly obscene article. That really is my answer, I think, to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, who, in a very sympathetic speech, yet did not seem to think that there was any need for further legislation. As the learned Lord Chief Justice pointed out, there is a flood of pornography coming into this country and we have done nothing to stop it. It is now three years since we had the Williams Report, but nothing has been done to strengthen the law in this respect on what were then called obscene publications but what is more rightly called pornography.
My answer to the challenge of the right reverend Prelate is that in that committee, of which I eventually became the chairman, in the evidence we received from those who were interested in these matters and who wanted to get the right balance between the suppression of pornography and the suppression of freedom, we were told that the words chosen by Mr. Roy Jenkins in his Bill, "to deprave and corrupt", were not necessarily right. I remember that the evidence we received from Sir Alan Herbert—A. P. Herbert—was that he thought we were wrong to talk about obscenity; it would have been right to have talked about pornography. In his evidence, in Appendix 4 to the Select Committee's Report, he drafted what he thought would be the right approach in dealing with hard porn.
The terminology selected by my noble friend Lord Nugent is not unlike the terminology used by Sir Alan Herbert. A. P. H. used "prurient" rather than "lascivious". It was on that sort of basis. This is also the basis of the legislation, alluded to by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, in Atlanta, Georgia. They have used very similar language to that used in this Bill, and the result there has been that the porn shops have been closed. There was a very effective campaign by the solicitor-general in Atlanta, Georgia,

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and there was a report on it, which many of your Lordships will have seen, in The Times of today.
I would therefore suggest that this is worth a trial. Where we failed in the Obscene Publications Act was by putting in the provision dealing with what we called in our report the literary and artistic merit but what later became, in the Government Bill, the "public good" defence. That put a loophole right through the Act, so that porn still flooded in. No doubt as we go through this Bill at the later stages we can take up the challenge of the right reverend Prelate and see that it is made even more effective. But I think the House will generally find that this Bill is designed to get over some of the weaknesses that we experienced 25 years ago.
Of course, the difficulty will be in the timetable, to get this Bill through in time. It is starting late. But I would make an appeal to my noble friend the Minister that when you have the Williams Report saying that the Director of Public Prosecutions finds that one cannot prosecute articles that are grossly obscene, then there is a responsibility on the Government to take up their challenge. Where the Williams Committee went wrong was, I think, made quite clear in the speech of the Lord Chief Justice yesterday, when he said that the written word does no harm. If that is so, then, of course, this Bill is on the wrong lines, and undoubtedly all our previous efforts have been, too. We believe the written word has got to be attacked: and those who make large fortunes out of the written word—
Lord Mishcon: My Lords, I interrupt the noble Lord only because I think he would want me to. The inference of his speech—and I am sure he did not mean it—is that what he objected to had been said by the Lord Chief Justice and not by the Williams Committee. I wondered whether he would like to make it clear that he was criticising the Williams Committee in regard to the written word, and not the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice.
Lord Tranmire: I am sorry, my Lords, it is my stupidity. It is in my notes. What the Lord Chief Justice was saying is that there was a flood of written material that was causing young people to commit sexual crimes, and I am sorry if I did not make that clear. The Williams Committee said that they found the written word did not have that effect; that it happens with pictorial representations, but not with the written word. I thought the conclusive evidence was what the learned Lord Chief Justice said yesterday.
Therefore, I really think it is beholden on the Government, with the failure of the 1959 Act and with the failure, as I see it, of the permissive approach to these matters, and looking at what has been done in countries like America in certain states, to make an attack on what is now a disgrace in Britain, and that is the spread of pornography and its effect on violent and sexual crimes. I would therefore ask my noble friend to attack this problem and either to adopt what I would call the A. P. Herbert approach on dissemination of pornography or—and this is the one way you can really deal effectively with it—to take the profit out of porn. This is a very big industry at the present time. Large fortunes are being made.
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Therefore, as large fortunes are being made, there is a very strong lobby against dealing with porn. I think we have been far too long in waiting before taking action.
6.40 p.m.
Lord MacLeod of Fuinary: My Lords, this is a Bill to assist the abolition of pornographic literature and pornographic devices. I make no apology for speaking in directly Christian terms. After all, we cannot exist as a House, we cannot legislate, without a previous obeisance to Christ. That Christ is king of kings, lord of lords and the only ruler of princes, is part of our constitutional agreement. It is in this sense, in the light of His teaching, that we are to legislate in all things. Yet we sometimes—and, I believe, increasingly at the present time—seem in our legislation to defy even two or three of the Ten Commandments such as, "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not covet" and, Thou shalt not commit adultery". It is the declension in our common judgement that makes this Bill an absolute necessity.
I think that your Lordships will agree that one of the commonest phrases that people use today is, "What's the matter"? "What's the matter in this respect, or in that respect"? What is the matter, for instance, just to make a major point, in this phrase: "Thou shalt not kill"? We speak of atomic warfare, to which as a nation we seem to be legally committed. For centuries, we could not as a nation go to war except it was justified. The end justified the means. But today we would all agree, I think, with the Pope, who recently said that it is impossible to conceive of a just war in a nuclear age. Yet we are spending millions on preparing for just such an occasion.
"What's the matter?" Let me put it in this way. Supposing the coming talks between America and Russia were to come to nothing. Supposing that, instead, there was an ominous crisis and the possibility of a nuclear holocaust coming soon. Let us suppose that the Government decided to conscript not just the Territorial Army but all the adults in the country because we are in this situation. Let us suppose that the issue is: who is to launch from the submarine the missile which will kill 200,000 people in the course of a morning? Let us suppose that the Government were to decide that this is going to be done by vote, by rota; and let us suppose that you get a letter to say that you are asked, indeed ordered, to go to a certain submarine base because in the course of the next week you may be called upon to launch the missile. Would you go? Would you launch it? What would you launch it for? Would it be to prove the superiority of the Christian West against atheist, communist Russia? Would this be the way in which we would move?
In the unlikely event of our so moving, and in the extremely unlikely event of our recognisably winning—because everyone now maintains that once you start, no one can win a nuclear war; or in the words of Martin Luther King, "It is either non-violence, or nonexistence"—can your Lordships imagine any young Russian suggesting for one moment that he would wish to join the Christian church, when the Christian church has been part and parcel of the organisation by which we killed 200,000 people in the course of a morning?
Or, my Lords, to leave the issue of peace and to raise

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the question of the morality of our worsening situation, let us go to the issue of plenitude, of the prosperity of the West against the poverty of the third world. Let us take the phrase "Thou shalt not covet", or take the phrase in its local sense. in a certain industry in this country where not long ago the smallest wage paid to anyone was £90 a week, employees went on strike for a 38 per cent. increase in their wages. The managing director of the firm said that, in the first place, they could not afford it and, in the second place, they might be able to afford 3·8 per cent. but not 38 per cent. This was the reply of the managing director. Unfortunately, a fortnight later, in another newspaper, the issue was made clear that his own salary had been put up from £20,000 a year to £40,000 a year—which looks rather like an increase of 100 per cent. So that it is no wonder that the trade unions do not care what managing directors say about patriotism and about our economic situation.
Or, on a more serious level in this question of the third world, do we grasp the extent to which some big businesses in this country do not want the Brandt Report to be fulfilled, do not want the third world to be made more prosperous, more self-supporting; do not want anything except that they, because of their poverty and our wealth, should be the place where we send our surplus goods? How many of the managing directors know that last year—and I have all the details here from UNICEF—17 million children under five died of starvation in the third world? If these big business men really knew that the alternative to re-creating the third world as going properties was 17 million children to die of starvation every year—and it is happening again this year—would they really go on asking that Brandt be disregarded? These facts are but a background to our common moral debility.
Finally, coming nearer to our subject, is there anything more appalling than the situation relating to, "Thou shalt not commit adultery"? It is not a matter of peace or of plenty but of purity or, alternatively, of permissiveness. What's the matter? A recent Times article in January of this year pointed out that of all the couples coming now to the altar to be married more than half indulged in sexual intercourse before marriage, and often, when their activities had gone wrong, they had gone in for abortion. Everyone knows that the height of joy is for a young married woman to see before her her first-born child and to rejoice that she is part of creation. But if you go to the other end of that kind of thought, the other end of the scale, what is the extent of the sadness when things have gone wrong and the necessity for abortion comes up?
This problem becomes numerically immense. I have not got the figures for this country but I have them for America; and in America last year there were 3,500,000 live births—wonderful consequences of beautiful marriages. But how many abortions would you think there were'' There were 4 million-4 million abortions in America in the course of one year. What does that amount to in cumulative sadness? What does that amount to in those who insist on taking drugs to forget about it? What does that amount to regarding the kind of violence that we were discussing in this House yesterday, as drugs were also being discussed? What is the appalling dimension of abortion in the present situation and, because of the frustration, the rape?
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How many of the people who are making easy money out of this kind of literature grasp the extent to which they are responsible for people getting so desperate that, to their own amazement, they find that they have committed rape?
This is the declension in our moral standards of what we have to take into account. What is the matter, my Lords? I can tell your Lordships very shortly what is the matter. It is not in the words of any theologian, it is in the words of the greatest scientist of this century, Einstein. There is no such thing as dead matter, Einstein said. He said the ultimate form of matter is light energy, as we all know. The ultimate form of matter is the atom. It is exciting news for the Christian, is it not? Christ who is the light of the world, not just the light of the Church; Christ who is the life of the world, not just the life of the individual converted soul.
Christ is in and through the whole material situation. There is no such thing as dead matter and therefore there is an end completely to spirituality on one side and materialism on the other. The two have been coming together. Religion is about bodies: "Thou shalt not commit adultery"; religion is about political bodies: "Thou shalt not steal land in the third world from the people in order that their children by the million may die".
This is the situation in an absurdly simple instance. It may be that you are alone in a house and you wake up one night with an unbelievable pain in your kneecap and you cannot get up and you cannot send for anybody; and then you go back to the Bible and you think, well, Christ sent his angels and his angels come and touch people and such people are healed. But that is not the truth since this scientist spoke. Like life, the atom is in and through the corpuscles of the kneecap. This is the new situation in which we find ourselves today.
Essentially, pornographic material should be abolished not because of prudery, not in defiance of freedom, but essentially to make a number of young people stop from drug-taking, stop from violence and crime and find the new life. One of the great assistances to the bad life is pornographic literature.
6.54 p.m.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I am going to be commendably short. The noble Lord, Lord Macleod of Fuinary, will forgive me if I do not follow him into the questions of nuclear explosions. I was under the impression that this debate was about the sex explosion, and I shall try and keep to that point.
I heard some of the debate yesterday on law and order—a subject on which I used to speak at one time. What saddened me was that I thought that the trouble with that debate was that we have closed the stable door too late, for the horse has gone. Ever since the war there has been a continual rise of promiscuity and pornography, and the permissive society has been to all intents and purposes unchecked. Plenty of your Lordships at the time, including myself, sounded these warnings again and again. But nothing was done about it. We now find ourselves in this permissive atmosphere, as my noble friend Lord Nugent brilliantly pointed out in his speech; I entirely agreed with every word of it. I apologise for not being able

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to hear the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, but I had to attend an appointment.
We heard in the debate yesterday of the deterrent effect of longer jail sentences and severer sentencing and that this will be put into effect. But it is a sad way to have to cure crime. One does not want an even vaster number of people being shut up. But, that has to be done in the case of violent criminals. How much better it would have been if we had taken this matter in hand earlier.
I think that sex education in schools was a bad idea. It would be far better for the family to deal with that. Regarding sex shops, I have seen the entrance to a sex shop but I have never entered one. I should have done so, bearing in mind that I am speaking in this debate. However, the entrance to the shop alone struck me as repulsive. Therefore, I am rather ignorant on this matter. It is not quite my line of country. But what is my line of country is that for years I have been sad—if that is the right word—at the decline in all our moral standards. In the 1930s—when I was very young—one could leave an unlocked parked car in London with suitcases in it. It would be very rare that anything would be taken. There was hardly any rape, and there were no muggings. There was some burglary with violence, but it was very rare. There was burglary, but it occurred far less than today.
I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, for whom I have a great admiration. He has a great knowledge of the law. He said the 1959 Act really covered everything in my noble friend's Bill. I spoke on the 1959 Act in this House several times. The fact is that the 1959 Act has not achieved what it set out to achieve. I should not be speaking on the law, but, in my experience, we have on the whole very good laws though they do not always achieve what they set out to achieve. One of the reasons is that we have some very clever lawyers who are able to convince juries that black is white. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, knows what I am driving at!
We missed our chance to control the permissive society after the war; but now, we have a comparatively new industry—sex shops—if one can call it an industry. To my mind, anyone who makes money out of sex, sex shops or pornography, hard or soft, is—and I use a hard word—scum. These people are absolute scum. We have a chance now, as this has only been going for eight or 10 years, and, if we could nip it in the bud, future generations might applaud us. But the money in it is so great and the trade is so profitable; and when you have big money behind anything you get powerful lobbies, and especially in another place. If we take betting shops—I bet myself but do not go into betting shops—I do not think that betting shops are a good thing because it is in the areas of highest unemployment that they thrive most and make the highest profits. However, I must not be sidetracked on that.
I think that the question of pornography in this country is very important. If I were a dictator—which I have no wish to be and I am perfectly certain I never could be one—I would ban organised pornography completely because if you half ban it, and have "hard porn" and "soft porn", it is difficult to achieve the control you want to achieve. It is very difficult legally
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to distinguish between hard and soft porn, and it can be easy for lawyers to twist the law a little. When I talk about "lawyers" I do not of course mean any Members of your Lordships' House, but I have met one or two lawyers who I thought should not be lawyers, or at the very least they were in the wrong profession.
I have spoken long enough but I should like once again to congratulate my noble friend on bringing forward this Bill. Of course, if you produce Bills of this kind you lay yourself open to ridicule because they cannot be argued against logically. We hear a lot of talk about the freedom of the individual, but after all you are not allowed to drive in a built-up area at 60 miles an hour—although of course the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, might say that the liberty of the subject is infringed because you cannot. Equally, you are not allowed to take hard drugs; and I could quote many other examples. So I do not go along with the argument that we are infringing the freedom or liberty of the subject. I will now sit down, and just congratulate my noble friend a third time on introducing this Bill.
7.3 p.m.
Lady Kinloss: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, is much to be congratulated on his endeavours to free our cities and towns of pornographic material and sex advertisements, which stare at one down so many streets. It is an insult to the human spirit and a degrading of women into mere toys. The trade is very much in evidence, and the sex shops scandal has raised a nationwide outcry. I have read that even where residents have protested the local authorities have allowed sex shops to open. Is this because the local authorities have not enough power, or feel they have not, to refuse them a licence?
In the last four years some legislation has been passed. For instance, as the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, has already mentioned, the Protection of Children Act 1978 has outlawed one of the worst varieties of obscene material—child pornography. Again, the Indecent Displays (Control) Act outlaws much of the display of offensively pornographic material. Perhaps when the noble Lord the Minister replies he could tell us how effective the new Acts have been.
It would seem that the 1959 Act is not as strong as it might be. I understand that magistrates frequently order confiscation and destruction of material—books, magazines, films and video tapes—but the retailers very quickly re-stock, as profits are so great and there are large supplies of the material. I wonder whether there is some way in which the authors, owners or distributors of the material could equally be penalised with the retailers. Surely until the sources of supply are cleared up as much as possible there will always be willing retailers. I should like to see an amending Act to strengthen the 1959 Act, perhaps by incorporating parts of the Bill which is before your Lordships' House this evening.
I should like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, on his most interesting maiden speech, and especially so as I have lived and travelled in many of the countries referred to—not only in Arabia but in Africa as well—and I agree with a great deal of what he has said. As it happens, I have a Tanzanian

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lawyer friend who, with his wife and baby son, is on his way home at this moment flying to Dar-es-Salaam. They are devout Christians and they found the pornographic material which is around offensive. They are also very concerned lest it should travel like some slow plague to their country.
There are one or two points I should like to make. Will Clause 1(1)(a) catch every business, great or small, which knowingly makes money out of pornography? For example, could a bookshop owner or newsagent with perhaps 5 per cent. of his stock consisting of pornographic material be considered to be running a business with the dissemination of pornography as "one of its objects", or could he not? For all the criticism that the 1959 Act has received, it was at least consistent and treated obscene material as morally wrong wherever it turned up, and anyone who had anything to do with it was made liable at law.
In 1973—nearly 10 years ago—the then Government received a nationwide petition for public decency. It bore more than 1½ million signatures. It asked for a strong, clear amendment to the obscenity law, and for broadcasting also to be made subject to it. As I understand it, nothing has been done. Surely one should be sensitive to 1 million signatures, whatever Government might be in power. However we decide to legislate on this subject, I very much hope that we shall give this Bill a Second Reading tonight.
7.7 p.m.
Viscount Barrington: My Lords, time is getting on and I am incapable of making a short speech. Therefore, I shall not try to make a speech at all but make just a few disjointed remarks. Of all the speeches I have heard, I agree with almost all of many of them, although there were a few things that I disagree with. Perhaps I might say to the noble Viscount, Lord Massereene and Ferrard, that the only thing I disagreed with in what he said is that pornography is a new industry. I should have thought it was one of the oldest industries in the world. Of course, it has always been with us and has always made a certain amount of money. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, pointed out very clearly in his excellent opening speech, it is now making money on a different kind of scale and in a different kind of way as compared with what has happened in the past.
As we know, in this day and age things move so much faster and further that we have to be quicker; and that is why I say that there was almost nothing I disagreed with in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, except that, although he admitted it was plain there was a flood of poison coming in, he said that if he were the Dutch boy who putting his finger into the hole—which is already rather larger than any finger—he thought it was too early to put it in. I think there is quite a probability that it is too late, but that is not a good reason for not putting in as many fingers as we can.
The fact is that this Bill is both a defensive and a militant Bill, trying to turn back what everybody agrees is a trend—according to the speeches in this House most people think it is a very unpleasant, dangerous and poisonous trend. It is trying to push a trend in the opposite direction. We may not win that battle, but I agree that it is worth doing if we can.
I thought that the maiden speech of the noble
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Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, was extraordinarily interesting—I do not know if he is still in his place. It was of great quality and dealt so very thoroughly with another religious point of view. Whether he was right in saying that the Islamic point of view had been put only once in this House, or had not been put before, I do not know. But he put it very clearly on the grounds that there are certain absolutely fixed standards, quite apart from the standards that are changing. A contrast, and in some ways a corrective, was the speech of the right reverend Prelate, who I was glad to hear will vote for the Bill and who, like everybody, has certain reservations which can be discussed in Committee. He made two very interesting points.
My only qualification for speaking here is that there have been innumerable debates on pornography, and I have taken part in most of them. This is the first time that something constructive has been put down. I tried to abbreviate my views about the position some time ago, in the form of a clerihew which went:
"The art of science or pornography,
Has something in common with geography.
Either is fine,
If one knows where to draw the line".
That is out of date in relation to this Bill, because we are not talking about pornography as an art or a science, but as an industry. So one would have to change that to something like:
"The science of publishing or disseminating pornography,
Is rather like publishing a biography.
Either is squalid or funny,
If it makes enough money".
That is one of the dangers. It is clearly one of the easiest ways of making money out of something, and I do not believe there has been a dissenting voice to the fact that it is the wrong way to do it.
I am always delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, because he speaks so well. I agree with him strongly on some things, but I disagree with him on this, as on abortion. The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, believes that it is a healthy thing not to sweep pornography under the carpet. But if you do not sweep it under the carpet, you spread it around and out into outer space. It is difficult to know what to do about it, and one has to keep a balance. Where I would differ from him is about the trend. The trend at the moment is still violently and strongly in the way of what is called liberalism and freedom—and I had better mention that, though I am speaking from the Liberal Benches, I am not speaking for them and it is understood that I am speaking entirely for myself—but one can overdo the idea of freedom for everyone necessarily being a good thing. That point was made clearly by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury. Freedom for one means lack of freedom for others.
People are apt to forget—and this arises on some other questions about the proper courts to decide these matters—that a trend is decided by every decision of a jury, after the advice of expert lawyers and judges. Nobody could have given a better unofficial judgment than the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice in his magnificent speech yesterday. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, for having read it in full, because it was most admirably put. A jury has to decide a case, and in doing that it is very often making law as well as obeying it.

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Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, I think that this House contains a certain number of younger people than the other place, though, in all modesty, I must say that we are not up to their political standards. But it contains a fairly mixed number of clever, stupid, good, bad and, I hope, well-meaning people. I think that we are as good a jury as any to discover a trend. That is why the sooner this Motion goes to the vote the better, because we shall be forming a trend.
As there has been a certain amount of quotation of verse in this House, I should like to conclude with a verse which is not my own. One that is my own is about changing standards and changing times, and whoever happens to own the standards or the times at the moment. The standards of battle have sometimes been changed by treason. Everybody remembers the definition by, I think, Sir John Harington:
"Treason can never prosper for this reason,
That when it prospers none dare call it treason".
I think one could say something like,
"Pornography cannot pay,
The trade or traffic.
Cannot, if it pays,
Be known as pornographic".
That is incidental. When something begins to succeed and goes on succeeding, people gradually come to accept it.
The verses I should like to read are from a very long poem. There are only four of them, so I guarantee that I shall keep within 10 minutes. They are by an Edwardian poet, and about an apparently losing cause a long time ago, when King Alfred happened, against all the odds, to win a battle against the Danes, who were represented in the poem as the threatening forces of destruction. Having won that battle, he was very much rebuked 20 years later by a young man who said "This is intolerable. The Danes are coming back. We have not defeated them for good". Alfred pointed to the White Horse, which was getting weeds on it and was abnormally scarred. The verses which I should like to read are these:
"Though I give this land to Our Lady
That helped me in Athelney,
Though lordlier trees and lustier sod
And happier hills has no man trod,
Than the garden of the Mother of God
Between Thame-side and the sea,
I know that weeds shall grow in it
Faster than men can burn,
And though they scatter now and go
In some far century sad and slow,
I have a vision and I know
The heathen shall return.
They shall not come with warships,
They shall not waste with brands,
But books be all their eating
And ink be on their hands.
But though they come with scrolls and pen
And grave as a shaven clerk
By this sign you shall know them,
That they ruin and make dark.
By thought a crawling ruin,
By life a leaping mire
By a broken heart in the breast of the world
And the end of the world's desire,
By God and man dishonoured By death and life made vain
Know we the old Barbarian,
The Barbarian come again ".
I would certainly not accuse the noble Lord, Lord
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Houghton, of being a barbarian, except in the best sense of the word. He has immense courage and conviction and is always capable of being converted. I hope that he will be converted, because I know he will get to heaven before I do.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I did not say that pornography was a new industry. I am not so foolish as that. What I said was that sex shops in this country were a comparatively new industry.
7.19 p.m.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, it is getting late and I do not intend to be very long. There is one point which the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, has raised yet again; that is, that it is only the elderly who are concerned with this subject. I have pointed out in your Lordships' House before that those of my generation, and even younger, are concerned with it. On this occasion, I have taken the trouble to look at Dod to see when the noble Lord was born, and I found that it would have been quite possible, with our age disparity, for him to have been my grandfather. So I am some way his junior.
I have been in touch with the Secondary Heads' Association, who for some time have been very concerned about the effect that pornography and obscenity are having on young children. As your Lordships will know, they deal with children from the age of 11 until the time they leave school. It is against the law to sell pornographic magazines and products to them, but it is not difficult for these children to get hold of them. The representative to whom I spoke, having questioned children who had been found in his own school with pornographic magazines, discovered that they had bought them quite freely at various shops. He did not tell me what shops, so I am not able to tell your Lordships. But it seems to me that this Bill is one of the best ways of attacking pornography at its source and so preventing it from getting into the hands of young people. In this respect, perhaps we should remember one of the lines from the Lord's Prayer:
"Lead us not into temptation"
If tempted, people will always fall. Some are better at resisting temptation than others. But the young are inexperienced and very much more easily persuaded to try something which is new and not necessarily right. I was shown by the representative of the Secondary Heads' Association what he considered to be the worst magazine that he had ever seen. It had been taken off a 12 year-old in his school and it was found that he had been able to buy it over the counter at a local shop. One of the things that the headmaster objected to was a list of contact addresses in the magazine so that children and young people could contact adults. They had to be adults in order to advertise in the magazine. Quite obviously, this left the children open to the serious danger of being ill-treated and led into ways of life in relation to sex which were not at all desirable. Another example was a 14 year-old girl who was found at school with a number of pornographic magazines. And—surprise, surprise—a few months later she was found to be pregnant. So there is in my mind a connection between the two: you read about it and you go out and practise it.

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One of the other things that appear in many of these magazines is not just sex in its various forms but photographs of violence and articles describing violence. I was told of a young boy who had had confiscated from him at school a number of pornographic magazines, in some instances depicting violence. Later on, at a disturbance which was filmed and shown on television, he was seen carrying a pickhelve, and was identified by this headmaster.
It may not be known to your Lordships, though it is probably known to my noble friend Lord Belstead, that at the London overseas mail office incoming mail is inspected by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and that the two most important things they are looking for are drugs and—this is growing very rapidly—obscene and pornographic literature and video films. I was there some months ago, and because I was already at that time interested in my nobls friend Lord Nugent's Bill I was shown parts of two films which they had confiscated and which they were investigating. I had imagined what blue films might he like, but I was taken completely by surprise by what I was shown. I was told that they were very mild indeed.
This material is considered, I think, by most of your Lordships to be detrimental to children and other young people, but what interested me was that the customs officers could opt out of the duty of examining video films, magazines and other pornographic literature. They did not have to take part in its examination. If they were willing to take part in its examination they were allowed to do so only for a very limited length of time; because it was considered to have a bad effect on them they could not go on doing it for very long. It might be that after some months they would go back to that duty but, again, it would be only for a very limited length of time.
With that in mind, and as I believe Her Majesty's Customs and Excise come under the Home Office, I hope my noble friend Lord Belstead will be able to support the Bill at this stage, even if he disagrees with the way in which it has been drafted, so that it can go through your Lordships' House, and on to other stages, and eventually be passed down to the other place. I hope your Lordships will support the Bill.
The Marquess of Tweeddale: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether the instances which he has given us of children and pornography do not provide a case more for the protection of children than for the wholesale banning of pornography for such adults as may want it?
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Marquess. I would agree that they provide a case for the protection of children, but I was also told that, where children had got into trouble with the police, it was very often found when the police went to their homes that quite a lot of pornographic material, in the way of magazines, was in the home, a number of the magazines illustrating violence as well as various forms of sexual deviation. And it is not necessarily kept away from the children. They have free access to it.
7.28 p.m.
Viscount Ingleby: My Lords, I should like to ask your Lordships two questions. The first one is: Do
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your Lordships think it just a coincidence that all the recent mass murderers in the United States have been readers of pornography? There was Charles Manson, who organised the killing of Sharon Tate; there was the Son of Sam, whose bed, when he was arrested, was found to be covered with pornographic material; there was Charles Whitman, who killed 13 people at the University of Texas at Austin before he could be stopped; there was Gacey—30 bodies were found hidden in his basement—and there was Speck, who killed eight nurses.
My other question, which I should like to address to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, is this: if the 1959 Act is adequate, then why was it necessary for the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice to say what he said yesterday?
7.29 p.m.
Lady Saltoun: My Lords, I should like to join with others in congratulating the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, on an interesting and learned maiden speech. I would wholeheartedly support his observation that right and wrong do not change with the times. They are the same for ever.
To turn to the Bill, Clause 1 is really the whole Bill. The other clauses are concerned with implementing Clause 1. In some cases they will need amending, particularly if the Bill is to apply to Scotland, which I very much hope will he the case. I think it is intended that it should do, but the legal machinery and the personnel who operate that machinery are quite different from those in England and Wales. For example, we do not have the public prosecutor but we have the procurator fiscal. Those problems can be dealt with at Committee stage.
The noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, who is not in his place at present, opposes this Bill on the grounds that it interferes with the freedom of the individual. May I respectfully remind him, when he reads Hansard, that on the question of the freedom of the individual to wear a seatbelt or not, he voted against that freedom. That freedom was giving freedom, possibly, to hurt oneself and not to injure others. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, mentioned the distinction between what is criminal and what is immoral. I would respectfully suggest that the boundaries between what is criminal and what is immoral or ethical might lie in whether an act is harmful to others or merely to oneself.
Public concern has increased in the past 20 years or so, particularly among parents, at the kind of books, magazines, photographs, films, records and, now, cassettes to which their offspring are being exposed. All over the country people are looking to Parliament to put paid to the proliferation of pornography. If your Lordships' House supports this Bill, I believe that it will earn the respect and gratitude of the vast majority of people in this country. I therefore give this Bill my wholehearted support.
7.32 p.m.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, two and a half minutes seems about par for the course at the moment, and I have every reason for hoping that is correct because I was due some time ago to go and propose the health of my niece, who is being married some

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little way from here. What can I say in two and a half minutes? I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, and the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury. How can I describe them in this connection? I might describe them, if we are to introduce classical language, as the great Castor and Pollux of the battle against pornography. It is a matter of tremendous joy for me to think that the torch which dropped from my palsied hands 10 years ago has been grabbed by these fresh, virile young figures. It is a wonderful thought that they have taken this on. I feel rather as Lord Randolph Churchill might have done had he lived to see Winston Churchill become Prime Minister. Randolph Churchill, it may be remembered, finished in a state of collapse and died in rather ignominious circumstances. But think how he would have felt at seeing Winston take over, and so I am very honoured to feel that I have helped with many others to pave the way.
The other day, the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, was kind enough to quote me as saying that if he had not existed it would have been necessary to invent him. At times I have felt that was true, and at other times I have felt it was not so true. I am still anxious to get off to this wedding reception, and therefore the idea of the noble Lord insisting on a Division when 20 out of 21 speakers, or whatever the number is, have already voted against him does get me down. But it is a free country and the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, is a great champion of freedom—at any rate, when it is appropriate to his purposes. If he does insist on a Division, I must remain and I must suffer. Christians are accustomed to suffering from Humanists and therefore we must take that medicine as we can.
The one point I should like to make is in regard to the speech made by my noble friend Lord Mishcon. It began, I thought, nobly and was pure alpha, but I think it would be necessary to vie with him in university language about the conclusion of his speech. But at least the opening was noble. My noble friend Lord Mishcon brought out very one important point, and for the record of this debate it should not be lost sight of. Clause 1(1) of the Bill states that it shall be an offence for a person:
"(a) to carry on in Great Britain a business having for its object, or one of its objects, the dissemination of pornography with a view to making profits".
That is a limited target. It is a more limited target than, for example, the one we attempted to assault in 1971–72 in our pornography inquiry. We were faced with the argument, and it was the most difficult argument facing me, of what would be have done with James Joyce's Ulysses if we had been in charge at the time of its publication. No one is going to produce an artistic, moral or social defence for pornographers. The noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, is in a rather unenterprising position because he says, "I do not care whether it is good or bad pornography—I have not seen it." If one is dealing with this subject, to make no effort to study it seems a rather unenterprising approach; but that is by the way.
I am simply saying that, in my opinion, this is a sensible move in the battle against pornography. The
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battle for pornography, one might say, will go on forever—but here at least we have isolated part of the evil, and a part that is totally indefensible. For that, and for many other reasons, I support the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford.
7.37 p.m.
The Duke of Norfolk: My Lords, I must apologise for not being here for the beginning of this debate, but I have been in Birmingham and was able to return only a few moments ago. There is no question but that this Bill has the will of the whole country—the overwhelming will of the whole country. It seeks to curb the vile trade that goes on of exploiting men's and women's sex and making money out of it, and so proliferating this subject endlessly. It has been said by many of your Lordships, and felt by everybody, that two terrible things result from pornography. One is the enormous increase in violence. Your Lordships heard the noble and learned Lord Chief Justice's excellent speech, and I need say no more. The second evil of pornography is that it is an assault on the family. The family is the central human unit and anything which assaults family life is something that does our country great harm. I have no hesitation in saying that I wholeheartedly support this Bill.
7.38 p.m.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge: My Lords, this Bill aims to deal with those who run the pornography trade and make money out of it. As indicated yesterday in the highly instructive speech made by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Lane, this is the right target. In his interesting speech today, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell, based his reservations on the need to legislate to make people good. This is not what this Bill aims to do. It aims to control a multimillion pound industry, and there is nothing particularly strange about that—it is a perfectly normal procedure.
May I presume to pick up the point raised by the noble Marquess, Lord Tweeddale, on the protection of children. As I understand it, the Protection of Children Act 1978 was not designed to protect children from reading pornography, but rather from being exploited in the making of pornography—a very different matter. I therefore believe that this Bill tackles the right target and, although I feel that it has room for some improvement in detail, I hope it is given a Second Reading today.
I would just like to say a few words on the points to which I believe further consideration might be given, possibly to improve the Bill. These lie in the definition of pornography in paragraphs (a) and (b) of Clause 1(2). As I see it, pornography has two main characteristics. First, it has an effect on the conduct of the consumer of the pornography by arousing lascivious appetites; secondly, like any other form of pollution, it causes disgust and offence. How does the Bill's definition meet these points? On the first point I think it does so well, with one qualification. That qualification concerns the word "gratify", which I believe will be very difficult to interpret in the courts, and I also feel that it may not convey quite the right idea. It is not the gratification of lascivious appetites that one fears but their stimulation and heightening. The danger of pornography is that it can stimulate or

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heighten sexual appetites to the point where they get out of control, and harm results, including harm to other people.
Mention was made in the right reverend Prelate's speech of the Williams Committee. Despite powerful evidence to the contrary, the Williams Committee was not convinced that there was a connection between pornography and its evil effects and crime. As a result, I feel this is where they started to go astray, because they thereby missed the essential evil in pornography; and this is why their report met with considerably less than unanimous approval in your Lordships' House, and I think in the other place, too. Commonsense dictates that pornography leads to misbehaviour, and the connection between pornography and crime was of course underlined yesterday by the Lord Chief Justice. It is therefore possible that some more emphasis might be put on this question of stimulating or heightening appetites. I know the word "arouse" is there, but some more emphasis might be put in place of the word "gratify".
Furthermore, I wonder whether the word "lascivious" brings out sufficiently the all-important cruelty ingredient of some pornography. It is not only the sexual element that needs to be considered. Latent evil in men can be stirred up by pornography also, in the form of cruelty and violence.
The Earl of Longford: My Lords, the noble Lord will forgive me for pointing this out—I do not want to take up time—but there is at the bottom of page 1, a reference to sadistic and masochistic practices.
Lord Robertson of Oakridge: I thank the noble Earl, Lord Longford, for that intervention. Indeed, that is quite right. I wonder whether it ought not to come in subsection (2)(a) as well, but I may well be open to correction there.
May I now deal with the second characteristic of pornography and how the definition deals with it. Here my reservation concerns the phrase "abuse of public tolerance". I fully see what is the aim of that phrase, but again it might be difficult to interpret. Surely under this heading the material which we want to control is the kind that is patently offensive and disgusting in the treatment of sexual conduct. I believe it ought to be possible so to phrase subsection (2)(b) as to bring in that thought.
Incidentally, I would like to say here how grateful I am sure we all are to the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, for his speech pointing out how offensive pornography is to some of our visitors, and I think this should cause us to pause quite appreciably for reflection. Because pornographic material can stimulate sexual appetites without necessarily being offensive, and I believe the reverse is certainly true, it is just possible that subsection (2)(a) and (b) might be made as alternatives rather than both "and".
My Lords, whatever the fate of this Bill, I am sure that we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, for emphasising the need for an overhaul of the obscenity laws. I hope we can look to the Government for early action, either in support of this Bill or in bringing out proposals of their own.
7.46 p.m.
Lord Milverton: My Lords, I rise to give support to my noble friend Lord Nugent. Lord Nugent has prepared this Bill in a very thorough and reasonable way. The voice of concern over the effect and influence of the dissemination of pornography needs every so often to be clearly heard, in fact has the right to be heard, to balance the arguments expressed as a result of opposing views.
The human body deserves to be treated with honour and human personalities demand a respect that credits every person with the ability to reach higher ways. The individual deserves to be given a respect and dignity which dissemination of pornography does not do. The latter in a subtle way entices the weak and easily led because it plays upon feelings and emotions which are basically healthy. The vulnerable need to be protected. People as a whole need to be reminded of the higher ideals and encouraged to live by them.
There is ample evidence from magazines and newspapers that this matter of the dissemination of pornography is a problem to be tackled, for what has been done previously is insufficient. I quote first of all from the Daily Telegraph of last Saturday:
"Pupils run gauntlet of Soho sex and violence.
"The headmaster of a Soho primary school which has a sex shop next door said yesterday that his pupils were confronted with pornography, sex shop touts, knife-carrying prostitutes and violence.
"A planning appeal heard that teachers had been approached for sex and that sometimes the police were called to get parents and children safely through football fans attracted to the red light area.
"The Rev. David Barton, head of St. James and St. Peter's Primary School in Great Windmill Street, said the 66 children, aged three to 11, could face difficulty coming to 'a balanced sexual attitude' later in life.
"He continued: 'Children do have some difficulty if they live in Soho coming to a balanced sexual attitude. So many of these places are sleazy, furtive and joyless' ".
It seems to me that it is a very poor influence for children to come across at an early age.
Also I will quote from "Making it Hot for Porn", from the American news magazine Newsweek of 25th May 1981:
"He's been called an over zealous prude, but Henson McAuliffe, 61 years old solicitor general of Georgia's Fulton County, has done a remarkable thing; in a 12 year, one man crusade, he has largely driven pornography out of Atlanta. The city's last 3 'triple X rated' movie houses closed last month and 19 adult bookstores shut their doors in January. Not a peep show, porn shop or X rated remains. 'It just wasn't worth it, economically or politically, to try to remain open', says Attorney Glenn Zell, who unsuccessfully defended dozens of theatres and book-store owners.
"McAuliffe's chief weapon has been a tough state anti-obscenity law patterned after a landmark 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision. In recent years McAuliffe has prosecuted so many porn brokers that the state courts set aside one week each month to hear the cases".
One has evidence, not surprisingly, that many people not only find pornography as a twisting or a distortion of what is basically good, but would welcome anything that helps to put asunder its dissemination. In the United States in Georgia, it has been shown that in Fulton County this can be done. This is shown to be so by a letter written to Mrs. Mary Whitehouse giving the details of how Fulton County in Georgia State has done it.
I should like to quote from the Family Bulletin

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which deals with an incident in Sheffield which shows that if one's mind and everything else is put towards that end we can overcome this problem. It says:
"On a wet Monday night (November 2nd), six hundred people packed into the Town Hall to hear the Mayor, Councillor Robert Finney, JP, several other Councillors, Labour and Conservative, Church Leaders of different denominations, business people, head-teachers, doctors and mothers all express their opposition to the shop in clear blunt terms. After the meeting, a St. Helens Action Group of 120 protesters was formed and set up headquarters at the YMCA Building. A petition, calling on Central and Local Government to take immediate action to control sex shops, was launched and over 17,000 signatures were collected within three weeks
It goes on to say:
"The Action Group decided to remain in being to continue the fight against pornography and other corrupting influences on the young".
We who are concerned over this subject are not killjoys. In fact, the reverse is true. We wish to enable people, especially young people, to discover the right values and the real joys in life. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, about the reasons for opposing the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, and I agree with the excellent way in which he defined "freedom". I also, with others, would like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, for his wonderful maiden address to us. In conclusion, I hope that this House will give a Second Reading to the Bill of my noble friend Lord Nugent of Guildford.
7.52 p.m.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, at this late hour there is little to add except that it is proper, I think, to record one's appreciation of a memorable maiden speech by the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, who I am happy to say is a distant relative of mine. I hope that it does not embarrass him to hear me say that. We heard a speech of sincerity with vivid mastery of language, bejewelled with the poetry of the desert. The noble Viscount focused on discipline, decorum, decency and dignity, which lie at the heart of our theme.
I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, is not in his place because I would like to have twitted him for performing in his best style: oscillating like a metronome—which way will be come down?—and finding, in a phrase he used before, but I think he pinched it from me, a difficulty for every solution. But he was admirably answered by my noble friend Lord Tranmire. There was the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, his bashful eye disguising good intent, rising at 84 to defend a murky commercial interest that thrives on the sale of sludge—and on what excuse? I hoped that we would have heard some clichés that we have not heard before. Not a bit of it. We heard all the old ones: "There is a case for public discussion"; "We need more research"; "We need scientific evidence"; "This involves curbs on individual freedoms"; "This involves the erosion of liberty of the subject", and so on. I thought that he would at least bring in his deceased wife's sister who appeared in previous debates. Then there was his great answer. vivid in its humility, to the
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Edinburgh University students. Apparently he said that he was the only man in step.
This is a Bill about shame. "Man", said Hippolytus, "is a beast when shame stands off from him". Shame leaves us by degrees and modesty, once banished, knows no return. Where there is no shame there is no honour. In our country it has been said that there is a general flavour of decay—nothing local, as you might say—but we live amid a nation crestfallen in a marathon of mediocrity. I believe that the theme of the Bill, which is really a small step in the recovery of decency, is telling the world outsideߞwhere the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, feels discussion is needed—that we have truths to tell; a faith to spread: interests to defend; families to protect; and a people to serve.
7.56 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, your Lordships may be reassured to know that I have not risen to add another winding-up speech to this debate, but merely to raise one matter which should not take me more than a couple of minutes. Although I slightly regret that I have not decided to make a winding-up speech, I must say that this has been one of the debates in your Lordships' House which connoisseurs for years to come will treasure and will mine for the nuggets which your Lordships have produced from time to time, sometimes inadvertently and sometimes not so. To respond to it would have been a very great pleasure indeed. But it is not for that reason that I want to rise; nor even to say that I think that, even with the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, the one case against this Bill has not been seriously put: the case that in fact we shall deal with this menace. I agree with noble Lords about that. We shall deal with the vile people who make such fortunes out of it; and I agree about that. But we shall deal with it better through liberty and freedom than we shall from laws which merely drive them further and further into corners and cause their making of money to be more successful. Why do they make money? They make money because they sell things which are against the law. There are two ways out of that impasse, and the other one has not been explored tonight.
The one thing that, I seriously want to do is to ask the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, not to divide the House on his amendment. I think that this House is getting more and more into a rather bad habit of denying Private Members' Bills a Second Reading. If never used to be the case. On the whole, as long as a Bill was reasonably sane and sensible and there was not an enormous body of opinion against its whole principle, we used to give Private Members' Bills a free run and amend them in Committee.
This is a serious Bill, well drafted, a pleasure to look at and a credit to the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, who has put it forward. I believe that the House should give it a Second Reading even though I am not, myself, in sympathy with its aims. I hope that we shall give it a Second Reading. I hope that we shall, therefore, take the opportunity of amending it in Committee, because I think that there are areas in which it can he amended. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, whom otherwise I support on this issue, will see fit to take that course on this occasion.
8 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead): My Lords, I follow others of your Lordships in beginning by congratulating my noble friend Lord Nugent on his initiative in introducing this Bill. I should also like to express my appreciation of the maiden speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster. After his career in the Foreign Service, the noble Viscount is well qualified to say how the standards of obscenity and decency in this country strike someone returning from abroad. In his speech the noble Viscount did exactly that, with considerable effect; it was a speech which made a very valuable contribution to the debate this evening.
I am aware of the sincere commitment of my noble friend Lord Nugent to the reform of the legislation in this highly contentious field. In his speech, with his characteristic clarity, my noble friend also painted a vivid backcloth to the Bill, of a multi-million pound industry which, in the last few years, has spread its tentacles far beyond central London. The motivation for this is simple: to make money by pushing ever further back the boundaries of respectability and decency.
Against this background of intense commercial pressure, those charged with enforcing the law—whatever form it may take—are bound to be faced with a difficult task. But, as my noble friend has pointed out, the present legislation—and I refer, of course, to the Obscene Publications Acts 1959 and 1964—is widely felt to he unsatisfactory. Therefore, I think it is necessary, as a brief preliminary to the consideration of my noble friend's Bill, to examine for a moment to what extent and why this is so.
My noble friend Lord Tranmire, who, of course, was in at the birth of the 1959 Act, was absloutely right to remind your Lordships that the:
"tendency to deprave and corrupt",
test in the 1959 Act has undoubtedly given rise to great difficulties of interpretation. But, real though the difficulties are, it is I think important to keep them in perspective. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, put the question of how the law operates fairly and clearly in the speech that he made. Even in the case of criminal proceedings under Section 2 of the 1959 Act, which are tried before a jury, the prosecuting authorities are very often successful. In 1980, for example, out of 118 persons proceeded against at the Crown Court for offences under the 1959 and 1964 Acts, 84 were found guilty, and the figure for 1979 was 35 found guilty out of 40 charged.
If one turns to forfeiture proceedings under Section 3 of the 1959 Act, one finds that the success rate is very high indeed. I understand that the Metropolitan Police estimate that forfeiture orders are made in 95 per cent. or more of the cases in which they bring Section 3 proceedings. It will give some idea of the quantity of material involved when I say that in 1981 the Metropolitan Police seized over 550,000 articles, and that excludes over 650,000 articles which were seized in one operation last September. Therefore, while it would be wrong to underestimate the difficulties posed by the interpretation of the:
"tendency to deprave and corrupt"
test—and I absolutely take that point from my noble
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friend Lord Tranmire, and others of your Lordships who have spoken in the same way—I think that it would be equally wrong to assume that as a result the Obscene Publications Acts are a dead letter.
A second difficulty, and one also to which my noble friend Lord Tranmire referred, is the existence in the present legislation of the so-called "public good" defence. This provides that publication of an obscene article is justified if it is found to be for the public good on account of its literary, artistic or scientific merit. At one time it was certainly the case that this defence was used to defend material which had no pretension to artisitic or literary merit, but I am advised that later decisions by the courts have greatly restricted the scope which this defence provides for evasion.
Having said that, it does not mean that we neither could nor should try to do anything to improve the situation. On the contrary, although the Government do not see a sufficient measure of agreement to make it practicable to embark on comprehensive legislation to implement the recommendations of the Williams Committee Report on Obscenity and Film Censorship, none the less, our policy is to concentrate on specific matters where there is a reasonable prospect of achieving practical results.
I heard, of course, the very important speech of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice in yesterday's debate, which included the noble and learned Lord's remarks about the effect of pornography on crime. It may indeed be the case—although I can produce no statistical evidence for this—that certain offences are accompanied by examples of behaviour of the sort about which the noble and learned Lord spoke. What we are doing is following the Indecent Displays (Control) Act, which went through the House in the last Session and for which, I just say to the noble Lady, Lady Kinloss, there are not yet any statistics because the Act came into effect only in October last year.
We are taking firm action now in our proposed controls over sex shops in the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and in the support which we are giving to the Cinematograph Bill, introduced by my honourable friend the Member for Fareham, Mr. Lloyd, to curb those aspects of the dissemination and exhibition of pornography which people find particularly offensive. Of course, there are already controls on the importation of obscene material. These are practical measures dealing with specific problems which can be expected to pay dividends.
My noble friend Lord Nugent has argued that this Bill is fully in keeping with the Government's approach, which I have just outlined, and that it avoids the pitfalls which would be associated with more thoroughgoing legislation. The intention of my noble friend's Bill—to restrict the dissemination of pornography—is one which the Government certainly support. Therefore, there can be no question of Government support for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton. I am bound to say, however, that we have some serious misgivings about the way in which this Bill tries to give effect to its intentions.
My noble friend very fairly drew attention to the principal difficulty presented by the Bill. Indeed, I

1127
think that it is a fundamental difficulty. It is the fact that it overlaps entirely with the existing legislation; quite apart from anything else, this distinguishes the Bill clearly from the other measures which I have just mentioned. Perhaps I may just illustrate the extent of this overlap by referring to the offences which are proposed in Clause 1.
Clause 1(1)(a) creates the offence of carrying on a business which has as an object the dissemination of pornography with a view to making profits. But such an activity can be penalised more directly—without any need to prove a commercial motive, but including a commercial motive if necessary—by the present legislation. Clause 1(1)(b) of the Bill creates an offence in connection with such a business of procuring the supply of pornography from domestic or foreign sources. Here again, this activity is already covered by existing legislation.
The third offence created by the Bill in Clause 1(1)(c) penalises possession for the purposes of such a business. Under the Obscene Publications Act 1959, as amended by the 1964 Act, it is already an offence to possess obscene articles for distribution for gain. So the overlap to which I have referred is total. This, I think, is more than a mere awkwardness. What it means in practice is that if the Bill becomes law, a person would be subject to two different and almost certainly conflicting sets of legal requirements in respect of the same activity. As the Metropolitan Police have put it to us, there would be dual legislation with two different definitions: one for "pornography", and one for "obscenity". I do not think this would be conducive to effective enforcement of the law, and that is what we all join together in wanting. I really am at a loss to see how this defect could be put right in Committee because the problem lies in the concept of the Bill.
My noble friend has argued, however, that the Bill would nevertheless be useful because it takes us away from the "tendency to deprave and corrupt" test. As I mentioned earlier, I agree that this test has certainly led to great difficulties of interpretation. I would be most eager to accept the definition of pornography in Clause 2 as a step in the right direction, but I fear that it is capable of widely differing interpretation and that it would create a great deal of work for the legal profession.
Indeed, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwell said that he thought the definition could amount to a complete prohibition. I would not go as far as that, although I confess I find it difficult to decide exactly what material would come within its compass. This is a view which is shared by the Metropolitan Police, who have told us that they envisage that their main difficulty would be in comprehending the meaning of "pornography", which they say appears to relate to material similar in nature, to that covered by the 1959 Act, but obviously not exactly the same.
My noble friend's intention—and I respect it absolutely—is that the definition in the Bill should cover hard pornography, but Clause 1(2)(a) on its own would cover a wider range of material than that. Finally I must, with respect, differ from my noble friend in the assessment of the scope of the Bill. It would go much
1128
wider than its target of the producer, the wholesaler, and the distributor.
There is little doubt that Clause 1(1)(a) of the Bill could equally well apply to the small retailer, the newsagent or the bookseller, and it would be a serious matter, bearing in mind what I have tried to say about the uncertainty of the definition of "pornography", for the Bill to range so wide. Because the Government support the intention of my noble friend, the Government are certainly not going to support Lord Houghton's amendment, but I know that my noble friend Lord Nugent will appreciate that it is not from any lack of sympathy with his objectives that I say that I cannot give the Bill the unqualified welcome which his efforts in bringing it forward undoubtedly deserve.
Lord Robbins: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether, existing legislation apart, he does not agree that the word "pornography" goes more to the point than the word "obscenity"?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, but one is still left with the difficulty of having to define accurately, and particularly in this case, if this Bill became law, of having two different definitions running in the law side by side.
8.14 p.m.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, first I should like to thank all who have taken part in this interesting debate and have supported my Bill. In particular, I should like to thank and congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, on his exceptional maiden speech, which we all enjoyed so much. This subject, noble Lords have observed on all sides, is an unattractive subject. One of the few compensations for debating it is the very nice people who take part in these debates. The real consolation both for me and, I hope, for them, is that at least the company is good even if the subject is unpleasant. I thank them very much indeed for the support they have given me.
I should like to take up a point that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has made. While I thank him for the kind things he said about the Bill and our efforts, I am not sure that I can agree with him that he has adequately defended the law as it now stands. He gave us the figures of the number of prosecutions which have gone to the Crown court under Section 2. But I took the figures of what is actually happening in central London. Their figures, in broad terms, are as I mentioned to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and I asked him a question about them. When they are considering a prosecution under the 1959 Act, they consult their own lawyers, and also have had to go to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
The result is that, when the cases are put before the legal experts, in only about 20 per cent. of cases are the police advised that they can go ahead under Section 2, which is trial at the Crown court before a jury. That surely throws a major doubt upon the effectiveness of the law now. After all, they are picking up cases which, believe me, are appalling. I shall have just one word to say to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, on that subject before I finish. If only one fifth of the cases are judged to have any prospect of success before a jury, that underlines the weakness of the law as it now stands.

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The noble Lord gave us some figures of the number of successful prosecutions out of the number taken, but, bearing in mind that the number taken to court is only one fifth of the total, that is not an impressive figure. Only about half of those, or rather less than half, are succeeding in central London, so this underlines the ineffectiveness of the law now. My noble friend Lord Belstead must know that the pornographers do not mind about fortfeiture. As the stock is taken out of the front door, new stock comes in through the back door. That is simply part of the trading expenses. It is no deterrent whatsoever.
I would strongly recommend to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, who is most thorough in his investigations in these matters, to ask the Metropolitan Police to give him a conducted tour so that he can see for himself what this material is like. Far from thinking that I have exaggerated what is there, he will think I have gravely understated how bad it is. It is absolutely appalling. I am sure he would agree when he had seen it that this material which really should be stopped.
The fact is—and I have put this to my noble friend Lord Belstead—that in these sex shops there is pornographic material which is in breach of the 1959 Act if any material ever could be: perverted sex, violent sex, every sort and kind of filth in pictures, and in cinemas—about half the sex shops have cinemas, hardly any of them licensed—showing material which must be gravely in breach. Why is no action taken? The police simply have not the strength to raid them more than four times a year each. The deterrents the owners get in fines and forfeitures are no deterrent at all. You really cannot say that the law is adequate when you get a result like that. Whilst our Bill may not be perfect—if it covers the same ground as the 1959 Act, of course it may not be to some extent, because the 1959 Act is not succeeding—I ask my noble friend to look at this again and take it back to his advisers in the Home Office, because the present situation is deeply unsatisfactory.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, that I was delighted to hear him declare his own deep distaste for this pornographic material. That does not surprise me, knowing his personal high integrity and honour. But, if he doubts the strength of the case that we have put to him today, I strongly urge him to pay a personal visit and see for himself. He would have no doubt at all then that here we have something which is really damaging the life of the nation, and we really have an obligation to take steps to try to beat it. I feel I have said enough, at this hour, by way of reply. I thank all noble Lords who have supported me and I hope the House will now give the Bill a Second Reading.
8.20 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, the most satisfactory conclusion to the debate would, I suggest, have been for the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, to withdraw the Bill and have regarded this as a day's debate on an important subject on which views have been expressed in all parts of the House. The Minister has indicated that the Bill cannot possibly make any satisfactory progress in further stages in this House. Without Government help, it can get nowhere, and the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, indicated the difficulties in putting the Bill in proper shape to make it a likely piece
1130
of legislation. Thus, this is really a demonstration and is not practical business. We are not embarking on legislation, we are just registering something; and the difficulty is that if the Bill is not withdrawn, I and possibly others who do not feel able to support the measure in its present form, will have no means of expressing our view except by pursuing the matter to a conclusion.
I do not feel able, with great respect, to withdraw my amendment, since the Motion for the Second Reading of the Bill still stands. I am sure the commonsense of the matter lies in the amendment; there is no business to be done on the Motion. The amendment, it seems to me, would give the Bill proper attention and respect. It is not worthwhile the House spending further time in Committee, on Report and on the remaining stages of the Bill in trying to shape into any acceptable form what is clearly an inconvenient and indeed unworkable vehicle for achieving the purpose the sponsor of the measure has in mind.
I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, is not being practical. He is really looking for a demonstration of general support. The Minister has the message, having sat throughout the debate—what long debates he has to sit through. The Minister listened attentively to all that has happened, so the message is there. For us to go on pretending that we are doing business when we are not seems to me to be undesirable. I regret, therefore, that I cannot withdraw my amendment.
On Question, amendment negatived.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Naphill: Proposed Underground Operations Centre
8.23 p.m.
Lord Brockway Lord Brockway rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider their intention to establish a bunker at Naphill, Buckinghamshire, on National Trust land.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for initiating this debate. The proposed bunker at Naphill—or "operations centre", as the Ministry prefers—is not an isolated or incidental nuclear project. The Ministry itself says that it is probably the most important construction for many years. It is part of a massive co-ordination at High Wycombe of the headquarters of not only British but American and NATO defence. Indeed, it is not too much to say that this picturesque town in the valley of the Chilterns will be the defence centre for Britain and a large part of Europe if war occurs.
High Wycombe already contains, first, the United States Air Force station at Daws Hill for programming cruise missiles in the United Kingdom and, secondly, the RAF headquarters of Strike Command for the United Kingdom. And now there is this project at Naphill, which will be the communications and command and control centre for all RAF forces in the United Kingdom and, in addition, the co-ordination centre for NATO air forces in Europe, except in West Germany. If one were concerned about one's own life, High Wycombe would be the last place in which to

1131
choose to live. The town would be the first object of a precision attack in a nuclear war, as was recognised by the recent Operation Square Leg, which described High Wycombe in its rehearsal of the war as the most devastated place in Britain.
I propose to criticise the construction of the bunker at Naphill on two grounds, the first environmental and the second political. On environmental grounds, I have received letters of support from the influential Chilterns Society, representing over 20,000 residents in the Chiltern Hills; from the Eastern Regional Council of the Youth Hostels Association, whose members particularly enjoy the Chilterns; and, on both environmental and political grounds, support from the very representative High Wycombe Peace Council.
I take, first, the environmental case. The bunker is to be on land, first, designated as an area of outstanding beauty; secondly, in the green belt; and, thirdly, on land owned by the National Trust, a three-fold protection. In a letter to Sir Ian Gilmour, MP, dated 23rd December, Mr. John Nott, Minister for Defence recognised:
"The National Trust has the primary duty to keep unspoilt for the benefit of the public the areas of the countryside which it has acquired".
I believe that there is now some controversy between the National Trust and the Ministry of Defence about that priority of beauty, but I shall not disrupt the main purpose of my speech by dwelling on it.
Naphill lies in the Chilterns among the most beautiful wooded hills of beechwood in Britain, with rare trees of scientific value, and with historic sites. I want to acknowledge that the Government have endeavoured to minimise the disturbing effects of the construction of the bunker on the countryside. But having visited the area several times, spoken to many residents in the neighbourhood, and discussed the effects of the bunker with experts on natural preservation, I am convinced that the Government's efforts are not, and cannot be, enough. I have lived in the Chilterns. I love them—the beeches and the carpet of bluebells underneath. I feel hurt that the Chilterns are now being raped in the preparations for nuclear war: On the one side the deep shelter for higher civil servants; on the other side the project which we are discussing.
I do not want to generalise. I want the House to consider two facts which illustrate how the Chilterns will be spoiled. Take first the mountain of earth which will arch the bunker. The mound will be 150 metres square and 30 feet high. It will not be just a mound. It will have four large concrete entrances, four aluminium ventilators, and evaporative coolers covered by a grille. It will be an elabourate construction. It will be enclosed by 11 acres, surrounded by two security fences more than six feet high, with blazing security lights north and south. Such a construction would be a blot on any countryside; it would be a scar on this beauty spot in the Chilterns.
It is said that the bunker will not be visible. I have walked down a public footpath along the edge of the site and I have motored down Smalldene Lane beyond, and the site is clearly visible from both places. The security lights would be visible for miles around. This structural invasion of the quite countryside, the
1132
technique of concrete, brick and stone, will do something more than blacken beauty. May I say it?—it will be a blow to spiritual experience, destroying the withdrawn sanctity of the Chilterns, revered by many who seek their mystical retreat. The chalk and soil extracted to construct the bunker will be spread over meadows of 25 acres. The grass will be covered by the rubble which will be a metre high, obliterating the hedges. The excavation might last four years at a minimum, and even 10 years, and there will be ugly deformation all that time.
The second point that I want to make is that there is to be a road to the bunker. It was at first proposed that the 40 to 50 lorries should pass through the lovely village of Bradenham, but local protest was so strong that it was decided to construct a new road bursting through Parkwood on the hilltop, down the deep descent of green meadows to Saunderton in the valley. I have stood there and pictured both the deep excavation that the road would require and how, when completed, it would destroy the harmonious symmetry of the valley of Bradenham.
But more than that, my Lords. Cutting through the trees above the meadowland would mean the destruction of one of the best features of Chiltern beechwood, of that wonderful avenue of trees. To slash them would be not only to stab beauty, but to commit a biological crime. The beeches are described by the National Trust as forming a "site of special scientific interest". They are in several features quite unique.
There is a further scientific objection. The road will cut Grim's Dyke, a prehistoric earth work, an ancient monument of the Iron Age, which runs for several miles through the Chilterns. To burst it would be an historical outrage, equivalent to destroying the continuity of Hadrian's Wall in the North of England.
I have spoken at some length, but I must mention a newly-exposed danger to the woodland surrounding the bunker, of which I heard only this week. Anthropological experts have approached the National Trust in these last few days to alert them to this danger. The building of the bunker will involve a very deep excavation, open for several years while the installation is completed. The wide hole in the earth, 150 metres square, will have to be kept drained of water by pumping. Water will stream in from the surrounding land—chalk soil capped with clay. Inevitably, this will have a serious effect on the neighbouring woodland. The withdrawal of water from the roots of these unique beech trees over a long period—four years, perhaps 10 years—will kill tree after tree. I ask the Ministry of Defence to look seriously at this problem with the National Trust. The Chiltern beeches must not be destroyed.
My Lords, the National Trust has given provisional consent to the application of the Ministry—provisional because the negotiations are still continuing. Its officials have expressed surprise that the Ministry is already building approaches to the mound when no final agreement has been reached. Perhaps the Minister, in replying, will explain.
My Lords, that is the environmental case. Now the political. I can be brief, because the political objection, though controversial, is simple and clear, though fundamental. The political objection is that mankind cannot live with nuclear weapons which could destroy

1133
all life on earth. The proposed lease is for 99 years. By then we will all be dead, or nuclear weapons will be dead.
The Labour Party and the conference of the Liberal Party have declared against the retention of nuclear weapons and American bases in this country. At least 150 regional and local councils, including all of Wales, representing four-fifths of the population of Britain, have declared themselves nuclear-free zones. This attitude is sweeping the world. Canada, much of Latin America, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Spain, Greece and India have banned nuclear weapons on their soil. The Peace Movement in Europe, including West Germany, is stronger even than here. In America, the campaign to freeze armed forces has the support of 135 representatives in Congress, and a surprisingly large number of important towns as well as rural areas. The movement in the world is so strong, growing every day, that I am confident that the future, perhaps within a decade, will see the abolition of nuclear weapons.
I have already protested against the expenditure of millions on Trident when it is practically certain that there will be a majority in the next Parliament against its retention. I add a protest against the estimated expenditure of £300 million on the bunker at Naphill—the figure will almost certainly become greater—possible only by a NATO contribution for its participation. I should like to ask the Minister whether he can say how much the NATO contribution is to be. It will be wasted money if in the next Parliament we have a Labour Government supported by others from the present Opposition. On these grounds I appeal to the Government to reconsider their plan to build the bunker. I appeal to the National Trust, in accordance with its prime duty to preserve natural beauty, not to surrender this beloved heart of the Chilterns.
8.47 p.m.
Lord Gibson: My Lords, I propose to deal only with the environmental side of the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. If he is right in his belief that the Chilterns are being raped, for whatever purpose, then the National Trust would be derelict in its duty in not opposing to the utmost any proposal which would have that effect. There are three Members of your Lordships' House here tonight who are connected with the National Trust: Lord Esher, who is in his place and is down to speak, is chairman of the region of the National Trust in which this land lies; Lord Bishopston, who is a member of the executive committee; and myself, who am chairman of the National Trust.
I think it would be appropriate for me to leave the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, to describe to your Lordships the particular circumstances of this case, and the proposal. He, as it falls in his region, has dealt with it in detail and knows it well—much better than I do—and it would be merely duplicating matters if I were to deal with that aspect of it. I want only, therefore, to explain to your Lordships how the National Trust deals with applications in general for the use of inalienable land, because the implication here is that the National Trust is failing in its duty to protect what has been entrusted inalienably to its charge.
The question is being not unreasonably asked: Why
1134
does not the National Trust defend, at least by insisting on a public inquiry and, if necessary, by fighting all the way to Parliament, any attack on its inalienable land and any proposal to build on or in any way to change the character of the land it has undertaken to protect? As your Lordships know, the power to hold land for ever, subject only to the will of Parliament —that is to say, inalienability—is an asset uniquely conferred on the trust by Parliament, and it is an asset which gives confidence to donors and is the basis of the trust's whole existence. We therefore guard it most carefully.
It is inevitable that the trust, as the owner of some 450,000 acres, most of which have been declared inalienable, recieves a large number of requests to make bits of this land available for public purposes such as road widening, new roads, reservoirs, extensions to school buildings and hospital buildings, the erection of television masts, pylons, sewage works and so on. Our first reaction is always to say, No, and to insist on a search for another site, not on trust land, and indeed to find some other solution. If some major change is proposed, altering the whole character of the land, we have always resisted the proposal and, if need be, have fought it through a public inquiry all the way to Parliament.
That is precisely what the trust has done, for example, at Ennerdale and Wastwater, where we fought a proposal by British Nuclear Fuels and the North-West Water Authority to take water from both of those lakes and thus change the appearance of the shores and the valley. We fought it at a public inquiry, at great expense incidentally, and we won; and the Secretary of State accepted his inspector's recommendation which supported our stand. In Saltram, on the other hand, we fought a proposal to take the Plymouth by-pass through the park. We fought that all the way to Parliament and, to our regret, we lost. Some years ago we fought a proposal from Bristol University to take Rainbow Wood Farm on the edge of Bath, for playing fields—no harm in playing fields but it changed the character of the land and we took that to a public inquiry, and we won.
I give these examples to show that acquiescence in the use of our land for a purpose which will change its character is normally resisted to the utmost degree. But there must be occasions when either there is no alternative or when the alternative would have an even worse effect on the landscape than the use of the trust's land. In such a case, what does the trust do? What it does not do, and should not do and is not capable of doing, is to attempt to make a judgment about the public purpose for which the public body requires it. It simply considers the effect of the proposal on the landscape, its likely damage to architectural, historical or natural history interests and any other loss of public benefit. If it considers that such damage is either non-existent or minimal then it acquiesces; and one reason for doing so is that it can then often secure improvements to the proposals (from a landscape or other amenity aspect) which might not otherwise be achievable.
As an example of proposals that we have agreed to, I might cite, for instance, an extension to a state school at Cotehele, which is on inalienable land, and the building of a sewage works there. In both cases it was

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felt that building on trust land was the best solution and that no real public benefit would have been lost. Similarly, at Cliveden, we have on a number of occasions allowed the Canadian Red Cross Memorial Hospital to build extensions on our inalienable land where we have considered that such extensions would do no environmental harm.
I hope that I have said enough to show that the trust is far from being compliant when its inalienable land is wanted for a public purpose. But if it is satisfied either that there is no alternative solution or that the proposed solution is actually the least damaging one on environmental grounds, then provided that it is satisfied that the damage to the land would be minimal and the loss of public benefit is non-existent it will be prepared to grant a lease and to use its influence, as in this case, to try to improve the appearance of the development and to lessen the inconvenience to the public during the construction period. Such is our general approach to the protection of inalienable land; and I believe that any other would render the whole concept of inalienability unsustainable in a changing world.
I have not attempted to defend the trust myself against the charge of being wrong in this particular case. I will leave that to the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, who is closely familiar with it. What I have tried to do is to tell your Lordships how we normally operate and, against that background, I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, will tell us what he feels about Bradenham and Naphill.
8.54 p.m.
Viscount Esher: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, has explained, I have been closely involved with this proposal for the last two or three years. I have lived in the Chilterns all my life, I know the valley intimately and I think it is my duty to do what I can to reassure your Lordships. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has raised this matter in your Lordships' House. None of us likes it. It has been an extremely difficult exercise for those of us concerned and I need hardly say that we have only taken the position that we have in the National Trust for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, has suggested—namely, that any alternative would almost certainly be worse.
Perhaps I may go hack over the history. Bradenham Manor was bequeathed to the Trust in 1956 with well over 1,000 acres of the valley in which it stands and the little hamlet around it. At that time, in 1956, the RAF High Wycombe headquarters had long since been established on the northern edge of the valley. It had been there since before the last war. The Bradenham Valley is on the north-west fringe of High Wycombe. It is a wide, straight, spacious valley, by no means without blemishes. Unquestionably, the most attractive thing about the valley is the hamlet of Bradenham on its wide green, with its generous 17th-century manor house overlooking it and with its backcloth of beeches and the farmland in which it lies.
Because of the backcloth of woods, no one in the Bradenham Valley could be aware of the very large RAF installation which lies on the plateau behind the beech woods and above the valley. You reach the RAF headquarters either along a suburban road
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out of High Wycombe, coming from the east, or you can climb through the little hamlet of Bradenham, up through the woods and arrive from the valley below.
When this proposal first reached us we all hoped the thing could be done on the Ministry of Defence land, adjacent to their existing installation. We have had to recognise that this could not be done. We have also had to recognise that there is, within the short distance in which we have to deal, no sensible alternative. The only physically possible alternative would have been to put the bunker a little further east on the far side of the road through Naphill through which most people reach the headquarters. The defence authorities were most reluctant to do this. Indeed, I doubt whether they would have considered it possible either physically or from the security point of view. But, even if they had agreed to move the bunker across the road to the east, it would, in the opinion of all who have been over the site, have been a worse solution from the point of view of the landscape. So, finally, we have been obliged to accept that, if it is to be built at all, it cannot be built elsewhere. The site is a flat field, screened by woods, with belts of trees on all sides. As I have already said, it is completely invisible from the landscape for which we are the trustees. On the built-up side of the site it sits back a considerable distance from the road. It can only be reached across Grim's Ditch.
The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, made a feature of Grim's Ditch. It was breached in a perfectly thoughtless way by the service authorities before the war, and in that area there is not an awful lot left of it. From that side the site sits way back and there must be few people who pass along the Naphill Road who are aware of its existence. Wherever it is necessary, the Ministry of Defence will thicken up the planting around the site. It is important that they should because the trees that exist, although very solid and substantial, will not live for ever and we have to take care of a future situation in which the woods might themselves begin to die back and new planting would be needed to take their place.
It is impossible for any of us to speak up in favour of this plateau about the Chilterns. It is a great pity that this great headquarters ever went there, but there they are. Our job, confronted with the realities of the situation, has been to see whether we can accept it and whether it will affect the landscape for which we are responsible. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that the most difficult aspect of the problem has been how to reach the site, mainly with construction traffic. It is construction traffic which is going to dominate the scene for the next three or four years. It was the Ministry's original intention to use the little road that I mentioned earlier up through Bradenham. It was not just local opinion that caused us to reject this solution; it was the firm view of the trust that we could not accept this traffic through that quiet village, so we had to search for alternatives.
We have looked at six different roads up from the valley, and I have walked the length of all of them. Perhaps I should mention, incidentally, that what one might think the obvious access, which is from the back from the Naphill Road, is even more unacceptable. This is not only for reasons of gradients—there is a

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very steep rise out of Wycombe—but it would bring traffic right through the heart of High Wycombe and it would cause an immense amount of ill-feeling among residents of that area who would have to put up with it. That is why we felt that we must find a temporary route to enable the site to be reached which would avoid the village of Bradenham and disturbance and the real impracticability of reaching the site from the east.
The route which we think best and which the PSA, acting for the Ministry, have agreed to accept at considerable cost, will involve no excavation. It will go across a flat field, enter a wood on the line of an existing driftway and the whole of its woodland section will follow an existing track. Probably, the existing track is not wide enough everywhere. A certain number of trees will no doubt have to he felled to make it wide enough. It will be a useful road to us eventually, but not of course the kind of concrete track that construction traffic has to have. We have included among the conditions on which we have insisted that all the concrete will be removed, that the whole length of the road will be restored to its existing character and that any new planting that may be necessary to replace any trees that need to be felled, will of course be carried out. I can say without hesitation that at the end of the exercise—and we do not know when this will be; it may be 10 years—no one will know that that road ever existed, and no one from the Bradenham Valley will notice any difference in the landscape for which the National Trust is responsible.
The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, mentioned one or two other recent factors which have been brought to his notice on which I cannot comment with complete authority but with which I think I ought to deal as best I can. He mentioned lighting. It would be highly objectionable to the trust if this bunker were brilliantly lit all through the night, particularly as it stands so high above the landscape. We have been assured that there will be no lighting of the bunker except in an emergency—whatever that may mean. I hope that the noble Viscount, when he replies to this debate, will be able to confirm that assurance.
The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, also mentioned water and the possible effect of the deep hole on the trees around. The water table on the site I am told is 40 feet below the level of the ground. I am assured that there is no danger of any risk to the surrounding woodlands. I am glad that the noble Lord has brought this matter to the attention of your Lordships because we ought to look at it carefully before we finally agree to the proposals that I am describing. If there is any thought that this could affect the surrounding woodlands, then the trust would he most reluctant to accept the project.
I have mentioned Grim's Ditch, but I ought to make it clear, since the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, suggested that access to the site would involve the breaching of Grim's Ditch, that one of the purposes of the new access up from the valley was precisely to avoid doing that. Grim's Ditch is on the east of the site and the new road will come up from the west. There will he no question of any further damage to this prehistoric monument.
I think really I can only say that all of us who have been in the field of conservation all our lives would dearly love this project to go away. The National
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Trust depends totally on public goodwill, and we are not at all happy about the correspondence, the press reports and the criticism that we have received in connection with our willingness to negotiate on this project. But the fact is that one can very often secure better terms through negotiation than one can by out-and-out resistance.
Some of our friends—notably the Children's Society, which the noble Lord has mentioned, and of which I happen to be president—take the absolutist position that no project which involves a major land use should he permitted in an area of outstanding natural beauty, or in a green belt or indeed in the Chilterns. Of course, that has never been the understanding of most people of the use of these areas. Existing institutions, installations and uses have to change and grow, like the hospital mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, and this is simply the inevitable growth of a military installation.
I personally have never been particularly enthusiastic about the classification of our landscape in terms of its aesthetic beauty which has been so much the thing since the war. In Scotland where, so far as I know, nobody goes in for such classification, the conservation of the Scottish landscape has worked as well as, if not better than, our conservation of our English and Welsh landscapes. I believe personally that every acre of these islands is equally important and equally precious, and that what really matters is that we should do what has to be done as well as we can possibly do it. I have been involved in these discussions wholly with that end in view. I honestly believe that the solution we are going to reach will be a solution which the conservation interests, when they eventually see the result, will feel is right. Only if we do it in this way would I personally have anything to do with these negotiations.
9.11 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I should like, if I may, to add a postscript to what my noble friend has said and perhaps I might mention to my noble friend Lord Peart that although my name is not on the list it was given some time ahead, and I think it might be appropriate if I were to say what little I have to say before the two Front Bench speakers wind up.
I find myself in the position of having to begin with an apology. They say you should never do that, but must apologise to my noble friend for having missed the beginning of his remarks. I also feel a little reluctant to speak in a different sense from the two noble Lords who have just spoken, both of whom I warmly respect and at least one of whom I count as a friend, although I must not call him that in this Chamber—I and refer of course to the noble Lord, Lord Gibson. I find myself having to take a different view from that which they have so eloquently placed before your Lordships.
It would be idle to pretend that I would take the view quite so surely and certainly as I do were it not for the nature of what is proposed to be built in this place. For example, if it was proposed to erect a cathedral there I think I might find myself, although that might be a greater infringement on the landscape, better disposed towards it. But here we have something proposed which is offensive to many people.
There is one environmental point I should like to

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make before saying a few words about other matters: I do not think enough has been said about the time involved in this development. The period is somewhere between four and 10 years. If what we were concerned about here was something which could appear overnight, as it were, I think there would be less objection because the objection is not only to the final result but to the long process of disruption which will take place while the whole massive erection is being brought about. I understand there will be some 30 to 50 lorries a day trundling around these narrow roads. There will be a reservoir to be developed quite nearby in order to provide sufficient water; and there will be more disruption and upset with that development. So that if I were living there and if I were about 60—which I wish I was—it would be small consolation to me to know that in 10 years' time, when I would have reached 70, everything would be all right, especially when what would be "all right" would be the fact that my area had become a prime target in the event of nuclear war. I would find myself unable to survey this development with the kind of equanimity which seems to have overcome the National Trust.
Nevertheless, I should like to make it clear that the point I am making is not to the National Trust, but rather to the Government, because the Government's responsibilities spread wider than those of the National Trust. The National Trust is, of course, an admirable body carrying out the duties it discharges extraordinarily well, on the whole, looking after the beauteous land which we are privileged to inhabit. But the Government have greater responsibilities. Here they are concerned not only with that aspect of the matter but with what they are actually putting on the site.
It is rather remarkable that in that area the Government are proposing to spend £300 million on creating a safe retreat—I do not think it is safe, and I doubt whether anything is very safe, but it is supposedly safe—in the event of nuclear war for the Royal Air Force Strike Command, while, at the same time, the local district council is spending £300 on civil defence. This is the situation that we are getting into. More and more money is being spent to provide a spurious protection for fewer and fewer people. So far as most of the population are concerned, the Government do nothing whatever for them.
They admit that in a nuclear war no effective civil defence can be provided for the mass of the population. So while people outside are exposed to anything that may happen to them, those who are responsible for carrying out our part of a nuclear programme are themselves provided with some semblance of security. It seems to be a very peculiar situation, and I wonder whether the Government feel at all comfortable about it.
The other point that I want to make is that this area will become a prime target in the event of nuclear war. But ideas of nuclear war are changing things and I wonder whether the Government are wise to go in for capital development of this size. I can only doubt the efficacy of underground command centres. I have some slight knowledge of these, because I worked in one during the last war. I was for some time at the headquarters of 12 Group Fighter Command and we did not attempt to bury ourselves then. I gravely
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doubt whether it is more sensible for command headquarters to try to bury themselves in the nuclear age.
This is, therefore, a waste of money, in its own smaller way, of the same order as the colossal waste of money of the Government on Trident. These huge capital developments are likely to be overtaken by events—even, possibly, changed or disposed of by a future Government—and the Government should ask them-selves whether capital developments of this order are a sensible way of spending money, which could reasonably be spent much better on hospitals, schools, housing and even on the forces themselves, by the development of a reasonable conventional defence for this country, which is the only kind of defence that the people can survive. So I say that, altogether, this seems to me to be a thoroughly undesirable project, and I echo the words of my noble friend in hoping that, as a result of this debate, the Government may look again at the entire matter.
9.18 p.m.
Lord Peart: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Brockway, who raised this Question. The subject is one of importance, and I well understand his views on the beauty of this area of land, which we know. As an agriculture Minister, I was naturally very much involved in this. I also felt rather nostalgic at the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, when he talked about Ennerdale in my old constituency, which is one of the most beautiful constituencies in the whole of the British Isles, even though it is called Workington.
But the subject is one of importance and my noble friend has very clearly given the reasons for his concern. The subject has several aspects. The noble Lord, Lord Gibson, who is chairman of the National Trust, has given the National Trust's view, as has the noble Viscount, Lord Esher. The factors of interest include the right of public access to the land. There are the conservation aspects which have been questioned. The National Trust, though, is a public body which cares for the land entrusted to it. That is an important factor when a decision has to be made. The noble Lord, Lord Gibson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, have spoken for it.
My noble friend Lord Brockway has raised a number of defence aspects. I do not need to go over his case—he always puts it so well and so clearly—for the Ministry of Defence now to reconsider its policy. There is unanimity in the Chamber on this. The views of my party relating to the concern it feels about the effectiveness of Government defence policy are well known. The National Trust or any other body, though, must decide the merits of applications for the use of their land. It is for the Minister to put the Government's case for its use.
We are grateful to my noble friend for airing the subject at this time. I hope that my noble friend can have the assurances from the Minister which he now seeks. I hope we shall have a positive reply and that the Government will agree that my noble friend has proved his case for another look at this matter.
9.21 p.m.
Viscount Long: My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, and to the

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noble Viscount, Lord Esher, both from the National Trust, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, and the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. In fact, the team is set. It is now for me, at this late hour, to try to put the situation together as best I can.
There is considerable misunderstanding about the plans of the Royal Air Force at RAF High Wycombe. I therefore propose to give noble Lords a full account of what we have in mind and to correct a number of the more glaring misconceptions which have been expressed this evening by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway.
RAF High Wycombe is the home of two headquarters: a national—that is, United Kingdom—headquarters which noble Lords will know as RAF Strike Command, and a NATO headquarters, Headquarters United Kingdom Air Forces. The Commander-in-Chief of RAF Strike Command wears two hats: he is both a national and a NATO commander. But in both capacities he has a single, prime responsibility: to command and control the air defences of the United Kingdom. This entails the command and control of a wide and complex range of air and ground forces, such as the air defence fighter squadrons (currently the Lightnings and Phantoms), airborne early warning aircraft and the chain of ground radar installations which would detect any enemy attack on the United Kingdom.
This demanding task is currently carried out from the underground operations centre at RAF High Wycombe. However, this centre, which was completed over 40 years ago (and was used, as noble Lords will remember, by "Bomber" Harris throughout the Second Word War), is now inadequate for modern operational needs. It is no longer capable of properly housing the service operational staffs—I stress "service operational staffs", as there appears to be some confusion about the personnel for whose protection the new operations centre is being built—and the complex communications and computer systems required to ensure efficient command and control of the forces available to the NATO Commander United Kingdom Air Forces.
It is essential that a new underground operations and communications centre should be built at the Holly-bush Farm site to replace the current outdated centre. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence is therefore convinced of the need for this important building project to go ahead. The new centre will be a crucial element in the air defence of the United Kingdom and there is no intention of cancelling it. The new centre will be built underground in order to enable it to continue to operate under war conditions.
There is nothing sinister about building this operations and communications centre underground. On the contrary, it is a sensible decision, which can only enhance the ability to defend ourselves from attack. It is the most practical and effective way of achieving protection for those who have to operate from the centre. The ability of those inside it to continue carrying out essential operational tasks which, as I have explained, are concerned with air defence of the United Kingdom, is of crucial importance to the overall defence of this country and thus to the NATO Alliance. It is quite wrong to suggest that because service operational staff are to be protected in this way, this is an indication of the Government's belief in the
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likelihood of nuclear war. We are determined to prevent all war—conventional or nuclear. We are determined to do that through a policy of deterrence. The credibility of deterrence depends to an important degree on the capacity of our servicemen to be able to operate effectively in an emergency, protected to the greatest extent possible from the effects of modern weapons. The operational reasons underlying our decisions are, of course, overriding. However, there has also been ill-informed speculation about the environmental impact of the proposals. I propose to set the record straight.
The new operations and communications centre will be built underground. This means that upon the completion of the construction of the new centre the surrounding land will be restored as closely as possible to its former state. The site of this underground building will be marked only a by grassed over mound of earth about 150 metres square at the base. The area will be landscaped and screens of trees will be planted to the north and west of the site. I would like to break off for a second and take your Lordships back to a time before the last war, to where I live in Wiltshire. I can name an airfield where all the hangars have turf and trees upon them. The barracks, the airfield and the living quarters were lined with trees in the 1930s, and they are the finest avenues of trees I have ever seen the Ministry of Defence put up. That is not far from where I live.
The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, went quite romantically through the bluebells and daffodils. I say to him that the Ministry of Defence will probably plant not only a lot of trees but also make sure that the bluebells and daffodils are replaced. The noble Lord was also worried about the mound, which he thought would spoil the countryside. When the trees are grown, the grass is replanted, and the soil is put back as it should be—not, as I believe the noble Lord said, mixed up with chalk but replaced in its proper layer—the countryside will look even better than it is now. That is the intention of the Ministry of Defence.
The National Trust's primary duty is to keep unspoilt the area of the countryside which they own. We discussed with the National Trust the best means of ensuring that the development would not intrude into the natural beauty of the area. I believe that the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, just described that in his very fine speech. Only after we had established that it would be possible for the centre to be built with only the minimum of disturbance to the environment did the trust agree provisionally—and I use the word "provisionally"—to lease the area we require for this project. I say again that it is provisional at this stage.
In order to minimise, so far as possible, the effects of construction traffic on the surrounding roads approaching the site during the building phase we have in mind also to licence for the period of construction only three adjacent fields for dumping the spoils from construction of the new centre, thus reducing the number of vehicles entering and leaving the site. The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, was right to worry about this, but this is the way in which the Ministry and the National Trust have looked at the problem in order not to damage the area while construction is going on. These fields will be returned

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to agricultural use afterwards. There was some feeling that they would be so damaged that they would not be able to be used, but they will be resoiled and then they will be all right again.
Finally, we are discussing with the National Trust the construction of a temporary road to the site which will considerably alleviate the impact of construction traffic on the nearby historic village of Bradenham. I gather that in regard to this there is no final decision on which way it will be taken. I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Gibson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, but there is nothing as yet decided. There is, however, no question of not having an operations centre there; the present one already exists and would not be relinquished if a new centre was not built.
My Lords, secondly, High Wycombe is no more of a target than many other installations in the United Kingdom. It is generally believed in the argument tonight by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that only High Wycombe would be in the danger zone, but of course in the event of an attack all parts of the United Kingdom could expect to be affected to some degree. It is an unfortunate fact that because of its intrinsic geographical, political and industrial importance Britain is already a target for any attack on the West. Particular military centres do not alter that fact. By increasing the Alliance's defensive capability and its ability to deter attack, whether conventional or nuclear, the new operations and communications centre will contribute to preventing war and so help to continue the peace.
The improvements to the defence of the United Kingdom which our plans for High Wycombe entail must be viewed in the context of the Government's policy to prevent war and to do so through a policy of deterrence. The credibility of deterrence depends upon ensuring that our defences are strong and that our commitment to the collective security of NATO is maintained. But this is not to eschew our strong desire for reducing tension in the world through disarmament and arms control. The Government remain firmly committed to seeking realistic measures of multilateral disarmament. They will continue to work constructively towards that goal.
We fully support the American objective in the negotiation now in progress in Geneva on intermediate range nuclear forces, of a zero level for land based missiles. We look forward to the resumption of talks on strategic weapons. We are playing an active part in negotiations aimed at reducing conventional forces in Europe and have participated fully in the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. In the Committee on Disarmament in Geneva we have recently tabled proposals designed to make progress towards a ban on chemical weapons, and other subjects are also under discussion. We shall take a full part in the United Nations Second Special Session on Disarmament in June which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has announced she hopes to attend. The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, was worried about that, and that is why I added that paragraph to read to him tonight. Her Majesty's Government will continue as much as we can to seek disarmament at all levels.
To sum up, therefore, our plans for constructing a new underground operations and communications
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centre at High Wycombe will lead to a positive enhancement of the air defences of the United Kingdom and thus our ability to deter aggression. The new centre will be a vital element in the air defence of the United Kingdom. It would be misleading to view this development as other than a desirable enhancement of our conventional defences. Therefore, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence has no intention of cancelling the project.

Hertsmere Borough Council (Rowley Lane) Bill
The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and referred to the Examiners.
West Yorkshire (Parking and Transport) Bill
The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and referred to the Examiners.
  EDUCATION IN NORTHERN IRELAND: CHILVER REPORT
  EDUCATION IN NORTHERN IRELAND: CHILVER REPORT
  POWER STATIONS: CPH SCHEMES
  POWER STATIONS: CPH SCHEMES
  SEAL PUPS: SUPERVISION OF HUNTERS IN SCOTLAND
  SEAL PUPS: SUPERVISION OF HUNTERS IN SCOTLAND
  SEAL PUPS: LICENSED HUNTING IN SCOTLAND
  SEAL PUPS: LICENSED HUNTING IN SCOTLAND
  EEC RESOLUTIONS ON EL SALVADOR
  EEC RESOLUTIONS ON EL SALVADOR
  STATE BENEFITS: IMMIGRANTS
  STATE BENEFITS: IMMIGRANTS
  MENTALLY-HANDICAPPED PEOPLE: CONTINUING EDUCATION
  MENTALLY-HANDICAPPED PEOPLE: CONTINUING EDUCATION
  PUBLIC RECORDS: WILSON COMMITTEE REPORT
  PUBLIC RECORDS: WILSON COMMITTEE REPORT