Sitting of 11 February 1982

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS

    HUMBERSIDE BILL [Lords] (By Order)
    Order for Third Reading read.
    To be read the Third time upon Thursday 18 February.
    LLOYD'S BILL (By Order)
    Order for further consideration, as amended, read.
    To be further considered upon Monday 22 February at Seven o'clock.
    SEVERN-TRENT WATER AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 25 February.
    SOUTHERN WATER AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
    Read a Second time and committed.
    ALEXANDRA PARK AND PALACE BILL (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 4 March.
    BRITISH RAILWAYS (LIVERPOOL STREET STATION) BILL
    (By Order)
    Read a Second time and committed.
    GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS)
    (No. 2) BILL (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 25 February.
    LONDON TRANSPORT (LIVERPOOL STREET) BILL (By
    Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 18 February.
    TEES AND HARTLEPOOL PORT AUTHORITY BILL
    (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 25 February.
    CUMBRIA BILL [Lords] (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 18 February.
    BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL (By Order)
    FELTHAM STATION AREA REDEVELOPMENT
    (LONGFORD RIVER) BILL (By Order)
    Orders for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Thursday 25 February.

Oral Answers to Questions
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Interest Rates
    Mr. Newensasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is his policy to seek to achieve lower rates of interest by agreement with other Governments; and if he will make a statement.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Geoffrey Howe): While the policies of individual Governments on interest rates must be determined largely in the light of their domestic circumstances, it is important that countries should have regard to the international consequences of their actions.
    Mr. Newens: Does the Chancellor admit that his forecast in his Budget speech of reduced interest rates resulting from increased taxation and vicious cuts in public expenditure has now been shown to be worthless? Does he agree that the budget that President Reagan is now proposing, with its crazy 18 per cent. increase in defence expenditure, threatens a deficit that will produce an increase in interest rates throughout the world? Does this not demonstrate the crass folly of the economic policies pursued by President Reagan and this Government?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: There is inconsistency between the two halves of the hon. Gentleman's question. The Budget that I introduced last year enabled this country to enjoy—
    Mr. Newens: Enjoy?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe:—throughout the summer, interest rates that were several points lower than they would otherwise have been, and several points lower than they were in other countries. The main reason for the increase in United Kingdom interest rates in September was the impact of higher interest rates in the United States. That increase was the consequence of higher prospective United States public sector borrowing. For that reason, while the Government support the general objectives of United States policy, we urge on the United States the need to contain its budget deficit, just as we do upon ourselves.
    Mr. Higgins: While not accepting all the points just made by the hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens), I suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend that the scope for reducing United Kingdom interest rates, even if the monetary aggregates are moving in a satisfactory way, is extremely limited while United States interest rates remain high. In view of the remarks made by Mr. Paul Volker today, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider carefully whether he should have further consultations both with the United States Administration and, in the light of what he has just said, the leaders of Congress?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: I accept my right hon. Friend's point. While we do not claim that United States interest rates are the sole influence on our own, they have a powerful effect and we can do only a little to offset that. Even so, we must continue to achieve the right balance between fiscal and monetary policies as far as we can.
    It is equally important for the United Kingdom and its partners in Europe to make plain to the United States our

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    concern about the level of its budget deficit and the implications of that for interest rates throughout the world. The European nations have already taken steps to do that, but I shall consider my right hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. Shore: The use of the word "enjoyment" is singularly inappropriate to any aspect of the Chancellor's economic policies during the past year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) rightly reminded the House, interest rates were cut to 12 per cent. last March as the justification for the massive fiscal deflation that accompanied the Budget. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least accept that one major reason why interest rates have risen during the year has been the abolition of exchange control, which has resulted in a flood of British money—for the September quarter the Bank of England put it at more than 25 per cent. of total savings—from pension and insurance funds for investment abroad? Has not the Chancellor contributed to the high interest rates of which he is now complaining?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The right hon. Gentleman misunderstands the matter. The subject has been fully analysed in the latest issue of the Economic Progress Report, which was discussed at the NEDC meeting last week. It was plain from that discussion and those documents that the impact of the abolition of exchange control on interest rates was small. On the other hand, the impact of exchange control on the level of exchange rate undoubtedly served to keep it at a lower level than it would otherwise have been—exactly what the right hon. Gentleman has always wanted.

    Public Sector Manpower and Resources
    Mr. Stanbrookasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consideration he is giving to recent Confederation of British Industry proposals for a more efficient use of manpower and resources in the public sector.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Leon Brittan): I have warmly welcomed the report of the CBI working party on Government expenditure. The Government have made further reductions in planned public services manpower and administrative costs, as my right hon. and learned Friend announced on 2 December. We are pursuing many of the points which were made in the report and have welcomed the CBI's offers of continuing interest and practical help.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree with the CBI that we could save almost £3.5 billion by 1984 if we cut out the overmanning and inefficiency in the public sector? When will we make some progress in that area?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not necessarily accept my hon. Friend's figures, but I agree that there is a great deal of progress to be made in that direction. I welcome the fact that the Civil Service has been reduced by more than 50,000 since the Government took office. It is now smaller than at any time for more than 14 years. I am sure that we can make further progress in that direction.
    Mr. Straw: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that his refusal to accept the figure of £3.5 billion savings is shared by the CBI, whose document was so poorly argued that one of its leading members, Sir Leo Pliatzky, resigned before it was produced? The CBI's
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    latest assessment calls for lower savings. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman looks at the CBI's plans for private profiteering and privatisation, will he examine carefully the report disclosed in Monday's Financial Times, which claimed that the ratepayers of Southend, far from benefiting from privatisation of certain services, had been conned and that the real effect on them is not a saving, but a cost of £700.
    Mr. Brittan: It is not for me to defend the CBI report, but I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's remarks about it. I am not aware of any withdrawal from the report by the CBI. I found the recommendations of the CBI, for example on accounting methods, on increasing responsibility in line management and Government, and for the contracting out of local government services, extremely valuable. I hope that we can move along those lines.

    Economic Forecast
    Mr. Dykesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what prospect for a revival in the economy he foresees for 1982.
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The Industry Act forecast, published in December, envisaged a continuation of the gradual recovery in output which started in 1981. An assessment of economic prospects will be published as usual with the Budget on 9 March.
    Mr. Dykes: Can the monetarist experiment be continued in an effort to reduce the rate of inflation below 10 per cent. without a further intolerable rise in the numbers of unemployed?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: My hon. Friend should not talk of a monetarist experiment, because the importance of monetary policy has been fundamental to economic policy management in Britain since the lesson that was imposed on the Labour Administration by the IMF in 1976. It is part of the common understanding of other Governments and Finance Ministers throughout the world. It is important to maintain the proper balance in that policy if we are to sustain progress towards lower inflation and, eventually, towards the recovery of employment.
    Mr. Richard Wainwright: At what stage of that tenuous predicted recovery does the Chancellor expect to be affected by the persistent overshoot in the growth of sterling M3?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The hon. Gentleman knows from his distinguished contribution to the proceedings of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee that, as explained in my last Budget speech and before that, sterling M3 is by no means the only monetary aggregate to which we have regard.
    Mr. Dorrell: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the public expenditure package that he presented in November represented half his Budget judgment for the forthcoming year? Will he confirm that the House should remember that that package represented a deflation, on the most conservative estimate, of £1,000 million, and that the Budget must be seen against that background?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The two halves of my hon. Friend's question are inconsistent. On 2 December I

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    announced the expenditure half, and only that half, of my Budget. It is impossible for even my hon. Friend to judge whether it was deflationary in its effect.
    Mr. Shore: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has used the word "revival". When does he expect such a revival to reach the level in either employment or output that Britain enjoyed three years ago before he became Chancellor?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that all countries have been sustaining reductions in their economic activity, not least because of the huge increase in oil prices that took place in 1979. I expect the right hon. Gentleman—it is too much to expect—to welcome the fact that output has been moving in the right direction since the middle of last year.

    Unemployment Costs
    Mr. Andrew F. Bennettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the cost to public funds of the current level of unemployment, including benefits that have to be paid out and money that is not collected, such as national insurance, income tax, and so on, and what is the average cost per unemployed single man, per unemployed single woman and per unemployed married man with two children, respectively.
    Mr. Brittan: Payments of unemployment benefit and supplementary benefit to people registered as unemployed are expected to total about £4 billion in 1981–82. A comparable figure cannot be given for revenues that were not collected—that could be only hypothetical. The average cost of benefits paid to unemployed people depends upon a number of assumptions. On the basis of the assumptions detailed in the answer I gave to a question from the hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) on 16 December, the public expenditure cost of benefits paid to an unemployed married man with two children is £3,191 a year. On similar assumptions, the public expenditure cost of benefits paid to a single person, male or female, is £1,110 if a non-householder and £1,826 if a householder.
    Mr. Bennett: Does not the Chief Secretary accept that the sums involved are close to the wages that many people would be prepared to accept for working? Is he aware that 250,000 people have been out of work for two years or more and that many of them expect the Government to create jobs with the money that they are spending on benefits?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not accept that the hon. Gentleman is right. In a speech last weekend I tried to explain the figures. It is apparent that at nil net cost the amount of money that could be spent on providing employment is such that people would have to work for levels of pay substantially below the current benefit level. Although we may be tempted to follow the hon. Gentleman's reasoning, the figures do not support such a line.
    Mr. Renton: Is my right hon. and learned Friend considering the proposal of Professor Layard that, along the bold lines of the youngsters in a work scheme, a substantial wage subsidy might be payable for a year to employers for each net addition to their labour force involving people who have been out of work for more than six months?
    Mr. Brittan: That is a different proposition, which must be considered on a different basis because it involves additional expenditure. In considering whether that is desirable, we must take into account the long-term effect on the labour market of doing so and whether alternative uses for that money would play a better part in assisting the recovery of British industry.
    Mr. Cook: Will the Chief Secretary at least take the credit for his Government's having reduced the cost of unemployment by reducing unemployment benefit? Does he realise that during the past three years his Government have reduced unemployment benefit by a 5 per cent. abatement, a 2 per cent. error in calculation and, finally, the abolition of earnings-related supplement? Does he not appreciate that there is a grotesque contrast between that mean penny-pinching on the level of benefit and the ridiculous squandering of money by doubling the numbers of unemployed? If he find cannot find a way to give the unemployed jobs, will he at least give them the benefit to which they are entitled?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's figures, and I certainly do not accept his analysis of the causes of the current levels of unemployment. He knows perfectly well that the reason for the present unemployment is a combination of the world recession and the past lack of competitiveness of the British economy.

    Income Tax
    Mr. Hardyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the cost per individual income tax payer of the administration and collection of income tax; and how many individual taxpayers pay less than that amount.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury' (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): Counting husbands and wives separately, the average cost per individual taxpayer for the current year is expected to be about £24. About 350,000 people have a smaller liability than this, but in a number of these cases no tax is paid because assessing tolerances apply.
    Mr. Hardy: Is the Minister aware that among the increasingly hard-pressed ranks of standard rate taxpayers there are many low-paid workers, widows and others whose income is little above the supplementary benefit level? Will he ensure that his right hon. and learned Friend appreciably raises the threshold, because that would save a great deal of money and be a relief to the many people who are extremely hard pressed at present?
    Mr. Ridley: I cannot anticipate my right hon. and learned Friend's Budget Statement. However, I can say that wherever the allowances are drawn some people will always fall just the wrong side of the line.
    Mr. Wigley: Can the Minister give an assurance, however, that the Government have not ruled out the possibility of increasing the allowances by more than this year's requirement to make up for the losses sustained last year when the Rooker-Wise amendment was not followed?
    Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to say anything more than that nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in.

    Economic Policy
    Mr. Craigenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to reply to the Treasury and Civil Service Committee report of 18 December 1981 on the Government's economic policy.
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The questions discussed in the Committee's report are matters for my forthcoming Budget.
    Mr. Craigen: When the Chancellor responds to the Select Committee, will he have collected his thoughts and be able to say precisely what the Government's economic strategy is? Why do we hear so little nowadays about sterling M3?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: I am delighted by the hon. Gentleman's interest in the subject. He will hear more about it in my Budget Statement.
    Mr. Eggar: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there is now considerable confusion about whether the sterling M3 targets detailed in the medium-term financial strategy are indeed targets? Do we now have an exchange rate policy?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: As is explained in the Government's Green Paper on monetary policy, and as was fully explained in last year's Red Book and in my Budget Statement, we have regard to more monetary aggregates than the sterling M3 figure and, as I said last year, we take account of the sterling exchange rates.
    Mr.Straw rose․
    Mr. Speaker: I shall call the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), but may I say that the Front Bench has spoken on every question except one.
    Mr. Straw: In that case, Mr. Speaker, I forgo the question.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Winnick.
    Mr. Winnick: On the subject of the Government's economic policy, has the Chancellor had time to study the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour), in which he called for urgent Government action to save large parts of Britain from economic destruction and spoke of Treasury half-truths? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that when his right hon. Friend made those remarks he was reflecting the views of the vast majority of people in Britain, who reject with contempt the Government's economic policies, which have brought economic devastation to many parts of the country?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The hon. Gentleman is wholly mistaken in his analysis of the situation. The Government's policies have been, are and will continue to be directed to laying the foundations of sustainable economic growth, maintaining the battle against inflation and reversing the tide of unemployment.

    European Community (Budget Contribution)
    Mr. Nicholas Wintertonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent progress has been made in the negotiations between the Finance Ministers of the European Economic Community with regard to the United Kingdom's budget contribution.
    Mr. Ridley: The Community's Finance Ministers have not discussed the problem of net budget contributions since the autumn. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal told the House on 27 January about the latest discussions between Foreign Ministers.
    Mr. Winterton: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that there is an increasing sense of grievance and dissatisfaction among the British people about our contribution to the European budget? They know that the European Community has not yet repaid to this country money that is owed to us, and that if it had that money would be available to reduce public borrowing and help British industry to reduce unemployment and stimulate investment.
    Mr. Ridley: Whatever may have been true before the Government came to office, enormous progress has been made in this respect recently. The Commission estimates that in 1980 our net contribution was some £200 million only, and in 1981 some £55 million only, so my hon. Friend cannot take the Government to task for that. Judging by present demands, those sums would not be adequate for those who believe that there should be a massive reflation of British industry.
    Mr. Jay: Yes, but what will be the situation at the end of this year if no agreement is reached by then?
    Mr. Ridley: The provisions of the 30 May agreement will apply to the calendar year 1982 if there is no agreement. It is impossible to know the net cost of our contribution in those circumstances until we know the world agriculture prices and many factors that have not yet been determined.

    Public Expenditure
    Mr. Squireasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of public expenditure was represented by capital expenditure (a) at the latest available date and (b) 10 years previously.
    Mr. Brittan: Capital expenditure formed 11 per cent. of general Government expenditure in 1980–81 compared with 22 per cent. in 1970–71. Taking account of price movements, capital expenditure by public corporations was broadly the same in 1980–81 as in 1970–71.
    Mr. Squire: Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that that shows a rather depressing fall in capital expenditure as a proportion of the total? What is the comparison with our European competitors? Finally, does he accept that, at least as regards certain essential public expenditure, only the authorities—national and local—can carry out that expenditure?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not know the comparable figures for other countries. I agree that the figure is depressing. It is all the more remarkable when one considers that the figure, which went down from 22 to 11 per cent. between 1970–71 and 1980–81, went down from 19 to 10 per cent. between 1975–76 and 1977–78.
    Mr. Freeson: Is not the major cause of that imbalance between current and capital expenditure in the public sector the enormous increase in expenditure on unemployment benefits and the revenue foregone as a result of massive unemployment? Is it not true that if, let us say, £1,000 million were put into a construction

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    investment programme, the net cost to the public sector borrowing requirement would be less than £400 million? Why do the Government not accept that there should be a shift of this kind from revenue costs to capital investment?
    Mr. Brittan: The loss of revenue can have nothing to do with the percentage of resources going on capital as opposed to current expenditure. In my opinion that has little to do with the matter. If the right hon. Gentleman is asking about the causes for the change and the possible contribution of a measure of the kind that he described, I can tell him that the real reason for the change in the proportion is largely the fact that social service expenditure has gone up over a long period. The right hon. Gentleman does less than justice to his own Government in failing to take account of that fact, although it is certainly true that in the years that I mentioned, 1975–76 to 1977–78, the huge fall in actual capital expenditure was the significant component.
    Mr. Forman: May we look forward to early Government action to rectify that alarming trend? Is it not true that, as long as public sector pay is kept firmly under control, it should be possible to do precisely that in areas such as housing, construction and industry?
    Mr. Brittan: I agree with my hon. Friend that public sector pay is a key element in the whole equation. To the extent that that is kept down, it is much easier to provide the money that one would wish for capital expenditure.
    Mr. Cook: Given the Chief Secretary's earlier reply that he is not responsible for the level of unemployment, does he accept that there is a connection between the fall in capital expenditure to which he has just referred and the vast army of unemployed construction workers? Does he accept that those men are unemployed not because of the world recession or because they are not competitive with foreign construction workers, but because the Government are not investing in the future of Britain?
    Mr. Brittan: That is an entirely false analysis. The overwhelming reason for the present unemployment levels is lack of competitiveness in the past, caused by pay levels rising at a rate wholly inconsistent with increases in productivity. An increase in real disposable incomes of 17 per cent. such as occurred between 1977 and 1980 could not possibly continue without having a major impact on

    Marriage (Financial Disincentives)
    Mr. Marlowasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to reverse the increasing trend of financial disincentives against marriage.
    Mr. Ridley: This is one of the important subjects set out for public discussion in the Green Paper on the taxation of husband and wife, published at the end of 1980.
    Mr. Marlow: Did my hon. Friend have the opportunity to read a very interesting article in a very reputable national newspaper about a couple—no doubt North London Socialists—who obtained a divorce and discovered that by doing so they saved £7,000 per year in tax? Is it not slightly absurd that a Government who believe so much in the family should put such a premium upon living in sin?
    Mr. Ridley: Most couples are better off married than single for tax purposes. The converse applies only when the wife, potential wife, or potentially separated wife has a very large investment income, as may well be the case for the couple to whom my hon. Friend referred. The balance is between marrying for money and being taxed on it for one's pains.

    Value Added Tax
    Mr. Neubertasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his policy towards the level of value added tax chargeable on the profit margins on holidays organised by tour operators within the Common Market.
    Mr. Ridley: It is not the Government's policy that the amount of VAT chargeable on package holidays should be determined by the profit margins of tour operators.
    The VAT treatment of supplies by travel agents and tour operators is due to be reviewed by the European Community Commission during the course of this year in accordance with the provisions of the European Community's sixth VAT directive. If any changes were proposed to the Council of Ministers as a result of this review they would be fully discussed with the trade bodies concerned. Any decision by the Council would have to be unanimous. No proposals have yet been made for any change.
    Mr. Neubert: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government will show the greatest possible opposition to this proposal, as millions of holidaymakers look to him to avoid this extra cost, which will come on top of currency surcharges, fuel surcharges, airport taxes and even security levies? Does he agree with holidaymakers that there is no need for a new tax when we already have so many old ones?
    Mr. Ridley: VAT at the rate prevailing in the country in which the holiday is taken is paid within the total cost of a package. To impose it upon profit margins as well would be an extra layer of tax. For that reason, the Government have retained their derogation from the directive and will have the opportunity to maintain that position for the future when negotiations resume.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Does the Minister expect the VAT liabilities of Laker Airways and its subsidiaries to be paid in full?
    Mr. Ridley: That would be a matter for any receiver and not for me.

    Taxation Bill
    Mr. Alexanderasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress he has made in considering the feasibility of an annual technical taxation Bill to be presented to Parliament in addition to the annual Finance Bill.
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The possibility of an annual technical taxation Bill was discussed in the Armstrong report. I await with interest the views of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee on that report.
    Mr. AlexanderI thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Is it not the case that much of the annual Finance Bill deals not with the spending or raising of revenue but with highly technical proposed taxtion

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    reforms? Is it not a matter of concern that the House is expected to accept the annual Financial Statement and send the matter into Standing Committee with only the vaguest general idea of what the Finance Bill will actually contain?
    Sir Geoffery Howe: My hon. Friend to some extent echoes views which I expressed in a speech to the Addinton Society in 1977. Constraints on the parliamentary timetable make it unlikely that a technical Bill of the type that I then suggested could be introduced in the immediate future. For that reason I have continued to include a large number of important technical matters in the main Finance Bill.
    Mr. Horam: Will the Government study the feasibility of presenting a "Green" Budget, such as the Institute of Fiscal Studies has just produced, setting out costed alternatives strategies? Would that not be the right way to conduct the pre-Budget discussion rather than it, remaining a secret affair between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: That is a further aspect of the Armstrong recommendations, that is also being studied by the Select Committee. I look forward with interest to the findings of the Select Committee.

    Unemployment Costs
    Mr. Robert C. Brownasked the Chancellor of the Exchquer what is the cost to public funds of each unemployed person, taking into account loss of tax and national insurance revenue.
    Mr. Brittan: It is not possible to give a single figure. Estimates would depend on a range of assumptions, for example, about the characteristics of the unemployed people, the earnings they would have had in work, and whether they were in the private or the public sector.
    Mr. Brown: Will the Minister come clean and admit that the cost of unemployment is now approaching £15 billion per year? Does he agree that that figure exceeds the public sector borrowing requirement and is double the amount of North Sea oil revenue? Has he studied the prediction of the Manpower Services Commission that £10.5 billion in output will be lost as a result of unemployment? Does he agree that those are damnable statistics and that he and his right hon. and learned Friend should resign?
    Mr. Brittan: The answer to the last question is "No". [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I thought that it was important to get that question out of the way first. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I fully share his concern about unemployment levels, but an aggregate figure of the kind that the hon. Gentleman mentioned is not in itself a meaningful total, as it implies comparison with an economy with zero unemployment, which does not seem a very realistic approach to the problem.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the cost of unemployment is very high indeed? Will he address his remarks to an earlier question about unemployment in the construction industry, which is running at between 40 and 50 per cent? Will the Government consider introducing inflation-proof or index-linked construction bonds to attract private buyers into construction projects, which would get people back
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    to work, achieve a great reduction in public borrowing and also reduce unemployment, which must be to the benefit of everybody in this country?
    Mr. Brittan: I certainly agree that the construction industry has been through, and is still going through, a very difficult time, but I draw attention to the figures, for instance, for increases in private house building starts and orders generally, which show a significant improvement in the position. I would wish to consider my hon. Friend's proposition.
    Mr. Straw: Is the Chief Secretary aware that his expressions of concern about the number and condition of the unemployed can only be treated with nauseous contempt by the Opposition, when the Government have cut taxation for the rich, put 3 million people on the dole and reduced the living standards of the poorest people out of work? Will he acknowledge and accept that, as a result of the 2 per cent. and 5 per cent. cuts and the withdrawal of earnings-related benefit, an unemployed married couple now receive £13 per week less than they would have received if the Labour Government's regime had been maintained?
    Mr. Brittan: I am interested to learn of the hon. Gentleman's nauseous concern. There are those on the Government Benches who are as concerned as Opposition Members about the problem and who find equally nauseating the fraudulent prospectus of extravagant expenditure, likely to lead to massive inflation and higher unemployment, that is put forward by the Opposition.

    Value Added Tax
    Mr. Brothertonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on his present policy towards the payment of value added tax by charities.
    Mr. Ridley: My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has informed the charities that we are considering their request for a change in the law whereby charities have always paid purchase tax and later VAT on their purchases. But I must emphasise to the House that such a change, as well as being expensive in staff and revenue, would also give rise to major anomalies.
    Mr. Brotherton: Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply will give a certain amount of hope to the charities? Is he also aware, however, that there is great feeling on both sides of the House that the imposition of VAT on charities is far too high? Does he not accept that a reduction of this imposition by his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget would be welcomed by the whole House?
    Mr. Ridley: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend has heard my hon. Friend's remarks and that he is well aware of the views of hon. Members. I would point out, however, that there are about 140,000 bodies registered with the Charity Commission as charities. I do not believe that the House would regard all of them as fitting recipients of any relief that might be given.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the Minister aware that the doubling of value added tax has meant that, last year, Dr. Barnardo's paid £500,000, the Spastics Society, £218,000, the Royal National Institute for the Blind, £150,000 and the Royal National Institute for the Deaf,

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    £75,000 in VAT? At a time when local authorities are cutting essential services for disabled people, is it not disquieting that these organisations should have to cut back on homes and day centres, meals on wheels facilities and advisory and other important services?
    Mr. Ridley: What the right hon. Gentleman says is well known. There is a difficult problem. The right hon. Gentleman must himself acknowledge that there is a difficult problem of definition and that there are many charities to which he would not like the concession to be given.

    Road Taxation
    Mr. Edwin Wainwrightasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated total of all forms of road taxation in each of the past four years.
    Mr. Ridley: The amounts were £4,209 million in 1977, £4,620 million in 1978, £5,597 million in 1979 and £6,982 million in 1980. These figures and their components are published in "Transport Statistics Great Britain 1970–80". The information for 1981 is not yet available.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the Minister not realise that only about 28 per cent. of those amounts is spent on the roads? Does he not think that there should be greater expenditure when one considers the bad condition of our roads and the demand for bypasses to carry heavy vehicles? Does he not think that it is essential to get the unemployed back to work?
    Mr. Ridley: The figure of the proportion spent on roads given by the hon. Gentleman is approximately correct. Since the road fund ceased to be hypothecated to the construction of roads, the practice is not to equate revenue with expenditure in any particular sector. If that principle were to be carried very far, some strange consequences would arise.

    Economic Expansion
    Mr. Winnickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what measures he is considering to create an expansion of the economy.
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: The Government's intentions will be made clear in my Budget Statement.
    Mr. Winnick: Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer now comment on the speech by his right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) —sacked by the Prime Minister—in which the right hon. Gentleman clearly warned of the economic destruction being caused to this country by the policies of the Prime Minister and the right hon. and learned Gentleman?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: That is the second time that the hon. Gentleman has asserted the same view. For the second time, I repudiate it.
    Mr. Eggar: Is it not the case that whatever options my right hon. and learned Friend may be considering for 9 March, and whatever options are put forward by the Opposition, these will have little impact on the level of unemployment during 1982 and most of 1983? Is it not a cruel deception on the British people to pretend otherwise?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Shore: Is not the real trouble that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's own philosophy makes him equate expansion with inflation and that until he resigns and gives way to someone with a more forward-looking policy there is no hope of achieving expansion?
    Sir Geoffrey Howe: It is not a question of my philosophy. It is, in fact, the case that during the 1970s monetary demand rose by almost 350 per cent., while real output rose by only one-twentieth of that. It is manifest to most observers that inflation, reflation, and expansion of monetary demand is no way to improve the economy.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Squireasked the Prime Minister what are her official engagements for Thursday 11 February.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This afternoon I shall be leaving for a visit to Lincolnshire.
    Mr. Squire: Will my right hon. Friend find time to consider the reported comments of the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth), who is quoted as saying last night that he is fully behind Mr. Buckton and the striking drivers? Is she aware that I travelled to work with many of my constituents this morning, on what was a remarkably uncomfortable journey, by London Transport? Is she also aware that many of those travellers would like to be behind Mr. Buckton, albeit with a rather different aim?
    The Prime Minister: I agree that many commuters are making heroic efforts to get to work. Most are succeeding. I dropped a line the other day to two civil servants, one of whom had walked 14 miles to work and the other 12 miles.
    Mr. Winnick: What about a bike?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. All this shouting from a sedentary position is unparliamentary. In any case, a hullabaloo when hon. Members do not agree with an answer only delays Question Time.
    The Prime Minister: The people who are being made to suffer by ASLEF members' actions are their fellow citizens, fellow trade unionists and small businesses, upon which we rely to try to secure more employment.
    Mr. Foot: Does not the right hon. Lady think that the best course is for the House to wish success to the court of inquiry that is now examining the matter? Has the right hon. Lady had the chance today to consider, or indeed reconsider, the answer that she gave to the House a week ago on the question of El Salvador—[Laughter.] I do not know why this should cause laughter on the Government Benches. One thousand people a month are being murdered in El Salvador. Has the right hon. Lady had time to reconsider the answer that she gave last week? Does the more recent statement by the Minister of State, Foreign

    1109
    and Commonwealth Office, represent Government policy? Will the Government now oppose giving support funds or arms to the Duarte junta in any form?
    The Prime Minister: Industrial relations is a matter for British Rail and the unions to sort out for themselves. In so far as they are unable to do so, it is a matter for ACAS. One hopes, naturally, that ACAS will succeed in its efforts.
    With regard to El Salvador, I repeat what I have already stated. Elections are due to be held on 28 March, involving eight political parties. Other nations have been asked to send observers.
    Mr. Foot: Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that an election held in El Salvador in those circumstances would be nothing better than a murderous farce? Does she understand that the American diplomat on the spot has recommended that the Left-wing candidates in the election should conduct their election outside the country? Does she think that that is a fair election? Will she answer the question that I asked her? Does not the statement by the Minister of State mean that the Government are now reconsidering the policy?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the Government condemn violence, from whichever quarter it comes. It is not a way to conduct national or international relations if one continues to hold to that course. I repeat that there is an attempt to hold elections on 28 March involving about eight parties and that other nations have been asked to send observers. It would be better if the right hon. Gentleman wished those elections well.
    Mr. Hannam: In view of the decision by the board of British Leyland to postpone the making of the new light lorry because of the three-week strike at Leyland Vehicles Ltd., will my right hon. Friend emphasise the fact that those strikes damage the prospects of sales at home and abroad?
    The Prime Minister: I read about the decision of British Leyland. It is a matter for the board. However, I wholly support my hon. Friend. Strikes cause damage not only to the jobs of those who strike but to Britain's reputation. They mean that many orders that would otherwise come to this country are deflected to other countries where they do not go on strike as much as we do.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 11 February.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Hamilton: May I refer the right hon. Lady to the speech made yesterday by her right hon. acquaintance the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour), in which he described her policies as bringing large parts of Britain to their knees? Does she accept those strictures? Does she believe that there is still no alternative to her policies, or does she intend to make a U-turn within a few weeks?
    The Prime Minister: I believe that it would be accurate to say that my right hon. Friend and I are not wholly in accord in those matters.
    Mr. Ian Lloyd: Does the Prime Minister not consider it incongruous, to say the least, that the West should,
    1110
    properly, be devoting a great deal of its resources to ensuring that there is no further deterioration of the democratic conditions that have been won at such expense in Poland, while at the same time it devotes about £1,000 million of its resources to what is apparently accelerating the deterioration of democratic conditions in Rhodesia? Will she say something about the representations that have been made to her this morning about the incarceration of a Member of the Rhodesian Parliament, Mr. Stuttaford? For the first time that Parliament has recently been surrounded by troops.
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the representations from a Member of Parliament concerning the arrest of Mr. Stuttaford in Rhodesia—
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Where?
    The Prime Minister: In Zimbabwe, which, due to the excellent services of the present British Government, became independent Zimbabwe. Representations have been made on behalf of Mr. Stuttaford, who is not a United Kingdom citizen. Therefore, that is a matter for the Zimbabwean Government. However, our high commissioner is naturally doing all that he can to find out what is happening. We hope that the detention will not persist.
    Mr. David Steel: May I return to the rail dispute? Now that the Labour Party has come out in support of the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Fireman, is it not important that the Prime Minister makes it clear, on behalf not just of the Government but of the overwhelming majority of the House that the proper course of action in such a dispute is to make use of a court of inquiry and not to cause long-term damage to British Rail?
    The Prime Minister: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Insofar as the dispute cannot be settled between the employers and the employees, the proper course is to go to the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service and secure its services in resolving the dispute and to co-operate with it to that end.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the Prime Minister take some time to consider and to tell us, in the light of the Conservative manifesto promise to allow more decisions affecting Scotland to be taken in Scotland, whether she agrees with the statement by the Conservative candidate in the Glasgow, Hillhead by-election, to the effect that he is totally opposed to any form of devolution for Scotland?
    The Prime Minister: The Hillhead by-election has not yet started. Therefore, there can be only prospective candidates, otherwise there might be considerable difficulties with election expenses. Our view on devolution for Scotland was well set out in the last Parliament and it remains the same.
    Mr. Bob Dunnasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 11 February.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Dunn: Will my right hon. Friend say whether it is the Government's intention to introduce legislation that would give council tenants living in leasehold properties owned by local authorities the right to buy their council homes?
    The Prime Minister: I am well aware that our pledge at the general election covered those living in leasehold

    1111
    properties belonging to local authorities who wish to buy their homes, but where the local authority does not possess the freehold. Our last legislation did not cover that case. It should be covered. It is our intention to cover it. We have a high priority to do so. I cannot promise my hon. Friend that there will be legislation during this Session of Parliament. However, if not, we shall try in the next Session.
    Mr. Barry Jones: What interest is the Prime Minister taking in the Nissan-Datsun project being located in Britain? Does she understand the alarm felt by those of us who represent areas of high unemployment, as the unemployment figures mount month by month? Why does she permit the destruction of British industry?
    Mr. Prime Minister: The negotiations on the Nissan project are continuing. Unfortunately, I have as yet no statement to make about the negotiations. I hope that they will conclude successfully from the viewpoint of this country. With regard to British industry, the Department of Industry is embarking on what I hope will he a successful policy of having an exhibition called: "Can you make it?" [Laughter.] Opposition Members are not interested in getting more jobs. They prefer to complain about the level of unemployment.
    The Department of Industry is setting up what I hope will be a continuing exhibition so that manufacturers who import components can set out what they import. Then we can ask other manufacturers in this country if they can make it, so that we can get import substitution, which should lead to more jobs. That is a constructive approach. We on the Conservative Benches hope that it will be successful.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Has my right hon. Friend noticed the mushrooming of doubt in the Labour Party about the wisdom of its declared policy of wrenching Britain out of the EEC? Will she arrange to keep the Labour Party continuously briefed on the present number of jobs at risk and the number that will result from projects such as Datsun, which will be gone forever if the idea were to grow that we plan to pull out of the Common Market?
    The Prime Minister: I note that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) is reported in an interview as having refused to commit himself to a policy of withdrawal from the EEC. May I congratulate him on his
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    new-found hesitancy? I hope that it will be turned into outright support. I also believe that the TUC is recognising the need to stay in the EEC. We do well from it. in this country, especially with regard to inward investment, which produces jobs.
    Mr. Greville Janner: Will the Prime Minister find time today to consider the majority decision in the House of Lords in the case of Harriet Harman, which is an apparent travesty of common sense? Will she consider introducing legislation to overturn that decision and in the meantime ask the Home Secretary not to enforce the order for costs against that lady?
    The Prime Minister: To have a decision in the morning and to be asked to introduce legislation in the afternoon is a little quick. It is better to consider matters first.
    Mr. Eggarasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 11 February.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Eggar: Has my right hon. Friend seen newspaper reports that show that the time off given to civil servants for trade union duties costs Britain about &£14 million a year? Is not that estimate, proportionately, approximately twice as much as it costs the private sector? Will the Prime Minister assure the House that a full investigation will be carried out?
    The Prime Minister: I saw the newspaper report to which my hon. Friend refers earlier in the week. I understand that the figure that he gives is correct. The agreement was negotiated in 1974. My hon. Friend will know that all employers are legally required to allow time off, both for industrial relations duties and for purely trade union activities. That agreement is being reviewed and renegotiated with the different unions in the Civil Service. The conclusion was that changes should be made to ensure that those who receive paid time off should properly account for their use of it and that allocations of time off should be reviewed at least annually—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Reading".] It is sometimes better to prepare answers to reports that appear in the press.
    A new agreement incorporating those provisions is now being negotiated with the unions.

Questions to Ministers
Mr. George Cunningham: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was very disturbed, I think last week, to notice in the Lobby a Conservative Member with a bundle of question forms in his hand, handing them out to Conservative Members.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Who was the Minister?
Mr. Cunningham: It was not a Minister who was doing it.
There is a very long history to this practice. We all know that there is no chance whatever of totally stopping it and that in certain circumstances it is perfectly appropriate, but may I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that the House appointed a Committee on this matter in 1972? The present Home Secretary—the present Home Secretary— [HON. MEMBERS: "Wake up"]—the present Home Secretary was the Chairman of that Committee in 1972. Inter alia, the Committee looked into the question of planted questions. It deplored taking that practice to the extreme lengths to which two Conservative Ministers took it at that time. In the light of what happened this week and last week, it appears that the practice is stealing back in rather a big way. When the Prime Minister answers question, she comes out with what clearly must be a prepared statement. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to do what you can to stop it.
Mr. Speaker: The content of the Minister's reply is nothing to do with me. It would be wiser to have the Business Question.
Mr. Tim Eggar: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunnningham) has, by implication, referred to the question that I asked, are you aware that it was stated in the national press that I would be seeking to ask the Prime Minister a similar question?
Mr. Speaker: I did not see it in the national press, but I thought that I should give the hon. Gentleman the last few seconds of Question Time.

Business of the House
3.34 pm
Mr. Michael Foot: Will the Leader of the House state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Francis Pym): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 15 FEBRUARY—Private Members' Motions until 7 o'clock. Afterwards, remaining stages of the Hops Marketing Bill [Lords]. Debate on the first report from the Select Committee on Procedure (Supply), Session 1980–81, House of Commons paper No. 118.
TUESDAY 16 FEBRUARY—Motions on the Rate Support Grant (Increase) Order, the Rate Support Grant Supplementary Report (England) 1982, and the Report on Rate Support Grant (England) 1982–83, the Welsh Rate Support Grant Report 1982 and the Supplementary Report 1982.
WEDNESDAY 17 FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Canada Bill.
THURSDAY 18 FEBRUARY—Motions relating to the National Health Service (Determination of Regions) Order, the National Health Service (Constitution of District Health Authorities) Order and the National Health Service (Determination of Districts) Order.
FRIDAY 19 FEBRUARY—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 22 FEBRUARY—Supply (13th allotted day): the subject for debate to be announced.
The Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration at 7 o'clock.
Mr. Foot: May I put four questions to the right hon. Gentleman? The right hon. Gentleman has announced that the Canada Bill will be debated next week. Is he aware that he has made a serious error of judgment in bringing the Bill forward before the completion of the legal action brought by the Indian Association? The Government once made it clear that they would wait until that action had been completed. Although it may have been technically completed, the Government know as well as we do that a petition will be sent to the other place and will be dealt with soon. Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the position and wait until that process has been concluded before holding a Second Reading debate?
May we have a debate, in Government time, on the appalling housing figures for 1981? They show the lowest number of starts for 60 years. There are 1¼ million people on the waiting list and 400,000 building workers—one quarter—are out of work. Will not the right hon. Gentleman arrange a debate on that important subject?
Before the Government make any further recommendations to the House, may we have an early debate on training? It is time that we had a debate on training facilities, particularly for the young. Two statements were made before Christmas and one of them led to a serious reduction in the number of training boards. In addition, apprenticeships are at the lowest level for many years. Will the right hon. Gentleman not arrange a debate?
What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do about the Bill concerning London transport, which received such strong support, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay)? That Bill was supported by the whole Labour Party, a section—I believe—of the Liberal Party and even a splinter

1115
group from the SDP. Given that strong alliance, will not the right hon. Gentleman understand that there should be immediate provision for the introduction of legislation? As the right hon. Gentleman knows that he must introduce such legislation, cannot he get on with it? Does not the Bill provide him with that opportunity?
Mr. Pym: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government have given serious consideration to his specific point about the Canada Bill and, indeed, to all the relevant issues involved. We took all that into consideration before reaching the conclusion that it is right to proceed now.
I cannot provide a day for a debate on housing in Government time. Obviously, it is a suitable subject for a Supply day debate. I should not be reluctant to provide Government time for it, but I have been forthcoming about Government time to debate other subjects—notably unemployment—and I cannot foresee an early opportunity to debate housing. It is only right that I should say that.
The same is true of a debate on training facilities. We have launched a major new initiative on training, which is immensely important in preparing the next generation for our new industries. Our major scheme is now under way. However, I cannot give a day for such a debate. If the Opposition feel that strongly, they should provide one of their days.
I cannot provide any time for the Bill introduced by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). Of course, there will be legislation on this subject, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport announced. The legislation that we propose and the time necessary to enact it is as far as I can go at present.
Mr. Richard Body: Before the House proceeds with the Second Reading of the Canada Bill would my right hon. Friend do his best to make arrangements for representatives of the Indian nations to meet the Minister in charge of the Bill so that they may express their genuine and substantiated fears about what the future holds for them when the Bill is enacted?
Mr. Pym: They have already made clear representations. Indeed, there have been court proceedings in the matter. My hon. Friend will be able to raise these points on Second Reading. I do not think anyone can say that there have not been ample opportunities for those representations and views to be expressed. Further opportunities will arise during the passage of the Bill.
Mr. A. J. Beith: Would the Leader of the House not accept that reports of Select Committees ought to be debated on amendable motions so that the House can express an opinion on the various items contained in them? Since the report to be debated on Monday on the Adjournment contains one proposition that the Supply time allocated to minority parties should be entirely at the discretion of the official Opposition, does he not recognise, particularly since this proposal would not require any change in Standing Orders to be given effect, that the House ought to be given the chance to vote on it and that the proposal to debate the matter on the Ajdournment is to deny us that right?
Mr. Pym: I think that the hon. Gentleman misunderstands what I have in mind. The debate on Monday is to enable views to be expressed upon the report. No decision will be sought. I will put forward some of the
1116
changes recommended by the Select Committee which the House might with advantage accept. No doubt the hon. Gentleman and other lion: Members will do the same. Subsequently, in some months' time, I will place motions on the Order Paper so that there will be an opportunity to debate the matters and come to a conclusion. But before framing those motions and asking the House to reach decisions it is right to hear the general views of all sides of the House. That is what we are going to do on Monday.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley: Will the Leader of the House arrange, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for a statement to be made next week on the secret guidelines to be issued by the Home Department to chief constables concerning surveillance of individual citizens and the review that may take place on these guidelines?
Mr. Pym: I do not think there will be time to debate that, but I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has a plan in mind to make available the nature of the guidelines to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: Is the Leader of the House aware that there seems to be a somewhat prolonged and serious deterioration in the arrangements for the delivery of the Vote? He will be as aware as any of us that there is nothing more pointless than receiving the Vote a day and a half or two days late.
Mr. Pym: I must agree with my hon. Friend. The cause of the delay has been unofficial union meetings each night in the warehouse department of St. Stephen's Parliamentary Press. These meetings have been held in protest against a continuing management stand against demands for what management believes to be unnecessary overtime. I am having investigations made. Naturally I wish to do everything I can to end the dispute on a satisfactory basis so that the parliamentary papers which hon. Members must have arrive at a proper time.
Mr. Jack Ashley: Does the Leader of the House know that the Manpower Services Commission has recommended the abolition of the quota system for disabled employees? Since this would damage the already bleak prospects of disabled employees, and since hon. Members on both sides of the House and disabled organisations are against the abolition of the quota, can we be sure that there will be a debate before the Government make up their mind on this recommendation?
Mr. Pym: I am not sure about a debate, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that this Government, like their predecessors, take all the care they can to ensure that as many disabled as possible have jobs. Clearly, in present circumstances, it is even more difficult than usual, but there is an organisation throughout the nation to help the disabled find jobs, and in Government we give that all the support we can.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I hope hon. Members will be as brief as possible. I will allow business questions to run until 4 o'clock.
Mr. Michael Brotherton: Will my right hon. Friend consider arranging a debate on immigration, which has not been discussed in the House for a long time? It is

1117
a subject that gives grave concern to vast numbers of people. I ask him most earnestly to give consideration to such a debate.
Mr. Pym: It is with regret that I have to say to my hon. Friend that I cannot see Government time being available in the foreseeable future. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to find another opportunity to raise the subject.
Mr. John Roper: Will the Leader of the House reconsider his decision about the nature of the debate on Monday on the report of the Select Committee on Procedure? Will he give us an assurance that there will be an opportunity on a "take note" motion to discuss the allocation of Opposition time among the various parties on this side of the House—a matter which was before the Committee?
Mr. Pym: I do not think it would be appropriate for me to ask the House to come to any decision on Monday following the debate on the Select Committee report. The purpose of the debate is to allow hon. Members to express their views. As a result of that, I will in due course table motions, on which I will ask the House to take decisions. That is the moment when the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends may wish to vote either on an amendment or on one of the substantive motions.
Mr. Christopher Price: Could the Leader of the House confirm the Prime Minister's welcome commitment given last week to introduce a Bill in the next Session on data protection?
Mr. Pym: I do not think that it is an absolute commitment at this stage. I would not go further than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
Mr. Richard Alexander: May I point out to my right hon. Friend that it would be convenient to hon. Members, their families and their constituents to have the earliest possible indication of our likely return after the Easter recess?
Mr. Pym: The Easter Recess is almost invariably one week, so Monday week after Easter day would be the normal time for the House to return.
Mr. Bruce George: The Leader of the House has not said why we are proceeding on Wednesday with the Canada Bill. Does the Canadian Prime Minister determine timetables, and not this Government? Why cannot the Government await the definitive ruling of the House of Lords which might be considering the case of the Indian Association of Alberta within a few weeks? Surely we must await that. Will he not agree that Canadians have been operating their constitution since 1967? Surely it would be worth while to delay the debate for a couple of weeks, if it affords justice to the Indians in Canada.
Mr. Pym: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I did wait for the conclusion of the earlier court action before proceeding with the Bill. I have considered that point carefully. I understand that an appeal is likely, although one has not so far been made. Even if it is, I have taken that fully into account before announcing that we will debate the Second Reading next week.
Mr. Christopher Murphy: As it is now 12 years since the House last had an opportunity
1118
for a major debate on the arts, will my right hon. Friend consider whether time could be found to discuss the Government's excellent record on the arts and heritage?
Mr. Pym: I would welcome that if time could be found. We shall have to see how we get on, but I wonder whether, under the Supply procedure to which the House may come in due course, a Select Committee investigation might be appropriate. I should like to have a debate in the House on the subject but I cannot find time at the moment. Perhaps my hon. Friend will find some other means of raising this important topic.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to confine the remaining time to those who have been standing up.
Mr. Andrew Faulds: In contrast to the puff from the hon. Member for Welwyn and Hatfield (Mr. Murphy), in view of the present and impending dangers to the life and work of a whole range of arts activities, when can the House have an opportunity to debate the whole question of arts funding and support, and when will it be possible to raise the advisability and propriety of introducing political considerations into Arts Council appointments, which seems to be a developing aspect of Government policy?
Mr. Pym: The hon. Gentleman will have to persuade his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to find a Supply day for a debate on that subject or consideration of that aspect in the appropriate Select Committee might be another way of dealing with it.
Mr. David Ennals: Would the Leader of the House give further consideration to his announcement about the Canada Bill? He has received representations from both sides of the House and from the Opposition Front Bench, partly on legal grounds. In view of the considerable concern of Members on both sides of the House about the Indians, will he not permit a free vote when the Bill finally comes before us?
Mr. Pym: As I have said before, I have taken all those considerations into account. The right hon. Gentleman might like to know that, as a matter of courtesy and, I hope, good sense, I have asked my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General to be present during the debate so that if legal matters arise he will be able to intervene if the House so wishes. Having considered the whole matter, the Government have come to the conclusion that it is right and appropriate to proceed.
Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: Does the Leader of the House not believe that it is quite wrong for the Government to take an individual through the courts in order to clarify the law, as this Government have done in the Harriet Harman case, which was decided today? Does he accept that it is necessary for the Home Secretary to make a statement to he House this week about rescinding the £25,000 costs that the Government have incurred in prosecuting an individual, when instead they should have legislated if they wished to have the law clarified?
Mr. Pym: No, Sir.
Dr. David Owen: Does the Leader of the House realise that his refusal to allow a "take note" motion on the Select Committee on Procedure (Supply) is a serious matter? Can he guarantee that there

1119
will be a debate before 10 o'clock on recommendation 8 within the next few months and that it will be possible to have a specific vote? Is he aware that, without such a guarantee, the smaller parties in the House are placed in a difficult position?
Mr. Pym: I cannot understand what has got into the SDP and the Liberal Party. We shall debate the matter generally and the right hon. Gentleman can express his views. In the light of what is said on Monday, motions will be tabled in due course on any changes that the Government decide to recommend. Those motions will be amendable and the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends can express their views. That is the right way to proceed. If the House thought that I would ask it to come to a decision on the report without a debate on Monday, I should be the subject of some criticism.
Mr. Donald Coleman: Can the Leader of the House tell us whether, in the light of the disgraceful talking out of the Death Grant (Increase) Bill last Friday, arrangements can be made for his right hon. Friend to make a statement about the increase in the grant?
Mr. Pym: The Government will announce their conclusions fairly soon. The House and the hon. Gentleman will know that the problem derives from the fact that the grant has not been altered for a long time. It was altered in 1967 and previously it has not increased commensurate with prices. There is a real problem here, but I hope that we shall announce our conclusions soon.
Mr. Martin Flannery: In view of the continuation of the railway strike, and the distinct likelihood today of a major escalation of the strike, will the Leader of the House set aside time for a debate so that we can clarify the issue for the whole country?
Mr. Pym: No, Sir. I do not believe that a debate would help. The only thing that would really help is for the strike to end and for the railways to start running again before British Rail's finances are in such a serious state that we must return to the subject.
Mr. David Winnick: Will the Leader of the House give further consideration to a debate on housing in Government time? Do not all the facts and figures show that many people have an appalling need for accommodation, especially those who must rent from local authorities? Would it not be wise, since last year's figures show that council dwelling building was at its lowest since the 1920s, to have a debate as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Pym: If such a debate is to take place in the immediate future it must be either in Opposition time or on some other basis.
Mr. Leslie Spriggs: Will the Leader of the House arrange for the appropriate Minister to make a statement in the House about Tootal Ltd., which has decided to close down its factory in St. Helens, and tell the House what he is prepared to do to try to save the jobs of its workers?
Mr. Pym: I do not know whether a statement would be appropriate. I doubt it, but I shall convey the hon. Gentleman's representations to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Bob Cryer: Can the Leader of the House assure us that a statement will be made by the
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appropriate Minister on the multi-fibre arrangement negotiations at the earliest opportunity, because reports are appearing in the newspapers about the stage that negotiations have reached? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is of great concern to the textile industry in both Yorkshire and Lancashire as that industry directly employs, in addition to the clothing industry, over 600,000 people?
Mr. Pym: I am acutely aware of the problems of the industry and I have tried throughout the negotiations to keep the House informed. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade has done that. There were to be negotiations today, but they have been postponed for a fortnight. Perhaps after that a statement could be made to the House. We must consider that at the time, but the hon. Gentleman's point is very much in my mind.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Will the Leader of the House arrange for a short debate, perhaps late at night, on the appalling problems in the British footwear industry, especially in the light of the effect of the changes in operation of the short-time working compensation scheme, reports of heavy dumping from China and Poland during the past few weeks and the fact that many thousands of people will lose their jobs as a result of Government inaction?
Mr. Pym: I agree that that too is an important issue, but I do not believe that I can find time for it. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can find some other way.
Mr. David Stoddart: Is the Leader of the House aware—to go back to the Canada Bill—that many hon. Members feel that the Canadian Indians have been oppressed for a long time and would appear to be oppressed again? Is it not essential that in this great constitutional issue we should safeguard the rights of the minority and see that they are heard? Is there any way in which Canadian Indian representatives can be brought to the Bar of the House to put their point of view to us?
Mr. Pym: The answer to the latter part of the question is "No". However, the hon. Gentleman can make his arguments during the debate. I have no doubt that his hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine) and other hon. Members will argue along the same lines. It is wrong to suggest that we should not proceed with the Bill.
Mr. John Garrett: In his short period of office, the Leader of the House has refused the House the use of the Public Bill procedure, has refused control of the Comptroller and Auditor General and has now set up a Procedure (Supply) Committee with wider terms of reference on a sessional basis so that it cannot possibly complete its terms of reference in time. Will he make a statement about how he proposes to remove those obstacles to the proper scrutiny exercised by the House?
Mr. Pym: That is not an appropriate question from the Opposition. We have made more changes and advances in our procedures than the Labour Government. There will be an announcement of our conclusions about the Comptroller and Auditor General following the Chancellor of the Exchequer's consideration of the debate that took place on the subject.
The Select Committee on Procedure (Supply) was unnecessarily delayed because there were problems in

1121
finding appropriate members to stand. That was not the Government's fault. It is reasonable to have the Committee on a sessional basis. It could have started work three or four months ago if it had been set up at once, but that did not happen. Even so, there should be plenty of time for the committee's work. However, if hon. Members have not finished their work and wish to continue next session, I would be prepared to consider setting it up again, but that is too far away to worry about at the moment.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call the four hon. Members who have risen and also a representative of the Opposition Front Bench.
Mr. Robert Parry: Will the Leader of the House arrange an early debate on the Northern Ireland economy, especially the critical unemployment position? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the serious problems facing De Lorean, Harland and Wolff and other companies? Will the Government give time for such a debate as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Pym: Few hon. Members are more sharply aware than I of all the problems in Northern Ireland. I welcome debates on Northern Ireland from time to time, on the economy no less than on security and other matters. There have been opportunities in recent months to debate various policies in Northern Ireland, but I am sure that there will be further opportunities in the future. I do not have a time in mind, but I am just as keen as the hon. Gentleman to have debates about the problems that face the Province.
Mr. Harry Ewing: Did the Leader of the House hear an interview on the BBC's "World at One" programme today with distressed mothers whose family holidays have been wrecked by the collapse of Laker Airways and the consequent loss of a large sum of money? In view of the trail of family havoc that has been caused by the collapse of Laker, and of the announcement of the frightening possibility of Tiny Rowlands and Laker coming together again to form a new airline, is that not a strong case for a debate on the matter in Government time?
Mr. Pym: I would not want to go further than my hon. Friend who made a statement from this Box last Friday; nor do I think that it is right for me to comment on the remarks of the hon. Gentleman. Obviously what has happened to this company is important, but I do not think that there is any cause for a further statement or any other action that I should take as Leader of the House in the immediate future. But the events are very much in our minds.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: Is the Leader of the House aware that some of us on this side of the House are against the idea of giving Supply time to the Social Democratic Party since all of them, bar one, were elected on a Labour ticket or a Conservative ticket. If Social Democratic Party members want parliamentary time, it is pretty clear to us that they ought to ask their colleagues in the Liberal Party to surrender part of their Supply time. They voted to join them and they must obtain their time from them.
1122
Will the right hon. Gentleman also take account of the fact that if he grants Supply time, the next thing is that the Social Democratic Party will want some of the parliamentary funds based on votes that they did not get at the general election for the party to which they now belong?
Will the Leader of the House also bear in mind that newspaper reports a few days ago suggested that 400-odd members of a National Front splinter group have joined the SDP? When all that is taken into account, we cannot allow them to get a foot in here.
Mr. Pym: I am sure that we all enjoyed that. I shall get into trouble if I start to express any views on how an Opposition might use or divide Opposition time. It is up to them to say whether they wish to divide it or not, and it is not the business of the Leader of the House to tell them how to use it.
Mr. Les Huckfield: On the railway industry, and not on the present dispute, is the Leader of the House aware of the growing rumours—and the concern that they are causing—that the Government have plans to take over the railway system and then to close parts of it down, in British Steel style? Can the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements for his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to come to this House and either confirm or deny those rumours?
Mr. Pym: We have no such plans. We only hope that there will be a good railway left at the end of this. If the dispute does not end pretty soon, I do not know what state the railways will be in.
Mr. David Steel rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has not been here, has he? The right hon. Gentleman did not hear me say 10 minutes ago that I would confine any further questions to those four hon. Gentlemen who were already standing. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will understand that the same rules must apply to him as to other hon. Members.
Mr. Steel: On a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: What is the right hon. Gentleman's point of order?
Mr. Steel: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I did indeed hear what you said earlier. I was attempting to react to something that the Leader of the House had said. With respect—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think I had called everyone who had been standing, with the exception of the Opposition Front Bench. However, experience in this House has taught me that the best thing to do is to be as reasonable as possible. If the right hon. Gentleman has an urgent point that he seeks to make, out of a sense of fair play the House may like to hear him.
Mr. Steel: What the Leader of the House said a few moments ago was very provocative. The right hon. Gentleman must accept his responsibility as Leader of the House and realise that the position has now changed, in that 20 per cent. of the Members on the Opposition Benches do not belong to the Labour Party. The right hon. Gentleman has a duty to the whole House to make sure that matters are openly debated.
Mr. Pym: All relevant issues can be debated on Monday.
Mr. John Silkin: Further to the question raised by the leader of the Liberal Party, will the Leader of the House, in his role as the protector of minorities, seek to accommodate the Social Democratic Party next week by arranging for a third voting lobby to be raised, because of the controversial nature of the business, so that they may be easy in both their votes and their minds?
Mr. Pym: I admire the right hon. Gentleman's imagination.

House of Lords (Judgment)
4.6 pm
Mr. Christopher Price: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the decision of the House of Lords in Harman v Secretary of State for Home Affairs and the effect of this judgment on the freedom of the press."
A very serious situation has now been created both for the principle of open justice in the courts of law of the land and for the freedom of the press generally. Indeed it is such a serious situation that one of the dissenting judges, Lord Scarman, was called upon to quote quite widely from Milton's "Areopagitica" in order to make points that he failed to make about what a fundamental judgment this is in terms of the freedom of the press to report matters that come before the courts.
I shall briefly make a number of points that go to the urgency of this matter. The majority judgments, for the first time in Britain, purported to draw a distinction between two kinds of journalists—between people called court reporters and ordinary newspaper reporters in the courts and what they call feature journalists. They purported to draw the distinction as though these two sorts of people were quite different and that one sort can have access, through a solicitor, to matters read out in open court whereas the other cannot. I need simply say on that that if we were to divide the Press Gallery into those two sorts of animal it would exclude one or two of our roost beloved journalists from this House.
My second point is that Lord Scarman made it absolutely clear in his judgment that the majority judgment contravened article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights which states that
"Everyone has the right to freedom of expression"
and that that right
"shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."
That right is only to be prevented by what is called a real pressing social need, as decided in the case concerning The Sunday Times, and Lord Scarman says that it can hardly be argued that there is a pressing social need to exclude solicitors from the rights available to everyone else.
Thirdly, the Home Office—the Government—brought this case and in the courts pursued their intention, which I find a quite offensive intention, to ask for Home Office costs. That will have the effect of bankrupting the National Council for Civil Liberties which now has to find £25,000. The Home Office's original statement was that it was a test case.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must not make the speech that he would make if he were granted his application. The hon. Gentleman knows what he must outline to me, apart from the urgency of the matter.
Mr. Price: I shall conclude. It has always been the case that the costs in a test case are borne by the Government. That has always been the principle.
In view of those three urgent issues which should be decided now, and could have been decided last year in the Contempt of Court Bill when it was before Parliament, we must have a debate on the Floor of the

1125
House—urgently—as we have in the past when the House of Lords has delivered judgment on cases as important as this one.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman gave me notice before noon today that he would seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the decision of the House of Lords in Harman v Secretary of State for Home Affairs and the effect of this judgment on the freedom of the press."
The hon. Gentleman has drawn our attention to a very important matter. It is not for me to say whether it should be discussed by the House. That lies in other people's hands. There is more than one way in which a matter can be raised. The House knows that it has limited my power to decide whether the matter should be discussed tonight or on Monday. The House has also instructed me to give no reasons for my decision.
I listened with great care to what the hon. Gentleman said, as I listened to the earlier exchanges, but I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order, and therefore I cannot submit his application to the House.

Canada Bill
Mr. Speaker: I have received notice of two points of order.
Mr. George Cunningham: I am tempted to begin my point of order, Mr. Speaker, with the words "Monsieur le President", because I want to put to you a question about the linguistic complications that we shall have next Wednesday on the Canada Bill. I do not know that it is unprecedented—it certainly cannot be historically unprecedented, but it probably is unprecedented in modern times—that we should be considering a Bill which is in English and in a foreign language.
The Bill is translated in annexe A, and therefore if any amendment were made to the Bill a consequential amendment of the French text in annexe A would need to be made, or it would be nonsense in Canada. The rest of the document is schedule B, which is in both languages.
If someone submits an amendment, apart from whether it is out of order on other grounds—I can imagine all sorts of other grounds that might make many amendments out of order—does he have to put it in English and French or just in English? If he submits it only in English, who will translate it into French?
Mr. Speaker: I shall call the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis) before I reply, because I believe that his point of order is related to the same subject.
Mr. Clinton Davis: My point of order is related to the same subject, Mr. Speaker, but not to the point raised by the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham). Would you prefer to deal with the hon. Gentleman's point of order first?
Mr. Speaker: I can tell the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) that I have taken aboard his point and that I shall make a statement to the House at the appropriate time.
Mr. Davis: I want to raise another point in relation to the Canada Bill, Mr. Speaker, as to whether it is appropriate and indeed within the rules of the House to debate the matter along the lines suggested by the Leader of the House today. I do not ask you to give a ruling immediately,
The right hon. Gentleman made a very bare statement, and we do not know from it whether it is the Government's intention to advise Her Majesty to place her Prerogative at the disposal of Parliament on Second Reading or later. If it is to be done at the time of Second Reading, in my submission it pre-empts the essential issues that are the subject of the proposed petition for leave to appeal to the House of Lords, which may well have been lodged by next Wednesday. Until the decision of the other place is made, the legal position affecting the issues before the House of Lords cannot decisively be made clear. That legal issue relates essentially to the question of the residue of the Crown's obligations in the United Kingdom. That, therefore, is an issue that remains open at present.
All these matters touch vitally, too, the position of Her Majesty, the Governor-General in Canada and the Royal Prerogative as well as the Indian peoples. I submit, therefore, that Her Majesty's consent is the very issue that is before the House of Lords and goes to the heart not only of the legislation but of the litigation.

1127
It cannot be asserted that the legal proceedings are vexatious or frivolous. They have occupied considerable time in the Court of Appeal, and although that court made a decision it was a reserved judgment after several days of argument and several days of deliberation by their Lordships.
An alternative procedure is open. The Secretary of State could refer the matter to the Privy Council by Order in Council under section 4 of the Judicial Committee Act 1833, or that could be achieved by a resolution of this House. At all events, the interests of the House are paramount. Those interests could well be seriously prejudiced by the announcement made by the Leader of the House if the House considers the matter before the House of Lords pronounces definitively on this important constitutional measure. That must be a matter of great concern to the House.
Mr. Speaker: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for saying that he did not expect me to make a statement today. I repeat what I said earlier. I shall make a statement to the House at the appropriate time about all the matters that have been raised.

Orders of the Day
  SUPPLY
  [12th ALLOTTED DAY] —considered.

  Overseas Development
  4.15 pm
  Mr. Frank McElhone: I beg to move,
  That this House, recalling the Prime Minister's commitment to the Third World at last year's Conferences in Ottawa, Melbourne and Cancun, is appalled and dismayed at the Government's intention to cut the aid programme for the year 1982–83 by at least 11 per cent. in real terms; deplores the Government's policy of moving away from funding projects that help the poorest groups in the Third World; considers that these actions only serve to confirm the callous indifference of Her Majesty's Government towards the 800 million people who are Living in absolute poverty; and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to increase and not reduce the United Kingdom's aid programme so that they move towards, and not away from, their stated commitment to reach 0.7 per cent. of gross national product for official development assistance.
  Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.
  Mr. McElhone: The Minister will know that in India on 24 February Mrs. Gandhi will open a conference of 34 countries to try to pick up the debris of the Cancun summit conference. It will be a serious attempt to restore the belief that the poor of the Third world will not be forgotten and that the basic principles outlined in the Brandt report will somehow be implemented in the foreseeable future.
  The truth is that, for all the pious statements of President Reagan and the Prime Minister, the Mexico summit was a dismal and abject failure. Added to that depressing picture is the fact that the Heads of State meetings in Ottawa and Melbourne resulted in not one extra pound or dollar being offered by President Reagan or the Prime Minister. Therefore, is it any wonder that the Government have no credibility left with anyone in the aid and development world?
  Nevertheless, some of the supreme optimists in the aid world believe that the cost of staging the Cancun summit was worth while, if only to give President Reagan his first lesson in development education, so that he is now aware that there are 800 million people living and dying in absolute poverty. Experience so far seems to show him to be a somewhat reluctant and unpromising convert, for his advice in Cancun to those starving millions was, crudely, to get on their wagon and look for salvation. What California in land resource terms one might find in Tanzania or Bangladesh, I do not know.
  The only tangible offer of help that the President seemed to give to that conference was a promise of some flying farmers. I understand that people associated with air traffic control and Jodrell Bank have been looking for those strange angels of American mercy, but so far they have not appeared on the horizon.
  The Minister will no doubt say that I have been grossly unfair to him and the Government, but he must answer for the Prime Minister, who is not here. The right hon. Lady sent a note saying that she had to be in some other part of the country. The hon. Gentleman must tell the House why,

  1129
  at Cancun, the summit where so much was expected, Brandt's emergency programme and the programme put forward by Kreisky of Austria for a Marshall aid-type plan costing $100 billion was not even seriously discussed.
  The Prime Minister, if she were present, would no doubt intervene to refer me to the promises outlined in the communiqués. Communiqués are always full of promises, especially as they are written before a conference starts. The fact that statements are often hypocritical is best outlined by pointing out that a few days after Cancun President Reagan attempted to block the World Bank loan to India. What a glaring indictment of his commitment!
  The Prime Minister at least achieved the dubious distinction of being consistent in her hypocritical approach, from the first hour in Downing Street when she read the epistle of St. Francis—her first action when she went through the door of No. 10 was to cut £50 million off the aid budget—through to her infamous description of aid as only a handout. When she returned from Mexico she immediately took £26 million off the aid budget and described aid as a handout. I understand that that brought a panic reaction from the "dries" on the Government Benches. It showed the indifference of the Prime Minister. I am not exaggerating when I say that that was bloodsucking the poor. It is not possible to convey all the sadness and bitterness in the Third world because of the cuts in the aid programme.
  Mr. K. Harvey Proctor: The hon. Gentleman has been critical of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the President of the United States. Is he aware of the view of Professor Peter Bauer, that overseas aid is detrimental to both donor and recipient countries?
  Mr. McElhone: That comment is not worthy of an answer. One has only to speak to people who are starving or to those who represent them to know what a callous question that is.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: Will the hon. Gentleman define absolute poverty? How does he calculate the figure of those suffering from that condition to be 800 million?
  Mr. McElhone: If the hon. Gentleman had taken an interest in the debates or in the reports of the Brandt commission, which comprised many experts on aid and development, he would know that the judgment is 800 million. I believe that each year 5 million people die because of poverty and about ¼ million children go blind because of the absence of fresh vegetables. The hon. Gentleman should listen to the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), who has tremendous experience of this issue because of his long service with the Brandt Commission. He should listen to voluntary agencies and to other people who work in the field.
  It is scandalous that in the financial year starting on 1 April there will be an 11 per cent. cut in real terms, compared with a projected overall budget target implying a 0.5 per cent. increase. That is political larceny on a grand scale. Is it not tragic that against a background of continuing cruel and callous treatment of the Third world, on the Front Bench not even a ministerial mouse squeaks? Those hon. Members who uttered a word went to the Back
  1130
  Benches. This is the first full-day debate in the lifetime of this Government on the Department's policy. We had a half day in Opposition Supply time. I challenge the Minister to describe the policies that he is trying to operate within his Department.
  The catalogue of misery does not end there. Last month the United States Administration cut their contribution to IDA—the part of the World Bank that gives low interest loans to poor nations. The United States President has decided on a massive 25 per cent. cut, and Britain has gladly and gleefully followed suit. What makes the cut more offensive is that the United States Administration are substantially increasing their spending on weapons of destruction, especially in chemical warfare.
  On 28 January the Prime Minister misled my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Dubs) on the IDA, when she stated that only a proportion of our sixth IDA contribution could be used during this period. If the right hon. Lady studies that answer again she will realise that to the credit of Norway, Sweden and Denmark, and to the eternal shame of Britain, those countries rejected the United States position and continue to make a full contribution to the IDA.
  The action by the United States Government means that India and some of the poorest African countries will suffer adversely and will be forced to try to borrow on the open market, not only to service their growing and standing debts, but in many cases just to survive at the barest level of existence.
  That is a policy that the Government and the United States Administration want the poorest countries to follow—"Get out into the market for any money that you require". The nonsense of it is that those countries, which are in the greatest need of assistance, are not sufficiently creditworthy to borrow anywhere except from the World Bank. It is a mockery to suggest to countries with such low incomes that they should obtain money from the Eurodollar market, when one knows that such an attempt would be rejected out of hand.
  Those countries have to fall back on the iniquitous IMF, which, under pressure from the West, especially the United States, imposes rigorous conditions. It insists on extremely tough new targets for public spending cuts before agreeing to loans. It is a painful experience, as some of us know from earlier years. Those harsh conditions not only add to the crushing poverty in those countries, but they are leading to destabilisation and the creation of political unrest in countries from Costa Rica to the Sudan.
  Apart from the many millions of pounds lost in British orders because of the cutback in IDA funds, the real concern is the threat to some of our international banks because of the serious difficulties that Third world countries have in trying to service—never mind cut back—their outstanding debts. Some of those banks have suffered adversely from loans to Poland and Turkey.
  There is a real possibility that one bank could be in trouble if one or more Third world countries were to renege on their debts. In the present climate, the knock-on effect on the British economy would be too serious to contemplate. I have always believed that the collapse of the Creditanstalt Bank in Austria in May 1931 did more to encourage the excesses of Adolf Hitler than the Reichstag fire, because of the mass unemployment that it created.

  1131
  The message to the Government is stark and clear. Aid is not a charity or a handout. It is, by the necessity for interdependence, essential to the economic survival of the world.
  Another area of development policy in which the Government are extremely vulnerable is aid to the poorest. The Government and the Prime Minister consistently tell us that their priority is to provide aid to the poorest. If that is the case. why did the Government at the Paris conference in September resist until the very last minute the proposal to accept the target of 0.15 per cent. of GNP to assist the least developed countries? In a totally discreditable way, because of much pressure, no doubt, from the Treasury, they agreed, provided that no date was set for Britain to reach the target.
  The previous Government reached 0.14 per cent. of GNP in 1979. I have five questions for the Minister, which he should be able to answer when he winds up the debate. What is the latest figure, at the nearest available date, for bilateral aid to the least developed countries? Why has the figure for 1980 not yet been published? The Minister must have it in his brief, so perhaps he will tell us when he replies. When does he expect to reach the target figure of 0.15 per cent. of GNP to the least developed countries? What specially designed projects costing £2 million or more for the poorest groups has the Minister approved over the past 12 months? What was the total value of those projects in the past 12 months?
  The giving by the Prime Minister of £30 million to Mexico, which is the fifth richest country in the world in oil and gas, to build a steel mill hardly smacks of aid to the poorest. I still wish to know more about the £150 million recently given to India for a steel mill. I am told that that aid did not go through the proper departmental procedures.
  Mr. Archie Hamilton: Under the hon. Gentleman's Government were we not still giving aid to Saudi Arabia?
  Mr. McElhone: I fear for the Government if they have to depend on such support.
  Dame Judith Hart: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is "No".
  Mr. McElhone: I repeat that there is deep concern inside and outside the House about the £150 million aid to India to build a steel mill, which I understand has not been started. I am reliably informed that that vast sum, which is a substantial proportion of the aid budget, did not go through the proper departmental procedures—the project committee. Just to please the Prime Minister, will the Minister try to justify that aid during the debate?
  I should fail in my duty if I did not mention the scandalous collusion between the Government and the United States Administration over Nicaragua. After 40 years of Samoza'a dictatorship, Nicaragua has emerged as a free country, but in the process it has become almost bankrupt. Because of United States pressure Britain is now the only EEC member that does not give Nicaragua assistance. I do not count the derisory £30,000 that we gave in 1981–82. We do not help Nicaragua, because President Reagan says so. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), myself and others have made requests, but the Government will not even reopen the embassy in Managua.
  1132
  The situation is critical. The United States Administration openly published the fact that they are running training camps in Florida and in certain South American States for Samoza's ex-national guards. The Foreign Secretary mentioned the situation in the House a few weeks ago. Are we to have another Bay of Pigs? The Government should convey to the United States how critical a position we shall be in if they take that critical and hasty step.
  How much longer can we have a Prime Minister who endangers the country's standing and integrity by riding shotgun on the wagon of the dangerous old Californian in the White House? I have visited Nicaragua in the past 18 months. Anyone who talks to the Mexican and other Governments in the area knows that the United States is playing a dangerous game in. Nicaragua and El Salvador, and they seem to have the overt support of the British Government.
  I make it crystal clear to the Prime Minister that on this issue, as on many others, such as nuclear weapons, chemical warfare and cuts in overseas aid, in supporting President Reagan she is not speaking for the Opposition. The world is too small for anything but peace and friendship. I hope that we shall have a change in philosophy. I hope that the next time the Prime Minister meets President Reagan she will show him a copy of the doctrine of General George C. Marshall, the architect of the Marshall plan, which states:
  "Our policy is directed, not against any country, or doctrine, but against hunger, poverty, desperation, and chaos."
  That was the policy that saved Europe after the Second World War, for the Allies as well as the enemy. That type of policy, in complete contradiction of what is coming from the present incumbent of the White House, will save world peace today.
  Mr. Raymond Whitney: President Reagan and Mr. Haig have offered Poland massive help precisely on the lines of the Marshall plan, conditional only on the observance by the Polish regime of human rights agreements of the sort signed at Gdansk. Do the Opposition support and endorse that generous offer?
  Mr. McElhone: I am dubious about supporting any offers made by the American President. I resent the double standards of the Reagan Administration. They are concerned about Turkey and Poland, but they give no aid to the starving people in Nicaragua, and they interfere in El Salvador's affairs. I respect the position of Solidarity. I have publicly spoken against the activities of General Jaruzelski and the Soviets, but we get fed up with hearing only of the desperate situation in Poland, when there are also problems in Chile, Nicaragua and El Salvador. We cannot have double standards.
  With over 3 million unemployed, with the rapid pace of technology destroying thousands of jobs each year, with our manufacturing base shrinking each year and with the need to finance an ever-expanding social umbrella for the growing numbers of elderly, unemployed and others unable to work, time is not on our side. One hears of amazing technological progress in Japan, where &£9 million will buy a manufacturing unit to do the work of 500 men for 24 hours a day, with no quality control problems because of the absence of the human factor. That should make us think about the need to expand our manufacturing base. If the Government will not accept the moral

  1133
  argument for a realistic aid programme, or the philosophical argument, at least as a Government of so-called business entrepreneurs they should understand the economic case for helping the Third world, but they do not.
  I give just two or three examples, because my hon. Friends will develop other arguments during the debate. Can the Minister tell me, in all logic, why we continue to charge full-cost fees to overseas students? The result is a drop of almost 40 per cent. in the numbers coming from Third world countries, especially from the poorest ones. The nonsense is that these students are being snapped up by France, Russia and other East European countries, which recognise what this Government are too blind to see, which is that when these youngsters are trained they will return to their own countries, probably to positions of importance in industry, commerce and Government. They will not buy British goods. They will buy the French and the Russian equipment in which they have been trained. We are losing the seed corn of the next generation of British export orders. If the Government ever doubt that view, they only have to speak to the Foreign Secretary and hear of the criticism that he is receiving from Malaysia and the danger to the valuable orders from that country.
  Mr. Bowen Wells: We are debating the aid budget. It would be fair if the hon. Gentleman would make it clear that Her Majesty's Government have increased the amount of money available for students' grants, thus increasing the possibility of students with the least means coming to this country. The number of overseas students who will not be coming are, generally speaking, from the higher income brackets in their country.
  Mr. McElhone: I have read the Government's figures—which is a hazardous exercise these days. I understand that they have cut back £100 million over three years. That might not fall within the confines of the budget of the Minister for Overseas Development because the Department of Education and Science has a say in this, but I do not see any change or any return to the logic of helping students from the poorest Third world countries. I hope that I am wrong. I await the figures from the Government or a statement from the Minister today.
  Another economic failure of the Government is seen in their handling of the European development fund. We make an 18 per cent. contribution to it, but hardly ever achieve a 10 per cent. return in industrial orders. That is because the Government have neither the guts nor the guile to stand up to the French, who have unfairly held on to the development commissioner's portfolio for almost 20 years, which ensures that they do exceptionally well when it comes to orders from this fund. What are the Minister's views on the Court of Auditors' report, which expressed grave reservations on the conduct of that fund? That, together with the millions of pounds in lost orders because of our support for President Reagan's cuts to the International Development Association, serves further to condemn the Government's abysmal record in the economic management of the country.
  When a political system generates such cynicism by its failure to respond to a moral cause, it is sowing the seeds of its own destruction. When the Prime Minister tells us that aid is a handout and that the poor must carry an equal
  1134
  burden when public expenditure is cut, she adds strength to those who argue that parliamentary democracy is an irrelevant sham and that the only way forward for the people of the South is violent, bloody revolution.
  That in itself is bad enough. The failure of Cancun, with an open-ended and undefined commitment to global negotiations its only achievement, has had an even more damaging effect on political relationships between North and South. We might pay a price for our selfishness and greed, because, although they are used to being poor and to suffering and hunger, the poor countries sit on most of the precious minerals and commodities. The day that they organise together they can bring the industrial North almost to a halt very quickly. It may be that the programme for survival about which Brandt speaks is a programme of survival for this country as well.
  The Government are cowardly and miserable. They are so afraid to justify their aid policy that they leave it to the Opposition to provide parliamentary time from the small number of days allocated to them. They are so afraid to try to justify their policy that they allow only 10 minutes per month for questions on this subject on the Floor of the House. They are so afraid to let the public know what they are doing about aid and development that they did not just cut the development education started by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart);, they abolished it.
  By any standard of justice, fairness or compassion the Government stand condemned, for they have destroyed the good name of the British Government around the world. I conclude by challenging the Prime Minister to give the British electorate the soonest possible opportunity to make its judgment. It is my belief, and not just the belief of the 3 million unemployed in this country, that by their votes people will provide the unanswerable case for casting the debris of the Government into the political abyss so that a more caring, compassionate and understanding Labour Government will once again be restored to their rightful stewardship of this country.
  4.47 pm
  The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Neil Marten): I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
  "this House, recalling the Prime Minister's commitment to the Third World at last year's conference in Ottawa, Melbourne and Cancun, and recognising the prime importance of trade and private capital flows to the progress of developing countries, welcomes the Government's decision to maintain an aid programme in excess of £1,000 million pounds, which provides a substantial and effective response to the real needs of the developing countries whilst helping to safeguard jobs in exporting industries in this country.".
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) for allowing me to reply to many of his points in my wind-up speech, for which I will seek the leave of the House to speak at the end of the debate. He accused the Prime Minister of having no credibility in the developing world. It is a pity that he does not go enough to the developing world to hear what is being said there. I go a great deal—I am off tomorrow. The Prime Minister has credibility in the developing world. It is nonsense to say that she does not.
  Further, to say that the Prime Minister is destroying the good name of Britain in the developing world is rubbish, as the hon. Gentleman would know if he went there. Perhaps he cannot do so because of the cost, but he should

  1135
  take every opportunity to travel there to find the reaction of the developing world to the aid programme. The hon. Gentleman's speech was one of gloom and pessimism, and he seemed to drag up every little possible tin can that he could throw.
  The hon. Gentleman moaned that only 10 minutes a month were allowed for questions to the Minister for Overseas Development. That is a matter for the usual channels to arrange, and if he likes to chance his arm by suggesting that Overseas Development questions should be put in with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions which have a much longer period I would be open to discussions.
  Mr. McElhone: Will the Minister assure us that, when we approach the Leader of the House, he will support us in our request for additional time? In that way, those who table questions will have a better deal. For 1 February 17 questions were tabled, but only three were answered.
  Mr. Marten: I cannot give the assurance for which the hon. Gentleman asks, simply because time for other matters would have to be cut if more time were allowed for Overseas Development. I would welcome discussions to decide when questions to my Department should be tabled—either on their own or mixed up with the Foreign and Commomwealth Office questions.
  I welcome the opportunity that the debate provides of enabling the House to consider a subject of great interest to all hon. Members, but one that can too easily be lost from view in the welter of our domestic preoccupations in Britain. The Government are deeply concerned with the severe problems faced by many developing countries. Their struggle against poverty, hunger and disease has been made more difficult by the oil price rises and the world economic recession of recent years. We are committed to helping the developing countries overcome those problems, both on humanitarian grounds and to provide conditions in which political stability and freedom can thrive.
  For the developing countries as a whole private flows are a much more significant source of capital for development than is official aid. The developing countries that have experienced the fastest economic growth are those that have provided conditions likely to attract private investment. Other countries would benefit from adopting similar policies. Britain has had a major role in providing and facilitating flows of private capital for development. Our abolition of exchange controls has made such flows easier, while the efficiency of our financial institutions is an essential factor.
  Mr. Barry Sheerman: If we must look to private investment to solve some of the dreadful problems that we are discussing, should we not remember that the beneficiaries of most of that money will probably be those in the best position to help themselves? What will we do about those who will not receive that money?
  Mr. Marten: That is precisely the point that I am making. Government aid is devoted, in large part, to the least developed countries that cannot obtain financial flows because of their credit worthiness.
  Nevertheless, we recognise that private investment is likely to benefit mainly the better-off developing countries. As I told the House in my statement on aid
  1136
  policy two years ago, we therefore recognise that official aid continues to be an essential element in development especially for the poorest countries.
  But for the developing world in general, it is generally recognised that aid is not the only, or even the most important, answer. The World Bank has stressed that the economic health of the developed countries is a vital condition for growth in the developing ones. The most useful contribution we can make is to restore stable growth to our economy and maintain an open trading system. That will enable us not only to give more aid but, more importantly, to provide a growing market for Third world exports. That can be achieved only through bringing inflation under control. It is, therefore, essential to I min public expenditure, and that, unfortunately, has required cuts in many areas, including the aid programme.
  The aid programme will, therefore, fall in cash by some 2 per cent. between this financial year and the next. Clearly, the fall in real terms will be greater by an amount depending on the actual rate of inflation, which the Government are working to keep to a minimum. Nevertheless, the programme is substantial, and the gross aid programme for the current year exceeded £1 billion for the first time and will remain at more than £1 billion next year. Only four countries—the United States, France, West Germany and Japan—give more aid than Britain, and those all have stronger economies than ours. It is, however, simplistic to judge an aid programme just in terms of figures for particular years. It is more important to look at what it achieves. I believe that the British aid programme stands up well to any comparison on that basis.
  The policy I outlined to the House two years ago had as its core a greater attention to political, industrial and commercial factors alongside the developmental ones which remain basic to it. I will say more in a moment about the ways in which we have altered the emphasis of the programme to reflect those other factors, but as there appear to be some misunderstandings about our commitment to ensuring that our aid programme contributes to real development I shall say a few words about that.
  Britain gives a much higher proportion of its aid programme to the poorest countries than does any other major donor. During the last few years of the Labour Administration, the poorest countries received about 60 per cent. of our bilateral aid. We have maintained a similar proportion with India, Bangladesh, Kenya, Tanzania, Malawi and Pakistan among the major recipients. In both 1979 and 1980 the figure was more than 60 per cent. That makes rather curious the words of the Opposition motion
  "considers that these actions only serve to confirm the callous indifference of Her Majesty's Government towards the 800 million people who are living in absolute poverty".
  Dame Judith Hart: I am sure that the Minister is aware that, within the aid programme, project spending is calculated two or three years in advance. The figures that he has quoted today, which have been quoted internationally by his colleagues, relate to the Labour Government's programme. I know that he cannot give precise figures for forward commitments, but we want to know what the figures will be this year and next year when the Conservative rather than the Labour programme its represented.
  Mr. Marten: When the right hon. Lady was in my job, about 60 per cent. of aid went to the poorest countries. In 1979–80 the figure was slightly more than 60 per cent. I do not yet have the figure for 1981.
  I reaffirmed our policy of concentrating our bilateral aid on the poorest countries—where it is most needed—at the United Nations conference on the least developed countries in September.
  During the past 12 months, I have approved several proposals which will be of benefit to the poor within developing countries. In India, for example, a rural health project, a low-cost housing project and two major fertiliser plants will help the poor. In Zimbabwe, there will be a land resettlement programme for the poor. There will be extensions to the sewerage project in Cairo, a rural water supply project in Swaziland, and veterinary and agricultural engineering projects in the Yemen Arab Republic. There is a long list of many more proposals.
  Mr. Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler: What about the Turks and Caicos Islands?
  Mr. Marten: I shall deal with that point when I reply. I shall enjoy doing so.
  We are also substantial contributors to multilateral aid programmes that concentrate on the poorest countries—in particular through various programmes of the European Community, which accounted last year for well over 10 per cent. of our total aid, and the International Development Association. Hon. Members will be aware that the first and second instalments of the United States' contribution to the latest IDA replenishment have not been appropriated in full by Congress. We and other members agreed to pay our first instalments in full despite that. For the second instalment, in accordance with the terms of the IDA sixth agreement, we and most other member of IDA will limit our contributions to preserve the burden-sharing principle that is basic to the IDA. I agree that Norway and Sweden have not done so, but all other countries have. To offset that reduction, $800 million of additional lending on World Bank terms will be made available to IDA borrowers.
  Mr. James Johnson: We have listened for a long time to a long catalogue of local schemes in various parts of the Commonwealth and elsewhere. Can the Minister honestly say that, for example, for Africa, he is getting more money now out of his Cabinet colleagues, and that he is upping his job, so to speak? Is his Department doing more work for the millions of people in need?
  Mr. Marten: I said in my opening statement that the aid is being cut by 2 per cent., from £1,037 million last year to £1,017 million this year. That is the measure of the cut in cash terms. As for value, we are probably getting better value as we improve our techniques in giving aid.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler rose—
  Mr. Marten: I must get on. A lot of hon. Members wish to speak, and it is already 5 o'clock.
  Our aid is on generous terms. All official aid to the poorest countries is in grant form. We have also taken new steps to ensure that our aid is effective—a matter that I consider to be of the highest importance. Our assistance needs to form part of a coherent development strategy, which is determined by the developing country itself. It is
  1138
  up to the Governments of these countries to decide upon their own priorities, and we cannot force our views upon them. However, where the right conditions exist, well-planned aid that is well executed can have a significant impact. We have now developed a more rigorous approach to monitoring the implementation of projects and programmes to ensure that maximum value is obtained for our money, and I have greatly increased our resources for evaluation of completed projects, which is enabling us to learn from previous experience. I have found on my visits to the field that British aid has a good reputation for being practical and relatively free from lengthy procedures.
  One of the most valuable aspects of British aid is the comparatively large amount of technical co-operation that we provide. Over one-third of our bilateral aid takes this form. The transfer of expertise through provision of British experts and consultancies—training both in Britain and overseas for key people from developing countries—can be very cost-effective, particularly when directed towards developing and sustaining the institutions and structures that will enable the developing countries to use effectively the investment resources available to them.
  One problem in a number of developing countries is the lack of management and marketing training. We should encourage those countries to seek such training in this country, as we have considerable expertise in that connection. Britain, with its long history of links with the Third world, has a great deal of experience to offer. At the end of 1980, there were some 7,000 experts, supported by the British Government, under bilateral technical cooperation arrangements, and we took special steps last year to try to maintain the numbers of aid-financed students and trainees here in Britain.
  Despite the pressures on aid programme resources, we propose to increase aid advances to the Commonwealth Development Corporation from £30 million in 1981–82 to £34 million in 1982–83, and we have given it a planning figure of £37 million for 1983–84. In addition, the corporation will be allowed to borrow in foreign currency on approved terms with a Government guarantee up to £15 million a year in each of the next three financial years. This demonstrates in real terms the importance that the Government attach to the valuable role that CDC has played in overseas development through investment in projects that will help to increase the wealth and employment of the countries concerned and, at the same time, yield a reasonable return on the money invested—a role that I know from personal experience is equally welcomed by the countries in which it operates.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I thank the Minister for giving way. The facts about the CDC that I think he has just announced for the first time—perhaps he will confirm that—may be of great significance. Will he say whether the policy of the CDC to assist people most in need, particularly smallholders in subsistence agriculture, is still maintained under the new arrangements? Or does he think that the CDC should pay greater attention to the announcement two years ago to which he referred, which was a departure from the principles laid down in the Labour Government's White Paper, published by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart)?
  Mr. Marten: The CDC still operates in the same way, trying to help the poorest nations. May I correct the hon. Gentleman and say that I made the announcement about a fortnight ago, but it was in a written answer.
  I should like to pay a particular tribute to the outstanding contributions made by British voluntary agencies. In recognition of this, the Government provide funds through their joint funding scheme to help these agencies extend their developmental work among the poorest groups in developing countries. I have seen to it that the provision for joint funding has continued to rise.
  I am also impressed by the excellent contribution by the volunteer sending societies, particularly in the poorest countries. At the end of last year, there were almost 900 British volunteers. We have maintained the value of our financial support to the British volunteer programme.
  The Overseas Development Administration meets 90 per cent. of the agreed budget costs of the sending societies in the form of a grant and, following consultations with them, I propose, subject to parliamentary approval, to increase our support by 22 per cent. in cash terms to over &£4 million in 1982–83. That will allow the number of new volunteers to be sent into the field this year to be increased to about 600, compared with about 520 last year, and a strengthening of the administrative support available in the United Kingdom and overseas.
  Another area where I have decided that we should do more is in relation to population activities. This matter was raised at Cancun. As announced in the House earlier this week, I intend to increase our contributions to multilateral agencies in this field to £6 million in the next financial year. We also hope to spend more on population in our bilateral programmes.
  I have described some of the ways in which we have sought to ensure that our aid is effective in developmental terms. Now let me say something about the new emphasis on responsiveness to political, industrial and commercial considerations.
  We have maintained a high concentration of aid on the Commonwealth, reflecting our close political links and the great needs of many Commonwealth countries. The successful establishment of a programme in Zimbabwe has been an excellent example of how aid can both contribute to a political settlement and be spent in ways which really benefit the country concerned.
  We have also increased the provision that we make for funds to be deployed at short notice in response to urgent needs that often have political implications. We have thus been able, for example, to make a significant contribution to ameliorating the plight of the refugees from Afghanistan. That is a way in which we have devoted more to the political aspect of our aid.
  At the same time we have worked to improve the industrial and commercial benefits of our aid programme to Britain. We have done so, not by sacrificing the principle that all aid spending must contribute to the development of the recipient country, but by seeking actively ways of promoting such development at the same time as encouraging orders for Britain.
  As a very significant example, I refer to the major steel plant in India, for which a British firm recently received a letter of intent. I recognise that the initial steps to earmark British aid for this project were taken by the previous Administration. I have had no hesitation in
  1140
  carrying through the offer of substantial aid support for this project, which we expect will be of major benefit both to Britain and to India.
  Bilateral capital aid continues to be largely tied to British goods and services. Aid-financed consultancies can and do offer prospects of further business financed commercially or through international lending agencies.
  Major projects such as the Victoria dam in Sri Lanka provide the firms involved with an opportunity 1.o demonstrate their expertise. The £50 million we have committed to renewing and expanding the sewerage system in Cairo, as well as providing clear benefits through improved health to the poorest people in that country, presents substantial opportunities for British contractors to enhance their technical reputation in new techiques for tunnel building and is associated with a further £100 million of export orders for Britain.
  Hon. Members will know that the previous Administration established an aid trade provision for the support of particular contracts with British firms, and in particular to help them match subsidised credit terms offered by their competitors. It would not be in Britain's interest to stimulate an international credit race, since we could not win it. But since many of our competitors are actively supporting their firms through aid and through mixed credit, we must have a means of matching this competition, and we have, therefore, increased the size of this provision. I consider each case personally to ensure that it meets our developmental criteria as well as the industrial and commercial criteria for which my right hon. Friends are responsible. Since the beginning of 1978, when the right hon. Member for Lanark introduced the scheme, a commitment of £174 million from the aid programme has opened the way to contracts concluded or under negotiation worth £760 million. Therefore, I congratulate her and—
  Dame Judith Hart: What percentage are they?
  Mr. Marten: I do not have those figures with me
  The Government have also taken steps to improve the flow of information to British firms about the important opportunities open to them as a result of our membership of international financial institutions and other multilateral agencies.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler rose—
  Mr. Marten: I shall finish my remarks.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: The right hon. Gentleman should listen.
  Mr. Marten: Perhaps the hon. Member will ask the right hon. Member for Lanark about the percentages.
  The motion before the House refers to the succession of multilateral meetings which the Prime Minister attended last year, culminating in the Cancun summit.
  These meetings provided an opportunity for constructive discussion among developed and developing countries at the highest level. The Cancun summit itself was designed not to take decisions, but to promote a new depth of mutal understanding between world leaders. That was an important aspect of it. We have tried to build on this in preparation for global negotiations in New York, where

  1141
  we have worked actively to promote a consensus for the launching of negotiations. Although full agreement has not yet been reached, useful progress has been made in these informal consultations.
  Since I have been Minister for Overseas Development, I have visited a wide variety of developing countries and seen for myself the operation of British aid in the field. I have been struck particularly by the importance of recipient countries' own policies if they are to develop and if our aid is to be effective. I have also been impressed by the valuable contribution that often relatively small amounts of British aid have had in the right circumstances.
  I see no contradiction between a concern for the needs of developing countries and due regard for Britain's interests through increasing the industrial and commercial benefits to Britain of the aid we provide. Trade and private flows will continue to play the main part in the process of development, and that is entirely right. We shall, nevertheless, maintain an aid programme that is substantial, effective and responsive to the real needs of the developing world, particularly the poorest.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Seaker: Before I call the right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart), I would point out that 25 right hon. and hon. Members have indicated that they wish to speak and I appeal for short contributions.
  5.13 pm
  Dame Judith Hart: For perhaps the first time, I must apologise to the House, because I shall have to leave at about 7 o'clock and travel to Sheffield to chair a conference. I much regret this and apologise for the fact that I cannot, therefore, hear the Minister wind up.
  It is nice in one way but extremely galling in another that the Minister's pride in aid programme achievements should be related almost entirely to programmes begun in the last Labour Government's time. It will be interesting to know what the Minister is proud of when we get a little further into his Government's time.
  I address myself to the Prime Minister's amendment because it goes to the crux of the issue. I know that many of the Minister's hon. Friends believe that development is not necessarily about aid and aid programmes. Such programmes are an essential element in the whole complex matter of the interdependence between ourselves and countries in the South. However, they are not the only aspects and the amendment recognises the prime importance of trade and private capital flows.
  I take the Minister up on his remarks. Both private and public trade and capital flows are of immense importance; let us consider the position, what is happening and what the Government are not doing. I much regret that no Treasury Minister is on the Front Bench because these issues stretch far beyond that now rather humble part of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—which is represented by overseas aid—into the very heart of the Treasury in terms of the international monetary system, the IMF, IMF conditionality and so many of the deep factors presently affecting the Third world.
  Perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to tell his Treasury colleagues that it would be a good thing if they had been here to listen to what has been said. In parenthesis, the proposal emerging from my party for the
  1142
  future is not only to re-create a separate ministry of overseas development, but that we create a ministry which has considerably stronger functions than in the past. We suggest that it should be a ministry which engages in most, if not all, of British relationships with the Third world. It would not only be responsible for the World Bank and the international development banks but also for IMF relationships with developing countries and for many trade relationships with them. It is as well that these facts are known and that that is likely to emerge from the agreement within my party.
  Taking capital flows—
  Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: Can the right hon. Lady tell the House to what extent such a Ministry would also be concerned with the imposition of import controls if a Labour Government were in office and to what extent she believes that such controls might be of benefit to developing countries? What impact and controls would they have? Would she also tell the House, if a Labour Government took Britain out of Europe, whether that would have an impact on Britain's world food productive capacity and the subsequent effect it would have on world food prices?
  Dame Judith Hart: The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Mr. Douglas-Mann) is attempting to engage the rest of my speech. On his first point, under our proposition it is probable that the Ministry I suggest would engage in negotiations with Third world countries involving our policy on trade. If he has read the Labour Party documentation fully, he will know that we differentiate between the newly industrialised countries and the poorer countries. I am sure that he still has those documents on his bookshelves.
  I could spend half an hour on his second point concerning the EEC. I was in Brussels about two weeks ago on that subject and I should be happy to talk to him about it in the corridor but I shall not allow myself to be interrupted. I have no doubt that entry to the EEC has diminished the British effort to help the poorer developing countries, and getting out of it will enable us to do better. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] I would happily speak for half an hour on this subject. Any hon. Member who wishes to know more can write to me. I have all the facts and figures.
  Mr. David Alton: It is two or three years since we debated this subject and I remember participating in that debate with the right hon. Lady. Although I agree with the argument to some extent, does she accept that if it means more reductions in aid in the future—there were reductions of £15 million in 1976 and in 1977—simply re-establishing a Ministry for Overseas Development will be of no benefit to ordinary people in Third world countries?
  Dame Judith Hart: I cannot be held responsible for the one reduction, which was made when an hon. Gentleman opposite was in charge of the Ministry.
  I turn to the debt problem, capital flows, and flows in general. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) mentioned the debt problem in developing countries. We must be clear where we are on this matter. It was strongly emphasised in the Brandt report. It is estimated that the debt of the Third world will rise by 15 per cent. this year to $524 billion,

  1143
  or £250 billion. Interest charges are likely to rise by 22 per cent. to £55 billion this year. Moreover, private bank loans have risen to about half the total debt service burden of developing countries.
  The interest charged on the debt of rather better-off developing countries—not necessarily middle income countries, but not the poorest—has almost doubled, from 7 per cent. to 13.3 per cent. My hon. Friend is quite right. It is well known that if one of the major developing countries with an enormous debt problem—probably one of the middle income countries, possibly a Latin American country—were to default, it could, theoretically, bring one of the world's major banks tumbling down. That will not happen because the banking sector will not let it happen. It is also unlikely that the banks would allow a situation to arise in which such a country had to default, but it is theoretically possible. That is the measure of the Third world's desperation in relation to debt problems.
  How will Third world countries cope? Will they earn more from exports? I can only deal with the problem in shorthand. Since the oil price rise in 1973, many developing countries have inevitably been stricken by the following factors.
  The first is the rise in oil prices. That was bad enough for us but many developing countries are completely or almost completely oil-dependent and the price rise hit them much harder. Secondly, inflation in the West meant that developing countries had to pay more for imported manufactured goods which are essential for development. Thirdly, the depression in Western industrialised countries meant that a number of their major basic products fetched a lower price on the world market. If the West is in depression, we pay less for rubber and copper and prices slump.
  If they have to pay more for essential fuel and essential development imports and receive less for their exports, how do they cope? They have to borrow. This is where the question of capital flows, private or public, comes in.
  Mr. Anthony Nelson: The right hon. Lady mentioned three possible ways in which developing countries could try to meet the far greater demands for hard currency to service cumulative debts in future years. A further important possibility was referred to by Mr. Clausen, president of the World Bank. Projections for the number of migrant workers over the next 10 years suggest that extra transfer payments of some £40 billion per annum could be earned. Is not that an important source of income with implications for the immigration policies of developed countries?
  Dame Judith Hart: That is an interesting point, which we might consider for a moment, although frankly I do not think that it is worth considering for much longer than that. In a world depression, there is less demand for migrant workers. Moreover, I do not think that we shall resolve the global crisis by simply saying that people must move out of their own countries and live away from their families.
  Mr. Eric Deakins: "Get on your bike."
  Dame Judith Hart: Yes, that is the philosophy, and it is no answer to the global crisis.
  I shall give some figures that I researched for a lecture some months ago. I mentioned the Eurocurrency market in our last debate on this subject. Here we are talking about
  1144
  capital flows, particularly private capital flows—or rather the lack of them. It is estimated that the Eurocurrency market has now increased to more than $1,300 billion, and its net size after adjustment for inter-bank depositing has risen to some $650 billion. It is reckoned that the amount of what one can only call hot money, because this money is chasing around from deutschmark to yen to dollars, now in the Eurocurrency market exceeds all the currency reserves of all the countries by a factor of four.
  Where are the capital flows? They could come from the enormous deposits in the Eurocurrency market, but they do not, because hot money likes to make a quick profit and these Eurocurrency dollar reserves cannot make such profits by investing in the type of infrastructure which for the developing countries is the only basis for development. There is no profit in building schools, hospitals or roads, so the capital does not flow. Conservative Members who seriously wish to consider private rather than public capital flows must recognise that only public money is likely to finance the non-profitable infrastructure which is the only basis for development.
  What about the IMF, and the action that the Government should take in trying to make some progress in recycling the $1,300 billion? It should be remembered, moreover, that at any given moment some $3 trillion are engaged in the paper exchanges on futures and the commodities produced by the Third world. There, too, is a tremendous area of profit and money.
  How does one deal with recycling? If the Minister for Overseas Development really believes, and the Prime Minister really believes, as I think she does, that private capital flows can solve every problem, why are they and the Chancellor of the Exchequer not considering initiatives that Britain could take to try to achieve some recycling of private capital which is there to be recycled?
  That means dealing with the IMF. But the IMF will not respond to that kind of approach unless there is some tough argument from its members and major contributors who have some strength to their elbow. Germany might put the argument, or France, under President Mitterand. It is unlikely that President Reagan would do so. The United Kingdom could, and some of the other contributors would assist us.
  It is a matter of increasing special drawing rights. SDR .s have always been seen as one of the mechanisms for transferring money to developing countries. It must be remembered, however, that until now 75 per cent. of the allocation of SDRs from the IMF has gone to developed countries, not to developing countries. Indeed, over the past few years, the United States has received almost as much SDR allotment as all the developing countries put together. This is a big area for challenge and reform. I am sorry that a Treasury Minister is not present. It is clear to the Opposition that a major thrust is needed towards reforming the IMF so that it serves world interests—not on a basis of narrowly defined classical economics, but with an understanding of the economic requirements of development in the Third world.
  It is partly a matter of staffing, partly a matter of detail and partly a matter of defining critera much more carefully. The present criteria of the IMF conditionality are appalling when applied to a developing country. They are to cut wages, to devalue, to deal with the money supply, and to cut public expenditure. That combination is a recipe for far greater destabilisation than President

  1145
  Reagan appears to think the Cubans are wreaking in the Caribbean and Central America. That is a total recipe for destabilising democracy.
  The Government have not the slightest understanding of what is required or what needs to be done. I urge that the Government begin to have that understanding and quickly to take some initiatives.
  5.34 pm
  Mr. Reg Prentice: I intend to abstain in the vote tonight because I believe that the aid programme has been disproportionately cut by the Government and that that trend should be reversed. I shall deal with one or two other points before I give my reasons for that belief.
  I have no desire to attack my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) who is my constituency neighbour and the Minister responsible for the programme. He has a long record of dedication on this subject and brings to it a sincerity and commitment that we all admire.
  If I needed a reason to change my mind about voting this evening I would have found it in the Opposition motion, which I consider to be objectionable. The Opposition's reference to
  "the callous indifference … towards the 800 million people who are living in absolute poverty"
  is a foolish and hysterical phrase, even by the current standards of the Labour Party. The disappointments that arise from British performance and the extent to which Britain has failed to measure up to the challenge of world poverty have applied under both Labour and Conservative Governments with only marginal differences between the two.
  In mitigation of what I propose to go on to say, I accept totally the phrase in the Government amendment about
  "the prime importance of trade and of private capital".
  The developing world needs more trade, more private capital and more official development assistance.
  I have supported publicly over the last three years the need for cuts in public expenditure, perhaps more severe than those the Government have made. During the Budget debate last year, I gave examples of what I considered could have been larger cuts in public expenditure in the Department of Health and Social Security where I had served as a Minister. It is always difficult in that position to argue for a higher programme for a particular Department. Nevertheless, I do so. As the Government amendment says, the current outflow is about £1 billion a year at a time when total Government expenditure now exceeds £100 billion. In other words, we are talking about a little less than 1 per cent. of public expenditure. We are talking about a little less than 1p in every pound contributed by taxpayers to the Exchequer.
  The Government, on coming to office, recognised some programmes as being special cases. They recognised that there had to be an improvement in the defence programme to the extent of 3 per cent. a year in real terms. That was right. Some of the reasons, although not all of them, for making a special case of the aid programme are similar to the reasons for expanding the defence programme. Neither this Government nor their predecessors have given to this Department the priority that is required. The Government recognise the need for an aid programme. They reject the view associated with
  1146
  Professor Bauer. They reject the view of the leader writers of The Daily Telegraph. They reject the view of many men and women of all political persuasions throughout the country who ask why money should be given to ungrateful foreigners. The Government accept, as did the previous Government, and as do virtually all Governments of the Western world, the need for an aid programme. The degree of priority given to it is insufficient.
  One has to return to the classic arguments for an aid programme. Those arguments have to be repeated over and over again, and will no doubt still have to be repeated in 20 years' time. But they have gathered extra strength and momentum due to recent events. That is why the Brandt report made a bigger impact on world opinion than the Pearson report 10 years previously, although both were excellent in the context of their time.
  There are three classic sets of argument. There is the moral argument. There is the argument in terms of the interdependence of our domestic economic problems and those of the developing world. There are the arguments that can be grouped under the headings of foreign policy or strategic considerations. I accept that some people support one set of arguments and not another.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) would probably be less enthusiastic than me about the strategic arguments, but enthusiastic for the first two arguments. In my view, all three arguments are valid. All three are gathering momentum. The moral arguments are self-evident. The most eloquent and compelling part of the inaugural speech of President Kennedy was his remark that developing countries should be helped to help themselves, not because the Communists were doing so or because we wanted their votes, but "because it is right". The words "because it is right" are all that need to be said. If the argument for aid and development assistance rested on those words, there would be no need for any further arguments.
  Those moral arguments become more compelling year by year because the gap grows. Every decade of this century has seen an enormous increase in the gap in living standards and the gap in opportunities between those who live in the developed countries and those in most of the developing countries. Of course, some of the developing countries are making a breakthrough but, by and large, the gap is growing.
  The gap grows in times of recession. At such times, the people of a country such as Britain might have to accept a diminution in their living standards averaging a few per cent., but the effect on a country such as India is far more devastating, and the gap becomes worse. Therefore, the moral case for aid and assistance becomes stronger.
  Every year that passes shows new evidence of the economic interdependence of all countries of the world, particularly those that depend on trade to the extent that Britain does. That argument is set out particularly well in the Brandt report and has emerged in much of the argument since. We are not losing the £1 billion referred to in the Government amendment. That money is counterbalanced to some degree by the repayment of old aid loans. The repayments are still coming in and benefiting us across the exchanges. Much of that £1 billion is spent on orders for goods associated with development projects, and provides orders for British firms and jobs for British workers.

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  There is also the indirect effect by which, if a project has been financed in the past through a development programme, the demand for spare parts, replacements and so on can lead to further orders for our firms later on.
  Another important point is the training element in our programme by which students come to Britain, and our experts go to the developing world. That leads to people in those countries becoming familiar with British goods and placing orders for them. Britain also receives orders from multilateral aid programmes—the United Nations agencies, the International Development Association and all the others. Britain receives orders that arise from other countries' aid as well as from our own aid. That has been a major factor.
  While I was a Minister at the Foreign Office the first time round, there was an agreed paper between the economists of the Overseas Development Ministry and the economists of the Treasury. Some took a little persuading, but the agreed paper was published in a learned journal. The paper showed that the effect of the aid programme over the years had been beneficial to the British balance of payments. The aid programme represented an element of sacrifice to the taxpayer but, on balance, it had been of benefit to the balance of payments. As the world moves out of recession and if we wish to avoid or mitigate further recessions, it is vital that we think more constructively and more positively about the need for increasing living standards in the developing world so as to help with the expansion of the world economy.
  I deliberately emphasise the arguments that I would describe as foreign policy or strategic arguments because some of my hon. Friends are keen on defence, but some may be sceptical about the need for the aid programme. I suggest to them that the two sets of arguments overlap.
  It is probably still true today, as it was when I sat at the Cabinet table, that in public expenditure discussions the defence budget is discussed completely separately from the aid budget. I do not believe that they should be so discussed. In many ways they are related. They have the same purpose—to preserve peace. The needs for a strong defence posture and for a growing aid programme are relevant to the preservation of peace. I shall make three brief points on this matter.
  First, there are a limited number of cases where we need to consider the economic strength of an ally. At the moment, we do that in the case of Turkey. Turkey has been a major recipient of British aid under Labour and Conservative Governments partly because it is a poorer country than we are, although not as poor as many of the other recipients of our aid programme, but mainly because the stability of Turkey in its exposed position on the Eastern flank of NATO is an essential element in the defence of Europe. It is for that good reason that Turkey should be aided. There may be other reasons for other countries, whether they are in NATO or not.
  Secondly, there is a much larger range of situations in which the instability of a country crucially placed in one of the trouble areas of the world represents a threat to peace both for it and for us. Zimbabwe has been mentioned in the debate. When the House passed legislation for the independence of Zimbabwe, there was a demand from both sides of the House for a major effort in development aid. The Government made a major provision, taking into account the constraints to which they were subject. They made a diplomatic effort to persuade other aid donors to participate.
  1148
  That was right. Whatever disappointments we may have about recent political developments in Zimbabwe, its stability is a vital element in the future of South Africa arid in the prospects of peace in that region. Our prospects for peace depend as much as anything else upon those parts of the world, where we could be dragged into a war by conflict between States with which we have friendly relations, for example, South Africa, the Middle East arid South-East Asia.
  Therefore, when we are investing in terms of development aid in those regions or when we are cooperating with the countries of those regions in terms of their trading or private investment needs, we are investing in peace. It is essential that we should do so. That should be considered in the defence context. We should consider not the defence and aid programmes as programmes competing for public funds, but as two programmes, both of which can be conducive to the maintenance of world peace.
  Thirdly, in the past decade we have seen a number of easy gains for Soviet imperialism in the Third world—in Vietnam, South Yemen, Ethiopia, Afghanistan and other places. Those gains were achieved sometimes by latching on to local independence movements or local revolutionary movements, infiltrating them and taking them over. The gains were achieved sometimes with the use of Cuban mercenaries. Afghanistan was gained by the direct intervention of Soviet forces. Those easy victories have been achieved by methods that the West will not and should not use. However, the West needs a strategy to answer those developments.
  Such a strategy involves many questions outside the debate. Among other things there is the case for stronger aid programmes to our friends in the developing world. That was one of the classic arguments behind the growth of the American aid programme some years ago. A period of disillusion set in because some people in the United States had expected too much in terms of an immediate quantifiable return for the aid that they were giving. Nevertheless, basically it was right to think in terms of the co-operation of powerful Western nations with countries in the developing world, which would be helpful to those countries, without overt political strings attached, but so that goodwill would be created. We must think much more along those lines.
  Mr. Douglas-Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that an additional point in his strategic argument, with which I agree, is that the rapid increase in the world population from about 4½ billion now to 6 billion or more by the turn of the century and continuing througout the next century is a major threat to world peace? Competition by the vastly increased population of the world for finite and slowly growing resources is another factor threatening world peace. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the argument in chapter 6 of Brandt that the best means of achieving a limitation of the world population is to generate rising living standards in the poorer parts of the world?
  Mr. Prentice: Generally, I accept that. The hon. Gentleman's last point is absolutely valid. The history of Britain and other countries tends to bear that out. Every problem that we have discussed in the debate will become much more severe with the rapid growth in world population.

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  It is tempting for people in Britain—given our serious economic problems—to become isolationist or self-pitying and to say that we have too many problems of our own to worry about the problems of those overseas. We have all heard that in our constituencies and elsewhere, from people of all political points of view.
  Those arguments are not only wrong but self-defeating. The future of Britain, of the European Community, and of the Western world can be seen only in the context of the whole human family. It is impossible to conceive that Britain and its neighbours will prosper in the years ahead unless the world economy makes some progress. Within that progress, there is a continuing and growing need for Western nations to do more to help the developing nations to help themselves. There are overwhelming reasons of morality and self-interest for doing that. Neither this Government's record nor that of previous Governments measures up to that challenge.
  5.51 pm
  Mr. David Alton: I must touch on four issues this evening. First, however, I should say that I listened with interest to the right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) and the two previous speakers. The right hon. Gentleman has had the immense experience of service in the Ministry himself. We note that he will be abstaining. I hope that some of his hon. and right hon. Friends will do the same. I should welcome it more if they were to join members of the official and unofficial Opposition later this evening in the Lobby. There was little in his argument with which I could disagree, or that seemed in conflict with what the hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) said.
  The right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart) talked about re-creating a Ministry for overseas aid and development. One problem is that sometimes we raise symbols as though they in themselves were vital, instead of getting down to fundamental questions. We are rehearsing the arguments of two years ago. I could not help but think that the Chamber had probably experienced such debates back in the 1960s when the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir. H. Wilson) established a separate overseas aid and development Ministry; in 1970, when the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), decided to integrate it into the Foreign Office; in 1974 when that decision was reversed by the right hon. Member for Huyton; and in 1980 when the Government decided to turn the whole thing on its head once more.
  It is more important that we should be discussing such things 'as the interdependence of our nation with other nations in the Northern and Southern hemispheres than concentrating on symbols and gestures—pure tokens which mean little to people who are suffering in the Third world.
  The four areas on which I should like to touch—I am conscious that many other hon. and right hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate, so I shall try not to be too long—are the opportunity costs and spending priorities of this and other Governments; self-interest, the enlightened determination of our overseas aid spending; Britain's standing in the world; and the humanitarian reasons why it is important that our budget on overseas aid and development should be increased rather than reduced.
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  Since the publication of the Brandt report, the plight of developing countries has occupied many column inches, has been debated in national Assemblies and Parliaments and has brought together Heads of Government at Ottawa, Cancun and Melbourne. Fifty-four Nobel prize winners issued a manifesto urging that more aid should be provided. Marco Panella, a Member for the European Assembly, decided to go on a hunger strike to persuade other Parliaments to respond to the plight of the needy in the Third world. If anything, since the publication of the Brandt report in 1980, the gulf between North and South, the affluent and the deprived, the haves and the have nots seems to have become greater.
  Twelve years ago, in October 1970, the United Nations passed resolution 2626 calling for 0.7 per cent. of our gross national product—the figure mentioned in the Opposition's motion—to be set aside in development aid. We in Britain live in one of the 12 richest countries, yet our total contribution is less than half of even that very modest target. The £972 million that Britain set aside for aid in 1981–82 represents only 0.34 per cent. of our gross national product.
  It is sometimes helpful to translate such statistics into terms that are more understandable to the public. This year the United States of America will spend more on potted plants and flowers than on overseas aid and development. We in Britain will spend nearly 10 times more on our independent nuclear weapon, Trident, than on Third world aid.
  Mr. Onslow: Will the hon. Gentleman repeat that extraordinary statement about this year's expenditure on Trident compared with overseas aid?
  Mr. Alton: I did not say that that was being spent this year. Estimates for the Trident programme vary between £5 billion and £10 billion. That money will be spent over about 15 years. However, although that sum will be spent on the Trident missile system, only £972 million has been set aside this year for overseas aid and development.
  Throughout the globe the arms race has achieved a momentum unparalleled in peace time. In 1981 military spending reached at least $550 billion, with the world spending 2,300 times more on military activities than on peacekeeping. Britain spends about 20 times more on military activities than on aid.
  Those are some of our priorities and some of the opportunity costs that we are missing. In the introduction to his report Willy Brandt made the same point, but with different illustrations. He pointed out that only half a day's military expenditure would suffice to finance the World Health Organisation's whole malaria eradication programme. He also pointed out that a tank cost about $1 million. The same sum could provide 1,000 classrooms for 30,000 children. He mentioned that one jet fighter costs $20 million and that that could provide about 40,000 village pharmacies in the Third world.
  In terms of everyday sanity, such spending priorities take a lot of rationalising and they are morally indefensible. I shall mention later some of the enlightened reasons for contributing to Third world countries. However, there are two other avenues to explore. Self-interest is not an attribute, for which I, as a Liberal, have any great fondness. However, it is a reality and intrinsic to the Brandt Commission's concept of mutuality of interest. Investment in overseas aid is investment in peace,

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  in stability, in the supply of raw materials and, consequently, in investment in economic activity between them and us.
  I make no apology for suggesting an essentially Keynesian solution in a decade of monetarism, but a transfer of resources from the North to the South would put money into the hands of the poor, who could then buy our goods. That, in turn, would create employment in the North and prosperity in the South. The concept of a Marshall aid programme appears slightly hackneyed these days, but, as the hon. Member for Queen's Park said, it transformed our Western economy after the Second World War and a similar stimulation could once again set the wheels of Western industry turning.
  My next point is relevant to the Government's amendment. To rely totally on private capital flow and to see that as a universal remedy is not good enough. There must be some stringent code of conduct if we are to encourage private enterprise to do more in the Third world countries. I cite as an illustration the sale of Western artificial baby foods to Third world countries.
  I went with a delegation to see the Minister about that and he was sympathetic and listened to our points. Nevertheless, a product such as artificial baby food, which requires clean water, good sanitation, adequate family income and literate parents who can follow printed instructions, cannot properly or safely be used in areas where water is contaminated, sewage runs in the streets, poverty is severe and illiteracy is high. If we are to encourage, as I hope we will, private enterprise in conjunction with the State to make a contribution to the Third world it is important that a properly established code of conduct should be introduced.
  Trade with Third world countries is important to our self-interest. This poses a dilemma for the official Opposition, who will have to decide how far to go down the protectionist road. It is inconsistent to argue for increased trade with Third world countries while campaigning at home for the erection of protectionist barriers. All that that will do is create an island fortress and a siege economy.
  Mr. Spearing: Would the hon. Gentleman not make a distinction between what are known as the LDCs, which often have not many manufactured goods to export and which are largely involved in foodstuffs and raw materials, and the newly industrialised nations, for instance, Korea and Hong Kong, which are not recipients of official aid?
  Mr. Alton: The hon. Gentleman has made an interesting point. I was lucky enough to visit Hong Kong some months ago. I noticed that on its streets there were buses manufactured in this country by British Leyland. The new underground system was built by Metro Cammell, a British company. When I arrived home one of the first things that I saw was that the London Labour Party was complaining about London Transport buying model buses from Hong Kong. That is a good illustration of the kind of outlook that the Labour Party has today. It wants to erect barriers and build up a country that is no better than a banana republic that will float off into the Atlantic and probably sink.
  Still on the question of self-interest, I want to deal with the issue of overseas students being required to pay full cost fees. A year and a half ago my right hon. Friend the leader of the Liberal Party and I, while on a visit to the
  1152
  Middle East, met business men in Jordan. One of the points that they made was that it had been damaging to British industry for us to turn away students from their country. They said that they could not meet the full cost fees that had been introduced.
  As Professor Marris said recently in an article in The Times, graduates represent good value for money. 'We should be exploiting our expertise not only for ourselves at home but by way of aid to foreign students wishing to study here and by offering funding for our trained personnel to work overseas. That would make far more sense than leaving graduates on dole queues at a loss to the Exchequer of about £4,500 each a year. It would make more sense than closing courses and colleges, when Great Britain could become a centre for learning. What finer investment in future orders and contracts for British industry could there be than an increase in overseas students studying in the United Kingdom?
  Then there is the greatest self-interest of all. The globe has all the appearance of a world making ready for sell-destruction. Apart from Soviet attempts at sell-aggrandisement, there are many Third world countries that are unstable and capable of maverick actions that could plunge us into a conflagration. These countries need support and help. It is dangerous to isolate those countries and even more dangerous to sell them arms. I hope that the Government will press the United Nations to set up a register for arms sales to developing countries. We should tie our levels of aid to countries which abide by that register and seem to be using their resources on sensible things rather than preparing for war.
  Another important point is Britain's standing in the world. Our past connections with developing countries and our position as part of the world's largest trading block, the EEC, equip us uniquely to play a leading role in establishing a co-ordinated response to the needs of the Third world. That is a role for someone like the right hon. Member for Sidcup. He could play a leading part in co-ordinating Europe's effort in the Third world. We must avoid the nonsense of blundering in and dumping mountains of free food if it is going to bankrupt peasant farmers, or drilling more water holes in desert areas if it accelerates the encroachment of the desert as herdsmen increase the size of their herds beyond the capacity for grazing. National programmes should not be in competition. There is a crying need for someone to coordinate the efforts of the European nations.
  No Briton can be proud to see our nation characterised as niggardly, selfish and losing its spirit of generosity of which we have been justifiably proud. I am sorry to say that Britain has been turning in on itself and away from the outside world in the past few years. It has been part of our overall loss of self-confidence to see foreigners as unfriendly, overseas competition as a threat and international obligations as infringing our sovereignty. We have tighter and tighter restrictions on immigration, rising support for import controls and the imposition of higher and higher fees on overseas students, and the Common Market is being made the scapegoat. These are all part of the same moves, the same welling up of nationalism and xenophobia.
  I conclude by returning to the humanitarian reasons for increasing our contribution to developing nations, UNICEF estimates that in 1978 alone more than 12 million children under the age of five died of starvation. Many millions more died of disease, violence and neglect. The

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  World Bank hazards the view that 800 million people are in an absolute state of starvation and despair or, in the words of the former president of the World Bank, Robert McNamara,
  "below any rational definition of human decency."
  According to the United Nations, there are still 34 countries where over 80 per cent. of the population are illiterate. Such frightening figures almost pass beyond the limit of our comprehension. If we were to witness personally a fraction of the suffering and degradation that lie behind these statistics the horror of what is happening would strike deep into our souls. Television news reports allow us to become anaesthetised to pain, yet even the glimpses that we see in the comfort of our homes convey something of the immeasurable scale of the problem, inducing for some feelings of helplessness, anger and perhaps shame.
  Behind the huge challenge of world poverty and global inequality looms the growing threat of nuclear conflict and a capacity for self-destruction of quite staggering proportions. The link between a hungry and divided world and peace and security should be obvious. Self-interest alone should drive the rich, industrialised nations of the North to realise that the cries of distress that they hear from hundreds of millions wracked by starvation and disease are a chilling warning of what might be the ultimate political explosion. Such retribution would be a bitter legacy for future generations. Instead of waiting for some mythical or illusory development, Parliament must give the force of law to the need to save the living. It is the powerful of the earth who must bear the greatest responsibility. If through inertia they do nothing, it is they who will be blamed.
  6.8 pm
  Sir Paul Bryan: I should like to devote my few minutes to Government policy for overseas students. At first sight, this might seem to be the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science, but recent policies, in particular the raising of overseas students' fees, have received such a hostile reception abroad and so soured our relations with countries which have been our friends for years that it has become a proper concern of the Foreign Office.
  The Foreign Secretary has just been to Malaysia. I shall be very surprised if, when he comes back, he does not report that the raising of students' fees has been one serious cause of the friction which has sadly replaced the traditional harmony of our relations with that country. The Lord Privy Seal has spent a few days in Hong Kong. I would guess that at least a dozen times during his stay the subject will have been raised with passion with him. He will have been left in no doubt of the feeling there. The Foreign Office will have had reports from all over the world on the same lines, also deploring our intention to charge overseas students for medical treatment.
  On the face of it we might complain that this is all rather unjust. Overseas student enrolments in Great Britain rose from 34,000 in 1970 to 85,000 in 1978; even now they stand at about 70,000. Those figures surely show that we welcome foreign students. They represent overseas aid on a vast scale of probably £100 million or more. But it is because overseas students have felt welcome here and felt that we were their friends that it came as a great shock
  1154
  when, apparently without consultation, fees increased to such an extent that prospective students felt deeply offended. Many have now gone to Canada, Australia and America, where they seem more welcome. Colleges from those three countries have actually sent out recruiting teams to pick up the students who should have come to Britain.
  The serious effect of the increase in fees on our relations abroad has been realised in the House and has been reflected by the fact that the Overseas Development Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs reported on the subject, as did the Select Committee on Education, Science and Arts. Outside the House, the Overseas Students Trust produced an outstanding study entitled "The Overseas Student Question". I understand that the Foreign Office is awaiting a further report from the Overseas Students Trust on the options open to the Government.
  This is, therefore, an admirable moment to sound out my right hon. Friend to discover whether the Government's original reactions to the Select Committees' reports have been modified in the light of the bad effect that our policies on overseas students seem to have had on world opinion. I hope that the Government are in an open-minded mood.
  One matter that stands out from all the reports and studies is the multi-dimensional nature of the overseas student problem. As Professor Peter Williams says in the Overseas Students Trust book:
  "It is a broader question than the narrow issue of whether or not overseas students have been contributing to Britain the equivalent of the full cost of their education. Beyond the important financial aspects, there are considerations of trade, political and cultural influence, and assistance to overseas development".
  As a method of saving money, the swingeing increase in fees for foreign students has proved much too crude. It saved money but it did damage in many other respects, especially in international relations. Therefore, I am not merely asking for something to be done about overseas students' fees; I am asking what is being done or what is in mind about the development of a coherent policy on overseas students, for which both the Select Committees asked. The problem is long-term rather than short-term.
  As a start, let us consider some of the things that are wrong with the system that has obtained during the past 10 years. Through no policy decision of the Government, the number of overseas students trebled at a heavy cost to the British taxpayer, without any apparent thought of true British interests. In a way, overseas aid was being given indiscriminately. Many of the subsidised courses taken had no obvious relevance to overseas development or to British trade. No great heed was taken of where the students came from. Did we really wish to have so many students from Iran? As we had no policy on the country composition of the overseas student body, we could hardly complain.
  Professor Peter Williams says in the final chapter of his book:
  "On the one hand there were sectors of British higher education where the admixture of overseas students was so diluted as to be unnoticeable. At the other extreme there were instances where the proportion was so high one could only conclude the publicly subsidised courses were being laid on exclusively for an overseas clientele and in furtherance of institutional expansionist policies".
  By now it is clear that a new and easily understood policy for overseas students is required. In framing such

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  a policy some principles must be established, and established in relation to the experience of relevant countries. As an example, I wish to relate the principles to experience in Hong Kong, which is the territory that I know best.
  The numbers applying in Hong Kong for visas to study here have fallen sharply. There was a drop of over 42 per cent. in 1980 as compared with 1979 and of about 20 per cent. in 1981 as compared with 1980.
  I suggest that the first consideration to be taken into account is our obligation to individual countries because of our historic special links, because of the poverty of the countries in the Third world, or because, for one reason or another, the country has become dependent on Britain for part of its education.
  The first and third of those considerations apply very much to Hong Kong, with which we could not have more special historical links. Although a fine education system is being built up there, including two excellent universities and a large polytechnic, the system has relied on about 5,000 of their students completing their education here. In many cases they take a year or two of secondary education in the United Kingdom in preparation for university courses.
  To stem the tide of Hong Kong students flowing away from British education towards America or Canada, the Hong Kong Government have instituted interest-free loans. I should like to see a system introduced whereby Hong Kong students could revert to a home student basis of fees, in part payment for which the Hong Kong Government would pay a lump sum into our Treasury. That would be a happy solution for which Hong Kong would pay part of the cost. One reason why the Hong Kong Government are taking positive steps to continue the flow of students to Britain is the undoubted effect that it has on trade.
  That brings me to the second consideration that we should bear in mind when framing our policies. In the Overseas Students Trust book a whole chapter is devoted to a study of the economic costs and benefits of overseas students by a Professor Blaug. Backed up by a mass of statistics, he suggests that the benefits are fairly hard to identify. But the very fact that the Overseas Students Trust is financed by a number of progressive companies, which are convinced of the benefits, makes the statistics highly suspect.
  What is our experience? Hong Kong is our largest market in Asia. We export more to Hong Kong with its population of 5 million than we do to immensely rich Japan with a population of 100 million. Is that astonishing situation unrelated to the fact that a high proportion of decision-makers there were educated in Britain? I can only say that leaders of industry, commerce and banking, which is now so important in Hong Kong, have no doubts about it.
  In framing policies, emphasis should be given to studies that link up with trade and investment overseas. That means concentration not just on science and technology, which prepare one for a career in manufacturing, but on subjects applicable to the financial and commercial sector, which has come to mean so much to our invisible exports.
  The third principle to be considered is the effect of our policy on international relations. Hon. Members who have attended Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conferences or travelled in the Commonwealth will have met hundreds of political leaders whose respect and
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  affection for Britain is rooted in the education that they received here. Consequently, in countries that have become partially dependent on education in Britain, any break in the system brings a hostile reaction out of all proportion to what one could reasonably expect.
  The student fee grievance, coming on top of the British Nationality Bill, has undoubtedly added to the fears of many people in Hong Kong that Britain is trying to distance herself from the territory.
  High standards of academic quality must clearly be another essential in our policy for overseas students. They should not merely feed on our education system but be a positive asset, bringing new breadth of knowledge and experience .to our schools and universities. Again, I am glad to say that from the results I have seen in Hong Kong their students can take on the world in academic quality.
  I have raised a number of considerations that I think the Government should bear in mind in framing a coherent overseas student policy. The Select Committees has listed a good many more, and the Government have the difficult and complicated task of producing actions out of words. The Government already fund a number of schemes, such as the admirable student aid scheme for outstanding research students, and allocate funds to training programmes for students from developing countries.
  Many industries and institutions provide instruction and training at various levels and in many subjects. A vast job of co-ordination is required, and the Government will frequently come up against a shortage of funds. In considering finance, the Government should note that other countries regard overseas students as a positive asset and are aggressively selling their educational institutions to those who had originally aspired to ours.
  However generous this Government decide to be, we shall still in the end have a system in which the majority of our student body, even if better selected, will consist of students paying full fees. This is no disaster if we regard the reception of overseas students in Britain as an opportunity, an investment in Britain's future, rather than a tiresome and costly legacy from the past.
  Britain's image abroad has already suffered rather from that attitude. We have one of the best further education systems, but we must still sell it and sell it more proudly than we have done in the past. If we do, I have not the slightest doubt that we shall get the quality of overseas students that we want, in the numbers that we believe to be right.
  As I have said, in formulating a policy many Government Departments will be involved, as will other official bodies such as the British Council. At the end of the day, however, overseas student policy is predominantly an aspect of internationl relations, and the lead Department in the co-ordination of policy should be the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
  6.23 pm
  Mr. James Johnson: On 5 May 1981 this booklet was in the hands of, or on the desk of, each and every Member of the House of Commons. On that day there was, in my opinion, one of the largest mass lobbies that I have ever seen in this place. Those involved asked for Government action to fight world poverty. Let us not forget that 80 per cent. of the absolute poor—those in the States with less than $200 a head per annum—are

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  in the Commonwealth, so we have a special obligation in this Chamber to do more than we are now doing to lift these people off the bottom.
  Each year I talk to a Methodist men's association in Hull, and so I want to ask the sort of questions that those men ask about what is happening. When I ask the Minister individual questions, I am sure that he will know what I am saying. If we are stocktaking after 12 months and we ask the Minister whether he is satisfied with what has happened since that marvellous lobby day, can he tell us what has been done? Has he lobbied assiduously in the Cabinet? I think that he has, but his difficulty is that he has Cabinet colleagues who do not think as much as they should about the starving millions of Africa and Asia. Perhaps they are too busy. Certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer—about whom I shall have a word to say in a moment—is very busy. Has there been any change of attitude at all amongst the Minister's colleagues in that Cabinet? Sadly I say that there has not.
  Are we meekly following the line set by the White House in Washington and the World Bank? Unkind people talk about the present incumbent of the White House being a cowboy, and his actions give us no cause to think better of him. The World Bank has changed its vision since the days when Mr. McNamara was its No. 1. There is a director now called Clausen, and I do not think that he is even purblind. I understand they have cut the contribution to the International Development Association by 20 per cent. The Administration in the White House spends 40 per cent. of the total budget on arms. Obviously the more one spends on arms the less there is left for other things that I think are better.
  What disturbs me is that we seem dutifully to follow our leader in Washington. Even our "Leaderene" here in No. 10 plays second fiddle for once. I do not think that we should meander along in the shadow of the Americans, because we are still the leader of the Commonwealth. I am not asking for a Marshall plan, but what the Minister and his Government might attempt is a joint operation to arrest the Sahara desert movement south into Senegal, Nigeria and the like. Again, I am speaking in an EEC context. We could do this with the French and others who have a number of former colonies there. Why do we not have joint schemes with other nations for the provision of pure water or for rural electrification in many parts of Africa, Asia and Latin America?.
  What bothers me is that we are so closely hobbled to Washington. We are not sufficiently linked to the old Imperial powers, which have an obligation to their former colonies.
  Again, it may be that we are merely following a domestic policy of cut and cut and cut again. Public aid is, sadly, falling. The Minister admitted an hour or two ago that in actual terms we shall see 11 per cent. less being spent in the coming year. That is what I understood him to say. I am shocked by that when I see smaller nations—the Netherlands, for example, and obviously Sweden and Denmark—who not only do more than that, but actually hit the United Nations aid target of 0.7 per cent. at which we set our sights many years ago in this place.
  I found that difficult to square with what the Minister said at the EEC conference in Paris. I have The Times of
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  3 September beside me. The Minister of State was speaking for the Community, as I understand it. The report said:
  "Mr. Marten added that the Community reaffirmed its commitment to a 'target of 0·7 per cent. of GNP for overall official development assistance."
  That is why I intervened in the Minister's speech. We receive plenty of commitments, but seem to have no timetables. I could listen to a catalogue of hundreds of schemes, and I might know some of them, in 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 States. That is simple enough, but I should like to know how much money we shall give and not merely what we say in an international assembly that we shall give.
  I shall sound like the Methodists in Hull and elsewhere when I say that I think the Government's attitude is that of the Anglican Church before the Hitler war, when the affluent in their oak pews thought of the destitute poor on Sunday mornings but did not think much of them, and forgot them completely on the other six days of the week. The overseas poor are in the same category. They are an even more distant issue to many people, particularly in the Cabinet.
  The Minister has been to refugee camps in Africa, and I have been where he has been—to the Sudan, Somalia, the Ogaden and elsewhere. How many of his Cabinet colleagues have been to Africa? It would do them the world of good to go. The right hon. Gentleman might then obtain more money when he put forward his budget. The right hon. Gentleman's leader seemed to change after she went to Lusaka. She went with certain ideas in her head, but they were knocked out of it by black men who talked to her about the facts of life as they know them and live them.
  I seriously suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should invite the Chancellor of the Exchequer to spend a sabbatical month in a camp somewhere west of the Ogaden. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman accepted that invitation he would be better equipped to look at the Minister's facts and figures and understand his arguments, and he might give him a little more latitude when money is doled out to Ministers in the Budget.
  Some may argue that much of the problem is due to wars. I think of South-East Asia, where there are many conditions that we are debating. The world has 800 million people who are almost destitute. Wars do not help anyone anywhere, whether in Latin America or the Horn of Africa. It is said that aggression is egged on and abetted by the Soviet Union, whose development aid performance, to judge from what little I know about it, is abysmal, even compared with that of the United States, which could be better than it is. The figure for the Soviet Union is about $50 million compared with $5 billion from the West.
  Mr. Deakins: The record of the Soviet Union and its allies in overseas aid is indeed abysmal. It bears no comparison with that for the United States, which is still, in spite of a cut in the aid budget which most of us on the Opposition Benches deplore, the largest aid donor in the world. Furthermore, much of the aid given by the Soviet Union and its allies is military assistance and is confined to very few countries, hardly any of which do not have Communist Governments.
  Mr. Johnson: My hon. Friend has made a better speech than I am making, and I thank him.
  Mr. Alton: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the largest bloc to give aid to Third world countries is the EEC?
  Mr. Johnson: Those of us who have spent some time on the matter and know something about it accept what the hon. Gentleman says.
  There is talk about private investment and the gap being filled by industrial firms, instead of our using public money to build docks, harbours, the infrastructure and everything else that is needed to improve people's standard of living. The history of the past decade or so is not helpful. What disurbs me when I am told that firms should try to instil into the indigenous people some idea of a modern economy is that we at this end persist in condoning weak and falling commodity prices. We do not give the peoples at the other end a fair deal.
  In about 1977 Julius Nyerere was talking to me in Dar-es-Salaam about sisal and Leyland tractors. He said that in 1965 he could pay for a Leyland tractor from the sale of about 17 tons of sisal. Within six or seven years he needed 42 tons. The position has steadily worsened, and now he would perhaps say that he needs more tons of sisal even to buy just a few parts. Commodity prices are settled by people at this end, and the Third world has no chance. We, the developed States, determine the prices.
  In addition, when I talk to people outside the United Kingdom I learn that our banks are not helpful in giving terms. In fact, they are more helpful in giving money to Eastern Europe—not to Poland in particular, but to Bulgaria, Romania and other places.
  I am driven to the conclusion that the United Kingdom's policy has suffered a complete turnabout in the past two years. Not merely is less aid being given, but our aid is no longer going to the poorest sections of the poorest countries. I have listened to a catalogue of certain schemes now being adopted, but I still hold to what I say.
  I conclude with a quotation from a document produced by what I believe to be a reputable body, the World Development Movement. I find its statistics helpful, and they are confirmed by most people. It says:
  "The Commonwealth Development Corporation, a statutory body, which has played a major role in attracting private investment to some of the poorest countries in the Third World was told last December that it can reduce its new commitments to the poorest countries from the current level of over 80 per cent. of its total new investment to nearer 50 per cent. Overall the proportion of British aid going to the poorest developing countries has declined from nearly 70 per cent. to just over 60 per cent. now and this proportion is likely to decline still further in future years."
  Basically, the people most affected by this subject are farmers. They live with their families in the bush in the hinterland. They are fleeing in their millions from the land, out of the bush, to dwell in hovels of the utmost squalor in shanty towns on the edge of big cities, such as Lagos, Salisbury and Rio de Janeiro. While that is happening we in this House are voting less and less money to give their families better housing, better farm machines, better animals and above all better supplies of clean water. Deforestation goes on apace. We are creating man-made deserts.
  "Whom God wishes to destroy, he first makes mad."
  We must open our windows upon this globe about us. We are witnessing a nightmare.
  6.40 pm
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: One problem about the subject of this debate is that the aid industry has
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  developed a language of its own in which some words do not carry their normal meaning. The Opposition motion is a good example of that. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) could not define "absolute poverty".
  To listen to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton), it would seem that the term includes illiteracy. The fact that a man has never needed a written language does not mean that he must starve. Many people in rural economies around the world are by no means living in absolute poverty even though they cannot read or write and have never had the need to. The patronising attitude that underlies the transference of Western intellectual values to overseas communities, whose whole ethos and way of life may be quite different from ours, is encapsulated in his comment on that point. The assertion that 800 million people live in absolute poverty—which is the core of the Opposition's motion—should concern us, but has it any validity?
  There was a time when the poor were defined in the language of the aid industry by international income comparisons. It was quickly proved that if someone in Ethiopia had an annual income of less than $300 a year it did not mean that he was trying to live in the United States on less than $1 a day, which would be impossible. The comparison was quickly exposed as meaningless. We then moved to a slightly more subjective and vague formula, which is embodied on page 50 of the Brandt report and which is still open to analysis and destruction on similar grounds.
  The probing minds of people who want aid to be an intellectually respectable exercise have driven the definition of absolute poverty into the vague, subjective and patronising Western terms that are embodied in Mr. McNamara's definition. The definition has become progressively more meaningless and the numbers progressively more suspect. Again, there is no mention in the definition of the number of people who live in absolute poverty because of causes that have nothing to do with illiteracy, starvation or disease. War was rightly mentioned by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson). If the populations of Cambodia, Ethiopia, Chad or Afghanistan live in absolute poverty, whose fault is it? How will increased expenditure on overseas aid cure their problems? The fact is that the oft-quoted figure has relatively little meaning or relevance.
  So much of the discussion on aid is conducted in similar terms that I must produce another example for the House. When the Brandt lobby came to the House, one of those who spoke was Professor Richard Jolly, the director of the Institute of Development Studies of the University of Sussex, and a member of the United Nations Committee for Development Planning. He said:
  "One of the big lessons of development of the last 10 years is that peasants will respond if only they are given a fair deal."
  I do not know were Professor Jolly has been. I am bound to tell him that, had that fact not been self-evident since the beginning of civilisation, no society would ever have progressed beyond the level of subsistence agriculture.
  Again, what patronising overtones there are in the statement that
  "peasants will respond if only they are given a fair deal".
  The truth is so self-evident that I am astonished that a member of the United Nations development planning committee has only just learnt it in the light of the experience of the past 10 years.

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  I make those two points because I believe that it is time that we use more common sense and rely less on the so-called experts of the aid industry in our discussions. What we are really talking about—and where we disagree; there is no reason why we should not—is means and not ends.
  We share the same objective. We want the world to be peaceful. My right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) understands that peace is an essential precondition of economic progress. Money spent on defence fosters and makes possible the use of money on other things. It makes economic development possible. To suggest, as the hon. Member for Edge Hill did in his intervention, that there is an inherent conflict between peacekeeping and economic progress distorts the argument beyond recognition.
  Can we talk about the means of achieving the end that we all want, which is a peaceful and more prosperous world? When I was fortunate enough to discuss the Brandt report with the churches in my constituency, which I have done on four or five occasions in the past 12 months, we, ultimately focused on this as the real issue. In the process, we agreed that much of the Brandt report does not stand serious examination.
  I do not believe that the Opposition motion stands serious examination either. The statistics with which it is coloured are suspect and the policy embodied in it is absurd. To listen to the hon. Member for Queen's Park, speaking for the official Opposition, one would suppose that the problem could be solved simply by throwing money at it.
  I happen to agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is not a good idea—and was a mistake by the Government—to lend money under the aid budget to Mexico to build a steel mill there. I have always maintained during my interest in the subject, which goes back 20 years, that the Indian Government's development plan aimed at economic independence is largely responsible for their present predicament. India has an atomic energy programme, a space programme and massive steel mills. It has bought, through the West German aid programme, a complete television system. What good is colour television to the poor of Calcutta? Colour television is no doubt of enormous benefit to the German manufacturers, but what contribution does it make to ending the absolute poverty in Calcutta?
  It is nonsense for us to take money from our taxpayers and virtually give ships to the Indians. The same applies to the Poles. It makes no sense for us to make subsidised loans to the Soviet Union. We are committed to a crazy policy. The Soviet Union can borrow more cheaply in this country than can underdeveloped countries. At the end of the day we are taking money from our taxpayers to underwrite policies which actually militate against development.
  It can indeed be argued that this country and the United States, by their policies towards trade, on credit, on the sales of agricultural services and the provision of technology are subsidising and underwriting the Soviet subjugation of Eastern Europe.
  I have no time for self-destructive and frustrating policies. When I first saw the Government amendment I thought that I should be pushed to vote for it. It was not until my right hon. Friend said some sensible things about the part that trade must play, the need to do away with
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  protection and the need to open up markets in this country for the products of the underdeveloped countries that I began to think that I might end up in the Government Lobby tonight.
  For all that, it is a pretty inadequate amendment. I do not accept that the exporting industries are the only ones that matter—that is not such a tangential point as one might think—any more than I accept the proposition that the current world recession is the prime reason for high unemployment in Britain. It stems from the resistance and opposition to necessary economic change led by the Socialist Party and, I am afraid, condoned by the Conservative Party since the war. The Socialist Party has been the prime mover and the prime agent in trying to put the clock back. Mr. Jack Jones and Mr. Hugh Scanlon bear a heavy responsibility for our present unemployment level. It is time that we recognised that a sensible restructuring of our economy to promote international trade, particularly in commodities, is as good as and may in some ways be more effective than overseas aid.
  Let me illustrate what is going wrong. In Bridgend in South Wales a couple of years ago the Welsh Development Agency lent Gamilla Oil Mills £400,000 to start an edible oil processing plant. I declare an interest. I am a consultant for a company active in the area, although that is not a major part of its activities. I speak not on behalf of a particular company, but on behalf of the edible oil processing trade.
  Gamilla went into liquidation last year, so that is presumably £400,000 down the drain. Recently Foods and Feeds Ltd. in the Clyde area was offered grants of £2.75 million to rebuild an old vegetable oil meal complex in Shieldhall in Glasgow, which had collapsed under its previous ownership because of its uneconomic location. At about the same time an efficient oil mill on the Thames, Erith Oil Works, announced that it was going out of business because of the unprofitability of processing soya in the United Kingdom. The loss of 75 jobs was caused by poor dock facilities, over-capacity and discrimination by Brazil in favour of its own crushers.
  That is not the end of the matter. The Department of Industry and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food are in discussion about a grant from public funds to a Malaysian company that wishes to build an edible oil refining plant in Hull, which might create a few jobs in the short term. The examples that I give are scattered about the country—Bridgend, the Clyde, Hull and Erith. Different agencies are involved—the Department of Industry, MAFF, the WDA and the Scottish Economic Development Board—all, I imagine, acting independently of each other. We are spending taxpayers' money to create a few new jobs in one place, while robbing another area of work. Additionally, the industry already faces intense international competition. For instance, the Brazilians want to win more of the market by adding value and employing people in their country; the Malaysians are doing precisely the same.
  We are frittering away scarce resources, perhaps not in enormous amounts but still in recognisable sums, and getting nowhere. I am sure that the same thing is happening elsewhere. We are wasting taxpayers' money which should be properly used, if it must be used through the agency of the State. It could be used to help employment, to train people in new skills for new jobs, and to promote new industry in areas where we do not face intense competition. We might then, for a change, be able

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  to tell a country that we have enabled it to buy from us plant with which it can make a product which we shall be glad to buy back, instead of putting up barriers and going in for a policy of protection, which is so stultifying and self-defeating.
  The Government should not regard overseas aid as a closed and private world, as the right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart) appears to do. Only if our policies on aid, on defence and on the restructuring of our economy are consistent with one another and only if the Treasury and all other Government agencies involved coherently pull together will we have a sensible development policy on an international scale. I hope that I have said all that in language that the House can understand.
  6.55 pm
  Mr. William Hamilton: I have heard the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) on that line before. I do not propose to follow him, except to say that I profoundly disagree with the philosophy behind his argument, as do millions of people in Britain and throughout the world.
  As the House will recall, we have recently been witnessing a massive campaign in the world for disarmament. Side by side with, and not unrelated to that, as has been said, we had the lobby a few months ago on the Brandt report, which was massive and impressive in quality, behaviour and the information that inspired it. The movements for disarmament and aid are closely related. The threat to world peace is as much related to world poverty as to nuclear armaments.
  It is worth recalling that world expenditure on armaments is over $500 billion a year—about £300 billion. Our contribution is about £12 billion and increasing. The hon. Member for Woking did not mention the need to curb armaments expenditure. He is part of the pressure group that urges the Government to spend more on weapons of death. The United States and the Soviet Union are also hell-bent on pouring more and more resources down that futile drain.
  The Government say that, whatever the economic exigencies, our defence expenditure must not be cut. Repeatedly top civil servants from the Ministry of Defence come to the Public Accounts Committee and say that there are good reasons for excluding defence from cash limit disciplines. There is enormous pressure on the Government to let defence expenditure rip. That is in sharp contrast to the Government's attitude to development aid.
  It is difficult to define absolute poverty. We cannot say that exactly 800 million people are suffering gross deprivation and poverty. One has only to go to any State in Africa or India to know very well what it is when one sees it, although one may not be able to define it. No Government of a civilised nation can ignore that harsh reality, or, if they do, they do so at their peril.
  The record of the United Kingdom in the last two years is shameful. Net public expenditure on aid in 1982–83 is to be £950 million. That is a cut in real terms of just over 11 per cent. over the previous year. It is a bigger cut than in any other field of public expenditure. That is the measure of the Government's priority to overseas aid.
  What is more, the aid that the Government are giving is not being directed to the countries most in need. On the contrary, all the signs are that it is being directed to other, less desirable quarters for purely political and commercial
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  reasons. In view of the time, I do not want to expand on that, as the situation was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson), who went into some detail.
  I want to mention one or two harsh facts, not because I have any solution to the problem, but to show the enormity of it. I quote from a UNICEF report published in 1979:
  "250,000 children are blinded every year 'for the lack of a daily handful of green vegetables'."
  About 40 million blind people live—or exist—in the developing world. The International Agency for the Prevention of Blindness was set up about six years ago. In partnership with the World Health Organisation, its aim is to mobilise international interest and resources for global action against preventable blindness—blindness that can be prevented by cheap, simple methods. The technology is available to control the four diseases that account for most of the preventable blindness in the Third world. Blinding malnutrition, which is how it is aptly described, blinds about a quarter of a million children each year, but could be controlled internationally, within 10 years, by determined action.
  We must bear in mind those facts about preventable blindness and the £950 million aid programme of the United Kingdom. I have with me two documents. One is called "Defence in the 1980s", and the other is the annual report of the Royal Commonwealth Society for the Blind. It is worth quoting some facts and figures from the two documents, because all policies debated in the House are arguments about priority and how we should disperse the wealth produced by our workers.
  On page 77 of "Defence in the 1980s" there are some figures. I know that hon. Members will remind me that the sums are spread over a number of years, but for illustrative purposes they are revealing. For example, the estimated cost of the Sting Ray lightweight torpedo is £920 million. We know that the cost has exceeded that estimate and will be more like £1,000 million. That one weapon system in our defence programme is costing us much more than a whole year's programme of aid, spread over the whole of the developing world.
  Another item in the programme is the Sea Eagle air-to-surface anti-ship missile, which costs £350 million. That is about a third of the aid programme. The lesser items which are the small change of our defence programme cost less. For example, a 155mm illuminating ammunition shell for one of our big guns, an FH70 which is used to light up the sky, costs £450. The annual report of the Royal Commonwealth Society for the Blind tells us that £3
  "will pay for a sight restoring cataract operation in an Asian eye camp".
  So, if we said that we would not produce these shells for £450, for every one not produced we could cure the blindness of 150 children. It would be laughable if it were not obscene.
  Another example is the 155mm smoke ammunition shell, for the same gun, which costs £340.
  "£90 will enable you to adopt a blind child for three years",
  says the RCSB. If we dispense with four of these shells we could provide for four blind children to be adopted for four years. That would meet the costs of the clothing, special equipment, outings and fares home in the holidays. That is what the debate is about and what priorities are about—how we use resources. I get very angry, as I am sure many in the country do, when I see the gross waste

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  and the money that literally goes up in smoke while millions of children and adults are suffering from diseases that would be cured if we had the will.
  What the answer is, I do not know. However, the point has been made, and should be made by people who remain in the Labour Party, that trade production and import controls cannot be married with pretending that we can solve the problems of the Third world. The two things are contradictory. I hope that the Labour Party will take this seriously. We cannot say at one and the same time that we will restrict entry into the United Kingdom of the manufactured goods and raw materials of the Third world countries and that we shall lift these people out of their poverty. The two do not match up.
  One of the big problems in the Third world is that of commodity prices, which need to be stabilised. The people there want increased trade, aid and technical development. About 750,000 of our workers are employed directly in the export trade to the developing world. That is a close interlink between what our workers are producing, and what the Third world needs.
  It is no good tinkering with the administrative machinery or saying that another Minister or Department will be provided unless the will is there to change resources and to redirect them from the defence programme to the most important defence programme—the Third world development programme. That is the most important development programme. I hope that the House understands that there is a vast idealistic movement in Britain determined to ensure that there is a reallocation of our resources of wealth to that end.
  7.10 pm
  Mr. Anthony Nelson: The House always listens with interest to the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton). He is not afraid to speak out against his party or the Government of the day if he feels strongly about certain issues. I agree with the latter part of his speech about the need not to interfere with free trade, and that the interests of the developing countries would be served least by erecting protectionist barriers. There, however, my sympathy with him ends. I can in no way support the thrust of his argument that we should substantially enhance the development programme at the expense of the defence budget. It is true that we shall spend about 10 times as much on defence this year as on official overseas aid, but the question is not whether we would spend more on aid if we spent less on defence. If we had no defences, the question might be whether we could spend anything on overseas aid.
  If we dismantled our defences and broke up the collective security system of Britain and Western Europe, we might be relegated to the suppressed satellite status of countries such as Poland. We must ask what contribution such countries can make to the needs of developing countries. I cannot accept that the hon. Gentleman is right in his judgment. I would not go as far as my right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) and suggest that the Secretary of State for Defence and the Minister for Overseas Development should sit down together and regard their budgets as one. I accept that there is a relationship between the two, but they are distinct
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  matters. It is important, as a first priority of Government, to defend our people and maintain a growth in real defence expenditure.
  The Government's record on overseas development is not without distinction. More than £1 billion will be spent on official aid this year and next year. That is considerable both in real and in relative terms. Only four OECD countries will spend more this year on overseas development than Britain. As my right hon. Friend the Minister said, it is the quality as well as the quantity of development assistance that is important. I gain confidence from the fact that about two-thirds of our bilateral aid goes to the poorest countries and that Britain is a signifacant contributor to forms of multilateral assistance for the least developed countries.
  The International Development Association, which is attached to the World Bank, contributes considerable amounts to the poorest countries. Britain will be contributing more than 10 per cent of the funding of the sixth replenishment of the IDA. It is worth noting that that compares with 5 per cent. for France and 5.4 per cent. for the Gulf countries, which include Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait. We should be proud of that fact because it is a real contribution to the developing world.
  The Opposition motion is both cynical and inaccurate. It deplores cuts in the aid programme, yet conveniently forgets that the Labour Government made cuts in 1978 when forced to do so. We might be better able to assist the developing countries now if they had not indulged in a spending spree with taxpayers' money when they were in office. The figure of 11 per cent. referred to in the motion assumes a certain rate of inflation, but the actual reduction in money is about 2 per cent. I assume that the difference is accounted for by an assumption about the rate of inflation.
  A significant factor about the development budget is that that money is largely converted into foreign currency and spent abroad. Therefore, movements in the exchange rate are as important a factor as the rate of inflation. If one argued that the rate of exchange of sterling were to rise by 11 per cent. during the next year, which is not impossible because fluctuations in currency have been at least as large in recent years, we would be spending more in real terms. The figures can be very misleading, and the House and the public should be aware of that.
  The motion accuses the Government of "callous indifference" and a lesser commitment to the plight of 800 million people living in poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) asked who they were. The World Bank has assumed the figure of $635 per capita as its definition of poverty, which produces a figure of 750 million people. Perhaps the Opposition have chosen to round up the figure by 50 million—but what is 50 million to them if they are trying to stir up trouble with the Government of the day? Most of our aid goes to the poorest people. My right hon. Friend the Minister gave details of specific help to sub-Saharan countries—agricultural schemes, population programmes, water supplies and energy resources.
  The Government accept the principle of 0.7 per cent. of GNP being the target for overseas development aid. But they are wise enough to recognise that we have no prospect of meeting that if our economy is unsound and if no action is taken to curb the burden of public expenditure and the rate of inflation.

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  I find it deeply offensive that the Opposition assume a monopoly on moral conscience about overseas assistance. I feel as strongly as they that we have obligations to the developing world and that we must strive energetically to narrow the growing gap between the world's rich and poor. It would he imprudent as well as cruelly deceptive if we pretended that our aid programme bore no relation to our economic circumstances. Worse, it would make more probable an even larger cut in later years. The best means to ensure that we can make the contribution that humanity, national security and self-interest demand is by putting our house in order and increasing the national wealth at our disposal.
  I congratulate the Foreign Affairs Select Committee on its work and contribution to the subject. I read the reports that it produced before the Cancun summit. It played a significant part in impressing on the Government the importance that many of us attach to following up the Brandt report and taking the conference seriously. Are we doing any more than paying lip service to Brandt's objectives and to the contents of the Cancun communiqué? I confess that the language of compromise and hesitancy surrounding many official statements in response to Brandt has not reassured me that Britain, as a developing country, has yet grasped the significance of the Brandt report conclusions or begun to tackle them in a practical way.
  I wish to give one example of the garbled verbiage emanating from Cancun. The communiqué states:
  "The Heads of State and Government confirmed the desirability of supporting at the United Nations, with a sense of urgency, a consensus to launch Global Negotiations on a basis to be mutually agreed and in circumstances offering the prospect of meaningful progress."
  If that sort of state emanates from a meeting of Heads of State—despite the comments about reaching an emotional understanding rather than formulate a practical programme—I must despair. Now is the time for action. That extract of the communiqué related only to a proposal for further talks rather than action. An action programme is needed to implement some of the proposals referred to by the Brandt commission and our Select Committee—for example, on food, trade, energy and finance.
  I wish to comment on one of those broad areas, namely, the financial flows and institutions. The financial crisis facing most non-oil developing countries has worsened in recent years because of the 1979–80 oil price rises, the international recession and the level of interest rates. The three causes are related, but they have had a compound effect on countries without indigenous energy resources, whose principal exports are primary commodities, raw material and minerals, and which already have substantial debt charges on accumulated foreign borrowing. The result was that in 1981 the oil-importing developing countries incurred a balance of payments deficit of $97 billion. That enormous imbalance would have been impossible to sustain were it not for the petrocurrencies which were recycled through international banks, not least in Europe and this country, and multilateral institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank.
  However, a significant factor in this recycling of finance from oil rich to non-oil poor is that much more of the finance flowing into developing countries is in the form of loans rather than investment. Eventually those countries must repay the former. On the latter they only have to generate a rate of return.
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  My fear is that we are building up a much bigger financial problem for those countries, and that many banks may encounter great difficulties in the future. I fear that a lot of the money simply will not be repaid. The fears expressed by the right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart) that a major bank might collapse as a result of the inability of a major country or authority to repay its loan may be realised if the borrowings of those countries compound in the way that is happening now. That is recognised by the World Bank and its IDA affiliates, but it is insufficiently recognised by Governments and the banking system elsewhere. The answer lies in promoting investment rather than lending to the developing countries, and in particular in encouraging the oil rich countries, individuals, and monetary authorities to place long-term investments—not loans—in projects which can make a return and generate hard currency income through exports. It also emphasises the need to back with official aid schemes that are likely to earn foreign currency for the countries in question. Our aid disbursements rightly emphasise agriculture and infrastructure schemes such as roads, electricity and water supply. However, we should not lose sight of the advantage of backing income-generating schemes in those countries. The less-developed countries will have to pay their way much more in the new world financial order, and we can best help them by backing ventures that will generate jobs and hard currency in the years ahead.
  What else should we do? I want to mention three areas—interest rates, exchange rates and the financial institutions. In recent years high interest rates have placed an impossible burden on developing countries, which cannot escape the necessity of financing their trade with credit or their development plans with foreign loans. High interest rates internationally are a direct consequence of inflation, and without more co-ordination between the developed countries to produce a more stable and secure international financial framework we shall continue the spiral and self-defeating process of competing against one another for liquidity in the system and maintaining the exchange rate of currencies.
  In my judgment, the answer is to pursue, as Her Majesty's Government are doing, economic policies designed to lower the domestic rate of inflation and to enable interest rates to fall by reducing the demands of the non-productive public sector of the economy on the nation's resources. However, it is not enough to- get on with that task at home and ignore what is happening abroad. Financial markets and national economies are more interdependent than ever before, and much can be done within Europe and between Western Governments to co-ordinate plans for economic recovery.
  In the context of high interest rates, loans made by the International Development Association assume greater importance. I understand that the IDA can lend money for up to 50 years, interest-free, and with periods of up to 10 years' grace—the only financial commitment being a commitment fee of 0.75 per cent. a year. I fully support the large contribution that the Government make to the IDA, but I understand that the IDA can lend only to Governments. In view of what I said earlier about backing more income-producing schemes, should there not he more flexibility in the recipients of loan finance from the IDA?
  In its proposals for reform of the world monetary system, the Brandt Commission laid great emphasis on the

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  need for stable exchange rates. This is a matter of great importance for non-oil developing countries which have seen their financial obligations and their balance of payment deficits rise in large part because of movement in exchange rates.
  Brandt discussed various ways in which exchange rates could be stabilised. For some time, my preference has been for action on a regional block basis to iron out sharp and damaging fluctuations to currencies. In our case, it means that we should become full members of the European monetary system. Failure to do so has acted as a detriment to trading within Europe and as an unstable influence on international currencies. In my view, it would be the first step to having a European currency and greater stability and order in the international financial system.
  I welcome the fact that internationally we have greater use and acceptance of special drawing rights. That is a good sign of the extent to which there is a common and accepted settlement system which the International Bank for Settlements and Redevelopment is using to advantage. Experience of the EMS in recent years shows that we have little to fear, in practice or theory, in becoming full members. I hope this country will join the EMS, not only because I regard that as an essential political step in Europe, to demonstrate' our unity with it, but also because it will produce more stability and have a practical and beneficial impact on the developing countries.
  Finally, I shall say a word about the institutions themselves. I pay tribute to the contribution of multilateral institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank. Last year, the World Bank lent over £12 billion on 250 projects in 50 countries. Many new multilateral and bilateral institutions have sprung up in recent years, especially in the Middle East. However, I question whether some institutions with grand names which imply development assistance are moving fast enough, giving money and employing the right criteria and expertise in development assistance abroad.
  I think particularly of the Sudan, a country that was mentioned by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson). That country is bigger than the whole of Western Europe. It is the biggest country in Africa. It has enormous untapped mineral and agricultural potential. Nevertheless, for a decade the rich Arab oil-producing countries have been promising substantial financial assistance to make it the garden of the Middle East, promising to pour money into stock and agricultural development. The money simply has not arrived. The Arab development fund for agriculture—I forget the exact name of the institution—promised to make available substantial sums for that development, but it has not arrived. There is absolute poverty in that country and throughout Africa, and resources in terms of food production which the world will not be able to do without during the next 20 years are going to waste. There is therefore an urgent need for some of these fine-sounding multilateral institutions that are set up by Arab countries to deliver the goods and demonstrate that the promises that they make to help countries are being translated into reality.
  There is also an urgent need to rearrange the shareholdings of the IMF so that the quotas can be reviewed, and to increase the borrowing to capital ratio,
  1170
  as proposed by both the Brandt commission and the Select Committee. I hope that my hon. Friend will comment on that matter when he winds up.
  Institutions must manage projects, as well as provide the finance for them, to ensure that there is less wastage, inefficiency and corruption, because those factors bring into disrepute the substantial efforts that we and other countries make toward development assistance.
  I live uneasily with the reduction in funds that has been announced for development aid. However, because I believe that the paramount importance of redressing our economic problems is that it offers the hope that we shall be in a position to increase aid in real terms—and much more than otherwise would be the case—in future years, I am prepared to go along with the Government tonight. I assure my hon. Friend that I shall be in the vanguard of those who will press for a greater allocation to overseas development in future, but he can rest assured that he has my support for the proper priority of looking to our home front first—reducing the rate of inflation—while maintaining a substantial and a record absolute amount of money for these worthy recipients.
  7.30 pm
  Mr. Guy Barnett: The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) made an interesting speech and at one point referred to the importance of the quality of the aid that we give. When debating this subject in March last year I paid tribute to the quality of British aid. I apologise to the Minister for missing a small part of his speech, but I had a brief appointment with one of his ministerial colleagues. I gather that he, too, referred to the quality of British aid.
  It ought to be mentioned that there is one aspect of the total budget that the British taxpayer spends on aid that does not bear examination on quality. It is that part of the budget that is channelled through the European Economic Community. I shall devote my remarks to that aspect of our aid programme, because there is a good deal of evidence to support my view that the quality of aid given by the European development fund is considerably worse than that given by the bilateral or, as the hon. Member for Chichester said, the multilateral programmes.
  The quality of aid ought to be examined, because it is an important element in the British programme of official development assistance, since we are currently contributing about 18.6 per cent. of the total EEC aid budget. In itself that figure may seem too high, and in view of the criticisms that I shall make of European assistance organised under the EDF I see the money spent directly on our bilateral programme.
  I should be interested to know what efforts the Government have made to discover whether that percentage could be reduced, on the argument, of course, that it seems a particularly high percentage for a country with the income that Britain has. The Supply Estimates tell us that the aid amounts to about £106 million a year, and from experience I gather that there is a strong probability that there will need to be a Supplementary Estimate to cover the cost of our contribution to European aid.
  I have been in contact with War on Want and it is concerned and disturbed, as I am, that this element in our assistance programme should be so wasteful and inefficiently administered, and that it often does not reach the poorest people for whom it is intended. Indeed, there

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  are repeated suggestions that development assistance is getting into the wrong hands, and on occasions there have even been suspicions of fraud.
  The Minister, of course, has no direct responsibility for the alleged deficiencies, but he does sit on the Overseas Development Council, representing the United Kingdom, and therefore he has a duty to ensure that British taxpayers' money is wisely and effectively disbursed and reaches those for whom it is intended. Any failure by the Government to maintain a watching brief on possible abuses is not only a serious dereliction of duty, but has the added result of bringing aid for development into disrepute among the general public in Britain and throughout the EEC. Of course, other EEC countries also contribute towards the programme through taxation.
  I am sure that all hon. Members agree that frequently when addressing audiences about aid or development a question comes from the floor about whether the money gets to the people for whom it is intended. That question is sometimes difficult to answer, but it behoves all hon. Members concerned about aid to ensure that, so far as is humanely possible, the money goes to those who need it.
  I shall refer briefly to trade, not least because it is referred to in the Government amendment and has properly been raised by other hon. Gentlemen.
  The EEC figures for 1976 to 1978 show that six countries accounted for over 60 per cent. of Community imports from ACP countries, whereas 32 countries provided less than 1 per cent. of total ACP exports to the Community. Therefore, the Stabex theory, if I might describe it as such, of free access for ACP countries is in sharp contrast to the reality. Most of those countries are not able to take advantage of the concessions. Indeed, the EEC operates protective mechanisms, such as the common agricultural policy and others. The agreement grants relatively low priority to enable industrialised products to be imported into the Community. People keep telling us that the Labour Party will be protectionist. We ought to draw their attention to the fact that the EEC is already protectionist on industrialised products or any goods liable to compete with its own agricultural outputs.
  The Government are right in their amendment to emphasise the importance of trade. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will be forthright in his criticisms. The Guyanese ambassador to the EEC, Mr. Insanally, has been forthright. Among other things, he said last October that since 1975 the proportion of ACP exports to the Community had increased from 6.7 per cent. to a paltry 7 per cent. He said that the overall pattern of trade had barely changed from that which prevailed before the convention first came into force. Indeed, the vast bulk of ACP exports—85 per cent.—to the EEC still consists of raw materials, including oil. It has been stated before that EEC policies have the effect of perpetuating the colonial relationship of supplying raw materials rather than diversifying into industrial production.
  Much attention has been paid during the debate to the plight of some of the very poorest countries. I shall speak shortly about the plight of the so-called "non-associates". When Britain entered the EEC, the Government of the day were able to extract a promise—a joint declaration of intent—designed to ensure that Asian countries would be considered in the new Community trade and aid policies.
  That promise has never been kept. I raised that matter strongly when I was a Member of the European Assembly in 1975. However, there is still no agreed management
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  regulation on how to deal with the administration of funds to "non-associates". Until there is, there can be no significant increase in EEC aid flows to some of the poorest people in the world.
  Being outside the Lomé agreement, of course, such countries have an added disadvantage on trade. The Stabex scheme was generally welcomed when it was first brought into effect. However, it is clear that things have gone seriously wrong. Theory and reality are wide apart. Between 1975 and 1979 over 60 per cent. of the scheme's benefits were shared among seven of the ACP countries. It is worth noting that the transfer to Senegal was only 17 per cent. of the total money available.
  Mr. Richard Body: I visited Senegal not long ago. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that much of the aid goes not to the Senegalese Government, but to companies that are owned and controlled by French concerns and freely remit profits back to Paris, with the result that much of the aid is really going to France rather than to Senegal?
  Mr. Barnett: I had heard that, but did not intend to mention it as I have not the hon. Gentleman' s direct experience of the matter. I am grateful that he has drawn attention to it, as, having been to Senegal and studied the situation at first hand, he is better qualified than I am to do so.
  I should also mention that, of the total money available under Stabex, 19 per cent. is spent on one crop—groundnuts—and falls in export income on this one product throughout the ACP countries accounted for that proportion of cash volume.
  The scheme itself suffers from one serious defect. As I understand it, its whole purpose was to compensate producers of primary products for falls in the world prices, but there is no requirement that that should actually be done and there is no evidence that the benefits of Stabex reach the primary producers who should benefit. For all that I know, the Governments concerned may be using the money to purchase arms and military equipment, which the Government are so eager to pour into the Third world.
  Last year the European Commission defended the operation of the scheme, saying that it had "not collapsed" but was "functioning correctly". The evidence that I have seen suggests that that is very far from the truth.
  As the House knows, the European Communities Committee in another place last year produced a damning report on the EEC's aid programme. It quotes a European Commission paper written by Katerina Folke, which says that the food aid policy is dictated by agricultural interests rather than by any intention to promote development and that:
  "It is an inefficient way of distributing European surplus production to the poor countries, associated with high costs, countless mishaps, delays, wrangling over responsibility and bureaucratic obstacles."
  One incident has been reported in which milk powder arrived 18 months after the cyclone whose effects it was intended to mitigate.
  Last year I drew the Minister's attention at Question Time to the scandal of European food firms making large profits out of food aid. He replied that at that time he had made no representations to the European Commission. I wonder whether he has now done so.
  An article by Mr. Leonard Doyle in Brussels on this subject states:

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  "Rotten food, unfit for human consumption, has been sent by European firms as food aid for the Third world, it was recently admitted in Brussels. While EEC officials have drawn up a blacklist of the companies thought to be involved, privately they admit that little can be done to prevent this scandal.
  Under current food aid procedures, quality control is often left to the good faith of the dispatcher or national food aid agencies, leaving plenty of room for profiteering and malpractice. Trading in human misery, several European firms have made fat profits at the expense of starving and destitute people in the Third world, and, of course, the European taxpayer.
  Food decay has occurred while consignments of rice, wheat, milk powder or butter are en route from Europe to Third world countries. However, in at least three recent cases, it has been established that food was unfit for human consumption before leaving European ports."
  Matters of that kind require the closest investigation. The Court of Auditors in its report last year referred to "exorbitant illicit profits".
  The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the damage that can be caused by the uncontrolled distribution of food aid on the successful development of indigenous agriculture. Many years ago I was personally involved in distributing food aid in a part of Africa. I know of the enormous danger of depressing the price of food and therefore making it uneconomic for indigenous farmers to produce.
  The House of Lords Committee referred to the slowness of distributing aid by the EDF. I understand that by September 1979 almost four-fifths of the aid available to finance development projects remained to be spent, even though the Lomé convention had almost run its course. I emphasise that the British taxpayer contributes to that fund. If one compares our 18.5 per cent. contribution to the fund with the lack of return in terms of contracts for British firms, Britain has good reason to feel aggrieved. The Government amendment refers directly to that aspect of aid. If the Government are as good as their word, I expect strenuous efforts to be made to end the bureaucratic confusion which a British trader related to me only this week. He said that it denied British firms a fair opportunity to bid for work financed by EDF money.
  Perhaps the most serious aspect is the financial control and policy auditing under the EDF programme. Admittedly, in 1977 the Directorate for Financial Control started field visits to EEC delegations in Lomé countries. About six visits were carried out between 1977 and 1978, but at that rate it would take about seven years to ensure that each local delegation received one financial control visit. I therefore assume that one-half of the local delegations have not yet been covered.
  I understand that audits that have been carried out do not measure up to the standard which the House would properly expect of money spent directly by a Government Department such as the Overseas Development Administration. The fact that the staff are employed by the Association for European Co-operation means that they are not subject to the same rules as the staff of the European Commission and that there is genuine doubt about the authority of the audit's findings over the activities of AEC personnel. I cannot over-emphasise the damage that such laxity can do to the cause of overseas development expenditure, especially among those who support it most strongly.
  War on Want has provided me with a dossier about a bank fraud allegedly perpetrated by an EEC delegate working in an ACP country who, I understand, still works
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  for the Commission. The document suggests that the allegations are true and they are backed by documentary evidence. If I pass the dossier to the Minister, will he ensure that the matter is stringently investigated by the Commission? The sums involved may not be large, but if a few thousand pounds can be made by an individual where audit provisions are lax the same may be happening elsewhere.
  The press has implied that the new Commissioner responsible for development, Mr. Pisani, is determined to make major changes in the Community's development policy. He was a member of the Brandt Commission, and with his background one can only welcome his appointment, especially as he is apparently seized of the need for closer supervision of how money is spent.
  I have three questions which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will put to Mr. Pisani when he next meets him. First, what guarantee can he give that the funds transferred to ACP countries are used for development purposes? Secondly, can the Commission guarantee that funds generated from food aid that is sold are used again only for development purposes? Thirdly, can the Commission guarantee that there will in future be a comprehensive system of financial control and audit—ultimately by the Court of Auditors—of EDF funds disbursed from abroad?
  I know that these criticisms of European development policy will receive a sympathetic response from the Minister. I am sure that he shares my concern that the money should be spent properly. If he takes an independent and objective view of the European Community, as I know he does, he will agree that these matters should be pursued. I hope that in his reply to the debate the Minister will give the House evidence that he is following up at least some of these issues.
  7.50 pm
  Sir Anthony Kershaw: Once again the House is indebted to the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett). He has drawn attention to what seems to be a veritable can of worms, which certainly needs to be investigated. I do not suppose that any of us can say how justified the hon. Gentleman is, but he spoke impressively and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will pursue the matter with his customary vigour.
  I shall not detain the House long because what I have to say has already been covered eloquently, persuasively and in a well-documented manner by my hon. Friend the Member for Howden (Sir P. Bryan).
  The subject of overseas students has been debated several times in this House, and to the hard boys still in the Chamber the arguments are familiar. I have never accepted the Government's basic thinking or financial arguments for increasing fees. The basic error has been to hand the decisions to the Department of Education and Science while at the same time requiring it to make economies. The DES does not have a very elastic budget. What it spends depends largely on the number of students it has to take care of, and that is not within its control. Naturally, therefore, when the DES receives such orders it has to cast around for economies. It is nothing to the DES that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is uneasy about its operations in that regard, or that the Treasury calculations on the cost of overseas students are wrong. I do not blame the DES, which has its own budget to make.

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  But better organisation would produce a result that is more in the long-term interest of this country than we have seen up to now.
  I congratulate Her Majesty's Government in one respect. The ODA has managed to find the funds to hold the numbers of overseas students here under ODA auspices at about the previous figure. That has of course made a certain amount of nonsense of the proposed economies because ODA students are more expensive than students who pay for themselves. Nevertheless, that is a desirable result. It is desirable also because ODA-sponsored students tend to come from the poorer countries, whereas fee-paying students are either personally richer or come from richer countries. I regret nevertheless that those numbers will fall, too.
  I realise that there is no point in just moaning and saying that everything is terrible, as I have done previously. Therefore, I have three proposals, none of which entails extra expenditure. In today's economic climate that would be foolish.
  First, the policy should be laid down, not by the DES, but by the Government, taking into consideration the interests of the whole country. Above all, the Treasury should be made to admit that private expenditure of students living here can legitimately be brought into account. One of my hon. Friends said that the Foreign Office should be the lead Department. I do not quarrel with that. The Government must take responsibility and not leave it to the DES.
  Secondly, the ODA should, within its own budget, divert funds to maintain the numbers of its overseas students. This is a valuable means—the reasons have already been eloquently stated—for giving this aid.
  I wonder, finally, why the DES should fix the fees that overseas students pay. This could surely be done by the universities and the polytechnics. They know what they are selling and the legitimate price to charge for it. I should have thought that more accommodation could be provided if these centres of higher education were allowed to charge whatever they believed the market could bear. I have an idea that the amount would be much less in most cases than is now charged.
  In principle, the Government must now formulate a policy. They must know why students are wanted here, the numbers that can be accepted, the countries from which they should come and the "follow-up" procedures to be adopted when they leave. That would make sense.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. It may help the House if I say that 10 hon. Members are still trying to catch my eye with only 80 minutes remaining before Front Bench speakers wish to reply.
  7.56 pm
  Mr. Michael Welsh: I was dragged, if that is an acceptable term, into overseas aid when serving His Majesty. I had the opportunity to see the conditions in which people lived. That was many moons ago. My interest was heightened when Nye Bevan asked for a contribution of 1 per cent., not 0.7 per cent., of the gross national product to be directed towards overseas aid. The only country that will reach the higher figure over the years ahead is Norway. It is therefore a pleasure for me to speak on this subject. I have pursued the honourable occupation
  1176
  of a miner. However, one sometimes has to lower one's standards, and I have ended up in the House of Commons. I accept that the fight for our people—because they are our people—in the Third world goes on.
  This debate might never have taken place but for the savage cuts in overseas aid. The cuts must amount to about 11 per cent. in real terms. It has been stated that this debate is concerned with 800 million people. I do not know the exact number. We are, however, discussing millions of people who are our brothers and sisters—a fact that is sometimes forgotten. Their living standards are very low. While this debate has been in progress, many will have died of starvation. Many babies never reach one year of age due to lack of aid. It should be a matter of shame to the country and to the Government that aid to the world's poorest has been cut since this Administration came into office. The figures have been mentioned. Some are worth mentioning again.
  The statement of the World Bank relating to the next five years shows the terrible embarrassment that the Government will face. There has been little reference by Ministers to that report showing how money will cease to flow from this country to the Third world. It is deplorable. From 1974 to 1979, aid increased by about 42.6 per cent., an annual average of about 7.4 per cent. According to the OECD review, between 1979 and 1980 United Kingdom aid fell by 26 per cent. In the Government's first year of office aid fell drastically. The planned decrease for 1981–82, contained in the Government's expenditure plans, is £63 million. I do not know whether that amount will be cut, but that is what the Government's expenditure plans for this year say. After allowing for inflation, the decrease will be 11 per cent.
  The Minister says that because of the country's plight we must all make cuts in all programmes. However, it is strange that an 11 per cent. cut is being made in overseas aid when total public expenditure will increase by 0.5 per cent. Total public expenditure will increase and expenditure on overseas aid will be cut by a minimum of 11 per cent. Even the aid that is given to commercially orientated undertakings will be cut to some extent. That is at a time when the Third world is facing an unprecedented economic crisis as a result of the oil price rise of 1979–80 and the recession in the West. The poorest countries are the hardest hit. It is a coincidence that both Britain and the United States are carrying out a monetarist policy. That policy has made the crisis worse in the poor countries.
  According to the World Bank World development report 1980 Britain will be the only donor country to reduce its aid in the next five years. The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) said that we should fight for more increases in aid as the country gets on its feet.
  The World Bank report says that 0.52 per cent. of the GNP was given in aid for 1980, then for succeeding years the percentages are 0.48, 0.45, 0.42, 0.40 and then 0.38. We shall be the only country out of 17 that will reduce its aid. I am not sure whether that is correct. However, I can only think that some information must have been given to the World Bank for the report to state those facts. It is obvious that further cuts will be made affecting our poor brothers and sisters in the Third world.
  Multilateral aid has also been hit, especially the International Development Association, which is the part of the World Bank that makes low-interest loans to poor countries. The United States has cut its contribution to

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  IDA by 25 per cent. Britain has followed suit. We have said that we must cut our aid because the United States has done so. However, the Scandinavian countries are maintaining their contributions at the agreed level. Therefore, only the United States and ourselves are making cuts in that important aspect of aid. As a result, countries such as India must now go to the Euro-markets and the International Monetary Fund for funding.
  The Government talk about private capital. It is difficult to get private capital in this country, never mind in the Third world. Private bank lending, which makes up the bulk of United Kingdom private capital flow, is highly concentrated, with over two-thirds of it going to just 12 countries. It does not benefit the poor countries. The Government accept that private money does not go to those countries.
  Paragraph 2 of the Government's statement to the development assistance committee of the OECD in 1981 stated:
  "The Government recognises that private direct investment and private financial flows benefit mainly the upper and middle income countries."
  We are asking for private capital. It is not going in the right direction—to the poor countries. Because of the failure of private capital markets and official aid to recycle OPEC surpluses to the poorer developing countries, those countries are forced to turn to the IMF. The result is that, under pressure from the West, especially the United States, the IMF has had to tighten up on its terms and conditions for loans. A wave of political and social instability has been the result in many poor countries.
  The Minister says that he has explained any cuts that must be made to the countries of the Third world. He has visited those countries. He says that the Third world understands our position and that it is not shouting about it as much as the Opposition. That may be so, but it is strange.
  One of the great issues is overseas students' fees. That is an important factor for our old Commonwealth countries. Being shortsighted about increasing overseas students' fees will have many bad results in the long-run for this country. I shall give one example.
  Last year I was in Malaysia, just before the Commonwealth conference. I met the Malaysian deputy Prime Minister. He said that what our country gained in the short run by increasing overseas students' fees we would lose in the long run. I do not know whether he was right. However, I know that Malaysia is a fast growing country with large reserves of energy, which must be worked. The workers go down to the bowels of the earth for it. Not many British firms have won contracts in that country. Therefore, even if we have gained anything by increasing students' fees, it is estimated that £40 million from October last year has been lost to the business world because of those increases. I appreciate that the Minister is not involved directly. However, if any Department has to make such decisions, it is better if it consults the appropriate Minister as he will know more of the probable results of such decisions.
  British business is now suffering. We have lost £40 million in contracts since October of last year. The Malaysians feel that Britain's decision to raise education fees for overseas students was directed primarily at them. The Daily Telegraph referred to that on Monday.
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  When we were in Malaysia before the Commonwealth conference we learnt that, because of the rise in students' fees, neither the Prime Minister nor the Deputy Prime Minister would attend the conference. I thought that that was bad. We asked them to change their minds, but they did not. Incidentally, 27 per cent. of overseas students come from Malaysia. I asked the deputy Prime Minister about Third world aid. I asked whether Malaysia would consider giving aid to the rest of the Third world, which is poor, as Malaysia is now quite rich and is doing well. He said that he saw no reason why Malaysia should not contribute to the poorer States of the Third world. I am not saying that he has done that, but he has given that assurance.
  I have much to say, but time is limited and I shall make four main points. The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions said that poverty anywhere constituted a danger to prosperity everywhere. That is true. First, without affecting their policy on cuts and so on, the Government could abandon their commercial, political and industrial criteria for aid projects. It would cost them no more to do that. They could steer aid towards the poorer countries. Secondly the Government could maintain their existing commitment to the IDA, despite the American cutback. After all, the IDA exists to help the poor countries. Thirdly, the Government could accept the Third world case for a new issue of world reserve currency with special drawing rights. A sum of between $6 billion and $10 billion would not be inflationary in a world market of about $1,500 billion. Such steps would help the liquidity problems of developing countries, which have only two months' reserve of foreign currency with which to cover imports.
  Fourthly, we could resist American pressure on the IMF to tighten up the conditions on which loans are given to the Third World. Those measures would not cost the Chancellor of the Exchequer a penny and would help. Such steps would show that Britain still cares for the poor of the world.
  I hope that the Minister will consider those four points. It would be worth taking them up to see whether we can help the poor who are asking for help. After all, it is our duty to help.
  8.12 pm
  Mr. Keith Best: As many hon. Members wish to speak, I shall make five brief points. I hope hon. Members will forgive me if they are delivered somewhat staccato so that I can cut my remarks to the minimum.
  Like most hon. Members, I am disappointed that there has been a cut in the aid budget. However, I appreciate the reason for that, given our current economic position. Sometimes we are in danger of being too short-sighted. The aid that we give to overseas countries has ramifications that go far beyond our domestic economy and that stretch towards defence and other interests. Hon. Members should not fool themselves into thinking that aid is a dead issue for the general public. The public are immensely interested in global problems, and aid is an integral part of that. The debate will probably arouse great interest among the general public.
  Let us remember that the Brandt report was, after all, a best seller. Copies of it can be found on the bookshelves of many of those whom one might not otherwise expect to be interested in such matters. Interest has been generated because the public understand the link between

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  world hunger, expenditure on arms and the destabilising effect of the expanding gap between the rich and poor countries. There is also a link with defence. The aid that we give to developing countries is far less ephemeral than the military aid given by the Soviet Union. After all, military aid can change sides quickly, as the experiences of Somalia and Ethiopia show.
  I now turn to the five points that I wish to make. First, there should be closer co-ordination of all aspects affecting overseas aid. I refer not only to the finance that is made available, but to the direct effect that aid has on our economy. Recently it was calculated that one fifth of the firms that gained aid orders employed fewer than 100 people. Almost half the British companies that won orders had fewer than 200 workers. Therefore, such orders directly benefit our smaller industries. Many hon. Members no doubt believe that our prospects of higher employment are probably based on the small firms rather than the large old manufacturing industries. Therefore, our interest in aid is both selfish and philanthropic.
  My. hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Sir A. Kershaw) who is the Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs mentioned overseas students. We must never neglect them. If overseas students come to Britain and learn to use British equipment, they will want to buy British when they return to their countries. I fear that we have been very short-sighted about overseas students.
  There are potentially two areas of considerable waste. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will give them his close attention. I welcome the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 26 October 1981 about the Mexico summit meeting. In column 557 of Hansard, she said that aid should be concentrated on the developing countries so that they grow more food for their people and generate self-help.
  There is a great need for education in some of the Third world countries if they are to use aid to the greatest effect. When I visited India I was told about an American agricultural team which had shown an Indian village how to generate twice as much rice by using a particular form of paddy and they thought that the village could sell the excess and buy luxury items. The following year the team discovered that, instead, the village had planted only half the amount of paddy and were cultivating the same amount of rice. The villagers were not interested in anything beyond that.
  There can also be great waste when aid is given to Governments. I welcome the Prime Minister's commitment that aid should be given to people not institutions. When I visited Afghanistan—in case hon. Members leap up to intervene, I should add that I visited it before its unhappy occupation—I went to the north and found that many people were dying of malnutrition. Both the Soviet Union and the United States of America had poured in a massive amount of aid but it had got no further than Kabul, because it was sold by the Government to the highest bidder. It never reached those in greatest need.
  We should concentrate aid on the poorest countries. That has been said many times, but the poorest countries are the potential breeding grounds for dissent and revolution, for the spread of Marxism and for military interventions by other nations. That is one reason among many why we should concentrate aid on those countries. In the end, who will make the global decisions about aid
  1180
  to the poor countries? Brandt, the Cancun conference and a host of other organisations have said that ultimately it all comes back to the United Nations.
  I question whether the United Nations as constituted is a proper body to make those decisions. It is nothing more than a forum for Governments to articulate their own prejudices and end up without coming to conclusions. The only way the United Nations can be made a more proper body is to try to introduce into it a parliamentary element. Many in the House subscribe to the Parliamentarians for World Order, which believes that we must try to achieve that goal to enable the United Nations to reach proper answers to these grave problems. Those of us who believe that the ultimate answer is through a system of enforceable world law have to direct our attention very much to that end. We can have debate after debate on the amount of aid and on the countries to which it goes, but if ultimately we have not worked out institutions to ensure that it goes to those most in need we are debating in vain.
  8.21 pm
  Mr. Eric Deakins: I agree with a number of points made by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best), particularly his reference to the great public interest in this issue. We have not seen so much of that interest in recent months since the Cancun summit, which was a great disappointment to the many people round the world and in this country who take an interest in this subject. Nevertheless, it is there beneath the surface. If there had been more notice of this debate—in the nature of a Supply debate it is difficult to give more than a few days' notice—there would have been quite a large lobby and many people would have asked their Members of Parliament if they would attend.
  I do not agree with the hon. Member's attitude to the Government's record on overseas aid. In his opening remarks the Minister was a little disingenuous, but perhaps all Ministers have to be from time to time when they do not have a good case. He gave the cash figures. Even on those figures there was a slight decrease, but in real terms it is rather more. Although £1 billion sounds a great deal in cash terms, it diminishes year by year.
  The Minister said that the Prime Minister's credibility in this matter was extremely high in the world, but I must disagree. I have not travelled as much as the Minister, but I can think of countries where the Prime Minister's credibility is probably extremely high—Turkey, Chile, Argentina, Guatemala and perhaps even El Salvador. I am not sure that I should be proud to have Britain's name held high by the Governments of those countries. One needs to have regard to the moral attitude that one is adopting in the world as well as this realpolitik attitude.
  In these debates and in our discussions we always tend to compartmentalise aid. Aid and development have implications for all our policies. I want to point out some of the links. Starting with our domestic policy, we all realise that trade and industry are dependent upon trade with poor countries. I do not want to labour that point, which has been made already by other hon. Members. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), who said that he would not support any policy by any party which had the effect of raising more obstacles to trade by Third world countries with this country or any other industrial country. We may have serious problems, but I do not agree with the Minister or

  1181
  with the attitude of the Government that our economic problems are in any way comparable with those of the poor countries.
  I should like to take a rather unpopular line by saying that there are links between aid and development policies and economic policies. I am not thinking merely about whether we expand the economy. All parties—I stress "all" without exception—are dedicated to faster economic growth. Not merely is faster economic growth in a rich country immoral, although I shall not go into the point now because it would take too long to explain why, but it is going to become increasingly impracticable.
  As the right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) said, faster economic growth in a rich country increases the gap between rich and poor countries, and there is no way in which the poor can catch up. Also, it ignores the fact that economic growth, fast or slow, in this country as in many other industrial countries is based on a disproportionate share and use of the world's natural resources. The United States, with 6 per cent. of the world's population, uses 30 per cent. of the world's natural resources each year and no doubt will continue to do so. That cannot be fair, even though the United States is a very powerful country.
  There is also a great waste of resources in this country. I refer not merely to the fact that the Government are throwing away the valuable benefits of the natural resources of North Sea oil and gas on paying unemployment benefit and things like that, but to the fact that we live in a wasteful society in which there is still conspicuous consumption, in spite of the recession. It would horrify many in the Third world to see it, just as it would have horrified many of our rather frugal forebears in the nineteenth and earlier centuries.
  If we are to help the poor, ultimately we have to readjust our economic expectations of what the Government and society can do for us. The years of continuous economic growth and rising living standards on average for the people of this country and other rich countries are gone for ever. We shall have to learn to live with low or nil growth and cope with the consequences. That will require policies of equality and redistribution.
  In our education policy as well we ignore Third world developments at our peril. We have abandoned the programme of development education. A paltry few million pounds is spent on it compared with the amount for armaments and things like that. Even the £150,000 per year which the Minister kindly gives to the Centre for World Development Education, in which I plead an interest, because I am on the council, is under threat. Our efforts to raise money from our own resources are only getting off the ground slowly.
  I do not think the Government are interested in development education; this is wrong and not in their interest. If the Government want popular support for aid and development in the Third world they must have informed public opinion. That means educating the children in school. The general attitude of turning our backs on the world's poor fosters attitudes of racism. That can be overcome not merely by development education in schools, but by multi-cultural education. Development education and multi-cultural education are two sides of the
  1182
  same coin and they will safeguard the future for any Government who wish to take aid and development seriously.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, just as it may seem sensible for assistance for overseas students to be paid for out of the aid budget in future, so it might be worth while for the Government to examine the practicability of funding the CWDE out of the education budget? It can be argued that that is more properly the responsibility of the Department of Education and Science. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will agree with me that that is a fundamental part of our domestic education.
  Mr. Deakins: I hope the Minister will take the hon. Gentleman's point on board, although he cannot answer it tonight, because it represents a fundamental change.
  The last link between our aid and domestic policies is population. We are very good at telling the rest of the world, rightly so in poor countries, that they must restrict the growth of their populations. In Britain we have no population policy at all. The Government's attitude is that the population can reach whatever level it wishes and the Government will try to cope with the consequences. That is wrong. One extra child born in the United Kingdom will, during its lifetime, consume between 20 and 30 times more of the world's natural resources, than a child in India, Bangladesh or Tanzania. Therefore, when we are trying to cut the populations of poorer countries, we should bear in mind that for every 20 or 30 that they cut we should reduce our population in proportion. It would be good to have a Government who took seriously for once the idea of an optimum population in Britain, which should be much less than the present 56 million.
  There are also links between our aid and overseas policies. Many hon. Members have said that development and aid in the Third world help to promote stability if we put our full backing behind the appropriate country. We must widen our definition of human rights. The concept of human rights is one not only freedom of speech and freedom from arbitrary arrest and torture, but freedom from hunger. That is a more basic human right—because one cannot survive without the other—than freedom of speech. I hope that the Government and all who speak about human rights will bear in mind that there are more fundamental human rights than freedom of speech. One must have the freedom of life and the freedom to grow up without one's genes being incapacitated because one's mother did not have proper nutrition.
  We must also be clear about the sort of aid policies that we should pursue as part of our foreign policy. Some countries have popular Governments. They may not always be democratic in the Western sense, but those who visit such countries know that, by and large, the people support the Government. Our priority, within the limits of our aid budget, should be to help those countries. The collapse of countries such as Tanzania, which has a popular Government, Costa Rica, which is one of the few democracies south of Mexico, and other such countries would be a blow to democracy and would open the way to the sort of Communist infiltration and subversion about which the United States of America always talks. We have the remedy to aid not only our friends but Governments and political systems in poor countries which will be poles of attraction for other countries that are seeking their

  1183
  development paths. We do not wish to have Cuba as the only pole of attraction, but Costa Rica, Nicaragua and other such countries.
  There are difficulties when we apply the principle to Governments that are based on repression and social injustice. I do not know the answer, but I hope that the Government will accept that there is a problem about aid going to many of those repressive countries. We cannot be certain whether the aid will get to the ordinary people, let alone to the poorest people. How can we achieve social reform in those countries? I do not know, but it should be an objective of our foreign policy as well as our aid policy to take those points on board.
  The last link between aid and overseas policy is defence. If there is instability in a country because of poverty, social injustice and oppression, it will lead, as in many countries today, to guerrilla activity and civil war. Such war will unquestionably, as in El Salvador, begin to draw in the great powers or their surrogates, either directly or indirectly. We must show that we are concerned about world peace. We can ensure stability by using aid and economic development.
  We undermine peace in the policies that we adopt—I do not blame any particular Government, because it goes on under all Governments—for arms sales to Third world countries. I do not say that we should abandon those arms sales altogether, but with our partners in the EEC and America, and all the countries that sell arms, we should try to restrict those sales and not send them to repressive and socially unjust Governments. The arms trade wastes not only our resources but the resources of the poor countries that purchase them. It serves to increase tension in the world.
  We must take disarmament negotiations much more seriously than any British Government have done in the past. The negotiators are buried in Geneva and Vienna and no one pays them the slightest attention. Many Question Times can go by without a question being asked about the negotiations. We neglect them, but we must take them seriously if we are to decrease the world's arms spending. We could do much more to help peace, stability, aid and development by trying to strengthen the United Nations peacekeeping role. It might become a substitute for poor countries spending so much money on arms to protect themselves against the ambitions of their neighbours.
  Finally, the politicians and the people of Britain must widen their perceptions of what goes on in poor countries. We should regard them not merely as recipients of crumbs from the rich man's table, but as fellow human beings who have much more urgent and worrying problems than we have. During the next few years all our policies must acquire a Third world dimension so that we can consider genuinely the interests of people in poor countries as well as the interests of British people. We all have a mutual interest, as Brandt stressed, in the survival of the human race. If this debate contributes to that end, it will have served a very useful purpose indeed.
  8.35 pm
  Mr. Neil Thorne: I am very interested to hear this debate which has certainly been wide ranging. It was especially interesting to note that the Opposition Front Bench castigated us for this country's contributions and those of the United States, but said nothing about the contributions by Russia, China, or some of the oil-rich
  1184
  States which not so long ago were themselves recipients and could now well afford to play a major contributory part.
  The Opposition claim all the credit for what the Government have done even though the record of not only this but of previous Conservative Governments has been markedly better than that of the Labour Party in office. Although the Labour Party has persistently demanded a target in aid of 0.7 per cent. of the gross national product, in 1964 it was 0.52 per cent., in 1978 it was only 0.46 per cent., and then in 1979 it was back again to 0.52 per cent. Moreover, in no intervening year did it reach a higher proportion, so, as usual, the Labour Party's words speak louder than their deeds.
  Our performance in exceeding the other United Nations' target measure of 1 per cent., including private funds, is excellent. Why is that figure ignored by the Opposition? Is it because they cannot bring themselves to pay tribute to the private sector under any circumstances? Or is it that they only believe that the State counts? I deplore the recent reduction in the aid target, but l accept that it is difficult to expand anywhere in times of severe economic difficulty. The first responsibility of Government must be to put the country back on its feet.
  It would be quite wrong to limit our consideration to cash aid, whether national or private, including loans. In my view, it is more important that we should pay particular attention to education and technology. Our education system is still the best value in the world, and I am not so pessimistic about the increase in overseas students' fees as some of my hon. Friends, especially my hon. Friends the Members for Stroud (Sir A. Kershaw) and Anglesey (Mr. Best). There are special facilities for subsidising those from Third world countries; while those who come privately or from industrial or oil-rich countries outside the EEC will pay their full share instead of relying on the British taxpayer to pick up the bill.
  Technology is certainly an area of great opportunity. Recipient countries are able to benefit from the latest designs, and in return a future market is assured for our products in both initial supplies as well as spares and renewals. That is certainly the procedure that has been adopted by the French, and I think that we should take a leaf out of their book.
  I am delighted to hear that the Commonwealth preference still applies to aid, and I understand that three-quarters, of the 70 per cent. of aid which is directly placed goes to Commonwealth countries. However, I should like to indulge in a special pleading. My right hon. Friend the Minister will not be surprised when I advance the cause of Nepal. We have had a special relationship with the Nepalese for a long time and they have supported. us through thick and thin, especially during two world wars. On my way to the House today I passed an Army 4-tonner full of Gurkha Nepalese on their way home from Buckingham Palace where they are at present performing their annual Sovereign's guard duty. Ever since our relationship began we have been a more prosperous nation than they, but the gap has widened considerably in recent years. I would hope that we could devote more of our efforts to helping them. They need more roads in a terrain that is such that they have to arrange their school year into two terms so as to give the children five days to get to school and five days to get back at the end of a term

  1185
  because very few motorable roads reach the villages. After they have left the roads it often takes several days to walk the rest of the distance.
  The Nepalese also need better water supplies. It is not unusual for a housewife in Nepal to have to go 2,000 ft down to a spring every morning and climb up with water needed for the whole day. That is a considerable distance. There are many ways in which we can help. I hope that we shall examine the possibility of giving the Armed Services, particularly the Royal Engineers, an opportunity to gain experience by providing such aid. It would be very good experience and well worth while.
  The Nepalese also need educational aid and help, including development guarantees, to develop the enormous potential of their tourist industry. British companies are both well respected and well received by the Nepalese, and I hope that they will be in the forefront in trying to carry out such developments. They will certainly need financial backing, which I hope the Government will provide.
  I similarly ask my right hon. Friend to re-examine the pensions paid to Second World War service pensioners. An increase would be a direct and positive way to provide aid where it counts most—right into the villages. Incidentally, before Gurkha pensioners return to their villages they are taught medical skills, which are essential in communities perhaps two or three days away from the nearest qualified doctor. Often the best help available in emergencies can be provided by a pensioner medical orderly.
  Those who retired after their service in the Second World War have been caught in what we in this country call a poverty trap, because of a tripartite agreement with India, which took over responsibility for some of the Nepalese units on receiving its own independence. We promised to march in step with India on the pay given to the Nepalese soldiers, which included pensions. Unfortunately, the value of some of the pensions is now so small that they are hardly worth collecting. I trust that my right hon. Friend will look again to see what can be done.
  Many people decry our defence expenditure, but it is an aid to international stability. There is no doubt that if there were another world war the world's poor would be among the first to suffer. Therefore, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should lay down our defences to help the Third world. We would do much better to impress on the Iron Curtain countries their duty, too, and agree to a multilateral reduction of arms, and ensuring that the resultant savings are used in aid.
  Several Hon Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Five hon. Members wish to catch my eye. The Front Bench speeches will not start until 9.15 pm, but I am sure that brevity will be appreciated.
  8.43 pm
  Mr. Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler: Apart from aid, which is the subject of our debate, the key policy questions for both the United Kingdom and the developing world as a whole are questions about trade and investment, to which several hon. Members have referred. Therefore, those matters
  1186
  need to be integrated with policies on economic management as a whole. Development policy must be put in the context of the global economy, rather than treated, as it so often has been, as no more than a minor extension of aid policy.
  For those reasons I deplore—notwithstanding my personal regard for the Minister for Overseas Development—the fact that when we debate these matters we do not attract to the debate more than 40 hon. Members from all parts of the House at the peak of discussion, and never attract Ministers from any of the key economic Departments or from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office itself. That is a shame, because we on the Opposition Benches take as a starting point the view that the recession in the United Kingdom economy cannot be reversed by domestic policies alone. Depending upon the precise mix of fiscal and monetary policy chosen to increase the level of domestic demand, any increase in the level of activity is likely to raise the demand for imports and switch resources from exports to domestic production.
  We assume that a rise in the level of economic activity in the United Kingdom will be accompanied by deterioration in the balance of payments and, possibly, the elimination of the existing surplus. It is all the more important, therefore, that domestically induced expansion of the British economy, when it comes, is accompanied by global expansion. Only then is it likely that drastic adjustments in the exchange rate, and all that that implies for domestic inflation, can be avoided if external equilibrium is to be roughly maintained.
  In this way we argue that there is a direct relationship between domestic economic policy concerned to raise the level of activity and reduce the level of unemployment, on the one hand, and, on the other, international economic policy designed to expand the global economy in loosely synchronised fashion.
  Steps must be taken by the international community to increase the import capacity of developing countries. It has to be acknowledged that the proportion of British manufactured goods which go to the developing world is substantially less than that which goes to Europe and the United States.
  However, we ought to bear in mind the fact that the balance of payments advantages of exports to the developing world is substantially in our favour. In 1980 it amounted approximately to the total balance of payments on current account. I argue that this constitutes an important reason for not ignoring the developing world in the process of re-establishing expansion in the global economy.
  Although I do not endorse the concept of making the developing world the sole or principal growing point of the expansion of the international economy, I believe that the Brandt commission is right to argue that it would be morally right, as well as politically and economically sensible, to give the developing world an important part in the process of global expansion. The potential markets are large in absolute terms. They are often for goods that are relatively intensive in the use of labour though incorporating substantial human capital.
  A proportion of manufactured imports is essential if developing country exports of raw materials are to be maintained and to grow. On those grounds I believe that a positive policy on the expansion of the import capacity of the developing countries is inalienable from policies designed to expand the British domestic economy.

  1187
  I would number them as three. The first is trade liberalisation. I acknowledge immediately—the Minister will agree with me—that it is not possible for the United Kingdom as a member of the European Economic Community to liberalise unilaterally, even if it were politically or economically prudent. It is in British interests, as many more British manufacturers recognise, for Britain to use its influence to this end in a multilateral context.
  The effects of trade liberalisation and the improved access of developing countries to richer world industrial markets would be to moderate inflation by reducing the cost of some goods which would be of benefit to the British consumer. It would create demand by enabling developing countries to earn hard currency, to which many contributors to the debate have referred. It would require Governments to consider more carefully support for and indeed partnership with British industry during the period of adjustment which might follow.
  I am arguing for the possibility of developing countries being encouraged to increase their export earnings and at the same time for the British Government to have a greater partnership with British industry to enable it to improve its technology and move into more advanced fields and to sell the goods and services in the developing world.
  A second major area is that of commodity price stabilisation, to which the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) referred. It is important that we make progress to establish stability in world commodity prices so that developing countries can begin to show a real return to the producers of the products which they seek to export, who too often are subject to the risk of wildly fluctuating exchange rates.
  The third important area to which many hon. Members have referred is investment. The Minister is wrong to suggest that private investment can replace aid as an important part of the restructuring process, particularly in the poorest countries. However, in threshold and less poor countries great encouragement should be given to the private flow. I urge the Government to give a high priority to increasing the number of investment protection agreements with the developing countries, perhaps in return for a bilateral code of practice to ensure that companies operate on terms fair to themselves, their shareholders and the countries in which they operate.
  The final part of the mix of trade liberalisation, commodity stabilisation and investment is the aspect of aid which we are debating more specifically. Aid to the poorest countries offers the only possibility to many to establish an infrastructure and gradually to improve their people's lives from standards below those which we recognise as acceptable in the West.
  We are seriously concerned about the fact that the Government have given trade and investment far too high a priority—although even in those areas they have not gone far enough—compared with aid. However much the Minister defends the Government, it remains a fact that they have savagely cut the aid programme in real terms—on some estimates by as much as 11 per cent. or 12 per cent. this year.
  In his unusually unhelpful, defensive and self-congratulatory speech, the Minister showed no imagination, sense of urgency or commitment. He was defending a programme of substantially reduced aid. It is no good for the Government endlessly to mouth the magic
  1188
  figure of £1,000 million. It shows their failure to control inflation more than any success in persuading the Prune Minister to be generous to the poor.
  Therefore we shall vote with the official Opposition. We have some regret. The motion is immoderately phrased, but the point is fair. We are determined to achieve at the earliest opportunity a transfer of official development resources of 0.7 per cent. of GNP.
  8.53 pm
  Mr. Bowen Wells: It is no surprise to the House to hear the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler) speak so eloquently and passionately on a subject which he has espoused with great enthusiasm throughout his time in the House. The House respects his view.
  It is dangerous for a Government to forget the idealism innate in the world and particularly in Britain. Most people in Britain will respond if one describes the way in which the people whom we are considering live. Mr. McNamara, the president of the World Bank, once described it as
  "a condition of life so limited by illiteracy, malnutrition, disease, high infant mortality and low life expectancy as to deny the victims the potential of the genes with which they are born."
  The hon. Member for Waltham Forest (Mr. Deakins) also referred to that description, and it was mentioned in our previous debate in July. I make no apology for repeating it. The speech of the hon. Member for Waltham Forest was dignified by the great idealism that he always displays on these occasions.
  It will come as no surprise to my right hon. Friend the Minister to learn that I, amongst others, am very disappointed that it has been found necessary to decrease the overseas, development budget for 1982–83 by £26 million from the previously planned figure. In the report of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs on Brandt, and in my speech on 24 July, I called for a modest restitution of £63 million to the aid budget, which I wanted to see used for the Commonwealth Development Corporation. The Government, in their reply to the Select Committee report, said:
  "The size of the United Kingdom's aid programme must depend in large part on the strength of the United Kingdom's economy. When the health of the economy improves the Government hope they will be able to do more."
  It is to that promise that many Members will wish to hold Government.
  One of the things that drove me into politics in Britain, and a reason why I am not working overseas for a cause in which I passionately believe, as others do, is that I believe, with the Government, that the most important single thing that Britain can do for the developing world is to strengthen its own economy. To do so it is vital that we apply ourselves to the disciplines imposed by the private enterprise system and move away from the Socialist planned State, which impoverishes not only Britain but large parts of Eastern Europe, and, regrettably, large parts of the Third world. To become more prosperous Britain has first to make a political decision in favour of a capitalist system. From that decision Britain could expect to provide better for its people, but also for all those who trade or work with us and who are our fellow human beings.
  How does a prosperous Britain help developing countries? It provides markets for their goods and investment in their countries, which brings jobs and taxable profits to those host Governments. From those

  1189
  taxes they can provide the welfare and infrastructure that are needed to build up the economies of their own countries. Britain can afford to train more people from the Third world in its universities and schools. It is this kind of self-help that the developing world is demanding.
  In many ways it is insulting to continue to speak in terms of aid. The developing countries are not demanding, or expecting, to receive the crumbs from the rich man's table. They want the dignity of working for themselves and building up their own countries in their own way. It is a disservice to continue to use that term and I am glad that we use the better term "overseas development budget".
  The Government are right to put the emphasis on getting the British economy right even if it means temporarily cutting the overseas budget. Britain's lack of prosperity has led to cuts in student grants and the imposition of import controls through the multi-fibre arrangement, often supported by Members of both sides of the House who have textile interests in their constituencies. That is understandable, but shortsighted.
  When we debate the multi-fibre agreement, how often do we hear the voice of the many people who buy textiles? They are usually silent, so I was glad to hear many hon. Members make the point today about the necessity of the Third world to sell and the need for open trade practices. These are things which we can provide which do not cost us money but for which we must plan to make certain that our industries adjust.
  I shall continue to argue that the way out of our current unemployment problems is to increase opportunities for trade and for both public and private loans to the developing world. These provide jobs for the Third world and the incomes to purchase more goods and services from Britain, thus creating more jobs in Britain's factories and commercial houses.
  An example of that is our contribution to the United Nations development programme of $34.5 million. It has generated orders and jobs totalling $47 million, of which $16.2 million is spent on equipment, $12.8 million on consultancies and employment of consultants, and $18 million on students. That is how Britain benefits from what is described as the aid programme. More money is spent in Britain as a result of our contributions to international agencies, with the one exception of the European development fund, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett). With that exception, Britain benefits disproportionately from the world aid programme. That matter should constantly be driven home.
  I must tell my right hon. Friends, therefore, that they have chosen the wrong target when they cut aid disproportionately. That cut has succeeded in souring our relations with Third world countries, as no doubt my right hon. and noble Friend the Foreign Secretary will have learnt at first hand last week in Kuala Lumpur. It will be interesting to see whether the charm of my hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Trade can convince the Indonesians that, in spite of a stricter multifibre agreement, they should continue to buy British. They objected before, and we lost orders worth many times in job and cash what Indonesians textile exports would have cost Britain.
  However, I accept the reality of the situation. I know that many of my friends overseas understand our
  1190
  predicament. How can I argue for increased cash for aid when my schools do not have enough textbooks and chalk, and when there are not enough nursery schools or welfare helpers? We are faced with a real dilemma. It is easy to cut the aid budget, because those who receive it do not vote in this country.
  I cannot end without congratulating my right hon. Friend on the way in which he supported the Commonwealth Development Corporation in the settlement that he made, thus assuring its future. It is through that corporation that we create the most positive form of development, by investment and the creation of jobs and profitable enterprises in those countries. However, that cannot be achieved without the assistance of the grant money that we give in our aid programme. I give credit to my right hon. Friend, because the large majority of our aid budget is in that form. We should co-ordinate that grant sector with profitable investment, so that we create socially and politically profitable enterprises with British expertise. That is the way forward.
  We need a Conservative aid programme, first, to provide trading opportunities, by reducing inflation and adopting policies to strengthen the home economy. Secondly, we must maintain as free and open a market as possible. Thirdly, we must encourage private investment overseas and public investment in infrastructure programmes related to the establishment of profitable enterprise. Fourthly, we must increase funds available to the CDC and develop it into a major arm of Government policy to assist private and public investment. Fifthly, we must reform the international monetary system, of which the right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart) spoke. Finally, we must continue support for multilateral agencies for development.
  That is the path that we follow to grasp the idealism that exists in Britain. It is the way out of the recession and unemployment that exist in Britain. It is a way in which we can start to solve the world's problems of hunger and poverty. I believe that it is the path that Britain wishes to follow.
  9.4 pm
  Mr. John Sever: The House will have been disappointed this afternoon by the Minister's statement. It was ponderous, unadventurous, and defensive. It was born, of course, out of a discredited policy and out of a discredited set of ideologies handed out to him doubtless by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He appeared very uneasy when presenting that brief because the measures he presided over and the policy he has adopted lately have done little if anything to encourage hon. Members on both sides of the House. They wanted the Government to play their part—as was intimated by his right hon. Friend at international conferences—in defending the interests of the Third world, of the underprivileged and of those in developing countries.
  A considerable economic crisis faces the Third world. Average incomes are very low. Average life expectancy is unacceptably low and below that of the developed and developing world. The Third world's disadvantages can be understood from considering a range of topics. The Minister seems to offer it little today. I thought that he would be in the forefront of doing all that the Government could for those in greatest need. The whole tenor of his contribution today was very disappointing.

  1191
  The Government have taken a negative approach on tackling Third world problems, despite their assurances that everything would be done to try to improve the lot of those most disadvantaged and underprivileged in developing nations.
  We heard ideas this afternoon, primarily from Government supporters, about private investment and enterprise which might assist in aiding the problem. However, I want to know where the evidence is for the argument that capitalism—in the Western sense—means that people are running round the Third world doing anything positive to bring about improvements. It is no good arguing that private investment will correct the matter or suffice because it clearly will not.
  The aid and assistance that Governments of developed nations such as our own can give are far more valuable than some of the platitudes we have heard about the probable private investment that will flow from Eurodollars and the West in general.
  The Minister of State should know about a miniconference—not a summit meeting or exciting discussion—that recently occurred in Birmingham, Ladywood. It was held in my friend's sitting room. He is an established community leader among the Ladywood Indian community. He, I and a few friends from India, Pakistan and some other South-East Asian territories simply argued—as was earlier suggested—that we should not be throwing money at the problem but recognising that Britain and many other countries are better placed than most to do something about the difficulties encountered by my friends in Ladywood and their relatives in the Third world.
  We simply say that not enough has been done so far or promised this afternoon to bring about an improvement for the people in developing nations. At that meeting, we said that it would be a good idea for the Government to recognise, even at the lowest level, that there would be something in it for them and us if we invested development money in the Third world. As hon. Members said this afternoon, in speeches far more eloquent than mine, we shall sooner or later be able to expect a dividend. The growth of these nations' economies and the independence they will achieve from economic stability, infrastructure growth, education and the rest of our programmes will result in economic progression.
  We must accept to some extent that our economy will not grow to the size many political leaders have promised over the years. However, economies in the Third world might and they would then be able to buy British-built motor cars and heavy engineering from the Black Country and the other industrial production centres of Britain. If we can encourage their growth and development they might manage to do that before we go bust. I should have thought that the Government would find some comfort in that lowest level of the argument for finding a few more pennies for the developing world.
  I had prepared what might have been a reasonable speech, but I am aware of the stricture of the hour and I do not wish to delay the reply to the debate. I wish to put forward for the Government's consideration one or two measures which would not cost a great deal of money but which might improve the situation generally.
  First, the Government should abandon their shortsighted opposition to attempts to stabilise earnings by arguing for discussion at UNCTAD of proposals to allow the Third world a larger share in the processing of raw
  1192
  materials. I should have thought that they could involve themselves in that at little, if any, cost and thus offer some substantial help.
  Secondly, the Government could allow their IDA contribution this year, which I understand is already deposited, to be spent on countries such as India which have been forced by the shortage of funds at their disposal to go to the IMF and other international moneylenders for assistance.
  Some of these measures, of which the Minister is well aware, are relatively easy to implement, will cost the Government virtually nothing and will bring about a ratio of improvement which far outweighs the effort involved. I hope that the Minister will give favourable consideration to them.
  Private capital has been mentioned several times in the debate. In 1980, only 9 per cent. of private capital from. the United Kingdom to the developing nations was in direct investment. Sixty per cent. was in bank lending, and some two-thirds of the outstanding loans were to l2 countries only.
  I asked the Minister in an intervention whether he agreed that private capital and investment went primarily to those countries that were developing best. I cannot put the argument any more simply. The countries that are not developing, that are having the hardest time and in which progress is being slowed down, are not getting the money that Conservative Members allege is readily forthcoming. I do not accept that it is forthcoming. I hope that the Minister will deal with that.
  I am aware of the shortage of time, so I shall conclude as I began. What the Minister said this afternoon is not good enough. Our friends around the world who look to Britain for a lead to help those in greatest need will have been sadly disappointed.
  9.13 pm
  Mr. David Crouch rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) was in the House when I announced that the winding up speeches would start at 9.15 pm.
  Mr. Crouch: I realise that that time has been agreed through the usual channels, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall make an abbreviated speech.
  I have sat here for more than five hours today and I have attended just about every overseas development debate since 1966. I initiated the first debate on the Pearson Commission's recommendation of the 0.7 per cent. target, when we had a six-hour debate and carried the day. I still believe in that 0.7 per cent. target. I am glad that the Opposition accept that target in their amendment and that they recognise that the Government also believe in it.
  All that the Opposition are saying in an over-stated and over-complaining motion is that we should hasten rather than slow down progress towards the 0.7 per cent. target. The Opposition may have over-stated their criticism, but the Government, by their response in the amendment, may have under-stated the seriousness of the position. If I did not support the Government tonight I might turn out to be assisting them. I am not against the Government's policy—I am just disappointed with it.
  Hon. Members have said that there is great interest in the Brandt Commission report. During the Cancun

  1193
  conference my constituents wanted me to ring the Prime Minister, not in Downing Street, but in Cancun, and they offered to pay for the call. They thought that the matter was so serious that I should draw her attention to their feelings about it.
  There were, of course, other views. One met the so-called "shop-keeper mentality" of so many people in this country, who wanted to know about neither aid nor Cancun. Many thinking people, represented by a great many thinking hon. Members here tonight, wanted to know about Cancun and wanted something done.
  I am glad that the Government believe in aid, that they recognise the responsibility of the richer nations to help the poorer nations, and that they regard aid not as a charity, but as a vital economic social and moral duty.
  A total of £1,000 million is no mean figure. The Government have said they would like to provide more, but they argue—this is what the Opposition complain about—that we must first correct our own economic troubles to enable us to contribute even more effectively to the development of the poorer nations. Many hon. Members have said that that is right, but I question that. We cannot use that simple solution on a complex and critical problem. Should we make ourselves richer first? Should we overcome our own problems before we help the Third world? Should the Third world wait? The needs of the Third world cannot wait. Time is not on our side. If aid from the industrial world is restrained and does not grow in this decade, the gap between the rich and the poor nations will grow.
  That great man who has now retired, Mr. Robert McNamara, said in the World Development Fund report last June that
  "the income gap between the richest and the poorest countries will continue to increase".
  That was his summation. Dare we let that happen? We should think of aid not solely in terms of what we can afford, but of what is essential. As the industrial world races ahead in this new age of science and technology, as we increase and develop our resources, so we are in danger of still further increasing the gap and leaving the poorer nations far behind—perhaps too far. We must pause and consider again the whole question of aid and whether we dare let our aid decline.
  9.17 pm
  Mr. Frank Hooley: Two great issues of foreign policy will dominate the last two decades of this century. The first is nuclear weapons and disarmament and the second relations between the richest and the poorest people in the world. The first concerns the survival of all of us. The second concerns the survival now for 800 million people who live literally on the edge of starvation, many of whom are dying from hunger at this moment.
  The debate has thrown up a number of themes. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) dealt fiercely and effectively with the subject of cuts, but it is interesting that hardly any hon. Member made any defence of the cuts in aid, amounting to 11 per cent., announced recently by the Minister. In fact, a former Minister of this Government, the right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice), said that he would not be supporting the Government on this issue. The hon
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  Members for Chichester (Mr. Nelson), Anglesey (Mr. Best), Ilford South (Mr. Thorne),Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler), Hertford and Stevenage (Mr. Wells), and all my hon. Friends have condemned the Government policy of cutting the aid budget.
  The second theme is that of interdependence. The shadow of Brandt has been over the debate in that respect. Whether we are referring to trade, commerce, industry, defence, or even policies of high interest rates and deflation, the links with the developing world and the interests of the Third world recur over and over again, and these points have been made repeatedly by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The next theme was the interlocking nature of the problem as between Government Departments within our own Administration and our own society. The hon. Member for Anglesey and my hon. Friend the Member for Waltham Forest (Mr. Deakins) spoke of the need for coordination in our relations with the Third world not only involving the Foreign Office but also the Departments of Trade and Industry to make sure that, at all points of Government, the policies that we follow towards Third world countries have some relevance and some sense in relation to our domestic policies. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart) and the hon. Member for Chichester made interesting speeches about the problems of debt and the flow of capital towards Third world countries. I shall come to some of these points later in my own speech.
  The issue of trade has dominated the debate. The Minister himself laid great emphasis on the importance of trade. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton) also referred to the matter, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Waltham Forest and the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West. A false distinction is made in the arguments over protection and the liberalisation of trade. It is possible and feasible, in my opinion, to expand trade in a planned manner. In international affairs, the idea of planning and international agreement in trade matters rather than a totally free and uncontrolled flow is gaining ground. The prototype is the multi-fibre arrangement. I know that the arrangement is not beloved of Third world countries. I am also aware that enormous pressures are building up in Europe in relation to Japan, in Japan in relation to the United States, and in the Third world countries in relation to the great industrial markets.
  The notion that liberalised free trade—whatever its economic attraction—will solve problems is politically not on. Those who talk in terms of liberalising trade and thereby solving the problems of the Third world are not talking political reality. While there is every reason for the expansion of trade, for the encouragement of trade and, indeed, for the encouragement of the manufactures of Third world countries to come into the great industrial markets of Europe, North America and Japan, this will not be done by a laissez-faire approach. There will have to be some planning, some control and some international agreement.
  Another theme that has bulked large has been overseas students' fees. There have been two devastating critiques amounting to a damning of Government policy from the Conservative Benches. The hon. Member for Howden (Sir P. Bryan) and the hon. Member for Stroud (Sir A. Kershaw) to whom I apologise for leaving during his speech to have a sandwich—I am sorry that as a colleague of his on the Select Committee I did not hear his

  1195
  remarks—spoke eloquently and cogently of the crass stupidity of the Government's attitude in pushing up to ridiculous heights the fees for overseas students. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have set out the idiocy of this policy and the damage that it causes to our own interests, quite apart from its appalling effect on countries that for years have been friendly and well disposed towards us and which have been only too anxious to send their young men and women to our great educational institutions. Now we put obstacles in their way.
  The question of commodities was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson) and for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Sever) and by the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West. This is an important issue to which I hope to have time to return.
  The issue of arms and disarmament also bulked large. A penetrating and forceful speech was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) who pointed out the indecency of the fact that thousands, if not millions, of boys and girls in the Third world suffer from a curable blindness that a small amount of money could deal with. The amount is tiny and insignificant compared to the huge volume of pounds and dollars poured out in arms. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central also referred to the obscenity of the arms trade, and to the fact that this country, among others, pours out weapons to Third world countries.
  Two other more specialised matters were raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett) made a cogent critique of the failings of the European development fund, and my hon. Friend the Member for Waltham Forest touched on the fundamental and important problem of population. What I found slightly odd was the lack of attention paid to energy problems, not the price of oil, but the technical problems that face the Third world countries in exploiting and developing their own energy resources. I do not want to be unfair to any hon. Member, but I made fairly extensive notes and I can recall hardly a single contribution on that important matter.
  I wish to examine how we can mobilise and possibly reform the sophisticated machinery of international cooperation that has been built up over the past 35 years by the international community—for example, the World Bank, the International Development Association, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, the United Nations Development Programme, the International Monetary Fund and others.
  The World Bank has been described as the world's largest and most influential international development institution. That is one reason why, in the fifth report of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, we called for a substantial expansion of its role in the development effort. At this point, I take the opportunity to pay a compliment to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara) who chaired the Select Committee Sub-Committee on Overseas Development with considerable charm and skill. Although we shall miss him from that Committee, I congratulate him on his promotion to the Opposition Front Bench.
  The undoubted prestige of the World Bank enables it not only to disburse its own funds of about $13 billion a year but to mobilise other donors and other funds, and there is no doubt about the desire of countries to borrow from it. I am glad to see that there is authorised a general capital increase from $37 billion to $75 billion. I should
  1196
  like an assurance from the Minister that the United Kingdom will play its part in making a pro rata increase in subscription.
  The fifth report of the Select Committee referred to the importance of improving the borrowing-to-capital ratio of the World Bank—what is technically called "gearing". At the moment, that is an extraordinarily conservative ratio, by banking standards, of 1:1. We suggested that it should go up to 1.5:1, as suggested by Brandt, or preferably 2:1 as this would enormously increase the lending powers of the bank. Would the Government approve of a move in that direction?
  Another important feature is for the Third world countries to play a much greater role in the management and running of the World Bank. Do the Government agree with that policy? It is extremely important because Third world countries are under-represented in the management, and their nationals are under-represented in the staff of the bank.
  While I pay tribute to what the bank has achieved and can achieve, there are some worrying developments. The interest rate charged by the bank in June last year was 9.6 per cent. By December, it had increased to 11.5 per cent. I understand that it is now about 13 per cent., which is an appalling level of charge for the poorer countries which rely on its loans.
  The bank recently produced a report called "Accelerated Development in Sub-Saharan Africa", a report requested by the African countries. It has attracted a great deal of public criticism because the tone seems to lay a good deal of stress on free market and free enterprise trends in the outlook of the bank and on the way the bank approaches some of the problems of the poorest African countries. The bank's analysis is complex and thorough, but the remedies it seems to be suggesting in the report are distressingly reminiscent of the sort of policies that have wrecked Britain's economy in the past three years, and of the type of idiocy that goes by the name of "Reaganomics". One can only suppose that such remedies would have even more disastrous results if they were applied to developing African countries. The report is also disturbing because one sentence refers to the African Governments and States:
  "Without policy reform higher aid will be difficult to mobilise".
  That implies a threat. The bank is telling those countries that their economies should move in a certain direction. If they do not do so—to put it politely—
  "higher aid will be difficult to mobilise".
  They will not get the money. I hope that it is not a threat. I hope that the bank will live up to the ideals of its most famous president, Mr. McNamara, as a much more liberalised institution to help the poorer countries.
  Those who know more about such things than I are also disturbed by the apparent attitude of the new president, Mr. Clausen, in the economic policies which the recipients of the bank's money will be expected to follow. Hon. Members will no doubt tell me that what matters is not the bank but its alter ego, the International Development Association—the body responsible for giving soft loans to the poorest countries. In that respect, I shall quote from an important speech made by Mr. Clausen last September. He said:
  "IDA is clearly a sound economic investment for the low-income countries. But it also is a sound economic investment for the nations contributing to IDA who will one day earn substantial

  1197
  returns on that investment through expanded trade. That economic fact of life had been demonstrated many times over in IDA's 20-year history".
  That is right, but unfortunately it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Congress has cut its contribution to IDA by 25 per cent. by the simple expedient of extending the payment of money over four years instead of three. I am appalled that the United Kingdom should follow that bad example. There is some story that we have an alibi in that we promised to do what the United States of America does. That is silly—it is not a valid excuse. Sweden, Norway and Denmark have refused to follow that line and are not cutting back their contributions to the IDA. I tell the Minister and the Government most emphatically that it is extremely foolish for the United Kingdom to follow America's lead in this case. It will destroy orders and jobs in British industry and will penalise the poorest countries, which will be able to borrow far less.
  Those developments within the World Bank and the IDA are highly dangerous and damaging. To some extent they arise from the stupidity of American policy. They are contrary to the Brandt analysis and to the spirit of Cancun. More seriously, if they are pursued to any lengths they will drive the Third world to create its own institutions, which may divide the international bodies that are now genuinely international in the sense of linking both the Third world and industrial countries.
  If the World Bank and the IDA pursue a policy of high interest rates and a free enterprise economy and cut back on the soft funds available, the Third world may ask if that is right for them. Britain should not assume too lightheartedly that those countries have nowhere else to go. OPEC has vast funds at its disposal and its sympathies lie with the Third world. We should not discount the possibility that a division may grow up between those great institutions if the more illiberal policies take hold.
  A similar problem arises with the IMF. A little while ago there seemed to be a tendency towards liberalising the IMF's conditionality and towards coming to terms with the Third world's genuine need for borrowing when in balance of payments difficulties. There is evidence of a reversal of that trend. America's bitter and unjustified oppostion to the great loan to India is in an example of that.
  The rich countries of the world must make some move towards power sharing within the IMF. There must be a more generous allocation of the special drawing rights, an increase in the compensatory financing facility, and a restriction on the harsh conditionality terms that have been imposed hitherto. The West would be wise—in its own interests—to press on with creating a substitution account to take the strain off the dollar as an international currency. If we do not do that, "Reaganomics" will have an appalling backlash on Europe and on Britain's economy. I do not know whether Germany, the United Kingdom and the United States of America have any political will to develop such an account, but we shall regret it if we do not do so.
  I shall touch quickly on the subject of energy, because I implicitly criticised my colleagues for not doing so. In many respects, energy is an integral part of the whole argument. The increased price of oil has created great difficulties for the poorest of the developing countries. We had hoped that, as a result of the meeting at Cancun, an
  1198
  energy affiliate of the World Bank would be created. I hope that that idea has not been lost and that the Government still support it.
  Energy is an appropriate subject for debate in this House, because the United Kingdom is well placed to provide help for the Third world. Britain has great public corporations such as those for gas, coal, electricity and—if the Conservative Party does not destroy it—the British National Oil Corporation. They have enormous reservoirs of skill and technical knowledge, which could be made available to Third world countries to help them develop indigenous resources of gas, oil and coal. Thereby, we shall not only provide such countries with additional wealth, but will make an enormous contribution towards solving their balance of payments problems that press so heavily on them, because they have to import oil. In addition, Britain has a considerable technological expertise in solar, wind and wave power. Those sources will be of great importance in the twenty-first century, if not by the end of this century. Some Third world countries have great potential energy resources, but they need the capital and technical skill to develop them.
  I do not have time to deal with the commodities market, but that is in an alarming state. The surge in the price of tin should warn Britain that we cannot write off lightly the potential of some Third world countries to manipulate the market in the minerals which are vital to our industries. The Government's approach to overseas students' fees—and the pettiness of charging for treatment under the NHS when they eventually get here—to the British Nationality Bill, to the cuts in the aid budget as well as their approach to many other aspects of aid is mean, petty, inadequate and dangerous.
  We live in one world. We are interdependent. There is no way we can cut ourselves off or distance ourselves from the 2,000 million of our fellow human beings in Africa, Asia and Latin America. A Labour Government would increase aid and strengthen and reform international institutions. We would use the skill and technology of our public corporations and industry to help other countries. We would certainly abandon any pathetic belief that free market forces can solve these problems. We do not believe there is the remotest chance that such forces will bring the much-needed aid and succour to the people who live in destitution and face starvation.
  9.41 pm
  Mr. Neil Marten: With the leave of the House, I shall try to wind up the debate. May I first welcome the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) to the Opposition Front Bench, particularly at this time?
  The hon. Gentleman said that no one defended the cuts. I was not sure that that was necessary. Surely everyone knows that the measures that the Government are taking are
  "to promote the nation's economic recovery."—[Official Report, 15 December 1976; Vol. 922, c. 1525.]
  Those are the words that were used by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on 15 December 1976 when he announced his IMF package, when he cut aid by £50 million in the following year and £50 million in the year after that. Having just read that statement and the questions and answers that followed, I find it interesting that not one hon. Member from either side of the House raised the question of aid cuts. It is worth reminding the House that in spite of all the criticisms that

  1199
  we have heard today the Labour Party has done much worse than we have done. Of course, we all regret what has to be done.
  The hon. Member for Heeley spoke about reforming world institutions. We are always interested in finding ways whereby organisations like the World Bank can provide larger amounts of money for developing countries without involving increased contributions from the donors. An increase in the gearing ratio would be one such method. An alternative would be an increase in the amount of callable capital. Our major preoccupation must be to get the general capital increase in place before considering further devices.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to Mr. Clausen's speech in Tokyo recently. That speech is worth studying. He referred to the North-South expression which is used in the aid question. It polarises the issue—North and South. Mr. Clausen says that there are many more poles that should be in this. He wants to look at it in a multi-polar way—Europe, the new industrialised countries and various points. For anyone who is interested in the subject, his speech is worth studying.
  The Cancun summit and energy were also mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. We are supporting the energy affiliate, provided that we can get OPEC funds attracted to it.
  On Health Service charges, the hon. Gentleman said that we were being cruel to overseas students, but I have given an assurance to the House that when students come here on development courses paid for by the ODA we will cover their Health Service charges.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone) asked why the Government had resisted the proposal at the Paris conference to give 0.15 per cent of the gross national product to the least developed countries. Admittedly we were the last to agree, but I was at the conference, and I can tell hon. Members that there was no great pressure. The Government were making quite sure in the negotiations that by agreeing to give 0.15 per cent. to the least developed countries we would not deprive countries such as India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, which are not in that category, from receiving the aid due to them. That is a fair point.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned bilateral aid. In 1980 that amounted to 0.06 per cent. of the gross national product, which was the same as in 1979. That made up 30 per cent. of the bilateral programme of aid to the least developed countries. The figures for 1981 are not yet available. The performance against the target of 0.15 per cent. of gross national product also includes multilateral aid. The donor country's performance against the 0.15 per cent. target for aid to the least developed countries includes, in addition to bilateral aid, figures for expenditure by multilateral institutions imputed to donors in proportion to their contributions to those agencies. The figures are calculated by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, and we have not yet received those for 1980.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the United Kingdom procurement from the European development fund and the Court of Auditors' report, which was dealt with fully by the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett) and in the splendid intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Body). I agree with almost everything that was said. We are taking
  1200
  the matter seriously. I hope to discuss the matter with Mr. Pisani when we have a formal meeting of the Council of Ministers early in March.
  The hon. Member for Queen's Park also mentioned Nicaragua, which he raised at Question Time a few days ago. I am pleased to tell him that we are giving aid to Nicaragua. Subject to parliamentary approval, we shall contribute £20,000 to the International Committee for the Red Cross appeal for its activities in Nicaragua. We have also agreed to provide two further Land Rover ambulances for use by the International Red Cross in Nicaragua in addition to the two provided in 1980.
  Mr. Andrew Faulds: Would not the greatest contribution that the Government could make to South America be to oppose the Reagan Administration's intentions and policies in that part of the world?
  Mr. Marten: That is a complete non sequitur. We support many other countries in that part of the world, such as Belize in the Caribbean. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. McElhoneWe are grateful for any help that is given to Nicaragua, but that figure is derisory. It is much less than for any other European country. Will the Minister reconsider the figure before 'we become the laughing stock of the Community?
  Mr. Marten: No, I shall not reconsider it. As I explained at Question Time, we have already given a considerable amount of humanitarian aid. This is merely a top-up at the request of the Red Cross.
  The right hon. Member for Lanark (Dame Judith Hart), unfortunately, could not be here for the winding-up. I should like to correct one point that she made. The right hon. Lady said that under her tenure as Minister for Overseas Development no British aid had been given to Saudi Arabia. In fact, British aid to Saudi Arabia is recorded as £41,000 in 1976, £33,000 in 1977, £35,000 in 1978 and £7,000 in 1979. The Opposition, when they were in Government, gave aid to Saudi Arabia. That is the point that I wish to establish.
  Mr. Faulds rose—
  Mr. Marten: No, I am sorry. I must get on.
  The right hon. Member for Lanark also said, regrettably, that if the Labour Party ever came back into office—which is a very long-term prospect, purely hypothetical—it would separate the Overseas Development Administration from the Foreign Office where it is now. I can only say that that would be a great mistake, because it has merged extremely well. As somebody else said, there is a political input to all aid, and I think that the ODA should remain where it is and not be separated once again.
  Mr. Faulds rose—
  Mr. Marten: No, I will not give way.
  We also have two Cabinet Ministers from the Foreign Office, whereas when the ODA was separate there was no Minister in the Cabinet. Those two voices are worth a lot.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) made a very interesting speech on defence, which I shall study with interest.
  The hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton) wishes to spend more an aid. I note that, but the hon. Member asked why aid had dropped from 0.5 per cent. to

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  0.34 per cent. I have said a number of times in the House that the reason for that is that contributions to ODA could not be deposited because the United States Congress was in the middle of an election, and it delayed the United States deposit. For that reason, that huge chunk of money was delayed. Also, drawings from India were very slow that year. Those are two reasons why in that year the contributions dropped to 0.34 per cent.
  The hon. Member also referred to baby milk. This matter was raised last week at Question Time by the hon. Member for Greenwich. The hon. Member for Edge Hill said that we should have a properly established code of conduct. The World Health Organisation has established such a code of conduct, and it is the right organisation to go to the developing countries and implement the policy if they want help. I take his point. It is an important subject from a health point of view. Also, if one has clean water, that helps in many situations about which I know the hon. Member is concerned.
  I take the hon. Gentleman's point about wishing my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) to take over the EEC Commission. I will inform my right hon. Friend, who no doubt will speak to the hon. Gentleman about it.
  Overseas students were referred to by my hon. Friends the Members for Howden (Sir P. Bryan), for Anglesey (Mr. Best) and for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) and by the hon. Members for Don Valley (Mr. Welsh) and for Heeley. The student problem is largely one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, not for me, but I can say that the total number of students and trainees financed under the aid programme in 1980 was over 14,000. We expect the total for 1981 to be about the same. New awards in 1981 are likely to be about 4,600.
  Therefore, the question needs to be examined in two parts—those who are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and those who come here on a Government-to-Government basis under the aid programme.
  Mr. Phillip Whitehead roe,—
  Mr. Marten: I shall not give way.
  The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson) asked me to reveal what the feeling in the Cabinet was about the aid cuts. The Cabinet has a collective responsibility, and of course I cannot do anything of the sort.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked whether we could do joint operations with other countries in the aid programme. In fact, we do that. The dam in Sri Lanka is a joint operation, involving Sweden, Germany, the World Bank and us.
  With regard to the 0.7 per cent. of GNP going in aid, which the hon. Gentleman asked about, our commitment is exactly the same as that of the Labour Government. We agreed to it as a target, but progress must depend upon our own economic conditions. I hope that once we get the growth going in this country we can move nearer that target.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Soviet bloc aid, and he was backed up by the hon. Member for Waltham Forest (Mr. Deakins). The whole of the Soviet bloc aid is barely more than the total aid from the United
  1202
  Kingdom—a shattering figure—and that aid goes to those countries that are closely welded to the Soviet Union, such as Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan. The House rightly focused on that point—the almost cruel approach of the Soviet bloc to the developing countries.
  I was sorry to miss the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), but I had to be out of the Chamber at the time. I shall read it with great interest. The same applies to the speech of the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton). I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about preventable blindness. Successive Governments have for many years contributed to the multilateral efforts under the auspicies of the World Health Organisation to combat river blindness in West Africa. In addition, we are helping a number of countries by providing ophthalmologists and equipment under our technical co-operation programme.
  We are discussing with India its plans for a national programme for the prevention of blindness, which will be largely directed towards preventing blinding malnutrition. We await a formal request from the Indian Government.
  We are sharing with the International Agency for the Prevention of Blindness the cost of a project to rehabilitate blind farmers in Ghana. We also provide budgetary support to the agency, and we are co-operating with the Royal Commonwealth Society for the Blind on a number of projects, including a school for training ophthalmic assistants to work in rural areas in Bangladesh. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that we are doing what we can.
  I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we must not interfere with free trade. I had just come into the Chamber at the time, and I think that is what he said.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Not quite, but near enough.
  Mr. Marten: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will persuade his party colleagues to adopt that attitude. My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) made the same point.
  I should like to deal with many other points, but time does not permit. I shall write to the hon. Gentlemen concerned.
  I finish by thanking hon. Members in all parts of the House for their contributions. I ask them to support the Government's amendment.
  Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 65, Noes 117.

  Division No. 66]

  [10 pm

  AYES

  Alton, David

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Faulds, Andrew

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Foot, RtHon Michael

  Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

  Foulkes, George

  Campbell-Savours, Dale

  George, Bruce

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Cryer, Bob

  Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

  Cunningham, G.(Islington S)

  Hardy, Peter

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

  Homewood, William

  Deakins, Eric

  Hooley, Frank

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Howells, Geraint

  Dewar, Donald

  Hoyle, Douglas

  Dormand, Jack

  Janner, HonGreville

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  John, Brynmor

  Dubs, Alfred

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Eadie, Alex

  Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

  Evans, loan (Aberdare)

  Kerr, Russell

  1203

  Kilfedder, JamesA.

  Sandelson, Neville

  Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

  Sever, John

  McCartney, Hugh

  Skinner,Dennis

  McElhone, Frank

  Spearing, Nigel

  McNamara, Kevin

  Stoddart, David

  Millan, Rt HonBruce

  Welsh, Michael

  Morton, George

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Palmer, Arthur

  Williams, RtHon Mrs (Crosby)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Pitt, William Henry

  Winnick, David

  Powel1, Raymond (Ogmore)

  Roper, John

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

  Mr. Allen McKay and

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Mr. Frank Haynes.

  Rowlands, Ted

  NOES

  Alexander, Richard

  Fletcher-Cooke, SirCharles

  Alison, RtHon Michael

  Forman, Nigel

  Ancram, Michael

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Arnold, Tom

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Goodhew, SirVictor

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

  Greenway, Harry

  Berry, HonAnthony

  Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

  Biggs-Davison, SirJohn

  Grist, Ian

  Blackburn, John

  Hawkins, Paul

  Body, Richard

  Hawksley, Warren

  Boscawen, HonRobert

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes

  Hurd, Hon Douglas

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Jopling, RtHon Michael

  Brinton, Tim

  Kershaw, Sir Anthony

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Lang, Ian

  Brotherton, Michael

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Brown, Micheal (Brigg & Sc'n)

  Loveridge, John

  Bruce-Gardyne, John

  Lyell, Nicholas

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Buck, Antony

  MacGregor, John

  Budgen, Nick

  Major, John

  Cadbury, Jocelyn

  Marlow, Antony

  Carlisle, John (LutonWest,

  Marten, Rt Hon Neil

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

  Mates, Michael

  Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)

  Mather, Carol

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Mellor, David

  Dover, Denshore

  Mills lain (Meriden)

  Dunn, Robert (Dartford,

  Mills, Peter (WestDevon)

  Faith, MrsSheila

  Moate, Roger

  Fenner, Mrs Peggy

  Morgan, Geraint

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Morrison, HonC. (Devizes)

  1204

  Mudd, David

  Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

  Murphy, Christopher

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Neale, Gerrard

  Stainton, Keith

  Nelson, Anthony

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Neubert, Michael

  Stevens,Martin

  Newton, Tony

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Normanton, Tom

  Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

  Osborn, John

  Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

  Page, Richard (SW Herts)

  Thompson, Donald

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

  Percival, SirIan

  Waddington, David

  Pollock, Alexander

  Wall, Sir Patrick

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Waller, Gary

  Rathbone, Tim

  Warren, Kenneth

  Renton, Tim

  Watson, John

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Wells, Bowen

  Ridley, HonNicholas

  Wheeler, John

  Rossi, Hugh

  Wickenden, Keith

  Sainsbury, HonTimothy

  Wilkinson, John

  St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

  Wolfson, Mark

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Sims, Roger

  Mr. David Hunt and

  Speed, Keith

  Mr. Selwyn Gummer.

  Speller,Tony

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 32 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
  Mr. Deputy Speakerforthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House, recalling the Prime Minister's commitment to the Third World at last year's conferences in Ottawa, Melbourne and Cancun, and recognising the prime importance of trade and private capital flows to the progress of developing countries, welcomes the Government's decision to maintain an aid programme in excess of £1,000 million pounds, which provides a substantial and effective response to the real needs of the developing countries whilst helping to safeguard jobs in exporting industries in this country.

  PRIVILEGES
  Ordered,,
  That the Standing Order of 27th June 1979 relating to the nomination of the Privileges Committee be amended, by adding Sir Angus Maude.—[Mr. John Stradling Thomas.]

  Orpington Hospital (Emergency Services)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Newton.]
  10.11 pm
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: The great weakness of all Government institutions is their bureaucracy. It is easier and much more convenient for officials, sitting at their desks in remote offices, to treat private citizens as ciphers, mere units in any calculation for the allocation of public resources and better lumped together in groups than regarded as individuals with individual needs. Such an attitude of mind is common in all our public offices. In some it is excusable, but when it affects the personal services it is deplorable and damaging to the proper functioning of our democracy.
  All institutions of the National Health Service are in the business of human relations. No one seeks their help who is not already in personal trouble. The alleviation of personal distress, pain and suffering is their business. It is incumbent on those who make their living from the administration of the National Health Service to carry out their functions with due regard to this fact and to speak, plan and act in relation to the public with sensitivity.
  I wish to draw the attention of the House to a consultative document, issued last September by the South-East Thames regional health authority on the subject of accidents and emergency services in the 15 districts covered by the authority, extending from southeast London to Kent and Sussex. That body is a rather shadowy figure in Orpington. I rarely hear from it. It chose not to send me a copy of the document it has published. I obtained it from my own area health authority. I once telephoned the office of the regional administrator, Mr. Le Fleming, on a matter of some urgency, and I was told that he was too busy to talk to me. So perhaps I might have known what to expect.
  The consultative document was prepared for a body calling itself the Regional Strategies Group, membership of which consists mostly of planners employed by the authority, together with the odd medical man from the field stations in Kent and Sussex, and one solitary general practitioner. There was no one from the Bromley health district.
  The document is one of a series of operational plans and proposals that have been published in recent years. In parenthesis, I may say that the plethora of documents of this kind must be the reason why the number of administrative and non-medical staff of the National Health Service is so large compared with the number of nursing and medical staff, because clearly such reports generate a great deal of administrative work.
  The report makes a number of proposals concerning the staffing and facilities for accident and emergency services in the region. I am concerned with what it says about the Bromley health district and, in particular, about Orpington.
  The report's principal recommendation, to which I strongly object, is that the Orpington hospital should be downgraded to the status of a peripheral unit for the purposes of accident and emergency services, and that, in that context, the accident and emergency department at Orpington hospital should be closed from 8 pm to 8 am on weekdays and all day on Saturdays and Sundays.
  1206
  The justification given for that retrograde proposal is the need to spread medical resources more evenly within districts, and that as Orpington hospital, which is in the south of the Bromley health district, has a catchment population of 85,400, compared with 207,200 for Bromley hospital, which is in the centre of the district, it should be downgraded—if not closed—and resources concentrated on the Bromley hospital. To the bureaucratic mind, it would appear that that is QED.
  In fact, the proposal is misconceived and dangerously wrong for a number of reasons. First, Orpington has had a full accident and emergency service for as long as anyone can remember. To restrict it now to a service functioning only during office hours is to reduce drastically the standard of local medical care which hitherto has been available. Secondly, no one plans for an accident and for the need for an emergency service at a particular time. Such things occur at all times of the day and night, unexpectedly. Closing the service overnight and at weekends is not just a reduction in the service, comparable with a cut in services generally; it is a decision in principle to close down the service. Even a restricted service in terms of the actual facilities available would be preferable to a complete closure for however short a period.
  Thirdly, the extra distance and time for ambulances and patients in the Orpington and South Bromley health district area travelling to Bromley hospital will be serious in individual cases. In some, it may mean the difference between life and death. In almost every case, it must mean extra suffering. Yet the report smugly states:
  "We do not consider the distance between Bromley and Orpington hospitals—5 miles—to be"—.
  I leave out some words because they are not applicable to this case—
  "so great as to incur unreasonable hardship."
  It is neither equipped nor entitled to make that judgment. It is self-evident that the extra time and distance will result in extra hardship for the accident victim or heart patient concerned. How can any such extra hardship be called reasonable?
  Fourthly, the figures given in the document for the so-called "catchment" area are unreliable. The catchment area for Orpington far exceeds the 85,400 figure. My constituency's population exceeds that figure by itself. Much of the surrounding area, in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for Sevenoaks (Mr. Wolfson), who I am pleased to see here this evening, and Chislehurst (Mr. Sims), also depends on the Orpington hospital. Moreover, the population of the southern part of the Bromley health district is constantly rising. It is the growing part of the borough of Bromley. Because it is on the fringe of Greater London, there is a tendency for its population to increase as people move out from central London.
  Moreover, the close proximity of motorways such as the M26 and M25, especially when the line between Swanley and Sevenoaks is completed, means that the Orpington hospital is particularly strategically placed for emergencies which may occur in the areas encompassed by those motorways to the southof Bromley.
  The report gives the 1979 patients' attendances at the Orpington accident and emergency department as a far higher proportion of Bromley's attendances—27,314 to 42,862, or 53 per cent.—than the 41 per cent. which the purported catchment area of Orpington is supposed to bear to the Bromley figure.

  1207
  Fifthly, there is almost a total lack of appreciation in the report of the huge expenditure which a transfer to the Bromley hospital of the Orpington accident and emergency department for overnight purposes and weekends would involve.
  Bromley hospital is far inferior to Orpington on building space. The extra facilities needed at Bromley would only make matters worse. Bromley district area health authority is considering the purchase of additional land for the purposes of extending the hospital buildings. It is therefore ironic that Orpington, with ample space for development on a green field site already owned by the hospital, should be downgraded while additional money sorely needed to improve and maintain existing services, besides the accident and emergency services, is to be used elsewhere to purchase more land.
  I accept the need to restrict expenditure, but it must not be done at the expense of patients' lives, especially when money is still being poured out on building land purchases.
  That brings me to my final and perhaps most important point. Many of us believe that the proposal to downgrade Orpington hospital in this way is the thin end of the wedge and that the planners are intent on downgrading departments other than the accident and emergency services. The proposal suits their tidy minds because, being anxious to centralise all the borough's services, they want to concentrate them all in Bromley.
  I trust that that is not so, but I warn the Minister that there will be most strenuous resistance to this and to any other proposal which will deprive the citizens of Orpington of the medical services for which they have fought for so many years and which they deserve.
  10.26 pm
  Mr. Mark Wolfson: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) for inviting me to participate in the debate and to the Minister for agreeing that this would be possible.
  The proposed closure of the Orpington hospital emergency and accident unit during night hours and at weekends will seriously affect a great many of my constituents, because Orpington hospital provides the more sophisticated back-up facilities for Sevenoaks and the same consultants work both hospitals. The constituents who will be affected live in Sevenoaks itself, in Dunton Green, Riverhead, Otford, Kemsing, Knockhold, Badgers Mount and Halstead.
  As my hon. Friend mentioned, it is unfortunately a macabre but real possibility that as a result of the opening of new motorways in the area not only individual but also multiple accidents may occur. In addition to the motorways themselves, there will also be a number of interchanges, which will also increase the risk of accidents.
  Not surprisingly, my constituents are extremely concerned at this proposal, and so am I. The possibility of closure of the Orpington unit overnight and at weekends was discussed by all the general practitioners and consultants in Sevenoaks on 27 January. After lengthy and careful consideration, their opinion is clear. It is: "Any such closure would be seriously detrimental to the interests of their patients, they deplore it and wish their protest to be known at the highest level".
  In arguing against the closure, I wish to make five points specifically relevant to my constituents.
  1208
  First, the figures used in the report are not necessarily accurate. Patients from Borough Green, Ightham and Wrotham also use Sevenoaks hospital casualty unit. If their injuries require it, they are then sent on to Orpington. I understand that that fact was not adequately brought out in the report.
  Secondly, the casualty units at Pembury and Kent and Sussex hospital south of Sevenoaks could not handle referrals from Sevenoaks as they do not have the bed capacity to do so.
  Thirdly, Bromley hospital, to which my hon Friend has referred, has the necessary bed capacity. But if this hospital took the place of Orpington as back-up for Sevenoaks casualty cases. a most serious factor is involved—that of time. For my constituents, it would add further to an already lengthy journey. Although the additional distance suggested by the administrators is only five miles, that can be five miles of heavily congested road, particularly at busy times of day.
  Fourthly, if consultants from Orpington and Sevenoaks had to do follow-up work on patients who were in beds at Bromley—that would be necessary in many accident cases—ambulance costs would be greatly increased.
  Fifthly, the alternative possibility of merely downgrading the Orpington casualty unit to a similar level to that at Sevenoaks would, for my constituents, have exactly the same effect as closure. At the moment, it is the more sophisticated service available at Orpington that is so important.
  We in Sevenoaks and the surrounding villages need the Orpington casualty unit. We need it as it is now and not in any changed form either of hours of opening or of quality of service. It is my hope and indeed my firm demand that the Minister will heed the medical, patient and public opinion and maintain Orpington as it is today
  10.31 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on securing this debate about the future of the accident and emergency department at Orpington hospital. In his recent correspondence on this matter with my hon. Friend the Minister for Health he has shown his usual determination to ensure that his constituents' interests are not overlooked, and this debate is further proof that he is succeeding in that objective. I hope that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Wolfson) will forgive me if I do not respond as positively as they might wish.
  I say that because the main issue that has been raised is not at the present time one in which it would be proper for me to intervene. As I shall explain, no decision has yet been taken about the Orpington accident and emergency department. In any case, such a decision would be in the first instance for the responsible health authoritie to take, subject, if appropriate, to the procedure under which contested decisions about substantial service changes are referred to Ministers for decision. I shall briefly refer—it may help my hon. Friends—to this procedure during my reply.
  It is important to be clear about the current status of the proposal to reduce the accident and emergency service at Orpington and the context in which it arose. In September 1981 the South-East Thames regional health authority's regional team of officers issued a consultative document

  1209
  on the development of accident and emergency services. The document was distributed throughout the region, asking for comment by December 1981.
  In a foreword the regional administrator comments that:
  "Consideration of this document by the regional health authority will not take place until the views of interested bodies are canvassed".
  In other words, its status is that of a draft strategy prepared by officers on which members of the regional health authority have not yet expressed a view. It is important to keep this point in mind.
  The consultation document canvasses the possibility that all serious injury cases in the district should in future be taken to Bromley hospital and that the department at Orpington hospital should become a peripheral department, that is one not providing a 24-hour service. The document comments that such a rationalisation would lead to a better staffed and better equipped major department, providing an improved service to seriously injured people.
  It would not be right for me to comment on the merits of this proposal at this stage. The consultation document points out that a change of this nature could only be implemented in the long term and detailed planning would be required. As a first step it recommends that the Bromley area health authority, whose boundaries will remain unchanged when the new district health authority takes over on 1 April, should investigate the possibilities of such a change.
  It would then be for the Bromley health authority to decide whether any change should be made in the existing pattern of accident and emergency services in the district. However, I reassure my hon. Friends that, as the regional health authority has not approved the recommendation in the consultation document, that process has not even begun.
  To provide further reassurance to my hon. Friends, it might be helpful if I explain the procedures that health authorities have been asked to follow when they wish to close or change the use of a health building. I shall do so only briefly for clarification, as they have been described in many previous Adjournment debates and we are a long way from their possible activation in this case.
  First, the appropriate area health authority—after April it will be the district health authority—is required to prepare a consultative document covering such matters as the reasons for its proposals, the implications for staff, and, of course, the effect on patients who might be affected by the proposal, particularly—as both my hon. Friends said—in relation to transport facilities.
  Comments on the proposals in the consultative document are invited within three months from such bodies as the local community health council, the associated local authorities, joint staff consultative committees and other staff organisations, family practitioner committees and local advisory committees. Hon. Members whose constituents would be affected would also be informed of the proposals and invited to comment.
  Therefore, I can say to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington that he will automatically be invited to comment, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks that the doctors about whom he spoke will also have a proper say in the consultation.
  1210
  If the community health council objects to the proposals, it is entitled to submit to the authority a constructive and detailed counter-proposal, paying full regard to the factors that led the authority to make its original proposal. If the authority is unable to accept the counter-proposal, the matter is referred to the regional health authority. If it, too, is unable to agree with the community health council and wishes the closure or change of use to proceed, the case is referred to Ministers for decision.
  We have made it clear that where proposals are referred to us, Ministers will not agree to closure or change of use unless it can be clearly demonstrated to be in the best interests of local health services and the communities that they serve.
  However, as I have said, the next stage is to see whether the South—East Thames regional health authority endorses the consultative document's recommendations. If the RHA decides to recommend changes to the pattern of services, it will then be for the Bromley health authority to decide whether such changes should be included in its strategic and operational plans and to make any formal proposals to put them into effect.
  I have carefully noted the comments made by my two hon. Friends. I have noted with pleasure the Cook's tour on which they have taken the House, through the byways of Kent and the delightfully named villages that many of us know. I assure my hon. Friends that what they have said will be drawn to the attention of the regional health authority so that it can be in no doubt that there is strong feeling on the part of Members of Parliament who represent the constituencies that use the hospitals. When the consultative document is issued, they will have a formal opportunity to put their views.
  Mr. Stanbrook: My hon. Friend said, "When the consultative document is issued". Surely he cannot be referring to the consultative document that has already been issued. I have not been sent a copy. If Members of Parliament have a part to play in the consultative process, it does not seem to operate in this region.
  Mr. Finsberg: As I have tried to explain, there is a difference. The document that my hon. Friend has seen is a consultative document issued by the regional team of officials. That does not have the status of the consultative document that I have referred to. That document follows the other document's reference to the health authority for the members, not officials, to consider. When the authority decides that the document should be issued, the health authority, the community health council and Members of Parliament are formally notified and can put their views forward. Local citizens—whose numbers, from what I have heard, seem to be legion—have an equal right to put forward their views.
  The debate has been short, but valuable. Although we have concentrated on the Sevenoaks proposal, it may reassure hon. Members to realise that ultimately the procedures give individuals and organisations a wide-ranging power to put forward their views on proposals with which they do not agree. The final decision rests with Ministers. I assure my hon. Friends that Ministers do not take such decisions lightly.
  I hope that my comments will reassure my hon. Friends that there is ample time and opportunity to press their case

  1211
  with the health authorities concerned, if they decide to proceed with the proposals. The House will be grateful to my hon. Friends for raising—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at nineteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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  Textile Imports
  Textile Imports
  Business Names
  Business Names
  Newspaper (Prices)
  Newspaper (Prices)
  Imports
  Imports
  Bankruptcies
  Bankruptcies
  European Community (Car Prices)
  European Community (Car Prices)
  Non-executive Directors
  Non-executive Directors
  Liquefied Petroleum Gas Tankers
  Liquefied Petroleum Gas Tankers
  Sir Freddie Laker
  Sir Freddie Laker
  Textiles and Clothing
  Textiles and Clothing
  Coal Exports
  Coal Exports
  Pharmaceutical Services
  Pharmaceutical Services
  Shipbuilding (Aid and Credit)
  Shipbuilding (Aid and Credit)
  Gas Tanker (Solent)
  Gas Tanker (Solent)
SCOTLAND
  Trawlers (Convictions and Fines)
  Trawlers (Convictions and Fines)
  Religious Education
  Religious Education
  Rate Support Grant
  Rate Support Grant
  Enterprise Allowance Scheme
  Enterprise Allowance Scheme
  Museums and Galleries
  Museums and Galleries
  Cash Limits
  Cash Limits
  Council for Tertiary Education (Report)
  Council for Tertiary Education (Report)
ENERGY
  Amersham International Ltd.
  Amersham International Ltd.
  Atomic Energy Authority
  Atomic Energy Authority
  Coal Mining Subsidence
  Coal Mining Subsidence
  British National Oil Corporation
  British National Oil Corporation
  British Gas Corporation (Oil Holdings)
  British Gas Corporation (Oil Holdings)
  Refining Companies (Special Obligations)
  Refining Companies (Special Obligations)
  Liquid Petroleum Gas
  Liquid Petroleum Gas
  Power Stations (Coal Consumption)
  Power Stations (Coal Consumption)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Food Production and Consumption
  Food Production and Consumption
  Forestry Act 1981 (Land Sales)
  Forestry Act 1981 (Land Sales)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  School Buildings (Lead-free Paint)
  School Buildings (Lead-free Paint)
  Hospital Admissions (Statistics)
  Hospital Admissions (Statistics)
  Child Benefit
  Child Benefit
  Unemployed Persons
  Unemployed Persons
  Benefits
  Benefits
  Single Payments Regulation
  Single Payments Regulation
  Elderly Persons (Discharge from Hospital)
  Elderly Persons (Discharge from Hospital)
  Family Income Supplement
  Family Income Supplement
  Declaration of the Rights of the Child
  Declaration of the Rights of the Child
  Nurses
  Nurses
  Pensioners (Meals)
  Pensioners (Meals)
  Drugs
  Drugs
  Health Education
  Health Education
  Form HSA 4
  Form HSA 4
  Alexandra Private Hospital (Cheadle)
  Alexandra Private Hospital (Cheadle)
  Doctors (Deputising Services)
  Doctors (Deputising Services)
  Optical Charges
  Optical Charges
  Abortion Notification Forms
  Abortion Notification Forms
  Unclaimed Benefit
  Unclaimed Benefit
  Widows (Benefit)
  Widows (Benefit)
  Australia (Reciprocal Arrangements)
  Australia (Reciprocal Arrangements)
  Benefit Offices (Staff Numbers)
  Benefit Offices (Staff Numbers)
ENVIRONMENT
  Stevenage Development Corporation
  Stevenage Development Corporation
  World Cup
  World Cup
  House Building
  House Building
  Palace of Westminster
  Palace of Westminster
  South Manchester Law Centre
  South Manchester Law Centre
  New Town Development Corporations
  New Town Development Corporations
  Dangerous Cargoes (Mooring)
  Dangerous Cargoes (Mooring)
  Council House Rents (Manchester)
  Council House Rents (Manchester)
  Ryecroft Farm, Dore, Sheffield
  Ryecroft Farm, Dore, Sheffield
  Race Relations
  Race Relations
  Industry and Commerce (Local Authority Assistance)
  Industry and Commerce (Local Authority Assistance)
TRANSPORT
  European Community (Hospital Signs)
  European Community (Hospital Signs)
  British Railways
  British Railways
  A57 (Worksop Bypass)
  A57 (Worksop Bypass)
  Maryport Harbour Conunissioners
  Maryport Harbour Conunissioners
  Liquid Petroleum Gas Tanker (Solent)
  Liquid Petroleum Gas Tanker (Solent)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Interest and Exchange Rates
  Interest and Exchange Rates
  Oil and Gas Revenues
  Oil and Gas Revenues
  Inflation
  Inflation
  Taxation
  Taxation
  Overseas Investment
  Overseas Investment
  Stamp Duty
  Stamp Duty
  Financial Strategy
  Financial Strategy
  Interest Rates
  Interest Rates
  Inner Cities (Investment)
  Inner Cities (Investment)
  Poverty Trap
  Poverty Trap
  Manufacturing Industry (Investment)
  Manufacturing Industry (Investment)
  Economic Targets
  Economic Targets
  Charities
  Charities
  Treasury Economic Model
  Treasury Economic Model
  International Development Association
  International Development Association
  Index-linked Treasury Stock
  Index-linked Treasury Stock
  Tax-free Port (Preston)
  Tax-free Port (Preston)
  Public Service Pensions
  Public Service Pensions
  Unemployment Costs
  Unemployment Costs
  Budget Consultations
  Budget Consultations
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  Nursery Units
  Nursery Units
  Tax Allowances
  Tax Allowances
  Revenue and Expenditure
  Revenue and Expenditure
  Clearing Bank Deposits (Taxation)
  Clearing Bank Deposits (Taxation)
  Monetary Policy
  Monetary Policy
  Economic Growth
  Economic Growth
  European Community (Budget Contributions)
  European Community (Budget Contributions)
  Building Societies
  Building Societies
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  Social Security (Income Tax)
  Social Security (Income Tax)
  Personal Savings
  Personal Savings
  Public Corporations (Income)
  Public Corporations (Income)
  Industrial and Commercial Companies (Income)
  Industrial and Commercial Companies (Income)
  British National Oil Corporation
  British National Oil Corporation
  Personal Tax Allowances (Indexation)
  Personal Tax Allowances (Indexation)
  Duties (Inflation)
  Duties (Inflation)
  Public Expenditure Plans
  Public Expenditure Plans
  Aggregate Demand
  Aggregate Demand
  £ Sterling
  £ Sterling
  Members' Correspondence
  Members' Correspondence
  Beer (Duty)
  Beer (Duty)
CIVIL SERVICE
  Administration Trainees
  Administration Trainees
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Exeter): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Discounted Air Tickets
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the experiment in the sale and availability of discounted air tickets being carried out by some 2,000 IATA/ABTA approved agents on certain British Airways routes to the Far East, they are prepared to recognise such procedure as a legal transaction in all current travel arrangements.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, the present arrangements for the sale of certain British Airways tickets at reduced fares are legal because these fares have been approved by the Civil Aviation Authority. Any extension of the experiment would require further approval.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, is the Minister aware that when one asks a direct question, one always gets an evasion? The Question refers to what the Minister said last week, that he doubted whether there would be any difficulties with similar applications being granted. May I ask him whether his answer means, Yes or No? Might I further move on from that to ask him this, because I believe it is a serious point: does he appreciate that IATA, ABTA, and British Airways, have done a great deal of work to make these tickets more available to the general public legally, over the counter, rather than illegally, underneath the counter? Does he furthermore appreciate that all these organisations would like a forthright mention of approval from the Government, which they feel are always dragging their feet in this connection?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I remember that when I was first appointed to be a member of this Administration, somebody said to me that I would have to learn to say nothing in a thousand different ways. I fancy that I have exhausted most of them now on the noble Baroness. On the specific question put by the noble Baroness, it is for British Airways to make an application to extend the scope of the experiment and the CAA will certainly be happy to consider applications when they come forward. It is worth recalling that the particular application which gave rise to the present experiment was agreed in 24 hours.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, is the Minister aware that he is facing completely the wrong way? I have asked him a straightforward question.
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I am not referring only to British Airways. I am asking the noble Lord whether similar applications to that made by British Airways and agreed on New Year's Eve, and agreed by the CAA and the Government, will be approved for other airlines if the airlines carry out the conditions and apply in the correct way.
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, it depends whether the applications come from other British airlines or from other foreign airlines. Other British airlines must apply to the Civil Aviation Authority, whereas foreign airlines must apply through the governmental machinery. My reply to any application of that nature will be the same as it was last time.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, the House is patient and I do not know whether I am being stupid or whether the noble Lord is, but I really cannot understand what he is saying. I am asking the noble Lord whether if, say, a British airline made application to the Civil Aviation Authority to fly on cheap tickets, as has been done in this particular case, and if the application has fulfilled the conditions which British Airways have fulfilled, it also would be granted?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the noble Baroness is asking me to predict the outcome of applications to the Civil Aviation Authority. I regret that I cannot do that.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, why not make the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, a member of the Government and save all this trouble?

Broadcasting: Complaints Procedure
3.4 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will suggest to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission that natural justice demands that a complaint against a broadcasting organisation shall not be upheld without that organisation first being given an opportunity of defending itself.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead): My Lords, the Broadcasting Complaints Commission is responsible for regulating its own procedure, and it would not be appropriate for the Government to seek to influence the commission as to the way in which it discharges its responsibilities. But I know that the commission is determined to deal fairly with the complaints it receives, and that with that object in mind it keeps its procedures under review.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer, but I wonder whether he could go a little further. The complaint in question was not of itself important, but I wonder whether he is aware that nonetheless the method by

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which the decision was reached, without any consultation with the programme company which was supposed to have offended, has caused widespread concern, at an early stage in the commission's life, about its future intentions. I wonder whether the noble Lord can indicate that the commission has taken note of the widespread concern at the way in which this particular alleged offence was handled?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, the Broadcasting Act 1980 makes it clear that the commission should have discretion to consider a complaint either with or without a hearing. Parliament deliberately left the procedures for the commission fairly flexible and reasonably informal, and, if I may say so, I believe that was right. As I said in my original reply to the noble Lord, I know that the commission is determined to deal fairly with complaints and that, with that object in mind, it keeps its procedures under review.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, does that answer mean that an organisation or a person impugned before the Broadcasting Complaints Commission will not have the right, if not to be heard, then of defending itself or himself? Audi alteram partem is an old principle of law.
Lord Belstead: My Lords, the procedure is that if a hearing is held, then the broadcasting authority and the programme maker must be given an opportunity to appear and be heard. If there is no hearing the commission may receive written observations. That is the procedure.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that no observations were accepted from the programme company in this case but only a representation made on its behalf by the Independent Broadcasting Authority? Is it not desirable that, before a decision is made, at least a written submission should be received from the authority alleged to have offended?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, I quite understand what the noble Lord is saying, but I believe it would be wrong if the Government commented on the commission's procedures. I would for the third time like to say that the commission, with the object in mind of dealing as fairly as possible with complaints, keeps its procedures under review.
Lord Airedale: My Lords, how many times has the noble Lord in his own experience come to a firm decision after hearing the first half of a story, only to come to a completely different decision upon hearing the other half of the story?
Lord Belstead: My Lords, that is a completely hypothetical question. I do not believe it would help our deliberations at the moment if I tried to give a reply.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, would the noble Lord send to the commission a copy of this exchange of opinions in this House?

Compensation: Nationalisation
3.9 p.m.
Lord Harris of High Cross: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider the admittedly inadequate compensation paid by their predecessors under the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act 1977, in view of the cases being brought against Britain in the European Commission of Human Rights.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, it remains the view of the Government that the 1977 compensation terms should not be altered retrospectively. The Government will be submitting their observations on the applications mentioned by the noble Lord to the commission.
Lord Harris of High Cross: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cullen of Ashbourne, for that Answer, but I would like to ask him quite directly whether he might give a pledge that there will be no further requests by the Government for adjournments of the hearings before the European Commission? I want to ask him in particular and most ernestly whether he will bear in mind the trouble into which the Government got themselves over the closed shop issue where, as in this case, they took up an issue coming over from the Labour Administration and after many adjournments and five years' delay it was found to be in breach of the Convention and the Government were required to make retrospective amendment in the form of compensation in this new Employment Bill before the other House?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot satisfy the noble Lord by saying that we will not make further applications for more time before making our replies. The Conservative Government were never in favour of the Act the noble Lord is discussing, or the compensation terms, but have decided that there is no way in which they can retrospectively fairly change those terms.
Lord Monson: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that nowadays even in the majority of Eastern European countries, Warsaw Pact countries, Governments no longer confiscate their citizens' property? Will he perhaps concede that if this Government acquiesce in the Bennite compensation terms for the warship shipbuilders the Government will effectively be giving the green light to a future Government of the extreme Left to nationalise every business in Britain, large and small, virtually without compensation?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: Well, my Lords, I think perhaps in all quarters of the House it will be realised that it is not always easy, and very often it is impossible, for any Government to repair the damage of a previous Administration.
Lord Taylor of Gryfe: My Lords, will the Minister accept that it might be wise to re-examine not the amount but the basis on which compensation was calculated, considering the fact that the basis of calculation, particularly in the shipbuilding industry, was totally inadequate for an assessment covering the compensation for the whole industry?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord realises that there are nine applications by shipbuilding companies to the commission, and they will be examining the whole basis.
Lord Harris of High Cross: My Lords, may I try to help the noble Lord in a rather tight spot? May I ask this: In view of the harsh words the noble Lord himself uttered at the time of nationalisation, in which he said the compensation terms were having a disastrous effect upon confidence, would he personally urge his colleagues that the course of honour might be to present these terms to the European Commission without defence and allow the proceedings to go forward, I hope to the stage known as a "friendly settlement"?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I think the best I can do is to say that I will pass on those wise words of the noble Lord to my right honourable friend.

Supplementary Benefit Rate: Under-Fives
3.13 p.m.
Baroness Faithful: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government by how much the supplementary benefit rate for children under five has been raised since May 1979.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton): My Lords, the separate scale rate for children under five was abolished when the Government reformed the supplementary benefit scheme in November 1980. There is now a single rate which applies to children of 10 years old and under. The parent of a child under five would qualify for £3·50 a week more now than under the rates in force when the Government came into office. In addition, households with a child or children under five have qualified since November 1979 for an automatic heating addition which is currently worth £1·65 a week throughout the year.
Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply, which is very encouraging. I think this Government are showing an interest in children and particularly the children under five. May I ask the Minister whether he could ask his right honourable friend who is responsible in another place, to take account of the fact that there has been a 2 per cent. shortfall and could this shortfall be made good? The particulars of this are to be found in a book Children and Poverty.
Lord Elton: My Lords, if the noble Baroness is referring to the shortfall described in the book Children and Poverty, I must draw her attention to the fact that the book does not take account either of the heating allowance or free milk. The money received under the present scales is in effect in excess of the standard which the author of the book proposes as necessary.
Baroness Jeger: My Lords, are the Government aware that, though there has been an 8·2 per cent. increase in the allowance for November 1980 to November 1981, inflation has gone up 11·97 per cent. in the same time? Is he satisfied that £1·13p a day is sufficient for keeping a child up to 11 years of age?
Lord Elton: Well, my Lords, this is presumably not the sole resources of the family even if it is depending upon supplementary benefit.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, is it not appropriate to look at the general rate of inflation in relation to the expenditure of parents on children under the age of 10? Should not the Government rather have regard to the figures in the household expenditure survey which show a fairly sharp rise has occurred since the Government came into office in 1979 in respect of expenditure on childrens' clothes, for example, which have gone up by more than the effect of inflation? Would the Government, therefore, re-examine the figures given to the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, to see whether some additional measures of help are required for this group of children?
Lord Elton: My Lords, the requirements of every group under supplementary benefit are looked at with great care every year. The uprating time is November; the review is at the time of the Budget. I really would not want to anticipate anything at this stage.
Lord Kilmarnock: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that there is a very good case for a home responsibility allowance for mothers whose earnings are affected by children under five who are not yet going to school?
Lord Elton: My Lords, I am not certain I caught the drift of the noble Lord's question. If he is talking about one-parent families, we have already taken note of that problem. The parents benefit from a special tapered earnings disregard, so that of any earnings between £4 and £20 a week only half is offset against their entitlement to benefit, which does remove a great deal of the disincentive for working.
Lord Banks: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the increase in the benefit for children under five to which he referred was paid for by loss of benefit to other claimants?
Lord Elton: Not at first blush, my Lords, no.

Administration of Justice Bill [H.L.]
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to

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make further provision with respect to the administration of justice and matters connected therewith; to amend the law relating to actions for damages for personal injuries, including injuries resulting in death, and to abolish certain actions for loss of services; to amend the law relating to wills; to make further provisions with respect to funds in court, statutory deposits and schemes for the common investment of such funds and deposits and certain other funds; to amend the law relating to deductions by employers under attachment of earnings orders; to make further provision with regard to penalties that may be awarded by the Solicitors' Disciplinary Tribunal under Section 47 of the Solicitors Act 1974; to make further provision for the appointment of justices of the peace in England and Wales and in relation to temporary vacancies in the membership of the Law Commission; to enable the title register kept by the Chief Land Registrar to be kept otherwise than in documentary form; and to authorise the payment of travelling, subsistence and financial loss allowances for justices of the peace in Northern Ireland.
I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Lord Foot: My Lords, if it is in order, may I inquire whether this Bill will take the place of the existing statutes of the realm?
The Lord Chancellor: No, my Lords, but it will improve them in certain respects.
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Agricultural Training Board Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Industrial Training Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Reserve Forces Bill [H.L.]
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Shipbuilding Bill
Read a third time, and passed.

Deer (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. When I first became involved with this Bill, it did not take me long
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to realise that the whole subject of deer in Scotland, and the impact of legislation on deer to sportsmen, deer forest owners, farmers, crofters and those engaged in commercial forestry, is a controversial one, and as I have gone further into it I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that it is really quite an emotive one. But I do not believe that it is a matter any more likely to arouse excitement now than it did over a century ago. Then, the competing interests of the various affected parties led to the formation of a Select Committee in another place:
"to inquire into the laws for the protection of deer in Scotland with reference to their general bearing on the interests of the community".
This was the first of no fewer than six different committees or commissions appointed by Parliament to make recommendations on both conservation and control of deer. Looking at the long list of noble Lords who have indicated their intention to speak this afternoon, I am quite certain that we shall hear much to cover every point of view and I am very grateful to those who are to take part.
The first effective deer control measure to reach the statute book was the Agriculture (Scotland) Act 1948. That Act gave the occupier of agricultural holdings and enclosed woodland, or his nominee, an unqualified right to kill deer found on his enclosed land and to dispose of the carcases. It thereby sought to protect his livelihood from damage by, for example, deer eating his crops, and in view of the fact that there was no practical compensation available for any damage to agriculture, allowed the occupier to sell the carcases.
However, there are, of course, two aspects to the deer question: control, such as the 1948 Act allowed for; and conservation. The 1948 Act did nothing to deal with poaching or cruel methods of killing or taking deer; nor did it provide the species with the protection of close seasons. In 1959, all these matters were reviewed and enacted in the Deer (Scotland) Act of that year. Perhaps the most striking innovation of that Act was the creation of the Red Deer Commission. This body was designed to bring together, regulate and reconcile the various interests relating to red deer which had hitherto been in conflict. Of course the establishment of such a body did meet with some scepticism about how effective it might be, and concern was expressed about how it might use its powers.
Nevertheless, I think it is true to say that to a very great extent the sceptics have been agreeably surprised. Of course the Red Deer Commission has its critics as any public body, effective or otherwise, has; but it is generally recognised that the Red Deer Commission, under its successive chairmen, has been remarkably effective in reconciling conflicts and promoting good management. I believe also that it might be generally agreed that it is to no small extent due to the Red Deer Commission that the traditional "deer problem" is by no means the problem that it once was. Thanks are due also to those in your Lordships' House and elsewhere who framed the 1959 Act so effectively. Of course it has been amended since and, indeed, other related legislation has been produced; but the framework is good and, in seeking to modify it further now, I am particularly keen not to dismantle its basic structure. But in 23 years aspects of the deer question in Scotland have changed somewhat and I believe, as

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the commission does, and I believe many of your Lordships may also, that the time is ripe to bring the Act up to date to take account of current circumstances.
The historical "deer problem" in Scotland was mainly concerned with red deer—hence the Red Deer Commission. Although there are certainly regional fluctuations in stock numbers, the number of red deer is increasing. In 1970 it was estimated that there was a stock of about 185,000 red deer; this had risen to 255,000 by the end of 1979. But there are also three other species present in significant numbers: roe, sika and fallow. To those concerned with control of damage caused by deer, particularly foresters, roe have been becoming at least as much of a problem as red deer, and sika and fallow cannot altogether be ignored.
I do not suggest—and this Bill does not propose—that the Red Deer Commission becomes a deer commission. Nor do I propose that what is needed is a new commission for roe deer. But the Red Deer Commission does pick up a fairly substantial knowledge about the distribution and habits of deer of species other than red deer and, of course, keeps very closely in touch with bodies which have a more direct interest in them. I would argue, therefore, that it is only good sense that the public should be able to tap the commission for the knowledge which it has, and that in this respect its specific advisory powers should be widened, but without laying on it the full panoply of control powers and other duties which it bears in relation to red deer. To this extent I hope that my noble friend the Minister may be able to indicate at what point after the passing of the Bill—if, indeed, it does pass—he would consider making an order in this respect.
But the active control of these other species remains primarily one for those most directly affected—that is to say, the occupiers of agricultural land and wood-land. This brings me to another major change, in environment, which has occurred since the 1959 Act was passed; that is, that there has been a very considerable increase in the area of commercial forestry in Scotland, much of it on what was traditional red deer range and wintering ground. To take only the decade between 1970 and 1980, the area of forestry plantation in Scotland either owned by the Forestry Commission or aided by them under the dedication scheme, has increased by about 250,000 hectares—that is an increase of 50 per cent. And as I said earlier, the countryside stock of red deer has also increased over the same period.
Accurate assessments of roe deer stock are very difficult to make but the Red Deer Commission's estimates, based on information extracted from venison dealers' records, seem to indicate a total stock of between 125,000 and 175,000 about three or four years ago, and that is more or less borne out by more recent specific checks. Assessment is difficult because roe are a woodland species, but few would argue that as a species they are not ubiquitous.
Unfortunately, it is a fact that deer in forestry, especially in new plantations or where restocking has taken place, can be a serious pest. A woodland owner can only afford to tolerate them to the extent that he is prepared to accept a delay in his trees reaching maturity. Furthermore, the losses incurred
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through damage to trees, often surprisingly severe, can only be partially offset by the value of sporting lets and by the sale of venison.
It is of very considerable importance now, therefore, to ensure that forestry owners have adequate legal powers, coupled with adequate checks on those powers, to kill deer where necessary in order to protect their crops. I am satisfied that at present there is absolutely no conservation problem with roe deer. I am also very ready to admit that there are very many aspects of deer and forestry management which can alleviate the damage that deer do and make it easier to carry out culling in the way in which we should all like to see it done.
Roe deer thrive. They are attractive, beautiful creatures to all of us and no one likes to see them around more than I do. Indeed, no one would be more upset than I if there were ever to be a roe deer or, for that matter, any other deer conservation problem as a result of the passage of this Bill.
But I am bound to say that there are many in Scotland, bearing in mind the different circumstances which prevail there, who are involved, not only with commercial forestry but at the same time with deer management groups, who are absolutely convinced that provided the checks on control powers are effective —which under the terms of this Bill I believe they will be—this proposed legislation will serve the interests of both the sportsman and the forester, and to some extent the deer themselves.
Before I turn to the actual provisions of the Bill, I should like to deal with one final aspect of the deer question which perhaps is much the same now as it was in the 1950s—in some respects anyway—but perhaps due to modern technology has probably become more severe, and that of course is poaching. If I have a single interest to declare in promoting this Bill, I suppose that it lies in my own love of stalking rather than in protecting my small garden against maurauding roebuck, although the temptation, early on a summer morning, with sometimes three or four roe from nearby woodland coming onto my lawn and eating my shrubs, is considerable but one that to date 1 have been able to resist.
Not only from the research that I have undertaken over this Bill, but more particularly from the lengthy conversations which I have had over the years with the owners of deer forests and, perhaps more importantly, with, for example, their stalkers and others who live on the land day by day and know what is going on throughout the year, I never cease to be appalled at what I hear about the extent and horrible nature of deer poaching, the cruelty so often involved and the apparent ease with which the poachers get away with it.
This Bill proposes to make poaching a much less worthwhile enterprise, by considerably increasing the penalties which have escaped revision over the years. For example, we are now in a position where a poacher who gets away with it may expect to sell a stag carcass for at least £100. If he is caught and convicted however, he faces a maximum fine of £20. Clearly, this is now absolute nonsense and it must be put right. The Bill seeks to do this and at the same time will plug one or two other loopholes in the existing law

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which I shall come to in due course. I should now like briefly to summarise the Bill's provisions.
The first five clauses deal with the powers and administration of the Red Deer Commission. Clause 1 allows the extension of the advisory function of the commission in the way I described earlier; that is, to other species of deer as may from time to time be specified by the Secretary of State. It also extends the whole range of their powers which apply to red deer, including those involving active control methods, to sika—a species which are akin to red deer in many respects, for which there is a stock now of between 4,000 and 5,000 and which can interbreed with red deer. This gives effect to a recommendation made by the Forestry Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on Science and Technology in your Lordships' House.
The next group of clauses concerns the administration of the commission. Clause 2 empowers it to appoint one of its own members of staff to be an observer at any local panel set up by the commission. The idea behind this is to ensure that adequate communication exists between the local panel and the Red Deer Commission. Clause 3 concerns Section 6 of the 1959 Act. This is the section under which the commission principally operates for deer control purposes. Section 6, as it stands, cannot be invoked unless the commission is satisfied that deer "are coming into" agricultural land, or woodland, and causing damage. It does not apply where deer are established on the ground already; in other words have become resident marauders. This is becoming more and more the case as natural range and wintering ground is eroded by, for example, forestry enterprises. Clause 3 remedies this omission. It also alters the legal specification of the type of damage which deer do and which can be acted upon, to reflect more precisely the type of damage which they have been found to cause. The clause also extends from 14 to 28 days the maximum period for which the Red Deer Commission may authorise a person to shoot marauding deer. As it stands the authorisation is renewable and the purpose of this change is simply to ease the administrative burden by removing the need for too frequent renewals.
Clause 4 is connected with the wider powers conferred on the commission in Clause 1. Under Clause 1 they are not to take control powers for species other than red deer or sika. But situations can and do arise when the commission's stalkers, in the course of action against red deer, may incidentally discover damage being inflicted by other species. It seems only sensible that when this occurs they should have the right, always provided that the owner agrees, to shoot these other deer.
Clause 5 concerns the chairman of the Red Deer Commission, and I think need not detain us long. It merely brings the conditions of service of the chairman of the commission, who is its only salaried member, into line with the conditions applying to members of other comparable public bodies.
I now turn to Clause 6, which deals with firearms and ammunition. This is a subject on which there are very many experts, not least in your Lordships' House. Each of us has his own ideas about what is a suitable weapon to kill deer with, and each idea is backed by sound arguments. Suffice it to say that
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it is unlawful to kill deer otherwise than by a firearm. I can quite understand that there are those who would like to see a minimum calibre of rifle specified, or at least a limited ban on shotguns. Indeed, there is probably a minimum provision on which we could all agree. I have listened to lengthy discussions in your Lordships' House on the subject in the past, and I fear that if we repeat them again we might never get to the end of considering this Bill. However, I hope that we might hear from my noble friend Lord Mansfield later, that if the Bill should pass, the Government will take speedy action to consult interested parties, so that the necessary order may be made as soon as possible. I myself hope that any such order would be no less stringent than the provision made in other Acts applicable to deer.
Clause 7 is quite the longest in the Bill. Much of it consists of re-enactment of the provisions of the Sale of Venison (Scotland) Act of 1968, which would be repealed. But it does do three things which are new: it requires venison dealers to be licensed rather than at present just registered. A licence, as envisaged, would have finite validity whereas at present there is no means of removing a name from the register. Moreover the Bill introduces the possibility of disqualification from holding a licence as a penalty for a dealer convicted of an offence.
The second innovation in this clause is that it empowers the police to inspect venison dealers' records. Formerly, this was only open to the Red Deer Commission to do, and it should, therefore, materially assist in the detection of poaching offences. And, thirdly, the clause makes it an offence to trade in venison which has been killed unlawfully if the trader knows or has reason to believe that the venison has been killed unlawfully. This, I think, is a most important and valid provision, and together with the other two can only help to make the life of the poacher far more difficult.
Clause 8 sets out the rights of an occupier of enclosed agricultural land or woodland to shoot deer, or have them shot on the land. It replaces the existing provisions contained in Section 43 of the Agriculture (Scotland) Act 1948 and Section 33 of the 1959 Deer Act. There are two parts of these rights: the right to shoot in close seasons, and the right to shoot at night. Somewhat different considerations apply to each of these, and I shall deal with them separately.
First, out of season shooting. The present position under the law, as I described earlier, is that the occupier has an unqualified right to shoot deer on his land and may authorise anyone at all to do so. Now this is widely regarded as one of the most effective aids to the commercial poacher who may obtain several such authorisations and produce one as an excuse when found in possession of carcases. The new subsection puts some restrictions on the occupier's right to grant authorisation, not to the extent of jeopardising his right to protect his crops, but to limit abuse. Under subsection (3) of the proposed new parts of Section 33 of the 1959 Act the occupier will retain his personal right to shoot. He may also authorise an employee, or anyone resident on the land in question, who for example may be expected to know the ground and perhaps share the occupier's interest in its protection. If, however, for any reason the occupier wishes to

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call in outside assistance he will have to get the persons concerned vetted and approved by the Red Deer Commission. So much for out of season shooting; and I believe that this provision will be widely accepted by those who understand the need to get properly to grips with the poaching problem.
I now turn to night shooting, and I am only too well aware that it is an exceedingly controversial subject, and perhaps the area which will lead to most discussion on the Bill. It is covered in the proposed subsections (4), (4A), and (4B). The law at present is that an occupier in person has the right to shoot deer at night on enclosed agricultural land or woodland. He has no powers to get anyone else to do it for him. Furthermore, if the occupier is not what the law describes as a "natural person"—not as opposed to an unnatural person, whatever that might conjure up in the mind, but as opposed to a corporate body—nobody at all is entitled to shoot them.
Bodies corporate cannot pull triggers. I need hardly add that the Forestry Commission, the occupiers of the largest forestry estate in the country, are a corporate body and therefore have no right to protect their interests by shooting deer at night. This Bill proposes that an occupier may nominate others for authorisation to the Red Deer Commission. The Bill does not envisage that night shooting would be any more than an exceptional or last resort power, and under it the Red Deer Commission will have to satisfy itself not only that the persons authorised are fit and competent but that the operation is absolutely essential to prevent damage.
I do not expect the commission to authorise night shooting by others under conditions any less stringent than they set for themselves. And while as a sportsman I find the idea of shooting at night thoroughly distasteful, I am perfectly satisfied that it is quite possible to set the emotional aspects apart when it comes to the need, however undesirable in many ways, to exercise control of creatures which are becoming pests, and pests are what they can become to those whose economic future depends on maintaining reasonable numbers.
This clause does not seek to allow indiscriminate slaughter either of red deer or roe deer at night. Indeed, since the authorisation will have to come from the Red Deer Commission, and because the Secretary of State may under the existing terms of this Bill be able to specify what types of deer the commission may advise on, there will I hope be a considerable measure of responsibility vested in the Red Deer Commission to advise on the conservation of roe deer at sensible, mutually advantageous levels. I do not regard this proposed measure as a thin end of the wedge so far as night shooting is concerned. What is proposed is a very limited, strictly controlled and humane method of culling which may be authorised to supplement all the less drastic measures which can be used—and I refer here to forestry planning; the provision of control clearings, the size of forestry blocks, and the width and length of downfall between blocks, and fencing, et cetera, as well as shooting by day. All these put together contribute towards the effective mutual management of deer and forestry, but it is essential that the ultimate sanction of shooting deer at night should not be outside the law.
I now turn to Clause 9 of the Bill which, together
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with Schedule 2, amends the penalties for all offences under the 1959 Act. The maximum fines proposed are in line with those of comparable offences under present-day legislation. In particular they are identical to those for similar offences under the Deer Act 1980 which applies to England and Wales. It will not have escaped your Lordships' notice that the Bill reflects the English legislation in allowing a separate fine to be imposed for each deer involved in an offence. Under the Bill also poaching will become an offence punishable by imprisonment, as other offences involving deer have been all along. And lastly, Clause 9 takes account of the very comprehensive forfeiture provisions which now exist under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975.
I end, as I began, by saying that the subject of deer is an emotive one. I do not believe that any legislation on the subject would be without controversy. But we must all accept that all interested parties—deer forest owners, occupier-farmers, the forestry owners, and of course the deer—must co-exist. To do nothing to the law relating to deer would be equally controversial and any measure which is going to have a chance of success must, by the nature of things, be a compromise.
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, could he refer briefly to one important point? Are the proposals which he is asking us to accept bringing the law in Scotland nearer to the law in other parts of the United Kingdom or taking them further away? This is important, bearing in mind the very large deer population in the Border areas.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, I think that this is a point that will be amply covered later on. There are differences between Scotland and England. I think the noble Lord will become fully aware later on that they are not entirely the same—in some respects close and perhaps in others slightly wider apart.
The Scottish Office consultative document of last year was widely accepted as presenting helpful ideas. The Bill largely corresponds with the views expressed to the Scottish Office as comments raised on the substance of that document. Furthermore, the Bill has received general acceptance from many interested parties, though of course there are differing views on details. Many of those views will become apparent during this afternoon's debate. I certainly, and the Government I know also, will give serious consideration to the views which noble Lords, with their considerable breadth of knowledge, will express.
The really important thing is that out of all the deliberations and debates should come a sensible, practicable and mutually beneficial Act which will serve all interests for many years to come. To this end, I should like to thank the parliamentary draftsmen and the Scottish Office for their work and for their enormous help to me personally, and for the skill they have displayed in striking what I believe is an effective balance. I commend this Bill to your Lordships as a reasonable compromise in all the circumstances. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time. —(Lord Glenarthur.)
3.49 p.m.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur. In crystal clear terms he has explained the need for the Bill, which I think the whole House accepts, and, secondly, he has explained again clearly the broad lines that the Bill follows. I am only too conscious of the fact that having got the 1980 Deer Act on to the statute book, and having succeeded in adding some important provisions concerning deer to the Government's Wildlife and Countryside Act, I began to make a nuisance of myself by turning my fire on Scottish deer legislation and insisting that it was time that it was brought up to date.
The Minister of State, the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, was extremely patient throughout all this and very helpful, and I should like to express my gratitude to him. I also thank him for having prodded the relevant authorities in Scotland into getting together to fashion the Bill, and all who are interested in deer are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, for taking on the burden and, if I may say so, risking his neck in what will be a period of controversy on these matters, so early in his parliamentary career. We are indebted to him for introducing the measure not only clearly but very agreeably.
We are all agreed that a Bill to reform deer legislation in Scotland has been greatly needed for a long time. The existing legislation—I look with some trepidation in the direction of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, who has parentage in these matters—is dreadfully deficient now, being full of loopholes and quite outdated, so I must welcome the Bill wholeheartedly. I make only one initial comment on the method chosen for reform. When I came to work on the English Deer Bill, it became obvious that the sensible way was to repeal the whole of the existing legislation and then to re-enact it with amendments. I cannot help but think that that would have been a clearer and easier procedure both for the legislators, as we are, and for the police and public, who have to understand and work it afterwards. It is in fact quite complicated to follow the various amendments back through the parent legislation.
Despite my welcome for the Bill, I assure the House that I do not say in any ungrateful way that I am a little surprised and disappointed that those drafting the measure do not seem to have taken fully into account the real progress we made on principles and on precise drafting in the recent English deer legislation and in the Government's own legislation, the Wildlife and Countryside Act. In Committee stages over several years we hammered out carefully drawn principles and precise drafting so as to make the law on deer explicit, up-to-date, easier to understand and consistent between its parts.
Allow me to give examples of apparent failures in the Bill. South of the Border, anyone killing deer in the close season must be able to prove to the court, if charged with an offence, that his action was necessary to prevent serious damage. Not so under this Bill. Yet we all know that this is one of the blackspots in the 1959 Act. It is disappointing that the Bill allows close season killing when deer are merely found on the land. That is very disappointing indeed. We know the abuses that leads to now, and how important
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the matter is. The noble Lord himself used the words "the need for checks", but I am afraid his check on this one is not adequate.
I was most careful in my Deer Bill to give the Latin name for sika deer as "cervus nippon" in order to take in all sub-species of sika, whereas the present Bill gives "cervus nippon nippon", which of course specifies only Japanese sika deer. It would be a brave man who would assert in your Lordships' House that only Japanese sika are now feral in this country; and even if it were so, it would still not cover the possibility of other sub-species of sika escaping from parks.
To take a third example, in your Lordships' House we established the important principle that offences should be punishable by maximum fines in respect of the deer involved in the offence. The noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, said he had tried to follow that, but I am afraid he has slipped up. The principle is enshrined in the 1980 Act and was carried forward by the Government in their own Wildlife and Countryside Act; but under this Bill, anyone, for example, snaring more than one deer—in other words, not using a firearm—would be liable to a maximum penalty in respect of each deer. But if he shot more than one deer with a prohibited firearm—and I hope the whole House would agree that that would have equally bad effects—he would be liable under Clause 6 to only one fine. That is another omission we shall have to rectify and which should have been rectified in drafting in the first place. It will be seen that certain provisions in the Bill do not seem to have been thoroughly thought out, and we have a lot of work to do in Committee. I suggest that some of the progress we made in the House over those many weeks—indeed, years it became in the end—could be looked at so as to incorporate those same sort of provisions in this measure.
A final example I would give is the whole of what would become Part IIIA of the parent Act; in other words, Clause 7 of this Bill. In the debates in this House on the Deer Act and the 1980 Act, we spent much time getting as right as possible the provisions relating to transactions in venison, especially as a weapon against poaching. We made considerable improvements on the present law in Scotland relating to the Scottish Venison Act 1968 and its effect on poaching. The need to tighten up here is even greater, in my view, than it was in England when we were looking at the Deer Act, and I will give one example. On 28th December last, only a few weeks ago. in a huge, double-spread article, the Scotsman said:
"Poaching is getting worse. Its considerable rewards have equipped some gangs with Argocats, a soft-wheeled cross-country buggy, for carcase extraction. In Sutherland, motorised poaching which can hit remote deer sanctuaries has ghosted out entire deer populations".
The article went on a little later:
"A small gang in a central location may net £15,000 from deer alone".
I will not quote further; noble Lords who are more expert than I on the scene in Scotland know that that is absolutely true and that it is time to tighten up as hard as we can on matters covering the poaching industry. Yet in this Bill, the drafting of the proposed Part IIIA leaves very much to be desired. Instead of profiting from the 1980 Act—

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even perhaps improving on it—the draftsman has fallen back on the old 1968 Act, thus perpetuating recognised weaknesses of which we are all aware. I have heard—I may be wrong—that an entirely new Clause 7 is to he put forward in Committee. I hope that is true. If not, many of us will want to give notice that we shall wish to move many amendments to that clause in order to improve it. Those are just a few examples of the Bill's deficiencies. After all, the Bill must be a blueprint for many years to come; we do not get a chance to reform the law on deer very often, so we must get it right now. We cannot go on nibbling at this particular cherry.
I come to the duties of the Red Deer Commission with regard to the authorisation of night shooting, which is Clause 8(4)M(a) I, and those working with me, very much hope that the commission will adopt a very strict code of practice, a set of criteria, for shooting at night; and perhaps we should amend subsection (4)(a) to insist that a code be drawn up and published. Apart from what is in the subsection— I shall seek to have it amended in certain details—the sort of considerations I have in mind are: first, all other legal control methods should have been tried before night shooting is allowed; secondly, a minimum calibre of rifle must be specified; thirdly, the type and power of spotlights must be controlled; fourthly, the precise area covered by the permit to shoot at night must be given in that permit; fifthly, to cover the danger of wounding, the use of a trained dog should be required; sixthly, the period of the permit should be as short as possible; and seventhly, the local police authority must be informed. There is no reason why we should not work out the kind of code of practice that needs to be followed in the dangerous area of night shooting.
I have been speaking of matters of detail, and finally I turn to suggest three areas where, at Committee stage, we shall have to debate matters more of principle, where in my view the Bill is deficient. I have already mentioned that we cannot surely allow the mere presence of deer to justify out-of-season shooting; serious damage must be evident. in addition, I suggest that the right of an occupier to shoot out of season must be more explicitly regulated, as in the English Act. In this connection I ask the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, to look at the schedule to the Wildlife and Countryside Act—the Government's own legislation—where the matter is carefully regulated for England and Wales, and see whether we cannot follow it for Scotland. Similarly, with regard to night shooting, I think that there will be a majority in this House for limiting it to red and sika deer. It is quite unnecessary to shoot other species, particularly roe deer, at night. But I shall reserve further comment on this point until the Committee stage, because I know that many noble Lords join me in feeling that it must be rectified.
I think it worth noting—and I hope that noble Lords appreciate it when we think about the question of night shooting—it so happens that from next Tuesday, when a Government order brings into effect in England and Wales the relevant schedule to the Wildlife and Countryside Act, it will actually be an offence to take or kill at night any deer at all, of any species. I admit that there might have to be some departures, but I hope that we shall not get too far away from that
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principle when we finally shape the Scottish legislation.
I am sure that those most knowledgeable about deer in Scotland will be adamant that the right to shoot at night must be hedged around by the same kind of conditions that should be attached to out-of-season shooting. Frankly, I do not think that we can accept the demands of forestry interests for over-liberal rights in this matter. In a letter the Minister of State tells me that he cannot himself make an estimate of the number of occupiers who have overriding rights in the matters covered by Clause 8: shooting at night and in the close season. This is a worrying point, and we all know the abuses that it allows.
Lastly, in the areas more of principle, there is the question of prohibited weapons—and the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, touched upon this. We spent a lot of time getting this right in the English Act. I submit that at least the provisions applying to prohibited weapons south of the Border should apply, with the Minister having power to amend the list by order.
I hope that I have not sounded too critical, but this is the kind of issue on which one must set out one's position, and despite my criticisms, I repeat my welcome for the broad lines of the Bill. It takes us a long way down the road that we have to travel in the coming weeks. In Committee we shall need to amend it in order to secure a version that will be readily acceptable to the several principal interests whose good will is vital. I am sure that with reasonable give and take we can get a splendid piece of legislation; otherwise, I have doubts about how effectively it will be both accepted and enforced. Yes, my Lords, a reforming Bill has been badly needed for some time. We must be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, for having the courage to make the first move.
4.3 p.m.
Viscount Thurso: My Lords, in rising to speak on the Bill, I suppose that I ought to declare an interest in that I am a registered venison dealer who has on occasions supplied your Lordships' refreshment department, but I do not think that that need inhibit me in regard to anything that I want to say. In particular, it does not inhibit me from thanking the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, for the extremely lucid way in which he has introduced the Bill to the House and from wishing him success with its passage through this House and eventually another place.
This kind of legislation is needed. It is over 20 years since the principal legislation which the Bill seeks to amend was enacted. There is no doubt that since then there has accumulated experience which shows clearly lines along which legislation should be amended as well as clear action which should be taken. However, before we start criticising either the old legislation or the measures now suggested for its amendment, we should congratulate the architects of the old legislation on the astonishing success of the Red Deer Commission. It has been a most remarkable body comprising the conflicting interests of all those concerned with red deer in Scotland. It included representatives of the Nature Conservancy, land ownership, sport, farmers, crofters and in particular hill sheep farmers. The conflicting interests of all those people and their representative bodies are enshrined in the original legislation. They were brought together in the Red

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Deer Commission in which they have demonstrated their ability to talk to one another and to talk sense. I do not know about the talk sense part of it, but I can testify as to their ability to talk to each other on a reasonable, sensible level, having myself been a member of the commission under two chairmen and having seen the workings of the commission from the inside.
Whatever might be said about the English legislation on deer, England has nothing as good, as useful or as practical as the Red Deer Commission. I felt that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, at times made rather heavy weather of his criticisms of the Bill in that he totally ignored the fact that it is built around the existence of a useful body such as the Red Deer Commission. The Bill is not merely putting legislation into the hands of the police and other people, hoping that it will work; it is handing over legislation to the control of a body which has proved itself able to work and to gain co-operation between the conflicting interests.
One of the difficulties that will face your Lordships during the whole discussion of this subject is the fact that the Bill admits the control of roe deer into deer legislation. It is to be only a tiny part of the legislation and indeed of the Red Deer Commission's work to have to deal with roe deer but this is, I believe, the emotive and difficult part where what is good for red deer and for sika will not necessarily be good for roe. This is the whole difficulty of our legislating for all species of deer in one Bill. The fact is that not all species of deer behave in the same way. They might equally well cause damage to the same crops but they do not do it in the same way or at the same time, and controlling them on such occasions is not necessarily achieved by the same methods. It seems to me a weakness of the legislation that we have now admitted roe deer into the orbit of the Red Deer Commission. I could have understood the omission of sika deer, although everything that applied to red deer could have applied to sika deer, but this is not totally true of the roe; and this is one of the difficulties which will undoubtedly concern your Lordships during the discussion of this legislation.
However, if we look at the provisions for the control of red deer and of sika deer there are one or two points in the Bill which I should like at least to ask the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, about, and draw to your Lordships' attention. In Clause 3 of the Bill, concerning the power of the commission to deal with marauding deer, the wording of the 1959 Act is being quite radically amended. It is admitting into the wording of that Act and into the powers of the Deer Commission (and, presumably, through the Deer Commission, other people) the power to control deer where they are competing with agricultural stock for food. I had always understood that the powers of control were vested in the Red Deer Commission only in so far as the deer were marauding on to enclosed land—" enclosed land "as described in the Agriculture Act.
This is a new concept. On the hill, it seems to me that deer compete with all forms of stock that you may put on the hill and all forms of stock that you put on the hill compete with deer. It seems to me that we have now taken away the deer's rights to any specific ground at all. Up until now one tended to regard deer as having a right to roam the hill and to roam the
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heather and the moorland, but once they crossed the farmer's fence they were marauding. Now it is not quite clear whether this will still be so. I should like some explanation of what is intended in this regard, and how it is thought that this change in the wording will affect the rights of the deer to an area which they may populate without being considered to be marauding.
Then, we come to the question of firearms and ammunition in Clause 6 of the Bill. The Secretary of State is being given powers,
"to make such order as he thinks fit regarding the classes of firearms and ammunition which may lawfully be used for the purpose of killing or taking deer …".
Here, he is enjoined to seek advice from people and organisations which, in his opinion,
"represent persons likely to be affected by the order".
But there is nothing actually written into this clause of the Bill which makes him take the advice of the Red Deer Commission, which is in fact the body, as we have already seen, which represents a meeting of all interests in deer and which has a very well compiled and long history of information on what is the best weapon, what is the method, and so forth, to be used in the control of deer. I feel that in this clause we ought perhaps to enshrine the role of the Red Deer Commission rather more clearly, so that it is known that it is its advice which is principally going to be taken by the Secretary of State for Scotland, although we know that it is his principal advisers.
There is another aspect of this Bill about which I am not totally clear, and it concerns the giving of power to the Red Deer Commission to appoint observers to its deer panels. To my knowledge the deer panel, although embodied within the principal Act, is not an institution which has been frequently used by the Deer Commission. I think it has been used, but I do not know that it has been used recently. It certainly was not used, as I remember it—I may be wrong in this—during my time on the Deer Commission, and I wonder whether there is an intention to set up deer panels; whether that is why the legislation is being amended in this respect. I wonder why it was thought necessary to amend the legislation about deer panels if they are not bodies which are going to be used. If they are going to be used, I wonder what the thoughts of the Government are about how they should be used or why it has become necessary suddenly to use them.
It has been suggested that the extension of the work of the Deer Commission to other species and to wood-land in particular is going to cause a great deal more work for the Red Deer Commission. If so, is it its intention, then, to hive off some of these jobs on to panels? I should like to hear a little more about that, because it is unclear to me why these panels are necessary.
Then there is the question of venison dealers. This is a very big step forward. We have had registered venison dealers of which, as I have told your Lordships, I am one. Now there are going to be licensed venison dealers, and the licences are going to be removable. This is a very considerable step forward. Also, their books are going to be open, not only to inspection in confidence by the Red Deer Commission but to inspection by the police, which is an enormous step forward against the poacher. I think that if we

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take this fact and the very much enhanced scale of penalties at the end of the Bill, we can see that there is a very firm and powerful blow being struck against poaching. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, on having taken such powerful measures into his Bill, because I think that, together, these high penalties and the inspection of the dealers' books will in fact really "put the skids" under the poachers in a way that has not happened since the Deer (Scotland) Act was first enacted. I am sure that this will do most of what is needed to get the poaching menace under control.
I think that the press is exaggerating the poaching situation. One cannot reconcile populations being "ghosted out of existence" with a rise in the total population from 185,000 to 255,000. The populations of deer in some areas must be rising enormously fast if in fact in other areas they are disappearing and the total is still increasing. I think we have to admit that there are areas where bad poaching is taking place. We have to admit, on the other hand, that the population of deer in Scotland is not in any way under threat. At the moment if it is under threat from poaching in certain specified areas and it is also under threat from cruelty by poaching, it is not under threat of extinction, certainly so far as red deer and sika deer are concerned, and I doubt very much whether it is under threat so far as the roe deer are concerned because I know that in my part of Scotland, in Caithness, the number of deer is rapidly increasing with the increase in forestry. With the trees come the roe; and this is why attempts are being made now to control them.
The last point that I want to make is, in a way, a small one. I cannot see why it has suddenly become necessary to pension the chairman of the Red Deer Commission. We have had this excellent body, composed of the interests of all the different sections of the community who have a concern with deer; they have willingly put their efforts into making this body successful—and a success they have made of it. The chairman of this commission, although he is paid, because he is expected to spend a certain amount of time in Inverness or on business of the Deer Commission in other places, is not meant to be a whole-time Government servant. He is a part-time Government servant. I think it would be wrong if he became whole time.
If he has so much work to do that he has to spend all his time working at the Red Deer Commission—so that he has to get a manager to run his farm and his peat business for him—it would be better, surely, to get other members of the commission to carry some of the load rather than having it all carried by the only full-time employee of the Government on the Red Deer Commission. One must not lose the character which made a success of the commission. With this in mind, I wonder why it is necessary to legislate for a pension for a part-timer. It may not be intended for the present chairman but it may indicate an intention for the future as to the role which the chairman is expected to play. With that in mind I mention this. With that minor criticism and with my other caveats, I welcome this Bill. It is useful updating of legislation which is doing a useful job.
4.22 p.m.
Lord Dulverton: My Lords, in following the noble Viscount, I must congratulate my noble friend Lord Glenarthur on his introduction of this so badly needed Bill to bring the Scottish deer legislation up to date. As other noble Lords have said, he set it out with great clarity and we must be grateful to him for that, too. I take issue on one point only which I may as well mention now. He said that equal damage was caused in the forests as between the red deer and the roe deer. I would say that, whereas the roe deer can be very damaging when the trees are young and not very high, the red deer can go on bark stripping and causing great damage almost right through the life of the crop. With that point in parenthesis, I would return to my general feeling of a great welcome for the Bill and thankfulness to my noble friend for bringing this business before us. I hope that in the light of your Lordships' experience during the long passage of Lord Northfield's Deer Bill, now the Deer Act 1980, this Bill will have an easier ride. That Bill took a very long time. I thought that the noble Lord's speech just now was most important and very interesting. I can only think that there can have been few occasions when noble Lords sitting on both sides of the House were more in agreement than during his speech a few minutes ago.
The Scottish lobby, of course, says, "We don't want to follow the English in this". Nevertheless, a lot of thought was put into the English Bill, now the Act. Although the Act relates to England, and the conditions are not the same in Scotland, the general aim of the two measures is very much the same. The present Bill seems to have three broad aims. First, the revision and extension of the Red Deer Commission's duties in the light of over 20 years' experience and changing circumstances; secondly, the revision, and in some cases extension, of measures to protect agriculture and forestry from serious damage by deer; and, thirdly, the taking of stronger measures to combat what I call commercial poaching, which is so often highly organised, ruthless and cruel, and the subsequent illegal dealings in vension which follow the poachers' activities.
I should declare a variety of interests in this Bill: as a farmer and a forester in the Highlands, as having some responsibility also towards a rather large deer forest, as president of both the Timber Growers of Scotland and the British Deer Society, as well as being a member of the Red Deer Commission; and the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, who has just left our counsels, has been there, I think, longer than I. So I have my feet on both sides of the fence, as it were, in regard to this Bill. The views that I try to express are personal ones, unencumbered by divided loyalties, where these might occur.
There has been much prior consultation on this Bill between interested parties and between them and the Scottish Office. I should like to pay tribute to Sir John Gilmour, so recently retired from his well-known membership of the other place, who has chaired the working party consisting of landowners, farmers, foresters, Deer Society members and others. I think he has done a marvellous job in getting a general consensus among them which, I hope, and to some extent believe, may have been of some help to the Scottish Office in the work they have put in on this subject. In connection with Sir John Gilmour's work-

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ing party, it is a cause of some regret that certain important matters have been omitted from, or side-stepped by, the Bill. My noble friend doubtless can give the reason for that. I think it worth mentioning.
Many of us had hoped—and we hoped in the Deer Commission; although I speak personally and not for them—that the position of deer farmers themselves, something of a new phenomenon, would have been defined and clarified in relation to the law. A code of conduct over the practices of deer farming is a pressing matter and the rules are unlikely to be the same as those for the wild deer which are considered in this Bill. The use of weapons has been referred to by other noble Lords and the use of weapons with inadequate stopping power is of great concern. We threshed this out at great length, as the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has said, under the English Deer Act and arrived at compromises over the use of shotguns (which some of us did not want used at all) with reasonably adequate kinds of ammunition for use at short ranges, despite the protests of some that shotguns, as in Europe, should be banned completely. I know the arguments on the other side.
We came to agreement over the ballistic requirements of rifles which are normally used against deer, and those requirements are certainly not far wrong. Yet now in Scotland, having got this Bill before us, we seem to leave it to the Secretary of State to make orders on this matter. The deer of Scotland and England, despite being on either side of the Border, are the same flesh and blood and need the same treatment on the part of those riflemen who have to control them. Meanwhile, it is ridiculous that in Scotland we can, if we wish to be irresponsible, continue to use the .22 rabbit rifle on red deer. That is very wrong and wounding. May we ask that the Secretary of State gives immediate attention to this matter and lays his order before Parliament for an affirmative resolution soon?
In the matter of illegal dealing in venison, it is regrettable that there is no adoption of the carcase movement register suggested by some as a practical alternative to a carcase tagging scheme. The latter scheme involves certain difficulties under Scottish conditions. The carcase movement book would provide a very good check. I understand that it was rejected by the Scottish Office because it would increase public expenditure to some extent and was thought to be putting legitimate shooters of deer to undue trouble. I cannot think that a carcase movement register could increase public expenditure significantly. Any inconvenience to legitimate croppers of deer would—speaking as one of them—be entirely acceptable for the protection of their interests.
I am moving as quickly as I can through this Bill. I have given a little recital of my interests and I could let myself go. I am trying to hold myself in rein. To pass to the next point, some of us are a little concerned over the power conferred on the Secretary of State to add roe deer to the Red Deer Commission's responsibilities. That could be all right if it were limited to being an advisory role. My noble friend Lord Glenarthur told us this afternoon that that is what it would be. I cannot find that it says so in the Bill. I may be incapable of reading properly between
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the lines; but I cannot find that. I do not think that the commission could as at present staffed and constituted, cope with anything further than an advisory role because roe are so numerous and virtually ubiquitous throughout the whole of Scotland, whereas the red deer and the sika are confined either to the Highlands or to certain parts of South-West Scotland. Could we have some assurance on this point?
Clause 2 of the Bill, dealing with research matters, is wholly to be welcomed although a noble Lord opposite queried whether these panels were a good thing or not. I entirely welcome the clause. Under Clause 3, the phrase that deer can be shot out of season, and so on, when, among other things, they are competing with farm animals for food, is extremely loose. Does that apply to any form of sharing pasturage, which is often normal and acceptable? Some ecologists argue that deer as grazers and sheep as grazers are to some extent non-competitive. I know there can be a situation of over-stocking where that is not so; but competing with them for food is another matter and the phrase is awfully loose. One could argue that a deer eating one blade of grass was competing to some extent.
I pass on, my Lords. Throughout what I call the defensive parts of the Bill, Clauses 3, 4 and 8, there is a case—which I hope there is no need for me to labour—for putting in the adjective "serious", as in the English Act. I am sorry to quote the English Act, particularly to Scottish Lords, but "serious damage" or at least "substantial damage" would be better wherever the word "damage" occurs. At the moment it just says "damage".
A definition of "enclosed land" as opposed to "unenclosed moorland" is badly needed. "Enclosed land" would presume some kind of stock fence, or does it mean a deerproof fence maintained in effective condition or an old dyke or wall which fell down years ago and does not keep anything out? This raises a more difficult point in law than might appear, but it is an important matter.
These three defensive clauses seem to exclude the owner of the land, as opposed to the occupier, from even consultation or notification in the case of shooting out of season or at night. That will make it difficult for the owner to fulfil his statutory obligation to make returns of deer killed on his land. I do not know what can be done about it, but that is a point that I should mention to your Lordships.
Under the important Clause 7, which is new and deals with venison dealers, there is something about the licensing of venison dealers by district councils which I should like to offer to your Lordships. I urge that the councils should consult with the Red Deer Commission who have a great deal of intelligence as to the fitness of a number of likely applicants for licences. Whether that should be enshrined in law or dealt with in some other way, I think is a serious point.
Now I turn to the business of the extension of night shooting, as proposed in the Bill, so that others other than the occupier himself may practise this. I do not think anybody really likes it but a lot of my forester friends demand it, and I include my friends in the Forestry Commission. If I may be so bold, I think I have a number of forestry friends sitting in your Lordships' House this afternoon, and I do not think that they like it very much. I am at least gratified that

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my colleagues in the Red Deer Commission are given, and are accepting, powers to monitor and sanction cases and persons in this connection.
I have come to the view that there is a case for night shooting in Scotland in those great big forests where the red deer have got in and are established whether inside a deer fence or, as in the case of the Forestry Commission down in Galloway, without a deer fence. They have got in and they are established there. They are doing damage. They are jolly difficult to get at in the day time; they lie up in the thickets. I am persuaded that there is a case on certain occasions, monitored by the Red Deer Commission, for doing some night shooting against the red and the sika deer.
I am not at all happy about extending it to the roe deer, those charming little woodland sprites from whose depredations among newly planted trees I as a forester have suffered sorely—and still do. Yet I am utterly opposed to the extension of night shooting in their case for three reasons. First, they are so widespread all over Scotland, and even through reasonably built up areas, that it could well be beyond the scope of the Red Deer Commission to monitor cases and monitor the credentials of the operators who are going to shoot at night. They need to be closely monitored otherwise there will be an awful accident. Think then of the possible dangers in areas of human population where the roe certainly are.
Besides this, there is a far greater danger of wounding such small targets as the roe and then being unable to follow them up in the dark. The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, said that operators must have a dog with them; but even so it is sometimes difficult to follow the dog in the dark in a thicket plantation. I feel I am giving your Lordships a recital of my various personal involvements but I speak as an ex-chief instructor of the army sniping school, sniping and observation in the last war, and I know a little bit about rifle shooting. I give that as my credentials for making that remark about the roe.
Also on the roe deer, night shooting is unnecessary. There is a race of stalkers and forest managers today who can prove an ability to control roe effectively without resort to night shooting. The higher echelons of the Forestry Commission should be prepared to take the trouble to find out about such methods and give their rangers suitable direction and training and to modify their forest design—the noble Lord who preceded me mentioned this—because forest design is important. I have on occasion spoken up for the Forestry Commission in your Lordships' House and I have a very great regard for much that they do, so I hope that they will not resent this rather censorious remark, which is certainly not directed against their rangers. In fact, if I may make so bold, I think that some of their very best rangers would agree with what I have just said.
I could, with diffidence, praise the help of the British Deer Society in any effort towards more effective control and training of roe stalkers if that were acceptable at all. The British Deer Society do run very successful little courses in England, training roe shooters. I will not labour the point but I wanted to mention the fact. Having said all that, I should like again to wish my noble friend well and I would repeat my anxiety not to occasion undue delay in the passage of his most welcome initiative in bringing this Bill before us.
4.41 p.m.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I think I should begin by declaring my interest, which is probably fairly well known. I own a deer forest, I have a sheep farm with sheep farm tenants, and I am also on the deer committee of the British Field Sports Society. I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Glenarthur for his very lucid and clear introduction of the Bill. However, I am afraid I cannot agree with everything that he said; as regards deer the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, is rather more after my own heart.
I should like to support what my noble friend Lord Glenarthur said regarding poaching. This has grown appallingly in the last few years. I believe that one big venison dealer has made a statement that the amount of legal venison exported from Scotland now is about £2 million, while the poachers' amount is also about £2 million; so there is a black economy, if you like—free of tax. If you add on to that the number of poachers actually selling to hotels at home, it is probably a great deal greater. Of course, it is quite riipossible for the police in these vast tracts of land in the Highlands, and for the stalkers and keepers, actually to apprehend poachers because, as my noble friend said, they have all the latest modern scientific means. They can drive over the hills in tracked vehicles or Argocats and they also have citizens' band radio, so that they can have accomplices at various road intersections to warn their friends if the police are coming. Also they shoot chiefly by night. I have myself suffered from this quite a lot on my estate. They shoot largely by night with extremely powerful searchlights and use a form of telescopic sight so that they can shoot in the dark.
It is a very serious matter, and therefore I congratulate my noble friend on Clause 7. I think that it probably may need some redrafting, but it will act as a great deterrent to poachers and will make it far more difficult for them to sell their ill-gotten gains. However, I am very worried about Clauses 3, 4 and 8. My noble friend Lord Dulverton mentioned those clauses. Clause 3, which refers to an amendment of the 1959 Act, says this:
"for the words 'that land' there shall be substituted the words 'any agricultural land or woodland or garden ground or injury to farm animals (including competing with them for food)'".
I have never known wild red deer do any injury to farm animals. I understand the Red Deer Commission have had three instances in their years of office where a farmer who was feeding stock: whether he was feeding on a open hill or in an enclosed pasture, I do not know, but apparently a stag came and butted a sheep or some such thing. Down here I have deer in a park where they are among sheep and cattle the whole time and they have not caused any injury.
Another thing I am a little bemused about is the phrase referred to by my noble friend Lord Dulverton:
"(including competing with them for food)".
I agree that if you have a clamp of potatoes or turnips and the deer eat them, that cannot be allowed; but it is a different situation if they are just on some old pasture, probably badly fenced, in the middle of the winter and they are half starved. After all, the red deer is a browser and not a grazer. He does not

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have the same habits as sheep or cattle. So I think the phrase is too wide.
Turning to Clause 4, I think that roedeer come into this too. It says:
"Where the Commission are satisfied that deer of species other than red deer or sika deer are causing or are likely to cause damage …".
When it comes to the Committee stage we must strike out the word "likely". It refers to the Red Deer Commission and their so-called stalkers who, in my opinion, know very little about stalking. However, that is only my opinion. They might be going through a wood; they see roedeer and say, "They are likely to cause damage" and they shoot them. That is not good enough. The provision is too wide.
Turning to Clause 8, of course I am very disturbed about this. I agree that under the old legislation any crofter or any farmer has had the right to allow anyone to shoot deer on his land all the year round. I have heard of one croft where I gather police apprehended people on the road whom they suspected of having deer carcases in the car, and they used to say, "We shot them on old So-and-so's croft. He allowed us to shoot them". It so happened that this man's croft was only about 12 acres and the police told me that in the year well over 100 deer had been shot there by bogus acquaintances. Many deer forests with thousands of acres do not do that. This new clause will stop that happening, and so I like this clause as far as it goes.
But how about the poor owner? With due respect to crofters and farm tenants, my experience has been that they know very little about deer. The average owner of deer land, who is quite likely an amateur naturalist, knows far more about deer, but his advice is not asked at all by the Red Deer Commission. So this clause is drawn far too widely.
May I refer to the Forestry Commission? I am sure your Lordships know that the power behind this Bill is the Forestry Commission and the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. I have sheep and sheep tenants, but your Lordships must remember that the sheep breeders drove the Highlanders off the hill in the early part of the 19th century, and we do not want to see them drive the deer off the hill, because there are several million acres in the Highlands which can support only deer. You can have a few sheep there in the summer, but that is uneconomic. So we must not let the sheep farmers drive the deer off the hill, as they did the Highlanders.
In Galloway and Dumfries-shire, the Forestry Commission have done a lot of planting in the last 15 to 20 years, and a lot of their plantations are not deer fenced, although they are sheep fenced. As the red deer is a woodland animal, it comes into the woods in hundreds in the cold weather. But the correct thing for the commission to do is to deer fence properly. Though the Forestry Commission deer fence in the Highlands, they do not keep up their fences. I have had this trouble on my estate, and I am always going on about it. I agree that in heavy snow, which you get on the East Coast though not on the West, the deer might get in, because the snow drifts across the fence and freezes, but the onus ought to be on the Forestry Commission. After all, they have all that
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state money and they should be made to fence properly. Furthermore, as my noble friend Lord Dulverton said, it ought to be laid down in law what enclosed land is. Many farmers put up a few rotten posts and a strand of wire, and call that enclosed land.
Before I end, I should like to say that the police must be notified when there is night shooting. That is essential. We do not want a lot of young men wandering about with rifles during the night. The bullet from a high-velocity rifle can go two miles and it is highly dangerous if they are anywhere near a road. I have probably outrun my time, but before I close I should like to put in a plea for the deer. After all, deer are the hardiest animals that we have. They can live on the hills where no other animals can live; we get a higher price for their meat than for sheep; they are not subsidised and are no expense to the taxpayer; they are in their natural environment and they are the natural animal of the Highlands. It all goes back to Lloyd George. When Lloyd George spoke of the stags in the Highlands under the spreading oak trees, up to their withers in clover and driving the people off the land he did not know what he was talking about, and seldom did. I hope that when we reach the Committee stage my noble friend Lord Glenarthur will be happy to accept some amendments or, at least, will deal gently with them.
4.55 p.m.
Lord Lovat: My Lords, I was interested that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, who is leaving the Chamber, referred to an article written in the Scotsman about the trouble which the red deer population is getting into in Scotland. If he had looked at the paper a day or two later, he would have seen a photograph of a royal stag, walking down the street in Braemar and posing in front of a butcher's shop. I think that gives an idea of how the loss of habitat has grievously afflicted the deer population, which has drifted away from the Highlands and moved into areas where it has become nomadic and, therefore, a danger to agricultural interests.
The Highlands have suffered from, or enjoyed—whichever way you look at it—the flooding of their glens for hydro-electric development, and the hillsides of the valleys and glens have been afforested. I think that most of those forests have been reasonably well fenced, unless they have been flattened by snow, but, in either case, the wintering of the red deer has been denied them by the improvements devised by man. There is no sadder sight than what I saw only 10 days ago. The red deer had got down into a glen and had gone in front of a car. They could not get back to the hill and, in the headlights of a car, those deer might be driven a matter of 10 or 15 miles, without breaking out. This happened in the Forest of Strath Conon, which is a 60,000-acre forest and they almost got down to Dingwall before they could jump out and find access to an arable field. They were then in immediate trouble, because it was not their intention to go there. This is something of which ecologists are well aware.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, because he has presented this Bill in a very fair way. He has not taken sides about it, although his numbers may be at fault. I was astonished to hear that the deer have increased so vastly in recent years. That is certainly not so with deer in the Highlands. But

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there are too many deer as far south as Angus, where they are sheep ground deer, and are competing for sheep ground feed. In the Highlands, the deer population is kept under far better control, but, at the same time, it lacks the facilities. What is certainly true is that there will be a great many fewer deer this year, if we have a late spring. In the bad weather of 1947 and 1963, all the old stags and a lot of the yearlings died, and the hinds had no milk and left their calves. This can be expected in the spring, if we have a bad one this year, particularly on ground where the deer truly belong. So we must look at this from two different points of view, whether we want to kill them down, or let them live in good shape where they are entitled to spend their lives.
I shall not embroider anything that other speakers have said, except that I should like to add this on Clause 7, which deals with poaching. I am entirely opposed to firing rifles or shotguns at night. You do not succeed very often. The stags would be up the hill at night, but the hinds or the nomadic deer are apt to bunch at night. There are horrible stories about poachers firing off a shotgun, blinding two or three animals and not picking up one of them. The whole idea of shooting at night tends to lead to further poaching and depredation of deer stock. When people who are in the poaching business find a stag in very poor condition, which is quite unfit to eat and is just a bag of bones, but which can still be off-loaded somehow, it is surely an unforgivable crime to shoot such a deer at night with a shotgun. It inflicts enormous cruelty on animals sprinkled through the herd—not just the one that is fired at, but the one beyond—and blinding is common practice. So I urge the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, when he takes his excellent Bill a stage further, to make poaching at night a much worse offence than poaching in the daytime.
That is the only contribution that I make to this debate, that poaching at night should be doubly fined. That should deter the kind of poaching which, through my experience covering 50 years in this House, means that sheep are shot, on the roads if there is no worth-while target in the form of a stag or a hind. The A9, from Perth to Inverness, is about 100 miles of hill country and sheep are killed all the time by poachers on the road, on the excuse that they are going out to look for a stag with somebody's permission to do so, which is quite untrue in the first instance.
5 p.m.
Lord Burton: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Glenarthur may be surprised to hear that I welcome his hopes for this Bill. However, I sadly regret that his Bill will not achieve many of the objects to which he aspires. Had I not studied the Bill but had heard only his excellent speech, I should not be standing here today. However, having carefully studied the Bill, I regret to have to say that there are a number of points in it to which we shall have to return at a later stage. If my speech is a little disjointed it is because I have tried to delete large sections of what I have written down on this heap of paper, since my noble friend Lord Dulverton, who is sitting behind me, has made many excellent points. I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will not only listen to but will act upon what my noble friend Lord Dulverton has said.
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I was very interested to hear what the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, had to say regarding the introduction of roe deer to the Red Deer Commission remit. We must consider whether or not there is still to be a Red Deer Commission or whether we are simply going to have a Deer Commission. Over the years, the Red Deer Commission has done a remarkable job. As my noble friend Lord Glenarthur said, it is remarkable how controversy has disappeared. But the commission was not constituted for other deer. The commission would be the first to admit this. They are the red deer experts. Although some of the members and staff of the commission have experience of other deer, this is not enough.
A working party covering most of the different interests affected by deer, to which my noble friend Lord Dulverton referred, was set up under Sir John Gilmour and considered this legislation. They agreed, as did your Lordships' scientific committee, that sika should be under the Red Deer Commission remit as, regrettably, sika are crossed with red deer. Sika have spread throughout the Highlands in recent years. They have extended their territory quite considerably and it is undesirable that they should cross breed. They have done this in Ireland. The result has been that the Irish deer are now very inferioir to what they used to be. The red deer-sika cross is not a good animal.
Furthermore, at least one well-known poacher has excaped justice because it was represented that the prosecution could not show that the animal concerned was a pure bred red deer. This poacher had a clever lawyer. I am afraid he was a member of the Deer Society. He said that it might be a red deer-sika cross; could the prosecution decide otherwise? Of course they could not, and the case had to be dropped.
As the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has said, the description of "sika" in the Bill is not correct. There are 13 different sub-species of cervus nippon—and nippon nippon is only one of the 13. Furthermore—this is a slightly doubtful point—the Japanese for "deer" is "ska", and "sika" is probably derived from that. Therefore to put "sika deer" into the Bill is to refer to "deer deer". So we ought to refer to plain "sika". This bears out my argument that the Red Deer Commission should not deal with other species but should confine themselves to red deer.
The Bill refers not only to sika but to all these other deer "as may be specified". This is a very different matter. Although there may be about 3,000 sika in Scotland—I do not think anybody really knows how many there are—to include roe deer and fallow deer as well would double, if not treble, the number of animals for which the commission would have responsibility. The Red Deer Commission informed our working party that with their existing staff they could not deal with roe deer. Thus, the working party recommended that they should deal only with red deer, sika, and the sika crosses. The Red Deer Commission should not have foisted upon them the duties of a Deer Commission.
Apart from anything else, the commission are already clearly extended by the amount of work which they have to do. They are well behind with the counts which they have to make of the number of red deer. I believe they are two years behind. Therefore it must be wrong for the Explanatory Memorandum to

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say that the effect on public service manpower would be minimal. The commission would undoubtedly require extra staff. Furthermore, I gather that the commission did not ask for these extra powers, which have been written into the Bill only as a result of pressure from forestry interests, mainly in the south.
In view of what has already been said and of what is already well known to many of us, it is clear that some of these forestry interests have displayed over the years an abysmal and even a wilful ignorance of deer management. Therefore, it is up to them to put their own house in order. It is not up to us to legislate to make it easier for them to interfere with deer management. Therefore, it seems to me that any reference to species other than "red" or "sika" should be deleted from the Bill. If they are not deleted, then serious consideration must be given to changing the Red Deer Commission to a Deer Commission. I cannot see how one can have it both ways.
Clause 6 gives power to the Secretary of State to make an order regulating firearms. Such a regulation is very badly required, as many noble Lords have already said. Last June, near the Bridge of Earn, a poacher fired five shots from a 22 rifle at a stag and left it wounded. It should have been possible to penalise him severely for using an unsatisfactory weapon but it was not possible to bring such a charge against him. Therefore it is important, as my noble friend Lord Dulverton has already said, to secure a firm assurance from the Government that they will introduce an order relating not only to firearms but also to other equipment associated therewith.
As the English Bill is worded, it probably does not include sights. There are now very sophisticated sights. This means that you can shoot at night without a light. There is a feeling that if a plain order is written into the Bill it will be insufficient. An ordinary order can be made and Members of Parliament need not know that it is in force. We ought to write into the Bill that it should be an affirmative order, not just a plain order.
May I now move to the vexed question of control. Clause 8 as at present drafted could be said to be a poacher's charter. Occupiers would have more power to kill deer than they have at the moment to kill rabbits at night under the Ground Game Act. Clearly, nobody wants there to be damage to forestry, but at present there is too much unnecessary killing out of season. If one consults the annual report of the Red Deer Commission for 1980, which is the latest of their reports, and not untypical, one finds that nearly 3,500 stags and nearly 900 hinds were killed out of season. This was nearly double the number of out of season animals which estate owners knew about and indicates that poaching was rife. It also indicates that many of these animals may have been killed by occupiers, unbeknown to the owners.
However, what is of real concern is that nearly 20 per cent. of all the stags killed in Scotland were shot out of season. It is shocking that one-fifth of all the stags killed should be killed out of season. Apart from anything else, it means that there is a serious loss of revenue to an already economically depressed area. On 20 per cent. of all the stags unlawfully killed, there will be no rent or rates, and a large number of
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inferior carcases will be on offer, thus causing damage to our quite considerable export trade of venison.
So far as roe deer are concerned, there seems to be little or no attempt by the forestry interests to abide by the seasons, as practically all roe deer are shot upon what is currently termed "enclosed land". It is on the enclosed land, to which my noble friend sitting behind me referred, where much of the trouble lies. It is deeply to be regretted that the Bill makes no attempt to try to define "enclosed land". I know that it is difficult, but I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of man to find a suitable definition for enclosed land.
Nor for that matter is pasture defined, either. This is another loose phrase in the Bill. All land in Scotland is enclosed sooner or later and, if no definition can be found, we will have to look at the problem in another light. I suggest here that there should be no night shooting nor out-of-season shooting until it has been shown that a reasonable attempt has been made to exclude the deer by other means. I have kept the deer out this winter (after all, it has been a hard enough winter) by putting in a field a flashing light of the kind that is used on the roads. This was very effective for a short time. There are other means. At the present time there are deliberate attempts to attract deer on to allegedly enclosed ground, purely for the profit motive of selling their carcases and not for protecting crops.
At a recent meeting we heard of a Forestry Commission plantation in Glenorchy which had been fenced around at great expense, but a main road ran through it and there was neither gate nor cattle grid on the road. What a waste of money, to put an enormous fence around it and then leave the road open so that the deer could walk in. The deer did walk in and they did not return. It became a deer trap. What is more, it was seriously depleting the deer stocks in the neighbouring valleys. And, presumably, when the deer were trapped in it they did some damage as well. I know of another case where deer were deliberately attracted into a field of rape which was largely fenced. The gaps in the fence were quietly closed during the night and a very large number of deer were killed. I cannot prove this, but I am told that no less than three lorry loads of deer went away from that place that day.
In recent years about 100 acres of ground changed hands and they were fenced off near a well-known deer forest, and in this forest they were feeding the deer in the winter very close to this area. This had a fence around it, and not adequate fence but just wire, and the deer were going through it to join the feeding deer, who were half tame. During February, when they were at their poorest, they were getting killed even though they were doing no damage. They were going on so-called enclosed land and there was nothing to stop that man killing them. This must be stopped. It is really not good enough that it is now legal to string a few pieces of wire around a piece of ground and then murder the deer in the winter. How many Forestry Commission plantations have deer jumps on their fences? Very few of them, I would suggest. I think the answer will be found that it is the profit motive for killing the deer which is too tempting, and the venison revenue too great.
At one of our joint working party meetings, a

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forestry company representative stated, "We have no poaching problems because we shoot all the deer ourselves." That is the attitude we have. Last year the Forestry Commission killed nearly 13,000 roe and 5,000 red deer in Scotland. This is a terrible indictment, because surely on Forestry Commission ground one is not supposed to have any deer and to keep them out, but one-seventh of all the deer in Scotland to be killed in plantings, in areas where they should not be, is something we must try to put right. We wonder how many more may have been killed by forestry companies. This does, of course, produce a very substantial revenue for the commission of, I believe, well over £½ million. It is appreciated that Scottish forestry is not economic and that the commission is not flush with money, but should not those who develop land and change its use have some responsibility for ensuring they have proper fences? At the moment it is up to the agricultural owner or the person with the stock to fence that stock, but I believe we ought to look to see whether there should be some change in this respect.
The winter killing is having a very serious effect upon the economy of the glens. The livelihood of many of the inhabitants of the remoter areas depends on what rents and venison sales can be secured. If the men employed in these areas have to leave through the destruction of their livelihood, it is a real social disaster. There will be no one to look after the land; there will be no one to man the local mountain rescue squads, foxes will proliferate, heather will remain unburnt, and even more poaching will occur.
Throughout the Bill, permission to kill is given if "damage" has occurred. But what is "damage"? Is it just a few blades of grass eaten? This shortcoming has been recognised in England, and the wording of the English Act is far superior. In this Bill the wording in each case should be
"substantial damage has occurred and to prevent further substantial damage".
This could well curb indiscriminate and illegal killing taking place.
The noble Lord, Lord Lovat, has referred to the position of the owner as far as the making of returns is concerned. The owner must be kept informed, not only on the question of returns. How can he be expected to manage his deer if he does not know what is happening to them on his own ground; if other people have been allowed to kill deer without his knowledge? How is he and his employees expected to go running around at night because there has been a shot or lights seen, only to find it was a tenant farmer entitled to do so because of our legislation? The point has already been made that the police should be notified, but I believe that the owner should be notified too.
I now turn to the vexed question of shooting. Many of your Lordships feel very strongly that there should be no night shooting at all. These views would be entirely in line with European thinking, and, my good-ness, those of us who sat through the Countryside and Wildlife Bill will remember how the Berne Convention was rammed down our throats by the Front Bench. Why should we now turn around and say that we will not do what is being done in Europe?
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We have to do it for other forms of wildlife. Things are different in Scotland, we are told; yes, indeed, they are. We are shamefully less enlightened in these matters than our European neighbours and even our English neighbours. Education is badly required. The deer are no different and there is very little difference in the environment. It may be said that some of the woods are bigger, but that is not a strong argument. If the Highlands can manage their roc deer, why not the south of Scotland? If most of Scotland can manage their red deer, why not the South-West of Scotland? It is a change of deer management that is required and not a change in deer law. I have for long seen wildlife mismanagement by the Forestry Commission. There should be a wildlife management hierarchy within the commission. At the moment we have excellent rangers, but they have no scope for promotion within their own field; they have to go out selling timber or doing something quite outside the wildlife tree. They should be given a chance to advance up the wildlife tree in which they have such expertise.
Again, one cannot accomplish wildlife management on a fixed, 40-hour week. One must have shift working because it is no use starting work at 8 o'clock in the morning and finishing at five o'clock, but I gather that is the position in the Forestry Commission at the moment. I will only reiterate what has been said by my noble friend Lord Dulverton. He himself is an expert and has wide practical experience of forestry and deer. I do so hope that the Government will follow his advice. The Forestry Commission have put out official letters expressing their concern lest red deer should spread into south-east Scotland and Northern England in such numbers as they are in South-West Scotland. But if the deer in South-West Scotland are to be submitted to 24-hour harassment—I believe it is part of the idea that light should he used and they are already harassed during the hours of daylight—what better way to scatter them? This is exactly how the deer will move into the North of England and South-East Scotland, if they get chased out of South-West Scotland all the time.
The illusion seems to have grown out of this Bill that it will give the RDC control over night shooting. This is an illusion. It is only in very special cases that the RDC will have control. The rights given by the Agricultural (Scotland) Act 1948 seem to be sacrosanct. I cannot see why they should be sacrosanct. It is a 33-year-old Act. Surely we must have learned something in those 33 years. My noble friend Lord Lovat referred to blinding stags at night. There have been two occasions when I have had to shoot blinded stags. On one occasion I was asked to get my rifle quick because there was a stag staggering about in the road. I went out and shot this poor creature. All his legs had been cut and he had been shot in the eyes. Surely we must stop this sort of thing? Twice I have had to do that and it is not a nice thing to have to do.
There is one point the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, brought up, and I congratulate my noble friend Lord Dulverton. They both thought that sika should be shot at night. I agree that red deer should, but why should sika be included with the red deer. They are not animals wandering about a lot; they are fairly local, like the roedeer in their territory. You find them in

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much the same places day after day. There is no reason why for this purpose they should be lumped in with red deer.
We must all welcome the increased penalties, but the sheriffs are not even imposing the existing penalties. I do not know if anything can be done to prevail upon the sheriffs to impose more strict penalties. There was a poacher who had five shots with a .22, and he was fined £10 for having a rifle without a certificate, £5 for shooting out of season and £5 for shooting a stag without permission, a total of £20 for shooting an animal worth over £100. In another case, a gang caught for the third time were given a £25 fine. So far as I know, they have still got their weapons. What sort of deterrent are these penalties? Why must the penalties south of the Border be sensible and those north of the Border left far behind?
Again, there is concern over the existing powers for apprehending poachers. We have a very keen legal mind on the Front Bench, and I hope that he will look at this. My noble friend says that he hopes the Bill will improve the poaching situation. I hope he is right, but I hae m' doots!
Finally, I wonder if it has been considered that many of the powers given to the occupier in this Bill are strong disincentives to any owner of deer ground to enter into an agricultural tenancy. With the acknowledged need for more land to be let in Scotland, it seems a great pity that we should impose unnecessary deterrents in this Bill, and where possible I think we should try to alleviate the problem. Indeed, in many ways I fear it is an unsatisfactory Bill, but I have great admiration for my noble friend for having taken on the challenge of trying to improve our Scottish deer legislation. I believe he knows that the Bill has many shortcomings. On the other hand, it has the bare bones upon which we may well be able to hang some better legislation as it passes through this House. Indeed, it is vital that we try to do so, as we may not get any further legislation on this matter for some time.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, would he not agree that in no civilised country in the world is it legal to shoot deer at night?
Lord Burton: My Lords, I think it depends whether or not you call Ireland civilised.
5.23 p.m.
Lord Chelwood: My Lords, it was good of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, to be kind enough to swap places with me in the list. I have to apologise to your Lordships that, unfortunately, for inescapable reasons I cannot be here for the whole of the Second Reading debate. My Lords, unfortunately, my noble friend Lord Arbuthnott, who is also my colleague on the Nature Conservancy Council, and whose knowledge of deer is recognised in Scotland as here, and is certainly much greater than mine is, is unable to be present today because of a minor ailment. He has asked me to raise two points on his behalf based on his experience as chairman of the Red Deer Commission from 1969 to 1975. But first, may I say that
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this initiative by the Government, enabling my noble friend Lord Glenarthur to introduce this Bill—and he did it very well—to improve the management of deer, is most welcome.
Deer are, of course, an important part of the fauna of Scotland; they have a considerable impact upon the natural and semi-natural habitats, and so their management is very much a conservation matter. It is very hard indeed to strike the right balance; the obvious example is the difficulty of striking a balance between the right amount of culling and the need for natural regeneration in some areas, or for that matter to protect new planting of trees. My noble friend's first point is that it is, therefore, strange to see that Clause 1 of the Bill seeks to delete the words "in the interests of conservation", thus erasing the only mention of "conservation" in the relevant part of the 1959 Act. He does not understand why this should be the case, and neither do I. That Act purports to deal first and foremost with the conservation of red deer.
This may be the result of a common misapprehension, which is that conservation of wildlife merely involves the prevention of the extinction of species, and since nobody doubts that deer are numerous, they are not therefore in need of conservation. This is a very long way from the truth, as I am sure everyone would agree. Perhaps it needs to be said that wildlife conservation is, above all, the proper management of populations of wild species, and it is with just such management that this Bill is concerned. Surely it would therefore be entirely appropriate, indeed, may I say, essential, if instead of deleting "conservation" from the Act the Red Deer Commission were given powers to advise landowners upon the conservation, management and control of deer.
Secondly, and this arises under Clause 3, my noble friend feels—and again I share his view—that several loopholes have been found in the 1959 Act which have reduced the powers of the Red Deer Commission to deal with marauding deer on garden ground, pasture and moorland. Nevertheless, could not a different form of words be found to deal with this problem than those in Clause 3 of the Bill? These words equate competition between deer and farm animals for food with injury to farm animals by deer. This is an uncomfortable use of English, as I see it, and ignores the complexities of assessing the extent to which the diets of farm animals resemble those of deer, seeming to imply that their diets arc identical, which of course is not the case. The appearance of these words on the statute book would increase the likelihood of deer being regarded only as a pest, which they sometimes are, instead of as a very valuable wildlife resource which should be managed as such with the greatest of care.
These are the two points my noble friend asked me to raise. I will greatly appreciate it, though sadly I cannot be here, if my noble friend who moved the Second Reading, and perhaps even my noble friend Lord Mansfield as well, feel able to comment upon them.
I have one or two very brief points of my own which I would like to mention. First, with regard to licensing to deal in venison, I strongly support Clause 7, and particularly the strengthening of penalties and the increased powers of search, including by the

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police. That clause should have a powerful effect on blocking up easy outlets for poachers, something which it is impossible to do completely. Obviously this is the Government's view, and it needs no confirmation. Why, then, cannot the experience gained be just as easily applied to the licensing of fishmongers who deal in salmon and sea trout, following the pattern of Northern Ireland legislation and the excellent precedent set here? This is not the time to debate this issue, which is one in which my noble friend Lord Mansfield has taken a close interest. Such a licensing system, perhaps combined with the system of tagging used so successfully in New Brunswick in Canada, would be extremely helpful in dealing with the poaching of salmon, which is now conducted on a frightening scale; small wonder, with Scotch smoked salmon costing £11 per pound today.
The Secretary of State would obviously not use his powers under Clause 6 to prohibit the use of shotguns for shooting deer, though the less they are used the better, I think we must all be agreed, since so many animals only get wounded and die a lingering and painful death. The rifle is obviously the right weapon. So this thought occurs to me: might it not be sensible to make it illegal to sell a deer or offer a dead deer for sale which has been killed with a shotgun? It is easy enough to tell. That is the weapon most commonly used by poachers. That is only a thought and I have not thought it through very carefully, but I think it worthy of consideration. I would like, under this same heading, to say that I fully share the serious doubts that have been expressed about night shooting. It is undiscriminating, it is cruel, inefficient and can sometimes be very dangerous. At the very least it should be under the strictest possible control. For myself, I would like to ban it absolutely, except in the rarest cases where there is an unanswerable need for it.
Finally, I would make a general point, which arises out of an interruption by my noble friend Lord Ingle-wood to which Lord Glenarthur replied, about the difference in the legislation in Scotland and in England and Wales concerning the conservation and control of deer. It was quite clear from the reply, and indeed we probably already knew, that there are wide differences, although perhaps this Bill narrows them in certain respects. Some of the differences are very wide indeed. We also know that the deer know no boundaries. I think it is perfectly true that where I live in East Sussex, the deer we have on Ashdown Forest, in much larger numbers than many people realise, are just as much in need of conservation and control as are deer in Scotland. It seems to me most unfortunate that, year in year out, we legislate separately on such matters for England, Scotland and Wales. It leads to quite unnecessary complications. Nothing can be done about that now in this Bill, but one would hope that it would be possible in future to co-ordinate legislation in this field for the whole of the United Kingdom.
I apologise again for the fact that I cannot be here for the whole of the Second Reading debate. I hope I am forgiven and I very much hope that my noble friend Lord Mansfield will, nonetheless, be able to comment on the points that I have raised, particularly those that I have raised on behalf of my noble friend Lord Arbuthnott.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Glenkinglas: My Lords, it seems to be the general pattern this afternoon not only to declare an interest but to declare any number of any other relevant or irrelevant matters which happen to occur to noble Lords at the time. I only declare that I was mainly responsible with the Nature Conservancy Council, the NFU and others at the time, for drawing up the details for the 1959 Act many years before it came in, and then found myself in the rather curious position of having to help it through its passage in the House of Commons a little later. So I think I can say that I have at least some knowledge of the difficulties of what my noble friend Lord Glenarthur has so bravely taken on.
Of course, there have been changes. Perhaps the most significant to me, looking back, has been the change in the attitude of people towards deer. When I first started to deal with this issue one could tell very easily the difference between the Sheriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood. Now they have become so much closer together that they are often almost indistinguishable.
The second change, of course, has been the growth, particularly in the south-west of Scotland, of the very large forests. Noble Lords have referred to very bad management and have said that they ought to have been fenced. But that proposal is much too late. The deer were not there when the forests were planted, but they are there now and if the forests are fenced now they will almost certainly be damaged much more seriously. The next change, partly connected with that one, has been the enormous increase of roe deer not only in the south-west but in the Highlands too.
All those changes have meant that the Red Deer Commission has obviously got to take some cognisance of what is happening. If we are to insist that the Red Deer Commission cannot even give advice—which is what the relevant section in this Bill says it is to do—on the subject of red deer or other deer as specified by the Secretary of State, then we shall have to have another deer commission somewhere to do just that. So we must accept that there are changes and we must move with them.
I share the views of several noble Lords that it is unlikely that the Red Deer Commission, as at present set up, will be capable of handling all the problems which roe deer are likely to create across the length and breadth of Scotland, let alone across the borders. This is a problem which we can discuss, perhaps, more fully in Committee. However, I should like to concentrate on two or three subjects, all of which have been covered, and therefore I hope that I can deal with them extremely quickly.
The first matter is poaching, which again has been one of the big changes. In my youth and in my early activities with deer Bills, poaching was a comparatively small offence, mostly a "one for the pot" type of operation, because the value of a deer carcase before the war was 15 shillings and after the war it was £2 or £3. Today it ranges from £80, to £100, to £120 and some of the very big deer in the forest areas can fetch even more than that.
The increase in the number of poachers is directly connected with the value of the booty that they can get. I believe that it is not easy to stop poaching without having very severe penalties; that is the only

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way that one can reasonably be certain that the punishment fits the crime. It is very difficult, in a great deal of the country in which poaching takes place, to catch the people who do it. It is almost certain that if you do catch them they will have had three or four days without having been caught, and no way are they going to be caught at all regularly. The police are very scattered in these areas and it is not altogether a safe operation for ordinary people to try to interfere in. You are dealing with people armed, often with high velocity rifles, who have no particular inhibitions against firing them, if not at you, then sufficiently near you to make it a frightening experience. So I believe that the main method of poaching control will be through the severity of the penalties for the offences.
Venison dealers provide a very excellent method of controlling poaching—I quite see that point. But I believe that the Red Deer Commission should have some say in the number of venison dealers who should be licensed because if there are a great many of them it will make it much harder for the police to keep proper control. I think that when it comes to whether or not people are fit to have a licence, the police ought to be consulted because in certain areas one is a lot further away from the Red Deer Commission than others. My only immediate point on penalties is that, as I read the Bill as at present drafted, if a venison dealer buys venison illegally he is liable to a fine of only £200, whereas the person who has shot it is liable to a fine of £500. I think that the penalties should be at least equal. There should be a fine of £500 for acquiring it and for selling it because it is at that end that I believe you will control poaching.
I am 100 per cent. against night shooting. I do not believe that it is effective. In my view, it is terrifyingly dangerous. If it has to be done at all it must be done, in my view, with the police present controlling what is actually happening, because again the idea of people driving along Highland roads blazing-off with rifles of this velocity and killing power is to me an entirely wrong concept.
Finally, I am sorry that we have not been able in this Bill to contemplate the problems of deer farming. I am sure that they will come up and that we may have to have a small Bill to deal with them, in a few years time when we know more about the subject. But in my view this Bill is a very great improvement on the present situation, not unnaturally because there have been the changes to which I have referred in my speech. I hope that, although there are endless Committee points which quite clearly could be argued for ever, we shall give the Bill a Second Reading and get the Committee stage through quickly because we really need the type of action that this Bill advocates.
5.38 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I should like to congratulate and thank my noble friend Lord Glenarthur for carrying out a necessary and very useful task—that is to say, revising the deer legislation for Scotland. He gave us a very clear presentation in his speech today of what is required. Since the Red Deer Act 1959—which is the basic Scottish legislation—
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was passed, it has fallen to private Members, or private Peers in this place, to amend and try to keep up to date the legislation. The House will have more reasons for gratitude to my noble friend in a few weeks' time because he will then have had to cope with the Committee and later stages and the work and burden of considering amendments and where to make changes to the Bill. Indeed, he will have been carrying out the piloting through of this Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, referred to me in the context of the Sale of Venison Act 1968. I, indeed, sponsored that Act when it was a Private Member's Bill in the other place. It went through and became law. But I think I must say to him that I do not regard that as the parent Act. He spoke of me as being responsible for the parentage of the legislation. I regard the 1959 Act, which was introduced by a Government, as the parent Act, and I am glad to see that this Bill incorporates the new version of my Sale of Venison Act in the 1959 Act.
The 1959 Act—the parent Act—was passed before I entered Parliament and I cannot claim to have had anything to do with that. As the sponsor of the 1968 Act in another place, I asked my noble friend the Duke of Atholl to sponsor that Bill when it then came to your Lordships' House. I also sponsored another Private Member's Scottish Deer Bill earlier in the 1960s. The noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, was Secretary of State at that time and I acknowledge the help which the Scottish Office gave in assisting with the drafting and in other ways with the passage of those Bills.
I agree that the provisions of the deer legislation now need to be brought up to date and considerably tightened. As a sponsor in the other place of two earlier Bills which became Acts, the principal point which I should like to make in this debate is that I fully accept the need for revision now. It may help if I remind your Lordships of the situation in those days and explain the background to the earlier legislation.
When I piloted the Sale of Venison (Scotland) Act 1968 through the other place I had to convince Members of the Commons that any degree of control of venison dealers was necessary at all. This was something new. The formula of registration and the contents of that Act were thought to be suitable and acceptable at that time. It was a tentative step in that direction. I think that had that Act tried to go much further at that stage, it would have run into opposition and doubts. It is not possible for a Private Member's Bill in another place—unless the Member has been fortunate enough to be in the first six or eight of the annual ballot for Private Members' Bills—to go through if it is controversial: so, of course, it was necessary to try to get general agreement upon what was included in that measure.
I now believe that that Act needs to be brought up to date and strengthened in the way in which my noble friend suggests. For example, in 1968 the abuses were not on the scale published in an article in the Scotsman, which was read by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, earlier this afternoon. We heard about these new, modern vehicles specially adapted for hill and moorland country, and about gang activity, which must shock everybody who reads about it or hears of it. I do not

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think that it was happening on that scale in the 1960s, though we were concerned about this kind of activity. If it was, we did not know about it. That is the background to the Acts in the 1960s which brought up to date the parent Act of 1959.
Another point is that the value of the venison and, therefore, the rewards for illegal killing were not as great in those days as they are now. Therefore, I hope that my noble friend Lord Glenarthur will look at suggestions for tightening even further Clause 7, some of which have been made today. He will already be well aware—if only from this debate—that there are controversies and argument ahead. But I wish him well.
I hope that the Government will ensure that time is available in the Commons, besides being available in the Second Scottish Standing Committee, which normally takes the Committee stages of Private Members' Bills. I hope it will be possible for my noble friend Lord Mansfield to tell us something of this today because, clearly, if we are to work hard on a measure here, we would want to have some idea (even though, of course, the other place has its own control over everything that it does) as to procedure in order to make sure of this Bill having some prospect, when it leaves here, of being granted time in the Commons.
Of course, if we manage to resolve all the contentious matters, the Bill, as amended, or as it is, may go through without any further points being raised in another place. But I doubt that. I am sure that points will be raised because this is a matter—as is this whole subject—which arouses the comments of a whole range of interests. So that is unlikely. But we must do our best to help my noble friend Lord Glenarthur achieve the most suitable measure to pass to another place.
5.46 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, my experience on the Wildlife and Countryside Act led me to believe that in all debates on wildlife and animal welfare in Scotland it was desirable to have the civilising influence of the English brought to bear.
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, they brought the deer.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: My Lords, when one considers the merciless attitude of noble Lords from Scotland towards that majestic bird, the great black-backed gull, and their unyielding attitude on the use of the snare against the fox, one wonders whether the standards that are adopted by noble Lords in Scotland are in need of some civilising influence. I give notice that that will be my role in the further stages of the Bill.
I take the points made by noble Lords about the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, very much to heart. I think that he is a courageous, comparatively new Member of your Lordships' House to embark on this enterprise. As the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, said a moment ago, congratulations now may turn to sympathy later on, because a good deal of homework will have to be done on this Bill and I am quite sure that a good deal of work will have to be done in the Committee stage.
I should like to support my noble friend Lord
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Northfield in nearly everything that he said. I certainly take him as my guide on many matters relating to this Bill. One point that he mentioned, and which I endorse, concerns the structure of the Bill. We do not seem to have got our legislative processes right even yet. It is a great inconvenience to pick up a Bill and find that you cannot follow it without having a book in your hand. It seems to me that there are better ways of amending legislation and furthering the progress of new legislation than by introducing amending Bills which legislate by reference in a most inconvenient way but which are then left, after a repetition of that process on the principal Act, to a consolidating measure later on. I thought that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, had suggested some improvements in this direction, but I do not seem to have noticed them. However, I leave that point and deal with the status of the Bill.
I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, has had plenty of encouragement from ministerial circles to proceed with this Bill. I think that he would be embarking on a futile exercise if he introduced the Bill without some confidence that he would get the goodwill of the Government. If that is so, if the Government are to give their blessing to a Bill of this kind, would it not be more convenient if the Minister of State intervened earlier in the debate and did not leave the expression of the Government's attitude towards the Bill to the end? It seems to me that it would facilitate debate if we knew about half way through where the Government stood. It saves us from going on in a fool's paradise, or from saying things which would become unnecessary if we knew the Government's attitude. I leave that point to the consideration of your Lordships.
Next I come to the context of the Bill. We have to bear in mind what the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, said about the existence of the Red Deer Commission. That has to be borne in mind when we are making comparisons between the English law and the Scottish law. Nevertheless, the basic conditions of legislation in both countries should come as close together as possible. It seems to me that there are two main issues in this Bill. One is to check the abuses of poaching, to increase the penalties for breach of the law, and the second is deer farming, although deer farming is not really dealt with under this Bill.
On the ethical question of the relationship between man and the animal kingdom, what we are now confronted with, not only in this but in many other fields of animal life and human activity, is the growth of the commercialisation and exploitation of the animal kingdom on a scale never previously known, and under conditions which, to make the enterprises commercially viable or more profitable, bring in their train considerable hardship and misery, if not downright cruelty. On the poaching side of this activity, obviously normal standards of animal welfare are disregarded in the interests of those who are doing the thieving and want to get away with it. Mutilation of animals and cruelty in transit, and other horrors connected with this business, will be condemned on all sides. The conditions for enforcement and the penalties for conviction should be as stringent as we can make them.
It is a paradox in human affairs that animals that children are taught to love are the ones subjected to the most ruthless exploitation for commercial gain,

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and indeed for the supply of services to meet the demand of the public. It is difficult to avoid double standards in these matters. There seems to be one standard for children and another for grown-ups. For children, the sentimental, and for grown-ups the reality. It is difficult for young people to move out of the age of sentimentality towards animals and to find that the grown-ups are behaving towards them in a manner which would have distressed them had they known about it in earlier life.
These are just philosophical reflections on some of the issues in this Bill. I shall not pursue them, because we have business to do, and I assume that we are talking business on this Bill and not just going through a Private Member's Bill exercise which will run into the sand through lack of time somewhere else. Therefore, I assume that we are dealing with a Bill which represents a serious attempt to improve and amend the 1959 Act. In those circumstances, I must suppose that this is the answer to the consultative document issued by the Scottish Department in April of last year, which asked for comments on various matters raised in it by the end of June. If so, then I think that the Bill will have to stand comparison in Committee with the headings which were under discussion in this document as well as the provisions of the English Deer Act 1980. I think that it will be quite valid to make those two comparisons on the conditions of this Bill.
My own agenda for the further stages of the Bill will surely cover shooting out of season. That is an obvious point because it occupies a considerable part of the Bill. Second will be firearms and methods of taking deer. I sincerely hope that we are going to try to deal with taking deer from helicopters and from moving vehicles—we had all this debate in the Wildlife and Countryside Bill—and the use of firearms; the kind of firearms.
The Bill provides in Clause 6 for the Secretary of State to make regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, suggested that the Minister should have the orders ready by the time the Bill reaches the statute book. If there are to be orders about this, and they are going to be ready so soon, one may ask why cannot we put them in the Bill? We put them in other legislation. Night shooting is obviously another question of serious importance. It is a most distasteful form of taking animals to attack them at night. I have all the recollections of the proceedings on the Ground Game Bill a year or 18 months ago.
On the question of deer farming, there may be differences of opinion as to whether the present is yet the time to deal more comprehensively with deer farming. I remind your Lordships that although deer farming has begun, the deer is not covered by the farm animal welfare legislation. It is not covered by the Slaughterhouses Act. There are other aspects of deer farming. Taking animals from the wild and bringing them into captivity for farming purposes, and not confining deer farming to animals bred in captivity. There are those aspects of the matter.
There is also what constitutes a farm. This was dealt with in the discussion document, and I do not pursue it further, but I hope it will be possible to give some attention to the question of the deer farm when we come to the later stages of the Bill. Finally, there
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is the question of transport, which raises special problems for the removal of animals like deer. There is a little agenda for the Committee stage. I hope that it will not depress the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, because he must anticipate all these items as being inevitable parts of the Committee stage to follow. I conclude by congratulating the noble Lord on introducing the Bill. I am sure that he will have more success with this complicated Bill than I am having with my two-clause Bill on pet animals. I envy him, but I congratulate him nevertheless.
5.59 p.m.
Lord Margadale: My Lords, I welcome the opportunity of saying a word or two on this Bill. As I spent most of the morning at the dentist, I am going to be rather brief. May I first apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, for having taken his Committee Room last night. We were talking on the subject of deer. It was done quite unwittingly. I was told to go to Room 4, and I did.
I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, on the way he presented this Bill fully and clearly. I hope that the Bill gets a Second Reading. From what I have heard all around this afternoon, I think it most certainly will, without much opposition. However, I feel that it will require some amendment on the Committee stage in due course. I hope it will not take quite so long as, for example, the Wildlife and Countryside Bill to produce the final answer; it would be in the best interests of the health of members of this House and possibly the Government if, as one noble Lord said, it were finished "fairly expeditiously".
Very little seems to have been said about notification and consultation both to owners of land and the police, though in the interests of safety I should have thought that was essential. In regard to night shooting, a number of noble Lords have said how much they dislike it, and I join them in that view. When I was first taught to stalk red deer, and that was over 60 years ago, it was in broad daylight. The golden rule was that if the animal was shot dead, that was that; if it was not shot dead and could possibly have been wounded, the person who fired the shot followed the animal up till and indeed after dark to get it if at all humanly possible. With night shooting it is dark when you start, so there must be a certain amount of inhumanity; the best shot in the world cannot be certain every time, and therefore I am not happy about that.
The noble Lord, Lord Burton, referred to the numbers of deer killed in forestry plantations and, if I am correct in adding up the figures, they come to just under 20,000 of all sorts, which is quite a lot. A closer look at some of the holes in the fences might prevent some of that, though I know that fencing is an expensive item.
I look on the whole Bill rather from an island point of view—the bottom island in the Inner Hebrides—and I wish to endorse what two members, one past and one present, of the Red Deer Commission have said. The job of the Red Deer Commission is done very well; there were doubts when it started, but 1 think everybody is now happy, and certainly the relationship with the island of Islay has always been a happy one.
I received a letter this morning from a man with

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legal training and training in land management, and I feel I should quote from it. He refers to certain provisions which give him considerable concern and says:
"It appears that the new wording of Section 33(3) of the 1951 Act will cut across many existing tenancy agreements and it could be possible for any tenant to shoot virtually at will. If this is so, it should be amended so that the Red Deer Commission should authorise occupiers to do this only when the owners are not doing their duty to do so".
6.4 p.m.
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I wish to refer briefly to a point I raised when my noble friend Lord Glenarthur was speaking, and that is the cross-border implications of the Bill. Not for the first time in your Lordships' House I have had to make a mild protest that those who drafted a Bill seem to think Scotland is an island, It is not. It has a land frontier at the southern end and there are a great many deer in that area which cross the boundary without let or hindrance.
It is generally a mistake when we propose amendments to the law to end up with a final solution which takes the law of the two countries, England and Scotland, further apart. It is not always easy to bring them together, because of tradition and history, but it must be a mistake to take the law on one side of the Border even further than it is now from the law on the other side of the Border. In this case it is particularly reprehensible because firearms are concerned and in the age in which we live we should be careful before doing anything to increase the number of authorised firearms in any part of this country. What is more, it seems absolute folly to authorise an increase on one side of the England-Scotland border but not on the other.
It does not need a great deal of thought to see how difficult this will make control, whether for game-keepers, stalkers. police or well-intentioned citizens, whose powers in this regard are not inconsiderable. To authorise shooting at night on one side of the border and not on the other seems to me to he an act of folly, and I will not say any more.
6.6 p m.
Lord Ross of Marnock: My Lords, it is now my turn to offer congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur. I do not know whether this is the first Bill he has tried to get through. I wish him luck. His speech merited it, and he even anticipated some of the criticism he is going to get. With a rueful smile he said it would come, but he was quite satisfied, with his reasonable attitude, that he would be able to meet it when it came. I hope he was not too despondent over the agenda put forward by my noble friend Lord Houghton. I assure the noble Lord that my noble friend speaks like that, but he does not act like that.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell, and my noble friend Lord Houghton were right to ask where the Government stood in the matter because the answer to that will considerably affect what happens in another place. We may spend a long time on the Bill—and there is obviously a wealth of knowledge of the matter, albeit on one side of the House—and we do not want to do that only to find at the end that we are frustrated by events elsewhere; the Bill must get a Second Reading in another place. If it gets that, then we have so arranged business in the other place that a Scottish
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Private Member's Bill has a far better chance of getting on to the statute book than any other Private Member's Bill coming fron this House. It might be helpful, therefore, if the Government told us exactly where they stand. As soon as I read the measure I thought, "This is a Government Bill that has been farmed out". If that was the case, they certainly got somebody to take it on who knew the subject and who had mastered the Bill.
However, I wish he had had some influence on the draftsmen. Right from the first page to the last it is very difficult to understand. One noble Lord said you needed one book in front of you and another in your hand to understand the measure, but that is not true; you need perhaps three books in front of you and another in your hand as you go through it. Clause 1, for example, really is not good enough. We could all have been spared a considerable amount of time in the Library going through the Acts of 1959, 1968 and 1980—and that was English, not Scottish at all—endeavouring to work out all the various permutations. I was quite worn out by the time I reached Clause 11, where I read:
"(1) This Act may be cited as the Deer (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 1982".
I then read:
"(2) With the exception of section11(1) of this Act"—
which is the provision I have just read—
"insofar as it refers to paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 to this Act"—
but it does not refer to anything of the kind. You have some reasonable complications, as one might call them, in the first subsection, and then you come to what is a nonsense in the next; you then have to go over it a few times to see whether you are being stupid or whether the draftsmen have forgotten they have left out a clause that was there and in consequence have forgotten to change the reference. But I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, will have the answer as to whether I am right, or whether that particular provision is nonsense, and should read "section 10(1)". We are only human and when a point is made about thanking the draftsmen for their help, we start on the basis that the Bill is right. It gives us a lot of work, and 1 hope that that kind of situation can be avoided.
I was glad that the noble Lord mentioned the Red Deer Commission, the work it had done, and the reputation it had built up. Mind you, I began to wonder about it when I heard some people talking about some of the things that are in the Bill and the implications of them. There was a suggestion, I think by the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, that what we need is deer management. I would suggest that he looks at a pamphlet produced by the Red Deer Commission. There is a copy in the Library, and he could go there after the debate is finished. The pamphlet is entitled, Deer Management. Not only is it about that, but it shows the advance that there has been, and the co-operation that there is, between the Red Deer Commission and the Forestry Commission on the one side, and deer forest owners on the other, on various matters.
think that the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, is quite right—the Forestry Commission was hopelessly wrong in ignoring deer when it first set up its large forestry operations. There are great blocks of forest—not

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just in the South of Scotland, as was suggested by, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Burton, but in the North, too—where there is no fencing at all. What has happened? The people went off the land, we brought in sheep, the profitibality of sheep declined, and so deer was the next thing, and with the growth of industrial prosperity in England it became fashionable for people to go up to Scotland, to the great deer forests, to go stalking, and then stalking became commercial as well. All that has been part of the development.
Now we push the deer out, or push them higher up. We build great forests between them and their feeding grounds. If there is fencing, they will get round it, or through it, Once they get through, they will stay there, because deer are indeed woodland animals. That has been their advantage in the past, they were there before we were. There was the old Caledonian forest. We got rid of the forest. Many of the Highland forests were cut down and used for smelting; and then there were all the other developments. We have pushed the deer around, and we, not the deer, are to blame for the dilemma they are in. They have to live.
Remember my Lords, that the 1959 Bill was intended to further the conservation and control of red deer. A feeling I have about this Bill—and I think it is shared by one or two people—is that the conservation aspect is becoming increasingly eroded, and it might well be that the forestry owners, be they the Forestry Commission or private developers in forestry, have switched the balance a little.
There are ways of dealing with the animals other than killing them. They can be controlled properly. This point has come out from what the Red Deer Commission and the Forestry Commission have said—I think it was at Fuinary. They have come to the conclusion that one way to handle the matter might be to make clearances in forests and so encourage deer to come in and feed. They would then be much easier to control and there would not be the slaughter which offends a tremendous number of people. I was impressed by what was said by, I think the chairman of the Deer Society in evidence to the Select Committee; that is certainly well worth reading.
I tend to agree with those who say, "Yes, let's look again at what is proposed in respect of both out-of-season killing and night shooting ". It is so easy to slaughter the deer in these circumstances. This might be a disadvantage of the idea about clearances. You attract the deer, switch on the spotlight, stun them with light, and then slaughter them. That is all right if it is done from the point of view of control. But the difficulty arises in that those people who benefit from the presence of the deer, whether in terms of venison for human consumption, or commercial stalking, are not the people who are at a disadvantage when damage is done. And who owns the deer anyway? Nobody. The person who owns the deer is the person who kills it, provided he kills it lawfully. So we have to balance the interests, and it is the balance that I am concerned about.
Now I turn to the question of poaching. I do not think that there is any disagreement among any of us about poaching. Where there is cash, there is
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crime, and it is a fact that as the price of venison has risen, interest in poaching has become all that much greater. I think that it was the sub-committee that pointed out, as well as the Red Deer Commission—everybody agrees—that the penalties must be increased. Proposed changes in the licensing procedure, getting away from registration, are I believe quite right. I understand that at the moment there are about 500 registered venison dealers, and 250 of them are no longer in business. So the local authorities are carrying a register that is virtually half dead; it should be kept alive.
I now come back to familiar ground because I want to ask why was this matter not included in the Civic Government Bill? Under that Bill we are licensing itinerant scrap dealers, chimney sweeps—oh no, not chimney sweeps—window cleaners, taxi drivers. We are getting all the licensing together, all to be done by the local authorities. This matter could have been in that Bill, and it would have saved the noble Lord all the trouble he will have at the Committee stage.
There is not very much leeway left for the local authorities, there is no limitation on numbers. Someone suggested—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, but certainly someone suggested it—that there might be limitation of the numbers of licensed venison dealers. I do not think that will be on. There is also the question of consulting the police. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Glenkinglas, who mentioned this—the trouble is that when people come in here they will change their names from those with which we are all familiar. I think that there is value in consultation. It is done in regard to the other licences that I have just mentioned. It is important that the police know who in their area have licences. That would be better for them in carrying out their work, because it is not going to be easy for them, the whole thing is so scattered.
On a previous occasion in Scotland we made a decision about evidence regarding prosecution for poaching salmon; I think it was in 1951. Then in 1959 we decided that a person can be prosecuted, and the Crown Office would allow the prosecution to go forward, on the evidence of one witness. Not only that; there is also the question of whether vehicles are being used, these "cats" I think they are called. We have heard about them in another Bill. Boats are used, too. I was fascinated by the fact that a discrepancy regarding the number of boats—I think it was in Rum—could not be understood. Then it was realised that that was at a time when the price of venison was at its highest, and a number of boats had been seen around the place. We must not underestimate the difficulty of catching the culprits; nor must we underestimate the penalty, because all their engines, boats, cars and everything else can be confiscated. But I agree that the penalties must go up. The change in the licensing system will of course give a greater measure of control in respect of the outlet, and the penalties have been improved.
On firearms, that aspect has to be dealt with, of course. I am perfectly sure the noble Lord will see to that himself. Let him stand no nonsense from the Scottish Office. Tell them that the House insists upon it. We have the actual firearms listed, and the ballistic references as well, in a schedule, and he can take power

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to add to them or take off from them, but we must see this before the Bill goes through.
On the whole, I am pleased with the Bill. There are one or two things that I do not like about it; but the last legislation was passed in 1959 and it is now 1982. I do not know why the Scottish Office have not produced their own Bill, but, anyway, the noble Lord has rescued them with this one, to make a start. It is only a start, because we have this document from them which was sent out last year, I think it was, called Deer Legislation in Scotland. The whole question of farming has not been dealt with; and, although it is complicated and complex, if farming is going to spread then we shall need to deal with it and make it possible in some way to make sense out of the present position and remove some of the difficulties which rest with them.
The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, asked: Why the differences in Scotland? One of the big differences is that we probably take things a bit more seriously in Scotland. You can see the attendance here tonight on this relatively unimportant Bill. We cannot get an attendance here when we are dealing with Scottish local government. Lord Mansfield and myself are here together at midnight, and not another single Scot. I am delighted to see some of the faces; but it is because we take this business seriously, evidently.
But let the noble Lord appreciate one other thing. We have a Red Deer Commission. It is there. We want to keep our Red Deer Commission; and I hope he will listen to that. We want it to be a Red Deer Commission, and not an all-deer commission. It has enough to do. By the way, let us be a little more honest during the Committee stage. How much is this going to cost? Are we going to give this man a pension at all? I do not know whether Mr. Innes Miller wants one, or is in need of one. It may be that his work warrants it; but I am tempted to agree with what was said about this by Lord Thurso.
However, when I received the last report from the commission I saw there were six meetings and one or two other things as well. It is an important job, but not exactly onerous. But if the Government are going to give him the opportunity of a pension, is it going to be a minimal pension? Because we are told here that the effects of this are minimal. I think there is potential here, especially if you want the Red Deer Commission to take on new duties in respect of scientific research, and so on. Of course, I can now see why that is wanted. It is because we have not got the Nature Conservancy doing the kind of work that they did in Rum.
But I have been impressed with what has been done in respect of research by the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology, under the aegis of the commission. We are making headway. There is so much more that we know about it that it merits a much bigger Bill and a much fuller Bill dealing with some of the more up-to-date problems. But I congratulate the noble Lord for having courageously started off, and I hope that he looks as well and as young by the time we come to the end of it.
6.25 p.m.
The Minister of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Mansfield): My Lords, I should like to add my voice to the congratulations which have showered upon my
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noble friend Lord Glenarthur from all sides of the House—and quite rightly, too, if I may say so—first on the manner in which he presented this Bill to your Lordships this afternoon, and I think more especially for having the courage to take it on. Any debate in your Lordships' House which concerns the subject of your Lordships' House, which concerns the subject of animals or birds or fish, excites an interest and attendance almost more than anything else except the possible reform of trade union law, and feelings tend to run somewhat high. I have, of course, as always, been impressed by the depth of interest and, indeed, expertise shown by other noble Lords from all parts of the House who have taken part in the debate; and I think in some ways—in many ways, perhaps—the debate has been reasonably constructive and certainly points the way to an interesting Committee stage, which I hope will also be constructive.
The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, at one point in his remarks, asked what was the attitude of the Government to this Bill. He talked about himself as, I think, a civilising influence, although that, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. But if he was sufficiently civilised to be a Scot, I think he would know that the Bill which my noble friend has introduced had its origins in the Scottish Office. He would also know of the intense interest which I personally have taken in matters to do with deer since the general election of 1979, and indeed before it, when, in a private capacity, I pontificated (if that is the right word) upon the Bills of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield—and I see him nodding, if not in appreciation.
Having said that, besides having lots of consultations we also issued the consultative document to which reference has been made this afternoon. It has been recognised for some time, of course, that a fresh look was needed at the law relating to deer in Scotland. We therefore published the discussion paper which was widely circulated, and it drew a good deal of interesting and useful comment. There was also considerable help given by a working party, convened on the initiative of the Scottish Landowners' Federation, which was chaired (as has already been mentioned) by Sir John Gilmour. This brought together all the main interests concerned with the management and, indeed, the conservation of deer. I hope that the result of all this has been that the main interests now understand, and have at least a measure of respect for, each other's points of view. I would have hoped, at least before this afternoon, that there was a degree of consensus between them.
I am asked what the Government's attitude is likely to be towards this Bill and its future progress. I cannot of course give any undertaking on behalf of the business managers in another place, but any Private Member's Bill is a tender plant and it is apt to succumb if it reaches the other place in a state which makes it unwelcome. I therefore hope—and I do not say this as a threat—that when we debate this Bill in Committee the consensus which I have already referred to will be preserved, and that even those who feel, quite rightly and perfectly understandably, passionate about some aspects of deer management will appreciate that, as I shall illustrate, in various parts of this Bill there have been brought together divided opinions in the form of a compromise which may in the end prove the most

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satisfactory; but I shall say no more about it at this stage.
I must also mention the immense help which the Scottish Office has had from the Red Deer Commission in preparing the Bill. The commission are a thoroughly balanced and representative body, and they have taken a great deal of time and trouble to review the matters raised by the consultative document. They have given their advice to the Government; and if this is a good Bill—and I believe that it is—then it is due in no small measure to the assistance that the Commission have given to us.
I have to say that the Bill relates to two Government Bills which are at present before Parliament; not in a direct way, but rather by touching upon some common matters. The first point is contained in Clause 7, which introduces the concept of licensing for venison dealers; and, rightly, the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, said that we are already considering very comprehensive licensing provisions under the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill. Why then should we not transfer the venison dealer provisions into that Bill, where they could go in with the metal dealers and window cleaners and so on?
Precisely how the provisions of this Bill should relate to that Bill is a question of some complexity and, above all, I think that there are difficulties in relation to the schedule in the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill which lays down the procedures under which licences are obtained. Nevertheless, I take the point and I think it may be very well worthwhile examining the position afresh in the light of his remarks before this Bill and indeed, the other Bill get very much further. We are very keen to see a sensible system of licensing for venison dealers but we are not sure whether it would be right at this stage that they should go with the other trades and occupations contemplated by the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill.
The other Government measure which relates to this Bill is the Criminal Justice Bill in which the penalty provisions of the Deer (Scotland) Act 1959 are proposed to be revised on similar lines to those contained in this Bill. Should this Bill make good progress, we would intend to let the penalty provisions stand as they are here, since this is the proper place for them, and in that event we will withdraw them from the Criminal Justice Bill.
This brings me to the first point which was raised (first by intervention, and latterly by a speech) by my noble friend Lord Inglewood. He asks—and complains about it; as I think did my noble friend Lord Chelwood—whether this Bill does not make the law of Scotland and that of England somehow wider apart. I do not think that it does. In three areas, in fact, this Bill brings the law of Scotland and of England closer together; namely in the field of penalties, in the control of firearms and in the control of poaching. The Bill, in fact, brings the laws of both countries nearer to being identical. I have to say that, as far as the rights of the occupier are concerned—that is to say, night shooting and so on—there is a divergence between the two countries.
However, the conditions between the two countries are very different and I am not sure that the circumstances which are contemplated by this Bill will not
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very soon be reproduced in places in Northumberland like the Kielder Forest. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future, although I do not think that, for the purposes of this speech, I should speculate further in that direction. But basically there is little that is in common in the problems faced as far as deer control is concerned between Scotland and southern England; and I would take issue with my noble friend Lord Chelwood in his assertion that the problems are very similar.
Another matter raised concerned the order-making powers of the Secretary of State. There are two places in the Bill where power is proposed to be conferred upon the Secretary of State. First, in Clause 1, which will empower the Secretary of State to give the Red Deer Commission directions as to which species of deer it is to give its attention to and its advice upon. This was one of the matters of complaint of my noble friend Lord Burton, who in a speech of about 20 minutes had nothing good to say about the Bill at all, except a word of congratulation to my noble friend, and in it he quoted to us Latin, if not Japanese, as part of his complaint.
What this does is to give the Secretary of State in the future power to, as it were, direct the Red Deer Commission to turn its attention to other species as may become necessary in the light of future events. Of course, we arc concerned now, and will be so in the future, that the commission's resources should be put to the fullest possible use but not overstrained. I think that even now the commission has a considerable understanding of roe deer but, in any event, before he makes use of such powers the Secretary of State of the day, without any doubt, would consult the commission to find out what are their needs and how they can fulfil them before any direction was made. The alternative is to leave the commission so that they cannot have this power. It would then be necessary to have primary legislation once more—and we all know how difficult it is to have legislation of this sort because of the crowded parliamentary timetable.
The other power is in Clause 6, upon which quite a lot has been said already. The Secretary of State is empowered to make orders by statutory instrument restricting the use of types of firearm and ammunition. This is a good power. I have been asked, not least by my noble friend Lord Glenarthur, whether it would be the Secretary of State's intention to make such an order almost at the time when the Bill receives the Royal Assent. I cannot give an undertaking about that. This is a flexible power which the Secretary of State is given.
I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, that it is a much better power than writing in great, cumbersome rules and codes and dotting the i's and crossing the t's; because the Secretary of State is empowered to take the right advice, and he can act swiftly in an executive manner. I have no doubt that this is something to which we shall return in Committee, but, as at present advised, I think it is a neater and less cumbersome way of controlling the use of firearms so far as deer are concerned.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, when the whole House and many people outside are agreed that some methods are barbaric, is it not a good idea to put a provision in

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the Bill?—because we still find that Ministers are got at, even on issues like that, and they do not move as swiftly as does public opinion.
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, there is every difference between what the noble Lord says and the situation some years ago when we were debating crossbows and things like that. I agree that the use of crossbows and of lurchers should be prohibited by statute; but because of the 1959 Act we are well down that particular path already so far as Scotland is concerned. What we would be legislating for or what the Secretary of State would be legislating for in his order, is, for instance, the type of rifle to be used. That is quite different. We need primary legislation for that.
A great number of Committee points have been raised which I shall not attempt to answer. If my noble friend Lord Glenarthur feels like doing so, because it is his Bill, he is free to. There are obviously matters to which we shall return in Committee. So far as the Government are concerned, I am sure that if my noble friend wishes to accept amendments then the Government probably will be sympathetic. The noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, with his eagle eye—and I would hate to have been taught history by him in the old days—spotted the one misprint; and, of course, an amendment will he gratefully accepted from him if my noble friend does not table it himself. The Latin, I am sure, can be tidied up.
I am also sure that the point that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, made, perfectly properly—why one fine for one carcase and not more?—can easily be debated in Committee. I imagine that an amendment would be given sympathetic consideration by my noble friend. Where I am less in sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Northfield—and I have already indicated this—is over the matter of codes of practice, both so far as night shooting is concerned and the related suggestion which the noble Lord made that there should be some kind of code laid down by the Red Deer Commission when they are making authorisation.
So far as the Red Deer Commission are concerned, I am sure that when they make their authorisation they would lay down strict conditions. They are minded to do so at present over the ground to be covered and also the identity of the person who would undertake the shooting. Probably notification of the police would also be part of that authorisation.
Lord Burton: My Lords, may I ask a question? Am I not right in thinking that the vast amount of night shooting will not be controlled by the Red Deer Commission? It will still be under the old Agriculture Act.
The Earl of Mansfield: My Lords, I am coming to that That is the night shooting point. What I was trying to cover was the question of a code of practice. We shall come back to that; but I have no doubt that it can be covered by the Red Deer Commission, and that there is no need for primary legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, is very anxious, I know, to see those provisions of the Wildlife and Countryside Act on control over firearms incorporated
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into this Bill. We can have a lot of debate on that. I do not think that it would be very profitable of me to go into it now apart from saying that I myself do not think it is necessary.
The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, then complained in effect that there was no question of serious damage before an occupier can shoot in the close season. I want to come, if I may, to this whole question of night shooting. May I remind your Lordships that the present law is contained in Clauses 21 and 33 of the 1959 Act. Putting the matter quite shortly, the occupier—both as regards out of season shooting and also night shooting—has a very wide power. He does not have to prove that the marauding deer—if I may so call them—were doing anything; they merely have to be on his land. As my noble friend illustrated when he introduced this Bill, this has had one effect particularly so far as the Forestry Commission are concerned: because they are a corporate body they do not, as it were, count as an occupier for the purposes of Clause 33.
May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, that so far as know this Bill has been drafted in complete compliance with what was recommended by the committee which was chaired by my noble friend Lord Renton. This is the way of legislating by reference. I appreciate that at first blush when one picks up a copy of this Bill it is not easy but it was the way which was recommended, for a variety of reasons.
I hope that it will be agreed by the whole House that the provisions contained in subsections (4) and (4A) of Clause 8 represent a considerable compromise so far as occupiers are concerned, because for the first time it shall be lawful for the occupier to carry out night shooting of deer only if he is satisfied that the night shooting is necessary to prevent damage to crops, and so on. If not he but a third person—who is to be nominated by him—is to shoot at night, then the Red Deer Commission are brought into the matter, and they will not act unless the matters in paragraphs (a) and (b) satisfy them.
This is a very real advance. I appreciate that none of us, nobody in any part of the House, likes the idea of shooting. Speaking as an individual, I certainly do not. Equally, most noble Lords would agree that there are certain occasions—particularly in Scotland where we have these vast areas of single age woodland—where unfortunately control cannot be kept without it. It is not only the Forestry Commission which would not be able to control deer as things stand, but also some of these other new private enterprise companies which have grown up and which are also planting large areas of trees.
My noble friend Lord Burton asked: "Why cannot the Forestry Commission put proper deer fences round their woods with suitable jumping off points for the deer to get out?" He says that they are rich and should be able to undertake this. But the Forestry Commission are not rich. They have a certain amount of taxpayers' money and one of the duties of the Government which I take seriously is to see that the Forestry Commission do not have a penny more of the taxpayers' money than is necessary. Whether my noble friend's particular suggestion is one which commends itself to your Lordships, I rather doubt.

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The fact of the matter is—and I state it reluctantly—that, unfortunately, it is necessary to have night shooting; but, of course, if in Committee it is felt that certain safeguards should be written into the Bill, then that will be examined with the greatest care.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, may I trespass on the time of the noble Earl once more? He made a passing mention to shooting out of season and then left that and went on to night shooting. May I press him on the point that I made about it being possible still—unamended in this Bill—for an occupier to shoot out of season at any animal simply found on arable land; not even causing damage, not even causing serious damage, but merely found? Does he admit that is an error in the drafting?
The Earl of Mansfield: Yes, that point is so, my Lords. I think that the reasons are plain. I was asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, about Red Deer Commission observers on deer panels. The Government are of the opinion that, particularly if the role of the Deer Commission is to be enlarged, these local panels will be a very useful means of obtaining local advice on management and, where necessary and perhaps more importantly, control. Observers will be necessary to ensure that the panels' policies are reasonably uniform and reflect the policy of the commission as a whole. I would regard that as a worthwhile idea.
Then, asks the noble Lord, what about a pension for the chairman? What I can say to him is this: this clause of the Bill is part of a tidying-up exercise. What happens is that whenever legislation is introduced affecting a particular Quango—and of course the Red Deer Commission is one—the opportunity is taken to include provision for a chairman's pension, and also, in the earlier part of the clause, for a rather more unpleasant fate that might befall him, if he were to become mentally unstable or bankrupt.
The position of the chairman of the Red Deer Commission is very different from that of the members. He has to carry the burden of day-to-day decisions and attend a number of conferences, meetings and so on. He also has to keep in constant touch with his staff. No other member of the commission undertakes work that is nearly so onerous as this, and I do not suppose they would even compare themselves with the chairman in this respect. I am not saying that this power means that the chairman will inevitably be given a pension; nor is it contemplated at the moment, I believe. But we are taking the power and, as I said before, primary legislation in the matter of deer does not come every day.
I am painfully conscious that I have taken up a great deal of your Lordships' time; but mention was made of the monitoring of roe shooting at night. Roe deer are very widespread in Scotland, and one wonders therefore whether it would be beyond the power of the Red Deer Commission to undertake such monitoring. I do not believe that the Red Deer Commission will grant authorisations at all freely. If I am right about this—and I am sure I am, because everybody shares the distaste of night shooting—these authorisations will be granted as an exceptional measure, and in that
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instance I do not believe that it will be difficult to keep an eye on the situation. And, of course, it will be essential for the occupier to keep the Red Deer Commission in the picture.
Most of the other matters which were raised are really Committee points, I think. I will look through the Official Report tomorrow and take stock with my noble friend Lord Glenarthur. If any point has been raised which I can answer, because I have lived with these problems rather longer perhaps than my noble friend, I will undertake to write to the noble Lord concerned; but if my noble friend, whose Bill this is, wishes to do so, then no doubt he will write the letter himself.
I hope from what I have said that I can have the agreement of the House when I say that the Government are keen to see the law relating to deer amended and brought up to date. Quite obviously, so far as this Bill is concerned, there is going to be contentious debate, but I do not think we should be too frightened of that if, at the end of that contentious debate, on a number of points a real consensus emerges. If that happens, then I think such consensus will impress itself upon another place and the chances of this Bill becoming an Act and going on to the statute book will be immeasurably higher. For this evening I will merely say that I hope your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
6.55 p.m.
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, we have heard a great deal this afternoon in more than three and a half hours on the subject of deer, and though I must say I have heard a great many of the points raised before while we have been discussing this Bill, I still feel I have learned a lot from what has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon. Of course, when I read the Official Report I will have an even better opportunity to mull over what has been said and consider the views that have been expressed, with a view to the Committee stage in due course. As my noble friend Lord Mansfield said, I am sure that the Government will do likewise.
I am most grateful to those noble Lords who have thought it brave of me to take the Bill on. I must confess that, in the face of all the comments that have been made, particularly from behind me, I am beginning to feel rather brave and perhaps even foolhardy myself—but I have it, and I shall continue with it. I think, as my noble friend has said, it would be a mistake to go into too great detail now on all the points that have been raised. There are a great many of them and I should like to look at what has been said and then consider them further at Committee stage. However, there are one or two points I can usefully comment on now, and the first one I should like to mention is the question of the interests of conservation. Several noble Lords have expressed the view that the Bill seeks to remove or in some way adjust the important power of the Red Deer Commission to conserve red deer. That is in fact quite a simple matter to explain, because where it specifically removes the words "in the interests of conservation" in Clause 1, it does not amend the provisions in Section 1 of the 1959 Act, which says:

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"There shall be constituted a commission to be called 'the Red Deer Commission' … which shall have the general functions of furthering the conservation and control of red deer …".
So the prime interest of conservation remains. It is only in the other part of the Bill, which relates to an extension of the power to deal with marauding deer, that the words "in the interests of conservation" have been removed. That is simply because there is a general requirement for the commission to advise on control. They are being increasingly asked to do so; but again we shall come back to that at the Committee stage.
Several noble Lords expressed concern about the need for owners to be kept informed, at the very least, of what is going on so far as the killing of red deer is concerned. I think there is a fairly valid point here, because in the case of a deer forest owner the management of deer is all-embracing and he cannot possibly be expected to have a broad idea of what is going on all over the place if, willy-nilly, people are shooting deer. I would myself like to see some provision in the Bill at a suitable point to take that further so that the owners are kept aware of what is going on. How it can be done I am not quite sure at this moment, but certainly I am keen on the idea myself and I am sure that my noble friend will be able to help me with it.
I do not propose to go further into the firearms question tonight. It has been hammered out often enough, and I think that my noble friend Lord Mansfield has made the point perfectly well in his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield. I am delighted that the subject of poaching has come up and also that the effect the Bill will have on this has met with widespread support. I feel that the provisions are a real help, and anything further that can be done to improve them in the Committee stage will only be welcomed more.
I do not propose to get bogged down now in the question of night shooting. It has been covered by my noble friend Lord Mansfield, and it is too complex and too emotive a matter to get bogged down in now. But I should like to make one last comment on the rights of occupiers, to extend the comments that my noble friend Lord Mansfield made in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, just now. I think that the point which the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, was trying to make was that occupiers by day will still have a right to shoot, even if the deer are not doing any damage, and that part of the Bill repeats part of the Agriculture (Scotland) Act 1948. That is all it does. I do not think I want to go into it any more just now. As I said, all it does is to repeat provisions of the 1948 Act.
I hope that noble Lords will not become too entrenched in respect of any particular aspect of this Bill. There is a great temptation to take up a position and refuse to budge. I also feel, from the views that have been expressed, that there is a general wish that this Bill was not a Bill at all, but was a deer management document. The idea of the Bill is to amend the law which, as I see it, relates to certain specific maxima—how far one can go in a certain direction. I believe that it would be wrong to try to incorporate any more into the Bill. The object of the exercise is to try to set a maximum limit on certain aspects, and specifically to remove the possibility of certain things not being covered by the law. That is where the night shooting
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aspect is particularly important, because it is not covered at the moment so far as forestry owners are concerned, and I believe that it ought not to be outside the law.
We have had a very interesting and stimulating debate and I do not propose to detain your Lordships any longer. I shall look forward, after a certain amount of work, to the Committee stage. In the meantime, I hope that your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

New Towns Bill
7.2 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. Perhaps I may start by saying a few words about what the Bill does. Like nearly all statutory corporations, the new town corporations in England, Scotland and Wales, are subject to an overall limit on their borrowing from all sources. Currently that limit stands at £4,000 million, and the towns are getting near to it. What the Bill does is to raise the limit to £4,500 million, with power for the Secretary of State to increase it by affirmative order to £5,000 million. This extra £1,000 million should be sufficient to last the towns about two years.
Turning to how this new borrowing will be used, your Lordships will know how much importance the Government place on involving the skills and resources of the private sector, in the development of the new towns. The more we can achieve this, the less the call on scarce public funds, and the towns themselves will be better balanced as a result. This involvement of the private sector is becoming very substantial. We estimate that in 1980–81 the private sector will have invested about £100 million in new houses, and about £75 million in shops, offices and factories, as well as about £60 million in joint venture schemes with the new town corporations—in all, about £250 million.
But we recognise that there are some activities which have to be funded publicly—main roads and other basic infrastructure, to open up land for employment and housing, and advanced factories for towns such as Corby, where the need for new jobs is critical and where the private sector may be reluctant to carry this development risk. It is to tasks such as these that the new public money will go. My honourable friend the Minister for Housing and Construction listed projects in the Second Reading debate in the other place. I will not add to the list now, as many noble Lords are already aware of new town projects currently in hand, and of what towns are planning for the future; and further details can, of course, be found in their annual reports.
What I should like to do now is pick up one or two of the themes from the recent debates in the other place, and look at them a little more closely. First, as my honourable friend said on Second Reading, the Government's policy is to concentrate public resources on the inner cities. New towns are nearing the end of their development programmes, whereas the inner city task is only now getting under way. So it follows that

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the public resources needed for new towns will fall, in contrast to those for the urban programme.
However, I would deny that there is any conflict or antagonism between the needs of new towns and these of inner urban areas. Instead I would argue that there is a cycle of development and redevelopment embracing both. When we look at the state of our conurbations at the end of the war—and particularly London—it was inevitable that we would have to rebuild them at lower population density. The new towns provided one—and it is only one—of the places to which people went. And those that did built thriving, prosperous new communities: mostly, I am sure, they did not regret their choice. The emphasis now, however, is on the other part of the cycle, with our efforts to revitalise inner cities.
If we look at the new towns closely, we can see that they are doing more than providing new communities on green field sites. At Central Lancashire and Warrington the complete cycle of development and redevelopment is working in the town itself. At first, both those corporations focused on opening up new sites for jobs and homes. But now they are both actively involved in renewing their older urban areas, in conjunction with the local authorities. Those of your Lordships who have seen recent new town developments will, I am sure, agree with me that we can be confident that we are creating the homes and the environment in which people will want to live.
That leads me to another area of concern, to both inner cities and new towns—the remedying of dereliction. The problem of derelict or wasted land in inner cities is now a familiar one, and one that the Government arc tackling vigorously. But new towns also face that problem; indeed, it was a major factor in the setting up of Telford, Warrington and Basildon. At Telford the corporation have had dramatic success in tackling a legacy stretching back to the start of the Industrial Revolution. They have now reclaimed over 2,000 acres of spoil heaps and treated over 1,000 disused mine shafts, and their work continues. At Warrington the corporation have successfully dealt with 900 acres of former ordnance works and are now tackling the residue of a derelict army camp. At Basildon the corporation have cleared and restored large areas of sub-standard urban sprawl.
I hope that these few examples demonstrate the community of interest of new towns and inner cities. And, indeed, the lessons we have learned from successful agencies, such as the new towns, are now being applied in the inner cities through the urban development corporations. I am sure that your Lordships will wish them the same success as the new towns have attained.
I should like now to turn to another area of contention—the sale of assets. I know that the party opposite often try to argue that this is something new, and disastrous. It is neither. Rollover of assets has been a feature of new town life for many years now. And what one must accept is that, without the sales programme, the level of public investment in the towns would have had to be much smaller. The recycling of the receipts from sales—plus the greater use of private sector skills and resources, to which I referred a moment
ago—are the things that have kept the momentum in the new town programmes going.
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The figures illustrate the point. Over the three financial years from 1979–80 to the end of this year, 1981–82, total public capital expenditure in all the towns was some £1,100 million; while over the same period sale proceeds from industrial and commercial property, and from housing, was just over £400 million. So there has been net Exchequer investment of around £700 million.
I would also like to say a word about housing. This was covered very thoroughly in the debates in the other place, so I will not add a great deal now. The new towns have an excellent record, both of getting houses built, and, since this Government took office, of pressing ahead with our new initiatives to help the less well-off own their own homes. Sales to sitting tenants, shared ownership, the provision of sites for starter homes—my Lords, the new towns are making great progress on all of these. Where the Government and Opposition differ is in their perception of what people want: the Opposition are fixated by the idea of rental and of councils and new town corporations retaining stock, whereas the Government are concerned to provide all those who want it with a home of their own. The results in the new town constituencies at the last election bear witness to what the people preferred.
I have dealt with one or two contentious issues, but I would not like to close my remarks on that note. Whatever the political differences, noble Lords on all sides do, I am sure, recognise the achievements of the towns over the last 35 years under Governments of both complexions. As towns now move towards the end of their period of planned development and the beginning of their life as "old" towns, I would like to pay tribute to the boards of the corporations and to all their staff who have worked so hard to bring about a real British success story—a success that is admired around the world. Although times arc difficult, I know that everyone involved with the towns will work hard to bring them to a satisfactory completion, just as they worked to get them established. In this Bill the Government demonstrate their commitment to this task. I ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill now be read a second time.—(Lord Bellwin.)
7.12 p.m.
Baroness David: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for his explanation of this short Bill and to say at once that the Opposition gives it support and, indeed, welcomes the billion and the change of heart on the part of the Government. I note with interest that the limits of the public sector borrowing requirement seem to have acquired a degree of flexibility. I think we can be pleased that the Government are learning. When they came to office there was definite suspicion of new town development corporations as Quangos, but today it seems that Ministers are satisfied that the corporations are doing a good job and that they should be given the wherewithal to carry on. Indeed, the Government, in setting up urban development corporations for Docklands and Merseyside, are copying the new town pattern. We know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I would agree with the Minister in what he has just said: that there need be no conflict or competition between the new towns and the UDCs, and we wish them well.

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There is another change of attitude which I notice. In the Government's early days Ministers suggested that most of the spending in new towns could be funded by private enterprise but now there is recognition—and the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, mentioned it—that there are some things which private enterprise cannot and will not do. The Minister for Housing and Construction, Mr. Stanley, in the Second Reading debate in another place said, at col. 758 of Hansard of 26th January:
"Development corporations and the Commission for the New Towns will be seeking to make the maximum use of private finance, but some public funding will still be needed. It will be needed for essential main road schemes—for example, the eastern expressway at Runcorn and the western approach road at Basildon, which clearly cannot be privately financed. Public expenditure will be needed for other essential infrastructure—roads and sewerage in particular—to round off housing, industrial and commercial areas in so far as this infrastructure cannot be financed by developers themselves.
"Public funding may also be required for a limited programme of advance factories in towns such as Washington and Corby, where the private sector may be unwilling to take the development risk, and where there is an imperative local employment need to have industrial space immediately available for incoming firms. The Bill is, therefore, essential to the orderly and satisfactory completion of the new town programme over the next few years".
With that I would wholeheartedly agree. This conversion on the part of the Government is very satisfactory. Reports from Cooper and Lybrands and from the Government's own adviser, David Young, shortly to be chairman of the Manpower Services Commission, showed that in the early years money has to be put in by Government before private enterprise will come in. This pump priming is needed not just for infrastructure and advance factories but also for creating amenities and the recreational facilities that are an essential part of new towns and the full life that the people who have moved there have been promised.
To come to the Bill itself, it was expected that the 1980 Act which increased the borrowing limit for new towns by £750 million would keep them going until the end of 1983. But we are told that this sum will run out in April 1982, one year and nine months earlier than planned. The reason for this is mainly the Government's disastrous policy of high interest rates. High interest rates have also brought new town finances into difficulty, making it many more years than would otherwise have been the case before the investment in new towns can pay a dividend in the way that the early new towns like Crawley are doing. I hope that the Government are now convinced that their best policy is to encourage and enable development corporations to complete their programmes at the fastest possible rate. This is the best way to exploit their success in attracting and generating job growth, in enhancing land and property values to the benefit of the public purse and ensuring that the job is done most economically.
The second reason why there has to be this Bill now to increase the borrowing limit, is that new town assets have not been disposed of at the rate the Government hoped. When the Local Government and Planning (No. 2) Bill was before this House we attempted to make sure that the proceeds from the selling of commercial and industrial assets would be used for investment in the towns rather than for Treasury purposes. Of the £300 million which Mr. Stanley said in the debate in the other place would be realised by the end of this financial year from asset disposals, I understand that
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between £50 million and £100 million have gone to the Treasury. I am not sure whether the Minister mentioned the amount which has gone to the Treasury. If I missed the amount I apologise. Perhaps the Minister would repeat it, or tell us what it is if he did not mention it.
May I also ask him whether he agrees that it is foolish to sell off assets which could be worth a great deal more in a few years' time when the new town is fully developed and been seen to be highly successful, commercially and industrially. For example, sale of a block of shops bringing in a relatively low rental income when the town is half built is unwise. If the state holds on until the town is more nearly complete, the turnover of the shops will be higher, the rents will be higher and the capital value will be higher. Selling off in a depressed market during a recession seems to be particularly unwise. Mr. Stanley said in the debate in another place that the sales must be on a commercially prudent basis. Can we assume that the Government are accepting that and that they will not press hard on sales? I should like to have reassurance on this point.
I understand that the Government are to announce in the summer new policies for the long-term financial problem which comes from accumulating interest charges; that there will be a rescheduling/restructuring of development corporation finances. This is to be welcomed, for, as I said earlier, the high interest rates through the late 1970s were the primary cause of much greater indebtedness being built up by the corporations, then launching very large building programmes. The deficits were substantially increased by new arrangements made by Government for much larger contributions to county councils for new roads, to the water authorities for advance provision of their services, and in some towns to the area health authorities. It is not sensible for the very large deficit so imposed to be a charge on the corporations and on their revenues, which just cannot be large enough to cope with them.
When the Government are considering their new plans would they give consideration to allowing the corporations to borrow for five or seven years for certain commercial and industrial projects which could then be sold out when fully let? The burden of 60 year loans would then be avoided.
I want to make a few comments on the sale of houses in new towns and the virtual end of new housebuilding for rent. I should like to make it clear that the Labour Party is not opposed to selling council houses or new town houses, provided that the sales will not harm the housing stock in the area and deprive people on the waiting list of the chance to get a house at a reasonable rent. Sales are perfectly acceptable in a number of new towns. We are also pleased that private funding is coming in to build houses for sale, offices and some of the factories, shops and shopping centres.
But we have reservations about the ending of new house building for rental. The Minister may say that there is a surplus of housing in some new towns at the moment. There is, but this can be expected. Because of the recession and Government policies, industry is arriving more slowly and new population is not being attracted at as fast a rate as it was earlier. But the new towns must have attractive houses ready for incoming industry that wants to bring in key workers and attract particular skills. Such housing availability has been a

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traditional part of the attraction of new towns for industry. Newcomers very often want to rent first while they are making sure that they have made the right decision in moving and that the job is permanent; they may want to buy later. This is particularly important in the third generation new towns which still have some way to go before handover.
The Government are stopping or discouraging the building of rented accommodation for old people—bungalows, sheltered housing with wardens and so on—but these are very important for those who moved in early and a changing age structure has to be taken into account. The second generation who were born and brought up in new towns will need rented housing to start with, until they can afford to buy. On 26th January Mr. Stanley in the House of Commons (col. 761, Official Report) spoke of one bedroom starter homes being available for £15,500 in central Lancashire and for £17,000 in Basildon. He said that these prices were certainly within the reach of young couples and single people with modest earnings. I would query that. I was interested to see that in the same debate, the Conservative Member for Buckingham argued strongly for keeping a strong element of public rented housing in third generation new towns. The indiscriminate ending of new building for renting should give way to a real assessment of what is needed, town by town. Can the Minister give an assurance that that will be done?
Again on the subject of housing, has the Minister anything to tell us about progress in settling claims for design building defects in new town housing which has been transferred? With claims under Section 51 of the New Towns Act 1981, formerly Section 10 of the New Towns (Amendment) Act 1976, there have been long delays which have caused considerable difficulties for some new towns and councils which have taken over responsibility for housing. Peterlee and Easington District Council are probably the worst sufferers. When can they expect help? Another worrying factor is, do the Government intend to do anything to help the bad unemployment which some towns are suffering, particularly in Scotland? I believe it would be fair to say that unemployment, which stands at 17.9 per cent. in Strathclyde, would be very much worse, were it not for the new industry which Cumbernauld, East Kilbride and Irvine have brought in. I believe that to be true of England, too. The success of the new towns has been partly in being able to attract high technology business and industry, not only from Britain but also from Europe and the USA. Scores of modern foreign companies have come here.
I said that the Opposition supports this Bill, but I would like to say that I personally am an enthusiast for new towns. I believe that they have been a real success story. They have provided a new environment of high quality in which people can live a very different sort of life from that in the areas from which they came, with opportunities for all kinds of recreation, sport and arts. The lives of the locals have been enriched too. Much dereliction has been cleared in towns such as Irvine and Telford, as the noble Lord mentioned when introducing the Bill. The unique relationship between development corporations and local authority members has ensured quick decision and quick action. New towns
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are often outstanding growth points for industry with the advantages they have for rapid communications. But new towns—particularly Mark III new towns—need the funds to complete their plans and development. I am glad that this Bill is being brought forward to provide those funds.
7.24 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady David, professed her support for the Bill, but I must admit that she could have fooled me at times, although I believe I grasped the underlying gist of what she was saying. I shall do the best I can to respond to some of the points she made. First, the noble Baroness asked me to assure her that, in the matter of the disposal of assets, sales were not being made that were unwise. Assurances were given in 1980 that no sales would be made against the best professional advice and this still holds good. That is the position. I understand the philosophical difference between the parties in their attitudes towards the sale of assets and I suppose one would simply have to agree to disagree to that. So far as the Government are concerned, we are satisfied not only that this is right but, as I said when introducing the Bill, it is enabling the Government to give the kind of support needed to allow new towns to do much of what they are wanting to do.
Baroness David: My Lords, if the noble Lord will allow me to intervene, we are not against the sale of assets; what we are against is selling them prematurely, when their value might be greater later.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, that is the argument which is always given because there is little doubt that if one waits long enough, inflation being what it is, the chances are that one would get more. But what really matters, surely, is what one does with the money one gets for the sales and how one disposes of that money. If that money can be used in one way or another to regenerate additional assets or to make greater savings, then that is a complete answer to the argument that one should not sell now but should wait until later.
As to the point about how much money goes back to the Treasury, I understand that the figures are some £40 millions in tax and £24 millions in other ways. But whenever one looks at this matter of the amount of money that comes from the Treasury, one has to come back to the total amount of investment in the new towns, where the figures far outweigh anything that comes from the sales, as I mentioned when introducing the Bill.
As to the other points that the noble Baroness made about the sale of houses, one can speak as much as one likes and, my goodness! in this House we have had some hours of debate on the arguments for and against the sale of council houses. I am sure that the noble Baroness would not thank me for embarking on that again now; dearly though I would like to do so, I will resist the temptation. On that point I will say only that, with regard to the policy of not building accommodation for renting in the new towns, just a few figures would perhaps be helpful to illustrate what the position really is.

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In 1980 the programme for rented house construction in the English new towns was reduced to 1,000 dwellings. We then decided that no further rented housing should be started by development corporations unless there were really convincing reasons for doing so in special cases. Instead, new towns are to concentrate on shared ownership and on the provision of sites for the private sector, including starter homes. All new rented housing by new town corporations therefore requires specific approval. The current programme includes some 300 rented dwellings in Washington—rounding off a previous development—and 240 in Central Lancashire New Town. There are also some 60 rented houses being built at Basildon to meet the special needs of the elderly and the disabled. Despite the switch to shared ownership and private site provision there has not been any shortage of housing in the new towns to meet the needs of incoming population. In fact, it has been quite the opposite.
In September 1981, some 6,800 rented dwellings were vacant in the 11 English new towns which retained their housing—some 6 per cent. of their total stock. I would certainly agree that some of these dwellings are unoccupied for quite valid reasons, such as the need for repair or because they are being sold. Nevertheless, there are considerable numbers of vacant dwellings immediately available for rental in nearly all the new towns. For example, there are more than 800 in Telford, another 800 in Peterborough, and over 480 in Northampton. So it really cannot be maintained that the emphasis towards home ownership has resulted in any shortage of houses for rental in the new towns. As for the other point the noble Baroness made, I would say that we are making progress towards the settlement of authorities' claims for grant under Section 51 of the New Towns Act towards the cost of remedial work to former new town houses. She will probably know that we commissioned the National Building Agency to advise us on these claims, and the work is due to be completed by the end of May by a company established by former staff of the agency. We aim to take the final decision on the extent of assistance to be made available as soon as possible after we have received their report and after we have held any necessary further discussions with the authorities concerned and the ADC. I hope that, after this lapse of time, it will be possible to reach an equitable settlement, and meanwhile we have made it clear to authorities that they can carry out any urgent work without prejudicing their claims.
On the point the noble Baroness raised about the possibility of short-term loans, my honourable friend said in another place that he would reconsider short-term loans from the Exchequer, and this, as I understand it, is what is happening at the present time.
So, without making much ado of the whole matter, I think the parties and indeed everyone in your Lordships' House can unite in our appreciation of what the new towns have achieved and indeed that we can send our best wishes to them as they move towards the end of their lives as new towns and towards what we all hope will be their very successful lives as normal towns. I think they are continuing to do an excellent job. This Bill will enable them to press on in the task of bringing their work to completion. I would ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Small Businesses: Workshops
7.32 p.m.
Lord Northfield Lord Northfield rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what progress is being made in the building of factory workshop units for small businesses, and what role they believe local authorities have to play.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting my Question tonight about the state of play on building small industrial units and the role of local authorities, I speak mainly as president of the Federation of Industrial Development Authorities. This is a nonparty body of local authorities who are concerned to preserve their role in assisting industrial development in their areas. They look for partnership with private enterprise, the English Industrial Estates Corporation, pension funds and so on. These are sensible local authorities who want to help forward private investment mainly in their own areas. The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, addressed a recent seminar of the federation. We are very grateful to him, and to the Departments of the Environment and Industry for their consideration, for their willingness to consult the federation as appropriate.
My Lords, I say right away that considerable steps have been taken by the present Government to help small business. I have here a six-page summary of the various steps the Government have taken. I take my hat off to them. This is very worthwhile progress. While urging them on, I cannot begrudge them a word of admiration for the steps taken so far.
My Lords, I come to the first half of my Question, what progress can the Government report on the building of small units in our community. I make three preliminary points. As I said in a previous debate, we have a long way to go in this matter before we get anywhere near equal to France and Germany, for example, in the number of small manufacturing units in our industry. They are three or four times ahead of us. We have such a long way yet to go in getting the right quantity of small manufacturing businesses in our society. The figure are quite appalling.
Secondly, advance provision of factories, workshop units, whatever you like to call them, is the key to getting the movement going, as I shall show in a moment in relation to my own new town. This is the right way to go about it. You get the local young or old person started; if he wants to make a start there is the place for him at a reasonable rent. He does not have to wait 18 months for it to be built, by which time he has gone off the boil or economic circumstances have changed. The workshop is there and he can rent it tomorrow and get going without undue hassle. This is the key to the whole thing.
My third preliminary point is to say that I am glad to see that the Government now do not think that private enterprise will make all this provision of small advance units. The Cooper and Lybrand report, which my noble friend Lady David mentioned in the last debate, showed the Government that there are many areas and circumstances in which pension funds

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and other private investors will not want to be bothered with small units; they do not want to be outside the larger centres of population, generally speaking. If they are going to invest as pension funds they want to be in fairly large groupings of such units. They do not want to bother with remote areas, the rural areas. They do not want the problems of managing these small units, where tenants arrive and depart much more frequently than in bigger units. They do not want to be bothered with the cheaper, secondhand, relatively run-down premises that a public authority can often provide at a sum for somebody to rent to start his own business.
So for all those reasons there is room for public enterprise in this matter. I am glad that the Government, after some initial hesitation, recognise this. I was in on it as chairman of the Development Commission; I was told in those early days, "Private enterprise is going to do the lot". I said to the Government, "You will soon learn that that is not so", and I am glad that Cooper and Lybrand taught them some catechism a little later on. But apart from all that, we are now in a new situation where I think the Government accept the role of public authorities and others.
May I ask what progress has been made in these two years in the number of small units to rent? What has been the result of this £30 million borrowing by the English Industrial Estates Corporation from a pension fund, and the Government's own £5 million that they put in for the building of small units in assisted areas? Are they built? Are they late? How are they going? Secondly, what is happening under the Treasury system of allowing 100 per cent. initial allowance against tax for the building of these small units under 2,500 square feet? Is this bringing forward a lot more units, and if so, how many? Thirdly, what is happening in the Development Commission?
I was proud to play a part as chairman there in starting off their building of small units. When I went there six or seven years ago they had built only six. The figures today, in terms of factories, small workshops, either built or under construction, are just about 1,000. I am immensely proud of that progress. More important than that perhaps, are local government bodies now taking up the authorisation which I fought for, that the Development Commission will go 50–50 with them in the cost of small workshops in rural areas? If they are, how is that progressing?
Can the noble Lord tell us anything about how enterprise trusts are going? I have one in my own new town where we are converting the huge Maws Tileries, the greatest tile factory in the world in the 19th century, with some money from us as a Development Corporation and money from the MSC, because we shall be using unemployed men, both to train them and to give them work in doing this building transformation. We are converting the whole of Maws Tileries into a series of workshops which we can let at very low rents to small businesses, and the demand is enormous. What is happening on that front?
Lastly, what is happening in the building of these small units by the local authorities themselves? In particular, are local authorities being allowed sufficient capital for this kind of development under the new
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system of the Local Government and Planning Act, 1980? In what way are they able to get ahead? Is there a satisfactory use of the 1963 Act powers to build and to lend money?
Before I move on to the second half of my Question, I thought that the House might be interested in my own experience in terms of a few figures regarding my own new town of Telford. We have a population of 103,000. That is not a very big population by any standard. But we have 200 units under 2,500 square feet either built, building or planned. Several dozen extra to the 200 are provided by private enterprise and the local authority. There is immense diversity in tenancies, ranging from metal to electronics, wood, food, designers and clothing manufacturers. All kinds of people are finding their own way of doing their own thing in these small units.
What is our experience of how satisfactory is the performance? Let me give a few figures. In the past year when employment as a whole in my town has dropped, the workshop units have increased their numbers in employment from 333 to 402. They have bucked the trend completely with the whole of the remainder of the economy in my town. Of the 78 firms who were in occupation at the beginning of 1981, we find that only 10 have collapsed. That is not a bad record—indeed, I thought that it was a pretty good record. Let us take the experience of an older scheme, of a dozen units, which we started in 1978. In 1978 those dozen units were creating 62 jobs. Today, unhappily, four of them have closed; however, five have moved to bigger premises; and as regards the eight survivors, there has been a 50 per cent. increase in the employment that they have created. Against the national trend on that scale, this is a pretty marvellous performance and I am immensely proud of it.
But what else do we do to help the whole thing keep going? We do not just provide premises. We have an industrial research and development unit which is run on a shoestring; does not cost very much. But what does it do? I helps small-scale business of all kinds. It helps in the development of small inventions. It assists small, established industry to develop its products. It thinks up ideas in regard to local gaps in products and gets local small units to take them on. In its first couple of years it has helped 50 businesses in this way, and 50 projects to get under way.
In addition, we have a business services unit with five or six accountants helping now 100 established firms in their case load, and over 200 new starters since 1980 to get going with accountancy advice and advice as to how to keep afloat. I give the example of 16 firms which were saved from near liquidation. The business services unit, with its accountants and advisers, went in, and only two firms finally failed after being near to liquidation, the remaining 14 now employing over 250 people. We have saved them and, by giving them advice, have helped them round the corner.
Finally, we have a youth employment group helping the under-25s, with MSC money, to make a start in small business on their own. That is a pretty complete picture which I have run through very rapidly, but it shows what we can do in new towns; what other new

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towns and other local authorities are doing throughout the country to try to assist small business.
I come to the second half of my Question. Can the noble Lord tell us whether the Government are now getting near to making up their mind on the more precise role they see for local authorities in helping small business get on its way? I go regularly to Japan. That is an example of a private enterprise economy, but one in which the full partnership between public authority and private enterprise is established beyond all question and never doubted. Japanese success is founded on a carefully built partnership between the state and the local authorities and private enterprise. So there is nothing to be afraid of, even for a Conservative Government—if I may put it that way—in seeking to establish and to confirm a good role for local authorities.
When I originally put down my Question we were waiting for the Government's answer to the Report of the committee chaired by Sir Wilfred Burns—the Burns Report of 1980—which looked into the role of local authorities and sought to give advice to the Government. Today the Government have, in fact, answered a Question for Written Answer of mine about the Burns Report and so I can now come in more clearly on what I want to ask the noble Lord. The Burns Report—and I shall later be summarising it with all the risks of being wrong in detail—ended by saying:
"Local authorities should be able to plan for employment as a positive activity working alongside the private sector and central Government. Their activities should be kept complementary to rather than competitive with those of central Government and those of the private sector".
I absolutely agree.
But what did they say were the options if that policy were carried out? They said that many authorities are relying at the moment on the use of Section 137 of the Local Government Act, which gives them the power to use a 2p rate. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Spens, will develop that point in a moment. Some of them have private Acts of Parliament. Although it is not specifically spelt out in the Burns Report, they all have other powers which they can use, such as the 1963 Act, relating to land and premises that they can loan money on. So, generally speaking, the Burns Report says that they have mounted a system of indirect help to industry which in 1978 was less than £100 million—that, I think, was roughly the figure in the Burns Report—compared with the Government's assistance to industry at that time of well over £400 million. So it was not a very ambitious or wrongly overblown system of help to local industry that the local authorities were trying to achieve.
Burns said that if you want to get it right in future you have some options: you either leave Section 137 as it is and make sure that the authorities can use the 2p rate, or you can spell out the precise powers that they ought to have and the precise money they ought to have to go with them and the type of areas to which either the powers or the money should be confined, some having more than others, depending on their need.
In answer to a Question for Written Answer today the noble Lord has said that the outcome of the Government's consideration of the Burns Report is that, for the generality of local authorities outside the
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inner urban areas, as regards help to industry, they are going to take away the power, in so far as it exists, to use Section 137 and instead will substitute the power to give help to all small businesses in any way that the local authority likes, up to the product of a ½p rate. That is the outcome of their consideration. In the inner urban areas authorities will still be allowed to use the 2p rate as well as the rate, so some of the authorities will come off slightly better, if I may put it that way.
Thirdly, the Government say that they will follow the Burns recommendations about some improvements in the Local Authorities (Land) Act 1963. They can give bigger loans on land, they can allow loans to cover the cost of lease or purchase, and other points as well, all of which are helpful. But here I have to ask the noble Lord a frank question. Are these proposals going to restrict those local authorities who have been reasonably ambitious in the way in which they help local industry?
If you have a local authority that is using, say, the product of a one-penny rate under Section 137 or even a one and a half penny or a two penny rate, and in addition has a private Act of its own—and many of these Acts give local authorities powers to help local industry—and if that authority is now to have no private Act, because the Government are to cancel them all under the new proposals, and is only to have a half penny rate, does it mean that some local authorities will have to cut down the help that they can give to local industry? If so, it will be a great shame and it will he a regressive step.
I want to press the Minister on this. If, in consultations with our local authority, we find that this will damage even modest help by some of the main local authorities as compared with what they give today, will he reconsider the half penny rate and be willing to increase it to a penny rate, which I should have thought would be much more acceptable to everybody? Indeed, we are talking about sums which are so derisory in terms of local rates that we should agree that a penny rate spent in helping industry to get going in an area is hardly money wasted.
The noble Lord's officials kindly gave me a figure: this will allow, in total in the country, a £90 million expenditure, and in a district authority—in the average non-metropolitan district—it might be £165,000 a year. That is very average. I am not sure that that would compare with what some local authorities are quite properly spending at the moment. Therefore, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would expand on the Answer that he has kindly given today to my Question for Written Answer and give an assurance that the Government are open to a reconsideration if this proves unduly restrictive.
I should like to raise one final point, before I sit down. In the application of the Local Government and Planning Act, and the powers over control of capital expenditure, is the noble Lord satisfied that local authorities are getting reasonable access to all the capital they need in order to carry out these modest programmes of industrial assistance and industrial development?
It is not just the provision of advanced factories and workshop units with which we are concerned; it is those other things that we are doing in Telford and

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that we can do in new towns that often matter: an odd accountant to help, a business advisory service or something like that; there is the whole area of promotion of the local authority—all those other things amount to the sort of package that helps private enterprise to get going in these small units.
Therefore, I should like to be assured that the Government are not being unduly restrictive in the way in which they are using the Local Government and Planning Act to allow local authorities to spend on industry. I beg to ask my Unstarred Question, and I apologise because it has taken me quite a time to explain it to the House.
7.53 p.m.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, we must thank the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, very much for putting down this very timely Question. This might be an opportunity to say from these Benches how much we congratulate him personally on the work that he has done over the years to push along small businesses and their development in all possible ways. He has probably done more than anyone else in either House of Parliament in this area.
In supplementing this Question, I should like to congratulate the Government on all that they have done—and the noble Lord mentioned this—to encourage the opportunities for small businesses to get going, of which the construction of small workshops is a part. I think that they have done well in laying the groundwork for the opportunities for people to start off in all sorts of ways: in relation to helping the unemployed to get going, to having factory units, and so on.
However, there is one aspect of this which worries me, and it is whether, in fact, the Government have the administrative machinery sufficiently geared up to mable their very laudable processes to work properly. About two years ago I had occasion in a speech to quote to my noble friend Lord Gowrie, who was then speaking for the Department of Employment, something that I had read in the Reader's Digest, that someone starting a business with only three employees was having to fill in 30 forms for the Inland Revenue. My noble friend Lord Gowrie was absolutely appalled; it was an affront to him. The outcome—and I do not have the details to hand—was that I received a letter from him saying it that was true and that the Inland Revenue did demand 30 forms for chaps who were starting with only two employees, and that there were all sorts of jolly good reasons for it. I am not pressing that point now, but I have a feeling that the great efforts to help the small firms are possibly being hampered by the fact that the administrative juggernaut, which the Government have created to look after the big firms and to make sure that they do not cheat or whatever, is being used without much modification, and therefore preventing the small firms from getting under way in the manner in which the Government so clearly want them to. That is one point. Therefore, I should have preferred the noble Lord in his Question to elaborate not only on what progress is being made in the building of factory workshop units, but on what progress is being made in the occupation and use of factory workshop units.
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I want to take up the second point raised by the noble Lord concerning local authorities. Again, about two years ago, in a debate on unemployment—indeed, it might have been the same debate as the one to which I referred just now—I suggested to the Government that we want to get local authorities more involved and to have a sense of responsibility for employment in their areas; that they should have a feeling of being personally involved. In the same way, one would hope that the local authority felt personally involved in the promotion and encouragement of these small workshop units, and, indeed, in all other schemes of the Government for encouraging the development of small businesses.
I rather gained the impression from what the noble Lord quoted from the Written Answer to his Question that the Government were not as enthusiastic about encouraging local authorities in this sort of area as perhaps they should be. I very strongly believe that the local communities—not just the official local authorities, the county councils and the district councils —must be encouraged to have a greater sense of personal responsibility for developments within their own areas. I know that I have not given my noble friend Lord Bellwin advance notice of this, but if he can, perhaps he could widen his answer to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, to cover those two supplementary points which I have made.
7.58 p.m.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I join with the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, on tabling this Question on the Order Paper today and, indeed, for the great work that he has done in this field of a small businesses. First, perhaps I ought to declare a very indirect interest in that the company for which I work—Shell (U.K.)—is very active in the small business field, and I am indebted to some of my colleagues for some of the items to which I shall refer tonight. I suppose, again, that it will not come as any surprise that we, on the Liberal Benches, have always been keen on small businesses. There might by those cynics about to say that we are a small business ourselves, but we are changing that. However, clearly, this is not a party matter; it is something which goes across all sides of the House.
We all clearly understand now that there certainly is a demand for people to come out of jobs that they are doing at the moment and to do things for themselves. The climate has changed considerably in the last two or three years as a result of activities by this Government, and also by the last Government, particularly during the period of the Lib-Lab pact when I remember we persuaded the now Lord Lever to take on the job in that Government.
The demand is there. Many of your Lordships may have seen a series of seven programmes being produced by Yorkshire Television at the moment going out on Sundays on "Be your own boss". You may be interested to know that the National Extension College, which has some follow-up material for this, had anticipated a demand of some 15,000 inquiries over the whole of the seven programmes. My information is that after the first two programmes they had already had 13,500 inquiries. In the same way, the BBC is doing a

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series of five programmes, and my colleagues in my company are preparing some booklets to go along with that. The first print of that was 5,000, and after two programmes there they are being warned that they had better get on with reprinting it quickly. So I think we can agree that the demand is there.
I agree that considerable activity has been taking place over the past few years, both by the Government and by industry itself. Companies are supplying both funds and secondees, expertise in one way or another, and doing this largely through the enterprise agencies. That is greatly to be welcomed. There is, of course, room for more activity, and there is room for still more awareness of the good which can come to the economy from stimulating the small business sector.
While Members of this House and of another place are aware of it, it is not always the case that, throughout the length and breadth of the country the message has yet been sold, so we have a job to carry out there, and that is why it is good to see the subject being debated again in your Lordships' House tonight. We must not be starry-eyed about it. The fact is that a number of people in small businesses will go to the wall. Your Lordships are well aware of the problems of people going into new enterprises of this kind.
It is a common situation where an entrepreneur wants to go on his own because maybe he is fed up with working for a large company, maybe he feels a loss of identity in a larger unit, or maybe he has had an idea at the back of his mind for many years that he suddenly wants to get out and develop, or indeed sadly today it may be simply that he has been made redundant and is looking for another role in life. Whatever the cause, the likelihood is that his skills will be of a technical nature. In many cases the problems arise because of lack of skill perhaps in marketing, and certainly in terms of finance, particularly in the fields of financial planning and financial control.
This is an area where, as the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, suggested, advice may be an even more important factor than cash being put in. The classic case of bankruptcy which comes through expanding too rapidly, and the problems of cash flow, are quite simple when explained but nevertheless are not always taken on board by a man of great technical skill but really very little accountancy skills. This is the sort of area where I believe that the local authorities can be a help.
There have been considerable improvements, and we wait with interest to hear what the noble Lord the Minister has to say. Again, I confirm that the evidence is that the Budget arrangements in 1980 have helped considerably, although I am told that the majority of the help there has tended to go at the top end of the square footage, as it were; the majority of premises that have been coming out of that have been at near the 2,500 square feet, whereas there is still a great shortage down at the smaller, less than 1,500 square feet premises.
What then is the local authorities' role? There is a temptation always to think in terms of finance, and it has to be resisted to a certain extent—certainly in terms of any direct financing. It is possible that the local authority might be regarded as a lender of last resort, but then only very often for very small people and in small amounts. The market caters quite well
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for the majority of financing, although one might well question the situation with interest rates as they are at the moment. Nevertheless, frequently the really small man is looking for collateral and cover for hundreds of pounds rather than thousands of pounds.
Advice is a different matter, and here the local authorities can do a lot to catalyse activity. I have been given a leaflet produced by the Camden local authority, who are organising a number of seminars. I see that on 4th February particular emphasis was to be given to tax incentives, profit or loss, Camden's new financial surgery for small firms, with such important topics as the Gentle Art of Persuading Your Bank Manager, and Get a Good Accountant! This was a free programme. People were invited to apply to come along, and on that particular evening I understand that over 200 people turned up. This is part of a series. The earlier ones have had, I believe, over 100 at most of them. This is the kind of thing that with a modest amount of expenditure the local authorities can draw together, as they have done here, representatives from the banks, from enterprise agencies, from local accountants, and provide a genuine service where it matters for the small businessman.
Local authorities can also help in other ways indirectly. The whole question of local government purchasing policy is something that the Government ought to encourage to be looked at. I am not suggesting that there should be a complete distortion of their tendering system, or that a totally different set of rules should be set aside for small businessmen, but really some of the forms, as the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, has said, are quite unintelligible to the average common sense chap. Could local authorities have a look at that and make sure that for some of these smaller tenders—and we are talking about small tenders, or small parts of larger tenders—the forms are simplified, and see whether some of the regulations that these things are wrapped around with could be overlooked for tenders of certain sizes going to companies of certain sizes. There is, indeed, a need to be flexible.
There is also a need for local authorities to pay their bills on the dot. I am not suggesting in any way that they should do anything other than normal, but if they have credit terms within a contract then the payment should be made on the due date and not afterwards. That indeed applies to industry as well, to big businesses, and I know in our particular case that is something that we have worked on steadily over the last couple of years.
In terms of the leases for some of these premises, it should be borne in mind that the timescale probably needs to be shortened. You need to be able to get in and out quickly. This seems to be a message which comes forward from a number of pieces of evidence that we have received. They should also be looking at the provision within building sites, or within converted premises, for common service areas, with perhaps a central mini-computer, word processor, telephone answering service—not a telephone answering machine, but someone who is there and who can answer the phone on behalf of a number of small units, and give the sort of personal service which a bigger firm gives automatically but which a one-man or two-man company cannot do.

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There are, therefore, a number of practical things local authorities can encourage. Most of them are indirect and I hope the Government will indicate that they will encourage local authorities to keep on experimenting and recognising that this is an area which is of the gravest concern to the country, particularly at this time of high unemployment. Above all, I hope the Government will tell us tonight that the provision of premises is going well and that they expect to continue to encourage local authorities to provide premises, both new and converted, for some time to come.
8.11 p.m.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Northfield for initiating this debate. I, too, have seen the Written Answer to my noble friend's Question this afternoon.
I begin by welcoming the granting of general powers to local authorities to assist industry, but I am deeply unhappy with the limitation to the product of a ½p rate. I remember well the Burns Report stressing, as one of the most important of their conclusions, the need for financial incentives. But to work productively, it should be in addition to the present 2p; and by taking that out of the industrial arena, local authorities will have far less opportunity for their own flexibility.
In any case, I do not think the percentage for industrial works and enterprises should be less than 2 per cent. I fear that if it remains the way it is, it will mean a reduction on the whole for local authorities. The Minister will no doubt say the Government cannot afford more. However, we are now talking about expenditure which will be used in a productive way, hopefully to create wealth, promote industry and reduce unemployment. This is real investment, not dead-end expenditure.
The Inner Urban Areas Act 1978, which I took through this House—sitting where the Minister is sitting tonight; it is somehow more comfortable on that Bench than it is on this one—gave power to local authorities to give loans for site acquisition and building works, grants for co-op activities, site clearance, environmental work as well as for conversions for building improvements, the sort of things which obviously, if it had been possible, it would have been better to have had on a very much wider scale. In the last three years, some 250 schemes for small factory units have been funded through the urban programme. In view of the difficulties we have been going through, that has probably been a reasonable start, but of course it covers only those particular areas.
In the Written Answer, the Minister said the Government were conscious of the danger to their inner city and regional policies from directly competing activity by local authorities outside the disadvantaged areas. I should like to know what evidence there is of that. I have tried to find out if there is any and I cannot, but I am sure the noble Lord is much better informed on the subject than I am.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness to repeat the question, so that I may answer her in due course?
Baroness Birk: I was referring to the first part of the Written Answer to a Question today by my noble
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friend Lord Northfield, my Lords, in which the Minister said:
"On the other hand, they have been conscious of the danger to the Government's inner city and regional policies from directly competing activity by local authorities outside the disadvantaged areas".
I was asking what evidence there was of that. Are there any examples the Minister can give, or is it a sort of hunch? If it is the latter, I hope that will be made clear in the consultation paper. There is no doubt that the Government statement will be a terrible blow to those authorities which are spending up to or near the product of a rate of 2p and, as my noble friend Lord Northfield said, it applies to areas like Tyne and Wear, which in addition at the moment have their own private Act. It is areas where there in a very high degree of unemployment, particularly in the North East and North West, which arc industrially much more active in partnership schemes with private enterprise or co-operatives. Reducing the rate creates a weak incentive for authorities which might be inclined to enter this field; the carrot is rather too small on this occasion.
It can also be bad news for private enterprise because they benefit from the resulting partnerships, in that there are a number of spheres in which it is not worthwhile for them to dip their industrial toes in the water because they usually need much bigger operations. So although private enterprise has tried where it can to provide small factory units— and that has become much more difficult during the depression—on the whole the supply tends to be limited to units of 2,000 sq. ft. upwards. While that is understandable when one thinks of the problems of private firms and the infrastructure they need—all the management problems and so on—there are those who want limited accommodation of probably only a few hundred square feet. That is where the local authority can fulfil a need, together with private enterprise, whereas private enterprise on its own cannot.
There is another advantage, namely, that by providing small premises—such as even a converted terrace house —one is helping in the revival of craftmanship, something which has been lost for so long in this country. Indeed, there are all sorts of spheres where it is almost impossible to find somebody to do a job, or at any rate to do it well. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, when he spoke of things other than finance being needed from local authorities. Advice about and knowledge of an area are matters of the most tremendous importance. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mottistonc, in his point about participation both by local authorities and by the community. Indeed, in London in the last few months under the GLC a number of arrangements have been made with voluntary organisations and community organisations.
In an up-to-date report, the West Midlands show considerable positive industrial activity together with private enterprise. Incidentally, they refer in their report to their inner city programme, and they do not appear to think that their other industrial proposals will jeopardise the inner city development, even when it is quite close to it. Sheffield, to give another example, has done a great deal of excellent work in this sphere and in their very up-to-date report they say:
"Even at a time of high unemployment, there remain many pockets of skill shortage in the economy. More detailed local knowledge of the precise skills required by local firms would allow much more specific training to be carried out".

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Thus, the important role that can be played by local authorities in promoting employment must be emphasised all the time.
But now with the cut in the rate I believe that the Government are effectively proposing a reduction in what local authorities can do. Incidentally, will the point about the limitation of expenditure to the product of a halfpenny rate be included in the consultation paper, or have the Government made up their minds on the financial aspects, and will it be the other points that are included in the consultation paper? If there is very strong, widespread and wide-ranging opposition, will the Government be prepared to change their mind? I think we should know whether or not the matter is fixed.
Today, with Government cut-backs and the recession, current expenditure is severely restricted, and capital expenditure is also controlled by Government and has to stretch to cover social as well as industrial demands. Capital expenditure is restricted even where the local authority has the resources itself. If the receipts from interest on capital could be used for capital expenditure, instead of going into the revenue account, that would provide much more municipal opportunity. I know that the Government turned down that suggestion in relation to the last local government Act, but they should think about it again. It would compensate a little if it is impossible to budge them on the question of cutting the rate.
If the Minister says that many authorities do not spend anything like up to the product of a 2 pence rate, he is probably right. If that is so, and if provision were made for a general power to assist industry—and so set it apart, as the 2 pence rate was in Section 137—then it would concern only those areas, such as Tyne and Wear, and others, that are spending up to the product of a 2p rate, or sometimes even more because of their own local Acts, which will disappear. if the power is restricted to industrial activity and growth, I cannot see it being used other than for the right purposes.
In a mixed economy, which we have, partnership between the public sector and the private sector is vital and mutually advantageous. Indeed, many local authorities employ people seconded from the private sector to help with the organisation and the business problems and whatever arises from them. I believe that opportunities will be lost if the Government persist in the counter-productive parsimony which is laid out in the Answer—they should be doing everything they can to revitalise industry and increase employment—and areas of very high unemployment will find things very difficult.
I wish to turn to another point which has not so far been mentioned. I am concerned about the limit of 25 workers. In some areas, particulary some development areas, much bigger firms have been set up, employing many more people, and in such instances the limit could be very restrictive. Obviously, it is not restrictive for small businesses, but it could be very restrictive for the not-so-small businesses and certainly for medium-size businesses. I hope that this does not mean—though I fear that many local authorities and the local authority associations will think it does mean—that the Government are basically against local authority participation in industry and commerce and are, therefore, squeezing it hard, rather than succouring it. I
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hope that the Minister can satisfy me on that point. But at the moment I feel very doubtful about the result of the Question for Written Answer.
8.25 p.m.
Lord Spens: My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, for raising this matter. This is a very timely moment to do so. However, before going on to the Question itself, I want to make a very brief plea to the noble Lord the Minister. This morning there was a meeting, unfortunately not very well attended, of our Small Businesses Group, and we were addressed by a banker, who gave us some very interesting figures. He said something which surprised me enormously. It was that 90 per cent. of the total value of loans made by banks for businesses were now being made for businesses with fewer than 200 employees. That is a very interesting fact.
He went on to talk about the loan guarantee scheme. He explained it to us, and said that it was of great benefit, but he remarked how expensive it was. He worked it out in the following way. His bank's base rate is 14 per cent. and they always add to that 2½ per cent. for their loans. The Government then add a 3 per cent. surcharge, and that brings the interest charge to almost 20 per cent., which is far too expensive for small businesses to become involved with. My plea to the Minister is: cannot the 3 per cent. surcharge be reduced? I appreciate that he cannot give an answer to that this evening, but will he pass on to his colleagues the view that the 3 per cent. surcharge on the loan guarantee scheme is very expensive?
I believe that the local authorities should play a vital part in the battle against unemployment by helping to stimulate the creation of more jobs within their areas. They can do this in three ways. We have heard about premises. I should like to see local authorities acting as local catalysts. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, was on to that point and I shall develop it in a moment. As the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, said, much can be done by bringing businesses and local authorities together.
I should like to relate an experience of mine last August. I was invited to go down to Taunton, where the Somerset County Council held a one-day seminar, the object of which was to interest local large businesses in the problems of the smaller businesses. What excited me about the seminar was that it was attended by representatives not only of large businesses and some smaller businesses, but also of other local authorities from the neighbouring counties. Wiltshire, Devonshire, and I believe even Cornwall, sent representatives.
One point that emerged from the seminar had been put by a local large businessman. He said that not until he had made some preparations for the meeting had he realised how and where his own firm made its purchases. He said that, with his business being in Devonshire, he was quite horrified to find that the nearest "local" purchases it made were from South Wales. We should put across to all larger businesses the point that they should help smaller businesses by purchasing locally to the extent that they can. It is a point which I think the local authorities are best placed to make, so I hope that local authorities are not going to be squeezed out of their roles.

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We have spoken about premises, but there is one aspect of premises which has not been mentioned—and premises are, I believe, almost the top priority for local authority operations. The aspect which has not been mentioned is the question of change of use of existing premises. I should like to ask the Minister what has been the effect, if he knows it, of a planning circular which was sent out at the end of, I think, December 1980, which recommended local planning authorities to relax their existing rules and regulations as much as they could to enable change of use of existing premises to be accepted when a new small business was beginning. That, I think, should also include a change of use in relation to a house, so that the new small businessman, provided that there are no problems of smells, noise, and things like that, to affect his neighbours, can in fact work from his own home. I think that would be of great help.
Now as catalysts. I believe there are very large numbers of people in the country who have a whole lot of good will and want to help in solving our unemployment problem; but they do not know how and they do not know where. I believe they have to be got at by local catalysts, and I would have thought that the local authority was the body most able to do that. So I was very disappointed indeed to see the Written Answer which the noble Lord the Minister gave, to be published today, about the product of a 2p rate being reduced to only the product of a ½p rate. On the other hand, I should like the noble Lord to interpret for me, if he can, the provisions of Section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972, because I want to know exactly what can be done under that section.
The Local Government Act has various definitions, one of which is of "principal local authorities". They, naturally, are the larger ones. Another definition is of just "local authorities", and their size goes right down. It says:
"'local authority' means a county council, the Greater London Council, a district council, a London borough council or a parish or community council".
It goes right the way through the whole gamut. Can any of those councils make use of Section 137; and, if so, can that use be cumulative? Can the county council take a 2p rate and the district council take a 2p rate and even the parish council take a 2p rate under that section? I do not know, and 1 should very much like the noble Lord the Minister to give me an answer to that.
I must say that I was very disappointed when I saw the Written Answer; because it was only last November, when I was introducing a debate on getting greater incentives for the expansion of businesses, that I spoke about Section 137 and suggested to the Minister then that the 2p rate should be doubled to 4p. Now, instead of it being doubled it is being quartered. That, my Lords, I think, is very disturbing, but there we are.
8.35 p.m.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, for raising this very important matter this evening. It is right that I should declare an interest as a director of a
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property company which has carried out some small workshop developments. An adjournment debate in the other place on a similar subject was initiated by my honourable friend Mr. Heddle, the Member for Lichfield and Tamworth, on 17th November, but as so often happens time cut short that important debate.
There has been substantial progress in the building of factory workshops for small businesses throughout the country since the Government, in a moment of inspiration, altered the law relating to industrial buildings allowances in March 1980. A more pertinent question is: What has happened to the occupation of these units which many were encouraged to build by Government statements only to find that the cold, depressing hand of the Inland Revenue did not have any of the Government's inspiration? What went wrong? The answer lies principally in the definition of which small businesses qualify for the 100 per cent. industrial buildings allowances; and this was the medium through which the Government wished to encourage people and companies to invest in, and build, small units. I shall deal with that in a little more detail later.
My Lords, it is clear from the information that I have been able to obtain to date that the Government have available precious little information or any relevant data. I recently put down 17 Questions for Written Answer, and was saddened when 10 of the replies were prefaced by the lack of data, or there were no data at all, on a subject of major importance to the restructuring of part of this country's industrial base.
What has happened to the information resulting from a circular sent on 16th November last year by the Department of Industry requesting information on small business units? Replies were required by 4th December, but in one case the letter was not received until 2nd December. Of the 10 companies to whom the letter was sent, only about 50 per cent. were able to receive the benefit of the industrial buildings allowances, and some of the companies had built only a very few small workshops. Although the replies should have provided some information for the Government, I question whether they were sent to the right people, and ask what information they have obtained from individuals, partnerships and small companies who have built so many of these units.
My Lords, what role have the local authorities played in the development of small units? First, they have been able to release land from their substantial land bank, which they will have funded at public expense. They have also been able to "pump prime" a "social" situation, which in investment terms is an unacceptable project. Examples of this were given by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, earlier. In rural areas, where two or three units are being built, they can provide useful assistance. In some instances they have been providing a covenant for the individual occupiers, thus being able to transform the development of a series of small units into a property investment for either an individual or a company, a partnership or a pension fund. This has been extremely helpful, and local authorities must be given due praise for this.
However, for this benefit which they can give they are stung by the Inland Revenue. If, for example, in order to finance a development of small units a local authority agrees to provide an overriding lease of the development in exchange for a profit rent,

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this is assessed as a capital project even though they need not be committing any capital towards the project at all. I was involved in such a case not five miles from here, where the local authority understood that their covenant was needed to obtain the necessary finance for the development. They wanted to give it in order to provide the small units, but could not do so owing to the detrimental effect it would have on their capital budget since they were already involved in three other schemes. In essence, we offered the local authority further revenue with no capital input, but they could not accept it. My Lords, how much more stupid can our legislation become?
There can be difficulties where local authorities wish to build units in their district but where these units could be built by the private sector. There are many instances in London and elsewhere in the country where local authorities either will not release land to private developers or are able to offer the units they build to prospective occupiers with rent and/or rates rebates paid for by the public and with which the private developer cannot compete. Much greater studies are urgently required to see how the local authorities can use their powers to be of maximum benefit in this sector and they must then be encouraged to pursue these avenues.
I turn now to the problems faced by private enterprise who have provided so many of the units—and the dark clouds appear. With regard to some of the remarks by the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, I would say that private enterprise is ready, willing and able to provide units of all sizes. My company is considering a scheme to build units of from 500 square feet upwards. Whether we do it or not will depend much on what the Government will say.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, are they in any prime locations?
The Earl of Caithness: No, my Lords. Investment in small unit workshops was, in most cases and until the change in the industrial buildings allowances regulations in March, 1980, an unacceptable form of investment. The rate of return was no match for most other forms of investment. Much of that has now changed but any small unit proposition must be considered on its merits as a property transaction. For insurance companies it has to stand very stringent analysis to show the right yield and growth potential to satisfy the actuaries; for individuals, partnerships and companies which can receive the benefit of industrial buildings allowances, and depend on this to make any scheme viable, so much depends on being able to let the units on completion.
In order to qualify for this tax relief, they must let the units to what is known as "qualifying" users. This is where the real rub comes, as I mentioned earlier. In the clash between the Government's good idea, the need to create a viable property investment, and the Inland Revenue's restrictive definition of "qualifying" user, the real sufferer is the unemployed. There is an urgent need to create employment in this country, yet the Government have given no good answers as to why so many small units up and down the country are empty and they have yet to admit that the Inland Revenue's definition of "industrial", and, hence, the "qualify
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ing" user is totally archaic and far too restrictive. Industry has been interpreted as being limited to manufacturing use only, but, as noble Lords know, industry has changed and continues to change and update.
Let me give you some examples of the anomolies caused by the present situation. If you are a manufacturing company which also services television and video appliances for the domestic and business sectors you qualify for the 100 per cent. industrial buildings allowances and, therefore, are an acceptable tenant. If you are a television rental company that carries out the same work, with the same potential number of employees in the same surroundings, you do not qualify. That is why one of this country's major television rental companies still requires over 40 small light industrial units. Similarly, if you are a computer manufacturer who wants a unit in which to test and programme your products, you are acceptable; but if you purchase computers and test and programme them without actually manufacturing them you do not qualify. Again an identical job being done in identical surroundings and yet when the industrial buildings allowances is of importance this company will not be offered a unit.
A business which repackages flour was declared by the Inland Revenue to be a non-qualifying user but when it was proved that the business was an agent of the manufacturer then the Inland Revenue changed their minds. My final example is the fiasco of a sports pavilion, complete with all "mod cons" and used by employees of a company in the service section of industry and which qualifies for an industrial buildings allowance although the company does not. Many people are being deprived of opportunities even in these difficult times. My noble friend has, I believe, received a copy of a brief entitled Industrial Buildings Allowances and Small Manufacturing Businesses: an Urgent Case of Legislation prepared by Mr. Grant of Grant and Partners. In that there are examples of an estate in Altrincham where 43 applicants did not qualify for 100 per cent. relief—the industrial buildings allowance —and therefore had to be rejected. My company, Regisland Limited, has built 13 units in Banbury, and of 30 applicants, only seven are qualifying users.
I will briefly state other examples. A company I know has built 95 units and only 46 have been let during the last twelve months. Another company has built 80 units and over 50 per cent. are unlet. From the examples I have just quoted there are possible job opportunities for about 250 people. The most depressing example I have is of a major organisation which has recently built 206 units of which only 60 are let and they are currently building 343 more. The longer these units remain empty, there will be a noticeably increasing air of suspicion in private enterprise about small units and as to whether the Government have any real intention of dealing with the present unsatisfactory position.
There are many more examples but perhaps most noteworthy is the evidence from those pension funds where the IBA relief cannot be claimed. The evidence I have been able to obtain indicates that on average over 70 per cent. of the units are occupied by non-qualifying users. In each case that I have investigated where the industrial buildings allowances were of importance I was informed that, in all probability, not only would all the units which are standing empty at the moment have

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been let months ago, but the same company would have built more small unit workshops up and down the country. I can only leave the Government to speculate on the good that this would have done to employment and the British economy. The "qualifying" user must be extended to encompass all the industries within Use Classes III, IV and X.
Lastly, I turn to the inevitable question of time. The Government introduced the encouragement for industrial buildings allowances in March, 1980 and the regulations were to run for a period of three years. It is now mid-February 1982 and the regulations expire in 13 months' time. We have received no indication from the Government at all as to what they intend to do about this matter. They have made a very brief reference to it in the Green Paper on corporation tax, but, by the time that that is considered it will be too late. In reality, we have approximately three months left for a firm decision from the Government, because if during that time we do not receive that firm commitment, the private enterprise section will not build any more small units, and the reason is simple.
Let us work back from March, 1983. We want the buildings ready at least a month before that date in order to let the first unit in order to qualify for the industrial building allowances. That brings us back to February 1983. We need seven months to build the units. That takes us to early August this year. We need a further three months to complete the purchase of the site and obtain planning permission and that brings us to May. As I said, we have barely three months left.
Is this Government, of all Governments, going to throw away what was a fine idea by the pursuance of out-dated definitions, thus strangling many employment opportunities? Judged by the number of empty units, there is employment potential for many thousands of people in small units that are already built and standing empty. I believe that, with a sensible interpretation of a "qualifying" user, this position will be greatly helped and will motivate much more development of this nature and which the country badly needs—indeed what the Government want.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's "World this Weekend" programme on 6th January, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister spoke of how she saw much growth in the service industries where there is plenty of scope for the small, the new and the young. She dwelt on the Government's determination to help small businesses and she promised more help.
I know of one county council which has already cancelled two proposed schemes due to the difficulties and wastage of everybody's time in dealing with the Inland Revenue on the question of qualifying users; and thus failure of their existing scheme. To do nothing courts disaster; to fail to review the position now means that virtually no more units will be built. I am sorry to have taken so much time, but we need the Government to act now in order to substantiate their good idea.
8.49 p.m.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, will allow me, I should like to respond quickly to the last comments made. I think it would be unfortuuate if the mass of things that the Government are doing to help small businesses—something to
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which the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, was gracious enough to pay tribute in his remarks—was to be obstructed by the points that my noble friend makes. I promise that all he has said will be read carefully. I will touch on some of those points before I finish. All that he said will be considered to see what one can do to help. I repeat that it would be unfortunate if they were to obscure all the many good things. No Government have ever done what this Government have done, and continue to do, and intend to do and will go on doing regarding small businesses.
May I say at once how very pleased I was that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, brought forward this matter at this time. I thank him for his initiative in doing that. I have perhaps more knowledge than some when I say that I pay tribute to what he has done personally and indeed what he does for Telford. They are very fortunate to have someone like him as the chairman of their new town. One would have to congratulate him on their achievements. The record that he read out is so impressive that one could not help but feel, as he does, a certain pride that that can be done. It reflects on all of us that it is there.
I listened with much interest to what noble Lords have said. I was going to say "in this short debate". However, "short debate" should be in inverted commas! I am sure that your Lordships will want me to answer as widely as I can, so perhaps I had better speak quickly. I welcome this opportunity, and first of all we have obviously roamed much further afield than the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, originally intended, but it invariably goes like that. The topics are very important. They tend to be linked closely together.
Let me put on record at the outset that the Department of Industry, through the English Industrial Estates Corporation, the Welsh and Scottish Development Agencies, the Highland and Islands Development Board and the Development Board for Rural Wales are all active in providing workshop units. However, bearing in mind the terms of Lord Northfield's Question, I propose to concentrate on those areas of activity that are the concern of the department in which I serve.
Let me begin with the role of local authorities, both in providing small workshops and in relation to industry and commerce generally. I think it is helpful to recall that local authorities in England and Wales have for many years had powers under the Local Authorities (Land) Act 1963 to prepare sites and build industrial premises, whether for sale or rent. They are also able, under the same powers, to make loans to firms wishing to buy or rent local authority sites or premises. Similar powers are available in Scotland.
Full records of the activity of local authorities in this sphere are not available on a nationwide basis, but we do know of many local authorities actively involved in the provision of industrial sites and premises. One of the Government's major concerns is to improve the climate in which small businesses operate and to encourage their expansion.
I am very tempted at this stage to depart from my brief here, because I personally am so involved, through the inner city programme and the Urban Programme generally, that I know a great deal of what is being done by local authorities in this connection. It is frankly very encouraging to see. There are for example through the Urban Programme some 250 schemes—

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and I am only sorry I cannot tell the House what that represents in terms of units—being funded to the extent of some £37 million, towards helping authorities with this kind of provision. I know from the programmes that I am apprcving now for next year that this is extending all the time and will continue to do so. We have increased by 29 per cent. the amount of money going to the urban programme in this coming year.
It is not very many schemes or very many programmes of which one can say that in this day and age. It illustrates the Government's commitment to inner cities, and this part of it is a very important one. Indeed, we have asked in guidelines that we have sent out that economic regeneration be the first priority for the spending of urban funds. I am glad to tell the House the response from all the authorities concerned has been to take this up without exception.
If I turn to the broader canvas and the Burns Report which most speakers tonight have touched upon and the Written Answer that I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, I will not go into the background of the Burns Report and how it was set up; but the conclusion is that in reporting to the Secretary of State, the review group put forward five broad options for legislation to rationalise the existing muddle of powers—because it is a muddle of powers. As the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, knows, the Government have reached their provisional conclusions now on what might be a sensible package of powers in England and Wales; Scotland would have equivalent powers.
My right honourable friends have given the Burns Report very careful consideration. They have been at pains to seek the views of all the local authority associations on the very useful analysis it presents of the problem. But it is a question of balancing different legitimate interests. Thus, we recognise the understandable desire of local authorities to encourage the economic development of their areas. On the other hand, we have to ensure that the effect of national inner city and regional industrial policies is not eroded by the competing activities of local authorities outside relatively more disadvantaged areas. There is a danger that firms could be encouraged away from the inner cities and the assisted areas. This would put at risk the Government's inner city and regional policies. I am sure this is not something anybody would wish to see.
Therefore, we propose that all local authorities in England and Wales should have a new general power to assist, in any way they see fit, independent firms employing, as the Answer said, up to 25 people, subject only to an annual limitation on their expenditure of the product of a halfpenny rate. This will replace local Act powers due to expire in 1984, and the use some local authorities have made of Section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972.
These proposals—and I think this is in many ways the answer to many points which were raised earlier—will shortly be the subject of a consultation paper. That will in no way reduce the powers of local authorities to build factory workshops. Indeed, as part of the package, their Local Authority (Land) Act powers, under which they build factories, would be slightly widened, to increase from 75 per cent. to 90 per cent. the maximum loans permitted; to allow loans to cover the cost of lease or purchase of land and any work on
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land; and to remove the present restriction which prevents loans for development on land not sold or let by the local authority. These powers are not subject to a specific expenditure limit.
The Government have been very conscious that the present pattern of powers is illogical and confusing and that they have led many local authorities to come to this House to seek local powers, often of a far-reaching nature. The Government feel that the accretion of powers in this fashion can lead to the creation of unwarranted imbalances between local authorities. I hope that noble Lords will agree with me that the new package of proposals—whatever else one might think about certain aspects of them, which I will mention in a moment—represents a much more rational distribution of powers. Within the constraints imposed by public expenditure policy, and the need to protect the national priorities embodied in regional policy and inner city policy, local authorities will have very much wider scope, both to provide the necessary infrastructure for future private investment and to give direct help to small locally based firms where they are convinced on their own judgment that it is a worthwhile investment for the firm itself, and the locality as a whole.
If I could speak to one or two of the observations that were made on this matter of the Written Answer, I would want to stress again that the proposals arc for the rationalisation of the existing powers: they are certainly not for a reduction, although the Government have to bear in mind their obligations within the European Community. I think it has been common ground for some time that more order needed to be brought to this muddle. So far as we can judge, very few local authorities spend up to their theoretical Section 137 limit on assistance to industry alone. I understand that many authorities are reluctant to use it at all for that purpose because of doubts of its applicability. Unless they have local act powers they are confined to what they can do under the Local Authority (Land) Act 1963.
Of course, we shall pay great attention to what all the local authorities and other interests say in the consultation process, but I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield—he has not had much chance to see it really, has he?—that I wonder whether he has given quite as much allowance as he might to the positive aspects of our proposals. I hope that on reflection he will study them carefully. Indeed, I am sure he will.
May I also say that we are extending the powers under the 1963 Act—something which he specifically mentioned earlier. This applies to all authorities in England and Wales and will continue to do so without monetary limits. Secondly, the new ½p power we are proposing will be solely for assistance to industry, of a type not covered by the 1963 Act.
Thirdly, in the case of the 48 designated inner area districts, where so many of the worst problems are found and which are not confined to the assisted areas, they will get the new powers as well as their powers under the Inner Urban Areas Act, and under Section 137.
Lord Northfield: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? Does he realise the importance of the Section 137 2p possibility? Take an area that gets

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no assistance—there are many examples of them now where there is unemployment up to 20 per cent. They have nothing to offer compared with the assisted areas and they need the power to use something equivalent to the Section 137 2p or equivalent to what the inner urban areas are getting. Yet under this Act areas like that, with so little to offer and unexpectedly high rates of unemployment, may find themselves utterly disadvantaged by what is being proposed.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I really do not think that is so but, as I said, the proposal is for a consultation paper and I am quite sure the noble Lord will make his observations known. I assure him also that his observations will be studied very carefully in the light of his great experience in this matter.
As to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, and which was made also by other speakets, regarding the 2p and the ½p, I say at once that we do indeed need to have regard to the necessary limitation of public expenditure—and I certainly make no apology for that—even for very desirable activities like this, because ultimately public sector resources are made available at the expense of the private sector. We must not forget that local authorities are very much the minor partners to industry. The major share of the burden, quite rightly, is borne by the Government's regional industrial policy.
May I also remind the noble Baroness that my answer referred to the danger rather than the damage—it is precisely to avoid such damage that we are proposing the particular pattern of powers we are putting forward. But without going into cases, I am sure your Lordships will be aware of the ambitious ideas being debated in some areas and I am absolutely sure there is a need to keep a firm sense of proportion. That is what we are trying to do. The noble Baroness mentioned Tyne and Wear—an area that I know very well because I chair a partnership there, and indeed I go to all the four programme authorities there. Of course, they will retain their Section 137 and their inner urban area powers as well, so in fact they will not have any cause to complain as to that.
The noble Baroness asked: was this the final figure? Was this the end of the day? Was this it? Obviously she knows that I cannot give any categorical answers. We have produced a package of powers which we think is reasonable and which we think will enable local authorities to help without upsetting other national objectives. I say yet again that we are issuing a consultation paper and we shall study with great care all that is said on that. But, frankly, if we had not thought the ½p was right we would not have put it forward. For now, I would not want to say any more on that.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister; it is late and we all want to go home—but I want to get this clear. Will the figures be in the consultation paper as a vehicle for consultation or are the figures firm? I am not talking about rationalisation; I am talking about the ½p and the limiting to firms of 25p.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, these are the proposals. They are coming forward in the form of a consultation
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paper, as I said. The noble Baroness surely cannot expect me to say: "This is just someone's idea". It has been thought through; it has been considered in the context of the totality of everything else; and clearly it is the intention to do that. If we were to put a consultation paper forward without paying heed to what was said, it would not be a consultation paper. That is as far as I can go on that now.
I am trying to press on as much as I can, although it is rather difficult with this very wide subject, as it has become. The noble Lord, Lord Northfield, specifically asked whether I was satisfied about the position as to capital controls for local authorities. I will not go over what is contained in the 1980 Act, much as I would love to, regarding that; but I think it would be fair to say that the authorities really do have scope now that they have never had before in deciding their own priorities. There are five service blocks that make up the aggregate of what they can spend. There are also so many other options open to them by way of tolerance at the end of the year, varying from authority to authority—a whole host of other options that were never there before.
I ought to say also that it is a fact that local authorities today—and I use the term carefully—are awash with capital receipts. There are hundreds of millions of pounds, from the sales of council houses, certainly, and other assets; and I would not give this figure if I was not aware that it is a fact. It may be an opportunity—I see that the noble Lord raises his eyebrows, because he sees an opportunity—and why not, indeed? But it is a fact, and I am sure that it is something which will come out again later.
I come to the progress by the development commission in providing small factory units. As the noble Lord said, he was chairman of the commission between 1974 and 1980, and so speaks with authority and a great deal of knowledge on the subject. It was, in fact, during his term of office that the development commission's factory building programme really got off the ground.
Factory building is one of the most important forms of assistance provided by the commission. The programme is aimed at encouraging small firms to set up or expand in those parts of rural England with the most severe economic and social problems. I should like to emphasise the word "small". We are talking about factories ranging in size from 1,000 sq. ft. to 5,000 sq. ft. It is exceptional for the commission to provide factories larger than this, though I understand that they have done so on the odd occasion. So far as jobs are concerned, we are talking in terms of a handful in the smaller units and up to about 20 or so in the larger ones. So that is the scale of the operation.
As I indicated earlier, it is only in the past five or six years that the commission's factory programme has blossomed. The noble Lord asked me for some statistics, which I am glad to give. To date, some 1,250 units—I think he talked about 1,000—comprising about 2,800,000 sq. ft. have been approved, of which 529 units comprising about 1,400,000 sq. ft. have been completed —365 in the past three years. It is very interesting to note that 413 of the completed units have been let, and many of those unlet are the subject of inquiries. It is expected that the units which have already been completed will provide about 5,500 jobs.

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This is not the whole story. In addition to the main factory programme, COSIRA has also developed a small workshop programme in some of the smaller rural areas of need outside the special investment areas. These range in size from about 500 sq. ft. to 1,600 sq. ft. About 50 of these have been built and let in the past three years, and others are in the pipeline. Before I leave this point, I again pay tribute to the role of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield. I should also like to pay tribute to the current chairman of the commission, Nigel Vinson, for all that he and Lord Northfield have done to help the rural communities concerned. It is also proper for me to mention that there are other noble friends and noble Lords who are directly involved in the work of the commission and COSIRA; namely, my noble friends Lord Montagu and Lord Shuttleworth, and the noble Lord, Lord Whaddon, to whom I also pay tribute.
Quite a bit was said about the activities of local enterprise trusts. I wish I were beginning this speech, because I should like to talk only about them. They also happen to be one of my duties within the department. The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, referred to the leaflet he had from Camden, and I should like to tell him that I could produce very many more. I know he will be pleased to hear that. He talked about the programme "Be Your Own Boss". I can tell him that
I opened a "Be Your Own Boss" seminar in Huddersfield. They charged for admission, yet it was so over-sold that they had to turn people away. It was very impressive indeed and it was packed out, no less, on a Saturday morning. It was a great success in Huddersfield. As the noble Lord said, wherever these seminars are held—and he mentioned one in Camden—they are invariably over-sold. Everyone wants to know about them, which is encouraging.
I almost do not know where to begin in talking about what is being done in this field. I myself have helped to start up a number of these enterprise agencies.
I have spoken in places as far apart as the Hartlepools, Leeds and Calderdale, and Manchester is to come. Perhaps best known among the cognoscenti, I think it is fair to say, are St. Helens, London and Birmingham. I had better not mention any more, because I shall miss some that I ought to mention. But there are now over 40 which are very active, and there are many more on the stocks.
At a conference that we had nine months ago in London, over 100 agencies turned up to talk about this field. And what are they all doing? They are all seeking to give help, guidance and advice to those who want to set up their own small business, to those who are already in business and who need help and—what I believe is so important—to cover the after-care aspect. It is not enough just to start somebody going. Who is going to watch them in the difficult second and third years, when the initial cash that they thought would be there may not be there? Agencies of the kind I have mentioned are doing that.
Tribute must be paid to many of the large firms in the country who are making available "secondees" —men of calibre and ability who are going in to do this kind of work. This is due to the great public spiritedness of many of the larger companies like Marks and Spencer, Pilkingtons, ICI. Again I had better stop mentioning names, because many more companies are
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doing a fine job in this respect and I am glad to be able to mention it here tonight. The noble Lord mentioned other schemes: for instance, the innovation centres in places like Hull where the Government are also helping with funds. This is a centre where all the skills are brought together in one spot and where people can make use of them. This is an advance. If nothing else, I hope that it indicates real interest—I will not say for the first time, because then I may be making a point which I do not want to make. But it is interest of a kind which we have never had before. What it will produce at the end of the day remains to be seen, but many of us think that it will produce a great deal.
If I may turn from my brief and deal with one or two other observations which have been made, my noble friend Lord Mottistone is anxious about the local authority role and wonders whether the Government are as enthusiastic as we ought to be. Can I say to him that we are enthusiastic. I personally have discussed with many authorities making available funds to help them to regenerate the economy and help small businesses. I can assure my noble friend that we are, indeed, enthusiastic. My noble friend also asked me about the Inland Revenue forms. It is not for me to say anything about that matter. However, I understand that although a substantial package is issued to each prospective new employer, much of it consists of explanatory literature. Knowing my noble friend as I do, I am sure that he will not let it go at that. Nor should he. But that is all right.
As to the effect of the planning circular, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Spens, that as yet it is a little early to be able to say what has come from it. If, however, I am able to obtain quickly any useful statistics I will write to the noble Lord. His final observation was that the 2p, reduced to ½p, was one-quarter of the help we were giving. As a result of what I have said, I hope he will feel that this is not so. I have to say to him in any case that the 2p is for all spending not authorised by specific Acts, whereas the ½p is for industry only. May I finally say to the noble Lord that his interpretation of Section 137 is, I think, right. However, I should like to check that—it is important that I should—and write to him.
That is all I have to say. Again may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, for raising this subject. My only complaint to him, as I have come to realise while listening to the debate, is that it has broadened out into so many areas, all of which are themselves worthy of a debate. Would that there were sufficient time.

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