Sitting of 1 February 1982

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  TRADE

    Film Industry
    Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make a statement on the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the film industry.
    The Minister for Consumer Affairs (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim): Before replying to the hon. Member I shall, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, tell the House that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade has asked me to express his regret that a long-standing overseas visit prevents his attendance here today.
    We recognise the value of a healthy British film industry. I am pleased to say that studio bookings are reported to be well up on last year, and it is clear that the Americans, in particular, are realising that costs in British studios now compare very favourably with those in the United States. As with all other industries, keeping costs under control is the key to improving international competitiveness, preserving existing jobs and creating new ones, and to the health of the whole industry.
    Mr. Dormand: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the huge cut made by the Arts Council in its annual grant to
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    its film making division, and the Government's action of disbanding the Central Office of Information, are, for film makers, two further examples of the indifference of the Government to the British film industry?
    Is there any truth in the rumour that the interim action committee on the film industry is to be wound up? If so, will she take some action at long last to set up a British film authority with real teeth, to ensure the continuance of a strong, healthy British film industry?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I cannot reply to two of the hon. Gentleman's three questions. His first question requires an answer by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts, and I cannot answer the second as I do not normally reply to questions on rumours.
    The disbanding of the Central Office of Information does not greatly affect the British film industry. There is every reason for optimism in the industry at present, because of the increased bookings and competitive costs of our studios. That must be fully exploited by the industry if more films are to be made in Britain.
    Far from denigrating the industry, I take this opportunity to pay a tribute to what it has achieved with regard to technical skills, reduction of costs and the successful films that it has made over the past year.
    The hon. Gentleman referred to a rumour about the IAC. Certainly the amalgamation between it and the CFC is being considered, but no final conclusion has been drawn, and the fullest possible consultations are taking place with a view ultimately to having something that will be of the greatest value to the film industry.
    Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must make more rapid progress.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Just how successful is the British film industry? Will my right hon. Friend give some examples of recent progress?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I reiterate to my hon. Friend that costs in British studios are substantially lower than those in the United States. This is the type of opportunity for

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    which we have been looking for the film industry. If exploited to the full it could lead to many more films being made in Britain.
    Mr. John Smith: Is the Minister aware that the British film industry offers an opportunity for the considerable artistic and intellectual genius of this country to be turned into a successful and profitable exporting industry? Will the right hon. Lady undertake to consider, much more carefully than the Government have hitherto done, the creation of a British film authority to give substantial Government support to the industry?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Without wishing to denigrate the artistic levels of the British film industry, which I believe to be considerable and of international repute, I must point out that those are matters for my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts. I deal with the more mundane side of the industry—the trade side by which it functions. On that basis there is room for considerable optimism.

    Shoe Exports
    Mr. Michael Morrisasked the Secretary of State for Trade what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the French Government's proposal to restrict the import of British shoes into France.
    The Minister for Trade (Mr. Peter Rees): The Government are much concerned at reports of possible measures designed to restrict imports of footwear and certain other products, both from countries of the Community and elsewhere. At the meeting of the Council, which I attended in Brussels last Tuesday, I expressed such concern, as did representatives of many other Community Governments. The European Commission is considering the proposals of the French Government, which have been disclosed to it, to see how far they may be in conflict with Community law.
    Mr. Morris: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that his clear stance is greatly welcomed by footwear manufacturers? If the matter arises again will he tell the French that they are traditional markets for exports of more than £5 million, and that British manufacturers have invested millions of pounds in distribution in those markets?
    Mr. Rees: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his opening remarks. We are aware not only of the current difficulties of the footwear industry but of its creditable export record. We shall keep a close eye on markets in France and elsewhere.
    Mr. Hoyle: Does the Minister agree that if the French get away with their attitude towards the footwear industry, we could make the same case for our textile, car and electronics industries, which are being badly damaged by imports from the Common Market? Should we not adopt the same attitude as the French?
    Mr. Rees: The hon. Gentleman is premature in assuming that all reports in the press are necessarily accurate. As I said earlier, the matter is before the Commission, which is being pressed to examine the proposals closely. Indeed, the French have been pressed to disclose exactly what they have in mind. Until the Commission reports, we should not take too gloomy a view.
    Mr. Marlow: Since the French have been lavishing money and protection on their footwear industry, since the Italians have introduced import deposits against British exports of footwear to Italy, which has a massive balance of trade surplus with Britain in footwear, since last year the British taxpayer had to plough £500 million net into the Community, and since we have to buy European food at several times the world market price, will my hon. and learned Friend tell workers and their families in the footwear industry in Northampton what benefit they are getting from the present monstrosity of the Common Market?
    Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend is aware that the import deposit scheme, which the Government certainly regret, expires in a few months' time. He should await the Commission's report on the proposals, when those are known, to determine whether any of them conflict with the fundamental principles of the Community, which point to free trade in the internal market for British exports. It would be premature to draw the rather gloomy and slightly prejudiced conclusions of my hon. Friend.

    Consumer Committees
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will now make provision for the introduction of local energy consumer committees with the responsibility to advise and assist consumers with electricity, gas and solid fuel problems.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: We shall decide what changes are needed in the arrangements for improving the representation of consumer interests in the energy sector, and in other nationalised industries, following completion of the consultations on the Nationalised Industries' Consumer Council reform, which started before Christmas following the publication of our consultative document, which so far has had a favourable response.
    Mr. Roberts: Will the Minister at least accept that there is a need to strengthen the energy consumer's voice? Are not many of the problems common to the various forms of energy? Is there not a need to strengthen the services available to consumers of solid fuel? Despite the work already carried out by the Solid Fuel Advisory Service and the approved coal merchant scheme, is there not a need for a consumer voice at local level?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: As the hon. Gentleman is aware from my previous remarks, I am especially concerned that the consumers of nationalised industries' goods and services should have adequate protection, as they are often dissatisfied. They are dealing in an area where there is no choice because there is no competition.
    On the question of energy consumer councils, one option in the consultative document is to make a stronger energy "poly-NICC" at regional and local levels, which would take account of domestic coal consumers. However, there is no evidence that the market for domestic coal consumers is large enough to warrant any increase in that area before the consultations have been completed.
    Mr. John Smith: Will the Minister bear in mind that her proposals give no opportunity for consumers to comment on prices? She knows that the Government are forcing the gas industry to increase prices by 10 per cent.

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    above the rate of inflation. Is it not clear that consumers need protecting from the Government? Does the right hon. Lady approve of that price increase?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would know already that the Government's actions under the Competition Act 1980, especially section 11 references, had the objective of finding out what aspects of costs in relation to prices were justified, especially in the area of efficiency. The reports that we have received so far show clearly that there are areas where improvements can be sought. The consumers have the right to know about the costs that are reflected in the prices. The nationalised industries concerned must mend their ways.

    Building Societies Association
    Mr. Squireasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether the review of the restrictive trade practices of the Building Societies Association has yet been completed.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: This is a matter for the Director General of Fair Trading. I understand that some of the association's recommendations are still the subject of discussion.
    Mr. Squire: I thank my right hon. Friend for the interim nature of her reply. Is she satisfied with the monitoring of the BSA-Office of Fair Trading agreements, especially the choice of insurance company, which, in practice, a number of building societies still do not grant? Does she agree with the National Consumer Council report that few members have any influence on the way in which their building societies operate?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I have a considerable amount of sympathy with the first half of my hon. Friend's question. I hope that the practice of nomination of insurance companies will no longer continue. Following discussions last year between the Director General of Fair Trading and the BSA, the association no longer recommends that borrowers should insure their properties through an agency of the building society. The Director General says that he is satisfied that if the building societies follow the association's recommendation, complaints about the freedom of borrowers to choose an insurance company should no longer arise. I assure my hon. Friend that the position is being carefully monitored.
    Mr. Weetch: Is the Minister aware that many restrictive practices arise because building society boards of directors are self-perpetuating, anti-democratic bodies? Is she further aware that many of those boards—that of the Anglia building society being a flagrant example—seek to prevent new blood from joining them? Will she press her right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to introduce primary legislation to eradicate some of the abuses?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Self-perpetuating, anti-democratic organisations have no place in my good books. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular practice in mind—I am sure that he is raising a serious point—he should draw the matter to the attention of the Director General. I should be grateful to see a copy of his letter.
    Mr. Jessel: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some building societies are not complying with the recommendations of their association? Is it not utterly wrong that
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    a person with a mortgage should be forced by a building society to insure his house with an organisation that may not give him the best value possible? Will she strongly support any measures by the Director General of Fair Trading to stop that practice for once and for all?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Yes, that practice is wrong. Yes, I shall strongly support measures taken by the Director General. If my hon. Friend knows of specific examples, I hope that he will bring them to the Director General's attention.
    Mr. John Fraser: My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Weetch) possibly had in mind the fact that directors of building societies find it easier to garner the votes of investors than do those who enter from outside. Will she consider that aspect?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Yes.

    London (Airports)
    Mr. Haselhurstasked the Secretary of State for Trade how many passengers used London's airports in 1981 in comparison with 1980; and how many air traffic movements were involved.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. lain Sproat): In 1981 the four London area airports, Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted, handled 39,382,030 terminal passengers and 404,717 air transport movements. The corresponding figures for 1980 were 39,553,508 terminal passengers and 430,531 air transport movements.
    Mr. Haselhurst: Do not those figures, especially when taken together with the forecasts for the future scale of passenger traffic—and taken also with the introduction of larger aircraft—cast considerable doubt on the proposition that there will be a shortfall in capacity at those airports by 1987?
    Mr. Sproat: No, Sir. In six of the 12 months traffic in 1981 was higher than in the corresponding months of 1980, indicating a return to growth. However, a comparison of the total figures for the year needs to allow for the effects of the air traffic control strike in May and June and the bad weather in December. In any case, I ask my hon. Friend to reflect that it would be a poor idea to base long-term forecasts merely on one year's figures.
    Mr. Coleman: The Minister mentioned Gatwick airport. Has he any information concerning a second terminal at Gatwick? Has he had any reports of the situation at Gatwick airport on 3 January this year, when chaos reigned because of the inadequate facilities?
    Mr. Sproat: The representations for which we asked, following the new traffic forecasts, are now being considered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. We shall announce conclusions very shortly.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most significant statistics is that there is no tendency for air traffic to Stansted to grow, which seems to indicate that airline operators are not particularly keen to use that airport, whereas there is every propensity for air traffic movements at Heathrow to grow, so that the need there is for good terminal and passenger handling facilities?
    Mr. Sproat: I hear what my hon. Friend says but, as the matter is currently before the inspector at Stansted, it would be improper for me to comment.
    Mr. Clinton Davis: Does the Minister agree that it is most undesirable for the House to substitute itself for the inquiry at Stansted? Is it not equally dangerous to accept the sort of advice that has been given by the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst), who is, of course, leading an anti-Stansted campaign? Does the Minister agree that for Britain to restrict airport development at this stage could lead to the very dangerous position of allowing Amsterdam to become London's third airport—something that this country ought not to contemplate?
    Mr. Sproat: My agreement in principle with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question prevents me from commenting on the second part.

    European Community (Trade Mark Office)
    Mr. Robert Sheldonasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether any decision has yet been reached on the siting of the European Economic Community's trade mark office.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Reginald Eyre): The Council of Ministers will in due course decide where the European Community trade mark office should be located. Four member States, including the United Kingdom, have formally offered to receive the office. The United Kingdom proposed London over eight years ago and has recently reminded the Community of its bid by widely distributing a brochure which the Government produced jointly with the Greater London Council.
    Mr. Sheldon: Is it not clear that the site of London was proposed in 1973 and has not been seriously looked at since? Is it not also clear that Manchester, with its long history of trade mark registry, going back to the early days of the cotton industry, is superbly well qualified to receive the office? Does the Minister agree that Manchester, with its communications and its many other advantages, is mirrored only by Munich and other regional centres in the Community in attracting certain offices? Why have we not impressed strongly on the EEC the need to locate such offices in Britain?
    Mr. Eyre: The right hon. Gentleman is right in saying that the bid was made originally in 1973. It was confirmed by successive Governments thereafter, in particular in 1978 and 1980. I have regularly given my support to regional projects and would gladly do so now if I thought that they would succeed, but the plain truth is that the competition from other European Community countries is so intense that I believe we can succeed only by putting forward our strongest contender. That must be London, which has by far the highest concentration of professional expertise in Britain—10 times greater than Manchester. The convenience for world-wide access cannot be matched by any other centre in Britain.
    Mr. Dykes: Is my hon. Friend aware that there will be great support for his argument in favour of London? Will he confirm that the three examples given in the brochure are examples only of possible locations? Will he look carefully at the possibility of locating the office—if we get it—in other parts of London, including the London borough of Harrow, which has a very strong case?
    Mr. Eyre: I should like to emphasise the tremendous importance to the United Kingdom of being successful in the bid to secure the European Community trade mark office, otherwise there will be a danger of a drift of industrial property work away from the United Kingdom, as happened when the European patent office was sited at Munich.
    The sites specified as examples were chosen because of their nearness to the patent office and to Heathrow airport, but any sites in the London area will be given further consideration at a later stage.

    Manufactures
    Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Trade what the total positive or negative balance of trade has been in manufactures with the European Economic Community and the rest of the world, respectively, since the United Kingdom joined the European Economic Community; and if he will express these totals as amounts per day, respectively.
    Mr. Peter Rees: For the period 1973 to 1980 there was a total deficit of about £10 billion with the European Community and a surplus of £34 billion with the rest of the world, £3½ million and £11½ million per day respectively.
    Mr. Taylor: As Britain traditionally always had a surplus in manufacturing trade with the Common Market countries before we became a member, and as since then it has had a deficit of £3½ million per day, does my hon. and learned Friend think it worth while to have a full, independent inquiry into why our trade in manufactures with the EEC has deteriorated so significantly and our trade with the rest of the world improved so significantly, as that must affect a substantial number of jobs in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Rees: To get the problem in perspective, I should perhaps remind the House that Germany is now our biggest export market, and that the Continental countries of the European Community have shown the greatest increase. I do not take the gloomy view that my hon. Friend has just shown, and I see no call for an inquiry at present.
    Mr. Ford: Will the Minister also say what are our trade balances with Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea, Singapore and Malaysia?
    Mr. Rees: Not without notice, I regret to say.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Is it not a fact that, as a proportion of our total trade, our deficit with the EEC is one-third of what it is on the same basis with the United States, and one-twelfth of what it is with Japan?
    Mr. Rees: Yes. Perhaps on this occasion I may give the House some figures. The export-import ratio for manufactures with the EEC is 88 per cent., with the United States 69 per cent., and with Japan 29 per cent. That points the moral.
    Mr. Hoyle: Does the Minister agree that these appalling figures make the case for Britain leaving the EEC, because the bonanza that we were promised has not materialised and shows no sign of materialising in the future?
    Mr. Rees: The hon. Gentleman states his own position, and we know that the party of which he is a distinguished

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    member is making its own calculations on this important issue. Whether its figures on the cost of withdrawal are accurate remains to be seen. This Administration are firmly committed to membership of the EEC.

    Sale of Goods Act
    Mr. Ioan Evansasked the Secretary of State for Trade if Her Majesty's Government will seek to extend the Sale of Goods Act to people who hire goods or have them supplied as part of a service to give them the same protection that other shoppers have.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: As the hon. Member knows, I welcomed the Supply of Goods and Services Bill, which received its Second Reading on 22 January and, in addition, I announced that my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor will be asking the Law Commission to undertake a wide-ranging study of services. The Law Commission will consider whether and how the law should be reinforced further.
    Mr. Evans: As the Government are supporting the Bill introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), which has had its Second Reading, will the Minister, when the Bill becomes law, give publicity to the fact that people receiving services will in the future have the same protection as those purchasing goods?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: A good deal of publicity has already arisen out of the Second Reading debate on the Bill, which I warmly welcomed. When the Bill is enacted I shall examine the case for publicising particularly those parts that will bring new protection under the law to consumers.
    Mr. Squire: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement about the Government's support for the measure? Does she recognise that for certain services, such as plumbing, only registration will protect the consumer over the whole range of services, in addition to selective supply?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I do not recall recognising precisely that. I thought that my recognition was more general. The codification under the law of existing consumer rights will be helpful in pursuing such cases. The future of safety in that industry, which relates back to the gas industry, is the subject of further measures which have been announced for future Sessions by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy.

    Exports (Statistics)
    Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will make it his practice to collect statistics to show the level of exports by the United States of American and other foreign-owned enterprises in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Peter Rees: The information is collected annually in the overseas transactions inquiry and the latest results, which were for 1979, were published in British Business, 3 July 1981, s 447 and 448, a copy of which is in the Library.
    Mr. Grist: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that such figures show the value to Britain of inward investment, which in recent years has come largely as a result of our membership of the EEC, and which would be severely damaged in places such as Wales if we withdrew from the EEC?
    Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend makes a sound point. One knows of the contribution to the Welsh economy of a variety of foreign-controlled companies that have invested recently.
    Mr. Marlow: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that people making investment decisions do so on the basis of whether that decision will be profitable, and not purely on the basis of whether Britain is a member of the EEC? Given that we have a massive deficit in trade in manufactures with the European Common Market, is it not possible that in some areas, at least, our present arrangements with the EEC are disbeneficial to potential investors? [HON. MEMBERS: "Disbeneficial?"]
    Mr. Rees: It is not for me to speculate on the precise motives of those who invest in Wales. I am sure that investors are actuated by calculations of profitability. When considering the profitability of their ventures they must consider whether there is an open market at their doorstep, such as is afforded by the EEC.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: To help the House to examine the significant figures that the Minister has mentioned, will he at some stage make a statement on the net investment in and out of Britain in the five years before our membership of the EEC and the net investment in arid out in the last five years? In that context, is he willing to study the superb summary of the appalling drain of total investment published in the Sunday press yesterday?
    Mr. Rees: I am not aware of any appalling drain. There appears to have been a diversification of portfolio investment, but direct investment has always been possible. It is open to my hon. Friend to table a precise question and if it is directed to me I shall do my best to answer it as faithfully and comprehensively as I can.

    Quality Assurance and Standards Division
    Miss Boothroydasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will increase the recruitment to the quality assurance and standards division with the object of enabling British manufacturers submitting specifications and designs to obtain final approval within six months.
    Miss Sally Oppenheim: The numbers of engineering posts in the national weights and measures laboratory of the metrology, quality assurance, safety and standards division has already been increased with the aim of reaching a decision on new designs of weighing or measuring equipment within a few months of submission. Following a shortage of engineers that led to delays, recruiting to fill the extra posts has been pressed vigorously over the past two and a half years and as a result I hope that the last post will be filled shortly. Furthermore, new examination procedures, agreed with manufacturers, were introduced on 1 January 1982. Among other things, they will help to speed up the approval process.
    Miss Boothroyd: Does the right hon. Lady accept that a delay of two years before a Government Department can examine a specification submitted by industry is an indictment of that Department's proper functioning? Is she aware that delays have had an adverse effect on British manufacturing industry, with losses in productivity, export markets and jobs? May we have a firm assurance for the manufacturing sector that any specification submitted for approval will not be subject to a delay of longer than six months before a ruling is made?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: In reply to a written question by the hon. Member today I have explained that the case that she referred to me and that took two years was not by any means straightforward. The hon. Lady can read why it was not a straightforward case.
    The record already shows a considerable improvement. There is no indictment of the Department in relation to the case which the hon. Lady brought to my attention. A total of 21 cases were awaiting examination, or under examination for final approval, between January and June 1981, and only five between July and December 1981. Already in the last year that there has been a notable improvement. I hope that it will continue.
    Mr. Dickins: Is it not a fact that British goods are not only being delivered on time but are being delivered at the right price? Does my right hon. Friend accept that British goods now reflect an improvement in quality? Does that not mean that the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Miss Boothroyd) was exaggerating the case in relation to quality, because once again British quality is becoming exceptionally good?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: The hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Miss Boothroyd) was referring to a specific case about which we have had considerable correspondence. My hon. Friend is right. Anything that improves the competitive standards of British industry will result in more British goods being sold, not only abroad but at home. That can only be good for industry, jobs and the country.
    Mr. Gwilym Roberts: While I welcome any progress in speeding up the process, may I ask the right hon. Lady to answer the specific question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, West (Miss Boothroyd)? May we have a catagoric guarantee that the process will involve no more than a six-month delay, because that is still of great concern to British industry?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I had hoped to avoid giving a specific answer. I now see no alternative. The firm that the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West referred to me was subject to delay originally because of a shortage of examiners. That delay was common to all patterns in that period.
    The examination began in November 1980, but it was hampered because the equipment did not work properly. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not implying that consumers should be on the receiving end of weighing or measuring equipment which does not work properly. The firm was told that, and meetings with the company were held in March, April and June 1981 to try to resolve the problems. Unfortunately, the equipment had to be rejected as being unsuitable for trade in August 1981. The firm was given the opportunity to resubmit a modified version within three months to avoid further delay. This it did. There have been further problems of performance by the machinery, but the examination should be completed by the end of February.

    Ship Salvage
    Sir William van Straubenezeeasked the Secretary of State for Trade what consideration his Department has given to the problems of current contract practice with regard to the salvage of stricken ships.
    Mr. Sproat: I note the wide use made of the Lloyd's standard form of salvage agreement, under which remuneration is determined after the salvage operation by agreement or arbitration. This minimises the preliminaries to rapid action. I keep under review whether there are lessons to be learnt from individual incidents. The United Kingdom delegation to the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation will play its full part in the coming revision of the 1910 Brussels convention on salvage.
    Sir William van Straubenzee: I appreciate that my hon. Friend cannot comment on the merits of a recent and particularly tragic case involving the loss of life of an entire rescue crew, but if he believes that there is any justification for the view that delay in settling the salvage terms was one of the causes, will he consider in the revision of which he speaks something on the lines of mandatory provisions that would come into effect upon certain basic conditions being satisfied?
    Mr. Sproat: I give my hon. Friend the assurance that the Government will be willing to examine any lesons to be learnt from the inquiries currently being carried out by the RNLI, by my Department and by the Government of the Republic of Ireland. I must, however, inform him that traditional mariner lore believes that the ship's master is the best person to decide whether his ship is in danger.
    Mr. Prescott: In order to establish a successful tow of a stricken vessel, adequate manning is required on a ship. Has the Minister seen the statement of the Irish Minister of Transport to the effect that manning levels in Ireland are the same as those applied by Britain? Does he accept that this applied in the case of the "Union Star" or will he confirm that manning levels required by the Irish are two below what is necessary in Britain? Will the hon. Gentleman point out this fact to the Irish Minister?
    Mr. Sproat: Yes. I read the report in the newspapers to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I shall consider it in the light of the Irish Government's report when it is made available to me.
    Mr. Ginsburg: The Minister has referred to international action. Will he indicate what sort of time scale he envisages? How long will it take before a convention is signed?
    Mr. Sproat: There is to be a meeting in relation to the IMCO agreement in 1984. One or two other matters, I believe, have to be dealt with before that meeting. They will require a fair amount of work by IMCO. I hope, however, that these matters will be settled at the next diplomatic conference in 1984–85.
    Sir Albert Costain: Does the Minister appreciate that this is a significant issue in areas bordering the English Channel and that one of the highest concentrations of shipping in the world is to be found off south-east Kent? Is it possible to have rules applying to ships using this narrow waterway similar to those governing the methods by which ships traverse that area?
    Mr. Sproat: My hon. Friend is right in pointing to the extremely busy, difficult and potentially dangerous nature of the English Channel. When the preliminary inquiry is completed, I shall examine what my hon. Friend says in the light of what the inquiry reveals.
    Mr. Woolmer: The Minister will be aware of the great concern, expressed both at the time and since the "Union Star" and Penlee lifeboat disaster about a number of matters. Will he say when he expects the report of the preliminary inquiry? Will he give an assurance that he will carefully examine the call for a proper public inquiry to investigate the many matters to which reference has been made?
    Mr. Sproat: Yes, Sir. I give that assurance. I hope and, indeed expect, that the inquiry will be completed by the end of this month.

    Tin Imports
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Secretary of State for Trade what is the present cost of imported tin; and how this compares with the figure 12 months previously.
    Mr. Peter Rees: The average cif value of tin imported into the United Kingdom in November 1981 was £8,554 per tonne. The corresponding value for November 1980 was £6,696 per tonne.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the Minister aware of the serious damage caused to pewter manufacturers by these wild fluctuations in the international price of tin'? In the light of what has happened in recent times to both silver and tin prices on the international market, are the Government intending to take no action at all in relation to the supply of essential raw materials for British industry? Are the Government content to allow international speculation to take its course?
    Mr. Rees: I hope that this is a purely temporary phenomenon. On the question of tin, I understand that the London metal exchange, which, as the House knows, is an independent financial market, is conducting an internal investigation into the present situation, which is, perhaps, unattractively described as "backwardation".
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Does the Minister agree that there might be an improved chance of getting a better deal from the International Tin Council if the Government took every step to improve relations with Malaysia, which have deteriorated sharply?
    Mr. Rees: Naturally, the Government regret the momentary diminution of trade with Malaysia. The House will be aware that my right hon. and noble Friend the Foreign Secretary proposes to visit Malaysia in the near future. I have no doubt that he will take the opportunity to raise this problem with the Prime Minister of Malaysia. The high commission in Kuala Lumpur keeps us regularly informed of the situation and about the number of contracts that British firms might have been expected to secure but have not secured.

    British Leyland (Tractor Order)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether there has been any change in the Export Credits Guarantee Department facilities provided in respect of the order by the State of Jos in Nigeria for 1,400 Leyland tractors, manufactured at Bathgate.
    Mr. Peter Rees: It is not the practice to give commercial information about the cover given by the Export Credits Guarantee Department on particular contracts, the details of which are confidential as between the parties.
    Mr. Dalyell: Will the Government consider, if Leyland approaches them, extending cover for this order for tractors, which is desperately needed to keep this factory open until negotiations can take place between the unions and the company?
    Mr. Rees: I am sure that the Export Credits Guarantee Department will take full account of special circumstances that are put to it. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the Export Credits Guarantee Department has to balance its books and views these matters in a commercial light. I shall ensure that any special factors in the mind of the hon. Gentleman are also in the department's mind before any fresh applications are considered.

    British Airways
    Mr. Bowen Wellsasked the Secretary of State for Trade if, in formulating his policy towards aviation, he will take action specifically to improve and protect the position of British Airways.
    Mr. Sproat: I do not intend to protect British Airways from the need to operate competitively. In formulating civil aviation policy, however, the Government will continue to give due weight to the interests of British Airways, as to those of all other British airlines.
    Mr. Wells: Will my hon. Friend list the steps that he proposes to take to return British Airways to profitability, so that it can be sold as a viable, going concern before the end of this Parliament?
    Mr. Sproat: I intend to take very few steps. Those steps should be taken by the board of British Airways. Anything that it does to turn round the profits of British Airways has my full encouragement. I congratulate Sir John King and his board on the trenchant and robust measures that they are taking.
    Mr. Woolmer: Will the Under-Secretary of State give an assurance that there will be no further stripping of profitable routes from British Airways in an attempt to help other airlines? Will he examine, before taking any further decision on British Airways, the experience of the transatlantic air fare war to see whether this is not a major reason for the problems faced by British Airways, along with many other airlines?
    Mr. Sproat: In regard to the so-called war on the North Atlantic, the House should be aware that in 1980 the three British carriers operating on the route out-earned the nine American carriers—a tremendous achievement for the British airline industry, including British Airways. I have no intention of stripping any routes from British Airways at present.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Is my hon. Friend aware that British Airways could save over £1 million a year in fuel costs and greatly enhance safety of the travelling public if duty-free goods, instead of being lugged about on aircaraft, were made available at the point of arrival rather than the point of departure? Will he note that other countries are changing to the practice that I advocate'? Will he discuss the matter with the fuddy-duddies in Her Majesty's Customs and Excise?
    Mr. Sproat: While rejecting the epithets applied by my hon. Friend to Customs and Excise, and without being able to verify on the spot the precise figure that he has given, I shall be happy to look at what my hon. Friend suggests.
    Mr. Clinton Davis: As it is now evident that it cannot be in the national interest to privatise British Airways in the foreseeable future or, indeed, at all, why does not the Minister make his contribution to the future viability of British Airways by undertaking to get rid of the barmy scheme that his predecessor introduced?
    Mr. Sproat: I disagree in gross and in detail with the statement that the hon. Gentleman makes. It remains the Government's intention to privatise British Airways as soon as practicable.
    Mr. McCrindle: Does it remain the Government's position that they are opposed to the disposal of the profitable British Airways subsidiaries, such as the helicopter division?
    Mr. Sproat: So far, the Government have taken the view that it would be best to sell off British Airways, when we do so, as a going concern, as far as possible. British Airways Helicopters has made substantial profits over the past few years, on which it should be congratulated. However, I would not rule out selling subsidiaries at a future date.
    Mr. Woolmer: Will the Secretary of State withdraw the suggestion that he intends to sell off British Airways? Will he confirm that, if he goes ahead with this madcap scheme, which is against all common sense for British Airways, there is no intention to sell more than a minority shareholding?
    Mr. Sproat: No, Sir. I certainly do not intend to confirm that. If the hon. Gentleman prefers the words "privatise" or "denationalise", he may use them.

  OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

    Third World
    Mr. Welshasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's policies on increasing the level of aid given to countries in the Third world.
    Mr. Hardyasked the Lord Privy Seal what increase in United Kingdom support for overseas development has been arranged since the international meeting at Cancun.
    The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Neil Marten): No specific commitments of any kind were asked for or given at Cancun. I announced in the House on 14 December 1981 the level of resources available for aid in 1982–83 and our decision to allow the Commonwealth Development Corporation to borrow funds abroad during the next three years. Plans for aid levels in subsequent years will be published in March.
    Mr. Welsh: Does the Minister appreciate that the spirit of the Cancun agreement was to give aid to the Third world? In accordance with that spirit, and taking into account the Government's expenditure plans for 1981–84, is the Minister aware that during 1981–82 there will be a reduction of £62 million and in 1982–83 a reduction of £61 million, making a total reduction of over £123 million over two years in overseas aid? If that is so—that is what the expenditure plan says—does the Minister accept that he should ask his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor
    16
    of the Exchequer to conform with the spirit of the Cancun agreement and give further aid in his forthcoming Budget in March?
    Mr. Marten: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that was not exactly the spirit of Cancun. At Cancun there was a meeting of minds, and also an understanding of one another's problems. One of the problems, which was understood by the great number of developing countries that were there, was the need for growth in the industrialised world so that it could import more from them, for their own betterment. It was in that context—to get growth going here—that there was a 2 per cent. cut in the aid programme over that which was announced last year.
    Mr. Hardy: Does the Minister agree that the apparent shift in the Government's attitude to the proposals from cool to at least lukewarm, the Government's subscription to the words that were used in the communiqué last October following the Commonwealth Conference, and the Government's public comments about the Mexican summit, were all welcomed and approved by individuals and organisations concerned with international morality and justice? However, does he accept that the Government's words, although they were quite noble, have not been matched by either deed or proposal? When will that sordid anomaly be rectified?
    Mr. Marten: As soon as the economy is strong enough.
    Mr. Butcher: Has my right hon. Friend seen the results of the recent ODA report, showing that about 90 per cent. of British companies feel that they receive very little, if any, benefit from our overseas programme? Will he therefore seek to shift the balance of these programmes away from multilateral agencies back to bilateral agencies, so that such aid may result in British jobs for British workers?
    Mr. Marten: Yes, we would like to shift from multilateral to bilateral aid, but on the multilateral side we are following commitments that were made quite a long time ago and from which we cannot escape. Where we can, we are trying to shift the balance back to bilateral aid. There is also the aid-trade provision, which has helped our industries and kept a lot of jobs going in this country.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Now that the Minister and his colleagues believe that the recession has bottomed out, when can we look forward to the Government increasing the proportion of GNP that is devoted to overseas development assistance, in accordance with our promise to the United Nations?
    Mr. Marten: When the economy is strong enough. It is as simple as that.
    Mr. McElhone: Does the Minister accept that his answer, and that of the Prime Minister last Thursday, is somewhat misleading? Will he at least be honest and confirm that the Government will cut aid in this financial year and next by at least 14 per cent? Does not that make a mockery of the pledges that were given by the Prime Minister at Ottowa, Melbourne and Cancun? Is the Minister further aware that, contrary to what he says about the Cancun pledges, Mrs. Ghandi is calling a conference of 34 nations this month in Delhi to pick up the debris of Cancun, and that Britain is not invited?
    Mr. Marten: When one talks about cutting the aid programme, it depends which figure one is looking at for the cut. The 2 per cent. Cut is to be made from the figure that was announced last year. In answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, the meeting that Mrs. Ghandi is calling is not a North-South meeting, but a South-South meeting. Yugoslavia is there, for example, but she is a member of the group of 77, which is the South group. It is a meeting of the South group, and we are not invited because we are not a member of that group.

    Nicaragua
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Lord Privy Seal what aid projects his Department is currently financing in Nicaragua.
    Mr. Neil Marten: No aid projects are currently being financed in Nicaragua. Total aid expenditure for 1981–82 is expected to be about £30,000 for the supply of two ambulances, training of four students in Costa Rica and a short consultancy visit on grain storage.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the Minister aware that Nicaragua has just emerged from a bloody civil war and badly needs external assistance? Will he assure the House that any specific requests for civil projects will be given a sympathetic hearing?
    Mr. Marten: I realise that Nicaragua is emerging from a very troubled situation. I recognise, too, that it is receiving a lot of help from Cuba. Several thousand Cubans are in the country dealing with agriculture, industry, education, health, internal security, and so on. They follow a doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist line. As we are giving aid to 130 countries, we cannot spread our aid all over the world. There are limits.
    Mr. McNamara: Does the Minister accept that the Nicaraguan Government's request to Her Majesty's Government would fit in with supplying jobs for people in this country, and yet it has been turned down by Her Majesty's Government? If we accept what the Foreign Secretary said about the new direction of British aid policy, how will we make friends and influence people if, when a country emerges from a bloody civil war, we say "You are taking help from Cuba, so you cannot have it from us"? Does the Minister believe that that is the best way to influence a Government?
    Mr. Marten: We made it clear to Nicaragua that Her Majesty's Government cannot provide, for example, credit cover for United Kingdom exports to Nicaragua at previous levels. That decision was taken in accordance with the criteria that the ECGD normally applies to export
    18
    credits. We have had no specific requests, such as for mining machinery, from Nicaragua. We have checked with the Nicaraguan embassy here. It has not surfaced on that one, either.
    Several Hon. Members rose——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to be fair to those right hon. and hon. Members who have questions on the Order Paper.

  Milk Substitutes
  Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make funds available through the bilateral aid programmes to Governments seeking help in the implementation and monitoring of the World Health Organisation code for marketing milk substitutes in developing countries.
  Mr. Neil Marten: As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security said on 3 December, we will give sympathetic consideration to any such requests, within the context of our aid and technical co-operation to the country in question, although the World Health Organisation is best placed to give such help.
  Mr. Barnett: If the right hon. Gentleman has not yet received such a request, which may be what lies behind his reply, does he realise that his attitude is somewhat complacent, in view of the fact that international baby milk companies have been accused—in my view, with some justification—of causing an epidemic of infant malnutrition, sickness and death in North Yemen and similar conditions in other Third world countries? Does he recognise the difficulties that Third world countries have in monitoring and implementing this vital code? Is it not now time for the British Government to take a positive attitude and talk to developing countries positively with a view to seeing whether the World Health Organisation code can be monitored and implemented properly in the Third world to save infant life?
  Mr. Marten: Although I recognise the good spirit behind the question, I should point out that the World Health Organisation is doing the monitoring, is touring round and has offered help to any developing country that needs it to implement the code of practice. However, I feel that with independent sovereign countries we should not go round nannying or wet-nursing. Such a country is fully aware of the code of practice. It must make up its own mind what it wants to do about it. So far no one has asked for our help. If anyone seeks it, we are willing to consider any help.

Westminster Medical School
Mr. David Ennals: I beg to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the announcement of the imminent closure of the department of experimental chemical pathology at the Westminster medical school."
I might add that the matter is a specific and urgent one of national and international importance.
The urgency is twofold. The decision to close this department, which has a worldwide reputation and is probably the most advanced unit in the world in the treatment of vitamin B12 deficiency in children, has only just become public and is due to take effect at the end of next month to gratify the cost-cutting voracity of the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
That the issue is specific and important will be vouched for by paediatricians not only throughout this country but in Europe and the United States of America.
The department did 35,000 pathological tests last year. One example of the view that this is an issue of great importance is the statement by the professor of medicine at the university of Pittsburgh quoted in The Guardian today that he could not believe the news. He said:
"They must have gone mad, since this appears as a most irrational act."
The conditions resulting from B12 deficiency include mental retardation, progressive crippling diseases, blindness and cancer. The unit is a life-saving institution for sick children, and the Department of Health and Social Security must be as concerned about the news as I am and other hon. Members will be.
I hardly need to emphasise the urgent need for the House to debate the imminent closure of a department which has done pioneering work in the past 16 years and where a brilliant research team is now, apparently, about to be declared redundant.
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) gave me notice before 12 noon today that it was his intention to seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing
20
"the announcement of the imminent closure of the department of experimental chemical pathology at the Westminster medical school"
in response to cuts imposed by the Department of Education and Science.
I listened with great concern to what the right hon. Gentleman said, because the House will be in no doubt that he has brought our attention to an important matter.
The right hon. Gentleman is aware, as the House is, that this is not the only way that this matter can be discussed. The House has instructed me under Standing Order 9, whilst taking into account the several factors set out in the order, to give no reasons for my decision.
I listened with special care to the right hon. Gentleman's representations about the proposed closure of this hospital at the end of the next month, but I have to rule that the right hon. Gentleman's submission does not fall within the provisions of Standing Order 9 and, therefore, that I cannot submit his application to the House.
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the importance of this matter, may I ask you whether you have had any representations from the Secretary of State for Education and Science about his coming to the House in order to make a statement?
Mr. Speaker: The answer to that is in the negative.
Mr. Ennals: Shocking.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Mr. Speaker: In order to save the time of the House, I shall put together the two motions relating to Statutory Instruments.
Ordered,
That the draft Social Security (Contributions) (Mariners) Amendment Regulations 1982 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
That the Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Extension) Order 1981 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments.—[Mr.Goodlad.]

Ordered,
That the Stock Transfer Bill be referred to a Second Reading Committee.—[Mr.Goodlad.]

Orders of the Day

  Nuclear Power Programme
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[MR.Goodlad.]
  3.37 pm
  The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Nigel Lawson)rose——
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hope that the House will not think that I want the arrangement any other way, but the Opposition would like the position clarified. Is not it the normal practice for the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), to introduce the report? It may not be. The Opposition simply wish to question it.
  Mr. Speaker: It is not invariably the practice; sometimes it happens, but it is not an invariable custom. The hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd) does not often have such powerful allies pleading his case. What the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) said will not go unnoticed.
  Mr. Lawson: I am sure that the House looks forward with great interest and appreciation to what the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), has to say on this important subject if he has the good fortune to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.
  This is the first occasion during the lifetime of this Parliament that the House has debated the important question of nuclear power. The opportunity for this debate has been provided by the report of the Select Committee on Energy on the Government's nuclear power programme, to which the Government replied in a White Paper some six months ago. The whole House will join me in saying how indebted we are to the Select Committee for the outstanding quality of its report, prepared under the tireless and dedicated chairmanship of my hon. Friend the member for Havant and Waterloo. One reason why this very important matter is not debated more frequently is that, despite all the controversy which surrounds it, there exists within the House a wide measure of agreement irrespective of party.
  Thus, far example, it was my predecessor but one as Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn)—whom I am glad to see in his place—who told the House in 1978 that not only was there a need for nuclear power programme in this country, but:
  "The Government also consider … that … we must develop the option of adopting the PWR system in the early 1980s. … The electricity supply industry has indicated that, to establish the PWR as a valid option, it wishes to declare an intention that … it will order a PWR station … This intention … is endorsed by the Government."—[Official Report, 25 January 1978; Vol. 942, c. 1392.]
  Of course the Select Committee, too, endorsed both the need for a nuclear power programme and the wisdom of establishing an alternative option to the AGR for future orders. I welcome this manifestation of consensus politics.
  Mr. Michael English rose——
  Mr. Lawson: It is a little early in my speech to give way. However, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. English: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman a simple question. I presume that in "consensus" he includes the negative—he means the lack of mention of CANDU as a consensus as well. Is that right?
  Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman need have no fear. I shall mention CANDU later. Sometimes, premature interventions are a little unnecessary.
  As the Government's response to the Energy Committee's report made clear, we see an increasingly important and necessary role for nuclear power in the years ahead. Nuclear power will enable us to make the best use of our limited reserves of fossil fuels, particularly North Sea oil and gas. By reducing our dependence on fossil fuels it offers the prospect of cheaper electricity supplies essential for maintaining United Kingdom competitiveness; and it will enable the fossil fuels to be used increasingly as a feedstock for the petrochemical industry. In other words, it is an essential component of a broadly based energy strategy, whose major objective is the availability of adequate and secure supplies of energy at the lowest practicable cost to the nation. The Government are therefore determined to provide a framework within which the full potential of nuclear power can be realised. We see the need for a strong nuclear industry able to meet the increasing demands which will be placed on it, building safe and reliable plant to time and cost.
  This country, of course, was one of the pioneers of nuclear power, and Calder Hall, which started operating in 1956, was the first nuclear power station in the world. Since then we have had a quarter of a century of nuclear experience and development. In that period the generating boards have installed about 6,600 MW of nuclear capacity, so that some 12 per cent. of our electricity is now being generated by nuclear power.
  We have come a long way from the original 200 MW Calder Hall station; through the early 250 MW to 300 MW Magnox stations, such as Bradwell and Berkeley, to the current 1,320 MW AGR stations. By now the United Kingdom has accumulated over 300 reactor years of experience in operating commercial nuclear stations; and some 475 billion kW hours of electricity have been generated in that way. All that has been achieved with a safety record that is second to none in any industry throughout the world. I am glad that both sides of the House appreciate and acknowledge that fact. Our nuclear generating capacity has provided a reliable base load of electricity more cheaply than any other source of electricity, apart from hydroelectric power.
  Hinkley Point B last year produced electricity at 1.45p per kilowatt hour. That compares with the average cost of producing electricity from modern coal or oil-fired stations last year of 1.85p per kilowatt hour and 2.62p per kilowatt hour respectively. Those comparisons represent for all types of station the full historic cost of generation for that year, including capital, operating and interest charges; complete fuel cycle costs including waste disposal; annual sums estimated to be required to cover the net costs of decommissioning; and an allocation for research and training.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Either now, or later, will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Government have changed their policy on burying waste?
  Mr. Lawson: There has been no change of policy. It might be better for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to

  23
  reply to that point at the end of the debate. The original project is no longer considered necessary for the policy that we have embarked on.
  The AGRs under construction will make a further contribution to reducing operating costs. This year will see a further three nuclear power stations come on stream for the first time—Hartlepool, Heysham 1 and Dungeness B. When fully operational, each of them—I stress "each"—is expected to save about £100 million a year compared with the cost of coal-fired power generation.
  So far as research and development are concerned, the Select Committee's report makes a number of comments on the role and activities of the Atomic Energy Authority. It is, I think, a measure of the esteem in which the authority and its current chairman are held, that the industry should have invited Dr. Walter Marshall to act as chairman of the task force that has developed the design of the proposed Sizewell PWR station.
  Work in support of the thermal reactor programme—important though it is—is only one part of a wide-ranging programme carried out by the AEA. Other important work includes the development of fast reactor technology and work in fusion—notably the European Community's JET project, now under construction at Culham. The technical excellence of the work is undoubted and widely acknowledged, and is demonstrated by the eagerness with which a wide range of British industry turns to the authority for research and development support.
  Quite rightly, the Select Committee devoted a great deal of its time to the vital question of the safety of nuclear power, which is of great concern to the House. Most people recognise the important benefits that nuclear power can bring, but many are naturally concerned at the risks they see as associated with it.
  It is right that we should keep such risks in mind, and ensure that plant and processes are such that they are minimised. However—as I said just now—the safety record of the British nuclear industry is outstanding. During 25 years of commercial operation of nuclear power stations in the United Kingdom, no accidents have occurred that have given rise to significant public hazard. That is because of the way in which British nuclear power stations have been designed, licensed, constructed and operated, and is a measure of the policy of the electricity supply industry of defence in depth. Probably in no other industry has so much time, effort and money been devoted to the maintenance and supervision of safety. Every effort must be and will be made, to ensure that high standards of safety are maintained and, where appropriate, improved.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that that effort has been made in the closest consultation, at every stage, with the trade unions
  Mr. Lawson: I freely acknowledge that, because it is absolutely correct.
  The Government fully endorse the Select Committee's view that continuing public acceptability of nuclear power will be very largely based on confidence in the organisation of safety in the industry, particularly in the role of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, which is part
  24
  of the Health and Safety Executive. We agree that the independence and effectiveness of a strong inspectorate must be maintained.
  In this context, the Select Committee drew attention to the NII's recruitment difficulties. The Government's response to the report stated that, in the light of this, we were reviewing the inspectorate's current salary levels and the ceiling on the reimbursement of expenses incurred by new recruits to the NII and other shortage grades on first appointment.
  I can now inform the House that the review of NII pay has been completed and the Government are considering the findings. I hope that it will prove possible to reach a positive decision very shortly. The recruitment of nuclear installations inspectors has been improving gradually over the past year. The Health and Safety Executive is currently seeking to bring the strength of the NII up to 106 from the present level of 97 inspectors in post, which compares with 89 inspectors this time last year. I hope that the outcome of the salary review will assist that recruitment.
  I am satisfied that the NII has the staff resources it needs to fulfil its many vital functions in the nuclear industry as a whole. Meanwhile, I assure hon. Members that the PWR work in particular, is not being held up by NII staffing. Although—as I mentioned earlier—this country was first in the field with nuclear power, there has been a frustrating loss of momentum since the early 1970s in the development of nuclear generating capacity. Many factors contributed to this, among them the difficulties encountered over the construction of the first generation of AGRs and the consequent escalation of costs; the subsequent hesitation, mistakes and near-paralysis over the choice of reactor; and the cumbersome structure of the nuclear power industry itself.
  When the Government took office in 1979 it was clear to us that action was needed on a number of fronts to re-establish the momentum and sense of purpose of the industry and to ensure that the potential for cheap electricity which nuclear power offers could and would be realised. As my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Transport pointed out, we needed to set about the task without delay. That is what he did. He confirmed the orders for the AGRs at Heysham and Torness and he confirmed the proposal made by the previous Government and announced by the right hon. Memmber for Bristol, South-East in January 1978—to which I have already alluded—that the CEGB and the industry should take steps to establish whether the PWR could be adopted as a safe and economic alternative to the AGR.
  I now take up the intervention of the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English), who has now mysteriously disappeared from the Chamber. Apparently his interest in this subject is not all that great. However, other hon. Members have a greater interest. The Select Committee suggested that we should also have undertaken an in-depth study of the CANDU type of reactor as a further possible option. I believe that we were right not to pursue this avenue, particularly after our experience of the SGHWR blind alley. Quite apart from the extra time that would be required to bring CANDU to the same stage of development in relation to United Kingdom conditions and requirements as the PWR has now reached, it would make no sense to direct resources and effort to a parallel study of CANDU when all the indications are that it would be more expensive than either the PWR or the AGR.

  25
  Preliminary indications of the likely cost of the PWR design proposal for Sizewell confirm the wisdom of that decision.
  However, the future of the CEGB's proposal to build a PWR at Sizewell will, of course, depend on the outcome of the inquiry. I have made it clear in the House and elsewhere that this will be a full and wide-ranging inquiry.
  Last July my predecessor, who is now the Secretary of State for Transport, announced the issues which we regard as relevant to the inquiry. I have now given virtually a full year's notice of the start of the inquiry, which should allow between six and eight months to study the key information and documents which the CEGB and the NII plan to make available. This should ensure that we have a full, detailed and well-informed public debate. It is also fully consistent with the recommendations of the Select Committee on this matter save on one specific point. We do not agree with the Committee that it would be appropriate to set any time limit on the duration of the inquiry.
  The participants must be given the opportunity fully to deploy their cases. The length of time that this requires should be left to the independent inspector, Sir Frank Layfield, to decide—as indeed he will on the conduct of the inquiry as a whole.
  Mr. Dalyell: If it is unreasonable to ask for one now, may we have a clear statement when the Under-Secretary of State replies on whether the likely decommissioning costs are included in the estimates for the PWR?
  Mr. Lawson: The answer is that they are.
  Mr. John Evans: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the problems facing those who wish to object to the PWR is finance? Does he recognise that it is important that all the arguments are heard? Therefore, will the Government accept the necessity tc finance those who wish to object to the PWR?
  Mr. Lawson: I do not accept that. However, I was about to deal with that issue. In response to some of the remarks that I have heard outside the House and which I have read, I see no prima facie reason to suppose that the Government will not be in a position to take a final decision one way or the other on the PWR during the lifetime of the present Parliament.
  The hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) mentioned financial aid. I realise that there are many on both sides of the House who feel that the Government should give financial avid to the Sizewell objectors. I shall listen carefully to what is said in the course of this debate and I shall read in Hansard tomorrow the contributions that I miss today, but so far I have yet to be convinced that we should take such a course, which would be without precedent in this country.
  Not least among the difficulties is the fact that it would clearly be impossible for the Government to provide open-ended aid to all objectors. There would have to be a ceiling on the total amount of aid and the available cake would have to be allocated between the various objectors. This would be an invidious task and in my view one which it would be inappropriate for the Government, or indeed anyone else, to undertake.
  We have a long tradition of planning inquiries in which eminent inspectors have ensured that justice is done. I am sure that the whole House will share my confidence in the
  26
  ability and fair-mindedness of Sir Frank Layfield, who has a great deal of experience of these matters and who stands four-square within that tradition.
  The steps that we have taken since 1979 have put the nuclear power industry onto a much sounder footing, and in a position to make the most of its future opportunities.
  Provided that the industry—this is an important proviso—can build safe nuclear power stations to cost and to time—and the CEGB has fully taken on board the criticisms recently made by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission in this context—I expect nuclear power to make an increasing contribution to electricity supplies. This will provide a welcome diversification and flexibility in our energy supplies.
  The Select Committee was understandably exercised, however, about the likely need for additional generating capacity, and my Department is currently engaged in the preparation of new energy projections which will be available in time for the Sizewell inquiry. Inevitably, the range of uncertainty in a matter of this kind is formidable. However, preliminary work suggests that even in the most pessimistic of the alternative projections that we are considering there is a substantial growing need for new generating capacity through the 1990s and into the next century. Apart from the need to provide for rising electricity demand, generating capacity will be needed to replace obsolete and uneconomic generating capacity now in place. Thus, the rate of nuclear build through the 1990s is likely to be much faster than our experience in either the 1960s or the 1970s.
  Mr. Gordon Wilson: In the regrettable absence of a Minister from the Scottish Office responsible for electricity generation in Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether his remarks about the need for new generating plant apply to Scotland, which has a huge over-capacity and existing plant which is far more modern than that owned by the CEGB?
  Mr. Lawson: I have no responsibility for electricity generation in Scotland. However, I think that the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is "Yes". Furthermore, the arguments for nuclear power are not based only on the total amount of capacity that is needed. The arguments extend to the cost of generating electricity by nuclear power and the need for a diversity of supply. Given the substantial margin of error which inevitably attaches to long-term projections of this sort—I concede that to the hon. Gentleman—it clearly makes no sense to adopt any rigid plan or programme. We therefore propose to adopt a flexible approach, keeping our long-term strategy under regular review, and authorising specific new orders as and when we are satisfied that each is justified. Some hon. Members, especially those who served on the Select Committee, may detect a similarity between this approach and the conclusion reached by the Select Committee in paragraph 72 of its report.
  Peering still further into the future, we clearly want to keep open the option to introduce fast reactors as and when these become economic. The experience gained by the Atomic Energy Authority in the construction and operation of the prototype fast reactor and the associated fuel plant at Dounreay provide a valuable basis for this. The NNC and the AEA are working together on a design for a commercial scale demonstration reactor and the chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority has recently mace it clear that a very satisfactory design is emerging.
  Dr. M. S. Miller: Will the Government's acceptance of PWR significantly decrease the lead time that is necessary before the construction of a nuclear power station takes place?
  Mr. Lawson: The Government's decision on this PWR application depends onthe outcome of the Sizewell inquiry. It would not be right for me to prejudge that because of the position that I have as Secretary of State in relation to that inquiry and because the lead time will be part of the economics of the issue that will come before the inquiry. I take the hon. Gentleman's point.
  Mr. Dalyell rose——
  Mr. Ted Leadbitter: I am following the Secretary of State's speech with great care. He has introduced the problem of the fast breeder reactor. Does he agree that there is a school of thought that the natural step from the AGR generation was through to the helium-cooled high temperature reactor and then to the fast breeder reactor? To what extent will a deviation to the PWR programme inhibit that objective?
  Mr. Lawson: It is not a deviation. The view that the high temperature reactor had a part to play in the process was held always by a minority. The majority opinion was that there was a need for straightforward thermal nuclear reactors for some time to come. The main question was whether a PWR option should be included or whether we should stick to the AGR.
  Mr. Dalyell rose——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. There is a long list of hon. Members who hope to be called in the debate. Too many interruptions will mean that fewer hon. Members are called, especially if those interruptions are by the same hon. Member, who is developing the habit.
  Mr. Lawson: I also say to the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) that the time scale for the introduction of the fast reactor as a competitive source of power now seems longer than it did only a few years ago, largely because of increased confidence in the long-term availability of uranium supplies. We shall need the thermal nuclear programme for a longer time even if we were to turn—no decision has been taken to the fast breeder reactor in due course. Before taking any major policy decisions on the fast reactor programme, the Government are carefully exploring a number of policy options, including the possibility and potential benefits of some form of international collaboration.
  Meanwhile, the immediate issues confronting the Government and the industry concern the thermal reactor programme. I believe that the steps that the Government have now taken about the thermal reactor programme will help to safeguard the further security of our energy supplies, on which the well-being of our country so very heavily depends. I foresee, too, that, by the turn of the century, alongside our coal-firing generating stations, we shall have a large and well-established nuclear power programme, that our industry will be organised so as to cater for that programme and that we shall be able to supply nuclear goods and services to other countries which, like ourselves, have a growing need for nuclear power. On top of that, we shall be well placed to move into whatever forms of nuclear energy may follow the thermal reactor.
  28
  However, not the least important way in which the United Kingdom will have served the cause of peaceful nuclear development will be the way in which we have provided for full and well-informed public discussion of the nuclear business both in the House and outside it. The whole House, and indeed the whole nation, should be grateful to the Select Committee for its contribution to that discussion. We have nothing to hide about our nuclear power programme—quite the contrary. By making known the full facts, and our excellent record of safety and performance, I believe that we shall assist peaceful nuclear development everywhere for the good of mankind.
  Mr. John Home Robertson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State has admitted that he has no responsibility for electricity generation in Scotland. As we are now half an hour into the debate, and as the South of Scotland Electricity Board is scathingly criticised in the report, have you had any notification that a Scottish Office Minister will be present?
  Mr. Speaker: I am never told which Minister will be present. I am told only the names of those who hope to catch my eye. I have not received such notice.
  4.3 pm
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) has just raised is also under discussion in the Oil and Gas (Enterprise) Bill Standing Committee, because the report refers to Scotland, for which the Secretary of State is not responsible. As there are many problems in Scotland, it would have been better if a Minister from the Scottish Office had been present at today's debate.
  The report of the Select Committee is valuable, not only for energy, but because it shows the value of the Select Committee procedure in general. I wish to congratulate the Chairman and the members of the Committee, not because I agree with every dot and comma of the report but because the arguments and the information contained therein at least enable us to discuss the problem of nuclear energy on the Floor of the House. That is the basic value of a Select Committee report that is based on evidence taken from experts in the industry.
  I am not so sure of my ground when it comes to fitting the report into the perspective and determination of energy policy and decisions taken, whether in the House or in Government. In my view, no Government have dealt with the matter properly, although when my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) were in Government we had most valuable debates on the Windscale inquiry, which were a necessary precursor to decisions by Ministers. That set a method of dealing with such difficult questions which I hope will not be lost.
  The Secretary of State has come to such matters with a far greater background than I, but we are still both new boys. We shall consider the NNC and other matters mentioned in the report. However, I am not sure whether the Department of Energy has got it right. I visited the United States of America a few days ago, where they have gone to the other extreme of abolishing the State-run

  29
  corporation. They wish to leave the the matter to free market forces. I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree with that.
  Mr. John Evans: My right hon. Friend should not put that idea into his head.
  Mr. Rees: That is always a danger, but the Secretary of State would have known about it anyway.
  I propose to use the occasion not to lay down details of Opposition policy that will be carried out by a future Government, because we do not know what the circumstances will be in a few years' time, but I take issue with the Secretary of State when he says that he sees no reason why the Government should not take a decision on the next sort of nuclear reactor. I question that proposition, and I would question it if the Labour Party were in Government. It would be most surprising if, within the next two years, any Government were in a position to take a decision on the report that will he published after the Sizewell inquiry.
  Mr. Lawson: Why?
  Mr. Rees: It will be a year before the inquiry starts, which takes us into 1983. The right hon. Gentleman said that the inquiry would last for eight months, but I would be surprised if it finished in that time. It may well be that this Secretary of State will not take the final decision. I do not say that in a narrow political way, but I do not wish to prejudge the issue. I have read the report and I shall listen to what is said. Much information will be available from the Sizewell inquiry.
  As to the inquiry, I was glad to hear the Secretary of State saying that any specific proposal must be justified on its merits. wish to be sure that that means that the case for the PWR in general, and not just the PWR at Sizewell, will he considered at the inquiry. I am sure that that is what the Secretary of State meant, but not all Conservative Members agree. Perhaps the Secretary of State can give us his view about that.
  Secondly, I raise the safety factor of the PWR. All that I have to work on—I say that in no derogatory way—is paragraph 109 of the report. I am not an expert in such matters, so I accept what the report says. Paragraph 109 states:
  "we would stress that it must be the duty of the NII to ensure that the appropriate requirements are met…Although the PWR has substantial world-wide operating experience, we have been struck by some of the evidence brought to our attention on the technical difficulties of analysing PWR safety".
  It goes on to justify that, and later states:
  "Also according to TRA, if design changes were made to the PWR because of demands by the NII, the proving of an adequate safety case would be particularly difficult without a full knowledge of the underlying system technology 'which is not available in the United Kingdom'. It will be necessary for NII to acquire and display considerable skill in making the safety assessment…
  The evidence and opinions received by the Committee during this inquiry strongly suggest that, in order to achieve the necessary degree of safety, the PWR requires a very high standard of quality control, involving tests, inspections and analyses extending throughout its construction and operational life—a period of approximately 40 years. During this period inspections must be made and faults recognised, recorded and analysed in a well-nigh perfect manner if safety is to be assured."
  As a non-expert, I found those statements extremely worrying. Can we be assured that that aspect will be looked at most carefully by Sir Frank Layfield?
  The story over the past 10 years of the choice of reactor is not a happy one. I am not making a narrow political
  30
  point, as the period covers Governments of both parties. The choice will be extremely difficult whichever Government are in power. The information that must be analysed cannot be dealt with merely by writing a position paper or taking a simple decision. Many points are endemic to the outcome. The problem cannot readily be overcome.
  At paragraph 513 of the Government's reply the Secretary of State states that the Government
  "re-affirms the view that, subject to the necessary consents and safety clearances being obtained the PWR is the appropriate alternative to the AGR."
  What happens if the consents and clearances are not obtained? There has necessarily been much commitment to the PWR. If, in 18 months or two years' time, the Sizewell inquiry says "No", what will the Government do?
  My colleagues on the Committee have talked to me about CANDU. It appears that it may be too late, although I do not have the backing to take such a decision.
  What about the AGR? I listened to the debates at the TUC annual conference and spoke to various members. It is concerned about the British power plant industry. It does not want it to disintegrate while decisions are pondered and reviewed and sometimes shelved. There is need for a steady production run that uses manufacturing resources carefully and is more economic than when there are stops and starts. Trade union representatives from the North-East coast, Clydeside the West Midlands and so on all tell me that a steady ordering programme is vital not only to provide jobs but for the necessary research and development. We must not rest on the assumption that the Sizewell inquiry will say "Yes".
  Despite the proper advice about the need for a PWR, and athough we must have the inquiry's report before a final decision is made, given what has happened in the past five or 10 years, I believe that we should keep open the option of ordering at least one other AGR.
  Mr. Lawson: The option is open.
  Mr. Rees: I am grateful for that, but the Government have a greater responsibility. If the report comes down against a PWR, the power plant industry will not want to wait for another year for a decision. We must consider the needs of the industry and the need for jobs in the North-East and Scotland.
  Fast reactor technology is relevant to the decision on the type of reactor. The TUC conference approved a statement that the development of fast-breeder reactor technology is vital. I do not know from what the Secretary of State said how urgent the Government consider the matter. The production of a fast reactor cannot take place straight away. Is sufficient research and development being carried out, however, and is sufficient finance being provided for the reactor itself and for the fast reactor cycle? The managing director of the northern division of the UKAEA, Dr. Marsham, has written an interesting article in "Atom", which shows how important the matter is.
  After dealing with how thermal reactors work, the TUC conference stated:
  "Britain currently has 20,000 tonnes of depleted uranium from thermal reactors—unreleased energy equivalent to 40,000 million tonnes of coal if utilised in fast reactors. The TUC considers that the country cannot afford to squander such reserves of energy if they can be safely and efficiently harnessed. Accordingly, the Government should make an early decision to develop fast reactor technology—if necessary in collaboration with other countries—in order that all essential issues of safety,

  31
  economics and security can be fully and satisfactorily explored before a decision is taken on whether a commercial programme might be needed before the end of the century."
  The Secretary of State was a little bland about that matter. What is the Government's attitude to the urgency?
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) put down an early-day motion, which was signed by a number of my hon. Friends, about fusion. He picked up a point about which I wrote to the Secretary of State. I do not necessarily believe everything in the newspapers, but I was concerned to read a recent report in The Sunday Times about the RFX fusion project, which stated:
  "Dr. Walter Marshall, Chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority, last week lashed out at the Government for forcing him to cancel Britain's only independent fusion power project."
  It quotes Dr. Marshall, stating one reason why he was in favour of RFX, and goes on:
  "The other main reason is Marshall's 'gut feeling that this is ultimately a more promising route than the tokomak' (the experiment which now dominates world fusion budgets)."
  When I wrote to the Secretary of State about the matter, he stated:
  "It is true that the project did not take place because of public expenditure constraints. The Atomic Energy Authority accepted that attention should focus on…(JET)".
  He went on to give his view about the press story.
  The project could solve many of the great problems of waste storage and disposal about which we are concerned. More money should certainly be provided for research.
  The report deals with many other matters, including the cost analysis of nuclear power and technical problems. I sometimes find the cost arguments difficult to accept, but I do not necessarily accept the counter arguments either, whether it be on historic costs or the factors taken into account. I have a slight suspicion about accountancy. It matters what is put into the pot. However, I understand that the job has to be done.
  I must make clear the view that has been expressed by the Labour Party and the Trades Union Congress about nuclear power:
  "A continuing programme of nuclear power station construction based on thermal reactors designed and built in the United Kingdom—along with the development of fast reactor technology—is essential in moving towards the TUC's energy objective of sustained self-sufficiency".
  That is a starting point. However, the speed with which that is done and what resources one puts into coal, gas and alternative fuels must be taken into account. So much for the supply side.
  Not enough thought is given to the demand side of the equation. The future demand estimates are difficult to construct so they must be speculative. Throughout all the White Papers that have ever been written and the papers that predated the White Papers, the estimates have usually been wrong. There is nothing wrong in that, because it is impossible to be right when one is looking decades ahead. The factors change. The nature of industry is changing.
  When I recall my city of Leeds when I first went there 20 years ago and the amount of energy, mainly from coal, absorbed in the engineering factories, brick making, glassmaking, in the clothing industry and so on, I see that big changes have taken place, particularly in engineering, which my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) knows about. New forms of industry use energy in different ways. None of us knows the form of industry
  32
  to which the demand side of the equation is geared. We cannot get that absolutely right. We must be sceptical about the figures that are given.
  The position could be dramatically changed if more attention were given to energy conservation. The Government said in their reply to the Select Committee:
  "The results indicate a large potential for investment in energy conservation, some of which is more cost effective from a national point of view than investment to increase energy supply. However the implications of this potential for either the energy supply industries' investment programmes or the resources which should be devoted to Government promotion of energy conservation are not straightforward."
  The other aspects are also not straightforward. There is nothing straightforward in the future analysis that all of us must make. Energy conservation is vital. The Prime Minister made a speech about it last week. All industrial countries are wasteful in the use of energy.
  The 1979 Department of Energy projections assume a 20 per cent. reduction in primary energy demand resulting from increased conservation by the year 2000. That is an assumption, so it might be possible. The price of energy is a major factor in motivating industry and individuals to save energy. However, price alone will not lead to assumption being turned into reality.
  At the world energy conference recently, a spokesman said that, while high fuel prices had virtually eliminated energy wastage in the community, further inprovements would depend on investment. He expressed concern that in many cases the resources to fund major investment would not be available.
  An inter-departmental report by Government officials entitled "Energy Conservation: Scope for New Measures and Long-term Strategy"—energy paper No.33—concluded that
  "there is evidence that both companies and householders are unlikely to take full advantage of cost effective investment opportunities unless they are given some inducements to do so. The prospect of higher prices and energy scarcity over one or two decades ahead is not a sufficient stimulus."
  The Government inherited from the Labour Government a major four-year programme of energy conservation to cover expenditure of £450 million. It was introduced at the end of 1977. The main features included the provision for industry, commerce and agriculture of grant schemes, energy audits, advice, tax allowances, improvements in standards such as building regulations, new energy-saving technology, and a further £20 million for information and advice. That programme, which was introduced at the end of 1977, has been virtually dismantled by the Government. Energy conservation is a major factor in the demand side of the equation.
  Mr. Lawson: Conservation has increased.
  Mr. Rees: It will be interesting to know how conservation has been increased and in what respects.
  At its conference last year, the TUC proposed a £1 billion programme of expenditure, spread over four years, for industry, commerce and agriculture, including boiler conversion, for the non-housing public sector—defence, administration, health and education—for public and private sector housing insulation, for combined heat and power district heating, and for initial work on energy conservation research and development.
  The TUC made a recommendation for an energy conservation agency, which should be considered. It would co-ordinate what is being done in industry and the domestic sector. Jobs are involved. In their reply to the

  33
  report, the Government were weakest on energy conservation. It is a vital factor and could vitally affect the demand side of the equation.
  If I wanted, I could make a whole speech or an argument based on what people think of the National Nuclear Corporation. There seems to be an inordinate amount of chitchat and gossip about it. I forswear it because it is not a basis on which to come to a decision. People say that it is all the fault of X and Y and that, if it were not for so-and-so, all would be well. That may be so, but I have no knowledge of it. In their conclusion, the Government said:
  "The Government does not consider major organisational changes necessary."
  As they say "major organisational changes", that means that they might consider organizational changes.
  The Government consider that the NNC
  "should evolve into a strong and independent design and construction company. It is currently reviewing with both the Corporation and the Generating Boards how the Corporation's role in relation to the major financial risks involved in nuclear power station construction could be strengthened.
  So be it. I have heard about the problem for a long time. The NNC does not work well. The question that arises is: who is in charge and who is taking the lead? It seems that there are so many powerful interests involved that it is difficult for a decision to be taken at all, if not quickly enough, although speed is not of the essence.
  The Government's conclusion is a little bland in the face of an organisation that does not work properly. The company is privatised, so it should do well. However, privatised or not, there is no firm decision taking. The Opposition should put their mind to that matter, because in a future Labour Government we shall have to do something about it quickly.
  Mr. Peter Rost: The Labour Government wasted time.
  Mr. Rees: The hon. Gentleman says that we have plenty of time. Of course, we have had years, but it is a difficult question. All I am asking is that we should put our minds to it, because no one has succeeded.
  Mr. Peter Rost: I did not say that there was plenty of time. I intervened to say that the previous Government allowed matters to drift without taking any decisions.
  Mr. Rees: I accept that. The NNC situation redounds to no one's credit. I was saying that it was time that we did something and that the response to the Select Committee was a little bland.
  When the Secretary of State for Energy answered questions after his statement on 20 January, he talked, as he did today, about the wasted years. Whatever the Government said when they first came into office, they have not moved quickly. They have moved slowly and I believe that they are right to approach the problem in that way. The nature of events has led them to do that. When he gave a list of the orders for new power stations, it always confirmed the orders that had been made before rather than proposing new ones. Nuclear power has been a low priority. No more has been heard of building one reactor per year. Each year more is shaved off predicted energy requirements, and the major problem of the disposal of waste, which none of us can ignore, still remains.
  The report gives us much to think about. It is certain that there is a role for nuclear power, but in terms of speed,
  34
  type of reactor energy conservation and alternative fuels we may be looking at different circumstances in five years' time. The Opposition must take all that into account and consider what to do about it. If it falls not to the present Government but to a Labour Government to act on the report, we should do as my right hon. Friend did in 1979. Before any final decision is taken, the report must be debated in the House so that the Government may have the approval of the House for the next steps. I regard the report as most valuable, but it is the beginning of a process and not the end. The Sizewell inquiry will be only one part of the process, and there is only one place where a final decision can be reached—the House of Commons.
  4.31 pm
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: After the remark which Mr. Speaker made in your absence, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about the undue solicitude shown for me this afternoon, it would be at best tactless and at worst careless were I not to acknowledge that I appreciate that very much. Had I found myself speaking first, I might have been dangerously tempted to conclude that I had arrived prematurely and that in that event my rhetorical power might have become critical. It is, perhaps, better that I speak now.
  I should also like to acknowledge the warm and generous tribute that both the Secretary of State and the right hon. Members for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) have paid both to myself and to the Committee. If I may pass the whole of their tribute on to the Committee, I shall only be stating the facts of the case.
  I should like to deal with one or two general matters concerning Select Committee reports of this nature, which I hope the House will have an opportunity to consider in more detail on more appropriate occasions.
  First, my hon. Friends on the Committee, by which term I include in a rather special sense all of its members, are here today in force, not only because they seek an opportunity to place some individual conclusions before the House, as I shall do myself, but because they have confessed to me from time to time some disappointment at the opportunities that they are given to participate more generally in energy debates. I would argue on their behalf that this is a subject on which they are now formidably well informed. If I may say so without disrespect, they are better informed than the vast majority of right hon. Members who so often catch your eye. Mr. Deputy Speaker. Our debates are often the poorer as a result of that situation.
  Secondly, it is a great pity that we have had to wait more than a year for this debate. Energy is a crucial issue and nuclear power lies at the crux of the debate. Though inevitably controversial and widely criticised, this was a major report that raised major issues. Such issues should be discussed when they are fresh not only in the minds of the Committee but in the public mind. A year later, much has changed and hon. Members have to refresh their memories about a policy scene which has immensely complex features. A year is also a long time in energy policy. For that reason I believe that we need a procedural innovation comparable to the Supply Day procedure enjoyed by the Opposition. If Select Committees are to serve some purpose other than the production of material for departmental pigeonholes, we should have a limited right to initiate debates on, say, 10 half days per year. That

  35
  would give every Committee at least one opportunity to persuade the House and the Government to "take note" or even, when appropriate, to respond to a motion.
  I wish to reply briefly to some of the general criticisms of the report that appeared in the press and elsewhere and which varied, not surprisingly, from the eulogistic to the scathing. The Times described the report as
  "a powerful attack on the nuclear industry",
  which it was certainly not intended to be, but believed that it created uncertainty, particularly as we revealed once again what might be described as the spectre of CANDU—the remarkably successful Canadian system which the nuclear establishment chooses strenuously to disregard. In this context, The Times argues that the industry needs
  "the assurance of stable policies".
  That is an understandable objective, and it is a solid argument, but it really means that the nuclear industry wants an assurance that there will be no change in the type of reactor built, certainty about the number to be built over a considerable period and, if possible, that the whole policy should be implemented on what is in effect a cost-plus basis.
  Every industry would like similar guarantees. Every nationalised industry and every industrial pensioner in the public sector—and, alas, there are all too many—constantly proclaims how much easier life would be in a certain world, whether it be British Steel, British Leyland, ICL or De Lorean. Of course, there must be an element of continuity, especially when large investments have to be made—and the investments in this context are larger than most—but every time economic security, which is what is involved, is increased for this group, it is reduced for others, who have to pay for it through higher prices, higher taxation, higher energy costs or any of the other factors that expose them more directly to the winds of economic or technological change.
  One of the reasons why our energy costs are so high and our nuclear performance so patchy is precisely that the industry has been insulated by policy and licensing or regulatory procedures from the need to respond more effectively to what is happening elsewhere.
  The Financial Times, however, believed that we had allowed ourselves to be sidetracked into what it described as
  "a myriad of lesser issues"
  and that we had not dealt with
  "the central question of how decision-making could be improved".
  It also accused us of "jumping to conclusions" unsupported by evidence. To the first criticism, I would merely reply that this subject was comprehensively dealt with in section VIII of our recommendations, in which we considered the structure of the Department, the Atomic Energy Authority, the National Nuclear Corporation and the power plant industry and the relationships between them. There were hundreds of pages of evidence and cross-examination on this subject, on which the Committee deliberated at great length. As to the conclusions not being based on evidence, I have with me the three vast volumes of evidence and I should be very surprised indeed if there is no link between any of our major conclusions and the content of those volumes.
  The Central Electricity Generating Board deserves a special word. The board was much criticised by our
  36
  witnesses, and it would have been a dereliction of duty if the Committee had not reported and assessed the evidence. It is important, however, to make it clear that the Committee has absolutely no axe to grind either for or against the CEGB or any other organisation mentioned in the report.
  In this context, I wish to dispose of one particularly damaging criticism, by Mr. Fishlock, that the Committee brought in advisers
  "merely to reinforce a personal view".
  That is the exact obverse of the truth. The hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) and I were wholly responsible for the selection of advisers, whose names were submitted by the Clerks, and at the time of selection it would be fair to say that not only did we have little knowledge of the advisers' views but we were concerned solely with their professional reputation. Indeed, at that point my own personal knowledge of the nuclear situation was extremely limited and supported no general conclusions of any kind. I would not have known how to be prejudiced.
  I pay warm tribute not only to the objectivity and hard work of the Committee's advisers, but to the formidable work programme that every member of the Committee undertook. Inevitably, we developed strong and often conflicting views, but they were derived from the evidence. It is the evidence which, like the iceberg, gives weight and substance to the report. If it lacked a cutting edge, it was because the conclusions sometimes resulted from compromises that were reached only after the greatest difficulty. There is no demerit whatever in that. The Committee contained a broad spectrum of views and we looked at an even broader spectrum of issues. Mr. Justice Parker, in his Windscale inquiry, addressed a single but vital issue with singleminded directness and I often envied him his unfettered judgment.
  We were all grateful to The Scotsman, which concluded that we had argued our case "cogently", and to the responsible journal, Nature, which very pertinently observed that we had
  "thrown a spanner in works that were not working"
  and that the commercial exploitation of nuclear power for the past quarter of a century had been
  "a cross between a fairy story and a nightmare".
  I fully endorse that conclusion, which leads me to others. I fully accept Nature's further comment that the crux of this issue
  "with which even this loudspoken Committee has not come to grips is that there is no mechanism in the present arrangement for the sponsorship of nuclear or any other kind of power which will allow that the consumer of the electricity should be King".
  We discovered, particularly at the Isle of Grain and generally throughout the industry, that if our energy costs are too high—as they are—our poor national performance as power station constructors bears as great a responsibility as, if not greater than, the cost of fuel or the efficiency of generation for this consequence.
  In this context, there have recently been two quite remarkable disclosures. First, the National Nuclear Corporation has recently announced that it has built, at a cost of £4½million—I give that figure with some scepticism—a model of the pressurised water reactor to be built at Sizewell, claiming, I believe correctly, that this will enable the builders to avoid costly full-scale errors.
  The NNC claims that it was introduced to this amazing novelty by the architect engineers Bechtel. How astonishing! The Committee saw such a model at Three

  37
  Mile Island, where I gather it proved invaluable both before and after the event. However, the Yarrow Admiralty research department has been building full-scale mock-ups of ship engine and boiler rooms for at least 25 years to my personal knowledge. Why should our power station builders have to wait for Bechtel to describe the technique and its advantages?
  The second disclosure, which brings me somewhat prematurely to the whole question of licensing and safety, is the statement by Dr. Marshall, the chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority—for whom I have the greatest respect—that it would cost £10 million to look at the CANDU reactor properly. Dealing with mega millions, as the CEGB does as a matter of routine, one sees how easy it is to overlook reality. Assuming that £5 million of that sum was spent on overheads, which is fairly generous, it would support 25 experts at £20,000 a year for 10 years. I cannot believe that those figures are anything but a reflection of the vast on-cost that we have allowed the safety establishment to impose on what by now is a straightforward, established and demonstrably safe engineering technology. In my humble view, it is a gravy train of quite staggering proportions, for we are now told that at least 20 per cent. of the cost of the British PWR represents the cost of additional safety features that a combination of interests has insisted shall be included in the British system if ever it is built here.
  It was undoubtedly a great privilege to have had the opportunity of examining the nuclear power industry in the United Kingdom, the United States, France and West Germany and of meeting and questioning some of the world's foremost authorities on the subject. I shall not name them. At the end of such an inquiry, one inevitably reaches fairly firm conclusions. I have done so in seven areas in respect of which I was unable to carry the whole Committee with me. That is not surprising, but I would be failing in the duty that this privilege imposes on me were I not now to spell out my own conclusions as forcefully as I can.
  First, I state quite categorically that I believe nuclear power to be the safest, most efficient, reliable and productive form of energy that the human race has so far devised, provided—and the provisos are formidable—that we do not allow the economics of construction and operation to be destroyed by technical pride or regulatory overkill.
  We now begin to distinguish much more effectively between three related but distinctively separate objectives: first, the efficient building and operating of nuclear power stations; secondly, ensuring that they meet objective safety criteria; and, thirdly, ensuring that there is a close relationship between the achievement of safety and the public perception of that achievement.
  Secondly, we have now reached the stage in which the overhead imposed on the industry—designers, builders and operators—by the regulatory process is in very real danger of killing it stone dead. I talk not only of the United Kingdom, but of the United States and West Germany where in certain cases reactors have been cocooned for more than a year.
  That, indeed, is the stated objective of some groups. Let us be frank about it. They are much nearer their target than they think. No industry, whether financed in the public or private sectors, can endure when an investment of the order of £1,000 million per unit, which costs about
  38
  £500,000 a day in interest to finance, can be stymied for a year or even indefinitely by what are known as intervenor groups.
  If we kill this industry because we have neither technical nor political courage, the energy consequences are such that no possible alternative investment will enable us to offset the energy consequences. The fringe" energies, about which we hear so much, cannot compensate for nuclear power in the next three decades. I have seen not one convincing memorandum—and I have seen a great many—that has disproved that assertion. In my judgment, coal cannot compensate—nor should it—for its cost in life and environmental damage is likely to be prodigiously greater than that of nuclear power.
  Thirdly, I remain totally unimpressed by the repeated misdescription of established, proven and demonstrably safe nuclear systems—especially the PWR—as "prototypes". Here I disagree with the Committee. In that respect, I believe that it is ludicrously expensive and cumbersome so to redesign the Calloway PWR, of which there are five in operation and 43 under construction, that it should have been described recently as "an AGR with steam".
  Mr. Reg Race: Has not the hon. Gentleman read the report of the NII on the Marshall working party report that states:
  "There are no firm grounds for stating that nuclear steel pressure vessels will have acceptable failure rates"
  and adds
  "the United Kingdom might have 150 pressure vessels in use at the end of 40 years if this programme goes ahead and…between four and 40 pressure vessels might fail"?
  Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman brings me back to one of the important and fundamental technical minutiae that the Committee examined at great length. We have extremely interesting, powerful and directly conflicting evidence on this point. Having listened to all that evidence and conducted much of the cross-examination, I have not emerged with the conclusion that pressurised water reactor pressure vessels or their associated steam generators are inherently unsafe for these reasons. I speak in the full knowledge of Sir Alan Cottrell's evidence.
  New Scientist has recently published a table showing that there is a massive increase in the tonnage of concrete in the reactor and turbine buildings, of structural concrete elsewhere, of large pipes and of wire and pipe in the United Kingdom PWR design. The AGR is much more lavish than the United Kingdom PWR, and the latter is much more lavish than the American, Japanese, German or French PWRs. As I do not for a moment accept that the latest American PWR reference design is unsafe, I do not for a moment believe that that is necessary or justified nor do I believe that it is necessary or justified simply because, for very similar reasons, the people of the United States have very nearly destroyed their own nuclear industry.
  Fourthly, no one who has seen them can fail to be impressed by the United States, French or Canadian nuclear programmes and installations. If allowed to develop, all will produce low-cost electrical energy—and are doing so—on a scale that cannot be matched by any other present form of power. The industrial advantage that this will offer cannot be matched in any other way. If allowed to develop without unnecessary restrictions, this form of energy will create and stimulate the more optimistic forecasts, of which the Committee was rightly critical.

  39
  Fifthly, an economic PWR programme in the United Kingdom could not be achieved on the basis of a nuclear industry that is geared to the present scale and variety of output. In this respect we are now well behind the United States, Japan and France and I suspect that we are also falling behind countries such as Spain, Switzerland and Canada. Canada has more in store capacity than we have.
  We have a clear choice. Either we supply ourselves with an efficient and economic PWR-based nuclear power generating system, building them without reference to the origin of components or expertise, or we can use the PWRs, which will have as limited a market as our AGRs, if any. The former policy will result in an effectively competitive electrical supply system that will doubtless offer considerable scope for supply from a reorganised and highly competitive British nuclear industry. The latter will achieve precisely the opposite effect. We shall develop an industry that is capable of superb, one-off, intensively over-engineered nuclear power stations that will produce high cost and uncompetitive nuclear power and will have no overseas market whatsoever.
  Sixthly, I would like to say a word about CANDU, and this is where I profoundly disagree with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I remain—I could not be otherwise having been there and been the recipient of a remarkable presentation by the CANDU people in Ontario Electric—profoundly impressed by the many merits of the reactor system and equally unconvinced by the arguments that I have heard against it. The presentation was immensely persuasive. The Canadians have some of the cheapest, safest and most reliable nuclear power stations in the world. That does not permit of any disagreement. But we seem determined to ignore this achievement. Doubtless, it is now too late; I accept what my right hon. Friend has said. We are committed to both the AGR and the PWR and, I was delighted to hear the Secretary of State say, the fast breeder reactor.
  However, I will make a confident prediction. The CANDU system, in the lifetime of its known competitors, with the sole exception of the fast breeder, will out-perform them. If we could start again I have no doubt what my preference would be.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: The hon. Gentleman is speaking extremely well, but I do not quite understand how he can say tht we are committed to the PWR and that we have missed the CANDU bus.
  Mr. Lloyd: Although the commitment is often heavily qualified, and has been much more so in the last year than before the whole programme concept was examined, it seems that the CANDU option has been definitely dismissed by the Government. I do not think that there is any doubt about that. Therefore, we have the dismissal on the one side and a perhaps qualified commitment on the other, certainly to the AGR and probably to the PWR.
  Seventhly, I address the question of safety and licensing. It is my firm belief that the world's nuclear industry has been reduced to a sorry state by two major factors. The first is the extraordinarily limited public perception of the remarkable safety record of nuclear power. Why this should be so is a subject of much discussion but that it is so does not permit of any doubt.
  The second is the weakness of Governments who have allowed themselves to be manoeuvred by intervenor
  40
  groups into the position where the whole case for nuclear power and the whole safety performance of what is virtually a proven, standard nuclear steam supply system is re-examined virtually every time it is proposed to build or operate a new station.
  The one doubtless causes the other, but the cost is prodigious. It is as if each time an aircraft operating licence was sought the whole safety case of the aircraft type, or of the aeroplane, had to be remade. The right hon. Member for Leeds, South said earlier that he wondered what would happen if consent were not given. At a guess, £150 million would go up in smoke. That is the sort of figure we are talking about.
  It is clear to me, after seeing the superb production facilities in Pensacola in the United States and Chalons-sur-Saone in France, that the units are batch produced under the most rigorously controlled conditions and, in very large measure, are identical. If one is safe then within sensible limits, all are safe if built to the proper standards.
  We must address the whole question at a much more fundamental level than we have so far. I wonder what the current cost is of the certification procedure of a British nuclear power station. It cannot be much less than £15 to £20 million. It is significant that the staff involved in the licensing of all new large civil aircraft in the United States is some 60 to 70 people. The safety considerations are just as serious, much more life is at risk and it has widespread implications for air transport safety throughout the world. It is most significant that the United States is now arguing that type certification should be extended to nuclear power, and I would argue that we should do the same.
  It is the role of Parliament to answer to the nation on the amount, types and cost of energy supplied. It is the fundamental component and resource of any modern industrial system. It is inescapably a political question because it involves foreign affairs, investment and risk, to say nothing of industrial efficiency and employment. It is not Parliament's task to choose reactors, but it is Parliament's task to ensure that the choice is properly made and to ask questions when there is evidence, as there is, that the choice is not as effective as it might be.
  Nuclear power is a key, if not the key, demonstration area of the validity of the recent report of the House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology "Science and Government". It is, regrettably, a typical and tragic case where both the formulation and the execution of policy reveal, repeatedly and expensively, a grave and costly national deficiency of judgment and performance. We shall not eliminate this merely by altering the way in which power games are played on the existing 3D chessboard of the Government, the CEGB, and the nuclear construction industry, which is what I suspect we are doing. Everything that I have observed in pursuing this inquiry reinforces the conclusion of that Committee that we have a vacuum at our scientific and technological centre. We shall not get that answer right until that vacuum is filled.
  4.57 pm
  Mr. Tony Benn: This is an important report, an important debate, and an important inquiry. All I would say to the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd) is that he is a supporter of profitability as a criterion for development and that had that philosophy applied to nuclear power no nuclear power station would have been built in the world since the war.

  41
  The reason why this is a subject of public concern is not only because of the factors I will deal with, but because it has never been, in an ordinary sense, a commercial proposition and the hon. Gentleman would have to admit that.
  I have held responsibility as the Minister responsible for energy, and for the nuclear industry for nine years, which must be longer than any other Minister of Energy. I pay tribute to these in the industry, the scientists, the workers, the people engaged in nuclear power up and down the country, and to their great sense of dedication, and I want now to emphasise the points which I made in evidence to the Select Committee, which are also based upon my experience.
  First, I am and always have been entirely opposed to the pressurised water reactor and I can briefly summarise the reasons. There is an inherent safety defect in the design pointed out by Sir Alan Cottrell. It is no good saying, when Ministers are confronted with conflicting evidence, that in matters such as nuclear power there is any option but to go for the more cautious route. That is the view I took as Minister and. I take it still.
  Secondly. the alleged cost of the PWR leaves out of the account the modifications that have to be made to conform to the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate's specifications. These costs would make it so expensive as to reduce their advantage for us. Thirdly, we are a smallish country. With Magnox stations and AGR stations in operation and the fast breeder and fusion under consideration it would be wrong to introduce a new system. I venture to predict that the PWR—[interruption.] Perhaps the Secretary of State wishes to intervene.
  Mr. Lawson: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he has changed his mind since he was Secretary of State for Energy in 1978?
  Mr. Benn: I have not changed my mind. The Cabinet decided that it was right to have available the option of the PWR. My view that it is wrong to build a PWR has never altered. I dc not think that the PWR will ever be built in this country
  In our rare debates on nuclear power, it is wise to reconsider the old speeches and ask ourselves whether the great claims for nuclear power made in earlier debates—I have taken part in many of them since 1966—do not now merit reconsideration in the light of experience. We must ask ourselves whether the time has not now come to consider scaling down the role of nuclear power in our long-term energy plans.
  The hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo said that America had ruined its nuclear industry. He forgot to say that the United States forecasts of installed capacity have been cut by two thirds. His speech could have been made in the early days of nuclear power.
  I offer the House my opinions based on my experience. I do not purport to speak for the Labour Party or the TUC, whose policies are on record.
  This is the first debate since that on Windscale, and certain factors should be discussed. On the question of safety, the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo referred to a possible accident at a nuclear power station as though it were comparable with an aircraft accident. A moment's consideration would lead him to understand that there is a total difference between an aircraft crashing and a major nuclear accident. Therefore, the proposal for type
  42
  specification approval, without individual approval, would be wholly unacceptable. The hazards are more serious than is appreciated. Since I last spoke as the Secretary of State in the House there has been the Harrisburg incident. Those who have read the Brown's Ferry report, where a major tragedy was averted only by chance, will know of the hazards. Those two accidents concered PWRs.
  I wish to make a more general point. One thing that has profoundly affected my view was the coming to light, in the spring of 1979, of a serious leak at Windscale, when 20 gallons of concentrated high toxic waste, which should have been buried or kept in glass, leaked from a sump. It now lies in several hundred cubic feet of contaminated soil, which is covered by only 10 ft of topsoil. I am not a scientist, and the figures that I give mean no more to me than to other hon. Members. However, the nuclear inspectors with whom I discussed the matter drew a comparison. They said that those who disturbed that contaminated soil would be exposed to a radiation hazard of 500 to 1,000 rads per hour—yet only 5 rads per year is the permissible level. That is a serious leak.
  The Secretary of State, in a cavalier manner, dismissed the statement that we would keep high toxic waste on the surface. He appeared to suggest that the long-proclaimed, so-called "Harvist" solution, under which the waste would be put into glass blocks and buried underground, had been temporarily abandoned. I remind him that the leak at Windscale occurred from a surface sump.
  Mr. Rost: The right hon. Gentleman has listed a number of what he called serious accidents. How many people have been injured or killed by those accidents? Will he compare that figure with the number of people injured or killed in what he called the lesser accidents in aircraft?
  Mr. Benn: I gave those figures in an earlier speech in the House, to which I refer the hon. Gentleman. However, he has made a fair point—that, until now, the nuclear safety record has been better. But, having served as Minister of Technology and later as Secretary of State, I said and I say again now that there is no comparison between a major nuclear accident and deaths in individual accidents.
  I turn to the problem of cost. I know that the Secretary of State is most concerned about public expenditure. The costs of nuclear power compared with other sources of power are often misleading—especially for the PWR. I commissioned an inquiry on the subject, which is still in the Department. The right hon. Gentleman should examine it. It showed that a brand new coal-fired station and a brand new nuclear-fired station, of the same size and serving the same base load capacity, would reveal no difference in terms of cost. The research and development costs which have all been funded by public money are not fully charged against nuclear energy so as to refund all that expenditure. Nor can the operating performance be taken from one year at Hinkley. Hunterston B, when it was built, was delayed for a year because a little sea water penetrated the mechanism. It cost tens of millions of pounds to find alternative sources of energy. Heat and power is not possible with nuclear power except with the high temperature system, which has now been excluded.
  One cannot say that the cost of shut down and storage has been included because a nuclear power station has never been shut down. There is no provision for the

  43
  storage of nuclear waste, so that cannot be calculated—and certainly not for a PWR that has never been used in Britain. As the years pass, the costings will alter profoundly between alternative sources of power. The Severn barrage is coming closer as work progresses. Energy saving is more economic.
  The hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo spoke about the expenditure of £1 billion, but all we gain at the end of 10 years is a power station. However, £1 billion spent on conservation gives an energy saving tomorrow. The economics of energy saving appear different if looked at in that light.
  The Secretary of State referred to my speech in 1978, yet he and the Government closed down the Energy Commission, which held examinations of forecasts in public. Transcripts were published so that people could follow the change in the figures. The right hon. Gentleman says today that he will publish the forecasts later. There has been a fundamental change since 1979 and all forecasts reflect the assumptions that are fed into them. No one knows that better than the right hon. Gentleman because the forecasts on energy demand came from the Treasury, which feeds in the forecasts for economic growth. There will not be much economic growth under this Government.
  Another reason for doubt is that the nuclear lobby, without question, is the most powerful lobby that I have ever come across—especially that on the PWR. The international companies, such as Westinghouse, press very strongly for nuclear power stations. The Secretary of State said that he had reached a decision that should have been reached years ago. I question whether that decision should be reached now.
  I gave evidence to the Committee about the occasion when Dr. Walter Marshall returned from Teheran saying that the Shah had offered to buy half our nuclear power industry if we agreed to abandon the AGR and adopt the PWR. What was the link? The right hon. Gentleman should be a little more sceptical of what he is told. There is heavy pressure in the Cabinet Office and Whitehall to adopt the PWR. The scientific community is strongly in favour of nuclear power and the unions representing workers in that industry are, understandably, also in favour. But the greatest pressure for nuclear power comes from the military because the plutonium required for our weapons programme comes from nuclear power.
  The risk of proliferation has been much discussed. Most countries that want civil nuclear power want it for weapons purposes. Pakistan has developed the nuclear weapon. There was an irresponsible deal between Germany and Brazil. There are no enforceable nuclear safeguards. As a Minister I spoke often of the IAEA safeguards, but there are no enforceable safeguards in the control of fissionable material—there is only a rough and ready international monitoring system. We could only prevent Pakistan from making the bomb by major international pressure, which was applied only temporarily and was then withdrawn because of the Afghanistan position. Under Euratom, of which Britain is a member, we have lost control of our fissionable material. We have lost the power to buy uranium, which is now bought for us by Euratom.
  Atomic power is a vulnerable system because it is centralised, subject to attack either in war or by terrorism and subject to accidents. Where there is a vulnerable
  44
  system, we are bound to introduce safeguards that in turn threaten civil liberties. I cite one example that has become public. Councillor Trevor Brown was a Liberal councillor at Aldermaston and was prematurely retired for making public comments about what happened at Aldermaston. I have knowledge of this because he consulted me at that stage. I do not want to stir that old controversy. All I want to tell the House is that the Ministry of Defence was very angry with Councillor Brown for bringing to public attention matters of prime concern in safety at Aldermaston. I had an interest because I had once been the Minister concerned.
  For all these reasons, a thick curtain of secrecy surrounds all matters concerning nuclear power. It is hard to get the truth. Ministers are misled, and I have been myself. I asked the Secretary of State whether he would publish for the inquiry all the papers that he has in his Department relating to the PWR. He did not give me a wholly satisfactory answer. If there is to be confidence in nuclear power, the public must be told the facts and not merely fed with the propaganda and public relations activities of the nuclear industry.
  Those are all powerful arguments for caution. I have summarised, as I had to do, six very serious considerations which the House, then the inquiry and then the House again, should consider. I believe they point inescapably to a scaling down of nuclear power in our long-term plans, to no pressurised water reactor, to no fast breeder reactor, and to an absolute minimum of ordering—if we have to order. That was the basis of the AGR decision that I announced. If we have to order—there is no conceivable need for it on the basis of our present need, though we have to look ahead—it should be the gas-cooled stations, of which we have had experience from the early days. The world has gone PWR and we have a duty to preserve the gas-cooled option lest, as I fear, the PWR turns out to be an unacceptable system.
  We want a very wide inquiry into these matters. I am grateful for the year that has been left to prepare it. The Government should fund the objectors. The Minister will find in the records of his Department that I made preparations in my remaining months to fund low energy studies which would provide the basis on which the objectors would be able to question the advice. That is not so different from funding them because the objectors would have access to those studies. I would go further and say that, as with legal aid, where we even fund people to fight the Crown on matters of prosecutions, there should be funding available for people engaged in inquiries of this magnitude.
  Whatever happens, this is too big an issue to be determined by the experts, the scientists or the Minister. It must, as my right hon. Friend said, come back to the House for decision. I very much hope that the inquiry under Sir Frank Layfield will open up all the matters to which I have referred, so that the public will have a chance to assess whether this expanded and advanced programme on a new system has any merit in Britain.
  5.14 pm
  Mr. Robert Hicks: I, too, believe that the Select Committee on Energy has made a most valuable contribution, for the benefit of this House and the nation

  45
  as a whole, in its report on the United Kingdom nuclear power programme. As a layman in these matters, I am most grateful.
  In my short contribution I hope to be able to reflect, in purely layman's terms, some of the thoughts of people who share my misapprehension about the overall strategy. There is always a danger in debates of this kind that the views of the experts take over. As the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) has so rightly said, in a subject which is obviously very complex, we must not, as a House of Commons, allow the views of the experts to dominate.
  As a non-expert on the subject, I am most apprehensive about many facets of our nuclear power programme. That has not always been the case, but, as I read the Select Committee's report and the subsequent comments, I was constantly reminded of the time when I was an undergraduate studying geography. In all our energy and economic geography lectures, the continually recurring theme of all the lecturers was that nuclear power was one of the country's major hopes. We were told that, although the capital cost of construction would be great, the subsequent cost of electricity would be significantly reduced. We were told that that would have desirable effects on the unit cost of electricity for industry and the domestic consumer. That was over 20 years ago.
  The Select Committee's report substantiates the view that 1 have increasingly formed over the years, either that something has gone seriously wrong with the structure and organisation of the United Kingdom's nuclear power industry or that alternatively we have simply overestimated the economic potential of nuclear energy. It is clear that the development of nuclear power has been a sorry sequence of events, involving a number of wrong decisions, certainly missed opportunities, and inevitably wasted money. In making that assessment, one's own position on nuclear power is inherent. As I mentioned earlier, I am—and I remain—most apprehensive about its desirability as a source of power, not only on the economic basis that I mentioned briefly but in regard to security, the disposal of waste, and the process of decommissioning a reactor when that becomes necessary.
  Even allowing for my own doubts on the issue, the Select Committee's report raises questions in my mind as to whether we should be proceeding with a programme to construct, on average, one nuclear power station a year in the decade from 1982. I base my reservations primarily on two questions—whether sufficient attention has been given, first, to alternative sources and energy conservation, and, secondly, to future energy demands. With regard to the latter, the Select Committee report was very critical of the basis and the consequential evaluation of future electricity demands.
  As a layman, I find the 28 per cent. planning margin excessively high, even allowing for all the difficulties and the variables inherent in coming to any conclusions. As we all know, the Secretary of State's December 1979 statement was based on demand projections which have already been twice reduced subsequently. Therefore, it is all the more important for us to take into consideration the point made by the Select Committee in paragraph 27 of its report, on page 23, that
  "it is important that the additional or replacement capacity to be contributed by each proposed nuclear power station should be carefully evaluated on its own economic merits"
  and that any new power stations
  46
  "should not be ordered simply because they form part of a predetermined programme commitment."
  I confess that I was somewhat disappointed that the Secretary of State, in his speech at the beginning of the debate, did not clarify the Government's thinking in the light of that recommendation.
  Complementary to this aspect is the need to assess the potential effect, in energy requirements, of a more vigorous energy conservation programme. As one who has constantly requested Ministers of all Governments to give a greater priority to energy conservation techniques—if only to reduce the total energy bills that hard-pressed consumers are obliged to pay or to give a stimulus to a part of the building and construction trade—I was again disappointed by the lack of commitment from the Secretary of State in respect of the recommendations outlined in paragraph 32 of the Select Committee report. That stated:
  "we were dismayed to find that, seven years after the first major oil price increases, the Department of Energy has no clear idea of whether investing around £1,300 million in a single nuclear plant… is as cost effective as spending a similar sum to promote energy conservation."
  It went on to say:
  "We therefore recommend that the Department of Energy should assess in future … the economics of public expenditure to promote energy conservation, with the same rigour"—
  that is important—
  "as that required for the economic appraisal of new generating plant."
  Coupled with this subject is the whole issue of alternative sources of energy. I return to that phrase "the same rigour". When I ask Ministers of both Governments—I am not particularly criticising my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on this occasion—there seems to be a lack of commitment by the Department of Energy and related public bodies to carrying out a meaningful and sufficiently diverse investment programme into alternative sources of energy. For example, the figures for the amount of money ploughed into investment in alternative sources make a pitiful comparison with the resources devoted to nuclear energy.
  Insufficient attention has been given to alternatives such as water and wind, tidal and solar energy. Numerous small examples of successful alternative energy sources already exist. There is some evidence that they could be developed on a more extensive scale. I should like some commitment from the Government far greater than hitherto. Perhaps such alternative sources, or the conservation of energy investment, are not so economic, but for as long as the powers that be demonstrate their obvious reluctance to investigate, and thus allow us laymen to evaluate the comparative costs of the various sources, they cannot complain if we remain sceptical of the figures that they provide.
  I welcome the Secretary of State's announcement about widening the terms of reference of the Sizewell public inquiry. It was right that he should do so, but I wish to refer to the position of those who are opposed to the scheme and, in particular, to financing their ability to express a point of view. This subject was mentioned by the Minister in his recent announcement in the House and during the debate. I make no apology for this matter in the context of what might be a regional issue in the West country.
  The CEGB is exploring five possible sites for a nuclear power station. One of them happens to be in Luxulyan in my constituency. The CEGB has already said that if it finds that none of the five sites is suitable for its

  47
  requirements, its reserve position is that it will return to a site at Millbrook, which also happens to be in my constituency, where a planning consent is outstanding for an oil-fired power station.
  The Secretary of State for Energy in the previous Government, the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East, took a decision in 1976 or 1977. I do not quibble with that decision. He said that he would give no more loan sanction for the building of oil-fired power stations. That means that if the CEGB has to revert to the Millbrook site, it will require a further planning consent for a change of use to a coal-fired power station. Perhaps people will object to that.
  My argument is that, for the second time in a decade, the people in that locality will have to go through the ritual of raising the necessary funds, and all that goes with it, to express their democratic view. I have had conversations with my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst), whose constituency includes the Stansted area—I realise that that does not involve a power station, but the principle is the same. Those of his constituents who are opposed to the extension of the airport facilities there are being subjected to the same exercise for the third time in 15 years. That puts a considerable strain on the local people, particularly when one remembers that Government Departments, public corporations or other agencies making proposals have vast resources to spend on maximising the effect of the evidence that they present, not only at the public inquiry but in their so-called education of the local electorate beforehand.
  I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will not dismiss this point, about which I have expressed my concern. I hope that he will not regard my views generally as being subjective or populist. The Government, in the light of their response to the Select Committee's report today and before that, in their White Paper, still have much convincing to do to try to persuade those who are apprehensive that the further development of nuclear power is the most appropriate way of solving our future energy requirements. The Secretary of State's response today still leaves uneasy many of us who have reservations. I believe that he has to improve the quality and the merits of his case before he will convert a wide section of the population, which is apprehensive about a number of facets of the United Kingdom nuclear power programme.
  5.30 pm
  Mr. David Penhaligon: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) who said little with which I disagree. It is also a pleasure for once to follow the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) who also said very little with which I disagree. I had always thought that the right hon. Gentleman and I had little in common other that the fact that we are teetotal, which makes us a little unusual in the House of Commons.
  I have attended a number of nuclear debates since my election in October 1976. There are probably three hurdles over which nuclear power has to jump before it becomes an acceptable method of generating power on a sizeable scale. I do not put these hurdles in order of preference, although the first is certainly the first preference. The supreme criterion is whether nuclear power is safe. Even if nuclear generation was discovered to cost one third less
  48
  than any other method of power production, but was demonstrably unsafe, few hon. Members would argue that it should become the mainstay of our productive capacity.
  The second test must be whether it makes commercial sense to invest significant sums of money in this method of generating electricity. The third test, covered admirably by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East, is whether the effect on civil liberties is acceptable when set against the claimed advantages of nuclear power.
  It will be no surprise to hon. Members to learn that, on safety, I am among those who, to put it mildly, are not convinced. I have outlined the argument a dozen times since I was elected and I do not wish to make the matter the main thrust of my remarks, but it is worth simply putting it on record. On the disposal of nuclear material, the Government have given up. They do not even pretend any longer that a solution can be found in the medium term. Given the facts as I understand them, that is probably the rational decision to have made. I have never believed the problem to be immediately soluble even if various nuclear experts and Secretaries of State have argued otherwise.
  The apparent scenario is that the matter is to be kept in storage for what will undoubtedly be the bulk of the remainder of my lifetime—I am younger than many hon. Members—and that there will be another Government attempt at the turn of the century to solve the problem of disposing of nuclear material. I must say, in view of the technical problems, that this is a realistic position.
  One recalls the incident at Three Mile Island, leaks at Windscale, and cracks in the French PWRs. There has been virtually constant derating of the nuclear reactors that are built. Just one nuclear reactor in the United Kingdom has its design output. Most reactors have been derated. The percentages vary. Some have been derated by up to 30 per cent. for good engineering and technical reasons. The indication is, however, that the design has fallen significantly short of what was originally hoped.
  It would be possible to expand the safety arguments if there were sufficient time. I hope that there will be further discussions of these matters during the debate. My colleagues and I on the Liberal Bench warmly welcome the inquiry into Sizewell. This is the only intelligent and realistic approach to a matter of enormous technical complexity. Even those who are technically qualified blanch before some of the problems. I should have thought that the Minister would be able to state, as a minimum position, that the inquiry would be wide ranging to the extent that there was no limit on what could be raised. I drew attention to this issue during the questions that followed last week's statement in the House when the Minister gave a blank "No" to a request that financial assistance be given to those presenting an argument at the inquiry.
  If the Government really want the inquiry to satisfy some of those who have fundamental doubts about the whole philosophy of the expansion of nuclear power, they must not enable those who wish to protest to say that if only they had possessed the capacity to employ the best nuclear scientists to investigate the problems the argument would not have emerged as it did. I say that as someone who is not on the Government's side. They must not give my side of the argument that excuse if the public inquiry results in the PWR being approved.
  The hon. Member for Bodmin compared the issue to an airport. I do not compare it to an airport. This is a

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  fundamental inquiry into an entire technology and the whole concept of whether the proposed development is safe. There have been previous inquiries about the merits of locating an airport in one place or another. There has never before been an inquiry into the technical merits of a nuclear reactor and system. The Government's position is untenable. If they do not respond to what I say, they will face enormous and increasing pressure over the next 12 months.
  There must be a parliamentary debate at the end of the inquiry. To have no parliamentary debate would mean that the public inquiry is given a status in the decision making process of this country that I, as an elected Member of the House, am not prepared to give. In the final analysis, right or wrong, the decision must rest on the heads of elected Members of the House. There must not be the excuse in 15 or 20 years time that a public inquiry ruled that the situation was satisfactory without a parliamentary debate taking place.
  I implied in my opening remarks that I wished to make some remarks about the economics of nuclear power. The sums under discussion are beyond the comprehension of most hon. Members. One estimate is that a PWR will cost £1 billion. Another estimate is £1.5 billion. I suspect that, when the crunch arrives, it will probably be even higher. Hon. Men fibers are throwing around pluses and minuses of astronomical proportions. The sum of £1 billion represents virtually £20 for every man, woman and child in the United Kingdom. It is an enormous sum. It must represent, if not the biggest, almost the biggest Government financial investment of all time in our country. It is an extremely large sum, especially if one enters upon a full programme of 10.
  It has been argued over the years that nuclear power in France is much cheaper. If that is the case, the argument goes, the economy of France benefits, and the United Kingdom has been foolish not to follow along the same avenue. I see that the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) nods in great approval. When this argument has been put to me on previous occasions, it has rocked me on my heels because I did not know the answer. I have now had the chance to make some inquiries. It appears that the French, who have fascinating methods of working out what is or is not profitable, have allocated no research and development costs to the nuclear programme. They have managed to achieve the not inconsiderable triumph of writing off these costs lock, stock and barrel. No one seems sure how the bill has been paid. The French are certain, however, that it is not the nuclear electricity generating, industry.
  In the costings often given in the House, no allowance is provided for cost overruns in building the plant. The figures given to hon. Members assume that the nuclear power plants have been built to the original "guesstimate" which, as hon. Members know, in the construction of nuclear power stations, is a "guesstimate" indeed. There is no allowance in the costing for plant delays and—even more amusing—there is no allowance for the 20 per cent. average derating to which the average French stations have been subjected because of difficulty with cracking in some of the pipe circuits. Nor is there an allowance for the fall in the real value of the franc. All those items make it more expensive than most other sorts of power.
  However, even more amazing, because the French are worried about assurance of supply from the nuclear system, they now feel that it is necessary to keep their
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  remarkable hydroelectric scheme at full potential. Every dam in France is full of water, virtually all the time; they are afraid to use their hydroelectric system as they used it previously, because if some of the nuclear stations deteriorated further they would have only hydroelectricity from which to get the power they need. No allowance is included in their costing of nuclear power.
  The final argument that made me decide that I do not want nuclear power a la French Government is that they apparently operate a 15 per cent. discount for all those people who use electricity within 50 miles of each nuclear power station because it is said to be cheaper. That may be so, but I notice that they do not offer electricity 15 per cent. cheaper within the area of each of the hydroelectric dams. Whatever the merits of nuclear against coal or gas, no hon. Member pretends other than that the cheapest form of electricity generation, if the geographical structure allows it, is hydroelectricity. It is simply a discount to make nuclear generation popular.
  The nuclear industry in Britain has previously committed itself to a massive expenditure which it feels compelled to justify. For example, the CEGB report for 1979–80—which I read with interest; indeed, some parts of it with fascination—concluded that the power produced from the Hinkley Point B AGR is cheaper than the power produced by the Drax A power station. Drax A was built on time and to cost, which was good. Hinkley Point B is a running joke. It was six years late in completion. It was derated by 20 per cent. relative to its original design specification, yet the CEGB still claims that the power produced is cheaper. If it is true that a six years' delay in coming on stream and a 20 per cent. derating can still produce electricity cheaper than a modern coal-fired station, why on earth are we looking into PWRs? If AGRs can be built on time and to rating specifications, electricity would be so cheap that people would be paid to take the power away.
  The figures that were published for the year I read about gave Drax A 1.52p pence per kilowatt and Hinkley Point B 1.35p. Some friends of mine, who call themselves the Committee for the Study of the Economics of the Nuclear Industry, have produced a report, but tragically its publication date is tomorrow at 2.30. However, they have let me have a copy. It goes to show how much better informed the nuclear industry is than those who oppose it—all the propaganda about how safe the PWR is landed on our desk on Wednesday last—and how much at a disadvantage are those who argue for the alternative.
  In this report, which I am sure the Minister will study with great interest, the eminent people who wrote it have analysed the costs. They believe that if allowance is made in the original investment in Hinkley Point B for inflation, for the overruns and delays that have taken place, if one corrects for fuel costs, bearing in mind that the fuel for the station was in store for many years because it was not required and if one estimates the real reprocessing costs that are likely and how much it will cost to take the station apart—largely guesswork, because to date no one has done that—the cost of power from Hinkley Point B is brought up to 2.44p per kW against Drax at 1.69p, if the same adjustments for inflation are made.
  I find these reports compiled by eminent people extremely disturbing. Until we are given far better information than we have now, we should reject this tremendous investment in nuclear energy on the ground of cost alone.

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  What about the alternatives? The hon. Member for Bodmin talked about conservation. A big conservation programme would be politically popular. It might appeal to the Government for that reason at the moment, if for no other reason. It appears that various scenarios can make a return on capital within a period of two to seven years. The best evidence is when someone has done something. The Tennessee valley authority is offering to insulate 400,000 homes at a cost of $200 million. It believes that in that way it can avoid building a power station at a cost of $1.5 billion. I am a great believer in the man who puts his money where his mouth is. Why cannot similar arguments apply to the entire nuclear project that has been put to the House?
  Mr. Palmer: Surely the real difficulty for American utilities is the high rate of interest that they have to pay as a result of their Government's policy.
  Mr. Penhaligon: Interest rates are not exactly low in this country. On average over the past 10 years, our rates of interest have been higher than those in the United States. Many of the figures produced in favour of nuclear power stations look good because the figures used by the Central Electricity Generating Board, in compounding its interest on the original capital investment, are vastly less than those which anyone in commerce could have obtained. I respect very much the engineering knowledge of the hon. Gentleman, but I suspect that his argument operates in the other direction.
  A number of scenarios have been put forward on energy conservation, many of which suggest that we could save energy more cheaply than we can produce it. Scenarios have been put forward in my region, the South-West, suggesting that we could save 5 per cent. of the South-West Electricity Board's supplies if we went over to gas for space heating—if the entire South-West went over to gas, the total use of that material in the United Kingdom would be unlikely to increase by more than about 1½ per cent.—and if we had a massive insulation scheme for roofs, walls, and draught proofing. That list of items should be the other way round: draught proofing should come first and the others follow. I recollect one village sub post office where most of the letters were pushed under the door, not through the letter boxes, and I often wondered how much heat was lost under the door. An insulation scheme of that size could save other energy sources of perhaps four times the value saved by the electricity board.
  These questions have not been investigated, and the House has not been given enough information to quantify them. I hope that the Sizewell inquiry will provide the House with the facts and figures so that it can make a reasonable decision.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures should take more serious account of the fact that nuclear power stations, because of the insistence upon green field sites, cannot contribute significantly by way of district heating to the savings on the other side, whereas the development of many of the existing urban coal-fired power stations, such as the one at Blyth in Northumberland, can make that provision?
  Mr. Penhaligon: I appreciate my hon. Friend's intervention greatly. As he knows, it is not uncommon for
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  such a statement to come from the Liberal Bench, and I am certain that it is valid. It is obvious that if coal-fired stations were put nearer to our large cities, they could provide the energy for district heating schemes. I can never understand why we have not spent large sums of money on district heating or, as I prefer to call them, waste heat schemes, before now.
  My final argument relates to the South-West. The case for building a nuclear power station in my county is that the electricity that it produces will be cheaper than that produced by a coal-fired station. I have questioned that and I hope the Minister will be able to study the report on which my observations were based.
  Even if the Government's figures are correct and even if the output of a PWR station is between 15 and 18 per cent. cheaper than that of the best British coal-fired power station, given the geography of the peninsula of my beloved county, if we built a coal-fired station and imported the coal from Poland, the United States of America, Australia or even South Africa—although for other reasons I would not go there to look for it—will not the Minister admit that that would represent the cheapest power generated by the thermal process anywhere in the United Kingdom? If that is so, why is it logical to build nuclear as opposed to British coal-fired stations when apparently it is not logical to consider running power stations on imported coal?
  5.52 pm
  Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: I hope that the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) will acquit me of any discourtesy if I do not take up in detail his interesting analysis of the comparative costs of nuclear energy and the power produced by conventional coal-fired stations. However, the hon. Gentleman quoted figures to show that the Central Electricity Generating Board found that even the AGR system, with all the complexities and problems to which he drew our attention, generated cheaper electricity than conventional coal-fired stations.
  Apparently the hon. Gentleman felt that that was true. But if the CEGB wishes to consider the PWR system, which in other countries somehow produces electricity rather cheaper than we can, I do not see why the hon. Gentleman pours such scorn and scepticism on the proposal. Surely it is sensible to take up the views of those whose prime responsibility is to generate electricity, to put them to the test and to welcome the fact that they are trying to find ways of producing power at competitive prices for the well-being of the country. In my view, that alone does not justify the scorn with which the hon. Member for Truro approaches the subject.
  Mr. Penhaligon: I do not really believe the CEGB's analysis. In any event, would the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith) describe as open and forthcoming the CEGB's attitude over the years to divulging its detailed calculations on the relative merits of the two types of station?
  Mr. Johnson Smith: The hon. Member for Truro should be more forthcoming as a result of the CEGB's experience, the results of public inquiries, the report of the Select Committee, and so on. I am conscious of how much more forthcoming all of us will have to be. We shall have to dispel much of our prejudice and ignorance before the Sizewell inquiry is completed.

  53
  I congratulate the Government warmly, as I do previous Governments, who, on questions involving great public debate, scepticism and fear, have willingly conceded that the public inquiry system for the rigorous examination of this industry is in the public interest. The Windscale inquiry was a model, and I have little doubt that the inquiry to come will be another. The more that prejudice is generated along the lines that we have heard in the debate so far, the more I wish that the inquiry could be held sooner.
  I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) has left the Chamber. I for one would not want to see the country's total energy needs solely dependent on nuclear power, for reasons that I shall go into in a moment, but when the right hon. Gentleman argues that it is the fear of nuclear proliferation which now prevents any warm welcome from him to some sort of dependence on nuclear power, and when he suggests that more people will have nuclear weapons as a result of building nuclear power stations, he knows as well as I do that that is not true. Countries can develop nuclear weapons without going through the expensive process of building nuclear power stations. What is more, if that argument prevails with him now, why did not the same argument prevail when he was Secretary of State for Energy?
  Mr. David Ennals: I agree with all that the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith) says about the importance of the Sizewell inquiry. Does not that lead him to the conclusion that the proposals put forward from both sides of the House that there should be some financial support for the objectors to, as well as for the supporters of, the proposal would ensure a more balanced presentation of the case so that a more balanced judgment could be reached?
  Mr. Johnson Smith: The respective cases were put forward powerfully at the Windscale inquiry despite the fact that anyone who wanted money was unable to obtain it from Government sources. However, if an inspector conducting a public inquiry of the importance of Sizewell felt that for any reason any significant body of opinion found it impossible to obtain funds and thereby was unable to present As case, I have no doubt that that would emerge very clearly and that support would be forthcoming. Equally, I am convinced that the Government will not run away from a full parliamentary debate leading to parliamentary approval or disapproval of any findings reached at a public inquiry.
  I wish to concentrate mainly on the safety aspects of nuclear generation. Before doing that, however, I ought to declare my general position. I believe that some addition to our nuclear energy is necessary. That being so, I find the arguments for further investment extremely powerful. On the basis of the facts before the country at present, I believe that successive generations would accuse us of being short-sighted and pusillanimous and of acting immorally if we ran away from the need for nuclear power on the ground that there was in the immediately foreseeable future some alternative form of energy which would be an adequate and competitive substitute for existing sources of energy.
  Whatever the risks associated with nuclear energy, in my judgment doing without nuclear energy would impose an even greater risk on the well-being of our people.
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  In this and previous debates tribute has been paid to the remarkable safety record of the nuclear industry but, paradoxically, the industry is a victim of its success, despite that record. At the heart of the paradox is the fact that the more that the nuclear industry emphasises the importance that it attaches to its safety procedures, the more it arouses doubts and suspicions about the safety of nuclear reactors. The public tend to ask "If they really are as safe as all that, why spend so much time on safety and on reassuring us that nuclear reactors are a viable risk?"
  The reason is explained in what has been described as the "what if" factor—what if something goes wrong, what if there is a fault in the coolant system and it does not work? It does not take too much imagination to think of all kinds of horrors, including the melting of nuclear cores, the China syndrome, mass irradiation, explosions and so on.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House know that we do not apply the "what if" factor to anything like the same extent to other technologies where catastrophic accidents can and have occurred, especially in the chemical industry. If we applied the "what if" factor with the same scepticism to the aviation industry or to the aeroplane, for example, I doubt whether any of us would ever fly.
  If we are to persuade public opinion that society can live with the nuclear reactor, it is worth speculating on the reason for this difference in attitude and what can be done about it. First, most hon. Members would probably agree that people are familiar with many of the technologies that can cause serious or catastrophic accidents. They are certainly familiar with aviation. Those techiologies, although dangerous, have been around for a long time. Secondly, it is probably more difficult to reassure the public and to explain about nuclear reactors, because they fear that an accident might be very serious and out of all proportion—in its environmental effects—to anything other than a natural hazard such as a serious earthquake or something worse than that.
  The third factor has nothing directly to do with nuclear reactors, but reflects the general tone of the speech made by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East. I refer to the point that the way in which nuclear reactors are perceived has much to do with the fact that people link atomic power with its military uses and the problems of nuclear proliferation and waste.
  Opinions differ widely. It is vital to have the highest and most rigid standards, particularly for nuclear waste. Such standards cannot be dismissed. However, it is probably possible to confuse people by dwelling on such issues when the heart of the matter is the safety of nuclear reactors, particularly PWRs. There are probably people on the streets who tend to think that there is a pretty good chance that a nuclear power plant could explode like a bomb. It cannot, because the fissile material inside is not sufficiently concentrated.
  More specifically, following the accident at Three Mile Island, fears have arisen about PWRs. I do not wish to minimise the problems that that accident created or the need to assure ourselves that we shall not impose an unnecessary risk on our population by building a PWR. However, if we are to make a sensible and rational choice it is essential—especially when dealing with technology that is unfamiliar to the public—to take every precaution

  55
  to get the facts right and to respect them, however unpalatable they may be. Three Mile Island can teach us a valuable lesson in that respect.
  For example, we now know that the human factor played a key part in the accident and that that attracted the attention of President's commission. It emphasised not only the quality of design—although, rightly, we are considering that—but such matters as the training of operators, the enforcement of safety regulations and the adequacy of emergency reponse plans. We now know that no one was injured and that the frightening hydrogen bubble that we read so much about could not have exploded. The releases of the radioactive isotopes were monitored and the public's exposure to the accident has the potential of causing less than one death in the next 30 or 40 years.
  In our concern with safety, it is only too easy to become victims of information that feeds prejudice, scares the public and turns out to be incorrect. As we all know, it is the assertion that attracts the headline and when the issue has died down the denials and the truth that then emerge are relegated to the back page or are conveniently forgotten by those who made the original charges. The handling of the information by the authorities involved in the Three Mile Island incident leaves much to be desired, and the fault does not lie wholly with the media.
  If the public are to accept the further development of nuclear power, three points must be emphasised. First, the answers to the "what if" questions are virtually meaningless unless accompanied by reference to the probability of an accident. Many of the answers that the public receive for their fears and doubts do not carry conviction, because the risk is hardly ever assessed in quantitative terms. I hope that the Minister will assure us that where possible the Government will insist that answers are given in quantitative terms. In that way, they will make sense.
  Secondly, much more needs to be done to demonstrate that much of the technology that goes into nuclear power plants is straightforward, tried and tested. We now know—although I doubt whether the wider public know—that nuclear technology shares, with other advanced technologies, the fact that the probability of an accident decreases with the accident's severity. A malfunction in a nuclear plant does not necessarily trigger a serious accident any more than the hundreds and thousands of malfunctions that take place every day in our aeroplanes lead to scores of even minor accidents.
  Thirdly, there is a job that hon. Members can do. We are all conscious of the need to insist on having not only the proper institutional framework to ensure the public's protection—I include the needs of workers in such industries—but also sufficient people trained to analyse the problems posed by the nuclear power industry and to perform the task laid down by Parliament. In that respect I welcome the attention drawn by the Select Committee to the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate and the Minister's response.
  However confused we may have been about the production of nuclear power, we have been single-minded in our pursuit of enforcing safety regulations. We have prided ourselves on being well served by our institutions, nuclear scientists and engineers. No country has stricter standards or people with greater integrity to uphold them.
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  I say that without chauvinism. If we are to go ahead with a modest nuclear programme—no one is talking about one every year, or whatever the CEGB's original suggestion was—and if the public are to be persuaded that that is the right policy, we must all, as a matter of prime importance, give those who work in the industry our confidence. By that, I do not mean blind confidence.
  On the whole, democracies find it difficult to deal with technological problems that have a strong social content. We rightly insist that war is too important to be left to the generals and British generals have accepted that and operate under the civil power. Nevertheless, in military matters there is a line—not always easily definable, but nevertheless recognisable—at which Ministers and hon. Members depend on our military leaders for technical and professional advice, and information and guidance. We understand how important it is, for their morale and for public morale, to have confidence in the integrity of professional advisers.
  If we want the debate to continue at the level to which we are entitled, we should be prepared to impart that confidence to those who have to make the decisions in the next few years. That must be done unless hon. Members have specific criticisms. Too often debates on nuclear power in other countries have sadly deteriorated through the use of public demonstrations, and inaccurate, emotional and superficial assertions and have destroyed the quality of authoritative advice, based on the most careful and dedicated research. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race) may scoff. He should not scoff at specific advice.
  Those who serve the industry have served us well. The reputation of those such as Dr. Marshall deserves something better than scoffing. Nothing is more likely to destroy the candour that can exist between scientists, professional people and ourselves than failing to take the trouble to understand the technical arguments and hiding our criticisms behind a cloak of ignorance. We should, therefore, take on that responsibility.
  In a democracy such as ours, the public expect us—as their representatives—to explain the gains and risks. The job cannot be left to experts. Everything depends—in this matter, as in others—on the balance of risks. Whether we stay at home or go for a ride in the car is a balance of risk. Scientists and engineers do not ask us to take the risks of nuclear power while they remain immune, because they work in the plants where the need for vigilance is ever-present. President Carter is reported as having said that the energy crisis is the "moral equivalent of war". All wars involve risk, but to win the war of the energy crisis we shall, in my view, need nuclear power.
  Several Hon. Members rose— —
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Every right hon. and hon. Member now on the Back Benches, except the Parliamentary Private Secretary and the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), who has already addressed the House, wishes to make a speech. Right hon. and hon. Members can help each other and I hope that they will.
  6.10 pm
  Mr. David Ennals: I agree with hardly any of the conclusions reached by the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith). I congratulate the Select Committee, which took an approach different from

  57
  that taken by the hon. Gentleman, and I welcome its report. It has given the House the opportunity to consider a crucial issue. The Government's response did not do justice to the strength of the arguments contained in the Select Committee's report.
  The Select Committee was critical of every forecast of the scale of the expansion of nuclear power capacity. Part of the Government's reply states:
  "The electricity supply industry had advised that, even on cautious assumptions, they saw a need to order at least one new nuclear power station a year in the decade from 1982 or some 15 gigawatts over 10 years, and the Government accept that orders of this magnitude represented a reasonable prospect for planning purposes."
  It is clear that there is an ambitious and extensive programme, although it is true that the reply later states:
  "at the present time it does not believe that developments since 1979 justify any major policy reappraisal, subject as before to flexibility over the precise timing of individual orders."
  The Government, on the advice of the Central Electricity Generating Board, seem to be planning a rate of growth of energy demand that goes well beyond any reasonable assessment. There is already massive overcapacity. Even allowing for a 20 per cent. margin and nuclear power closures, existing plant could meet electricity demand until 1996. The only demand argument for a new nuclear power programme is based on a rapid rise in annual peak demand for electricity, which seems to be wildly unlikely, or on the premature closure of several efficient and viable coal-fired power stations, which none of us would want to see.
  I congratulate the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd) on his role as Chairman of the Select Committee. However, when he stated his personal views he went outside the Select Committee's conclusions. In presenting the Committee's report, he observed that the most striking example of existing over-capacity is in Scotland, where in 1979–80 capacity was 74 per cent. above the winter peak demand. However, another nuclear power station is under construction in Scotland. In 1979–80 the economy was expanding. That was before the advent of the Government's approach to economic management began to have its impact.
  The energy demand forecasts that formed the basis for massive investment decisions in the past, including the period of the previous Labour Government, turned Out to be unrealistic. Hundreds of millions of pounds of public money were committed to unnecessary power station construction. That expenditure may have seemed right at the time but I agree with the assessments and conclusions of the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) and the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks).
  Paragraph 96 of the Select Committee's report states:
  "Enormous past nuclear investments have had exceptionally low productivity; great resources have been used with little direct return and a serious net loss."
  The report says:
  "The various problems with the AGR programme so far … have imposed directly on the electricity consumer and indirectly on the taxpayer".
  These have amounted to a wholly avoidable burden. That is clear language and it was not taken up by the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo.
  The assumptions of the 1950s and 1960s that nuclear power would be cheap have proved to be wrong and we must learn from our experience. The CEGB found that electricity produced by Magnox, the first generation of
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  nuclear reactors, was nearly 50 per cent. more expensive than electricity produced by coal. The second generation of reactors, the AGR, proved also to be far more costly than had been estimated. By March 1981 only four out of the 10 British designed air-cooled reactors ordered between 1965 and 1970 had come into operation, and all at well below their designed output.
  When the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo presented the report of the Select Committee he likened the Government's massive PWR programme to what he called three of the Trident missile programmes. He said:
  "it … represents a pre-emption of a large slice of the nation's resources which might otherwise be available for investments in other parts of the economy."
  We are taking decisions concerning massive sums which would be better used to boost housing, health, social service and education programmes apart from heating insulation and research into energy conservation.
  The Government are committed to the PWR programme. However, after the Sizewell inquiry it may be that the programme cannot continue. We must ensure that the inquiry is properly conducted and that decisions are based on the evidence that is presented at the inquiry.
  The most important arguments stem from the safety factors, which I think are dealt with rather inadequately in paragraphs 102 to 109 of the Select Committee's report. We are dealing with the same type of reactor as the one installed on Three Mile Island. I do not accept the argument of the hon. Member for East Grinstead that we do not have to consider the "what if" factors. What if things went really wrong? How could we forgive ourselves if we were to take decisions that caused great damage to humanity? The hon. Gentleman cannot compare these decisions with any others that have been taken.
  The problems that have been experienced have not been confined to Three Mile Island. Cracks have appeared in the critical parts of PWR heavy steel pressure vessels in France, Sweden, the Soviet Union and Western Germany as well as in other reactors in the United States.
  Mr. Johnson Smith: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to mislead himself or the House. I was arguing that the "what if" factor is an important issue and should be dealt with accordingly. Perhaps it could be dealt with more effectively if the answers quantified the possibility of an accident.
  Mr. Ennals: I am glad of that reassurance. Safety factors will he fundamental at the Sizewell inquiry. They will be fundamental to the conclusion reached by the inspector, which will be accepted by the House. We dare not avoid safety factors. Sizewell is not in my constituency but Norwich is not so many miles away. The hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Gummer) also has a great interest. I agree with one of the points that he made in the questioning that took place on 20 January.
  According to the British Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, the number of casualties in a possible PWR accident in the United Kingdom would be about 10 times greater than for a similar accident in America because of our greater population density. Therefore, the safety factor must concern all those who live within a 35-mile radius of Sizewell. Of course, the decision on Sizewell will set the pattern for PWRs in other parts of Britain. In addition, procedures for evacuating the total population, which are accepted in America, would probably not be practicable in the United Kingdom.

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  In a 10-mile radius of the Sizewell site, there are about 50 small settlements and villages. Within a 35-mile radius, there are several major population centres, including Ipswich and Norwich. Studies in America and Sweden suggest that 10 miles should be allowed for total evacuation in the event of an accident and 50 miles for radioactive contamination. If we limit the contamination area to 35 miles, we take in Norwich, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft, Ipswich, Harwich, Stowmarket and many small towns and villages in East Anglia.
  We must take the safety factor seriously. That is why I welcomed the decision announced by the Secretary of State on 20 January that the date of the Sizewell inquiry will be about 12 months from now. I especially welcomed the fact that he gave the dates of the safety studies. The CEGB will publish its safety report in April and the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate will publish its report in June. Those on all sides of the argument will have an opportunity to examine with great care the propositions that are put forward. There are many safety factors. I remember writing to the previous Secretary of State in March 1981 listing 14 safety factors about which we must satisfy ourselves before we proceed with the programme that the Government have outlined.
  I welcome also the comments by the hon. Member for Sudbury and Woodbridge (Mr. Stainton) and the hon. Member for Eye. I welcome the points made by the hon. Member for Bodmin, the hon. Member for Truro and my hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans), who argued, as I have, that both sides should have financial support to ensure that there is a fair presentation. Some of those who challenge and criticise and who wish to extract the truth are voluntary organisations without the same resources at their disposal as the CEGB. I was glad that the Secretary of State, when questioned about the matter, said that he was willing to listen to what was said in the debate and that he would reconsider the matter. I hope that he does so.
  6.24 pm
  Mr. Peter Rost: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd) on his excellent contribution to the debate. I am sorry that you had to miss it, Mr. Speaker, but it gave an excellent example of the sort of leadership that we had in the Select Committee. The work that my hon. Friend has done in guiding us has been instrumental in the successes that we are achieving in some of our work.
  Secondly, I refer to the help that we have had from our team of advisers. I am well aware that the response to the report in the media might lead some of us to believe that the expertise helped to confuse rather than to enlighten the Committee, but that is not my view. Without their advice, many of us would have found it difficult to have drawn conclusions from so much conflicting evidence.
  The report has undoubtedly been gravely misunderstood in certain quarters. Some of that misrepresentation in the media has reflected upon the prejudices of some hon. Members, from one or two of whom we have heard today. One example is a headline in the The Daily Telegraph of 19 February, above an article written by Roland Gribben, which stated
  "MPs seek cutback in 'too ambitious' atom power plants".
  Nothing in the report suggests a cutback. The headline is completely misleading. David Fishlock, in the Financial Times, said:
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  "It was not even clear to the journalists who gathered for the report's first public appearance whether this Committee was in favour of nuclear energy or against it."
  That is a most extraordinary comment from someone as respected and well informed as David Fishlock, who must have been fully aware that the members of the Committee are in favour of civil nuclear power and expressed that in no uncertain terms in the report.
  We had some similar misrepresentation which, in my view, did nothing to enhance the prestige of the respectable press in Britain. We had other comments from the media that seemed to get the message. Perhaps those reporters read the report. Theirs appeared to be a more balanced judgment, as shown especially by Peter Rogers in The Sunday Times of 22 February.
  I do not wish to attack the media. I never do so. I let them attack me, which is far more rewarding. The report was not anti-nuclear and should not have been interpreted as such, unless those who commented upon it were not prepared to read the report fully.
  The Government's response to our report fully acknowledges the point that I make, because the Government support of our recommendations confirms that the report was not against the nuclear programme. The report was perhaps against the way in which we have messed up our nuclear programme during the past years. It tried to highlight a number of doubts about the way in which we have set about our nuclear programme. If we had not set out those doubts, we would have been failing in our duty to Parliament and to the public and we would have omitted the fundamental responsibility for which the Select Committee was established—that of drawing attention to areas that should be of public concern. Therefore, the main gist of our report was to cast doubt on the ability so far displayed in Britain to build nuclear power stations on time and to cost. We simply considered the evidence. If people do not like the evidence, no doubt they will come to a different conclusion. However, the evidence was that we have been lamentably inadequate in building nuclear power stations to time and to cost. We expressed the doubt that, unless we can get it right, there is not much point in going on. That is not being against the nuclear programme, although it may be critical of the way in which we have done it so far.
  Secondly, we cast much doubt on the ability of our nuclear industry under the present system to build nuclear power stations cheaper than they are built and operated in other countries against whom we must compete in order to survive and maintain our living standards.
  Although the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) seems to doubt the evidence, there is no question but that, allowing for all the contingencies and costings, nuclear power is cheaper than oil-fired or coal-fired power. But that is only half the problem. Unless our nuclear power is at least remotely competitive with nuclear power building programmes in France, Germany and Japan, we might as well pack up; we would continue to deprive ourselves of the vital competitive advantage that we need.
  Because our electricity prices are higher than in other countries, industries have suffered, jobs have been lost and the whole economy has been handicapped. That is not good enough. The Committee pointed out that on the evidence presented to it it was not convinced that our nuclear power stations could be built at a price and on a

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  time scale to make them competitive with other countries, and unless they were we should lose out. That was the main conclusion.
  The main issue in the report is not safety. Most of us took that aspect for granted on the evidence available. Nor is it whether nuclear power is cheaper than oil-fired or gas-fired power. The evidence on that could not be contradicted. The main issue is the price of electricity compared with our competitor countries. The damage to our economy and to industry is already too severe for us to embark on a major public investment that would not improve our competitiveness. That fact is accepted by the Government. Nor was the argument in Committee for or against a PWR programme. There, too, we accepted the Government's guidelines that we should build a PWR and see how we go.
  One of our strongest recommendations is that we should make up our mind what system of reactors we are to have, instead of messing around as we have done for the past 20 years. We shall then at least have one system, with the benefits of duplication and the economies of scale and cost. If it is a PWR, so be it.
  On the evidence presented to us the doubt was whether the PWR to be built in the United Kingdom would have the price advantage from which countries such as France and Germany are already benefiting. However, that is an argument not against the PWR but against carrying on as we have done so far. We must improve on the performance.
  I believe that the mistake or tragedy in our British nuclear programme was made in the early 1970s, particularly in 1973 and 1974, when we had one of the soul-searching reviews which we have had from time to time about the sort of reactor that we should develop. We did not convincingly commit ourselves, as we should have done, to building a PWR as an alternative to the AGR. Had we gone ahead then with the decision that was taken by the Government in 1979 we should at least now have the first PWR. Presumably it would have gone through its public inquiry and would be nearing completion if not in operation. We would have been in a position to judge whether it was safer and more efficient. We would also have had a trial PWR. We would not have been in the position of having to order two more AGRs, despite their disappointing performance and costing, just to keep the British nuclear industry alive.
  It is a disgrace that for 10 years there were no nuclear orders. The industry was desperate for them. That is why the Committee had to accept the fact that the industry needed an order quickly, and the only solution, therefore, was the AGR. We would not have been in that position. The country would have had the alternative of a PWR earlier, so that at least we could have measured one against the other, and a year ago have been able to decide whether to order more PWRs or AGRs. The decision would have been clear-cut on the evidence available. We now have to go through the process, and we shall not know for another two or three years at least whether the future will be for PWRs or more AGRs. I am convinced that it will be PWRs, bul we still have to prove that. It has been a great cost to our economy and competitive position that we are now so many years behind making the choice.
  Finally, a misunderstanding seems to have arisen over the arguments about over-capacity. The right hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) made a great deal of it, saying that we do not need more nuclear power
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  as we already have a surplus capacity of electricity. That is totally irrelevant. If we proceed properly nuclear power is far more efficient and cost-effective than coal or oil-fired power, so its provision is justified, regardless of the present excess capacity. It would allow us to phase out more costly and obsolete plants and so reduce the cost of electricity, which should be the primary objective. Moreover, by reducing the cost of electricity through an efficient nuclear power programme we could reverse the downward trend in demand and bring about growth which the French and other countries with efficient nuclear power programmes are experiencing.
  The CEGB continuously has to downgrade its estimates of electricity demand not just because of the economic recession but primarily because electricity is in a recession. It has priced itself out of the energy market because its costs have been higher than they need have been or would be if we had an efficient nuclear power programme.
  If we had more efficient nuclear power stations coming on stream or on the grid already, electricity would not he pricing itself out of the market. It would be fighting back and winning an increasing share of the energy market, in the same way that cheap North Sea gas has done—at the expense of electricity.
  It can be argued that we should go ahead with a nuclear programme just because it will lead to an expansion in electricity demand and more competitive prices. The tremendous benefits to the British economy and to the consumer are highlighted in the report and in the Government's response.
  The Government have responded to our report in a more constructive way than many of us dared hope. There is little difference between us on the fundamental issues. The problems facing the industry, which we have highlighted, and the doubts that we raised about the industry have been largely accepted by the Government. In particular, many of the criticisms that we made have been taken care of by the establishment of Dr. Walter Marshall's task force. That is an insurance policy and a move in the right direction that will ensure that our worst doubts, about the feasibility and economic viability of our first PWR and whether our industry's structure will be right at long last, will not prove to be justified. Therefore, that is an important constructive move that the Government have made in response to some of the doubts that we raised.
  The damage to the nuclear industry that some critics say resulted from our report is unbelievably difficult to discover. Some of the newspapers said that we set back the future of the nuclear industry by making some critical comments. I entirely dismiss that criticism. Anyone studying the report in detail must dismiss it, toe.
  The damage to the nuclear industry and to the economy will result not from a report by a Select Committee of Parliament but if we do not learn from our past errors. How can we learn from our past mistakes if we are not prepared to diagnose and analyse them and try to find sensible solutions? With that constructive approach adopted by our Select Committee, let us try to learn from the errors, indecision, shambles and squabbling and let us now go forward with a real commitment towards efficient and safe nuclear power.
  6.42 pm
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: I join the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost), who

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  serves with me on the Select Committee, in paying tribute to our chairman, the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), who led the Committee with great impartiality and diligence of the highest order.
  It is interesting that this should be the first report of the Select Committee on Energy, because 14 years ago there was another first report by the old Select Committee on Science and Technology, of which I was Chairman. It also dealt with the nuclear power industry. An outstanding difference between the two reports is that in the report of 1968 little attention was paid to any special safety problem connected with nuclear electricity production. It was simply another industrial process, even if it was novel.
  That was also a time when the Aldermaston marchers were on the roads with the slogan on their banners "Atoms for peace and not for war." In those days, the ancestors of those who protest strongly today against the use of nuclear power for peaceful purposes were in favour of it.
  The old Select Committee also looked at costs. In those days it was a question of the cost of unit output per power station. It was a matter of nuclear against coal against oil. That argument seems to have faded away.
  There has been much argument tonight about the exact cost of nuclear power against alternative sources. The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) confessed that he was a teetotaller. I hope that he never takes to drink. At times his figures seemed extraordinary and extravagant. I was surprised at my right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) because normally he is a fairly balanced and rational Member, with a reputation as a Minister. I could not follow his figures.
  From the point of view of the electricity supply authorities, nuclear power is the cheapest mode of production. I have the figures from the 1980–81 report. Electricity from the AGR at Hinkley Point costs 1.45p per kilowatt hour; Magnox is 1–65p; coal is 1.85p—not a great difference—and, as one expects, oil is 2.62p. That is not because there is any inherent merit in nuclear but because the cost of fossil fuels is rising all the time. Therefore, nuclear power, particularly when the stations were built a number of years ago, is cheaper. That fact cannot be denied.
  Sometimes I become a little weary with the business of knocking experts. I like the remark of the late Bertrand Russell, that experts can always be wrong but those who have studied a subject and who have had experience in its application are more likely to be right than those who have not done so.
  I want to look a little further into the question of cost in a more modern context than that of 1968. That is what the Select Committee did, no longer from the point of view of individual power stations, but looking at nuclear energy as a complementary source of electricity. When I refer to a complementary source of electricity I mean complementary to coal burning. That is of the greatest importance. The point should be well understood. For many years yet to come—well into the next century—the greater part of electricity will come from coal-fired power stations—the CEGB and the Scottish board.
  Despite the different costs of station production—which are not much—such are the economics of electricity supply in an inter-connected national grid such as ours that the result comes out reasonably well.
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  Nuclear stations can be kept on a base load while the coal-fired power stations—in which I have worked—which are quicker to run up and down can be used to follow the peak periods more closely.
  That is where the comparison with France tends to go wrong. It can be misleading because France has comparatively little coal and still depends enormously on imported oil. Therefore, it requires relatively more nuclear power to balance its hydrogeneration. Hydrogeneration in France fulfils to some extent the same role as coal-fired generation in this country.
  In the Select Committee we attempted to answer the main question about the Government's nuclear programme: how much nuclear and how soon? We felt that it was foolish and unrealistic to talk of a programme of 15,000 Mw over 10 years without delving more deeply and critically into the background assumptions, such as capital costs, load forecasting, conservation, and other possible sources that may come along such as the Severn barrage. I served on the Committee on that subject and I am much in favour of it, not just because I am a Bristol Member. We also looked into construction years on site.
  On Friday last I took the opportunity to visit that classic of power station delay, Dungeness B. It was some time since I had been in a power station of that size. I did not merely look at it from outside or study diagrams. I went down the ladder which reaches from the height of this Chamber into the very bowels of the reactor—it is not yet radioactive, I am glad to say—and I realised again what enormouss problems engineers and workmen face when constructing a nuclear power station. Thousands of welds have to be made in narrow spaces and great quantities of steel cladding must be put on. I suppose I have the prejudice of an engineer. I sometimes feel that not enough tribute is paid by hon. Members and others who work in comfortable surroundings to those at all levels of responsibility who build power stations and, indeed, any large construction of this type.
  It is often asked "Why are there so many delays?" There have been technical problems. Mistakes were made in the past, including the first arrangement of having the same design made by three or four different companies. That was a great blunder, which was pointed out by the Select Committee on Science and Technology in its time and which was later put right. Dungeness B has also had its share of labour troubles, but that is not peculiar to nuclear power stations. The Isle of Grain which is an oilfired power station has had the same difficulties with delays caused by labour disputes. I believe that better systems of payment have now been worked out.
  The Select Committee therefore decided that a programme of the size proposed in the statement by the former Secretary of State for Energy in December 1979 was not likely to be fulfilled and that it would be better to say so in the first place. Instead of talking so grandly about programmes, which is misleading, we should order each power station, as we always did, when it is required.
  I admit that that conclusion brings us face to face with a manufacturing difficulty if construction is to be mainly by British firms, which is the assumption. Manufacturing concerns cannot easily or profitably collect the necessary able designers, skilled workers or heavy labour unless there is a reasonable certainty of future orders. The problem of how power stations can be built as nearly as possible to exact requirements in such a way that the

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  manufacturing capacity can still be retained will not be fully solved until the Government and industry make up their minds on which reactor type to use.
  I blame the Secretary of State for many things, but I do not blame him too much for that. Like so many of his predecessors, he is just a passing phenomenon and will go in due course. As I have said before, there has been a lack of leadership on nuclear questions by Governments, as well as too much quarrelling and too many vested interests of one kind or another within the industry itself. That has been a bad feature of the British nuclear power industry.
  A decade ago, I favoured the development of our own water-cooled system—the steam-generating heavy water reactor—and felt that this could be done in concert with the Canadian CANDU reactor, as the system was broadly similar. After an earlier Select Committee had considered the matter, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley), then Secretary of State for Energy, decided to be bold and a start was made on the steam-generating heavy water system. A couple of years later, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), also a member of the same Labour Government, cancelled the programme, saying that it was not practicable and could not be done. In cancelling the steam-generating heavy water reactor, which was the only British water system, at the same time we destroyed all hope of collaboration with Canada.
  We cannot go back to that road now, although it is perhaps a great pity that it was not taken at that time. Therefore, I do not agree with other members of the Select Committee that we should look again at CANDU. The question now is whether we continue along the painful but now much better understood route with gas-cooled systems, or move over to the American PWR as the French did some time ago.
  The Secretary of State has announced the inquiry and it is right that there should be a delay of 12 months so that everyone can prepare evidence. But if it is to be a genuine inquiry, with no suggestion that the result is arranged or is to come about as the Government and the generating authorities want it in the end, one has to take the risk in the absolute that a pressurised water reactor system for this country may be rejected. In that case, there will be no alternative but to proceed with the AGR, which, in my judgment, will not be the loss that some people suppose.
  Broadly, the case for the PWR has rested on the assumption that it is simpler and cheaper and can in part by factory-made. A PWR built to British safety standards, however, will have to work on the British grid at 50 cycles, rather than 60 cycles as in the United States, which makes a considerable difference to various dimensions in the generators. The cost may be significantly different. The Select Committee thought that it might be 34 per cent. more expensive, and the CEGB is prepared to admit an increase of 20 per cent.
  As to factory construction of AGRs, I am glad to note that at long last the CEGB and the Scottish boards are being sensible and jointly meeting the cost of the brand new factories which will be needed to make the bits for the two new AGRs at Torness and Heysham. Mr. David Fishlock of the Financial Times, who has already been quoted in the debate, said on 16 November that more of the AGR may soon be made in factories than of the pressurised water reactors, with a further narrowing of the gap in the cost of the two systems.
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  For that reason, I believe that the instincts of those of us who divided the Select Committee—as the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo knows, we sat until after midnight on one occasion—in favour of recommending further AGR construction at Torness and Heysham were right. In any case, with a Government who preside over the shutting down of factories, I see no strong objection to factories being started up. Developments at Torness and Heysham are critical to employment, particularly on the North-East coast.
  What used to be called conservation is now known as demand management. That is perhaps slightly more scientific. The Select Committee is preparing a report on that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East said at the time of the Secretary of State's announcement of the inquiry that if we all insulated our lofts we would not need a nuclear programme. Unfortunately, I was unable to be present in the House to hear my right hon. Friend, but that is what I read in the newspapers.
  My right hon. Friend has had much experience in these matters, but I believe that that is something of a superficial view. It assumes that all space heating is powered by electricity, whereas more and more is served by natural gas. It also assumes that nuclear fission provides a fuel of last resort. Whether we obtain our electricity from coal, oil or nuclear generation or from sun grids, tides, waterfalls or windmills, it is important not to waste it. Therefore, the question of its origin is quite separate from the question of waste. Logically, the two should not be confused.
  I intended to say something about safety, but. I shall spare the House those reflections. My union—the Electrical Power Engineers Association—is perhaps closer to the nuclear question than any other comparable body. To a great extent, its members design these stations and certainly supervise their construction and operate them. Therefore, we have every interest in nuclear safety; hon. Members cannot possibly be in the same position of risk if there be one.
  In an earlier intervention I said that all the unions, particularly the EPEA, had worked closely with the boards. In fact, I represented my union on the original committee that drew up the safety rules for nuclear power stations.
  We were therefore concerned about the Three Mile Island accident and sent a representative to the United States to investigate the matter. We were doubtful whether the operational mistakes made there would have been made under the system for the control of power stations that we have in Britain. We have a far higher level of supervisor on the shift than the Americans, who have tended to skimp.
  I appreciate that there could be a nuclear power disaster, but such is the safety system surrounding nuclear power operation that it is highly unlikely. One stands a far greater risk of death on the roads than death from a nuclear accident. Indeed, the greatest single cause of death for young men under the age of 30 is now a road accident.
  We must keep these risks in proportion. Life is a fairly dangerous business anyhow. I echo what was said earlier. Judged by experience so far, nuclear technology has proved to be one of the safest technologies ever brought in by mankind.
  7.5 pm
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), who is Deputy Chairman of the Select Committee. I pay tribute to the Chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), and the other members of the Committee for bringing some important points before Parliament.
  Several years ago, I went to Canada and had a look at the CANDU system. I came to the conclusion that it would not be suitable for the United Kingdom. The heavy water process produces toxic effluent and we would require a heavy water plant to be located somewhere in the United Kingdom, otherwise we would have to import that essential material from Canada. That could lead to difficulties.
  When I returned, I made some recommendations to the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley), but he took the rather strange course of going for the steam-generated heavy water reactor, which was subsequently abandoned. I urge the Government to continue on the PWR course, which I consider the most satisfactory, and not take the advice of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) to run down the nuclear programme. The right hon. Gentleman authorised the PWR in 1978. If nuclear power was so fundamental to his philosophy, which I believe to be the case, why did he not resign from the Cabinet on that very date when it took the decision?
  Let us compare coal and nuclear power. It is a tragedy that recently there were 40 casualties at the Cardowan colliery. On the other hand, we have not yet had a fatality at a United Kingdom nuclear power station. There is no question about the safety of nuclear plants.
  I have three questions. How much nuclear capacity have our competitors? I take France, the United States and the United Kingdom as examples. In 1981, out of total electricity produced in France, 37.6 per cent. was nuclear-generated, 34.8 per cent. coal and oil-generated and 27.4 per cent. hydro-generated. In the United States, the nuclear figure was 11 per cent. and coal and oil 61.6 per cent. The United Kingdom figures for 1980 show that nuclear amounted to only 12.6 per cent., whereas coal and oil was 85.5 per cent.
  The lesson to be learnt is that France is now intensely competitive. That threatens the standard of living likely to accrue to us in years ahead, because unless we can compete with our neighbours we shall face great trade problems.
  Dr. Sigvard Eklund, the director-general of the IAEA, has indicated that the average lead time in Japan is 61 months, whereas it is 63 in France and 121 in the United States. He failed to calculate the figure for the United Kingdom. He came to the conclusion that it was not surprising that France could produce its electricity at a third the cost of oil-based generation and half the cost of coal plants.
  What does it cost to generate power? The hon. Member for Bristol, North-East mentioned several figures about Magnox. At Heysham 1, the cost is 2.59p per kilowatt hour; at Hartlepool it is 2.58p and Hinkley Point B, 1.45p. At Drax 2, it is 3.84p.
  Let us look at capital costs. The French have an enormous plan, and are now bringing six units into production every year. Accordingly they have low capital
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  costs that work out at £650 per kilowatt hour as opposed to between £800 and £900 for a PWR in the United Kingdom.
  What charge is made to large industrial consumers, based on international electricity tariffs? The cost in France is 4.72 cents per kilowatt hour. These are the figures for April 1981. Those for the United Kingdom are way down at 7.09 cents. Unless we have a large block of nuclear power in the United Kingdom we stand a chance of being outbid by all our competitors, and placed in a dangerous economic situation. Nuclear power is essential to safeguard our future way of life.
  The CEGB has not been particularly good at evaluating forecasts in demand, although I admit it has been rather difficult to do this in past years. It is for the Government to ensure that the country's future electricity supplies are available. Because of the long lead times required, a power station cannot be built overnight. If one is wrong in judgment a fundamental error has been made. We need to have competitive costs and we must choose the nuclear route. The ratio of coal and oil stations to nuclear stations in the United Kingdom is rather unfavourable. In 1980, 75.7 per cent. of Britain's electricity was produced from coal, but only 12.6 per cent. by nuclear and 9.8 per cent. by oil. That is too high for coal and the figures should be varied. We should have diversification of supplies.
  The importance of the nuclear manufacturing industry probably outweighs all the other factors, as nearly every hon. Member will recognise. If the industry is to be impeded by lack of orders, as it has in the past years, it will go out of existence. We must decide now not what to build—a decision has been taken—but how to keep the stock of personnel together to build the power stations of the future. Many power stations, unfortunately, have not been ordered and therefore completions with not be commissioned until the 1990s. It may be that in the next two or three years there will be a further slump in building, and if the entire British nuclear industry were to go out of business through lack of orders on the home front and because the type of reactors it produced could not be exported it would be death to the industry.
  We must have a substantial nuclear response and the development of the commercial uses of plutonium, of which we have 12 tonnes, and of depleted uranium, of which we have 20,000 tonnes. These are both indigenous fuels and are better incinerated in fast reactors than left, even in storage, where difficulties can arise.
  We have a nuclear inspectorate that can look into size and safety of nuclear plant in the United Kingdom. I do not mind whether the inquiry takes nine or 10 months—all the issues will be thought out carefully and a decision will be reached. I was in the House when it decided on a Windscale inquiry under the previous Government and remember the speeches made on both sides. It was balanced, there was an inquiry, there were speeches in the House of Commons and the implementation of the policy. This is the right course for the Secretary of State to pursue. It may be that after the next general election we shall have the beginning of a PWR in the United Kingdom and of many more such stations. The adoption of this course would be to the advantage and credit of the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Benn indicated dissent——
  Mr. Skeet: The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he authorised the policy in 1978 for one PWR reactor

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  from 1982. He has reneged on his principles on this point. He may have changed for good reasons but on the other hand many people in the United Kingdom will be grateful that politicians have had the courage to take that decision in our long-term interests.
  7.16 pm
  Mr. John Evans: Like every other hon. Member tonight, I congratulate the Select Committee on producing a first class report, which I am sure will form part of many debates in the United Kingdom on the future of nuclear power. I note that in his excellent speech the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), seemed to be disagreeing on some points with his Committee. I am not sure whether he was presenting the Select Committee's version or his own. However, he made one vitally important point when he pleaded that Select Committees should be given a number of days a year when their reports could be presented to the House and debated. I endorse that plea and hope that the Government's business managers will take note of it.
  I record my constituency interest in the debate. Over 6,000 workers are employed in the atomic energy industry at Risley in my constituency. Some are working in the northern divisional headquarters of the United Kingdom AEA, some are working in the quarters of BNFL, and some in the part headquarters of the Nuclear Power Company. I hope that one day we can sort out where the headquarters of the Nuclear Power Company, or the NCC as it is to be called, should be established. It would be in the interests of the workers in the industry if someone could arrive at a decision. As long as the headquarters are based at Risley the Minister can rest assured of my support.
  I hope that nobody in the House will think that I am advised and pressurised only by people employed in the nuclear power industry, because many hundreds of mineworkers constituents are unemployed in the colliery areas of Parkside, Golborne and Bold. I have plenty of advice from them on the future energy policy of the United Kingdom.
  One of the largest coal-fired power stations in the country is at Fiddlers Ferry in my constituency. It is a pity that the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) has left the Chamber. He referred to building coal-fired power stations from which district heating can be supplied, but I shudder to think of the row that would break out if it were suggested that a coal-fired power station the size of Fiddlers Ferry should be built in an urban area. I can assure the House that the row that would arise from that sort of planning application would dwarf into insignificance any other planning inquiry we have ever had. I shall take up the point with the hon. Gentleman on another occasion.
  The last time that the House debated the choice of nuclear reactor was in June 1974. I am sure that the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) will recall that on that occasion the overwhelming majority of the House urged my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) to forget about the PWR and to concentrate on the SGHWR. Nobody could accuse my right hon. Friend of not having listened to the House. The fact that SGHWR was dropped for a number of reasons is a matter of historical record.
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  That was why I was a little astonished to see that the Select Committee recommended that we should reexamine CANDU. I believe that the same arguments which told against the SGHWR would also prevail in the question of CANDU. I was also a little surprised by one or two of the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) in his excellent and powerful speech. As he rightly said, he has more experience than any other Member of the House because of his long experience as a Minister, when he was responsible for nuclear power. He will appreciate that some parts of his speech deviated from party policy. I never regarded Labour Party policies or annual conference decisions as being tablets of stone——
  Mr. Race: Is my hon. Friend aware of the statement of the national executive committee in February 1980 that the Labour Party supported the warning of the Flowers report and agreed that there should not be a commitment to a major expansion, or even a minor expansion, of the nuclear programme until the significant problem of waste disposal had been dealt with?
  Mr. Evans: I do not wish to provoke an argument about the structure of the Labour Party. Its annual conference is the supreme body, and on a number of occasions it has given a clear commitment to the continuation of the nuclear power programme. I do not quarrel with my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East for deviating from party policy. I welcome a full and complete debate on all the issues. I hope that my right hon. Friend and some of his friends outside the House will give the same freedom to other members of the Labour Party to debate and call into question some of the policy decisions—as he has rightly done today.
  I was astonished to hear my right hon. Friend say that he disagreed with his statement from the Dispatch Box in 1978. I am sure that he will appreciate that Labour Members who were on the Back Benches at that time find that extraordinary. How far does the question of Cabinet responsibility go? Should a former Minister announce at a later date that he did not support the decisions of the Cabinet? I am sure that he will discuss that point with me on a later occasion.
  Although today's debate is described as the new nuclear power programme—I question whether that is the right description as there is no nuclear programme—in reality, the House is debating future energy needs and requirements. It is a major mistake to discuss that important issue in a nuclear power versus coal versus oil versus anything else manner. To do so suggests that those areas are competing with each other, and nothing could be further from the truth. The real issue is how we ensure the efficient use of each element in the energy equation in each area of economic activity. How do we rationalise our choice of fuel in each area?
  The need for energy conservation is beyond dispute between all political parties. Everything must be done to enhance that programme. I regret that the Government's record in that area is not good. I plead with them to reconsider a relaxation of the regulations on the installation of insulation in homes where there has been some past insulation. I know of many cases, especially those of elderly people, who cannot take advantage of the Government's grant to provide insulation as an effective form of energy conservation because they already have, perhaps, one inch of old, absolutely useless insulation.

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  Another matter beyond dispute is the necessity to continue research into alternative forms of energy such as wind, wave, sun and so on. It is right to examine the efficiency and effectiveness of any possible alternative. We all agree on the necessity to conserve energy and experiment with alternative forms, so we must now turn to the most compelling but often overlooked factor in the issue, namely, the ever diminishing reserves of oil. It is generally accepted that oil will begin to diminish in the 1990s, and disappear from about the 2020s. When I was studying the issue during the weekend, I realised that oil would disappear during the lifetime of my 14-year-old son. That is a frightening prospect for something that we have taken for granted throughout our lifetimes. Once that fact is grasped it follows that coal—of which there are substantial reserves both in Britain and throughout the world—should be regarded as a priceless asset, to be jealously guarded, conserved and used as a substitute for oil when that begins to diminish.
  A nuclear power programme is an absolute necessity. It must be the essential and main provider of electricity from about the 1990s onwards, and especially from the turn of the century. The Government's programme envisages a steady and flexible build of nuclear power stations, and I support that. The Government have placed orders for two AGRs—at Heysham and Torness. I support and welcome that. However, the question of cost arises. I understand that the construction companies and suppliers of materials involved in those projects are advertising their costs for plant and machinery for the lifetime of the two AGRs. If we had a longer programme it would affect the write-down costs involved, which would then be reflected in the public costs of the AGR programme.
  I part company with the Government in their decision to go ahead with the PWR at Sizewell. I accept that the Government are carrying out decisions taken by the Labour Government in 1978. I assure the Secretary of State that I disagreed violently with my Government in 1978, and in disagreeing with the Government now I am, at least, being consistent. Britain should not further disperse its energy expenditure of scarce resources in another element of nuclear power. We should concentrate on our designs and capabilities. I say that not from any narrow, chauvinistic sentiment, but because the hypercritical factor in the nuclear power debate is that safety is and must remain paramount. I trust that no one will attempt to argue against the fact that the AGR is inherently safer than the PWR.
  The last thing that I or any other hon. Member wishes to see is the public losing confidence in the safety factors involved and the safety record of the British atomic energy industry. While I have no need to expand on the safety record, it is germaine for me to make the point that I lost my father in a mining accident. Three years ago, 10 miners at the Golborne colliery in my constituency were burnt to death. There have been no fatalities in the nuclear industry in my constituency. Those of us who work in an industry where death and serious injury are part of our daily life have a duty to underline the incredible safety record of the nuclear power industry. I worked in the shipbuilding and repair industry.
  I do not wish nuclear safety and the choice of reactor to be a major issue in a general election, as it has been in other countries. I trust that we can maintain our proud
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  record of the issue not being a partisan affair in a general election. I ask the Secretary of State to reconsider his refusal to countenance Government funding for those who wish to place their objections before the Sizewell inquiry into the PWR. If he does not accept the necessity to provide reasonable funds for the objectors, he can rest assured that those who feel that they were denied the right to put their case because of lack of funds will ensure that it becomes a matter of public debate in a general election.
  It is in the interests of British industry, the nuclear industry and the construction industry, and in the interests of British public life, that every objector should have the absolute right to ensure that his case is heard. Where necessary, skilled legal advice should be available to him and to his group to present their case.
  I believe that we should concentrate our resources in an AGR programme and at the same time continue our development into the fast-breeder reactor to take over at the turn of the century. Too often in the past Britain has made the wrong decisions in nuclear power, often to the despair of the many thousands of men and women who work in the industry. I submit that the PWR would be another wrong decision. That is why I support all those hon. Members who have stressed how essential it is that, once Sir Frank Layfield has concluded his report on the investigation into the PWR, it should then be brought before this House for debate and final decision.
  7.32 pm
  Mr. John Watson: I understand that there is in Leeds a magistrate who recently peered over his glasses at one unfortunate accused in the dock and uttered the immortal words "I do not know whether you are guilty or not. There is an element of doubt in your case but you are not getting the benefit of it. I am sending you to prison for six months. If you are guilty you have got off lightly; if you are innocent, let it be a lesson to you."
  The whole of the nuclear debate seems to be one of polarity in just such a sense. It is very difficult to take a middle view in the nuclear debate. Once we start telling people that we are in favour of nuclear power but we are not exactly in favour of a £15 billion investment programme over the next 10 years, people in the industry say that we do not completely understand the economics, that we have not the courage of our convictions, that we have been nobbled by the environmentalists, and so on.
  If, on the other hand, we have one or two reservations about the concept of nuclear power, but those reservations are not related to questions of safety or waste, people who might broadly be called environmentalists say that we are in the pocket of the industry and that we have been listening too long to vested interests.
  As so often in life, it is a lonely life to pursue a centre course. Incidentally, I think that we all regret that there has not been an opportunity in the debate to have the pleasure of hearing the official energy spokesman of the Social Democratic Party, the right hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Mahon). It would have been illuminating to hear the official views of that party on nuclear power. In the right hon. Member's absence I think we can safely assume that they will be consanguineous with those of the Liberal Party, whose views were so graphically expressed earlier in this debate.
  I was a member of the Select Committee and I should like to mention one or two of the thoughts that went through my mind as the evidence was being presented.

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  Many people presented evidence to us that was simply against the concept of nuclear power. I confess that I found such evidence difficult to digest. Some people said that nuclear power was endemically unsafe. Frankly, I was not able to accept that view. I was sure that nuclear power could be unsafe, but I was similarly sure that, given a moderate amount of investment, nuclear power could be made adequately safe for all our normal generating needs. It would add some cost and I suppose that the point could arise where the additional cost of safety would put the competitiveness of nuclear power into doubt. However, I think that we are a long way short of that mark.
  When I compare the environmental hazards of generating electricity through the continued burning of hydrocarbons, I cannot understand why there is not a powerful environmental lobby campaigning in favour of nuclear power. We should remember the stuff that a coal-fired power station emits, not just in the form of soot and other particulates, but in the form of sulphur dioxide, causing acid rain in Scandinavia. We have doubled the amount of carbon dioxide in the world's atmosphere in the past 100 years and still have no clear understanding as to what the effect of that will be. Moreover, many existing coal-fired power stations that are fired by hydrocarbons produce so much radioactive discharge that, if they were now to apply for an operating licence as a nuclear power station, they probably would not get one, on the basis of the existing radioactive discharge.
  For those reasons, I did not find that the safety argument, so frequently and so loudly expressed, had much depth Others had anxieties on the grounds of waste, waste disposal and the transport of waste. I must acknowledge that that is a continuing problem, but having investigated—at least in a constituency sense—the problems of transporting nuclear waste and spent fuel rods, I did not find that to be an insuperable problem. I believe that the technology of waste disposal, as it currently exists, is already sufficient to satisfy that problem.
  More important were those who criticised the nuclear power programme on the grounds that there was already an excess of supply of electricity generating capacity over the demand for it. They certainly had a case, for there is a large degree of surplus capacity in the English and Welsh electricity generating industry—a degree of overcapacity that is exceeded in Scotland. That may not be a magnificent testament for the investment judgments of the past, but I found myself wondering about the relevance of that argument to the economics of nuclear power.
  The essential thrust of the evidence given to the Select Committee was that we needed nuclear power stations not because of their additional capacity but because that kind of electricity was potentially cheaper. There was a great deal of evidence on that question. We were able to knead that evidence for meaning and I found it to be genuine. It is a similar argument to that which now prevails in the aircraft industry.
  Many airline operators throughout the world are flying jumbo jets with jet engines that are perfectly efficient and perfectly modern but so hungry for aircraft fuel that it is now worth while taking those engines off the wings—even though there is apparently plenty of life left in them—and replacing them with more modern engines that are so much more efficient that the fuel savings enable the whole deal
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  to be worth while financially. I thought that that same argument, applied to the electricity industry, was of considerable weight.
  Some people who gave evidence to us felt that nuclear power would not prove to be cheaper. Mr. Charles Komanoff gave plausible evidence to that effect, but once we examined the figures upon which his case was based it did not seem to have much reason behind it.
  My conclusion was that there were no barriers to investment in nuclear power on the grounds of safety anxieties, waste, present surplus capacity, or even that it was not cheaper. I was cheerfully prepared to allow that investment in nuclear power is likely to be a good investment, but the question is not whether it is a good investment. The question is whether in all the circumstances it is the best investment; and not just best in comparison with other forms of electricity generation, but whether £15,000 million of British money spent over the next 10 years on electricity generation is likely to be the wisest form of arrogation of a rather scarce capital resource. That was where I began to have my doubts.
  Some investment in nuclear power can be justified on the basis of the net systems saving argument that I have mentioned, but whether £15 billion can thereby be justified is far more questionable. It is a massive sum. Many hon. Members express anxieties in this House about the investment of £80 million of taxpayers' money in the De Lorean car project. We are talking here about 190 times as much as the money that is currently being invested, on behalf of the British taxpayer, in the De Lorean company.
  For those reasons, we have to ask whether there are any other candidates available—possibly quite apart from electricity generation—which might be better candidates for that kind of investment. There probably are.
  The first that springs to mind, which is again related to energy, is that of conservation. Just 10 per cent. of the so-called nuclear power programme of £15 billion, amounts to £1½billion. That works out at £70 per household in the United Kingdom. I have little doubt that if every householder in the United Kingdom were told "Here is a voucher worth £70; you must spend it on insulating your home to a higher standard" we could thereby save more electricity consumption than through the investment of £ 1½billion in extra capacity. To a limited degree, that should take first priority as a candidate for investment cash.
  Secondly, what about the needs of industry? Many people have said during the debate and before that, to be competitive, British industry must pay competitive prices for its energy. But are we to give British industry an open-ended cheque for its energy needs? Some industries are energy intensive, but they are relatively rare. The majority of British industries have an energy bill that is less than 4 per cent. of their added value. Perhaps a major power programme on these lines would significantly reduce electricity costs in Britain. If it does so, I suppose that it is safe to assume that industry's electricity bills could fall from 4 per cent. of added value to 3 per cent. of added value. But if that is the only benefit, if we are giving to British industry only 1 per cent. of added value, we must ask whether it is worth while since the total amount of money is £15 billion. That can be examined in two ways.
  First, if that £15 billion were taken out of the economy to invest in nuclear power generating capacity, it is difficult to imagine that the arrogation of that cash could have anything other than an upward effect on interest rates over the next 10 years. The cost to industry of the higher

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  interest rates could be greater than the benefits to industry of the lower electricity costs. Secondly, if we were to say that all the benefits of this nuclear investment programme were to fall upon industry, the cost of the programme would come to £1,300 per employee in manufacturing industry in Britain. Most managers who were offered the choice of either a reduction in energy bills or £1,300 per employee to invest in conservation or new machinery would have a superior home for that investment cash and would not wish the energy investment programme to go ahead on such a scale.
  What about other opportunities that are unrelated to industry and energy? According to the Treasury computer, we know that if we were to invest £500 million on an infrastructure programme of sewers and roads that would immediately produce 30,000 jobs and, indirectly, 40,000 jobs. The gross cost of £500 million would feed through to the public sector borrowing requirement with a net cost of only £150 million. The volume of our expenditure on sewers and roads is now 38 per cent. of what it was 10 years ago. The maintenance cost of the antiquated sewers in the North would produce a saving at least as great as the net system savings projected by investment in the nuclear power programme. That is another possible candidate.
  If we decide to invest extremely heavily in nuclear power—and I believe that 15,000 MW over the next 10 years represents a heavy investment—we shall expose ourselves to some risk that the costs may escalate. I give as an example Washington State in America. Ten years ago it was decided that five nuclear power stations were needed. At that time the cost was estimated at $4 billion. The estimated cost now of those five nuclear power stations is $100 billion. That is 10 times the total cost of the American space shuttle programme. The cost has escalated because of increasing environmental pressures, increasing safety requirements, bad industrial relations and bad structural workmanship on the five stations. We cannot say with certainty that we would be completely immune from such problems in the United Kingdom.
  In the State of Oregon, there is a village with the appropriate name of Drain. There are 623 power users in that village. Their commitment now to nuclear power is so great that the village is $4½ million in debt because of its commitment to the Washington nuclear power programme. That means that each of the power users has incurred a debt of $7,500. That programme has got out of control. I am reasonably certain that that could not happen in the United Kingdom but we must concede that it is a risk.
  My conclusion from those examples is that we need some nuclear power. Perhaps between now and the end of the century we shall need, to start, 15,000 MW of nuclear power. I doubt whether we are likely to need the scale of programme envisaged in the Secretary of State's statement to the House two years ago. My guess—it is no more than that—is that we may need 7,000 MW or 8,000 MW of additional capacity provided by nuclear means rather than the 15,000 MW referred to.
  As to the consequence of reactor choice, if over the next 10 years we are no longer talking about 12 or 15 nuclear power stations but about five or six, that cannot form a realistic basis for a United Kingdom manufacturing base for a nuclear power programme. That means that the nuclear steam supply system would have to be of the PWR
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  variety. The option of the advanced gas cooled reactor that we have so slavishly kept open is perhaps an option we can no longer afford.
  For all those reasons, I hope that the report can be welcomed. It sounds a cautious note, but I think that it is wise to do that. At the very worst, we shall be able to look back on the report and say that it is a report that has made us examine our sums to ensure that our general direction is right. At best, in 20 years' time, we may be able to look back at the report and thank the Lord for it because it may have saved us from investing on a scale that would be a financial embarrassment in the years to come.
  7.48 pm
  Mr. David Stoddart: Like the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Watson), I was a member of the Select Committee. I pay tribute to the leadership of the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), although I do not necessarily agree with some of the private views that he expressed today. Nevertheless, he gave good leadership to the Committee in a difficult task involving a very technical investigation of a subject that has exercised people's minds for a long time.
  Like the hon. Member for Skipton, I heard people whom he described as "endemically against nuclear power." It is only fair to say that I also heard people who were endemically for nuclear power and were quite prepared to brush aside cost aspects and, in some cases, safety aspects in pursuit of their particular line of thought. I found the experience of serving on the Select Committee of great interest. The Select Committee has done a service to the House and to the country. Its report was reasonable, well documented and well researched. We saw a good many witnesses and we produced a balanced and reasonable report. Unfortunately, some commentators and some people who should know better and who, perhaps, had not even read the report did not appear to think so. I regretted particularly the reactions of the chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board.
  I am glad that the Secretary of State made clear in his opening remarks that he did not share the views of the chairman of the CEGB. Mr. England, who is normally a pleasant and reasonable fellow, became most arrogant when the report was published. He launched a scurrilous attack on the Select Committee, accusing it of failing, after a year's work, to understand the nation's nuclear strategy, of misrepresenting the nuclear debate and of doing a great disservice to Select Committees in general. Any reasonable, detached person reading our report could hardly make such an accusation. Throughout this debate, and also in many parts of the press and the country, the Select Committee report has been welcomed as a balanced report. That is not what Mr. England says. He believes that we have misrepresented and misunderstood the situation. Indeed, he has gone further. In a recent letter to the Select Committee, he has accused its members of giving comfort to the anti-nuclear lobby.
  There is nothing anti-nuclear in the report. I am a great sceptic about nuclear power, but I am not anti-nuclear. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, I took part in the Aldermaston marches under a banner that proclaimed "Atoms for peace". I have not forgotten that aim. If we can have atoms for peace that are efficient and safe, we must invest in them. Those two points, especially the latter, must be borne very much in mind. Until we have satisfied ourselves that we can transport and store safely, over a

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  long period, high level atomic wastes, it is right for the Select Committee and for the House to draw attention to the dangers that exist.
  We are aware that some of the long-term wastes will take thousands of years to degenerate to a level where they are no longer a danger to the public. Can anyone be certain that this country will still have the same sort of civilisation in 500 years. let alone 1,000 years? The Secretary of State and the Department do not yet know how they will store long-term wastes. They do not know whether the wastes will be stored underground or above ground. They have recently said so. Hon. Members serving on the Select Committee were informed that there was no problem. There would: be vitrification. The wastes would be stored in safe terrain underground. However, ideas have changed in the time between publication of the report and our debate today. No one can therefore say that we are antinuclear. We are not. We want, however, to be sure, before embarking on any further large-scale nuclear development, about costs and safety.
  I have one further remark to make to Mr. England and to the Government, as the Government already know. The Secretary of State is to be commended for the mention he has made of the Select Committee. It is not, however, the Select Committee's job either to rubber stamp Government policy or to provide a whitewash to cover the incompetence of the CEGB. The task of hon. Members is to draw the attention of the public to relevant matters. That is what we have done.
  Mr. Leadbitter: My hon. Friend has referred to the CEGB and its chairman's comments. Will he confirm that I am correct in saying that, in the first session of our examination of the nuclear programme, Mr. England and certain CEGB witnesses refrained from, or omitted, reporting to us that there had been a change in the demand energy projections and the lower base and that even at that time they were downgrading the lowest based calculations and they therefore seriously misled the Select Committee?
  Mr. Stoddart: My hon. Friend anticipates my next remark. The Select Committee was entitled to be angry over its treatment, in the first instance, by the CEGB. The estimates of demand given to us by the CEGB in the first place were downgraded by 7 per cent. within three weeks. That might not sound a large figure to hon. Members. But the 7 per cent. downgrading in the demand estimates is equivalent to three 1,200 MW power stations costing £1,400 million each.
  The 7 per cent. downgrading was therefore very relevant. It involved a capital expenditure of about £4,000 million. Mr. England properly made the point that construction timetables make forward forecasts difficult. But the CEGB had not moved fast enough to revise its demand estimates in the light of new circumstances which should have been known to that body. It is the CEGB's duty to know that. It must have known that by 1973 power investment in industry had literally been completed.
  The CEGB must have realised, following the oil crisis of 1973, that activity in our economy would tend to decline. It has declined very quickly. The board should therefore have been in a good position to revise its demand estimates. That it did not do so is a condemnation of itself and the methods it used for estimating future demand. I hope that the CEGB, as a result of the Select Committee's report, will look again at the methods it uses for estimating future demand.
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  Another matter investigated was the issue of spare capacity. My guess is that most hon. Members before entering upon that inquiry did not have much idea how much capacity the board had at its disposal, let alone the amount of spare capacity. I had worked previously in the electricity supply industry and therefore had some notion. However, when I learnt that the CEGB had a planning margin of 28 per cent., I became very worried. In my view, that was far too much and represented a waste of the country's resources.
  I was concerned about that, but when we examined the South of Scotland Electricity Board we found that. before Invercape was even completed, the board had spare capacity of 73 per cent. I was horrified and concerned about the waste of resources that was taking place in the whole of the electricity supply industry. Indeed, the Committee rocked back on its heels when it heard those figures, and rightly so. It was its duty to draw the matter to the attention of the House, and that it has done in the report.
  Mr. David Fishlock was mentioned this afternoon. He wrote an odious article in the Financial Times in which he accused the highly qualified and sincere people of high integrity whom the Committee was fortunate enough to have as advisers of being "bought". That was a disgraceful allegation. The Chairman of the Select Committee has already dealt with that allegation, and I agree with him that our advisers were people of the highest integrity and gave the Committee a great deal of help. I myself am most grateful to them. Mr. Fishlock made the breath-taking claim in his article that planning margins must be a matter for fine engineering judgment and are no concern of politicians. Nevertheless, in 1977, when demand was roughly equivalent to 1980, the planning margin was only 20 per cent. However, Mr. Fishlock says that that is no concern of politicians.
  The difference between 28 per cent. and 20 per cent. represents £6,000 million, because the difference between 20 per cent. and 28 per cent. is five nuclear power stations. Nevertheless, he says that politicians are not to be concerned about that. If we are not to be concerned with the expenditure of public money on this scale, what on earth are we here for? It is just the sort of matter that should concern us, and I am glad and proud that the Committee did concern itself and brought the matter to the House's attention in its report.
  In considering this nuclear power programme of 15 GW, we should bear in mind that, between now and 1985, a further 11,000 MW of generating capacity will be added to the 56,000 MW that we already have. The planning margin will go on escalating. Certainly, if we go on with this programme, we shall have so much power that we shall not know what to do with it.
  The Chairman said that nuclear reactor choice was not a matter for the Committee, and we made no choice. However, I shall say a few words about the reactors that we saw and that have been under discussion today. We examined the AGR, the PWR and the CANDU. The Committee visited the United States, France, Germany and Canada. While we were in the United States, we looked at a PWR that was under construction, one that was in operation, and one that had gone wrong. The PWR had gone wrong in circumstances that the citizens of Harrisburg had been assured by the authority could not happen. The accident that the authorities told the residents could not happen did happen. That, of course, is the great

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  danger. While we were at Harrisburg, we learnt that many people had left the area never to return because they were too frightened. We learnt of people who were desperate to get out of the area because they feared another Three Mile Island accident. We heard of the decrease in property values following the accident. I was concerned about the accident at Three Mile Island which, in my view, was more serious—not less serious—than was originally thought. That reactor is still closed down. Let us not forget that. Since then, two further reactors have been closed down because of safety problems.
  In talking about the PWR, I wonder whether we have been taken for a ride by the vested interests. It is interesting that there have been no reactor orders in the United States for about five years, and—even more serious—reactor orders for the PWR are being cancelled all over the place. In Washington State, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Watson), orders have been cancelled because costs escalated four times above the original estimate. So we are right to have doubts about the PWR, and we are right to have doubts about safety and cost.
  I am amazed that only four days ago the CEGB sent to each Member of Parliament—certainly to me—a huge document, which must have been extremely costly to produce, justifying the AGR on the ground of safety and saying what a wonderful reactor it was. Yet it wants to go for a PWR that has not been proved to be the safest, and certainly is not proving to be the cheapest. Apart from that, we learnt about the possible cracks in the pressure vessels—the brittling of the pressure vessels over a long period due to radioactivity—and what would happen if they were suddenly drenched with cold water. Certainly, I was convinced that it was not the sort of reactor that we should introduce into this country.
  Now I shall say a word about my own reservations about the reactor. I sincerely hope that the Government will think long and hard on the matter, although of course the inquiry is to take place before a decision is made.
  The report that we are discussing is a long one. I should like to have spoken longer, but I realise that many other hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall be brief in my concluding comments. First, I want to refer to the CANDU reactor, and confirm what the Chairman said. We found that Ontario Hydro and the Canadian authorities were absolutely superb. The CANDU reactor is the most efficient, and also very safe. Moreover, it has a flexibility which neither the PWR nor the AGR possesses. The CANDU is capable of burning unenriched fuel. It is capable of onload refueling. The pressure tubes can be replaced while the reactor continues to work. It can burn thorium rather than uranium. What is more, it can be a near breeder reactor. The CANDU has virtually everything that we want, and we cannot understand why the Government have not taken on board the Select Committee's suggestion that they should make a further in-depth evaluation of the CANDU.
  If the Government really want to diversify and to get away from the AGR, why do not they, even at this late stage, accept the Committee's advice and consider the CANDU reactor? If they did, I am sure that they would be as impressed as the Committee was.
  With the nuclear power programme that the Government have in mind they are completely on the
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  wrong track. We have a surplus of generating capacity for a long period ahead. There is no imminent urgency about the decision to go ahead with further nuclear reactors. The Government should use this time to re-evaluate their energy and power policy. Instead of spending huge sums of money on large power stations, they should use the money for conservation and for building smaller power stations in conjunction with combined heat and power schemes. If they really want to save energy and to go ahead with a modern forward-looking energy saving policy, that is the route that they will take. They will use public money far more wisely and to much greater effect. What is more, they will not only cheapen the cost of electricity, they will cheapen the cost of energy and heat generally to the people. I hope sincerely that the Government will take those matters aboard.
  8.12 pm
  Mr. John Home Robertson: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), I intend to refer to the over-capacity of generating in the south of Scotland. I also want to discuss the Torness AGR station which is at present under construction in my constituency.
  All those hon. Members who would like to refer to the substantial parts of the Select Committee's report relating to the south of Scotland and to the Scottish Office are at a considerable disadvantage because neither the Secretary of State for Scotland, his junior Ministers, nor any Scottish Tory Back Bencher has seen fit to put in an appearance in the debate. I appreciate that it is not the fault of the Under-Secretary of State for Energy that his colleagues in the Scottish Office are so incompetent, but I shall be grateful if the hon. Gentleman will let the House know how the Scottish Office is to be appraised of the views expressed in the debate, because it ought to be.
  There have been endless arguments about the safety, the economics and the planning of the Torness AGR project. The scaremongering of the anti-nuclear lobby has been aptly matched by the complacency of successive Governments and of the South of Scotland Electricity Board about patently over-optimistic electricity consumption projections in the south of Scotland.
  Having alienated both lobbies with those few words, perhaps I may proceed to express my own feelings fearlessly and regardless of the consequences.
  Our public decision-making process with respect to nuclear power stations—and, for that matter, other power stations—leaves a great deal to be desired. It seems impossible for the general public, local authorities or Members of Parliament to form an intelligent opinion about whether to build a nuclear power station when the only information available to them comes from highly motivated pressure groups in the electricity supply industry, which appears to be heavily influenced by plant manufacturers on one hand, and from the extreme antinuclear lobby, which sometimes exaggerates nuclear dangers while overlooking the far greater perils of coal mining, on the other hand. Hon. Members have referred already to the way that we were reminded of the perils of coal mining only last week with the serious accident at Cardowan colliery in Lanarkshire.
  I was elected to the House at a by-election in 1978. Both then and at the subsequent general election I came under enormous pressure from both sides of the nuclear argument on the subject of Torness. Having obtained such

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  information as I could get from official sources, I assumed that no responsible public agency could be sufficiently perverse as to want to spend £1,100 on generating capacity that was not yet needed. Therefore, since a new station was to be built It in the south of Scotland area, I welcomed the jobs that would be created by going ahead with the Torness power station in the eastern area of East Lothian. At the same time, in view of the fact that there was such widespread public concern in the area, especially about safety and the disposal and transportation of nuclear waste, I also called for a full-scale inquiry by Members of Parliament into the Government's nuclear programme. Both I and my constituents are greatly indebted to the Select Committee on Energy for conducting its investigation and for publishing its report.
  In view of our experiences at Torness, I welcome the Committee's recommendation that there should be far more wide-reaching official public scrutiny of future nuclear projects. There seems to be no case to support the Government's proposal to build eight PWRs between now and 1990 on grounds of either reactor safety or economic need. But if the programme is to go ahead, there should at least be far more public scrutiny and a more effective and acceptable form of public inquiry than we had in East Lothian in respect of Torness.
  We are still left with the AGR stations already under construction at Torness and at Heysham. The Select Committee's report says in paragraph 117 that there was undoubtedly a case for not ordering the two AGR stations at Heysham and Torness, and I see from the proceedings of the Select Committee that the Committee came within one vote of phrasing that paragraph far more harshly. So, clearly, there are problems that ought to have been taken more fully into account in that respect.
  The report seems to confirm the impression that the safety risks of AGRs have been overstated by the opponents of nuclear power. But it also confirms everyone's worst fears about the excessive margin of generating capacity over reasonable projections of power consumption.
  In passing, I should stress that the excessive plant margin has been exaggerated and distorted by the fact that the disastrous economic policies of the present Government have aggravated the effects of the world slump to such an extent that there was a reduction of 4.1 per cent. in sales of electricity by the SSEB in 1981 compared with an increase of 4 per cent. that was projected only a few years ago.
  It stands to reason that the commissioning of new generating plant and falling demand must pose very serious questions for the electricity supply industry. I have a very strong constituency interest in the industry, as there is in my constituency a 1,200 MW coal-burning power station at Cockenzie which burns virtually the whole output of two coal mines at Monktonhall and Bilston Glen, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), as well as coal from a nearby opencast site at Blindwells.
  The power station employs 600 people. The two collieries employ more than 4,000 miners. It follows, therefore, that Cockenzie power station accounts directly for the employment of nearly 5,000 people and is of enormous economic importance to the north-west corner of my constituency. As well as Cockenzie, there is a 1,300 MW AGR station under construction at Torness, which is supposed to be commissioned in 1987. In the long term,
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  Torness should employ 600 people, but at present 1,000 local people are employed on construction at Torness, as well as 1,700 outsiders. I warn those hon. Members who foresee the construction of nuclear power stations in their constituencies that the electricity generating boards are inclined to make bland promises about the enormous benefits of employment on construction work. My constituents are far from satisfied, because a low proportion of the work force has been recruited locally and many people have been brought in from outside. This comes at a time when East Lothian has a high proportion of unemployed construction workers.
  Cockenzie contributes 1,200 MW to the South of Scotland Electricity Board's total generating capacity of 7,826 MW. The eventual commissioning of Torness will bring our local generating capacity to 2,500 MW, which is more than 27 per cent. of the SSEB's total capacity. It follows that many of my constituents—miners, power station employees and construction workers—depend heavily on the use of that electricity generating capacity in East Lothian.
  This year, three major threats hang over the use of that generating capacity. First, I refer to the dead hand of the Government on our industrial economy. A further drop in electricity consumption must be on the cards, not least because of the over-pricing of electricity. Secondly, East Lothian is affected by the recent calamity at Invergordon, where the Government have allowed the aluminium smelter to close. Apart from the disastrous social consequences for Easter Ross, about 260 MW of capacity at Hunterston B—which was earmarked for the smelter—are going spare. Thirdly, electricity generation in East Lothian is threatened by the commissioning of a 300 MW unit at Peterhead, which will burn cheap waste gas from North Sea oil production for the next two or three years until the Moss Morran gas plant is completed.
  I have explained that the SSEB has a generating capacity in excess of 9,000 MW. However, last month we were told that it had just recorded an all-time record in peak demand during the arctic conditions of the first fortnight this year. That peak was 4,717 MW. On that basis, it looks as if the commissioning of Torness will give us more than 100 per cent. excess capacity over maximum imaginable peak demand. That is far more than the 28 percent. safety margin thought acceptable by the generating boards and which, in itself, is far more than the Select Committee regarded as reasonable.
  That figure becomes even more disturbing if the Invergordon and Peterhead factors are taken into account, with 260 MW of lost sales at Invergordon and 300 MW of new capacity at Peterhead. Under those circumstances, the SSEB's overcapacity could become intolerable. Power stations come under threat, not to mention the coal mines that supply them.
  It did nothing for my confidence to learn that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, who is supposed to be responsible for industry, met the chairman of the SSEB last Friday. The Under-Secretary the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) has come to be known as the death-watch beetle of Scottish industry. Many of us fear that that meeting could forebode much for coal-burning power stations in Scotland.
  I hope that I am wrong about the situation. However, it seems to be the only way of interpreting the Government's policy on electricity supplies in Scotland. If the Government intend to commission more and more

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  nuclear power stations and to discourage industry from using that generating potential, only one conclusion can be drawn—that conventional coal-burning power stations, such as Cockenzie, will have to be sacrificed.
  That state of affairs is tragic for three reasons. First, it is tragic for industry, which should be encouraged to use power and to create goods, wealth and jobs. Secondly, it is tragic for domestic consumers, who need heat, but too often cannot afford to use it. There was dramatic evidence of that only last month, during the cold weather, when we were told that 700 people—mostly old people, or pensioners—were dying every day from hypothermia. Thirdly, it is tragic for the power industry, because its enormous potential is being wasted and its future may be threatened.
  Obviously, I shall not join those who wish to halt the construction of Torness, because the contract is irreversible and there are 2,700 jobs in my constituency that I should not want to lose. However, it will be hard to justify the commissioning of Torness when it has been completed unless the Government decide to close coal-burning units. If that is the Government's intention, I tell them here and now that any such proposal would be a criminal waste of our human and natural resources and would be fiercely resisted in the House and in the coalfields of Scotland.
  The extremely valuable Select Committee report must be seen against the background of the Government's depressingly negative attitude to our industrial prospects. They seem to regard our major industries and services as liabilities, which should be written off as soon as the opportunity arises. There is an endless list of the casualties that Scotland has experienced—the pulp mill at Corpach, the smelter at Invergordon and now tractor manufacturing is threatened at Bathgate, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell). So the list continues. Too much of our human, natural and industrial resources are being allowed to go to waste by this disastrous Government, A responsible Government should look at those industries and at our electricity generating capacity not as liabilities, but as potential wealth-creating assets.
  Mr. Dalyell: The tractor battle is not lost.
  Mr. Home Robertson: As long as my hon. Friend is fighting battles, they are unlikely to be lost, as many of us discovered—to our cost—on the devolution issue. We should encourage industrialists to use our electricity resources, if necessary by subsidising electricity. No Government would be daft enough to run down the agriculture industry if consumers could not afford to buy food. That is the type of policy advocated in Poland. Just as we are prepared to subsidise food, we should be prepared to subsidise energy more to encourage its use where this desirable.
  For example, if there is a short-term bonus of cheap gas-generated power at Peterhead, we should offer that power as an incentive for potential operators of the Invergordon smelter instead of playing havoc with coal burning in the south of Scotland. That would give us the best of both worlds. It would save jobs at Invergordon and keep Cockenzie power station in my constituency busy.
  We could work our way out of the recession by taking advantage of our energy resources and by encouraging the
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  use of electric power in the creation of jobs. Such a positive strategy of energy exploitation could make the best of a balanced energy policy, which should combine coal, gas, oil, nuclear power and energy conservation. Failure to adopt such constructive policies will be disastrous for the country and, particularly, for my constituency.
  8.28 pm
  Mr. Gordon Wilson: I share the concern of the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) about the absence of Scottish Office Ministers. No doubt they will be able to read the text of the debate and study the remarks of individual hon. Members, but unfortunately we shall not have the advantage of any advice that they might have been able to give the Under-Secretary of State, who is to reply, in response to the trenchant and scathing criticisms set out in the Select Committee's report.
  I welcome the Select Committee's report. It is interesting and it blows substantial holes in the case for the nuclear power industry. Some of the speeches that we have heard from hon. Members who were members of the Select Committee do not represent the report as I read it. The report concentrated on the economic aspects of nuclear power and did not advance any convincing arguments in favour of that form of energy.
  There is substantial criticism of the two Scottish electricity boards. The way in which they have conducted their estimates over the years shows that they have been on a course of disaster. The Government adopted the 15 GW policy and they are now to take it on board in a more flexible manner. They would do well to consider the way in which electricity generation in Scotland has developed a huge over-capacity.
  The Select Committee criticised the CEGB for its 28 per cent. margin. In 1979–80 the South of Scotland Electricity Board had an over-capacity of 73 per cent. On 26 May 1978 I received a letter from the chairman of the board in which he stated that the board's intention was to go for a 25 per cent. margin. It seems that the board's planning has gone sadly awry in the four years since 1978. If the Government exercise no control over the boards and the mania that they seem to have for nuclear power, the same scale of over-capacity, or something like it, could develop in England as well.
  This winter demand surged to 6,354 MW compared with a peak of 4,717 in 1981. However, the over-capacity in the Scottish system was still about 40 per cent. That was on the coldest day of the winter so far, and probably the coldest day for many a decade. That over-capacity has to be paid for by consumers. The Carolina Port B power station in Dundee, which is oil fired, is under sentence of death and two out of the three generation sets at Inverkip power station are not in use.
  In page 21 of its report the Select Committee sets out the likely demand for power and the trends seem to be pessimistic. Price increases, the depressed state of the economy and many other factors seem to be putting a brake on demand. The Committee says that investment in conservation could be similarly attractive. In view of the high capital cost, the economic case for new generating capacity, especially nuclear plants, must be persuasive if it is to justify the dedication of national resources on such a large scale.

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  The evidence suggests that it is a fallacy that the electricity market will turn up. As the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian said, electricity is an expensive fuel. Many people cannot afford to buy it, and with the unemployment and poverty that unfortunately are growing in our communities there is little sign that people will be able in the near future to change their patterns of consumption. There is no sign of industrial growth in Scotland—if anything, the trend is otherwise.
  If the analyses of the Select Committee are correct, the two Scottish electricity boards will have to face a severe problem. It appears that 84 per cent. of the South of Scotland Electricity Board's thermal capacity is only 15 years old or less. That means that any power stations that are closed now will involve writing off huge sums of public capital which would have been better devoted to other purposes. It is a great pity that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher), is not in his place.
  Mr. Home Robertson: No, it is a good thing.
  Mr. Wilson: In Committee the hon. Gentleman drew attention to the over-capacity that is developing in Scotland. It is a pity that he is not in the Chamber to impress upon the Government the folly of their nuclear strategy.
  I have found a blindness among the electricity boards about the nuclear option. There has been a lack of independent analysis of the position and the problem that could develop in Scotland is a huge over-capacity that cannot easily be wiped out except at the expense, I suspect, of the coal-fired power stations, which in turn will mean fewer jobs for miners.
  It is a matter for shame that a Scottish Office representative is not here. I was present at the hearing at which the Scottish Office and the SSEB gave evidence to the Select Committee, although I was not a member of that Committee. As a Scot, I believe that the very poor way in which the case was presented by both bodies was a disgrace. Further, 1 cannot understand, given the facts that have emerged during the past three or four years, why the Government have gone ahead with the Torness power station. There has been over-confidence, muddle and negligence. When I heard the evidence that had been given, I added the word "incompetence" to my description of the way in which the Scottish Office had approached the matter.
  If one studies pages 23 and 24 of the report and some other paragraphs on pages 40 and 55, one can see the sound reason, why the Torness power plant should not have been built. A few months ago, it was clear that the SSEB had jumped the gun in order to place the contracts for generating equipment. The idea had formed in my mind that perhaps nothing very much could be done at that stage. However, having now seen the effect of Torness going on stream in the 1990s and the effect of the fall in consumption because of the loss of the Invergordon smelter, I am beginning to wonder whether the Government, even at this late stage, might not find it economically advisable to mothball the power station under construction at Torness in order to keep some of the other plants open. If not, we shall be heading for an expenditure of £1.2 billion on a power station for which there will be no need.
  The cost of hydroelectricity now is about 0.7p per unit. If one considers an article in the Review of Potential
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  Hydroelectric Development in the Scottish Highlands, an article in Electronics and Power of May 1979, and the Mackenzie report of 1962, it would appear that about 400 MW of hydroelectric power will be available if certain programmes are to go ahead. That sort of power development would be a help to the smelter at Invergordon. It would add cheap power to the cost of electricity instead of nuclear power, which is extremely expensive.
  Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. I understand that the wind-up speeches will begin at 9 o'clock. Three hon. Members have been waiting all afternoon and evening hoping to take part in the debate. If they keep their speeches to about seven minutes each, all will be able to speak.
  8.38 pm
  Mr. Robin F. Cook: I shall endeavour to meet the timetable that you have imposed upon me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, although it is difficult to do so, having sat through the debate and having heard many speeches that tempt me to go on for much longer than seven minutes.
  I am happy to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) and the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson). I shall round off the brief Scots corner of the debate. I also wish to address my remarks to the paragraph in the report that points out that there was a case for not ordering two AGRs at the end of the 1970s. Some of us argued that case at the time. It must be said that, with the passage of time, our case against Torness has become even more self-evident. A measure of how irrefutable was the case against going ahead with Torness is the fact that no Back Bencher representing a Scottish constituency has bothered to turn up to argue to the contrary.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian registered the consequences of cancellation at this late stage. I opposed the decision to go ahead with Torness from the start, but I recognise that it would now be difficult to halt the project, partly because the SSEB is so steeped in contracts that it would be as tedious to go back as to go forward, and partly because Scotland has been reduced to such industrial dereliction that I should be fearful of winning a battle that resulted in the loss of one of our few major industrial contracts. However, it is now clear that there was no energy supply basis for ordering the station and that there will be no necessity for it when it comes on stream—resuming that it does—1980s.
  I argue that for two reasons. The first relates to the forecast of demand. The hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Watson) suggested that the forecast was irrelevant Given the egregious overcapacity in the Scottish supply system, one cannot argue that the electricity boards' failure to get forecasts correct is irrelevant to the case for a further nuclear or other plant. When the station was first proposed in 1974 it was justified on the basis of energy demand. I well remember the public inquiry of 1974, when the SSEB claimed that the station was needed in the 1980s because there would be a 6 per cent. per annum growth in electricity demand in the intervening period. In practice, when Labour was in office, demand grew by 1 per cent. and since then it has fallen.

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  However, despite the modest nature of the rise in demand, which should have been predictable, in 1974 the SSEB sought planning permission not for a single station of 1.3 GW but for a nuclear park of four separate stations, each of 1.3 GW. Indeed, in 1974 it was applying for planning permission for a nuclear park which would have a combined output greater than the peak demand in Scotland this past winter. Given that soaring ambition, one is bound to question the rationality of the forecasts on which the proposal was put forward.
  I recognise the extreme difficulty of predicting electricity demand 10 years in advance, but, if there are to be such constant errors between forecast and reality, is it prudent to adopt an electricity strategy that requires demand to be spotted 10 years in advance? The table in the report shows that in 10 years from 1970 to 1980 the total increase in peak demand in the CEGB area was less than 5 GW. As long as we insist on adding to the grid large lumps of power stations each of1–13 GW output we cannot have an equal and even ordering programme of power stations which matches that modest increase in demand of 5 GW and so gives security to and sustains the supply industry.
  If we insist on such an energy strategy, we shall be left with one of two consequences. Either the intervals between ordering power stations will be so long that the supply industry will run into difficulties, as has happened in the past decade, or power stations will be ordered at intervals that give sufficient work to sustain the supply industry but there will then be a problem of chronic over-capacity of generating plant. One or other is bound to flow if a medium sized country with a comparatively modest increase in electricity demand insists on large additions to the generating system at any one go. We must revise the practice. We cannot continue with the errors that have flowed from our policies in the past 20 years and which necessarily arise in a system that requires demand to be forecast 10 years in advance.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: Is not the hon. Gentleman making a powerful case for the integration of the two grids?
  Mr. Cook: If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the integration of the planning of the SSEB and the CEGB, I would not wish to resist that. However, all three generating boards—the CEGB, the SSEB and the North of Scotland Hydroelectric Board—have a large surplus of capacity, particularly the SSEB, but still visible in the other two boards. It would not solve the problems for any one of the three if it were integrated with the others.
  The other reason why the case for Torness is no longer sustainable is that over the years, as the case for building Torness to meet demand has evaporated with the collapse of that demand, the emphasis on the justification for Torness has switched to economic grounds—to the net effective costs argument.
  As someone who has attended many debates on public expenditure over the past three years, I have yet to find another area of the public sector to which the Government are prepared to apply the same test of net effective costs. As hon. Members will know, I have a relationship with the rail industry. We have made a profound case for going ahead with electrification of the railway industry. We have shown that there could be a 14 per cent. return on investment in electrification. Does any Minister come to
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  the Dispatch Box and argue that that should go ahead on the basis of net effective costs? No. He simply tells us that that cannot be permitted as it cannot be achieved within the EFL and public expenditure limits. We were told that the North Sea gas pipeline could not go ahead because of public expenditure restraints. Who did the net effective costings on that?
  When one looks at the sums involved, the assumptions are difficult to sustain. I shall name only one. An assumption that the SSEB has built into its case on net effective costs for Torness is that in the next five years between now and 1986 the real cost of coal will increase by 5 per cent. per annum. Since 1975 the real cost of coal has increased by 1 per cent. per annum. To assume that over the next five years the real cost of coal will go up at five times the rate of the past five years is questionable and inevitably will weigh the balance of the argument in favour of nuclear power.
  The net effective costs argument did not cut much ice with the Select Committee nor with the Monopolies and Mergers Commission, which reported at the same time and in similar terms on the assumptions that the SSEB and the CEGB built into their net effective costs.
  In their White Paper even the Government are carefully distancing themselves from the economic case. They say that the boards tell them that there will be an economic case for nuclear power. I am bound to say to the Government that that is not good enough. A spirit of scientific detachment is all very well if one is an impartial outside observer, but the Government are not. They are the banker of the scheme. They must justify why they are prepared to put money into nuclear developments while they resist investment in every other sort of public sector development. If they cannot justify it, as I suspect, they should seriously reconsider their future commitments.
  8.48 pm
  Mr. Reg Race: It is incumbent on us to put on the record the real reasons for the Government's decision to go ahead with the PWR. As we are aware, there was a leak from the Cabinet on the matter. The minutes of the Cabinet meeting have been revealed and printed in the press. It is important to know what was said in the Cabinet on 23 October 1979. The two quotations to which I wish to refer are:
  "The nuclear programme would not reduce the long-term requirement for coal because of the likely decline of world oil prices towards the end of the century …but a nuclear programme would have the advantages of removing a substantial portion of electricity production from the dangers of disruption by industrial action by coal miners or transport workers."
  It continues:
  "Opposition to nuclear power may well provide a focus for protest groups over the next decade and the Government may make more rapid progress towards …its objective by a low profile approach …But there will be a problem in maintaining a low profile once a decision is made to proceed with a PWR."
  We have there two clear reasons why the Government wanted to go for an expanded nuclear programme. They wished, as they saw it, to protect the electricity suppy industry from the disruption which might be caused by miners. The policy of expanding the 15 gigawatts capacity and installing PWRs is an attempt to remove the bargaining power of a section of workers and to protect the supply industry from that problem.
  The other significant point which has been referred to by many hon. Members is the problem of PWR engineering. I made that point in an intervention in the

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  speech of the hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd). the Chairman of the Select Committee. We should remember what Sir Alan Cottrell said about the dangers of PWR design and what the NII itself said about the inherent dangers of PWR design.
  According to Sir Alan Cottrell, PWRs suffer from two major design deficiencies. First, there is a problem about the integrity of the pressure vessels. Secondly, a loss of coolant accident, in which the reactor safety systems fail to prevent the pressure from falling, is highly probable.
  There is a great deal of detailed technical evidence to support both those criticisms. I am not convinced that the designs proposed for Sizewell will be any safer than those which have proved so disastrously wrong in the United States and in France. One has only to look at the experience of France where, in reactors based on the Westinghouse design, cracks have been found in the interface between steel and inconel in the heat exchanger plates. Each of the plates has been shown to have between 30 and 200 cracks, and £13.8 million has had to be spent in one financial year to repair the deficiencies. The technical problems of PWR design are substantial and, in my view, they should make the Government pause in their commitment to choosing this form of reactor.
  There are other reasons for opposing this development. The Nuclear Installations Inspectorate has produced its own report on the Marshall report and has stated plainly:
  "There are no firm grounds for stating that nuclear steel pressure vessels will have acceptable failure rates".
  It went on to show that the calculations in the Marshall report on the critical size of cracks in the pressure vessels ignored the peak stresses maintained in the system. As has already been said, according to the NII the United Kingdom might have 150 pressure vessels in use at the end of 40 years, that of such a number between four and 40 might fail, and that failure in four of them would lead to catastrophe. That is the view not of Friends of the Earth or of nutty conservation groups that the Conservative Party might oppose, but of the NII, making a perfectly rational and reasonable point about the choice of reactor design. I therefore foresee great problems if the Government go ahead with that design.
  The Government have not produced any real estimates of the cost of decommissioning nuclear power plants or of disposing of the high level waste generated by them. Indeed. there have been some disgraceful exchanges in the House on this. The Minister may recall the exchanges we had on 23 November that appear in column 603 of the Official Report. The difficulty now faced is that the only cost estimates for the disposal of waste—which presumably are built into the CEGB's cost estimates for decommissioning and waste disposal—is the green document produced by Beale from Harwell dated July 1981. The costs are set out there in a way that makes them difficult to understand. It is about time that we had a clear statement from both the Government and the CEGB about the way in which those costs are fed into the assumptions about the relative cost of nuclear power production and the relative cost of electricity from coal production. I am not at all convinced that the CEGB has got that equation right, nor do I believe that it has done its sums properly.
  We know that the CEGB shielded from the Select Committee important information about its decision-making processes in regards to loads. On 10 occasions in its conclusions, the Select Committee report criticised the
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  CEGB. I just do not believe the CEGB's estimates of the relative cost of nuclear-powered electricity production and coal-generated electricity production.
  Because of the assumptions about cost, the problems of disposal, the costing of the disposal of waste, the failure to understand the engineering problems of the PWR and the reasons behind this programme, the Government ought to think again about this commitment to the PWR. I hope that the inquiry will expose the fallacies behind this policy.
  8.58 pm
  Mr. Ted Leadbitter: A great deal has already been said about this report, and it is unlikely that anyone will be sufficiently ingenious at this stage to say something particularly new. Perhaps we can end the debate by emphasising several important matters relating to the future prospects of the nuclear power industry.
  It must be borne in mind that it takes at least a decade to carry out the planning authorisations, construction and commissioning of plant. It should also be borne in mind that the life of a power station is about 30 years. We must acknowledge that the rate of change in plant composition may be unfortunately slow. Those and other factors make it essential that planning should take place years ahead.
  Any systematic approach or strategy must evaluate developing trends in the economy in addition to the problems that I have already mentioned. It must take a view about the uncertainties of the future, fuel resources, the costs of generation, security of supply and the impact of world energy policies. It follows that investment decisions will have to be taken when a number of uncertainties and variables are consistently at play. when supply and demand forecasting can be confounded and when employment and world pressures have some leverage.
  Recent history has shown that during the oil crisis new attention was paid to the conversion of plant equipment, less dependence on oil and the provision of alternative power plant construction. The types of plant and balance between coal-fired and nuclear stations add to the complexity of any investment decision.
  I have no hesitation in expressing my admiration for the CEGB, for the understanding of the Department of Energy and for the fortitude of the construction industry, and my belief in the importance of the Atomic Energy Authority. There is no lack of professionalism and it has been my pleasure to meet excellent men from all these Government Departments and agencies.
  In addition. to the problems that I have mentioned, the type of plant to be used has been influenced by a dependence on the abundance of fossil fuel supplies. 13ut three or four decades ahead that position may alter, although perhaps on price grounds alone.
  I have already stressed the planning time scale so it is the decision making now, and in the recent past, which is of crucial importance. That is the significance of the Select Committee's report. Any criticism that I may make does not lessen the regard I have just expressed, but I would add that there is a need for the Department of Energy, the CEGB and other Government agencies to respond more wholeheartedly to the observations and recommendations of the report.
  The report lists 75 appendices, outlining visits, memoranda and correspondence. There were 25 Committee sittings with specialist witnesses and highly competent advisers and excellent Committee clerks and

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  officials from Government Departments. The evidence from these sources has led to the recommendations. That collected opinion deserved a better response than that given to it by some of the prompted and sponsored commentaries in the press, following its publication. The response brought no credit to the professionalism I have described to the House, and showed a lapse of professional integrity. The comments I have already made are plain in their significance in the light of the decision making to which we must address ourselves in the next 10 years.
  In the 10 years preceding 1980 no power station was ordered. Thirty years have passed since the United Kingdom led the world with the first industrial scale nuclear power station at Calder Hall. There have been no export orders and, as the report shows, this is compounded by the absence, after 15 years of the AGR programme, of a tried and tested reactor type with a separate design and cost-benefits that would enable orders to be made confidently. What else could have been the outcome when Governments, the CEGB, the AEA, the South of Scotland Electricity Board, other agencies and the industry have been arguing about different kinds and design of reactor?
  The steam generating heavy water reactor was wanted for the south of Scotland but denied by other forces. The advocates of the American light water reactors were as busy as little bees, delightfully employing patience and persistence with a guile that makes politicians in the House look veritable simpletons. Other views sought to protect British technology, taking the next step from the AGR to the high temperature reactor and the fast breeder. That seemed to be common sense. Time brought about the casualty of the steam generating heavy water reactor and the AEA had, as a consequence, come in 1976 to the interesting view that the SGHWR was less attractive than it had been two years before.
  That is a thumbnail sketch of a tragedy in the decade before 1980. I am afraid we are looking forward to another decade where great question marks lie across the decisions that have been made. I have opposed the PWR and have told the House of the influence of Sir Arnold Weinstock, the chairman of the AEA and the past chairman of the CEGB—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is a conspiracy to override common sense. We face an inquiry that will take a long time, with the promise of a 15 GW programme following that exercise. But that will not materialise by the end of the decade because, in reality, there is no programme.
  The great danger is that unless we turn away from the PWR construction programme and return to what we thought of 10 years ago—the natural route from AGR to HTR to fast breeder—Britain will find itself wanting in its power programme and supply provision. Indeed, Britain is the only country in the world that has meddled with many generations of nuclear power. That has dissipated our resources and deprived us of a valuable export market. We must have the foresight and will to think consistently.
  I hope that during the next few months the matter will be thought about further. Whatever the outcome of the PWR inquiry, a decision should be made—I hope that the House will have influence in it—to turn our backs on the PWR with its questionable safety aspects and the risks involved.
  9.1 pm
  Mr. Alex Eadie: I do not think that the House will regret the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter). His experience and knowledge always enhance and enrich any debate. The hon. Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), the Chairman of the Select Committee, made a good speech, which was appreciated by the House. That is not to say that we agree with all that he said.
  When considering the issue, we must ask about the Government's announced programme. I am sure that hon. Members will have read pages 14 and 15, paragraphs 7 and 8, dealing with the Government's statement about one nuclear power station of 15 GW per year during the decade beginning 1982. The Select Committee was correct to draw our attention to the statement and the words
  "the precise level of future ordering will depend upon the development of (projected) electricity demand and the performance of the industry".
  The House must be aware that the Select Committee said, in bold print:
  "This means, taken at face value, that there is no irrevocable commitment to an ordering programme of 15 GW (and indeed that is not strictly accurate to describe the announcement as constituting a 'programme')".
  Whatever we think of that view, and despite the huffing and puffing of the Government about nuclear power, it is the best description that I have read about what is currently happening. In reality, we are being told about a step-by-step approach to the building of new nuclear power stations—yet the Government criticise others who tried to argue that same case. We heard some hon. Members do that during the debate.
  Incidentally, I would suggest that in paragraphs 7 and 8 the Select Committee makes an overwhelming case for this debate, particularly in the light of the Government's announcement about the public inquiry into the building of the PWR at Sizewell. Britain's loss of capacity to build power stations was mentioned during the course of the debate. One can translate the kind of arguments that have been advanced, and that have to be faced in Britain, into the influence that the 3 million unemployed will have on the reduction of energy demand and the need for new generating capacity. The tenor of the the debate was that we have a responsibility to keep alive our capacity to build power stations in Britain in time of recession. If we allow that capacity to go, how do we measure the damage it does to Britain's industrial base? The argument that I have taken from the debate is that this industrial capacity must be retained. If it is not retained in some shape or form, when we eventually have more economic activity we shall be confronted with the de-industrialisation of this part of our indigenous capacity.
  Before I deal with what I would describe as the impact of the PWR, I must respond to the three contributions made by hon. Members from Scottish constituencies, regrettably only from the Opposition Benches. There is at present an argument developing in Scotland suggesting that we may be compelled to mothball power stations because of the over-capacity that we have in Scotland. It is ridiculous that we should be talking along those lines when, in Scotland as in other areas of the United Kingdom, the elderly and the disadvantaged are unable to buy energy. That is a crisis. If we are considering a policy of mothballing power stations, it must be after some arrangement is made to provide heat to the elderly or the

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  disadvantaged, Furthermore—and I regret that there is no Scottish Minister present—industry in Scotland has to be considered on the basis of more advantageous costs in order to keep what industry we have. I want to make it perfectly clear to the Government that any mothballing must be applied to nuclear-powered stations and oil-fired stations but certainly not to coal-fired stations. There is a determination in Scotland that that will not take place.
  I said that we would have to look at the PWR and the cost factor. The Secretary of State for Energy told Parliament that a joint task force would be established combining the resources of the National Nuclear Corporation, the Central Electricity Generating Board and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority to ensure that firm designs for the PWR would be constructed consistent with United Kingdom safety requirements. I have the greatest respect for some of the people involved in this exercise, since I know some of them personally.
  I ask the Government and the House to consider whether it has been wise to make announcements from time to time—sometimes in rather jazzy, startling headlines in the press—to the effect that the PWR system can or will be very much cheaper. It leads to suspicions in people's minds. It certainly diverts attention from the other scientific or technical appraisals that may be made. There have been problems associated with the pressurised water reactor in America, and many people believe that those problems will spread to Europe. They have happened because corners have been cut during the construction phase, in the interests of cost. A price is to some extent being paid for that and will be paid in the future.
  It is a false assumption that we shall have available to us the sort of off-the-shelf type of American Westinghouse or Bechtel PWR. Indeed, all the documentation that hon. Members have at their disposal, and the information contained in the Select Committee report, demonstrates that there will be a British PWR; in fact, I believe that it will be a new or virgin-type reactor. I have mentioned the people involved in the task force, and it is my bet that we shall see a different type of PWR, even if my prediction of a virgin-type reactor is not correct. I also assert that it will be more costly than the previous designs of PWR.
  All the experience with different types of nuclear reactors shows that they face difficulties in their initial running-in period. There are always problems initially for new or virgin-type reactors. Even if the results of the inquiry are favourable, it is difficult to believe that a PWR will be started in the lifetime of this Parliament. I noticed that the Secretary of State for Energy, in the course of his speech, also doubted whether it would be possible.
  I should like to give a timetable to substantiate what I am saying. If what I am saying is correct, a future Government would be required to examine the matter before making a decision. Delay would appear to be inevitable. The Vale of Belvoir planning inquiry has been going on for three or four years already, at a cost of over £2 million. We hear how expeditious the Government are, but we have not yet had a decision on that matter. There would certainly seem to be doubts concerning the time scale for the PWR.
  The Government have tried to argue that there is a need for nuclear power, but they could lay themselves to open to the charge that they are indulging in a very expensive delay in the development of nuclear power. Whether one is in favour of nuclear power or an opponent of it, if the
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  decision is for a PWR, or what the environmental lobby calls the "American type reactor," the activities of the environmental groups will be fuelled.
  One of the arguments is that it is in Britain's interests to have the PWR because that will give us an export potential. That line of reasoning is strengthened because we were first to develop thermal nuclear power stations. The argument is that we have not been successful in exporting our stations, but that when we are involved in building a pressurised water reactor we shall be able to break through into the world market.
  There must be some doubts about that, if that is the declared aim of Government advisers who are trying to persuade the Government to build the PWR. If we build that PWR it will be started in about 1984, if we are lucky. If it is running by about 1991 the world will still want to know whether it has had a successful running-in period. That might take another two years. Therefore, we are talking in terms of 1993, if all goes well.
  Is it really suggested by Government advisers that even if two PWRs are operating successfully in the 1990s that will push us into the export market, when our competitors will have had years of experience—many more than we will have had? They will have a grip on the market. The argument is not strong. It is unlikely that we would have the capacity to break through a market that already is pretty well sewn up.
  It is ironic that on the day that we are dealing with safety and other aspects we should all receive booklets dealing with the safety of the AGR. The booklet is impressive by any standards. Whatever one might say about the British AGR, it has not been tainted by safely and environmental considerations to the same extent as the PWR. The CEGB booklet contains the caption
  "Why Britain needs the option of the pressurised water reactor."
  The booklet is more concerned with denigrating the AGR than it is with arguing the case for the pressurised water reactor. We are entitled to remind the CEGB that its record in power station choice leaves much to be desired.
  It is not yet proven that the pressurised water reactor, when and if it is built and commissioned, will be cheaper than the AGR. We may be indulging in a very costly gamble at the expense of our own indigenous technology. Some costings are given on page 407 of the first report of the Select Committee. These will have been perused by hon. Members. It is argued that the pressurised water reactor will be easier to construct because it lends itself to prefabrication. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) has, however, argued that it is likely that the AGR could be subject to some prefabrication. If that is true, it introduces a new aspect to the debate.
  Under the heading
  "Investment in UK manufacturing facilities"
  paragraph 8 on page 407 states:
  "The necessary investment in manufacuring facilities would amount to £16 million for the AGR and £12 million for the PWR. This assumes that the PWR pressure vessel, associated internals and parts of the steam generators would be imported for the 4-station programme".
  I wish now to turn to the issue of the import bill. Paragraph 9, under the heading, "Likely import bill" states:
  "For the AGR, the only significant import is the pitch coke for graphite production which would amount to £1.6 million per

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  station. The size of the import bill for the PWR would depend on the extent to which UK industry decides to participate in the production of components."
  Those arguing in favour of the pressurised water reactor have endeavoured to show that there would be only minimal export or import involvement, whichever way one views the matter, in PWR. The statement is qualified. It seeks to argue that the import part of the PWR is not clear. Hon. Members need to consider these matters. There is an import content apart from lost technology. We are entitled to ask the Government what this means in terms of job losses. This country is already job hungry. The figures I have read to the House are dated. The likely import bill will still stand.
  Another important matter is dealt with in the evidence on page 413 given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), the Secretary of State for Energy in the Labour Government, who said that
  "the Kraftwerk Union people came to see me and said: 'We can give you a better reactor than Westinghouse'".
  That important matter was raised in evidence that was submitted to the House of Commons, and I wonder whether it was ever pursued. Can the Government give us any information about that? I was at the meeting with the Kraftwerk Union. It said that, in its opinion, it could do a PWR cheaper, and that it was concerned to keep the AGR alive because if something were to happen and the PWRs ran into difficulty the world was surely entitled to an option on another nuclear power station. I therefore hope that the Government will tell us the position.
  The Chairman of the Select Committee, in introducing his report, and other hon. Members, made great play of CANDU as a reactor choice. So I shall say a word about CANDU. The Government's response to a request for an in-depth independent assessment of CANDU can be found in the White Paper of July 1981 on pages 14, 15 and 16. The Government argue there that they rejected the recommendation contained in the report of the Select Committee on Energy of 13 February 1981. The history of the SGHWR was brought into the argument in rejecting an independent assessment. I am not sure how powerful that argument was, because that reactor never became a reality, in a commercial sense, apart from the prototype at Winfrith. There are some people who still say that opposition within the industry to building the SGHWR, particularly the opposition of the CEGB, meant that it never had a chance. Frank Tombs, the former chairman, told me that when the decision was made in favour of the SGHWR.
  The Government rejected CANDU, but we should examine booklet No. 4, published by the CEGB. It gives the arguments against CANDU. It concedes, incidentally, that the reactor is working well. However, I am not sure how powerful the case is, when it says that even the self-confident Canadians have sold only six reactors mostly to the Third world, and that there is a world total of only 13 working with operational experience. That is not a valid argument, because it is well known that the argument in favour of the PWRs is based on the industrial size and the commercial entrepreneurial ability of America. So the argument is not strong.
  It is said, for example, that one of the difficulties about the CANDU is that it is necessary to have a heavy water plant. It is quite extraordinary for the CEGB to make this an environmental argument against the CANDU. Indeed,
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  it is ridiculous bearing in mind the environmental arguments against the PWR all over the world. I think that it is a bit rich of the CEGB to take that line.
  We are all very grateful for the contributions to the debate. Later, the Opposition will take up some of the issues raised about the public inquiry. We think that it is right to have a public inquiry, and we endorse the attitude that has emerged from the debate, that at the end of the day, after the public inquiry, the House must be given an opportunity to reach a decision about whether to go for the pressurised water reactor.
  9.36 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. John Moore): We have had a very wide-ranging debate, and I have missed only one contribution.
  I add my congratulations to those already offered to the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo (Mr. Lloyd), and to all the members of the Committee on their very hard work. I have not heard a speech of the quality of my hon. Friend's for a long time in the House, and I am sure that all of us interested in nuclear power benefited from it.
  I shall try to respond to the main areas of the debate. However, an inordinate number of legitimate issues have been raised, and I shall seek to write publicly to all the hon. Members who dealt with matters to which I cannot address myself in the limited time available to me.
  Apart from some specific areas, the debate followed five main themes. It touched on the nuclear need, on conservation perhaps as an alternative, on the Sizewell inquiry, on specific questions relating to waste and on safety.
  I go first to the issue relating to nuclear need. Right hon. and hon. Members covered almost all approaches—from that of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees), who talked essentially in terms of "steady as she goes", to the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo, my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost), my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) and the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), who all seemed essentially to argue in a very pro nuclear way in terms of electricity generation. My hon. Friend the Member for Havant and Waterloo spoke about the safest, most efficient and most productive form of energy, although among other matters he brought up the crucial need to build to time and to cost.
  Then we went to the other side of the equation. The right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) seemed to argue that nuclear power should be scaled down. He was joined in that assumption, I thought, by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon). I am not quite sure which party the hon. Gentleman was representing. In the absence of the SDP throughout the debate, I assumed that he was embracing in his anti-nuclear attitudes, although I respect the consistency with which he has always argued them, the views of the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties. But the absence of the SDP makes it difficult for me to judge.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mahon: At least two members of my party have been present during the debate. Certainly I have been here—[Interruption.] I have been in the House all this time—

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  [Interruption.] Let me make the position clear. The two parties do not necessarily identify themselves with what was said by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon).
  Mr. Moore: As always in these matters, now we know what the SDP do not agree about as opposed to its consistency in policy.
  I was saying that we went right to that extraordinary extreme, and I must tell the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East that I had considerable difficulty in trying to establish his views.
  In constitutional practice, it is a quite extraordinary new departure when those of us who seek to analyse past judgments, and who come to the Dispatch Box with a sense of responsibility for present decisions, are categorically told that the Labour Government's decision—announced at this Dispatch Box on 25 January 1978 and which sought to validate the PWR option—was not supported by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East. The right hon. Gentleman, who was Secretary of State at that time, said that he had no views in support of that issue, but had simply reiterated Cabinet policy. That is interesting. Most hon. Members would seek to disconnect themselves from Governments with whose policies they radically disagree.
  Mr. Benn: In case the hon. Gentleman should be thought to have made a valid point, I should stress that I spoke today in the same sense as the evidence that I gave to the Select Committee on 18 June 1980. My view is well known, and was at the time. It would be ludicrous if the minority in every Cabinet discussion resigned when they were shown to be so, and if one was tied for ever to a majority view.
  Mr. Moore rose——
  Mr. Benn: The hon. Gentleman made a very silly point. Resignations and dismissals from this Cabinet have revealed divergences. The Cabinet is there to discuss issues, not to tie people for ever to views.
  Mr. Moore: The House will not want me to belabour the point, but those of us concerned with Government and responsibility are always more interested in what hon. Members say and do in office than in what they say when they do not have the responsibility of power. The words of the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) were extremely appropriate in that regard and I took them seriously—[Interruption.] I am trying to discuss the Opposition's views and those of the Government on a serious issue, for which all of us would like to take responsible decisions. Many hon. Members—with the exception of the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter), who made a brief speech—missed one fundamental point on nuclear need. I refer to the time frame behind which so many decisions are made on energy supply. That time frame puts in doubt the judgment of those who, like the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East, said that there was no conceivable need on present policy.
  One understands the time frame of decision making. No doubt all hon. Members will have had an opportunity to study carefully the White Paper presented to the House in July. Within that context, the limited comments made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were clear. We consider not only supply capacity, new capacity, capacity related to growth—and limited expectations of
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  growth—but the need to replace obsolete and uneconomic capacity. As the hon. Member for Newton said in his excellent speech, we must value the flexible fossil fuels, which are such a rare resource in Britain's energy economy. It is those factors—drawn together by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—that make me draw attention to the statement in the White Paper that the Department will produce revised projections of energy demand in time for the PWR inquiry.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State clearly referred to the substantial margin of error. We humbly recognise that that factor attaches to such long-term projections. It makes no sense, to adopt a rigid plan or programme. We therefore propose to adopt a flexible approach, keeping our longer-term strategy under regular review and authorising specific new orders as and when we are satisfied that it is justified. The debate about the particulars of the Sizewell inquiry is relevant to the validating of the PWR option. I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks), the right hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) and the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) to the fact that the Government are net in the business of a 15 GW, 10-year programme. We have made it clear that we are not committed to such a programme of new stations. Each will be considered on its merits. We are not debating a specific programme.
  I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin and of many others who are legitimately concerned but who have not had the experience of the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) in the electricity supply industry to the nature of planning margins and planning capacity. Very few concern themselves with the problem of peak capacity and peak demand. My example is not germane to Scotland, but I remind all those who have directed attention to Scotland that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Scottish Office are members of the Government that I represent.
  At one stage in the cold spell in January, the CEGB faced a maximum demand in England and Wales of 42,616 MW. The plant available at that time produced a spare capacity of only 1,045 MW. Those who have experience in these matters, such as the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East, will be aware of the difference between peak capacity and overall long-term demand.
  There has been much debate on energy conservation and I beg the House to concern itself more seriously with the subject. I am not talking about the "soft embrace" between the extreme anti-nuclearists and those who legitimately want to see the promotion of good insulation activities because of all the job attractions in insulation projects. It might be useful to have a rational debate on electricity supply and conservation.
  The right hon. Members for Leeds, South and Bristol, South-East, my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin, the hon. Members for Truro and Newton, my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton (Mr. Watson) and the hon. Member for Swindon fell into the trap of failing to take account of the extremely limited amount of electricity used for space heating in the domestic market. About 65 per cent. of all energy consumed in the domestic market is used for space heating. Electricity provides only 7 per cent. of domestic space heating. Even if all domestic homes using electricity were able successfully to save 20 per cent. or 25 per cent. of the electricity now consumed, we might save about 2 per cent. of the gross energy requirement. That applies to

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  the whole of the United Kingdom. We must get that fact clearly into our minds. I do not deny the importance of conservation and insulation but we must understand the difference between electricity supply—especially peaking supply—and the realities of conservation.
  When the then Energy Conservation Bill was passing through Parliament, I stood at the Bar in another place to listen to erudite speeches from some noble Members of the Liberal Party, who drew attention to the likely change in electricity demand over the next 20 years. They claimed that additional demand within the domestic sector would come from additional purchases by individuals of electrical equipment.
  That was in no way connected with domestic space heating. They saw that the demand for electricity was rising, so they cannot have it both ways. They must begin to draw their party together in this crucial conservation debate.
  Mr. Penhaligon: Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that I specifically said that insulation and conservation would be viable only if we had a further swing to space heating by gas? I made particular reference to what may or may not happen in the South-West peninsula.
  Mr. Moore: I did not wish to be so rude as to develop the potentials of gas supply in the South-West and the under-capacity in that area. I thought that that would bring the point too much home to roost. I will deal with the point only in general, because a close examination of the realities as opposed to the desire for domestic insulation, alongside the distaste for nuclear power and the inability of people to understand the irreconcilability of those two features, is a fundamental flaw that those who are concerned with populist arguing for votes as opposed to arguing about decision-making on energy supply would do well to get to grips with.
  I turn to the nature of the comments about the Sizewell inquiry. Most of those hon. Members who are seriously involved in the subject have welcomed the ways in which the Government have tried to establish the ground rules for that inquiry. That has met with about almost universal support. There must always be one or two points where one does not have universal support. The first relates to what happens beyond the Sizewell inquiry—I am assuming that the inquiry is positive and that it recommends to the Secretary of State that there is a desire to go ahead. Many hon. Members expressed the view that it would be useful, preferable, right or proper—whatever the word used—to have a debate in the House at that stage in order to validate, confirm or discuss the Secretary of State's decision. My right hon. Friend was sympathetic to that view when it was expressed earlier today. I have heard the views from both sides of the House. At the time, the matter will be in the hands of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. However, I understand the feelings of the House, as does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
  Mr. Home Robertson: If there is ever a proposal for a PWR to be built in Scotland, will the Minister undertake that there will be a full public inquiry similar to the one at Sizewell?
  Mr. Moore: I am used to dealing with practical comments from Scottish Members. I prefer to deal with the practical and not the hypothetical in the limited time that I have.
  Many hon. Members mentioned aid to objectors at any public inquiry. My right hon. Friend made it quite clear that he would listen carefully to the debate. I cannot speak for him on the matter, but I know that he has listened and that he will read the debate with care. However, I must draw the attention of hon. Members on both sides of the House not only to the fact that there is no precedent but that the inquiry at Windscale, which took place when the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East was Secretary of State for Energy, did not provide such aid, and did not seem, to those who argued, to be lacking because of the absence of aid. I shall not labour the point, but I remind the House that a public inquiry is not a court of justice. The responsibility of the inspector, who is an independent and respected person, is to ensure that objectors' views are properly brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, South asked specific questions about the inquiry at Sizewell. The inquiry will be site specific beyond all the details shown in the statement of 22 July, which we have reconfirmed, and will consider the safety, environmental and economic implications of the PWR proposals. However, the board's application cannot be assessed in practice without the question of PWR technology being put under the microscope. I trust that that will answer the legitimate points of the right hon. Member for Leeds, South.
  The right hon. Gentleman also asked legitimate questions, as did many hon. Members, about waste. About 25 per cent. of BNFL's investment programme is for nuclear waste management. In addition, the Department of the Environment provides considerable sums for research into waste management projects.
  The right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East implied that the Government have shelved the vitrification programme and that a high level of liquid waste will be stored on the surface at Windscale for a long time, with the risk of another serious leak. That is not true. The vitrification programme is going ahead and the first line is expected to be in operation by 1987. Vitrification waste does not leak. It is because vitrified waste is safer to store than liquid waste that the Government have approved BNFL's vitrification programme. In answer to many other questions on similar points, the Government attach great importance to the safe and effective management of nuclear waste.
  It is the responsibility of the environment Ministers to ensure that adequate attention is paid to that aspect of the nuclear industry. The problems involved have been more thoroughly studied than those posed by any other kind of waste. The allegation sometimes thrown about by anti-nuclear groups that the problems are insoluble is quite unfounded. What is needed is the systematic application of known technology and sound common sense and a determined progress towards the provision of additional facilities where early disposal is the appropriate course of action. The Government have promised a White Paper on the matter, so I shall not go into further detail.
  Additional specific questions were asked by the hon. Members for Truro and for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and by my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith) concerning the programme of test

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  drilling and its discontinuance in connection with high-level nuclear waste. The Government believe that the feasibility of disposing of that waste in geological formations has been established in principle. We have reached that view in the light of a review of overseas work on high-level waste disposal. Nothing has emerged to show that such disposal would be unacceptable. The test drilling programme carried out by the Institute of Geological Sciences under contract to the Department of the Environment was not seeking sites for waste disposal. It was investigating properties of rock in different types of formation in the British Isles.
  The urgency for the disposal of high-level waste is also much reduced. Following advice from the radioactive waste management advisory committee, the waste is now expected to be stored at the surface in solid form for 50 years and possibly much longer. That will allow us to take advantage of the fall in both heat output and radioactivity before disposal. Research into the feasibility of disposal on or under the ocean bed will continue.
  Let me touch on one last major area before concluding. The right hon. Members for Leeds, South and for Bristol, South-East, the hon. Member for Newton and my hon. Friends the Members for East Grinstead and for Skipton all said that safety must be the most important single view that the Government take when looking at the development. Let us put nuclear safety in perspective. Let us compare it with industrial safety and environmental protection in other industries. Let us judge the nuclear industry on its track record and not by talking about potential hazards or unacceptable risks.
  By their very nature some industries are more hazardous to work in than others. Deep sea fishing, agriculture and quarrying all have a high incidence of accidents and injuries. The nuclear industry does not. The risks of death or injury are a good deal lower than in most manufacturing industries. There has not been one accident at a nuclear power station resulting in the death of an employee through exposure to radiation. In no other industry is the health and safety of employees so closely supervised by the management and monitored and regulated by the Government.
  The good industrial relations in the nuclear industry are also a pointer to the way in which health and safety are managed and the way in which the unions are involved in maintaining good safety practices. If anyone has a right to be critical of the safety standards in the industry it is the unions and their members who work in it; but it is notable that it is rather those not involved in the industry who are some of its most vociferous critics.
  Before the Sizewell inquiry is begun one cannot forecast what its findings on safety will be, but one can say that a vast volume of material, far more detailed and comprehensive than for any previous British nuclear
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  power project, will be submitted by the CEGB, published and carefully examined by Sir Frank Layfield and his assessors. Furthermore, even supposing that the inquiry's findings on safety are favourable, the CEGB will still need to satisfy the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate not only about the design of the reactor but on a continuing basis about its operation.
  Nor should we forget the great experience of the PWR which has by now been accumulated worldwide on the mass of research that has been done and the thousands of reactor years of operation. In submitting its proposals the CEGB will have drawn on that experience and incorporated whatever changes it believes may be necessary to meet the high standards of safety required in this country.
  I should like to deal with other points, but time is running out. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Slate said in opening, not the least important way in which the United Kingdom will have served the cause of nuclear development will be in providing for full and well-informed public discussion. This debate has contributed richly to that discussion.
  I compliment all right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the crucial exercise of widening understanding of our nuclear programme. The objective of the programme, which we should never lose sight o in the mass of technicalities, is to ensure a secure, continuing and reasonably priced supply of safe electricity to the homes and industries of this country. That is what the nuclear programme is about and in essence it is what the debate has been about.
  I shall sum up the Government's present position. All objective energy observers recognise that our supplies of fossil fuels are decreasing while the cost of extracting there is increasing. Moreover, all energy analysts agree that the fossil fuels are extraordinarily valuable, with uses beyond mere electricity generation. Therefore, straightforward common sense underlines the Government's commitment to the development of nuclear power as a source of electricity.
  It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.),
SEA FISHERIES
That the Fishing Vessels (Acquisition and Improvement) (Grants) Scheme 1981 (S.I., 1981, No. 1765), a copy of which was laid before this House on 18th December, be approved.—[Mr. David Hunt.]
Question agreed to.

Wrenbury Hostel, Nantwich
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. David Hunt.]
10.1 pm
Sir Nicholas Bonsor: I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to the House for the opportunity to raise a matter that should cause grave public concern. It arises from the decision of the Cheshire area health authority to close a hostel for the mentally handicapped in my constituency at Wrenbury.
I should like to tell the House something of the patients currently at that hostel, its purpose and the patients' way of life. At the moment there are 11 patients in the hostel, which is built to cater for 17. They range in ages from 28 to 73. Two of them are over 70—a 72-year-old and a 73-year-old, who have been there for 16 and 32 years respectively. All the people who live in the hostel consider it as home and consider the wardens who run it as their parents and the only people to whom they can turn for the love and affection that they need.
The manner in which the closure has been proposed of the hostel is also a matter that should cause the greatest concern, particularly because the doctor who is in charge of the patients, Dr. Austin, the psychiatrist who is responsible for looking after them and the medical director of Cranage hospital, to which the area health authority proposed to send the patients, agreed that any such move would have disastrous consequences on the health of the people who live in the hostel.
Whatever the merits or demerits of the closure of the hostel, nothing can excuse the manner in which the area health authority went about its task. Nothing can excuse the fact that, despite assurances throughout the proposal closure from the area health authority that each one of those 11 patients would be given individual attention and would be placed according to his needs, there was at all times a plan to put all 11 into a hospital the medical director of which said was totally unsuited to them.
When the local residents discovered that, and having more or less reconciled themselves to the fact that the hostel might have to be closed, they decided to take steps to do something to save those people from the danger in which they were placed, particularly as the doctor had said that the two 70-year-olds might not survive any further move from that place to another institution.
When the local residents got together and decided to form a charity, they asked me to come to their meeting and to do what I could to help. At the meeting they expressed a fear that the hostel might be closed before they had the opportunity to do anything to get their charity under way, to purchase the hostel and to make arrangements for the necessary funds to be raised to run it and to allow the residents to continue their lives in it.
Therefore, I telephoned Mr. Argent of the area health authority. He categorically assured me that nothing would happen until the end of February. It was upon that assurance that the committee and I assumed that there would be time for the charity to be formed. A few days later I wrote to the chairman of the area health authority, Mr. Stevens, and explained the position. I asked him to give us time, by deferring the closure until we could see whether the charity could be set up. He received that letter on 13 January and presented it to a meeting on either 14 or 15 January.
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Simultaneously with the meeting held by the area health authority, however, on its authority a van was sent to collect the residents from the Wrenbury hostel and remove them to Cranage mental hospital. That was done without informing the warden or any of the people concerned with setting up a charity to save the hostel. Indeed, it was done on a day when the area health authority officers believed that Mr. Stephens, the warden of the hostel, would be out on his day off. As fortune would have it, he did not go out and was at the hostel when the van arrived to remove the unfortunate patients to a place where a doctor had advised that at least two of them might die. The warden thus stopped the move and, with local councillors, residents and the police, prevented the people from being taken away.
After that, I again contacted Mr. Stevens, the chairman of the area health authority, and again requested time so that a charity could be set up. Notwithstanding the letter in which I had set out the facts or the way in which the residents were demonstrating their support for the hostel and those living in it, he refused point blank to defer closure of the hostel or to prevent the removal of the patients in any way. Fortunately, pressure on the ground was stronger and the people from Cranage returned without the patients. Moreover, I believe that my hon. Friend the Minister of State intervened to ensure that there would at least be an opportunity for the matter to be deabted in the House before any further steps were taken to remove the people from the hostel.
The story did not end there. Shortly afterwards, the warden of the hostel was summoned to a disciplinary hearing, the intention clearly being to dismiss him from his job and thus render the continued operation of the Wrenbury hostel impossible. Had the warden been removed, there would have been no further possibility of preventing removal of the patients to the mental hospital. On the advice of his union and others, the warden did not attend the disciplinary hearing but insisted that when he attended he should be properly represented by both a union representative and a legal representative. There the matter now stands.
A further letter was sent to the warden by a Mr. Briggs of the area health authority, however, couched in terms which, to put it mildly, were somewhat illiterate and which displayed great objection and hostility to the proposal to set up a charity, attempting to obstruct meetings being held at the hostel by those wishing to set up the charity and forbidding the holding of any further such meetings without his consent.
I should say at this point that the warden and his wife have shown unstinting devotion to the care of the patients, giving them love and understanding far beyond the call of duty. Indeed, in 1978, they were singled out in the regional health authority report by the author, Dr. Simon, who commended them for the care and affection given to the patients and for the loving and homely environment created for them.
Not content with the petty vindictiveness that it had so far displayed, the area health authority a week ago last Thursday removed the caravan which the Women's Institute had provided 15 months previously for the use of the unfortunate people at the hostel for rehabilitation and to help them to do useful things. The caravan was removed on the entirely spurious ground that it constituted a fire risk. It was subsequently sold for £50, despite the insurance valuation of £1,500 and notwithstanding the

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obvious anger of the people who had saved money and devoted much effort to provide it for the use of the patients. I do not know the real reason for that, but we are asked to believe that it was coincidental that such a move was made at precisely the time when there was a dispute about the future of the hostel.
To return to the charity and the possibility of keeping the hostel open, great steps have already been taken to set up the charity. An ad hoc committee has been formed. An independent valuation has been made by a qualified local valuer. If the district valuer sets a similar value on the property, I believe that funds are available for the purchase and continued running of the hostel.
Furthermore, the Department of Health and Social Security has been contacted and I have been assured personally by the Department's representative that the home will obtain section 1 classification at any rate for a 12-month period so that certain minor improvements may be made. Moreover, he sees no reason why that should not be permanent once the improvements have been made. The resident will then qualify for grants of up to £50 per week, plus £7.70 pocket money. That should enable many of the running costs to be defrayed from that source, particularly if another three or four residents can be found to add to the happy family living there at present.
I therefore believe that the proposition to form a charity is genuine. Certainly at the meeting I went to last week, which was well attended by local residents, there was an absolute determination to give support and continued help to the people who live in that hostel. They are largely integrated in to the local community. They go to the local pub. Some of them do odd jobs such as labouring. One plays snooker with friends.
As I have said before, all of them treat the hostel as their genuine home. They have all settled there, and are immensely upset at the prospect of being moved away from a village environment into a mental hospital where they will not be able to leave the buildings and there is no contact with the local people. They will be entirely reinstitutionalised and degraded from the stage that they have now happily reached. I very much hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will be able to give me assurances about the future of this project.
In particular, I ask for five things. First, there should be a swift valuation of the premises by the district valuer so that those trying to raise the charitable funds can know whether it is a serious possibility. Secondly, we should be given three months from the date of receipt of the valuation in which to set up the charity, and no move should be made to close the mental hostel during that period. Thirdly, there should be no further harassment of the warden by the area health authority, and there should be no question of disciplinary proceedings against him, which will only upset the running of the home. Fourthly, no further steps should be taken to prevent the residents and the voluntary helpers giving everything they can to keep the hostel going. Fifthly, they should he allowed to hold their meetings there and take the steps necessary to create the charity.
If those assurances cannot be given, I ask for a public inquiry into the conduct of the area health authority. I say that particularly in view of often-stated Government policy that there should be a move to small, community-integrated homes. A move with such determination in the opposite direction is something that the public has a right to see investigated.
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In the longer term, there should be a change in the law to make the new health authorities that are about to be set up more accountable to the Government and to this House, so that when lives are at stake and there has been suffering, as there has been in this case, those responsible are accountable for their actions.
10.14 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Nantwich (Sir N. Bonsor) for raising in such a clear way the proposed closure of Wrenbury hostel, Nantwich. This is an unusual closure proposal, involving as it does a small unit for the mentally handicapped with a surrounding community that has made clear its great support for the hostel's work. That support is not found everywhere. It is, therefore, right that we should consider carefully the proposals of the Cheshire area health authority.
In May 1980, the Cheshire AHA considered proposals from the Crewe health district to acquire premises at the former Soss Moss school for epileptics as a replacement for unsuitable accommodation at the adjacent Mary Dendy hospital for the mentally handicapped. Soss Moss consists of four residential homes, the former headmaster's house and assorted workshops and outbuildings.
The accommodation is largely on the ground floor and in good repair, and was likely to be available at a reasonable price. It was thought that it would be highly suitable for a number of elderly and frail mentally handicapped patients at present living in upper floor accommodation at Mary Dendy hospital. It was hoped that some patients in similarly unsuitable accommodation at Cranage Hall hospital might also go to Soss Moss.
However, it was recognised that acquisition of this property would entail a degree of rationalisation of mental handicap facilities in and around Crewe. In particular, Wrenbury and Tabley hostels and certain house units at Mary Dendy hospital were proposed for closure in order to contribute to the capital cost of acquiring Soss Moss and the subsequent revenue costs.
The Crewe community health council was approached for its views, although this was not at that time a formal closure proposal. On 14 May 1980, the CHC resolved:
"The Crewe Community Health Council agrees to the closure of Wrenbury and Tabley Hostels and the Moss and Ivy House units at Mary Dendy Hospital on condition that the capital and revenue monies are used to off-set the expenses of purchasing and running Soss Moss School as a unit for the mentally handicapped."
It might be helpful at this stage to describe Wrenbury Hostel. It is a small, 17-bedded unit in hutted premises which were erected as a temporary Land Army hostel in the Second World War. Only 12 of those beds are currently occupied. It is in a somewhat isolated situation with minimum public transport facilities and no adult training centre in the vicinity. Patient accommodation is, in the main, in dormitories with combined dining and recreation facilities. It has an establishment of two wardens who work different shifts with a very limited amount of domestic support. Relief cover for the wardens is provided by nursing staff from Cranage and Mary Dendy hospitals, a somewhat difficult arrangement.
The hostel was originally intended as an agricultural hostel for the less severely handicapped. The patients used to obtain casual employment on neighbouring farms, but with the increased mechanisation of agriculture, fewer and

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fewer were able to do so. Only one resident is now in regular outside employment. Others obtain casual employment or do domestic work in the hostel. A small amount of commercial work is undertaken at the hostel in the summer months.
Most of the hostel's residents are hospital long-stay patients and few have any connections of origin with the surrounding locality. Few of the residents require the constant medical or nursing attention which is the normal current criterion for hospital admission.
The role of Wrenbury hostel as part of the NHS is difficult to justify with conviction. A report in 1978 on mental handicap services in Crewe suggested that the hostel was serving no useful purpose in treatment, training or rehabilitation and recommended that discussions should be opened with the social services department with a view to its taking over responsibility for the hostel. Such discussions have taken place. The social services department recognises that most of the residents are probably their responsibility, but financial constraints and the fact that the hostel itself is not up to the normal standard of building expected of a social services facility have so far led to its declining to take on the hostel as it stands.
The future of Wrenbury if it were not to close is even more difficult to assess. Increasingly the sort of patient who would once be sent there is being discharged into social services hostels, group homes or the community. As a result, recent arrivals at the hostel have tended to be increasingly severely handicapped. To some extent, the hostel is beginning to function as an outpatient ward of Mary Dendy and Cranage Hall hospitals. The residents have to be transported to those hospitals for any rehabilitative work that has to be done.
It is very seldom that mentally handicapped patients from the locality of the hostel who would benefit from NHS treatment can be placed there. The number of long-stay NHS patients who could therefore benefit from the hostels will decline, while the number of handicapped and severely dependent patients who require ground floor accommodation in a hospital setting is growing. That means that while the utility of the hostel in a Health Service setting will decrease, the need for the acquisition and use of ground floor accommodation at Soss Moss is great. The proposed closure of the hostel is therefore, seen by the area health authority as instrumental in helping it to develop its proper responsibilities more adequately.
If the hostel is to close, eight of the current patients will move to the former headmaster's home at Soss Moss school, once a certain amount of building work there has been carried out. That house will provide facilities for semi-independent living. Two will go to Cranage hall hospital and the remainder to another block at Soss Moss school. The aim will be to provide the patients with an opportunity for more active rehabilitation—an opportunity they are largely unable to accept at present. It would then be possible for them to take advantage of Crewe health district's active programme of developing group homes so that ultimately some of the patients could be discharged to independent living.
The area health authority is of the view that the hostel is not suitable for alternative health service use. It intends that the hostel should be disposed of on the open market and the capital thus released committed towards the
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purchase costs of Soss Moss. Soss Moss has been acquired at this stage through a capital loan from the regional health authority. That is within my Department's general policy, which is that the release of resources within a priority sector should be reinvested to enhance care within that sector. Similarly, the revenue released would be used to supplement the funds of Mary Dendy and Cranage Hall hospitals. It is not possible, in advance of the district valuer's valuation, to say what the capital saving from closure would be, but the running costs are around £55,000 a year.
As to staffing implications, the staff at the hostel will be offered alternative employment within Crewe health district, although it is recognised that this work may be of a slightly different nature to that which they currently perform.
That, therefore, is the case for closure put forward by the area health authority. As was required, the authority undertook consultations on the closure proposal. Two community health councils are involved—Crewe and Macclesfield. Wrenbury hostel is physically located in the Crewe district, while Mary Dendy hospital and Soss Moss are within the Macclesfield district. At present, the latter facilities are run by Crewe health district, but they are to transfer to Macclesfield district health authority on 1 April. Both community health councils agreed to the closure.
There were objections, and those concentrated on the suggestions that Wrenbury hostel, in particular, and as my hon. Friend clearly said, provided a happy and community-linked environment for existing patients and that the patients were to a considerable extert integrated into the Wrenbury community. The area health authority recognises the force of those objections. However, it argues the the current use of the hostel should be viewed not in isolation but against possible alternative placements most suitable for each individual client. It points to the arguments that I outlined earlier—that is, that the role of the hostel in providing active treatment, training or rehabilitation is extremely limited and that by placing patients in the pre-discharge unit at Soss Moss it would be possible for many of them eventually to move to group homes in the community. In that setting they would have an equally good opportunity to develop the local support and friendship which the Wrenbury villagers have already demonstrated.
In short, the great majority of the objections related to a concern that the family-type living closely linked to the community would be lost by the former hostel residents if they were transferred to large hospitals. In reply, the authority has suggested that the relocation of each patient would be considered in that patient's interest and that most of the patients would be rehabilitated to group homes or other independent or semi-independent living, where similar community contacts could be engendered. The Cheshire area health authority considered the results of consultation in December last year and agreed to close Wrenbury hostel as soon as alternative facilities at Soss Moss were completed. Because the closure proposal was not objected to by the community health councils involved, there was no requirement for it to be referred to Ministers for a final decision.
I now turn to more recent events. During the early part of January, the heating equipment at Wrenbury was continually breaking down in the extremely cold weather. This entailed continued repair work by the district's

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engineers, who were also busy attending to breakdowns elsewhere. Eventually, the Crewe district management team decided that it was necessary to concentrate patients in as few locations as possible because it was becoming impossible to maintain services throughout the district. Accordingly, Wrenbury was to close on 15 January and the patients found alternative accommodation until the builders had completed adaptations to the accommodation at Soss Moss, which, as I said earlier, was earmarked for the Wrenbury patients. Fortuitously, the area health authority happened to be meeting that afternoon and endorsed the decision.
Meanwhile, a group of local residents in Wrenbury had gathered at the hostel with the intention of preventing the removal of any patients. The district administrator and the district nursing officer went to the hostel and, following a lengthy meeting with the local residents, agreed not to close the hostel on that day. This decision was taken in the light of two factors. First, the weather had become considerably milder and further trouble with the heating was not necessarily to be expected. Secondly, the residents announced their intention of holding a public meeting to see whether there was sufficient support to set up a trust fund to support the hostel outside the NHS.
In response to representations by my hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Minister for Health has written to the chairman of the Cheshire area health authority asking for his comments. This is essentially an issue for the local health authority, which has operational and planning responsibility for the mental handicap services in Crewe, but it seemed to my hon. Friend that there were one or two issues which needed to be aired more fully. First, we wish to be reassured that the alternative placement of the Wrenbury patients is satisfactory.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nantwich has referred in correspondence to suggestions that some of the patients may suffer seriously as a result of any move. Those suggestions were not made during the consultation process and I am not in a position to express an opinion on them, but this is clearly a development which the area health authority will wish to consider most carefully.
Secondly, I am firmly of the view that time must be given to the local residents to see if they can raise the funds to establish the hostel outside the NHS. As my hon. Friend said, some support was forthcoming at a public meeting held on 22 January.
The chairman of the authority has now replied. I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that no date will be fixed for closure until my ministerial colleagues and I have had the opportunity to consider the matter further. The proposal put forward by my hon. Friend that closure
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should be deferred for three months from the date of a valuation of the site by the district valuer seems to me to be sensible. This means, of course, that the final decision on the future of the hostel will fall to be taken by the new Crewe health authority after 1 April.
As part of his five-point programme, my hon. Friend has called for a public inquiry into the proposed closure and into the authority itself. I hope that he will now feel that this may not be needed.
In conclusion, I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising the issue. Although the hostel is small and the number of patients affected few, it is entirely right that this House should devote the same degree of attention to those few patients as to a larger number affected by a major closure. I can see the force of the area health authority's argument that the balance of advantage for all mentally handicapped patients in the district lies in the proposed rationalisation of facilities, but I am equally concerned that the support which the villagers of Wrenbury have offered the hostel should not be lightly rejected. I am delighted that the chairman of the area health authority has agreed to allow time for further consideration of the matter. 1 think that the right course is now for all interested parties, including the Social Services Department, to use this breathing space to see how the local interest that the closure proposal has aroused can be harnessed to best effect.
My hon. Friend raised five points. He asked about the valuation. I hope he will agree that the area has met him on this, in that there will be three months' grace after the district valuer has reported to give time for the money to be raised.
I cannot answer my hon. Friend on the question of the warden, because that is a matter for local management, and it would be wrong for Ministers to interfere.
I hope that I have persuaded my hon. Friend that a public inquiry is not necessary now.
With regard to my hon. Friend's last point, all I cart say to him is that, while his suggestions about a change in the law is interesting, if I were to develop it at any length, he would rightly remind me that Adjournment debates are not intended for proposals that may change the law. If he cares to write to me in some detail I shall gladly have the matter investigated to see whether, on a more appropriate occasion—and if there is any proposal to change legislation—the pertinent points, which he has raised can be taken into account.
I compliment my hon. Friend on the deep interest that he has taken in these very unfortunate people, and I hope he will feel that his efforts tonight were well worth while.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at half past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Reverend Lord Sandford.
The Earl of Airlie—Took the Oath.

Cruise Missiles: Operational Control
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will be able to exercise an absolute veto over the firing of any one of the 160 cruise missiles planned for installation at Greenham Common and Moles-worth under US command, and if so, how British operational control is to be exercised in the absence of a "dual key" arrangement.
The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Viscount Trenchard): My Lords, as I have already made clear to the House, the use by the United States in an emergency of bases in the United Kingdom, including those on which cruise missiles will be based, would be a matter for joint decision between the two Governments in the light of circumstances at the time. These arrangements have existed for nearly 30 years and have been supported by successive Governments. It would not be in the public interest to disclose the detailed arrangements.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is it not the case that the Government have surrendered operational control over these weapons and have therefore ensured that in time of international crisis the people of this country could be sacrificed not by their own decision, not even by a decision of Her Majesty's Government, but perhaps by the decision of an ill-informed American President, who would not himself suffer the immediate consequences of his own decision? Will the Government tell the Americans that United States forces on British soil and in British waters must operate under British command or not at all?
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I do not agree that the United Kingdom Government have surrendered control, and I shall not repeat my first Answer. We have complete confidence in the working of the NATO Alliance now and in times of emergency or stress. I think that the people of this country are very grateful, or should be very grateful, for the deployment of American missiles to take the place of ageing bombers in exactly the same way as the bombers have operated for the last 30 years. The deterrent power of our alliance has kept the peace.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, is the noble Viscount the Minister aware that, so far as I know, we are not at
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war with any other nation and we have no intention of using cruise missiles against any other nation? If it were our intention to use them, it would be very stupid on the part of Her Majesty's Government to make a public announcement as to when we would use them, how we would use them, and in what particular circumstances we would use them. In fact, is not the Answer to a Question of this kind—if I may say so with great respect—hypothetical?
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I agree with the vast majority of the noble Lord's sentiments, and I am sure that the House does, too.
Lord Mayhew: My Lords, while I agree with the spirit of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, may I ask whether it is not a fact that Her Majesty's Government already accept dual key arrangements for a number of nuclear weapons on the Continent? Therefore in that case is it not self-evident why there is not a much better case for having dual key where the weapons are stationed in the United Kingdom.
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I think the noble Lord will know that the dual key arrangements for some weapons on the Continent relate to those weapons that are jointly paid for between allies, where one ally provides one part of the weapon and has the key, and another ally provides another part. In the case of these missiles the United States are supplying the whole missile and the warhead, just as they did for their bombers before them, and are paying the entire bill. We are entirely satisfied that dual key is not applicable in those circumstances, but that the joint decision arrangements are entirely reliable, particularly since these bases lie within the United Kingdom, so that even those who may wish to conjecture about a very reliable ally perhaps going mad at some future date should recognise that we have the full power to ensure that our agreement is carried out.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that when the bombs begin to fly there will be no time for negotiations and decision about the use of American weapons in this country, and are not these modifications absolutely useless in that kind of emergency situation?
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, the whole purpose of the alliance and all the arrangements is to ensure that the bombs do not fly, and I am absolutely convinced that they will be successful. Matters such as very fast communications, and steps to be taken in an emergency, have to be worked out so that deterrence shall be credible. They have been worked out, but it is not in the public interest for me to disclose the details of them.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the alliance has worked extremely well over the last 30 years and that we put everything in jeopardy if these Questions are asked so frequently?
Viscount Trenchard: I entirely agree, my Lords.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the noble Viscount the Minister aware that quite a number of people who do not accept the unilateralist argument are none the less disturbed by the fact that we do not exercise operational control over a weapon to be fired within our own borders? Would he not agree that the decision in this matter should be based not on who pays for the weapon and what is its cost, but on which country it is located in? Since it is located in our country, would not the Minister agree that we ought at least to exercise dual key control?
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, for all the reasons that I have stated I do not agree with either proposition, and I think that the Government and most of the House agree that our total security depends upon a close working alliance and confidence between the partners.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, could my noble friend say whether the questioner, Lord Jenkins of Putney, has asked the Government to make representations concerning the 280 USSR SS20 nuclear weapons which are currently deployed in eastern Europe? Are these same questions to be answered by the Soviet Union as well?
Viscount Trenchard: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord who asked the Question has heard the comments of my noble friend, and will press the USSR on this kind of point.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, I would be happy to do so if, unfortunately, the SS20s were located in this country.

Industrial Research and Development
2.43 p.m.
Lord Gridley: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action is being undertaken to ensure that basic industrial research in the United Kingdom is developed and marketed to our advantage.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, the Government provide encouragement for the development of all industrial research through a variety of schemes designed to help companies to launch new or improved products and processes more quickly and more effectively. The Department of Industry spent over £200 million on research and development in 1980/81. This included research in its own and other laboratories and over £100 million spent directly in industry. The department works closely with the research councils to ensure that basic research, relevant to industrial needs, is effectively developed.
Lord Gridley: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend the Minister for that Answer and appreciating the efforts being made by Her Majesty's Government in this connection, may I ask him, in relation to basic
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industrial research, whether there is anyone monitoring the achievements and discoveries made, which might have application to other basic research in progress or completed? May I also ask my noble friend whether, if this is so, this would not cut costs and save duplication, and increase still further our competitive position?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, it is the function of those directly concerned with individual research projects to monitor their effectiveness and what they are achieving, but I hope my noble friend will know—I am sure he does—of the role of the British Technology Group. The National Research Development Corporation and the National Enterprise Board, working together under this new title, the British Technology Group, have particular responsibilities to exploit and market the results of publicly-funded research from universities and Government laboratories, and to keep an eye on this part of the scheme. Perhaps my noble friend would like to know that the total amount of money spent on research in this way is of course very much more than the figure I have given, but I rather directed my answer towards that spent specifically on industrial research. But, if my noble friend would like a more detailed breakdown of the totality of what is being spent, I will try to get it for him.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the most favourable circumstances for ensuing profitable development is the overall profitability of the industry responsible for the development?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I entirely agree with that, and that is why it is so critically important that industry be in a position where it can make its profits and therefore plough back more resources into research.
Lord Molloy: My Lords, while acknowledging the importance that the noble Lord correctly gives to industrial research, is he not aware that the future looks rather grim in this particularly vital respect if the cuts in education proceed right through the comprehensive schools, technical colleges and our universities, and that the effect of this can be very serious and have a deleterious effect on industrial research and, indeed, cast a shadow over our industrial future?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will be glad to know that in fact the expenditure by the research councils, which finance much of the research activity in universities, is being maintained at broadly the current levels throughout the period up to 1983–84, and that indeed the five research councils will spend a total of £447 million in that way.
Baroness Wootton of Abinger: My Lords, how does the noble Lord the Minister reconcile this with the drastic cuts in university grants, particularly to universities such as Aston in Birmingham, who have specialised in technological research of industrial value?
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that the figures I have given are the correct figures. The way in which the funds are apportioned is of course up to the universities themselves to decide, but in the case

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of the specific topic on which we are talking today—namely, research—I think I have indicated that that is in fact being maintained at the current levels.
Lord Wynne-Jones: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for what he has been saying, which is very valuable, but will Her Majesty's Government bear in mind that, despite the considerable sums of money which the Government are quite rightly giving to the research councils, none of the money which goes to universities can be used for the overheads of the universities in maintaining the research? In other words, if a sum of, say, £10,000 or more is given for a particular piece of work, the university has to find the overheads for that work, and this can be a very serious matter. It can often amount to something like 20 per cent. of the total cost of the research.
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very fair point. I cannot comment upon it here, but certainly I will discuss it with those concerned.
Lord Spens: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that a symposium of directors of research of about a dozen of the largest companies has now started to meet fairly regularly under the chairmanship of the professor of cybernetics at Brunel University in order to see whether they can establish some form of library of research products which individual companies perhaps no longer need to use but which otherwise might lie on their shelves unused by anyone else? They are having a meeting next week, I think, and I am pretty sure that they have invited a representative of the NRDC.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness Young): My Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Spens, be good enough to put his question?
Lord Spens: My Lords, I put it at the beginning. I said, "Is the Minister aware …?".
Lord Bellwin: My Lords, the answer is, No, the Minister is not aware—correction: the Minister was not aware; he is now aware.

Exchange Control
2.50 p.m.
Lord Harris of High Cross: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered the merits of repealing the Exchange Control Act 1947, in view of the damaging uncertainties caused by periodic speculation about the restoration of control over international capital movements.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Lord Cockfield): My Lords, all member states of the European Community are required by the Council directive of 21st March
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1972 to be able to act, where necessary, on capital flows without further enabling measures. We therefore need to keep the powers in the Exchange Control Act 1947 on the statute book.
Lord Harris of High Cross: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Leaving aside the specific and, I think, relatively narrow issue of complying with the EEC directive, may I ask this further question: Would the noble Lord and, indeed, the Government attach no weight to the view that retention on the statute book of the full panoply of the 1947 Exchange Control Act leaves the door wide open to periodic disruptive and even mischievous speculation that full-scale control might be reimposed over both direct investment and portfolio investment at some stage between now and the next election, whenever that may be?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, compliance with directives of the EEC is not a narrow or technical point at all. Secondly, on the point of substance, my right honourable and learned friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said on a number of occasions that we had no intention of reintroducing exchange control. So far as the question of speculation and damaging uncertainty is concerned, there is no support for that view in the figures. On the contrary, looking at portfolio investment (which is the most sensitive item from that point of view) in the first quarter of 1981 the outflow was £1.3 billion, in the second quarter £1.1 billion and in the third quarter it fell even further to £0.6 billion.
Lord Jacques: My Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that since exchange controls were removed there has been an outflow of capital of £13,000 million and that the inflow has been only £7,000 million, and that this huge gap is having an upward pressure on interest rates which are crippling even our most efficient firms and discouraging investment in home industry?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, the noble Lord's conclusions are quite unwarranted. The net outflow is simply the counterpart of the very large surplus we have earned on the balance of payments—a thing in which I think noble Lords opposite would take as much satisfaction as we ourselves do. Had there not been this outflow of sterling, the exchange rate would have been much higher than it is and that would have done considerable damage to British industry.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, whatever fear there may be of dramatic change if there was a change of Government in the future, under the present Government there is general confidence that the benefits of a free market in this particular respect are well understood and that there is every confidence that the present Government will not change it?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, my noble friend is entirely right, and the points he makes are of great importance.

The A.34 Whitway Diversion
2.54 p.m.
Lord Melchett: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why in the case of the Whitway diversion they have ignored their own legal advice to the effect that when there are unwithdrawn objections to a trunk road diversion "normally an inquiry should be held" unless, along with other matters, only a few objections have been received.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the noble Lord is quoting from a guidance manual for officials. This does not remove the duty on Ministers and officials to consider each case on its merits. In the case of the A.34 Whitway diversion, my right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Transport and the Environment were satisfied that an inquiry was not necessary to enable them to have sufficient information on which to reach a decision.
Lord Melchett: My Lords, while I concede that Government Ministers may be happy to ignore the legal advice they have been given when it suits their case to avoid a public inquiry, are they not bound by the same laws as everyone else? Can the noble Earl confirm that the legal advice that the Department of Transport has been given makes it clear that a public inquiry into a proposal of this sort cannot be dispensed with when, among other matters, a matter of public importance is involved? Would he confirm that a letter from that department has confirmed that in this case a matter of public importance is involved?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, I cannot tell him what the advice is from officials to the Minister; it is confidential. The Ministers were satisfied in the light of all relevant information that a public inquiry would serve no useful purpose. There were no statutory objections in this particular case, and although it may be normal it is not necessary to hold an inquiry.
Lord Melchett: My Lords, with respect, the noble Earl did not answer my supplementary question. I was not asking him to tell the House what advice was given. May I ask whether he will confirm that the legal advice that the department received, and which is published for all to see in the Highways Manual, states that normally an inquiry should be held and that it may only be dispensed with not on the grounds that the noble Earl has said this one was dispensed with by the Secretary of State but on other grounds; and that there had to be a series of things that were not complied with, one of which was that the proposal does not raise issues of substance or matters of general public importance and, secondly, that there are no outstanding objections—not from statutory objectors, but any objections—which would not be usefully aired at a public inquiry? Will the noble Earl confirm that that is the legal advice that the Secretary of State received?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the noble Lord continues to mix up legal advice with the Highways Manual, which is an internal procedure manual about policies and guidance. As I said in my earlier reply, the advice from officials, which includes lawyers, is of course, confidential. Again, as I said in an earlier reply, it is usual but not invariable to hold inquiries. In this case Ministers were satisfied that, despite the objections, the point at issue is straightforward.
Lord Elwyn-Jones; My Lords, in the face of the number of objections, why was not the ordinary procedure of an inquiry followed? This is apparently a very important diversion affecting a lot of people interested in the immediate area.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord may be aware that there were 60 letters of objection and petitions objecting to the scheme containing 165 signatures. There have been received 26 letters and a petition with 404 signatures in support of the scheme. None of the landowners affected has objected and the local support far outweighs the local objections. It is a decision made by my right honourable friends and I cannot pre-empt any decision on the order that they may reach following their consideration of the objections and representations.
Lord Boyd-Carpenter: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us are glad to see that Ministers in this position are not always taking the easy course of passing responsibilities over to a public inquiry but, rather than face the delay and expense which the public inquiries involve, arc taking decisions for which they take responsibility? Is this not a very good thing?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, of course I accept my noble friend's remarks.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, would not the Minister confirm that in addition to the legal manual to which my noble friend referred—or the legal advice—
Several Noble Lords Several Noble Lords: No! Not legal.
Lord Melchett: Yes, legal.
Lord Underhill: My Lords, will not the Minister agree that, in addition to the comments made by my noble friend, the appropriate schedule to the Highways Act provides that the Minister may dispense with an inquiry if he is satisfied that the circumstances are such that it is unnecessary? Would the Minister therefore not agree that the impression he has given is that the Minister has made up his mind in this case and has done nothing to allay public concern? Surely, that is a consideration—not merely that the Minister is satisfied himself but that he must satisfy the public that the thing is correct?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I believe that when the Ministers make their orders they will satisfy the public. The statutory order under the Highways Act which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, quoted is right. He is right to say that when they consider that holding an inquiry is unnecessary they may dispense with such an inquiry; and that is what they have done.
Lord Melchett: My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm that the paragraph I was quoting from the Highways Manual, which he continues to discount, starts by saying:
"The effect of legal advice is that"?
In other words, can he confirm that the legal advice which the department has received is as I have quoted it? Secondly, can he confirm that the petition with around 400 signatures in support of this scheme states that those people signing it have considered alternative routes? Since the time when it was signed, the department involved have confirmed that no alternative routes have been discussed with the public, put on show or mentioned to any members of the public. Would he agree that that somewhat reduces the value of that particular petition?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I think the easiest answer is to say, No, my Lords. If I may come back to the original one, I must go back to saying that advice from officials, which includes lawyers, is confidential. This is a ministerial decision which the Ministers are making. I should like to make one more point which I do not think has come out. These outstanding objections, although they are numerically large, really relate essentially to one point. It is this final one which has led my right honourable friends to think that no inquiry is necessary.

LORD RITCHIE-CALDER
Lord Brockway: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House whether we may have an opportunity to express our regret at the death of Lord Ritchie-Calder for his notable contributions to this House, his service to humanity and his distinguished contribution to science?
Baroness Young: My Lords, I am quite sure that the whole House echoes the words of the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, on this matter. We all appreciate the contribution of Lord Ritchie-Calder. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, will know, it has not been the practice of the House to pay public tribute to all Members of your Lordships' House.

Legal Aid Bill [H.L.]
Lord Denham: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make further provision with respect to the giving of legal aid, advice and assistance in criminal cases, and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Business of the House
Baroness Young: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 43 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with for the purpose of taking the Currency Bill and the Social Security (Contributions) Bill through their remaining stages tomorrow.—(Baroness Young.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Mental Health (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
3.5 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Elton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 40 [Practitioners approved for purposes of Sections 38 and 39]:
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 95:
Page 29, line 22, leave out ("Minister for the Civil Service") and insert ("Treasury").
The noble Lord said: Since the Bill was introduced, the functions of the Civil Service Department relating to this Bill have been transferred. Clauses 40 and 41 required the Secretary of State to obtain the approval of the Minister for the Civil Service for payments to be made to two groups of people: the independent doctors who are to give second opinions under the consent to treatment procedures, and the persons who carry out the "watchdog" role in Clause 41—that is, the members of the Mental Health Act Commission. The function of approving payments of this sort is now to be undertaken by the Treasury, and these amendments make the appropriate change. I hope they are acceptable to the Committee. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Winstanley Lord Winstanley moved Amendment No. 96:
After Clause 40, insert the following new clause:
("Repeal of s. 141 of principal Act
.—(1) Section 141 of the principal Act is hereby repealed.
(2) No criminal proceedings shall be brought against any person in any court in respect of any act done or purporting to be done in pursuance of the principal Act or this Act without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.").
The noble Lord said: I do not need to say much about this amendment. The Committee will recall that it was discussed with an earlier amendment, No. 72, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. That sought merely to repeal Section 141 of the principal Act without dealing with the matters in subsection (2) of this proposed new clause.
In the course of the discussions on that earlier amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, was kind enough to say he might look favourably on this amendment—at least on that part of it which provided

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that cases would not be brought before the courts without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Briefly, I seem to recollect that the noble Lord's anxieties about repealing Section 141 of the principal Act were because that would somehow produce an undesirable vacuum. At the same time it was clear from the noble Lord's remarks that there is the feeling that Section 141 will at some stage have to be repealed. We are awaiting decisions from Europe which may affect our policy. It may be necessary to substitute something in place of Section 141 of the principal Act.
The point I argued earlier in Committee was this: merely passing this particular amendment does not of course wipe out Section 141 of the principal Act as from now. It merely sets in train a procedure which I understand the Government will be following inevitably at some later course of this Bill. I am asking why, if it is our intention sooner or later to repeal Section 141, we should not now say so?
With regard to the second part of this amendment, I think that this was dealt with fairly fully by my noble friend Lord Hooson, who unfortunately cannot be in the Committee today owing to illness. I much regret that because I should value his assistance on this matter. I think that he argued clearly the case that this deals with the matter of criminal proceedings brought before the courts regarding staff, and that here none of those proceedings could be brought without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions. It leaves out the separate matter of civil actions. That is not a matter upon which I personally feel competent to argue. My recollection is that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, was not unfavourable to this amendment in some form, or certain parts of it. Perhaps if I move it we may hear whether the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has had any second thoughts. I beg to move.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I rise to support the amendment very briefly. It goes a little further than the amendment which was not acceptable to the Government. It involves staff, and I am fully aware that staff may be concerned about the repeal—in fact there is no doubt about it, many of them are—and that this amendment might be more acceptable as it requires screening for prosecutions. The director has stated that, apart from consideration of public policy, he will not consent to any prosecutions that have less than a 50 per cent. chance of success.
A very important point is that the inclusion of mental health staff among those requiring the director's consent before prosecutions puts them in the same category as doctors generally. Professional men are public figures, and none of them, even if it is consent only, will be prosecuted for a serious offence without the matter being referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions. This amendment is phrased in a form which should be acceptable to the Government. I strongly support it.
Baroness Faithfull: May I ask for specific information of the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley? Does his amendment—I imagine it does—offer safeguards for members of professions other than the medical profession and
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associations who appear to be concerned? I refer to people such as the physiotherapists, occupational therapists and all others concerned who would like to be reassured that their interests are safeguarded.
Lord Winstanley: It is my understanding that it is our intention that all those people should be so covered. We are not singling out one section of the staff engaged in these difficult duties. We hope that this will apply to all staff who might be involved in treatment and therefore might be in jeopardy or at risk from proceedings of this kind. This is our intention.
Baroness Faithfull: I should be happy if one word were put in: not only the word "treatment" but the words "care and treatment".
Lord Mottistone: I am slightly confused by this latest interchange between my noble friend Lady Faithfull and the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley. It seems to me that the basic purpose of this amendment is to repeal the 1959 Act. The part I am particularly concerned about—I am sure that my noble friend Lord Elton is aware of this—is that it will remove the safeguards that are at present there for various public servants in relation to civil action. I have no very strong argument against the modification to the criminal part which it within this amendment, but I would have thought it is most undesirable to remove the safeguards that are within Section 141 of the 1959 Act with regard to civil action. I hope that my noble friend, when he comes to reply, will reassure me on that point.
Lord Renton: I must apologise to your Lordships for being unable to be here at the beginning of this short discussion. I had to attend a memorial service out of London. I do not wish to repeat what I said when we were discussing an amendment on the same point moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, but I should like to make two brief comments.
Clearly, Section 141 of the 1959 Act is not satisfactory. It really ought to engage the attention of the Government with a view to replacing it with something better. On the criminal side of the matter, clearly it is more usual, when safeguards are sought against the bringing of unsuitable criminal proceedings, to get the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions, as Amendment No. 96 suggests.
On the civil side—this is my second comment—I do not know of any precedent for what Section 141 does; namely, to require the consent of the High Court before proceedings are brought in the High Court. That would place a master in the High Court, hearing the original application, and later the judge, in a very difficult position. The master clearly would have to go into the merits of the matter and see whether there was a prima facie case. Once he had done so, it could be that, not without reason, the judge would be reluctant to come to a different conclusion. After all, this would not be an appeal from the master to the judge; and, while fully bearing in mind what my noble friend Lord Mottistone has said and the disquiet he has expressed, I would remind your Lordships that it would be wrong to place too great an embargo on the taking of civil proceedings.

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We have had some very bad cases in recent years of mistreatment of patients in special hospitals—glaring cases. Admittedly, they have led to criminal proceedings after a suitable inquiry, and of course we know that, when the same facts lead to both criminal and civil proceedings, the criminal proceedings have to come first. But people should not lose their right to take civil proceedings if it is appropriate that they should do so, or their right not to have too great an embargo placed upon them in doing so.
Therefore, I appeal to my noble friend Lord Elton to say that, so far as criminal proceedings are concerned, what is proposed in Amendment No. 96 is clearly right. So far as the civil proceedings are concerned, would he take advice of the Law Officers and, if necessary, of the court authorities and see whether we cannot introduce something more suitable than is at present the law?
Lord Elton: In rising to reply to this short debate, I should like to extend my sympathy to the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, whose indisposition I was sorry to hear of. I hope he will he with us again soon. If I can recapitulate—I do not wish to go over stale ground either—the original amendment on this subject was No. 72. That removed the protection against vexatious litigation provided by Section 141 entirely, and substituted nothing else. This amendment also removes the protection provided by Section 141 and substitutes something else, so far as criminal, though not civil, proceedings are concerned.
As regard the civil proceedings, I have not altered the view which I expressed during an earlier debate. Here perhaps I might say to the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, that when one offers to come back to an issue it is at the next stage of the Bill rather than as an extension of the same stage, so I cannot claim to have gone through the reflective process that I promised when we were talking about Amendment No. 72. As I say, I have not changed my view, and since we debated this last I have been to two more mental handicap hospitals and my admiration for what is done there has increased considerably. I see the difficulties that exist, where there is a great deal of work to be done, if there is a prospect of being picked up and taken to court on issues that may or may not he trivial. Then, there is a great incentive always to see that you are accompanied at least by a reliable witness. That, in itself, has considerable implications for the running of this kind of establishment.
As for the matter of the criminal prosecution, the proposal in the amendment—that is endorsed by my noble friend—is that for the master in the High Court there shall be substituted the sieve (if that is the word), to take out vexatious cases, of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I think we are a little beforehand. There is a case at present with the European Commission for Human Rights which is going to be heard this very Friday, and there is the likelihood of its going to the court thereafter. I think that to anticipate the results of that would be unwise. In what way it may or may not prove necessary to amend Section 141 of the principal Act in the light of that decision, I cannot foretell; nor, I think, can the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, or my noble friend. I have already said that in the light of that it may be necessary to consider the appropriateness of this sieve. I will certainly
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bring into that consideration what my noble friend has said, because I think that is new to this debate, as regards the position in which it places the individual member of the High Court when leave to prosecute is sought. However, I would say that to carry this amendment at this stage would be really pre-emptive and unwise, and I hope that noble Lords will accept my assurances of the Government's view of this and agree not to press the amendment.
Lord Winstanley: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his answer, so far as it goes. I am also grateful to him for what I understand to be his sympathetic response, in a sense, to the opinions and feelings lying behind this amendment
I would wish to do little more at this stage save to echo every single word spoken by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, who I think got the thing entirely right. I agree with him wholeheartedly that Section 141 of the principal Act will have to be repealed sooner or later. I entirely agree with him, too, that when that repeal takes place, or following it, some other safeguard will have to be substituted to deal with the whole question of vexatious cases in the civil courts. Also, at that time I think that something like our subsection (2) will have to be put in, in order to take care of the situation with regard to cases before the criminal courts. I think there will be time before this Bill finally comes on to the statute book for these various matters to be considered. It may be that, even before we reach Report stage here, there will have been developments in Europe that will make it utterly clear that changes will have to be made. Therefore, there is time. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment for the moment, but we may, of course, return to this subject at later stages of the Bill.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 41 [General protection of detained patients]:
3.20 p.m.
Baroness Faithfull Baroness Faithfull moved Amendment No. 97:
Page 29, line 42, at end insert—
("and
(c) to discharge unlawfully detained patients").
The noble Baroness said: Clause 41 deals with the general protection of detained patients and this is just a simple amendment, covering the ability of the Secretary of State to discharge unlawfully detained patients. I beg to move.
Lord Elton: This amendment would mean that members of the Mental Health Act Commission would be authorised to discharge patients who were unlawfully detained. I do not think that that is something which is consonant with what we are trying to do in this Bill. The Mental Health Act Commission is about the welfare of patients while they are detained. It is the mental health review tribunal which is about discharging patients. Therefore, this amendment seems to me to confuse two issues, because we are talking about two different types of case.
The first type is where commission members look at the papers which authorise a patient's detention, and have reason to think that the proper procedures have not been followed. The appropriate action there will be for the commission to report this to the hospital

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managers. It is the hospital managers—that is, the health authority—who are responsible for detaining the patient, and for ensuring that the legal procedures for admission and renewal of detention are followed properly in every case. If the managers are told by the commission that there seems to be an irregularity they can investigate exactly what happened and take appropriate action.
If I may simplify, nobody may detain a patient unlawfully, once the unlawfulness is apparent, and hospital managers would automatically release a patient in those circumstances. If they did not, habeas corpus would be one trenchant recourse of the patient and of the patient's friends. I hope that that explanation suffices to deter the noble Baroness from pressing the amendment.
Baroness Faithfull: I thank my noble friend the Minister for that explanation. With that, I beg to leave withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 98:
Page 30, line 18, leave out ("Minister for the Civil Service") and insert ("Treasury")
The noble Lord said: This is a consequential amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 42 [Mental Health Act Commission]:
3.23 p.m.
Baroness Faithfull Baroness Faithfull moved Amendment No. 99:
Page 30, line 31, at end insert—
("() the Secretary of State shall direct the Commission to provided an annual report").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment—
Lord Wallace of Coslany: Before the noble Baroness proceeds, may I say that my Amendment No. 101 and Amendment No. 101B of the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, are virtually the same, but the noble Lord and I differ from the noble Baroness on a very important point of detail. Also, I doubt whether the noble Baroness has put her amendment in the right place.
Lord Elton: I think that the noble Lord opposite is suggesting that the three amendments should be considered together, and giving a warning to my noble friend that he does not agree with her amendment in one respect—
Lord Wallace of Coslany: That is very clever of the Minister; I entirely agree with him.
Baroness Faithfull: I appreciate the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in that all of these amendments are on the same subject. But I should first like to ask my noble friend the Minister how he envisages that this commission will work. As I understand it, there will be 70 members on the commission; mental hospitals will be visited twice a year and special hospitals will be visited once a month.
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I am very worried about the setting up of this commission, because there is already hospital service visiting, and one wonders what has been happening in the past with the hospital service. Secondly, there is the management committee; and then there are the tribunals. So will this not be a very heavy bureaucratic machine which is being set up?
I have said in my Amendment No. 101A, if I may also speak to that, that the work and role of the commission should be reviewed, reassessed and, if necessary, terminated in five years. I believe that, unless one sets a date for a consideration of the role of such a body as the commission, it will just go on. I feel extraordinarily worried about this commission. I believe that it should start, but it should be terminated in five years' time if it has fulfilled its role. Therefore, I am in some difficulty now. At this stage, I will not say anything more, because other noble Lords will want to speak to their amendments covering the same subject. I beg to move.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: If it is convenient to the Committee, I shall now move my Amendment No. 101 —page 30, line 40, at end insert—
Lord Elton: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but he cannot move his amendment now. He can speak to it, but amendments have to be moved one after the other. However, the noble Lord can speak to amendments in a jumbled-up group.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: It may not be necessary to move it. The noble Lord may even accept it—
Lord Elton: Not if the noble Lord does not move it.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I do not know whether that was a favourable comment or otherwise. Neither the White Paper nor the amendment Bill makes any proposals as to how the Mental Health Act Commission will be monitored in the way it discharges its various responsibilities in relation to individual matters, such as deciding to override a patient's refusal to consent to treatment. The independent doctor appointed by the Mental Health Act Commission is under no obligation to listen to the patient's views or to give reasons for his decisions.
In relation to the general policy of the Mental Health Act Commission, there is no obligation to publish annual reports on its operation. It is a source of concern that the Scottish Mental Welfare Commission, on which the Mental Health Act Commission is modelled, has in its 20-year history published only three reports on its work. This has tended to convey the impression of an aloof, insular and impenetrable body—a view strongly expressed by the Scottish Association of Mental Health. The publication of regular annual reports would, undoubtedly, make the commission more accountable, by enabling regular parliamentary debate on its work.
This is where my amendment comes in, because the difference between Amendments Nos. 99 and 101B and my Amendment No. 101 is that my amendment specifies that the commission's annual report shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament, thus ensuring parliamentary scrutiny and debate. Through this Bill,

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Parliament will, in the course of time, create the commission and it is essential that Parliament monitors its work. It is a new development so far as England is concerned. Not only that—if I may go a little further and put it in this way—if we debate the report of the commission, the Cinderella of the National Health Service will then tend to get more consideration than it has had hitherto.
One point about the mental health side of the National Health Service—I shall be blunt, since there is no point of disagreement—is that there has been a tendency to disregard it. This amendment safeguards the position and gives an opportunity to Parliament, which will create it, to check the commission. If I may refer to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, about termination after five years, if necessary, that is always within the power of Parliament and the Government of the day, provided that the commission presents its report and Parliament approves or disapproves. After the creation of the commission, such reports could reveal assets. They could also produce evidence of liabilities and discrepancies which ought to be remedied. Therefore, I submit that Parliament, which will create this commission, should have the opportunity to scrutinise the work of the commission.
3.31 p.m.
Lord Winstanley: At this stage it might be for the convenience of your Lordships' Committee if I spoke to Amendment No. 101B, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Robson of Kidding-ton, since this amendment deals with precisely the same point though somewhat differently. It perhaps would be sensible if I said something about this amendment before we discuss all three. In doing so, may I say straight away that I very much share the anxieties already expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, with regard to the establishment of this new layer of bureaucracy—we do not yet know how thick—within the National Health Service, which already has plenty of layers of bureaucracy. To my noble friend and I it seems a little curious that a Government wedded to weeding out Quangos should now appear to be so ready to establish a new Quango in this field. But let us leave that for the moment.
My noble friend and I would have preferred, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will already understand from what we said on earlier amendments, Amendment No. 38 in particular, a widening of the powers and the composition of the mental health review tribunals, which are multi-disciplinary and to which patients themselves have direct access, rather than this new commission. It seems to us that one of the difficulties about the commission is that it will be there merely to exercise a roving commission overlooking the working of the mental health services without the specific patient having specific access to it. Therefore I do not think that the commission itself will necessarily be a very great safeguard. But the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
If we are to have the commission, then we must know on a regular and continuing basis precisely what it is doing and what it is achieving. These three amendments seek to achieve precisely that. They seek to
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make quite certain that there are reports—available for inspection, one would hope—which can be looked at so that we can judge the effectiveness or otherwise of this newly established, if it is established, commission. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, prefers that the commission should publish an annual report which should be laid before both Houses of Parliament. I have no objection whatsoever to that, but for some years in another place I had experience of serving on a Select Committee dealing with the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. The Parliamentary Commissioner has the duty of reporting to Parliament, and noble Lords will know that he repeatedly reports to Parliament: but during those four years when I served on that Select Committee in the other place, none of those reports was ever debated. Therefore, merely to state that something is to be laid before Parliament does not necessarily expose these things to the light of day in the way which I would prefer. That is why we would prefer our amendment, which requires that an annual report should be published. If it is published, there will be sufficient people interested in the subject to make absolutely certain that its contents will be adequately ventilated in one way or another, whether inside or outside Parliament.
I support the noble Baroness. I also support the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany. This is an important point. I would expect the noble Lord the Minister to agree that there should be some kind of regular report on the activities of the newly established commission if that commission is, in fact, ultimately established.
Baroness Faithfull: I agree also with Amendments Nos. 101 and 101B, for the reasons which the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, gave: that reports are not always taken notice of, even if they are supposed to be discussed in both Houses of Parliament. It is for that reason that I believe that Amendment No. 101A whereby, by law, the work of the commission would have to be reviewed in five years' time, would be a profitable amendment not only from the point of view of the commission but also from the point of view of the other layers of the bureaucracy. Managerially, do we really want all these layers? We may need them now, but will we need them in five years' time if the commission has done its job well? Therefore I support Amendment No. 101 and also Amendment No. 101B; but I also like my amendment: that the work and role of the commission should be reviewed and reassessed and, if necessary, terminated five years after the commencement date.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: I agree with bits of all three amendments, for the reason that this will put the case across to the public. If reports are made annually to both Houses of Parliament, which is what I should like, then the public will know, far more than they do now, what goes on in the mental health hospitals. I have considerable experience of this. The mental health aspect is surely the Cinderella of the whole of the National Health Service. Very often it is, I am afraid, a fact of which people do not want to know. If annual reports were published and, one would hope, discussed by both Houses of Parliament, then the public would

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have far wider knowledge of what goes on in our mental health hospitals. This is why I support bits, or probably all, of all three amendments.
Baroness Jeger: I am very glad to follow the noble Baroness, because in this area, which is very sensitive so far as public opinion is concerned, the more discussion and the more public examination there can be, the better. I would crave your Lordships' indulgence by giving one or two examples of why I think it is so important that there should be open discussion of these cases. Recently a very distressed lady came to me for help. She had been told that it was the Government's policy to get people out of mental hospitals and that her husband was being sent home the following week. This lady was elderly and disabled. She was already caring for a mentally handicapped daughter at home. Her husband was sent back home, presumably into what we call community care. This lady came to me and said, "Tell them up there"—I am sorry if that is a discourteous description of your Lordships—"that the community does not care. I'm the bloody community". She felt such a sense of inadequacy, isolation and strain that I am sorry to say this lady died, absolutely broken down, just before Christmas.
The husband is now back in the mental hospital which he never wanted to leave because he had been there so long; it was an environment which he understood. He deteriorated terribly at home. This point is relevant to the amendment. I implore your Lordships to keep in contact with what is actually happening to individual people. This Bill is about people. It is very easy for us to pass this legislation but not to realise the impact which it will have on families and individuals. It is not always the best thing to—
Lord Elton: If the noble Baroness would forgive me, this Bill is about detained patients. The noble Baroness's description of what happened to her, sadly, late friend does not sound to me as if it concerned a detained patient. It sounds to me as if he was a voluntary patient. I may be wrong, but I am anxious that we should not extend the area of discussion and draw into this debate considerations which are not germane to it.
Baroness Jeger: I much appreciate the courtesy of the Minister; I was using that case to illustrate the need for reports to Parliament of what is happening, because unless we keep a close eye on the results of this legislation, we shall be failing in our duty. The relevance of my remarks was that the amendments suggest that there should be reports to Parliament and I very much want to see this amendment carried through. Whichever amendment we take, it is absolutely essential that we monitor this Bill and do not let it get into the public's mind that it is Government policy to send people out without ensuring that there is support. In monitoring it, we ought to ensure that the support is adequate, because we know that in these restrained times for local authorities, it is not always possible for them to provide services.
Moreover, I hope that when the Mental Health Act Commission is set up and is considering discharges it will take careful account of the facilities available to patients whom it is discharging. Certainly I am sure
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that it would not be your Lordships' wish that there should be wholesale discharges on the grounds of economy. We have done a lot of work in Camden; in Camden there is a very good scheme for fostering discharged mental patients and that is the sort of scheme which the commission should take account of in its reports. We have found that the cost of caring for a mentally handicapped adult in hospital is about £147 a week and outside, in a residential home with support, the cost is £157 a week. All these are matters which the Mental Health Commission should report to Parliament. I will not go into other aspects of the case but these are all reasons why, if we are to be responsible and to monitor the progress of the Bill, we should have an annual report before us, covering some of the points which I have suggested.
Lord Auckland: I am not at all happy about Clause 42 as a whole. Certainly I have not had the recent experience of being concerned with mental hospitals that many of my noble friends and other noble Lords on all sides of the Committee have spoken of in the past few moments. However, I wonder whether I might ask my noble friend what consultation there has been with the mental hospitals themselves and with the area health authorities about the setting up of this commission? As my noble friend Lady Faithfull said, there is no reference in the White Paper to this commission. I wonder whether the area health authorities are not the right people to deal with these cases. If we set up this commission, it is going to cost a fairly substantial amount of money. These people, as it states in Clause 42, will have to be paid, and I make no complaint about that, because it seems to me that they are going to carry a very large burden of work.
I must make this point to the Committee. This surely bears out the criticism that was made when all the house committees and other bodies were abolished, when there was much closer contact with both the staff and the patients at these establishments. It is no good crying over spilt milk; all this was done and I suggest to the Committee that we are now, if I may put it a little cynically, paying the penalty for it. I wonder whether my noble friend could say just a few words about the commission generally, why there have been no consultations with the authorities themselves, if in fact there have not been, and a little more about how Clause 42 will work. I have a feeling that many people are worried about this situation.
Lord Winstanley: I listened very carefully to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and since there may well be many other members of the Committee who hold a similar view in regard to the establishment of the commission, would it not be wiser for us to discuss that matter and to extract answers on that subject when we come to discuss whether Clause 42 shall stand part of the Bill, rather than on these particular amendments, which seek to establish that if we are to have a commission at least we should have one whose work is public and is under public scrutiny?
Lord Sandys: This might be the right juncture at which to comment on the three amendments; that is, Amendments Nos. 99, 101 and 101B. The noble

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Baroness took the opportunity of speaking to Amendment No. 101A as well, but I will not be speaking to that particular amendment now. I agree with much of what has been said in favour of the commission publishing regular reports, but I am not convinced that there should be a statutory requirement written into the Bill to report every year. Annual reports take a good deal of preparation. We want the commission's secretariat to be small and we want its members to use their time as effectively as possible. It might not be the best use of their time to spend a considerable period of each year drafting or redrafting a report. I would rather leave it to the commission themselves to decide what to publish and when. If my noble friend will agree to withdraw Amendment No. 99, I will consider putting down at Report stage an amendment to provide for reports, say, every three years. I hope that noble Lords who have proposed amendments—and, of course, this amendment is linked with Amendments Nos. 101 and 101B—will find this reply satisfactory.
I am really cast at this Dispatch Box in the role of Paris without an apple. It is a situation which makes particular demands because there are a number of questions which my noble friend and noble Lords opposite have asked. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, suggested that there should be a report to Parliament; and the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, reminded us of what was in his view a parallel situation, that reports to Parliament are not always debated, or should I say that parliamentary time is not always available for debating them. There are a number of other points which I would like to have the opportunity of discussing, especially the matters raised by my noble friend Lord Auckland.
There is a real need for consideration of this point about reports. At this stage we do not feel that an annual report is the right answer, but we will certainly give the matter consideration. The suggestion of my noble friend Lord Auckland that there was lack of consultation is not, I believe, entirely the case. Health authorities have been in a consultative situation, as I understand it. The health authorities could not fulfil the particular role which he suggested. As the Committee will appreciate, the health authorities detain patients and a separate independent body is needed to protect their rights.
We ought to consider a number of other matters here. One of them is contained in the overall position of the clause as a whole. I hope my noble friends have had an opportunity to read the notes on clauses, because the notes on this clause, Clause 42, describe the position generally. There is a note on page 173 in regard to functions, and I think it is reflected in other parts of this quite lengthy description. I quote the words here in regard to special hospitals, something mentioned by my noble friend Lady Faithfull:
"It would be for the commission to decide, subject to any directions from the Secretary of State, how to carry out its functions under Clause 41".
As drafted, the Bill is silent on a number of matters. My noble friends wish to spell it out rather more clearly than at this stage the Government feel either necessary or desirable. We believe that a report may be considered, and I hope with that my noble friend Lady Faithfull may feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Faithfull: I shall certainly withdraw Amendment No. 99 because I think that Amendments Nos. 101 and 101B are better amendments than the amendment I put down. I understood my noble friend the Minister to say that he may consider a report every other year. What I would say is that, whatever happens, we must have a report because if the work of the commission is not monitored none of us will know where we are. With those comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.48 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Coslany Lord Wallace of Coslany moved Amendment No. 100:
Page 30, line 40, at end insert—
("() In pursuance of subsection (1) above the Mental Health Act Commission shall have regard to the interests of informal patients.").
The noble Lord said: I take it that we shall come on to the other amendments later. At the moment I beg leave to move Amendment No.100, page 30, line 40; insert the words printed. The Mental Health Act Commission will exist to exercise general protective functions for detained patients, ensure that patients are informed of their rights, examine the lawfulness of detention and investigate complaints. Concern has been expressed from a number of sources, including MIND, about remit, membership, and procedures and powers of the Mental Health Act Commission. Although the principle behind the commission is sound, experience in Scotland has shown that the Mental Welfare Commission, the Scottish counterpart, has not established itself as a credible and coherent watchdog for and on behalf of mentally disordered people. Further, the Scottish Mental Welfare Commission has powers more extensive than those proposed for this Mental Health Act Commission, not only for detained patients but also for informal patients and for people deemed to be vulnerable in the community. All patients in hospital are deprived of, for example, the normal social relationships and control over many decisions affecting their lives. In many respects, deprivation is shared equally by all patients, whether detained or not. The informal patients, therefore, have just as great need for an effective watchdog to investigate complaints and to ensure that they are informed of their rights. They will also benefit from the responsibility to visit hospitals proposed for the commission.
The only obvious reason I can imagine for not extending the role of the commission in this way is to save money. I hope that that is not the case. Surely deprivation, so well documented in successive hospital inquiry reports, should justify the additional cost. By making the commission's powers applicable to all patients, a major step could be taken in extending the protective function of the legislation. I would add that the amendment has the full support of the Royal College of Psychiatry. I hope that the Government will also accept and support it. I beg to move.
Lord Winstanley: I should like to add a brief word of support for this amendment. I do understand that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will perhaps be reluctant to widen the activities of the commission

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to cover informal patients as well as detained patients. He has already explained that in other debates in the course of this Committee stage. But I think that there are reasons which should be borne in mind. It has been my personal practical experience in going from time to time to mental hospitals to talk to patients as a general practitioner, not as one of the doctors in the mental hospital, that the patients have not a clue as to how they actually got there. The patients do not sit in a group discriminating as between detained and voluntary patients—"I am voluntary and you are detained". They are just a group of patients. When patients—not necessarily the patients I have gone to see—have recognised me and known who I was and come to seek my advice, and I have asked, "Are you here under Section 25 or Section 26?", they have not a clue whether they are there under any section at all or how they got there.
I am not saying that it should be necessary all the time to go to patients and explain these matters utterly clearly, but I am saying that there is a certain danger in this ready acceptance of the fact that detained patients are in a category totally separate from the others and should be treated totally differently. It is my experience that the uncertainties, fears and anxieties of informal patients are often just as great, and they are in just as much need of reassurance and perhaps protection as the detained patients. Therefore, I have much sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in regard to this amendment.
Lord Elton: The Bill proposes that the Mental Health Act Commission shall be concerned only with detained patients. I am well aware of the phenomenon to which the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, referred, whereby people in mental hospitals are not very clear about their legal status. Our concern in this Bill relates to the Mental Health Act 1959, and that is why the commission is called the Mental Health Act Commission, and we propose specific functions for it. Its main functions will be to deal, first, with consent to treatment—which is a matter which has exercised your Lordships greatly. I think the debate suggested that there should be a watchdog, and that is the function of the commission. Then there is the preparation of a code of practice covering treatment for detained patients, and again the same applies—your Lordships wanted it closely considered and were concerned to introduce a multidisciplinary element into the second opinion. That is a function which is allocated to this body because it is a multidisciplinary panel. There is also the monitoring of the use of powers of detention and generally acting as a watchdog for detained patients. Detained patients need this extra safeguard because they are in a special position; they are not free to leave the hospital when they wish, as other patients are. It is that special factor, deprivation of liberty, which justifies establishing a new body which will have particular experience and expertise in the problems which arise from detention.
Informal patients in psychiatric hospitals and elsewhere—that is to say, voluntary patients—already benefit from the work of a large number of bodies and individuals, such as the Health Service Commissioner, the Health Advisory Service, the Development Team for the Mentally Handicapped, the Court of Protection
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and community health councils. Detained patients are also served by these bodies, it is true, but none of them has a particular expertise in the problems which arise from detention itself. That is the gap which the Mental Health Act Commission is designed to fill.
Other problems which hospital patients have, individually or collectively, are the responsibility of one or other of the existing bodies to which I have referred, and I am satisfied that the existing provisions are appropriate to them. I am not saying that there are no problems about standards of care and provision in mental hospitals or that patients never have individual difficulties which need outside help. What I am saying is that there are already bodies whose job it is to raise standards and help patients. The way forward in this field is to support those bodies and not to add responsibility for informal patients to a body which is designed for different purposes.
The commission will in any case already have its hands full. We have estimated—and my noble friend Lady Faithfull showed an interest in this earlier which I did not satisfy—that members of the commission will be able to make a fairly brief visit twice a year to each hospital where patients are detained, that is, if 70 members each spend about a day and a half a week on commission work. If the commission has to take time enough to "have regard to" all mentally ill and mentally handicapped patients then I point out that there are 20 times as many as those who are detained, and that by mathematical analogy requires a panel of no fewer than 1,400 members; and I cast that before the feet of noble Lords who were protesting earlier about the creation of numerous Quangos. It would be a multitudinous body, very expensive to run, with its expertise diffuse, and I do not think it is what your Lordships have in mind at all.
There is, of course, a resource aspect to this matter, but I do not want to make too much of that. What I am most concerned with is that by giving the commission too much to do and responsibility for too many patients, its effectiveness inevitably will be reduced. Detained patients have special problems and the commission is to be set up and staffed to meet those special problems. That is not to say that informal patients will not be able to benefit from the work of the commission in providing a forum for discussing methods of treatment and raising standards of practice. But I think that what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is now proposing will, in fact, not extend the powers and the effect of the commission, but will dilute it, and I ask your Lordships to resist the amendment.
Lord Winstanley: I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Elton, whether he can answer one specific question in the light of what he has just said to your Lordships' Committee. If the Bill is to be left as it now is without this particular amendment so that we do not have a provision that requires the commission to have regard to the interests of informal patients, and if the commission continues to work in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has described, then I should like to ask the following. If in the course of their review of the practices in a certain hospital, or of certain cases or of certain situations, matters to do with the interests of informal patients arise which cause them concern, would it be within the powers of the commission to

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report those matters to the area health authority or to the Minister or to whoever could perhaps take action, or would that be regarded as ultra vires?
Lord Elton: I do not think I can answer that question off-the-cuff. My instinctive response is that if they saw malpractices they would not remain quiet about them. But usually in legislation there are other considerations which are not immediately apparent. I would not want to commit the Government to a line, but I shall try to write to the noble Lord before the next stage of the Bill.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I am very disappointed with the noble Lord because, after all, let us face it, the amendment is only asking—I know that I went into a great amount of detail—for the commission to have regard to the interests of informal patients. As has already been indicated, it is quite possible that in the course of their duties that will happen, if only accidentally. I see no harm in the Government accepting this amendment, because it does not commit the commission in any shape or form so far as detail is concerned: they should have some regard to the interests of informal patients—that is all.
Lord Elton: I think that the noble Lord is perhaps not quite getting the message that I am trying to give him. Plainly it will not be the purpose of the commission to ignore the interests of anybody, but their responsibility is going to be to detained patients. That responsibility has to be closely delineated, otherwise they will either become swamped with work, or so numerous as to be almost uncountable. Neither of those alternatives is acceptable. If the noble Lord is merely saying that he would like to table an amendment which says that the commission should not disregard the interests of informal patients, I should have thought that that was almost superfluous because I would not think that anyone would expect them to do so. If the noble Lord wishes me to assure him in that respect I would be happy to do so.
I cannot be specific about the assurance which the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, wanted, because he wanted me to say that there would be a specific reaction in specific cases where the people involved were informal patients and not formal patients. On that matter I would have to take advice. But we are not trying to carve out a separate empire for detained patients who, as the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, has said, are already freely intermingled with the others.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: The noble Lord has given me a bright idea. He has made a suggestion to me and I certainly would not ignore any suggestion that the noble Lord makes. I am quite willing, in view of what he has said, to put down an amendment that the Mental Health Commission shall not disregard the interests of informal patients.
Lord Elton: I may be able to make even that superfluous, because I have taken advice more quickly than I thought it was possible to do. It would be entirely proper and expected that the commission would bring cases of improper practice affecting informal patients to
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the hospital managers. I think that that is probably what both noble Lords want, in which case perhaps we do not need either amendment.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: Will the noble Lord put in an amendment to cover that, because it is not laid down? I am playing safe on this. It is not laid down. Naturally I accept the noble Lord's word, but it does not say so in the Bill.
Lord Elton: There is a limit to the amount of detail that you can go to. We could legislate that they should all be well-disposed to the mentally ill generally. I think that there is not a difficulty here. If I find between now and Report stage that there is a difficulty, I shall both get in touch with the noble Lord and suggest what we should do about it. But I think we can assume that where the processes allow it, and where the instituting authority—who are the Government—expect it, the members of this commission will do it.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: After that, I am speechless. Under the circumstances, and in view of the somewhat guarded indication that I might get an amendment from the Government at the Report stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.8 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Coslany Lord Wallace of Coslany moved Amendment No. 101:
Page 30, line 40, at end insert—
("() The Mental Health Act Commission shall publish an Annual Report which the Secretary of State shall lay before both Houses of Parliament.").
The noble Lord said: I am not at all happy about the way in which this matter was dealt with. The noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, rather poured cold water on my suggestion that the annual reports be laid before Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, must remember that Parliament has altered since his day. They have now set up in another place—I do not want to praise it too much but they deserve a little praise occasionally—special Select Committees which go into matters in great detail. Of course, we have our committees but they deal mainly with EEC affairs. After all, when a report is tabled before Parliament nobody is incapable of raising a debate. We have ample opportunity, for instance, in this House by means of short debates, Unstarred Questions, and so on. Also there are the usual channels, who sometimes operate to the benefit of Back-Benchers in getting debates that BackBenchers want. So it is absolutely ridiculous to write off laying something before Parliament simply because somebody thinks that there will not be any chance of a debate. There is every chance of a debate.
However, I must admit that the noble Lord has a point. I am asking for an annual report but obviously nobody, including myself, would expect the commission to put down a report after its first year's work. After all, that first year will be spent mainly organising and sorting matters out before they really get down to the job. So the second year would possibly be the best year. There is point in having a report submitted after

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or during the third year and then subsequently. However, if that is the Government's idea, I would accept it, but I must insist that the words,
"the reports be laid before Parliament".
should be inserted. If that is acceptable to the noble Lord, I would willingly table a differently phrased amendment on Report to cover the point. But I am very seriously concerned that Parliament should have an opportunity to debate and to study the operation of this commission because, as has been stated in many quarters in this House and outside, the Cinderella of the Health Service—the mental health service—should have better treatment than it has received in our considerations. So I leave the matter with the noble Lord. If he will meet me on this point, I shall withdraw the amendment.
Lord Winstanley: As I have already made clear at an earlier stage, I support the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, on this amendment just as I support my own amendment, the later one, Amendment No. 101B. We have had an answer, albeit a somewhat qualified answer, from the noble Lord, Lord Sandys. The answer we had from the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, did not wholly satisfy me, but at least it made it clear that the Government will move some way in the direction which has been indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, by myself and by the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull.
I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by us pressing these matters to Divisions at the moment. Therefore, as I shall not be able to speak to my amendment if I do not move it, and as I have no intention of moving it, may I merely say to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that I am certainly with him in making sure that we get some kind of satisfactory provision in this Bill before it finally leaves our House. However, for the moment I am prepared to leave matters with the answer which we had earlier, and will then have a good look at what is brought forward on Report and perhaps at that time we might try to improve that.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: Although the Mental Health Act Commission is very important, the operation of Parliament and its work is perhaps even more important. If there can be found a formula which does not interfere with the point I make, all well and good; but to put an obligation in such a mandatory form as this, that it must be a report—whether annually or biennially—may well mean that we shall be overloading the parliamentary machine in a way which really will be dangerous. There are innumerable ways in which Parliament can service any of these matters; for instance, Adjournment Debates, Question Time, the Consolidated Fund. If there is a real weakness or something that Parliament ought to supervise and deal with, there are innumerable ways in which it can be done. But if we write into a Bill that there must be an annual or biennial report, that must be fulfilled, and that will mean extra staff, extra time and extra concentration upon theory instead of the time being devoted to the practical problems that arise.
If some formula that is acceptable to both sides can be arrived at which will not bring the danger to which I refer, all well and good; but I would examine it very carefully, because I believe that Parliament is
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being overburdened with detail in such a way that it is not carrying out its duty on fundamental issues because of time being taken up by what, at the end of the day, in relative terms, are rather more minor matters.
Lord Sandys: I am very much obliged to my noble friend for what he has just said because he has spelt out in greater detail what is at the back of the Government's mind: that there are factors in the production of an annual report which go beyond what perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in his amendment has previously imagined. We shall have a look at this and consider it. I hope that noble Lords will table amendments, and that my noble friend Lady Faithfull will consider with us this particular aspect.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: We are reaching a very reasonable negotiating position, if I may put it that way. Quite honestly, I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley. Throughout this Bill we have had only one Division, which was rather unfortunate as some Members could not be present. But, as far as possible, I am not anxious to have Divisions on this measure because in general principle it is an acceptable measure all the way round. If we can negotiate on points of detail, I am quite willing to do so. In view of what has been said—and I hope that as a result I shall be looked at in a kind light—I shall withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Faithfull Baroness Faithfull moved Amendment No. 101A:
Page 30, line 40, at end insert—
("() The work and role of the Commission is to be reviewed and reassessed and if necessary terminated five years after the commencement date.").
The noble Baroness said: As a result of listening to the debate so far, I think that all the more should I move this amendment. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, who said that we have not had legislation in the mental health field for 23 years and that it might well be another 23 years before we have legislation again. That is one point. Secondly, we have been going backwards and forwards on whether there should be an annual, a biennial or a triennial report, or whether there should be a report at all. My noble friend Lord Harmar-Nicholls has spoken about the great work and the amount of work there is for Parliament to do. It seems to me that to have a certain specific point of review—whether it be five, six or seven years—at least concentrates the mind and would ensure that however busy Parliament is, either in the other place or in this House, there will have to be a review. Therefore, I beg to move:
Page 30, line 40, at end insert—
("() The work and role of the Commission is to be reviewed and reassessed and if necessary terminated five years after the commencement date.").
Baroness Macleod of Borve: I wonder whether the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, can help us. It does not seem to me that we can review something upon which we do not have a report. We must have reports. I do not think that my noble friend Lord Harmar-Nicholls was in the Chamber when we had a long discussion on this, and I think we all came to the conclusion that a report must be forthcoming.

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It is vitally important. All Members of this Committee have been members of organisations which have been set up by Parliament, and certainly in anything with which I have been concerned we have had to report annually. It was not a very great deal of trouble and I cannot envisage that this will be more difficult than anything else. Even if it is, we are discussing people who are detained—human beings. We are not discussing energy or anything else with which I have had to deal. In this context, I think that we must have annual reports, and then I would support my noble friend's idea of a review in five years or any other term. But, first, we must certainly decide to have reports, and I would prefer them to be annual reports.
Lord Renton: When we come to the debate on clause stand part I shall make a fundamental criticism of subsection (2) of this clause. But if the Secretary of State is to be allowed to pass the buck to this new Quango to the extent that subsection (2) envisages, then I think it is extraordinary that the Quango should be allowed to get away without ever having to report to Parliament.
Lord Elton: Perhaps I can clear one difficulty out of the way at the start. My noble friend Lady Faith-full said that we had been arguing backwards and forwards as to whether there should be a report every two, three or five years, or whether there should be a report at all. I can assure her that we are taking away a clear indication that the Committee wants there to be a report. We are discussing how that report should be presented, to whom and how often, and that is something which I think we shall review more effectively in the light of what my noble friend Lord Renton will say, if I anticipate him correctly, on clause stand part.
Therefore, let us not confuse that issue with the issue as to whether this body—to which my noble friend Lord Renton rather pejoratively referred as a Quango, although it is only a Quango of 70 and not of 1,400 (as some noble Lords opposite thought it ought to be a moment or two ago)—should go on at all. There is a very good maxim, which my noble friend will know where to find as well as I do, that when you set your hand to the plough, you should not look behind you. I do not think that we should be appointing the commission and saying, "Well you do your best, and we will see whether we will reappoint you after three years, five years or seven years".
Neither do I think that we should let them believe that their functions will not be reviewed. Indeed, the department will be reviewing them, and I can assure my noble friends and others that it will not be waiting five years before it does so, because there may well be lessons to be learned—I should be very surprised if there were not—in the first year or two. As the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, the first year is a sort of bedding-down period, and one should perhaps not expect 100 per cent. efficiency then, but thereafter there will be a lot to be learned and I hope we shall profit from it.
I do not know that there is much more that I can say. The basis of my argument is that I do not agree
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with my noble friend that the thing should be wound up after perhaps five years. I think that the functions of the commission are necessary. We would not have invented it otherwise. I think that they are not the sort of functions which can be completed, as the amendment suggests, and then put for ever on the shelf, nicely wrapped and dusted occasionally. The people who performed these functions cannot be disbanded because they are supervising, are they not, a continuing process?
There will, I regret to tell your Lordships, be a constant flow of these tragic cases into the hospitals, and we should like to think that there will also be a flow of these cases out of the hospitals. As noble Lords have already said, this is something of such importance to the individual citizen—since it concerns his own liberty—that there ought to be a watchdog. It is not, with the greatest of respect to my noble friend Lord Renton, something which my right honourable friend can do single-handed. He has to delegate this responsibility to somebody. I think we have chosen the right people, and we ought to let them get on with the job in the security of the knowledge that we expect them to go on doing it and go on doing it better year by year.
Baroness Faithfull: I thank my noble friend the Minister for that explanation, while being somewhat disappointed with it. I would just make two points. First, I think that my noble friend said that the Ministry, the Department of Health and Social Security, would be constantly reviewing the work of the commission. I am tempted to ask my noble friend what has been happening all these years? The hospital service and the Department of Health and Social Security have been constantly reviewing over all these years. And what are we discussing? We are discussing bad incidents in various hospitals over the years. We have had the other place and your Lordships' House, and still we have had difficulties in our hospitals. Just to say that we shall be keeping matters under review, I am not sure really answers the point.
The second point I should make is that I have used the words:
"The work and role of the Commission is to be reviewed and reassessed".
Perhaps I have worded it badly. It is not only the role of the commission that should be reviewed and reassessed. It should be looked at in terms of the managerial structure of all the other reviewing bodies—the management, the hospital service, the tribunals, et cetera. It is a question of having a reappraisal of the whole management structure. It is for that reason that I felt that we needed to have a specific term when we looked at the work of the commission and the various other bodies within the health service. I shall not press this amendment. I shall withdraw the amendment at this point in time and consider it again at Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 101B not moved.]
On Question, Whether Clause 42 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.24 p.m.
Baroness Robson of Kiddington: I think that this is the appropriate moment to return to the reservations that a great number of your Lordships' Committee have about the necessity for setting up the commission. If anybody from outside had listened to the debate that has just taken place on the various amendments proposed by different members of the Committee, they would come to the conclusion that there are great dangers in creating more bodies than are necessary to perform these functions. I think we all agree with the functions that the proposed commission is supposed to perform, but you need only to have listened to the debate to find that it is a fine balance between who has the authority to do this, and who has the authority to do that. Even the Minister had to think for more than a minute, and take advice, on whether the commission had power to deal with problems it discovered relating to informal patients.
On Second Reading, together with many other Members of the House, I suggested that the functions at present envisaged for the commission could between them be performed by the Health Advisory Service and the mental health review tribunals. This helpful Paper that the Government let us have says about the proposed functions of the commission that the function is visiting patients, monitoring the use of powers of detention and the consent of treatment procedures. The HAS has a function, which is to examine the services of a hospital that are the subject of serious allegations or an unusual volume of complaints, and to advise on deficiencies.
I know that the HAS deals mainly in the mental health field with informal patients. I do not see why its powers should not be extended and the terms of reference altered so that it can take on the extra responsibility of the formal and detained patient. When the Hospital Advisory Service started in 1970 it started working with permanent teams to visit the hospitals. Once it changed its name in 1976 and became a health advisory service, on the whole it set up ad hoc teams to visit the hospitals, and, on the whole, teams have not visited more than three.
I think that was a pity. I believe that the permanent team was a better solution. But what I welcomed in the change in 1976 was that it became mandatory for the Social Services Department to be included, and this adds to the multidisciplinary strength of the HAS. I am also aware that it is at present run, by a director with professional advisers; but there is no reason why, instead of setting up an extra body, the constitution of the top of the HAS. should not be turned into a governing committee, or a special health authority, in order to give it statutory powers. I believe that that would be a better way of dealing with the problem.
I also believe that an organisation which has been working and working very well, for a great number of years—over 12 years now—must have within it a rich fund of experience, and that should be at the disposal of such a body as is envisaged. They are therefore probably the best qualified people to assist the Secretary of State in laying down a code of practice.
The other matter which is interesting has been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod, and that is the question of issuing annual reports. The noble Baroness said that there are hardly any organisa
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tions which do not issue annual reports. Well, the HAS does, so it already performs that function. It is open to the public to study the HAS reports. I am a great believer, with my noble friends, that the reports of the body, whatever it is—whether it is the HAS or the proposed commission—that is looking after the interests of detained patients, should be made public. It is even more important than with the present HAS reports. Therefore, we already have within the HAS this duty to produce an annual report.
We have the experience among the people who have worked within the HAS to give the kind of service we are looking for. We would not have to multiply the bodies who, basically, are interested in the same subject. It would be better to extend the powers of the HAS, to reorganise its consitution. We would have something which would be more valuable, and have a smaller risk of dissension and disagreement between the various bodies which might have an interest in the same patient. I hope the Minister will be able to give us some hope that those functions could be performed by one body, and, in the light of what he says, we on these Benches will consider how we deal with the subject on Report.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Would the noble Baroness explain what HAS means?
Baroness Robson of Kiddington: It is the Health Advisory Service. It started out as the Hospital Advisory Service.
4.31 p.m.
Lord Renton: I wish to approach this matter from a slightly different angle from that which was deployed by the noble Baroness, Lady Robson. As I indicated earlier, I find great difficulty about parts of subsection (2) of the clause. It says:
" Without prejudice to the generality of his powers under that section"—
meaning Section 11 of the Mental Health Service Act 1977—
"the Secretary of State shall"—
he has no option in the matter—
"direct the Commission to perform on his behalf"—
and then we are told exactly what he has to make them perform on his behalf:
"(a) the function of appointing medical practitioners for the purposes of sections 38 and 39 above".
I wish to make it clear that I do not object to that function being compulsorily delegated, but I believe a serious constitutional difficulty arises over paragraph (b) of subsection (2), because he must direct the commission to perform his functions "under section 41 above", and let us briefly examine what those functions are. Under subsection (1) there is perhaps the most important function placed upon the Secretary of State under this Bill, namely, that it is his duty to,
"keep under review the exercise of the powers conferred by the principal Act and this Act with respect to the detention of patients".
Parliament will be continuously interested in that. The liberty of people is at stake. These are people detained often against their will, and to me it is unthinkable that the Secretary of State should be required by Parliament to delegate that function to a

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new Quango, or whatever else we are to call the new Mental Health Act Commission. It is a good idea for some limited purposes, but that the Secretary of State should be required to delegate that function to that body seems to be constitutionally dubious, to put it mildly.
What is to happen when the Secretary of State is questioned in another place, or his spokesman in this place, about the exercise of the functions described in Clause 41(1)? Is he to say, "I am statutorily required to delegate this function to a commission and I have done so, and I have nothing to add"? Is that to be the constitutional position? If so, I would find it regrettable as well as strange. However, I will not detain your Lordships more on subsection (1) because it is a serious enough proposition, nor will I detain the Committee on Clause 41(2). But when we come to subsection (3) we find:
"The matters in respect of which regulations may be made"—
and they may be made by the Secretary of State, as I understand it—
"under section 6 of the Nursing Homes Act 1975 shall include the keeping of records relating to the detention and treatment of persons detained under the principal Act or this Act in a mental nursing home".
Again, that is something Parliament would expect the Secretary of State to know about and to answer questions about. After all, it is a power to make regulations which is being extended; it is an existing power but it is being extended by this subsection. Is it right that he should delegate that power to this new Quango, and be obliged to do so?
Let us look at his functions under Clause 41(4). There we find that he,
"may make such provision as he may with the approval of the"—
Treasury, because the Treasury comes into this, to,
"determine for the payment of remuneration, allowances, pensions or gratuities to or in respect of persons exercising functions under arrangements made under this section".
Here, public money is at stake, and the Secretary of State should be directly answerable to Parliament for the payment of that public money. Again I say I do not think it is right that that should be delegated to the new commission. For those reasons I hope that between now and report my noble friend will find a better way of doing this. In fact, I hope he will abandon the idea of passing the buck to this new Quango.
I have only one other point to make on Clause 42 standing part, and that is in relation to subsection (4), which is a piece of legislation by reference which might have been avoided or expressed more clearly.
Lord Elton: To ensure that I answer the point my noble friend is making, may I ask him to repeat that part of the subsection to which he is referring?
Lord Renton: I have not quite understood my noble friend. Is he asking me to repeat which part of subsection (4) of Clause 42 I am referring to?
Lord Elton: I was taking another point on board as my noble friend began his last remarks and I am asking for the reference to the point he is now making.
Lord Renton: My last point on Clause 42 is that subsection (4) is a piece of legislation by reference, so it-is a drafting point. Sometimes it is helpful and shortens a Bill to have some legislation by reference, but when that happens, and if there is a point of substance involved, it helps the legislators very much if an explanation is given in the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill, but there is no such explanation here. I hope I am not making heavy weather of this, but for those who have to work it—it might be helpful—especially when the Bill becomes an Act if Clause 42(4) could either be enacted without legislation by reference or if a little more of an explanation were given.
Lord Kilmarnock: The Committee will see that I have a later amendment down to Clause 47 No. 109B, which refers directly back to Clause 42, which we are now discussing. I am not sure whether it would be for the convenience of the Committee, and in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, if I spoke to that now, or perhaps he would prefer first to answer the points that have been put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Renton. I await the Minister's guidance.
Lord Elton: We are debating the clause stand part, and it might be more convenient to the Committee to discuss at the same time amendments that strike later in the Bill. I am quite prepared to be persuaded of that if the noble Lord thinks there is advantage in so doing.
Lord Kilmarnock: Very well; I shall be guided by the noble Lord.
4.40 p.m.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: I do not think that my noble friend Lord Renton was making heavy weather of this matter; there is a point that ought to be born in mind, particularly at this stage. As I tried to make clear in my last intervention, I am interested purely in the machinery of Parliament, not in the actual merits of the Bill relating to the Mental Health Act itself. I do not like Clause 42 for this reason: If left as it is, it will interfere with Parliament doing its work properly. As I said previously when there was a suggestion of an annual report, there is no need for an annual report because it would take up time. I should like to say to my noble friend Lady Macleod of Borve, that annual reports sometimes cover up information rather than give new information which could be helpful. It is very easy in a report to cover over a point which, if otherwise presented, could be latched upon by Parliament, so gaining much more satisfaction in regard to something that was wrong.
I have not read the legislation in detail in the way that experts on mental health will have done, but I wonder whether it contains any provision to enable the Secretary of State to override the commission. As things stand, he,
"shall direct the Commission to perform on his behalf",
certain important functions, such as have been described by my noble friend. I believe that it would be wrong and dangerous if the Secretary of State did not have power to override the commission. I see the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, an ex-Minister for the Arts in the Chamber, and I am re—

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minded of many experiences where, because power had been delegated to the Arts Council to do various things relating to spending money on the arts, Ministers came to the Box—I am not saying that the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, did on any great number of occasions —and virtually excused a misdemeanour or something that had gone wrong on the basis that power had been given to the Arts Council. It was said that it was the Arts Council which had spent the money. Because that was used as an excuse it was not possible in either House to probe Ministers in detail in a way that I think is healthy and good.
I have vivid memories of the early 'fifties, when I was a Member of another place, when questions could not be asked of Ministers about certain nationalised industries, because all the power had been transferred to those industries. So I am saying that it is a dangerous trend to remove the power from Parliament in this way by giving the extra power to the new commission, however well-intentioned it might be to begin with.
I would say to my noble friend at this stage—and there is plenty of time for him to take into account the points that have been made—that if he can find in the legislation a provision for power to be retained by the Minister and Parliament, so that the Minister can be questioned in Parliament in order that any weaknesses may be overcome, I should feel reasonably relaxed about the situation. But if the Minister does not have power to take back from the commission specific matters which he and Parliament might think are being wrongly handled, that would be dangerous and wrong. So if power is reserved to override the commission where circumstances justify it, I should be more relaxed; but if the power does not exist, heed should be taken of the point made by my noble friend and the noble Baroness opposite regarding the clause.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: This is an interesting and rather intricate point. I think that there should be a difference between delegating function and delegating power. In the case of the Arts Council it was the Government's intention, expressed in an Act, that funds should be handed in bulk to the Arts Council and the distribution of them broken down by the council, keeping the Minister at arm's length from artistic judgment. That is a perfectly sensible arrangement, with which I think most of us would agree.
On the other hand, in this case it seems to me that the Secretary of State is being instructed to delegate a function, and it is an entirely new idea to me that by delegating a function one should be absolved of responsibility for how it is carried out. If the people to whom one delegates a function do not perform it properly, one should have them up and ask, "What's going on? Have you visited these people? The function is that you should".
My view is that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, is placing too much emphasis on this matter, though it is a subtle point and I shall be very interested to hear the Minister's reply. It seems to me that all Ministers delegate functions in this way to their own secretaries and civil servants. I do not think that there should be any difference here, but I shall be interested to hear what is said.
Lord Renton: I hope that the noble Lord will allow me to make the comment that functions include powers in our statute law.
4.46 p.m.
Lord Elton: Well, this has been, and I hope will continue to be, a very interesting debate. Perhaps I should start by saying that we see the commission as being a very important part of the Bill. As many of your Lordships have said, we in this Chamber debate major changes in the law about compulsory detention of mentally disordered people only every 20 years or so. So we are very much aware that, when the opportunity arises, difficult issues are involved, and I am grateful for the sustained and concerned interest that your Lordships have shown in the Bill. I hope that I shall be able to reassure various noble Lords around the Chamber about what actually is within the Bill and what its results will be.
My noble friend Lord Auckland earlier asked what discussion, if any, there had been. I think that he must have looked at the 1978 White Paper and seen that the conclusion it reached was that no such body was needed. Indeed, the decision that such a body was needed was the direct result of consultation. It was the majority opinion of those who commented that such a body was needed, and therefore the Government took that point on board.
The noble Baroness, Lady Robson of Kiddington, suggested that the appropriate body to discharge the functions now intended for the Mental Health Act Commission would be the Health Advisory Service, but that service is concerned only with mental illness hospitals, not with mental handicap hospitals. Representatives of the service visit each hospital only once every five years or so. The development team certainly is concerned with mental handicap hospitals; it has visited most, but not all, of the hospitals so far. But both bodies are concerned with facilities and services, and what we are concerned with here is a different, related but discrete, field of very great importance, as noble Lords have shown by what they have said.
Perhaps I should next turn to what the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has said, and to a disquiet that has been echoed in various parts of the Chamber, and say that I think that the term "delegation" as such does not occur in the Bill, but that in any case the process by which the Secretary of State must give to this body certain of his functions does not relieve him of the responsibility for them. The noble Lord looks surprised, but that is my firm advice. It is certainly not our intention that the Secretary of State should be able to give the kind of answers that Ministers find themselves called to give in reply to questions on the Post Office or any other at-arms-length body, whether or not one calls it a Quango. I hesitate to use the term. This is a health authority under the Act; it is not a Quango. There is no close season for Quangos, but health authorities are still allowed to breed. Therefore, I can reassure the noble Lord on that point.
One of the things he will delegate, I do not doubt, will be, by regulation, the inspection of records. I think the noble Lord was interested in how that would be dealt with. But the duties and powers remain those of the Secretary of State, and therefore, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, I think it was,

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since they are his own he can override what is proposed or done by the commission; and, indeed, I would expect him to be in consultation with them. It will not only be a question of the department carrying out a review—that is the bureaucratic machinery—but I do not doubt he will actually meet and discuss things with them.
I do not want to detain your Lordships for too long. On the other hand, I wonder whether I have said enough about the commission itself. I am perhaps repeating myself from an earlier stage if I say that we intend it to have about 70 members—lawyers, psychiatrists, nurses, social workers, psychologists and laymen. Some of their work will be as a national body of those most knowledgeable about the law, ethics and professional good practice of treating detained patients. They will publish the code of practice required by Clause 39 and revise it from time to time. I hope they will publish other reports—and I am not now referring to the sort of grand report that your Lordships are on all sides counselling the Government to see that they make of all their functions, but reports on particular aspects of their responsibilities and particular areas where improvements are available; and I hope that they will stimulate discussion about detained patients within different professions as well as more widely than that.
Medical treatments and social attitudes change fairly quickly in this field, and that is why I think noble Lords return again and again to the lapse of two decades or a quarter of a century, which appears to be the interval between legislation on the subject, and question whether we should not review things more often. There is a great need, therefore, for a standing body to keep abreast of developments. I think that if your Lordships come to debate this as an Act we shall draw very much on the experience and views of the commission itself.
It will be a forum for continuing debate, but it will also be a working body. Its members, in small regional teams, will visit hospitals to talk to detained patients, to look at records of their detention and treatment, and ensure that good practice is being followed. The experience of their visits will be fed into the code of practice so that guidance can be given on particular problem areas. In the same way the commission's involvement in giving second opinions under Clause 38, which we have already agreed to, will ensure that the code of practice reflects up to date and relevant experience, and will ensure, too, that it is being followed. All the clauses we have been debating about consent to treatment, the code of practice and the general protection of patients are part of the same watchdog function which will be of very great value to staff and will be vital to the safeguarding of patients' interests. I think this body is essential. I hope I have allayed the fears and suspicions of your Lordships on a number of critical points which I recognise as being central to the functions of the commission, and I hope that your Lordships will now allow this clause to stand part of the Bill.
Lord Renton: I am very sorry to detain your Lordships for just a few seconds longer but I think I must try to clear up one point arising from what my noble
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friend Lord Elton said when he said that the Secretary of State will always be answerable in Parliament for everything the Mental Health Commission does. I understand that that is what he is saying. It is described in Clause 42(1) as "a special health authority" under the 1977 Act. Its status constitutionally therefore appears to be the same as that of a regional health authority; and, if my recollection is accurate, Ministers have not always been prepared to answer questions about everything that regional health authorities do. They will answer some general questions, but they will say in relation to other questions, "This is a matter for the regional health authority". Therefore, I must ask the noble Lord, with the aid of the draftsman, to look at this again so as to make quite sure, and so that he can assure your Lordships when this comes back at Report stage, that there is no question of the Minister being able to pass the buck to anybody else.
Lord Elton: I have said what I believe the position to be, and the position I believe to be is the position I wish to be in. If the noble Lord has discovered a defect which means that in fact we are in a different position, I will certainly look at it to see whether his fears are well grounded, and if they are well grounded then of course I will have to consider the matter again. But I hope I have given to the Committee the necessary assurance as to what is the intention of the legislation.
If I could detain your Lordships for one moment more, my noble friend also raised the question about legislation by reference. I will not repeat what is said in the notes on clauses, which the noble Lord has already seen, but I will certainly look at that matter to see whether some form of clarification would be suitable.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43 [Replacement of mental welfare officers by approved social workers]:
4.56 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Coslany Lord Wallace of Coslany moved Amendment No. 102:
Page 31, line 2, after ("as") insert ("qualified").
The noble Lord said: If it is for the convenience of the Committee, with this amendment I should like to deal with Amendments Nos. 103, 104, 105, 106, 108 and 130 to 142, which are consequential amendments. I am sure that has put your Lordships in a good humour; at least, I hope it has. This series of amendments, I must frankly admit, was originally the brainchild of the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod, who was very concerned about the issue.
The Bill's proposals for the approved social worker are welcome, and I have seen the draft guidelines sent out for consultation. These amendments in fact line up with the draft consultation document. Of course, it is not finally approved; but the main point is that there must be a degree of qualification involved. As I said, the Bill's proposals for the proposed social worker are welcome although they are less far-reaching than those in the 1978 White Paper. The vital importance of competent social work care, advice and

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support for mentally ill people is underlined by the extra responsibilities this legislation will place on social workers, particularly in relation to the work of the Mental Health Act Commission—amended powers of guardianship, greater access by patients to mental health review tribunals, et cetera
Groups including the British Association of Social Workers and MIND have often cited evidence of social workers ill-equipped by mental health training, experience or specialist skill being warranted as mental welfare officers to discharge powers including compulsory admission under the 1959 Mental Health Act. The extent to which social workers have generally fulfilled their intended functions as independent advocates under this Act is highly questionable. One of the problems for social workers operating responsibilities under the 1959 Act has been that the extent of their powers and responsibilities are ill-defined, and therefore open to varying interpretation. The social worker's task in working with a mentally ill person and their family is invariably demanding, and requires a complex range of skills.
The British Association of Social Workers summarises the task as follows: (a) to investigate the patient's social situation and to identify in consultation with others involved the extent to which social and environmental pressures have contributed to his observed behaviour; (b) to use his professional skills to help resolve any social relationship or environmental difficulties which have contributed to the crisis and to mobilise community resources appropriately; (c) to be familiar with the legal requirements and to ensure that they are complied with; (d) to form his or her own opinion following an interview with the patient, with those closest to him and with others involved, as to whether compulsory admission is necessary and, having regard to any alternative methods of resolving the crisis, of securing the necessary care and treatment; and finally, to ensure that the care and treatment is offered in the least restrictive conditions possible.
It is obvious that these difficulties place considerable responsibilities on the individual worker to exercise expertise and judgment. This, in turn, demands preparation, comprehensive education and training. It is therefore hoped that the advice given to the Secretary of State on the preparation and training of approved social workers will reflect this. The insertion of the further amendment that the approved social worker should also be a qualified social worker is intended as a further safeguard on the level of training, competence and experience of approved social workers.
It is inconceivable that nurses or doctors without the appropriate professional qualification should be engaged in the treatment of mentally ill people. So, too, if the social work function is to assume that of professional equality, it should be unthinkable that functions under the amended Act should be discharged by untrained staff. At present social workers who operate the Mental Health Act are often not sufficiently conscious of the extraordinary powers it gives them, powers which have no parallel in law and which potentially can deprive the mentally ill person of virtually all safeguards available to those who are not disordered. IT he or she is to be effective, it is vital that he or she possesses the necessary level of training and skill. Without this, the social workers will assert their
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independent, professional assessment in the face of possibly conflicting views from doctors and nurses involved in the patient's care.
When I saw the Bill I was very concerned about the use of the word "approved", as were many other people. I feel that in view of the responsibilities that will be placed on the workers involved there should be adequate training—which, I admit, is outlined to some extent in the draft guidelines which the Minister had the courtesy to send me and with which I do not necessarily disagree. But by putting "qualified" into the Bill we are making certain that there will be some pressure brought to bear to make sure that people are completely and absolutely qualified to do the job. I know that one local authority association has nearly "hit the ceiling" because apparently it wants more money. That is the County Councils Association. I would not regard the County Councils Association as a very progressive body—and there may be arguments about that—but other authorities are only too pleased, as I understand are the AMA, fully to support this amendment.
I know that I have spoken for quite a while on this amendment, which to many people would appear to be quite a small one; but it is not; it is a very important amendment. I hope that the Committee will support it and that the Government will accept it. It does not involve anything very serious as far as alteration of the Bill is concerned. It concerns the insertion of one word, "qualified", which is important; and which, incidentally, raises the status of those people who will be qualified in due course under the Bill. I beg to move.
5.5 p.m.
Lord Wells-Pestell: I think that those of us who are concerned about the value of the contribution which professional social workers make in our society today —and particularly in the setting that we are discussing this afternoon—will realise that it is of supreme importance that lay people who are asked to undertake the responsibilities in this particular field of dealing with mental health must themselves be competent and qualified. On reflection, I think that perhaps the amendments standing in the names of my noble friends and myself do not go far enough. I think that I prefer the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, except that I think that I would want them spelled out a little more carefully and with greater determination.
Clause 43, as it stands, is not, in itself, adequate to meet the situation as many of us see it. It is the replacement of mental welfare workers by approved social workers. The word "approved" means little or nothing. Every social worker is approved by his or her local authority; otherwise he or she would not be there as a social worker. Many of us perhaps think that it implies qualified or trained. But it means nothing more than "approved" and it means that the local authority can give approval to any social worker within its employ.
I raised these matters at Second Reading and I asked the noble Lord, Lord Elton, a number of questions. I want to take this opportunity of saying that on 17th December I put down a Question for Written Answer and that, within a matter of five days, I got a

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very long, detailed and very helpful reply from him. I think perhaps it was the most informative Written Answer that I have ever received. I thank him for it because he went a long way towards getting me to see what was behind the Bill.
Having said that, I want to point out that in the Bill the functions of the social worker are two-fold. One is to seek hospital treatment for a person that needs it; the other is to interview that person. Nowhere in Clause 43 does the word "training" appear. In the noble Lord's letter to me, he said (referring to the two specific responsibilities of the present mental health worker and the person who will become in two years' time the approved social worker) that there is no legal requirement at all when it comes to their particular function involving training. If we look at subsection (3) of Clause 43 we find it says:
"In approving a person for appointment as an approved social worker a local social services authority shall have regard to such matters as the Secretary of State may direct".
As far as I know, the Secretary of State has not said that he will direct that training shall be provided for these people. I have seen the draft guidelines for approval of social workers under the proposed Mental Health (Amendment) Act and the working party draft for consultation which was produced apparently last December. Under paragraph 17 it says:
"The Mental Health (Amendment) Bill, Clause 43, provides that for a period of two years, following the passing of the Act, mental welfare officers may continue to carry out their functions under the Mental Health Act 1959. During these two years, social services authorities must make arrangements for the training and formal approval of a sufficient number of social workers".
That does not appear at all in the Act as I see it. It says that the local authorities shall have regard to anything that the Secretary of State says with regard to training but it is not going to be obligatory on them.
May I repeat that in case the noble Lord did not hear me. They shall have regard; but, as I understand it, having had regard for it, it is not obligatory on them to do it. What we must have is an assurance that the Secretary of State is coming forward with a scheme of training which has been approved by people who are in a position to advise him. The onus, according to the guidelines, is going to be on the local authority social services department to provide training—as I see it and understand it—within their own local authority.
We cannot have a large number of local authorities going off on frolics of their own, arranging training courses which they think arc going to meet the situation. This has to be done by some central body equipped to do this kind of work. I want to ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he will give an assurance that it is the intention of the Home Secretary after careful consideration and consultation with people who are in a position to advise him to produce an approved scheme, and that that approved scheme will be binding on all local authorities.
It is not sufficient to say they shall have regard to this. It means nothing at all. Having done so, they need not accept the advice that has been given. I have not had an opportunity of discussing this with my noble friends on the Opposition Front Bench but it may be that this whole question of training ought to go in a separate clause after Clause 43. I am very much taken
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with the suggested clause which is going to be moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Faithful!. Perhaps we can get what we want into that so that it is all-embracing and comprehensive. The assurance I want is that there will be a training course and that that training course will be binding upon the local authority.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: I am grateful to the noble Lord. It was when I read Lord Wallace's Second Reading speech that I thought that this was absolutely vital, although I had given it some thought myself. The word "approved" is the one that sticks I am afraid, because although one can have, "approved by somebody" or "approved for something", we are not told that it is necessarily approved for this particular purpose. Indeed, as I understand it, the social services, as constituted now, do not have special departments which are staffed by people approved, qualified or trained for any particular part of the social services. This might well work but personally I do not think it works for this particularly very difficult area in psychiatric medicine.
I am in a dilemma this evening because, having read very carefully Amendment No. 109A, I feel this will meet all our difficulties if that is accepted by the Government. I should like to know whether paragraph (h) of the amendment, which says,
"to be trained at an approved mental health training centre"
would give a certificate of training. Perhaps that answers the question which has been recently put. It seems to me that, unless one has a certificate of training, that would make the trainee work as an approved person and that would cover all the ground that some of us are worried about, as certainly I am. For the ordinary, new, 21-year-old people who are in the social services, without the guidance of anybody more senior, there could be terrible difficulties. As I see it, this Bill is putting far more on the social services than has been the case before. It is vitally important that those people who have this responsibility should be trained and qualified.
Baroness Faithfull: I wonder whether it will be helpful to the Committee if I speak on Amendment No. 109A. It is bound up so much with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and the statements made by the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and my noble friend Lady Macleod of Borve.
In speaking to Amendment No. 109A, may I ask the Minister four questions for clarification? Regarding "qualified", a qualified social worker means a certificate from the Central Council for the Education and Training of Social Workers. That is a certificate covering two years of general social work. It is not in particular social work training for mental health. My first question therefore is: are there enough qualified social workers in the country in the local authorities' social services departments to be hived off from the social services departments to train particularly as approved social workers under the Mental Health Act? There are some local authorities which would say that they do not have enough qualified social workers—that is with two years of training—to train further as approved social workers under the Mental Health Act. That is very much tied up with the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace.

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My second question refers to age. Surely in the draft guidelines for the approval of social workers which has been issued by the Minister's department there is nothing about age. I believe that not only should approved social workers under the Mental Health Act be qualified social workers; they should also be of a certain age. I have been called out on many occasions on section cases and in my own department it always worried me when young people were called out at night to section cases. It is not fair on the social worker; it is not fair on the patient, and I dare to suggest that it is not fair on the doctor. Therefore, I ask my noble friend whether his department have given consideration to what age the approved social workers should be.
My third point is on the question of training. The guidelines—and we are grateful to my noble friend the Minister for letting us have them—have outlined the possible guidelines for training. As I understand it, this is in-service training—that is, people train within the departments in which they work. I do not agree with this for two reasons. First, I had to see me last week two psychiatrists whom I greatly admire and respect. What they said to me was, "I never use a social worker unless I absolutely must". I am sure those two psychiatrists should be people who would be lecturing to and training social workers, but if there are various psychiatrists throughout the country who do not want to use social workers, how are they, with integrity and honesty, to train social workers? I think that this is a point to be borne in mind.
I must say that I have some sympathy with the psychiatrists because if they have been working with untrained social workers perhaps they have lost confidence in the profession. That is a pity, because—I have a vested interest in this and I am a social worker—the social work profession has a lot to offer. Therefore, I would ask the Minister whether he is happy that this should be an in-service training course. Surely it would be wise, I think in phase 3, to suggest that the social workers attend a course at an approved mental health training centre. I think I am right in saying—the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will be able to help me on this—that there are five of them in the country. There is one at the Maudsley, and then there are the Universities of Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. I think there is one at Bristol University, although I am not sure, and I am not sure either about Cardiff.
However, if the approved social workers, on top of their general social work training, are to be well trained and have confidence in themselves—confidence to work in partnership with the doctors—they should go on an approved course for at any rate part of the two years, to give them an overall look at the mental health services throughout the country. If they have an in-service training in only one area—the area where they work—they are not going to get a broad view. I should also say that, geographically speaking, in-service training in a very widespread county is not easy when the mental hospital is a long way away. Therefore, I would ask the Minister whether he would not consider sending for part of the time qualified social workers to mental health training centres.
However, I then fall into a terrible difficulty because my next question concerns cost. If there is only to be in-service training, are the local authorities to bear the
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full cost? If so, how are they going to afford to pay for it when they are in great difficulties at the moment from the point of view of local authority expenditure? If, on the other hand, they are going to go to centres who also will pay the cost—and this is a very vital factor and one which must be considered—will the cost be borne jointly by the health service and the social services? If so, the health services, I suspect the noble Baroness, Lady Robson, will say, will not like that either. So where is the money to come from?
I fully support the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, in that it is of absolutely vital importance that the social workers doing this work are generally qualified social workers with in addition the extra two-year training; but I am still worried about how this is to be done and the methods by which it is to be done. I will not read out the amendment because the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and I both had the same duties of social workers except, of course, that in paragraph (h) I did say:
"to be trained at approved mental health training centres".
I would just say that I wrote to the Central Council for the Education and Training of Social Workers for literature on social work training, which they have sent and which is now in the Printed Paper Office. I cannot at this point move Amendment No. 109A but I have spoken to it, and I should be very grateful to have the answers to the questions I have asked of my noble friend the Minister.
Lord Mottistone: I am in something of a difficulty and I should very much like some advice. As I saw it, my amendment No. 107 was a separate issue—certainly regarding the points I wanted to make—from the issues dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, in his great series of amendments. I understand fully why my noble friend Lady Faithfull, in what I thought was a remarkably well-informed contribution, naturally moved from Lord Wallace's subject right across into mine. What I should like to know from my noble friend the Minister is whether, in the interests of the Committee, he would advise me now to say what I have to say or whether he would like me to hold back until he has dealt with the series of amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace.
Lord Elton: I can give only tenuous guidance. It seems to me the issue is a different one but of course it is possible to bring any issue into any speech in this Chamber, and the issues are contiguous. I do not know what the noble Lord has in plan, but probably it would be more helpful if he could take his amendment separately and, if he feels it has not gone in the way he expected when I have replied, perhaps he would then leap to his feet—because there is nothing in our Standing Orders which prevents him from doing that.
Lord Mottistone: I thank my noble friend and I will wait until my turn comes to move my amendment.
Lord Wells-Pestell: Before the noble Lord replies, I wonder whether I might add one more thing. This is not my own thinking but it happens to come from the thinking of the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull. I am reminded of a conversation which she and I had a week

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or so ago. Going back to this whole question of training, if it is going to be done within the framework of the local authority, then many local authorities will not be within 100 miles of a mental hospital. I cannot see how training can be done unless the trainees have some insight into what goes on at the hospital. When the noble Baroness mentioned it to me, it seemed to me to be of supreme importance, in the sense that it makes local training virtually impossible in some areas.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: Is it not a fact that all our vast psychiatric hospitals have catchment areas, which usually include about seven boroughs, certainly within the London groupings? Surely that would make it possible for the seven boroughs to send any representatives to the big hospitals within the catchment area?
Lord Wells-Pestell: I do not think that would apply to places like the Isle of Wight. I do not think there is a mental hospital on the Isle of Wight.
Lord Mottistone: Yes, indeed there is.
Lord Elton: I will do my best to bring the disparate parts of this very interesting discussion to some sort of conclusion. There is actually a greater degree of common ground between us than perhaps some noble Lords may realise. We are all agreed that the functions of the social workers to whom we refer are of very great importance to the community and especially to those people who may be detained as a result of their work. I think we are also at one in wishing social workers to be held in the highest esteem and to be enabled to earn the highest esteem that is possible. So let us, first, try to do a little definition. I apologise if I do not take these points in the order in which they arose. I am taking them either in the order which logic seems to determine, or as chance has ordered my papers. I attempt to follow the former criterion, but I feel it is often the latter which supervenes.
I was asked what we mean by the term "approved". It bears exactly the meaning given to it in the Bill. The point is that an "approved social worker" is described in Clause 43. Subsection (2) reads:
"A local social services authority shall appoint a sufficient number of approved social workers for the purpose"
and so on. Subsection (3) reads:
"In approving a person for appointment as an approved social worker a local social services authority shall have regard to such matters as the Secretary of State may direct".
Your Lordships will realise from that that the Secretary of State will make directions and will expect them to be followed. They will not be cast iron and some noble Lords have suggested that they should be. In our view, there should be a reasonable degree of flexibility and, where an authority departs from what the Secretary of State has directed, it will then have to fustify that departure to the Secretary of State. Otherwise, it will not be seen to be having a proper regard to what he directs.
I am glad that noble Lords have had an opportunity to consider the draft guidelines, in which I have taken a fairly close personal interest, and a good deal of this
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debate has hinged on their contents. The question of qualification is central to most of the debates that we have had so far this afternoon, as to whether a social worker who is to be approved and who, because of the operation of the Bill, must have gone through the process of training, about which we wrote the guidelines, should, first, as a preliminary requirement to embarking on the course, have to be qualified; and my noble friend Lady Faithfull has explained that the qualification is a CCETSW qualification, following a two-year generic training.
I think we are not very far apart because, first, in answer to my noble friend, 70 per cent. of social workers are now qualified and, therefore, I think there is a sufficient reserve. But, secondly, the intention of not requiring a social worker to be qualified before he embarks on this course is not to widen the net because there is a shortage of people, and because we need to have substandard or unsuitable people in order to fill the establishment.
The reason is quite the reverse. If we required this qualification, we should almost certainly be excluding a small number of the most valuable people, by whom I mean those people who have worked for many years in this field, who have a wealth of relevant experience and who have not taken the two-year qualification. We must consider in each case whether or not such a person ought to take the course, but there will be people whose enormously valuable experience and prestige would be lost to the service, if we said in black and white in the Bill that qualification was a necessary preliminary to taking the course.
The next point that comes to my mind arises from the critique of the guidelines themselves, which were issued in December. I hope that I managed to send copies to all those of your Lordships who had then shown an interest in this issue. If there are others who have not received them, I apologise and I shall be happy to supply them. I should say that what we propose is a fairly comprehensive system of training which falls into six separate phases; I think that in a training college it would be called a modular programme. The authority itself will determine which modules or which phases the experience or previous training—because a trained social worker can, and will, take this course—renders superfluous.
The first is a month's placement in a residential or day-care setting, catering for mentally ill people exclusively. The second, in the same phase, is another month in an adult training centre, hospital or hostel for mentally handicapped people. The second phase is one of supervised practical work placement of at least three months in a multi-disciplinary setting, such as a psychiatric hospital or a mental health centre where there is an established social work department and, also, a formally organised teaching programme. That covers only the first two phases. I shall not go into further details unless any noble Lord wants to press me, because I do not want to waste your Lordships' time if you do not want the details.
However, I am absolutely seized of the importance of some kind of cohesion in this programme, and of not having completely separate bodies of practice established in isolated areas of the country. In considering the comments on the guidelines, we shall be very much aware of the points that noble Lords have made about

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centres of excellence—and I could mention others than those which have been mentioned today—and of ways in which it is beneficial for trainees, however senior, to come together and to exchange experience, as well as to share training.
My noble friend Lady Faithfull raised the question of age. I am always a little suspicious of the inflexible. What we are really concerned with is maturity of judgment. But if, on reflection, it appears that some age bar might be appropriate, I would not throw that out of the window at this stage. I do not want to give a commitment, but it is something that I should like to reflect upon. As to the amount of this training which should be in-service, what I have said has indicated that there may be occasions when trainees should go to somewhere which is further from home than taking courses in the evening would make possible. Indeed, there are already local authorities who send their social workers away for residential training now, and it would be particularly valuable for training in the theory of their work.
As to cost, about which I spoke on Second Reading, we regard it as being the case that specialised training for fewer people—the degree of specialism—will, to some extent, counter-balance the number of people who have to be trained where the work is less specialised. For those local authorities who already provide the kind of training which we envisage—and there are some who are already quite close to it—there will, of course, be no resource implications. But I am aware of the unease and I am grateful to my noble friend for again drawing it to my attention.
The point which I really want to make is that we all want to get the best service that we can. Therefore, we all want social workers to be highly trained. I want to see that the regulations, or the guidelines or the Bill do not exclude from that list of people some of the most distinguished, which I fear would be the accidental effect of the amendment which the noble Lord has put down. I believe that in the light of the comments which we receive on the guidelines, and which are being fairly well received at the moment, we shall see our way to setting up a system where the benefits of shared experience in centres of excellence—universities, teaching hospitals and so on—will be incorporated in a genuinely flexible and, therefore, vigorous and innovative service. I hope that the noble Lord will not press an amendment which would accidentally have the effect of inhibiting at least some of that result.
Lord Wells-Pestell: I do not know whether it is convenient for the noble Lord to look at the guidelines, but Section 21, Phase B, on page 9 begins by saying that social workers should undertake a three-month full-time equivalent period of supervised practice and a formally organised teaching practice. It then goes on to say that there will be two components, one of which will be theory and the other practice in a multidisciplinary setting such as a psychiatric hospital or a mental health hospital. That is fine, but does "social worker" there mean anybody who is a social worker—somebody who may not even be, shall I say, a certificated social worker or a qualified social worker? The noble Lord himself said that there are upwards of 30 per cent. of social workers who have no formal
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qualifications. Can he identify the use of the term "social worker"?
Lord Elton: I can make absolutely clear our intention. If the noble Lord is questioning the effect either of the guidelines or of the Bill, that is another matter. Our intention is not to draw into this very important field unqualified teenagers. It is to draw into this field qualified people with experience and unqualified people with great experience. This is not a loophole, as I tried to say before, to dilute the service. It is not the water from the bottom of the bottle that we are after. It is the cream at the top that we are after.
There may be other ways of doing it. I sense your Lordships' unease with what is proposed. But I hope I have made it clear that the reason we have not got the word "qualified" in is not because we wish not to exclude those whom your Lordships are referring to, very politely and in other terms, as substandard, or unsuitable to the work, or too young, but—exactly the other end of the spectrum—because we want to be able to include that small number of people who, in the light of their long experience and the high regard in which they are held by the authority (which will be running the scheme, after all), the authority wants to admit.
It is difficult to see how I can be more specific than this, and it is a little difficult to see how one could be as specific as that in legislation. If I am advised that there is a way in which one could be more specific I should be happy to take it. But what I am not happy to do is just to plonk the word "qualified" down wherever it occurs, or to legislate for specific courses of instruction. Perhaps I have been less than courteous to my noble friend in thanking her for the care which she has given to thinking through the implications of her own philosophy and setting out the programme which she feels ought to be in the Bill. I think that legislation is a little like concrete. I do not like to get into detail in legislation because, as noble Lords constantly remind me—and I am now reminding them—the opportunity to legislate does not come very often. What may appear to be very relevant in response to a situation in 1982 may appear to be less than relevant or appropriate for 1987 or 1990. I think that we are in an area—much as we are in in teaching, in which I spent much of my life training teachers— where we want to combine flexibility with common agreement on the level of excellence to be obtained. I do not propose that we should admit people who are junior, unqualified and inexperienced. I do propose that we should admit people who are senior and experienced but unqualified.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and I thank the Minister, too, for his explanation of his aims and objectives—at least, the department's aims and objectives. On this point concerning the small number of experienced people, I think he spoke about people with 20 years' experience. Or was it the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull? There are people who are qualified by experience, if I can put it that way. That is acceptable and I see not the slightest reason why these people should not be taken care of. They can be taken as qualified by experience, and that would be the end of that. It is the other people whom I have in mind.

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I must refer to the proposed new clause of the noble Baroness. I still feel quite worried that the Government want approved workers, not qualified workers. I want this point to be emphasised, because of the importance of the work that these people will be doing. I do not see why, after consideration, some of the things which are worrying me should not be lined up with the new clause which the noble Baroness has in mind, unless the Government accept it, though in view of what the Minister has said it would surprise me if they did. We could line up a possible amendment at Report which would be quite acceptable, at least to us if not to the Minister.
The noble Baroness referred to workers of a certain age. That made my mind boggle. I thought of mature, middle-aged ladies with the grandmotherly approach. I would not cut out young people. Last night I listened to "Down your Way". Two young people, a girl and a fellow, are curators at Greenwich Naval Museum. And when I was in Lisbon about 12 months ago I met the curator of the Gulbenkian Museum. I thought she was just a little office worker, but this was a completely qualified young girl. So do not rule out young people. I think that "ladies of a certain age" should be deleted. It is a somewhat embarrassing phrase. I make this suggestion, quite a proper one, to the noble Baroness and ask her to think about it. I am still very worried about the Government's proposals concerning approved workers, but I shall not press the amendment in the hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, will come a little way towards me and that we can provide a happy union so far as the amendment is concerned. I beg leave to withdraw it at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 103 to 106 not moved.]
5.48 p.m.
Lord Mottistone Lord Mottistone moved Amendment No. 107:
Page 31, line 11, leave out from ("to") to end of line and insert—
("the training, qualification and experience needed for the discharge of the functions conferred by the principal Act upon such a person.").
The noble Lord said: My amendment is not relevant to the qualification point which my noble friend the Minister knows about. This is a probing amendment and relates to the point which my noble friend Lady Faithfull raised about the cost of these proposals to local authorities. We are not objecting in principle to Clause 43, but we are wondering whether the Government have taken fully into account the costs that will be involved. To me it is significant that in the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Bill there is no mention on page vi of the costs of Clause 43. Under the heading "Financial effects of the Bill", clause 43 must be a cost to the local authority. It was sort of suggested that perhaps the health authority might shoulder some of the load. I would not expect that to happen. But one of the reasons why cost is a problem is because of the tight time-scale. I can well see the reason for the tight time-scale which is written into subsection (1) of two years from the day that the Act is passed. There is
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no question of it being two years after the Minister says so; it is two years after the Act is passed. So there may be situations in which local authorities will have to rush their training—nobody debates that there will need to be training—in order to meet the requirements of this Act quickly, when, in practical terms, experience has shown this to be rather more than is really necessary. One has to get these things into balance. I should have thought that, if there is no give on Clause 43(1), then we want to have rather more reassurance from my noble friend that the possible cost to local authorities of this requirement have been properly gone into and properly discussed with the department concerned, the Department of the Environment, and the Ministers. At this stage I should like my noble friend to comment on those points and I will then return to another detail that I wish to raise.
Lord Sandys: I appreciate the concern behind the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Mottistone to make sure that local authorities retain the freedom to make their own judgments about what arrangements need to be made. From the discussion on earlier amendments, it will be clear to the Committee that we attach great importance to the development of additional training for social workers who carry out duties under the Act. That is why we have made it a requirement that local authorities should have regard to such matters as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State may direct on this subject. We have in mind here the draft guidance about approval and training for approval, on which, as I have said, we are currently consulting the local authorities and relevant professional bodies. I feel sure that the local authorities will welcome the guidelines, because their use will ensure that all social workers undertaking duties under the Act have received adequate specialised training and are experienced in dealing with mental disorder.
I should here stress to my noble friend that we are talking about guidelines, not about rules. They are intended as an outline only, within which individual authorities will be able to work out the local details of their training programmes. But we cannot leave this entirely to local discretion. The duties of mental welfare officers—to be replaced by approved social workers—are too important for Government to be able to stand aside altogether. I know that mental welfare officers presently carry out their duties most carefully and conscientiously, but there is concern that in some cases they lack the training necessary for this specialised work, as the debate has shown. It is to meet this difficulty that we have introduced the concept of the approved social worker. It will have real meaning only if all local authorities up and down the country apply similar standards in approving their social workers.
My noble friend Lord Mottistone raised specifically the resource implications. My noble friend Lord Elton explained the matter of resources at some length in a written reply of 22nd December to a Parliamentary Question from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, to which he has kindly referred earlier in terms of gratification. My noble friend Lord Mottistone may find it helpful to refer to that point, if I may so suggest it. It was stressed there that a main feature of the introduction of approval would be to concentrate specialized

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training among the small number of social workers who are needed to undertake duties under the Act, and so make it possible to reduce the number receiving this training. This will mean that the cost of providing better training on the lines suggested in the proposed guidance will be offset by a reduction in the numbers to be trained. I must make it clear that the majority of local authorities already provide some form of training scheme, and the better schemes are very similar to the proposed guidance. Thus I think we can say that most authorities are not being asked to embark on a new venture that is not budgeted for.
My noble friend Lord Mottistone referred to discussions with the DOE. I know that my noble friend is concerned whether the Department of the Environment has been consulted about proposals for approved social workers. The department has certainly been informed and I can confirm that to him. However, as I have already said, the resource implications of approval are not expected to be significant. On the other hand, the advantages of being assured that all social workers undertaking duties under the Act have been thoroughly trained are considerable. I feel sure that the Committee would agree that this assurance is not something we should forsake. We have had a useful discussion on the amendment and I hope that the explanation I have given may help my noble friend Lord Mottistone to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mottistone: I am deeply grateful to my noble friend for his very full answer. I thought for one awful moment that he was not going to answer the question that I particularly asked him, but he did. He also answered the question that I was going to ask him next. I am reassured, in particular, that he emphasised the point that the background to this training programme will be in the form of guidelines rather than rigid instruction. Of course any training programme must have a degree of similarity as between one part of the country and another, but the greater the degree to which local authorities do not feel they are being told by central Government precisely how to do things, the better. With that reassurance, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 108 not moved.]
5.57 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Coslany Lord Wallace of Coslany moved Amendment No. 109:
Page 31, line 17, at end insert—
("(5) No application for the admission of a patient to a hospital may be made by a mental welfare officer whose principal place of employment is at that hospital.").
The noble Lord said: I admit that this is a very contentious amendment. Compulsory admission under the Mental Health Act 1959 is founded on a system of safeguards and assessment by professionals who must be independent and unbiased. Thus, two medical recommendations should be independent of each other, and the application of the social worker or nearest relative must in fact be independent of the medical practitioners. The clear rationale behind the Act for involving several different professions is to ensure that each professional forms a judgment without influence or persuasion by others. This is a funda
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mental principle necessary to safeguard the rights and liberties of prospective patients. There is no question but that Parliament took this view in 1959.
Section 28(3) of the Act specifies that both medical reports cannot emanate from the same receiving hospital. When the 1959 Act was written, hospital-based social workers were appointed by hospitals and were separate from the local authority, which was empowered to appoint mental welfare officers—MWOs —and it was the local authority social worker who was independent of the receiving hospital which was authorised to make an application for compulsory admission. Questions about the independence of social workers therefore did not arise and there was no need to incorporate a provision in the Act to maintain the independence of the MWO. However, some postSeebohm local authority social workers are in a different position. They are at one and the same time local authority social workers and attached to a hospital. If such hospital social workers were authorised to sign applications for compulsory admission, they would be expected to divorce themselves from the therapeutic team at the hospital and become independent protectors of patients' rights. This presents a clear conflict of interest for the social worker and violates every concept of independence and natural justice.
It is important to bear in mind that a hospital based social worker is a member of the clinical team at the hospital, which is led by a consultant; this consultant would be a patient's responsible medical officer and would already have provided some of the recommendations for his compulsory admission. In these circumstances, it would be difficult for some social workers to resist the opinion of the team leader, although, let us face it, no doubt some would do so in proper circumstances. Further, it must be observed that the social worker is sometimes a relatively junior member of the clinical team, which further undermines his or her independence. That, basically, is why this amendment has been put down. We have already discussed the responsibilities of the new approved social workers, and we feel that, when opinions and decisions have to be taken, if they are not part of the hospital team they are in a better position to assert their rights and responsibilities as such. I beg to move.
Baroness Faithfull: In view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, was so generous to me over Amendment No. 109A, I am sorry not to be generous to him over this amendment. I believe, if I may say so, that we have all read exactly what he said in a pamphlet which I think he has received from a certain organisation. Those of us who have dealt with cases like this know that very often you can give a better service, first, if you know the hospital, secondly, if you know the staff, and, thirdly, if you know the patient. If you have a relationship with the patient you can very often do things with that patient that, according to this pamphlet, he would not like.
I must tell your Lordships that I was called out at about three in the morning to sanction a boy who absolutely refused to go into mental hospital, and there was a great deal of difficulty. I had known that boy for 10 years. It could be said that I should have tried to prevent him going into a mental hospital. The only reason why he would not go into mental hospital was

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that he wanted to know who was going to look after his dog, which was called Buster. Because I knew that he had a dog called Buster, and because I knew that it was the only thing in the world he loved, I said to him, "I will look after Buster"—which was a great sacrifice, I might say—"if you will go into mental hospital". He said, "I will go into mental hospital". If that had been somebody who did not know the boy and the background and this extraordinary dog called Buster, that would have prevented him from going into mental hospital.
If one is a good social worker and a wise social worker, and if one has a sense of the rightness of the case, I would suggest that one is not going to be swayed one way or the other whether one knows the case or does not. But I would suggest that it is good casework to have established a relationship and to know the background of a case. Therefore, with the utmost regret, I would not support this amendment.
Lord Elton: I feel it is hardly necessary for me to speak after that splendidly apposite and well-informed intervention by my noble friend. Of course we do recognise that there is great concern that the mental welfare officer should exercise his judgment independently in making applications for admission under the Act, and, what is more, should be seen to do so. There may be cases where social workers based in a hospital and undertaking mental welfare officer duties find it difficult to act independently in making application to that hospital, and that may well arise most often where the doctor with whom the social worker is working has made one of the medical recommendations. But it is our view that this sort of case should be a matter for good practice rather than legislation, largely for the reasons which my noble friend has just given. I should like to add another dimension, which is that some social workers—indeed, I think an increasing number now—do divide their work between area teams and the hospital, and they may well be for that reason more familiar with the case than they otherwise would be and more familiar than anybody else is.
Following the transfer of social workers employed by health service bodies to local authority social service departments in 1974, guidance was issued on the matter to directors of social services. It stated that it should be made clear to each hospital social worker who is appointed as a mental welfare officer that if in any case he feels that he cannot act or be seen to act independently he should get advice from his superior officer as to whether another person should act in his stead. We are not aware that any problems have arisen. Indeed, some social workers based in hospitals may be particularly suited to do this work by virtue of their background and knowledge and experience, provided the safeguards I have referred to are observed. Guidance is currently being prepared for the use of health and local authorities in the form of a code of practice on admission procedures, and it is intended that this guidance shall draw attention to this important matter. I do think that guidance is the appropriate place for this concern, and not legislation.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: When the noble Baroness
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dealt with me in the earlier stages I felt like a naughty little boy put in the corner by the headmistress for misbehaving. However, I do thank her for what she has said because it obviously came from her great experience. I am glad she looked after Buster, the little dog. I would thank the Minister for what he has said, and will think about this. I agree it is very contentious.
Lord Elton: Before the noble Lord withdraws the amendment, I think I should say what a magnificent example that was that my noble friend gave, and it does show that social workers are thoroughly human, thoroughly wise, thoroughly sensible, and also prepared to take on a great deal more than statute or guidelines or anything else demands. Who would take on Buster as a result of a statute? I congratulate my noble friend.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I agree. It hit me for six right in the heart. I do not think I need prolong this any further. I will beg leave to withdraw the amendment, and will, of course, consider it further.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 43 agreed to.
Baroness Faithfull Baroness Faithfull moved Amendment No. 109A:
After Clause 43, insert the following new clause:
("Role of approved social worker.
The role of the approved social worker of a social services department is—

(a) to make application for admission or guardianship where required;

(b) to investigate the patient's social situation and to identify in consultations with others involved, the extent to which social and environmental pressures have contributed to his observed behaviour, and to interview the patient;

(c) to use his professional skills to help resolve any social, relationship or environmental difficulties which have contributed to the crisis, and to mobilise community resources appropriately;

(d) to he familiar with legal requirements and to ensure that they are complied with;

(e) to form his own opinions, following an interview with the patient, with those closest to him, and with others involved, as to whether compulsory admission is necessary having regard to any alternative methods of resolving the crisis, and of securing necessary care or treatment;

(f) to ensure that care and treatment is offered in the least restrictive conditions possible;

(g) to work in partnership with the medical profession; and

(h) to be trained at an approved Mental Health Training Centre.").

The noble Baroness said: I am in some difficulty over this amendment. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, for what he said about this amendment. Looking at it, I think we have in fact discussed it in every clause, but nevertheless I wonder whether I may move the amendment in order to ask my noble friend the Minister whether there is anything he would wish to say on this amendment that he has not already said. I beg to move.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: Rather to the surprise of your Lordships, I, and not my noble friend, will be speaking on this amendment. I am afraid we do not agree with the noble Baroness's approach to this subject, and, although we do appreciate how important it

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is that the role of the approved social worker should be made clear, we do not think it undesirable that it should be done in the way suggested.
The main functions of mental welfare officers or approved social workers, as the Bill proposes they will be called, are set out in Section 54 of the 1959 Act, as amended by Clause 16 of the Bill. Some of the functions listed in the amendment are thus already covered—for example, the duty to make applications where this is considered necessary, and the duty to interview the patient before making an application for hospital admission. Clause 16 also makes it clear that, as part of these functions, the approved social worker must do anything necessary to make sure that detention in hospital is the most appropriate course and this encompasses functions (e) and (f) on the list.
The remaining matters refer to good professional practice and I feel sure that my noble friend would agree with me that it is not appropriate for this to be the subject of legislation. As to points (d) and (h), these are covered in the draft guidelines on approval to which I have already referred and which I know the noble Baroness has received. As I am sure your Lordships will know, the main disadvantage of including a list like this in legislation is that, however carefully drafted, it is never comprehensive and this leads to uncertainty when the omissions are discovered.
However, I am grateful to my noble friend for having given us the benefit of her views on the arrangement of training. Draft guidance about this has been issued for consultation with local authorities and other relevant bodies, as your noble Lordships know. We shall be taking into account at the same time as these consultations, what my noble friend has said with all her knowledge on the subject.
Lord Renton: Although I am sure that all of your Lordships will agree with my noble friend on what should be the role of the approved social worker, the question is: what should be the role of legislation! I think that we have to be rather careful not gratuitously to go into too much detail, because let me remind your Lordships—I hope that I do not appear to pontificate—that the main function of legislation is to create rights and to create remedies. If we are merely going to use it as a descriptive vehicle for the various roles of various occupations—even those in the public service—then legislation may be exceeding its proper function.
Baroness Faithfull: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renton. I think that perhaps I ought to come clean to your Lordship's Committee and say that I set this down as a probing amendment in order to be able to talk about the training of social workers. That was forestalled, of course, by the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, and we discussed the matter then. I take the point that it is a descriptive role. At the same time I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that we should discuss this matter further. Therefore, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I shall reintroduce it at the Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 44 to 46 agreed to.
Clause 47 [Orders and regulations.]:
6.13 p.m.
Lord Kilmarnock Lord Kilmarnock moved Amendment No. 109B:
Page 32, line 18, after ("35(4)") insert ("or 42").
The noble Lord said: The object of this amendment to Clause 47 will be immediately apparent to all Members of your Lordships' Committee who have followed at all closely the progress of the Bill. It is to oblige the Secretary of State to bring any orders concerning the composition or powers or duties of the Mental Health Act Commission under Clause 42 before Parliament for scrutiny and approval by both Houses of Parliament. At present Clause 47(3) provides that the Secretary of State shall not make an order under Clause 35(4) unless a draft of it has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament. Clause 35(4) does, indeed, cover an important matter. It empowers the Secretary of State, by order, to vary the length of the periods mentioned in subsection (2) of that clause which concern the automatic referrals to a tribunal after three years and, in the case of patients under the age of 16, after one year. That is an important matter and the Secretary of State is required, if he wants to change that, to bring a draft before Parliament. I submit that my amendment to oblige him to follow the same procedure for orders under Clause 42 is even more important.
Perhaps I should apologise for reverting to Clause 42 on which we have already had a fairly lengthy debate. But I am afraid that I was not entirely happy with all that I heard and so I want to go back to Clause 42. I listened with great care to the arguments which were put forward in support of Amendments Nos. 99, 101, 101A and 101B which were really concerned with something slightly different namely, the accountability of the commission, which is certainly a very important matter, and various noble Lords seemed to think that a report, whether an annual report or triennial report would be appropriate. However, I think that that does not go quite far enough.
At the very outset of the passage of this Bill through this House—that is to say its Second Reading—expressions of concern were voiced about the vagueness of the commission's powers, duties, composition and methods of work. There have been further expressions of concern this afternoon in your Lordships' Committee. The Bill is positively laconic about the Mental Health Act Commission—which, after all, is almost the keystone of the architecture of the Bill; I think that the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, used the word "silent".
Some of us—the general public obviously not—have had the benefit of the notes which the noble Lord, Lord Elton, very kindly sent to some of us. and which I have read with great care, particularly on Clause 42. But even the explanation given there of the Government's intentions do not extirely allay my fears; indeed, to some extent they increase them. The commission will have some very wide-ranging powers and responsibilities. It will provide the second opinion under Clause 38 allowing the giving of treatment to detained patients if they do not, or are unable to, consent. It will appoint medical practitioners for the purpose of preparing a code of practice under Clause 39—that is to say, covering treatments of special concern—and it will decide which treatments should be covered by that code of practice. It is

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also to be noted that it may appoint medical practitioners from among its own members for all these purposes, which casts some doubts upon the Government's claim that such doctors will be independent.
On the question of the composition of the Mental Health Act Commission, the Bill is totally silent and there is not even a schedule covering this matter. However, the notes suggest that there should be a total of 70 members split up into five regional panels and it would appear that the Government envisage regional panels consisting of two lawyers; two nurses; two psychologists; two social workers; two laymen; and four psychiatrists. That makes 14 in all for each regional panel with a very heavy professional preponderance. That is all set out in the notes, but the Bill itself says nothing about it.
We also learnt from the notes on Clause 42(1) that the commission will be governed by the relevant provisions of the National Health Service Act 1977 and in particular by Part III of Schedule 5 to that Act. This, the notes say, avoids the necessity of taking separate powers in the Bill to make provision about membership. But I would respectfully suggest that this particular health authority is not quite the same, and is in not quite the same league or category, as those provided for in the National Health Service Act. There is surely one great difference; it deals with men's minds rather than their bodies and its powers directly affect the liberty of the subject in a way that no regional health authority's do. In fact, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, himself referred to the deprivation of liberty—I think that was his phrase.
I am not for a moment suggesting that the commission's members, when appointed, will not be conscientious, indeed, dedicated and devoted people; I rather think that they will have to be. But we must always bear in mind that when we put something on the statute book it may remain there for a very long time and that in due course other people may succeed us who have rather different ideas on freedom.
Lord Mottistone: Is the noble Lord not taking advantage of our procedures to have the debate on Clause 42 stand part all over again, all by himself? Is it entirely in accordance with the sort of feeling of how things should be taken in a Committee stage of this House and does the Committee agree with this? —because we have already been over the ground completely.
Lord Kilmarnock: In fact, while we were talking about Clause 42 I asked the noble Lord, Lord Elton, whether I should make my remarks at that time, and I think he gave me guidance to the effect that it would be better if I reserved them until later.
Lord Elton: My guidance to the noble Lord was that any remarks he had about this amendment would be appropriate to the debate about this amendment. This amendment is not about the composition of the Mental Health Act Commission, and I thought that he was going to talk about that when we were discussing it. He is talking about two alternative parliamentary procedures for overseeing subordinate legislation, which brings those provisions into effect. Had I
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known that he was going to talk about how the commission was to be composed—and many noble Lords who have strong views on this and have expressed them and might have wished to return to the charge, have now left the Chamber with no means of knowing that we were going to return to this ground—I would have given him different advice, but he did not tell me.
Lord Kilmarnock: I am sorry about that. With due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, my remarks arise from my concern about the very considerable powers of the commission and also the point—which, with due respect, I do not think was made when we were talking about Clause 42—that this particular health authority will be rather a different sort of health authority from those which are specified in the National Health Service Act 1977. As I said a minute or so ago, the authority will have control over men's minds rather than over their bodies. I consider that to be a matter of very great concern.
It is principally on that ground and also because of the lack of detail that we have in the Bill concerning the commission, that I wish to insert—and still wish to insert—in Clause 47 a requirement on the Secretary of State to bring orders under Clause 42—that is why I am talking about Clause 42; after all, my amendment refers back to Clause 42 as well—before Parliament in the same way as he is required to do so for certain actions under Clause 35(4). I consider that, in fact, this is a more important matter which requires greater scrutiny by Parliament than that matter which he is required at the present moment to bring before Parliament.
I am sorry to have detained your Lordships and I apologise to the noble Lord for perhaps our slight misunderstanding earlier, but that is the background to this amendment. I hope that I have demonstrated to your Lordships the desirability of specifying in the Bill that the Secretary of State should—nay, must—bring before Parliament his proposals in relation to this potentially very powerful body. I beg to move.
Lord Elton: Perhaps I may reply to that rather briefly because I have already delineated the grounds of my reply. I should like to say, first, that the reason the clause which the noble Lord wants to bring into the embrace of this procedure is omitted while Clause 35(4) is included is that under Clause 35(4) the Secretary of State has the power to take a right away from a patient or to reduce it; whereas under Clause 42 the intention is that he shall take steps to defend the rights of a patient or increase them.
It seems to me that that is perfectly proper. If the noble Lord has strong feelings—he may not be alone in this—that this sort of matter should be debated when it arises, it is perfectly within his power to pray against the order. The Bill simply says that Clause 35(4) shall be under the affirmative procedure; it does not mention the clause which the noble Lord has at heart—that therefore goes on the negative procedure. But there is no earthly reason why the noble Lord should not precipitate a debate, and I am sure that he is sufficiently interested that on the one occasion when this comes before Parliament he will be there to wave a red flag.
Lord Kilmarnock: I am grateful to the noble Lord I fully understand that the intention behind the commission is that it should be the watchdog of the detained patient. I believe that that is the phrase that is used in the Government's notes. My concern is whether at some future time Secretaries of State—perhaps yet unborn—and certainly commissioners as yet unappointed may choose to view their duties in a slightly different light. That is why I wish to make it incumbent upon the Secretary of State to bring orders under Clause 42 before Parliament. However, I certainly do not intend to press this amendment at this stage. I wanted to get some idea of the Government's feelings on the matter. I shall consider with great care what the noble Lord has said and I may well return to the matter at the Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 110:
Page 32, line 18, after ("above") insert ("paragraph 3(3) of Schedule (Discharge of restricted patients) to this Act.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is consequential to the changes in regard to restricted patients which we discussed under Clause 26. Its effect is to provide that an order varying the period since the last tribunal, after which the Secretary of State will be required to refer the case of a restricted patient to a further tribunal, shall be subject to affirmative Resolution by both Houses of Parliament. It is somewhat familiar in the light of what we have just been discussing. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 47, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Renton: I should like to raise a very short point. I should like to refer to the fact that under subsection (I) it says:
"Any power of the Secretary of State to make orders or regulations under this Act shall be exercisable by statutory instrument".
If we turn back to Clause 42(2)(b) we find:
"the functions of the Secretary of State under section 41 above"
shall be performed by the commission under a direction from the Secretary of State, and included among those functions is, under Clause 41(3) a power to make regulations.
Therefore, this is a regulation-making power of the Secretary of State which he will be obliged to get the commission to perform on his behalf. Will such regulations be subject to the provisions of, first, subsection (1) and, secondly, subsection (2) of Clause 47? I think that we ought to know this. I would merely add that the fact that the point arises at all increases one's sense of confusion about Clause 42(2)(b).
Lord Elton: What I say in reply to this question will be tinged with speculation because it is a highly technical question. As I read Clause 47(2), it says:
"Any statutory instrument containing reulations made under this Act shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a regolution of either House of Parliament".
I do not see that any particular statutory instrument is excluded from the action of that subsection. I do not
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think that I can elaborate on that. If there is a point of substance, I shall come to the noble Lord before the Report stage. It sounds as though there will be an opportunity to talk about Clause 42 at least at the next stage, and perhaps I shall be able to cast rather more light on that then than I can now.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clause 49 [Interpretation and supplementary provisions]:
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 111:
Page 32, line 41, at end insert—
("(b) section 122 (allocations to tribunals);").
The noble Lord said: This is a further amendment consequential upon the new scheme for restricted patients which we discussed under Clause 26. Its effect is purely technical, providing that application to a mental health review tribunal may not be made otherwise than as provided for in this Act. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 49, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 50 [Commencement and transitional provisions]:
6.31 p.m.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 112:
Page 33, line 13, after ("day") insert ("(not being earlier than the said 30th September)").
The noble Lord said: As I indicated on Second Reading, Clauses 27 to 29 of the Bill will have to be brought into effect after the other provisions of the Bill. The present intention is that this should happen, if necessary by stages, over the two or three years after the Bill has been passed. There is certainly no prospect, I fear, of bringing them into effect sooner than the rest of the Bill. Accordingly, the Bill is, in its present form, unnecessarily complicated, in so far as it provides for the possibility of their being brought into effect prior to the other provisions of the Bill. This amendment simplifies the Bill by excluding reference to the possibility of prior implementation. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton: moved Amendment No. 113:
Page 33, line 17, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Lord said: I think that these two amendments stand together. I apologise to the Committee, but I have got slightly confused.
The two amendments together have the effect that I have just described. I apologise for the hesitation in committing myself to that, but I was not certain that it was the case.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 50, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Mottistone: There is just one small point about Clause 50. Clause 50(1) reads:
"Subject to the provisions of this section, this Act shall come into force on 30th September 1983".

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May I ask my noble friend whether that is therefore the deadline date for the two years mentioned in Clause 43(1), or whether that is two years from the date when the Act is passed? Is there a difference? It would be nice to know just what that is. If my noble friend cannot answer me now, perhaps he will let me know.
Lord Elton: The answer is, no. It is two years from the date when the Bill is passed.
Clause 50, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 51 agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 114:
Before Schedule 1, insert the following new Schedule:

SCHEDULE DISCHARGE OF RESTRICTED PATIENTS
Preliminary
1. In this Schedule—
"restricted patient" means a patient who is subject to a restrict on order or restriction direction;
"the relevant hospital order" and "the relevant transfer direction", in relation to a restricted patient, mean the hospital order or transfer direction by virtue of which he is liable to be detained in a hospital;
"hospital" includes a mental nursing home.
Right to apply to Mental Health Review Tribunal
2. A restricted patient may apply to a Mental Health Review Tribunal—

(a) in the period between the expiration of six months and the expiration of twelve months beginning with the date of the relevant hospital order or transfer direction; and

(b) in any subsequent period of twelve months.

Reference by Secretary of State
3.—(1) The Secretary of State may at any time refer the case of a restricted patient to a Mental Health Review Tribunal.
(2) The Secretary of State shall refer to a Mental Health Review Tribunal the case of any restricted patient detained in a hospital whose case has not been considered by such a tribunal, whether on his own application or otherwise, within the last three years.
(3) The Secretary of State may by order vary the length of the period mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) above.
(4) Any reference under sub-paragraph (1) above in respect of a patient who has been conditionally discharged and not recalled to hospital shall be made to the tribunal for the area in which the patient resides.
Discharge of patients
4. Section 123(1) of the principal Act shall not apply in the case of a restricted patient except as provided in paragraphs 5 and 6 below.
5.—(1) Where an application to a Mental Health Review Tribunal is made by a restricted patient who is subject to a restriction order, or where the case of such a patient is referred to such a tribunal, the tribunal shall direct the absolute discharge of the patient if satisfied—

(a) as to the matters mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) of section 123(1) of the principal Act; and

(b) that it is not appropriate for the patient to remain liable to be recalled to hospital for further treatment.

(2) Where in the case of any such patient as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) above the tribunal are satisfied as to the matters referred to in paragraph (a) of that sub-paragraph but not as to the matter referred to in paragraph (b) of that subparagraph the tribunal shall direct the conditional discharge of the patient.
(3) Where a patient is absolutely discharged under this paragraph he shall thereupon cease to be liable to be detained by virtue of the relevant hospital order, and the restriction order shall cease to have effect accordingly.
(4) Where a patient is conditionally discharged under this paragraph—

(a) he may be recalled by the Secretary of State under subsection (3) of section 66 of the principal Act as if he had been conditionally discharged under subsection (2) of that section; and

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(b) the patient shall comply with such conditions (if any) as may be imposed at the time of discharge by the tribunal or at any subsequent time by the Secretary of State.

(5) The Secretary of State may from time to time vary any condition imposed (whether by the tribunal or by him) under sub-paragraph (4) above.
(6) Where a restriction order in respect of a patient ceases to have effect after he has been conditionally discharged under this paragraph the patient shall, unless previously recalled, be deemed to be absolutely discharged on the date when the order ceases to have effect and shall cease to be liable to he detained by virtue of the relevant hospital order.
(7) A tribunal may defer a direction for the conditional discharge of a patient until such arrangements as appear to the tribunal to be necessary for that purpose have been made to their satisfaction; and where by virtue of any such deferment no direction has been given on an application or reference before the time when the patient's case comes before the tribunal on a subsequent application or reference, the previous application or reference shall be treated as one on which no direction under this paragraph can be given.
(8) This paragraph is without prejudice to section 66 of the principal Act (termination of restriction orders and absolute or conditional discharge by the Secretary of State).
6.—(1) Where an application to a Mental Health Review Tribunal is made by a restricted patient who is subject to a restriction direction, or where the case of such a patient is referred to such a tribunal, the tribunal—

(a) shall notify the Secretary of State, whether, in their opinion, the patient would, if subject to a restriction order, be entitled to be absolutely or conditionally discharged under paragraph 5 above; and

(b) if they notify him that the patient would he entitled to be conditionally discharged, may recommend that in the event of his not being discharged under this paragraph he should continue to be detained in hospital.

(2) If in the case of a patient not falling within sub-paragraph (4) below—

(a) the tribunal notify the Secretary of State that the patient would be entitled to be absolutely or conditionally discharged; and

(b) within the period of ninety days beginning with the date of that notification the Secretary of State gives notice to the tribunal that the patient may be so discharged, the tribunal shall direct the absolute or, as the case may be, the conditional discharge of the patient.

(3) Where a patient continues to be liable to be detained in a hospital at the end of the period referred to in sub-paragraph (2)(b) above because the Secretary of State has not given the notice there mentioned, the managers of the hospital shall, unless the tribunal have made a recommendation under sub-paragraph (1)(b) above, transfer the patient to a prison or other institution in which he might have been detained if he had not been removed to hospital, there to be dealt with as if he had not been so removed.
(4) If, in the case of a patient who is subject to a transfer direction under section 73 of the principal Act, the tribunal notify the Secretary of State that the patient would be entitled to be absolutely or conditionally discharged, the Secretary of State shall, unless the tribunal have made a recommendation under sub-paragraph (1)(b) above, by warrant direct that the patient be remitted to a prison or other institution in which he might have been detained if he had not been removed to hospital, there to be dealt with as if he had not been so removed.
(5) Where a patient is transferred or remitted under subparagraph (3) or (4) above the relevant transfer direction and the restriction direction shall cease to have effect on his arrival in the prison or other institution.
(6) Sub-paragraphs (3) to (8) of paragraph 5 above shall have effect in relation to this paragraph as they have effect in relation to that paragraph, taking references to the relevant hospital order and the restriction order as references to the transfer direction and the restriction direction.
(7) This paragraph is without prejudice to sections 75 and 76 of the principal Act and section 24 and 25 of this Act (termination of transfer directions and return to prison etc. of transferred prisoners) in their application to patients who are not discharged under this paragraph.
Further consideration of case of conditionally discharged patient
7.—(1) Where a restricted patient has been conditionally

1177
discharged under this Schedule or under section 66(2) of the principal Act and is subsequently recalled to hospital—

(a) the Secretary of State shall, within one month of the day on which the patient returns or is returned to hospital, refer his case to a Mental Health Review Tribunal; and

(b) paragraph 2 above shall apply to the patient as if the relevant hospital order or transfer direction had been made on that day.

(2) Where a restricted patient has been conditionally discharged as aforesaid but has not been recalled to hospital he may apply to a Mental Health Review Tribunal—

(a) in the period between the expiration of twelve months and the expiration of two years beginning with the date on which he was conditionally discharged; and

(b) in any subsequent period of two years.

(3) Any application under sub-paragraph (2) above shall be made to the tribunal for the area in which the patient resides.
(4) Paragraphs 5 and 6 above shall not apply to an application under sub-paragraph (2) above but on any such application the tribunal may—

(a) vary any condition to which the patient is subject by virtue of paragraph 6 above or impose any condition which might have been imposed under that paragraph; or

(b) direct that the restriction order or restriction direction to which he is subject shall cease to have effect;

and if the tribunal give a direction under paragraph (b) above the patient shall cease to be liable to be detained by virtue of the relevant hospital order or transfer direction.
Procedure and composition of tribunals
8.—(1) Rules under section 124 of the principal Act may make provision as to the procedure to be adopted in cases concerning restricted patients and, in particular—

(a) for restricting the persons qualified to serve as president of a tribunal for the consideration of any application or reference relating to a restricted patient;

(b) for the transfer of proceedings from one tribunal to another in any case where, after the making of a reference or application in accordance with paragraph 3(3) or 7(3) above, the applicant ceases to reside in the area of the tribunal to which the reference or application was made.

(2) Paragraph 6 of Schedule I to the principal Act shall have effect subject to any rules made by virtue of sub-para— graph (1)(a) above.
Persons treated as restricted patients
9.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, the foregoing provisions of this Schedule shall have effect in relation to a person to whom this paragraph applies as they have effect in relation to a restricted patient.
(2) This paragraph applies to any person who—

(a) is subject to a direction which by virtue of section 71(4) of the principal Act has the same effect as a hospital order and a restriction order; or

(b) is treated as subject to a hospital order and a restriction order by virtue of an order under section 5(1) of the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964 or section 6 or 14(1) of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968; or

(c) is treated as subject to a hospital order and a restriction order or to a transfer direction and a restriction direction by virtue of section 87(2) of the principal Act, section 33(2) of this Act or section 73(2) of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960.

(3) In the case of a person within paragraph (a) of sub-paragraph (2) above references in this Schedule to the relevant hospital order or restriction order shall be construed as references to the direction referred to in that paragraph.
(4) In the case of a person within paragraph (b) of sub-paragraph (2) above references in this Schedule to the relevant hospital order or restriction order shall be construed as references to the order under the provisions mentioned in that paragraph.
(5) A person who is treated as subject to a hospital order and a restriction order by virtue of an order under section 5(1) of the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964 may apply to a Mental Health Review Tribunal in the period of six months beginning with the date of that order; and where such a person does not exercise his right to apply to a tribunal within that period the Secretary of State shall at the expiration of that period refer his case to a tribunal.
(6) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (5) above a person who applies to a tribunal but subsequently withdraws his application
1178
shall be treated as not having exercised his right to apply, and where a patient withdraws his application on a date after the expiration of the period there mentioned the Secretary of State shall refer his case as soon as possible after that date.
(7) In the case of a person within paragraph (c) of sub-paragraph (2) above references in this Schedule to the relevant hospital order, the relevant transfer direction, the restriction order or the restriction direction or to a transfer direction under section 73 of the principal Act shall be construed as references to the hospital order, transfer direction, restriction order, restriction direction or transfer direction under that section to which that person is treated as subject by virtue of the provisions mentioned in that paragraph.")."
The noble Lord said: Your Lordships will recall that, when my noble friend Lord Belstead moved Amendment No. 51 on 25th of last month, he spoke at the same time to Amendment No. 114. Amendment No. 51 was a paving amendment which amended Clause 26 so as to provide that the new schedule to the Bill containing fresh provisions for dealing with restricted patients should have effect. This amendment inserts the new schedule itself.
My noble friend gave a quite detailed explanation of the provisions of the schedule when he moved Amendment No. 51, and the new scheme set out in the schedule was generally welcomed. I hope, accordingly, that your Lordships will agree that it is unnecessary for me to repeat what my noble friend said. In spite, therefore, of the length of this amendment, it has been covered, and I beg to move.
Lord Renton: I was one of those who greatly welcomed this new Schedule when my noble friend Lord Belstead moved it earlier in the proceedings. The Government are to be congratulated on the important new development contained in this new schedule. I have just one point on it which puzzles me very much. It arises on page 10 of the Marshalled List for today, and it concerns paragraph 9(5) of the schedule.
"A person who is treated as subject to a hospital order and a restriction order"—
under the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964—
"may apply to a Mental Health Review Tribunal in the period of six months beginning with the date of that order".
But it is rather strange to read on:
"where such a person does not exercise his right to apply to a tribunal within that period the Secretary of State",
cannot, it seems, until,
"the expiration of that period refer his case to a tribunal".
I should have thought that, if it seems as though a patient ought to apply to a tribunal and is obviously not going to, the Secretary of State should not have to wait six months before the tribunal's responsibility is engaged. I do not ask for an answer at this moment. I simply suggest that that is a point worth considering between now and Report stage.
As your Lordships will be relieved to know that I do not propose to speak further in your Lordships' Committee, may I say, as one who has troubled my noble friend Lord Elton to reply to some quite knotty problems which have arisen, how much I appreciate and admire the way that he has handled these proceedings?
Lord Elton: I am most grateful to my noble friend for that kind and complimentary remark. In return, may I assure him that the Secretary of State can refer a case to a tribunal at any time: the provision for that is in paragraph 3(1).
Lord Kilmarnock: I do not want to detain the Committee, but I also should like to thank the noble Lord for the way he has handled this rather complicated Committee stage, and also for the notes he has provided us with. The arrangements which the Government are proposing in order to implement the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights are a package of which the schedule is the last and possibly the biggest part. It is connected with the previous Amendments Nos. 51 and 44, which have already been carried in the Committee, and I have absolutely no objection to it. I just want to put down a marker at this stage to say that, looking at the package in its totality, I am still slightly unhappy about the way the rights of the unrestricted patients have been adversely affected in order to give the necessary ground for the new right for restricted patients, but I should like to come back to that at Report stage.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Consequential Amendments]:
6.40 p.m.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendments Nos. 115 to 117:
Page 35, line 12, leave out ("handicapped") and insert ("impaired").
Page 35, line 13, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 35, line 16, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
The noble Lord said: These amendments follow on Amendment No. 2. Your Lordships agreed that I might move these en bloc, which I beg leave so to do.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 118:
Page 35, line 20, at end insert—
("() at the end of subsection (3)(a) there shall be inserted the words "or Schedule (Discharge of restricted patients) to the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982;").
The noble Lord said: This follows from and arises out of the insertion in the Bill of the new schedule relating to restricted patients.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 119:
Page 36, line 4, leave out sub-paragraphs (f) and (g).
The noble Lord said: This is, in the same sense, a consequence, and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 119A:
Page 36, line 14, at end insert—
("(b) after subsection (3) there shall be inserted—
"(3A) The Crown Court shall have the like power to make orders under sections 27, 28 and 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982 in the case of a person committed to the court under this section as the Crown Court has under those sections in the case of an accused person within the meaning of section 27 or 28 or of a person convicted before that court as mentioned in section 29.".").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is a consequence of the introduction of the new powers of the courts in Clauses 27 to 29 of the Bill. It ensures that
1180
where an offender is committed by a magistrates' court to the Crown court under Section 67 of the principal Act with a view to the making of a hospital order with restrictions, the Crown court will have all the new powers under Clauses 27 to 29. It is arguable that this is already partly provided for by Section 67(3)(b), but the amendment puts the matter beyond doubt.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendments Nos. 120 to 125:
Page 36, line 23, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 36, line 24, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 36, line 26, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 37, line 5, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 37, line 47, leave out first ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
Page 37, line 47, leave out second ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
The noble Lord said: These follow Amendment No. 2. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 126:
Page 38, line 1, leave out from ("patient") to end of line 3.
The noble Lord said: I believe we took this with Amendments Nos. 118 and 119. If your Lordships are content, I will leave it at that.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 127:
Page 38, line 21, at end insert—
("(c) at the end of the entry in the second column relating to section 43 there shall be added the words " and in subsection (5A) for the words "the application for admission for treatment or, as the case may be, in the guardianship application, that application" there shall be substituted the words "the relevant order or direction under Part V of this Act, that order or direction".").
The noble Lord said: This is a technical amendment to repair an omission in the drafting of the Bill. It will ensure that the new Section 43(5A), which is inserted in the 1959 Act by Clause 12(7), applies appropriately to patients who are detained under Part V of that Act—that is, offender patients. References in the new Section 43(5A) to "an application for admission for treatment" and "a guardianship application" have to be changed in their application to Part V patients, to "an order or direction under Part V of the Act"—that is, a hospital order, a guardianship order or a transfer direction. This modification is made by an amendment in Schedule 1 to the Bill to Schedule 3 to the 1959 Act, and I hope your Lordships can follow that rather complicated process and agree to the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 128:
Page 38, line 32, leave out from ("and") to ("to") in line 33 and insert ("the reference").
The noble Lord said: This also is a technical amendment to correct a drafting error, for which I apologise. Paragraph 25(d) of Schedule I provides both that certain words within a paragraph and that the whole

1181
of that paragraph should be omitted. What we want to do is omit the whole paragraph, and this amendment takes out the reference to words within it. Paragraph 25(d) is consequential to Clause 13, which amends Section 47 of the 1959 Act. Paragraph 25(d) amends Schedule 3 to the 1959 Act to ensure that the revised Section 47 applies appropriately to patients detained under Part V of that Act. I realise that it must be impossible to follow that, even at what I hope is a reduced speed of delivery compared with my normal speed. I hope noble Lords will be content to reassure themselves via Hansard and accept the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129:
Page 38, line 44, leave out ("handicap") and insert ("impairment").
The noble Lord said: This is consequential on Amendment No. 2.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129A:
Page 39, line 30, at end insert—
("The Criminal Justice Act 1967
In section 72—

(a) in subsection (1)(b) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words "or section 29(8) of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982";

(b) in subsection (4) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words ", section 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".").

The noble Lord said: Section 72 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 enables the return to be effected from the Republic of Ireland to England and Wales of escaped prisoners and "convicted mental patients". A "convicted mental patient" includes a person,
"liable after being convicted of an offence to be detained under Part V of the Mental Health Act 1959".
This amendment extends the application of Section 72 of the 1967 Act to enable the return of a person who absconds while subject to an interim hospital order under the Bill. It is a very narrow extension, and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129B:
Page 39, line 31, at end insert—
(" . In section 8 after subsection (3) there shall be inserted—"(3A) If the person ordered to be retried was, immediately before the determination of his appeal, liable to be detained in pursuance of a remand under section 28 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982 or an interim hospital order under section 29 of that Act, the Court of Appeal may, if they think fit, order that he shall continue to be detained in a hospital, and in that event Part V of the Mental Health Act 1959 shall apply as if he had been ordered under this section to be kept in custody pending his retrial and were detained in pursuance of a transfer direction together with a restriction direction.".").
The noble Lord said: The effect of this amendment is simply to enable the continued detention in hospital of a person subject to remand to hospital under Clause 28 of the Bill, or an interim hospital order under Clause 29, who has been ordered to be retired by the Court of Appeal under Section 7 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968. The Court of Appeal is to be able to order that the person should remain under detention in hospital pending retrial on the same basis as that
1182
of other patients transferred to hospital under Section 73 of the principal Act while awaiting trial.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129C:
Page 40, line 2, leave out paragraph (a).
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the Committee I will speak to Amendment No. 144A with this amendment. Amendment 129C is technical. It is a consequence of Clause 21(3) of the Bill, which has the effect that the wording of Section 73(2) of the Act will in future cover the circumstances which at present require specific provision in paragraph 1 of Schedule 3 to the Criminal Appeal Act 1968. That paragraph will therefore become unnecessary and the effect of the amendment is to repeal it. Amendment No. 129C is consequential, if I may put it that way round, on Amendment No. 144A.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129D:
Page 40, line 22, at end insert—
("The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975
In section 13—

(a) in subsection (1)(b) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words ", section 29(8) of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982";

(b) in subsection (4) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words ", section 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".

In section 322—

(a) in subsection (1)(b) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words ", section 29(8) of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982";

(b) in subsection (4) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words ", section 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".

The Adoption Act 1976
In section 32(3)(c) after the words "the said Act of 1959" there shall be inserted the words "or the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".").
The noble Lord said: This is a consequence of the introduction of the new powers of the courts under Clauses 27 to 29.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 129E:
Page 40, line 25, at end insert—
("The Foster Children Act 1980
In section 2(5) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall he inserted the words "or the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".
The Limitation Act 1880
In section 38(4)(a) after the words "the Mental Health Act 1959" there shall be inserted the words "or section 28 or 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982".
The Contempt of Court Act 1981
In section 14(4)—

(a) after "1959" there shall be inserted the words "or an interim hospital order under section 29 of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act 1982";

(b) for the words "severe subnormality" there shall be substituted the words "severe mental impairment".

After section 14(4) there shall be inserted—
"(4A) Each of the superior courts shall have the like power to make an order under section 27 of the said Act of 1982 (remand for report on accused's mental condition) where there is reason to suspect that a person who could be committed to prison for contempt of court is suffering from mental illness or severe mental impairment as the Crown

1183
Court has under that section in the case of an accused person within the meaning of that section.".").
The noble Lord said: This is one of a series of amendments which take account of the new powers of the courts introduced by Clauses 27 to 29.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 130 to 142 not moved.]
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Repeals]:
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 143:
Page 42, line 35, column 3, leave out ("(a) the words") and insert ("the words "admitted to a hospital in pursuance of a hospital order, or" and").
The noble Lord said: This amendment and the following one are consequential upon the insertion into the Bill of the new clause after Clause 18 and of the new schedule relating to restricted patients, which we have already discussed. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 144:
Page 42, line 39, column 3, at end insert ("Section 66(6) to (8).").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 144A:
Page 43, line 3, at end insert—

("1968 c. 19.

The Criminal Appeal Act 1968.

In Schedule 3, paragraph 2.").

The noble Lord said: This is the amendment to which I spoke with Amendment No. 129C, and one is consequential upon the other. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Transitional provisions and savings]:
Lord Elton Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 145:
Page 45, line 9, at end insert—
("(3) Schedule (Discharge of restricted patients) to this Act has effect in relation to a restriction order or restriction direction made or given before the coming into force of that Schedule as well as in relation to one made or given later but—

(a) for the purposes of section 122(2) of the principal Act in its application to paragraphs 2 and 7(2) of that Schedule any reference to a tribunal under section 66(6) of the principal Act in respect of a patient shall be treated as an application made by him; and

(b) paragraphs 7(1)(a) and 9(5) of that Schedule do not apply where the period in question has expired before the coming into force of that Schedule.").

The noble Lord said: If the notes that I have been given can be believed to tally with the Marshalled List, we would appear to be ending our course. Noble Lords have been kind enough to say very agreeable, though I think not altogether deservedly agreeable, things about the way that I have conducted proceedings and I should like on this occasion to thank noble Lords for the very great patience and equanimity that they have shown when dealing with my own shortcomings.
This amendment makes provision for the transitional period in which the present arrangements whereby restricted patients have no direct access to a tribunal will give way to the new arrangements in the new
1184
schedule. I hope that your Lordships will be content with it, and I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.

Fishing Vessels (Acquisition and Improvement) (Grants) Scheme 1981
6.53 p.m.
Lord Sandys Lord Sandys rose to move, That the scheme laid before the House on 18th December 1981 be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this instrument is to extend for a further period of three years a scheme of Exchequer grants towards the cost of constructing and improving fishing vessels. The scheme provides fishermen with a grant of 25 per cent. of the approved cost of projects. Substantially similar arrangements have been in force for a number of years, and it might be of convenience to the House if I briefly draw attention to the changes which are proposed for the future.
First, past schemes have been administered by the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board. These statutory bodies were replaced last year, under the provisions of the Fisheries Act 1981, by a single new authority, the Sea Fish Industry Authority; and this new authority will administer the scheme in the future as the Government's agent.
Secondly, the new scheme will apply to Northern Ireland as well as to Great Britain. Until now Northern Ireland fishermen have been covered by a separate scheme. The new single scheme should bring some small benefits in respect of savings of administrative effort, and fishermen in all parts of the country will be eligible for grant aid on the same terms.
Thirdly, the so-called "control periods" for the grant are reduced. For some years after payment of the grant beneficiaries must observe certain conditions. One such condition is that the vessel must remain in the United Kingdom fishing fleet. If the conditions are not observed, all or part of the grant becomes repayable. The control period is essential to ensure that Government funds are properly used. However, if the control period is unnecessarily long, it can inhibit the process of adapting the fleet to future needs, and that would be undesirable. With this in mind the Government have decided that the control period for new vessels should be reduced from 10 years to five years and for improvements to vessels from five years to three years. The shorter periods will apply both for vessels already grant aided and for the future. I understand that the fishing industry has already welcomed this change.
The scheme will provide funds to assist the fishing industry to improve and adapt our fleet to the needs of the future. In providing grants from Exchequer funds the scheme also provides the national grant element which is needed to enable our fishermen to be eligible for additional grants from the European Community. In 1981 our industry obtained approval for grants from the Community amounting to £2.3 million. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the scheme laid before the House on 18th December 1981 be approved.—(Lord Sandys.)
6.56 p.m.
Lord Peart: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his succinct way of introducing this subject. I believe that he has touched upon every important point, and I am glad that this instrument is to go through both Houses without opposition. I have been looking at what has happened in another place, where there has been a very good debate on fish, and I should like to know when we are to have a similar debate in this House. After all, fishing is one of our great industries. I am not going to repeat what the noble Lord has said. I have noted his main points, which are important, and I shall try to extend the debate a little further. As a former fisheries Minister, I know that our fishing industry has had its troubles, but we must look to it as a great industry that not only provides food for our people, but in times of crisis plays a major part, with many of its men in the Royal Navy and other subsidiary organisations.
We are dealing here with a major industry, and I think of ports such as Hull and Grimsby. I think, too, of the fishing industry in Scotland, which is also very important. I understand that the scheme will apply to Northern Ireland as well as to Great Britain. Until now Northern Ireland fishermen have been covered by a separate scheme. The new single scheme should bring some small benefit in respect of savings of administrative effort, and fishermen in all parts of the country will be eligible for grant aid on the same terms.
I should like to deal quickly with the argument about "control periods" relating to the grant. I think that the proposal here is right, and I hope that it will be regarded as sensible. For some years after payment of the grant beneficiaries must observe certain conditions. One such condition is that the vessel must remain in the United Kingdom fishing fleet, and I hope that that will prove to be so. There has been criticism about selling trawlers to other people—New Zealand has been involved in this. While sometimes we should export in this field, we must remember that our fleet needs to be built up. I believe that the proposals are broadly acceptable—I congratulate the Government—and I hope that they will provide the improvement that we want.
Added to that we must also consider our role in the Community. On the other hand, I believe that many of our troubles regarding fish involve other matters which it would be improper for me to deal with this evening. I believe that this scheme will provide funds to assist the fishing industry to improve and adapt our fleet to the needs of the future. In providing grants from Exchequer funds, the scheme also provides the national grant element which is needed to enable our fishermen to be eligible for additional grants from the European Community. I understand that in 1981 our industry obtained approval for grants from the Community of £2.3 million.
I believe that this instrument is to extend for a further period of three years a scheme of Exchequer grants towards the cost of constructing and improving fishing vessels. The scheme provides fishermen with a grant of 25 per cent. of the approved cost of projects. Substantially similar arrangements have been in
1186
force for a number of years, and it may be of convenience to the House if we look at the changes which are proposed in the future. First, past schemes have been administered by the White Fish Authority and the Herring Industry Board. These statutory bodies were replaced last year (I remember taking part in the debate and welcoming the approach of the Government) under the provisions of the Fisheries Act 1981 by a single new authority, the Sea Fish Industry Authority. This new authority will administer the scheme in the future as the Government's agent.
So I welcome this instrument. I know that this is only a short debate—it would be wrong to expand too much—but I hope that on some other occasion we shall be able to discuss in greater depth the fishing industry, which is so important. So, even though we are allowing this statutory instrument to go through its processes, I believe that at some stage the Government must afford time for a major debate on the fishing industry.
Lord Sandys: My Lords, I am very glad to have the support and welcome given to this order by the noble Lord, Lord Peart, in the terms he used and in the way in which he said that he believes that this order which the Government are now putting forward will be of benefit to our fishing industry. It is true to say that the arrangements proposed in this order follow as a direct consequence from the legislation a year ago. I shall certainly pass on to my right honourable friend the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Peart, who was, of course, a former Minister of Agriculture, with a considerable experience of the sea fishing industry during his period of office and, no doubt, before that.
So far as concerns his particular reference to the possibliity of a debate in your Lordships' House on the fishing industry, I shall pass this suggestion on through the usual channels, but I expect that the noble Lord will take his own course of action, either by himself putting down a Motion for debate or by making some other provision for it—and I know your Lordships' House will welcome a debate on a subject which has not been considered for some little time. To conclude my remarks on this order, my Lords, I warmly welcome what the noble Lord has said and commend the order to your Lordships.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

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  IMMIGRATION APPEAL TRIBUNAL AND ADJUDICATORS
  IMMIGRATION APPEAL TRIBUNAL AND ADJUDICATORS
  PRISONERS: TRANSFERS TO SPECIAL HOSPITALS
  PRISONERS: TRANSFERS TO SPECIAL HOSPITALS
  PRISONERS: SEGREGATION UNDER RULE 43
  PRISONERS: SEGREGATION UNDER RULE 43
  PARKHURST PRISON: "C" WING STUDY
  PARKHURST PRISON: "C" WING STUDY
  PRISON COMMUNITY LIFE: RESEARCH
  PRISON COMMUNITY LIFE: RESEARCH
  NORTHERN IRELAND STUDENTS: UNIVERSITY STUDY AWARDS
  NORTHERN IRELAND STUDENTS: UNIVERSITY STUDY AWARDS
  NHS: IN-PATIENTS AND OUT-PATIENTS
  NHS: IN-PATIENTS AND OUT-PATIENTS
  BANGLADESH: AID AND COMMERCE
  BANGLADESH: AID AND COMMERCE
  POLITICAL PRISONERS: DISAPPEARANCES
  POLITICAL PRISONERS: DISAPPEARANCES
  THE ASSISTED PLACES SCHEME
  THE ASSISTED PLACES SCHEME
  GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS: AVAILABILITY
  GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS: AVAILABILITY
  WILLOW RESEARCH
  WILLOW RESEARCH
  GOLAN HEIGHTS ANNEXATION: UN RESOLUTION
  GOLAN HEIGHTS ANNEXATION: UN RESOLUTION
  COMMUNICATIONS: UNESCO DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME
  COMMUNICATIONS: UNESCO DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME