Sitting of 11 March 1981

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
LLOYDS BANK BILL (By Order)
Read the Third time and passed.

Oral Answers to Questions
  SCOTLAND

    Custodial Sentences
    Mr. Ron Brownasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many people received custodial sentences in Scotland in 1980; and how this compares with the figures for 1979.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): In 1979, 8,863 people received direct custodial sentences from the Scottish courts; a further 6,027 were received into prisons or young offenders' institutions in default of payment of a fine. These numbers are abnormally low in comparasion with earlier years because of industrial action by court staff in 1979. Corresponding figures for 1980 are not yet available.
    Mr. Brown: My question is partly answered, but does it not show that the Government are driving people to crime? Is not that a direct result of high unemployment and the attacks on living standards? Will not yesterday's soup-kitchen Budget drive people to crime? Is it not correct that the real criminals are in the Government? The working people are angry—and they have every right to be—and they will fight back.
    Mr. Rifkind: I am not sure why abnormally low figures for 1979, because of industrial action, show the effects of the Government's policy in 1981. If the hon. Gentleman has the remotest iota of evidence to support his curious theory, I am sure that not only I but his hon. Friends will be pleased to see it.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that once people are incarcerated in prison they should not escape, and that if they do any inquiry that follows that escape should ensure that people working in the prison service feel that the inquiry has been fair and just?
    Mr. Rifkind: I agree with my hon. Friend. I have no reason to believe that the procedures that are applied whenever an inquiry is needed following a prison escape are not fair and just to all those who might be affected.

    Unemployed Persons (Blairgowrie)
    Mr. Bill Walkerasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any proposals to reduce the level of unemployment in Blairgowrie; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Alexander Fletcher): We are expanding the programmes of special measures for those unable to find employment; industrial development in Blairgowrie is encouraged through its status as a development area; and the Scottish Development Agency is making efforts through its factory building and other activities to attract industry to the area.
    Mr. Walker: I accept that reply, but does my hon Friend agree that Blairgowrie should be considered as a special development area, as male unemployment is presently running at 20 per cent.—
    Mr. Norman Hogg: The hon. Gentleman wants jam on it.
    Mr. Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that if we accept the view that unemployment is caused by Government action, the present situation is a result of the action of the previous Government, because factories in Blairgowrie closed down before we came into office?
    Mr. Fletcher: I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern. He will know that that matter was recently reviewed by the Department of Industry. My hon. Friend the Minister of State wrote to my hon. Friend advising him of the position.
    Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: How does the hon. Gentleman think that small businesses in Blairgowrie and in other rural parts of Scotland will be assisted by the decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put an extra 20p on a gallon of petrol?
    Mr. Fletcher: In his Budget my right hon. and learned Friend took a number of measures that will be helpful to small firms and to employment in Scotland, not least the reduction in interest rates.
    Mr. Lang: How was unemployment in Blairgowrie helped by the recent party political march through the centre of Glasgow on behalf of the Labour Party? Is it not a scandal that that march should cost the public purse about £100,000? Is there any way in which the sum can be recovered to help the unemployed in Blairgowrie and elsewhere?
    Mr. Fletcher: I am afraid that there is no way in which the sum can be recovered. Having to march and demonstrate in the streets is evidence of the lack of a constructive policy in the Labour Party.
    Mr. Ernie Ross: Will the Minister take time today to consider a matter that is relevant to Blairgowrie, namely, the speech in Perth at the weekend by the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland? The Moderator said that any society that condemns young people to inactivity and unemployment is evil. Will the Minister discuss with his hon. Friends how they might set about transforming that society?
    Mr. Fletcher: I have not read the text of the Moderator's speech, but I understand that in referring to press reports of it he said that he had been misquoted.

    Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Glasgow
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to announce a possible date for a public inquiry into the construction deficiencies at the Royal Hospital for Sick Children, Yorkhill, Glasgow.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Russell Fairgrieve): No, Sir. The main aims of the Greater Glasgow health board are to complete the remedial works at the earliest possible date and to recover its costs from those held responsible. A public inquiry would be of no assistance in meeting these aims.
    Mr. Carmichael: Does the Minister realise that there is no attempt on the part of myself or most others to be punitive about this? My reason for wanting a public inquiry is not to recover money but to discover what went wrong, perhaps as a guide to a lot of other public and private building work. Will he reconsider having an in-depth public inquiry on the non-punitive basis that I have suggested?
    Mr. Fairgrieve: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not ruled out the possibility of an inquiry after the arbitration procedure is finished and after the remedial works have been done. At this stage such a move would only prejudice what we are trying to do.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: Does the Minister accept that there is grave disquiet about the length of time being taken to resolve the problem of the Royal Hospital for Sick Children? May I seek a guarantee from the Minister that, whatever happens, ultimately the company responsible for building the hospital will be required to refund money to the taxpayer in Scotland and will not be allowed to keep the money that it has stolen as a result of this disgraceful structure, which was supposed to be a hospital but which is now a tumbledown building?
    Mr. Fairgrieve: I regret that highly emotive and unnecessary language has been used by the Shadow Minister. We are proceeding with the remedial work, which we hope will be completed during next year. We hope that the arbitration decision will also be made next year. We are dealing with a reputable company which is not in the habit of stealing money of this kind. The company has said that it will be bound by the arbitration result. I have no doubt that justice will be done to everyone at the end of all this.
    Mr. McQuarrie: I accept what my hon. Friend said about this issue, but what steps has he taken to have discussions with the chairman of the Greater Glasgow health authority to try to apportion the blame for what happened during the construction of the building? The remedial work is necessary because of inferior workmanship during the construction and has caused great difficulty to the nurses and other medical staff in the hospital.
    Mr. Fairgrieve: I accept some of my hon. Friend's comments. Although we may know what went wrong on this project, we must move by way of arbitration so that we may recover our costs. On this whole problem, my hon. Friend recently asked for a detailed presentation of our controls over hospital building in Scotland, which he saw in the Scottish Office, and which lasted for three hours. Since the end of the Second World War we in
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    Scotland have encountered only three building disasters of this type, which is a far better record than for the rest of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must remind the House that supplementary questions and answers are approaching the length of those that I used to make, and that is unacceptable now.
    Mr. Carmichael: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the nature of the Under-Secretary's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Nissan-Datsun Plant
    Mr. Harry Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why he decided not to include the industrial site at Bothkennar, Falkirk in the list of preferred sites in Scotland for the possible location of the proposed Nissan- Datsun plant.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. George Younger): Bothkennar does not meet fully the criteria laid down by the company, particularly in respect of stability of the site.
    Mr. Ewing: Is the Secretary of State aware that I and everyone else in the Central region will find that answer astonishing? Some of us have the documents that were submitted to the Scottish Economic Planning Department by the company, and, contrary to what the Secretary of State said, Bothkennar meets every one of the 12 criteria laid down by the company. The site stability criterion was added by his Department. Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his answer? Will he confirm that his list of preferred sites was issued without his knowledge, bearing in mind that his junior Minister was sending letters to various hon. Members saying that their sites would be considered as well? Will he confirm that that list was issued without his knowledge, and will he include Bothkennar on that list?
    Mr. Younger: Doubts about the stability of the site at Bothkennar have been raised ever since the early 1970s. There have been detailed investigations by the Institute of Geological Sciences, and a number of reports have been prepared by the IGS engineering geology unit. All of these reports indicated instability from earlier mine workings. The Nissan company has been quite specific that a suggested site must permit installation of plant and press equipment without requiring extensive piling. I can therefore confirm that a wide range of sites in Scotland were considered. A meeting was held with interested parties to decide how the various sites met the criteria, and we had eventually to choose the most likely.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This is a constituency matter. We must move on.
    Mr. Ewing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Local Government Finance
    Mr. John Home Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in exercising his powers under the

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    Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill, when enacted, he will ensure that rate support grant is not reduced to a level which prevents local authorities from fulfilling their statutory function.
    Mr. Younger: The purpose of the provisions to which the hon. Member refers is to enable me to reduce rate support grant to authorities which plan for excessive and unreasonable expenditure in pursuance of their statutory functions.
    Mr. Home Robertson: Since the Secretary of State has already forced up rates in Scotland by about 35 per cent.—
    Mr. McQuarrie: Rubbish.
    Mr. Home Robertson: —as a result of his cuts in the rate support grant, will he accept that he has already reduced the finances of local authorities to a level that makes it most difficult for them to fulfil their statutory functions? Does he accept that it would be monstrous if he were to use the draconian powers of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill to make matters even worse for all concerned, particularly ratepayers?
    Mr. Younger: The hon. Gentleman again is in danger of scoring an own goal. If local authorities had kept to the guidelines that we issued there would have been no need for increases of that sort. Information so far available shows that among the regional councils those under Labour control have published rates increases of 38·8 per cent., whereas the non-Labour-controlled councils have published increases of only 23 per cent. The difference is even greater with district councils. Labour-controlled districts are averaging a 40·4 per cent. increase, whereas those under non-Labour control have produced an average figure of only 11·6 per cent. The hon. Member and his right hon. and hon. Friends ought to be ashamed of those figures.
    Mr. Ancram: Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to point out yet again that the rate support grant is public money that has to be raised by Chancellors of the Exchequer in Budgets, and that past high rate support grants have led directly to the sort of harsh measures produced in yesterday's Budget? Does my right hon. Friend agree that in many cases one council's increased rale support grant is another person's increased petrol price?
    Mr. Younger: I agree with my hon. Friend. If Labour authorities were not being so grossly irresponsible in their local spending, ratepayers and taxpayers would have more money in their pockets.
    Mr. Millan: The Secretary of State is grossly distorting what is happening. Does he agree that the rate increases for 1981–82 will now average over 30 per cent., which is exactly what we forecast, whereas the right hon. Gentleman said that they would be modest? As for the comparisons between Labour and non-Labour authorities, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are hardly any non-Labour authorities in Scotland, particularly in the districts? How does he explain, for example, Tayside's 36·8 per cent. rate increase? Is it not a fact that all these rate increases, particularly at the district level, come deliberately and directly from the massive reductions that he has made in grant, rate support grant and housing support grant?
    Mr. Younger: We now know why the right hon. Gentleman has been so confidently expecting large rate increases. He has clearly been in league with Labour authorities to make these staggering increases in rates. He is wrong in saying that the elevels will be as high as 30 per cent. In Labour-controlled regions they are 38·8 per cent.
    Mr. Foulkes: What about Tayside?
    Mr. Younger: As for Tayside, if the right hon. Gentleman takes last year and this year together he will see that the increase was extremely modest. For the Labour districts, in both years the increases were excessively large. He and his party had better start thinking about that before they become very unpopular.
    Mr. Sproat: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the totally unjustified rate increases by Socialist authorities such as Dundee, Stirling and Lothian are directly responsible for the loss and destruction of thousands of jobs in Scotland, and that they will be responsible for the loss of thousands more jobs this year? Does that not show that those Socialist councils are far more concerned with putting their own dogma of the far Left into practice than with the true interests of their constituents?
    Mr. Younger: I agree with my hon. Friend. There is no doubt that such practices by Labour-controlled authorities are putting large numbers of people out of work. I have forborne from mentioning the councils of Dundee, Stirling, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, which have made increases of more than 100 per cent. Such increases will put many local people in extreme difficulties.

    Scottish Development Agency
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many new factory units and how many square feet of factory space have been built by the Scottish Development Agency since its inception.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcher: Since it was set up in December 1975 the Scottish Development Agency has completed a total of 352 factory units providing over 3·5 million square feet of factory space.
    Mr. Knox: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that those factory units are located in the right positions? In addition, given the economic situation, is he satisfied that the provision of those factory units is suffiently great?
    Mr. Fletcher: Decisions about where the factories are located are largely a matter for the agency. However, the fact that 90 per cent. of the factory units are occupied suggests that the location of those factories is correct. The agency also has to decide how to spend its budget. Both in 1979–80 and in 1980–81 the agency spent more money than ever before.
    Mr. Gordon Wilson: Can the Minister tell us how many of those company-let factories will still be let to manufacturing units after yesterday's Budget? Was his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer prior to the formal unveiling of the Budget to the Cabinet? In view of the ruin and damage that the Budget will inflict on the Scottish economy, what action did his right hon. Friend take?
    Mr. Fletcher: To the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, my answer is"More". To the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, my reply is that that is not a matter for me to answer at this Dispatch Box.
    Mr. Henderson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the building of factories is the single most important task of the Scottish Development Agency? Will he confirm that the agency will not be prevented from continuing to build factories outside the special development areas? In particular, does my hon. Friend agree that the important minority recommendation of the Stodart committee in the matter of industrial developments should be implemented?
    Mr. FletcherMy right hon. Friend is still considering the work of the Stodart committee. As regards the first part of my hon. Friend's question and the location of factories, the agency must have regard to the priorities indicated by the Government and to the Government's regional and industrial policies. Although a programme is being maintained throughout Scotland, the GEAR—Glasgow Eastern Area renewal—Glengarnock, Clydebank, Dundee and Leith areas are being concentrated upon.
    Mr. Douglas: Would the Minister care to say which proposals among those that emanated from the Chancellor yesterday are designed to fill the empty 10 per cent. of those factory units?
    Mr. Fletcher: There are several such proposals. I refer first to the cut interest rates. Secondly, my right hon. and learned Friend is providing an enormous amount of additional aid to small businesses.

    Job Prospects (Bellshill)
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the job prospects for young people and redundant steel workers in Bellshill.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcher: We are giving priority to the needs of young people by the expansion of the youth opportunities programme. For the longer term the prospects for workers in Bellshill as elsewhere depend on the success of the Government's policies to restore our country's economic competitiveness. There are encouraging signs nationally that our policies are taking effect and in Bellshill both Pye TMC and Ferranti are planning to build up their work forces.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Budget will increase unemployment in Scotland to 300,000 and increase unemployment in Lanarkshire—in which Bellshill lies—to 20 per cent. of the insurable population? Does he agree that the Budget is a disaster? In addition, does he agree that the Government must take cognisance of the statement by the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, which the hon. Gentleman claims not to have read? I challenge the hon. Gentleman, because he has read it. If they are not prepared to take note of the Moderator's sermon, the CBI and the STUC, will the hon. Gentleman and all of his Front Bench colleagues resign, in the interests of Scotland?
    Mr. Fletcher: I have already said that the Moderator has made it clear that he was quoted out of context. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that for this year and next year the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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    has provided more than £1,850 million for the steel industry, which plays an important part in the hon. Gentleman's constituency?
    Mr. Sproat: Will my hon. Friend remind the hon. Member for Bothwell (Mr. Hamilton) that in yesterday's Budget the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced something that will be of particular help to redundant steel workers, namely, that their redundancy payments of up to £25,000 will be tax free, and that he intends to change the social security rules to their advantage? Will my hon. Friend encourage the Scottish Development Agency to help them to help themselves, by showing them how to invest that money in small businesses?
    Mr. Fletcher: The SDA certainly has an important role. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his other remarks.
    Mr. George Robertson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Hamilton is in the travel-to-work area of Bellshill? Is he further aware that last week more than 4,100 people were unemployed in Hamilton, whilst there were precisely nine local vacancies on offer at the local jobcentre? Is that not a horrifying indictment of the Government's record and of their policies, which will only be made worse by those spelt out in yesterday's Budget?
    Mr. Fletcher: That fact is a sign of the seriousness of the economic situation. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be thankful that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is tackling these problems with such courage.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Budget made large sums of money available to redundant steel workers and that each family in the land is paying over £140 as its contribution towards payments for redundant steel workers and others?
    Mr. Fletcher: My hon. Friend is right. Members of the Labour Party are always crying out for more public expenditure. They should bear in mind that public expenditure is funded by taxpayers, which my right hon. and learned Friend, unfortunately, had to provide for yesterday.

    Housing Budgets
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what requests he has made to local authorities in respect of the submission to him of authorities' housing budgets for 1981–82.
    Mr. Rifkind: When local authorities were notified of their provisional capital allocations on 22 December they were asked to submit summaries of their housing revenue account budgets for 1981–82 so that final capital allocations could be determined in the light of budgeted rate fund contributions.
    Mr. Johnston: Does the Minister think that the Government were sensible to ask local authorities for their housing budgets in mid-December, when the information that they needed to draw up their budgets was not available until 22 January? How many local authorities responded to the January deadline? Will he ensure that this sort of thing does not happen next year?
    Mr. Rifkind: The link that the Government have introduced between rate fund contributions and capital allocations has resulted in a constructive response from local authorities. Thirty-one housing authorities will

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    receive their maximum capital allocations because they have taken sensible rent decisions. Eleven authorities will receive something between the minimum and maximum allocations. Only 14 authorities will receive the minimum allocation because of their refusal to make a constructive response to rent decisions. Therefore, the Government's policy has worked extremely well.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: Does the Minister agree that according to the White Paper on public expenditure, which was published yesterday, even if Scottish local authorities were to agree to accept the guidelines that were recently laid down by his right hon. Friend and himself, by 1983–84 capital expenditure on housing would fall by a further 34 per cent., or £245 million? Will the Minister quote the passage in the Tory Party manifesto that gave him a mandate to decimate local authority housing in Scotland in this way?
    Mr. Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman might like to read the White Paper properly. If he does so he will see that it draws no distinction between capital and current expenditure in determining future expenditure on housing. As regards 1981–82, those local authorities that respond satisfactorily in terms of their decisions about their rate fund contributions will find that the aggregate of their capital allocations will be broadly equivalent to the sum that they receive for the current year.

    Rates
    Mr. Allan Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest information on the level of rates being decided by Scottish local authorities for 1981–82; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Rifkind: Eight regional and islands councils have determined rates increases of well under 30 per cent. while four are over 30 per cent. Thirteen district councils have actually reduced their rates or maintained them at the same level. A further 21 have increases of less than 30 per cent. and 19 have increases of over 30 per cent.
    Mr. Stewart: I am grateful for that information. Does my hon. Friend agree that that range of figures shows that while there are many responsible authorities in Scotland, there is also a minority of spendthrift, irresponsible lunatics? In particular, will he comment on the situation in my constituency where ratepayers in the Tory-controlled Eastwood district will pay anextra 12½ per cent. while those who labour under the yoke of the Socialist Renfrew district will pay an extra 60 per cent., which has been imposed by a Labour group whose attitude to ratepayers was exemplified by the recent proposal to provide personal car loans at ratepayers' expense?
    Mr. Rifkind: The figures that my right hon. Friend has given show that not only Conservative authorities but those which are non-political in composition have imposed rate increases that are far less than the average. It is almost exclusively Labour-controlled authorities that are imposing intolerable burdens on the public. That distinction gives the lie to the suggestion that somehow it was the rate support grant that put an intolerable burden on all Scottish local authorities.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Does the Under-Secretary agree that the Tory-controlled Grampian regional council has made a severe attack on education standards in the city of
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    Aberdeen, has failed to make adequate provision for the elderly, has savagely increased bus fares for pensioners and concessionary fares, yet has still managed to increase the rates by 11 per cent? Does he agree that that is grossly irresponsible?
    Mr. Rifkind: The ratepayers of every other regional council in Scotland would be delighted with a rates increase of 11·4 per cent. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that he speaks for only a tiny minority in his own region if he objects to the policy of his regional council.
    Mr. Ancram: Will my hon. Friend accept congratulations from Conservative Members on his announcement last Friday that he will legislate to empower councils to reduce rates once they have been set? Will he confirm that that will give certain councils the choice between, on the one hand, continuing to crucify ratepayers and losing public funds as a result and restraining their expenditure, and, on the other, seeing it backed by a proper level of rate support grant?
    Mr. Rifkind: If my right hon. Friend receives the approval of Parliament to reduce the rate support grant for an individual local authority whose proposed spending is excessive and unreasonable, that local authority will have a choice between giving the rate support grant back to the Government and giving an equivalent or similar amount to the local community. We hope that authorities will have the sense to ensure that the local communities will benefit and not suffer intolerable rate burdens.
    Mr. O'Neill: Will the Minister concede that the new clause that he slipped in last Friday will make no difference to this year's rate rises? Is he aware that it is nothing but a smokescreen, and that if he had consulted COSLA he would have discovered that it would be impracticable for such a clause to be put into effect, even if the Bill were passed during the next rating year?
    Mr. Rifkind: I disagree with those remarks. The clause will be of considerable benefit to those local authorities where spending is thought to be excessive and unreasonable. They will have the opportunity of giving the money back to the Secretary of State or giving it to local people. If the hon Gentleman is saying that he will encourage a local authority whose proposed spending is excessive and unreasonable to insist on giving the money to the Government when it could give it to the local community, that will need some explaining to the people of Scotland.

    Fishing Industry
    Mr. Mylesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will convene a meeting of all sections of the Scottish fishing industry so that a common solution to the industry's internal problems can be sought.
    Mr. Younger: I have taken the opportunity on a number of occasions to stress the interdependence of the catchers, salesmen, merchants and processors in particular and I shall continue to do so. As my hon. Friend knows I have frequent contact with the fishing industry.
    Mr. Myles: In view of the delay in achieving a common fisheries policy, will my right hon. Friend continue to do everything possible to encourage all sectors of the fishing industry? In the meantime, will he encourage them to work together for the common benefit?
    Mr. Younger: I very much welcome what my hon. Friend has said. I have heard recent reports of informal meetings of catchers and processors, aimed at reaching a better understanding. I am sure that that is the best way forward.
    Mr. Grimond: Can the Secretary of State say what the next step will be in the negotiations for a common fisheries policy?
    Mr. Younger: I do not wish to anticipate the statement that my right hon. Friend will make after Question Time today with your permission, Mr. Speaker. In the course of his statement he will give the results of yesterday's discussions.
    Mr. Sproat: Does my right hon. Friend share the growing concern of the fishing industry about the use of the British flag by foreign-owned vessels? Has he any evidence that foreign vessels flying the British flag are taking advantage of British grants, loans and quotas? If so, what immediate action does he propose to end that abuse?
    Mr. Younger: I am aware of that problem, and I know that my hon. Friend has been concerned about it for some time. We shall be discussing the matter with the industry in the context of the structures package as part of the common fisheries policy negotiations.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Has the Secretary of State yet been able to respond to requests by the Aberdeen Fish Curers and Merchants Association to meet him or his noble Friend the Minister of State to discuss the problems of the fishing industry?
    Mr. Younger: I have no knowledge of the date that has been fixed, but either my noble Friend or I will be glad to meet its representatives.
    Mr. John MacKay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the problems of the herring fishing industry is that, due to the limited opening of the Clyde fishing, the processing industry is almost disappearing? Is he further aware that the result is that there is no real market for herring during the opening time? Will he consider extending the opening time for herring fishing, to protect the fishing part of the industry and to give the processors the fish on which to work?
    Mr. Younger: I appreciate the problem that my hon. Friend describes. This is the type of matter that we keep under review. But it would not be right to put future stocks at risk to enable us to put right a short-term problem. That outlines and underlines what I said originally—that there is interdependence between catchers and processors, and one cannot look at the interests of one without taking into account the interests of the other.
    Mr. Millan: As it is clear that the settlement is to be delayed further, can the Secretary of State say what proposals he has to provide further assistance to the fishing industry? If such proposals are not to be included in the statement this afternoon, when shall we have a statement about them?
    Mr. Younger: A case was put up by the industry about 10 days ago. As promised, we are urgently examining it. We hope to be able to make a statement fairly soon, but not this week.
    Several hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: When the statement is made later, I hope to call those hon. Members who have not caught my eye on this subject at Question Time.

    Civil Engineering Industry
    Mr. Maxtonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next intends to meet representatives of the civil engineering industry in Scotland to discuss the current situation in that industry.
    Mr. Rifkind: My right hon. Friend and I met the newly formed Scottish Construction Industry Group, on which the civil engineering industry is represented, last month to discuss the state of the industry, including civil engineering aspects. We undertook that further meetings would be arranged as necessary.
    Mr. Maxton: Did the industry inform the Minister that 95 per cent. of its work depends upon public sector spending? Is he aware that if there is not a dramatic increase in the amount of money that the Government are prepared to spend on civil engineering projects there will be increasing unemployment and redundancies, and the physical structure of the country in terms of sewerage, water works, roads, railways and so on will be on the verge of collapse within the next two or three years?
    Mr. Rifkind: It is generally accepted that when there is a recession the construction industry is one of the first to feel the effects, but, equally, when the recession is over the construction industry tends to benefit sooner than other sectors of the economy. I have no doubt that that will happen now in the way that all hon. Members would wish to see it happen.
    Mr. Allan Stewart: Will my hon. Friend congratulate the industry on its initiative in setting up the Scottish Construction Industry Group, and does he agree that yesterday's announcement about changes in development land tax and the industrial building allowance will be of substantial benefit to the industry?
    Mr. Rifkind: I agree with my hon. Friend that the new group will be a great advantage in the industry's relations with the Government and local authorities. I agree that the changes in the Budget will have a desirable effect, as will any change in the mortgage rate. That will have a significant and beneficial effect on potential house building in Scotland.
    Mr. Maclennan: Has the Minister noticed the estimate of Mr. Sandy Shand, the president of the Federation of Civil Engineering Constructors, that 274,000 employees of the construction industry are out of work at present? In the light of the need to improve the basic infrastructure of our country to provide for the ultimate industrial revival, will the Government now initiate a major public investment programme?
    Mr. Rifkind: As the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) said earlier, the construction industry depends to a large extent upon public expenditure. It is inevitable that at any time when public expenditure has been reduced, such as under the Labour Government, or under the present Administration, the construction industry will not benefit as a consequence of that policy. That cannot be avoided at a time when the general economic interests of the country require constraints on public expenditure.

    Long-term Unemployed Persons
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the rapidly growing numbers of the long-term unemployed in Scotland.
    Mr. Younger: I share the hon. Member's concern about the increasing numbers of people in Scotland who have been out of work for some time. The expanded community enterprise programme will make a useful contribution towards alleviating the worst problems of the long-term unemployed, but the best solution is the creation of new jobs in the growth industries of the future. The Government's policy is firmly directed to that end.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the number of consistently long-term unemployed—those unemployed for more than 52 weeks—has increased from 3,000 in the previous year to more than 14,000 in the year to January 1981, and that this situation is likely to get progressively worse as a result of the disastrous Budget yesterday? Does he also agree that, using any yardstick that he wishes, the Scottish economy is worse off now than it was when the Government started out two years ago, and that it is likely to get worse still in the next 12 months? What on earth is the right hon. Gentleman doing to prevent the Chancellor of the Exchequer from pursuing his criminal activity?
    Mr. Younger: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there has been a serious increase in the numbers of long term unemployed, but I do not agree with what he said about the Budget. However, I did not expect the hon. Gentleman to be sceptical about the importance of and success in getting new industries to replace the old, because within a few miles of his constituency there is General Instruments at Glenrothes, Nimslo at Dundee, Shell-Esso at Moss Morran, Sinclair Electronics at Dundee, and at Glenrothes, Jackson Davies Engineering, Beckmann Instruments and WSK Electrical, providing over 2,500 jobs in the long term and many more in the construction phase. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would be pleased about that.
    Mr. Bill Walker: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government cannot continue to spend thousands of millions of pounds on supporting jobs in British Leyland, British Steel, British Shipbuilders and British Rail, to mention but a few, and make that same money available to maintain other jobs? It just does not make any sense.
    Mr. Younger: Yes. It is worth remembering that all money that is spent—one hopes usefully spent—on keeping important industries going at a difficult time has to come from someone else. It is the consequence of raising the money from someone else that the Labour Party has to face.
    Mr. Foulkes: Will the Secretary of State tell the long-term unemployed and the 200 constituents of his and mine who are about to be made redundant by the Scottish Stamping works in Ayr when they will be able to get jobs again, and in which of these growth industries in Ayrshire they will get them?
    Mr. Younger: I note what the hon. Gentleman said. I share his concern about the impending redundancies at Scottish Stamping. I dare say that the people concerned
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    might be able to get jobs at the expanding industries of Digital, Caledonian Airmotive and British Aerospace, all of which are expanding their employment.
    Mr. Gordon Wilson: In view of the effect of the Budget on the long-term unemployed, will the Secretary of State answer the question that his hon. Friend refused to answer—namely, what participation did he have in the preparation of the Budget prior to its being unveiled in the Cabinet, because Scotland's interests seem to have been overlooked?
    Mr. Younger: It does not seem anything of the kind. Scotland, more than any other part of the United Kingdom, depends upon the recovery of the United Kingdom's economy as a while. As the hon. Gentleman will know, that is what my right hon. and learned Friend's strategy is designed to achieve.
    Mr. Lang: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the greatest single cause of high unemployment is high inflation? Does he therefore agree that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was right to concentrate on defeating inflation as the top priority of his budget?
    Mr. Younger: Yes. My hon. Friend is perfectly right in saying that high inflation is by far the greatest evil. The Labour Party must come to terms with the fact that many people have become redundant in recent years because our industry has become uncompetitive compared with its competitors, and the Labour Party bears a heavy share of the blame for that, over many years.
    Mr. Millan: Will the Secretary of State tell us what has happened about the approaches that he was to make to the Talbot company following the meeting that he had with the ad hoc committee? This is now a matter of considerable urgency. We should like to know what is happening.
    How can we accept the Secretary of State's protestations about his concern for the unemployed in Scotland when he supports a Budget which, on the Government's figures published yesterday in the White Paper on public expenditure, will substantially increase unemployment in the United Kingdom over the next few years?
    Mr. Younger: The right hon. Gentleman knows very well, because he is an accountant, or an economist, or both, that the Government's long-term strategy is to make British industry more competitive. Only when British industry can sell its goods more successfully will it be able to recreate employment.
    I have had further meetings with the management of the Talbot company. I raised with the company all the points that were raised with me by the ad hoc committee, and I shall be writing to the ad hoc committee on those matters. The management reaffirmed yet again that, despite any offer, it could see no way of extending production at Linwood beyond the date already announced.
    Mr. Millan: I should like to pursue that point. The Secretary of State took on a commitment to offer to the company some Government financial assistance if it would at least delay its decision to close the plant. What has happened about that offer? What proposals were put to the company by the Secretary of State?
    Mr. Younger: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. I put this forward repeatedly on many occasions at these

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    meetings, including the most recent one, to Mr. Turnbull representing the PSA. He repeated yet again that he could conceive of no sum that would persuade the company to carry on production at Linwood. Eventually, when pressed by me, he said that he supposed that if we undertook to buy every car that was made that might be possible, but obviously that is not practicable.

    A7 (Carlisle-Hawick)
    Mr. David Steelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the light of representations, he will reconsider the need to improve the A7 trunk route from the M6 link north of Carlisle to Hawick.
    Mr. Rifkind: Two major improvement schemes are planned for this section of the A7 in Scotland. An improvement between Damfoot and Newmill is due to start later this year at a cost of £300,000, and a bypass of Canonbie in 1982 at a cost of £7·7 million. Other smaller schemes are also being considered.
    Mr. Steel: Does the Under-Secretary of State accept that what is disappointing in the Borders is that, following the loss of the railway, and now the loss of development area status, there is universal recognition that we need major improvements in communications with the South if we are to attract new industry? Welcome though these minor schemes are, is there not a need to upgrade the whole of this section of the road?
    Mr. Rifkind: The right hon. Gentleman is being a little unfair in suggesting that a scheme costing £7·7 million and the improvement between Damfoot and Newmill are minor improvements. Given the level of traffic that uses this road compared with other roads in Scotland, the Government, by this commitment and other starts that are being considered, have shown that the A7 is being given full recognition, as I am sure any fair-minded observer would accept.

    Irvine New Town
    Mr. Lambieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up an investigation into why Irvine new town is failing to attract new industries in spite of the financial inducements available.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcher: No, Sir. The Irvine development corporation is making every effort to attract new industries, and the new town is doing as well as can be expected in the current world-wide recession.
    Mr. Lambie: That reply will be a great disappointment to the people of Irvine, where unemployment is now approaching 22 per cent. Is the Under-Secretary aware that many of my constituents are beginning to believe that officials at the Scottish Economic Planning Department and at the Scottish Development Agency are boycotting Irvine? Is he prepared to carry out an investigation to see who is to blame for the Irvine development corporation not attracting industry, if it is not the Scottish Economic Planning Department and the Scottish Development Agency?
    Mr. Fletcher: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern, but his criticisms of the SEPD and the SDA are unjustified. About 1,000 new jobs in 20 companies have been created in the new town over the past two years, and every effort is being made to find more. I understand that
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    the number of industrial inquiries received in the period October to December 1980 is almost double—68—the 37 received in the corresponding period last year.

    Unemployed Persons
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many additional people have become unemployed in Scotland since May 1979.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcher: Seasonally adjusted, unemployment rose by 92,200 between May 1979 and February 1981.
    Mr. Canavan: Is the Minister aware that for every week that he has been in his job more than 1,300 people in Scotland have lost their jobs? In view of the fact that the public expenditure cuts and the increased petrol prices announced in yesterday's Budget will destroy thousands more jobs in Scotland, is it not about time that the Minister took the honourable and decent course and resigned from this disastrous Government?
    Mr. Fletcher: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is qualified in, but it is certainly not economics. Although, seasonally adjusted, unemployment has increased by 55 per cent. since May 1979, it virtually doubled while the Labour Party was in power.
    Mr. Henderson: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the nationalised industries took a more responsible view of public money, and if civil servants were not seeking to destroy aspects of this country's security by seeking higher wages, there would be a much better chance of not having further increases in unemployment?
    Mr. Fletcher: My hon. Friend is correct in what he says about nationalised industries. The increases in prices and public expenditure over the past two years have been due largely to the requirements of nationalised industries, not the private sector of the economy.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: Why does the Minister not answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) and tell us how many people have become unemployed? Is the Minister not aware that his right hon. Friend is on record as saying that when he came to power 139,000 people were unemployed in Scotland? In February the figure was 286,000—an increase of 147,000 total unemployed under the stewardship of the Secretary of State and the Minister.
    Mr. Fletcher: I do not know what the hon. Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing) is qualified in, but it is certainly not mathematics. The figure that I gave his hon. Friend for the seasonally adjusted unemployed is 92,200 between May 1979 and February 1981.

  SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND

    Road Accidents
    Mr. Canavanasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland what are the criteria used by the Crown Office in deciding whether or not to prosecute people involved in road accidents.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland (Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn): The decision whether to prosecute or not rests

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    with the procurator fiscal. In exercising his discretion he will consider each case on its merits. His decision will be affected by the sufficiency of evidence and by the extent of damage or injuries. Only if a death occurs as a result of a road accident or if the case is one of particular difficulty will the matter be reported for the instructions of Crown Counsel.
    Mr. Canavan: On the complaint forwarded from Mr. Douglas Donaldson of Thornhill, why did the Solicitor-General for Scotland state that no proceedings were taken against any of the drivers because none of them had any previous convictions, and only after Mr. Donaldson produced evidence that one of the drivers had 13 previous convictions did the Solicitor-General for Scotland state that even that knowledge would not have made any difference to the procurator fiscal's decision not to take any prosecutory action? In view of all the double talk from the Crown Office and the police about this case, will the Solicitor-General for Scotland give a public apology to his constituent and reopen inquiries into the case?
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I am sure that the House will be glad to know that the hon. Member is so concerned about the complaints of constituents of other Members. Mr. Donaldson wrote and informed me that the hon. Member had telephoned him twice to see if he could help. No prosecution would have resulted in the case because there was insufficient evidence, and the information that was available at the time was that neither of the drivers involved had any previous convictions.
    Mr. Canavan: That was not true.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: In fact, that information was inaccurate. However, it does not alter the fact that the procurator fiscal, in the discharge of his discretion, would not have prosecuted, because there was insufficient evidence to do so.
    Mr. Peter Fraser: In a case of causing death by dangerous driving where there is a related charge of driving under the influence of drink, will my hon. and learned Friend say whether any firm policy decision has come from the Crown Office to prosecute those cases in the sheriff court or the High Court? If there is a policy to prosecute only in the sheriff court, will he review it, because there have been some appalling crimes in Scotland? Such matters should be considered by the High Court.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I assure my hon. Friend that these matters are judged on the merits of each case and the seriousness of each accident, and the extent of intoxication is a contributory factor. As my hon. Friend will know, the penalties under the statute vary, and it is important that the case should be taken in the proper tribunal to reflect the seriousness of the conduct that is complained of.

    Solvent Sniffing
    Mr. Bill Walkerasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland if he will issue a circular to procurators fiscal outlining the nature of the offences with which persons involved with solvent sniffing may be charged under current Scots law.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: No, Sir.
    Mr. Walker: I am disappointed. Will my hon. and learned Friend note that there is much concern in Scotland over this matter, and that strong feelings have been expressed at meetings that have been held, particularly in Perth. People are hoping that an easy form of words will be found to describe this type of offence, as was suggested during the Committee stage of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. What progress has been made in that respect?
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I am, as ever, sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend. Unfortunately, there are matters that defy human solution. This is an easy question to answer, but a difficult one to resolve. However, I can give my hon. Friend this assurance. We recently prosecuted for a breach of the peace at common law a person who was sniffing glue. It was only because of a technical failure that that conviction was overturned on appeal. We are more likely to find a solution to this, devilish problem by the application of the common law than by trying to find statutory definitions to prosecute either the supplier or the user.
    Mr. Maxton: Does the Solicitor-General for Scotland agree that most youngsters turn to glue sniffing because they feel a sense of hoplessness in the present economic climate? Surely, the real answer is to solve the social problems, created by unemployment, that make youngsters feel so hopeless that they have to turn to glue sniffing as a last resort?
    The Solicitor-General For Scotland: Since glue sniffing is almost completely confined to persons of school age and at school, I do not see the relevance of unemployment among those who have left. If the premise of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) that a sense of being useless is the cause of glue sniffing, I cannot understand why he has not taken it up himself.

    Crown Office (Staff)
    Mr. Ron Brownasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland what is the current number of staff in the Crown Office.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: Sixty-one, Sir.
    Mr. Brown: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us what he intends to do about the monstrous closed shop that is called the legal profession, a profession that dominates our country and represents wealth and privilege? Or do the Government depend on that profession to enforce laws such as the Employment Act and the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act? Is it not true that the Government depend on those individuals to back up the system that the hon. and learned Gentleman represents?
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: We are lucky to live in a free country in which laws are enforced in open court. The hon. Member should realise that the purpose of what he calls a closed shop in the professions is to protect the clients from the people who belong to that profession. The purpose of the sort of closed shop that the hon. Gentleman favours is to protect the members of the closed shop, regardless of the public.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the Solicitor-General for Scotland say whether the figure that he gave is an increase of a decrease on previous years?
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I am happy to be able to tell the right hon. Member that it represents an increase of one. In statistical terms, that is a 1·7 per cent. increase for an increased work load of 13 per cent. As I said before, that is productivity.

    Criminal Proceedings (Guilty Pleas)
    Mr. Peter Fraserasked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether any improvement has been identified in the number of pleas of guilty tendered at an early stage in criminal proceedings as a consequence of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: The only provisions of the Act in operation which might lead to an increase in the number of guilty pleas tendered at an early stage are those relating to summary procedure and embodied in section 15 of the Act. It is too early to say yet what proportion of intermediate diets are fixed in relation to trial diets and how many of these have resulted in pleas of guilty, as the provision has been in operation for only five weeks and applies only to prosecutions instituted since 1 February.
    Mr. Fraser: Will my hon. and learned Friend give as much encouragement as he can to the use of the new procedure in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act? I know that he is aware that there is some reservation in Scotland about the cost to the legal aid scheme, but it would do much to reduce the cost to the public purse if that line of approach were more readily adopted in Scotland.
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. That line of approach will be helpful, and I am pursuing other lines of approach to ensure that, in both summary and solemn procedure, pleas of guilty are timeously given, so that public funds, public time and witnesses' time are not wasted unnecessarily.
    Mr. John Home-Robertson: Did the Solicitor-General for Scotland or any of his hon. Friends have a dram in the car park at Murrayfield before the recent international, and if they had been charged with so doing, would they have pleaded guilty?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must not advise the Solicitor-General for Scotland to say nothing, but—
    The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I can only say that I do not drink whisky in the middle of the day.

European Communities (Fisheries Ministers' Meeting)
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Peter Walker): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about the meeting of the EEC Council of Fisheries Ministers held in Brussels on 10 March. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, my hon. Friend the Minister of State in my Department and I represented the United Kingdom.
The Council had before it new Commission proposals on various issues including access. On this aspect they were very disappointing, both regarding the 12-mile limit and the need for fishing plans outside 12 miles. I made it quite clear that they were wholly unacceptable to the United Kingdom.
Late in the evening the Dutch President produced a new compromise on access and on quotas. On quotas it differed little from the proposal already made by the Commission which I have acknowledged to be a basis for discussion. On access, it represented some improvement on the Commission's proposals for the area inside 12 miles. However, early on the morning of 11 March it became clear that agreement was not possible and the meeting was concluded. The Council is scheduled to meet again on 6–7 April.
Mr. Roy Mason: We are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that report, though, as he implied, it is very disappointing. No doubt French intransigence is mainly responsible. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are getting worried that a common fisheries policy will not now be determined on its merits and that there is a danger that it will get caught up in trade-offs in the agricultural price review and possibly in the next summit meeting? What assurance can he give the House that that will not be so?
Secondly, it is right that the right hon. Gentleman stands firm on proposals for the North-East Coast, the Irish Sea, North-West Scotland and the Shetland box. Reassurances on those points will be appreciated. Thirdly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those with whom he is negotiating must understand that in the talks the United Kingdom must regain much of what it has lost for British fishermen? Our deep-sea fleet has been slashed and therefore our salvation as a fishing nation depends not only on conservation and fair total allowable catches, which will help our deep-sea fleet, but on a coastal belt of 12 miles exclusivity and dominant preference for our fishermen up to 50 miles.
Finally, the whole industry and Parliament are agreed on those objectives. The Fisheries Council might as well understand that we stand four square behind the Minister in achieving that sort of future for our fishermen.
Mr. Walker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I can assure him that there is no question of any fishing settlement being traded off against any other topic. The industry knows that, and I think that my colleagues in the Council of Ministers are well aware of that fact.
I believe that there is a European fishing policy to be agreed which is advantageous not just to our fishermen but to the fishermen of Europe as a whole. Unless we can
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obtain conservation measures on a sensible and rational basis over all European waters, it will not be in the interests of fishermen throughout the Community.
Naturally, I understand the pressures on other member States, all of which have demands from their fishing industries, some of which they feel conflict with the demands that we consider essential. But the United Kingdom has the biggest fishing industry in Europe and our industry has suffered more from the loss of third country waters than has any other. Our industry is essential. The right hon. Gentleman knows from his many contacts in the industry that no one has worked more closely with the industry in every step of the negotiations than I have.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Now that the Minister has met with this not unexpected degree of recalcitrance, will he take the opportunity to establish the line agreed repeatedly by both sides of the House and of which the House has just been reminded by the right hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason)?
Mr. Walker: I have maintained throughout a line which I believe would have the support of the House, and, what is more, every step that I have taken in the negotiations has had the support of the industry.
Mr. Iain Sproat: Does my right hon. Friend realise that he will have the united support of the fishing industry and its congratulations in refusing to surrender to the French demand to fish up to British beaches? Can he tell us to what extent our other European partners supported the British stand yesterday?
Mr. Walker: Obviously there are various diverse national interests among other member countries. Some countries have no interest in matters that are important to our fishing industry, but I think that there is an understanding. In fairness to the Dutch President, who endeavoured to make a movement from the Commission's proposals, which were totally unacceptable and in no way recognised the basic requirements and needs of our industry, I cannot complain about a lack of understanding and support at yesterday's meeting. I hope that, as a result of that, we shall move towards a settlement at future meetings.
Mr. Donald Stewart: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the apparent attitude of the French makes it abundantly clear that there can be no settlement of the fisheries policy that would not be a monstrous betrayal of our fishermen? Since, under the Treaty, member countries are allowed to plead an overriding national interest, will the Minister now break off negotiations and say that we shall resume the status quo?
Mr. Walker: I remember the right hon. Gentleman making similar noises about the impossibility, because of French intransigence, of reaching an agreement on lamb. I am glad that we reached an agreement which is much to the benefit of Scottish lamb producers and which they applauded. It shows that, with patience and determination, one eventually gets what one wants.
Mr. Albert McQuarrie: Is my right hon, Friend aware that the fishing industry in general will welcome the tremendous stand that he is taking in endeavouring to get completion of the common fisheries policy? The industry will also welcome the fact that my

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right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has chosen to come into the Chamber to listen to the statement. She has consistently said that fishing will not be traded off against anything in the Common Market. As long as that stands, the fishermen will be totally behind my right hon. Friend in his efforts to get an agreed common fisheries policy.
Mr. Walker: The Government have been totally united.
Mr. Michael Foot: That makes a change.
Mr. Walker: I also appreciate the support from both sides of the House. There is a genuine consensus on the importance to the future of our industry of a sensible and sane fishing agreement. I hope that eventually we shall obtain that.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the problems of the industry are so appalling that we simply cannot go on having meetings in Europe month after month and coming back to say"No progress"? How can the impasse be broken except by surrender?
Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman has a great interest in these topics and he will know how, in the past year, the Government have provided double the aid to the industry that has been given in recent years. More recently, we brought forward the review of the financial problems of the industry. That was our suggestion and was not done on the basis of demands from the industry. The Government have shown throughout a considerable understanding of the problems created for the industry. There will certainly not be any agreement on the basis of surrender. I believe that there will eventually be an agreement in the interests of our industry.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Did my right hon. Friend note that the Opposition spokesman, the right hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), did not include the South-West in the areas to which special protection must be given? As it is the area most vulnerable to crossChannel marauding, I ask my my right hon. Friend to pay particular attention to the needs of the South-West.
Mr. Walker: My hon. Friend is right. This is a longestablished and important industry. As my hon. Friend is aware, the talks in which the Minister of State and I have taken part with the industry show our detailed interest in the problems of the fishermen. I assure my hon. Friend that when a solution is eventually reached it will take firmly into consideration the problems of fishermen in the South-West.
Mr. A. J. Beith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Liberal Party strongly supports his refusal of the terms on offer at the meeting? Is he also aware that there is concern in Northumberland about what will happen between the six-mile and 12-mile limit and his attitude to the various claims made? Are these claims confined to herring, or do they extend to demersal species? If they do, will he make sure that they make no further progress?
Mr. Walker: The proposals of the Commission, which were totally unacceptable, included every historic right that had ever been thought of. It moved to one concerning
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pre-accession rights. One of the problems in the North-East is herring, but I have no doubt that we can come to a satisfactory agreement on that topic with the Germans and the Dutch, who have an interest. The demands that we make will be totally in keeping with what I know are the views of the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Michael Brotherton: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that until agreement is reached foreign vessels that trespass in our waters, including French vessels, will be arrested, prosecuted and, we trust, convicted and punished?
Mr. Walker: Quite correctly, in terms of the supervision of our waters, any breakages of agreements and legal positions are duly taken up by the appropriate authorities irrespective of the flag that the ship flies. That has meant a number of arrests of vessels of overseas countries. A totally impartial surveillance of our seas in accordance with the law will continue.
Mr. Robert Maclennan: I support fully the firmness of the Minister at this meeting, but will he indicate, in view of the critical condition of the industry, for which he does not bear full responsibility, whether there is any possibility of bilateral discussions resolving some of the areas of disagreement prior to the monthly meetings? If he is able to identify the road blocks, he may be able to remove them.
Mr. Walker: I agree very much with the hon. Gentleman. I can assure him that no one has tried harder than we have tried in bilateral talks. We have had bilateral discussions with most member States and identified our differences with most of them. We have had a series of bilateral talks with France that resulted in progress in a number of spheres. I hope that a greater understanding will be shown of the realistic requirements of our industry, which I do not think are a breach of the requirements of the French industry, which I am perfectly willing to understand. I hope that as a result of bilateral talks and other diplomatic efforts progress can be made. I am only sorry that proposals suddenly coming forward from the Commission should be rather out of touch with the reality of the situation.
Mr. Barry Henderson: Does my right hon. Friend realise that, while there is admiration for his patience and perseverance in the negotiations, there is also an increasing frustration with the Commission and the Council of Ministers over failure to reach agreement? In view of that failure to reach agreement, can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes to be able to announce the results of his bringing forward the review of the problems of the industry?
Mr. Walker: I can assure my hon. Friend that at 3.30 am today my right hon. Friend and I had a keen sense of this frustration and impatience. We endeavoured to restrain that feeling and will continue to do so until a settlement is reached. I cannot predict any specific time because I cannot speak for Ministers of other nations.
Mr. James Johnson: Is the Minister fully aware of the black mood of despair in all our fishing ports, not least Hull where a meeting took place last weekend? The right hon. Gentleman deserves thethanks of the House for his efforts. We are all behind him. Does he honestly believe that, even after the French

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elections are over, there is any sign whatever of a settlement with the French Minister before the end of the calendar year? Is this possible?
Mr. Walker: Yes, I think it is possible. I personally believe that the genuine requirements of the French fishing industry are not contradictory to the demands and requirements of the British fishing industry. I think, therefore, that there is a basis of agreement so far as the two countries are concerned. That is why I shall continue to pursue this particular course. It is in recognition of the current difficulties of the fishing industry that the Government took the decision to review the current financial scene ahead of time.
Mr. David Myles: While this delay continues, will my right hon. Friend take urgent steps to correct the internal problems within the industry especially in marketing and co-operation involving all sectors of the industry?
Mr. Walker: Talks on internal marketing are going on between the five marketing advisers I appointed and the fishing industry. As my hon. Friend knows, we have set up a joint working party with the industry to look into all the allegations of illegal and irresponsible dumping of imports in this country. I hope that the result of those two measures will help.
Mr. Austin Mitchell: Is the Minister aware that, having given way all along the line, the only objective on which he can now stand firm is the 12-mile exclusive zone? If he adds to that a Scottish or an Ireland box, he is in danger of dissipating the pathetic amount of negotiating capital with which the Prime Minister has left him and also dividing the industries of Scotland and England. Among the vessels excluded from any such box will be Humberside vessels. The effort will fall back disproportionately on the waters traditionally fished by Grimsby fishermen.
Mr. Walker: I find it extraordinary that, in almost all these exchanges, the hon. Gentleman is totally out of keeping with everyone else and always comes up with lines with which the fishing industry in Grimsby disagrees.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. If hon. Members are brief, I shall call those who have been rising in their places.
Mr. John Farr: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the attitude he has taken so far in the talks. May I remind him that, while our own deep-sea fleet has been declining in tonnage, the fleets of many of our partners in the EEC have been expanding? Is he further aware that the prosperity of our deep-sea fleet in Britain is of great relevance to many inland parts of the country in relation to engines and much of the equipment supplied to trawlers?
Mr. Walker: The fishing industry—long, medium and short distance—is a major industry of this country. As an island race with the biggest fishing interests in Europe, it is vital that we reach an agreement that is sensible for that industry.
Mr. Thomas Torney: Does the Minister agree that it is a wish rather than a hope on his part that we shall achieve any success with the French in these long-drawn-out negotiations? While he is wishing,
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the British fishing industry is fast disappearing. Will he, therefore, take positive action now to save what is left of our fishing industry by our taking unilateral action and saying to hell with the EEC?
Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman's views on the EEC are well known and traditional. I heard those interventions week after week when we were discussing lamb. I know that the hon. Gentleman now rejoices at the cheap lamb and the good rewards for British producers that came out of that scheme. I look forward to the hon. Gentleman enjoying similar benefits when we negotiate a fishing agreement.
Mr. Bill Walker: The House and the country will have great admiration for my right hon. Friend and his colleagues in their difficult negotiations in Europe. When next involved in discussions, will he draw the attention of his colleagues in Europe to the unsatisfactory situation that these protracted negotiations are creating in the feeling towards Europe within Britain? This is a matter of growing and great concern.
Mr. Walker: I assure my hon. Friend that I have plenty of opportunity of drawing the attention of my colleagues to no end of matters. The effect on the attitude in Britain toward Europe is one of them. I shall do what he requests.
Mr. John Townend: In view of a male unemployment rate in Bridlington of 20 per cent., is my right hon. Friend aware of how important for that port it is to achieve an exclusive zone? Is he also aware that, while my fishermen support him strongly in his efforts, they feel that it is vitally important for their interests that the exclusive zone be taken southwards from Flamborough Head at least as far as Spurn Head?
Mr. Walker: As my hon. Friend knows, we have been in close consultation with the fishermen of Bridlington. We shall continue to do so until agreement is reached.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Since, despite his valiant efforts, we have still to achieve a common fisheries policy, will my right hon. Friend say what advantage such a policy would have over the United Kingdom having the same sort of fisheries policy as Iceland, together with common conservation policies with the rest of our European partners?
Mr. Walker: Yes, Sir. Understandably we can best obtain rational common conservation policies, which can be genuinely enforced, if we have a common fishing policy. Our fishermen are agreed on that, even if my hon. Friend is not.
Mr. Gavin Strang: Is the Minister aware that the breakdown of the talks, combined with the continued desperate economic plight of the industry, only adds to the fishermen's frustration—a frustration which manifested itself in the recent Scottish fishermen's blockade? Will he assure the House that he will make a statement later this month announcing national measures to help the industry financially and to tackle the problem of cheap imports?
Mr. Walker: We are currently talking to the industry about the financial position. As soon as the talks are completed and the details agreed, I shall make a statement to the House.

Social Security Benefits (Uprating)
3.50 pm
The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement about the increases in social security benefits. The necessary uprating order will come into operation on 23 November next. That and the other uprating instruments will be laid after the Social Security Bill becomes law.
The standard rate of basic retirement pension for a single person will rise by £2.45 a week, from £27.15 to £29.60. The rate for a married couple will rise by £3.90, from £43.45 to £47.35. Other long-term benefits that will be similarly increased include widow's pensions, industrial disablement pensions, non-contributory invalidity pension, and attendance allowance.
The standard rate of sickness benefit and unemployment benefit will rise by £1.85 for a single person, from £20.65 to £22.50, and by £3, from £33.40 to £36.40, for a married couple. The increases in invalidity pension will be somewhat higher; for a single person the increase will be £2.35, taking the pension from £26.00 to £28.35, and for a married couple the increase will be £3.75 a week, increasing the invalidity pension from £41.60 to £45.35 a week.
In calculating the new rates of benefit account has been taken both of the 1 per cent. adjustment provided for by the Social Security Bill, to which the House gave a Second Reading on 24 February, and of the forecast given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, of a l0 per cent. increase in the retail price index between November 1980 and November 1981. As I said on Second Reading of the Bill, I would have wished that we did not have to make this adjustment, but given the very tight constraints on public spending, which the Chancellor emphasised yesterday, we simply could not afford the extra £225 million in a full year that the uprating of benefits would otherwise have cost.
Supplementary benefits will all be increased next November, on the same basis as national insurance benefits. War pensions will rise similarly and a Christmas bonus of £10 will be paid on the same basis as last year.
For public service pensions, earnings-related components in national insurance pensions, and the pensions payable under the old graduated scheme, where there are no standard rates, the same principle of the 1 per cent. adjustment will apply. That will increase existing rates by 9·06 per cent. The same increase will apply to those who receive guaranteed minimum pensions from contracted-out occupational pension schemes.
Last July I told the House that, subject to economic and other circumstances, we would maintain the value of child benefit in line with prices. As announced yesterday by the Chancellor, child benefit will be increased by 50p, to £5·25 a week for each child—a 10½ per cent. rise—a little more than the expected rise in prices. One-parent benefit—the premium paid to lone parents—will be increased from £3 to £3·30 a week. Thus, a one-parent family with two children will receive £13·80 a week, compared with £12·50 at present.
The prescribed levels of income for family income supplement will rise by £7, to £74.00 weekly for one-child families, and the additional amount for each further child will be raised to £8 a week.
892
I am glad to be able to announce, in the International Year of Disabled People, a substantial increase in mobility allowance—from £14·50 a week to £16·50. That is an increase of nearly 14 per cent. and it marks the importance that we attach to that allowance. We are especially anxious to continue to make it possible for as many disabled people as can to lease or buy cars from Motability, and that increase will help to ensure the continuing success of that scheme. The VAT relief on adaptation to cars for the disabled and the other VAT concessions announced yesterday will also be welcomed by disabled people.
I turn to invalidity benefit. The Chancellor made it clear yesterday that it will not be possible to bring that benefit into tax next year, but I am anxious to make a start towards the restoration of the value of that benefit in advance of taxation. I therefore propose to restore the value of the invalidity allowances this November. Those allowances are the sums paid on top of the invalidity pension and depend on the claimant's age when incapacity begins. The cost of restoring the allowances and of the increase in real terms of the mobility allowance, will be met from the contingency reserve. Our pledge to restore the value of the invalidity pension itself when it comes into taxation now stands unqualified.
Rising fuel costs are causing increasing anxiety among needy people, and the Government have every sympathy with the difficulties that they face. Last November we introduced the most generous fuel assistance package ever. We raised annual spending on fuel aid to more than £200 million, concentrated on giving substantial help to those in the greatest need. This year, we aim to protect the value of that advance. Supplementary benefit heating additions, therefore, including the special boost that we gave them last year, will be increased in line with the expected rise in fuel prices between November 1980 and November 1981.
The basic rates of heating addition and the central heating addition will rise from £1·40 a week to £1·65—that is, to £85·80 a year. About 1½ million people will benefit from that increase, including all supplementary pensioner householders over the age of 70, and supplementary benefit householders with children under 5 years of age. The higher rate heating addition will rise from £3·40 to £4·05, or £210·60 a year. More than 400,000 people are receiving that increase, and they include the most severely disabled, who receive it automatically. The increases in heating additions will cost an additional £40 million in a full year, which means that our total spending on fuel assistance will rise to more than £250 million and will benefit more than 2¼ million people.
The cost of that uprating will be about £2 billion in a full year. About £l½ billion will fall on the national insurance fund and the balance will come from the Consolidated Fund. I shall be reviewing contribution rates as usual in the autumn, and any necessary changes will take effect from April 1982. For the convenience of the House I am circulating details of the new rates of benefits in the Official Report, and copies are available in the Vote Office.
This package of measures will bring help to the least privileged members of the community. The increase in pensions maintains our commitment to protect the real value of the pension during the lifetime of this Parliament. The increases in child benefit and the premium for one-parent families fulfil the undertaking to maintain the value of child benefit that I gave to the House in July last year.

893
Those increases and that in family income supplement are an indication of the importance that we attach to family support. The increase in mobility allowance and invalidity allowances for the disabled, and the heating additions for the needy, demonstrate our concern for those hard-pressed groups. Of course all of us on both sides of the House wish that we could do more, but we have to take account of what we can afford. I hope that the House will agree that the measures proposed are evidence of our determination to protect the most vulnerable in these very difficult times.
Mr. J. W. Rooker: It is clear that the Secretary of State has had to grub around for a few crumbs for the least privileged in our society. That is indicated by the fact that this is the first time that a Secretary of State for Social Services is not holding a press conference outside the House following his statement. He will not be available for questioning by the press. Therefore, we must do that job in the Chamber.
What is the probable effect of these benefit increases on the unemployed—in other words, the long-term unemployed who will lose their right to unemployment benefit and will come within the scope of supplementary benefit? What effect will the right hon. Gentleman's statement and the forecast in the White Paper have on them?
The White Paper states that expenditure on social security has been 1 per cent. less in the past year than the Government expected. That being so, why are the Government proceeding with the Social Security Bill, which will cut 1 per cent. off pensions? The right hon. Gentleman has repeated the Chancellor's statement that the rise in prices this November will be 10 per cent. How does that square with the statement on page 124 of the White Paper that the forecast of the rise in prices to November 1981 is 11 per cent.? What percentage are the Government working on for price increases this November? The difference of 1 per cent. is not unimportant. It was a large enough difference to prompt the Government to cut the pension because of the 1 per cent. over-provision.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the changing of the threshold rates for family income supplement. I understand that about three-quarters of the 80,000 who receive family income supplement pay income tax. By how much will that fraction increase as a result of the freezing of the tax threshold rates? Is it his aim that 100 per cent. of those in receipt of family income supplement shall pay income tax? It is clear that the present level of three-quarters must be increased.
The right hon. Gentleman must accept that, if Labour's pension law had not been changed so that the link with earnings was broken, the figure that he announced today for married couples would be not £47·35 a week but £49·40. Those are not my figures; they are the statistics provided by the Library. The Chancellor used as an argument for freezing the thresholds the fact that those at work had had real increases in earnings that exceeded price increases. That was the very purpose of Labour's pension law. It was intended that when earnings increases exceeded price increases the pensioners would share in the increases. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm the figures that have been provided by the Library?
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the single person's pension that he has announced today, coupled with the freezing of the tax threshold, means that over the
894
next financial year a woman aged between 60 and 65 years will receive, in old-age pension, so many weeks at the old rate and so many at the new rate, making a total of £1,460? The tax threshold is frozen at £1,375. Therefore, a woman aged between 60 and 65 will have an average weekly income of £1 55 more than the tax threshold. If income tax is paid at 30p in the pound, that is a tax of 50p a week on the basic old-age pension for women aged between 60 and 65 years. Does that concern the right hon. Gentleman? Did he have any discussions with the Chancellor about the cross-over?
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept—[Interruption.] I do not expect Conservative Members to like these questions, but the Opposition and the country are entitled to some answers. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that notwithstanding the 50p increase in child benefit, which takes account of inflation over the past 12 months, if the value of child benefit were to be restored to its value when the Government took office it would have to be increased by 95p a week and not 50p a week? How much of the 14 per cent. increase in mobility allowance that is above the rate of inflation is to take account of the increase in motoring costs as a direct result of the Budget? The right hon. Gentleman is not giving a real increase in the mobility allowance if the full increase in motoring costs is taken into account.
I accept that this year 52 weeks will pass after the previous uprating if the date is to be 23 November. Could not the Government find it in their heart to bring forward the uprating to 16 November, to give pensioners at least one week back of the two weeks that they stole from them last year?
Lastly, unlike the right hon. Gentleman's description of the 1980 Budget, why did he not describe this year's Budget as a family budget?
Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Bar (Mr. Rooker) would make a very good one-man press conference. I am bound to tell him that I did not understand his question about unemployment. The assumptions on which the cost of unemployment benefit in the year ahead is based are spelt out clearly in the social security chapter of the public expenditure White Paper.
The 1 per cent. adjustment in the level of benefits is currently the subject of debate in Committee on the Social Security Bill. I have made it abundantly clear that the only reason for the adjustment is to retain public expenditure within the limits that the Government require for their overall economic policy.
The latest price increase forecast that the Chancellor gave to the House yesterday of 10 per cent. for November to November is based on my right hon. and learned Friend's latest assessment and takes account of all the changes that he announced in the Budget.
The family income supplement is an important benefit for families in work. It will go a long way to avoid what might otherwise have been the bad effect on incentives of our inability to raise tax thresholds. I do not know the precise number of those who will find themselves paying income tax and receiving FIS. If the hon. Gentleman tables a suitable question I shall do my best to give him an answer.
The hon. Gentleman will know that the Labour Government left behind a very large public expenditure programme and no means to pay for it all. He knows, too, that that Government's commitment to pay pensioners on

895
the basis of the increase in prices or earnings, whichever was the higher, could not be sustained. The Government had the courage to deal with that.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the impact of taxation on those beyond pension age. He mentioned especially women aged between 60 and 65 years. I have had discussions with the Treasury. It is a complicated issue and perhaps I may deal with it, Mr. Speaker, if I catch your eye during tomorrow's debate.
I do not think that the House will favour the hon. Gentleman's snide comments on child benefit. I have the impression that most of the House thoroughly welcomes the increase of 50p.
I am sure that those who depend on the mobility allowance to run a car will welcome the substantial increase that I have announced.
Finally, the date for the uprating of 23 November is precisely in line with statutory requirements.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I call another hon. Member I make it clear to the House that this statement is bound to play a major part in the discussions on the Budget today, tomorrow and on Monday. I shall limit strictly the number of hon. Members whom I shall call to put questions. There is a ballot for notices of motion and an opposed application to introduce a Private Member's Bill to deal with before we proceed to discuss the Budget. If the opposition to the application to introduce a Private Member's Bill is carried to the Division Lobby it will be nearly 5 o'clock before we begin the debate on the Budget. I warn the House that I shall call fewer hon. Members to put questions to the Secretary of State for Social Services.
Mr. Richard Wainwright: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in respect of his Cabinet colleagues in the Treasury he is a very unlucky Minister? Does he accept that he appears to have been bamboozled by the Chancellor into believing that the failure to implement the Rooker-Wise amendment in terms of a single woman retiring at 60 years of age in November 1981 is a complicated issue? Does he not accept the plain arithmetic—namely, that from November the pension of the single woman who retired at 60 and who is not yet 65 years of age will definitely be taxable, even if it is her sole income? Will he be honest with the House and admit that that will be the position?
Secondly and lastly, Liberals, in common with the rest of the House, welcome the substantial sums that are rightly being paid in the form of extra fuel and heating aids for pensioners and the sick. However, if the Government are dedicated to economy as they claim to be, why does not the right hon. Gentleman get his Cabinet colleague, the Secretary of State for the Environment, to increase the miserly insulation grants so that such huge sums do not have to be spent on winter heating?
Mr. Jenkin: The taxation of women between the ages of 60 and 65 is a complicated matter. It depends on whether they have other income and whether they are taxed under PAYE. The hon. Gentleman will know that there is precedent for not collecting small amounts of tax at the tail-end of the year. Of course, I have the matter under discussion with my right hon. and learned Friend,
896
and I hope to say something more about it tomorrow. The heating additions that I have announced will be of considerable help to those on supplementary benefits and family income supplement, who are the most needy families in the land. We give 90 per cent. grants to pensioners for insulating their homes. I hope that the new community enterprise scheme will lend to inproved insulation. I share the hon. Gentleman's view that it is better to help people to save fuel than to burn it.
Mr. Paul Dean: Does my right hon. Friend accept that further freezing of personal tax allowances means that pensioners as well as earners are being asked to make a sacrifice? Does he agree, however, that in the context of a tough Budget his statement, involving an extra £2,000 million for pensioners, and the new measures that he has announced for the disabled, is convincing evidence of the Government's pledge to assist families and to care for the most vulnerable sections of our community?
Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. Even in this difficult year the Government have demonstrated their concern for those who are facing considerable problems.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call three more hon. Members from each side.
Mr. Jack Ashley: I welcome the increase in the mobility allowance and the special cost allowance for the blind, but why did not the Secretary of State take the opportunity to introduce a special disablement cost allowance? Why did he choose only the blind, and neglect those with less publicly acceptable disabilities, such as spastics, epileptics and mentally handicapped people? Does he accept that the public attitude to such disabilities is often deplorable and sometimes neglectful, and that he should have helped that group today?
Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman will know that it has been a complaint of the blind that whereas, over the years, a number of new benefits for disabled people have been introduced by successive Governments, there have been no new benefits for the blind. The doubling of the tax allowance, which my right hon. and learned Friend announced yesterday, will be widely welcomed by the blind and those who speak for them.
Mr. William Waldegrave: Will my right hon. Friend accept the wholehearted congratulations of hon. Members on the Government Benches who wanted child benefit uprated in line with prices? Does he agree that there is, however, bound to be a serious worsening of poverty trap problems as a result of the failure to raise the tax threshold while increasing means-tested benefits in line with prices?
Mr. Jenkin: Nothing that the Chancellor announced yesterday will in any way deepen the poverty trap, if by the poverty trap one means, in the technical sense, the marginal rate of tax on the extra pound earned. Of course, the poverty trap will be affected by the 1 per cent. increase in national insurance contributions, but the House has already approved that. Improvements in family income supplement announced yesterday will help to deal quite effectively with the poverty trap as it affects the low-paid with children.
Mr. David Ennals: In spite of the Secretary of State's suave presentation of his statement, does he not accept that the Government's decision not to protect against inflation the elderly, the sick, those on supplementary benefits and the unemployed will be seen as a cynical attack on the people least able to care for themselves? Does that not fully justify what Help the Aged said yesterday—that it was a mean and spiteful Budget? Had I, when I was Secretary of State, made such a statement, would not the right hon. Gentleman have demanded my resignation?
Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. The vast majority of elderly people understand the economic difficulties that we face and are perfectly prepared to pay their share. They recognise that we gave a pledge to protect the value of the pension over a Parliament and they know that we are honouring that.
Sir Frederick Burden (Gillinghan): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the meanest attack ever made on old-age pensioners was when a Labour Government were not able to pay them their Christmas bonuses in 1975 and 1976? I welcome the child allowance increase, but will my right hon. Friend consider carefully the proposal that as from the middle of next year certain categories of people entitled to the allowances will receive them one month in arrears? Is he aware that many women regard the allowance as part of their weekly expenditure? Will he carefully consider the matter so that they can continue as they have in the past, unless they themselves wish to draw the allowance weekly?
Mr. Jenkin: I am considering carefully the large number of representations that we have had, including a good many that have made precisely the last point made by my hon. Friend. We should never let the right hon. Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals) forget that it was a Labour Government who managed to leave out the peak months of their inflation when they uprated the pension in 1975.
Mr. John Evans: If by the middle of this year the rate of inflation proves to be above 10 per cent., will the Secretary of State uprate benefits accordingly?
Mr. Jenkin: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave a categorical undertaking to the House that if our estimate falls short of what turns out to be the rate of inflation the pension increase in the following year will make up for it. It would be impractical to try to change the level of pension at a late date in the year.
Mr. W. Benyon: In order to assist us properly to grasp the situation, can my hon. Friend tell me, or have published in the Official Report, at what level of earnings a married man with two children will have to be in order to be better off working when benefits are uprated?
Mr. Jenkin: The incentive problem is not the same as the poverty trap. It has always primarily affected families with children. Child benefit will be increased by more than the benefits for those who are out of work. Therefore, for those families the problem will not have got worse as a result of the announcements yesterday. [Interruption.] I am glad to have the support of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), who knows a great deal about
898
these matters. Neither the incentive effect nor the poverty trap has been worsened by the decisions announced yesterday.
Mr. Alfred Morris: Is it not a major injustice in the International Year of Disabled People that countless thousands of the long-term sick and disabled who have to live on invalidity benefit should suffer a cut in real terms in their living standards? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House want him at the very least to excuse invalidity pensioners from the effects of clause 1(3) of the Social Security Bill? The right hon. Gentleman patted himself vigorously on the back for an increase of 14 per cent. in the mobility allowance, but is he aware that we who launched the mobility allowance increased it by 150 per cent. in less than three years? Is he also aware that, while his increase will take place in November, the savage increase in petrol prices has already taken place? Is he further aware that the Spastics Society this year is paying £¼ million in value added tax and that other voluntary organisations are carrying even more grievous burdens, while he is asking them to do much more than they are doing? What action is he taking to help voluntary organisations?
Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman asked a number of questions. Perhaps I may say this about the mobility allowance: by next November we shall have increased the mobility allowance by 65 per cent. in two years. I think that that demonstrates the importance that we attach to this benefit. It is certainly widely welcomed. The right hon. Gentleman will also know that last year my right hon. Friend announced a substantial package of tax reliefs for donations to voluntary bodies and to charities, and that this comes into effect on 6 April this year. This should lead—I hope that it will lead—to a substantial increase in the flow of funds to voluntary bodies.
The right hon. Gentleman will also know that the Chancellor announced yesterday a number of specific and valuable reliefs from VAT aimed particularly at helping either the disabled or the organisations that work with the disabled. The right hon. Gentleman should give a little credit where credit is due.
Following is the information:
INCREASED BENEFIT RATES
(The Social Security Act 1975, as amended, is referred to as"the Act"; the Social Security Pensions Act 1975, as amended, is referred to as"the Pensions Act")

PART I BENEFITS PAYABLE FROM NATIONAL INSURANCE FUND

(SEE ALSO PARTS 3 AND 4)

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rale £

Basic component of category A retirement pension* (section 6(1)(a) of the Pensions Act), category B retirement pension*, (section 7 of the Pensions Act), widowed mother's allowance and widow's pension

27·15

29·60

Category B retirement pension* (section 29(7)(a)(i) of the Act)

16·30

17·75

Basic component of invalidity pension

26·00

28·35

Standard rate of unemployment and sickness benefit

Beneficiary' under pension age

20·65

22·50

Beneficiary over pension age

26·00

28·35

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Invalidity Allowance:

5·70

Higher rate

6·20

5·45

3·60

Middle rate

4·00

3·45

1·80

Lower rate

2·00

1·75

Maternity allowance

20·65

22·50

Widow's allowance

38·00

41·40

Child's special allowance

7·50

7·70

Guardian's allowance

7·50

7·70

The weekly rate of graduated retirement benefit payable for each unit of graduated contributions will be increased by 9·06 per cent, from 3·54p to 3·86p.

* An age addition of 25p is payable to retirement pensioners who are aged 80 or over.

The following sums will be increased by 9·06 per cent.:

(a)additional components in the rates of long·term benefits calculated by reference to any final relevant year earlier than the tax year 1981–82.

(b)increases of retirement pensions for deferred retirement under schedule 1 to the Pensions Act.

(c)increases of graduated retirement benefit for deferred retirement under schedule 2 to the Social Security (Graduated Retirement Benefit) (No. 2) Regulations 1978.

(d)increments in guaranteed minimum pensions under section 126A of the Act.

PART 2 BENEFITS PAYABLE FROM CONSOLIDATED FUND (BUT SF.F. ALSO PARTS 5 TO 8)

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Attendance allowance:

Higher rate

21·65

23·65

Lower rate

14·45

15·75

Non·contributory invalidity pension

16·30

17·75

Invalid care allowance

16·30

17·75

Mobility allowance

14·50

16·50

Category' C or D retirement pension*:

Higher rate

16·30

17·75

Lower rate

9·80

10·65

* An age addition of 25p is payable to retirement pensioners who are aged 80 or over.

PART 3 INCREASES FOR DEPENDANTS

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Increase for a wife or other adult dependant of:

Category A or B retirement pension

16·30

17·75

Invalidity pension

15·60

17·00

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is over pensionable age)

15·60

17·00

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is under pensionable age) and maternity allowance

12·75

13·90

Non·contributory invalidity pension, invalid care allowance and category C retirement pension

9·80

10·65

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Increase for a qualifying child of:

Widow's allowance, widowed mother's allowance, invalidity non·contributory invalidity, and retirement pensions, invalid care allowance, unemployment and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is over pensionable age) and child's special allowance

7·50

7·70

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is under pensionable age) and maternity allowance

1·25

0·80

PART 4 INDUSTRIAL INJURIES BENEFIT

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Injury benefit:

(a)beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to increase for child or adult dependant

23·40

25·25

(b)beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase

20·65

22·50

Disablement pension:

(a)beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to increase for child or adult dependant—

Degree of disablement per cent

100

44·30

48·30

90

39·90

43·47

80

35·40

38·64

70

31·00

33·81

60

26·60

28·98

50

22·20

24·15

40

17·70

19·32

30

13·30

14·49

20

8·90

9·66

(b)beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase—

Degree of disablement per cent

100

27·15

29·60

90

24·44

26·64

80

21·72

23·68

70

19·01

20·72

60

16·29

17·76

50

13·58

14·80

40

10·86

11·84

30

8·15

8·88

20

5·43

5·92

Maximum disablement gratuity will be increased from £2,950 to £3,210

Unemployability supplement

26·00

28·35

Increase of unemployability supplement for early onset of incapacity for work:

(a) if on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 35, or if that date fell before 5 July 1948

5·45

6·20

(aa) if (a) does not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 40 and he had not attained pensionable age before 6 April 1979

5·45

6·20

Existing Proposed £

Weekly rate Weekly rate £

(b)if (a) and (aa) do not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 45

3·45

4·00

(bb) if (a), (aa) and (a) do not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 50 and had not attained pensionable age before 6 April 1979

3·45

4·00

(c)in any other case

1·75

2·00

Maximum increase of disablement pension in cases of special hardship

17·70

*19·32

Maximum increase of disablement pension where constant attendance needed;

(a) except in cases of exceptionally severe disablement

17·70

19·40

(b) in any case

35·40

38·80

Increase of weekly rate of disablement pension for exceptionally severe disablement

17·70

19·40

Increase of injury benefit for dependent children

1·25

0·80

Increase of disablement pension with unemployability supplement for dependent children

7·50

7·70

Increase of injury benefit for adult dependant

12·75

13·90

Increase of disablement pension with unemployability supplement for adult dependant

15·60

17·00

Widow's pension:

(a)initial rate

38·00

41·40

(b)higher permanent rate

27·70

30·15

(c)lower permanent rate

8·15

8·88

Widower's pension

27·70

30·15

Allowance under section 70 of the Act in respect of each qualifying child:

(a)higher rate

7·50

7·70

(b)lower rate

1·25

0·80

Maximum under section 91(1) of the Act of aggregate of weekly benefit payable for successive accidents:

(a) beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to an increase in respect of a child or adult dependant

44·30

48·30

(b) beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase

27·15

29·60

Maximum weekly rate of lesser incapacity allowance supplementing workmen's compensation (section 2(6)(c) of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Act 1975)

16·30

17·75

Weekly rate of allowance payable where disablement is not total (section 7(2)(b) of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Act 1975)

16·30

17·75

* or the amount (if any) by which the weekly rate of the pension, apart from any increase under sections 61, 63, 64 or 66 of the Act falls short of £48·30, whichever is the less.

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Age allowance for elderly widows:

Ages 65·69

3·45

3·75

Age 70 and over

6·90

7·50

Adult orphans

27·15

29·60

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 27 MARCH
Members successful in the ballot were:

Mr. T. H. H. Skeet

Mr. Alfred Morris

Mr. Donald Anderson

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Ordered,
That the Trade Descriptions (Origin Marking) (Miscellaneous Goods) Order 1981 (S.I., 1981, No. 121) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Brooke.]

Prisoners' Rights
4.21 pm
Mr. Alfred Dubs: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide a statutory basis for the rights of prisoners and to make those rights enforceable.
I welcome this opportunity to ask the House for leave to bring in a Bill on prisoners' rights. I know that the House is anxious to move on to the Budget debate, so I shall do my best to be brief. Speaking up for prisoners in gaol is never the most popular of causes. Yet I am confident that most people, if they listened to the arguments, would accept that the principles underlying the Bill are fair and reasonable.
Prisoners in gaol are subject to what are known as the prison rules. These are statutory instruments made under the Prison Act 1952. The problem is that prisoners do not necessarily know what the prison rules are. Moreover, even if they know what is in the rules, they are not able to take action to enforce them if they feel that the prison authorities are acting in breach of the rules.
I turn briefly to the main provisions of my proposed Bill. The first is that prisoners in gaol should have the right to know what is contained in the prison rules. They should have the right to know about the regulations which govern their imprisonment in one of Her Majesty's gaols.
Secondly, I believe that prisoners should have the power to enforce the prison rules. They cannot do so at the moment. In a case in the High Court in 1980 concerning the controlled unit at Wakefield prison, it was held by the judge that most of what occurs inside a prison is likely to remain untouched by judicial scrutiny. It is therefore my intention in the Bill to give prisoners the right to take action, through the courts if necessary, to enforce the prison rules. Of course, if that sanction were available to them, it is most unlikely that they would ever have to use it, as clearly the prison authorities would make sure that the prison rules were rigidly adhered to.
There is then the question of contact with solicitors by prisoners. The 1979 report of the Royal Commission on Legal Services said:
"Persons on remand or serving sentences in prisons are at a disadvantage when seeking legal services, because they cannot visit solicitors and there may be some restrictions on then-correspondence"
with their legal advisers.
The proposed Bill therefore provides that there should be no censorship of letters to or from a prisoner and his or her legal advisers. There should also be reasonable facilities for discussion of legal matters between the prisoner and his or her legal advisers. Clearly one of the prisoner's concerns might be that he wished to take legal action against the prison authorities. It seems quite wrong that a prison officer should be listening to conversations or reading letters concerned with such a matter.
There is also the question of what happens when a prisoner is subject to discipline for a breach of the regulations in prison. Where the prisoner is to appear before a board of visitors on a disciplinary matter, the Bill provides that the charges should be made known to the prisoner in advance, that he should if necessary have the benefit of legal advice, and that he should also have a full opportunity to present his case at any disciplinary hearing. Similarly, when a prisoner is on a disciplinary charge

905
before the prison governor, the Bill provides that the prisoner should have advance notification of the charge and a full opporunity to present his case.
Members of the House will know that the classification to which a prisoner is subject has a material effect upon the conditions under which he is held in the prison. If a prisoner is unhappy about whether that classification is fairly or reasonably based, the Bill provides that the prisoner should have the right to make representations about it to the prison governor.
On the question of ordinary letters and visits, the Bill also safeguards the right of a prisoner to receive and to send a certain number of letters and to have a certain number of visits.
I hope that the Bill will also give the House an opportunity to discuss the vexed and controversial question of whether prisoners in gaol should have the right to vote.
Finally, the Bill will incorporate the Bill of Rights of 1688, which makes it unlawful for cruel or unusual treatment to be delivered as part of the punishment of prisoners. At the moment, this cannot be enforced in a court of law. Similarly, the Bill incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights which makes it unlawful to subject prisoners to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
I hope that the House will give me leave to introduce the Bill.
4.28 pm
Mr. Richard Alexander: I, too, apologise to the House for detaining it from considering what is clearly very important business later this afternoon, but I feel that much of the Bill ought to be opposed. It is a workmanlike attempt by the proposer to introduce a measure of reform—much of which I accept—into the penal system. I believe that some of it, however, would undermine the whole working of the prison system, and as such I oppose it.
Perhaps I am old-fashioned, but I believe that the prison system operates on the basis of discipline and obligations during the time that the prisoner is incarcerated. If the Bill were passed, that whole basis would be altered. The prisoner would be wandering around the prison with a fistful of rights in his hand like any employee of a firm. It follows that, in my view, remission is a privilege and not a right. The prison system cannot keep an inmate within it any longer than a judge has sentenced that prisoner to be there. Remission is the most effective sanction that a board has.
I have no objection to some of the proposals—for example, prisoners being entitled to a copy of the rules, or some of the proposals about legal advice. But the proposals for reforming some of the disciplinary matters are, in my view, misconceived. The present system of adjudication is based on the fact that a prisoner is dealt with promptly, in his own interest as much as anybody else's. To insist that a 14-day period should elapse before the prisoner can be dealt with would totally alter that. The prisoner knows the details of the charge because he has already come before the governor and been given them. If he does not, they are explained to him when he goes before the board of visitors.
Most prisoners in fact plead guilty at the adjudication stage. Nearly all of them want the matter to be dealt with quickly. In a category C or D prison, if a prisoner is held
906
incarcerated in close confinement, it really is not possible for that to continue for a period of 14 days. If, for example, there has been an assault on an officer or another inmate, or an attempt to escape, it is not practicable to have prisoners floating about the place until the 14 days have elapsed.
The point to which I take most exception is that solicitors or counsel should be permitted to represent inmates at board of visitor hearings. Adjudications are an. internal matter. As I said earlier, bearing in mind that no additional term of imprisonment can be awarded by a board of visitors than was originally awarded by the judge and that an appeal lies by way of petition to the Home Secretary—in my experience he deals with them promptly—I do not believe that legal representation within the prison at the adjudication stage is appropriate.
The hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Dubs) referred to harsh and degrading treatment. There has been no harsh or degrading treatment in the prison system for most of this century. The Prisons Acts and the regulations made under them make that very clear. If an inmate were to receive such treatment, he would immediately petition and the matter would be dealt with.
I wonder whether the promoters of the Bill have considered the problem faced by the prison officer himself should he be confronted by legal representation on behalf of the prisoner. He, too, must be entitled to have the prosecution case presented by a lawyer, and so it goes on.
Who will pay for this? Presumably the legal aid system. But the legal aid system even now cannot cover some things that we should like to see covered, such as the appearance of a prisoner before a judge in chambers asking for bail or representation of a parent in child custody proceedings. I do not think that that is appropriate.
Much of what is contained in the proposed Bill happens anyway. The hon. Gentleman has not gone through the measure clause by clause, so I shall not either, except to say that the current situation is exactly the same as that proposed in many of the clauses. It is not appropriate to claim that the Bill represents a shaft of light on our prison system.
It would not be appropriate to allow visits from just any person. That would enable the criminal fraternity to carry on its activities surreptitiously. Although the Bill provides that such visits cannot take place if it undermines security, often the damage has already been done. That is typical of the woolly thinking behind much of the Bill. I am happy to commend some parts of the Bill, but other parts, which are dressed up as reform, already take place.
By definition, most people in prisons are villains. Given half a chance, they will manipulate the system, and the Bill gives them that chance. If the measure is passed, the possibility of prison governors exercising discipline through their officers will be very much diminished.
I said at the beginning that I am old-fashioned. Perhaps I am—[HON. MEMBERS:"Hear, hear."]—but I believe in discipline and standards, above all within the prison system. Much of the Bill, if enacted, would diminish that dicipline and those standards, and I hope that the House will reject the motion.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business):—
The House Divided: Ayes 117, Noes 135.

Division No. 98]

[4.33 p.m.

AYES

Alton, David

Lestor, Miss Joan

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Lyons, Edward (Bradf'dW)

Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

McDonald, DrOonagh

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

McNally, Thomas

Beith, A. J.

McNamara, Kevin

Benn, Rt Hon A. Wedgwood

McWilliam, John

Bottomley, RtHonA.(M'b'ro)

Marks, Kenneth

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Marshall, D (G'gowS'ton)

Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

Maxton, John

Brown, Ron(E'burgh, Leith)

Maynard, MissJoan

Brown, Ronald W.(H'ckn'yS)

Mikardo, lan

Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n &P)

Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Molyneaux, James

Canavan, Dennis

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Carmichael, Neil

Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

Cohen, Stanley

Newens, Stanley

Concannon, RtHon J.D.

O'Neill, Martin

Cook, Robin F.

Owen, RtHon Dr David

Cryer, Bob

Palmer, Arthur

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Pavitt, Laurie

Davis, Clinton (HackneyC)

Penhaligon, David

Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd)

Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

Dickens, Geoffrey

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Dixon, Donald

Prescott, John

Dubs, Alfred

Price, C. (Lewisham W)

Duffy, A. E. P.

Race, Reg

Dunlop, John

Richardson, Jo

Eastham, Ken

Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

English, Michael

Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

Evans, loan (Aberdare)

Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

Evans, John (Newton)

Rooker, J. W.

Field, Frank

Rost, Peter

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Sandelson, Neville

Fookes, Miss Janet

Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

Ford, Ben

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

Foster, Derek

Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

Foulkes, George

Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

Freud, Clement

Spearing, Nigel

Garrett, John (NorwichS)

Stallard, A. W.

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Steel, Rt Hon David

Graham, Ted

Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Stoddart, David

Grimond, RtHon J.

Strang, Gavin

Hamilton, James(Bothwell)

Straw, Jack

Hamilton, W. W. (C'tralFife)

Taylor, MrsAnn (Bolton W)

Haynes, Frank

Torney, Tom

HomeRobertson, John

Wainwright,R. (Colnev)

Homewood, William

Watkins, David

Hooley, Frank

White, FrankR.

Howells, Geraint

Whitehead, Phillip

Hughes, Robert (AberdeenN)

Whitlock, William

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Willey, RtHon Frederick

Janner, HonGreville

Wilson, Gordon (DundeeE)

Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

Wilson, William (C'trySE)

Johnson, James (Hull West)

Winnick, David

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Kerr, Russell

Tellers for the Ayes:

Kilfedder, James A.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett and

KiIroy-Silk, Robert

Mr. Clive Foley.

Leighton, Ronald

NOES

Ancram, Michael

Bell, SirRonald

Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay)

Banks, Robert

Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

Berry, Hon Anthony

Lennox-Boyd, HonMark

Bevan, DavidGilroy

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Biffen, RtHonJohn

Lyell, Nicholas

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Macfarlane, Neil

Bottomley, Peter (W' wichW)

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Braine, SirBernard

Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

Bright, Graham

McNair-Wilson,M. (N'bury)

Brittan,Leon

McQuarrie, Albert

Brooke, Hon Peter

Madel, David

Brotherton, Michael

Marlow, Tony

Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n)

Mates, Michael

Browne, John(Winchester)

Mather, Carol

Burden, SirFrederick

Mawby, Ray

Butcher, John

Mawhinney, DrBrian

Carlisle, John (LutonWest)

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Mayhew, Patrick

Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

Meyer, SirAnthony

Chapman, Sydney

Mills, lain (Meriden)

Clark, SirW. (CroydonS)

Montgomery, Fergus

Cockeram, Eric

Morris, M.(N'hamptonS)

Cope, John

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Cormack, Patrick

Mudd, David

Corrie, John

Needham, Richard

Crouch, David

Newton, Tony

Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ.

Page, John (Harrow, West)

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby)

Durant, Tony

Parkinson, Cecil

Eden, RtHon Sir John

Parris, Matthew

Eggar, Tim

Patten, Christopher(Bath)

Elliott, SirWilliam

Pollock, Alexander

Fairgrieve, Russell

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Farr, John

Price, SirDavid (Eastleigh)

Fenner, Mrs Peggy

Rathbone, Tim

Forman,Nigel

Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

Fox, Marcus

Rhodes James, Robert

Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

Fry, Peter

Rossi, Hugh

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Sainsbury, HonTimothy

Glyn, Dr Alan

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Goodlad, Alastair

Shersby, Michael

Gow, Ian

Silvester, Fred

Gower, SirRaymond

Sims, Roger

Grant, Anthony (HarrowC)

Sproat, lain

Greenway, Harry

Squire, Robin

Grieve, Percy

Stainton, Keith

Griffiths, PeterPortsm'thN)

Stewart, lan(Hitchin)

Gummer, JohnSelwyn

Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire)

Hamilton, Hon A.

StradlingThomas.J.

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Temple-Morris, Peter

Harrison, RtHonWalter

Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

Hastings, Stephen

Thompson, Donald

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Townend, John(Bridlington)

Hayhoe, Barney

Wakeham, John

Henderson, Barry

Waldegrave, Hon William

Higgins, RtHon Terence L.

Walker, B. (Perth)

Howe, RtHon Sir Geoffrey

Wall, Patrick

Howell, Ralph (NNorfolk)

Warren, Kenneth

Hunt, John(Ravensbourne)

Watson, John

JohnsonSmith, Geoffrey

Wells, John(Maidstone)

Jopling, RtHonMichael

Wells, Bowen

Knight, MrsJill

Whitney, Raymond

Knox, David

Wolfson, Mark

Lang, Ian

Lawrence, Ivan

Tellers for the Noes:

Lawson, RtHon Nigel

Mr. Ivor Stanbrook and

Lee, John

Mr. Richard Alexander.

LeMarchant, Spencer

Question accordingly negatived.

Prisoners' Rights
  Orders of the Day
    WAYS AND MEANS
    Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [10 March].

    AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but this Resolution does not extend to the making of—

    (a) any amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide—

    (i)for zero-rating or exempting any supply;

    (ii)for refunding any amount of tax;

    (iii)for varying the rate of that tax otherwise than in elation to all supplies and importations; or

    (iv)for any relief other than relief applying to goods of whatever description; or

    (b) any amendment relating to the surcharge imposed by the National Insurance Surcharge Act 1976 and applying to some only of the persons by or in respect of whom the urcharge is payable.—[Sir Geoffrey Howe.]

    Question again proposed.

    Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation
    [Relevant European Community documents: No. 10444180 and the annual report on the economic situation in the Community (1980) and the economic policy guidelines for 1981.]
    4.44 pm
    Mr. Peter Shore: Although we have had in recent years at least one mini-Budget and sometimes two, it is the maxi-Budget that still stands at the centre of our economic debate. The Budget is the hinge that joins the past with the future. It is the occasion when we discuss the accounts of the Government and of the whole economy, and it is the occasion when the Chancellor of the Exchequer is obliged to appraise, as he did yesterday, his contribution to the nation's health, and to reaffirm or change his strategy. It is the occasion not just for the Chancellor to give his Budget judgment but for us to pass judgment on the Budget and the Chancellor. That is a duty and a pleasure that I shall perform later in my speech.
    First, in a kinder moment, may I offer a word of congratulation? After two years of increasing divisiveness in Britain, the Chancellor succeeded yesterday in drawing together all the disparate elements of the nation—unions and managers, TUC and CBI, taxpayers, housewives, pensioners, those who drink, those who drive, those who smoke and newspapers as varied in style if not in ownership as The Times and The Sun. All have been brought together in a great collective spirit of total hostility to what the Chancellor has done.
    The whole House and the country have been swift to recognise the enormity of what the Chancellor did yesterday. The nation has been subjected to a form of collective punishment. Pay packets have been robbed, consumers of drink, tobacco and petrol have been assaulted. The bare minimum has been given to pensioners and social security recipients of all kinds. The plight of
    910
    industry, apart from a few crumbs for small firms, an ill-conceived slock levying scheme and the long overdue 2 per cent. cut in MLR, has been simply ignored. True, the Chancellor has taxed the windfall gains made by the oil companies and the banks. We have no objection to that, except to question why the levy is to fall on bank deposits rather than profits, and why he did not introduce this measure a year ago.
    A great opportunity was missed yesterday. The Chancellor's sins of commission and omission are all the more grievous when we recall, as we must, the present crippled state of industry and the economy. In the past year registered unemployment rose by just on 1 million to the staggering total of 2·4 million; one in 10 of the people in Britain are out of work. Last year national output fell by 3 per cent., industrial production by just under 11 per cent. and manufacturing production by about 15 per cent. in the period December 1979 to December 1980. Construction industry output was down by about 11 per cent. Investment is falling, particularly in manufacturing industry.
    What a spectacle we present to the world. Capital is pouring out of Britain in direct investment and still more in the purchase of shares by our pensions and insurance funds in the enterprises of our foreign competitors, while bankrupt British firms sell off modern machinery at knockdown prices to those same competitors.
    Yet upon this gravely damaged and weakened economy the Chancellor yesterday launched a new and savage attack. First, he massively reduced purchasing power by his failure to index personal tax reliefs, as he was pledged to do by the speeches he made in previous Budget debates and by the clear intent of the Conservative Party's election manifesto. Instead of an uprating of 15 per cent. to meet the December to December inflation rate of last year, he has swindled the nation by allowing no uprating. Thus, in real terms an additional £2,500 million of direct taxation now falls upon the British taxpayer. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition recalled what the Chancellor told the House on 26 March 1980 and I will not repeat it. The disadvantages of not indexing allowances that the Chancellor so eloquently stated only a year ago are just as valid now as they were then.
    Secondly, the Chancellor has raised the whole range of indirect taxes, apart from VAT. If he had valorised their rates, he would have imposed increases of about 15 per cent. and the revenue would have been increased by over £1,000 million. However, he has decided to more than double the rate. An additional £2,400 million will therefore be imposed through increased taxation on alcohol, tobacco and on other indirect taxed commodities., including petrol and the vehicle Excise duty. The tax on petrol and derv will be unwelcome not only to motorists in general, but to industry and above all the rural areas of this country.
    Thus, by those two decisions alone, purchasing power will have been reduced by about £5,000 million. That comes on top of the announcement on 24 November of a 1 per cent. increase, taking effect on 1 April, in employees' national insurance contributions. That measure will remove a further £1 billion from overall personal incomes.
    The burdens have not been equally spread. The failure to index income tax allowances does not produce an equal burden. Its effects are far more like those of a poll tax. Those on low incomes will bear the largest proportion of the rise in their tax. Families with children who receive

    911
    extra child benefit will get their 50p, but that increase, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Social Services know, is only half that needed to restore child benefit to its value in April 1979. The indirect tax increases will not only push up prices but will bear disproportionately on those on lower incomes. The taxes on beer and cigarettes will not be borne equally. Those with the smallest incomes of all—the elderly, the sick and the increasing number of unemployed—are hit directly. They are promised a cut of 1 per cent. in their living standards—a 9 per cent. rise in benefit compared with forecast inflation of 10 per cent.
    Therefore, there is not only a perverse economic strategy in the Budget but a perverse social strategy. Those least well off bear the heaviest burdens. The strategy is as socially unjust as it is economically unjustifiable.
    In today's circumstances, any Chancellor with an ounce of common sense who was not obsessed with ivory tower theories of economic and monetary management would understand that the main need of British industry is for a substantial increase in export and domestic demand, not for a massive curtailment. Yet curtailment is precisely what the Chancellor has achieved. The effects are only too predictable.
    The Red Book published yesterday takes forward the national accounts to 1981–82. As those who have read it will know, the picture for the rest of this year is disastrous. Gross domestic product is predicted to fall by a further 2 per cent. Manufacturing output is predicted to fall by a further 6 per cent. Exports are expected to decline by 5½ per cent. According to earlier Treasury information, investment in manufacturing industry will decline by about 17 per cent. Some pick-up is seen for 1982, but, apart from restocking and a possible fall in the savings ratio, there is precious little supporting evidence for that.
    As most independent forecasts suggest, the prospect ahead is at best stagnation at an appallingly low level of output and, more probably, a renewal of decline. Far more revealing is the Government's expenditure White Paper, which raises the unemployment assumption to 2.5 million in 1981–82 and to 2.7 million in the two subsequent years. Those figures exclude school leavers.
    Therefore, as he knows full well, the Chancellor is presiding over not just a short-term setback to be followed by a revival of employment in output but a continuing and massive decline in the prosperity of this country.
    Against that background and with that prospect, how on earth can the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister justify the continuation of their policies? No excuse is to be found in external circumstances. The second oil shock of 1979–80, unlike that of 1974–75, has led to less violent deflationary action so far by the major trading nations. For much of 1980, world trade held up well—and British exports with it. Further, unlike 1974–75, when Britain had not a drop of indigenous oil, in 1980, alone among the industrial nations, Britain is broadly self-sufficient in its oil supplies. However, last year OECD countries as a whole managed to increase their output by 1¼ per cent. while that of Britain declined by 3 per cent. This year they are expected to achieve a smaller increase of ¾ per cent., while Britain will experience a decline of 2 per cent. Unemployment in the OECD area rose by 3 million last year, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer told
    912
    us in his speech yesterday. However, he failed to tell us that the OECD increase was an average of 15 per cent. while in Britain unemployment rose by 65 per cent.
    The main cause of our disproportionate setback is internal to the United Kingdom. It is the main consequence of Thatcherism, of the blinkered and aggressive monetarism to which this country has been subjected since May 1979. Inflation has been the prime target. It has been squeezed, but employment and production have been nearly throttled. In the Government's pursuit of sound money and in their effort to control the sterling M3 money supply, interest rates last year were pushed to unprecedented levels. Among the most baleful consequences has been an unprecedentedly rapid rise in the exchange rate of the pound. That has acted as a tax on our exports and a subsidy to our imports, the last thing which a trading nation such as ours wants or can afford.
    Yesterday's reduction in the MLR, overdue but welcome as it is, has already been discounted. It is likely to have at best—I doubt whether it will be in the right direction—a marginal effect on the exchange rate. High interest rates have put heavy direct pressures on the costs of British industry. At the general election of 1979, MLR stood at 12 per cent. The net borrowing requirement of industrial and commercial companies was less than half what it is today. Every 1 per cent. increase in the cost of bank borrowing is roughly equivalent for industry to about £350 million per annum. For much of the past two years, therefore, industry has had to carry the burden of additional annual payments, ranging from about £700 million per annum to over £1,700 million at the peak. The effect is all too clear. As costs have increased, profit margins have shrunk. Redundancies, partial closures, layoffs, cutbacks on research and development, cuts in new investment and last year, most massively, the rundown in stocks have inevitably followed from the monetary squeeze. Few firms have escaped. Even the mighty ICI was plunged into loss in the last half of its fiscal year and company liquidations last year reached an all-time high.
    Against those massive losses, what has been the gain? The Chancellor of the Exchequer boasted yesterday that inflation has moderated—that is, from the sky-high level to which the Chancellor pushed it in his first Budget. Year-on-year inflation is now running at 13 per cent., which is nearly what it was when the present Government took office. Some day it might even reach the single figures achieved during the greater part of 1978. If it does, for how long will it be? Industry's profits are now so low that it is bound to seize the first opportunity to restore the profit margin.
    Moreover, through the Government's crass mismanagement of nationalised industries and public sector charges, a wave of new price increases is about to be released. Electricity prices, after the two major increases this year, are due to rise by about 11 per cent. in April. Gas prices are scheduled to rise by about 15 per cent. in April and by a further 10 per cent. in October. The 16 per cent. increase in postal charges in January has yet to come through to the RPI. Local authority rents are due to rise by a staggering £3·30 per week from April, so that the average rent will be about 80 per cent. higher than it was two years ago. Yesterday's Budget has at a stroke added 2 per cent. to the RPI with more to come as the tax on petrol and fuel oil feeds through into prices and as pay pressures increase.

    913
    Clearly the policy has not worked, and its tiny success has been bought at a disproportionate price. The central question for most of us before the Chancellor addressed the House yesterday was whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman had learnt anything from the bitter experience of the past two years. Our hopes were based not only upon the appalling injury that had already been inflicted on the economy, nor just on the Government's obvious failure to achieve their blinkered targets, but on the steady release of information from so many independent sources, including the all-party Select Committee that has devoted itself to studying the theory and practice of Thatcherism during the past year and which completed its report on monetary policy only last Thursday.
    I hope that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister will read that report. They will find little in it for their comfort but a great deal for their education. I draw their attention to just a few of the report's most crucial findings. First and foremost, because it goes to the central tenet of the monetarist's faith, the report concluded:
    "we have not been convinced by evidence of a direct causal relationship from growth in the money supply to inflation … the Treasury's own evidence tends to refute suggestions of any simple relationship in the short and medium term."
    Second, on the optimistic belief that monetary policy would combat future inflation by changing inflationary expectations, the Select Committee had this to say:
    "We conclude that in the light of experience this view is not valid … It is unrealistic to suppose that negotiated wages and administered prices respond rapidly and automatically to announcements about monetary policy, however credible they may be. The influence of monetary policy on wage and price inflation does not therefore appear primarily through the setting of targets or through expectations, but rather in the short term through the lowering of economic activity and the appreciation of the exchange rate".
    Is that not what happened during the past two years?
    What had the Chancellor to say yesterday about this so moderately worded but nevertheless damning indictment? In his mulish, stubborn way he simply dismissed it. Of course, there are now to be a few modifications. But, as he likes to put it, the"central thrust" of the Government's policy is to continue on its ruinous way. Again, targets have been announced—not just for this year but for the next three. And in the midst of the worst recession for 50 years the public sector borrowing requirement is to be massively reduced. It would be ruinous, the Chancellor says, to change course now. The plain truth is that it is ruinous already and that the ruin will only increase if recent policies proceed.
    We are discussing not just a matter of methodology or of economic management but the question of values and priorities. The House should understand what this policy means, above all in human terms. There will be no growth, only decline, in the British economy. Unemployment will rise from the 2·4 million it stands at today to nearly 3 million between now and the next Budget. In a revealing address at the Church of St. Lawrence Jewry the Prime Minister a week ago told us what animates her approach to economic policy. To her inflation is an evil. It is morally debilitating—not just the accelerated inflation of the 1970s, but the gentle inflation of 1945 to 1970 as well. In her words, she puts the demise of inflation
    "at the top of my list of economic priorities. It is, in my view, a moral issue not just an economic one."
    Unemployment is the
    "second and equally great human and economic problem".
    As she put it,
    914
    "of all the difficulties I face unemployment concerns me most of all."
    So there we have it. Inflation is an evil—"a moral issue". Unemployment is"a problem", a major difficulty. And here in this value judgment is a divide as profound as any I have met. Let me tell the Prime Minister that she has got it the wrong way round. Inflation is a great problem, a major difficulty that we must overcome. It is unemployment that is evil and immoral.
    Unemployment involves not just a loss of wealth and waste but the wretchedness that comes from it, the destruction of self confidence and of human dignity. Let the right hon. Lady contemplate for a moment just how many of her fellow citizens face these evils now. One in 10 of our people is today registered as unemployed. The figure would be far higher if women registered as men do. For men the figure is already one in eight. What about our young people for whose moral welfare I have no doubt the right hon. Lady is concerned? For those in the age group 20 to 29, one in seven males is jobless today; for young women the figure is one in nine. For school leavers—those between 16 and 19—almost one in five of the males and one in six of the females are out of work. Has the Prime Minister even begun to understand the individual, the family and the community consequences of what she is doing, and doing knowingly?
    We have heard so often the final justification of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor for all this. They will proclaim that there is no alternative to the course that they are pursuing. They will say that all these injuries are inescapable, that in order to defeat inflation the whole nation must go through this nightmare of monetary misery. However, apart from a small group of her economic Ministers, and, I suppose I had better add, her new economic adviser, and apart from a number of City institutions, virtually no one in the land agrees with them—certainly not the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath); certainly not his predecessor, Mr. Harold Macmillan; certainly not the TUC; certainly not the Opposition; and, now, and most interestingly, certainly not the CBI. The CBI, too, has looked into the future, and what it has seen has appalled it. That is why it has proposed a gradual expansionary build-up between now and 1984–85, a fiscal expansion reaching some £6 billion per annum in the later years. Yet, even if all its proposals were adopted, on its own estimate they would
    "get unemployment down to only 2¼ million by 1985."
    That is some indication of the magnitude of the problem that now confronts us: the deep pit of recession that the Government have dug for the British economy.
    We shall need far bolder action than that, but let me at least state some of the priorities for action now. It will be clear to all hon. Members that the Budget should have made an immediate and powerful attack on the uncompetitiveness of British industry. There is a range of measures that we could take that would help to reduce industrial costs. First, there are fuel costs which for some industrial consumers are higher than they are for industrialists in other trading nations. The Chancellor acknowledged that in his Budget speech, and his decision to reduce the prices of electricity and gas to bulk users is to be welcomed. However, I am not convinced that that covers the whole issue of high energy costs, and I do not

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    understand why the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not accepted the arguments of industry and of the NEDO working party to remove the heavy oil duty.
    The second factor, which for much of British industry has far more relevance, is the national insurance surcharge which at present yields over £3,000 million per annum. In an earlier debate I urged the Chancellor to reduce the surcharge quickly and substantially. I would have wanted it to be cut by one-third this year. If that would have taken too much of what is available, the surcharge reduction should have been concentrated selectively on British manufacturing industry. Thirdly, I should have liked the regional employment premium to be reinstated for manufacturing industry in the development areas and at an effective rate.
    Fourth, and by far the most important, is action upon interest rates. The Chancellor has reduced interest rates—he should have done it long ago—so that they are today no higher than when he took office two years ago. That provides some relief for industry, but we have considerably further to go with MLR. A cut to 10 per cent. and a clear intention of further progress into single figures would have a wholly welcome effect both in reducing the direct cost to industry and the servicing of bank loans and upon the over-high exchange rate of the pound.
    These measures, in their combined effect, should substantially alter the cost competitiveness of British industry. They would make possible a substantial growth in exports and, equally important, enable British manufacturers to displace foreign competitors in our home market.
    Mr. Nigel Forman: One fact that the right hon. Gentleman has not mentioned—it is notable for its absence—is that in each of the last three pay rounds, as my right hon. and learned Friend pointed out yesterday, the pay costs of manufacturing industry went up by 14 per cent., although productivity increased by only 1 per cent. Since much of that took place during the Labour Government's term of office, or was the result of their actions, what practical suggestions can the right hon. Gentleman address to the fundamental problem of competitiveness?
    Mr. Shore: It does not lie with the hon. Gentleman to put that point to me. In my approach to this most important question, I would never exclude the related question of prices. If the Government start out with the proclaimed belief that no agreement is needed on incomes and prices, and if it is said that it is theoretically impossible for incomes to add to inflation—and that is part of their misguided ideology—and if on top of that they heap taxes on expenditure—for example, in the way that VAT was increased two years ago—what response can the hon. Gentleman expect?
    Like all hon. Members, I am aware that with North Sea oil and with the pound as a petro-currency, the exchange rate presents new and special difficulties. We cannot supinely accept, as the Government have done for the past two years, an exchange rate that in no sense reflects the competitiveness of our manufacturing industry and that has inflicted—as the Secretary of State for Trade has been among the first to recognise—great damage on our industry. The matter is all the more urgent, because, although during the past year exporters have done
    916
    remarkably well in maintaining their export share, evidence is growing to show that many firms are now exporting at a loss.
    As the Government know, in its recommendations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year, the CBI heavily emphasised the urgent need to reduce the exchange rate. It recommended to the Government that they should make an explicit declaration to the effect that they understand the need for lowering the exchange rate and will seek to achieve that. That in itself is important, because, as we are all aware, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers have gone out of their way in previous debates to welcome the strength of sterling. They have emphasised only its effect on import prices.
    I also agree with the CBI that the best way to bring this about is to reduce interest rates. But I have no doubt that, if it should prove necessary, it would be right for the Government to instruct the Bank of England to intervene in the foreign exchange market and to use whatever other devices are necessary to that end. Although a return to competitiveness would in itself have welcome demand effects on the British economy, I have no doubt that, given the depth of this recession, a substantial direct stimulus to demand is also necessary. That stimulus will come only from an increase in public expenditure. The question is as to the form that that public expenditure package should take. I should like to see some increase in social security benefits and a full and proper uprating of child benefits so that their real value of April 1979 is restored. I should like to see the full uprating of sickness and unemployment benefits, which were so meanly cut last year, and, of course, the withdrawal of the miserable 1 per cent. clawback from pensions this November.
    However, I entirely agree with those who would place the major emphasis now upon capital investment programmes by the nationalised industries, and by local authorities and central Government. The electrification of the railways is a project which, on merit, is well worth pursuing. There are many more such projects. In addition, there is a clear need for an enhanced housing programme, for hospital and prison building, and for new investment in our ageing water and sewerage systems. A number of road programmes should undoubtedly be brought forward.
    The particular attraction of such public investment programmes is that they would help to bring into employment both men and materials in the construction and building industries, which are now so under-used and in which so many firms face disaster. Moreover, the great merit of this type of programme is that it is nearly 100 per cent. British. The foreign content of public investment programmes and, indeed, of nationalised industry investment programmes is almost negligible. We should also reinforce the special employment measures, with particular attention to training programmes and to the reinstatement of the small firms employment subsidy.
    Sir William Clark: I have followed with great interest what the right hon. Gentleman has said. However, if the Government were to increase public expenditure as he has suggested, the public sector borrowing requirement would increase. The right hon. Gentleman is also advocating a reduction in the minimum lending rate. How does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Government could, in that case, fund the public sector borrowing requirement?
    Mr. Shore: I shall answer that partly by reference to an interesting intervention that was made by the hon. Member for Horncastle (Mr. Tapsell) last time we debated such matters. He asked how the minimum lending rate could be lowered from 16 per cent. to 14 per cent. last November when the money supply was almost double the Government's target and when the public sector borrowing requirement was clearly over-running the programmed level.
    The truth of the matter is that a considerable margin is involved. However, I shall touch on that subject again in a moment.
    Mr. Tim Eggar Mr. Tim Eggar (Enfield, North) rose—
    Mr. Bowen Wells Mr. Bowen Wells (Hertford and Stevenage) rose—
    Mr. Shore: I shall not give way again.
    Mr. Eggar Mr. Eggar rose—
    Mr. Bowen Wells Mr. Bowen Wells rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. We cannot have every hon. Member jumping up.
    Mr. Shore: Last, but not least, I want to see a flow of investment into the renewal and expansion of our manufacturing industries and substantial backing for the growth industries of the future.
    One of the most interesting contributions in the recent CBI medium-term document—which, I believe, is called the"Will to Win"—is the proposal for a new and reinforced industrial strategy. In essence, the CBI proposes that industry and Government should plan for the future and that the great surpluses of our society—and, in particular, North Sea oil—should be channelled into industry and not squandered on the financing of unemployment.
    I acknowledge that there are difficulties in financing the public sector borrowing requirement, but we have done it before, just as other countries have, and we can do it again. The crucial factor is to ensure that the public expenditure or tax reduction measures that will increase it should at the same time increase production and the gross domestic product. That is why we must give strong emphasis to export—and investment-led growth.
    Of course, if economic policy is geared, as it is today, to declining output and rising unemployment, the public sector borrowing requirement will inevitably increase. Measures taken to reduce it, either by new cuts in public expenditure or by new increases in taxation, will reduce industrial output and the gross domestic product still further. Further deflation will then lead to a further increase in the public sector borrowing requirement. Has not that downward spiral been evident in the past two years?
    If economic policy is geared, as it should be, to expansion, the public sector borrowing requirement, apart from the initial impulse of increased public expenditure, will be no higher as a proportion of gross domestic product, because growth generates revenue and, through reducing unemployment, also cuts public expenditure. Indeed, all the forecasts that I have seen show that an increased public sector borrowing requirement is substantially self-financing—provided that it is linked to growth—two years after it has been incurred.
    Mr. Eggar Mr. Eggar rose—
    Mr. Bowen Wells Mr. Bowen Wells rose—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The rule is one Member at a time, or not at all if the right hon. Gentleman does not give way.
    Mr. Shore: I am as aware as anyone, and certainly as aware as the Prime Minister, of the need to face and control inflation. However, the inflation that faces us today, and the inflation that we are likely to face, even given a strong expansion of demand, is still unlikely, given the tremendous unused capacity of British industry, to mount serious pressure on our domestic resources and our domestic capacity to produce.
    The danger, as it has been for many years past, is the danger of cost inflation as wages, salaries and prices in a world of powerful corporations and strong trade unions chase each other and push costs to even higher levels, without increasing real earnings. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister believe, wrongly, that the only way to deal with it is through creating unemployment and diminishing the national output. I believe that the only possible way is to deal with it directly with both sides of industry, cementing with them an agreement on a counter-inflation policy as an essential element in a broader policy for national revival. But let no one have any doubt that there is here a choice. Surely no one, after these past two appalling years, can have any doubt as to which is the better way.
    The central aim of economic policy is the creation of wealth and the expansion of output. That is what Government policy, the Budget, trade and industrial policy and counter-inflation policies are all about.
    I accept that those who will the end of expansion must also will the means. Those means in a modern economy will require not a rolling back of the frontiers of the State but a far more positive and purposive role. That is the only way that we believe Britain should proceed, and that is the very opposite direction to which the Government are driving.
    Mr. Eggar Mr. Eggar rose—
    Mr. Shore: I must give in summary form the judgment that I promised at the beginning of my speech. This is a Budget for unemployment. It is a Budget for the accelerating decline of the industry and the economy of the country. It is a"know-nothing, learn-nothing Budget" that will only compound and reinforce the errors of 1979 and 1980. Undeniably, it is a Budget of failure. Two years ago, against our vehement opposition, the Chancellor set out on his ill-fated and misguided programme for reviving the nation by cuts in public expenditure, reductions in the PSBR, tax cuts to give incentives to those at work and—the keystone in the whole arch of his policy—rigorous quantitative control of the money supply.
    The Chancellor is a leathery character, but he must be blushing at what he had to announce yesterday. The PSBR that was to be reduced to £8,500 million in 1981 turned out at £13,500 million. Public expenditure that was due to be cut by £600 million in fact increased by £1,400 million last year. Tax burdens, taking direct and indirect taxes together, are now substantially higher than at any time during the period of the Labour Government. As for money supply—does the Chancellor remember these words?—it is one of the
    "very few things that the Government actually have within their power to control".

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    It turns out to be not within the range of 7 per cent. to 11 per cent. but at 20 per cent.
    I do not give a fig for the Chancellor's monetary and PSBR targets. I welcome his failure to achieve them because success in such targeting would have caused still greater ruin to British industry. But I care about the real world of economic growth, the level of employment, the balance of trade, the level of inflation and the contentment and morale of our people. Judged both by my criteria and by the Chancellor's self-chosen yardsticks, what a record of failure he has recorded. I devoutly hope, for his own sake but still more for the sake of the country, that this is the last Budget that the Chancellor and the wayward mistress of No. 10 will present.
    5.23 pm
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Leon Brittan): Before dealing with my own theme of public expenditure, I naturally want to respond to the critique of the Budget put forward by the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore). At an early stage in his speech he chose to criticise the lecture given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and stigmatised her, by a selective reading of that lecture, for putting inflation as a priority above unemployment. She did no such thing in her lecture. But the right hon. Gentleman's central error has been to perpetrate a fallacy fundamental to the thinking of Opposition Members—namely, that there is a choice between inflation and unemployment, and that, if one does not mind having a bit of inflation, one can manage to deal with the problem of unemployment. We reject the propositions put forward by the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends because we do not accept that in today's conditions those alternative choices present themselves.
    As I represent a constituency in the North-East I do not need a lecture from Opposition Members about the evils of unemployment. I am perfectly well aware of the human consequences in terms of misery that unemployment brings to individuals and the waste of resources caused by a high level of unemployment.
    It would do credit to the right hon. Gentleman's sense of justice and fairness if he were prepared to accept that if we differ from him in what should be done it is not because we are any less concerned about the social ills affecting the country but because we disagree about the best way of dealing with the problem.
    Mr. Jack Straw Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn) rose—
    Mr. Brittan: I shall not give way at this stage.
    The right hon. Gentleman has put before the House, dressed up in a slightly, but only slightly, novel form, a recipe for fiscal irresponsibility that would be certain to lead to massive inflation which in turn would make the present level of unemployment seem piddling. I say that because the lessons show that. The right hon. Gentleman in essence said that the Budget is highly deflationary and that we can and should safely reflate on a massive scale.
    The right hon. Gentleman wants us to remove the national insurance surcharge which the Labour Government imposed and to put on the regional employment premium which they took off. He wants us to expand and to expand massively. He favours a particular form of reflation which, to the extent that it has any
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    shadow of a cover, lurks behind an ill-defined reinstatement of a prices and incomes policy which has been tried so often and found wanting every time. The lesson surely is that a repetition of Clegg is hardly a recipe for economic success.
    The right hon. Gentleman was saying that, just as reflation would have been correct in the 1930s, so it is today. His condemnation of the Budget is based on the false premise that it is massively deflationary. In fact, faced with increased expenditure arising from the recession and a prospective public sector borrowing requirement of £14 billion, compared with the projected £7½ billion in the medium-term financial strategy, I do not think that it can remotely be described as deflationary to adopt policies leading to a PSBR of £10½ billion.
    Those policies involve a net tax increase next year of £3½ billion, not the larger figure that has been bandied about. It will not deflate the economy further. But it will prevent inflation from rising. The right hon. Gentleman ignored—
    Mr. Shore Mr. Shore rose—
    Mr. Brittan: Perhaps I may proceed to the body of my argument. The right hon. Gentleman ignored the fundamental difference between the problems of the inter-war years and those we face today. The case for a Keynesian expansion in the 1930s was in part that there was no inflation then and little immediate risk that adding to demand would stimulate it. Thus, for a time at least, nearly all the impact of higher spending would be on real output and little or none on prices. Cutting interest rates, which were very low, would not then have helped to stimulate economic activity.
    The argument goes on to the effect that there was an excess of savings over investment at that time leading to the accumulation of idle funds, and that perhaps we could delude workers into accepting real wage cuts because the money illusion would prevent them from realising what was happening to them.
    Mr. Shore: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is making the point that demand management is more difficult in the 1970s and 1980s than it was in the 1930s. Can he explain the point that he made, which absolutely amazed me, that by taking £3½ billion out of demand he is not deflating the economy? What on earth is deflation? How does he define it?
    Mr. Brittan: The right hon. Gentleman has failed to put that figure in the context of what is happening in the economy as a whole which, as I explained briefly, involves the Government spending substantially more on the steel industry, British Leyland and extra employment measures. I am saying that at a time when public spending is increasing, whether we like it or not, it is wrong to regard a change in target from £7½ billion PSBR to £10½ billion PSBR as inflation.
    Mr. Straw: Last year.
    Mr. Brittan: Of course. If I may continue with the analysis that the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) finds so distasteful that it is making him even more restive than normal, the sort of conditions that I have described in the 1930s, in which a strategy of the kind that the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar has set forth might conceivably have been valid, do not apply today. Adding

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    to monetary demand feeds through largely into prices and very little into real output. The right hon. Member should know that from what happened in 1974 and 1975.
    If the right hon. Gentleman does not like that period and suggests that the conditions were different then, let us take it further forward to 1978 to 1980. In that period the growth in monetary demand fed almost entirely through into higher prices. Moreover, again compared with the situation in the 1930s, today there is a general agreement that cutting the high levels of interest rates which have prevailed since the 1950s stimulates real production. The right hon. Gentleman must think that, because he asked us to cut interest rates more than we have already done.
    There is not today an excess of savings over investment opportunities. If anything, there is an insufficiency of savings in relation to the investment needs of industry and of the Government. The money illusion, which played so large a part in the Keynesian analysis, is as dead as the dodo. Unions understandably bargain for real wages, not money wages, and they are quick to anticipate and entrench the inflation that comes with reflation by raising their wage demands in step with expectations about rising prices.
    That problem will not be solved by the shadowy incomes policy in novel dress hinted at by the right hon. Gentleman. In other words, the belief that reflation today would do the trick and painlessly bring back jobs is no doubt profoundly comforting but equally profoundly ill-founded. The events of 1974 to 1976 should have made that clear enough by now. They led to the now classic statement, which I know is not popular in certain quarters of the House, by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) the former Prime Minister:"We used to think we could spend our way out of a recession, but that option is no longer open to us,"
    The right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar has made it clear that he does not share that view. Indeed, he has been quite candid about that. To that extent, the Social Democrats are right in saying that it is not they who have moved, but the official Labour Party. Where that leaves the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) I do not know. Perhaps that explains why he is not here today.
    There is of course—we ought to face it—a more seductive variant for the argument for massive expansion which has substantial support and with which I want to deal. We are invited to embark on a massive programme of productive and highly commercial investment by the nationalised industries in telecommunications, sewerage, railway electrification and so on. It is often suggested that we can finance all this in a particularly painless way with North Sea oil revenues.
    North Sea oil revenues have been known about, forecast and built into the Government's revenue and spending plans for many years. They are already committed. If they were not available, other taxes would have to be higher, public borrowing would be greater or public spending would have to be lower. It is no easier to finance some new project from them than from VAT, dog licences or income tax. It is economic nonsense to suggest the contrary.
    The creation of a special fund with a label round it would make no difference. We still have to decide what to do about: the revenue coming from the North Sea which we have thus diverted. Do we spend less on schools, hospitals or roads? Do we put up taxes? Or do we simply
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    have a high level of borrowing? None of these questions has been faced, let alone answered, by those who see this as an easy route to salvation.
    Mr. Frank Hooley: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Brittan: Perhaps I may develop this point further. Virtually the same point arises when it is suggested that the nationalised industries should be allowed to borrow freely on the market and to spend more in that way. Whether or not such borrowing were to be classified within the PSBR is a side issue. But, other things being equal, it would compete directly with the borrowing needs of productive industry. What is more, it would compete very effectively. With the Government standing behind any nationalised industry as de facto guarantor, lending to it would be highly attractive to investors when compared. with the alternative of buying private sector bonds and debentures. In other words, there would be crowding out: of private investment. We would be substituting additional investment in railways or water for investment in, for example, engineering or agriculture and we would delay the recovery of the private sector.
    If it is desired to avoid the risk of such crowding out and not simply to increase the public sector borrowing requirement, something else will have to give. That would happen if we went down that route just as much as if we went down the North Sea route. What would have to give? The gross addition to the PSBR would have to be offset either by tax increases or by spending cuts. The same questions would arise. How popular would that be? Do people really want cuts of that kind?
    Mr. Hooley: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying that the discovery of North Sea oil and gas adds nothing to the real wealth of this country. It manifestly does. How can he claim that massive expenditure on financing a dole queue of 3 million people is more productive to the real wealth of this country than the same expenditure on the creation of real wealth through the public corporations or, indeed, the private sector?
    Mr. Brittan: I am sorry that I have not made myself sufficiently clear to the hon. Gentleman. I have done the reverse of what the hon. Gentleman has accused me of doing. So far from saying that North Sea oil revenues are of no value, I have said that they are of very great value and that if we did not have them we would have to put up other taxes or spend less money. That is an elementary but true proposition. That is why I believe that the route that I have outlined, which has been seductively put forward in many quarters, is not the real route to our salvation.
    Mr. Robert Maclennan: Referring to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks about crowding out private investment, on the basis of any so far declared investment intentions by private industry, will he explain what investment will be crowded out?
    Mr. Brittan: It is not possible to specify a particular kind. The hon. Gentleman is confusing the general with the particular. One cannot identify it. It is not a case of saying that one particular project would crowd out another.
    Naturally, we are all concerned about the state of the infrastructure and the benefits that improvements to it might bring. All I am saying is that we would be allowing

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    ourselves to be under a great delusion if we were to think that massive improvements to the infrastructure could safely be allowed to go ahead without sacrificing something else, without pushing up taxes and without risking massive inflation.
    If it is said that we should face the prospect of inflation and that a general reflation is feasible in the present conditions, that is an argument that we can meet head on. However, there is no short cut. We should not be beguiled into thinking that we can have it on the cheap.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell Mr. Austin Mitchell (Grimsby) rose—
    Mr. Brittan: No, I shall not give way. I have more to say about public spending, which is the particular responsibility of the Chief Secretary, and which I know is a matter of particular interest to the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell). First, however, I want to deal with two matters that were touched on by the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar that I know caused great concern both inside and outside the House.
    Quite apart from arguing that we should have had what I believe would be a massively inflationary reflation, the right hon. Gentleman attacked the Budget measures as being regressive and socially unjust. Certainly, the Budget seeks a measure of sacrifice from everybody, both as earners and as consumers, to pay for the extra expenditure that has been necessary because of the recession—expenditure which the right hon. Gentleman would like more of, but to which we have in fact contributed in some measure—and also to enable conditions to be safe for interest rates to come down, as they did yesterday, without risking inflation.
    To do all that requires sacrifices. Of course, the effects will vary between households, according to circumstances. However, I remind the right hon. Gentleman of two features of the Budget which, perfectly understandably, he did not emphasise. First, we have taken steps to shelter the most vulnerable people by fully price protecting child benefits and by giving help to the disabled, particularly the blind. Secondly, the decision not to index income tax—that, of course, includes the higher rate bands this year—means that, in proportion to income, the largest increases in the real tax burdens next year will fall on those with the highest incomes. If hon. Members care to study the figures, which are readily available, they will see that that is true.
    There is another matter of concern, namely, the increase in petrol duty. Concern has been expressed about that in a variety of quarters. I shall not disguise the extra burden that it will involve. In my own constituency, which contains both rural and urban areas, I am well placed to know exactly what that means. But it is also right to point out that, after this increase, the tax burden on a gallon of petrol will still be no higher in real terms than it was in the summer of 1970.
    It is worth pointing out, too, not in an endeavour to underestimate the situation but simply to put it in its context, that our prices will be no higher than the average price in the European Community. In my view, it is reasonable to expect the motorist to play his part in securing a soundly based economy. In that connection, it is right to take into account the fact that the increase in petrol duty is broadly in line with that being applied to beer and cigarettes.
    Mr. Robin F. Cook: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the tax burden will fall most heavily as a percentage on those who earn at the highest level. May I draw his attention to the figures? Through the failure to increase the thresholds and through the increase in Excise duties, the loss to a man earning £3,500 is £3·89 per week. The loss to the man earning £15,000 is only £5·69. The percentage effect is a 6 per cent. cut for the low income household, and a 3 per cent. cut for the high income household. Will the Chief Secretary now retract what he said?
    Mr. Brittan: The hon. Gentleman has fallen into the error of comparing the percentage of income with the percentage of tax. Certainly, I shall look into the figures that he gave, but I can assure him that the statement that I made was a carefully considered and accurate one.
    I turn to public expenditure more specifically because it is my particular responsibility as Chief Secretary. I welcome the opportunity to explain to the House more fully than the Chancellor was able to do yesterday the outcome of public expenditure last year and our plans for the coming year and beyond.
    The Government came to power committed to reducing public spending over their period of office. We saw that as being essential if we were to redress the balance between the private and public sectors, about which my right hon. and learned Friend spoke yesterday. It is also essential if we are to control inflation effectively, without suffering excessively high levels of interest rates, with all the damage that they inflict on the wealth-producing sector of the economy. That view of what was needed contrasts sharply with that of our predecessors, as we heard today, and on this occasion the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar does not depart from his pedigree.
    Our predecessors made deliberate plans for spending to grow at a rate of over 2 per cent. a year. They did so, not as a reaction to recession, but as a deliberate long-term act of policy. But while the Opposition call for increased expenditure in one form or another, there are others in the House and outside who criticise us for not cutting spending enough. It is therefore appropriate in the Budget debate for me to try to explain what has happened.
    The broad picture is a simple one. We made the often difficult decisions that were required to cut spending plans. Those cuts have been genuine. They have been implemented. Policies have been changed to achieve them. Measures have been taken to encourage efficiency, and the numbers of staff in the Civil Service and so on have been reduced. Moreover, those cuts have been maintained, in spite of pressure to relax them. Indeed, we made further cuts last November.
    But the cuts have been overlaid by increases in spending in other areas, for the most part, but not exclusively, relating to the recession. The net effect is that spending this year is higher than it was last year, and higher than we had intended a year ago. But for all that, it is significantly below the previous Government's plans. Expenditure in both our first two years of office is estimated to have been 3½ per cent. lower in real terms than the plan we inherited, and our plans for 1981–82 are almost 5 per cent. lower. That is a big change of direction, particularly if one takes into account the long time scale of many public spending plans.
    Some of the cuts have been difficult to achieve but have been wholly beneficial when actually attained. In that

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    category comes the re-negotiation of our contribution to the European Communities, which is expected to result in special refunds of about £600 million in this financial year, and about £825 million in the coming year. In that category also come measures to reduce the size of the public sector, such as council house sales and the special sales of assets. The latter have already yielded nearly £l½ billion.
    Other cuts have reflected changing circumstances. Education expenditure will, in the coming year, be nearly 10 per cent. lower than planned by our predecessors. Spending on public sector housing will be 40 per cent. lower.
    But some cuts have involved making changes which we would not have wished to make if more finance could have been responsibly made available. In social security we had to decide to uprate pensions and other long-term benefits in line with prices only and we made a number of other changes, including the abolition of the earnings-related supplement. Those measures have saved about £½ billion in 1981–82 and are expected to save £1 billion in 1983–84. Even our priority programmes for defence and law and order have had to contribute their share of savings.
    The cuts have in no way been indiscriminate. Those who protest so vociferously against them are profoundly wrong, but I have to tell my hon. Friends who challenged the reality of the cuts that those who protest are not protesting against a mere illusion. Total spending would be much higher without those cuts. However, as I have said, they have been partially overlaid by the increases that we have had to make in other areas.
    Before looking at the nature of, and the reasons for, those increases it is right to ask to what extent the increased spending has come about because of conscious decisions taken in changed circumstances and to what extent they have come about because of a failure of control. The answer is that where the Government can control expenditure directly we have in general succeeded. In the year just ending, cash limits have been largely adhered to. The exception is the expected overspend over the revised defence cash limit.
    Increased expenditure on the nationalised industries was financed from the contingency reserve, specifically set aside to cater for unanticipated or unquantifiable needs. In the case of the expected overspend on the local authorities' current account, the Government have no direct control, but the overspend will be smaller by at least 3 per cent. than it would have been were it not for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment's action in calling for revised budgets, and withholding grant.
    But there is a further factor that has led to increased spending. Within the areas subject to direct or indirect control, an element of underspending is normally anticipated and allowed for in the planned totals. This year, however, spending has been closer to plan than expected. That again is, in part, attributable to the recession.
    Most important of all, there is a significant area where the Government do not directly control total expenditure. In the case of many programmes we determine the rates of benefit or grant, and the criteria of eligibility, but when that is done the expenditure depends entirely on the number of eligible applicants coming forward. Spending of that type can be controlled only by altering the rules and the entitlement, and even then that can often have only a much delayed effect. In the year just ending, in this
    926
    category the benefits paid to the unemployed, the expenditure on special employment measures, and the cost of agriculture support, have all been higher than expected.
    The plans in the White Paper for the coming year show the net effect of the cuts that we have made coming through on a larger scale, being partly offset by the continuation of the upward pressures that have affected expenditure recently. We have to allow for higher spending on many of the categories of expenditure that I have just described. Other increases are the result of deliberate decisions. For example, the nearly £1 billion of extra expenditure on special employment measures and redundancy fund expenditure next year reflects in part the decisions that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced last November. We have increased the limits on nationalised industry borrowing next year by £1¼ billion and have allowed £¾ billion for British Leyland and Rolls-Royce.
    The net effect, set out in the White Paper, shows the planned total for next year at very much the same level as the expected outturn for this year. But there are two further additions not allowed for in the White Paper that will add to the planning total in the coming year.
    The first addition is a substantive one. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor announced yesterday two changes that will add about ⅓ per cent. to the planning total. We have increased the contingency reserve to allow for developments since the White Paper went to print. They include not only the withdrawal of the accelerated pit closure plan but the real improvements in certain benefits announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services earlier this afternoon. We have increased the external financing limits of the electricity and gas industries to allow for the changes in energy prices to industrial customers.
    The second addition is essentially a bookkeeping entry. It will be necessary to adjust the external financing limit of the British National Oil Corporation to allow for the fact that the new North Sea oil tax, and changes in existing reliefs, will reduce its profits. Similarly the limit for the British Gas Corporation will have to be adjusted to take account of the gas levy. Although those will add to the planning total, there is obviously no net effect on the PSBR. The amount of money lost to the Government from one pocket will return to another via the new tax and levy.
    The figures in this year's White Paper for 1982-83 and 1983–84 show substantial reductions in spending in real terms. The House is entitled to ask how, if spending is not to fall next year, it can credibly be expected to fall in the following year, and to fall even more in the year after that. The principal answer to that question relates to the time scale of much public spending. When a change in plans is made, it takes time to reach its full effect. It is for that reason, that our plans presented to the House yesterday are realistic, showing smaller cuts in the earlier years, and larger ones in the later years. For that reason, the plans for the later years can realistically show a significant decline compared with this year and next year. The cuts are only slowly coming into full effect. Some have not yet begun. For instance, the earnings-related supplement to short-term benefits will end in January next, and in other cases they build up steadily—for example, the reductions in housing and in spending on education.
    With regard to spending in the areas where it has actually increased in the past year, future plans take full

    927
    account of the new pattern. They now provide for a much more realistic level of support for employment and industry during the recession.
    None the less it is disappointing that the recessionary effects and other increases have meant that even in 1983–84 we shall not have secured all the reduction in spending that we had hoped for last year, so we shall be having a very careful look in the coming annual survey to consider whether more can be done to offset the increases that have occurred and make more progress towards our original targets over the next three years.
    Mr. loan Evans: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Brittan: No. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I am about to finish. I would have wished, if there had been more time—though I assure the House that I do not intend to do so—to say more about the major improvements in spending control that my right hon. and learned Friend announced yesterday. The move to cash planning will, in my view, have a significant effect in injecting a new air of realism into public spending. The major improvements in spending control go a long way towards securing the expenditure reductions that we have agreed and thus to underpin the fight against inflation. Together with the measures taken to encourage enterprise, to which the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar did not refer, they furnish us with the springboard for economic recovery.
    The Opposition have been full of predictions of gloom. I see no grounds for such despair. In the Red Book the Government's projections for the economy suggest that the fall in output is all but over and that GDP will begin to grow again—albeit slowly—in the second half of this year. I very much doubt whether independent economic forecasters will suggest anything very different—the consensus of their views has certainly pointed in the same direction. The Central Statistical Office's longer leading indicators point to some recovery within months. The CBI and Financial Times surveys of business opinion also suggest that we may be reaching a turning point.
    The problem facing us today is, perhaps, that people's awareness of the economic situation tends to lag behind events. Their pessimism is at its greatest just when it is becoming clear that things are changing. Naturally, they will be sceptical initially. Inevitably, too, the cries for emergency action will be strongest at just the moment when a policy of all-out expansion, as advocated by the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar, would overdo what is in any case in prospect.
    Dr. Jeremy Bray Dr. Jeremy Bray (Motherwell and Wishaw) rose—
    Mr. Brittan: No, I shall not give way. I well remember a not dissimilar situation in 1972. Just as it does today, the case for the expansionery Budget introduced then rested, in large measure, on the fear that the economy would, if such a Budget was not introduced, spiral downwards indefinitely. Yet, as we now know, the spontaneous process of expansion had already set in by the time that that Budget was introduced. We are determined not to make that mistake again.
    6 pm
    Mr. David Steel: It is a great pity that the Chief Secretary moved from his post
    928
    in the Home Office where we had learned to respect the work that he was doing. I find, looking round the Government now, that the minority of the Cabinet that still supports the current economic policy is divided into two sections. There are those, such as the Secretary of State for Industry, the Secretary of State for Trade, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and the Prime Minister herself who actually believe in the policy. They expound it with great conviction. There are those, such as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and, I suspect now, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury who accept their lawyers' brief and plough through it regardless. It is totally unconvincing. If they were honest with themselves, they would join ranks with the majority of the Cabinet who do not believe in it. The Minister for Industry and Information Technology, in a phrase on Monday that took away the breath of the House at the time referred to
    "the dead hand of the British Treasury."—[Official Report, 9 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c. 620.]
    Some hon. Members wondered at the time what he meant. He clearly had foreknowledge of the Budget that the Chancellor was to unveil the following day.
    I want to make it clear from the start that we in the Liberal Party start from a position of basic disagreement with the Treasury Bench about the public sector borrowing requirement on which the Chief Secretary dwelt for so long in his speech.
    It seems to us incredible that the Government start from the proposition that a £10½ billion PSBR next year is sacrosanct when, last year, the forecast of £8½ billion turned out to be £13½ billion. When one considers that of the new sacrosanct target of £10½ billion, the total cost of unemployment—in terms of benefits and loss of revenue—is £8 billion, one can see how foolish that commitment is.
    The Chancellor said yesterday that the Government must borrow less. I wrote down the words he used. The question arises: borrowing less for what? Surely, what matters is the purpose for which the Government are borrowing money. We are indebted to the CBI for hammering away at the fact that, a decade ago, one-fifth of all Government expenditure was on capital projects whereas, last year, only one-tenth of Government spending was on capital projects. Surely, this is what is wrong. It is not that the Government are spending money but that they are not spending money in the right way. It seems contradictory for Ministers to go around the country urging industry to invest in the future when the Government themselves are refusing to do that very thing in the public sector of industry. They do not seem even to accept the economic fact that forward public expenditure of itself will create demand in the private sector, help with the general picture of the economy and reduce the level of unemployment.
    When one looks around the public sector, one sees the need to modernise the railways. One sees the deterioration in the telecommunications industry. It is noticeable to everyone that even the telephone system is deteriorating year by year. One hears the complaints of local authorities about the sewerage system. The evident needs of the road system show the great opportunity that exists for expansion in the construction industry. One sees the need for modernising coal mines in order to close down older mines. All these areas cry out for public expenditure that would benefit this country in the long term, and provide jobs and help private industry in the short term.

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    Where the Government show most criminal neglect is in relation to public spending on energy conservation. There is great scope for helping the long-term structure of the economy by reducing our consumption of energy through encouragement of a massive expansion of the insulation programme in domestic dwellings and public-buildings, not to mention possible public expenditure on schemes such as the Severn barrage.
    The first basic criticism of the Government is that they simply look at the total of public spending without analysing its content. They have failed to embark on the kind of imaginative programme that would have a short-term effect on unemployment and, at the same time, a long-term effect on improving the structure of our economy. One of our basic disagreements with the Government is that, whenever alternative proposals are made—whether by the Liberal Party or anyone else—we are met by the accusation from the Government that we somehow want to weaken the battle against inflation.
    The Chancellor was at it again yesterday. The right hon. and learned Gentleman stated:
    "Some have urged that I should abandon the battle against inflation as our top priority".—[Official Report, 10 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c. 759.]
    No one has urged the Chancellor to do that. It is a figment of his imagination. If proof was required, one has to remember that we now have the Treasury model, the great computer in the sky or wherever it exists, into which everyone is welcome to feed proposals. The Liberal Party, like the Treasury itself, has made use of the Treasury model. We have fed our Budget proposals into the great machine which the Financial Secretary controls. The Treasury Bench can no longer accuse those with alternative policies of inflation-mongering when the Treasury model itself indicates that our proposals are not inflationary. I believe that the Treasury Ministers are the last people to go around tarring everyone with the brush of wanting to give up the battle against inflation whenever we criticise Government policy.
    Even the limited exercise of making use of the Treasury model takes no account of other policies that should be pursued to help to counter inflation. I refer particularly to the need for an incomes strategy—I use the word"strategy" advisedly. Within the concept of incomes strategy, many interesting ideas are now being peddled on incomes policies. As a party long committed to incomes policy, we are willing to look with fresh eyes at the new proposals as they come forward, whether from Mr. Aubrey Jones, Professor Meade, Mr. Phelps-Brown or anyone else. The Government must come to their senses and recognise that, without a change in the structure of wage bargaining and some component thinking on incomes increases in the battle against inflation, they are on the road to ruin.
    The Government rely on the idea that there is a new sense of realism in pay bargaining. Of course there is a sense of realism. People will not press for higher wages if it means that their company will go bankrupt. They will not press for higher wages if they know that the alternative is to join the ever-growing dole queue. That is no solution to what happens when, as even the Government must hope, the economy turns round and instead of men chasing jobs, we have jobs chasing men. They will have done nothing in the meantime to change the inflationary nature of wage bargaining. They simply say that they will rely on
    930
    free collective bargaining. When the upturn comes, if it comes, the floodgates will open again and we shall be back on the same old cycle of inflation.
    I cannot understand why, when the Government are engaged in a fresh exercise to look at the machinery for pay determination in the public sector, they will not open their minds to the fact that for the future health of our economy and sustaining the battle against inflation, they need also to look at various proposals for getting a consensus on the control of incomes. I believe strongly, and my party has long taken the view, that we shall not get an incomes policy accepted in this country unless we change the nature of industrial relations and the climate within which incomes policy is being introduced. A great part of Liberal thinking on incomes policy is that we must devise a scheme that is flexible enough to give employees a share of the value added in their companies so that the process of wage bargaining is related much more directly to the out-turn and improvement in productivity throughout the economy.
    At The Guardian lunch in the Mansion House today the Prime Minister, in an interesting and abrasive speech, said that she found it difficult to persuade people to look beyond next week's pay packet. She will not persuade people to do that by a series of lectures and hectoring. There must be a change in basic industrial attitudes if that is to be achieved.
    The right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) said that wages were rising faster than productivity. That has been said in every part of the House for many years. It is one of the basic, endemic problems in our economy. Until we address our minds to that problem, the Government's long-term economic programme will not succeed. The Government are shutting their minds to that issue. That is why we want to see a massive extension of the concept of industrial partnership—in the structure of companies, the development of profit sharing, the development of wider share ownership, the removal of the anomalies mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) in his speech yesterday and the companies legislation that inhibits the development of co-operatives.
    We want not only the modest investment scheme for new businesses that the Chancellor announced yesterday but a development more on the lines of the Loi Monory in France, where each person is encouraged to invest through tax incentives. That is the way to achieve a climate of opinion in Britain to the effect that investment, productivity, and competitiveness are important. That cannot be preached from political platforms. It must be built into our industrial structure. We want a complete change in the structure of our industrial and economic: framework to create such a climate.
    I turn to my specific criticisms of the Budget. The failure to do anything about the national insurance surcharge is remarkable. The Government are fond of telling people that they have priced themselves out of jobs. I am advised that the cost of national insurance for employers and employees is 21 per cent. of the wage bill. It is the Government who are pricing people out of jobs. The CBI was right to demand a reduction in that area.
    It is astonishing that the Government did not take the opportunity to remove the heavy fuel duty, which is a comparatively low revenue gatherer but which adds to basic industrial costs. The massive increase in the price of petrol, well beyond indexation, was especially surprising

    931
    because of the Chancellor's remarks during debates on the 1977 Finance Bill. At that time we were fighting the imposition of a 5p increase on petrol by the Labour Government. The Chancellor said:
    "This is a selective tax … it is deliberately biased against those who have no option about the method by which they travel to work. It is deliberately biased against those living in rural areas."—[Official Report, 9 May 1977; Vol. 931, c. 937.]
    That was said by a man who in his first Budget increased the price of petrol by l0p and who is now increasing it by a further 20p. The man who objected to a 5p increase has now made a 30p increase. Nothing is more demeaning, not only to the Chancellor but to the whole process of politics, than to have people saying one thing in Opposition and then doing the opposite sixfold when they are in Government. It is also surprising that, given the opportunity to encourage conservation of energy, the Government have picked on mopeds and motor cycles as an increased source of revenue.
    On the failure to index the personal allowances for income tax, it has not been sufficiently stressed that the Chancellor is taking from us an additional 3p on the standard rate of income tax—in other words, he has undone precisely what he did in his first Budget. There was the great claim that the Conservative Party, if returned to power, would reduce income tax. This additional 3p is to be taken in a more illusionary way so that the effect is not as noticeable as putting 3p back on the standard rate. The amount of money is the same, but the method is open to more criticism because it is more regressive. We have already said that some individuals, especially women pensioners, will be brought into the tax net when the pensions are increased in November.
    I do not know why the Financial Secretary should take all the blame for the U-turn. He was not the only member of the Government who was party to the Rooker-Wise amendment. The Minister of State, Treasury served on that Committee, as did the Secretary of State for Energy and the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow)—the Prime Minister's poodle. They all voted for the principle of indexation of personal allowances. I have an even higher authority. The Chancellor must have forgotten what he said to the House in his 1980 Budget Statement. He spoke about the temptation to increase the personal allowances so that they fell some way short of the rise in prices during 1979. He said:
    "this would have a number of undesirable effects. It would lower the starting point of income tax in real terms, compared with a year ago. It would increase the number of taxpayers. It would narrow the gap between tax thresholds and the main social security benefits, and it would impose particularly heavy burdens on those with the smallest incomes. All those effects would be most undesirable."— [Official Report, 26 March 1980; Vol. 980, c. 1474.]
    If it was undesirable in 1980 to index personal allowances some way short of the increase in prices, surely not to index them at all is monstrous. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is not U-turning—he is standing on his head spinning somersaults.
    This is the third Budget in a row in which the Chancellor has increased the overall take of tax from the public. In a telling phrase that comes out time and time again, Ministers say that so-and-so—in the Minister's speech today it was the motorist—must be among those who must be sacrificed to obtain a soundly based economy. Where is the evidence of that soundly based
    932
    economy, for which we are all being sacrificed? What has happened? We remember the election posters on all the hoardings showing great queues of unemployed, and all the Saatchi and Saatchi cinema advertisements. The queues are now twice as long.
    We remember the commitment to reduce taxation, especially income tax. That commitment has been reversed in the Budget. The Government have increased inflation. They claim that it is now coming down, but they put it up in the first place. They have reduced our industrial base. They have created a socially and geographically divisive series of economic measures. They are sticking to their dogmatic monetarism. That policy no longer has any support. The all-party Treasury Committee has denounced it. Half of the Cabinet has denounced it. The CBI has denounced it. Even the Daily Express editorial has denounced it. Where are the Government's friends now?
    A sad feature is that the Opposition are still not putting forward their full programme. The right hon. Member for Stepney and Popular was brilliant in both his criticism and his analysis of the Budget, but he was short on solutions. He put forward one or two solutions with which I agreed, but we did not hear from him the demand that we should make our position much worse by leaving the EEC. We did not hear from him the demand that we should massively extend State ownership, although he made a passing reference to it. His feelings towards an incomes policy were drawn out only through an intervention by a Conservative Member. Nor did we hear from him about the commitment and advice that he has had from the Cambridge School of Economics that the import barriers would have to be 70 per cent. across the board to be effective. I do not believe that there is any future for Britain by going in the isolationist, protectionist, State-controlled direction.
    It is because of a disastrous and failing economic policy from the Government, coupled with the lack of an acceptable alternative from the Opposition, that we must now look for a fresh strategy that involves the spreading of both power and wealth in industry. I hope that that will come from the new grouping in politics. I hope that we shall hear more about that not only from my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) on Monday but from the right hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Rodgers) tomorrow. I believe that that is what the public are demanding. It is what they are entitled to get. I am determined that they shall have that alternative put to them before too long.
    6.19 pm
    Mr. Edward du Cann: Not for the first time I find myself agreeing with a number of the points made by the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel), the leader of the Liberal Party. I shall come to those points in a moment. I agree especially with his criticism of the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), the spokesman for the Opposition. Although he was cheered mightily by his Labour supporters, and although he is a man whom we all respect and like, he had not a single constructive word to say about alternative policies. That was remarkable and striking.
    Most of today's speeches, including that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—I believe that it was his maiden speech at the Dispatch Box in his present capacity and the House wishes him great good fortune and success in the heavy and

    933
    responsible work that he has to do—have been concerned with inflation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is entirely right to maintain as his chief objective ensuring to the utmost of his ability that we bring about the reduction of inflation. There are other objectives, but that remains paramount among them, and so it should. Inflation is a scourge. Inflation is disruptive of society. Inflation can destroy the social fabric of a nation. We came a short while ago far too close to that precipice. I have supported my right hon. and learned Friend strongly in that policy and I support him now. I shall support him and his colleagues in future.
    It is right for the House and the nation to rejoice in the success that the Government have already had. The rate of inflation is substantially less than it was. In addition, industrial relations when measured in terms of strikes appear to be vastly better than they were under the previous Administration. We have a strong balance of payments and there is undoubtedly a new note of realism abroad in our nation. These are great gains and they must be held.
    There is much in the Budget to approve and to applaud, not least the substantial catalogue of help for small businesses that occurred in this Budget and the previous one. We should approve and applaud the work that is being done for the disabled. Each of us can easily find features to dislike. I dislike the idea of an index-linked gilt-edged security. I dislike the incursion of the State into the private savings sector.
    Like the budget or loathe it, none can deny the remarkable courage of my right hon. and learned Friend in producing it—[Laughter]. I wish him every success. The laughter to which we have been privileged to listen confirms that one of the most unattractive aspects of our Budget discussions, whether in the Chamber, on television or on the radio, is the way in which to so great an extent partisan or sectional interests are ground. The speech of the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar was notable from that point of view as was, to some extent, the speech of the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles. I did not know that the Liberal Party's proposals had been fed into the Treasury model computer. I shall be interested to read any material that has been published. It sounds rather like the maiden being fed to the dragon. I only hope that she enjoyed the experience.
    We must look much more widely at our nation's problems and our place in the world and try not to adopt the usual attitude of"What is in it for me?" or"What is in it for my party?". I approve strongly of the medium-term financial strategy. The Treasury and Civil Service Committee endorsed it. It was a bold concept. It is undoubtedly right for the Chancellor of the day to provide an aim and to state plainly his target so that the nation may be aware of it.
    The Treasury and Civil Service Committee has commented on the medium-term financial strategy and its implementation, but not quite in the way that the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles suggested. I was surprised that the Chancellor did not refer to that text more. Like it or dislike it, that examination—taking evidence from distinguished academics and practical people at home and abroad, from the Chancellor and from the Governor of the Bank of England—is probably the most serious examination of economic policies as
    934
    currently practised in the United Kingdom that the House, through its representatives, has undertaken. It surely merits discussion.
    There was an earlier matter on which the Treasury and Civil Service Committee reported. I hope that the report was of help to the House. The Committee reported one year ago that it believed that the assumptions underlying the medium-term financial strategy were not well founded. I quote as one example the proposal that it would be possible to turn round the finances of the nationalised industries over the period of the strategy by about £2½ billion. The Committee stated that it thought that as a result of that of the Government's measures a disproportionate burden would fall on manufacturing industry. The implication was that performance in investment and in the reduction of unemployment was likely to be unhappy.
    The Committee pointed out that it was absurd to award salary increases in the Civil Service of about 25 per cent. while the Government purported to have an 18 per cent. cash limit. The Government took prompt action and I hope that they will continue to be resolute. I am sorry that the warnings given a year ago were not heeded. It is as a result of that that we have the problems of today.
    The chief problem lies in the realm of public expenditure. That is what the Budget is all about. The House would find it worth while giving some attention to the second paragraph of the Red Book, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary referred. He used almost the same words as appear in the Red Book.
    The second and third sentences of the second paragraph of part II of the Red Book state:
    "But the projected level of public expenditure implies a tax burden significantly higher than the Government would wish. For this reason the Government regards the level of public expenditure as requiring the most serious attention during the 1981 survey."
    When I wished my right hon. and learned Friend good fortune, that was not a mere politeness. His task is perhaps the most significant of any in the Government at present. Public expenditure has not been controlled by the Government in the past. That is why the Chancellor is in such difficulty. That is why he is almost having to scrape the barrel to raise revenue. I do not envy him his task. We should support him most strongly because I believe that he had and has no alternative.
    We require the House and the nation to face the facts of the world situation in which we are having to trade and exist. The Chancellor referred to the problems stemming from the increase in the price of oil, which he observed has increased so substantially over the past several years. That is not the only problem. The whole context is one to cause us grave concern.
    There is a world recession. At any rate, world trade is not growing as fast as one would expect. It is tragic to relate that there was no leadership, especially at the time of the Carter Administration, in the free world. That is what we must develop. I hope that we may give it ourselves if we do not find it in the new President.
    Secondly, there are the fearsome implications of technology. The House knows all about them. Thirdly, there is the immense competition from the new"Japans" of this world as the manufacturing base shifts from North America and Europe to the Far East.
    We have our structural problems, which we talk about so much in the House but do not always face. Over the

    935
    years we have hardly increased production at the rate that we could and should. Let us be plain about the position at home. The domestic economic situation is grave. It is intensely worrying. Anyone who is engaged in manufacturing industry or commerce knows that to be a fact. The level of unemployment today—never mind what some say it will reach—is intolerable. The reduction in manufacturing output and capacity in our nation is unacceptable. Further, it is worse than it appears on the surface. If it were not for the temporary short-time working compensation scheme and the excellent work that the Government are doing to try to help young people, the situation would be much worse.
    If one talks to company managements—as right hon. and hon. Members must do frequently—it becomes easily apparent that it is likely that within the next 12 months many of the most significant companies in the United Kingdom will face very real problems indeed. Some may even find themselves unable to survive. That is the position. Many British companies are kept alive today and keep people in work only because of their overseas earnings.
    I will not accept that the disasters—for that is what we have in human, corporate and community terms—are inevitable. We should mount a programme for national economic recovery, a programme to restore—and it will not be easy—higher levels of employment and national prosperity. The base must be a greater degree of industrial productivity. The first responsibility is the Government's, to set the scene and capture imagination. So much of the problem is psychological. I abhor the climate of gloom. It is the Government's responsibility also to declare objectives.
    May I make practical suggestions and give examples of what I believe might be done? People may agree or disagree with me, but let us work on practical ideas. As the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles said so wisely, by far the largest share of public expenditure is taken by current spending, of which far and away the greatest item is wages. It is staggering how the proportion has risen in recent years. I shall weary the House with a few statistics. In the fiscal year 1974–75 the amount of current spending was under 80 per cent. and capital expenditure was 21½4 percent. By 1980–81, current spending had risen to 89 per cent. and capital expenditure had fallen to 11 per cent. The cost of administration rises, yet there is proportionately less construction, fewer capital projects and fewer—to use the Prime Minister's striking phrase—real jobs. That we must change. We must spend far more on real things and far less on administration. That is the first change that I would urge on the Government. I do not argue for cuts in public expenditure. They are sterile things to talk of on their own. However, let us spend what we spend more wisely.
    For a start, let us consider the cash limits, which are now assimilated with the Estimates as a result of the work of the House as a whole and the devoted work of the Treasury. Let us divide the cash limits into the amounts spent on capital items and the amounts spent on administration so that we can have a close look at what is happening.
    Secondly, there is something that the Government and the House can do together. We have in front of us a report from the Public Accounts Committee under the
    936
    chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett). It recommends the establishment, broadly speaking, of a national audit service and a re-emphasis of the work of the Exchequer and Audit Department into the area of value for money. Let us back ourselves up. Let us give ourselves a tool that we can put to work to see that taxpayers' cash is better spent.
    Thirdly, let us consider the business of Supply. We have set up the Procedure Committee under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) to look into Supply. The whole House knows how careless we are in voting money. Let us accelerate the establishment of a systsm that will enable Back Bench Members and Select Committees in particular to examine Supply more meticulously than before. Let us get a grip on what is spent. Let us not complain all the time that the Government do it or do not do it. Let us take over some of the responsibility ourselves and give ourselves the machinery to do that. Let us practise what some of us have preached for some time.
    Fourthly, there are matters that the Government and the City of London can do together. I should like to see my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor set up a special section in the Treasury, or perhaps it can be done in the Prime Minister's office. Let instructions go to Departments to send in all the capital projects that have been lying in pigeon-holes and on shelves for a very long time. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen know them as well as I do—the Channel tunnel or Channel bridge, the Severn barrage in my part of the world, electrification and bridges. There are a hundred schemes. Let them be examined by the people in the City of London.
    We boast that we have the finest, most effective and most efficient financial apparatus in the world. Let us see which projects can be privately funded and then get on with them. It will not be inflationary or add to the bills that we should have to meet if it were nationalised industries or the Government who were spending the money. Let us raise the money privately. There is plenty of money in the pockets of the people through which we can work our way out of the depression.
    Then again there are matters that the Government alone can do. I was most interested in the passage in my right hon. and learned Friend's speech yesterday when he said how heavy now was the burden of social services—£27 billion, more than one-quarter of total Government expenditure. What will we do about that? None of us wants to see it cut; all of us argue that more money should be spent if possible, yet what do we have? We have set up the most complex, wasteful and incomprehensible system of transfer payments in the world. We all know, again, that too much money goes to the administrators and too little very often to those who should be in receipt of benefits. Let us have an immediate inquiry into how we can simplify the system and make it easier to understand, so that those who deserve benefits the most can get the most.
    Sixthly, the Government, whom I so strongly support, must make a better effort to get a grip on nationalised industries. The amount of money that we are giving so carelessly, let us say to the British Steel Corporation, is a disgrace. It would have been wiser to have appointed a receiver some time ago. We should have sold off large parts of the industry. As it is, we are perpetuating difficulties for ourselves. Equally, it is a disgrace that we have such huge overmanning in British Airways. Let us

    937
    go for the nationalised industries much more strongly. Let us sell off everything that we can. Let us reduce the difficult areas to more manageable proportions.
    Seventhly—and here I so much agree with the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles when he talks of wider share ownership, profit-sharing and so on—I hope that the House will not mind my boasting that I began the modern unit trust industry in this country and equity-linked life insurance contracts. I am a profound believer in spreading the ownership of property. I hope that it will not be very long before we have comprehensive legislation from this Government to make that acceptable on a much wider scale. Let us mobilise the energy and enthusiasm of our people into a crusade to begin the economic regeneration of our country.
    Amidst all the gloom, I find myself an optimist. I still believe that our managers, technicians and workpeople are the most conscientious, loyal and competent in the world. However, what we need above all is leadership. I look to my right hon. and hon. Friends to give it.
    6.38 pm
    Dr. Jeremy Bray: We have listened to an admirable speech by the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). If I may say so, it represented a truly Tory and pragmatic view of economic policy of a kind which we used to hear from the Front Bench and which perhaps we shall hear again but which we had not heard hitherto yesterday or today. The practical suggestions that he made would command a great deal of agreement on the Opposition Benches, particularly increased capital spending on major projects in the public sector that could be financed privately or publicly. Never mind, let us get on with them.
    Hon. Members on the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service would also like to pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his chairmanship. He guided a pretty rebellious crew through a detailed, searching and hard-working examination, which came up with as balanced and impartial a summary of the merits and difficulties of monetary policy as we are likely to get in this Parliament or any national Assembly anywhere in the free world which is considering such difficult problems. Having put in all that effort in the Select Committee, we are anxious to see the lessons drawn in the House and in the economic policy of the Government.
    I hope that we may first dispose of the tabloid argument that we still hear in speeches from the Chief Secretary, who has perhaps not had time to learn better, as well as from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others. We hear arguments about suitcase money. The Prime Minister might reflect that she has printed more money than any previous Prime Minister. In percentage terms, she has printed a greater increase in the money supply than any Prime Minister since her right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). The intention to do anything in particular about the money supply is very different from its achievement. The Prime Minister, in pursuing policies of the kind that she has pursued, was almost inevitably bound to lose control of the money supply, as has turned out to be the case.
    There is then the argument that one cannot spend one's way out of a recession and that one cannot create real jobs by Government spending. In the Select Committee, we learnt to have a degree of respect for the Treasury model. We learnt that it has been more accurate in predicting the
    938
    course of events than Ministers have been and more accurate than many outside and more superficial attempts to describe the economy.
    But in order to be impartial, I quote recent evidence from the London Business School model—if that is regarded by Conservative Members as a more dispassionate source of evidence—on the impact of an increase in public spending of £100 million per quarter. Over the first four years, far from leading to no increase in total spending, it leads to an increase in total spending of well above £100 million per quarter. This means that in fact there is crowding in. Private spending increases along with public spending, so that one creates jobs not only in the public sector but in the private sector. That is the evidence of the London Business School model, as produced at a Social Science Research Council seminar last week.
    There is then the tabloid argument that one must first tackle inflation and only then can one tackle unemployment. I shall return to that in a moment. But let us remember that that does not lead to the conclusion that when one has dealt with inflation one has necessarily restored full employment. One may have wrecked the economy in one's attempt to cure inflation. The practical problem is not that one should deal with inflation first and then go on to deal with unemployment but how one can tackle both so that inflation can be brought down and kept down while full employment is restored. The Government have not begun to think about that problem and they are now standing on the edge of a precipice as they worry themselves stiff about the consequences of a major fall in the value of the pound, which is likely to occur in the next few weeks or months.
    On that tabloid level, I hope that Ministers will come off it and stop trying to kid not only their own Back Benchers, who have ceased to believe them, but the country about the kind of dogma that they have been offering.
    There is then a more serious level of argument from Ministers and Conservative Members which, without wishing to be derogatory to the Financial Secretary, I would call the journalistic argument. That argument lay behind the first memorandum of evidence from the Treasury to the Select Committee, which exposed to the Select Committee the fact that the Treasury was not really thinking about the problems. There was an enormous contrast between the quality of the initial evidence to the Select Committee from the Treasury, which was superficial and resembled the kind of stuff that one used to read from the Financial Secretary in his journalistic days, and the evidence from the Bank of England which was carefully and cautiously argued and related to the technical arguments in the literature. The same applied to the arguments from foreign central banks, notably the Bundesbank, from foreign economists of great distinction such as Milton Friedman and James Tobin as well as from other Continental, American and British economists.
    That tabloid argument, souped up to the journalistic level, which we saw in the Treasury evidence was really the clue that did the damage to the Government's case in the Select Committee. We burrowed away, and the conclusions that we reached are spelt out in the latter half of the report. They are not spelt out in the conclusions chapter, which represented merely the horse-trading in the Committee in its final sessions, in which inevitably, one

    939
    would not expect proper treatment of the arguments. Chapters 6 to 9 contain the guts of the argument on monetary policy.
    First, on the question of PSBR, interest rates and money supply, it is apparently the case that increases in the PSBR are generally accompanied, followed by or associated with increases in the money supply. But what are the consequences of this in a cycle? If there is a cyclical increase in the borrowing requirement because of increased unemployment benefit and a fall in tax yields, the borrowing requirement of course increases above expected levels. In many circumstances, the money supply will increase as well. But if the Government have a money supply target, they must then either increase taxation or cut public spending in order to bring the money supply back on target. This therefore switches off the automatic stabilisers and destabilises output. That is what the Chancellor did yesterday in the Budget. At a time when, as he thought, he needed to bring the money supply back to his target, he actually cut the real economy in order to cut the PSBR in order to cut the money supply.
    A more realistic policy is to say that, if we have inevitable cyclical increases in the borrowing requirement, there will be no long-term effect if they are accommodated in the money supply target as well. But the Chancellor did not have the courage or the insight to do that yesterday.
    In the next chapter, there is the argument about how the money supply works in an open economy in relation to the exchange rate. The international monetarist argument was that tightening the money supply increased the exchange rate and accelerated the impact of monetary policy on the domestic economy and got a quick response in prices and wages so that there was no major loss in output.
    Experience has been precisely the contrary. The effect of announcing money supply targets is to have a colossal impact on the exchange rates, sending it roaring away, to create total uncompetitiveness for manufacturing industry and thus to cause a catastrophic fall in output. That fall in output becomes associated with an inventory recession because interest rates are increased in the attempt to enforce the tight money policy. Therefore, far from international monetarism smoothing the course of monetary policy, it makes it impracticable in a free society and an open economy.
    There is then the question of the costs of monetary policy. What is the relative effect upon output by comparison with its effect upon inflation? We heard from the Chief Secretary today that if one increases public spending one relaxes the monetary target, and this has a far greater effect on inflation than output. Again, the evidence is precisely the contrary.
    When the Treasury saw its mistake in being offhand and superficial in its treatment of the Committee and sent us a paper on the background to economic policy, one paragraph included a reference to the only estimate that had been given of the costs of monetary policy. That was a paper by Laidler, who in his evidence to the Committee dismissed his own work as"back of an envelope" calculations. Nevertheless, that was solemnly quoted by the Treasury as the only estimate by any economist which supported the Government's gradualist policy.
    The Laidler estimate was that it needed only a 1 per cent. increase in unemployment for one year to reduce the continuing rate of inflation by 5 per cent. That is
    940
    marvellous. Had we been able to reduce the rate of inflation by 10 per cent. with a couple of percentage points increase in unemployment for just one year, heavens above, that would have been a good bargain even though it would have been an unpleasant cost to pay. If the Government really calculated that it needed only a 2 per cent. increase in unemployment in one year to bring down inflation by 10 per cent., we can understand why they were such enthusiastic monetarists.
    However, in that same paragraph, the Treasury went on to refer to evidence in an annex which gave its own estimate of the output costs of reducing inflation. There the picture was entirely different. It showed that, in order to reduce inflation by just 1 per cent., one had to sacrifice 4 per cent. of output for one year and 2½ per cent.-years of unemployment. Therefore, in order to achieve the 10 per cent. reduction in inflation, one would need not the 2 per cent. in unemployment which Laidler estimated, but 25 per cent.-years of unemployment—that is, 5 per cent. for five years or 10 per cent. for two and a half years, however one takes the dose.
    That twelvefold error in the cost estimation of monetary policy was the fundamental miscalculation which the Government made in espousing a monetary policy.
    It could be admitted that, even though the Government had miscalculated, they had a policy and they would stick to the money supply targets. The Friedman get-out—we heard it again during his pre-Budget assessment on"Panorama" on Monday—is that the blame for the loss of control of the money supply last year could simply be placed on inadequate techniques for the control of money as practised by the Bank of England. That is the same old lame excuse which Friedman has thrown at every central bank which has attempted monetary policy.
    The House will find the detailed argument in chapter 9 of our report, which says that if we try to follow monetary targets in an open economy, with competitive banking and no controls on capital movements, we have an incompatible set of objectives as a result of which it will go wrong. We saw how the attempt to use the corset went wrong, in that there was the leak into commercial bills overseas. But the argument now is that money-based control will do the trick.
    The House should think about that for a moment. Money-based control, by controlling the deposits of the clearers at the Bank of England, will effectively create a limited supply of licences to the banks to create money. That limited supply of licences will be"bid up" in a free market to whatever price or interest rates are needed for each individual bank to achieve the necessary ratios to cover its own deposits.
    If that puts up the cost of banking in this country too much and people can borrow more cheaply overseas, those people will promptly switch their banking overseas. Already the standing arrangement by the clearers in this country is that the moment any mandatory money-based control system is imposed their major depositors and major accounts will switch to the European branches of the British clearers. The computer systems, forms and everything else are already set up in order to do that. Therefore, money-based control will not create control of the money supply. That is the argument in a nutshell—in those four chapters—and that is why over the weekend the press said that there was a remarkable crystallisation of opinion last week.

    941
    We saw the logic underlying the Government's monetary policies effectively destroyed by the painstaking work of an all-party Committee of this House. Where does that leave us in terms of the Government's political position? It leaves a barrage of intense disbelief on the Conservative Benches as to what Conservative Ministers are doing. That is obviously an acute political problem for the Conservative Party, and I wish it luck in solving it.
    As to the practical effect of yesterday's Budget, we have not seen its like since the battle of the Somme when the cream of the nation poured over the trenches to be mown down by the machine guns of the opposite side. Conservative Members will be mown down in their constituencies in the next election—gallant, but not very Tory. Nevertheless, to do that by pushing first women, children, young people and the sick over the top of the trenches so that it is they who catch the fire is despicable.
    6.57 pm
    Mr. John Browne: Yesterday afternoon, the Leader of the Opposition termed this a"no-hope Budget". Personally, I think that it would have been more correct had the right hon. Gentleman termed it the"last-hope Budget". I believe that it presents us with the last hope genuinely to achieve a technological revolution based upon sound money. In short, it is our last hope of remaining a developed, technological nation rather than becoming an underdeveloped industrial nation on a base of hyper-inflation.
    My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor has been placed in a difficult position He certainly was in presenting this Budget. A severe world recession has bitten into this country in a very big way, certainly from the second half of 1980 onwards. The United Kingdom economy is in a chronically unhealthy state. Many hon. Members, particularly Labour Members, have referred to the sickness of our economy. It is a sickness which is so bad and so deep that it could not possibly be the fault of a Government who have been in office for only two years or less. It has been the fault of British Governments for at least 20, if not 30, years. It is indeed a difficult task to turn that economy round.
    Overmanning was disguised by both Conservative and Labour Parties by endlessly funding State-owned industries and by creating unprofitable jobs which had to be paid for through taxation, borrowing and, in the end, inflation.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will consider this important point. With the pound at its present over-valued level, if people in large sections of British industry worked for free they still could not take those industries back to the competitive situation in which they were in 1976. The over-valued pound and our lack of competitiveness are the central problem, not the factors about which the hon. Gentleman is talking.
    Mr. Browne: That perfectly illustrates my point. The £ stands at about 2·20 against the dollar; 10 years ago it stood at 2·80. In 1971 it was at a Smithsonian parity of 100 and today it is at about 82, so it is 20 per cent. cheaper than it was 10 years ago. We have been grossly overpaying ourselves over the past 10 years. It hurts to go back to a currency even 20 per cent. cheaper than it was 10 years ago. Of course it hurts. It exposes the inflation we have suffered over the past 10 years.
    942
    My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor had a very difficult task in planning and executing the Budget. People in general do not like reality. They like to talk about facing reality, but actually facing it is different. The Chancellor was subjected to enormous pressures, and he has produced a clever Budget which balances the aims of controlling Government expenditure and of giving a new and dynamic opportunity to British industry.
    This Government have been in power for almost two years. In mid-term, Governments tend to get worried about their policies and start to turn around. Despite pressures from the Labour Party, the Liberal Party, the CBI, trade unions, nationalised industries, from within the Conservative Party and even from within the Government, I am pleased that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor resisted the temptation to do a U-turn and so throw to the wind all the efforts that have already been made. I therefore think that the Budget is not only clever but courageous, and I strongly support the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). It is also a Budget of reality—a painful reality. It is relatively easy for the Government to spend £1·2 billion on British Leyland, but when it comes to raising that amount of revenue they find that the whole of the excise duty increases on cigarettes, beer, spirits and wine do not amount to more than £1 billion.
    I have criticisms of the Budget, praise and hopes. Whilst I support the Budget in general, I want to mention some reservations. My first reservation is on the windfall profits tax on banks. Here I declare an interest as a banker. It is nothing short of amazing to me that a Conservative Government should impose this tax on one of our international export earners. The years 1973 and 1980 were two peak periods of bank earnings, and they were both periods of high interest rates.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: I am interested in what my hon. Friend is saying, but does he not agree that the high profits of the banks have a great deal more to do with high interest rates than with their productive practices?
    Mr. Browne: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend; that is true, or part of it is true. He mentions what are generally termed"high profits", and that is what I am trying to illustrate. The years 1973 and 1980 were years when so-called high profits were earned. But, measured on a return on capital basis, that represents 8 per cent. Indeed, the average between 1973 and 1980 was a mere 4½ per cent. return on capital. I question whether my hon. Friend would consider that to be a high profit deserving of a virtually retrospective windfall tax. On a world basis, 4½ per cent. is uncompetitive.
    This tax is most unfortunate because it sets a precedent which can, in future, be abused by taxing success and backing losers even more than we do today. It is my guess that the £400 million taken from the banks will go straight to the Department of Industry to be passed on to nationalised industries.
    I am sorry that the Government turned a deaf ear to my suggestion of encouraging banks to invest large amounts of their equity funds in the equity of high-risk new ventures. I am also sorry that the banks did not seize that initiative, with the result that they now face this windfall profits tax.
    I believe that the extension of the eligibility of people over 50 to purchase granny bonds is misguided. Why not

    943
    extend the eligibility to persons of 18 years of age? If we are to have indexation at all, why not allow everyone to benefit from it? Extending it to 18-year-olds would have done an enormous amount to pull out of bank deposits the £5 billion of new, personal bank deposits that is now distorting M3. It would have brought the money back to the Government in a far less inflationary way. I ask the Chancellor to think about the possibility of extending eligibility for granny bonds to people of 18 years of age and, at the same time, offering old-age pensioners an index-linked annuity. At the age of 65, people are not much interested in 25 years into the future. They want money now.
    The Budget is a painful reality. The pain is the price we must all pay for past Government weakness and inability to break the stranglehold of the employment cartels and so to control both the quantity and the quality of Government spending. The question is not simply how much the Government are spending but also what they are spending it on. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton said, it is the difference between administration and real investment. On the one hand we have privileged trade unions which can demand wages, and on the other hand nationalised State monopolies which can charge and pay prices out of all relation to the market. They also can and do hold up technological advance, to the great detriment of our country. Monetarism is a free market philosophy. It has worked very effectively in the free market private sector, but it has barely got its hands around the public sector.
    My most serious criticism of the Budget is the decision to issue a gilt-edged security linked to inflation. In general, indexation has the effect of building inflation into the system. More seriously, it reduces the will and even the wish, at grass roots level, to kill inflation. It is scandalous that the Government have taken the step of issuing an index-linked security in their own long-term debt market. It is a precedent that, I fear, will be followed and within five or 10 years many billions of pounds worth of index-linked gilts will be available, without restriction of purchaser.
    Of course, it makes Government funding easier, but at what rate? It is easier now for index-linked bonds, but what about the future fixed rate market? Of course, it will help to reduce MLR. It also helps private pension funds to gain an index-linked asset, but this can be justified only because we have not killed index-linking of pensions in the public sector. It is building inflation into the system, and I fear that it will be most difficult to cure.
    Secondly, it will have the effect of virtually killing the long-term corporate debt market. Generally, Government indexation has a bad effect on morale, upon expectations and thus upon business investment plans. I beg the Chancellor to reconsider the issue of that index-linked gilt-edged security.
    I am sorry that there was no mention in the Budget of some restitution of fiscal neutrality between some of the financial institutions and individuals in order to encourage people to hold on to their money and to invest it in British industry rather than giving it to tax-privileged institutions.
    I am sorry that there was no mention of deemed domicile, which is so destructive by threatening the tax status of many major international operators and
    944
    individuals who operate from bases in this country. I am also sorry that there was no mention of any reform in the rating system.
    So much for my reservations. In general, I praise and support the Budget. I was very pleased to see that this year we have given due consideration to people such as the blind and the disabled. It is a Budget of last hope and of painful reality. However, it is also a Budget of opportunity for business, particularly for new businesses which are the key to our achievement of the technological revolution and to the creation of profitable jobs, as opposed to mere jobs.
    Mr. Bill Homewood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Browne: No, because many hon. Members wish to speak.
    I was pleased to see the fall of 2 per cent. in minimum lending rate. That will be worth approximately £700 million to industry. I was pleased to see the extension of stock relief and the introduction of energy relief at the upper end of the consumption market. I am also pleased that the Chancellor has agreed to allow companies to buy their own shares in the form of Treasury stock, which I have long requested. This added market liquidity for the shares of companies will greatly benefit the flow of equity money to investment in shares of British companies.
    This has been an epic Budget of opportunity for new business. The revisions of the capital transfer tax and the introduction of a loan guarantee scheme, for which I have long asked, are most welcome. May I, at this point, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Upminster (Mr. Loveridge) on his persistence in his Committee in demanding this scheme from the Government.
    All that is as nothing compared with the superb and imaginative initiative which the Chancellor has taken in the establishment of the business start-up scheme. That is a major revolutionary step in at last offering an opportunity for British industry to achieve a technological revolution. My only wish is that it should be extended to existing small companies and not restricted merely to new ones. Let us encourage genuine public, as opposed to State, ownership.
    For new businesses, this is a Budget of new and unprecedented opportunities. Much overmanning has already been shed by past policy of this Government.
    Mr. Homewood: They are all on the dole.
    Mr. Browne: That is right, but many managements are now more disciplined and more aggressive as a result of the disciplines and the forces of high interest rates in the past and of a relatively strong pound.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell: Does not unemployment have a cost?
    Mr. Browne: Yes, it does have a cost, but we must achieve the shedding of overmanning and, at the same time, the transfer of labour, management and capital from old, dying and dead industries to new, high-technology industries. That is what we must achieve. The Budget will do much to encourage the start-up of such new, high-technology companies.
    Government spending is the key to beating inflation. I welcome a change in the measure of Government spending from a volume basis to a cash basis. That will prove important to understanding and expectations and, therefore, to planning and investment.

    945
    However, our biggest problem is credibility. Will the Government actually control spending and will the quality of that spending be improved, with a balance being restored by lessening the amount spent on administration and increasing expenditure on genuine profitable investment? I welcome and support the Government's medium-term finance strategy, which in itself was a ground breaker; it was a correct and bold move to help restore Government credibility.
    The key to success of this last-hope Budget of opportunity is to control Government spending, in quality and in quantity. The key to that is to break the stranglehold of the employment cartels on our economy. So far, the denationalisation programme has been far too shallow and timid. There has been little or no sale of State assets and no imaginative formulas for leasing State assets. So far, the programme on industrial relations has been far too weak. We still have the closed shop. We still have no voluntary secret ballot on the shop floor. We still have trade unions with privileges which are now way out of date and which prevent rather than encourage genuine free collective bargaining.
    Why should trade unions be one of the only institutions in the country which are not obliged to publish accounts? They control vast sums of money, yet trade unions do not have to publish accounts, as do companies. Trade union reform, the strict control of immigration, a crackdown on law and order and a revision of the rating system represented the bulk of the so-called middle ground at the time of the last general election. That middle ground was put loud and clear to the nation by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and resulted in a massive election victory. People wanted a Government to govern in the national interest as a whole.
    I now turn to my fervent hopes, which I believe I share with the majority of the nation. We are prepared to face reality and we are prepared to accept the pain of that reality. All that we ask is that the Government should keep their side of the bargain. We trust that the Government will show more active support for the Prime Minister in pursuing the policies upon which she and our party were elected. The need is for credibility in controlling Government expenditure—not only the amount but the quality of that expenditure. Only the Government can show the leadership necessary to establish that credibility. I sincerely trust that they will not shrink from what I see as a last hope and a historic chance.
    7.18 pm
    Mr. Ted Fletcher: I congratulate the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) on his moving speech. I assure him that there was hardly a dry eye on the Opposition Benches as we listened to the plight of the bankers. Not everyone has been upset at the return of a Tory Government. Some people have done well, including the bankers and the finance houses that contribute so liberally to the funds of the Tory Party.
    In 1980, the four national banks made a profit of £1,600 million. For the first six months of this year, they made a profit of £770 million. The Government have been forced to introduce a system of guaranteeing the loans of small business men because the banks, with all this largesse, have been refusing to take risks and to help the small employer. It is a little farcical for Conservative Members to castigate the Government because, for once only, they are applying a windfall tax.
    946
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) was right to say that fundamentally the Budget should have been aimed at solving the grave, economic problems with which we are faced. Our gravest economic problem is unemployment, yet nothing has been done to give the 2·5 million—soon to rise to 3 million—who are without work the slightest hope that the economy will be stimulated to create more jobs. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition described the Chancellor's proposals as a"no-hope Budget" and there is certainly no hope in it for thousands of people, particularly in the North-East. In north-west Durham, for example, one man in four is unemployed with no hope of getting work immediately. In Sunderland and Hartlepool the figure is one in five. Because of the poverty in the North-East one could at least have expected the Government to direct some of their economic policies towards reducing the level of unemployment.
    There is now more unemployment than there has been in the past 50 years. The rise of over 1 million in the past 12 months is the greatest increase since 1924. In addition, industry has been running down. Industrial output fell by 7 per cent. and manufacturing production by 9 per cent. More companies went bust last year than at any time within memory, with a total of 6,900 company liquidations. By the end of the year they were running at 170 a week. In simple terms that means 34 companies going bankrupt every working day. Yet the Government have the effrontery to suggest that they are taking action to help the small employer. They should be doing something to stop existing companies going into liquidation rather than producing measures to encourage the creation of new companies.
    Of course, all this must be related to the Government's cuts in public expenditure. Many of the companies in the small firms sector work on contracts for local authorities, building houses and providing equipment for schools and hospitals. They rely on the public service to enable them to provide employment. The drastic cuts in public services mean that many hundreds of thousands of small business men, particularly in the construction industry, are going out of business as a result of Tory policies. It is obscene, bearing in mind how many slums need to be cleared and how many substandard houses need to be repaired, that 300,000 construction workers are unemployed.
    Judging from their Budget proposals the Government seem not to realise the need to prime the economy if these people, or at least some of them, are to be got back to work. I say"some" because some unemployment must always remain in the nature of the capitalist society in which we live. The introduction of the silicon chip and the computer into industry means that our industrial base must shrink every year if it is to accommodate the automation and other technical developments that these factors will bring. We cannot ignore the fact that, however prosperous industry becomes, it will need less and less labour. The Government are ignoring this aspect in their policies.
    Unemployment therefore continues to rise and the Government's Budget proposals for dealing with the problem have been condemned from every quarter. Almost without exception, including most of the newspapers that normally support the Tory Party, the Budget has been condemned as vicious and disastrous for the people of this country. We are witnessing an unusual spectacle in which the TUC, the CBI and the Institute of

    947
    Directors are united in telling the Government that the Chancellor's proposals will go no way towards solving our industrial problems.
    The answer is to reflate the economy. That is the lesson that history teaches us. After the 1929 crash in America, Roosevelt restored full employment by a tremendous programme of public investment, with the Tennessee Valley Authority and so on—
    Mr. John Browne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Fletcher: The hon. Member was discourteous in not giving way to any hon. Member on the Labour Benches when he was speaking. I shall therefore not give way to him, but of course if any other hon. Members wish to intervene I shall gladly give way to them.
    Mr. Homewood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. He is right to say that the hon. Member for Winchester did not give way to my reasonable attempt to intervene.
    My hon. Friend's comment about the influence of the Budget and the lessons of history is relevant. It is as true today as it was in the past that if we are to control inflation we shall have to do it in coexistence with the Keynesian method of reducing unemployment. Unless we can bring the two together there is no hope for this country. I think that that is what my hon. Friend is saying, and I agree with him.
    Mr. Fletcher: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention because that is precisely the point I am endeavouring to make. The CBI recognises that fact. It has suggested a £2·5 billion injection into the economy for railway electrification and so on. The TUC has suggested in its industrial document a £6 billion reflation. Anyone with a sense of history knows that if we reflate we can generate money by way of taxation and so on to help to pay for that reflation.
    We have been told that it is necessary to cut back on public expenditure because it is running at too high a level. Figures from EEC documents, however, suggest that while we in Britain devote 47 per cent. of our national domestic product to public expenditure, the figure for West Germany is 46 per cent., for France 47 per cent. and for the Netherlands 59 per cent. Our main industrial competitors are, therefore, devoting a great deal more to public expenditure than we are,
    Then there is the hidden taxation—the £1,300 million that the gas industry will have to pay directly to the Treasury over the next three years. That is another method of indirect taxation. We no longer talk about the cost of gas but about the gas price imposed by the Government. It is a tax that is imposed on industry and on old-age pensioners alike, and it presents them with higher energy costs generally than they would have if the Government had not demanded these excessive amounts.
    On the subject of energy costs one should not forget the impact upon working people who use a car to get to work of the increase in the price of petrol.
    It will also have a tremendous effect on the rural constituencies. I shall be surprised if Tory Members from the shires do not hound the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having put that extra tax on petrol. Some villages will
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    soon return to the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. In those days poor people had to walk to market to do their shopping. Bus services will no longer be adequate as the costs of travelling will not be funded by the Government. As a result, fares will be so excessive that many people will find themselves confined to their villages.
    Let us consider the point that has been raised by the hon. Member for Winchester. He implied that we were pricing ourselves out of the market and that wages are too high. On 26 January his colleague, the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), said that our labour was cheaper to employ than that of our major competitors. That is a fact.
    Mr. John Browne Mr. John Browne rose—
    Mr. Fletcher: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. Can he not take"No" for an answer?
    The average British wage is only 56 per cent. of the average German wage. A prominent Minister has said that our labour costs are cheaper. Therefore, the Government cannot claim that we are pricing ourselves out of the market.
    Mr. Nicholas Lyell: I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman's argument. It is true that our wages are lower than those found on the Continent. However, would the hon. Gentleman comment on the important point that, as a proportion of value added, our wages are far higher than those of our competitors? That is the real problem. Our wages average nearly 70 per cent. of value added.
    Mr. Fletcher: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by"value added". Earlier, it was pointed out that industrial production had increased by only 1 per cent. while wages had risen by 14 per cent. There is no relationship between those figures. Manufacturers are shedding labour because of the introduction of computers and technological advances. Production ratios remain the same while the labour force has often been reduced by half. Therefore, production is increasing although there are fewer workers. There is no relation between an increase in productivity and wage rises of 14 per cent. It cannot be claimed that working people are pricing themselves out of the market.
    The Government have not considered such matters. They are concerned only to carry out a monetarist policy that aims to reduce public expenditure. They are concerned to thin out the working population in the hope that the rate of inflation will fall. Although constant references are made to the fact that the battle of inflation is being won, inflation must still be reduced to the level found when the Tories came into office. At that time inflation stood at 9·9 per cent. Therefore, the battle of inflation has not been won.
    As a result of the Budget, the rate of inflation will probably increase. There can be no doubt that the Budget is a disaster for this country. I was not in the least surprised when I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer's lacklustre performance. He was the architect of the Industrial Relations Act. That went into the dustbin of history. No politician has introduced a greater failure. More days were lost in strikes as an immediate result of that Act than at any time since the general strike of 1926.
    After that performance I was surprised when the Prime Minister appointed the right hon. and learned Gentleman

    949
    as Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was the most unlikely appointment in history since the Roman emperor Caligula appointed his horse a proconsul. The predictions that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made seem to lack any economic basis. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might just as well put his predictions in"Old Moore's Almanac" as explain them to the House. During the past two years his figures have been consistently wrong. Time and again he has told the House that he can see a light at the end of the tunnel. The only thing that he can see is a train approaching in the other direction.
    The unemployed, particularly those in County Durham, cannot see any light in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Budget. Indeed, they are pessimistic about its outcome. The Tories are creating a society in which the rich become richer and the poor become poorer. I hope that my voice and that of my right hon. Friends will join with the many Conservative Members who are disillusioned with the contents of the Budget and say to the Chancellor"For God's sake go".
    7.36 pm
    Mr. Reg Prentice: I shall begin on a non-controversial note that will not take up very much time. I welcome the passage in the Budget speech in which my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced some help for the disabled and for organisations that work with the disabled. I happen to be one of the many thousands who urged him to take that course. When I was Minister with responsibility for the disabled, and since then, I have been in touch with him on this subject. We all welcome that proposal. I couple those remarks with a welcome to the Chief Secretary's announcement about the new level of mobility allowance. That is an excellent way of helping people to help themselves should they have lost their natural means of mobility.
    I turn to one of the debate's main themes, namely, public expenditure. Indeed, that was the main subject when my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary addressed the House earlier. It featured prominently in the powerful speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) and of my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne). I shall concentrate on the theme that the Cabinet has failed—or has relatively failed—in some respects on that front. Yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer was faced with constraints that were greater than need have been the case. The constraints imposed by the long-term weaknesses of the British economy and by the effects of the world recession would have been great in any event. However, despite all the efforts of some Ministers and of the Treasury, public expenditure has risen and has created a worse situation than might have been the case.
    Given those constraints, I have total admiration for the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has handled the problems facing him. His principal judgments were right. They have not been challenged effectively by any hon. Members or by any member of the public. We should all join together in admiring his courage and resolution and the way in which he has kept his nerve and pursued the basic strategy on which the Government were elected.
    The key to the Budget was my right hon. and learned Friend's decision that £10·5 billion was the maximum sum available for the public sector borrowing requirement. No one who has criticised the Budget, in the House or outside,
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    has made a reasoned case against that judgment. The Chancellor was correct to conclude that the figure of £14 billion—which would have been the estimate if he had not made his tax increases—was unacceptably high. All the main criticisms have implied a still higher figure. That has been true of the newspaper editorials that criticised him this morning. It is true of the CBFs and the TUC's view and of speeches by Opposition Members. It was particularly true of the speech by the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) when he opened the debate. That speech represented the right hon. Gentleman at his eloquent best, full of passionate rhetoric and no content. When he engages in that sort of exercise, he is one of the best speakers in the House except that when he sits down everyone is forced to ask"What was that all about?"
    Having paid that tribute to the Chancellor, I turn to my theme of public expenditure. Since the Government took office public expenditure has increased. The Chief Secretary gave certain reasons, which I accept, for part of that increase, but I do not accept that that is the total reason why it has increased so much. It was pointed out by the Chancellor yesterday and again by the Chief Secretary today that the figure is 5 per cent. less in 1980–81 than it would have been under the published plans inherited from the Labour Government. Those published plans are a considerable underestimate of what the Labour Government would now have been spending. If we were to take literally the speeches made by Labour Members, particularly the amendments that they have moved in Committees on Bill after Bill in this Parliament, they would have piled up commitments to spend money on a much larger scale than the plans they put on paper when the were still in office.
    No Government, certainly no post-war Government, have succeeded in keeping public expenditure under control. This Government have probably succeeded better than any other post-war Government, but their performance has not measured up to the needs of the critical situation with which the country is faced. As others have pointed out, we are concerned not merely with the total of public expenditure but with its shape. We are concerned that, within the given total, current expenditure has expanded at the expense of capital expenditure and also that public sector pay has increased as a proportion of the whole in such a way that more of a limited sum of money is being spent on wages and salaries and therefore less on public services.
    Against that background, I welcome what the Chancellor said yesterday about the stricter application of cash limits. The Chief Secretary repeated it today, and there is a paragraph in the Red Book to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton referred. The programmes of Departments are now given in cash as well as in volume terms. Those are welcome indications of the Government's determination to bring public expenditure under stricter control in the coming year.
    I want to put it to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench as strongly as I can that these new techniques can provide only a partial answer to the problem. The problem will not be solved solely by new methods of analysis or by stricter procedures to follow up overspending. It can be solved only by making hard political decisions, particularly in relation to what are often called the demand-led programmes. Those are programmes where a particular Act or declared policy

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    enables people to make applications for benefits or help of one sort or another and the total spend depends on the volume of demand.
    I repeat that I do not doubt that they will be hard political decisions—many of which will be unpopular and some of which may be breaches of election pledges—in terms of the overriding needs for the national economy.
    I shall illustrate the problem from my experience in the Department of Health and Social Security where I worked for 22 months. I hasten to add that I do not think that the problem is confined to that Department. I quote it purely as an example. It is one of the best examples as it is one of the biggest spenders. Other large programmes, and also small programmes, can provide examples of savings that could be made if the Government were prepared to face up to the difficult decisions involved.
    The Chancellor referred to the social security budget as being very large. He quoted a figure of £27 billion, which is the total estimated outlay on the social security side of the DHSS after the new upratings come into effect.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton said that this was a complex system. It is indeed. Including child benefits, one half of the nation pays £27 billion to the other half of the nation. If one were to exclude child benefits, which are a special case, three-quarters of the nation pays £27 billion to one-quarter of the nation varying amounts of weekly income by a series of rules so complex that the recipients cannot understand them, the staff in the DHSS offices generally cannot understand them and, unhappily, the error rate is high as a result.
    The 13 million recipients are often referred to in the House as people in need—the poorest and weakest section of our society. We have all used those phrases—I have used them myself. It is vital to recognise that that is not true of those 13 million people. It is true of some of them, but not all. I shall take the example of those over retirement age—the largest group—about 9 million people. Of that group, about 1⅔ million are within the supplementary benefit range. The remainder—more than 7 million—go right across the spectrum of society. Some will be only a little better off than the supplementary benefit level and others will be very well of. There will be others at all stages in between.
    That is why Parliament should legislate year by year for the automatic uprating of all pensions in line with prices. That raises the question in a way that has seldom been debated in the House, except in a piecemeal fashion. I say"piecemeal" because the Government inherited from the Labour Government an extravagant formula for the uprating of benefits. It has been modified three times—first by the first Social Security Act of last Session in relation to retirement pensions and other long-term benefits. It was modified again by the second Social Security Act of the last Session in relation to short-term benefits. It is being modified for a third time by the Social Security Bill now in Committee which gives the Chancellor legislative sanctions for the 1 per cent. abatement in upratings which he announced in the Budget.
    There is no reason to keep nibbling at the problem. It would be absolutely correct for the Government to have the discretion, as they had some years ago for a long time, to decide year by year what would be a proper uprating for that year, balancing the needs of the people concerned against other demands on the public purse. It would be
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    good to do it in line with prices for everyone if economic circumstances allow or to do better than that and to raise the real living standards of pensioners. I see no reason why cuts in the education service, the Health Service or local government services should automatically follow because the uprating of social security benefits is a no-go area for the Chancellor.
    For the year in question, 1980–81, we are indebted to Mr. Adam Raphael and others for the knowledge that the Cabinet last year was discussing the possibility of a 3 per cent. abatement in the uprating for the coming November. In other words there was to be an uprating of 7 per cent. instead of the 9 per cent. announced yesterday. It was and remains my view that 7 per cent. would have been about right in the prevailing circumstances.
    Would that have meant breaking a pledge? It would. But I believe that all Governments—certainly all Governments of whom I have had experience—have had a choice during their periods of office as to which pledges to break. That applies to Labour and Conservative Governments. The lesson to be drawn from that is that politicians at election time make too many pledges. They make pledges that they are not always able to fulfil. Above all, they make pledges to spend money that the country has not yet earned.
    The greatest possible benefit that the Government could confer on the retired population would be to bring inflation under control. That is infinitely more important than a marginal 60p or so on the uprating in any particular year.
    Mr. Bob Cryer:: Give the pensioners the choice.
    Mr. Prentice: I should like to make three brief points about the social security budget. First, I believe that the Christmas bonus should be abolished. That bonus costs money. It costs administrative time in DHSS offices. Therefore, it adds to the Department's salary bill. In my view, it is undignified to make that specific handout every year. It is a payment which is increasingly resented because the £10 is not uprated. Under both Labour and Conservative Governments there has been no uprating. The uprating could not be afforded either by a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer or by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. Therefore, year by year the resentment at receiving a derisory amount will rightly grow.
    What has gone wrong with social security spending over the years has been that successive Governments have added new benefits but have not had the courage to abolish an existing benefit. I suggest that the Government could abolish the Christmas bonus.
    The Government could also abolish the death grant. That has also become a derisory payment compared with the costs of a funeral. A survey published by the DHSS has shown that 90 per cent. of those who receive the death grant do not need it and say that they do not need it. I should prefer to see a meaningful sum concentrated on those who need it for seeing the jam spread across the board in a way which is of no real help to anyone. When I was responsible for the funeral expenses of my late father, I did not need a cheque for £32 from the DHSS. That would be true of every hon. Member. It would be true also of the great majority of the people we represent.
    I regret that the plan to transfer the responsibility for the first eight weeks of sickness benefit from the State to employers has been postponed from this year. It was a

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    good plan when it was published in Green Paper form. It was a better plan after the months of discussion that we held with employers, the TUC, the British Medical Association and everyone else involved. But it was unpopular. However, because it was unpopular, it should not have been ducked. We must say to everyone, particularly the business community,"If you are urging the Government to stop doing certain things, to withdraw the frontiers of Government, do not complain all the time if that process causes some temporary inconvenience". I think that we were entitled to more backing than we got. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the DHSS will return to this matter next year and that it will feature in the next Queen's Speech.
    I turn briefly to public sector pay. For more than a year after the general election the problem of controlling public expenditure was bedevilled by the Clegg Commission awards. The Clegg Commission was one of the worst bits of our inheritance from the Labour Government. There is probably no point at this stage in holding an inquest on those events.
    Since the disbandment of the Clegg Commission, the Government have adopted a tougher attitude, but not in my view tough enough. For example, I see no reason why the award by the arbitrator to the teaching profession last summer should have been allowed to stand. The Government had power under the Remuneration of Teachers Act to refer that award to both Houses of Parliament and to ask for it to be vetoed in view of the national economic situation. I believe that the Government should have taken that decision.
    I also see no reason why a few weeks ago, concerning the next award to the teachers, the employers' side on the Burnham Committee should have jumped from a 4 per cent. to a 7½ per cent. offer in one meeting. These rises for teachers lead directly to cuts in education in the classroom because the teachers' pay bill is forming a larger and larger share of the available limited cash year by year.
    I think that we are entitled to urge the Government at this stage to stand firm on all outstanding claims—specifically, of course, the Civil Service claim. The Civil Service strike a few days ago and the selective strikes that followed and are to continue are a disgrace to the Civil Service and a betrayal of its standards. I speak as someone who worked for two years in the Civil Service and with it as a Minister for more than nine years. I have always cherished happy memories of the co-operation of the Civil Service with successive Governments. But the traditions of the Civil Service were and are being betrayed by an unrepresentative Left-wing minority dominating the biggest Civil Service trade union. Certainly a wider public were angry at what happened on Monday, and a wider public will be angry with the Government if they make any further offer to the civil servants in this situation. The civil servants have got to lose this one, and they deserve to lose it.
    Mr. Lyell: At the same time, is it not right to say that, while the pay battle must be fought firmly and there must be no further increase, we must make it clearer to the Civil Service and to the nation that we must look for a new, fair formula, not the old pay research which was inadequate and excessively inflationary, so that civil servants can see their pay being worked out and take part in its working out?
    Mr. Prentice: My hon. Friend is quite right. That was the last point that I wished to make on that matter.
    Mr. Homewood Mr. Homewood rose—
    Mr. Prentice: What my hon. Friend said applies not only to civil servants but to the whole of the public sector. We have to get away from the old obsession with comparability, whether in the form of reports by the Pay Research Unil, the Top Salaries Review Body, the Doctors and Dentists Review Body, or whatever it may be, and have new concepts.
    Mr. Homewood: If the civil servants lose—I do not think that they will lose—will it not be because they do not have as much muscle as the miners or the water workers?
    Mr. Prentice: No. Each of those cases was very different. I remind the hon. Gentleman that a few months ago the national executive of the National Union of Mineworkers unanimously recommended to the membership that the National Coal Board's offer should be rejected and that consent should be given to industrial action. But in a pithead ballot the miners had the good sense to reject that advice and to carry on with their work. That shows that the attitudes being struck by trade union leaders often do not represent the real wishes of the rank and file. If there had been a secret ballot in the Civil Service, there would have been no strike last Monday. If there had been a secret ballot among steelworkers—a matter about which the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Homewood) has some knowledge—there would have been no steel strike last year.
    The Chancellor spoke yesterday of the need for new thinking on the determination of public sector pay and of the need for market forces to play a larger part in that determination. I am sure that that is absolutely right. The public should be made aware that, if pay increases too much in the public sector in relation to cash limits, it will result in a direct cutting of services. If the proportion of the National Health Service budget spent on salaries is increased, there will be a cut in the health services. If teachers' pay is increased, there will be a cut in education, and increased pay in local authorities will mean a cut in local government services. That factor should be borne in mind by everyone concerned.
    I have tried to suggest practical ways in which the control of public expenditure can become more effective. I speak as a total supporter of the Government's strategy. It is the only coherent strategy available to the nation, apart from the strategy that is put forward by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) and his friends on the extreme Left of the Labour Party. There is nothing in between. No strategy has been presented by the demoralised Right wing of the Labour Party, or by the Liberals, or the Social Democrats. The Government's strategy is a real strategy, and it deserves to succeeed. It deserves the total, continuous and enthusiastic support of every Conservative Member and of every committed Conservative in the country.
    Mr. Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is customary and a convention of the House that when an hon. Member refers to another hon. Member—
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Order. It is also customary for the Chair not to interfere in these matters. It is at the discretion of the Member.
    8.2 pm
    Mr. David Stoddart: The right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice), who not long ago was wailing about extremists in his former constituency, appears to have become an extreme extremist himself, particularly when he attacks the weakest in our society, the old-age pensioners. Apparently, he wishes to make many of them, who would not previously have been so, subject to a means test.
    Mr. Cryer: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the Opposition are united in their detestation of this nasty, vicious Budget, in their detestation of the right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice), and in their congratulations to the rank and file members of the Labour Party who wisely threw him out?
    Mr. Clinton Davis: The right hon. Gentleman is a nauseating creep.
    Mr. Stoddart: My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) makes a valid point. I shall express my own detestation of the Budget. I hope that the right hon. Member for Daventry will understand that members of all wings of the Labour Party are united in understanding that the Government have brought the country to a low depth of economic performance and that there are relevant Socialist policies—indeed, they are the only policies which will restore health to the economy.
    This is probably the worst Budget that I have heard, certainly since 1945. It is the most oppressive and damaging Budget that I have experienced in my lifetime. Indeed, the Government appear to have lapsed from folly into insanity.
    It can only be insanity to seek to deflate an economy which is already in deep slump. What sense can there be in taking resources out of the economy at a time when 2½ million people are unemployed and there are many unused resources in the economy, when factories are closing every day, and when many industries are working short time with under-used capacity? What sense is there in further deflating the economy in such circumstances?
    It also makes no sense to attempt to cut the public sector borrowing requirement at present. I know that Conservative Members would not agree with that. Nevertheless, in the present economic situation it is not sensible to attempt to cut the public sector borrowing requirement, and at the same time take measures that are bound to put pressure on the PSBR to expand. Yet that is what the Government are doing. It is a paradox. I cannot understand the mentality that acts in that way.
    The National Institute of Economic and Social Research estimates that for every 1 per cent. reduction in gross domestic product, £1,000 million will be added to the public sector borrowing requirement. If the Government are to deflate the economy to the extent that there will be a 2 per cent. cut in gross domestic product this year, it means that they will add £2,000 million of pressure to the public sector borrowing requirement. That is the Government's plan for 1981–82.
    There was also a planned reduction of 2 per cent. in gross domestic product in 1980–81. All in all, that is a 4 per cent. reduction which, according to the NIESR, will add £4,000 million to the public sector borrowing requirement.
    Had we had a neutral Budget or, better still, had we tried to increase the gross domestic product by 2 per cent.,
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    the swingeing increases in taxation that have been imposed by the Chancellor in the Budget would not have been necessary. The Government have brought this upon themselves. Indeed, the Budget locks us further into the spiral of decline which has taken place since the Government came to office on 3 May. Unless the Government realise that public expenditure should be used as the engine of recovery, there is no way out of that spiral of decline.
    We hear much criticism about public expenditure. I have said that in the present circumstances, when the Government have undermined confidence in the private sector—that confidence has been undermined as a result of the Budget even more than it was before—there is only one way to restore health to the economy in both the public and private sectors, and that is by using public expenditure. If public expenditure on useful purposes is increased it will stimulate the private sector because, after all, the public sector is the customer of the private sector. That is not fully understood by the Government or even by private industry itself.
    There is no doubt that the tax measures introduced by the Government will hit the poorer sections of our community hardest. The failure to increase tax allowances and the increases in the taxes on cigarettes, tobacco, beer and, most of all, petrol, will hit hardest those who can least afford to bear the taxation increases.
    During the election campaign, the Prime Minister appeared on television and said so nicely and so delightfully to the British public"I want to leave more money in your pockets so that you can spend it as you please.". Far from leaving more money in people's pockets, the Government have taken it out in two ways. They have increased taxation, which they promised to cut, and they have increased the cost of living through VAT increases and other means. The Prime Minister's election promise has proved to be a complete and utter fraud—a swindle. People were a little gullible and many of them fell for that promise and voted the Government into office. By heaven, they have suffered for it in the past two years and they will go on suffering for some while yet.
    We heard a great deal from the Conservatives when they were in opposition about the plight of middle income earners. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley will remember hearing from Conservative Members terrible tales about the hardship suffered by middle income earners under the Labour Government. Under the Tory Government, those people are doing even worse. Their mortgages have gone up, their cost of living has gone up and now they are not even to get the tax reliefs promised to them by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister before they took office.
    On 1 April that group will be hit by another blow—the increased national insurance contributions. The Chancellor and the Prime Minister promised to help those people, but they will face swingeing increases of about £4 a week in their contributions. That has not hit them yet, but it will do so on 1 April and they will realise that the Government do not hit only the poor; they also hit the middle managers, who, they claimed before the election, were the salvation of our country. Everyone except the very rich has learned the hard lesson of Toryism: Tories help only their friends.
    When I heard about the increase in the petrol tax I remembered the battle that the Labour Government had to fight when they wanted to put 5p a gallon on petrol. Even

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    some of my hon. Friends did not agree with that proposal. Conservative Members said that it was a dastardly proposal, that it would cripple those in rural areas and cause hardship to their constituents because they would not be able to get to work. Am I not right?
    Mr. Cryer: Yes, indeed.
    Mr. Stoddart: I remember when I was a Government Whip listening to all those complaints with a bowed head. How sorry I felt for the people in Wiltshire and elsewhere. The Tories almost made me cry—though not quite, because, having lived in South Wales before the war, I knew that they were, as they are now, the party of unemployment.
    Now that the Government are imposing an extra 20p on a gallon of petrol, what will those Conservative Members say to their rural constituents? Has the House ever heard such hypocrisy? I hope that all the Conservative Members who complained at the Labour Government's proposal to put 5p a gallon on petrol—the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was among those who complained—will rise against the Chancellor of the Exchequer and ensure that the increase in petrol tax is thrown out by the combined votes of my hon. Friends and the Tories who moaned so much about the Labour Government's proposal.
    The increase in the price of petrol will affect not only rural areas. It will also affect those on shift work in Swindon, Keighley and elsewhere. There are no bus services to take them to work. Indeed, bus fares will almost certainly rise as a result of the increase in petrol tax, so fewer people will use the buses, there will be fewer buses and rural areas and others will be further cut off. I hope that Conservative Members will remember what they said two or three years ago.
    I suppose that the most fraudulent part of the Budget is the failure to index-link tax allowances.
    Mr. Hornewood: Rub it in, David. The Financial Secretary is here.
    Mr. Stoddart: The Financial Secretary to the Treasury was Opposition Whip on the Finance Bill Committee in 1977 when I was the Government Whip.
    Mr. Lyell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Stoddart: No. The hon. Gentleman was not on the Finance Bill Committee.
    The Financial Secretary did his best to organise a conspiracy to undermine the then Labour Government. I remember some of the closed meetings he arranged to try to embarrass the Government. I remember his speeches in Committee and on Report when he said that he believed in indexation of tax allowances—not only the basic allowance, but all allowances right up the scale.
    Mr. Homewood: The Financial Secretary is nodding his head.
    Mr. Stoddart: The Financial Secretary said that he believed in the indexation of all taxes. Two of my hon. Friends at that time also wanted to index tax allowances and for the best of motives. They had a good case, because they were trying to help the poor in our community by raising the tax threshold. They were doing a good job and they meant what they were saying.
    The Financial Secretary supported indexation of tax allowances for nasty political purposes. He cannot deny that. If he were honest about his desire to help taxpayers,
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    he would not now be sitting on the Government Front Bench. He would have resigned. Indeed, if he had any honour left he could still resign. The right hon. Gentleman said that he fought for the indexation of tax allowances and if he said he fought for it, he must have done so. He also said that he meant it. If he meant it, he should not be sitting on the Government Front Bench.
    The Government of which the right hon. Gentleman is still a member, unfortunately—he should have resigned—forced this change, when in opposition, against the will of the Government of the day. They have now completely ratted on it. Not only have they not index-linked the tax allowances but they have given no increase in tax allowances at all. By sleight of hand and by cunning, they have increased the standard rate of tax by 3p in the pound.
    I hope sincerely that the right hon. Gentleman, if he does not resign beforehand, will go home tonight and sleep uneasily in his bed and that, having slept uneasily with a bad conscience, he will go to the Prime Minister tomorrow morning and say"Madam, I can no longer serve you because I would feel dishonoured and besmeared if I supported the Chancellor in not doing what he said he would do and what I wanted him to do in Opposition."
    Mr. Michael Spicer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Stoddart: Was the hon. Gentleman on the Finance Bill Committee?
    Mr. Spicer: The hon. Gentleman seems to be making a big issue out of this necessity to index. Will he remind the House how he voted on indexation?
    Mr. Stoddart: Certainly. I voted against it. However, we are not talking about me. We are talking about the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The fact of the matter is that he did vote for it. Now he is not doing it. He is going to vote against it. I am sure that he is a man of honour. I appeal to him, as a man of honour, to put that little letter on the desk in No. 10 Downing Street.
    I wish to refer to the need for stimulating the economy through public works. The right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) did very well. The right hon. Gentleman put forward many projects that the Government should consider. One of them was electrification of the railways, which would not only modernise the railway system but would also make use of much of the spare capacity in the electricity system, as revealed in the Select Committee report on energy. Many things could be done, such as modernising the railways, building more houses, building better roads, and improving our public services which are declining into a state of disgraceful squalor.
    There is much to be done. I support entirely the call by the right hon. Member for Taunton. I would, however, say to the right hon. Gentleman and also to the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne)—it is a pity that both have left the Chamber—that it is no use trying to suck up to the Government when they make such proposals, which are in accordance with Labour Party policy, while at the same time saying that the nationalised industries are not doing a good job, that they are wasteful and that they should be privatised. That will not wash.
    British Leyland was not nationalised because the Labour Party was so bigoted that it wanted to nationalise the motor industry in this country. It was nationalised

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    because it collapsed under private enterprise. The old BLMC failed to manage that industry properly and distributed profits when those profits should have been reinvested in the industry. It was not the Labour Party that nationalised Rolls-Royce or Upper Clyde Shipbuilders. Those who criticise the nationalised industries should remember that many of the troubles now experienced by them are the result of the Government policy of deflation.
    This is the worst Budget that I have ever heard. It has been introduced by the worst and the most oppressive Government since the end of the war. The people are sick of them. It is time they resigned.
    8.25 pm
    Mr. Anthony Grant: The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) seems to be getting more like a poor man's Michael Foot. All he has discovered is the unremarkable fact that parties when in opposition say rather dafter things than when in Government—a fact that he might now well reflect upon. I wish to refer more to the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) whose speech was extremely brave and thoughtful. I regret that it was met with some degree of vindictiveness by Opposition Members. My right hon. Friend has shown a great deal more guts than many Opposition Members. He should be heard with respect in the House.
    The right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), leading for the Opposition, received great cheers from his own side. His speech was splendid for its rhetoric. There were however, at least two aspects of it which I do not believe will bear examination in the cold light of dawn. The right hon. Gentleman worked himself up into a most tremendous lather about unemployment. Perspiration appeared on his brow and great cheers from the Opposition Benches greeted his remarks. I regard what he said as humbug to a very substantial degree.
    I recall, when the Conservative Party was formerly in office, unemployment reaching the 1 million mark. I remember the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) going berserk, being beside himself and thumping the Dispatch Box. I remember the shouts.
    I had some responsibility for regional policy. At the time I left office the unemployment figure had come down to 600,000. I recall the present Leader of the Opposition, with all the splendid rhetoric that he manages rather better than the hon. Member for Swindon, saying that Labour would speak with a loud voice and raise the roof about unemployment reaching the disgraceful figure of 600,000. Within two years of the Labour Party getting into office and the right hon. Gentleman having responsibility directly for employment, the figure went up by 1 million to 1,600,000. I believe, passionately, that unemployment is a disaster for the country and for individuals, but I shall never take any lessons from Opposition Members on unemployment. It is a lot of humbug.
    The second aspect of the speech of the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar that does not bear examination is his airy talk of an export-led boom. That is fine in rhetoric, but if the policies that dominate the Opposition are carried to fruition we shall become a tightly protected, narrow little country resistant to all outside trade. What is needed is not that we should buy British but that we should sell British. We shall not be able to trade
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    in the world if the policies advocated by the Opposition, with their ever-increasing protectionist attitude, are allowed to come into effect. Far from having an export-led boom we shall become a narrow, closed, East European-type State so beloved of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). We must take much of what the Opposition say with a substantial pinch of salt.
    I turn to the Budget itself. Like many Budgets it could be described as a curate's egg—good in parts. I strongly support the Government's measures to help the disabled and the blind. I am vice-president of the Middlesex Disabled Drivers Association and the Harrow Association for the Disabled. I know that the measures recommended are precisely those that they have been urging on the Government for some time.
    Had a Labour Chancellor, in the same circumstances, introduced such a measure, the House would have been awash with tears of compassion. Labour Members would have rolled about, their eyes filled with piety, full of compassion for what he had done. I hope that my hon. Friends will ram home the fact that the Government have taken action, which I very much welcome, to help the disabled.
    I also strongly support the measures to help small firms. We must not forget that they have taken a substantial battering during the past two years. The two points reduction in minimum lending rate, the action on energy prices and the reforms of capital taxes are all to be welcomed. I work in a small firm from time to time and I know that those measures have been pressed upon the Government for a long time. However, they are better late than never.
    I welcome the new measures to encourage business start-ups and investment in small firms. They are necessary for a reason that the Financial Secretary will appreciate. There is nothing wrong with youngsters in Britain. They are neither lazy nor idle. They are full of entrepreneurial spirit, and will work for 23 out of 24 hours. But ever-increasing numbers do it in what is called the black economy. They want to opt out of the complicated and trembling tax, social security and form-filling systems that have been imposed, especially by the Labour Government, on the small firms sector. That is a disturbing factor. We must take the matter seriously. It is happening in other countries.
    I hope that the measures to help small firms will discourage young enthusiasts from simply opting out of society and working in the black economy. I hope that they will try to work within the system and develop in that way. If that does not work, I encourage the Government to be even more adept in their action to liberate small firms and the entrepreneurs and to remove the shackles and burdens on them.
    I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Mitchell), who in his previous position at the Department of Industry fought hard for small firms. Having done that job myself I know how difficult it is when up against Treasury Ministers and mandarins. He has done very well indeed.
    That leads me to what I regard as the worst side of the Budget. I am glad the Financial Secretary is in his place. I am concerned about the index-linking of tax relief. No doubt my right hon. Friend will reply in his usual robust way. I have been worried about the Rooker-Wise-Lawson amendment—if I dare use that phrase—for a long time. I

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    took the trouble to reread the debate on Report. The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) debated with my right hon. Friend. I do not always—or indeed often—agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but on that occasion I found his arguments convincing. They carried the conviction that index-linking of tax relief in isolation is a distortion. It encourages some degree of dishonesty, in its broadest sense, by giving a weapon to Governments. It is undesirable for the reasons that he explained clearly.
    If the Chancellor now proposes to abolish that policy by resolution, subject to what is said, I shall be inclined not only to support it but to welcome it. We must return to a more honest approach to Treasury matters. However, I shall not pursue that matter now. My hon. Friend the Member for Grantharn (Mr. Hogg) looks rather pregnant, so I shall give way on this occasion.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: I do not look at all pregnant. I fail to understand why the Rooker-Wise measure is dishonest. It seems essentially dishonest if we do not make it clear that the increase in personal allowances is not related to the increase in the cost of living. If that is made clear, there is no dishonesty.
    Mr. Grant: Perhaps"dishonesty" is too strong a word. I contend that it is clearer if Governments have to say straightforwardly on each occasion why they are increasing allowances and why they are not. I should prefer the system that prevailed previously.
    Mr. Michael Spicer: Is my hon. Friend saying that he would have changes in the rate of taxation rather than changes in the rates of allowance?
    Mr. Grant: I am merely seeking to agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I presume that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury agrees with him. We must get rid of the automatic index-linking of personal allowances year after year.
    One of our cardinal policies when we were in Opposition and when our policies were being framed was that there should be a decisive shift of the burden from direct to indirect taxation. I hope that that is still our policy and that it will remain so in future. If that ceases to be our policy, we shall have taken a somersault and proceeded in the opposite direction. We must move away from direct taxation, which is a tax on work and enterprise, towards a tax on spending, which is indirect taxation.
    I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer) is in the Chamber. He said yesterday:
    "This Administration came into office dedicated to the view that the basic problem of our economy was that there had been an excess of public spending as against private production, and that there was an excess of spending on consumption as against production and measures to encourage production."—[Official Report, 10 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c. 796.]
    I agree with him entirely. Viewed in that context, the Chancellor's policy is right. However, having come into office with the control of public expenditure being central to our policy, and having had the greatest experts known to mankind arguing that that should be our policy, it is a great disappointment that after nearly two years so little has been achieved. This is a great irritation to the private sector and especially to small firms. They think of the pain and suffering that they have experienced while the public sector has not been tackled.
    As my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) said, current expenditure always gallops ahead
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    instead of capital expenditure. For example, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment announces that we must control the rate support grant. Chief executives and finance officers in every local authority say to their chairmen and members"We can cut out that old people's home. We cannot repair that road. We will not have that invalid children's school." That means that not one solitary architect leaves the planning department, not one assistant solicitor's clerk leaves the legal department and not one person leaves the tea-making department, which means that there are no cuts in current expenditure.
    We all know about the Clegg commission. It was a disaster that we ever became involved in the ludicrous tomfoolery that we inherited from the previous Labour Government. Now that the Clegg system is dead and we are able to stand firm, it is right that the civil servants should be a test of the Government's will and determination. It will not be understood by business men or, if I dare say so, by Government Back Bench Members if the Government give way. However, I am sure that they will not.
    With the situation as it is, the Chancellor had no alternative but to follow the strategy that he followed. He is a man of great integrity. He has been a colleague of mine for many years. He is not obstinate; he is thoroughly sensible. He would put the interests of the nation before airy-fairy theories. He is right on this occasion; but I ask him to consider whether there is a danger of hitting too hard at a time of recession. I ask him to use his judgment and considerable common sense and to forget about the professors and academics. Whether of the Right or Left, they are, in isolation, always wrong. When things go wrong, they can run away. They have no responsibility. The Government and the Chancellor have to remain firm and see us through the difficulties. I have absolute faith that my right hon. and learned Friend will do that.
    Let us take note of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton said. We must not be too gloomy and depressed. Let us look on the bright side. Other countries envy our energy resources, our ability and our initiative. We have more Nobel prize winners than the Japanese and Americans put together. Much of our industry and many of our companies are in far better shape than they were two, three or four years ago. We have a degree of political stability, as they say abroad.
    The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) likened us to the British troops at the battle of the Somme—we shall all be decimated. Perhaps we did suffer heavy casualties at the battle of the Somme, but we won the First World War and we shall win this one.
    8.42 pm
    Mr. Bill Homewood: It was entertaining to listen to the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant), but I do not believe that he made a serious contribution. Of course he is not gloomy or depressed. He starts off with a salary of £11,750 as a Member of Parliament and probably picks up a hell of a lot more somewhere else. His expense account is not too bad either.
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: Raise the level.
    Mr. Homewood: I will not raise the level. It is about time that Conservative Members started to lower the level to the people who will suffer from the Budget. That is what we are talking about.

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    Unemployment in my constituency is on average 16 per cent. It is 22 per cent. in one town. The unemployed were looking to the Budget for hope that things would improve. What is in the Budget? It gives us another dose of substantial deflation. Unemployment will increase. When I listen to Conservative Members, it becomes abundantly clear that they are not interested in that.
    I will now raise the level of debate. We cannot afford more deflation. I take on board what has been said about the part that the Financial Secretary played over tax thresholds. The situation is no less serious now than it was then, because it will have a marked effect on demand in this country.
    I wish to raise the level of the argument to the point at which we look for something which will help my constituents to get out of a situation in which they are not only unemployed but may expect to remain so for a long period. I believe that the Government have got the whole thing upside down. One has only to consider the terms that they use. We hear a great deal about monetarism. Another brilliant phrase came up tonight which I had never heard before. I think that it was the"long-term comparative debt market". What on earth that means, I do not know any more than my constituents will. What I do know is that they are looking for some solution to their problems.
    It is my belief that, since the early 1950s, not only in this country but throughout the entire Western industrial world, most economies have been propped up on the production of durable consumer goods such as fridges, washing machines, televisions, cars and so on. There is no longer any simple economic equation between money supply and demand. I believe that in the present situation one may mess about as much as one likes with fiscal and monetary arrangements, but one will still fail to induce the demand that is necessary to put our people back to work.
    Perhaps I think more deeply about these matters than Conservative Members because I concern myself absolutely with the question of unemployment. I recognise that inflation is serious, but I believe that in our economic and social arrangements it has been overtaken by the need to do something about unemployment.
    If the rise in gross national product and the increase in living standards in the 1950s and early 1960s was pinned on the first acquisition of those durable consumer goods by the vast majority of the population and the situation has now changed, we must examine that situation. I speak from experience of this. In the 1950s, I worked in the steel industry. During those years I acquired my first television set and my first car. All around me, my workmates in industry were doing exactly the same. After those first acquisitions had been made, one began to look for replacements.
    The British people, unlike the Americans, are not inclined to the concept of obsolescence. We keep things for a long time. We have a natural instinct, not to hoard, but to use everything for as long as it gives satisfactory service. To cite a personal example, only the other day the flap on the cooker in my house started to fall away because a spring was going. When I suggested buying a new one, my wife said"Good God, no—it only needs a new spring." We have had that cooker for 17 years.
    That is the problem that we must start to examine now. Demand is falling because in many respects people have
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    already accumulated what they need. But at the same time there has been a rapid increase in technological development which is increasing supply dramatically.
    Just before Christmas, a delegation from Philips, the electrical company, met the Labour Party industrial committee. They explained how productivity, coupled with the value of the pound, had hit their exports. During that discussion, the leader of the delegation made a remark which stuck in my mind. He said that when colour televisions first came into use in this country, which is not that long ago, it took one man three 10-hour shifts to assemble a colour television. Nowadays, one man can assemble a colour television in 1½ hours.
    Given that situation, where will we find the indigenous demand in order to create a home market which will provide a satisfactory base from which we can launch the export and investment-led expansion which has been talked about on both sides of the House?
    My reason for speaking so early in the debate is that I believe that, throughout the industrialised world, supply will now outstrip demand to such a degree that unless we act wisely the economic system, be it a capitalist or mixed economy, could collapse altogether. It is now essential for us to create demand for our products in the Third world. However, unless we are also prepared to recycle and redistribute our own income and wealth, and create the same demand among our own poorer groups, we shall never cure the terrible unemployment we now face.
    If we are to achieve the competitive environment about which Conservative Members talk so frequently, and if we are to create the demand for the goods that will be produced, we must recognise that we are no longer facing a supply problem.
    Earlier today, my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) spoke about tackling the problem from the supply end. He spoke about supply economics, control of the money supply, increased productivity and a lowering of the PSBR. He talked about those things to challenge them. Frankly, I believe that we have already passed that stage. We have talked about supply economics for so long that it has become an obsession. We are destroying ourselves by not looking at the other side of the coin.
    A worthwhile economy can be created by lower costs and prices; it can equally be attained by rising demand. Unless we do something about this almost immediately, we shall be in trouble. The Budget is diabolical. Nowhere does it recognise that in giving aid to small industries nothing is changed unless demand is created for their goods.
    8.55 pm
    Mr. Douglas Hogg: In view of the lateness of the hour, and as I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you wish the winding-up speakers to commence immediately, I shall cut short my remarks. I was hoping to have a few nice words to say about the Budget, thus commending myself to my right hon. and hon. Friends.
    Representing as I do an agricultural constituency, I am very pleased about the capital transfer tax concessions that have been made in respect of rented land. I am certain that these concessions will increase the amount of land available for letting that will come on to the market, and I am grateful for the concession.
    I would, however, express my disquiet about another aspect of the Budget which troubles me deeply. I begin by

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    touching on a matter that has been touched on by other hon. Members, namely, the increased Excise duties on petrol and oil. Again, I speak as one who represents a rural area. For us these increased burdens are of a substantial nature. For us the use of a car is a necessity, not a luxury. People have to drive to work and to the shops and the effect of these proposals is severe.
    My quarrel goes further. It goes to the entire cost of the Budget. First, the Budget depresses demand. Although I am pleased to see the Chief Secretary on the Front Bench, I cannot share his view that the Budget does not depress demand. Secondly, it raises the cost of living by 2 per cent. in a full year. I am reluctant to see that happen at this time. One of the great successes that has been achieved over the past 18 months is the substantial diminution in the rate of inflation. I am wary of supporting any proposal that will put that success at risk.
    That being so, I approach the Budget with considerable caution. We are being asked to put up prices in the short term so as to cut them in the long term. That proposition is fraught with danger, and we must determine that we are going in the right way. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in support of his stand, is saying that we cannot sustain a public sector borrowing requirement in excess of £10.5 billion and that the whole campaign must be directed to reducing the PSBR to that level.
    Here I feel real anxiety. We are asked to approve measures that will result in increased costs to our constituents. I am entitled to, and do, ask of the Financial Secretary what would be the effect in terms of increased interest rates and of inflationary pressures if we were to operate at a higher level of PSBR. What would be the effect on the economy if we tried to sustain a PSBR of £12 billion? What would be the effect on interest rates and on the rate of inflation?
    I am faced with this conundrum. I am being asked to put up prices in the Budget, and I am being asked to support those proposals without being told what would be the effect of supporting a PSBR of about £12 billion. If we could support that level of PSBR, many of the burdens which are being contemplated by the Budget would disappear.
    Many Conservative Members wonder whether, in a time of recession, we should pursue such a tight PSBR policy. I am not saying that the Front Bench is wrong, but if we are being asked to support those policies, which have marked and certain disadvantages, we must be told what would be the cost of following an alternative policy, and in particular what would be the cost of sustaining a PSBR of £12 billion. I ask that there be no generalities: let us be specific.
    9.1 pm
    Mr. Robin F. Cook: I hope that I shall not cast a perpetual blight over the aspiring career of the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) if I say that he has talked more sense in the last three minutes than many of his colleagues in 20-minute speeches. I hope that the late hour at which he was called will not prevent the Financial Secretary from giving a considered and full reply to the pointed questions asked by his colleague in his short intervention.
    We have had a good debate. Hon. Members who have sat through previous Budget debates will be aware that the first day of the Budget debate is challenging, because those who speak in the debate speak immediately after the
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    Budget package has been revealed and have not had full time to consider its contents. I hope that I shall not be thought to detract from the achievement of those who took part in today's debate if I say that their task has been made perhaps easier as the Budget has been extensively trailed throughout the papers for the past two months. On Sunday I read a quotation in The Sunday Times from the chairman of the Conservative industry committee, who welcomed the Budget package on small businesses. I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on scoring a new first. He is the first Chancellor of the Exchequer who has managed to have his Budget welcomed 48 hours before it was unveiled to the House.
    The press did not prepare us for one major part of the Budget package. Since January, when the Prime Minister called in three members of the Lobby and told them that she had had a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and had advised him that she would not let him put up the standard rate of income tax, we have been softened up by the press warning us that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not index the personal allowances by the full rate of inflation. No paper prepared us for the fact that there would be no increase whatsoever in those personal allowances. No paper prepared us for the event that the Government have failed to put a single penny on the personal allowances, for which there is no precedent, right back to the Budget of 1968, when inflation was 2½ per cent. per annum. It was therefore right that some speakers, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), should have concentrated on that point and reminded us that a distinguished member of the Treasury team played a leading part in putting on to the statute book a provision which obliged the Government to attempt the indexation of personal allowances.
    The Chief Secretary, who represents that great industrial town in the North, Whitby, tried to imply that that measure will bear most heavily, in percentage terms, on those who earn the most. I intervened in his speech to try to put the record straight. I shall now take the opportunity to deal with that matter at great length. Figures have been prepared for me by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. They compare two outcomes. The first is where personal allowances and Excise duties are indexed by inflation, but by no more than inflation, and the other is what happened in practice in the Budget which was unveiled to the House yesterday. The figures are interesting. The household the institute has taken contains a man who is working and a wife who is not—that implies no judgment about the sexes but is simply the way the BBC asked it to frame the figures—with two children. The effect of the Budget is as follows. The household in which the income is £3,500 a year is worse off by £3.89 a week. The household in which the income is £7,000 a year is worse off by £4.67. Where the income of the household is £15,000 a year, the family is worse off by £5.69.
    The House will note the very shallow progression in tax as the incomes rise steeply. The impact is a 6 per cent. cut for the low income household and a 2 per cent. cut for the household with the highest income, an income which is double the national average. The Government cannot now pretend that the Budget does anything other than penalise the low income earner most
    It is perhaps relevant to remind the Government how they began. They did so with generous tax handouts to the wealthy. Those hon. Members who sat through the debates on that first Budget with me will remember the sense of

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    triumph and rejoicing with which those handouts were celebrated. The vision held out to us was a thrusting and robust economy that was to be released by that"incentives Budget."
    I remember the Secretary of State for Industry telling us that entrepreneurs would be galvanised by those tax incentives. When we asked him whether all entrepreneurs would be so galvanised, he said"No, not all, but some." Where are all those brave hopes now? Where are our galvanised entrepreneurs? As we survey the wreck of the economy over the past two years we perceive that that elegant theory of tax incentives regenerating the British economy was no more than saloon bar prejudice.
    We can quantify who gained and who lost in the first two Budgets. The break-even point was somewhere between £10,000 and £12,500 a year. Only those earning more than £200 a week paid less in tax as a result of the Government's first two Budgets. That means that it was those who were at the least comfortable, and, in some cases, clearly wealthy who benefited. That is what the rhetoric of the nation being overtaxed turned out to mean, and that was how the Government began handling the fiscal affairs of the country.
    How has it ended? The result has been to increase the tax on everybody else. The Government have applied the acid maxim of Vidal.
    "It is not enough to succeed; others must fail."
    It is not enough that the wealthy should get wealthier; the poor must get poorer. The low income tax payers have already been hit twice. They have been hit by the abolition of the reduced rate band and by the increase in the national insurance contribution. Now they are to be hit hardest by thresholds that will fall under a Government who put out a manifesto claiming that they would raise tax thresholds. That fall will be most marked for elderly women between 60 and 65 who do not qualify for the age allowance and who will now find that for the first time since 1945 they are eligible to pay tax on the State pension. The House must consider whether it is right, proper or even decent for elderly women of that age to be asked to shoulder the tax burden imposed by the Government to enable them to secure their objectives.
    There is another interesting and illuminating example of what the Government's policy means, which we can find by looking over the pages of history. The Chancellor said yesterday that he would not increase VAT. I should think not. When he increased VAT in the June 1979 Budget he established a clear link between that increase and the cuts in income tax. He said
    "the increase I make must be sufficient to provide for substantial and worthwhile reductions in income tax."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 250.]
    That last phrase should be stressed. The income tax cuts have gone. The thresholds are lower than when the Chancellor of the Exchequer took office. More people are paying tax now than when the Chancellor of the Exchequer took office. As a result of the abolition of the reduced rate band, they are also starting to pay tax at a higher rate than when he took office. In addition, VAT has been doubled.
    If the right hon. and learned Gentleman had any political integrity he would have cut VAT yesterday to the level at which he found it when he came into office. He raised VAT on the ground that he would cut the burden of income tax. However, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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    will not reply to the debate. As the Financial Secretary will reply, we should look at some of his words. Out of their own mouths shall they be condemned. I remember not only the sterling work done by the Financial Secretary in securing the passage of the Rooker-Wise-Lawson amendment—on which he is now ratting—but also a speech that he made in 1979. He took the view that the increase in the retail price index, which reflected the increase in indirect taxes, was not a fair reflection of the cost of living under this Government. He argued that those increases were offset by the cuts in income tax. Indeed, the Financial Secretary invented a whole new set of statistics to take care of the position. He invented the tax and prices index. When he introduced that he spoke about wage bargainers. He offered them the following advice:
    "But what I do say, and most firmly, is this: if you want a general guide to changes in the total costs facing taxpayers, look at the TPI, not the RPI. It is a much truer guide."
    We must ask the Financial Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether they still give that advice to wage bargainers. In every month since July last year the tax and prices index has risen faster than the retail price index. I predict that as a result of yesterday's Budget, the tax and prices index will rise faster next month by two points than the retail price index.
    I shall make another prediction. I suspect that the tax and prices index is about to become a victim of Sir Derek Rayner's review of Government statistical services. The brave new light that the Financial Secretary lit for wage bargainers will be snuffed out on a dark night by Sir Derek Rayner. I make one plea to the right hon. Gentleman. Will the right hon. Gentleman please let us have the tax and prices index for at least one month which will show the new indirect taxes and the new income levels with the old tax thresholds that have survived from last year? Let us have just one month of that index. That will show just how much the Government have penalised the taxpayer and how much they have hit the taxpayer's cost of living.
    There is another dimension to the Budget's impact on individual households, namely, its impact on benefits. Two years ago the Government slashed the higher tax rate from 83 per cent. to 60 per cent. on what the Chief Secretary described as"humanitarian grounds". The same Government now wish to claw back a miserable 1 per cent. from the pension on the ground of over-provision. It must take necks of brass to describe the State pension as an"over-provision".
    I wonder whether those who call the pension an"over-provision" have been in the homes of those dependent solely on State pensions. I wonder whether they have ever trodden a floorboard without carpet or seen the meal that is laid out in such a home. I wonder whether they have ever come across an elector—as I have—who is sitting down to a supper of boiled potatoes. Have they ever wondered what it is like not to buy new clothes for five years running? If they knew what that was like they would not describe the pension as an"over-provision".
    The pensioner is not over-provided for. The Government have smashed the link with the rise in incomes. Yesterday, in his Budget speech and in his broadcast to the nation the right hon. and learned Gentleman emphasised the extent to which income earners who worked had done well and had kept ahead of prices. He made a virtue of the fact that incomes had increased faster than prices. Therefore, it is all the more vile and wicked to break the link between the increase in pensions

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    and the increase in incomes. If that link had been preserved before yesterday's Budget the pension household of a married couple would be receiving £1·40 more than it was. It would be receiving £2·05 more as a result of yesterday's Budget. That is not an over-provision but an under-provision. That should be restored to that household.
    The right hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) had words about this to offer. That right hon. Gentleman left the Labour Party because he was moderate and we were extreme. On the basis of his speech, it now looks as though he is about to drift apart from the Tory Party because he is extreme and that party is too moderate. He suggested a solution to the problem—and the uprating. One would not then have to worry about linking it to prices or incomes. He went further. He said we should abolish the £10 Christmas bonus because people complained that it was not enough. We should abolish the death grant because people complained that was not enough. If people complain that the figure is not enough, let us abolish it totally. That would remove the problem and we should no longer have to argue about it.
    All households receiving benefit are worse off under the Conservative Government than they would have been under the legislation that existed when we left office. People in receipt of long-term benefit are worse off because the Government have broken the link with rises in incomes. Beneficiaries in receipt of short-term benefits are worse off because of the 5 per cent. impost that the Government have levied in lieu of taxation. If they are in receipt of child benefit, they are worse off by 50p as a result of the Government's failure to uprate child benefit in 1979—a failure that has not been made good in the Budget.
    Yet the social security budget has soared, despite the cuts in welfare benefits, because the numbers in receipt of social security have soared. I shall consider the effect of yesterday's Budget on the economy. Why have the numbers in receipt of social security increased under the Government? They have increased for the simple reason that the Government keep deflating the economy in successively desperate attempts to cut public expenditure. The havoc they have created over the past two years in seeking to cut public expenditure is impressive. We have witnessed the cuts in benefits to which I have referred. We have witnessed crumbling education standards. We have witnessed the collapse of the house building programme.
    A distinguished member of a former Conservative Cabinet is chairman of a housing association in my city. Last week he released a statement saying that his housing association would shortly complete 25 sheltered housing units for which there are 900 applicants. That is the measure of what the Government have done to the house building programme.
    The Government have created a crisis of investment in the nationalised industries. They have forced up prices in the public sector. As a result of the cash squeeze on public sector industries, public sector prices have increased by double the rate of the retail price index. One of the most inane features of the monetarist dogma of Conservative Members is that they have allowed themselves to be trapped into the perverse logic that when they push up the prices of public sector goods they thereby push down inflation.
    When one surveys that havoc, one is tempted to say that the efforts of the Government to cut public expenditure have indeed been impressive. They should not pay too
    970
    much heed to the right hon. Member for Daventry. They have tried. They deserve 10 out of 10 for effort. Yet they have been brought up face to face with a curious phenomenon. Every time that they cut public expenditure by reducing services it bobs up again—forced up by the costs of the increase in unemployment which is created by cutting services. I have news for the Government. They will never cut public expenditure fast enough to catch up with the increase in public spending caused by deflationary cuts. My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) dealt with that perfectly. He said, correctly, that the Government have created an automatic destabiliser. Every drop in output is reinforced by further cuts in public expenditure until the economy is locked in a tailspin down towards the ground, towards the crash. As we approach the ground and the crash, we hear the voice of the Chief Secretary telling us that it is important to cut public expenditure because of the crowding out theory. It is an insult to the intelligence of the House to suggest that, in an economy with the kind of spare capacity that we can see with our own eyes, and hear with our own ears, there is a crowding out problem.
    One might have though that a spark of doubt had been kindled in the Chancellor's mind by the volume of criticism that he received last week. There was a report from the CB1, introduced by the director-general, with the words that unless there was a change of course the prospects were"profoundly depressing".
    There was a report from the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee. One would not have thought that there had been a report from the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee listening to the speeches from the Government Dispatch Box during the past two days, but there was such a report. Indeed, as my hon. Friends the Members for Motherwell and Wishaw and Swindon pointed out, that report overwhelmingly made the case that any cut in inflation achieved by controlling the money supply would be grossly outweighed by the penalties imposed on output to such a degree that no rational man would choose that method of controlling inflation.
    I was impressed by the response of the Treasury spokesman reported in The Guardian. On the Friday after publication of the Committee's findings The Guardian reported as follows:
    "Reaction from the Treasury last night was distinctly muted. One senior official said that the report was slightly unfair."
    I will settle for that. It was slightly unfair, but the general thrust was right.
    I know that the Chancellor had a very bad week last week. He had the CBI report and the Treasury report. He also lost his pair, who defected to the Social democrats. One would have thought that such a week would have impressed any man. Yet, yesterday we had laid before us a Budget which could have been laid only on the basis that the monetarist theory held by the right hon. and learned Gentleman had been confirmed rather than exploded by the carnage of the past two years. No wonder his colleagues are puzzled. No wonder it is impossible at the moment to cross the Members' Lobby without being knocked down by Ministers rushing out to dissociate themselves from the Budget, saying they were not consulted or they were out of the country on that particular night.
    Again, The Guardian tells us:
    "Even ministers confessed yesterday they could not understand what was going on."

    971
    Ministers who aspire to high office under the Crown have a duty to the nation—a duty to find out and to ask questions of the Treasury team. I should like to suggest two questions that they should ask. First, they should ask: what has happened to the assertion of"bottoming out". It will be remembered that last autumn we were assured that the economy was bottoming out. The Treasury was ambivalent as to what happened next—whether we got out the other side or just crawled along the bottom. But it was going to bottom out.
    If one looks at the Red Book presented yesterday, one searches in vain for any sign of a bottom. If there was a bottom there before the Budget, the Chancellor kicked a big hole in it through which has disappeared every economic indicator.
    I watched the Chancellor's broadcast yesterday very carefully. I noted that he said there were signs of improvement. He said
    "Exports are doing well."
    It was such an extraordinary statement that I wrote it down there and then. If one turns to the appropriate page in the Red Book, one finds the Chancellor predicting that this year exports will fall by 5½ per cent.—the biggest fall of any of the indicators. That is doing well! There is a word to describe the assertion that that is doing well. It is a word that you would not allow me to use, Mr. Deputy Speaker. But it is a word that the Treasury team knows fits that assertion well. I hope that they will take it to heart.
    There is another question that I suggest Ministers might put to the Treasury team: what happened to spontaneous growth? The theory was that when the Chancellor got the conditions right, when he had created the climate which was the whole point of the sacrifices, there would be spontaneous growth within the economy.
    The hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne)—who I am sorry to see has retired to his bank—in a celebrated speech, in which is to be found the final term which I think will go down in history as a description of the Budget—"a last-hope Budget"—urged the Chancellor not to throw away all the effort of the past two years. What has that effort been for? What have the sacrifices been for? Where will the spontaneous growth come from? It will not come from investment, because that will fall. It will not come from the public sector, because expenditure there will fall. It will not come from the consumer, because his expenditure will fall. It will not come from exports, because they will crash. The Chancellor may say that it will come from small businesses, and that the great resurgence of the economy will come from the unemployed ploughing back redundancy payments into setting up as jobbing contractors.
    It is grotesque of this Government to say that they are the champion of the small business man. This Government have presided over more liquidations than in any year since records have been kept, and those liquidations have contributed to the mounting toll of the unemployed, about which my hon. Friends the Members for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher) and Kettering (Mr. Homewood) have spoken with such feeling.
    Until recently, it would have been inconceivable that, at a time when there are 2½ million unemployed, a Chancellor of the Exchequer could come to the Dispatch Box and lay a Budget which failed to reduce that level of
    972
    unemployment. It beggars belief that, at such a time, he can lay a Budget that is designed to increase the level of unemployment. Yet that is what he has done.
    The White Paper on public expenditure forecasts an increase in unemployment to 2·7 million. We must judge that forecast increase against our historic experience of the Chancellor's predictions last year. Last spring, he warned us that unemployment by early 1981 might be 1·8 million. By June, he had revised that figure and was warning us that, by early 1981, it might be 2 million. By August unemployment was 2 million. The Chancellor then made a speech in which he had the brass neck to claim that this proved that his policies were working faster than he had anticipated.
    If our experience is any guide, we should add 700,000 to the figure that is given in the White Paper. Even if the Government have halved the margin of error from last year, there will still be an unemployment rate of 3 million by the end of this year. Are they prepared to tolerate that? What level of unemployment are the Government not prepared to tolerate? That is the question that the House is entitled to ask.
    I was struck by a letter in my local paper from one of my constituents who had advertised a single vacancy and was overwhelmed by applications. He concluded his letter by saying:
    "Those who criticise the 'lazy' unemployed should undergo the depressing experience of reading through a bundle of application forms. The anger that one feels at such a waste of human resources is overwhelmed by a numbing sense of powerlessness."
    Yet the Treasury team is not powerless. It can act, and the House and the country are looking for action to reduce unemployment.
    There is a phenomenon in the animal kingdom that is known to zoologists as displacement activity. A herd that is threatened responds with intense irrational activity to distract itself from the danger. There is no way in which I could better describe the activity of the members of the present Treasury team. The more jobs they destroy, the more factories they close, and the faster they erode our industrial capacity to survive, the more compulsively they fuss and fret over how to define the money supply and tinker with monetary control and the longer become the speeches of the Financial Secretary to foreign bankers about the money supply.
    The time has come when the House must force the Treasury team to put aside its monetarist box of tricks and confront the decay of the economy over which it has presided. If the Treasury team is incapable of doing that, it should get out of the way and make room for a Government who can.
    9.29 pm
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Nigel Lawson): The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) made a speech which was worthy of the leader of his party. It was every bit as eloquent, every bit as entertaining and every bit as devoid of content. The hon. Gentleman will clearly go far. He had not a single word to say about the Opposition's policy, what it would do and how it would produce the results that he claims it might produce. I am not sure that I ought to address myself to his remarks, but, as a courtesy, I shall deal with three points that he raised.
    The first matter might concern people outside as well as hon. Members. The hon. Member for Edinburgh,

    973
    Central argued that widows and single women aged between 60 and 65, whose only income is a basic pension, would be liable to tax as a result of the Budget. I assure the House that that is not so. The Inland Revenue has a tolerance for assessment—it does not assess tax below a certain level. That tolerance is £30, which is equivalent to £100 of income at the basic rate. Since the £100 is more than the overlap between the pension and the single person's allowance, it follows that no one in that position will be assessed for tax as a result of the Budget. The use of the tolerance was first proposed by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1976, and we are following his precedent.
    Mr. David Steel: Surely what the Financial Secretary has said would not be true in a full year.
    Mr. Lawson: The figures that I have quoted are authoritative. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me, I shall consider what he says.
    Mr. Steel: I am suggesting that what the right hon. Gentleman said may be true in the coming year, with the increase starting in November, but it will not be true in a full year.
    Mr. Lawson: It is true for the coming year, which is the question that I was asked. As for the future, that remains to be determined.
    The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central asked when the Treasury thought that the economy was likely to bottom out. He said that there was nothing in the Red Book that indicated that there would be any sort of bottoming out. The hon. Gentleman has not read the Red Book with his customary care. If he looks at page 27, he will see that our expectation is—I do not give any guarantee—
    Mr. John Evans: Who would take a guarantee from the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Lawson: Our expectation is that, taking full account of the Budget measures, there will be steady growth over the coming year. From the first half of 1981 to the first half of 1982, there is a projected steady growth of output and particularly of manufacturing output.
    The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central raised another point on which I should like to spend more time, because it affects me personally. The matter was also raised by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), of whom I am fond despite his personal attack on me today, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant). I understand why the hon. Member for Swindon feels so strongly. He is the battle-scarred victim of the Finance Bill Committee of 1977, as a result of which he was so chastened that he resigned from the Whips' Office and has remained on the Back Benches ever since.
    Mr. Stoddart: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I did not resign from the Whips' Office because of that incident.
    Mr. Lawson: It certainly followed that. If the hon. Gentleman cares to tell the House at some stage precisely why he resigned from the Whips' Office, I am sure that we shall be greatly enlightened, illumined and entertained. He is perhaps saving it for his memoirs. At any rate, I am sure that it was a matter of high principle of the kind that I have mentioned.
    974
    The question really is how the position I took up and which the then official Opposition took up over the indexation of personal allowances squares with the decision in the Budget not to make any increase in the personal allowances or the higher rate thresholds which are also subject to the indexation provision. I do not normally—certainly not in a wind-up speech—like to quote from Hansard previous speeches of mine, but I think that it would be appropriate in this case in order to establish what the position was. [Interruption.] I listened patiently to the points made by the hon. Member for Swindon and others, and the House might do me the courtesy of listening to the explanation I am making, particularly since the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Swindon called for my resignation on these grounds. I am afraid that they will not have the pleasure of my resignation on this occasion.
    I should like to quote what I said during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill on 3 June 1980 when the provision that is now the binding indexation provision was introduced into the Bill. I said:
    "The whole purpose of this provision—a purpose which commanded not only my support, but the support of pretty well the whole of the then Conservative Opposition in Standing Committee in 1977 when the earlier provision was introduced—is that there should be truth in taxation; that there should be openness. If we decide to tax people more heavily, fair enough, let us come to Parliament and say that we want to do that, and let us justify it to the House of Commons."
    I went on to say:
    "What was objectionable was allowing inflation steadily by stealth to increase the tax burden—without any explicit changes in law and without any changes in the allowances—and to erode the value of those allowances. That was the argument time and again. That was why I introduced my amendment to the so-called Rooker-Wise amendment in 1977, making it absolutely clear that this was not mandatory"—
    I repeat,"not mandatory"—
    "and that the Government had the opportunity to put before Parliament a different figure if they wished to do so. That is why the clause is drafted with the phrase 'unless Parliament otherwise determines'."—[Official Report, 3 June 1980; Vol. 985, c. 1358–59.]
    That is exactly the position I have always held, and the position that I held in 1977.
    Mr. Stoddart: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman remembers the debate on the Report stage of the Finance Bill on 25 July 1977 when he gave this reason for his amendment, if I may take the time of the House to read it:
    "Let me make clear why I moved the amendment to the amendment originally proposed by the hon. Member for Coventry, South-West. There were two reasons. The first was that in the form in which it was proposed I felt that there was no possibility of its being carried in Committee and certainly no chance of its reaching the statute book. I was concerned to see a measure of indexation on the statute book. Therefore, I proposed my amendment—and I am glad that, for once, it has had the effect I desired."—[Official Report, 25 July 1977; Vol. 936, c. 93.]
    That seems to conflict with what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
    Mr. Lawson: No, it does not. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to read on from columns 93 and 94 of Hansard for 25 July 1977.
    "It was important to make it clear that what we were doing was to say 'Of course the Chancellor must have complete freedom of action, but it must be open, overt.' That is why I put down an amendment to make it clear that it was overt, that the Chancellor could say 'Here is an order, which I want the House to approve, which will mean that the allowances go up by very much less than

    975
    the rise in the cost of living. In fact, they will be reduced in real terms.' Therefore, what we are getting at is truth in taxation. It is not some automaticity, which is a straw man."—[Official Report, 25 July 1977; Vol. 936, c. 94.]
    I have consistently argued that view. Opposition Members have no reason or right to pretend otherwise. I have made my position absolutely clear.
    I am not saying that I welcome the decision not to increase personal allowances. Nor did my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor. As he said in his statement, that decision was taken because of economic circumstances and the need to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement. Under the old system no increase in personal allowances would not have been an issue at all. A clause dealing with the matter would not have been needed in the Finance Bill because the old allowances would have continued. Under the present system we are obliged to include such a clause. It will be debated and no doubt amendments will be proposed and voted on. That position will remain. We are not in any way undoing the requirement for the Government to take action in an open and overt way. This year we are asking the House to agree to keep last year's level of allowances for the coming year.
    I wish to touch on a subject of great importance which has not been touched on in the debate so far. I refer to our overseas indebtedness. When the Government took office, we inherited official overseas debts totalling $22 billion, slightly greater than the total of our official reserves. In our first Budget we set ourselves the objective of securing a substantial reduction in the burden of official external debt during the life of this Parliament. Since then, we have reduced the total debt outstanding to $18 billion.
    I can today announce that we have set in hand arrangements to repay this year the whole of the $2·5 billion Eurodollar loan raised by the Labour Government in 1974, which would otherwise have matured at various dates between now and 1984. Together with the scheduled repayments of other loans falling due in 1981, that prepayment, when completed, will reduce the total of our outstanding official external debt at the end of this year to around $14 billion. Our remaining debt, equivalent to about seven weeks exports, will be—indeed is already—smaller in relation to our foreign currency earnings than at any time since the Second World War. And we shall have achieved that reduction in a period when most other industrial countries have been drawing heavily on their reserves or increasing their international indebtedness.
    With that considerable success behind us, the time has come to review our debt policy for the remainder of this Parliament. Much of our remaining debt is long term, bearing a low interest rate by today's standards. Moreover, the terms and maturity pattern of our outstanding debt provides fewer opportunities for early repayment than in the past. During the remainder of this Parliament, therefore, both gross and net debt repayments must, after the end of this year, be expected to be on a more modest scale than hitherto.
    In addition, following this review, we have decided to amend the criteria by which the exchange equalisation account provides exchange risk cover on borrowing in foreign currency by public sector bodies. In future, official cover will normally be offered only on approved loans through the Community institutions with which we wish
    976
    to maintain a modest programme of borrowing. There are also some occasions when public sector bodies will be able to borrow in foreign currency without cover—for example, if they have a foreign currency income on which they would otherwise be exposed to an exchange risk. Where such borrowers can demonstrate a need for foreign currency finance for their normal commercial transactions, they will be permitted to borrow abroad on appropriate terms. This form of uncovered public sector borrowing is in a totally different category from the official covered borrowing of the past, which was undertaken for Government purposes and in support of the reserves. It is therefore inappropriate to apply the requirements of the official debt repayment programme to it.
    Nevertheless, any overseas finance raised on this uncovered basis will of course continue to be contained within each public corporation's external financing limit; and since it inevitably involves the United Kingdom's credit overseas, and is subject to Government approval by statute, its scale, form, terms and timing will continue to be subject to Government agreement.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: We have recently cleared from the House the Fisheries Bill, which offered to the Sea Fish Industry Authority what the House understood at the time to be just such a cover against fluctuations of the exchange rate for its overseas borrowings as I gather will no longer be available.
    Mr. Lawson: I am not so familiar or expert on the sea fish industry as the right hon. Gentleman, nor perhaps as I should be. But the position that I outlined will obtain as from today.
    Dr. Bray: Does the Treasury envisage the use of the new powers that it is seeking on the amendment of exchange control powers? If so, in what circumstances does it envisage using them? Will the powers be used to influence the exchange rate?
    Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman may know that in May 1980 my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained in a written answer that we intended over a period to make exchange control legislation rather more symmetrical than hitherto, it being hitherto concerned mainly with outflows, and to put it in conformity with the requirement contained in the European Community directive. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no present intention to make use of these powers. The Finance Bill seemed to be the most convenient vehicle to make the necessary legislative changes.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: What would have happened if this provision had not been included in the proposed legislation?
    Mr. Lawson: Precisely nothing. It is not essential, but it is sensible. We considered that as it was sensible for the reasons set out in my right hon. and learned Friend's written answer in May 1980 it would be sensible to include it in the proposed legislation. If the right hon. Gentleman has grave objections, no doubt he will let us know the nature of his objections and we shall consider them with all the gravity that they deserve.
    In an important contribution to the debate my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) praised the medium-term financial strategy, for which I thank him, and the report of his own Committee, the Select

    977
    Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service. Anything that I were to add to the Committee's report would be a work of supererogation. My right hon. Friend mentioned the importance of maintaining and improving the control of public expenditure. As he well knows, the Government are entirely with him on that score. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary devoted a fair amount of his speech to that topic.
    However, my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton was perhaps a little over-simplifying the matter when he suggested that our problem was that we had not paid sufficient heed to the excellent earlier report of his Committee. We are well aware of the need and desirability of cutting public expenditure. We also read his report. However, the difficulties are more of a fundamental, practical, political and, in the case of local government, constitutional nature. There are grave difficulties. I mentioned some of these in greater detail than I have time to do tonight in my speech in Zurich earlier this year. It is clear from the quotation in the Red Book to which my right hon. Friend referred that the Government are fully seized of the need to do better.
    I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his contribution, but the contrast that he made between current and capital spending—which is something that we very much bear in mind—is, nevertheless, sometimes presented in a slightly misleading way, as if current expenditure is a matter simply of administration. In fact, the great bulk, and the great growth area, of current expenditure is transfer payments, above all in the social security field, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Prentice) pointed out. One has to bear that in mind when talking about current and capital expenditure.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Daventry made a notable contribution to the debate. He asked a number of questions that must be asked. [HON. MEMBERS:"Answer them."] I shall make my speech in my own way. I shall certainly not be told what to do by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), whose reputation for making unfounded statements for which he subsequently does not apologise is known throughout the length and breadth of the country.
    Mr. Frank Haynes: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
    Mr. Lawson: The right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) was full of ideas for increasing Government spending and cutting taxation, which is an agreeable pastime for someone who will never be faced with the responsibilities of administering a programme or managing the economy. He had a soupçon of doubt in his mind that big increases in expenditure and cuts in taxation might produce inflation. However, he went on to say that he had run the Liberal model through the Treasury computer and that that proved that it was not inflationary. I must say that he has turned naivety into a way of life. Since the Treasury computer was invented, every Government have run their policies through it, but that has not stopped inflation from getting worse and worse. The right hon. Gentleman will have to do better than that.
    The right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore) was concerned that high interest rates were causing a rise in the pound, which he felt was damaging to British
    978
    industry and the economy. That is strange, bearing in mind that one remembers him at the Department of Economic Affairs fighting hard to keep up the value of the pound and fighting hard every day to prevent devaluation. He now comes here as an arch devaluationist.
    However, let us leave aside the question whether the pound should be pushed up or down. Clearly the right hon. Gentleman alone knows what is the right level for the pound. Only he knows whether it was too low in one period or too high in another. He is very clever at that. What puzzles me is that, if it is interest rates, how can interest rates have caused the pound to rise since the Government took office? Since we took office, the rise in the effective exchange rate of the pound has been 15 per cent. Yet minimum lending rate today, at 12 per cent., is precisely the same as it was when we took office.
    Let us look, then at relative interest rates. The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) will understand this, even though the Opposition Front Bench does not. The right hon. Gentleman may think that relative rates are more important. He is probably right. In so far as interest rates determine exchange rates, it is relative rates which have the main effect on flows of money across the exchanges. But when we took office the prime rate in the United States was 11¾ per cent. Today it is 18per cent. So over this period, relative interest rates in this country have moved very much lower than they were. Yet the exchange rate has risen. The right hon. Gentleman will have to find some other explanation for the increase in the exchange rate.
    In addition to a massive devaluation—or at any rate devaluation; he did not vouchsafe quite how big—the right hon. Gentleman called for massive increases in State spending. There were to be no increases in taxation and huge increases in Government borrowing—again he was not prepared to tell us how big—but he was quite clear that interest rates should come down.
    Dr. Bray Dr. Bray rose—
    Mr. Lawson: In other words, he was saying that the money should be printed—the classic recipe of inflationists throughout the ages.
    This brings me to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) in his short and pertinent speech. He dealt with a matter which I think preoccupies many hon. Members on both sides of the House—the question of the Budget judgment as a whole, and the charge made by the Opposition that the Budget is deflationary. I maintain that is is not a deflationary Budget, although it is certainly an anti-inflationary Budget. That is its main purpose.
    In judging the public sector borrowing requirement, we have taken fully into account the effect of the recession, and in particular the fact that it is proving deeper than we expected when we published the medium-term financial strategy a year ago. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor pointed out in his Budget speech that the effect of the recession on the PSBR in 1981–82 is likely to be even greater than it was in 1980–81. Indeed, our best estimate—obviously rough at the edges—is that the extra severity of the recession has of itself probably added some £2½ billion to the 1980–81 PSBR and will add some £3 billion to the 1981–82 PSBR. It is that additional £3 billion, on top of the £7½ billion originally implied by the medium-term financial strategy when it was launched a year ago as an appropriate PSBR for 1981–82, which

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    explains the Chancellor's Budget judgment that the appropriate PSBR for 1981–82 in current circumstances, taking full account of the recession, is l0½ billion.
    Is the argument that that figure is too low? If, for example, the prospective PSBR for next year, on an unchanged tax basis, had been not £14 billion but, say, £10 billion, would it be argued that there should actually be a reduction of taxation in the Budget? I suspect that it would not. I suspect that the problem is not the Chancellor's judgment in terms of the £10½ billion, but the point from which we were obliged to start—the appalling prospect of a £14 billion PSBR. Like the £13½ billion PSBR for the year now ended, this cannot be explained simply as a consequence of the recession. As I pointed out a moment ago, we reckon that only some £2½ billion of the £5 billion overshoot is due to that.
    There is no getting away from the fact that increased expenditure—whether it is on British Leyland, British Steel or whatever—must be paid for. Those who are concerned that the Budget is deflationary—by which I take it that they mean contractionary—have mistaken the fact that it is monetary conditions which in the last resort determine whether conditions are contractionary or not. So it is not a question of the fiscal stance. It is the relationship between monetary growth and the rate of inflation. Judged by that, there is nothing whatever to suppose that conditions at present, or those set by this Budget, are in any way contractionary.
    Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Boscawen.]
    Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

    Wages Councils
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Boscawen.]
    10 pm
    Mr. Richard Alexander: Wages councils were set up in the 1920s to protect workers from the old sweatshop conditions which existed in those days. When I was a law student in the 1950s, we used to have a law subject called"master and servant". However, we no longer talk in those terms about employees and employers. Labour relations and labour practice have moved on, but we still have wages councils.
    In this short debate, I hope to show that, while wages councils might have been a good thing in the 1920s, things are different 60 years later, and they should no longer be a permanent feature of the industrial and commercial scene. Sixty years ago, employees were largely non-unionised and were rarely aware of their rights. That is not so today, yet 34 wages councils still cover about 2·7 million workers—for example, shop assistants, hotel workers and agriculture workers. For them, statutory wage rates are fixed.
    As a party, we Conservatives are pledged to ensure less government. It is surely relevant to ask why our small businesses are still burdened with these councils. One fact that is beyond doubt is that over the years awards by wages councils have on average been above the rate of inflation. That is no recent trend. In 1978, under the previous Government, there was a 5 per cent. pay guideline. But, for example, there was a 21 per cent. award to 21-year-olds in the retail stationery trade. That trend has continued. It means that wages council awards not only follow or try to keep pace with inflation but lead it. Last year, there was a 20 per cent. award to workers in licensed non-residential establishments. So it is not only the Chancellor who puts up the price of beer over the years, but it seems that only the Chancellor gets the stick.
    In 1981, in almost all industries—that is, outside the State sector—wage settlements have been realistic and well within the rate of inflation. They take into account the employer's ability to pay, but that is the last thing which wages councils seem to consider. Sometimes, they even make more than one award in a year. The retail trades had two in 1980.
    I owe an enormous debt to the National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses, whose recent research document,"Priced Out" has prompted me to raise this matter this evening. It has looked into a question to which very few people know the answer—who are these wages councils? Who governs our industry and our enterprise in this way? What are their qualifications to pontificate over our business? Its findings are disturbing.
    Originally, no doubt, wages councils were intended to reflect the particular industry concerned, with representatives of the employers and the employees and chaired by an independent member. Unfortunately, their contact with day-to-day business is minimal. The pointy-headed professors, political appointees and quango seekers sit in judgment on businesses they know nothing about. Their very lack of knowledge of business is sometimes accounted to be an advantage when they are selected, but once again it is the small business man, the small entrepreneur, who has to pay for their lack of expertise. I suggest that this is unfair.

    981
    Even if there are representatives of the industry concerned on the council, they are always the larger employer and the senior trade unionist, whose involvement in the industry is minimal, This means, for example, that a large store owner in London decides the appropriate wage rate for the small shop in the Midlands.
    In addition to all this inflation which wages councils engender, in addition to their remoteness and their atmosphere of"jobs for the boys", there is the expense. Last year they cost the taxpayer £280,000 for bureaucracy alone. That figure pales into insignificance when there is added the cost of 300 inspectors and other staff at £2½ million a year. For £3 million a year I suggest that they are an expensive, unnecessary luxury.
    They are not only expensive for the State but are costly and often ruinous to the employer, who is bound to comply with their awards, regardless of whether he can afford to do so. I said earlier that sometimes there is more than one award in a year, occasionally back-dated and usually with a minimum of notice, sometimes none.
    The Minister must agree that this creates enormous financial problems for the smaller business which already has a cash flow crisis. The result is that businesses have to close, staff are laid off and staff who would otherwise be taken on are not engaged. The increased costs are passed on in the form of increased prices to purchasers, if they can be found.
    When businesses are run in this way a hidden sufferer is the potential employee, the young unemployed, women and ethnic minorities. Wages councils have not created one new job in their entire history. Beyond doubt they have either destroyed or denied thousands of jobs. They have eroded differentials in every area where their writ runs.
    Their abolition would have no adverse effect on jobs. Let us take, for example, a dress shop run by an employer, with a manageress and one assistant. The shop just might be able to take on an extra young girl assistant, but the wages council award would have to be considered. The employer would wonder whether he could afford it, and usually the answer is"No".
    This means that the possibility of taking on another employee is reduced because of the wages councils insisting on unrealistic wage awards. Wage awards for the under-21s in particular have gone up faster than those for adult workers. In some trades—the retail food trade, for example—the adult age has been lowered from 21 to 19. The automatic result is that the employer is reluctant to take on a young person, particularly if he is untrained. The employer is happier to take on an older person who is trained, less likely to leave and of far more use to him, if the differential in the rate is so small. Once again the point must be made that it means that young people are at risk of obtaining no jobs as a result of wages council awards.
    A few weeks ago, there was a short debate on this subject in the House. It was argued by an Opposition Member that £57 was not much of a living wage for a man with a family. I agree. However, it is a living wage for a young man or a younger man who has no family and no other prospect of a job. That £57 is usually more than the potential employer can afford. It is excessive and would often cripple him. It would discourage him from taking on more young people.
    Would it not be fairer if a youngster on the dole, who receives £23 a week, perhaps received £47 and a job rather
    982
    than a potential £57 and no job? Wages councils and not hard times are often the culprits for the current youth unemployment figures.
    There is a problem in agriculture, with particular reference to agricultural college students. As part of their course, those students must have work experience on a farm, but the Agricultural Wages Council has increased rates of pay. Those rates are inflexible and prevent many farmers from being able to take on a young temporary student, as the farmer is obliged to pay full adult working rate. The wages council takes no account of the fact that the student is already supported by grants and that he needs work experience. The inevitable result is that there are no vacancies for young potential agricultural workers. Only farmers' sons can obtain such employment.
    The National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses gave another example of the inflexibility which can arise. A lady wanted to work on Saturdays instead of Fridays because it suited her personal convenience. However, the wages council inspector came in, jackbooted and bowler-hatted, and said that she must be paid time and a half for Saturday working, although it was at her request that she was working on Saturdays instead of Fridays.
    Often when a business is in a poor way, the employer can just break even by offering a cut in wages, which the employee is sometimes willing to accept. If he is not, the result is bankruptcy and unemployment. I ask my hon. and learned Friend in all sincerity whether he does not agree that, in these difficult times, particularly for the younger, single person, a lower wage is better than reduncancy or unemployment.
    Surely wages councils have no right to permanent existence in the 1980s, well knowing the damage they do to employers and potential employees. They are answerable to no one. Their decrees have the force of law without parliamentary sanction or the intervention of Parliament. There is no appeal. That is wrong. I believe that those councils are now obsolete and harmful, and that they should be abolished. In 1981 they have no continuing justification, apart from promoting bankruptcy, unemployment and inflation. I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will announce their early abolition.
    10.14 pm
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Waddington): The House should be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) for raising this matter on the Adjournment. I am well aware of the concern which is felt here about the wages council system.
    Although one can see the strength of the proposition that where, in an industry, employees are poorly organised and unable to bargain on free and fair terms, there should be some statutory machinery for the fixing of minimum wage levels, it would be quite wrong to perpetuate the system of wages councils if we became convinced either that the system no longer served any useful purpose for the workers involved, or that by raising wages above market levels it was causing a significant loss of jobs.
    Few hon. Members would argue that it is more important to ensure a minimum wage in an industry than it is to see that jobs are available. In my view, if there were clear evidence in the case of a particular wages council industry that substantial job opportunities were being destroyed because of the minimum wage levels being fixed, the case for allowing that wages council to continue

    983
    in existence would be very dubious. People have a right to price themselves into jobs as well as to commit the folly that we see so many committing of pricing themselves out of them.
    It seems that three options are open to us. First we could repeal the Wages Councils Act 1979 and thereby abolish the wages councils lock, stock and barrel.
    However, that would mean removing the only machinery there is for fixing minimum wage levels, even when—and I am here paraphrasing the wording of the Act—without a particular wages council there would be no adequate machinery for the effective regulation of wages and even when, without that wages council, a reasonable standard of pay would not be maintained.
    Wages councils fix only minimum rates of pay. Average earnings can be a markedly different matter. My hon. Friend said that awards by wages councils have been above the rate of inflation, but that is true of wages throughout the economy, which may be one of the causes of our present misfortune. The history of the past five or 10 years is there for all to see. Wages well above the rate of inflation have been paid.
    Ultimately one must acknowledge that the implications of wholesale abolition of the wages councils system would be far reaching, and one would have to be convinced that, in spite of known pockets of low pay, the type of protection now afforded by wages councils is not necessary anywhere.
    There is a second option. We could amend the Act to provide that certain categories of workers—for example, young people—should be excluded from its provisions. There is concern about young people and the effect that minimum rates may have on their employment prospects in particular.
    I have no doubt that negotiators, whether within wages councils or elsewhere, should take great care when settling rates for young people; and I know that concern has been expressed about proposals made by wages councils, particularly by the Retail Trades (Non-Food) Council in this regard. But I must remind my hon. Friend that the trend across the whole of industry—and not just in wages council sectors—has been towards a narrowing of the differentials between the wages of adults and those of young people. In retailing, the norm, where there are freely negotiated collective agreements, is an adult rate of 18.
    I am bound to say that I doubt the sense of this development. Indeed, I am not afraid to say that from this Dispatch Box. However, it is not a development that is peculiar to wages councils. Indeed, the Retail Trades (Non-Food) Council, in proposing an adult rate of 19, is behind the trend in collective agreements in the retail trade and is not setting it. Recently the trend seems to have been towards an adult rate at the age of 18.
    My noble Friend had written to both retail wages councils mentioning the need to consider the effect of their proposals on small retailers, making particular mention of the employment of young people. I trust that his words will be heeded. The exclusion of young people might have two extremely undesirable effects which have made the
    984
    problem difficult for those who have had to take the decisions. First, the exclusion of young people might lead merely to others losing their jobs to young people rather than to an increase in the total number of jobs available. One could well understand that situation arising in particular sectors.
    Secondly, it might even lead to young people losing their jobs when they reach the age of 18 or 19. At such an age, they would be brought within the wages council system from which, until then, they had been excluded by legislation. The third option open to us is to keep the present Act in being, but to ensure that it is kept constantly under review. My hon. Friend may feel that in all the circumstances there are certain advantages to that course.
    I remind my hon. Friend that these councils are independent bodies. They are principally made up of representatives of both employers and workers in the trade involved. One sometimes thinks of them—my hon. Friend has voiced the opinions of many of those involved—as merely the tools of academics. However, that cannot be so. Let us take, for example, those who are represented on the Retail Trades (Non-Food) Council. I understand that 16 organisations nominate people to represent the employers. Among those 16 organisations are the National Chamber of Trade, the National Union of Small Shopkeepers and the British Hardware Federation. Therefore, one would have thought that small traders had an opportunity to be adequately represented on the employers' side of that wages council.
    The other temptation is to imagine that wages councils are the tools of Government and that Government impose the rates. Again, that is not the case. I emphasise that the Secretary of State has no power to direct wages council, but that he has the power to keep their activities under constant review, and he can use his best endeavours to ensure that no council continues in existence when it has outlived its usefulness. This I am sure he will continue to do.
    My hon. Friend has made some useful and helpful comments which I shall certainly pass on to my right hon. Friend and to my noble Friend, who has had charge of these matters in recent years. I am sure that the wages councils will heed his words. I am not for one moment underestimating the importance of all the arguments that have been advanced by my hon. Friend. In my Department we do not look upon the matter as of little importance. We have taken great note of the representations made by the National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses, with which my noble Friend recently had a meeting. We shall certainly continue to listen with great attention to representations made to us.
    As I have already said, one should be ever on one's guard to ensure that individual wages councils do not continue to exist when they have outlived their usefulness. It is our job to keep a vigilant eye on the situation and to ensure that the system is serving a useful purpose. Once it ceases to serve a useful purpose, we shall not hestitate to abolish it.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at twenty-six minutes past Ten o'clock.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Cultural Property (Preservation and Restoration)
  Cultural Property (Preservation and Restoration)
TRADE
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NORTHERN IRELAND
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CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER
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NATIONAL FINANCE
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SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND
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PRIME MINISTER
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HOME DEPARTMENT
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SCOTLAND
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EMPLOYMENT
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SOCIAL SERVICES
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WALES
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NORTHERN IRELAND
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ENERGY
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  Fuel Direct Scheme
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  Coal Production (Incentives)
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INDUSTRY
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FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
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DEFENCE
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TRANSPORT
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ENVIRONMENT
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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  Holland (Fish Imports)
  Holland (Fish Imports)
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
  Land Registries
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  Mr. John Bloom
  Mr. John Bloom
SCOTLAND
  Council House Sales
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  Rents and Rates
  Local Authority Manpower
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  Children in Care
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  Correspondence (Queens Park Football Club)
  Correspondence (Queens Park Football Club)
  Trunk Roads
  Trunk Roads
  Roads and Transport (Expenditure)
  Roads and Transport (Expenditure)

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Derby.

Road Inspections: "Spaghetti Junction"
Lord Davies of Leek: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how much it has cost to try to keep in satisfactory condition the system of criss-crossing roads on stilts, known as Spaghetti Junction, which was opened in 1971; and whether this viaduct system has been inspected and tested to find if any of it contains high alumina cement.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport only has records which show the total expenditure on maintenance as opposed to that relating solely to structures. For the Midland links motorways, in the West Midland Metropolitan County Council area, this expenditure amounts to £l2½ million, since 1975, for the five years.
I am not aware of any use of high alumina cement in the structural members of the viaducts. The use of this type of cement when replacing some carriageway deck joints, which are not regarded as structural members, is considered acceptable.
Lord Davies of Leek: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that the West Midlands County Council appear not to have enough engineers to keep a complete survey, particularly of the section known as Spaghetti Junction? Therefore, would it not be wiser for the cost of engineering and inspection of these to be a national burden rather than that it should be put upon local authorities? Secondly, is the noble Earl aware that 18,500 steel beams have been used in the construction of these links?—23 of them have already been found to be faulty on Spaghetti Junction. Has he any idea who is going to pay the compensation for this vast sum of money to keep the roadways in complete order? I do not want to raise a scare, but, in the hagiography St. Pachomius crossed the river Nile on a crocodile. He had a better chance than some people will have 10 years from now getting across Spaghetti Junction.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I was with the noble Lord, right up to his final remarks, which I think are slightly excessive. But, having listened last night until 2 o'clock this morning to the songs of the redshank, it is even more delightful to hear the noble Lord this afternoon. The consulting engineers were appointed on behalf of the department by the West Midlands Metropolitan County Council and work started in 1979. The inspections were substantially completed
278
by the end of 1980 and all reports were expected to be submitted by mid-1981. As at 27th February—last month—47 reports out of a total of 133 have been received and, bearing this in mind, I should not like to comment in more detail on the noble Lord's supplementary question.

Ministry of Defence: Non-Industrial Staff
2.40 p.m.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many non-industrial civil servants were employed by the Ministry of Defence at the latest date for which figures are available; how many uniformed personnel were serving in the regular Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force on that date, and whether any further economies required will be achieved by reducing the number of those civil servants rather than by impairing the preparedness of the armed forces.
Viscount Long: My Lords, on 1st January 1981, the Ministry of Defence employed 125,641 non-industrial staff, compared with 343,200 personnel in the armed forces, made up of about 73,900 in the Royal Navy, 176,300 in the Army and 93,000 in the Royal Air Force. Reductions in the number of civilian staff are being sought as part of the Government's drive to reduce the size of the Civil Service. Between 1st April 1979 and 1st January 1981, the total has already been reduced by 17,200. The total number of Service personnel increased by 19,900 in the same period.
Lord Renton: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply and expressing great admiration for those civil servants who remain on duty when required, may I ask him whether it is necessary that the defence of our country should depend upon so many other civil servants, covered by his reply, who merely please themselves as to whether or not to remain on duty?
Viscount Long: My Lords, I join with my noble friend in the tribute that he has paid to the civil servants. Eighty per cent. of those who work for the Ministry of Defence in fact reported for duty, and I pay that tribute as well as my noble friend and others of your Lordships. I have no doubt that, if national security were at stake, all our staff—and I repeat, all our staff—would respond.

Coal Pits: Closures
2.42 p.m.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many coal pits have been closed since 1970, how many were closed each year between March 1974 and May 1979 and whether they will publish the annual closures since nationalisation in 1946.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, in December 1947 the National Coal Board operated 958 collieries. In March 1970 the board operated 299; in March 1974, 259; in March 1979, 223 and in March 1980, 219. Further details are given in the board's annual reports and accounts.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, if I have taken in those figures correctly, does that not mean that in the last 33 years some 600 pits have been closed and is this not a natural routine—a routine which has slowed down in more recent years, since it would appear from those figures that in the last six years only 40 have been closed? Is this not a procedure which happens in all mining operations in every country in the world and can my noble friend say why it is so exceptional that this should continue, particularly in South Wales at the present time, when the need to open up new and productive pits and to invest large sums in modernising profitable coal mines is so desperately essential for the well-being of our nation?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, on many occasions the Government have made our commitment to the coal industry and the Plan for Coal quite clear. As my noble friend indicates, closures are a part—and have always been a part—of the orderly management of the industry. They have been taking place at a rate of around 23 per year. One hopes that this will resume, because, as noble Lords know to their cost today, not closing uneconomic pits of course comes very expensive.
Lord Blyton: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, while the coal industry has had a terrific beating over the years, we have never objected to the closure of pits where the reserves have gone and are nonexistent? But I want to emphasise this: a pit which is facing geological difficulties and is an uneconomic pit today can be a viable pit in, say, five or six months' time. That is why we as miners are opposing closure of economic pits, because uneconomic pits today can be made economic in a few months' time.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I am, of course, very aware of the noble Lord's experience in this field. I am glad to say that normal and orderly relations and negotiations between the Coal Board and the mine workers have now resumed, and that underlines our own commitment to the Plan for Coal.
Lord Elwyn-Jones: My Lords, can the noble Earl say how many new coal pits have been opened since 1970? Perhaps he has not that statistic immediately available.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I do not have it immediately available, but, of course, there have been the startling and extensive discoveries in the Midlands, at Belvoir.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, it is of course true that in any mining industry pits are closed periodically, but for the Government to suddenly start twisting the arm of the Coal Board and then to present a dozen closures together was a piece of tactless industrial idiocy which caused a great deal of trouble.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I do not think there was even an attempt at the interrogative form during the noble Lord's statement. I do not think the Government were twisting anybody's arm, least of all the coal industry's. It is arguable that the Government were subject to a little arm-twisting themselves.
Viscount St. Davids: My Lords, the noble Lord's original Question asked how many coal pits have been closed, whereas the noble Earl who answered simply gave the figure of how many were being operated at each particular time. There is a gap, surely, between those two figures, which is the number opened in those particular years. Ought not this to be included if the Answer is to fit the Question?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I accept that correction, though I did say in a supplementary answer that they were being closed at an average of 23 a year. It seems to me somewhat beyond the bounds of an oral answer that one should present the House with so many figures, and I truncated my original Answer in order to try to make it more easily understood.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether in the majority of this very large number of routine closures alternative employment in nearby mines has been offered to the miners? And can he say whether the very rigid attitude in South Wales, which suggests that no further closures will ever be allowed, is influenced by the fact that the Executive of the National Union of Miners there is entirely dominated by people with communist affiliations?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I do not think that is the issue. Obviously there are problems in any industry, including the coal industry, where you get a concentration of employment in one industry in one given area. In fact in regard to the closures that have taken place continuously since the war I can confirm that in the majority of cases miners have received employment in alternative mines. But that has been more of a difficulty for the South Wales community, particularly in an area of high unemployment.

BBC External Service
2.48 p.m.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans there are for any increase of broadcasting time by the BBC External Service, and in what languages.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, from the end of March the BBC External Service's broadcasts in Russian will be increased by 30 minutes a day to a total of 45 hours a week, and their broadcasts in Turkish by 30 minutes a day to 10½ hours a week. A new daily 15-minute service in Pushtu will be introduced during the summer.
Lord Morris: My Lords, I thank my noble friend most warmly for that Answer. Is he aware that there are many who will be most grateful and admiring of Her Majesty's Government's initiative in this area? Furthermore, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware of the effect that the cut of £6·2 million over the current year and next year in the capital costs of the BBC External Service has on the quality and on the audibility of broadcasting throughout the ambit of their broadcasts?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, we attach the utmost importance to the audibility of the BBC external broadcasts and feel that although, of course, they have been subject to cuts, which are common across the board at the moment, they have done extremely well. To improve their audibility satellite feeds to the relay stations in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East are being introduced, and four new transmitters are planned to be in service by mid-1982. A powerful new medium-wave transmitter will start broadcasting from Orford Ness in Suffolk in early 1982, and the BBC have eight new transmitters ordered for a planned new broadcasting station in the United Kingdom.
Lord Goronwy-Roberts: My Lords, while welcoming what the Minister has said about improving these services in the three countries he named—particularly if I may say so, the increased broadcasting to Turkey at the present time—may I ask him whether it is not also the fact that during the same period some very heavy cuts have been made in other parts of the world? Would he not agree that any further investment in this excellent service can only strengthen our diplomacy, improve our commerce and generally strengthen the influence of Britain in the world as a whole?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I agree entirely with the sentiments which the noble Lord has expressed. At the moment I am lead to understand that no cuts have been made, but my honourable friend Mr. Ridley is in consultation at present.
The Earl of Kimberley: My Lords, my noble friend said that the broadcasts in Russian will be increased by 30 minutes. Can he say whether, prior to that, in the past few months they had been cut by 30 minutes, or will the 30 minutes be a complete increase?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, my understanding is that the 30 minutes is a complete increase. Last summer the Russians began jamming the BBC Russian broadcasts and they were then increased by a further four hours a week to help counter that.
Viscount Eccles: My Lords, while welcoming the increases in the broadcasts that my noble friend has announced, may I ask whether he can give an assurance that the BBC's broadcasts in English will not be reduced? I have just come from South America and the need for English news which can be depended upon is much greater now than it was even a year or two ago.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the Government have never had any plans to reduce the World Service in English.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating
Lord Denham: My Lords, at a convenient moment after 3.30 this afternoon my noble friend Lady Young will, with the leave of the House, repeat a Statement that is to be made in another place on the Social Security Benefits Up-rating.

Cumbria Bill [H.L.]
2.52 p.m.
Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This Bill is one of a familiar series in the review of local government legislation required under Section 262 of the Local Government Act 1972. A number of these Bills have already been before your Lordships' House. This Bill substantially re-enacts existing powers and where appropriate includes common clauses. As can be expected, some clauses deal with matters of special interest to the county and it is inevitable that some petitions, in this case four, have been laid, but I submit that they will properly be dealt with in the Committee stage if not settled before, and it is the promoters' hope that some, if not all, will be settled before.
The clause with which I am concerned in particular is described as the "Protection of sites of archaeological interest"—that is, Clause 40. I believe that one noble Lord wishes to speak about this clause and hence my presuming to speak to your Lordships this afternoon. I should like to clear up in advance what may be a misunderstanding arising from confusing this clause with the provision in a recent Kent Bill—Clause 100 in that Bill as originally drafted—entitled "Control of metal detectors". That clause was much wider in its scope than the clause in the Cumbria Bill and far more exacting. What we are concerned with is the protection of sites of archaeological interest which are not otherwise protected, and we are not aiming particularly at the damage done by those who operate metal detectors, but at damage, whatever the cause may be.
The by-law making power under Clause 40 of the Cumbria Bill is sought by the local planning authority and would not extend to all and every open space in the county, as the Kent clause did, but to a few sites identified as of archaeological importance which, in fact, would also be set out in a resolution of the county council. Such sites are not covered or protected by the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979. As I have said, this is not aimed at the users of metal detectors—which is a hobby and a recreation, I

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believe, now growing in the country—it is not aimed at metal detectors as such, but at the damage which they or others may do in disturbing archaeological sites by any means.
Cumbria is in one way in a special position. Its population is not dense; its development over the years has not been as great as in some other counties; it is thinly populated and hence there are more undisturbed sites—Roman and pre-Roman—than in many other parts of England. I submit that the damage once done to sites of this sort cannot be easily repaired. I would submit that Cumbria is neither asking for powers which are found in existing legislation nor asking for powers in a local Bill which are more appropriately included in public general legislation. This is a wholly reasonable clause in a wholly reasonable Bill. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be read 2a—(Lord Inglewood.)
Lord Peart: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, for introducing this Bill. I shall not elaborate on what he has said. He has said everything and no doubt other noble Lords may join in accepting the Bill. It is important for Cumberland and I hope that the House will allow the Bill to go through.
Lord Nugent of Guildford: My Lords, I rise to call attention to Clause 40 of the Bill to which my noble friend has referred, which would give local authorities in Cumbria new powers to make by-laws for restricting or prohibiting digging and other works in areas identified by them as being of archaeological interest. Cumbria is no different from other parts of the country in that respect. I understand that, in fact, the county council only intends to specify some 24 sites out of a potential of some 5,500 in the county listed as of archaeological interest. Clause 41 of the Bill has a wider impact, but is designed for the same purpose.
My reasons for intervening on the Second Reading of this Private Bill are twofold. First, to remind your Lordships that in the last Session the Select Committee, of which I was chairman, disallowed a clause with a similar purpose in the County of Kent Bill. Our Select Committee reached that decision in the light of the Home Office evidence that the Home Secretary would confirm by-laws by a local authority under Sections 235 and 236 of the Local Government Act 1972 imposing reasonable restrictions on the use of metal detectors. Despite my noble friend's eloquent plea on the matter I would say that there is a similarity in principle.
My second reason is that it is generally undesirable to proceed by a series of Private Bill powers to deal with a national problem, in this case particularly the use of metal detectors. In this case, in addition to the Home Secretary's powers, to which I have just referred, there are also the new powers under Section 42 of the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 which expressly protect scheduled monuments and other areas of archaeological importance by making it an offence to use a metal detector in any such place, as well as other older national legislation touching on the matter. In those circumstances, I suggest that the
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Select Committee to whom this Bill will be referred—if that is the wish of this noble House—should seriously consider whether Cumbria needs the powers asked for in the Bill over and above the powers already existing in national legislation.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, we are very grateful to my noble friend Lord Inglewood for introducing this Bill this afternoon. We have of course a great deal of business in front of us today, but I think that it might assist the House if I were to intervene very briefly at this stage to give the Government's view on the provisions in the Bill concerning the control of metal detectors.
The Government's view on this matter remains substantially the same as when a clause in the County of Kent Bill providing for a licensing system for metal detectors was considered by a Select Committee of your Lordships' House, so ably chaired by my noble friend Lord Nugent of Guildford, and subsequently disallowed. We considered then, and we consider now, that powers are already available under the general law for local authorities to make suitable by-laws to control the use of metal detectors in respect of certain areas of land. The Government are concerned that the system of by-laws proposed in Clause 40 of the Cumbria Bill should not overlap these existing powers.
Until last year my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department was not prepared to confirm by-laws which sought to prohibit the use of metal detectors made under the enactments protecting public open spaces. He took the view that the mere use of a metal detector did not constitute a nuisance or damage the land, and, therefore, fell outside the scope of the by-law-making powers in question. It was only the digging that created the nuisance. However, local authorities and archaeological organisations argued very strongly that a by-law prohibiting digging is much harder to enforce than one prohibiting the operation of a metal detector because digging can be carried out quickly and metal detector users invariably dig up what they have located. Therefore, there was a case for prohibiting the actual use of metal detectors.
It was also considered that by-laws prohibiting their use on certain land would be infra vires. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is, therefore, now prepared to consider by-laws prohibiting or regulating the use of metal detectors where the need to protect particular and usually quite small areas of land can be established; for instance, where an archaeological site or landscape garden needs this protection. I understand that four local authorities have submitted draft by-laws in accordance with the new policy and that these are now under consideration.
As to the Bill in general, there are no other points that I would wish to raise at this stage. I recommend that your Lordships give the Bill its Second Reading today to enable it to be considered in detail in Committee, as is customary.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

Companies (No. 2) Bill [H.L.]
3.2 p.m.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, in moving the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper I would wish to draw your Lordships' attention to a small error. The fifth line of the order of clauses should read:
"Clauses 3 to 16 and 18 to 62"
instead of:
"Clauses 3 to 62".
With that in mind, I beg to move the Motion in this corrected form.
Moved, That it be an Instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to whom the Companies (No. 2) Bill [H.L.] has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order, viz.:—

Clauses 1 and 2

Schedule 1

Clause 17

Schedule 2

Clauses 3 to 16 and 18 to 62

Schedules 3 and 4

—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord has amended the Instruction on the Order Paper, as I was concerned that we might have to consider Clause 17 twice.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Industry: Efficiency and Competitiveness
3.3 p.m.
The Earl of Shannon The Earl of Shannon rose to call attention to the means whereby British industry may become more competitive in world markets; and to move for Papers.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, in rising to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper I, like many others, have a deep feeling of apprehension at our present industrial situation. For nearly four decades it would appear that nationally we have been more concerned with ever more worthy and fair methods of spending our national wealth, rather than giving attention to the business of creating it. Admirable and laudable though this may be, it eventually means that we will run out of resources. That is just where we are arriving, or have arrived now.
I am particularly encouraged that so many of your Lordships have agreed to speak in this debate this afternoon. I am also most impressed by the quality and wide experience of those who are intending to participate. In particular, I am most pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has agreed to speak to his own Motion regarding standards during this debate. This is particularly appropriate as his Motion necessarily must form an integral and vital part of any debate or discussion on industrial competitiveness. In addition, three noble Lords have chosen this afternoon to address your Lordships' House for the first time. Like the others participating this afternoon, they will
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be speaking from a deep knowledge of various different sectors of industry. We wait with the greatest interest to hear what they have to say.
I hope that in this debate we will not dwell too long on historical aspects of the present situation, or attempt to apportion or lay blame along party lines. With great respect, there has been plenty of opportunity in the recent past during economic debates for all that to have been done already. I now hope that we may consider constructive suggestions for the betterment of all of us, and our nation in particular. For this same reason I shall not weary the House with lengthy statistics, all of which merely lead to a firm belief in the present situation as we already know it. Most of my contribution will refer to manufactured products, because this has been my industrial background. But in doing so I should like to make it quite clear that I am offering no disrespect to the valuable, invisible services which we offer to the world, or to our large and very important agricultural industry.
As is obviously quite clear, I have had absolutely no control over the Chancellor of the Exchequer in attempting to induce him to delay his Budget until he has had the benefit of all the valuable advice which I am sure your Lordships will give him this afternoon. No doubt he has variously done, failed to do, or done the exact opposite of what we think he should do and are about to advise him to do. Do we welcome the Budget? Yes, of course we do. But those little benefits for industry were surely too small, and in many cases were far too late to help many companies which no longer exist. But one must say what a pity it is that there was no cancelling of the now totally indefensible national insurance surcharge payroll tax or of the increase in the heavy oil tax. One really wonders whether such attitudes do not reinforce our belief that Her Majesty's present Government are not joining their long string of predecessors who, over the past decades, in fact gave one cause to wonder whether they were on our side or that of our competitors.
Of necessity, of course, we all speak from our own personal knowledge, and this is obviously restrictive in such a wide subject. For this reason I shall make only some very general comments about the subject as a whole by way of introduction. Then I shall concentrate on what is my main interest; namely, technology and industrial research, and the research associations, to which I shall make a number of references purely because I happen to know what they are doing. But this in no way means that they are exclusive in the particular work that they are doing; it just happens to be that I am more acquainted with them. Other aspects of this wide subject will no doubt be covered in detail by the other speakers from their own specialist knowledge.
At this time perhaps it is appropriate to remind ourselves of what in fact is competitiveness. I would suggest to your Lordships, first, that it is producing the right product; secondly, that it shall be efficiently produced; thirdly, that it shall be offered at the right price; fourthly, that it shall be effectively marketed; fifthly, that it shall be delivered at the right time; and, sixthly, that it shall be properly supported with after-sales service to ensure that a follow-up order is forthcoming. Then, this is an unusual one, seventhly, which I have added myself; that somewhere, somehow, somebody shall have an intent to be competitive.
Let us take these in greater detail. The product. The right product. It must incorporate the latest technology of its type. We now have instant communication around the world. It is no good offering to a market a technologically inferior product, because people are now well aware of what is available around the world and you will not get away with it any longer. It is no good to say that the old model is still selling. It probably is, but it is losing you reputation and losing you your market. You must have a continuous quest and an awareness of what is available and what is technologically up to date at the moment. Furthermore, it must have an appropriate and attractive design.
In this respect I would refer your Lordships, and any other industrialists, to the Corfield Report, which was issued by NEDO perhaps some two years ago. From that you will see that products must have eye appeal, and not only that but they must be seen to be well thought out. It does your image no end of good to be seen to have given the matter careful thought and to have designed it attractively and efficiently. Furthermore, and very important, it must meet the local standards and regulations of the market where you intend to sell it. That little subject I shall leave to the far abler tongue of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton.
However, I should like to remind your Lordships that technology still moves ahead. The Furniture Industry Research Association has been successful in satisfactorily developing something which has so far eluded so many people dealing with standards for timber. It has produced a surface roughness gauge which will enable standards of surface on things like chipboard to be accurately measured for the very first time.
Another point that we want to impress upon our companies in this country is the stimulation of technological awareness. So many companies in this country, when they find falling profit figures, tend to make a dive for the established management consultants who then start talking about cash flow, use of assets, and so on and so forth, and the very last thing they think of is, "Are we making the right product in the right way?" A technological audit and a willingness to submit oneself to a technological audit is something we must impress on our companies if they are going to continue to be competitive and highly satisfactory in world marketing.
At this moment might I refer your Lordships to one or two examples of missed opportunities, and fortunately one or two opportunities which have been recently taken. The first one I should like to refer to was a joint operation in a project between a United States company and the Rubber and Plastics Research Association in this country, but it might have been any other laboratory. This project was successful in defining a method for the high level re-usage of rubber from waste motor-car tyres.
Unlike many of its previous projects and processes it was going to do so without a loss of property in the resulting product, although a high level of re-usage was involved. The patent rights which were obtained on this process were jointly shared between the American company, which was the sponsor, and the British laboratory. The American continent was reserved
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for the American sponsor, and the rest of the world to the British laboratory. It was made known, bruited abroad among British industry, that this new process existed, but there were no British takers. However, Sweden and Austria have jumped in and they are going to use it. What a pity!
Another one was the increased use of waste paper by eliminating what are known as the sticky contaminants in waste paper, which block up paper mills and cause no end of trouble in trying to make new paper from old waste paper. This was done by a British research association and the work was sponsored by the Department of Industry. It has led to a patented process which is highly successful, and we hope that British industry will not let this one pass by.
In the 1950s a British laboratory perfected a process of dust pressing of tableware in the ceramic industry. It was not used for various economic reasons at the time but now, oh dear, a German company is producing the machinery to make this type of tableware. However, on the brighter side in that particular industry the use of photo-polymer plates for decorating tableware efficiently and more cheaply than the present process has been developed in this country and is now fortunately starting to be used by British industry.
Another interesting one as a chemical system for producing resins from rock and clay. This was developed by the Paint Research Association, I think from memory somewhere in the region of about eight years ago. It was considered to be technologically brilliant at the time but uneconomic. That was before the oil crisis. In those days petro-chemical feedstock was cheap and easily available. Now, with the oil price rises, how much more valuable is this process, but still unfortunately it has not been taken up by British industry. However, great interest is now being expressed by that one nation that has no oil of its own and is entirely dependent on imported feedstocks. Needless to say, Japan.
There is a new process in steel castings. This, I think, will entirely revolutionise the present moulding procedure used in foundries. I do not know how many among your Lordships have actually poured molten metal with your own hands, but I have, both here and abroad. I think that I am in a small way qualified to say that I think this is one of the most revolutionary processes that I have ever seen in the foundry industry. It is a variation of the old lost wax, or cire perdu, process, brought really up to date. I would suggest that when this is finally unveiled as a patented process noble Lords who happen to have foundries in their groups will jump at this quickly, because if they do not their foundries are going to be out of business. Those are just a few examples of some cases where British technology has been adopted and others where, unfortunately, we have missed.
May I now go on to the next criterion, and that is that the product must be efficiently produced. Here again we must adopt the latest technology in manufacture. The proper use of technology will enhance the three major, although finite, factors in production; namely, land, if appropriate, labour, and capital. We must use those. Labour relations are of critical importance in production, but noble Lords with far greater experience than I will no doubt address the House on that, so I shall not embroider on that subject save to

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remind noble Lords of an interesting feature which is not sufficiently well known. That is that those countries which have the greatest population of industrial robots and automated machinery happen to be those countries which have the lowest levels of unemployment. I do not know why that should be the case, but it is.
We must give very intelligent thought to the training and retraining not only of our workforce but also of the decision-makers, and here a very efficient system is coming into operation where "hands-on" training is being made available with the latest types of equipment and machinery for managers, managing directors and chairmen so that they themselves can operate the new machinery to convince them that it is what they should buy, not just to train their labour force. We have a vast stock of existing technology in this country and it is through technology, which is a broad field including research and development, management and organisation, that our industry can reach for the greater efficiency, production and profit which we so desire.
Then we come to the question of the right price. Goods must be designed for the market for which they are intended. Occasionally we will have the technology push—in other words, the placing on the market of a totally unknown product will take place satisfactorily. But more often we must be concerned with the market pull: what does the market want? not what do we want to sell it? The product and its quality must be geared to the customer's requirements and his ability to pay. It is no good offering a highly sophisticated piece of equipment at great expense to somebody who cannot understand it and does not really want it anyway. It is like offering him a sports car when he has neither the roads for it nor the ability to maintain it, and really what he wants is a pushbike. If the product meets those requirements and is produced efficiently, the price should turn out to be correct. The well-known old story about mousetraps is, with respect, a lot of honey. However good a mousetrap you produce, the world will not beat a path to your door unless it knows you have that mousetrap. You have to find the customer and tell him, and if you have the right product at the right price, it should not be too difficult to convince him he should buy it.
Whether we opposed or approved our entry into the European Community, we are members of it, so please let us take it seriously. It is about the largest market grouping in the world and, as part of it, we should take it seriously and try to sell in it. I pay tribute to our ambassador to the European Community, Sir Michael Butler, who has produced from his office a valuable paper telling British firms what to do about the European Community and how to do it. If I had my way, I would make it required reading for everybody above the rank of manager in industry. I understand that this paper is due for publication soon. I urge the Government not to sit on it in the various departments, giving it the nod, but to get it out to industry because it is a most valuable paper.
Our products must of course be delivered at the right time. No matter how good a product or how right its price, it is pointless if a customer cannot have it when he wants it. Here the technology of production and labour relations are obviously critical, and in this connection I make my only other comment on labour
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relations: we must realise that it is very difficult to expect a complete change in attitude from a labour force, whether organised or otherwise, a whole generation of which has been paid what it wants, not what it is worth. Whether that was right or wrong I do not attempt to argue. It is what has happened and we cannot change it overnight.
I mentioned to your Lordships last year when speaking in a debate on productivity initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Schon, how the ratio of what we paid ourselves compared with what we produced. In the United States it was 3·6 to 1, 3·6 times more than they produced; in Japan it was 1 to 1 exactly; France, 2·3 to 1; Germany, 1·6 to 1; Italy, 5·7 to 1; and in the dear old United Kingdom, 13 to 1. We paid ourselves 13 times as much for what we did. I admit that in the last 12 months that has come down to 8·5 to 1; that figure I got from the television screen last night when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was talking about his Budget.
When a sale has been made, it must be properly supported. Almost every product during its lifetime requires spares, maintenance or repair. We must make sure that our after-sales service is what is necessary to ensure a future sale, even if the after-sales service is only advice on how to use the thing and does not necessarily supply spares and maintenance.
Then there is a criterion in regard to the intent: there must be an intent to be competitive, and none of the foregoing criteria will be met if we do not have a will and wish to succeed. Despite what may be political convictions or feelings of patriotism, there is absolutely no doubt that the one really good incentive to everybody is a reward. That must be seen to be there and be seen to be tangible and attainable, but I am sorry to say that recently taxation, the national insurance surcharge, interest rates and uncontrolled prices have all tended to destroy the incentive by reward.
It must be very difficult for Governments to exhort others to do various important and valuable things when the Government themselves appear to be slightly uninterested and almost even taking disruptive action in the areas which they control. We must have energy prices in line with those of our industrial competitors, as is clearly brought out by what has happened to our fibres industry, where the United States has been able to send to this country fibre made from subsidised petrochemical feedstock to sell at prices which have absolutely runined our indstry.
I take other examples from a light engineering business with which I am acquainted. Their gas prices have risen 75 per cent. in the last two years and the increase will be nearly 93 per cent. over three years. Their electricity has risen 87 per cent. in the last two years, yet during the same period their selling prices have gone up by 10 per cent. in 1979 and 8 per cent. in 1980, and they will have to reduce them by 2 per cent. to hold their market in 1981. One may ask, what have they done to help themselves? They have in fact reduced the energy content of their product from 8 per cent. to 4 per cent.—they have halved it. Yet they cannot but feel that, with those price increases, they are being sabotaged by their home Government. Another company with which I am acquainted have seen their prices remain static here but rise from 20 to

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25 per cent. abroad, depending on the exchange rate, which is something totally beyond their own control.
We were very pleased to see that interest rates have come down by 2 per cent. in the Budget, but what has that kind of reduction meant to companies in the past? In 1978 a small company with 130 employees required to service its working capital interest payments of £4,384. In 1979 it required £10,000, and in 1980 it required £25,130. All of that had to be found from within its gross profit margin, or not at all. I appreciate that heavy users of gas and electricity are due for negotiated reductions, and I appreciate, too, that the lowering of interest rates will help; but is that really enough?
I have gone through those seven criteria, and your Lordships will remember that in regard to at least two of them I mentioned that the latest technology is absolutely paramount. A few weeks ago many of us were privileged to hear the Prime Minister speaking at the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee lunch. During that speech she rightly laid great stress on the importance of technology for our industrial future, and she gave a graphic account of a recent party which she had held in Downing Street for inventors. That was magnificent, so far as it went. But I suspect that she has never designed, produced or marketed anything herself; otherwise, she would realise that, while it is wonderful to be an inventor, to leap up from your laboratory bench shouting, "Eureka!", or whatever one shouts, is just the beginning; it is not the end. The real operation is then implementing your discovery. If I may take an agricultural analogy, it would be like producing packets of seeds, but never growing the main crop. Of course, if one is to grow a satisfactory main crop, one must use the best seeds, but there is little future in producing the seeds alone. We have an enviable record of inventive capability, but a miserable record of adopting our own innovations.
The Secretary of State for Industry, in a recent address to NEDO, outlined United Kingdom successes—a very impressive list of successes of implementation. What a pity there was not another annexe to the document, showing all the inventions that we had made but never used! I have heard of a major international industrial group, which, as a matter of policy, have decided that the United Kingdom is no longer a suitable manufacturing base for their operations, but consider that its tradition, education and ingenuity make the United Kingdom a very suitable place to carry out R and D for the rest of their manufacturing operations elsewhere. There we are again straight back in the packets of seed business!
What incentive do we give to our research and development? We have a well organised Requirements Board system, under the Department of Industry. It suffers a drawback in that the only support it is able to give is limited to payments of 50 per cent. of the cost of projects, the other 50 per cent. having to be found by industry. For short-term research and research directly related to company products it is easy to find the other 50 per cent. But when it comes to what might be called generic research, which is of value to the industry as a whole but not necessarily in any way directed to specific products identifiable with particular companies, it is very difficult to secure
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the matching 50 per cent. I suggest that Her Majesty's Government may wish to consider whether that kind of generic research should not be funded as to 100 per cent.
On the whole, longer-term research is the proper function of universities, as part of their real mission in life, which is education, not, as some are now tending to do, acting as troubleshooters for industry. I think that that is brought about by a feeling that they should try to make themselves more apparently industrially relevant and, of course, in order to ease the cash situation. In doing that, they are usually merely duplicating an already existing facility, and doing so at a hidden and totally uneconomic cost.
I wish once more to refer to the address to NEDO of the Secretary of State for Industry. A very interesting statistic which was mentioned concerns what is spent on R and D funding in relation to industrial productivity. Germany spends 10 per cent., France spends 10 per cent., other EEC countries spend 8 per cent., and the United Kingdom spends 4 per cent., of which 3 per cent. goes on civil transport, so we really spend only 1 per cent.
I should like to compare that situation with the funding of industrial research in other countries. India makes no grants to industry for research, but 100 per cent. of the cost of all in-house company research and development is recoverable out of taxes—not gross profits. Pre-approved R and D projects qualify for 130 per cent. recovery from taxes. In France, the centres techniques are financed most successfully on a parafiscal system to the tune of around 80 per cent. in most cases, and such money is obtained for the benefit of R and D for French industry by a levy on imports. I wonder whether in fact this is not a breach of the Treaty of Rome, though, even if it is, I very much doubt whether it would worry the French much. May we contrast that system of getting foreign manufacturers to support home industry with the British system of applying national insurance surcharge, from which foreign imports are relieved, as a tax on British products?
In this country we have for some time had a system of statutory levy. It was imposed on various industries in the past at their own request, to pay for general research for the benefit of the whole industry. It leads to results which may not be patentable, and it presents a fair way of ensuring an equitable division of the costs among all beneficiaries, while not allowing "cowboy" or "pirate" firms to benefit from the results without making a reasonable contribution towards the cost. I understand that it is Conservative Party policy if possible not to allow that kind of levy. Recently, two surveys have been conducted by means of a questionnaire, in the furniture and cutlery industries, to discover whether they wish to continue with such a levy. Such levies are of great value to the industry as a whole, and it is unfortunate that it has been decided that the furniture industry shall not be allowed to continue with such a levy, although the industry voted for a continuation of the levy by a majority far greater than that by which the Conservative Government won the last election.
In conclusion, may I refer to one of our greatest competitors, the Japanese? Like many others, I am greatly impressed by their sense of purpose. Here we

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have the National Economic Development Office and ACARD. They have produced most valuable reports, but only in an advisory capacity. Our Prime Minister has been heard to refer to "United Kingdom Limited", and may I respectfully remind her and her predecessors that she is, and they were, the chairman of the board of directors of UK Limited. So far as I can remember, we have had little or no major decisions on industrial strategy from that board.
One example of Japanese success was the top level strategy decision, taken no doubt after much deliberation, that motor-cycles were for them. The Japanese did not invent motor-cycles, but decided that this was their market. So they went for it and they took that market. Of course, any Japanese manufacturer was free to make hula hoops if he so desired; but if he did so he was on his own and he did not get the extra assistance available to those who supported the major strategy.
Now what can we do along these lines? At present, we give assistance mainly on a geographical basis in an attempt to make a locally depressing situation slightly more palatable temporarily. But why do I have hopes that we might follow the Japanese principle? I will tell your Lordships. Because we did once emulate the Japanese; we once decided that North Sea oil was for us and we went all out to get it, and look what a great success it is. Great credit must be given to those companies who responded to this challenge, for the way they have worked, and for the new technology which they have created. Of course, it may be said that this was so obvious a decision, but how do we know that there are not others? After due deliberation and considering the wealth of expert advice available to them, could not our board of directors start making a few decisions along these lines, instead of being so preoccupied in sharing out the misery in an unimpeachably fair manner?
It will not always be possible to be right. The Japanese have made some mistakes and they have gone up unprofitable alleys, but this should not be an excuse for ducking decisions. There is only one thing worse than making a wrong decision and that is to make no decision at all and to give no leadership. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.43 p.m.
Lord Shackleton Lord Shackleton had given notice of his intention to call attention to the importance of standards in contributing to the efficiency and competitiveness of British industry and the quality of its products, the need for progress in implementing the Warner Report and the desirability of considering these issues within an international context, with particular reference to the European Communities; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend; I call him "my noble friend", but that does not mean I am a Cross-Bencher, nor even a social democrat, but he and I have been working together on a number of matters and he has played a very big part in initiating the Science Centre Project in addition to his activities in the research associations. In fact, he has shown all that experience and quality that one would look for from a retired professional soldier. I think we have all been very impressed.
Under the ingenious procedure we have in this House, the noble Earl has allowed me to insert into this debate a Motion that I have on the Order Paper and which, for the sake of the record, because it is not formally before your Lordships, I would like to read to your Lordships:
"To call attention to the importance of standards in contributing to the efficiency and competitiveness of British industry and the quality of its products, the need for progress in implementing the Warner Report and the desirability of considering these issues within an international context, with particular reference to the European Communities; and to move for Papers".
In a way, I regret having to confine myself to this subject since the speech made by my noble friend has been so interesting that it was a worthy sequel to the first-class debate we had in your Lordships' House a few days ago. There are many issues to which I would like to have referred. I would not have agreed that the Prime Minister was not very good at marketing. She seems to have marketed the Conservative Party up until now with some success. It is not a question of our running out of resources; it is our failure to use those resources that we are most concerned with.
I am very glad that my noble friend referred to the energy problem. He said that he did not dislike the Budget. Frankly, I do. I dislike it very much and I do so because I am also involved in industry; I happen to be chairman, among other things, of a large aluminium smelting undertaking where the cost of power—which the excellent NEDO Report may lead to being improved—and the rate of exchange are very serious handicaps.
I want to talk about a subject with which not all your Lordships may be familiar, and I must apologise if I fail to make my comments very interesting. Furthermore, because I have myself found difficulty in understanding all the technicalities involved, I will stick rather more closely to a brief than I usually do. I must say that when I came out of Government I found that I made much better speeches in Opposition than I did from the Government's Front Bench when I had to stick to the Minister's brief.
I am delighted that the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, is going to reply to this debate and I am quite hopeful that we shall hear some valuable comments on many of the matters to which I will now refer. Indeed, standards are an unknown quantity to many people yet they affect our lives in many ways. They do have an important contribution to make to our efficiency and competitiveness. And by standards, I do not mean physical standards of weights and measures, but technical agreements.
I apologise for giving the following rather turgid description: a standard is a technical specification or other document available to the public, drawn up with the co-operation and consensus or general approval of all interests affected, based on the consolidated results of science, technology and experience and it is aimed at the promotion of the optimum community benefits. It has to be proved by a body recognised at national, regional or international level. In this country the body involved is the British Standards Institution, of which I am a past president, in common with the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, who has also been president of that admirable institution. This definition is rather

295
complicated, but standards are not easy to describe. There are different types of standards to meet different needs; glossaries of terms to ensure that those involved in some particular fold speak the same language, so that they know what they are talking about. There are also methods of test, which are self-explanatory; specifications giving a set of requirements which a product should meet, and codes providing advice on accepted good practice.
Perhaps standards have rather a dull ring because so little is known about them, even though it has been estimated that something like half our GNP is affected by them. Life would be more difficult, more dangerous and more expensive without standards. They define and establish fitness for purpose so that a supplier of, say, manhole covers can be confident that if his product meets the standard it will meet his customers' needs, and his customers in turn will have a similar assurance. In other words, standards describe good practice; guiding, for example, those who are engaged in the safe use of cranes or ensuring access to buildings for the disabled. Standards reduce unnecessary variety. They make production more economical and efficient and they ensure compatibility. The absence of standards has severely handicapped some industrial developments in the past. This was true of computer systems, and unless we achieve good standards the whole of information technology may well be seriously affected. The difficulty in that area is fundamental to the success of our own industry. To move to another simple example, there was once a difficulty in finding candles to fit candlesticks. That was an early stimulus for standardisation.
Standards make available research and they reflect, or should reflect, market requirements, international as well as national. They are important for promoting trade, international and national; and a country which has national standards has to spell them out to meet its own market needs. But it is grossly uncompetitive to work to a number of different standards. Therefore, there is now an impetus, and a good one, towards international standardisation which has been particularly strong in the post-war period. Here again the representation of British interests—and I stress "British interests"—in the alignment of differing national standards is of major importance to United Kingdom trade.
The process of reference to standards offers Governments a simple economic instrument, for example, in the fields of health, safety and consumer protection. Where different Governments have adopted separate approaches, the result has been the creation of additional barriers of trade between countries as opposed to tariff barriers. A move towards dismantling these has been the work being done in the European Community in pursuing a programme of directives (some of which I hope will be more acceptable than some of the directives that we have had recently from Brussels). These are related to harmonised standards wherever possible, and here again the British Standards Institution has a role to play, particularly in providing the leverage which is so essential. This leverage has been made clear and its importance brought under the spotlight by Sir Fred Warner's report, Standards and Specifications in the Engineering Industry. Sir Fred will be well known to many noble Lords in connection with the great con
296
sultant firm of Cremer and Warner. He is my successor as president of the British Standards Institution.
Here I should like to pay tribute to the NEDC and the work of some of the sector working parties in recognising the value of standards in reducing unit costs, in improving quality and delivery and creating better export performance. What is needed is a reduction in the endless proliferation of specifications and certification schemes for similar products.
The Warner Report sought to establish the scope for achieving this and the reason why I put down this Motion was my anxiety at the lack of progress on this fundamental report which is now four years old; and although some circumstances have changed many of the messages are relevant today. The potential of standards is not fully exploited. It is a pity that more progress has not been made in public purchasing in regard to British Standards, which accounts for over half our national expenditure. I hope that the noble Earl when he comes to reply, in view of the rather encouraging remarks which the Secretary of State for Industry made recently, will be able to report some progress in this area. This was recommended in a White Paper in 1967 but, 14 years later, too much of the public sector continues to insist on specials instead of standard products. So I think that any initiative from the Department of Industry will be vital to achieve progress in this area and I look forward to hearing something encouraging.
A recent example of a good decision has been that to convert British telecommunication standards to British Standards and, incidentally, we welcome the abandonment of public sector standards. I am sorry to be so technical but these are technical questions, of great importance to our progress, and the Government might examine the scope for similar initiatives in other public sector bodies.
There have been some positive achievements. Recognising that legislative requirements could produce a further diversity of specifications, the Warner Report said that the Health and Safety at Work Act should refer to British Standards and codes of practice and the Consumer Protection Act should be implemented by reference to standards. I am glad to say that progress here has been made. The inspectors support the voluntary use of appropriate British Standards and there is reference to British Standards in the regulations, and a great deal more could be done. A list of standards could be drawn up which might be produced jointly. The Consumer Protection Act allows for reference to standards but has the rather cumbersome Affirmative Resolution legislative procedure. This means there is a certain delay and we do not get the appropriate reference to independent certification except by a rather tedious process.
The third major recommendation called for the Government to set an early target for the completion of metric conversion. This is a very sore subject. Governments are frightened and this Government have been even more frightened than their predecessor. Noble Lords—including the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, who is to take part in this debate—will remember the somewhat heated debate that we had on the subject of decimalisation. However much we may have preferred pounds, shillings and pence, the fact is that it is very expensive for us to have stopped. Now we

297
have, in effect, two separate standards, one imperial and the other metric. I hope that the Government will take a more positive view because the change needs Government support. It cannot be left to industry, although much of industry has succeeded in doing a great deal.
There is another aspect of standards to which I should like to refer and that is certification and the quality assurance. The Warner Report said that the reduction in numbers of specifications and certifying bodies would help to reduce multiple assessment of suppliers and the sector working parties should report on this problem of multiple assessment and the feasibility of central registration of all quality assurance schemes. Here again, I hope the Government will give a great deal of emphasis. I should like to pay tribute to some of the civil servants who have been involved, but I should like to see a great deal more pressure coming from the top. Now we have had a Government publication, A National Strategy for Quality and a debate in NEDC on "An Approach to Quality" and, as one practical development, the establishment of the National Test Laboratories Accreditation Scheme. The decline in recent decades of Britain's reputation for products of the right quality continues to give rise to debate and there is still great scope for quality assurance and certification schemes in British industry.
I apologise for speaking so much about the work of the British Standards Institution but they are the people who have been doing the work and giving the lead. But they cannot achieve the results they want without more support and without a Government lead. British standards for materials, components and processes are the backbone of quality assurance programmes and British standards for sampling, inspecting and measuring are basic tools for quality assessment.
A new development of particular importance is a group of British Standards giving guidelines to assist companies in achieving and maintaining quality throughout production, from design to marketing, and after-sales service. The central one is British Standard No. 5750, Quality systems. No company should be without it. The Government should circulate this to every company, for I know of many companies who have never heard of it. It is based on a very successful quality assurance programme which was instituted by the Ministry of Defence 10 years ago.
Many noble Lords will remember the BSI Standard title "Kitemark" which was applied to third party certification schemes. There is again need for more promotion in this area. British industry is already required to provide proof of compliance with other countries' technical requirements in overseas markets. I do not want to take up too much of your Lordships' time in this technical way, although I could go on at considerable length on the subject of BS 5750. I should like to emphasise that standards are produced by partnership between all the interested parties—the users and the suppliers. They are effective only if they meet the needs of those involved. It is our responsibility to see that they do and they are used.
I should like to emphasise again to the Government that we should like to see a much stronger Government initiative and commitment to the use of British Standards throughout the public sector. Such an example
298
from Government should help to secure recognition of the value of standards at boardroom level. I believe that many large engineering users would respond, if they had not done so already, to an initiative by Government. This is essential if the potential of standards is to be fully exploited. To increase our industrial competitiveness Government should vigorously promote BS 5750.
I should like to end by referring to one country which I will not say is further ahead than we are but none the less is an example that we should note. It is often said that some countries, particularly West Germany, achieve their strength and success in export markets because of their strong national standards system. I should have liked to have followed the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, in discussing the secrets of success particularly in Japan and France and the influence of MITI which the noble Earl will know in relation to Japanese industry.
However, I should like to refer to DIN, the German standards organisation, as an example. Their influential position in the German economy plays a major role in the success of German production. There we see the full and active participation of users of products both in the public and private sectors. There is a very strong relationship in policy and participation between the standards body in West Germany and all the governmental and public sector authorities.
Through legislative provisions—and perhaps I may say a more conformist society—there is a marked attitude among manufacturers, users and purchasers that compliance with DIN standards will meet their needs and give confidence to others. This owes a good deal to the marketing of that German organisation's skills. An enhanced national status for German standards through an aggressive policy of partnership supports their trading success. There are some parts of the world where it is decisive now and will be decisive for years. This is the message that we should leave with the Government. We hope that some policy for action will be taken as a result of today's debate.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating
4.4 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Young): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. The Statement reads as follows:
"I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a Statement about the increases in social security benefits. The necessary up-rating order will come into operation on 23rd November next. This and the other up-rating instruments will be laid after the Social Security Bill becomes law.
"The standard rate of basic retirement pension for a single person will go up by £2·45 a week from £27·15 to £29·60. The rate for a married couple will go up by £3·90 from £43·45 to £47·35. Other long-term benefits which will be similarly increased include widows' pensions, industrial disablement

299
pensions, non-contributory invalidity pension, and attendance allowance.
"The standard rate of sickness benefit and unemployment benefit will go up by £1·85 for a single person from £20·65 to £22·50, and by £3·00 from £33·40 to £36·40 for a married couple. The increases in invalidity pension will be somewhat higher—for a single person the increase will be £2·35 taking the pension from £26·00 to £28·35, and for a married couple the increase will be £3·75 a week, increasing the invalidity pension from £41·60 to £45·35 a week.
"In calculating the new rates of benefit, account has been taken both of the 1 per cent. adjustment provided for by the Social Security Bill, to which the House gave a Second Reading on 24th February, and of the forecast, given by my right honourable and learned friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, of a 10 per cent. increase in the retail price index between November 1980 and November 1981. As I said on the Second Reading of the Bill, I would have wished that we did not have to make this adjustment, but, given the very tight constraints on public spending, which the Chancellor emphasised yesterday, we simply cannot afford the extra £225 million in a full year which the uprating of benefits would otherwise have cost.
"Supplementary benefits will all be increased next November on the same basis as national insurance benefits. War pensions will go up similarly and a Christmas bonus of £10 will be paid on the same basis as last year.
"For public service pensions, earnings-related components in national insurance pensions, and the pensions payable under the old graduated scheme, where there are no standard rates, the same principle of the 1 per cent. adjustment will apply. This will increase existing rates by 9·06 per cent. The same increase will apply to those who receive guaranteed minimum pensions from contracted-out occupational pension schemes.
"Last July I told the House that subject to economic and other circumstances we would maintain the value of child benefit in line with prices. As announced yesterday by the Chancellor, child benefit will be increased by 50p to £5·25 a week for each child—a 10½ per cent. rise—a little more than the expected rise in prices. One-parent benefit—the premium paid to lone parents—will go up from £3·00 to £3·30 a week. Thus, a one-parent family with two children will get £13·80 a week, compared with £12·50 at present.
"The prescribed levels of income for family income supplement will go up by £7·00 to £74·00 weekly for one-child families and the additional amount for each further child will be raised to £8·00 a week.
"I am glad to be able to announce, in the international Year of Disabled People, a substantial increase in mobility allowance from £14·50 a week to £16·50. This is an increase of nearly 14 per cent. and marks the importance which we attach to this allowance. We are particularly anxious to continue to make it possible for as many disabled people as can to lease or buy cars from Motability, and this
300
increase will help to ensure the continuing success of that scheme. The VAT relief on adaptations to cars for the disabled and the other VAT concessions announced yesterday will also be welcomed by disabled people.
"Turning to invalidity benefit, the Chancellor made it clear yesterday that it will not be possible to bring this benefit into tax next year, but I am anxious to make a start towards the restoration of the value of this benefit in advance of taxation. I therefore propose to restore the value of the invalidity allowances this November. These are the sums paid on top of the invalidity pension and depend on the claimant's age when incapacity begins. The cost of restoring these allowances and of the increase in real terms of the mobility allowance, will be met from the contingency reserve. Our pledge to restore the value of the invalidity pension itself when it comes into taxation now stands unqualified.
"Rising fuel costs are causing increasing anxiety among needy people, and the Government have every sympathy with the difficulties which they face. Last November we introduced the most generous fuel assistance package ever. We raised annual spending on fuel aid to over £200 million, concentrated on giving substantial help to those in the greatest need. This year, we aim to protect the value of that advance. Supplementary benefit heating additions, therefore, including the special boost we gave them last year, will be increased in line with the expected rise in fuel prices between November 1980 and November 1981.
"The basic rates of heating addition and the central heating addition will go up from £1·40 a week to £1·65 (that is, to £85·80 a year). Around 1½ million people will benefit from this increase, including all supplementary pensioner householders over the age of 70, and supplementary benefit householders with children under five. The higher rate heating addition will rise from £3·40 to £4·05, or £210·60 a year. Over 400,000 people are getting this increase, and they include the most severely disabled, who get it automatically. These increases in heating additions will cost an extra £40 million in a full year, which means that our total spending on fuel assistance will rise to over £250 million and will benefit over 2¼ million people.
"The cost of this up-rating will be about £2 billion in a full year. About £1½ billion will fall on the National Insurance Fund, and the balance comes out of the Consolidated Fund. I shall be reviewing contribution rates as usual in the autumn and any necessary changes will take effect from April 1982. For the convenience of the House, I am circulating details of the new rates of benefits in the Official Report, and copies are available in the Vote Office.
"This package of measures will bring help to the least privileged members of the community. The increase in pensions maintains our commitment to protect the real value of the pension over the lifetime of this Parliament. The increases in child benefit and the premium for one-parent families fulfil the undertaking to maintain the value of child benefit which I gave to the House in July last year. These increases and that in family income supplement are an indication of the importance we attach to

301
family support. The increase in mobility allowance and invalidity allowances for the disabled and the heating additions for the needy demonstrate our concern for these hard-pressed groups. Of course all of us, on both sides of the House, wish we could do more. But we have to take account of what we can afford. I hope the House will agree that the measures proposed are evidence of our determination to protect the most vulnerable in these very difficult times."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Following are the details of new rates referred to above:
INCREASED BENEFIT RATES
(The Social Security Act 1975, as amended, is referred to as "the Act"; the Social Security Pensions Act 1975, as amended, is referred to as "the Pensions Act")

PART 1 BENEFITS PAYABLE FROM NATIONAL INSURANCE FUND (see also Parts 3 and 4)

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Basic component of Category A retirement pension* (section 6(1)(a) of the Pensions Act), Category B retirement pension* (section 7 of the Pensions Act), widowed mother's allowance and widow's pension

27·15

29·60

Category B retirement pension* (section 29(7)(a)(i) of the Act

…

…

16·30

17·75

Basic component of invalidity pension

…

26·00

28·35

Standard rate of unemployment and sickness benefit:

Beneficiary under pension age

…

…

20·65

22·50

Beneficiary over pension age

…

…

26·00

28·35

Invalidity allowance:

Higher rate

…

…

5·70

6·20

5·45

Middle rate

…

…

3·60

4·00

3·45

Lower rate

…

…

1·80

2·00

1·75

Maternity allowance

…

…

20·65

22·50

Widow's allowance

…

…

38·00

41·40

Child's special allowance

…

…

7·50

7·70

Guardian's allowance

…

…

7·50

7·70

The weekly rate of graduated retirement benefit payable for each unit of graduated contributions will be increased by 9·06 per cent. from 3·54 pence to 3·86 pence.
* An age addition of 25p is payable to retirement pensions who are aged 80 or over.
The following sums will be increased by 9·06 per cent.:

(a) additional components in the rates of long-term benefits calculated by reference to any final relevant year earlier than the tax year 1981–1982.

(b) increases of retirement pensions for deferred retirement under Schedule 1 to the Pensions Act.

(c) increases of graduated retirement benefit for deferred retirement under Schedule 2 to the Social Security (Graduated Retirement Benefit) (No. 2) Regulations 1978.

(d) increments in guaranteed minimum pensions under Section 126A of the Act.

PART 2 BENEFITS PAYABLE FROM CONSOLIDATED FUND (BUT SEE ALSO PARTS 5 TO 8)

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Attendance allowance

Higher rate

21·65

23·65

Lower rate

14·45

15·75

Non-contributory invalidity pension

16·30

17·75

Invalid care allowance

16·30

17·75

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Mobility allowance

14·50

16·50

Category C or D retirement pension*

Higher rate

…

16·30

17·75

Lower rate

…

9·80

10·65

*An age addition of 25p is payable to retirement pensioners who are aged 80 or over.

PART 3 INCREASES FOR DEPENDANTS Increase for a wife or other adult dependant of:—

Category A or B retirement pension

16·30

17·75

Invalidity pension

15·60

17·00

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is over pensionable age)

15·60

17·00

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is under pensionable age) and maternity allowance

12·75

13·90

Non-contributory invalidity pension, invalid care allowance and Category C retirement pension

9·80

10·65

Increase for a qualifying child of:

Widow's allowance, widowed mother's allowance, invalidity, non-contributory invalidity and retirement pensions, invalid care allowance, unemployment and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is over pensionable age) and child's special allowance

7·50

7·70

Unemployment benefit and sickness benefit (where beneficiary is under pensionable age) and maternity allowance

1·25

0·80

PART 4 INDUSTRIAL INJURIES BENEFIT

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Injury benefit:

(a) beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to increase for child or adult dependant

23·40

25·25

(b) beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase

20·65

22·50

Disablement pension:

(a) beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to increase for child or adult dependant

Degree of disablement per cent.

100

44·30

48·30

90

39·90

43·47

80

35·40

38·64

70

31·00

33·81

60

26·60

28·98

50

22·20

24·15

40

17·70

19·32

30

13·30

14·49

20

8·90

9·66

b) beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase:

Degree of disablement per cent.

100

27·15

29·60

90

24·44

26·64

80

21·72

23·68

70

19·01

20·72

60

16·29

17·76

50

13·58

14·80

40

10·86

11·84

30

8·15

8·88

20

5·43

5·92

Maximum disablement gratuity will be increased from £2,950 to £3,210.

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Unemployability supplement

26·00

28·35

Increase of unemployability supplement for early onset of incapacity for work:

(a) if on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 35, or if that date fell before 5th July 1948

5·45

6·20

(aa) if (a) does not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 40 and he had not attained pensionable age before 6th April 1979

5·45

6·20

(b) if (a) and (aa) do not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 45

3·45

4·00

(bb) if (a), (aa) and (b) do not apply and on the qualifying date the beneficiary was under the age of 50 and had not attained pensionable age before 6th April 1979

3·45

4·00

(c) in any other case

1·75

2·00

Maximum increase of disablement pension in cases of special hardship

17·70

19·32*

Maximum increase of disablement pension where constant attendance needed:

(a) except in cases of exceptionally severe disablement

17·70

19·40

(b) in any case

35·40

38·80

Increase of weekly rate of disablement pension for exceptionally severe disablement

17·70

19·40

Increase of injury benefit for dependent children

1·25

0·80

Increase of disablement pension with unemployability supplement for dependent children

7·50

7·70

*or the amount (if any) by which the weekly rate of the pension, apart from any increase under sections 61, 63, 64 or 66 of the Act falls short of £48·30, whichever is the less.

Increase of injury benefit for adult dependant

12·75

13·90

Increase of disablement pension with unemployability supplement for adult dependant

15·60

17·00

Widow's pension—

(a) initial rate

38·00

41·40

(b) higher permanent rate

27·70

30·15

(c) lower permanent rate

8·15

8·88

Widower's pension

27·70

30·15

Allowance under Section 70 of the Act in respect of each qualifying child—

(a) higher rate

7·50

7·70

(b) lower rate

1·25

0·80

under Section 91(1) of the Act Maximum/aggregate of weekly benefit payable for successive accidents—

(a) beneficiary 18 or over or entitled to an increase in respect of a child or adult dependant

44·30

48·30

(b) beneficiary under 18 and not entitled to such an increase

27·15

29·60

Maximum weekly rate of lesser incapacity allowance supplementing workmen's compensation (Section 2(6)(c) of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Act 1975)

16·30

17·75

Weekly rate of allowance payable where disablement is not total (Section 7(2)(b) of the Industrial Injuries and Diseases (Old Cases) Act 1975)

16·30

17·75

PART 5 MAIN INCREASED SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT RATES

Existing ordinary weekly rate £

Existing long-term weekly rate £

Proposed ordinary weekly rate £

Proposed long-term weekly rate £

Supplementary benefit:

Husband and wife

…

34·60

43·45

37·75

47·35

Person living alone

…

21·30

27·15

23·25

29·60

Non-householder—age 18 and over

…

17·05

21·70

18·60

23·65

age 16–17

…

13·10

16·65

14·30

18·15

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Any other person aged:

11–15 years

10·90

11·90

under 11 years

7·30

7·90

Non-householder housing addition

2·15

*to be announced

Heating additions to supplementary benefit

1·40

1·65

3·40

4·05

Dietary additions to supplementary benefit

1·20

*to be announced

2·80

8·00

Blindness addition to supplementary benefit

1·25

1·25

Addition for claimant, or dependant over age 80

25p

25p

* After the February index of retail prices becomes available.

PART 6 MAIN INCREASED WAR PENSION RATES

All ranks receive the same increases, officers' rates being expressed in pounds per annum.

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Disablement benefits

Disablement pension for Private at 100 per cent. rate

44·30

48·30

Unemployability allowances

Personal allowance

28·80

31·40

Increase for wife or other adult dependant

16·30

17·75

Increase for child

7·50

7·70

Comforts allowance

Higher rate

7·70

8·40

Lower rate

3·85

4·20

Allowance for lower standard of occupation (maximum)

17·70

19·32

Constant attendance allowance

Special maximum

35·40

38·80

Special intermediate

26·55

29·10

Normal maximum

17·70

19·40

Half and quarter day

8·85

9·70

Age allowance with assessments of:

40 and 50 per cent.

3·10

3·35

Over 50 and not exceeding 70 per cent.

4·80

5·25

Over 70 and not exceeding 90 per cent.

6·85

7·50

Over 90 per cent.

9·60

10·50

Exceptionally severe disablement allowance

17·70

19·40

Severe disablement occupational allowance

8·85

9·70

Existing annual rate £

Proposed annual rate £

Clothing allowance

Higher rate

…

…

59·00

65·00

Lower rate

…

…

37·00

41·00

PART 7 FAMILY INCOME SUPPLEMENT

Existing weekly level £

Proposed weekly level £

Family Income Supplement:

Prescribed amount for family with one child (gross income below which FIS is payable)

…

…

…

…

67·00

74·00

Increase in prescribed amount for each additional child

…

…

…

…

7·00

8·00

Maximum weekly amount for a one-child family

…

…

…

…

17·00

18·50

Increase in maximum amount for each additional child

…

…

…

…

1·50

1·50

PART 8 CHILD BENEFIT

Existing weekly rate £

Proposed weekly rate £

Child benefit:

each child

4·75

5·25

Child benefit increase (one parent benefit):

first or only child of certain lone persons

3·00

3·30

4.12 p.m.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, I am sure the whole House would wish me to express its gratitude to the noble Baroness the Minister for allowing us to hear the Statement made by her right honourable friend in another place. The Statement makes it difficult, by the way it is worded, to ask the Minister any questions, but it lends itself to a great deal of comment. I will bear in mind what is required of a speaker in this situation and will try to rely, if I can, upon questions, and not too many statements.
Perhaps I may be permitted to say that on this side of the House we are glad that the pension is to be paid this year after 52 weeks and not, as last year, after 54 weeks, when the Government did the pensioners out of two weeks' pension. What we hoped was that the Government would have a change of conscience in this matter and would have brought in the increase in pensions on the 16th November next rather than on the 23rd, but I know that whatever question I put to the noble Baroness the answer will be (and I understand her position) that of course we cannot afford it.
I want to draw attention to what was said by the noble Baroness the Minister in the third paragraph, when she said that the standard rate of unemployment benefit for a married couple will go up from £33·40 to £36·40 per week. I ask noble Lords opposite whether they feel that unemployment benefit for a married couple is at all realistic at £36·40 per week. I know I shall be told the couple can apply for supplementary benefit, but unemployment benefit by virtue of national insurance should meet the needs of a
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couple where the breadwinner is unemployed rather than that they should have to go (I was going to say cap in hand) for supplementary benefit. We feel that this is a very regrettable situation.
I want to refer, if I may, to the increase in child benefit of 50p a week. I think it ought to be remembered by noble Lords on all sides that we need to be realistic about this, and that we must relate what we say to the realistic situation. The Government were in office from May 1979 until November 1980—a period of 18 months—without increasing child benefit, although one of their election promises was that they would in fact do so much earlier. The increase which is to be given in November next of 50p a week will barely compensate for the increase due to inflation over the past year. I do not think anybody will deny that; and if child benefit is to be realistic it should have been a 95p increase in order to cover the 50p which was needed because of inflation last year and the extra 45p needed to cover inflation at the present moment.
Perhaps I may turn now to the family income supplement. I do so because I understand it is the Government's intention not to increase the tax threshold by the inflation rate, which they are obliged to do, if I have understood the position correctly, under the Finance Act 1977. It is obligatory on any Government to increase the threshold of taxation in line with the inflation every year, and this Government are refusing to carry out what is in the Finance Act 1977.
I realise that a Government are entitled to come to Parliament and, by order, if they can get the order through, be relieved of that responsibility. But it seems to me quite disgraceful that, having put this into the Finance Act after very careful discussion, the Government have decided that for this year, at least—these precedents are always bad—it will not be done. I raise the matter because at the present moment there are 80,000 families in receipt of family income supplement. Three-quarters of them pay income tax, and if the income tax threshold had gone up those people would in fact have been perfectly all right. I want to ask the Minister: now that the Government are not going to implement that particular provision of the Finance Act 1977, how many of the 80,000 will have to apply for supplementary benefit?
We on this side of the House are naturally glad, as I think all noble Lords will be, that there is going to be an increase in the mobility allowance, but, if I may quote from the Statement, it says:
"We are particularly anxious to continue to make it possible for as many disabled people as can to lease or buy cars from Motability, and this increase will help to ensure the continuing success of that scheme".
When your Lordships consider that the mobility allowance is going up by £2 a week and that petrol is going up by 20p per gallon, it cannot possibly be any incentive to people to buy cars; and those who have them will find it extremely difficult, in our submission, to go on running those cars.
I want to refer to fuel prices and to ask the Minister whether what has been done is at all realistic. The noble Baroness the Minister talked about the increase in gas and electricity prices. We realise that these are going up very substantially. But does the Minister know how many people on retirement pension—there are over 10 million of them—rely almost exclusively

307
on coal? Many of them are living alone in one room where they cannot store coal and they have to buy it in bags. If they live in a smokeless zone, they have to pay £1.35 for a 22lb. bag of smokeless fuel which means that they are paying something like £135 a ton. If they are not in a smokeless zone, they can buy 44lb. of ordinary coal at £1·83 per bag which means that they are paying something like £90 a ton for coal. I realise that there has to be a limit, but we in this House ought to try to see the background of so many of these people, and the Government's clawback of 1 per cent. for the so-called over-payment of last year is to be deplored.
The right honourable friend of the noble Baroness the Minister said in the Statement:
"This package of measures will bring help to the least privileged members of the community".
I do not deny that it will bring some help, but it is quite inadequate to meet the situation of a large number of people. It is the old story of the Government making the worst-off people in the community pay for their political mistakes and their policy failures. While we are glad to see these increases, we have very grave reservations as to whether more ought to have been given.
4.22 p.m.
Lord Banks: My Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for repeating the Statement made in another place. I should like to welcome the increase in the mobility allowance to which she referred. It is entirely appropriate that there should be a real increase in that in the International Year of Disabled People. But I have three brief points of criticism of the general statement which has been made.
The first is a criticism of the 1 per cent. reduction in the 10 per cent. which is necessary in the current year to offset inflation. In the Statement, the Government say that we simply cannot afford this 1 per cent. But I would ask the noble Baroness whether it is a fact that, so far as national insurance benefits are concerned, the provision of the 1 per cent. would not have caused a deficit in the National Insurance Fund. Secondly, so far as child benefit is concerned, we join in welcoming the increase of 50p, but regret that it is not the 95p which would have been required to restore the position to what is was in April 1979.
My third point of criticism is of the failure, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has already referred, to index income tax allowances. That surely must lead to a greater intermingling of tax and benefit, and would the noble Baroness not agree that that must considerably accentuate the poverty trap? So far as invalidity benefit is concerned, I am glad to know that the pledge to restore the value of that is now unqualified. What is the position with regard to the other benefits which suffered the 5 per cent. reduction? Do the Government now feel that they can make a qualified pledge in respect of them?
I have two brief final questions. What is the position about the earnings rule, which the Government are pledged to remove in the lifetime of this Parliament? Are any steps to be taken in that direction?—a direction which the noble Baroness has herself
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very eloquently advocated in the past. Finally, with regard to heating, while one must welcome the increase in the amount, is it not a fact that the scope of the heating arrangement will not be extended, and what does the noble Baroness feel about the position of people who are just above the supplementary benefit level and who are very much affected by high fuel prices?
4.25 p.m.
Baroness Young: My Lords, I was very glad to hear the welcome which the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, gave to the fact that the pension increase is to be paid after exactly 52 weeks. But I really cannot accept that we are not helping the poorest members of the community. Indeed, we have laid particular emphasis on helping those who are least well-off. If the noble Lord studies the Statement, I think he will see that the selective use of the money that we have available has been used to this effect.
He asked me, first, about unemployment benefit and the difficulties which an unemployed married couple would face with £36.40 a week. We all accept that it is very difficult when one is unemployed. But the noble Lord will, I think, accept that it is possible for unemployed people to have supplementary benefit and a number of other benefits which are given for people with low incomes, such as rent rebates and rate rebates. Although people may not like to apply for them they are, after all, part and parcel of what is available to poor people and I hope that those who are entitled to them will take them up.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and the noble Lord, Lord Banks, raised points about child benefit and it is very valuable that we have been able to increase this by 10½ per cent. from next November and have in this Budget helped families with children. I have heard both the noble Lord, Lord Banks, and the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, make the point which I have made myself; that over a long period of time taxation generally has tended to help single people and couples without children more than families with children. In this Budget, at any rate, families with children are being helped and it would be churlish to complain now that the help is not as great as we should wish. Of course, we should all like more but they are being singled out for help and it is right that they should be.
The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, said it was quite wrong that what is known in common parlance as the Rooker-Wise amendment should not be agreed to, but I understand that the Act under which this amendment has been used in the past makes it quite clear that it comes into effect only when Parliament so determines. So, of course, it is right that Parliament should have an opportunity to consider this again.
Both noble Lords raised the question of Motability and, again, we have used what money is available to assist those who require help in the International Year of Disabled People. I am sure that the £2 a week increase in the allowance will be very valuable. Both noble Lords also raised the question of fuel prices. My understanding is that it is anticipated that fuel prices will rise by about 18 per cent. between November 1980 and November 1981. Again, we have used the money that is available to help those

309
who are most in need. I am afraid that I do not have the answer to the question which the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, put to me, about those who use only coal. But if I can get the figures for him, I shall write to him on that point.
The noble Lord, Lord Banks, raised the question of the 1 per cent. reduction in pensions. As he knows, we have kept to our commitment that retirement pensions will keep up with prices over the lifetime of this Parliament, and the Social Security Bill, which is currently in another place, takes account of the 1 per cent. reduction which is necessary to put right the fact that last November the 16½ per cent. increase was 1 per cent. over the rate of inflation. I think he is raising a completely different issue when he asks whether payment of the 1 per cent. would have caused a deficit in the National Insurance Fund. The point about increases in pensions is that they should keep up with prices. The effect on the National Insurance Fund is a separate matter.
Turning to the 5 per cent. de-indexing of certain benefits which was the subject of a Bill in this House last year, as the Statement makes clear we are already taking steps to increase the invalidity allowances which are paid to invalidity pensioners, who are the worst off. This is supplementary help. By increasing those invalidity allowances and making an unqualified statement that we shall restore the value of invalidity pensions and bring them back into tax, we believe that this will help invalidity pensioners.

Industry: Efficiency and Competitiveness
4.31 p.m.
Debate resumed.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, this seems to be an Anglo-Irish day in the House of Lords, with the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and now myself. And I see that my noble friend Lord Bessborough has his name down to speak. Sometimes I think that this particular little pocket of black feet, or pied noir, in our society has sometimes become ignored, so I am glad that we are all trying to fly the flag today.
Also I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for having attracted three maiden speakers: the noble Lord, Lord Benson, whom we know, among many things, for his sterling work on the Royal Commission on the Legal Services, my noble friend Lord McAlpine of Moffat, who has kept up standards in the great construction industry in this country and, of course, my noble friend Lord Matthews. I congratulate him on keeping up quality and standards in the press, as I think nearly everybody who appears in photographs in his great newspaper still has all his clothes on.
I am rather nervous of the noble Lord, Lord Matthews. Once I referred to him by name in a debate in your Lordships' House at a time when he was being rather fiercely critical of my own department. My reward for this was that the noble Lord was ennobled the next day. And a week later, in a leading article, I was mentioned somewhat unfavourably. But I suppose that is an ordinary, occupational risk which politicians take. In any case, I think junior Ministers
310
are grateful for publicity of whatever kind, or wherever it comes from.
We are to debate a twin subject: the issues of competitiveness and the relations between competitiveness and standards of quality control for our products so that they will be sold more competitively in world markets. In our debate on unemployment last week, I stressed that our policies as a Government had two overriding aims. The first aim is to continue to bring down domestically induced inflation, by which I mean that proportion of price rises which is caused by devaluation of the currency at home. The second and hardly separable aim is to improve the competitive position of our industry: to bring it into line, so to speak, with the very successful and very competitive other bits of our economy—agriculture, retailing, financial services, journalism, for instance—as well as into line with the many sectors of industry which are themselves still successful. That is why I very much welcome this debate and the continuity it provides with that earlier theme, as both of these Motions underline the importance that we have to attach to improving our competitiveness.
I think nobody can doubt, today of all days, the Government's commitment to the control of domestically induced inflation. I do not want to go over that ground now or to repeat the commitments that were made here last week and which the Budget Statement has of course confirmed, but I do want to make it very clear to the House that it is our analysis that greater competitiveness depends on greater investment in industry and that greater investment in industry cannot take place in an unsuitable financial climate, or an unstable financial climate.
In a notable maiden speech, I think about a year and a half ago, the noble Lord, Lord Lever of Manchester, reminded us that there was no shortage of capital in this economy. We have the corporate social capital of the great insurance, building and pension funds as well as of other financial savings institutions. There is no shortage of capital in the economy. But, the noble Lord, Lord Lever, reminded us, there is a shortage of profitable ventures to attract the money. I qualify this a little, admittedly in the different context of today's debate. There is a shortage of profitable ventures within the manufacturing sectors of our economy because these are what have lost competitiveness overall. Some manufacturing industries are still highly competitive and I rejoiced to hear some of these itemised by the noble Lord, Lord Shannon, in his opening speech. I may mention others in just a moment. But we have lost manufacturing competitiveness overall.
Nor is this shortage of profitable manufacturing ventures the only trouble. There is the problem of rival attractions for investment. To put this bluntly, you do not in an era of inflation, of currency instability, put your money very readily into industry. The first call on money is the search for investments that will beat inflation. So you get the rush into consumer durables—"Let's buy them quickly before they go up"—into property or into the savings or pensions funds which invest principally in inflation beating assets like property. That too, unfortunately, is not the only rival attraction for investment. Inflation, followed by the inevitable counter-inflation policies, puts a great

311
strain on Government budgets. As you lose industrial competitiveness, people lose jobs, the Government lose revenue and, as if this were not bad enough, the Government have to pay out more in benefits. As you struggle to regain industrial competitiveness, people have to be bought out of uncompetitive, over-manned industries. In a humane and civilised society it is of course only right that people should be bought out, not thrown on the scrap heap, and that there should be training and re-training provisions for them as well as the benefits to which they have become entitled.
But that is all hugely expensive. So Governments have to borrow money, and this borrowing pre-empts the resources which might otherwise find their way into long term investment. If my right honourable friend the Chancellor had yesterday decided to increase rather than reduce his own overdraft, so to speak, as many people of all shades of opinion would have liked him to do, the difference would have had to be funded. And that funding is the rival attraction which I am talking about. That becomes the profitable avenue for investment: lending money to the Government and compelling the Government to keep interest rates high as they are compelled to offer people a decent return.
We were criticised in the debate last week for failing to distinguish between spending and borrowing for current requirements and spending and borrowing for the future—for, let us say, a big programme of investment-led, not consumer-led, reflation. Speaking as an employment Minister, I should dearly like to see an exciting programme of improvements to the infrastructure: the roads, railways or airports. I should love the surge in demand, not least in the private sector, and the jobs that would thereby be created. But that money would still have to be borrowed or taxed. We have had to increase taxes against all our wishes.
If we increase our borowing also, the pain which the consumer suffers now, which can be short term, will be felt by industry as a whole, whether it is public or private industry and because the lead times are longer for industry the pain will be felt by industry for a long time and will result in an even greater loss of competitiveness, confidence and jobs. I hope therefore that your Lordships will see that the tough decisions on public borrowing are altogether inseparable from our continued drive towards greater competitiveness and the pressures that we are having to continue to bring to bear, at least for a while longer, on this industrial society.
My Lords, you would expect me, as an employment Minister, to say something about the role of wages in the drama of our competitive decline, and these again were touched on by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon. I am thinking in particular of the decline in our labour-intensive manufactured goods that people at home and abroad will buy at prices they can afford. I believe that the main factor in our declining competitiveness has been our input costs. There is evidence that in this country our input costs are a great deal higher than elsewhere. One breakdown of the figures illustrating our loss of competitiveness suggests that 60 per cent. of the fall since 1978—and that fall is about 50 per cent. itself—and about half the fall since the beginning of 1979—and that fall is about 40 per cent. itself—were due to labour costs rising
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faster in the United Kingdom than in the competitor countries.
I am quite prepared to say that we are all to blame: we can blame weak management or restrictive labour practices or labour monopolies, or the upward pressure of on and off incomes policies, or Governments inflating their way out of trouble for this melancholy decline. However, our analysis is that this area of dealing with wages is an area which can only be tackled effectively for any length of time at company level and based on a realistic assessment of what is happening in an economy and what is happening in a given company. The impetus behind many of the very high settlements negotiated in recent years was theoretically an attempt to keep up with inflation. In fact these merely contributed to inflation. What is more, until recently, average earnings were rising faster than inflation and without corresponding increases in productivity—or, in the context of this debate, I could say without corresponding increases in competitiveness. That of course was all damaging to our international competitiveness.
Again, the figures spell it out. Between 1975 and 1980 unit labour costs rose here by 85 per cent.; in France the figure was 43 per cent.; in the United States of America, 33 per cent.; in Germany, 11 per cent., and in Japan they actually fell by 2 per cent. My Lords, do you wonder that the Chancellor has been obliged to take back from consumers some of the real gains which they have made but which our productivity and our competitive position unfortunately do not yet allow us?
I am glad to say, after these rather gloomy figures, that the discipline provided by the recession and reinforced by the Government's tight money squeeze has resulted in a substantial moderating of wage settlements in recent months, and that is, of course, very welcome. But this praiseworthy restraint will have been wasted if there is a wage explosion when the economy recovers. Unit labour costs represent an area where we can make real strides towards closing the gap with our major competitors if we can only make the most of the opportunity when the upturn comes, but, if wages once more outstrip productivity gains by another wide margin in the next round, this country will slide even further away from international competitiveness and the consequences of that—not least for employment—will be very grave. Do you wonder, my Lords, at the scepticism which makes us believe that the reflation which our critics are calling for would once more be swallowed up in renewed wage pressures and renewed inflation? The fruit of the gains we have made is what has to fortify the investment and the renewal that we need.
The noble Earl, Lord Shannon, mentioned high technology and the rate at which we adapt to the speed at which technology is changing. I think it is commonplace that Britain is passing through a transition from one kind of industrial society to another. Many of the stresses and strains—which we are, I think, as a matter of social fact, hearing remarkably well—are in my view due less to policy differences between different political groups than to rites of a passage that we can no longer afford not to undertake. We are moving from a cheap-food, low-wage, high-manned and low-technology industrial society to a dear-food,

313
high-wage, lower-manned and higher-technology society. We are making this move under the impetus of great competitive pressures in areas where we used to be strong, like manufacturing.
We are under pressure, too, from parts of the world which used to be weaker and poorer than ourselves. Because we are a trading nation our standard of living depends on adjusting to this competition and taking it on—not running away from it—and we have to move from here to there. "Here" is an industrial landscape, an important part of the whole economy, which is besieged by three enemies: world recession, structural change and our tight money squeeze. "There" is not Utopia—to which I think only fools aspire—but an economy in much better balance with the mix of jobs, skills, opportunities and regional possibilities.
Without any question I believe that the most advanced society today—and again it has been mentioned several times in this debate—in purely industrial terms is Japan. Japanese industry has adapted to dear energy and technical change with considerable success and without social trauma. Not in the same way, perhaps, but in some way, we have to do the same, and that is why I welcome the inward investment which Japan is undertaking in this country and the industrial habits that we are learning from them. This, together with the fight against inflation, is why we, as a Government, are keeping up the disciplines and the pressure to adapt on our national allies in industry, and of course part of that adaptation—and, unfortunately, a very expensive part—is the shedding of surplus labour, which is essential to the successful future of manufacturing industry and to the levels of employment in those other bits of the economy which depend on a successful manufacturing side.
My Lords, I shall close with a reference to standards and to quality, and I shall deal in a little more detail, if I may, with the points put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, if given leave to wind up. I, too, should like to pay tribute to the Warner Report and to Sir Fred Warner. British industry over many years has won and held an enviable reputation in world markets for the quality of its manufactured goods. Our best firms still have a reputation for quality that is second to none. I am thinking of such sectors as defence equipment and arms, information technology, offshore equipment, aerospace—and I understand that there is very good news from America in respect of Rolls-Royce today—chemical products, luxury vehicles and luxury manufactured goods generally, whether they are cloths, high fidelity equipment or manufactured foods. We are rightly proud of all these achievements and other noble Lords could contribute their own lists.
However, since the war there have been signs that part of our fall in the world market share has been associated with a decrease in overall competitiveness due not to the wage and inflationary elements that I have been speaking about but to non-price factors. Overseas firms which combine market research designs with a strong awareness of their customers' needs on quality and delivery have been capturing an increasing share of the markets, so of course I agree that more systematic attention to quality is needed in future and I welcome the stress laid by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, on good design. Greater sophistication of users' requirements and increased discrimination by
314
purchasers is already increasing the competition for some of our at present most advanced designs and products. During the next decade further industrialisation in low-cost countries will surely heighten price competition for all developed countries. We also have to absorb the effect of North Sea oil on our currency. So even more than some of our chief competitors we have to adopt techniques for minimising production wastage and keeping our prices keen. The successful companies—and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, itemised some of these techniques—will be those who maintain and strengthen their performance in these respects.
My Lords, the Government's view therefore is that the key rôle in achieving quality in goods must be to rely on individual manufacturing firms. The successful manufacturer ensures that he knows what quality features in his product his customers want rather than expecting to find customers for what he produces. He has the means for ascertaining those requirements and a management system capable of ensuring that they are satisfied. While, of course, top management commitment is at the heart of this success, a co-operative approach within companies is, I think, essential. Each employee at every level has to be brought to see that product quality is in his own interests. This is another area where the Japanese have been very successful and where we must quite frankly adapt their success and imitate them. I can tell the House that in all our industrial training schemes now we are trying to build in attention to quality and quality control techniques.
I can also say that public sector purchasers are considering the practicability of quality-assessed supplies, and that Government departments, which are of course themselves huge purchasers in this economy, are examining the scope for greater co-ordinated use of product certification; and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, urged that upon us. We are, therefore, putting our own house in order, and we urge others in the economy to do so as well because although, under the pressures and disciplines of recession, counter-inflation policy and all the rest, we in this country are painfully beginning to make improvements and mend our ways, in spite of this we have to remember that others, our competitors, are themselves coming under similar pressures and are adapting what may be their own better habits themselves. So I welcome the chance this debate has given us all to remind ourselves that competitive pressures increase all the time, and that we have little time to lose.
4.53 p.m.
Lord Gregson: My Lords, may I, too, thank the noble Earl for introducing the first subject of today's debate, and for doing so in such a wide-ranging speech based on his very considerable knowledge. I should also like to congratulate the noble Earl on the timing, considering the importance of the subject relative to the events in another place yesterday. May I also thank my noble friend Lord Shackleton for introducing the second subject of today's debate, which is such an important part of the overall question of Britain's competitiveness in world trade. Of course, one has to acknowledge Lord Shackleton's considerable contribution to the furthering of the generation of standards,

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especially being the president of the British Standards Institute; and also, of course, that of the noble Baroness, the predecessor of Lord Shackleton.
I might say that considering the complex and detailed nature of the problems that were reported on by Sir Frederick Warner I think it would have been better if each subject had had a place of its own on your Lordships' agenda, although I promise that I do not intend to make two speeches this afternoon. I should also like to comment, as other speakers have done, on the fact that we have three maiden speeches this afternoon. I well remember that the day on which I was introducing the debate on the Finniston Report was also the day on which one of the noble Lords was introduced. I said then that since we now had a civil engineer in the House I looked forward very much to his maiden speech. It just so happens that, by coincidence, we have two noble Lords involved in civil engineering; and, of course, Lord Benson, who is so well known. So I look forward to the contributions which those noble Lords will make to our debate.
My Lords, there is no doubt that this country must maintain its position as a major trading nation in the world if we are to provide even a reasonable quality of life for ourselves and our children. With a population of over 50 million we cannot feed or clothe ourselves, or provide the raw materials that are essential to maintain our industry, from the resources within our country. It is, therefore, crucial that we restore our competitive position, which has been so drastically eroded in recent times. It is true that the accidental advantage of North Sea oil and gas is providing a source of wealth that is distorting the short-term economic scenario and providing a soporific effect, but this is a very dangerous situation which must not be allowed to lull us into a false sense of security since the resources of the North Sea are finite. We would be foolish indeed if we fell into this trap when we have the object lesson of the problems that have faced the Dutch available to us. There is also the curious statistic of the United Kingdom maintaining export levels despite the drastic fall in competitiveness in world markets, but here again we must beware of a false sense of security since within these figures there is a large component of export orders secured before our competitive position deteriorated, which are not being repeated and much of which is now being supplied at ridiculously low margins, or even at a loss.
In introducing the substantive subject of the debate the noble Earl referred to seven criteria, on which he then proceeded to comment. I think our forefathers did much to simplify those seven criteria, because from my university days I remember an old adage of the 19th century that said that our competitive position in industrial goods consisted of the right product at the right price at the right time—and I should like to expand on the problem we are debating this afternoon on the basis of those three criteria the old adage proposed, in reverse order.
First, the right time. Our great grandfathers were not referring to a need to meet delivery dates, although meeting delivery dates is of vital importance, as the noble Earl told us. No; what was meant by the right time was being in the market plce at the right time and knowing what the market wants, whether it be an
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improved textile, a new fibre, a new alloy of steel or the most advanced micro-electronic equipment. It is probably better to do nothing at all and avoid wasting money and effort than to arrive in the market place too late. There is a desperate need for industry and government to improve commercial intelligence and market research, and for the Government to inspire industry to meet the needs of the market place with a greater sense of urgency. Nobody wins the jackpot for being left at the post.
Then, the right price. That must be the price that the market will pay for the right product at the right time, unless we were foolish enough to attempt to trade at a loss. Costs must be a critical feature. The two factors most affecting external trading are productivity and exchange rates. It is all too easy to criticise the low productivity in the United Kingdom as stemming from the Luddite minds of the workforce and the trade unions. The media revel in it. But careful investigation and case studies have proved that volume variance, that is the workload, and investment are by far the most dominant factors that affect productivity. It is ironic that, despite a massive reduction of employment in manufacturing industry of 1,100,000 in the lifetime of this Government, there, has resulted, according to the Financial Times, a reduction of individual productivity in the manufacturing industries of some 5 to 7 per cent. It is incredible.
It is essential, if productivity is to be improved, for there to be a dramatic increase in the volume of new orders and an even more dramatic increase in the rate of investment in advanced manufacturing processes and equipment and I can see little encouragement to industry in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech yesterday. I think that that is a considerable understatement. On the question of exchange rates, I hope that in the last few weeks sufficient has been said by the appeals of the CBI, engineering employers and other trade associations and by the TUC to bring home the urgent necessity of bringing down the ridiculous exchange rate which has brought industry to its knees. I do not believe that a reduction of interest rates, unless they are brought down well into single figures, will be sufficient in itself. The distortions that are applied from the petro-currency effect of the North Sea will have to be dealt with by intervention and controls, otherwise the dismal picture outlined by Forsythe and Kaye in their famous, or should I say infamous, paper delivered to the Institute of Fiscal Studies will come to pass. That is the demise of manufacturing industry in this country.
Finally, the right product. This is where I believe the real crisis exists. We are being left behind in the technological race, not only by the major nations in the western world, but we are now being threatened by the rapidly developing second and third tier countries. South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore are all coming on to the market place with better products than we have developed. I have often spoken in your Lordships' House about the desperate need to nurture innovation for the future well-being of the United Kingdom and I hope it is now becoming apparent to the majority of people that we cannot sell an out-of-date, badly designed or unreliable product at almost any price and that is the crucial state where we are at

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present lodged. There is an urgent and desperate need to foster innovation, industrial R and D and product development, and to organise better quality.
It is indeed ironic that when the need is greatest, industry is in the worst state in history to respond to the challenge, because innovation, industrial R and D and the organisation of quality cost money and, other than some very paltry sums from Government, that has to come from the profits generated by industry. It does not come from the profits made in the City of London. It has got to come from the profits made in the workshops and I assure your Lordships that if you talk at the present time to any industrialist his retort would be, "what profits?".
This Government, by pursuing the policies they have, have squeezed both the profitability and the liquidity of industry to such an extent that it is now completely unable to respond, and without massive Government intervention private industry cannot avoid the desperate spiral of absolute decline to which it is irrevocably committed. It is essential that the Government must pump prime innovation and product development throughout industry in both the private and public sectors, and can I make it clear that I am not merely referring to the so-called sun-rise industries, which is the latest jargon of those with an axe to grind. We must include the basic industries such as textiles and steel, which still have tremendous potential for investment and application of the new technologies. There is a thousand times more potential in a new steel making process, or a new textile manufacturing route than in a coin-in-the-slot game of "Star Wars".
Two essential elements of the right product factor of our competitive position in world trade have been dealt with in the Warner Report. Those are standards and specifications and the organisation of quality and we cannot divorce either from having the right product in the market place at the right time. The clear message that I get from the Warner Report on both these subjects is that of fragmentation and duplication and a lack of co-ordination and a lack of determination in Government to resolve the problems that exist.
Having said that, I should like to place on record my appreciation of the work of the British Standards Institution, despite the fact that it lacks sufficient support both from industry and from Government. Considering the tremendous influence that Government agencies and nationalised industries have on the purchase of plant and equipment in this country, one would have thought that it is not beyond the wit of man for the Government to co-ordinate their activities for the benefit of industry, particularly since the establishment of national and international standards and specifications are absolutely crucial to assist industry to maximise its export potential. I wonder whether the Minister, when replying to the debate, can tell us what has happened to the public sector standardisation team set up in 1970 and tell us what progress has been made in this vitally important area of Government activity, or is this one of the Quangos that disappeared from sight in the recent slaughter?
Turning now to the other question, I do not think that I need to stress to your Lordships the importance of quality in defending the United Kingdom position.
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It is absolutely vital and yet, here again, we find fragmentation, disagreement and lack of drive to bring about a national movement that is critical in matching the competition from abroad. Despite the valient efforts of the British Standards Institute and people like Sir Frederick Warner, we have still not got a national quality assurance board and almost every Government agency and nationalised industry still has its separate quality assurance organisation and standards. I really do urge the Government to redress this situation with all urgency, and to say that industry would indeed be grateful to have this problem resolved. Our export performance would benefit and I am sure industry would be better placed to stem the ever-growing tide of imports.
One other aspect of standards and specifications, and indeed quality standards, is their over-zealous use by some countries to frustrate imports. A great deal has been said about this subject, particularly relating to France and Japan and I would say that if these tactics continue to be used as an obstacle to fair competition in world trade, then they must be dealt with formally and the problem brought to a quick resolution, even if this means retaliation by the application of sanctions, because it is a serious and insidious technique which must not be allowed to continue.
On a number of occasions I have listened to the Secretary of State for Industry lecturing on the havoc wrought on the economy of this country by the anti-business culture and the industrial devastation it has produced. This Government, of which the Secretary of State is a member, must go down in the history books as the outstanding manifestation of the anti-industry culture, and I can only hope that miracles still happen and that the Government will totally reverse their attitude in the second half of their term of office. Otherwise industry will be decimated, unemployment will continue to escalate and the very social fabric of this Kingdom will be threatened.
5.9 p.m.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, it is ironic to be discussing the competitiveness of British industry the day after the Budget when there were so many lost opportunities to improve that competitiveness. There was no reduction in the national insurance surcharge; virtually nothing was done to change the level of the exchange rate of the pound which appears to be practically as high today as it was yesterday; and nothing has been done to increase the flow of money into the investment which industry so badly needs. Was it really impossible to extend the use of the indexed bond, which is being offered to the pension institutions, to a far wider public—what is so special about the age of 50?—in order to raise money which would have been used for the investment of industry? If the Government believe in their anti-inflation policy, they need offer a very small return on top of indexation, and the cost of the borrowing of that money would be very little in comparison with the benefits that would accrue from the investments which could then be made.
Last week we discussed the folly of economising on capital investment as well as economising on

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revenue. We on these Benches sympathise with the need to economise on revenue spending, but we stand where we stood last week on the nonsense of failing to put more resources into industrial development. That is what competitiveness requires. So today, in this debate, all we can do is to look at those matters where we can take action, given that the investment is not likely to be there.
First and foremost in the limited area in which we still have some room to manoeuvre is better use of manpower resources. Here I know that the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, has much sympathy with what we on these Benches would like to see done and is, I believe, in many ways attempting to do what he can to ensure that these things are done. Before dealing with the major area of better use of manpower resources, I should like to take up one point made by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, when he referred to the very great importance of trade inside the EEC—where, after all, the bulk of our exports now go and where an increasing proportion ought in future to go—and to ask that far greater attention should be paid to the teaching of languages to people going into industry. It is absurd for us to attempt to sell throughout the EEC and, indeed, in South America, with a lack of equipment in resources for those who have to do the job of selling.
In the past British industry has rested far too much on its ability to have ideas, to design goods to manufacture, and has had a certain contempt for marketing, for it is a contempt for marketing if you do not send out salesmen and people in the marketing field who are able to speak in the language of the customers whom they are approaching, and to speak with a full knowledge of the language, with all its nuances and idiosyncrasies. Therefore, money should be devoted to crash courses and also to much more thorough training in languages. Those of us who work in any way with people from the EEC are constantly conscious of the way in which our competitors stream ahead because of their ability to talk in the language of the customers with whom they are dealing.
Secondly, if we believe in competitiveness and if we believe—and the Government declare that they do—in making better use of resources, perhaps I could anticipate a future debate and say that the Government cannot really believe that this will be achieved by cutting back on the work of the industrial training boards. They are already in the field to improve the effectiveness of manpower, and to improve it where it matters, which is inside the place of work. The evidence is quite clear that the most effective training is carried out inside the place of work, not in Government establishments outside the place of work. This is precisely the role of the industrial training boards, supplemented of course by their own training courses; basically, their role is to improve the level of training inside the place of work. I implore the Government to think again before they use the powers which they propose to take to cut back the work of the industrial training boards.
However, when it comes to better use of resources, it is of course true—and many people in industry will tell you this—that, although we need more investment, a very great deal more could be done with the investment
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that we already have if more effective use was made of existing resources. One way—indeed, ultimately the only way—to do this is to have far better understanding and commitment within the place of work as to what is involved in running a successful business, to get the flexibility, the willingness to learn new techniques and the willingness to try new processes. If we had that we would be able, even now, to improve our competitiveness without the additional investment, which it does not look as though we shall get. Not long ago I was in a works which was in avery difficult position; they were saying that if only they could get greater flexibility in the workforce over the willingness to take on new jobs in exchange for the ones that they already had things would improve; but outmoded ideas as to what was appropriate for people to do restricted them in developing this flexibility which, in a company which was on the verge of going bankrupt, could have saved them.
If we are to do this, then it is bascially an issue of industrial relations, but it is also an issue of incentive. Here again I say to the noble Earl: why in yesterday's Budget was further encouragement not given to profit-sharing schemes, and to the whole effort that is needed to link the interests of the workforce more directly to the profitability of the undertaking? In this country we have to overcome a deep-seated belief that there is something suspicious about profit-making. Yet surely the best way to do this is for people to see that if there is a profit, not only are their jobs more secure—and perhaps some are beginning to sec this now, although the lesson has been learned in the most costly way possible—but that they will, indeed, benefit immediately by return in their own pockets.
A start was made on this in 1978 and in an earlier Budget the Government did something to improve encouragement to link people more closely to the fortunes of their undertakings. There is nothing whatever in yesterday's Budget to encourage greater co-operation inside the place of work. What has been done with the development of industrial democracy, or whatever term you like to use, for harnessing the interests and determination of the rank and file and of middle management to the fortunes of the concern? This Government, and I believe the noble Earl himself, believe in schemes of this kind. They did not believe in the compulsory scheme proposed by the Bullock Committee, and nor did we on these Benches. But that is no reason for doing nothing. I should like to ask the noble Earl when we are likely to hear more about this, because this is one of the fundamental ways in which to get the increased competitiveness that we seek and it is far more necessary to do it now, when the capital will not be forthcoming, when the Government have not given the encouragement to industry for which industry had hoped.
In addition to making better use of manpower, I believe that there is another fundamental change in attitudes in industry which would greatly help our competitiveness. I was going to say that it is a return, but perhaps it is not a return; perhaps it never existed. It is the development of the very simple idea—the truism—that the consumer is the person who matters. Today it is so often the case that producers, in both the public sector and the private sector, regard the consumer as an irritating cross which has to be borne,

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whether the consumer is trying to get someone from the electricity board to read his meter (I know that this is a bit of a King Charles head of mine) at a time when he has repeatedly told them that he will be in and not at a time when he has repeatedly told them that he will be out, or whether it is a consumer trying to get a builder to repair broken panes or a flooded floor, with the builder not coming at the time he is asked or, when he has come, all too often the job having to be done a second time; and in my experience you cannot even get a bill out of him. What kind of approach to consumer service is that?
Let us remind everyone that there is no point in having production if there is no consumer; that the sole justification for having producers is that there are consumers. This is very old fashioned, but I believe that the revival of this idea would do more to revitalise British industry than anything else. When I talk about producers, I am talking about both management and the workforce. Indeed, I regret to say that sometimes what passes for good industrial relations is little more than collusion between the two sides of industry to do down the consumer.
There are other things which, if we were really thinking about the consumer, we would be doing. There is the attack on monopoly. For my part I am delighted that the Government are bringing competition into the nationalised industries. If they can discover any more Sir Frederick Lakers lurking around waiting to break down the monopolistic powers of the nationalised industries, then the sooner they bring them to the forefront and back them the better.
How about monopoly in the private sector? We do not seem to have heard much about reference to the Monopolies Commission. I would ask the noble Earl who is to reply: how long does it still take to get a finding from the Monopolies Commission? I think I am right in saying that the average time is about three years. We cannot wait this length of time for monopoly-busting in this country if we want to become competitive.
Then there is the question of quality—quality which, of course, ties up with price. That is, getting a better return for the money you pay in terms of good quality. Here the question of the work of the British Standards Institution, to which reference has already been made, comes in, and the report of Sir Frederick Warner. That work has gone on for a considerable length of time, but on far too small a scale and with far too little support.
As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, I had the great honour—the most unsuitable honour, I always thought—to be his predecessor as president of the British Standards Institution. In those days the qualification seemed to be that you were a Member of your Lordships' House. They have now had the wisdom to get a distinguished engineer to be their president, which on the whole does seem to be a better specification.
Lord Shackleton: My Lords, would the noble Baroness allow me to intervene? Tributes have been paid to us, and I feel that we really ought to pay tribute to the staff of the British Standards Institution and all the members of the committees. I am sure she is going to do that anyway, but I missed my chance.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, I am glad to be reminded because, to be quite frank, I was not. I am delighted to do so, and all the more delighted because I am glad to see that they are in the Gallery. The British Standards Institution not only operates to improve quality in manufacturing in this country, to reduce costs by the rationalisation of specifications based on standards; it also works in a most distinguished way in the international field. The experts of the British Standards Institution are playing their part—and a leading part it is—in standard-setting inside the EEC and throughout the international field. This means that the British level of standards, British quality measurements, are an influence upon developments far outside this country.
That being so, surely the institution needs the greatest possible support from the Government in honouring their undertakings to the representations made by the British Standards Institution. Here I refer to the development of metrication. The British Standards Institution developed standards of metrication years ago, and every understanding of the position was that metrication would become the policy of the Government. I know that the previous Government intended that metrication should be brought in, but pressure of public opinion, to which the Government bowed at that time, was such that this did not happen.
It is ridiculous that those standards were worked out years ago but that many manufacturers are still operating in both imperial and metric standards. How utterly wasteful this is, especially when something over 90 per cent. of the people to whom we sell overseas have in fact metrication as their own internal standard. Can the Government really not have the courage to dig out the whole issue of metrication again, which no doubt they hope has quietly gone away, and see that this particular waste does not continue any longer?
These are just a small number of things which the Government must do if they are to make good some of the damage caused by yesterday's inadequate Budget. At least they could give continuing support themselves to the work of the institution. It is understaffed; it has had to cut back its staff. Its staffing proportion compared to its German opposite number is quite inadequate. This is another area where Government spending would be a form of investment which would pay dividends over and over again. Why this capitalist Government do not understand the importance of investment passes my comprehension.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, could I return her to my speech, to which I noticed she was kind enough to pay great attention? We are very keen on investment, but the problem in this economy is how you finance it.
5.26 p.m.
Lord Benson: My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have had the privilege of addressing this House. I should like to make some observations on the broad issues and then to speak on only a narrow sector of the subject. Much of our industry in this country is lean, taut and competitive, and it has been brought to that position in part by the present recession. A comparatively small increase in volume now, which must surely take place, will have a dramatic effect on unit costs.

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But much of our industry is not in that state. It is not difficult to discern the impediments which prevent it from being competitive and profitable. Many of them have been imposed upon us from without, but many more are self-inflicted and self-imposed. High interest rates; an unstable exchange rate; low productivity; late deliveries; strikes; sloppy management; bad inspection; excessive wage demands; poor sales representation abroad; inadequate expenditure on research and development; and a totally inadequate capital investment programme.
Whenever I look at this formidable list I am reminded of my cousin Theodore. As a young medical student he had great difficulty in passing his examinations. Eventually an exasperated parent said: "Theodore, I cannot understand this. You have taken the examinations so many times you must know every question the examiners can ask you". He said, "Yes, father. I do know all the questions. It is the answers I don't know". That is the situation we are in. We know all the causes, but we seem incapable of learning and applying the answers. Time, my own incapacity, and the usage of this House prevent me from attempting so huge a canvas, but I should like to make one observation with conviction.
In this country we live by our industry, and unless all of us are prepared to work to a common purpose the outlook is glum. By all, I mean the Government of the day; the Opposition of the day; management at every level; the unions; the City, and individual citizens from the chairman of the board to the most recent apprentice; and a default by any one of them is damaging to our industrial effort, often permanently. Unless this common purpose dominates our decisions and our attitudes there is no hope whatsoever of recovering the markets we have lost at home and abroad. Nor yet of establishing new markets sufficient to sustain the population of these islands. Deep, ingrained prejudices, entrenched positions, often selfish in character, will I fear take years to eradicate. In so far as it is not already in post, we shall have to seek or to breed leadership of adequate stature.
I wish to speak on a single narrow sector of this huge subject—financial management. It has been my lot in life to examine many businesses, both large and small. Those who are not competitive, who have failed or have been unsuccessful and unprofitable, have one common fault running through them all—an inability to realise quickly enough the damaging effects of inflation and weak financial policies. The signs are unmistakable: an inadequate return on capital employed, excessive borrowing, inadequate retentions, dividends, when expressed in real terms, paid out of capital, wrong pricing policies, bad estimating, loose control of stock and debtors and an inability to plan forward, particularly cash flow, which results in an erratic investment programme.
Not all, but many of those would have been avoided if it had been realised early enough that accounts prepared on the historical cost convention, both annual and management accounts, are misleading and need to be adjusted to real terms and to reflect the effects of inflation. Particularly is this the case of fixed assets and stocks. Unhappily, there are many people in this country who have not yet been able to adjust them
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selves to this modern form of accounting. They decry, deride and denigrate it, and that is a grievous impediment to industrial progress.
I have recently been reading the life of Lord Lister. His great discoveries of antiseptic surgery were met with opposition, ridicule and apathy. Indeed, when his opponents noticed that the incisions they made in their patients' bodies were beginning to suppurate, they expressed great satisfaction and referred to it by the disagreeable name of laudable pus. The analogy is complete. Until we in this country learn that management and annual accounts prepared under the historical cost convention are no better than laudable pus, so long will a large number of our businesses move remorselessly and deservedly to the mortuary. I can summarise in a sentence what I want to tell your Lordships: Let us not emulate my cousin Theodore, but let us learn the common purpose—I now speak in metaphore—that historical cost accounts are no better than laudable pus.
5.33 p.m.
Lord Schon: My Lords, it is an honour and privilege to speak following the noble Lord, Lord Benson, who I congratulate on his maiden speech. I hope we shall hear him on many occasions in your Lordships House; he has much to contribute.
The subject of the Budget has been mentioned several times, as has the fact that a reduction in interest rates is a direct little saving which may also reduce the value of sterling below its highest point and thus help in some way our exporters rather than our importers. Moreover, I have noted an indication of a willingness on the part of the Government to accept some flexibility in the cost of gas and electricity. However, the main subjects we are discussing in this debate, for which we are grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, are productivity and competitiveness, two sides of the same coin.
In speaking to this subject, it is difficult to avoid appearing critical of our performance. I therefore start by being complimentary to our agricultural industry and to part of our service sector, such as banking and insurance, which have proved themselves second to none vis-à-vis their competitors in the world. To achieve industrial competitiveness, we must have higher productivity, and we need that very much. However, for what I would call human reasons, and psychological reasons in particular, it is hard to increase productivity in this time of high unemployment.
While in a very limited sector of industry, it is claimed, the recession has increased productivity, I have learnt through 27 years of intimate contact on a day-by-day basis with management and the people directly involved in production that lack of business and visible stockpiles of products ready for sale tend to reduce productivity. This tendency is based partly on selfishness—you do not want to work yourself out of a job—but more on a desire not to work your mate out of a job. I have learnt to understand and appreciate that attitude.
The only real way to increase productivity in prevailing circumstances is to sell more. How can we do that? Here I must ask your Lordships to forgive me for repeating what I have said on previous occasions; I may be repetitive but I am certainly consistent. I

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have been brought up to appreciate that to sell more, you must find a willing buyer, and the erudite buyer looks for quality, price and service. As for quality, I know we can achieve it. We can be innovative, we have the ability to be up-to-date and to be as good as anyone else I know, but we are poor exploiters of innovatory achievement. We are good on the technical side but not so good on the commercial side.
As for price, I am afraid the first thing which everybody must appreciate is that to ask for more money without producing more is inflationary, and it is generally accepted that inflation is the forerunner of unemployment. It is logical that if you ask for more money without producing more you are pricing yourself out of business. If that were generally understood, then the question whether we should have a formal prices and incomes policy would not be necessary. If we produce more per person, and if we produce more of the right quality from the same plant, our competitiveness is likely to improve. That is the precondition for more sales abroad and for coverage of the home market rather than importing from abroad to cover home requirements.
In coming to the third point—service—I start by saying that I accept the right of everybody to withdraw his or her labour—namely, to strike—but I hasten to add that strikes in whatever form and at whatever place do not help to increase our credibility as reliable suppliers. It is essential from our point of view, if we want to get business, that we improve our credibility just as much as it is necessary to improve our capability to be productive, because when our competitors are producing and using microprocessors and so on we must match their effort and install microprocessors as well, and we must be better at it.
I cannot help but remark that we have plenty of planners, economists and theoreticians of all kinds, but we do little to express our appreciation of the fact that the salesman above all is dealing with people who, metaphorically speaking, are on the other side of the fence. Whether we like it or not, we have to learn that the sales department is an important department—probably the senior service.
Let me now come to strategic selling. We have to use our purchasing power. Some of the raw materials that we need in this country have to be imported. So do finished products and some services. We should make every effort as others do to make these imports with the thought in mind of maximising our exports. Some of the raw materials that we need are imported in ship loads. Let us make sure that some products that we have available go back in the same ships, instead of sending the ships back in ballast. There is a certain port in the North-East of England which serves as an importing point for iron ore. Coal is mined not far from this port. Why is this coal not loaded into the iron ore ships when they go back, instead of sending them back in ballast?
About 200 companies in this country are responsible for two-thirds of our exports. Have we made inquiries of these 200 companies as to what more they need to increase their exports even further? And why do we not encourage other companies to make an effort to be in contact with these exporters, to learn from their experience?
We live in a mixed economy. I am not suggesting
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that Government should be involved in running private industry, but could not Government give more of a helping hand, such as is the case in other countries—France, Japan, and Germany come to my mind—to show goodwill towards industries which want to sell more abroad?
Above all, we must learn as quickly as possible to appreciate that "we" and "they" do not mean the members of management and the members of unions in this country. "We" means us, and "they" are our foreign competitors. In this context, management and unions have from the beginning to be aware of what are the manufacturing targets, and above all, naturally, what the sales plans are. As the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, and other speakers have mentioned, communications within industry are of paramount importance. If management and unions are out of step, we have no credibility and no chance whatsoever to create more wealth.
Let me give an example. We have plenty of coal in this country, though not necessarily easily accessible. We could increase the sale of coal. We could increase the utilisation of coal—and the noble Lord, Lord Benson, with his experience, knows something about this; he was part of a team that looked into the matter—at home and make liquid fuel, though not necessarily immediately. We have liquid fuel in this country to last up until the end of the century. Nevertheless, we could start to think in terms of making liquid fuel, such as is done in South Africa, for example. I am assured that in the National Coal Board we have technologies at least as good as those practised in Sasol, in South Africa.
Having the coal here, we, too, could develop a liquid fuel-producing capacity on the basis of coal as raw material, to meet not only our own requirements, but also those of other countries. The manufacturing facilities needed in this context are very expensive. It would involve a major capital investment. How can one find money for such investment without the knowledge that there is understanding of the importance of co-operation between management and unions in the coal industry?
We here in this place of limited influence, rather than of power, must use our best endeavours to convince the majority of the British people of the urgent necessity for co-operation to acquire a greater share of the world market. Let us forget the party political approach. Let us, for purely selfish reasons, think in national terms to achieve our object; to increase our exports, to regain the share of the world market that we have lost, to satisfy home needs to the best of our ability from our own resources. Incidentally, all that would answer many of the questions that are so much in our minds now in our discussions following the recent Budget.
5.45 p.m.
Lord McAlpine of Moffat: My Lords, I rise with a certain feeling of alarm. Having spent 12 very happy months' sitting here, I have learned a most impressive lesson; namely, that here your Lordships have someone who is very much an amateur about to address an audience of very professional and sophisticated people. Therefore, I crave the indulgence of your Lordships. While as a businessman I appreciate

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the great importance of technology and standards of high nature, I regard them as the handmaidens of management, and to my mind if this country is to survive, the most important thing is to secure good management. Now, what is good management? It is a combination of sound leadership and communication. The communication should be between the very top management and the middle management, because the middle management is the core of the future. They are the people who should regard themselves as being impresarios of talent. When they look around they should be spotting the young men, giving them a chance.
But it is not always easy. In my experience, I have found that if a man is really good at his job, the boss will not promote him because he does not want to lose someone who can do so much good work. At the same time in looking around for talent—sometimes unsuccessfully, perhaps even committing errors of judgment—I have asked, "What do you think of young Bill Smith. Do you think he is a good man?" The manager would say, "Yes, but he has a terrible lot to learn, you know, sir". The answer to that was to wait one's time, put the man in another job, where he had a better chance, and promote him. When the manager said that the young man had a terrible lot to learn, what he really meant was, "That fellow is going to pinch my job unless I am very careful".
We must help the young people who have talent. It is not easy with young people. The problem is how to develop their self-confidence without developing their conceit? There is only one way to do that. That is by taking the risk of giving them rather more responsibility than perhaps one thinks they are capable of. I know that this could cost one money, but it is the right thing to do. If the young people do not succeed, one has to push them away. But one must be ruthless with oneself and give these young people the chance, because Britain has been made by young people. Unless we can encourage our top and middle managements to do that, we shall not succeed. I regard headhunting as a ghastly evil, born of desperation. That remark may be objectionable to some people; I am sorry.
We used to own a marvellous, great empire. We have heard about the winds of change. Industry is in the teeth of a veritable hurricane, but it is striving to succeed. When I was a boy at school the atlas was all coloured pink. Everybody thought British in all the great countries around the globe. Fashion is important in industry. It was fashionable to have everything that was British. Therefore industry just made the things and told the chaps to buy them. It was quite simple.
Today life is different. We have had—not because we wanted to—to substitute the British Empire by the Common Market, and so, my Lords, we have to start all over again and see what we can do. We are dealing with people who know the techniques of the Common Market. I spent a very happy day in Lucerne, with a man called Mr. Shingler. He has an elevator-making business, rather like Otis. He explained to me that they had virtually no home market. Therefore, they sent people all round the world to learn what type of elevator was required, for what type of building.
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Then they made an effort to design elevators to meet what would be the demand in the various countries.
It is no good saying that we must create an immense home market to improve industry; we must go around the world and find out what people want and discover how to make it cheaper than other people can by leadership and by the promotion of the best people.
We must learn decent manners. When our exporters write abroad they write in English; they think everybody in the world should speak English! When the Japanese come to England to buy things we do not speak to them in Japanese and are very surprised if they do not speak good English. We must learn good manners. We are facing change. I believe we can export very well.
I know that your Lordships have had far more than your ration of bad news. The noble Lord, Lord Gregson, was kind enough to mention civil engineering. There is a difference between the professions and I am merely a civil engineering contractor. Recently I had reason to look at some statistics about exports in 1974 by members of the Association of Civil Engineers. In 1974 they were responsible for exports all over the world valued at £1,400 million. In 1938 they were responsible for exports valued at £36,000 million, which I believe I am correct in thinking represents a ninefold growth. They received £500 million in fees and that was an invisible export which nobody really knows very much about. Apart from that, people were sent all over the world and received a salary in local currency. This was probably tax free and they may have saved this money and brought it home with them. Is that not something to be proud of? We do have the technical skills and that is a technical profession. I have mentioned the matter of good manners. I was very fortunate in my Scottish parents, who endeavoured to drill into me that the two most important words in the English language were "Please" and "Thank You", so please give a little attention to what I have said and thank you very much for your kind attention.
The Earl of Bessborough: My Lords, I cannot tell you how happy I am to congratulate my old and noble friend Lord McAlpine on his delightful maiden speech to which we all listened with such attention. His family is so well known and his great firm is well known all over the world. I need only say how warmly we welcome him here and how much we look forward to hearing from him frequently.
I should also like to congratulate my noble friend, Lord Benson, who like me, incidentally, is a West Sussex Peer and is not one of Lord Gowrie's Anglo-Irish team which has ventured to speak rather a lot this afternoon. But he too is so well-known and has such a long entry in Who's Who that we must all know that he will be a very great asset to the Cross-Benches. He made a most impressive speech. Incidentally, I am very happy to find myself sandwiched between two maidens! My noble friend Lord Matthews is another very distinguished industrialist and I think we should congratulate him on deciding to speak today. I hope he will often do so, and I hope also that he may give more frequent mention to our debates in his very important organ. With two such distinguished industrialists, one a distinguished

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civil engineer and the other so prominent a financier and chartered accountant, I feel sure this will result in a great improvement to our economic and industrial debates in your Lordships' House.
Like other noble Lords I should like to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for putting down their Motions on this interesting day, the day after my right honourable friend Sir Geoffrey Howe presented his Budget in another place. I am especially grateful to both noble Lords because this is not the first time we have debated together similar industrial questions, which are closely related to industrial research and development, and science and technology generally. I believe it may have been due largely to the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, that my noble friend Lord Jellicoe suggested that I become chairman of the committee of inquiry into the research associations, and I am very glad to see my deputy chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, here this afternoon and I am pleased he is going to be speaking.
Our committee produced a report on industrial research and development, the success of which must make major contributions to British industry's competitiveness in world markets. I believe we should all welcome the measures announced by my right honourable friend yesterday to help small firms; the reduction in MLR, the reduction in some industrial fuel prices, business start-up schemes and the various incentives to investors. Some people may say that these are small mercies, but I consider them to be a highly significant, even massive, package which should certainly improve our competitiveness and our export potential. However, basically our competitiveness in world markets must depend, as I believe other noble Lords accept, on our inventiveness, on our capacity to originate and innovate, and as the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, said—on our ability to produce new products that people want all over the world. Financial incentives are certainly important and useful, but if we produce certain products, such as textiles and steel, in a quantity greater than people want, financial incentives will not in themselves solve our problems.
That is why, like the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, I am so interested in research and development, whether it be in large or small firms at their own expense, or through the kind of co-operative research which the noble Earl and I know so well, or through Government research establishments, the research councils, the universities, and possibly exploited by the National Research Development Council, of which the noble Lord, Lord Schon, was so noble a head—or even by way of defence research, for I would not minimise the importance of spin-off or fall-out from defence research. We must innovate and we must show ingenuity and imagination in our applied research, not that we should forget fundamental and basic research.
We should take a page out of Japanese enterprise, which puts great store on market research before it is decided to market a product for which they believe—or are virtually certain—there will be world demand.
I am an advocate of conducting applied research on what one might call a pound for pound or £1 for £2 basis, on the principle that the Government might well see fit to contribute when an industry itself is prepared to risk some money. I am also not averse to co-
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operating with our American or Japanese friends; with firms in the United States or in Japan, as well as with firms within the European Community. Indeed, for some 20 years, including those years when we were in opposition and when I was close to my noble Leader in this House, Lord Soames, in the European Parliament, I have pressed for a greater degree of European technological co-operation in various sectors—but particularly in aerospace, micro-electronics, steel and shipbuilding, to name a few. There are many others too. I believe that perhaps the most important of them at this time is robotics.
I was glad to learn from my honourable friend the Minister of State for Industry, Mr. Kenneth Baker, on Monday that current Government support for robotics was running at £1·3 million a year, but I was distressed to hear from certain other Members that this was believed to be considerably less than the sums devoted to this sector by Japan, France and, I think, the United States. As the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, said, it is an interesting fact that in the areas and industries in America where robots are most used the unemployment figures are, paradoxically, the lowest. I think I know the reason for that. The noble Earl did not give one. I shall not do so, either—but I think I know it. This emerged clearly from recent lectures on the subject by Sir Henry Chilver, a great authority on the subject, who is vice-chancellor of the Cranfield College of Engineering and Aeronautics.
Another area which should have a very high priority is very-large-scale integrated circuits. The Japanese are giving £75 million this year to develop very large integrated circuits, getting more components on to one chip. Not only Britain but Western Europe as a whole must make every effort to be competitive with the rest of the world. But, as we said in my report on industrial research some years ago, we must be sure that co-operative research programmes reflect current industrial needs.
I now come briefly to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, on standards. I agree with everything that he said, and I am not going to repeat it. Here again, I should declare a past interest as a former deputy chairman of the Metrication Board, of which the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, was chairman. This was a Quango which, in my view, has now wisely been wound up but which, in its time and under our successors, the noble Baroness, Lady White, and my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing made us conscious of the need, especially for export, to manufacture in metric as well as still sometimes to imperial standards.
Here I would say how impressed were the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, and I by the contributions made by the research associations to industrial standardisation in all its forms, particularly in the preparation of BSI and ISO standards and the increasing involvement, very importantly, in EEC standardisation procedures. It is a remarkable fact, as the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, looks back at that report, that many of the 32 conclusions and recommendations that we made are still relevant today. I should like to join in the tributes paid to Sir Fred Warner and his report. But, to return to my main theme, I believe we must develop creative industry based on new ideas, new designs and a real

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understanding of markets. In the past our attempts at high technology often proved abortive simply because we did not combine marketing skills with technical ones as well as cost-effectiveness. It makes no sense to manufacture goods here which have little or no skill content and which equally well may be made more cheaply elsewhere.
I should like to comment here at the end of my remarks on two or three smaller firms in which I have no personal interest, financial or otherwise, but which have been very successful indeed and which may have lessons for others. I mention their names because I think they deserve mention. The first is a firm called Netlon of Blackburn. Doctor Mercer, the company's chairman, inherited a textile works. The company was very weak and he decided that there was no future in cotton. He eventually designed a method for making net by plastic extrusion. Your Lordships may have seen the net for packaging oranges in supermarkets, but it has many other extremely interesting and important applications in the world.
Dr. Mercer was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society for his innovation. Then he concentrated on marketing the product, and the Blackburn company gradually increased in size; but he was unable to develop the idea world-wide on his own. Instead, he followed a policy of licensing, and Netlon is now made under licence in 26 different countries and its worldwide revenue is between £130 million and £150 million. An interesting thing about Netlon is that it is now struggling to introduce a new product called Tensar, which consists of a mesh of high-tensile plastic which can be used as a reinforcing material. It can be used as a wind break, as snow fencing and for retaining embankments; and, through an improved version which has high strength biaxially, I think they are going to produce a useful invention.
The research cost more than £3 million, of which the Government contributed £780,000 through the relevant requirement board. The market for Tensar is believed to be larger than for Netlon. It could be used as a reinforcement for soil, concrete, asphalt and plastics. The noble Lord, Lord McAlpine, probably knows about this. An enormous application is for constructing asphalt roads to overcome rutting and cracking caused by heavy vehicles. Four of the seven big American petrochemical companies want to be involved; but Dr. Mercer does not want to give away any part of the equity. There is a problem. I know several Middle Eastern countries which are interested for their big desert civil engineering projects. I hope it will be possible to get this product off the ground, hopefully as a purely British development—the equivalent, perhaps, of float glass in the 1950s.
A second firm is Dolby Laboratories. This firm was started by Dr. Ray Dolby, one of the original inventors of Ampex Videotape. He came to Britain to do a doctorate at Cambridge University and thought out the idea for reducing the hissing noise from tape recorders. He patented it, and his company, in Clapham Road, managed to get its standard accepted throughout the world and almost every hi-fi set made (including all major Japanese sets) uses the Dolby system. The company employs about 200 people and has a turnover of £7 million to £8 million 15 years
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after the original invention. It does other things, too, and its success is one which other companies could emulate. The sad thing is that Dolby decided in 1975 to leave Britain and go to the United States. His research laboratory and the North American marketing operation now work from San Francisco, although manufacturing and world-wide marketing are still here in Clapham Road. Dolby felt, among other things, that the industrial climate in Britain at that time was not conducive to enterprise.
A third firm I would mention is Micro Consultants and its offshoot, Quantel Limited of Newbury. Micro Consultants was set up in 1967 to make scientific and industrial data systems, and has reinstrumented, among other things, the Trawsfynnyd nuclear power station. In 1973 the men who started the business set up a new company, Quantel, which exploited the developments of Micro Consultants and applied them to television broadcasting. Quantel make machines which digitise television signals and which can store a complete frame or picture in a computer-type memory.
Using this technology, it is possible to build television converters which lose no quality and they have been sold all over the world. All three big American television networks use them. There is much more that I could say about this firm but my time has run out. These firms have won recognition all over the world and this I believe is hopeful.
The conclusions that I draw are: first, where low grade or high volume manufacturing is required, it pays to licence other people to do it. Secondly, clever ideas sell well and enable companies to go ahead fast, provided that there is a market. Clever things which nobody wants must fail. Thirdly, it is easier to become established in narrow fields such as I have mentioned—for example, in tape noise reduction or television—than in less readily definable markets. All three firms that I have mentioned exploited a particular technical skill and found ways of extending it through new applications to build a larger company.
How do we get bright young people in this country who know both the technical and market problems to consider launching their own company? Bodies like the NRDC—and I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Schon, is still in his place—may be too demanding in their insistence on equity; so perhaps may the TDC, ICFC and indeed the merchant banks. It would be better, in my view, to find a way of financing new young firms through private sources. That means making it attractive for people to gamble on them. After all, as several noble Lords here know, we do not penalise people for gambling on horses or on football teams. Yet in the past we have punished them through exorbitant taxation. We have sometimes penalised someone who backs a British idea and comes up trumps. If we could get the gambling framework right so as to encourage the entrepreneur, the whole aspect of British industry could change. I am off to Silicon Valley at the end of the month and I shall see there how different the atmosphere is; and yet we in Britain can be competitive, too.
6.13 p.m.
Lord Matthews: My Lords, may I thank my noble friends Lord Gowrie and Lord Bessborough for their

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kind and friendly comments. I cannot promise further coverage in my newspapers; but I suspect that my editors will be watching the House of Lords more closely if I am here.
I should like to begin with a quotation from 1933 of the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, Neville Chamberlain, as we began to recover from the recession in the early 1930s.
"Our credit has been fully restored. We are almost embarrassed by the amount of money coming to London. From having slipped to the position of third exporting country of the world we have once again regained our position as the best",
I am sure we would all have been cheered had our present Chancellor of the Exchequer been able to make a similar statement yesterday. Instead, we are faced with declining manufacturing industries and the disappearance of companies with household names, and high unemployment still rising.
I recognise that it is not only in this country that this position prevails. The whole of the Western World, with few exceptions, is going through an extremely difficult period. However, unfortunately this country is suffering to a far greater extent than the majority of the others, with inflation at over 20 per cent. in 1980 compared with an average of 10 per cent. for our major competitors; and, but for the good fortune to be blessed with oil around these shores, I dread to think what state we would be in today.
The decline in our manufacturing industries has not been brought about by the recent so-called monetarist policy. It has, of course, been going on for some considerable time and a straight comparison between Western Germany and ourselves—a country of similar size and population—over the past 20 years shows that they have increased their production at a rate of 50 per cent. greater than ours—3·3 per cent. per annum against our 2·1 per cent. During the same period, German car production, for example, has doubled from 1,752,000 cars to 3,669,000 cars. Our production has fallen below what it was 20 years ago. Our output is now less than 1 million cars per annum.
Do the Germans work longer hours to have produced this miracle? The answer is "no"—in fact they work an average of 41·8 hours per week against our 43·2, including overtime. But clearly they work more efficiently than we do, so what do the Germans have that we do not? I suggest sound rational trade union practices which, with strong, responsible management, give them four prime virtues of commerce; namely, productivity, price competitiveness, delivery on time and effective after-sales service.
The Germans have a trade union structure (which your Lordships will recall we helped to form) of one union to each industry which reflects the realities of the last half of the 20th century. We have a trade union structure which reflects the multifarious crafts of the past century, compounded by the class war and political expediency. It is an insuperable handicap and it has been entirely self-imposed.
It is a fantasy for me to suggest that we could look forward to a change in our trade unions to reflect one union for one industry. However, I believe that our trade unions will eventually have to make some radical changes in their structure whereby individual unions identify themselves with a particular industry and accept the use of high technology with reasonable
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manning levels. I have an example in my own company's works where new equipment has lain idle for over 12 months—not because there is a dispute on manning levels, but because two unions cannot meet to agree which one of them is going to be responsible for the operatives using this equipment.
In a changing world the competition has become even more competitive with a number of new nations emerging with their own highly mechanised industries, sometimes designed and installed by us, and were demarcation is an unknown word. Every opportunity to use higher technology is taken by them, and every day it becomes more difficult for us to compete. Obviously, the more competitive the markets, the more you cut your prices, my Lords, and the more difficult it becomes to maintain standards. It is sad to see that a number of British companies with household names, who had built up their reputation on the quality of their own goods manufactured in this country, have over recent years been marketing imported products.
It is a soft option to become a service nation and I believe that would only last as long as the oil flows; and, of course, unemployment would continue to increase. So, therefore, we have to change our ways. We have been tasting the cream and it has now gone sour. Our present plight has been contributed to by the varying policies of successive Governments with wage restraints, excessively high taxation and inflation which has destroyed enthusiasm and incentive.
I believe that the British working man is equal to his counterparts anywhere in the world and is better than most, given the right environment and the right incentives. I feel that it is in this field that we need to concentrate our minds and have a much more imaginative approach to encourage workers, management and investors. Perhaps the Chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Howe, in yesterday's Budget, gave just a chink of light in this direction with his further help to the small businessman. As he indicated, we are coming to the bottom of the trough of the recession. It is essential, if that is so and the situation improves, that he should extend his help to industry generously so as to create the atmosphere and the incentives to go forward and be competitive once again.
6.21 p.m.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Matthews, who has acquitted himself well in that very trying ordeal we have all been through at one time or other, the making of a maiden speech. Such a speech is supposed to be non-controversial. So far as I am concerned, this speech conformed to the model and I agreed with everything that he said. Under the classical categories of modesty, wisdom and wit, he has won his spurs, and I am sure I will be voicing the good wishes of your Lordships if I say that we shall look forward to hearing him again on many occasions in the future.
On the two Motions before us, I am going to speak only very briefly on that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, to comment on his reference to standardisation by metrication and decimalisation, with both of which I have had a great deal to do in the course of my life. They both involve aligning the measures we use with the language we talk, of which the arithmetic we do is part, and any other system of

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measurement is really quite ridiculous. I was a director of a heavy engineering company in the days when we had to quote for a very large European contract in metric. That occupied so much of the time of the drawing office that we said, "Why take two bites at the cherry? We have most of the drawing office working in metric on one contract; let us metricate 100 per cent. from now on". That cost us a fraction of 1 per cent. of one year's profit, and the job was finished, over the horizon, and we could look forward to the future and never bother about it again.
On the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Shannon, I should like to resume the arguments I was putting forward on the Motion of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition last week with regard to the redeployment of labour, and deal first of all with a throw-away line by the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, who simply said that unemployment had been rising inexorably under all parties and under all Prime Ministers for 20 years. The noble Lord did not expand on that; he dealt with it in a sentence. I must, however, say a little more about this because, although it is perfectly true in the form in which he said it, it did not disclose that there were in fact three régimes during that period. There was the tail-end of the post-war demand-pull period, with unemployment running at about a quarter of a million, which terminated at the end of the first Wilson Government. There was then a period of about eight years which terminated with the end of the Heath Government, during which unemploymentwas steady at a figure of about half a million. There were two excursions into the three-quarters of a million range in 1971 and 1972, but there was reversion to normal again in 1973–74. I think these were connected with the U-turn of the Heath Government during that period.
From 1975 onwards inflation took off, and we have been running now for years past at 1½ million unemployed, which has increased significantly in the course of the last 12 months. I want to relate that to what I said last week about the natural, painless, redeployment factor that exists in the economy due to the fact that a professional career time is about 40 years and a non-professional career time a little longer. That gives a retirement recruitment redeployment potential of 2½ per cent.; that is, 25 per cent., a quarter of your labour-force per decade and half your labour-force in two decades. Against that, as a target, I want to look at what we have done in the last two decades; that is, 1960–1970 and 1970–1980. In the first of those periods we reduced our manufacturing employment from 16 million to 13 million and we increased our service industry employment from 6 million to 9 million. That was an effective redeployment of 3 million on a labour-force of about 22 to 24 million over the period; and that was within the 2½ per cent. redeployment factor to which I have referred. But that was all we did during the first decade.
During the second decade the figures have been steady. We are still employing about 13 million in the manufacturing industries and about 9 million in the service industries. In my view, had we gone on with the redeployment we would not now have had over-manned manufacturing industries and we would not be short, as we so often are, of personnel in the service industries.
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Let me take the National Health Service as an example. They are short of people and the people are short of money. I sorted the whole thing out, working for Mrs. Castle under the Wilson Government in 1974–75, and left the Health Service with a rational structure covering everything from doctors, nurses and midwives to the 10 paramedical professions and the speech therapists—and everybody was content at that point. It has subsequently gone back, as I predicted that it would, and it is still short-staffed and complains that it is under-paid.
Many people feel it is wrong to transfer people from manufacturing industry into the service industries, but I do not believe that. I think it is the right thing to do; and we have to keep up the productivity of the manufacturing industries. Supposing that it takes three men to do what four men did physically but they produce twice as much, then everybody is twice as well off notwithstanding the fact that you have three men in productive industry and one has been transferred to a service industry. That is an example of what we did during the 1960–70 decade, when we had low unemployment, and it is what we did not do during the 1970–80 decade, when we had increasing and higher unemployment.
I come next to foresight, commercial and technological. Here one must learn to recognise certain patterns which repeat themselves. I should like to refer very briefly to the textile industry. You start off by exporting cheap cotton cloth to the Chinese and the Indians. That game is too easy to last for ever; it does not last. You then have two options. One is to increase the quality of what you are making and go into the high-quality textile industry, which the Italians have done so successfully. The other is to export not textiles but textile manufacturing machinery. We had quite a significant success in that because at one time after the war our exports of textile machinery from Lancashire were in excess of our exports of textiles. But that again will not last for ever. The third stage will be to manufacture the control engineering equipment that automates the textile machinery. And during all this process of transferring the product, as it were, across the technological board, the conversion factor of what you are making is rising, rising, rising the whole time, and it is therefore becoming a more profitable source of exports in the balance of trade.
Two headings under which the Japanese have taken the lead strike me very forcibly. Perhaps I might say at this point that in the early 1960s I headed an OECD mission to Japan to write a report on the relations between industry, government and the universities in Japan; and I came back convinced that within a decade the Japanese would be the world's No. 2 economy. That prophecy was fulfilled, and now they have become not only No.2 economy but the No. 1 pacemaker.
There were two pieces of foresight that the Japanese scored heavily with. One was the giant tanker, and I want your Lordships to note that there was no high technology involved in giant tankers. There was nothing more than the commercial courage to go ahead and build them when the Suez Canal was closed. Anybody could have done it. The Japanese were the ones with foresight and the commercial nous to go ahead and do it—to build the first tanker, to fill it up with oil, to send it around the world demonstrating

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its economics to everybody. From that point on, the Japanese tanker industry just took off and they went on building bigger and bigger tankers in the most modern, up-to-date shipyards, but beyond being modern and up-to-date there was nothing new or original about them.
The other way in which the Japanese have shown commercial and technological foresight is in backing robotics. I have been a prophet of robotics for I do not know how long, because I believe that they are the real answer to the monotony and fatigue which a workforce suffers when it is on the assembly line. The robot is the answer to the assembly line. But unless you are continually transferring people out of manufacturing industry into the service industries, you will, of course, then get unemployment on the assembly lines when you introduce your robotics. However, I do not believe that anybody ever withstood for any length of time the desire to take advantage of technological opportunities to improve his standard of living, and I think that if organised labour withstands the introduction of robotics it will be backing a losing horse, because people will adopt them and the high standard of living that that implies.
I come now to the next phase of what I believe for the future. In the beginning, there was just shank's pony, and then in 3,000 B.C. we domesticated the horse. From that time to the middle of the last century that is all we had in the way of transport facilities. Then, in the middle of the last century, the railways gave man social mobility, and the bicycle, followed by the motor car in this century, gave him personal mobility. That personal mobility is of tremendous importance to people and that is why the family car is one of the main features of family life.
I am going to peep into the future, to where man achieves intellectual mobility; the ability to move about in the realm of ideas and thoughts, of which you can see a forecast in the form of the toys which we have in the Library—Prestel, the link to STAIRS in the Queen's Room and the other machine that they have. I have forgotten its name for the moment, but I shall think of it. We now have three of these toys to play with at this stage. And, of course, at home we have our television sets, our radios and so on. But I look forward to the day, 30 or 50 years from now, when the family cathode ray tube will be as important in the family drawing-room as the family motor car now is in the family garage. Just as a house has a garage in-built, so we shall have something like that with a data processing system in every household. It will be part of the children's education. It will be your morning newspaper. I am sorry if I am destroying the industry which is so ably represented in your Lordships' House by the noble Lord, Lord Matthews. But it will be your daily newspaper. It will be your workbench, because I foresee that most of the administrative classes will work at home. Why do we pack them into enormous buildings built by the noble Lord, Lord McAlpine? Simply so that they can be near to the files in which the information that they use is stored. If they can bring this information into their own homes by keying in and pressing buttons, they can do their work in the home. Think, my Lords, of the relief that that will be to the transport industries, when there are no more commuters—
Lord Stone: My Lords, what would you do in your spare time?
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, that is the real problem in all this. How are you to keep a workforce of 25 million, or thereabouts, out of mischief, happy and occupied with something or other when, literally, there is no manual work required for them to do?
May I remind your Lordships of the etymology of the word "labour", because once labour has gone I do not see what we are going to need a Labour Party for. The word means "torment". That is why we talk of a woman in childbirth as being in labour. It is the word that the Latins used for torture. If we turn to the French languages, we talk of travail. Travalla, in Latin, was the rack. That is what labour used to be in the pro-history of humanity. But a draftsman does not need to be in a drawing office. Give him a cathode ray tube and a light pen and he can work at home.
How people will use their leisure profitably, I do not know. Possibly, they will become carpenters and make tasty furniture for people who like that kind of thing, in consideration for the people who like tasty furniture doing some service or other for them. But I shall not peep too deeply into the future, save to ask: what will happen to the transport workers, what will happen to the print industry, when all this comes true? They will have to join my redeployment and the painless mechanism I have indicated—the ranks of the others.
The same will be true of the microprocessor revolution as was true of the computer revolution. I have been in the computer revolution from the days before there were any computers. I literally saw the first computer come off the first manufacturing line and I have been associated with it in the 30 years that have followed. It is easy to say that it made a revolution. It did not. It was a steady progression. Always there is a bottle-neck. The bottle-neck was never our ability to make computers. It was always our ability to decide what we were going to use them for. Even when we decided that, we found that we had to train a whole new generation of schoolmasters, university lecturers and so on to teach people how, and the same will be true of the microprocessor.
Currently, you can buy one, if you are so minded and have the money, to play chess with. Children's toys and so on are great fun, experimenting with rockets to the moon via a little keyboard or doing sums. That will not be the real, ultimate application for them. They will have a deeper application and it will not be revolutionary on a short timescale. I believe that in the future the microprocessor will give our descendants a fuller life and that they will see it as a revolution only in retrospect. Improved productivity means enhanced emancipation from that terrible thing—labour. Let us take no counsel of our fears, but press on with it. Our danger is not that it will move too fast, but that we shall move too slowly.
6.38 p.m.
Lord Irving of Dartford: My Lords, I want to deal with matters relating to competitiveness which are of the greatest importance and urgency for industry, and I hope the House will forgive me if I concentrate on the energy problem. In July last year on the Gas

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Corporation Bill, I raised the question of the very large differential between gas prices charged to British industrialists as against those charged to their competitors in Europe and North America. I then mentioned three industries which were suffering very severely—the paper industry, with which I am happy to be associated; the chemical industry, and the clay-using industries. I indicated then that gas to industry on the continent was 30 to 50 per cent. cheaper than in the United Kingdom, and 50 per cent. cheaper in North America. The noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, disputed those figures and said that there was not that disadvantage; or, at least, he said that if it existed it was a short-term problem. But he undertook to monitor gas and other energy prices.
Between then and the end of the year, the department and the CBI carried out a monitoring exercise. In the debate on energy in October, I catalogued nearly 20 industries which were suffering from the same kind of problem in relation to the cost of gas and other forms of energy, and to which energy represented, as it did to the paper industry, something like 10 or 15 per cent. of total cost. Later I expressed some concern that these two exercises were being undertaken separately, because I believed that they would not necessarily lead to agreement, and in this respect I was correct. The exercise proved abortive, and a further period of delay resulted. As a result of this, however, a task force was set up under the chairmanship of the director-general of Neddy which reported to the Minister on 5th March confirming entirely what industrialists had been saying for the last 12 months about the cost of gas as well as other forms of energy to high energy users.
I want to stress that British industrialists have not been asking for cheap energy or for preferential treatment but that they should be allowed to compete on equal terms with their foreign competitors. May I remind the House of what the task force said:
"For an important group of energy intensive users, (representing some of the remaining 50 per cent. of industrial electricity and a significant proportion of gas by volume) United Kingdom gas and electricity prices had moved significantly ahead of those being charged to some major competitors on the Continent by the end of 1980. This situation continues. Heavy fuel oil was cheaper to Continental competitors for most of 1980, though the position had improved by the end of the year but remains volatile".
This is the most significant part of the report:
"These developments have worsened the competitive position of this group of users".
In the case of gas, the differences in cost of interruptable supplies were up to 15 per cent. and in firm supplies up to 20 per cent. In the case of electricity, in France and Germany the differential was as high, in some cases, as 35 per cent. I ought to mention that in the paper industry there are 26 companies which use more than 1 million therms of gas a year. In general terms, the economic climate, compounded by the Government's policies, continues to give to United Kingdom competitors a 25 per cent, price advantage. This is caused particularly by the linked problems of the high value of the pound, high inflation and high interest rates, together with the price of energy to which I have referred.
During the last 14 months I regret to say that in
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the paper industry they have lost 17 mills, 46 machines and 9,487 employees. In the last 12 to 18 months the volume of newsprint made in this country, which was 25 per cent. of the total requirement, has fallen to below 10 per cent. and at this rate will disappear entirely.
Therefore it is in this gloomy context that yesterday's Budget must be viewed. I think the statement made by the Director General of the British Paper and Board Federation echoed that of many industries when he said:
"The Budget was a bitter disappointment. All that we have been asking for is an opportunity to compete on equal terms with paper makers overseas".
What was asked for by industry was that the special tax on heavy fuel oil should be abolished. All that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to offer were some unspecified concessions on high volume tariffs. Secondly, he was asked that the duty on Derv should be reduced by anything up to 10p. In fact, it has been increased by 20p a gallon, which is a very severe blow to this industry and to others. This additional expenditure will cost the paper industry, in the case of one group alone, £0·4 million, and it will cost the total industry something like £2 million to £3 million. Transport costs can be between 5 per cent. and 10 per cent. of total costs. That is in addition to the other problems of energy in any industry. This blow could offset any relief, if this is really forthcoming, on high volume energy tariffs.
I said "unspecified concessions" because it is difficult to know what the Chancellor really meant in his pronouncement yesterday, for the British Gas Corporation has been negotiating with some industrialists for new contracts taking into account, as requested by the Government, the difficulties facing industrialists. However, these are for new contracts, not necessarily for renewable contracts. It is also a slow and tedious process which will come too late for many companies. The Chancellor's promise that the British Gas Corporation will hold its prices until the end of 1981 will do little or nothing to deal with the problems of differentials between the United Kingdom and Europe and America.
There was a phrase in the Chancellor's speech yesterday which I will read:
"The overall consequences of dealing with energy prices would be to put up the cost of gas purchased by the British Gas Corporation and, with it, the United Kingdom import bill".
Many of us are unclear of the precise significance of that statement, and I hope that the noble Earl will be able to clarify it.
Industry is grateful for the fall of 2 per cent. in the MLR. It will certainly lower the cost of overdrafts, but because of the poor prospects and low profitability of many industries it will do little, in my view, to encourage investment. It looks like having little or no effect on the value of the pound; as it was so confidently anticipated and leaked, the effect has already been discounted and lost.
I should like to end by repeating, even at this late stage, what the paper industry and others asked of the Chancellor. They asked first that there should be a freeze on all energy prices for energy intensive industries until those of our European and American competitors have caught up. Secondly, they asked

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that the Chancellor should give an immediate rebate to energy intensive industries to offset higher United Kingdom energy prices so that in the short term energy costs are no higher than in European countries. Time is running out for many companies. I hope that the Government will act soon.
6.47 p.m.
Lord Energlyn: My Lords, I am so pleased that the noble Lord, Lord McAlpine of Moffat, referred to the invisible earnings of our professionals. We do not know the exact figure but I gather that there is a minimum of £2,000 million of foreign currency coming into this country. One might naively say that as a result of this expertise being sold on a contractual basis, British industry should have a spin-off into the hardware involved in the contracts. But it does not work like that. The reason why our consultancy practices are among the foremost in the world is because we are British. It is the integrity, honesty and clarity of the advice that is given to a client which has caused this vast and important income for Britain. But it is left to the client to buy the goods. If British industry is not producing the right goods, then it cannot expect to break into the markets created by our consultancy practices.
Having said that, no mention—I have listened to every speaker—has been made of the contribution of our nationalised industries to this income. The Electricity Council has a company selling expertise. It might be chastening for the noble Lord, Lord Irving of Dartford, to know that the Gas Council has an international consultancy service which,
"in 1970–71 when it was formed earned £108,222 in fees. By 1974 that had risen to £3 million, plus. In 1976, it was nearly £7 million, and ever since it has kept above the £3 million mark".
That is a contribution which has been made by the know-how of the Gas Council's research organisations to the productivity of this country. I shall refer to the spin-off from that a little later.
I want to take up now the point which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Schon. He could not understand why a ship bearing iron ore to the North of England could not export coal from England. It is claimed that because we have been importing coal we have no place in the export markets of the world for coal. In the 1930s, however, we were the number one exporter of coal. I want to take up that claim.
Before I continue I should like to make it perfectly clear that what I am about to say is in no way a criticism of the National Coal Board. Even more important than that, it is in no way an indication of a view that the Government may have been wrong in investing in the coal industry. On the contrary, this investment of the Government in the coal industry will, in my humble opinion—and I hope to prove it to your Lordships in a moment—be one of the most prudent and lucrative investments that they have made. In other words, what I am going to try to do, with your Lordships' permission, is to look at this statement that we have no place in the export markets of the world.
If you look at figures, you are always running into difficulties, but recently—in fact in 1980—the Massachusetts Institute of Technology called a world conference under the title "Coal—A Bridge into the
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Future", and any figures that I use are derived from this quite remarkable report, a copy of which is deposited in your Lordships' Library. It says that the 1977 production of coal in the United Kingdom was 108 million tonnes and that in the year 2,000 it will be about 162 million tonnes. Then, looking at the world market, there is a world production of 2,450 million tonnes in 1977, which is expected to rise to 6,780 million tonnes.
The question I pose is this: Is there no room for us in a vast market for coal? Most of that coal is consumed in the countries of its origin, but there is nevertheless an export of coal and the figures given show that there is an export into Europe of 287 million tonnes. That is the figure that I should like your Lordships to remember because, in my opinion, that is the market on our doorstep.
Before you can enter any market, as has been said by many noble Lords, you have to have the right quality. Now there is coal and coal or—to put it in another way—coal is composed of a number of different ingredients. I am not going to embark upon a petrographic lecture on coal, but it may interest your Lordships to know that all over the world when technologists are talking about coal they use what is called the Stopes classification. This classification was done by none other than Marie Stopes at the beginning of this century. She was the first woman paleobotanist and she brought a typically feminine rationale into looking at coal. It is most important to grasp this because what she said was that coal is a bed of rock. A bed of rock is composed of minerals and, likewise, coal is composed of minerals. She pointed out that it is composed principally of four minerals: vitrain, the bright glassy one; clarain, the dull one; durain, the hard one and fusain, the dirty one.
If we take fusain, that is virtually fossil charcoal. On the world market, fusain fetches anything over £200 a tonne and that is the stuff that they pour out of the washeries when they are washing coal at the present time. So there is a market. When you come to look at South Africa, as has been mentioned, they make petroleum out of coal, and the principal reason for that is that their seams, and one in particular, are almost completely composed of vitrain—the glassy one. It is quite easy to convert vitrain into a petroleum-like product but what jiggers it up is the presence of the other minerals, durain, in particular, and fusain.
We should therefore look at the mental process of an oilman. When he finds an oilfield, the next thing he thinks about is, "Where am I going to put the refinery?" To get into the world markets we have got to put refineries at our collieries. There is nothing new in this because among the first chairmen of the National Coal Board was Sir Hubert Holdsworth, who was a distinguished scientist, and his right-hand man was Dr. Idris Jones, the late lamented brother of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones. In 1951 Idris Jones and Holdsworth evaluated the whole system of coal processing and all the R and D has been done. You may ask, why has the Coal Board not used it? There was no market for it. The market has only arisen in the last four or five years and I maintain that we should move into that market.
The noble Lord, Lord McAlpine of Moffat, mentioned simplicity and, when I am called in to advise

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anybody, I say to them, "Let me have a look at your chemistry or your physics or your engineering. Ah yes! Now, the moment you go above O-level chemistry or O-level physics or O-level engineering you are going to increase your overheads, and your profit margins will be reduced. Therefore you must look at the simplicity of the operation". It is a curious thing, but very often the simplest things do not occur to one. If we think back over 10 years, the idea of containerising cargoes was just an idea, but today it is standard practice. If you think of what happens to the local dump of coal and the local coal man, he puts it into sacks and he delivers the coal in sacks. The reason is quite simple: first, he knows how much coal he is selling and, secondly, he does not waste any on the way.
Taking that simple prospect, I am going to put the idea to you, my Lords, that we now start to containerise coal and see what effect that has on our commercial potential. The first thing to realise is that the coal of the future is not lump coal; the coal of the future is powdered coal—what we call pulverised fuel. It burns better than lump coal and it has been proved for 50 years that it is the best type of coal to use on a furnace. So, we powder coal, and, if we powder coal, we now have the modern surface active agents that can divide these particles of coal into vitrain, clarain, durain and fusain, and all these four commodities have a different commercial value. So you bleed off your vitrain and send that to the chemical industry as a feed stock. You bleed off your fusain and you sell that as a sophisticated chemical in a variety of industries. What is left is the sort of fuel that burns quite as well as the gross coal in a power station.
The next step is to put it into bags, not load it into a truck which has to be emptied into a dump and then the dump has to be dug by a digger and the coal put into a conveyer to be taken into the power station. Worse than that, when you take it to your exporting port, you have a dump of coal which has to be fed into the hold of a ship. That ship then has to carry the coal to its destination, and there were absolutely fascinating figures given in the symposium on the cost of ship off-loading, unloading and trans-shipment, because many harbours are incapable of taking large vessels. Now, if you put this coal into bags and then you go to the firm of my noble friend Lord Bess-borough and put the bags into his nets, you can load them down into the hold and pick them out of the hold when you reach your destination.
The Earl of Bessborough: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? It is not Lord Bess-borough's firm: he has no interest in them whatever, except for their great technological achievements.
Lord Energlyn: My Lords, I do apologise to my noble friend. As he knows, I sometimes get carried away. What I really meant to say was the company he referred to in such an effective way. These people have produced plastic nets with great bearing capacity. I think the noble Earl would agree with that. They can carry phenomenal weights of material. You can see these lowered into a ship, into a clean hold that you are going to empty when you get to the other side. So imagine a ship like that, leaving England,
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going to New Zealand and bringing back the return cargo. The operation then becomes economic, as your Lordships will see if you study the figures the conference has produced.
Next, I should like to narrow this down to give your Lordships some examples of what we might do wtih our neighbours, our so-called European friends. The market in Europe is something like 37 million tonnes. That is well within our capacity to produce without any embarrassment to the demands of Great Britain. Just take one or two cases. Suppose we look at Finland. Finland imports 4·1 million tonnes. When you look at the balance of trade between Finland and Britain, we buy more from Finland in the way of timber and what-not than they buy from us. Why, therefore, should they not buy our coal in exchange for their timber? There is one good customer. Then, take our friends across the Channel in France. They need 14 million tonnes of coal. Why not buy it from us? Containerised, you put it in barges, you lift it out of the barge so easily; you have not got the difficult task of loading and unloading. The odd thing is that I questioned people who were at the conference and it has never occured to them to containerise coal. So I ask the Government quite seriously to look at this potential.
Then I come to the other feature of coal which is uppermost in a lot of people's minds, and that is the mobility of coal. We are talking about fluidised beds. Let it be to the credit of the National Coal Board, and particularly of people like the late Dr. Idris Jones, that they were writing papers about fluidised beds in the early 1950s and 1960s. So all the knowledge and technology is in this country. I do not think that there is anybody in the world who knows as much about coal, thanks to Marie Stopes, as we do. What we have to do is to know how to market it. In order to market it, we have got to refine it.
Then we come to another factor and it is this: in South Wales, there was a Canadian who some 15 or more years ago started to wash coal out of coal tips which the National Coal Board did not want to be bothered with. Within four or five years the firm was in the top league and was making millions of pounds profit out of washing coal out of tips. It has now become a realistic thing to look at all the coal tips of Britain. If you make a quick calculation, we are talking about 500 million tonnes of coal in coal tips and it is far easier to win that coal than even to work it by opencast mining. I suggest quite seriously that we have here a potential source of small coal, which is the most desirable coal today, although not in the past.
Then, you ask what you are going to do with the mud. You can pour it back into those derelict workings from whence it came. Certain of the tips have a peculiar property, in that they can be converted into cement. So I can visualise washing the coal out of tips and I reckon, taking the Ryan experiment in South Wales, we could have something like 4 to 5 million tonnes of coal coming out of those tips over the next 10 years—cheap coal which we could use, releasing coal for export. You pour the mud back into the ground. You cannot do that when a mine is being worked, because there are grave difficulties over ventilation, production of methane, explosions and so on. But, when a pit is empty, you can put the mud

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underground. Again, you put it into bags and take it underground, and in bags you can stack it tight and it will remain there undisturbed for ever.
What I am really trying to say is this: in my humble opinion, I believe we have a place in the export markets of the world, if we now use our imagination, thrust out and enter those markets. In so doing, we shall revive our maritime trade, because I hope that those ships will go out full of my bags and return clean with a cargo of cheap produce.
7.8 p.m.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, but I hope that on this occasion he will perhaps forgive me if I do not directly follow him except to welcome his closing remarks about the restoration of our supremacy in maritime trade. I would indeed dearly love to see that, quite apart from being intrigued by his general remarks about the possibilities of coal. Our other scientific contribution came from the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury. I thought his best contribution, in a splendid glimpse of the future, was to instruct us that we are opposite the torment party. I am not sure that I would not have thought it was the party of torment, even if, in a sort of a way, it has the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, supporting it, too.
Lord Gregson: My Lords, it is good for the soul.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, I think we must thank the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, very much for inspiring us to this debate. He certainly has attracted a splendid list of speakers, particularly three maiden speakers. One would not wish to be discriminatory among them; one must congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Benson, the noble Lord, Lord McAlpine, and the noble Lord, Lord Matthews. I do not see any of them at the moment, but that spares me the embarrassment of trying to say which I thought was the best.
My Lords, I will unashamedly be guided in what I have to say by the recently-produced medium-term strategy (I think they call it) of the CBI, entitled The Will to Win. I noted that the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, referred as his additional point to the will to be competitive. I suspect he might have seen The Will to Win and translated it in that sense to meet the title of this debate. I would certainly very much support the two points. The CBI says we must satisfy the customer and we must be competitive, and many noble Lords have spoken about that. I would suggest to your Lordships that when we indeed do both those things we are among the world's leaders in both production and export. I think it is that which is the key to the problem.
The CBI goes on to say that we must restore competitiveness by cutting costs, by improving efficiency and industrial relations and—and here the Government can help—by improving the framework in which business operates. In this outline paper the CBI is seeking to show industry the sort of contributions which businesses can make to help themselves improve competitiveness. It also suggests what contributions the Government and government departments can make. I propose to concentrate on the latter point. Apart
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from the fact that several noble Lords have mentioned various aspects of what industry can do, I think the problem which faces us is not so much what industry can do and what Government can do, but how the two can blend together.
I take very much the various points that my noble friend the Minister made, and particularly that the appallingly difficult present circumstances are very restrictive as regards the Government's freedom to do all that they would like to do as their share towards improving the position for the competitiveness of industry. However, I think that whatever the Government do there is great difficulty in getting the matching, as it were, between the needs and the demands of industry and the functioning of the vast bureaucratic machine which is there to aid the Government in their activities. I think there is a great lack of knowledge when people do not have industrial experience from which to make the decisions and give the advice which is necessary.
The CBI's paper makes the point that Government departments do not have the discipline of the market to encourage economy and the elimination of waste. Nor, I would suggest, do they have the experience of the discipline of the market to know really what it is that it is reasonable for industry to want and where they can best help it. Perhaps I might suggest to my noble friend the Minister that that is the area where Ministers must be the solvers of the key problem.
Therefore, I believe that the Government's problems are even greater than the problems of industry. Nevertheless, they must be ruthless in attacking waste and overmanning; they must reduce the costs that they impose on business; and they must have cost control targets equal to those of industry. Specific contributions which the Government can make to competitiveness are to avoid policies creating additional costs; to have a realistic exchange rate and that point has been touched on by other noble Lords—and to have supportive trade policies. I like the thought of that, but I wonder just what it means.
I should like to turn to costs through taxation. We all expect costs through taxation, but I would suggest to my noble friend that they must be fair if industries are to be competitive. That applies as much on the home market as it does to exports. If companies in an industry do not have a fair competitive position at home, they will have less of a firm base from which to develop production for export.
In the food processing industry, in which I must declare an interest, there are no better examples than biscuits and confectionery. Those food products have long been leaders in the European Community, both in overall production and in export. Because of arbitrary and anti-competitive taxation policies on selected foods (which include all chocolates and chocolate-covered products) from which our main competitors are spared—and I would emphasise the words, "from which our main competitors are spared"—our competitors are beginning to show signs of overtaking us, especially in the chocolate confectionery market. I would mention in passing that Germany, which is a particular threat, has an across-the-board VAT applicable equally to all types of food.
I was most interested to hear my noble friend the Minister saying in the course of his speech that one of

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our problems has been that we were moving from a cheap food policy to a dear food policy. I would be very grateful if, when he comes to reply, he could say whether that was just a very general statement or whether it was, in fact, an advance warning of a definite trend which the Government themselves support and would like to encourage. It could be that it is in that sort of area that the type of matters about which I am complaining might indeed be solved.
Your Lordships may be scornful that I am talking about sweets—and one can look at the matter in that way—but I am also talking about a major export-earning product and about the practical disincentive to export that the Government can create by the imposition of an anti-competitive taxation policy. I am not sure that the Government realise that their discrimination within the application of VAT is an anti-competitive taxation policy, but that is what it is. The Government, therefore, have something to answer for in that the people in the departments that administer the VAT probably do not know anything about competition, anyway. Indeed, that relates back to the point I was making earlier.
Other examples of bad taxation have been mentioned by other noble Lords. For example, there is the payroll tax which is known as the national insurance surcharge. That applies to all industry and cannot be identified as anti-competitive as between sectors of industry. However, it is a serious disincentive to competitiveness of British industry internationally as, indeed, also is the anti-competitive effect of the Government's energy policy, to which the noble Lord, Lord Irving of Dartford, referred at some length.
One could go on, but enough has surely been said to show the Government that while industry can do much to help itself so, too, can the Government help, especially by being vigilant to identify all the areas in which their activities can hamper competitiveness in British industry, both directly and indirectly, at home and abroad. Of course the Government want to help, but to do so they must develop the will and the ability to adjust policy to help productive industry to be competitive world-wide.
7.17 p.m.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, I must say that I do not particularly enjoy making a speech from my new position in what I would term the "choristers' stalls" and, having made my speech, I am afraid that I shall return to something a little more comfortable immediately below me.
In speaking on the first Motion in this debate I should like to try to analyse some of the reasons why British industry is in its present state, as I think that that may be a helpful background for deciding what might be done to improve matters. If there were only one or two reasons for our decline it would be relatively easy to concentrate upon them. However, there are many. I propose to mention seven, but each of those main headings—which, of course, are arbitrary—has a number of possible sub-divisions. In trying to make such an analysis, it seems to me very important to distinguish between cause and effect. Low productivity, poor quality of goods and unemployment are all obvious defects produced by
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underlying maladies in our national industrial corpus.
If I were asked to give just one general reason for our decline I would say that it was due to our failure to make gradual changes, which were obviously needed, in time. The noble Lord, Lord Schon, summed that up rather neatly in our last debate by saying that the British only see the writing on the wall when they have their backs to it. That leads me on to my first point: human relationships—more often called industrial relations.
At the end of the last war it should have been patently apparent to all management that they would no longer have a big stick to wield over blue-collared workers, whether or not they wanted it. The only alternative was leadership, inspiring people with a sense of purpose and a corporate spirit—call it what you will. In fact, in most cases management did not employ the most elementary techniques of achieving this end. There is still much that could be done in this direction and talking about the need for communication has obscured the issue. To many communication simply means passing more copies of papers around. I think that we should all remember the Duke of Wellington's dictum about there being no bad troops, only bad officers.
Secondly, when I joined a large company in 1959, management still believed in their hearts that Britain made the best engineering goods in the world and it was the customer's misfortune if they did not buy them. This inhibited a good marketing approach in its widest sense. The effects of this are still with us today. Some detailed facets of the problem have already been mentioned; for example, delivery dates and the need for our salesmen to have foreign languages. Even more unfortunately, because it takes a long time to put right, not enough of our really able young men have been going into industry. It has been thought to be a second-rate and unpleasant career.
Thirdly, although we are an outstanding nation as far as research and new ideas are concerned, we signally fail as regards development and putting the ideas into a marketable product. The wartime development of radar is perhaps a classic case, although under wartime conditions there were excuses for that. Atomic energy is a more recent example, but there are many others. Probably the status of our all-important engineers has a great deal to do with this failure. Fourthly, small businesses are the acorns from which large oaks grow. We have fewer of them than, for example, Germany, and in the past they have not been given the encouragement that they deserve.
Fifthly, I come to investment in new plant and other capital equipment. Industry needs to be able to see a reasonably certain future before making long-term capital investment. Constant changes in Government policy and a mass of inhibiting regulations, with added financial burdens, have been a very strong deterrent. Adversary politics between the parties are very greatly to blame. However, high interest rates and inadequate financial returns are perhaps the major deterrent today.
Sixthly and seventhly are the economic and financial climate and the unions. These are probably the two most important inhibiting factors. However, I do not want to say much about either of them. The economic and financial climate has been discussed at length by the CBI and others, and noble Lords far

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more qualified than I have already mentioned this and, of course, the demerits of the Budget. I would only make the rather sour remark that as all economists seem to disagree, the financial system seems to be our master, not our slave.
As to the unions, unreasonable pay demands, failure to take a longer-term view of their members' interests, plain selfishness engendered by the interests of far too many unions and unnecessary strikes are things which a nation cannot afford. The unions have shown themselves even more conservative to change in their own organisations than parliamentarians.
I think that it is all summed up by what the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, said in the previous debate about the visit of the Russian trade unionists. The TUC representatives asked them to say what was the main function of the Russian trade unions. They replied that it is, of course, to increase productivity. On their being asked whether they were not interested in increasing the wellbeing of their members, the reply was "Oh, yes, of course, we are, but how can we do that unless productivity rises?"
Finally, I should like to make the point that, quite apart from the social effects of unemployment and the cost of unemployment benefits, we must remember the hard indisputable economic fact that the more people who work usefully—and I repeat usefully—for the longest reasonable time, the richer the nation would be. Of course, there are many reasons why, with improved technology, unemployment at the moment is inevitable, and palliatives such as work-sharing, shorter working hours, and so on are necessary. But palliatives they are; they should be seen as such, except in so far as the nation may, in the future, like to take greater riches in terms of greater leisure.
But what about our inability to pay for so many social benefits and services, which are acknowledged as being desirable but which we cannot afford? I realise that in this analysis I have made a few direct recommendations, each of which merits a full length speech, but I hope that this analysis may highlight some of the areas where others can, in fact, think more deeply and produce more useful answers to our fundamental problems.
7.28 p.m.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, perhaps I may have the leave of the House to wind up briefly just on the points that have been put to me and with nothing in the way of an additional speech; except of course to congratulate our three maiden speakers who steered a difficult course very well, because this has been an interesting debate and, as in all interesting debates, one is liable to steer into the waters of controversy.
The noble Lord, Lord Benson, dealt with inflation in such a way—and I hope it does not abuse his speech to say this—that the Government draw considerable comfort from it. My noble friend Lord McAlpine said, "Give young people a chance", which is perhaps not too controversial; I would certainly agree with it. But he also indulged in a little controversy by saying that head hunters were a ghastly evil born of desperation. I have no doubt that letters from eminent headhunting firms will pour into this House tomorrow. The speech of my noble friend Lord Matthews encourages
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me to look forward very much to his contributions when he is not making an uncontroversial speech. Indeed, we look forward to hearing all the maiden speakers again.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who I do not see in his place, has asked me questions about public purchasing and the influence of standards. Certainly the influence of standards in promoting successful implementation of the Government's new purchasing policy is very crucial, and we are having continuing discussions between the Department of Industry, all other Government Departments (as I said in my initial remarks), the nationalised industries and other public sector organisations. As I said in my opening speech, we are trying to set our own house in order, but other people should follow suit in encouraging the introduction of new products and processes, promoting better design, and matching specifications to the needs of the world markets, preferably by reference to British Standards where these are suitable.
The noble Baroness, Lady Seear, mentioned the Budget. Certainly we were able in the previous Budget to give improvements on profit sharing and some tax reliefs there, and of course we should have liked to have done more in this Budget, and that will have to wait for resources. We have made a start. I certainly agree with her on her Bullock points, to use a shorthand, although I think it is an important part of our philosophy about this area that it must be the firms that give the lead in working out the arrangements that best suit them with their own managers and employees. I think we share a suspicion of centralised direction of this kind, but I take every opportunity I can to say that just because the Government are desisting from centralised legislation, it does not mean that we think that this issue should lie down and go away. It is a crucial one, and again I made reference to it in my original speech.
Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, mentioned metrication. Again, the answer is somewhat the same as the Bullock point. There are no legislative obstacles to people using metrication. Public sector purchasers are committed to the metric system, but we think it best that the pace of the programme should rest with industry itself. Again it is a matter of argument, but I am not sure that centralised direction from Government other than by example, which we have in fact performed, would be efficacious.
A rather technical answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. I hope, when he reads it, he will understand it better than I do. BS5750 is readily available from the British Standards Institute. It costs £5, and it is up to firms to obtain this standard and pay the £5 for themselves. The noble Baroness asked me why it took so long to get through the Monopolies Commission. I applaud her pleasure in privatising, to use that unpleasant term. As she knows, we are proceeding as fast with privatising as we can, but of course monopolies can be troublesome in the private sector. We are aware of the problem of delays. We have recently strengthened the Commission. Where delays occur, this is usually a reflection of the complexities of the issues involved. The Commission's investigation is a quasi-judicial proceeding and the parties are often legally represented. That makes it rather

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difficult simply to cut through with directives. New style reports on public sector bodies under the Competition Act of last year are now taking only months to complete. I think that is reasonably good news.
Apart from one or two strictures on the Budget, may I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, on an admirable speech, with a very large amount of which I agreed. He was in favour of productivity and in favour of profits, although I thought that he associated profitability with the excellence or otherwise of one Government or another, whereas I should have thought that what firms had been putting out in wages had something to do with profits. Certainly we have a long way to go to explain to people—and here again the Bullock point is important—how important profitability is to investment, and therefore to future levels of employment and competitiveness.
The only point at which I really quarrelled, apart from the party political ones, with the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, was when he said in, for him, almost a contemptuous tone that people are buying coin in the slot Star Wars machines. It was the noble Baroness who reminded us that the consumer does really matter, and if people want to buy such things, one must not depise them and indeed one must congratulate the many British firms that even now are manufacturing and exporting.
Lord Gregson: My Lords, may I just make a correction on that point? I did not really say that people were buying them. The point I was making was that these were being held up as outstanding examples of sunrise industry. I consider them to be a very minor market compared with the more massive markets available in the more stable industries that exist in this country.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I am glad to take correction from the noble Lord, as long as we encourage entrepreneurs and manufacturers to manufacture things which people want to buy. It is clear that we are manufacturing these machines, that people at home and abroad want to buy them, and we are doing very well on them. One of the reasons why the Eastern bloc is in such a mess and the Far Eastern bloc is doing so well is that the latter are highly sensitive to not only consumer demand but shifts in consumer demand at any given point all over the world.
The noble Lord, like the noble Baroness, urged a reduction of the exchange rate. I do not think that there is an easy way of doing this. The pound has eased somewhat, I am glad to say, in recent days, but any Government in possession of energy and also in possession of a determined counter-inflation policy are going to have a high currency. When my right honourable friends abandon their counter-inflation policies, as I for one very much hope they will never do, then we would see a slide in the pound.
The noble Lord, Lord Gregson, asked me a question about BSI. It received a grant in aid of £2,150,000 in the current year, and on a pound-for-pound basis with industry, for the next financial year the grant will be rather over £3 million if matched by equal industrial subscription. I hope that that point, as well as the
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point of our co-ordinating the development of quality assurance arrangements in various sectors of our industry, will give him some assurance.
The Public Sector Standardisation Team was indeed discontinued to avoid unnecessary costs, but public sector bodies have been asked to use British Standards wheresoever possible. I think in this country we are prone to think that the presence of a body to do something is a guarantee in itself that it will be done. That is not necessarily the case. One can get on and see that things are done without providing the necessary institutions.
My noble friend Lord Bessborough made an admirable speech, not least because he was not afraid to use lantern slides, and gave us instances of three companies, among many in this country, which are highly competitive and highly successful. One of the difficulties one sometimes has working in a Government department is that it is rather hard to get hold of physical slides, or not to feel that perhaps the Minister is making an unreasonable plug for a given firm, or that he will incur the ire of the competitor of that given firm if he mentions them. Therefore, I am glad that my noble friend stuck his neck out and told us three success stories. I also recommend to the House a sentence from my noble friend's speech, when he said that it is little or no good for this country to manufacture goods here which have little or no skill content. Surely that is the way in which our economy has to develop.
I hope that the House will read in conjunction the speeches of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, both last week and this week, as they are very much part of a piece, and they are among the most intelligent and analytical approaches to this problem that I have myself come into. I hope that he might perhaps take a leaf out of Lord Kaldor's book and have them issued by Hansard together so that we can all attend to them. He said that robots were the answer to our assembly lines, and made a point which I often try to make myself whenever I can. Of course now that we are frightened of unemployment levels, and quite understandably so, we take refuge in our industries, our old industries, and try to maintain them, but in fact if we were not frightened of high levels of unemployment we would be continuing to vote with our feet by leaving traditional heavy manufacturing industry as we were doing right throughout the 1960s and 1970s. I hope that as the recession and inflation stabilise and as confidence returns that people will see that the important thing is to automate these kinds of heavy industries and to use the wealth thereby created in other sectors of the economy.
The noble Lord, Lord Irving of Dartford, and I have crossed swords many times about energy policy. I think he certainly won one recently, and the Government, under the aegis of the NEDC report, are looking at the problems of big consumers. But for those eager addicts, or seismographs, of a U-turn wherever they may lie, I might point out that really this is not a shift of ground—not that that necessarily matters—on energy pricing, but it is an effort to understand and to compensate for the movement of sterling against very high energy consumers. We are as committed as ever to economic pricing.
On energy subjects, we had a fascinating disquisition from the appropriately-named noble Lord, Lord

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Energlyn, and I will send it (I will do it personally through my private office) to my honourable friend Mr. Moore, who is the Minister responsible for coal. One learns something new in each debate in your Lordships' House. I in my innocent way had always associated Marie Stopes with sex, not with coal, and I am delighted to have had that cleared up.
My noble friend Lord Mottistone urged us to cut Government waste. We have the continuous example of the Rayner exercises going on now, in the Civil Service and we are taking his advice there. My noble friend asked what I meant by moving to a dear food policy, and whether it was some sinister weapon in the Government's armoury which might be unleashed. That was not the point I was making. My point was that in the 'fifties and early 'sixties, with Commonwealth preference and cheap commodity prices in the world, we in this country had cheaper food than our European competitors had in theirs, and that kept wages low and perhaps encouraged manufacturers to invest less and take on more labour. That transition has been painful to us, but it is certainly not a transition we can avoid. I shall make the point about VAT in the confectionery industry to my noble friend Lord Cockfield.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, announced that he was debating with me for the first time from the choristers' stall. I always longed to meet a Social Democrat in the flesh, and this has been an interesting and new experience. The noble Viscount said we must desist from adversary politics. I hope that he and his colleagues will promise to desist from adversary politics on behalf of the Social Democratic movement. More seriously, he made the point, with which I think we all agreed, about not downgrading the status of those involved in marketing. As a temporarily-retired commercial traveller myself, I must agree with that.
He talked about the status of engineers, and we have often debated that issue in the context of the Finniston Report. I hope it is not too material of me, but to some degree (and it may be regrettable) the problems of status are fundamentally the problems of pay. If we had lots of engineers in their 30s earning what, say, barristers in their 30s can earn, we should not have too much anxiety about status. However, I was glad to see that the noble Viscount acknowledged that the Budget gave small business the encouragement it deserves. I will see that my various right honourable friends in the various departments I represent, not least my own crucial one of Employment, take all points on board; and I am grateful to the House for having given me leave to reply to the debate.
7.44 p.m.
The Earl of Shannon: My Lords, we come to the end of what I think we all agree has been a most interesting and constructive debate. As I forecast, many noble Lords have given us the benefit of their highly specialised and expert knowledge. Our three maiden speakers acquitted themselves with great distinction. The noble Lord, Lord Benson, referred to our self-inflicted restrictions on industry and stressed the importance of working with a common purpose. The noble Lord, Lord McAlpine of Moffat, emphasised the need for good management and sound and progressive leadership. The noble Lord, Lord Matthews, forecast the
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necessity of modern trade union structure. I know that I speak for all noble Lords when I say that we congratulate our maiden speakers and will welcome their future contributions on the basis of their performance today.
In his original speech, the Minister noted the strong Anglo-Irish contingent participating in the debate this afternoon. Perhaps therefore I was wrong in my speech in suggesting that this debate should more appropriately have taken place before the Budget so that we really could have given the Chancellor some helpful advice. I was wrong in that because, in view of what the Minister said, the debate obviously should have taken place next Tuesday, and I would inform the uninitiated that that is the Feast of St. Patrick.
I admit that I cast a fly over the House with my statement about industrial robots reducing unemployment. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, almost rose to my fly but then declined it, though the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, took the fly completely and gave a full and interesting description of how this apparent anomaly comes about. He went on to abolish the industries of at least two of our maiden speakers and for good measure, with devastating etymological logic, then destroyed the Labour Party completely.
The hour is late and it is quite beyond my ability to do justice in commenting on the expert contributions that have been made this afternoon, and already that has been well done by the Minister. I thank all those who have contributed and I hope that their expert and knowledgeable observations will be valuable to Her Majesty's Government. They might even help them repair the errors of their ways and encourage them to further efforts in the fields where they are on the right path.
Finally, I will once again refer to the figures given by the Secretary of State for Industry in his address to the National Economic Development Office; namely, that the British Government give only one-tenth of the support to research and development in industrial productivity as do the West German Government, so perhaps there is a very good case for considering whether we should improve on the figure. I conclude by once again thanking noble Lords who have contributed to the debate and I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

Licensing (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
7.47 p.m.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. This short Bill is presented in order to modify Section 81(4) of the Licensing Act 1964 which concerns the revocation of special hours' certificates. The permitted hours for the sale or supply of intoxicating liquor where a special hours certificate is in force are specified in Section 76 of the Act. With certain limited exceptions, the evening closing hour on weekdays is extended to midnight and is further extended, when music and dancing continues beyond that hour, to 2 a.m., and in certain parts of London to 3 a.m., or the hour at which music and dancing ends, whichever is the earlier.

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The procedure of applying for the grant of a special hours' certificate differs slightly between registered clubs and other premises licensed for the sale of liquor. In the latter category I have in mind particularly discotheques, public houses and proprietary clubs. To summarise the difference, a club which is run by its members for its members—there are some common ones like the Athenaeum and the Carlton—are registered clubs. If a club is under an owner who offers some particular service, such as food, drink, dancing, cabaret and such like, to the public after they have been admitted to membership (for example, what is commonly called a night-club) then that is a proprietary club.
At present a special hours' certificate must be granted by licensing justices with respect to premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquor other than registered clubs, provided that the following two conditions are fulfilled: first, a music and dancing licence has been issued—in London the authority for issuing this licence is the Greater London Council; secondly, the premises are structurally adapted and are to be used for the purpose of providing music and dancing, and for the provision of substantial refreshment to which the sale of intoxicating liquor is ancillary. In other words, the premises are not to be used merely for the sale of intoxicating liquor.
Applications for the grant of special hours certificates for registered clubs are made to a magistrates' court, and the court is bound to grant a certificate if conditions similar to those for licensed premises apply, except that in place of the condition that there must be in force a music and dancing licence for the premises, there is substituted a need for the court to be satisfied that a certificate has been issued by the entertainments licensing authority (again, in London this is the Greater London Council) as to the suitability of the premises for the grant of a music and dancing licence.
If I may be permitted to digress for a moment, I would say I have had experience of the work of inspecting buildings where there was made an application for an entertainment licence or an application to alter any part of the premises already licensed, as well as the work of making regular inspections when a licence has been granted. That was when I was an employee of the Greater London Council's architect's department, in the building regulation division. The rules are strict, but practical, and they minimise to the fullest possible extent the chances of a disaster such as the horrific fire in Dublin last month.
In the case of a special hours certificate granted for a registered club the Licensing Act provides that the chief officer of police can apply to the magistrates' court for the revocation of the special hours certificate, at any time, should the premises gain an unfortunate reputation for disorderly conduct. But at present no such power for revocation exists in respect of discotheques, public houses, and proprietary clubs.
In the Greater London area the Greater London Council and the Metropolitan Police are alarmed at the increase in violence at licensed premises providing entertainment, and I am sure that local authorities and police forces in many other regions of the country are similarly concerned. Some of the establishments of the kind that I have mentioned, to which special hours
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certificates have been issued, have become the scenes of disorderly conduct. Some managements have endeavoured to curb this by employing people who are officially referred to as security attendants, but who are commonly known as "bouncers". But it seems to be the case that where such people are employed there are further incidents of disorderly conduct.
As it stands at present, Section 81(4) of the Licensing Act gives scope for the revocation of a special hours certificate for a registered club on the grounds of disorderly or indecent conduct, but not for the other types of premise to which I have referred; namely, discotheques, public houses, and proprietary clubs. Thus an unfortunate anomaly exists. The Bill intends to remove the anomaly by making an appopriate extension to the power of revocation in Section 81(4). In view of the strong connection that is considered to exist between drinking and violence, the police feel that the Bill will greatly assist their efforts to combat crime and violence. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Gainford.)
7.54 p.m.
Lord Boston of Faversham: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, is to be congratulated on introducing the Bill and the way in which he explained it and on having identified this anomaly in our licensing laws. I think, too, it is a fact that our licensing laws are almost excruciatingly intricate, and he has quite clearly mastered the complexities of this branch of our law. On the other hand, it does not necessarily follow that once an anomaly has been identified, we should go ahead and reform the law automatically, unless it can be shown that there is a problem, that there is a way to solve it, and that it ought to be solved.
Until I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, I proposed to raise two points in connection with the Bill. First, I had proposed to inquire as to any knowledge of the extent of the problem, but the noble Lord has already addressed himself to that point. I was also going to venture to ask whether there was any information about the way in which the police regarded this particular proposal, but the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, has addressed himself to that point, too. So he has anticipated the only two queries that I had been planning to raise, and certainly he has satisfied me on both points, if I may say so with thanks. So I believe that it has been useful for the Bill to be introduced, and it seems to me that if your Lordships decide to give it a Second Reading, and it is eventually passed, it will serve a very useful purpose.
7.56 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead): My Lords, I should like to express my thanks to my noble friend Lord Gainford for his clear description of the Bill's intentions. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Boston of Faversham, that our licensing laws are very intricate, and I was delighted to hear from my noble friend a definition of the difference between the Carlton Club and a nightclub. More seriously, it was most helpful to have my noble friend's very clear explanation of the problem which the Bill seeks to put right.

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The Government think that this is a measure which will provide the police with a useful weapon in their armoury to combat violence and hooliganism at licensed premises where late-night drinking takes place under the authority of special hours certificates. As Lord Boston has said, my noble friend has described for us the increasing problem of violence at these premises, especially in the Metropolitan Police area. The Government recognise the trouble that can be caused in this way, as well as the concern of the police in relation to it and their desire to be able to take swift remedial action. Therefore, the Bill is in principle entirely acceptable to the Government, and we hope that in due course it will become law.
I should like to add one point. In considering the Bill I think it right to bear in mind that Section 77 of the Licensing Act 1964 provides that if the licensee of licensed premises, who is the holder of a licence for public music and dancing, applies to the licensing justices for a special hours certificate, the justices are bound to grant the certificate. As I understand it, they have no discretion in the matter. As my noble friend said, the grant of a special hours certificate effectively extends the hours for alcohol to be sold to two o'clock in the morning, and three o'clock in Inner London. It is true that in the near future, when the provisions of Sections 2 and 3 of the Licensing (Amendment) Act 1980 are brought into force, the justices will have discretionary powers to limit the operation of the special hours certificate to an earlier period. But the point is that if things go wrong, and a chief officer of police considers it right to apply for a club special hours certificate to be revoked, there is no provision in the 1964 Act for a special hours certificate for licensed premises to be revoked immediately, and the Bill of my noble friend Lord Gainford seeks to correct that anomaly.
As I have already said, I join with the noble Lord, Lord Boston, in welcoming this measure. The Government think that it will enable the police to deal more effectively with the incidence of violence at badly-run premises, and I would therefore support my noble friend Lord Gainford in moving that the Bill should now be given a Second Reading.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, by your leave, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Boston, for his encouraging remarks and to my noble friend the Minister not only for his encouraging remarks but also for the interesting and useful facts which added to what I have already said. There is now nothing left for me to do but ask your Lordships' House to give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1981
8 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Elton)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Elton) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 23rd February be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the order is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974 and provides for the appropriation of both the 1980–81 Spring Supplementary Estimates and the Sums Required on Account for 1981–82 by Northern Ireland departments. These spring Supplementary Estimates represent for the most part relatively small adjustments to the spending plans of Northern Ireland departments for this financial year. This is because the major augmentation of the 1980–81 Main Estimates was made by the autumn Supplementary Estimates, which were covered by the Appropriation (No. 3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1980. That order was debated and approved by your Lordships in December last.
Detailed information on the draft order is to be found in the Estimates volume and the Statement of Sums Required on Account, copies of which have been placed in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office, and also in the explanatory memorandum which I have circulated to noble Lords who participated in the last appropriation order debate. There are, nonetheless, a number of important items in the present draft order to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention.
First, I should like to mention some of the principal features of the supplementary provision which is being sought. Under Class II, Vote 4, Functioning of the Labour Market, noble Lords will see that additional provision of £7·7 million is being sought for the Temporary Short-Time Working Compensation Scheme. Expenditure on this scheme was originally estimated at £3·3 million but, due to the continuing difficulties experienced by Northern Ireland's industry, demand for grant assistance under the terms of this scheme has risen considerably, and it is now estimated that the scheme will cost some £11 million in 1980–81.
At this point I should emphasise that the decreases shown under Class II Vote 4 in the spring Supplementary Estimates volume are for the most part not reductions; they eflect earlier reallocations which could not be shown in full in the autumn Supplementary Estimates because of the conventions governing the presentation of the Estimates. The balance represents some internal reallocations within the programme of the Department of Manpower Services which have become necessary in order to meet changed circumstances.
Under Class VII, Vote 1, Protective Services, your Lordships will see that £100,000 is being sought for additional costs arising from the firemen's pay dispute. Your Lordships will recall that because of possible industrial action by firemen last November it was necessary to invoke emergency arrangements under which the armed forces would provide a skeleton fire service using the Green Goddess appliances which are held for civil defence purposes. The 30 appliances held in Northern Ireland were put in a serviceable condition and deployed to the army and the Supplementary Estimate is required to meet the costs involved.
On those Votes for which the Department of Education is responsible, token supplementary provision is sought to indicate the additional requirements for the pay of teachers in schools and institutions of further education. A reassessment of these costs shows an additional requirement of £1·6 million in Class VIII,

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Vote 1, schools, although no actual increase is necessary in the total voted provisions because of reductions in provision for capital grants to voluntary schools. Noble Lords will remember that these reductions were detailed when the autumn Supplementary Estimates were presented with the Appropriation (No. 3) (Northern Ireland) Order 1980, but again it has not been possible to incorporate them in an Estimate until now.
I have considered it particularly important to retain the number of full-time teachers in the current academic year and the supplementary provision sought is necessary to meet the cost of the original allocation of teachers. As noble Lords will, however, be aware, some marginal savings are being sought through a revision of the rules governing the appointment of substitute teachers, and these are currently the subject of detailed discussions with the teachers' unions. The revised assessment of the cost of teachers' salaries in institutions of further education, shown in Class VIII, Vote 2, Higher and Further Education, is £300,000. In this Vote, offsetting savings arise on student support, on which the uptake of awards has been less than expected.
Turning to the provision for health services, your Lordships will see that supplementary provision of some £9·2 million is sought under Class IX, Vote 2, Family Practitioner and Other Services. These services are, of course, demand-determined and are not subject to cash limits. The largest proportion of the additional provision sought relates to the payment of fees to medical and dental practitioners and pharmaceutical chemists. The increased expenditure on those services is partly offset by a reduction of £150,000 in the planned expenditure on welfare foods, for which demand has proved lower than anticipated.
In the social security field, the draft order incorporates provision for additional expenditure arising from an increase in the number of unemployed. An additional £5 million is sought in respect of supplementary benefits under Class X, Vote 2, Non-Contributory Benefits, while the additional £½ million included under Class X, Vote 4, Administration, reflects higher administrative and staffing costs.
I shall now turn to the other element in the draft order, the Sums Required on Account for 1981–82. These amount in total to £944,360,200. It is necessary to have these sums available to Northern Ireland departments by the beginning of the new financial year, so as to enable services to continue until the balance of the 1981–82 Main Estimates are debated with the next appropriation order. That will probably be in early July. The Sums Required on Account for 1981–82 are calculated on a standard formula of 45 per cent of the total provision for the previous—that is, the current—financial year. There are a few exceptions to this rule where it is known that expenditure plans will differ significantly from this pattern. They do not therefore give any indication of the total provision which will be sought for 1981–82. It is the Main Estimates that will provide the detail of the spending plans of Northern Ireland departments for 1981–82.
I believe I have now referred to all the most important features of the draft order, but I know that noble Lords will wish to raise other points. I am most grateful to those who have given me advance notice of
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matters of particular concern to them. I shall try to answer as many questions as possible at the end of the debate; those questions to which I cannot give an immediate reply will be dealt with in correspondence as swiftly as possible. I commend the draft order to your Lordships, and I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 23rd February be approved.—(Lord Elton).
8.9 p.m.
Lord Blease: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for outlining this draft appropriation order in some detail. I should also like to thank him for a copy of the explanatory memorandum, which I always find very useful. I regret that it was not possible for me to give the Minister the usual due notice of the matters I wish to raise here this evening, but on previous occasions he has kindly dealt very expeditiously with matters I have raised by writing to me, and I would be grateful if he could reply suitably to those matters which he may not be in a position to answer here this evening.
Last March, when we considered a similar appropriation order, the noble Lord mentioned the late hour at which the House was sitting. He drew attention to:
"The custom of dealing only in general terms with money matters over which this House does not have power".
That is from volume 406, No. 97, column 1279 of the Official Report. However general may be the terms we are expected to deal with in these appropriation matters, I consider this order to be important to the people of Northern Ireland. At the same time, I have no desire to give undue credence to an unhelpful if not a charade-type of ritual form of approval. The financial provisions in this order and in other appropriation orders govern crucial economical and social decisions concerning the wellbeing and self-respect of Northern Ireland people.
It is my opinion that these appropriation orders are not being dealt with in a manner considered conducive to the encouragement of responsible public accountability and attitudes. Both in this House and, more particularly and importantly from the elected representatives' position in the other place, the order-in-council procedure places us in a Catch 22 situation. We are boxed in and unable effectively to influence vital decisions already taken against the pronounced views of representatives of community interests in Northern Ireland concerning their livelihood and the prosperity of the Ulster people.
In the absence of a devolved assembly, I believe there is an urgent need to review the parliamentary procedures for dealing with appropriation and financial matters. I suggest there is wide support for a change, either by the appointment of a parliamentary Select Committee for Northern Ireland or by the establishment of a Northern Ireland Public Finance and Accounts Commission.
The Official Report of this House of Wednesday last, 4th March, records my view about chronically high levels of unemployment and the acute deprivation in the Province. It is not my intention to repeat tonight the detailed statistics of the plight of the unemployed, the aged and the young people in the Province. Sufficient to say that few if any in Northern

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Ireland consider that this appropriation order or the Budget yesterday will ease the crippling burden on Northern Ireland industry and the community. The headline of the Belfast News Letter this morning declares: "It is a vicious Budget: vicious, faulty and unsound".
This Budget, in the opinion of many persons in Northern Ireland to whom I have spoken by telephone today divides the Northern Ireland population and underlines and reinforces the difference between the poor and the rest of the population. We should be very conscious of the need to listen and care for minority groups for in this century when great injustice has been done to minority, violent consequences have followed. Today, the voice of the poor, who are the largest minority—40 per cent. of the population—has not been heeded. We will fail to listen to that voice at our peril. The Budget may have contributed significantly to the instability of society and it is little comfort to the people of Northern Ireland to know that further declines in living standards there may help to boost entrepreneurial activities in the South-East of England. That is the best that can be achieved, in the opinion of many, by the feeble measures introduced to assist new industry. Certainly, it will not assist industry in Northern Ireland.
When we considered the autumn Supplementary and Appropriation Order (No. 3) I stated then that the Government was widely off course as far as economic development strategy could be envisaged. This order confirms the view expressed then and demonstrates just how widely off course the Government are. How other can we explain the appropriation of £20 million? None of it is for industrial promotion or for economic regeneration or for productivity improvement. This £20 million is mainly to pay for unemployment through factory closures and short-time working. The Minister mentioned this in some detail.
If we turn to page 2 of the spring Supplementary Estimate—Class II, 4, A7—we find that the original estimate of £3,283,000 has risen to £11 million (already mentioned by the Minister) for the temporary, short-time working compensation scheme. This is an unproductive form of expenditure and has been reallocated from other sources.
I should like to put this question to the Minister. Is it not a fact that some 25,000 people are now working short time under this scheme and that this number is likely to rise for some time to come? Is this not a hidden form of unemployment; and that the figures for unemployment in Northern Ireland are really much higher than those publicly portrayed because of this hidden form of the short-time working arrangement?
Page 3, Class 4, A3, "Enterprise Ulster". I think the Minister will know my view about the excellent scheme we had working for a number of years. Here is a transfer of £392,000 from the present provision and the reason given for the transfer is because of reduced activity. At this late hour I do not wish to go into details of points that I want to raise; but can the Minister say if there has been any decision taken to review and progressively improve the structure and objectives of "Enterprise Ulster" particularly in consultation with the trade unions? We realise that after a time of working of this experimental scheme, it may need some re-adjustment. I would certainly urge the
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Minister to ensure that there is no rundown of this "Enterprise Ulster" scheme.
On page 3, again, Class 2, 4, B: "Rehabilitation and Employment of Disabled Persons". We all know that this is the International Year of the Disabled. I think it is pitiful and pathetic if not ironical to read that the explanation for the transfer of £159,000 from this particular Vote is reduced activity. I have had a number of persons raise with me the inadequacy of the rehabilitation scheme; but to have it further curtailed I think is an indictment of the whole approach to the handicapped and disabled in Northern Ireland—if not to the unemployed.
I should like to ask the Minister to confirm whether the Government rehabilitation centres for unemployment for disabled persons are being run down and reduced. In "Industrial Training", under Sections C1, C2 and C3, we have a transfer of £1,006,000 from Government training centres. The Minister will know of a report issued within the last few days by the Equal Opportunities Commission which drew attention to the fact that the number of trainees in training centres has been cut from 1,150 in 1978 to only 343 in January this year. Of course, as the Equal Opportunities Commission naturally would, they draw attention to the fact that only five girls served apprenticeships in Government training centres out of a total of 1,963. This compares with the,situation in Great Britain as a whole where girls occupied some 45 per cent. of openings under the training opportunities schemes. Girls in Northern Ireland take only 11·3 per cent. of the places. I am concentrating on only one aspect of this particular report which deals with the training of girls; but I think that if Northern Ireland is to be regenerated and acquire new industrial skills we cannot afford to run down the industrial training schemes.
I should like to put two questions to the Minister. Can he indicate what consultations have taken place with both sides of industry in Northern Ireland about the reduction in Government training? Can he in any way indicate how many additional apprentices have been taken on by employers now that the training scheme has been more or less agreed to be operated by employers at employers' premises?
I have had a number of matters raised with me but the hour is late. The Minister will know my connection and concern over the years with the Youth Opportunities Scheme, and I should like to put a question to him. Is there a place now available for all unemployed school-leavers in the Youth Opportunities Scheme in Northern Ireland? He will also know of the criticism of the Government's decision about the payment of unemployment benefit taken by a number of educational boards. Just a few days ago the Belfast board condemned the change which could mean young people losing several hundred pounds if they stay on at school and take examinations and finish a course of education. The Reverend Albert Sleith said that the move would cause criminal vandalism. I quote:
"It is one of the most obnoxious pieces of legislation I have ever seen".
The senior education officer, Mr. Bob Stewart, reported that the new rules could create a very unfortunate situation and could mean very real financial problems for families in the lowest income group.

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May I ask the Minister whether he will look at this new arrangement for curtailing the payment of unemployment benefit to persons at the end of the school-leaving year? Regarding the arts in Northern Ireland, the Minister will also know of the concern that has been expressed regarding cuts in grants. In a report of 23rd February this year it was indicated that Ulster receives less money for the promotion of the arts than any other part of the United Kingdom. In England, grant aid per head of population came to £1·21. In Wales it was £1·77. In Scotland it was £1·61 and in Northern Ireland £1·14. That is below the national average of £1·28. In Northern Ireland, again we have been sacrificed and are again the poor relation of the whole of the United Kingdom in this particular field of the arts. I hope that the Minister will follow what I am saying in my garbled way but I am trying to be as quick as I can.
I will omit a number of matters that have been raised with me as there is someone present who will probably wish to mention farming. However, I would say that the farming community has my whole-hearted support in this particular time of their difficulties. There is no doubt that the Northern Ireland agricultural industry is facing one of the greatest crises in its history. Whatever the EEC may come up with in the next few days, they cannot hope to meet their shortfall in income which is forcing so many small farmers to the wall. Someone has said that they have had a drop of 80 per cent. in their real income in the past two years. I think that is catastrophic for anyone attempting to carry on in the farming community in Northern Ireland.
My last point deals with the industrial development policy of the Government. The Minister will be aware that a number of representative bodies and responsible persons from Northern Ireland have put forward views to the Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State about the need to have more streamlined, co-ordinated and effective means of creating employment. I understand that a consultative forum involving industrial development institutions and the Northern Ireland Economic Council was established and held its first meeting in June of last year. May I ask the Minister whether he can indicate what progress has been made by this forum towards the agreed objectives for co-ordination and job promotion?
Energy and transport have been matters about which people have written to me. This was dealt with at some length in the Commons when this order was debated on Monday. One point was omitted and should like the Minister to consider it. During the summer months we have had the opportunity to purchase low priced coal. That helps to ease the burden a little for retired people. I shall not deal with Schedule 2 to the order: the sums requested on account. I look forward to taking part in the debate when the Estimates are more clearly known.
8.27 p.m.
Lord Hampton: My Lords, I also should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for his explanation of this order, and for his courtesy in supplying information in advance. Ever since I heard that these two orders for Northern Ireland had been held over to today, I have pictured the plane-loads of ex-Prime
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Ministers, Governors and MPs let alone the other distinguished people—pouring into the country to take part in this debate. However, for myself, I hope, if I can, to play a constructive part.
I believe that some speakers in the debate on this appropriation order in the other place fell into the trap of an indiscriminate attack on everything that the Government are doing in the Province, and I shall attempt to avoid that mistake. But let me voice criticism on two important points. The first is the Budget. I follow the noble Lord, Lord Blease, in much of what he has said. The Budget seems to have done little or nothing for the people of Northern Ireland. The harsh measures will bear down painfully where there is already poverty, and nothing has been done to level out energy costs throughout the United Kingdom. It can be argued that a country that has no indigenous fossil fuels—as Ulster has not—must bear the consequences. But surely today we have reached a stage where those least able to help themselves are not mercilessly sent to the wall.
Secondly, I should like to point out that, in an interesting debate on unemployment last week, a number of noble Lords—including the noble Lord, Lord Blease, and myself—referred to the seriousness of the economic situation in Northern Ireland today. However, the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, made no reference whatsoever to the problems of the Province when he came to his—in most ways—skilful winding-up speech.
The order that we are debating today appears to be just a series of figures; but of course it covers a depth of human problems. My party disagrees with the Government on some of their policies but in no way do we accuse them of heartless promotion of unemployment for narrow party ends. However, the suffering, as we read—and again the noble Lord, Lord Blease, has mentioned this—in many parts of the Province is still considerable. It seems somewhat cynical that those over here with job security and good conditions should strike when others have not even humble work with which to occupy their hands.
My own family will in the next few years be leaving school and university and I just hope that they will not be confronted by the dismal prospect of unemployment, with all the loss of confidence and lowering of morale that that can bring. But at least they live in an atmosphere that is little influenced by the terrorist, with the temptation of excitment that he can offer to idle hands. We cannot afford not to invest in the future and the rising generation. I know that the Government accept this. History will judge whether they did enough.
I was particularly struck, in the debate on this order in the other place, by a reference to the problems of remoteness for the farming community and the insufficient support in general being given to agriculture. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, will have personal experience in this field, but I submit that a swingeing increase in the price of petrol is hardly likely to help. And is it really keeping a sense of proportion to invest in the De Lorean car plant to the value of, I believe, £32,000 for every job provided?
I would end by questioning whether people are entitled to call themselves "loyalists" when they react to the authority of Westminster as they have

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done recently. There is, alas! no magic wand to put matters right in the Province, but there is some encouragement to be drawn from an article in the Economist of 10th January, which said that a sense of proportion was returning and that people in Northern Ireland were now more worried about the state of the economy than about protests in the Maze Prison. I believe that that is progress, even if the economic situation is still critical. I believe that it is most important to be optimistic.
8.32 p.m.
Lord Moyola: My Lords, I should like to start by offering my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, on his succession to the Department of Agriculture, which has given many of us great pleasure. We wish him well there and hope that he will have a profitable and enjoyable time. I would add, as an afterthought, that I hope the farmers of Northern Ireland will also have a profitable and enjoyable time during his term of office there.
It is the farming side to which I should mainly like to address my remarks tonight. I want to say to him, if he does not know it already, as I am sure he does, that in Northern Ireland farming is in a very serious situation indeed and something urgently needs to be done to help. I know there have been over recent weeks discussions between the Secretary of State and the Farmers' Union. The first question I should like to put to him is: is there any hope that the outcome of those discussions will soon be announced? Even if there were no details available, if a promise was there and the intention to help, it would do an enormous amount of good.
The noble Lord knows the difficulties only too well and therefore I shall not labour them in any great detail. The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, has already touched upon the subject which I think is the important one at this moment: that is the problem of remoteness. I feel that, because of our remoteness, the present agricultural system works unfairly. It works unfairly simply because of the strip of water which divides us from the mainland and because that strip of water turns us into a small and somewhat isolated community.
If we look at the more important commodities, I would hope to be able to demonstrate this point. To take milk as one example—it is probably not the worst or the most difficult of farming problems in Northern Ireland, although it is difficult enough—milk for manufacturing commands a bad price throughout the United Kingdom and the Government, in order to help farmers, subsidise the liquid market. Whether success can be achieved depends on where the bulk of the milk goes: does it go to manufacture or into liquid? In England about 50 per cent. goes to the liquid market, but unfortunately in Northern Ireland the figure is only 20 per cent.
I will not attempt to go into details as to how the end product is arrived at because I should certainly get confused if I tried and I should confuse the House even more; but the fact is that the English farmer is benefiting to the tune of something around 10p per gallon as a result of this particular subsidy, whereas the Northern Ireland farmer is benefiting only to the tune of 4p. So that is a substantial difference, and on top
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of it, of course, the Northern Ireland farmer has the extra cost of fertiliser, feedingstuffs and so on.
Turning to feedingstuffs, in Northern Ireland, we produce only about 20 per cent. of what we need. The rest has to be imported through the United Kingdom and bear the extra cost of transport across the Irish Sea: something between £12 and £15 per tonne. It has to be remembered, too, that because we are a small community and therefore cannot consume anything like what our farmers produce, a large portion of the farmers' produce has to go out across the Irish Sea again and incur more transport costs. So, while theoretically we are on the same basis as Britain, I think it must be plain that we are enormously handicapped by that strip of water and, so far as feeding-stuffs are concerned, we need a minimum of £12 per tonne of help in order to put our farmers on equal terms as regards profit or farmers' incomes.
Take beef: the returns are bad. They are bad everywhere but I think they are particularly bad in Northern Ireland. I may be wrong but I personally blame it on the fact that the breeding herd has been reduced in numbers; it is down by something like 30 per cent. in the last five years. That is probably due to the abolition of the calf subsidy and the breeding herd subsidy. As a result of that, there are fewer stores on the market and therefore they are more expensive to buy and, when the animal is finished, the farmer simply does not make as much profit. But again, without going into the sums, I am told that if we farmers in Northern Ireland had been farming in Great Britain during the last year, the overall return for farmers on an equivalent number of cattle would in fact have been an extra £12 million. That is fine, my Lords, but I say that the system is operating unfairly and we need in Northern Ireland some special form of help.
Years ago there used to be a grant known as the "remoteness grant" and that used to help to compensate for the strip of water. If I remember rightly, certainly in the time when I was in the Minister's shoes, it ran at about £3 million or £3,500,000 a year. The bill which would now be incurred, if it were based on the difference between farmers' returns for comparable quantities as between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, would be £12 million for beef, £15 million for milk and £15 million for feedingstuffs, making a total of £42 million in all, which is a sad reflection on inflation over the years. But the point is that our problem was recognised in those days. I would not say that the remoteness grant, as such, was always used to cover the specific problem of transport costs, but it was always of great benefit to farmers and I simply would like to remind the Minister that the Irish Sea has not dried up in the period in between. I hope that he will find some means of correcting this particular imbalance.
The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, touched very slightly on the political scene, and I hope it will be in order for me to say something very briefly about it. The main issue in Northern Ireland, at the moment, is the Dublin Summit of last December, and I do not exaggerate when I say that very many people have been worried about what took place then. A badly worded communiqué—and I make no bones about it—came out. It was a communiqué which could have been read in whatever way you wished, according to your

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political views. The Summit seemed to be surrounded by an air of secrecy, which made everybody suspicious, and, of course, by the time that the participants had put their own political gloss upon the whole thing, everybody in Northern Ireland was thoroughly confused.
Following on from that, I should simply like to say that many of us were enormously glad and grateful for the Prime Minister's visit last week, and for the reassurance which she gave that we in Northern Ireland were not about to be cast adrift. Of course, there are a lot of people whom those reassurances will not sway, but it should be said that, while many people in Northern Ireland would do a great deal to stay part of the United Kingdom, they do not relish the recent happenings under the guise of countering some kind of suspected sell-out—and I hope an imaginary, suspected sell-out—in Dublin.
Those same people know full well that, whether we have to leave the United Kingdom or stay, depends upon keeping the goodwill of our friends over here and, above all, the goodwill of people in your Lordships' House and in another place. They know perfectly well that the goings-on that we witnessed in recent weeks are losing us friends here, and losing us the support and goodwill which we have had in such abundance over the past troublous years. Because we want to keep our friends, I should say that many of us regret very much the happenings of the last few weeks, done on the pretext of protecting Ulster.
8.43 p.m.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their reception, or for a great part of their reception, of the order which I have moved for Northern Ireland. Your Lordships were kind enough to give me some warning of many points, but many others have come to me out of something resembling a clear sky, and your Lordships will, I hope, be patient with me if, occasionally, I hesitate and shuffle my papers.
The noble Lord, Lord Blease, made some interesting comments at the opening of his remarks about the way in which matters such as these are handled, and he is not happy with the way in which this is done. I think I might say, by way of an introduction to what I have to say, that it is because we have direct rule that the order which your Lordships are now discussing is available for your Lordships to discuss at all. Your Lordships will be aware that, for the rest of the United Kingdom, money is provided by Bills and not by orders and your Lordships cannot touch a Money Bill. So, to that extent, the Province has an advantage over the rest of the United Kingdom, at least as regards this House. The noble Lord may think that it is a tenuous advantage, but it is one which it is open to him to improve and make more valuable, and with great regularity he succeeds in doing so by his constructive and, sometimes, critical remarks.
The setting up of a Select Committee for Northern Ireland is not really a matter for this House, nor indeed for me. But it is a suggestion which I do not doubt will be noted in the places where it is proper that it should be considered. I should also say to him, and, indeed, to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, that the subject of the present debate is not the Budget for the financial year
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1981–82, which they spoke of with such vigour. It is the appropriation order to round off the financial year 1980–81 and to make provision, in no way proportionately related to next year's Budget, for that period of the next financial year which will have to elapse before the guidelines set down by the Budget can be implemented in the main Estimates which will be debated, as I said, in this House somewhere around the beginning of July. Therefore, if I appear to duck some of the issues which have been raised, it is simply because this is not the time to reply to them.
Arising out of that, I should also emphasise what I said in my introductory remarks, that many of the reductions which figure in this appropriation order are, in fact, the numerical expression of those reductions which were introduced by, described and, in the appropriate debate, discussed in the Appropriation (No. 3) (Northern Ireland) Order which we discussed before Christmas. I know that this is confusing. I find parliamentary financial proceedings confusing in the extreme, in any case; more so than private financial transactions.
But the fact is that the accounting procedures of Parliament did not permit the inclusion in the Commons' figures of the consequences of a number of the decisions which were expressed in the Appropriation (No. 3) Order. That will have to be my reply to one or two things about which the noble Lord expressed a resentment, which would be more understandable if what we were doing was a further round of reductions beyond those to which he reacted with such clarity on the last occasion when we debated appropriation in this House.
The noble Lord, Lord Blease, drew our attention to a number of matters related to training and unemployment. I would draw his attention, if it has not already received it, to a new scheme entitled Action for Community Employment which is being funded from additional monies made available by Government towards special employment measures and which will commence on 1st April this year. The scheme will have the same objectives and be broadly similar to the community enterprise programme in Great Britain and, like it, will focus on the longer-term unemployed. It is estimated that 450 jobs will be created in 1981–82 under the ACE, at a cost of £1·7 million.
The noble Lord then referred to the reduction of £412,000 in the provision for Enterprise Ulster resulting from reduced activity, and also from a concerted effort by officials in that enterprise to reduce plant and material costs. This is a measure not only of a reduction of activity, but of greater efficiency, so that the reduction in activity is not commensurate with the reduction of money. The reduced allocation for Enterprise Ulster in the coming year, which has resulted in the announcement of some redundancies in the organisation, has been made in the light of Government policy to give high priority in public expenditure to promoting investment in viable employment in the private sector, thus strengthening the economic base.
I can sympathise when the noble Lord says that to anyone who is unemployed it does not matter whether a new job which occurs is a nationalised or a private sector job. It is our experience that the potential for growth and vigour at an early stage in the private sector is very much greater, partly because it depends

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on so much smaller units than nationalised enterprises, and I believe that the emphasis of Her Majesty's Government's policy is the right one. After redundancies of just over 3,500 employees on 1st April this year, the average number of Enterprise Ulster employees is expected to be 1,150 during the 1981–82 financial year. The noble Lord will appreciate that it is not possible to shelter Enterprise Ulster from the whole of Government measures to promote productive employment, particularly their support for industrial investment to strengthen the Province's industrial base. The additional sum of £9·4 million made available for special employment measures in 1981–82 has been earmarked for the continuation of job maintenance and support schemes, temporary short-time working, and job release, expansion of the Youth Opportunities Programme and a new scheme, to which I have already referred, targeted specifically towards adult long-term unemployment.
The total of 7,000 youth opportunities places is to be increased to 10,000. It is hoped that up to 350 additional Youth Opportunity Programme places will be provided in 1981–82 by Enterprise Ulster, for which additional monies will be paid as part of the programme.
In response to a request from the Government, Enterprise Ulster will endeavour to reduce the average cost of each job in their organisation from the present figure, which exceeds £7,000. This can be achieved by concentrating upon more labour intensive projects. Depending upon the extent of this reduction, my honourable friend the Minister for the Department of Manpower Services may examine, with the organisation, towards the end of the year the scope for Enterprise Ulster to participate in action for community employment.
I will probably write to the noble Lord in expansion of Enterprise Ulster and move on now to note his stricture that most of the measures noted in the appropriation order are remedial. Indeed they are. I repeat that the function of an appropriation order is in itself remedial. It is to adjust existing programmes to the targets and the target costs which are expected to be achieved when the main estimates are submitted and to correct any errors of judgment as to what the final demand in a particular programme will be, not merely in response to policy changes but also in response to cost. The uptake, for instance, of non-cash-limited services has to be met from the monies voted at this time.
I note the per capita comparison which the noble Lord made for the Arts, for which I am responsible. I suppose that this is the time to acknowledge what all noble Lords who will speak in the House on this subject always say: that things are worse, generally speaking, economically in the Province than they are in the rest of the United Kingdom. We have exceedingly high rates of unemployment, though not so much higher than in some other parts of Great Britain as would seem to be the case if one made the comparison only with the average for the whole of the United Kingdom, which is a common comparison. We have to respond to that. We have responded to it by very much higher per capita payments from public funds to the Province as a whole which even exceed the greater need, by some measurements, by a small amount. We have to do other things to speed our recovery. That
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means taking money from the non-economic—the social and educational—programmes and putting it into economic programmes. It is a hard decision but it is one which had to be done.
I will deal with the noble Lord's points on agriculture when I come in a moment to the remarks made by my noble and very friendly friend Lord Moyola. I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Blease, was able to conclude by making friendly remarks about the cheap summer coal scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, referred to the question of electricity costs which are a matter of great concern throughout the United Kingdom, and perhaps of greater concern in the Province because there the cost is higher. May I remind him of the undertaking which was very recently given by the Prime Minister in the Province. She said that the Government accept that these tariffs are an unreasonable burden upon the Northern Ireland community and that they are a real obstacle to economic development and that the Government have been examining the best way of tackling the problem. She said that we have decided to bring Northern Ireland electricity tariffs more closely into line with those in England and Wales and to keep them there. The tariff increases due on 1st April will be reviewed in the light of this decision. I cannot say what the outcome of that review will be but it is clear what its intention is, and it seems to me to be one of the most heartening things which the Province has heard for some time.
The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, together with the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, whose benign face looks down upon my desk and is looked at with emotions which change according to what he last said to me when I was in this House, was kind enough to congratulate me upon my appointment to his seat. I am very glad to sit in it even if, as he put it, I am wearing his shoes. Both noble Lords referred to the geographical disadvantages placed upon the Province because of the expense of getting across the water. People tend to forget that not only does it cost around £12 per tonne to bring in raw material but that it also costs around £12 per tonne to take out the finished product. This is at all times a disadvantage when we are dealing with our closest large market. At a time when the punt is as weak as it now is—the noble Lord did not say this—of course it is a greater disadvantage because there is a greater pressure to sell in Great Britain and a greater obstacle to sales in the rest of the Province. That is not so simple as it sounds, because of the operation of the Monetary Compensatory Amounts. I have to say that I am very well seized not only of this but of many other disadvantages under which the Northern Ireland farmer—whether he be a small or a large farmer, whether he is in milk, or beef, or pigs or poultry, whether he is on the hills or in the valleys—is operating. It is a very difficult situation to be in. I have already made it my business to visit a fair number of farms and to meet a considerable number of farmers. It is a process that I shall continue with pleasure, though it leads me to meet constantly people who are most anxious to have some sort of succour.
The noble Lord, Lord Moyola, referred to the remoteness grant. This is a blanket grant of a type not favoured by the Common Market. I wonder whether a blanket grant is exactly what we want. It is no good ignoring for ever the fact that circumstances

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are different in different parts of the world and that one ought to tailor the industry to fit what the land will support and what the climate makes to thrive. In other words, simply to give equal encouragement to everything produced in an area is not the way to solve a long term problem. There are other ways to do it. The less favoured area schemes are already in operation in the Province and generate a considerable amount of budgetary support for the people who are farming within them. Indeed, we are at present preparing an approach to the Common Market to get those areas extended. This would be welcomed.
The noble Lord, Lord Moyola, did no more than express in very muted fashion the very real difficulties and concerns of the farming community in Northern Ireland, which he knows far better than ever I shall. I have to reassure him by saying that not only I but the Secretary of State are very well seized of these difficulties and have them under very close and urgent scrutiny. The fact that we have not yet been able to make an announcement should not in any way colour the expectations of the industry or of the noble Lord as to the outcome of those considerations. He will understand that, while I accept absolutely the desire for an early reply—and that reply will be given as early as it is possible for us to give it—it would be entirely wrong for me to give any indication of its contents at this stage. It would be difficult to find phrases sufficiently neutral to prevent their meaning being, as it were, invested with wildly exaggerated properties. I assure him and the industry on this occasion that the Government do realise what is going on and do realise the difficulties. They wish to assist and they are considering as urgently as may be what that assistance can be.
Both the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, and certainly the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, adverted to political matters. Of course this is in fact a debate on financial matters but I am very glad that the visit of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to the Province and the forthright phrases which she there uttered on the whole question of the status of the Province have registered. People realise that she means what she says and that, when she speaks, she speaks the truth. If your Lordships could have seen—and the noble Lord, Lord Moyola, and possibly the noble Lord, Lord Blease, did see—the astonishingly wet and windy weather in which the Prime Minister arrived at her gathering and the calmness and aplomb with which she addressed it, I think they would have realised that this was entirely symbolic of the lady who leads this country. I have the greatest confidence in her approach to this issue. I believe that those who feel, or have felt, themselves at risk, should take comfort from her sterling qualities. That is as much as I think I should say on political matters in a debate on finance. If I have omitted any points I shall write to noble Lords.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Local Government, Planning and Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1981
9.1 p.m.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I beg to move that the
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Local Government Planning and Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, a draft of which was laid before the House on 29th January 1981, be approved. The draft order contains proposals corresponding to some of the provisions in the Local Government Planning and Land Act 1980. Because of the different system of central and local administration in Northern Ireland very few of the proposals are of relevance to Northern Ireland. The provisions in the order corresponding to those in the Great Britain Act relate to rating valuation and planning matters and to new town land disposal. There is also a provision which seeks to increase maximum fines for certain planning offences and a provision which would confer functions on Belfast City Council in relation to two industrial estates in that city.
I now propose to outline briefly the matters with which the order deals. Presently in Northern Ireland the amount of rates recoverable pending determination of an application for revision of a new valuation list and any subsequent appeal is limited to the amount last levied plus half the difference between that amount and the amount of the new charge. Article 3 will confer power on the Department of Finance to vary the amount by order, thus making it possible to reduce the considerable sums left outstanding during lengthy appeal procedures.
Allowances to owners who are obliged to pay rates on property occupied by others, or who do so by agreement, are presently fixed by statute. Article 4 confers power on the Department of Finance to vary the percentage allowances by order as a means of recognising the role played by such owners in collecting the rates.
The application of domestic rate relief to private garages and private storage premises which are physically separate from dwellings and form separate hereditaments does not presently apply in Northern Ireland. Article 5 extends domestic rate relief to such hereditaments. The statutory right to pay rates by instalments is presently in Northern Ireland restricted to occupiers of dwelling-houses. Article 6 will extend that right to non-domestic ratepayers whose property has a rateable value between lower and upper limits to be prescribed by order and will give statutory force to some administrative arrangements already in use.
Article 7 will enable the Department of Finance to prescribe by order a reference date to which values assessed in future general revaluations will relate. It will also confer power to prescribe in relation to specified or unspecified classes of property the methods by which net annual values are to be arrived at. This could relieve the Valuation Office of much oppressive and, of course, expensive fieldwork.
Article 8 will relieve the Commissioner of Valuation of the obligation under current legislation to publish a new valuation list every five years and will instead give power to have general revaluations at dates to be prescribed by order.
Article 9 provides that occupiers of fish farms shall be exempt from liability to pay rates, on the same general basis as occupiers of agricultural land. Existing legislation does not recognise the importance of this new and growing industry.

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The order also contains some planning provisions. Article 10 gives the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland the same powers to make regulations to prescribe planning fees as have been provided for Great Britain under the Local Government Planning and Land Act 1980. The fees are intended to meet part of the cost of the development control system to help reduce spending from the public purse. A consultation paper has been issued proposing a scale of fees for Northern Ireland in line with the charges for England set out in regulations now laid before Parliament. Fees will be charged for applications for planning permission and for consent to display advertisements. The new charges will not apply to appeals or to applications for listed building consent. Article 11 increases the maximum fine for certain planning offences to give parity with similar increases in Great Britain made by the Criminal Law Act 1977.
Provisions relating to disposal of land in Northern Ireland's new town areas of Antrim, Ballymena, Craigavon and Londonderry and contained in Article 12 will empower the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland to dispose of new town land for purposes other than the development of the new town. Presently power of disposal is limited to purposes connected with the development of the new town and this precludes disposal of surplus new town land. The Crichel Down principles will be observed in all such cases.
Finally, Article 13 would confirm Belfast City Council as the owner of lands which at 1st October 1973 comprised the Balmoral and Duncrue Street Industrial Estate in Belfast. It would also confer on the City Council the power to develop and manage these lands for industrial purposes and also to manage an area of land adjacent to Balmoral Industrial Estate acquired in 1974. These industrial areas have been controlled and operated by the City Council since local government reorganisation in October 1973. This provision is required to remove doubt about the authority of the City Council to develop and manage these estates which were acquired under a variety of powers. It is not intended to extend these powers to other district councils. I commend the draft order to your Lordships and I beg, to move.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on the 29th January be approved.—(Lord Elton).
Lord Blease: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his very full explanation of this complex and detailed order. The Minister has gone into considerable detail in respect of the order and, as I understand it, it is designed to bring the situation in Northern Ireland into line with the position in England and Wales. There is only one matter I should like to ask the Minister to clarify for me. It is on page 6 of the order, paragraph 10,
"Fees for planning applications
105A.—The Department may by regulations make such provision as it thinks fit for the payment of a fee of the prescribed amount in respect of"
applications and appeals. Honestly, I think that that is putting a lot of power into the hands of a department. I feel that there ought to be some provision in respect of regulating the fees by some form of order before both Houses.
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Also I should like to ask the Minister, in respect of the planning appeal, who or what constitutes the Planning Appeals Commission. Is it outside the department or is it a separate judicial body that may be impartial in such appeals? I feel that a commission set up by the department would not be the correct body before which such an appeal should be heard. Perhaps the Minister may satisfy my reservation on those two questions. With that I would agree that the order should be approved.
Lord Elton: My Lords, perhaps I should apologise for being so extensive in my introduction of the order. It is very difficult to know which bits noble Lords want to look at particularly. I did notice that it took me only four minutes; I see that I am already debited with two minutes of the noble Lord's speech, so I shall run over time again.
As to the question of the charging of fees, may I say first of all that anyone proposing to carry out development can at the outset submit an application for a determination under Article 30 of the Planning (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 as to whether planning permission is in fact necessary, and that there will be no charge for that type of application. As to how much charges will be—and the point the noble Lord is more interested in, as to how it is arrived at—my honourable friend whose responsibility it is hopes to publish a consultation paper in the near future proposing a scale of planning fees for Northern Ireland. The fees will be in line with those prescribed for England in the regulations laid before the House on 17th February this year. Some of the fees are on a sliding scale subject to a maximum charge, while others are at a flat rate. Outline planning permission for buildings would cost £40 for each one-tenth of a hectare, or just under a quarter of an acre, subject to a maximum of £1,000. Applications for full planning permission or approval of reserved matters, detailed plans for buildings, would be charged at £40 for each new dwelling-house, or in the case of commercial or industrial buildings £40 for each 75 square metres of floor-space, subject to a maximum of £2,000.
As to improvements to private owner occupier property, a consultation paper was recently published setting out proposals to allow householders to extend their homes without planning permission by 15 per cent. or up to 70 cubic metres whichever is the greater; it is very difficult to visualise. If these proposals are implemented, there will be no fee for most house extensions because planning permission would not be needed. If someone wants to extend his house by more than 15 per cent., then where house extensions requiring planning permission are concerned a flat rate charge of £20 is proposed. Nowadays extending a house by over 15 per cent. would cost several thousand pounds and would of course increase the value of the property very considerably. In this context, a planning fee of £20 is perhaps not so significant.
I hope I have said enough to set the noble Lord's mind at rest on this matter, or at least to let him know what it is that he has to be worried about. As to the matter of the location of the appeal, I think I would be well advised to write to the noble Lord, which I will do shortly.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lloyds Bank Bill
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
Animal Health Bill [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee with an amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
Statute Law (Repeals) Bill [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.
  BLINDNESS SIMULATION EXPERIMENTS
  BLINDNESS SIMULATION EXPERIMENTS
  NEPAL: CHILD EMPLOYMENT ON UN PROJECT
  NEPAL: CHILD EMPLOYMENT ON UN PROJECT
  CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS: PRICE INDEX
  CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS: PRICE INDEX