Sitting of 23 June 1981

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRITISH RAILWAYS (PENSION SCHEMES) BILL
  Lords Amendment agreed to.
  British Railways (No. 2) Bill (By Order)
  Considered; to be read the Third time.
  United Reformed Church Bill [Lords]
    Great Yarmouth Borough Council Bill [Lords]
      Greater London Council (Money) Bill (By Order)
      Read a Second time and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Oral Answers to Questions
    DEFENCE

      Armed Forces (Strength)
      Mr. Ron Brownasked the Secretary of State for Defence what is the current total strength of the Armed Forces.
      The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Peter Blaker): The total strength of the Armed Forces on 30 April 1981 was 333,521, excluding locally entered personnel and reserves.
      Mr. Brown: That is a large number of men and women engaged directly in the Armed Forces, no doubt due to Government policies. As the Government believe that Tory freedom works, should not that freedom also work for the men and women in the Armed Forces so that they have the right to join a trade union? Should not that suggestion be considered? Is not that right one of the essences of freedom for working people in Britain? Should it not be extended to the Armed Forces, and is not that reform overdue?
      Mr. Blaker: That is an old subject, to which the hon. Gentleman knows the answer well. No doubt when he visited Afghanistan he asked the Soviet forces there whether they had the right to join a trade union.
      Mr. Buck: Is my hon. Friend aware that the figure he gave in his answer is satisfactory? Will he confirm that
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      recruiting is going well? Will he also accept the congratulations of the House on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box in his new role in the defence sphere?
      Mr. Blaker: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for the latter part of his remarks. I confirm that recruiting is going well, and that retention is going especially well. The strength of the Armed Forces is 20,000 above that in April 1979.
      Mr. Cryer: Is the Minister concerned about the allegations recently published by my constituent Gunner Andrew Day concerning barrack-room bullies in the Army in Western Germany? The hon. Gentleman received a letter of complaint from me more than a week ago. What does he intend to do about the allegations? Will he undertake a full and thorough investigation and ensure that Gunner Day is not returned to the unit in Western Germany pending that investigation?
      Mr. Blaker: That case is being fully investigated and a reply will be sent to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.
      Mr. Arthur Davidson: Is the Minister satisfied that there is no legal validity in the argument appearing in the "State Research Bulletin", to the effect that
      "The British Army has been living and working in conditions of illegality for more than 25 years."
      Will he confirm that the five-yearly Armed Forces Acts, the yearly Order in Council and the Appropriation Acts provide proper parliamentary approval and a proper legal basis for the Army's existence?
      Mr. Blaker: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for raising that point. It is one of the more bizarre allegations that I have seen in recent years. I confirm what he said.

      Defence Review
      Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether any changes in the United Kingdom NATO roles are envisaged in his defence review.
      Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he is taking to match United Kingdom deterrent capability to the level of external threat.
      Mr. Lathamasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the progress of his review of future defence commitments arid resources.
      The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. John Nott): The Government attach overriding priority to the improvement of the nation's defences within the framework of our present NATO roles. We have been reviewing our forward programme to see whether we can further enhance our front-line capability within the rising defence budget. If I can catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I hope to make a statement on this subject this Thursday.
      Mr. Miller: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that there will be no change in our NATO roles? If it is necessary to change them, will he give an assurance that the discussion in the review will proceed on the basis of deciding on the role and subsequently on the appropriate level of forces to meet it?
      Mr. Nott: There are no proposals to change the roles that we perform in NATO. As I have said many times before, we are considering how we can most effectively perform each of those roles within a rising defence budget.
      Mr. Adley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most of my constituents accept and, indeed, insist that the Government provide adequate deterrent defence for the United Kingdom, although sometimes their experience is not quite so up to date as it might be? Will my right hon. Friend reassure them that the Government retain a total commitment to adequate defence? Secondly, will he reassure them about his judgment, and that of his colleagues, in the light of the need for such a commitment and in the light of the decisions that he will be taking in the defence review?
      Mr. Nott: I ask my hon. Friend to await my statement on Thursday. However, he can assure his constituents that I am just as keen on maintaining the deterrent of our forces in this country as are his constituents.
      Mr. Latham: If on Thursday my right hon. Friend gives any indication of a change in British commitments towards NATO, whether land, sea or air, will he indicate which nation he expects to take over our commitments and whether it has accepted that obligation?
      Mr. Nott: I have already said that we perform a number of roles within a NATO context. We have been examining ways in which we can perform those roles more effectively. I have never said that we shall withdraw from any of our NATO commitments. This is one of the many hypotheses and speculations that I have read in the newspapers.
      Mr. McNamara: When the right hon. Gentleman is discussing, with the Americans and others, the nuclear deterrent, whether strategic or tactical, will he draw to their attention that when the next Labour Government are formed they will have neither a strategic nor a tactical deterrent? What effect will that have on our defence?
      Mr. Nott: Labour Governments tend to behave rather differently when they achieve power compared to the announcements that Labour Oppositions make while seeking it. I do not think that this matter is likely to be tested in the foreseeable future. However, if it were to be, I rather doubt whether the outcome would be as the hon. Gentleman suggests.
      Sir Patrick Wall: As 70 per cent. of the escort forces in the Eastern Atlantic area are provided by the Royal Navy, would not any cuts in the strength of the Royal Navy's escort forces totally unbalance the entire NATO defences? What did the Americans have to say about this when my right hon. Friend was in Washington?
      Mr. Nott: I followed my hon. Friend around in Washington over the weekend. From all reports my hon. Friend was being most helpful in Washington. There are many different ways of performing our crucial role in the Eastern Atlantic. As my hon. Friend says, a substantial escort force is an important part of the overall responsibility. I must ask my hon. Friend to await my statement on Thursday.
      Mr. John: As any statement that the right hon. Gentleman makes will obviously have an Alliance context, will he be rather more forthcoming than the
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      "sympathetic understanding" formula about his consultations with the Alliance in his statement? Secondly, does the statement of his hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd), to the Western European Union that Britain envisages no withdrawal of troops from BAOR represent Government policy in the light of the review?
      Mr. Nott: That is not what my hon. Friend said to the Western European Union. The hon. Gentleman must await my statement. I am in the process of discussing some of our proposals with our allies. I hope to talk to the NATO Secretary-General later today. Any proposals that we might make will go through the normal consultation process.
      Mr. Lyell: Bearing in mind the large quantity of supplies that need to come across the Atlantic in the event of any approaching conflict, or immediately approaching conflict, what proportion of the escort and protective duties on the voyage across the Atlantic will be provided by the Royal Navy?
      Mr. Nott: The problem with this subject is that there are many who see the protection of convoys rather in the way that it might have occurred in 1940. Sea reinforcements are critical to sustaining a war in Europe. The way in which they would come across from the United States would be very different from the way in which they came across in the last war. I cannot be drawn too far on this subject. The concept of "convoys" as normally expressed is not quite the way in which it will happen next time round.
      Mr. Duffy: There will be no difference in the transportation of materials across the Atlantic. I note that the Secretary of State nods in agreement. Will he bear in mind the concern expressed by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Lyell) and his hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Sir P. Wall)? Throughout the Alliance there is concern about the number of escort vessels that Britain may be able to contribute in future given the rumours about the right hon. Gentleman's intended cuts. There will be concern on the Opposition Benches—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has had a fair crack of the whip.
      Mr. Duffy: I had almost finished, Mr. Speaker.
      Mr. Speaker: I ask the hon. Gentleman to complete his supplementary question as quickly as is humanly possible.
      Mr. Duffy: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be concern on the Opposition Benches that if his new mix does not come off he will be lowering the nuclear threshold?
      Mr. Nott: I am not surprised that there is concern in every part of the House. Some of the reports that have appeared in the press have been enough to concern even the calmest person. The hon. Gentleman must await my statement.

      Northern Ireland
      Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Defence what has been the total cost to his Department of operations in Northern Ireland since 1969.
      The Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Philip Goodhart): Accurate information on this subject is not avilable. Departmental records have been kept on an extra cost, not a total cost basis, and the extra cost figure is approximately £600 million. On 26 February I wrote to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery), explaining some of the problems involved in determining total cost figures for the Armed Forces in any part of the United Kingdom and suggested that the most reasonable estimate of the total cost of the armed forces in Northern Ireland in 1980–81 could be £250 million. Perhaps the most reasonable estimate of the figure that the hon. Gentleman asks for—again surrounded by caveats and disclaimers—is 12 times £250 million at current prices.
      Mr. Canavan: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the growing public concern about the hundred of millions of pounds of public money that is being spent on a military operation that has now lasted longer than both world wars put together and which has failed to achieve its objective? Bearing in mind that thousands have been killed or injured since 1969, is not it clear that there cannot be a purely military solution to the problem of Northern Ireland? Will the Government consider a phased withdrawal of troops combined with the necessary political initiatives designed to bring about a peaceful reunification of the whole of Ireland?
      Mr. Goodhart: No one has ever suggested that there could conceivably be a completely military solution to the problems of Northern Ireland. In the past 12 years there has been a growing recognition that the Armed Forces have played a magnificent role in upholding law and order and that, if they were to be withdrawn, that would be a calamity for both communities in Northern Ireland.
      Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Has any effort been made to assess the extra costs which would have been incurred if the same force had been stationed in another theatre? Would not such extra costs have been substantial if, for example, those forces had been on the Continent?
      Mr. Goodhart: That is true. The cost probably would have been in excess of the £600 million extra cost since 1969.
      Sir John Biggs-Davison: Has any estimate been made of the cost in blood and treasure if Her Majesty's forces had not been there to assist the civil power?
      Mr. Goodhart: I have no doubt that at times there would have a been a civil war and the cost of that would have been incalculable.
      Mr. Wellbeloved: Does not the Minister agree that no cost evaluation can be put on the lives of British soldiers who have been murdered by the IRA and that the least we can do in the House is honour their sacrifice by ensuring that none of the murderers of those soldiers can succeed in seeking to gain election to the House of Commons?
      Mr. Goodhart: I wholly agree with the hon. Gentleman. I might almost call him my hon. Friend.
      Mr. Kilfedder: Does not the Minister agree that it would be in the interests of the Iron Curtain countries for the Provisional IRA to succeed in creating terrorism and destruction, and failure of law and order in part of the United Kingdom. and that the forces of the Crown are to
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      be congratulated on preventing the IRA from succeeding? Is it not in the interests of all NATO countries to prevent the IRA from succeeding?
      Mr. Goodhart: I join in those congratulations. I am sure that the overwhelming majority of the House does so, to.

      Naval Shipbuilding Programme
      Mr. R. C. Mitchellasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will now make a statement about the future naval shipbuilding programme.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Geoffrey Pattie): The size and shape of the future naval shipbuilding programme remain under consideration as part of the wide-ranging examination of the defence programme, currently under way. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence will make a statement on Thursday.
      Mr. Mitchell: Is the Minister aware that, apart from the purely defence aspects, which we can discuss on Thursday, naval shipbuilding provides thousands of jobs in my constituency in Vosper Thorneycroft, in Yarrow and in other places and that any major cutback would have a serious effect on employment? Will the Minister take this opportunity to deny the ugly rumour that is circulating in my area that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to close the Royal dockyard at Portsmouth?
      Mr. Pattie: Any rumours must await my right hon. Friend's statement on Thursday. All the considerations mentioned by the hon. Gentleman are being taken into account.
      Mr. Alan Clark: Will my hon. Friend assure the House that, whatever he does to the shipbuilding programme, he will do nothing to affect shipbuilding and repairing capacity? In particular, can he confirm the key importance of the Devonport dockyard in an uncertain world where it is impossible to protect the future?
      Mr. Pattie: Much as I would like to respond to my hon. Friend's request for confirmation, he and other hon. Members will probably have to wait for my right hon. Friend's statements on Thursday.
      Mr. Stephen Ross: Will the Minister assure us that there will be adequate orders for the warship yards in the United Kingdom so that employment is maintained at least at its current level, even if those ships are not the types of ship which are being built now?
      Mr. Pattie: Considerable importance is to be attached to the gaining of export orders, which I know the hon. Gentleman would support. That is another consideration which is being borne in mind.
      Mr. George Robertson: We welcome the Minister, who was formerly responsible for the Royal Air Force, to his brand new portfolio in charge of the Royal Navy. He must be conscious of the reliance on naval ordering in the shipyards. When the decision is being taken this week, on which we expect an announcement, will the Minister bear in mind that the dithering that has characterised the Government's naval ordering policy over the last two years has already lost a considerable amount of our shipbuilding capacity? Can we be assured that the

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      obsession with the Trident missile system will not further compromise the whole British shipbuilding industry and its reliance on naval ordering?
      Mr. Pattie: There is no question of being obsessional about the Trident missile system. The hon. Gentleman's remarks will be noted in the appropriate quarter and all his comments will be taken into account.
      Mr. Speaker: Question No. 5—
      Mr. James A. Dunn: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it now to be the practice that when any Secretary of State gives advance notice of a statement that he will make to the House, that will preclude any questions during the normal Question Time—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. I realise that the hon. Member was not called, but there were four supplementaries on one question.

      Long Range Theatre Nuclear Forces
      Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Defence what is the status of the British representative of NATO's special consultative group on long range theatre nuclear forces.
      Mr. Blaker: The United Kingdom's representation at meetings of the special consultative group is headed by a senior Foreign Office official with support from the Ministry of Defence. This group is charged with supporting the United States efforts to negotiate limitations on long-range theatre nuclear forces; it reports to NATO Foreign and Defence Ministers at their bi-annual meetings.
      Mr. McNair-Wilson: Can my hon. Friend say whether the group's task is to draw up the negotiating position that will be taken up in any conversations between the United States and the Soviet Union about the possibility of theatre nuclear arms limitation?
      Mr. Blaker: That is putting it rather too precisely. The purpose is to consult the United States and to offer to it guidance from the other members of the group, which includes all the members of the Alliance apart from France. Ultimately, the negotiations will take place between the United States and the Soviet Union.
      Mr. David Clark: Does the Minister realise that there has been grave disappointment in the United Kingdom that Her Majesty's Government have lagged so far behind our European allies, especially Western Germany, in pressing those disarmament talks? I realise that the issues are complicated. Will the Government be prepared to consider publishing a general discussion paper on the various forums of disarmament talks and giving a general statement on what the Government's positions are in those various forums?
      Mr. Blaker: I doubt whether the publication of a general discussion paper is necessary. Many forums are involved in negotiations for arms control, as the hon. Gentleman knows. He should pursue that matter with my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal. The United Kingdom has consistently taken the lead—that has been true under Governments of both Labour and Conservative complexions—in pursuing all sorts of forums and all efforts for arms control and disarmament.

      Royal Observer Corps (Annual Camp)
      Mr. Spriggsasked the Secretary of State for Defence why proficient disabled members of the Royal Observer Corps have recently been prohibited from attending the annual training camp of the Royal Observer Corps; and if he will reconsider this decision in order to mark the International Year of Disabled People.
      Mr. Goodhart: The medical and accommodation facilities at RAF West Raynham where the camp is held, are of limited capacity. Because of experiences during the Royal Observer Corps 1980 training camp when there was a high incidence of illness, including three cases of heart failure, one of which was fatal, the commandant decided to discourage attendance in need of regular medical attention. Since consideration of health and safety must be paramount, I see no reason to change his policy.
      Mr. Spriggs: Is the Minister aware that my constituents feel that the Defence Department is treating those people as if they were mentally deficient? Is he aware that many of those disabled people are highly able and proficient members of the corps? Will he take this opportunity, in the International Year of Disabled People, to reconsider the matter and at least give those people an opportunity of serving their country?
      Mr. Goodhart: Those people have an opportunity to serve their country, which they do well. However, their health and safety must be of paramount importance. I do not believe that it would be right for me to override the commandant of the corps on that point.

      Ulster Defence Regiment
      Sir John Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement about the activities of the Ulster Defence Regiment.
      Mr. Goodhart: The UDR assists the Regular Forces in providing support for the RUC. It now provides first call support to the police over most of the Province, patrolling rural and urban areas, guarding important sites and installations and manning vehicle check points. Elements from the regiment were also called upon recently to enhance security during the local government elections. The UDR has taken part this year in a number of ceremonial occasions in Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom. Sadly, the UDR continues to be the subject of terrorist attacks; this year seven UDR soldiers have been killed—five of them whilst off duty.
      Sir John Biggs-Davison: Was it not good to see the band of the Ulster Defence Regiment on Horse Guards Parade? Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the local knowledge of the UDR is being used, not only with the RUC, but by the Regular Army, through joint patrols and operations?
      Mr. Goodhart: I assure my hon. Friend that the local knowledge of the UDR is highly valued by the units of the Regular Army in Northern Ireland and by my headquarters.
      Mr. W. Benyon: In view of the large-scale unemployment in the Province, will my hon. Friend consider replacing progressively the Regular units of the British Army with locally raised personnel?
      Mr. Goodhart: As I am sure my hon. Friend knows, over the years there has been a reduction in the size of the

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      Regular Army in Northern Ireland. While there has been some increase in the strength of the full-time element of the UDR, there has also been a significant increase in the strength of the RUC.
      Mr. Molyneaux: Will the Minister examine the possibility of speeding up the processing of applications for enlistment into the Ulster Defence Regiment?
      Mr. Goodhart: I shall look at that matter again, but it is important to check to see that we get the best recruits.
      Mr. McNamara: Will the Minister consider publishing the review of the "Ulsterisation" of the security forces in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland, to see how effective that has been? In particular, will he draw the attention of the House and the country to the effort to get cross-community support for the security forces, and say what proportion of recruitment there has been?
      Mr. Goodhart: This subject has been touched on in many debates on Northern Ireland and on the Army in the course of the last few years, and I am sure that it will figure in the debates that are shortly to be held.

      Cruise Missiles
      Mr. Ernie Rossasked the Secretary of State for Defence what further representations he has had on stationing of cruise missiles in Great Britain.
      Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Defence how many representations he has received to date against permitting United States cruise missiles to be sited on British soil or in British waters.
      Mr. Nott: Since the NATO modernisation programme was agreed in December 1979, about 1,400 letters and 29 petitions have been received by my right hon. Friend the present Leader of the House and myself on the decision to base United States ground-launched cruise missiles in the United Kingdom; the vast majority of these have opposed the decision.
      Mr. Ross: In view of the large number of local authorities—71 in total—which have now taken a decision not to allow the stationing of the American missile in their areas, will the Government reconsider their support for this missile, which clearly—especially in view of the answer given from the Dispatch Box—does not have the support of the majority of the British people?
      Mr. Nott: I understand that there is strong feeling on the subject, but I think the hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that if we believed every person who signs a petition that comes to us as Members of this House we would perhaps look on the thing in a rather different way from the way in which we look at it. I accept that there is strong feeling on the subject, but the Government have announced their policy, and that is how it will remain.
      Mr. Allaun: Has the Secretary of State seen the recent public opinion polls, which show that a clear majority of the British people are opposed to the cruise missile? That is without mentioning Western Europe, where the same opposition applies. Has he further seen that three of our biggest unions, not notable for their Left-wing views, have voted against it in the last month? Finally, in view of the obvious vulnerability that it creates for our country, is there not one Conservative Member with some doubts on the subject?
      Mr. Nott: This country would be a prime and, in my view, an early target in any war that broke out in Europe. It would be such a target whether or not we had nuclear weapons stationed on our soil. The bringing of the cruise missile, the modernised long-range theatre nuclear system, will spread the weapons more equally round Europe, whereas at present all those nuclear weapons are stationed here, and were during the period of the Labour Government.
      I did not read the recent public opinion polls as the hon. Gentleman did. I read that a large majority of people in this country believed it necessary to retain deterrence, and to retain nuclear deterrence as well, but it was clear that many people did not understand that cruise and Trident were merely modernisations of our existing weapons system.
      Sir Frederic Bennett: Has my right hon. Friend taken some encouragement from the recent statement by the German Socialist Chancellor to the effect that he is determined to stand by the decision to station these weapons in Western Europe, and will even resign if his policy is renounced by his party? Does the Minister sometimes wish that the Labour Party would take some courage from Mr. Schmidt?
      Mr. Nott: Yes, I was greatly encouraged by the Chancellor's statement. We have to give a clear signal to the Soviet Union that European Governments and the United States Governments see the deterrence of aggression as a joint responsibility, and not as one that can be shuffled off on to the United States.
      Mr. Heffer: As the Government did not respond in a positive way to the approach by President Brezhnev, will the right hon. Gentleman tell me what the Government's view is of the positive response made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to President Brezhnev's approach? Is it not time that the Government started to do something positive about winding down nuclear weapons in Europe and other parts of the world?
      Mr. Nott: The negotiations that have been promised by the United States before the end of the year have our fullest support. These are bound to be between the United States and the Soviet Union, as the two principal strategic nuclear Powers, but we are giving every support to those arms control negotiations, and will continue to do so.
      Mr. Churchill: Bearing in mind the courageous leadership on this subject of Chancellor Schmidt, and the determination of President Mitterrand to continue with the French force de frappe, can my right hon. Friend explain why Britain's Socialists should be so pusillanimous and unpatriotic on the issue of deterring war and aggression?
      Mr. Nott: I am not sure to which Socialists my hon. Friend is referring to.
      Mr. John: Since Chancellor Schmidt is being so heavily relied upon by Conservative Members, will the Government try to emulate the urgency and the directness with which Chancellor Schmidt is approaching disarmament talks with the Warsaw Pact countries, instead of sheltering behind pro-nuclear sentiments, followed by the weakest of pressure upon the United States Government?
      Mr. Nott: We have had a policy of nuclear deterrence for many years, and the Labour Party has, up to now, supported it, so that there has been no change in policy.

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      Like the German Chancellor, we are supporting the efforts of the United States to bring about sensible arms control limitation negotiations. But there is nobody to push, because negotiations will take place in any case.

      Nuclear Attack (Early Warning)
      Miss Joan Lestorasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he is satisfied with the current efficiency of early warning arrangements in the event of a nuclear attack.
      Mr. Blaker: Yes, Sir.
      Miss Lestor: Bearing in mind that the highlighting of civil defence and early warning systems makes people believe the dangerous illusion that this country could survive a nuclear attack, if the whole reason for Britain's retaining nuclear weapons is to ensure that we shall not be attacked by other nations, why do we need early warning systems and survival kits?
      Mr. Blaker: Because it convinces the potential enemy of our seriousness about deterrence.
      Mr. Robert Atkins: Will my hon. Friend confirm that one of the results of the Civil Service strike has been to affect the RAF's early warning radar, because the PSA has refused to work on some of the generators, so that the supply has had to be taken from the national grid, which is inadequate, and the RAF early warning radar cover has therefore had to be downgraded?
      Mr. Blaker: I have no information to suggest that the consequences are serious.
      Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Is this the system that failed to pick up the Israeli attack on Iraq?
      Mr. Blaker: I do not know the answer to that question.
      Mr. Wilkinson: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the Western approaches to this country are adequately covered, as Warsaw Pact air forces now have aircraft of sufficient range to attack this country, with nuclear weapons if need be, from that direction?
      Mr. Blaker: The brief answer is "Yes". We are well aware that the Backfire bomber could attack Great Britain from the West and from other directions.

      Devonport Dockyard (Apprenticeships)
      Mr. Hicksasked the Secretary of State for Defence how many Ministry of Defence craft apprentices are to commence their period of training at Her Majesty's dockyard Devonport in September 1981; what arrangements have been made with the Manpower Services Commission for them to take up the remaining places; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Blaker: We are still considering the total number of apprentices to be taken for training in Ministry of Defence establishments in 1981, including Devonport dockyard. I am unable at this stage to add to the written reply given to my hon. Friend on 1 June.
      Discussions are taking place with the Manpower Services Commission about the possibility that it may be able to use the spare apprentice training capacity in the Ministry of Defence.
      Mr. Hicks: Is my hon. Friend aware that more than 1,200 young people sat the examination in February and are still awaiting the results, when normally they would
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      have heard them a month ago? Is he aware that many of them have left school and that this is creating great uncertainty not only for them but for their instructors and in the Royal Navy as a whole? Will he give an assurance that any shortfall will be taken up by civilian apprentices?
      Mr. Blaker: With regard to the time factor, I am advised that notice is frequently given later than on this occasion. Nevertheless, we are not complacent about this and we shall ensure that notice is given to the applicants as soon as possible. A number of factors have prevented our doing so before now.
      Mr. Douglas: We must await the Secretary of State's statement and authority for an assurance about the future of the dockyards, but does the Minister accept that in the case of Rosyth, where there have been 10 applications for every vacancy, urgent action is needed to take up the facilities that are available for apprentice training?
      Mr. Blaker: I am aware of the impatience in a number of establishments, including Rosyth. The number of applications there is not unusual compared with other establishments. There is great demand for these apprenticeships.
      Mr. Jim Spicer: Is my hon. Friend aware that this situation applies not only to apprentices, but to many other recruits for the Armed Forces? Is he satisfied that the Manpower Services Commission is examining as a matter of great urgency the opportunity that is presented to it?
      Mr. Blaker: My hon. Friend must address that question to the Manpower Services Commission or to the Department of Employment, but I have no reason to think that either is being slow on the job. One reason why there are many applicants waiting to join the Services is the high level of retention, which itself is satisfactory.

      Defence Expenditure
      Sir William van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Defence what was the increase in expenditure on defence in real terms in 1980–81.
      Mr. Nott: The final figures are not yet available, but the latest indications are that the increase was in excess of the 3 per cent. NATO aim.
      Sir William van Straubenzee: Based on that encouraging start, will my right hon. Friend confirm that it remains his intention to fulfil the undertakings of the 1979 Conservative election manifesto in relation to defence?
      Mr. Nott: I do not think that there can be any question but that we have fulfilled the Conservative election manifesto, both in meeting the NATO 3 per cent. aim and in our commitment to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. There are no areas in which I feel that the Conservative Party has not lived up to what it said at the time of the election it would do.
      Mr. Dubs: Will the Secretary of State confirm that the 3 per cent. NATO target was a figure plucked out of the air as being the most that NATO thought it could impose upon the NATO powers?
      Mr. Nott: I do not know how the figure was orginally initiated, but in my view it has been an extremely valuable

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      means of keeping all the NATO Allies up to the mark on defence spending. Many of them have met the 3 per cent., or even gone over it.
      Mr. John Browne: Will my right hon. Friend give an estimate of the amount by which the expenditure should have increased in real terms to maintain the technology of defence, rather than just stay ahead of inflation?
      Mr. Nott: That is an extremely difficult estimate to make, because defence inflation varies from year to year. On average, in the 1970s the difference was about 1½ to 2 per cent. over the general rate of inflation. In times of recession, it is very different from what it is during times of boom. It is therefore difficult to pluck a figure out of the air and say that that is the figure that applies.

    PRIME MINISTER

      Voluntary Organisations
      Q 1. Mr. FreudPrime Minister if she will list the voluntary organisations of which she is patron or holds office in her official capacity.
      The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): I hold no such positions in my official capacity, although in my personal capacity I have links with a number of voluntary organisations.
      Mr. Freud: That is a position from which one can only advance. Does the Prime Minister accept that, with a little help, a substantial number of handicapped people in institutions could play their full part in the community? Is she aware that what is needed is not so much finance as a redeployment of funds?
      The Prime Minister: The Government have given assistance to voluntary organisations of about £4 million in 1980–siderable amount of which goes to voluntary organisations that help such people as the disabled. We are great believers in voluntary organisations. They provide a unique service, and we do everything that we can to help them to carry on their excellent work.
      Sir Anthony Kershaw: Will my right hon. Friend have time today to devote her attention to the worrying problem of crime in South London—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not know whether that is voluntary. The question relates to voluntary organisations. It is not an open question.
      Mr. Adley: As one of the voluntary organisations with which my right hon. Friend is, happily, closely associated is the Conservative Party, is she aware that the current paid-up membership of the Christchurch and Lymington Conservative Association stands at 11,700, which is more than last year, and that those 11,700 people are very satisfied with her relationship with the Conservative Party?
      The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend and hope that others will emulate his example.
      Mr. Christopher Price: Is the Prime Minister aware that the law relating to voluntary organisations and charities in this country is in a complete mess, as instanced by the recent legal case in which the Moonies were involved? Is she aware that a Select Committee of the
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      House produced an all-party agreed report on this issue as long ago as 1975, only to receive a perfunctory reply from the Government? Will the Government carry out a full review, followed by legislation, to sort out the position of charities in this country?
      The Prime Minister: As I said in reply to another question, a certain amount of action is being taken over the registration as charities in Britain of the organisations that are connected with the Moonies. The report did not meet with unanimity, and we have no plans to introduce legislation at present.

    Engagements
    Mr. Butcherasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 23 June.
    The Prime Minister: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues arid others, including one with the Iraqi Minister of Trade. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
    Mr. Butcher: Will my right hon. Friend point out that, with the exception of Denmark, Britain has the highest proportion of its population in work—[Interruption] —compared with all the other countries within the EEC? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the British form of work-sharing—albeit trade union-induced over the last 15 years—has resulted in low wages and low productivity? Does she agree further that the reversal of those trends is a pre-condition for greater wealth creation and reducing the numbers of long-term unemployed?
    The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is correct in saying that, with the exception of Denmark, Britain has the highest proportion of its population in work of those countries within the EEC. I should have thought that the opposition would welcome such news just as much as have Conservative Members. We must get rid of overmanning if industry is to be competitive. The irony is that that gives rise to unemployment in the early stages. Nevertheless, it must be done if we are to have any hope of expanding business in the long-term.
    Mr. Foot: In the context of the terrible fresh bout of unemployment figures that have been published today, does the right hon. Lady agree with the statement made at lunch-time on the radio by the Secretary of State for Employment to the effect that the figure of 3 million is likely to be reached at the beginning of next year, or even this year? Was that figure before the Cabinet last week, when its members decided to continue with the policies that have helped to cause it?
    The Prime Minister: As I have told the right hon. Gentleman before, we are entering a period when many school leavers register as unemployed. It is inevitable that when the structure of the population is such that there are far more people leaving school than retiring, there will be an increase in the number of those in the labour force who need jobs. Inevitably, unemployment will rise during the coming months. I cannot say to what figure. Although a deplorable rise in unemployment was announced today, the underlying increase is much less than it was. On average, the underlying increase—seasonally adjusted—in the past three months was 57,000. In the

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    previous three months the underlying increase was 81,000, and in the three months preceding that the average figure per month was 115,000.
    Mr. Foot: Given that the number of young unemployed is rising so drastically, why have the Government not come forward with more far-reaching plans to deal with the situation? Is the right hon. Lady confirming what the Secretary of State for Employment said about the possibility of 3 million unemployed?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I am confirming what I said. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware that I emulate him in one way; it is not my habit to forecast the unemployment figures. He did not do so, and I do not. For the reasons that I have given, there will inevitably be an increase in unemployment. There is an extensive programme to help school leavers. At present, we are finding about 440,000 places for young people who cannot get jobs. I hope that the number of places will be enough, but if it is not we shall increase the number in order to guarantee school leavers some work experience by Christmas. That is a lot earlier than the right hon. Gentleman guaranteed during his period of office.
    Viscount Cranborne: Given the success of the American space shuttle, will my right hon. Friend take time today to consider how long it will be before the United States of America can put a new ABM system into orbit? Will she consider how soon that is likely to take place and its likely effect on the obsolescence, or otherwise, of the Trident system?
    The Prime Minister: I saw Captain John Young the other day. Indeed, I saw him and went over the shuttle with him some years ago, during the early preparations. We do not need to expect an effective anti-ballistic missile system for some time. Indeed, some say that we shall never have an effective one that can put out the nuclear warhead while in flight.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Will the Prime Minister find time to meet the wives, sweethearts and mothers of the soldiers who have been murdered by the IRA in Northern Ireland, to assure them that it remains the majority decision of the House to minimise the possibility of those murderers being elected to the House?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, this matter was discussed yesterday. We extend every sympathy to the relatives of those who have been murdered or injured while on duty in Northern Ireland. We are very grateful that we have forces that carry out their duties with such commendable restraint and devotion to duty as those in Northern Ireland. In the meantime, I have nothing to add the what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said yesterday about the Bill.
    Mr. Alan Clarkasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 23 June.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Clark: Has my right hon. Friend yet had time to read the interesting speech made over the weekend by the deputy secretary general of the Transport and General Workers Union, Mr. Alex Kitson, in which he added his voice to the growing number of those who regard the idea
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    of the closed shop as an intolerable intrusion into individual liberty? When will legislation be brought before the House to outlaw it?
    The Prime Minister: If Mr. Kitson is wholly against the closed shop and its compulsory nature, I shall be delighted to have a new recruit. Legislation next Session, which will include something on the closed shop, is well on the cards.
    Mr. Soley: Given that the Prime Minister does not seem able to control public expenditure to the extent that she would like, is not the enforcement of tough financial limits on local authorities a classic case of "Do not do as we do; do as we tell you"?
    The Prime Minister: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware that if we had had the level of public expenditure that the Labour Government planned it would be nearly £11 billion more than it is now. If that were the case, the levels of taxation and of interest rates would be intolerable and appalling.
    Sir Anthony Kershaw: Will my right hon. Friend still have time today to consider the level of violence—including muggings, robberies with violence and racist attacks—in South London? Does that not mean that there should be more police, rather than fewer as Labour councils in that part of the world advocate?
    The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend is referring to the terrible wanton hooliganism that occurred the other day in Peckham, I can only say that it was totally deplorable. The Metropolitan Police force is not quite up to establishment, and naturally we wish to get it up to strength. I agree that we need more police, not less. They carry out their duties magnificently.
    Mr. Allan Robertsasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 23 June.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Roberts: Will the Prime Minister today consider the obscene level of unemployment in Merseyside? The national average is high enough, but unemployment in Merseyside is nearly double that. Given that some of my constituents are of Irish descent, and that both Protestants and Catholics live in harmony together, will she give the industries of that area the same amount of help as the Government have given to Harland and Wolff?
    The Prime Minister: The problem of Merseyside is acutely difficult. The Government have set up almost every organisation possible in order to help the area. Those organisations include the urban development corporation, a partnership arrangement, an enterprise zone and the help given through being a special development area. Per annum, about £300 million of Government aid goes into Merseyside. I begin to wonder whether we get the best value for it and whether it is properly applied in the interests of those who work on Merseyside. There would seem to be a certain lack of decision about what to do in relation to such things as the ring road, and it would seem to go through the whole organisation. It is time that a decision was reached on how to proceed with the problems of Merseyside.
    Mr. Murphy: Will my right hon. Friend find time today to congratulate those firms in my constituency which

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    have courageously invested during the recent recession and which already are seeing an improvement in their trading?
    The Prime Minister: I am delighted to congratulate firms that have continued to invest. The clue to investment is whether a company can be certain of getting a reasonable return. When they can, we are prepared to make the investment and finance abundantly forthcoming.

    SCOTTISH AFFAIRS
    Ordered,
    That the matter of the recommendations of the Committee of inquiry into Local Government in Scotland (the Stodart Committee), being a matter relating exclusively to Scotland, be referred to the Scottish Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. Le Marchnt.]

Local Government Act 1972 (Amendment)
3.30 pm
Mr. Reg Race: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Local Government Act 1972 so as to permit employees of a local authority to stand for elections to such authorities.
The House does not often have the opportunity on two consecutive days to discuss the subject of the disqualification of individuals from standing for public office. For that reason, I feel somewhat like the dustcart after the Lord Mayor's show—to use the old working-class phrase—following yesterday's debate.
The Bill that I invite the House to approve will allow local authority employees who reside in the area where they work to stand for the local authority. That introduces a major point of principle. Yesterday, the Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) expressed concern about the way in which disqualifications were put into statute by the House. The Home Secretary said:
"The question of the disqualification of any group of citizens, or of any individual, is of the highest importance."
My right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook said:
"Unreasonable disqualifications are wrong. Indeed, they are more than wrong, they are a matter of major constitutional significance".—[Official Report, 22 June 1981; Vol. 7, c. 32–33.]
Both right hon. Gentlemen referred to disqualifications from standing for membership of the House. The principle that they enunciated yesterday should also be applied to consideration of local government elections.
I invite the House to agree that it is entirely unreasonable to expect hundreds of thousands of local authority employees to be debarred from standing for the local authority where they work. Under the Local Government Act 1972 there are large numbers of disqualifications. Some of those are entirely reasonable.
I want to stress that my Bill in no way changes the other disqualifications under the 1972 Act, such as the disqualification of undischarged bankrupts or the disqualification of those persons surcharged more than £500 by the district auditor within a period of five years prior to the date of the election. It does not cover disqualification of those persons convicted in the past five years and given a prison sentence of not less than three months without the option of a fine, or any other residual disqualifications embodied in the Representation of the People Act 1949. My Bill addresses itself solely to the principle of local authority employment and whether those who work for a local authority should have the right, if they live in that area, to stand for the council, be elected, and serve on its committees and on the full council.
There has been some change in the attitude of the House to those matters since the 1972 Act. In 1974, when London Transport came under the direct aegis of the Greater London Council for the first time, the House agreed to amend the Local Government Act 1972 to allow employees of the London Transport Executive to stand for the Greater London Council, whereas under the 1972 Act they would have been debarred from so standing and serving. That shows the extent to which the House in 1974 was prepared to alter the 1972 Act to prevent large numbers of people from being unreasonably excluded from standing for a local authority.
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I should draw the attention of the House to the fact that under the existing statute teachers employed in Inner London Education Authority schools can stand for election to borough councils in outer London and the Greater London Council, provided that they seek election to seats outside the ILEA area.
Hon. Members may wish to know how many people are affected by the disqualification. Disqualification affects about one in seven of the total number of local government electors in the United Kingdom. That estimate was made during the passage of the Local Government Act 1972 and demonstrates the size of the problem that we face. The people who are so disqualified range in employment from the chief executives of borough and county councils down to the humblest lavatory attendant, refuse collector or street sweeper employed by an individual local authority.
I should mention briefly some of the objections that may be raised by hon. Members when considering the proposed Bill. The first is that if local government employees were elected to office on a council they might unreasonably influence their own pay and conditions. That does not seem to affect many hon. Members when we discuss Members' salaries. Nevertheless, it is a view that has been expressed about local government. However, since the mid-1940s, most of the serious and major negotiations on local authority pay have taken place not at local authority level but at national level, between representatives of the Government through the Civil Service and the Association of County Councils, the Association of District Councils and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, which is the body that decides the pay and conditions for most local authorities.
The second principal objection that may be levelled is that employees may unreasonably influence the policies of the local authority. My answer is that a conflict of interests between a local authority employee in terms of his or her membership of an authority and his or her employment arises only at the highest level.
There is a conflict of interest between the position of a chief executive, chief officer or deputy chief officer of a council. Clearly, they, who must develop the policies of a local authority on instruction from the elected members, could unreasonably influence the policy of that local authority if they became elected members. For that reason, the Bill excludes those individuals. I want to ensure that local authority electors are given a choice about whom they elect, and also that large numbers of people should not be debarred from standing for membership of a local authority.
We do not exclude many people who have a direct pecuniary interest in the affairs of a local authority. We do not automatically exclude estate agents, even though they may have a pecuniary interest in some of the contracts into which a local authority enters. In my view, the way to deal with the problem of local authority employees is to bring into play the register of interests. Section 94 of the 1972 Act deals with the problem of members' interests in contracts.
This is not a party measure. It would not automatically increase the number of candidates for a particular political party. I believe that a large number of people whose support covers all parties represented in this House would welcome the opportunity to stand for election to a local authority. It is therefore important to try to increase the

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number of people who are interested in serving on local authorities. For all those principal reasons, I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Reg Race, Mr. Norman Hogg, Dr. David Clark, Mr. Bob Cryer, Mr. Martin Flannery, Mr. Allan Roberts, and Mr. Alfred Dubs.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 1972 (AMENDMENT)
Mr. Race accordingly presented a Bill to amend the Local Government Act 1972 so as to permit employees of a local authority to stand for elections to such authorities: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10 July and to be printed. [Bill 164.]
Orders of the Day
  SUPPLY
  [22ND ALLOTED DAY]—considered

  Royal Air Force
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Le Marchant.]
  3.42 pm
  Mr. Peter Snape: In opening the annual debate on the Royal Air Force, my first expression should perhaps be one of regret. Although I welcome the Minister of State to the debate for the first time, that expression of regret surrounds the demise of the hon. Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie) as the Minister responsible for the RAF.
  It has been custom and practice since the 1960s for each of the Armed Services to be represented by a Minister, and I am afraid that "Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement" does not have the same ring about it as "Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force". If I may say so, without unduly blighting his future career, in the two years in which I shadowed the hon. Gentleman, I found him to be a keen and enthusiastic RAF Minister. For those reasons, we regret the Prime Minister's decision to reshuffle the titles of Ministers in the Ministry of Defence.
  For many years, it has been true to say that there is not much wrong with the RAF that money could not put right. However, insufficient money is available under any Government to do all the things that the RAF would like to do. Inevitably, modern and expensive technology means that the RAF must account for a large slice of total defence expenditure. The RAF is tiny indeed compared with the air forces of the United States and the Soviet Union—the two super Powers—yet man for man it is rightly considered to be the best in NATO. I believe that it is probably the best trained and most professionally skilled in the world.
  If one looks back over the past 25 years, it is remarkable that the morale and ability of the RAF have remained so consistently high. It has seen its tactical aircraft reduced in numbers following the 1957 defence review, which relied more on the so-called nuclear deterrent than on manned aircraft and on air defence surface-to-air missiles than on conventional aeroplanes.
  In the 1960s, some of the RAF's most cherished projects—the supersonic jump jet, the Anglo-French variable geometry aircraft and the TSR2—were all cancelled, usually and justifiably in the name of economy. The 1970s brought yet another switch in emphasis. The strategy of flexible response meant that NATO moved away from tactical nuclear weapons—if such things exist—to conventional means of fighting, and the RAF's view of the "strike back" approach as a means of defence became the new strategy.
  To that end, the RAF brought into service Harriers and Jaguars and bought Phantoms from the United States. At that time it lacked a long-range aircraft for strike and attack missions, and that old campaigner, the Buccaneer, was plucked from the aircraft carrier and did, and still

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  does, sterling service in its low-flying attack role. Also in the 1970s there was the development of the Anglo-French Jaguar, which in the opinion of many experts was sadly underpowered and seemed to owe its existence more to the state of the entente cordiale than to the strategic requirements of the two respective air forces.
  The RAF, therefore, has a motley collection of aircraft—too few aeroplanes, but too many types. For the future, it has pinned its faith on just two types—the Tornado, with its all-weather and seemingly all-purpose capacity to replace aircraft as diverse as Vulcans, Buccaneers and Canberras in strike attack, and Lightnings and Phantoms as interceptors.
  In addition, we may have the AST403, an aircraft—perhaps I should say a concept—which as yet has no discernible outline. If I remember correctly, during last year's debate on the RAF at least two Conservative Members and one of my own hon. Friends made a plea for a quick decision on this matter. But given the experiences of Jaguar and Tornado to name but two, I fear that AST403 might well produce more talk than action.
  The Government must also make a decision in the near future on that other vexed project, the AST409, the Harrier replacement. It appears that they have already decided, although they have not publicly said so, to buy American. On 6 June, Flight International carried a story under the headline "AV8Bs for RAF". If, as they presumably hope, the Government can evade America's fairly tough anti-trust laws, they owe an explanation to the House if that is indeed the decision that they have reached.
  A comparison of the American AV8B with the all-British mark 5 indicates that the British version has a marked superiority in terms of maximum speed, speed at low level and better manoeuvrability. I understand that the GR5 has better air combat capability, a better payload and a longer range. But this decision is surely about the independence or otherwise of British Aerospace. The V/STOL project represents a massive United Kingdom investment in British cash and technology, but fears are already being expressed within British Aerospace about the future of its skilled and experienced designers and technicians. "Go West, young man," might be their only option if this country goes ahead and buys American.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: The hon. Gentleman is right to talk about the concern expressed by British Aerospace in relation to maintaining a design team. Will he also recognise that the decision, if it is taken, to have the AV8B rather than the GR5 will mean more in terms of profitability and jobs to British Aerospace?
  Mr. Snape: The hon. Gentleman pre-empts me by seconds. I was about to deal with that matter. It is, however, right to point out the long-term implications for the technical and design staff and to express their fears about the future. As the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins) says, there will be substantial orders for the United Kingdom if the Government purchase the AV8B. As far as McDonnell Douglas is concerned, I have seen estimates that between 60 and 75 per cent. of the total work will go to Rolls-Royce.
  I hope that the Minister will say whether we are to have British or American. If we are to have American, what proportion of the available work will come to Britain? Indeed, the Minister will have to go further. Many times
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  in the past pious hopes have been expressed about cooperation between our respective aircraft building companies. The American are tough and hard business men. I hope that if the decision is to go ahead with the AV8B, the Minister and his colleagues will be able to assure the House that contracts for the subcontract work are drawn so tightly that the promises of the United States Government and its aircraft builders become a reality. It would be sad if British Aerospace is to be left, in the words of Mr. Ken Gill of the AUEW, only with a role as America's tin bashers.
  I appreciate the difficulties behind the decision. I hope, however, that the future for British skills, technology and workers in aircraft design can be assured as a result of tightly drawn agreements.
  Mr. John Wilkinson: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's balanced remarks about an important project. Does he also regard as important the retention by British Aerospace of an independent design capability in V/STOL in which it has world primacy? Does he agree that this is the key if we are to develop the Harrier beyond the AV8B into a truly supersonic V/STOL for the 1990s?
  Mr. Snape: I hope that this is what will happen. I believe that the hon. Gentleman will support to some extent my view that if one buys American there is a danger that the British capacity for further development will be lost. That would be a tragedy. I agree 100 per cent. with the hon. Gentleman.
  No debate would be complete without some mention of Trident and its effect on the Royal Air Force budget in the 1980s. Some Conservative Members have given notice of their concern—I believe that the hon. Member for Preston, North did so in the debate last year—regarding the impact of Trident on other defence budgets, particularly RAF purchases throughout the 1980s and the 1990s. The future of projects like the AST403 and 409 are bound up in the overall defence posture and policy of the Government. It appears that the RAF budget is at present untouched. We are concerned, however, that Trident should not have a serious effect on our air defence capability in the run-up to the next election. I repeat what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said on many occasions. After the next election, the Labour Government will cancel the Trident project, which will cease to be a burden and threat to our other defence priorities.
  Conservative Members have many questions to answer on Trident. Nearly all of them profess to support it. They say that its cost should not fall on other Service budgets. They neither know nor appear to care what these costs are. The estimates are very vague. They neither know nor appear to care about the effect of the costs not only on Service budgets but on the whole range of Government expenditure. A decision to go ahead with Trident does not merely affect Service budgets. It also affects areas important to hon. Members on both sides, such as schools, hospitals, the National Health Service and industrial strategy. All will be affected if the Government go ahead with Trident. Conservative Back Benchers should reflect on whether this country can really afford, putting aside the ethics of the matter, to stay in the nuclear arms race while still providing the conventional forces that Britain and NATO want.
  Over the years, when demands for economies have been made, the Royal Air Force, unlike the Royal Navy,

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  has chosen to cut its administrative and back-up services rather than to reduce the number and efficiency of its combat squadrons. Many ground crews still work long hours without overtime pay. For the unemployed youngster, with the necessary academic and technical qualifications, the RAF still offers an extremely good career. Many who acquire specialist skills are much sought after in civilian life. The RAF needs its skilled mechanics and technicians. Their pay and conditions must be such that they remain in the RAF at the end of their engagements.
  A great deal has been heard about the shortage of pilots. My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) has pointed out repeatedly that there are the equivalent of two-and-a-half pilots to every aircraft receiving flying pay. There is still, however, a shortage and, so far as can be seen, will continue to be a shortage of fast jet pilots. A pilot entering the RAF from university takes five-and-a-half years, including three at university, to reach his first squadron. A direct entrant pilot takes three-and-a-half years. It says a great deal about modern systems of navigation and weapon systems that the training of a navigator takes almost as long.
  The failure rate of pilots of fast jet aircraft is still, I believe, about 70 per cent., although a proportion of initial failures eventually qualify on less demanding aircraft. I appreciate the difficulties. I wonder, however, if the Ministry of Defence has considered shorter lengths of service or even the vexed question, discussed last year, of adequately trained reserves. Both would, I suggest, have a beneficial effect in the short term. After all, 35 per cent. of jet pilots are currently on short service commissions. I believe that the Royal Air Force can ill afford to lose such pilots. I believe that the Ministry should examine the possibility of increased inducements to persuade them to sign on at the end of their engagements.
  The tough questions regarding pilots of modern aircraft require an expert—I am certainly not one of them—to provide an answer. Can a man, no matter how well trained, be expected to perform all the roles necessary in flying a multi-role aircraft? Can he really be a fighter pilot, bombardier, close-air support specialist and ECM operator? Can he perform all these functions in combat?
  In the event of a Soviet attack, NATO's tactical air doctrine emphasises four main roles—counter-air, meaning the maximum disruption of Soviet air operations; close air support, the co-ordination of air attacks with NATO ground forces; interdiction, the attack on logistics and communications; and reconnaisance to provide intelligence.
  There is still a basic difference between the Royal Air Force and the United States Air Force over strategy. The USAF favours medium level operations utilising technology, while the Royal Air Force emphasises low level flight, stressing pilot skill. No one doubts that such skill exists. RAF pilots have consistently achieved brilliant results in exercises such as Red Flag and Giant Voice. Without repeating views that I put forward last year, I would point out that the United States, the only NATO nation with recent air combat experience, is moving away from multi-role aircraft designs toward more austere and narrower purpose aircraft such as the F16 and the A10.
  The Warsaw Pact has basically four main types of aircraft. It has the TU-16 Badger, a fairly old, medium-range jet bomber, the TU-22 Blander, a supersonic and maritime patrol bomber, and the Backfire, which appears
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  to be earmarked for a long-range role. That leaves only the SU-19 Fencer, a swing-wing fighter bomber for frontal aviation, yet the 150 currently deployed represent only 4 per cent. of the pact's frontal aviation. Even when the full complement of 600 Fencers is deployed in 1985, the plane will still constitute only 13 per cent. of the Warsaw Pact's total air power. In other words, the pact's all-weather capability is limited. In any case, the Fencer appears to be earmarked not for front-line ground support but for fairly deep interdiction against high value targets.
  As I pointed out in last year's debate, the mass deployment of anti-aircraft guns would force the Soviet Union into higher level operations than it plans at present. According to the United States, in North Vietnam the mass deployment of anti-aircraft guns significantly reduced the accuracy and thus the effectiveness of United States air strikes by up to 50 per cent.
  The Soviets can only reach that type of defence with precise-guided weapons, and presently it is behind the West in that capability. If the Minister believes differently, perhaps he will tell the House. Indeed, one or two American specialists to whom I have spoken believe that the lack of precise-guided weapons places a question mark over the Soviet clear-weather capability on the central front.
  Although we can justifiably be proud of the Royal Air Force, I have a number of questions for the Minister. Regarding phasing out the AEW Shackleton, when will the AWACS Nimrod be in place, and what plans does the Department have to cover the gap of some years? What about the Nimrod's lack of look-down capability over land? In last year's debate I mentioned experience with the Grumman turbo prop E2-C. Have the Government looked into the problem? It worries our NATO Allies considerably.
  Has the Minister seen the reports on co-operative development on Jaguar replacement with Saudi Arabia? Is there any truth in them? If so, what future is there for European development? Over the past few weeks there has been talk of the P106 development with Sweden and India. There have been newspaper reports about both matters. Can the Minister clear up the understandable confusion on both sides of the House about the future of the project?
  Given the constant escalation in equipment costs, has the Department compiled priorities if further cuts have to be made? How do equipment costs look over the next 12 months or two years compared with the retail price index? The Secretary of State mentioned the vexed question of defence costs. Sophisticated technical equipment has a habit of escalating in cost at a far greater rate than the RPI.
  What happened to the much vaunted de-mothballing of the Lightning squadron? The Under-Secretary of State told us last year that it was essential to Britain's air defences. Does the RAF employ a squadron of erks shovelling mothballs in and out of the squadron? There has been no sign of it being wheeled out of the hangar since the hon. Gentleman promised that it would appear. Is there a gap in our defences without it?
  A few weeks ago we discussed our future defences in the debate on the defence White Paper. Pay was mentioned. Hon. Members on the Government Benches congratulated the Government on what they called a very good settlement, but their glee was not shared by the press. Although I am afraid they are four weeks out of date, let me quote some headlines. The Financial Times stated:
  "Armed forces to get 9·4% net rise".

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  The Daily Telegraph headline was:
  "Back-dated Service increases put 10·3 pc on total salary bill".
  The Times had the best one:
  "Other ranks may take cuts in Forces 'rise'".
  In Opposition in the 1970s, the Tories made great play of the need for Armed Forces' pay increases to be kept up to retain skilled men in the Royal Air Force, but Henry Stanhope, the defence correspondent of The Times, states in the article:
  "The Ministry of Defence acknowledged last night that many lower ranking Servicemen will see little or no difference in their pay packets after increased charges, higher national insurance contributions and tax have been taken into account. A number, including most junior soldiers, will be worse off."
  If that is true, what do the Government plan to do? In the last review, food charges were increased by 26 per cent. to £11·69 a week, and increased accommodation charges were described at the time as substantial after several easy years, so it is unfair if the lower ranks are worse off because of a pay rise that many hon. Members on the Government Benches described as substantial.
  In last year's debate, I criticised the Property Services Agency, which is one of the quangos created by the Government of thrusting business men between 1970 and 1974. The justification for the PSA is as illogical as the reorganisation of the National Health Service and, indeed, the much vaunted and still unexplained local government reorganisation. The Conservative Government's doctrine of bigger is better has proved a failure, certainly with regard to the PSA.
  Station commanders and others with whom I have spoken in the past year tell be that, far from things getting better, the bureaucracy, problems, delays, incompetence and inefficiency have become worse over the past 12 months. I appreciate that we are dealing with two Departments, and that it is difficult when dealing with the Department of the Environment to chop one's way through the bureaucratic tangle that surrounds the great towers on Marsham Street, but, for the sake of better relations at RAF stations, I hope that Ministers will attempt to overcome that problem next year.
  In the debate last year, the Under-Secretary of State revealed the RAF's accident statistics for 1979. I do not know whether the Government plan to give us the 1980 statistics today. Considerable concern was expressed in 1979 and 1980 about accidents. The RAF lost 26 aircraft, with 11 Service men killed and nine seriously injured, in 1979, although I accept that there was a hiccup and the figures are slightly above average. One or two of the accidents last year caused considerable concern, which, I hope, will be allayed. I hope that we shall be told that the accident rate has improved.
  The Government inherited the Royal Air force in its present state. Despite the bellicose speeches of the mid-1970s and the attacks on my hon. Friends the Members for Pontypridd (Mr. John) and for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved), I finish where I started. Man for man, the Royal Air Force is better than any other air force in the world, and is one of which hon. Members can justifiably be proud.
  4.10 pm
  The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Peter Blaker): I approach the Dispatch Box today with some diffidence. This is the first occasion for some time
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  on which a debate on the Royal Air Force has been opened for the Government by a Minister other than one designated with exclusive responsibility for that Service. After less than a month in office I have had little opportunity to see for myself the Royal Air Force at work. I look forward to doing so very soon and to meeting the men and women who serve in this and the other two Services.
  The House will be aware that our defence programme has been subjected to a thorough review. We heard today that the Secretary of State will announce his conclusions to the House on Thursday. The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) asked many questions, some of which referred to the outcome of that review. I must ask him, as his hon. Friends were asked by my right hon. Friend and others at Question Time today, to await our answers on those subjects on Thursday. There are other questions that we can answer today. I myself shall not attempt to answer all of them. I may be able to answer one or two of them, but I do not want to diverge too much from the main thrust of my speech because I have certain things to say which I am sure the House is waiting to hear, such as the reorganisation of the ministerial structure.
  Before my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State makes his statement on Thursday, I must stress that the Government remain totally committed to the NATO objective of increasing defence expenditure by about 3 per cent. per annum in real terms. Since coming to office we have achieved that aim, and it is our firm intention to continue to do so.
  Mr. Brynmor John: I apologise for interrupting the Minister. Reports have it that the Government will not meet it either this year or next year. What will the Government do in the remainder of their period to fulfil that obligation?
  Mr. Blaker: That is perhaps a more appropriate subject to raise on Thursday with my right hon. Friend.
  I propose to set out the current roles of the RAF, to say how its forces are deployed, to talk about its many peace-time activities, and to refer to the impressive programme of re-equipment upon which it is embarked. I shall speak in particular about its major asset in the effective operation and support of its aircraft and equipment—that is, its uniformed officers and men and their civilian colleagues.
  However, before I speak about the RAF I believe that the House will expect to be told something about the recent changes in the ministerial structure, as this is the first occasion on which there has been an opportunity to say something on that subject. Rumour has it that in 1970 the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who was the Secretary of State for Defence for the Labour Government at that time, contemplated the sort of reorganisation of the structure that we have now undertaken. I cannot assert that, but it is widely believed to have been a fact. I was therefore interested in what the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East said about his regret at the departure of the three Under-Secretaries for the three different Services.
  I refer back to the White Paper "Central Organisation for Defence" of 1963—setting aside what may have been the views of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East in 1970—which laid down four basic principles: first, that the control of defence policy requires a greater knowledge of the background problems and currents of opinion within

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  the Services than can be secured with four separate Defence Departments—as there were then—responsible to separate Ministers; secondly, that the Secretary of State must have complete control both of defence policy and of the machinery for the administration of the three Services; thirdly, that the services must preserve their separate identities; fourthly, that although the three Services would remain separate, work within the new Ministry would be organised wherever possible on a defence rather than a single-Service basis. Those are the principles to which all successive Governments have remained committed, and I believe that most of us would agree with them today.
  At the same time, it seems obvious that satisfying those principles is a matter of achieving a proper balance between arrangements that provide adequate across-the-board support for the Secretary of State on the one hand and those that enable the three Services to manage themselves efficiently on the other. This is achieved in the Ministry of Defence by organising work on two different axes. On one axis are functional officers giving across-the-board advice or managing functions on an across-the-board basis, such as the Chief Scientific Adviser and the Chief of Defence Procurement, while on the other axis the Service boards can obtain functional advice in order to form their views on a single-Service basis. So there is a form of grid.
  So far as the ministerial structure is concerned, it is a question of achieving an appropriate balance between the provision of support on a functional basis to the Secretary of State and an adequate political direction to each of the Services. The new organisation is intended to strengthen the functional ministerial support for the Secretary of State.
  Thus, as the titles imply, the Minister of State for Defence Procurement and the Under-Secretary for Defence Procurement—my hon. Friend the Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie)—will look after equipment matters, including requirements, development and approvals. procurement executive management, sales, research and development, and so on. They will do this for all three Services. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces—that is, myself—and the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces—my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart)—will look after the administration of all three Services, personnel and logistic matters, and similar questions.
  At the same time, the three Services, the three Service Departments, and the three Service boards will be retained. Looking at the roles of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham and myself, there are three important functions that we shall need to perform in relation to the Armed Forces. The first function is to provide a political input into the consideration of important problems. I intend to do this by, among other things, taking the chair on behalf of the Secretary of State at the Service boards, of which my hon. Friends the Under-Secretaries of State will also be members. My hon. Friend the Member for Chertsey will attend, as necessary, for discussion of equipment matters.
  The second function is to deal with casework in the form of Members' correspondence and parliamentary questions. Each Minister will now do this, so far as subjects falling within his responsibility are concerned, for all three Services. The third function is to visit the Services. It is important that Ministers should know the
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  Services and that the Services, in turn, should feel that Ministers are closely in touch with the problems of the grass roots.
  Mr. James Wellbeloved: While the Minister is on the subject of the organisation of the Service boards, may I ask him whether the Government intend to abolish the so-called Standing Committee for the Royal Air Force, which comprises only Service officers and permanent civil servants, without any political input—the same sort of Committee exists in the other two Service boards—and to ensure that all discussions about the future of the three Service boards are carried out when a political Minister is present?
  Mr. Blaker: The Committee to which the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) refers is a matter for the Service members of the boards. We have no intention of imposing any change so far as Ministers are concerned.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: Will the Minister explain what he said about questions? He rather glossed over the subject. Do I understand that any Minister will be responsible for answering any questions on any Service and that there will be no delegation at all?
  Mr. Blaker: No. That was not what I intended to say. I intended to say that there will be a basic division between the two Ministers who are concerned with defence procurement—that basically involves equipment and related matters—and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces and myself, who will be responsible for the Service boards and for administration, personnel an logistics. Questions will fall to be answered by the Minister or Ministers who are dealing with the separate subjects. Correspondence from hon. Members will be dealt with on a similar basis.
  The Service boards will lose their own Ministers but will have in the chair a more senior Minister than before, who will be familiar with the Services and will be expected to have an understanding of the defence-wide implications of what is being discussed. I am not yet familiar with everything, but I hope to be so before long.
  I turn to the main subject of the debate. As this year's defence White Paper shows, air power has always played an important part in NATO strategy. The speed with which air power can be applied, its flexibility and its effectiveness against a variety of targets give it a unique place in the spectrum of military capabilities.
  The dramatic changes that have taken place in the Soviet air forces in the last 10 years demonstrate the recognition of that fact by the Soviet Union. Until about 1970 the Soviet air forces' range of capabilities was limited. Its bomber force was mainly nuclear and its tactical air forces were intended to operate in close support of the Army.
  Since then, massive expenditure has led to a huge programme of improvements in all arms, not least in the air arm, which now accounts for 1 millon men and about 20,000 military aircraft. This represents something like a 30 per cent. increase over the last decade. During this time, many new aircraft have been introduced, including the long-range Backfire bomber, which is capable of higher speed, greater range and bigger payload than any predecessor. I said at Question Time, it has the range to attack the United Kingdom from the West as well as from the North and East.

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  About 80 of these aircraft are estimated to face West and a further 30 are produced each year. The Soviet tactical air forces have also been greatly enhanced and now number about 5,000 aircraft. Three-quarters of these are the dual-capable Fencers, Floggers and Fitters, with twice the range and payload of their predecessors. Fencer is a light bomber with the ability to carry a heavy weapon load over long distances and in certain flight profiles could reach South-East England. By the middle of this decade we expect 1,000 of these aircraft to be available.
  When one takes into account the greatly improved avionics and the increasing accuracy of their weapons and delivery systems, the threat from the air to the United Kingdom and NATO can be seen to be great and continually increasing.
  Mr. Churchill: Bearing in mind that the tactical air threat to the United Kingdom from the Soviet Union, and specifically its capability to drop conventional bombs on Britain, has increased by a factor of 10 over the last five years, and bearing in mind what the Minister said about the capability of the Backfire bomber to strike from the West, what have the Government been doing in the last two years to strengthen the appallingly weak state of the United Kingdom's air defences, which, under the last Government, provided for no more than 10 aircraft for the air defence of the entire southern half of the United Kingdom, the southern part of the North Sea, the Channel and the Western Approaches?
  Mr. Blaker: I recognise the importance that my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) has, for a long time, rightly attached to that question. Rather than embark on a detailed reply today it might be more useful to wait until Thursday, when my right hon. Friend intends to make a statement.
  The programme to which I have referred costs money, even to the Soviet Union. We estimate that during the 1970s the Soviet defence budget grew by about 35 per cent. in real terms. It probably now accounts for between 12 per cent. and 14 per cent. of its gross national product. That is double the percentage spent by any Western nation. About 40 per cent. of the Soviet defence budget goes on procurement. Of that, expenditure on the Soviet air forces is nearly one and a half times that spent on ships, submarines and land armaments together. That is the background against which we must debate the Royal Air Force and its contribution to NATO defence.
  As the House knows, the growth in Soviet capabilities is not confined to its air forces. In the response to increased Soviet capabilities in all three environments the Royal Air Force's contribution to NATO's deterrent posture covers operations at sea and on land as well as in the air, and includes maritime control operations against submarines and surface vessels, airborne early warning, strike/attack, reconnaissance, ground support and air defence.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: The Minister mentioned the importance of the Royal Air Force's early warning system. What is he doing about it? Is he satisfied with the situation in terms of the vulnerability of that system during the present industrial dispute? What consideration is he giving to the maintenance of our early warning system when it is directly threatened by strikes?
  Mr. Blaker: I answered a question on that subject at Question Time.
  We believe that the Royal Air Force's traditional maintenance of a balanced air force, undertaking a wide variety of roles, is necessary because of our unique geographical position. The United Kingdom sits astride the sea and air reinforcement routes across the Atlantic to Europe. It is also an important mounting base for land, sea and air operations.
  The Royal Air Force serves all three NATO commanders and virtually all of our front line is assigned to NATO. All our front-line aircraft are now deployed in two operational commands—Strike Command in the United Kingdom and Royal Air Force Germany. Both the Commanders-in-Chief also hold NATO commands.
  Both the operational commands are backed by Royal Air Force Support Command, which undertakes all our flying training—about which I shall say something later—and our ground training, as well as providing engineering, signals, logistic and administrative support. The Royal Air Force contributes to defence in three main areas—the central region, the Eastern Atlantic and Channel, and the United Kingdom air defence region.
  In the central region the Royal Air Force maintains 12 aircraft squadrons, kept at a high level of readiness to counter any surprise attack. Its role then would be to disrupt an aggressor's tactics and deployments, and to impose the maximum possible delay, winning time for NATO to call forward reinforcements. These squadrons would be responsible for many varied tasks, including attacks on enemy communications and movements behind the lines; operations against airfields and command posts; air defence of 1(BR) Corps, supplemented by the Rapier and Bloodhound squadrons stationed in Germany; attacks on tanks and armed vehicles on the battlefield; mobility for men and equipment; and reconnaissance.
  The Royal Air Force's contribution in the Eastern Atlantic and Channel includes four squadrons of Nimrod long-range maritime patrol aircraft, which undertake anti-submarine warfare and the surveillance of surface vessels.
  Two squadrons of Phantoms are primarily earmarked to provide shore-based air defence for the Royal Navy, which could be supplemented by other United Kingdom air defence aircraft, and two squadrons of Buccaneers—armed with Martel missiles and laser-guided bombs—operate in the anti-shipping role.
  The third area in which the Royal Air Force has responsibilities is of course the United Kingdom air defence region. This area is extensive—about 500,000 square miles—and is of vital importance to NATO. Its strategic importance—deriving from the United Kingdom's role as a transit centre for transatlantic reinforcements, and from our own reinforcement forces stationed here—would make the United Kingdom an important target for air attack in the event of a conflict with the Warsaw Pact—and I have already discussed the strength of that threat.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: On the question of the United Kingdom air defence region, there is a view prevalent in the Royal Air Force that the Government have brought forward the debate to a date before the Secretary of State's statement to avoid answering questions on the Government's abandonment of the outgoing Labour Government's proposal to increase the number of air defence aircraft by 50 fighters and to cloak the abject

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  betrayal of the air defence of the United Kingdom by the withdrawal of the "Phantom" squadron of Lightnings about which the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement boasted when he first took office.
  Mr. Blaker: Anyone who holds that view, which I have not heard expressed, would be talking nonsense. The debate today has been chosen by the Opposition; it is an Opposition Supply day. However good may have been the hon. Gentleman's intentions, he did not score a bull's eye with that.
  Mr. Snape: In fairness to my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved), it should be pointed out that it is traditional for the Opposition to give up their Supply days to discuss the three Services when requested to do so by the Government. The first that I knew of the debate, as the Shadow Royal Air Force spokesman, was last Wednesday, so my hon. Friend has a valid point.
  Mr. Blaker: If the first that the Opposition spokesman knew of it was last Wednesday he cannot blame the Government. He should improve communications on his side of the House. It would be much better if the Opposition dropped this point; it is not a good one.
  Perhaps I may be allowed to get back to the discussion—
  Sir Albert Costain: If this is an Opposition day, why is there only one Back Bencher on the Opposition Benches?
  Mr. Blaker: That is a phenomenon that we are getting used to, on many subjects.
  With the permission of the Opposition, I should like to say a word now about our concepts of air defence. Because the nature of the threat is constantly changing, flexibility must be a prime aim. Our air defences must therefore consist of an integrated range of different systems available to meet the threat as it develops, and we achieve this by operating a system of three layers of defence.
  Because of improvements in both the range and the accuracy of stand-off weapons, it is essential to counter the air threat as far out as possible in the first instance before the intruders have a chance to release their weapons. Thus, the first layer of defence is the fighter screen provided by five squadrons of Phantoms and two of Lightnings.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East to say a word about the Lightning squadron. As was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on 20 January, although it is no longer our intention to form a permanent third Lightning squadron for United Kingdom air defence we plan to find the equivalent of a further squadron based on an augmented training unit which would be rapidly made operational in an emergency.
  The emergency squadron would be strengthened by the addition of air and ground crews serving in other posts without an essential war role but with recent Lightning experience. This squadron will enable us to maintain planned fighter numbers, and will capitalise on the work already done in preparing for a third Lightning squadron, but will be substantially cheaper than the establishment of a permanent squadron.
  The range and endurance of these aircraft are extended by air-to-air refuelling, and they are directed by information received from a network of airborne early warning radars, ground radars and shipborne radars. The
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  fighters aim to inflict the heaviest possible losses on incoming aircraft. Those that get through are then faced with the second layer—our area defences provided by Bloodhound medium range surface-to-air missiles, and finally the third layer, the Rapier point defence missiles, which protect those targets of particular importance and which will be supplemented in this role in due course by the Hawks armed with the Sidewinder AIM9L air-to-air missile.
  Hon. Members may be interested to know that, whereas in 1978 the Royal Air Force carried out about four interceptions of Soviet aircraft each week in the United Kingdom air defence region, last year the figure rose to nearly five a week. We are thus repeatedly reminded of the need for constant vigilance and readiness. I am happy to assure the House that our preparedness is reflected in the consistently high scores that we achieve in NATO's tactical evaluations. These are searching examinations of all facets of a station's ability to conduct air operations in simulated war conditions. Stations are graded for their performance in various categories, and our units in Germany are very much in the top league and enjoy the highest reputation amongst our allies in the central region.
  Only last week, and for the second year in succession, a Royal Air Force team won the "Best Allied Air Force Award" in the United States Air Force tactical air-lift contest. Likewise, our standard of performance in the many NATO exercises is very high, and in war time our pilots' ability to fly fast and low beneath enemy radar would amply repay the low-flying practice undertaken in this country.
  I should like here to emphasise that, contrary to what some people believe, low flying is not in itself inherently more dangerous than are other forms of Royal Air Force training, and the risk to the public is very small.
  Mr. Beith: I appreciate that low flying creates many difficulties, and my area has suffered a great deal from it over the years. We have benefited from a wider distribution of low flying, which we hope will be maintained, and many people understand that the pilot in the aircraft is risking his life on their behalf.
  Mr. Blaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He has been personally affected in his constituency, and I am sure that his remarks will be welcomed in the Ministry and in the Royal Air Force.
  Before leaving the subject of our contribution to NATO I should like to mention two areas of assistance to our allies. First, I emphasise the importance of NATO's decision in December 1979 to modernise our long-range theatre nuclear forces. Since the 1960s those forces—the ones capable of reaching the Soviet Union from bases in Europe—have consisted of United Kingdom Vulcan and United States F111 aircraft operating from the United Kingdom. These aircraft are becoming increasingly vulnerable to improved Soviet defences and to attacks by Soviet missiles on their bases, and they are approaching the end of their useful lives. Cruise missiles will ensure that NATO retains its LRTNF capability. It is to be seen as a modernisation of something that has existed for a long time.
  Secondly, I want to mention the signing in February of the memorandum of understanding between the United States and the United Kingdom on the purchase of Rapier. Work is already under way on the deal. As hon. Members

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  know, the Rapier units will be manned by RAF Regiment personnel, the costs being met under the terms of a published exchange of letters between the then Secretary of State for Defence and the United States Secretary of Defence of 14 and 15 July last year. This will be a very fine example of defence co-operation between our countries.
  In addition to the support of NATO, the Royal Air Force performs a number of other tasks of no small importance. Last year, for example, the air transport force undertook the dropping of grain and food supplies to mountain villages in Nepal during the famine; the Hong Kong squadron continued to stem the flow of illegal immigrants; and the Nimrod force contributed, as always, to fishery protection.
  The House would want me to mention also the achievements of the Royal Air Force search and rescue services, both at sea and on land. Although the permanent search and rescue units—the Royal Air Force helicopters and the Royal Air Force Nimrod on continuous standby—are established primarily for military purposes, most of the people rescued are civilians. If we take into account the other Service units involved in search and rescue—Royal Navy ships and helicopters, Royal Air Force marine craft and the mountain rescue teams—the scale of the service provided for the civil community becomes even greater. The statistics speak for themselves. In 1980, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy helicopters rescued 834 people, 758 of them civilians; and in the first five months of this year they saved 226 lives—28 Service and 198 civilians. That is a remarkable performance.
  I want to mention one outstanding example of the courage of our search and rescue helicopter crews, and that is the rescue from the Swedish vessel "Fineagle" in October last year. Conditions were appalling. An inherently dangerous cargo was on board. The helicopter crew saved 22 people, including three women and two children. I am proud to report that, in tribute to their bravery, Flight Lieutenant Lakey, the pilot, has been awarded the George Medal, Flight Lieutenant Campbell, the navigator, the Air Force Cross, and the remainder of the crew the Queen's Commendation.
  A regrettable case in 1980 involved the loss of a member of one of the helicopter crews. Master Air Loadmaster Bullock lost his life during a rescue attempt in the North Sea, again in very bad weather conditions. The tragedy of his death is a reminder to us of the dangers that our search and rescue teams are prepared to face, routinely, day after day. I want to pay tribute to the courage and the professionalism that save the lives of hundreds of people every year.
  I have spoken of the crucial role of air power, and of the Government's commitment to a strong and effective Royal Air Force. The Government's commitment is paralleled by the confidence both of the serving men and women of the Service and of the young people of our country in the Royal Air Force. Whereas in 1977–78, 778 Royal Air Force officers and 3,247 airmen and airwomen applied for premature release from their engagements, by 1980–81 the figures were down substantially to 193 and 1,038 respectively. That is a dramatic drop, extending the downward trend that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement reported to the House in the debate last year. Those statistics are indicators of the
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  encouraging level of retention of trained manpower in the Royal Air Force at the moment. The Government attach great importance to retention. Last year we introduced an additional optional retirement point for officers in their mid-forties to encourage the retention of those who, although keen to remain in the Service, did not want to commit themselves to the age of 55.
  I referred to the confidence of young people at large in the Royal Air Force. The evidence lies in the high number of applications for service in the Royal Air Force. The recruitment achievement in 1980–81 was excellent. More than 11,000 officers and other ranks were enlisted, representing 89 per cent. of the officer recruiting target, and 99 per cent. of the ground trades airmen target. The result is that the manning deficits that plagued the Royal Air Force in the later years of the 1970s and had such a depressing effect on morale are being progressively reduced.
  Of course, we have problems in certain areas. We need more engineering officers, for example, and we remain short of pilots. Competition for highly qualified recruits may become more difficult as the decade progresses, because the pool of school and university leavers will diminish for demographic reasons. It is important, therefore, to ensure that satisfaction with today's success in recruiting and retention does not tempt us to relax our determination to treat the Services fairly. I have no doubt that the full implementation of the recommendations of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body has been a source of confidence in the Forces.
  We recruit to the Royal Air Force in order to fill particular vacancies. With improved retention, and with the gradual reduction of our manning deficits in most areas, our recruiting targets have fallen. That means that the Service has to be more selective in its acceptance of candidates, and the result is that the new recruits to the RAF are of a very high overall quality. That is to the good. It used to be said that the Army equips men whereas the RAF mans equipment. The equipment the RAF mans incorporates some of the most sophisticated of today's technology. An enormous responsibility is vested in those who operate and maintain the airframes, engines, avionics, ground installations, test equipment and weapons that form the basic tools of the modern air force. To exercise that responsibility, we need young men and women not only of the requisite technical aptitudes but of judgment and maturity. I am glad that we are currently able to select such people against the highest standards.
  In last year's debate on the Royal Air Force, the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford exhorted the Select Committee on Defence to review pilot training in depth, and to discover the reason for wastage during training. He said:
  "I still believe that the in-service reviews do not come to grips with the real problems."—[Official Report, 23 June 1980; Vol. 987, c. 76.]
  I welcome the Committee's zeal in addressing itself to that question. Hon. Members who have read its report and the evidence on which it was based will no doubt feel that the Committee has fulfilled the wish of the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford for thoroughness. The Committee concluded that, as long as the emphasis remains on boosting the numbers of pilots qualifying for the fast jet force, the current pattern of RAF training must continue largely as it is and the costs of producing pilots to the required standard must be accepted. I am pleased that the

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  Committee was, as I read it, able to endorse RAF flying training methods. Of course, the Ministry of Defence seeks constantly to identify areas where we might improve our training methods to reduce costs and wastage.
  At the Committee's suggestion, we are examining whether there is any scope to alter the pattern of helicopter pilot training. But the general message of the Committee was clear—the sophistication of modern, fast jet aircraft, and the demands of the role of the RAF, set requirements for pilot ability that can only be met by rigorous training, and training that by comparison with civil aviation is inevitably expensive.
  The Committee's inquiry was prompted by the shortage of pilots in the RAF, to which I referred earlier. That shortage is still with us, and will remain, I am afraid, for a while longer. Eliminating the pilot deficit is not simply a question of higher recruiting. Our ability to recruit candidates who show sufficient potential to complete flying training is, of course, one limiting factor in reducing the deficit, but recruiting targets are themselves limited to the size of our flying training machine, and by the rate at which front-line squadrons can efficiently absorb new pilots on their first tours. Nor is expansion of our flying training capacity a simple matter. We should need, for example, more flying instructors, thereby taking training skill and expertise from the front lines. The present pilot shortage is manageable. By giving priority to the manning of the front line, we can sustain more than the minimum aircrew-aircraft ratios—in every case better than one—to-one—and in an emergency we have firm plans to return to the front line squadron pilots with recent operational experience and now filling flying training or ground appointments.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Will the Minister ask the personnel department to produce an undoctored computer printout of those in the RAF receiving flying pay? When he receives that statement, he will see that about 5,000 are in receipt of flying pay, of whom 4,000 are qualified pilots. Bearing in mind that the order of battle of the RAF is 650 aircraft, will he critically examine the repeated claim-—notwithstanding the findings of the Select Committee on the evidence presented to it—about pilot shortage, yet 4,000 people are receiving flying pay for flying 650 aircraft?
  Mr. Blaker: I pay tribute to my staff for advising me that the hon. Gentleman might raise that question. I have made some preliminary inquiries, but have not examined the matter exhaustively. I have had some answers and will pursue the matter further.
  I should not have made specific reference to my next subject had it not been for the regret expressed by the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East, in last year's debate about the small amount of attention paid to the role of women in the Royal Air Force. The Women's Royal Air Force is fully integrated into the Service, and to pay tribute to its contribution specifically—while I readily do so—is in fact to highlight a discrimination which the Royal Air Force itself recognises in only one or two areas. Women are employed in all branches and trades open to men, with the exception of those that are concerned directly with combat or demand physical strength.
  The regular members of the RAF are supplemented by the RAF Volunteer Reserve and by the Royal Auxiliary Air Force which undertake various important support tasks.
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  I should also like to pay tribute to the loyalty of the many civilian staff who support the RAF and contribute crucially to its efficient operation. It is all too rarely recognised that most of these are "producers" in a wide variety of trades and specifications. They work alongside their uniformed colleagues and they are rightly proud of the part that they play in keeping the Royal Air Force flying and maintaining its standards.
  I turn briefly to the major re-equipment programme under way for the RAF. I shall deal with it under three headings—air defence, overland operations, and maritime operations.
  To counter the increasing conventional air threat to this country, we have in hand a major programme of improvements to our air defences. The existing ground radars and control facilities are being progressively replaced and improved over the next few years. The Shackleton airborne early warning force will be replaced by the far more capable Nimrod. One development aircraft has already undertaken successful flight trials and the second is due to fly in August with full mission avionic equipment.
  The Nimrod AEW will provide a major United Kingdom contribution to the NATO AEW force when it comes into service in a few years' time. The capabilities of the new aircraft will enable us to combat more effectively aircraft such as the Backfire. The Nimrod AEW will detect these attackers far out to sea and enable fighters to interept them much earlier.
  The main element of our future active air defences will, of course, be the Tornado F2. Three development aircraft are now flying and good progress is being made. The first batch of 18 aircraft has been authorised out of a planned buy of 165 aircraft. We are confident that the F2 will be an excellent interceptor upon entry into service in the mild-1980s The aircraft's main armament will be the Sky Flash medium range air-to-air missile and the complementary AIM9L short-range missile.
  Air-to-air refuelling represents an extremely cost-effective way of keeping fighters on combat patrol. Refuelling tankers are thus a force multiplier and we are planning to increase our tanker force with the introduction of nine ex-civil VC 10 aircraft, which are now undergoing conversion to the tanker role and are expected to begin to come into service in the next two years.
  For overland operations, the Tornado GR1 will, of course, be the keystone of our capability for at least the next 20 years, with its ability to operate in all weathers and at night. The aircraft has entered service at the Tornado tri-national training establishment at RAF Cottesmore. This unit will do the initial conversion training for crews of the German and Italian air forces as well as our own. Weapons training is done on a national basis and the delivery of the first aircraft to the weapons conversion unit at RAF Honington is imminent. Reports from our instructor pilots and navigators at RAF Cottesmore are, without exception, full of praise for the aircraft, and especially for its handling qualities. Weapon delivery trials are also producing some excellent results in terms of accuracy and reliability.
  The Tornado will carry a full range of current conventional air-to-surface and self-defence armament. In addition to existing weapons it is intended that it will carry the advanced airfield attack weapon JP233. The United States decision to withdraw from this important joint project is of course extremely disappointing. I hope,

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  however, that it will reconsider its position. We remain convinced that this weapon offers a very cost-effective solution to the problem of airfield attack.
  A major task of our aircraft operating in support of ground force will be to attack enemy tanks. To counter improvements in their armour protection we are now seeking a weapon which will offer an even better performance than the existing BL755 cluster bomb.
  The House is aware that, in pursuing the equipment programme I have outlined and other aspects of the equipment programme, a serious problem began to arise last year over the containment of expenditure within the cash available. This has occurred because, with the falling away of civil orders in a time of recession, industry's rate of progress on defence contracts has been much faster than in previous years and this in turn has resulted in greater payments than were allowed for in our Estimates.
  Even the harsh measures taken during 1980–81 through the moratorium and the period of stringent discipline which followed it did not entirely overcome this cash problem. Our early forecasts for 1981–82 indicate that this unusually high rate of industrial progress is still being maintained and there is growing evidence that we shall face a cash problem similar to last year's.
  Action is therefore being taken to restrain expenditure and we are maintaining a close scrutiny of existing commitments and new starts. We shall also be seeking proposals and assistance from industry to control the levels of resources and manpower being applied to defence contracts. It is in the mutual interest of both industry and the Services that the rate of industrial progress on defence contracts should be regulated in order to avoid potential difficulties on this account, and we therefore look to industry for full co-operation in dealing with this problem.
  Because of these difficulties, we shall also have to continue with some restrictions on flying activity. This is less than ideal, but I assure the House that RAF crews will still fly more hours than the minimum recommended by NATO, and we shall not entertain the slighest risk of endangering safety standards.
  The introduction of new aircraft and equipment and the maintenance of a modern and effective air force are bound to produce short-term problems, as I have outlined. These problems have to be relieved by temporary restrictions. However, I stress that these are short-term problems, for the Government are determined to overcome them and to protect their investment in the future of the Royal Air Force. The RAF has a vital and ever more sophisticated role to play in the defence of this country, as well as in the central region and on the flanks of NATO. Hon. and right hon. Members of all parties will join me in paying tribute to the quality and loyalty of the men and women serving today. From what I have said of the roles and equipment of the Royal Air Force, the House will see clearly that we shall continue to need people of the highest calibre to man it.
  4.58 pm
  Mr. Frank Allaun: I accuse the Secretary of State, the Ministry of Defence and the Secretary of State's predecessor of fraud. I accuse them of fraudulent accounts of arms spending. They are conning the public into believing that the vast increase in arms spending is far less than it really is. I challenge the
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  Minister to refute the charge that I shall make and substantiate. Fantastic as is the growth in the military bills, they have been, in reality, enormously greater. Nearly £1 billion of taxpayers' money is involved, as I intend to show. My figures have been supplied by the Defence Estimates and by the statisticians of the Library.
  Let us consider the last year for which figures are available, which is 1980–81. The total bill in cash terms rose from £9·1 billion to £11·4 billion, an increase of about £2·3 billion. I naturally and at once admit that inflation rose by 16·3 per cent. in that year according to the retail price index. However, the increase in military spending rose in cash terms by 24 per cent. That is 7·7 per cent. more than the RPI increase.
  The Government claim that their spending in real terms rose by only 4·9 per cent. "Only" is a word which I would hesitate to use. The question is why there is that difference between a 4·9 per cent. increase and a 7·7 per cent. increase. Why is there that discrepancy amounting to the little sum of £215 million in a single year? I stress that that scandalous deceit has been going on for years. In other words, when the Ministry of Defence reduces its growth to an increase in real terms, it allows itself the excuse of an inflation higher than that for lesser mortals, indeed, for everyone else in the community. How do the Ministry and the Government get round it? "Ah", they say, "the cost of weapons and of the forces has increased faster than the increased cost of other things."
  The truth is that nearly two thirds—62 per cent., in fact—of the arms budget goes on arms and not on men. The more serious racket is taking place in weaponry. For example, a nuclear-powered fleet submarine cost £140 million in the 1980 Defence Estimates, but the following year for the same vessel it had risen to £175 million—an increase of 25 per cent.
  I shall now illustrate a case in which the Ministry of Defence gets more bangs for the buck. The Sea Wolf guided missile costs three and a half times the earlier Sea Cat. Why should the Minister be allowed to disguise that by pretending that that more effective and more destructive weapon is more costly only because of general inflation?
  That would be like the Secretary of State for the Environment saying that his Department is not subject to the normal rules of inflation and that because land prices or interest rates have risen sharply and above the increase in other prices they must be ignored when considering the real expenditure on housing—which, of course, he does not do. Why should the Defence Minister alone be allowed a different method of accounting from everyone else? Why should the people in his Department be allowed to pretend that their expenditure is increasing less quickly than it really is? The Secretary of State is not God. Why should he be considered sacrosanct?
  Forces' pay has risen, and rightly so. I differ strongly with my hon. Friend the Member for Fife Central (Mr. Hamilton) who talks about Service pay as compared with nurses' pay. Service men are entitled to a decent standard of living. Contrary to occasional accusations from Conservative Members of Parliament that Labour wants to hit Service men's pay, we say that they are entitled to decent living conditions and that they should have—as they have in most of Western Europe—trade unions to help them to obtain that. Our objection is to other people's real wages being kept down.
  The Forces' chiefs have had to raise pay rates to secure recruits, although I admit that unemployment is now the

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  best recruiting agent. It may come as a surprise to some hon. Members to learn that Service men's pay has risen by 82 per cent. in the past five years, as compared with 73 per cent. for a civilian's average earnings. Therefore, the Forces, which are supposed to have had such marvellous treatment, have only 2 per cent. per annum more in pay increase than civilians. I flatly deny that that provides an excuse for the greater increase in the arms bill.
  Therefore, the increase of 4·9 per cent. in real terms in 1980–81 is in fact 7·7 per cent. in real terms. All this at a time when housing is being cut by 51 per cent. in three years, when hospitals are being forced to close through shortage of money, when doctors, of all people, are unemployed and when councils are being forced to cut home helps, school dinners and meals on wheels.
  There is no need to cut any of those services. If we acted sensibly, as the Japanese have done, and devoted 0·9 per cent. of our gross national product to arms instead of 5·2 per cent. as we are doing, we could expand all those vital services. Even if we reduced only our share of gross national product spent on arms to the average for West European NATO forces, that would provide, the Minister told me in a recent parliamentary reply, £3·6 billion a year for other and better purposes. That is £3,600 million a year. What could we not do with that sum every year, using it for the things that we really want?
  I need hardly add that it is because Japan has not wasted her research and development expenses on war preparations, as compared with the £1·7 billion a year which we are wasting, that she has captured the markets of the world in motor cycles, motor cars, televisions, electronics, radio, cameras and even shipbuilding. No wonder we are losing customers.
  At the time of the campaign to wind up our military bases east of Suez, some of us knew that it would come about because our country could not afford them—not because of the eloquence of the Opposition, but for bread and butter reasons. Similarly, I say today that the economies in the Royal Navy and the cancellation of the £5 billion on the Trident will both have to come about for the same reason.
  The current issue is whether to reduce the Royal Navy or to cancel Trident. As there is less likelihood of the Royal Navy triggering off a nuclear war Labour would undoubtedly scrap Trident. However much of the £5 billion has been spent, possibly £300 million, £400 million or £500 million by 1983 when we come into office, it will be scrapped. I am grateful to the Leader of the Opposition and to the party for taking that line. For my money, we should take both steps for reasons which I shall explain.
  Will the Minister tell me what possible advantage there can be to Russia either to incinerate Britain or to invade us, unless it was clear to her that Britain was the source of an imminent launch of a nuclear bomb on her territory? I suggest that there would be no advantage.
  The Secretary of State has given us the oft-repeated story that we had 30 years of peace thanks to NATO's nuclear bomb. Yet throughout the world today there is more fear and more talk of nuclear war than there has ever been in history. The reason is obvious. It is because we are much nearer the brink; it is because the nuclear arms race, like all previous arms races, is taking us daily towards war. If people are not sensible of that, they will be sensible of nothing.
  My fear is that the two super Powers will not give up their nuclear bombs and missiles for a good many years
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  ahead. I say that with deep regret. As we have been told, the knowledge is there and cannot be forgotten. Even if a complete ban were agreed on, I suspect that both. Powers would keep a few hidden away just in case the other side cheated. But every other nation—especially the second-class military Powers such as ourselves--could afford to give up their nuclear weapons. They would be less vulnerable, not more vulnerable, if they followed the example of Canada. Canada has divested herself of her nuclear weapons on both the European continent and the American continent.
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: Why does the hon. Gentleman think that the Israelis chose to take out the Iraqi nuclear reactor if it was not because of their absolute fear that Iraq might have nuclear weapons that could destroy Israel? By the same token, why did not Israel make her own nuclear efforts available for inspection? It was for the same reason—that she intends to maintain her national security.
  Mr. Allaun: The answer is that I do not support the bombing of the Iraqi nuclear installations, nor do I support the setting up of a nuclear bomb in Israel. If we are to prevent these things happening, it is best for us to have clean hands and to see that the International Atomic Energy Agency does its job more efficiently than it is doing it at present.
  Thanks to Duncan Campbell of the New Statesman, we know now that the Government's report on American nuclear bases here was an understatement. There are no fewer than 103 such bases in our small, highly populated, island. This makes us a priority target for extinction by way of retaliation if war should break out.
  To Tory Members who are still thinking in terms of winning a nuclear war, as some of them clearly are, I say there would be no winners or, indeed, survivors. Our aim must not be to win a nuclear war but to prevent it—a very different matter. We certainly do not prevent it by spending £5 billion or £6 billion on four Trident submarines which, by design—or, more likely by accident—could land us right in it.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Would the hon. Gentleman reflect on the example of those countries that were contiguous to the Soviet Union and weak, such as Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and, more recently, Afghanistan? By virtue of their weakness, they were all invaded. In some instances they lost their sovereignty and independence totally. In the case of Finland, the country was taken apart.
  Mr. Allaun: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Soviet troops moved out and that today Finland is an independent country. Moreover, there are other countries adjacent to Russia—I am thinking of Sweden and Austria—which are neutral and in no way involved with nuclear weapons. They refuse to touch them. As a result, those countries are safer and less vulnerable today than they would be if they were part of NATO and nuclear-armed.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: Does my hon. Friend accept that one of the more authoritative comments on the notion of Russian aggression and expansion was provided on 3 March by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Clark) who, as my hon. Friend knows, is a vice-chairman of the Conservative Party defence committee? The hon. Gentleman said that since 1948 there has been

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  a continuing retreat in Eastern Europe by Russia. That is contrary to the views held by most of his Conservative colleagues. In that debate he produced specific arguments to show that Russian influence, far from increasing, had diminished.
  Mr. Allaun: I have recently been in Austria, Finland and Norway—countries far nearer to Russia than we are. They will not have nuclear weapons on their soil. I shall be coming in a minute to more important allies such as Belgium and Holland. I can tell the Minister that those countries will never take the cruise missiles, and I think that we shall be joining them very soon.
  Tory Members are still thinking in terms of winning the war, whereas our job is to prevent it. We shall certainly not prevent it by spending all this money on Trident submarines—by having them we would be more likely to be involved in a war than if we did not have them—nor by deploying 160 cruise missiles, widely dispersed in times of crisis, because they would not be confined to their two bases.
  That would make our whole country a target, a veritable sitting duck, if by design or accident a nuclear weapon dropped on Moscow or Leningrad tonight. The Russians would not sit back and set up the Russian equivalent of a Royal Commission of inquiry to find out where the bomb had come from. They would wipe out all possible sources for the bomb by way of retaliation, and the Minister knows very well that we should be the first in that list, because of our nuclear armament.
  It emerged last week that it is possible for each of the American's 42 Polaris submarines to fire their missiles without the consent of headquarters command. When I put the matter to the Prime Minister, she replied:
  "The British Polaris submarines are firmly under our control".—[Official Report, 16 June 1981; Vol. 6, c. 857.]
  I just wonder in what way they are under our control. Perhaps we could have it explained to us. These are of an almost identical system to the American Trident. Someone on board one of those submarines might misinterpret a signal. There might be a crazy submarine commander. I know that other members of the crew have to be involved; it is not just the commander alone. Nevertheless, it is possible that if the crew were convinced that a signal they had received was genuine and from the top, they would use—
  Mr. Wilkinson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is not this an Adjournment debate on the Royal Air Force?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Yes, it is.
  Mr. Allaun: The remarks that I have been making about the fraud in defence spending apply mainly to the Royal Air Force, because it has more equipment than the other forces. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will not try to silence me by means of a phoney point of order.
  Mr. Brezhnev has made strenuous efforts to get negotiations going--unless hon. Members do not read the newspapers or do not take seriously anything that Mr. Brezhnev says. Mr. Reagan has replied, yet the press reports disbelief in Bonn that he is serious about those
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  negotiations. I other words, it is believed that Mr. Reagan is playing for time while the cruise preparations are speeded up.
  On "Panorama", Mr. Weinberger declined to answer the question when asked whether he believed in detente. He countered it by saying that he did not know what detente meant. It means relaxation of East-West tension, and all our lives, our children's and our grandchildren's lives depend upon it. I hope that no one in the House will forget that. How one achieves detente by installing Trident and cruise is beyond my mind and those of most other people.
  The more bellicose our Prime Minister and the American President become, the greater and faster the peace movement grows. Recently, the public opinion poll conducted by Marplan and printed in The Guardian showed not only that only 41 per cent. approve of our having cruise missiles as against 50 per cent. who disapprove, but that opposition to Trident is even more striking, with only 32 per cent. approving while 53 per cent. disapprove, the remainder being "don't knows".
  Throughout Europe, the opposition to cruise mounts higher and higher. I recently attended a meeting in Oslo of the heads of the Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian, Danish and British Labour Parties, at which Ministers, Prime Ministers and Shadow Ministers were all determined that they would not have cruise on their soil. If the British Government go ahead with it, they will know that in so doing they are opposing the will of the majority of the population not only of Britain but of the whole of Western Europe. The Labour Party believes in both multilateral and unilateral arms reduction.
  Talks have been going on for seven years in Vienna. I hope that the Minister will not look so worried. I am not worried. He seems to be the worried man here at the moment.
  Mr. Blaker: I am only worried by the multitude of fallacies in the hon. Gentleman's argument.
  Mr. Allaun: That is a matter of opinion. What is a fallacy to me is not to the hon. Gentleman, and vice versa.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Talk about the Royal Air Force.
  Mr. Allaun: In Vienna, for seven years, the Governments of the world have been discussing conventional arms reduction, which involves the Royal Air Force. After seven years of negotiations, they have failed to reduce conventional weapons by a single rifle, never mind a single aircraft. That is why the Labour Party believes that action must be taken without waiting until everyone agrees. We should take the lead by getting rid, not of all our weapons, but of all our nuclear weapons.
  I conclude by saying that the opponents of East-West detente are opponents of peace itself.
  5.24 pm
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: I shall not seek to follow many of the comments of the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun), but I remind him of the truism that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. The day that our country is not vigilant to the dangers around it, I at least will be fearful for my freedom.
  In the Royal Air Force debate last year, I raised the question whether it was feasible for the Royal Air Force to insure its aircraft in peacetime.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman said that we must be vigilant, and so on. Does he equate that with having nuclear weapons? Does he mean that we must have nuclear weapons to be vigilant and defend our freedom? That seems a very strange argument.
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I do not wish to break up my speech and turn immediately to the subject of nuclear weapons. I shall touch on them later in my speech. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will stay in the Chamber to hear what I have to say.
  I wish to pursue the question of insuring Royal Air Force aircraft. When I raised the question last year, I was told that it was a matter for the Treasury. Indeed, a reply that I received from the Minister of State, Treasury, informed me:
  "It is long-established Government policy not to pay a commercial insurance premium unless there is a statutory or contractual obligation or a particular advantage, such as specialist services, over and above the possible receipt of compensation for loss."—[Official Report, 7 July 1980; Vol. 988, c. 72.]
  That answer, no doubt, is the considered wisdom of the Treasury and no doubt it has stood the Treasury in good stead for many years. The Defence Estimates this year, however, show that the Royal Air Force lost 24 aircraft, with a probable value of between £100 million and £150 million. I therefore wonder why the Treasury sets its face so resolutely against a proposal, put to me by an insurance company, to produce some form of insurance which would mean that when aircraft were lost something would come back to the State which would at least help the Royal Air Force to find the cost of replacement aircraft.
  We know that many of the aircraft that were lost had been built many years ago. Those replacing them will have to be built at today's prices, which will be considerably higher than the original cost.
  The point about insurance and the longevity of aircraft is forcefully borne out by the Defence Estimates, which make it clear that no fewer than seven squadrons in the Royal Air Force are currently flying Vulcan B2 aircraft which I believe first saw service in the 1950s. I doubt whether the designers of the Vulcan in those days imagined that it would be flying in first line service in the 1980s. Nevertheless, it is. I believe that that says a great deal for its design and engineering and for the quality of its manufacture. By the same token, I see that we have a squadron of Shackleton aircraft, which are about the same age, and that we still have two squadrons of Canberras which I suspect are even older, certainly in design terms.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Last but not least, the Devon and Pembroke aircraft, which are even older, and which I hope will be replaced by Jetstreams, soldier on in a communications role at Northolt in my constituency.
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: It was perhaps a mistake to give way, as I wish to concentrate on Canberras and I am now being carried off into Devons and Pembrokes. I shall haul my speech back to Canberras, as I wish to make a specific point to the Minister.
  When I visited Short's in Belfast two or three weeks ago, I was delighted to see two Canberra PR9s on the runway, both of which had received a 1000-hour overhaul at the factory, and to be told that between 1955 and 1980 Short's had built no fewer than 200 Canberras of various marks. I was delighted to see those two Canberras on the
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  runway, looking very smart in their new paint, but I was sad to be told by the directors of Short's that the work currently being carried out by the company in overhauling Canberras is the only work that that aircraft company now receives from the Procurement Executive of the Ministry of Defence.
  I was equally sad to hear that the directors fear that the further five Canberras which need an almost complete rebuild would not come their way. They do not know that, of course. Therefore, I am using this debate to persuade the Minister that the five Canberras that were originally built at Short's in Belfast should go back to that company to be rebuilt. I stress that if this is the only interface left between Short's and the Procurement Executive, of which the Minister is now the top adornment, this must be his chance to do Short's a good turn and to ensure that the company, which proudly claims to have been the first aircraft manufacturer in the world, continues to have a place in the thinking of the Ministry of Defence.
  We have been told that the statement on the defence review will be made on Thursday. Given that and the fact that, rather unusually, the first of the Service debates is taking place today on the Royal Air Force, I am forced to conclude—I hope not without some foundation—that the Royal Air Force will escape most, if not all, of the effects of the review. It seems clear that we would hardly he debating this Service if drastic changes were to be imposed on it as a result of the review. I have made only a guess, but I hope that I am right. The Royal Air Force is a highly efficient and compact force. It would be impossible to reduce it any further without considerably damaging its operational effectiveness.
  The ending of the old transport command structure was the right step to take in peacetime. The changes that have been made to rationalise the Royal Air Force and to make it such an efficient front-line service have been made, by and large, along the right lines. Although I accept that there was a need to slim down, I nevertheless express some disappointment with the Defence Estimates and the comments on the Royal Air Force. I read the paragraph on "Crusader 1980"—the Territorial Army exercise that was planned to show how quickly it could be deployed in Western Europe—with particular regret.
  The paragraph contains no mention of how the Territorial Army was moved to Western Europe. Nor is anything said about the plan—which I believe exists in the Ministry of Defence—to use the airliners of British Airways as troopers in an emergency. That point needs emphasising because British Airways recently told me that although it knows that it has been earmarked for the task, no physical exercise using airliners—as far as British Airways. knows—has been carried out.
  Perhaps the contingency plans are so well drawn and understood—at least by the Ministry of Defence and by the Royal Air Force chiefs—that they do not think that there is any need to see if the plans work in practice as well as they do on paper. If the proposition to use British Airways airliners in that important role is to be credible, some sort of exercise should surely have been carried out.
  In view of the remarks by the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) about pilot shortage, I am in a slight quandary, but if it is true that the Royal Air Force is short of pilots, what thought is being given to using the services of the 300 British Airways pilots who are sitting at home on full pay and who have no aircraft to fly? Indeed, they are not likely to fly any aircraft in the

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  near future. We have a pool of 300 highly-trained pilots. As they are drawing full salaries from British Airways, I should have thought that a proposition could have been put to them directly, or through British Airways, to bring them into some form of service with the Royal Air Force.
  Such a proposition would help to tide the RAF over the present deficiency. Once those deficiencies have passed through the system, there will no longer be a need for such pilots. However, at present there is a shortage and we should surely try to tap that pool of experienced men.
  Unless it is possible to conceive of a European conflict that does not involve Russia and America, NATO, with its needs as the defensive shield of Western Europe, will need to make the first call on each of its members' defence forces. Thus the air defence of Britain must be seen in terms of defending part of NATO's overall land mass. Although that does not preclude a fiercely British point of view, it gives our air defences a NATO dimension, which, in terms of the northern flank of NATO or of safeguarding our air space to enable reinforcements to be brought in from North America, seems commensurate with our responsibilities to the treaty.
  Given those responsibilities to Western defence, the great mass of my constituents did not oppose the suggestion that ground-lauched cruise missiles should be stationed at RAF Greenham Common. At Question Time and in today's debate some Opposition Members have implied that the majority of the British people are against such missiles. I keep a close tally of the figures, and to date I have received 28 letters from constituents who oppose the stationing of missiles.
  I attended the Easter Monday rally against the missiles, which was held near Greenham air base. I did my best to count and I discovered that 2,500 to 3,000 people were there. Judging by the stalls on display, many of those there did not come from my constituency. There were stalls from Southampton and Abingdon, to name but two places that caught my eye. Only last week there was another meeting at Newbury, at which 400 people were present. I have 82,000 constituents.
  Given the small number of letters that I have received from those who are opposed to cruise missiles and given those two events, I can conclude only that the great majority of my constituents do not oppose the stationing of cruise missiles. They recognise that the defence of Western Europe is of prime importance to everyone. They do not see why Berkshire should expect to escape its proper part in that defensive structure.
  I salute my constituents for their good sense, loyalty and patriotism. I ask all those who are so sure that the nation is opposed to such missiles to take note of what I have said. I have been talking about those who are most affected by such missiles.
  Mr. Heffer rose—
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: My constituents will have those missiles close to their front doors. Nevertheless, they adopt a strong and patriotic attitude towards the defence of Western Europe.
  Mr. Heffer rose—
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman, and he will not browbeat me into doing so. I
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  wish to raise several points that have concerned me since the announcement about cruise missiles. RAF Greenham Common is a Royal Air Force base that is now a standby base for the United States Air Force. It is to be protected by the Royal Air Force Regiment, using Rapier ground-to-air missiles. The base therefore belongs to the Royal Air Force and is to be defended by it. To what extent can the base still be used by the Royal Air Force in an emergency, or is it now earmarked solely for the use of the United States Air Force?
  I ask that question because of the curious circumstances surrounding the cruise missile and its use. As I understand it, cruise missiles are the second ground-fired United States missiles to be used in the United Kingdom. Thirty years ago we had Thor missiles. However, while the Thor missiles were held on a dual key arrangement, cruise missiles are to remain the property of the United States Government, although committed to NATO.
  The missiles can be fired only with the consent of the American President. However, I learn from the documents issued by the Minstry of Defence that although the American President can give consent for the firing of cruise missiles, the British Government have the right to refuse that consent. Thus it may fairly be said that any decision to use cruise missiles must be an Anglo-American decision.
  My hon. Friend may be aware that there is some uncertainty about how the British veto, if it is to be used, will operate. Will the chain of command go from the American President to the British Prime Minister or the Cabinet, or will it go from the American President back through the NATO command? If it is true that the question whether cruise missiles will be fired from this country is an Anglo-American decision, is it also true that it would be a German-American decision if missiles were to be fired from West Germany and an Italo-American one if missiles were to be fired from Italy?
  I pose these questions because if cruise missiles are to play their part in the defences of the West and to be a credible form of deterrent, their credibility lies in the fact that they will be fired from a wide area of Western Europe. Clearly, if there are so many different decision-making points, that credibility could be impaired unless the decision is made clearer.
  Mr. Heffer: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: I have made it clear to the hon. Gentleman that I do not intend to give way. I hope he will forgive me, but if I lose the track of my speech he will be the poorer and so will I.
  The next point is the initiation of the use of missiles. Is the request for the use of Cruise missiles to come from SACEUR?—the supreme Allied Commander Europe? Does he put the proposition to his NATO commanders or to the Governments involved before seeking the consent of the United States President?
  Should the United States' President refuse his consent to the firing of the missiles, does that free the countries which have the missiles stationed on their territories from the further command of SACEUR? It would clearly be unreasonable for SACEUR to continue in command if he could not fire the nuclear weapons under his control when other countries in the Western Alliance possessed nuclear deterrents of their own which, presumably, they would want to bring into use. Otherwise, SACEUR would not

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  have made his original request for cruise missiles to be fired. If I am right and if SACEUR is refused the American President's consent, does that mean that NATO devolves into a series of national commands? What is the contingency plan?
  I raise these questions because I do not know the answers to them and can find no source material which will provide those answers for me. I also raise them because, if the credibility of cruise missiles is to remain at the highest level, the NATO command structure is of the highest importance.
  These are complicated questions and they may not easily be answered by the Minister in the context of the debate. On the other hand, they are important not only for the credibility of ground-launched cruise missiles in this country but for the credibility of NATO in possession of this new type of nuclear missile.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Anthony Nelson.
  Mr. Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is usual in debates to call speakers alternately from each side of the House. That has been a convention for hundreds of years. I wonder whether yow propose to break that convention.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The question about who is called is entirely at the discretion of the Chair. The House has been full on one side for the whole afternoon. It has not been quite so full on the other side. Mr. Nelson.
  Mr. Heffer: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If you are going to start that in the House, we can point to various precedents where Members from both sides have wandered into the Chamber at different times, at the request of the Whips, to speak. Some hon. Members have been in the Chamber throughout the debate, including my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr). In my view, there is no question but that there must be a fair allocation of speakers from both sides of the House.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman will contain himself for a moment, I am sure that he will find that the situation will be exactly as he has outlined.
  Mr. Heffer: You have called two Members successively from one side, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Heffer: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that we must call for Mr. Speaker. I protest most strongly. My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston, who has now left the Chamber in disgust, served right through the war in the Royal Air Force and is extremely knowledgeable about the RAF. He has not been called and two hon. Gentlemen on the Government Benches have been called one after the other.
  The hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) was a member of the Irish Fusiliers when in national service, and some of us served in the Royal Air Force. I protest. If you insist, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we must get the Speaker here to sort this matter out. It is not good enough.
  Mr. Cryer: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There are occasions when one side of the House is empty for prolonged periods. On those rare occasions, when no other Member is in the Chamber, two hon. Members on the same side are called. My hon. Friend the
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  Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) has been present throughout the debate without missing a minute of it. He has not been called. Of course, the Deputy Speaker has discretion about who he calls among the competing Members on both sides wishing to speak, but there is a strong convention of the House, which Mr. Speaker has reaffirmed repeatedly, that hon. Members should be called alternately from the Opposition and Government Benches and not in succession when other hon. Members have been waiting to speak.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) has been present, but he does not have his name on the list and he had not risen to speak until just now. That was the first intimation that I had that he intended to take part in the debate. In those circumstances, it would have been my intention to call him next.
  4.48 pm
  Mr. Anthony Nelson: I welcome the opportunity to speak, among the many Members, especially on the Government Benches, who wish to contribute. I hope that my speech will not exclude any other hon. Member who wishes to speak.
  My preliminary remarks affect my constituency and the future of the former RAF station of Thorney Island. The station was abandoned when the former Transport Command was dismembered under the Labour Government in 1976. It is currently used as a reception centre for Vietnamese refugees. That use under lease will come to an end in the near future.
  Various alternative defence uses have been considered. It was finally decided to use the former RAF station at Thorney as barracks for Army units, possibly the Engineers. This was widely welcomed locally because it was regarded as a sensible use of a considerable and valuable national asset which was tailor-made for a defence purpose. However, I am concerned that the station itself is in a bad state of disrepair, and I hope that work will be undertaken urgently to restore it to the necessary state for reoccupation by Army units.
  I also express the even more fervent hope that the decision to reoccupy Thorney Island will not be affected by the defence review that is currently under way. I say that for three reasons. The first is that the White Paper forecasts an increase in Regular Army personnel to more than 164,000 this year, and recruitment is at its highest peak for almost 18 years. These new recruits and existing Army manpower will need accommodation.
  Secondly, the reoccupation of Thorney Island and its continued defence use is tangible evidence that our defences are being rebuilt after years of neglect and disbandment by the previous Labour Government. Thirdly, as I have already said, it would be an enormous waste of resources. For all those reasons, I hope that the decision to reoccupy Thorney Island by Army units will not be changed.
  I turn to the main part of my speech. I shall direct my remarks almost entirely to the subject of deployment. This is an important aspect of defence, because in my judgment there are four separate components of a defence capability. First, we must have the people. Secondly, we must have the weapons. Thirdly, we must deploy them in the right place. Fourthly, we must have credibility; that is to say we must be prepared to use them. We cannot be defended unless these four components are brought into play.

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  I wish to concentrate on the third aspect—deployment. The traditional and accepted deployment of our Armed Forces, particularly the RAF, has in recent years become increasingly anomalous. The trend away from wider international deployment should be reversed, and for new and good reasons we should adopt a more international approach in our deployment.
  There are three spheres of deployment. The first is the direct defence of the United Kingdom. The second is collective defence through NATO. The third is what I would term our wider defence interest. I shall describe each in more detail.
  The first two spheres rightly remain priority responsibilities. They have not changed radically in terms of the threat posed or the strategy to be applied. There has been a quantitive change in the threat posed to both the United Kingdom and NATO, but the qualitative nature of that threat has not changed radically.
  However, I hope to show that in the international sphere of defence interests there have been major changes. When looking at the initial area of the direct defence of the United Kingdom, it is true to say that internal terrorism has been reduced, but, sadly, we all know that it is still prevalent in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom on occasions. Improvements to the United Kingdom-based defences, particularly our air defences, are in hand, but although the external threat has increased, it has not changed radically in its nature.
  Reference has already been made to Rapier ground-to-air missiles that now enhance our air defence capability and the RAF stations in Britain. I was pleased to hear the Minister refer to the steps that are being taken to improve our air defences. However, while those steps are being taken, and while the threat that we face has increased in numerical terms, the nature of the threat itself has not changed and the priority that we accord to the deployment of part of our forces in defence of the United Kingdom must remain.
  Between 500 and 600 heavy and medium Soviet and Warsaw Pact bombers are now available for attacking Western Europe. Against that threat, it is proper that we make adequate defence provision. Nevertheless, in the context of the direct defence of the United Kingdom, I hope that it can be accepted that the nature of the threat has not changed radically.
  I turn to the question of collective defence through NATO. Paragraph 113 of the White Paper states:
  "NATO remains the essential framework of Western defence and the key to the United Kingdom's own national security".
  The White Paper graphically illustrates the imbalance of forces in Central Europe. In the case of aircraft, we know that the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries have more than twice as many fixed wing aircraft as NATO.
  The White Paper also points to key Warsaw Pact improvements, notably in tactical aircraft and forward air assault units. But, once again, the nature of the threat has not changed radically. The two forces are massed against each other in Central Europe, the quantity of equipment and the numbers of forces involved have increased, but the nature of the threat is not radically different. It remains a second and important responsibility to ensure that we are defended through the collective defence of NATO.
  It is in the third area of what I call the wider defence sphere that the most radical changes have occurred. This
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  is where our defence posture needs to respond equally radically. Two major changes that have occurred over the last 20 years in particular have influenced significantly the global context of our defence deployment, particularly that of the RAF. The first is what I regard as the extended threat outside the NATO area, and the second is the extent to which military capabilities are increasingly used by Governments as instruments of foreign policy.
  The major change in the extended threat outside the NATO area has resulted from the switch from the geographical diversity of interests we once protected to the diversity of threats that we now face. In the days when the map of the world was largely pink, when British interests spread around it and when we had the men and machines to protect those interests as well as our subjects internationally, we rightly had responsibilities which we fulfilled adequately and honourably. For reasons that should now be put forward, no one really resisted the policy initiated in the early 1960s by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) as Defence Secretary in the first period of withdrawal east of Suez. However, there has been a secular trend away from having a policing interest in the world.
  Any politician who argues in this House or elsewhere that we should again adopt a more internationalist approach, or be involved outside the United Kingdom, must be extremely cautious because it could rightly be argued that he is trying to involve the country in affairs which do not necessarily affect our citizens.
  Nevertheless, I would argue that while many of the interests and consequently the citizens of the United Kingdom—which provided the rationale for defence deployment in the past—have disappeared, the change that we now see is that the Security threat is much more diverse geographically, whereas in the past it was either a threat to the immediate boundaries of our country or a threat posed within Central Europe.
  Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have made representations to Mr. Speaker, but unfortunately he is at present otherwise engaged. I have therefore been unable to get a reply from him. But I have made my protest, and I continue with that protest.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) may have been slow in rising to his feet, but, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you did not bother to look at the Opposition Benches and called two Conservative Members in succession.
  I continue my protest. It is against the normal procedures of the House. Whether or not Mr. Speaker, when he arrives, gives an immediate ruling, I shall pursue the matter until it is satisfactorily resolved.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I can perhaps assist the hon. Gentleman by saying that if he had stood up I would have called him. He did not, however, stand.
  Mr. Heffer: I deliberately did not stand up. I was waiting for my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) who had been sitting in his place throughout the proceedings and was obviously next in line to speak.
  Mr. Cryer: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It appears that some new rule has been introduced whereby if an hon. Member has not been sitting in the

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  Chamber for a period of time to satisfy the Deputy Speaker occupying the Chair, he does not qualify automatically for inclusion in the list.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with the discretion that I have excercised, to the best of my ability, he has a remedy of which he is aware.
  Mr. Cryer: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am not satisfied because you have broken a convention of the Chamber.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: If that is the case, the hon. Gentleman knows his remedy.
  Mr. Nelson: I was referring to the reasons why I believe that the extended threat to NATO has changed in recent years. 1 shall adduce three reasons for this new, extended threat to Western security and this country in particular. The first is that technological advances have extended the range, deployment and capability of weapons. The incursion of the Soviet navy into the Indian Ocean and the world-wide deployment of atomic submarines has been made possible by the increased range of inter-continental missiles and launching systems.
  The second reason for the extended threat is the increasing reliance that this country and the Western world place on essential routes and materials. There have been throughout our history certain essential routes for goods coming to and from this country. In recent years, however, specialisation and large bulk carriage of goods has meant that certain routes have become even more essential than in the past. 55 per cent. of Western Europe's oil requirements come through the Straits of Hormuz. That alone serves as an example of the extent to which reliance on routes outside the territorial waters of this country has increased in recent years.
  The third factor that has extended the threat to Western security is the increasing military capability of a number of developing countries. The nuclear capability of such countries as Israel, Pakistan, South Africa and China and the conventional military strength of countries such as Cuba, Libya ale Gulf States and indeed, a number of terrorist groups internationally, is evidence of this growing military capability and demonstrates that we face a more pluralistic threat than we have been prepared to accept in the past.
  I believed that last year's White Paper, authorship for which has generally been regarded as being in the hands of my hon. Friend the Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie) was an excellent statement of what should be our response to this extended threat. Paragraph 408 of last year's White Paper said:
  "the West must make it clear to the Soviet Union and its allies that it is capable of protecting essential interests by military means should the need arise. That task cannot and should not be left to the United States alone."
  Paragraph 409 of the same White Paper stated
  "the Government believes that the Services should also be able to operate effectively outside the NATO area, without diminishing our central commitment to the Alliance."
  Those were fine words with which I agree. They follow logically from the analysis that I have tried to present. However, paragraph 401 of this year's White Paper states that
  "there has been much discussion in this country and in NATO of whether we could and should do more"
  in the world beyond NATO.
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  " That question must be considered, like the issues of out-of-area defence as a whole, with due respect for realities. Reinstatement of the former British presence 'East of Suez', whatever the arguments for arid against, is no longer either a political or an economic possibility. What we can do is review each aspect of our worldwide defence activity to ensure that our available resources are being used as effectively as possible".
  I detect in those extracts from the two White Papers a notable change of attitude. I ask the Minister, if possible, to give some reassurance that the Government are alive to the changing nature of the extended threat to this country, to NATO and to Western security and that our defence posture is one that is credible to potential opponents and one that will be capable not only of dealing with the threat but also contains a credibility and willingness by the Government to operate outside the geographical area of NATO itself.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Will not my hon. Friend agree that the obscurantist verbiage that he has quoted from this year's White Paper is in marked contrast to the clear statements of our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who has been not in the least equivocal in her committed support for the determination of the President of the United States and his Administration to play an important part in global peace-keeping in the Gulf and in other areas?
  Mr. Nelson: Yes.
  The second point I wish to make with regard to wider defence interests is that defence capability has increasingly been used in recent years as an instrument of foreign policy. This is something that we should not ignore. The Soviet Union has demonstrated how effectively its foreign policy can be enhanced and implemented by strong military backing and a preparedness to use those forces. The deployment of sizeable formations, particularly airborne divisions, on the borders of Poland and Iran, and the use of Soviet weapons and so-called advisers in numerous African countries and in the Middle East are evidence of the leverage that the Soviet Union exerts on political developments well beyond its own borders.
  In response, the West, in my judgment, has shown a marked unwillingness to back its words with action. This is understandable to some extent, but our credibility in foreign affairs and our own economic self-interest will be diminished if we abdicate responsibility for sharing in the defence of the free world.
  If it is accepted, therefore, that in the area of the wider defence sphere, there have been radical changes in the course of the last 20 years, and particularly the last five years, which should encourage a changed policy of deployment both for the Royal Air Force and the other Services, I think that more emphasis should have been laid in this year's White Paper on a counter-strategy for the global challenge that this country and Western interests face.
  The White Paper set out the bare bones of such a strategy, consisting of three objectives. The first was defence aid to independent States. The second was periodic deployment for exercises and visits abroad. The third was, in the last resort, intervention. I support this strategy. However, the principal argument that I am trying to advance is that the changed conception of our wider defence interest requires a more forthright determination and ability to protect our interests outside the United Kingdom and outside NATO. I am not proposing that we

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  police the world once again but that in concentrating our defences in the United Kingdom and Europe we should not overlook the threat that may come from elsewhere.
  The third aspect of the so-called Western counter-strategy is that we should, in the last resort, be prepared to intervene. Once again, the words of the White Paper are couched in curious language. Paragraph 110 of the White Paper states:
  "The third is the ability to deploy those forces for deterrent or defensive action where circumstances make this necessary in the last resort."
  The language is so guarded that I do not believe that any country, let alone the Soviet Union, would believe that it was a credible threat or a deterrent to its intervention in another country. In our future policy we must be bolder with our words and mean what we say.
  Paragraph 115 hints that the European members of NATO have different starting points for responding to the extended threat. No details are given, but the differences should not be insurmountable. If they exist, more strenuous efforts must be made to persuade our European partners in NATO—I do not mean the United States, as one day we may be reliant on our own resources—of the need to act as one in responding to the changed nature of the wider defence sphere, which should be the determining factor for the deployment and capability of the Royal Air Force and the other Services.
  6.11 pm
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: We cannot discuss the Royal Air Force in isolation from our whole defence policy. I have always had an affinity with the RAF, having served in it during the war, which is more that some hon. Members can say, although they appear to be extremely knowledgeable about it. Although I am sure that what I am about to say will not please the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson), I was for some time stationed at Newbury, and know the area.
  I was surprised that the hon. Gentleman suggested that if a person did not want a cruise missile nearby he was not a patriot. I do not equate that attitude with patriotism. People can be just as patriotic and interested in defending our rights and democracy without wanting a cruise missile next door to them, or in the country at large. I do not equate cruise missiles with democracy.
  The Soviet Union has all sorts of nuclear weapons, but it does not have democracy. Other countries have nuclear weapons and are not necessarily democratic. The argument is not logical. One can feel deeply about our future and be patriotic, yet passionately believe, as I do, that nuclear weapons are absolutely unnecessary and endanger the future of our country and democracy.
  We are in an awful situation, where both super Powers have huge stocks of nuclear weapons. Because of the antagonism that exists, in itself that damages democracy in all parts of the world. I ask the hon. Gentleman to think about that for five minutes. He may then reach a different conclusion.
  Over the years I reluctantly accepted that Britain should be a member of NATO, although I am increasingly moving away from that belief. Many European countries are not members. France, which is not a member in the strict sense, is concerned to defend its people and territory and has a nuclear capacity, so we do not automatically need to be a member of NATO to defend our interests.
  Mr. Wilkinson: France is a member of the Western Alliance, and a signatory to the Brussels Treaty, and the mutual defence provisions of that Treaty are even more explicit than those of the NATO treaty—and France has nuclear weapons.
  Mr. Heffer: France is a member of the Western European Union and has agreements with us, but she is not a member of NATO. Whether or not the hon. Gentleman likes it, they are not the same thing. France is independent in her defences, so we do not necessarily have to be a member of NATO to have agreements with other countries to work together in the face of aggression. We must consider that.
  The time has also come to reconsider our NATO commitments, although perhaps not to act immediately. I do not believe that we should withdraw from NATO tomorrow. That is not possible. However, we must consider in depth whether we should continue to be a member of the Alliance.
  Like Pavlovian dogs, some hon. Members, when they hear a speaker mention unilateral disarmament or withdrawal from NATO, jump up and behave as though the speaker is a Soviet agent and a paid-up member of the communist party. My record is sufficient for people to know that I am no friend of the bureacratic system of the Soviet Union; nor am I enamoured of the Communist Party. It is a question of what is in the best intersts of our people. My argument may be considered heretical on the Government Benches. I am in favour of our getting rid of nuclear weapons completely, but it does not follow that we must get rid of what are strangely called traditional or conventional weapons. We must have a defence capability. I am not a pacifist, although pacifists have every right to argue that we should get rid of all weapons, which would mean abolishing the Royal Air Force, the Army and the Navy
  I believe that we need an efficient Royal Air Force, Navy and Army, within limits. I am not suggesting that we should again become the policemen of the world; I am talking of protecting our country within possible limits.
  We also need greater democratisation in the Armed Forces. Some hon. Members may have a mild heart attack when I say that I am very much in favour of having a trade union organisation to protect the rank and file in our Services, as other European countries have.
  Because we believe that we should get rid of nuclear weapons and the nuclear bases in this country, and that at some time in the future we may have to consider our function and positon in NATO, it does not follow that we should not defend our shores and have proper Armed Services. That is vital, but while some of us believe that, we nevertheless feel that we should get rid of nuclear weapons.
  When my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) said that we believed in both multilateral and unilateral disarmament, he was asked which part of the Labour Party believed that. It is a belief that can and does unite the party. The whole Labour Party is in favour of multilateral disarmament in nuclear weapons. We believe that every possible effort must be made to reach international agreement to make certain that the number of nuclear weapons is reduced.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, as far as I can ascertain, the vast majority of Conservative Members are also in favour of multilateral disarmament? It is unilateral disarmament that we oppose.
  Mr. Heffer: I have heard it argued on many occasions over the years that Conservative Members are in favour of multilateral disarmament in nuclear weapons. Yet they drag their feet when anyone suggests doing anything positive about it. It was my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition who responded in a most positive way to the representation made by Mr. Brezhnev. Whether Mr. Brezhnev is right or wrong, once the Soviet Union makes a proposal, the only way of knowing whether it is serious is to test it out, feel the waters, and discuss the matter. Conservative Members have been most tardy in that regard. In fact, there have been far too many cold war speeches of late, giving the clear impression that Conservative Members are in favour of a build-up when they should be arguing for a serious attempt to reduce nuclear weapons.
  Most of us in the Labour Party want the removal of all nuclear bases in this country, because we feel that this country is in the front line. We would be a prime target. The first time that a nuclear weapon lands in Moscow or in any part of the Soviet Union, the Russians will not have a philosophical debate about it. Some guy will press the button—assuming that the bomb did not land on the button—and our towns and cities will disappear at one go. Not many of the modern bombs would be needed to do that.
  I discovered recently that if a 1-megaton bomb dropped on the middle of Newcastle it would devastate an area within a nine-mile radius, and no one would survive. What in any case, would be the condition of those who did survive? Even if people did survive, what would they find when they came out of their nice underground shelters? What kind of a society would remain? How would they manage to survive? That is why we are deeply concerned about the present situation.
  The Labour Party and I want to get rid of nuclear weapons on British soil and in the seas around Britain and at the same time seek multilateral disarmament in nuclear weapons on an international scale. However, I believe—perhaps not all my colleagues agree—that within that context we need efficient, workable, decent and good Armed Services to protect ourselves. Of course, that does not mean putting people into the Armed Forces through National Service, or anything of that kind. I am not in favour of that. Nor am I in favour of a massive extension of the Armed Forces. Nevertheless, we could save many billions of pounds by getting rid of nuclear weapons and making certain that the Armed Services that we have are the best possible that we can have within that context.
  6.26 pm
  Mr. Robert Atkins: I shall not follow the argument of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) because, although it was interesting, the debate is about the Royal Air Force. First, however, I wish to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces to his present position. As he comes from Blackpool and I from Preston, we share the British Aerospace factories. Whenever I visit those factories I find that his constituents are putting together Tornados, and I hope that when he visits them he finds that my constituents are doing the same.
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  Much has been said, and doubtless will be said, about the threat. I noticed in a copy of the press release to which my hon. Friend referred, that Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Beetham said only the other day that
  "interceptions of Soviet aircraft by Royal Air Force air defence aircraft in the UK Air Defence Region rose from a weekly average of four in 1978 to nearly six a week last year."
  So the threat still exists. It is therefore all the more worrying that people in the Royal Air Force tell me of their concern about the fuel restrictions, for example, which are making the training of Royal Air Force pilots and crews more difficult than before.
  Last year I had the privilege of visiting the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock), which contains both RAF Lossiemouth and Kinloss. It was a great privilege for me—as, I am sure, it was for him—to witness at first hand what Royal Air Force personnel do in the front line in Lossiemouth and Kinloss, and their dedication to duty. That was drawn to our attention recently by the tragic crash of a Nimrod aircraft in the area.
  Mr. Alex Pollock: Does my hon. Friend agree that those stations display a remarkable degree of professional competence and a unique esprit die corps in terms of the Nimrod operations, which undoubtedly play a significant part in their contribution to the NATO Alliance?
  Mr. Atkins: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn. In opening, the Minister said how much he valued the work done by those crews, not only in my hon. Friend's constituency but in the West Country.
  However, there is more to defence than the threat. I want to address my remarks to what I shall loosely call the industrial base—the procurement and operational requirement side of defence. The implications of the cuts imposed by the defence review, about which we shall hear more on Thursday, will have a wide effect on industry.
  I recently had the good fortune to visit an exhibition of the Defence Manufacturers Association in Brighton. Following the exhibition, I received a letter from the association, which said:
  "there is a real danger of the break-up of the industrial base of the British Defence Industry, 'from the bottom', an industry which has hitherto been at the forefront of the world's manufacturers of Defence equipment. It could take many years to recover from such a situation".
  I wonder whether, in our industrial strategy, we are paying enough attention to the industrial base in defence and aerospace. In the preliminary part of its report on the Defence Estimates the Select Committee refers to the problem of industrial strategy and the defence industry It states:
  "We regard it as important that every effort should be made to maintain the British industrial base and safeguard capabilities which might otherwise disappear; this is particularly important in areas of high technology."
  I believe that it would be better to devote more money to the successful industries, which fall largely in the area of high technology in aerospace and related matters, than to throw good money after bad as we have in recent months, understandable though that may be.
  Mention has been made of decisions that will have to be taken in the near future about equipment. I refer, for example, to the AV8B and the GR5. The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) referred to that, and I intervened during his remarks. I feel strongly that he was

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  right to worry about a design team capability for a follow-on to supersonic V/STOL. That must be retained. If the decision is to go for the AV8B, as I suspect it will be, we must be aware of the jobs and profitability that it will give to British Aerospace, its employees and shareholders, and how important it is to tie down the contracts tightly.
  I was glad to hear the Minister refer to the decision that has to be taken on the JP233. It is a crucial decision, which is important to the future of the Tornado. I urge the Minister to make an urgent decision, so that we can be clear in our minds.
  Mr. Snape: The hon. Gentleman has compared the AV8B with the GR5. I remind him of what he said 12 months ago about those two aircraft:
  "there is a marked superiority of the GR5 over the AV8B in both maximum speed and dash speed at low level, and it also has much superior manouvreability. Above all, in this context, cost comparisons between the GR5 and the AV8B show that for a force of 60 aircraft it would cost the United Kingdom 15 to 20 per cent. more for the AV8B than for the Mk. V. I do not have to spell out in words of one syllable the industrial ramifications of purchasing the GR5 as opposed to the AV8B."—[Official Report, 23 June 1980; Vol. 987, c. 118.]
  I appreciate that 12 months have passed since then and that things have changed. If the hon. Gentleman stands by those sentiments now, he is letting the Minister off lightly.
  Mr. Atkins: Like many of my colleagues, I think that the GR5 is a better aircraft for the RAF. However, in the last year great developments on the AV8B have taken place and it is now more acceptable to the RAF. To expect exactly what one wants is not always sensible. To that extent, the AV8B has improved in terms of what the RAF wants. I make no bones about it. As I said last year, I should prefer the decision to be made in favour of the GR5, but I accept that other matters outweigh the design leadership of the GR5—for example, the greater purchase number likely if we have American involvement, and the effect on jobs and profitability that will ensue from that. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments.
  Another matter that has exercised my mind has been mentioned briefly, and the Minister of State will be aware of it. I refer to what was called the AST403. It then became the ECA, or the European combat aircraft, and is now loosely called the light combat aircraft. Discussions on the P106 are taking place with the Swedish and Indian aircraft industries.
  The Select Committee report says of the Jaguar replacement:
  "we must press upon the Government the need for urgent progress. The longer it takes to agree the design of the replacement aircraft, the more the in-service date will slip and the greater will be the ultimate cost."
  I agree with that.
  British Aerospace must recognise the difficulties with which Defence Ministers are faced. It should continue its search for outside finance which is being rumoured in relation to another project, the P110. That rumour concerns funds being made available from Middle East countries or anywhere else to allow British Aerospace to go its own way. Then perhaps an aircraft will be built earlier, instead of waiting for the Minister and his officials to make a decision which they might not be in a position to make.
  I congratulate British Aerospace on two leadership projects on which it is engaged. It has gained a contract
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  for carbon fibre composite work with the Ministry of Defence valued at about £400,000 and involving the wear and tear aspect of carbon fibre. Some work has been done on the Jaguar wing. British Aerospace is excited at the prospect which the new contract opens up. It is far advanced on yet another project known as the Fly-by-Wire Jaguar, for which British Aerospace has world leadership in design. I hope that the Minister will say how he sees the development of the expertise that results from that.
  The cuts in programmes which have exercised the minds of many of my hon. Friends equal cuts in jobs. That must not be forgotten. Industry must recognise the problem. It must accept that it cannot always wholly rely on the Ministry of Defence and the Procurement Executive to get the projects that it wants. Industry must seek finance from outside. Our industries are world leaders and they can succeed.
  A classic example is the Hawk, a private venture which has proved to be an amazing success. All being well, if it takes up the VTX requirement of the United States Navy, it will become a trainer, and even more will be sold.
  Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones: I apologise to my hon. Friend for not hearing the beginning of his speech. What does he think of the new 321 helicopter which is on the Rolls-Royce drawing board? That helicopter is dependent on assistance from the Government for its initial research. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important for strategic reasons that that project should go ahead?
  Mr. Atkins: That is an important point. My hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not develop it at length. He refers to the fundamental arguments in the MOD about which pieces of equipment will fulfil which roles and, indeed, whether the roles are there to be fulfilled. I know that my hon. Friend is concerned about the helicopter that he mentioned since it affects his constituency. I hope that the Minister will refer to it later.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Is my hon. Friend referring to the EH101, the Sea King replacement, to be built by Agusta and Westland jointly?
  Mr. Atkins: I am referring to a different project. The EH101 is the European helicopter which, it is hoped, will be the Sea King replacement. I hope that my hon. Friends will confuse each other outside the Chamber instead of confusing me now.
  Mr. Wilkinson: I wanted to be educated, not confused.
  Mr. Atkins: I shall move on, before I become waylaid.
  The small firms which comprise the membership of the Defence Manufacturers Association are concerned. In a letter to me about cuts in programmes the association states:
  "major Defence contractors with long term contracts and greater capital resources are better able to weather this situation than the smaller contractors and sub-contractors, on whom the major contractors and MOD(PE) eventually depend."
  To that extent, the small subcontractors should be given as much attention as the large contractors, however important they may be to me and my constituency.
  The exhibition of the Defence Manufacturers Association was an enormous success. People came from all over the world to see the highly technical, almost esoteric, products that form so much of the subcontracting work of the defence industry. It was a tribute to the amount of work done in that industry.

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  I want to touch on the effects of the moratorium to which my hon. Friend referred. I have a copy of a letter which was sent to my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) by Marconi Avionics, in which the company submitted that the moratorium had serious effects for several reasons. The three reasons given in the letter are that firms were making faster progress than expected; they were submitting bills more promptly, and prices of defence equipment were moving faster than expected. That is true, arid we understand it. The writer of the letter suggested that the single root cause was the inability, unwillingness or incapacity of MOD(PE) to place contracts on other than a cost-plus or price-to-be-agreed basis.
  The letter continues:
  "Most Mo D(PE) contracts are placed on a cost plus or 'price to be agreed' basis. The very nature of such contracts indicates the uncertainty about costs and it is not therefore too surprising that the reasons given did in fact materialise. The problem with the cost price and 'price to be agreed' contracts is that it is difficult and sometimes impossible to place any restraint on a company paying higher rates, or devoting more effort to a job, or incurring increased overhead expenditure. I can only assume that this is what happened to cause the unpredicted rise in costs."
  That is a leading defence manufacturer Marconi expressing concern about the reasons for the moratorium and their effect.
  I open out the argument and ask my hon. Friend the Minister to consider whether the operational requirements section for the RAF is working as well as it should. My hon. Friends have made criticisms, for example, about delays with the next version of the Harrier, which have necessitated a decision likely to be taken for the AV8B rather than the GR5. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) argued that that decision was forced by delay in the operational requirements section, and he may wish to expand that if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Is the operational section on the ball; is it aware of exactly what is involved? My hon. Friend the Member for Woking, in an earlier defence debate, said that he thought that perhaps an aspect of virility was involved. A new man coming into the operational requirements section might feel that he has to alter or reconstruct a product to prove that he is worth his job—[Interruption.] I would not for a moment suggest that that remark applies to the Secretary of State. I am speaking of the people professionally involved within the Department other than the ministerial team.
  I am concerned that the section appears to change its requirements, having set them too high in the first place. Operational requirements chop and change so frequently that the manufacturers do not know whether they are coming or going. I quote from the Defence Manufacturers Association's letter:
  "it is also necessary to see that sufficient funds are available to retain in business a viable and properly structured defence industry, which must take into account the survival of smaller contractors and sub-contractors as well as main contractors. It is the smaller manufacturers, whom the Government profess to want to help, who are being hardest hit by the current policy".
  To that extent, the operational requirements section needs to be examined.
  I am pleased to see the development in the area of the tanker fleet. Some of us attended a recent presentation by the Boeing Company which suggested that there was more to the tanker fleet than just providing converted British Airways DC10s. Existing civil airliners with inflatable
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  tanks could be used. That would be considerably less expensive and just as effective. Will the Minister consider that innovation with perhaps greater urgency?
  The day before yesterday I went to a convention held by Marconi where I met the Director General of the Society of British Aerospace Companies. In the context of operational requirements, the tanker fleet and various other items, he stressed that there must be immediate discussions between SBAC and Sir Derek Rayner so that they could come to a joint conclusion about the reforms needed in MOD(PE). I understand that those discussions have not occurred and I hope that my hon. Friend will refer to that.
  It was suggested during the major defence debate that the Select Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking, should examine the operation of MOD(PE) and operational requirements section specifically. I hope that this will happen in due course.
  Another aspect of the procurement and operational side—an area which is exercising British Aerospace, particularly in Preston—is production technology. This is concerned not so much with aeroplanes but with the extremely advanced, highly technological equipment that will be required between now and the end of the century to make the aeroplanes, and the bits that build the aeroplanes—the robotics, computer-aided design arid computer-aided management.
  In America, France and Japan the Government devote a large amount of money to assisting industry to develop in this area. I quote from a letter I received recently from a director of British Aerospace in the Preston area. He raised several questions which I hope my hon. Friend will be able to answer:
  "To what extent is MOD funding research on production technology in the defence industry in order to improve efficiency and hence the competitive position of United Kingdom industry? How many Government engineers and scientists in MOD research establishments are carrying out research? How many of these Government engineers and scientists are working on production technology?"
  Then came a suggestion which frightened me, that the level of aeronautical research and deveolpment in the United Kingdom showed that in 1970 the United Kingdom was investing one-fifth of that invested in the United States of America, whereas in 1978 our investment had dropped to only one-tenth of that of the United States of America. To make matters worse, our investment in 1978 was less than that in either France or Germany, our primary European competitors. The letter continues:
  "In spite of the difficulties, it is vital that something is done, and quickly, or production technology developments in the United States, Germany and Japan, countries in which aerospace manufacturing enjoys massive Government support, will destroy the competitiveness of the aerospace industry in Britain, which will then suffer the same fate as many of our manufacturing industries".
  That concern, I know, is prevalent within the aerospace, avionics and air engine industries and I hope that my hon. Friend, who has discussed this matter with British Aerospace, will be able to say something about it.
  The sales side of the Ministry of Defence is improving, but there is still room for improvement. I am concerned that there is no replacement yet for the sales director, Sir Ronald Ellis, who is due to leave shortly. I have heard rumours—I hope that they are only rumours—that a civil servant will be appointed. I and many of my colleagues, and I suspect some Opposition Members, would prefer someone from industry to be appointed. Sir Ronald Ellis

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  came from Leyland, not too far from Preston. He has been a success, and I hope that someone in a similar capacity will be appointed to take his job in due course.
  The sales department leaves some room for improvement. I wonder how many hon. Members are aware that a large number of those in that department are serving officers doing a two-year tour, in the way that other serving officers are involved in many other aspects of the RAF. One of them told me that he had a learning curve of about one-and-a-half years, so that effectively he was good at selling only for the last six months of his tour. Is there room for altering the structure so that people within MOD sales are there for a longer period, or the department structured in such a way that it uses a greater number of people with expertise from outside?
  I was delighted to note that the Prime Minister went abroad and sold Hawks. She did it, the former President of France did it and many French Ministers did it. I do it because I represent a constituency with an interest in that area, and I know that many of my hon. Friends do the same. I wish that all hon. Members, when we have such a successful area of industry, would sell it as hard as I and my colleagues do.
  I was upset at the decision not to replace the aircraft in the Queen's Flight. I know that many others also feel upset. It was a minor scandal that the aeroplanes had been operational for many years, and the opportunity to replace them with British aircraft before the production line was finished was missed. Presumably we shall have to buy foreign aircraft, use British Airways or use the 146. It would be a marvellous decision to use the 146. However, I have not heard that that will occur. That selling point needs to be emphasised strongly.
  I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will answer my second question. I recently learnt that a Sea Harrier was provided for the Paris Air Show by the Ministry of Defence for demonstration purposes. British Aerospace was charged £45,000 to use the aeroplane, and then had to insure if for £6 million, which cost a further £15,000. If those figures are correct—and I have heard only a rumour—we asked one of our leading companies which makes the aeroplane to provide £60,000 for a demonstrator for the Paris Air Show. That is an absolute disgrace. I hope that that practice will cease as soon as possible.
  I have spoken about a number of matters, as perhaps I was expected to do. There is more to defence than simply the threat of war. Taking into account the Government's assumption of a 9 per cent. increase in prices in the coming year, the 1981–82 cash limits represent an 8 per cent. reduction in volume spending. If we deduct the January cuts of 1½ per cent. I have to wonder what is to come. The industrial base of our aerospace and defence industries is extremely important. If programmes, commitments, arms, personnel and so on within the MOD are to be safeguarded during this difficult time, industrially as well as strategically, the cash limits must be relaxed.
  I wish to quote from the Select Committee report in relation to the overspend last year. It states:
  "we consider that on this occasion the Chancellor should allow the additional expenditure incurred beyond the 1980–81 cash limit to stand."
  I hope that that will be the case. The decision may have been taken already, but I hope that it has been taken along the lines of the Select Committee report.
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  My only comment about Trident, which Opposition Members rightly say is supported by myself and my colleagues, is not that the cost worries me, but that there is no great offset for that major deal. When I visited the United States recently, I was amazed to find that American companies had put forward many suggestions, prior to the decision being taken, about how to offset some of the cost. They were astonished when no proposals were made for offset agreements. Although that issue has now passed, before we exercise those cash limits we must remember that some opportunities have been missed, especially for Trident, which I hope will not happen again.
  Preston, North is a defence town—one of the most important defence towns in Britain because of the numbers working in and around the defence industry. I give notice openly, here and now, that I fought the election at Preston, North on the ground of an increased budget for MOD spending, both strategically and industrially. Preston, North has a company which is a world leader and many subcontractors rely on it. I cannot, and will not, support the Government if they propose cuts in that area, which I believe to be important. We have a mandate. I am convinced that we can stick to it—not only because the defence of our country is important, but because we are in a difficult time of recession and cuts. We lead the world in this area. I refer not only to British Aerospace, but to the British aerospace industry and the defence industry throughout Britain. We lead the world. Let us continue to do so and ensure jobs, profitability and the defence of Britain.
  6.56 pm
  Mr. Bruce George: I am fortunate to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because there are always many hon. Members on the Opposition Benches clamouring to speak. There are exceptions, and perhaps tonight is one of them. During the last two defence debates I tried to catch your eye but was unsuccessful, because of the enormous number of hon. Members who wished to speak.
  I wish to comment on some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins). He admitted that he acts as a salesman for his constituency. Many of us do that, and not only in relation to defence industries. I should like to be more of a salesman for my constituency, but with more than 15 per cent. unemployed there are less wares to tout abroad. The Chancellor is shortly to go on a whistle-stop tour of all the successful enterprises that have been proposed under the Government. He will be back for Question Time at 2.30 pm. He will visit my constituency. However, it has little defence industry. It is suffering considerably because of poor economic policy making, which I suspect is replicated in defence policy making.
  As I listened to the minor arguments between three Conservative Members I felt that it was a foretaste of things to come. They must accept some of the responsibility for that. I apologise for my analogy, as I do not wish to be malicious, but they appeared to be like dogs fighting over a bone. We shall find that that happens far more often in future.
  Mr. Wilkinson: I simply inquired about the identity of a helicopter. I was ignorant enough not to know about the 321. I wrongly assumed that it was the EH101, which I know something about.
  Mr. George: Conservative Members are in a considerable dilemma. Having acclaimed Trident and shouted "Hoorah, hoorah" they now have to face the consequences of their support for it. Many have argued for some time—not only in the House but outside—that we cannot have our cake and eat it. Trident will be to the detriment of conventional forces. The Navy appears to be about to suffer. There will be less money for conventional forces, whatever the MOD may say. There will be the unedifying spectacle of Conservative Members representing constituencies with defence interests fighting over a diminishing cake. I do not relish that prospect for the months or years that lie ahead. Members of Parliament who vote for the Government's policy must accept responsibility. It will be difficult for some of them to face their constituents and admit that their support of the Government will cost many jobs.
  Single Service debates are often seen as rituals. We go through the motions of debate, expending more heat than light, and then like tennis professionals move on to the next Service debate. At one stage I thought that the tennis analogy was inappropriate. However, having listened to the questioning of the umpire's decision by our own McEnroes and Nastases, it may be that it was not entirely unfounded.
  We may have arrived at one of the major turning points in post-war defence and foreign policy decision-making.
  Mr. Cryer: My hon. Friend seems to imply that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and I were questioning a referee's judgment unfairly. He will know that it is a convention of the House for the Chair to call hon. Members from both sides of the Chamber. I hope that he will accept that.
  Mr. George: That is an issue that will be pursued by reference to Mr. Speaker.
  Since the Second World War there has been a constant effort on the part of successive Governments to adjust commitments to resources. That has led to a series of major decisions. The latest may already have been taken and may be seen as a watershed in post-war history. There has been a considerable scaling down of our commitment in the light of our inexorable economic and industrial decline. The decision having been taken to procure Trident as a successor to Polaris, it is clear that there will be a detrimental effect on the remainder of the budget on conventional armaments. That is a factor that our NATO allies are probably considering with considerable anxiety.
  Our debates on defence decision-making should be more open, as they are in the United States and some other countries. The decision on Trident and on the consequences of Trident have been taken by a small elite, and Parliament has looked on as almost an innocent bystander. The reports of the Defence Committee on Nuclear Weapons Policy will be published on Thursday. However, the Government will be making their decision without having formally considered that document. I am disappointed that a defence statement will be made on Thursday after a meeting of the Cabinet. It is not surprising that that will coincide with the publication of a report that may question the wisdom of that which the Government are about to do or have already done. That seems to be so from leaks that have been made to the press. I hasten to add that I have not been responsible for the leaks.
  If the Government are interested in a wider debate, it will be unfortunate if that debate is scuppered by the
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  announcement of defence decisions that perhaps could be left for a few days. The Committee of which I am a member has been labouring for 12 months to produce what I consider to be well researched reports. I have argued in the past that we should not wait until July for the Government to make their major decisions. However, it would be regarded by many as a piece of sharp practice if the Government attempted to stifle debate on the Committee's report by pre-empting it in this way.
  I regard single Service debates as useful. I hope that the reorganisation of the Ministry will not change the number of days spent on debating defence and the format of our debates. Over the years the Chair has been flexible in accepting that one does not speak exclusively to the Army, Air Force or Navy. To do so would be detrimental to defence debates. In the reorganisation of the Ministry of Defence there has been a move away from compartment-talised Departments. In some ways that could be replicated in defence debates. I hope that the Leader of the House will not try to undermine single Service debates. Surely we should be permitted to raise issues that do not fall exclusively within the confines of the single Service.
  We live in highly dangerous times. We live with the threat of mutual extermination. The individual politicians of various countries regard that threat in many different ways. There are those who consider that the Soviet Union is indifferent to territorial expansion, is
  "More sinned against than sinning"
  and is one of the finest examples of a peace-loving nation in contemporary terms or historic terms. We must contrast that view with the fear that is often expressed that the Soviet Union has designs on a world State and that it has a master plan for world domination, with all the pieces slotting neatly into place with a degree of scientific exactness.
  In the Labour Party there are those with strong pacifist traditions who would not meet aggression with aggression. There are those who prefer to trust in God and to display an indifference to the dryness of the powder. I have a sense of profound uncertainty. I do not have the satisfaction that certainty gives to many others, either from the position of the far Left or the far Right. It seems that those who hold those positions are able to perceive defence in fairly simple terms. They have a framework, and the pieces slot into it. I amend slightly what a Member of Parliament said over 100 years ago. I wish that I were as certain of some things as they are of everything.
  In this world of uncertainty we have to decide as a nation how to respond and how to react to a growing danger. Why is the danger increasing? The answer is clear. There is nuclear proliferation. A world war could be started by the spread of atomic and nuclear weapons to countries that will exercise rather less responsibility than that exercised by super Powers, France and the United Kingdom.
  There are anxieties because of growing tensions between East and West. The era of detente has come to an end. I hope that that is a temporary end. It seems that the beating of swords into plowshares has not been all that successful in the past. It is vital to return to the negotiating table. I have fears about the widening of the Atlantic. Poor President Carter was admonished for helping to widen the Atlantic. I suspect that the Atlantic, by which I mean the relationship between the United States and Europe including Britain, will become much wider. The

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  individual nations within Europe have different perceptions from those of the current American Administration on defence and foreign policy.
  One example is what appears to be the absolute support that the United States is showing and will be showing to Israel. I do not question Israel's right to exist, but I hope that the United States will consider Middle East matters rather more rationally. The display of an uncritical analysis of the Middle East could lead to serious consequences for us all.
  I am worried that the leadership in the Soviet Union and in the United States appears to display a simplistic analysis of those on the other side. The gerontocratic leadership of the Soviet Union and the new Administration in the United States seem to regard the other side as the personification of evil and the force of darkness. We are living in a world that is governed by the principle that realpolitik is dangerous. However, a world governed by—I am not sure whether my next word exists—idealpolitik would be even more dangerous in which to live.
  The demise of detente, the development of nuclear weapons and the arms escalation lead me to be profoundly anxious about the world's future. What can Britain do? No one denies the dangers. One could adopt the approach of some, in seeking refuge in pacifism or in neutralism, but neutralism can be an expensive business. Some countries that purport to be neutral are spending more on defence than some countries that are formally in one or either of the major alliances. There could be an armed neutrality, which would give no guarantee of security, whilst we would argue forcibly that being in an alliance and relying on deterrence is no guarantee of security. However, I would argue that neither is there any guarantee in pacifism or neutralism.
  I hope that eventually the major pacts—NATO and the Warsaw Pact—will wither away. If there is any sudden shift in the major alliance system—to use that well-worn American phrase—we will have destabilisation, and that would lead to serious consequences.
  Some people have argued for a form of Gaullism. However, a Gaullist Britain would be a highly expensive and dangerous place. People who look to France for support for this principle must remember that in the presidential election the French President expressed a commitment to retaining France's nuclear capabilities, so all those who are arguing for a form of Gaullism here must see a reproduction of that sort of policy of retaining British nuclear weapons. Another alternative of that closer co-operation with Europe is also fraught with difficulties.
  We move on to other options of remaining within NATO as a partner playing a genuine part in NATO or as one of those groups currently in NATO whose contributions are rather limited. I believe that we should remain within NATO. That view was apparently shared in one of the resolutions in the last Labour Party conference at which the motion to withdraw from Europe was defeated by 6,500,000 votes to 800,000. NATO has been an element of continuity in British defence policy over the last 30 years. One writer called it our country's irreducible commitment.
  We must remain a member of NATO, not only because we should believe in collective security, but because it is within the membership of NATO that we shall be best able to influence the United States. We have played an
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  important part in the past. We must use our good relationship with the United States to ensure that that country pursues sensible policies, which will not jeopardise security—ours or theirs.
  In the perception of the United States, it has fallen a long way behind in the arms race in the era of detente. Now we have the latest lurch in the arms race by the United States seeking to remedy what it perceives as a deficiency by the proposed construction of the B1 bomber, TNF modernisation, MX, although there is disagreement at the moment about the basing mode, an increase in aircraft carriers and submarines, and rumours about a return to conscription. Such moves, far from increasing security, could jeopardise it.
  As members of NATO, I hope that we shall not blindly follow the United States, because that could not be in British interests. We must use our influence to ensure that the United States operates reasonably and that the apparent support for the proposals to get around the negotiating table is not merely rhetoric to satisfy its European allies. I cannot believe that peace and security can be permanently guaranteed in this world by a balance of terror, although one must believe, distressing as it is, that the balance of terror has up to now been a contributory factor in maintaining peace in Europe.
  The United States response to the increase in defence expenditure for the Soviet Union since the early 1960s, if maintained, may eventually restore the arms race at a more expensive and dangerous level. I hope that genuine security will be achieved by arms control, leading eventually to general disarmament. Swift attention must be given to the restoration of discussions between East and West, because we must reduce the arsenals of weapons at the disposal of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Those are the difficult times in which we live. Those are difficult times for any Government to make decisions that will not only enhance our security but will lead eventually to a reduction in the weapons of war.
  Within the context of defence and of British membership of NATO, the Royal Air Force plays a crucial part. In an address that he gave to the Air League in January the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement, apparently not speaking in an official capacity, stressed that he was giving his own views and not necessarily those of the Air Staff or his Department. He commented on the need to maintain the country's air strength in the face of rising costs and increasing pressure on the defence budget.
  The Royal Air Force is playing an important role in NATO. The role in air defence is one that should be improved. When in Opposition, the Conservative Party castigated the Labour Government for what seemed to be the paltry numbers of planes available for the air defence of the United Kingdom, yet as part of its election rhetoric and the immediate aftermath of its election there were promises of immediate improvements and of Lightning squadrons, which never materialised. What needs to be done swiftly is not simply to see the Tornado and the air defence version as the ultimate solution for our air defence problems, but to realise that we need to do many other things. We need to have an inventory of planes that meet the potential threat. We need to have the hardening of our airfields and we need to improve command and control procedures. Spending thousands of millions of pounds on defence might be superfluous if the command and control network were destroyed in time of conflict.

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  We need to have replacements for ageing planes, such as the Harriers and Jaguars. We need to have a proper inventory of transport planes, because if there is a conflict—God forbid—there will be a need swiftly to transport our forces to wherever they are required. That would mean more than commandeering Laker or British Airways. There is a need to improve radar. There is a need to improve the tail as well as the tooth.
  The Defence Committee looked at ammunition storage in West Germany. That may not be a politically exciting subject. It may be more exciting and more important to look at the International Institute of Strategic Studies review each year and at the number of planes that each country has. However, unless those planes are properly serviced, unless they have the proper weaponry, and unless the ammunition that is stored can be swiftly and properly distributed, there is no point in having the expensive hardware. Those are some of the things that need to be done by the Government in terms of the Royal Air Force.
  However, I fear that with the commitment to Trident many of the things that I had hoped would come about will suffer. I have not mentioned the Royal Air Force in Germany. Certainly, there are comparable needs there, too. I suggest that people should read the published evidence to the Defence Committee given by the Society of British Aerospace Manufacturers about what it considers may be the likely consequences of the Government proceeding with Trident.
  If the budget is under pressure now, what will happen when Trident starts to bite? The projects that many hon. Members regard as sacrosanct to their constituency will be cancelled, one by one. There has been debate in the past and there will be debate in the future. Hon. Members are mistaken if they think that just because a decision has been made to procure the successor to Polaris, and because they have voted in large numbers to support it, the debate on Trident is over. The debate is far from over, for when we begin to see the consequences of Trident, the Government will be under enormous pressure from their own side as well as ours.
  Some Labour Members argue against Trident on religious, moral and philosophical grounds. I would argue against Trident not simply on those grounds but on the ground of the opportunity costs of Trident—and in terms not only of hospitals and housing but of the remainder of the defence budget. That is why I ask hon. Members to look very carefully on Thursday at the reports of the Select Committee. They will then see the question in a different light, whichever report they look at, and that will improve the quality of the debate, which will go on for some time—well into the future.
  I hope that the goal of both East and West will be to reduce tension, to reduce armaments, and to create genuine arms control, leading eventually—this may be Utopian—to general disarmament. I hope that that question will reappear on the agenda. The Governments of the United States and the Soviet Union will be doing a great disservice to their respective populations if there is no return to genuine negotiation.
  We must ensure that while disarmament and arms control are taking place there will be the maintenance of security. I do not think that they are incompatible goals. It is important to realise, too, that the strength of a nation should not be seen simply in terms of one side of a world-wide balance sheet. Strength is more than a military
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  matter; it relies on the confidence that its population has in its institutions. It relies on the nation's ability to marshal its economic, political and diplomatic resources. Defence and security are far more than mere numbers.
  We must adopt—and I hope that the Americans will adopt—a rational approach to defence. I hope that all in the West will realise that we can either live with the Soviets or, surely, die with them.
  7.23 pm
  Mr. John Wilkinson: My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins) said that there was more to defence than just the threat. We have learnt this afternoon that there is more to an Adjournment debate than just the Royal Air Force. The argument has waxed and waned over so many subjects that are peripheral to our main debate that you may be a little surprised, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I seek to come back strictly to the subject at issue—the Royal Air Force.
  This debate is an exceedingly timely one as it comes two days before the Secretary of State announces to this House the findings of his defence review. If I am not to mix my metaphors, I should like to take this modest opportunity to fire a shot across the bows, if that is the right nautical phrase. Much of the speculation about that review is quite clear. It is that the Secretary of State has placed less emphasis on our maritime role than he has on our role in Continental Europe on the central front and our role in the air. I shall go briefly into those roles.
  First, there is the deterrent role, which is to continue with the modernisation of our independent deterrent force with the acquisition of the Trident missile system. I do not quarrel with that decision. I argued for the purchase of Trident in an Adjournment debate in the middle of the night in December 1979, and my view has not changed since then. But it would be foolish of us to pretend that that conscious decision will not have major ramifications for our conventional defences and for our whole defence posture.
  The review is, at least in part, a consequence of that conscious decision to procure Trident, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise, particularly as we are increasingly aware that the cost of Trident will escalate beyond the £5,000 million originally envisaged to at least £6,000 million, or thereabouts. It will, therefore, have a significant influence.
  The right hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Rodgers) said, I think in our first defence debate in this Parliament, that as a result of the Trident decision, something would have to give. A lot of things will have to give, and. I suspect that the Navy will have to give up most. The Royal Air Force is a service that is associated with all our roles except the deterrent role.
  The second primary role is our commitment, according to the Brussels treaty, to station four divisions on the Continent of Europe, with an associated tactical air force We are told by Her Majesty's Government that the commitment to four divisions is immutable.
  I can well understand why the Foreign Office is reluctant at this time to embark upon a major shift of balance within the British defence posture—a shift of balance away from Continental Europe, at a time when our Continental allies, particularly the Germans and perhaps to a lesser extent the Dutch and maybe the Belgians—are

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  having difficulties in meeting their Alliance commitments, and at a time when their domestic public opinion seems to be less and less wholeheartedly committed to defence.
  I can understand the anxieties that Her Majesty's Government feel. Nevertheless, that issue will at some stage have to be faced. I regard the prime roles of the United Kingdom—as an island nation to the rear and slightly to the flank of the rest of the Alliance—as being maritime and air. The United Kingdom is, after all, the essential bridge, the link, between Western Europe and North America.
  The defence of Western Europe is predicated on reinforcement across the North Atlantic. Without that reinforcement there can be no sustained defence of Western Europe, and to make good that reinforcement, the sea lanes across the North Atlantic must be kept secure. The skies must also be kept secure, and in particular the air defence of the United Kingdom air defence region, which stretches right up to the Shetlands and encompasses part of the vital Greenland-Iceland-Pharoes-Shetlands gap. That air defence must be effective.
  The Royal Air Force plays an important part in the defence of the Eastern Atlantic and the Channel areas, which are our main naval responsibilities, and in the defence of the United Kingdom air defence region the Royal Air Force is solely responsible.
  Apart from the four roles that I have listed—the deterrent, the Brussels treaty commitment, the United Kingdom air defence region, and the Channel and Eastern Atlantic naval commitments—there is the mobile role. That is a contribution to the allied mobile force of close support aircraft. There is also a potential for the deployment of squadrons overseas in the national interest or, at least theoretically and hypothetically, in support of an alliance operation outside the NATO theatre, be it as part of the rapid deployment force or whatever.
  In the United Kingdom we should not overlook our essentially unique position geographically, and as a maritime power with overseas commercial and trading interests, which should surely lead us towards an air and naval strategy.
  There is another argument. We alone of the European countries of any military significance—that is, if one discounts, for example, Liechtenstein, Andorra, San Marino and Iceland—have no form of national service. We do not have conscription. We therefore have to make good, with the very best weapons systems and, as members of a defensive alliance, with highly flexible mobile forces, the lack of manpower inherent in a nation which by conscious decision has renounced standing conscripted armies in peacetime.
  Those arguments, too, lead me to believe that to make the best use of our limited resources we must involve more naval forces and air forces in our defensive tasks rather than a static and inflexible presence in Central Europe.
  When one considers the defence of Central Europe, one is struck by one obvious fact. If Central Europe is to remain secure, our allies in the Federal Republic of West Germany must put freedom, independence and the preservation of democracy before the reunification of their country. I wonder to what extent the four divisions of BAOR actually influence that, which is essentially an internal German question.
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  I believe that our role in Central Europe should be primarily an air role. We do not know the time, the place or the direction of the thrust or the aggression when, or if, it falls. If it falls, however, we can be virtually sure that from our point of view it will fall at the wrong place and at the wrong time. BAOR in peacetime, with its attendant baggage train of married quarters, swimming pools, NAAFI shops, schools and the whole impedimenta, is in the wrong place if we seek a forward strategy to defend on the Elbe as far forward as possible. We may be sure that when the strike comes the refugees will be hurtling westwards and BAOR will be struggling to get out of barracks to go eastwards and at the same time to despatch the wives and children to the Channel ports—a horrifying spectacle.
  I suggest that if we try to make our main contribution to the defence of Central Europe an air defence, we can provide from this country air squadrons which at very short notice can go where they are wanted, to plug the gaps and try to stem the breakthroughs and to meet the armoured thrusts in an effective and flexible way. If they are not wanted on the central front, they can be sent to the Northern flank, the Southern flank or even to support the rapid deployment force further afield.
  Those are some of the reasons why I say that the role of the Royal Air Force is essential and crucial and why commentators such as Stansfield Turner, the former commander, Allied Forces Southern Europe, writing to The Times, Admiral Kidd, former Supreme Allied Commander Atlantic, Senator John Towers, chairman of the Senate Armed Forces, Committee, and yesterday in a letter to The Times my former Cambridge supervisor, Captain Stephen Roskill, were right to emphasise Britain's unique and paramount maritime role in Europe. Since the Battle of Britain, we have realised that that must be an air role as well. The two go hand in hand. One cannot divorce the waters or the underwater environment from what goes on above it, and one cannot secure the transatlantic reinforcement of Western Europe without security of the sea lanes and adequate air defence.
  This is a critical juncture in our defences. I suspect that the document to be issued on Thursday will, as the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) suggested, be as historic as the White Paper of my right hon. and noble Friend Lord Duncan Sandys. In retrospect that White Paper was somewhat flawed. He was right to emphasise the importance of the deterrent, but his idea that manned aircraft could be superseded to a large degree by missiles did great damage to the Royal Air Force and the air defences of this country took a long time to recover.
  I hope that those who have had the burden of responsibility for producing this review will not have entered upon it with any preconceptions such as that everything can be done by submarines which was previously done by other means or any other preconception. We need a balanced fleet, which means a submarine fleet, escort vessels, carriers—manned, I hope, in part by Royal Air Force aircrew as well as Fleet Air Arm pilots—and maritime control aircraft in sufficient numbers.
  We also need a balanced Royal Air Force with enhanced air defences, improved close support capability, with the acquisition of a new aircraft to replace the Jaguar in not too long a time scale, and sufficient reserves to mount protracted hostilities. We have always imagined that the next war will be a three-day or four-day affair. We

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  hope that it will never happen. We trust that deterrence will work, but if it breaks down we do not know the nature of the conflict upon which we may be embarked.
  Mr. Keith Best (Anglesey): Or the duration.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Or the duration, as my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best) reminds me. For that very reason, we need reserves. The auxiliary maritime headquarters units are doing their work well. The local one at Northwood does an admirable job. The three new auxiliary regiment squadrons are proving highly effective and I hope that we shall gain more of those.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Royal Air Force, whose work in the Air Force department when it existed I so much admired and whom I wish well in his new and equally important responsibilities for procurement, would, I am sure, think it remiss of me if I closed without a plea for flying squadrons in the Royal Auxilary Air Force. A close study of the Air National Guard in the United States has shown me what a remarkable contribution that makes. I believe that for about 6 per cent. of the USAF's budget it provides about 15 per cent. of the capability. That is the kind of cost effectiveness that I hope we are looking for in this review.
  7.37 pm
  Mr. Bob Cryer: It is most appropriate that I should follow the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), as he mentioned during the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) that he thought that the Soviet Union was becoming more aggressive. That is the general theme from the Conservative Benches. Indeed, that is why there is the continual cry for more money to be spent on all the Armed Forces, and particularly the Royal Air Force with which we are dealing today.
  I remind the hon. Gentleman of the quotation to which I referred earlier. On 3 March 1981, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Clark), vice chairman of the Tory Party parliamentary defence group, said:
  "If one measures the extent to which the strength of the Soviet Union has been eroded in central Europe by defections of one kind or another since that high point at the time of the Berlin airlift, one sees that effectively, it has lost Austria, half of which it occupied, and Finland over which it exercised almost total dominance. It has lost, irreparably, Yugoslavia. It has lost Rumania in all but name. In Hungary, the regime has become more relaxed and more inimical to Soviet influence. Finally, there are threatening developments for the Soviet Union in Poland. Seen from the Soviet side, this shows a steady pattern of retreat and disintegration."—[Official Report, 3 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c. 193.]
  Why are we not retreating in the same way from defence expenditure, to follow that self-same retreat, instead of repeating time and again the myth that the Soviet Union is expansive and increasing? It was said that one trusts that the deterrents will work. Why did we not maintain the deterrents at the position that existed when the mutually assured destruction theory was held to be valid in 1963? At that time, both sides could effectively deter, because they were potentially able to exterminate each other.
  Since 1963, why have the United States of America and NATO in particular increased their nuclear armoury many fold? The Soviet Union has also done so, but to a lesser extent. Why was the deterrent capability not maintained at the level found in 1963? In 1963 it was agreed that there was a deterrent. We now have many more nuclear
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  weapons. We cannot go on in this platitudinous haze in which we say that the Russians are building up their weapons and in which they say that we are building up ours. Inexorably, we shall move towards the point at which those weapons are used. We must call a halt to the reckless arms race that both sides indulge in while they echo platitudes about wanting multilateral disarmament and while waiting for the other side to make a move.
  Dr. Glyn: The hon. Gentleman rightly highlighted 1963. Does he not agree that, although there may have been parity at that time, the Russians refused to allow any form of inspection of their weapons on the other side of the Urals? Therefore, we knew that they were still making atomic weapons. We were lucky to get the Nassau agreement, which gave us superiority.
  Mr. Cryer: The cry for superiority has been echoed by both sides. However, I shall turn to the subject of inspection later, because it is relevant to my remarks. The hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn) is right to imply that inspection is a key factor. It calls into question the Government's sincerity in calling for peace negotiations.
  I question the integration with and reliance on the American deterrent system by both this and previous Governments. More than 100 RAF bases are occupied in whole or in part by the Americans. No debate has been specifically raised in Parliament on that point. The gradual increase of integration with American foreign and defence policy means our subordination to that policy. We are increasingly unable to exert any independance influence. It is interesting to note that much of that gradual subordination to the American will has been carried out under a cloak of secrecy. That is not new.
  Under successive Governments, Britain developed an atomic bomb without Parliament's express authority. Nevertheless, we are supposed to live in democracy. Having developed the bomb without Parliaments' approval, and without—in a democratic State—any democratic consent, the bomb's explosion in 1952 could hardly be hidden. An announcement was made by means of a pre-arranged parliamentary question. The late Sydney Silverman—a doughty fighter for peace if ever there was one, —asked the then Prime Minister about the cost. The Prime Minister, then Winston Churchill, said:
  "As to the cost, I have said before, as an old Parliamentarian that I was rather astonished that well over £100 million should be dispersed without Parliament being made aware of it. I was a bit astonished. However, there is the story, and we now have a result which on the whole, I think, will be beneficial to public safety. As for the future, I think we must be guided by the precedents established under the last regime as to detailed accounts and the way in which the expenditure is recorded." —[Official Report, 23 October 1952; Vol. 505, c. 1271.]
  Secrecy was justified by someone who is regarded by many as a defender of parliamentary accountability.
  Since then, the process has gone on. It came to light that the Labour Government spent £1 billion on operation Chevaline without any parliamentary authority and without any consultation of the public. When questions are raised about the American presence on more than 100 RAF bases—I shall come to the way in which the Ministry of Defence cloaked the issue—it is always said that an agreement was reached in 1951 between Prime Minister Attlee and President Truman. On 11 November 1931 I asked a written question. The Under Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force replied:

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  "More specifically, the use by United States Forces of bases and facilities in the United Kingdom is governed by the agreement reached by Mr. Atlee and President Truman in October 1951 and re-affirmed by Mr. Churchill and President Truman in a joint communiqué of January 1952."
  What was significant about October 1951? The House was not sitting then, because there was an election. Therefore, an agreement that gave the United States of America the right to use bases here was reached without any possibility of parliamentary approval.
  The subsequent joint communiqué, which confirmed the 1951 agreement, has never been debated in the House. The Minister's reply continues:
  "There are also a number of supplementary undertakings and agreements which either amplify these main documents or relate to the use of individual bases and facilities. Examples are the Exchange of Notes Relating to the Sale of Tobacco by the United States Government and the Construction of Housing and/or Community Facilities by the United Kingdom Government… No central record of such material is held, and the research which would have to be undertaken to assemble one would entail disproportionate effort and cost." [Official Report, 10 December 1980; Vol. 995,c. 680–1.]
  No doubt it would entail disproportionate effort and cost just like that which the Ministry of Defence would be put to if it had to tot up the cost of over 600 public relations visits by newspapermen in 1980. In a Department that spends £12·7 billion of public money incapable of obtaining the information from a central register, or is it dissembling despite the fact that we live in a democratic nation, in which hon. Members are supposed to be entitled to information in order to scrutinise Departments?
  It is extraordinary that the right of the United States of America to use so many Royal Air Force bases and to fly planes that use nuclear weapons should have crept up on us in such an underhand and undemocratic way. It is extraordinary that a Government—no doubt the previous Labour Government would have tried the same ploy—should argue that the F111s that carry nuclear weapons and that the nuclear weapons stored on Royal Air Force bases under American supervision are somehow related to the exchange of notes on the sale of tobacco by the American Government and to the construction of housing and/or community facilities by the United Kingdom.
  The use and deployment of nuclear weapons were not envisaged in such agreements. The Government dissemble when they attempt to argue that that was envisaged. We should be given a more open account of the use of those bases. I have asked several questions on this issue. On 18 June I asked the Secretary of State for Defence to list
  "the total number of bases operated in whole or part by the United States forces in the United Kingdom." — [Official Report, 18 June 1980; Vol. 986, c. 587–88.]
  His answer referred to the fact that several American bases were being operated on Royal Air Force airfields. Eleven such bases were listed. I carried on questioning, although on the basis of ordinary open government and honesty one would have thought that my first question was sufficiently straight forward. I asked for all the bases that were operated in whole or in part by the Americans. About three or four questions later I was told that there were about 50 such bases. I understand that more than 100 bases are operated by the American Government, largely on Royal Air Force property, in Britain.
  It is less than satisfactory that the Ministry of Defence should be so evasive about such matters. If the United
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  States has extensive use of RAF bases in this country, if it flies nuclear weapons on practice or training runs or NATO-organised runs and stores nuclear weapons, should not the citizenry at least have the right to know about such matters? Should not Members of Parliament have the right to question the Secretary of State and expect full open and honest answers instead of the dissembling that goes on?
  There was an article in the New Statesman by Duncan Campbell on 18 July called "The billion dollar phone tap". It was captioned "Menwith Hill Station. America's Big Ear in the heart of Yorkshire." That, too, is on an RAF station. It contains the largest interception operation by the United States outside America. It has never received the explicit approval of the House of Commons. The Minister might say that we are members of NATO and every White Paper—suitably shaded in periods of Conservative Government in a tasteful shade of blue—refers to our commitments to NATO and therefore that is all right. We approve it, but that is not good enough.
  If a foreign Power, friendly or otherwise, sets up an interception station employing over 800 people, that is reasonably significant and should merit the specific attention of Parliament. It is deceitful for successive Governments to have allowed that station, America's big ear on Europe, to begin operations and to undertake interception without express parliamentary approval.
  If it is not America's interception on telecommunications going in and out of the United Kingdom and is only the centre of the European communications network for the United States forces, that also should be known to the citizens at large because that makes us vulnerable to any attack in a future confrontation. The citizens have a right to know. They have a right to know the nature of the installation in which they are unwittingly embroiled.
  Mr. Wilkinson: May I question the hon. Member's extraordinary assumption—it was made, too, by his hon. Friends—that, somehow, by a close working relationship with our American friends, we are made more vulnerable and more open to attack. Surely the reverse is the case. It is by the closeness of our ties that our potential adversaries are deterred.
  Mr. Cryer: Even the Americans have accepted that their computer control system of their nuclear weapons is not the most perfect. There have been a number of nuclear alarms. Happily, nothing has happened. The then Secretary of State took the view that because the world had not been blown up everything was all right. I do not take that view. Either by accident or design, we could be sucked into a nuclear confrontation—by accident because of defective computers in the American complex at Colorado Springs or wherever, or by design because the Pentagon, having abandoned mutually assured destruction, is embarking under presidential directive 59 on the concept of a limited nuclear war in Europe.
  I know that it seems far-fetched, but the secret presidential directive 59 was leaked to the world at large. It was not published. It suggests that there should be nuclear weapons in this country, in other NATO countries and in America, targeted on military targets instead of the mutual destruction concept of wiping out whole cities. There is the aspect, too, that the Pentagon may embark on that notion. Once it thinks it can achieve a 100 per cent. wiping-out of Russian military targets, it is conceivable that some Right-wing extremists coming to power in

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  America could argue for a first strike against the Russians or the perception is that the Russians are about to strike and that the Americans must strike first.
  In such circumstances, we could be dragged into a nuclear confrontation for which we were not prepared or willing to be involved with our American allies. We are friends with the American people. We are friends with the people who forced successive American Governments to abandon the Vietnam policy. We are friends with those who forced Nixon out of office because of his deceit of the American nation. I do not say that the American nation is not a friend; of course it is. But it must not be a friendship of subordination. It should be a friendship of equals and we should be able to assert our independent views separately and, if necessary, in opposition to those of the American Government.
  Mr. Best: Does the hon. Gentleman think that we should withdraw from NATO? If not, is he not aware that the fundamental concept of NATO is that an attack on any one of the participating nations constitutes an attack upon them all?
  Mr. Cryer: Yes, I do think we should withdraw from NATO. NATO is a dangerous and secretive alliance, but that is not the view of my party. The Labour Party has not adopted that view and I am in a minority in the Labour Party. Labour Party policy is for this country to remain a member of NATO. Indeed, there is an argument that, in order to control some of the generals in NATO and to know something of the plans, we should remain members. I think that we should be better off withdrawing from NATO because it is an organisation that uses the deployment, involvement and threat of nuclear weapons. I am not prepared to support that.
  I add briefly one or two comments about cruise missiles as a question has been raised about verification. At RAF Greenham Common and RAF Molesworth we are to have cruise missiles that will be owned by the Americans and controlled by the Americans, except that they will be subject to the agreement reached between Attlee and Truman in 1951, taking into account negotiations that are undertaken in the light of the circumstances prevailing at that time. That was at a time when nuclear weapons were not envisaged as a consequence of the agreement. We know that a nuclear war can take place in minutes; therefore, negotiations will surely be somewhat academic.
  The reality is that in the American control of cruise missiles there is no United Kingdom veto. The only reality of a veto is when there are two keys and the United Kingdom Government can say "You cannot have our key to fire the missiles". But the United Kingdom Government do not have a key, and the Secretary of State has made it abundantly clear that the only way that we can have a key for the cruise missiles is to pay for it. We cannot do that because all our money is going into mad prestige schemes such as Trident, so we cannot afford to buy a cruise missile key to ensure that the Americans use their key only at joint discretion and not by some, perhaps meaningless, consultation at the time of confrontation when cruise missiles would be deployed.
  The second thing about cruise missiles is that they fly close to the land and the computer programmes to follow that flight path will be provided by the Americans, which gives them a crucial element of control. If the Government are serious about disarmament, and if their claims about
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  wanting disarmament are more than platitudes and meaningless verbiage, why have they accepted a missile which, by common consent and understanding, is one of the least verifiable of all weapons? It can be put on the back of a lorry. It can be shifted into and out of a silo and down the road into a shed, an old tunnel or the middle of a woodland. It cannot easily be photographed by a satellite. In other words, it is not easily verifiable.
  That is the point that the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead made about verification between two sides, full of mutual distrust of one another. If we are to have a reduction in nuclear weapons that will give humanity some sort of guarantee for the future, we must have verification, and cruise missiles are least susceptible to that important and crucial element in any arms reduction programme. Therefore, far from diminishing the arms race, the acceptance of cruise missiles will enhance and increase it.
  It will not be long before the Russians also embark on a programme of cruise missiles. Ever since 1945, when such an initiative has been taken—mostly by America—the Russians have subsequently followed suit, as a result of which the momentum has increased.
  Dr. Glyn: With respect, the hon. Gentleman misquoted me. I said that in the 1960s we tried to establish some sort of reciprocity between ourselves and the Soviet Union about what atomic arms were available. That came to nothing, which is why we decided to embark on a programme of superiority. We still have no chance of examining the arms that Russia possesses which we cannot photograph from the air.
  Mr. Cryer: I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, but he has made the point for me. Verification is a crucial and important element in arms limitation, and cruise missiles will diminish and harm that aim.
  If we are really serious about reducing the arms race and arms momentum, we must break the military industrial complex that has grown up in America and Britain. It is true that a lot of jobs depend on the arms industries, and Conservative Members never make that point about other areas of public expenditure. Just as we claim that the increased electrification of British Railways and the building of houses through public investment would produce jobs, so defence expenditure produces jobs. It is the task of any Government—certainly of the next Labour Government—to switch from production of arms to production for peaceful purposes. However, we cannot expect people to go on the dole while we drum up some jobs at some future date.
  The switch can be made. Many plans have been put forward, such as the plan by the shop stewards of Lucas Aerospace. They demonstrate that the British work people have the ability, ingenuity and desire to halt this dependence on production for war. Indeed, production for war, be it nuclear or conventional, is seen to be a variable form of dependence, as the contract to sell Chieftain tanks to the Iranians demonstrated.
  If we sell to a reactionary regime, which is generally the case, that regime could well be overtaken in the future by another regime, and we could lose both military and commercial contracts because the new regime is antagonistic to those who supplied the previous regime with military hardware.
  We must also curb the apparently easy way in which members of the Armed Forces move into the defence

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  industries as part of the momentum of expenditure by those industries. Between 1975 and 1980, one air chief marshal, five air marshals, nine air vice marshals, six air commodores, nine group captains, 14 wing commanders, 34 squadron leaders and 10 flight lieutenants left the forces and went into jobs in the defence industries. They are included in the 255 senior personnel who have left the Armed Forces to go into the defence industry.
  We must accept that they form some sort of mutually reinforcing pattern. If we are to break away from massive expenditure to the preservation of life instead of its destruction, we must break this military and economic stranglehold which grips part of our industries.
  There are ways in which we can break away from this military expenditure. The myth perpetuated by the Tories about massive expenditure by the Russians and minimal expenditure by America and NATO simply is not true. Most aspects of Tory defence expenditure places us in greater peril and does not increase our safety. Part of the Labour Party's concern is to build a genuine peace policy so that we can move towards peace and away from armaments.
  8.5 pm
  Mr. Bill Walker: I shall endeavour to confine my remarks to what the debate is about—the Royal Air Force. Many of the speeches to which we have listened have drifted away from that aspect.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is not in his place, because he made such a desperate fuss about the interest that he was taking in the debate. He also stressed the fact that he served in the Royal Air Force. I must also declare an interest. I am a serving member of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. In fact, I have held Royal Air Force commissions of different kinds for more than 30 years.
  The Royal Air Force is a high technology service, whose members are required to undergo lengthy and expensive training. The hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) referred to the 4,000 pilots who are currently undergoing ground tours, and I was surprised that he should make that point. As a result of the way in which the Royal Air Force is run and operated, it is essential that pilots carry out ground tours. Their experience is essential to the operation, control and management of the whole organisation.
  The hon. Gentleman should also have known that not all those 4,000 pilots are fast jet pilots. There are different types of Royal Air Force pilots flying different types of aircraft, and it is not possible to take someone who flies helicopters and put him in a fast jet.
  Defence policy should properly and rightly give vital consideration to the needs of the service and the task that it will be called upon to meet. Although the Royal Air Force is a young service—indeed, a service of this century—it already has an impressive war-time and peace-time record. We in Scotland pay great homage to the Royal Air Force and are delighted at the search and rescue service which it regularly provides in our part of the world. We are deeply indebted to the Royal Air Force for what it does.
  The air battle experience of the Royal Air Force, and the lessons gained in two world wars, Korea, and other
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  foreign areas of conflict, should not be lightly discarded or, worse still, forgotten. The experience gained during the 1939–45 war, particularly during the Battle of Britain, as well as the all-weather experience gained in defending these islands, cannot be without relevance to the air and seaborne threats that we face today.
  We can also be guided by the experience of the United States Air Force in Vietnam. We can also learn from the Israeli Air Force, which is probably the only air force in the world with up-to-date experience of modern dog fights. The wars of the Middle East have shown us a lot, and we have a lot to learn from them. I believe that the "defence in depth" policy which was so successful in defeating Hitler's Luftwaffe is still a policy that makes sense even in modern times.
  Therefore, to defend these islands, the Royal Air Force requires an interceptor force that is capable of meeting attack both from the East and West. When we fought against Hitler, we were never unduly bothered about air defence attacks from the West. However, the Soviet Backfire bomber has the capacity and ability to fly in behind our traditional North-Eastern flank, and that is an important consideration when discussing maritime and airborne problems.
  The question that must be asked is whether the Royal Air Force has the best modern aircraft and equipment, and in sufficient quantities, to defend against the present threat to the United Kingdom. I believe that the situation inherited from the Labour Government contained many gaps. Can it seriously be stated that the Royal Air Force of the day is able to police our sea lanes adequately and to detect enemy surface ships and enemy submarines and, more importantly, destroy them? In these difficult economic times, we have to examine the real cost of maintaining the position and capability of all our Armed Forces. Inevitably, there will be pressures from each of the interested parties to declare that it is of paramount importance.
  The lessons of the Battle of Britain should never be forgotten. We could never have won the battle of the Atlantic if we had lost the Battle of Britain. It is sobering to realise that the Royal Air Force has only five squadrons of Phantoms and two squadrons of Lightnings to defend United Kingdom airspace. That was the inheritance left to the Government by the outgoing Labour Administration. They left a situation in which we had neither the aircraft nor the pilots. One cannot produce a fast jet pilot to fly a modern interceptor fighter in less than three years.
  The Lightning can best be described as the ancient chariot of the skies. It was a splendid aircraft, well ahead of anything in its day, but it is becoming elderly. Sadly, the Phantom can now be described as the middle-aged chariot of the skies. The Labour Government did not see the need to do anything to remedy the situation during their time in office. They wasted their years in office.
  The aircraft possessed by the Royal Air Force desperately need replacing. The Royal Air Force is also desperately trying to make up the shortfall of fast jet pilots. The most modern fighter aircraft at present available for the defence of United Kingdom airspace is the Hawk trainer modified for a defence role. A modern fighter aircraft requires the equivalent of at least one-and-a-half aboard to be successful. A modern interceptor puts special demands on the pilot. Until replacement aircraft are available, the Royal Air Force will be vulnerable.

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  I hope that there will be no question in the defence review statement on Thursday of the Red Arrows suffering as a result of an attempt to produce savings. The high standard of airmanship that they display regularly contributes to recruitment to the Royal Air Force and also to the sale of British aircraft. I would welcome a further assurance that this unit will continue to have the finest of Royal Air Force pilots and to be led by officers of the highest possible calibre and experience.
  Until the Tornado F2 enters service there is a worrying and frightening defence gap—a relic of the Labour Administration. The Tornado F2 is a superb aircraft. I must, however, express grave doubts about the estimated cost of £14·3 million per aircraft. Can we afford enough of these aircaft to meet the obvious waste that must occur during the early stages of a battle to defend the air space of the United Kingdom? I believe that advantage should be taken of the chance offered by the present depression to get our aircraft designers to examine seriously the possibility of creating a new generation of interceptor fighters—dare f call them budget fighters? They would be designed to he built in numbers and would be capable of being used in numbers to protect United Kingdom airspace. The lesson of the Tornado project is that we cannot in future enter into such expensive collaborative, multi-role projects. At a cost of £14·3 million each, the Tornado F2 is almost too expensive to risk in battle. I can visualise a commanding officer wondering whether to commit his expensive aircraft into an uncertain situation.
  We must examine the tasks for which we are using expensive modern aircraft and highly expensive and highly skilled air crews. As the demand on the anti-submarine Nimrod force increases, should we not consider the establishment of a volunteeer force flying less expensive aircraft to carry out search and rescue work coupled with fishery protection police duties and North Sea oil rig surveillance?
  I am at present preparing a paper on the logistics and costs involved in setting up and runing one, or possibly two, such auxiliary squadrons based in Scotland to carry out North Sea and North West Atlantic surveillance. I see the unit carrying out morning and evening patrols similar to the patrols operated by the Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force. I should like to place on record my thanks to the office commanding and staff of the Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force unit for the help I received in the preparation of my paper on my two visits earlier this year. The Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force is operated largely by part-time volunteers. It flies different types of aircraft. The type of work it carries out would not be dissimilar to the type of work that I envisage being carried out in Scotland.
  The tasks I envisage include the policing of the new EEC fisheries agreement, if that is ever achieved. The cost would be met by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Those in the Ministry will love me for saying that. Another task would be oilfield patrols. I see part of the cost of this operation being borne by the Department of Energy. A third task would be surveillance of North Sea shipping with checks on illegal dumping of oil. Again, the cost could be borne. in part, by the Department of Energy. A fourth task would be mapping the rivers and estuaries of Scotland, checking on the discharge of effluence into the rivers and other environmental projects. The cost of that would be met by the Scottish Office.
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  To carry out these tasks the aircraft required would be twin-engined and capable of patrolling the United Kingdom fishing zone and the oil and gas fields. At present, I am investigating the practical problems of using the Jetstream 31 aircraft suitably equipped with the avionics and infra-red cameras for the type of tasks I have listed. Hon. Members will not have missed the point that the Jetstream 31 is manufactured in Scotland. That is why I hope that the Scottish Office will respond by making helpful noises towards the setting up of the unit.
  It may be possible for the other Departments I have mentioned to share the capital costs incurred in setting up the unit and producing the aircraft. This would give them a stake in the project.
  I also envisage the unit operating two Bulldog trainers which, again, are manufactured in Scotland. These could be used for pilot training up to wings standard. Consideration would have to be given to the locations of the unit. The aircraft and the airfield from which they operate would have to be close to the source of population and yet near enough to the maritime areas that they were to patrol. My researches indicate that the airfields at Dundee, Perth or Arbroath would be suitable for this type of North Sea operation and close enough to where the volunteers would live. Experience of other volunteer units shows that there is a substantial pool of individuals prepared to give their time at little cost to public funds. I cite as an example of which I have some knowledge the air experience flights operated by the RAF to fly air cadets and the volunteer gliding schools used for training air cadets.
  In response to questions from me, my hon. Friend stated that the volunteer gliding units have 344 categorised gliding instructors, 54 of whom have served more than 10 and less than 15 years, 32 between 15 and 20 years, 18 between 20 and 25 years and eight between 25 and 30 years. Only one has served over 30 years. I wonder whether I am that one. I imagine that it is someone else. In addition, three commanding officers of the units have served between 15 and 20 years, two between 25 and 30 years, and one has over 30 years' experience.
  Many of the officers and instructors attend Sunday or Saturday of almost every week and some attend on both days. They are volunteers. Although I already knew the answer, I also asked my hon. Friend whether they were paid, as I felt that the House would like to know. They do it for nothing, which is vital. We have a pool of people, some of whom have served for many years. I calculate that between them they have served 1,500 to 2,000 years without payment. They are paid out-of-pocket expenses, but even those are limited. Unless the journey is less than 30 miles, expenses are not paid. I travel over 30 miles, and have not put in a claim for some years. That is my contribution to the nation's economy, and I am not alone in that.
  The group's existence shows that there are people prepared to serve the nation. They want to help people who wish to fly and do something interesting. I do not believe that we should have any difficulty in getting recruits to set up a volunteer force.
  From what I can ascertain, only one instructor has had an award in the Honours List. I hope that the Secretary of State can be persuaded to discuss that with the Prime Minister. The instructors are not alone, but they give their

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  time every weekend, with consequent effects on their domestic lives, and have not yet been recognised in the Honours List.
  Many of us believe that it is character building for a 16-year old to make a solo flight in charge of one of Her Majesty's flying machines. It considerably reduces the prospect of that person becoming a problem to the nation. I hope that the Minister will tell me that the volunteer gliding schools of the Air Cadets will continue to receive the Royal Air Force's full support and that the schools and their meagre budget for out-of-pocket travelling expenses will not be hit by defence cuts.
  Above average boys who have completed flying training with the units could be offered staff cadet positions in the new auxiliary squadrons that are mentioned, with a view to being trained to wings standard on Bulldogs. Experience in Hong Kong shows that they can be trained in under 18 months to become full wing pilots. The auxiliary squadron could then grow its own pilots in the way that the volunteer gliding schools have trained instructors for the past 30 years. It is possible in this debate to argue for the proposal in detail. As I said, I shall submit a detailed report and a comprehensive paper to my hon. Friend, which I hope he will seriously consider.
  I wish that time permitted me to deal with other aspects of Royal Air Force activity, but other of my hon. Friends wish to speak. The main priority is to make sure that the Royal Air Force's tasks are clearly defined and that it is given the equipment to do the job. We must balance a full-time professional force and an element of volunteers. It can be seen in the Royal Air Force Regiment that the calibre of personnel is high. We must be satisfied that the force has the men and tools for the job. The Royal Air Forces greatest asset is its highly trained, professional people. The House has a duty to ensure that they are given the equipment to do the job that we require of them.
  8.26 pm
  Mr. Christopher Murphy: Fifty years ago a prosperous relationship began between Welwyn and Hatfield and aviation. As the Prime Minister said earlier this month in a message to my constituents:
  "Everyone who has worked at the Hatfield plant—from the great pioneering years of de Havilland onwards—has made a tremendous contribution to civil aviation and the defence and economic growth of our country."
  It is appropriate, therefore, in a debate on the Royal Air Force to recognise the truly great importance of British Aerospace, to join in congratulating the people of Hertfordshire associated with the industry and to send good wishes for its continuing success.
  However, to a considerable extent, such success must depend on the Government's defence policies and expenditure relating to the Royal Air Force. In my constituency, the aircraft group is playing a valued role in the highly respected airbus consortium and in selling its spectacular new aircraft, the BA146. Those activities, along with a number of others, enable British Aerospace to operate in the open market.
  The dynamics group, also in my constituency, is necessarily greatly subject to the requirements of the Government and the Royal Air Force. Here again a number of projects are involved, including the
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  development of the advanced short-range air-to-air missile—ASRAAM—and the Sea Eagle air-launched anti-surface ship missile.
  The two divisions are key components of British Aerospace and have done much to stimulate the clear confidence in the company, as evidenced by the sale of shares earlier this year to employees and the public. Sea Eagle is vital to the British Aerospace dynamics group, in the same way as the 146 is vital to the British Aerospace aircraft group. Equally, however, the weapon is vital to the Royal Air Force if it is to have this crucial capability. It is the most advanced missile of its kind, and one which will have enormous significance in strengthening our defensive position.
  As a project, it also involves particular technical expertise and specialised knowledge to provide a foundation for the required development of a family of weapons in the coming years. That will have far-reaching implications for the RAF and the other Services. Not to proceed with Sea Eagle would mean greater reliance on the United States both now and in the future, with all the trade and employment implications, including those for many associated companies of great worth, which will result from such a decision, and could adversely affect ASRAAM, where such technology is imperative. It would be particularly tragic after the recently successful trials if the realisation of this project were to be jeopardised by lack of adequate financing.
  The Government have rightly always expressed their firm commitment to our nation's defence, and have advocated increasing such expenditure in real terms. It must surely follow, therefore, that the Royal Air Force should be given the essential equipment that it requires. To quote my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State's introduction to the recent Statement on the Defence Estimates:
  "The Government intend to support its advanced industries strongly, and to concentrate effort upon the areas where the greatest return in deterrence can be produced".
  I venture to suggest to my right hon. Friend and to the Minister that there is no better way to achieve that than by looking to British Aerospace which, after 50 years in my constituency, has proved its outstanding contribution to the defence of the realm.
  8.31 pm
  Dr. Alan Glyn: I shall be brief. My hon. Friend said that three things were important: first, the Royal Air Force must know its tasks; secondly, it must have the equipment to carry them out; and thirdly, and more important, it must have the voluntary back-up to be able to produce those results. In conjunction with that voluntary back-up, it must of course have the repair facilities over which the armed Forces must have control.
  Our debate is difficult, in that it precedes the Select Committee's report. However, it gives us a chance to look at some of the firm things that this House has considered. One firm point has emerged from the debate, and that is that there is no question of Trident's being put aside. We are going ahead with that project. That was made clear not only by the Minister in opening today but by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at Question Time this week.
  We are approaching a period of reorganisation. That reorganisation is not quite the same as the one that was suggested by Earl Mountbatten, that all Services should be

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  combined. It falls short of that. However, I am not sure how effective or more efficient it will be. How much will the reorganisation that is to take place save the nation? That is important. How much will it save in Civil Service personnel? How much manpower will it save? How much will it save in materials? No doubt my right hon. Friend, in winding up the debate, will say that we must wait until Thursday. However, it is a matter of considerable importance, because we are very stretched. Everyone knows how important I think it is to increase expenditure on defence, but we all know that there are limits. Therefore, the reorganisation must be considered in terms of both efficiency and cost.
  I want to say a word about convoys. How often we woke up in the middle of the night when we were in convoy, only to find that there were no ships around us and that the ship's captain had decided to take a different course, and we were all on our own. Convoys are important, because we depend on them not only for 47 per cent. of our food but for our raw materials and energy, especially oil. Also, of course, we have to defend our oil rigs. That, again, is a job that the Royal Air Force may be able to do efficiently.
  We must look at the whole concept of how to protect these convoys. Are we to be able to shift more responsibility from the Navy to the Royal Air Force? My right hon. Friend, in winding up, will probably say that we shall be able to do that job efficiently by using the Royal Air Force more than the old convoy system, which has served its time and must be reconsidered.
  We must remember that we live on an island. Unlike Europe, we are entirely dependent upon our air defences and our Navy. The balance between the two Services is delicate. The Government must decide on costs and possible duplications. They have to decide how reinforcements can be brought in as quickly as possible.
  One of the most important aspects for Europe is to be able to bring in reinforcements quickly. The Royal Air Force can provide that service. The Europeans have a different conception. Our commitments to NATO are all very well, but who knows from where the thrust will come? It is likely to come at the most unlikely place and time. It is difficult to decide how to reinforce in the best way, in the conventional sense. Perhaps our whole conception will have to be changed.
  I have always believed that Europe should play a greater role in defending itself. We have to defend the sealine, but, more important, we have to ensure that food and materials are supplied to our forces and civil population. Europe is close to the great threat. I do not wish to rehearse the arguments expressed by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer). I can remember how hard we had to work to establish some form of inspection between the Soviets and ourselves. At least we now have some knowledge about how much they have built. We now know that the Soviets have built up their forces.
  We have to keep our forces in trim to maintain superiority. Only from superiority are we able to negotiate any form of peace. More important, we must remember that the peace of our nation depends upon our ability to defend our own interests, with the Americans. However, we can rely on the Americans only for four years at a time, because of the tenure of the Presidency.
  The Royal Air Force and the Navy must maintain their mobility. They must be able to go to any part of the world quickly. They must be able to take with them ancillary
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  troops. It will certainly be necessary to defend our interests even outside the NATO area, on which materials such as oil depend so much. I hope that on Thursday, when we hear the full story, some of the answers will be given.
  8.38 pm
  Mr. Paul Hawkins: I apologise to the Minister of State for not being present to hear his speech but I had two Select Committees to attend. I wish the Minister well in his new job. I hate the idea of him losing his title because it is an honourable one. However, in principle it is a correct move. One can be too tied to a particular Service—as I probably was to the Army—to have an uncluttered view of the whole defence system. We all have to work together in defence.
  I intended only to speak on one narrow point, but what has been said by some Opposition Members makes me want to enlarge on what I intended to say. I do not believe what the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) said about there being 100 airfields under the control of the United States Air Force. I live in an area that is cluttered with air bases, and I know of only one. Marham airfield in my constituency is one of the biggest bases in the country, and American bombers visit for a competition once a year. That does not put Marham under the control of the United States Air Force. Swanton Morley, in my constituency, as far as I know is not under the control of the United States Air Force. We know of Lakenheath. The hon. Mernber is exaggerating.
  The hon. Member for Keighley also said that he was astonished by the large number of service personnel who move into civilian jobs. He mentioned several admirals and generals. They are people used to discipline and to the command of men and are in demand by industrial concerns in civilian life for many jobs. I was shocked to know of one job which is being done by civilians and that is the arming of our Polaris submarines. They recently refused to do it. In my view it should be done by Service men.
  Opposition Members stated that Russia was a peace-loving nation, and we could well throw all our weapons into the sea and do without them. I respect the view of a pacifist, even a belligerent pacifist such as the hon. Member for Keighley, but I wish that he and some of his hon. Friends had been with me and my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) at the Western European Union meeting, where my hon. Friend made one of his best speeches. My hon. Friend always makes a good speech on defence matters in the House. He has produced several outstanding Western European Union reports.
  I wish that those Opposition Members had been with us when we listened to General Rogers last week in the Western European Union meeting. He stated that Russia outnumbered us in all the main weaponry by 2: 1 or 3:1 and that the quality of Russian weapons had caught up with ours. It was a sombre speech, in which he told us that 675 SS20 warheads had been deployed on the Russian front whereas our planned 500 warheads will not be brought in for two-and-a-half years. He emphasised that we must put over these facts to our constituents so that they would understand better what the free Western world is up against.
  I know that it is difficult for a democracy—a prosperous democracy in spite of all our unemployment—to understand the way in which Russia has depleted its consumer goods and allowed food to be rationed in most

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  of the country. Russia's agriculture is poor, to say the least. Why else should it have to import so much food? Yet it has put all those weapons into the front against the small allied forces of NATO.
  As General Rogers said, Russia was in a defensive position in the 1970s, but in the 1980s it has moved into an offensive position. We must rouse our people to understand why it is necessary to have our small forces. For the sake of liberty—which we have now, but disregard—we must pay more if we are to have the defences that Britain deserves.
  After listening to General Rogers, we had a most impressive and interesting talk for one-and-a-half hours with a leader of Solidarity in Poland. He said that Poland would never change from being a Socialist country, but that it wanted some of our freedom. His plea to us was for this nation to wake up and understand the regime under which Poland lives, and which some of our Socialist friends on the Opposition Benches—who are not here today—would impose upon Britain. These interesting and awe-inspiring speeches and talks made me think again. I am prepared to pay more for our defences.
  Although I have spoken for long enough, I must mention morale in the Service. The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) said, and in general he was correct, that morale has remained consistently high. But from 1974 or 1975 to 1979 morale was becoming dangerously low. I think that, in his heart, the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that that was so. The Royal Air Force middle ranks were leaving in large numbers. The Conservative Party restored their morale when it came into Government in 1979. Morale is high today. We must not let down our Service personnel. We must give them the planes, the petrol and the money that they need. Expenditure on petrol and ammunition has been cut greatly. We must give them more encouragement.
  I have previously raised with my hon. Friend the Minister of State the question of officers and men living on their bases. Far too many of them live off their bases. If only we could adopt the principle of the tied cottage in agriculture, which has now been abolished, we could effect a great rise in morale. A greater number of men and officers would live on their bases, which would be good for morale. Currently, the rents are so high so that they prefer to buy houses in the neighbouring villages. That cannot be good for the morale of the base. They do not live in messes today in the same way that they once did. It used to be a good way of getting to know one's opposite number. That practice should be reintroduced. On some of the bases that I know many houses are unoccupied. We should let them rent-free to our Service personnel.
  I hope that we shall not in any way weaken the Royal Air Force in the statement to be made on Thursday.
  8.50 pm
  Mr. Keith Best: My only pretension for speaking in a defence debate is that I am a serving gunner. However, as an airborne gunner I have had something to do with the Royal Air Force. I have flown a great deal with it, but I have seldom landed. Within my constituency there is RAF Valley, which is well known to my hon. Friend the
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  Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie), the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement. My hon. Friend made a most impressive speech at a dinner that I had the privilege of attending when he visited RAF Valley.
  The House will know that the station is responsible for advanced flying training. It does a tremendous amount for the economy of the island. There are about 3,000 souls connected with the station, including the families of Service men. The spin-off from the station must be acknowledged. It is the busiest station in the Royal Air Force, with about 12,000 movements a month.
  My hon. Friend the Minister for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), rightly paid tribute to all the different aspects of the Royal Air Force, and RAF Valley is truly representative in that sense. There is the search and rescue flight, which has done a great deal to assist swimmers, climbers and yachtsmen who have been in difficulty. During daylight hours a helicopter and crew are at 15 minutes readiness. There is a mountain rescue team, which is of special importance bearing in mind the proximity of the mountains of Snowdonia. It has assisted many climbers who have been in difficulty.
  I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, when he replies, to refer to the civilians who are employed by the RAF. They have not been mentioned so far in the debate. I apprehend that the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East will refer to them when he replies on behalf of the Opposition.
  I wish to direct my hon. Friend's attention to contract cleaning. Considerable concern was expressed by the civilians working at RAF Valley when they realised that a survey was to be carried out. I welcome the survey. We must ascertain whether the present dispensation is the most cost-effective. I was heartened to receive a letter from my hon. Friend dated 31 October 1980. He wrote:
  "It is our intention to change to contract only where it is shown to be cheaper than a direct labour service, and provided that other considerations do not preclude it. I am afraid I cannot give you the assurance you seek on change being dependent on the size of the financial savings, however, since we have a very firm commitment also to make savings in manpower numbers. But, I am satisfied that we are going about this exercise in as thorough and fair a manner as possible, and that contract will be introduced only where such a change is fully warranted."
  I hope that my hon. Friend will refer to the review that has been undertaken and will be in a position to assuage some of the fears that have been expressed. My hon. Friend will realise, although many others do not, that the cleaning that is presently done on Royal Air Force stations by the station labour pool is only one aspect of the work that is undertaken by the pool. The various forms of work done by the RAF Valley pool include dusting furniture, emptying wastepaper bins, internal window cleaning, washing internal walls, cleaning messes and litter collection. There is a variety of work that would not be undertaken by contract cleaners. It is an issue that needs to be considered carefully.
  We all acknowledge the necessity for low-flying training. I receive very few letters about low-flying aircraft over my constituency. I can assure my hon. Friend that any problems that arise are dealt with expeditiously and sympathetically by the commanding officer.
  Will the Minister tell us what we are doing to try to encourage Germany to expand the use of low-flying facilities there? He will know how restricted the facilities are for our pilots there. Essentially, that is where much of the training should take place.

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  It is acknowledged that we need to have constant low-flying training. I know what it is like, as I knew in my parachute role that there is nothing so disturbing as flying in a C130 at about 50 ft. above the ground, hopping over the hedges. Careful planning is done on low-flying training. It is above the operational flight. Perhaps even the value of the present low-flying training is in doubt, but I believe that it is essential.
  I now come to the gravamen of my remarks—the question of the training of pilots. I should like to pay tribute to the Hawk trainer. Some hon. Members seem to deal with it with some ridicule, because we were seeking to arm it for the defence of airfields. I believe it to have a most effective role in that dispensation. The most important thing is that it is an excellent trainer. It has improved all-round vision and an efficient airframe. It should be known that it is the first advanced jet trainer ever to enter Royal Air Force service which has not been an adaptation of a fighter aircraft. It has also been put to immediate use without a service trials unit being formed, as has happened in the past. Export orders for that aircraft have gone to Finland and Indonesia.
  When Royal Air Force pilots come to Valley, they do 19 weeks' flying, which involves 85 hours, of which 58 hours is dual instruction, and at the end of that period the pilots receive their wings. It is an efficient exercise. However, something that was identified by the first report of the Defence Committee is the problem of wastage. For every fast jet pilot there are 70 applicants, of whom 30 are accepted. Although it is right that only 17 per cent. wastage occurs after basic flying training, which means that the greatest wastage is at the least expensive stage of a pilot's training, wastage is still high. When one considers that the total training of a pilot now costs more than £1·7 million, that is something that all of us, even the hard-faced devils of the Treasury, will look at particularly carefully.
  I do not wish to quote at length from the report, but paragraph 29 needs to be quoted. It states:
  "This leads to the final criticism of the RAF training pattern: that it compares unfavourably with the training of the commercial flying training schools and with the Army and, to a lesser extent, the Navy practice whereby pilots are given specific to role training from the outset. The RAF start from the premise that their primary need is to produce pilots for the fast jet force and that it is therefore necessary for all pilots to do a substantial basic training course (costed at £78,000 per successful pilot) … On the other hand it could be argued that helicopter pilots could be fully trained on helicopters or possibly helicopters and light piston-engined aircraft".
  A similar case can be made for the multi-engined force. I know that that matter is being examined by my hon. Friend the Minister. Perhaps he will be able to tell us tonight what course that examination is taking and whether he has been able to come to any conclusion as a result of the criticism that was made, with a view, perhaps, to move towards sub-contracting basic fixed-or rotary-winged flying training to a commercial flying school.
  In the few minutes remaining to me I would like to say something about the reserves. I do not have the credentials of my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker), who has a long record in the Royal Air Force Reserve. A number of hon. Members have raised that matter. I hope that my hon. Friend will say something about the need to expand the Royal Auxiliary Air Force, not least on a cost-effective basis. We all know the extent to which the Territorial Army is an enhancement of the British Army of the Rhine. The same
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  could be done in the Royal Air Force. I suspect that the question is not being looked at sufficiently closely at the present time.
  I have the privilege of chairing the Bow Group's standing defence committee. It was chaired very ably by my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) before I took over. It has identified this aspect of the need to expand the reserves. The reserves could do a tremendous amount, not only in transport aircraft or matters of that nature, but in ancillary matters.
  I hope that the Minister will have something to say about that in his reply.
  9 pm
  Mr. Snape: With the leave of the House, I should first like to reply to some of the points made in the debate, in particular to the contribution by the Minister of State. I think that the he caused many of us some concern when he talked about the future, following the reorganisation of ministerial responsibilities within the Ministry of Defence.
  My immediate concern is with the Service hoards if they are to lose their own Ministers. Despite the view of the view of the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Hawkins), who welcomed the decision, I should have thought that, without a Minister present to guide and give the political viewpoint, other Ministers in the Department could well be faced with a fait accompli from civil servants and Service chiefs who are rather good at arriving at various conclusions and then presenting them to their Ministers and asking for more or less immediate action. If the Minister of State feels that I have misinterpreted what he said at the beginning of the debate—and I see that he does—no doubt the Under-Secretary of State will be able to put me right. But, if I am correct in my view, it is a matter that causes justifiable concern on each side of the House.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) intervened to say that he had heard a rumour—perhaps he should not listen to rumours—that the debate had been rushed because Thursday's statement would show that the Government proposed to do nothing further about the air defence of the United Kingdom or t he strengthening of our defences. Given the savaging that Labour Ministers had during their period of office, and the savaging that some of them still get now that they are in Opposition, I hope that the Under-Secretary will be able to deny that rumour when he replies to the debate.
  The Minister of State, in response to something I said in the course of last year's Royal Air Force debate, mentioned the role of women in the Royal Air Force. I made no apologies last year for discussing that topic arid, choosing my words carefully, I make no apology for discussing it again this year. I do not think that the Minister of State gave a satisfactory explanation of the difference in treatment between the sexes in the Armed Services generally and the in Royal Air Force in particular.
  Despite these days of supposed equality, I believe that women in the Royal Air Force do not receive equality of treatment with men. In addition to jobs such as traffic controllers, radio operators, engineers, and so on, the women do the more traditional secretarial and clerical work. They receive the same pay as men for those jobs, quite rightly, and they are just as skilled as their male counterparts. But they are excluded from flying duties. That means that they are also excluded from the higher ranks of the Royal Air Force. They play little part in the

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  planning and decision making processes, and are not even allowed to fly the lightest unarmed communications aircraft.
  I accept that there is the justifiable rule that women should be barred from combat, but surely, in the days of modern warfare a woman operating ground radar would be just as much at war as a pilot, and might in certain circumstances be in almost as much danger. Many women have already proved that they make excellent pilots. Now that many of them are flying commercial jets, the time has surely come to take another look at their role in the Royal Air Force.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Does my hon. Friend agree that, now that women in the Royal Air Force are to have a self-defence role in defending Royal Air Force stations both here and in Germany, it would be reasonable for the Government to give them the 10 per cent. X factor, rather than to keep them on 50 per cent. of that as they are at the moment?
  Mr. Snape: That is a valid point. I hope that the Minister will bear it in mind when he replies.
  The Minister of State mentioned JP233 in his opening speech. Given that the United States has announced its virtual withdrawal from that project, certainly the initials need to be changed, if nothing else. Perhaps the Minister can tell us where the "J" will arise without our partners. Perhaps he will also tell us whether he feels that there is any market for this weapon throughout Western Europe.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) accused the Government of concealing the real costs of defence expenditure.
  Mr. Best: And previous Governments.
  Mr. Snape: And previous Governments. If my hon. Friend is capable of doing his own accounting on the basis of the figures produced in the defence White Paper or indeed by the Ministry of Defence generally, he is a better mathematician than I shall ever be. I think that he was correct to warn the House of the drift towards war which seems to be becoming more widely accepted, certainly in the West.
  My hon. Friend also did the House a service by reminding us that arms reduction talks have been taking place in Vienna for seven years and that there appears to have been very little progress there. The Minister of State seemed to brush aside in a rather cavalier fashion the suggestion that there should be some regular publicity about the progress or otherwise of those talks.
  Mr. Blaker: There is.
  Mr. Snape: The Minister says that there is. I have never read very much about it. Perhaps I read the wrong newspapers and magazines. Nevertheless, I believe that it is incumbent upon the Government to produce regular reports about the arms limitation talks and to ensure that they are occasionally debated in the House.
  Mr. Best: The hon. Gentleman has touched upon a critical point. It is a pity that it has not been mentioned more in the debate. Does he agree that one can hardly blame members of the general public for thinking that the House of Commons is composed of polemicists if we keep talking about nuclear deterrents whithout mentioning all the things that the Government are trying to do in Geneva
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  and elsewhere to achieve multilateral nuclear disarmament? We should hear far more about that from both Front Benches.
  Mr. Snape: I am sure that the Minister will bear those strictures in mind when he replies. Whether the general public would appreciate the efforts of the present Government with regard to disarmament is another matter. I very much doubt it. I have more than a suspicion personally that, like the United States Government, the Government have paid more lip service to the principle of disarmament than played any active role over the past coupple of years.
  The hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson), who is unfortunately no longer present, mentioned for the second year in succession the question of insurance for Royal Air Force aeroplanes. He said that he had not had a very satisfactory reply last year from the present Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement. That is difficult to imagine, but that is what he said. In last year's debate, however, he received a reply from his hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), who is also not present, who rightly pointed out that any insurance assessor would be interested in the profit motive. It seems strange for a Conservative Member to complain about that, but that is what the hon. Member for Grantham said last year. He also pointed out that there would need to be a full declaration of the activities of the insured object before cover would be granted. I should have thought that that would cause difficulties not only to the Minister but to some senior Royal Air Force officers. Perhaps the hon. Member for Newbury will have to wait another 12 months for a satisfactory reply.
  The hon. Member for Newbury described the virtual ending of Transport Command under the Labour Government as the right step to take. There has been some dissension among Conservatives Members about that. I do not wish to refer to the hon. Gentleman too much in his absence, but at the time that the decision was taken, in 1977, The Economist agreed with that point of view. Transport Command was a legacy of our days east of Suez. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to bring back much a capacity in the 1980s. I am sure that the Minister will have it in mind that there are practical difficulties about going back to the days of Transport Command. In addition, the project would be so expensive that it could not be undertaken in the 1980s. Perhaps the Minister should do his hon. Friends a service and convince them that money, even under a Conservative Government, is not that available.
  The hon. Member for Newbury did not, on this occasion, refer to the reduction in flying hours that has taken place under this Government. He did not refer to the report that appeared in The Daily Telegraph of 17 February 1981. It was headed:
  "V-bombers bear brunt of RAF fuel cuts."
  Under the byline of Air Commodore G. S. Cooper—The Daily Telegraph's distinguished air correspondent, the article stated:
  "Savings in aviation fuel of about 17 per cent. have been ordered, cutting up to £30 million from the RAF's annual budget bill of £180 million. This will continue until April, 1982, operating restrictions introduced last September to curb defence expenditure … Squadron commanders in this country and Germany are finding it difficult to explain to pilots why the fuel cuts are necessary … But the main concern is for flight safety and the maintenance of operational capability. Fewer flying hours increase the risk of accident."

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  The hon. Gentleman may care to comment on that and on a report on the same subject that appeared in the Daily Mail of 27 March 1980. The paper contained the heading:
  "Pilots grounded by fuel cutback."
  Harvey Elliott, the Daily Mail's distinguished defence correspondent, said:
  "The RAF will be able to allow its pilots to fly for only 17 hours a month instead of the normal 22 … Junior pilots will get slightly more chance to fly to ensure that they reach a high standard. But senior pilots will have their flying hours cut even further."
  I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Newbury has rejoined us. When he spoke this afternoon I cast my mind back to a debate on the RAF that took place in 1978, under the then Labour Government. I had the unenviable task of sitting mute on the Government Front Bench as the duty Whip. I listened with interest to the hon. Gentleman's speech today and then found a report of that debate. In 1978 the hon. Gentleman quoted a pilot as saying:
  "If we flew any less, we would not just become operationally inefficient: we would become bloody dangerous to ourselves and everyone else."—[Official Report, 3 April 1978; Vol. 947, c. 130.]
  If the pilot was right in 1978, the RAF must—to quote the pilot's somewhat crude words—be bloody dangerous now. Pilots are flying fewer hours than they were in 1978. If the hon. Gentleman still holds the same views he should have expressed them again, more strongly to the Minister.
  The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) gave us a detailed and intriguing view of what should be the country's counter strategy to Soviet global intentions. I hope that I have remembered one of his resonant and rolling phrases correctly. The Minister has written many books on these matters. Judging by the number of times that they are used for quotations, some of them must be best sellers, at least in the House. No doubt the Minister will explain the Government's counter strategy to the hon. Gentleman.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said that he questioned Britain's further membership of NATO—a sentiment that he shared with my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer). I am sorry to have to say, without their being present, that I never have much difficulty in finding out what they are against. I occasionally have difficulty in finding out what they are for. If they believe, as they have said—I accept that they hold these views sincerely—that Britain should quit NATO, they should draw up an alternative defence strategy. My hon. Friend the Member for Walton said, and I applaud him for it, that the country should have decent, proper, armed forces. Before embarking on another series of Labour Party conferences in which we fight and fight again to overturn conference decisions, both my hon. Friends and any other hon. Member on either side who feels that way, has a duty to devise an alternative defence policy, rather than leaving us to rely on sentiments or cliches.
  The hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins) made such a good speech—if I may say that without unduly blighting his career—that I was unclear whether he was advocating more State aid for the aircraft industry or whether, as a good Tory, he was advocating less.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: I was advocating more.
  Mr. Snape: In that case my illusions are well and truly shattered, because these days even the good Tories are advocating more State aid. Most of them in their own
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  constituencies advocate greater State aid for private as well as public industry, although they deplore both on some occasions when speaking about someone else's constituency.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) in a sound and wide ranging speech, answered the question raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Walton and Keighley. Quite correctly, he stressed the importance of our NATO membership, especially its future influence on the United States. Again I question my hon. Friend's in their absence about how an isolated United Kingdom could have any effect on the defence policy of any other country, especially a super Power such as the United States. My hon. Friend also mentioned the problems that will continue for some years concerning weapons and ammunition. He said that nothing had been done under the Government because of the pressures that Trident and the cost escalation of equipment generally had placed on the defence budget.
  The hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) felt that the United Kingdom should have air and maritime facilities. Although he did not say it, I gained the impression that he felt that there should be some withdrawal of land forces from the central region. He painted an interesting and horrific scenario of a Warsaw Pact attack in the central region and NATO and British ground forces going east to block that attack and meeting the inevitable refugees who would be moving west. He pointed out the social and family problems that such an attack would pose to what he described as the minutiae of Army barracks, and the problems to families and children. He did the House a service by pointing out such problems. Perhaps they should be submitted not only to Ministers but to the Defence Select Committee so that both sides could consider the overall strategy of the central region.
  The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker) has some pithy and pungent comments about what he saw as the failure of the Labour Government. I shall come to the effect of that Government on the Royal Air Force in general and defence policy in particular in a few moments. Whatever else his speech lacked, loyalty to his party was not one of them. In his strictures on the shortage of fast jet pilots he was being less than fair to those of my hon. Friends who were Ministers in the Labour Government.
  The hon. Gentleman said that the Tornado was an expensive plane. I am surprised that he is still in one piece, because any criticism of the Tornado normally means that the hon. Member for Preston, North flies at one's throat and accuses that person of unduly castigating his constituents. However, on this occasion the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire was perfectly right.
  During last year's debate, I said that it would be a brave squadron commander who would commit an expensive aeroplane such as Tornado to a compararatively simple and fast-moving target. For those reasons, the hon. Gentleman is quite correct.
  The hon. Member for Welwyn and Hatfield (Mr. Murphy) made a fine plea on behalf of his constituents. I am not sure whether it was a plea for more work on their behalf or a plea for them to provide more work on his behalf following the next election. I fear that he will be sadly disappointed about the latter, and perhaps even in regard to the former, given the Government's track record over the last two years.

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  The hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn) felt that Europe should pay more for defence. So say all of us. At present, what is arguably the weakest economy in Europe pays a considerable subsidy to the strongest economy for the privilege of defending that strong economy against attack from the East. Like the hon. Gentleman, I think that that is absolute nonsense. I suppose that the Minister will castigate the Labour Government and use that as an excuse for ending the offset agreement. I imagine that he will argue that it was not working very well at the time and that something else should replace it.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Geoffrey Pattie): Like what?
  Mr. Snape: The Minister is in charge and normally has all the answers. He should ask his civil servants. Surely the answer is somewhere in his brief.
  Mr. Pattie: I make it all up myself.
  Mr. Snape: I am tempted to believe it, having listened to the hon. Gentleman for the past couple of years.
  The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West felt that some Opposition spokesmen believed that Russia was a peace-loving nation. I doubt whether any of my hon. Friends think that. However, having lost 20 million people in the Second World War, I doubt whether the Soviet Union would be in too much of a hurry to go through a far worse experience in the event of a third world war.
  We must get away from the view that both sides must negotiate from a position of strength. The hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead made that point. I am sure that counterparts are to be found somewhere in the Kremlin urging exactly the same policy on the leaders of the Soviet Union. It is impossible for both sides to negotiate from a position of superiority.
  People in the West now say that the Russians have caught up and have recently overtaken us. I cannot remember a time when any Western leader has admitted that the Soviet Union was behind the Western Powers. That argument was always used throughout the 1950s and the 1960s. It was said that we must spend more and more so that we can keep up with the Soviet Union. It is all very well for Conservative Members to say that the Soviet Union has only just caught up, but at no time during the 1950s and 1960s did United States Presidents or British Prime Ministers admit that the superiority of the West was as great as it obviously was.
  Dr. Glyn rose
  —
  Mr. Snape: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not giving way. but I must finish by 9.30 pm.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best) made an impassioned plea on behalf of civilian cleaners at RAF Valley. I hope that the Minister was listening. It is nice to hear yet another Conservative arguing for State employees rather than private enterprise contract cleaners. Those hon. Members who have had dealings with contract companies will know that it is possible to obtain attractive quotations from contract cleaners. Normally they pay lousy wages. They have non-unionised staff. They carry out the specific tasks, and only those tasks, agreed between themselves and the management of the firm concerned. As the hon.
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  Gentleman rightly reminded us, the civilian cleaners at RAF Valley perform various other jobs that would not be done by contract cleaners.
  The hon. Gentleman was surprised that there had been little mention of civilian staff during the debate. He must remember that Ministers and, to a certain extent, Conservative Back Benchers, are on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot pay their normal tribute to the hard working dedication of civilian staff at the same time as the Prime Minister and some of her acolytes are rushing round the country attacking those same civil servants for undermining the economy. The hon. Gentleman need look no further for the reasons benind the lack of praise for civilian staff.
  There has been mention of standardisation of weapon systems. The great problem is that there is no single weapon system used by all the NATO allies. I have tried to discover how many different systems exist throughout Western Europe. I do not know whether my arithmetic is correct. I find that there are 39 different types of combat aircraft, over 100 separate tactical missile systems and 36 different radar systems in air defence use. This must surely affect both performance and pilot safety. Because of the diversity of fuel and ammunition requirements, aircraft can only re-arm and refuel at certain airfields. Again, this results in problems of co-ordination.
  We have heard during the debate how much NATO relies on the United States air tanker fleet. It is my belief that many NATO aircraft will be unable to use these air tankers because they employ a different style of mid-air refuelling. Exercises have shown that increasing the number of aircraft does not necessarily increase combat effectiveness. Improving communications and standardisation is surely a top priority.
  Fuel is in particular, a major constraint. It is an especially important matter in an era of steep increases in energy prices. It is not only cost that is a major factor. So, too, is the fact that NATO fuel dumps would be a prime target for enemy action. We come back to standardisation. Although NATO adopted a standard jet fuel based on commercial octanes, most multi-role aircraft, particularly those of the United States, are not able, I understand, to operate on this fuel. This is particularly important when the A10 is the predominant CAS aircraft on the central front. Spot shortages of key fuels would surely cripple our front line air capability despite adequate supplies of other octanes.
  A great deal has been heard during the debate of the Hawk. Whatever the hon. Member for Anglesey rightly says about the Hawk, it is no substitute for 50 Phantoms. It is a fine aircraft. Hon. Members have heard little since the Prime Minister came back from Saudi Arabia about the future of the Hawk aircraft. A few newspaper headlines that arose from the Prime Minister's visit in April are worth recalling.
  "Thatcher nets Saudi order"
  said The Guardian on 24 April.
  "Thatcher Gulf sales drive nets Hawk jet order"
  said the same newspaper a day later.
  "Maggie leads the sales drive for £200 million jets"
  said the Daily Mail, the Tory Party house magazine, on 22 April. Maggie might well do all these things. Hon. Members need something more tangible than newspaper headlines that the Saudis intend to buy Hawks to this extend.

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  Looking at the Royal Air Force and its equipment over the past two or three years, one can prepare a list of new systems, new aircraft and new developments. It would include the ASW Nimrod, the VC10 being converted to a refuelling tanker capacity, the Skyflash, the Sidewinder, the A9L, the Tornado F2 and the JP233, the Rapier deployment around airfields, the stretching of the Hercules and the shadow Lightning squadron, the mothballs having evidently being been stuffed back into the cockpit, so that it will not now happen.
  Does the Royal Air Force fly fewer hours now than at the height of the fuel crisis? In 1978, the Air Force Board, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford, agreed to provide an extra 50 planes for the defence of the United Kingdom. Where are they? The Minister gave us honeyed words and tough talk when he was in Opposition.
  The developments in the past two or three years have one thing in common—they were introduced or agreed by the Labour Government. The equipment and other innovations introduced by this Government would comprise a very short list. Indeed, I believe that it would be non-existent. Despite their bluff and blustering stance in Opposition, the Government inherited the Royal Air Force in its present form from the Labour Government and have done nothing to improve it. The improvements were agreed and the vast majority introduced before we left office.
  The country is lucky to have the devotion and commitment of the Royal Air Force personnel. Although we call it the junior Service, in the 1980s it is the premier Service. The House should see that its personnel, who serve us proudly and devotedly, are adequately rewarded and have proper equipment to do the job that the country expects of them.
  9.31 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. Geoffrey Pattie): I listened with considerable interest to the comments made in this interesting debate. I shall answer as many as I can, but I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I devote a few moments to a valedictory address to the Service of which I have been the political head for just over two years.
  They have been happy sometimes difficult, but always stimulating and rewarding years. In a comparatively young Service, whose equipment is at the forefront of rapid technological innovation and change, it would be difficult for them to be other than challenging and exciting. However, the aircraft, which are marvels of inventive ingenuity, are only as good as the men and women who operate them. During my many visits to Royal Air Force stations at home and abroad I am left in no doubt about the excellence and dedication of the young men and women who comprise this fine Service and of the civilian staff who assist them.
  I pay tribute to them all—to those who serve on the ground, manning communications equipment, directing aircraft, maintaining systems and ensuring good administration, no less than to those who serve in the air. As an RAF recruiting advertisement so accurately puts it, without this closely integrated team effort the aircraft would simply not get off the ground. I should also like to thank my colleagues on the Air Force Board and in the Civil Service for their guidance and assistance during my
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  tenure of office. Although my contact with the Service will now become more tenuous, I shall always keep a friendly eye on its development.
  Finally, I say a heartfelt "Thank you" to the long-suffering members of the British public who live near Royal Air Force stations or ranges and, therefore, see the concentrated activity of our own and Allied aircraft, and to those who see and hear our aircrews carrying out their low-flying training. I cannot emphasise too much the critical importance of that training. In war time our pilots' ability to fly fast and low beneath enemy radar cover will help to ensure that the toll of their numbers is kept to a minimum and the damage inflicted on the enemy to the maximum. I know that such peace-time activities are considered by many to be an intrusion and a disturbance, but I emphasise that we do all that we can to keep them to a minimum and to ensure safety.
  Low flying in itself is no more inherently dangerous than other forms of Royal Air Force Training, and the risk to the public is very small indeed. I recognise that our training could not go on without the continued understanding and forbearance of the British public. I hope that they will see the activities in the same light as I do—an insurance for peace and a means of ensuring that, should we fail in our goal of maintaining peace, our young men can do their job and face no more risk than they absolutely have to.
  The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) asked about the ministerial reorganisation. Clearly, he did not understand what my hon. Friend the Minister of State said in opening the debate. I assure him that now either the Minister of State or the Under-Secretary is available to chair the Service boards. There is no question of the Service boards being cast adrift, as it were, without the the political direction that I know my predecessor, the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved), wishes to be exercised.
  The hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) spoke early in the debate. I remind him that the Government have provided more time for debating nuclear weapons than any of their predecessors. It seems to have encouraged the hon. Gentleman to make what appears to be more or less the same speech. I respect his sincerity, but repetition does not increase the veracity of what he says. We are not thinking of winning a nuclear war. Rather, our entire strategy is designed to prevent one breaking out. I do not know how many times we have said that, both inside the House arid outside, yet that was never mentioned in the hon. Gentleman's speech.
  The possibility of nuclear blackmail by the Soviet Union is never mentioned in his speech. The absence of a CND movement in the Soviet Union is never mentioned in his speech. The absence of any semblance of freedom of speech and thought in Warsaw Pact countries is never mentioned in his speech. The enormous increase in expenditure on arms by the Soviet Union is never mentioned in his speech. The fact that Soviet research and development expenditure is more than the entire research and development expenditure of the United States and all the NATO allies put together is never mentioned in that speech.
  The hon. Gentleman said today that there was some kind of fraud in defence spending. To be fair to him, that is a slightly new tack. We tried to explain that the fact that the increase in complex equipment costs is ahead of inflation means that we find it difficult to contain the new

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  equipment that we need even within real term increases. There is nothing fraudulent about that. That is simply a statement of fact.
  The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) does not appear to realise or to care that his line of populist questioning challenges the very nature of the relationship that exists between the United States and the United Kingdom, and that is the cornerstone of the Alliance and our defence policy. Moreover, that relationship has guaranteed the peace that we have enjoyed since 1945 and that has enabled the hon. Gentleman to flourish and develop his beliefs.
  Both hon. Gentlemen referred to Mr. Duncan Campbell and his journalistic scoop in the New Statesman in identifying 103 United States nuclear bases in the United Kingdom. The House may like to know that so thorough was Mr. Campbell that his list of nuclear bases included such strategic facilities as a petrol station on the Edgware Road, at which United States forces may buy duty-free petrol.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: The Minister says that our arms are purely defensive, to stop a war. He must know that that is precisely what the Russians say about theirs. Frankly, I do not believe either.
  The Minister said that I was repeating myself. I think that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will recall that I spent three-quarters of my speech attacking the accounts that are presented by the Defence Minister, which, I repeat, are fraudulent, and this Minister has not attempted to deny that and explain in what respect they are not fraudulent. The increase in spending was 7·7 per cent. and not 4·9 per cent., which made a difference of £215 million a year to the taxpayers. The Minister has not attempted to explain that.
  Mr. Pattie: I wanted to be courteous to the hon. Gentleman. I respect his sincerity in these matters. I had not counted on him making his speech again.
  When we look to the future we must accept that we cannot hope to match the Warsaw Pact's air forces in terms of numbers. All that we can hope to do is to maintain our admittedly narrow technological advantage and the excellence of the men who operate our equipment. Technology is throwing up many new possibilities for weapons. The problem is in recognising the impact that they have on doctrine, and responding accordingly. The Royal Air Force's history has been one of responding rapidly to technological change. I am sure that it will be well able to meet the challenge.
  Given the ever-developing sophistication of the defence environment which will increase aircraft attrition rates, we shall have to start looking for weapons with a stand-off capability, such as air-launched conventional cruise missiles. This, in turn, will require the weapons to be intelligent. The great precision and accuracy of such systems will mean that they are ideally suited to the attack of high value, fixed targets which will be particularly heavily protected.
  The day might not be far off when we shall witness a manned aircraft—and I emphasise that—which does not simply have weapons hanging from it but which will be accompanied by a slave flock of remotely piloted vehicles which will be used to get into high attrition areas. For the
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  moment, however, we shall need equally smart munitions which can be used by aircraft against targets of opportunity in the fluid, forward area of the battlefield.
  Given the numerical preponderance of the Warsaw Pact and its philosophy of massive concentration of force, these will need to be area weapons which are dual-capable in that they will not only be able to knock out vehicles and so-on on contact, but, if direct hits do not occur, will be able to change their mode to that of a mine, whether using delayed action or contact, to further impede, delay or deny access to the enemy.
  The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East seemed to be unaware of a publication that exists to give the public news about Government efforts in disarmament. The publication is called "Arms Control and Disarmament". It comes out quarterly. It was launched in August 1979 by this Government for the express purpose of making the public more aware of what is happening in disarmament. It has been referred to at least 10 times in the House. Copies are available in the Library.
  Mr. Stephen Ross: Hon. Members would be pleased to be sent copies of that document. For the last six months I have been asking for an explanation of defence policy and some insight into what is happening. That has been denied me. The former Secretary of State offered it but the present Secretary of State does not.
  Mr. Pattie: White Papers should be sufficient indication of Government policy. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman goes to the Library and reads the publication, like anybody else.
  Mr. Snape: I agree that hon. Members on both sides should be informed. The publication with the unsexy title, the name of which I have already forgotten, is not widely available to the general public.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: It is.
  Mr. Snape: If it is, perhaps Saatchi and Saatchi should be employed to publicise it. If the Government want to impress the public with their policies they should do a better job because, after all, the public pays for such information.
  Mr. Pattie: I shall see whether an illustrated version of the publication can be prepared for the hon. Gentleman.
  I was asked about the latest figures for accidents, about which it is said there is public concern. In 1980 there were 23 serious Royal Air Force accidents, two fewer than in 1979. The accident rate of 0·47 per 10,000 flying hours also shows a significant reduction. In 1979 the figure was 0·52. So far this year there have been five serious Royal Air Force accidents involving the loss of three aircrew with no civilian casualties. Again, I stress, as did my hon. Friend the Minister of State, that low flying training is not itself inherently more dangerous than any other form of Royal Air Force training.
  The hon. Gentleman also referred to women, and his hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford spoke of women being deployed in an airfield defence role. I do not think that he is accurate in saying that. Women are authorised to carry personal weapons to defend themselves. That does not mean that they will necessarily be spread around in a perimeter defence role. Flying training fuel saving is much easier to do with a transport force. There is no question of safety being jeopardised.

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  The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East also asked about the phasing-out of the Shackleton and the introduction of the airborne early warning Nimrod aircraft. I assure him that there will be no gap. Although the rundown of the Shackleton will be accelerated, as my right hon. Friend announced on 20 January, and the force will be reduced by about half, it will not be finally withdrawn until the Nimrod enters service in a few years' time.
  The hon. Gentleman also stated that the failure rate in the fast jet flying training is 70 per cent. I do not know where he came by that figure. It is not the figure that is included in the Ministry's evidence. The wastage rate in the fast jet stream to which I take it he refers, is less than 50 per cent. Of those who do not qualify as fast jet pilots, many are not lost to the service because they re-enrol as multi-engined or helicopter pilots, navigators, or officers in ground branches.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked whether some ranks would receive little or no increase in take-home pay from the latest award based on the AFPRB. That is true for some lower ranks when tax is taken into account. The review body was conscious of this but considered that its recommendations were consistent with the overriding principle for military salaries that income and costs should be broadly parallel with those in civilian life.
  I remind Opposition Members of the Government's record on Armed Forces pay. We have stood by our commitment to keep pay at levels comparable with those of their civilian counterparts. This has been a major factor in reversing the outflow from the Services that was a characteristic of the Labour Government's term of office.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) raised the question of the refurbishing of five Canberra aircraft and asked whether the contract would be awarded to Shorts of Belfast. The placing of this contract is still under consideration. I have taken careful note of what my hon. Friend said and will let him know as soon as a decision has been reached. My hon. Friend also asked about insuring Royal Air Force aircraft. I doubt whether I can give him more satisfaction this year than I did last year. Perhaps I may write to him again on the matter.
  Mr. Cryer: Answer the question.
  Mr. Pattie: I am trying to deal with all the points that can be dealt with. The hon. Member for Keighley can always ask my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury to show him the letter.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury also referred to the cruise missile programme. I am grateful to him for his statement that the bulk of his constituents support the stationing of cruise missiles on Greenham Common as part of NATO's long-range theatre nuclear force modernisation programme.
  I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) that we are alive to the wider and changing dimensions of the threat. I dealt with this in some detail in my opening speech on the second day of the defence debate, on 20 May. I do not suggest that my hon. Friend should re-read that speech, but perhaps he will take my word that it was said. We think that it is very important. Perhaps my hon. Friend will stand by and watch this space for further announcements on Thursday.
  I was surprised that the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford chose to refer to the shadow Lightning squadron
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  as a "Phantom" in the same breath as he dragged out that old debating war-horse of the previous Administration, the concept of 50 more air defence aircraft for the Royal Air Force. I thought that one had collapsed by now. I remind him yet again, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister reminded him within weeks of his departure from office, that whatever thought he and his colleagues might have given to that illusion of 50 more aircraft, they made no financial provision in the Ministry of Defence long-term costings. Therefore, his identification of the need is totally meaningless.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Can the Minister confirm that the Air Force Board agreed to recommend that the desperate need of the Royal Air Force was for 50 more air defence fighters? If it had not been for the intervention of a general election, that recommendation would have been included in the long-term costings. Will the hon. Gentleman cease trying to excuse himself and his political colleagues for failing to do what they promised when in Opposition—to make the air defence of Britain a viable and proper organisation?
  Mr. Pattie: What would or would not have been done had the hon. Gentleman returned to office as Minister with responsibility for the Royal Air Force must remain one of the great imponderables of history. There is further confusion about the nature of our shortfall to the number of officers receiving flying pay. It is legitimate to ask about the number of officers receiving flying pay. I wrote to the hon. Gentleman on 7 July last year, following last year's Royal Air Force debate. I regret that I failed to enlighten him. I shall not read out the letter now.
  The shortfall lies in our junior officer pilot requirement. By giving priority to the manning of flying appointments, the shortfall manifests itself in the undermanning of ground posts normally filled by pilots. The hon. Gentleman will remember from his experience that although it may seem anomalous that ground appointments are filled by junior officers, there are some posts in respect of which recent flying experience is essential
  Mr. Bill Walker: That is correct.
  Mr. Pattie: My hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker) confirms my point. Flying pay is paid to all officers who remain appointable to flying duties, which include multi-engine, rotary wing as well as fast jet. It includes navigators as well as pilots, and senior officer pilots as well as junor officer pilots. My hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire covered that point eloquently from the background of his service experience in the Royal Air Force. Therefore, I shall not pursue that matter further.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury and others raised questions about the utilisation of civilian air transport assets—both personnel and equipment—in times of tension. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins) raised a point about the modification of commercial aircraft to a tanker role. We have considered that proposal in the past. Attractive as that option appears at first sight, there are geniune difficulties with the cost of modifications and compensation to airlines for the operational penalties involved. Obviously, the aircraft would be heavier and more expensive to operate.
  We have no plans to incorporate civilian aircrew into some form of flying reserve. As I said in last year's Royal

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  Air Force debate, I am attracted to that option. However, we are considering varous support roles for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force, where part-time auxiliaries could be trained to make a cost-effective and worthwile contribution to our defence effort. I am thinking, for example, of the ground handling element of air transport operations.
  During the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North, my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones) intervened to ask about the future of the helicopter project. I am afraid that that project, like all other specific equipment questions, and also the EH101 replacement for the Sea King will have to await my hon. Friend's announcement on Thursday. I am sure that my hon. Friend understands that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North raised a series of cogent and important points about the procurement executive, and touched on such matters as cost-plus contracts, various reforms in the Procurement Executive, doubts about the operational requirement branch and the importance of production technology. One of the aims of the ministerial reorganisation at the Ministry of Defence is that there are now two Ministers with responsibility for equipment. That will provide more time to examine that sort of problem, which has never been easy for Ministers to get a handle on in the past.
  It is said that Service officers spend only a short time in the sales department. It is a reasonable argument. Career structures are involved. The problem can be tackled only if it is possible for people to make a career inside the sales organisation.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Preston North commented on the Queen's Flight and the new and excellent HS146, which was rightly and understandably referred to with pride by my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn and Hatfield (Mr. Murphy). Both my hon. Friends will realise that the HS146 will have to enter service and prove itself in service for some time before it can be considered for such a role.
  As for the demonstrator costs of showing the Sea Harrier at Paris, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the figure given by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North. However, I can confirm that the Government are obliged, in accordance with normal accounting procedures, as verified by the Public Accounts Committee, to recover in full the cost of loaning aircraft on a commercial basis, for example to companies exhibiting equipment at air shows.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire gave us an interesting account of his experiences with the fliers in Hong Kong. I echo the tribute that he paid to the marvellous work that is being done at the volunteer gliding units. The Royal Air Force and the country as a whole are in debt to the air cadet movement and all that is done by it.
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  My hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best) spoke about what goes on at RAF Valley. He referred especially to contract cleaning. I have nothing new to add to what I said in my letter. My hon. Friend asked about more low-flying training taking place in Germany. I think that the Germans would find that an especially unappealing prospect. They have greater problems than we do because of the span of population across the terrain. We are discussing with the Germans the possibility of doing more low-flying training in Canada. That will be an important opportunity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury asked whether it would be practicable to use surplus British Airways pilots for RAF duties. We have had discussions with BA. There are many problems. The sort of flying that is undertaken by the RAF is very different from that carried out by the civil airlines. To convert to the roles of the RAF's multi-engined aircraft would require a civil airline pilot receiving a considerable amount of training. That may seem rather surprising, but that is the position.
  Flying training is expensive and if it is to be cost-effective the RAF will need to be assured of some years of service from the pilots so trained. I suspect that few BA pilots would wish to take on the commitment. However, if there are BA trained pilots who are surplus to the airline's requirements and who are interested in an RAF career, it is open to them to apply for an RAF commission in the normal way.
  I have already told my hon. Friend that I shall write to him about insurance. I ask him to await that letter with patience.
  The industrial challenge was mentioned by several of my hon. Friends, and especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have stressed the importance of sustaining an adequate industrial base. This factor will be taken into account and borne in mind by my right hon. Friend when he makes his statement on Thursday. We appreciate that it is centrally important to sustain an adequate industrial capability if we are to give our defence forces the equipment that they need when they need it and, we hope, at lower unit costs.
  The Royal Air Force is a fighting service whose professionalism and dedication has won the admiration and respect of the free world. The Royal Air Force of today is a worthy successor to its predecessors who defended our freedom in the past. In my belief, the House can feel proud of what is being achieved.
  As I said at the beginning of my speech, it is extremely reassuring to go round Royal Air Force stations, to meet the personnel there, and to see a motivation on their part which, sadly, is all too rare in the rest of society now. It is almost like dealing with a vanishing breed of people who are not watching the clock, as I am, and who are interested in doing the job because the job is worth doing. In my opinion, the House can feel proud—
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

  Sex Shops (Planning Classification)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Mr. Mather.]
  10 pm
  Dr. Brian Mawhinney: I should like to bring to the attention of the House a problem which is becoming increasingly difficult in our country, the opening of sex shops.
  Presently there is no method of controlling the opening of sex shops. An established retail outlet can be converted into a sex shop without the permission of the local authority or of the local residents. That is causing increasing concern. Hon. Members on both sides of the House are receiving letters from constituents who are complaining about the opening of such premises and of the inability of the local community to influence their opening. Today, a number of right hon. and hon. Members have expressed support for this Adjournment debate.
  I shall quote two examples. The first is in my constituency, where a sex shop was recently opened in premises formerly occupied by a ladies' dress shop. The proprietor was told that it was proposed to open a secondhand bookshop. When the contracts were exchanged, it turned out to be a sex shop. That shop was not subject to any local scrutiny either by the authority or by local residents. It is situated beside some schools. As a consequence of its establishment, houses in the area have lost value and people cannot sell them. This week I have received a third petition including thousands of names of people who are protesting. The inevitable consequence is that violence has occurred, not only in the daubing of the shop with slogans, but bricks have been thrown through the windows. No one condones such activity, yet it seems to be a consequence of the opening of such an establishment without any local say.
  I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen) here, because the second shop I want to mention is in his constituency. It opened four weeks ago. A petition of 10,000 names has already been made because of local unhappiness. I understand that it is not individuals' unhappiness alone, but the unhappiness of local authorities which is increasingly becoming clear. I believe that it is proposed that Liverpool council should pass a resolution asking the Secretary of State to do precisely what I am asking my hon. Friend to do this evening, namely, to move an order to put sex shops in a separate planning category.
  Mr. Anthony Steen: I am leading a campaign in the Waverley constituency against a sex shop which has opened in a residential area surrounded by schools. We have organised a lawful picket for the last five weeks which is aimed at persuading the local authority to urge the Secretary of State to change the planning laws so that under the statutory instrument sex shops must have the same planning approval as fish and chip shops.
  Dr. Mawhinney: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The question now is, what can be done about this problem? There are two ways of tackling it: by licensing, or by planning legislation.
  According to The Guardian of 2 May 1981, the Minister of State, Home Office has said about sex shops:
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  "The Home Secretary is aware that there are those who wish to see a licensing system on a wider scale, and he does not dismiss this."
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, who will be replying to the debate, said in an answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Sir A. Costain) that
  "Betting offices are subject to separate but complementary licensing and planning controls, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has expressed his support in principle for a proposal by the GLC to introduce a licensing system for sex shops in Greater London. Further developments will depend upon experience."—[Official Report, 6 May 1981; Vol. 4, c. 98.]
  If we are to go along the licensing route, we have to wait for the passage of a GLC Bill, and we have to wait for experience to evolve from that passage. We shall then have to wait for possible legislation. That is too long and it is not acceptable.
  The alternative is to look at the planning aspect. I was very encouraged to see in The Guardian of 2 May that the Secretary of State for the Environment
  "is understood to support an idea which could help local authorities to control the spread of porn shops by changing the planning regulations. Sex shop owners would then have to apply to councils for planning permission before opening new shops".
  I accept that The Guardian is not the official mouthpiece for the Secretary of State; nevertheless, that was an encouraging start.
  As I understand the position, the general principle in planning legislation is that if a particular operation or change of use involves development as defined in the Town and Country Planning Act 1971, it will require planning permission under section 22(1). There is no development unless the change of use is material, and the definition of this is helped by the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1972. That order sets out 18 different classes, each of which groups together a number of similar uses. So in asking my hon. Friend this evening to create a special planning category for sex shops, we are not setting a precedent. We are simply asking him to increase the number from 18 to 19, and it is hard to see that that by itself would present an insurmountable problem.
  I understand that my hon. Friend's Department is arguing against the introduction of planning regulations. In a letter from an official in his Department last week to Mr. O. R. Johnston, the official said:
  "An amendment to the Order would not ensure that planning permission was always needed to change the use of a shop to use as a sex shop. Planning permission would only be needed when material change of use was involved. It seems likely that there would be many cases where no material change of use was involved. Even where planning permission was required, a local planning authority would not be entitled to refuse permission simply because they disliked the business being transacted at the shop or had moral objections to it. These considerations tie outside the scope of the planning system. It seems likely that, for these reasons, a change to the Use Classes Order by itself would not achieve the desired objective. It would merely provide the semblance of control without the reality".
  In the next paragraph, the official went on to argue that the Development Control Policy Note No. 1, which is the Department's official guidcance by way of explanation of these facts, substantiated his point. I should like to read to my hon. Friend some quotations from that policy note. It says:
  "Other material considerations in this context cover a wide field. Nor in general is it desirable that planning control should be used to secure objects for which provision is made in other legislation".

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  We would all accept that, but I have to point out to my hon. Friend that in this case there is no other legislation. The use of the betting shop as an example in that letter to Mr. Johnston is wholly without foundation because there is other legislation in that case, but not in this case.
  My hon. Friend will also be aware that the policy note talks about third party interest. It says that:
  "it should also be remembered that the purpose of planning is to regulate the development and use of land in the public interest. …
  For example, the effect of a proposed development on its neighbours"—
  people who live in the houses around the betting shop in Arundel Road, Peterborough, would certainly support that aspect of planning regulations—
  "including its effect on the value of neighbouring property is a consideration which can properly be taken into account in deciding a planning application…
  The material question is whether the proposal would affect the locality generally and lead to a change in its character which would be contrary to the public interest."
  My hon. Friend must accept that many of us feel that a sex shop situated in a residential area and close to schools changes the character of that area in a way that is contary to the public interest.
  Finally, the document states:
  "Representations by third parties about a particular proposal may be relevant, and indeed valuable, as an expression of public opinion, and may properly be taken into account."
  That is precisely what we want, because at the moment that expression of opinion by third parties—the local authorities and the local residents—is prohibited.
  Mr. Dan Jones: I am rather surprised at the hon. Gentleman, as it cannot be much more than a month ago that the Sainsbury Bill dealing with that precise issue was discussed. I am sure that when that Bill comes back from the House of Lords, as it will by next week, there will be an opportunity to raise this matter again.
  Dr. Mawhinney: As the instigator of the Indecent Displays (Control) Bill last session, I must tell the hon. Gentleman that he is not correct in his assumption. My hon. Friend's Bill does not relate to this at all.
  It would therefore appear that a planning order is an appropriate method of dealing with the problem. My hon. Friend the Minister will no doubt tell me that there will be a difficulty of definition. I accept that. But I must tell him that to define a sex shop under a licensing Bill will be no easier or more difficult than under planning legislation. It is my brief experience in the House that, if there is a will there is a way.
  Is it reasonable, therefore, to differentiate between different retail outlets? I refer my hon. Friend back to the Act. Class 1 refers to use as a shop for any purpose except those listed. He and I know why some of those exceptions are listed. He could not have bought the ladies' haberdashery shop in Peterborough and turned it into a tripe shop without planning permission. He could not have sold cat meat food from it without planning permission. It is difficult for the constituents whom I have the honour to represent and many others to understand why the House regards it as important to control the selling of tripe and cat meat food, but is unwilling to do anything about the effect of sex shops on the environment.
  Finally, I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the urgency of this matter. An acquaintance of mine recently
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  received a signed, but undated, letter from the retail director of Conegate Ltd., which is just one of the firms which involve themselves in adult bookshops. The letter states:
  "The company is the U.K.'s market leader in the retailing of adult magazines, marital aids, films, videos and is at present engaged in a multi-million pound expansion programme in opening a chain of 100 shops throughout the U.K."
  That is one company that is involved in this rip-off business. The letter mentions 100 shops in a multi-million pound expansion.
  What line will the Government adopt towards the facts that I have tried, as best I can, to present and the urgency of the situation? There is a demand for control. Indeed, there is an urgent need for control. Under planning law, we already control retail outlets that are much less objectionable in theory and in fact. How many sex shops must we have before the Government move? How long will we have to wait, how many petitions must we present, how many hon. Members will have to receive letters, how many children will have to be exposed to such shops because they are opened next to their schools, how many houses will lose their values and how many neighbourhoods will be blighted before the House assumes the responsibility that lies upon it to act?
  I am not one of those who believe that we should enact a comprehensive piece of moral legislation. However, when society brings a pressing problem to the notice of its representatives, and when that problem has virtually no socially redeeming feature, it is our responsibility to act. By tabling an order, the Minister can right a wrong and can allow this element of local control. We are not asking for censorship. We are not asking that no more such places should be opened. Indeed, there is a sex shop in the centre of Peterborough that does not cause anyone any concern. We are simply asking that the rights of those who do not want to be exposed to such shops should also be protected. They should have the right to say "No" as well as "Yes".
  We ask the Minister to right a wrong by allowing that element of local control and accountability. If he does so, he will stem a feeling of outrage and will help to fulfil an election manifesto commitment. In addition, he will satisfy a pressing desire on the part of right hon. and hon. Members.
  10.17 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Giles Shaw): My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney) has raised a matter of great concern, which is rightly exemplified by the number of hon. Members in the Chamber. I note that the hon. Members for Mid-Ulster (Mr. Dunlop) and for Burnley (Mr. Jones), my right hon. Friend the Minister, my hon. Friends the Members for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke), for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler), for Folkestone and Hythe (Sir A. Costain), for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen), and for Dudley, West (Mr. Blackburn) are in the Chamber. That demonstrates the feeling that this problem has reached such a proportion that action should be taken.
  Let us agree that our starting point is that the Government shared the views so eloquently and forcefully expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough, to the effect that there is a problem in the uncontrolled growth of such trading. Many people are worried that the proliferation of such shops into areas

  227
  where the ordinary public, and particularly children, go as part of their everyday business represents a threat to the moral well-being of our society—a threat that should be contained.
  It is bad enough when those establishments are set up in areas such as city centres. Indeed, my hon. Friends the Members for Paddington and for City of London and Westminster, South will know that there is a substantial concentration of such businesses in London. At least, by and large, such shops are located in areas where those who wish to use them will seek them out and find them. When they start appearing in ordinary High Streets or residential areas, the distaste that they generate is far greater.
  Having expressed the view that this problem must be dealt with, two things flow from that. One is that we must select a method of dealing with the problem that actually deals with it. Secondly, we must select a method to deal with it that is consistent with the other aspects of environmental legislation and planning law.
  A number of suggestions were made by my hon. Friend. His main suggestion, which the House will recognise, was that of the change to the Use Classes Order under the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. It is argued that that change could be made quickly. It would introduce a measure of control, imperfect though it may be, which would give local councillors and residents an opportunity to express views and which would enable local authorities to control, at least, the location of the shops.
  Those are objectives that the Government endorse wholeheartedly. It is my considered view that a change to the Use Classes Order would not be sufficient to achieve them, for reasons that I shall explain to the satisfaction of my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough. There is a popular misconception about the function of the order. Planning control would not be obtained by a change to the order itself.
  The Use Classes Order is made by the Secretary of State under the 1971 Act. Section 22, which my hon. Friend quoted, defines the term "development" for the purposes of that Act. Planning permission is needed when development takes place. The effect of Section 22(2)(f) is that no development is involved in changing the use of a building, if the uses before and after the change are in the same class in the Use Classes Order. That means that changes of use can be taken out of planning control by putting them in the same use class. Class 1 of the order covers shops and ensures that no planning permission is needed to change from one type of shop to another, apart from the listed exceptions.
  My hon. Friend quoted from the list of exceptions, which sound archaic. They include shops for the sale of cats' meat, tripe, pets and the retailing of motor cars, to name but some of them. They relate to material planning considerations, such as the problems of noise and nuisance. The offal shops give rise to problems of that sort and therefore they are found in that exemption order. The question of traffic and hot food shops, where the congregation of people on pavements will cause pedestrian problems, and the smell from hot food, the take-away and its litter problems, provide a material factor.
  When my hon. Friend considers a shop changing hands—it was a dress shop in his constituency, and initially changed its use to the sale of secondhand books, and now is apparently a sex shop—there is a change of use that does not have a marked effect upon the neighbourhood
  228
  shopping. He claims that it has an effect on the neighbourhood in terms of the quality of the location in which the shop is set.
  I remind my hon. Friend of the quotation from section 14 of the development control policy note from which he quoted. The effect of a proposed development on its neighbours, including the effect on the value of property, could be a material consideration. The note says:
  "The material question is not whether the owners and occupiers of neighbouring properties would suffer financial or other loss, but whether the proposal would affect the locality generally and lead to a change in its character which would be contrary to the public interest."
  Planning law, as my hon. Friend concedes, deals with larger problems—the utilisation of land, the determination whether there should be shopping areas, amenity areas or recreational areas. Because of that the simple change of the Use Classes Order, to say that that category of shop—assuming that we could define that appropriately—may not provide a sufficient consideration for the problem to be dealt with.
  We have to determine whether we can define that adequately. I was delighted that my hon. Friend concluded his remarks by saying that it was no part of his suggestion that we should become involved in moral judgments or should be on the verge of censorship of this sort of problem. The House must agree—I trust that it will—that planning law should not be confused with moral judgments and certainly not with censorship.
  That is one of the reasons why I am sure the whole House welcomes the progress made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) in regard to the Indecent Displays (Control) Bill, which will at least go some way towards dealing with the problem of display within certain shops.
  Mr. Dan Jones: When all is said and done, which hon. Member has the right to conclude what the noble Lords will decide in relation to that very point? I am in complete sympathy with the hon. Member for Peterborough (Dr. Mawhinney), but at the same time I am aware that at the present time the Lords must still deliberate on this point. Does not the Minister think that we should await their report, which I believe will make a contribution in the direction envisaged by the hon. Member for Peterborough?
  Mr. Shaw: I take note of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I ask his forgiveness if I attempted to suggest that the matter was cut and dried. Obviously, there will be further discussions on this question.
  Let me hasten to proceed to the other aspect of the problem—the licensing aspect. My hon. Friends the Members for City of London and Westminster, South and Paddington will be aware that we have had discussions about the problem in London. That has led my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the view that the licensing route may well be a more appropriate way of tackling this problem.
  Let me make two points. First, the problem of definition will remain. I remind my hon. Friends of the fact that apparently a bookshop can easily change to selling books of a kind to which the local community may take exception. That is an extremely difficult matter to pin down either in relation to the change of Use Classes Order, which deals with widely separate material factors, or the absolute definition, which would have to be argued in a court of law.

  229
  Nevertheless, assuming that definition can be obtained, the general powers Bill sponsored by the GLC will seek to provide at least a form of licensing—probably under the guidance of the local authority—which will endeavour to control at least numbers and locations, insofar as the local authority will be empowered to determine such matters when considering applications from potential licence holders.
  My hon. Friend went further and suggested that it would take too long to await the experience that this Bill could provide. The experience of definition, which is a considerable matter, must be awaited to see whether it will produce the kind of background to legislation that we need. Equally, if the GLC general powers Bill is found to be effective, I see no reason why it could not of itself form the basis of further action.
  I should like to have further discussions with my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Home Office, who is extremely concerned about these developments, to see whether there are any ways in which speedier progress might be made in the light of what the GLC proposes to do. It would be wise to wait until the first steps have been taken within the City of Westminster by using the GLC Bill, to see whether therefrom a template for national action can be defined.
  Mr. Steen: Five sex shops have spread into Liverpool in the past three months, and five more are likely to be opened. It is not good enough for my hon. Friend to say that we should wait to see what happens in London. This is a problem in the provincial towns, and some action must be taken by the Government.
  Mr. Shaw: I am not prepared to take action, even at the behest of my hon. Friend, if it turns out to be unsustainable in the courts and fails to prevent the problem that he seeks to remedy. My hon. Friend must be patient and recognise that we are dealing not only with the difficult problem of definition but also with a matter in respect of which much planning law could be at risk if, time and again, we found on appeal that we had to concede that the actions taken by local authority in good faith had no binding power in law.
  The House must recognise that we are seeking to move forward to solve a very difficult problem. I pledge that we shall do so with determination and urgency, and I am grateful for the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough introduced the debate.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past ten o' clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Rachel Trixie Anne Gardner, having been created Baroness Gardner of Parkes, of Southgate in Greater London and of Parkes in the State of New South Wales and Commonwealth of Australia, for life—Was, in her robes, introduced between the Lord Thorneycroft and the Baroness Young.

Government Offices: Access for Disabled People
2.45 p.m.
Lord Chelwood: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name of the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in improving access for disabled people to Government offices in the seventy-one towns for which a grant of £500,000 is available following the Report of the Silver Jubilee Committee on Improving Access for Disabled People, published in January 1979.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, work has been completed to improve access to Government offices in 39 of the 71 towns listed in 1978. The Property Services Agency expects work to be completed in another six during this financial year and in five more in 1982–83.
Schemes in 14 of the towns have been abandoned because no buildings suitable for adaptation could be identified. Investigations continue in the remaining seven towns.
Lord Chelwood: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if my mental arithmetic is working, his reply means that three whole years after this admirable project was first introduced about a dozen Government office buildings will still not have been modified? Therefore, is not progress quite excessively slow and is there not a clear case for speeding this up and trying to complete this project—excellent as it is—in this International Year of Disabled People? Finally, can my noble friend give noble Lords an assurance that the original sum set aside for this project will be sufficient without having to be topped up?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his supplementary question, although I think that his mathematics may be a little harsh on
960
me. I share his concern that we should see rapid progress, and the Government are considering taking urgent steps to find solutions for the outstanding schemes. On the financial question, we believe that the money will be enough.
Viscount Ingleby: My Lords, in view of the widespread interest in access for the disabled, will the Minister consider publishing a list of the buildings that are to be altered and the time-scale? Can he also confirm that the National Railway Museum at York, which has extensive projects for disabled people, is included in this scheme?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I can see no objection to the first supplementary of the noble Lord. So far as the second one is concerned, I have not got the information here but I shall of course let him know.

Breast-Milk Substitutes: WHO Resolution
2.50 p.m.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what decision was reached by the World Health Organisation on the proposal to establish an international code to restrict the sale of breast-milk substitutes to mothers in poor countries; what was the vote; how the United Kingdom voted; and which countries voted against.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, the World Health Assembly, which is the governing body of the World Health Organisation, voted on 21st May to approve a resolution adopting an international code of marketing practice for breast-milk substitutes in the form of a recommendation to member states. This resolution was passed by an overwhelming majority of 118 votes to one with three abstentions. The United Kingdom delegation voted in favour of the resolution which the Government see as an important contribution to the aim of improving the standards of child-feeding throughout the world. The only delegation to vote against the resolution was that of the United States of America.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us will want to welcome the attitude of the Government on this issue, and particularly the delegation which made a rebuke to the consortium of vested interests which lobbied against the code? Is it not the case that in third world conditions because of impure water, the absence of facilities for sterilisation, and the illiteracy of many of the mothers who cannot read the instructions, a million baby lives—hundreds already dead—have been endangered by past practices?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he said about the Government's attitude. I entirely confirm what he said about the danger to babies where water is contaminated

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and conditions for preparing food are unhygienic. I entirely agree with his views generally that this is an extremely important matter and many lives of babies are at risk.
Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord must be surprised at being congratulated by my noble friend. May I add my own congratulations to Her Majesty's Government. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware—I am sure he is—that it is not only a question of impure water, but that the women separate the fat from the milk and give it to their husbands, and the babies therefore—"Hear, hear!", says the noble Leader—get not only impure, poisoned powder but un-nutritional stuff? Can we ask Her Majesty's Government to impress upon the United States' Government, if possible—and at every opportunity in the UN agencies, World Health, FAO, and everywhere else—the dreadful practice of the aggressive selling tactics that the companies go in for?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, the delegation from this country made their views extremely clear and they fully supported what the World Health Assembly were trying to do in the code of practice which has now been adopted. It was only adopted on 21st May and consultations will now be going on with the manufacturers and others interested in this matter. So far as the attitude of the United States is concerned, I think they know our views, but I do not think we can do very much more than we have already done.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, does the Minister agree that even in third world countries breast milk is infinitely preferable to artificial substitutes because it contains certain essential nutrients which are vital to the health and development of infants and which are not present in any of the artificial products on the market? Referring to the code of marketing practice which was adopted in the resolution, can the Minister say what steps the Government are taking to draw this to the attention of firms operating in this country, and whether in the resolution there is any method for enforcement?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the best food for babies is breast milk. It has many advantages, about which I do not think I need tell the House. Some noble Lords may think that a more appropriate person than myself should be answering the Question and that the combination of the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and I might be improved; but still this is where we stand.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what happens when the mothers are starving and have no milk? What aid will then come to them?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, if the mothers are starving and have no milk they will no doubt be unable to buy substitute milk.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, in this unusually congenial atmosphere may I ask the Minister if he would
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join us in paying tribute to War on Want, which first exposed this evil seven years ago, and whether he will either insert in the Official Report or place in the Library the actual terms of the code which has been adopted?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: Yes, my Lords; I entirely agree with the noble Lord, and I shall certainly place this in the Library.

Battle of the Somme: Commemoration
2.56 p.m.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how they plan to commemorate the 65th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme next month.
Viscount Long: My Lords, there are no plans for commemorating this particular anniversary of the Battle of the Somme.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that reply. In view of the ominous and growing suggestions of appeasement in the face of militant Irish Republican demands, which date from the Fermanagh and South Tyrone by-election, and which are by no means confined to the extreme Left, is it not time that the Government counter-attacked in the propaganda war by pointing out to people at home and abroad who may have forgotten, if they ever knew, the heroic sacrifices made by our fellow countrymen from Northern Ireland in both world wars, most notably at the Battle of the Somme?
Viscount Long: My Lords, I fully recognise the question from the noble Lord. Very many brave Ulstermen lost their lives in the Battle of the Somme in the First World War, and again in the last war. May I also say that the 36th Ulster Division played a leading part in the Battle of the Somme, particularly in the most fearful part of the battle. A wreath laying ceremony is held each year in Northern Ireland to commemorate the anniversary of the battle. The Ministry of Defence were not approached through the different associations, nor was the embassy in Paris asking if this commemorating service should take place. Therefore, the last one, as the noble Lord knows, was in 1966, the 50th anniversary, and no application of this sort would seem to have been given.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, what reason can there be for not commemorating an outstanding event of this kind? Is the noble Viscount aware that this was one of the most sensational events in the First World War, and that many of us can recall it, and some of us have a personal interest because, like no doubt many other Members of your Lordships' House, some of our relatives were not only wounded but fatally wounded in that event? We have very vivid recollections of such events. Surely it is occasionally desirable to remind the public of some of the events

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of this character. It may not stir up their patriotic instincts, but it may have the effect of reminding people of the gallantry of thousands of our men, and particularly the young element of that time, and the political implications that developed as a result of that event.
Viscount Long: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, for his question, and I sympathise with what lies behind it. It is important to remember those who were killed in the Battle of the Somme, a disasrous battle, and those who were killed in both world wars. Might I say to the noble Lord, Lord Monson, and to your Lordships, that of course many from all regiments in the United Kingdom and indeed the Commonwealth were killed, not only the brave men of Ulster but brave men throughout the United Kingdom as a whole.
Viscount Simon: My Lords, to keep the record straight, would the noble Viscount agree that there were also a very large number of people from what is now the Republic of Ireland who were killed in the Battle of the Somme fighting on our side?
Viscount Long: I quite agree with the noble Viscount, my Lords; there were.
Lord Leatherland: My Lords, may I ask the Minister to appreciate that some of us who were on the Somme in 1916 do not want to be reminded of it in any artificially glamorised way?
Viscount Long: My Lords, I am aware that many noble Lords fought in that disastrous battle. I am also aware that many noble Lords have not wanted to know much more about it, apart from the fact that they were lucky to get out of it, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, is alive to tell me how the battle went and that he is here to join us in your Lordships' Chamber.

The Death Grant
3.1 p.m.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they will announce an increase in the National Insurance death grant.
The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Young): My Lords, the Government are continuing their consideration of all aspects of the death grant and will make an announcement as soon as this is complete.
Baroness Macleod of Borve: My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I draw her attention to the fact that the death grant has not been increased since 1967, that during those years inflation
964
has gone up by 372·4 per cent., and that £30 is nowhere near enough to cover even a small part of the cost of a funeral, which at present day rates is £250 minimum?
Baroness Young: Yes, my Lords, the Government are aware of those facts and recognise the difficulties they can cause for certain people. The fact that the death grant has not been reviewed since 1967 indicates how difficult it is to balance the various pressures towards reform which have built up over the years against the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves.
The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the General Synod of the Church of England passed a Motion in 1978 calling on Her Majesty's Government to increase realistically the present death grant and to keep the matter under review? It was on the initiative of my own diocese that that Motion was passed. Have the Government in mind the desirability of making it possible for certain people to have the cost of the most simple of funerals by virtue of receiving a realistic death grant?
Baroness Young: My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for the point he made about the proposals of the Church and I would reassure him that, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has indicated, this matter is still under discussion. There are no definite proposals at present, because there are of course various ways, if it were regarded as right, of providing selective help which would not involve means testing as it is usually understood. All the different propositions are still under consideration but no decision has yet been taken.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: My Lords, is the Minister aware that many elderly people are suffering acute anxiety over the problem of funeral costs? The approach of these old people is the need to be decently buried, and one can understand that. Many of them, because of their age, have fully paid up policies but could not afford, even if it were possible, to reinsure. However, the main question I wish to ask the noble Baroness, and of course it affects other people, is about the position of people receiving social security benefits, especially supplementary benefit. Do they get help if a death occurs in the family? This is an important issue on which I would be obliged to receive some information from the noble Baroness.
Baroness Young: Yes, my Lords; people whose resources, with or without the death grant, are insufficient to meet funeral costs can apply for help by way of supplementary benefit. The noble Lord may like to know that out of about 600,000 deaths each year, during 1979 we believe that between 4,000 and 7,000 such payments were made.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: I thank the noble Baroness for that reply, my Lords, because it will give a deal of comfort to a large number of people. Bearing in mind the urgency of the matter raised in the main Question, may I ask the noble Baroness to urge on the Government the necessity of speeding up a decision on this issue?
Lord Sudeley: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she has any figures of the rate of death grant in other European countries, especially in the Common Market, so that we may compare them with the rates of death grant in this country?
Baroness Young: I do not have those figures with me, my Lords.

Yarmouth (Isle of Wight) Pier Bill
3.5 p.m.
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

Whitehaven Harbour Bill
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, raised some points about the Bill on Second Reading. I wish to assure him that they were gone into with great care by the Unopposed Bill Committee and I shall be writing to him. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

County of Avon Bill [H.L.]
  Cumbria Bill [H.L.]

    Derbyshire Bill [H.L.]
    Lord Aberdare: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
    Moved, That those provisions in the Bills against which no petition has been presented, or if presented has been withdrawn in whole or in part, or which become unopposed by reason of any of the provisions of Standing Order No. 113 be committed to a Select Committee and that the quorum of the Select Committee be two.—(Lord Aberdare.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

London Docklands Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) (Amendment) Order 1981
3.7 p.m.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin) rose to move, That Private Business Standing Order No. 216 (Hybrid Instruments) be dispensed with in relation to any further proceedings on the order.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House might find it helpful if I were briefly to sketch in the background to the Motion. As the House knows, the original order designating the urban development area
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and setting up the London Docklands Development Corporation was laid last November. It was declared hybrid, petitioned against and 10 of the petitions were referred to a Select Committee of this House. The Select Committee, under the chairmanship of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cross of Chelsea, sat for 50 days.
The committee reported on 5th June and recommended that the principle of an urban development area and an urban development corporation should be accepted for London docklands and that the Royal Mint site should be excluded from the UDA. The committee also commented that, as the original order was not open to amendment, the House could proceed in either of two ways: it could refuse to affirm the order and ask the Secretary of State to lay an amended order incorporating any changes proposed, or alternatively it could affirm the present order after having exacted an undertaking from the Secretary of State that he would, as soon as possible, lay an amending order to exclude areas which the present order includes.
Today is not the time to debate the Select Committee's report; we shall have ample opportunity to do that next week when the main order is presented for approval. I should, however, say now that the Government accept the committee's recommendations in full and we aim to put them into effect as quickly as possible. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment therefore laid an order on 18th June, the effect of which, if approved by the House, will be to amend the original order so as to remove the Royal Mint site from the proposed urban development area in line with the Select Committee's recommendation.
This amending order has been declared hybrid by the Chairman of Committees. In the normal course of events a 14-day period for petitioning and the other procedures relating to hybrid instruments would now ensue. But in view of the fact that the intention of the amending order is to carry out the recommendations of the Select Committee, made after an exhaustive inquiry into the matter, we are submitting that it would be inappropriate for Standing Order 216 to apply to this order. If the House agrees, the effect of suspending Standing Order 216 in this case will be to allow the amending order to be debated as soon as it has been before the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. The Government's intention is to arrange for the original designation order and the amending order to be debated together on Wednesday of next week. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That Private Business Standing Order No. 216 (Hybrid Instruments) be dispensed with in relation to any further proceedings on the order.—(Lord Bellwin.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Licensing (Alcohol Education and Research) Bill
The Earl of Kinnoull: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee.

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Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Atomic Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
3.11 p.m.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The principal intention of this Bill is to enable the disposal of shares in Amersham International Limited, known until its recent change of name as the Radiochemical Centre Limited. This is a company which has a worldwide reputation as a leading supplier of radioisotopes for industry, medicine and research. The Bill also clarifies the present powers of the Government to dispose of shares held in companies operating in the field of atomic energy in general, and clarifies the present powers of the Atomic Energy Authority to dispose of shares in any company. I shall explain later why the Bill has done this.
I should like to begin by explaining the background and history of Amersham International Limited. The beginnings of the enterprise go as far back as 1940, when the British Government invited a small company, called Thorium Limited, to undertake the refining of radium and radium-based luminous paint for use in compasses and other aircraft instruments. In 1954 the centre became part of the newly- created United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, whose primary purpose is to carry out research and development into atomic energy. Although the company has undoubtedly benefited from the increase in general scientific knowledge as a result of research into atomic energy, I ought to emphasise that Amersham International's products—namely, radioactive substances for use in medicine, industry and research—are not, I repeat, not, relevant to the nuclear power programme.
The story now moves on to 1971, when the relevant part of the Atomic Energy Authority's business was transferred by the Atomic Energy Authority Act 1971 to a wholly-owned subsidiary company set up under the Companies Acts and known as the Radiochemical Centre Limited. That was done to encourage proper commercial and financial disciplines, and it was also envisaged that there might be a minority private shareholding in the future. Since the organisation was reconstituted as a limited liability company, it has developed into a very successful worldwide business, employing some 2,000 people, and its future is even brighter with the recent fall in sterling. It manufactures radioactive drugs and sources for industrial use. From the modest beginnings of a house in Amersham, the development has grown to such an extent that the name of Amersham is synonymous in many parts of the world with the production of radioactive substances.
The present proposal to sell shares in Amersham International is a result of the Government's policy to introduce private capital into public sector companies
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where this is a feasible proposition. As I mentioned earlier, the idea of introducing private capital into the company is not new. When the centre was constituted as a limited company in 1971, the then Conservative Government said that they favoured eventual private participation in the company. That would also appear to have been the view in 1970 of the Labour Administration, who introduced a Bill similar to that which became the 1971 Act and which lapsed with the General Election in 1970. At the time of the 1971 Act the intention was that the Government and the authority would retain a majority shareholding between them, and this was provided for in the Act. No sale of shares has in fact been made. What we are now proposing is simply an extension of this philosophy; namely, to enable a majority, or all, of the shares to be sold.
I should like to say a few words in order to explain the main purpose of the Bill. As I have said, when the company was set up in 1971, it was then envisaged that a minority shareholding would be sold off at some time in the future. As a result, the Act provided for a majority of the company's voting shares to be retained in the public sector. Although the Government have made no decision on the number of shares to be sold, they wish to have the option of selling more than half. The Bill therefore removes the explicit provision in Section 11(3) of the 1971 Act, which requires that the Atomic Energy Authority and the Secretary of State between them should hold at least 50 per cent. of the voting shares.
Until recently, it was thought that, subject to that provision in the 1971 Act, the Secretary of State or the authority could dispose of any shares held by them. However, the Government have recently been advised that these general powers are constrained by the duties of the Secretary of State and the powers of the authority. This stems from the way in which atomic energy is defined in Section 8(1) of the Atomic Energy Authority Act 1954, which originally set up the Atomic Energy Authority. As I said earlier, Amersham's products are not relevant to the nuclear power programme, but the definition of atomic energy in the 1954 Act covers matters much wider than the nuclear power programme, and, in a technical legal sense, Amersham's activities come within that definition.
For those technical reasons, it is possible that the disposal of any of the shares held by the Atomic Energy Authority might be challenged as being inconsistent with the existing powers or duties. It is obviously necessary to clarify the general powers of disposal in this case. As these possible restrictions on the general powers of disposal are really an accident of earlier legislation, it seems wise to take the opportunity to clarify the position for the other two companies in which the authority holds shares—namely, British Nuclear Fuels Limited and the National Nuclear Corporation Limited and indeed for any shares in any other company that the Government or the authority may acquire in the future. The Bill therefore ensures that the authority has powers to sell any shares owned by it, and that the Secretary of State has powers to sell any shares held by him in companies operating in the atomic field. The purpose of this is quite simply to return the general situation to what, until recently, it was always thought to be.

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The specific restriction on the disposal of more than half the voting shares in British Nuclear Fuels Limited, which was imposed by Section 11(3) of the 1971 Act, has been retained by the present Bill. While the Government wish to maintain the option, which was previously thought to exist, of selling a minority shareholding in British Nuclear Fuels, they have at present no plans to do so. Similarly, the option of selling shares in the National Nuclear Corporation is being kept open, although again there are no such plans at present. Therefore, apart from the case of shares in Amersham International, where the restriction on the sale of more than half the shares is lifted by this Bill, the Government's intention is purely that of clarification.
Although the Bill allows 100 per cent. of the shares to be sold, the Government have not yet made a decision on the precise proportion of shares to be sold, nor on the method of disposal. The Government are not thinking in terms of a disposal before next year at the earliest. I appreciate that some employees may be uncertain and anxious about the disposal, and I should like to reassure them that their worries are unnecessary. The Government recognise that it is the dedication and ability of the company's employees that have secured its success, and they have every wish to see Amersham International prosper in the future. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy made this quite clear during the Bill's Third Reading in another place, when he said:
"In deciding precisely how the disposal will be made and the manner and number in which shares will be sold, the Government have every desire to see the company prosper. We would not agree to plans which would endanger the future of the company or the livelihood of those who work in it".—[Official Report, Commons, 20/5/81; col. 382.]
In conclusion, I would say that I believe that Amersham International's record of success demonstrates that it is perfectly capable of standing up for itself in tough, international markets. I believe that the Bill will benefit the country, Amersham International, and its staff. The Government see no benefit, either to the nation or to the company, in continuing to own all the company's shares. They wish to give the company the means and encouragement to develop in an atmosphere of the fullest commercial freedom and to allow it to build on its past success. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Skelmersdale.)
3.20 p.m.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for explaining this Bill to the House. He has done this most competently, if I may say so, as one would expect; but I am sorry that one of the noble Lord's first Bills from the Government Front Bench should be a Bill for which there seems to be little need—except, perhaps, for display as a trophy in some Tory Valhalla, where the household gods believe that all private enterprise is wondrous and every state-owned company is to be condemned.
As the noble Lord has said, the Bill will enable the sale of up to 100 per cent. of the shares in the Radio-chemical Centre Limited—a company owned by the
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AEA. The centre, which employs 2,000 people and is a world leader in its field, has received the Queen's Award four times for exports during the last few years. Turnover has risen in 10 years; and profits during this period have been £26 million, with a high average return on capital investment. The board consider, I understand, that the Government should retain some holding; and the staff of TRC believe that the Government should retain a controlling interest. In short, there does not seem to be any demand from management or the workforce for this change. Indeed, the staff, to whom the noble Lord paid tribute, are worried about their future under a new régime, and they have asked the Government for an undertaking not to sell more than 49 per cent. of the shares. Will the Government assure the House that the company will not be sold off willy-nilly to the highest bidder, and that preference will be given to a British controlling company?
The Bill also repeals the provision that shares should not be sold to mere investors with no interest or expertise in this field. I accept that the Secretary of State can stop a sale if this is not considered to be in the national interest. But how is that to be determined? The centre's success has been partly due to its close association with the AEA, and the fusion of scientific talent and research associated with the Atomic Energy Authority. What benefit will there be in severing these links? Will the Government consider allowing the AEA to continue to hold, say, 25 per cent. of the shares, so that these links are maintained? This would prevent TRC from being taken over by some multinational conglomerate with little direct interest in this field. What is to be the position of patents if the centre is to be taken over by a foreign company? Perhaps the noble Lord will tell the House when he comes to reply.
Finally, there is no provision in the Bill for a Government decision on disposal to be ratified by Parliament. This Bill will allow privatisation without any parliamentary accountability. As I have said, we on this side of the House can see no need for the Bill. TRC is to be sacrificed for doctrinaire reasons as the victim of Tory dogma and because this Government cannot bear to think of any successful enterprise being publicly owned.
3.24 p.m.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, I thought I detected a considerable lack of enthusiasm indeed in the almost apologetic although competent manner in which the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, presented this little Bill to your Lordships on behalf of the Government. This is understandable in view of the extraordinary vagueness of the scope of this Bill. It seems to me, as the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has indicated, basically an unnecessary Bill.
The Liberal Party has always endeavoured to support measures to dispense with Government ownership of shares in enterprises, and to introduce private capital; but a Bill which is headed "Atomic Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions)", requires a more cautious approach to be adopted. The title immediately raises prima facie questions as to safety and control of atomic energy in its widest sense, particularly having regard to the wide definition of "atomic energy" in Clause 4 of the Bill. In view of the general vagueness of the scope

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of the Bill and the manner in which it has been presented by the Government to your Lordships, it may be that this Bill is in danger of turning into a kind of Red Riding Hood Bill, and that perhaps it is really a little wolf in sheep's clothing.
In the field of atomic energy it is a platitude to say that general safety standards and standards of control assume paramount importance. I of course am aware that much of the business of the Amersham Company is concerned with radioactive isotopes of great value to the medical profession. Arising out of that—and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has emphasised how successful this company has been—it is not clear to me, however, whether, if the shares of this Amersham company are sold, these important isotopes, capable of being of such use for medical purposes, would be as readily available as they are now to United Kingdom medical institutions. There seems to me, therefore, an inherent commercial danger here, particularly if all the shares are allowed to go into the hands of a foreign company.
As the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, mentioned, there may be patents involved in the assets of the Amersham company. Your Lordships do not know who are the present licensees, if any, of these patents. If there are licensees, is there any obligation on the company at present to supply or to disclose to the licensees know-how relating to any form of atomic energy as defined in the Bill? It is common form to have disclosure of know-how in licence agreements under patents. If so, what are the sources from which the Amersham company now derive their know-how in the field of atomic energy? I have no information about this; and it would appear that in general your Lordships have no information about this important matter. Immediately, doubts must be raised—if, for example, information and know-how on atomic energy is to be supplied by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority—whether adequate safeguards, which only the Government can provide, have been included in this Bill. We really should have more information about the present commercial activities of the Amersham company if the Atomic Energy Authority and the Secretary of State are to dispose of all the shares.
As the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has indicated, what is clear is that this Amersham company is a highly successful company commercially and technologically. It has been successful over a large number of years. ft has competed successfully against intense foreign competition; and this success is due almost entirely to the splendid staff of that company. There are over 2,000 on this staff; and the success of the company is entirely due to very good management, the outstanding ingenuity and the skills of that staff. Large profits have been made, and these have been ploughed back regularly into the company so that very largely public money has not been used to subsidise the efforts of this splendid company.
If there is to be a disposal of shares, clearly a significant proportion of these shares—say, of the order of 20 per cent.—should be made available to the staff. But there is no indication in the Bill that the staff will be considered in any way if the shares of this
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Amersham company are to be disposed of. I submit that this gives the Government a splendid opportunity to put into practice schemes for employee participation on a substantial scale as a recognition, at least, of the splendid work that this staff has undertaken.
As I have said, I submit that the Atomic Energy Authority should, for a number of technical reasons, retain a substantial interest in Amersham International. It has been said in the other place that that kind of action would diminish the value of the shares, but in my view, depending on the source from which the company receives that technical information, if the Atomic Energy Authority were to retain some of the shares, such action might enhance the value of the shares and the assets to be disposed of. We on these Benches submit that no single company should acquire the remainder of the shares. Ownership of the shares should be diversified as widely as possible.
So far I have spoken to the Bill only as it refers to Amersham International. I should now like to turn briefly to the other company mentioned in the Bill, British Nuclear Fuels Limited. In the case of that company it is intended that the Atomic Energy Authority and the Secretary of State should continue to hold shares. This is understandable because that company is concerned, for example, with processing nuclear products, and therefore it is obvious that some direct control by the Secretary of State and the Atomic Energy Authority is necessary for safety reasons. It would appear therefore that it is largely for safety reasons that the Government do not propose to sell off the majority of the shares in British Nuclear Fuels. However, the Government are not proposing to retain the shares in Amersham International, and as at present advised it is not clear to me what is the technical dividing line between the activities of British Nuclear Fuels and Amersham International which justifies such different treatment in regard to the disposal of the shares. Perhaps the noble Lord the Minister will be able to clarify this point for me.
I have referred to the vagaries of the scope of this Bill and it seems to me that what is in the national interests should be defined somehow. There are some extraordinary clauses in the Bill. May I refer your Lordships to Clause 1(2), which states:
"The power of the Authority to dispose of shares shall, subject to the following provisions of this section, be exercisable"—
now comes the extraordinary passage:
"(a) whether or not the disposal is consistent with the exercise and performance of their functions.".
This seems to be very ambiguous, but it may mean that the Secretary of State can dispose of these shares despite, and irrespective of, the functions of the authority.
Clause 1(3) states:
"The power of the Secretary of State to dispose of shares shall, subject to the following provisions of this section, be exercisable—
(a) whether or not the disposal is consistent with promoting or controlling the development of atomic energy.".
It seems to me that this is too wide a clause to include in a Bill of this kind dealing with atomic energy, but these matters will be dealt with later, at the Committee stage. In the other place my party, the Liberal Party, voted against the Bill at the Second and Third Readings.

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Obviously we cannot go as far as that in your Lordships' House, but I have real doubts whether it is really necessary for this Bill to go forward at all, or at least not without substantial amendment.
3.35 p.m.
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords, there was only one sentence in Lord Strabolgi's speech to which I took exception, although I also took exception to an implication in the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, very promptly put a point of view, and that is part and parcel of his job. He put his point of view very well. He explained the importance of various sections of the authority and the way in which it ought to be preserved because of the vital nature of the functions which it carries out. But he skimmed over another aspect, when he said that the national interest has to be left in the hands of the Secretary of State and that one did not know what that interest was.
I took exception to those remarks by the noble Lord, and to a lesser extent to those made by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, when he spoke about not interfering with the efficiency of the Atomic Energy Authority. What better person than the Secretary of State to decide what is in the national interest? Is the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, saying that we in this country have reached a situation where, because there happens to be a party difference over the general principle of whether the authority should be solely or partly owned by the country, that that would interfere with the impartiality and the acumen of the Secretary of State of the day? The moment we allow that to be acceptable as a basis then we can do nothing. I know of no occasion when this side of your Lordships' House questioned the impartiality or ability of the Secretary of State when the party opposite were doing things which, on principle, we thought were wrong but which provided for the Secretary of State to have the final say. The Secretary of State has more knowledge than anybody else and has access to more advice than anybody else in making such a decision.
In a matter such as this, one cannot be precise. The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, being an expert in patent law, knows that in this particular field one cannot anticipate what might happen. One cannot anticipate who will bid for the shares. One cannot anticipate the qualifications of the people who may bid for the shares, when it comes to knowing anything about the work that has to be done and the atomic energy matters which they would have to deal with. When one has the safeguard of involving the Secretary of State—and one should remember that it may not be the present Secretary of State concerned, but a Secretary of State from the other party—then I for one have enough confidence (although certain things might happen which could undermine my confidence) in the people from either party who are likely to hold the high office of Secretary of State, to know that they would not allow shibboleths of party belief to interfere in what, with all the special knowledge they have, they believe to be in the nation's interests.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, skimmed over that and rather doubted the ability of the Secretary of State to do an impartial job. On a matter such as this one either has to do nothing and allow matters to deter-
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iorate, if one's belief is that matters would deteriorate if one altered the structure of ownership, or one has to place one's trust in somebody to know what is happening on a day-to-day basis, what is likely to be in the nation's interest, and to act accordingly.
I cannot anticipate a Secretary of State, from either side of your Lordships' House, failing to veto as shareholders undesirable people from another part of the world. I cannot envisage a Secretary of State from either side of your Lordships' House who, seeing that the people who were bidding for the shares were doing so to accumulate them for speculative reasons and did not understand the business, would allow their purchase of the shares to go forward. I believe that from the choices we are likely to have as to who is to exercise this vital power, the one proposed is that one would wish to have. It has worked in the past and I know of no alternative to it.
I am rather sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, skimmed over this and made the implication that he did. I can think of no safer way of doing the right thing than letting the ultimate power be in the hands of the Secretary of State, with all of his colleagues in the Government to share and to come to some conclusions to see that we are doing the right thing.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, the noble Lord has been so kind to me that I hesitate to interrupt; but has he thought of the second-stage position, as it were, where the Secretary of State has approved the sale to firm X; and firm X now is in complete control and then sells it to Y? If he is satisfied about the safeguards initially, is he satisfied at the transfer all along the line?
Lord Harmar-Nicholls: My Lords, I am saying that nobody is more likely than the Secretary of State, with his special knowledge and access to knowledge, to know whether firm X is a bona fide buyer which will remain or whether it is merely in transit in order to make a quick profit. No one can ascertain that more quickly than the Secretary of State. That safeguard is fundamental. If it is on the question of principle where there may be differences of view as to the hiving-off and if one forgoes that, then the safeguard of the Secretary of State being there is one likely to prevent us getting into the kind of trouble that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, envisaged or even that which the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, mentioned. I intervened because I thought that a rather dangerous sentence for the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, to put in his speech, and the rest of it did not justify having to deviate from the established practice in looking after the nation's interests.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to explain that all that I was asking was how difficult it was to define the "national interest". I take the point of the noble Lord and we are glad to have him here from Europe. Having served in Government, I have as much respect as he has for the Secretaries of State. All I was asking is how this can be defined. It may be that the Secretary of State for Energy may not want it. He may be overruled by a more powerful department—say, the Foreign Office—who might want to have this sale

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made for diplomatic reasons. I take the point that the noble Lord has made, but these are some of the difficulties that may arise.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, regards me as one who provides trophies to hang on the wall in some Conservative Valhalla. Can I push the argument to him? Why on earth does he think we have a public sector in this country? I believe that there are only three reasons, one of which the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, will not appreciate. These are for companies which are concerned with defence or where it is in the national interest that they should be so, or where the Government, in some exceptional circumstances, should provide a safety net. Rolls-Royce is an obvious example of this, for which we are frequently criticised. Once any of these is no longer required, it is the Government's philosophy—and I cannot state it more clearly—that there is no earthly reason for keeping any firm in the public sector.
I have described the reason for keeping Amersham International Limited in the public sector as a carryover, an historical accident. That is what it is. The noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, asked me the difference between BNFL and Amersham international. The answer is that they are in quite different categories. The one is an historical accident carried over from the formation of the Atomic Energy Authority and originally, as I said in my opening speech, it came into the defence category where it was making luminous paints for aircraft instrument dials. As regards British Nuclear Fuels, it will, as far as I am concerned, for all time for obvious reasons remain in the national interest to keep it principally in the public sector. This the Government will continue to do.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, asked about the position of the staff. The staff representatives met my honourable friend Mr. Lamont, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, on two occasions and the management on, I think, four occasions. I, too, have been to see the management of this company. Both the staff and the management have expressed anxiety that the integrity and independence of the company should be safeguarded. This was the point the noble Lord drew attention to. They would like the Atomic Energy Authority to retain 25 per cent. of the shareholding and the employees to be allowed to acquire a shareholding in the region of 10 per cent., with an undertaking that the company would not be sold to either a single foreign or a single British buyer. While not closing off any of the options for sale, my honourable friend has assured them that the Government will not sell shares in such a way as to endanger the future of the company. That would be a ludicrous thing to do. It would be too silly for words.
Although the Bill enables the sale of up to 100 per cent. of the shares, we have not decided how many will be sold or who the purchasers will be. We will want to consider all the options carefully to ensure that the disposal is in the interests of Amersham International Limited as well as in the national interest. In deciding on the method and extent of the sale, we will have the future of the company very much in mind and would never agree to plans which would jeopardise the future
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of the company or its workforce. My honourable friend has undertaken to consult with the staff before any major decisions are made.
On the question of a corporate buyer, if the Government were to go down this route, they would want to be sure that the sale had industrial logic and that company was not just going to be bought and then broken up. The important criterion would be that the purchaser should be responsible and likely to enhance the company's prosperity. On the employees' shareholding, the Government will consider various possibilities and this will depend in part on the advice of the financial advisers which will be needed for the proposed sale. It must be recognised that if the Government decide to sell shares to a corporate buyer, introducing such a scheme would present considerable problems and might not be feasible. We shall have to be guided by the advice given at the time.
The noble Lords, Lord Strabolgi and Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, talked about patents. Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, having been instrumental in dealing with the Patents Bill two years ago, knows more about this subject than I do. The thing is that Amersham International is already a Companies Act company and therefore any patents in the future would carry on in the same way as at present.
Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene but I asked a difficult question and I was not expecting the noble Lord to reply at the present time.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. The noble Lord then went into what are basically Committee points on various words in the Bill. To save time, may I recommend him to look at the two earlier Acts to which I referred—the 1954 Act (which set up the Atomic Energy Authority) and 1971 Act—because, when we get to the Committee stage on this Bill, we shall be referring a lot to those Acts, and making the position of those Acts clearer. We have used the same words as in those Acts.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, asked me about the safeguards, and as, I understand it, there is no reason to believe that a disposal of Amersham International Limited would result in the Atomic Energy Authority's secret information becoming divulged to others capable of acting against the public interest. This would be one of the matters that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would recognise as being very firmly in the public interest. I am very grateful for the words of my noble friend, who has helped me out of a considerable hole and made a far better speech than I have.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Education Bill
3.51 p.m.
Baroness Young: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill now be read a second time. It gives me particular pleasure to move the Second Reading of this Education Bill because I am acutely aware of the interest and knowledge many of your Lordships have in those

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members of our society who are in any way handicapped. This was demonstrated during the debate we had in January on the International Year of Disabled People. Your Lordships have long awaited this Bill on the education of children with special educational needs and I am glad that at last it is before this House. We look forward this afternoon especially to hearing from the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. I hope we shall hear from her on many occasions.
Before turning to the detailed provisions of the Bill, I should like to make a few general points. I think it is important that your Lordships appreciate at the outset that this is not a Bill which deals solely with the educational problems of disabled children. Nor indeed is it a measure that is confined to what we have traditionally termed handicapped children. It is a Bill which tackles the problems of perhaps some 20 per cent. of the school population who have at some time in their school lives what we have termed a "special educational need".
The Bill is based on the recommendations made in the Warnock Report for a reform of the statutory framework governing the provision of special education in a way that would help break down artificial barriers between handicapped and non-handicapped pupils. It is therefore right to acknowledge that the philosophy behind this Bill has its origin in the Warnock Report and I should like to place on record our thanks to Mrs. Mary Warnock and her Committee for their work.
The Bill now before your Lordships lays the foundation for the further development of special education along lines recommended by the Warnock Committee. It proposes a radical change in existing arrangements by replacing the present system of ascertainment based on medical examination and assignment to a category of handicap with a new concept of a group of children with special educational needs within which a small percentage will require careful multi-professional assessment to reveal the totality of their special educational needs. Thus the Bill is not a measure which attempts to tinker with existing statute but one that starts afresh.
I should like to draw attention to two features in the proposed legislation which I trust will commend themselves to your Lordships. For the first time local education authorities are enabled to make provision for very young children. That is, babies and toddlers under the age of two. This is most important as I believe there can be no doubt that early help can be particularly beneficial for some handicapped children.
The second feature is the stress laid throughout the Bill on the involvement of parents in decisions made about the special educational provision for children with severe learning difficulties. Many of your Lordships will recall that during our discussions last year on what is now the 1980 Education Act, I promised that this Bill would do everything possible to strengthen the rights of parents of handicapped children. I believe that I can fairly claim that this has been achieved.
In bringing this Bill before you it would be wrong of me to pretend that it has been without criticism during its passage through another place. As you will know, the Bill there was the subject of an experimental Committee stage which allowed honourable
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Members on the Committee to call and question witnesses, including Mrs. Warnock and myself, before beginning detailed consideration of the Bill. It was mainly during these sessions and at the earlier Second Reading stage that there was a criticism about the lack of resources for special education.
In the hope that our debates will centre more on the provisions of the Bill and less on the general economic climate, I should like to make it clear that it is simply not true that there is no money available for special education. The Government's expenditure forecasts allow for broadly level funding for special schools over the next few years despite the fact that pupil numbers will fall by 10,000. This, coupled with a reappraisal of the deployment of existing resources which will be occasioned by this Bill, should enable local education authorities to make modest improvements in their special educational provision.
While I should have liked to announce that the Bill was to be accompanied by a massive injection of extra resources, it is not true to state that nothing can be done without extra money. I do not believe I could have stood at this Dispatch Box and told your Lordships, particularly during this International Year of the Disabled, that the Government were going to ignore the recommendations of Mrs. Warnock and leave the statutory framework unchanged. Much has already been done and will continue to be done to improve our system for special education and it is the Government's view that obsolescent law should be removed and replaced by this Bill so that further development can take place in line with the availability of existing and future resources.
I have no doubt that the measures proposed in the Bill are soundly based and that the changes proposed will have a considerable effect. One important by-product of the Bill will be in the way that it forces all of us to re-examine our attitudes towards the child with special educational needs and, ultimately I hope to change the attitudes of society as a whole towards the handicapped person.
I turn now to another issue limked with the question of resources; namely, teacher training. "Teacher training" is an umbrella term which covers many disparate types of training. Unfortunately, this means that discussions on teacher training can become very confused. There are basically three kinds of teacher training: initial training, specialised training for specific handicaps and in-service training. This latter term itself covers many different types of training. So far as initial teacher training is concerned, what I believe is required is a greater student awareness of the kinds of special educational needs likely to be encountered in the classroom. I am pleased to say that there has already been a response among colleges of education and universities to meet this need.
In-service training is equally important in increasing awareness among serving teachers, and there are already some courses specifically designed to help teachers recognise and meet special educational needs encountered in the classrooms of ordinary schools. But it is not just more courses that are necessary. There are other approaches. For example, I was impressed with the evidence given to the Commons Special

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Standing Committee by one headmistress when she said:
"…there is a need for the entire staff to have an occasional full day in-service training using local authority resources. That is one way of getting over the financial difficulties. To send one or two members of staff away for a term, even if the money is available, is not the answer to the problem".—[Official Report. Special Standing Committee on the Education Bill. Col. 169.]
Furthermore, I believe it is essential that we remember that the Bill does not create a new type of pupil. The children covered by this Bill exist now and are being taught now, mainly in ordinary schools, by a trained and qualified teaching profession. The Bill does not presage the wholesale movement of children from special schools into ordinary schools, and in this respect it is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. We are not therefore faced with a need to re-train the whole teaching profession overnight and the development of initial and in-service training must be viewed against this background.
I should like to turn now to one area which would require legislation but which is not covered in the Bill. The Government have acknowledged that it is not possible to extend any of the provisions in the Bill to the further education sector until the whole legal basis for the provision of further education has been reviewed and decisions taken on any necessary legislative reforms.
Your Lordships may be aware that a working party consisting of officials of my department, the Welsh Office and the local authority associations has now completed its initial review and their report was published last week. This report will now be the subject of widespread consultation and I hope noble Lords will not be inhibited in making their views known to my department. I understand that copies of the report are available in the Printed Paper Office.
While the further education sector is excluded from the Bill, I am encouraged by the ways in which colleges and universities are already beginning to respond positively to the needs of the handicapped student. Some universities and polytechnics have set up special committees for the handicapped and have appointed special student counsellors for the disabled to keep in touch with the students and their tutors to help solve their problems. Southampton and Sussex Universities have opened special residential units which are specially equipped and serviced for handicapped students. Additionally, I note that nearly 1,700 students at the Open University identify themselves as having a disability, which demonstrates how useful this approach to higher education can be for some handicapped students.
Not all children with special educational needs will be able to benefit from higher education and there will be some who move on to other provision once they leave school. I should like to place on record here the position over the provision of teachers to adult training centres. Noble Lords who have followed the debates in another place will have noted that my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary promised to introduce into this Bill an amendment to allow LEAs to provide teachers to training centres. I am happy to report to this House that we are now advised that such powers already exist under the
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National Health Service Act 1977 and the Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 1970. I shall therefore ensure that our post-legislative guidance to LEAs covers this point, as I am anxious that LEAs know of their powers in this respect.
At this point it would be wrong of me not to place on the record the co-operative spirit which has been a feature of discussions in another place. I take pleasure in being able to place before you a Bill which is supported on all sides. I feel sure that we can approach our consideration of the Bill in the same manner. This is not to say that we will not have our differences of opinion about detail, but the Government are ready to listen to the arguments and to see this House improve the Bill in any reasonable way.
I turn now to the detailed provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 contains the definition of "special educational needs". This definition was the subject of a long period of consideration both within my department and with colleagues in other departments. The essential feature of the definition is that it is based on the concept of a learning difficulty. It thus embraces what has been conveniently called Warnock's 1 in 6 of school children. Furthermore, no reference is made to the causal factors which give rise to learning difficulties. We can thus dispense with categorisation according to handicapping condition and concentrate on the individual child's special educational needs. The only exclusion from the definition is children whose sole problems derive from language difficulties. We have excluded them not because they do not have educational needs, which LEAs are already under a duty to meet, but because we wish to avoid the position arising whereby children from ethnic minorities feel themselves, however misguidedly, as being classified as handicapped because they have yet to gain a full understanding of the language of instruction.
Clause 2 of the Bill is largely concerned with placing duties on LEAs and governors of ordinary schools to ensure that the majority of pupils who have special educational needs and who are already in these schools have those needs acknowledged and catered for. LEAs are also required to keep the totality of their special educational provision under review.
Clause 2 also contains our statement of principle on the question of integration and association. We firmly believe that the largest possible number of children with special educational needs should be educated in ordinary schools. But this must be subject to certain safeguards and we must acknowledge that we are not talking here only of physically handicapped pupils but also of the deaf, the blind, the mentally handicapped and the emotionally disturbed children, all of whom have a variety and degree of learning difficulty. For some children because of their requirements for intensive care and supervision, or because of their emotional disturbance, it will not ever be realistic to think of integration into an ordinary school. Special schools will therefore have a continuing place in our education system, but where it is possible to integrate children the Government believes this should be the goal. The pace of integration will continue to be gradual but I have every hope that the provisions in this clause will give it added impetus, for in the longer term it is only through educating

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children together that society's attitudes towards the handicapped will be fundamentally changed.
Clause 3 of the Bill is essentially a re-expression of an existing power to allow LEAs to make special educational provision otherwise than at school. This power is required by LEAs to make arrangements for home tuition and to provide education for children in hospital. The clause has, I believe, been improved in another place by an amendment which brought parental consultation into Clause 3.
Clause 4 of the Bill is an important landmark because it is here that the legislation provides for the education of the 2 per cent. of children who under the present law would probably be ascertained as handicapped. The clause places LEAs under a duty to identify any child over the age of two for whom they believe they should determine the special educational provision to be made to meet the child's special educational needs.
Having once identified these children, Clause 5 sets out the procedures for the commencement of the assessment. Most importantly, Clause 5 lays down how LEAs must go about consulting the child's parents before commencing formal assessment. LEAs are required at the outset to give parents the name of an officer they can contact for further information. The Clause is linked to Part I of Schedule 1 to the Bill, which contains the Secretary of State's power to make regulations governing the conduct of such assessments and your Lordships will note here that the assessments will have to include as a minimum, medical, psychological and educational advice. Here, then, is the multi-professional assessment which was rightly regarded by the Warnock Committee as essential for the discovery of a child's individual special educational needs.
As I mentioned earlier, the Bill gives LEAs for the first time powers in respect of babies and toddlers. Clause 6 therefore empowers LEAs to assess the needs of a child aged under two, providing they have the parents' consent, and places them under a duty to make such an assessment upon parental request. LEAs are, however, given a degree of flexibility in the way they approach this task because of the age of the child covered by the clause.
In respect of a child over the age of two, once assessment has been made the LEA must, if it considers it necessary to determine the special educational provision to be made to meet the needs of a child as revealed by that assessment, make and maintain a written statement of those needs and the provision to be made. These requirements are contained in Clause 7 of the Bill and your Lordships will wish to note that the parents are again to be involved before the LEA proceeds to make the special educational arrangements specified in the statement.
Once the statement has been made LEAs are obliged to provide the parents with the name of a person from whom they may obtain information and advice about their child's special educational needs. This provision in the Bill for a "named person" resulted from an amendment in another place which was put forward, with some Government help in drafting, by members of the All Party Disablement Group. The provision is carefully drafted so as to allow LEAs maximum flexibility in making imaginative appointments. There
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is no restriction on whom the authority chooses to assign to the role of named person.
I pause now to remind the House of the debates we had during our consideration of the choice of school arrangements now embodied in the 1980 Education Act. Your Lordships will recall that there were considerable pressures on the Government to introduce similar arrangements for the parents of handicapped pupils. As a result, I made a statement to your Lordships on 3rd March last year that this Bill would contain, so far as was practicable, parental rights of appeal over special educational provision akin to those given to other parents. I trust the House will note that we have honoured this commitment; and Clause 8 of the Bill allows parents who are dissatisfied with the provision as set out in the statement to appeal to the local appeal committees which will be established under the provisions of the 1980 Act. However, in considering appeals from the parents of children who are the subject of statements, the appeal committee's decision will not be binding.
I must acknowledge that there has been some criticism—I believe misplaced—of this modification of the appeal committee's powers. I say "misplaced" because we have to acknowledge that the circumstances here will be completely different. We must all recognise that there will be real differences in the circumstances when the appeal is about the provision to be made for a child who is the subject of a statement. When a local education authority make a statement under this Bill, they are placing themselves under a particular responsibility towards the individual child. They are deciding that it is appropriate for the authority to decide on the provision to be made for the child, and they are placing a duty on themselves to make that provision. That responsibility is not one which can be assumed by an appeal committee.
Furthermore, the considerations in these appeals will be different from those in the normal run of appeals under the 1980 Act. In those cases the question to be resolved will be the choice of school on grounds of parental preference. For children who are the subject of statements, however, the question is more likely to be how well the school or other provision proposed will match the needs of the child.
The appeal committee may need to look in detail at the assessment of the child's needs, and to consider and question the professional judgments of the multidisciplinary team involved in the assessment. Nevertheless, an appeal committee may have legitimate doubts about what the LEA are proposing to do for an individual child, and they therefore have the power to refer the matter back to the LEA for reconsideration. Clause 8 requires the LEA to reconsider such cases and if, after this process has been completed—and it may well be necessary for the LEA to undertake a fresh assessment—the parents remain dissatisfied, then they are given a specific right of appeal to the Secretary of State. This is a right which is not enjoyed by parents of other children.
Needless to say, I have every hope that the arrangements in the Bill for the involvement of parents throughout the assessment procedures will make recourse to an appeal committee a very rare occurrence. Parents are given every opportunity to become involved in the procedures. I am sure that wise counselling of the

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parents, by the professionals concerned with the assessment of an individual child, should ensure that they have understood the advice being given to the LEA about their child's special educational needs. Indeed, if the parents have recourse to an appeal committee, it is likely to be indicative of a failure somewhere along the line, either in explaining to the parents the problems faced by their child and the best way of dealing with them, or in convincing parents who hold views firmly opposed to those of the LEA.
Clause 9 of the Bill contains provisions to allow parents to ask LEAs for an assessment or reassessment of their child's special educational needs. Parents will thus be able to trigger the assessment procedures in cases where they are worried about their child's development.
Clause 10 is a new clause, which was added to the Bill in another place. It places health authorities under a duty to notify a child's parents and the education authority if they have reason to believe that a child aged under five has, or is likely to have, special educational needs. The duty embraces very young babies up to children of compulsory school age, and will clearly assist LEAs in the early identification of children with special educational needs.
The procedures for the Secretary of State's approval of maintained and non-maintained special schools and independent schools wishing to cater for children with statements are contained in Clauses 11, 12 and 13. I mention two points. The Secretary of State is given powers for the first time to make regulations as to his requirements for the conduct of the independent sector, in so far as it provides special educational provision. Secondly, the Government have given a firm undertaking that non-maintained special schools will be required to have governing bodies including parent and teacher representatives, as a condition of their approval by the Secretary of State.
By virtue of Clause 14, the Bill removes an anomaly whereby the law presently allows LEAs to close special schools without reference to the Secretary of State or without notifying parents. In future, parents and other interested parties will have to be notified of intended school closures and will have the opportunity of raising objections before the Secretary of State approves or rejects a closure proposal. Special schools closures will thus be brought into line with other maintained schools.
Clauses 15 and 16 bring the school attendance procedures, in respect of children who are the subject of statements, into line with the provisions of the 1980 Act; and the remainder of the Bill is largely concerned with technical points and transitional provisions for those children currently ascertained as handicapped or attending special schools.
This, then, is the broad scope of the proposed legislation. I am conscious of the technical nature of some of the Bill's provisions and if I, or any of my officials, can help your Lordships come to grips with the complexities of the legislation, we are only too willing to help either inside or outside this Chamber. As I said earlier, I hope that we can all work together to place on the statute book a piece of legislation which will serve the best interests of children with special educational
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needs for many years to come. I firmly believe that, with your Lordships' help, 1981 will be recognised as the year when the best of good practice was enshrined in legislation, and what better way of marking this the International Year of Disabled People? My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Baroness Young).
4.14 p.m.
Baroness David: My Lords, may I say that we, too, are very much looking forward to the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. We all know of the great experience that she has in this field. We are, of course, grateful to the Minister for her very clear exposition of the Bill and for news of certain welcome developments in a number of areas; which, indeed, the fact of the Bill coming into being may have encouraged. We are grateful, too, that the Government have brought forward a Bill based on some of the recommendations of the Warnock Report, and that that report has not been put on the shelf beside various other reports of Royal Commissions—Lord Rothschild's on Gambling, Professor Williams' on Obscenity and Lord McGregor's on the Press. We are glad that it has not suffered that fate, or the fate of about 50 reports commissioned by the DES, which, according to an Answer to my honourable friend Mr. Frank Field in another place, have not even been debated in the House.
We can be grateful that the Government have shown a little flexibility in Committee and at Report stage in another place, and that a few improvements have been made to a Bill that has been described as merely cosmetic, a fraud and giving little evidence of any Government intention vigorously to promote any serious advances in special education. I hope that we can improve the Bill still further in this House.
I want to move at once to what I look upon as the crucial issue, crucial to those with special educational needs and to their parents—the issue of integration. This is of major interest and concern and the only parts of the Bill that deal with it—in a Bill of 21 clauses and four schedules—are two subsections of Clause 2. One of those two subsections that deal with integration gives a total let-out to a local authority that does not want to be bothered. It will be only too easy to make up excuses, and say that having handicapped children in a school is not compatible with the provision of efficient education for the children with whom they will be educated. This discriminates very positively against children with special educational needs, as also does Clause 2(3)(c) where, if educating a child in an ordinary school is incompatible with the efficient use of resources, an LEA can opt out. This clause of the Bill will need clarification and strengthening in Committee.
I should have thought that the benefits of integration, whether in the mildest form of locational integration, when special education takes place on the site of a normal school, or in the form of social integration, when the children share facilities in some activities—maybe eating or playing together—or in the fullest form of integration, when handicapped children join in the normal curriculum on a full or part-time basis, ought

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to have received much more attention in the Bill.
Authorities are not even having a duty put upon them to produce plans for action over a number of years, which I should have thought would be the minimum requirement. The reason is not hard to guess. Integration must cost money, both in physical terms—ramps, lifts, lavatories and so on—and, more importantly, in trained teachers who can fully understand the difficulties and who have learned to cope with them; indeed, in simply having enough teachers.
The Warnock Committee said in Chapter 7, paragraph 12, that,
"The slightest participation in ordinary class activities can be strikingly beneficial to children with special educational needs, and their total exclusion should not be accepted before every possibility has been considered".
I was very interested last week when attending a Youth Affairs Lobby meeting in this House, where disabled young people were talking to us, to hear one who suffered from cerebral palsy say that it took him three years to feel easy in ordinary society and to catch up socially after he had left his residential school. The difficulties of isolation and remoteness from ordinary life were stressed by others there.
In the last week I have talked to two people I know well whose handicapped children had moved in the last nine months from special schools—very good ones, they admitted—to ordinary schools. They said that the difference to the children had been tremendous. They had got on better with their work, they had made friends with ordinary children and gained confidence generally. The model of the ordinary child is necessary for disabled children. On the other side of the coin, the earlier normal, healthy, ordinary children are made aware of the difficulties of those less lucky than themselves, the more ready they are to accept them and help them.
The USA legislated six years ago to achieve integration. All children are to be educated together, accept where the nature or severity of the handicap is such that education in ordinary classes cannot be achieved satisfactorily. However, I should like to make it clear that, although I am in favour of as much integration as possible, I am certain that special schools will remain an essential provision and that some children will be best served by being educated in them for the whole of their school life.
Good planning for integration is essential, and here we come back to resources. The section on the financial effects of the Bill says:
"It should not give rise to significant additional expenditure".
Warnock, in Chapter 7.56, says that the integration in ordinary shools of children currently ascertained as handicapped, if achieved without loss of educational quality, is not a cheap alternative to provision in separate special schools and that there is no short cut. Nobody, I am sure, would want this Bill to encourage integration on the cheap. Mrs. Warnock in her evidence to the Select Committee said she feared that some authorities would move children from special schools into ordinary schools without adequate provision and then claim that they were acting in the spirit of the Bill. "I feel most missionary about this", she said.
The Minister has just said in her speech that 18 per cent. of the children with the needs which Warnock
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is talking about are already in ordinary schools. But I believe the report brings out clearly that these are the children who need to be identified, who need some extra and special education and that teachers, adequately trained and experienced, are needed for them. I still think that the Bill is very much more about the 2 per cent. of children, most of whom are already in special schools, than about the 18 per cent. which the report says are in need of special educational provision in ordinary schools.
On 16th June the Government issued a circular, 2/81, asking local authorities to review their plans on surplus school places. Interestingly enough, I discovered that some CEOs had not received the circular before they read about it in the press. The circular urges local authorities to close a number of schools, to rationalise provision and to send information on the numbers and expected numbers in their schools in 1981 and right through to 1986. This information is requested for special schools, too. So one assumes that some of these will be expected to close. If school buildings are to be sold off, is the department thinking of putting money from the sale of these into resources for implementing Warnock and integration? Or is the money to go into the general pool? I think the least they can do is to finance some pilot schemes of integration or to support pilot schemes which are already under way in some more imaginative authorities. These would not cost vast sums. Experiments by forward-looking people in different local authority areas are often the way in which progress is made. The Warnock Report quotes a number of successful experiments in Chapter 7.12. I heard only the other day of a comprehensive school at Angmering in Sussex, a school of 1,100 pupils, where 80 to 90 disabled are being very successfully integrated and readily accepted by both staff and pupils. I understand that Haringey has been very successful in integrating deaf children into ordinary schools.
Developments in teacher education and initial training, in in-service training, were among Warnock's three main priorities. No mention is made of this in the Bill, though the Minister did give us some welcome news in her speech just now. Nor indeed has the idea of a unified special education advisory and support service been mentioned in the Bill. Without this, the report says that the three priority recommendations are unlikely to be successfully implemented. The role of special schools as resource centres is not mentioned in the Bill. Some statutory duties should be put on local authorities to cover some of these points.
I want also to raise another of Warnock's three priority recommendations: the provision of post-16 education training for pupils with special educational needs. I understand that the definition of "child" in Clause 20(1) to include anyone who has not attained the age of 19 and who is registered as a pupil at a school means, if read in conjunction with Clause 2, that the local education authority will have a duty to provide education in a school for such pupils until 19. Before the school-leaving age was raised to 16, children in special schools had to stay on an extra year. This is no longer the case. I should like to know what exactly are the Government's intentions on this. I had regarded it as a very great weakness in the Bill that no provision is made for further education for those with special

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needs, although it may be that something is contemplated as a result of this document, The Legal Basis of Further Education, which, unfortunately, I acquired only last night and therefore have not had time to study properly.
The White Paper said that it is a weakness of the law governing further education that it makes no specific reference to the needs of handicapped students. In spite of this, the ideal opportunity, one would think, to legislate in this Bill has not been taken. I understand that reference is made to what was said in the White Paper in paragraph 11, which says that action is not being taken because of the wider review of the law which is the subject of this report. Paragraph 37 deals with special education and further education, and says:
"We take the Government's recognition of the need to clarify the law in this respect as meaning there ought to be a duty on local education authorities at least to have regard to the need to ensure that appropriate provision is available for students with special educational needs".
I am not sure that I consider that "at least to have regard to the need" is quite enough, but as this document came out so shortly before the Second Reading of this Bill I think we shall have to pursue these matters in Committee.
I hope that other Bills going through this House at the moment will make the problem of access to further education establishments easier for the physically handicapped. I hope, too, that physically handicapped young people will not be obliged to go to certain establishments just because they are the only ones they can get into. It is the courses which they want to follow that should determine where they go. We should deplore any attempts at concentrating or rationalising facilities which could lead to the arbitrary allocation of students to certain universities or colleges of higher education without proper regard to individual choice or the suitability of the course. When considering what further education or training a pupil should follow, good careers advice is essential. Again we hear nothing of this in the Bill. I hope that in the clause which prescribes the duties which are put on local educational authorities we can introduce a subsection to ensure that they have on their advisory staff at least one officer who is a specialist in this field.
Closely allied to the lack of education/training provision for those over 16 is the ignoring of the Warnock recommendation that local education authorities should become responsible for a specific educational element in adult training and day centres. I understand that in Committee it was said that it is already possible for teachers to work there, and the Minister confirmed that just now. If, however, as I believe, it would be positively advantageous for that educational element to be there, I can see no reason for not having it written into the Bill, thus ensuring that the less forward-looking authorities are brought up to the level of the more far-sighted. It seems to me totally inconsistent for there to be a teaching input in day nurseries for one age group, the under-fives, and not in another, the over-16s, where perhaps it is even more vital.
I should like to turn to the position of parents as the Bill affects them. The Minister has spoken about this.
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It is good that the Government have given them a greater involvement in the education and assessment of children with special needs, as described in Clause 5, and that they have certain rights of appeal. Parents of children who have statements made about them can appeal against the special education provision specified in the statement to an appeal committee as set up under the 1980 Act. But that committee cannot finally determine the issue, as it can for children with no statements. This emphasises the fact that you are creating two classes of children, those with and those without statements, and are positively discriminating against the parents of those children. I see the problem, and the Minister has expanded upon it, but I am not convinced of the rightness of the decision, even now.
Where I think we shall have to probe is on the right of access to information. This was discussed at length in another place, but no final conclusion was reached. We have to admit that it is a very difficult area. I myself have found my earlier anxieties about total openness vanishing and have gradually become convinced that the gains in confidence arrived at through making all reports available are worth the risk in a very few cases of causing alarm and distress. I realise that this is not in line with Warnock, but that committee did, apparently, have great difficulty in coming to a conclusion.
We should have a full discussion in Committee on this and on paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 regarding the disclosure, keeping and transfer of statements. Who has access to statements about their children is a very important matter to parents. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy (de Knayth) will be speaking on the topic of access to information because she made a strong case for the parents in our debate on 14th January, reminding us that the United States' Education of All Handicapped Children Act gives parents there the right to examine all relevant records and reports, and this seems to have worked satisfactorily.
The Warnock Committee urged that there should be a natonal advisory committee to monitor the working of the Bill, to give advice, to make known examples of good practice. I have had many representations on this. Apart from this Government's generic objection to Quangos, I cannot understand their obstinacy in refusing to accept this. Their stand on this would seem to contradict their own argument that there was no need for extra resources if better use was made of existing resources with an extension of good practice. A co-ordinating body could be a huge help here. The failure to give way on this makes one suspicious of the Government's good intentions as far as the Bill is concerned. I hope very much that they will agree to look at this again. I am quite certain that enough very well qualified volunteers would man the committee and I dare say many who were on the Warnock Committee itself—and the cost need not be astronomical.
There is one last omission from the Bill that I should like to see corrected. Where non-maintained schools are used by local authorities it is essential that those schools should have governing bodies with parents and teacher representation on them. I understand that the Secretary of State has given an undertaking that this

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shall be so and we may have to discuss why it should not be written into the Bill.
I am not speaking on the other main Warnock priority—the under-fives—as my noble friend Lady Jeger will deal with that. I think we may have to do a little probing in Clause 1(4), which deals with language difficulties, when we come to the Committee stage.
So, my Lords, to sum up, I suppose one can give one cheer for the Bill. It is satisfactory that the old categories of handicap are disposed of, that there is a new definition of special educational needs and provision, and that parents are to have some greater rights—but, in my view, not enough. I do not think that the balance as between the professionals and the parents is right and I hope that other noble Lords will enlarge on that. In our view there are very important omissions from the Bill which I hope we can rectify in this House, where we have so many who are both well informed and deeply interested. In which case, I think we shall give two cheers for the Bill. Otherwise I shall be inclined to think that the words "cosmetic" and "fraud" as descriptive of the Bill are true and that this half-hearted effort is a poor contribution to the International Year of Disabled People.
4.33 p.m.
Lord Banks: My Lords, I should like to join in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for her very clear and lucid explanation of the purpose and the contents of this Bill. I should like to join, too, in expressing thanks to Mrs. Warnock and her committee, on whose work the Bill is largely based. Like the two previous speakers, I look forward with keen interest to the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox.
It seems to me that the principal objects of the Bill are, first, to set out a new definition of "educational need"; secondly, to provide a new statutory structure supporting it; thirdly, to embody a commitment to integration; and fourthly, to give parents a greater voice in decisions taken about their children. On these Benches we fully endorse these objects. In particular we are glad that most handicapped children will be educated in ordinary schools, although we understand the need for safeguards and we welcome the fact that the views of parents in this respect are to be carefully attended to.
When we debated this subject on 14th January on the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, I think all who spoke expressed support for these aims as they were set out in the White Paper which followed the Warnock Report. But most of us had fears about certain aspects of the Government's plans and the question is how far does the Bill go towards setting these fears at rest? A major criticism at that time was the criticism to which the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has referred this afternoon, that there is a lack of additional resources. When we considered this in January it seemed unlikely that the wider number to be covered could be integrated, principally into ordinary schools, without a fairly substantial increase in resources.
The need for special equipment, for more teachers, more speech therapists, seems obvious. The Warnock Committee advocated one educational psychologist to every 5,000 pupils whereas the present ratio is one to every 9,000–10,000. So the criticism about additional
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resources applies to the Bill as it did to the White Paper, and I think there is a genuine fear that integration may on occasion be thwarted by lack of resources. It is a major defect in the Bill, although I appreciate what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has said about level expenditure and redeployment.
Concern was also expressed in our earlier debate about teacher training, to which the noble Baroness referred this afternoon. She referred to three aspects of training: initial training, specialised training and in-service training, and I think it is the in-service training which concerns me most. If one is embarking on an enterprise of integration of this kind it seems desirable that as many as possible of those involved should receive some training as soon as it can be arranged.
Reading the debates which have taken place on this matter in another place I could not help feeling that this problem has not yet been fully tackled. Again, the lack of resources seems to be at the root of the matter. There was much discussion in another place about access to information for parents, to which the noble Baroness, Lady David, has just referred and the question of whether parents should see the reports of the multi-professional teams. I am quite sure that we shall be returning to that question during the Committee stage in this House.
Related to that is the question of whether appeal findings should be binding on local education authorities. I listened with interest to what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said about that and I think we shall want to consider carefully what she said. I feel that we shall be further discussing this matter as well during the Committee stage.
Concern was expressed in the debate in January about the position of independent schools for the handicapped. This matter was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady David. At that time it was urged that the independent schools should have a governing body on which parents and representatives of local education authorities could sit and, like the noble Baroness, Lady David, I understand that the Government have said that this is in fact what will happen. But I am not quite sure exactly how it is to be brought about and I should be extremely grateful if the noble Baroness, when she replies, could confirm that it is certain that these independent schools for the handicapped will in fact have governing bodies of this nature.
I welcome the fact that the named person is now incorporated in the Bill. This was a Warnock recommendation to which many of us attached considerable importance. The named person will deal with cases where a statement is made—and I agree that it is better to use the word "statement" rather than the word "record", which has unfortunate associations.
Co-ordination between the services, locally and nationally, to which the noble Baroness, Lady David, referred—between the educational services, the health services, the social welfare services—is not, as I understand it, finally settled. The Government appear reluctant to have an advisory committee, but I believe that they are going to consult the organisations that would be involved in such a committee, including voluntary organisations. I hope that they are open to accept such advice whether or not it accords with their preconceived ideas. I still think that as well as

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having a national committee there is much to be said for a standing committee supporting each local education authority, comprising representatives from all the relevant departments and voluntary organisations.
Finally, my Lords, I should like to ask the Minister about the amendment moved in another place by my honourable friend Mr. Clement Freud, which would have placed a duty on the National Health Service to notify parents of handicapped children of the relevant support organisations to which they could turn. The Government promised to look at this again. The case for this amendment was emphasised in a moving article in New Society last week, an article written by the mother of a mongol child. In the course of that article she says this:
"While we received sympathy and support from family and friends, support in an informed and practical form was rarely offered by any of the official bodies we came into contact with. … While my son's health was carefully monitored at regular hospital checkups, at no visit was I directed towards any useful organisation or asked to discuss the problem I might have as the mother of a handicapped child".
She goes on:
"The breakthrough in getting advice and information came through a chance 'phone call from an acquaintance, who, when I told her about Will, immediately suggested people I might contact for information. One of those contacts then suggested that I should get in touch with the Down's Babies Association. Getting in touch with them meant a breakthrough for me, not just in finding out factual information but also in getting advice on positive action I could take to help develop Will. Even more important, my contact with the association put me in touch with other people who also believed that their Down's Syndrome child had potential to be developed and a role to play".
The mother in question was not making any complaint about the medical care. The medical care continued in the home; the hospital had a home care unit. But looking after a handicapped child of that kind covers very much more than the medical care, important though that is.
In conclusion, my Lords, I welcome the Bill. I regret the lack of additional resources, I have the other reservations I have expressed, but I support the Second Reading on behalf of my noble friends and hope that the Bill will be further improved in Committee.
4.44 p.m.
Baroness Lane-Fox: My Lords, I really am very conscious of the great privilege it is to be addressing your Lordships' House on this first occasion. May I record my gratitude for the remarkable help and consideration I have received here since I took my place among your Lordships? My wish today is to welcome this Bill, particularly Clause 2(7). This says that a child with special educational needs who is educated in an ordinary local authority school shall so far as is reasonably practicable engage in the activities of the school. Remembering my own experiences as a severely disabled 12 year-old, I want to reiterate what has been generally expressed, in the Warnock Report and elsewhere—namely, that it is to the good of disabled children as far as is possible to mix with able-bodied children. I humbly claim that it is very good for able-bodied children to mix with us, because in that way normal values and assessments can be made, corners can be rubbed off and the common difficulties can be better understood.
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While in no way wishing to belittle the excellent work that we know is carried out in some special schools, today there is no denying that there is this growing belief that wherever possible special school pupils should get to know the climate of ordinary schools. Quite a long time ago a friend of mine was educated, despite her very heavy disabilities, in a fair sized private school. She was the daughter of two teachers and that may have encouraged the school's administrators to open their hearts and their doors and to overlook the annoyance and the hindrance that could well have been caused by enrolling her. But their generosity paid off handsomely for they found the other pupils helped her and did a great deal to make good any shortfall. Not only did the disabled pupil keep well up with the high educational standard of learning but when her co-pupils left they went out with a better understanding of disability, which helped them in later life.
The fact that pupils in large ordinary schools often know very little about severely disabled people was brought home to me very strongly when, during this International Year of Disabled People, I was lucky enough to be asked by several large secondary schools to address sessions of various age groups of their pupils, to show that, although when we are in our wheelchairs or on crutches or sticks, or perhaps have contorted faces, et cetera, we look different, basically all of us are of the same species. It was a very fascinating exercise once the barrier of difference was removed, and one tried to do that largely by trying to make them laugh. Unselfconscious questions ranged between a rather plaintive, "Please, Miss, before you got your polio, did you ever think you would get it"? to a more positive "Please, Miss, will you tell me where me and my friend can put down our names to help you people?". What was very clear was that their interest and warmth of heart sprang to my rescue, and later they said that they wished to include the disabled young people in their activities.
It is obviously essential that the progress of able-bodied pupils should never be encumbered by disabled pupils. I say that with sincerity. This must be ensured. But paradoxically there will be instances where the integration of disabled students into ordinary schools does not meet the full needs of individual pupils, and that, too, must be guarded against. It seems to me that the provisions of the Bill allow at every stage improvement of opportunities for children with special educational needs, and that is what we are after.
Perhaps consumers among us know best of all that, in the very special work in ordinary schools, teachers should be trained in particular to be flexible, flexible enough to meet individual requirements. But an awful lot depends on the understanding co-operation of the head teacher and the resourcefulness of the other teachers concerned, as well as on the accessible accommodation, the size of class and the equipment. Of course, this all does call for funds.
It is unnecessary to explain to your Lordships, I realise, that money spent in educating disabled children can be both humane and economic, because helping children at this stage to be as independent as possible and to have the chance to make the very most of their talents and abilities can prevent them from growing into unhappy people with chips on shoulders and an attitude of mind calling later for hospitalisation. It

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can help them to become industrious, tax-paying individuals. The work achievements of some such people already illustrates that the money devoted to this subject is well invested. I feel that people are really supported by Clause 2(7) because these pupils should now get a better chance of joining in all the fun and the trials of sharing school life with able-bodied children.
Before concluding, I should just like to refer to the clause which the noble Baroness the Minister so kindly explained—namely, Clause 1(4). I fear that it was double dutch to me. It speaks about language and it says:
"A child is not to be taken as having a learning difficulty solely because the language…in which he is, or will be, taught is different from a language…which has at any time been spoken in his home".
I understand from what has been said that that is because it will be dealt with in another way. However, it is so very difficult for these children to be taught in a foreign language and the recently published interim report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Education of Children from Ethnic Minority Groups proves that even West Indian children have very real language problems.
As my attention is drawn to this matter because I am one of many people in this country cared for by coloured nurses both in hospital and in the community, it seemed only fair to make the point, which they have so often made to me, that their growing family problems are often very much increased by this very real handicap. They have put it as a handicap—I found it in the Bill and I thought that it was marvellous. However, if it is to be dealt with in other ways I shall be able to reassure some of my nursing friends. There are those as regards whom language troubles do constitute a real learning problem and it is as a tribute to those nurses that I have made this modest glancing reference to the clause before wholly welcoming the Bill. I thank your Lordships.
4.52 p.m.
Lord Alexander of Potterhill: My Lords, it is my privilege as well as my pleasure to convey the congratulations of the House to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for not only an interesting but a vitally important speech on this subject and to express the hope that we shall hear her on many future occasions.
I welcome the Bill. I do not wish to make any reference to what is in it. I want only to refer to three matters which are not in it and which I think are vitally important. In my view we have made a mistake in our thinking to refer to handicapped children as if they were a single group. The physically handicapped are in a different position from the mentally handicapped. The only need of the physically handicapped to enable them to attend the ordinary school and to take full advantage of the educational facilities is fundamentally physical access and physical ease of movement within the school. I know that the noble Minister will say that that is dealt with in the school building regulations. However, the school building regulations only apply to new schools and the plain fact is that in the years immediately ahead, because of falling school rolls, we shall not be opening new
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schools, but we shall be closing existing schools.
I may be wrong but I would hazard a guess that there are hundreds, and much more likely thousands, of ordinary schools where access for the physically disabled is not available. It would be rather pointless for a local education authority to make a statement regarding a physically handicapped child saying that he should be educated in an ordinary school if, in fact, the physical access makes it impossible for the child to do so. Therefore, I greatly hope that special steps will be taken to seek to secure in existing schools the necessary alterations to school buildings which will enable access to the physically handicapped. If, as was suggested earlier, we are to get any money for selling off some of the schools, we might use that money to put the others right in this respect.
The second matter to which I wish to refer concerns one of the main recommendations of the Warnock Report which is not embodied in the Bill and to which reference was made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and by the noble Lord, Lord Banks. One of the imperative requirements if this Bill is to be successful, is effective co-ordination of at least three services: the Social Services Department; the Department of Health; and the Education Department. I do not think that that will happen unless there is an effective means of keeping a watch on it, of generalising good practice, and of securing effective co-operation in the area of each local education authority. Their recommendation in paragraphs 16.43 to 48 argued the case which I do not need to go over.
I do not think that it would be expensive. Representatives of the three services would, I am certain, be only too happy to fulfil this function. I see them reporting at least once a year to the Secretary of State as to the state of co-ordination and co-operation between the services and, I would hope, that there would be some pressure on the Secretary of State—if there was failure in this respect—to take adequate steps to secure that it happened.
The third matter to which I should like to refer is the question of resources. I was told the other day that this Bill was "Warnock without resources". I must say that I was a little disappointed to find in the opening part of the Bill, in the financial statement, so much emphasis on the fact that it will not cost very much. It is not only a question of the amount of resources that will be necessary: I am much more concerned with the methods by which they are made available.
For the last 23 years no Secretary of State for Education has had any means of securing that money put into general grant, rate support grant or block grant will be applied for the purposes for which it was intended. The Minister referred to the importance of in-service training. I well recall securing the provision of £9 million in rate support grant for the in-service training of teachers. Two million was spent on that purpose, and what the other £7 million was spent on I do not know. Whether it was spent on other parts of the education service or whether it was spent on things which had nothing whatever to do with education, nobody could tell me. I would plead, therefore, with the Minister and with the Government. In this matter they are taking an initiative, a special initiative, and I would hope, therefore, that as regards any resources

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made available for this purpose, steps would be taken to secure that they are used for this purpose and not merely be put into block grant where no such guarantee can be given.
Nor would such a step create a precedent. It already applies in the case of monies made available for the training of careers teachers. I would very much hope that the Government would consider that this was one of the occasions where there is justification for specific grants to be allocated to these purposes and necessarily devoted to these purposes and not merely left to the discretion of individual authorities as part of block grant where they might never reach the purpose for which they were intended.
I welcome the Bill. I hope that it will be improved in Committee, and I very much hope that the noble Baroness the Minister will seek to secure these additional purposes which I think are essential if the Bill is to make a real contribution to the needs of these children. If not, I am bound to say that I share the view expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that it will be evidenced that this is no more than a gesture to the Year for the Disabled rather than a purpose of intention to help children whose needs are there.
5 p.m.
Lord Vaizey: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on her maiden speech, and say how much it was enjoyed by the rest of your Lordships' House, and how delighted we are that she is here. I must say that her jet-propelled wheelchair has added a new hazard to life in your Lordships' House. She is actually the seventh wheelchair member; that constitutes a new party—almost as many as the Social Democrats. I wonder whether any other legislative chamber in the world has quite as many wheelchair members as your Lordships' House. It shows the breadth of experience that we have as we avoid them whizzing along the corridors.
I should like to extend my warm congratulations to my noble friend the Minister on this Bill. For a fifth of the children of this country the Bill is as big a breakthrough as the 1944 Act was for 100 per cent. of children. Although the Bill is not exactly what the Warnock Report recommended, it certainly embodies the great bulk of the Warnock recommendations. It has been very considerably improved during its passage through another place by the rather new constitutional mechanism that was used for it and which I think shows, quite conclusively in this particular instance, that consideration in a specialised committee of that kind in the other place can send legislation to this House in a much better shape than that in which much of the legislation normally arrives.
I think that Mrs. Warnock is to be congratulated because she has produced a report which is practical and easily put into legislative form. The legislation is here, and I gather that she has followed it up by a special meeting of her committee in Lincoln—I am not quite sure whether it was Lincoln the city or Lincoln College, Oxford—in order to review the progress. I have strongly recommended that all chairmen of royal commissions or committees of inquiry should do that on a regular basis if they really want to see their
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work embodied into legislation and carried through. I am very grateful that Mrs. Warnock did that.
Incidentally, it is not the only report that has actually been carried through. The report of the Gulbenkian inquiry into the training of musicians, of which I was the chairman, has been 95 per cent. implemented and it has not required any legislation or any expenditure. It is a small point which I should like to add.
We must distinguish between the legislative framework and the resources. The 1944 Act was passed without any commitment of resources. It was quite impossible for the war-time coalition Government to make forward commitments not knowing the circumstances which would arise in peacetime. I think that a very similar condition now prevails. This is the legislative framework. I would respectfully submit—and here I disagree slightly with the noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench and the noble Lord, Lord Banks—that arguments and debates about resources are another kind of debate. I think that my noble friend can take some comfort from the fact that the fall in the number of pupils in the schools is so dramatic—though I must say that people seem very unwilling to believe it—that it is a fact that the average expenditure per head in schools is actually going up, and the pupil/teacher ratio has actually continued to improve. I think my noble friend said that, or if it was not her, it was my right honourable friend in another place, in a recent Parliamentary Answer So the resources may be being cut, but the pupil numbers are being reduced even faster.
Interestingly enough, this is exactly what happened in the 1930s when the great increase in grammar school provision took place without any increase in expenditure, because again the number of children in the schools was actually dropping. I think that more resources will have to be diverted to this 20 per cent., but I do not despair of the resources being there in the present circumstances.
Most of the points that I would have made in my speech are Committee points, but there are just two or three general principles that I want to refer to before I sit down, because I am anxious to let my noble friend Lord Swinton go to hear his noble kinswoman Lady Masham give a speech in Westminster Abbey. First, I think that we should listen to the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill. It is time that the complete legislative framework of the 1944 Act was replaced. Increasingly, we are doing bits here and bits there, and it is out of date; it does not work. Nowhere is this clearer than in the whole field of further and higher education.
At the moment, we have no fewer than three departments concerned with education for young people aged over 16. We have the Department of Education and Science, the Manpower Services Commission and the Department of Employment. What resources go to which is, so far as I can see, entirely a matter of accident, and not at all of policy. I, personally, believe that the time has come to merge the whole of the work of the Manpower Services Commission in this field with the work of education. I should like to see two completely new Ministries: a Ministry of Schools and a Ministry of Skills, but that is a private view. I say this because I think that this Bill will take its place in a series of major Acts which ought to be brought

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before Parliament to tidy up what is an increasingly untidy and unsatisfactory position, which wastes resources and which leads to unnecessary suffering on the part of individuals.
I am very pleased indeed about the assurance that has been given as regards the governors of independent schools. This is very important. The handicapped in particular have a very high proportion of their total number in the independent sector, and these independent schools should be subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as we have given to the maintained sector in the Act that was passed last year.
The last point I want to make—and I shall, of course, raise other points in Committee, if I am fortunate enough to be here—is about the National Advisory Council. I think that I am as doubtful as anyone else about the value of talking shops, national advisory councils and things of that sort. Quite often for quite a few people they provide a nice trip to London to meet friends. However, here we have a very special problem. It is the Health Service, the social services and the education system which have to be brought together. Unless they are brought together by bringing together, on a systematic basis, those who are leading this field, then the co-ordination simply will not happen. I am very sorry indeed about what happened to the Children's Committee and I am very sorry that the Court Report has not been followed up as well as the Warnock Report was.
However, with those minor caveats—or, now I come to think of it, quite major caveats—I should like to renew my congratulations to my noble friend and say how much I shall enjoy the Committee and Report stages of this very important Bill.
Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, my name is not on the list of speakers, but I must take objection to what the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, has said on the matter of nice trips to London. Many people serve on committees, and to try to help the Minister we have different departments. It is not a nice trip down to London. We come here to try to help.
Lord Vaizey: My Lords, I am sure that that is perfectly correct in the noble Lord's case. But I am not wholly convinced that many of these bodies produce quite as much as we who sit on them would like to think they do. I assure you that I am just as guilty as anyone else.
5.10 p.m.
Lady Kinloss: My Lords, I am delighted that today we are at long last beginning to legislate following the Warnock Report. It is now three years since the committee chaired by Mrs. Warnock reported. It has been a pleasure to listen to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, explaining the Bill in her usual eloquent fashion I say "eloquent" but I mean "elegant" too. I have many times argued in debate for the concept of intergration wherever possible, and I am happy to see introduced the new concept of special educational needs. There is a sense in which every child has special educational needs, for no two individuals have identical talents. From this point of view each child requires special educational consideration. The old concept
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of the average child identical with all the rest is narrow and indefensible. And in the past it has been equally mistaken to single out handicapped children as something utterly different from all the rest. It is only when the handicap is very severe that separate and special provision may become necessary.
The whole success or failure of the Bill when it becomes law will depend upon the crucial factor of teacher training for new teachers, and adaptation courses, one might hope, for teachers already in service. I was very pleased to hear what the Minister had to say in regard to the problems of teacher training. I say this because H.M.I.'s report—the one produced in 1978—on Education of Children in Hospitals for the Mentally Handicapped states that, of the 208 teachers in the existing schools, 54 only have any special specialist training, while no less than 53 had no professional qualifications at all. Given the enormous effort in terms of teacher training in the country, I find this a disturbing and saddening state of affairs, which has no doubt existed for a very long time, and for which no particular Government can be held responsible.
About two years ago some American friends came to stay with us with their two children, one perfectly normal but the elder one of 8½ years has spina bifida and was also hydrocephalus. She was a wonderfully integrated child, of high intellect. She spent one afternoon sitting below the Bar in your Lordships' House, and at tea afterwards she asked intelligent and interesting questions. The parents had not only been kept informed at all stages of her progress or of any problems as they arose, but had been trained how to look after her and encourage her to look after herself as much as possible. She attended an ordinary primary school in Cambridge for the year that her father was there and enjoyed it thoroughly, and apparently made many friends.
This is only one example of the kind of problem with which Clauses 4, 5, 6 and 7 deal. Plainly statements are essential to parents who are able and willing to look after their handicapped child. I am very glad that, as the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has already said, a named person as recommended by Mrs. Warnock has been accepted by the Government. I would also like to see brought together by the Government a national advisory committee as recommended by MIND, and many professional and voluntary organisations. I gather that the Government do not consider such a committee necessary at present, but did give a commitment in another place to call a conference of professional and voluntary organisations to discuss the matter. Since then some voluntary organisations have said that they consider this suggestion unsatisfactory as the only solution.
While I appreciate the Government's reluctance to create new Quangos, there was a suggestion made in another place for expanding the work of the existing Children's Committee so as to cover the duties of a national advisory committee on special education. But I now understand that the Children's Committee is to be wound up. So I would have thought that there was more need now to have a national advisory committee which could perhaps help to co-ordinate the various Government department's concerned, together with professional, lay and parental opinion.

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I now turn to the problems of mentally handicapped children in long-stay wards. I think that nobody who has seen the film the Silent Minority could disagree with the idea that we have a long way to go in our treatment of the handicapped adolescent. The difference in behaviour between the young in the children's wards where they had schooling, even if not for many hours a week, and those same youngsters when they transferred to the adolescent wards with nothing whatever to do in most cases, was striking. They became difficult and destructive, for the most part through boredom and in some cases to call attention to themselves, but also of course because of their inability to communicate their needs.
It has now been recognised that LEAs have a duty to 16 to 19 year-olds, if they were registered as pupils at a school, to continue their education if requested to. Many handicapped young people over 16 need further education, yet in school may not be appropriate, but possibly in a training centre or some other institution of further education. I am pleased to note that the document The Legal Basis for Further Education recommends that there should be a duty on LEAs to provide further education, both in school and in training centres. I hope that the handicapped young person will benefit by this.
Perhaps, my Lords, some of the needs of handicapped youngsters in long stay wards could be met by voluntary organisations and by part-time teachers and occupational therapists. Man is essentially a creative being, and it is because of his ability to make tools and employ them for his use that we differentiate the earliest kinds of human being from superficially similar animals. With the mentally handicapped in long stay wards we must be careful to avoid frustrating their essential nature, and I hope that this Bill will become law in this International Year of Disabled People.
5.16 p.m.
The Earl of Swinton: My Lords, may I start by offering my congratulations too to my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox. I have known her for many years and I know that what we have heard this afternoon is just a preliminary to what we hope to hear over the years from her, because she speaks equally well about the disabled and about a number of things. She will be a great asset not only to this House but also to the mobile Bench. As my noble friend Lord Vaizey said, with her splendid electric chair she will not only be inflicting mental anguishes upon successive Front Benches of varying shades of political opinion but I know that they may also be in danger of suffering some damage as her machine goes zooming along the front of them.
I have some apologies to make this afternoon. My first is that I am afraid that I must apologise to the remaining speakers in this debate, and especially to my noble friend Lady Young, as I shall not be here for the end of the debate. As my noble friend Lord Vaizey said, many months ago my noble kinswoman Lady Masham was asked to deliver the one-person oration at Westminster Abbey this evening, and I promised I would go along to hear her and to encourage her, and I dare not miss that. She also asked me to say who sorry she is not to be taking part in this debate
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on this occasion. As I am sure noble Lords need no reminding, this is a subject in which she is greatly interested. Unfortunately she is heavy with speech. I think she has to talk for 40 minutes in the Abbey this evening, and she really thought she could not tackle two major debates on one day. Therefore, I give her apology too. Lastly, my apologies to my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who I have mucked about this afternoon. We have been chopping and changing in the batting order as to whether I would be on and finished before the Abbey or whether I would come on in his place later on, and I apologise for any inconvenience I have caused him.
Apart from a very apologetic individual this afternoon you also see before you a very fortunate man indeed. I am fortunate because my own local authority of North Yorkshire, which I think might be considered by many to be conservative with both a large and a small "c"—and perhaps even in some eyes reactionary—throughout all the cuts and the circulars and the instructions from central Government has stuck to cutting and cutting but it is also the only authority in the country that has opened a brand new post-Warnock special school. I have the very great good fortune, which indeed makes me such a happy person, to be the first chairman of the governors. I thought I would tell you something about that this afternoon, because it is obviously involved with the Bill we have in front of us, but also perhaps reflects somewhat on the change of thought in special education that is going on in the country.
The school was built in very close co-operation with the Department of Education and Science, and it incorporates the philosophy of Warnock. It started off life as what might be described as just another ESN(M) school, but it was lucky enough to come into the building programme immediately after the Warnock Report and it got very rapidly changed. It opened its doors to its first children after Easter, and it draws them from a very scattered rural area, mostly villages and farms but also a handful of market towns of various sizes, and also a large military population at Catterick garrison.
How does it differ from what noble Lords perhaps think of as a normal special school? To start with, it has a nursery unit where it is, or will be, admitting children of two years old and upwards. That works in close co-operation with the children's unit at our local hospital. Indeed, the paediatrician in charge of that unit has given us an enormous amount of time and advice and is pleased to help in any way he can. These children will be reviewed very regularly and at the age of five they may move from this nursery unit into ordinary primary schools.
Then there are language classes for infant and junior children in the five to 11 year age group. These are for children with any type of language problem whatever. These children may attend for a variable period which may be a matter of terms or stretch into two or three years. During their time with us, every effort will be made to maintain the links with their ordinary schools, and indeed it is envisaged that the great majority of these children will return to their ordinary schools when they have finished their courses and got over their various difficulties.
Then there are the pupils with moderate learning

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difficulties who were previously catalogued as ESN(M) children; they will I think produce the great bulk of children with us and they will require long-term help. Then there are pupils with mild learning difficulties who will attend for what I can only describe as a blitz package of remedial teaching, especially in reading and numbers. They will probably come for, say, one or two terms and will remain on the roll of their ordinary schools, and when they return there, which they surely will, they will be supported by staff from our school who will go out and help them and their teachers with the problems they have when they are reintegrated into their ordinary schools.
Then there are pupils with mild emotional and behavioural difficulties and, again, they will come on a short-term basis, staying on the roll of their ordinary schools, and when they return, there will be support for them. There will then be a small number of children with physical disabilities. Obviously, the school is built with complete access to everything and it will be able to meet the needs of children of from two to six years with physical disabilities of average or below average ability. And eventually—this is particularly important—the school will hold a stock of aids to support these children when they go on, we hope, to education in ordinary schools.
The school has a teacher of visually handicapped children, though it is not envisaged that there shall be a class for these, but this teacher is prepared to visit any school in the catchment area and to offer advice and support to the children and teachers there. Then there is, I am glad to say—in mentioning this I look across the Chamber to the noble Baroness, Lady David—a large resource centre, which is built and is running from the school, which has a base for a good staff of remedial teachers. The idea is that these remedial teachers will go out to schools in the area, offer advice and run groups for the teachers and children in them, and encourage teachers who are interested to come into the school for sessions and encouragement on the art of remedial teaching.
I need hardly say that the school is very well equipped—I do not think I need go into the details, which will be obvious to your Lordships—with a wide range of specialists who will have their accommodation in the school, and these include an educational psychologist, a teacher of the deaf, a teacher of the visually impaired and a teacher for pre-school children with learning difficulties.
I have gone into a considerable amount of detail on this development because it is an exciting new venture. I do not want to excite your Lordships too much, and I can see that some noble Lords may wish to visit the school. While the last thing we want to do is discourage anybody from coming, at the same time we do not want to be so swamped with visitors, which threatens at the moment, that our work may suffer, so we are trying to limit visitors to one day a week. However, for any of your Lordships or anyone who reads the debate and shows interest, I am sure we would not want to turn anybody away.
Those are the sheer physical details of the school and of what we are trying to achieve. However, that is not what has impressed me most about this new school. What has impressed me most is the enthusiasm of everyone concerned with it. When we started as a new
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body of governors, we said, "We want to be involved with all the appointments from the word go, right through the whole teaching staff in the school and indeed all the domestic staff and the caretaker", because we thought it must be a team effort and we wanted to be involved. What impressed me most was the terrific quality and enthusiasm of the applicants we had for these posts.
Some noble Lords may think it not surprising that we should have got many applicants in the present situation of unemployment. But many of the people who applied were already in well-paid and reliable jobs in other areas. Many of them offered to take a cut in salary and status because they were so keen to come and work in a school which was based on the Warnock Report. That says a lot for Mrs. Warnock and her committee and a lot for the report they produced and the ideas they put forward.
I am sorry to say there is one worry in the current legislation which is troubling this very happy and enthusiastic team. It is a point which has not been mentioned in the debate so far and I may be a lone voice speaking out. I refer to the detailed assessment clauses which appear in the Bill. I must admit that I am in somewhat of a muddle because I thought I understood my noble friend Lady Young to say it would apply to only 2 per cent. of the children. On the other hand, I thought the Warnock Committee spoke about 20 per cent. or one in five as needing some sort of help, and it is the 20 per cent. we are trying to cope with in this school.
We have got away from a very formal system of assessment and we now have what I believe is a very good situation where to start with the educational psychologist meets the parents very informally and discusses the child's needs with them. This is done in a very sensitive and supportive manner and it appears to me to be the right way to do it. They then talk around or about the matter, and then he brings the parents and children along to see the school and they decide what to do. It worries me lest some of the provisions in Clauses 5, 7 and 8 and particularly Schedule 1 to the Bill will put us right back where we have come from, with a very bureaucratic and formal system where there will be notices sent out which may frighten parents with questions about appeals and all sorts of things. I hope, for the sake of what is being done, that I have completely the wrong end of the stick and that the Minister will say at the end of the debate—even if I am not here and I can read in Hansard tomorrow what a fool I made of myself—that I am wrong about this. It is worrying and I hope we shall not get back to the formal system which only hampers the flexibility—"flexibility" is the key word I would use—which is essential.
I had intended to mention the further education provisions in the Bill, and I was delighted to hear my noble friend say the Government had it in mind to do something about the issue. I had also intended to mention teacher training, and again my noble friend dealt with that. I fear that I must conclude by striking a rather unpopular note and talk about finance, a subject which several noble Lords have raised. The great thing about Warnock is that it is not an excuse to save money by closing down special schools and sending all the children, regardless, to their local

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schools. I do not think there is a danger of that happening; local authorities are much too sensitive and realise the problems. Nevertheless, it is a bit of a danger.
Like all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate, I am absolutely in favour of sending handicapped children to normal schools wherever possible, but they must be sent to the right kind of school—schools that are equipped to cope with them and where the access is suitable, but even more important than access is that the teachers are suitable and have had some training in how to deal with these children. Again, I was pleased to hear my noble friend refer to in-service teaching, but in-service teaching is not very easy now; all authorities are cutting down on teachers and it is not easy to run courses at this time. Before we send physically or mentally handicapped children out into ordinary schools the conditions must be right to receive them.
Even if we do all that, and manage to convert the buildings and have all the teachers on the right wavelength, there will still be special schools needed. I am sure that there will be needed schools for severely mentally and physically handicapped children who simply cannot cope with the pressures in the ordinary schools. The noble Lady, Lady Kinloss, mentioned the hospital schools for the very severely mentally disturbed children. I know that these schools are doing a marvellous job and that the children slip back when they go into adult wards. There is also a danger that they slip back during the school holidays. The work that the children do is so encouraging and they derive much benefit from it. But I am sure that there will always be that kind of school.
I believe, too—if I may be rash enough to say so—that there will be the need for the kind of school which I have described to your Lordships in such detail this afternoon. This is where we are going—where we can take out children for a short time, look after their special difficulties, and then send them back to their ordinary schools; where we can send out the teachers, too; and where we can send out the resources. Of course that kind of school is not cheap. It has not been cheap to build, equip and staff.
So I fear that, whatever we may think, there is a rather expensive and rather long journey ahead of us. But though I can see this road stretching into the horizon, with signposts stating, "More money wanted here, more money wanted there", at least we are making a good start on it today, and I am sure that thanks to the Bill we are setting off in the right direction.
5.32 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, as in so many other areas of life in this country, the education of children, young people, and adults is furthered and enriched by a partnership of voluntary and statutory bodies. Forty years ago a memorable White Paper entitled Partnership in the Service of Youth was a formative document for the youth service both during and immediately after the war. Long years before that the voluntary bodies and the state entered into a partnership for the provision of schools for children of all ages. But the law does not at present allow
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voluntary bodies, such as the Churches, to promote special schools.
Nevertheless, the voluntary controlled and the voluntary aided schools of the Church of England endeavour to provide special educational facilities for those of their pupils who need them. This provision is made either by integrating a small number of handicapped pupils into ordinary classes, or by means of special classes which provide facilities akin to those in special schools, while allowing the handicapped child to be integrated in the same school with those pupils who are not handicapped. That is a point on which other noble Lords have already commented on favourably.
While I speak only for myself, I know that there are many others in all the Churches who welcome much that is in the Bill. I believe that the concept of special educational needs as outlined in the Bill and explained to us by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in her opening speech, will greatly facilitate the assessment and education of children whose physical, emotion, and mental disabilities impair their education.
I believe that the recognition in the Bill of the very important role played by parents is highly significant, as is their involvement in decisions regarding the education of their children. I believe that this should do much to alleviate the considerable frustration felt by so many parents of handicapped children because they feel that they have no opportunity of expressing their own views about their children's education.
I welcome, too, the clear recognition in Clause 2 of the Bill of the role of the governors of voluntary schools. However, I wonder whether "the responsible person" mentioned in Clause 2(5)(b), and further defined in the following paragraph, is not detailed in such a way that other members of the school staff or of the governing body might not feel themselves excused from any share of the responsibility involved. I am sure that this is not the intention of the clause, and I would hope that perhaps a future Government circular might emphasise the corporate responsibility of all those concerned.
I should like to draw attention to Clause 12(4) of the Bill, which states that
"Provision shall be made in the regulations to secure that, so far as practicable, every pupil attending a special school will attend religious worship and religious instruction, or will be withdrawn from attendance at such worship or instruction in accordance with the wishes of his parents".
I rather fear that the words "so far as practicable" may refer to practicability in terms of somewhere for the worship or instruction to take place. What I should like to see would be a rewording of the clause which would make it necessary to provide the opportunity for worship and religious education appropriate to each child, unless his parents specifically ask for him to be exempted. Much consideration has been given in recent years to the religious life of disabled adults and children, and I should like to think that the Government might see fit to reword the clause so as to reflect this concern in as positive a way as possible.
With those two very modest suggestions for possible amendment I should like to welcome the Bill from these Benches. I am confident that all the voluntary bodies, including the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Free Churches, will wish to

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co-operate to the full in helping to implement the Bill's provisions when they become law.
5.38 p.m.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I consider myself privileged to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester because for five years I was recorder of that city, where I learned to respect him and the robust views which he expressed, and of which we have had another example this afternoon. In particular I was glad that he referred to the problems of the parents of mentally handicapped children, because I have a daughter who is severely handicapped both mentally and physically. If I dwell mainly upon the problems of the mentally handicapped as they are affected by the Bill, I trust that your Lordships will understand.
I also happen to be chairman of Mencap, and I see that one of my distingushed predecessors in that post, the noble Earl, Lord Longford, is present today. Your Lordships will be very sorry to hear that my immediate predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Segal, was taken seriously ill two days ago and cannot be with us, and may not be with us for some time. At Mencap we welcome the Bill. We do not find anything cosmetic about it; nor do we agree with any of the other adjectives which were used about it and which spoiled an otherwise very constructive and interesting speech which we heard from the Opposition Front Bench. This Bill is an important step forward in helping many of the mentally handicapped to lead lives which could become more useful, less costly to the community and more fulfilling and happier for themselves. Certainly Mrs. Warnock and her committee deserve our thanks and praise for laying the foundations of this.
I was particularly interested to read the proceedings in the special Standing Committee in another place because in the last two Sessions of the last Parliament I was a member of the committee—indeed, I was acting chairman of it for some time—which recommended this new departure in procedure. I think it is a great advantage to us to have, first, the written evidence of the various interested bodies, including the departments concerned, and then the evidence in cross-examination (if that is not a pejorative word) of the witnesses who were examined, including, first, Mrs. Warnock; secondly, my noble friend Lady Young; and, last, Mr. Stanley Segal, the principal of Ravenswood, of which Lord Longford and I are patrons and where our daughter is cared for. I think it must have led—and, indeed, the proceedings show that it did—to a better understanding when the Bill was considered clause by clause, line by line, to have had all that evidence in the minds of the members of the Standing Committee. Therefore, I should like to join with my noble friend in saying that this is an experiment which has so far justified itself.
Of course, it was not unexpected that two things which loomed large in the examination of the witnesses were, first, the question of integration and, next, that of resources. May I say this about integration? In that wonderful maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, she stressed the desirability of integration for the physically disabled; and there are other categories of handicapped to whom it could always be a great advantage. But I must tell your Lordships
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quite frankly that so far as the mentally handicapped are concerned, we have grave doubts about it. Indeed, at a well-attended meeting of our national council (all those present, except the advisers that we have, being parents of mentally handicapped children and young people) I invited their views as to what they felt about integration so far as the mentally handicapped were concerned, and they were very unenthusiastic about it. Moreover, they feared that under certain local authorities it could become an excuse for not getting on with the provision of special schools, and that would indeed be dangerous so far as the application of the Bill to the mentally handicapped is concerned.
As for our resources, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, and, I think, others, buildings are not the problem because of the decline in the school population. Some buildings are becoming redundant. If we may take at its face value what was said by Dr. Rhodes Boyson at the conclusion of the Third Reading debate in the House of Commons, money does not seem to be an inhibition, either, at any rate for the present. He said this:
"We are spending up to £½ billion"—
that is £500 million—
"on special education. It is a considerable sum. We should all like to spend more. We have maintained in real terms the expenditure on special education while the numbers have been dropping. That means that in real terms more will be spent per pupil in the next two or three years than is being spent now".—[Official Report, Commons, 10/6/81, col. 500.]
So money does not seem to be an inhibiting resource.
So we come to teachers. In her very valuable opening speech, my noble friend took the trouble to tell us a great deal about what is being done to train teachers—these three categories which she mentioned and which I need not repeat. But still at Mencap, I must tell your Lordships, we have doubts as to whether enough teachers trained for teaching the mentally handicapped are available, or are going to be. My noble friend, perhaps wisely, did not go into statistics as to the number of teachers so far trained, the number needed and the number that can be made available; but this is a crucial matter.
At Mencap we were very disappointed when the Quango (if I may again use the expression) established by the previous Government, the Quango called the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work, now known as CCETSW—that pronunciation is the nearest one can get—decided to abolish altogether the diploma in the training of the mentally handicapped and claimed that they were providing for that training in the more general certificate of social work. So far we are not satisfied that that is in fact being done.
We made representations to the previous Government about this. I myself have been to Ministers in the present Government, when we have always had the most wonderful hearing, let me say in passing. We have always had the most wonderful hearing when either Mr. Brian Rix, our secretary-general, or any of our senior staff, have been along. We have stressed this point about the need for the training of teachers. I do not know whether I am asking too much, but, of course, it would be of enormous help if, in reply to this debate, my noble friend were able to give us anything in terms of numbers. I know that statistics can be misleading,

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but it would help if we could be told what the true position is; because this splendid Bill really does depend for its implementation, especially where the mentally handicapped are concerned, upon the availability of enough teachers.
I have just one or two points or relative detail. We are really worried at Mencap only about two more points. The Government offered at Report stage in another place to consider them, and they have both been mentioned today, but perhaps I may stress them because we are concerned about them. The first is this duty to inform parents after the birth of a handicapped baby of the name and address of the nearest relevant support organisation. That need not embarrass the parents at all. They need not take any advantage of the information given to them; and I really do not see why this information should not be given to them. May I say that this is no effort on my part to recruit on behalf of Mencap; we do not operate that way. So I hope that the Government will concede that point.
The other point—and I know it is controversial, especially in the case of the mentally handicapped (don't I know!)—is that we feel that parents should have access to all relevant information upon which a conclusion is reached that a child, at whatever age and however early, is considered to be mentally handicapped. One knows as a parent, without getting emotional about it, that the revelation (especially as in our case, where the child seemed quite normal physically and mentally for the first few months of her life) on expert evidence that she was below par mentally was something hard to bear at the time. One wanted to know why. Fortunately we were told, but I can imagine the frustration, amounting sometimes almost to resentment, felt by parents who may be fairly humble and not having a great education, upon being told, "Your child will never be like other children". They may not understand why that is so.
This is something that is very important to parents and about which we at Mencap feel very strongly. This is another matter that the Government have offered to consider and so I implore my noble friend to table Government amendments which will deal with these two points, and perhaps to be so kind as to let us have early warning if the Government do not intend to table such amendments so that we may table amendments and press them.
Some of your Lordships may have seen that distressing television film, "The Silent Minority" about some of the mentally handicapped in two large institutions. I stress the word, "some", because obviously the film was looking for the worst and not taking the average. But the film was distressing for people to witness. It featured mentally handicapped people—mostly men—between the ages of 14 and 80, and the problem of looking after them, and that of the way in which they spent their time, was obviously an acute one. As I watched that film I could not help thinking that if this Bill had been on the statute book and implemented 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago many of the sad scenes one saw in that film would not have been as they were portrayed. So I say, let us get on with this Bill. It will not only save human misery but it may even save a lot of public expenditure, and not to
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spend money on implementing this Bill would be a very false economy.
5.52 p.m.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for not being present at the start of this debate and so I did not hear her opening address. I was in another part of the country, and I hope that the noble Baroness will accept my apology. I feel very privileged because when we last debated the handicapped I followed the noble Lord, Lord Renton, and listening again to his plea for that forgotten group of children and young people, one could not fail to be impressed by the arguments which he put forward. However, when I read the Bill, and having listened to what previous speakers have been saying, and also having read reports of the debates in the other place, I have come to the conclusion—having served as chairman of special services in Birmingham for six years in the 1960s—that there was nothing new being placed before me.
I can recollect the multi-disciplinary groups, where the child psychologist, the speech therapist, representatives from the children's committee and others properly assessed the child; and when the chairman and two members of the committee listened to appeals from parents if they were not happy. We tried to provide at least infant schooling for children who were going to be classified, to give them a trial and to ensure that the assessments were correct. I have been thinking to myself, "What is new?" Then I read some remarks made, I think, by the Minister in the other place. He said:
"I have stressed that much of what we are doing in the Bill is to put into legislation what is already good practice among the best local authorities".
I should like to ask the Government, how will the Act coerce those not-so-good local authorities to put into operation those things which the good local authorities have been doing for a long time? I speak from knowledge of my own local authority, and know that we were not in isolation because at many of the conferences I attended I met people from other local authorities who were doing similar work to our own. Will the Government be calling upon university departments of education to gather information and undertake research into the various types of integrated settings that the Government hope will be established as a result of this Bill?
How will the Minister be able to progress what she calls "good practice"? Will backward authorities be named in the press in the same way as the so-called backward local authorities who do not sell off enough council houses or who put up the rates too much are publicised in the press? Is it not important to parents of handicapped children to know they are living in an area served by a backward local authority, which does not do as much as some other local authorities in the country? It is just as important for parents of handicapped children to know that as for other people to know that the local authority is not selling off enough council houses.
I should like to reiterate what other Members of your Lordships' House have said. Both Warnock and the Bill recognise that there is still going to be a need for special schools. I speak here as the chairman

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of the governing body of a school for handicapped children in Birmingham. I was a little worried when the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, said that handicapped people were grouped into what he called a "global group", but he excluded from the global group the physically handicapped by saying that this was just a matter of access. The school of which I am chairman of governors is classified as one for the physically handicapped. Their handicaps are quite serious. They include cystic fibrosis, brain tumours, and colostomy arising from all sorts of handicaps.
It is not just a matter of access; it is a matter of having all the supportive services given with the guidance of the consultants whom the children are under in the various hospitals. Those consultants suggest the therapy and tell the nursing sister what has to be done. The children spend a week there, from Monday to Friday, and then go home at weekends. So we should not lump together either what we call the "physically handicapped".
I am not against integration but I do want to sound a word of warning. Ordinary schools must establish that handicapped children will do as well if not better than they would in special schools. What concerns me is that, whether we like it or not, local authorities are under extreme pressure to cut expenditure. That situation might encourage them to go for integration, which may mean in effect, in some cases, simply placing a handicapped child in an ordinary school with little or no support for either the school or the child. That situation has to be guarded against, especially in the case of local authorities which are not among the "good practice" local authorities at present. One can hazard a guess as to the extent of the strain placed on the teaching staff of an ordinary school where levels of support are insufficient. When one is talking about levels of support, it is not simply a case of seating a handicapped child at the front of the class because he or she cannot see very well. Many of these children have to receive medical attention, which means attending to their toilet requirements and all that means. While I accept that there are a number of highly motivated and intelligent handicapped children that will cope easily in ordinary schools, we must not assume that all handicapped children can do the same. That is very far from true.
The success of the integration is the extent of the resources. This is where one worries when one reads the Bill, because the Financial Memorandum as, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, said, does not give us very much hope. What are the resources? They are not only the buildings, but the teachers; and if we are thinking about teachers, we need specialist teachers with qualifications; if we are thinking about the partially sighted or the partially deaf or the deaf, these are teachers who must have a qualification. We are thinking then about all the supportive services and equipment. Many local authorities are aware that limited integration, only limited integration, will be very costly.
How do the Government envisage local authorities trying to implement the Act to any meaningful extent without significant extra spending? Following on what the noble Lord, Lord Renton, said, I want to say that the parents of handicapped children in many cases are not a very vocal group of parents; but they
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are just as concerned for the education and the welfare of their children as are the parents of children who benefit from the assisted places scheme. Their concern is a genuine concern and one which I think we overlook perhaps at our peril.
I should like to draw the attention of the House today to the fact that we must recognise that there are going to be smaller classes in many schools because of falling numbers. We will close a lot of schools; and Heaven knows what will happen to the school buildings. Many local authorities are being forced themselves to close schools. It is envisaged by the Government that they recognise that the more time-consuming child who will be placed in the integrated setting will have to be recompensed by the smaller class. Will the Government be taking advantage of smaller classes and reduced numbers in schools by getting integration on to the right foot by placing them in the smaller class groups. Advantage ought to be taken at this time in that particular situation.
I think it true to say that a great deal of comment has been made that it is attitudes that we must change. Once we change attitudes, we are half way to our goal. May I say to noble Lords—and perhaps I do not need to say it to those who are listening today to the debate for practically everybody is involved in some type of work with the handicapped—that attitudes to special education and to the handicapped generally have been changing outside Government much more rapidly than they have been changing inside the Government. Many voluntary bodies, because they have not been able to get the satisfaction that they wanted in the educational field for the particular children in which they are interested have set up their own schools. We have the Royal Institution for the Blind, the Birmingham Royal Institution for the Blind, the Rubella Association, the Spastics Societies, and Mencap itself, trying to fulfil a need which really is a need brought about by parental pressure and for which they raise their own money. Those attitudes have changed but those organisations are perhaps a little more concerned that more resources are not coming out of this Bill to help them further in their aims and achievements. If we look at the Bill closely, we are going to get to the stage when we have got to have a statement made on each particular child if it is thought necessary. I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that we have changed the word from "record" which I think she raised some time ago and felt a better word was needed. I congratulate her on the word "statement". Will the statement identify what is the special educational need? Will it identify that the need is physical or that it is sensory, or that it is mental or that it is a psychological need?—because what worries me is that unless this identification is made, we will have no statistics and when we have no statistics being compiled then normally we find that no services are provided. Questions are asked and the answer is that no figures are available. I think it important for us to know whether the statement will define, in the categories I have suggested, what the handicap is.
We should recognise, as did the noble Lord, Lord Renton, that the largest number of handicapped children are those classified as ESN, whether it is S or N. The success of these schools has been that the

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small teaching groups have made individual programmes successful for the pupils. What worries me is that these children, the children that have been classified as ESN in the integration process, will most likely lose out if we are not very careful. Will the schools be able to cope with this category? This will be their biggest influx. Are those schools, which now have such a great emphasis on their high academic successes (the Government support them in this) that they want to publicise their examination results, to be encouraged to take their share of the ESN children, because this will bring their percentage rate down very often at academic levels?
Therefore, I would make a plea on behalf of the mentally handicapped especially to remind noble Lords that the mentally handicapped are not just children who need remedial teaching. There are children who need remedial teaching for all kinds of reasons—long illnesses, perhaps bereavement in families—but the educationally subnormal children need more than remedial teaching and therefore one would hope that the training, the skill and the experience of staff in special schools will be recognised in any integration, and perhaps in future we might have heads of department for children with special educational needs which will cover all the children in those schools.
When we are talking about special adaptations to buildings, may I mention—because I have a special interest in the blind and the partially-sighted—the work of Elizabeth Chapman at the Faculty of Education at Birmingham University, which recognised by the department, also has a lot of information that is available for the partially-sighted inside schools, whether it might be a special reading stand or the provision of sloping desks, et cetera. Let us not forget that there are aids to help others besides the physically handicapped. I would therefore touch briefly on 16 to 19 year-olds. I feel very sorry, after reading all that went on in the debates in the other House, that the Government are not very sure what they are going to do about the 16 to 19 year-olds. I am sorry that I did not hear what the noble Baroness said about this because I feel that if integration is to mean anything, it must mean the same facilities for the disabled as for the able bodied. One hopes that in the very near future we shall have a very definite statement from the Government on what they are going to do for the 16 to 19 year-olds.
Baroness Young: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness; but as she was not here when I made my opening remarks, it would be helpful for her if she takes advantage of looking at the document the Legal Basis of Further Education which sets out a number of the Government's proposals and asks for comment from everybody.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness. I take notice of that and I shall see that she gets some comments. The real point is that young people today are having great difficulties in finding employment and the needs of the handicapped are much greater. When they reach the age of 16 to 19, just when they are ready to take this final chance, that is something that ought not to be missed.
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I conclude by taking up what the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, said when he referred to the Government setting off in the right direction in this Bill. All that worries me is that the Bill does not contain sufficient for me to conclude that we shall ever reach the destination.
6.12 p.m.
Lord Renwick: My Lords, I should like, even in her absence, to add my congratulations to those of other noble Lords to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, and to take up one or two points that she made in a very interesting speech. I have not known her as long as the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, with whom I agreed on one matter which has slightly thrown me. I now come to my noble friend the Minister and her statement about Clause 4. This is a point that puzzled him and I shall leave it for the moment and allow my noble friend to take it up in her winding up.
I represent perhaps not too much of the 2 per cent. referred to in this Bill but some of what might be called the Warnock children, the other 18 per cent., as chairman of the British Dyslexia Association. For many years now since the early days of the Warnock Report, when the committee was calling for evidence I have been in touch through every stage up to this extremely welcome appearance of the Bill. The White Paper was published I think just over a year ago. It is my first opportunity to speak on this subject since my maiden speech some six or seven years ago. I missed the debate of my noble friend Lady Masham in January on the Year of the Disabled Child and special educational needs. Some noble Lords spoke on this subject and I have been following that and the comments in the other place in the Special Education Committee with very great interest.
There are many people with a very long and professional interest in education who are speaking in this debate. I am delighted to see that I am to be followed by some real experts who might well pick up anything I happen to drop on the way. There are one or two general points regarding education that I should like to mention and see whether the Bill fits a simple, perhaps rather idealistic, idea of education that I have been thinking about for the two or three years that I have been privileged, as chairman of the Association, to talk to many educationists on both sides of the Atlantic. These have been conceptual rather than practical points.
However, what I want to say is different from some of the speeches that we have heard today. It might show that the work my association is doing, and the work the corporate members are doing, is of very great importance to the whole field of education, to the statutorily handicapped and also those who are apparently normal. I say that not meaning to be flippant. I believe that education and educationists are in a very traditional profession. I hesitate to call it institutionalised. There are parts of it which are very far-seeing. But it is resistant to change and there are a lot of ideas that we have which come from a rather conditioned view.
I do not want to get too involved because it has been a long debate but I believe that perhaps people have not thought of the fact that children and the education of their minds—because this is what we are

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talking about—are very different from each other. But when we get them to the school room we expect them to achieve the same standard. If they do not, we think that there must be something wrong with them and that they perhaps need special help from a remedial teacher.
If we got 20 children all of the same size and shape and asked them to run 100 yards, would we expect them to breast the tape together? The one that is the slowest might be good over a mile, at the high jump or throwing the discus or the hammer. When we get into a classroom situation—and I am not talking of all teachers, for there are those who do understand—if a child has not accepted the education as presented, then the teacher is inclined to think that there is something wrong with the child. This was the flexibility which attracted me in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. This is very relevant to teacher training. My noble friend the Minister was kind enough to mention the unit at Southampton which we set up and obviously teacher training is of very great importance.
It is amazing how, even among our local associations and corporate members when they have a workshop over a week-end, over Easter or on a week-day in the holidays, we are overcrowded with parents or teachers from both state and private sector schools, who either pay for themselves or are supported by local authorities and come to learn how better to teach the perhaps not totally normal child. This is most encouraging. I am confident from my personal view of the educational scene that there is enormous goodwill. This has to be capitalised upon.
I think that as far as resources are concerned there is an enormous goodwill among local education authorities and education officers. Once they see that one is not threatening them and they realise that among our members there is an enormous store of experience and expertise in the special educational field, then, my goodness! they are prepared to listen. We have had a very good response, and I hope in that way we can perhaps have some effect on the attitudes that have been mentioned earlier. My predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, mentioned the need for attitudes and it reminds me that on the last page or so of the Warnock Report—and before going any further I must pay my tribute to Mrs. Warnock for the work she did—it was said, quoting from memory, that even if the resources and the provisions were available there would need to be a change of attitude.
I am told by people much wiser than I that you cannot change attitudes, and I learned that very quickly. I formed a world association to change attitudes, but you cannot do it. What you can do is to promote awareness and understanding that—and why not?—all children are difierent. We have in our care those who are so different, or different to a degree, that within the normal educational system they fail to achieve their potential. More than that, they suffer emotional problems because, as I believe we all know, if you are "different" then, as in the animal kingdom, you are treated slightly differently. That is an attitude that I, too, would love to try to change; but I am pretty certain in my own mind that a good many of the specific learning difficulties we hear about are real differences of ability, and it would be far easier for
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them to be understood by other children if the teachers accepted and totally understood.
That brings me to the matter of integration. Of course, I have followed what has been said by your Lordships and by many of the voluntary organisations with whom we have been conferring. It is ideal for a handicapped child or one with a difference of ability or with a disability to have education with others, but only as much as (a) it does not affect the others, and (b) it is in a sphere in which the child feels competent and on a level with the others.
I do not want to keep your Lordships too long. There will be certain points of interest to us all during the Committee stage of this Bill. I should like just to mention the right of access to reports. I am no expert on the academic, professional or parental side; but purely on the humanistic side I believe that a parent's duty to his or her child is in relation to the prime impact upon that child's education. We must get the balance right between the role of the educationalist and the role of the parent. I believe that a great deal of education of the child is done before it gets near a school, and that the child is the prime responsibility of the parent. The educationalist has a specialist role to play in cases where the parent, perhaps because of society imposing functions upon him, has a difficulty in performing the function of total educator. That is surely how education evolved. I think we must remember that the role of the educationalist and that of the parent must be in partnership so as to bring out a child's confidence in the world in which he is going to emerge. This is putting things into a proper role, and we should remember that.
I believe that the parent can play the part that humanity appoints only if he has total access to information. It is unreal to expect a parent to take a decision on something as important as the child's education without access to relevant information. I believe there could be safeguards—a confidential pocket or something—in certain cases, but I am no expert in the technicalities or of legal matters, and perhaps we shall learn quite a lot in the course of the passage of this Bill. That, I believe, would be the right outcome.
As far as resources are concerned, I will try to make my point very quickly as I am conscious that time is going on. Resources should be required by the needs of that organisation and if the planning that goes into the provision of local education authorities for handicapped children or whatever is well done, I believe the money will be made available. I have a horror of the idea that, "Funds are available. What shall we do with them?" I believe that funds are available if there is a real and genuine need for them.
My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to speak and I look forward to the replies of my noble friend the Minister on Clause 4, which is fairly basic to our operations. I will leave the matter there, and wish the Bill well.
6.29 p.m.
The Countess of Loudoun: My Lords, coming as I do towards the end of this debate, I find that most points have already been covered by other speakers. There are only two matters on which I wish to comment today. From the moment they are born, all

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babies need lots of care and attention to help them grow and discover the world around them. Because they learn much more slowly, mentally handicapped babies need extra special care; and the best place for them to get that is of course at home with their families.
This is Mental Handicap Week, and so it is appropriate that, through this Bill, we should today be trying to improve the basic rules and regulations with regard to these children, and give their parents as much help and support as possible right from the start, at the birth of their handicapped babies.
Those of us who are interested in the subject were very grateful to the Government for their acceptance in another place of a number of amendments, particularly those to Clauses 3, 6, 7 and new Clause 10. The Government gave an assurance that they would see whether an amendment to Clause 10 could be made, which would ensure that after the birth of a handicapped baby parents were informed of the name and address of the relevant support organisation. I speak from personal experience over 30 years ago, when there was literally no help or advice whatsoever available—a traumatic experience.
That brings me to the matter of parents' access to all the relevant informtion on which statements are made under Clause 7. The Government gave an assurance to Mr. John Hannam in another place, when he withdrew his amendment on this matter. I refer to the Official Report of 10th June, cols. 467–478, and I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government intend to put down an amendment on this matter at Committee stage. I am fully aware of the arguments against the disclosure of information, which is a very complex question, but such information is often essential to parents considering an appeal.
There may well be a small minority of cases where the information is sensitive or disturbing, and could cause harm to parents and/or child. There may well be the attitudes of professionals to be considered; they might feel reluctant to commit their opinions to paper in this case. But I feel sure that this could be dealt with by the Government, by allowing a reasonable amount of professional discretion.
I should like to see the appeals procedure strengthened. If the Bill goes through in its present form, it will have the effect of establishing a two-class system of appeals, with fewer rights for parents of handicapped children. I feel it is wrong that these appeal committees are given advisory powers only. They should include one or more nominees of the organisations of handicapped people and/or the parents of the handicapped children, which would ensure the necessary expertise to deal with special education cases and enable them to have equal powers to appeal committees under the 1980 Education Act in respect of all other children. Were these issues to be adopted, it would enable adequate trust and communication to be established between parents, local education authorities and other professionals, and would be a big step forward in the care of our handicapped.
6.33 p.m.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, may I at the outset declare my interest in the National Deaf Children's Society, largely because one of its vice-presidents is a
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friend of our family and he and his wife have two children with impaired hearing. So my remarks will probably be in a somewhat narrow field. I give a great welcome to this Bill, and I congratulate my noble friend the Minister on explaining it in a very simple way and, particularly, for reminding us that it embraces so much of what the institutions and associations for the handicapped have been looking for over a number of years. Generally, it has been accepted that all the discussions to date have been on a most friendly basis, with the Government being quite receptive to most suggestions.
It was, therefore, rather surprising to me that the noble Baroness, Lady David, was somewhat short in her acceptance of the Bill. I think I remember the gist of what she said in her closing remarks, although it was some time ago. I was equally disappointed that the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, should also have spoken about the Bill never reaching its destination unless we do one or two things. I can only say to both noble Baronesses—and, if I misquote, forgive me—that it is better to travel hopefully than never to travel at all.
I do not want to contradict my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox—and may I join with others in congratulating her on her very warm and real-life contribution to our debate this afternoon—but I join other noble Lords who have expressed some concern over integration. The Bill places emphasis on integration, but I should not like that principle to dictate the system of education that some children and young people may need. I am thinking particularly of the deaf, because they live in their own soundless world, cut off from communication with other people, and I do not believe that a totally integrated system of education would be in their best interests. My noble friend Lord Renton emphasised this point, as did others about their own particular fields.
The deaf have a special place and I call in aid the report in the Sunday Times of 21st June, headed "Deaf miss half-price Rail Card". Apparently, all other disabled persons, including the blind and the partially sighted, can claim this concession but, at least at this moment, the deaf cannot. So here is an example of where they are specially discriminated against.
There are three areas in the Bill which give me cause for concern. Clause 1 obliges the health authority to inform the education authority of children who have special educational needs, but that is where it stops. Clause 4, however, provides for special educational needs from the age of two, while Clause 6 provides that for a child under the age of two the education authority may, with parental consent, make an assessment of that child's special needs. But the authority is not obliged at that stage to make any provision for the child.
There is a gap here, because if one takes a child who is born with impaired hearing—and I have no doubt that this goes for other disabilities or handicaps—it is most important that some remedial work and educational support of both parents and child is started immediately. I was going to say on day one, but certainly the exercises and the various other things that are done should be started within a very few months. But there is no provision for this in the Bill. If we are to make the right kind of progress later on, we should

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not begrudge the expenditure, which need not be a lot. I do not believe that expenditure is one of the worries about this Bill, and it would be inexcusable if progress later on were impaired by lack of work in the early stages. So I have real concern that we should be looking for support not from the age of two, but from birth when a disability is diagnosed.
My second area of concern arises on Clause 7, which has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords. My noble friend the Minister said that Clause 7 strengthens parental rights. As I understand it, the statement referred to in Clause 7(4) is built up from reports and so on from a variety of people; for example, teachers, medical authorities and, probably, the social services. The parents may make representations.
What illustrates my point best in subsection (5) is paragraph (c): the authority may determine not to make a statement and shall notify the parent in writing of their decision. I understand that apart from the appeal procedure, which I have not fully understood, parents at that time can do nothing; they have no right of access to the reports and so on which make up the statement. I believe this to be basically wrong. There is nothing secret about it. It is absolutely foolhardy to suggest that a parent should be mad enough to accept the statement; it depends upon the basis on which the statement is made. I think that parents should have access to all the relevant information which makes up the statement.
I want to draw to the attention of my noble friend the Minister a case which illustrates the point I am trying to make. A divorced mother with a handicapped child was advised, after the various procedures had been gone through, that the education authority thought the child should go to a special boarding school. This the mother did not want. It appeared later that the social services report indicated that the mother was living with a man, or that at least a man was living in her house. It was widely thought that this was undesirable. My understanding is that it was for that reason, given by the social services department, that the education authority felt the child should be educated at a special boarding school. However, it transpired that the man living in the house was the woman's brother. There is nothing very much wrong with that. If the mother had been able to see the papers which contributed to the statement, that misunderstanding could have been cleared up and a different decision might have been made. I believe therefore that at a later stage we should look at Clause 7 and also at Clause 8, the appeals system.
The third and final area of concern is not included in the Bill but it has been referred to by most speakers. It was mentioned in particular by the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun: namely, that the parents of a handicapped or a disabled child are not notified of the support services available. There are arguments for and against this, in that some agencies might not be quite so good or quite so responsible as others. This point has been well debated in the other place. My understanding is that the Government are going to have another look at it. I hope the noble Baroness the Minister can tell us how their "look" is getting on.
I know from friends of mine that even an affinity group can give support to a distressed parent. It does not have to be an expert group. Sometimes all that
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is needed is a little sympathy. I can say without any fear of contradiction that town halls are tremendously frightening places for distressed parents and, indeed, for most ordinary people. It is quite an experience to go to the town hall to make inquiries. People are afraid of officialdom. I think we should pay a tribute to both radio and television which run a number of talk-in programmes and so on which give this kind of information. I believe that it should be the duty of authorities to provide that information.
I hope the Bill moves along very quickly. If it can be improved during its latter stages, that will be all to the good. I believe this is the right move in the right direction and that we should get the Bill on to the statute book as quickly as we possibly can.
6.45 p.m.
Baroness Darcy (de Knayth): My Lords, may I begin by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on her very interesting maiden speech? It is particularly appropriate that it should be made on this Bill, because she has experience of being disabled as a child.
In January when we debated the White Paper, Special Needs in Education, I expressed my disenchantment at its lack of a firm commitment to achieving integrated education. I felt much the same about the Bill when it appeared. However, some progress has been made in another place and I very much hope that much more progress will be made in your Lordships' House. If it is, then I feel that we shall be moving in the right direction.
First, I should like to welcome new Clause 10. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said, it is very important that the education and training of handicapped children should start as early as possible, whether they be mentally, physically, or sensorily handicapped. May I also echo the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Banks, the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that an amendment about notification to parents of relevant support organisations should be included in the passage of the Bill through this House?
I now turn to the major points which worry me. Basically, there are two areas. Quite a lot has already been said about them. They are the rights of the handicapped child, which boil down to accessibility and the provision of equipment, and the rights of parents of handicapped children to assessments, statements and appeals.
First, in relation to access and equipment, Clause 1(2)(b) states that a child has "a learning difficulty" if,
"he suffers from a disability which either prevents or hinders him from making use of educational facilities of a kind generally provided in schools, within the area of the local authority concerned, for children of his age".
I do not know what "educational facilities" are. The Advisory Centre for Education—ACE—comments that there are no nationally agreed guidelines on what constitutes "educational facilities of a kind generally provided in schools".
This subsection appears to allow a child to be deemed to have a learning difficulty if his local ordinary school is inaccessible or if some aid which he needs is not available. I find it amazin, particularly in

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view of subsection (4) of the same clause, which was referred to by the Minister in her opening speech and also by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, that if the difficulty is solely one of language, which presumably leads to problems of communication, this is not a learning difficulty, yet if the problem is simply one of bricks and mortar—that is, access—it is a learning difficulty! I do not believe that this should be so in this day and age, and certainly not in the future. We must remember that we are legislating not only for today's children but for the children of the future.
The Government's new access clause, which includes educational buildings, and which was introduced into the Scotland Bill, was extremely welcome as it strengthened the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act. It was also included in the Disabled Persons (No. 2) Bill to cover England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That, too, was very welcome. However, I voiced my concern at the Committee stage, and I stress it again now, that in the case of educational buildings the attention of the developer is only going to be drawn to Design Note 18, not to the code of practice, BS 5810/1979, as well. This is very important, not only because some of the dimensions in the design note are less generous but because it does not mention the blind and the deaf, as does the code of practice. If provision is not made for them, it will be harder for them to get into ordinary schools. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to see her way to amending this in the Disabled Persons (No. 2) Bill, otherwise we shall have to try to do something in this Bill.
As the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, said, there is also a need to adapt existing school buildings. There will be very few new ones built in this day of falling school rolls. Therefore it is very important that we should try to cover this need. There are some excellent special schools as well as some which are much less good, and educationally undemanding and socially isolating. However, in all special schools, as the noble Baroness, Lady David, has said, the handicapped child is removed from the model of the ordinary child and can come to look at himself as being something outside the real world.
The noble Earl, Lord Swinton, made a fascinating speech and gave a very good example of a school where you can shuttle between the special and the ordinary school systems, as necessary. I think that is very valuable. For those who are going to be able to cope and compete in an adult world—and I fully accept that there are some who will not be able to—I feel that they will be best equipped to do so if they grow up among their able-bodied peers and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, said, this helps the latter to understand the handicapped. Some handicapped children may not be able to cope, but no child should be prevented from doing so simply because a building is unsuitable.
Then, Clause 2(3)(b) and (c) increase the difficulty. The noble Baroness, Lady David, has already spoken on the fact that the local education authority has a duty to secure that the child for whom they maintain a statement is educated in an ordinary school, provided that it is compatible with,
"(b) the provision of efficient education for the children with whom he will be educated; and
(c) the efficient use of resources.".
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I appreciate that in the Education Act 1980, Section 6, similar words are used concerning the duty of an LEA to comply with parents' expressed preference for a certain school. The words are:
"Unless it would prejudice the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources".
But this is something rather different because it concerns the choice of which school the child goes to within the ordinary school system. I imagine there is consideration of numbers in the school, distance to be travelled et cetera, whereas in this Bill we are concerned with the choice between education in a special school or in an ordinary school, and I think it is very doubtful if criteria exist whereby efficient education and efficient use of resources can be measured objectively for the purposes of this Bill.
My Lords, there is no such thing as equality. All men are not equal and all children are certainly not equal, but there is equal opportunity and all I am asking is that handicapped children who can cope should be given the same opportunity as their able-bodied peers to go to an ordinary school. Clauses 1 and 2 as they stand do not allow this. Clause 2(4) places a duty on every local education authority to keep under review the arrangements made by them for special educational provision. I think this would be very worthwhile if we could expand and strengthen this subsection and I do not think anyone has yet spoken about this. No serious advocate of integration supposes that integration can take place all at once and, in circumstances where it is difficult to do a lot straight away, it is all the more important that legislation should encourage local authorities to develop plans for what they hope to be able to do over a reasonable period of time. I think a process of planned and sensible integration would help to ensure that we could continue to move in the right direction. The Minister described the Bill as evolutionary rather than revolutionary, and I think satisfactory evolution needs planned evolution.
Parents of handicapped children should also have the same rights as parents of non-handicapped children. Quite a lot has been said about this already so I shall try to be as brief as possible. I should like to welcome the Government's amendment to Clause 5, which was moved in another place, whereby parents are allowed 29 instead of 15 days to make representations and submit written evidence re the proposed assessment, because I think that will be very valuable. But Clause 9 gives too much power to the local education authorities. It is they who will decide whether a parent's request for an assessment of a child for whom a statement is not maintained is unreasonable and it is they who will judge whether it is appropriate to make a re-assessment when parents of a child for whom they maintain a statement request it and I feel that it should not be the local education authority concerned which decides this.
I am glad that in Clause 9(2) the maximum period before a requested reassessment is carried out was reduced from 12 months to six months in another place, but I feel that it could possibly be even shorter, because six months is a long time in the life of a developing child.
In Schedule 1, Part 1, paragraph 2(4), there is a maximum penalty of £50 for parents who fail, without

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reasonable excuse, to comply with the requirements of a notice of assessment. I really do not think that is at all a good idea. Compulsion is likely to affect adversely the relationship between child, parent and professionals and is hardly likely to be in the child's best interests.
On the question of statements, the noble Lord, Lord Renton, the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, have already referred to the importance of the disclosure of statements, and the noble Baroness, Lady David, referred to the parent's right under the United States of America's Education of All Handicapped Children Act 1975, to examine all records relating to children's education, and to the fact that it is working well there. She also made a number of other interesting points on this which I fully support, as I do those of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I think it is terribly important that parents should have access to all the reports behind the statement because if they do not have that information it makes it difficult for them to decide whether or not to appeal against the LEA's decision and also it makes it very difficult for them to appeal successfully.
On the subject of appeals, the noble Countess, Lady Loudon, has already said that the parents of handicapped children should have the same rights of appeal as other parents have under the 1980 Education Act. Under Clause 8(4)(b), if an appeal committee does not confirm special educational provisions specified in a statement on a child, it can only remit the case to the LEA for reconsideration and it has neither the power to amend the statement nor the power to direct the LEA to cease to maintain it. I know that the Minister says one can always go to the Secretary of State, but it demands great stamina, determination and persistence on the part of the parent who has already been through all the other procedures first.
I said before that there is no such thing as equality, only of equal opportunity. The scales are weighted against the handicapped child and his family from the start, whether he is physically or sensorialy or mentally handicapped. I am delighted that the Minister said that the Government were keen to improve this Bill further in any way that was reasonable, and surely it is not too much to ask, in this International Year of Disabled People, that the handicapped child be given the same opportunities as his able-bodied contemporaries to be educated in an ordinary school and that the parents of handicapped children be given the same rights as those of able-bodied children.
6.57 p.m.
Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, like other noble Lords I welcome this Bill and offer my congratulations to my noble friend the Minister, Lady Young, and to the Secretary of State for Education for responding to the recommendations made in the report, of outstanding quality, on the special educational needs of children, so ably chaired by Mrs. Mary Warnock. I think the noble Baroness, Lady David, said that she gave only one cheer and afterwards she said that she gave a weaker second cheer. My Lords, I give three cheers.
I wish to speak for just one moment on the question of the under-fives. I should like again to congratulate my noble friend Lady Young, for considering and taking into account the needs of the under-fives and
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their families. However, I should like to ask her just one question in this realm. Under Clause 10, on page 8 of the Bill, the health authority must notify the parents and the Education Authority of a child's handicap. Children under five are mentioned in several clauses but I will not go into the number of clauses at the moment. However, I should say here that there is more than the Education Department that is responsible for offering a service to the under-fives. The Social Services Department offers a service in the form of day nurseries under the Health Service and Public Health Act. Day Centres are run by the social services department under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, and if the social services department are not notified of the number of handicapped children under five they are not in a position to provide the services. But I should say here—and I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, and my noble friend Lord Vaizey—that I agree there is need to delineate the differing roles and responsibilities of the various local government departments. While they are not properly defined and while they overlap, the local authority cannot offer a partnership to parents.
I now pass to the needs of the family. I have to say that when the Warnock Committee was set up I remember making a plea that, instead of being a report on the needs of handicapped children, it should be a report on the needs of handicapped children and their families.
Under Clause 1 the children who fall into the category of special needs in education are outlined, and I will not go into this. But I think the noble Baroness did refer to medical, educational and psychological needs. There are also the needs of the family. I cannot stress too strongly that unless the family is taken into account, both as a partner, and also having their needs, then we shall not get this right. If I may say so, there are some parents who can tolerate and can handle the most severely handicapped child. There are some parents who could not tolerate it and could not help the child. There are even some parents—it is just the way we are all made—who cannot even tolerate a mildly handicapped child and give that child the help it needs in the home. Therefore, I would have hoped that not only were the needs of the child taken into account but the needs of the family. Perhaps one of the saddest things to those of us who have worked with such families is the way in which in some families the concentration is all on the handicapped child to the detriment of the other children. Therefore, I would make the plea that not only the needs of the child are taken into account but the needs of the family.
I turn to special schools. I would very much support the noble Lord, Lord Renton, and the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, who said we cannot put into one compartment all handicapped children. The different grades and categories of handicap are done away with, but nevertheless there are still categories of children with special needs, and it is those special needs which have to be met. May I ask the Minister, under the heading of special schools, whether, for instance, parental choice plays a part here and whether parents are allowed to ask, under the assisted places scheme, for places in voluntary schools, privately-run schools for handicapped children. I think we have to

1023
achieve a balance. There are some children who need residential accommodation, some families who need residential accommodation. I worry—this has been said by other noble Lords—that, with the present cut-back, it could be that some local authorities would not want to use the special schools.
I should like to pass now to Clause 3. I feel deeply concerned over Clause 3, particularly in connection with the provision of special education otherwise than in schools. I suppose this must touch on home tuition, and it much touch on those children excluded from school by the head of the school, who has every right to exclude a child under the 1944 Education Act. I should like especially to refer to children suffering emotional disturbance which results in maladjustment and disruptive and difficult behaviour. These children are very often excluded from school, perhaps for non-attendance, perhaps because of their difficulties in school. They are sent home, and in order to comply with the 1944 Education Act peripatetic teachers are allocated to help such children in their own homes. Very often—I have experienced this in my own work—that amounts to perhaps one day or two days a week, leaving the parent to deal with the very difficult child, needing special help, kept at home for quite a considerable time.
I would here say that there is a very thin line drawn between children who are deemed ultimately maladjusted under the old Bill, who will under this Bill, I maintain, still need special educational help, and those children who appear before the juvenile court and are then sent to a children's home or a penal institution. There is a very fine line drawn, and I would hope that these children can be kept within the educational system and not within the penal system. I wonder whether the noble Baroness could look at this.
I am conscious of the fact that I am the sixteenth speaker, and I am rushing on. I would wish to say a word about the monitoring of this Bill when it becomes an Act. I cannot see how we are going to know whether this Act is a success unless in some way we monitor it. I am very conscious of this because the Children and Young Persons Act was passed in 1969, was not monitored, and is now by many people deemed a failure. I do not believe it is a failure, but I believe it was not properly monitored and therefore the lack of resources and the difficulties were never assessed for a very long time.
I wonder whether the noble Baroness the Minister would think that it would be a good thing for an annual report to be produced by every local authority, both the education and social services in conjunction with the health board, and that those reports should be perhaps submitted to the National Childrens Bureau; they have a large staff, are able to put things on computers, and have a great deal of experience of writing reports, doing research and producing recommendations. I speak with some feeling because I served on a committee dealing with handicapped, which was ultimately produced by the National Children's Bureau.
May I pass on to the question of social work service and counselling. Here again there is not a clearcut structure for giving counselling and advice to parents.
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Within the local authority there is the social service department with their social workers, administering the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, there is the schools social work service working within the education department. Their work does overlap, and I wonder whether the time has not come for us to look very clearly at what are the specific roles of each of the two departments and how they can dovetail rather than overlap.
If I may say a few words on parents as partners, several noble Lords have spoken about the question; I am bound to mention my own authority, Oxford. During pregnancy every young couple attends classes, and I mean both father and expectant mother. Together all through pregnancy they are attending what they laughingly call their classes. During that time there is a rapport established with the doctors at the hospital and with their doctor. If a handicapped child is born, there is this bond between the professionals and the parents, and it comes much more easily to inform immediately the parents of any difficulties that may occur. I believe that we need not make such a mountain out of the molehill of confidentiality. If the parents are treated as partners at every stage, there would not be any confidentiality. I speak again with feeling, because when one is submitting a report to the juvenile court on a child who appears before the court, for the magistrates to decide what to do about the child, one submits a full report which the magistrates must see.
Leading up to that, I cannot even remember submitting a report to the magistrates of which the parents did not know every detail because one had always consulted with them step by step all the way along the line. I know, for instance, that the Invalid Children's Aid Association would deplore the named person being the person to give details of confidentiality. I think that they are absolutely right because I believe profoundly that if there is a good relationship between the helping services, the doctors and the parents, then there is no confidentiality because every point will have been discussed at every milestone along the line.
In conclusion, I wish the Bill well. I think that there are certain matters that need to be altered to make it a good Bill. Once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for introducing it.
7.11 p.m.
Baroness Jeger: My Lords, it is a special pleasure to follow the wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, who speaks from such great experience of these problems. Indeed, during the whole of this debate we have heard in every speech wisdom, experience and concern. I should like to add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. She has brought to this place commonsense, humour and courage and this place will be the better for having her with us. I hope that we shall hear often from her. I was especially interested in her perspicacious reference to the language question in this Bill because I think that it is very important not to over-simplify the question of language. There are many children from other countries who are imitative and who are quickly seen to have picked up English. But that is quite different from having comprehension of a language for understanding the imagery and the references. I hope

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that all those who have to make decisions in these cases will bear in mind that we are not thinking just about a sort of "parrotability" but something much more significant, because "parrotability" can often cloud the child's real difficulties.
I should like to add my thanks to Mary Warnock and all those who worked on the report, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for the way in which she has explained it with her usual efficiency today. I look on this Bill as an attempt to bring the vision of the Warnock Report into some reality. However, there are two main things that worry me about it. The first is that there is not any money available. If noble Lords will look at the "Financial effects of the Bill" as set out in the Explanatory Memorandum, it states:
"The Bill…should not give rise to significant additional expenditure".
The noble Baroness explained that because of the falling birth rate we should be able to keep up with the present expenditure. But the purpose of the Bill is surely to improve on the present situation—not just to keep still.
Secondly, there is no date for its implementation. I refer noble Lords to page 14 of the Bill where it says:
"This Act shall come into force on such date as the Secretary of State may by order appoint and different dates may be appointed for different provisions or different purposes".
I find that very worrying because it makes us wonder how much longer many of these children will have to wait for these improved circumstances. Also, the fact that different parts of the Bill could be brought in on different dates makes me wonder—and perhaps the noble Baroness can set my mind at rest—whether there would not be some danger of a piecemeal approach rather than wholehearted dealing with the situation on a date which I am sure all of us in this House wish to be soon. We are talking about 20 per cent. of our children. Children do not wait year in and year out. They are growing all the time, and that is why there is a real urgency about this Bill. I am sure that the noble Baroness shares that view.
I was very interested to see the Warnock Report's approach to the subject. On page 5 it says that the goals of education are:
"first, to enlarge a child's knowledge, experience and imaginative understanding, and thus his awareness of moral values and capacity for enjoyment; and secondly, to enable him to enter the world after formal education is over as an active participant in society and a responsible contributor to it, capable of achieving as much independence as possible".
I think that that is a fine ideal, and those who work with handicapped children are giving a great service not only to the children but to the whole nation. It is a very difficult and demanding job. It means that we have not just to care for children but to try to maximise their potential, to find their growing points. It is very sensitive and difficult work for which I think a great deal of training needs to be undertaken. I shall come back to that matter again in connection with the financial provisions.
We have had a very full debate and so I wish to refer quickly to other points that we shall come back to in Committee. I share the anxiety of the noble Baroness who spoke about the question of educational facilities. I do not understand what is meant in Clause 1(2)(b) about "educational facilities". We are
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told that a child will come within this section:
"if…he suffers from a disability which either prevents or hinders him from making use of educational facilities".
Does that mean that he cannot get into a classroom? Does it mean that he has spina bifida or some other difficulty, so he cannot use the ordinary school lavatory? What are "educational facilities"? I hope that that can be spelt out more clearly, particularly with regard to access and what I would call the physical surroundings of the school, which I know in many cases are matters that prevent the child even attending the school.
In Clause 2(3)(c) one of the considerations about accepting a child for special education has to be:
"the efficient use of resources".
I am not sure how local education authorities are expected to interpret that, especially with the noble Baroness's right honourable friend the Minister for the Environment breathing down their neck and telling them to cut and cut and cut again. Who is to judge whether it is an efficient use of the financial resources of the local authority to provide for one handicapped child to go to an ordinary school at the cost of some improvements in access, or whether it would be more in keeping with Government thinking for the rates to be reduced by a halfpenny by that authority? It seems to me that we are putting on local authorities a very heavy and a contradictory burden.
Lower down on the same page, in subsection (5)(a), we see that the education authority must:
"use their best endeavours".
Noble Lords must feel that the English language is being misused here. That is the biggest excuse that anybody ever had for not doing anything about anything. Have we not all as children, not particularly disabled children, said, "I did my best". That is supposed to be the alibi for a multitude of sins and shortcomings. I hope that we can tighten that up. I wonder how good is "best". Let us try to get some guidance on that. While these education authorities are saying that they are doing their best within their guidelines of financial expenditure, I would remind your Lordships that the Government have allocated £3 million to the assisted places scheme so that the brightest and best of children can get specially good education. It seems to be in line with the Government's total philosophy that those who most need help, get help least.
I want to say a few words about teacher training. Now that we have a three-year course for normal teacher training it seems to me that there ought to be a considerable input of special training for disabled and handicapped children. When we talk about 20 per cent. of the nation's children, it must surely mean that within the course of an average teaching career the chances are that practically every teacher at some time is bound to come across a class in which there are one or two children who need special attention. In fact, if this Bill is to mean anything, that will certainly be the case.
However, again, this question of cost arises. I suppose it could be said that money is available for in-service training for it is built into the rate support grant, but there is no specific grant and, therefore, tonight

1027
we can have no confidence that money will be used for this purpose. I understand that under Section 62 of the 1944 Act the Secretary of State has power to regulate the content of teacher training, and we very much hope that that will happen.
References have already been made to the United States where some very good pioneering work in this field has been carried out, where positive efforts have been made to bring handicapped children into the regular classroom. To give one example, in 1972 the Colorado legislature earmarked 2 million dollars for in-service training of regular teachers to give them the extra skills and knowledge necessary, and those grants were repeated in later years. In Missouri and Georgia they have enacted legislation that, in order to become certified, all teachers much receive specific preparation in the techniques of how to work with handicapped students in regular classrooms. If this positive action is not taken, with the best intentions in the world, we could put many handicapped children at a disadvantage. You could have a classroom situation where it is not so much a question of the learning difficulties of the child, but a question of the teaching difficulties of the teacher. I am sure that they need this extra help.
The Warnock Report suggested that 200 full-time, or equivalent part-time, lecturers would be needed if we were to embark on a five-year programme of in-service teacher training to meet the demands set out in this Bill. It is against that sort of statement that I find it very difficult to make sense of the fact that apparently no extra financial provision is to be made. It could be that the integration, which we have discussed so fully today, could be looked on by some hard-up authorities as a cheap option and could actually harm children, both educationally and socially.
The noble Baroness referred to the falling rolls and to the fact that that means that we have a higher proportion of teachers to children. But it is no use having smaller classes if the teachers concerned are no good at their job or—and I do not want to sound critical—do not have the special skills to enable them to do their job. They are asked to deal with a great range of handicaps, and we are asking them to perform a very difficult and sensitive task; to keep the peace among a crowd of children, some normal, some abnormal, some naughtier than others and, let us be honest, some who can be unkind to each other, with elements of bullying and tension. Therefore, the fact of the numbers of teachers does not seem to me to answer the question.
Simply to place a handicapped child in a room full of normal children does not mean integration. No one should believe that it does. In passing this Bill—which I know we all wish to see passed as quickly as possible—I think that we have a great responsibility to enable it to take realistic effect and to ensure that it does what we hope it will do. But simply to economise—and this must be tempting in some areas—by closing down small special schools and saying, "It is all right because Parliament now says that all these poor children can go to the school down the road", and at the same time not to provide the extra teaching, the extra skills and all the supporting techniques that these children need, would be a disaster, and I know that your Lord-
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ships would not want to be a party to any such outcome of this Bill.
I am also very concerned about the position of the under-fives. I think that this must be the first time that an Education Bill has had to do with babies. A great deal of thought must be given to the way in which this will work out. The noble Baroness, Lady Faith-full, referred to the present difficulties in the town halls with the social services, the education services and the health services. I can see a danger of there being some confusion unless a great deal of careful thought is given to this problem. For instance, I am wondering whether the medical profession has been sufficiently brought into discussions, because it is very often the family doctor who sees the baby or the child, who may have been sent home from hospital apparently absolutely all right. Having been married to a marvellous general practitioner, I am the last person to criticise doctors, but we would be unrealistic if we did not accept that occasionally in a busy surgery, with a whining baby—and even Dr. Stone might say this—a doctor will say, "He will grow out of it, mother", or, as I have heard some doctors say, "There is nothing wrong with that baby; it is the neurotic mother who is the trouble. If only she would leave the baby alone, he would be all right". The family doctor has to be in the front line on this.
In many areas we find that attendance of mothers with young babies at post-natal clinics is dropping off badly. Let us face it, some of those clinics are boring enough places to visit. Often, when a doctor refers a child to hospital there is a long wait and then you see a different doctor every month, or however often you have to go. Unless, throughout the medical process, there is full co-operation with the education authorities, it will be rather difficult to make this work.
Having got the doctors to inform the education authority, the education authority is supposed to do what? If it does not have any money, what is it supposed to do? Here again, we must have further talks about how the resources are to be made available to do all that this Bill wants done. The awful truth is that although the Warnock Report said quite clearly on page 343:
"Nursery education for all children should be substantially increased as soon as possible",
we know that there is no increase taking place. In fact, the opposite is true. Local authorities are being pressed to economise, particularly in this sphere. They are closing down day nurseries and nursery school provision. There are staff leaving; posts being frozen; people not being replaced.
Again, if we are to make any real progress in this question of the under-fives we shall have to look at this sort of provision in a more realistic way. This is important because if a child lives with its handicap undiagnosed and untreated until it is five years old and until a school doctor or teacher picks it up, it has lost five of the most precious years, because the first five years of life are the years of the fastest growth. He can be set back for life through that early neglect. Therefore, I am so glad that this provision is in the Bill, and I hope the noble Baroness will not mind my expressing anxieties about its being implemented. It is because I am so glad that it is in the Bill that I want it to be fully carried out.

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There are all sorts of exciting things going on in different parts of the country at the present time, many of them threatened by financial stringency, which is most unfortunate at a time when I feel that the mood of this House and of the country is of increased concern about disabled and handicapped people; and today, of course, we are specially concerned with children. I hope that this Bill will have a speedy passage, but it is no good its having a speedy passage if there is no date put on to its implementation and if there is no money available to implement it. There will be certain points we shall want to come back to on Committee stage, but as we have had such a good, full and detailed debate, I propose not to go into any further detail at present. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept the sincerity on this side of the House. Many of us have worked together in the background from which this Bill has emerged, and we honestly want it to succeed. I believe she does too, and I hope she can give us some good news tonight so that we shall feel more confident about its future.
7.33 p.m.
Baroness Young: My Lords, we have had an important debate today and I very much appreciate the most constructive way in which the whole of the discussion has taken place. The House will I am sure understand if I do not answer all the points, although I hope to touch on many of the most important. I am particularly glad of the welcome that has been given by almost every Member of your Lordships' House who has spoken, some more warmly than others but everyone giving it a welcome.
I was particularly pleased at the support from my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox, who made a most moving maiden speech based from practical experience on both the joys and the problems of integration. It was interesting because I think she is the only Member of your Lordships' House who was handicapped as a child and actually had that particular experience. I was grateful too to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester, who spoke I believe not only on behalf of the Church of England but of all the churches, and to my noble friend Lord Renton for the support he gave from Mencap.
My noble friend Lord Swinton described what I thought was an excellent example of a special school. No wonder he was alarmed that we might all be queueing up to visit it, because clearly it is an up-to-date example illustrating the best of practice and equipment in this interesting world of special education. It followed very well when the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, said that the Bill was built up on the best practice She is quite right. That is precisely one of the cornerstones of the Bill. Before saying anything more, I should like to pay my tribute to the many professionals involved in education who do such a very good job day in, day out, for many years.
In the course of the last two years I have visited a lot of special schools. I have been particularly interested in preparation for this Bill and for the debate that we are having today. I have without exception been impressed not only by the variety of provision that is made—and we would be very mistaken to think that there is a kind of standard provision, because each authority has its own ideas—but also by the dedica-
1030
tion of the staff, and the numbers of examples I have seen with close parental involvement in the school with a very active and well supported parents' association.
Not surprisingly the main issues that have come out have been those that have been debated before: resources, integration, confidentiality, problems of the non-maintained and the independent schools, the question of the advisory committee, and the role of parents. I shall before concluding try to touch on all of those. Before I do I should like to deal with some quite specific points. The noble Lords, Lord Banks and Lord Renton, and the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, all referred to an amendment put down in another place towards the end of the proceedings in which the principle was that parents who have a handicapped child would be put in touch with a support organisation.
I was asked what the Government view was on this. We undertook in another place to consider whether it would be possible to introduce into the Bill a provision which would allow health authorities a degree of flexibility in how they approach such matters and how they decide which, if any, organisation might be able to help the parents. I should like to confirm that we are actively considering whether a meaningful amendment can still be made to the Bill.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester raised a point about religious education. In Clause 12(4) the wording is, "so far as practicable". This repeats the wording used in the 1944 Education Act, Section 33(4). The reference to practicability is because of the possible state of health of the child and not because of constraints imposed by timetable or the characteristics of the building. However, I shall read carefully what the right reverend Prelate said, and no doubt consider whether the Bill requires an amendment, but I think he will find that because it is a repetition of what is already in legislation it has stood the test of time very well.
My noble friend Lord Renton raised a number of points, but he asked about training for work in adult training centres and teacher training. At this time I have not got the figures available that he has asked for, but I shall look into the matter and write to him before the next stage, or at any rate while the Bill is proceeding. The noble Baroness, Lady David, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, raised a point about the school-leaving age. The 1944 Act looked forward to the raising of the minimum school leaving age to 16. Because we had neither the buildings nor the resources in 1947 to do this, the age was raised to 15 for most children but to 16 immediately in special schools, which obtained the benefit of the reform at once. When the school leaving age was raised to 16 much thought was given to the question as to whether it should be raised to 17 in special schools. But at that time the consensus of opinion was that the distinction between handicapped and other children should be removed. It has of course always been possible for children to stay on beyond the age of 16, and we have recently reiterated that it is the duty of local education authorities to provide for the 16 to 19 year olds if they are asked to do so.
My noble friend Lord Renwick raised a point about dyslexia. Of course I was interested in his remarks because he has this special association with children

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who suffer from what has been termed dyslexia. It is only right in our consideration of this Bill that we do not overlook the special educational needs of children with learning difficulties in reading, writing, spelling, or mathematics. We understand the pain and distress of a child who is neither lazy nor backward but who is unable to learn to read or write at the same pace as his peers, and that this is a proper cause for concern. I hope the Bill will lead to a more sensitive response to the individual educational needs of such children.
Several noble Lords raised the question of the monitoring of the Bill, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady David, and my noble friend Lady Faithfull. It might be helpful to the House to know that, with the abolition of statutory categories of handicap, this will remove the basis on which the DES currently collects statistics. But we have every intention of ensuring that future statistics will reflect the new, less simple view of handicap and acknowledge that children cannot simply be neatly categorised under one label.
Mrs. Warnock's committee proposed that the DES should collect statistics on a limited group with severe special needs—that is to say, for those for whom statements will be made—but encouraged LEAs to consider individually what information they might collect on the wider population with special educational needs as defined in Clause 1 of the Bill. Our view is that we agree with this division of responsibility, as we consider that the national information on the wider population would be very hard to collect and that the absence of common standards would make the drawing of conclusions from it very difficult indeed.
The noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, raised three interesting and very important points and I would tell him that of course we recognise the importance of defining the duties of the National Health Service, the local education authorities and the social services. But I think that what he was concerned about, as was my noble friend Lady Faithfull, was co-operation between the three arms that will be concerned with these children. This is often a matter of good practice. One has read enough reports where there has not been co-ordination to know that everything was there to make it right, yet it did not work because of failure on the part of the individuals or lack of good practice. We cannot of course legislate for that, but I am sure that we need always to bear in mind as we are considering the Bill that, while we can do what we can to create the right legal framework, we cannot ever legislate for good practice.
I turn to the major issues which no doubt we shall reconsider in Committee, and I must comment again on the question of resources and say how grateful I was to my noble friend Lord Vaizey for reminding us of the sums of money which are going into special education. I must remind your Lordships also that when the 1944 Act was introduced, no resources went with that, yet I think I can say without fear of contradiction from any noble Lord that that Act has had a most profound effect on education—quite the most profound effect since the earlier one of 1902. So I do not believe that, simply because in the Financial Memorandum we have not included large sums of money, we need think that nothing will happen.
I believe local authorities will take the resources
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they have and consider whether they are using them as wisely as they might or whether they could get better value for money. I believe they will, without a specific grant—because all the evidence we have shows this—maintain their expenditure on special education and children with special educational needs. I was myself in local government for a long time and I believe that those who are in local government and are concerned with children with special educational needs will not see integration as a cheap option; they will continue to be far too concerned about the needs of these children.
I confirm that the Government's expenditure plans reflected in the 1981–82 rate support grant settlement and the education grant-related expenditure calculations for each individual local authority take account of the additional expenditure demands imposed by these children—that is, those with special educational needs. LEAs are being given a new framework on which to reconstruct their service to children with special educational needs. They are not being asked to start from nothing. Far from it; they are asked to think very hard about the way they spend the very large sums which they control and the alternative ways in which the money might be spent to greater good.
That brings me to the whole question of falling rolls, a subject which was raised by a number of noble Lords, and I am conscious that some people are very worried that local authorities will immediately shut down a whole series of special schools. Not only did I indicate in my opening remarks that special schools will for the first time be subject to the same kind of provisions as ordinary schools are, and cannot be closed just like that, but we must recognise the fact that there will be (this is perhaps a good feature of the falling rolls) about 10,000 fewer children in the schools population with special educational needs. Of course, local authorities must look at these schools, as they would look at all their schools, to determine whether or not, given a certain size, it is appropriate that they should remain open or whether educationally it would be better if they closed.
This matter must be left for their determination, quite properly, but I would not want anybody to believe that LEAs were suddenly going to close a whole series of schools on some kind of whim; nor indeed are they able to do so. Furthermore, one other good piece of news is that medical advances in detecting potential disabilities before birth and in treating them are reducing the number of children whose problems are so serious as to require education in special schools, and there is likely to be a continuing tendency for LEAs to provide for special educational needs in ordinary schools.
I come to the question of integration, a subject raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jeger, the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, my noble friend Lord Renton, and my noble friend Lord Lucas (in his particular case about deaf children) among others. Clause 2 establishes a principle of integration and association which recognises certain factors which were not explicit in Section 10 of the 1976 Act, which will be repealed by the Bill. We start from the general proposition that children with special educational needs should be educated in association with other children. But the interests of the child must come first and we cannot accept that this principle should impose an

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unconditional duty on LEAs where they maintain statements for children. Indeed, I believe that the views expressed illustrated that; whereas my noble friends Lord Lucas and Lord Renton said there must be a case for special education for certain types of children with special disabilities, the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy (de Knayth), moved very strongly that most children should be in ordinary schools, where adequate provision could be made for them.
As we see this as an evolving situation, I believe we shall reach a position where there will still be a need for some special schools, but a larger number of handicapped children will be educated in ordinary schools. Most important, however, the Bill requires that account must be taken of parents' views. This is important because not all parents will in fact wish their children to be placed in an ordinary school, and, secondly, the needs of the child, as revealed by assessment, must be met by the proposed placements.
I know we shall have a great deal of discussion about parental access to professional reports. These matters were raised by the noble Lady, Lady Kinloss, and many others and I was grateful to my noble friend Lady Faithfull for the point she made describing the best practice on professional reports and that consideration should be given to the needs of the whole family. It is a key feature of the Bill that parents should be thoroughly involved from the outside in decisions about their child's education. They will have the right to attend their child's examinations, and thus they will have every opportunity to ask questions of the professionals concerned. The very disturbing example that my noble friend Lord Lucas gave was, if I may say so, an example of bad practice, where the parents had not had the opportunity to discuss what lay behind a decision. The Bill also provides parents with an absolute right of access to their child's statement, and of course to comment on that statement when it is in draft. The statement will be in a form prescribed by the Secretary of State, and will contain details of the LEA's assessment of the child's special educational needs.
The issue of confidentiality has been debated at length in another place and has been an area where we have sought to find an acceptable legislative response to the concerns felt by parents. We have given two undertakings: first, to make it clear in guidance which will follow the Bill that LEAs should be as frank as possible with parents, as frank as circumstances will permit, and should discuss fully what is going on; and, secondly, to consider whether there is a possiblity of improving the framework for communication of information to parents without damaging the interests of some children, or endangering the frankness of professional reports, by giving parents an absolute right of access to them. After all, what we need is the best of professional advice. We do not want the possibility that the advice is not written down, that it is inadequately passed on, because a professional will not agree to someone other than another professional seeing it. No doubt this is a matter to which we shall return at length in Committee.
I think that a number of noble Lords were confusing the issue of non-maintained special schools with that of independent schools catering for handicapped
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pupils. As I indicated in my opening remarks, so far as non-maintained special schools are concerned, under the regulations we shall be able to provide for parents and teachers on governing bodies and indeed for making the provisions as similar as possible to those for ordinary schools.
But the position about independent schools catering exclusively for children with special educational needs is rather different. We recognise a need to impose on independent schools wishing to cater for pupils with statements standards similar to those imposed upon other special schools. But as we indicated in our White Paper, it is not proposed to require such schools to establish governing bodies. In the context of the regulations we shall examine whether independent schools can be encouraged to establish advisory committees. But the fact is that it is not realistic to expect the proprietors of the majority of these schools to surrender control to governing bodies which they do not themselves appoint and which are independent of them. A governing body controlled by the proprietors' family will, not necessarily I fear, be the kind of governing body that we visualise over the whole range of governing bodies which we expect in the education service. We believe that the objective would be better achieved through regulations and by ensuring that local authorities have proper rights of access to these establishments. There is therefore a difference between independent schools and non-maintained special schools.
Finally, I wish to say a few words about the national advisory committee. This matter, too, was debated at great length in another place, and I am sure that we shall return to it. I am aware of the concern that has been expressed about the establishment of an advisory committee and the need to write an amendment into the Bill. I should like to reiterate what has been said in another place; namely, that an advisory committee can be established under the Secretary of State's general powers in the Education Act 1944. Indeed, an advisory committee on special education existed for more than 20 years prior to the establishment of the Warnock Committee. The Government have not set their face against the re-establishment of an advisory committee in the future, but we do not require specific powers in the present Bill to achieve that.
For the moment we consider that there is much progress to be made on the recommendations of the Warnock Committee itself. Against this background and in the light of the Government's general view against the desirability of establishing new Quangos, my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary offered to arrange a conference of voluntary bodies to discuss the implementation of the Bill. The offer still stands, and I am happy to reiterate it this evening. It seems to me to be one way to ensure that the collective voice of the voluntary bodies can be heard over a range of issues.
I am conscious that there are many points that I have not answered, but I believe that we have had a very constructive, as well as lengthy, debate, and I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. There can be few other places besides your Lordships' House where we could have had gathered together a high degree of personal experience and expertise.
In introducing the Bill I am very conscious of the fact

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that I have been greatly blessed in life. Not only do I enjoy good health myself, but I have had the privilege of having three normal, healthy children. I recognise that I am fortunate, and I am sure that those of us in such a position appreciate not only the very moving point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy (de Knayth), about those things that are loaded against children with handicaps from birth, but also the fact of how much more fortunate we are if we do not ourselves suffer from these handicaps. It is in that spirit that I commend the Bill to the House. It is offered as a contribution from the Government to the International Year of Disabled People. We want to see the Bill on the statute book as soon as possible, and we want to move as far as we can and as fast as we can towards the same true equality of opportunity for those children with special educational needs that we are providing for all the other children in our educational system.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ECC 22nd Report: Fruit and Vegetables Policy
7.56 p.m.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos rose to move, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on EEC fruit and vegetables policy (22nd Report, 147). The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This debate deals with the Report of Sub-Committee D on Fruit and Vegetables and, at the outset, I should like to thank all those who have helped in one way or another to produce it. The witnesses who are listed in the report were uniformly helpful, and their expertise was of great value to the committee. The House will have noted the minutes of their evidence. I think that one point should be made in this context; namely, that while it is not thought necessary at all times to hear all potential witnesses orally, we do appreciate written evidence, and we pay the most careful regard to it throughout our deliberations. The fact that witnesses are not called before the committee does not mean that their evidence is regarded as second-rate. It is of the first importance, and we appreciate it. We were also helped and guided by our specialist adviser, and finally I should like to thank all my noble friends on the committee who worked their way with great determination through what is a complicated maze.
The subject may not sound a highly exciting one, but I can assure the House that it is important and that its study brought to light some vital issues of principle.
Let me refer to the range of our inquiry, which covered the whole of the EEC's fruit and vegetables policy—and this deals with all fruits, vegetables and nuts grown in the Community, with the exception of potatoes, grapes and olives for pressing, and peas and field beans for animal feed. The objective of the policy is worth quoting because our aim was to see whether it is working successfully. The objective is:
"to achieve a balance between supply and demand at fair prices to the producer, account being taken of trade with third countries, while encouraging specialisation within the Community".
I would also draw attention to paragraph 2 of the report which points out that:
"in recent years fresh fruit and vegetable production has accounted for between 11 and 12 per cent. of total agricultural production in the Community".
We are therefore talking about a very substantial level of production and expenditure. As your Lordships will see on page 2 of the report, the expenditure in this field in 1980 was £443 million.
The House will note that the support system, which is dealt with in paragraphs 5 to 12, is complex in the extreme, and as we proceeded in our studies we were dismayed by our failure to obtain full information on a number of occasions. For example, it was alleged that many growers were growing for intervention prices, or for withdrawal—a very serious charge to make. The Ministry official's reply to Question 10 was that:
"it is very difficult to substantiate these statements absolutely".
Again, we were unable to find conclusive evidence to support the suggestion that national enforcement agencies were not effectively administering the control over the grading of fruit. Furthermore, the National Farmers' Union expressed concern about the failure to obtain information about certain imports. The committee are properly concerned about the harmful effect of these allegations, which cannot be substantiated.
Again, the committee are concerned about the subject of national aids. We discuss this in our recommendation in paragraph 64. It is impossible for this or any other committee of this House to decide whether competition is fair, whether prices are reasonable and whether the producer in this country is being fairly treated unless full information about the financial and other help which Governments give to the industry is freely available to the committee. I was under the impression that within the Common Market producers and consumers would receive fair and equal treatment. I was a strong supporter of entry into the Common Market on the basis that that would be the case. Furthermore, the EEC treaty itself, in Article 92, prohibits state aids, which would (and I quote)
"distort the competitive nature of the Community market".
Three members of the committee paid a visit to the Commission and had a discussion with Mr. Driesprong and other senior officials. We were received with great courtesy and kindness, and we were impressed with their great knowledge of the subject. On this question of state aid they could not assist us. Article 93 of the treaty instructs the Commission to compile a register of national aids in all sectors of the economy. The House will observe what the senior Ministry witness said in reply to Question 9 and Questions 261 and 262 in the report. Some details are given on pages 104 and 105, but they are very far short of the information contained in the 6,000 pages in the possession of Community officials, which we were told about and to which we had no access. Nor has anyone else access to them, for that matter. I leave the House to draw its own conclusions, but the committee view the position as being totally unsatisfactory.
Many witnesses, including the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, whose evidence greatly impressed the committee, said they believed that state aids to French apple growers might be important. Here, again, the

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lack of firm information made it impossible for them to substantiate their view. This will be of interest to the House, because noble Lords will recall the great public concern a few months ago about the imports of French Golden Delicious and their effect upon local produce, like Cox's Orange Pippins.
Paragraph 23 of our report will give some idea of the complexity of this area, but the Top Fruit Working Group and the Apple Industry Committee of the European Democratic Group came to the conclusion that the present support system is biased against the interests of British apple producers. The committee, after due consideration, decided to press the Commission to reduce the level of withdrawal prices for Golden Delicious so as to eliminate the unfair treatment of growers of other varieties of apples. The House will be interested to hear the Minister's view of this recommendation and any action the Government propose to take to help the local produce.
My Lords, I must make one further point; namely, that we were told that the marketing of British-grown produce—that is, apples, particularly—with respect to quality, grading and presentation leaves much to be desired, and that other EEC countries do these things much better than we do them here. We were further informed by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, among others, that steps are being taken to rectify the position, especially by apple growers, in the face of aggressive marketing by French producers. The committee believe this to be of the first importance. We are dealing with tough competition in this as in other markets, and we must make sure that our marketing and presentation are as good as theirs at every point and at every level. Again, I hope that the Minister, when he comes to reply, will comment on that. Is his right honourable friend satisfied with the progress that is being made to improve quality, grading and presentation?
On the question of the quality of produce, we were very concerned that national enforcement agencies have not got sufficient powers, and that a good deal of ungraded fruit finds its way on to the market, especially in France and in Italy. If noble Lords will look at page 103 of the report, they will see the numbers of inspectors in all the member states; but we were unable to find evidence of the effectiveness with which the controls are in fact administered. The House will note that we make a number of important recommendations, and I hope that the Minister will be abe to comment on them. I do not propose to weary the House by going into detail at this time of night, but I will mention some of them very briefly.
First, we believe that the withdrawal system should be kept under constant review and that the withdrawal price should be a safety net, and not offer a guaranteed market return. We were further impressed with the weight of evidence which suggests that the Community's import arrangements are unduly restrictive, and that it is unnecessary to tax out-of-season produce so heavily. We believe the consumer could be helped if that was looked at carefully.
The committee are also concerned that National Health regulations affected the ability of some United Kingdom food processors to compete effectively on our own home market. The answer to Question 275 gives some important information, and tells us that the
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matter is under review. We hope this will be carried out with dispatch, and perhaps, again, the Minister will tell us what progress has been made.
Our final recommendation deals with the system as a whole; that is, the complicated system which has grown up over the years on an ad hoc basis, with different policies emerging at different times until we have something approximating the Hampton Court Maze. When we try to envisage the further complications which will arise with a Community of 12, the mind boggles. Now is the time to revise the system with a view to simplification. As the committee say at the end of paragraph 74—and I think this is worth quoting:
"A revised system should give greater benefit to consumers, while preserving security for producers. In particular, it should seek to ensure access for out-of-season produce, and equality of treatment for Community processors.".
Before I conclude I must draw attention to paragraph 65 and the committee's conclusion that the Commission's policy has been of no significant benefit to the United Kingdom. The lack of full and precise information makes it impossible to go further than the words of this paragraph, but we cannot say that British producers have benefited in any substantial way. This is why a review of the kind the committee recommend is so important at this time.
My Lords, this report provides in microcosm a good example of the pitfalls into which the Commission tend to fall and out of which they always seem so reluctant to climb. But climb they must if the Community is to work efficiently in the interests of all its people—consumer, producer and processor alike. The Community's survival depends upon its capacity to adjust and upon its ability to change as circumstances demand. If it does not change and adjust, the Community will not survive at the end of the day—and so far it has not been notably successful in doing this. I hope the Government will press the officials in Brussels, and the Council of Ministers, to adopt the small but significant changes recommended in this report, which I now commend to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the Report of the European Communities Committee on EEC fruit and vegetables policy (22nd Report, H.L. 147). —(Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos.)
8.9 p.m.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, first, I should like to say as a member of the committee that I have greatly enjoyed the work on it, particularly in sitting under the chairmanship of the admirable and noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos. I think he has given your Lordships a very fair summing up of the views of the committee, and I think he has put to the House a very necessary matter—that is, the basic objectives of the CAP. Of course, the basic objectives are that producers should get a fair living, that consumers should get food at a reasonable price and that the food supply for the Community should be assured. I think that these are very fair objectives; and the Community has chosen to implement them, really, by a protective system of the control of imports and of help to the producers to produce food at a reasonable price.

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My area of disagreement with the committee—I have the chairman's permission to express my views on this—is that it does not take fully into account the essential objectives of the common agricultural policy. I disagree with the committee when it says that imports are unreasonably restrictive. Bacfid, Frucom, the Food Manufacturers' Federation, the National Federation of Fruit and Potato Trades and others all gave similar evidence; that they thought imports were restricted too much, particularly some varieties which they felt could be freely let in without any tariff or reference price because the other members of the Community did not grow this particular produce at that time.
In a way this is a fair point, but it is a fallacy because if the Community's policy is going to protect the grower it must also protect against massive imports of low-priced substitutes for fruits which are grown in the Community. I think it is perfectly fair for the Community to impose levies and tariffs on other fruits not grown in the Community if there is a flood of them, which could wholly divert the public to cheaper imported fruits and thereby affect very seriously produce from Community growers.
I must declare an interest, because I grow soft fruit in Scotland, but the Scottish NFU put forward what I thought was very conclusive evidence to the Committee and to the Government concerning the import through Dutch sources of pulp from eastern Europe at prices which were way below the cost of production. As we know, this is a regular device used by eastern European countries to obtain foreign currency. When we are looking at these matters we must take account of the general policy, which is to hold up returns to consumers, to keep up their standards of living, by reference to the market. We have to accept that this is what is done on the Continent and what has been done on the Continent for years. We are only a fraction of the EEC and therefore we have to think in terms of the Community as a whole. This is the essence of the CAP as it develops; that we are being far too nationalistic in our approach, but we are by no means the worse culprits. I believe it is well recognised that the French producers look to their own interests in an extremely clever and admirable manner, but they do not do very much good to the whole feeling of Community spirit. What the chairman of the Committee said was absolutely true; the Commission told us that they have a large amount of information on national aids but it was confidential and the only way that they could get it from certain countries was by promising to keep it confidential. That is no way to run the Community. Unless we start rationalising the national aids we are going to get nowhere. We have a great deal of evidence to suggest that our suspicions might have been well-founded; that national aids were being given which were not in the spirit of the Community and which where cutting across the Community's purposes.
I believe we have to improve our aim towards the market. We had a lovely illustration of this when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, came to the Box in an earlier debate about soft fruit and waxed lyrical about the crunchiness of Cox's Orange Pippins. That was probably the best piece of advertising one could have, and we should have broadcast that particular speech by the noble Lord to promote the sale of
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Cox's Orange Pippins on their merits. As the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, said we have fallen behind in the marketing of our excellent produce. We should always be able to sell quality and any aids that we are suggesting the EEC should give should take the line of helping the marketing of our fruits.
With regard to the withdrawal system, I believe it is full of pitfalls. The withdrawal system—in other words, the selling to the board of potatoes at a guaranteed price—could lead to people in this country quite happily growing for the board to take over. In the days before the board took over people were growing for the Government to take over and this was absolute nonsense. As the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, said, we must set any withdrawal price at a level which simply encourages it off the market and is of some small help to the producer. In vegetable growing we all know that for centuries people have realised that in times of blight one often has to plough down a field of cauliflowers, for example, and I believe that in the main aid should go into marketing, processing, and other methods of helping the producer.
With the expansion of the Community into Mediterranean countries, we have to watch in particular that the withdrawal system does not become a source of income and, indeed, abuse. We have already a complicated case in Italy concerning tomato concentrate, and I do feel that we ought to watch these affairs, particularly in some of the Mediterranean countries where the Civil Service is not as strong as the one that we have in our country and where the administration of such schemes can lead to abuse. I commend the report to your Lordships with slight qualifications. It highlights a situation which is highly dangerous and gives a warning of simplification and it is one that the Council of Ministers, who really have the power rather than the Commission, would do well to heed.
8.18 p.m.
The Earl of Selborne: I should first like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, and his committee for this excellent report. It has drawn attention to an area of the common agricultural policy which is well overdue to receive further illumination. This report is fully of extremely valuable information, be it statistical or otherwise, and full of information which is in some senses sometimes even surprising. I was grateful to the committee for giving me the opportunity, as an apple-grower, to give evidence as a witness. I was most grateful for the courteous way in which my evidence was heard. Having read this report with, as your Lordships might imagine, great care, there are two points which I found to be spelt out with great clarity and which must be quite self-evident. First, the EEC's present support system for fruit and vegetables is strangely complicated.
The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, referred to the Hampton Court Maze and I think that describes the system very aptly, because the procedures are almost inpenetrable to anyone who might try to take an informed view of them. I do not believe that I need say any more about that because the report itself emphasises that any support system which is so complicated is by its nature likely to be poorly communicated and will probably give rise to many of the fears which exist

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among various sectors of horticulture and marketing to the effect that our competitors are pulling a fast one. If one does not understand the system, one is inevitably going to feel that more than might otherwise be the case.
Secondly—and this is perhaps the most important point to make tonight—this support system is not suitable for the United Kingdom. It is not designed for our requirements, neither for our consumers, nor for our producers and certainly not for the taxpayer. The figures in the report (which I have not seen before) certainly deserve to be repeated. The cost (calculated in the report) to the United Kingdom of this particular branch of the CAP is £79 million. The report refers to the year 1980. The sums received back from this particular support system are £1 million and the net budgetary deficit is £78 million—which is a fairly startling figure bearing in mind that horticulture (and apples and fruit and vegetables are what we are talking about tonight) is a not inconsiderable part of our own production and represents about 10 per cent., so far as I can ascertain, of the production of fruit and vegetables in the EEC. So we receive one quarter of 1 per cent. of the expenditure in this sector in return for producing 10 per cent. If that does not, on the face of it, appear to be an imbalance, then, surely, that would be a strange case to argue.
You may say that that is probably because we do not need support in this country but, again, the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, and the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, have referred already to the extremely difficult situation in which various branches of horticulture find themselves. I refer to apply growers but also to the vegetable growers who argue, equally strongly, that if support is to be given within the EEC then, surely, a more equitable system could be devised which would give us more than a quarter of 1 per cent. if we are to produce 10 per cent. of the product. This is something which I am sure that my noble friend the Minister would wish to refer to.
The strange thing is, as the report points out, that since our entry into the EEC, a totally distorted support system has got rather worse. There was the Mediterranean package of 1978 which produced production aid which, by its very name, obviously was not serving the interests of our producers. The Ministry witnesses, I see, suggest that it might have helped the consumer in some sense but I am certainly not persuaded of that. The argument was that the consumer could already buy, for instance, canned peaches at a certain price. If that consumer wanted to buy Italian peaches, then a subsidy would be given to the Italian processor and this would bring down the price of Italian peaches so that she could buy Italian peaches as well as peaches from another country. Quite frankly, the consumer was not greatly benefited except that there was a choice of two different sources of canned peach. When you bear in mind that these processing premiums absorb two-thirds of the expenditure that we are looking at today, then one suspects that really this is a system of support very largely designed for southern Europe that is, Italy and Southern France. Again, statistics would show that where it goes to supports this very strongly. Obviously, this Mediterranean package has no relevance whatsoever to us. Also, the export refunds which are available both
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for production and for processing are again, as the report demonstrates, of little relevance.
It is true that export refunds were at one time of a certain significance for processed products. That was when (as the report points out very clearly) the price of sugar on the world market was rather lower. Now that it is higher, there is no need to give an export refund on processed fruits which have a high sugar content; so that export refunds are really of no significance to the United Kingdom any more. But again there is a great relevance to those sectors of horticulture in the Common Market which are export-orientated and, of course, again we look to the exports of the Golden Delicious or the Italian tomatoes which have traditionally been exported, not just round Europe where export refunds would not be appropriate within the Common Market, but into third countries around the world.
Fair enough. They are doing an extremely efficient job in marketing their horticultural produce into these markets, but, let us make no mistake about it, when you come to assess the benefits which can be derived from export refunds and add it to the total package, at least to underpin the amount of income you would be guaranteed to get from EEC funds, it is a significant factor. The reason in top fruit, for example, why we are not exporters is because we have traditionally always been importing fruit from round the world; we are growing a rather specialised variety, low yield, high quality, and again this is certainly a difficult product to sell; although by no means impossible, as apple growers, by their expert marketing in many fields, have demonstrated. But I do not think it is realistic to expect export refunds from this sector to be very relevant to our requirements either for the processed products in future or in the fresh sector.
That, lastly, leaves the sectors we are looking at. If the Mediterranean package and the export refunds are of little relevance, that leaves the withdrawal payments which are paid to the producer. Again, I repeat the figures which I mentioned before: 10 per cent. production or thereabouts of fruit and vegetables. But in practice, while Italy takes 60 per cent. of these withdrawal payments, Holland 15 per cent., France 13 per cent., Belgium 6 per cent, Germany 3 per cent., we take 1 per cent. Again, page 102 of the report demonstrates that that goes half to cauliflowers and half to apples. So it is clearly the case: either English growers are not availing themselves very largely of these withdrawal payments or they are inappropriate, they are not designed to the needs of the producers. I cannot speak for cauliflowers. I think that probably we do reasonably well out of those. We seem to get a large share, anyway, of that expenditure; but for the top fruit we do not.
The committee spent some time exploring the reason why it was that these systems of support appeared to favour Golden Delicious and the South of France more than production in Northern Europe. The basic fault, from our point of view, is that the system of intervention supports a high-yielding variety because it is paid by kilo and not by hectare. Also, to add insult to injury, because you may say that there is no harm in supporting people with high yields, it rewards those who grow the larger fruit. That, if you think about it, is totally illogical. If there was some merit

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in growing a large apple or a large tomato or whatever, then by all means reward it; but, on the other hand, the discriminating consumer will tell you that if you want shelf life, if you want flavour, you do not go for the balloon which will break down, you go for the smaller apple. We happen to grow a smaller apple, we happen to grow apples which are lower yielding, we happen to grow apples which command a considerable premium in the market and, incidentally, I am able to assure the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, that the premium has increased over the last year, thanks to the success of marketing initiatives.
When you look at the level of support per hectare, because this leads back to the farm in Southern France, add to that the assurance which is available from export refunds bearing in mind that horticultural production by its nature is a chancy business if you can underwrite a large proportion of your direct costs, then it is of enormous advantage. The more risk you have, the less sure you are of your income year to year, so the greater has to be your margin for contingency. It is a case that, while I would not necessarily claim that people in the South of France are growing year by year for profit as fruit producers, they are, nevertheless, assured from all sources—I am talking specifically at the moment of sources from the EEC—of a very reasonable return on their direct costs. I repeat that they may not be getting a profit, but, equally, they are very little at risk.
This is the basic reason why production of top fruit, particularly in Europe, is moving inextricably Southwards. It is not just the British producers who are complaining. It is also the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans and even the Northern French who are all complaining that they are finding it impossible to stave off the floods of imports from the Mediterranean countries who, in turn, are apparently able to assure themselves of a much larger return from the various support systems. This makes me quite certain in my own mind that the package which the CAP have put forward over many years through many modifications is totally inappropriate for the consumer in Europe. It may be all right for the consumer in the South of Europe. It is certainly not appropriate for our consumer and certainly not appropriate for our producer. I think it is reasonable to ask of the Community from time to time if the long-term interests of the consumer were any way being advanced by their policies. Obviously, what is happening at the moment is that the choice which the consumer is afforded in the shops is being reduced. It is exactly the same as happened in North America ten years ago. As production moved to Washington state—which was the higher yielding, blander (if you like; that is the kindest description I can give to a Golden Delicious)—so the quality varieties in North America from New England, Virginia, disappeared from the supermarkets. This is happening in Europe, in Northern France; it is happening in England and it is happening in the Low Countries.
In England we complain about the loss of the share of the market for Cox and Bramley. In Holland you will hear the same story of Belle de Boskoop and in Denmark Ingrid Marie, and so on. What system of support would we, both as a United Kingdom consumer
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and producer, find more to our requirements? The intervention system should, I suggest, be phased out—and quickly—for all it has done is to keep in production varieties which are apparently in surplus year after year. Restructuring grants, the committee have pointed out, are overdue. They are certainly overdue in this country in the sense that restructuring is required. The age profile of the orchard is dangerously high. This is a point made by the Ministry, and I would entirely agree. I should declare here my interest as a fruit nurseryman.
Nevertheless, it is true that if we are to keep in plant some of the varieties which I suspect we can quite easily demonstrate are greatly desired in our markets, then we will need help in making sure that these varieties are put back into plant. I suggest that this would be a much more appropriate use for funds than the present system of intervention which seems to keep in plant unwanted varieties.
It will obviously be very difficult for a decision to be made as to which varieties should qualify for restructuring and which should not. It certainly would not be a job for a producer, let alone a nurseryman, to say which those varieties should be. I would ask the consumer. The consumer is vociferous in respect of his or her interests in top fruit. One saw this last season when there was so much interest in the so-called "apple war". I would think that it would be just as easy to discriminate in favour of one variety as it is, for instance, in hops, where there is income support on an acreage basis and by variety. There is a precedent and the problem is not insuperable.
Lastly, on national aid—and I must not speak any longer—I heartily agree with the committee when it says that the distrust and suspicion engendered by unsubstantiated allegations is not conducive to the harmonious development of the European Community. I made allegations as a witness which I was unable to substantiate. Of course, when one hears from the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, that the Commission may have this information but it is confidential and they will not allow the committee to see it, let alone a grower such as myself, it is not surprising that I find it somewhat difficult to substantiate. This is surely a situation which is totally unacceptable to all those in this House and in this country.
The people who are most in support of the Common Market should be the most vociferous in demanding that we are told specifically what national aid is available. We shall be told no doubt that it is complicated; that we have much assistance; that we are de-rated as farmers; we get free advice from ADAS and we get capital grants. All that is quite true. It may even be—if we move away from horticulture for a moment—that in some commodities it might be embarrassing to find the assistance that we get is perhaps in some respects equal or better than that available to our competitors.
That matters not a bit to me. I am sure that we should know and if we find that we are getting more assistance than we have given ourselves credit for, then we as producers should stop bleating. Where we are able to quantify, it will have to be an accurate assessment going back over a number of years in a perennial crop or a crop with a high capital input such

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as glasshouses. Where one can quantify if there has been a distortion over a number of years, as there will be when one starts with subsidised capital, then we should know and the Commission should accept that they have a responsibility to redress the distortion which they have caused.
I end by saying how much I welcome this report. It has shown that in this sector we are getting a particularly poor deal in a funding of a budget which we all recognise is seriously distorted. This may be only 6 per cent. of CAP but perhaps it is a microcosm of something which is basically unsatisfactory in so many other spheres. Let us hope that when the Minister speaks he will be able to tell us clearly what it is in the long run that we should like to see in the form of an income support system for fruit and vegetables.
8.35 p.m.
Viscount Sidmouth: My Lords, the report being debated today sets out details of the European Community régime for fruit and vegetables which appear somewhat complex. I believe that this applies mainly to details such as the method of calculating withdrawal price set out in Table 1 which I for one would certainly not pretend to understand at all. In essence, however, I believe that the régime merits the description of being "light" which was applied to it by the Ministry of Agriculture in giving their evidence, at least as compared with the Common Agricultural Policy as a whole. The reason is that from the very first the Community has been in effect self-sufficient in these commodities, with the exception of tropical fruits and some temperate produce out of season. Extension to the south, now in progress, will enhance this situation. There has been no need therefore for target prices calculated to stimulate production, and although there have been surpluses, the perishable nature of the produce has ensured that there have been no tomato or cauliflower mountains.
Thus late in the day, I would draw attention to three aspects of the subject. First, "state aids" dealt with in paragraph 57 of the report. As I understand it, these are not in themselves excluded by Article 92 of the treaty, and are certainly tolerated—indeed encouraged—by the Community itself in certain directions. I refer to such matters as research, help for hill farmers, measures for energy saving and the like. Article 93 of the treaty requires that all such aids should be monitored by the Commission, and no doubt there will be room in the future for their "harmonisation "—that great Brussels word. It must be recognised however that most industrialised states, such as ours, have vast urban populations who must be fed but who do not themselves produce food. In an emergency, all Governments would prefer that these people should be dependent for their food upon home producers, who are politically more controllable than foreigners, and can be counted upon to co-operate.
It is a different matter when state aids directly favour exports to another member of the Community, and when this occurs, such exports should be regarded as being more in the nature of dumping, which has always been condemned in international trade. The report makes reference to two such cases in paragraphs 57 and 58. In the second case quoted, that of
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the Dutch gas price, the Minister of Agriculture has acted since the report was printed to give temporary help to British glasshouse producers—for which the industry is most grateful—but of course the problem still remains.
Secondly, there is the question of consumer prices. Mindful of its remit, the committee endeavoured to establish how the CAP had affected these so far as fruit and vegetables are concerned. The Ministry of Agriculture was unable to help in this matter, for the very good reason that after eight years in the Community, no one could now tell what the level of prices in the United Kingdom would have been had we not been in the Community. It is thus a hypothetical question to ask how they would compare with the level of prices actually prevailing. This does not prevent critics of the Community hazarding a guess, and in the debate in your Lordships' House last week one speaker is on record as attributing to the CAP a 10·2 per cent. increase in our cost of living. However that figure was arrived at, I have no doubt that it cannot be applied to fruit and vegetables. Paragraph 61 of the report quotes British growers (of whom I am one) as maintaining:
"that prices are under pressure, sometimes severe pressure, from imports and that the régime has worked to the advantage of the consumer. They may well be right".
Certainly the annual cost to the EEC of the fruit and vegetable régime in the United Kingdom (paragraph 54) at £1 million is truly negligible when compared, say, to the proceeds of the tariff which, as the noble Earl, Lord Selbourne, has remarked, is estimated at £79 million. But in the meantime the area in this country devoted to horticulture has been, and is, declining and so is the net annual income of the growers. If I may quote the Motion for a resolution on the common agricultural policy which was recently submitted to the European Parliament by their Agricultural Committee, chaired by Sir Henry Plumb, it is accepted as a matter of principle that—
"The aim of insuring adequate supplies of foodstuffs to consumers at reasonable prices has been attained in recent years to a greater extent that the other aim of the common agricultural policy, which is to enable farmers to participate in the general growth of earnings".
Finally, there is the question of overseas aid. Many of the ACP countries affected by the Lomé concessions, especially in Africa, are very interested in the supply of tropical fruits and the out-of-season temperate fruits and vegetables to which I referred earlier, and have the capacity to supply them. While I agree entirely with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, about competition within the horticultural market itself between one type of produce and another, I also feel that so far as imports are concerned this should apply mainly to imports from other developed countries. After many years of direct involvement in this particular matter, I have seen for myself how much better trade is than aid for the developing countries, and I would commend the Lomé initiative and what it has already achieved.
8.42 p.m.
Lord Sainsbury: My Lords, the EEC fruit and vegetable policy has never been the subject of inquiry by the Select Committee as a separate issue. This

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fact alone makes the report of some significance. However, the budgetary cost of this policy is not small. In terms of expenditure by the European Agricultural Guidance and Guaranteed Fund, fruit and vegetable is the fifth largest category receiving support. This puts the policy into perspective rather more clearly than saying that fruit and vegetables take roughly 5 per cent. of the total EEC price support.
The policy itself, as the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, has already stated, covering both fresh and processed produce, is aimed at achieving
"a balance between supply and demand at fair prices to the producer, account being taken of trade with third countries, while encouraging specialisation within the Community".
In other words, the price support system is designed to give varying degrees of protection to Community producers. The question is: How far is the policy suited to the Community's production of fresh fruit and vegetables and to the needs of the consumer?
As your Lordships will appreciate, Community production, because of the climate and the changes in the seasons, cannot meet consumer demand all the year round; yet third countries are subject to import tariffs under the EEC fruit and vegetable policy. In 1978–79, the Community imported from third countries and associated states 12 per cent. of its vegetable consumption, 66 per cent. of its citrus fruit consumption and one-third of its consumption of other fruits, according to the submission from the consumers in the European Community Group.
As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, we rely more heavily than the EEC as a whole on third country imports. In view of this reliance on imports these tariffs are difficult to justify, particularly where there are levies on products which are not grown in the Community or whose season is over. For example, a 20 per cent. tariff is imposed on imports of bananas: yet none are grown in the EEC. Peaches are produced only during July and August but imports are taxed, when there is no EEC production. In the report the committee conclude that there is no need to tax out-of-season produce so heavily. Such import arrangements are unduly restrictive. The import tariff should be reduced, if not removed, when Community production cannot meet off-season demand or where there is a low self-sufficiency ratio.
The other main plank of the policy for fruit and vegetables has already been referred to; namely, the withdrawal system—the equivalent of intervention for other commodities. It removes surplus produce from the market to maintain a pre-determined price for the produce in times of glut. This policy has been the subject of much criticism. Many assertions have been made of producers deliberately growing for withdrawal, but the Ministry of Agriculture in their evidence said that this was very difficult to prove or disprove. It is a fact, though, that the greater proportion of this withdrawn produce is destroyed and is unavailable for human consumption, even though it is of marketable quality. In 1978–79, the cost of withdrawal for the nine products amounted to nearly £42 million. It is hard to believe that more of this produce is not suitable for processing by freezing or canning.
The committee heard evidence that led them to conclude that the withdrawal system should be kept under
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review, offering only a safety net. The National Federation of Fruit and Potato Trades in their evidence called for a freeze on withdrawal prices. Others advocated that the system be phased out over a period of five years. In the case of apples, the National Farmers' Union believed that withdrawal should be abolished as it is the only fruit that is in structural surplus. One witness asked in evidence: Could not the expenditure involved in the withdrawal system be directed towards marketing and the consumption of produce in abundance? It is not better use of resources to encourage consumers to eat more fruit and vegetables?
May I turn to what, in my view, is the most important aspect of fruit and vegetable policy; that is, quality standards? The evidence we heard in committee led to the conclusion that Community policy has not been of significant benefit to the United Kingdom. However, improvements in marketing and the maintenance of consistent standards and presentation are the means of improving Britain's competitiveness. Early this year, after visiting Nine Elms fruit and vegetable market, one of the Minister of Agriculture's marketing advisers stated at the Oxford farming conference that the tattered lettuce was British, all the dirty celery was British and even the English Cox's apples seemed very second-rate against the Dutch imports. The lady in question may have been unlucky in her experience. However, it is generally recognised that it is easier to control quality and freshness when produce is for export.
We have to realise that the marketing efforts of our European competitors are of a very high standard. Besides this, there has been the revolution in long-distance haulage of fresh produce, with containerisation, refrigeration and the development of the roll-on/ roll-off ferry links, which enables continental produce not only to arrive in good condition, but to reach the market nearly as quickly as United Kingdom produce. The intensity of competition from imports has grown since our entry into the Community. Our United Kingdom marketing system needs to respond both to competition and to the needs of the consumer. There is now a trend among consumers away from value for money measured in terms of greatest volume for the lowest price, towards value for money in quality-for-price terms. We need to meet this in the home market by raising standards.
I appreciate that I have not covered all the points raised in the report; for example, the lack of sufficient data and information on national aids, which has already been referred to by several speakers, as well as the inequality of treatment between individual growers and producer groups and the important subject of enforcement. They have been covered by other speakers and I have already spoken for too long. I realise that I have made a dull speech, but it is difficult to go into flights of oratory on what is a complex subject; namely, the study and understanding of the Community's régime for fruit and vegetables. I hope that I have at least shed a little light rather than darkness, and that the report will serve a useful purpose.
8.55 p.m.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: My Lords, I shall be very brief, indeed, because so much has already been

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said with which I entirely agree. But I should like very much to pay my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, for the way in which he conducted his committee. I know of no other chairman who gets so much information out of people who come and give evidence as he does, and all the evidence which is printed in this report is fascinating and very useful for the Minister and for our Department of Agriculture. I should also like to say that the evidence given by my noble friend Lord Selborne, which is printed on page 21, was one of the most important moments in our committee, because he speaks with such authority. Not only he, but his father and, I think, his grandfather, too, have been responsible for growing apples in this country.
I should like to underline one or two points very quickly indeed. The question of withdrawal prices, which we stressed, should be watched very carefully. French Golden Delicious can be withdrawn which, in consequence, means that far more are grown than are needed. I agree with the National Farmers' Union that continuing to encourage the growing of apples in France, when they are not wanted, simply adds to the complications of the trade. In paragraph 54, we point out that the common agricultural policy spends £443 million on fruit and vegetables and that the United Kingdom gets slightly less than one-quarter of 1 per cent. of that, which amounts to £1 million. On the other hand, the customs duties that we pay amount to £79 million. So that the United Kingdom pays out £78 million net, which seems a very large sum.
We questioned what state aids were being provided in other EEC countries and, as noble Lords have said tonight, we were met with very unsatisfactory answers and far too much secrecy. We all know that very strong aids are being given in France, in Belgium, in Germany and in the Netherlands, which falsifies to some extent the cost of production vis-à-vis the British who do not give these great aids. I am very strongly in favour of getting more information from countries—and I think that the EEC has every right to ask for it—rather than that all this should be kept secret.
We in this country know what a devastating blow the rise in fuel prices has been to our glasshouse industry. In the Clyde Valley in Scotland, which I know quite well, there are big centres which used to grow tomatoes and fruit in glasshouses. Today, those glasshouses are used only in the spring and summer, when they are unheated, and not at all in the winter. On page 35, there is quite interesting and important evidence, which I commend to the Minister, from the National Farmers' Union of Scotland on the devastating effect of the high rise of production costs in the glasshouse industry. If we cannot get the other EEC countries to declare what they are spending on these subsidies, I think that we could ask the Government to look at the situation in this country, because we have unfair competition from Europe.
In paragraph 65, we point out that the United Kingdom has not benefited very much from the policy of the EEC on fruit and vegetables. This is before the advent of the new countries—Spain and Greece, in particular—which produce fruit and vegetables. We should take this very seriously. If we are going to take some action—and I hope that we are—we should
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take it as quickly as possible, because we are going to be caught up in a network of complications the moment these other countries come in. This is something which the people in Brussels ought to look at immediately. I hope that our Government are well aware of the problems. Our Secretary of State, Mr. Walker, and our Minister of State, my noble friend Lord Ferrers, are both practical people who really know about the importance of these matters. I urge upon them very much that the time to take action is now, before the position gets any worse. If we can do that, we shall be doing something which is of value for this important part of the agricultural industry.
9 p.m.
Lord Peart: My Lords, before speaking to my notes, may I pay a tribute to my noble friend Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos. I knew him when he was Minister of Agriculture. He did so much for the farming industry in the Community at that time. His introduction of the Committee's report was admirable. I pay a real tribute to him in the best sense. I am very proud of him. I want to thank my noble friend and his Committee for all the work that they have done. It is not an easy subject. It is different from the larger aspects of the common agricultural policy. Like any other policy, it has its deficiencies. Nevertheless, when you wade through the statistics you see how difficult a subject it is.
I should like to stress the importance of the Committee's recommendations in paragraphs 63 and 64. The Committee have expressed their opinions on, first, allegations of unfair competition, causing distrust in the Community; secondly, the problems of intervention and withdrawal; thirdly, the need to enforce quality standards and to monitor imports; and, fourth, the need for better marketing.
This is one of the problems which we have to face. It is no good always blaming the foreigner or the Community. We must look at ourselves. I am not now one of those who always blame the Community and wishes to destroy it. As an agriculture Minister, I changed my mind a long time ago. As we are in the Community, I believe that we must make it work. It would be very wrong of us to think otherwise.
I would refer to the importance of the views of the National Farmers' Union. Most noble Lords will have seen their views in the report which has been put before them. It is an important document. The union are concerned not only about producers. They are concerned also about those who are employed in agriculture and horticulture. More Government aid is needed for research for good varieties and good produce. There is also a need for good presentation and marketing.
As this is such an important question, may I ask the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, what the Government are doing about both. We have got to put our own house in order. If we are to compete successfully in the Community we must be efficient. I should be grateful if the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, could endorse this. If he cannot do so tonight in detail, no doubt he will be able to write to me.
Both noble Viscounts mentioned the produce of Spain, Portugal and Greece now that they are members of the Community. We accept that this will create

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difficulties, but now that they are in the Community I hope that they will be partners who will make a contribution to the Community. There is, therefore, a need to ensure effective enforcement of fair competition in the Community, especially now that these new countries have joined it. May I therefore ask the Government what they are doing about the report, and how soon? I do not want to go on arguing about the matter. This is a very fine document. It has been well produced, and I should like to pay a tribute to MAFF for it.
I had been hoping for a wider discussion of this subject. Why is it not possible for horticulturalists to make use of some of the surplus power which comes from our power stations for heating purposes? I know that they are worried about the high cost of oil. This is something which the Apple and Pear Council, which I had the privilege to set up, thinks should be done. It is important to site glasshouses near to power stations in order to make use of the waste which now trickles away in other directions. I should like to know whether we are going to do something like that. Perhaps a study group could be set up to go into the question. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give me a sympathetic answer. We must appreciate that there are difficulties about it. Nevertheless, there is something in this suggestion which I hope will be considered. May I thank my noble colleague and all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It is a fine report which contains a tremendous amount of detail. It needs to be studied carefully. It is a report which is worth reading and studying.
9.7 p.m.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, it is a remarkable example of your Lordships' House that a report like this can be produced on one of the most complicated, complex and detailed subjects and yet can be discussed in the way in which it has been discussed this evening. Our debate has been condensed into something like an hour-and-a-half and a great deal of information and knowledge has been expressed. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, congratulated his noble friend Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos. I should also like to do so, with the greatest of humility. I think he said that this report was a microcosm of what happens in the whole fruit and vegetable régime in Europe. If I may say so, his speech was a microcosm of his report in 10 minutes; I thought that was a quite astonishing speech and I admired it enormously. I should like to think that I could at least try to emulate it but I know that I shall not succeed.
I know that your Lordships will be particularly grateful to the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, for having gone into this subject in such detail because it really is almost a biblos, not only for the United Kingdom but for Europe and even for third countries as to how the fruit and vegetable régime works. It is very important and I believe it will become a text book. We are of course dealing with highly complicated subjects. We are not dealing with large commodities such as we normally deal with, like beef or grain, where we can be fairly broad in our considera
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tion. We are dealing with a number of relatively small crops produced, relatively speaking, on a number of small places with a variety of climatic and husbandry conditions, and very often with a totally different marketing position where they end up. Yet the individual item, be it an apple or a mandarin or a pear, is what the housewife is concerned with, as opposed to grain, where she may be concerned with a loaf of bread but she is not concerned with the individual grain. That is where I believe this is a subject of great importance and complexity.
Of course, the horticultural industry always has been one of entrepreneurial activity, and remarkably it has succeeded in this country with very little price support from the state. Its success or its failure has depended upon the talents and the competitiveness, the vision and the dedication, of those who are engaged in the industry, and that will still continue to be so. They have the ability to face up to the vagaries of the climate and the uncertainties which it creates, both on supply and on demand. No Government have, or can be expected to have, simple solutions to these many great difficulties.
In addition, many of these products are highly perishable and one cannot expect simple solutions to them all. But I should like to come to the item which I think has been stressed by very nearly every noble Lord who has spoken, and certainly the committee referred to it in great detail. I am referring to the allegations that there is unfairness within the European Community and that some countries are not doing what they should do. The committee expressed strong concern about the suspicions that arise from these allegations and the harm which is done to the development of the Community. Clearly any partnership cannot prosper in an air of mistrust and doubt, and I am convinced that at the moment a great deal of energy is wasted by the industry—not just the horticultural industry but even the agricultural industry—in worrying unnecessarily about what others might be doing. It is important that every country should—to use the colloquial English expression—play the game, but I believe that we are in danger of expending a vast quantity of energy, almost carrying out a witch hunt, to try to see what the others are doing and to see whether what they are doing is wrong, as if, even if that were substantiated, that in itself would solve the problems. I do not believe that it would.
I think it is certainly correct that we should try to ensure that wherever possible there is fair and reasonable and proper competition and that there should not be unfair subsidies. I think we all know of doubts about this, but I really do think that the industry as a whole should not direct all its energies into trying to find out what the others are doing and telling them not to, because all you do is to expend your energies in that direction instead of expending them in trying to compete.
Here I agree so much with the noble Lord, Lord Peart, that what we in this business have to try to do is to see that our product competes. It has to compete with other people, some of whom have advantages of climate, some of whom have advantages of soil; but in the end we have to compete, and in order to do that we have to market. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, is absolutely right, and that is why I have found that one of the most stimulating things about my short tenure

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of office in this Administration and in this particular Ministry is that so much effort is expended on trying to encourage marketing.
Before we always felt that the producer has to produce the food and there is the nation ready to eat it. That is not so. Communications of every kind—I think the noble Lord, Lord Peart, referred to roll-on roll-off ferries—have become far easier. It is easier to move stuff from one country to another, and little is gained by complaining that our competitors have advantages over us if we are not making the best use of our opportunities. Having said that, I can assure your Lordships that my right honourable friend is taking every possible step to ensure that where there are substantiated evidences of unfair competition he will report those to the Commission.
The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, and I think my noble friend Lord Selbourne and the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, also said, "Why cannot we have a list of all the aids produced by other countries?" Well, I think there is a list at the moment, in a number of different languages, which extends to 6,000 pages. I think there are seven different languages in use in the Community, and if they are all going to be translated into each language we shall end up with a volume of about 42,000 pages. Then you are going to have a host of people reading through all these pages to see what the others are doing which is so wrong, and that is going to involve a vast quantity of people. In the end what we are doing is really doing the job of the Commission, because it is their duty to ensure that State aids are fair and just.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, as a matter of fact on our visit to Brussels we were told not that the list was available but that the list was confidential. Surely the noble Earl would agree that information, in peace as in war, is very vital.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I agree of course that information is always vital, but it is the Commission's responsibility to be told what aid is being given and having been told to decide whether it is fair or not. It is their duty then to inform member states where such aids are not fair and not just. All I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie—I absolutely take his point—is that we want to be careful that each member state does not find it its duty to look at each aid which is offered by each other member state, because otherwise we shall be going round in concentric circles. It is the duty of the Commission. I do not wish, in saying that, to devalue the point made so forcefully by your Lordships: that the whole essence of the system is that there must be fair and reasonable competition.
When the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, says there has been very little benefit to the United Kingdom from the Community's policy on fruit and vegetables, I am bound to say I would share that view. It seems probable that the more tangible benefits have gone to importers and consumers rather than to producers, since the régime is largely geared to assisting the Mediterranean production. My noble friend Lord Selborne referred also to the cost of this régime, as did my noble friend Lady Elliot. It is perfectly true the régime has been very expensive to the United Kingdom, but I think it is a dangerous thing to look at one tiny sector of the whole CAP and say because
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that has been expensive to us therefore it ought to be changed. Of course the fruit and vegetable régime was designed when there was a Community of six, and it was recognised that there were those countries further south who did not have the advantage of the more temperate climates of the North, and that is possibly one of the reasons why the régime was so adjusted. What we have to do now is try to readjust where possible. Having to get the consent of so many other partners is not an easy task, but I can assure your Lordships it is one which my right honourable friend intends to pursue.
The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked very succinctly, as is his characteristic, are we satisfied with grading, marketing and the quality of produce? I am bound to say my answer to that would be, No. I believe this is an area to which we ought to pay far greater attention, because in the end it is in the way the produce is marketed and presented which is what attracts it to the buyer. Far too often, as the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, pointed out, we find the produce is not of good enough quality when it reaches the consumer. The noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, also referred to an example of British produce which was very bad indeed. I saw some British produce—namely lettuces. I would only draw the noble Lord's attention to what happened to what one might describe as the "lettuce industry" about six years ago. It went through a complete revolution: it marketed itself and produced its crops far better and it now competes with the Dutch in presentation and, indeed, in many instances, in marketing requirements. I think that that is a good example of what happens when people address their minds to the situation.
Of course there ought to be a reasonable level of enforcement throughout the Community as regards inspection. The Commission reports irregularities which are recorded in trade between the member states. In addition, member states are required to report on home-grown produce which fails to meet the required standards on the domestic market. Records are kept of all inspections which are carried out. One might say that ideally a large proportion of home-grown and imported produce should be inspected, and at every stage in the distribution chain. That would, frankly, be impossible because it would need a great army of inspectors and the Government would be assuming the responsibilities which are really, in the last instance, best undertaken by the trade itself.
Our own inspectorate has recently been subject to the searchlight of a Rayner-type review and my right honourable friend will shortly be announcing—and the noble Lord, Lord Peart, asked me about this—his decision on the recommendations in the report of the review. I could not anticipate what is likely to be said then.
Many noble Lords referred to the difficulties of the withdrawal of produce. I think that one must face the fact that in the triumphs and disasters of the climate we must accept that, in some years, there will be abundant crops and in other years shortages. That is particularly true in the horticultural sector, where, because of the highly perishable nature of most fresh produce, storage is not practical. It follows that one consequence of the concern of the industry to meet the demands for fresh produce at all times is that there

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will be periods of glut and some of this produce will inevitably be wasted. I think that it offends against the conscience of everyone when, in a world in which two-thirds of the population are short of food, we see good food wasted, but I am afraid that far too often that is one of the laws of supply and demand in perishable produce.
I do not believe that there are many people who grow simply in order to have their produce made the subject of withdrawal. I know that one or two of your Lordships have suggested that this evening. The withdrawal price is, in fact, well below a normal market price. At best, it is no more than a minimum safety net for a very efficient producer. I think that it is unlikely that many people would grow simply in order to see their produce being withdrawn.
My noble friend Lord Selborne has played, if I may say so, a quite remarkable part in the apple industry. He it was who was Chairman of the Top Fruit Working Group which produced the remarkable document which has, in fact, guided the whole of the apply industry over the last 18 months. I should like to pay a tribute to him and to his colleagues for what they have done. Many of the recommendations have been acted upon, and the Apple and Pear Development Council took up the challenge in a most dramatic way. Its "Kingdom" scheme, with the assistance of a grant of £300,000 from the Government, fired the imagination of the industry and it greatly helped to increase its returns. I believe that what happened in the apply industry is an example that many others, both within and without the agricultural industry, could well follow.
Having been assaulted by the import of Golden Delicious apples, growers were prepared to say, "It is our job to fight back, and we will"; and they did. It is a great tribute to what they have done and shows how an industry, when it is being persecuted, can have the guts to pick itself up and fight back. My noble friend said that the Community preference is for large apples and I agree with him—I do not like having to eat something the size of a football. That is a perfectly good advertising point which could be made over the Cox; it is not as big as some others, and that is a very good thing too. It also has the benefit of flavour because it is grown in a country which is subjected to cold winters, and it is the quality of the cold winters that gives the apple its flavour. That is not so with Golden Delicious.
My noble friend Lord Selborne said that our orchards were old and that there ought to be restructuring grants for orchards. He knows that restructuring grants for all orchards would be a very expensive business. At the moment Ministers are examining with the industry how such restructuring could be tackled, but I can give him no promise of how this will be done or whether any public funds will be available for it.
The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, the point I was trying to make was that this should be funded from EEC funds and not necessarily from national funds.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am very glad that my noble friend has made that point clear. I was not fully seized of it and I shall certainly look into it. The
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noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, referred to the question of import tariffs. Of course, questions relating to tariffs and third country import arrangements are generally for the Community as a whole to decide, taking into account all the interests and all the circumstances which are involved. Where there is a strong case—and, as usual, the noble Lord pointed to a very good case—we ask the Commission to investigate the possibility of negotiating tariff reductions. But I could not hold out great hopes of immediate results because as he will realise, international negotiations between the Community and third countries are a matter for the Community and it is, of course, all part of the GATT system and, therefore, those discussions tend to be of rather longer nature than one might wish. But I certainly take the noble Lord's point.
My noble friend Lady Elliot, and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Sidmouth, referred to glasshouses and to the difficulties which they have experienced. I share the concern expressed by the noble Viscount and by my noble friend that the glasshouse industry has gone through a very difficult and testing time. It is perfectly true that the Dutch glasshouse growers have had the advantage of what is described as unfair competition. The Commission was asked to investigate it; it did, and it considered that the competition was unfair. As the noble Viscount will know, we have been able to give an adaptation aid of £5½ million this year, which is the extent and the limitation under the EEC rules, as aid to the industry.
I recognise that it does not solve the problems, but the Dutch have recently announced increases this year in the price of gas to growers, with further increases to follow. This package of increases will not fully remedy the situation. My right honourable friend has assured both the president of the National Farmers' Union as well as Members of Parliament that he will continue to press for the preferential tariff to be ended before April 1984, which is the date currently planned.
The noble Lord, Lord Peart, asked: why do we not do something about using waste heat from power stations? I can tell him that this is being done. I have seen myself the result of some of this work at the Drax power station where the heat from the power station is used to heat greenhouses. It is an impressive system; it is a new system. I have no doubt that it will have its own teething problems, but I can assure the noble Lord that that method of saving heat and using it for agriculture is being used. I would also let him know in that context that I believe there is quite a possibility of using energy by methods of anaerobic digestion, which is another means whereby agriculture can use, or can provide, its own energy, but again that is very much long term.
I would conclude by saying that I appreciate greatly the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, introduced this debate. I appreciate enormously, as indeed the whole House does, the work which his committee has done because it has been a mammoth work and it will be of great benefit. I would, if I may, thank as well those who have been good enough to give evidence, because when you go to give evidence to a committee such as your Lordships' committees, you do not just roll up and speak, you have to do a lot of homework to make quite certain that the evidence upon which your Lordships' decisions are going to be taken is

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correct. I should like to thank the noble Lord for having introduced this debate, and your Lordships for having made it so interesting.
9.33 p.m.
Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos: My Lords, I shall not detain the House for more than a moment or two, but I should like to say that, although this has been a short debate, it has been an extremely valuable one. On behalf of the members of the committee, I should like to say how much we appreciated the generous remarks which have been made about the committee's work, and about this report in particular, by the noble Earl the Minister and by my noble friend Lord Peart.
It is quite remarkable when we regard the debate in general how fortunate we are as a committee structure and as a House that we have so many specialists in this field who can speak in a debate of this kind. It is a tribute to our committee system and to this House as a second Chamber that we have noble Lords who speak with such authority that the industry and the country must listen to them.
The noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, in fact referred to tomato concentrate. I think I should in fairness mention that the Food Manufacturers' Federation, which provided us with valuable written and oral evidence, are a little concerned that the report, as they think, did not spell out with sufficient clarity why Italian producers of tomato ketchup have been enabled to undercut the price of ketchup produced in this country by 4p to 6p a 12 oz. bottle.
The report goes into this matter in some detail in paragraphs 45 and 46, but the federation have submitted a note since the publication of the report, and I should, as a matter of equity, place this on the record before we come to the conclusion of this debate. This is what the FMF said:
"The solution to this problem advocated by the FMF, with the support of MAFF, is that the table of coefficients used for calculating production aid for tomato concentrate should be amended so that the coefficients are directly proportional to the dry extract content of the fresh fruit equivalent. This would put production aid payments on a more equitable basis, and enable Italian and British ketchup manufacturers to compete more fairly".
I think that in fairness to the FMF I should say that at the conclusion of the debate. I am extremely grateful to the Minister for the constructive way in which he wound up. He walked delicately through the minefield of state aids. I could say a great deal to him about that, but I will forbear at this moment and tell him privately what I think about it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

South Yorkshire Bill
Examiners Certificate that no further Standing Order is applicable: Ordered to lie on the Table.
  "THE WAR GAME"
  "THE WAR GAME"
  TROOPING THE COLOUR SHOOTING INCIDENT: ARREST
  TROOPING THE COLOUR SHOOTING INCIDENT: ARREST
  INFORMATION TRANSFER: AUTHORISATION
  INFORMATION TRANSFER: AUTHORISATION