Sitting of 19 January 1981

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  Trade

    Air Fares (Europe)
    Mr. Rhodes Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Trade what progress is being made to secure greater competition in the determination of air fares in Europe.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Reginald Eyre): We are making less progress than we would wish because many other European Governments wish to retain the present tightly regulated system and we can make progress only by agreement. But we support innovative fares proposed by British airlines; we refuse fare increases when we do not think them justified; and at our initiative the Commission is examining air fares in the Community, with a remit to report back to the Council of Transport Ministers.
    Mr. Rhodes James: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the current level of standard air fares in Europe is ludicrously and unacceptably high in relation to other routes and is actively damaging to the increase of air traffic within Europe? Will he press this matter considerably further? What is wrong with further competition, particularly from the private sector, in order to improve the situation?
    Mr. Eyre: We believe that major liberalising steps are needed, because air fares too often are too high. More innovative steps, such as lower standby fares and "mini-prix" fares, should be approved. Because of our international agreements, we cannot decide on the level of international fares without the agreement of the other Governments concerned.
    Mr. Campell-Savours: Is it not true that there is a necessity to protect existing capacity within the European airlines, and that there is a relationship between the losses of British Airways and the attitude being taken by the Government on a free air policy?
    Mr. Eyre: It is true that the world economic recession is adversely affecting the trade of British Airways and of other international airlines, but I emphasise that, against that background, our aim is to ensure that legitimate fares suit all categories of traveller. That is why my hon. Friend the former Under-Secretary of State is to be congratulated on his initiative in persuading the Commission to examine air fares in the Community and to report back.
    Mr. Emery: Does my hon. Friend accept that the immense number of air tickets that are sold to what are termed "bucket shops" are in fact sold by the major airlines, including British Airways? In order to obtain a greater degree of competition, and to stop the aspect of illegality in this practice — which is frequently most welcomed by holidaymakers and travelers—should not the Government take a line and attempt to bring the whole "bucket shop" operation into a better perspective?
    Mr. Eyre: I appreciate the practicality of my hon. Friend's question. I believe that he is right in his view of public opinion, but I have tried to emphasise that the agreement that is made for airline routes includes an agreement about fares. Airlines—or their agents—are required to charge approved fares. It is not possible for us to legalise illegally discounted tickets except by obtaining the agreement of our international partners to lower fares. That is why we are making efforts in that direction.
    Mr. Neubert: However attractive and long overdue is the prospect of lower air fares in Europe, is my hon. Friend

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    entirely happy that British Airways should be embarked upon the present policy of matching the competition, whether legal or illegal, at a time when it is in such desperate trouble that it is having to borrow millions of pounds to pay its wages bill?
    Mr. Eyre: My hon. Friend has not fully understood the purpose of, for example, Sir Freddie Laker, where, when lower fares have been negotiated on, say, the North Atlantic run, the result has been to increase the market available and therefore to increase the number of passengers who are able to afford to travel.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This matter comes up again on question 14.

    British Airports Authority
    Mr. Brightasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied that the accounts of the British Airports Authority are as informative as those relating to similar international airports such as those of New York.
    Mr. Eyre: They are much more informative.
    Mr. Bright: In what way are the British Airports Authority's accounts more informative than those of other international airports.
    Mr. Eyre: The annual report and accounts of the British Airports Authority have recently been commended by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. Few other major international airports appear to produce reports and accounts that are as informative. For example, no comparable financial information is provided for each of the individual airports under the control of the port of New York and New Jersey authority or l'Aeroport de Paris.

    Air Traffic Control (Europe)
    Mr. David Atkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he is satisfied that Eurocontrol will be able to continue to discharge its responsibilities for air traffic control in Europe.
    Mr. Eyre: Yes, Sir. The recently agreed arrangements for the future of Eurocontrol will result in a continuing high standard of air traffic control, but on a more cost-effective and efficient basis than hitherto.
    Mr. Atkinson: In view of the frequent and widespread delays experienced by British and European tourists, is there any possibility of widening the membership of Eurocontrol to make it more effective over a wider area?
    Mr. Eyre: The layout of routes must have regard to safety and the avoidance of areas set aside for military purposes. However, subject to, that, I accept the importance of my hon. Friend's point. There is a prospect of improving the service as a wider area of control is brought about.
    Mr. Robert Atkins: Is my hon. Friend aware that the operation of Eurocontrol compares unfavourably with air traffic control arrangements in the United States, in that the productivity of air traffic control to get aeroplanes in and out of various airports and air passages is less good than the American system?
    Mr. Eyre: My noble Friend, who has responsibility for aviation matters will, I am sure, carefully consider the point.

    Chemicals
    Mr. Peter Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Trade what was the balance of trade in chemicals for that part of 1980 for which he has figures as compared with the same period in previous years.
    The Minister for Trade (Mr. Cecil Parkinson): In 1980 the United Kingdom had a crude surplus on trade in chemicals of £2,139 million, compared with surpluses of around £1,500 million in each of the two previous years.
    Mr. Lloyd: Does my hon. Friend agree that those are excellent results, for which the industry deserves high praise? However, does he also agree that such success is vulnerable to retaliation against any protective measures that we may take to assist parts of our home market that are facing competition from imports? Does he further agree that the success is vulnerable to competition from countries such as the United States, where fuel and other input costs are kept artificially low?
    Mr. Parkinson: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is "Yes". The figures demonstrate that Britain, being extremely dependent on trade and access to other markets, has much to lose from the extension of widespread protectionism. I agree also with my hon. Friend's second point.
    Mr. Barry Jones: Is the Minister aware that Graesser Salicylutes Limited, in my constituency suffered dozens of redundancies in 1980, largely due to the strength of the pound and the need for energy subsidies, as well as high interest rates? Is he further aware that that company has also been hit hard through the importation from the Chinese Republic of Paracetamol, which has given it financial headaches?
    Mr. Parkinson: Individual British companies have been having a difficult time. However, our chemical industry has been much more successful in maintaining a larger share of other people's markets than they have been in maintaining the same share of ours.
    Mr. Hardy: Energy price advantages in America have been mentioned. Does the Minister accept that the British chemical industry would pay £250 million less for its energy if the same prices applied as those in Germany and France?
    Mr. Parkinson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, a working party has been set up to establish the indisputable facts about the matter. There are as many opinions as there are people. We wish to get the right answer.

    Aviation Security Levy
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade whether he expects to be able to make any reduction in the costs of security provisions for airline passengers.
    Mr. Eyre: My noble Friend does not propose to reduce the rate of the aviation security levy, but it will remain at its present level for the time being.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: To what extent does my hon. Friend consider that the charge of £4 for a round trip airline

    5
    ticket represents the true economic cost of providing airport security? Is he aware that airports other than those run by the British Airports Authority, which employ private security companies, need to charge rather less than 50 per cent. of that figure to cover their costs? In those circumstances, is it not high time that the Government either reconsidered the charges that the British Airports Authority is having to levy, or the security levy in general?
    Mr. Eyre: I am sure that my noble Friend will consider those points carefully. Centralised searching at Heathrow terminal 3 should lead to staff reductions, and similar arrangements at Gatwick are being considered. That will help to keep down the cost of the searching process.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: In view of the addition to costs and the disruption of services caused by the practice, always unnecessary, but quite unnecessary now, of flying British shuttle crews from Belfast to Glasgow every night so that they may escape the dangers to which 1½ million of their fellow citizens are exposed, will the Government take steps to bring the nonsense to an end, in everybody's interest?
    Mr. Eyre: I shall ask my noble Friend to consider that. On the question of security costs generally, the answer is that the recent change made concerning flights to Northern Ireland has improved security and introduced greater convenience for passengers.
    Mr. McCrindle: Why are there no plans to return those security tasks to private enterprise, bearing in mind the disproportionate rise in costs since the responsibility was passed to the British Airports Authority?
    Mr. Eyre: The system of financing the security costs enables my Department to keep a closer check on the standard of security arrangements. However, I shall ask my noble Friend to consider that proposal carefully.
    Mr. Clinton Davis: Is the Minister aware that the standards of training undertaken by virtually all private security companies before the changeover were grossly inadequate?
    Mr. Eyre: I appreciate that a proper standard of skill is necessary, but it has been established widely at other airports. However, my noble Friend will certainly have regard to that matter.
    Mr. Freud: Will the Minister think very carefully before committing the country to a whole new range of para-police personnel, as one finds at the moment in America, where one tends to be searched and manhandled by almost anyone with a flash on his shoulder?
    Mr. Eyre: The hon. Gentleman's question goes far wider than the main question that I am answering—
    Mr. Freud: No.
    Mr. Eyre: The main question relates to important security matters concerning the safety of air passengers.

    Regional Airports
    Mr. Bowen Wellsasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied with the implementation of his policy towards regional airports.
    Mr. Eyre: I am never fully satisfied, but the substantial capital investment programme announced on 11
    6
    December, together with the progress we have made in promoting new air services to airports outside the London area, demonstrates our commitment to encouraging the fullest use of regional airports to meet local demand.
    Mr. Wells: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Can he be more specific on the question of the transfer of charter traffic away from the principal airports in the South-East—Heathrow and Gatwick? What progress has he made in transferring major airlines from Heathrow to Gatwick, to make use of the unused facilities at Gatwick?
    Mr. Eyre: I believe that my right hon. Friend's policy in encouraging regional airports gives substantial and welcome encouragement to the regional airports. I think that my hon. Friend will understand that the greatest growth is not necessarily in charter flights but in regular service flights with lower charges of the kind that I have mentioned. There has recently been an extension of the services that my hon. Friend asked about: for example, from Manchester to New York.
    Mr. McNally: Will the Minister take this opportunity to congratulate Manchester international airport on topping the 4 million passenger mark last year, increasing its passenger input by 29 per cent. and its freight throughput by 12 per cent., and attracting 10 new airlines? Is not that proof that a vigorous regional airports policy can work both in taking the pressure off Heathrow and in developing the regions?
    Mr. Eyre: I am happy to join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating Manchester airport on its development. The Government will do everything possible to sustain that improvement by securing for Manchester extra services of the kind that I have given as an example.
    Mr. Adley: I endorse my hon. Friend's comment that local demand should be the factor that determines the growth and size of an airport. Is he aware that many of the constituents of my hon. Friends the Members for Dorset, North (Mr. Baker) and for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson), as well as many of mine, very much hope that he will keep a close watch on those who have a predatory eye on developing Hum airport? Will he acquaint himself with the Parley Lane situation, and recognise that he can help to make a name for himself in controlling Government expenditure by stopping this bit of nonsense?
    Mr. Eyre: I am attracted by my hon. Friend's proposition. With my noble Friend, I shall look at the questions that he has raised.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Does the Minister agree that this period of economic depression is the time when investment in our regional airports should be stepped up? In this connection, will he very much bear in mind Cardiff, Wales, airport?
    Mr. Eyre: Unfortunately, Cardiff airport did not qualify on a regional or national basis to benefit from the schemes recently announced. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's general point, he will appreciate that the scheme for assisting the development of regional airports is a very useful form of economic activity at present.

    Indonesia
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has had further discussions with representatives of the Indonesian Government concerning bilateral trade; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Parkinson: My right hon. Friend the previous Secretary of State for Trade, at the invitation of the Indonesian Minister for Trade, visited Jakarta on 7 and 8 January. He discussed textile matters and wider bilateral trade issues with the President of Indonesia and several Indonesian Government Ministers. Quota levels were discussed at which the European Commission might reach agreement with Indonesia on the quantities of some Indonesian-made garments which might be imported into the United Kingdom in 1981. Normal trading between the United Kingdom and Indonesia has been resumed.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that statement. Does not this example of our recent relations with Indonesia serve as a warning to those hon. Members on both sides of the House who believe that there is some future in protectionist policies? Is it not now clear from this experience that the only way in which Britain will be successful is by manufacturing and selling to the best standards in the world?
    Mr. Parkinson: My hon. Friend is right. What comes out of this experience is that those who argue that we can protect our industries without expecting retaliation have been misleading themselves.
    Mr. Straw: Why is the Minister giving a false impression about the facts of the Indonesian argument? Is it not the case that the dispute arose not out of a unilateral imposition of quotas by Britain, but out of a breach by Indonesia of a set of quotas previously agreed between Indonesia and the EEC, and that the message is that world trade will be disrupted if countries such as Indonesia break bilateral and multilateral agreements, on which the whole of world trade must depend?
    Mr. Parkinson: It was precisely to establish that point that my right hon. Friend went to Indonesia. He pointed out to the Indonesians that we were not discriminating against them, but that they were one of 41 countries with which we had agreements and that we could not allow those agreements to be torn up unilaterally. However, it is a fact that my right hon. Friend negotiated levels of access for 1981 that are only two-thirds of those for 1980.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Until the Indonesian Government release their thousands of political prisoners and end their invasion of East Timor, will the British Government cease all supplies of arms and military equipment, including training aeroplanes, to that country?
    Mr. Parkinson: I know that the hon. Gentleman has extremely strong views about these matters, but he tends to be rather selective in choosing when to assert them. I have never heard him suggest that we should in any way interfere with our trade with Eastern Europe, for instance, or withdraw our ambassadors, which has been the demand in other cases, because of abuse of human rights there. Certainly we deplore the abuse of human rights wherever it occurs, but we try to separate that and trade. If we were to introduce a political acceptability test for trade we should sell very little to anyone.

    National Union of Townswomen's Guilds
    Mr. Spellerasked the Secretary of State for Trade what further references are being made to the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds.
    Mr. McQuarrieasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he has any plans to refer any matters to the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds.
    The Minister for Consumer Affairs (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim): On 20 November 1980 I sought the views of the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds on the scope and content of the consumer education pack which we are preparing for use in schools. It has expressed initial satisfaction and pleasure with my proposals in outline, and I await a more detailed response.
    Mr. Speller: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the broadened base of consultation, but will she, while consulting the urban ladies, not omit the rural ladies of the women's institutes?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I consulted the National Federation of Women's Institutes on children's reaction to advertising, and I recently received its report, which was extremely useful. I greatly value the extended communications that I have with the commonsense, grassroot opinions provided both by the National Union of Townswomen's Guilds and by the women's institutes.
    Mr. Michael Brown: My right hon. Friend mentioned common sense in her discussions with the townswomen's guilds and the women's institutes. Did they offer her any common sense in the matter of the use of gallons or litres in the sale of petrol?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I have not made this reference to them, but I feel that I know what their views are. I should like to make the Government's position clear. The Government have not required the change. I personally regret it. During the passage of the Weights and Measures Bill under the previous Government I carried an amendment to exempt the statutory imposition of metrication where gallons were used. This is a purely technical matter that has arisen within the industry because of technical difficulties with petrol pumps. I regret that the change has been necessary, but I accept that it has. I personally shall select garages that still sell petrol by gallons, wherever that is possible.
    Mr. John Fraser: Since the right hon. Lady measures her car's engine in litres, I do not see why she should object if other people tend to measure petrol in the same way. Can she enunciate her principles on consultation? Is she consulting one organisation on one order? Surely on a consumer education pack one should consult rather more widely than one institution.
    Mrs. Oppenheim: The hon. Gentleman is right. I am consulting widely. The education pack, as he will recall from his own safety pratice, is not an order. It is an initiative of the Minister. I am consulting widely with all interested parties.
    Mr. Marlow: Will my right hon. Friend agree with me that, to a certain extent, the discussion by petrol companies with regard to technical problems is a smokescreen, and that the petrol pump meters that exist at the moment could be used?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I know that this is my hon. Friend's view, which he has expressed to me on a number of occasions. It is not, however, the view of those involved in the technical production of the apparatus. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the increase in the price of petrol in recent years has produced difficulties for the mechanism of existing petrol pumps in keeping up with the increase. That is not only true in this country but also in the United States, where, by coincidence, the price of petrol is $1·30-something. The United States is also changing—I believe that it will regret doing so—to metrication.

    Balance of Trade
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Trade what was the United Kingdom balance of trade for 1980.
    Mr. Parkinson: In 1980 the United Kingdom had a visible trade surplus of £1,039 million. The current account as a whole was in surplus by £2,281 million.
    Mr. Chapman: I welcome those figures, but will my hon. Friend confirm that our trade with the industrialising non-OPEC countries is broadly in balance? If that is so, should we not be wary about trying to introduce import controls, as to do so would mean that many exporting industries in this country would suffer as a result of our efforts to overcome the problems that certain industries suffer at the moment?
    Mr. Parkinson: My hon. Friend is right. We had a small surplus with the countries about which he questioned me, but we had a substantial surplus on manufactures. They had a surplus with us on raw materials. It is a two-way trade, of strong benefit to us.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Do not these figures show that this country should be importing more rather than less? Will the Government consider advising Her Majesty to institute a new award for services to importing, to counterbalance and ridicule the award for services to exporting?
    Mr. Parkinson: I very rarely hear the right hon. Gentleman make a remark that is not original. That suggestion was floated by my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) a few years ago—
    Mr. Powell: He got it from me.
    Mr. Parkinson: I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that my hon. Friend did not reveal that fact when he reduced to laughter a Committee considering the Bill upstairs.
    The right hon. Gentleman is right. This year our imports fell very substantially, and our exports more or less maintained themselves. Those who keep shouting for an extension of import controls should recognise that we would be the big sufferers if people outside this country took their advice.
    Mr. Bulmer: Does my hon. Friend agree that our balance of trade with the United States would be more favourable if that country were not subsidising its energy costs? Has he any reason to think that the situation will change? If not, does he propose to take any fresh initiative on behalf of the British carpet industry?
    Mr. Parkinson: As my hon. Friend knows, I made a statement in the House in December. The following day,
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    I went to Brussels and persuaded the Council of Ministers to instruct the Commission to take up this matter with the Americans with a view to finding an answer to the problem. The Commission is committed to making a first report back at the February Council of Ministers. I shall keep the House in touch with developments.
    Mr. John Smith: Is the Minister aware that there is outrage in many sections of British industry about the continued capacity of the United States to gain a cheap, unfair trading advantage by artificially low energy prices? This has reached the dimensions of a scandal, and it is time that the United Kingdom, with or without the co-operation of other countries in Western Europe that are affected, took a stand on the matter. Is the Minister aware that it is ominous that he used the words "first report" to the next Council of Ministers. Does he not feel that this matter will drag on for months, with no remedy for British industry, which is suffering as a result of an unfair policy?
    Mr. Parkinson: It would have been unrealistic to expect a full and final report to be made to Council Ministers in February. President-elect Reagan and his Administration take office tomorrow. They will need time to consider the range of problems that they face. The Commission accepts the urgency of this matter and will press hard for an answer. One of the items that we seek is a deregulation of energy prices.

    Milk
    Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he proposes to take any steps to determine whether the restrictions in competition in the sale of milk are beneficial to consumers.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: Restrictions on competition are normally a matter for the Director General of Fair Trading. I understand he is now considering whether to use his powers under the competition legislation over the supply of milk. If he does, then all aspects of the public interest will be taken into account in any subsequent investigation and recommendation.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: Since the rise in the price of milk over the past 12 months has been higher than the current rate of inflation, have the Government given any consideration to the free importation of milk? Or would that lead to the end of doorstep deliveries?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: This is obviously a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The question of the ending of doorstep selling would be in the forefront of the mind of anyone considering any references on milk prices, milk availability and the price of milk in supermarkets. That is one side of the public interest, and it must be considered equally with the other side of that public interest.
    Mr. Dubs: Cart the Minister give the House a better reassurance? Does she not agree that the vast majority of people in this country think it essential that doorstep deliveries should continue? May we have a clear statement from the Government that they will do all that is possible to protect those deliveries?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: I think that the hon. Gentleman is probably right and that a majority of people would prefer the continuance of at least a partial, if not an entire, doorstep delivery service. No doubt the Director General

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    of Fair Trading will bear that in mind. If he makes a reference, the public interest and, indeed, public opinion will be a matter for the Monopolies and Mergers Commission to consider in making its final report and recommendations. The criteria of the legislation are drafted in such a way that the Commission must take note, in its final recommendations, of all aspects of the public interest.
    Mr. John Fraser: Does the right hon. Lady recognise that the pure pursuit of competition can sometimes have adverse effects and put up prices? Estate agents' fees are an example of that. The ending of doorstep deliveries would rob us of a cheap source of protein and would only build up a surplus inside the EEC, to which we have to contribute.
    Mrs. Oppenheim: As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows—I am not accusing him of being disingenuous—one of the purposes of the Competition Act is to deal with distortions in competitions of this nature. The whole question of the doorstep delivery of milk is important. I believe that it affects a majority of consumers in this country. There is no question of its being abolished. The Government's position is clear, namely, the Government will follow whatever course is the public interest. Other distortions of competition are matters for the Director General to pursue under the Competition Act.

    Air Transport
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he is satisfied with the existing arrangements for considering the interests of users of air transport.
    Mr. Eyre: Broadly, yes. However, I should like to see closer co-operation between the air transport users committee and the airport consultative committees at Heathrow and Gatwick. My Department is currently discussing with the interested parties how this can be accomplished.
    Mr. McCrindle: I welcome the existence of the air transport users committee, but will the Minister consider separating it from the Civil Aviation Authority and giving it its own budget? Would that not have enabled it to criticise the decision of the CAA to veto the plan by TWA to fly children free across the Atlantic when two adults were flying? Was that not an innovative and competitive move? Would not the move that I suggest enable the representatives of the passenger to criticise such an uncompetitive reaction from the CAA?
    Mr. Eyre: I regret that I have not yet had the opportunity to study the affairs of the air transport users committee to an extent that would enable me to give a full reply to my hon. Friend. I shall write to him on these matters.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will my hon. Friend look at the Treaty of Rome to satisfy himself that it makes no exemptions for air transport and that restrictions in terms of both frequency and ticket pricing within Europe among EEC members are direct violations of the treaty? Having satisfied himself on that, will he set in motion the necessary corrective action?
    Mr. Eyre: I always start by indicating my respect for the constitutional opinions advanced by my hon. Friend. However, the application of the Treaty of Rome to air
    12
    transport has never been tested in the courts. Until the issue is resolved in that or some other way, it is not clear exactly what are the implications of the treaty for air transport. It is for that reason that Ministers are seeking to make progress, along the lines that I have indicated, by way of agreement.
    Mr. Clinton Davis: May I return to the original question? Will the Minister consider most carefully the independence of this body? Is he aware that there is a strong argument that because it is associated with the Civil Aviation Authority it lacks the independence that it should have?
    Mr. Eyre: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for emphasising that point. I assure him that serious attention will be given to it.
    Mr. Michael Brown: Does my hon. Friend not think it wrong that when an airline can no longer continue to operate a service for financial or other reasons—that being the case between Humberside and Heathrow—it can continue to hold a licence, thereby preventing, without application to the CAA, another airline from seeking to operate that service when it is financially competent so to do?
    Mr. Eyre: I have not heard of difficulty in that respect. If my hon. Friend would be good enough to give me a note of the circumstances that he has in mind, I know that my noble Friend would want to consider the issue carefully.

    Advertising Control
    Mr. Wallerasked the Secretary of State for Trade what response has been made to the working party report on advertising control.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: We are considering the working party's recommendations and will announce our conclusions in due course.
    Mr. Waller: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the circumstances in which it would be necessary for the Director-General of Fair Trading to apply to a court to have an advertisement banned before it appears, would be so rare that it seems unnecessary to have such legislation? Should we not give up trying to comply with the EEC draft directive and instead rely on the good sense of the advertising industry, which has proved quite adequate until now?
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Work on the proposed Community directive on misleading and unfair advertising, which has been temporarily suspended, will resume in Brussels early this year. That will have to take account of the special features in our system. Our legal and voluntary regime works well on the whole, and we should not wish to do anything to undermine it.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the right hon. Lady aware that it is not control that is required for alcohol and tobacco, but total abolition?
    Mrs. OppenheimThat is a matter for others of my right hon. Friends.

    Company Shares (Purchase)
    Mr. Beaumont-Darkasked the Secretary of State for Trade what reactions have so far been received to the consultative document on the purchase by a company of its own shares.
    Mr. Eyre: Very full and favourable. In the light of these reactions, my right hon. Friend told the House on 18 December of the Government's intention to deal with this in the next Companies Bill.
    Mr. Beaumont-Dark: May I assure my hon. Friend that his response will be widely welcomed in industry and in the City, bearing in mind the great success of this measure in the United States? Have we an understanding that such a provision will be introduced in the next Companies Bill? If it is introduced, it will be met with considerable approval in industry.
    Mr. Eyre: I appreciate the importance that my hon. Friend attaches to the issue. Subject to appropriate safeguards, we see no reason why company law should prohibit any class of company from buying its own shares. That is permissible in many other countries, and I confirm that it is our intention to include a provision to that effect in the next Companies Bill.
    Mr. Clinton Davis: Bearing in mind that the Companies Bill is not contentious in party political terms, will the Minister reconsider the decision that he announced previously, that he would not publish draft clauses prior to the introduction of the Bill? Is he aware that the precedents for publication were widely welcomed not only by the financial press, but by many other experts, and that it is a useful way of ensuring that matters are debated by those who are experts, rather than just having a debate in the House of Commons after publication of the Bill?
    Mr. Eyre: The hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the importance of consultation on technical clauses whenever possible and whenever time permits. Indeed, that would be our wish. As he knows, wherever possible there has been a good deal of consultation on draft clauses. However, we shall very soon be in a position to publish the Bill.

    European Community (Balance of Trade)
    Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for Trade if he will list figures illustrating the balance of trade of each member State of the European Community with non-European Economic Community Countries and with each other for the last five years.

    Crude Trade Balances of the European Community Countries with the Community and the Rest of the World

    £ Billion

    United kingdom

    Belgium/Luxembourg

    Denmark

    France

    Federal Republic of Germany

    Greece

    Ireland

    Italy

    Netherlands

    Crude Balance of Trade with the Community

    1975

    -2·3

    -0·1

    -0·4

    -0·3

    +1·2

    -0·5

    -0·0

    -0·2

    +2·5

    1976

    -2·1

    +0·2

    -1·0

    -1·9

    +2·4

    -0·6

    -0·2

    -0·5

    +4·1

    1977

    -1·9

    -0·2

    -1·1

    -1·5

    +2·5

    -0·9

    -0·2

    -0·6

    +3·4

    1978

    -2·4

    -0·6

    -0·9

    -0·9

    +3·1

    -0·9

    -0·3

    +1·2

    +2·7

    1979

    -2·9

    +0·2

    -1·0

    -0·5

    +3·0

    -1·1

    -0·7

    -0·9

    +3·9

    1980

    +0·1

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    n.a

    Mr. Parkinson: Full information could be provided only at disproportionate cost. I am therefore making available certain summary statistics. As even this involves the provision of 92 separate figures, with permission I will publish them in the Official Report.
    Mr. Marlow: The public are quite rightly very interested in a proper perspective of our trade with Europe. As one-fifth of our exports to Europe are in terms of oil, can my hon. Friend say to what extent they arise out of our membership of the Community and to what extent they arise purely out of factors of geology and geography? If we were to subtract this trade in oil, what would be the true position of our trade with Europe, and what would be the implications of that?
    Mr. Parkinson: I am sorry to have to tell my hon. Friend that the figures that will be published in the Official Report do not include the figures that he has requested. Our exports of manufactures to the EEC have been increasing dramatically, and this year they covered 90 per cent. of our imports in manufactures, as opposed to 84 per cent. a year before. Our trade with Europe in manufactures is our fastest growing area for trade in such goods. My hon. Friend need not be quite so obsessive about oil.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Before my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) disappears under the mound of statistics that he has invoked, will my hon. Friend explain to him that our trading difficulties do not arise in any way from our membership of the EEC and would not in any be facilitated by turning the EEC into a free trade area, as a good many seem to want? On the contrary, the fault lies in ourselves and in the uncompetitiveness of British industry.
    Mr. Parkinson: My hon. Friend is right in saying that withdrawal from the EEC would be a disaster for many British companies which have been reorientating their trade towards the EEC, and which would find themselves having to send in those exports over a tariff barrier which they do not have to do now. I hope that Labour Members who argue the case for withdrawal will spell out to the electorate the full details and consequences of withdrawal.
    Mr. Squire: Will my hon. Friend point out that the oil companies provide employment in Britain, and that it makes no more sense to exclude oil figures than it does to exclude the figures of other industries where we are perhaps less successful?
    Mr. Parkinson: I agree with my hon. Friend.
    Following is the information:

    United kingdom

    Belgium/Luxembourg

    Denmark

    France

    Federal Republic of Germany

    Greece

    Ireland

    Italy

    Netherlands

    Crude Balance of Trade with the Community

    1975

    -1·9

    -0·6

    -0·4

    -0·6

    +5·9

    -0·9

    -0·2

    -1·2

    -2·2

    1976

    -3·3

    -1·6

    -0·9

    -2·8

    +5·4

    -1·3

    -0·3

    -2·7

    -3·7

    1977

    -1·8

    -1·3

    -0·8

    -2·5

    +7·3

    -1·4

    -0·4

    -1·5

    -4·4

    1978

    -1·2

    -1·2

    -0·7

    -1·9

    +8·1

    -1·4

    -0·4

    -0·3

    -4·2

    1979

    -2·7

    -2·1

    -0·9

    -3·6

    +3·4

    -1·6

    -0·6

    -2·4

    -5·6

    1980

    -2·2

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a.

    n.a. not available

    Sources:

    UNITED KINGDOM: United Kingdom Trade with European Countries December 1979 and September 1980 and latest Press Notice

    OTHERS: OECD 'Series B'; OECD 'Series C' Microfiche (for 1979)

    Manufactured Goods
    Mr. Edwin Wainwrightasked the Secretary of State for Trade what were the values of exported manufactured goods during each of the past four years; and what are the corresponding figures for imported manufactured goods.
    Mr. Parkinson: Figures on the preferred balance of payments basis are available only for the first three quarters of 1980. These show exports of manufactures at £26·3 billion and imports at £22·8 billion. With permission, I will circulate the rest of the information in the Official Report.
    Mr. Wainwright: Has the Minister taken into account the fact that there is a surplus in our manufacturing industry, and that we have over 2 million unemployed? What new ideas is he promoting to encourage our manufacturing industry further to export? Will he take another look at the import system? We have a surplus of coal, textiles and boots and shoes, and imports are coming into Britain in greater quantities than are required. Do we not have greater facilities than we need for importing—facilities that are greater than those for exporting?
    Mr. Parkinson: The figures that I have given the hon. Gentleman in answer to his original question are a bad basis for the assertions that he has made. Last year we sold to the rest of the world £3,500 million-worth more of manufactures than we bought. If we did as the hon. Gentleman suggests or implies and started to stop the flow of exports into Britain other countries would do the same, and as we have a surplus we should be the losers.
    Mr. Adley: Will my hon. Friend confirm that, pound for pound, and job for job, the service sector is every bit as important as manufacturing industry? As his is the sponsoring Department will he say whether he has seen the recommendation sent today to the Treasury by the chairman of the British Tourist Authority? Will he consider it and make sure that he supports it?
    Mr. Parkinson: I have not seen that document. I am not prepared to commit myself to supporting it before I have seen it. I usually work on the principle — as do most Ministers — that if something is good enough for my hon. Friend to associate himself with it, it is probably good enough for me.
    Following is the information:
    16

    United Kingdom Visible Trade in Manufactures

    Exports

    Bop basic £ billion Imports

    1977

    25·6

    19·7

    1978

    27·7

    22·7

    1979

    31·0

    28·2

    Note: Figures are given on the preferred balance of payments basis, in which the coverage and valuation of exports and imports are the same.

  Overseas Development

    Ghana
    Mr. Deakinsasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is satisfied with the level of United Kingdom aid to Ghana.
    The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Neil Marten): Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Deakins: Is that Minister aware the Ghana is one of the poorest countries in the Commonwealth? Is he further aware that it has a young and democratic Government, who will be judged in a few years time on the basis of their economic performance? Will he seek to do even more than he has done already to ensure the survival of democracy in that poor Commonwealth country?
    Mr. Marten: I take the hon. Gentleman's point. When resources are available I hope to do as he suggests.
    Mr. Speller: I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Waltham Forest (Mr. Deakins). However, is my hon. Friend aware that many of us feel that when giving aid to countries such as Ghana it is advisable, to a large extent, to attempt to tie that aid to the products of British industry? Is he further aware that, following a recent visit, it has become clear that whereas many nations giving aid tie it specifically to their own products, we have been generous in the extreme and our money is being used to make purchases elsewhere?
    Mr. Marten: I disagree with my hon. Friend. A great part of our bilateral aid is tied to British exports.
    Mr. McElhone: Does the Minister recall that he recently told the Royal Commonwealth Society that his priority was aid to the poorest countries, especially Commonwealth countries? How does he justify the massive 34 per cent. cut in aid to India between September 1979 and 1980? Is that not another case of double standards from the Government?
    Mr. Marten: I regret that this question is about Ghana, not India.

    Zimbabwe
    Mr. Canavanasked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will increase the amount of aid to Zimbabwe.
    Mr. Neil Marten: A substantial programme of aid to Zimbabwe over the next three years is well under way. It is too soon to say what we might do in the future.
    Mr. Canavan: Does the Minister agree that we have a duty to give more aid to Zimbabwe because Britain exploited that country and its people for generations? If the British Government are hard up, why not place an expropriation order on the wealth and property of people such as the Duke of Montrose? Is the Minister aware that he left his son in charge of more than 8,000 acres of land in my constituency while he deserted to Rhodesia to collaborate with the traitor Smith, and then returned to Britain scot-free to take an oath of allegiance in another place?
    Mr. Marten: I do not agree with the basis of the hon. Gentleman's question.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I shall endeavour to make my question a little more relevant than that asked by the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan). Is my hon. Friend aware that Zimbabwe needs people with expertise—technicians and people with other skills? Is he further aware that Britain has a surplus of technicians and people with skills? Will he establish a special programme to encourage people to work under contract for the Government of Zimbabwe, backed by my hon. Friend's Department?
    Mr. Marten: It is for the Zimbabwe Government to make a request for expertise. We have already sent many people to Zimbabwe. A donors' conference is to be held in March, when no doubt a shopping list of requests will be produced.
    Mr. Guy Barnett: Does the Minister realise that the current level of white emigration from Zimbabwe—I do not necessarily refer to emigration to another place—coupled with the reluctance of the banks to indulge in capital investment in Zimbabwe, could result in a serious economic and financial position for Zimbabwe this year?
    Mr. Marten: I suppose that that could happen, but we have done a great deal to help Zimbabwe. We have forgiven £20 million of debt and rescheduled the remainder of the debt that is owing to Britain. We are doing what we can to help.
    Later—
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not contrary to the practice of this House to attack the character or motives of Members of another place?
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is right. I listened carefully, and on balance I thought that the Member of the other place would not have thought much of the attack.

    Institute of Development Studies
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Lord Privy Seal what proposals he has for continuing financial support at a reduced level to the Institute of Development Studies.
    Mr. Neil Marten: For the academic year beginning 1 August the Government intend to provide, in 1981, £895,000, in 1982, £820,000 and in each of the years 1983 to 1985, £755,000, at January 1980 prices.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Is my hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to congratulate him and his right hon. noble Friend the Foreign Secretary on the part that they played in persuading the Government to reverse their earlier decision to phase out support for the next quinquennium?
    Mr. Neil Marten: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. Equally, the Institute of Development Studies should congratulate my hon. Friend on all the hard work that he has contributed to that satisfactory solution.

    European Development Fund
    Mr. McElhoneasked the Lord Privy Seal if he is prepared to open consultations with the EEC on the European development fund.
    Mr. Marten: We already keep in close touch on all important issues with the Commission and other member States, both informally and through the appropriate machinery which deals with the fund.
    Mr. McElhone: Is the Minister aware that on several occasions I have strongly criticised the operation of the European development fund? Is he further aware that I have been informed that the European Court of Auditors has also strongly criticised the operation of that fund? When will he take a stand against that disorganised bureaucracy in Brussels?
    Mr. Marten: We take a constant stand on that issue. We work closely with the Community to ensure that the aid produced by the European development fund is used properly for the best interests of the developing world.
    Mr. Welsh: Is the Minister aware that the money being distributed by the EEC invariably goes to countries that have not been directly connected with Britain or the Commonwealth? As this is a natural growth area in future years, through the EEC, does the Minister think that there should be more consultation to ensure a better and further distribution of money?
    Mr. Marten: Yes, but the position is improving. There has been some criticism that too much money has gone to the Francophone countries. The tropical Africa advisory group of the British Overseas Trade Board recently examined that question and concluded that the main reasons were unfamiliarity of British firms with the European development fund, lack of interest in smaller contracts and an unwillingness to launch into new markets. The ball is very much in the court of British industry to seek out the opportunities.

    Energy Resources
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Lord Privy Seal what will be the approximate disbursements of official aid in the

    19
    current financial year for development of energy resources as between coal, oil, gas, nuclear and renewable sources of energy.
    Mr. Neil Marten: Details of expenditure for the current financial year are not yet available.
    Mr. Hooley: Does the Minister agree that developing countries with few or no assets in the form of hydrocarbons could find that renewable sources are extremely important, namely, solar, wind and tidal power? Will he give an assurance that that will be reflected in the balance of the aid programme that relates to energy help?
    Mr. Marten: I think that that will be the case. Disbursements of project aid on energy projects in 1979 amounted to £34 million, about three-quarters of which went to non-renewable power projects, and the remainder to renewable projects. I hope that that will continue.

    World Food Programme
    Mr. Hardyasked the Lord Privy Seal what contribution will be made by the United Kingdom to the world food programme in 1981–82; and what contribution is being made in the current year.
    Mr. Neil Marten: For 1981–82 no decision has yet been taken. In this financial year we are contributing about £4·2 million in cash and commodities from our pledge for the biennium 1979–80. On top of this we are supplying 50,000 tonnes of cereals to the world food programme's regular activities, 30,000 tonnes to Africa under the international emergency food reserve and £350,000 to the programme for 20 lorries.
    Mr. Hardy: Is it not a fact that in the current year our contribution is a great deal less than that of most countries in Western Europe, and that unless that position improves and a substantial amount of support is given in 1981–82 the description of "shameful" will be justified?
    Mr. Marten: I do not agree with that. The final figure has not yet been agreed. The hon. Gentleman will be made aware of it when it is agreed, and I think that it will be satisfactory.

    Departmental Studies
    Mr. Spearingasked the Lord Privy Seal what the most recent studies of the rural development section of the Overseas Development Administration have been.
    Mr. Neil Marten: Three papers for the world conference on agrarian reform and rural development in 1979, and a paper for the Commonwealth Secretariat in November last.
    Mr. Spearing: I thank the Minister for that reply. I am sorry that he did not mention the topics of the papers. Can he assure the House that this unit will examine specific examples, rather than generalities?
    Mr. Marten: I think that it will examine specific examples, because each country section has now taken the whole concept of rural development on board and a separate administrative unit is no longer necessary. It is widespread throughout the ODA.
    Mr. Guy Barnett: Are the studies to be published?
    Mr. Marten: The three papers for the world conference on agrarian reform and rural development have been published. I assume that the Commonwealth Secretariat paper has also been published.

    BILL PRESENTED
      BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT 1867 (AMENDMENT)
      Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop presented a Bill to transfer from the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Parliament of Canada the function of tendering to the Queen's most Excellent Majesty advice and consent in respect of any Bills amending the provisions of the British North America Act 1867, and amendments thereto in subsequent Acts: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 27 February and to be printed. [Bill 46.]

    STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c
    Ordered,
    That the Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limits) (No. 2) Regulations 1980 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Boscawen.]

Orders of the Day

  Criminal Attempts Bill
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.32 pm
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I welcome the opportunity to bring the Bill before the House today. It makes a number of significant changes in the criminal law which I believe will be generally welcomed. Most notably, it repeals the much criticised suspected persons offence, commonly known as "sus". What may be less generally appreciated but which arguably is of much greater significance is that the Bill also codifies and reforms the present common law of attempt. I shall come to the links between these matters in due course.
  First, I should like to acknowledge the debt that the Bill owes to the work of two bodies—the Select Committee on Home Affairs and the Law Commission. As the House will recall, the Select Committee produced a report in May last year recommending the immediate repeal of "sus". It produced a second report in August criticising me for delaying the implementation of that recommendation. The inclusion in the Bill of a provision to repeal the offence obviously owes a great deal to the Committee's report.
  The Bill also owes a great deal to the work of the Law Commission. Its report on "Attempt, and Impossibility in relation to Attempt, Conspiracy and Incitement" forms the basis of the provision on the law of attempt. That report continued the valuable examination which the Law Commission is making of parts of the common law with a view to enactment in statutory form. The report was a result of many years study by the Law Commission of an important and fairly technical area of the law. We are greatly in its debt.
  It might assist the House if I were to say a little more at this point about the reasons for the Government's decision to repeal "sus" and in doing so to explain the relevance of the Bill's other provisions. I made clear in the debate on 5 June on the Select Committee's report that the Government intended to consider seriously the Committee's recommendation that "sus" should be repealed. Indeed, I accepted that it had established a clear case for making changes in the law. I also made it plain that, in my view, it would not be sufficient to repeal "sus" only to replace it by a similar offence in modern dress.
  The Select Committee considered the offence to be objectionable in principle. It argued that it carried inherently a grave risk that innocent persons could be convicted on the basis of actions which were criminal but in respect of which criminal intent could be imputed. That view was expressed by many who gave evidence to the Committee.
  I emphasise two points. The Committee did not find any evidence that the police—as has been alleged—used the offence in a discriminatory fashion. Indeed, the Committee said clearly in its report that it did not believe that "sus" had been
  "used by the Metropolitan police with a deliberate racial bias".
  Secondly, in spite of the detrimental effect which the offence has undoubtedly had on relations between the
  22
  police and the ethnic minorities, the Committee made it quite clear that it would not have regarded this as sufficient reason for recommending repeal of the offence if it had considered such an offence to be necessary. I accept that there is a good deal of force in the criticisms which have been made of the offence. I also recognise that there are those, including my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Mrs. Knight), who do not share these views. But I believe that the offence has become so widely mistrusted that it is really now in everybody's interest that it should be repealed.
  I should like to make it clear that in reaching this decision I have given the most careful consideration to the views of those who have urged that the offence should be retained. I recognise that a number of police forces have found "sus" useful in enabling them to intervene before crimes have actually been committed. I therefore understand the concern which has been expressed by some about the adequacy of police powers to deal with street crime once "sus" is repealed.
  It would be naive and wrong, I believe, to pretend that there have not been instances in which "sus" has served a useful purpose and would do so again if it were preserved. But I also believe that there has been a tendency among some supporters of the offence to exaggerate both the overal contribution which "sus" has made in preventing crime and, hand in hand with this, to give too little weight to the other powers which the police have at their disposal.
  It is worth repeating at this point that the number of persons proceeded against for "sus" is relatively small—fewer than 3,000 in 1979—and that many forces hardly use the offence at all. These facts cannot be reconciled with the view that—as some would appear to have us believe—"sus" represents the only barrier against a massive increase in street crime.
  What are the other measures which the police can take? Obviously, this must depend on the circumstances of each case. In some instances it may be sufficient simply to make it clear that the person who is the object of suspicion is being observed. In other cases the police can continue discreet observation until the point is reached at which intervention is called for. Where a constable has reasonable cause to suspect that an arrestable offence—which includes theft—is about to be committed he has the power to arrest without warrant the person concerned. If the action is sufficiently far advanced to constitute the commission of an offence or an attempt to commit an offence the appropriate charge can then be laid. In other cases a warning might be given.
  There are also a number of other possible preventive measures, such as the common law power of arrest on reasonable suspicion of a breach of the peace and a power to arrest a person found on enclosed premises. I think that it will be clear even from this brief, and by no means complete, summary of the courses open to the police when they see a person acting suspiciously that it is not the case that the repeal of "sus" will leave the police powerless in such situations.
  Mr. John Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman add to that list something that might be very useful with juveniles? When a person is suspected of being about to commit an offence, if the parents are advised of

  23
  the suspicious behaviour of the child, it might bring them on to the side of the law instead of alienating them, as has happened in the past.
  Mr. Whitelaw: I agree with the hon. Gentleman in one respect, while obviously wanting to consider the details, but anything that involves the parents in the way suggested must be something that this House would thoroughly welcome.
  Having carefully considered the balance that has to be made, the Government do not believe that the objections to "sus" are outweighed by the arguments about the offence as a crime prevention measure. I made it plain, however, in the debate which took place last June that the Government could not agree to the repeal of the offence without considering the possible need for other measures to fill particular limited gaps in the law which might be left by repeal.
  The Select Committee acknowledged that difficulties could arise in some cases in charging attempted theft, but it considered these to be technical difficulties only. It expressed confidence that the Law Commission's report—which had not then been published—would provide a solution.
  The Committee had two particular situations in mind: first, if somebody tampers with a parked car; secondly, if somebody attempts to steal from a pocket which turns out to be empty. In both instances, "sus" may at present be used to make up for deficiencies in the law of attempt. I was able to tell the House, in the debate to which I have referred, that while the Law Commission's proposals would enable a charge of attempted theft to be brought in the empty pocket case they would be unlikely to have any appreciable effect on cases involving interference with parked motor vehicles.
  The difficulty which can arise in cases of the latter kind that it is not always clear precisely what the person intends to do. He may have it in mind to steal the car or its contents, or to take it and drive it away. This difficulty is compounded by the requirement, under the present common law of attempt, that the defendant's actions must be sufficiently close to whatever offence it was that he intended to commit. The Law Commission's proposals do not ease the difficulties concerning the defendant's intention in these circumstances, nor do they remove the need to prove that his actions are sufficiently close to the full offence to constitute an attempt.
  The Select Committee pointed out that "sus" is often used in these circumstances. It is the Government's view that unless other measures are taken the repeal of "sus" would significantly weaken the ability of the law to deal with behaviour of this kind. Clause 9 of the Bill therefore provides for a new offence of unlawful interference with vehicles in a public place.
  I have seen it suggested that the proposed offence is simply "sus" in another form. I cannot accept this for one moment. It is in no sense a catch-all provision. By contrast with "sus", where an undefined range of suspicious conduct is penalised, the new offence is concerned only with overt acts of interference with motor vehicles.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: In intervening, may I first say that my right hon. Friend has in every sense delivered what he promised to deliver? Will
  24
  clause 9 allow the defence that a man was seeking to get into the motor vehicle only because he wanted to sleep there?
  Mr. Whitelaw: I am sure that I would be wise to leave the answer to that question to my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State, who will no doubt deal with it in his reply.
  The other gap in the law which the Select Committee mentioned—concerning attempts to steal from empty pockets—brings me to the links between the repeal of "sus" and the provisions in part I of this Bill concerning the law of attempt. The repeal of "sus" has, of course, given an added dimension to the Law Commission's report. But, even without this, the Law Commission's proposals would have demanded prompt attention.
  Quite apart from their significance in the process of codifying parts of the common law, the proposals offer much-needed clarification and reform. In particular, the difficulty concerning attempts to steal from empty pockets is but one example of a wider problem concerning what are known as "impossible attempts". I hope that one result of setting these matters out clearly in statutory form will be to remove some of the general uncertainty which may have encouraged the use of "sus" when attempted offences might have been charged instead.
  It may be helpful at this point to describe, clause by clause, the main features of this part of the Bill. Clause 1 is the heart of these provisions and I hope, therefore, that the House will bear with me if I explain its purpose in some detail. Subsection (1) defines the mental element and the conduct which are necessary to constitute an attempt to commit an offence. The mental element is defined as an
  "intent to commit an offence to which this section applies".
  This reproduces the wording in the Law Commission's draft Bill and is intended, as the Law Commission made clear, to make no change in the position under the present common law. The conduct which constitutes an attempt is defined as
  "an act which goes so far towards the commission of that offence as to be more than a merely preparatory act".
  This again follows exactly the wording recommended by the Law Commission and is similarly not intended to mark any change of substance in the present requirement of proximity at common law.
  Subsections (2) and (3) in clause 1 are concerned with the vexed problem of impossible attempts. The House will understand that it is with some trepidation that I venture on to a field which I am aware has been much fought over by eminent practitioners in, and commentators on, the law. Indeed, I fear that I may be at some risk of attempting the impossible myself. However, I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend, whom I am most grateful to have beside me, will be able to comment later on any specific points that hon. Members may wish to raise. I shall content myself, therefore, with trying to explain as clearly as I can what the provisions in question are designed to achieve—since I know that some at least will wish to question the policy which they embody—and why they take the form they do. Perhaps I should indicate at this point that the Government, in the new procedure, which I understand will apply to the Bill, and in subsequent Committee stages, will be only too ready to discuss in detail and perhaps make changes in regard to these very complicated parts of the law.
  There may be a number of reasons why it is impossible for a person in a given situation to fulfil his criminal

  25
  purpose. The means that he employs may be inadequate. For example, the gun that the would-be murderer uses may have too short a range. It has never been seriously disputed that in such cases the defendant should be liable to be convicted of attempting to commit the offence. In some other cases—often termed cases of "factual impossibility"—impossibility may stem from the fact that the object of the offence does not exist or is not present. For example, the pocket which the pickpocket puts his hand into may be empty or, unknown to the would-be thief, the item which he proposes to steal may have been removed.
  Before the decision in another place in the case of Haughton v Smith, it had been accepted that a person could be convicted of an attempted offence in such cases. But the dicta in that case were to the contrary, and that is now the position under the present common law. This aspect of the decision in particular has been heavily criticised and the Law Commission was in no doubt—and neither are the Government—that the position prior to Haughton v Smith should be restored. Clause 1(2) therefore provides that a person may be guilty of attempt notwithstanding that some fact exists which renders commission of the full offence impossible.
  A third and even more disputed category of impossible attempts is that in which some essential ingredient specified in the definition of the full offence is lacking. Even if the person concerned completed what he thought he was doing, he would not actually commit the full offence. The sort of case in question may be a little clearer if I give a few examples.
  There is the would-be receiver—the person who handles or attempts to handle goods in the mistaken belief that they are stolen. Those are the bare facts of Haughton v. Smith.
  Another example is the youth who has or attempts to have sexual intercourse with a girl aged 16, in the mistaken belief that she is under age, or the man who goes through a marriage ceremony in the mistaken belief that he is still married in law to his first wife, who, unknown to him, has died.
  Before Haughton v. Smith it was not entirely clear whether a charge of attempt lay in such cases. The decision confirmed that it did not. The Law Commission, however, came to the conclusion that such cases should be brought within the ambit of attempt. Its reasons are set out in its report. But I think it is fair to say that it believed this outcome right, not only on its merits but because it was wary of trying to draft difficult distinctions between the different kinds of impossibility I have mentioned.
  We have given a great deal of thought to the policy which should be adopted in relation to cases of this kind. The differing views held by those who have long studied these questions suggest that it is a matter about which it is perfectly possible for reasonable men, and so, of course, for lawyers, to disagree. I do not believe that there is a correct answer, in the sense that one view is indisputably right. Clearly there are cases—and Haughton v. Smith is a good example—in which one would feel that justice had not been ill served if those concerned had been convicted of an offence. But should it be of a criminal attempt? Equally there are cases in which it would seem unreasonable that a person should even be exposed to the risk of such proceedings, let alone prosecuted.
  But I have found myself coming back each time to the following considerations. I am not convinced that it is
  26
  right to use the law of attempt to extend criminal offences so as to cover behaviour which it is far from certain that Parliament intended to be covered when those offences were drawn up. For example, the offence of handling stolen goods requires that there should be stolen goods. Parliament has not yet said that there would be an offence of handling if a person merely mistakenly believed that there were stolen goods.
  I also have sympathy with the view that such an extension is objectionable on grounds of logic and language. Is it not really a distortion of the concept of attempt to extend it to cases where a person not merely tries to do but succeeds in doing what he intended? For example, is it sensible to hold that a person should be liable to a charge of attempting to have sexual intercourse with a girl under age when he has succeeded in having intercourse with a girl who is above the age of consent?
  While recognising the difficulties which this involves, the Government have nevertheless concluded that it is desirable to draw a distinction between this species of impossible attempt and those attempts with which subsection (2) is concerned. Clause 1(3) therefore seeks to exclude from the ambit of attempt cases in which the result which a person intends to achieve by his act—for example, handling particular goods or having sexual intercourse with a particular girl—is such that no offence would be committed if he achieved that result. As will be clear, these matters are not straightforward and the Government will welcome the close scrutiny which will undoubtedly be given to these subsections during the Bill's passage.
  Clause 2 introduces a refinement into the definition of the mental element. It is necessary, we believe, to deal properly with those offences whose definition requires both that some act is done by the defendant and that some specified state of affairs exists. For instance, the crime of rape requires both that the defendant has sexual intercourse with the woman and that she did not consent. With regard to the act, the appropriate mental element in the case of attempt is obvious: it must be intention. To attempt is to try. But as to the absence of consent—what in clause 2 are called "circumstances"—the question is one of knowledge. What degree of knowledge as to the victim's lack of consent must the defendant have? The working party proposes that where the completed offence required full knowledge of a circumstance, so should the attempt; but where the completed offence could be committed by someone who was only reckless as to whether that circumstance existed, the recklessness should also suffice for the attempt.
  The Law Commission rejected that distinction on grounds of complexity—a decision with which hon. Members may well sympathise—and favoured instead a requirement of knowledge in all cases. But we have come to the conclusion that as a matter of policy the working party's recommendation is to be preferred. Let me illustrate why. A man tries to have sexual intercourse with a woman not caring whether she consents. He does not know that she does not consent: he just does not care. If he succeeds in his attack he may be convicted of rape. If he fails, however, whereas the Law Commission's proposal would mean that he would not be guilty of attempted rape, under the working party's formula he would be convicted. This seems to us the right result; clause 2 puts it into effect.
  The House may be relieved to know that it is unnecessary for me to discuss the remaining clauses at

  27
  similar length. Clause 3 is concerned with procedural matters. Clause 4 provides principally for the mode of trial and penalties.
  Two provisions should be mentioned briefly. Subsection (2) enables a magistrates' court, contrary to usual practice, to try two informations together without the defendant's consent when those informations charge him with the full offence and an attempt to commit that offence. Subsection (3) also confirms that, while it is the function of the judge to decide whether the actions with which the defendant is charged are capable of constituting an attempt, it is the function of the judge to decide whether the defendant's actions actually constituted an attempt. Clause 5 makes similar changes in respect of conspiracies to achieve the impossible as clause 1 makes in respect of impossible attempts. Clause 6 abolishes the common law offence of attempt.
  Subsection (3) also makes it clear that it is possible to charge a person with attempting to commit a summary offence. This is probably not possible under the present common law. The Law Commission considered, however, that although prosecutions would not be common there were some offences in respect of which such a charge should be available.
  The final clause in part I—clause 7, makes a number of technical amendments. Part II—is concerned with the repeal of "sus". Clause 8 repeals the offence itself and clause 9 gives effect to the Government's decision, which I have already explained, to introduce a specific offence penalising interference with vehicles. Part III—clauses 10, 11 and 12—is concerned with formal and procedural matters.
  The Bill deserves a warm welcome from all parts of the House. It fulfils the clear wish of the House, expressed in the Select Committee's report and reflected in the speeches by hon. Members in the debate last June, that "sus" should be repealed, But the Bill also ensures, by closing particular loopholes in the law which would otherwise result, that repeal will not deprive the public of the degree of protection which they have a right to expect. Nor will it, as I have demonstrated, leave the police without adequate powers to satisfy that expectation. The Bill also deserves a warm welcome as a further important step forward in the process of codifying and clarifying the present common law.
  I believe therefore that this is a substantial and constructive piece of legislation, and I hope that the House will speed its passage.
  4 pm
  Mr. Roy Hattersley: The Opposition do not propose to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. I describe our attitude in that neutral, perhaps almost negative, way because of the essentially different positions that we propose to take up regarding different parts of the Bill.
  Of course we accept the need to amend the law of attempt. We greatly welcome the repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824. But we have the strongest reservations about the Bill's proposals concerning interference with motor vehicles, which, we fear will perpetuate many of the features of the old "sus" laws—laws which we regard both as intellectually disreputable and socially disruptive.
  28
  Let me assure the Home Secretary that our objection to them and the parallel that we draw with the "sus" laws is not because we fear that that part of the Bill is a catch-all. Indeed, it is not. Our concern about that part and our criticism of it arises because it depends far too little on actions and far too much on intentions. The debate about the Bill today must concern us and the House with that precise distinction—the distinction between what a man or woman does and what a man or woman intends to do or, more properly, is suspected of intending to do.
  Our attitude to the whole Bill is based on two specific principles. The first I can best describe by quoting the Law Commission, to which I pay a tribute of the sort and, I hope, of the same warmth as that paid by the Home Secretary. It said that it
  "is a fundamental principle of our law that it should not seek to penalise the mere intention to commit a crime."
  Clearly the Opposition endorse that judgment.
  The second principle on which we wish to examine the Bill must, I fear, be described in my own and, therefore, less elegant language. It seems to me that the test whether a crime has been committed should be an objecive test or, at least, as objective a test as is possible in the real world. At least it should be more than one man's judgment about what is going on in another man's mind. I therefore share and endorse the Government's view, as represented in clause 1, that the offence of attempt must involve more than a mere preparatory act. I endorse it by quoting again the Law Commission, which said that an offence must amount to
  "a decision to bring about insofar as it lies within his power … the offence which it is alleged the accused attempted to commit."
  I share the Government's view, although in this it disagrees with the Law Commission, that the crime of attempt is possible even though the attempted crime is in some cases incapable of being carried out. Clearly a man who attempts to steal from an empty pocket—taking the example that the Home Secretary gave in his list—and manifests that attempt by some physical action is guilty of more than intention itself. He has taken positive steps to commit an offence which he believes to be possible. Clearly there must be some action against that overt physical act. In that sense the Opposition and the Government are at one in terms of the definitions of attempt and impossibility.
  On the other hand—here I share the Government's view again—if the attempt, even if it had succeeded, would not have constituted a criminal offence, it seems to me obvious that that should not be prosecutable under the law. It seems to me that it is not possible to prosecute a man for attempting to buy goods which he wrongly believes to be stolen if, had he succeeded in his attempt and had it been discovered that the goods were not stolen, it would not have resulted in his prosecution. An attempt must be related to a crime which, if it had been successfully committed, would itself have constituted a prosecutable offence. Therefore, in general—although no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham), who hopes to serve on the Committee that examines the Bill may have detailed improvements to suggest—the Opposition do not wish to take issue with clauses 1 to 7.
  On the other hand, whilst our attitude to those is the neutral one that I have tried to describe, to the proposal in clause 8—the repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act

  29
  1824—we offer nothing but enthusiastic welcome. The "sus" laws have been with us for far too long. The extraordinary factor about section 4 is that it has survived for so long. Again, I join the Home Secretary in congratulating the Select Committee which brought that law to an appropriate if not speedy end.
  To read section 4 of the Act is to reveal at once its inadequacy—
  "Every suspected person or reputed thief frequenting or loitering about … with intent to commit an arrestable offence … shall be deemed to be a rogue and a vagabond."
  It is clearly not the antique language about which we mainly complain. I understand that some of the words in that sentence which have the greatest antiquity are ignored when charges are brought under the Act. It is not the language of the Act but the circularity of its logic, the subjectivity of the tests by which it is applied and the consequent selectivity of its application, about which we complain.
  The arguments for the retention of "sus" are well known. They are best and most succinctly expressed in the attitude of the Metropolitan Police who, I understand, told the Select Committee:
  "it is essential in the public interest that police retain the power to arrest suspected persons loitering … with intent to commit crime."
  In spite of the apparent strength of that argument and assertion, on the available evidence, whilst the Metropolitan Police regard it as essential for the prevention of crime in their area, it is not so regarded in Birmingham, Bristol, Coventry, Leeds, Newcastle and a whole variety of other towns, cities and police areas where this power is rarely, if ever, used.
  Mr. Percy Grieve: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Birmingham there are local provisions in the byelaws under which this sort of offence is dealt with?
  Mr. Hattersley: There is a whole variety of local provisions in the Metropolitan area as well. If the hon. and learned Gentleman reads the evidence which was presented to the Select Committee he will see that there was a discussion at some length about "sus" being used as an alternative to local provisions. The chief constable of the area that he and I represent talked about the impropriety of using "sus" as an alternative to more appropriate local provisions and other available means of detecting and preventing crime.
  My point is valid that in other police areas the "sus" provisions have not been regarded as necessary. However, even had they been of general application throughout the United Kingdom that would not have justified their retention. To say that
  "it is essential in the public interest that police retain the power to arrest suspected persons loitering … with intent to commit crime."
  begs the essential issue and avoids the essential point. The main issue is the one that I have already described as dominating the whole of the Bill. It is the undesirability of penalising for intent alone and the essentially related problem concerning how such intent is detected and proved.
  To put it simply and crudely, how does a policeman, with the best will in the world and the most honourable intention, decide what is the intent—criminal or otherwise—of a young person who is loitering? I repeat my strongly held view that it is wholly undesirable for the
  30
  law to be dependent on one man's judgment about what is going on in another man's mind. Therefore, on the ground of penalising intent alone, the ending of the "sus" laws must be applauded.
  The idea of penalising the intent to commit a crime carries with it a series of important philosophic implications about the nature of the morality. Politicians are unwise to speculate on such matters, and I have left it to the Select Committee to make a definitive statement about that essentially moral point. Indeed, many of its members were particularly well qualified to deal with such matters. It said:
  "Most law-abiding citizens have occasionally been tempted … but they have controlled their impulses."
  It said that they would have been surprised if it had been the case
  "that their intentions had rendered them liable to prosecution."
  The implications of that judgment are right, and the philosophic objections to "sus" led to a series of practical objections about its consequences. Too often, the burden of proof fell on the defendant. He had to demonstrate that he was innocent. Previous convictions were used to help to secure successful prosecutions. Again, I understand that those convictions were not admissible within the London magistrates' courts area. However, in other areas they were admissible.
  The most telling point about "sus" was made by the chief constable of the West Midlands, Sir Philip Knights, in his evidence to the Select Committee. He said that if it was being used, as many people feared that it might have been used, as an alternative to powers to stop and search, it was an abuse to "sus" procedures. He added that it should not be used to stop people "lurking around", because lurking around was not an offence.
  In London, the "sus" laws have been used too often when it has been thought desirable—for no reason that the House has endorsed—to clear the streets and to send young men packing off home. Perhaps the most obvious and strong objection to "sus" and to what it stands for was contained in the evidence given by a barrister to the Select Committee. He said that young men convicted or charged under the "sus" law invariably made the immediate response that they had not done anything.
  Often such a claim is literally true. They have been prosecuted in the belief that they were about to do something. That cannot be right, because it relies on intentions rather then on attitudes, and because such a law leaves many of the young men prosecuted with a deep sense of grievance. Most of the young men so prosecuted—the statistics show that it is an almost exclusively male offence—have been suspected of contemplating one of two opportunistic street crimes, namely, pickpocketing or purse snatching, or theft of or from a parked car.
  Most of the charges under "sus" have been made within the three police districts of the Metropolitan area, Greater Manchester and Merseyside. I do not wish to speculate about why those police districts employ those practices and why others do not. However, the reason is most likely to be found in tradition rather than in anything else. There is little evidence to suggest that those areas were, on any objective test, in special need of that power. The argument that such power is particularly neccessary in London bears no comparison with what happens in London. The pattern

  31
  of "sus" prosecutions in London varies from district to district and there is no discernible reason why one district should employ such a measure and another should not.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the Metropolitan Police, which has an excellent law department, sent out a force order following the case of Haughton v Smith and instructed station sergeants not to prosecute in the case of the impossible offence? For the most part, that was not done in other police areas and that is one reason why the Metropolitan area used the "sus" laws when others did not.
  Mr. Hattersley: I take the hon. Gentleman's word that that is the reason. However, off hand, I cannot follow the logic of why cases should be pursued in that way. Nevertheless, I stand by my initial remarks, namely, that the tradition of "sus" has dominated decisions on its use. Its tradition is a thoroughly bad reason for using it in one part of the United Kingdom or in one part of the Metropolitan area and not in another.
  Although most of the country can do without such measures, in those areas in which it has been used—particulary the Metropolitan area—enormous damage has been done to community relations. Damage has been done not only to relations with young blacks in the age groups in which incidence usually arises, and to relations with those who have grown to wisdom and maturity, who spend less time on the streets, and who are therefore less vulnerable to this charge, but to relations with the entire community. The community has grown to believe that somehow the law is being used to pick on and penalise them.
  There can be no doubt that the black population in general and the black population of London in particular feel that the "sus" laws bear disproportionately on them. Statistically at least, there can be no doubt that that is true to a degree. The Home Secretary said that the Select Committee had been clear in its statement that there was no intention to discriminate by the Metropolitan Police. We all believe that that is true. The Select Committee was right to say:
  "We do not believe that 'sus' has been used by the Metropolitan Police with a deliberate racial bias. But selective perception of potential offenders is inherent in 'sus'. The repeal of 'sus' will remove such grounds for suspicion as may exist."
  It is that subjective judgment to which we object in general, and its application to the racial minorities that has caused the damage in particular.
  I hope that outright repeal of the "sus" laws will help to improve relations between the police and the minority communities. The abolition of the "sus" laws is a sign of the Government's genuine wish and proper determination to remove all fears of discrimination and of harassment from the mind of the black community, irrespective of how justified and realistic those fears must be.
  While I welcome the repeal of the Vagrancy Act, I must make clear that the criticisms that I am about to make of the rest of the Bill should not be used by anybody—the black community or those who seek to represent it—as an argument to diminish the importance of the repeal of the "sus" laws. The repeal of the "sus" laws is wholly good in itself, and my remarks about clause 9 do not detract from the values and virtues of that part of the Bill.
  Clause 9 is the most unfortunate proposal, not only because of the "sus" implications but because of its
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  intellectual inconsistency with the parts of the Bill that precede it. If the House agrees—as I do—with the Select Committee that it is not in the public interest to make behaviour, interpreted as revealing criminal intent, but equally open to an innocent interpretation, subject to criminal penalties, there is very little to be said in favour of clause 9.
  The proposals contained in clause 9 have been built on one of the most objectionable ingredients in any law of intent. It is concerned with the intention to gain access to a motor vehicle or trailer for a specific purpose or for specific purposes. It is very difficult to reconcile clause 9 with the general statement concerning attempt in clause 1. Clause 1 states that if an act is to constitute an offence it must be:
  "more than a merely preparatory act."
  Something positive needs to be done.
  The Home Secretary may argue—indeed, he half did argue—that the clause 9 offence requires some actual literal interference with a vehicle—for example, tampering with a door handle, as the right hon. Gentleman said, in Birmingham in the summer. The world is full of boys and young men who tamper with car door handles and interfere with vehicles without any malicious or criminal intent, who do not intend to gain access to a vehicle or anything carried in it, who do not propose to steal it or to steal from it and, indeed, who do not even propose to sleep in it.
  I understand that under clause 9 if a youth were seen in New Palace Yard touching the Cadillac which is owned by an hon. Gentleman who sits on the Government Benches, a policeman who observed him touching that vehicle would have to decide whether he was touching it, manipulating its handles, running his fingers along the paintwork and looking in through its windows out of interest, reverential awe or with the intention of gaining access to it. I regard that as a wholly unreasonable obligation to place upon a prosecuting officer. The offences which might be prosecutable under clause 9 also involve actions which could have wholly innocent interpretations.
  I understand that we have clause 9 because of the Home Secretary's view that something specific needs to be done about motor vehicles. In Birmingham on 11 July the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "there may still be some activities, in respect of which 'sus' is sometimes used now, which ought to remain within the ambit of the criminal law … There is probably a case for certain specific provisions, such as tampering with car door handles."
  The difficulty about the Home Secretary's provision is that he does not want to penalise tampering with car door handles; he wants to make it an offence to tamper with car door handles for specific purposes. Therefore, mind reading is again involved. Mind reading is wholly undesirable and, in our view, wholly unnecessary in this context.
  Section 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1972, as again the Select Committee made clear, makes it an offence punishable by fine to
  "get on to the vehicle or tamper with the brake or other part of its mechanism".
  I am advised that that Act could easily be amended and extended to cover the specific problems to which the Home Secretary referred.
  If that is impossible—no doubt we shall be told later whether I am right or wrong—I can see no reason why we could not have a Bill which introduced specific offences

  33
  which do not require the degree of subjective judgment which is inherent in clause 9. I object to that because, as the Select Committee said in its fourth report
  "Opinions as to the extent to which an innocent interpretation can reasonably be placed on attempts to open a succession of car doors will depend on the circumstances of the case."
  That is exactly the danger on clause 9—the need for interpretation of every action and the necessity to form a judgment on what a suspected person intends to do.
  The only good thing to be said about clause 9 is that it applies only to motor cars, not to handbags. Thus, "sus" is genuinely and completely removed from the range of offences where it did so much harm to community relations. Our regret is that the concept of intent and the need for proximity to action has not been completely removed from the Bill.
  Had clause 9 not appeared, or had it appeared in a more positive, precise and specific fashion, we would have welcomed the Bill with enthusiasm. As it is, hope that it will get a Second Reading, but it will pass without the full-hearted and formal consent of the Opposition.
  4.25 pm
  Mr. Percy Grieve: I shall not take up the comments of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), save to say that I found his attack on clause 9 completely unrealistic. I shall return to that matter in a few minutes when I discuss part II of the Bill.
  I have unreserved approval for part I. The Bill defines "attempt" in broad terms which closely follow those proposed by the Law Commission and which will make it easier for judges when they have to direct juries in this difficult area of the law.
  The law relating to attempt has been bedevilled in the past, as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary indicated in his cogent presentation of this part of the Bill, by the law relating to impossibility, by varying judicial decisions and by the difficulty which any judge had of explaining attempt to a jury in language which it was easy for the jury to assimilate and understand in sometimes very short cases. Therefore, I commend that part of the Bill dealng with the extension of the law of attempt to an attempt to do that which is impossible—for example, attempting to pick an empty pocket, as illustrated by my right hon. Friend—and that part dealing wih conspiracy in the same regard.
  I should like, in passing, to commend the work of the Law Commission in general. In recent years the Law Commission has made an important contribution to the modernisaion and rationalisation of our law, and many of its recommendations have already been passed into law by Parliament.
  Part I presents no difficulty for me, and I am glad to commend it in every possible way.
  I have grave reservations about part II. In view of the recommendations of the Select Committee last year and of what has been said by my right hon. Friend and by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook, I recognise that I may find myself in a minority this afternoon. However, I should be failing in my duty to Parliament and to those I represent if I did not express my grave reservations about part II.
  I am aware, as any lawyer and as any responsible citizen must be, of the drawbacks of the "sus" law. I have carefully followed the sustained campaign that has been maintained against it in recent years. I am acutely aware
  34
  that it is an exception to the general principles of our law that, save in exceptional circumstances, the prosecution does not adduce a man's previous convictions and that the amount of objective evidence required from the prosecutor is small in relation to the proof of intent, to which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook drew attention. It is an anomaly. But it is an anomaly that has long been justified by circumstance and is more justified by circumstance today than in the past.
  The Vagrancy Act 1824 was passed because of the grave incidence of street crime in nineteenth century London. But today street crime in London and in our other cities is on a scale which could not have been imagined at that time. In 1979, there were over 11,000 cases of robbery and theft with violence on the streets of London alone. I therefore ask whether this is the time to repeal a branch of the law which is protective and preventive.
  In general, our criminal law is designed to enable the police to detect crime when it has been committed and to bring the criminals to justice. This law was clearly designed to prevent the commission of crime, in the sense that suspected persons—that is, persons who were doing acts which the police found to be suspicious, who were known to be criminals, and who had criminal convictions—could be prevented from pursuing any nefarious purpose any further by being run in as rogues and vagabonds, to use the rather picturesque language of the Act.
  I appreciate that here there is an anomaly in the law. I recognise the sincerity of those who believe that this has had an adverse effect upon community relations in our great cities. However, I am not sure—statistics cannot help us here—that the fact that a disproportionately large number of coloured young people have been proceeded against under section 4 of the Vagrancy Act does not proceed from the fact that one has the impression—I put it no higher, and I am using my words carefully, because I do not want to use any words which could conceivably exacerbate race relations—that a disproportionately large number of offences of violence and robbery are committed by young coloured people. That is the impression that one gains in the Crown court.
  If that is so, should we not look to an educative process among those people—my words are deliberately vague—rather than remove one of the lines of protection of the innocent citizen going about his business on our streets?
  Mr. Edward Lyons: The hon. and learned Gentleman says that he is using his words carefully. Is he not aware that crime statistics indicate that Asian youths commit far fewer offences of violence than people with a whiter skin? Secondly, is it not right that many of these offences could still be prosecuted as attempts but that the only reason why they are prosecuted as such is that there is no trial by jury, and the matter can be disposed of quickly in the magistrates' court?
  Mr. Grieve: I am happy to agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman's first point. Perhaps I did not use my words as carefully and with as much definition as I should. It is mostly, I fear, the West Indian youths who are responsible for the type of crime in the numbers that I have indicated. Certainly, I am happy to confirm that Asian youths are usually not involved.
  On the second part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's intervention, I shall be happy to develop my argument

  35
  further. However, I believe that even with the extended law of attempt, and even with clause 9, with the abolition of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act, the public will be denied some of the protection to which they are entitled. It is to that matter that I shall devote the rest of my remarks.
  I welcome clause 9. The attack upon it by the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook was wholly unrealistic. The type of event envisaged in clause 9 is one with which those of us who practise in the courts are all too familiar. It is not a matter of one individual looking at one motor car; it is an individual going round many motor cars, trying the handles to see whether they have been left unlocked and, if so, helping himself to whatever portable valuables may be inside.
  The right hon. Gentleman attacked the necessity, as it were, to prove intent. Of course, intent is an element in this offence as it is in almost every criminal offence, and in every case it has to be proved. Juries try the question of intent every day of the week by all the surrounding circumstances.
  Mr. Hattersley: So that the rest of the debate may not continue on a false understanding of clause 9, will the hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that clause 9 refers to "motor vehicles", in the singular? It is not a matter of attacking, approaching, or interfering with a series of vehicles, as he says. A single vehicle will technically suffice.
  Mr. Grieve: Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that a matter of this kind will be tried by a justice and a finding of guilty brought in on the evidence of one vehicle alone? In my view, that is highly unlikely. There is a strong likelihood that the evidence adduced in the cases which are prosecuted will be that of interference with a series of vehicles. That is why I suggested that the right hon. Gentleman's reflections on clause 9 were completely unrealistic.
  Mr. Douglas Hogg: My hon. and learned Friend has defended clause 9. I am in favour of a clause similar to clause 9. But would not he agree that the intent proscribed by the Bill is too wide in that, for example, it includes people who want to sleep in the car, or to move the car for the purpose of enlarging a parking space? Would it not be better if the clause were redrawn so as to provide that the prohibited intent should be the intent to commit an arrestable offence?
  Mr. Grieve: That is a valid point which should be considered in Committee. I should like to consider the matter further at that stage.
  I turn to the question of the repeal of section 4, and to the extent to which the two purposes of the Bill, or ways, as it were, of recompense or cover for what was covered in section 4 do not sufficently protect the citizen. I join issue with my right hon. Friend on the repeal of section 4.
  Clearly the extension of the law of attempt will, to some extent, compensate for and enable the police to proceed in cases where they could not have proceeded before, and where they might have had to proceed under section 4. It is clear also that clause 9 will cover many cases in which previously people would have been proceeded against under section 4 of the Vagrancy Act. But there is one type
  36
  of case that deeply concerns me. Many of the robberies on the streets of London and other cities—many thefts of handbags, the knocking down of women, elderly and disabled people, and the taking from them of portable valuables—are committed by persons who, for that purpose, are prowling the streets, lurking in the shadows, and ready to pounce upon innocent citizens going about their lawful business.
  The right hon. Member for Sparkbrook said, in a jocular fashion—I hope that he will forgive me if I paraphrase his words, but I think I paraphrase him accurately—"Thank heavens we have not got a clause 9 relating to handbags." It is for the woman who is out in the street carrying a handbag that I am worried. If section 4 is abolished, I do not believe that there will be sufficient protection for the ordinary citizen going about his business. Only when the police know the convictions of the person or can see from suspicious activities that he is lurking for no good purpose can he be run in under section 4.
  In the future, the police will be obliged to wait until the crime has actually been committed. I do not think that that is good enough. That was the view which the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis expressed to the Select Committee. I have not the honour of serving on the Select Committee. I have the greatest respect for most of the hon. Members serving on that Committee, and a high regard—[Interruption.] I do not have it for all of them: it is no use my pretending that I have. There is one on the Opposition Benches at present for whom I have none.
  I believe that in making this recommendation the Select Committee has not had regard to the reality and the necessity of protecting innocent people on the streets of our great cities. I hope very much that as this Bill proceeds in Committee it will be possible to plug this loophole by providing some further clause which will protect the innocent citizen against the night prowler.
  If the Bill goes through and section 4 is repealed—I have no doubt that it will be—it will diminish the protection which the citizen is entitled to expect from the Government. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary knows, in almost everything the present Government have my full support. I regret very much that on this matter I should be at issue with my right hon. Friend, but I have to speak my mind and to say what I believe, along with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and the evidence that he gave last year—that it is an error, without further provisions, to repeal section 4.
  In saying that, I think that I am within the sense of the Home Office working party which was set up by Mr. Reginald Maudling in 1971 and which reported in 1974. It said:
  "an offence on the lines of the existing offence of being a 'suspected person' in section 4 of the 1824 act is still necessary to deal with behaviour which falls short of any other criminal offence or of an attempt to commit an offence, but which the public interest nevertheless requires to be punishable. Such an offence is likely to be necessary even if the scope of the law on attempts is widened."
  With those sentiments, I am in complete agreement.
  Therefore, whilst welcoming part I of the Bill, I regret very much, in its present terms, the repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act in part II.
  4.42 pm
  Mr. A. J. Beith: I do not share the conviction of the hon. and learned Member for Solihull

  37
  (Mr. Grieve) that this Bill diminishes the protection available to the citizen. The hon. and learned Member only had to describe the circumstances in which he would find the use of the old "sus" law desirable to reveal just how objectionable and unsatisfactory it is to conceive that someone should be arrested merely for loitering, on the basis of a supposition, which is impossible to prove, about what he might be about to do.
  One of the Bill's many welcome features is that it is in part a consequence of the work of the Select Committee on Home Affairs and its recommendations to the House. It is one of the first fruits of the new Committee system of the House of Commons, and I think that it is to be welcomed particularly for that.
  The complaints about the "sus" law go back very much longer than either the Home Affairs Committee or even the arguments about minority communities which have featured in the discussions in recent years. They go back at least 50 years. There have been authoritative criticisms of the "sus" law over a very long period. But in recent years it has been among young black people in about three police areas that the criticisms have focused, because that is where the use of the provisions has been.
  A law whose basic fairness is widely doubted, and not merely by those against whom it is used, is really no basis for a relationship of trust between the police, who have to enforce the law, and the community. The Select Committee said:
  "We do not consider that the public interest is best served by an offence which leaves a significant proportion of those convicted with a sense that their conviction was unjust."
  Lord Avebury put this case to the other place from the Liberal Benches in a Bill in 1978. At that time he was opposed by the then Labour Government. He was opposed from the Government Front Bench by Lord Harris of Greenwich, who adduced many objections, more far reaching than anything to which the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has referred today, and saw far more gaps which needed to be filled than either the Home Secretary or the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley).
  Since then we have had the Select Committee report and the Law Commission's report, and there is now a very wide consensus of opinion, excluding only a few hon. Members, that "sus" must go and that the repeal of these provisions is long overdue.
  What will replace "sus" is a Bill which contains a codification and modification of the law of attempt, plus a new provision about tampering with motor cars. The Law Commission clearly regarded the concept of attempt as something which could be described in everyday English which people easily understand. I wish that that could be said of the Bill as a whole. I think that the Home Secretary probably echoed wider feelings in explaining his difficulties in defining and interpreting some of the Bill's features. It is quite difficult to conceive what constitutes more than a merely preparatory act. I think that the average man would have some difficulty with that. The whole area of "impossible offences" raises the same problems of knowing precisely what the Bill means.
  Mr. Grieve: Is it not a very much better definition than that which is habitually used nowadays—"a proximate act"?
  Mr. Beith: Yes. On the word "attempt" alone, I think that the Law Commission was right. All I am saying is that it found difficulty in extending the principle very far beyond the title of the Bill.
  Interestingly, the Government have adopted the cautious view, one might even say that it is the soft view, on one of the problems to which the Law Commission addressed itself—things which do not turn out to be offences at all. The Home Secretary produced a few rather devastating examples of these. I should like to offer as another example the case of someone who attempts an offence involving drugs and it turns out that the commodity being handled is some harmless substance and not a drug at all. I agree with almost all hon. Members who have taken the view that the Government are right not to proceed in an area fraught with as many difficulties as this one is.
  I should like to concentrate a few remarks on the replacement provision concerning interference with a motor vehicle, which comes in the latter part of the Bill. Is it not remarkable that the one great gap which must be filled when the "sus" law is repealed, according to the Government, is that of motor cars? The one great gap which the 1824 Act fills is the protection of the relatively recent invention of the motor car. In saying that, I do not wish to deny that there is some scope for provision to protect motor vehicles and to ensure that the kind of offence which the Home Secretary has in mind can be dealt with. I agree with him that it is clearly very much better to have a specific offence capable of objective test than any kind of intention. It is much to be preferred. He has set out to achieve such a test in the Bill. Clearly, interfering with a motor car is something which a witness can say someone did. I think that the provisions have within them the seed of something acceptable.
  Clearly, however, there are many circumstances in which merely to have tried the door handle of a motor car should not put one in jeopardy of coming before the courts for a criminal offence. One or two examples have been mentioned already, but let me enlarge on the example of someone who tries the door handle of a motor car with a view to seeing whether he can identify the owner because the car is in an obstructive position, obstructing either an access or a parking place, or preventing him from moving his own car. Therefore, he sees whether the car door is locked as a means of seeing whether the owner is likely to be near at hand. Perhaps he can see on the seat of the car something from which he can identify the owner and perhaps discover whether he is in a nearby building. There is a variety of circumstances—
  Mr. Douglas Hogg: There is an interesting corollary to the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Clause 2(9) provides the defence that the owner consents. But if the person was opening the car door with a view to identifying the driver in order to have him prosecuted for a traffic offence, we may take it that the driver would not consent and thus an offence would be made out.
  Mr. Beith: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman helpfully anticipates my argument. In my view, the defence under clause 2 is not a sufficient one. Many owners would not have consented to the car being opened at all. They would have been even less likely to consent had they thought that the person might then decide to move the car—to "bounce" it, in the phrase that is sometimes used, if the

  39
  key could not be found—or if they thought, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, that the matter might go even further and prosecution might result.
  Clearly there are circumstances which need to be examined at a later stage and which take these provisions very much wider than what the Home Secretary has in mind and has sought to protect as can be seen from the wording of the Bill. My hon. Friends and I are not happy about the provisions so far. We are dealing with an offence for which the accused is liable to summary conviction. The protection of a trial by jury will not be available.
  Having made those few reservations about that provision, I should point out that if the Bill goes through with all the other provisions in it the police will not only have powers to deal with attempted offences; they will also retain many existing powers to stop and search people on reasonable suspicion. We therefore certainly do not need to add to the Bill. I merely suggest that we modify it a little.
  The powers that the police already have to stop and search people must be used with the greatest of care. It is sometimes forgotten that it is in the day-to-day exercise by the police of their discretion that much of the distinction between a police State and a free country consists. For those who pursue controversial constitutional cases to the limit, the distinction may repose in the written law and in the constitutional remedies available, but for most ordinary citizens in Britain the difference between our happy position as a free country and the feeling of being in a police State which exists in a number of other countries lies in the fact that most of the time the police do not go about their business by constantly stopping and searching people, or appearing to suggest that people are about to commit criminal offences. It is upon that exercise of discretion that much of the feeling and ethos of freedom in Britain depends. More important, therefore, even than the letter of the law, in this and in other matters, is the way in which the police exercise the provisions.
  It is clear that at least some of the anxiety and hostility which grew out of the "sus" law must have grown out of a feeling that it was being extensively and unfairly used. Its removal will not of itself solve the community relations problems which were highlighted and to some extent exacerbated by instances of its use. Indeed, the Select Committee warned that the direct results of repeal may come as a disappointment, pointing out that repeal could do no more than create a marginally more favourable climate for improvements in the relationship between the police and the black community. Those problems, to which "sus" was merely an irritant, can only be solved by other means.
  One of the most important factors in such improvements is community policing—the presence within the community of policemen who know their area and the people in it, and who are known and respected in the community. Sometimes that presence needs to be backed up by the presence of rather more uniformed police. I turn to the examples that have been quoted and to the question of what a policeman should do when he sees people who he thinks may be about to commit offences, to rob or to mug. One thing he can do is to show that he is there. In areas where there is a great deal of trouble of this kind one of the most important things that the police can do is simply to make their presence seen by
  40
  people who know that if they are spotted doing those things they will be prosecuted for an offence, and by citizens who want the assurance of knowing that the police are present with them. I therefore welcome attempts to strengthen the police force and to make larger numbers available. But we also want to see policemen present in larger numbers on the beat and in the community.
  The second area in which problems will have to be solved is one with which the House will have to grapple on many other occasions in the present Session, namely, the problem of unemployment, which bears particularly heavily upon young black people. When young people are seen loitering on the streets, one reason why they are there may be that they have no jobs.
  I say that as a Member from the North-East of England. Anyone going to the North-East in the 1930s, or indeed to some parts of the North-East now, would notice immediately numbers of men standing about at the street corners. If we had full employment, one might have wondered what they were doing. They are there because they have no jobs to go to. They are fed up with sitting in the house. If they are young men, they want to be out of their mothers' way. Even if they are married men, they do not want to be in the house all day. So they go to the street corners and talk with other men about their position. That happens to white British citizens in areas in which there is no great immigrant population. Much the same is true of many young black people who are to be seen on the atreets in our inner cities. A very much higher proportion of them is unemployed than is the case among the population at large. Unless we can solve the problem of unemployment, these difficulties will remain with us.
  I do not believe that repeal of the "sus" law will of itself solve the problems faced by the police and the community in these respects. We must tackle those problems in other ways. But these provisions are none the less welcome.
  4.56 pm
  Mr. John Wheeler: I am particularly glad to be able to speak so early in the debate, not least because, to me, as Chairman of the Sub-Committee on Race Relations and Immigration of the Home Affairs Committee which was charged with the investigation of the Vagrancy Act offence, the Bill is the wholly welcome fulfilment of a Select Committee investigation. I am sure that I can say on behalf of all members of the Select Committee on Home Affairs that the repeal of the "sus" offence is particularly to be welcomed, not least because of the very wide measure of agreement among those who gave evidence to the Committee on their objections to the continuance of the offence on the criminal law statutes.
  First, I welcome the way in which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary introduced the debate. I thank him for his sympathy and for the early review of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824. It is perhaps worth reminding the House that the Select Committee began the investigation of the Vagrancy Act because of the widespread concern in the community as a whole about the character of the charge and the fact that it was seen or believed to be bearing unjustly upon the minority community in England and Wales.
  I am particularly glad to associate my name with the statements made in the House today that there is no adverse reflection upon the police, and particularly the

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  Metropolitan Police, for the way in which they have discharged their duty. As the Select Committee said in its report:
  "The most powerful argument against 'sus' is that it is a fundamentally unsatisfactory offence in principle. It is not generally acceptable in English law to exact penalties for forming a criminal intention. The intending criminal has usually to carry out some act as an attempt to implement his intention."
  That is the basic reason why this law is so unsatisfactory. That is why many people, including many distinguished lawyers, have for many decades opposed the continuance of this charge under the criminal law. Indeed, some of the most compelling evidence to the Select Committee was that submitted by the chairman of the Criminal Bar Association and by the lay justices of the peace—two groups of people, one of which is responsible for both prosecuting and defending, the other for judging guilt or innocence. Those two groups of witnesses were overwhelming in their opinion that section 4 of the 1824 Act should be removed from the statute book.
  There will undoubtedly be a gain in the repeal of section 4 for police-community relationships. The number of charges brought under section 4 in England and Wales is fewer than 3,000, and about 50 per cent. arise in the Metropolitan Police district. A good proportion relate to white youths. However, the minority communities, particularly in London, felt that the "sus" charge was unjustly used against them. However, I, too, emphasise that the repeal of section 4 is not the whole answer. The answer rests in enhancing the contact between the police and the community, and particularly in encouraging members of ethnic minority communities to join the police service and participate in the policing of the community in which they reside. I am particularly glad to learn that the number of ethnic minority members joining the Metropolitan Police is gradually increasing, but it is still inadequate if minority communities in London are to believe by the evidence of their own eyes that the Metropolitan Police are truly representative of all the citizens of London.
  The effect on crime prevention has already been referred to. The truth again is that the section 4 charge is rarely used in England and Wales. Broadly speaking, it is generally used within the Metropolitan Police area, but even there the Select Committee found that its use was often confined to a few divisions or districts. I do not believe that the public will be at greater risk as a result of its repeal.
  It is of interest to examine the type of crimes that led to a charge under section 4, which broadly speaking fall into two parts—charges against youths in particular who attempt to take away a motor vehicle, and persons who attempt to steal from a handbag or purse, particularly in the high street and supermarket areas of the capital. Section 4 has rarely been used in connection with a charge of robbery or, as it is more popularly known, mugging, which is essentially a crime of stealth and occurs in a fleeting moment, when the victim and those about him in the street have their attention divertd elsewhere. It is extremely rare for section 4 to be used in connection with an attempt to commit robbery.
  Mr. Grieve: Is my hon. Friend alive to the point that the use of section 4 may well operate to prevent such an offence? Obviously it would not be used after such an offence had been committed.
  Mr. Wheeler: I am grateful for that intervention. However, I contend that, since the crime of robbery is essentially one of stealth, it is impracticable for any police officer to make use of section 4 as a means of preventing it. If we intend to prevent street robbery, we need uniformed police officers on duty in the parts of an urban area where the crime is prevalent. I do not accept therefore that the repeal of section 4 will in any way inhibit the ability of the police to prevent robbery or other serious crimes.
  I welcome the proposals in the Bill to deal with the purse issue, which the Law Commission report has very adequately recommended. It is common sense to include that issue within the common law.
  The point at which some contention arises is with clause 9 and the proposal to introduce a new criminal charge to deal with interference with motor vehicles or trailers. Generally speaking, I accept the purpose behind the clause. I do not believe for one moment that it is in any sense an attempt to reintroduce the "sus" law under another name. The differences are clear.
  Under clause 9 it will be necessary for the prosecution to prove to the court that the accused person had made a distinct move towards the commission of a criminal offence. It will not rest upon the interpretation of the behaviour of the accused and what is supposedly in his mind.
  Mr. George Cunningham: I believe that I heard the hon. Gentleman say that under clause 9 it would be necessary to show that the accused had made a move towards the commission of a criminal offence. If he looks at clause 9 more carefully, he will find that it is not necessary to intend to commit a criminal offence—the point already made by the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg). Having access or entry to a car or trying to discover whether one can get access or entry is not a criminal offence. Therefore, in this narrow but important respect, what is being done is to make certain behaviour criminal which was not criminal under "sus", a point which I hope the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the Committee will regard as important.
  Mr. Wheeler: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I was about to say that the House clearly has some concern about the interpretation of clause 9. It is clear to me that what the Home Secretary intends is that the public shall be protected and the police shall have adequate powers to deal with those cases in which a person or persons are seeking to commit what the public would regard as a criminal act by stealing from a motor vehicle or removing that motor vehicle or attempting to do so. However, there could be other interpretations arising from the way that clause 9 is presently drafted. I accept the comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg). He has made a point that needs to be carefully explored by the Standing Committee.
  Subject to the reservation that the Committee will review clause 9 and that the offence that is subsequently recommended to this House will suffice and meet the Home Secretary's point, I concur with the Bill and give it my support. The main purpose of the Select Committee's work was to bring about the repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824. I therefore particularly welcome the Bill and commend it to the House for what it intends.
  5.8 pm
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: I, too, welcome clauses 1 to 7, but I have some questions for the Home Office. We need some clarification. I am not a lawyer. I am of that happy breed who ask questions and watch lawyers acting.
  About 89 per cent. of my area consists of local authority dwellings. The police are not entitled to enter those council estates. We have had rows and arguments over that for many years. It was only in the time of Sir Robert Mark that we were able to obtain from him a tacit agreement that in certain areas—and mine was one—his police officers would show a presence on council estates now and again, provided that they were not used as council caretakers. Generally police officers are not allowed to enter the larger part of my constituency because it consists of housing estates.
  We have heard clause 1 praised and we have heard the Home Secretary talking about the problems of attempt. However, if this is good for the population at large, why will it be refused to my constituents who live on council estates? Is the right hon. Gentleman proposing that clause 1 shall apply to every area of constituencies such as mine which include large council estates? That is an important question because one of the areas where I have maximum problems, certainly muggings, is council estates. The police can be called only after the commission of crimes, after my constituents have been hurt, when the police have the impossible task of trying to find the assailant. It should be made clear that the police will be able to maintain surveillance on those estates as they do in other parts of my constituency.
  I have some difficulty in understanding how far the Government feel that the corrobrative evidence provisions in clause 3(2)(f) can be applied. In many circumstances there will be no evidence to corroborate the evidence of the person who saw the attempted crime. With a rigid application of subsection (2)(f) will few offenders be apprehended, not because they were not seen to have committed an offence but because there is no corroborative evidence? I presume that fingerprints and instruments used in connection with the crime or offence can be used as corroborative evidence, but many of those offences set out in clause 9 can be committed when wearing gloves and other forms of protection which would not leave corroborative evidence. Will subsection (2)(f) allow people to be apprehended, or will it be impossible, because of its requirements, to stop such acts taking place.
  I turn briefly to the question of the "sus" law. Like so many other right hon. and hon. Members, I am delighted that section 4 is being abolished. But in saying "good riddance", we have a problem in London. Often there has been an outcry against the "sus" laws in London, when in reality the powers used are those contained in section 66 of the Metropolitan Police Act 1839. That states that a constable may stop and detain any person in a public place whom he suspects to be in possession of stolen property or in possession of property "unlawfully obtained". The phrase "public place" is the reason why the police will not go on to the council estates. It is by that method, of the stop, search and detain law, that the Metropolitan Police operate. But the unitiated see very little difference between the operation of the stop, search and detain law under section 66 of the Metropolitan Police Act and the operation of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act.
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  The figure for the Metropolitan Police district of those stopped under the section 4 procedure was only 0·56 per cent., but the general feeling in London is that it was much higher. When the figure of 0·56 per cent. of all arrests is quoted, nobody believes that that number arrested under the "sus" laws is correct. The majority of the others were detained under the stop, search and detain procedure under section 66. I support the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler), who said that he thought that on enactment of the Bill there may be some disappointment among those who believe that repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act will eliminate all the hassle. In fact, the use of section 66 will continue to give rise to accusations that the "sus" laws are still in operation.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The Committee made that point, but it is important to recognise that the stop and search provision is simply that, and that there is no offence unless the stop and search procedure reveals evidence of another offence. Therefore, that materially differs from section 4, under which a person may be brought before the courts and convicted on what is no more than suspicion.
  Mr. Brown: That is right; I accept it. But the man who is stopped at 2 o'clock in the morning and dealt with in that way feels slightly differently. He does not see the sophistication of my hon. Friend's point. Individuals feel that the "sus" laws are being applied against them, even though, as my hon. Friend has illustrated, they are not. There is a substantial difference.
  The term "loitering" is still being used under section 6 of the Vagrancy Act 1824, as well as under the Penal Servitude Act 1891. Will those sections still apply on enactment? Will people be apprehended for loitering under those Acts? If so, is the Home Secretary satisfied that the argument of the "sus" laws will not be continued in a different guise? Is he satisfied that he has taken every action he can to ensure that people understand what the new law will be?
  Will the Home Secretary say why the Bill contains powers of arrest by a constable only? Under section 66 of the Vagrancy Act and under the Penal Servitude Act any person, which includes the police, has the power to arrest. If any person arrests an offender, a police officer must take him into custody or face court action. Is the Home Secretary saying that that provision is still in being? Although the Bill refers only to a constable, is the Minister implying that any person can make an arrest?
  I have some doubts, like so many hon. Members, about clause 9. Tampering with motor vehicles is adequtely dealt with in section 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1972, which clearly lays down:
  "If, while a motor vehicle is on a road or on a parking place provided by a local authority, a person otherwise than with lawful authority or reasonable cause gets on to the vehicle or tampers with the brake or other part of its mechanism, he shall be guilty of an offence."
  The Bill changes that substantially, in that it refers only to "a public place". Why is the Home Secretary eliminating the council parking areas in my constituency? They are just as relevant as any other part. In using the words "a public place" in clause 9 the Home Secretary is eliminating the argument for section 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1972. Why has he done that? Why has he not included the words "local authority" in exactly the same way?

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  I welcome the Bill generally. It is an attempt to achieve some advance, but I hope that my questions will be answered, because they are very important for my constituency.
  5.20 pm
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I should like to start with some felicitations. The first goes to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) on his emergence as Shadow Home Secretary. I am sorry that he is not here to hear me say this, as he is an old colleague of mine in the House. I hope that his new position will enable him to adopt a suitably Left-wing position on social issues, so that he may keep a suitably Right-wing position on economic and defence matters.
  In particular, I also very much welcome the appointment of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) as Minister of State, Home Office. I hope that I may be allowed to say that "Prior's loss is Whitelaw's gain." When I recall my hon. and learned Friend's admirable handling of the legislation in his previous Department, I can well understand why in his speech this afternoon my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said how grateful he was to have my hon. and learned Friend to deal with what could be a somewhat complicated Committee stage.
  Thirdly, in this agreeable mood, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the fact that he has got into the habit, as a senior Minister, of keeping his promises. He promised the West Indian community before the election that he would have a good look at "sus" with a view to seeing whether it should be removed; and he kept that promise. In the Queen's Speech and in the debate on the Select Committee report my right hon. Friend said that he had been persuaded that "sus" should go, and in the Bill, with the support of my hon. and learned Friend and of the House, he will get rid of it. I think that that is right. In addition, in response to speeches that I and others made on this matter, my right hon. Friend said that he would not remove "sus" unless he could put in its place something that was less offensive but that would be no less effective in securing the maintenance of law and order. I believe that in the Bill he has got the balance just about right.
  I am bound to say—here I declare an interest—that the Police Federation would have preferred "sus" to remain. That is particularly true of the Metropolitan Police. I hope that no hon. Member will underestimate the value of the experience of the police in this matter, for they are at the sharp end and have to deal with the problem. But although I declare an interest I believe, dissenting from the view of the Metropolitan Police, that on balance it is right for Parliament to take "sus" off the statute book and to put the Bill in its place.
  I should like briefly to make three points. First, the problem that we are dealing with is largely street crime. I have with me, as no doubt a number of my colleagues do, the report of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary and the report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. Street crime is a major social offence. It deeply disturbs large numbers of elderly, lonely and handicapped people who are knocked about and who become frightened. They rightly look to the police not merely to try to bring prosecutions when the offences have been committed but, if possible, to prevent them. It is with the prevention of the large numbers of street crimes that the House should mainly be concerned today.
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  Secondly, whilst I think that "sus" should go, there is a problem of loitering with intent. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), the spokesman for the Liberal Party, was at sea when he talked about young people loitering because they were unemployed. That is not an offence. It is a matter that we all regret. The offence is that of loitering with intent. It is precisely because intention is at issue today that the Bill is called what it is: it is a Bill to do with attempted crime.
  There is nothing more frustrating for police officers or ordinary citizens than to have reason to believe that a certain person has committed a series of offences and to have evidence that suggests inferentially that that person may be guilty but to be unable to prove it to the point where they will be justified in bringing a charge. In many of the neighbourhoods of our big cities elderly people who may be a little confused will often allege that it is Mr. X who stole a handbag or broke into a car. The police are called upon to seek out Mr. X, but the evidence may be slightly uncertain. Having the practical problem of trying to identify the person referred to by the witnesses, the police will sometimes place themselves in a position from which they can observe suspects to see whether they are undertaking actions that tend to confirm the charge that other persons have made against them.
  It was naive of the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed to suggest that the right approach of the police in such a case was boldly to step forward and show their uniform. The police are there precisely to discover whether an allegation made by a damaged or affronted person is correctly made against a specific person. They must act on suspicion and must be guided by the pattern of conduct that a person is pursuing. A man or woman of whom another person has said that he or she has been guilty of an attack or other offence may be seen by police on a Tube with his or her hand going into other people's pockets, or be seen trying a series of car doors on a dark night, or engaged in other activities where "sus" has been used. In such circumstances the police will feel the more certain that witnesses' allegations on previous matters are true and can be taken to the point of arrest and of taking the man or woman concerned before a court. Therefore, whilst I believe that "sus" should go, I also believe that it has been made to seem a much bigger monster than it ever was.
  I completely understand the view of many of those in the immigrant communities, and the feelings of many young people, but on the evidence—whether it be numbers or cases—it is wholly wrong to suggest that "sus" has been a monstrous imposition, by the Metropolitan Police in particular, on racial minorities or young people. I very much welcome the fact that the Select Committee, representing all parties in the House, and my right hon. Friend in his speech today, totally rejected any suggestion that the Metropolitan Police had used "sus" in a racially discriminatory way. It is equally true that "sus" has been used on occasion to prevent crimes which would have severely damaged many ordinary citizens.
  I judge the Bill very simply by the criterion of whether it fills the gap that will open up through the expungement of "sus". I believe that on the whole it does, but I have a number of questions that I hope my hon. and learned Friend will be able to deal with.
  First, despite the intervention of the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham), it is the fact that several years ago the Metropolitan Police,

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  following the case of Haughton v. Smith, sent out a force order, which, as with all force orders in the Metropolitan Police, has been pretty scrupulously observed. It said that charges should not be brought if they were based on an impossible offence. A summary of Haughton v. Smith was made available. Since that time, I think it is a fact—I do not know whether it is desirable or, in every sense, a commendable fact—that in many areas of the Metropolitan Police, on the basis of Haughton v. Smith, charges of attempted theft have not been brought. Instead, in practice, rightly or wrongly, the Metropolitan Police have tended to rely on "sus". It is open to the House to criticise the Metropolitan Police on that ground. I might criticise it myself. That, however, explains more than any thing else the difference between the practice of the Metropolitan Police in using "sus" and the practice of many other metropolitan area forces in not applying "sus".
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The Metropolitan Police did not put that forward as an explanation of the discrepancy. If it was true, one would have expected to see an increase in the incidence of "sus" arrests in every division of the Metropolitan Police. In fact, one of the major factors affecting the minds of the committee was that the incidence differed largely and indiscriminately between one Metropolitan division and another. It had no relation to any observable fact such as the incidence of street crime.
  Mr. Griffiths: I understand what the hon. Gentleman says. I reassert that Haughton v. Smith led to a great unwillingness on the part of the Metropolitan Police to pursue cases that could be regarded as impossible crimes. Can the Minister say whether that force order is still in being and whether he has had the opportunity to discuss with the Metropolian Police the impact of Haughton v. Smith on its practice?
  Clauses 1 and 2 must be taken together in the creation of this new offence. I shall not follow my right hon. Friend down the complicated labyrinths of the sexual attempts. That might be difficult. In the case, however, of the handbags, the shopping bags and pockets with nothing in them, I believe the the new charge of attempt will be satisfactory in every respect.
  I should like to ask whether the Minister can bend his mind to another possibility. One of the impossible offences that continues to be committed is that where a replica firearm is produced and pointed at someone. The menace takes place, but it turns out that the firearm is a fake. All over the country, fake firearms are purchased. They are technically toys. I believe that it is an impossible offence, under firearms legislation, if the device is a toy. None the less, it would seem that the use of these replica guns is a serious matter. It should be dealt with.
  The Home Secretary is aware that we have had some discussion on the matter. The Bill may not be an appropriate vehicle for dealing with it. My right hon. Friend has been good enough to say that he will look to see whether the matter can be dealt with in other ways. I have the opportunity now to ask my hon. and learned Friend whether, in his reply, he will say one word about the whole matter of an impossible offence where replica firearms are concerned.
  I turn to clause 9. I listened carefully to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. I see his point.
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  This is a matter that may require some attention in Committee. I am attracted, at least at first sight, to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) that clause 9 would perhaps be better if it included the need for there to be intent to commit an arrestable offence. At first blush, I am attracted by that idea. I would need to take further advice before arriving at any conclusions on behalf of the police service.
  The notion of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook is conceivably right. A person could be trying the door of a Cadillac or a Rolls-Royce belonging to a Member of this House out of curiosity and admiration. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does not believe that any rational police officer would bring forward a charge on that sort of evidence. He would be bound to know in advance—if he did not, he would very soon learn—that no court of law in this country would, for one moment, convict in that case. We are talking as if, once a charge is brought, it is invariably found to be proved. It is not.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: It is in 97 per cent. of cases.
  Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman says 97 per cent. I am not talking about that. I am saying that, in the case of "sus" the police, in addition to understanding the need to retain a measure of public confidence will rarely bring charges before a magistrate's court if they know perfectly well that they will be laughed out of court. A practical problem is involved. The number of auto-crimes is large. Happily, over the past year, it has gone down a little. It has nevertheless become a major problem. It is not merely a question of the theft of a vehicle. It is the opening of the vehicle—not everyone, unfortunately, locks the car door—and the stealing of the radio, the stealing, increasingly, of the tape recorder, the opening of the back door and the stealing of the spare wheel, the tyre or the tools, or, often, simply the opening of the back window and the taking of the coat, the shopping bag or some other item left there.
  Auto-crime is a major problem. The police, like the public, are intensely frustrated when there is tangential evidence to suggest that a certain party has been guilty of auto-crime and the police, to use a television phrase, stake themselves out to check whether the person against whom this is alleged could be the criminal in question. They see the pattern of trying doors. It is a useful adjunct to their powers to prevent further crime.
  I believe that clause 9 is essential to the Bill. It may require some amendment. I should like my hon. and learned Friend, in his reply, to deal with the possibility of extending clause 9 to include intent to commit an arrestable offence.
  5.38 pm
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Like everyone else in the debate, I intend to concentrate on part II of the Bill. I hope that when the Bill goes into Committee serious attention will be given to clause 1, which is drafted in the manner recommended by the Law Commission. I took part in the seminar of the Law Commission on this subject at All Souls. I know the tortured and tortuous examination that was carried out on the business of distinguishing between a preparatory act and an attempted crime. At the moment, the test known to English law is that there should be a proximate act, the effect of which is to say to the jury

  49
  "What would have happened next if the police had not intervened?" There is, however, a real problem that arises and increases as one moves back from that test.
  I find it difficult to accept the notion that one has committed an offence if one has done something that is no more than a merely preparatory act. The first adjective qualifies the second. To have a merely preparatory act suggests that one can commit an offence if one has simply committed a preparatory act. There has always been a distinction in English law between a preparatory act and a proximate act, for the simple reason that it is so difficult to evaluate what the intention is merely from a preparatory act.
  If I am going to murder my wife by buying rat poison and then administering it in something that she drinks, do I commit a preparatory act when I buy the rat poison, or is it a preparatory act that constitutes an attempt? If it is merely a preparatory act, does it become more than that if I take it home? Is it more than that if I have it available when I make my wife's tea? Does it become more than that up to the point where I put it in her tea? Does it become that when I take it upstairs to my wife who is in bed, in readiness to give it to her? At what stage have I committed the attempted offence of murder? That sort of speculation can be used in all sorts of offence, and enormous difficulty will be created for juries.
  In its report the Law Commission goes through the problems of alternative definitions and indicates that in other jurisdictions they have led to considerable difficulties. However, it plumps in one sentence in one paragraph for the test that is included in clause 1(1). It does not define why that is an easier test to apply for juries than any of the others that it has discounted. We shall have to have a serious discussion in Committee about what that means and how difficult it will be to apply.
  I do not necessarily accept that part I is entirely devoid of controversy, but I accept what the Home Secretary said about getting rid of Haughton v Smith. I think that the House of Lords made a wrong decision, and I am glad that we are abandoning it. I agree with the Government that to have gone as far as the Law Commission did in abandoning it and saying that an offence can be committed if someone intends to commit it—that which was not an offence in English law—would have been absurd. I accept that which is done in clause 1(3). Therefore, on the whole I support part I.
  I approve of clause 8, being one of those who was part of the unanimous view of the Sub-Comittee—only one person voted against it in the whole committee—that proposed the complete abolition of "sus". Therefore, I am glad to see clause 8, but I am sorry to see clause 9.
  The argument for getting rid of "sus" is so strong that I am sorry that it has not persuaded the hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve). If he had read the report in detail he would have seen that a great deal of his anxiety is removed when the evidence is considered soberly. The remarks that he made are the sort that have been used to justify the retention of "sus", despite the criticism of many over the years. That criticism has been made by others apart from black people, and before black people came to live in Britain. For many years before black people came to live in this country there was criticism of "sus" by lawyers and judges.
  The report quotes the remarks of the Lord Chief Justice in the middle 1930s about the effect of "sus". It has been a matter of concern for lawyers and civil libertarians for
  50
  a long time. The main reason for that concern is set out in paragraph 22, which has been quoted with approval by many hon. Members today. Mr right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) saw in it some moral content. I am glad to know that, as I drafted the paragraph. The fundamental difficulty about the "sus" offence is that it transgresses the prime vile of English law that a person cannot be convicted merely because he has formed a criminal intention. It is necessary to do something other than that.
  The main justification for that principle is that it would lean against forming a criminal intention and subsequently removing the criminal intention by going back on it. If a person knew that when he formed a criminal intention he had committed an offence and could be convicted of it, he would be less disposed to abandon the intention and not to commit the offence. It is a sound principle, and one which I set out in paragraph 22. I recognise that the hon. and learned Member for Solihull, in disapproving of me, may not be persuaded by that argument. I ask him to read paragraph 3·27 of the Law Commission's report on attempt, which says exactly the same thing, namely, that it is wrong in principle that merely the intention to commit an offence should be a punishable offence. For that reason I and, I thought, the rest of the Sub-Committee were against putting any thing in its place.
  Whatever is put in its place to fill the alleged gap is bound to have the difficulties that we have encountered with "sus". Anything that we put in its place is something less than an attempt. The Government's attempt to fill the gap by clause 9 is lamentable. The hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) said, perfectly correctly, that clause 9 contains a totally unsatisfactory definition of an offence because a person does not have to have the intention to commit any sort of criminal offence, let alone an arrestable offence. At the very least it would be necessary to qualify it to that extent to fulfil the Home Secretary's aims. Even if it is qualified to that extent, it still remains true that a person will be convicted of forming a criminal intention and not of carrying out an overt criminal act.
  Mr. Douglas Hogg: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that he is being less than fair to clause 9? When he criticised the old "sus" law, one of his major criticisms was the absence of actus reus. As he well knows, clause 9 does have actus reus, namely, interference. That surely goes a long way to meet the criticism of the "sus" law.
  Mr. Lyon: Those who tried to defend section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 before the Sub-Committee constantly said that before a person could be convicted under that section there would have to be two proven incidents that indicated the existence of the intention. Clause 9 merely says that there has to be an overt act that proves an intention. However, that is not an overt criminal act. It is an overt act intended to indicate that intention, and that overt act is as capable of an equivocal explanation as was the "sus" law.
  If I go to the Cadillac that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook spoke about and take hold of the door handle and try it in order to open it, why am I doing that? Am I doing is because I want to get in to drive it away, because I want to get inside to steal something from the car, or because I so admire the car that I should like to have a look at the speedometer to see whether it is the type of car that I want to register in my book of records?

  51
  There are many innocent reasons why someone might want to touch a car. I should not be persuaded, because I have been against the proposition from the beginning. Even if I were persuaded as far as the Home Secretary is that touching car door handles is something so intrinsically regrettable that we should create a criminal offence for it, I still could not go as far as clause 9.
  I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has read the clause. It goes far beyond what he said he wanted to do in his speech of June 1980. It goes far beyond what he has referred to today. It says, in effect, that anyone who interferes with a motor vehicle in any way will be committing an offence. That includes, for example, touching the side of the car or the aerial. It seems that that will be enough if it constitutes an intention that the magistrates accept as one of gaining entry.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: What about subsection (2)?
  Mr. Lyon: That takes the matter no further. It merely means that one has to have a bona fide belief that the owner will not object. All sorts of things that one might wish to do could be objectionable to some owners but not to others. Some owners might object to someone entering the car for any reason. Others might be perfectly willing to allow someone to enter. It would be difficult for the courts to sort that out.
  Clause 9 is redolent of the sorts of difficulties and objections that brought "sus" into disrepute. If it becomes law it will be used by the police in the same way as the "sus" law, and it will have the same effects. I say to the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), that the sorts of "sus" offences that hit blacks were the handbag and loitering offences, while the sort of offence that hit young whites was the motor car offence. I suspect that there will be an outcry from young whites, rather than from young blacks, about this proposal. It will be as disreputable an offence as the "sus" offence ever was.
  5.51 pm
  Mr. Warren Hawksley: I shall try to be brief and not detain the House for long. As a member of the police authority I have a special interest in the matter. We should give as much support as we can to the police in Britain to enforce our laws. We should not in any way weaken their position. It has been said that on occasions in Northern Ireland our soldiers have had to fight their battles almost with their hands tied behind their backs. There is a danger that we are trying to do the same to the police. It is important that we do everything that we can to give them the powers to do the job that we expect of them. Let us not forget that the police have a job not only to detect crime but to prevent it. It is important to remember that when considering section 4 of the 1824 Act. In the past that section has been used to prevent crime. It is an important part of police work, and we should give serious consideration to it.
  I am concerned aboout the ablition of the "sus" laws because of the pressures exerted on them. Many hon. Members have referred to the fear about community relations. The immigrant community exerted pressure and said that it was hard done by by that piece of legislation. I am worried that when that legislation is written out of the statute book pressure will be exerted over a wider area; for example, the laws on drugs and on unlicensed drinking.
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  In both cases I hope that we shall receive an assurance that we shall not give in to pressures such as those exerted on the "sus" legislation.
  Although I have grave reservations about the decision to abolish the "sus" laws, I support the Bill. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary promised, it gives the safeguards that are necessary to replace that law. The alternatives, especially those in clause 9, go a long way towards helping the police in relation to vehicles. However, I wish to consider another aspect. Although we may be covered for vehicles, I question whether we are completely closing the gaps that will be left by the abolition of "sus". I cite as an example the youngster waiting in a bus queue and looking at handbags. He does not get on the No. 7 bus when it arrives but disappears into a shop doorway. He reappears when the next bus queue forms. Is he covered sufficiently under the proposed legislation? I have serious doubts about that.
  The Home Secretary referred to the warning that would be given simply by the sight of a policeman. The Liberal spokesman, the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said that if policemen were more numerous on the ground that would be a deterrent, but I doubt that. I fear that there will be many more complaints of harassment. There will be complaints that the police are not being fair because they are harassing a youngster who is receiving warnings. The number of complaints to the Complaints Board will rise steeply in areas where the "sus" laws were previously used.
  I am no lawyer, but as a lay Member I have reservations about the wording of certain clauses. Clause I contains the phrase:
  "which goes so far towards the commission of that offence as to be more than a merely preparatory act".
  I question whether we are not walking into what might be a lawyer's paradise. I hope that before the Bill becomes law we shall achieve a lawyer-proof definition of the word "attempt". I hope, too, that a better attempt will be made to deal with that aspect. The last thing that we want to do is to give the lawyers a heyday as a result of the Bill.
  My final point concerns an omission from the Bill. The second report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs suggested that the police should use the powers of stop and search, and various hon. Members have raised that point today. Those powers generally come under the Metropolitan Police Acts. Authorities outside the metropolitan area are concerned that they do not have enough powers. A recent Royal Commission reported on criminal procedure and recommended that the police should be given powers to stop and search in the street. I hope that when my hon. and learned Friend replies to the debate he will give us some hope that in Committee we shall find an acceptable clause that will put into effect the suggestion of the Royal Commission. That would go a long way towards reassuring those who are fearful that by abolishing "sus" we are weakening the powers and the authority of the police.
  The balance between those who break the laws and those who keep them is so fine that anything that we do to weaken that balance might be dangerous. I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will give an assurance that consideration will be given to including safeguards beyond those in clause 9, which deals only with vehicles.
  5.57 pm
  Mr. A. W. Stallard: In common with the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Hawksley), I am not a lawyer. I shall confine my remarks to a narrow point so that as many hon. Members as possible may speak in the debate. I agree with most of what has been said by Labour Members, especially the remarks by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown), who pin-pointed some especially serious London problems in relation to the Bill. I hope that they will be dealt with more fully in Committee.
  If it is necessary or possible, I wish to correct an impression that is abroad outside the House and which has been repeated by almost every speaker this evening, namely, that section 4 of the 1824 Act has been repealed. If I understand the Bill correctly, only a small part of it has been repealed. Had it been repealed in full, I might be making a different sort of speech.
  I wish to make a brief and urgent plea to the Home Secretary, mainly in my capacity as chairman of CHAR—the Campaign for the Homeless and the Rootless Group—which is a national campaign for single, homeless people. My colleagues on that committee, from all parts of the House, with whom I have been able to discuss the matter welcome the proposal to repeal that part of section 4 which deals with the notorious "sus" offence. However, we are gravely disappointed that the Home Secretary has failed to seize this opportunity to remove from the statute book some other unacceptable offences under section 4. Had that section been repealed, those offences would have been abolished. The section is best known because it contains the "sus" offence, which the Select Committee on Home Affairs unanimously requested should be repealed—and which of course party lines demanded should be repeale—but which also includes other offences.
  It will still be a criminal offence to beg. That carries a maximum fine of £20 or one month's imprisonment for the first offence and a maximum sentence of one year for subsequent offences. It is wrong to argue that that part of the Act is being repealed.
  It will still he a criminal offence for homeless people to sleep rough. That involves a maximum sentence of £100 or three months' imprisonment for the first offence and up to one year's imprisonment for subsequent offences. I do not wish to quote too many statistics. That has been avoided in this short debate. However, in 1979 167 persons were prosecuted for sleeping rough. Forty-four were given immediate prison sentences. In the same year 965 persons were prosecuted for begging, 15 were sent at once to prison and 224 were eventually sent to prison for sleeping rough and begging because they could not pay their fines. It is wrong, therefore, to say that the entire section has been repealed.
  Ever since our all-party group, CHAR, was set up in 1973 it has urged successive Home Secretaries to repeal these archaic and punitive laws, especially that which relates to sleeping rough. A number of hon. Members in the Chamber are founder members of that group. We have argued, when discussing overcrowding in prisons and so on, how the situation could be eased by the repeal of such archaic laws.
  On 16 December last year I wrote to the Home Secretary on behalf of the group and asked him to use this Bill to introduced these repeals. On 6 January he wrote to
  54
  me saying that he could not. My plea is that the Home Secretary should reconsider that decision and introduce the necessary amendment in Committee. I am sure that the Committee, the House and most interested people outside would support him. In his letter to me the Home Secretary said that such a change would be controversial. It is even more controversial, indeed it is a disgrace, that a civilised society should still send men and women to prison for the so-called crime of having no home or being unable to keep a home together.
  Many examples have been brought to the group's attention. One was reported in the Cambridge Evening News. A 31-year-old woman was sent to prison for three months for sleeping under the canopy of a local police station. The magistrates said that they sent her to prison reluctantly because nowhere else could be found for her. The woman went to gaol. She had a long history of psychiatric care and was homeless. She should have been dealt with, not by the courts but by the local housing department under the Housing (Homeless Persons) Act 1977. That is the compassionate and caring way to deal with people who sleep rough. We should not pointlessly push them through the courts and prisons at no help to them and at great cost to the criminal justice system.
  That is one of the many examples of the injustices caused by that part of the legislation that remains. It is a serious omission from the Bill. I urge the Home Secretary to think again in the few weeks available before the Committee stage. I urge him to introduce an amendment to the Vagrancy Act 1824 to include those matters to which I have referred.
  6.3 pm
  Mr. Douglas Hogg: I hope that the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. Stallard) will forgive me if I do not comment on his interesting speech, because I wish to concentrate on that part of the Bill that repeals a part of section 4 or the Vagrancy Act.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the measures in the Bill. Like others who have participated in court appearances where vagrancy offences have been tried, I have always been uneasy about the operation of that statute. If I had to pinpoint the central cause of my anxiety, I would say that when one considers a section 4 offence too much depends on the evidence of one police officer, in particular, exactly what he saw, and, frequently, what the defendant said to him. I have no doubt that injustices have been done by the courts in that context. There is a widespread belief that such injustices have been done by the courts. Therefore, I welcome the repeal of that provision.
  I was troubled by whether there was a need to introduce clause 9. It is a nice judgment. On balance, I believe that the Home Secretary is right to introduce a clause designed to meet such a situation, but I am anxious about the exact formulation of the clause.
  I do not agree with the criticisms made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). His criticisms were twofold. First, he said that too little attention was paid to prohibited acts and, secondly, that too much attention was paid to prohibited intentions. In summary, that was his criticism. I agree with the response to him by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve), that the courts are always seized of the need to determine criminal intention. In almost all

  55
  offences that is an essential element that has to be proved. This in no way departs from the standard tradition and practice of our common and statutory law.
  I wish to put to the House a more important criticism of clause 9. If one looks carefully at the clause, one sees that, although it contains the prohibited intention, it carries the prohibited intention further than did the Vagrancy Act itself—the prohibited intention in gaining entry to a motor vehicle, for example, or discovering whether it is possible to gain such entry. I can imagine occasions when someone will wish to gain entry to a car for non-criminal purposes. I ventured to cite two examples in an intervention.
  The hon. Member for St. Pancras, North will know of occasions when people want to sleep in a car because they have nowhere else to sleep. That should not be a criminal act. Another example is when there is a restricted parking space. A person who wishes to park his car may wish to move another parked car to create a larger parking space for himself. That should not be a criminal act.
  I cannot see into my right hon. Friend's mind, but I fancy that he will say that he has provided a defence under clause 9(2). However, I do not believe that the defence goes wide enough. One has to contemplate whether the defence applies to the situation before the courts.
  I believe that we can get round the problem by saying that the prohibited intention should be an intention to commit an arrestable offence. That is precisely the same intention as was prohibited by the Vagrancy Act. I do not believe that the criticism of the Vagrancy Act centred on the definition—if I might use the lawyers' phrase—of mens rea, or the prohibited intention. The criticism of the Vagrancy Act was based on the absence in that statute of the actus reus and, more particularly, of the difficulty in proving the commission of the offence.
  So far as the prohibited intention is concerned, namely, the mens rea, I should like to build on the contents of the Vagrancy Act and argue that the act should not be a criminal offence unless it is done with the intention of committing an arrestable offence. I hope that that brief point will receive favourable consideration by the Government Front Bench.
  6.9 pm
  Mr. Edward Lyons: I welcome the provision in the Bill which says that an attempt to commit the impossible in certain circumstances can be a criminal offence.
  I take an obvious example. Let us suppose that a group of terrorists sought to kill someone but that another group of terrorists had already achieved the killing an hour before. If the second group of terrorists shot at a dummy in a window in the belief that it was their intended victim, there is no reason why that second group of terrorists should not be charged with attempted murder. Therefore, although it may seem odd on the face of it, the proposed correction to the existing law is a correction that is worth making.
  Most of the discussion has centred upon part II of the Bill. The reason why the "sus" law is called the "sus" law is that it is unique in resting upon suspicion rather than upon anything else. It is out of context with the rest of English law, for, if a policeman sees two suspicious acts, he can proceed to lay a charge of loitering. Suspicion in other circumstances is not enough. It is not enough, in
  56
  other circumstances, simply to have two suspicious acts establishing intent when there are no other overt acts of attempt. Accordingly, the "sus" law is a bad law and should go.
  The "sus" law was conveniently used for several reasons. The first was that trial was only in the magistrates' court, so that the harassed policeman did not have to attend a longer trial in the higher court and be cross-examined by counsel. It is also the fact that a higher rate of convictions is obtained in the magistrates' courts than in the Crown court. In certain parts of the country, therefore, the pattern grew up of charging "sus", while in other parts of the country, such as West Yorkshire, the offence of "sus" was seldom charged. In a year in West Yorkshire there are about 80 charges of "sus", but in London in a year there are well over 2,000 such charges. In some parts of the country the "sus" charge is virtually unknown.
  Another problem with "sus" relates to motor car offences. In the old days, the problem about charging attempt in relation to taking a motor car without the owner's consent, or stealing the car or its contents, was that when someone was arrested for having been seen to have been operating on the handle of a motor car, if he were charged with attempting to steal the car, the jury might take the view that he was going for the contents, whereas, if he were charged with stealing the contents, the jury might take the view that he was intending to take the vehicle. As a result, it became a common practice to charge the "sus" offence, because it got round the difficulty of charging attempt in circumstances in which one could not prove which of the two offences the person concerned had been seeking to commit. It was, not that there was no evidence of attempt, but that one did not know which offence was to be attempted. Therefore "sus" was used. One can, therefore, see the temptation to put into the Bill a clause which gets round the difficulty concerning attempt. The difficulty, as I have indicated, was in deciding whether the car was to be taken away or whether the contents of it were to be stolen.
  Clause 9 goes far beyond that. It would have more respectability if it dealt with the alternatives to which I have referred—taking something from the interior of the car or taking the car. Suppose that a man, in wanting to move his car, found that another car was, in his view, in the way. He might be tempted to move the other car a yard or two in such circumstances. Alternatively, he might want to park his car in a gap which could be made sufficiently wide if he were to move the other fellow's car a yard or two down the road. To do that is to take something of a liberty but, none the less, it should not be a criminal offence. Certainly it was not contemplated under the original law of attempt, because there is in Britain no offence relating to moving a car a yard down the road in order to create extra space.
  In my view, therefore, there is here an enlargement of the criminal law which does not even relate to dishonesty, because clause 9 has nothing in common with an offence of dishonesty. There can be dishonesty contemplated, but it need not be contemplated. It is clear from the last part of subsection (1) that it is sufficient to be interfering with a vehicle. The word "interfering" is not defined. The words in the subsection are
  "discovering whether it is possible to gain such entry or access."
  If my car breaks down, on seeing a car nearby I may wonder whether I can get a torch out of that car—so that

  57
  I can see what I am doing when I try to repair my car—or I may wonder whether I can borrow a jack from that car. A magistrate—because there seems to be no entitlement to go to a jury in such cases—would need to say "You interfered with that vehicle in order to gain entry to it to borrow a jack" and that would be sufficient for me to be found guilty. Surely it is not the intention of the Home Secretary that people should be placed in jeopardy for that sort of reason.
  I know that clause 9(2) is a saving subsection, in that if a person has a belief that he has lawful authority to do what he is doing—or that he would have the owner's consent—that prevents the matter from becoming an offence. But there are circumstances which would not be covered by either of the two matters mentioned in subsection (2).
  Why cannot clause 9 expressly indicate a dishonest intention? It is left to inference. As it stands, the clause is highly unsatisfactory and will have to be looked at again. None the less, the abolition of the "sus" offence in general is welcome.
  It has been said today—as it always is—that somehow "sus" has been used in order to prevent crimes of violence. That is nonsense. There is no evidence that "sus" has been used to stop people who were about to commit crimes of violence. It has been used almost exclusively in order to prevent the theft of property. That is why the examples that are always given are in relation to cars and in relation to pickpocketing. It is not generally used in order to prevent old ladies from being mugged. It is not used in relation to violence; it is not seen to be used in relaton to violence. Those who seek to use that argument are doing a disservice to the case for the abolition of "sus".
  I congratulate the Home Secretary on going as far as he has done, but I hope that he will go a little further in relation to clause 9.
  6.18 pm
  Mr. George Cunningham: Although the new Minister of State, Home Office comes not at all fresh to this subject matter—far less fresh than I do—he comes fresh to this team, and therefore I should like to take the opportunity to welcome him, as my opposite number, to his new position and hope that we shall have productive dealings.
  The Bill before us, as has been said, is divided into two parts, and, like others, I want to concentrate on the second part, despite the fact that the first part, codifying the law of attempt, is extremely important in its own right. But the two parts are not separate, and the principles which the Law Commission set out in its report—the Law Commission is to be congratulated on making the task of the House much easier, in the light of that report—are principles that ought to be firmly borne in mind when we come to consider clause 9.
  The House ought to appreciate—I am sure that people do—that while the first part of the Bill comes to us with the imprimatur of the Law Commission, subject to a few amendments, clause 9 most certainly does not. Clause 9 comes to us with the imprimatur of the Home Office, which, with great respect to Ministers, is a much less respectable one in the eyes of many of us, and one that we would less automatically follow than we would the advice, perhaps, of the Law Commission, at least on this subject.
  The changes that the Home Office is recommending us to make in the draft of part I in the report of the Law
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  Commission will no doubt be gone into carefully in Committee, which will be all the more thorough for being under the new and experimental Special Standing Committee procedure. All that I should like to say at this stage is that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said, we agree that the departure from the Law Commission's proposal with regard to impossibility is to be commended. The addition of recklessness in motive in clause 2(3) will have to be looked at extremely carefully in Committee.
  The other changes are of language and no doubt are to be attributed to the feeling on the part of every parliamentary draftsman that he knows better how to draft Acts of Parliament than do hon. Members who interpret them. Whether that is so is extremely questionable.
  There have been references to the various fascinating examples of impossibility. It might be thought, or hoped, that the discussion of English law should lose the interest of considering such questions as whether it should be an offence to go up to a victim who one thinks is sleeping and stab him in the back, when in fact he died five minutes before of a heart attack, or whether it should be an offence to do all that is necessary to commit an illegal abortion, only to discover afterwards that the woman was not pregnant.
  I should miss, and everyone would, the fascination of discussing those issues. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook suggested, the words
  "even though facts exist which render the commission of that offence impossible"
  leave great scope for the re-emergence of those old issues that have given so much pleasure to so many people in the past. I think that we shall see as much of them in the future as we did in the past.
  I turn now to the second part of the report. I shall not dwell long on the virtues of repealing parts of section 4 of the 1824 Act. We had a full debate on that last June. No tears should be shed over the loss of those provisions. If there is any lesson to be hammered home now, it is that Parliament should be extremely careful about putting woolly language like that in the 1824 provision on the statute book. When Parliament finds that it is on the statute book, it should not be so conservative in deciding that because it is there, it ought to stay there. If we take that approach, the statute book will continue to be cluttered up with things that should not be there, which are offensive to the proper principles of English law, and which were just as offensive to those principles when they were put on the statute book in 1824 as they are today.
  One has to be extremely careful in considering clause 9. It creates a new offence. The first question that we have to ask is the one posed by the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), namely whether there is any need to put anything in the place of "sus". Eminent judicial authorities were quoted in the debate last June as being in favour of the view that there is no need to put anything in the place of "sus". It was the view of the Select Committee that there was no need to put anything in the place of "sus". It is the view of many people that we should use the general law of attempt and that that should be sufficient.
  When the Home Secretary introduced the debate, I thought that some of the words that he used were significant. He talked of "gaps left by repeal". He talked of "actions sufficiently close to the full offence", and of

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  "closing particular loopholes in the law which would otherwise result". He meant that which would otherwise result from the repeal of "sus".
  The right hon. Gentleman's remarks during the debate last June were of the same nature, and the remarks made by the then Minister of State, Home Office were similar. The Minister of State said:
  "there is some ground which 'sus' covers which ought to be covered by the criminal law in a form which is more modern and does not have the objectionable features that the present 'sus' law has."—[Official Report, 5 June 1980; Vol. 985, c. 1815.]
  I draw the conclusion from that quotation that it was the view of Ministers—I think that it still is the view of the Home Secretary, despite the drafting of the Bill—that if something is needed in place of "sus", it is something that covers behaviour that was previously covered by "sus". I suspect that the Home Secretary still thinks that what he is doing in clause 9 is to cover some, but not all, of the behaviour previously criminal under "sus". I hope that in the next few minutes I can persuade him, as others have sought to do, that he is not doing that.
  The right hon. Gentleman is doing something additional to what he contemplated last June, what he contemplated in his speech today, and what I think he is still contemplating. In rough terms—I should prefer not to use these words—we are preserving a sort of "sus" in relation to vehicles, and we are making it worse. As I have said, it is important that we should consider clause 9 against the background of the principles on preparatory actions leading up to an offence. I say "preparatory actions" rather than "attempt" in order to deal with those actions that are thought to be preparatory to an offence, but which are too distant from the offence to be called an attempt.
  There are many references to this matter in the Law Commission's report. I pick only one from paragraph 2.23:
  "For reasons we have given above, we have as a matter of policy decided against the possibility of penalising criminal intent accompanied by merely preparatory acts"
  The whole report is littered with references of that nature. It insists time and time again that actions that should be criminal at least under the general law of attempt are actions that go close to the completed offence.
  I accept right away that, at the same time as saying that, the Law Commission acknowledges and commends the use of specific offences for certain preparatory actions, where that is thought to be in the public interest. An example is going equipped to steal, which is a preparatory offence, one could say, but is a specific offence and does not have to be dealt with under the general law of attempt. Other examples are carrying a firearm, or doing certain things in relation to the forgery legislation.
  The Law Commission implies—and we ought to be sure from our knowledge—that where it is proposed that preparatory behaviour should constitute a specific offence on its own, as is proposed in clause 9, we should be extremely reluctant to do it in the first place. The burden of proof lies with Ministers who propose it—otherwise we should rely on the general law of attempt. So it is on that doubting, suspicious and reluctant basis that we ought to approach clause 9.
  Clause 9 provides that if one does certain preparatory things with a view to gaining entry to a vehicle, gaining access to a vehicle or discovering whether one can gain
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  entry or access to a vehicle one has committed a criminal offence. That was not an offence under "sus". I hope that the Home Secretary realises that. Under "sus", bad as it was, one had to have an intention not only to commit an offence, but to commit an arrestable, that is, a relatively serious, offence. And the intent is not just to gain entry or access, but to discover whether entry or access can be gained.
  I find it incredible that the Home Secretary should be proposing that the burden with regard to intent should be weakened in this provision as compared with "sus". The effect of it is that certain behaviour, which at the moment is not criminal even under "sus", will be criminal if the Home Office gets its way and puts this provision on to the statute book.—[Interruption.] If the Home Secretary is asking the Minister of State whether that is right, the answer is "Yes".
  May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that conspiracy, which was re-formed a little while ago, now applies only to conspiracy to do a criminal offence? I am sure that the Law Commission, had it had an opportunity to consider clause 9 as it stands, would have come to the conclusion that it is contrary to the principles that should govern the passing of legislation. Because of the way in which we shall have a Standing Committee on the Bill, I hope that we shall have an opportunity of discovering an answer to that, and not have to speculate on what the Law Commission would have said had it known in advance.
  There is also something of a conflict of principles, surely, between clause 9 as it stands and clause 1(3), which has the effect of saying that a person cannot be guilty of attempting to commit an offence if no offence would have been committed had he completed the actions. All right, that is dealing with the law of attempt, whereas clause 9 is making a specific offence. But there is something curious in saying that one cannot be guilty of an attempt to commit an offence if what one is trying to do is not an offence, and, under the later provisions of the Bill, saying that one can be guilty of an offence for interfering with a car when, had one done all that one intended to do, it would not have been an offence. There is an unacceptable oddity there.
  There is another respect in which the clause is making criminal behaviour that is not criminal at the moment, even under "sus." With all its faults, "sus" requires that two overt acts should be committed, one to become a suspicious person and the other to trigger off the next stage of the process. Clause 9 does not require two actions. Only one would be sufficient so long as the court held that that action was interfering with a car and was sufficient to show the intent set down there.
  The Home Office seems to have changed its mind. The Home Office working party of 1974—not one of the most progressive bodies in the world on this subject—at page 62, paragraph 203, when recommending that "sus" should be replaced by something, said:
  "The offence should in our view be limited to the case of a person whose antecedent conduct in a public place reveals his intent to commit an arrestable offence. 'Antecedent conduct' should, as under existing law, include at least one suspicious act before and distinct from the act which caused him to be charged with the offence."
  To put it crudely, that working party was made up of Home Office officials and police, and it took a certain view of the whole subject matter as a result. But even it did not suggest that we should get away from intent to do a non-crime and from two specific actions.

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  There is then the question of what interpretation will be put upon the word "interference". First, why have Ministers introduced the word "interference"? If there is already on the statute book a word that is used in this context and another word is used, the courts are bound to presume that something different is meant. There is a word already on the statute book. It is in section 29 of the Road Traffic Act 1972, and the word is "tampering". Since Ministers are proposing that we should not use "tampering", the courts will presumably hold that "interference" means something different from "tampering", although I should have thought they were very similar.
  Why did Ministers use a different word? Would it be necessary to touch the vehicle in order to interfere with it? Would trying one door handle constitute interfering with a motor vehicle? Would standing outside and not touching the vehicle but having a stick with a piece of string on it in one's hand with a view to holding it inside the vehicle and undoing the handle constitute interference?
  In this case the actus is too vague, and we shall not know what it means until five or 10 years of court cases have clarified the matter for us. That is what we are trying to get away from. Add to the vagueness about the actus reus the vagueness about the low level of the burden of proof with regard to intent, and we have a recipe for all the complaints about this offence in its limited sphere of action that applied to "sus" in its wider sphere of action.
  I hope that when the Minister of State replies to the debate he will confirm as a matter of fact that it is true that certain behaviour that is not at the moment criminal under "sus" will become criminal under this provision. He has already nodded his head. I still find it incredible that when we have gone through the whole argument about whether it is necessary to replace "sus" with anything, Ministers should come to us with a recommendation that we should intensify criminality of behaviour, although on a much narrower front.
  My personal view is that there is no need for clause 9. If, however, we are to put on to the statute book something of this nature, it needs to be changed, as the hon. Member for Grantham said, in order to make the intent at least an intent to commit an offence, preferably an intent to commit an arrestable offence.
  There is another way of dealing with it, for which there is a perfect precedent. In past remarks on this subject the former Minister of State and some speakers in the debate today have said that the problem is that one does not know which offence a person is trying to commit if he is trying to get into a car. He might be trying to steal the car, he might be trying to take and drive away the car, he might be trying to steal from the car, or do malicious damage to the car, and so on.
  We have a precedent for making behaviour criminal where we have one of a number of intents in mind. It is in the definition of burglary in the Theft Act, where it is an offence of burglary if a person enters a place as a trespasser with intent to commit any offence mentioned in the Bill. There then follow a number of offences, including stealing. If we wanted to, we could base ourselves upon that precedent and say that it is an offence to do a thing with the intention of stealing a car, taking it away, stealing from it and so on. That would be more specific, the burden would be more proper and the language would be a great deal clearer.
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  The provision as it stands is unsafe. We would continue to rely upon what a policeman said he saw when the actions he saw were susceptible of an innocent interpretation as well as a guilty one. That is exactly the situation from which we are trying to escape. I hope that after rigorous examination of clause 9 in Committee, it will be decided either to excise it from the Bill or to subject it to the qualifications that I and many other hon. Members have raised in this debate.
  6.39 pm
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Patrick Mayhew): A wide area of common ground underlies the debate. There has been wide agreement that the "sus" law should go. Nevertheless, I well understand the reservations expressed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve). In addition, there has been wide agreement that the law of attempt should at least be clarified.
  For a long time there has been great pressure to repeal the law of "sus"; and that pressure has come from a great many quarters. Some people have stressed an objection to "sus" based on one ground and others have stressed objections based on different grounds. While I accept that entirely legitimate objections and reservations have been expressed—notably in our most recent deliberations by the Metropolitan Police—there is a general belief that this offence should go. Indeed that belief has been held for quite a long time.
  Common ground may have been obscured during the debate, but it is a matter for satisfaction, at least for Conservative Members, that the Conservative Party committed itself in its manifesto to the repeal on the law of "sus". I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Members for the welcome and the congratulations that have been expressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on having taken this step.
  It has always been clear that the law of "sus" has close links with the territory covered by the law of criminal attempt. I am glad to endorse warmly the compliments that have been paid to the Law Commission for the very diligent and, as the hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon) said, at times tortured care that it has devoted to its deliberations on how to clarify the law of attempt. Its work has been of the greatest value to us.
  Several hon. Members pointed out that the Bill departs from the Law Commission's recommendation that it should never be a defence to a charge of attempt that the commission of the full offence would have proved impossible for some circumstantial reason. The course that my right hon. Friend has taken in forming the Bill in this way has met, I think, with universal approval from those who have spoken on this subject today.
  It is only courteous to the Law Commission to say a word or two about why we have adopted this course, although it has not featured prominently in today's debate. We have taken a partially different view from that of the Law Commission, but we acknowledge that persuasive arguments can be male on both sides. The broad question is whether impossibility should be a defence to a charge of attempting to commit an offence and, if so, to what extent. We agree that if the impossibility lies only in the fact that inadequate means are used—for example, if too weak a poison is used—that is no defence. Indeed, that was still the law after the case of Haughton v Smith.

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  We also agree that where the impossibility lies in some matter of fact—for example, the pocket did not contain a wallet or the wallet contained nothing of value—it should not serve as a defence. On that point, we are on common ground with the Law commission. We also agree that there should be no guilt where the only culpability lies in the accused trying to do something that he wrongly thinks is unlawful. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State used the illustration of a girl who is older than the man supposes her to be. He supposes her to be under the age of consent and intends to have intercourse with her, but in fact she is 17.
  If the behaviour, when carried through to completion, would still not have amounted in law to an offence due to the existence of some circumstance which the accused was ignorant of it is not right to call that an attempt to commit an offence. It may be thought that such matters should be punishable, but I do not agree. However, if it is thought that that should be punishable, that end should be achieved not by amending the law of criminal attempt, but, as my right hon. Friend suggested, by making it a substantive element of the Offences Against The Person Act, or whatever the relevant statute might be.
  It would be a distortion of the concept of attempt to extend it to cases in which someone not merely tries but succeeds in doing what he had intended to do. The division of opinion lies between those, such as the Law Commission, who take the "subjective" view, who focus on the person's intent and pay less regard to the circumstances that make the commission of the full offence impossible, and those who pay primary regard to the degree of danger to the public that that conduct presents. It is an interesting and highly debatable subject. I am glad that the Government's proposals have met with the approval of the House.
  Whichever course we had chosen to follow in the reformulation of the law of attempt, the necessity for which arose as a result of a decision in the other place in the case of Haughton v Smith, and even if we had followed the Law Commission's recommendation, there would have been a dangerous gap in our defences against dishonesty if we had not legislated specifically for dishonest interference with motor vehicles.
  How is such legislation to be achieved? I accept the point made by several right hon. and hon. Members to the effect that clause 9 makes it an offence—subject to the defence set out in clause 9(2)—to seek to enter a motor car for the purpose of going to sleep. However, if the acceptability of the Government's approach is to be tested, we must ask ourselves whether it has been established that the public need to be protected from street crime connected with parked motor vehicles. No one has seriously contested the fact that a problem exists. Indeed, the Select Committee acknowledged that a considerable volume of dishonest and criminal activity was connected with parked cars.
  That must be the starting point. Therefore, the Government have demonstrated that that first condition for legislation has been established. There is a need to protect the public. One must then ask whether the proposal is something that society can reasonably take to itself by way of protection or whether it is unreasonable, as virtually all hon. Members agree is the case as regards section 4 of the Vagrancy Act. It it is unreasonable, in the sense that it is
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  likely to cause unacceptable criminality, we should not proceed. The Government would not wish to proceed if they felt that that was the case. However, we do not believe that that is so. To use the language of the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham), to say that the Bill will intensify criminal behaviour does not dispose of the issue; it is making something criminal which the Vagrancy Act does not make criminal. That is not the point. I acknowledge that in the instance that I have given the Bill does that. But if it permits dishonest behaviour which is perpetrated to a cerain extent to be more readily stopped, I believe that we are following a legitimate procedure.
  Mr. George Cunningham: If someone goes to a car and the door happens to be open and he goes in and sleeps in it and he does not commit an offence, why should it be an offence if the door happens to be closed to interfere with it for the same purpose?
  Mr. Mayhew: If it be necessary to provide the police with an effective weapon to curb this criminal behaviour, to catch that activity, I believe it to be legitimate. Although it is not an offence now to enter a car to sleep, if the clause becomes law, it will be known that if a person interferes with a car with the intention of gaining entry to it for any purpose, he commits an offence.
  Mr. Douglas Hogg rose—
  Mr. Mayhew: Time is getting on. I wish to deal with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg). It is possible to say that we will limit this to an arrestable offence. We shall consider the point. But if the law were not changed, that would have the effect of enabling trial by jury to be opted for, and that is cumbersome.
  Mr. George Cunningham: Why?
  Mr. Mayhew: Because arrestable offences are nearly always triable by jury. That is an objection, but we shall consider the point.
  The fundamental objection to clause 9 is that it enables someone to arrest a person on the ground that he has a certain intent. That point was made the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) as being a fundamental objection. I believe it to be a misconceived objection. As my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham said, time and again every day the courts are concerned with construing and determining a person's intention from the circumstances of the case.
  For example, the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury mentioned burglary. One type of burglary is defined as entry as a trespasser with intent to commit theft, rape, criminal damage or grievous bodily harm. That is on all fours with somebody attempting to enter a motor car with no ostensible title to do so. That has not caused any difficulty to the courts in determining whether in a burglary case somebody entering as a trespasser had or had not the intent. One looks at the circumstances. Similarly one looks at the circumstances in which somebody is charged with interfering with a motor car. The point is that one looks at the circumstances in every case.
  Mr. Hattersley: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman, to whom I add my welcome, clarify one point? The offence that he is comparing with clause 9 is entering a building for the purpose that he described. I understand that the clause concerns "interfering with" or what the

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  Secretary of State described as "tampering with". There seems to me to be a substantial difference between the two, not least because the hon. and learned Gentleman cunningly—I mean that as a compliment—changed the two verbs between two sentences.
  Mr. Mayhew: There is no problem on this aspect. The point made by the right hon. Gentleman was that one could not safely deduce somebody's intent from his observed actions and that it was wrong that somebody should be allowed in evidence to say "I saw this man doing something and from that I deduced that his intention was X or Y." If that were an objection, it would be an objection to a very large corpus of the criminal law of England and Wales. Burglary, handling stolen goods and uttering forgeries are examples. For example, to utter a forged £1 note is an offence only when the person concerned knows it to be a forgery and intends to defraud. Therefore, we must look carefully at the position.
  I believe that "interfering" as a word will not cause the slightest difficulty to the courts. If somebody holds a stick through the open window of a car, that is plainly interfering. If somebody handles a car door handle, that is interfering. The question is the intent with which it is done. Is it for the purpose of gaining entry? One does not gain entry to a car by touching the aerial. But if a person is fishing around inside, in all probability—the burden of proof will be on the prosecution—he is attempting to gain entry or access to something in the car.
  The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) asked whether it would be an offence if somebody opened a car door to see whether he could identify the owner in order to get him to move his car. I draw attention to clause 9(2), the special defence. We shall consider whether a "without reasonable excuse" defence might be incorporated.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham suggested that the person concerned would not consent if the intention was to identify the driver for the purpose of a prosecution. That is ingenious, like most of my hon. Friend's interventions. But one does not need to open a car door to discover who the driver is. That can be done these days by looking at the number plate.
  I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler), as Chairman of the Home Affairs Sub-Committee, for his welcome to the Bill. I am glad that he, with his experience, regards it as a satisfactory measure. He said that the public would not be at greater risk by reason of the repeal of section 4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824. He also said that he did not accept that the police would be inhibited in dealing with mugging.
  The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown) asked some questions on which I had better write to him because they relate specifically to London. Broadly, clause 1 applies to everywhere in England and Wales. Clause 9, dealing with public places, will apply to council estates where the public generally are admitted, but there are areas of council estates which are private and which by definition are not public places.
  I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) for his compliments both to my right hon. Friend and to me.
  I have already dealt with the question of entering a vehicle to sleep. On the question of an arrestable offence in connection with sleep, I can see the attraction of making it a necessary condition of guilt that there should be an
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  intent to commit an arrestable offence, but, as a matter of practicality, there will be a big temptation on the part of anyone who is caught dishonestly fiddling or interfering with a motor car to say "I was intending only to sleep in the car." That is one of the practical considerations that have to be taken into account.
  I shall write to my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Wheeler) about firearms. He has already had a letter from my right hon. Friend and he knows that to use a firearm, whether a toy or not, for the purpose of demanding with menaces is an offence.
  I should have liked to be able to deal with many of the further questions that have been posed, but time does not permit.
  It is common ground that the public must be protected from motor crime, particularly crime relating to parked vehicles. It is a serious problem. On the other hand, we must ensure that we do not give the law-enforcing authorities weapons which are incompatible with the liberty of the subject. We believe that we have got the balance about right in the Bill. However, we are not so dogmatic as to believe that our formulation is the only one that can achieve a proper balance.
  We are grateful to those hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. We shall listen carefully to what they say in Committee. We have profited from what has been said today, and I am grateful for the broad welcome which the House has given the Bill.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Special Standing Committee—[Mr. Le Marchant.]

  Greater Manchester Bill [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): Mr. Speaker has selected the motion for an instruction.
  7.1 pm
  Mr. Fred Silvester: I start by apologising to the House for my voice. I hope that it will stay nasal and not disappear during the course of the evening.
  I shall set out as carefully as I can the provisions of the Bill and say something about its key provisions and why they are necessary. The Bill arises from the Local Government Act 1972, under which all the local Acts in the Greater Manchester area were due to expire at the end of 1979. As a result, the Greater Manchester council and nine of the 10 district councils have jointly promoted this Bill.
  The position of Tameside is peculiar in that it failed to pass the necessary resolution to be a joint promoter. It is therefore free to petition against clause 58, whereas the other districts are not free so to do. However, the Bill will apply to the Tameside area as well.
  The Bill is based on extensive discussions that were held within the Greater Manchester Association of Metropolitan Authorities. It has been discussed on many occasions. It was deposited in Parliament in November 1978. It has taken a long time to reach the House, partly because of the general election which took place in the

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  interval and, more particularly, because of the need to ensure that the Bills promoted by various different local authorities produce legislation without unnecessary local differences. As a result, the promoters held back so that they might see how similar provisions were treated in the Cheshire and Merseyside and other Bills.
  Those decisions were made in February and March of last year. They enabled the promoters to withdraw some clauses and to save a contest with counsel on five other petitions. I am sure that the ratepayers will regard this as an act of prudence, because the Bill has already incurred costs in excess of £150,000. Nevertheless, the Bill has been before Parliament for more than two years, and has had three carry-over motions. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment for laying an order to delay the automatic lapsing of the local Acts beyond the revised date of the end of 1980, allowing the council a further six months for the passage of the Bill. I am sure that the House will agree that the time has come to bring these matters to a conclusion.
  The Bill in its present form consists of 180 clauses and six schedules. That sounds a lot, but it should be remembered that some 260 local Acts were in force at the time of reorganisation. It is also smaller than the original Bill. Sixteen clauses were deleted by Committees in another place, and 17 clauses have been withdrawn by the promoters.
  I shall outline some of the Bill's provisions. I do so because undoubtedly there will be some hurly-burly in respect of specific clauses. Nevertheless, it is fair to say that the Bill contains other valuable items about which the House should know.
  I should add that petitions have been lodged against seven clauses. I shall deal with them as I proceed, because I know that the House will be particularly interested in the clauses to which objection has been made. I shall deal with them as I go through the Bill, with the exception of clause 58 on street processions. I imagine that that subject will take up most of the available time, and I shall deal with it at the end of my remarks.
  I shall not discuss part I and the final provisions of the Bill, which are interpretation clauses and technical matters relating to implementation.
  I shall deal, first, with part II. It provides for the continuance until the end of 1984 of certain existing powers to aid industry. These provisions are fewer than were originally planned, either because it was felt that the proposals were covered by existing law or because the Government opposed any new industry powers to be set up in local legislation.
  The Bill provides for local authorities to lend up to 90 per cent. of the security for the purchase or lease of land, and for the erection of any building whether within their boundaries or not. The Greater Manchester council and the city of Manchester, but no other district, may also make loans for the management of a building. Those of us who are concerned about the better industrial development of the area, an area which has suffered considerably from changes in the forms of industry, will welcome these clauses. The clauses will apply to both manufacturing and service industries.
  However, clauses 6, 7 and 8 concern manufacturing industry and enable grants to be given to small firms—in other words, firms with fewer than 100 employees—and
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  local authorities may prepare and improve industrial sites for use by companies. Local authorities may also guarantee the payment of rent on industrial buildings.
  These powers are not new. However, they are extended geographically, and apply to some parts of the area not previously affected. They all cover manufacturing, scientific and research companies, but, as I said, only a limited number cover service industries. The powers are the same as in Acts relatiing to other counties. The powers will expire in 1984—a fact which, again, is common to the other Acts. That limitation was imposed by both the previous and the present Governments in discussions with the Greater Manchester council, and it is related, I am told, to the fact that there is a continuing review of the whole subject of Government aid, which it is hoped will be concluded by 1984, although it will be realised that a review has been conducted in recent times.
  I come to part III, dealing with
  "Lands, Open Spaces and Municipal Property".
  I shall not go into the matter in great detail. In the main, it relates to updating powers. Let me give an example. The councils already have power to make byelaws for items such as swimming pools. But, of course, there has been a growth of leisure centres, which have a wider application. Clause 11 will give local authorities power to extend byelaws to leisure centres.
  There is a clause which is of particular interest to me, because it affects Platt Fields Park in Manchester. But clause 12 changes the rules relating to the closing of parks. Under the present law, it is not possible, basically to shut parks on a Sunday. Some may feel that that is quite right. But it makes life difficult when people are trying to arrange a large show. So changes in the law will make it more possible for such matters to be dealt with.
  There is one other matter which will probably interest people in the locality. There are some parks in Greater Manchester where transport is run. In Lyme Park there is a thing called a land train, and in Heaton Park I think there is a tram. There is some doubt as to whether those are legal, so clause 14 ensures that, if they are not legal already, they become legal.
  There is only one other clause in this part to which I draw attention—unless any hon. Member wishes to raise other matters. Clause 15 is quite interesting because it gives the local authority power to make an arrangement with a profit-making organisation in the running of leisure activities. For example, at present the local authority can deal with a charity or with a museum or art gallery run on a non-profit making basis, but if Manchester City, for example, had wished to continue with the ice rink and had wished to deal with a commercial undertaking, it would not have had the power to do so. This clause will give it such powers.
  In the main, the rest of this part is a tidying up operation.
  Part IV deals with highways. Very extensively, highways relate to the Greater Manchester council rather than the individual districts. There are a large number of clauses in this part. In order to guide hon. Members through them, I have taken the liberty of grouping some together. In clauses 17, 18, 19, and 24 we are concerned with obstructions to footpaths. This will make quite a difference to cities. It is concerned with the fact that, if one wants to put a kiosk or one of those rather interesting advertisement pillars in a pedestrianised area, one is liable to run foul of the law. Therefore, the clauses provide an

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  opportunity, particularly in pedestrianised areas but not only there, for kiosks for selling refreshments, for advertisement display, and even for trees in tubs. One hopes that that will have the effect of making life more pleasant.
  Incidentally, at the end of the Bill there is another clause which will help pedestrians. It strengthens the powers to stop people from cycling in areas which have been set aside for pedestrians. This is a cause of some anxiety on the part of old people in my constituency who are fearful of getting knocked down.
  A new offence is created by clause 23, which makes it an offence to interfere with local government property. Of course one cannot go around maliciously damaging that now, but there are circumstances in which one can interfere with it and no offence arise therefrom. An example has been mentioned to me. One finds extremely interesting bins on the side of the road—which contain grit to be used in icy conditions. If someone turfs out the grit it is not at all clear whether that is an offence. Also, a lot of damage is caused by such actions as the undoing of fuse boxes at the bottom of lamp standards, which are a nuisance to the public and are sometimes dangerous.
  There is also a provision which will interest people who are sometimes very aggrieved by the parking of heavy commercial vehicles. There is also a prohibition on the parking of commercial vehicles—that is, those over 13 cwt.—in residential streets between 9 pm and 8 am. This is rather wider than the present law, which is limited to 3-ton vehicles. People in the Greater Manchester area should know that it can be activated by people living in five houses affected, so if five neighbours feel that they have a grievance in this respect, they will now have a remedy.
  Sir Charles Fletcher-Cooke: In what clause is the new remedy?
  Mr. Silvester: It is in clause 26.
  Incidentally, dealing with clause 26 brings me to the first petition. I shall not spend much time on it, although I have no disrespect for the Central Electricity Generating Board. The CEGB has objected to seven clauses. They are mainly technical objections designed to ensure that the board's interests as a statutory undertaker are safeguarded. I am assured by the promoters that the board's objections can be met. We are expecting that in due course the petition regarding those objections will be withdrawn.
  Two other clauses in this part have attracted petitions. It is right that I should spend a little time on those, because they affect a lot of people. They concern footpaths. We all know how steamed up people rightly get about the preservation of footpaths, particularly in a highly urban area, where people rely upon them for recreation. First, clause 28 allows footpaths and bridle paths to be stopped up for 18 months provided that an alternative can be made, if possible, but even if an alternative cannot be made. The main function of clause 28 is to prevent people from moving across areas where land reclamation schemes are taking place.
  As hon. Members will know, in the Greater Manchester area there are considerable areas of land which are undergoing reclamation. They are very large areas. Very large, fast-moving earth-moving equipment is being used. This petition was raised against the clause by the Ramblers Association and the Peak and Northern Footpaths Society.
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  However, I am pleased to say that agreement has now been reached and the petition is being withdrawn because an amendment to the clause has been incorporated, which will limit this power to circumstances in which reclamation schemes are being undertaken.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: I understand from those who are concerned about footpaths that they feel that some progress has been made towards meeting them. However, will the hon. Gentleman give some assurance about the length of time for which closures will be permitted under the new wording as opposed to the old wording? There have been one or two reclamation schemes in the Greater Manchester area which, for one reason or another, have dragged on for periods of two to three years. Many people are anxious about footpaths being closed or diverted for that length of time. It seems reasonable that 12 months should be the maximum time for which a footpath should be closed, even for a reclamation scheme.
  Mr. Silvester: The Bill provides for a period of 18 months. As I understand it—I shall check this before the end of the debate—there is no power for an extension of that period. That is the limit. It is rather more than 12 months, but not as bad as two to three years. The amendment does not alter that. It is concerned with limiting it to reclamation schemes. The petition has been withdrawn, and I understand that the petitioners are satisfied.
  Mr. Bennett: The Ramblers Association and the Peak and Northern Footpaths Society, as bodies, have been parties to the discussions. However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has many constituents, as I have, who are concerned about footpath matters, and some of those do not seem to be as happy as the bodies that represent them. That may be because they have not been made fully aware of what is intended in the Bill.
  Mr. Silvester: I hope that the hon. Member will be practical about this. Of course some people in every constituency are concerned about these powers. But reclamation scheme can be very dangerous. I was told today of a foreman who was working on such a schemes and who parked his car nearby and an earth-moving vehicle was driven over it, not only squashing his car but burying it. It was never found again. Hon. Members can imagine the circumstances if that were a child or someone out for a walk. It is a very difficult matter, but this is a reasonable compromise.
  I can speak only personally, and I have not had any representation—although this is a fairly recent agreement—to the effect that people are not satisfied with the agreement that has been reached.
  The second petition dealing with this area concerns clause 30, which is about bulls on footpaths.
  Sir Charles Fletcher-Cooke: Emotional bulls.
  Mr. Silvester: They may be emotional bulls, indeed. My hon. and learned Friend is right. The Wildlife and Countryside Bill tries to overcome this problem by stopping the bulls from becoming emotional. It does that by the simple process of either restricting this to bulls of less than 10 months of age or by putting the bulls in fields with cows and heifers. I do not make light of this matter,

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  because it affects ramblers very much. I regret the fact that I am not competent to know whether that practice has the desired effect on the bull.
  Mr. John Bruce-Gardyne: That depends on the bull.
  Mr. Silvester: Yes, and on the heifers and cows. All that I can say is that this petition has been received from the National Farmers Union and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. They dispute the desirability of the clause, which would exclude bulls from any field through which there is a footpath, largely on the ground that it would interfere with the methods of dairy production which operate in some parts of the country. As I believe that there is no cow at all in my constituency, I am at a slight disadvantage in dealing with these matters. I can only say that the petition will, of course, be carefully considered and will have to be balanced against the legitimate requirements of ramblers, who are naturally cross when they see a "Beware of the bull" sign at the end of a path. That is enough to put anybody off, and they do not go far enough to see whether there are any cows there. Nevertheless, I do not think that it would be satisfactory to have a requirement in Manchester which differed for the national requirement under the Wildlife and Countryside Bill now before Parliament, which may therefore lead to a change in this Bill in Committee.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: My hon. Friend will recognise that the Bill also covers parts of my constituency, where the incidence of bulls is rather greater than it is in his. When legislating on these matters, it is important to bear in mind that ramblers, whose interests we all respect, are out for purposes of recreation, but, that if we impose disabilities and inhibitions upon the farming industry, we are dealing with the problems of people whose livelihood is at stake. It is at least arguable that they should have priority over the legitimate rights of those who are simply exercising their enjoyment and recreation. I put it to my hon. Friend that, although the Bill deals for the most part with the requirements of an industrial community, we must bear in mind that it also impinges upon country areas. These are problems of some moment and concern to those who work in the countryside.
  Mr. Silvester: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting that point so clearly. I think that it is well recognised by the promoters of the Bill that they have to achieve this balance. I therefore reiterate my earlier point that the Committee may wish closely to examine this provision.
  I do not think that it would benefit the House for me to deal with any further clauses in part IV. However, if hon. Members wish, I shall be happy to do so.
  Part V deals with public health. Again, it contains a large number of clauses. For the convenience of the House, I shall group them as follows. A number of clauses deal with matters relating to food. Clause 32 deals with hawkers of food, clause 36 with the disposal of food waste, and clause 54 with floating restaurants, which are now being developed and which at present are not covered.
  I draw particular attention to clause 53, which empowers magistrates temporarily to close food premises or stalls where danger to health exists. They will now be
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  able to do that in 24 hours instead of three days, as under the current law. One recognises that there is great danger in not acting swiftly in this matter. I therefore hope that the House will approve of that provision.
  There is also some further control of personal services. Clause 31 requires hairdressers and barbers to be registered. They can already be controlled by the local council, provided that it knows where they are. The purpose of registration is to know where they are.
  Clause 33 provides a new power covering acupuncture, ear-piercing, electrolysis, which I am told is the removal of unwanted hair, and tattooing. Again, these areas have grown substantially. A serious outbreak of hepatitis B in Birmingham in 1977 arose from lack of control of these matters. As this area is developing, it is wise for the local council to pay regard to the necessary standards of hygiene.
  A series of clauses deals with what I might call demolition and dust as well as with rats and mice. They are clauses 35, 37, 38, 39, and 40. The latter is an extensive clause dealing with demolition, to be read in conjunction with schedule 2. Clause 51, empowers the local council to lop trees which are a nuisance to neighbours because they block out the light.
  A further series of clauses deals with buildings which in one way or another are unsatisfactorily sealed off. For example, if a house has been broken into and needs to be sealed off from trespassers, that is covered by clause 41. If it is derelict and needs to be made safe, that is covered by clause 42. If it is inadequately fenced, that is covered by clause 44. I do not think that I need go through them all.
  Clause 52 is an interesting provision to deal with the circumstances, which I believe have occurred in the Greater Manchester area, in which the council undertakes the demolition of a building but is unable to recover the money for weatherproofing the building next door and therefore does not do so. That loophole is now covered.
  I draw particular attention to clause 56, a clause of some significance dealing with dealers in second-hand goods. The clause requires the registration of such dealer—a provision which I understand covers antique dealers. It imposes upon them the requirement to keep a record of their purchases, with a power of entry for the police to inspect. They may not buy from children under the age of 16. As one might expect, there are various exemptions, such as secondhand cars, charity shops, scrap metal and waste paper, and places where the secondhand material is secondary to new material. The chief constable is anxious to have this power. Apart from any control over health that it may provide, it will also help in the tracing of stolen property.
  There are then a number of miscellaneous matters with which I shall not weary the House. I draw attention only to those which affect a large number people. Clause 43 starts the business of controlling dogs. At the moment, the police can take away stray dogs as a matter of anti-rabies and general control. The clause empowers the districts to appoint people to do that. It would, of course, cover organisations such as the RSPCA which could also undertake this work.
  Clauses 49 and 50 will be helpful to tenants in certain cases. Clause 49 enables the local authority to re-establish electricity when it has been cut off for reasons other than non-payment of money, that is to say, where something

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  is defective, and to recover the cost from the landlord. Clause 50 will require a proper supply of lighting to a domestic property.
  Part VI deals with law and order, and includes a provision which I did not realise was necessary. Clause 59 enables policemen to enforce byelaws. I had always believed that they were able to do so, but apparently that is not so.
  Clauses 60, 61 and 62 relate to safety standards of stands erected temporarily and cover tents and marquees where there could be a big public meeting. They particularly deal with fire precautions.
  Clause 62 contains regulations concerning touting. It empowers the local authority to designate certain areas and streets where touting for hotels, restaurants and entertainment and hawking, selling, photographing—people coming up and flicking a camera when one has not asked them to—and hiring transport may not take place without the consent of the council. That may sound a wide provision, but clause 62 contains the word "importuning". The provision is not to cover casual use but to stop people from being bothered to an extent that amounts to being importuned.
  As I know that it is of great interest to hon. Members, I shall return to clause 58, which relates to street processions.
  Part VII deals with fire precautions, and I shall not go into in detail. It covers such premises as tall buildings, which are becoming increasingly important.
  Part VIII deals with flammable material stacked in the open. A number of agreements have already been reached with, for example, brewers and others likely to be affected. However, it does not cover such situations as the disastrous Woolworth's fire in Manchester. Such provisions have to be on a national basis.
  Part IX is the subject of a petition. It deals with night cafes and entertainment clubs. The petition is a joint one from Kentucky Fried Chicken and the Takeaway and Fast Food Federation Limited. It covers clauses 76 to 85. It requires the registration of entertainment clubs, such as private cinema clubs, and night cafes open between 11 pm and 5 am, and allows the council to impose conditions such as fire regulations. It does not cover licensed premises. It no longer covers takeaways. There was objection and they were withdrawn. However, the provision still covers takeaways where food can be consumed on the premises. That is the basis of the objection by Kentucky Fried Chicken.
  Provisions against clubs have operated in Manchester since 1975 and seem to be perfectly satisfactory. Provisions against night cafes have operated in Manchester since 1971, and 16 are currently registered. There is a power throughout the country under the Late Night Refreshment Houses Act 1969, but a licence cannot be refused and conditions are not attached to it. The council can only limit the hours in which the premises can be open. Greater Manchester therefore regards this as an important power which it will seek to sustain in Committee despite the petition.
  Clause 79 raises penalties to £500—which is in one case the same but in others higher than current Acts, where they exist—where the club or cafe is habitually used for unlawful purposes and nothing is done about it. It relates to undesirable characters lurking about a cafe at night.
  Part XIII, clause 113, is similar and deals with entertainment licences. Basically, there are two kinds of licence. The licensing justices can operate over most of
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  Manchester and under a national Act, but there are many local Acts that not only provide special powers but also cover boxing and wrestling. The effect of the clause is to extend the provision to boxing and wrestling generally and to make the licensing by the local authority rather than the justices. However it is a clause that has to be adopted by the council and does not operate automatically. If the council still wishes to use licensing justices, presumably it can, although it would not be able to control boxing and wrestling.
  Parts X and XV deal with street trading outside and inside Manchester, where the systems are different.
  Part XI deals with finance. Clause 98 enables rates to be collected. Where the tenant pays the landlord and the landlord does not cough up, it enables the local authority to proceed against the landlord rather than the tenant, which is right. The provision may be superseded in general law, in which case it will be dropped in Committee.
  The only other clause that I shall draw to the attention of hon. Members in that section is clause 100. It is of interest to those who help the local authority in a voluntary capacity. The provision is contained in other local Acts. For example, people who take out residents of social security homes or the disabled are not covered as employees by the insurance policy of the council. The clause enables them to be covered.
  Parts XII, XV, XVI, XVII, and XVIII either continue existing local Acts or absorb them into the general law in respect of airports and districts. Part XIV adopts the general law in relation to markets and slaughterhouses.
  Coming to part XIX, at present anybody can use the coat of arms of the local authority on a commercial operation without permission. Clause 158 seeks to protect the coat of arms and to stop that from happening.
  There are two petitions outstanding in relation to clauses 162 and 164. Clause 162 relates to hackney carriages. As a result of activities in the other place, the clause, as it has now emerged, extends metered driving from anywhere within the district plus four miles around the district, provided that that four miles is wholly within the area of the Greater Manchester council. I hope that that is clear. In practice, it means that when I get a cab to Stockport station I shall be covered, whereas previously I was not. However, in a cab from the airport to Cheshire, one would not be covered.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: The point that causes most annoyance is when people arrive at Manchester airport and are not clear what will be covered by the Act. As I understand it, if I arrived at Manchester airport, I would be entitled to go four miles outside the Manchester city boundary. However, it would still mean that those who live within, say, six or seven miles of the airport, in parts of Stockport, Sale or Partington in Trafford, which are within Greater Manchester but more than four miles from the city, would be in difficulty. I hope that we shall have clarification on that.
  Mr. Silvester: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The main cause of annoyance arises out of the airport use. I am sorry that the Bill is now as it is rather than as it was previously. I should like to see the development of Manchester airport, and it is a pity if anything happens which makes that more difficult.
  Under the Bill as amended in the other place, a passenger who arrives at Manchester airport and wants to

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  go anywhere within the city of Manchester is covered by the law, and it is a metered ride. The position there is exactly the same. If the passenger wants to go to Stockport, or somewhere else within the Greater Manchester area, at present it is not a metered ride, but it will become so provided that the journey is not more than four miles outside the Manchester city boundary. However, if a passenger wishes to go south into Cheshire he is not covered, and will not be covered after the enactment of the Bill. Therefore, he will have to negotiate his fare in the existing way. I understand that the charge is often an extra 50 per cent.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: What the hon. Gentleman has described is a great source of annoyance to many people in the Greater Manchester area. The taxi drivers claim that they cannot pick up fares in other authorities' areas. Because they are precluded from doing that when they are coming back, they say that they must charge one and a half times or one and a third times the fare. I have had instances of people being charged double fares for those journeys. If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned about the matter, why does he support the clause?
  Mr. Alfred Morris: While the hon. Gentleman will not wish to talk out the Bill by speaking at much greater length, would he care to comment briefly on the representations that have been made to right hon. and hon. Members by and on behalf of the taxi drivers in the Manchester area?
  Mr. Silvester: I support the clause because it is half a loaf. The Bill as now proposed will alleviate the problem about which the right hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) is concerned. The taxi drivers wish to retain the restriction. That view is moving in the other direction. I believe that it is in the long-term interests of all the citizens of Manchester, including the taxi drivers, that the provision should be loosened up as much as possible. I regret that we have not gone further, but I am prepared to accept what we have. I hope that the House will not find its being only half a loaf a reason for throwing out the clause.
  Mr. Orme: If the taxi drivers could pick up fares on their way back in the other districts into which they go, that would remote some of their arguments for charging the present excessisve fares. Is there any provision in the Bill that will allow that?
  Mr. Silvester: I understand the point. The taxi drivers' petition is to retain the restriction. The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion is not covered by the Bill. It would require a degree of agreement that is probably not forthcoming.
  If the taxi service were a Greater Manchester council service, it would be possible to apply that kind of provision across the whole county. It has not been thought fit to make it a county service. I am happy to continue discussing the matter, but I am aware of the time, and I do not think that I can add anything further.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: The major problem in Greater Manchester is that the right to ply for hire as a taxi driver involves buying the licence plate. That should not have happened, but it has happened over the years.
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  Unfortunately, the licencne plate changes hands for very different sums in the different parts of Greater Manchester. The result is that those who bought plates in Manchester and Salford feel that it would be unfair to allow someone who has bought a plate for a much smaller sum in one of the other districts to operate in the same area.
  In equity, we should be trying to abolish the system of buying and selling licence plates, which has produced considerable anomalies for people in the area. It has also imposed considerable hardship on those who want to become taxi proprietors, because they must pay large sums to obtain their plates, and they then have to try to protect their investment by pressing for what really are restictive practices.
  Mr. Silvester: The hon. Gentleman has made his point. The provision is not in the Bill, and it was not one of the matters raised by the districts in bringing the Bill forward as a joint promotion. The hon. Gentleman may well be right, but for the provision to be introduced something should have been done long ago to persuade the districts.
  If hon. Members will forgive me, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Montgomery) will deal specifically with clause 164 on the direct labour organisation of the city of Manchester. However, I draw attention to the fact that there is a petition relating to this matter. The clause is concerned with the power of the direct labour organisation to undertake construction work in other parts of Greater Manchester, a power that has been added to the Bill by the city of Manchester as a joint promoter. It has been objected to by the National Federation of Building Trades Employers and the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors.
  I come finally to clause 58, dealing with processions. I apologise if hon. Members think that I have been a long time in getting here, but, since nobody else is to talk about the rest of the Bill, I think it important that the person who introduces it should do so. I should like to see the clause retained. It is probably superfluous for me to say what it involves, as I am sure that every hon. Member knows. Some hon. Members have been concerned with other county Bills and know far better than I do.
  The clause provides for three days' notice before processions take place. That is in line with the Select Committee's proposals and with the West Midlands County Council Act. Generally, the promoters have tried to make sure that the clause is on all fours with similar provisions operating elsewhere. The Government have expressed a wish through my hon. and learned Friend the then Minister of State, Home Office—the reference is col. 114 of Hansard for 21 January 1980—that as far as possible there should be consistency. The provision now applies to the counties of Merseyside, Cheshire, West Midlands and the Isle of Wight.
  The need for the clause is generally recognised, and is strongly advanced by the police. As some hon. Members will know, because their names are on it, there is a petition, with a wide range of names on the list of those who oppose the clause. I am surprised to see that they include the Friends of the Earth.
  The chief constable has provided information about the number of times marches have taken place in the Greater Manchester area and about the size of the problem. His figures for the five-year period 1974–78 show that there were 2,462 marches and processions, involving 22,578

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  police officers of various ranks, and attended by over a quarter of a million members of the public. In the 12 months of 1979, there were 591 marches attended by 157,000 members of the public and involving 5,000 police officers. I quote those figures to show that this is not a minimal problem. It has cost considerable public expenditure and the diversion of police resources.
  It is important for the House to recognise that it is not simply a question of the policing of the procession and the counter demonstration if it arises. Police resources are not limitless. This large number of police, if involved in these duties, are not doing something else. It should be reasonable for the House to allow the chief constable and his officers to plan their resources. The central ingredient of a power of notice is that the police should be able to deploy their resources to the most efficient purpose. If the police are required to make a large number of officers available in anticipation of an event that is difficult to gauge—they may get information on the grapevine or, in the case of the National Front, by direct conversation—it is extremely difficult for them to plan.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: The hon. Gentleman quotes the number of processions that took place. On how many occasions did the organisers fail to give notice?
  Mr. Silvester: I have details of four recent occasions when the chief constable and his assistant claim that there was unwillingness to give information, which led to an unnecessary use of resources.
  Mr. Bennett: What were they? Will the hon. Gentleman give the information?
  Mr. Silvester: I am happy to do so. There is the famous case—I suppose the most famous—of the National Front march in October 1977. It was decided to transfer the march to Longsight after discussion with the National Front when there was no forthcoming information regarding demonstrations on the other side. A case is quoted in March 1980 when the Tameside Trades Council arranged a meeting in Ashton-under-Lyne which eventually had to be moved because it was not possible for the meeting to take place. A Left-wing group stated its intention to go ahead with a meeting in March at the West End community centre but would not say when the meeting was to take place.
  In April 1980, the National Front proposed to hold a march in the Oldham town centre. Intelligence was received from an association known as CARL, its Oldham branch, that it would be organising a counter-rally. The police were unable to get information regarding that rally. On Sunday 23 November 1980, the National Front assembled in the centre of Bolton for the purpose of holding a march and demonstration. Again, opposing factions, eventually numbering 1,000, assembled at the Bolton institute.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: I think that the Bolton occasion was the same as that at Oldham which the hon. Gentleman has described. Although there is no need to give notice in the city of Manchester and many other parts of Greater Manchester, there happens to be a requirement to give notice in Oldham. If it is so important to get this new power, why did not the police use their existing power in Oldham? I understand that they took no action against any of the people involved at Oldham who failed to give notice, although there is a requirement to give notice. If
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  the police did not bother to use the existing law in Oldham, what is the point of asking for such power in the rest of Greater Manchester?
  Mr. Silvester: That is a fair point which I also asked. There is, however, a practical problem. There are three categories of notice in Greater Manchester—24 hours, 36 hours and 48 hours, depending on which part of the county one is situated in—or nothing. It varies from place to place. There are different rules in adjacent districts. It is difficult operationally to make any good sense of that situation. If these powers are to exist, it is only reasonable to have a uniform practice, known to everyone, which the police can observe across the whole county. I do not know whether any prosecutions will result from the occasion in November. It is, however, not unreasonable to say that the police, when faced with these circumstances, would not wish to follow up these powers in the patchwork way that they operate. I doubt whether notice of 24 hours is of any great value unless shorter notice, as this Bill permits, as did the West Midlands Bill, is practicable.
  Mr. Orme: The overwhelming number of cases given by the hon. Gentleman concern the National Front. The chief constable has power, if he thinks that there will be danger of public disorder, to prohibit those demonstrations. He did not prohibit any of them. He put on excessive protection for those demonstrations at colossal cost. The proposal in the Bill is absolute nonsense. That is why many of my hon. Friends and I oppose it. This matter, if it is to be dealt with, cannot be approached on a patchwork basis. It has to be dealt with on a national basis. Stronger action has to be taken. The chief constable in Greater Manchester has not given the type of lead that is necessary.
  Mr. Silvester: The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to his view about the chief constable. We are concerned with a situation in which there has grown up over the last few years a measure of agreement in different parts of the country and in a Select Committee of the House about the nature of the power that should be operated. There is no immediate prospect, so far as one can ascertain, that the Government will take over this clause and introduce it. If that were the case, we would not have to pursue it. We cannot wait for something that may not happen. We are obliged to proceed with the Bill before the House. There is no way in which it can be argued that we are doing anything in the Bill that has not been done elsewhere. It is on all fours with what has become established practice.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: Practice varies between two proposals. Fifty per cent. of the promoters of these Private Bills have agreed to drop the procession clause altogether and to require no notice and allow the law to stay as it is. The other half have opted for this sort of compromise. It is unfair to suggest that what has happened in the West Midlands, Cheshire, Merseyside and the Isle of Wight is the national none. They are the exceptions rather than the rule.
  Mr. Silvester: That is not really right. I accept that some areas do not have the power and that some people have not sought the power. It seems to me that where the power is sought and where it is recommended by a Select Committee of the House, the terms of the power, as set out in the Bill, are not substantially different. So far as possible, we have lined ourselves up with powers already taken. It is clear that this is the central point. It would be unfair of me to prolong the debate.
  Mr. George Cunningham: I intervene not through any connection with Manchester but in a home affairs capacity. The hon. Gentleman spoke as if there were no prospect of the Government coming forward with a proposal on this subject. He must be aware that the whole subject of public order is currently being actively considered within the Home Office and that a Home Office Minister has conceded that the matter would be better dealt with in national legislation ultimately when the review is completed.
  Mr. Silvester: That may have been an overstatement. I did not intend to imply that it would never happen. In any event, "never" is a meaningless word in politics. Although the review has been proceeding, it has not been possible for us to receive an indication that it will be completed within a stated time. That means that we would be left with the option of dropping the Bill in anticipation of what is yet to come without a specified date or proceeding as we are. If there is a national power, presumably it will be the same as or will supercede the local Act.
  I have been as clear as I possibly can. There will be many points of difference during the course of the Bill. If it should be necessary, and if it is thought that I have not made something clear, I hope that I shall be given the opportunity to do so at a later stage.
  8 pm
  Mr. Jim Callaghan: This is a Private Bill and one of a series of major Bills promoted to retain provisions repealed by the Local Government Act 1972. A general powers Bill of this nature deals with many topics that affect a great many people and it must be scrutinised with great care. I know that, from experience, as I spent many days in Committee on a similar Bill, namely, the County of Merseyside Bill. I have already heard many of the arguments that have been advanced this evening. I feel that it is a privilege that I am able to compare the provisions of both Bills.
  The Local Government Act 1972 established new local government areas in England and Wales. In section 262 it repealed, with certain exceptions, the provisions contained in private Acts in force in certain areas. The powers conferred by those Acts ceased to have any effect in metropolitan counties such as the Greater Manchester metropolitan county at the end of 1979. Unless they are re-enacted by means of other legislation, we shall be in some difficulty with the law.
  The 1972 Act provided a unique opportunity for a thorough revision of all local legislation. From 1984 onwards local legislation will be well documented and much more readily understandable by the public. I am glad to say that the Greater Manchester authority seized the opportunity for a thorough revision of all its local legislation. The Bill represents the outcome of months of scrutinising existing powers, examining and disregarding a multitude of provisions whose worth has long since passed away and identifying the relatively few provisions that have shown the need for their retention or enactment. The work has constituted three and a half years of detailed study and close collaboration between officers of the county councils and the 10 district councils involved. That has been done at a cost of £150,000. That work should cut out much of the dead wood and greatly reduce the bulk of local law that is cluttering the statute book. It is a tidying-up operation that will benefit everyone.
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  The principal issue that the Greater Manchester council raised in its memorandum is as follows:
  "The greater Manchester authorities are of the opinion that there is a large corpus of valuable local law which has not been overtaken by national legislation. If action were not now taken to preserve it, that whole body of law would have been lost automatically at the end of 1979."
  I believe that that is true. Private Bills are necessary so that local authorities are enabled to carry out certain works and certain projects that they desire to undertake. That is generally accepted. There are matters of general public importance that can be decided only by Parliament, especially if there is a conflict of interest.
  In one of the clauses there is such a conflict. I draw attention to clause 30, which has already been referred to by the hon. Members for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) and for Knutsford (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne). It states:
  "(1) No person shall drive or lead or cause to be driven or led in any street or public place in a district any bull unless it is properly secured and kept under proper control and no person, being the occupier of any field or enclosure through which there is a footpath or bridleway, shall permit any bull to be at large in that field or enclosure.
  (2) Any person who contravenes the provisions of this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50."
  I warmly applaud those subsections. I know that the clause is supported strongly by the various footpath organisations. I have had considerable correspondence with the Ramblers Association, the Footpaths Association and various other bodies, which are extremely concerned. One of my constituents, Mr. David Lee, who is one of the chief officials of the Footpaths Association, is extremely concerned about these matters. He has written to me and lobbied me.
  There is a conflict between those who want to use the countryside for recreation purposes and those who want to earn a living as farmers. I am sure that clause 30, which I warmly applaud, will be in conflict with the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, which is passing through another place. There is great concern among ramblers and country lovers about the effect of that Bill. It is proposed that a farmer should be able to graze a bull in a field containing a public right of way as long as the bull is not of a recognised dairy breed or if it is accompanied by a cow, cows or heifers. Legislation along these lines already applies in Scotland. However, there is a difference. Most of the footpaths in Scotland are on the higher ground and mountains and well above the fields in which bulls graze. The position is not quite the same in England.
  In England and Wales there are local byelaws that vary from one part of the country to another. We should like the variations to be tidied up. However, in about three-quarters of England and Wales there are byelaws in force that prohibit the grazing of bulls in fields containing public paths. Those byelaws will be overridden by the proposed legislation, because I believe that the provisions in clause 30 will be overruled.
  The Ramblers Association believes, as I do, that bulls should always be regarded as potentially dangerous, irrespective of their breed, and regardless of whether they are with cows and heifers. The safety division of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food agrees with that view. It has stated:
  "Bulls are always a potential danger and it is advisable to treat them with extreme caution."

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  The National Union of Agricultural Workers has said that it considers bulls to be an extremely dangerous species of animal, despite the long outmoded legal classification of them as domestic. That union should know. In 1979 alone three farmworkers were killed by bulls and 27 were injured. A pensioner was killed when walking near Thornaby in Cleveland in October of last year.
  Civil servants drafting the Wildlife and Countryside Bill have been persuaded that bulls running with cows are safe. They may be safer, but they are definitely not safe. Footpaths are often used not only by ramblers who can take care of themselves but by families out for a stroll, by pensioners and by children taking a short cut to school. It is vital that bulls and walkers are kept apart. Surveys have shown that walking in the countryside is a popular recreation which is becoming more popular each year. By introducing the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, which will make walking in the countryside more dangerous, the Government are doing a great disservice to a substantial section of our community.
  I ask the Government to clarify the position relating to the conflict of interest between the Ramblers Association, the farmers, clause 30 and the proposals contained in the Wildlife and Countryside Bill relating to the countryside, which will shortly be introduced into the House. The hon. Member for Withington mentioned that point. Which Bill will take precedence? The Bill that we are discussing has taken three and a half years to bring to the Floor of the House, at a cost of £150,000. With all that time, money and energy spent on it, I wonder whether it will take precedence. Are the promoters of the Bill wasting their time and money? I sincerely hope not. I invite the Government to tell us.
  8.12 pm
  Mr. Fergus Montgomery: I shall not detain the House for long, as many hon. Members wish to speak and time is limited.
  I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) for the enormous amount of work that he has carried out on the Bill. I shall confine my remarks to the two most controversial clauses, namely, clause 58 which deals with notice of street processions, and clause 164 which deals with the Manchester direct works department. Both issues appear to make Opposition Members see red. No doubt we shall have a stormy debate about them.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Withington discussed clause 58. The issue of notice of street processions has been debated in the House over and over again. I am sure that we are all aware of the arguments both for and against. Indeed, we should know the arguments off by heart. In 1980 various Acts were passed for the counties of Merseyside, Cheshire, West Midlands and Isle of Wight. All contained a modified processions clause. Clause 58 is identical with clauses that have been passed in other Acts for other areas.
  When we debated the West Midlands County Council Act 1980 my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, previously the Minister of State at the Home Office, said:
  "There are grounds for debating the provisions of the new clause, and even in its present form it may not be regarded as suitable by every local authority that wishes to have a notice of procession provision in local legislation.
  However, I believe that it is desirable that some measure of uniformity should be achieved wherever the inclusion of such
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  requirements in local legislation is felt to be necessary. No doubt local authorities will wish to look at the new clause when considering how they wish to formulate any proposals that they intend to put before the House."—[Official Report, 21 January 1980; Vol. 977, c. 114.]
  We are not simply copying the West Midlands. In the Greater Manchester area there is a real need for this clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Withington quoted a letter from the chief constable of Greater Manchester. Despite some uncomplimentary remarks by Opposition Members, I believe that the chief constable is doing an extremely good job. He more than anyone else realises the difficulties.
  The clause is required because of an omission from the Public Order Act 1936. That Act empowers the chief constable to impose on marches such conditions as he considers necessary to preserve public order. One Opposition Member referred to a patchwork pattern. That is exactly what we have in Greater Manchester. In certain parts of Greater Manchester advance notice may be 24 hours, 36 hours or 48 hours. We are seeking to bring some conformity to the system and to get rid of the patchwork pattern.
  Hon. Members will be aware that clause 164 has a stormy history. By it Manchester city council seeks powers to extend the operations of its direct labour building organisation. There is a great deal of difference between the council of the city of Manchester and the Greater Manchester county council. My wife is seeking reelection in May to the Greater Manchester county council. She is fearful that every time anyone confuses the two councils it costs her support. Whereas the city of Manchester appears to have got itself into a financial tangle, the Greater Manchester county council appears to operate its affairs in a different manner.
  Currently the direct labour organisations are confined to carrying out new construction work only for their own parent local authority, although maintenance may be performed for certain specified public bodies. Manchester city council, through this clause, is seeking to allow its direct labour organisation to carry out new building and other works for other local authorities in the Greater Manchester area. In addition, it wishes to perform work for the police, the water authorities, the Greater Manchester passenger transport executive and the health authorities in the county of Greater Manchester. If allowed, that will provide a precedent for all other authorities wishing to extend their direct labour operations. That would be in complete opposition to the Government's general policy towards direct labour organisations.
  I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, when he replies, will point out that under the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 the Government have introduced proposals which will subject direct labour organisations to more stringent financial and management controls, and which will make councils more accountable for the operation of their direct labour organisations. Those proposals are intended to operate from April 1981 and will be supplemented by a code of practice and delegated legislation now in the process of preparation.
  The intention is that direct labour organisations should face effective competition under conditions that they have never yet experienced so that local authorities and the

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  general public can make a more realistic assessment of the efficiency of direct labour organisations and the value for money obtained from their operations.
  I quote in aid a statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment during the debate on Second Reading of the 1980 measure. He said:
  "It would be wise for the direct labour organisations to prove that they can work effectively within their own areas before we consider whether we should extend the areas in which they trade."—[Official Report, 5 February 1980; Vol. 1159, c. 225.]
  My right hon. Friend's words should be borne in mind tonight because competition will never take place on a completely comparable basis.
  Direct labour organisations are not the same as private building contractors. Of necessity the private sector must organise its operations to cover its costs, maintain a positive cash flow and make a profit. Direct labour organisations are not subject to such onerous disciplines. The proposed new system goes much of the way to compensate for the economic gaps in direct labour operations by demanding considerable competition under controlled conditions and by requiring direct labour to make a return on capital. Such a system must be followed vigorously.
  There can be no case for extending direct labour operations until the system has been proved. Since direct labour organisations are not and never will be totally commercial, they should not engage in operations in which public money is exposed to increasing risks. It is wrong to confer these powers on Manchester city council alone. It is wrong in principle to allow local authorities to disperse ratepayers' money on commercial ventures, albeit in the public sector alone, when there is already a fully developed private sector whose function is to take risks. After the Bill obtains its Second Reading, I hope to move an instruction on clause 164.
  8.21 pm
  Mr. Charles R. Morris: The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) had a formidable task in moving this the Second Reading of this blockbuster of a Bill with 180 clauses. I was grateful for the elucidation that his speech provided, I noted carefully the arguments that he advanced in relation to the politically sensitive clause 58, which requires organisers of processions to give 72 hours notice of a procession. Frankly, I subscribe to the view that such measures should be the subject of national legislation.
  I seek an explanation of three other clauses. First, I draw the attention of the House to clause 154, which deals with Manchester central art gallery. My interest in the art gallery goes back a number of years. In concert with my parliamentary colleagues I was involved in acquiring for the city of Manchester that delightful picture by Stubbs of the cheetah with Indian servants. We were also involved in representing Manchester's claim for that impressive portrait of a notary by Matsys. Consequently I am surprised at clause 145 and am anxious to hear an explanation.
  The clause indicates that the art gallery and all works and other objects of art therein
  "shall be held in trust by the Manchester council for the benefit of the citizens of Manchester".
  Subsection (3) says:
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  "Notwithstanding anything in subsection (2) above, the Manchester council may from time to time sell or exchange any works or other objects of art for the time being acquired by them",
  and subsection (3) (a) says that
  "the Manchester council shall, if reasonably practicable, consult with the donor or with the personal representatives or trustees"
  of those who have made art gifts or grants to the city. That is a formidable power that the city council is taking on behalf of the art gallery. What will be the attitude of the council? What will be the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government when they read that the art gallery has the power to sell off works of art that have been gathered over a century or more?
  The art gallery seeks that power. One might call the provision the "art mart" clause. One of the possible consequences is a boom in auctioning works of art. If Manchester seeks the power, other local authorities will follow suit. I do not know what it will do for the citizens and art lovers of Manchester, but it will certainly fill the pockets of art auctioneers. One is entitled to ask what is envisaged by the art gallery committee in Manchester in seeking such an additional power.
  I turn to clauses 162 and 163. Concern has been expressed on behalf of Manchester's taxi drivers about clause 162. One can understand their anxiety about the extension of the metered driving restrictions. Clause 163 highlights the long-standing acrimony between taxi drivers and private hire drivers. I invite the House to consider what is involved. The proposal is that a private hire vehicle shall display no
  "sign, notice, mark, illumination or any other feature".
  and that no such features shall be displayed even
  "in the district on or from any motor vehicle"—
  I understand the feelings of taxi drivers about the activities of private hire drivers, but perhaps we are taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Is there not a better way of dealing with the activities of unscrupulous hire drivers? If a private hire vehicle is to contain no sign, notice, mark or illumination, the private hire driver is denied the right enjoyed by the owner of any business, commercial or other vehicle operating on the streets, roads, and motorways of Manchester. It is almost an inalienable right of the owner of a vehicle to advertise on the vehicle his commercial or business interest.
  I do not seek to give any advantage to the private hire owner or operator. Some of them are highly unscrupulous. My sympathies in those conflicts are on most occasions with the taxi cab operator. However, we should not introduce such restrictions to deal with that problem.
  I want to deal briefly with the arguments in regard to the direct works department—dealt with in clause 164—to which reference has been made. I do so because the largest, the most efficient and most successful direct works department in the country is located in the city of Manchester. A large element of that direct works department is in my constituency in Openshaw at the Bessemer Street works. I am concious that this undertaking, with an annual turnover of £49 million, employing 4,400 workers, 400 of whom are young apprentices, ought to command the support of the Government. I should like an assurance from the Minister that he will support the Greater Manchester council in this clause and oppose the petition to which the hon. Member for Withington referred in moving the Second Reading.
  The existence of the Manchester direct works department has been for the benefit of the ratepayers of

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  Manchester. Its very existence has discouraged the sort of tendering that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Litherland) identified when he was chairman of the direct works department and broke the ring that existed at that time in tendering for the contracts for cement. His was a signal achievement at that time by breaking that commercial ring.
  In my constituency recently, I was delighted to see the opening of the one hundred thousandth house built by Manchester's direct works department. Of even greater interest is the Openshaw village development in my constituency, which was built almost entirely by apprentices of the direct works department. At a time when the number of apprenticeships in Manchester in the building industry is contracting in the private sector, the direct works department's encouragement of young people in acquiring the necessary skills to carve out for themselves a career in the building industry is, indeed, a great compliment to the enterprise, not only of the direct works department, but of the city council as a whole.
  I hope that either the hon. Member for Withington or the Minister will comment on the points that I have made.
  8.33 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): It might help the House if I were to intervene at this stage in order to give the Government's view on the Bill.
  As the House has heard, the Bill is one of a number promoted by local authorities primarily to save what they consider to be essential local legislation which would otherwise lapse under section 262 of the Local Government Act 1972.
  There are only three clauses on which I should like to comment at this stage: clause 58, which provides for 72 hours' notice for street processions; clause 164, which seeks to extend Manchester city council's existing direct labour powers to enable the council to carry out construction works for other councils and public authorities throughout the Greater Manchester area; and clause 30, on bulls.
  Perhaps I might add to what was said earlier about there being two items that would make hon. Members see red; it is that red is something that bulls do not like to see. All I can say to assist the House—and the hon. Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Mr. Callaghan)—on this point is that my right hon. Friend takes the view that the pasturing of bulls in fields crossed by public paths should be regulated by general legislation rather than by byelaws, as is the case over almost all of England and Wales at present, or by local Acts. But his detailed views on the subject will be made known in his report to Parliament before the Bill is considered in Committee.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: Does the Minister agree that the existing powers in Greater Manchester are to restrict bulls from going into fields with footpaths, and that in an area such as Greater Manchester a very large number of those footpaths are used by young children, who are not able to distinguish between a bull and a cow or to distinguish between dairy and non-dairy herds? Does he agree that it would be disastrous to introduce the proposals in the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, which is now being considered in another place, into places where there is a meeting between rural and urban areas? Surely, if he knows anything about Greater Manchester, he is aware
  86
  that, particularly along the Mersey and on the north side, there are substantial amounts of green land which have to be fanned, and that to have bulls loose in such areas would be extremely dangerous for children under 10, many of whom use footpaths in those areas.
  Mr. Finsberg: The hon. Gentleman might try to tempt me to stray from the path. I hope that the bull recognises a cow or a heifer when the time comes. I cannot say more than that my right hon. Friend will be reporting to the Committee. All these matters will be for the Committee to decide, assuming the House gives the Bill a Second Reading.
  I have listened with considerable interest to the debate on clause 58. As all hon. Members have pointed out, the Government are currently conducting a review of the Public Order Act 1936 and related legislation, and that review is considerng the question whether there should be a national requirement to give advance notice of processions.
  The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) will understand the difficulty that I have in responding to his invitation to commit my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to a date for the announcement of the conclusions of the review. I understand that most of the comments on the Government's Green Paper arrived late and that some are still trickling in. The issues involved are complex, but my right hon. Friend is pressing ahead with the review as quickly as possible and will announce the outcome as soon as he can.
  The Green Paper, which was published by my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland in April last year, recognised the strength of the arguments in favour of a national provision of this sort. The police need time to make local arrangements for an event and, where necessary, to organise policing assistance from other forces. A notice requirement can serve as the formal trigger for discussions between the police and the organisers of a march so that disorder and disruption can be kept to a minimum.
  The Green Paper, which I am sure that all hon. Members have read, also recognised the difficulties which the organisers of a march might face in complying with such a requirement—for example, where there was a genuine reason to organise a march at short notice. However, the Green Paper suggested that it might be possible to find ways round such difficulties and that on balance the advantage might lie in favour of a national notice requirement.
  My right hon. Friends are now giving careful consideration to the comments they have received on the Green Paper and to the fifth report of the Home Affairs Committee on the law relating to public order, which, incidentally, as the House will recall, recommended in favour of a nancinal notice requirement. But the Government have not yet come to any firm conclusions on this or any of the other matters being considered in the course of the review. When he has come to his conclusions, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will make known the Government's views on the review as soon as is possible.
  In the meantime, the Government's position remains that it is for the promoters of local Bills seeking provisions requiring advance notice of processions to make out a case for such a requirement on the basis of local need or the

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  special conditions in the area. In the case of Greater Manchester it is clearly relevant that there are provisions of this sort in the existing local legislation which this Bill is intended to replace. In fact, they exist in 10 parts of the county, including Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale and Wigan. The chief constable considers that the existing provisions have proved useful in the past. Hon. Members who oppose the clause do not appear to have offered any evidence that these requirements, which have existed for very many years, have created any difficulties for either the police or the organisers of marches. It seems therefore that the problems they have identified are more imaginary than real.
  I note, as my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) said, that the form of the clause is modelled on the provision which the House agreed a year ago should be included in a similar Bill promoted by the West Midlands county council. Since then that model has been adopted in other local Bills. As far as I am aware, it has not hitherto been proved to cause difficulty. I hope that the House will share my view that, wherever the inclusion of advance notice requirements in local legislation is felt necessary, it is desirable that some measure of uniformity should be achieved. On that basis, I commend the form of this clause to the House.
  In view of the existing provisions in the Greater Manchester area and the problems which processions in the area can cause for police and residents, it does not seem unreasonable that the promoters of this Bill should seek to retain an advance notice requirement in the Bill and that they should wish to make the requirement a uniform one throughout the area.
  In relation to the question whether there should be a national requirement of advance notice, clearly there are wider factors to be taken into account and I must not prejudge the outcome of my right hon. Friends' review. But on the strict basis of the needs of Greater Manchester, I suggest to the House that the case for the inclusion of clause 58 has certainly been made out.
  Let me turn now to the other main provision that has provoked controversy, that covering direct labour provisions. We believe that clause 164 is unnecessary and undesirable for three main reasons. First, direct labour organisations exist to serve the needs of their own authorities. They have no role in major works outside their direct responsibilities; and the powers now proposed are irrelevant to the city council's statutory functions, the House recognised that when it passed the Local Government, Planning and Land Act.
  Secondly, ratepayers' and taxpayers' money should not be risked in commercial ventures where there is already a fully developed private sector quite capable of fulfilling the needs of any public authorities in the county for building services. Thirdly, as a matter of principle, we feel that public enterprise should not be expanded at the expense of the private sector.
  The promoters claim that in order to make the best use of resources a wider base of activities is necessary. Without this it is claimed that the work force will have to be reduced and that the apprentice training scheme will suffer as a result. These are not accepted as good reasons for the powers proposed.
  Mr. Charles R. Morris: I can understand the motivation behind the Minister's comments, but does he realise that there is very little apprentice training in the private sector of the building industry in the Greater Manchester area? His comment, if given effect, will mean unemployment for the 4,400 workers of the direct works department in Manchester and the loss of some crucially important apprentice jobs in the city.
  Mr. Finsberg: If Manchester expands its activities and wins contracts from private builders by any methods it cares to choose, the workers in those concerns will be put out of their jobs. In our judgment, there is no reason why the Manchester direct labour organisation should be artificially protected from the effects of any decline in building construction work. There is no good reason to suppose that if training by direct labour organisations declines there would be an overall decline in the amount of training undertaken. I think that secretly the right hon. Gentleman knows that.
  The Government's legislation on direct labour organisations contained in part III of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 is aimed at controlling the activities of direct labour organisations, enforcing adequate accounting standards and requiring direct labour organisations to be exposed to fair competition. This will ensure that the performance of direct labour organisations is measured against an appropriate objective standard—the rate of return on capital employed—and will give the Secretary of State the power to close down consistently unsuccessful organisations. No one with a scrap of impartiality could object to that concept. We do not wish to see Manchester's direct labour organisation roaming round the rest of the county looking for work.
  My right hon. Friend will set out his views on this matter, and others, in his report to Parliament. They may then be considered in detail in Committee. I recommend that the Bill be given its Second Reading to enable that to be done.
  8.45 pm
  Mr. Ken Eastham: This is a long Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Mr. Callaghan) said, it took many hours of expertise and deliberation by the various authorities to formulate it.
  I shall address my remarks to some of the comments that have been made on clause 164. The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Montgomery) said that Labour Members saw red whenever mention was made of direct works. That is true. Labour Members with considerable experience become indignant when they hear organisations being maligned in this Chamber, as they have been on many occasions. The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale added insult to injury when he sneered at Manchester's so-called financial tangle. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the financial tangle is quickly being resolved, despite the problems that the Government have caused. The country has been starved of financial aid by this Whiz kid from the Department of the Environment who has introduced a recipe for disaster for local government.
  As we saw a few weeks ago, Ministers come and go. However, despite ineptitude and bad management from above, local government will survive, will give a good

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  account of itself and will benefit ratepayers. I was extremely disappointed to see that the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) and the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale had tabled a motion for an instruction. It is an outrage that they should do so.
  Mr. Montgomery: Why?
  Mr. Eastham: The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale is not a Mancunian, but we Mancunians do not believe that the clause is in the interest of ratepayers. The Greater Manchester ratepayers and those of the 10 districts can benefit. In many ways they have indicated that they want the services of the city's direct labour organisation. It is obvious that no shame will be expressed, even though there is very little basis for some of the attacks that seem to be mounted against the Manchester organisation.
  Conservatives throughout the country like to talk about competition. They pride themselves on saying "Let us have competition. It is good for business. Competitive pricing is of benefit to everyone." The building industry is potholed with problems of bad management, incompetence and all the other recipes that leave monumental disasters for local authorities to pick up when private builders disappear.
  Clause 164 does not request privilege for direct labour organisations; it requests only the right to compete. But now Conservative Members seem to express a constant fear of competition. A great deal of time has been spent on this clause. It has already gone through a detailed investigation in the House of Lords. Many hours of evidence have been submitted by experts. It is noticeable that at the end of the deliberations in the other place there was a recommendation to this House that, in the interests of good local government, the clause ought to be approved and that no stopping motion should be introduced.
  Obviously the interests of private builders are involved. One has only to look at the names of some of the petitioners—the National Federation of Building Trades Employers, the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors and so on. Can Conservative Members demonstrate to Opposition Members when such bodies have been concerned about the ratepayers' interests? They have submitted their petition in the interests not of the citizens, but of their own financial gains.
  The serious situation in the building trade is the direct result of the Conservative Government's policies. My God, they are in a mess. One can understand the desperation being felt by the private sector. Obviously it wants to move into local government contract work because of the disastrous situation now facing it as a direct result of the Government's policies, particularly from the Department of the Environment.
  It might be useful to illustrate the disastrous situation in the building industry. About 38,605 people are registered as unemployed in the North-West region alone. That represents 24 per cent. of the work force. The national figure is 294,538, or 20.1 per cent. That gives some idea of the desperate plight in which builders find themselves as a result not of our policies but of yours. Yet these days they approach Labour Members daily and talk about massive liquidations and bankruptcies. They appeal to us in relation to the mess into which they have been placed by your side. They then turn to your side and say "We are in a desperate situation. At least hold the fort by denying direct labour organisations their rightful place in the competitive world of building."
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not involve me in this debate.
  Mr. Eastham: Much propaganda and expense have been used to smear direct labour organisations. Very often, we have taken the trouble to read the most jaundiced kind of despicable documents that one could ever see. Many thousands of pounds have been expended on drawing up a smokescreen to try to convince people that they are not getting benefits. Have hon. Members ever known of private organisations spending thousands of pounds on a propaganda campaign just because of ratepayers' interests? Let us be honest and frank. The only reason why they spend this money is that it is in their own interests to do so. That has been the situation constantly when these spurious attacks have been made, often completely without foundation, against local government.
  Recently I was in a position, fortunately, to look at some examples of the final accounts of the Manchester direct works organisation. I have with me a document that was presented to the city council. It is a current document, dated 17 December 1980, illustrating 14 major capital projects which the direct works organisation had completed. These were finally costed, and the figures were agreed with the city architect and the city treasurer. Of the 14 projects three were overspent and 11 were underspent. As against the original estimate, there was a beneficial balance of £1,161,355. There is another column that indicates the additional savings made as against the next lowest tender if a private contractor had been awarded the contract. That shows £398,327. In all, there is an indication of a direct saving and benefit to the ratepayers of £1,559,682.
  We constantly have to listen to claptrap from Conservative Members about the failures of direct works organisations. It is untrue. The facts have been verified, not by politicians, but by highly paid, professional, honourable officers, engaged for their expertise and answerable to district auditors. That is one example. I am sure that if my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Litherlanc0 catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he will be delighted to reinforce my argument with further examples of the direct results and benefits that we have achieved in the city of Manchester.
  In the past, we have been able to offer numerous services in the Greater Manchester area, often to authorities that are not Labour-controlled. Conservative-controlled authorities have invited Manchester's direct works organisation to come to their areas to assist them with their building problems. That is the situation today. Numerous Conservative authorities are using those benefits.
  Mr. Montgomery: Which authorities?
  Mr. Eastham: I understand that the Greater Manchester authority is Conservative-controlled.
  Mr. Tom McNally: Not for long.
  Mr. Eastham: It will not be for long, as my hon. Friend says. When Tameside was Conservative-controlled, it used the services of the direct works organisation. Two other Conservative-controlled authorities, which I shall not name, invited the direct works organisation to come in and assist them. At present we are providing considerable maintenance and office

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  building work. We are also involved in considerable work for the police. I am beginning to understand that the police prefer to have an efficient organisation to come in and assist them.
  With regard to the Bill, we are simply appealing to the House that Manchester should be able to offer these services to the water authority, the police authority and the Greater Manchester passenger transport executive. I remind the House that before reorganisation in 1974 we were carrying out some of the very services that we seek to have included in the Bill. We built the police stations. We carried out a great deal of work on the airport and on many other projects, to the highest standards and the greatest satisfaction.
  This is a blatant political attempt to kill off competition. If the organisation is inefficient, the Minister has the power to close it down. There is no requirement for him to appeal to anyone. If the organisation is inefficient, he makes the decision and he can take action. Today the Minister tells us that the organisation will be denied even the opportunity to continue its work. If it were inefficient, he could close it down. We believe that Manchester's direct works organisation is second to none in the country. We merely make the plea for the opportunity to continue to offer benefit to the ratepayers. Let it be remembered that ratepayers want the best of services and the best of standards at the lowest possible price.

  Greater Manchester Bill [Lords]
  9.4 pm
  Mr. Tom Arnold: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) on the way in which he introduced the Second Reading of the Bill and the comprehensive guide that he gave to its large number of clauses. The Bill seeks to secure for the Greater Manchester council a degree of uniformity over the whole area of the county as a result of the changes that initially took place in the local government legislation of 1972.
  It was interesting that exchanges took place between my hon. Friends the Members for Knutsford (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) and for Withington, and subsequently Opposition Members, on the vexed question of bulls and public paths. I was also interested to hear what the Minister had to say. The debate is a forerunner of the debate on the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, which will in some respects prove a great deal more controversial than the Government appreciate. Like other hon. Members, I have received a great many representations on the issue. It is causing a great deal of local concern.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Montgomery) dealt most ably with the difficult question covered in clause 164 concerning the activities of the direct works department in Manchester. The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Eastham) said that my hon. Friend was not a Mancunian. However, I remember that when I lived in Manchester in the old constituency of Cheetham, the activities of the direct works department in Bessemer Street were something of a scandal in the city. The hon. Gentleman talked of efficiency, but in those days the department did not tender for competition at all. If we have grave doubts about what the hon. Member is proposing, let me state that it has something to do with the fact that at that time the activities of the department, when not shrouded in obscurity, were surrounded by a great deal of controversy. It was difficult to find out exactly what was happening. One argument that the promoters adduce in favour of the clause is that the direct works department has been reformed and that the move to allow it to compete for work elsewhere in the country will add to competition. That is doubtful.
  Let us consider the housing situation in those parts of Stockport which fall under the Manchester overspill and are the responsibility of the city housing department. A great many houses there are urgently in need of repair. When one considers the work that the department could usefully be undertaking in that respect, it is clear that there is some way to go before the case is fully established that it should carry out work that at present it does not even compete for.
  Mr. Eastham: Does the hon Gentleman know whether the money was available for the direct works department to do the maintenance work? Charges are often made against the department, but when they are checked in detail it is found that the finance is not available for the work. Otherwise, I am sure that the department would be delighted readily to recruit the necessary staff to do the work.
  Mr. Arnold: That is a matter for the city of Manchester. My point is that the controversy about the direct works department has lasted for many years. The case is not proven for allowing it to extend its activities.

  93
  I wish to concentrate on the other controversial clause, that which deals with processions. The House has moved a long way from the debates that took place in early 1979 in the closing stages of the previous Parliament. The hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) contributed to the debates on both the West Midlands County Council Act and the County of Merseyside Act. I should have thought that he would be the first to recognise that the promoters of those local Acts recognised that changes were needed. It should be pointed out that, whereas the original proposal was for seven days' notice, we are now facing a request for three days' notice, which is a considerable reduction in time.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: Does the hon. Gentleman also recall that during the same period there were discussions with south and west Yorkshire and Tyne and Wear, and they have all agreed to take the clause out? There was originally a common clause, which was to be seven days. Some local authorities have now agreed to take the clause out entirely on the basis that it is totally unnecessary or that they prefer national legislation. Only a few have insisted on trying to force through some provision, which is a poor compromise and does not satisfy either side in the argument.
  Mr. Arnold: There is the nub of the argument: is there, or is there not, a need in the circumstances of Greater Manchester? The burden of my case is that there is. I remind the hon. Gentleman that in the debates of 1979 the burden of the argument was that in the specific circumstances of Merseyside and the West Midlands the power was needed. I shall refer to the national case later and deal in more detail with the points that the hon. Gentleman has made.
  A fair measure of compromise has been achieved. The present proposals involve reducing the period of notice from seven days to 72 hours—this is very important when dealing with the earlier arguments of the hon. Member for Stockport, North about coping with spontaneous processions and demonstrations and dealing with counter-demonstrations and processions—or, when 72 hours' notice cannot be given, giving notice
  "as soon as reasonably practicable"
  before a march commences. That is a considerable move from the position originally adopted in 1979 when the first of these Bills came before the House.
  Notice is to be given to the chief constable and at any police station in the district affected. The exemption is for processions "commonly or customarily held", such as bona fide funeral processions. Finally, there is a requirement on the chief constable to
  "issue a code of practice giving guidance to the organisers of processions"
  on matters with which they will have to deal, such as the need to make arrangements with the police. There is a further requirement that a prosecution can be initiated only on the advice of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
  Clause 176 contains a requirement that there be a defence of diligence whereby anyone who can show that he had acted diligently and responsibly will have a defence in law against a complaint or claim brought against him. The proposed powers are now set out in a modified and extremely reasonable way.
  However, the central question remains: is there a need, in the circumstances of Greater Manchester, for this additional power to be conferred upon the police? I
  94
  understand that the chief constable takes the view that there is an omission from the Public Order Act 1936 with regard to the giving of notice of processions and demonstrations and it is to fill that gap that he believes that this power is necessary. In the 1979 debates we find that the Home Secretary in the Labour Government was clearly of the view that there had been incidents involving public order the requirement to give notice would have been extremely helpful. He referred to the deplorable incidents in Birmingham, Ladywood, when 97 policemen were injured, and to the National Front march at Levenshulme, which was referred to earlier.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Withington, in reply to a great barrage of questions from the Labour Benches, was asked to name dates, places and incidents. He gave details of instances in recent years in Greater Manchester when notice was not required. He was right to do that and laid to rest the somewhat noisy interjections that were made. There have been a number of cases involving large numbers of demonstrators where notice was given and where, in the opinion of the chief constable, had notice not been given, the situation for the police would have been very serious. In the letter which the chief constable sent to the secretary of the Greater Manchester Council and which was subsequently circulated to all Members, he wrote:
  "I can only stress that had any of the above similar events taken place without prior police involvement the consequences in terms of public order would have been extremely damaging to both members of the public and to property".
  That is a powerful argument, one that we should not ignore.
  I deal finally with the point made a number of times by the hon. Member for Stockport, North. I think that the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham), who is not now present, also murmured about it earlier. It is that, even if there is a proven need for this kind of legislation, it should surely be introduced nationally. I am not convinced of that. In large conurbations such as Manchester, the West Midlands and Merseyside there are particular circumstances that require that such legislation be held closely under local control. One of the great virtues of the way in which we organise our policing is that we have, not a national police force, but local police forces, and have legislation backing these arrangements up. It is best left to the discretion of chief constables and police authorities to decide how to deploy their forces and how to deal with difficult and potentially dangerous situations.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that it is helpful to have the power in Greater Manchester, why does he not think it necessary to have the same power in London, in South or West Yorkshire, or on Tyne and Wear?
  Mr. Arnold: I should like again to take the hon. Gentleman back to the debate in 1979, in which he took part. The then Home Secretary said that, as the person responsible for the police in the Metropolis, he had examined the whole question very carefully and had come to the view that the provision was not necessary in London. However, he did not go on to say that it was therefore not necessary elsewhere. He said that he was content in the first instance to leave it to the discretion of chief constables in other cities to look at the precise

  95
  circumstances that they had to deal with, and to deal with them accordingly. I believe that that was a very sensible position to take.
  In contrast to what the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury suggested earlier, the then Home Secretary did not think that there was a case for amending the Public Order Act 1936. The right hon. Gentleman took the view that, if local authorities believed that such a power was needed, it was presumably on the basis of a careful examination of local circumstances, and that to the extent that our parliamentary arrangements had always recognised the validity of local Bills, so be it.
  I believe that in the circumstances of Greater Manchester, circumstances of very difficult policing operations in recent years—and there is no reason to suppose that there will not be other demonstrations and incidents that will stretch the resources and capability of the police force to its limits—the power is needed and will be a healthy one to have on the statute book. I welcome the inclusion of the power. I hope that, to the extent that it has been modified from the original proposals that the House debated on other Bills in 1979, we recognise that it is a fair compromise.
  One of the matters that have come out in tonight's debate is the extraordinary range of interests involved in such legislation. It demonstrates the tremendous variety of activity and of places that the country of Greater Manchester embraces. I wish the Bill well. I am sure that it will meet the needs of many people.
  9.19 pm
  Mr. Robert Litherland: My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Eastham) has covered many of the points that I wished to make. I give him my support. As ex-members of Manchester city council, we are both extremely proud of our direct labour department and its continued success. We think that the measure is another attack by the private sector, through the Tory Party, on direct labour organisations.
  The case of the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Montgomery) was very narrow and biased. There seemed to be some confusion in the mind of the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Arnold), who found it hard to distinguish between maintenance and capital works.
  There have always been arguments about direct labour departments. They have always been a thorn in the side of the private sector, which feels that the sooner we put an end to direct labour organisations the better. This has already happened over maintenance. Any work worth over £50,000 has to be tendered for. These are the more lucrative parts of maintenance work—the painting of estates, the rewiring and the reroofing—which have been pushed to the private sector. It is obvious that the mentors of Conservative Members who have made the proposition today are the National Federation of Building Trades Employers. We are accustomed to such attacks.
  We are not arguing that every direct labour organisation should have the powers to carry out construction for other authorities. We argue that Manchester's direct labour organisation is unique. It is a large and successful department. It is the largest comprehensive public works department in the country. This is my reason for saying
  96
  that the hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale does not have a clue about direct labour organisations and knows nothing about Manchester's direct labour organisation.
  Mr. Montgomery: In the middle of this hymn of praise to Manchester's direct labour organisation, would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on the report of the district auditor in August 1976?
  Mr. Litherland: Once again, that shows the ignorance of the hon. Gentleman. That report dealt with maintenance and had nothing to do with capital works. The chief constable's report, which amounted to only four pages, showed that Manchester had nothing to answer for. It was vindicated. This shows the hon. Gentleman's confusion over direct labour organisations.
  Manchester's direct labour organisation has built over 18,000 houses, schools, using traditional and other systems of building techniques, libraries, fire and police stations, and also sheltered accommodation, built by apprentices under the supervision of training staff. We have also built a large educational and recreational project. We are not amateurs in the game. We are in the big league.
  Mr. Eastham: Will my hon. Friend illustrate to Government Members some of the catastrophes experienced by the private sector and the number of firms that went bankrupt, leaving our direct works organisation to pick up the pieces to try to complete construction jobs following those disastrous efforts?
  Mr. Litherland: As my hon. Friend says, there were numerous occasions when a private firm went into the tendering process, put in a low tender, could not meet the commitment and went bankrupt. Direct works had to step in.
  Direct works also operates in emergencies. Following the IRA bombing of the Manchester courts, we had the courts open by the weekend. This service element is neglected in our debates.
  Manchester is a regional centre in close proximity to other metropolitan districts. Manchester has the expertise needed by neighbouring authorities. When one sees the system building, the catastrophes of tower blocks and deck access building, one recognises why Manchester direct works department is needed to build traditional type housing. Why should Manchester not be invited to tender if a local authority should so determine? I do not accept the argument that the Government should decide. It should be the prerogative of an authority to invite Manchester's direct labour organisation to compete with the private sector in the tendering process. That is all that is being requested. We are discussing the right of an authority to invite in the Manchester direct labour organisation and to ask it to tender if it so desires.
  I am sure that the Manchester organisation will be invited in if the need exists. It appears from the letters that have been sent from major authorities that there is a need. The neighbouring authorities already recognise the enormous benefits to be derived from Manchester's direct works organisation and they like it to be in at the tendering stage. If a direct labour organisation with the expertise possessed by the Manchester organisation submits a price, the other authority knows that it is being given a realistic and responsible price for the job. The possibility of price fixing and monopolies and cartels is eliminated.
  Manchester can undertake capital works and provide back-up services of an extremely high standard. The need

  97
  and the demand already exist. Neighbouring authorities already enjoy the maintenance services provided by Manchester. For example, in Salford a private contractor was maintaining lifts. They were in such a dangerous condition that it was decided to bring electrical apparatus into the chamber of the city council to prove the point. From that day onwards, the Manchester direct labour organisation has had the contract for lift maintenance in Salford.
  Mr. Charles R. MorrisBefore my hon. Friend moves away from the important issue of contracts and tenders, will he inform the House of his experience with the cement ring in Manchester and the paint contract allegations in Manchester?
  Mr. Litherland: It must be emphasised that the direct labour organisation does away with price fixing. We have had price fixing and allegations of price fixing in Manchester. It was Manchester that exposed massive price fixing rings for ready-mix concrete. A, smashed the price rings across the board. Clearly the ratepayers suffered. They were paying for the extra concrete that was being allocated to different jobs. It was only the direct works organisation that could take up the cudgels through the AMA to expose the price rings.
  Recently there have been allegations of paint price fixing. The House is well aware of those shenanigans. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley said, the demand comes from authorities of varying political complexions, including Rochdale, Salford, Tameside and Trafford, which use the specialist services of lift maintenance and heating services.
  The Greater Manchester police requested the Manchester direct works department to install and maintain alarm systems. There is demand for the services provided by the direct works department. The amendment would do a great disservice to the local authorities and public bodies in the area.
  It is left to the discretion of a local authority to decide whether it should invite Manchester's direct labour organisation to submit a tender. That is a matter entirely for the authority concerned and it should be left to it. There is a demand for new construction and Manchester can supply that service. The Local Government, Planning and Land Act envisaged direct labour organisations carrying out maintenance and construction work for other authorities. We are talking only of Manchester.
  The Bill direct labour organisations to produce detailed accounts of rates of return on capital employed. The Act emphasised that the Government wanted direct labour organisations to be competitive. It included a so-called safeguard giving the Secretary of State for the Environment power to deal with an individual local authority direct labour organisation if he decided that it was not operating in a satisfactory manner.
  Manchester is in a unique position to offer its services. Its direct labour organisation has a turnover of about £52 million. It employs 4,400 operatives, 440 of whom are apprentices. It has a decasualised labour force. It has a first class record in safety, health and welfare. The spin-offs from a successful direct labour organisation are tremendous. Manchester offers local employment. It has an excellent record in training apprentices. Of the 800 apprentices at Manchester college of building, 300 come from Manchester's direct works department. Apprentices
  98
  are sent to neighbouring colleges of building which, without the intake from Manchester, would have to close courses. Lecturers would also become redundant. The fact that Manchester sends its apprentices to neighbouring authorities keeps open courses in those areas.
  The training benefits are good for the construction industry, especially the private sector. On completion of full training in one of many crafts, apprentices can work in the private sector. One of my fears as chairman of direct works was that Manchester would become merely a training ground for the private sector. We not only offered an apprentice a job, but we offered him a career structure built into the direct works department.
  We must ask ourselves why the private sector has a great fear of competition from the Manchester direct works organisation. It is already confined within its own boundaries. Local government reorganisation meant the loss of a great deal of construction work for Manchester. It lost its right to build police and fire stations. The contract for one police station which had already been won by competitive tendering had to be abandoned because reorganisation made it ultra vires to build for other county authorities. It is nonsensical that the Manchester direct works organisation cannot build schools for its own children within its own boundaries. That piece of reorganisation was nonsensical.
  We all talk about competition. However, Manchester is a successful direct works department, confined within its boundaries and working under local authority rules, disciplines and committee procedures while the private sector can tender the length and breadth of the country—and can tender even within Manchester itself. What is the objection to one direct works department having limited powers to tender for another local authority? Does it make sense that the private construction industry is incapable of competing with one direct works department? During the Committee stage of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment said that the Government did not want to bash direct works organisations, but only to make them more competitive. The Government should stand by their word and allow the Manchester direct works organisation to compete with the private sector if invited to do so by a neighbouring authority.
  Letters have been received from leaders of authorities in Greater Manchester expressing their opinion that it would be desirable for Manchester city council to have those powers. Maintenance is already undertaken, so why not new construction work? It will reflect badly on the Government and on the private sector if, after insisting that competition is a stimulus, they are afraid to allow a single direct labour organisation to compete. Surely the Government are not so small minded as to wish to exclude direct labour altogether, There is no justification for that unless the private sector is obsessed with the determination to rid itself of any competition, however small, from a direct labour organisation.
  The hon. Member for Altrincham and Sale said that success should be proven. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley told of the success over the last four years when the organisation showed a profit of £1,161,000 in addition to the national saving involved in the next lowest tender for a project of almost £400,000. The figures come not from the direct works department but from the city

  99
  architect's final valuation and the city treasurer's costs. Manchester is successful, and we want to know why we cannot compete favourably with the private sector.
  In the halcyon years the private sector abandoned Manchester. It did not want to build housing because of more lucrative projects elsewhere. However, the private sector has built some of the most diabolical deck access building in Hulme, Moss Side and Turkey Lane under negotiated tender. Some of the houses, although only eight years old, are now ready for demolition. That is why we have maintenance problems.
  Some of the best property built by direct labour subsidises the rubbish built by the private sector. We say that the capital works programme is a success. It is a service that can be offered.
  Manchester needs a rolling programme for apprenticeship training because of the Government's cuts in housing and the moratorium on building and modernisation. The neighbouring local authorities have a democratic right to invite Manchester to do work for them if their elected members take that decision. After the massive shift of responsibility, financial and otherwise, from local to central government inflicted by the Local Government, Planning and Land Act, that is a small concession. The need, the demand and expertise are there; the power should be there.
  When the Tories took control of Manchester they held a two-year investigation in depth and came to the conclusion that the direct works department was beneficial to Manchester ratepayers. If that is so, it can be beneficial to neighbouring authorities. The National Federation of Building Trades Employers has an unfounded fear. We know that we shall always have to fight the battle, and we shall continue to fight it.
  9.39 pm
  Sir Charles Fletcher-Cooke: I have been dragged here tonight by my old and hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester), who quite properly pointed out that about 17,000 of my constituents live within the Greater Manchester area. I doubt whether any of them regard themselves as Mancunians, but they are considerably affected by this blockbuster of a Bill, as it was rightly described by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Morris).
  I do not regret the three hours of education that I have had tonight, because it has opened my eyes to a remarkable development which those who follow local government more closely than I do take for granted. A great deal of this large volume deals with local conditions in a local way. The two controversial matters might be included in that. Certainly, the question of taxis at Ringway is a matter that should be dealt with by a local Bill.
  There are large slabs of this proposed legislation which can in no circumstances be regarded as being peculiar to Manchester. Clause 33, to which reference has already been made, deals with acupuncturists, tattooists, ear-piercers and electrologists. There is a whole code regulating such activities and such persons. What is there special to the Mancunian acupuncturist that does not equally apply to those who come from the Tyne and the Wear, or from the Tamar, the Adur or any other part of the country? If it is necessary that such persons should be
  100
  registered and regulated, why is it to be done only on a local basis? Their activities are national; they are not local. They ply their trades or professions in a particular locality, but there is nothing about them that requires or demands that they should receive anything but national treatment.
  The same argument applies to clause 56, which relates to dealers in second-hand goods. There is traditionally a great suspicion of the dealer in second-hand goods that he is also a receiver of stolen goods. Everybody knows the dangers there. But they are not peculiar to Manchester. No one suggests that second-hand dealers in Manchester are any more or less dishonest than those in Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield or anywhere else. The danger of dealing locally with what are purely national problems is that one drives the dishonest second-hand dealer, the dangerous acupuncturist, or whoever it may be, to the perimeter of the locality concerned.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: To Darwen.
  Sir Charles Fletcher-Cooke: Precisely. There will be a flood of such persons to the simpler and less suspicious parts of the country on the perimeter of Manchester, where they will not be required to register because the question has not been dealt with on a national basis.
  I should like to know why, when a matter is purely national and when there is nothing local about it, the practice should grow up of piecemeal legislation on something that is very controversial. I am not at all sure that the registration and structuring of these minor professions and trades are always right. Doing so produces a sort of ring, a closed shop, into which other people are not allowed, not because they are necessarily undesirable, but because they are competitive. The balance of interests is a difficult one to decide.
  For years hairdressers—I think that there is something about them in the Bill as well—have tried to get a national standard, a national organisation and a national system, into which nobody is allowed without having acquired certain qualifications. The proposal is always resisted. To find it coming in, as it were, locally by the back door is a wrong use of local government legislation, because it is not a local problem.
  When the Bill deals with what are truly and properly local problems, it is an admirable measure. I support 100 per cent. the stance taken by my hon. Friend the Minister on both the controversial matters.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) on the subject of bulls. The question of bulls in the suburban and surrounding areas of Greater Manchester raises different considerations from that of bulls in the deep countryside. I am open to persuasion on that, but he made what seemed to be a very good point. It is therefore right for it to be dealt with in a local Bill, at least to begin with.
  Other than that, I regard the Bill as excellent. I hope that the little seeds that I am planting will eventually bear fruit when I say that matters that are not of a local nature, but which are necessary to be dealt with, should be dealt with on a national basis. They should not be made into a patchwork that provides asylums for the wicked acupuncturists or second-hand dealers around the areas in which they are simon pure.
  9.47 pm
  Mr. Tom McNally: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Sir C. Fletcher-Cooke), with his formidable legal logic, put his finger on what many of us have objected to in clause 58. If ever a patchwork was being established in the law, and if ever there was a need for a national debate on a matter, it is on the question of processions and marches. The hon. and learned Gentleman objected to piecemeal legislation on acpuncturist. It is even more important to state that the House objects to piecemeal legislation on a liberty so fundamental as that of marching, demonstrating and protesting.
  The issue has been at the heart of much of our doubt about clause 58. The problems the clause seeks to deal with are not peculiar to Greater Manchester. Furthermore, they are not new problems. One of the worrying aspects of the statement by the promoters of the Bill was that it was needed because greater emphasis had been put on demonstrations and marches in recent years. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many democracies emerge with a peculiar element as part of their history. It is important for the legislators to guard them. The American town meeting is one that survives into a modem super State. The march has an honourable and radical tradition in the British system.
  As long ago as 1798, the Stockport weavers set out to march to Macclesfield to try to radicalise the weavers of that town. They were stopped on the way by the police, and one might wonder whether Macclesfield would be more radically represented today had only those Stockport weavers got through.
  As the hon. and learned Member so rightly said, this is a national issue that is being worked out in a piecemeal and patchwork fashion. It is right for hon. Members who represent the various parts of the country where this piecemeal approach has been implemented to express their doubt about it.
  In Greater Manchester we have a double reason for doubt. The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester) gave us statistics. The need for this legislation has apparently arisen as a result of four problems during the past five years, three of which were instigated by the National Front. The people of Manchester would have greater confidence about how the powers are to be used if the police authorities had not used such an obscene show of police power some four years ago in order to protect the inalienable right of one fat little Fascist to march through parts of Greater Manchester. That single act caused a great deal of doubt in the Greater Manchester area about the judgment of the police authorities.
  In addition, people would have more confidence about how the police authorities intend to use these powers if the chief constable did not indulge so frequently in a predilection to back shyly into the limelight and to hold forth on matters of political, but not necessarily of police, interest.
  Mr. Arnold: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Greater Manchester police take sides in these matters?
  Mr. McNally: I am suggesting that the chief constable's increasingly bizarre interventions into the political arena could make a great number of groups question how he will exercise the powers contained in this clause. I would say that the chief constable should pay
  102
  great consideration to references to the race relations industry and to unspecified political pressures being put upon him and the considerable doubts that exist within the Manchester trade union movement about how he handles his office. He holds an important office. The House is considering extending these powers and it is important that he should exercise them with the maximum concern and that he should not stray too far into the political arena.
  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: I spy strangers. I beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.
  Notice being taken that strangers were present, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 115 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw:
  The House divided: Ayes 28, Noes 114.

  Division No. 43]

  [9.55 pm

  AYES

  Allaun, Frank

  Litherland, Robert

  Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Cook, Robin F.

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Cowans, Harry

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Cryer, Bob

  Maxton, John

  Davidson, Arthur

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd)

  Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

  Dormand, Jack

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Eastham, Ken

  Tinn, James

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Welsh, Michael

  Ford, Ben

  White, Frank R.

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

  Hardy, Peter

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Haynes, Frank

  Mr. Tom McNally and

  Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire)

  Mr. Andrew F. Bennett.

  NOES

  Alexander, Richard

  Gummer, John Selwyn

  Arnold, Tom

  Hamilton, Hon A.

  Atkins, Robert (Preston N)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Banks, Robert

  Hawksley, Warren

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  Hill, James

  Beith, A. J.

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Hurd, Hon Douglas

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Blackburn, John

  King, Rt Hon Tom

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

  Lang, Ian

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Bright, Graham

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Brinton, Tim

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Bruce-Gardyne, John

  MacKay, John (Argyll)

  Bulmer, Esmond

  McQuarrie, Albert

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Madel, David

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

  Major, John

  Chapman, Sydney

  Marlow, Tony

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Mather, Carol

  Clegg, Sir Walter

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Colvin, Michael

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Dover, Denshore

  Miller, Hal (B'grove)

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  Mills, Peter (West Devon)

  Faith, Mrs Sheila

  Moate, Roger

  Fenner, Mrs Peggy

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Murphy, Christopher

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Myles, David

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Needham, Richard

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Neubert, Michael

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Newton, Tony

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Normanton, Tom

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Gorst, John

  Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby)

  Grenway, Harry

  Penhaligon, David

  Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

  Peyton, Rt Hon John

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  Pollock, Alexander

  103

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Thompson, Donald

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Rossi, Hugh

  Viggers, Peter

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  Waddington, David

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Waller, Gray

  Shersby, Michael

  Watson, John

  Silvester, Fred

  Wells, Bowen

  Sims, Roger

  Wheeler, John

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Wickenden, Keith

  Speller, Tony

  Wolfson, Mark

  Sproat, Ian

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Stainton, Keith

  Stevens, Martin

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

  Mr. John Cope and

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Mr. John Wakeman.

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Mr. Silvester rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question put, That the Question be now put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 118, Noes 34.

  Division No. 44]

  [10.05 pm

  Alexander, Richard

  King, Rt Hon Tom

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Banks, Robert

  Lang, Ian

  Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

  LeMarchant, Spencer

  Beith, A. J.

  Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Blackburn, John

  MacKay, John (Argyll)

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  McQuarrie, Albert

  Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

  Madel, David

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Major, John

  Bright, Graham

  Marlow, Tony

  Brinton, Tim

  Mates, Michael

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Mather, Carol

  Bruce-Gardyne, John

  Mawby, Ray

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Chapman, Sydney

  Miller, Hal (B'grove)

  Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

  Moate, Roger

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Clegg, Sir Walter

  Murphy, Christopher

  Colvin, Michael

  Myles, David

  Cope, John

  Needham, Richard

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Neubert, Michael

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Newton, Tony

  Dover, Denshore

  Normanton, Tom

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  Page, John (Harrow, West)

  Faith, Mrs Sheila

  Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby)

  Fenner, Mrs Peggy

  Penhaligon, David

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Peyton, Rt Hon John

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Pollock, Alexander

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Rhodes James, Robert

  Garel-Jones, Tristan

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

  Gorst, John

  Rossi, Hugh

  Gow, Ian

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  Greenway, Harry

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  Shersby, Michael

  Grylls, Michael

  Silvester, Fred

  Gummer, John Selwyn

  Sims, Roger

  Hamilton, Hon A.

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Speller, Tony

  Hawkins, Paul

  Sproat, Ian

  Hawksley, Warren

  Stainton, Keith

  Hill, James

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Stevens, Martin

  Hurd, Hon Douglas

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  104

  Thompson, Donald

  Wells, Bowen

  Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

  Wheeler, John

  Townend, John (Bridlington)

  Wichenden, Keith

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Wolfson, Mark

  Waddington, David

  Young, Sir George (Acton)

  Wakeham, John

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Waller, Gary

  Mr. Tom Arnold and

  Watson, John

  Mr. Robert Atkins

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Allaun, Frank

  McNally, Thomas

  Bennett, Andrew (St'kp'tN)

  Maxton, John

  Cook, Robin F.

  Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

  Cowans, Harry

  Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

  Cryer, Bob

  Morton, George

  Davidson, Arthur

  Roper, John

  Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd)

  Soley, Clive

  Dewar, Donald

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Dormand, Jack

  Tinn, James

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Welsh, Michael

  Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

  White, Frank R.

  Haynes, Frank

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Home Robertson, John

  Litherland, Robert

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

  Mr. Ken Eastham and

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Mr. Jim Callaghan.

  Bill read a Second time, and committed.

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Question, That the Bill be now read a Second time, put accordingly and agreed to.
  Mr. Montgomery: I beg to move,
  That it be an instuction to the Committee on the Bill to leave out clause 164.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Objection taken.

  Local Authority Grants (Scotland)
  10.14 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): I beg to move,
  That the Local Authority Grants (Termination) (Scotland) Order 1980, a copy of which was laid before this House on 11 December, be approved.
  The arrangements for provision of Government grant towards revenue and capital expenditure incurred by local authorities are unavoidably complex. It is highly desirable that they should be kept under review. Improvements, and especially simplification, should be effected at any reasonable opportunity. That is the background to this order which proposes, with the full agreement of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, some simplification in the present arrangements. It originates in a review initiated by the previous Administration in 1977.
  I should explain that the aggregate amount of support for revenue expenditure by local authorities is determined each year at the time of the rate support grant settlement. The Secretary of State determines an estimate of relevant expenditure to be incurred by authorities in the grant year and applies to that figure the percentage which the Government are prepared to meet. The result represents aggregate grant which is paid in part—some 8 per cent. at present—by way of specific grants, the balance representing rate support grant paid in aid of local

  105
  authority revenues and not hypothecated to individual services. The more that is paid by way of specific grants the less is available for rate support grant and vice versa. The balance between the two components does not affect the total.
  Especially since local authority reorganisation, it has been common ground that specific grants should be restricted so far as reasonably practicable. The corollary is that the proportion of aggregate grant paid through rate support grant should be maximised, so recognising that authorities ought to have wide discretion to determine their own priorities. It was in pursuit of this general principle that the previous Administration recommended in their Green Paper certain criteria to be used in judging the continuing need for specific grants. These criteria were fourfold: first, to give special encouragement to expenditure on particular activities or services where there is a strong national interest; secondly, to compensate local authorities for the cost of activities engaged in at the request of central Government where the authority has little or no discretion over the amount of expenditure incurred; thirdly, to supplement block grant in relation to types of expenditure the need for which arises too unevenly, as between areas or years, to be reflected in the assessment of expenditure needs; and, fourthly, to assist a local authority in the financing of expenditure undertaken for the benefit of a wider area than its own.
  A review set in hand in consultation with the convention, following publication of the Green Paper, identified a number of grants which failed to satisfy the criteria. When the Government assumed office, we were entirely content to allow the review to run its course and it has now led to the proposals embodied in the order. We propose, with the agreement of the convention, that three revenue grants and one capital grant should be discontinued effectively from 1 April.
  I do not wish to take up hon. Members' time with a comprehensive account of these four grants but their main features may be summarised as follows. Under section 9 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1966 grant has been paid on the basis of 50 per cent. of loan charges incurred by authorities in connection with the acquisition of land for use as public open space. Grant payments are running at present at approximately £33,000 per annum. No new claims have been submitted since 1978. I assure the House that grant payable to the individual authorities currently receiving this form of assistance will continue to be paid. That is permissible under article 5 of the order.
  Under section 76 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968, grant of 50 per cent. has been made available on expenditure incurred by local authorities on the supervision of imported foodstuffs. Only six authorities have submitted annual claims and the total annual payment during that period has not exceeded £39,000. This is a minute sum placed in the context of total expenditure and grant, and discontinuation of the scheme was recommended as long ago as 1974. The order provides a belated opportunity to implement that recommendation.
  Under the Education Authorities (Scotland) Grant Regulations 1948, 100 per cent. grant is available towards the costs incurred by authorities in removing war works. The grant served a useful purpose for some considerable time after the ending of hostilities in 1945 but very substantial progress has now been made in clearance of war works and no claims for grant have been received since 1976–77. The grant has clearly served its purpose.
  106
  Finally, I turn to a capital grant made available under section 97 of the Agriculture Act 1970 towards capital costs incurred by local authorities in provision of flood warning systems. Since the provisions of the Act came into force, three flood warning schemes have been grant aided at the rate of 50 per cent. of actual expenditure—two in 1974–75 and one in the current year. Accordingly, little use has been made of the provision for these grants and the amount involved relative to total capital expenditure by local authorities is small. Looking to the future, I am advised that there is little or no scope for further works of the kind covered by the scheme and no further proposals are in prospect.
  Mr. David Steel: Is the current one in Selkirk?
  Mr. Rifkind: No, the current one is in Haddington.
  Mr. Steel: There are others to come.
  Mr. Rifkind: If there are others to come, it will not be possible to finance them by this means if the order is approved. There will still be the opportunity for local authorities to cover such expenditure if they wish.
  Mr. John Home Robertson: As the scheme is in Haddington—I am sure that the House will be grateful for that information—and as Haddington is in my constituency, will the Under-Secretary of State confirm that grant will be paid on the scheme?
  Mr. Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman may rest assured that that is one of the schemes that is presently going through. It is covered by the grant and it will not be affected by the order now before the House.
  In agreement with the convention, my right hon. Friend proposes to terminate provision for the grant along with the three revenue grants that I have already described.
  I shall be glad to answer any further questions that may occur to hon. Members about the provisions of the order. As for the underlying principle, I draw attention especially to the origin of the proposals in the review initiated in 1977 and to the support voiced by the convention for the useful degree of simplification which they entail.
  On that basis, I commend the order for approval by the House.
  10.22 pm
  Mr. Donald Dewar: I might be prone to a charge of exaggeration if I were to describe the order as earth-shaking. The Opposition have no objection to it. I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for his careful—at times I thought that he was almost over-zealous—explanation of the technicalities.
  As I understand it, the idea is that the specific grants should be marginally shortened by the deletion of the four items referred to in the order. Presumably there will be a small compensatory increase in the needs element of the rate support grant. When set against the totality of local government expenditure, the sums involved are microscopic.
  There is, first, the clearance of war works from education land. When the Under-Secretary of State made his announcement, he made it sound as if it were a triumph for the present Government. I notice that in 1976–77 someone claimed £1,074 under the order. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it seems unlikely that there will be

  107
  any continued need. Any war works still lying around in school playgrounds are more likely to be preserved as ancient monuments of educational value than to be demolished.
  I accept that there is little point in keeping the flood warning system going as a specific grant. However, given the present winter, it may seem to some of us that flood warnings are relevant in Scotland.
  The other two items involve slightly more substantial sums. Imported foodstuffs payments, which are dealt with under the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968, amount to about £40,000. There has been a substantial number of payments of about £20,000 over the past five years.
  I may have misheard the Minister when he referred to section 9 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1966. I have the impression that he said that there had been no claims since 1978. That may be the position, but there were payments in 1979–80, for example, of £41,050.
  There is no point in delaying the House in nitpicking or worrying over these technical matters. The abolition of these four specific grants will make no large impact on the total rate support grant of £114 million. I am not sure whether the present RSG has been adjusted to take account of the possible disappearance of these grants or whether there will have to be some tiny and probably difficult to detect change in the calculations to take account of the mournful death of these grants as a result of the passing of the order.
  As I have said, the order will have no great impact. It stems from the review that was started by a Labour Administration. I understand that COSLA has no objection. There seems to be universal agreement that the funeral should be short. I shall not delay the House. I hope that the order will be given a smooth passage.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Local Authority Grants (Termination) (Scotland) Order 1980, a copy of which was laid before this House on 11 December, be approved.

  Highlands and Islands Shipping Services
  10.25 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): I beg to move,
  That the draft Undertaking between the Secretary of State for Scotland and Hay and Company (Lerwick) Limited and John Fleming and Company Limited, which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved.
  It may be for the convenience of the House if, with this, we take the other two motions on the draft undertakings.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): If that is the wish of the House, so be it.
  Mr. Rifkind: The three undertakings before us tonight are made under the Highlands and Islands Shipping Services Act 1960. With permission, I shall decribe the general background and then speak about each undertaking separately.
  The Government are committed through their election pledges to the survival and prosperity of the island
  108
  communities of Scotland. Hon. Members will recall that, with that aim in view, the Government introduced in July 1979 assistance for the ferry services to the northern isles through an undertaking with P and O. The Government also substantially increased in 1980 its grant to Caledonian MacBrayne's ferry services on the West Coast. It is our intention that the new and increased financial commitments will be maintained in the current year. Decisions on the levels of assistance for ferry services in 1981–82 will be announced soon.
  In March last year my right hon. Friend issued a consultative paper on "Sea Transport to the Scottish Islands". That paper discussed the pros and cons of moving to a road equivalent tariff system of charging for ferry services and also discussed the possible benefits of route licensing and tendering. Comments on the consultative paper were received from a wide range of interested parties. My right hon. Friend and I are studying proposals in the light of those replies and hope to be in a position to announce our conclusions shortly. But major changes in the present basis of support for ferry services can only be achieved gradually over a period. In the meantime, we are concerned to carry forward the task of easing the burden of sea transport costs, especially freight costs, on services to the Scottish islands. The undertakings before us tonight are designed to take that process forward.
  In promoting the undertakings the Government are seeking to achieve three aims in the interests of the islands' communities. The first is to reduce the time and cost involved to individuals and firms of importing and shipping out basic materials, which is thought to be a serious impediment to the islands' economies. As I shall explain, Government assistance will be clearly shown as a reduction in the normal tariffs of the companies concerned. While we cannot guarantee that shop prices will be reduced, I sincerely hope that firms take advantage of the reduced rates and pass on their benefits.
  Secondly, it is a specific aim to reduce particularly the cost of exporting island products, helping to make them more competitive with the mainland. That should provide a stimulus to existing firms and encouragement to potential firms. With that in mind, we have sought to provide a higher level of assistance on traffic from the islands to the mainland.
  Thirdly, we are seeking to redress the balance of support between bulk carriers and ferry operators to the islands. There is competition at the margin and the bulk operator, especially on the West Coast, has increasingly been at a disadvantage as we have increased the assistance towards ferries. I am accordingly proposing a degree of special assistance to Glenlight Shipping. I stress that our aim here is to serve the interests of the islanders and not any particular company.
  I now turn to the undertaking with Shetland Line. The purpose of this draft undertaking is to allow Shetland Line to make tariff reductions on the containerised general cargo services which the company operates between Grangemouth and Lerwick. The company also operates services carrying oil related goods from Grangemouth to Sullom Voe. The Secretary of State is proposing to assist only the non-oil services. The tariff reductions which Shetland Line will be able to make will be the same as those which P and O already offer with Government support on services to Orkney and Shetland. In other words, Shetland Line's freight charges will be reduced by 42½ per cent. for freight going south from the islands and

  109
  by 12½ per cent. for freight going north to the islands. In the view of the Government, which has been confirmed in a number of discussions with Shetland Islands council and Orkney Islands council, that percentage reduction arrangement will attract the greatest benefit to the islands' economies.
  I must emphasise that this is not a deficit grant to a loss-making company. It is a direct Government subvention to enable specific tariff reductions to be made for the benefit of the users of a particular service. The Secretary of State proposes to pay to Shetland Line a grant which will be equal to the amount of revenue which the company forgoes as a result of making rate reductions requested by him, subject only to small adjustments to reimburse the company for any extra costs directly related to the operation of the undertaking.
  If the undertaking is approved, and the scheme I have described comes into force, it will cost around £20,000 in this financial year assuming that the subsidy scheme will start on 1 February. That assistance will be met out of existing public expenditure provision. A full financial year's assistance at current rates and current prices would cost some £250,000.
  I should now like to speak about Hay and Co. This is a Shetland-based firm which carries exports from Shetland, and imports—principally fuel and building materials for local construction work—into the islands. In principle, the draft undertaking with this company is the same as that with Shetland Line. However, there are some differences in practice between the operation of the two undertakings. Hay and Co. does not operate a single service to one mainland port. Although it offers a public service to Shetland, it is a service geared to the customers' requirements. The company's two vessels therefore operate from a number of ports. Because of the diversity of the traffic handled by the company, it is our intention—until a clear pattern emerges—to have in the first instance specific cases referred to the Department for approval of assistance. Some of the goods the company carries are taken direct from Shetland to the Continent. Other cargoes come direct from the Continent to Shetland. Given our present international obligations, it will not be possible to assist these cargoes.
  A further difference is that much of the traffic which Hay and Co. carries into the islands is for resale on its own shop premises. The undertaking contains a specific clause which requires the company to pass on the benefit of and tariff reductions on these items directly to the final consumer in Shetland. There will therefore be direct and visible benefit from this assistance to consumers in the islands.
  Mr. J. Grimond: Does that mean that subsidies will not be payable on shipments to the Continent?
  Mr. Rifkind: That is correct. Because of our international obligations in relation to the payment of subsidies to commercial concerns, it would not be appropriate for a subsidy on international journeys to be provided to a particular company.
  Other than the remarks that I made prior to that intervention, the undertaking with Hay and Co. provides much the same detailed safeguards and technical features as the undertaking with Shetland Line. The Secretary of State proposes, if the undertaking is approved, to
  110
  introduce a scheme of precentage rebates from 1 February. This is likely to cost some £15,000 in the current financial year and expenditure in a full financial year at current rates and current prices would be some £150,000. This will be met out of existing public expenditure provision.
  The third company covered by the undertakings before us tonight is Glenlight Shipping. Glenlight is the principal private sector carrier of bulk cargoes on the West Coast. Perhaps this is better known as the puffer trade, although the days of the traditional "Para Handy" vessel are long past. Over half Glenlight's trading comprises services within the area covered by the Highlands and Islands Shipping Services Act.
  These Highlands and Islands services operate at a loss at present and the size of the company's losses has increased over the last year partly as a result of a combination of the effects of the recession and the costs of rationalising and improving the crane equipment of the Glenlight fleet. This modernisation is of course designed to make the company's Highlands and islands trading profitable. In the short term, however, there is little prospect of the company meeting its losses from increased freight charges as these would be so great—and would have to be unevenly applied between the islands—as to produce a transport cost which we would consider as unbearable by the largely very remote communities served by the company.
  The Secretary of State is therefore proposing to give limited direct financial assistance to Glenlight for a short interim period to enable the company to maintain its existing levels of service. We propose, therefore, to introduce a scheme of assistance which will enable the company to continue to provide its present level of service while it completes its rationalisation programme to slightly larger vessels and improves the cargo handling abilities of these vessels.
  This is not, however, to be a simple deficit grant. The Secretary of State proposes a combination of a short-term contribution towards any trading deficit made on the company's Highlands and islands services and percentage rebates on its tariffs. This will allow the Government, first, to preserve Glenlight's services to the islands by a limited subvention to the company; and, secondly, to provide assistance directly to the islands' communities through reduced transport costs.
  In addition, the system is designed to allow the phasing out of the deficit subsidy with a measure of Government assistance being shifted annually from the contribution to deficit to further percentage reductions in rates. The "hump" in costs caused by the transition to more appropriate and efficient vessels will thus be evened out and the company will be returned to full commercial operations with assistance to the islands being given through percentage reductions in commercial rates. The length of this period would be determined by experience of actual trading conditions. But the Secretary of State expects it to be short.
  The scheme proposed comprises the following elements. First, a contribution to the company's projected deficit on Highlands and Islands trading. In the first year of operation the Secretary of State proposes to pay a maximum of £100,000 in the current year towards the company's deficit. So there will be an incentive for the company to reduce costs and increase its efficiency. The Secretary of State's contribution will be based on an

  111
  estimate of the deficit agreed between the Scottish Office and the company. If the actual deficit is less than the contribution made a clawback arrangement will operate.
  The scheme also includes a reduction, set for the moment at 12½ per cent., in Glenlight's commercial rates. Like the East Coast scheme, this reduction will be identified separately on the company's invoices to its customers as direct Government assistance to the user. Excluded from this proposal will be Glenlight's trading outwith the Highlands and islands and some other specific operations, for example, those involving charter hire of Glenlight vessels by the United States navy.
  The contribution towards Glenlight's deficit on Highlands and islands trading will be reduced in real terms with assistance being transferred to increased percentage reductions on freight rates. The transition from deficit funding to fully commercial operation will be monitored and individual stages will be agreed between the Secretary of State and the company so that there will be no undesirable suddenness in increases in freight rates to the islands communities—who will, in any event, be cushioned by the percentage rebate scheme.
  The draft undertaking also include the possibility for making capital grants to Glenlight to encourage the development of efficient operation by assisting with the company's already well advanced programme of modernisation. I would not, however, expect this device to be used except in exceptional circumstances.
  In this case, if the undertaking to Glenlight is approved, the Secretary of State proposes to spend around £110,000 in the current financial year, made up of a £100,000 contribution to the company's 1980 deficit and some £10,000 in repayments for percentage reductions in freight rates. This in a full financial year is equivalent to around £250,000. The rebate scheme will come into effect on 1 February. Its cost will be met out of existing public expenditure provision. I am aware that there is widespread support in the Highlands and islands for these measures which will assist the islands, and I commend the draft undertakings to the House for its approval.
  10.36 pm
  Mr. Donald Dewar: It will be no surprise to the House that the Opposition give a welcome to these undertakings and proposals, although there are a number of individual points—some of which have been partly clarified by the Minister—on which a little more information would be of assistance to hon. Members and to the public at large.
  The basic scheme which is being introduced for all these operators is a fairly familiar formula, because it is the one that was used in the earlier undertakings with P and O Ferries. It is, of course, a system whereby there is a percentage reduction in the fare tariffs rather than a direct loss subsidy. We gather from what the Minister has said that it is an amalgam of these two systems in regard to Glenlight, but I take the point that the Government's intention is that the emphasis should be on subsidy for the user rather than a method of trying to meet a trading loss of the individual and specific company.
  I shall want to read—as I am sure other hon. Members will—the details which the Minister announced. He gave us a good deal of information about the specific schemes in each particular case. May I ask him about the extra costs
  112
  which will fall, as he gave us individual fragmented figures and I have not an entirely aggregate figure in my mind at the moment?
  In the year 1980–81, as I understand it, the Government intended to spend about £1·6 million in subsidies of this kind. Presumably that covered the original undertakings which have gone through the House in the past. I have had the advantage of seeing the correspondence concerning Glenlight that was given to my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) by the Scottish Office. A letter of 28 November indicates—this also became clear from the Minister's remarks—that Glenlight will be getting assistance in 1980–81.
  Will the Minister make clear whether the £110,000,—which I gather is the total figure to which he is referring for that year—is in that £1·6 million, and, if it is, whether the money that is to be spent in support for Shetland Line and Hay and Co. (Lerwick) Ltd. will also be in that £1·6 million? The Minister was talking respectively of £150,000 and £250,000 in a full financial year, and presumably certainly in the year there will be a very considerable impact. I wonder when he will be in a position—or whether he is now in a position—to tell us what that figure of £1·6 million will become, not only in terms of these particular undertakings but also the global total which involves the P and O subsidies as well.
  There is scepticism in certain quarters about the tariff reductions. It has been put to me that the theory about them is all very well. It is that a commercial rate is set that will cover the companies' operating costs and that that will give a reasonable profit margin. Independently of that, however, there is to be a reduction of fares because of the subsidy. Would the companies require the permission of the Secretary of State to increase fares? The undertakings are clear that if there is a variation in the tariff reductions—the 12½ per cent. and the 42½ per cent., to take the figures for P and O Ferries, which will apply in the case of the Shetlands—the written permission of the Secretary of State would be required. If those percentages were not being varied and the shipping companies wanted to put the fares up substantially, would they need the imprimatur of the authorities, or could they do it entirely off their own bat?
  In November 1980 P and O Ferries greatly increased their fares. That created a great deal of indignation among the consumers in Orkney and Shetland, if the press reports are correct. We all approve of the subsidies benefiting the consumer. Many of us are worried, however, that if there were a mark-down of 12½ per cent. or 42½ per cent., there would be a compensating rise in fares and the consumer would be left without benefit while the operators enjoyed a considerable hidden benefit. Will the Under-Secretary say a word about monitoring and indicate what provision there is for alteration of the fares structure, as distinct from the subsidy formula?
  Will the hon. Gentleman say a word or two further about paragraphs 12 and 13 of the Glenlight undertaking? I appreciate his point that these are capital grants to help with the modernisation of the fleet. But to what extent does he expect calls to be made upon them? There have been detailed discussions with Glenlight, so presumably thre is some indication of the company's precise capital requirements. There is speculation in some quarters about what they will be used for and whether they will enable Glenlight, for good or for ill, to move to a wider sphere

  113
  of operation by investing in rather more ambitious craft. We must have a good deal more information about the likely costs and intentions here.
  Although we welcome the undertakings as a useful attempt to contribute to the economy of the islands by tackling the considerable transport costs, at another level they are very much a matter of making and mending. To use a phase of my elders and betters on these Benches, it seems to be a case of hudging and fudging. We have been waiting for a long time for an announcement from the Minister on the general future shape of Highlands ferries and shipping services.
  I might outstay my welcome if I tried to rehearse the history of the road equivalent tariff. It was a manifesto commitment by the Tories. We are entitled to know whether these specific undertakings for specific shipping operators are an interim short-term measure before a decision is reached on the road equivalent tariff, or whether the patching is to continue for a considerable time and the road equivalent tariff is to be pushed out of sight and forgotten because it is an embarrassment to the Government. We want a general indication so that we can consider these undertakings in that context.
  Labour Members are obviously sympathetic to the concept of the road equivalent tariff. However, we are conscious that it is a rigid mathematical formula. If one takes the average vehicle's operating costs, multiply it by the length of the vehicle and by the length of the crossing, and if one puts in an arbitrary divine control element, one gets a rigid formula. If that is applied to the longer crossings to the more remote islands, it may have some very unfortunate consequences.
  We should want to consider carefully the results of a road equivalent tariff if it is introduced simpliciter. Nevertheless, it was a manifesto pledge. In addition, a number of useful variants, such as freight only, might be introduced. The Minister owes us some explanation of the Government's thinking. There is a newspaper report of 17 September on the Minister's press conference on the road equivalent tariff and on the many submissions made in reply to the consultative paper. He came out with a typical formula. He said that:
  'the Government remained committed to a policy of 'moving towards the principle of RET'.
  That is not exactly a ringing declaration of principle. There is just a suspicion of qualification about the phrase about moving towards the principle. I do not know whether we shall ever get past the principle to the reality. Perhaps we shall spend many years moving towards it without reaching it. However, that suspicion is compounded by the fact that these undertakings—which we assume will have a lengthy life—are being debated so late at night.
  I need hardly remind the Minister that we were promised an answer on the question of road equivalent tariff a long time ago. The last reference to it was in a parliamentary question in my name that was answered on 19 December. As such answers tend to do, it referred me to an answer printed on 27 November 1980 to a question asked by a Liberal Member, the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Johnston). The Under-Secretary said that there was
  "a wide range of views …"—
  that is not surprising.
  "These are being considered and my right hon. Friend hopes to announce his conclusions early in 1981."—[Official Report, 26 November 1980; Vol. 994, c. 122.]
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  It is a stroke of luck that it is now early 1981. Who knows? Perhaps the Minister will be able to announce those conclusions, or at least speculate about them, tonight. If not, perhaps he will be able to define "early". We should then be able to look forward to an early, definite date.
  I hope that the Minister will be able to say more about the timing of the road equivalent tariff decisions and their effect on these undertakings. I also hope that he will say a word or two about the plan in the consultative document to put routes out to tender. Perhaps he will also mention the other important shipping subsidy, namely, the one given as a loss deficit help to Caledonian MacBrayne. It operates on much the same territory as Glenlight, although not necessarily in competition with it. Last year £5·1 million was involved. There has been great speculation. I understand that Caledonian MacBrayne has advised the Minister that if fares are not to be substantially increased, and if services are not to be cruelly cut, it will need about £7 million. Some preliminary moves have already been made concerning the Clyde cruising programme.
  When will we hear what the outturn for the year is as regards Caledonian MacBrayne? That organisation made great efforts to get the relevant figures for the coming year to the Minister by October 1980. January is a critical marketing period. The company is now in a difficult position. It cannot price effectively for the important summer trade.
  What plans are there to alter the pattern of the subsidy, and who is likely to receive subsidies on the Caledonian MacBrayne routes as currently held?
  The hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacKay) was recently quoted in the Glasgow Herald. He referred to the prospect of substantial fare increases or cuts in services by Caledonian MacBrayne. I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman. He said:
  "These suggestions are horrifying."
  He then went on to say:
  "If MacBrayne can't compete with private enterprise, it should get out.
  I hope that the hon. Member for Argyll's usual intemperate advice will be ignored by the Government in the interests of his constituents. But if the Minister has in mind making changes in that set-up, this is a convenient opportunity for him to tell the House. Of course, the House may not be entirely receptive to his ideas, but it would be glad to know what they are.
  We take the road equivalent tariff matter very seriously. I do not want to sound over-zealous about seeing the Government sticking to their manifesto commitments, because there are many that I do not wish them to stick to, but this is rather more benign and desirable than most of its colleagues in the manifesto. We are worried about what is happening in this respect. Judging by the correspondence with Glenlight, there was a great deal of travail before the present undertakings saw the light of day.
  The Minister, in his letter of 28 November, with charming simplicity, said that the problem lay in ensuring that the money was available. I recognise for all Ministers the problem of ensuring that the money is available. Will the money be available for all these grandiose schemes, such as the road equivalent tariff, with which the Minister has titillated our palates during the months since the general election and on which he tried to obtain votes at the election?

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  Transport costs for the islands will be significant. The last figures that I saw on the Aberdeen-Lerwick line for a fully laden lorry were getting on for £400 and for an unladen lorry £175. These are substantial charges. If anything can be done about this matter, by the introduction of road equivalent tariff or any other move, the House would be grateful to know of it and be anxious to support it.
  I noticed with pleasure the obligatory reference to Para Handy that some intelligent civil servant wrote for the Minister. It was nice that that cliché should not be forgotten when we talked about the puffer trade. It is a romantic subject, but we should remember that it is an important part of the communications links with the islands and that it has to be run as a business.
  I hope that this undertaking will allow these valuable services to continue. I hope also that we shall hear something about the long term and will get some of the answers to the longer statutory questions in connection with road equivalent tariff that we are entitled to ask.
  10.53 pm
  Mr. John MacKay: In following in debate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar), who I think welcomed these undertakings, I should make it clear that I welcome them.
  I want to speak specifically about Glenlight Shipping Ltd. because it serves not only the islands but the remote mainland parts of my constituency by carrying bulk cargo which is not carried on the roll-on/roll-off ferry system—for example, coal, fertiliser, limestone and roadstone.
  Obligatory references have been made to Para Handy and the "Vital Spark", but we have come a long way since then. I do not think that the new vessels—which are called mini self-discharge bulkers—can be half as romantic as puffers or Para Handy. However, they carry out the important role that was fulfilled by the puffers before them. They carry coal to islands such as Iona. The romantic aspect still exists, because once a year they ground themselves on the sand and the coal is unloaded. That is important. If it were not for that, it would be extremely difficult to carry coal to Iona or to many other islands.
  One place that has been in severe trouble this winter on a remote mainland part of Argyll, the Ardnamurchan peninsula, has been Strontian, after which the element strontium was named. Unfortunately, it does not have its own private nuclear power plant, despite strontium, and it needs coal. Earlier in the winter there was a danger that the company would not be able to deliver coal there. I hope that that service will be resumed as a result of this undertaking.
  The hon. Member for Garscadden rightly mentioned that bulk carriers fitted into a jigsaw which also contained the roll-on/roll-off carriers, but that they had different purposes and it is not easy to see the Highlands and islands existing without both. That is the important part of this undertaking. Up to now, Governments have subsidised the ferry services. Under the present Government, for the first time a Government have recognised the importance of the bulk carrier. They should recognise it a little further and look at more consequences of it than just that.
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  I do not want to go very far down that road, but I think that the sea is an important highway which perhaps we have neglected, and not only the sea but also the waters of our inland waterways. Perhaps with the cost of fuel and the rising price of oil in the future it will be more important to carry more by sea, where it can be done economically as long as one is not in a great hurry. For many of the items I have mentioned, such as coal, if it takes a day or two to deliver them, so be it. Perishables, of course, are in a different category.
  I had not intended to mention one matter, but if the two speakers on the Front Benches can mention matters which are not strictly within the headings on the Order Paper perhaps I can do so, too. On the present grant negotiations with Caledonian MacBrayne, the position, as the Minister knows, is that some time has elapsed since Caledonian MacBrayne went to Seaham. I understand the Government's great difficulty. Once again, Caledonian MacBrayne is asking for a very considerable extra sum of money. Last year the Government were very generous to the company—certainly in the light of the much smaller grants given in the five preceding years by the Labour Government. But the company has come again.
  The problem is that as we run into January, as the hon. Member for Garscadden says, Caledonian MacBrayne has still not issued a definitive timetable. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you wish to go to my constituency on holiday, which would be an extremely wise thing for you to do, it is at present rather difficult to work out what your travel arrangements might be as the timetable has not been issued. Indeed, for one of my islands we still do not know on which three days of the week the boat will sail. As you will appreciate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this makes life very difficult for the people who are trying to encourage tourism on the West Coast. I urge the Minister to try to reach a final decision and a final agreement between the Scottish Office and Caledonian MacBrayne as quickly as possible.
  I also mention the consultative document on road equivalent tariff and all the documents which have come in as a response. I am not surprised that this has taken some months, given the nature of the responses and their variation. I have not read any two which absolutely agree with each other, which must make the task of putting them all together very difficult.
  Much of this has arisen from what is claimed to be done in Norway but I have read a great deal of conflicting evidence over the last few months that perhaps Norway does not do exactly what some think it does. My hon. Friend the Minister visited Norway last autumn. I wonder whether he will consider issuing some kind of paper to tell us what he found in Norway. That would be very useful. There have been conflicting letters and conflicting articles which suggest that Norway does not run an RET system. The system that it nearly runs, if it nearly runs one, is run only on a very limited number of routes—not at all like the important long sea routes that we have to some of the islands off the West Coast. Therefore, the Norwegian system is not really applicable to, say, the route to Tiree and Colonsay, or to Islay, or the longer routes out to the constituency of the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart).
  In the light of all the conflicting reports about Norway, such a paper would be useful—unless the Minister organises a trip for all of us who are interested to look at matters on the ground in Norway. [HON. MEMBERS:

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  "Hear, hear."] There might then be a sudden burst of interest in transport to the Western Isles. That appears to be so tonight. I see two hon. Members from the central belt of Scotland who seem to wish to participate in the debate. Perhaps they have heard that there is to be a trip to Norway to look at the transport system. Will my hon. Friend explain what he found in Norway and how it applies to our situation?
  I rashly said to colleagues that the debate would not last for an hour and a half. They will take a dim view if I prolong it. However, I thank my right hon. and hon. Friends for their help. The cargo boats play an important part in the interlocking transport system to the islands. It has been an anomaly that the roll-on/roll-off ferries and the other ferries of Caledonian MacBrayne have received a subsidy, whereas the others, which are also doing an important job, have received no help.
  The help is yet another example of the carrying out of our manifesto commitments. We welcome the hon. Member for Garscadden to the Manifesto group. I hope that all hon. Members, regardless of party, will welcome the Government's decision. It is important for those who live in far-away places, with historically difficult transport problems. I speak for all my constituents on the islands and the mainland served by these modern successors of the "Vital Spark" when I thank my right hon. and hon. Friends for their help.
  11.1 pm
  Mr. Donald Stewart: I welcome the draft undertakings.
  Oppositions look favourably on road equivalent tariffs, as the hon. Member for Glasgow., Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) made clear. When in Opposition, the Government made a commitment to introduce the tariff. However, two years ago in the Scottish Grand Committee I got short shrift from the right hon. Member for Rutherglen (Mr. MacKenzie) when I pressed for the tariff. I ask the present Minister to stand and deliver on his election commitment. I hope that not a great deal of time will elapse before the Government present a scheme for road equivalent tariffs. It need not be a rigid formula. Variations other than those concerning size of vehicles and length of route can be introduced.
  I do not know what scheme operates in Norway. However, I visited Norway three of four years ago with colleagues from the House. We learnt of some islands well inside the Arctic Circle. The Government in Oslo believed that the people in the far north of the country should have the same chance of economic existence as the people in the far south. I do not know the details, but there were frequent shipments from the far north of the Norwegian mainland to the islands.
  I wish to deal with the undertaking with Glenlight Shipping Ltd., which is extremely welcome in my constituency where the company operates. Without Government assistance, the company would have to enforce unbearably high rates or possibly withdraw the service, which would be drastic. The company provides a valuable service, delivering bulk cargoes to out-of-the-way places. If it was withdrawn, the cargoes could not come in by lorry or any other method. It is a vital link for us.
  I raised one omission in the undertaking over a year ago with the Scottish Office—the question of assistance to the company in Scalpay in the Isle of Harris that carries bottled
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  gas throughout the islands. That is a commodity that cannot be carried on the normal roll-on/roll-off ferries. I do not expect a reply to that tonight, but I hope that the Under-Secretary will take it up with his right hon. Friend.
  I congratulate the Government on this contribution to meeting their commitment to assist the island authorities. It will be greatly welcomed by, and of great assistance in, my constituency.
  11.5 pm
  Mr. J. Grimond: We are discussing the motions at a time when my constituency is in considerable difficulties over shipping. We are suffering the effects of strikes, bad weather and breakdowns. This emphasises the total dependence of islands upon the shipping services, and, of course, the air services.
  Apart from such difficulties, year in and year out we face extremely high freight charges and fares, and constant increases in them. The Minister said that they were thought—I think that that was his word—to be a severe handicap to the island. I can assure him that it is not only thought; they are, on all the evidence, a very severe handicap.
  I was glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman's party is pledged at least to maintain the islands in being, and that these measures are part of the redemption of that pledge. I was also glad to hear that this assistance will be based on the 42½ per cent. for outgoing cargoes and 12½ per cent. for ingoing cargoes which is already paid to the ferry services.
  I was glad, too, that we shall soon hear what the new scheme of assistance to the ferry services may be. This is not the time to debate the road equivalent tariff in detail, but I have serious doubts about it, though I do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth. It may turn out all right, but at present it seems to be immensely complicated and illogical in certain parts of its proposals, and its results appear to be unpredictable—so much so that I understand that some islands will hardly gain from it at all.
  Therefore, the Government need to look very carefully at the road equivalent tariff, if that is to be their instrument for assisting us. Anyway, I am glad to hear that assistance for the ferry services is promised, and promised soon.
  The undertakings provide valuable assistance to the shipping services in my constituency, particularly in Shetland. I have pressed for that assistance for some time, and have pointed out the unfairness of depriving other companies of any assistance while P and O receives it. At one time it seemed possible that financial stringency might lead to such assistance being postponed. I congratulate the Minister on having overcome that difficulty and producing the undertakings now. They seem to me to have several advantages.
  First, it is clear that the reduction in freight charges which will result will go to the users of the services. I have always stressed that that is an essential part of any subsidy scheme.
  Secondly, the undertakings that go to the heart of the matter—straightforward percentage assistance over freights. I believe that that is a simpler and more effective way of subsidising transport than the road equivalent tariff.
  Thirdly, the undertakings will assist bulk shipping as well as other types of shipment. To take one example, they

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  will be of great assistance to Messrs Sandison in Unst, the most northerly island of the British Isles, in their export of talc.
  There is a widespread belief that oil has proved an unmitigated blessing to Shetland and Orkney, but that is not so. First, freight charges have risen just as steadily in spite of oil. Secondly, the traditional industries have been put in considerable difficulty owing to oil, through loss of labour and the increase of some costs. It is essential that firms such as Sandison should keep in business and prosper, so that they will exist when the oil boom is over.
  I was a little puzzled by some differences between the undertakings, but the Minister has gone some way to explain them. For instance, in the case of Glenlight Shipping the grants are said to be for the support of such services as well as to enable tariff reductions to be made. In the case of Hay and Co. and the Shetland Line, there is no mention of support of the services. I now see that, as I understand it, that is because Glenlight is trading at a loss, and therefore the grant is partly to keep the service going.
  There is then the discrepancy that Glenlight is entitled to capital grants, while the other two lines are not. I do not begrudge it its good luck, but has the Minister had any discussions with Hay and Co. or with the Shetland Line about the replacement of their vessels? This is a matter of grave difficulty for small shipping companies. I hope that a similar concession may be made to them if it proves necessary.
  In paragraph 4 of the undertaking affecting Hay and Co. there is a provision that the company can benefit in a manner which I do not think occurs in the other two measures. I suppose this is because Hay and Co., as a large trader as well as shipowner, is entitled to get the benefit on the goods in which it trades.
  Mr. Rifkind: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. There is the requirement that Hay and Co. has to pass on to the consumer any reduction in the selling price of its produce in its own shops when it has had the benefit of the importing reductions.
  Mr. Grimond: I am sure that Hay and Co. will be only too happy to do what the Minister has described. I am not certain how the process will be monitored. All too often prices go up and obscure whatever subsidy may be given. I am grateful, however, that the Minister has confirmed the point.
  I understand that the Shetland Line is to get about £20,000 in the remainder of the present financial year and about £250,000 in a full year while Hay and Co. is expected to get about £15,000 in the remainder of the financial year and about £150,000 in a full year. I assume that the measures come into force at once and payments will be made on all trading that comes within them from this moment onwards.
  Mr. Rifkind: They are due to come into force on 1 February.
  Mr. Grimond: I assume also that the figures are at current prices. Although the measures, I imagine, will be kept in operation for some time, the figures can no doubt be adjusted according to what happens to inflation and to Shetland trade.
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  The proposal is a substantial help, although we still look for further help on the question of freights and fares generally. Like other hon. Members, I am grateful to the Government for introducing the undertakings. I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the percentages and the totals involved. There has been considerable interest in my constituency about the way in which the figures and percentages would work out. They will help lines that are essential in dealing with bulk shipments that cannot be handled in any other way.
  11.13 pm
  Mr. Norman Hogg: It was inevitable, I suppose, that the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacKay) should question why West Central Scotland Members have been seeking to contribute to the debate. The answer is simple. There is an interest in these matters that goes beyond the islands. Finance is involved that will be met by the taxpayers as a whole. The islands are immensely important to the economy of Scotland and the United Kingdom. When one considers the importance of Shetland and the Western Isles, it is not unreasonable that other hon. Members should make a contribution. I hope that we will receive answers to some of the questions posed by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar).
  The total cost is a matter of some interest. It is known that Norway subsidises its ferries to the extent of £30 million. I should like to know what the arrangements in Norway mean in practical terms for the industry.
  The undertakings have an importance for the island communities, not all of which are as prosperous as Shetland or anything like it. Some are depressed and have a long history of decline. At the same time, they have demonstrated that they are willing to fight for their survival. Many hon. Members would strongly support that aim. Even if the undertakings were to help only minimally, they would command my support. They have real importance for the constituency of the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart).
  When I served as a member of the transport users consultative committee for Scotland, which I suppose is another justification for contributing to the debate, I heard a good deal of the complaints that users had of the services. None the less, what kept coming through all the time was the importance that these services had to the various communities. Many of the complaints were about frequency and the failure sometimes of the service to make adequate provision. I am sure that the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Myles), who served with me on the committee, will recall many of the arguments that we had with the operators, who seemed determined to support the image of timelessness that is often associated with the Western Isles. It is that image that astonished me when I was reading a newspaper—I am sure that you are never without a copy, Mr. Deputy Speaker—entitled the Stornoway And West Coast Advertiser. It was the edition for the week ending 27 December, which carried the legend:
  "May I wish all my constituents from Muckle Flugga to the Mull of Kintyre a very happy Christmas, and may 1980 take all the people of Scotland a step nearer prosperity and peace."
  That edition appeared two days after Christmas and, of course, it was the wrong year. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Western Isles will ensure that Mrs. Winifred Ewing is acquainted with what year it is.

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  The debate affords an opportunity to say something about the road equivalent tariff. We urgently require the Government's observations on the questions that have been put tonight. A statement was promised in 1981, and it would be helpful if we were to have that statement tonight. That is probably asking too much. However, I hope that we shall get an answer very soon. The interest in RET is considerable, not least in the transport industry in Scotland. The Scottish transport group produced a paper containing comments on sea transport to the Scottish islands. That has been with the Government for some time and it would be useful to know exactly what the Government feel about those observations. I thought that they were by far and away the best informed and the best argued of the comments made upon the consultative paper.
  Mr. John MacKay: It might help the House if the hon. Gentleman were to agree with me that basically the Scottish transport group's paper is not in favour of RET and proposes an alternative method of helping the islands.
  Mr. Hogg: It contained a number of arguments. The merits of the paper lie in its contribution to the debate of RET. That is why we should have the Government's observations as soon as possible.
  The Highlands and Islands Development Board has been talking about RET since 1974. The Scottish transport users consultative committee has expressed its views. Again, it would be helpful to have the Minister's comments at the appropriate time. I appreciate that this is not the occasion for him to comment. However, I hope that we shall have very soon the Government's response to bodies that are important to the islands that are served by the ferries. I hope that we shall be given the answers that we are seeking.
  11.24 pm
  Mr. John Maxton: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg), I, too, should satisfy the curiosity of the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacKay) as to why we are speaking on this issue.
  There were two reasons why I decided to take part in the debate. First, I am glad of the opportunity to welcome State intervention in the economy, from whichever part of the House it comes. The undertaking is about State intervention to help the economy. I was surprised and pleased to hear the Minister and the hon. Member for Argyll give such a warm welcome to the subsidies. If we were to suggest, as we have on many occasions, that other elements of public transportation should be subsidised more heavily, we know what noises we would hear from the Conservative Benches.
  I welcome the undertaking because public transport should receive Government support. However, it should be not only for the island communities in Scotland but for public transport across the whole sector. If we look at Norway and other European countries to see what they do in terms of State subsidies in their public transport systems, we will find that the subsidies apply not only to island ferries but to a much wider sector. There is also a much higher level of subsidy than in Britain.
  Secondly, the islands of Scotland are not only an important part of the economy of Scotland but an important part of the leisure of Scotland. For a long time, Glasgow and the West of Scotland have considered the
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  islands as places where many people, in my constituency and elsewhere, take their holidays. I admit quite proudly that I regularly holiday on one of the islands. During my time there I discuss with the islanders the island economy and the effects of the ferry charges on the islands. When the consultative document was published, I sent it to friends on the island of Arran. I asked for their comments. They kindly sent them to me, and I forwarded them to the Minister. Therefore, I have some stake in this discussion.
  We welcome the undertakings. We welcome any subsidy that will improve the life and prosperity of those who live in the island communities. It is a matter not only of the more remote islands represented by the right hon. Members for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), but of the inner islands of the Clyde and elsewhere. They are affected by subsidies. They are as dependent on shipping as the outer islands. In some respects they are more dependent. The islands of Arran, Bute and Cumbrae do not have an airstrip. They have no air transportation, as do some of the more remote islands. If there is a shipping strike or some breakdown in service their connection is cut. Any form of subsidy to those islands is extremely important.
  The ferry charges make a profound difference to the way in which the islanders live. As the islands become increasingly dependent upon tourism, the more important become the ferries. Tourism is the major source of income for many of the islands. I see that the right hon. Member for Western Isles is shaking his head. It is true that for the inner islands tourism is now the basic industry. At a time of a strong pound and increasing inflation foreigners are not attracted to Britain. It is, however, attractive to Britons to holiday abroad if they have any money to do so. Therefore, it is difficult for the islands to attract tourists if the ferry charges for a car and family, which are high, are added to the cost of the holiday. For example, some £40 has to be found even before paying hotel bills. That makes a difference.
  That is one reason why I looked with considerable interest at the RET proposals. I accept that there are some reservations about them, but in most cases taking a car by ferry is cheaper, with the exception of one or two of the further islands. I accept the point which has been made on that, but the fact is that for freight and commercial vehicles in every instance it is cheaper, and for passengers in every instance it is cheaper. For nearly all the inner islands the costs are lower, and I suggest that it is with these islands that there is a greater movement of cars back and forth on the roll-on/roll-off ferries than there is perhaps with the further reaches of the Scottish islands.
  Therefore, although I have some reservations, I should welcome the Minister's observations on RET, and I should welcome some attempt—if the Government will not introduce RET—at least to bring in a scheme which would lower the fares on the ferries and other shipping to the sort of level proposed in the appendices to their consultative paper. That is the only way by which these island economies will survive. If they do not have fairly massive subsidies, they will not be viable.
  I take the island of Arran as an example. Until the mid-1960s it looked as though an island of that size and as close as that to the mainland could become almost totally depopulated. An upsurge of tourism in the mid-1960s through to about 1974–75 stabilised the population and made it look as though the island was again becoming

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  viable, but the decline in tourism since then has again put the island in jeopardy. I am sure that the same must be true of other Scottish islands as well.
  Therefore, any way by which the Minister can introduce yet greater subsidies for transport to the islands will be welcomed not just by Members representing island constituencies but, I believe by all Scottish Members of Parliament as a way of ensuring that the way of life of whole communities and the communities themselves will survive in the future.
  11.26 pm
  Mr. Rifkind: I thank hon. Members on both sides who have given, I think, an unqualified welcome to these undertakings.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) asked a number of questions, to which I shall now briefly respond. First, he asked whether the sums to be paid to these companies in the current year come under the £1.6 million total to which he referred. I can tell him that the £1.6 million is the figure which P and O is receiving for the current year, and the sums to which I have referred tonight, which in the current year will add up to about £150,000, will be extra sums made available out of existing resources within the Scottish Office but in addition to the sum of £1.6 million.
  Second, the hon. Gentleman asked about the effect of any proposed increase in fares which individual companies might wish to introduce, and he wanted to know whether that would need the consent of the Secretary of State. Under the terms of the undertaking, any intention to increase fares has to be notified to the Secretary of State so that he may say whether he wishes to give his consent. In general, it would not be our desire to interfere with what are essentially the internal commercial decisions of an individual company, but, clearly, that is information which would have to be passed to the Secretary of State and would be considered on its merits at the time.
  Mr. Dewar: I am grateful for that clarification because, from a reading of the undertakings, I thought that it might be only the discount, if the Minister follows me, that needed the permission—in other words, a variation from the 12½ per cent. and the 42½ per cent. Is the Minister saying that if there is an actual increase in the figure on which that discount is calculated it is at least open to the Scottish Office to refuse to allow that increase if it wants to?
  Mr. Rifkind: At this stage, the Secretary of State has indicated the sums which will be paid. Clearly, if an individual company were to change its tariff, that would affect the percentage which the subsidy reflected. In other words, at the moment it is intended that the subsidy should be 12½ per cent. in one direction and 42½ per cent. in the other. We have not given, as it were, an open-ended commitment on that. We have said that that is the percentage which the present sums represent, which the Government believe to be appropriate.
  If an individual company could unilaterally change the tariff and thereby bring upon the Government an automatic obligation to increase the subsidy, that would be an irresponsible arrangement for any Government to come to. What we have therefore said is that if a company wishes
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  to increase the tariff it has to receive the consent of the Secretary of State in the terms of the undertakings which provide a subsidy towards the tariff concerned,
  Mr. Dewar: May I clarify that? Is the Minister saying that the undertaking is not to be 12½ per cent. and 42½ per cent. but certain figures which constitute that percentage of the present tariffs, and if there is a wish to increase the tariffs so that the value or cost of those percentages increases that would not be possible without the Minister's specific permission?
  Mr. Rifkind: The Government would hope to maintain these percentges, and if the increase that the companies seek is reasonable in all the circumstances the Government might feel able to increase the subsidy proportionately. What we cannot do is to give an open-ended commitment, to be used at the sole discretion of the individual company, which brings in its wake an increased financial commitment by the Government. I see that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that.
  Both the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) asked about the capital grants that might be available, in particular to Glenlight Shipping Ltd. The position is that the company has been involved in capital works in its services, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State took the view that it would be helpful to include in the undertakings at least a power for him to give assistance in this direction in case any future technological innovations would sufficiently benefit the island communities to justify the consideraton of a Government grant. At the moment we have no indication of any such application, and we think that it is not highly probable that any such grant will be provided, but it is thought right to have some discretion in this matter.
  The hon. Members for Garscadden and for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg) appeared to rebuke the Government for the delay in making a firm announcement on the question of further support for the islands and on the future of RET. I do not think that it is up to Labour Members to rebuke the Government on any question of delay in providing further support for the island communities. During the period of the Labour Government the amount of financial support to the ferries in Scotland was reduced in real terms. One should compare that with what this Government have done at a time of declining public expenditure. We have increased the subsidy to Caledonian MacBrayne from £3½ million to £5 million, produced a new subsidy for P and O services, and arranged the bulk cargo support in the undertakings. I think that hon. Gentlemen will therefore appreciate that this Government have done more in a year and a half to help the island communities than the previous Administration did during their term of office.
  On the subject of RET, I deny any question of undue delay on the part of the Government. We issued a consultative document last summer and we said at the time, and we have said ever since, that at the beginning of this year we would announce our conclusions on the consultations that we would have. While the hon. Member for Garscadden is undoubtedly correct in saying that today constitutes the beginning of this year, so will next week and perhaps even next month. The "beginning of this year" is the phrase that the Government used, and we did not

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  indicate any specific date. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that that commitment will be kept in the terms that it was given.
  The hon. Member for Garscadden and my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. MacKay) drew attention to the fact that Caledonian MacBrayne and the Scottish transport group are anxious to know as soon as possible what their subsidy will be for the coming year, and I understand the reasons for that. We expect to indicate in the very near future what that sum will be. That is likely to be at an earlier date than has been possible in previous years, when either late January or early February was the time given to the Scottish transport group, so compared with previous years an early decision is highly probable.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and one or two others, in referring to the principle of RET, asked about the Norwegian system. They will appreciate that tonight is not the occasion on which to go into the details of the rate equivalent tariff as it is seen by other countries, but my hon. Mend is correct in saying that the view that there is some sort of rigid system of RET—or indeed a scientific system—in Norway is wrong. The system used there is of a much more rough and ready nature.
  I shall consider whether the conclusions that we drew from our recent visit to Norway should be made available for more public discussion, but one of the most lasting impressions that I received when I went to Norway was when I was informed by the Norwegian Minister responsible for these matters that, as half of the Members of the Storting had ferries in their constituencies, it would appear that a debate of the kind that we are having here this evening would result in contributions from about half of the Norwegian Parliament if they were all to speak to their constituency interests. Therefore, the matter is on a different scale in Norway from that in the United Kingdom.
  The right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), whom I thank for his welcome to these undertakings, mentioned the problem of the transportation of bottled gas in his constituency. I undertake that the Department will consider the right hon. Gentleman's point and see what is possible in this regard.
  I thank those right hon. and hon. Members who have welcomed these proposals. I am glad that they recognise, as do the Government, that it is essential that Scotland's island communities be given the fullest opportunity to develop their economic and social structure. I assure the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) that this Government have never been against the concept of helping the island communities. The concept of an indiscriminate subsidy may appeal to the hon. Gentleman, although that is what the present Government and the Conservative Party have always rejected. However, given that these were commitments that were contained in our election manifesto some time ago, he will appreciate that in the Government's view Scotland's island communities deserve the fullest support and that the Government, as we have shown already, intend to continue with a high degree of support in order to preserve these communities.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the draft Undertaking between the Secretary of State for Scotland and Hay and Company (Lerwick) Limited and John Fleming and Company Limited, which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved.
  Resolved,
  126
  That the draft Undertaking between the Secretary of State for Scotland and Glenlight Shipping Limited and Clyde Shipping Company Limited, which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved,
  That the draft Undertaking between the Secretary of State for Scotland and Shetland Line Limited and Melton Securities Limited, which was laid before this House on 5th December, be approved—[Mr. Rifkind.]

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c:
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.)
  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c:

    AGRICULTURE
    That the Sheep Variable Premium (Protection of Payments) (No. 2) Order 1980 (S.I., 1980, No. 1811), a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved—[Mr. Wakeham.]
    Question agreed to.

  Benzidine-based Dyes
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn—[Mr. Wakeham.]
  11.37 pm
  Miss Joan Lestor: Nobody would want to cause unnecessary alarm by making allegations about possible causes of cancer without some very strong evidence to support such allegations. However, when certain evidence is available and when certain action has been taken by other countries in relation to substances in common use in this country in certain industries, particularly in the cotton and leather industries, it is the responsibility of Members of Parliament to ensure that such matters be brought before the House and that the Minister involved be asked to comment on some of the findings.
  On 14 November last the American Consumer Product Safety Committee announced that it had decided to ban the use of three potentially dangerous dyes alleged to have cancer connections, particularly in relation to blood cancer. These dyes are used in this country, in America, in Japan and in many other countries in powder and liquid form and are commonly used in the two industries I have mentioned.
  The evidence quoted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Committee is to the effect that the absorption of these dye substances into the human system—by inhaling the dye product itself, by contamination through the skin by placing the hands in the dyes, or in other instances by accident, as happened in Japan in the case of the Japanese kimono painters putting a paint brush between their lips in order to get a finer point—has a strong causal relationship with blood cancer.
  So alarmed is the American Consumer Product Safety Committee by these findings that it has decided to impose a ban on these substances and to seek to find substitutes that do not involve such hazards. Naturally, that has alarmed the National Union of Dyers, Bleachers and Textile Workers, which has been anxious about the mounting allegations which have commanded the attention of the Cancer Prevention Society. Under the auspices of Gordon Wilson, an interesting pamphlet has been written dealing with the subject and particularly with the risk of bladder cancer from the use of these dyes.

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  Britain has not taken the action proposed by America in relation to the banning of the dyes and the search for substitutes. That is alarming since America is not at the forefront in such action until there is considerable evidence of the possible dangers. In America and other parts of the world surveys have been made of workers constantly involved with the use of such dyes. A survey of 200 bladder cancer patients in Japan demonstrated that many were involved in kimono painting and dyeing. The dyes were taken in through the lips.
  Other evidence substantiates the fear that there might be a strong connection between the use of the dyes and the increase in bladder cancer. Other work has been done. Experiments and tests have been carried out among people in the wool industry in Britain. Studies have been made by Raymond Cartwright and others in Leeds and they came to different conclusions. However, the dyes are not as common in the wool industry as in the leather and cotton industries. We should conduct a full examination in those industries. Until we know for sure whether there is a connection between bladder cancer and benzidine-based dyes, there should be a ban on them.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: In spite of the evidence, the National Union of Dyers, Bleachers and Textile Workers, which is concentrated in the wool and textile industry, has called for evidence on the dyes without much response from Government bodies. It is concerned about the possible cancer-causing properties of the dyes.
  Miss Lestor: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has a constituency interest. The TUC has been involved with the Government and the Health and Safety Commission in trying to get action. The conclusion is that there is no doubt that there should be, and is, anxiety about the possibility of a relationship between the dyes and bladder cancer. In spite of that evidence, there is no recommendation that the dyes should be banned.
  That is not good enough. I do not want to cause alarm among the thousands of people involved in the industry. However, it is not good enough, when America is taking action and other countries are expressing anxiety, for Britain to say that there is some evidence of a connection between bladder cancer and the use of benzidine-based dyes, but that until there is more evidence and proof is conclusive it will take no further action and allow the dyes to be used.
  If we have any slight indication that the use of certain drugs and substances in dyes is likely to be a cancer or any other risk, unless we can produce enough safeguards to avoid it, such substances should be withdrawn until the evidence is either conclusive or can be totally and utterly repudiated.
  I therefore put to the Minister, on behalf of the thousands involved, on behalf of the Cancer Research Society, the union concerned, and many other people, that unless some action similar to that taken in America is taken, the Minister must either say that America has drawn the wrong conclusions or he must justify why in this country we are seemingly still allowing these risks to be taken.
  11.46 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Waddington): I thank the hon. Member for Eton
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  and Slough (Miss Lestor) for choosing this subject for debate. She will be aware that, not only here but in many other cases involving chemicals, difficult decisions have to be made as to what precautions are appropriate, and such decisions have often to be based on incomplete and sometimes conflicting data. The Government believe that it is important that these matters should receive the fullest consideration. There is no justification whatever for confining the debate to experts, and those involved in working with potential hazards should also be involved in the decision making process.
  The hon. Member has referred in particular to the publication in this country of "Cancer at Work" by the Cancer Prevention Society, which I have read. While we welcome this valuable contribution to the debate, in that it highlights the problems, it is debatable whether all the proposals put forward in that pamphlet are wholly appropriate in the light of the evidence so far available. Before discussing benzidine-based dyes, perhaps I should say a word—so that we may have the full picture—about benzidine itself. This is the basic chemical from which benzidine-based dyes are made, and it is this chemical that has been known for very many years as a bladder carcinogen.
  The manufacture and use of benzidine and substances containing benzidine was prohibited in 1967 by the Carcinogenic Substances Regulations 1967, except where any such substance contained less than 1 per cent. of free benzidine present as a by-product of a chemical reaction. At the same time, importation of benzidine and substances containing benzidine, with the same 1 per cent. exception applying, was prohibited by the Carcinogenic Substances (Prohibition of Importation) Order 1967. The effect of this legislation was to prohibit the manufacture of benzidinebased dyes from benzidine in this country, but the importation and use of the dyes was not prohibited provided they fell within the 1 per cent. exception. In fact, benzidine-based dyes are imported and used in this country but they do not contain anything like 1 per cent. of free benzidine—equivalent to 10,000 parts per million. The free benzidine content of the dyes has been measured and found generally to be less than 30 parts per milliom.
  It is known that benzidine-based dyes are made in France, the United State of America and elsewhere. It is estimated that at the present time between 350 and 400 tonnes of these dyes are imported and sold in this country each year, this quantity being the equivalent of 1 per cent. of the total market for dyestuffs in Great Britain. Approximately 50 per cent. of the benzidine-based dyes imported are used in the leather industry, 45 per cent. in the textile industry—mainly in the dying of cotton and man-made fabrics—and the remaining 5 per cent. in the paper industry. Over 60 different benzidine-based dyes are imported, and these are mainly browns and blacks, the latter being used particularly in the leather industry.
  The potential risk which might be expected from the use of benzidine-based dyes is that of bladder cancer. It has been accepted for many years now that benzidine itself is carcinogenic, but it is only quite recently that there has been some suspicion about the low-benzidine content dyes now used. The hon. Member was right to point to studies in the United States. After animal studies there it has been suggested that a potential carcinogenic risk may arise from the actual dyes, even if free of benzidine, due to conversion of the dyes in the body to benzidine and its metabolites. The epidemiological evidence relating to the

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  use of the dyes in Great Britain and the possibility of a raised incidence of bladder cancer in man is considered by the Health and Safety Executive to be inconclusive.
  All animals so far tested have been found to metabolise benzidine-based dyes to benzidine and other derivatives. The National Cancer Institute in the United States recently reported that rats which had been fed three benzidinebased dyes, described as being widely used, developed cancer of the liver within a shorter time than would have been expected from the free benzidine content of the dyes alone. The free benzidine content of the dyes used in the experiments is not known, but in the animal feed the content was said to be less than four parts per million.
  Evidence from human studies in Russia and Japan has suggested an association between the use of benzidinebased dyes and the subsequent development of pre-cancerous lesions and bladder tumours. Very few details are known about the Russian study, but, as the hon. Member mentioned, that from Japan showed a specific association in the case of kimono painters who habitually formed points on the tips of their brushes by licking, thus inadvertently consuming some of the dyes. In a study of American dye workers carried out by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, benzidine or mono-acetyl benzidine was found in the urine of workers employed at four out of five factories at which tests were made. It was reported that good work practices were observed at the fifth factory, where the tests were negative. Perhaps that means—the report does not make it plain—that in the fifth factory there was more careful handling.
  The hon. Member mentioned that in the middle of 1980 the United States Occupational Safety and Health Administration issued a "health hazard alert" on dyes based on benzidine. In the alert the administration concluded that
  "benzidine-based dyes are potential human carcinogens"
  and
  "exposure of workers to the dyes should be reduced to the lowest feasible levels including discontinuation of use of the dyes where possible."
  In Great Britain there have been a number of studies involving dye workers, including a retrospective survey of men and women who died from bladder cancer in North Staffordshire between 1965 and 1970; a survey in Leeds between 1959 and 1967; and in 1975 a study on members of the National Union of Dyers, Bleachers and Textile Workers in Bradford. None of these has indicated a raised incidence of bladder cancer amongst dye users. The workers involved in the studies had been exposed to a variety of dyestuffs during the period when it is thought that benzidine-based dyes contained a higher proportion of free benzidine than is the case today.
  I must make plain, however, that the Health and Safety Executive has not been idle and has taken steps to evaluate the extent of the potential problem and has investigated four possible ways in which a risk may arise from the use of benzidine-based dyes in this country. First, it commissioned work by Leeds university to investigate the residual amounts of free benzidine remaining in benzidinebased dyes used in this country. Forty-four dyes were tested, 41 of which were found to contain less than 10 parts per million of free benzidine, and the remaining three contained between 50 and 70 parts per million.
  Secondly, it commissioned work by Leeds university to investigate whether benzidine-based dyes might be
  130
  broken down to free benzidine by a reductive chemical reaction in the operation of dye-stripping, that is, the removal of dye from fabric. Tests were carried out to measure any free benzidine in the air above stripping baths or in the bath liquor. No measurable amount of free benzidine was found in the air and a maximum concentration of 33 parts per million was found in the bath liquor.
  Thirdly, the executive's employment medical advisory service investigated the possibility of the formation of benzidine and mono-acetyl benzidine following the absorption of benzidine-based dyes into the body. In 1978, tests were carried out for free benzidine or mono-acetyl benzidine in 200 urine samples from workers exposed to benzidine-based dyes. The test method was capable of detecting one part in 1,000 million of free benzidine or mono-acetyl benzidine. However, neither of those compounds was found, and the American findings were not confirmed.
  Finally, in September 1980, the Health and Safety Executive commissioned research by the cancer research unit at the University of York. Two of the questions that it is hoped that this research will answer are: first, is there any evidence after application of suitable in vitro tests for biological activity, that benzidine-based dyes constitute a significant carcinogenic hazard; secondly, does any activity stem from the whole molecule or simply from the release in biological systems of the parent aromatic amine? Obviously, these studies should help to determine the potential carcinogenic hazard to man of exposure to benzidine derived dyes.
  The evidence concerning the possible health effects of benzidine-based dyes as used in this country is not conclusive one way or the other. Various opinions have been expressed as to whether benzidine-based dyes are potentially human carcinogens. No doubt this controversy will continue for some time. But the most important issue is what are the appropriate steps to be taken now in the light of present evidence to ensure the health of workers exposed to these dyes. The options are prohibition, substitution and/or control.
  It is the general policy of the Health and Safety Commission, expressed in its publication "guidance note EH 18—toxic substances: a precautionary policy" that dangerous materials should be substituted by safer ones. Clearly, prohibition is not a step that should be undertaken lightly and without due consideration of all the factors involved—medical, scientific, social and economic. Prohibition is a kind of mandatory substitution in that it forces industry to use alternative materials. In addition, when considering substitution, one must ensure that the substitutes proposed really are safer than the materials they replace. In the case of possible substitutes for benzidinebased dyes the risks to health have not in general been as fully investigated as those from the benzidine-based dyes themselves. Indeed, some reservations on the safety of some of the current possible alternatives have been expressed in the hazard alert to which I have referred. Whilst, therefore, every case for substitution needs to be carefully and individually considered, the Health and Safety Executive has concluded that it would be inappropriate to make specific recommendations at present, and has not done so for this reason. At the same time, it is recognised that more specific guidance on the control of exposure is necessary.

  131
  I should stress that it is the general policy of the Health and Safety Executive, expressed in guidance note EH 18, that exposure to all substances, including those for which there is no known limit of effect, should be kept as low as is reasonably practicable, and inspectors have been advising employers accordingly. It is generally accepted that the risk of exposure to dyes is greatest in colour stores where dyes in powder form are handled. A code of practice—"safe handling of dyestuffs in colour stores"—has recently been published by the Health and Safety Executive. The code was prepared by a committee composed of representatives of the dye manufacturers, employers and trade unions in the user industry and the Health and Safety Executive. Although the code is not intended to deal specifically with the handling of benzidine-based dyes, but rather with the handling of dyes in general, it makes recommendations which were applied in practice, greatly reduced the exposure of workers to dyestuffs, and hence reduced the extent of potential risks.
  In relation to the safe use of benzidine-based dyes, the Health and Safety Executive is preparing a guidance note
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  for publication. This is currently in the course of preparation and, before being published, will be reviewed by the advisory committee on toxic substances, on which employers, trades (unions and local authorities are represented, together with independent experts.
  I hope that what I have said will convince the hon. Lady that the Government are concerned to ensure that the health of employees who work with benzidine-based dyes is safeguarded. I trust that she will have formed the conclusion that this subject has been studied in great detail and that the research that has been commissioned shows that there is no complacency about it. The medical and scientific evidence will be kept under review and any new developments will be carefully considered. I am sure that the Health and Safety Executive will take careful note of what she has said tonight, but she may in any event be sure that the views of all interested parties will be fully taken into account when considering all the aspects of the matters which we have debated here tonight.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at three minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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  Marine Nature Reserves
  Marine Nature Reserves
  Property Services Agency (Territorial Organisation)
  Property Services Agency (Territorial Organisation)
Transport
  Trunk Road Schemes
  Trunk Road Schemes
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Trunk Roads
  Trunk Roads
  Child Accidents
  Child Accidents
  European Road Haulage Permits
  European Road Haulage Permits
  Private Street Works (Keighley)
  Private Street Works (Keighley)
  Airedale Trunk Road
  Airedale Trunk Road
  Motorways
  Motorways
Education and Science
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Shilbottle (School Closure)
  Shilbottle (School Closure)
  Mentally Handicapped Persons (Education)
  Mentally Handicapped Persons (Education)
  Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art (Report)
  Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art (Report)
  Undergraduate Courses (Cost)
  Undergraduate Courses (Cost)
  Students
  Students
  Schoolchildren (Travel Costs)
  Schoolchildren (Travel Costs)
  Youth Service Provision
  Youth Service Provision
Trade
  Indonesia
  Indonesia
  Copyright
  Copyright
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Origin Marking
  Origin Marking
  Imports (Greece)
  Imports (Greece)
  Insurance Intermediaries (Codes of Practice)
  Insurance Intermediaries (Codes of Practice)
  Business Registrations
  Business Registrations
  Textiles
  Textiles
  Manufactured Goods
  Manufactured Goods
Agriculture, Fisheries and Food
  Common Agricultural Policy
  Common Agricultural Policy
  Food Costs
  Food Costs
  Thames Barrier (Exhibition)
  Thames Barrier (Exhibition)
  European Community (Benefits)
  European Community (Benefits)
  Interest Rates (German Farmers)
  Interest Rates (German Farmers)
  Land Purchases (German Nationals)
  Land Purchases (German Nationals)
  Badgers
  Badgers

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Derby.

Gatwick Trains: Intercom
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why there is no system of intercom on trains to and from Gatwick Airport.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, this is a matter for the Railways Board. I understand that the board expect to submit soon to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport a proposed scheme for improving the rail services to the airport which would include the provision of trains equipped with a public address system.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that reply, may I ask whether he realises that the time envisaged is three to four years for new trains; and would he not agree that, if British Rail are putting intercommunication into other trains, it is a priority to have them on the line to Gatwick so that the ever-growing number of airline passengers and those meeting them may learn, not only at Victoria Station but in the train itself, of delays to aeroplanes?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I understand that the modified rolling stock used on the Gatwick Airport service has now more luggage capacity than normal. However, because of the make-up of the trains—that is, the airport stock is attached to and detached from through trains at Gatwick Station—I understand from the board that there will be operational difficulties in providing a public address system on only the airport portion. There is insufficient justification for the expenditure now needed to equip those trains with a public address system. May I assure the noble Baroness that the new scheme put forward seems to produce a satisfactory answer.
Baroness Burton of Coventry: My Lords, will the noble Earl ensure that these two points are included in the report or request being made to British Rail? Is he aware that when I arrived at Gatwick at around 4.30 p.m. on a recent Thursday I found that that part of the train detached and remaining in the station was under no roof and passengers were entirely exposed to the elements, and not a single porter was available? Is he further aware that when I returned from Gatwick to Victoria at about 6.30 p.m. on a Friday there was not one porter and not one trolley on the platform? This is disastrous for tourists, apart from the poor regulars.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I was not aware of those points. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for bringing them to my attention. So far as Gatwick Airport is concerned, the station is under rehabilitation at this moment. The lifts should be in by the spring and the station, undergoing a £6 million refit, should be ready by 1982. I am sure that that will be something that we can be proud of at Gatwick. So far as this end at Victoria Station is concerned, the scheme which is under consideration at the moment has considerable improvements for Victoria as well.
Lord Hale: My Lords, can the noble Earl explain why it is that Questions can be put about Victoria Station, and about trains proceeding from Victoria Station which are equipped with first-class compartments, when I have not been allowed in eight years to put something like 200 separate Questions that I wished to ask about the service being provided and contemplated in the immediate future relating to practically all the productive workers in London, and, as far as I am concerned, particularly about the Orpington line?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, on any Question where the Railways Board is concerned, I have to reply that it is a matter for the Railways Board. The point the noble Lord now raises is outside my purview.
Lord Hale: My Lords, the Question was about intercommunication on trains. I should like to ask questions about the absence of lavatories on trains. This is a terrible grievance for older people who are travelling backwards and forwards.
Lord Denham: My Lords, if I may answer the noble Lord, there are well accepted practices with regard to Questions that are asked and answered on the nationalised industries. In the end, it has always been thought right that it is up to any noble Lord or any Member of another place to decide whether a Question is proper for him to ask, whereas it is up to the individual Minister to decide whether it is a proper Question for him to answer.
Baroness Vickers: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether when this new communications system is installed he will ensure that announcements are made in more than one language? Many people travelling on the trains do not understand English.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I understand that British Rail are proposing to use multi-lingual tapes.
Lord Hawke: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that he will have to have a Tower of Babel at Gatwick judging by the passengers I see every day I come up to London?
Lord Glenarthur: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, so far as I know, there is generally no means of intercommunication between the guard and the driver on any of the older trains, although there may be on the more modern high-speed trains? Would he not agree that safety would be enhanced by so equipping trains? Can he say whether British Rail

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have any plans so to equip their older rolling stock, which we understand will be in service for some years to come?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I think that that question is a slight digression from the original Question, but I am sure that British Rail will bear in mind what the noble Lord has said.

Namibian Independence Conference
2.43 p.m.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the proceedings of the conference on Namibian independence; and what action they propose following its failure.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Lord Carrington): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are deeply disappointed by the failure to achieve agreement on a date for a cease-fire in March leading to independence for Namibia by the end of 1981. It proved impossible to reach agreement at the Geneva meeting in view of the statement of the delegation led by the South African Administrator-General that it was "premature" to agree on an implementation date. This is an especially regrettable set-back after the great efforts of the United Nations, the Western Five and the front line states to meet the reasonable concerns of South Africa and the internal parties. We support the chairman's closing appeal to those concerned to reconsider their position. The Five will review the position with the other participants in the negotiations and we shall discuss the problem with the new American Administration. Meanwhile, the progress made so far in preparing the ground for a settlement should not be thrown away.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, may I thank the Minister for that very full statement. May I ask him whether he will accept that I am so gravely concerned about the consequences of this failure that I will refrain from criticism of South Africa and the DTA and seek to suggest a way to settlement? Is he aware that the proposal is made for economic sanctions but that would be vetoed by the Security Council? Is there not another approach? SWAPO, with the support of the front line states, has proposed that United Nations' support for it should be withdrawn when a date is fixed for the cease-fire. Would it not be possible for the General Assembly of the United Nations to carry a Motion to that effect? If they did, would it not be very difficult for South Africa and the DTA to resist it?
Lord Carrington: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, for what he has said and I certainly should like to look at his suggestion. There is no doubt that one of the factors which affected
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the South African decision to say that the implementation was premature was their feeling that the United Nations was not impartial. There were attempts to give undertakings to satisfy the South Africans and the internal parties about this. But they were not sufficient. This may be one way of doing it and I am grateful to the noble Lord for suggesting it.
Lord Goronwy-Roberts: My Lords, may I very warmly welcome the forthright and clear statements made by the Foreign Secretary on this matter and strongly support the suggestion made by my noble friend. We agree that the best way to move forward without losing the momentum which the Foreign Secretary, foremost among others, secured for us in this matter towards the end of last year, would be to reconvene the Five and other countries and to consult them with a view to reconvening the conference as soon as possible under United Nations' auspices on the basis that the unilateral and singular recognition of SWAPO, as the only negotiating body, would be dropped in favour of a more comprehensive basis for negotiation.
Lord Carrington: My Lords, I am equally grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts. What I think is absolutely essential—because I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has said about the gravity of the breakdown of these negotiations—is that we should continue to seek a settlement and do what we can to avert a complete breakdown. Consequently, any suggestions which are made will be looked at most carefully by Her Majesty's Government.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, could the Government say what would be the earliest date on which the General Assembly, if it were so minded, could pass a resolution such as has been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway? In view of what the Foreign Secretary said about progress not being thrown away, could he in the meanwhile seek an assurance from the South African authorities that they would be prepared to adhere to the original timetable if such a Motion were passed?
Lord Carrington: My Lords, the last part of the noble Lord's question is going a little fast. What I said was that we would look and see whether there was anything that could be done on the lines of what the noble Lords, Lord Brockway and Lord Goronwy-Roberts, said. With regard to his first supplementary question, I must confess that I am afraid that I do not know.
Lord Gladwyn: My Lords, is it correct that the General Assembly, under the charter, has no power to give effect to its resolutions and that is one of the difficulties?
Lord Carrington: My Lords, the original resolution was passed by the General Assembly and consequently a further resolution by the General Assembly would have the effect of rescinding it.
Lord Paget of Northampton: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. First, his

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statement that the South Africans doubt the impartiality of the United Nations on this issue. In his view are the South Africans correct in having those doubts? The second point that I should like to ask him is this: In a general way have we any preference as to whether the future Government of Namibia is on our side or the other side? If we have a preference in the matter, what are we doing about it?
Lord Carrington: My Lords, whether or not the South African Government are right or wrong about the partiality of the United Nations, before any United Nations' agreement comes into operation what we must make sure is that the United Nations is impartial. That is absolutely essential. Regarding the second part of the noble Lord's question, I always prefer people who are on my side; but, on the other hand, perhaps it is better for the people of Namibia to make up their own minds.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have written to a leading member of the un-aligned nations suggesting that they should propose a Motion of this kind at the General Assembly and I have informed the chairman of SWAPO and of the front line states? Will the British Government indicate to them their support if such a Motion were introduced?
Lord Carrington: My Lords, the noble Lord has sprung this suggestion on me without any previous notice. I think that I should like to consider it a little more before making so positive a statement. But I will certainly examine it.

Hospital Equipment: Donations and Tax Relief
2.50 p.m.
Baroness Vickers: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider zero-rating for VAT purposes the ambulances and wheelchairs which are given to hospitals by voluntary organisations.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Lord Cockfield): My Lords, wheelchairs and a wide range of other items can, under certain conditions, be supplied free of tax to chronically sick or disabled persons for their domestic use and to charities for onward supply to such persons. In the case of articles donated to hospitals, relief is confined to medical or scientific equipment solely for use in medical research, diagnosis or treatment and does not extend to transport or general hospital equipment. Changes in tax relief are a matter for my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget.
Baroness Vickers: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. I hope he will realise that the voluntary organisations are now supplying…many
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things which they used not to supply, because of the various cuts in supplies that have occurred. Perhaps the noble Lord would be kind enough to pass this point on to his right honourable friend the Chancellor, so that he might accept it in the coming Budget.
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, I do, indeed, entirely appreciate the point that my noble friend makes. I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what she says.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, are the Government not being a little inconsistent in this matter? We all know that the Government are anxious to foster more interest in the National Health Service by the public and by voluntary organisations. If, on the other hand, people find in so helping that part of the money that they have given is going in VAT, will this not be a disincentive to encouraging voluntary organisations to make this kind of gesture—a gesture which Members on all sides of the Houe would want to encourage?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, while, of course, I appreciate the point which the noble Lord makes, I do not think that a charge of inconsistency really lies. There are problems with the extension of selective reliefs. This is why, last year, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave very substantially improved conditions for charitable giving. The period for deeds of covenant was reduced from seven years to four years, and for donations up to £3,000 a year relief is now available against the higher rates of tax. The object of this was to enable people to give increased donations to the charities in which they were particularly interested, and I hope very much that the charities will take advantage of these improved conditions.
Lord Maybray-King: My Lords, while appreciating what the noble Lord has said about the benefits already conferred upon the charitable organisations, as one who wholeheartedly supports the request of the noble Baroness, Lady Vickers, for aid in this field, may I ask whether he would also ask his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give very sympathetic consideration to the request made by the seven leading voluntary organisations for relief from VAT, so that people who give to a charity give to the charity, and not to the Government?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says. At this time of the year representations are received from a wide range of bodies and organisations. All of these are given the most careful consideration by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I can assure the noble Lord that what he says will be considered very carefully.
Lord Shinwell: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the question of relief in relation to VAT, as asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Vickers, received what in my judgment and, I think, in the judgment of those who were present, the unanimous support of every speaker who addressed the House in the recent debate on disablement?—a debate which, in my judgment, demonstrated complete justification for the existence

243
of the House of Lords. Why does the noble Lord come along and say that this is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer? This is a matter for the decision of the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and not for the Chancellor of the Exchequer alone. When the noble Lord speaks on behalf of the Government, he speaks not on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer but on behalf of the Government.
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says. Nevertheless, the tradition is that the Budget is presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and not by anybody else.
Lord Segal: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that any relief from paying VAT on these articles which are supplied by voluntary organisations will only relieve the hospital of any extra unnecessary expenditure on the same articles?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, I appreciate the point which the noble Lord makes. I can go no further than to say that the comments that he makes will certainly be considered.

British Rail: South-East Commuter Services
2.56 p.m.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made to improve the efficiency of rail services on the commuter lines in the South-East of England.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, an important step was the Government's decision to ask the Monopolies and Mergers Commission to investigate the efficiency of British Rail's London and South-East services. In their report published last October, the Commission made a number of detailed and constructive recommendations for improving the performance of these services, most of which the Railways Board are now implementing. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport will be discussing with the chairman of the Railways Board the progress that is being made.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. In connection with the Monopolies Commission, has he any information about their investigation of British Rail's publication Towards a Commuters' Charter?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the Commission concluded that in providing the London commuter services the board are not pursuing a course of conduct which operates against the public interest. Indeed, the report praised a number of achievements of British Rail's management. But the Commission did identify a number of serious weaknesses, and made positive recommendations for eliminating these faults
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and improving performance to the general benefit of London and suburban commuters. The 300-page report is a wide-ranging document, which is not easy to summarise in a few words, but it covers matters such as more effective targets for management, better methods for controlling costs and greater efficiency.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, would the Minister confirm the statement made by Sir Peter Parker recently on television, that the London commuter pays two-thirds of the cost of taking him from wherever he lives to the centre of London and back again, whereas the average commuter in Paris pays only one-third of the cost? Does the noble Earl not think that there is something wrong in such a comparison, and that the Government should be more generous in the grants that they make to British Rail for supporting commuter services?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I cannot, of course, comment on the figures which the chairman gave on TV. I should, however, like to say that the proportion of the budget which goes towards London and the South-East area is 25 per cent., and that has stayed more or less constant, so that the South-East does get looked after well. As regards the level of money which the Government give to British Rail, this has stayed at a constant real figure and is the same as was given by the last Administration in 1978.
Lord Leatherland: My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord said about the cheapness of travelling in Paris, would the Government consider saving Government money by holding the meetings of this House in Paris?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I should be delighted to take part.
Baroness Wootton of Abinger: My Lords, does the noble Lord not appreciate—and if he does, will he call the attention of British Rail to it—the disappointment that is caused by the information that most of the improvements have already been implemented? That is in a situation in which, on one particular line, corridor trains are regularly run with the access from one coach to another permanently blocked, with the lavatories all permanently locked and where the trains stop at a station which is being rebuilt and has no lavatory.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, the investment by British Rail in commuter services generally is a constant figure, and is certainly not being stopped at the end of this year, or any other year. The Government have maintained British Rail's investment ceiling at the same level in real terms; that is, £325 million. The board itself must choose its priorities within the investment ceiling, but the Monopolies Commission found no justification for any conclusion of bias against the London commuter services.
Lord Wallace of Coslany: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that it is rather strange to hear his statement about the efficiency of services in the South-East being increased, when a considerable number of stations

245
are being closed at certain hours and when services are being reduced? To catch a train at Charing Cross is very much like entering the treble chance: either the train runs, or it is cancelled, or it is very late.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, rather like the recent press reports, the noble Lord is slightly exaggerating. The board have now published their proposals for changes to the Southern Region commuter services next June. These are much less severe than the impression created by the early press reports. The board's announcement explained that the already existing excess capacity on some London commuter services and the recent fall in demand for rail travel resulting from the recession means that, like any other business, they must act to bring supply more into line with demand.
Viscount Barrington: My Lords, does the noble Earl the Minister agree that if the noble Baroness's statement was correct, as I am sure it was, his reference to a constant figure did not include constant running water?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I take note of what the noble Viscount has said.

Felixstowe Dock and Railway (No. 2) Bill
Bill read 2a, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.

House of Lords' Offices
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move that the First Report from the Select Committee be agreed to.
Moved, That the First Report from the Select Committee be agreed to.—(Lord Aberdare.)
The Report was as follows:
1. APPOINTMENT OF SUB-COMMITTEES
The following members of the Committee were appointed to the Sub-Committees:
(a)Administration Committee

L. Aberdare

L. Jacques

L. Ampthill

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

L. Darling of Hillsborough

L. Reilly

L. Denham

B. White

V. Eccles

L. Wigoder

B. Hylton-Foster

With the Clerk of the Parliaments and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.
With power to co-opt further Lords.
(b)Library Sub-Committee

E. Bessborough

L. Edmund-Davies

L. Darling of Hillsborough

L. Parry

B. David

L. Seebohm

V. Eccles

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.
With power to co-opt further Lords and to appoint their own Chairman.
(c)Refreshments Sub-Committee

L. Ampthill

B. Hylton-Foster

L. Aylestone

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

B. David

E. St. Aldwyn

L. Denham

L. Tryon

E. Fortescue

L. Wigoder

L. Hayter

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.
With power to co-opt further Lords and to appoint their own Chairman.
(d) Staff of the House Sub-Committee

L. Aberdare

B. White

L. Nugent of Guildford

With the Clerk of the Parliaments and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.
With power to co-opt further Lords.
(e) Finance Sub-Committee

L. Aberdare

V. Eccles

L. Ampthill

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

L. Denham

L. Wigoder

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.
With power to co-opt further Lords.
(f) Works of Art Sub-Committee

M. Cholmondeley

L. Reilly

V. Eccles

L. Strabolgi

E. Gosford

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.
With power to co-opt further Lords and to appoint their own Chairman.
(g) Sub-Committee on Computers

L. Darling of Hillsborough

V. Eccles

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.
With power to co-opt further Lords and to appoint their own Chairman.
2. REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT
The Committee received a report from the Refreshment Sub-Committee and were informed of the appointment of Mr. A. Bibbiani as Superintendent.
3. PARLIAMENT OFFICE

(a) The Committee were notified of the appointment of Mr. M. Widdup, CB, as a temporary Clerk.

(b) The Committee authorised a new post of Executive Officer in the Accountant's office.

4. OFFICIAL SHORTHAND WRITER
The Committee were informed of the resignation of Mr. A. P. W. Brewin from the office of Shorthand Writer to the House and of the appointment of Mrs. E. M. C. Holland in his place from 1st January 1981.
The Committee approved a revision in the scale of fees for the Shorthand Writer.
5. HANSARD REPORTING STAFF
The Committee authorised:

(a) revised charges for the supply of typists for the reporting of debates;

(b) revised attendance fees for temporary Reporters;

(c) revised late night attendance fees for permanent Editors and Reporters.

6. DOORKEEPERS
The Committee authorised a revision in the rates of pay and uniform allowances of Doorkeepers.
7. REVISED RATES OF PAY AND ALLOWANCES
The Committee confirmed the application of the following Civil Service Memoranda:

(a) CM/450—Subsistence and Meal Allowances

(b) CM/451—London Weighting

(c) CM/461—Responsibility Allowances

(d) GM/212—Specialist Advisers fees

(e) CSDIM(80)10—Revisions of pay for Industrial grades

(f) CSDIM(80)12—London Weighting for Industrial grades giving revised rates of pay and allowances to applicable staff of the House of Lords.

8. SUPERANNUATION
The Committee were notified of the following awards:

(a) Revised pension and lump sum to Mrs. J. L. Preston, Senior Personal Secretary, who retired on the 1st September 1980;

(b) Revised pension and lump sum to Mrs. A. Langley, Cleaner, who retired on the 18th April 1980;

(c) Preserved pension and lump sum to Miss E. A. McInroy, Senior Personal Secretary, who resigned on the 30th May 1980;

247

(d) Revised preserved pension and lump sum to Miss C. Jennings, Higher Executive Officer, who resigned on the 30th June 1980;

(e) Preserved pension and lump sum to Miss S. C. Hodson, Personal Secretary, who resigned on the 27th June 1980;

(f) Revised short service payment to Miss A. E. M. Roberts, Personal Secretary, who resigned on the 31st May 1980;

(g) Revised short service payment to Miss E. A. Bowen-Jones, Personal Secretary, who resigned on the 25th April 1980;

(h) Revised short service payment to Mrs. S. Sadler, Clerical Officer, who resigned on the 30th July 1980;

(i) Transfer value payment to Cambridgeshire County Council in respect of Miss T. E. Slowik, Cataloguer, who resigned on the 15th February 1980;

(j) Short service payment to Miss C. E. Vernon, Personal Secretary, who resigns on the 16th January 1981;

(k) Short service payment to Miss K. M. Towneley, Personal Secretary, who resigned on the 21st November 1980;

(l) Pension and lump sum to Mr. F. W. Selby, Doorkeeper, who retires on the 24th January 1981;

(m) Transfer value payment to British Broadcasting Corporation in respect of Mr. C. H. Cumming-Bruce, Senior Clerk, who resigned on the 11th April 1980.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Wildlife and Countryside Bill
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon rose to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to whom the Wildlife and Countryside Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order, vizt.:—

Clauses 1 to 8;

Schedules 1 to 4;

Clauses 9 and 10;

Schedule 5;

Clause 11;

Schedule 6;

Clause 12;

Schedule 7;

Clause 13;

Schedule 8;

Clause 14;

Schedule 9;

Clauses 15 to 28;

Schedule 10;

Clauses 29 to 36;

Schedule 11;

Clauses 37 to 40;

Schedule 12;

Clauses 41 to 45;

Schedule 13;

Clauses 46 to 53;

Schedule 14;

Clause 54.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

International Organisations Bill [H.L.]
Read 3a; an amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

Parliamentary Commissioner (Consular Complaints) Bill [H.L.]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, I under
248
stand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Lord Trefgarne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Merchant Shipping Bill [H.L.]
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged. —(Lord Trefgarne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Bill [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Trenchard I beg to move that this Bill, the Deep Sea Mining (Temporary Provisions) Bill, be read a second time.
Some noble Lords may well wonder what deep sea mining is all about and why this Bill is described as a temporary provisions Bill. What we are presenting is in fact a Bill to regulate the mining of what are usually described as the "hard" mineral resources found on the seabed of the world's oceans. The provisions are only temporary because there is, and has been for many years, a United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea that is trying to agree to an international regime to cover such mining. We hope that when agreement is reached this international régime will supersede our national measures, but in the meantime we need this Bill to encourage our own industry to maintain their vital programmes of research and development.
Before discussing the general principles and the detail of the Bill, I think it would assist your Lordships to consider the background against which it is set. The United Kingdom's industrialised economy is critically dependent on imports of many hard minerals. We have therefore a major interest in securing access to supplies not controlled by other countries. Beneath the two-thirds of the world's surface which is covered by the sea there lie vast and untapped quantities of hard minerals and other resources.
As long ago as 1874 a scientific expedition by HMS "Challenger" discovered and recorded the presence on the seabed of deposits and nodules containing significant quantities of iron, manganese, nickel, cobalt, copper and other minerals. At the time these were regarded merely as a scientific curiosity but we now

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know that the world community has practical cause to be grateful for the discovery made by that United Kingdom expedition. By the 1960s it had become apparent that there was commercial potential in gathering these nodules and recovering their useful metals.
It may be helpful to explain a little more about what these nodules are and where they are found. Nodules are potato-sized lumps containing significant quantities of manganese, nickel, cobalt and copper. They lie on the seabed in a single layer one nodule thick. We do not fully understand how they are formed but it is clear that they require the undisturbed conditions that are found only in areas of the deepest oceans. Although nodules have been found in various parts of the world's oceans, it is only in the North Pacific that the deposits are rich enough to justify pioneering commercial operations. The prime area lies in the Clarion-Clipperton zone, between Hawaii and California, which is an area of some 3 million square kilometres far away from any land, where the sea is about five kilometres deep. Being right in the middle of the ocean these are resources of the high seas and, according to the doctrine of the freedom of the high seas, all countries in the world enjoy freedom to recover them.
In 1970 the General Assembly of the United Nations called for a Third Conference on the Law of the Sea to be convened and adopted a resolution stating that the seabed beyond the limits of national jurisdiction, and its resources, was the common heritage of mankind. Even before these principles were declared, work towards an international regime for the peaceful uses of the seabed was in hand and since 1973 the conference has been trying to negotiate an international system of regulations for seabed mining as part of a comprehensive new convention of the Law of the Seas. We hope the tenth session of the conference, in March and April of this year, will be the last, but, even if it is the last, several years are likely to elapse before an agreed convention comes into force. At present no one can tell exactly when an international régime will come into being.
In the meantime, while international negotiations have continued, mining companies from many countries have formed consortia to assess the practical possibilities of making use of the seabed resources, and to develop the methods and equipment needed to recover nodules. There are now six consortia which include companies from the United States of America, Canada, Japan, the Federal Republic of Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy as well as from the United Kingdom. Since the 1960s these companies have between them invested well in excess of £150 million. They made this investment in the expectation that by the time they had resolved the huge technical problems of developing this new industry the Law of the Sea Conference would have worked out an internationally agreed set of regulations under which they could operate. But that work has proceeded very slowly and although some progress has now been made the pace of work has not kept up with the development of mining technology.
That clearly leaves the companies in a difficult position. In this industry the normal commercial hazards of a completely new activity requiring as yet unproven techniques are compounded by international political and legal…uncertainties. The companies
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need to embark on a second stage of development, which will have to concentrate on specific sites, but of course they hestitate to invest additional funds of up to £100 million for each project while they have so little assurance of a guaranteed site or any return on their investment.
So it is that, pending international agreement, the companies have turned to their own Governments to seek national measures which will go at least some way towards providing the framework for development which they require. Since 1971 the United States Congress has considered a number of deep sea mining Bills and in June 1980 passed a Deep Seabed Hard Mineral Resources Act which is broadly comparable in terms of United States legislation to the Bill we are considering here today. The Federal Republic of Germany also passed a similar measure last year in support of German companies' interests. Once again our companies seek equivalent support.
Your Lordships may ask what national legislation of this kind can do for companies. We do not claim that the resources of the deep seabed belong to us; nor are we imposing any conditions or restrictions on the behaviour of citizens or companies of other nations. However what we can do is to provide a framework which would ensure that the activities of United Kingdom citizens take place in an orderly manner. Without legislation there would remain an unregulated free-for-all which would benefit no one here, and without legislation in this country our United Kingdom mining companies would be at a disadvantage compared with their counterparts in other countries. We think that the interim regulation set out in this Bill should give the companies sufficient assurance to justify continuing their development and expenditure so that they are in a position to take maximum advantage of the new international regime when it emerges.
I must emphasise that the Government remain absolutely determined to achieve a satisfactory outcome to the United Nations Law of the Sea Conference. This is the long-term solution for deep sea mining and this Bill in no way diminishes our commitment to that long-term solution. Nor does it attempt to preempt what may be decided at the UN Conference. So a moratorium is imposed on the commercial recovery of these nodules until 1988 to allow reasonable time for the international convention to come into force before actual mining takes place. There is also in the Bill a provision for taxing any production under this legislation so that a proportion of the benefits may be shared with other countries of the world when an international authority is set up—a kind of levy. The proposed convention includes rigorous requirements for payments of this tax or levy to the authority.
As part of the transitional arrangements towards an international regime we believe that the convention will need to include some safeguards for the early investment of the pioneering mining companies. With satisfactory transitional provisions, the Bill and the international convention will together form a firm statutory basis on which the development of the industry may continue in both the short and long term.
I hope this has given the House at least some idea of how this Bill complements the industrial and the

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international framework. I turn now briefly to the main provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 prohibits United Kingdom nationals from exploring for or recovering the mineral resources on the deep seabed without a licence. At present these activities may be carried out as part of the freedom of the high seas but, as I have explained, companies are unwilling to invest vast sums of money without more specific legal arrangements. Clause 2 outlines the arrangements for licences that will authorise exploration or exploitation in specific areas of the seabed. Licences will contain a number of terms and conditions in order to control the standards of operations and safeguard the marine environment.
The Bill provides in Clause 3 for taking account of the licences or other authorisations for deep sea mining granted by the other states which pass similar legislation. This arrangement will enhance the rights that attach to any licence issued by the United Kingdom, since it will, in our view, lead to recognition by other states. Recognising the licences of other countries with similar aims and standards will effectively contribute to the orderly development of the industry, and to properly controlled and co-ordinated exploitation of seabed resources. This clause lays the foundation for reaching beneficial agreements of that kind.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to the provisions made in Clause 5 for protecting marine creatures and plants and their habitat. While we cannot yet know the full effects of the new mining techniques, this clause is supplemented by the powers to make regulations preventing mining methods that may be harmful to the marine environment and to include conditions in licences as they become appropriate.
Clause 8 is an unusual but necessary provision. It gives the Government the power to take countervailing measures against another state that discriminates against United Kingdom registered ships in connection with deep sea mining. United States legislation includes a provision restricting US licensed explorers and miners in their use of foreign vessels. This is clearly against the interests of our shipping industry and we wish to be in a position to retaliate against such protectionist policies, though of course I hope that, by international agreement here which we could work out, such retaliation would not be necessary. I have already mentioned that there will be a levy on production to be paid to the international authority when it comes into being. This is dealt with in the Bill in Clauses 9 and 10.
I hope that I have made it clear to your Lordships that the fundamental objective of the Bill is to provide a temporary statutory framework within which our mining companies can continue their valuable development work in this new and important industry. It looks forward to the entry into force of a satisfactory international convention, which we are determined to achieve within a reasonable period. In the interests of continued United Kingdom participation in deep sea mining and the orderly development of the industry I commend the Bill to the House. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Earl of Gowrie.)
3.18 p.m.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, the noble Earl was exemplary in his brevity in introducing this Bill and I think we all recognise that the search for brevity has compelled him to refrain from mentioning some of the background of United Nations politics which must affect the judgment of the Government and of Parliament in the decision on what to do about this Bill. As the noble Earl said, this is the third Bill of its type to appear in the world: first, the American; then the German, now us. The noble Earl gave a list of countries which were involved in consortia to carry out the deep sea mining before the UN arrangement comes into effect. He started with Canada, Japan and France. It would be of some interest if he could tell us, at the end of the debate, whether any of those countries—or indeed any others—are also considering interim national legislation of the type that we have before us today.
Before coming on to my major misgivings about this Bill—I find that the longer one stays in politics the more misgivings one has about everything, but they are certainly quite strong—I should like to run through some minor obscurities which may or may not be blemishes, because it is a little difficult to see exactly what the Bill is saying in some places. The first question is mud. The Bill is drafted as though the only way you can get minerals off the seabed is in the hard nodules. This is not the case. There is another deposit which is on the bottom of the deep oceans which is highly metalliferous and this is certain muds, principally to be found in the Red Sea, but also now in the deeps of the Pacific Ocean. They are just about as rich in metal ores as are the nodules. It is a little bit harder to get them because they are hot and bubbling and they tend to be at greater depths. Let me first of all ask, why does this Bill deal only with hard minerals, that is to say nodules, and not with metalliferous mud?
The answer may be that the best known deposit of hot metalliferous mud is in the Red Sea and it falls entirely within the exclusive economic zone of either Saudi Arabia or the Sudan; it is therefore, as it were, nationally justiciable in their courts and by their law, and therefore we need not bother about it. But the deposits which are being discovered at the moment in the Pacific Ocean, although they lie at greater depths, are not in anybody's exclusive economic zone. It seems to me that in a Bill designed to last at least eight years it would be good to cover them as well. It might be possible to think of an amendment to do this, though it is not something I would like to take the lead in doing without taking advice from the Government and friends in the industry.
Secondly, a small matter, but one that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, at any rate, is that to do with the penalties. If I read the Bill and the schedules rightly—and I am not sure I have read them rightly because to read the ping-pong match of meaning between the clause and the schedule is always rather difficult—if a company or consortium were to fail to pay its interim levy to the Government into the fund it could be fined but no director could be imprisoned. If, on the other hand, anyone, any little person, including particularly a Government inspector, were to disclose any information which he had obtained through the operation of this Bill he could be not only fined but also imprisoned. So we would have the situation where a man could be

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imprisoned for divulging that a great company had failed to carry out its duty in a way for which it was not liable to imprisonment. That slightly sticks in my gorge, if I have for the reading right. I think the House would be grateful for guidance from the Minister on this point.
I turn now to the surrounding dubieties. The United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea has at last virtually agreed upon a text. It is of immense complication and covers a very great many things besides deep sea mining. It will be months, if not a year, before that is signed. I do not know what the current signals are about this, but it is not going to be signed tomorrow, and it may very well not be signed before this Bill is passed. After that, to judge on the precedent of similar conventions, it will be about 10 years before it obtains enough ratifications to come into effect. That is the period this Bill is designed to plug.
The question the Government have to answer, and no doubt it is a question they have asked themselves with great heartsearching, is: why is deep sea mining deserving of being picked out of all the other things and passed into interim national legislation? The noble Earl has spoken of the need of the companies for some guarantee for their investment. Of course, they are very big companies and the guarantee the Government are able to offer is rather small so far, so it is not an enormous weight in the scales in favour of this Bill.
In my opinion and in that of many in this country it would be of very much more national benefit to pass into national law now the 12-mile limit on territorial waters which is in the UNCLOS text. It would be of greater national benefit if we were to pass a Bill taking port-state jurisdiction, which is in the UNCLOS text. It would be of considerable benefit, though I do not necessarily say greater, if any of the 57 environmental protection provisions in the UNCLOS text were now to be passed into national law. Are we quite sure that this one is so important that it has to be pulled out and rushed through, because it does risk upsetting the apple cart?—and this is my last and gravest doubt about the whole thing.
The noble Earl the Minister mentioned the 1970 Declaration of the United Nations which made the deep seabed the property of mankind. Two other documents have appeared since then. One is the Declaration of the Group of 77—that is the Declaration of the non-developed countries—in 1979, that it would not recognise unilateral national legislation on this subject, on the matter of deep sea mining. The deep sea mining is still, of course, the hottest topic and the most likely to prevent agreement on the UNCLOS situation. We have the Declaration of the Group of 77 that it will not recognise any national laws about that before the UNCLOS Convention is passed. The Declaration says that members of the 77 would contest the application of such laws in their own courts. It looks like a guarantee of non-reciprocity in the terms of this Bill and possible litigation going on and on. This could amount to a virtual boycott by a majority of countries in the world of the operation of any of these national laws, American, German, British and so on.
We had a second document in 1980, a perfectly
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specific declaration headed Legal position of the Group of 77 opposing the United States law. This declaration says that the UNCLOS text and all its terms are already customary international law and should become more and more customary and more and more binding until the convention comes formally into effect, and for that reason it specifically denies validity to the United States law, which one has already seen, which has been passed by Congress.
The main bone of contention is this—because everything can be brought down to practicalities in the end. It is the matter which appears in Clause 9 of the Bill; that is the levy, and specifically the level of the levy. Clause 9 sets out two different ways under which a company can calculate the amount of levy it has to pay on its operations: one on the value, agreed or estimated or deemed value, of the nodules as such, and the other on the value of the actual minerals obtained by refinement of the nodules. I think it is easy to see why companies want both. There are all kinds of advantages of convenience and indeed of justice in having both systems available. But those percentages—3·75 and 0·75—are copied from the American Act; they are identical with those which appear in the American Act.
The Group of 77 has alleged that the level calculated this way would work out a great deal lower than by the method of calculation given in the United Nations text, and that therefore interim national levies would be raking in only half of what the United Nations system would rake in, and would at the end of the day be turning over to the United Nations only half of what ought to be done in justice if the national levies are supposed to be a true stopgap. I understand that during the debates on the American Bill in Congress the administration spokesmen admitted that this was the case and that the shortfall of the American proposed level on the UNCLOS proposed level might be as much as 50 per cent.
My major political question to the Government is as follows: Are they sure that it is worth endangering the speedy signature by sufficient Governments of the UNCLOS text by going along with America and Germany in this matter? Of course, the first burden of responsibility must fall on the United States which took the first national step. It may be argued that Germany added little to that; that we add even less and, if France and Japan come in, that they will add still less. Are the Government sure that it is worth it? If by chance they were to have any doubts about this, on second thoughts, I believe that there is a course which the House could help them to take, which would remove quite a lot of the risk without going back on the whole principle of the Bill. The subsection actually setting out the calculations of the two methods of payment—Clause 9(1)—and anything that stems from that later in the Bill, but particularly Clause 9(1), should be deleted in Parliament and there should be substituted for it a provision that the Secretary of State could settle the level, settle the incidence of the levy, by regulation, by positive procedure order, subject to the approval of both Houses.
If one reads the Bill, it jumps to the eye that none of this will come into operation for eight years in any case, and since we have that much time leeway why not leave the amount a little vague in order to be able

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to say to the third world, "Well, you see, we are adopting the principle, but we are not among those who are determined that the interim national levy shall only be half as big as the United Nations' levy which you are looking forward to ". Let us leave it vague.
I am fortified in that suggestion by knowing that American Government spokesmen have said that their choice of level was partly chosen deliberately in order to bring pressure on the Group of 77 to lower the level which they are insisting on in the UNCLOS draft. I am not at all sure that that is a worthy aim, and if we were quietly to dissociate ourselves from it I think that it could only add to the chances of success.
I should like to make a few comments in conclusion. It is hard to know what to think about this proposal at this stage. The Government must also have found it extremely hard. It is the beginning of something which will, without doubt, become very big. As the cost of land-won minerals increases over the decades and centuries, so the cost of sea-won minerals will relatively decrease and we can expect them to fill an ever increasing part of the market in the lifetime of our children. It is not important to rush to detailed figures, to two decimal points, in the very first year of a new era. It is important to adopt sensible frameworks and to fill in some of the details later. Having said that, I do not need to say that I do not urge my friends to divide the House against the Bill, but I hope that it will be possible to improve it in Committee.
3.34 p.m.
Lord Erroll of Hale: My Lords, may I begin my contribution to this important and interesting debate by thanking the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, for his extremely lucid explanation of the Bill, which at first sight might seem to be very complicated, and also congratulate him for being able to do so in such a relatively short space of time.
I feel that at the outset I should declare an interest by reminding your Lordships that I am chairman of a company, Consolidated Gold Fields, which is a member of an international consortium exploring the possibilities of deep sea mining. I thought, therefore, that your Lordships might like to hear a small contribution from me on this very important topic.
Her Majesty's Government are to be congratulated on the part that they have played in UNCLOS over the last seven years. It is perhaps worth remembering that UNCLOS has been considering many matters relating to the law of the sea of which deep sea mining is only one, so it has not been spending seven years on just this one topic. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, pointed out, there are, in his opinion, other matters which deserved a higher priority. But I would simply say that the great thing is to get on with the job when one can, and if the Bill is now ready to come before your Lordships, why delay it?
Referring to the draft convention, Part XI of the draft convention leans heavily in favour of the Group of 77, as it is called—that is to say, the developing countries. Without modifications to the convention, there is really very little encouragement to invest in exploration or in the second stage, namely, exploitation. I need perhaps need hardly remind your Lord
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ships that this is not a bonanza situation like North Sea gas or oil: it is a very different story. As the noble Earl explained to your Lordships, it concerns at present an area in the deep Pacific between the mainland and Hawaii 10,000 feet deep or more—a shallow bed of nodules which have to be scooped or grabbed from the bottom of the sea. It was interesting to hear the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, refer to mud as an alternative, but as he pointed out the mud is bubbling away down at the bottom and it will be very difficult to bring it up in payable quantities.
We are also dealing only with certain minerals—those listed in the Bill—and not with a very wide range of minerals. Although the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, referred to the rising costs of mineral exploitation on land, the costs will rise similarly with exploitation on the seabed. There is mention of nickel, copper and cobalt. Very few minerals are in fact within the purview of the Bill or, indeed, within the purview of those who are actively engaged in exploration.
Perhaps I might refer for a moment to the consortium of which Consolidated Gold Fields is a member, in order to give noble Lords an idea of the sort of sums of money which are involved. It is a consortium consisting of six partners and so far already nearly 50 million dollars have been expended on exploration. My own company has already spent £2·4 million on what we have done so far.
What have we achieved so far? We have located several mineral sites which we believe are as good as, and possibly better than, those found by others. We have developed the technology of mining and processing to a point that it needs only confirmation and optimisation. But that will require expensive and large-scale test work, and that will involve a very big figure indeed. We have also investigated potential processing plant sites on the Eastern seaboard of the Pacific. But a great deal of further work is required, and that further work could cost in the nature of 150 million dollars to go forward to planning the necessary extraction process, to bringing forward a commercial operation, which we reckon, in order to optimise the plant and the extraction rate, would require an investment of about 1,500 million dollars in order to achieve the extraction of ore from about 3 million tonnes of nodules per year. I give those figures to your Lordships merely to give an idea of the sort of figures and dimensions which are involved.
In our opinion demand for nickel, upon which the economics are primarily dependent, is unlikely to justify a commercial nodule operation before about 1990. The possibility of low growth in demand for nickel, and of some lower-cost land-based sources for further nickel production, might indeed postpone nodule mining until around the year 2000. So, while this is an important and worthwhile venture, it is very much long-term and is beset with substantial and considerable risks. Nevertheless, I should like to say that I support the Bill, and particularly the form which it takes. It is essentially an enabling measure, which I would suggest to noble Lords is probably the best way of dealing with an ongoing situation of this sort.
There are several important considerations to be borne in mind. First, there is the importance of the reciprocity of national legislations. Perhaps I may

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go part of the way towards answering the noble Lord, Lord Kennet. Surely, whatever the Group of 77 may say, it is only right to proceed with some national legislation so that some work can go ahead, rather than to sit back, Government by Government, doing nothing and leaving those who are prepared to get into the practical work of exploration with no sort of framework with which to go ahead; bearing in mind that this is essentially a transitional arrangement until the convention is signed arid until United Nations legislation is operating.
I think that it is worthwhile 'to ask the noble Earl to which nation an international consortium would normally apply for a licence. If it is an American, Japanese and a British consortium, would it come under Japanese law, American law or British law? It would be helpful if that point could be included in the Bill at the Committee stage.
If I may say so, there is a very serious shortcoming in the Bill, which I generally support; it is what is called "protection investment policy", or, colloquially, "grandfather rights". In introducing the Bill, the noble Earl referred to the importance of transitional arrangements when the national law is superseded by what one might call United Nations law. But there is nothing at all in the Bill about this. It would be a severe handicap to a company or consortium proposing to go ahead further if it did not have some fairly clear assurance that such work would be protected and would not be thrown away when United Nations law takes over from the national law. At the moment, there is very little information on this; indeed, the United Kingdom Bill is entirely silent on it.
As regards the United Kingdom levy, which is dealt with in Clause 9, of course the size of the levy is open to argument. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, has advocated the higher levy proposed by the United Nations.
Lord Kennet: My Lords, on a point of correction, I advocated deleting any level of levy and leaving it to the Secretary of State to propose it, by order, later.
Lord Erroll of Hale: My Lords, I beg the noble Lord's pardon; that is quite correct. But I had the impression that he was in favour of the United Nations levy of more than double the figure proposed in the Bill. By all means, have a levy; but if it is too big, it will act as a severe deterrent to exploration and exploitation. Therefore, at this early stage, if there is to be a figure—and, personally, I should prefer to see a figure so that we know what we are working on—then let us make it a low figure, at any rate to begin with.
Even so, there is one matter, which is perhaps a Committee point, which is worth raising at this stage. It seems unreasonable to charge interest on a levy which arises only when formerly unused material is in fact processed and sold. Indeed, if that situation were to arise over a period of several years, the back interest might be such as to prevent the worthwhile extraction of the final mineral from unused residues.
Again, I revert to what I call the "grandfather rights". I think that it is most important that we ensure that any licences granted under this Bill must continue under any United Nations convention which
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may ultimately supersede this Bill. The more this can be written into the Bill—and I appreciate that it is perhaps difficult to put in legal terms—the better it will be for the success of any operations in the meantime.
Lord Drumalbyn: My Lords, if my noble friend will forgive me, in his view what would happen if licences had been given by more than one country for the same staked-out area?
Lord Erroll of Hale: My Lords, that is really a question for the noble Earl to answer, but from my own reading of the Bill I think that there would be reciprocal arrangements to ensure that there was no overlapping of licences. However, I would prefer the noble Earl to answer the noble Lord's question.
If this Bill becomes an Act, in present circumstances the consortium—and I can speak only for the consortium to which I have referred—would be unlikely to go ahead with exploitation as distinct from exploration in advance of a United Nations convention and in advance of us knowing exactly what was in that convention.
It is very important to understand the point of view of the Group of 77. I do not want noble Lords to think that I am hostile to their aims and aspirations. Nevertheless, it is only right to say that although the prospects ahead are extremely interesting, they are not dazzling. This is long-term and involves a great deal of hard work and the expenditure of a great deal of money which must be sunk in such risk ventures, with possible returns only many years later. It is the developed countries which will carry these risks and which will do the work. Therefore, 1 would urge all those who have the best interests of the Group of 77 at heart—and, indeed, the best interests of those who wish to exploit natural resources without damaging the environment—to bear in mind that they should not make the conditions too onerous or too hard, for otherwise, if those conditions become too onerous, the nodules will stay where they are, at the bottom of the ocean; and on their own the Group of 77 will never bring them to the surface.
3.46 p.m.
Lord Ritchie-Calder: My Lords, I very much doubt whether we are entitled to be discussing this Bill at all. Noble Lords will see that we are talking about the deep seabed, which means:
"that part of the bed of the high seas in respect of which sovereign rights in relation to the natural resources of the seabed are neither exercisable by the United Kingdom nor recognised by Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom as being exercisable by another Sovereign Power …".
As the noble Earl has pointed out, we are talking about what we define as the "common heritage of mankind "; that is to say, the resources of the seabed beyond the limits of national jurisdiction. We are now proposing to claim, in some way, a national jurisdiction over something for which we do not even possess a right to recognise. I say this with some feeling and some force because I have been involved in the question of the manganese nodules or the hard minerals, as we now call them, on the seabed since 1965, when they were recognised as something which had been revealed by the International Geophysical

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Year; and, indeed, by the Scripps Expedition during the I.G.Y. which took place very much in the Pacific area where we now recognise that these minerals are abundant: there was viable evidence which showed the seabed more or less cobbled with these manganese nodules which had been generally regarded as in scarce supply.
It is now obvious that we can recover them and it is obvious that they are economic. At that time some of us realised that these commercial considerations would produce exactly the kind of arguments that are being advanced today; that is, that there would be a smash and grab, and some of us foresaw—and I still foresee this—the equivalent of the Congress of Berlin, at which the great powers divided up Africa and grabbed the resources of Africa. En the same way, we shall expropriate the common heritage of mankind beyond the limits of national jurisdiction.
We have been wrestling with this problem in the Law of the Sea Conference to the point where the question of the recovery of minerals from the seabed has now become not only most important, but probably has culminated in the question whether we shall ever reach an agreement on the law of the sea, with all its many other aspects, if we fail to restore it. I want to be very frank with your Lordships. This is part of a game which we have watched develop over the last few years led, if I may say so, by the United States, who have got very restless and fretful about the delays in the law of the sea discussions—and so did we all. Meanwhile there was wildcatting. There was a great deal of activity involved in going out into places, furtively in many cases, to find whether there were these resources which were capable of commercial exploitation.
We have been waiting, as somebody said, or mentioned, the Committee of 77 which is now a Committee of 137 developing countries. They have been watching with misgiving, or at least suspiciously, the activities of first of all these free enterprises, and now those who are trying to find and get governmental support for these activities. Involved in this is not only the question of who are going to be licensed to go ahead if we ever get an international agreement under an international authority, but there is something which has not been mentioned, and certainly not involved in this Bill; that is what we call "the Enterprise".
The Enterprise involves not only the people who have now got the money and resources and, if I may say so, the avarice; not only those who have the capacity to exploit; but the Enterprise would make it possible for the developing countries through the United Nations, through the international bodies, to go alongside and develop areas of the seabed for themselves. That would be one way of meeting Lord Errol of' Hale's point about "the 77 could not go it alone". Of course they could not. They are looking, and we are all looking, for the kind of material resources and expertise which it is perfectly true only the highly developed countries possess.
What surprises me at this late hour in the Law of the Sea Conference and certainly coming into this House at this moment, is this Bill, in the sense that I do not see that there is any greater urgency, or indeed that it affects the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, at
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all. If we do not get agreement on the law of the sea in the next session in March, then we are in for a bleak period, and not only in terms of the development of the hard minerals but in every other aspect as well, because we arc looking for agreements which involve in every respect the co-operation of the less developed countries.
The common heritage of mankind is just that. It does not mean that the capacity to exploit or develop the sea belongs only to coastal states or to the people who have the capacity to develop the resources of the seas. It belongs to the landlocked countries; it belongs to the less developed coastal countries; and eventually the benefit should belong to everyone in the world. There can be only one way of coping with that, and that is through a genuine trusteeship of these resources.
What we have been doing over the years, if I may say so with some bitterness, is eroding the whole concept of the common heritage, not only by the kind of thing we are doing now through querying how it is going to be handled, but by the fact that the whole extension of the economic zones and the extension of the Continental Shelf has meant a shrinking of what is "beyond the limits of natural jurisdiction ".
We are now faced with the question, who is going to decide? It is not a function of the United States Congress; it is not a function of the Parliament of this country; it is not at the discretion of the Federal Government of Germany; and it is not going to be at the discretion of anyone who likes to pass the kind of laws we arc passing here now—by which we are going to exercise what? We are presumably going to license something we are not entitled to license. It does not belong to us. It does not in any sense belong to us.
We are not going to distinguish what the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, mentioned. Who is in fact being licensed? Who is involved in this? If you have a consortium of five different nationalities how do you provide, or legislate in whatever way you think, for the exercise of some sort of control over your nationals, as it were, within these consortia? To whom do you turn for this licence? How do you secure it? You can only do it by reciprocal arrangements, which simply means that they are going to have something which is already in evidence, which already exists, and it is called the "group of the like-minded". The like-minded, I may say, are the countries, mainly European and American and Japan, who have the capacity to go in with the technical processes to do just this, and who are now in a sense trying to create a treaty within a treaty. Here, within these terms today, we are aiding and abetting. We are helping to create a treaty within a treaty.
I assure you, from a long experience of the Law of the Sea Conference and of what goes on there, that we are building up a reaction which we are going to regret. We are in fact going to create a situation in which we have less chance as from March onwards of securing agreement on the law of the sea because we have aroused and substantiated the suspicions of the less developed countries, and the countries that will go along with them, in the decisions about the law of the sea.
I cannot see why at this moment we have to bring this matter forward when, as I say, we are within sight of agreement. We could have got agreement if we

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had not in fact poisoned chances of getting it by our own actions. If we had got an agreement we could be discussing then what we would do in the interim: the interim in that case being after the agreement. How long does it take to create the machinery once we have the agreements in principle?
I have a lot of other things to say about this Bill, which I do not like. There is very little recognition in the Bill of the enormous implications to the environment of the indiscriminate development of deep sea mining. We do not know. It is not a question of pretending. It is true that we do not know what the environmental consequences might be, first of all, through the disturbances of the seabed and in other ways beyond that into ancillary activities in which you can have—and this Bill indicates you can have it—the refinement of the deep sea minerals at sea.
What do we do with the waste? We have it here in the Bill. We are going to have to do something about the waste. We do not know what to do about the waste, because we have no idea what the nature of that waste is going to do in the food layers of the sea. At this moment we should be going very tentatively, very carefully, and seeing what to do. We have not written into this Bill—and I have read it carefully and I know a good deal about the background—the precautions which we should impose, if we are going to get away with it at all, on the people we are going to license.
I do not want to say much more. I am rather worked up about this, because it is something which some of us have been watching with great misgivings over a number of years, and not just in terms of the exploitation. In the terms we are talking about now, this is going to be another carve-up—as with the Continent of Africa—of resources which should be available to everybody. We are neglecting the precautions we should be writing in to prevent the misapplication of technology in the sea, remembering above all the risks to the last of our great resources, the oceans.
I conclude by reiterating what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, about the less developed countries and the concern that he felt about them. Indeed we should all be concerned about them, as they are concerned about themselves, because, as is clear from the Minister's statement, we are looking for the kind of resources which in other forms exist in deposits in the land masses of those countries. When, therefore, they talk about the resources of the sea bottom, it is not something from which they will just secure a dividend; it is an alternative which is positively threatening their capacity to earn a living. These considerations have not been adequately recognised. We are dealing with the last of the earth's great resources and we should be facing up to this challenge in the way it deserves, with the positive development of those resources for posterity.
4.1 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Gowrie for introducing the Bill so clearly and concisely. I welcome the Bill as a temporary enabling measure. We are considering new sources of certain raw materials which will be needed in the world. Some scientists think there are more of some of these important elements in nodules on the
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deep seabed than are available for mining on land— that is, in all the continents of the world put together—and that is good news for the human race in the long term.
It has been agreed internationally that in areas of sea beyond the jurisdiction of states these minerals are the common heritage of the whole world. However, the formulation of an international regime with institutions, procedures and finance is taking time. Sessions of the United Nations Law of the Sea Conference every few months have produced agreed drafts on most of the other subjects—and there are many subjects being discussed at that conference by all the countries which are members of the United Nations, and there is general consensus on those—but agreement has not yet been reached on provisions for the proposed régime for winning mineral-bearing nodules.
This negotiation is going on in Committee One of the conference and there is still much to be worked out and agreed. Before then, consortia from nations with most advanced technology are likely to be ready to start. Fortunately, that includes the United Kingdom. Exploration is therefore to be licensed by the nations concerned for their nationals in co-ordination with each other. As my noble friend pointed out, there is to be no exploitation—that is, no mining—before 1988 at the earliest. The Bill also has provisions for a fund which will be transferred to an international organisation in due course when there is United Nations' agreement and that enters into force for the United Kingdom. The Bill is consistent with the main points already agreed at the United Nations conference while avoiding delay.
Time has been passing with disappointing rates of progress and this is illustrated by the fact that we had a debate on 19th May 1976, initiated by me on a Wednesday, which was over four and a half years ago. The position on deep sea mining, which was part of the discussion of the law of the sea in that debate, as described in columns 1403–04 of Hansard in particular, is much the same now as it was then. Progress is slow, but that is not altogether surprising because the elements of an international régime are important and complex and it may take another seven years to complete the agreement and set up the international institutions, and no doubt that is why the year 1988 has been agreed upon in this legislation and in the American legislation. I hope it will not take as long as that, but I would tell the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, that it could take even longer.
The world should not be denied this new additional source of certain materials. The preparations for exploration and development will also take years, but the exploration and the preparations for that can be started within the next few years, as my noble friend Lord Erroll pointed out. The Bill provides the United Kingdom part of an interim arrangement which conforms with the principles of the scheme before the United Nations conference and does not prejudice decisions on a permanent régime. Moreover, there will be money in the international kitty earlier than there otherwise would be. With exploration going ahead and not being held up, the wealth from the oceans' floors will be available to the world probably several years sooner than it otherwise would have been.

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The countries which are not able to take part in the mining, because of the advanced technology and resources required, together with the developing nations, will benefit through the related funds arising from levies on the minerals mined. I note that the same formula has been adopted for the levy rate in this Bill as appeared in the United States legislation last summer, and while listening to what the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, said about that and his suggestion for allowing the rate to be governed by orders presented by Ministers, I would point out that at this stage it would seem natural for the rate which we should adopt to be the same as the one in the American legislation.
During the debate in May 1966 in your Lordships' House some of us were pointing out that the most urgent subject at that time was fishing. Indeed it was, and action was taken before the end of that year, not only by this country but by the other leading fishing countries of the world. The action taken on sea fisheries was taken in anticipation of the Law of the Sea Conference reaching agreement and finally a treaty entering into force. But the maritime and fishing nations of the world extended their fishing limits to 200 miles at the end of 1976 and the beginning of 1977. Our own legislation was passed through quickly; it was introduced by the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Peart, and I did everything possible from the then Opposition Front Bench to assist him in getting that legislation through.
As a result, our legislation entered into force on 1st January 1977. That fishing legislation has not yet been enshrined in an international treaty—the Law of the Sea Conference still continues—but there was general consensus on the question of extending fishery limits. As a result, the 200-mile fishing limit is now effectively in force throughout the world. All the principal fishing nations, including the Soviet Union, accept the 1977 change, so that change has been made in international law de facto in anticipation of what is expected to be in the treaty in due course. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, that that is an example of where a subject has been picked out over three years ago, even though people at the time were saying that it would cause trouble and antagonism in the conference. It has been accepted internationally, and there has not been antagonism in the conference. There have been difficulties, but not provoked by that. There was agreement among the nations and it was carried into effect.
As regards deep sea mining, the first is likely to be exploration in the Pacific. There must be some control by Governments working together. What is required is a basic licensing system, as in this Bill, with the recognition of licences issued by other Governments. In this way duplication and confusion can be avoided; and firms lacking the necessary resources and technology cannot stake a notional claim and sterilise a site or block.
Not only will the world need these minerals from the ocean floor; the United Kingdom will need them, too. British industry has the capacity, as my noble friend Lord Errol of Hale, has pointed out, and we can play a significant part in winning them. At a time of world recession we can view with some optimism this new opportunity for action in due course and for expansion.
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Development of this infant new industry should produce jobs in the United Kingdom and work for British companies at home and abroad.
It cannot be in the United Kingdom's interests to allow delay by default or inaction. Furthermore the first exploration licensing by this and similar legislation will constitute a pilot scheme, which can be helpful to the working of the permanent scheme which is to follow. Consortia, and United Kingdom firms in international consortia, will require the assurance that they can work with a licence on an allocated site without interruption and without others contesting their allocation; and this assurance should be over an appropriate period.
The financial institutions whose support will also be required if this work is to be carried out, will also need confidence from that assurance before money is invested. The question which I should like to put to my noble friend about this enabling Bill is on the co-ordination between the licensing governments; and it has already been touched on by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn in his intervention. In Clause 3 there is a reference to reciprocating countries, which are presumably the other countries which will have domestic legislation and issue licences. But there is the question that my noble friend Lord Errol has asked as to which of the members of a consortium coming from different countries should be the applicant? Should the applicant be the operator? Should there be more than one applicant in regard to different countries? That is the type of question that needs to be clarified.
Then if applications for the same site are made to different governments by their nationals, but for different operations and from different consortia, how will such possible conflicts be settled? It is clear that very close consultation and co-operation will be needed between the reciprocating countries, and I hope that my noble friend will be able to tell us more, either today or at a later stage.
The noble Lords, Lord Kennet and Lord Ritchie-Calder, were worried that the Group of 77 at the United Nations' conference would not recognise domestic legislation which anticipated the treaty. The noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, was also worried that this Bill might antagonise some of the countries at the conference. I suggest, and I hope, that as a temporary measure those countries will accept the Bill, and its counterparts in other countries, in the same way that they have come to accept the fishing legislation which has also pre-empted the final draft agreement of the conference.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, mentioned metalliferous mud, and referred to the main area where that has been found—the Red Sea. I understand that the states on each side of the Red Sea have made sensible agreements outside their territorial waters, but anticipating international agreement at the United Nations' conference on EEZs—exclusive economic zones. The Group of 77 should accept that as a sensible arrangement in anticipation of the final agreement and the entry into force of the treaty.
The sea areas of the world beyond states' jurisidiction are somewhat like the moon; they do not belong to any individual nation; but that need not stop or delay exploration. There is a store of minerals on the deep

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sea bed waiting to be won by man and put to good use. That store is likely to be of more interest and benefit to the human race than any material brought from the moon. This is a new frontier which we must be ready to move across. The Bill is a sensible interim measure to enable the United Kingdom Government and British firms to play a useful role.
4.16 p.m.
Lord Energlyn: My Lords, I, too, should like to congratulate the noble Earl on the way in which he introduced the Bill. He has given your Lordships a very vivid picture of the backcloth to what lies hidden beneath the waves that cover the largest part of this earth. There you have a hidden world of wealth; the only part of this earth from which wealth can be derived on a replenishable basis. The sudden importance of manganese nodules and suchlike marine nodules became of international significance and made necessary Bills of this kind only when the far-sighted people of the world realised that we are moving into a period in which there are certain substances of great strategic importance; and manganese, cobalt and nickel are three good examples.
With your Lordships' permission, I should like to suggest to Her Majesty's Government that this Bill might be followed by another Bill with a title relating to submarine mining of those areas within our jurisdiction, because, if one looks at the areas that are accessible to us, and are mineable, one sees that there are very few of them which contain the attractive deposits that lie at great depths in the Red Sea and the Pacific. On the other hand, within the areas which are still under our jurisdiction there are areas of deep sea mining; depth is really a relative matter, and it might perhaps interest your Lordships to look at that picture. For example, in the Bristol Channel we have an almost unique situation in the realm of sedimentation, where minerals have not moved from the point into which they were discharged for the past 20 million years, and they have been sorted and resorted. From surveys that we have done we can show that per acre of the sea floor beyond places such as St. Ives there is as much tin per acre of those sands as there is in Malaya.
All that is quite academic up to a point, until one realises that the tin could become an exceedingly important strategic metal to us. It is absolutely vital to the Americans. We have in being on a laboratory scale the technology of abstracting these tin minerals from sands of this kind; and not just abstracting them as cassiterite minerals, but taking them straight into the metal tin. The technology is now in embryo, but is ready for commercial exploitation.
Turning perhaps to other strategic metals involved in submarine nodules, one thinks principally of manganese. We have the manganese shales exposed in the mountains overlooking the Barmouth estuary, which have been eroded for millions of years. We have an estuary full of mud which probably, if exploited, has a source of manganese—and, nay! of gold and other metals which are worth recovering. Is this deep-sea mining? It is certainly marine mining.
One then turns to the other part of this Bill, which talks about hard mineral resources as being only those things related to the superficial deposits upon the sea
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floor—namely, the nodules. With your Lordships' permission, I should like to remind you of the process of modulation. Nodulation is a process whereby chemical compounds are attracted to centres of crystallisation, and the conditions in certain parts of the Pacific are such that this happens fairly rapidly. But it can be induced. It can be induced by scrap iron in the sea. We have knowledge of certain types of minerals which will form kernels which will accrete manganese, cobalt and vanadium from the sea. In fact, at the end of World War I a German professor set out to extract gold from the North Sea, and he nearly succeeded in producing enough to have a look at the war debt. Today we know far more about the processing of dilute solutions, because we have been studying marine farming. We know, for example, that the squid can abstract vanadium in an immensely rapid manner. We now know the biochemistry of that process, and it can be extrapolated into an industrial process.
My Lords, again, 1 make no apology for using this Bill as an excuse to present Her Majesty's Government with some of these views, because if you are talking about enterprise zones then the sea is your greatest enterprise zone. In the middle 'thirties we owned 30 per cent. of the known mineral resources of the earth. Why?—because we were the foremost mining engineers and geologists in the world. We knew what we were looking for, and we knew how to exploit it. Why not now set out and repeat that example, and be the finest under-sea technologists in the world? We have it within our capacity. We have the young men thirsting for adventure and looking for attractive things to do. Here is a big area.
It may sound as though I am treating your Lordships to a lecture on geochemistry. I make no excuse for that, but let me also put this point of view to your Lordships. We have become tremendously expert, and have gained the admiration of the world, in building oil platforms. We can send them out horizontally into the North Sea, tip them up on end and put them on a borehole a yard in diameter with absolute accuracy. These are the pitheads of marine mining in the future. Let me give your Lordships one immediate example of how these could be used. During the latter part of the 'thirties there was a search for a missing bomber, and eventually parts of it were discovered in St. Bride's Bay, Pembrokeshire. I was involved in that, and the geophysical results we obtained indicated that beyond St. David's Head, a matter of about 15 to 20 miles out, there is unquestionably a deposit of magnetite as big as that which occurs in Sweden.
My Lords, what a venture! Take one of these platforms, and there you form your new mine. The problems of British Steel so far as rich iron ore is concerned would be solved for the next 50 to 100 years. To take another example, we know that beyond Land's End there are very rich veins containing rather exotic minerals in addition to tin. These are now accessible by using platform construction for under-sea pitheads. This, I forecast, is the mining of the future, because it is on the sea floor that the new mineral deposits of the world are to be found. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Erroll, would agree, his company is constantly

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looking at the sea floor and any accessible deposits which can be made available to the mining engineer.
A lot of these political thoughts about stretegic metals and so on are very good, but they only emphasise one thing: that is, that there are those who have and there are those who have not. This country must see to it that it has the strategic metals that will enable its industry to prosper, will enable its industry to thrive, and will enable its industry to diversify. For example, we do not produce any cobalt in this country at the moment, and if we were denied cobalt tomorrow there would be a tremendous closure of areas of industry in this country. The minerals of today and, particularly, the minerals of tomorrow are not the source of crude metals: they are now the source of exotic substances, and, in particular, catalysts. So that an ounce of metal today is very often more valuable than a ton of that metal even 15 years ago. Take cobalt. Five years ago you could have had a ton of cobalt for about £2,000 or £3,000 a ton. Today, if you go into the market you will have to pay between £20,000 and £30.000 a ton for it. Why?—because of its strategic importance in the chemical industry.
So I make no apologies to the noble Earl. I congratulate him and his Government on introducing this Bill, and I hope this will he the first Bill which will take us once again not on the seas but under the sea, into the world of mining of tomorrow.
4.27 p.m.
The Earl of Cowrie: My Lords, it is, I think, inevitable, given the way our interesting Constitution works, that from time to time this House should entertain feelings of inferiority to another place. But I must say that I do not think we need do so this afternoon because we have introduced this Bill into this House and I think that, however interesting the Second Reading debate in another place may be when it gets there, it will be very unlikely to include contributions from somebody so expert in mining engineering as the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, who has just spoken; or somebody who is so involved in the practical logistics of the exploitation of mineral wealth of this kind as my noble friend Lord Erroll; or, indeed, somebody who has spent such time and studied so closely issues connected with the law of the sea as the noble Lord, Lord Kennet—and may I take this opportunity to welcome him back to the Labour Front Bench, which he used to adorn both as a Labour Minister and as an Opposition spokesman? In the latter capacity, certainly, I hope he remains in his present position.
I welcome the general reaction that has been given to this Bill. I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, but I think it was a bit negative and certainly in strong contrast to the spirit of adventure which was summoned up by the noble Lord, Lord Energlyn, and by my noble friends Lord Campbell of Croy and Lord Erroll of Hale. Certainly that is the kind of taste in the mouth (to adapt a phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Kennet) that I hoped the introduction of the Bill into this House, and its Second Reading would in fact leave us with.
I think it has been a real debate, in that many of the points which individual noble Lords made to me as the Minister sponsoring the Bill were actually taken up and
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answered by other noble Lords who spoke; so I do not think I shall go over the general considerations again. However, I would urge noble Lords on all sides of the House to read particularly the contributions of my two noble friends on the Privy Counsellors' Bench, because I think they made very expertly and eloquently some of the general points that I should like to make. I shall therefore try to deal merely with the individual questions which were put to me.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, asked me whether countries other than America and Germany were considering a national legislation. We understand that the French are likely to bring in a Bill of their own shortly and that the Belgians and Italians are in process of preparing legislation and may bring in their legislation shortly as well. The noble Lord asked why the Bill dealt only with hard minerals. He really answered his own question. My advice is that, as he said, the most important reserve of metalliferous mud is in the Red Sea, which comes within exclusive economic zones and areas of national jurisdiction. My advice is that there are no muds of economic interest elsewhere although within our own area of national jurisdiction the noble Lord. Lord Energlyn, has drawn our attention to deposits which no doubt we should investigate, but not, in fairness to this Bill, under the limits of this Bill. I would remind the House that the Bill is a temporary provision and is not intended to deal with all possible long-term developments in undersea mining, interesting and important though these are.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, asked why there was liability to imprisonment for disclosing information as distinct from fines only for other offences. This is apparently standard Home Office policy and Clause 13 follows statutory precedent. It underlines the particular need to protect the commercially-confidential information.
The noble Lord Lord Kennet asked why deep sea mining was being picked out for national legislation of this kind, and, in a sense, what the hurry was. That question, I think, was echoed by his noble friend Lord Ritchie-Calder. That is another point which I think was most effectively answered by my noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale when he pointed out the very high development costs and very long lead times to any profit being seen as a result of that research and development. Deep sea mining is at a crucial stage and substantial investments are at stake. Without some action now, this valuable development will slow down or cease altogether. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy gave us some painful illustrations of the delays which have already taken place. May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, and to Lord Ritchie-Calder especially in talking about the interests of the Group of 77—which we must bear in mind for we consider this the common heritage of all mankind, the underdeveloped as well as the developed countries—that surely the developing world has an enormous interest in the continued growth and wealth creation taking place in the developed world? Without that development and if you look at the effects which the present recession in the West and the developed countries is having on the Third World, I think it would be shortsighted of them if they objected to our trying to get on with development as quickly as we can, albeit

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within the context of seeking the kinds of international agreement that I have mentioned. There is, too, the earnest of good faith implicit in the existence of the levy in the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennet, asked why the levy was set so low. Again, as my noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale has said, the companies regard a higher rate as a significant disincentive. We will look at the proposal for the rate to be set in regulations; but it is not, in our view, in the companies' interest to be faced with further uncertainty of this kind, given the context that the whole of the legislation may in any case change after 1988.
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale asked why interest was charged on deferred payment of the levy. As he himself said, this is a matter for discussion in the Committee; but 1 can assure him that the provisions in Clause 9 would not put miners operating under United Kingdom licences at a disadvantage compared with those operating under licences of other countries. In an interjection, my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn wondered what would happen if more than one country licences the same site. I think that this is a difficulty, but I would remind my noble friend that we arc talking about an area of some three million square miles and five kilometres deep and we are also talking about a very preliminary stage of exploration rather than exploitation. I do not imagine, certainly in the testing and exploration stage, that there would be a great deal of clash of interests. It is intended that by recognising other countries as reciprocating states, as the Bill does, we can avoid such damaging conflicts; nevertheless, my noble friend's interjection directs our minds to the importance of continuing to work with the United Nations to attain international regulation and agreement of the kind which will ultimately make altogether redundant licensing legislation of this kind on a national level.
My noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale asked about "grandfather rights"—which I take to mean the absence from the Bill of provisions which protect rights acquired under it, in the sense of the perpetuation of licences and so on. The point here is that when the convention takes over, then the United Kingdom as well as other national reciprocating licences will no longer be the relevant means of control. That is why the Bill, in Clause 18(3) provides, as I have already suggested, for its repeal after that time. The noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder asked about progress at the United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea. The Bill should not jeopardise our chances of making progress at the UNLOSC. We should remember that substantial progress was made at the last session of the conference despite the introduction of United States and Federal Republic of Germany legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, asked about the effect on the environment. I do not think he quite took up the point I made in my original statement to the effect that we are conscious that the full effects on the marine environment are as yet unknown, and that is why there are a number of provisions in the Bill permitting regulations and licence conditions to be introduced by order to safeguard the environment. We think that it would be counter-productive to lay down unchangeable rules at this stage. We need to keep a close watch on development and to monitor
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the effects of any exploration activities to expand our knowledge in this field. The noble Lord was perhaps talking on the assumption that, within a few moments of this legislation passing, so to speak, an immense spate of activity would descend upon this area of the ocean. On reflection. I think he will see that that will not be the case.
Nevertheless, that brings me to the final point which was underlined by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy. There are great possibilities here; they are quite a long way off but unless we get moving now it is likely that the possibilities will recede. We do not consider that this legislation in some way permits us to drag our feet at the United Nations Conference. We shall pursue our efforts there as vigorously as ever. We think that in a modest way the Bill comes into line with competitor countries and gives a series of national frameworks within which these big decisions and large sums of money may be invested—obviously in the interests of this country and of this economy hut, surely, also in the interests of both the developing and the developed world.
On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Energy Conservation Bill [H.L.]
4.40 p.m.
The Earl of Cowrie: My Lords, 1 beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Gowrie.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD DERWENT in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Power to prohibit supply of certain appliances without type approval mark or approved operating and maintenance instructions]:
Lord Tanlaw Lord Tanlaw moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line II, leave out ("gas-powered").
The noble Lord said: It may be convenient if I speak to Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5 and 8 because they all cover the point that I wish to make. I hope that these will be considered as constructive amendments, which are intended to retain the Government's wide powers, while still allowing compliance with the EEC gas afppliances directive. This has been achieved by leaving in subsection (3) while at the same time broadening the description—
The Earl of Gowrie: I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, for giving way. I am entirely in the hands of the Committee, but the noble Lord said that he wanted to take Amendments Nos. 1, 3, 5 and 8 together, and since these amendments are effectively about the scope of the Bill in relation to particular appliances, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, would also like us to debate his amendments, Nos. 4 and 6, in this block and then we can take the Government's amendment, which is largely formal, separately. If we had a general debate on Clause I, would that be convenient?
Lord Strabolgi: Yes, we agree to that.
Lord Tanlaw: I am very grateful for what has been said by the noble Earl, that we can have a general discussion, as the amendments are relevant one to another. I think it will be seen that in suggesting the removal from the Bill of the term "gas-powered", I am attempting to retain the wide powers which I believe Her Majesty's Government are intending to seek under this clause. It is easier if I explain that by removing the words "gas-powered" paragraph (b) will merely refer to appliances. The reference to a heat generator in paragraph (a) covers all heat generators of all kinds discussed on Second Reading of the Bill. Paragraph (b) covers all appliances whether gas-powered, electrically-powered or whatever. On paragraph (c), the object is to show that any of these appliances which have any control devices may also come under this clause of the Bill. I do not see any value in specifying different types of heat generators under this clause, especially when there are other parts of the Bill which still give the Government full powers to bring in the EEC gas appliances directive and any other powers that they may seek on individual types of appliances not covered under the term "heat generator".
Therefore I feel that one could ask the question: "When is a heat generator not a heat generator?" As the Bill stands at the moment, one is almost inclined to say: "When it is a gas appliance". This is not the intention of the Bill. It is meant to cover all heat generators, and the Government have power under the term "any heat generator". Therefore, why over-emphasise the matter merely to bring in the EEC gas appliances directive, which can be covered under other clauses of this Bill?
There is another area in which it is dangerous, while the Government are seeking these wide powers, to bring in the term "gas appliance". I feel that it is rather like a Pandora's box. Gas appliances cover a far wider term in my belief—and perhaps the noble Earl will be able to confirm this—than is intended in the Bill. I do not see how or why a gas-powered heat generator which is used for defying gravity, as some people use them in terms of a hot air balloon, should come under Clause 1 of the Bill. I am not sure whether gas appliances do not perhaps even apply to batteries of certain sorts. I think that there are too many dangers of being too specific in Clause 1 of the Bill.
My second amendment, by removing the words "gas-powered" and inserting the word "heating", also assists the noble Earl in his amendment which therefore embraces solar panels. I should like, in introducing this amendment, to open up a discussion on the whole area of what are the wide powers of the Bill. Hopefully, the amendments which I have submitted will assist the Government in retaining these wide powers, whereas at the moment I believe that with the wording as now written in the Bill, these powers are being reduced. I beg to move.
Lord Strabolgi: I should like to support these amendments and also, as the Committee have given permission, to speak to Amendments Nos. 4 and 6 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, and myself. Amendment No. 4 would give
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the Secretary of State powers to specify energy efficiency standards for domestic electrical appliances. As the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, has said, at present the Bill provides only for efficiency standards for space and water heaters and gas appliances. The amendment would extend the Bill's scope to cover such appliances as refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers, ovens, irons, washing machines, tumble driers and television sets.
The Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill makes clear that the Government will also be enabled, if they wish, to deal with space and water heaters which are not covered by the directives. So there is, I would submit, a precedent for this and a case for extending the scope of the Bill to cover other important domestic appliances of this kind. Therefore I support the amendments.
The Earl of Gowrie: I am grateful to both noble Lords for consenting that these amendments on Clause 1, except the Government amendment, should be taken together. All these amendments have in common that they are about extending the scope of the Bill to cover new categories of appliance. The Government have given very careful consideration to which appliances should be covered by the Bill. We are mindful of the fact that the costs of operating a system of type approval of appliances will fall on industry because of course type approval bodies will charge fees.
In most cases, these costs will inevitably then be passed on to the customer. We have therefore tried to obviate the ill-effects of this, while preserving the principle of the Bill, by seeking powers only in those areas where it seems likely that the system of standards and type approval could effect a significant improvement in energy efficiency. We have decided to include all types of appliance intended for space and water heating, and to include within that category appliances not sold direct to the public but those which come into our homes and factories by means of professional installers, thus inhibiting the effect of market forces in raising efficiency.
They account for a major element of national fuel consumption. There are practical ways in our view in which efficiency standards can be set. Type approval should therefore in this way prove cost-effective. Appliances such as refrigerators, washing machines, et cetera, are sold direct to the public and there market forces can work more normally. Energy efficiency is already—as we know from our own lives as consumers—becoming a selling point in many appliances. They use a much smaller proportion of national energy consumption and are subject to continual technical change and improvement.
The effect of using the powers proposed in Lord Strabolgi's Amendment No. 4 or those in Lord Tanlaw's Amendments Nos. 1 to 3 would, in our view, be to impose unnecessary cost burdens on manufacturers, and ultimately therefore consumers, without the prospect that it would prove practical to define standards that even kept up with technical progress or that type approval would be a cost-effective way of saving energy. I am not saying that the Government are indifferent to the energy efficiency of those appliances—and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, mentioned a number of them—which are not covered by the Bill.

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We have taken careful note of the views of those who argue that the energy efficiency of household appliances and lighting can be raised. We continue to discuss this subject with representatives of manufacturers and consumers, and in doing so we press for improvements in energy efficiency where this is practical and cost-effective.
But it is our view that, by concentrating on all types of appliance intended for space and water heating which involve installation, we are achieving a significant energy conservation objective without, as I say, interfering in the natural pressure towards greater conservation which is operating effectively in the market at present. That is why I advise the Committee to resist these amendments.
4.51 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: This is, in effect, a very small Bill. It has plenty to be modest about, but it is not very modest, in the sense that it has the very grand title of "Energy Conservation Bill". The noble Earl the Minister will note that there is an amendment down later to change the Title of the Bill to something which is more suitable, having regard to what the Government have included in it.
I do not think that we should underestimate the problems that energy conservation and energy use will cause in the course of the next 20 years or so. The use of the kind of appliances which we are trying to put into this Bill to expand its scope is forecast by various bodies— I think without much query as to its accuracy—to be likely to increase quite a lot over that period of time. The noble Earl the Minister quite rightly said that the various appliances which we are seeking to put into this Bill are a smaller part of the energy requirements than what the Bill mainly deals with, but, none the less, they are still a very important part.
In 1975, the various appliances which we are attempting to put into this Bill accounted for 38 per cent. of the United Kingdom's domestic electrical consumption and an even higher percentage during peak periods, which are the times for which the Central Electricity Generating Board produces the power. Therefore, the more appliances you have at peak periods, the greater is the capacity which is needed to be produced. If we want to reduce energy consumption and the amount of capacity that is available, we have to cut down on what happens at peak periods. What is more, we must cut down on the increase that is looked for over the next 20 years. For instance, it is forecast—again, I do not know whether this is accurate—that the number of homes which have dishwashers will increase from the 1975 figure of 2 per cent, to 30 per cent. in the year 2000, and we all know that there is a wide variation in the amount of energy that is used by the different types.
The noble Earl the Minister has said that because types of appliances change so quickly, it would not be appropriate to put these appliances into the Bill along with those which are the primary concern of the Bill. I accept that there is a difference, and that it is easier to include the appliances which are covered. But what I do not accept is that we can rely entirely upon market pressures to solve this problem. There has to be more than that. There has to be a Government commitment
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to see that we get power usage down during this period.
I am very disappointed with the reply of the noble Earl the Minister, not necessarily because he has not accepted our amendment, but because he has not attempted to produce any kind of Government initiative which would help in this matter, about which we on these Benches feel very strongly. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us a slightly fuller reply than he has given so far.
4.56 p.m.
Lord Avebury: Like my noble friends, I feel very strongly about this matter, particularly because I happen to be president of the Conservation Society which has for years struggled to persuade successive Governments to listen to the arguments for doing something about energy conservation, and not to leave it entirely to market forces, as the noble Earl on the Government Front Bench seems to wish. I must say that when we have the opportunity, as we have today, of discussing an Energy Conservation Bill, it is our duty to try to see that it does what the Title suggests, as my noble friend had just said, and does not simply introduce some very minor improvements in the Government's policy for these matters.
I accept, also, that at the moment the appliances which my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, have in mind may not represent a very high proportion of consumption, whether it be 25 or 30 per cent. of total domestic energy consumption. But as my noble friend has just remarked, they represent a much higher proportion of electrical energy consumption and this is of particular importance, hearing in mind the investment which the increase in these appliances is likely to stimulate.
I do not know how much investigation the Minister has done into the effect of an extra kilowatt being consumed at peak hours, when it comes, as it will do in the future, largely from the very expensive nuclear generating capacity which we are now about to construct, and which may cost £2,000 per additional kilowatt. So that the person who switches on one of these appliances which the noble Earl says account for such a low proportion of domestic energy consumption is not simply consuming an extra kilowatt of energy. He is intervening in the market by helping to cause the Central Electricity Generating Board to construct a new station of, perhaps, 2,000 megawatts. When you add together the person with the dishwasher, another person with a hi-fi set and a third person with a video recorder, those people, switching on their appliances at peak hours, are causing this additional investment in the CEGB which my noble friend says is of such importance—and I entirely agree with him.
Therefore, although we are not asking the Minister to do anything immediately, we are saying that he should at least have the power, the permissive right which we are putting in in these additional clauses, to make regulations for those appliances, as he can for the ones in the Bill. I myself think, and I expect that many noble Lords will agree with me, that although we may he talking about what is a comparatively small proportion of the total energy consumption at the moment, if we are successful in the programmes of improved insulation of dwellings that we have talked

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about so much over the past few years, then the amount of energy which is consumed in heating will decline as a proportion of the total. So that, by the end of the century, these appliances, which the noble Earl on the Front Bench says are of minor importance now, may account for the majority of the consumption in the home.
In view of the fact that we are not likely to have another opportunity to legislate for some considerable time, why does not the noble Earl at least take these powers—not use them, if he does not want to, in the immediate future, but at least have them in reserve so that if the predictions that we on these Benches are making come true he or his successors will not have to say in a few years' time, "I only wish the opportunity had been taken in 1981 to put these into the Bill"?
The Earl of Gowrie: May I answer the two general points which have been made by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, and his noble friend. I do get the impression that my original answer was not entirely satisfactory, and I think it was not entirely satisfactory. The reason why it was not entirely satisfactory was because I did not put it very well. Another reason why it was not entirely satisfactory was because the phrase "market forces" is apt to get us into the arena of macro-economic debate. Whatever our general views about macro-economic issues, this is not what I had in mind when I was talking about the Bill.
The market forces I mentioned are well illustrated by two recent advertisements of very different goods which are sold direct to the public. Your Lordships will he aware that one of the big selling points of the Mini Metro—I realise that in this Bill we are not dealing with cars but I use the Mini Metro by analogy—is that it is capable of travelling up to 83 miles per gallon. That is put forward as a selling point by the manufacturers. Obviously the Government have methods of seeing that such claims are justifiable and are not made irresponsibly.
Closer to home, both literally and in terms of this Bill, I commend another recent advertisement of a product manufactured by a company whose name I cannot remember. However, the advertisement made the sensible point that the company was offering on the market an oven which could cook a small amount of food in one part of it and a larger amount if you wished to extend it for a special occasion. It argued that many people were turning on ovens designed to roast a turkey for about 17 in order to make a small flan for one or two people. It is that kind of instance where in our view the market has a strong market interest in energy efficiency. These are goods which are sold direct to the public, who will look around and judge products not merely on their technical capacity but also on their energy efficiency. This will be a good selling point.
My second point on market forces is that technology changes rapidly and that companies are competing over research and development in connection with these appliances because they know perfectly well that energy efficiency is a selling point to the public. We are worried that if we write into the Bill certain requirements, our requirements here for directly sold appliances
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may lag behind. We may be requiring more inefficiency, if I may put it this way, than the market interchange between consumers, purchasers and manufacturers is providing.
That is on what could be called the directly sold appliance side of the equation. This clause is concerned with those articles which one tends to buy, whether one is in a manufacturing combine or whether one is simply equipping one's home without so much knowledge, or less frequently, as directly installed appliances—space heaters, water heaters and the like. By having type approval there, we think we can achieve substantial energy saving of the kind we all want without tampering with what the market is doing quite efficiently, as I think the examples which I have given—I could give many others—show, and also without passing on gratuitous costs to those manufacturers and therefore to those consumers.
I accept that the Bill may be more modest than its rather grand title indicates, although there are good reasons for that title, as I hope to show later; hut it is for those reasons that I hope the Committee will accept my assurances and resist the amendments.
Lord Tanlaw: In view of what the noble Earl has said, obviously I shall have to reconsider the position. However, what lie has been trying to say is that the appliance of science to the statute book is a difficult process. Especially when the second law of thermodynamics is used, it produces odd results. We were hoping to strengthen his hand in the Bill, but the noble Earl desires not to have it strengthened in this way by these amendments. In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 2 to 6 not moved.]
5.6 p.m.
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 7:
page3, line 35, leave out (" (whether or not it") and insert ("being an appliance which uses energy in any form (including solar radiation) to generate or transmit the heat required for the purpose (including any such appliance which").
The noble Earl said: During the Second Reading debate of the Bill in your Lordships' House interest was shown in the question of which appliances were covered by the term "heat generator". Partly as a consequence of the representations made to me then, we have concluded that the definition of "heat generator" in Clause 1(11) needs to be refined. As at present defined, the term "heat generator" covers a variety of appliances which it is not our intention to cover in the Bill. The radiators of a central heating system, for instance, obviously are appliances designed for space heating and therefore are heat generators within the meaning of Clause 1(11) as it stands at present. But it is not sensible to subject central heating radiators to a system of type approval. It is the boiler of the central heating system which can best be made more efficient by means of the kind of standards we are seeking to achieve in the Bill by means of type approval.
The essence of the heat generator is that it has an input in the form of fuel, or electricity, or solar energy, and an output in the form of heat—as hot water, steam, hot air or radiant heat. In non-scientific language, a heat generator is an energy-consuming

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appliance designed for space or water heating. This amendment therefore adds a second limb to the definition of "heat generator"; namely, that a heat generator is an appliance which uses energy in any form, including solar radiation, to generate or transmit the heat required for the purpose of space or water heating.
By this amendment, the term "heat generator" will cover the following space and water heating appliances: all forms of boiler; fires and heaters which use fuel or electricity, since these use energy to generate heat; heat pumps if they are designed for space or water heating, because the amendment speaks of appliances which use energy to transmit heat; solar panels, since these use solar radiation for the purposes of hot water production. All these appliances are implicitly covered by the definition in Clause 1(11) as it stands.
The amendment does not add any new categories of appliance to the definition of a heat generator, but the point is that Part I of the Bill is about the setting up of a system of type approvals. The efficiency of boilers can be dealt with by means of type approvals, but the question of controls for the central heating system cannot, because many controls, valves and the like are sold separately and are only married up, or effective, with the rest of the system during installation. I beg to move.
Lord Avebury: If the Minister put down this amendment primarily with the intention of excluding hot water radiators, then I do not think he has been successful because a hot water radiator is an appliance which takes in energy in the form of hot water from the remainder of the central heating system and transmits it into the room by radiation and convection. Therefore it would still be included within the extended definition, as amended. The noble Earl should have another look at the definition between now and the Report stage to sec whether the remarks I have just made do not imply that the radiators which he seeks to exclude are still covered.
The Earl of Gowrie: I certainly have no reluctance to look at the noble Lord's remarks between now and the next stage of the Bill but I would remind him that we have thought of this point. The hot water has to get hot before it gets into the radiator in order to disseminate its heat more efficiently, and what we are concerned with is the type approval and the energy conserving standards of the appliance which makes that water hot. Therefore, it does not seem to me to achieve the results we want to insist upon standards for the radiator which are rather meaningless when divorced from its boiler.
Lord Avebury: The noble Earl has missed the point I was trying to make. I was not disagreeing with him in his attempt to exclude radiators from the Bill. What I am saying is that he has been unsuccessful in modifying the definition so as to exclude radiators. I am with him in his intention not to include radiators, which he said do not need type approval; but I do not think that the amendment tabled by the noble Earl achieves that purpose.
Lord Strabolgi: I was going to say that in my humble view it seemed admirably to fit the Bill, and before the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, intervened I was about to
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congratulate the Government and the draftsmen on their ingenuity. Of course we are dealing with the Bill in its first stage. It is a Bill which started in your Lordships' House and I think we must be grateful to the noble Earl. It seems to me to be an excellent reason why from time to time Bills should start in this House.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 8 not moved.]
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [UK requirements for type approval and approval of operating and maintenance instructions]:
5.13 p.m.
Lord Tanlaw: moved Amendment No. 9
page4, line 11, after ("construction") insert (" thermostatic control").
The noble Lord said: It may be convenient if 1 speak also to amendment No. 10. This is a very short and simple amendment really to ask the noble Earl whether he will confirm that, whereas the Bill has powers to give type approval to various thermostatic controls over gas appliances, this should also be extended to all other appliances, also including radiant heat sources, such as radiators, which have been touched on. I really cannot quite see why we are taking so much trouble to ensure that we get type approval and maximum energy efficiency on the source of heat, the form of energy conversion power or at the heat generator source, because if such a type-approved heat generator is linked to a set of inefficient radiators all the energy saved and the efficiency made in the type-approved heat generator is lost by having a series of poor radiant heat sources, or inefficient radiators.
Therefore, I should like to ask the Government whether they are sure that all the good work that this Bill is intended to do may not be undone unless they are able to confirm that type approval will be given to a heat generator that has an efficient system of radiant heat sources; for example, radiators and proper thermostatic controls. Similar to the example given by the noble Earl, of cooking a small steak in a large oven, there are often occasions when part of a building is not being used or different temperatures are required in different parts of the building, where proper thermostatic control must be maintained, with proper valves. If the noble Earl can give some assurance that the good work of the Bill is not being undermined by the lack of control over the radiant heat sources and the thermostatic controls, obviously I would be prepared not to press this amendment. In the meantime I beg to move.
The Earl of Gowrie: Although I am not directly employed, so to speak, in the Department of Energy, I do have rather proprietorial feelings about this Bill as it was introduced in your Lordships' House and therefore I am entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, in not wishing to see it undermined in any way. I think I can set his mind at rest in that the substantive points he has made are covered by the existing wording of the Bill. Of course there is always the fascination when semantics and linguistics tangle with engineering devices, which one gets in this kind of legislation.
Clause 2(2) already provides that standards may impose requirements with respect to the design or

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construction of appliances, and this clearly includes the possibility of requiring that appliances should have appropriate thermostatic controls upon them. Clause 2(2) is also concerned with the sorts of standards which may be set for any of the appliances covered by Part I of the Bill. These, of course, include radiant heat sources such as radiant gas fires.
Amendment No. 10 does not make different provision for radiant heat sources from that for other types of appliances, and therefore I do not quite understand why the provisions already contained in subsection (2)(a) should not be regarded as sufficient. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, that radiant space heaters are heat generators and so are covered.
Lord Tanlaw: In view of those remarks, I do not wish to press either of the amendments standing in my name, and I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 9.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 10 not moved.]
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [On-site testing orders]:
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 11, line 40, leave out ("owner") and insert ("person responsible for the use").
The noble Earl said: With the leave of the Committee, while moving this amendment I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 12, 15 and 18. At present, Clause 9(5) of the Bill provides that after a testing authority has carried out an on-site test on a heat generator, it may be required by an order made under Clause 9 to send a copy of the test report to the owner of the heat generator, and—if the heat generator has passed the test—to send the owner also a data plate and a document containing information about the result of the test. Later on, in Clause 13, the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to require the owner of the heat generator to fix to the heat generator the data plate that he has received from the testing authority.
The Government have received representations from organisations representing finance companies to the effect that these provisions are not entirely appropriate. Some heat generators, for instance, are sold under what are commonly called "leasing agreements ". Under these agreements, ownership of the heat generator, generally throughout its entire useful life, rests with a finance company, and not with the person entitled under the agreement to its possession. But the finance company's interest in the heat generator is purely financial. In the majority of cases, it is not involved in operating or maintaining the appliance, and has never had it physically in its possession. In these circumstances, it is not appropriate to make the owner of the heat generator the recipient of the test report, and so on, or the person responsible for fixing the data plate to the heat generator. Clause 14 of the Bill already recognises this point in relation to heat generators which are subject to hire purchase or conditional sale agreements.
The Government now believe it is desirable to extend this principle to cover other sorts of agreement under
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which the person in possession of the heat generator is someone other than the formal owner. We propose to do this by placing rights and duties on the person responsible for the use of the heat generator instead of on the owner. This amendment and the amendment to Clause 13 are concerned with making this small change, and the amendment to Clause 14 provides a definition of "person responsible for the use of a heat generator." I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 12:
Page 12, line 12, leave out ("owner") and insert ("person responsible for the use").
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Tanlaw Lord Tanlaw moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 12, line 13, at end insert ("; and
(c) to send to the owner of any generator tested by the order a copy of the test report to be displayed outside the premises of installation for inspection by the testing authority.").
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment I would like it to be read in conjunction with the amendments I have down to Clause 13—Amendments Nos. 16 and 17—because there is a matter of general principle involved in it. Secondly, I also believe that it adds strength to the Bill; it provides greater acceptance by the public and encourages the owner of any heat generator to purchase a type-approved heat generator. If in fact, as has been said by the noble Earl, the owner of any generator tested has to receive various copies of the test certificates, then he should be given one more copy, which is for display outside the premises of installation for inspection by the testing authority.
I see no reason why the testing authority's inspectors need to have access simply to read the certificate. I feel that this can only create the same kind of problems as it creates for members of gas boards or electricity boards who have to go in to read a meter and cannot get access for one reason or another. Also I feel that it is a waste of money if testing authority inspectors have to make special visits, or have to make appointments to get entry to an office or dwelling-house, to find the owner, who then has to find the certificate. Let us not pretend that the owners of heat generators are any less human than other members of the public; there will be occasions on which they will mislay the vital certificate, and this will create still further correspondence problems. Therefore, why do we not send the owner a copy of the test certificate for display outside the building so that it can be read by inspectors? They need not trouble anybody; they can go along and check it. Of course, if there is anything wrong or defective or suspicious about such certificates the inspectors can use the full powers under the Bill to get entry, to ask for other relevant papers, to look at the type-approval plate on the heat generator and so on.
This is a simple amendment intended to strengthen the Bill and also to put forward a matter of principle, that we should try to discourage as much as possible entry to dwelling-houses. It can be overcome by this simple addition to the Bill providing an extra copy of the test certificate for display outside the premises of installation. I beg to move.
The Earl of Gowrie: May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, if he was also speaking to his amendment No. 17?
Lord Tanlaw: No. I really wanted to get the noble Earl's view on this amendment, and obviously the Government's reaction to it would influence my views on Amendment No. 17, which in fact is slightly different in the sense that it involves electricity and gas meters.
The Earl of Gowrie: I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that clear. The noble Lord and I are absolutely in agreement that Part II of the Bill must deal with issues of enforcement, but where I think we differ is that he seems to envisage, by the language of his amendment, that there will be a body of inspectors whose job it will be to make on-site checks to see that boilers have been tested. That is not quite how we envisage it. As I explained at Second Reading, it is our intention to use the powers in Clauses 9(6) and 12(2) to compile records of heat generators supplied and then match them against records of heat generators tested. The powers under Part II of the Bill will be used to require on-site testing only for the very largest boilers, that is to say only about some 700 installations to be tested in a given year. In that context our method of enforcement seems both practical and economic.
In those few cases where the records show apparent discrepancies and where an on-site check is desirable, it will 11 be as simple for an inspector to look at the boiler to see if it bears a data plate provided by the testing authority as it would be to check the outside of what is likely to be a very large building for a copy of the test certificate. Amendment No. 16 refers to type-approved heat generators and is therefore inappropriate in Part II of the Bill, which concerns only heat generators not subject to type-approval procedures.
Lord Tanlaw: I am not entirely clear about what the noble Earl has just said. If, as I understand it, there will be no need for inspection of these certificates unless for very major installations, and therefore it is not necessary to display them, or indeed to produce them except under very special circumstances, then obviously there has been a misunderstanding on my part in interpretation of the Bill.
As to the noble Earl's other point about how to find the certificates if they are displayed outside the building, this is covered in Amendment No. 17. They will be put in the area or in the cupboard or box which contains the meters for the gas and electricity and other services to a building, be it a private dwelling-house or an industrial building. Perhaps the noble Earl can confirm that he is saying that this amendment is not necessary because the certificates will not need to be inspected except on very special occasions, so that members of the general public will not need to be bothered by inspectors. In that case I shall be happy not to press these two amendments.
The Earl of Gowrie: The noble Lord has now got it right, if I may say so. We are talking about the inspection of very few appliances, all as big as a house, as it were. There is no reason why the data plate should not be on the installation itself rather than on
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the building which houses it. It will be a fairly massively visible and checkable affair. The kind of checking of on-site testing that we are doing is fundamental to the mode of design which has been put into production. The work of the inspector would be to check any discrepancies between our understanding of the design and what might have been installed under that design. It would be really in the sphere of large-scale commercial operations that this Part of the Bill would apply.
Baroness Seear: May I ask the noble Earl whether he would agree that the energy being consumed in your Lordships' Chamber is grossly excessive?
The Earl of Gowrie: I think this is rather outside the immediate sphere of the Bill, but I am quite happy to take it up with the usual channels. We must be cost-effective in that way. It may he that we have not made sufficient allowance for the delicate state of our heraldic bosses, that the presence of the scaffolding and the new false ceiling has raised the temperature, and that therefore we could put the thermostat down a little. I will certainly pass it on.
Lord Tanlaw: In view of the noble Earl's very helpful explanations, I shall not press this amendment. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 13.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 and 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 [Obligations of suppliers of generators subject to on-site testing]:
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 14, line 16, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Earl said: I beg to move Amendment No. 14 and I beg leave to speak to Amendments Nos. 23 to 27 together with this amendment. We are proposing the deletion of Clause 12(3) of the Bill simply because Amendment No. 23 to Clause 26 will now make it unnecessary, if that amendment is accepted.
Amendment No. 23 supplements the definition of "supply". This is an important definition, since Clause 1 of the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to prohibit the supply of a heat generator without a type approval mark, or the supply of a gas appliance unless a type approval is in force for the model in question. The reasons for the proposed change are very similar to the reasons behind the amendments to Clauses 9, 13 and 14. The present definition includes in the concept of supplying an appliance, supply under a hire or hire-purchase agreement. It is commonly a finance company once again which supplies an appliance under an agreement of this sort. As I argued in the last set of Government amendments, the finance company will probably never have had physical possession of the heat generator, so it is unreasonable to hold it responsible if, for instance, a heat generator is supplied which ought to bear a type approval mark but which does not do so, or ought to be but is not accompanied by operating instructions. It is much more reasonable, surely, to confine this responsibility on the person who physically provides the appliances—the shopkeeper, the builders' merchant or the like.
Amendment No. 23, therefore, provides that where an appliance is supplied under a hire-purchase agreement, it is the person who provides the appliance, rather than any finance company which hires or otherwise transfers the appliance to the consumer, who will be treated as supplying the appliance. There are very similar provisions in Section 6(9) of the Health and safety at Work Act 1974 and in Section 9(3) of the Consumer Safety Act 1978. I beg leave to move Amendment No. 14.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13 [Data plates for approved generators]:
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 14, line 22, leave out ("owner") and insert ("person responsible for the use").
The noble Earl said: I beg to move Amendment No. 15. I have already spoken to this amendment with Amendments Nos. 11 and 12.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
5.34 p.m.
Lord Tanlaw Lord Tanlaw moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 14, line 26, at end insert—
(" ( ) The Secretary of State may also by order enable the owner of any type-approved heat generator to make an application for facilities to the relevant Electricity Generating Board or Gas Board for all energy metering devices and test reports to be sited for inspection outside the premises of installation.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 17. I separated this amendment from the other two, and, of course, as a result of the information that 1 have had from the noble Earl the wording is not now correct, but that does not in any way take away the point of this amendment. Perhaps hopefully, the noble Earl will look at it and see some means of incorporating at least the principle behind the amendment in the Bill when it goes to another place.
It was asked on Second Reading: what are the benefits to the owners of type-approved heat generators? Where are the benefits to the general public within this Bill?—as opposed to the general principle which we all approve, and we strongly support the Government in their presentation of it. There are very few benefits. Therefore, I am suggesting that here is one way in which the Bill could receive general enthusiasm in that it would reach out and affect a large number of members of the public who have been irritated for many years by this inefficient method of reading meters.
There are a number of humorous stories about meter readers which I shall not introduce into the Committee stage of an energy conservation Bill, but what I shall say is that I think there could be some conservation of energy in the administration of the electricity and gas boards by greater efficiency in their reading of meters. There are technical ways in which that may be done in a few years' time, but the most efficient way of all is simply to install meters so that they can be read from the outside of the household or office. That would not require entry; it requires them getting the information without bothering the owner. That is a very simple thing.
A great deal of aggravation has been created by visits by inspectors to read meters who are unable to get access. In those circumstances, they have to guess the amount of electricity or gas which has been consumed. That is often wildly inaccurate in their favour and creates a certain amount of hostile correspondence. The whole thing is unnecessary.
However, here in this Bill we can incorporate now a newly worded section which would allow any owner of a type-approved heat generator automatically to apply, free of cost, to have his meters reinstalled or resited if required, in order that they may be read from outside the building. That surely would be to the cost-benefit of the generating boards because they would not waste money on calls that are unproductive. Therefore, I think that everyone should be reasonably happy.
The noble Earl well may say that this is not the right Bill to bring this in. I ask him to reconsider that. As I said earlier, there do not appear to be any direct benefits coming from this rather well-meaning Bill, in which case I am asking to put in a sweetener which will be generally popular and, indeed, I think cost effective in every sense. I beg to move.
The Earl of Gowrie: The purpose of the noble Lord's amendment would be to add a new power to the Bill whereby the Secretary of State could enable the owner of any type-approved heat generator to make an application for facilities to the relevant electricity generating board or gas board for all energy metering devices and test reports to be sited for inspection or reading outside the premises of installation.
May I say that I am very sorry to miss the noble Lord's anecdotes about people who read meters. Perhaps he could have a private word with me between now and the next stage of the Bill. I am all for sweetening consumers, but I find the question of the siting of gas and electricity meters rather remote from the purposes of the Bill. I do not quite see the relevance of their siting to energy conservation. Consumers are, of course, already able to apply to have meters sited outside the premises, although it is, of course up to the electricity or gas board to decide whether or not to comply with their request.
What I am not quite clear about is why the noble Lord should regard it as important for consumers that they should be enabled, by statute, to have meters outside the premises. Siting meters outside is normally done, not for the benefit of the consumer, but for the benefit of the gas or electricity board, since they do not then need access to the premises in order to read the meters. The Government would, therefore, much prefer to continue to leave this matter to the gas and electricity industries to handle as they think fit. I hope that the noble Lord will be content to leave it at that.
Baroness Seear: I must say that the noble Earl can never have lived on his own if he thinks that it is not in the interests of consumers to have meter reading done outside the building. As the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, has said, it is a source of constant irritation to people who have to go out to work—and if the occupants are couples often they both go out to work—that it is not possible to get their meter effectively read. One receives endless little notices from the electricity

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Authority—who take not the slightest notice, I may say, when one writes to tell them when one is going to be in—saying that they have called and cannot get in. They then estimate your account; you get a totally wrong figure and you spend a great deal of time month after month having to adjust your accounts. It would be a very great convenience to be able to have the reading of the meter carried out automatically outside, without having to provide access.
The Earl of Gowrie: I take that point, but, of course, we are not dealing with general meters of one's electricity use, where I completely understand the relevance of what the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, is saying; under the Bill we are dealing with type-approved heat generators, probably under Part I of the Bill, rather than Part II where this occurs. Nevertheless, I shall look at the point. Perhaps if the noble Lord wishes to return to it, I can see whether I can give him some satisfaction. However, at first glance it does not seem that the consumers' interests, which the noble Lord and his noble friend Lady Seear are representing, are, in fact, relevant in this part of the Bill. However, I shall have another look at it.
Lord Tanlaw: I am extremely grateful to the noble Earl for his response to this. I appreciate that this may not be the right part of the Bill, or even the right Bill. I can simply assure him that this is a matter which bothers a large number of people. As to how to bring it to pass, I am not clear. I found that this Bill was the nearest one could get to doing so. I must warn the noble Earl that it would be difficult for him and for the general goodwill of the Government if he categorically said "No, I shall not look at this", whether or not this is the right Bill, or whether there should be a separate arrangement for it. If he can take on board that this does worry a large number of the public and will have another look at it, I shall be very pleased to withdraw the amendment and be encouraged by his remarks.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 [Interpretation of Part II]:
5.43 p.m.
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 14, line 39, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—
(" (a) references to the person responsible for the use of any heat generator are references to the owner or, if a person other than the owner is in possession of the generator under any agreement the person in possession under that agreement;").
The noble Earl said: I have already spoken to this amendment when I spoke to Amendments Nos. 11 and 12. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 19:
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
("Use of water power for electricity generation, etc.
.(1) In the exercise of their functions under the Water Resources Act 1963 and the other enactments relating to water
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and water-supply and the control and disposition of water resources, water authorities shall have regard to the national importance of facilitating, so far as is reasonably consistent with the need to satisfy primary demands on those resources, the use of water as an alternative or supplementary source of power.
(2) A charging scheme under section 32 of the Water Act 1973 may provide for charges to be paid by persons obtaining power from machinery installed in water in the authority's area; but such charges—

(a) shall only be made in the cases (if any) where the authority is obliged to incur expenditure directed to maintaining the flow of water to the machinery or otherwise in connection with the machinery or any use to which it is put; and

(b) when made, shall be reasonably related to the amount and character of the expenditure, taking into account any extent to which it serves purposes other than those of providing water power.").

The noble Lord said: In speaking to this amendment, I should also like to speak to the consequential amendment, Amendment No. 29. However, before I do so, I should like to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that in the first line of subsection (2) "section 32" should read "section 31". I apologise to the Committee for this error; I do not know how it crept in.
This is a fairly long amendment addressing a relatively simple but, I think, quite important point. It comes into conservation—and, incidentally, it is well within the Long Title of the Bill when it refers to the "nation's use of energy"—because the widespread and diffuse production of energy from small-scale renewable resources is the other side of the energy-saving equation. The purpose of the amendment is to safeguard past and present practice, but, perhaps more importantly, it is to smooth the path of future development of power from water resources. In this connection, I am glad to see my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy present, because I hope that he will be able to tell us how it is that in recent times Scotland seems to have managed these affairs better than England and Wales.
I also know that the Department of Energy is aware of new techniques which are currently being developed and these will help to extract power from low head hydro installations. Of course, it is difficult to estimate the contribution that installations of this kind could make to the overall power production in the United Kingdom, hut even 1 per cent. would be very well worth having. However, the December issue of the Department of Energy's own broadsheet, called Energy Management, has a large article on small-scale hydroelectricity power. In it, it says that it believes the potential to be something like the equivalent of a quarter of a million tonnes of coal equivalent each year, which I suppose is probably worth £10 million. Therefore, I suggest that this is worth going for. Incidentally, there is the additional point that making machines of this kind at this juncture in our affairs would be a useful additional industry with export potential, and would give—and I am sure this is particularly dear to the heart of the Minister—some possibility of additional employment in small firms.
The amendment does not seek to address the fundamental problem of what is abstraction. That has been a source of argument in England and Wales ever since the Water Act 1963. At risk of over-simplification of a vexed and complicated question, perhaps I could explain that the National Association of Water-Power Users, which has drafted this amendment, believes that

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taking water out of a river, dropping it through a few feet and returning it again to that same river does not by any reasonable definition constitute a taking out or abstraction. But this amendment deliberately confines itself to the more limited objective of seeking to restrain water authorities from levying unreasonable charges, perhaps related to the work that they have to do in making the water available.
Here, I should like to pray in aid a letter written by the Department of the Environment. On 18th December, the Minister wrote saying:
"A defensible case could be made for charging for these abstractions only a minimal cost to cover the administrative expenses of granting a licence and not calculated on a volume-related basis".
I find that most encouraging. Incidentally, that same letter put the subject into perspective by mentioning that the total revenues collected under this heading in 1977 were about £20,000. Therefore, any potential loss of revenue would not have much impact on water authority finances. That same letter shows additional enlightenment when the Minister says:
" I am concerned that charging for these abstractions is seen as an obstacle to new initiatives in producing energy from non-fossil fuel sources".
This is, of course, particularly true where capital costs are likely to be relatively high for hydro-electric schemes, because the installer hopes to recoup his outlay through greatly reduced annual costs.
It may be argued that protective legislation of this sort is not needed; but there I must point out that there have been cases, which I raised in this House very many years ago, where water authorities felt it necessary to ask for dramatic rate increases from those who are using water for power production. In four specific cases of which I have a record the suggested rates were increased from less than £100 to over £10,000. That is an increase of over one hundred-fold. Even the cost of oil—and, God knows, that has been pretty dramatic—has gone up by only a factor of 20 since 1973. Therefore, I believe that there are sufficiently alarming cases to cause us to say that we should do something to protect people against these kinds of imposition. It seems to me that this Bill is an ideal opportunity to do it, and it is a better opportunity than a Private Member's Bill which I believe was in preparation.
I should have thought that the case I am advancing would have commended itself without any equivocation to the Department of Energy, and it appears to be supported by the Department of the Environment. I very much hope that the Minister will feel able to accept the concept at least in principle, even if he has reservations about the detailed drafting of our amendment. I beg to move Amendment No. 19, with the amendment of "32" to "31".
5.52 p.m.
Lord Strabolgi: I should like to support this amendment. In doing so I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, for the way in which he has moved it. I think that the Government's loss has been the gain of the Back-Benches. I endorse everything that he has said. As the noble Lord has said, one of the difficulties stems
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from the Water Resources Act 1963 which, combined with the traditional attitude of many of the electricity people, amounts to a powerful disincentive for those who run, or seek to run, turbines or waterwheels.
The National Association of Water-Power Users tell me that in their experience no other country so discourages access to this well-proven renewable energy source. One of the difficulties has been that energy has been the responsibility of the Department of Energy, as we all know, and that water, and things like thermal insulation, rating and re-rating, and so on, have all come under the Department of the Environment who, until recently, have had very little interest in energy conservation at all.
During 1977 there was a change and the previous Government set up a study group which was composed of these two departments. I believe that they have worked together on this problem and they have produced a research paper which shows that there has indeed been a rundown in the use of water power over many years, and it is demonstrated that it is practicable, and in the national interest, to reverse this trend. I should therefore like to ask the Government how their policy is going along in connection with this study. Those who create waterpower do not use water. They only make use of its energy and then they return the water to the river a little lower down, and both the water and the energy are still there for the next user downstream.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, has mentioned the substantial and indeterminate charges levied on waterpower users, and that these discourage the production of this very form of power which is most desirable. He mentioned one case of how the rating had been increased so much. There is no appeal against the level of charges. I understand that the Welsh National Water Development Authority recently increased the water charges overnight from one small installation from approximately £50—and this is not a typing error—to £30,000 per annum, and only reduced them a fraction of the latter sum after a hitter battle through the press. This is the kind of thing that water users are having to put up with from people who have no, or very little, interest in energy conservation and very little knowledge of it. Therefore, I hope that the Government will look sympathetically at this amendment and at the principle behind it.
5.56 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy: In response to the invitation from my noble friend I rise to speak briefly to his amendment on the point which he mentioned. I would ask my noble friend Lord Gowrie to have a look at the legislation and practice in Scotland. Amendment No. 29, the consequential amendment to this, specifically excludes Scotland from this amendment. The reason, as I see it, is because the situation is already more satisfactory in Scotland. There exist there arrangements where surplus energy from private hydropower can be paid into the grid instead of being wasted. I may be out-of-date, but that is, I understand, still the position.
In Scotland it is also provided that private hydropower does not meet the strong discouragement which my noble friend mentioned which appears to exist

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from the authorities south of the Border. I suggest that this is important at a time when increases in costs of energy and the need for conservation of other sources are particularly important for us. There is a paradox that the two Scottish boards feed their electricity into the United Kingdom grid, so it all ends up sensibly in the same system at the end of the day. Both the Scottish boards are generating and distributing electricity authorities in contrast to the electricity bodies south of the Border.
The two electricity boards in Scotland do not come under the Department of Energy. I recognise that there is a difficulty about different Ministries, but when the Department of Energy was formed in January 1974 the electricity function of the Secretary of State for Scotland remained with him and was completely unaltered. I ask my noble friend to pursue this. I am sorry to have to say this, but it seems that the system in England and Wales appears less flexible and progressive than that in Scotland.
There may be difficulties in England and Wales; I recognise that, and I certainly shall not go into them now. I know that there are difficulties about extracting water higher up a river and returning it a bit lower down, and indeed that some water authority may suddenly extract water above a hydro-electric station and then feel they have to pay compensation, or provide some kind of financial equivalent. I recognise that there may be difficulties and I accept that this Bill may not be the right Bill for making this change, but my noble friend has drawn attention to something which needs to be considered. There are difficulties which have to be overcome, but so far they seem to have been overcome rather better in Scotland. Therefore, the possibility of improvement appears to exist.
Lord Ritchie-Calder: I should like to support the amendment. It seems to me to he strange that we can talk about dirty water, about wasting water, but I never knew it exhausted the molecule of water. I do not see what happens to a molecule of water when it passes through a generating plant which would deprive it from further use. Since all of us in this room are still breathing molecules of oxygen which Julius Ceasar breathed when he crossed to England, I do not know whose water we would be using in the generators to come.
6 p.m.
Lord Avebury: I certainly support the spirit of the amendment, although I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, has brought it in at quite the right point in the legislation, in that what he is really seeking to do is to mitigate the effect of powers conferred on the water authorities by the Water Act 1973. The examples he gave showed that, apparently at any rate, very unreasonable increases were being made in the charges where somebody, as it would be expressed, abstracted water for use in power generation, thus making it totally uneconomic. I do not know whether the individuals concerned knew that would happen before embarking on what was presumably substantial capital expenditure.
I see the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, shaking his head in dissent, which indicates another defect in the Water Act 1973; it should surely be possible, if some
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body is thinking of spending money on putting in generators, to discuss the matter in a preliminary way with the water authority to find out by how much the charge would be increased. It seems to me that that would be a matter best dealt with by means of an amendment to the 1973 Act, where these powers could be reduced, with some means of appeal being provided for the installer of water turbines who is aggrieved at the charges made on him in consequence of that use. If the noble Lord had sought to introduce an amendment to the Water Act 1973—which is presumably how it is being done in the Private Member's Bill he mentioned—one would then have agreed with both the letter and the spirit of it. I hope there is some way by which the noble Lord's proposals can be accomplished, but I am not sure this measure is the right way to do it.
Lord Swinfen: I support the amendment, which I think is extremely sensible, and I hope that if necessary my noble friend will press it to a Division.
The Earl of Gowrie: I wish to say at the outset how much I miss the support of my noble friend Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal on these Benches and how right he is in my view to plunge straight into the role of scrutiny and scourge of the Government's legislation, and I look forward to being flailed by him often, particularly if he continues on such a widely supported wicket as this one. The Government sympathise with much of the general thinking behind the amendment. The Government believe that small-scale hydro-electric power schemes can make a very worthwhile contribution to our energy supply and that the economics of small-scale hydro look promising enough to justify more evaluation. I am glad to say that the Department of Energy recently announced that it was examining specific schemes to establish the economics of small-scale hydro schemes and their suitability for demonstration of the latest technology in that field.
The Government have had discussions with bodies such as the National Association of Water Power Users on the question of the charges made by water authorities in connection with small-scale hydro-electric schemes. The position is that three of the water authorities in England and Wales do not in fact charge for abstraction—"abstraction" is the term of art word in the water industry for what we would call "extraction"—for hydro-power generation, and the rest charge at their lowest rate. None the less, the National Association of Water Power Users and others believe that even these levels of charge can seriously undermine the economic viability of some small hydroelectric schemes. They point out that hydro-electric power generation restores water to the water-course undiminished in quantity and quality, as several noble Lords have mentioned.
Section 30 of the Water Act 1973 sets out certain principles on which water authority charges should be based, among them the principle of non-discrimination between different categories of water user. This puts the Government in a slight fix; if we acceded to the eminently sensible suggestions which have been made by my noble friend and others, we might find ourselves altering in one Act a principle which had been established in another, and we would not want to do that

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in the context of this Bill—the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, made the point—without very great consideration and justification in our attempts to look at the legislation in the previous Act. However, I can tell my noble friend that we are looking at the possibility of using powers of discretion to see if they are compatible with the original 1973 Act and to see if we can get round the difficulty in that way.
In view of the national importance of minimising dependence on fuel from fossil sources, the Government have already taken action to help members of the national Association of Water Power Users. The Department of the Environment made representations at Ministerial level to water authorities in England last month asking them to review their charges for abstractions for power generation, and the Welsh Office intend to approach the Welsh Water Authority in the near future. The Government believe that a defensible case can be made for making only a minimal charge for these abstractions, instead of charging on a volume-related basis. But the right way is surely to proceed by way of discussion with the water authorities, at any rate in the first instance, and these discussions have not yet been completed. In addition, the Department of the Environment is now looking carefully at the Secretary of State's powers to make directions to water authorities under Section 63 of the Water Resources Act 1963, and that might be another way of taking further the alleviation of these charges.
I hope that in the light of those explanations of the Government's attitude, the steps that we are taking to make our views known to water authorities and the other steps that we are considering, my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment. My noble friend said the charges were, some years ago, proposed to be increased from less than £100 to over £10,000. My advice is that no such dramatic increase has occurred. In the most extreme case in Wales, the Welsh Water Authority agreed to change its charging basis, and a much lower charge was finally settled.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned the possibility of appeal. Clause 60 allows for an abstractor aggrieved by the refusal of a water authority to make an agreement with him to reduce his charges, or by the terms of such an agreement, to refer the matter to the Secretary of State, who must decide it. As for the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, in respect of Wales, that again may be a case which could currently come before the Secretary of State for Wales under this provision. I hope in the light of our very clearly stated sympathy for the aims which my noble friend has put forward and the practical steps we are taking to try to achieve those aims, he will meantime not press the amendment.
Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that encouraging response and I certainly do not intend to press the amendment at this stage. However, I have certain remarks to make to him and I must say at the outset that I do not trust Governments. I do not trust them even when I am in them, and I am not in this one any longer. It is not satisfactory to resort to saying that we must have further discussions; this point to my certain knowledge has been raised for about five years, and even
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in Government that should have been enough time to resolve the matter had Government really wanted to. I have the feeling that a little awkward legislation has a wonderful capacity to concentrate the Government's mind.
I am quite clear that the proper course for us today is to withdraw the amendment at this stage, but at the same time to remind my noble friend that I have been very grateful for the universal support that I have received in this Chamber for the amendment, or something like it. We should also consider whether or not we might return to the charge at a later stage in the Bill. I hope that that does not sound unreasonable; and I want to answer the point that my noble friend made about the question of water charges. I was, I hope, careful not to say that the charges had been levied; but they were certainly suggested, and the point is that it scared the hell out of the people who had been using water very cheaply for a very long time.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who pointed out that if one is considering embarking upon a water scheme, one of the first things that one needs to do is to discover what kind of charges are to be levied. It would save one a tremendous amount of trouble if one really knew with a degree of confidence that the charges were to be nominal only and were not to be, frankly, fairly serious imposts which were seriously proposed. Besides the question of whether or not the authorities that suggested those charges were doing so in genuine good faith, saying, "We are terribly sorry. These are imposed on us by the Water Act"—of 1963, incidentally; we keep on talking about 1973—it must be borne in mind that no local authority, particularly at the moment, minds receiving a little extra revenue which it was not expecting; and it can seldom resist the temptation.
We need to protect a potential user—and I refuse to call him a consumer; nor do I want to call him either an abstractor or an extractor. One has to call him a user. We want to protect him against any possibility of being scared, or being prevaricated against. I think that all of us agree that this is something we would want to do. I am grateful to the noble Earl for his indication that he would wish to assist us, and I can only say to him that if we do not succeed in mutually satisfying ourselves before the next stage of the Bill, I might try to jog his arm a little harder to see whether or not he can assist us a little more. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.12 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No.20:
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
(" Study and report on thermal insulation
—(1) The Secretary of State shall—

(a) carry out a study of the potential energy savings to be gained from thermal insulation of existing domestic dwellings in England and Wales;

(b) determine financial, legal, institutional and other obstacles to increased thermal insulation of such dwellings;

(c) establish an annual target for the thermal insulation of such dwellings;

(d) formulate proposals and policies for meeting the target established under (c) above.

(2) The Secretary of State shall prepare a report on the matters mentioned in subsection (1) above within twelve months of the date of passing of this Act, and shall lay a copy of the report before each House of Parliament.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment, like the last one, introduces a new subject to the Bill, but I am convinced that this amendment, too, falls within the scope of the Bill and its Long Title. The object of the amendment, as is fairly obvious, is to introduce into this country a plan for thermal insulation. As I said at an earlier stage, there is an urgent need for a concerted effort to try to save energy in this country. One of the major ways in which it can be saved, with great advantage both to the economy of the country as a whole and to individual citizens, is through thermal insulation of existing houses.
I think that the scope here is recognised by the Department of Energy itself. The Secretary of State's Advisory Council on Energy Conservation has made calculations which show that an uninsulated house can lose up to 25 per cent. of its heat through the roof, 35 per cent. through the walls, 15 per cent. through draughts, and 10 per cent. through windows. I suspect that if one went on one could quite easily calculate a loss of about 110 per cent. The point is not that all these things happen at the same time, but rather that through any of the escape routes we can lose a lot of energy and that it is very much worth our while to try to prevent that.
Obviously, much can be done by applying energy savings standards to new houses, but it is roughly estimated that at least three-quarters of the housing that we shall have in the year 2000 is already built. Yet the thermal efficiency of these buildings is not satisfactory and is certainly open to considerable improvement. For instance, of the 14 million houses with accessible lofts in both the private and public sectors, more than 5 million have no loft insulation whatsoever, and many more have insulation levels well below the official minimum standard, which in itself is not tremendously satisfactory.
In a low energy strategy for the United Kingdom by the LIED it has been suggested that cost-effective domestic insulation of the nation's housing stock could realise annual energy savings of between 25 and 40 per cent., depending on the kind of building that we are thinking of: a flat, a semi-detached house, or a detached house. I do not believe that those figures have been seriously disputed.
A 35 per cent. reduction in heat loss in dwellings in the United Kingdom would mean about an 8 per cent. saving in United Kingdom primary energy use—equivalent to a financial saving of £1,000 million a year at 1976 prices, and therefore considerably more at 1981 prices. It is, I suppose, worth noting in comparison that the cost of the entire building of one of the most enormously expensive, and I believe otherwise objectionable, nuclear power stations is of the same order as the annual savings that we arc suggesting could be made by a real campaign of thermal insulation.
I think that the Government recognise many of those points, and recognise also that things need to be done. However, they are relying—and I believe far too greatly—on the basic market forces, the suggestion that if energy prices are raised, advice is provided, there is advertising, and grants are made available,
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matters will move, and move fairly quickly. I consider that that is underestimating the urgency of the situation, and we have put down the amendment because we believe that there is a very real need for the Government to take this particular part of the energy programme and organise a proper survey to be carried out, after which action can be taken. We have suggested that this should be done by the Secretary of State, though there are many other ways in which it could be done.
Sometimes we have much sympathy with the Government and Ministers regarding some of the ways in which they want to lessen dabbling by Government in too many affairs, but I suggest that the whole question of energy is far too central, far too important, and far too urgent to be left without action being taken. It is time that the Government acted, and we suggest that this is the way that they should act. I beg to move.
Lord Strabolgi: I should like to support the amendment, to which I have added my name. As the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, has said, the immense short- and long-term savings in energy consumption which could result from insulation of the nation's housing stock are recognised by both the Government and independent analysts, yet progress towards high national levels of insulation has been slow and patchy. The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, mentioned loft insulation, and I, too, have referred to that in previous debates. Today I should like to say a few words about double glazing. A study of the usage of multiple glazing in the EEC, at the request of the EEC Commission, shows that the potential energy conservation achieved by further double glazing in Europe amounts to between 1½and 2 per cent, of the European annual energy consumption—that is just for double glazing. It also shows-and I am sorry to keep on saying this—that the United Kingdom lags substantially behind every other member state in usage of double glazing and in the encouragement of double glazing by incentive, tax concessions and grants. The survey also showed that there are no climatic reasons for this differential.
The time of construction is surely the cheapest time of all at which to insulate windows, and yet the draft of the new building regulations misses the opportunity to make double glazing mandatory and includes, indeed, an unjustifiable limit, in my view, on the permitted size of windows even when double glazed. This latter restriction arises from the failure adequately to take into account the solar gain factor, which is another form of heating. As I said, we lag behind most of our partners in the Community and our neighbouring states in Scandinavia in the incentive which the Government provide for insulation, and such little as we do in fact offer in the United Kingdom excludes double glazing, whereas all the continental schemes include double glazing as one of the insulation measures which qualify for grant aid, tax allowance or both.
Then there is the question of zero-rating for double glazing. This, I think, is most important; but here again there was a decision by the VAT tribunal, which is now being appealed against by Customs and Excise. I think it is very important that this form of insulation, double glazing, should be zero-rated so that it is an incentive. I believe we think of double

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glazing really as a kind of luxury for rich people, as keeping out the noise; rather like some local authorities think of the refrigerator as a lot of ice clinking about in glasses—something rather luxurious instead, of course, of its being something essential to health. Double glazing is not only important for keeping out noise; it is also important for keeping in the heat. The Government must really try to concentrate their minds on this, and do something to help householders who will install it by seeing that it is zero-rated, and also in ensuring that some of the grants that are given are more in line with what our partners are doing in Europe.
Lord Avebury: Perhaps I might add one or two words to those which have already been spoken by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. I remember a couple of years ago raising the question of the IIED Report in your Lordships' House, and my noble friend has reminded me of its excellent proposals for a low-energy strategy for the United Kingdom. I wonder whatever happened to those proposals? During the term of office of the previous Administration, for several years running I asked for the Department of Energy to examine a zero-growth energy scenario to see what kind of energy consumption patterns we could afford within such a long-term scenario —whether, by the use of much better insulation, we could accommodate improved energy uses in other directions, such as we were discussing a few minutes ago. If my noble friend's estimates are correct, of something like an 8 per cent. reduction in primary energy consumption through adopting proper insulation standards in existing dwellings, then obviously, over the timescale that he was talking about, between now and the year 2000, we could afford to have a very substantial increase in the other uses of energy within the home without any overall rise in domestic energy consumption.
But I wanted to add another point to that which my noble friend has already made, which I think is of some importance and which again follows an earlier debate that we had. Depending on how much of the energy used to heat homes is electrical, we have an additional saving through capital expenditure which is not necessary. If, by adopting these standards in existing dwellings, we reduce the amount of electricity that the inhabitants use to keep themselves comfortable in the winter, then we can reduce the generating board's capital investment programmes. Then we would have a saving, not just of the £1,000 million, or whatever it was that my noble friend mentioned, the cost of the primary energy that would be saved by this improved insulation, but probably a very much larger sum which we would not then have to invest in new generating plant and transmission equipment.
I know that the Central Electricity Generating Board does not need to expand its output at all at the moment, and that the stations that we are about to embark upon are solely to keep the plant industry busy; but I think that if one is looking at the matter over a much longer period of time we might find that several thousand millions of pounds worth of expenditure by the generating board, and by the two Scottish boards as well, would be avoided if the type of work that my
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noble friend is suggesting were undertaken. Of course he is not suggesting that we should immediately insulate every existing dwelling to the standards that we are prescribing for the new ones. What he is saying here is that we should look at the whole situation and find out what are the constraints and the barriers against the kind of insulation that we already have in the case of new houses applying to existing dwellings. So that at this time of economic stringency my noble friend is not suggesting a huge programme of Government intervention to persuade everybody to put in loft insulation, double glazing and the rest. What he is saying is: Let us take the work that has been done by the IIED, apply the skills and expertise of the Department of Energy to it, see what we come up with and, once we have all the facts and everybody is agreed on them, we can decide how to tackle this enormous problem.
Lord Monson: While acknowledging the admirable intentions of those who have moved this amendment, may I suggest that paragraph (b), at any rate, is superfluous, particularly in view of the urgent need to reduce Government expenditure. The financial obstacle to increased thermal insulation of existing domestic dwellings in England and Wales is pretty obvious, and is already fairly well known. Of the various forms of insulation available, only loft insulation, draught proofing and just possibly cavity wall insulation in the case of those houses which have cavity walls—and, of course, a great many houses do not have it—are really cost-effective in the sense that the owner occupier or landlord, as the case may be, can see a reasonable return on his or her capital invested in this new form of insulation. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, mentioned double glazing, but double glazing is not really cost-effective, and I doubt that zero-rating would make very much difference. Surely we do not need a new Quango to establish these facts.
6.28 p.m.
The Earl of Gowrie: The difficulty I am in is that I am in very substantial agreement with what many noble Lords have said, and, of course, the Government are interested, both literally and metaphorically, in energy conservation. But I am not sure that this particular Bill is the appropriate arena for what is being suggested, because I believe that this Bill will be most effective if it targets in on installations and appliances of the kind which we discussed in the earlier part of the debate. I would also argue that the Government already have a vigorous policy on domestic insulation, and that we do not, as it were, need to pursue it within the confines of this particular Bill other than in the way that we are seeking to add to it through the Bill. Of course we share the concern which underlies the amendment, the desire to see a reduction in the current levels of energy consumption in dwellings, but in practice the objectives of the amendment are already being tackled through other policies towards energy conservation.
We already have a wide range of data—and the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, called for a survey—on the extent to which dwellings do or do not incorporate various kinds of thermal insulation. That

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knowledge has been refined in further work which is already in hand. Where more insulation is needed, our general view is that its installation will be encouraged if we get the price of energy right and if householders are offered constant and adequate advice. A great deal of such advice is available in the form of pamphlets produced by the Department of Energy and through newspaper and television advertising as well as in other ways.
In the case of domestic installation, there is, in addition, a direct financial incentive already available to householders under the Homes Insulation Scheme in the form of grants for loft insulation and the tank and pipe lagging associated with it. If we leave aside the very cheap measures such as draught-stripping, where the cost of administering a grant would be disproportionate to the benefit, loft insulation is easily the most cost-effective basic measure that we could promote. It therefore makes sense to concentrate inevitably limited resources on that measure.
I am glad that, as well as raising the general issues of people's desire not to be over-governed, my noble friend Lord Monson drew attention to the necessity to contain expenditure not least in the interests of conservation of energy and other resources. I think a lot of progress has been made and we have given further encouragement by two recent announcements: in August we introduced a special higher rate of grant for the elderly on low incomes so that they can now get up to 90 per cent. of the cost of materials and labour; and last month it was announced that the total money available for grants would be increased next year by 30 per cent. in real terms.
The Committee will see that our commitment to energy conservation remains high. In addition, local authorities are insulating their own housing stock. Although there is no longer a separate allocation for this work, because the Government prefer to leave each authority free to decide its own housing priorities, this work is continuing on a significant scale: rather more, I would suggest, than one would imagine from reading the not disinterested press handouts—and why should they be?—of insulation manufacturers. The inclusion of thermal insulation in new housing, private and public, is guaranteed by the requirements of the building regulations; and the Government propose to make these more stringent in the near future because, again, while wishing to interfere as little as we can, we recognise the central national importance, as well as the importance to individual consumers, of saving fuel in the home. So we are moving steadily towards a situation in which new and existing housing will include thermal insulation up to the levels which are currently cost effective.
On the issue of double glazing which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, raised, a study from the Department of Energy has indicated that double glazing is only cost effective when it is in the main living room of a house and that very often it is installed on a do-it-yourself basis rather than being professionally installed; because that can add very considerable cost to the householder, although he or she should be free to make use of those services if they wish. What I am trying to say is that as energy prices rise and further research and development brings down the costs of technologically more
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advanced conservation measures, we shall encourage further insulation as it in turn becomes cost-effective.
Lord Avebury: Before leaving the subject of double glazing, I wonder whether the noble Earl would agree that the cost effectiveness of double glazing, whether in the principal room of the dwelling or anywhere else, must depend on what are called the "degree days"— the number of days multiplied by the number of degrees that the temperature falls below a certain level. This varies considerably from one part of England and Wales to another. While double glazing may not be effective in the heart of London, where the temperature during the winter is reasonably high, if one were on the North East coast of England, then there might be a sound economic case for double glazing the whole dwelling.
The Earl of Gowrie: I take that point. Speaking for myself, I would view preliminary studies on the cost effectiveness of double glazing with some scepticism. I think the certain point is the point that I have mentioned earlier: that the first thing you should do in any part of the country is to insulate your loft. In this country heat escape through the roof is probably the biggest factor. If you should happen to live on the North-East coast, or in any part of the South of England but in an exposed position, you might consider that certain of your rooms would benefit very much from double glazing. What I think we are trying to signal to the consumer is that the double glazing industry is a perfectly respectable one but it is very competitive and very pushing (if you like) and it may occasionally give expectations as to savings which, while they may be justified in certain cases, would not be justified in others. Have a look at the loft first and go hit by bit.
I myself have great hope of the development in the next decade or so of microchip meters which can tell you accurately what you are spending; and then, by experimenting with different forms of insulation in the house, you get a positive read-back on what the real costs are. I think that these technical changes are likely to take place over the next decade.
We are in an area of continuous development and change. A major review geared to a given moment in time, as envisaged in this amendment, is therefore not appropriate as it cannot gear itself to such continuing change in the way that price signalling can do so. A clause of this kind does not seem to me to be needed to secure a Government commitment because, as I have tried to indicate, we are committed very heavily in cost terms already. We recognise the importance of the intention underlying the amendment, but we do not regard it as an appropriate addition in the context of this particular Bill.
Lord Strabolgi: Before my noble friend replies, may I ask the noble Earl in view of what he said about double glazing why it is that in every European country on the Continent the incentives apply to all forms of domestic insulation; whereas the grants available in this country exclude double glazing? Our partners on the Continent attach importance to this. This seems to be a case where the United Kingdom is the only one in step.
The Earl of Gowrie: Our partners on the Continent have a continental climate.
Lord Strabolgi: Not all of them.
The Earl of Gowrie: Not all, I agree; but some do. I do not have information as to the relative use of double glazing in this country and on the Continent. I do not in any way wish to discourage people from installing double glazing. Many people do so. Apart from questioning the general point made by this amendment which is not specifically geared to double glazing, I question whether that is not another instance where the right price signals, and people's response to them freely, are not the most appropriate way by which the same result might be achieved.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: The noble Earl has put the case very persuasively but I do not think he has really covered it. Let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Monson, that no Quango is the slightest bit involved. By definition, I think, the Secretary of State cannot himself be a Quango. It is he whom we are suggesting should do the things which are necessary here. Nor, I think, are we talking about any great sum of money. We know that a certain amount of study of potential energy savings has been done already. To turn that into a national one by extrapolation and other techniques would not cost very much. Nor would determining the obstacles, nor would establishing a target, nor would formulating proposals and policies. What we come up against here is a straight division between the Government and, certainly, those of us who occupy both sets of Benches on this side of the Committee. We think this is an absolutely genuine matter where the Government should be making a survey and not just leaving it to developments which no doubt will happen and will have some effect through the course of the market economy and through the new inventions which the noble Earl spoke about. I was most interested in what he was saying. This is a question where we differ on what should be in this Bill. There is no point in disguising it and I suggest that we test the opinion of the House.
6.41 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 20) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 34; Not-Contents, 50.

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

Hale, L.

Ampthill, L.

Hampton, L.

Amulree, L.

Hooson, L.

Avebury, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Balogh, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L. (Teller.)

Melchett, L.

Ogmore, L.

Birk, B.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Seear, B.

Collison, L.

Segal, L.

Craigavon, V.

Stone, L.

Denington, B.

Strabolgi, L.(Teller.)

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Tanlaw, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

George-Brown, L.

Underhill, L.

Gladwyn, L.

White, B.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

300

NOT-CONTENTS

Abercorn, D.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Ailesbury, M.

Inglewood, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Lauderdale, E.

Avon, E.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Bethell, L.

Long, V.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Cathcart, E.

Lyell, L.

Cockfield, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Colville of Culross, V.

Marley, L.

Colwyn, L.

Monson, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Morris, L.

Denham, L.(Teller.)

Mottistone, L.

Digby, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Norfolk, D.

Ellenborough, L.

Orkney, E.

Ferrers, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Glasgow, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Glenarthur, L.

Sandys, L.

Gowrie, E.

Shannon, E.

Greenway, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Strathclyde, L.

Sudeley, L.

Swinfen, L.

Halsbury, E.

Trefgarne, L.

Han worth, V.

Tweeddale, M.

Henley, L.

Westbury, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.49 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 21:
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
(" Amendment of Electricity Act 1957
. After subsection (5) of section 2 of the Electricity Act 1957, there shall be added the following subsection—
"(5A) In executing its duties under subsection (5) of this section, the Generating Board shall promote economy and efficiency in the use of energy and shall, in particular, further the development of methods by which heat obtained from or in connection with the generation of electricity may be used more efficiently for the heating of buildings, or for any other useful purpose.".").
The noble Lord said: The use of various power sources to provide combined heat and power for the heating of buildings and, indeed, of towns and villages, is something which has not gone very far in this country. District heating of this particular kind is much more widespread in various European countries. Roughly 20 per cent. of Sweden's space and water heating is by district heating of which the largest amount comes from combined heat and power. The same is true, roughly speaking—there are some similar figures—in Scandinavia; and to a certain extent this also happens in the Soviet Union. They are all, of course, colder countries than Great Britain is on the whole.
Now that we need to look at energy conservation it is quite clear that one of the obvious areas that we need to look at is the most enormous wastage of energy which comes from electricity generation—and there is a very great deal of it. This amendment is based on a clause which was put forward for inclusion in the abortive Electricity Bill of 1978; that was put forward by the Labour Government. The reason why we have chosen this particular method for putting forward combined heat and power is that seemingly the Central Electricity Generating Board has no remit to go beyond producing electricity. It does not have

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a remit to use its waste products. For that reason, it can well be forgiven if it does not spend a very great deal of time and trouble on trying to do something about it. But in the national interest, it is very important that we have combined heat and power and that we are able to use that where it is appropriate.
I know that there has been a report on this—the Marshall Report, Energy Paper 35—and that it came to the conclusion that CHP could save energy and could be a viable option for heating buildings in areas of high density heat load, particularly in the longer term. I think that in some of its other findings it was over pessimistic. It did not really stop to consider some of the alternative costs that there might be in providing energy in other ways and it assumed some technologies which have now been superseded.
Be that as it may, I should have thought that there was a very strong case, if we are to go forward with combined heat and power—and I hope that we are; I think this is common ground on all sides of the Committee—for giving a body which already deals with these matters, and which produces a great deal of the energy which would go towards this heating, a clear, statutory obligation to promote and use it. If we did that, we would find that matters went ahead remarkably fast and the results could be nothing less than phenomenal.
I am not pretending that it is easy to convert to combined heat and power. It is not. I am not pretending that we shall be able to do a very great deal very quickly. I do not think that we shall, particularly in our economic state. But the fact remains that the average conversion efficiency of the CEGB's power stations is just under 30 per cent., and that, if you use combined heat and power, primary fuels can be utilised with an overall efficiency of up to 85 per cent. It is this kind of difference that we must overcome, if we are not to waste our basic fuels. They are finite and, if we do not take the utmost steps that we can to conserve them now, we shall regret it in the future. I think that this is a sensible but very minor step to take. I beg to move.
Lord Strabolgi: I should like to support this amendment. As my noble friend Lord Beaumont has said, under the 1957 Act it is the central duty of the Central Electricity Generating Board to provide an efficient, co-ordinated and economical system of supply of electricity. But here the accent is on the word "electricity". That is quite understandable, since the 1957 Act was passed nearly 25 years ago and, of course, things have changed. Our whole concept of energy conservation has changed in that quarter of a century.
As the noble Lord has said, the amendment is based on a clause in the Electricity Bill of 1978, which came to nothing because of the election, and I think that there is every case for having another look at it. We shall be interested to hear the Government's view.
The Earl of Gowrie: This is another case where the Government are in complete accord with both noble Lords who have spoken. But, of course, it will be no surprise, also, that we do not feel that the beauty of this accord needs expression in this Bill, because there
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is already a duty to investigate and conduct research among the duties which are already laid on the Central Electricity Generating Board, under Section 50 of the Electricity Act 1947, and the amendment quotes much of this section verbatim.
Like both noble Lords who have spoken, I am very keen on the development of combined heat and power in this country, and the Government hope to announce shortly a number of local authority areas where feasibility work on CHP schemes will be carried out. I might remind the Committee that on 2nd April last year my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced the action that the Government would be taking in the light of Dr. Walter Marshall's recommendations in the Marshall group's report. It was decided on energy policy grounds that CHP was an option that should be kept open, and that the next stage was to establish a programme of work to test the feasibility in particular locations, where the local authority concerned expressed an interest in becoming a lead city. I seem to remember having the privilege of telling the House about that move last year.
Messrs. Atkins and Partners started work in August as the department's lead consultant for the first stage of this programme. They have now completed the first part of this stage, producing a report which gives their recommendations on the areas which should be the subject of more detailed appraisal. We shall be considering this report, along with the comments made on it by the interested local authorities, and announcing our decision shortly. The electricity supply industry is participating fully in the programme of work. Legislation is not required to enable them to participate, although all the legislative aspects of CHP development will, as I have said, be kept under review as the programme goes forward.
On a different scale, it is rather like our attitudes to double glazing which I expressed earlier in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. We are thoroughly in favour of it, but we find that there is sufficient activity in this area to warrant, in the case of double glazing the Government keeping back. In the case of CHP, the Government and local authorities are, of course, much more intimately involved. I acknowledge that it is possible that at some stage further legislation will be desirable to govern the development of CHP in this country. But I do not think anyone argues that this stage has yet been reached, and we do not see any real purpose in re-enacting existing legislative provisions which are already substantially enforced in this Bill.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: I am not totally convinced by the noble Earl's arguments. It seems to me that he has not at all put up a case against making this amendment, except that it is unnecessary, and I do not think he has proven that entirely. I still think that to give the CEGB a statutory duty in this field would be a useful step. But I do not think that it is worth arguing about. I appreciate that the Government are going forward in this field and I am delighted that they are. If the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, agrees, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 16, 17 and 18 agreed to.
Clause 19 [Enforcement of orders under Part I]:
7 p.m.
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved amendment No. 22:
Page 17, line 6, leave out ("examine any appliance, inspect") and insert ("inspect any appliance, and").
The noble Earl said: The amendment removes the power of an enforcement officer to examine an appliance for the purpose of ascertaining whether any offence under an order made under Part I of the Bill has been committed, and substitutes for this power to examine the power to inspect an appliance. The difference is, simply, that the power to examine includes the power to test; the power to inspect does not.
This is a very minor change. We have had representations from a trade association to the effect that the powers in Clause 19(2)(a) as at present drafted are not entirely appropriate. At present this clause would give enforcement officers, who will generally be local authority trading standards officers, the power to examine appliances for the purpose of ascertaining whether an offence under an order made under Part I of the Bill has been committed. Clause 26 provides that the power to examine includes the power to test but, as I explained during the Second Reading debate, we envisage that enforcement officers will simply make visual checks, primarily to see that the appliances which ought to bear type approval marks do in fact bear them. Therefore the amendment is intended to reflect this position. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 25 agreed to.
Clause 26 [Interpretation]:
The Earl of Gowrie The Earl of Gowrie moved Amendments Nos. 23 to 27:
Page 21, line 22, at beginning insert—
(" ( ) In this Act "supply" means, in relation to any appliance, supply in the course of a business, whether by way of sale, hire, loan, hire-purchase (that is to say, under a hire-purchase agreement) exchange or gift; but where the person supplying an appliance to another person under a hire-purchase agreement, conditional sale agreement, credit sale agreement or hiring agreement (other than a hire-purchase agreement)—

(a) carries on the business of financing the provision of goods for others by means of such agreements (whether or not that business is confined to financing the provision of appliances of the description in question); and

(b) in the course of that business acquired his interest in the appliance supplied to that other person as a means of financing the provision of that appliance for the other person by a third person;

the person providing the appliance and not the actual supplier shall be treated for the purposes of this Act as supplying the goods to the other person.")
Page 21, line 25, leave out ("has the meaning given in") and insert ("credit-sale agreement' and 'hire-purchase agreement' have the meanings given by section 189(1) of")
Page 21, line 25, leave out lines 33 and 34.
Page 21, line 38, at end insert ("and")
Page 22, line 9, leave out from ("purpose)") to end of line 13.
The noble Earl said: I spoke to Amendments Nos. 23 to 27 with Amendment No. 14. Therefore I beg to move Amendments Nos. 23 to 27 en bloc.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28 [Citation]:
7.5 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 22, line 31, leave out ("Energy Conservation") and insert ("Heat Generator (Efficiency) and Miscellaneous Energy Provisions").
The noble Lord said: I touched earlier on this amendment. Despite the very strong and very welcome commitment that the noble Earl the Minister has given to energy conservation in all that he has said this evening, I do not think that this Bill is really worthy of its rather grandiose Title. I do not think the Government have done very much by way of legislation. They would, I think fairly, answer that their way of coping with the problem is not so much through legislation as through other channels. That is something which we can certainly appreciate, even those of us who think that more legislation is in fact needed.
To claim that as a result of this an energy conservation Bill is being put on the statute book is a little grandiose. Therefore both the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and I have put down this amendment to call it by what we think is a more accurate name: the Heat Generator (Efficiency) and Miscellaneous Energy Provisions Bill. The noble Earl the Minister has already told us that he has a satisfactory answer and we look forward to hearing it. I beg to move.
Lord Strabolgi: I should like to support what my noble friend Lord Beaumont of Whitley has said. I agree with him that the Title is misleading and grandiose. I feel very strongly that the Titles of Bills should describe what they set out to do. Too often in modern history they have been used for quite other purposes. A Bill entitled "Energy Conservation" looks very good from the point of view of the Conservative Party, just as the Bill entitled "Consumer Protection" looked very good from the point of view of the Labour Party when they were in Government from 1964 to 1970. I was not a member of that Administration so 1 can speak freely. It was a Bill which protected the consumer but it also protected the supplier, the manufacturer, the advertising agents, the retailer and a lot of other people. Due to help from the noble Lord, Lord Airedale—I am sorry he is not here today —and other noble Lords, we had its Title changed from Consumer Protection Bill to Trade Descriptions Bill—which indeed it was. The Labour Government of the day accepted the point we made and changed the name of the Bill.
Another point is that when, years hence, you come to the index of Acts of Parliament, it is very important that those Acts should be in their right place. Lawyers, and so on, 20 to 30 years hence will try to find the Act which deals with the efficiency of heat generators. They are not going to find it under "E"—under "Energy conservation". Therefore, I think there is a strong case for the present Government following the precedent of the former Labour Government and changing the Title of the Bill to describe what it attempts to do.
The Earl of Gowrie: I take the point of both noble Lords. Nevertheless, in both parties we have perhaps

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advanced in recent years beyond the stage where we rest our appeal to the public simply upon the quantity of legislation passed, or upon its title. Perhaps one achieves more popularity now by telling the public that one has passed less rather than more legislation. I do not think therefore that this is a sinister attempt by a particular political administration to try to indicate that it is delivering more than it is able to. What we are trying to achieve in this title is brevity, concision and accuracy of description.
The Bill certainly is about conserving energy and it tries to achieve it in an expeditious and cost-effective way. The proposed rewording mentions heat generators but not gas appliances; so historians looking for gas appliances, supposing they were so inclined, would it seems to me be equally misled. I should have thought they would be looking for both heat generators and gas appliances in the context of what this economy as a whole was doing about energy conservation.
I acknowledge that many other aspects of the Government's overall energy policies are not covered by this Bill, but it is fair for me to ask the Committee to acknowledge that supposing we had a massive "Energy Conservation Bill" which contained all aspects of our energy conservation policy, it would be quite incompatible with other bits of legislation that exist, whether put on the statute book by Conservative or Labour Administrations, and which have the same worthy aims. Surely a policy is a grand design, of which a constituent piece of legislation is a component part. One Administration of a particular political character may try to give a special impact or special drive to that design. But when we look at energy conservation in the general sense we see that Governments of both political persuasions have in recent years found the most urgent national interests, as have other western nations, in trying to conserve energy in this country. Therefore, I think it would be quite impossible to correlate all the housing regulations or all the social security provisions relating to energy conservation in a Bill of this kind.
I think I must rest on that general, if rather subjective, view. I cannot think of a better title, in that the Bill is about energy conservation and it says so. I am sorry if it appears to suggest a rather wider area than the area it covers, but I think common sense would suggest that energy conservation is such a general issue that it could never be covered entirely in one Bill. 1 am honestly bothered by the proposed re-wording, which mentions heat generators but not gas appliances, which are also covered by Part I of the Bill. I prefer to leave it at that.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: When the noble Earl said earlier that he hoped to have an argument to convince us, I thought it would be a little more persuasive than that. I thought he would be pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Incidentally, the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, very kindly refers to me as his "noble friend" does not mean that the noble Earl the Minister should presume that there are only two parties in the House. The tendency in politics at the moment is rather the other way. But, in the circumstances, I do not think it is worth arguing about the title and if the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, agrees, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 29 not moved.]
House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.

Control of Pollution (Special Waste) Regulations 1980
7.13 p.m.
Lord Digby Lord Digby rose to move, That a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Control of Pollution (Special Waste) Regulations 1980 [S.I. 1980 No. 1709] laid before the House on 17th November 1980 be annulled.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Motion seeks to annul these regulations which are due to come into operation on 16th March. That date is significant since the regulations arc intended to discharge the obligations of the United Kingdom under the EEC directive on toxic and dangerous waste of 20th March 1978 and I believe that the Government are determined to bring in the new regulations before the third anniversary of that directive.
My reasons for taking this rather unusual step arise from the grave disquiet expressed by those whose duty it is to administer these new regulations and also, I believe, by industry itself. Since the subject is excessively technical, I hope the House will bear with me if I take some little time to explain the history of the matter. One of the hazards of living in an increasingly technological age is the disposal of waste products from industry. Many of these are extremely dangerous and furthermore, as science expands, its capacity to produce and its range of waste products grows and becomes startlingly more complex.
In the early '70s, following intense public concern over the haphazard dumping of toxic waste, legislation was enacted—the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act 1972. It is true to say that this legislation was rushed on to the statute book. However, although legislation made in haste is frequently bad, in fact the system of controlling poisonous waste introduced by that Act has proved both workable and effective. The present system of control in accordance with that Act applies to any quantity or concentration of waste that may constitute a serious hazard to life, health or the environment. Waste disposal authorities can decide for themselves whether any waste constitutes such a hazard. In practice a general understanding has been built up with industry as to which wastes are likely to be involved. The Act is implemented by a system of notification, first, to the waste disposal authority in whose area the waste arises; secondly, to the waste disposal and water authorities in the area in which it is proposed to dispose of it and, thirdly, to the person who actually is to dispose of the waste. Notification is made in advance of the proposals to move the waste.
These new regulations make important changes. The most important of these relate to a new definition of the waste products that are to be controlled and the replacement of notifications with a "cradle to the grave" consignment note. The wastes identified by the present Act, that is to say those considered to be a hazard to life, to health or to the environment, will be replaced by three limited categories of special waste. These are, first, a list of 31 substances which have to be shown to be a danger to life or highly inflammable;

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secondly, any medicines available only on prescription; and, thirdly, certain radioactive wastes. It is estimated that the effect of these definitions will be to reduce the number of notifiable substances by as much as two-thirds.
The other significant change I have referred to is the replacement of the notification system by the consignment note which follows the waste all through its stages, from production to final disposal. The way it will operate means that regional water authorities, for instance, will no longer receive notification. Also the home waste disposal authority in whose area the waste is produced will not have the advance notice of the intended movement of the waste covered by the note, although they are responsible for the completion of the consignment note process.
Why then have the Government made these regulations? They will no doubt say that a system of licensing waste disposal sites which has been in existence for three years is adequate to deal with all but the most dangerous classes of waste product. They will point to the consequential reduction in administrative and bureaucratic procedures, because fewer wastes will require notification. They will no doubt pray in aid the EEC directive as authority for what they are doing. No doubt these are all laudable aims but we arc dealing with very dangerous matters over which the public has a right to expect the most stringent controls.
I am a member of the Association of County Councils, which represents the 39 shire counties which are waste disposal authorities, and they are appalled by what is proposed. That is why they have taken the most unusual step of asking me to table this Motion. The ACC is not alone in this matter. The submission which some of your Lordships may have seen was jointly prepared by the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and the GLC, as well as the ACC. In Wales, district councils are waste disposal authorities, and I understand that they share our concern. The fact that all the local authority associations are able to achieve a unanimity of view on this matter may suggest the seriousness with which they view this change in the regulations.
I have reason to believe that it is not only local government that is concerned. I have seen a report of the conference held on this subject last October when Dr. Hicklish of the Ford Motor Company was quoted as having said:
"There will be appalling practical difficulties in establishing whether a waste falls within the regulations under the new procedure".
At least one commercial company active in this field has written to the ACC indicating its support for the action we are taking.
What are the matters which give rise to these doubts? First, there will be considerable numbers of waste products which will not be subject to the notification procedure under the new system which were under the old, and I will be giving some examples later. Broadly, these are the substances which are not hazardous to life, but which could be environmentally very damaging, for example, to water supplies. Secondly, the 31 substances listed in the regulations have also to be shown to be dangerous to life. That phrase is defined by reference to the threat to the life of a 20
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kilogramme child of five cubic centimetres of the substance. If someone has conducted toxicity experiments on 20 kilogramme children I hope they will get in touch with the local authorities, because I certainly have not heard of any experiments, and we do not know how else we are to obtain the information. Even disregarding young children, toxicological evidence of the effect of a wide variety of new and changing waste products on any mammals is not readily available.
Thirdly, as if that were not enough, it is the local authorities themselves who are expected to prove that any given substance falls within these definitions. The possibility is, therefore, that a particular substance might slip through the net through lack of information. The alternative is that the local authority is put to considerable difficulty and expense in conducting toxicity testing for which, as I am sure your Lordships realise, neither the funds nor the expertise are readily available. Unfortunately, someone disposed of some South American 'flu germs on me about a week ago, which is why I find it rather difficult to pronounce with a dry mouth some of the more difficult words.
Fourthly, the change in emphasis from the administrative control of waste to field control at licensed sites may be laudable in theory, but it is misconceived in practice. Waste disposal authorities themselves will have to deploy more highly qualified staffs at sites to conduct monitoring than they have to at the moment. The impact on certain areas could well be considerable. Technical staff qualified to recognise harmful waste will have to be maintained at each tip, which will be more expensive than centralised staff. Taking London as an example, the majority of the wastes now notifiable are routed outside London to sites such as those at Pitsea in Essex. Even supposing there were sufficient qualified staff to do the necessary inspections and analysis, the implications for public expenditure arc obvious.
Fifthly, the "cradle to the grave" consignment note has faults. This lies in the omission of the regional water authorities as a recipient, presumably because the water supplies arc no longer considered sufficiently important. I would have thought they are one of the most important people to be informed. And the lack of obligation for prior notification to the "home" local authority in advance of the despatch of toxic waste into the area of another authority is very serious. The "home" authority will have invaluable local knowledge of the nature of the waste, which needs to be passed on to the receiving authority in certain cases to avoid environmental hazard.
Sixthly, the haste with which the Government have put forward this proposal in order to comply with the EEC directive is. I am told by those who know about these things, in fact unnecessary. The directive would have been complied with simply by introducing the new consignment note procedure into the existing system, without the accompanying wholesale changes, and that system is working well.
Finally, a sub-committee of your Lordships' Committee on Science and Technology is currently conducting an inquiry into the disposal of hazardous and toxic wastes. It is a comprehensive and far-reaching exercise. We are hoping to give evidence to it. I believe it is premature for the Government to make

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such substantial changes to the control of such wastes in advance of the sub-committee reaching their conclusions.
What, then, do I ask the Government to do? I would hope that it is still possible for them to concede that the regulations have been misconceived. If they are concerned about their European obligations, there is still time for them to bring forward new regulations, dealing only with the new consignment note procedure. I would hope the noble Lord would give serious consideration to that possibility. The local authority associations, however, are reasonable bodies, and they remain willing to attempt to implement the new system if only the Government would bring forward some amending regulations, to take effect on the same day in March, which could make the regulations workable. I do not propose to subject your Lordships to the tedium of listing all the matters that would be covered by these regulations, but they have been submitted to the department, and those of your Lordships who have received the copy of the local authority associations' brief will know what they are. Suffice it to say that they would mitigate the worst features of these regulations.
Before I sit down I would like to tell your Lordships one or two particular horror stories of things that are likely to happen if these regulations go through. First, some stuff called "bog ore", a waste from old gas works, will totally sterilise the ground on which it is deposited, preventing anything from growing. Further, rain on this will produce an acid leachate which, if it runs into streams, will kill all stream life; and under the regulations this would not require notification. Secondly, the interreaction of substances. A relatively dilute acid combined with a sulphide, neither of which would be considered toxic, can rapidly produce hydrogen sulphide gas which is extremely toxic. Your Lordships may remember that such a combination caused the death of a tanker driver at a tip in Essex, even in the open air.
Thirdly, there is no provision in the regulations for dealing with the same mercury wastes which caused minamata disease in Japan. Sludges from the chloralkali industry contain mercury which can on being deposited be changed by bacteria into the more toxic and exceedingly dangerous methyl mercury. These wastes are not defined as toxic by the regulations. I can speak with some feeling on the subject of mercury wastes, as an ancestor of mine, who was a founder member of the Royal Society and so should have known better, was determined to maintain the beauty of his wife. He invented a face cream for her. Unfortunately, it contained mercury and killed her. Even the fact that Van Dyck was at hand to paint her on her death bed did not console the distraught husband. Toxic waste is dangerous, and I implore the Government to think again before headlines of disaster appear in the press. I beg to move.
Moved, That a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Control of Pollution (Special Waste) Regulations 1980 [S.I. 1980 No. 1709] laid before the House on 17th November 1980 be annulled.—(Lord Digby.)
7.30 p.m.
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I think that this is possibly
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the first time, or one of the very few times, when I find myself not only ad idem, but almost word for word ad idem, with the noble Lord, Lord Digby, who has so clearly explained the history and consequences of these resolutions if they go through. Normally, it would be a great occasion to welcome the implementation of some of the provisions of the Control of Pollution Act because I, as a Minister, was very impatient that we were not able to do that; and as succeeding Governments have come along it has always been held up for such reasons as lack of resources and lack of time. However, for the provisions to come through in this way now is certainly something which it is not only impossible to welcome but something which one views with the greatest alarm.
Cutting down bureaucracy and diminishing the number of pieces of paper floating around is also something upon which we can all agree, but certainly not at the price we are being asked to pay in the regulations that we are considering this evening. The noble Lord, Lord Digby, was absolutely right when he referred not only to the unaniminity of the local authority organisations, but also of the other people who are showing, and will increasingly show, very great concern about this matter. I would go as far as to say that although today there has been a considerable amount of important business in your Lordships' House, I consider that this is the most important matter that we have discussed today, and the fact that the House is rather slim in attendance is irrelevant to the material. When other noble Lords learn what this is all about, I think that they will feel as shocked as many noble Lords who are here this evening.
The word is also spreading among Members of Parliament. The environmental groups are getting very exercised about the matter. Academics and responsible waste disposal contractors feel very strongly about it, as do many manufacturing industries of which the noble Lord, Lord Digby, gave an example. I am sure that that feeling goes right through the waste disposal industry. I find it rather a mystery that none of us "cottoned on" to this a little sooner and before the 40 days almost elapse, but I assure the noble Earl and the Government that there will be one hell of a row about this, because once it is publicised and people realise what it is all about there will be a backlash which I think will surprise the Government unless they take the advice of those of us who are prepared to give them good advice tonight as to how they should proceed.
We have seen concern throughout the country about nuclear radiation, and toxicity—and even without 'flu germs I find that a difficult word to pronounce—is of equal or even greater concern. It is absolutely correct that increased technology means more processes producing more waste that is dangerous to people, animals, or the environment—or all three. I feel very sad that this emanated from my old department I cannot think what happened to many of the officials with whom I worked very happily; some sort of aberration must have occurred. It seems curious and quite irresponsible that at this time, when technology is on the increase, when new processes are coming along and industry is being encouraged to promote them, they should then take a step back as regards protection

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for the individual and for the environment. That is exactly what is happening as regards this matter.
As the noble Lord said, the EEC directive is covered as far as consignment notes are concerned. But the definition of "toxicity", which we now have in these regulations, is not only different from that in the 1972 Act, but quite different from the EEC directive, which makes this an even more retrograde change. The EEC directive says that the essential objective of all provisions relating to the disposal of toxic or dangerous waste must be the protection of human health and safeguarding the environment against harmful effects. But what do these regulations do? They denotify approximately two-thirds of hazardous waste.
Under the 1972 Act everything was hazardous unless on the excluded list. Obviously, I accept that a balance is needed between the protection of health and the environment and the needs of industry. There is a case probably for a sharper definition of "toxic waste". The removal of the requirement to inform the water authorities would also save 50 per cent. of the paperwork, because the knowledge of that would come through other means anyway, so it would no longer be necessary.
But there certainly is no case for the "Pica" child concept. In fact, if the concept that five cubic centimetres would cause death or serious damage to a 20 kilogram child were not so serious, it would be absolutely hilarious. It belongs to "Beyond the Fringe" or something like that. Like the noble Lord, Lord Digby, I should like to know whether experiments have been carried out in order to give this scientific validity to which we are entitled. What research has been carried out? Further, what would be the courts' interpretation if any case were brought? How would the local authorities prosecute with any hope of success? What about the costs of prosecution when we have this very vague and open-ended definition?
Then, of course, there are the administrative difficulties. Even if all other things were equal—which they certainly are not—the administrative difficulties could defeat, I was going to say the "well meaning" intention. However, it is really extremely misguided. I shall give the benefit of the doubt, and say that if it is well-meaning, it is cock-eyed to such an extent that it is so highly dangerous that the effects cannot be described as well-meaning at all.
The information that local authorities have of waste disposal in their area is certainly not as good as has obviously been assumed. They have never had a chance to get it going, and that is known perfectly well in the department as well as by the local authorities.
Now, with the tremendously heavy cut in resources on all local authorities, the prospects are even more gloomy. The compulsion as regards the date of completion of the survey and the production of the waste disposal plan disappeared in the Local Government Act 1980. So, at a time of constraint and restriction, these regulations are brought in. They depend on expertise, on monitoring and on very high-calibre people. The whole system hinges on documentary control. Without unique reference numbers on consignment notices it will be extremely difficult, probably impossible, to monitor the whole process.
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There is no requirement on a firm disposing of its waste to notify its own waste disposal authority if the waste is going outside the area. At the moment, they have to do so, but that requirement will disappear under these regulations. Notification is absolutely essential, since it is the home local authority which has the knowledge of the industrial processes in its own area. An example springs to mind in the London area, when a London firm notified that it was going to dispose of glue residues in a land-filled site in Cheshire. Since they have to notify the home authority, London immediately recognised the environmental hazard as the glue was a liquid solvent. It tipped Cheshire off. Otherwise the glue would have been put into a land-filled site in a very sensitive area. There is nothing to take the place of this important communication in what is altogether a very toxic subject. I query whether there is sufficient highly-calibred expertise available. I do not believe that it is there. Even if it is there, how on earth can anyone afford such people today? What a day to bring about this sort of regulation! It is almost beyond belief.
Finally—as the noble Lord, Lord Digby, put it—this action is absolutely devastatingly and, I would say, disgracefully premature, because the House of Lords Select Committee on Science and Technology is looking into the whole subject of the organisation and method of hazardous waste disposal. The committee is still receiving evidence; it has not even had a chance to consider the evidence. What is the point, at public expense, with the work and time of Members of that committee being taken up, of it sitting and working, when a decision like this is taken before it has even had a chance to make its recommendations or to come to its conclusions?
I join with the noble Lord, Lord Digby, in his hope that the Minister will not just say in a very polite and charming way that he will note what noble Lords have said and report back to his right honourable friend, but that—because he must have had some inkling of what he would be faced with this evening—following the recommendations of the House of Lords Select Committee, with further proper consultation on this paper as it is now, the Government will then bring in amending legislation on Part I and Schedule 1 of these regulations. As regards the rest, the document can stand. But it would be an absolute catastrophe if this part, which is so important to our health and to our environment, remained in its present form. I hope that when the noble Earl replies, he will be able to assure us along those lines.
7.42 p.m.
Lord Greenwood of Rossendale: My Lords, I entirely agree with what my noble friend has said, and I am particularly grateful to her for the very constructive way in which she has expressed her point of view. But I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Digby, for the signal favour that he has done the House by drawing our attention to these regulations tonight. Perhaps many of his colleagues in this noble House might have got off the mark more quickly than they did, and I must plead guilty to that. But the fact that he was there and anxious to take up the cudgels is, I think, greatly to his credit and something which puts the House in his debt.

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I am increasingly worried about the reckless disregard of safety measures in this country. I think that it is absolutely crazy to import nuclear waste into the United Kingdom. It is even crazier to take it around the country on the railways. An accident could do untold harm—the sort of harm that it is almost impossible for us to envisage. Now, when people are getting really alarmed about the impact of nuclear waste and other waste upon the community, the Government are encouraging the local authorities to take the problem less seriously than they have been taught to do since the 1972 Act. That must be wrong. I think that my noble friend Lady Birk is so right in what she has said. If I could put the point of view of the noble Lord, Lord Digby, in a rather different way, it cannot be right that two-thirds of the waste which is now regarded, under the 1972 Act, as environmentally significant will be non-notifiable if the regulations become the law. It really is a most unsatisfactory regulation.
This morning I had the pleasure of spending some time with Mr. Geoffrey Waterer, the chairman of the ACC's Consumer Services Committee. He expanded at some length on the kind of horrors to which the noble Lord, Lord Digby, drew our attention. Mr. Waterer has been the chairman of Essex County Council which covers one of the areas most seriously affected by toxic wastes; the Lancashire county council, which is seriously affected, too, has also been in touch with me, as have many of the metropolitan authorities. When one thinks of the problem that waste constitutes, in counties such as Essex and Lancashire, and probably large parts of South Wales, one is horrified that the Government are taking this rather casual approach to the problem.
I do not want to speak at length, because many noble Lords want to take part in this brief debate. However, I believe that the definition is utterly unsatisfactory. I think that it is grossly at variance with the views of my noble friend Lady White, who I hope will take part in the debate, and who, with the noble Lord, Lord Ashby, has made the most tremendous contribution to the study of the impact of waste on the environment in Great Britain. However, I hope that my noble friend will express herself on that tonight.
I simply say that I believe that the definition of "toxicity" is completely unsatisfactory, and I hope that the Government will accede to the suggestion from my noble friend Lady Birk that there should be amending legislation. If they do say that, there would be no harm in these regulations going through, but it is a most inept and badly calculated piece of legislation.
Lord Lucas of Chilworth: My Lords, I should like, briefly, to intervene in this evening's debate purely as a member of your Lordships' Committee on Science and Technology, which—as the noble Lord, Lord Digby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, said—set up a sub-committee only last November to consider the whole area of hazardous toxic waste disposals. I have no doubt that the chairman of the committee, the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, would have wished to take part in this evening's debate, but he is unavoidably detained at meetings in Manchester. When he discussed this matter with me last week we agreed the
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line that might be taken this evening, so that anything I say is said with his agreement.
My noble friend Lord Digby has drawn attention—as, indeed, have the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, and the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood of Rossendale—to the fears expressed not only by the waste disposal authorities but also by the county councils and others to these regulations. As I said, the sub-committee was convened only last November. It is currently taking evidence on these and many other matters.
I fear to tell your Lordships that the committee's deliberations are likely to take somewhat longer than was first anticipated. It may very well be some months —perhaps many months—rather than weeks before that committee is able to report. As my noble friend said, this is because this is a dangerous matter. It is not a matter that can be most easily considered. I should not like to mislead your Lordships this evening by attempting to answer one side or the other. I think that that might very well be misleading. Indeed, any impression that I personally may have gained in the few weeks that this committee has sat has not been endorsed by my noble colleagues, and it would be far better if I stay purely and simply on that one side.
The committee has given consideration to the regulations since they have been tabled. It took note of my noble friend's prayer. We would assure your Lordships that anything that is said tonight will be given very careful consideration, as will all the evidence that will undoubtedly come forward as a result of the publicity and the prominence given to this matter this evening. If I do not give any indication as to which way the committee may or may not move in this particular matter, I would ask my noble friend Lord Avon on the Front Bench for an assurance that, whatever may happen later this evening, this committee's deliberations and subsequent report will be equally well considered by the Government at whatever time it may come out.
The matter under discussion this evening is perhaps not quite as narrow as my noble friend illustrated. It is right to consider the whole question of a national policy for hazardous waste disposal. I think it is equally right that I should draw your Lordships' attention to the wideness of the investigation that the committee is currently carrying out. It will hopefully report before the end of this year, although it will certainly be many months hence; and it is hoped that the report will be helpful in determining any action that the Government may wish to take in so far as a national policy is concerned.
7.52 p.m.
The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness White): My Lords, I am indeed grateful, as indeed are all other Members of the House, to the noble Lord, Lord Digby, for having raised this matter. I sympathise with him over the influenza germ, I also having suffered a little while past from that affliction. But I must with all due gratitude to him, say that I feel that the local authority associations between them could have taken steps to see that those of us in this House who are interested in this matter but who are not in the privileged position of the members of the Select Committee on Science and Technology received their papers before this morning.

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I was in Wales over the weekend. There was a notice on the Order Paper only last Thursday, as I understand it, that the noble Lord proposed to raise this matter, and frankly I have been too much preoccupied today with other matters to which I had to attend to be able to give adequate attention to this subject. Therefore, with the greatest possible personal gratitude to the noble Lord, I feel that the local authority associations have rather let down some of us who are closely interested in this matter.
I have received the notes from the Association of County Councils who, as they remind us on their letter heading, represent a population of some 30 million, in which they say:
"In their present form the Association of County Councils believes that the regulations would be unworkable, inadequate, and virtually unenforceable, but up to now the Environment Department has refused to introduce amendments considered essential by the Association".
That is a strong expression of opinion from one of the major local authority associations in this country, and entirely justifies the noble Lord, Lord Digby, in raising this matter tonight.
I should perhaps say that in the few hours that I have had, interspersed with other business, to master this subject and refresh my memory of my previous interest in it, I found that this particular statutory instrument was singularly unloved anywhere but in the Department of the Environment, so it seems. None of the local authority associations I have been able to contact today has anything good to say of it. It seems to me that the Government should be very careful as to the response they give tonight in the face of this virtually unanimous condemnation of the statutory instrument as presented to us by Her Majesty's Government.
I should perhaps explain that I am a member of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, and have been for some years. I am also chairman of the European Economic Community Select Committee of your Lordships' House, and also chairman of the Sub-Committee on the Environment, which reported on the draft directive as long ago as 1976. There has been plenty of time for this matter to be thoroughly considered, and for the consultations—which have been rather hurried, as I understand it, in the last few months —to have taken place much sooner than they appear to have done.
My other interest in this matter is particularly because I am much concerned with the administrative pattern in Wales. In the Principality the disposal authorities for waste, including toxic waste, are the district councils, not the counties. We have 37 districts in Wales. I shall come to the Welsh aspect of this matter in a moment or two. Whether the English counties are able to cope or not seems extremely doubtful. A fortiori, the Welsh districts are very unlikely to be able to cope, and have said so publicly and also through the Welsh Office to the Department of the Environment.
Perhaps it is indicative of the way in which the Department of the Environment does not even now appreciate the difference between the English pattern of administration and the Welsh that they did not even make certain that copies of the proposed statutory
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instrument were sent at all to the district councils in Wales. They sent a copy by grace to what is called the Council of the Principality, which is the Association of District Councils in Wales, and the environmental health officers concerned also, I think through their own headquarters, received a copy. Both bodies have expressed their deep concern at the difficulties which they foresee should this statutory instrument, these regulations, be accepted tonight and should there be no undertaking that there would be further amending legislation before they come into effect next March.
May I take my European Economic Community interest first? I should be grateful if the noble Earl would clarify the situation as to the true relationship of these regulations with the directive of the Community of 1978, to which my noble friend Lady Birk referred. It is also referred to in the Association of County Councils' notes, particularly on the matter of definition. I hope that the noble Earl will be in a position to elaborate a little on this, and to make it clear whether there is any discrepancy or not between these regulations and that draft directive and, if so, in what direction it lies. My recollection is that the draft directive went much wider, as my noble friend Lady Birk suggested, than the three categories of special waste which are designated in the statutory instrument which is before us.
In particular, of course, as my noble friend Lord Greenwood of Rossendale also indicated, in the draft directive, according to my recollection—and I simply have not had time to check with the text of the final directive—one of the major concerns was protection of the environment and also human health, which is different of course from human life. You can have damage to health which is not necessarily fatal. But the regulations in front of us seem to be very much narrower, and I just wondered what changes have taken place since we took evidence in 1977 from the Department on the directive, which was at that time still in draft. The spokesman for the department said:
"The primary purpose should be to protect the environment".
That seems somehow to have got lost in the wash. Perhaps the noble Earl can explain exactly what has happened.
Another matter which concerned us in the report on the draft directive which we made to your Lordships' House was that of adding substances to or subtracting substances from the list in the EEC context, which must presumably affect the list included in these regulations. It was proposed at that time that it should be done by the Commission through a technical progress committee working on a simple majority. For various reasons that was considered to be unsatisfactory and perhaps the Minister could enlighten us as to what has happened on that.
I feel I can best serve the interests of this debate by considering the Welsh situation because it illustrates sharply some of the difficulties which appear likely to arise in implementing these draft regulations. I do so, as I say, partly because the administrative pattern in Wales is different. A district council does not employ a toxicologist and is unlikely so to do. The suggested change in the balance of administration, which means work on site, will be extremely difficult to carry out with the kind of resources that are available to the disposal authorities in the Principality. I am well

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aware of course that there are some district councils in the more rural parts of Wales which are not troubled by the problem of special wastes, but we have about a score of district councils in Wales which have this problem and I am informed that eight of them receive wastes from other authorities, and that adds to the complications of the matter.
The Welsh districts came together to consider the Section 17 regulations and, as I trust the noble Earl has been informed, came to a formal condemnation of them in terms too long for me to quote tonight, but they began by saying that the regulations as proposed,
"will not enable waste disposal authorities in Wales to control hazardous wastes in a safe, effective or economic manner".
They were very much concerned about the toxicological factors and considered that the proposals in the regulations,
"are impractical and extremely difficult to operate".
They pointed out that in any case there was a serious lack of reliable data relating to human toxicological factors and that evidence from animal pathology was not always relevant. They foresaw great difficulty in getting the kind of evidence which would stand up in court, if actions were brought, and pointed out that they simply did not have the staff to cope with the situations that could arise. Incidentally, they complained about the complexity of the language employed in this particular statutory instrument, and perhaps that will have to be interpreted for them. They were very much concerned also with the fact that water authorities in Wales would no longer have automatic notification, and that brings me to the other point of particular concern in the Principality.
A good many of your Lordships who are not Welsh are no doubt aware that you nevertheless drink Welsh water; we have, after all, a geographical and geological situation in which we are particularly liable to water contamination if anything goes wrong. As one of the environmental officers who I telephoned this afternoon said, "The people in Whitehall think the earth is flat. We in Wales have the kind of topography which encourages leach ate in all directions", and this, too, greatly concerns the Welsh district councils: they believe that the particular problems of water supply and the potential leachate of some of these dangerous substances have not been adequately taken into account in the proposals made in these regulations.
We have very few sites, particularly in South Wales, suitable for the tipping of ordinary domestic refuse, let alone of the two-thirds of the toxic substances which are being removed from the list, and, as I say, the environmental health officers—certainly those with whom I have been able to talk this afternoon—are considerably apprehensive about not knowing which of what we might call the discarded list substances are to be tipped in particular places, if sites can be found at all for them, and what the synergistic effects of more than one substance on the same tip may prove to be, and what records will be kept of these other substances. Site licensing by itself is not enough. They seem to be absolutely firm on that. They refer of course to the laudable practice of using subsequently land which has had waste tipped on it for building, sports fields and other purposes, but they are considerably appre-
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hensive about what may happen if they lack knowledge of what precisely has been tipped.
At present a number of special wastes are not disposed of directly in Welsh authority areas at all; we transport a large proportion of the most toxic to sites in England and even Scotland. We have one international firm which deals with highly toxic substances, the Rechaem Company near Pontypool, and the apprehension among some local authorities is that even that facility might be taken from us if it is no longer necessary for industrial firms to use its services for what one might call—perhaps this is not a very happy phrase—the bread and butter work, for substances on the discarded list, if they no longer have to be treated by that firm. Indeed, it may find it is no longer economic for it to deal with the substances remaining on the list. It is under-employed at the moment, and of course I cannot vouch for its position and perhaps it would be improper to base one's argument on one firm. Nevertheless, there is real apprehension in the minds of the Welsh authorities.
I repeat, they are particularly concerned about the relationship with the Welsh Water Authority and, to a lesser degree, with Severn-Trent, which has a wide catchment area in the Principality though not much of it is industrial. They rely very strongly indeed on the services of the scientific staff of the water authority and they are concerned lest there should be a hiatus between deposits of wastes and the possible precautions which might be taken, particularly against leachate, if the water authority were brought in at an earlier stage and not only when something has gone wrong.
I am sure that the councils of the Principality, the district councils in Wales, are fully in accord with the comments of the Association of County Councils. They do not feel that Annexes A and B and the circular issued by the Department of the Environment do anything significant to relieve the anxiety which is widespread.
I hope that I have said enough in this short debate to indicate that had some of us received part of this material a little earlier, there might have been a much stronger attendance in the House this evening, and the noble Earl should not reckon that because we are relatively few in number here the matter is not the subject of very considerable concern which has to be taken really seriously.
8.10 p.m.
Lord Mottistone: My Lords, I shall perhaps surprise the noble Baroness, Lady White, by saying that I support the regulations. I am advised in what I have to say by the Confederation of British Industry, which represents a large interest of industrialists throughout the country. As I understand it, the proposals for the regulations, based as they are on the directive which is referred to in the explanatory note of the regulations, have been under consideration in long and involved discussions with all the interested parties for three years—embodying the time when the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, was at the Department of the Environment. Therefore matters were obviously being discussed quite well in the early stages, if, from her point of view, they were not in the latter stages.
The point is that there has been much discussion, and to suggest that the regulations have been insuffici-

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ently studied and have been abruptly thrust upon an unwilling nation, which I feel is the sense of what has been said by many of the speakers on the Benches opposite, is really a bit of a nonsense—
Baroness Birk: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? I shall be very brief, but I should like to intervene since he mentioned me and what had happened at the department. Is the noble Lord aware that in 1979 a consultation paper was put out by the department? That was after the present Government came into office. Nevertheless conclusions reached differed considerably from what are contained in the regulations this evening. It is true that there was an inclusive list, but it certainly did not give the definition that is contained in these regulations; nor was there any reference to danger to the health of a 4½-year-old child. So there has been a very considerable change.
Lord Mottistone: Perhaps, my Lords, the noble Baroness would go along with the thought that that means that there has been a lot of discussion. People have actually developed their thinking. They have not relied on what was current thinking in 1979. I would not really know, but that is a possible explanation.
However, unlike some noble Lords, I should like to speak very briefly about this subject, since I feel that most of what needs to be said will probably be said by my noble friend on the Front Bench. To sum up, the CBI supports the principal features of the regulations, and it would oppose any further delay in their implementation. It supports the emphasis which the Department of the Environment places on the interpretation of the regulations, using a circular of advice and technical memoranda. The CBI does not regard the regulations as perfect, and it suggests that in such a complex field it is highly unlikely that any such regulations ever will be perfect. But certainly industry wants, and is prepared to come to terms with, and operate, the new system. The CBI sees no merit whatsoever in delaying yet further the introduction of the regulations.
8.14 p.m.
Baroness Fisher of Rednal: My Lords, I rise to speak with at least a little experience of this matter. For four years I was a representative of your Lordships' House in the European Parliament and I was a member of the environmental committee. This directive was constantly before us for the first two years that I was a member of the committee. I want to reiterate what the noble Baroness, Lady White, said—that our main concern when discussing the EEC directive was that we should take great note of water pollution and health risks generally. It was constantly said around the committee table, by representatives from all member countries, that the polluter must pay. That is a well-known saying, but looking at the legislation in the form of the regulations one sees what is perhaps a turning back of the clock, with a relaxation of the dictum that the polluter must pay.
I want to support what my noble friend Lady Birk said in her intervention. It was in August 1979 that the Department of the Environment brought forth its
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draft regulations, which received widespread criticism from many quarters. The criticism was mainly from environmentalists and the local authority associations, and latterly from the organisation to which the noble Lord was referring when my noble friend Lady Birk interrupted him. However, it was not until September 1980 that the department issued definitive regulations; but there had been no intermediate consultative document sent to the objectors in the meantime. I find that fact particularly worrying, bearing in mind that the original idea behind deciding on sites where waste could be disposed of was to overcome the great dangers in the country arising from what we called "cowboy" dumping, by which people get rid of anything, anywhere, without regard to the consequences. Those people got rid of the waste. They were paid a price by whoever had produced it, without regard to environment and health. The Government took that situation in hand and brought forward legislation to cover it.
It is particularly worrying to find that one day 70 per cent. of disposable toxic waste is undesirable, whereas the next day the figure is much smaller, down perhaps to 6 per cent. The general public regard it as particularly worrying that the Government feel that this relaxation regarding hazardous waste is necessary.
Perhaps I may quickly give your Lordships an example of what we came across in the Warrington new town development corporation, of which I am a member. The prime site for development in Warrington new town was the Risley Ordnance factory. It was a very large factory, built during the war years, in concrete bunkers underground, for the production of heavy forms of artillery used in connection with submarines and suchlike. The bunkers have been got rid of during the last two years, and test bores at the site have shown that there had been leaks, arising from the factory disposing of material just on top of the soil outside the bunkers. Over the years due to corrosion and liberation of the material, the leakage had penetrated as far as a water table. No doubt during the war years many things were done that would not be done now. But that example shows that it can take many years for the dangers of hazardous wastes to build up. It has cost Warrington new town development corporation a considerable amount of money to get rid of that hazard.
There seems to be a difficulty in the regulations when it comes to defining the waste as being special. I wonder whether it is right to have an exemption, regardless of whether the material is disposed of by a waste disposal authority, discharged into a pipeline, or dumped on a factory site, because if you are giving exemptions to perhaps one category of people, you will ultimately find that they become loopholes in the Act. As an example, I think that if one reads the press today it will be found that even though we on this side of the House spent long hours on the Housing Bill there is a serious loophole in the Act to do with housing associations.
I do not want to keep noble Lords here very much longer, but in conclusion I should like to say that after listening to the noble Lord, Lord Digby, I find it very difficult to come to terms with the Government on what they call "special", and how one can test it. I think Lord Digby gave a good example of the difficulties

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in putting that to the test, and this was also borne out by my noble friend Lady Birk. Unless we can get rows and rows of little children of so many kilogrammes in weight, or whatever, we are not going to be able to put the tests into operation. Therefore, I see in the regulations a deliberate relaxation by the Government of what I would call good safety standards, and my final words are that I find the regulations retrogressive.
8.22 p.m.
Baroness Denington: My Lords, at this late hour I do not seek to detain the House for long, but I, too, should like to express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Digby, for bringing this matter to our attention. It is a very important matter and I agree so strongly with my noble friend Lady White that it is regrettable that the Association of County Councils did not draw these regulations to our attention in November last year, when surely they could have done so. I think our method of disposing of hazardous waste is terribly primitive and exceedingly wasteful. All we do is look for holes in the ground and then let the waste be dumped there, without any effort at all at the reclamation of quite valuable products in the waste which were not of use to the firm which produced it and which would be costly to recover. Because of the economic controls under which we live this waste is therefore just dumped; but I suppose that in the times in which we live this is not the moment to try to do something about it, so we go on with our primitive practices.
The present regulations, as everybody has been saying, are primarily, as I read them, to control the movement of these hazardous wastes; but, as we have heard from previous speakers, the local authorities who in fact control and license the disposal are, for a whole variety of reasons, finding them still completely unsatisfactory. As we have heard, meetings have been going on for several years, but I am informed that still there are these outstanding matters and that the authorities and the Government have not yet managed to resolve their differences. It seems to me quite wrong that this order should come before us now, when perhaps a few more months could have resolved the difficulties and we would not have had to have the regulations now and then further amending regulations in a few months' time—although I hope the Government will see fit to bring them forward for I am sure they will be necessary. It is a very untidy and unsatisfactory way to deal with matters: either these differences should have been dealt with earlier and the regulations should have come to us at this date complete to meet the deadline of the EEC, or else we should have postponed them and come to them a little later. It is not a very satisfactory way to go on, in my view.
The county councils have expressed, and are still expressing, their concern about the regulations. They say they are inadequate, and say that more consideration must be given to certain grey areas (as they term them) if public health and safety and the environment are to be properly protected. Surely every Member of this House, those present and those not present, would wish to do everything possible to protect public health and to protect the environment. One cannot go too far in being careful. I have in my hand a letter dated 10th November—these regulations were I think laid in another place on 17th November. It is quite a long
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letter from the Association of County Councils, setting out to an official in the DOE their concerns about the regulations, and raising a whole number of points that they say have been talked about before but they are still not satisfied about; and there is still misunderstanding between the two sets of officials who are carrying out the discussions.
I could quote this letter at length, but it is late and, as I say, I do not want to detain the House too long. However, there is a paragraph which causes me considerable concern, and if your Lordships will allow me I will read it:
"Although it is appreciated that an attempt has been made in the technical annexes to clarify the position, it must be emphasised that the theoretical foundation of the calculations remains highly unsatisfactory. We are sorry to have to say that all the earlier reservations expressed still remain. Firstly, the reliability of human toxicity data is extremely poor. The information given in NIOSH's registry of toxic effects of chemical substances' is very sparse and details for other mammals are not as full as would be required for the definition of special waste. The extrapolation from figures for a rat or rabbit to a 20 kilogramme child is impossible and, therefore, the resulting value used in calculation is meaningless. Another variable is waste density…which depends on the compaction figure for the waste. This again will affect the calculation of the limiting concentration of a component in a waste. There may be a temptation for perplexed industrialists to dilute their wastes in order to render them non-special and therefore outside the notification procedure, thus increasing the liquid loading on disposal systems and increasing the production of leachate. Little thought has been given to the inevitable effects of the deposit of incompatible wastes which will not be classified as special wastes";
and so they go on. I find it most disconcerting that these regulations should come through at the very time when the Association of County Councils are writing in these terms. It is a long letter, and is very detailed; but they come forward with these points and apparently no notice is taken of them.
I am not a technical person and, as did other Members of this House, I received this information from the county councils with the knowledge that this matter was to be debated here this evening. I received it only on Saturday, and I was therefore not able to make any proper inquiries for my own enlightenment until this morning. But this morning I rang up the GLC officers whose job it is to deal with these particular problems, and I am glad to say that they were able to come over and talk to me about them. They are exceedingly concerned. I said to them, "What are the grey areas that you refer to? What sort of things are they that will be dumped on any dump and you will not have any knowledge of, or will not be able to control; or in respect of which, if the regulations stand as they are proposed, you say you will have to have very special and highly-trained officers present all the time—a most expensive business and not a saving at all?"
What are we talking about? They give me these kind of instances. They say, first, lithium batteries, those little batteries used in radio communication. At present, they have to be notified; but they will not be "special" under Section 17; and when water is applied to them, there is a fire risk. If they go on an ordinary dump and there is water there, or some effluent with a lot of water in it is deposited there, there is a fire risk. A fire risk on any dump is a health hazard to the people who live near it and is quite serious. They talk of sodium street lamps. These are normally

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smashed and then mixed with water to make them harmless; but if there is no control over them they can be dumped and not rendered harmless and, again, you get a fire risk.
Then, of oil and water mixtures, they say that in small quantities they are not dangerous; but there are producers of 1,500 gallons a month with a 15 per cent. oil content. At present, they would have to be notified. Under these regulations, they would not have to be notified. They would cause pollution of the ground through seepage. Then, organo-metals, which, I am told, are chemically-mixed metals. In London, they say, there is a firm producing 18 tons a quarter of containers which themselves are contaminated. There is apparently little knowledge at the moment about the toxicity of these things, but they are believed to be highly dangerous. At present, they can be dealt with under the regulations; but they would just go with ordinary waste under the proposed regulations. They say the proposed regulations, in a lot of ways, are not as good as the existing regulations. They are only better so far as transport arrangements are concerned. It is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.
They give me a further list of other substances, ending up with metallic mercury which could discharge into water and form methol mercury and be very dangerous. The fire risk is a real one because if methane gas were produced on dumps, and some substances were to set fire to the dump, there could be explosions and there would be a hazard to life. It is a very serious matter; I am sure we are all certain of that. I understand that the local authority officers consider that, unless amendments are made, the existing regulations are really preferable to the regulations being put in front of us this evening. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to give us some comfort when he replies on this perplexing and worrying subject.
8.34 p.m.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Control of Pollution (Special Waste) Regulations. They bring about important changes in the controls over disposal of hazardous wastes. We are taking a step forward and not a step backwards. There have been extensive and protracted consultations with public and private sectors which have preceded the laying of these regulations and any criticism over consultation being made in haste is unfounded. Although these bodies have not always agreed with each other or with the department, there has been considerable uniformity of view in terms of general principles and objectives. I have before me (as have most noble Lords) the papers from the A.C.C. and I have the essential matters to be resolved. They have listed nine such matters. If I could break them down quickly and say that four of those the Government are either doing or will be shortly done, three of them the Government do not agree with and—I think the Government are entitled to disagree with one or two of their points. Of the other two points outstanding, one at the moment is a matter of interpretation and the other a matter of law. So, out of the nine, we are dealing with four.
Baroness White: May we know which ones?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I could tell you at the end; but if I read them all now it would take a long time.
Baroness White: My Lords, may we have just the numbers?
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, No. 2 is being done. No. 4 is being done, as already promised. No. 9 will be done quickly and No. 5 is being done already. I should like to sympathise with the noble Baroness, Lady White, over the short period of notification she had in this matter. I could say I was in the same boat and have spent the weekend up to my eyes in waste. She also made the comment that there were very few people present tonight. I think that the speeches have all been so formidable that what we lose in numbers we gain in knowledge. Having said this about the Association of County Councils, I think I ought to say that they have been hardly fair in their comments as there has been considerable give and take between divers bodies.
The noble Lord, Lord Digby, mentioned unanimity. We have already heard that the CBI is on the other side of this particular fence. I have had a letter from one of the leading waste disposal industrial firms which is frankly very "anti" the Association of County Councils. We must give the Government some credit for steering a course here between both sides which we think is a wise one. I have seen a letter also from Suffolk County Council, which approves of this regulation and has written to the press saying so.
However, to get on to the major topic, I shall endeavour, first, to explain the background of the regulations as we see them and describe their effect. It is a complex subject and I think it is proper to put the proposals in their proper perspective from the Government's point of view. As the House will be aware, before 1972 the protection of the environment and the population from the dangers of hazardous waste disposal was left to the various controls exercised under planning, public health and alkali Acts.
Noble Lords will recall the discovery some years ago of dangerous wastes found dumped in such a way as to pose a serious threat. That led to the introduction of the Bill which became the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act 1972. This was specifically intended to curb abuse without disrupting responsible waste disposal practice. It made the deposit of poisonous, noxious or polluting waste on land in a way which would be liable to cause danger to people or animals or pollute a water supply an offence, and required that local and river authorities be notified about the type of quantity of certain wastes arising in their area. This relatively straightforward control had much to commend it when regulatory authorities and the waste producers themselves had little knowledge either of the composition of some of their wastes or the effects of their disposal. But, welcome though it was, this legislation was never intended as more than a stop-gap measure and has now been with us much longer than was originally anticipated.
With the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act, the Government and Parliament were responding to cases which demonstrated the deficiencies in the then-existing controls. In pollution control, the real need is to anticipate problems and to practise prevention;

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and not to be forced into taking measures in the face of an emergency. In the same year, therefore the Local Government Act 1972 laid the foundations of preventive control with the creation of waste disposal authorities. Then, in 1974, Part I of the Control of Pollution Act set out to deal comprehensively with the problems of waste disposal on land. In 1976, the waste disposal licensing provisions of the Act were implemented. Since that time, it has been an offence to process, treat or dispose of controlled waste—that is, domestic commercial or industrial waste—other than at a site specifically licensed for the purpose and in accordance with the conditions of that licence.
I should like to take up one point that the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, made. I think that this is a situation where we are still learning. I have just told you the history showing moves in 1972, 1974 and 1976. It should not surprise us that there is something happening now and I think that there will be some more things happening in the not too distant future. This is a continuing process.
Waste disposal authorities are responsible for issuing licences for private sites with a specific view to minimising risks of water pollution or danger to public health, and for ensuring that their own sites are operated to the same high standards. The licensing system is now established as the primary control at the point of disposal of all controlled wastes, including toxic and hazardous wastes from chemical and industrial processes. Many volumes of detailed technical advice in the form of waste management papers have been published by the department and provide guidance on site licensing and management and equally underline the department's keen interest in this subject.
This is the background against which the new controls are being introduced. The licensing system provides for the supervised, secure disposal of all controlled wastes, and the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act defines particular wastes which must not be disposed of without prior notification to the relevant authorities. This is what is to be narrowed. The two measures at the moment overlap; also, there is a significant gap which the new controls will remedy: I shall come to that point in a minute.
The amount of paper generated by the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act notification system has disadvantages. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Digby, talked about water. The National Water Council would like to see water authorities relieved of the burden of dealing with this paper because it believes that co-operation between water and waste disposal authorities in the licensing, planning and monitoring process provides them with a proper means of protecting water supplies. There are also reports from time to time in the technical press which indicate that the waste disposal authorities themselves do not have the resources to deal with what, in some cases, are scores of thousands of notifications each year.
Part I of the Control of Pollution Act has been implemented in stages since 1974. The next stage after the implementation of the site licensing system was the preparation of the regulations under Section 17, which noble Lords have been debating this evening. The Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act 1972 is to be repealed by a separate order. The site licensing
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provisions will remain as the control over the actual disposal of controlled waste. The new regulations under Section 17 will form the legislative control of the movement of special waste to its point of disposal and thus fill the gap which at present exists in terms of a positive procedure over movement of the more hazardous wastes—and I use the expression "from cradle to grave". This I suggest is of prime importance and really urgent, and I recommend your Lordships to agree to it.
Section 17 of the 1974 Act places a duty on the Secretaries of State to make provision by regulations for the disposal of those controlled wastes which are particularly difficult or dangerous to dispose of. Such wastes are referred to in Section 17 and in the regulations as "special wastes". So, in place of the old definition of "notifiable" waste which comprised a large number of controlled wastes, the regulations will provide a definition of special waste which will cover a narrow range of the most difficult and dangerous controlled wastes. By altering that definition, controls merely over the notification of up to two-thirds of the former notifiable wastes will be relaxed, but tighter controls will be provided over the carriage and notification of special wastes than currently exist. I must make it clear, however, that controls over their disposal at licensed sites are not being relaxed and the duty on waste disposal authorities to monitor the operation of those sites remains unchanged. We have estimated that local authorities and the waste disposal industry will be relieved of up to two-thirds of the paperwork required under the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act system. They will therefore be able to shift the emphasis of their controls from operating the notification procedure to closer supervision and control in the field.
To those who argue that the relaxation of notification procedures will bring about an increase in environmental hazards, I say this is just not so. Part I of the 1974 Act secures the proper and safe disposal of all controlled wastes at a suitable site licensed for that purpose. Neither the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act nor Section 17 regulations can do that; the latter are concerned with the transport of waste to its point of disposal—thereafter, the manner of its disposal is the subject of licensing controls. They complement the provisions of Part I of the Act, and are not a replacement or an alternative.
I should like to come now to the provisions of the new regulations, because I think that we have rather tended not to accept that there are quite a lot of new things here. The new regulations make the following provisions, and I think that your Lordships will find that they are more stringent. Regarding transmission, the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood of Rossendale mentioned international trade in waste, and the noble Baroness, Lady White, talked about waste in the Principality, both in the context of movement. Section 17 does tighten this up. The following provisions arc in the new regulations. They require waste producers to inform waste disposal authorities of their intention to dispose of consignments of special waste. They provide for a consignment note system which allows confirmation that any particular consignment of special waste has been disposed of at a site licensed to receive it or run by a local authority.

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They require a register to be kept. They require a permanent record of the location of disposal. That is something new. They provide a power for the Secretaries of State to direct that special waste shall be received at a particular site or plant. That is essentially an emergency provision. Finally, they provide that radioactive waste—which also has the characteristics of special waste—shall be subject to the forms of control appropriate to each.
My department will again be providing detailed guidance on the application of these regulations in the form of a circular with two technical annexes and a substantial waste management paper. This will explain in great detail how the status of waste can be clearly determined using the criteria of the regulations.
I should like now to turn to some of the points raised during the course of the debate. First, I must apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady White. Apparently, I have used the wrong numbers on the paragraphs. I referred to (4) and I think it probably should be (iii) (b). If I may write and clarify that, I shall be grateful.
The noble Lord, Lord Digby, produced for us some technical examples and I am informed that all the examples that he quoted are covered by the respective disposal by site licence conditions which will be in such terms so as to prevent the events that he is predicting.
A number of noble Lords made comments on the five cubic centimetres of waste to a hypothetical 20 kilogramme child. That yardstick is based on the belief that existing controls over the movement of certain waste materials are inadequate, so it is a step forward, a step in the right direction. Why do we use this? A standard body weight of 20 kilogrammes, equivalent to a four to five year old child, is prescribed simply to enable the conversion of published toxicity data normally expressed in terms of a weight of toxic substance per unit body weight to an actual weight of substance. So this is something which when we produce our explanatory papers is meant to simplify things and not to complicate matters.
The noble Baroness, Lady Birk, mentioned glue waste in Cheshire, and the problem which we identified there may well have been partly due to the nature of the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act itself. Producers often use descriptions and sometimes these hide the problems. On the other hand, the consignment note procedure in the new regulations will require more detailed descriptions, and will enable the receiving local authority to identify the waste correctly—
Baroness Birk: My Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene. I was using that only as an example of the main point. The home authority, the local authority whence it comes, is not under an obligation here to be informed. That is the problem. It is not a question of whether these happen to be certain solvents. The point is that the local authority whence the waste comes understands the industrial processes in its area. That is the worry that many of us have.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for making that point. But we seem to be getting away from the fact that the step forward
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is to put better controls over the 25 per cent., without relaxing the other ones.
May I now come on to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady White? She asked about the amendments to the list of substances in the operation of the regulations. This does apply to the regulations. There will be means of amending the list of substances. The noble Baroness, Lady White, and also the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, talked about the directive. The European directive leaves the detailed application of the requirements largely to individual nations and the primary route for protection of the environment in the United Kingdom lies in the site licensing provisions. This is to be supplemented by the new regulations which, again, are in accordance with the directive. These regulations are such that they will cover most, if not all, of the wastes which are likely to cause an environmental impact, in addition to the wastes which have been most hazardous to persons.
The noble Baroness, Lady White, spoke about Wales. District councils in Wales have responsibility for the current arrangements, their sites are controlled by the licensing provisions and they will continue to be so protected. There are, as she said, relatively few disposal sites and the management and supervisory problems are consequently less. All the information and advice from the Department of the Environment in the circular and the waste management paper will, of course, be made available to them.
By bringing these regulations into force, we shall comply with an outstanding requirement of the European directive. When we talk about timing, we are meant to have this in being by March, so there is,
obviously, a cause for that. But, as I said earlier, there was no haste involved in the discussions. We shall enhance the system of control over waste disposal in Part I of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 by increasing control over the most serious risks, and we shall release resources which are presently deployed on less necessary work.
During the lengthy discussions and consultations which took place on these proposals, no alternative system was proposed which would not have had serious disadvantages when compared with the one contained in these regulations. All would have suffered from the difficulties either of imprecise, all-enveloping controls, or of detailed and complex rules requiring masses of documentation.
These regulations are a logical and practical step forward, and I suggest that those who favour blanket controls, and think it better to be safe than sorry, have misunderstood them. The many responsible members of regulatory authorities, industry and departments have striven over a long period to produce these. I do not believe that this is the time for us to forgo the benefits and the vast amount of information gained over eight years' experience under the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act and four years of licensing. Quite clearly, wastes will not suddenly change their characteristics or points of origin when the new regulations are implemented.
I do not believe that a better system will appear if we wait a little longer and consult further. We need to take a positive step forward, and the Government recognise that it will not be the last we will take along this road. My noble friend Lord Lucas has told us

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of the work of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Gregson. In fact, my noble friend Lord Digby also referred to it, as did other noble Lords. This committee is inquiring into the whole subject. Recommendations from its report will be considered in the context of these regulations, and my department looks forward to the recommendations of Lord Gregson's committee in this important area. I have said that this is not the last measure that we will be taking and, without anticipating what the committee will say, I am sure that it will make a very important contribution to future progress. I assure all noble Lords that proceeding with these regulations will in no way alter the consideration of that report.
The circumstances surrounding the introduction of the Deposit of Poisonous Waste Act demonstrated that it is intolerable to wait for disturbing incidents or abuses before developing answers to such questions. What we have here is an improvement on the present arrangements, and the Government do not think we can afford to put it off any longer. Waste disposal authorities have asked for a greater measure of prenotification, specifically for the waste disposal authority where the special waste arises.
There is another view that there would need to be no pre-notification at all as site licensing covers the position. These regulations strike a balance and provide for pre-notification for the authority where the waste is going, and notification on dispatch with details of the carrier and his vehicle for the area from which the waste has come. Whatever the system, proper co-operation and liaison between the producers, disposal authorities and disposal operators is vital. The only way to decide this question is to monitor the operation of the regulations to see whether experience suggests that change in either direction is necessary. I do not think that anybody opposes the proposal to invoke tighter controls over special waste.
The disposal of special waste, we all agree, is an important matter. But we must be clear about where we are going, and why. I am pleased to hear that already arrangements are being made to hold a number of informal seminars to discuss practical arrangements for implementing the regulations. I by no means dismiss all the arguments against the approach that we have chosen. The Government undertake that the regulations will be kept under review, in order to see whether any alterations appear appropriate in the light of experience in their working. I hope that, to a degree, that will satisfy the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, and others who asked for an undertaking from the Government. I also hope that, in the context of all I have said, my noble friend Lord Digby will agree to withdraw his prayer. The regulations make a number of new provisions, not least the cradle to grave rules. It is the Government's carefully considered advice that now is the time to go forward on these lines. I commend these regulations to the House.
8.58 p.m.
Lord Digby: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for that very long reply, which was given in some detail. I would sum up what he has said by saying that the Government are relying on site licensing and assure us that better controls on 25 per cent. are being produced, without relaxing the rest. This is
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certainly not the way we read the relaxation of the rest. I must admit to being rather disappointed with that part of the reply.
I should like particularly to thank those noble Lords opposite who have supported me, and to apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady White, for the fact that she did not have more warning. I am afraid that none of us did. These negotiations have been going on behind the scenes with the department for a long time, and it was rather as a last resort that we decided that we must try to move a prayer in this House. I know that further moves are being made in another place. I think that this debate will have produced a lot of interesting reading, a lot of opinion forming reading, for the country and I hope that it will be given good publicity. However, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

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