Sitting of 6 October 1980

Preamble
Reassembling after the Summer Recess, the House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.
The Baroness Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn—Took the Oath.

TRIBUTES TO THE LATE VISCOUNT DILHORNE
The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames): My Lords, it is with great sadness that I rise, as Leader of your Lordships' House, to pay tribute to the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, whose death during the Recess will, I know, have come as a personal shock to many of your Lordships from all parts of the House. His death is a particularly sad occasion because he only retired as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary at the end of the summer term. At his last appearance on the Appelate Committee of your Lordships' House counsel paid fulsome tribute to his service to the legal profession and they expressed the hope that he would enjoy a long and
2
well deserved retirement, and in view of his remarkable contribution to the work of this House we would all have liked to wish him the same.
Lord Dilhorne had indeed an outstanding record of service to this country, to this House and to his party. He was elected a Member of Parliament in 1943. He served the Government throughout the long period during which his party was in office, first as Solicitor General in 1951, and then in 1954 as Attorney General. In this position, the senior law officer to the Crown, Reginald Manningham-Buller served for eight consecutive years. He came to this House in 1962 and held posts of responsibility almost continuously until July of this year, first as Lord Chancellor from 1962 to 1964, then as Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and from 1969, in what was in some ways an entirely new and separate career, as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary. His obvious and widely acclaimed ability to span the difficult gap between politician and judge is in itself perhaps the greatest tribute which we in this House can pay him.
My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has already, at a judicial sitting of the House last week, paid tribute to Lord Dilhorne's long and varied contribution to the legal world and to the profession of which he was so proud. I should like just to recall those qualities which we in this House will remember.

3
He was a vigorous and robust parliamentarian with an immense capacity for work. His political and legal acumen was formidable. He lived life to the full. His integrity and the strength of his convictions were beyond question. Behind the bluff and perhaps sometimes forbidding exterior there lay a deep sensitivity and a strong sense of humour. He was indeed an institution of this House, and even as a Law Lord, when of necessity he took but a small part in the proceedings of this Chamber, he still took a profound interest in the business and procedures of this House and more generally in the independent role of our parliamentary institutions. We shall remember him with admiration and affection, and I am sure that all noble Lords present today will wish to join me in expressing our sense of loss and our sympathy to his wife and family, who were such a constant source of help and encouragement to him.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, I rise to join in the warm tribute which the Leader of the House has paid to the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne, and to express our sorrow at his sudden passing. His record of service in Parliament, in Government, in the life of the law and in his profession was indeed outstanding. Those of us who served with him in another place will remember always his tough robustness in the face of stormy parliamentary onslaughts, his immense industry and his full commitment to whatever political or legal task he undertook. I did not often agree with him politically, but this never affected our longstanding friendship which extended over a span of 40 years. Few men were kinder in personal relationships than he was.
As the Leader has said, he was a law officer for 13 years, and for eight of those years he was Attorney General, which in itself, if I may say so, is a triumph of endurance. After a briefer term as Lord Chancellor he continued to serve with distinction the House on its judicial side and the law. Those who sat with him will confirm the tribute paid to him last Thursday by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his valued contribution as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, for his thoroughness, his clarity and his integrity. My Lords, in all he undertook
4
he was sustained by his wife and family, and we extend our sympathy to them in their great loss.
2.42 p.m.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, may we on these Benches also associate ourselves with the eloquent tributes paid to the late Viscount Dilhorne. As a lawyer his judgment was always deeply respected by every member of the Bar. Outside the narrow confines of the law—and I think perhaps of some of his speeches in your Lordships' House on the standards of conduct in public life and on various constitutional issues that were raised—he displayed a shrewd, vigorous common sense that carried vast influence in every corner of your Lordships' House.
Perhaps I may make but one personal observation. When I first came to your Lordships' House as someone immeasurably junior to the noble and learned Viscount in a vast variety of ways, his welcome was one of encouragement, kindness and assistance. I know that I was not the only Member of the House who had the privilege of being treated in that way. It is perhaps for that reason that not only will he be recalled with the greatest of esteem, but held as well in the warmest of affection.
Lord WILBERFORCE: My Lords, from these Benches on which Viscount Dilhorne sat for a period of over 10 years, it is surely right that full concurrence and association should be expressed with the warm and merited tributes which have been paid. He made very many notable contributions from this place to the business of this House, and I know that many noble Lords who sit in this part of the House would wish me to express on their behalf their gratitude for the very ready help and encouragement that he was always willing to give, very often with a twinkle in his eye, on matters of parliamentary procedure, tactics and legislation.
For those of us who sit here in a judicial capacity there are special feelings to be expressed. We have a very special appreciation of his work as our colleague—work to which tribute has already been paid on other occasions—and we have, in addition, a very personal sense of loss.
2.45 p.m.
Lord GARDINER: My Lords, I should be grateful if the House would allow me to add a few words to the tributes which have so rightly been paid to the late noble and learned Viscount, Lord Dilhorne. We were at Magdalen College Oxford, and we were called to the Bar within two years of one another by the Inner Temple and for years we lunched together every day at the same table in the Hall of that Inn. We differed on political matters. I was not much concerned with that, but he was obviously destined for political life to which I did not aspire. But the conversation at the table was certainly inspiring and many who sat at that table have since achieved eminence in various ways.
At a later stage we were two of four members of the Bar Council who visited the Benches of the four Inns of Court to try to persuade them to adopt a rather less hostile attitude to the Bar Council, although I do not know that it was very successful. But, in the years during which I was chairman of the Bar Council, as Attorney General, he was a member ex-officio. I was privileged to succeed him as Lord Chancellor when he was Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and inevitably we differed on measures both political and of law reform which I was bringing forward. However, what I think was not always clear to those who knew him only in public life was that in private life he was essentially a very kindly, amiable and friendly man with a great sense of humour, and one who never allowed party political differences to affect his friendships. It was later a pleasure for me to be able to recommend his appointment as a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, a position to which I considered his merits clearly entitled him.
As recently as 29th July I attended a small party given by the Law Lords on his retirement and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Salmon. He was in his usual robust form and as amusing as ever and appeared to be in excellent health. It was as ereat a shock to me as I am sure to anybody, after very long personal association with him, to learn of his sudden and tragic death. I too would like to extend my deepest sympathy to his widow and family.

NAMIBIA: PROGRESS ON UN SETTLEMENT PLAN
2.48 p.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in securing a cease-fire and an election in Namibia under United Nations supervision.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, there has been less progress than we would have wished. But following the South African reply of 29th August to the United Nations Secretary-General, the gap has been further narrowed. South Africa has agreed to receive a United Nations Secretariat team from 20th to 27th October in a further effort to reach agreement on early implementation of the United Nations settlement plan.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. However, have the South African Government accepted the Security Council Resolution 435 which provides for United Nations control of a cease-fire and demilitarised zone and United Nations supervision of elections and independence? Secondly, are the Government satisfied that South Africa has given up any intention to declare unilateral independence based on, first, the executive authority which it has given to the Turnhalle Assembly, unrecognised internationally; secondly, its authorisation of an army under that Assembly; and thirdly, its announcement of a constitution for Namibia which includes second-tier, apartheid ethnic councils?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, most of the problems to which the noble Lord refers have indeed been settled. The main points in dispute now are the South African request for impartiality of treatment between SWAPO and the internal parties by the United Nations organs, together with the inclusion of internal parties in future consultations. We hope that a settlement can be reached on these outstanding issues.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that on this side of the House—indeed, I think, in most parts of the House—there is a feeling that the South African Government has delayed in this settlement beyond what is a reasonable time? Could we have an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will be pressing, both at the United Nations and in other ways which are open to them, to obtain a very speedy attempt at an agreement in what is a serious and dangerous situation?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, certainly South African consideration of some of these matters has taken longer than we would have wished. However, they have agreed to accept later this month the United Nations Secretariat team to which I have referred, and we hope that the outstanding difficulties can then be resolved.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister say whether, during this protracted interim period since the five Western countries began negotiations, the British Government or any other of the five have made representations to the South African Government about the continued loss, particularly of mineral wealth but also of other economic wealth, which is going into the South African Treasury at the expense of a future independent Namibia?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am not quite sure to which economic wealth the noble Lord refers, but if he refers to the uranium mine which has been the subject of considerable press comment, then that is quite a separate matter.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I should like to ask the Minister whether on 27th October, when there is to be this discussion, Her Majesty's Government, with the others, will seek to raise the question of political prisoners? Is he aware that there are 53 political prisoners in Robins Island and very many others under detention?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the visit later this month, to which I referred, will be headed by the United Nations and not by Her Majesty's Government. In fact, it will be led by Mr. Urquhart who is the Deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations. British views on the
8
question of political prisoners in Namibia are well known to the South African Government, and indeed to the Namibian authorities.

OFFICE OF MANPOWER ECONOMICS: ERROR
2.53 p.m.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what disciplinary action is being taken in respect of members of the staff of the Office of Manpower Economics in the light of Sir Alan Marre's report on the circumstances in which that office provided information erroneous to the extent of £130 million to the Clegg Commission.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, Sir Alan Marre investigated this serious error very thoroughly and he made it clear that he did not criticise any one individual for what had occurred. The Government accept his report and his conclusion; and have decided, in the light of his inquiry, that there are no good grounds for further investigation or for taking disciplinary action against individuals.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, does my noble friend, whom I thank for that reply, recall that in his report Sir Alan Marre says that a main cause of the loss of this £130 million was inexcusable confusion within the office on the question of checking? If that finding is accurate, is it not at least possible that the senior officer responsible for the administrative arrangements of the office carries a degree of personal responsibility?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the passage in which Sir Alan mentioned the inexcusable confusion, and I certainly agree with my noble friend that it was inexcusable. But at that point Sir Alan went on to say:
"I do not criticise any one individual for this, but my inquiry has revealed the need for clarification and communication to staff of the extent of their responsibilities".

9
This, of course, has been carried out, as it is a matter of great gravity.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this office has been operating for nine years, and that an administrative set-up in which there can be confusion on this quite elementary point surely reflects remarkably little credit on those responsible for its organisation?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I do not think that it is my job in any way to excuse this error which, as my noble friend has pointed out, was a very grievous one. Any error to the tune of £130 million is indeed grievous. But the fact is that it was a single error and, during that period of nine years of operation to which my noble friend referred, I think that it was the only error of any consequence whatever. But Sir Alan has no doubt that the error is inexcusable and, of course, we have brought the report very forcefully to the attention of the office.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, will the noble Earl bear in mind that there have been other occasions when very considerable errors of mathematical calculation have been made?—notably in the assessment of the public sector borrowing requirement by Treasury officials, which in one year was £4,000 million out and in the next year £3,000 million out.

OPTICAL APPLIANCES: COMPETITION
2.56 p.m.
Lord NORTHFIELD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the decision, which on 30th January they expected "within three months", of the Director General of Fair Trading on whether lack of competition in the marketing of optical appliances including spectacles should be referred to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I understand that the Director General of
10
Fair Trading has now completed his examination of competition in the marketing of optical appliances, and is giving serious consideration to making a reference to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission of the supply of reading lenses and spectacle frames in relation to restrictions on advertising. He has, however, decided that it would be sensible to defer a final decision on a reference to await the outcome of a review by the General Optical Council of its rules and guidance for the optical profession, which is expected later this year.
Lord NORTHFIELD: My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord. But, as there have been deputations to the Government and continuous debates here and in another place about this matter, can he make a statement of Government policy on this matter? Do the Government agree that it is high time that some form of price competition should be allowed in this country in the retailing of spectacle frames? Secondly, do the Government believe that there is a strong case, or at any rate a case, for a free market in the sale of simple magnifying spectacles of varying strengths? If the noble Lord could say that the Government agree on both those points, I am sure that we should be giving sonic guidance to the industry on how to approach these problems.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord on both those points. We certainly believe that the present situation in the marketing of spectacles and their associated appliances is unsatisfactory, particularly with regard to the advertising provisions, to which I referred. We very much hope that the General Optical Council will see fit to change its rules.
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the whole history of this shows that there are delaying tactics?—and the sooner the Government are prepared to deal with those delaying tactics the better.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. The situation is unsatisfactory and has gone on for too long. This matter first came to public attention in 1976 and the time is long overdue for a change.

EEC BUSINESS PROJECTS: EARLY WARNING
2.58 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they normally take to acquaint British firms, or the associations of which they are members, of early warning intelligence from the European Economic Community institutions about business projects at an early stage prior to the formal display of such information.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, early warning intelligence about business projects supported by Community finance is monitored by the world aid section of the projects and export policy division of the Department of Trade. Most advance projects information is disseminated to British firms and trade associations through the Export Intelligence Service. Close contact is maintained with the office of the United Kingdom Permanent Representative in Brussels, whose staff provide assistance to businessmen and advise them on contacts in the Commission.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a widespread opinion in industrial and commercial circles that the competitors of British industry in EEC countries have an undue advantage over them, in that when the projects are first mooted they seem to get, via their respective Governments, to their own traders and their own trade associations, and that, so far, we in this country seem to have adopted, possibly quite correctly, a policy of greater rectitude whereby only when the contracts are displayed is the information given to our trade associations and industrialists here? Will he agree that we really ought to be on the same basis, and that, since there is not very much security inside the European Commission itself, it might be wise to take steps to ensure that the British firms get the same advance warnings as Continental firms do?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I believe that British firms are at no disadvantage compared with their Continental comptitors in this matter. As I said, the world aid section of the projects and export policy division of the Department of Trade monitors information about aid funded projects and disseminates this in good time to the Export Intelligence Service.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, whether it is true or false, there is a feeling abroad in Europe that we do not seem to get on as well in having our share of what is going in Europe as many of our competitor countries? When this point has been put on many occasions we have had the answer that the noble Lord has just given; but it would give a lot of satisfaction if he could say that they will look again, and continually, to see whether or not we are as alert as our competitors because of the important possibilities that exist in Europe.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, it is certainly the case that British firms are not always as successful as some of their European competitors in this matter. For example, I understand that we contribute about 18 per cent. of total funds to the European Development Fund, and to the period up to June, 1979, secured only 11·2 per cent. of the work that flowed from that fund. Ministers have, indeed, expressed concern about the lack of interest shown by United Kingdom exporters in pursuing EDF business, and they, and officials, take every opportunity to impress on businessmen the opportunities available.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my original Question was not limited to aid funded projects, to which the noble Lord's reply was confined? I was dealing with the whole question of commercial contracts in Europe that are out under EEC auspices, and they go far beyond aided projects.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, it is true that there are certain categories of other business available to British firms from the Commission—for example, technical research projects—and these are promoted in this country at least by the

13
sponsoring departments; namely, the Department of Industry and the Department of Energy, or such other department as may be appropriate.
Viscount ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, would the noble Lord please confirm that if Lord Bruce's friends had their way and we were to withdraw from the EEC manufacturers would then get even less information?
Lord TREFGARNE: I fear that is true, my Lords.

THE CHAMBER: REPAIR OF CEILING
3.3 p.m.
Lord SOAMES: My Lords, in my last Statement to the House shortly before the Summer Recess, I expressed the hope that we would be able to return to our usual Parliament Chamber in October. To my relief, this has indeed proved possible and I am sure that the whole House is relieved and thankful.
Technically, the project has so far gone well. The temporary ceiling which also provides a working platform is now installed and I think that the House will agree that the supporting scaffolding, while certainly visible, is not obtrusive or offensive. There is no interference with our usual layout, I am assured, both on the Floor of the Chamber and in the Galleries. The acoustics, air conditioning, and heating are, I am told, as good as they were, so I can but hope that the House will find that our working conditions here in the Chamber are back to normal and are satisfactory.
So far as the future is concerned, I can as yet, I am afraid, add little to my previous Statement. Now that the working platform is in position the Property Services Agency are commissioning a full investigatory report by consultants on the state of the ceiling, which should be in their hands by the end of the year. We can then expect that, after consultation with our Administration Committee, the PSA will thereafter put in hand the remedial action required—and it may indeed be substantial—to repair and restore the ceiling. I will of course keep the House informed.
14
My Lords, we shall all be concerned to know about costs and the time the job will take. But the Property Services Agency must first wait for the consultants' report before they can make any proposals to us. In the meantime, it is nice to be back again, and I think the House would like to join me in expressing our thanks to the PSA and the staff of the House for getting the Chamber ready for us in time for our return from the Recess.
Lord PEART: My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for his Statement. I am sure we can endorse that we are relieved and thankful that we are able to use the Chamber today. Those concerned have done a wonderful job. It has been mentioned to me in passing that for some acoustics problems may create difficulties. I hope not. I think they have done a wonderful job. All I can say is let us have good debates, because I would hate to go back to that other place—not "the other place"!
Lord BYERS: My Lords, from these Benches we should like to endorse everything that has been said. The Property Services Agency and the staff of the House have done a remarkable job and we ought to be very grateful to them.

DINNERS
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I announce that dinner will be available this evening at the usual time, and that is 7 p.m. It may also be for the convenience of the House if I announce that dinner will be available tomorrow, Tuesday, 7th October, Wednesday, 8th October, and Thursday, 9th October.

MARRIED WOMEN'S POLICIES OF ASSURANCE (SCOTLAND) (AMENDMENT) BILL
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Lord Wynne-Jones.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING AND LAND (No. 2) BILL
3.7 p.m.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bellwin.)
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, there is a matter of great importance which I should like to raise at this stage before we go into Committee, and that is to question the value of going through the charade of a Committee stage in this House when the Secretary of State has already acted on Clause 41 before this House has even considered, let alone accepted, it. I make no complaint about the conduct of the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, in the proceedings on this Bill—he treats this House with consideration and courtesy and with a due regard to its function as a second Chamber—but I must protest about the affront to the House by his Secretary of State. In utter disregard of the function of this House and its part in parliamentary procedure and constitutional rights, the Secretary of State has announced that 14 councils will have their grant cut for overspending.
I complained at Second Reading that this was retrospective legislation in that councillors would have legally fixed their rates in April and yet could be penalised when this Bill came on to the statute book in November. Questions were asked in this House in the course of that debate as to how the formula to deal with overspending would be worked out—whether the formula would be put to both Houses of Parliament, and what right of appeal would be available to local authorities. We expected to receive answers to these questions when we reached Clause 41 in Committee. Instead, the Secretary of State has acted in an unbelievably arrogant
16
way by using this proposed retrospective legislation and pre-empting the decision of this House by taking unto himself powers not yet approved by it.
What could be more unconstitutional than that freely elected councils should be penalised because a Secretary of State disapproves of their perfectly lawful behaviour? The noble Lord's right honourable friend has acted in a highly unconstitutional manner. Before we proceed further with the Bill this House has the right to ask for an explanation from the Government.
The whole House will also be concerned about the reports in the national press last week to the effect that the Secretary of State had been entertaining selected Peers from shire counties and giving them figures to demonstrate, as he claims, how much better off their shire county would be next year under the arrangements proposed in this Bill and urging them not to oppose his proposals in this House. Is there any substance in this report? If so, I do not for one moment believe that noble Lords opposite will respond to this kind of pressure, since I know that they are more concerned with the principles involved than they are about their share of the kitty.
Equally disturbing are the reports in this morning's papers that an arrangement has been made between the Government and leading noble Lords representing the ACC. Should such reports be accurate we can see no amendments at this stage in the list which would justify a decision to abandon the long-held antagonism to both the principle and practice of the block grant which has been so regularly voiced by the leaders of the ACC and which was repeated so forcefully from all parts of this House during Second Reading. If these reports of arrangements are accurate then I should like to ask whether the noble Lords, Lord Sandford and Lord Greenwood, have also been approached about the possibility of similar arrangements with the ADC and the AMA.
At this stage I do not propose to ask the House to debate the rights and wrongs of Clause 41, or the way in which it will work, or which authorities are due to be penalised, or why. That we can do when we come to the transitional arrangements outlined in the Bill. But what this House is

17
entitled to is an explanation as to why these objectionable steps were taken by a Government Minister without waiting for the views of your Lordships' House and also a statement as to whether the press reports about secret meetings and arrangements are correct. We are a legitimate part of Parliament—it comprises the Crown, the Lords and the Commons—and the whole House will be concerned at the way in which a Government Minister has acted in this instance. The House will not take kindly to such an affront to and disregard of the constitutional rights of your Lordships' House.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, once the words "retrospective legislation" are uttered it is quite inevitable that the ears of my noble friends on the Liberal Benches prick up. In those circumstances, perhaps I ought to indicate very briefly that it is our view that this does not amount at this stage to retrospective legislation, and that an indication given by a Minister that when a Bill on its way through Parliament is enacted he proposes to use powers given under it, is very far removed from being retrospective legislation, certainly of the sort to which we on these Benches would wish to take objection.
I am not in any way supporting what has happened. It may well be that there is a complaint to be made about the selection of the 14 authorities. It may well be that the choice has been arbitrary and difficult to justify on any rational basis. It may be that as a means of reducing public expenditure it will turn out to be totally ineffective. But those are matters that we can properly discuss as we proceed in Committee on this Bill.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, for saying precisely what I would have said on the first of the three points which the noble Baroness makes. In my opinion there is nothing whatsoever wrong, nor can one possibly talk of retrospective action, when what we have said is precisely what we have been pressed to say for some time, not least by the supporters in another place of the noble Lords opposite—or should it be the other way round? I am not sure. The fact is that for some time now we have been pressed to say which authorities, if any, would come within the
18
transitional arrangements when the legislation now going through Parliament becomes an Act. Until that time nothing can or will be done, and I see nothing whatsoever wrong in stating what we intend to do when that happens. That is the position on the first of the points that the noble Baroness has made.
Her second point was about people being shown confidential figures for next year's rate support grant. I am not sure that in this House we should have to defend newspaper articles, because when I read reports such as I read today I find that one paper says one thing and another paper says exactly the opposite about what we are supposed to be doing. I read them initially with some concern, happily finishing up with some amusement because one really does not know which to read next. So on that point I do not think I should have to say other than that I am very surprised that any Members of your Lordships' House should give credence to a suggestion that confidential figures would have been shown. In fact, there are no such figures. There are exemplifications, and those exemplifications are available to all the local authority associations, who have them, and nothing goes beyond that.
On the last point the noble Baroness made, I am absolutely satisfied that there has not in any way been the slightest impropriety. It has long been the normal practice for Government Ministers to be available at any time to anyone who wishes to come along and talk to them about what they may or may not like to see in Bills, by way of amendment or whatever. This, and no more than this, is what is done. Indeed, this has been done by Members of your Lordships' House, on all sides. I say again that I see nothing whatsoever wrong in that. Indeed, I should have thought it would be applauded by your Lordships. I am sorry that as we embark on the very long and arduous task ahead of us we should have to start in a rather unhappy way. But let us hope that we can discuss the many matters we have to discuss on their merits as they come along, and that we can do so in a spirit which is at least in accordance with what I understand is the way in which your Lordships' House always works.
3.16 p.m.
Lord GREENWOOD of ROSSENDALE: My Lords, as my noble friend was so kind as to refer to me and to the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, of which I am president, perhaps I could assure your Lordships without any hesitation whatsoever that there has been no agreement reached or sought to be reached between the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and the Government on the lines to which my noble friend referred. But I think the point at issue is this, and this is the point which the Parliamentary Secretary did not touch on in his comments. It is not the propriety of having discussions, but what would be the impropriety if the Government had reached an agreement on how to conduct the Committee stage of this Bill in your Lordships' House without having discussed that proposal with the other local authority associations. That, I think, is the danger, and I very much hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us assurances on this point. One of the reasons why this issue has become so embittered has been the feeling of the local authorities, both Conservative and Labour, that the Government have not taken their points of view sufficiently into consideration.
Lord SANDFORD: My Lords, as my name has been mentioned as the president of the Association of District Councils perhaps I could make a short contribution at this point. First, in respect of the noble Baroness's point, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made it crystal clear in his statement that the whole of these proposals were subject to the approval of Parliament. That is there in black and white and I think completely vindicates the position in that respect. As to deals and discussions behind the scenes, as described in the Guardian this morning, I would agree with my noble friend that when it comes to the press on this issue, their reporting is unreliable to the most extraordinary degree. I should have thought that we should follow his advice and pay very little attention to the press in these matters. If I were to find, however—and I have not yet done so—that there has been any negotiation with one association and not with the others, I should have to take an extremely serious view of it. I have no evidence to that effect, and I am certainly not going to believe the Guardian until my noble friend
20
gives me some explanation to lead me to think that I should give some credence to it.
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, I do not quite know what is meant in this context by the word "negotiations". If one could substitute "discussions" and "talks" for that word, then of course there have been discussions and talks with all the associations. The door has been and will remain open all the time for that to be done, and that will go on. Beyond that I can only repeat that I know of no reason in any way to consider that there has been any impropriety whatever, and on that basis I suggest we now proceed with the Bill and discuss on their merits the individual amendments and clauses as we come to them.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, may I ask the Minister to clarify one point to the satisfaction of the House? The statement has been made that there have been no negotiations with one local authority body as distinct from any other. Can he confirm that in the discussions that have taken place no invitations have been accorded in regard to those discussions to one association which have not been accorded to the other local authority associations? Can he also confirm that there have been no discussions in relation to the Committee stage of this Bill with one local authority association which have also not taken place with other local authority associations? If he could clarify that in simple language it would make many of us much happier.
Lord BELLWIN: I cannot do anything of the kind, my Lords. The position is absolutely clear. It is up to any association, or indeed any individual Members of your Lordships' House, to come along and talk, and they have done just that. They do not always come together—in fact, they usually do not do so—but come singly and discuss their points of view, and I see nothing at all wrong in that. Noble Lords cannot expect me to justify that which is in the press. I do not feel able to go beyond the explanation I have given. I have not tried to fudge words but to say what the position is, and that is what I seek to do.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, I apologise if I am persistent but the Minister

21
must know that he did not reply to my specific question. I did not talk in terms of discussions, which obviously take place with a Minister if someone seeks discussions. I asked the noble Lord directly whether invitations had been accorded to one association which had not been accorded to another. I further asked whether, in the course of discussions, any arrangements in regard to the Committee stage of this Bill had been made with any one association which had not been made with the others. Those were clear questions and I ask the noble Lord with his usual courtesy to give a clear answer.
Lord BELLWIN: I want to be helpful, my Lords, but I cannot give the kind of answer that would apparently satisfy the noble Lord because I am not sure precisely what it is he is seeking to ascertain. I have tried in good faith to say exactly what has happened, namely, that discussions have taken place with the associations, with individual Members of this House and generally with people who have made suggestions about what they would like the Government to do. That is what it is all about so far as I am aware and I cannot go further.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Relaxation of Ministerial control of authorities]:
3.23 p.m.
Viscount RIDLEY Viscount RIDLEY moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 2, line 5, at end insert ("or police authority").
The noble Viscount said: I will, with permission, speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 3, 12, and 309 as they are all consequential to the police authority matters which I wish to raise at this point. These amendments have been tabled on behalf of the Association of County Councils, who regard the control over the police authorities as being, at a quite unnecessary level and feel that the decisions of those authorities are unable to be acted upon without the approval of the Home Secretary. The Bill is entitled:
22
"An Act to relax controls over local government;"
and although many controls are being removed by this part of the Bill in relation to other departments of State, nowhere are the Home Office removing any control over police or fire authorities, and that is a great mistake in that the opportunity to do so should be taken now.
The attitude of the Home Office seems to be founded on the general duty of the Home Secretary under Section 28 of the Police Act 1964, the special constitutional position of the police and of course the Government's overall responsibility to maintain law and order. As to the special constitutional position, nobody would wish in any way to question the fundamental principle that the operational decisions of policing the country should not be subject to political interference, but the detachment of the police authority from operational decisions is not a justification for greater involvement by central Government in the administration of those things; if anything, it should be quite the reverse. Further, I do not think anybody would dispute that in the last resort no Government should be expected to stand aside from the maintenance of law and order. But while that might justify the retention of some of the reserve powers against a breakdown of any locally administered service, it hardly justifies the sort of detailed structure of control which now exists under the 1964 Act where approval is needed not only for the sort of things that have been mentioned—such as the approval of chief constables and so on—but even for trifling alterations to police stations.
From my experience as a member of a police authority, at one time we wished to give a pension to a retired police dog who had caught many criminals in a long and distinguished career; we wished to supply it with a couple of tins of meat a week, but the Home Office vetoed that as being a control they felt they should exercise. Many members of police authorities feel that when they go on those authorities there is almost nothing they can do. That is very restricting and it is making it difficult to get people to serve on police authorities. We therefore suggest that the Government should remove these controls, which are much more restrictive than those on any other local government

23
service, that Ministers should not be allowed to make decisions on these matters and that, as we heard so often on Second Reading, there should be much more freedom for locally elected local authorities to do what they can within the total approval of Parliament. My noble friend Lord Inglewood spoke strongly on this point on Second Reading and I know that if he were here he would have supported the amendment, because he is a great expert on these police matters. I therefore hope the Committee will approve the amendment.
Lord SANDFORD: I strongly support my noble friend. As noble Lords will recall, the associations between them produced a list earlier last year of a total of 1,000 controls, which in their view could be dismantled, governing the relationship between central and local government. The Government in September of last year then produced a White Paper whittling that number down to 300 about which they were in agreement with the associations. The Bill provides an admirable opportunity to enact legislation dismantling those 300, but in fact the number here is far less than that. I strongly agree with my noble friend that we should take this opportunity to dismantle far more of the controls between central and local government than are contained in the Bill, and the amendment would be a useful addition.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I strongly support the amendment from these Benches and confess that I only wish I had thought of it myself because I have been a member of a police authority for many years and what has been said so far on behalf of the amendment is absolutely correct. It is difficult now to get people who seek prestige without power to serve on a police authority because as a body it is virtually toothless; it cannot even choose assistant chief constables, deputy chief constables or chief constables from an approved list drawn up by the Home Office. It can do virtually nothing. We in the Merseyside area have had a lengthy debate about the purposelessness of a police authority which has such extremely limited powers, and therefore if the amendment could do something to return some powers—not
24
quite on the basis of the old watch committees perhaps—which police authorities used to enjoy, that would be welcomed.
Lord GISBOROUGH: I should like to support this amendment. The Bill supposedly relaxes a number of controls, but it is thought by many counties that the controls relaxed have been minimal and that the efforts to reduce expenditure by county councils could well be helped by reducing the controls further and reducing the staff at the Home Office itself. To my mind, there must surely be an enormous difference between maintenance of police houses and so on and the appointment of chief constables. I hope that the Government will look at this point and perhaps come back to it, in particular on Amendment No. 12 which, I gather, is being considered at the moment.
The power to provide, maintain and alter buildings, et cetera, is surely something that can be relaxed completely. Where I can see some advantage in having control from the centre, I do not think I personally would go along all the way with relaxing controls on the appointment of chief constables. I hope the Government will provide some good news about perhaps relaxing the power to provide, maintain and alter buildings.
Lord GREENWOOD of ROSSENDALE: I should like very much to support the noble Viscount and also the noble Lord who has just sat down. It is the view of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities that the Home Office should be involved in the actual management of the police as little as is consistent with the proper discharge of their responsibilities. That is clearly right. I think it is disappointing that, if I am correctly informed, not one single control over local jurisdiction over the police is removed in the current Bill.
Lord MORRIS: I would like very briefly not to support this amendment. If I recall aright the Second Reading of this Bill, many objections were raised to the effect that it was really about six Bills in one. This is a deliberate attempt to extend the scope of the Bill, and I do not think it is the proper vehicle, whatever the merits of the case may be, and upon those

25
grounds I do not think really that this amendment should stand.
Lord RENTON: Having spent four and a half years—an unconscionably long time—as a junior Minister in the Home Office, I find myself in some difficulty over Amendment No. 12, which is the crux of the matter. Before we surrender the Home Secretary's power to appoint chief constables of all the forces in England and Wales, I think we should bear in mind that although they are separate forces there is really only one career structure. It is in the national interest that there should be some kind of co-ordinating responsibility which only the Home Secretary can exercise to ensure that the best men reach the top, or the tops as it may be, of that career structure. Therefore, I would hope that the Government would not accept that part of Amendment No. 12 which applies to the appointment of chief constables and indeed the determination of the force establishment, because there we have a very large amount of central funds involved.
I have some sympathy with what has been said by the supporters of the amendment about the power to provide, maintain and alter buildings because local knowledge there could be regarded as essential. But when it comes to the position of the deputy acting as chief constable, when there is a vacancy either through promotion or retirement or death, I think it would be wrong for the local authority to prejudge the decisions which, as I have suggested, should be made by the Home Secretary. Therefore, I would have a very great doubt about that item in Amendment No. 12. As to the appointment of the deputy and assistant chief constables, however, there is not much in it.
The Earl of CROMARTIE: May I ask the Minister whether this particular section—and various Scottish Peers may be speaking to it—applies to the police in Scotland? While I am not in it any more, I have been in local government a very long time, and I have therefore been on police committees and I should like to know, because very often the positions are quite different.
3.35 p.m.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead): I wonder whether I might intervene at this point. It seemed to me, in listening to your Lordships, that my noble friend Lord Ridley and other noble Lords who spoke, before Lord Morris, were talking about the removal of controls over local authorities. But of course the effect of these amendments which we are speaking to together would not be simply to relax some central controls over local authorities. They would change the constitutional arrangements for the administration of the police embodied in the Police Act 1964, which followed the report of the Royal Commission in 1962. Your Lordships may remember that the Royal Commission set out the responsibilities of the three elements on which our policing arrangements are based; namely, the chief constables, the police authorities and the Home Secretary.
The Act of 1964 places each force under the direction and control of its chief constable and in this way his operational independence is set out. Secondly, the chief constable is appointed and his force maintained by his police authority. But that is an independent statutory authority composed of two-thirds county councillors and one-third magistrates. The recipient of expenditure of a police authority is the recipient of a specific grant from the Home Secretary. It is to his police authority that the chief constable is generally accountable. Thirdly, the Home Secretary has an essentially supervisory role which your Lordships know about.
May I just add that the Home Secretary's role reflects his responsibility for the maintenance of the Queen's peace—I think I can use that expression—which is one of the prime functions of central Government. This ultimately is the duty of the Home Secretary. I suggest to your Lordships that on this group of amendments it is essential that the Home Secretary should have and should exercise adequate powers to secure the efficiency of the police service. May I very quickly run through them? They are: the powers to approve the appointment of chief constables, to approve the number of police officers in a force, to approve the provision of buildings, to approve a deputy chief constable performing the duties of a chief officer for longer than three months and to approve the appointments of deputy and chief constables.

27
These are only some of the many responsibilities placed on the Home Secretary by the Police Act.
May I at this point, in answer to my noble friend Lord Gisborough, say that the Home Office and the local authority associations have in a working party been looking at the scope for modifying or relaxing control over capital expenditure—it is not maintenance—on police buildings. But all those powers which I have just mentioned would be removed—the whole lot—if your Lordships agreed to the amendments which my noble friend Lord Ridley has moved.
May I detain the Committee for just a moment to say something specific about the three main powers in these amendments? It is of course quite rightly the responsibility of the police authority to appoint its chief officers and to determine the size of its establishment, but in order to ensure the efficiency of the police service the Home Secretary's approval is necessary. This is what we are arguing about this afternoon. Chief constables and their deputy and assistant chief constables exercise a large measure of independent authority. Neither the Home Secretary nor a police authority can instruct a chief constable on how to deploy his men or whether to institute proceedings.
I would add to what my noble friend Lord Renton said, that Parliament expects the Home Secretary, with the professional advice of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, to be able to ensure that officers of the right calibre are appointed, and it is a general, supervisory role. Similarly, the determination of the number and rank of officers needed in each force is crucial to the efficient policing of a particular area. I again suggest to the Committee that Parliament expects the Home Secretary to be in a position, with the professional advice of the inspectorate, to influence those decisions. Moreover, I have not yet heard any of your Lordships mention that the duties given to the Home Secretary ensure that the police are finally accountable to Parliament.
The balance between the three elements in our policing arrangements—chief constables, police authorities, and the Home Secretary—is a delicate one. It may not
28
be perfect—I am sure that it is not—but it is designed to try to ensure accountability without political control. My noble friend, with all his experience of local government, said in his speech that he affirmed his opposition to political control of the police. It strikes me that the effect of the proposed amendments would be to distort in a way that could be dangerous the balance that we have.
May I add a final point, a further reason why I am resisting these amendments. My noble friend knows that the present Government came into office with a commitment to the rule of law and to the morale of the police service, a commitment that I am sure we share on all sides of the Committee. At the moment recruitment to the police service is buoyant. In order to ensure an accountable police service that carries out its duties efficiently, there must be a system of checks and balances, and I am suggesting to the Committee that we have such a system and that it really cannot be tinkered with in a piecemeal fashion, which these amendments would represent. Therefore I hope that, in the light of what I have said, my noble friend Lord Ridley will not press his amendment, and that perhaps all of us can profit by afterwards looking again at what has been said during this debate.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I should like to say a few words following the speech of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I very much agree with the general thrust of his argument, and if the noble Viscount were to press his amendment, I should unhesitatingly vote against it. Having had the kind of responsibility that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has had in the Home Office, I am bound to say that the withdrawal from the Home Secretary of this form of power would in my view be highly disadvantageous to the public interest.
The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has pointed out that it is highly desirable to keep a decent distance between political partisanship on local authorities—which is a perfectly proper element within local government, as we all know—and the kind of responsibilities that police authorities have. On the basis of an experience that I had in relation to one particular local authority, where there had been

29
great anxiety relating to the relationship between a chief officer of police and certain members of a police authority—a problem which arose fairly recently, within the last few years—I am bound to say that the idea that a police authority should be able to appoint a chief officer without any approval being given by the Home Secretary would seem to me to be highly undesirable so far as the public interest was concerned.
It seems to me quite clear that it is proper that a member of Government who has a clear duty to be responsible for the maintenance of the Queen's peace, should have the right to make a judgment about whether an individual senior officer of police is a fit and appropriate person to be a chief constable. As the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has pointed out, chief constables have very substantial powers—and rightly so. But I must say that the idea that the police authority should be able to appoint a senior officer without the Home Secretary of the day indicating that that officer is a fit and proper person to occupy that particular post seems to me highly undesirable, and I very much hope that as a result of this the noble Viscount will not press the amendment, because I simply do not believe that the passage of such a provision would do other than very substantial damage so far as the morale in the police service is concerned.
Viscount RIDLEY: I should like to thank those noble Lords who have supported me and I wish to thank, too, my noble friend Lord Belstead for his very full reply. He produced what I thought was a perfectly marvellous case for 100 per cent. specific grant for the police force; in other words, if the Government have such total control over every single aspect of it, then why do they not pay for the whole of the service?—and that would make the block grant that much less necessary in the future.
However, I shall not press these amendments, but before we leave this matter I should like to ask the Minister whether perhaps at Report stage he would accept a minor amendment in order to free from controls the building regulations—the detailed interference with matters regarding police stations, police houses and so forth—which I believe most noble
30
Lords would support. I would certainly withdraw the proposal regarding chief constables et cetera, but if what I now mention is acceptable, I should like to return to it on Report.
Lord BELSTEAD: Of course, anything that my noble friend puts forward will be carefully considered by the Government in their reply at the Report stage, but I cannot give him an undertaking that we would agree to an amendment on Report about police buildings. I say that for the reason that I gave in my speech: namely, that this matter has been the subject of discussions between the Home Office and the local authority associations in a working party, and I feel that we ought to secure agreement from that working party before we insert a single amendment of that kind in a local government Bill. I trust that that is not too unhelpful a reply, and with that I hope that my noble friend will now withdraw this particular first amendment.
Viscount RIDLEY: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.45 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers)The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers) moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 7, leave out from ("to") to second ("to") in line 9 and insert ("a right of appeal").
The noble Earl said: On behalf of my noble friend, may I move this amendment which is really a technical amendment. It is consequential upon amendments that were made to the Bill in another place. As originally drafted, Schedule 1 contained provisions which abolished the rights of complaint to Ministers and requirements for ministerial approval, confirmation or consent, but all these provisions have now been moved elsewhere in order to improve the layout of the Bill. Consequently the words which this amendment seeks to move from Clause 1(1), which governs the schedule, are now redundant. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 3 not moved.]
Earl FERRERS Earl FERRERS moved Amendment No. 4:

31
Page 2, line 14, leave out ("any default powers") and insert ("power to require a local authority to make byelaws").
The noble Earl said: This is another technical drafting amendment which is necessary to effect the repeal in Schedule 1 of the power of the Minister to require a local authority to make byelaws in respect of slaughterhouses under Section 12(1) and Section 16(1)(a) of the Slaughterhouses Act 1974. Since no ministerial default powers are being repealed in Schedule 1, this amendment is necessary to make the position clear. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Earl FERRERS Earl FERRERS moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, line 19, leave out from ("limiting") to end of line 21 and insert—

("(a) the powers of the Secretary of State and the Treasury to supervise local authorities, water authorities and river purification authorities in the discharge of their functions relating to clean air and pollution; and

(b) the powers of the Treasury to control rates of interest on sums payable to such authorities and to the Secretary of State in respect of expenses incurred by them in the discharge of such functions.").

The noble Earl said: This is another amendment of a similar nature. At present Clause 1(2) does not refer to the supervisory powers of the Secretary of State in relation to river purification authorities in Scotland; nor does it refer to the powers of the Treasury, which are being repealed in Schedule 2, to fix rates of interest by reference to which local and other authorities fix the rates of interest which they may recover in addition to any expenses incurred by them in discharging their functions under the Clean Air Acts and the Control of Pollution Act. This amendment remedies both these omissions. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare): Amendment No. 6. I have to point out that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 7.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY Lord WALLACE of COSLANY moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 30, leave out subsection (5).
The noble Lord said: I think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we discuss Amendments Nos. 6, 7, and 15 together, since they all relate to allotment garden provision and finance. At a later stage I shall separately move each of the other amendments, and I now formally move Amendment No. 6.
During the Second Reading of the Bill we had two excellent speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, and my noble and very eloquent friend Lord Davies of Leek on the important issue of the effect of the Bill on allotment garden provision. In replying to the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, made no answer on the vexed question of allotment provision. True, the noble Lord said that he would write to the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, but the House as a whole was denied the opportunity of hearing the Government's point of view, especially on new allotment legislation. However, I want to be very fair. The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, was under great pressure in trying to reply to the many and varied points made on this monster of a Bill, which could almost be described as "the incredible hulk".
Like the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, I have to declare an interest as I am president of the London Society of Recreational Gardeners and, as such, practise what I preach. The amendments before the Committee are, with one exception (Amendment No. 15 which deals with the proposed repeal of Section 54 of the 1908 Act), similar to those dealt with on the Report stage in another place. The purpose of the amendment is to retain the present position of various legislative Acts governing allotment provision, some seven in all, until the Government have completed their review of the Thorpe Report and introduce new legislation consolidating and revising the present law, promised by the previous Labour Government which set up the departmental Committee of Inquiry into Allotments in 1966, chaired by the late Professor Harry Thorpe, and more or less promised by the present Government, in spite of the provisions of this Bill.
If the Government are in earnest in their idea of introducing new legislation based on the Thorpe Report (Cmnd. 4166), why make the changes proposed in this

33
Bill? It simply does not make sense. Should the Government not accept the amendments designed to preserve the status quo pending their promised legislation, then I trust they will seize the point of the amendment which provides for the holding back of this Bill's provisions on allotments until 1st January 1982, thus giving them time to bring in the proposed consolidating and revising legislation.
In another place during the proceedings of Standing Committee D (Official Report, Standing Committee D, 12th February 1980, col. 46) the Minister for the Government said:
"At present, we are considering comprehensive legislation to take in the Thorpe report. There has been in the background of the Government's thinking for some time what is called a recreational gardening Bill".
Similar legislation was promised by the previous Government during the debate on my Motion in this House on 17th March 1976, and now we have the hint of a promise from the present Government. May I ask whether the Minister could be a shade more positive tonight and give a categorical statement of intention to legislate? It would be better for the Government to abandon their repeal of the various sections of the allotment Acts, in order to provide, within a reasonable period, new comprehensive legislation which has been urgently needed for years and to which objective both Labour and Conservative Governments have given lip service.
There is an increasing demand for allotment gardens. More people are realising the economic and health values of growing their own fruit and vegetables. Modern housing development—and this is an important point—provides either a pocket handkerchief garden or none at all. Increasing unemployment and inflation are also factors to be taken into account. On a conservative estimate, at least 120,000 people are still waiting for allotment plots. In 1969 it was estimated that there were about 560,000 allotments covering 60,000 acres; by 1977 the number had declined to 498,000, covering 50,000 acres. The decline is still continuing.
This Bill will not increase the amount of land being made available for allotments. It will decrease it further because Government pressures, in this Bill and other measures, will force local authorities
34
to look for sources of additional revenue and sales of land will be tempting. Having sold the land and reduced the acreage available for allotments, the local authority may then decide to use the money for other purposes. This is not new. On the Second Reading of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, gave the example of Croydon, and there are others using money specified for allotments for other purposes. It is well known that support for allotments among local authorities is very patchy, and there are reluctant providers under the present legislation. Some are reducing need by inflating allotment rents to extortionate rates. The repeal of legislation as outlined in this Bill will play right into their hands.
How can there be a legal obligation within legislation for the provision of allotments when Schedule 5 does away with legislative safeguards? Section 54 of the 1908 Act is to be repealed in Schedule 5. No longer will it be our statutory obligation to keep separate allotment accounts. Yet in Clause 2 the Government insist on local authorities not only keeping accounts but publishing them and making information widely available. In other words, open government—but not for allotments.
I accept that allotment holders are a minority interest. It is the responsibility of Parliament to protect the rights of minorities and not wash its hands of responsibilities by repealing what is protective legislation. It is Parliament's responsibility in the national interest to encourage provision of allotment plots; to ensure environmental interest by laying down standards of provision and maintenance. It is Parliament's responsibility to ensure adequate use of waste land for food production, and to benefit the environment and the nation's economy as a result. It is simply not good enough for the Government to push responsibilities on local authorities, quite a number of whom for various reasons, mainly anti-social, do their best to evade even their present responsibilities.
No one denies that new legislation is needed on allotment provision and maintenance. The present Acts need to be consolidated and brought up to date. Rents should be in line with charges made for other recreational pursuits. No one at present seems able to find what

35
is a reasonable rent. There is, however, a High Court case pending and I will not develop that point further at this stage. There is need to take into account social changes since the inception of allotment garden provision.
I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, to read the contribution of his noble friend Lord Sandys in the debate on 17th March 1976. Dealing with the Thorpe Report (Official Report, 17th March 1976, cols. 234 to 241) the noble Lord said:
"The allotment authority has a difficult task. It must first refer to the Act of 1908 to learn about its obligations. Then it has to look to the Acts of 1922 and 1950 to discover the extent of their operation. Then it must turn back to the basic Act, the Act of 1908, to understand how it may acquire the land to fulfil those obligations, and then move forward to the Act of 1925 to find the rules relating to the disposal of such land. No wonder there is a problem in managing land in this particular field".
Later, he said this:
"The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, referred in considerable detail to the problems caused to local authorities, and he rightly castigated many of them for indifference. One of the strongest indictments in the whole Report occurs on page 96, when again the same body, the Select Committee, says this:
'The strongest indictment of the attitude of some local authorities came from the students working on our behalf'.
"They give these quotations from their research:
'Allotments are treated in a very cavalier fashion'.
'The local authority takes little interest in allotments'.
'Administration is very haphazard'.
'The local authorities seem out of touch with allotment affairs'."
The noble Lord, Lord Sandys, concluded:
"That is really a clear indictment of local authorities, and I think that the case is made."
Yet, the Government, in repealing measures in Clause 1, are passing responsibilities on to local authorities and evading their own responsibility. The noble Lord, Lord Sandys, in that excellent speech of his in March 1976—and, quite frankly, I could quote the whole of his speech as an argument for my case—made a passionate appeal for new legislation based on the Thorpe Report. I appeal to the Government to heed his words, which are a complete vindication of the purpose of the amendments set down in my name. If the Government are sincere in their desire
36
to bring in new allotment legislation, then they should accept the main amendment and, in so doing—and this is not an unimportant point—reduce the size of this Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness BACON: I should like very briefly to support my noble friend who has just spoken. As he said, during the Second Reading debate the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, raised this matter, and then, when it came to the winding-up, the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, said that because the noble Lord, Lord Broad-bridge, was not present he would write to him. Like my noble friend who has just spoken, I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, had a great many points to which he had to reply. Nevertheless, a number of us would have been interested to see what was in that letter.
Just a few days ago I was opening a vegetable and flower show, most of the produce for which came from allotments, and I want to bring it home to the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, what a great deal of feeling there is about this matter on the part of the allotment associations. The people who spoke to me during the afternoon on which I opened the show were all asking me what the Government's intentions were, but I am afraid I had to say, as I had to say in my speech, that I did not know and I would not know until we got to the Committee stage of this Bill.
As my noble friend has said, there are far more allotment holders these days, and a great waiting list of those who wish to become allotment holders. This is due to two or three reasons, perhaps: first, the outdoor life; second, the high cost of vegetables these days; and, third, the increasing use of freezers, which means that those who have allotments or small gardens can freeze the produce to last them for many months ahead. The allotment holders and the associations feel that this Bill takes away something which they have had since 1925, and they would like to know whether anything is going to be put in the place of these powers which are being taken away. My noble friend has mentioned the Thorpe Report. Perhaps the Government are anticipating that they will take some action on this report, but, again, we do not know. Therefore, I would be very pleased indeed if the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin,

37
could give us the answer to some of these questions in order to try to allay the fears of the allotment holders, but if he cannot do that then at least to delay action until 1982, as my noble friend has suggested.
Lord GISBOROUGH: I should like briefly to support these amendments. The allure of the development of allotment gardens is very strong, and it happens over and over again. The value of the recreational effect of allotment gardens is well enough known, both from the point of view of growing vegetables and because of the very thriving pigeon clubs which there are throughout the country. They also provide an extremely valuable channel through which people can divert their energies, as well as providing a means by which people can use self-help in times of shortage. Two or three years ago, when there were great shortages, the value of allotments and the value of home-grown vegetables was very obvious. I hope that the Government will really look into this and make certain that this Bill does not do anything to reduce the provision of allotments, which would be disastrous.
4.4 p.m.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: I first want to say that I will not delay the Committee very long because the arguments are known on both sides of this Chamber. I sincerely believe that we should remember that twice in my lifetime there has been a rush back to the land so far as allotments are concerned, and that the great posters throughout Britain said, "Dig for Victory". I am sorry; I omitted to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin. During the Recess he was kind enough to write me a long letter putting his point of view. He was, as he always is, courteous, succinct and cogent. Nevertheless, one can be cogent and the argument can be on the wrong hypothesis. One must always remember that. It depends on the hypothesis with which you begin, though the arguments may be absolutely brilliant—in fact par excellence in that respect.
As I have said, I will be brief, about three minutes, so do not worry, but I want to point out that during the Recess I have had numerous letters. My study table was about a foot high with letters from local authorities. Never in the
38
history of Parliament has Parliament been so overwhelmed by Left, Right and Centre, non-Trotskyite and ultra-Right Wing councils pleading and begging both sides of your Lordships' Committee to do something to rescue the allotments of Great Britain. During the debate in the other place on 14th February 1980, during the Committee stage of the Bill, with reference to the London Society of Recreational Gardeners, Mr. Tom King, the Minister for Local Government and Environmental Services, said—and I do not want to quote him fully—that it remains a legal responsibility on the councils that their first priority is to use the proceeds of sale of allotment land in the first instance for allotment purposes.
In this amendment we are asking that the authority of the Minister should still be paramount in the case of these allotments. It is no good saying, "We are giving a freer hand to local authorities". Beggars have a free hand. You could say, "We cannot help the beggars; they are free to do well for themselves". It is the same with those who are sick and lonely. In other words, freedom can be true freedom only if there is something which will give you comfort and succour during that period of freedom, and one thing is to be fed. That is one of the necessities, despite the massive growth—and here is the 64,000 dollar point. Never mind the party politics; whichever party is in power, during the next four, five, six or seven years, may be, we shall have the shadow of unemployment over this country—and here is something which could help those people to produce their own produce. If people were not so "toffee-nosed" about keeping a pig and a chicken or a cockerel on an allotment it would be a better Britain. There is nothing to be "toffee-nosed" about: it is common sense so far as keeping an allotment is concerned.
All I want to say is that there is much more than pinpointing tiny arguments; there is the reality. Digging for victory and producing more food can save money on the overseas balance of trade. Goodness knows why we are loading the country with French apples! I myself can grow better cabbages than they import! Why are we doing this? Probably 40 per cent. of the households of Britain could produce the basic vegetables themselves,

39
and could thus save overwhelming millions for the country. The argument is self-evident. I do not want to drop in my old-fashioned Latin, but there is a tag. The argument is self-evident; and I beg the Minister, who is a kindly Minister and who takes trouble to reply to us, to get back to the rock which is holding him down under the water and to shift from this argument—this sterile argument, lacking in reality—and think about digging for victory and the future of Britain.
Lord KILMARNOCK: After that spendid performance from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, may I add a few temporate words from the Cross-Benches? I should like, in principle, thoroughly to support the amendment which has been so ably argued by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. In my opinion, it is of extreme importance at a time of rising unemployment—and I am afraid that none of us can deny that unemployment is rising and is likely to continue to rise—that allotments should be available both for leisure purposes and, indeed, for the purposes of family food production at a time when the incomes of many families are liable to go down. All those propositions are in my view incontestable, and on those grounds I thoroughly support the amendment.
There is only one slight reservation that I have. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, referred to extortionate rentals for allotments. This is possibly the crux of the matter. If a fair rental policy for allotments could be found or a code of practice could become established, this might go a long way towards solving the problem. In an area with which I am familiar, half-acre allotments are being let at £5 a year. One of the local ratepayers complained to me this morning that he reckoned that this upped his rates by £36 a year. He was asking why he should subsidise these allotments. The parish council had added a fourpence or fivepence rate in order to make the new allotment development, of which I approve. Five pounds a year is little in the present day and age and I would suggest to most authorities who are interested in this matter that perhaps 50 pence a week would be a reasonable rent for a productive allotment, particularly when you have half an acre
40
which would take you beyond the bounds of family production and bring you into market production. That is the only minor reservation that I have. I think that that should be studied and, with that reservation, I should like to support the amendment.
Viscount SIMON: Since my noble friend Lord Avebury has added his name to this amendment, I should like to say a few words from these Benches. Everything in support of the amendment has been said and we all want to get on with the business. My only disagreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, is that I myself would not think it a good idea to keep pigs on an allotment and I believe that the holders of neighbouring allotments also would not think it a good idea.
Apart from that, I am certain that allotments are of an immense value to the country, not only for what they produce but for the opportunities they give to people; and, if, unfortunately, we are going to have a number of unemployed people, that is an added reason to preserve the allotments. If the Government are going to tell us that they are contemplating producing a Bill next Session to put the whole question of allotments on to a new basis, that is a different matter. I should still think, with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, that in those circumstances it would be better to leave the law as it stands now and to start from there rather than make amendments which in the course of the Session might have to be altered once again.
Lord BROADBRIDGE: In what appears to be in conclusion, I should like to support the noble Lord on this amendment. I wish to declare my interest as president of the National Association of Allotment Gardeners and I should like also to reassure the Committee that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, did write to me; and I thank him for his letter.
I spoke at Second Reading on the general context into which fall the eight lines or so in this Bill which affect allotments; and I do not propose to go over that again. In allotment affairs, as in other aspects of our daily lives affected by this Bill, we have been told by the Government that they are motivated by

41
their belief that local people know best. In this case, "local people" are the local authorities and, broadly, excepting the local authorities who are so stupid that they do not know anything—and there are some like that—they do know best. But it does not follow that they will do the best for their electors, particularly those electors who are not organised in such a way as to be able to make a loud and continuing noise if their interests are overlooked. It costs money to make a noise, and most allotment holders are fully occupied with facing the difficulties that nature throws at them. They are not militant in the commonly accepted sense of the word today and most do not have much money to spare. Such people consistently get the thin end of the legislative wedge and it is nonsense to say that every elector has a remedy at election time for the town hall.
I should like to reinforce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, that when we speak of allotments we are talking about a significant part of the lives of over half a million people of all ages, races, colours and creeds. One of the commonest and most constructive purposes of national law is the protection of the minority, the protection of the weak, the unfashionable and the poor. I would put most allotment-holders into all those categories.
As I said on Second Reading—and I see no reason to change my ground even after the letter from Lord Bellwin—I do not believe that the local authorities can be relied on to do what they may well know to be best. The law must provide for that. Such provision as we have is contained in the Allotment Acts, and the Government propose in this Bill to repeal most of them and to replace them with nothing. Clause 1(5) refers to nine repeals and to nothing new. "Repeals" is not a word that I apply subjectively. Reference to Schedule 5 to the Bill will show that the word "omit" is used in every case. The financial implications of the proposed repeals give me most cause for concern. This is the case particularly with the proposal to repeal Section 32(2) of the 1908 Act. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, very clearly put the case for the retention of that legislation, and I should like to add my agreement.
42
The second principal concern that I have lies in the area which in recent years has come to be called "the desire for open government"—which I support. This concerns, first, the proposed repeal of Section 28(3) of the 1908 Act. Finally, consolidated in my mind with the removal of open government, is the proposal to repeal Sections 54 and 59 of the 1908 Act, which require local authorities respectively to keep separate accounts of receipts and expenditure on allotments and stipulate that they are to make an annual statement of their allotment receipts, expenditures and liabilities (I quote)
"to be deposited at some convenient place in the borough",
and require them to supply information on their activities to enable an annual report to Parliament to be made of proceedings nationally under the Act. If these repeals are made, the local authorities cannot be called on for an account of their stewardship so far as allotments are concerned and no one will be able to give any information as to the allotment situation nationally. It is difficult enough to do it at the moment, but it will become completely impossible. Now that the Minister has made a specific Statement in the other place that he has a new gardeners' Bill in mind, I really feel that gardeners' best interests would be served by holding our hand now. I support this amendment and I hope that many noble Lords here today will be able to do so in what surely is a field above party politics.
Earl FERRERS: The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, said that my noble friend Lord Bellwin was a kindly Minister who listened to everything that was said. He is right; he does. Unfortunately, it falls to me to answer the noble Lord and I assure him that I am not nearly so kindly as my noble friend Lord Bellwin but that I have tried to listen to every word that has been said. I would say this. I find that to all the contributions which have been made so far it is impossible to take exception; because the main points made are that allotments are vitally essential to the well-being of the country and to the production of food, are essential for leisure and form a centre piece of our society.
With all that I am in total agreement. But I think that there is a misconception, and an understandable one. I say that

43
with a great deal of respect, because the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, is an expert on allotments—as I have had cause to know—as is the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge; and anything I say would be subject to that respect.
The inference is—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, put this in his usual exciting and well understandable way when he said that we must rescue the allotments of Britain—that the Government are doing something terrible to the allotments of Britain and are actually sinking them. I can assure the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Leek and Lord Broadbridge, that that is not what is being done. All that we are doing is removing what we believe to be unnecessary ministerial powers over the local authorities; because we believe that the local authorities are those who know best how to run the allotments in their areas.
I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Broadbridge, took exception to that. He feels that sometimes the Government know best. But our general philosophy is that, on the whole, the local authorities know best. There is one vital exception: Section 8 of the Allotments Act 1925 was going to be repealed, but in view of the pressure which was brought in another place we decided not to do that. That permits the Secretary of State to retain the power for consent for any dealings with allotment land. If any local authorities wish to dispose of their allotment lands, then they have to get the permission of the Secretary of State to do so.
Lord Davies of LEEK: I beg the noble Earl's pardon for interrupting but this is quite a point. We are delighted with what he has said; but the next thing is, once permission has been given to get rid of some allotment land what happens to the money? I hope the situation is not going to be like in Epsom or somewhere, where it is used to furnish the town hall or something. We want to know that the allotment money will go to further allotment lands.
Earl FERRERS: Any money which is raised by the sale of allotment lands, which has to have the approval of the Secretary of State, then has to go towards paying off any liabilities which the local authority
44
may have on the allotment holdings—not just on that which has been sold but on all their allotment holdings. Thereafter, any balance which is left is for the use of the local authority in such ways as they think fit. This is a cardinal retention which we are keeping in this Bill.
The local authorities are still obliged under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act to provide allotments where the local authorities are of the opinion that there is a demand for them, and it says that they shall provide them. So there is no destruction of the provision of allotments. All we are doing in this part of the Bill is to remove the Secretary of State's "interference" over what we believe is the right area for local authorities to deal with.
If I may give the Committee one or two examples, Section 28(3) of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908 says that rules which are made by the local authorities for the management of their allotments are to be confirmed by the Secretary of State. We do not think that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to confirm rules which local authorities require to make over the running of their allotments. Section 39(2) refers to the Secretary of State's consent to local authorities making a grant or advance to a co-operative allotment society. At the moment if a local authority wishes to make a grant they have to get the Secretary of State's permission. We do not believe that that is necessary. All these things which are being repealed are relatively small but irritating involvements of the Secretary of State in areas which are best reserved to the local authorities.
The proposals in the Bill are designed solely to remove those central Government controls over local authorities' allotment activities which are no longer considered necessary. That does not imply that the Government regard allotment as unimportant or do not believe in people helping themselves by growing their own food. We feel they have an important part to play. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, asked how one can get more land when one repeals the protective laws relating to allotments. Again, with respect, that is an exaggeration of the situation. We are not repealing the protective laws relating to allotments; all we are doing is repealing the exercise

45
of the power of the Secretary of State over the local authorities.
The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, asked whether the Government were going to introduce a Bill incorporating the recommendations of the Thorpe Report. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said that if we were doing this then it is a pity to tinker around with the position at the moment. I can only tell the noble Lord that we believe in the powers of a local authority to remove the "interference" of the Secretary of State, and that is why we are proposing to do this. We are considering, as my right honourable friend the Minister of State for the Department of the Environment and Minister for Local Government said, comprehensive legislation to take in the Thorpe Report. As the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, knows, it has been the background to the Government's thinking for some time to introduce a recreational gardening Bill. We are looking at this position but I cannot give any further commitment on it than that.
I think it is correct that at this stage we should remove the Secretary of State's powers; but that does not mean that we are harming, hurting or denigrating one little bit the influence of allotments or allotment holders. I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied with that assurance.
4.27 p.m.
Lord AVEBURY: Naturally we all agree with the Minister that unnecessary ministerial powers over local authorities should be eliminated wherever possible, and that government should reside as close to the people as is practicable. However, we are arguing in this amendment that perhaps some degree of ministerial control beyond what has been conceded by the noble Earl opposite is required, and that perhaps experience shows that local authorities may not be trusted entirely to exercise the powers that provide allotments as the Minister would advocate.
We have no figures from him of the waiting lists of people wanting to use allotments. I understand that those have been building up considerably. The standards of provision are not adequate in very many areas of the country. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek,
46
has just prompted me, the demand is likely to grow because in eras of high unemployment such as we have, unfortunately, today—and we can see no sign of an end to that—there is a considerable worsening in the number of people out of work, and there is a great incentive for people to try to grow their own food. They should be encouraged to do so, not only because it helps them to be self-reliant and gives their families the fresh foods that they would be unable to afford in the shops, but also because in general, and apart from the present economic climate, we want to encourage allotments for the recreational facilities that they provide. We also want to do this from the national point of view, because all sides of the House were agreed some years ago, when we debated the White Paper Food from our Own Resources, that it was a good idea to try to increase agricultural production generally. That includes the very substantial provision which is made by allotments.
It has been calculated that the potential of food production from allotments could be as much as £120 million. That money not only is in addition to the gross domestic product but it also means that £120 million worth of food does not have to be imported from overseas. Therefore we should consider very seriously whether we want to go as far down the road as the noble Earl suggested; whether we want in effect to retain the legal obligation on local authorities to provide allotments but to remove from the statute book all available checks.
I thought that the speech to which we have just listened was a little disingenuous because the sections from the Small Holdings and Allotments Act which the Minister quoted as being removed were indeed all the trivial ones. He left out those repeals which are of fundamental importance, such as Section 54 (1) under which local authorities have to obtain the authorisation of the Secretary of State before they transfer allotment funds to other purposes. Then there is Section 22(1)(b) of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act 1919, under which the Secretary of State has to sanction the disposal of allotment land for other purposes. The danger which many of us foresee is that, in the present climate of restrictions on local authority spending, there will be a very serious temptation

47
for local authorities with allotment areas in high-value parts of cities to dispose of them for developments and to use the proceeds to mitigate the effect on the ratepayers of increases in local authority spending in other areas.
To give one further example, there is Section 8 of the Allotments Act 1925 where, again, the Secretary of State not only has to give consent to the disposal of allotments, but, in addition, has to ensure that adequate provision will be made for allotment holders displaced by the action of the local authority, or that such provision is unnecessary or not reasonably practicable. So for those reasons, and others which have been advanced, I sincerely hope that the Committee will not accept the inadequate explanation which has been given by the Minister, but will press this matter to a Division.
4.32 p.m.
Earl FERRERS: I wonder whether I may say this to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I find it very difficult to answer some of the points he has made, because it is rather like a person talking in one language and having a reply in another language. He said that he was concerned to see that there is proper production from allotments, that people are requiring allotments and that there is not enough provision of allotments. All that I agree with but, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, that has nothing to do with the amendment. All that the amendment does is to remove the Secretary of State's powers in Schedule 5. All the points to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred are still being kept.
I said in my original speech that Section 8 of the Allotments Act requires local authorities to get the Secretary of State's permission before they sell any land. So that is a very severe restriction, and that remains. The Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908 still remains and that puts an obligation on local authorities to provide allotment land where they consider that there is a requirement for it. The noble Lord said that I have not given any figures as to how many allotments there are, how many people are queueing up and so on. I am bound to say I
48
cannot give the noble Lord that information, because I do not happen to have it.
I do not happen to have it, not because I have not done my homework, but because the figures are not available as it is not considered the normal kind of statistic which a Government would keep. But I assure the noble Lord that these important provisions for the protection of allotments are being kept.
Lord AVEBURY: Under Section 59 of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908, the Secretary of State is supposed to be obliged to report annually to Parliament on the state of allotment provision, and the reason given by the Government for the abolition of this section is that it has not been invoked.
Earl FERRERS: That is right. I think that was last done in about 1940. It has not been done since then, because people thought that they had better get on with fighting the war, as opposed to giving reports to Parliament about the situation of our allotments—
Lord AVEBURY: The war is over.
Earl FERRERS: I know that the war is over and that we are 40 years ahead. But I do not see the advantage in the Secretary of State giving reports to Parliament, particularly when that has not been done. Of course, if the noble Lord and the party he represents like to go back 40 years, that is for them, but I cannot suggest that that would be a suitable course of action to take. One of the reasons why this is being repealed is simply that it is not being done now.
If your Lordships look at Schedule 5, you will see what is being repealed. I have referred to the management of allotments. We consider that that is a proper thing for local authorities to do, and is not something for the Secretary of State to be involved with. As regards the use of surplus money, I have explained that where a local authority sell their land after having had the permission of the Secretary of State, they have to pay off all their capital requirements with regard to their allotments before they use the money which they have obtained. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Ave-bury, referred to the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act 1919. That has been

49
overtaken by the 1925 Act and therefore, although that part is being repealed, its provisions are retained in Section 8 of the 1925 Act.
Further down, the Allotments Act 1922 gives the outer London boroughs the right to have recourse to the Minister. It seems to us that it is perfectly reasonable for the outer London boroughs to be on the same principle as everyone else and to be responsible to the local authorities. Then there is the Allotments Act 1925. That leaves out Section 13 which enjoins local authorities to keep separate records of purchases. Local authorities will keep records of the land which they purchase, and we do not see any reason for telling them to keep additional records. So I hope your Lordships will realise that what we seek to repeal in subsection (5) are only small but, nevertheless irritating restrictions which at the moment the Secretary of State can impose on local authorities. We do not seek to remove the overriding right of the Secretary of State to approve or disapprove of the sale of allotment land.
Lord GISBOROUGH: Could the Minister say to what extent it will be possible for the Secretary of State, on allowing a council to sell allotment land, to demand that it is replaced by an equal amount of land?
Earl FERRERS: That, of course, is a matter for the local authority. Once having sold some land if a local authority, under the Acts to which I have referred, consider that there is a requirement for more land and they desire to buy it, they can do so. They can spend their money as for any other purpose. That is a matter for the local authority.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: I ought to try to put the noble Earl out of his misery, because, with all due respect to him, he has waffled—but with his usual charm. I cannot give him greater praise than that.
Earl FERRERS: Try a little harder.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: The noble Earl was skirting around first one thing and then another. He said that these are not very important repeals and
50
that the local authorities can be trusted. I say to the noble Earl that I do not trust local authorities. I was almost fed on local authorities in my early days. One of the first committees that I was put on as a young councillor was the cabbages and greens committee, as the local allotments committee was called, and if there was ever a cinderella committee on a local authority it was that. The Minister knows that as well as I do. He had a magnificent record in local government. The allotments people were considered a damned nuisance, and that is why we are very fearful about giving more powers to local authorities.
Those of us who have served in local government, and who are keen on the spreading of gardening as a leisure pursuit, and for health and recreation, have had constant battles with local authorities. Yet here is Parliament proposing to give over completely its watching brief, particularly in regard to Section 54 of the old Act which deals with the annual report to Parliament on finance. This is not a small matter and Parliament should keep a watching brief. I am not speaking in a party sense or a Government sense. We have to set a lead and build up the provision in these councils which is urgently needed.
There is another point which I should like to make. The noble Earl repeated what was said in another Chamber, that the Government are thinking—that is a tremendous achievement, anyway — of bringing in new legislation. Of course, the noble Earl cannot commit himself completely because there is to be a State Opening on 13th November and we must not anticipate Her Majesty's gracious Speech. But if the Government intend to bring in legislation—and they say that they are—why on earth fiddle about with it in this Bill? Further amendments might be needed when dealing with this vital subject. About seven Acts are already confusing local authorities, the Government and everybody else.
It is about time that we had this legislation. In this case, as I have said, it is all right. To drop this subsection would please noble Lords. Anything that would diminish the size of this monster of a Bill would be more than gladly welcomed. I say that almost with tears in my eyes. We are repealing Parliament's watching

51
brief. The Government say that they are to bring in consolidating legislation which has been awaited for at least 10 years, so why fiddle about with it in this Bill? If we give them two years to bring in the new Bill we will do all we possibly can to help the Government. Let us take this subsection out of the Bill. That would give us peace for the time being. Then we could come to the more
contentious business that we have to face. I am completely dissatisfied and I am going to press this amendment to a Division.
4.42 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 91; Not-Contents, 133.

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

Glenamara, L.

Pargiter, L.

Ardwick, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Parry, L.

Avebury, L.

Gosford, E.

Peart, L.

Aylestone, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Phillips, B.

Bacon, B.

Hale, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Balogh, L.

Halsbury, E.

Plant, L.

Banks, L.

Hampton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Beswick, L.

Hanworth, V.

Birk, B.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Reilly, L.

Blyton, L.

Henderson, L.

Roberthall, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Broadbridge, L. [Teller.]

Hylton-Foster, B.

Sainsbury, L.

Brockway, L.

Ilchester, E.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Simon, V.

Byers, L.

Jacques, L.

Stamp, L.

Chitnis, L.

Janner, L.

Stedman, B.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Jeger, B.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Collison, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stone, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Strabolgi, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Leatherland, L.

Strauss, L.

David, B.

Listowel, E.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Underhill, L.

Denington, B.

Loudoun, C.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

McCarthy, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Maelor, L.

Whaddon, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Melville, V.

Wigoder, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Meston, L.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

Gardiner, L.

Mishcon, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Oram, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Cathcart, E.

Ferrers, E.

Ailesbury, M.

Clwyd, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Cockfield, L.

Freyberg, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Gage, V.

Alport, L.

Cromartie, E.

Gainford, L.

Amory, V.

Cross, V.

Gormanston, V.

Ampthill, L.

Daventry, V.

Gowrie, E.

Armstrong, L.

de Clifford, L.

Haig, E.

Auckland, L.

De Freyne, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Avon, E.

De La War, E.

Balerno, L.

De L'Isle, V.

Hankey, L.

Bellwin, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Harvington, L.

Belstead, L.

Digby, L.

Hatherton, L.

Berkeley, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Henley, L.

Birdwood, L.

Dundee, E.

Hereford, V.

Blake, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Hill of Luton, L.

Boardman, L.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Jeffreys, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Jessel, L.

Bradford, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Kemsley, V.

Bridgeman, V.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Kimberley, E.

Caithness, E.

Enniskillen, E.

Kintore, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Knutsford, V.

Carrington, L. (A Principal Secretary of State)

Exeter, M.

Lauderdale, E.

Faithfull, B.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Long, V.

Northchurch, B.

Sempill, Ly.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Nugent of Guildofrd, L.

Sharples, B.

Lyell, L.

Onslow, E.

Skelmersdale, L.

McFadzean, L.

Orkney, E.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Spens, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Penrhyn, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Porritt, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Mancroft, L.

Radnor, E.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Margadale, L.

Redmayne, L.

Strathspey, L.

Marley, L.

Renton, L.

Tenby, V.

Meston, L.

Richardson, L.

Tranmire, L.

Middleton, L,

Ridley, V.

Trefgarne, L.

Minto, E.

Rochdale, V.

Trumpington, B.

Monk Bretton, L.

Rollo, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Morris, L.

Romney, E.

Vickers, B.

Mottistone, L.

St. Davids, V.

Vivian, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

St. Germans, E.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Moyne, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Sandford, L.

Watkinson, V.

Netherthorpe, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Westbury, L.

Newall, L.

Savile, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4.53 p.m.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY Lord WALLACE of COSLANY moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 2, line 31, after ("effect") insert ("but not before 1st January 1982").
The noble Lord said: This amendment should suit the Government, I hope—I pray almost—because it leaves their precious, rather large legislation untouched but not this particular subsection dealing with allotments. This amendment alters the date to 1st January 1982. I am willing, later on, if the Government so wish, to make it 1983. This would give the Government a reasonable and fair chance to bring in their legislation which has been talked about for so long and which conceivably could incorporate, although some of us would not agree, some of these amendments. This is fair.
I ask the Government to accept this amendment which does not mess about with their legislation. It does not mean a defeat for the Government and possibly the threat of the sack for some poor Minister or other—which goes on, I understand, every time the Government are defeated. I shall not develop that point because a certain conference is taking place this week. I think this amendment is fair and reasonable and I hope the Government will be reasonable and will accept it. I beg to move.
Earl FERRERS: The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, is remarkably conciliatory, and I appreciate that very much.
54
I thought as he was speaking that if one wanted to find somebody to sell a blind man a pair of spectacles one could find nobody better than the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, because really his whole argument is in effect "Don't bring it in now, let us bring it in in 1982".
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: Perhaps I may explain to the noble Earl that he has not quite got the point. This is hoping that the Government will seek salvation; they will bring in their legislation and say, "OK, we shall not need it in this Bill so we will take it out and we will have a new Bill". It gives them time to think. Obviously they have not had time to think over this Bill. I have not had time—I took some of my stuff away on holiday to Malta to write up and other noble Lords have suffered equally.
Earl FERRERS: If I may make a personal observation, I think the noble Lord was very misguided to do such a stupid thing on his holidays. There was no point in going on holiday; he could have sat here. I am not so dumb as the noble Lord thinks, because I realise that the purpose of his amendment is to persuade the Government to come along and produce this amending legislation, but I cannot do more than I told him before and I would correct him in regard to one thing. He said that the Government had promised to bring in amending legislation. What the Government said was that they would consider it. Of course we will consider it and we will carry on considering it.

55
The noble Lord says that in this Bill we have not got it right so we want to make sure that in the next Bill we do get it right, to the satisfaction of the noble Lord. All I can say is that we are considering this and I cannot tell the noble Lord what will be the outcome of it, but I think that it it is right to get rid of these controls, which we believe is the correct thing to do, then we might as well get rid of them now and not in 18 months' time. This is really a delaying tactic, very craftily put by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, but that is all it is and I really suggest that the Committee should not accept it.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: This is almost an attack on my character. This is not a crafty move. I am giving the Government time to sort themselves out. They have rushed into so much legislation that they have got themselves into a bit of a tangle. There is no evil intent whatever on my part and this is not a party political issue. All I am saying is, get the new legislation and in the meantime put this in suspense instead of putting
it into operation. If nobody disagrees, then take it out of suspense and put it in the dustbin. In fact I would put the whole darned Bill in the dustbin, but that is another matter and do not blame me for saying that at this stage.
Earl FERRERS: It occurs to me that if this amendment has come about as a result of the noble Lord's fortnight's holiday in Malta I hope he will be able to have a more refreshing holiday next time because I can assure him that it would be a great pity to accept this amendment and delay this alteration.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: I must explain that the work I did in Malta was on another set of more complicated amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, will be dealing with later on.
4.58 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 7) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 83; Not-Contents, 129.

CONTENTS

Amherst, E.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Mishcon, L.

Ardwick, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Oram, L.

Avebury, L.

Gardiner, L.

Pargiter, L.

Aylestone, L.

Glenamara, L.

Parry, L.

Bacon, B.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Peart, L.

Balogh, L.

Gosford, E.

Phillips, B.

Banks, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Beswick, L.

Hale, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Birk, B.

Hampton, L.

Blyton, L.

Hanworth, V.

Roberthall, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Broadbridge, L. [Teller.]

Henderson, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Brockway, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Simon, V.

Byers, L.

Ilchester, E.

Stedman, B.

Chitnis, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Janner, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Collison, L.

Jeger, B.

Stone, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Strauss, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

David, B.

Leatherland, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Underhill, L.

Delacourt-Smith of Alteryn, B.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Denington, B.

Loudoun, C.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

McCarthy, L.

Whaddon, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Maelor, L.

Wigoder, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Melville, V.

Wilson of Radcliffe, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Addison, V.

Alport, L.

Avon, E.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Ampthill, L.

Balerno, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Armstrong, L.

Bellwin, L.

Allen of Abbeydale, L.

Auckland, L.

Belstead, L.

Berkeley, B.

Gowrie, E.

Penrhyn, L.

Blake, L.

Haig, E.

Radnor, E.

Boardman, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor,)

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Bradford, E.

Redmayne, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hankey, L.

Renton, L.

Brownlow, L.

Harvington, L.

Ridley, V.

Caithness, E.

Hatherton, L.

Rochdale, V.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Henley, L.

Rollo, L.

Carrington, L. (A Principal Secretary of State.)

Hereford, V.

Romney, E.

Jeffreys, L.

Sackville, L.

Cathcart, E.

Jessell, L.

St. Davids, V.

Cockfield, L.

Kemsley, V.

St. Germans, E.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kimberley, E.

Sandford, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Kintore, E.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Cranbrook, E.

Knutsford, V.

Savile, L.

Cromartie, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Cross, V.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Sharples, B.

Daventry, V.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

de Clifford, L.

Lyell, L.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

De Freyne, L.

McAlpine of Moffat, L.

Spens, L.

De La Warr, E.

McFadzean, L.

Stamp, L.

De L'Isle, V.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Macleod of Borve, B.

Strathclyde, L.

Digby, L.

Mancroft, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Margadale, L.

Strathspey, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Marley, L.

Swinfen, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Middleton, L.

Tenby, V.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Minto, E.

Tranmire, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Morris, L.

Trenchard, V.

Enniskillen, E.

Mottistone, L.

Trumpington, B.

Exeter, M.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Faithfull, B.

Moyne, L.

Vickers, B.

Ferrers, E.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Vivian, L.

Fortescue, E.

Netherthorpe, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Newall, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Gage, V.

Northchurch, B.

Watkinson, V.

Gainford, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Westbury, L.

Gisborough, L.

Onslow, E.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Gormanston, V.

Orr-Ewing, L.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

5.8 p.m.
Baroness STEDMAN Baroness STEDMAN moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 2, line 43, at end insert—
("(7) So much of the provisions in section 1 and the First Schedule to the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946 as requires a compulsory purchase order authorising a compulsory purchase by a local authority to be submitted and confirmed by the confirming authority shall cease to have effect if no objections to the order are made by the owner, lessee or occupier or if all such objections so made are withdrawn, and any such order, instead of requiring the confirmation of the confirming authority, may be confirmed (but without any modification), as an unopposed order, by the local authority who made it.").
The noble Baroness said: I do not think this will arouse quite so much passion as allotments, but one never knows. If this amendment is accepted it will dispense with the requirement for ministerial confirmation of compulsory purchases orders that are made by local authorities
58
where there are no objectors. This was proposed in a joint document published by the local authority associations in February 1979, entitled Review of Central Government Controls over Local Authorities, and which has presumably been used as the basis for Clause 1, for some of the relaxations that are taking place.
Most of the Acts which authorise compulsory purchase of land apply the procedural code as outlined in the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946, and the compulsory acquisition by local authorities is almost universally subject to this code. We do not think there is any need for radical changes in this general form of procedure. It ensures that land is not taken without the owner's knowledge; it provides him with the opportunity to object and the right to state his case, and it obliges the authority to establish to the satisfaction of the Minister that the public need for the land outweighs the owner's wish to retain it.
We think, however, that there is one feature which could be dispensed with

59
without any real detriment to the interests of owners. This is the requirement that, even if there is no valid objection from any owner, lessee or occupier of the land, the order must still be confirmed by a Minister. Surely it would be sensible for unopposed orders to be self-confirming? Nearly half the orders submitted to the Secretary of State are believed to be unopposed, and abolishing the ministerial confirmation on those orders should considerably speed up the procedures and also reduce the cost to the advantage of both the authority and the owners concerned. I do not think that it would in any way prejudice the proper rights of those with a legal interest in the land, and the precedent already exists in respect of revocation orders in the planning field.
I am told that there has been a joint study team from the Department of the Environment and the Department of Transport on the Review of Regional Offices. That review was published only last August, and it recommended the case for abolishing the requirement for ministerial confirmation of local authority compulsory purchase orders, at least those which are not opposed. Clearly, self-confirmation of such unopposed orders would give quite substantial manpower and cost savings for central Government. I hope that the noble Earl will see fit to accept this amendment which has the support of all the local authority associations. I beg to move.
Lord SANDFORD: I should like to congratulate the noble Baroness on deploying the case as well as she has done. It is not surprising that it is a good case because it is derived from the brief to the noble Baroness from the Association of District Councils which is exactly the same brief as I have, which more or less clinches the matter. The only additional point that I should like to make—and this is one which surely would commend itself to my noble friend—is that the same proposal was put to the Secretary of State by Sir Derek Rayner and his team as part of the exercise in how to effect economies in public expenditure in central Government departments. That, I should have thought, would clinch the matter if the first argument did not do so. Anyway, I look forward very much
60
to hearing what my noble friend has to say.
Viscount RIDLEY: Before my noble friend replies, I am sure that the Association of County Councils would like to be associated with this amendment and I should like to support it too.
5.15 p.m.
Earl FERRERS: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the way in which she so succinctly deployed a very persuasive case. As my noble friend Lord Sandford has said, he was speaking from the same brief as the noble Baroness, and therefore it is not surprising that they concurred. My problem is that I have a different brief and I shall do my best to explain to your Lordships why I believe that my brief possibly has the edge on theirs, however excellent theirs may be.
Of course, within the context of the Bill's very substantial relaxations as regards local authorities, this amendment does identify what appears to be a further suitable candidate for relaxation and therefore all our natural sympathies would be with it. It can, after all, be argued that if nobody objects to an order there is no need for ministerial confirmation. But, of course, most people regard the use of compulsory acquisition powers as a fairly draconian step for a public authority to take and in a very different light from that in which they view the other kinds of orders which local authorities make.
Under the present law people, and especially those who are affected by a compulsory purchase order—whether or not they object to it—are assured of an objective and impartial assessment of the reasons which a local authority may advance for taking land. That assurance derives from the fact that the order must be confirmed by a Minister who, in addition to being impartial in the particular case, is also answerable to Parliament. It puts upon local authorities, if one can so put it, a sharper cutting edge. For authorities to be given the power to confirm orders which are not opposed—and that would, of course, include the power to decide whether the objections which have been received have been properly made—would be a very significant step and would arouse all kinds of suspicions and fears.

61
For those reasons I think that it would be inadvisable to accept this amendment, particularly without further consultation and without serious consideration of the question whether the administrative advantages would be outweighed by the loss of protection to the individual. I shall, however, certainly ensure that the proposition on which the amendment is based is carefully considered, and if the results of that examination are favourable changes could be introduced at a later date, when a suitable legislative opportunity arose. But I feel sure that both the noble Baroness and my noble friend would realise that this is a fairly substantial step which at present, from the point of view of protecting the individual, we feel it would be better not to take.
Baroness STEDMAN: I accept that this is a fairly substantial step to take and I accept that compulsory purchase orders are not very popular. But if the compulsory purchase order is not objected to, if there are no objections at all, why is it necessary to waste ministerial time and to waste staff in going into it with all the costs involved at present? If the noble Earl will say that he will take the matter back, look at it, talk to his advisers and perhaps consult with us before the next stage of the Bill to see whether it is possible to include it in the present Bill, then I think that perhaps we and the associations might be a little happier about it. But to leave it rather in the air and to say that when there is a proper legislative timetable we might do something about it, is really not very much of a promise.
Earl FERRERS: The answer to the noble Baroness is that very often orders can be made when people do not realise that they will be affected. When a local authority knows that if it makes an order it must have the approval of the Minister—even though 50 per cent. of such orders may be unopposed—that makes the local authority certain that what it is doing is correct and proper and will have the scrutiny of the Minister. It also means that those people who may be affected, but who do not know that they may be affected, will know that it will have the scrutiny of the Minister. One can foresee problems whereby local authorities could make orders and if they knew that they would not have the scrutiny of the Minister they may possibly find it a little
62
too easy to make such orders. People could find that certain purchases were made which affected them, but which they had not realised would affect them.
That is the reason why we think that it would be wrong to accept the amendment. Certainly I shall take it back and look at it again. I should be delighted to have discussion with the noble Baroness, and my noble friend as well, if they would like it. But I am bound to say that I think that at present it would be a fairly large step to take and we feel that it would be inappropriate. However, if the noble Baroness wishes to speak to me about it, she can, by all means, do so.
Lord PARGITER: Will the noble Earl explain a little further? If there are no objections at all and the order comes to the Minister for confirmation, how will the Minister find out that there might be some people around who might be affected by the order, without going for a public inquiry or something of that kind? If he is to have any grounds for including people who have not objected in the first case, but who might object if it comes to the Minister, how does the Minister find out?
Earl FERRERS: The Minister is, of course, an unaffected third party who can see the position dispassionately. The local authority is, of course, an interested party, and that is the reason why it is desirable to have somebody who is totally disconnected with the matter.
Lord SANDFORD: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Pargiter, is on fairly strong ground. These compulsory purchase orders are not made just like "that". They are made under the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946, and the code regarding the amount of advertising, notification, the intervals of time that must elapse and so on, is all fairly specifically laid down. The right way to deal with the point which my noble friend is making about the danger of orders being slipped through unobtrusively when no one is watching, is best taken care of by looking at that legislation and seeing whether it is firm and watertight—not by requiring orders to be submitted to the Minister if there are no objections. I am most grateful to my noble friend

63
and I hope that he really will have the matter looked at before the next stage.
Baroness STEDMAN: Like the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, I am not completely happy with the Minister's explanation and I cannot quite see the point behind it. I shall certainly read what he said in Hansard. If he will take the matter back and perhaps have some discussions with us before the next stage, then we shall see whether we should come back at the next stage and perhaps press it.
Earl FERRERS: By all means; I am quite happy to do that.
Baroness STEDMAN: In that case I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.20 p.m.
Viscount RIDLEY Viscount RIDLEY moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 2, line 43, at end insert—
("(7) The amendments specified in Schedule (Highways) to this Act shall have effect for the purpose of limiting the powers of Ministers to supervise local authorities in the discharge of their functions relating to highways and road traffic matters.").
The noble Viscount said: In moving this amendment I should like to speak also to Amendment Nos. 16A in the Supplementary List and Amendments Nos.314A and 314B. I apologise at once for the enormous length of this amendment which, as some of my noble friends have said, is possibly due to a desire that I have to get into the Guiness Book of Records by moving the longest amendment ever moved in this House. Unfortunately that is not the case and I doubt whether I should achieve it anyway.
The amendment deals with a great many detailed controls in the field of highways and traffic. We are putting it forward today because it was agreed by the Government and it appeared in the original Bill which came before your Lordships last year, which noble Lords will remember vanished like the Cheshire Cat and went to another place just before Christmas. The Bill is now before us having been sent from another place, and
64
it does not include any of the amendments suggested in Amendment No. 16A, which I seriously suggest to the Government will reduce a great deal of very unnecessary and trivial bureaucracy at both local and central levels.
I am certain that noble Lords will not wish me to go through this enormous Schedule at great length. Certainly I am unable to explain a great deal of it, and I have no idea what Section 7 of the Locomotives Act 1898 actually says, or whatever it is. However, this is a genuine effort by local government to meet the Government's stated objectives: to relax controls over local affairs where they are unnecessary, and to cut out unnecessary bureaucracy, paperwork and so forth. This could make quite a significant contribution to a reduction in public expenditure over the years, and will not remove any essential safeguard in the field of traffic and highways. Accordingly, I beg to move Amendment No. 9.
Earl FERRERS: I would find it very difficult—indeed rather disagreeable—to disagree with my noble friend Lord Ridley in this fairly substantial amendment which he has put forward, because it has the effect of restoring parts of the No. 1 Bill which originally started in your Lordships' House. The proposed schedule would implement some of the proposals in the Government's White Paper which was published in September last year, and it would reduce bureaucracy and extend local authority discretion.
I am grateful to my noble friend for taking into account not only the White Paper proposals but also some of the proposals which my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport had agreed after considering the representations which were made in response to the White Paper. Because of the pressure of time we had intended to bring these matters forward not in this Bill but in a later Bill. They have been the subject of wide consultation. They are uncontroversial and I accept that they will relieve local authorities of burdens, inconvenience and limitations which they would like to see the back of sooner rather than later. I would be happy to accept the amendment.
Viscount RIDLEY: I am deeply grateful to my noble friend.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Provisions to which section 1(1) refers]:
5.24 p.m.
Viscount RIDLEY Viscount RIDLEY moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 132, line 3, at end insert—
("Fire Services Act 1947 (c. 41)
. Section 2(2), (3), (5) and (9) (arrangements for mutual assistance).
. Section 5 (voluntary schemes for combination of fire authorities).
. Section 6 (powers to make combination schemes).
. Section 7 (appointment of joint committees by fire authorities).
. Section 8 (constitution and powers of fire authorities constituted by combination schemes).
. Section 9 (amendment and revocation of combination schemes).
. Section 12(2), (3), (4) and (5) (discharge of functions of fire authorities through other fire authorities or persons).
. Section 17 (conditions of service).
. Section 18 (procedure and qualifications for appointments and promotions).
. Section 19 (fire brigade establishments to be determined in accordance with approved schemes).
. Section 21 (standards of training and equipment).").
The noble Viscount said: In this amendment I return to the Home Office. As we have heard, the relaxation of controls by the Home Office is not so easy as it has been in the case of highways. I am talking here—and I deal not only with Amendment No. 10 but with Amendment No. 308—of the relaxation of controls over the fire service.
The fire service is basically controlled by the 1947 Act of that name, which gave much detailed control to the Home Secretary and which I submit is now out of date in some respects. Before I go any further I should perhaps stress that the standards of fire cover, about which we should all rightly be concerned and which have been promulgated by the Home Office, are at present advisory only—something which is not I think generally realised—although they are of course broadly accepted throughout the fire service. They are not statutory in nature and do not rely upon any of the provisions
66
outlined in the amendment to which I am speaking and which I suggest is suitable for repeal. Therefore, we are not in any sense affecting the possible fire cover which may be supplied in the future. The standards are, of course, also under review by the Government in a current discussion on Future Fire Policy.
I should like to spend a little time—and I hope that it will not take as long as the time we spent discussing the allotments—going quickly through some of the details. First, I deal with the repeal of Section 2(2), (3), (5) and (9) of the Fire Services Act 1947, which deal with the arrangements under which local fire brigades provide cover across their boundaries to their neighbours. Of course, that is always done and is very well established, and no doubt will continue to be done. There is no suggestion that this duty should be altered, but only that the Home Secretary's powers to control such arrangements are unnecessary and could be removed.
Next we come to Sections 5, 7, 8 and 9 and Section 12(2), (3), (4) and (5) of the Fire Services Act. This is where the fire authorities can enter voluntarily into schemes for the combination of fire authorities or for the appointment of joint committees. We believe that this part of the Act could safely be repealed as well. The Home Secretary has powers to compel such arrangements in certain circumstances and I understand that under Sections 101 and Sections 111 of the Local Government Act 1972 there is nothing to stop him from doing this. Therefore, it seems unnecessary to keep these controls as well.
The more contentious and difficult matter is Section 17 of the Fire Services Act, which discusses disciplinary arrangements in the fire service. Since the passing of that Act there have been substantial developments in the legal relationships between employers and employees. Therefore, a position has now arisen where the fire service employees are subject not only to a statutory disciplinary code, probably uniquely in the country, but have the advantage also of rights under the Employment Protection Act. At a practical level, this could result in two distinct rights of appeal, one to the Home Secretary and the other to an industrial tribunal. This could

67
result in the industrial tribunal overruling the decision of the Home Secretary. I am sure that he would not welcome that.
The Government appear to accept that firemen are not a sufficiently special case as employees; that they should, for example, be exempt from the Health and Safety at Work Act. It is therefore anomalous that they should be subject both to the general law and to special disciplinary regulations, which is not the case of course for the police or the armed services. The power of the Home Secretary to legislate for firemen's other conditions of service was repealed in 1959, and it is now suggested that his power to make disciplinary regulations should also be repealed.
The next matter is Section 18 of the 1947 Act, and here we have the question of the appointments and promotions, and the appointment of chief fire officers. It is a pity that, although the Government intended to remove controls over this matter, they have not yet done so. Indeed, such regulations are, I understand, likely to be strengthened. I think that the ACC, which is concerned in this matter, feels that the control over appointments and promotions by means of statutory instrument should be dispensed with entirely, and it is assumed that guidance could continue to be issued by the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council.
We come next to Section 19, which is the matter of the fire brigade establishments. This, of course, is perhaps one of the most important parts of the amendment. Section 19 of the 1947 Act provides for the approval, by the Secretary of State, of any scheme for each fire authority governing the numbers of firemen, pumping appliances and fire stations, and so forth. Any of these can, of course, be increased by a fire authority, but they cannot be reduced without the approval of the Secretary of State. In the times in which we find ourselves, when local authorities are making genuine efforts to reduce expenditure and to streamline the services at the request of the present Government—with some success in some cases—this degree of control is not appropriate for local government services at this time. It could very much hamper
68
the efficient management of local authority fire brigades, and any attempt to make brigades more efficient by the closure of stations, the reduction of appliances or even the numbers of firemen should not necessarily require approval.
As I have already said, there are standards of fire cover which are advisory and which are generally accepted, and which no doubt will continue. The requirement, particularly when central Governments are seeking such a reduction, is something with which we could easily dispense.
Finally, Section 21 of the Fire Services Act deals with the standards of training and equipment. The Home Office issues advice on these matters following consultation with all interested parties in the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council. It is considered inappropriate that such matters need to be dealt with by statutory instrument in the absence of any evidence whatever that the fire service is being damaged by widespread disregard of Home Office advice. I move this amendment in the spirit of the title to this part of the Bill, the relaxation of controls over local government. I do not believe that it would do any harm to the fire service and could do considerable good to the autonomy of the local authorities responsible, and I hope that the Government will be able to accept, if not the whole of it, a great deal of it. I beg to move Amendment No. 10.
5.31 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL: I am not at all happy with the full details of this amendment. I speak on this not only as an ordinary citizen. For five years during the war I served in the fire service, and although that is 35 years ago I believe that some of the points that arose then are pertinent to this amendment. I was one of those who welcomed the introduction of the National Fire Service. It introduced better training, standardisation, mobilisation, and I was heartily in favour of its introduction. Much as I would like to see as much abolition of bureaucracy from our administration and domination by central Government as possible, this is an issue in which we are looking at fire risk, fire hazards, and the protection of the lives of people.

69
The noble Viscount referred to the arrangements for mutual assistance. Surely this is an important matter, because although the establishment of one local fire authority may be satisfactory, the establishment may be such that it weakens the possibility of giving mutual assistance to an area in which there is considerable fire risk. It would appear to me that the Secretary of State must have some overall powers. There may be some case for relaxing Sections 5 to 9 concerning combination schemes, but surely the Secretary of State here also must see that these do not weaken fire cover. Therefore, he has an interest which must be carried through.
Section 12 proposes lifting the Minister's powers to ensure that the discharge of functions through other bodies is satisfactory. There could be false economy by a fire authority using, say, industrial fire services attached to works for general fire cover. It may be that that may be advisable in some areas but it may be that it would considerably weaken the fire cover and the protection of our people, or there may be further development of part-time forces. I shall come to that later.
In moving this amendment it was stated that the conditions of service laid down in the 1947 Act had been suspended by an Act of 1959. When we come later to deal with further points on this I should like to know whether this covers all the points laid down in the 1947 Act, which I understand deal with ranks, pay and allowances, hours of duty and leave, as well as the maintenance of discipline and appeals. I should like to know whether the 1959 Act has dealt with all those points.
Section 19 deals with the necessity for fire brigade establishments to be approved by the Secretary of State, and it is suggested that this should be taken away. I consider it essential that this power should remain. There must be an assurance that there is adequate fire cover for any area which can not only deal with the fire cover in that local fire service area but also give reinforcement assistance to other areas. We know that there has been agitation in some fire authority areas for weakening the establishment and taking on far more part-timers. It may be that that is not only of concern
70
because it weakens the fire cover in that area; it may have a prejudicial effect on mobilisation in the event of a big fire over that authority area.
The 1947 Act provides that the Secretary of State shall make regulations prescribing standards of efficiency and training. I know what happened when the National Fire Service took over the old fire authorities and the improvement there was in training and efficiency all round. He was to make regulation also for the design and performance of equipment. We must keep in mind that in recent years there has been a number of appalling fires. Therefore, we are not just dealing with a simple question of relaxation of controls. If the Committee is to agree to this we must be satisfied that we in no way weaken fire cover or put people at risk in our areas.
The oversight of the Secretary of State could, I hope, include not only the number and type of appliances which should go to the various types of incident, because there are different incidents which require different types of pumps and different types of other auxilliary appliances, but also the number of firemen who should ride on the appliances. It should also cover whether or not in a particular area or combination of areas there are adequate turntable ladders, adequate chemical decontamination units, emergency units, and so on. I would urge that this question be given far more serious consideration to ensure that standards of efficiency are not reduced, and that there will not be a move in any area of an economy nature, without the Secretary of State having any power to interfere, which could increase fire danger and fire risk.
Lord GISBOROUGH: I should like to support this amendment in principle. It is probably true that on the formation of the National Fire Service there was a great increase in efficiency over the prewar system, but for 30 years since the reversion of the National Fire Service to local authority control the local fire authorities have responsibly exercised their duties under the 1947 Act. Many of the Home Secretary's controls, many of which have never been exercised, appear still to remain after this Bill, and it is highly questionable whether this continued control is necessary.

71
Advice has been very detailed on occasion. For example, there has been the case of the three separate Home Office circulars advising fire authorities on how to stitch the collars of their uniforms. If the Home Office have time to send out this sort of circular in triplicate it looks as though they have far too many people looking for something to do. I am sorry that the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, has put all this down in one single amendment because I think that some parts would be acceptable whereas other parts might not. I hope that the Government will give consideration to, if not the whole of the amendment, at least parts of it.
Viscount SIMON: I find myself in great agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said but I was rather surprised that he broke off when he did. It seems to me that the most essential one of all is Section 21. If there is to be effective co-operation between neighbouring fire brigades it is surely essential that there should be a common standard of training and of equipment. If you do not do that there is a great danger that cooperation will not be effective. I should have thought that there is a strong case for retaining the powers of the Secretary of State to impose common standards of training and common standards of equipment.
5.39 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD: Taken as a whole these two amendments to which my noble friend Lord Ridley has spoken propose a fundamental change to the Fire Services Act 1947, which has been the basis of the organisation of fire brigades since the 1939–45 war. If the changes proposed in the two amendments were made they would remove all the powers which the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland have possessed in relation to the fire authorities since the days of the National Fire Service, about which the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, spoke.
May I look at these amendments in a little more detail. Three of the changes suggested in Amendment No. 10 have been the subject of discussions between my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and the local authority as-
72
sociations for some time. They are the repeal of Section 17, of Section 18, and of Section 19 of the 1947 Act; those sections dealing with discipline regulations, appointments and promotions, and establishments of fire brigades. If this amendment were made the present regulations on discipline and on appointments and promotions would cease to have effect. May I just make it clear, because I did not think my noble friend was quite clear on that point, that as the White Paper on Local Authority Controls, Command 7634, made clear, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is relinquishing his control of approval for the appointment of chief fire officers.
I think it is fair for me to say that the local authority associations are aware already of the view of the Home Office that we do not accept these proposals in their entirety. Many of your Lordships have said that they wish these proposals had been put forward individually, but I quite understand why my noble friend has put them forward en bloc. The objections of my right honourable friend rest on the fact that the fire service is a partnership. It is under local authority control but it is national in character in that, because of the work that the service has to perform and its contribution to public safety, the maintenance of common and acceptable standards is particularly important. I do not think it is really quite enough to say that the fire authorities would themselves maintain a national code of discipline and common entrance and promotion requirements. Because of the special place of the fire service, by reason of the nature of its work, these are matters in which national Government have a responsibility.
As to the size of fire brigades—their establishments—I listened very closely to what my noble friend Viscount Ridley said, but I did not feel that a case was made out to the effect that fire authorities are unreasonably restrained by the requirement to obtain approval for reductions in establishments. Indeed, I must say that as I listened to my noble friend I wondered whether fire authorities may not have overlooked the advantage to them of the present procedures. When fire authorities are faced with the need to make reductions, but also with understandable concern about the objections

73
to those reductions, they can point to the fact that their own judgment has to be examined and confirmed by the Home Secretary, who is, of course, assisted by the professional advice of Her Majesty's Inspector of Fire Services.
Regarding the other changes suggested in the amendments, that is to say, the changes which are not to be found in Sections 17, 18 and 19 of the 1947 Act—changes which, incidentally, the local authority associations themselves have described as minor—I think I ought to say to your Lordships that these have been put to the Home Secretary, but only very recently; in fact, it was less than a month ago. Within my right honourable friend's department we have not yet fully assessed the validity of the case for doing away with them. Those controls which I am talking about now are not onerous in their effects but I think they are reasonable reserve powers. We will certainly look at each of them more closely, but so far as this Bill is concerned I do not think that this evening I could possibly accept the changes proposed. I should like to give just one example of why I am being so hesitant here in this lot of sections. For instance, my noble friend mentioned Section 101 of the Local Government Act, which enables functions of one local authority to be discharged by another local authority. That is not quite the same thing as forming a true combined fire authority, and it is matters of this kind which need to be looked at with some care.
In ending the reply which I am trying to give may I go back to the question of partnership. I really do believe that the Fire Service Acts provide a partnership between the fire authorities and Government. I also believe that the amendment would alter, and indeed could destroy, that balance. I am sure that that is the last thing which is the objective of my noble friend, and I have no doubt that the representatives of fire service organisations would deplore the effects of the amendment if it were made. Through the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council, which is constituted under Section 29 of the 1947 Act, a working relationship is at present achieved between fire authorities, the Secretary of State and the staff interests, and is because of the harmony which is achieved in that body that some of the powers challenged
74
in the amendments do not need to be used at all.
Incidentally, it is because the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council exists that advice of a very detailed nature can be given to fire brigades. This was criticised by my noble friend Lord Gisborough as being evidence of too many people working in the Home Office. My noble friend is under a misapprehension there. The detailed advice which comes from the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council is as a result of the three partners in the council getting together and deciding what is best for uniforms, for operations, for training or for something like that and then sending out that advice to individual fire brigades.
I do seriously say that I think it is not to be expected that the Central Fire Brigade Advisory Council, in which, as I say, there are the local authorities, the fire brigades organisations and also the Government, would continue to fulfil its present harmonious role of a working relationship if the background against which the council operates would be that the Secretary of State had virtually given up all his powers in relation to the fire service. It is for those reasons that I ask my noble friend to think again about pressing this amendment. We will certainly continue to give consideration to the points which have been put to us by the local authority associations, but I think this amendment goes too far and too fast.
Viscount RIDLEY: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Can I comment briefly on what the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said? I do not think he quite realised what an extremely efficient and skilled fire service we have, what tremendous improvements there have been since the 1947 Act came into operation and how much more sophisticated fire engines, for example, are than they were in those days. This is obvious when one thinks about it. I refuse to call them appliances because to me a fire engine is a fire engine and should be called such and not called an appliance.
Nor did the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, appear to trust local government to do what Parliament requires of it. Throughout his speech there was a definite line of not trusting the local authorities. I

75
hope that will not be repeated too often in the nights in front of us. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Belstead for his careful reply and careful consideration of the issues which I have raised. On the basis of the fact that some of this is still being discussed and in the hope that the points I have made have been taken by the Home Office, I have pleasure in withdrawing this amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.48 p.m.
Viscount RIDLEY Viscount RIDLEY moved Amendment No. 10A:
Page 132, line 14, at end insert—
(". Section 131 (incorporation of default provisions of Public Health Act 1936)").
The noble Viscount said: I apologise to the Committee for this terrible monopolisation by myself, which luckily is about to come to an end. This is an extremely small and rather detailed technical amendment. With it I should like to take Amendment No. 308A. This is to do with the Public Health Act 1936. The reason for this is that there are provisions for local inquiries by the Minister in relation to the functions of local authorities which would otherwise he retained in the Food and Drugs Act 1955, whereas in other areas of trading standards legislation the departments concerned have proposed to repeal such provisions. We believe that there is no good reason for this distinction and argue that the inquiry provisions of the Food and Drugs Act should be repealed. I beg to move Amendment No. 10A.
Earl FERRERS: If this amendment were accepted it would remove the default powers from Ministers under the Food and Drugs Act. It is the objective of the Government to lessen ministerial control over local authorities but it is not the intention of the Government in this Bill to remove or repeal the default powers of the Minister. Amendment No. 4, which your Lordships considered earlier and which was accepted, makes it clear in Clause 1 that what is being repealed in Schedule 1 is the power to give local authorities general directions and the power to require local authorities to make certain byelaws. The amendment
76
to Clause 1 specifically removes the repeal of default powers, and having deliberately excluded that in Clause 1, it would not be appropriate to insert it again in Schedule 1.
Viscount RIDLEY: The amendment is of no great consequence and I therefore beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Earl FERRERS Earl FERRERS moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 132, line 22, before ("(requirement") insert ("(1)").
The noble Earl said: This is almost a drafting amendment. It makes the relaxation of control concerned more specific in order to avoid a possible ambiguity concerning byelaws. It is complementary to Amendment No. 2 which your Lordships accepted earlier. I beg to move.
[Amendment No. 12 not moved.]
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Relaxation of controls over functionsrelating to clean air and pollution]:
Lord MOTTISTONE Lord MOTTISTONE moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 132, line 28, leave out paragraph 1 and insert—
("1. Section 4 (regulations about density meters) shall cease to have effect.").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to retain the Secretary of State's power under Section 6(3) of the Clean Air Act 1956 to consider applications for approval of plant for arresting grit and dust. A similar amendment was proposed in another place but it is not clear from the Official Report why it was rejected. It would be very rare for the Secretary of State to be called on to exercise this power and the very fact of non-usage may be put forward as a reason for its removal. However, its very existence has in the past encouraged differences of technical opinion between industry and local authorities to be resolved without recourse to the Minister. In future it would be valuable, not only as an inducement to good industry and local authority relations but also where agreement cannot be reached, to allow impartial advice to be

77
given in relation to technically sophisticated equipment. As new technologies are introduced, the ability of local authorities to judge the suitability of arrestment equipment may not always be accurate.
Probably grit and dust are thought of by your Lordships, and indeed by local authorities, as being so simple as not to require over-riding power from the Secretary of State. But I think the Committee will also recognise that as we progress and more and more technical equipment comes in to do what have hitherto been quite simple tasks, technicalities can overwhelm us in an area which we have always thought was quite simple. It is with that in mind that the amendment has been tabled; namely, so that the problems of grit and dust arrestation, as it is called, or arrestment, can be dealt with on a basis which allows proper technical consideration to be brought to bear on those occasions when that is necessary. I beg to move.
Lord SANDFORD: It seems that every amendment so far has required one to get into a different alliance; on this occasion I wish to encourage my noble friend to resist this amendment from the CBI. I say that because I think it can be fairly claimed that the pursuit of smoke control—and, after all, that is what we are talking about—by local authorities under the Clean Air Act 1956 has been one of their signal achievements, not an achievement by local authorities on their own but by local authorities and industry in concert, proceeding by the well-known British practice of achieving the best practical reduction of smoke at the least possible cost. For that to be done and to be sustained, the important thing to concentrate on is the partnership between local government and local industry, and all over the country there are partnerships of various kinds set up to deal with the various forms of pollution that occur.
Some forms of air pollution are so complex and the methods of dealing with them involve so much high technology and occur relatively rarely throughout the country that it is appropriate for the Government, in the guise of what was known as the Alkali Inspectorate, now part of the Health and Safety Executive,
78
to be the body with which industry has to deal. But in this field of smoke control—and I fully agree that the technology for arresting smoke, dirt and grit is, and will become more, complicated—it is important for the expertise to reside in the hands of local industry and local government and not with central Government. My submission is that that relationship is served best if the division of responsibility between central and local government in this matter is clarified in the way the Government propose, and I urge my noble friend Lord Mottistone to put his trust in this case in local government.
Earl FERRERS: I agree with my noble friend Lord Mottistone that grit, dust and arrestment are very complicated parts of the Bill, and I confess that most of us were not familiar with them until we came across the Bill. I am glad that, as my noble friend Lord Sandford moves round in a sort of Paul Jones on these amendments, he should find himself on this occasion allied with me. I assure him that is a good stance for him to be in and I suggest he repeats it throughout the remainder of the Bill.
The power with which the amendment is concerned has never been used—the Secretary of State has had this power for 25 years and has not used it—which suggests an argument for repealing it; and I am sure that that is an argument which my noble friend Lord Mottistone envisaged. I am sure that the objectives which my noble friend seeks will be adequately attained by the retention of the right of appeal to the Minister, and that right is not affected by the Bill, and thus anybody so affected will still retain a right of appeal to the Minister. I concede that this is not a great point. If the powers were retained, there would be no extra cost to the Government; but as they have not been used for 25 years—the whole of the time the Secretary of State has had those powers—and as it is part of the Government's philosophy to remove unnecessary powers from central Government, and as that is what the local authorities wish for, it seems on balance that it would be better for these powers to be removed in view of the assurance I have given that the right of appeal to the Minister will still be retained.
Lord MOTTISTONE: The fact that powers have not been used for 25 years may not mean that they have not been of value; for the reasons I advanced, it may well be that the fact they are there has made people reach agreement which they otherwise might not have reached. However, this is not a vital point. It is useful to have been reminded by my noble friend that the right of appeal still remains and, with that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6 p.m.
Lord MOTTISTONE Lord MOTTISTONE moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 135, line 5, at end insert—
("( ) In section 13(3) omit "the kind or number of the receptacles required by" and insert "any requirement specified in".").
The noble Lord said: The substitution of Section 13(7) of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 by what is now proposed in paragraph 10 of the schedule broadens the power of collection authorities in respect of household and, where applicable, commercial waste to make requirements by notice concerning not only the provision of receptacles but also other matters including the substances which may or may not be placed in them.
The purpose of this amendment is to widen the grounds of appeal provided by Section 13(3) of the 1974 Act but which currently applies solely to notices concerning household waste so that both domestic and commercial occupiers may contest any requirements specified by the authority. I understand that in another place the Government indicated that they were willing to accept an amendment of this sort, but they do not seem to have done so. I beg to move.
EARL FERRERS: Paragraph 10 of Schedule 2 relaxes the Secretary of State's regulation-making powers in connection with the condition and the use of receptacles for controlled waste. Instead the collection authorities will be able to serve a notice requiring the occupiers of premises to take action in respect of any of the matters that were to have been covered by those regulations. I do not anticipate that there will be many, or indeed any, unreasonable requirements imposed by collection authorities when they serve notices. But I fully accept that the occupier's right
80
of appeal against unreasonable requirements should be protected and that is only natural justice.
I welcome my noble friend's amendment and commend it to the Committee. I would only add that in welcoming it I am bound to tell him that at the moment it is absolutely unworkable as drafted. But we shall be putting down some Government amendments in addition to make sure that at the Report stage it will be workable. I am grateful to my noble friend for putting down this amendment.
Lord SANDFORD: Before my noble friend behind me accepts that welcome development, I should like to say on behalf of the Association of District Councils that we should of course like to see not only this amendment, which apparently does not work, but the Government's which I hope will. I must reserve my position until we have had discussions on this.
Lord MOTTISTONE: I feel that with the ready acceptance by the Government of the principle behind my amendment and the fact that the Government have undertaken themselves to put down an amendment which I trust will appeal to my noble friend Lord Sandford as well, with pleasure I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl FERRERS: With the greatest respect to my noble friend, I had hoped he would not be too quick in withdrawing his amendment because I have just said I accepted it. What I said was that in addition to that we would put down some other amendments to make the totality workable. I would merely chide my noble friend Lord Sandford in this respect: he said he was speaking on behalf of the Association of District Councils. I would remind him that of course he speaks entirely for himself and that not even the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, speaks on behalf of anybody, even though he may have a brief for the Association of District Councils.
Lord MOTTISTONE: I do beg your Lordships' pardon for having misunderstood the intentions of my noble friend the Minister. I certainly do not wish to withdraw my amendment.
6.4 p.m.
Lord SANDFORD Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 14A:
Page 135, leave out lines 37 and 38.
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 14A. While welcoming the general run of the amendments in this schedule, I should like to suggest through the amendment that it is failing to take an opportunity to reduce bureaucracy still further in requiring that district councils should have to consult the highway authority in any arrangements they make about putting dustbins on kerbs. After all, that is what all this is about. Making clear the power of the district councils to speed up, facilitate and make less expensive their refuse collection by requiring dustbins to be placed on kerbs outside premises is obviously a sensible step. It could be made much more sensible if they did not at the same time have to notify highway authorities of what they were doing. I am sure it could be left to their good sense to ensure that traffic was not unnecessarily impeded in this way. In fact, traffic is greatly facilitated if the dustcarts can move more quickly. I beg to move Amendment No. 14A.
Earl FERRERS: We have moved with astonishing rapidity from grit arrestment to dustbin control. I welcome my noble friend's general thesis of trying to reduce bureaucracy, but this amendment would remove the duty on a collection authority to consult and secure the consent of the highway authority to its intention to serve a notice under Section 13 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 requiring the placing of a receptacle on the public highway.
I really cannot think there would be many instances where the placing of a dustbin in a suitable place for collection would be open to serious objection on road traffic grounds. But this is a case where the functions of two sorts of authorities overlap and the collection authority may wish to have a bin placed perhaps on the carriageway itself when, for instance, there is no pavement. This will affect the duties of the highway authority and it seems to me to be only sensible that its consent should be obtained in these kinds of cases. It will not place an onerous burden on the authorities, and I do not believe it represents an unreasonable or
82
unnecessary fetter on the discretion of collection authorities to provide what they consider to be the most efficient service for their circumstances.
As the functions of the authorities overlap, I should have thought that they ought both to be involved. I am sure that they will devise suitable arrangements which will keep paperwork to a minimum for securing the consents which are necessary. For these reasons I hope that my noble friend will feel able not to press his amendment.
Lord AVEBURY: If I may intervene, before the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, deals with that reply, may I ask the Minister whether he does not consider that local authorities do a great many things as a matter of common sense which they are not obliged to do by statute? It would be quite a simple matter for the refuse disposal officer in the district authority simply to get to the telephone and talk to the person in charge of highways to make sure that whatever he proposes does not create a traffic hazard. This would occur in the normal course of events, whether he was obliged to do it or not. So why must we have a power in the statute compelling him to enter into those consultations and to obtain the formal approval of someone in the highways authority for him to do something which he is going to do anyway?
Earl FERRERS: It is perfectly true that he can pick up the telephone, and no doubt he will do so. The only purpose of this is to say that where there is a conflict of interest between two local authorities it would be right that they should be consulted. That is all this seeks to do.
Lord SANDFORD: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his help on this matter. I am sorry that my noble friend is not willing to assist me a little more in reducing bureaucracy, particularly as we could have got it through while my noble friend Lord Ridley was out of the Chamber, but there it is. I shall think about what the noble Earl has had to say and see whether I feel strongly enough about it to move any further amendments, but I rather doubt it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.9 p.m.
Lord SANDFORD Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 14B:
Page 135, line 45, at end insert—
("(3) Until such time as section 13(7) comes into force, a local authority undertaking the removal of house refuse under section 72 of the Public Health Act 1936 may by a notice served on the occupier of premises require him to place receptacles used for the receipt of such refuse on highways to facilitate the emptying of them and access to them for that purpose and the provisions of subsections (7A) and (7C) above shall apply in respect of any such notice.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 14B, which is a matter of rather more substance. As the Committee will know, we have had the Control of Pollution Act on the statute book for some five or six years. However, a number of sections of the Bill—Sections 12 to 14, in fact—have not yet been implemented, though it was planned to implement them in the Mark I version of this Bill. Now, because of the extreme importance of curbing and limiting public expenditure, this seems likely to be further delayed; some of the implications of introducing Sections 12 to 14 would involve further public expenditure.
Sandwiched between those sections is Section 13(7), which is the part of the Control of Pollution Act that gives the local authorities proper powers to deal with the removal of refuse from domestic premises by means of kerbside collections—dustbins on the kerbs. This, far from causing any further public expenditure, will make it possible for a number of authorities to reduce public expenditure while maintaining the same service, and, as I have just said in connection with a previous amendment, it will also probably make a contribution towards traffic movement.
I hope that my noble friend will be able to see that there would be nothing lost by allowing this particular section of the Control of Pollution Act—namely, Section 13(7)—to come into force in advance of the other sections of the Act, which must be further deferred because of the need to contain public expenditure. I beg to move.
Earl FERRERS: Under Section 72 of the Public Health Act 1936 a local authority can make bye-laws enabling the authority to serve a notice requiring the occupier of premises to place his house
84
refuse for collection at a point on the premises which can be conveniently reached from the street which is used for access by the collectors. This amendment seeks to enable a local authority to serve a notice requiring the occupier to place his dustbin at a point outside his premises and on the highway.
While I understand the reasoning behind the amendment, I am bound to say that I could not advise the Committee to accept it because it is defective in two respects. First, it is proposed that the amendment will lapse once Section 13(7) of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 comes into force. In fact, of course, Section 13(7) was implemented from 1st August 1978. Secondly, the proposed amendment is unsatisfactory because there is no provision for appeal, nor for obtaining the consent of the highway authority. For those reasons I am afraid that I would not find it possible to accept my noble friend's amendment.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL: Before the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, replies, may I make an appeal to him to consider quite seriously those local authorities now using plastic sack disposal units in their areas. For some people there is quite a burden when it comes to lifting the plastic sack out of the bin in order to place it on the pavement. This is a considerable task for the elderly or for those households without male members. Problems arise with the plastic sacks once they are placed on the highway. Dogs or children may scatter the contents of the sacks around the roads before the refuse collectors arrive on the scene. So I believe that the matter is not quite so simple as the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, makes out, and I support the Minister in the observations that he has made on this particular proposal.
Lord SANDFORD: I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, that this is not a simple matter. However, fortunately it is not for the Committee of this House to work out in detail how each local authority should collect its refuse. Our concern is, I believe, to ensure that the local authorities have open to them as many options as possible in deciding which method is appropriate in each particular case, and that is what my amendment sought to do.

85
However, in view of what my noble friend has said, I shall withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedules 3 and 4 agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Allotments]:
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY Lord WALLACE of COSLANY had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 15:
Page 142, line 22, leave out paragraph 2.
The noble Lord said: In view of the votes that we have had, and in view of the fact that I have in my mind for the Report stage some further amendments to this schedule, I do not propose to move this amendment.
[Amendment No. 15 not moved.]
Schedule 5 agreed to.
Schedule 6 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
6.17 p.m.
Viscount AMORY Viscount AMORY moved Amendment No. 16A:
After Schedule 6, insert the following new Schedule
("HIGHWAYS
Relaxation of Ministerial controls over the provision of ferries 1949 c. 97
1.—(1) So much of section 53 of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 (ferries for purposes of long-distance routes)—

(a) as makes the exercise of a highway authority's powers subject to the approval of any Minister; or

(b) as confers upon any Minister any power to give a local highway authority directions.

shall cease to have effect.
(2) The following subsection shall be substituted for section 26(3) of the Highways Act 1959 (provision and maintenance of new road-ferries):—
"(3) The Minister or a local highway authority may provide and maintain new road-ferries."
Relaxation of Ministerial controls in respect of footpaths and bridleways 1959 c. 25
2.—(1) The following subsection shall be substituted for section 29(3) of the Highways Act 1959 (which gives the Secretary of State power to direct a local authority to make an order for the creation of a footpath or bridle-way):—
"(3) Where it appears to the Secretary of State in a particular case that there is need
86
for a footpath or bridleway as mentioned in subsection (1) of the last foregoing section, and he is satisfied as mentioned in that subsection, he may, after consultation with the appropriate highway authority, make a public path creation order creating the footpath or bridleway."
(2) In section 30 of that Act (which relates to the making up of new footpaths and bridle-ways)—

(a) subsections (2) and (3) (which relate to the settlement by the Secretary of State of disputes as to works for that purpose) shall cease to have effect; and

(b) in subsection (4) (which relates to the carrying out of such works and the recovery of expenses incurred in carrying them out), for the words from the beginning to "thereof", in the first place where it occurs, there shall be substituted the words "It shall be the duty of the highway authority to carry out any works specified in a certificate under subsection (1) of this section".

(3) The following subsections shall be substituted for subsection (5) of that section (which contains further provisions relating to public path creation orders):—
"(5) Where the Secretary of State makes a public path creation order under subsection (3) of the last foregoing section, he may direct that subsection (5A) of this section shall apply.
(5A) Where the Secretary of State gives such a direction—

(a) the local authority who, on the coming into force of the order, became the highway authority for the path or way in question shall survey the path or way and shall certify that work (if any) appears to them to be necessary to bring it into a fit condition for use by the public as a footpath or bridleway, as the case may be, and shall furnish the Secretary of State with a copy of the certificate;

(b) if the Secretary of State is not satisfied with a certificate made under the foregoing paragraph, he shall either cause a local inquiry to be held or shall give to the local authority an opportunity of being heard by a person appointed by him for the purpose and, after considering the report of the person appointed to hold the inquiry or the person so appointed as aforesaid, shall make such order either confirming or varying the certificate as he may think fit; and

(c) subject to the provisions of the last foregoing paragraph, it shall be the duty of the highway authority to carry out the work specified in a certificate made by them under paragraph (a) of this subsection."

(4) In section 112 of that Act (public path extinguishment and diversion orders)—

.(a) for the words in subsection (5) following paragraph (b) (which give the Secretary of State power to direct local authorities to make and submit to him a public path extinguishment order or a public path diversion order) there shall be substituted

87
the words "he may himself make the order after consultation with the appropriate authority"; and

(b) the following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (7):—

"(7) Where under subsection (5) of this section the Secretary of State decides to make a public path diversion order, he may require the owner, lessee or occupier on whose representations he is acting to enter into an agreement with such council as he may specify for the owner, lessee or occupier to defray, or to make such contribution as may be specified in the agreement towards, any such compensation or expenses as are specified in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 111(4) of this Act."
(5) In section 126 of that Act (authorisation of erection of stiles etc. in footpath or bridleway) subsection (2) which gives the Secretary of State power to determine certain disputes about such authorisations shall cease to have effect.
(6) In section 29(4) of the Countryside Act 1968 (by virtue of which a highway authority are required to consult the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food before refusing to make an order under that section relating to the making good of the surface of a footpath or bridleway after it has been ploughed up) the words "and the highway authority shall, before refusing to make an order under subsection (2) of this section, consult the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food" shall cease to have effect.
Abolition of Ministerial powers in respect of certain expenses
3.—(1) In section 181(1) of the Highways Act 1959 (under which a street works authority may recover from the owner of premises in respect of which any sum is due for expenses of street works the whole or any portion of that sum together with interest) after the word "interest" there shall be inserted the words "at such reasonable rates as the authority may determine."
(2) The proviso to section 211(2) of that Act (by virtue of which an order may fix the maximum amount to be charged under a charging order in respect of expenditure on street works) shall cease to have effect.
(3) In section 264 of that Act (recovery of expenses)—

(a) in subsection (1), after the word "interest", in the first place where it occurs, there shall be inserted the words "at such reasonable rate as the council may determine" and

(b) in subsection (2)—

(i) after the word "expenses" there shall be inserted the words "and interest"; and

(ii) after the words "with interest" there shall be inserted the words "on them at such reasonable rate as the authority may determine".

Abolition of Ministerial powers in relation to toll highways
4. In section 233 of the Highways Act 1959 (transfer of toll highways to highway authorities)—

(a) in subsection (2) (by virtue of which a
88
right to charge highway tolls which is transferred to a county council continues to be exercisable for such number of years only as may be allowed, where the county is in England, by the Minister of Transport, and where it is in Wales, by the Secretary of State) the words from "but" to the end shall cease to have effect; and

(b) in subsection (5) (by virtue of which agreements in relation to toll highways may only be made between two or more county councils with the approval, where their counties are in England, of the Minister of Transport, and where they are in Wales, of the Secretary of State) the words "subject to the approval of the Minister" shall cease to have effect.

Relaxation of requirements of confirmation by Minister for local authority orders stopping up private access to premises causing danger etc. to traffic on highway
5. In section 2 of the Highways Act 1971 (stopping up private access to premises)—

(a) the words "appropriate Minister" shall be substituted for the words "Secretary of State"—

(i) in each place where they occur in subsection (2),

(ii) in the first place where they occur in subsection (3);

(b) the following paragraphs shall be substituted for subsection (3)(c):—

"(c) for objections to the making of an order by the appropriate Minister received within such period as may be so prescribed and not withdrawn to be considered by him;

(ca) for objections to the confirmation of an order made by a local highway authority to be considered by the appropriate Minister if any of the objections to the confirmation of the order received within such period as may be so prescribed and not withdrawn was made by an owner, lessee or occupier of any premises with a private means of access which the order would authorise the highway authority to stop up;

(cb) for objections to the confirmation of an order made by a local highway authority received within such period as may be so prescribed and not with drawn to be considered by the local highway authority if there is no objection received within that period from an owner, lessee or occupier such as is mentioned in paragraph (ca) above or if all such objections so received are withdrawn before the order is referred to the appropriate Minister for confirmation;"; and

(c) the following subsections shall be substituted for subsection (4):—

"(4) In the case of an order made by a local highway authority under this section—

(a) if no objection to the confirmation of the order is received within the period prescribed by regulations under subsection (3) above; or

89

(b) if every such objection so received is withdrawn; or

(c) if every such objection so received from an owner, lessee or occupier of any premises with a private means of access which the order would authorise the highway authority to stop up is withdrawn,

the local highway authority may themselves confirm the order, with or without modifications.
(5) Before confirming an order with modifications the local highway authority, if they consider that the proposed modifications will make a substantial change in the order, shall inform every such owner, lessee or occupier is mentioned in subsection (4) (c) above and every other person who appears to them to be likely to be affected by the modifications to the order—

(a) of their intention to make the order; and

(b) of the form in which they propose to make it.

(6) The local highway authority shall give every such person as is mentioned in subsection (5) above an opportunity to make representation with regard to the order, and shall consider any representations with regard to it which any such person makes.
(7) In this section "the appropriate Minister" means, in relation to England, the Minister of Transport and, in relation to Wales, the Secretary of State."
Abolition of certain procedures for settlement of disputes by Minister
6.—(1) This paragraph shall have effect for the purpose of abolishing certain powers of the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport to determine disputes.
(2) The following subsection shall be substituted for section 5(3) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1953 (provision of omnibus shelters etc. by local authorities):—
"(3) Where the consent of the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport is required under this section, disputes between the Minister whose consent is required and the local authority as to whether the consent of that Minister is unreasonably withheld or is given subject to reasonable conditions, or whether the removal of any shelter or other accommodation in accordance with any condition of the consent is reasonably required shall be referred to and determined by an arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers."
(3) In section 108(10) of the Highways Act 1959 (which provides that any consent of an authority which is required for the diversion of a highway shall not be unreasonably with-
90
held) the words "and any question arising under this subsection whether the withholding of a consent is unreasonable shall be determined by the Minister" shall cease to have effect.
(4) Section 246(2) of that Act (disputes as to nature of sums paid or recovered under Act) shall cease to have effect.
(5) In Schedule 3 to the Public Health Act 1961 the following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph 4 (disputes as to consents for execution of works in streets for purposes of safety and of reduction of litter):—
"4. Where the consent of the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport is required under this Schedule, any dispute between the Minister whose consent is required and the authority as to whether the Minister's consent is unreasonably withheld or is given subject to reasonable conditions, or whether the removal of anything to the provision of which the consent relates in accordance with any condition of the consent is reasonably required shall be referred to and determined by an arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers".
(6) Section 29(3) of the Local Government Act 1966 (which gives a lighting authority a right to appeal in case of dispute as to the exercise of their powers for purposes of the lighting of a highway for which they are not the highway authority) shall cease to have effect.
(7) Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the Secretary of State or the Minister of Transport—

(a) determining any dispute referred or appeal brought to him under the provisions specified in subparagraphs (2) to (6) above before the passing of this Act; or

(b) exercising any power conferred on him under those provisions in respect of any such dispute or appeal.

Abolition certain Ministerial controls relating to structure on and near highway
7. The following provisions, namely—

(a) in the Highways Act 1959—

(i) the proviso to section 73(1) (requirement to notify of proposed building lines for classified roads); and

(ii) sections 95 and 96 (regulations about cattlegrids); and

(b) section 120 of the Transport Act 1968 (orders prescribing minimum weights for parapets of bridges carrying roads over railways);

shall cease to have effect.
Miscellaneous amendments of Highway Acts and associated legislation
8.—(1) Section 280(2), (3) and (4) of the Highways Act 1959 (which give powers to prescribe the form of various notices, orders, advertisements, certificates and other documents and provide that, if forms are prescribed in exercise of those powers, those forms or

91
forms to the like effect shall be used in all cases to which those forms are applicable) shall cease to have effect.
(2) The following enactments, namely—

(a) section 288 of the Highways Act 1959;

(b) section 16(4) of the Highways (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1961; and

(c) section 85 of the Highways Act 1971, (each of which gives a power to repeal or amend local Acts) shall cease to have effect.

(3) The repeal of the enactments specified in subsection (2) above shall not affect any application made under any of them before the passing of this Act; and any power conferred by any of them may accordingly be exercised after the passing of this Act in pursuance of any such application.
(4) Any order made under an enactment specified in sub-paragraph (2) above shall continue to have effect notwithstanding the repeal of that enactment.

ROAD TRAFFIC
Transfer of certain powers to make traffic regulation orders and experimental traffic orders and extension of powers to make experimental traffic orders
9.—(1) The following subsections shall be substituted for section 1(2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967:—
"(2) Subject to subsection (2A) of this section and to section 82 of this Act, the authority having power to make traffic regulation orders—

(a) as respects roads other than trunk roads, shall be the local authority, that is to say, the county council in England or Wales and the local highway authority in Scotland; and

(b) as respects trunk roads, shall be the appropriate Minister.

(2A) An order made by virtue of subsection (2)(a) above may relate to a length of trunk road if the order forms part of a scheme of general traffic control relating to roads at least one of which has a junction with the length of trunk road in question.
(2B) No order relating to a trunk road shall be made by virtue of subsection (2A) above without the consent of the appropriate Minister."
(2) The following subsections shall be substituted for section 9(2) of that Act—
"(2) Subject to section 82 of this Act, the authority having power to make an experimental traffic order—

(a) as respects any roads outside Greater London shall be the authority who would have power to make an order section 1(2) and 1(2A) of this Act in relation to them; and

(b) as respects any roads in Greater London, shall be the authority who would have power to make an order under section 6(2) of this Act in relation to them.

(2A) No order relating to a trunk road shall be made by virtue of subsection (2)
92
above without the consent of the appropriate Minister."
(3) In the said section 9—

(a) the following subsections shall be substituted for subsection (3):—

"(3) An experimental traffic order shall not continue in force for longer than 18 months.

(3A) Subject to sections 84A, 84B and 84C of this Act—

(a) where an authority have made an experimental traffic order for a period of less than 18 months; and

(b) the order has not ceased to be in force,

the authority may from time to time by order under this subsection direct that it shall continue in force for a further period ending not less than 18 months after it first came into force.";

(b) in subsection (5)—

(i) the words "made by the Greater London Council" shall be omitted; and

(ii) for the words "that Council" there shall be substituted the words "the authority who made the order".

Pedestrian crossings
10.—(1) The following section shall be substituted for section 21 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 (schemes for establishment of pedestrian crossings on roads other than trunk roads):—
"Powers of local authorities with respect to pedestrian crossings on roads other than trunk roads
21.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, a local authority shall have power—

(a) to eetablish on any roads in their area (other than trunk roads) crossings for foot passengers to be indicated in manner prescribed by regulations under section 23 of this Act; and

(b) to alter or remove any such crossings from roads in their area.

(1) Before establishing, altering or removing a crossing a local authority—

(a) shall consult the chief officer of police about their proposal to do so;

(b) shall give public notice of that proposal; and

(c) shall inform the appropriate Minister in writing.

(3) It shall be the duty of a local authority to execute any works (including the placing, erection, maintenance, alteration and removal of marks and traffic signs) required—

(a) in connection with the establishment, alteration, or removal of crossings in accordance with regulations having effect under section 23 of this Act; or

(b) in connection with the indication of crossings in accordance with such regulations.

(4) in this section "local authority" means—

(a) as respects England and Wales, the council of a county or the Greater London Council; and

(b) as respects Scotland, the local highway authority.

(5) Before the Greater London Council establish, alter or remove a crossing on any road under this section they shall consult any other council, being the council of a London borough or the Common Council of the City of London, within whose area the road is situated."
(2) Subsections (2) and (3) of the section substituted for section 21 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 by subsection (1) above shall cease to have effect in relation to the alteration and removal of crossings established under the said section 21 before the passing of this Act as they have effect in relation to the alteration and removal of crossings so established thereafter.
(3) Any regulations under section 23 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 (pedestrian crossing regulations) shall apply to crossings which may be established under the section substituted for section 21 of that Act by subsection (1) above as they apply to crossings established under that section before the passing of this Act.
(4) Any reference to a crossing in the said section 23 is a reference to a crossing established before or after the passing of this Act.
Abolition of Ministerial powers in respect of local authority orders prohibiting traffic on roads to be used as playgrounds
11. In section 26 of that Act (powers of local authorities to prohibit traffic on roads to be used as playgrounds) subsection (5) (which gives the appropriate Minister power to vary or revoke an order made under that section by a local highway authority) shall cease to have effect.
Orders preventing vehicular access to premises for more than eight hours in any 24
12.—(1) In section 84(B)(1) of that Act (requirement of ministerial consent for the inclusion of certain provisions in traffic regulation orders) after the word "except" there shall be inserted the words "in a case to which subsection (1A) or (1B) below applies or".
(2) The following subsections shall be inserted after that subsection:—
"(1A) This subsection applies where—

(a) it is proposed to include in the order any such provision as is mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above; and

(b) either—

(i) no owner, lessee or occupier of premises such as are mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above has submitted to the authority any objection to the inclusion of that provision in the order; or

(ii) any such owner, lessee or occupier who has submitted such an objection has withdrawn it.

94
(1B) This subsection applies in the case of any order proposed to be made under section 9 above where—

(a) it is proposed to include in the order any such provision as is mentioned in subsection (1)(a) above; and

(b) the effect of the prohibition by the order of the use of the road to which it relates or of any restriction on the use of that road contained in the order would be to prevent vehicles, or vehicles of any class, being loaded or unloaded in that road or to prevent persons boarding or alighting from a stage carriage on that road; and

(c) either—

(i) no person has submitted to the authority any objection to the making of the order on the ground that it would prevent vehicles, or vehicles of that class, being loaded or unloaded in the road and no person being the operator of a stage carriage service (as defined in section 44(3) of the Transport Act 1980) has submitted to the authority any objection to the making of the order on the ground that it would prevent persons boarding or alighting from a stage carriage being used in that service in the road; or

(ii) any such person who has submitted an objection on the ground has withdrawn it."

Traffic regulation in special areas in the country-side and traffic signs etc. on Crown roads
13.—(1) In section 32(4) of the Countryside Act 1968 (by virtue of which the appropriate Minister may only exercise the power of making a traffic regulation order conferred by subsection (3) of that section as respects a road if the Countryside Commission or, as the case may be, the Countryside Commission for Scotland have made submissions to him as to the desirability of making such an order) for the words from "except" to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words "unless—

(a) he has received such a submission with respect to that road; and

(b) the authority having power to make an order as respects that road under the said section 1 having notified him that they do not intend to make such an order."

(2) Subsection (9) of that section (power of appropriate Minister, after consulting the appropriate Crown authority, to give directions to the local authority concerned with any Crown road requiring them to remove, or cause to be removed, traffic signs etc.) shall cease to have effect.
Traffic on bridges etc.
14.—(1) The following enactments (which relate to the control of traffic on bridges and, amongst other things, give certain powers in relation to its control) shall cease to have effect—

(a) section 6 of the Locomotive Act 1861;

95

(b) section 7 of the Locomotives Act 1898;

(c) section 11 of the Ministry of Transport Act 1919; and

(d) section 17 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967.

(2) Nothing in subparagraph (1) above shall affect—

(a) any requirement to obtain consent under section 6 of the Locomotive Act 1861 which subsists at the passing of this Act by virtue of the placing of a notice on any bridge, or any liability for failure to obtain consent under that section; or

(b) any appeal to the Minister of Transport or, as the case may be, to the Secretary of State, under section 7 of the Locomotives Act 1898 or section 11 of the Ministry of Transport Act 1919 which is pending on the passing of this Act.

(3) From the passing of this Act any notice placed on a bridge by authority of a person such as is mentioned in section 6 of the Locomotive Act 1861 shall be deemed to have been placed there—

(a) if the bridge is outside Greater London, in pursuance of an order under section 1 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967; and

(b) if it is in Greater London, in pursuance of an order under section 6 of that Act.

(4) Nothing in this paragraph affects a bridge which does not carry a road (within the meaning of section 104(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967).
Miscellaneous amendments
15.—(1) Section 1(9) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 (power of appropriate Minister to repeal local Acts extending the powers of section 26 of the Road Traffic Act 1960) shall cease to have effect.
(2) Any order made under section 1(9) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 shall continue to have effect notwithstanding the repeal of that subsection.").
The noble Viscount said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Ridley, I beg formally to move the amendment standing in his name.
Lord AVEBURY: I think that we have already discussed Amendment No. 16A in connection with an earlier amendment. The noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, explained that this schedule originally appeared in the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 1) Bill and then it mysteriously vanished, like the smile of the Cheshire cat, as he put it, and that he was causing it to reappear. He was arguing that the Government had rightly included it in the original Bill and therefore it was suggested that it should be reincorporated in the No. 2 Bill. The Minister, in three or four sentences,
96
agreed with his noble friend without giving any explanation of why the schedule had disappeared in the first place.
However, some extremely important matters are dealt with in this new schedule, and perhaps noble Lords may not have studied it with the degree of intensity with which they studied the Bill itself because they were not sure that the Government were going to accept the proposals of the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley. They might have thought that the Government had every intention of leaving out these proposals when they brought forward the No. 2 Bill, and since some very substantial matters are there dealt with, I think that we are owed from the Minister a little more of an explanation than we had in answer to the previous amendment. I hope that the noble Earl will say why the Government saw fit to drop the proposal from the No. 1 and No. 2 Bills and why they now think it advisable, on the short recommendation of the noble Viscount, to reintroduce it with very little discussion.
Earl FERRERS: I would be delighted to help the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in any way I can but I fear that the noble Lord's powers of concentration must have slipped somewhat. I did give a certain explanation as to why he accepted this. I explained, when Amendment No. 9 was first introduced, that the amendment had the effect of restoring parts of the No. 1 Bill which relaxes ministerial controls and highway regulation matters. They were omitted from the present Bill because of the pressure of time. They implemented proposals in the Government's White Paper, Central Government Controls over Local Authorities.
I said to my noble friend Lord Ridley that I was grateful to him for incorporating in this amendment changes which my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport had agreed after considering representations which had been made in response to the White Paper. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said that the Government have introduced these amendments. They have not. It is my noble friend Lord Ridley. All I was saying was that as these were primarily things with which we agreed, as they were the result of wide consultation, as they were uncontroversial, and as they would

97
relieve local authorities of burdens, inconveniences and limitations, which they would like to see the back of sooner rather than later, the Government would be happy to have this incorporated into this Bill. Had my friend not put it in, it would have been our intention to produce similar amendments at some later stage in some other legislation. As he has seen fit to put them in now, we are happy to accept them.
Viscount AMORY: I think the explanations my noble friend Lord Ferrers gave were wholly satisfactory to my noble friend Lord Ridley. If he had been present he would have been glad to say so.
[Amendment No. 17 not moved.]
6.23 p.m.
The LORD ADVOCATE (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)The LORD ADVOCATE (Lord Mackay of Clashfern) moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 3, line 8, leave out ("and").
The noble and learned Lord said: It might be convenient if I explained Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 together. Amendment 18 is simply a paving amendment to make way for Amendment 19. The purpose of Amendment 19 is first of all to extend to Scotland, and then to certain other bodies having a call on the rates, the provisions contained in Clause 2. In relation to Scotland, I should like to explain that at the time this Bill was first introduced in the other place my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland had hoped that it would be possible to make arrangements with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities concerning the publication of information. Consultations about the publication of financial information are still continuing, but the convention have made it clear that they are unable to reach agreement at the present time over the Secretary of State's wishes as regards the publication of information about manpower.
The latest manpower statistics for Scottish local authorities reveal an upward trend, in direct contradiction of present Government policy. It is of deep concern to the Secretary of State for Scotland that aggregate manpower levels seem to be
98
about 4,000 above the level which pertained when he came to office, despite his exhortations to local authorities to reduce manning levels. The Secretary of State believes that those local authorities which have decided to pursue policies which are contrary to the Government's wishes should be held fully accountable for that decision, through the regular publication of basic information about manpower. In these circumstances my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland feels that he should now take the opportunity, provided by the consideration of this Bill in this Committee, to provide powers similar to those already in Clause 2 to affect local authorities in Scotland.
The initial focus of any code of practice prepared for Scotland would be on manpower levels and would be prepared in consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. He very much hopes that a code agreed by that association will be adopted by all Scottish local authorities and that regulations will not be necessary.
As regards the other types of authority included in this amendment, it is the Government's intention that police and fire authorities and the Inner London Education Authority should be held accountable for their decisions, as they affect ratepayers in the same way that is intended for local authorities in general. The special constitution of police and fire authorities require that there should be scope in legislation for separate codes of practice to be prepared specifically for the guidance of these bodies. Following representations from the Greater London Council and others, it is clear that the Inner London Education Authority should clearly be seen to be separately accountable for the provision of education in Inner London. Without this amendment, we are advised that this would not be possible. Accordingly, I commend this amendment to your Lordships.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 3, line 9, at end insert—

("(g) in Scotland, a regional, islands or district council;

(h) a fire authority constituted by a combination scheme under section 5 or 6 of the

99
Fire Services Act 1947, or in Scotland, a joint committee constituted by an administration scheme under section 36 of that Act;

(j) a police committee constituted under section 2 of the Police Act 1964 or in Scotland, a police authority constituted under section 2 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967;

(k) a combined police authority constituted in accordance with the provisions of an amalgamation scheme under section 21 of the Police Act 1964 or in Scotland, a joint police committee constituted in accordance with the provisions of an amalgamation scheme under section 21 or 21A of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967; and

(l) the Inner London Education Authority.").

The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move.
Baroness DAVID: May I ask the Minister a question about ILEA? There have been consultations with other councils, and so on, which have been asked to produce information. Can the Minister tell me whether there have been any consultations with ILEA?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I am sorry, I cannot answer that question immediately but I hope I shall be able to do so in a little while.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: Should we not have this information? I am sorry I missed the short speech of the Lord Advocate on this point. It is strange to have a second thought at this very late stage in the Bill and to introduce something applying to Scotland which was not there originally. As I understand it, there has been no agreement with the Scottish local authorities about this. I find it difficult to justify this sudden thought by the Government that they should be able to demand information from local authorities, at a time when they are seeking to restrict the expenditure of local authorities. Can we be given clear information about the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and their attitude to this?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I perhaps should say that the information for which the noble Baroness, Lady David, asked is not quite the same information as that which is asked for by the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock. So far as the information that he has
100
asked for is concerned, I tried to give that and explained that the Secretary of State for Scotland tried to reach agreement with COSLA and had gone reasonably far along the road. As at present advised, however, it does not seem likely that he would be able to achieve complete agreement on what is required. In view of that position, therefore, he felt it was right that the Committee should be asked that these powers should be added to the Bill.
Regarding the information for which the noble Baroness, Lady David, asks, so far as I can ascertain—and it is fairly provisional—there was discussion, but not with ILEA itself.
Baroness DAVID: I thank the Minister for his reply, but of course it is far from satisfactory. Can he please tell me if there will be proper consultations with ILEA?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: There are certainly to be consultations with ILEA about the form of information required. So far as this particular proposal is concerned, it is a proposal which would lead only in the first instance to a code affecting ILEA. There will of course be consultation about the form of information that might be provided.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: This would apply to the Scottish local authorities, too?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: There has certainly been a good deal of consultation with the Scottish local authorities already on this subject.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: Yes, but there has been no agreement so far.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I accept that, but the consultations will certainly go on. The Secretary of State for Scotland is very anxious to proceed by agreement if possible. That has always been his object in this particular exercise. It is the reason that these powers were not sought in the first instance. At present it looks as though agreement may not be possible and therefore it is wise to take these powers. It does not at all mean that consultation will not continue.
Baroness STEDMAN: Consultation is right and proper with the Scottish authorities, whether you get agreement at the end of it or not. Who are the people who have been consulted about ILEA? Why have not the representatives of ILEA been consulted about ILEA?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I think that the primary consultation about ILEA was with the GLC, and from that it seems to have emerged that there was considerable scope for separating the functions of ILEA in relation to information from the others. Indeed, from Amendment No. 17 which was put down I had rather taken it that this was a view which was shared by noble friends of the noble Baroness opposite, and it certainly seems to me to be a reasonable idea in the circumstances.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 3, line 10, leave out ("It shall he the duty of the Secretary of State to") and insert ("The Secretary of State may").
The noble and learned Lord said: The purpose of this amendment is to remove the provision that the Secretary of State shall have a duty to make codes and to replace it with a discretion. This seems particularly appropriate in view of the fact that the provisions of Clause 2 have been extended in the way that I have just described; and, if I may make a particular reference to Scotland, it is to make it perfectly plain that the Secretary of State for Scotland will have no duty to make a code if he can reach agreement with the local authorities without that.
The result of this amendment will be to ensure that the Secretary of State will have the flexibility which is necessary to devise codes of practice and any supporting regulations which are designed with either a general or limited coverage of authorities, as seems most appropriate in the particular circumstances. Discretion appears better than duty in this context, and I therefore commend this amendment to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Baroness DAVID: I think this is a slight improvement, and we would welcome this amendment.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 21:
Page 3, line 14, at end insert—
("(2A) In relation to the Inner London Education Area functions conferred on education authorities by the Education Acts 1944 to 1980 shall be treated for the purposes of this section as conferred on the Inner London Education Authority.").
The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is really technical in character, to make possible the amendment which I referred to earlier so far as the Inner London Education Authority is concerned. It is to make it possible to treat it for the purposes of this particular clause, and this particular clause only, as the education authority. As noble Lords will appreciate, the Inner London Education Authority is, strictly speaking, a committee of the Greater London Council, and it is for that reason that it is necessary to make this amendment. I would ask your Lordships to accept it, and I beg to move.
6.34 p.m.
Lord BANKS Lord BANKS moved Amendment No. 22:
Page 3, line 14, at end insert—
("( ) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) above an authority to whom this section applies shall publish in respect of each financial year such information as the Secretary of State may prescribe about the arrangements of that authority in that year for the recruitment and training of disabled persons and for the employment, training and advancement of disabled employees.").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 22 and to speak to Amendment No. 27, which is related to it. During the Committee stage in another place on what is now the Companies Act 1980, the Government accepted an amendment which required companies to provide for the Secretary of State each year information about their arrangements during the preceding year in respect of the recruitment and training of disabled persons, and of the employment, training and advancement of disabled employees. Regulations implementing that are now in force.
During the Report stage in this House of the Health Services Bill, I moved an amendment designed to place a similar obligation on statutory health authorities.

103
In his reply, the noble Lord, Lord Cullen of Ashbourne, re-affirmed that the Government were concerned that all employers in the public and private sectors should accept their proper responsibility for employing disabled people. He said, further, that the Secretary of State for Social Services would be drawing the attention of health authorities to the obligation being laid on companies to provide this information, and that he would be discussing with health authorities in what way they could best meet the Government's objectives. In the light of those assurances I withdrew the amendment. These amendments, to which I now speak, would place upon local authorities an obligation similar to that placed on companies.
The record of local authorities is not good in this matter of employing disabled persons. During the four years 1976 to 1979, no English metropolitan district and no English non-metropolitan county satisfied the 3 per cent. quota. In 1976, 32.8 per cent. of English non-metropolitan districts satisfied the quota, but by 1979 this figure had fallen steadily to 17.2 per cent. Throughout the four years, only one Greater London authority satisfied the quota. Among the Welsh counties the position is much the same, although the Welsh districts have a better record. Scottish regions and Scottish Island authorities all failed to satisfy the quota, while only a quarter to a third of Scottish districts did so. It is clear that there is very great room for improvement, and it seems appropriate to arrange, as these amendments do, for progress to be carefully monitored. I beg to move.
Baroness DAVID: We should like to support this amendment.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: too, welcome the amendment in the sense that it draws to our attention the need for public bodies, local authorities in particular, to account for their performance as employers, particularly in relation to the disabled. In the course of the public consultations which we have held on the publication of information initiative, we have received submissions on a wide variety of local authority activities which are felt to be worthy of public attention, including the views of organisations
104
representing the disabled, and from various trade unions. We will take due account of all these suggestions in framing the codes of practice specifying the information which is to be published, within the confines of our concern not to overburden local authorities with additional, unnecessary administrative procedures.
However sympathetic we are to the noble Lord's intentions, the clause as already drafted would enable us to achieve all that the amendment seeks if it were decided to do so. At present, by the clause the Secretary of State is given complete discretion to specify the information which authorities should publish, and if necessary to secure such publication by making statutory regulations enforcing all or part of the relevant code of practice. Strictly speaking, therefore, the amendment is unnecessary to achieve its intentions. When it comes to preparing codes of practice on publication of information of the appropriate type, I can assure noble Lords that we will take account of the views expressed in relation to this amendment. I think, however, that we should have to have regard to the degree of detail that it is appropriate to go into in the various codes of practice, and I would not wish today to give a firm commitment to including detailed information about employers dealing with the disabled, since this might be out of keeping with the more general type of information that will be the focus of the codes to be prepared.
Therefore, sympathetic though we are to the spirit of the amendment, we consider it unnecessary, and for the reasons I have given I hope the noble Lord will see his way clear to withdrawing this amendment.
Lord BANKS: I should like to thank the noble and learned Lord for his reply. I welcome the fact that he re-affirmed once again the Government's concern in this matter and their desire that public bodies should play their proper part in employing disabled people. I am not altogether happy that the arrangements which he suggested could be put into force under the Bill will actually achieve this end. He said that the Minister could take action, but he did not say that he would take action. We shall have to wait to see what he does under the powers already in the Bill if we do not press this

105
amendment. However, I should like to consider further what the noble and learned Lord has said, and in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Viscount AMORY Viscount AMORY moved manuscript Amendment No. 22ZA:
Page 3, line 14, at end insert:
("(2A) Any code issued under this Section shall not require the publication of information more frequently than annually except for the following categories—

(a) manpower statistics;

(b) progress in dealing with planning applications;

(c) land holdings and land transactions;

(d) progress on housing construction projects.

(2B) The categories mentioned in subsection (2A) above may be extended by Order subject to affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament.").
The noble Viscount said: I beg to move the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Ridley. All the local authorities that I know are in favour of full disclosure of information; the more the better. It is in their own interests that their electorate should be fully informed of what they are doing and the reason why. Therefore, we are in favour of codes of practice. I think the reservation of those authorities that I have been in touch with is about the degree to which there should be central direction in this manner.
The Government are proposing that there should be three codes of practice issued under Clause 2. The first deals with information to be published with rate demands; and this code has already been issued. The second deals with information to be provided in annual reports on financial and non-financial performances together with key indicators for main local government services. That seems to be sensible. The third deals with information published quarterly or at more frequent intervals than annually. It is there, I think, that there are reservations. The first two objectors seem excellent. This third one, at quarterly intervals, seems to involve an unnecessary degree of central Government direction and would very likely involve local authorities in additional expense. As the main committees of most local authorities
106
are held in public, a great deal of information already gets out through those normal channels; so that the object of this amendment, while approving of the first two of the circumstances in which codes of practice are proposed by the Government, is to suggest that in the case of more frequent reports than annual reports there should not be any statutory direction made. I beg to move.
Lord SANDFORD: I should like to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Amory, because it incorporates a number of misgivings which I myself share. I have other reservations about this clause which I shall deal with in my own amendment which follows; but I think it is important that we stick strictly to the principle which the Government have now accepted: that all this should be done by way of voluntary codes devised by the associations in co-operation with the Government and issued by the Secretary of State but not, on the whole, prescribed in detail by statute through Parliament. The restrictions and constraints that my noble friend's amendment recommends would fall in line with my general approach to the whole matter.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I welcome the amendment moved by the noble Viscount. I think that generally most local authorities probably already provide a fair amount of information voluntarily. There are local authorities which are obscurantist and do not do so and for that reason mainly I welcome from these Benches the concept of the publication of information by local authorities. However, what worries me is the public being inundated with almost continual reports and indications of what the local authority is doing when they do not want that kind of information. I have a letter from the Wye Forest District Council in the Midlands in which they say:
"Ever since we came into being we have published an annual report of our activities over the past 12 months and our corporate plans showing our proposals for the next three years. We distribute copies of this document to all our members, our local county councils, the county council, all other district councils of the county and a long list of local organisations. We also make it known that it is available for any member of the public who may request a copy. The solid fact is that we are very rarely asked for a copy".

107
They go on:
"A further and more relevant example of public interest is that we sell an average of only one copy of our abstract of accounts to the public each year".
The abstract of accounts is one medium proposed for the dissemination of information in this Bill.
This council and other local authorities which have contacted me, suggest that, if this amendment is not accepted, to comply with the provisions of the Bill would not add to the sum of human information and knowledge in the districts and the county but would add considerably to the cost—which is contrary to the expressed desire of the present Government. Therefore, I think this amendment (if the Government can see their way to supporting it) would retain a very important part of this Bill—that is, the implementation of public information provisions about things which are important to the public—would make certain that recalcitrant councils fell into place and at the same time would prevent local authorities having to take on extra staff at extra cost to distribute information at a frequency which I am sure the average member of the public would not want. I hope the Government will accept this amendment.
Baroness DAVID: I should like to ask two questions. Having had this manuscript amendment only this afternoon, I should like a little longer to think about it. I should like to ask if it comes from all the associations or whether this is just from the ACC. The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, gave his support to it. I know he is not supposed to be speaking for the ACC, but I should like to know if they support this. I thought, from the amendment he has down next, that he would not like short-term indicators like this more frequently than annually. I should like to hear whether this comes from all the associations or only from the ACC with modified support perhaps from the ADC.
Viscount AMORY: In reply to the noble Baroness, I cannot answer her question exactly. I myself have been in touch with county councils and one district council in the matter. I had a most amiable conversation, sotto voce, with
108
my noble friend sitting beside me which makes me think that, speaking for his body, he would say it does have their support. But I hasten to say that perhaps he will wish to add to what I have said. I can only speak for those authorities with which I personally have been in touch.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: The attitude of the Government to the manuscript amendment is that it appears to be acceptable in principle. The object of the clause has been welcomed in various parts of the Committee and I appreciate that. It has been said that this particular amendment might help achieve the object of the clause, at the same time cutting out unnecessary duplication and unnecessary bureaucracy in trying to implement or achieve that objective. The noble Baroness, Lady David, said she would like some further time to consider it and I should like to have the same. So my attitude to this is that we should like to have the opportunity to consider it. The principle appears very acceptable and I should be glad if the noble Viscount feels able to withdraw the amendment on that understanding.
Viscount AMORY: I quote understand what my noble and learned friend says, that he wishes to have more time to consider it. I am very grateful to the Committee for considering a manuscript amendment in this way. I am sure that in the circumstances my noble friend would wish to withdraw his amendment in view of what my noble and learned friend has just said.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.50 p.m.
Lord SANDFORD Lord SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 22A:
Page 3, line 20, leave out subsections (5) to (13) and insert—
("(5) If the Secretary of State is satisfied that an authority to whom this section applies has failed to comply with the terms of a code, he may direct that authority to take such steps to secure compliance with the code as he may specify").
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment, may I speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 25A and 26A. I will not cause any inconvenience to Amendments Nos. 23, 24 and 25 because

109
if my noble and learned friend can say in respect of my amendment that he will consider it at the same time as he has promised to consider Amendment No. 22ZA, I shall be able to withdraw it.
I believe that all the associations are glad that the Government have agreed that this publication of information should be handled by way of a voluntary code devised by the associations in consultation with the Secretary of State and just issued by him. If that is to be the character of the code, we do not want to start by prescribing in legislation in as much detail as is set out in subsections (5) to (15) inclusive what it should contain. That goes a long way to making it a statutory code and not a voluntary one. That is the first point I want to make.
The second point is that the fall-back power to make regulations which is included at the moment in those subsections is such that if it turned out that a small number of local government bodies, county councils or district councils, were failing to comply with the voluntary code, all that the Secretary of State needs to do is to exercise the powers which will be conferred upon him by the wording of my amendment. That is to say, he can take powers in respect of a particular authority that has failed to comply with particular parts of the code and direct that authority to take such steps to secure compliance with the code as he may specify. If he did that, then all the associations will be satisfied because the great bulk of the local authorities could then continue to operate under the voluntary code, which we all hope will be the situation that will pertain in the future in the great majority of cases.
We do not want the fact that a few individual local authorities fail to comply to become an excuse for the Secretary of State to take powers over all authorities and thereby convert a voluntary code to which he has just agreed back into a statutory one. That is the purpose of this amendment. I am not wedded to the particular form of it, and if my noble and learned friend will say that he will consider it at the same time as he considers Amendment No. 22ZA, I shall be glad to withdraw it for the time being. I beg to move.
Baroness DAVID: We have a good deal of sympathy with this amendment. It seems to make it a little less hard for the councils in the information that they have to give and it gives them a little more freedom. Again, we do not like the making of regulations so strictly, so we would support these amendments.
Viscount SIMON: I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, can clarify one point. He is anxious not to have the statutory code. If the voluntary code is not complied with then the Secretary of State can require it. That seems indistinguishable from a statutory code.
Lord SANDFORD: I think not. The associations have had long discussions with the Secretary of State about this. It was his original intention to introduce a statutory code which would be binding and have the force of statute on all local authorities that make up all the associations, and he would have powers to enforce it. All are now agreed that a voluntary code devised by the associations in consultation with the department, issued by the Secretary of State, is a much better way of approaching it. The first two codes have already been issued so we are well on the way. The principle has been agreed. We are having a certain amount of discussion and argument about the next one. There can be a whole succession of codes covering different subjects agreed to voluntarily by the associations.
I think that the hope of most of those involved is that those authorities concerned will abide by that. Of course, some sanctions are required. The sanction proposed by my amendment will enable the Secretary of State to identify individual authorities which have departed from the code and apply the powers incorporated in the phrasing of my amendment to those authorities only, leaving the rest of them governed, guided but not statutorily controlled by a voluntary code. That is the situation that we are seeking to achieve. The Secretary of State's proposals in subsections (5) to (13) go too far, in our view and in the view of the Association of County Councils, towards reinstating a statutory code with statutory sanctions applied by him.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I think that it is apparent that my noble friend Lord Sandford and I are agreed that there is a great deal of force to commend the codes in this area being voluntary codes. There is nothing in the later part of the clause which departs from that except in the event that these voluntary codes do not manifest themselves in the general practice of local authorities. Accordingly, where we differ is really on what happens then.
May I first of all say that Lord Sandford's amendment seeks to leave out subsections (5) to (13) of the clause as drafted. Subsections (5) to (9) are important subsections in connection with codes of practice. For example, the provision for different codes to relate to different authorities in different areas is a valuable provision in relation to the codes which I would have thought ought to be retained, even assuming that one was to go along with the idea that the mode of enforcing the code against an authority that did not comply with it was of the kind that my noble friend has indicated. On that point—that is to say, the method of enforcement—we would say that the purpose of these codes and the purpose of the regulation-making power is not so much related to individual authorities but is related to general standards.
On the matter of regulations, in order to assess the need for individual directions instead of general regulations the Government would have to employ a considerable number of civil servants for the purpose of evaluating the publications produced by each and every local authority under a code. This is certainly not our intention; and it would in addition be completely contrary to the objective of placing the responsibility for local affairs on the local community.
In our view what is presently proposed is much better. First of all, voluntary codes and—hopefully—nothing more. If these voluntary codes are not honoured in practice, then regulations can enforce the provisions of the codes; and these regulations are to be of a general character. Only if that stage had been reached would there by any question of taking action against a local authority. In the view of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, that is preferable to a provision which would seek to take action against a
112
local authority immediately on the basis of a voluntary code. I hope that possibly, in the light of that explanation, my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: I am sorry that the Government seem to set their face against all sides. There is no doubt that the detail of the Bill, as it now stands, makes what is called a voluntary code into what is almost a statutory one. By the words of my noble friend's amendment we shall achieve all that we want, and we shall keep it in the realm of a voluntary code. There has been support from both sides and I am rather sad that the Government have set their face against the amendment. The point made by the noble Lord on the Liberal Benches was that this would be statutory and not voluntary. That is the only point. So I should have thought, in view of the experience of noble Lords on all sides, that this is really an occasion for my noble and learned friend to say, as he has said on previous amendments, that he will look at this again. Perhaps the words are not ideal, but the detail of the Bill as it now stands means that this will not be a voluntary code. I wonder whether my noble and learned friend can find it in his heart to go to the Dispatch Box and say that he will have second thoughts. That would bring joy to the whole Chamber. I think he ought to do that and it is a good idea.
Lord SANDFORD: Unless my noble and learned friend wants to comment further, may I suggest, having heard Big Ben signal the time for supper, that we withdraw both of these amendments now and think again about the matter. I am afraid I feel that the wording of the clause at the moment makes it too much like a voluntary code in a pretty firm statutory framework, whereas I should like to see a voluntary code freely devised by the associations and the Secretary of State, and then issued by him with very limited statutory sanctions. This has been a useful discussion. There are two amendments—my own and that of my noble friend Lord Ridley—and I should prefer to withdraw this amendment and return to it in consultation before the next stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord DENHAM: This might be a convenient time for this Committee stage to be adjourned. May I, possibly for elucidation, say that the Committee stage will be resumed, with your Lordships' permission, at eight o'clock tonight. I beg to move that the House be resumed.
House resumed.

MATRIMONIAL HOMES (CO-OWNERSHIP) BILL [H.L.]
7.3 p.m.
Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Matrimonial Homes (Co-ownership) Bill. I think I should explain to your Lordships why I am taking this course, after your Lordships gave it such overwhelming support on Second Reading; support so unanimous that my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack felt it incumbent, as he said, to act as the Devil's advocate against the Bill. My noble and learned friend is never anything else but effective as an advocate, but I am bound to say that he is more convincing when he has a more congenial client to represent.
The Bill was not, in any event, going to make progress during this Session, but the supporters of the Bill understood that it would be reintroduced at the beginning of next Session. In the meantime, though, there has been a decision by an Appellate Committee of your Lordships' House in a case called Williams and Glyn's Bank v. Bolland, which was argued last April and decided in June. That was a highly technical matter with which I do not propose to trouble your Lordships. It had to deal with land registration and a concept called overriding interest. My noble and learned friend Lord Scarman was a member of the committee and he will, no doubt, go further into it if your Lordships so require.
But one of the effects of the decision was that my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack thought that the whole matter of land registration and overriding interest should be considered by the Law Commission. As the matter impinged slightly on the Matrimonial
114
Homes (Co-ownership) Bill, he asked whether I would withdraw the measure so that the Law Commission could consider any repercussions, and, of course, my noble and learned friend having expressed that wish, I was anxious to comply.
I know that there have been misgivings that a reference back to the Law Commission might be simply a manoeuvre to stifle the Bill. I do not myself believe that. My noble and learned friend, when he wrote to me, said that he thought that that course would give the Bill a better opportunity of passing into law. I have been assured by the chairman of the Law Commission that there is no question of going back on the principle of co-ownership which has been accepted since 1973, when my noble and learned friend Lord Scarman was chairman of the Law Commission, and in the form of a Bill since 1978, when the late Mr. Justice Cooke was chairman. The present chairman has, as I said, assured me that there is no question of going back on that principle.
As I understand it, therefore, the task of the Law Commission will be to see whether the machinery of the Bill needs any reconsideration in the light of the Bolland case. My own view is that it can have only the slightest repercussion, because the only clause that I can see which might be affected is Clause 24(4), which is in declaratory form and might need a slight change of wording. My noble and learned friend Lord Scarman, who knows much more about this matter than I do from both sides—the Law Commission and your Lordships' Appellate Committee—considers that the Bill does not require any amendment at all. Therefore, I cannot conceive that it would be a matter of any prolonged delay if the course which my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack favours were followed. In those circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be withdrawn.—(Lord Simon of Glaisdale.)
7.10 p.m.
Lord SCARMAN: I cannot think that the House would be very pleased if I were to accept my noble and learned friend's invitation to explain the techni-

115
calities of the Bolland decision or its relationship to the Matrimonal Homes (Co-ownership) Bill, and I politely and firmly decline the invitation.
I am a reluctant supporter of the order for which my noble and learned friend is asking. I am reluctant because I think it is a pity that we should have further delay before a Bill which has been so thoroughly thought out by the Law Commission and which has tremendous support is enacted. But I respect the decision to ask the Law Commission to take another look at this highly technical problem with which it is concerned and, like my noble and learned friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale, I am content, or at any rate I accept, that the order committing the Bill to the Committee should be discharged.
Lord RENTON: My Lords, it will be well known to your Lordships, especially to noble and learned Lords, that the Law Commission always have more on their plate than they can readily digest. Therefore one hopes that when this matter is referred to the Law Commission, as I hope it has already been, they will not find there are so many other matters of pressing urgency that this must go to the end of the queue. I do not know whether my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is able to give us any idea of the degree of priority which this matter will have, but certainly it should not be long postponed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, before I formally put to the House the leave to withdraw the Bill asked for by my noble and learned friend on the Cross-Benches, perhaps I may say by way of a footnote that I was, as a matter of fact, taken entirely by surprise and that I was not conscious that this matter was going to be raised this evening—so much so that I had to change my clothes twice during the course of the day. I owe it entirely to the courtesy of my noble and learned friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale that I was told at all, otherwise I might well not have been here. I therefore speak without adequate preparation. However, I can assure my noble and learned friend that so far as I am concerned there is no question of a manoeuvre of any kind. I am very largely in the hands of the present and the former chairman of the Law Commission.
116
I cannot give my noble friend Lord Renton any immediate news, but I will try to find out for him the answer to his question, so far as I am able, and I think that to write to him would be the best plan. There will be no chance whatever of this Bill reaching the statute book in this Session, so we shall all have time to reflect upon what has taken place.
I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale for having made the matter so plain. There are questions of a technical character arising out of the land registration case to which reference has been made which the Law Commission wish to consider in connection with the Bill. I cannot say what will be the result of it, but both of my noble and learned friends on the Cross-Benches are there to act as eagle-eyed inspectors of what goes on. Therefore I apprehend that no harm will be done, while they are there, at any rate, to the supporters of the Bill, and certainly they are losing nothing by the step which is at present proposed.
Bill, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8 p.m.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.15 to 8 p.m.]

LOCAL GOVERNMENT, PLANNING AND LAND (No. 2) BILL
Committee stage resumed.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 23:
Page 3, line 31, at end insert ("or the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973").
The noble and learned Lord said: While moving Amendment No. 23 I will also speak to Amendments Nos. 24 and 25. These are technical amendments necessary for the application of this clause to Scotland, as I explained to your Lordships earlier. I beg to move.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendments Nos. 24 and 25:
Page 3, line 35, after ("1972") insert ("or section 105 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973").
Page 4, line 16, after ("England") insert (", authorities in Scotland").
[Amendment No. 25A not moved.]
8.2 p.m.
Baroness DAVID Baroness DAVID moved Amendment No. 26:
Page 4, line 27, at end insert—
("In addition, the Secretary of State shall consult those trade unions represented on the various negotiating bodies for local authority workers, and shall consult the T.U.C").
The noble Baroness said: We appreciate the improvements to this clause that were made at Report stage in another place in that a code of practice has been produced and that local authority associations have been consulted on it, even though they may not be entirely happy about it, as was clear from what happened earlier today. We feel that the unions representing those who work for local authorities and the TUC Local Government Committee should in all fairness be consulted. I know that there have been consultations but we should like this to be written into the Bill.
If good industrial relations are to be fostered—and surely the Government would wish for that—this would seem to be one way to do it. It is the men and women who work for local authorities who will be preparing the statistics and explanatory information which is being demanded. There is bound to be more work for them, so surely it is only common sense to seek their views. There has already been anxiety and misgiving over the joint manpower watch figures. The TUC want to be involved in getting the facts before the electorate, but they want to be sure that the electorate is getting sophisticated information that reveals the level and above all the quality of service provided. The workload on local authority staff is bound to increase because of the demands of this clause and jobs may well be at risk.
It seems to us to be good sense and good industrial practice to have consultations with the unions involved written
118
into the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Thorneycroft, was reported yesterday as saying that the policy of the Cabinet is one of moderation and conciliation, I hope the Minister will be prepared to accept the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: Following the Government's original consultation document issued last October, a substantial number of organisations and individuals contributed views, including NALGO. Since then a draft code of practice has been prepared, upon which we invited the comments of selected bodies, including the trade unions, while it was still at the formative stage. The unions' initial comments were constructive and we await any further views they may have on the draft code of practice and consultation document which has now been published, and on the issue of short period indicators of performance, which were discussed in a meeting between the Secretary of State and local government union representatives. The TUC have also been invited by my right honourable friend to meet with officials of his Department to discuss possible arrangements for the publication of information, and I understand this meeting is to take place at the end of this week.
As has been said all along, we intend to seek and take full account of the views not only of the trade unions but also of the many other organisations which have sent us their views—some of the submissions being very substantial. There are a great many individuals and bodies that have views of substance on this matter, but it would not be appropriate to mention the interest groups in general nor to single out the particular interest group in this statute, nor is it necessary to do so.
As the noble Baroness said, good industrial relations are an aim of this Government and everything possible is being done to achieve them. One of the ways in which it is being done is by consulting the unions, as I have already said. We do not think that it would further that in any way to write any particular union or set of unions into the Bill. Accordingly, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment; but if she is not prepared to do that, I would invite your Lordships not to accept it.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I listened with considerable interest to what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate had to say about the draft codes of practice that had been submitted to this or that person, but he will not be surprised if I ask him what has happened in Scotland. Originally when this Bill was produced, so far as I know, Scottish local authorities were not in the Bill; so I presume that there were no discussions with interested bodies other than the so far unfruitful discussions with the Scottish local authorities. Has the Secretary of State for Scotland produced any codes of practice and discussed them with the trade unions in Scotland, or does he intend to do so? If I had known about the amendments which were eventually tabled, not only would I have supported this amendment but probably I should have added the Scottish Trade Union Congress as well.
Before we take leave of Clause 2 in the Committee stage it may well help me in respect of what I say at that particular point if I can get this information from the Lord Advocate. What has happened in Scotland in regard to this? Have the two codes of practice that have been mentioned in relation to England and Wales actually been produced?
The other point that worries me in relation to this amendment and from what the Government have said through the Lord Advocate, as I understand it the concern of the Government in Scotland is on the question of manpower; that there has been a very considerable increase in manpower in the Scottish local authority field. I think it is about 4,000 since the Government took office. Of course the figure has also been used that in the past two and a half years it has been very much higher than that, and for two and a half years before that probably as well. So here the Government say that they are going to make the local authorities produce information about manpower for the purposes of getting public pressure upon them to reduce manpower, as the Government want. I cannot think of any sphere of Government that is going to be of more concern to the people employed than this kind of activity. It is absolutely essential that if the Government are going to be successful in this they must get it right with the
120
local authorities and with the trade unions.
So far as I can understand from the position that the Secretary of State for Scotland has got himself into, he has been forced into the position of discarding any question of a voluntary acceptance of codes of practice, and once one asks for power to enforce it is whimsical to suggest that it is voluntary. This becomes very important from the point of view of the people employed and those who represent them in the trade unions. I sincerely hope that the Lord Advocate can enlighten me as to what has happened in Scotland in respect of these discussions and what he intends to happen. Certainly I want that information before we can withdraw this amendment.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I had understood that the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, was supporting this amendment; I think it is down in his name. I had explained earlier that the Secretary of State for Scotland had consulted with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) in the hope of reaching agreement on arrangements for the publication of this information, which would not require any code except the agreement. Unfortunately, so far at least, it has not been possible to reach complete agreement in relation to these matters. That does not at all mean that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not hoping still that a voluntary code will be possible, and that is what he certainly does hope for. It is at that stage, the stage of issuing a draft code, that consultation would normally arise. That is certainly what would happen here.
No draft code has yet been published in Scotland, but certainly consultation on the draft code, if and when it is published, will take place with all interested parties, including the trade unions. I understand that the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Scottish Trades Union Congress would expect shortly to have a meeting about this very matter. I think the noble Lord can be assured that the Secretary of State for Scotland has no intention of going ahead here without very adequate consultation, and as I said earlier his real objective is to try to reach agreement without the necessity for these powers. It is only because it appeared

121
that this agreement may not be obtainable that these powers are sought. It does not by any means rule out voluntary action on the basis of these powers.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: That means that there have been no codes of practice because there has not been agreement. If there is agreement there will be consultation, and if there is no agreement there also will be consultation?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: Yes.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I thank the noble Lord.
Baroness DAVID: I am not entirely satisfied with the Lord Advocate's answer, but he has said that negotiations are still going on and there will be another meeting at the end of this week. He said something that seemed to me rather strange, that it is bad to single out special groups to consult. I am not sure that I got the phrase exactly right. It seems to me that the unions representing the work force of local government are a very special group and they certainly should be consulted very specially.
I should like to read in Hansard what the noble Lord actually said. As negotiations are still going on and there are to be further consultations I will with the agreement of my noble friend, withdraw the amendment at the moment, but I certainly reserve the right to come back with a similar amendment or something fairly similar at Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 26A and 27 not moved.]
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 4, line 31, leave out subsection (16).
The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is also necessary for the application of this clause to Scotland. It deletes the subsection that said it did not apply to Scotland in effect.
On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
8.15 p.m.
Baroness DAVID: I have already said that the new Clause 2 is an improvement on the original one, but there are still reservations. I think everyone will agree that to provide more and more intelligible information to ratepayers about their local authority's expenditure and services is admirable and to be desired. What local authorities and those who work for them are anxious about is the purpose that the information demanded by the Secretary of State will be put to. The Secretary of State himself said, speaking to the Society of Local Chief Executives:
"I shall seek to promote comparison tests, and, dare I say it, competition between authorities".
It seems to me no wonder they are anxious. There is naturally suspicion that figures will be used to equate undermanning and efficiency. Is the Secretary of State trying to get council against council? That is what it would seem to be.
I think it is generally agreed that implementation of the code of practice will increase the workload on the staff. Even the draft code says in paragraph 1.3:
"The code draws together information which is generally available in most local authorities at present. Presentation in a new form may cause some problems and costs".
Some £3 to £4 million has been suggested nationally. If extra staff are needed to produce this information and the explanations that must go with it, will the Government make provision for the extra costs involved? Printing alone will be very expensive. I understand that the GLC thinks it may have to produce some 3 million copies of whatever document it may be.
The comparison of key service indicators asked for in paragraph 3.3.5 and the annex are intended, presumably, to be indicators of performance, but are in fact crude unit cost statistics which cannot possibly reflect performance. They cannot in themselves tell us anything about efficiency or effectiveness. Low unit costs may not be due to efficiency but to a low level of service, high unit costs to local circumstances or local policies. A high proportion of rural schools may raise unit costs, and one can easily think of other examples. So this whole exercise could be totally misleading and unfair and not take into account a council's

123
policies or, more particularly, the quality of service it is providing. How does the Minister propose to deal with this?
The Secretary of State is still keeping to himself the power to make regulations giving him considerable control over local authorities. There is anxiety over this, which of course can be seen from the manuscript amendment we had this afternoon and also from Lord Sandford's amendment which put the ADC's anxieties. Will there be consultations about these regultations? Is it possible that the Secretary of State may demand more frequent information, perhaps quarterly or even more frequently, on a range of topics? This again is what the local authority associations are very anxious about. We should like to have some statement from the Minister when he replies. Might not the Secretary of State show some generosity and consideration to local authorities, and not force them to extra expense and work immediately but perhaps postpone the deadline until 1982 rather than 1981?
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: I am pursuing the same point I had before, as to why at this late date we should have Scotland introduced into this clause. I do not think it is good enough for the Secretary of State, or the Lord Advocate on behalf of the Secretary of State, to say, "Well, we had hoped to get voluntary agreement as a result of our discussions with the local authorities". This makes a bit of a mockery of the claim that the whole thing is voluntary. If he had got voluntary agreement there would be no need for legislation at all. So he is now taking the fall-back position of inviting us into this position where the duty is laid upon the Secretary of State, and thereafter having to issue a code of practice in relation to publication of information. Once you get to that particular point and appreciate that it is the duty of the Secretary of State, then the Secretary of State is going to have his way. The duty is laid upon him whether he reaches agreement with local authorities or not and that includes police authorities, fire authorities and the ILEA in this part of the world.
Let us consider exactly the type of matter that must be included, irrespective of the generality of the code of practice
124
—for example, when it is to be published and the form of publication. All that will be in the hands, eventually, of the Secretary of State. There is the question of how the public are to be informed and, if dealing with costs, how those costs are to be calculated. All of that is in the hands of the Secretary of State.
We have already been informed that the Secretary of State for Scotland has not reached agreement with the Scottish local authorities. The reason for that concerns the question of manpower. As I understand it, the justification which the Secretary of State is to use is that he wants publicity given to that kind of information and, of course, that information must be set out in the way in which he lays down because he is the one who publishes the code of practice. The duty is upon him, not the local authority, as regards how the costs are to be laid out and how the information is to be laid out.
One must appreciate that the question at issue in Scotland is manpower. The Government have ways and means of getting all the information they want. If I put a Question down in another place, I used to be able to get all the information that I wanted about manpower. Fairly recently we passed a Bill about Scottish housing which included clauses which put a statutory obligation on local authorities to provide information. So here we are gathering up in this fairly general measure something which is evidently not presently available to the public. It is the Government who will decide the items of information and how they will be laid out. Anyone who thinks that this is voluntary had better read the clause. The Secretary of State says quite clearly that he wants the power and he wants also the power to enforce it. There is nothing voluntary about that. When in the same breath we are talking about the freedom for local authorities and inviting local authorities to accept that freedom, we had better look closely at the small print.
As I understand it there has been an increase in the number of people employed in Scottish local authorities— 4,000 since the Government came into power. That is totally against everything that the Government have proclaimed—they said that they would make the local authorities publish information so that a public searchlight will be upon them to

125
justify their policies. Will the Government tell me that if information is given by a local authority in respect of this aspect, and information also justifying it, in other words a local authority goes beyond information into argument—and there have been complaints about this previously in Scotland as regards local authorities—the Government will act and say that the local authority is not complying with the code of practice that has been put out by the Secretary of State?
We do not know very much about this code of practice; we do not know anything about it in Scotland. We do not have one, not even a draft which has been mentioned in respect of England. So we are rather suspicious and Scottish local authorities have enormous inbuilt suspicion of St. Andrew's House, no matter who is there. We get wild speeches made about how the Government will do this, that and the next thing, and I certainly know as an ex-Secretary of State that they do not have the power to do it and are taking new powers. I think that the Government should be fairly clear about this.
There is no reason in the world as I see it why Scotland should not have been in this from the start. There is nothing new in what has happened or in saying that they should come in. It has just been a re-think, "Ah, here is something else. We shall bring the searchlight of public opinion on this and get the public to force the local authority to cut services". They do not know very much about the Scottish people as regards that matter and I do not think that they even read the last local authority election results. So, please, what are the Government after? If they are to force local authorities what are the ultimate penalties? There is nothing in the clause about it, but I can assure your Lordships that these words have been used by the Government. The duty is not on the local authority; the duty in the first instance, the only duty here, is on the Secretary of State to produce, and then he produces subordinate legislation placing a duty upon the local authority. It is not the right way to go about the matter and I think the Government should come clean.
Noble Lords in England have had an opportunity to study this because it has been in the Bill. But until the amend-
126
ment was passed, this provision has not been applicable to Scotland at all. So I hope that I shall have some information from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate in respect of the real reason why we are coming in at present. Secondly, will he give further information about the disagreements between the Secretary of State and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities in respect of the codes of practice? Thirdly, what default powers is he going to use in respect of the regulations outlined in, I think, subsection (10)?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: The purpose of Clause 2 is that local authorities, and the other bodies to which the clause applies, will give information about their activities to those who require that information in order to assess those activities. There is no intention of requiring information in order that the local authorities may cut services, as the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, put it. The purpose of this clause is that local authorities should provide the basic information about their functions to ratepayers, councillors, local interest groups and the community at large, as appropriate. I must say that I do not see any reason why that principle should not be as equally applicable in Scotland as it is in England and Wales. If the Scottish local authorities, by universal agreement, were prepared to do that, well and good. But at least at present, it looks as though that may not be possible to achieve by agreement.
What we are trying to do in Clause 2 is to bring forward the best possible publication of information through the active co-operation of local authorities themselves and the various professional organisations that have an interest in this field. That is why the Bill puts its principal emphasis on the idea of a code or codes of practice to be adapted by individual local authorities to suit local priorities and circumstances.
Our approach to the preparation of such codes has also been one of enlisting support and advice from those with relevant experience, and I have already illustrated that. Taking advice in that way we hope will enable us to produce codes which reflect the best practice in local government and which allow for local flexibility in their operation. We

127
hope, in that way, to avoid imposing on local government any unnecessary administrative burden, about which there has been proper concern.
The costs involved in dealing with this matter would be subject to the ordinary discussions that take place about local authority expenditure. But our belief is that intelligent comparisons of information of this kind as between one local authority and another will enable local authorities to learn from one another. We cannot think that there is anything in this which local authorities need fear. I cannot see any reason, for example, why the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, should say that the local authorities in Scotland are suspicious of this. All that we are asking in this clause is that information, which is of value to those who have an interest in the local authority, should be made available to them and should be published to them.
On the enforcement of the codes, as I have already said, the intention in Scotland and in England and Wales is that the matter should be entirely voluntary by reference to codes, but there is power, if the practice does not appear to conform to the codes, to embody provisions of the codes in regulations which would then be enforceable in the ordinary way in which regulations are enforced both North and South of the Scottish Border.
Some reference was made to wild speeches. I am not sure that I can accept that characterisation as affecting any speech of mine. I do not really know that I can deal with that more than to say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is concerned that this kind of information, which is the subject of this clause, should be available to the public in Scotland and the various sections of it just as it will be South of the Border. Accordingly, I would invite your Lordships to take the view that this clause is a very valuable improvement to the existing legislative structure, and I am glad to accept the compliment that the noble Baroness, Lady David, paid to its recent improvements.
Lord ROSS of MARNOCK: Can the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate just answer the simple question: why was it not made applicable to Scotland right from the start?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I think that I have said this once or twice, but I have no real objection to repeating it. It was thought that it would be unnecessary to have recourse to this clause at that stage because it was hoped that we would be able to reach this particular position by agreement with all the local authorities. Unfortunately, so far that has not proved possible, and that is why we are going along this particular road.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
8.32 p.m.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN moved Amendment No. 29:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
("Power to direct other bodies to publish information
"—(1) The relevant Minister may direct that a body or description of bodies specified in any of the paragraphs of subsection (4) below shall publish information about the discharge of their functions and other matters (including forecasts) which he considers to be related.
(2) Different directions may be given to bodies of the same description in different areas.
(3) A direction under this section may specify—

(a) the manner in which information is to be published;

(b) the occasions on which such publication is to be made; and

(c) the form which such publication is to take.

(4) The bodies and descriptions of bodies mentioned in subsection (1) above are—

(a) development corporations established under the New Towns Act 1965 or the New Towns (Scotland) Act 1968;

(b) the Commission for the New Towns;

(c) water authorities;

(d) urban development corporations within the meaning of Part XVI of this Act;

(e) Passenger Transport Executive established by orders under section 9 of the Transport Act 1968 or section 202 of the Local Government Act 1972;

(f) the London Transport Executive; and

(g) district councils carrying on road passenger transport undertakings.

(5) In this section "the relevant Minister" means in relation—

(a) to the description of bodies mentioned in subsection (4)(e) above, in the application of that paragraph to England and Wales;

(b) to the London Transport Executive; and

(c) to the description of bodies mentioned in subsection (4)(g) above,

129
the Minister of Transport.

(6) Subject to subsection (5) above, in this section "the relevant Minister" means the Secretary of State.
(7) A direction given to a district council under this section may only relate to its road passenger transport undertaking.").
The noble and learned Lord said: The purpose of this new clause is to apply the principles of Clause 2 a little more widely. At an early stage in our consideration of this measure it became clear that the underlying principles, while applying in a particular way to local authorities, which are elected by their own electorate, were also applicable to a wide range of other types of organisation throughout the public sector.
The Government have therefore taken the opportunity to review very broadly the scope for improvement in existing practices in the public sector, and the measures which might be necessary to bring the various bodies up to the standards of the best in the public and private sectors. We now propose to ensure that the necessary powers exist to achieve our widely-supported objective throughout a wider range of bodies in the public sector. In the course of our review it became clear that, for many public bodies, adequate powers already exist to achieve what is desired. But there remains a collection of bodies—as listed in the new clause and in the amendment which sought to extend Clause 2(1)—where we are doubtful that this would be possible under existing legislation.
It therefore seems right that, having consulted the various individual organisations concerned, we should take such broad enabling powers as this new clause seeks to provide. In consultation with those bodies it also became clear that the approach provided for in Clause 2—that of a code of practice supported as necessary by statutory regulations—was not appropriate for some types of body, and that it would be more appropriate to achieve the objective by taking powers to issue general directions about their publication of information. This clause accordingly seeks to provide a power for the relevant Minister to direct the bodies concerned as to the type and manner of publication they should produce about the discharge of their functions and related matters.
I hope that the Committee will assent to the inclusion of this new clause in the Bill, thus reflecting the wishes of many of those who have responded to the Government's consultation documents on this issue. I should like to emphasise at this stage that this new clause does no more than confer enabling powers in order that the Government may consider further, in consultation with the bodies concerned and other interested parties, what further arrangements may be needed to improve upon their present practices concerning the provision of information to the public. I beg to move.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Alport): We now come to Amendment No. 29A as an amendment to Amendment No. 29.
Lord SANDFORD Lord SANDFORD moved as an amendment to Amendment No. 29, Amendment No. 29A:
In subsection (4) leave out paragraph (g).
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 29A and at the same time to speak to Amendment No. 29B which also is an amendment to Amendment No. 29. The first point I should like to make to my noble and learned friend is that I welcome the general intention behind the new clause that he has just moved. It is certainly appropriate to introduce in respect of the bodies listed in that new clause the requirement to publish information to the public which is just as much needed by them and of interest to them as any of the functions of local authorities.
However, the need for my amendments is to avoid the district councils being drawn into this clause as they are already subject to the requirement to publish information under Clause 2. In my view it is not appropriate that they should be required to publish information under one clause and then be required under a different clause, grouped with a different list of bodies, to publish similar information in respect of their functions. The district councils in respect of their transport undertakings are still operating as democratically elected bodies and, therefore, are subject to the voluntary code appropriate to other similarly democratically elected local government bodies. The different voluntary codes applicable to bodies such as the water authorities and

131
the urban development corporations, which are not democratically-elected and are not local authorities, are not appropriate to district councils.
My noble and learned friend may say that this new clause is needed to give the Minister of Transport as opposed to the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment powers to secure by means of these codes the information that he thinks the public require in respect of transport undertakings run by local authorities, and I can understand him wanting to make that point. But, if that is so, there has to be similar provision for the Secretary of State for Education to require information to be published by, say, the county councils in respect of the way in which they discharge their educational functions; or provision for the Secretary of State for the Department of Health and Social Security to require voluntary codes to be produced in respect of which county councils should publish the way in which they are discharging their functions under health legislation.
However, it is not appropriate to include in this clause, which is primarily designed to deal with non-elected bodies which are not local authorities, information in respect of their transport undertakings just for the Minister of Transport. I hope that my noble and learned friend will be able to take those thoughts away with him and consider them carefully before the next stage. If he can undertake to do that I shall in the meantime be happy to withdraw these amendments.
Lord MORRIS: As I see it, "The bodies and descriptions of bodies" mentioned in the new clause proposed by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern are those aspects of local authorities which are fundamentally running a business, and it is for this reason that the road passenger transport undertakings of local authorities should, in my untutored view, certainly be encapsulated in this particular new clause. I do not think that the analogy drawn by my noble friend Lord Sandford of an education service is quite in the same category as that of running, a transport service, which in my view is very much more in the nature of a business.
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: I recognise fully the concern that my noble friend Lord Sandford has in tabling this amendment to our proposed new clause that we should try to consider the activities of local authorities as one. But, as I have asked the Committee to accept, it will be appropriate in our view for the Minister of Transport, or the Secretary of State for Scotland in Scotland, to have the power to direct other public sector transport undertakings as to the information they should publish, without of course detracting from the intention to hold full consultations before doing so.
It was our view therefore that where a district council has a road transport undertaking—and that is a somewhat special matter; it is not a general power of district councils, it is a special power of some—it should be accountable to the public in exactly the same way and to the same degree as any other public sector transport undertaking. I mentioned earlier that one of the purposes of this is to make reasonably straightforward comparisons between one authority and another in the case of local authorities, and one public sector transport undertaking and another in the case of these.
While wishing therefore to follow the general code of practice approach for the generality of local authority activities—and health and education, as my noble friend mentioned, are of that character; general functions that certain tiers of local authority generally carry out—it is right in our view that all transport activities, which are rather special, should be treated in a common fashion. Accordingly, it is necessary that there should be a special provision for district councils carrying on a transport undertaking of this sort, and, as he pointed out, the Minister of Transport will be the appropriate Minister to exercise this particular function. Of course, as he envisaged, that is another reason for having this clause in this particular form. In the light of these explanations, which are very much in line with what my noble friend Lord Morris said, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw this amendment.
Lord SANDFORD: I shall certainly withdraw it and consider what my noble and learned friend has said. At the

133
moment I think it is more important that all democratically elected local authorities should be treated on a par in respect of all their functions, even if some of them are commercial and some of them are public services. I think that is more desirable than that the district council which happens to run the bus undertaking should be put into the same category as other bodies like PTEs, which, although they are running transport undertakings, are not by any stretch of the imagination on a par with local authorities. I shall consider what my noble and learned friend has said, and meanwhile beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness DAVID: I should like to make one comment on this new clause. It seems to me odd, as it is now nearly a year since the first Local Government Bill was introduced in this House, that the Government have really had to do this rush job and produce all these new clauses, amendments and so on at this stage. It seems to me incompetent and really very difficult for the Committee to have all these new things to look at at the last minute.
Amendment to the amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 29B not moved.]
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: There is one question I have to ask the noble Lord before we part with this new clause. Subsection (3) of this new clause empowers a Minister to give directions which specify,
"the manner in which information is to be published … the occasions on which such publication is to be made; and … the form which such publication is to take".
It will occur to some of us that this is going to involve some extra cost. Can the Minister inform us whether there has been any estimate made of the extra costs likely to be involved as a result of the giving of these directions and of compliance with them?
Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN: Of course the precise form that the direction will take would affect the cost, and that is still a matter to be considered. I think I can assure the noble Lord that the question of cost will not be lost sight of in considering the form of the
134
directions to be made. Obviously what we shall be trying to achieve is the best possible value for money—in other words, getting the information which is necessary at the smallest possible cost—and the forms will take account of that.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Regulation of works contracts]:
On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
8.46 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: Before we part with this particular clause it would be a good thing if the Minister were to explain just how these various measures under this particular part of the Bill have developed since they were first considered. As I understand it, when the consultations concerning this part of the Bill originally took place they were on the footing, which I think was agreed by all parties, that it was desirable that the particular accounting requirements for local authorities should be as comprehensive as possible, should if possible again be standardised, and should be aimed at providing the maximum amount of necessary information which it was thought on all sides that the public, and all those others interested, should actually have.
It now appears, and it will appear when we come to consider later clauses in this particular part of the Bill, that the intention merely to provide for a standardised form of accounts of a more informative nature has progressively degenerated into a desire by Ministers to control the activities under this particular part of the Bill, rather than provide information. I should like to ask the noble Lord, as a prelude to the discussions which we shall shortly be having on other clauses of this Bill, whether he can explain to the Committee when and why it was suddenly decided that this particular part of the Bill should be used not as a means of information and regulation of forms of accounts and control of accounts but so that the Minister could virtually do what he wanted with this particular aspect of local authority activities. If he could explain why this transition took place and how it took place it would form a useful

135
background to the discussions which we shall be having on the remainder of the clauses in this section.
Lord BELLWIN: This clause—and that is what we are talking about now—is a purely technical one which makes transitional arrangements to smooth the changeover to the new tendering and accounting systems. It deals with those relatively rare situations where authorities have entered into long-term maintenance contracts with other bodies using their existing statutory powers. The value of some of these agreements may well be such that, under the new regulations to be made under Clause 5 to control the entry into works contracts, they would have to be put out to competition.
The present clause gives the authorities concerned 12 months to sort things out and put them out to tender if necessary, otherwise the agreements would lapse even if their original term had not run. Another new requirement which works' authorities will have to consider is the obligation imposed by Clause 13 that they should earn a return on their capital. They will want to ensure that their works' contracts operations make a proper contribution to that return, and they will therefore not want to find themselves locked into agreements whose terms do not allow them to make the changes they will need.
This clause gives them the key to unlock these shackles, and will allow them to renegotiate appropriate charging arrangements. Without this clause there would be a danger of anomaly and confusion. That is exactly what this clause is about. It is not about anything else. As the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, so rightly says, we are about to embark upon a discussion of much detail in the amendments that are tabled, and as we come to them we shall cover the points which the amendments raise.
Viscount SIMON: Can the noble Lord explain what happens if the circumstances arise that are described at the end of subsection (3)? Once 12 months have expired it will cease to be lawful for the maintenance agreement to be carried out. What happens to the contractor who is under contract to do something? No doubt he has purchased plant and engaged
136
workpeople, and so on. Does he get any compensation because his contract has been brought to an end?
Lord BELLWIN: In fact, there is no contractor. The local authority is the contractor. As I said, the clause is a technical one and it is to deal with the transitional arrangements. But in a situation such as the noble Viscount describes, there is no contractor as such. It would be the local authority.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 [Limitations on power to enter into works contracts]:
8.52 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN Lord BELLWIN moved Amendment No. 30:
Page 6, leave out lines 39 to 43.
The noble Lord said: This amendment merely removes an error which remains after other changes were made to this clause in another place. As the clause stands, subsection (4)(a) would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations which could remove entirely the requirement that direct labour organisations should be subject to competition before undertaking contract work, and substitute conditions of quite a different sort. This is far too wide an Executive discretion, which the Government do not want to take, and which I have no doubt the Committee does not want to give them. I beg to move.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 7, line 15, leave out from ("to") to end of line 16 and insert ("an affirmative resolution by both Houses of Parliament").
The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 31 it may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendment No. 38, as the same principle is involved. The regulations under Clauses 5 and 7 are very important. Amendment No. 31 relates to works contracts. The regulations which the Secretary of State would be empowered to table would prescribe the number and value of works contracts; certain conditions to be observed, including the acceptance of tenders; specify the various conditions to be laid down; specify the

137
descriptions of contracts and, if desired, vary the number of persons from whom tenders must be obtained.
Amendment No. 38 relates to functional works, and here again the regulations would lay down descriptions of various types of work which may be undertaken, conditions to be observed before a local authority may undertake functional works, and, again, vary the number of persons from whom tenders may be obtained. It would also specify the financial limits of work to be kept under separate heading.
The regulations may also make different provisions in relation to different contracts and different descriptions of contracts. These are all important matters affecting the operation of direct labour organisations and the work of local authorities. They are important matters which are left to be determined by the Secretary of State. In our view it is not sufficient for these regulations to be dealt with only by the annulment procedure. To ensure full and adequate consideration of these very important matters the regulations should require the Affirmative Resolution of both Houses, and that is the purpose of the two amendments.
Lord BELLWIN: The Committee will need to remember what sort of regulations will be made under this clause. There will, first of all, be the regulations made under subsection (2) to specify the descriptions of work which must first be subjected to competition before being undertaken by direct labour. These descriptions will be expressed essentially in terms of monetary limits on the size of construction or maintenance projects. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State stated in another place what, in the first instance, those limits would be. He also promised, and I repeat that pledge now, that the thresholds would be updated to take account of changing building prices. So the regulations will need to be re-made at intervals simply to preserve the status quo.
The other regulation-making power under Clause 5 is contained in subsection (4) and is even more technical. We do not expect it ever to be used, but it is there to provide the opportunity to change the minimum number of invitations to be issued to outside contractors
138
to compete against an authority's direct labour organisation. At present, the number stands at three, and we believe it practical and sufficient. If experience suggests it is either too unrealistically high—and I cannot believe that such a modest number can be so—or ineffectively low—and I think competition from three contractors should stretch most DLOs quite satisfactorily—then the number can be changed. But we do not anticipate that a change will be necesssary.
We do not think that it is necessary to take up scarce parliamentary time to consider such relatively insignificant adjustments to the system whose structure is clearly set out here before us, and whose details have been the subject of full consultation and discussion inside and outside these walls. The Negative Resolution procedure should give Members either here or in another place adequate opportunity to investigate any changes which are not merely routine or are in any way out of the ordinary. I wonder whether, with that information and that view, the noble Lord perhaps may feel able not to pursue his amendment.
Lord SANDFORD: Before the noble Lord responds may I just comment and perhaps make a preliminary remark? I should like, if I may, to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, to the wicket, as it were, and express my admiration for him. I used to be the Minister holding his appointment at the Department of the Environment and had to do most of the work on the Front Bench myself. We have been here for six hours now, and until a moment or two ago he had managed to decentralise everything on the Ministry of Agriculture, the Home Office and the Lord Advocate, which I think was a wonderful performance. I should like to congratulate him on it.
I should like to go on to say that the Association of District Councils welcomes very much the concessions that the Government have made at this point in the Bill. En the absence of my noble friend Lord Ridley I am pretty sure that I can say the same thing in respect of the county councils. We think the Government have now got it more or less right, and this part of the Bill at any rate meets very much with our approval.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: I want to ask the noble Lord, to whom I offer the same felicitations as those which he has offered to his noble friend, whether even at this stage he could not reconsider this. We are considering it out of the context of the remainder of the Bill. If we consider this Bill as a whole in order to get its total context we find that, out of the total number of clauses, 58 give the Minister power to make regulations in over 100 instances. Most of them are subject to the annulment procedure. Incidentally, they also give him, in the case of 29 clauses, powers in 58 instances to make direct directions without regulation.
Surely in these two particular instances, which are of considerable importance, and in view of the fact that all the other regulations of a myriad character reflect the mania for power of his right honourable friend in another place, he could concede that these two items which have deen dealt with by my noble friend Lord Underhill could be an isolated exception—a shining example even—and, to show willing and goodwill, he could adopt the Affirmative Resolution procedure. Will the Minister please reconsider the matter?
9 p.m.
Lord BELLWIN: That was quite a series of requests, but before responding to them I must thank my noble friend Lord Sandford, who I trust has taken careful note of the art of delegation and how it works. I must also thank my noble friends who have been helpful so far, and I am sure I shall be looking for help from them again before this Committee stage is through. I wish the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, had not talked about mania for power. I should have thought that this week, following so closely on what happened last week, that would have been the last thing noble Lords opposite would have wanted to talk about. In any event, this is not a matter of tremendous moment.
It would not be difficult for me to say, "Very well, let us adopt the Affirmative Resolution procedure". I remember that when we were discussing the Housing Bill certain matters of great importance were raised by some noble Lords opposite and some of my noble friends, who stressed
140
why there were occasions when the Affirmative Resolution procedure was the proper one to adopt. We felt then that the issues in question were right for that, and accordingly we acquiesced. But in this case we are really talking about whether three or four or two invitations should go out to people to contract. To go through the whole Affirmative Resolution procedure in both Houses for that sort of thing seems to me—with my relative inexperience, which I freely acknowledge, of these matters—not to be necessary. I shall listen to what others have to say on the subject. Certainly there will be occasions when it will be the right procedure, but surely this cannot be an occasion of such great moment. Unless noble Lords in all parts of the Committee feel very strongly about it, I suggest we leave matters as proposed in the Bill.
Lord UNDERHILL: The Minister is always persuasive and plausible, but to dismiss what I said by saying it is only a question whether three or four or fewer persons are contacted does not cover the point. The two clauses deal with far more than that. The one on works contracts contains a limitation on powers to enter into works contracts, and the Secretary of State has power to lay down conditions; and the conditions are what we believe this House should thoroughly discuss, something which cannot be done by the annulment procedure. I will not weary the Committee, but if one looks at Clause 7, dealing with functional work, one sees that we are not dealing with minor matters. It concerns whether a local authority shall carry out functional work if certain conditions are not observed. That is a matter of great importance. In view of the adamant attitude of the Minister, however pleasant and plausible he may be, I will not divide the Committee, but I feel the matter should be determined by a Negative vote.
Lord MISHCON: The Minister generously said that if he found on all sides of the Committee a request that this should be altered to an Affirmative Resolution, he would lend his usually willing and courteous ear to that plea, and in that context I have two points to make, the first one of principle. Where one takes away from a democratically elected body

141
a power they otherwise had and one does it by legislation—it may be perfectly proper to do it—is there not then a great onus on those who favour a democratic way of life not to rob the only other democratic tier of government of considering the matter and doing it by Affirmative Resolution, instead of what many of us know to be the possibility of a slip through method which is the Negative Resolution? I think that point would appeal to noble Lords in all parts of the Committee because, despite the Minister's subtle reference to the happenings of last week, I cannot see any political content in the point; it is a point raised by those who like to see democratic government carried out democratically.
Secondly, if the Committee decides, in view of the Minister's statement as to what he proposes to do on this occasion—and possibly we do not have to leave it until Report—that this should continue to be a Negative Resolution because it is deemed to be technical (I agree with my noble friend Lord Underhill that this would appear to be far from technical), may we have the Minister's clear assurance that where your Lordships' House is satisfied on other clauses of the Bill that it is not solely a technical matter which is at stake, he will readily assent, if that be proved, to the idea of an Affirmative Resolution even though a Negative Resolution is proposed at the moment?
Lord RENTON: It may help noble Lords opposite if I were briefly to make two points. First, the Negative Resolution is not just a slip through method. Experience in both Houses has shown that in deciding whether there should be a Prayer against a Negative Resolution, Members on both sides of both Houses have to apply their minds to the matter much more than they do in the case where there is merely an Affirmative Resolution tabled by the Government. Thus, the Negative Resolution is a democratic process just as much in some ways as is an Affirmative Resolution. But there is an even greater difficulty about having too many requirements for Affirmative Resolutions written into the statute book.
There are so many requirements already, covering so many different kinds of circumstances (some more important than others, I grant) that in another place—
142
and this applies much more there than it does in your Lordships' House—the time for considering these Affirmative Resolutions is often difficult to find, especially in certain stages of a Session. Therefore, I say with respect to my noble friends that they are right to be chary of adding to the many, many occasions when Parliament has to consider Affirmative Resolutions.
Lord BELLWIN: I am deeply grateful to my noble friend for that. The calls on parliamentary time are indeed of major importance and I did know that that was a very important factor in this issue. I certainly could not give to the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, the kind of general undertaking he would ask for, but we will take this away and consider it. Again, unless I can see in another way on more careful study the evidence to the contrary, I would not feel inclined to change, not least—in fact, most of all—for the reasons which my noble friend Lord Renton gave. Nevertheless, I have listened to what has been said and we shall consider it.
Lord UNDERHILL: I am grateful to the Minister and, in view of the assurance given, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. May I say also that this will give us the opportunity before the Report stage to compare the importance of these particular clauses with others in which the Government are asking for Affirmative Resolutions.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Regulation of functional work]:
9.10 p.m.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL Baroness FISHER of REDNAL moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 8, line 26, at end insert—
("( ) No regulations made under this part of this Act shall in respect of works of maintenance require a local authority or a development body to invite offers under subsection 4 of this section in respect of any amount of such works of maintenance where the value of the works is between £10,000 and £50,000, which exceeds 10 per cent. of the total estimated value of such works to be undertaken by, for or on behalf of that local authority or a development body, in any financial year.").
The noble Baroness said: With your Lordships' permission, I shall be moving

143
this amendment in place of the noble Baroness, Lady Denington. I think it is important that we on this side of the Committee let the Government know that we see that they are not attempting to hide their general opposition to both the principles and the practices of direct labour organisations. We read into the Bill that the Government are placing every obstacle they can think of in the way of DLOs to compete for major tenders. We recognise that it is the Government's decision to try to clip the wings of the direct labour organisations.
I should like to remind your Lordships that I have a great deal of experience as a member of a direct labour organisation in the City of Birmingham—again no mean city. When I was a representative of that local authority, Birmingham, under previous local government, it was of course the largest all-purpose local authority in the whole of Great Britain. I, as a late member of the direct labour organisation in Birmingham, think it is important to remind your Lordships why so many local authorities decided to set up DLOs. If we cast our minds back, it was during the property boom and the desire of local authorities to do a great deal of work on what we call substandard properties. It was the practice in Birmingham that we felt—and this thought was not only on one side of the Chamber—there was a great deal of concern that perhaps we were being forced to accept the local price rings that were being set up in the city regarding what we would say was the medium size contracts. Here I am not taking into consideration the large contracts that were entered into for rebuilding. Therefore it was recognised that a direct labour organisation would be a check upon price rings which might be operating against the requirements of the local people, and also against the ratepayers generally.
I wanted to say that because many local authorities decided on DLOs for the reason that they had a cross check against anybody who was doing work for them. It is perhaps unfortunate that the words "direct labour" became the name of the organisation. I think that a phrase with "direct" and "labour" in it has some kind of connotation of "reds under the bed". This is rather unfortunate.
Perhaps some Members of your Lordships' Committee are more experienced than I in this matter, but I should say that practically every major company that has a large factory establishment has some degree of, or the equivalent of, a direct labour organisation. Many noble Lords sitting in this Chamber have, as directors, direct contact with large organisations and they would agree that the in-service or direct labour organisations in their particular factory establishment s are comparable with the direct labour organisation of a local authority.
I should like to draw the attention of your Lordships to the Notes on Clauses. Clause 7 is the means of ensuring that in apportioning their building and construction work authorities pit—and there I use the word that appears in the Notes—their direct labour organisations against private contractors in fair competition. I must say, as a former Member of the European Parliament, that I have never understood what fair competition was, and I do not think that any of us do; but that is one of the main planks of the EEC. However, if we are thinking about fair competition, would it not be better for the Government to consider DLOs in comparison with in-plant operations that exist in many of our large factories, and not in terms of the private sector?
We must remember that the overwhelming bulk of direct labour activity is concerned with maintenance work. The amount of work undertaken in construction and new building is infinitesimal compared to the amount of maintenance work undertaken. Perhaps the noble Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand the Government have amended their original proposal that one-third of all maintenance work should be subject to competitive tender. We would accept that that is a move in the right direction. Obviously the Government saw quite clearly the bureaucratic jungle that would have been created had they not altered their proposal.
However, the proposal for a 100 per cent. tendering in respect of contracts between £10,000 and £50,000 will still present substantial problems for local authorities. I am not suggesting that it is not important for direct labour organisations constantly to prove their competitiveness on this type of contract

145
work—that of maintenance—but I say to your Lordships' Committee that this can be achieved simply by putting out to competitive tender a proportion of the contracts, not all of them. What is proposed in the amendment regarding only 10 per cent. of the work where the value is between £10,000 and £50,000 would, in my view, be a suitable way in which to bring about competition.
Noble Lords have just been speaking about the Secretary of State and the powers that he is taking in this Bill. In the Bill there are a number of instances where the Secretary of State is attempting to arrogate to himself very wide-ranging and far-reaching powers. The idea behind the amendment is that we spell out the position quite clearly so that local authorities, the general public, everybody, will know what is required.
Once again, I repeat that the overwhelming amount of work carried out by direct labour organisations is on maintenance. Obviously the purpose of requiring a percentage of such work to be put out to tender is only in order to obtain comparison of prices. The local authority itself takes into account the service that would be given by the tenderer, the quality of the work, and the financial standing of the company. We would have said that for the purposes of a comparison of prices 10 per cent. is sufficient. We state this quite clearly so that there is no uncertainty in this area. We want it to be clear and explicit so that the Secretary of State does not have to bring it in by means of any other regulation. We want the provision to be clearly stated in the Act.
I hope that at this late hour I have not delayed the Committee for too long, and I hope, too, that the Minister will consider the amendment and will regard it as an improvement for the benefit of local authorities. This is a local government Bill, and here the word "government" has a meaning in the same way as it has in the term "national Government." The word "government" has a certain connotation. I hope therefore that the Minister will consider the amendment as an improvement to the Bill and not at all breaching any underlying philosophies of the Government.
Baroness DENINGTON: I do recommend to this Committee the very
146
reasonable speech of my friend Lady Fisher. It is plain from reading this part of the Bill—or shall I say that it seems plain to some of us on this side—that it is the Government's desire so to restrict, curtail, inhibit and weaken direct labour organisations that, in the end, they strangle them unto death. If that were to happen—and it perhaps will not happen 100 per cent.—it would be a great loss to local government and to the service that local government gives to the people through its direct labour organisation.
It is perfectly true, and it is highlighted in the Press, that from time to time there are authorities that seem occasionally to let things get quite wildly out of control. It does happen, but none of us would condone that for a moment. It is perfectly proper and right that such aberrations should be controlled. By and large, however, the authorities that run direct labour organisations up and down this country run good organisations. They do test them in the market.
My experience, as I expect most of your Lordships will know, was first of all with the old London County Council and later with the Greater London Council. My experience there was that we reported regularly to the council on how things had gone. We reported roughly annually and in full. We even said that every time our chief executive sneezed it was costed in, we were so thorough.
Occasionally our tenders were above the average and the outside contractors' were below, and they had the job. Very often, however, our tenders were a little below. They were not greatly below and perhaps some of your Lordships might say: "Why not? If there was no profit motive, they should have been well below". The reason they were not lower than they were was perfectly plain. The Council prided itself on the conditions that it provided for the men who worked in the direct labour organisations: better sick pay regulations than in private enterprise; better welfare facilities—not always, because I admit that some of the big private companies are excellent. But they were excellent conditions which brought loyalty from the men who worked for us. We had a very fine body of workpeople.
The organisation was invaluable in rehabilitation work. I understand that,

147
particularly in the North of England, it is now very difficult to get tenders at all for that kind of work; I am told so in my capacity as a member of a housing authority in the North. The direct labour organisation came to the rescue time and again (and I imagine that today it may be more often than it used to be, alas!) when the private contractor went bankrupt and the council was left with a building in build and with no builder to continue the building. When that happens it can sometimes be a very long time indeed that the building stands deteriorating at a certain stage of construction unless you have a direct labour organisation that can quickly go in and pick it up and continue with it. That is an invaluable use of a direct labour organisation.
So I would say that that is what concerns me and my friends very much indeed, and I should like to hear the Minister tell us that it is not the intention of the Government to strangle these organisations out of life and out of existence. If it is not their intention so to do, then perhaps they will listen very carefully to the points that we are making by way of amendment, because our only intention is to see that life continues for the direct labour organisations. They are not like the private builders: they have to have some certainty. A private builder takes his men on, does a job and then puts them off; but that is not the nature of a direct labour organisation, which is quite different. They have to have some continuity in their organisation. These amendments that we are moving are intended, quite frankly, to protect them and to enable them to continue. I would hope that that is the Government's intention, too, but unless they listen to us and to our amendments then I fear that many of these organisations may cease to be able to continue.
9.25 p.m.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: May I add my support to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness and so well supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Denington? In fact, I had thought to put my name down to this amendment, but by the time I got round to doing it there were already four names on it; so I want to stake out my claim to being a supporter of this amendment.
148
I do not have any deep philosophical attachment to the concept of direct labour organisations as the Ark of the Covenant of local authority activity, and I think I understand the philosophical position of the Government in putting this forward because, in areas where a direct labour organisation is carrying out functions which are within the sphere of activity of builders and civil engineering contractors, I think it is right and proper that they should be seen to be competitive with private enterprise, and also cost-effective.
But I think that in the field of maintenance work we are in a very different position, and the noble Baroness, Lady Denington, is quite right. As a member of the management committee of a housing association in the Merseyside area I can say that it is not easy—it is always very difficult, in fact—to find small contractors to do the kind of work that we are discussing today. So I imagine that on that same basis it would be equally difficult for a local authority to find people to do this work. Maintenance work varies from changing a tap to rebuilding the roof of a house, and maintenance work—and it is maintenance work that we are considering now—is a very different matter from a general civil engineering function, in which I think it is right that local authorities should be willing to compete with the private sector.
As far as I can see, in the Bill as it stands the degree of estimating required is not specified, and I think that this amendment is an excellent amendment, in that it is an attempt to limit estimating requirements to maintenance work above £50,000 except for 10 per cent. of workload. I think it is important that we should remember that maintenance work has particular problems which do not apply to the other work that direct labour organisations have. I think that 10 per cent. is sufficient to create a comparison between the kind of costs that private enterprise and the public sector would be able to give. I think, therefore, that this amendment is not a wrecking amendment but it is one which I believe should be helpful in making practical the possibility of maintenance work being done by private authority not in competition with but as an adjunct of direct labour organisations and I support the amendment.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: If I had had any doubt in my mind that I should be opposed to this amendment, it would have been removed by some of the concluding observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Denington. She said that to a private builder continuity of work did not matter—he could just dispose of his men—whereas a direct labour organisation was in a different position. In the first place, I think that that is a very unjust approach to the private builder. To suggest that private builders should quite lightheartedly have to dispose of a large number of their men because the work was going to a direct labour organisation, I think is very unfair to them; and all the more unfair when it is remembered that the organisation to which their work apparently is to be diverted is an organisation maintained by the very body which they have to finance through the payment of rates.
The noble Baroness's approach to the problems of the private builder is, I am afraid, only too characteristic of that of many Labour-controlled authorities in this country. They, like the noble Baroness, are not really very interested in the wellbeing of the private builder. On the other hand, as she indicated—and this is exactly what I dislike about the development of the direct labour organisation—a local authority which has a direct labour organisation is determined to find enough work to keep that direct labour organisation fully employed. They do not want to have to dismiss any of their men. That would cause political problems for the local authority straight away. Therefore, one is in the position that the local authority, as a body concerned with building, has an inevitable bias in favour of the direct labour organisation as against the private builder.
Your Lordships heard from the noble Baroness, herself a person with great experience in local government, a very clear indication and illustration of that particular bias. For that reason, I welcome restrictions on the development of direct labour organisations. I do not think that the provision of such organisations is a necessary function of local government at all. I think it is a doubtful proposition that local government should use money raised from all its taxpayers, including the building trade and the
150
building employers, in order to maintain an organisation which competes with them. If the noble Baroness is right in suggesting that the Bill as it stands will restrict the operation of direct labour organisations and will discourage local authorities from maintaining them, that seems to me a jolly good argument in its favour.
Lord MISHCON: I should not have risen but for two points raised in Committee this evening on the subject of direct labour. I had always understood that one of the characteristics of the Welsh, a wonderful characteristic, is that they knew their Bible. But I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, referring to the fact that direct labour had nothing to do with his Ark of the Covenant. It so happens that in the Book of Leviticus very definite regulations are set out as to the direct labour which maintain the Ark of the Covenant and, indeed, it was prohibited to go to any outside contractors for work on the Ark of the Covenant to be done. Your Lordships always welcome an intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter. This is, first, because he really commands our attention by the concise reasoning which he brings to all his remarks. It is a very precise reasoning at times and it is so precise at times because he has such a very definite point of view which does not usually bend before the wind of debate. It is just this attitude—and I say this with all deference—which bedevils local government so often. I decry those who see all merit in direct labour and no merit at all in private contractors. I equally decry those who get up to make speeches which are very sincere but which decry all out direct labour and make speeches only in favour of private contractors.
The fact is that the public wants both because, as my noble friend Lady Denington said so correctly, those of us who have been involved in these matters have found direct labour organisations so essential when it has come to maintenance work and to the type of situation—which unfortunately local authorities so often meet—of uncompleted work as a result of unreliability of some private contractors. Nobody—least of all my noble friend Lady Denington—said that there were not some private contractors who

151
behaved honourably and did efficient work. She was at pains to point out that they had privileges for their employees which are exemplary. There are others who do not do this. There are direct labour organisations that I say quite frankly are a disgrace to some local authorities. I cannot be more bold than that. There are some direct labour organisations that are a great credit to local authorities.
All that the amendment seeks to do is to temper the attitude of the Committee not, as I say, to strangle—using again the words of my noble friend Lady Denington—the local authorities in regard to their direct labour organisations, be they good or bad. It is to give the opportunity—and these amendments seek to do that—to local authorities which are honest in their dealings with direct labour organisations, and direct labour organisations which are honest and efficient in their dealings with local authorities. It is this desire to keep alive the useful that is the spirit of this amendment, and no service is done to this country, to local government in this country or the citizens who are governed by the local authorities by delivering extremist speeches against or for.
9.38 p.m.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: Would the noble Lord be good enough to answer the point which I put and which he did not answer: Whether it is a proper and essential function of local government to use revenue raised from the ratepayers, including among those ratepayers people in the building industry, in order to maintain an activity which is not a basic part of local government in competition with some of its own ratepayers?
Lord MISHCON: It is really a question of how one sees the duty of local authorities. Some of us regard the duty of local authorities to give the most efficient treatment to their citizens and their ratepayers in regard to the services which are essential to them. One of those essential services is quite obviously that of building houses, maintaining houses and doing other work of an essential nature. Some of us have found—and without anydoctrinaire views—that to have a continuous direct labour organisation efficiently man-
152
aged is of direct benefit to the ratepayers who pay for it.
Lord BELLWIN: Having listened very carefully to the most interesting speeches that have been made on this subject, it seems to me that this is where I came in many years ago. As in all discussions of this kind, there is merit in all the points that have been made, because it is not just this Government that is concerned about direct labour organisations as such. In 1975, CIPFA came out with a report which was accepted by the Labour Government as being sufficiently detailed, and which was making the kind of recommendations that they felt ought to be taken on board to improve the accountability, the accounting, the dissemination of information about what was happening and many other kinds of controls upon direct labour organisations.
I think noble Lords opposite will have to agree that it is not just one or two organisations which, on occasion, have done badly. There have been far too many for that. If one really sets out to justify the retention of a direct labour organisation, why should one be afraid of going to tender? This amendment is talking about 90 per cent. of all work not going to tender; never mind that 10 per cent. only should. It says that 90 per cent. of all the work done should not be subject to tender. But why should it not be subject to tender? If the organisation is good, then what is it afraid of? Why should it not want to know? If I had an organisation which I thought was as good as anybody's, then I should be very content for it to tender along with anybody else. That really is the crux of what we are talking about.
My noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter said that he did not want any direct labour organisations at all, for reasons which he explained very succinctly and which I need not repeat now. I must say that in my experience there have been times when a direct labour organisation has been vitally necessary for doing maintenance work. In particular, I have to say that sometimes in the winter there has been a special need when the private sector could not cope with work that had to be done and we were very glad to have an organisation. What that organisation is, what its size should be and what its function should

153
be relative to the totality of all the work that a local authority has to have done—it maintenance, building work or whatever—is what we are talking about.
I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter that the organisation should not be at all bigger than it need be. But to suggest that what the Government are putting into this Bill is, in the terms that have been used, an attempt to strangle, to clip the wings and to do everything to bring them down is not correct. The intention is to see that there is accountability—and there can be nothing wrong in that—to see that it should make a fair return on the capital that it employs on behalf of its ratepayers.
Again, I say that no good direct labour organisation will complain about that, and many local authorities, and indeed the associations, have not themselves been unduly upset about what we are trying to do. They are anxious only about the details and that is fair enough. But to suggest that 90 per cent. of the work should not go to tender cannot be justified. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher, who moved the amendment extremely eloquently, does not really expect that the Government will move further than we have already done, because in another place there was a movement away from the original position which the Government took on what was required. As in most things, it is a question of getting things about right. On this side, the suggestion is that we have not gone far enough, while on the other side the suggestion is that we have gone too far. It is always like that.
So I think we should ask the noble Baroness whether she feels able to withdraw this amendment in the light of all that has been said. There is no attack at all as such. There is only a wish on the part of the Government that direct labour organisations should be efficient, should be all the other things that I have already said and should be something which every authority which has one will be proud of having, and it will be proud when it can achieve a performance which can be justified to the ratepayers, the public at large and the people who work in the organisations.
9.45 p.m.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL: May I thank my noble friends who have
154
spoken in the debate? Some of the points which were made by my noble friend Lady Denington were taken completely out of context. The noble Lord who has just answered quite clearly accepts that direct labour organisations fulfil a service to the locality in which they are situated. They provide a very considerable service. If a gale blows through a town or a village the first thing that the inhabitants say is, "Where is the local authority? Let us get some tarpaulin on the roofs to make quite sure that people can remain in their houses all night". If there is a bad winter thousands of people find that their pipes freeze, and the first thing that people say is, "What is the local authority doing about this?" There is always some old lady or widow who is freezing to death. Everybody pins down the local authority. This is a social service which is provided in the main by direct labour organisations.
What was said by my noble friend Lady Denington was completely distorted by noble Lords. We are afraid that if too much competition takes place and direct labour organisations find that they are undercut by a lot of pirates they will go out of business; the service that they provide to local inhabitants in times of flood and freezing weather will not then be there. Where, then, does one look for the help that local residents will be asking for at times of a river flooding, or whatever?
I accept what noble Lords have said: that there are clearly different levels of efficiency in direct labour organisations. I accept also that there are different levels of efficiency between contractors who do maintenance work for local authorities. May I remind the House that the smaller type of construction firm, which would be the one most likely to try to compete for the bulk of the DLO work—that is, the repairs and the maintenance—has topped the bankruptcy list annually since reports on bankruptcy have been issued by the Department of Industry.
It is the small contractor who is in the bankruptcy lists. As my noble friend Lady Denington so clearly said, we find that the DLO has to come to the rescue of these firms. It is that type of firm which, in the main, will be competing with the DLOs, and our concern is that the competition will not be fair—that a lot of the people who will be competing will not be competing on a fair basis. Our concern

155
is that if those contracts are lost we shall then lose a DLO which is providing a service to the inhabitants on a very wide range of affairs. I have listened to what the noble Lord has said but I shall not withdraw the amendment.
9.50 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 32) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 39; Not-Contents, 119.

CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Hale, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Balogh, L.

Hatch of Lusby, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Janner, L.

Shackleton, L.

Birk, B.

Kaldor, L.

Simon, V.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stedman, B.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Collison, L.

McNair, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

David, B.[Teller]

Mishcon, L.

Stone, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Parry, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Denington, B.

Peart, L.

Taylor of Gryfe, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Underhill, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller]

White, B.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Winstanley, L.

Gregson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Fortescue, E.

O'Hagan, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Freyberg, L.

Onslow, E.

Ampthill, L.

Gainford, L.

Orkney, E.

Avon, E.

Gainsborough, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Balerno, L.

Geddes, L.

Pender, L.

Bellwin, L.

Gisborough, L.

Radnor, E.

Belstead, L.

Gowrie, E.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Bessborough, E.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Redesdale, L.

Blake, L.

Haig, E.

Renton, L.

Boardman, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Ridley, V.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Rochdale, V.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Harvington, L.

Rollo, L.

Bradford, E.

Hatherton, L.

Romney, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Henley, L.

Sackville, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Hereford, V.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Caithness, E.

Hill of Luton, L.

St. Davids, V.

Cathcart, E.

Holderness, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Chelwood, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Sandford, L.

Cockfield, L.

Jeffreys, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller]

Colville of Culross, V.

Kemsley, V.

Savile, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kimberley, E.

Selkirk, E.

Cranbrook, E.

Kintore, E.

Sharples, B.

Crathorne, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Skelmersdale, L.

Cromartie, E.

Liverpool, E.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Long, V.

Spens, L.

de Clifford, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Stanely of Alderley, L.

De La Warr, E.

Lyell, L.

Strathclyde, L.

De L'Isle, V.

McFadzean, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Sudeley, L.

Digby, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Swansea, L.

Dudley, E.

Mansfield, E.

Swinfen, L.

Dundee, E.

Margadale, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Marley, L.

Trumpington, B.

Elibank, L.

Middleton, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Elles, B.

Monk Bretton, L.

Vickers, B.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Morris, L.

Vivian, L.

Enniskillen, E.

Mottistone, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Exeter, M.

Murton of Lindisfarne, L.

Watkinson, V.

Faithfull, B.

Netherthorpe, L.

Westbury, L.

Ferrers, E.

Northchurch, B.

Windlesham, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

9.59 p.m.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL Baroness FISHER of REDNAL moved Amendment No. 33:
Page 8, line 26, at end insert—
("( ) No regulations made under this part of this Act shall in respect of general highway works or works of new construction other than general highway works require a local authority or a development body to invite offers under subsection 4 of this section, in respect of any amount of such works, which in the estimation of the authority or development body will not exceed £250,000.").
The noble Baroness said: With your Lordships' permission, I will move this amendment and I will be quite brief about it. I would draw the notice of the Committee and the Government to the fact that the tendering limits are really completely out of date. These were limits that were contained in the working party document of 1975 under the auspices of the DoE, and we have to take into consideration—and I do not use it as a party political point—that there has been inflation since that time. What we are asking for in this amendment is that the tendering limits should be fixed at a much more realistic level and coupled with indexation. That would be our point, to make the figures much more realistic.
I would wish perhaps that the Minister was sitting on this side of the Committee where the water is coming in. I am not so sure whether this is a Government direct labour contract or whether it is the work of one of the men of the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter; but the noble Lord, Lord Soames, has taken the matter into his hands. I say that as an aside. I hope that the Government will accept that there has been inflation since 1975. There have been increases in prices and this amendment is just to make the figures realistic. I beg to move.
Lord EVANS of CLAUGHTON: I hope that your Lordships will accept this amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal, said, it is merely bringing up to date the position brought about by inflation since 1975. If the Government in another place at Report stage were talking about £100,000 which was the figure suggested in 1975, it seems to me reasonable that £250,000 now would not be out of the way to cover the increase in the cost of living since then.
158
It would also, I suspect, save a considerable amount of local authority money—which I understand the Government are anxious to do—if tenders were limited to £250,000. I ask your Lordships not to believe that this is an amendment put forward by a lot of raw revolutionary reds, but has the support of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities which, until recently, was controlled by the Conservatives, and actually has a Liberal Member and is not made up of a lot of Trotskyite revolutionaries. I ask your Lordships and the Government at least to take this seriously: if £100,000 was right in 1975 then a larger figure must be right now. I ask that the amendment be accepted.
Lord BELLWIN: First, I hope that it will be many, many years, if ever, before I sit on the other side of the Committee. But, as far as this figure is concerned, I think that the Bill prescribes that there can be allowances made for inflation. The figure of £100,000 was agreed after some long discussion in another place. It was a reduced figure. One has to go back to the basic philosophy of what we were talking about when we debated the last clause. Again, I do not see why a right kind of direct labour organisation would object or should object at all. If it is good and efficient it should not mind going out to tender, especially when we are talking of contracts of this kind.
The argument that pertained to the smaller units doing maintenance work was one thing. When we start talking about the kind of money that we have here on these bigger projects, then I should have thought that it was all the more vital that there be tenders and that the limit be not so high that we limit the number. No, I think that we should have to return to the philosophical debate that we have just had on this, except that I think the case here is even stronger. I think that it should be a consolation to the noble Baroness to know that the Bill says that adjustments will be made for inflation as it goes along, and therefore the figure is not sacrosanct for all time. We could not accept this amendment for the reasons given. I fear that I can go no further with it.
Baroness FISHER of REDNAL: I do not accept what the Minister has said.

159
I do not think that there is a philosophical argument in it. I should have thought that it was a plain, straightforward figure that was being used, just as a house which cost £8,000 10 years ago now costs £18,000. I suppose that you could use a philosophical argument. The majority of people would say that that was because the cost of materials and labour and everything else had gone up. I do not think that they would use any philosophical arguments. I do not know whether the Government do so when they argue that kind of case.
So I do not accept that there is a philosophical argument. I should accept it as a straightforward financial transaction, in the same way as have we to recognise that when we fix a pension for someone what it will buy in the market in two or three years' time must be taken into consideration, but initially it was a very much lower figure that was taken into consideration and was automatically indexed. I accept what the Minister has said, that he will index it. I would simply say that I think his starting figure is too low. Having said that, I shall not pursue the amendment to a vote.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.7 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON moved Amendment No. 33A:
Page 8, line 26, at end insert—
("(c) No regulations made under this Part of this Act shall prevent a local authority from carrying out emergency works.").
The noble Lord said: I commend this amendment to the Committee. It will be observed that Clause 7(2) provides that:
"A local authority or development body may not undertake functional work of any description unless they have first prepared a written statement— (a) of the amount which they will credit to their DLO revenue account … or (b) of a method by which they intend that the amount to be so credited shall he calculated".
All that does is to say that no regulations made under this part of the Bill shall prevent a local authority from carrying out emergency work. I should not have thought that this needed much argument. I cannot believe that it would raise the
160
philosophical or ideological hackles of the noble Lord, 'Lord Boyd-Carpenter, and I certainly do not think that it would ruffle the noble Lord opposite. Let us take for example the case of the Lyndhurst tragedy of many years ago, where flood waters accumulated on the moors above and with one fell swoop formed a head of water that swept down the valley causing tremendous damage in the locality. Would it be expected that a written statement should be prepared before any kind of work of restitution or any other kind of work was carried out? I should have thought not. If the noble Lord replies that it is, of course, his intention that work of this kind should not be included, then our answer to that is that there is no harm in including it in the Bill. I commend the amendment to the Committee.
Lord BELLWIN: In fact, we have no quarrel with the purpose of this amendment, which it appears to share with Amendment No. 37. The Government have no intention of putting obstacles in the way of authorities faced with the need to undertake genuine emergency works. However, this amendment is defective and would not meet its proposed objective. There is nothing in the clause, or possible in regulations made under it, that could absolutely prevent authorities from carrying out emergency works, or a statement to that effect is not necessary. The subject of the noble Lord's concern is presumably the conditions which may be imposed on the undertaking of works by local authorities. Let me assure him that we do not intend to use the power under this clause to hamper authorities' ability to carry out emergency work.
Lord SANDFORD: Can the noble Lord be a little more explicit and extend his remarks to cover, for instance, coastal protection works and sea defence works? There are contracts in both which involve work to be carried out over a long period, and proper tendering would be needed. But in each of those fields—that is to say, making good the breaches in sea defences in the middle of a storm or during a high tide, and dealing with the collapse of cliffs and the imperilling of property near to them—these are times when the work has to be done as a matter of urgency. It is important to be a little bit clearer

161
than we are at the moment how the Government intend to frame regulations which will bring one category of work within the terms of this clause and leave authorities free and clear to deal with emergencies of the kind I have just described.
Lord BELLWIN: Perhaps I could take that away to discuss with colleagues and consider as to how we might do that.
Lord MISHCON: I am not sure what the Minister is saying, and I say this with great deference because he appears to be being very helpful and that is the last thing in the world I want to stop him from being by an intervention. As I understood it, my noble friend Lord Bruce was moving an amendment, and I think he would be the first to agree that the little (c) contained in his amendment should be omitted, otherwise it would read:
"The Secretary of State may by regulations "—
and if you go on to read (c)—
"No regulations made under this Part of this Act …".
I am sure he would be the first person to say that what he intends—and of course he was quite clear in the purpose of his amendment—is to put the words "provided that", or something of that kind, and a separate sentence,
"No regulations made under this Part of this Act shall prevent a local authority from carrying out emergency works".
As I understood the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, he was suggesting that there were other works which ought to be defined to come within the purview of emergency works, which the Minister was saying that the Secretary of State would not dream of preventing by regulations. We have heard intentions which I am sure were sincerely expressed in regard to what Secretaries of State may wish to do, but Secretaries of State, like noble Lords, vary in their temperament and in their intelligence and in their aims, and this is a Bill which is not just there for the present Secretary of State.
I am asking the Minister, therefore, whether what he was saying was that he would have no objection to bringing forward, possibly on Report stage, and
162
after consideration of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, and by my noble friend Lord Bruce, a proviso for this part of the Bill which would make it quite clear that the Minister will not make regulations under this part in respect of the matters we have just been discussing.
Lord BELLWIN: What I meant so far as my noble friend Lord Sandford is concerned is that I would want to take away what he said and see if, in fact, there were any reasons why we should not do as he said; that is, include it in any other provisos we might bring back. I was not certain what we might do. I did note, as the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, fairly said, that the amendment was defective, and I said we would take it away and have a look at it and at the same time take into account what my noble friend Lord Sandford said.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: On the basis of what the noble Lord has said, and on the understanding that the matter will be considered by him prior to Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 34, 35 and 36 not moved.]
10.14 p.m.
Lord MORRIS Lord MORRIS moved Amendment No. 36A:
Page 9, leave out lines 13 to 16 and insert ("who is to undertake the work, its estimated cost and all the prices contained in offers submitted to the local authority or development body in consequence of the invitation mentioned in subsection (4)(a) above, in so far as those prices are relevant for the ascertainment of the estimated cost of the work.").
The noble Lord said: The intention of this amendment is to ensure that when authorities publish results of tender competitions they do not at the same time release commercially sensitive information such as the price of bills of quantities which contractors may submit in support of their tenders. I believe it is vital that commercial confidentiality be preserved if contractors are to continue to be willing to take on public sector work. In single stage tendering only the overall tender price should be revealed and all other figures should remain undisclosed.
My original amendment did not meet the situation where term contracts were involved, since in those cases there is no overall tender price. Since over 80 per cent. of direct labour work is in the maintenance area, term contracts are most appropriate. It is important to ensure that the Bill's requirements are adequate to secure proper publication of the results of competitions held on this basis.
I have given my noble friend notice of the point I now wish to make, and I should like for the moment to be a devil's advocate in my own cause. I am a little hit concerned, and I raise this at this stage purely to ask the Government if they would be good enough just to consider this point. I believe that the phrase,
"in so far as those prices are relevant for the ascertainment of the estimated cost of the work",
is perfectly adequate to cover my fear of indiscreet disclosures. However, I am a little bit concerned about whether the phrase,
"are relevant for the ascertainment of the estimated cost of the work",
is capable of legal test. In other words, will this phrase give the lawyers a field day? I should be very much obliged for some guidance on this point, either now or at any time my noble friend the Minister sees fit. I beg to move.
Lord MIDDLETON: I must say that I find myself in sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Morris is trying to achieve by this amendment. I am sure it was never the Government's intention that local authorities should be required to disclose to any person who may demand the information detailed prices which are normally considered to be confidential as between contractor and client. It seems to me quite wrong and a departure from normal practice that the words,
"or the prices contained in offers",
which appear in subsection (8)(a) of this clause, might, as they stand, be interpreted in any other way than that the overall tender price should be disclosed by a local authority. I am not too sure whether the wording of this amendment has precisely the effect which is intended by my noble friend. I share with him the feeling that there might very well be room for argument as to what prices are and are
164
not relevant. I shall listen with very great interest to what my noble friend Lord Bellwin has to say.
Lord BELLWIN: I gladly accept my noble friend's amendment. It clarifies a difficult piece of drafting in a delicate area of policy. We all want to be sure that tender competitions are above board, and we therefore need to ensure that their results are open to scrutiny; but at the same time we do not want to expose the sometimes very sensitive details which lie behind many tender offers. We must respect tenderers' commercial confidentiality, or else very soon no one would tender.
This amendment seeks to make it clear that only the final tender prices are to be published. In lump sum contracts, that means the lump sum price alone. In term contracts, based on schedules of rates, there may be more than one, but the principle is the same—only so much as is necessary to see how the final value of the tender offers look like when compared one with another. This is certainly fully in accord with the Government's intention. We hope that my noble friend's amendment achieves it. I think it is right that we should look carefully at the wording. We shall continue to examine the issues to satisfy ourselves and the contracting industry that it does achieve its object. We shall be looking at this matter carefully, but we accept the amendment.
Lord MORRIS: I am most grateful to my noble friend.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
10.20 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL Lord UNDERHILL moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 9, line 23, at end insert—
("( ) For the purposes of this section functional work shall exclude all necessary emergency work arising from flooding, storm damage, subsidence, fire and similar occurrencies.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is somewhat different from that moved by my noble friend Lord Bruce in so far as it intends to lay down that functional work shall definitely exclude various aspects of emergency work, and in the amendment I have endeavoured to define certain aspects of emergency work. I need

165
not emphasise to noble Lords experienced in local government that many local authorities, not only those with direct labour organisations, either have special teams of men on standby at weekends and public holidays or have their ordinary staff standing ready to deal with emergencies that may arise.
On Second Reading I and other noble Lords raised this issue but the Minister was unable to deal with it in his reply. I do not blame him for that because on Second Reading we had five hours of debate and he had to reply to the many issues raised on that occasion. However, in view of what the Minister said in reply to the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Bruce, perhaps he will accept this amendment. This is not a party political issue. Tributes have been paid to the emergency work carried out by local authorities or by their direct labour organisations when emergencies have arisen, and of course it is necessary for such emergencies to be dealt with immediately; there can be no delay because, as a number of noble Lords have said, the public demand instant action.
The wording of the amendment could perhaps be improved. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, referred to coastal protection, and I realise that I have omitted explosions and bomb incidents. Some emergencies of that nature could create colossal damage and may not therefore be minor operations. Be that as it may, the work must be put in hand at once, so I hope the Government will accept the principle of the amendment even if they cannot accept the wording.
Lord BELLWIN: I say at once that the Government are happy to accept the spirit and intention of the amendment. We agree entirely that no hindrance must be put in the way of local authorities to use any means at their disposal to deal with any genuine emergency which threatens life or property. It has always been our intention to draft the regulations under this clause so that emergency work was exempted from any competition requirement. We should be content to see such an exemption provided for on the face of the Bill. However, we have doubts about the drafting of the amendment, which indeed its rather hesitant conclusion "and similar occurrences" seems to suggest its authors share.
166
The problem, of course, is the definition of "emergency". The essential features of an emergency are unexpectedness in some degree and an overriding need for speedy action. Our new clause providing for a de minimis exemption tackles the problem by referring to urgent work whose necessity could not be foreseen, and this formula appears to be both more accurate and more comprehensive than the wording of the amendment. In view of what I have said, I would invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment at this stage so that something more satisfactory may be done on Report.
Lord UNDERHILL: In the light of that generous statement by the Minister I am only too pleased to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord DENHAM: I think it is probably the general feeling of the Committee that while this evening we have not gone perhaps quite so far as I would have hoped, we have covered a reasonable number of amendments, and I therefore beg to move that the House be now resumed.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

  THE HIGHWAYS ACT 1959: SECTION 127
  THE HIGHWAYS ACT 1959: SECTION 127
  HOUSING AUTHORITIES' DUTY TO INSPECT
  HOUSING AUTHORITIES' DUTY TO INSPECT
  TERRORISM AND THE PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANISATION
  TERRORISM AND THE PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANISATION
  BRITISH WORKERS EMPLOYED ABROAD: SAFEGUARDS
  BRITISH WORKERS EMPLOYED ABROAD: SAFEGUARDS
  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES: GOVERNMENT SUPPORT
  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES: GOVERNMENT SUPPORT
  SPECIAL CONSTABLES IN SCOTLAND
  SPECIAL CONSTABLES IN SCOTLAND
  CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONS
  CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONS
  CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONS: DELAY
  CITIZENSHIP APPLICATIONS: DELAY
  PRISON SENTENCES AND COUNTRY OF BIRTH
  PRISON SENTENCES AND COUNTRY OF BIRTH
  FATHER GLEB YAKUNIN: TRIAL
  FATHER GLEB YAKUNIN: TRIAL