Sitting of 13 November 1980

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Prison Officers (Industrial Action)
    Mr Kilroy-Silkasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met the Prison Officers' Association.
    Mr. Dubsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met representatives of the Prison Officers' Association to discuss the present situation in prisons.
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement about the prison officers' dispute.
    Mr. Flanneryasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the latest position in regard to the prison officers' dispute; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw): I last met the Prison Officers' Association on 23 October. Following that meeting, the director-general of the prison service has had a series of discussions with the Prison Officers' Association, most recently on Tuesday this week. Work between the two sides continues and a further meeting will take place next Tuesday.
    Substantial progress has been made towards devising a new duty system. The House will not expect me to explain in detail today the point which the current negotiations have reached. But I hope
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    that the Prison Officers' Association will grasp the opportunity presented by the new system to end the dispute and enable us to resume progress towards a better future for the prison service.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: When will the Home Secretary decide whether the prison officers constitute a disciplined force that should be subject to authority and orders or whether they are an industrial work force that should have a proper system of industrial relations? If the latter, will he now accept the need for arbitration or at least negotiate an honourable settlement and introduce, as the May committee suggested over a year ago, a proper disputes procedure whereby disputes of this nature can be resolved within the prison system and where there is the availability of conciliation and arbitration? If it is the former, when will he assert control?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am seeking to follow up all the proposals in the May report. That has been my position from the start. If I were to take up some of the hon. Gentleman's points, I would be tempted into the present area of negotiations. That would not help either side in the negotiations. I am seeking to make progress.
    Mr. Dubs: Is the Home Secretary aware that, as a consequence of the dispute, the total prison population, including those held in police stations and other temporary forms of custody, has declined? Will he draw lessons from that regarding his long-term aim of getting down the prison population?
    Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Gentleman is right. The number of prisoners today, including those in police cells and in the Army-camp type prisons, if that is the correct phrase, is 41,200. One can only add that sometimes good comes out of evil. I hope that progress will continue towards shorter sentences for non-violent offenders.
    Mr. Canavan: Is the Home Secretary aware of reports today in The Guardian and other newspapers of prisoners held

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    in dirty, overcrowded and inhumane conditions because of the prison officers' dispute? Will he ensure that these complaints are thoroughly investigated and appropriate action is taken?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I shall certainly see that these complaints are properly investigated. I must make clear to the hon. Gentleman and to the House that a necessary consequence of the industrial action taken by the Prison Officers' Association is that people have to be held in police cells. These are thoroughly unsatisfactory places for prisoners to be held. That is one of the problems facing us.
    Mr. Flannery: Does not the Home Secretary realise that this is the tip of the iceberg? It is inevitable that at some time, given the horrific conditions in many prisons—even worse than in the Victorian era, when many of the prisons were built—the pressures in Hull prison and Wormwood Scrubs will erupt elsewhere. The tension among prisoners is also bound to exist among prison officers. This is the great problem. Will the right hon. Gentleman take action on the whole question of prisons?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I hope that he will assist me by not seeking to exaggerate any of the difficulties that come up. I am seeking, calmly, through negotiation with the prison officers, to do exactly what the hon. Gentleman and the House want. I have some hopes of success. We have a chance now, if we seek it and are prepared to follow it, to get a new system in our prisons which will be much more satisfactory than in the past and to build on the recommendations of the May committee that the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) rightly set up. If we miss that opportunity, the House and the country will deeply regret it.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: According to the Home Secretary and from what I hear, negotiations are taking place. They are best left to the negotiating table. The other day we gave the Home Secretary the most extraordinary powers. Is he having to use them all?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his first remarks. My answer to his second question
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    is "No". The only power that I have used is to provide that those on remand should be seen in absentia and not brought to the courts. I dislike the power but it is inevitable since people on remand in prison cells and Army camps are all over the country and come long distances. I said that I would use the other powers only if I had to. I have not had to use them.
    Mr. Mates: Does my right hon. Friend recall that at the beginning of the dispute the spokesman for the Prison Officers' Association said that the argument was with the prison service and the Government and that its members did not wish their actions to be felt by prisoners and people on remand? Is that the way that it has turned out?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am afraid that such a possibility never existed. It was inevitable that the type of industrial action taken would harm the prisoners—and so it has. Many prison officers are worried about that development, and so am I. That is why I am so keen that the present negotiations should continue to a successful conclusion. I believe that that is the desire of the vast majority of prison officers, for the reason given by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Tilley: Does the Home Secretary realise that the only way to resolve the dispute and to restore morale and good will in the service is to give the Prison Officers' Association the right, which any other trade union has, to proper arbitration of a dispute by arbiters agreed by both sides?
    Mr. Whitelaw: As I said to the hon. hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk), if I were to reply to that question I should enter into the area of negotiations, and that can do only harm.
    Mr. Soley: Is the Home Secretary aware of the appalling consequences, particularly to teenagers, of sharing accommodation in police cells? I am pleased to hear that progress is being made on the new shift system. If progress is being made, why does he not say to the POA that the system will be introduced within a certain period of time, or accept the recommendations of the May report on arbitration? Does he agree that in that way the dispute could be stopped today?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I must not enter into the negotiations. I have made the Government's position clear. We are seeking to move forward from May in exactly the way that May proposed. We are doing this by accepting May's recommendations on pay and allowances, by accepting May's idea for a new duty system and improved industrial relations. That is the purpose of the present negotiations. That is why I hope that we shall succeed in carrying them through.

    Young Persons (Detention)
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many boys and girls under 16 years of age are currently held in places designated by him under the Imprisonment (Temporary Powers) Act which are not borstals, remand centres or other normal places of detention.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Leon Brittan): None, Sir.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the Minister aware that that reply is welcome? Will he give an assurance that boys and girls will not be held in such temporary accommodation in any circumstances? If they cannot be accommodated in properly designed institutions, will he ensure that they are sent home?
    Mr. Brittan: I am mildly surprised but totally delighted to give an answer which is welcome to the hon. Gentleman. I am afraid that I cannot go quite as far as he wishes. I see no circumstances at present foreseeable which would lead to the requirement that people of the age group mentioned should be held in inappropriate places. However, it is impossible to give an absolute guarantee and I shall not attempt to give one.

    Immigration
    Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce the measures promised with regard to a register and quota system for immigrants' dependants as soon as possible.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Both measures require legislation to be effective. The Government decided that changes in the immigration rules and the proposed changes in nationality law should take priority.
    Mr. Marlow: Since the Government, in their run-up to the election, gave a solemn and binding undertaking that a register would be introduced, and since there would be great political difficulties in implementing such measures in the run-up to a general election, can my right hon. Friend assure the House that it will be introduced in the next Queen's Speech? Failing that, does my right hon. Friend have plans to thread this piece of legislation through the undoubted political minefields that will surround him?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot give my hon. Friend the assurance that such proposals for legislation will be in the next Queen's Speech.
    Mr. Bidwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that questions such as this lead to grave anxieties among the coloured population in particular and among right-minded white people? Does he recall that in the last Parliament it was found, when the present Secretary of State for Education and Science was involved in an investigation, that the proposal would be misleading and impractical in application?
    Mr. Whitelaw: My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) is entitled to ask the question. If we were to censor ourselves and never ask questions which would do harm in the country, an awful lot of questions would never be asked.
    Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is widespread disappointment in our own indigenous nation that the Government have so far failed to reduce immigration substantially as they promised? When will he introduce measures to that end?
    Mr. Whitelaw: We introduced a change in the immigration rules, as my hon. Friend knows. I shall not anticipate the Queen's Speech, but we have made clear that we are considering proposals on nationality law. That is as far as we are going at present.
    Mr. Jim Marshall: Will the Home Secretary continue to resist reactionary pressure from his Back Benchers on the need for a register and quota? Will he

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    go even further and take steps to eliminate unofficial quotas caused by bureaucratic and administrative delays in high commissions overseas?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I think that I am beginning to learn that the right position for me is to stand absolutely still where I am.
    Mr. Budgen: What percentage rate of reduction in immigration, and when, does my right hon. Friend regard as sufficient to honour his pre-election pledge to bring an end to immigration as we have known it?
    Mr. Whitelaw: As always, I shall of course consider my hon. Friend's proposals carefully and make up my own mind when I have considered them about the correct response.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Now that the right hon. Gentleman knows that the two proposals are not on and that all the facts are against them, why will he not say so and put the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) out of his misery?
    Mr. Whitelaw: Because I am going to stay where I am for the present.

    Citizens Band Radio
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people have been prosecuted for using citizens band radio to date in 1980.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Timothy Raison): During the first nine months of this year, 331 persons were prosecuted for unlicensed installation and/or use of 27 MHz citizens band radios. Three hundred and twenty-five were convicted and six acquitted.
    Mr. Miller: Does my hon. Friend accept that there is growing concern among the increasing numbers of CB users about the disparity in prosecutions in different parts of the country? In view of the growing number of users, will my hon. Friend reconsider the suggestion that they might still be liable to prosecution when the open channel system is introduced?
    Mr. Raison: I cannot pay much regard to people who complain about such a disparity. At present, the use of 27
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    MHz is illegal. Wherever one is throughout the country, one must not use it.
    Dr. Summerskill: Since the Minister of State has announced, according to reports, that an estimated 50,000 people now use illegal imported radio sets on the 27 MHz band, does not his reply that 331 persons were prosecuted suggest that the law is not being enforced adequately? When he comes to his proposals as a result of his Green Paper on citizens band radio, will he bear this unsatisfactory situation in mind?
    Mr. Raison: We are aware of some problems in enforcement. The law is absolutely clear. We believe that our proposals will provide a satisfactory alternative. If necessary, we shall take steps to ban the sale and advertising of illegal sets.
    Mr. Lyell: Is my hon. Friend aware that those figures show that there is an urgent need to take action? Is he further aware that it is important to find a workable frequency that will have the support of a sufficient number of people in Britain to solve the problem? Will he consider the old black and white television bands more favourably than they have been considered in the past?
    Mr. Raison: I am aware of the need for a rapid decision. We are waiting for the end of the consultation period at the close of this month. We shall then announce our conclusions as quickly as possible. It is a complicated matter. On the question of the old black and white television channels, as our consultation document indicated there are real problems there. They will not be available until 1986 and there are a number of other important potential uses for that part of the spectrum.

    Metropolitan Police
    Mr. Cyril D. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects the Metropolitan Police to reach their full establishment; and if he will now review that establishment.
    Mr. Brittan: The force strength was 23,349 at the end of September, a gain of 621 so far this year and leaving 3,428 vacancies on the present establishment. It is likely to be some years before that

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    establishment is reached. With regard to the size of the establishment itself, the position is that the Commissioner is now reviewing the force's manpower needs.
    Mr. Townsend: I welcome that reply because the gain has led to an increase in the number of bobbies on the beat in the streets of my constituency. Is it not absurd that the Metropolitan Police are presently working on an establishment that was designed for Greater London 15 years ago?
    Mr. Brittan: There is not a practical problem unless and until the Metropolitan Police reach their establishment level. There is not much point in our doing anything other than assisting and encouraging them to continue their successful recruitment policy within the present establishment.
    Mr. George Cunningham: In any discussions that take place between the Commissioner and the Home Office about the proper establishment, will the Home Office take into account the fact that the ability of the Metropolitan Police to respond to increasing requests from people on housing estates and the like for more intensive policing is limited by the all-London and, indeed, national responsibilities of the Metropolitan Police, with the result that police are called away from the divisions and the community work that they could otherwise be doing? Will the Minister confirm that that point will be fully taken into account in any discussions?
    Mr. Brittan: There is no doubt that any consideration of the matter by my right hon. Friend must take account of the fact that the Metropolitan Police have responsibilities over and above the responsibilities of other forces, as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
    Mr. Eggar: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware of the worrying increase in vandalism and senseless crime in the areas of outer London? Will he assure my constituents that the Metropolitan Police, in allocating newly trained policemen, are not giving preference to inner London at the expense of outer London?
    Mr. Brittan: Allocation policies are very much a matter for the Commissioner. I know that he is concerned to
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    provide a proper service for outer London as well as for inner London.
    Mr. Dobson: Will the Minister say what was the population of London when the establishment was agreed? Will he say also what was then the ratio between the population and the establishment, and what it is today?
    Mr. Brittan: I cannot answer that question without notice.
    Mr. Forman: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that many of my constituents are gratitfied with the progress that has been made towards the establishment levels in the Metropolitan Police? Is he further aware that they are also deeply concerned about the drainage of scarce police manpower for demonstrations and other events in central London? Can he hold out any hope that those events can be policed more economically, so that more police are available for community policing in outer London?
    Mr. Brittan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. It is a cause for congratulation that the Metropolitan Police strength is increasing at its present rate. On my hon. Friend's second point, the Government are reviewing the law on public order. In that review we are taking into account the fact that the demonstrations referred to by my hon. Friend undoubtedly lead to expense and a drain of police manpower away from other tasks.

    Gaming
    Mr. Hicksasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he intends making the order to update the financial limits applicable to sections 40 and 41 of the Gaming Act; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Raison: On 31 July my right hon. Friend made an order increasing from £3 to £6 the maximum daily charge for taking part in bridge and whist. This increase takes effect on 1 December. The other limits applying to sections 40 and 41 of the Gaming Act 1968 are under review, but we cannot yet say whether they are likely to be increased.
    Mr. Hicks: With regard to section 41, does not my hon. Friend agree that the existing limits on total prize money of

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    £100 and of £1 per person to cover all costs are outdated because of inflation? Does he not realise that many voluntary organisations, such as sports clubs and charities, are dependent for their very livelihood on the incomes obtained from bingo and other such activities?
    Mr. Raison: I note my hon. Friend's remarks. The matter is under review. It is not our desire to make changes that will encourage the spread of gambling. In dealing with gaming legislation, we must bear that in mind.

    Residential Homes (Fire Precautions)
    Mr. Sainsburyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the code of guidance on fire precautions in residential homes for the elderly is to be issued.
    Mr. Brittan: Interdepartmental consultations are taking place on a draft guide produced by the Home Office. These should be complete soon, and within the next few months my right hon. Friend will invite comments from fire service and social service interests. When these have been considered and taken into account the guide will be published, but I cannot yet predict when that will be.
    Mr. Sainsbury: Does my hon. and learned Friend recall telling me and the House some months ago that the issue of such a guide was a vital first step towards improving fire precautions in residential homes for the elderly? In the light of that, does he not agree that the process of consultation appears to be taking an interminable time?
    Mr. Brittan: I agree that it is important. The exact requirements are complicated. I am pleased that we are already at the stage of interdepartmental consultations and that it will be possible in a comparatively short time to invite comments from fire service and social service interests. We wish to go faster, but we think that this is the right approach.
    Mr. Heffer: Is not the whole position now complicated because the Government are taking a stupid attitude in relation to the firemen's pay? Is it not time that the Government—
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is stretching the question a long way. It is clearly about fire precautions in residential homes for the elderly.
    Mr. Heffer: Is not the Minister aware that the position of elderly people in residential homes is made much worse because of the Government's attitude to-towards firemen and their pay? Will not the Government now decide to carry out the decisions of previous Governments in relation to the agreement made three years ago with the firemen?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not believe that the code of guidance, which is the subject of this question, is in any way affected by the question of firemen's pay. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman thinks that either.

    Immigration
    Mr. John Carlisleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next intends to meet the chairman of the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants to discuss the findings of its annual report.
    Mr. Raison: My right hon. Friend has no plans to do so.
    Mr. Carlisle: If the Home Secretary had plans to do so, would he assure the chairman that the Government's policy of deporting and uprooting illegal immigrants would be followed with great verve and that he has the support of many hon. Members and of many members of the ethnic communities?
    Mr. Raison: That sounded a rather hypothetical question. It is the policy of this Government, as it was of previous Administrations, to remove illegal entrants unless there are compelling reasons in favour of their remaining.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Does not the Minister recognise that the definition of an illegal entrant that has now been created by the courts was never envisaged by the House when it passed the 1971 Act? Does he realise that the removal of people who entered by deception is now being used as a tool to harass people who are perfectly innocent and where there is no reason to question their status in Britain?
    Mr. Raison: I do not accept that interpretation of our policy. We are carrying out the law as it is laid down by the courts.
    Mr. Marlow: Is this body in receipt of public funds; and, if so, how much?
    Mr. Raison: I shall write to my hon. Friend about that matter.
    Dr. Summerskill: What progress is being made in the Government's review about the procedures used in so-called blanket raids by the police which involve the questioning and sometimes the arrest of members of particular ethnic groups? When this review is completed, will the Minister make a statement to the House, because there is still a great deal of unrest on the subject?
    Mr. Raison: We are making good progress with the review, and we hope to make a statement to the House before long.

    Vietnamese Refugees
    Sir Paul Bryanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the 30,000 Vietnamese refugees still remaining in camps in Hong Kong, he will announce a new quota of such refugees to be received in the United Kingdom in the coming year.
    Mr. Raison: We are directing our efforts to the fulfilment of our undertaking made to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and announced in July 1979, to accept 10,000 Vietnamese refugees. About 7,250 have so far arrived in this country from Hong Kong.
    Sir P. Bryan: Is my hon. Friend aware that Britain and Hong Kong together have given a magnificent lead in this difficult problem of dealing with Vietnamese refugees—Hong Kong in accepting these great numbers despite its difficulties with regard to Chinese immigrants, and Britain in setting up the Geneva conference and undertaking to accept the quota of 10,000 refugees? Is he aware that other countries are now looking to this country to see what further quota it will announce before deciding what further quotas they will accept?
    Mr. Raison: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said about our
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    contribution, and I endorse what he said about the contribution of Hong Kong. However, I am afraid that I am not in a position to add to my previous answer.
    Mr. Tilley: Does not the Minister accept that the Government now have a policy of paradox verging on hypocrisy if on the one hand they accept the Vietnamese boat people and on the other deport hundreds of Filipino domestic workers whose only fault is that they did not answer a question about their children that they were never asked?
    Mr. Raison: I can see no comparison at all between the hon. Gentleman's statements.
    Mrs. Knight: Many of us who have had the opportunity to see and talk to these refugees in Hong Kong have the greatest sympathy for them and would wish every help to be extended to them. However, when considering this question, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that at present Britain does not have sufficient jobs for its own people or a sufficient number of homes? In making his decision about the kind of help that can be afforded to them, will he press areas of the Commonwealth where there are space and opportunities to take them instead?
    Mr. Raison: Like my hon. Friend, I have recently had the opportunity of visiting Hong Kong and talking to the refugees. I very much endorse what she has said. She was also right to point out that housing and employment are constraints that we must recognise. I do not think that it is for us to urge other members of the Commonwealth to take these refugees.

    Parliamentary Constituencies (Boundaries)
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many parliamentary constituencies in England have not yet been examined by the parliamentary Boundary Commission in its current review of English parliamentary constituencies; when he expects those not yet examined to be examined; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Brittan: The Boundary Commission for England has yet to publish provisional recommendations in respect of 16 counties, which at present comprise 168 whole parliamentary constituencies

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    and parts of 49 other constituencies. The Commission expects to have completed its task of reviewing all parliamentary constituencies in England in 1982.
    Mr. Madel: As the process of inquiry is inevitably proving lengthy, does that answer indicate that the Commission will find it difficult to complete its work in 1982? Should not Parliament look again at the guidelines which the Commission must observe in relation to imminent population increases in certain constituencies?
    Mr. Brittan: I have no reason to doubt that the Commission will be able to finish its work in 1982. The answer that I gave is a reflection of the progress which the Commission is making in its work. As to my hon. Friend's second point, although the Commission is not statutorily required to have regard to imminent changes in electorates, it has said quite clearly in paragraph 17 of its document that such changes are a factor in its consideration of alternative schemes.
    Dr. Edmund Marshall: Will the Minister confirm that the Boundary Commission for England is a totally independent body, which is subject to neither controls by nor any form of pressure from the Government of the day, and that the only statutory constraint on the timetable of the present general review is that it must be completed not later than 21 April 1984?
    Mr. Brittan: That is an impeccable statement of the constitutional position, but I do not think that it is objectionable for hon. Members to ask how the Commission is getting on with the review.

    Vagrancy Act
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he plans to review the present Vagrancy Act.
    Mr. Brittan: A review of the Vagrancy Acts was carried out by the working party on vagrancy and street offences which reported in 1976. General reform of the Acts must await a suitable legislative opportunity, but the Government expect to be able, early next Session, to announce their intentions with regard to the suspected person offence.
    Mr. Cox: Is the Minister aware of the discussions by the Select Committee on Home Affairs on the issue that is commonly known as the "sus" law? Is he further aware that the present working of that law does more to destroy good community relations in this country than any other issue? As a matter of urgency, will he look at the present working of that law and give an assurance that it will be repealed as soon as possible?
    Mr. Brittan: I can certainly assure the hon. Gentleman, as has been done in the past, that the Government will announce their intentions with regard to change as early as possible, and that will be very soon. As to the racial impact, I welcome the Select Committee's finding that there has been no deliberate racial bias on the part of the Metropolitan Police in the use of "sus". However, I appreciate the force of the arguments that this offence in its present form inhibits the improvement of relations between the police and ethnic minorities.
    Mr. Stanbrook: In any review of the Vagrancy Act, will my hon. and learned Friend confirm that it will be undesirable to prevent the police from having the power of arrest where there is clear evidence of an intention to commit an offence?
    Mr. Brittan: I see the force of what my hon. Friend says, but the question remains "What is an offence and what is not an offence?" Until that is resolved, I do not think that one can deal with the problem as a whole.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Does not the Minister realise that 350 people a year are imprisoned on "sus" offences even though the prosecution does not have sufficient evidence to mount a charge of theft or attempted theft? Is not that unduly harsh? Will he at least make such "sus" offences non-imprisonable?
    Mr. Brittan: It is because of the criticisms that have been made on both sides of the House of this offence that my right hon. Friend has indicated that at an early date he intends to announce the changes in the law that he proposes to put before the House.

    Police Complaints Procedure
    Mr. Meacherasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what evidence his Department has received regarding the working party he has set up for revision of the police complaints procedure.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I have received some observations from Members of Parliament and others, including recently those of Justice and the Merseyside county council, on the triennial review report of the Police Complaints Board. The working party is concerned only with how the board's recommendation for an independent element in the investigation of serious complaints might be implemented.
    Mr. Meacher: Indeed. Is the Home Secretary aware that he has drawn the terms of reference of the working party far too restrictively and that to have the investigation of complaints supervised by a lawyer, however distinguished, in no way adequately guarantees the independence of the complaints system? Will he recognise that the public will be satisfied about the independence of that system only if civilian police ombudsmen are appointed in each of the 43 police force areas of the country?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman or with almost any of the points that he has put forward. I believe that it was right to draw the working party's terms of reference tightly so that it considered the one major point about the independent element in important offences. That is what was done. As to the hon. Gentleman's other point of view, I do not think that it commands very much support anywhere except from himself.
    Mr. Garel-Jones: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any complaints procedure exists whereby the police can make known their justified complaints against the continual harassment of the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher)?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I think that I have said enough and I shall go no further.
    Mr. Hooley: Is the Home Secretary aware that it would enhance public confidence
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    in the police if there was a genuinely independent procedure for investigating complaints?
    Mr. Whitelaw: We believe that that is important, which is why we set up the working party on the particular point that was made in the police complaints board triennial review. I hope that the House will equally accept that it is right that there should be the most stringent investigations. I believe that the police as a whole conduct stringent investigations. I should also have thought that, from all the evidence, the police command a great deal of public support for their actions in this country.
    Mr. Aitken: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some police forces senior officers above the rank of chief inspector are spending more time—the majority of their time—investigating these complaints instead of investigating crime? Is he further aware that this absurd situation has come about because the complaints procedure comes automatically into force whether or not a complainant has asked for it? Should we not, as a matter of urgency, ensure that that procedure is complainant-activated?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I agree with my hon. Friend that there is no doubt that a great deal of important, valuable police time is spent investigating complaints which often turn out to be illusory and without foundation. It is a serious matter, and it is all the more important that we get the complaints procedure into proper balance. I hope that the House will keep it there. Sometimes I think it will, and sometimes I think it will not.

    Irish Citizens (Voting Rights)
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received regarding his decision not to make provision for altering the anomaly regarding Irish voting rights in his forthcoming nationality Bill.
    Mr. Brittan: Since the publication of the White Paper on British nationality law on 30 July, by last week we had received letters referring to this decision from four hon. Members and about a dozen members of the public.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that, if the opinions expressed to me by my constituents are anything to go by, the restrained number of letters that are received probably reflects the fact that constituents are so stertorous with rage that they cannot put pen to paper.
    Mr. Brittan: I often think that it is difficult to know why constituents have written but impossible to know why they have not written.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is it now clear that the nationality Bill will be introduced in the next Session; and, if so, will the Government reconsider the proposal that children who are born here should not receive British nationality?
    Mr. Brittan: I cannot anticipate the Queen's Speech.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: What representations has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State received about United Kingdom voting rights in the Irish Republic, where our citizens may vote for local authorities but not for the Dail Eireann?
    Mr. Brittan: I do not have details of the number of representations on that subject, but the Taioseach has announced that he has established a working group to examine the matter.

    Citizenship
    Mr. Wigleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will ensure that the husbands whose wives are British citizens automatically have full citizenship rights immediately they marry.
    Mr. Raison: The Government's view, as set out in the White Paper on British nationality law, is that wives and husbands of British citizens should be treated equally in the way in which they may apply for citizenship; and that they should do so by applying for naturalisation, though after a three-year qualifying period instead of five years.
    Mr. Wigley: Is the Minister aware that there would be considerable disappointment and dismay if that equality was achieved by the downgrading of the rights that currently exist for wives? Will he give some indication as to the Government's thinking on the period of three years suggested in the White Paper and
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    on whether time already spent in the United Kingdom will qualify towards that three-year period?
    Mr. Raison: Our proposal that the two sexes should be treated equally is fair, and that is widely seen to be so. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with regard to the particular point that he raised.

    Bail
    Mr. Arthur Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to how many persons he has granted bail under the terms of the Imprisonment (Temporary Provisions) Act 1980.
    Mr. Whitelaw: None, Sir.
    Mr. Davidson: Is that because of the right hon. Gentleman's understandable reluctance to use these arbitrary powers or because the courts have been more generous in granting bail as a result of the overcrowding in prisons; or is it a combination of the two?
    Mr. Whitelaw: My hon. Friend the Minister of State gave an undertaking to the House that we would use those powers only in exceptional circumstances. They have not arisen. The number of people in police cells remains the same, at about 3,500. We have had the advantage of the Army-type prisons at Frank-land and Rollestone, and therefore I have not had need to use these powers, and I hope that I shall not have need to use them because I hope that the dispute will soon be settled.

    Crime Prevention (North Yorkshire)
    Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable on the efforts being undertaken to combat crime in North Yorkshire.
    Mr. Brittan: No, Sir, since arrangements already exist for my right hon. Friend to be kept fully informed of the problems facing the police and the measures being taken to deal with them, both in North Yorkshire and elsewhere.
    Mr. Cryer: Will the Minister tell the House under what authority Menwith Hill base near Harrogate is intercepting telephone calls under the control of the National Security Agency of the United

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    States? If that is so, as I understand, there is no authority for it, which means that criminal activities are taking place. What will the Minister do about it?
    Mr. Brittan: That is another question. The people of North Yorkshire will be more concerned to hear that the number of serious offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire fell by 6 per cent. between 1978 and 1979. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's particular question, I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said about these matters in reply to the right hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Freeson) on 17 July.
    Mr. Cryer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the light of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I reserve the right to raise the matter again on the Adjournment.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Mr. Strawasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 13 November.
  The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with the Speaker of the Swedish Parliament.
  Mr. Straw: Is the Prime Minister aware that never before in this century have a Government in one Session of Parliament doubled the rate of inflation, forced 700,000 people on to the dole, wiped out the results of 13 years of industrial investment and brought such misery and disaster to this country? What is the Prime Minister's target date for restoring the rate of interest, inflation, unemployment and output to the levels at which she found them in 1979?
  The Prime Minister: May I add that in one Session of Parliament the inflation rate is falling fast, the balance of payments is well and truly in the black and there are now totally different attitudes to pay settlements, without the imposition of an official incomes policy.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: Will my right hon. Friend find time today to send a letter to the Leader of the Opposition congratulating
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  him on being the first Leader of the Opposition since Hugh Gaitskell to be educated at a public school and expressing the hope that he, like his father, will encourage the Labour Party to provide the freedom of choice that his father provided for those who wish to attend independent schools?
  The Prime Minister: May I also add that I am a little sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had an accident. It was very unfortunate.
  Mr. Foot: May I thank the right hon. Lady for her kind words, but I return to more important questions. Since she seems so satisfied with the Government's economic performance, will she explain why that opinion is not shared by, say, the spokesman of the CBI? Has she had a chance to consider the matter raised by Sir Terence Beckett on the day before he visited Downing Street—a matter that is exclusively within her own authority—and will she now take the hint and introduce into her Cabinet someone with some industrial knowledge and experience?
  The Prime Minister: I note that the Labour Party did not choose a leader renowned for his industrial experience. I spent some time yesterday seeing both Sir Ray Pennock and Sir Terence Beckett. After that, they described the meeting as magnificent.
  Mr. Foot: May I say to the right hon. Lady that I was not suggesting that I should join her Cabinet. I propose to form one of my own. As industrial production and manufacturing output have now fallen to the level at which they were in the days of the three-day week, when the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) presided over our affairs, has she considered inviting him to come to the rescue?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman need have no fear that he would be invited, so the question does not really arise.
  Industrial production is down in this country and in a number of other countries as well, including West Germany, where it has fallen by 5 per cent. in the past year, and West Germany has not suffered, as we have, from excessive pay settlements over the previous two years.
  Mr. Latham: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the last three Labour Prime Ministers have all sustained and supported Britain's independent nuclear deterrent, which was founded by Lord Attlee?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, I recall that, and I trust that that tradition will be maintained, in Britain's best interests.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Will the right hon. Lady, if she gets any leisure today, reflect on the importance of distinguishing sharply between pay settlements in the private sector taking account of a prospective fall in the future rate of inflation, which we hope will continue, and, on the other hand, the inadvisability of attempting to force arbitrary reductions upon the real remuneration of public servants by ignoring the inflation which has already taken place, though it is largely not the fault of her Government?
  The Prime Minister: With due respect, central and local government are currently spending some 50 per cent. more on wages and salaries than they were two years ago, and in the last two years increases in the public sector have been substantially greater than inflation.
  Increases in the private sector take account of many things as well as the rate of inflation, but in particular they take into account the capacity of the private sector employer to pay those wage increases, and it is reasonable that we should also take into account the capacity of the private sector to sustain the public sector.
  Mr. Maxtonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 13 November.
  The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave a few moments ago.
  Mr. Maxton: As the right hon. Lady is in the mood to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, would she like to take the opportunity to congratulate him on the result of the opinion poll in today's New Standard, which shows that, after only four days as Leader of the Opposition, he is already more popular than she is? Is not this a remarkable reflection on her Government's economic policy?
  The Prime Minister: Gladly will I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and say that it is not what happens after four days that counts.
  Mrs. Knight: Will my right hon. Friend take heart today that, in spite of attacks from some quarters, there is much grateful appreciation that her firmness and courage are paying off against inflation and bringing back realism to Britain, as evidenced by the pay settlements reported today of the miners and British Leyland?
  The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I believe that I am quite capable of taking the attacks. If we are to do the things that will get Britain right, some of them will be painful, and there is no way round that.
  Mr. Woodall: Will the Prime Minister accept that Labour Members appreciate her sympathy extended to my right hon. Friend because he has his foot and ankle in pot? Will she, in return, accept our sympathy because her Government appear to be going to pot—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has a question to ask.
  Mr. Woodall: Will the Prime Minister confirm or deny that the Secretary of State for Defence intends to resign?
  The Prime Minister: I have to disappoint the hon. Gentleman. My Government are in good heart and strength.
  Mr. Butcherasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 13 November.
  The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave some moments ago.
  Mr. Butcher: Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the disturbing conclusions of the recent inspectors' report on the Inner London Education Authority? Does she agree that unambitious teaching can sometimes negate the desired effect of increased resources in education?
  The Prime Minister: I have read the report, which was widely published in the press. I agree with what my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science said

  617
  yesterday—that the quality of teaching is not to be judged by the amount of money spent upon it, nor specifically by the number of teachers.
  To do justice to a number of the teachers in the Inner London Education Authority, the report was complimentary about the standards in nursery schools and primary schools, in a number of the older comprehensive schools and also in those which had been founded on grammar schools. It was very critical of some of the others and said that they were just not getting the best out of the children. It is our duty to see that children give of their best and are encouraged and stimulated to do so in the State education system.
  Mr. David Steel: Will the Prime Minister exlain how free collective bargaining, which she promised people at the last election, as against incomes policy, is now to operate in the public sector?
  The Prime Minister: Perhaps I can best illustrate it by an example. [HON. MEMBERS:"The firemen."] Hon. Members obviously wish me to illustrate it by reference to the firemen. Very well. Last year, the cash limits in local authorities were 13 per cent. The settlement for firemen was 20 per cent. The average earnings for firemen were up by 24 per cent.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the British people, and industry and business in this country, will put up with the hair shirt or the hair blouse for quite a period of time, provided that they can be assured that in due course there will be sewn into this hair shirt some silken lining? Will she try, in the next Session of Parliament, to get her Government to concentrate on some of the good things that are coming?
  The Prime Minister: One really must congratulate a considerable number of industrial companies on the fact that our exports are staying up magnificently and that this country still exports some 30 per cent. of its national income, which is more than in the United States, Germany or Japan. Our problem at the moment is that North Sea oil is not a passport to an easy life. Indeed, it is not that every cloud has a silver lining but that every silver lining has a cloud.
  Mr. Foot: May I refer the right hon. Lady back to the extremely serious statement that she made a minute or two ago about firemen's pay? Many of us hoped that she and her Government, having considered the matter afresh—as I trust they did at the Cabinet this morning—would come to the House and try to rescue the arbitration system in this country instead of inflicting such grave injury upon it. Is she aware that, at the time of the last election, Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg, who is a member of her Government, and who also happens to be my Member of Parliament—[Interruption.] Is she aware—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the name of the hon. Member instead of the constituency.
  Mr. Foot: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the Conservative candidate for Hampstead said on behalf of her party at the last election that it was utterly false to suggest that any Conservative Government would try to go back on the agreement that was made with the firemen? Is it not the fact that the right hon. Lady's Government are engaged in a breach of faith and that this is bound to have the most serious effect on industrial relations not merely with the firemen but with a range of other individual settlements?
  The Prime Minister: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman is "No". This is not an arbitration. This is a negotiation in the National Joint Council. The Government are not a party to the negotiation. The local authorities do the negotiating. That is precisely why I gave the right hon. Gentleman the figures for last year. Last year, within a 13 per cent. cash limit there was a 20 per cent. settlement for the firemen. They finished up with an increase in average earnings of 24 per cent. This year, all that we have done is to fix a 6 per cent. increase in the pay bill as the Government's contribution to the rate support grant.
  Mr. Foot: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the comment that her Government are engaged in a breach of faith with the firemen comes not only from the Opposition? It is a view that has been expressed by most commentators—for example, in the leading article in yesterday's edition of the Financial Times.

  619
  May I ask the Government once again seriously to consider all the industrial consequences of what is happening in the firemen's dispute? May I ask the Prime Minister afresh to consider the matter and when the House resumes to have a debate on the subject and, secondly, a debate on the 6 per cent. policy? I suppose that they are saying that they are not responsible for that one either. At any rate, when we discover what the Government are prepared to defend, let them come to the House and defend it and not try to sneak it in through the back door.
  The Prime Minister: Facts never did bother the right hon. Gentleman. First, he gets them wrong. This is not an arbitration. Secondly, he gets the negotiation wrong. The Government are not a party. It is done in the National Joint Council. Thirdly, it is not a 6 per cent. pay limit on particular pay. It is a 6 per cent. cash limit for the total of the local authority pay bill in so far as the Government contribute to it through the rate support grant. Will the right hon. Gentleman get his facts right before he comes into the Chamber?
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: May I raise a genuine point of order, Mr. Speaker? We have 15 minutes twice a week for Prime Minister's Question Time. One understands the enthusiasm of Leaders of the Opposition to ask four questions. Will it be possible to encourage the Leader of the Opposition to start his four questions towards the end of the quarter of an hour rather than taking up most of the time that is available?
  Mr. Speaker: As the House knows, I do not decide—I have no wish to decide—when the Leader of the Opposition rises in his place.
  I have a brief statement to make—
  Mr. Faulds rose—
  Mr. Harry Ewing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I put it to you that there is a very strong possibility that the Prime Minister, albeit perhaps inadvertently, has seriously misled the House? Will you guide the House, Mr. Speaker, on the events of last Friday in the National Joint Council, to which the Prime Minister has referred—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The contents of
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  the Prime Minister's reply cannot be a point of order for me. The right hon. Lady takes responsibility for what she says.
  Mr. Faulds rose—
  Mr. Ioan Evans: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are going into recess prior to the new Session. On Monday I raised with the Prime Minister the issue of the 6 per cent. limit. There appears to be a great deal of confusion. This was put in a written answer last week—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot pursue that on a point of order.
  Mr. Faulds: I am fortunate, Mr. Speaker, to have caught your eye. Further to an earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I ask you for a little guidance about the length of Prime Minister's Question Time? We now have Members on the Conservative Benches who are to a slight degree less part-time than they used to be. As a result, there is somewhat greater pressure on Question Time. Many of us who have been in the House—I speak personally now, and I have been here for 15 or 16 years—[HON. MEMBERS:"Too long".] No. not long enough. I have every intention of being here for another 15 or 16 years.
  Mr. Robert Atkins: What about reselection?
  Mr. Faulds: Reselection will merely ensconce my position. I have my general management committee's authority to say so—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. After that long preamble, I am pleased to know that the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) hopes to stay here for another 15 years. I think that the majority also wish to stay in this place for another 15 years. If he has one, will he come to his point of order?
  Mr. Faulds: I am very willing to do so, Mr. Speaker, as I have one. I think—which is more than most of my colleagues occasionally do—that there is general agreement on both sides of the House that there is increasing pressure from Members on both sides of the Chamber to get in on Prime Minister's Question Time. I shall not be so unkind, Mr. Speaker, as to tell you how

  621
  many times you managed to avoid catching my eye, or vice versa. I am not yet disheartened, but I am rapidly approaching that position.
  Is there not a serious case for considering the question of the length of Prime Minister's Question Time, which takes place twice a week? There are many of us who have valid points to make and who rarely manage to get in. Could this matter be considered by whatever are the appropriate channels.
  Mr. Speaker: I am sure that the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's point of order will be considered by those who are responsible. Like the hon. Gentleman, I do not know how many times I have failed to call him. However, I know that I have called him on six occasions for Prime Minister's questions.

  STATE OPENING OF PARLIAMENT
  Mr. Speaker: As the House probably knows, there is to be no television coverage in House of Commons premises of the State Opening of Parliament this year. However, I understand that, as on previous occasions, the press wishes to take still photographs of the ceremony in the Members' Lobby and from the Press and Commonwealth Galleries of the Chamber. The Services Committee has, through the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee, recommended that this customary request should be approved, and I have accepted the recommendation.

BRITISH SHIPBUILDERS
The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Adam Butler): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement on the finances of British Shipbuilders. In my statement of 31 July on British Shipbuilders' finances I told the House that the corporation was forecasting cash needs well in excess of its external financing limit and that the new chairman had been asked to carry out a review of prospects for the industry, including an examination of all possible ways of achieving savings.
As the House will know, merchant shipbuilding has been contracting ever since British Shipbuilders was formed. Since vesting day employment in merchant shipbuilding has fallen from 38,000 to below 18,000. In British Shipbuilders as a whole there have been about 17,000 redundancies. Despite this contraction and the economies that the chairman is introducing, I regret that the review has shown that there is no scope for significant reductions in the corporation's cash requirements this year. A substantial part of the cash requirement is due to the winding down of payments made in advance of work in progress on naval exports, and to the effects of the steel strike.
The Government have therefore agreed to increase British Shipbuilders' external financing limit for the current year from £120 million to £185 million. The additional resources are being found from the unallocated contingency reserve within the planned level of public expenditure. The chairman has also advised me that the corporation is likely to exceed by some £20 million its loss limit of £90 million before crediting intervention fund assistance.
The House's approval for the additional finance will be sought in the winter Supplementary Estimates; in the meantime should the corporation require additional funds these will be provided by repayable advances from the Contingencies Fund. The chairman expects a considerable improvement next year in British Shipbuilders' financial performance. The benefits of the restructuring programme, the economies that he is introducing, and the forecast higher utilisation of merchant shipbuilding capacity should be important contributory factors. This improvement will

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be reflected in the forthcoming external financing limit for 1981–82. The loss target will be reduced to £25 million after intervention fund assistance, which is equivalent to £75 million before that assistance.
However, there are uncertainties ahead, which could affect these forecasts for next year. The market for merchant shipbuilding and ship repair remains weak and British Shipbuilders continues to be unable to secure merchant ship orders without subsidy. The future level of naval orders has yet to be determined in the context of the Government's annual expenditure review. In these circumstances the Government have decided that it would be prudent to agree to the British Shipbuilders' request that the shipbuilding redundancy payments scheme should be prolonged. Enabling legislation to that end will be introduced shortly.
The Government accept that subsidies will, for the moment, continue to be necessary to enable British Shipbuilders to obtain merchant ship orders, but we believe, in line with other countries, that world-wide subsidies to shipbuilding must progressively reduce. We are therefore proposing to the European Commission the use of the remainder of the present £55 million tranche of intervention fund from the end of this year to July 1981, and a new tranche at a lower figure of £45 million from July 1981 to July 1982.
There are new opportunities available for the industry in offshore work if the corporation can prove itself competitive, but this is also a difficult market. I have invited the chairman to assess these and all other opportunities in a new corporate plan in spring 1981.
However, whether in offshore work or in the production of ships, there can be little doubt about the magnitude of the task facing the corporation. Only the most substantial and rapid improvements in productivity and efficiency, and in reducing overheads and other cost cutting, can give British Shipbuilders the prospect of a viable future. The Government believe that the necessary determination exists. It is up to all those in British Shipbuilders to translate that determination into achievement.
Mr. English: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When the right hon. Gentleman
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used the terms "contingency reserve" and "Contingencies Fund" he did not make plain that he was proposing to spend money without Parliament's authority. The contingency reserve is a mere accounting concept. The Contingencies Fund is the very body of money that has been criticised by the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), the Public Accounts Committee, the Expenditure Committee of the last Parliament, the Procedure Committee and various other bodies. The purpose of the Contingencies Fund was to deal with such things as floods, storms and tempests. It was used to create nationalised industries, such as the British National Oil Corporation, before the House of Commons had approved of its creation. One would have thought that the Conservative Party would not lay itself open to such a charge.
May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to forbid such a thing? We should debate the question of spending public money without the authority of the House.
Mr. Speaker: There will be a good opportunity for questioning now.
Mr. John Silkin: It is always agreeable to watch the process of education working its way through the minds of the Secretary of State for Industry and the Minister. That, at least, is something of a "Silkin" lining—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah"] The phrase is not mine but that of one of the Minister's hon. Friends.
Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that for over a year British Shipbuilders and the Opposition have pointed out that the cash limit of £120 million for 1980–81 would prove impossible and unworkable? The Minister has spoken of a cash limit of £185 million—the exact figure that British Shipbuilders asked for more than a year ago.
Does not the Minister realise that, given the delay in producing this cash limit and given the fact that he refuses to say what will be necessary for 1981–82. British Shipbuilders is in an intolerable position? This year it has been denied the opportunity to plan its production, as it should do. As the Minister will not say what will happen next year, medium-term planning is impossible. British Shipbuilders will have what the CBI might call a hand-to-mouth existence. At least I agree with the CBI about that.

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Is not the difficulty the fact that the Government's industrial policy is falling down about their ears? For example, 60 per cent. of the value of any ship comes not from work in the shipyards but from the engineering industry. We are witnessing the biggest decline in our engineering industry for half a century. That is the Government's responsibility. Even in this limited area the Government are neglecting opportunities.
It is over a year since the Minister told the House—
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Question.
Mr. Silkin: The Minister made a long statement, of more than four pages. I have the right to reply. I have almost finished my remarks, but I shall take much longer if the hon. Gentleman continues to interrupt from his usual sedentary position.
First, over a year ago the Minister told the House that he would—personally, I believe—encourage public sector ordering. What has happened to that? It is one of the problems that British Shipbuilders face. Secondly, towards the end of his statement he said:
"Only the most substantial and rapid improvements in productivity and efficiency … can give British Shipbuilders the prospect of a viable future."
Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the last three vessels launched were all launched ahead of schedule and within the budget? Is it not about time the Minister put his trust in industry and in British Shipbuilders, instead of trying to stop and stall it at every possible turn?
Finally, I should like to refer to offshore activity and to the fact that BP is supposed to be ordering f100 million of oil rigs from the Far East. Is not part of the difficulty—if not a major difficulty—the fact that our exchange rate is overvalued? Is that not the Government's responsibility? Is it not a fact that during the past year or so Japanese shipbuilding has seen a great upturn, whereas ours has been decreasing? Is it not a fact that the rate against the yen has increased by 45 per cent? Is it not time that the Government dealt with that problem as well?
Mr. Butler: I find it difficult to understand the right hon. Gentleman when he suggests that we are causing British
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Shipbuilders to live a hand-to-mouth existence. Eighteen months ago I announced a two-year programme of support for the industry. Six months before that runs out, I am announcing a further one-year programme of support, which should allow the corporation to plan ahead in the way that it wants.
With regard to public sector ordering, I have made it clear to the House before that there are very limited opportunities for orders, apart from naval orders although some have been brought forward. However, naval orders this year have been 22 per cent. above those for last year. Future orders are not a matter for my Department.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned early launching. I am delighted about early launching. There was an announcement this morning about the early launching at Govan. It is by bringing ships forward on time or meeting schedule dates ahead of time that the corporation will get further orders. I hope that British shipowners and shipowners world-wide will note that considerable improvement.
With regard to the exchange rate, in the first half of this year, despite a high exchange rate, the corporation was able to improve its share of orders taken from 3 per cent. to 5 per cent., which again is a commendable effort.
Mr. Silkin: Would the Minister of State like to correct one of his answers? In his statement he says:
"The Government have therefore agreed to increase British Shipbuilders' external financing limit for the current year from £120 million to £185 million."
It is not for the year ahead.
Mr. Butler: I also announced, as the right hon. Gentleman and the House will be aware, the loss limit for next year and the intervention fund tranche that we propose should be available to British Shipbuilders through to July 1982. If the corporation is not able to take guidance from that, I shall be surprised.
Mr. Cyril Smith: I in no way disagree with the substance of the statement about the amount of extra money to be made available to British Shipbuilders, but can the Minister tell me when the U-turn is not a U-turn?
Mr. Butler: I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman takes part in our shipbuilding debates very often. As I have just said, in July 1979 I announced a programme of support. I am now announcing a continuing programme of support at a declining subsidy level.
Mr. Grylls: Does my hon. Friend agree that the extra £65 million that he has announced today for British Shipbuilders—a 50 per cent. increase—is a serious increase in public expenditure and is worrying in the light of what the Government are trying to do? Does he further agree that what he has told the House today highlights one of the problems of British Shipbuilders—that the corporation has totally failed since nationalisation to obtain any significant foreign naval orders, and that the last two orders—from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait—have gone respectively to France and Germany, which should be of great concern to the Minister and the House? What does my hon. Friend propose to try to ensure that the corporation is more successful in that area?
Mr. Butler: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to identify two reasons why the financial limit has had to be extended. First, the steel strike cost British Shipbuilders directly £14 million and created other indirect costs. A further £25 million or so was due to the rundown in the deposits on naval orders. Because British Shipbuilders has not got further naval orders, those deposits have not been replaced. That is one of the main reasons for the additional cash requirement. The corporation's new chairman is determined to win orders overseas—merchant shipbuilding and naval. I believe that if anybody can do it he can.
Mr. John Evans: Does the Minister accept that his announcement only highlights the incompetence of his Department, the Secretary of State and himself? Is he aware that the cash limit that he earlier announced for the industry was utterly unrealistic and that everyone who knows the industry was aware of that and knew that he would have to come forward with a massive increase? Does he not realise that the shipbuilding industry needs to plan between two and five years ahead and that the corporate plan must cover that period? Does he not
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accept that there must be a Government commitment to supply the necessary finance in such areas of high unemployment? Is he not aware that in addition to the 17,000 who have been made redundant in the industry there are massive further redundancies in industries supplying shipbuilding? Is he aware that we shall not believe that the Government are committed to retaining a British shipbuilding industry until they provide the necessary finance? When will they do that?
Mr. Butler: Our continuing support completely refutes the hon. Gentleman's last point. We have demonstrated that we are prepared to give the industry a chance to bring itself into a viable condition. We are putting very considerable, sums of taxpayers' money behind the industry at the expense of other industries and of jobs elsewhere.
Mr. Emery: Will my hon. Friend tell the House exactly how much money from the Exchequer, after the £65 million has been paid, will have been put into British shipbuilding? In addition, what will have been given from the Exchequer to purchasing companies in support of their orders? Can he give us the total?
Mr. Butler: I cannot give my hon. Friend an exact figure. If he cares to put down a question, I shall supply the figures. The total runs to hundreds of millions of pounds.
Mr. Molyneaux: As the Minister has responded to requests for the retention of the shipbuilding redundancy payments scheme, can he assure us that similar requests will be met with equal sympathy? Will he ensure that Harland and Wolff will be given the opportunity to participate in offshore and defence work orders?
Mr. Butler: The position of orders for Harland and Wolff is not for the Department of Industry. It cannot announce policies for that company.
The practice in regard to the redundancy payments scheme has been that any changes made have related to Northern Ireland. I feel sure that I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the new scheme will apply equally to Northern Ireland.
Mr. Nelson: Will my hon. Friend accept that many of us on the Government Benches warmly support his announcement about the extension of the redundancy payments scheme and take a long-term view of British Shipbuilders? We wish to see it prosper, survive and be supported in the meantime. In considering positive proposals for the future, will my hon. Friend accept that there is an alternative merely to subsidising the capital cost of shipbuilding and providing subsidy from the taxpayer to write off losses and that an important factor for prospective purchasers is the terms of finance? While they are already able to obtain finance preferentially through the Ship Mortgage Finance Company Limited, I believe at 7 per cent., what consideration is he giving now, and what consideration will he give in the future, to improving the rate of interest that prospective purchasers will have to pay?
Mr. Butler: My hon. Friend will know that the export credit terms were increased in line with the OECD understanding last year. As for home sales, the home credit scheme has been working very effectively.
Mr. Gordon Wilson: First will the Minister say to what extent an element exists within the new funding for a continuation of shipbuilding at the Robb Caledon shipyard in Dundee, and for how long it will continue? Secondly, is he not concerned about the prospective loss of drilling rig orders for the yard on the lower Clyde? What proposals does he have to improve incentives to bring those orders to a Scottish shipyard?
Mr. Butler: The question about Robb Caledon, as with any other individual yard, is for the chairman of British Shipbuilders. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the recent discussions and representations. With regard to rig building on the lower Clyde, as I said in my statement, the corporation believes that there is considerable potential in the North Sea and is confident that it can get orders for rigs in the normal commercial way.
Sir Albert Costain: Can my hon. Friend say how much extra cash is required because of the enormous losses made on the Polish ships order which
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was announced by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir. H. Wilson) with such a fanfare of trumpets? Has my hon. Friend taken into account that we now have a Prime Minister who puts the national interest before political expediency?
Mr. Butler: The Polish order does not account for any great part of the extra cash required for this year, but the loss of £40 million on top of massive subsidies clearly damaged the cash position of British Shipbuilders.
Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: In view of the last part of the Minister's statement concerning the high technology offshore industry and his acknowledgment of the excellence of British participation in that industry through dynamically positioned ships and other apparatus for the North Sea, does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that with reference to the specific argument about the purchase of semi-submersibles by BP—one order has already gone to Korea—we shall see on the second order—the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) has referred to the matter and the Minister's reply to the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) is not in line with our understanding—that with the Japanese offering better terms, when, on no other ground are they superior to British industry? Is it not disgraceful that the Government have not changed that position so that we are able equally to beat the Japanese at their own game?
Mr. Butler: There have been reports about BP placing orders in Korea, but I understand that no formal announcement has been made. I know that the chairman of British Shipbuilders is fighting as hard as he can to win an order and future orders in this important area.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: In view of the fiasco over the Polish ships order, the loss of a $1 billion order from Saudi Arabia to the French and our apparent inability to compete on many, if not all, offshore oil rigs, what reason does my hon. Friend have for telling us that next year will be better than last year? A great deal of additional public money is being pushed into public sector losses. How long can any Government continue to subsidise a nationalised flop of this sort?
Mr. Butler: My hon. Friend's view is shared by many, if not all, my hon. Friends. It is not tolerable that the public should be asked to go on subsidising an industry ad infinitum. The policy of the Government is to give the industry an opportunity to get itself straight. My hon. Friend asked what prospects there were of that. The new chairman has already shown his mettle in effecting economies in the running of the business. I believe that there is considerable prospect of his being able, with the help of the unions, to bring about the increases in productivity and efficiency which are necessary. If they are not forthcoming, there is not, as I have said many times, a future for British Shipbuilders.
Mr. Dixon: Does the Minister realise that it costs more public money to put a shipyard worker on the dole than to keep him in work? Does he accept that if there is any further rundown of manpower in the industry it will hit areas such as the Tyne which already have high unemployment rates? Is he aware that my constituency has over 18 per cent. male unemployment, with 50 per cent. of those involved having been on the dole for six months or more? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that in the 18 months since the Government took office there have been more men and women thrown out of work in my constituency than there were in the 18 months before the Jarrow march in 1936? Fourty-four per cent. of my constituents are on rent rebates and 43 per cent. of schoolchildren receive free school meals. Will the hon. Gentleman have a word with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, who is already cutting public expenditure, which will hit constituencies such as mine?
Mr. Butler: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that sort of consideration is taken into account when we decide what support to give British Shipbuilders. Of course, he is right in saying that Jarrow, the lower Clyde and similar areas have high levels of unemployment. However, I must remind the hon. Gentleman of what was said during Prime Minister's Question Time, when my right hon. Friend was reminded of what CBI leaders have said. One reason why we shall have to continue with interest rates
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at a high level is the subsidies that are having to go into the public sector.
Mr. Thornton: On the question of naval orders, I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that there has been no major warship sale since 1977. Does he agree that there is urgent need for discussions between British Shipbuilders and the naval chiefs of staff that may help to remedy the situation and save yards such as Cammell Laird?
Mr. Butler: Yes, and I hope that my hon. Friend will continue to make that point.
Mr. Field: Will the hon. Gentleman say more about the expected employment levels in the industry over the next year? When British Shipbuilders was consulting the Minister over the level of financial support for the coming 12 months it presumably gave him projections of the size of the work force. Will the hon. Gentleman give those projections to the House? Will he also comment on how sensible it is for an industry in which it takes many years to build a ship to have financial statements lasting for only a year? Is he aware that in my constituency Cammell Laird is building in four years a Type 42 frigate which should be built in five years, but that as a result of building it in four years problems have been caused to the Ministry of Defence in making payments out of this year's budget and some men may be laid off?
Mr. Butler: I am aware of the position at Cammell Laird and of the achievement in building the frigate. I remind the hon. Gentleman that one of the main reasons why it was completed ahead of time was that it was built in a covered yard provided by funds from a previous Conservative Government. As for employment levels in the industry, the historic facts speak for themselves, and I cannot give any forecast of future employment levels.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must tell the House that I have a long list of right hon. and hon. Members who hope to participate in the main debate. I also have notice of three Standing Order No. 9 applications. Therefore, I hope that hon. Members will ask brief questions. I may be able to call all those who wish

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to question the Minister, but I am not sure that that will be possible.
Mr. Trotter: Does my hon. Friend accept that he has shown the Government's trust in the industry by the further funding of £185 million? Does he also accept that there is a problem for the industry throughout Western Europe which is meeting competition from places such as Korea, where workers are working 60 or more hours a week for about half the wages that are paid in this country? Does my hon. Friend accept that there has to be a united effort by the countries of Western Europe if that competition is to be dealt with?
Mr. Butler: This matter has received some publicity. The House will know that the share of orders of different countries is kept under review by the OECD. I know that in the case of Japan—I cannot speak of South Korea—the increase in its share of the market has been reported to the OECD and is being kept under review. My hon. Friend has raised a point which will remain with us for some while.
Mr. Robert C. Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman point out to his hon. Friends below the Gangway that the British shipbuilding industry was receiving massive subsidies from the Government when it was in private hands, long before nationalisation? Will he reflect on what has been said about naval orders and bear in mind that any attempt to sell the naval shipbuilding yards would be the death knell for Swan Hunter and other yards on Tyneside which my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) referred to?
Mr. Butler: The industry in private hands had some remarkable achievements. It is right that in recent years some public money was put in. As for the future of the warship yards and the Government's policy of introducing private capital into the shipbuilding industry, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the policy remains that we shall do so at the first appropriate moment.
Mr. Kenneth Carlisle: As my hon. Friend says, much greater productivity is required if British Shipbuilders is ever to be viable. What evidence is there of greater productivity? Surely we need clear evidence, rather than hopes, that this is
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happening if we are to commit more public money.
Mr. Butler: Various productivity schemes are now in operation in the yards, and there is some evidence that they are beginning to bear fruit.
Mr. R. C. Mitchell: In his discussions with British Shipbuilders about future planning, does the Minister estimate that there will be an increase or a decrease in future British naval shipbuilding orders?
Mr. Butler: There is a better chance of an increase in British naval orders under the present Government than there would be under a party that has just voted for unilateral disarmament.
Mr. Kilfedder: In view of the rapid deindustrialisation of Northern Ireland and the unprecedented, agonising and ever-increasing unemployment in the Province, including the loss of jobs in the Belfast shipyard, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government are not set on a course of weakening the Ulster economy beyond repair? He can do that by making sure that the Belfast shipyard survives as a shipyard and not as a manufacturer of domestic appliances.
Mr. Butler: I should like to give my hon. Friend such an assurance, but he knows that Northern Ireland is not my responsibility.
Mr. Douglas: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House the degree of his Department's involvement in the offshore oil market, particularly for semi-submersible rigs? To what degree was it involved in the latest order that the Ben Line placed in Korea? How much is it involved, albeit to support its "Buy British" campaign, in ensuring that British Petroleum will place its second order in the United Kingdom rather than in Korea? This is a very important matter, because the day rate for rigs is rising dramatically. I do not want to anticipate the rate, but it might rise to $100,000 a day. Therefore, the nation will be paying across the exchanges to foreign companies for foreign-built rigs to carry out activity in our own North Sea. No other nation would behave so stupidly.
Mr. Butler: The hon. Gentleman is a member of a party that believes in directing private companies to do things that

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would be against their better commercial interests.
Mr. Douglas: These are national interests.
Mr. Butler: British Shipbuilders must win orders on its merits. I believe that it is capable of doing so.
Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: In the medium-term Financial Statement published at the time of the Budget it was stated that there should be a turn-round of £2,500 million in the financing of the nationalised industries between 1979 and 1984. It was subsequently indicated that British Shipbuilders would play a major part in achieving that turn-round. Does that remain the intention of the Government in general and of the Department of Industry in particular?
Mr. Butler: Certainly the intention of the Government as a whole and of my Department is that British Shipbuilders shall make its contribution. The fact is that what I have announced today is a backward step.
Dr. David Clark: The Minister correctly pointed out that British Shipbuilders had difficulty in attracting merchant ship orders without a subsidy. Will he confirm that every one of our EEC competitors gives subsidies at least as great as ours? When the hon. Gentleman announces support in successive years for attracting orders, will that he done in conjunction with our EEC partners, or is British industry to be put out on a limb, and at risk?
Mr. Butler: Whilst our EEC partners subsidise either their shipbuilders or their ship owners, there is no evidence that they are doing so to a greater extent overall than we are. Evidence of our ability to compete with the other European industries is in the figures that I have already given—that in the first half of this year we increased our share of the world market and the other EEC countries reduced theirs.
Mr. Bill Walker: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government's action in increasing the funds available to British shipyards destroys the myth that is being spread around that the Government are out to destroy the shipyards of Britain
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and, in particular, those of Scotland? Does he also agree that if there were a more responsible attitude from the Opposition towards defence expenditure, Scotland, which depends so much on defence expenditure, would benefit much more?
Mr. Butler: I agree on all three counts.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I do not propose to call those hon. Members who have only just started rising. It is not fair to the House.
Mr. Robert Hughes: In successive statements the Minister has repeatedly spoken of the need for increased productivity, and he has often referred to good industrial relations. Does he accept that he would do much more good for British Shipbuilders if he emphasised the great increase in productivity and the big improvement in industrial relations that have already taken place? It is the yards that have made the best increase in productivity that now face redundancies. What will the Government do to encourage both British Shipbuilders and particular shipyards by placing Government orders as soon as possible?
Mr. Butler: I am happy again to pay tribute to the improvement in industrial relations. It is true that there has been an improvement, and it continues. It is not correct that there have been improvements in productivity, partly because of under-utilisation of capacity. My view about scope for an improvement in productivity is very much shared by the unions.
Mr. Lee: What instruction has my hon. Friend given the chairman of British Shipbuilders about the possible disposal of assets, with a view to improving productivity?
Mr. Butler: I am not statutorily able to order the chairman of British Shipbuilders to dispose of assets, but I have made it clear to him that I expect him to raise some of his funds from the disposal of assets. I know that to be his intention, so far as his statutory duties allow.
Mr. Dewar: In view of the widespread understanding that the first BP semi-submersible rig order is going to Korea and the known fact that Ben Line has

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ordered a similar vessel from Korea, will the Minister explain on what he bases his confidence that British Shipbuilders will be able to secure the second BP order? For the credibility of British Shipbuilders in the offshore field, it is essential that that second order comes to it. Will the hon. Gentleman please repeat—because I could hardly believe my ears—what I gathered from his earlier remarks, namely, that British Shipbuilders does not wish to have Government help in an attempt to bridge the gap between foreign ordering prices and our own?
Mr. Butler: I shall check Hansard, as the hon. Gentleman will. I do not believe that I said what he suggested. I do not know whether British Ship-builders will secure the BP order. I believe that it has very good prospects of doing so. It would help enormously in its future sales efforts.
Mr. Budgen: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is now clear that his Department will far exceed the expenditure planned in the public expenditure White Paper, published at the time of the Budget? In particular, expenditure by the taxpayer on steel, aerospace and shipbuilding will this year far exceed £191 million. That figure cannot possibly be reduced to £80 million in the next financial year, nor is it likely to be reduced to £20 million in the financial year after that.
Mr. Butler: I share my hon. Friend's concern about the necessity to spend money in this way.
Mr. English: May I apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, for inadvertently referring earlier to "the right hon. Gentleman" I understand that I should have described the Minister as "the hon. Gentleman" That makes my point. Why was not a Cabinet Minister delegated with the duty of announcing that the Government are proposing to spend a large part of the subsidy out of moneys not approved by the House, either before or subsequently?
Will the hon. Gentleman please explain to us, as a former Parliamentary Private Secretary to the present Prime Minister, why he is given the job of announcing that the Government are doing this on their own authority out of moneys that
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will not be subjected to parliamentary approval? That is exactly what was criticised in the previous Parliament by his own party.
Mr. Butler: First, the hon. Gentleman should be aware that during the present Parliament I have made all the statements on British Shipbuilders' finances, as the Minister of State with prime responsibility for shipbuilding. As to the announcement this afternoon and the additional money, I am informed that that is entirely following normal procedure.
Mr. English: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. That must not be allowed to go.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am afraid that it will. The Minister is responsible for his own reply.
Mr. Marlow: Excluding the cost of redundancy payments, will my hon. Friend be kind enough to tell the House how much public money, in the form of any subsidy whatever, including money from Europe—because if that is not spent on this, according to the terms of the agreement with the Prime Minister it can be spent on something else—is being spent this year in British Shipbuilders per person currently employed in British Shipbuilders'? If my hon. Friend does not have those figures at his fingertips, perhaps he would be kind enough to give an estimate, or even an answer in the Official Report.
Further, will my hon. Friend tell us what the chairman of British Shipbuilders said last year about this year, and in the event what happened, and, therefore, why we should pay a lot of attention to what the chairman of British Shipbuilders says this year about next year?
Mr. Butler: I do not have the figures immediately at my fingertips. I should be delighted to let my hon. Friend have them. As I have already said in answer to one of my hon. Friends, the amount of money that has been put into British Shipbuilders in recent years has run to many hundreds of millions of pounds. Indeed, the Select Committee—the Public Accounts Committee, I think—drew attention to the fact that the figure of support was equal to, if not in excess of the wages per head of each employee.

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Concerning my confidence in the new chairman, he has so far shown, in the few months for which he has had that responsibility, that he is capable of bringing this industry round, and I give him all support and wish him well.
Dr. John Cunningham: Since it is widely believed among shipbuilders throughout the world that an upturn is now coming in likely orders for vessels, surface vessels and rigs, and the like, is not the real problem for British Shipbuilders, contrary to what the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) suggests, that it does not have enough money to invest per capita, because most of the money that is being spent is simply going down the drain in closure expenditure and redundancy payments? Is not the whole basis of the capital programme of British Shipbuilders totally inadequate to help it meet the challenge that the Minister is suggesting it should meet?
Will the Minister explain how British Shipbuilders can improve productivity when it does not have orders? Is it not the case that no Norwegian rigs and no rigs working in the Mexican Gulf are built in the Far East? What has been the purpose of British Shipbuilders improving its technical competence and its capability to produce highly sophisticated vessels for the British sector of the North Sea if the level of sterling and—as the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Nelson) rightly says—the financial provisions from Japan and Korea are such as to make orders in British yards wholly unattractive to British companies? Are not the Government responsible for all these things, in some measure?
Mr. Butler: I am delighted if the hon. Gentleman is right in assuming that there is an upturn round the corner. My own view is that that is not likely to be the case in the immediate future, but it remains to be seen. The capital programme will continue at more or less the present level.
The hon. Gentleman asked how productivity can be improved if British Shipbuilders do not have orders. The fact is that it does have orders at present, and it has continuity. It is necessary, of course, that it continues—[Interruption.] It is necessary that British Shipbuilders follow up that very successful order position in
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the first half of this year with a further batch.
As for competition with the Far East, I believe that what the Government are doing is a proper use of public money, but I cannot envisage further sums being available in the way that the hon. Gentleman might wish.
Dr. Cunningham: We cannot accept that. Scott Lithgow does not have continuity of ordering. Scott Lithgow is now building the most sophisticated offshore vessel that is being built anywhere in the world, but it does not have a subsequent order. Cammell Laird does not have any continuity of orders for offshore vessels, either. For the Minister of State to tell the House that continuity exists is grossly to mislead the House. He must know that that is not true.
This is the whole problem facing British Shipbuilders. It cannot possibly improve productivity without such continuity, and there is little sign of the Government doing anything to help it to get it.
Mr. Butler: The problem with the hon. Gentleman's first question was that he shifted his ground. I apologise to him for the fact that when he talked about orders I thought that he was referring to merchant shipbuilding, to which my answer referred. It is quite right that in terms of offshore orders there is not continuity. That is why the hon. Member's hon. Friends and my hon. Friends know the importance of getting this BP order.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call those hon. Members making applications under Standing Order No. 9 in the order in which the applications were received.

NORMA BERNARDO
Mr. Ron Brown: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the situation concerning a constituent, Norma Bernardo, who will be deported from this country on 20 November as an alleged illegal entrant."
I think that the House should look at the details of this case. Today is the last possible time for a debate to take

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place before Norma Bernardo leaves the United Kingdom. While obviously she has the right of appeal, she must first return to the Philippines before that can be put into action.
I hope to have your support, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps quoting or misquoting Burns, I hope that the House will agree with me and understand the point about man's inhumanity to women and, in particular to Norma Bernardo, because this is an issue which must be discussed.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown) gave me notice this morning before 12 o'clock that he would seek to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely, the proposed deportation of his constituent, Norma Bernardo.
I listened with concern to what the hon. Member had to say. I also had the advantage of reading the report of the debate that took place last night on the general issue.
The House has instructed me to give no reasons for my decision. I have to rule that the hon. Gentleman's submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order, and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.
Mr. Hooley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It might be helpful to other hon. Members if you could indicate how many applications under Standing Order No. 9 are likely to come before the House during the next half hour.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must have left the Chamber for a moment. A few minutes ago I indicated that there are three applications.

DEPORTATIONS
Mr. William Hamilton: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the imminent deportation of a considerable number of persons, mainly Filipinos, many of whom have been resident in the United Kingdom for several years."
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As the House will probably know, I am a sponsored Member of the Confederation of Health Service Employees. That union has provided me with the names and case histories of eight of its members, all of whom are faced with the imminent threat of deportation. For obvious reasons, I cannot put their names on the record, but the Minister is aware of them. I can provide him with the names and where they are employed if he wishes. Suffice to say that they currently work in National Health Service hospitals in various capacities‖nurses, State enrolled nurses, nursing assistants, domestic assistants and so on.
Perhaps I may quote sufficient evidence to enable the Minister to identify the people concerned. One example concerns a couple threatened with deportation as long ago as 22 September. I understand that the decision is now being delayed pending consideration of representations made by COHSE, other organisations and individuals in the meantime.
Another of the persons to whom I shall refer was threatened with deportation on Sunday, 22 October. Further representations have been made in that case by COHSE and other organisations and a decision is imminent.
In the third case, the date of deportation had been fixed for 28 August. That, too, was deferred following representations by the organisations to which I referred.
The fourth case concerns a couple whose deportation decision is awaiting the result of representations made by their Member of Parliament.
All these cases are known to the Home Department. These clearly are specific cases, and therefore they are covered by that part of the Standing Order.
That the matter is urgent is clear. The urgency must be apparent from what I have said.
I, too, have read the Minister's speech—in fact, I listened to the greater part of the debate—but it did not pacify me in the slightest. On the contrary, despite what the Minister of State said last night, the exchange this afternoon gave the clear impression that he is under great pressure from his own party within and outside the House, to send people home.
Mr. Marlow: Quite right.
Mr. Hamilton: I hear the interjection "Quite right". Let those who say that understand that there is such a thing as humanitarianism and also discretion on the part of the Minister. The Minister, in the latter part of his speech yesterday, said that he was seeking to exercise discretion in the name of humanity in those cases. That is my appeal to him.
I submit that the Adjournment debate yesterday was not an adequate alternative to a major debate. We cannot discuss legislative proposals in an Adjournment debate whereas we can in a major debate.
I do not need to labour the point that matters relating to civil and human rights are, or should be, important to the House. The problems of minorities are worthy of the most serious consideration by Parliament. The decisions to deport these people may be taken during the time that Parliament is not in session, between the end of today and next Thursday. The Secretary of State may decide to deport these people within the next seven days and there will be no redress. That is why I seek an immediate debate on these matters.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman gave me notice before 12 noon that he would seek leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely, the imminent deportation of a considerable number of people, mainly Filipinos.
The hon. Gentleman has brought to the notice of the House, as did his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown), a matter of the utmost concern to the people involved. The House has, in the main, listened with concern to what has been said. It has also instructed me to take into account the several factors set out in the order, but to give no reasons for my decision.
I listened carefully and anxiously to the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), but I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

SHIPBUILDING (CONTINGENCIES FUND)
Mr. English: Like my hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown) and Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), I should like to draw to your attention, Mr. Speaker, in accordance with Standing Order No. 9, to a specific and important matter which should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the statement by Her Majesty's Government that they regard as a normal procedure the proposed use of the Contingencies Fund, without the authority of Parliament, to subsidise the British shipbuilding industry."
I shall not—I am sure that you, Mr. Speaker, would rule me out of order if I did—refer to the merits or demerits of subsidising the British shipbuilding industry. I refer solely to the question how public money is spent and is authorised to be spent and the fact that the Minister stated that he was using a normal procedure.
Standing Order No. 9(4) states:
"In determining whether a matter is proper to be discussed Mr. Speaker shall have regard to the extent to which it concerns the administrative responsibilities of Ministers of the Crown".
There is a certain ambiguity in that statement. I am sure that you, Mr. Speaker, as the protector of the rights of the House, will realise what that ambiguity is. Obviously it must be something done by the Government, otherwise we are wasting the time of the House. Equally, it may be something that is of concern to the House which should not be done by the Government without the authority of the House. I submit that this is a case in point.
Standing Order No. 9(4) goes on to state:
"In determining whether a matter is urgent Mr. Speaker shall have regard to the probability of the matter being brought before the House … by other means."
There is no possibility of this matter being brought before the House in this Session unless you, Mr. Speaker, in your wisdom, grant this application. If you do, it will not interfere with the subsequent debate because that will be given additional time. If you do not, it is likely that the Session will end without discussion of this matter. If a debate were allowed, it would possibly fill in the

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time while we were waiting for any Lords messages.
The more important point is that there were reports by the Expenditure, Procedure and Public Accounts Committees in the last Parliament pointing out that the use of the Contingencies Fund in this regard is a matter of dubious legality. Since that time, the former Expenditure Committee has requested and obtained the advice of a large number of constitutional lawyers throughout the United Kingdom. I should not be telling the truth if I did not admit that, as often happens, the opinions of those lawyers were mixed. Some regarded it as permissible in law; others did not, and felt that the matter would have to be tested in the courts. That illustrates that what the Government regard as a normal procedure is regarded by half the constitutional lawyers of the United Kingdom as a totally illegal procedure.
The Contingencies Fund amounted to about £100,000 until the First World War. It was increased during the Second World War, then reduced, and subsequently increased again. I do not want to go into those details. The point at issue is that it is of dubious legality whether Her Majesty's Government, on their own authority, may spend money on a political and possibly arguable cause without seeking the approval of Parliament. The same may have been true of previous Governments, and it was said by the Public Accounts Committee that that should not have been done by a previous Government
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of my own party. I think that you will accept, Mr. Speaker, that I am putting forward this matter on behalf of the House of Commons as a whole and not on behalf of my own party, the Conservative Party or any other group in this House.
I submit that this is totally wrong. The rights of the House of Commons are being eroded. The day has been chosen deliberately—the last day of the Session. A junior Minister has been put up to say it. I submit that you are the last recourse, Mr. Speaker. Your granting this request is the only means whereby we can debate the issue.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) gave me notice after the statement by the Minister of State, Department of Industry, that he would be seeking leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the statement of Her Majesty's Government that they regarded it as normal to use the Contingencies Fund without the authority of Parliament.
The hon. Gentleman, who is well versed in our procedures, raised a very important question, and I listened with deep interest and concern to what he said.
However, I have to take into account many different factors, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I regret to have to tell him that I must rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order and, therefore, that I cannot submit his application to the House.

EMPLOYMENT (PICKETING AND CLOSED SHOP)
4.41 pm
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. James Prior): I beg to move,
That the draft Code of Practice on Picketing, which was laid before this House on 5 November, be approved.
Mr. Speaker: It will probably be for the convenience of the House if, with this, we discuss the other motion—
That the draft Code of Practice on Closed Shop Agreements and Arrangements, which was laid before this House on 5 November, be approved.
That appears to be agreed.
Mr. Prior: Throughout the debates in Parliament, both in this House and in the other place, on what is now the Employment Act, the Government always emphasised that, while changes in the law were essential, legal reforms in themselves could never solve all our industrial relations problems. The ultimate responsibility for improving industrial relations must rest with industry. That means that responsibility rests principally with managements and unions and with employers and employees. It is important in today's debate on the codes that this is remembered.
I want the House to be clear at the outset what we are debating. We are not debating new legislation. Today's debate is on the guidance which, as Secretary of State, I feel it is important to give those concerned on the closed shop and on picketing, which section 3 of the Employment Act enables me to do. Therefore, I reiterate that the codes that we are debating do not extend the law: they give practical guidance. The Employment Act makes their status quite clear. There can be no question that in some way we are now indulging in what some people have termed back-door legislation. We are giving common sense guidance which, I believe, the vast majority of people in industry, whether in management or on the shop floor, will welcome.
We must always remember that industrial relations in Britain have not developed within the same kind of legal framework as that which exists in many other countries. Industrial relations practice has evolved over a century or more and has
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done so primarily as the result of the day-to-day dealings of managements and union representatives. On the whole, the tendency has been for the law to accommodate or at any rate to reflect these developments rather than for a tight legal framework to dictate them. That is borne out very much in the remarks which Donovan made in the Royal Commission report.
The result may be regarded by some as being far from perfect, but it has to be the starting point for any attempt to change, and, as regards today's debate, it is our existing system of industrial relations which must be the setting in which we discuss the draft codes of practice.
It would be of no use to managements and the shop floor throughout industry if they were to be denied the guidance contained in these draft codes because Parliament concluded that the existing legal framework was still not right. I know that some Opposition Members are opposed to the Employment Act. I say "some" advisedly, because I am not sure how many of them would really want to see it repealed.
But the House has to consider whether, on balance, it will benefit industrial relations in the months ahead if these draft codes are published and are available to managements and unions. Those who argue against the codes today should be in no doubt about what they are proposing. The result of Parliament not endorsing these codes would be that managements and unions were denied the valuable advice on closed shops and picketing which the draft codes contain and which I believe should be available to them.
To those who may argue that basically they favour the idea of codes but wish to see them changed first, I say that we have consulted widely, and I shall return to that later. We have adopted many of the changes suggested and we believe that the draft codes fulfil our objectives. We have weighed the various arguments about the timing, and we are convinced that the sooner they are available now that we have consulted on them, the better it will be. This is not to say that, at some future date and in the light of practical experience, it might not be advisable to amend or revise the codes. But I do not feel that there are any amendments or changes which argue for

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any delay in issuing them, and I hope that as a result of our debate the House will feel able to endorse my judgment.
Mr. John Evans: The Secreretary of State is making much of the point that he has consulted widely. Will he confirm that one body which he has not consulted is Parliament itself?
Mr. Tony Marlow: What else is my. right hon. Friend doing now?
Mr. Evans: During the Committee stage of the Employment Bill the point was made to the right hon. Gentleman that before publishing codes in this form he should consult Parliament so that the codes of practice which came out of such deliberations were the wish of Parliament and not the partisan codes issued by the Secretary of State. For the benefit of Government supporters, will the right hon. Gentleman point out that Parliament cannot amend these codes? We accept or reject them in toto.
Mr. Prior: My hon. Friends do not need the benefit of that advice. They know that already. They also know that there has been a longish consultative period and that the Select Committee on Employment has had consultations. I have been before the Select Committee on two occasions to discuss the codes. We are following what has been the general practice in this case.
Mr. Ernie Ross: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question about consultation?
Mr. Prior: I shall be coming back to that later in my remarks. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to deal with it then.
There is another crucial point to be made about our decision. It was sometimes argued during the debates on the Employment Bill that there was a sharp, clearcut choice facing the Government between a legislative approach and a voluntary one. But that view misses the whole point.
The fact is that for the voluntary approach to work and for voluntary guidance to stick there has to be a balanced and fair set of ground rules in the law on which that voluntary guidance is based. As long as the law was seen to condone and even protect the abuse of industrial
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power on the picketing line and in the closed shop, it would have been futile to look for improvement in industrial relations by voluntary means alone.
Our approach is that voluntary measures will work only within a just framework of law. That is our approach, and it is an approach widely understood and endorsed in the nation. I cannot believe that many Opposition Members really want to go back to a position of licence for abuse with no scope for redress. The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) was very careful to avoid any commitment to total repeal of the Act when we debated it earlier in the Session—all to no avail as it happened, since the then Leader of the Opposition saw the issue in a rather different light.
On many issues, good practice must be a matter of informal understanding, of day-to-day compromise and adjustment. But on some issues the need for formal, authoritative guidance is clear. The Labour Government showed no hesitation in this respect. Section 6 of the Employment Protection Act 1975 conferred a power on ACAS to issue
"Codes of Practice containing such practical guidance as the Service thinks fit for the purpose of promoting the improvement of industrial relations".
Under that power, ACAS produced the code of disciplinary practices and procedures. In addition, the 1975 Act laid a duty on ACAS to prepare codes on the disclosure of information and time off for trade union duties. All three codes are still in operation.
Of course, when it came to questions like picketing and the closed shop the attitude of trade unions was rather different. There was much passion about trade union rights and freedoms at that time, particularly from the new Leader of the Opposition. So there was plenty of enthusiasm for legislation to give licence to the closed shop and to the picket but no interest in any guidance on how to use it in a sensible and responsible way until the winter before last, when, suddenly and dramatically, they got very keen on the TUC issuing guidance on the closed shop and the conduct of industrial disputes.
Mr. Harold Walker: The right hon. Gentleman, in all fairness, should point out that it is ACAS which

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refused to have anything to do with codes of practice on the closed shop or picketing. He should point out that ACAS is a statutorily independent body with an independence beyond that of any other body provided for in statute. The ACAS codes provided for under the Employment Protection Act are to be used only in tribunals and before the Central Arbitration Committee, composed not of judicial figures but of people engaged in the day-to-day work of industry, unlike the right hon. Gentleman's code, which can be used in the courts.
Mr. Prior: I am coming to that point. There is, therefore, no shortage of precedents for the draft codes we are debating today.
The power to issue codes conferred on me by section 3 of the Employment Act is identical with the power conferred on ACAS by the 1975 Act. There are older precedents—for example, the highway code, first established in 1930, and the powers under which the code of industrial relations practice was issued in 1972. The precedent of the 1972 code is particularly relevant to today's debate. It was opposed root and branch by the TUC because of its opposition to the parent legislation, the 1971 Act. Yet the major part of the code is still in operation today, even though the 1971 Act was swept away by the Labour Party when in Government six years ago.
It can hardly be said that this is the first time that the House has been asked to approve a code which deals with a controversial subject or which is opposed by the TUC or has been prepared by a Government Minister rather than a tripartite body, such as ACAS. Controversy is very difficult to avoid in any effort to lift conduct on to a higher plane and it cannot be allowed to act as a veto on the mutually beneficial search for improved behaviour in industrial relations. The truth is that there would be little point in attempting to codify practice in this or in any other field if there were universal agreement and understanding on the best way to handle the problems.
Mr. John Gorst: Despite what my right hon. Friend says, is
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it not a fact that, although the ACAS codes that were produced were the subject of controversy, they were not projected by any one side within that controversy? They were generally accepted by both the employers and the trade unions. It will surely cause considerable difficulty to ACAS when, for example, the CAC is required to adjudicate in a matter in which the codes of practice have to be taken into consideration. Being a part of ACAS will make it difficult for it to reconcile its earlier stand with the latest requirements of the Minister.
Mr. Prior: I have heard no criticism to that effect. I am not saying that the ACAS codes were particularly controversial. I am pointing out that it was the 1972 code that was controversial and which the TUC fought all the way. Despite its controversial nature, it was introduced by a Minister and, strangely enough, largely kept by the Opposition when they swept away the rest of the Industrial Relations Act.
I should like to say a word about the legal status and effect of the codes. This is clearly defined in section 3 of the Employment Act and again is closely modelled on the parallel provisions in the Employment Protection Act 1975. Section 3(8) of the Employment Act says that the codes are to be admissible in evidence before courts and tribunals but that it is for the court or tribunal to decide whether they are relevant to a particular case. If the court decides that they are relevant—or that a particular provision in one of the codes is relevant—it has a duty to take it into account in exactly the same way as it must take account of any other relevant evidence. Furthermore, section 3 makes it clear that the codes do not by themselves make anyone liable to legal proceedings. In other words, ignoring or contravening the codes does not by itself mean that someone is committing an offence or acting unlawfully. The legal status of these codes is similar to the legal status of the existing ACAS codes and of the 1972 code.
I turn now to the procedure to be followed in preparing the codes. In accordance with that procedure, I informed ACAS of my intention and invited it to contribute any suggestions it might like to put forward. The chairman replied that ACAS did not intend to prepare

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codes on these subjects and that since there was
"no consensus on the council as to the possible content of such codes, the council also decided that it should not put forward suggestions for inclusion in the codes".
When, later, I sent the consultative drafts to ACAS, the chairman confirmed that the council did not wish to comment on them. That is no reflection on ACAS. It was always clear that ACAS would not be in a position to prepare codes on picketing and the closed shop. That is why the Act confers the code-making power on the Secretary of State rather than on ACAS. That was foreseen by the Government long before we entered upon this legislation.
As the House knows, I published the draft codes for general consultation on 8 August as soon as the Act came into operation. I could not do so before. More than 70 organisations and individuals submitted detailed comments, including all those one would have expected.
I gave evidence to the Select Committee on Employment in August, and I agreed to extend the period for consultation so that the Committee could take evidence from a number of witnesses and prepare a report commenting on the draft codes. I have placed in the Library a memorandum responding to the Committee's report.
I am grateful to all those who took part in the consultations. I have accepted many of the suggestions put to me, and I believe that the draft codes before the House today are greatly improved as a result. The overwhelming majority of those who commented on the draft codes expressed their full support for them and the guidance they contain.
Turning now to the provisions of the codes, the guidance they give covers the law and good practice—as do the TUC guides. The codes would be hopelessly incomplete if they did not. The law is highly important in both areas and much of it is not set down in statute. Much of it is a matter of common law which has been evolving for a century or so, and, of course, the statute law governing both picketing and the closed shop has recently changed. Ignorance and misunderstanding of the law can be a potent source of conflict. If these codes do no
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more than spread knowledge of the law, they will have served a very useful purpose.
I have accepted the criticism put forward by the Select Committee that the consultative drafts did not distinguish clearly enough between explanation of the law and guidance on good practice. I have a number of changes to meet this criticism. Paragraph 4 of the code now identifies those sections which deal with the law and those which deal with good practice.
I believe that the codes will promote the improvement of industrial relations because they are firmly based on existing good practice. For example, the sections of the picketing code which give guidance on the organisation of picketing and the need to safeguard essential supplies and services draw heavily on existing trade union guidance—both the TUC guide of 1979 and the Transport and General Workers Union code of the same year. Also, almost all the items in the list of essential supplies are drawn from one or the other of the codes. The need for a picket organiser and the need for him to have letters of authority from his union and for the pickets to wear arm-hands or some other means of identification are taken from the TUC giude.
Mr. Marlow: In case my right hon. Friend does not return to picketing later, may I ask him whether he will comment in section C of the code, which says that it is a criminal offence
"to intimidate a person by threatening words or behaviour which cause him to fear harm or damage"?
It would be helpful if my right hon. Friend could give us an interpretation. For instance, if a picket goes up to a lorry driver, grasps him warmly by the hand, smiles at him, pats him on the back and says "If you pass this line, mate, you will never work again. I have got your number", will that count as intimidation?
Mr. Prior: That must be for the courts to decide. We are laying down a code of practice. My hon. Friend should also examine the code of practice on the closed shop. If a man crosses a picket line lawfully, or the picket line is unlawful, and the union expels him and he loses his job, it is clear that the man

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will have been expelled unreasonably. He would have recourse to the law. If one takes the two situations together, it is clear that we have met the point so far as we can. However, this is a matter for the law and for the courts. It is not for me to interpret.
Mr. Marlow: Might it not help the courts if my right hon. Friend expressed a view?
Mr. Prior: Certainly not. That would not help. I am trying to avoid such a difficulty. That is not the purpose of the codes.
Of course, it is for the courts to interpret and apply the law, as paragraph 4 of the codes clearly points out. The guidance within the codes is directed primarily at management and trade unions and, if followed sensibly, should help keep problems out of the courts. But they may be found to be relevant from time to time as evidence one way or another by tribunals and the courts.
I cannot see that anyone will be confused as to the meaning of the law by the codes themselves. When examining the circumstances of a case, the courts are capable of distinguishing law passed by the legislature which binds them in their judgments and practical guidance which they may consider as evidence—weighty evidence, of course, as it has been regarded here, but not binding law. That seems to me to be a fairly clear distinction, which makes talk of this as some odd form of "unconstitutional" legislation look pretty far fetched.
Furthermore, I do not believe that these codes set unrealistic standards. Take the provision of the picketing code which has aroused most interest—the suggested limit of six people on a picket line. Whenever the police are available, pickets should seek their directions as to where they should stand and how many of them should be on the picket line. That is the surest guarantee that the picketing will be orderly and peaceful.
The police have the power—well established in case law—to limit numbers on the picket line if they fear a breach of the peace. In one case—that of Piddington v Bates—the court upheld the decision of the policeman on the spot to limit the number of pickets to two. The code does
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not—indeed, cannot—affect the powers of the police to limit numbers. At the suggestion of the Association of Chief Police Officers, we have emphasised this point in paragraph 28 of the code. But if the police are not present at a picket line—and they cannot always be—it is essential for the code to give some guidance on numbers—but not a rigid or fixed limit. No single figure would be right for every situation.
The picket organiser will have to consider such factors as the width of the entrance and the number of people or lorries passing through it. Frequently two or three pickets will be quite sufficient. But in the vast majority of cases it should not be more than six. Greater numbers than that will, as the code points out, give rise to fear and resentment amongst those who are picketed, even if there is no question of obstruction or some other offence being committed.
Mass picketing is never in the interests of good industrial relations. That was the clear view of the vast majority of people who commented on the draft code. The limit of six has been widely welcomed, and I believe it to be right and an essential element in this code.
I shall make one preliminary point about the closed shop code which has arisen in the consultations. It has been said that the Government are biased against the closed shop and that this emerges in the code. The Government's attitude is well known. We do not like the closed shop.
Mr. Nick Budgen: In section C of the closed shop code, considerable restrictions are suggested by the Government in respect of the closed shop. Surely, people who believe that the closed shop is an important part of their industrial structure are entitled to carry on just as they like until proper legislation is passed.
Mr. Prior: They are. The issue will become clear as I develop my speech.
The purpose of the code is not to give gratuitous vent to our dislike but to provide sound practical advice to those who are or who may be considering entering into a closed shop agreement so that they can be aware of every factor. The broad aim is to ensure that together with

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the provisions of the 1980 Act basic individual rights are properly protected. We have made many changes of tone and substance to the draft but none which detracts from this general aim.
The structure of the closed shop code is broadly similar to that of the picketing code. Again, the code distinguishes clearly between what is the law and what is good practice. Section B consists of an explanation of the legal rights of individuals affected by the closed shop, and the other sections give guidance on matters relating to it.
For the convenience of the House, I shall draw attention to some of the matters covered in the code which have attracted significant comment during the consultative period. First, I should say that the opening subsections of section C of the code—with which my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) was concerned—dealing with the preliminary stage before considering a closed shop, the scope and contents of agreements, secret ballots and the operation of new or existing agreements, have received a wide measure of support. There have, of course, been a number of detailed points which we have taken into account in the redrafted code.
The final subsection of section C—the review of closed shop agreements and arrangements—is, as the House is well aware, more controversial. Some of those consulted would have preferred employers and unions to be required to review their arrangements by statute. That is an argument which we had many times before and may have in the future, but clearly the code could not impose such a requirement. Indeed, if it had sought to do so it would have been highly criticised as unconstitutional. Others wanted the code to specify exactly how often closed shop agreements should be reviewed and how such reviews might be triggered. In my view, it would have been inappropriate to go into such detail in the context of voluntary guidance. Most people wanted more, not less, flexibility, and we have met that point, but not to the extent of providing no guidance at all.
Closed shop agreements can affect the working life of an employee in a more fundamental way than perhaps any other kind of agreement. It is, therefore, all the more important to ensure that, like other agreements, they are reviewed periodically
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to take account of changing circumstances and to ensure that they have the continued support of the employees they cover.
Section D of the code, which deals with the treatment of members and applicants by unions, has also been fairly widely commented upon. The subsection covering union rules and procedures has met with broad approval and, indeed, leans heavily on the principles adopted by the TUC. This section of the code also refers to the Bridlington procedures and thus fulfils a commitment made during the course of earlier debates. I never believed it really credible that the Act, as was alleged, could undermine the Bridlington procedures, and I believe that the references in the code to Bridlington further close the door on any remote residual possibility of that happening.
Paragraphs 54 and 55 of the revised code deal with disciplinary action, or the threat of it, by a union against a member who refuses to take part in industrial action. This is a difficult area, but I believe that there is a wide recognition among employers and unionists that it is wrong for closed shops to be used explicitly or implicitly as a means of compelling an individual to take industrial action which he objects to on the grounds that it would involve a breach of the law, would be in breach of a procedure agreement or had not been approved in a secret ballot.
Again, let me make clear that this is guidance for unions which the tribunals will take into account--not necessarily be bound by, but take into account—. in relevant cases of expulsion. It does not prevent unions from striking in breach of agreements or without holding secret ballots, though, of course, that is something I should want strongly to discourage. It is a warning to unions that if they expel members—perhaps in the circumstances mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow)—they may find that tribunals award against them. It is a reassurance to those in a closed shop who honestly cannot support industrial action because it falls foul of the criminal law, is in breach of a procedure agreement or is not sanctioned by ballot.
We have, of course, listened carefully to what has been said to us on this, particularly by the CBI, the EEF and trade

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unions, and have amended the guidance on expulsion from a union for crossing a picket line so that it does not apply where action is taken against a member for crossing a picket authorised by his own union at his own place of work. We have no wish—far from it—to undermine legitimate and responsibly exercised trade union authority.
Mr. John Evans: The Secretary of State has raised an issue of some concern. He referred to the disciplining of an individual by a trade union if the individual had refused to strike because, for instance, a secret ballot had not been held. Will the right hon. Gentleman say which section of the Employment Act 1980 lays upon a trade union the requirement to hold a secret ballot before industrial action can be taken?
Mr. Prior: I am not sure that I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. Paragraph 54 of the code states:
"Disciplinary action should not be taken or threatened by a union against a member on the grounds of refusal to take part in industrial action called for by the union—
(a) or because industrial action would involve a breach of a statutory duty or the criminal law,"
The hon. Gentleman is trying to pin something on us that is not there.
Mr. Evans: Paragraph 54 (c) refers to a union taking disciplinary action against a member who refused to strike because it had not been sanctioned by a secret ballot. The Secretary of State will appreciate that we had many arguments, both in Committee and on Report, especially from some of his hon. Friends, about the requirement for a secret ballot before industrial action could be taken. Will he say what section in the Employment Act 1980 lays upon a trade union the requirement to hold a secret ballot before it may take industrial action? Surely this is incompatible.
Mr. Prior: I have been especially careful about this matter. There is no section in the Employment Act 1980 that provides that there must be a secret ballot. I have made it perfectly plain again today that the code is advice to unions and is not the law. I have made it perfectly plain that it does not prevent unions striking in breach of agreements or without holding secret ballots, although that is something
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that I wish strongly to discourage. It is a warning to them that if they do that in those circumstances it can be taken into account when a case is brought before an industrial tribunal. That is perfectly fair and reasonable advice to give to trade unions.
I must refer to the final section of the code, which cocerns the freedom of the press. The 1980 Act gives me powers to repeal the press charter provision of the 1976 Act, and it has been my firm view that the provisions of the Act and the relevant section of the code would provide far greater protection for journalists faced with the possibility of the closed shop than any press charter could have done.
On Second Reading last year, I said that I would not intend to use the power of repeal until those in the industry had had the opportunity of seeing our draft code. The relevant provisions of the code draw heavily on the outcome of the talks among the parties in the industry held under the chairmanship of Lord Pearce and comment has been generally favourable. Nobody has suggested that the press charter provision should be retained or acted upon.
Subject to approval of the closed shop code by both Houses, I therefore now propose to use the power conferred on me by the 1980 Act to proceed to repeal the requirement to produce a press charter.
Sir Albert Costain: My right hon. Friend said that the codes will be subject to revision as events prove necessary. What will be the procedure for revision? Will it be announced in the House or in the London Gazette?
Mr. Prior: There would be a consultative period. I would announce that to the House. I would then lay fresh draft codes, first for consultation and later for the approval of the House. I hope that the codes will work without the need for further revision. However, I know enough about industrial relations to know that we are not dealing with a static position. If we get ourselves into a static position, we are wrong. I am asking the House to pass these codes and to give them a chance to work. If there are faults in them—although I do not think that there will be—that will be the time to

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consider them again. That is by far the best way to proceed in difficult and delicate matters.
Mr. Marlow rose—
Mr. Prior: Not again.
Mr. Marlow: I wish to raise a point on the important matter of the review clause. The document says that reviews should take place "every few years". That may be the appropriate way to deal with it in the document. Will my right hon. Friend give his advice about how frequently should be "every few years" in normal circumstances? Should it be every three years?
Mr. Prior: I am not prepared to give advice on that point, simply because any number of people in the consultations suggested any number of different computations. During the course of the debates in the House, as my hon. Friend knows only too well, a period of three years was suggested. A number of people, especially on the employers' side—the EEF, the CBI, the Ford Motor Company and others—said that they wanted no stipulation for a period of years. A number of companies said that they wanted it left entirely to them to decide whether there should be a review. We included four circumstances in which we thought that there should be a review, and we left it at that. That is the right way to proceed.
As I have said, I do not claim that everything in the codes is right or immutable, and we may have to return to them in years to come.
Mr. Frank Haynes: I have listened carefully to what the Secretary of State has said. Many of us have not had the opportunity to get at the right hon. Gentleman in relation to this legislation. Thanks to the Chair, I am seizing the opportunity to do so now. Bearing in mind what was said by the Conservative Party in the pre-election period as to what it would do about trade unions and the closed shop, are the Government considering closed shops across the board, such as in a professional organisation? What will the Government do about that, or will they do nothing at all?
Mr. Prior: I advise the hon. Gentleman to read the reports of the debates
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that we have held over the last 18 months. Indeed, perhaps he will also read the Conservative manifesto, because there he will see that we suggested a code of practice on the closed shop at that time, and we are fulfilling that pledge today. That was part of our election manifesto. I believe that the codes have an important role to play in explaining the law where there is still misunderstanding and in setting standards of behaviour based on existing good practice.
Mr. Haynes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have not received a satisfactory answer from the Secretary of State—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): Order. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that on many occasions he has not been alone in that respect.
Mr. Prior: No aspect of industrial relations has caused deeper public concern than disorder and intimidation on the picket line or intolerance and inflexibility in the closed shop. Nothing has done more harm to the reputation of trade unionism in this country. I believe that these codes offer us the way forward to order and responsibility in our industrial relations. I urge the whole House to support the codes tonight. I am convinced that an overwhelming majority of trade unionists, including active trade unionists, wish to see some order and good behaviour introduced into the picket line and the operation of the closed shop.
No one knows that better than Labour Members. They know what the trade union membership and constituents are saying to them. If they vote against these codes tonight, and should they ever come into office and once more seek to repeal this legislation, they will have done the greatest disservice to the prosperity of our country and the people whom they hope to represent. It is on that basis that I commend the codes to the House.
5.22 pm
Mr. Eric G. Varley: We had a relatively quiet introduction from the Secretary of State until he got on to his Conservative Party conference speech. I hope to keep the temperature down and not provoke Conservative Members too much, because it is necessary to put some of these proposals under the scrutiny that they deserve.

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First, I wish to register a protest on behalf of the official Opposition about the way in which these codes have been dealt with. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) was absolutely right when he said that they are being dealt with in an unsatisfactory manner. The codes were produced three days before the House went into recess, and comments were asked for before the House returned. As the Select Committee on Employment reported,
"This shows scant regard for the views of Parliament and goes far to deny the Committee, and the House, a proper opportunity to make representations on the Codes at a stage when they could still influence their final form".
That is absolutely right. We now have the drafts in their final form. There is no chance of amending them and we must debate them on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
In moving acceptance of the drafts, the Secretary of State did his best to maintain the pretence that the purpose of the codes is to promote an improvement in industrial relations. Even after the relatively minor redrafting and softening of certain paragraphs, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding), who was Chairman of the Select Committee, said, they remain a jumble of interpretation, law and advice. There is every likelihood that they will be disregarded and discredited even before they pass through Parliament.
On 23 October, the British Institute of Management said that the drafts
"were seriously open to criticism on grounds of being over-political in parts and sometimes even provocative".
That is not the TUC speaking but an organisation which by and large supports the Conservative Government. Therefore, in spite of the minor modifications in the drafts, that criticism still holds good.
The Secretary of State has told the House that he has issued these codes of practice under section 3 of the Employment Act. Section 3(2) provides:
"The Secretary of State shall after consultation with the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service … prepare and publish a draft of any Code of Practice that he proposes to issue under this section".
The Secretary of State certainly gave the impression when he produced the first drafts that "such consultation has taken place". I have taken those words from
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the preamble to the draft codes of practice which were produced in August. That is not true. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) said in his intervention, ACAS is an independent body with a high reputation for fairness and impartiality. The ACAS council did not play any part in the consultative process. The members of that council did not want to take part in preparing the drafts, nor were they given any chance to comment before they were issued to the press.
Mr. Richard Needham: Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that the BIM document also stated:
"Most BIM respondents had taken the view that, with certain amendments and changes of emphasis, the draft Codes issued by the Department would be helpful in establishing good practice and in clarifying acceptable behaviour"?
Mr. Varley: Of course the BIM had other things to say, but I cannot quote the whole document that it produced on 23 October. However, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would deny that the words which I quoted are correct, and that it regards the drafts as
"over-political in parts and sometimes even provocative".
I was making the point that the Secretary of State tried to give the impression in August, when the drafts were produced, that such consultation had taken place. That is not the case, and we all know why ACAS did not want to take part in preparing these codes. It would have been much better had the Secretary of State admitted at the beginning of this process that there was never any chance of getting ACAS to give approval to what are the right hon. Gentleman's own codes. He must make that plain to the House. It must be made plain to the country that these are not impartial codes but rather Tory Government codes. That is how they will be regarded by the majority of people who must operate them. They will be characterised as biased and political.
It is not difficult to win support for the simple proposition that we should strive for stable and harmonious industrial relations. That is the objective of any sensible trade union leader and employer. But, as Mr. Jim Mortimer, chairman of ACAS, pointed out, there is a delicate distinction between the codes

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issued exclusively on the authority of the Secretary of State and sprinkled—as I think the Secretary of State confirmed in the last part of his speech—with the rhetoric of the Tory election campaign, the campaign documents and the Tory party manifesto, and those of ACAS. The codes of ACAS are not only part of a legal framework but they are positively recommended by that body as good industrial relations practice. These codes are not supported by ACAS, and they have no chance of being recommended by ACAS or of being accepted by the broad trade union movement.
The other folly about the codes is that they have what has been described as a semi-legal status—that is, in any proceedings before a court—any court, criminal or civil—these codes will be admissible in evidence and taken into account in determining the decision of the court. In Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster tried to move an amendment to leave out the word "court", but it was rejected. The Under-Secretary of State was wrong in rejecting it.
Lord Justice Scarman said on a previous occasion that judges should not be put in the driving seat in determining delicate problems arising out of trade disputes. That sound advice has been totally ignored by the Government. It is all very well for the Secretary of State to say that the codes will only be "taken into account" and that he is not making law. They will be used over and over again in the courts, they will be quoted by employers and they will be used with the adventurism that usually goes with the Master of the Rolls.
Mr. Budgen: How can judges, for instance, take the recommendations about the closed shop into account while not applying them if they are not law? What does the term "take into account" mean?
Mr. Varley: The hon. Gentleman should put that question to the Secretary of State. But, looking at the judgments that have been made over the last few years in the Court of Appeal and elsewhere, I think that there will be someone who will say that Parliament intended that the codes should be taken into account and that they will be used over and over again.
Mr. Reg Race: As a specific example of the difficulties that may arise, I refer to paragraph 11 of the draft code of practice on the closed shop. There is a substantial difference between the originally published code, which left out the word "union", and the present code. The word "union" has now been magically inserted. That means that the union, as well as an individual, could be brought before a court and that the immunities for trade unions under the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act could be overturned by a court, even though those immunities are written into the Act. Because of this code, trade unions could be liable to pay damages to an individual who had been unfairly dismissed for not wanting to be in a closed shop.
Mr. Varley: My hon. Friend has made the point forcefully in answer to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen).
It is not good enough for the Secretary of State to ignore the legal advice from people such as Lord Justice Scar-man. In the majority of cases there is no desire to get involved in the day-to-day industrial disputes that the Secretary of State tries to cover in these codes.
The codes are also affected by the tone and language used. By and large, the tone is anti-trade union, and that will be deeply offensive to the majority of loyal trade unionists. In some cases—for instance, among employers—they will be regarded as giving practical guidance, but in other cases they will lead to great confusion and dangerous misunderstandings. The codes impose burdens on only one side of industry.
I often wonder—I do not say this in any nasty way—what practical experience Tory Ministers have of industrial disputes. Certainly. Conservative Ministers have unparalleled experience of major official strikes. Under the Conservative Government in 1974 we had a postal workers' strike, a gas workers' strike, an electricity workers' strike and two coal miners' strikes. During the first 18 months of the present Conservative Government's term of office we have had an official engineers' strike and a national steel strike, the first steel strike in the history of the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation.

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I do not mean that kind of experience of industrial disputes; I mean practical experience at the level of the firm, for example, on the question of picketing, where there is a charged atmosphere when a strike takes place and men and women experience physical discomfort and financial hardship. They cannot be passive as other people take over their jobs or undertake work that they normally do, or when they see supplies going into the factory. That action renders their strike ineffective, and, as a consequence, hard words are used. Trade unions believe that they have every right to make their industrial action effective.
Of course picketing must be peaceful, and in the majority of cases it is peaceful, and chief constables have testified to that on many occasions. Labour Members have been the first to condemn violence when it occurs, but it must not be assumed that the trouble on the picket line is the sole responsibility of those engaged in the picket, as the code implies.
Mr. Bob Cryer rose—
Mr. Varley: I shall give way to my hon. Friend in a moment. Often ugly scenes occur, and pickets who want to do no more than exercise their right to communicate or obtain information have special buses and lorries driven at them at speed.
Another area of conflict is the Secretary of State's insistence in paragraph 31 of the code on picketing on laying down a maximum number of pickets at any entrance to a workplace. We warned against that foolishness in Committee, and the insistence on six pickets only is no more than the Secretary of State's opinion. That is not included in the Act, nor has it been requested by the chief constables of the West Midlands, South Yorkshire or South Wales, all of whom have experience in dealing with disputes in highly industrialised areas, or by Sir David McNee when he gave evidence to the Select Committee. The Times said on 7 November—
Mr. Donald Thompson: It is good at striking.
Mr. Varley: It is good at striking, but its leader writer was right in saying that this
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"is a politically charged recommendation … judging perhaps that a code based on inadequate common ground may do more harm than good."
It is the same when we consider the code on the closed shop arrangements. But, before I deal with that, I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer).
Mr. Cryer: My right hon. Friend was saying that Labour Members had been the first to condemn violence on the picket line, and that is absolutely correct. Will he also bear in mind that during the lorry drivers' strike, when a picket was killed in Glasgow by a cowboy lorry driver, the Conservatives were the very last to condemn that violence? Indeed, no official spokesman made any statement whatever condemning that act of violence until we insisted on it and forced the Conservatives to do so in the House of Commons.
Mr. Varley: Anyone with practical experience on a picket line at a workplace will know that there can be what I have tried to describe, probably inadequately, as a highly charged atmosphere. The workers there are suffering great privations. In the main, they want simply to communicate peacefully and to obtain information. But they see lorries and buses driving at them at great speed, and inevitably that causes tempers to rise. Hard things are said and hard words are used in those circumstances.
Mr. Jocelyn Cadbury: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the sheer weight of numbers outside a factory is itself intimidatory?
Mr. Varley: If the hon. Gentleman has been following the evidence that has been given to the Select Committee, he will know that the chief constables, without exception, said that they could usually deal with that kind of demonstration. They have dealt with it and they do not want the numbers to be specified in the legislation. I make plain that it is not specified in the legislation. It is also the Secretary of State's own view, as far as I understand, that the chief constables do not want it specified there.
Mr. John Townend rose—
Mr. Varley: I have given way a great deal. I give way to the hon. Gentleman because he is a member of the Select Committee.
Mr. Townend: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. The police in their evidence said that they wanted to have the right to decide the number of pickets but on two occasions said that they considered that large numbers of pickets were of themselves intimidatory. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that?
Mr. Varley: I have read every scrap of evidence that has been given by the chief constables to the Select Committee over the last 12 months. It is true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that the chief constables do not like that kind of demonstration. Nobody does. I do not think that the trade unions are particularly keen on mounting that kind of demonstration. On no occasion have the chief constables said that they want the numbers limited by law or included in a code.
Mr. John Evans rose—
Mr. Varley: I give way for the last time.
Mr. Evans: Will my right hon. Friend point out to Conservative Members that the Secretary of State has already indicated that at present the police have all the powers in the world to limit the number of pickets to one, if necessary?
Mr. Varley: That is right. There may be circumstances in which one picket is sufficient or in which two are sufficient. But when the Secretary of State gives the impression that six will be enough pickets for any entrance, it means that immediately people will say "That is the very minimum and we shall break it anyway because it is not in the law." We shall probably find that picketing will get even worse in certain circumstances.
I was moving on to consider the code in the booklet entitled "Closed Shop Agreements and Arrangements". I cannot understand why the Government have adopted such an anti-closed shop attitude. As long ago as 1968, the closed shop was considered by the Donovan Commission and it came down firmly against its prohibition. Yet the Secretary of State, in the preamble to the draft code published
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in August—it is not repeated in the code before the House today—went out of his way to say the most damaging and misleading things about union membership agreements. If only he had taken time to look at his own Department of Employment Gazette, he would have seen that comprehensive safeguards have been written into closed shop agreements over the past 10 years.
These are not the right hon Gentleman's words, but the Gazette gives the following summary of the position:
"The present research indicates that a major change in the nature of the closed shop has occurred during the past decade. Negotiators have concluded increasingly sophisticated post-entry UMAs"—
union membership agreements—
"to define precisely the obligations and rights of workers where union membership exists as a condition of employment, and, despite enormous variation in detail, there appears to be a growing standardisation in broad content matter which is only partly attributable to legal considerations. For example, where new closed shops have appeared, it has increasingly become the norm to exclude existing non-unionists from compulsion to join the union."
That is what the research showed only about 12 months ago.
Perhaps I could give some examples of the muddling up of the law in the code with the Secretary of State's prejudice. Paragraph 33 of the code says that
"a secret ballot should be held of those to be included within the scope of any proposed new closed shop."
A trade union or an employer can still conclude a closed shop agreement without any ballot, so that paragraph 33 is quite misleading, for a ballot in which 80 per cent. of the work force agrees to establish a closed shop gives protection against claims of unfair dismissal.
Mr. David Mellor: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Varley: Not to the hon. Gentleman. I saw him walk into the Chamber at 20 minutes past five.
Mr. Mellor: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was here at the beginning and went out for only five minutes. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman feels it necessary to descend to ridiculous personal abuse.
Mr. Varley: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman if I am incorrect. But I shall not give way to him now because I have

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already said that I would not give way further to Government Members on this matter.
As I was saying, the code does not prevent a closed shop agreement from coming into operation if the principal partners agree. There is no requirement in the legislation for a ballot before a closed shop agreement is concluded.
Another example of the Government's hostility to effective trade union organisation is to be found in paragraph 35 of the code, which states:
"While 80 per cent. is the minimum of support necessary under the Employment Act to provide a defence against claims of unfair dismissal in a new closed shop, this does not prevent an employer from deciding that there should be a higher percentage in favour before he agrees to such a radical change in his employees' terms".
It is not sufficient for the Secretary of State that the Act lays down that not less than 80 per cent. of those entitled to vote should vote in favour of a union membership agreement. That is hard enough to achieve by any test, but the code goes on to encourage an employer to go for a higher percentage before he even agrees to a ballot. The Secretary of State is not content with that. In paragraphs 42 and 43 of the code, he encourages the breaking of existing union membership agreements by periodic reviews. If the Secretary of State's advice is followed, it will increase the industrial conflict and do great damage to industrial relations.
The suggestion of periodic reviews has been watered down a little, not because of a change of heart by the Secretary of State but because of the alarm it caused among members of the Engineering Employers Federation and the Confederation of British Industry. But that minor change in no way detracts from the dangerous counsel that the Secretary of State is giving to employers to seek ways of breaking union membership agreements.
The Secretary of State is fond of saying that his codes offer practical advice. In the case of a union membership agreement, it is no more than guidance to employers to find ways of obstruction, to prevaricate and to seek ways to undermine the effectiveness of union membership agreements. Throughout the code the Secretary of State has not a word of
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support for the trade unions which are trying to seek legitimate union membership agreements.
Within a very short time the first Session of this Parliament, elected in May of last year, will come to an end, and the House is entitled to ask what contribution this legislation, these codes and the Secretary of State have made over the last 18 months to improving industrial relations.
In this Session we have seen the most catastrophic economic slump for over half a century. The Government came to power with campaign posters depicting phoney dole queues. They have produced genuine dole queues that are longer than most of us can remember. The Government came to power denouncing pay restraint and championing free collective bargaining. They are now operating the crudest, most discriminatory and most unfair pay restraint policy in the public service that we have ever known. I cannot see that improving industrial relations.
The Government came to power denouncing high rates of interest, yet the highest interest rates that we have ever known for longer than we have ever known have been inflicted on workers and employers alike. That policy will not contribute to sound industrial relations. We have artificially high fuel costs and an exchange rate which is pricing even the most competitive companies out of world markets.
It is not the TUC alone that is opposed to these policies. The Confederation of British Industry is in rebellion, too. The building employers proclaim that the Government are bringing their industry almost to its knees.
What is the Secretary of State doing? All that he is doing is producing these irrelevant and provocative codes, which will do nothing to help and will alienate still further the trade unions, the co-operation of which I should think the Government desperately need now more than ever before. The Secretary of State is quite a pleasant man—
Mr. Cryer: That is very generous.
Mr. Varley: As I have said before, he is the good guy of this Government. He is quite a pleasant man. However, whenever things have become difficult, he has

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always been prepared to take aside a friendly journalist or two and give the impression that he does not really agree with any of it. That might have been credible a few months ago, but the right hon. Gentleman is as deeply implicated in the Government's destructive economic and industrial policies as are his Cabinet colleagues. He shares collective responsibility for the demented industrial policies that are shutting down companies day by day. He shares collective responsibility for the crackpot monetary policy which has done so much to damage industry and which will do so much to damage industrial relations.
The right hon. Gentleman's guilt is greater than that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Secretary of State for Industry. At least, they profess to believe in the Government's policies, whereas the right hon. Gentleman's covert and sly briefings are aimed at convincing us that he does not believe in the policies. His position in the Cabinet should make him the custodian of employment policies and of fostering good industrial relations. However, we have seen employment opportunities destroyed. We are certain that the codes will worsen good industrial relations. That is why we shall vote against them tonight.
5.53 pm
Mr. John Gorst: I should at the outset make it clear that I can give no support to these codes of practice. I spent many hours and several days as a member of the Select Committee that listened to evidence on these matters. It heard evidence from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the CBI. I have never heard from those knuckle-dusting gentlemen such turgid and timid evidence, mouthing as they did the slogans of the wet wing of politics. I recall phrases such as "foot-by-foot" reform, or was it "step-by-step"? It does not really matter. The fact is that the CBI's support for the codes was given in the most mindless fashion. It may be that I am put in league with the devil in taking this attitude, but when dealing with devilish and misplaced conceptions one has to find support and friends from wherever they may reside.
I do not wish to spend any time considering the detail of the codes. Suffice it to say that I regard the leaving of the
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number of pickets on a line to the discretion of the police the right and correct approach. We should not conjure a figure such as six out of the air. There is no point in tinkering with the details, because I believe that the codes are wrong in principle. If I were to address myself to the changes that have been made to the draft codes by the Secretary of State, I should be thankful for the separation of guidance on good practice from explanations of the law. If Parliament is not to be given the same opportunity to discuss the codes as it was accorded to discuss the non-controversial subject of highway codes, which was the subject of a Green Paper, a full day's debate is certainly a welcome opportunity. Finally, I am grateful for the small modifications that have been made.
I am opposed to the codes in principle because of their objective. If the House would like to know what I would do, I would say that in place of them there are three choices. The first choice is that what is contained in them should be the subject matter of law and that they should be enshrined in law. The second choice is that they should be brought forward by trade unions, because a trade union is in a position to police its codes' observance if anyone is in a position to do so. The third choice is that they should be introduced by ACAS. I found the Secretary of State's rejection of ACAS as a necessary supporter of the codes completely unconvincing. Incidentally, I am glad to know that the Secretary of State is not making much of the comparison between these codes and highway codes, as he has done on earlier occasions when giving evidence to the Select Committee.
I turn to the procedure that has been adopted. The Secretary of State has given his replies to the Select Committee. It criticised the time that it was allowed. In his reply, the Secretary of State said that the CBI might have had the necessary time and that it had not complained. He claimed that the TUC had had the necessary time. I draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the fact that the Select Committee had only 14 working days after having heard the evidence of the CBI and the TUC to decide what its further inquiries should be, to obtain witnesses to give that evidence and to make

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a report. I make no complaint that members of a Select Committee should be asked to work hard, but I complain that Members of this place should be given so little time in which to deliberate before making a report to the House.
The Secretary of State asserts that the matter has been properly debated in Parliament. That is his contention in paragraph 13 of his observations on the Select Committee's second report. In that paragraph, he states:
"The debates on the Employment Act included detailed consideration of the principle of secret ballots in relation to industrial action".
That does not answer the point about shortage of time and the lack of debate on the codes. I do not understand what secret ballots have to do with the codes. I suggest to the Secretary of State that there has not been adequate time for the House to express its point of view on a Green Paper and for those views to be considered. Let us not forget that it is not only criticism of what is in the codes but criticism of what is not in them that is a matter for the House to express a view upon.
I take issue with the Secretary of State because matters relating to the codes have not been considered by Parliament. I did not vote with the Opposition against clause 3 of the Employment Bill of 1980, which included powers to bring forward such codes. We were presented with the equivalent of a blank cheque. Three days before Parliament rose for the Summer Recess, the sums of money on that blank cheque were filled in. I do not like those sums of money, and that is why I shall not support them.
In the Secretary of State's reply to the Select Committee, there is more than one suggestion that the Select Committee was not agreed on various aspects of its report. Far from that diminishing the value of the report, it enhances the criticism that controversial matters had not been sufficiently and properly aired. I refer to the procedures followed on the various amendments that were made to the highway codes. Green Papers preceded debates and final drafts. My overriding criticism is—no matter what the Secretary of State may say—that the codes of practice are unconstitutional. It is said that the three codes produced by ACAS
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do not have the same status as the codes produced by the Secretary of State. That is not true. The codes produced by ACAS were the result of agreement between the trade unions and the employers. Even if there was some controversy over them, they were not rejected by either side of industry. That makes a significant difference.
The Secretary of State suggests that his codes are not unconstitutional and that they are not back-door legislation. They are worse. They constitute the first step down a slippery slope. If we have semi-judicial edicts that are quasi-binding on the courts and that have been produced by Ministers who have not had the courage to enshrine them in law, worse developments may ensue. The codes will bring the spirit of the law into industrial relations, but not the certainty and precision of the letter of the law. That is why I shall not give them my support in the Lobby.
6.2 pm
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: By somewhat the same route, I have arrived at the same conclusion as that put forward by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) and by the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst). My hon. Friends and I in the Ulster Unionist Party will vote against these motions.
I express our gratitude to the Select Committee for having afforded a minority party a timely opportunity to put forward its views. I also express our gratitude for the manner in which those views were received. We were gratified to find that the matters that we had found objectionable, or open to criticism, in the draft codes of practice had attracted the attention and objection of either a part or the majority of the Select Committee.
The Select Committee's report certainly did not lack attention from the Government. It would be less than candid not to accept that the codes now represent a substantial redraft of the original drafts. If one were to go over the history of codes and similar documents that were submitted in a draft form and then put forward for the approval of the House, I believe one would find only a small minority in which the changes and redrafting had been so substantial and genuine. In particular, the Secretary of

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State firmly took on board one of the criticisms that my colleagues put forward, and which the Committee strongly underlined, namely, that the original draft failed to distinguish between the part of the code that was interpretation or commentary on the law and the part that was a self-confessed addition to the law—a sort of voluntary supplement. The new draft of the codes clearly distinguishes between those parts that state the law and those that do not; and that throws into relief the serious criticism of them.
Despite the protestations of the Secretary of State, we are endeavouring to legislate by code on subjects that should not be dealt with otherwise than by the full process of parliamentary legislation. In the preamble to the code of practice on the closed shop, the following words appear:
"Changes in existing practices and written agreements required to meet the standards set by the Code"—
it does not refer to standards set by the Act—
"should be adopted in the light of the Code's general approach—and that of the 1980 Employment Act, which it complements".
That is a fair—perhaps inadvertently fair—description of what the codes seek to do. They seek to set a standard that the Act did not set, and thereby to create a complement to an Act of Parliament. In doing so, they include matter which will render them harmful, rather than helpful, to industrial relations—the very test that was put forward by the Secretary of State himself.
I intend to take four of the most important examples. One has already been referred to, namely, "the rule of six" in the code on picketing. This is a very grave matter. The code specifies a generally applicable figure in excess of which legal consequences of a criminal character as well as of a civil character will probably follow.
Now, it is not beyond the power of parliamentary draftsmen—if it is the will of this House and of Parliament—to find words to express the idea that a picket of six should be regarded, other than in exceptional circumstances, as the maximum, and the House is capable of thrashing through the formulae proposed until they express the view of the House as a
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whole or, as is more usual, the view of the majority, which we accept as the view of the House. But the Act has left the matter open. It is the code which introduces the specificity.
It is no use arguing that the code is expressly an exercise in flexibility. The wording of the code would have to be taken into account in a criminal case; for both the criminal and the civil courts are directed by the Act to have regard to the code's wording. They would have to consider that wording whenever it appeared to be relevant to the circumstances of the case. So I do not believe there could be a clearer case of legislation by code than "the rule of six".
I turn for my remaining examples to the code on the closed shop. I take first the matter of the periodic reviews, which arises first in paragraph 30(vii) and is then elaborated in paragraphs 42 to 46. If there is to be a periodic review—leaving aside for the moment what the periodicity should be—of existing and new closed shops, the complexion of the legislation on closed shops in the Act is placed in an entitrely different light. The whole institution of the closed shop, if it is to be subject to periodic review in every case where it exists, is different as a result of those provisions from what it would be under the provisions of the Act that received Royal Assent.
It is no use the Secretary of State saying that people can take account or not take account of the code but that this is the broad direction in which he would like them to go. He is entitled to stump the country if he wishes, saying that that is the sort of practice he would like to see. He can further say that that is the sort of legislation which in due course he would wish to see introduced. What, in my view, he is not entitled to do is to introduce into a code a provision which is not minor in character but which goes to the heart of the legislation on the closed shop and then say to the courts that they are to have regard to it whenever it is relevant to anything that comes before them.
There is a reference to the pre-entry closed shop in paragraph 46. The Secretary of State does not like the pre-entry closed shop at all. I am not here agreeing or disagreeing with his tastes in that

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matter; but let the House consider the wording of that paragraph:
"Closed shop agreements which require people to belong to a trade union before they can be employed … may particularly infringe the freedom of individuals to work."
Those last words are a redrafting. The original phrase was "the right to work"; and one can reconstruct something of what went through the draftsman's mind when he took up his pen and made the alteration.
However, the fact is that whatever the rights of individuals in this country are, they are enshrined either in the common law or in the law made by Parliament. It is not possible for a mere code to declare that this or that is liked or disliked because it might
"infringe the freedom of individuals".
If we are concerned with
"the freedom of individuals",
we should use the powers that we possess in this House to safeguard those freedoms by due course of law. We certainly should not continue, as that paragraph does:
"No new ageements of this type should be contemplated".
I wonder what that means. Is it a sin now just to contemplate? The reason for that strange verb being chosen is that the Secretary of State understands perfectly well what he is trying to do: he is trying to secure the effect of a prohibition but, knowing that he cannot do that openly in the code, he uses terminology which is—shall I say?—not legislative. If for
"the freedom of the individual"
there ought not to be pre-entry closed shops, it is the business of this House, as one of the Houses of Parliament, to say so. There is no other way in which
"the freedom of the individual",
if it needs to be safeguarded in this context, ought to be protected.
My last instance is one that has an even wider bearing. It is the reference to the disciplinary action which unions ought or ought not to take. It first appears in paragraph 30:
"Any new closed shop agreements should … provide that an employee will not be dismissed if expelled from his union for refusal to take part in industrial action".
There were exchanges earlier between the Secretary of State and the hon. Member
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for Newton (Mr. Evans) about the later paragraph, paragraph 54, on disciplinary action, which apparently limits the generality of paragraph 35. If I may say so, the hon. Gentleman was right to draw attention to the significance of paragraph 54:
"refusal to take part in industrial action called for by the union … (c) because the action had not been affirmed in a secret ballot".
What the code is saying here is that a trade union ought not to discipline a member of that union if he refuses to take part in industrial action because the action had not been affirmed in a secret ballot, even if a secret ballot is not part of the rules of that union. Consideration of that clearly legislative proposition in the code leads us to look at the much larger background to the Act and the code itself; for if a trade union cannot take action against one of its own members for failing to participate in industrial action that is both in accordance with the law and with its own rules, it is difficult to see what the function of a trade union is.
I have long said that we shall never succeed in this House in getting satisfactory legislation on the law governing trade unions unless and until we have decided what is to be the function of the trade union in the economy and in society. Let me put it simply. If it is a function of the trade union in our society to safeguard the real remuneration, including conditions of work, of the workers, we shall draw one set of conclusions as to the closed shop and the law that ought to govern it—conclusions reached by the sort of reasoning that is expresed in the term "free rider". We shall say that trade unions by their collective and coercive action are conferring a general benefit and that, therefore, it is unjust and unfair that those who benefit should not bear the burden and cost of that which benefits them. That is one view of the scope and function of the trade union in society.
There is another view—that the trade union is an inevitable but inherently free association of workers, by which they believe that, so far as they join in and participate in it, they improve their circumstances and prospects. If that is the view taken of the place of the trade union in our life, different conclusions will follow on the closed shop. We shall then indeed say that to coerce a man to pay

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for or support that which he is convinced does not benefit him is unreasonable and should not have the support of the law.
This is a matter that has not been clarified. Indeed it has rarely been brought into serious public debate, inside or outside the House. Instead of clarifying it, we have sought to pretend that there is not that deep divergence underlying our legislation and have simply gone ahead with legislating. The result is that the Secretary of State finds himself—
Mr. Thompson: Which institution, if any, in this great, complex country is as clearly defined as the right hon. Gentleman would like trade unions to be?
Mr. Powell: There can be few institutions of which the purpose and effect is the subject of so little agreement as trade unions. Until we know what we want trade unions to do and believe they can do, we cannot deal with the most controversial and controverted aspects of the law and the activities of trade unions.
Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark: Clever nonsense.
Mr. Powell: Clever nonsense can sometimes be useful.
Mr. Beaumont-Dark: We do not want to hear it. We want common sense.
Mr. Powell: If the hon. Gentleman does not want to listen, he need not waste his time being in the Chamber.
The Secretary of State has found himself in a cleft stick. Many of his supporters believe that, on their view of trade unions and their function, there should be further limitation by law of unions' activities and further restrictions on the right of combination. The right hon. Gentleman considers it to be impractical to legislate in that way or to provide the protection that many of his hon. Friends think is just and necessary for the individual citizen.
So the right hon. Gentleman says instead "Don't worry. I will have a code, and you will find in the code many of the things that you would like. If you read it in conjunction with the Act, you will find that by the back door you are getting what you thought you would get." That cannot succeed. The attempt to cover over an unresolved conflict of the deepest character
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by a combination of enabling legislation with codes of practice is bound to fail and, in the course of failing, to do harm to industrial relations and not improve them.
The very insincerity that lies at the heart of it will itself be a cause of conflict and damage. For that reason, I believe that the House should say to the Secretary of State that perhaps one day there will be a time when it will be reasonable for the right hon. Gentleman to use the code-making powers in the Act but that, if he wishes his codes to go beyond explanation and commentary on the law, the time is not yet. Parliament has passed the Act; let us see how it works and how we get on.
6.21 pm
Mr. Harry Greenway: Oscar Wilde said that the easiest way to overcome temptation was to yield to it. I yield to the temptation to speak from example and personal experience, in the same way as did the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell).
Throughout 23 years in the teaching profession, I always belonged to a professional association—a union. I believe totally in the value of the association of those with common interests into unions or their equivalent. In addition to the pursuit of a common interest, much is gained academically, in the case of teaching unions, or in other ways by the close co-operation of those doing similar work. There was always great individuality in the way that teachers approached union activities in my time—which was until last year—and we belonged to many different unions, or to none, for different reasons, ranging from a need to be covered legally if taken to court by a parent, perhaps for having struck a child in self-defence, or for a number of other reasons.
Our unions had to act democratically, or there was trouble. Minority or individual objections or special needs had always to be taken into account and a closed shop would have been unthinkable and unworkable in my profession. I am not saying that a closed shop is wrong for those who freely choose it and when there are reasonable arrangements for minorities, but a recent experience has made me feel cautious. I raised in the

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House in June the case of a constituent, Graham Hunter-Gray, aged 21, who went to work on 14 May when he was not a member of a union. His employer, Lyons Maid Limited of Greenford, had said that there would be work for all those wishing to work at the factory on that day, and Len Murray had said that the decision to work or not to work, on that so-called day of action rested with each individual.
I explained to the House on that occasion that Graham needed and wanted to join the Transport and General Workers Union, which was in control of a closed shop agreement in the cold store at Lyons Maid, where he worked. Graham told me, and I accept his word, that he believed in unions. The story is not over yet, but much of it is already history. However, I must refer to a few details.
Graham was suspended from work on 15 May. On 31 May he appeared before a branch meeting of what he described as 26 hostile officials. On 3 June the branch secretary wrote to him saying that he had been refused branch membership but had the right of appeal to the regional secretary of the TGWU within 15 days.
An appeal was made on 9 June and acknowledged on 12 June. However, on 13 June the branch secretary, Mr. McCann, wrote to the Lyons Maid personnel officer drawing his attention to the agreement made with the union not to employ non-union labour and pointing out that Graham had been refused union membership on 31 May. Graham therefore lost his job and needlessly joined the young unemployed. Since then, there has been a saga of delay and a failure to answer letters.
Seven weeks went by and there was still no response to Graham's appeal, even though it meant that he had no job. I raised the matter in the House and wrote to Moss Evans, the general secretary of the TGWU, who had expressed such tremendous concern about unemployment, especially youth unemployment. Finally, on 23 July, Graham heard from the union's regional secretary that its regional emergency and general purposes committee had supported the branch's refusal of union membership but that he had the right of appeal to the union's independent review committee. Graham therefore lodged such an appeal in due course.
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Since then, nothing has been heard by Graham, myself or anyone else. As far as the union, the branch and all connected with it are concerned, he is out of work pending his appeal. What a long time it has taken. Every step seems to have taken an inordinate length of time, except the first, which was to refuse him union membership and, therefore, to exclude him from his job.
Graham is presumed by the TGWU to be unemployed. Moss Evans does not answer my letters, written as Graham's Member of Parliament. It would be a grave situation if a Minister refused to answer a letter from an hon. Member in such circumstances. There would, rightly, be a row. I have asked Moss Evans for compassion and expedition in this case, but, nearly six months after the incident, nothing is resolved.
Happily, Graham has recently got another job and the matter is becoming academic, but it is a serious and tragic example of the way in which any person could be handled under the legislation passed by the previous Government. I know that the recent Act would now cover cases such as Graham's and he would have proper legal redress.
I have felt up against a wall, morally, spiritually and in every other way. The codes of practice seem to me to point the union and everyone concerned in a moral direction. I clutch at the codes and welcome them on that basis. I note that my right hon. Friend has said that they may well be the forerunners of future action.
I should like to say this to my friends in the Labour Party. How can a party argue, as it does, and as it has done historically, for total freedom of the individual from censorship and freedom to read and look at what he wishes and at the same time be willing, through legislation, to place a total restriction on a man and his job? Those seem to me to be incompatible actions. The job of any man claims a great deal of his life.
That is a philosophical and political contradiction of the gravest kind. The livelihood and well-being of each individual can be affected. Power over his own life is removed from him to an amorphous corporate body—in this case the union-controlled closed shop. There is no doubt that the code of practice on this is more than fully justified. If it results in pressure in society, the courts, the

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unions and everywhere else for support to be given to individuals such as my young constituent, it will be very welcome. I welcome it in that spirit.
6.32 pm
Mr. Ted Fletcher: In Committee during the passage of the Employment Act, many of my hon. Friends raised various points which the Minister at the time said would be clarified when the codes of practice were issued. But—as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), with whom I totally disagree on most issues, said in a brilliant speech—the codes do not clarify the position but make it almost murkier than it was. They not merely set out advice to the unions but suggest that in certain circumstances the codes will have the force of law.
For example, paragraph 5 of section A of the code on picketing says:
"The Code itself imposes no legal obligations and failure to observe it does not by itself render anyone liable to proceedings."
That is definite, and one could not quarrel with it. However, it continues:
"But Section 3 (8) of the Employment Act 1980 provides that any provisions of the Code are to be admissible in evidence and taken into account in proceedings before any court or industrial tribunal or the Central Arbitration Committee where they consider them relevant."
A man might be arrested on a picket line, perhaps for a trivial misdemeanour. He might not have gone on to the pavement when the police instructed him to do so, and as a result he might be taken to court. The magistrates might disagree about whether he had committed an offence, and the case might be in the balance. The prosecuting solicitor would then say "In addition, this man has violated the code of conduct, because he was one of seven picketing his place of employment rather than six, the notional maximum which should be there." The fact that that is reported to the court would weigh the balance of justice against the man in the dock.
One can foresee the codes of practice being used on many occasions to turn the law against trade unionists who appear in the dock. This is one more instance of how the trade union movement is being embroiled in the law. There will be a bonanza for people in one of the closed shops in the legal profession, members of the Law Society.
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The principles set out in the code seem to suggest that we gave serious consideration to these matters only when the 1974 Act was amended. In fact, picketing is as old as the trade union movement. It was first recognised by Parliament in the Conspiracy, and Protection of Property Act 1875, which sets out various proposals for containing violence. Some of them deal with such matters as the use use of violence to intimidate a person, his wife or children, and with injury to his property. The Act stops a man from being persistently followed. It deals with a man who hides another man's tools or other property, or hinders their use, or who watches or besets any house or place where he is, or the approach to it, or follows him in the street, and so on. Those are crimes under the Act. But the Act sought to make a distinction with regard to picketing. In 1875 peaceful picketing was legalised, so that there should be a distinction between the criminal law and picketing. There was a proviso that attending at or near a place of work merely in order to communicate information was legal.
Picketing has been going on over the years throughout the trade union movement. In many instances it led to violence on the picket line, and pickets were arrested—in accordance with the criminal law, not becaue they were peacefully picketing at a place of employment.
If they wish to look into the history of picketing, hon. Members may be interested in the following. It may sound up to date, but it was written in 1890 by a trade union leader, who said, in a book called "Conflicts of Capital and Labour":
"Hundreds of strikes, with the usual practice of picketing, occur, to which public attention is never drawn; they are not of sufficient importance to attract a crowd of reporters anxious to chronicle every fact which tells against the workmen. Such strikes sometimes result in favour of the men, at other times in favour of the masters; picketing is resorted to in most cases, but the public hear nothing about the alleged evils of the system. Why? Because they seldom take place. But let one single instance of coercion or undue influence be resorted to, and the entire newspaper press will record the fact, not infrequently colouring it so as to distort its real nature and significance."
That is precisely what is happening today. The press is producing similar reports, saying that the isolated instances where violence takes place on picket lines seem

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to suggest that a code of practice is necessary, when thousands of strikes take place each year and if the pickets resort to violence they can be brought to the courts under the criminal law.
Mr. Nicholas Lyell: I have had the privilege of hearing the hon. Gentleman 'recount this matter in Standing Committee. If everything is so satisfactory and has been so in recent years, why did the TUC find it necessary to issue its guidelines, in rather a hurry, in the spring of 1979?
Mr. Fletcher: That was because the TUC was under some pressure with the threat of legislation if a Tory Government were returned. The TUC was under pressure, particularly from the media, to produce what is regarded as a code of conduct applicable to trade unions. If it is thought that there was merit in the TUC doing that, why did Conservative Members not pressurise their own Ministers to introduce codes of conduct based upon the TUC proposals? It seems to me that although the TUC has produced these proposals, they seem quite unsatisfactory to the Government.
It seems that the Government will be facing a revolt in their own ranks tonight, because some hon. Members think that the codes of conduct do not go far enough, that ACAS should be abolished and that the Government should confront the trade union movement to thrash this matter out and put the trade unions in their place. Such people may vote against the Government. But the trade union movement is not prepared to accept the proposals before us. The proposals are not open to amendment. Therefore, we have to accept them or reject them. We on the Labour Benches will reject them.
I warn Conservative Members of what will happen if they bring the law into disrepute. There is some history on these matters. They will remember their own Industrial Relations Act. It was defied by the trade union movement, and the Conservative Government had to go through some complicated measures to rescue five dockers, who were clearly guilty under the legislation, and get them out of prison. Conservatives promised that when they were returned to power they would not introduce any legislation similar to the Industrial Relations Act.
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If the law is not to be brought into disrepute, it is essential that the Government seek the active co-operation of the trade union movement when going through the minefield of amending our industrial relations law. They have not done that. They have ignored not only the TUC but ACAS as well. Although the Government have a statutory obligation to consult ACAS, they have not done so. In any case, ACAS would refuse to touch these proposals with a barge-pole.
There will be the greatest difficulty in maintaining the law if thousands of people decide that the situation is so intolerable that they are prepared to fight against the law as it exists. History has taught us that, to be carried out, the law must be acceptable, if not to a majority, to a substantial proportion of the population. If it is not, the law is brought into disrepute.
I warn the Government that these proposals are not acceptable to the trade union movement. We shall fight them every inch of the way. If the Government persist tonight and get these proposals through the House, they will be heading for a confrontation with the trade union movement which will be solved only when a Labour Government are returned to power.
6.43 pm
Mr. Jonathan Aitken: The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher) opened his speech by praising what he called the brilliant speech of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell). That gracious compliment only underlined the fact that the right hon. Member has become a sort of guru whose metaphysical theories about the unconstitutional nature of these particular codes has been the inspiration behind an unholy alliance of Left and Right, which surfaced to a large extent in the Select Committee's deliberations and, indeed, on the Floor of the House this evening.
I believe that those theories are wrong, and I shall say why later. First, however, I should like to place on record the minority view of the Select Committee. There was, rightly, a majority view, but, nevertheless, there was a strongly expressed minority view, which has perhaps not yet achieved the attention that it merited. I should like to

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think so, being part of that minority. In any case, that minority strongly supported the line taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in these codes. It believed that the codes would contribute towards good industrial relations, that they were in no way unconstituional and that they would be useful and a helpful guidance to good industrial relations practices in the future.
Throughout the debates on the employment legislation, the Secretary of State has resembled at times—to me, at least, that warrior who appears in Macaulay's "Lays of Ancient Rome", about whom those behind are always crying "Forward" and those in front are always crying "Back". But the middle course that my right hon. Friend has been pursuing and the comments that have surrounded it have now, rather suprisingly, changed, as we reach the debates on these codes, because both Left and Right have managed to unite against the codes, and for the same peculiar reason. They have united beneath the banner of constitutional purity held aloft by the right hon. Member for Down, South.
The view that the codes are contitutionally undesirable or are some species of unworkable and unconstitutional legislation is extremely doubtful and one that should be challenged. Perhaps the best and clearest way of challenging it is to refer to that part of the codes that deals with the closed shop and freedom of the press.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) was somewhat dismissive of industrial experience possessed by Conservative Members. I claim only a modest degree of industrial experience, but it was gained in the newspaper industry. That experience, combined with parliamentary experience of the debates that took place on the whole question of the closed shop in journalism in 1974, 1975 and 1976, reinforces me in the view that the provisions in this code are far and away the best and clearest guidance to good industrial relations in the newspaper industry that I have yet seen.
This becomes particularly clear when one remembers the heroic and yet disastrous and vain efforts that this House and the upper House made to try to legislate
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some of these very recommendations and provisions on to the statute book. We had debate after debate, amendment after amendment, messages to the Lords, messages back from the Lords, and at the end of the day, with the present Leader of the Opposition playing the largest part of all, what did we agree? We agreed that we could agree on nothing—except, perhaps, that a press charter should be written at some subsequent date and annexed to the legislation. That was Parliament's conclusion at the end of the day, after all those battles to write statutory provisions about good industrial relations in journalism on to the statute book.
When the right hon. Member for Down, South appeared before the Select Committee, we tried to question him on his views on this particular issue. He stuck to his familiar line that any of the rights or responsibilities set out in the code should be written into statute law as firm legislation.
I ask the House to consider for a moment a hypothetical but by no means fanciful example of a situation in a busy newspaper office shortly before edition time. Copy boys are running here and there; printers are getting hot metal copy ready; men with green eyeshades are saying "Hold the front page, a big story is coming", and suddenly at that moment there plops on to the news editor's desk a press release. Perhaps it is a press release from none other than the right hon. Member for Down, South. Perhaps it is one of his more apocalyptic warnings about the future of the racial situation in Britain—with the Thames foaming with much blood. Perhaps it is that sort of controversial speech which he has made in the past.
At that moment, the editor and his colleagues meet quickly and say "This is news; we must put it on the front page", and they send it off to the printers. Up from the print room comes a deputation of printers, saying "We are not having this. We shall not put this on the front page or anywhere else in the newspaper. We are blacking this copy. It is racialist stuff"—that kind of argument, of a sort not totally unfamiliar to the right hon. Gentleman.
What would be the situation under these codes? Let us see what good sense is written into them. Section E of

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the "Closed Shop Agreements and Arrangements" states:
"Editors have final responsibility for the content of their publications. An editor should not be subjected to improper pressure … The editor should be free to decide whether or not to publish any material submitted to him from any source."
These codes contain good guidance and good sense.
When the Select Committee questioned the right hon. Member for Down, South on whether some of the provisions in the codes should best be left as codes instead of written into statute law, at one point in his evidence he said:
"I want a statutory definition of an 'editor'".
In another passage he said:
"I object to an exemption for a class from a statute, or a privileged position for a class under a statute, being given by a code of practice and not by statute as it should be. This is an old constitutional issue."
The right hon. Gentleman's evidence and his speech tonight reminded me of a remark about him attributed to the late Mr. Iain Macleod:
"I am often a fellow traveller with Enoch, but I like to get off the train one or two stops before it crashes into the buffer at the terminus."
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Will the hon. Gentleman be completing the little scenario, of which he appears to have described four scenes? Will he explain what happens at the end of it by virtue of paragraph 61? Will it be printed?
Mr. Aitken: I should hope that it would be printed. I believe that good trade unionists would respect a code of practice. The reason why I think that they would respect a code of practice is that there is no other alternative. We tried to write those kinds of duties and responsibilities on to the statute book. The right hon. Gentleman, who took part in those debates, will remember what fiascos they were and how much time we spent sending messages to and getting messages from the House of Lords. Both Houses of Parliament were unable to agree on anything. So the issue is not whether it would be better for this to be written into a statute or a code. As regards journalism, we have already tried and failed miserably to write it on to the statute book, because there was no agreement. At least, a code lays down good
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signposts and guidelines, and I believe that they are workable.
I have used this one illustration of the closed shop in journalism, but I believe it to be just as valid for many other areas covered by these codes, whether it be the number of pickets or the way in which the closed shop should be restricted by various safeguards. I think that these proposals are sensible and workable. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done a very good job, and I commend his codes to the House.
6.54 pm
Mr. Robert C. Brown: The hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) blew the gaff when he referred to the situation that existed between the two Houses of Parliament when no agreement could be reached. Because no agreement could be reached in this democratically elected House or in the other place, the Government are now trying the backstairs method of codes of practice to introduce measures that they could not get through the other House.
Mr. Aitken: The hon. Gentleman has misinterpreted something that I said. First, I was referring to the previous Parliament, when the Labour Government were in power. Secondly, not only was no agreement reached between both Houses, but no agreement was reached within the Labour Party or the Labour Cabinet or between both sides of the House. There was no agreement.
Mr. Brown: That is fair enough. I take the point. Nevertheless, it is applicable in this instance.
The very basis of the debate today is that the Government were elected on a spurious campaign, not least that substantial changes should be made to the rights of trade unionists to picket and to have union membership agreements
It was not surprising that in an election campaign held in the wake of the so-called winter of discontent, the electorate having been literally brainwashed by the media into believing that there were thousands of rotting corpses in undertakers' parlours because of the actions of wicked trade unionists, that thousands of people were being denied hospital care, many dying as a result, again because of the actions of wicked trade

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unionists, that the Black Death was just around the corner because of rotting rubbish in the streets, yet again caused by the actions of wicked trade unionists, and so on, there was bound to be a backlash against trade unionists and trade unions and, therefore, a great deal of support for a "clobber the trade unions" campaign, which was the type of campaign run by the Tory Party.
We have had the enactment of the Employment Bill, but before the ink is dry on that measure, which severely restricts rights that trade unionists have enjoyed for nearly 80 years, we have to consider these two codes of practice. What are these codes of practice meant to explain? They are meant to explain what the Act means. It seems that the Secretary of State is not too confident about the Act and feels that a set of ground rules will avoid conflict in future.
These codes will only add to the panoply of the law on industrial relations. I do not propose to quote section A, paragraph 5, because it has been quoted often enough. At the end of the day, only judges can decide what a statute means. These codes can only add admissible evidence in any case.
The picketing code, on page 14—"Essential Supplies and Services"—warns pickets not to disrupt essential supplies and gives a list of eight illustrations. This list goes much wider than that contained in the TUC's guide of February 1979. Indeed, it goes much wider than the definitions of a national emergency in section 1 of the Emergency Powers Act 1920, under which the Government may declare emergencies and use the Armed Forces.
If the Government had any serious intention of reaching an accommodation with organised workers, why were they not prepared to allow the TUC's voluntary guide of 1979 the chance to be proved? I am convinced that, with the better climate prevailing within the trade union movement following the winter of discontent, that voluntary code could have been made to work.
These codes can only make industrial relations worse. No right-thinking person should expect workers to give up rights that were hard earned by their predecessors.
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The Government have rehearsed the argument, mainly through the media, that these codes represent a defence of the rights of workers, but they have not succeeded in conning anyone in the trade union movement. I know that Tory Members will quote public opinion polls and so on. However, if trade unions are weakened by the introduction of these codes, as surely they will be, individual rights must equally be weakened. I am sure that all hon. Members sincerely hope that the effects of the combination of the Act and the codes will not be as bad as I fear. Alas, I cannot help but feel that situations will arise similar to those that we experienced under the Industrial Relations Act 1971. I am sure that all but a handful of Tory Victoriana in this place and in industry will freely concede that we want a return to the situation that obtained under the 1971 Act as badly as we want a hole in the head.
I do not think that any Labour Member or anyone in the trade union movement would deny that there has been an excessive number of strikes. I do not claim that isolated excesses might not occur again in the future. But, having said that, my concern is that law or codes based on hard cases can only be bad law, and bad law will suffer as bad law has suffered in the past and, perhaps, more to the point, will do nothing to prevent the very occasional incidents that have occurred in the past and will occur again in the future. If the experience of the last Tory Government is anything to go by, the position can only be exacerbated and can only undermine—this is the tragedy—responsible trade union leadership.
Section E, paragraph 31, suggests six as the maximum for the number of pickets at any works entrance. During the last firemen's strike—it seems ironic that we may be on the verge of another—because of my then responsibility in the Government for the Army, I had to travel the length and breadth of the kingdom. I came into contact with Fire Brigades Union pickets at close quarters almost daily for the duration of the strike, because I travelled almost daily meeting troops and invariably met firemen and firemen's pickets en route. With one exception, I never saw what could be said to be a massed picket, and, with one exception, I never had a cross word with

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any picket. The one exception involved about 20 pickets, with whom I took part in a very amiable television interview after I had completed my visit that day.
The vast majority of pickets whom I met were fewer in number than the six suggested in the code. In the future, once we lay down a maximum of six, we shall guarantee a minimum of six. Such a requirement will appeal to the bloody-minded and represents an absolute incentive for large-scale picketing, which no one really wants, even though there are times when large-scale picketing is the only quick way to end a dispute.
Without doubt, the closed shop code is an expression of the hatred of Conservative Members for union membership agreements. The need for periodic reviews of agreements on the closed shop has already been exposed as dangerous nonsense. At least one major public sector employer was already seeking to renegotiate an agreement, as it had the impression that that was required by law. Can anyone imagine the National Union of Mineworkers giving up the right to its closed shop agreement? I cannot.
One of the cases of conscientious objection to trade union membership about which I have heard happens to be supported by that Tory front organisation, NAFF. It concerns an individual, well known to me, who for many years had been an enthusiastic member of a trade union, to the extent that for some years he was a member of the local executive committee of his trade union. After many years of active trade unionism, his trade union negotiated a union membership agreement, following which he left the union. Then he appealed to a tribunal, claiming that he had a conscientious objection to trade union membership.
How can any individual who has worked in an industry for many years, been a voluntary member of a trade union and been so active as to be part of the executive body of that union in his region of the country now claim that he has a conscientious objection to trade union membership for no other reason than that a union membership agreement has been negotiated in his industry? Is this the sort of maverick martyr that the Government are intent on finding to
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make sticks with which to beat the trade union movement? That is the opinion of the trade union movement, and it is one that I support.
7.15 pm
Mr. George Gardiner: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State began the debate by putting these codes of practice into the context of the legislation and relating them to the steps needed to fulfil our election commitments to restore a fairer balance between the rights and the duties of trade unions and their members and a more even balance in industrial bargaining. I was glad that he did so, because it gives me a chance to make clear, contrary to many of the assertions sometimes made from the Opposition Benches that I am in some way in deep disagreement with my right hon. Friend about his stated determination to proceed "step by step" in meeting these objectives, that I support a step-by-step approach and that I am concerned merely to satisfy myself that each step we take is effective and that there should be more steps than one in this process. It is in that light that we have to look at the codes of practice and ask especially whether they are an effective way of bringing about what we want to achieve.
I ask myself three questions. First, I ask whether quasi-legislation of this kind is desirable in principle. That question was answered admirably by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst) and, with his usual clarity, by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), so I shall not detain the House by restating those arguments.
However, there is one point about which I am puzzled, and I should be grateful if my right hon. Friend could put me right. We have been assured that these codes are not intended as guidance to the courts, yet we read in paragraph 5 of both these codes that
"any provisions of the Code are to be admissible in evidence and taken into account in proceedings before any court."
I am puzzled to know who is supposed to take them into account in any court hearing. Obviously, counsel for one side or the other will take them into account, but is a jury and is a judge expected to do so? If they are expected to take them into account, how can it

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be said that the codes are not intended to be guidance to a court?
My second question concerns whether these codes clarify the position for those who are concerned in these matters in day-to-day industrial life. As originally presented in draft form, the codes were a mixture of statements of the law, interpretations of that law and pious hopes. It is at least to be welcomed that they have now been separated under their proper headings. As a result, we know now the sections setting out to state the law and interpret it and those which merely state our desires. But I still find it objectionable that they should appear together in the same document and appear to be enjoying equality of status in being presented to hon. Members in this form for vote by the House tonight. The initial sections clarify the law. No one can object to them. The later sections clarify what we think desirable but what we have shrunk from legislating upon.
Another question I ask myself is whether these codes will really affect many people's behaviour in day-by-day industrial relations. It would be nice if they did. It would make life simpler for all of us if everyone could behave in the reasonable manner that is outlined. I suspect—indeed, I feel pretty certain—that unless there is some legislative backing to these requirements, not a great deal of notice will be taken of them.
In passing, I should like to remark on a paradox. We are often told, in the spheres of race relations and of equality of opportunity between the sexes, that it is appropriate to legislate if one wishes to affect people's attitudes and consequent behaviour. Yet in this sphere we are told that it is not appropriate to legislate if one wishes to change the attitudes and behaviour of trade union leaders and shop stewards. I find this paradox in argument at least intriguing.
Viscount Cranborne: Does my hon. Friend feel that legislation is appropriate for sexual equality and other matters to which he refers?
Mr. Gardiner: I do not know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether I would be in order in answering that question at length, although I would be delighted to do so. My hon. Friend might have a conversation with me afterwards. I have promised to be brief. I do not wish to argue the
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merits of those questions. I would only say that if the logic of the one case holds, it should equally hold in the field we are discussing.
What will be the effect of these codes? One sees recurring time and again in the latter sections the word "should". Every time that this word is used, it is an admission of a gap in the parent legislation—something that my right hon. Friend and the rest of us would like to see happen but upon which, for one reason or another, he judged it not prudent to bring forward legislation.
I had intended to give one example but, in view of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken), I shall give another. Section G of the draft code of practice on picketing is concerned with essential supplies and services. It states:
"Pickets should take very great care to ensure that their activities do not cause distress, hardship or inconvenience to members of the public who are not involved in the dispute."
Lower down are listed essential supplies and services that ought to be immune from this kind of industrial action. They include distribution of medical supplies, supplies essential to health in hospitals, animal feeding stuffs, livestock, and fire, ambulance, medical and nursing services. It is a long list. Does anyone in the House on either side seriously believe that certain unions that have made it their stock-in-trade to act in defiance of these moral objectives will take the blindest bit of notice of section G of this draft code of practice? I do not believe for one moment that they will. It is known that there are unions in the Health Service, with shop stewards at the sharp end in the hospitals, which make a point of using this leverage to further their cause in disputes.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: There is quite a bit of substance in what my hon. Friend says. Would he not agree that if these codes of practice are passed by the House and if unions or groups of trade unionists ignore them, as many may do, the public will at least know that they were going against the will of Parliament?
Mr. Gardiner: This raises the whole question of the validity of codes of practice and quasi-legislation of this kind. I do not think that public judgment of

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action of that kind will be affected in the least by whether it is covered by a code of practice. The public already finds action of this kind abhorrent. Its view will be the same in the future as in the past before these codes of practice—
Mr. Gorst: Does my hon. Friend recall with what interest the general public observed the resolution of this House with regard to not going to the Olympic Games?
Mr. Gardiner: That is a fair point. When some of my right hon. and hon. Friends put their hands on their hearts and seek to assure us that these codes of practice will have a significant effect in areas such as the one I have described, I regard them as being in a similar position to the parents who have to go out of their way to reassure young children, who have been eavesdropping too much on the conversation of their elders, that Father Christmas does exist, that he is real and that if they close their eyes and go to sleep he will come down the chimney on Christmas Eve.
I regret that I do not believe in Father Christmas. I do not believe that these codes of practice will make the blindest bit of difference to those trade unions that seek their ends by putting pressure on the jugular vein of society. The only way that we can give the public protection against such action is by legislation and is not to be derived from codes of practice of this kind.
My second example has been stimulated by the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East in dealing with the freedom of the press. Like my hon. Friend, I am a journalist. Like him, I have worked in newspapers for many years in various capacities. In passing, I ask him not to perpetuate the illusion that there are people wearing green eyeshades in newspaper offices. I have never seen one in my life.
Section E of the draft code of practice on closed shop agreements and arrangements, entitled "The Closed Shop and the Freedom of the Press", gives a long catalogue of subjective judgments of what should happen in newspaper offices. It states that journalists should enjoy the same rights as other employees, that if they feel that trade union membership is
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contrary to the work they are trying to do this should be respected by employers and unions, that they should not be disciplined by trade unions for writing anything in accordance with professional standards, that editors should be free to decide and should not be subjected to improper pressure, and so on. All those are splendid statements of the obvious for anyone who has engaged in journalism for many years.
For this reason, I was entranced by the picture that my hon. Friend conjured up of what would happen as a newspaper was going to press and a report arrived of another of those most interesting contributions to public debate by the right hon. Member for Down, South. I am sure that my hon. Friend, like me, has worked in the composing rooms of newspapers in these situations. I have been responsible for getting slugs of hot lead into a page before it is sent to the foundry. I agree with him about the pressures that bear in at such times.
We were asked what would happen if someone ran in and cried "Help, help. The boys in the lino room are refusing to set this speech because they believe it to be racialist." Certainly, what would not happen is that someone would reply "Hey, look. Have you read paragraph 61(1) of section E of the code of practice on closed shop agreements and arrangements?" If anybody did say that, the reply would be certain. I cannot repeat it in the House, but I shall place in my hon. Friend's ear afterwards the two words that would be used. We must accept that nothing in the code gives legal protection to the freedom of the press. We should have the honesty to acknowledge that.
We are in the last stage of the discussions and debates on employment legislation in this Session. We should be now looking more to the future and to the Green Paper on trade union immunities. I hope that we shall then enter a more productive phase in our discussions. With regret, I conclude that much in these codes is mere window dressing. They express that which we believe to be desirable but on which we have not had the courage to legislate. If we are to fulfil the commitment which we made to the electors, we have to put many more goods into the shop.
I wish my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State well. I should like to think

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that from now on everyone will behave with sweetness and light along the lines suggested in the draft codes. However, I am afraid that in the end their publication will not make much difference. They are no substitutes for proper legislation to protect the interests of the public. For that reason, I regret that I shall be unable to support the codes in the Division Lobby tonight.
7.23 pm
Mr. John Golding: The second report from the Select Committee on Employment is of great significance to the debate. A majority of the Select Committee agrees that the codes are constitutionally undesirable. When replying to the report, the Secretary of State tried to justify the codes by stating his legal authority. That is not the issue. He was replying to a criticism which we have not made, no doubt to divert attention from justifiable criticisms which we have made. One distinguished trade union officer described the Secretary of State as a pickpocket of trade union rights rather than a mugger. In relation to the codes of practice, he is a confidence trickster.
The Select Committee believes that it is wrong for the Secretary of State to use the power bestowed upon him in the way that he has done in order to whip through controversial codes. I have observed the indecent interest shown by Government Whips in Conservative members of the Select Committee. They are trying to whip through the codes by a procedure which does not permit amendment. That is unsatisfactory, particularly since the codes can be taken into account in the courts.
The Secretary of State said that there is no extension of law. That is not at issue. Expressions of a political opinion will be taken into account in the courts. Trade unions will regard that as another example of justice being more difficult for them to achieve in the courts. It is already hard enough to persuade trade unionists to settle such matters at tribunals and in the courts, because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that great bias is shown against them by those institutions.
Mr. Lyell: The hon. Member is dealing with a quasi-constitutional matter. Will he explain the difference between the
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constitutional position of these codes and that of the codes of practice enacted under the 1971 Act, maintained by his Government in 1975 and re-enacted by that Government through the institution of ACAS? What is the distinction between those codes and these?
Mr. Golding: I am speaking as Chairman of the Select Committee, not for my party. I speak for the majority of that Select Committee. Whether or not its members agree with the action taken by the previous Administration, they believe that in any case two wrongs do not make a right. They say that the procedure is wrong. Some members of the Labour Party would say that there is a difference in the codes in terms of the degree of acceptability to the TUC and the CBI—although I do not rest on that argument.
The Committee unanimously decided that
"the consultation procedure adopted by the Secretary of State on the draft Codes has been unsatisfactory."
The Committee said that the procedure
"shows scant regard for the views of Parliament and goes far to deny the Committee, and the House, a proper opportunity to make representations on the Codes at a stage when they could still influence their final form."
The Secretary of State's reply to that is totally unsatisfactory. We do not say that the time available to the CBI and the TUC is too short. The complaint is that there was too little time for the Select Committee and Parliament to consider the issue. The Select Committee had to complete its business for the debate to take place in this Session.
I regret that the Leader of the House has not accepted the Select Committee's recommendation that
"there should be a full debate on the draft Codes before they are submitted for approval, so that the issues which we have mentioned in this report and others, such as the question of 'deeply-held personal conviction' under section 7 of the Employment Act, can be thoroughly discussed."
The Government did not deal with that. As a consequence, the codes show signs of rush and muddle. Mistake after mistake occurs in them. More time should have been given.
It is clear that the code is misleading on ballots on the closed shop. There is no need in law for a ballot to be held

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before agreement is reached on a membership agreement or closed shop. A ballot serves only to provide a defence for an employer against a charge of unfair dismissal. It is wrong that the code should be so misleading. It will not be held in any trust.
I regret that the evidence by the chief police officers was not heeded more. Unlike the Secretary of State, the police clearly want trade unionists to have the right to picket and to be able to engage in the peaceful persuasion of their fellow workers. It was refreshing to hear the chief police officers standing up for the freedom of trade unionists to put their view to their fellow workers. I thought that there was a great difference of emphasis between the police officers and the Secretary of State. The police officers obviously wished to defend the interests of trade unionists, while the Secretary of State wished to restrict them.
Mr. Terry, the chief constable of Sussex and president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, stated in the Select Committee:
"We see the value of a number as being illustrative of the scale but we do not think that 6 is necessarily at all the right number."
As an alternative wording, he suggested:
"As a general rule it will not often be necessary for the number to exceed 6."
The hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Townend) asked:
"Under what circumstances would you say it was acceptable that the numbers should be greater than 6?"
Mr. Terry and Sir Philip Knights both tried to reply at once. Mr. Terry replied "Many of us can". Sir Philip Knights replied:
"I can think of an example from my own area, a very large factory with a great number of entrances, many of which are wide, with a large workforce coming in early in the morning in large numbers. I would be quite prepared to see 5 or 6 on each side of the gate as long as nobody else was there interfering, because I do not believe that 6 would necessarily be able to achieve what they are rightly there seeking to achieve and that is trying to persuade the other people round to their point of view. In the circumstances I have in mind I could well see 10 or a dozen would not be out of place, but on the other hand I can see circumstances where more than 2 would be more than enough."
Sir Philip Knights is the chief police officer in the most heavily industrialised
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part of Britain—the West Midlands. He has to control some very difficult circumstances. When the police gave evidence on the numbers for picketing—and I am now relying on my memory—the point made was that, if faced with 50 pickets when it had been said that there should be a maximum of six, what were the police to do with the other 44? The attitude of the police is simple—namely, that trade unionists and working people have a great deal of common sense. They are people with whom one can talk and reason. They are people with whom it is easy to reach agreement. One police officer made the favourable comparison of picketing with the control of football crowds. For me, that put the whole problem into perspective.
The Secretary of State did not accept the advice of the police. We must ask "Why not?" Is it because he does not believe that trade unions are rightly there to put their point of view? Why should the Secretary of State expect trade unionists to take the advice of the code and the advice of a politician rather than the common sense view of the police?
The majority of the members of the Select Committee favour the deletion of the proposal for periodic reviews of any closed shop. I am sorry that the Minister did not accept our recommendation that it should be omitted and given further consideration. When the hon. Member for Dorking (Mr. Wickenden) asked the Secretary of State in August
"Can I invite you to resist any suggestion that there should be regular votes on existing closed shops?",
the Secretary of State replied:
"Here speaks the voice of experience. I listen to this as I listen to everything else. This is something we will take into account."
The Secretary of State rejected the voice of experience and stuck to dogma.
I oppose the codes because, far from bringing about industrial peace, they would provide the basis for further conflict. We can do without that. Had the Secretary of State tried to achieve some agreement between the CBI and the TUC, had he been able, through ACAS, to process that agreement, there would have been a great deal of support for these codes from both sides of the House. Only one speaker tonight, apart from the Secretary of State, has had anything to say in favour of the codes. [HON.

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MEMBERS: "We are all waiting to speak."] The weight of opposition to the way that the codes have been presented has been surprising. On the issue of consultation—and I include here the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)—the Committee was unanimous in denouncing the lack of consultation about the preparation of the codes that are before us tonight.
7.36 pm
Mr. David Madel: I genuinely welcome the publication of the codes and I am sure that a number of my hon. Friend's do likewise. But I also recognise, as I think every speaker has done this evening, that in choosing the closed shop and picketing we have attempted codes on two of the most difficult aspects of industrial relations. Section 3 of the Employment Act 1980 provides that the Secretary of State may introduce codes for the improvement of industrial relations. The Government wisely left out the additional part of that sentence that was in the 1975 Act—
"and also the extension of collective bargaining"—
which is a separate and more tricky matter for Parliament to pronounce on.
Even though the Secretary of State has the power to introduce codes himself, ACAS was given the opportunity to be consulted. ACAS can still give guidance on the codes, and it can produce variations of the codes if it wishes to do so. I accept that the Government have a duty, both as an employer and as the Government of the day, to offer practical advice and guidance on those two important matters. Much of the code on picketing follows guidance from the TUC which was published nearly two years ago. It follows the good practice built up by employers and unions over the years where industrial relations have been good.
We must accept that if we had not had all the legislation of the mid-1970s there would not have been such a helter-skelter rush towards the closed shop. It would have developed in various ways, but some of its practical disadvantages would not have occurred and might not have necessitated a code of practice.
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding).
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I read carefully the Select Committee report. Some of the things it said were useful. I wish to draw the attention of the House to one remark in the report that I believe to be inaccurate and possibly misleading. Paragraph 3 of the report states:
"Once the Secretary of State has laid his draft Codes they can no longer be amended".
That is not strictly true, because section 3(6) of the 1980 Act states:
"The Secretary of State may from time to time revise the whole or any part of a Code of Practice issued under this section".
I am not suggesting that in two years we should necessarily push out the whole of one of the codes, or any other code. But at least subsection (6) is so drafted that parts of the code—and I have something to say about certain parts that may need amending—can be revised when the Secretary of State feels that that is necessary. Subsection (6) rightly stresses that the same process must be gone through—namely, consultation with ACAS and opinions sought from other interested parties.
I shall confine most of my remarks to one or two practical matters that occur in the codes and ask some questions about certain paragraphs. Page 4, paragraph 9, of the code on picketing deals with the question of employees picketing in support of other employees but not picketing at their own place of work. For example, if there was a further dispute between the National Coal Board and the miners, and if in one or two power stations certain power workers decided to take action in sympathy with the miners, the only goods that they could blockade and picket would be the coal going into the power stations. They would not have immunity from civil action if they took action against oil or other goods that were not supplied by the NCB. Paragraph 9 goes on to state:
"If they"—
that is, the people taking secondary action—
"impose or threaten an indiscriminate blockade",
they are not immune. I can foresee difficulties with regard to the word "threaten". How do we make certain that anyone wishing to take further action against those who are striking has perceived a

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threat to bring about an indiscriminate blockade?
I turn to paragraph 12. This deals with picketing
"At or near his own place of work".
It adds that that phrase
"is not defined in statute".
It goes on to say that it is permissible to picket one's own place of work but that one may not do so at another place
"even if those who work there are employed by the same employer."
I assume that there would be immunity if two plants with the same employer faced each other and if people from plant A decided to picket plant B. In other words, if the plants were opposite each other, it might be reasonable, practicable and sensible for pickets to move from one plant to another provided that the plants were sufficiently close and had the same employer.
Paragraph 13 refers to lorry drivers and mobile workers. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Lyell) is in his place. I am grateful, because I gave him notice that I would refer to action which took place at the Buncefield oil depot during the 1979 dispute. As I understand paragraph 13, if an oil depot was jointly owned by Shell, Texaco and Esso, and if Texaco workers were in dispute with the Texaco management, they could picket and seek to persuade any Texaco tanker from entering or leaving the oil depot. However, I take it that that immunity would not apply if Texaco employees tried to persuade Shell or Esso drivers who at that time might not be in dispute with their managements. Paragraph 13 does not make the position wholly clear.
I mentioned lorry drivers because the Government have rightly pointed out that there are groups of people in respect of whom it might be difficult to define where the place of work was. When the place of work is jointly owned, as that oil depot in Hemel Hempstead is, I think that particular difficulties could arise in relation to interpretation.
Paragraph 14 says that people may picket at their former place of work even though they may have been dismissed by their employer. It could be argued that
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they do not work there as they have been dismissed. However, I assume that if they were dismissed, and if the plant had closed down, there would be immunity if they picketed the headquarters of the firm which closed down the plant. This matter came up during our general debates on the Employment Act, but this is the first time that we have had a chance to go through a code in detail, and I thought that it was worth mentioning.
The code rightly says in paragraph 31 that "in general" the number of pickets should not exceed six at any entrance. That is clear, but on occasions there could be nine or a dozen pickets, or it might be thought that there were nine or a dozen pickets. One simple reason could be that if members of a trade union national executive sought to persuade its union members to cease picketing, in theory they would have to join the picket line and discuss the matter with them before they could persuade them to cease the picketing. An employer might argue that there were more than six pickets.
However, I hope that the intention of this paragraph is that there should be a duty on management to keep in close touch with pickets when an industrial dispute occurs. In fact, many managers do. In some cases they provide facilities such as a room or a telephone. They will certainly need to do so, because the code later talks about the need for pickets to keep in touch with trade union headquarters. I believe that there will be occasions when there will be more than six pickets, but, provided that management keeps in touch and people understand that paragraph 31 says that "in general" the number should not exceed six, we should avoid any particular difficulties.
Paragraphs 33 and 34 refer to the duties which the organisers of pickets should carry out. They refer to the need to keep in touch with union headquarters and permit the distribution of badges. I wish to stress the role of management in this regard. If management keeps in touch with the picketing, it could do a lot to reduce the tension that might have arisen.
I wish to make a few comments on the closed shop. The code says that it

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should be flexibly and tolerantly applied. Paragraph 25 states:
"The employer should also carefully consider the effects of a closed shop on his future employment policy and on industrial relations".
In other words, there is an obvious duty on him to inform any new employees as to his view on a closed shop and what previous discussions may have taken place. However, in paragraphs 26 to 29 a number of duties are imposed on a trade union before it starts closed shop negotiations. For example, paragraph 27 states:
"A union should be sure that its members who would be affected themselves favour a closed shop".
As I see it, that is an invitation to a union to apply for money under section I of the 1980 Act in order to ballot its members and get a general feel of what the view is in respect of a closed shop. It will cost nothing, because section 1 of the Act says that the Secretary of State can lay down certain conditions whereby money for ballots would be given by the Government. In other words, it gives him a wide discretionary power. In view of what has appeared in the code, a preliminary view and a general opinion ought to be sought before going into the practical nuts and bolts of negotiating a closed shop arrangement.
The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) referred to paragraph 54(c). That is one amendment that I think we shall have to make as time goes on. That is the one part of the code about which I am unhapppy. Paragraph 54(c) uses the words
"because the action had not been affirmed in a secret ballot".
This relates to disciplinary action. That comes very close to writing the rules of a union. Some trade unions give their executive the power to call a strike or other industrial action after a ballot. I think I am correct in saying that the NUM must ballot and that more than 55 per cent. of the membership must vote. But that does not necessarily mean a strike. It means that the executive of the NUM has the power, if it so wishes, to call a strike or other industrial action. The same applies to other trade unions.
I should like the code to state that disciplinary action should not be taken or threatened by a union against a member
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if the rules and procedures of that union have not been carried out. People may argue that it is incumbent on trade unions constantly to look at their rules. It most certainly is—[HON. MEMBERS: "They do."]—but under section 1 of the Act they can receive money for balloting their members as to whether their rules should be revised. I think that a change could be made there in due course. If a union has democratically arranged rules on the taking of industrial action, which do not necessarily mean that it must be affirmed by secret ballot that it should be a strike—after all, it could be some other sort of industrial action—that part of the code may well need to be looked at again.
Whatever one says about the codes, in my view the duty still remains on management to do its best to improve industrial relations. The codes should be seen as a supplement to, and not a substitute for, good industrial relations and real efforts by management and unions to improve the consultative procedures at work. I am certain that the codes are designed to spread the good in industry—and there is a great deal of good—throughout the country. I commend them to the House. If they are correctly and carefully interpreted, they will do good for industrial relations rather than harm them.
7.50 pm
Mr. Ron Leighton: One's views on these codes depend largely on one's view of trade unions, whether one thinks that trade unions are evils—one Conservative Member describes them as poisons that should be abolished—or whether one thinks that they are beneficial to working people. I take the view that organised labour is no less patriotic and no less admirable than is organised capital or business. In fact, owners of capital often see their major role as investing their capital abroad or speculating against sterling, whereas those who work for a living were born in this country, they live in this country and they will die in this country, and, therefore, they have a vested interest in it.
Because of my experience of the trade union movement, I greatly admire the men and women whom I have known in my working life and who have given their service voluntarily to the trade union

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movement in order to improve the working conditions of the people with whom they work. When Mr. George Isaacs, well known as a Minister of Labour in this House, became general secretary of NATSOPA, the average life expectation of our members was 40, because the working conditions were so bad. We have changed much of that—
Mr. Needham rose—
Mr. Leighton: I shall give way shortly to the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great affection. I look not only to him but to The Daily Telegraph, an unimpeachable source of Conservative thinking, for its views on trade unions. In an editorial last Tuesday, The Daily Telegraph said that
"trade unions have won yet another epoch-making battle in their perilous campaign to build up their strength, consolidate their authority and assert their independence … the success … of free unions had nothing to do with the justice of their cause, self-evident as this was, but resulted mainly from their threat to strike and the impressive credibility with which they were able to back it up."
I thought that that was good, but I read on and found that the article referred to Poland. It is all right to do those things in Poland, but it is not all right to do them in Britain. Symbolically, the movement in Poland is known as "Solidarity". "Solidarity" has been translated into English legal terminology as "secondary action". Recently secondary action took place everywhere in Poland, and it was cheered on by The Daily Telegraph and by Conservative Members. I wonder why they are so hypocritical and why they are pushing for legislation in this House to outlaw that type of solidarity.
Mr. Needham: The hon. Gentleman complained that owners of capital took their money overseas. Will he comment on the investment policy of Lord Briginshaw?
Mr. Leighton: I am not aware of his investment policies, and I do not think that many other people are.
Solidarity means helping one's friends and allies, and that is to be outlawed in this country.
I am interested in the status of these codes. The law should be clear and every-one
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should know where he stands in relation to the law. The codes are a mixture of law, opinion—very narrow opinion—and advice. They are mongrel measures. There should be a separation between explanations of law and opinion. The advice that is given in these documents is given in the same imperious and authoritative language and tone as the explanation of the law. The ACAS codes—ACAS refused to have anything to do with these codes—are to be used only at tribunals. Tribunals are bodies—not courts—of men with experience in industry and men of common sense. Now, we have new codes that are to be used in the courts, and we are told that they are analogous to the highway code.
Page 1 of the code on picketing says:
"The code … imposes no legal obligations",
but it also says:
"The Employment Act 1980 provides that any provisions of the code are to be admissible in evidence and taken into account in proceedings before any court"
Surely there is a contradiction there. Which is it to be? Presumably the judges will decide, but what is the status?
It seems that we are being asked to pass quasi-law. If we are to have anything similar to law, it should be introduced through due parliamentary procedure. There should be a Second Reading and a Committee stage. I was a member of the Committee that considered the Employment Bill. Why were these codes not considered then, when they could have been given proper scrutiny? It is unsatisfactory that they should be brought before us tonight and whipped through with a Conservative majority, without proper parliamentary scrutiny or procedure. That smacks of dictatorial behaviour.
The code on picketing does not set out the rights of pickets, which is what a picket wants to know. It simply states the limits on pickets, in the most imperious language. I have taken great offence at the language that is used in the code. We are told that a picket can picket
"at or near his place of work",
but no definition is given of where that is. No one can explain that. If a picket steps inside the gates, he is told by the code that he will be sued for trespass. The code also states that if a person "aids or abets" anyone he will be
"liable to be punished by the courts".

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How threatening that is. How menacing is the language. Is that the language that we want for industrial relations when we seek co-operation amongst our fellow citizens? Will that lead to harmonious relations, or will it lead to conflict?
Page 6 of the code tells us what trade union officials may do. It tells shop stewards what they may do. It then tells branch officials what they may do. It goes on to refer to regional officials and to tell them what they may do. It then moves to national officials, and then even to general secretaries and tells them what they may do. I do not think that those officers need the advice of the authors of these documents. They probably know much more about these affairs than do the civil servants or whoever drew up the documents.
I now come to the role of the police. We were told in Committee that the police would be kept out and that this was nothing to do with the police.
Mr. Lyell: Has the hon. Gentleman glanced at the TUC guidelines produced in February 1979? They say what pickets may or may not do in various circumstances, such as when they enter private properties. If it is not a criticism of one publication that it tells them what to do, why should it be a criticism of the other?
Mr. Leighton: I am glad that the hon. Member thinks that we should take some notice of the TUC. The TUC has condemned the code that is now before us and has agreed to have no part in it. My criticism of the Government and of the way in which they have dealt with the matter is that they have alienated the TUC. Instead of getting agreement and proceeding by way of agreement, they have decided to do it purely on the basis of the views of one man, the Secretary of State.
As I said earlier, we were told that it would be nothing to do with the police. We were told that any proceedings would be civil and not criminal proceedings. We all know what happened when it was a matter of criminal proceedings. The Official Solicitor had to be dreamt up—I had never heard of him before—to rescue everybody.
Paragraph 28 of the code on picketing, on page 10, says:
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"As regards the criminal law the police have considerable discretionary powers to limit the number of pickets".
Paragraph 31 of the code says that
"pickets and their organisers should ensure that in general the number of pickets does not exceed six at any entrance to a workplace; frequently a smaller number will be appropriate."
The code does not even guarantee that there shall be six pickets. But why choose a number? What sense is there in choosing a specific number when all the chief constables advise against giving a set number?
What happens if there are seven pickets? The police will take the code as guidance and want only six. They will count the number of pickets. I guarantee that there will be some people who will volunteer to be No. 7. There will be martyrs who will want to volunteer. There is a recipe for conflict in the code, and I cannot see what sense there is in it. I despair of the present dogmatic Conservative Government, who seem to have lost all English pragmatism by being so rigid. In picking out a figure, they are making a rod for their own back.
On page 12 of the code there is advice on how to organise a picket. It mentions the need to have a letter of authority from the union to show a policeman. It says:
"Even when he is not on the picket line himself he"—
that is, the organiser—
"should be available".
When it says that the organiser "should" be available, what does that mean? Is that law? Is that advice? Is that guidance? It is not advice from the police but direction from the police on the number of people who "should" be present on the picket line. Again, I ask whether that is law, guidance or advice.
Mr. George Park: It is an instruction.
Mr. Leighton: It is an instruction.
The next paragraph in the code sets out the main functions of a picket organiser. Five such functions are set out, and I shall not bore the House by reading them. One of my noble Friends in the other place said that if a picket organiser did all these things he would be a

715
cross between a scoutmaster and a sergeant-major. There is an element of comedy here.
On page 14 there is further advice to pickets. Paragraph 37 says:
"Pickets should take very great care to ensure that their activities do not cause … inconvenience to members of the public".
How is it possible to organise a strike without causing inconvenience to the public? Will anyone tell me that the strike in Gdansk did not cause any inconvenience to the public? But apparently this is how a picket now has to organise a strike. He must not interfere with
"the movement of essential goods and supplies".
Then, with regard to secondary action, the code says that the pickets' activities
"will be immune from civil proceedings only if … the picketing is likely to achieve that purpose."
What do the Government think the pickets are there for? Do they think that they are picketing for fun? Do they think that they are there to amuse themselves in the winter, standing round coal fires? Do the Government believe that in doing this the pickets are not seeking to achieve their purpose?
Who is to decide whether the picketing is
"likely to achieve that purpose"?
In the end, I suppose, we shall ask the judges. We have already heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) that Lord Scarman does not want the obligation of deciding whether or not that is so.
I now turn to the closed shop. Under the 1980 Act, the closed shop is not illegal. I should have thought that in a code of practice on the closed shop it would be made clear that closed shops are not illegal, but there is no mention of that fact.
On page 5 of the code on the closed shop, it is said that a tribunal can order a union to act in breach of its own rules. We were told in Committee that the fact that a union acted in accordance with its own rules was no defence. A tribunal could, for example, say that it was unreasonable not to recruit a person because that was in breach of, say, the Bridlington
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agreement, but in paragraph 18, on page 5, we find the following statement:
"At common law a person may complain to the courts … that action taken against him by a trade union is contrary to its own rules".
So we are told in one breath that a trade union can be ordered to breach its rules and in the next that a member can complain that a union is acting against its own rules. I hope that the Minister will clear up that conflict for me.
The whole code is written from the standpoint of what I consider to be uninformed opposition to the closed shop. The Secretary of State said so. On the Government Benches the closed shop is regarded as being contrary to personal liberty. Incidentally, I did not notice any concern on the Government Benches about personal liberty when we dealt with unfair dismissal.
I cannot think of anything more important to a man's liberty and his whole life than his job. If he gets the sack and is placed on the dole, does not that rather affect his liberty? Yet the whole onus of proof at an industrial tribunal is now being shifted. In addition, the minimum award of two weeks' wages is removed. A man can now be unfairly dismissed and not get a penny compensation.
No one on the Conservative Benches—where people are worried about personal liberty—objected to that, yet there is objection to the closed shop on the basis that it jeopardises personal liberty. There is no evidence in the code to support that argument. There is no attempt to deal with the acceptance of analogous practices in the professions. A barrister has to belong to an inn of court. How can the Government accept that without saying that an engineer or a printer has to belong to his trade union? We know that union membership agreements are a justifiable part of the present industrial scene. Millions of workers belong to them. Unless that is recognised, there is a recipe for conflict.
Part of paragraph 45 on page 12 of the draft code says:
"Where no secret ballot has previously been held—or where one has not been held for a long time—it would be appropriate to use one to test opinion."
What is that? Is that the law? It is not law. Those words do not appear in the Act. That is an expression of opinion and it is meaningless. It could be the

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recipe for much trouble-making. It is prejudice masquerading as law.
Either we want conflict or we want co-operation. Delegates at the CBI conference said that the present Tory Party was narrow in its thinking. It appears from the representatives of industry who were assembled at the CBI conference at Brighton that there is little knowledge of industry within the Tory Party. I am taking their word for it. We are asked rhetorically how many members of the Cabinet have ever run a business. I do not know the answer to that question. I merely ask how many of them have had experience of a closed shop. How many of those on the Government Benches who are railing against the iniquities of the closed shop and saying that it infringes personal liberty have had personal experience of it?
I worked in industry for over 30 years before I came to this place. I never worked in anything other than a closed shop. I do not claim much else, but I have some knowledge of the closed shop. My knowledge has not been obtained from books or leaflets. I acquired it from working within closed shops.
Mr. Park: I think that my hon. Friend should correct his statement about Conservative Members not knowing about closed shops. There are many lawyers on the Government Benches, and they are members of the most closed shop that one can get.
Mr. Leighton: That could be right. I suspect that the lawyers' closed shop has sent out a whip to its members to support the codes. They will be the ones who will do the best out of them. The codes will produce a great deal of work for them. They have a vested interest.
I never noticed any restriction of my liberties when I was working in closed shops. My colleagues know that I am free-thinking and very independent. I am very much a liberty-loving individual. If nothing else, I am extraordinarily individualistic. However, I felt that my freedom was enhanced in a closed shop. I felt that it was strengthened.
I went into a large works at the tender age of 14 years. In those circumstances, one could be intimidated. Nowadays, many people go to work for large firms that have their headquarters across the Atlantic or over the sea somewhere. They
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can feel isolated and weak as individuals. If there is a dispute between an individual and the boss, there is no equality if the individual is on his own against a large firm. If, in the words of the trade union motto, an injury to one is an injury to all, then on that basis there is some equality. It is rather like the old insurance company advertisement about getting the strength of the "union" around one.
Will not Conservative Members conceive that closed shops are run democratically? The officers and the members of the committees of my closed shops were elected by secret ballot every quarter. All the everyday issues were discussed at quarterly meetings that were attended by all the members. All the members were brought up with those traditions. If the decisions went against some members, they were able to appeal. We shall not get better industrial relations from the codes. They lead to conflict. I am convinced that the Government will learn to regret ever having brought in the Act and ever having introduced the codes.
8.15 pm
Mr. Richard Page: In making my contribution I shall endeavour to be brief. I wish to start by welcoming the draft codes of practice and I hope that they will come into operation as soon as possible. I believe that they will introduce a degree of guidance and form into our industrial relations. In the past, successive Governments have made the mistake of endeavouring to put the emphasis on creating far too much industrial relations law rather like creating the Ten Commandments, to stand immutable for all time. My experience on the shop floor tells me that we must be flexible and react to the changing circumstances that daily present themselves to us. For that reason I reject the arguments that have been advanced in favour of putting the codes into legislation and on to the statute book.
I am sure that we all found the arguments advanced by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) very attractive theoretically. However, I see them foundering in terms of sheer practicality when it is attempted to translate them into law. I also see them foundering on the realities that exist on the

719
shop floor. I felt that my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) put that case most strongly.
I was a member of the Committee that considered the Employment Bill as it passed through the House. I was much struck by the fact that the Bill provided a framework or skeleton on which we could hang various codes of practice that in time could be strengthened or eased, added to or completely deleted. That can be done in the light of practical experience without having to go through the painful process of once more rewriting major parts of our industrial relations legislation. The flexibility of the codes is their very strength.
When the Committee began to review the Employment Bill, we heard the traditional ritual remarks from Labour Members. They condemned the Bill and threatened its instant repeal. Emotive phrases were bandied about from the start about what would happen if the Bill were enacted. However, as the Committee's consideration of the Bill developed and as the members of the Committee continued to consider various aspects of the measure, I gained the impression that there was a growing feeling among Labour Members that the Government were bringing a balance and understanding into industrial relations, especially with the introduction of safeguards for individuals. After all, that is one of the very reasons why the trade union movement was developed in the first place—to protect individuals. The purpose of the Act is to do that and not to make a crude attempt to rip off or stultify one part of our society.
When Labour Members appreciate that and think about it, their attitudes will change. When I am old and grey the Labour Party may once more assume power, and I think that future Labour Governments will think more than once about repealing this measure, as they have so frequently threatened to do today. It is probably the thought of reselection hanging over their heads that makes them utter their ritual remarks.
I welcome the introduction of the codes and, of course, I recognise that aspects of them will not be 100 per cent. right. It would be a miracle if that were the case. So I was glad to hear my right
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hon. Friend the Secretary of State say that in the fullness of time we shall discuss the codes again and that they can be reconsidered and amended in the light of practice and experience gathered from the real world.
I do not intend to go nit-picking through the codes, because I am broadly in favour of their general thrust and direction. However, I feel that there is a potential source of irritation that could be better dealt with and explained now rather than in the possible emotional atmosphere that could exist on the shop floor. I refer to the percentage of support necessary to bring about a closed shop agreement. The old closed shop agreement used a figure of 60 per cent., but the new agreement will be based on a figure of 80 per cent. I see a potential area of conflict when it comes to the review of existing closed shop agreements.
Mr. Leighton: The code of practice states that 80 per cent. is the minimum. I do not think that any hon. Member received 80 per cent. of the votes at the last general election. The code of practice states that an employer could insist on far more than 80 per cent. What does the hon. Gentleman think of that?
Mr. Page: The hon. Gentleman is right. That is in the code of practice. Equally, it says that it is a matter of negotiation and guidance.
I have had experience of the closed shop and I have seen it in operation. As a result, I do not share the level of concern that is sometimes expressed by my hon. Friends about its operation. Equally, the anxiety expressed in the second report of the Select Committee on Employment, which was printed earlier this month, is an over-reaction. I disagree with its recommendation that the review procedures should be omitted and that time should be given for further consideration. The closed shop is not such a tender plant. It will not shrivel, die and wither away if employees are asked to reaffirm their decision. I do not think that that will happen. Indeed, I believe that it will have the opposite effect. It will reaffirm the belief held in the minds and hearts of closed shop members that it involves an ongoing democratic process. If any employees have doubts about voting for a closed shop, they will have

721
their minds eased by this legislation. They know that this measure will not be a one-way ticket and that the door will not close behind them without any chance of a review.
When one reads the code, one does not find it clear from paragraph (e) whether an existing closed shop arrangement has to obtain the new percentage of 80 per cent. or whether the old figure of 60 per cent. will be satisfactory at review time. Paragraph 45 says:
"Where no secret ballot has previously been held—or where one has not been held for a long time—it would be appropriate to use one to test opinion."
It then refers the reader to paragraphs 33 to 36. The only sentence in those paragraphs that might be relevant is the one that states:
"Employees should agree with the union on the figure appropriate in their case before the ballot and make this known to those entitled to vote".
That leaves a query in my mind. Does it mean that a percentage can be negotiated from 60 per cent. upwards, or will that percentage start at 80 per cent.? I should be grateful for clarification on that one point. Apart from that, I am in favour of the codes and believe that the quicker they are put into operation, the better it will be for this country.
8.22 pm
Mr. Jim Craigen: I have listened to the speeches from Government Back Benchers, and it would seem that the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Page) needs to convince some of his colleagues over the value of the codes and should not look to this side of the House.
The Secretary of State has denied that these codes represent back-door legislation. However, the partial legislative character of the codes represents a trapdoor for industry and commerce. They will open up wide areas of legislative and legitimate uncertainty.
Mr. Mellor rose—
Mr. Craigen: I shall not give way, because I wish to be brief.
It remains to be seen how the codes will be interpreted. They will be interpreted not by both Houses of Parliament but by industrial tribunals and the courts. While the Secretary of State was
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speaking there was an intervention, from which it became clear that Ministers are passing the buck to industrial tribunals and to the courts. The codes of practice are supposed to have an educative effect and they are supposed to give guidance. They will give a cloak of parliamentary respectability, and that will make them more difficult for employers and trade unions to operate.
The Chairman of the Select Committee touched on a number of issues. I shall confine my remarks to two areas. First, I am concerned about the uprating of the 80 per cent. minimum voting requirement. The code of practice suggests that many employers might seek to negotiate a higher percentage. That will serve as a green light and will give rise to industrial wrangling. Our present legislation is clear enough on that point. The provision will give rise to difficulties up and down the country.
Secondly, there was a suggestion that there should be a periodic review of closed shop agreements. The code suggests that that review should take place every few years or more frequently. That is an invitation to disruption and is a licence for industrial strife. Both the CBI and the TUC were united in their concern about its implication. I urge the Government to reconsider the proposal and to accept the point made by the Select Committee to the effect that the proposal should be defeated until it has been studied in greater detail.
The codes will not help industrial relations. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) spoke of the insensitivity of the language used in the code. He might be regarded as partisan. I shall therefore refer to the memorandum that has been sent to Members of Parliament by the British Institute of Management. It represents a wide cross-section of managerial opinion. The memorandum states that there is a strong minority feeling among managers that the draft codes are in places slightly biased against trade unions. The memorandum then mentions the abrasive language used in the code. It hardly seems conducive to the Government's declared aim of trying to improve the climate of industrial relations.
This afternoon, the Secretary of State said that it was no reflection on ACAS

723
that it did not care to comment on the codes. He might have added that it could be a reflection on the codes that ACAS declined to comment. Perhaps ACAS did not comment because of the inability of the codes to achieve the necessary backing from both sides of industry. The Government have opened a Pandora's box over these codes of practice. We shall consequently have far more difficulty in trying to improve industrial relations. A good deal more work will be thrust into the laps of the lawyers in courts and elsewhere in interpreting the codes, which Parliament has spent insufficient time determining.
8.29 pm
Mr. Nicholas Lyell: The three matters that I should like to deal with briefly, as I know that other hon. Members wish to speak, are the importance of good practice in industrial relations, constitutional matters—when I hope to take up some of the points made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell)—and the contents of the codes.
The importance of good industrial practice as a general concept is well recognised and respected on both sides of the House. We already have disciplinary procedures in existing codes and broad general advice in the code that began in 1972 and was retained in 1974 and reenacted in 1977. The importance of good advice and of a code is fully recognised. The Government are attempting today to introduce codes of what we believe is good practice into other important areas of industrial relations—picketing and the closed shop.
Views on both sides of the House are to some extent coloured by hon. Members' opinions on whether the contents of the codes constitute good industrial practice. That is understandable.
Mr. John Evans: Of course.
Mr. Lyell: I suspect that the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) does not object in principle to the introduction of a code if it contains what he believes it ought to contain.
Mr. Evans: Why does not the hon. Gentleman wait to hear what I have to say?
Mr. Lyell: It will be a great pleasure to hear the hon. Gentleman, as it was in Committee—frequently.
The right hon. Member for Down, South objects to the codes on principle. He has been joined in what has properly been described by my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) as an unholy alliance by those who do not object on principle but who object because to some extent what appears in the codes does not appear in the statutes as hard and fast legislation. Greatly as I respect the right hon. Gentleman's opinion on constitutional matters, I believe that the constitution has developed and that there is room for codes of practice. As I have indicated, it is well established that they perform a valuable role in disciplinary and unfair dismissal procedures.
The framework here is not all that different. In the end, both the code on picketing and the code on the closed shop deal with an individual's rights. Matters which affect individuals come to be reviewed by the courts or industrial tribunals in specific instances, and they are merely enjoined by the Act to take account of the codes. I do not know whether the word "guidance" has been used or whether it is considered an objectionable word. However, it should be made clear that the courts are not bound by the codes of practice, although they must take account of them. For example, if someone has been unfairly dismissed, the court has to decide whether the employer's conduct was fair and reasonable in the circumstances, judged according to equity and the substantial merits of the case. That applies in the case of both codes.
Paragraph 46 of the closed shop code is controversial. It says that there should be no more pre-entry closed shops because they are regarded by most members of the Conservative Party as objectionable. Many Labour Members will not share that view. However, even the TUC guidelines, to which I referred in interventions, regard pre-entry closed shops as different from post-entry closed shops.
But is it not objectionable that someone can lose his job if he refuses to go along with a union that wishes to institute a pre-entry closed shop and if he crosses a picket line set up in support of such a

725
shop? When such a case goes before an industrial tribunal, the view of the code on pre-entry closed shops is something that ought rightly to be taken into account. There is nothing constitutionally objectionable in that.
I come full circle to illustrate my first point again. We are all seeking good industrial practice, because we agree that that will enhance good industrial relations. I welcome the codes, partly because, although I regret that the TUC would not take part in their formulation—and I suspect that, in their hearts, many Labour Members regret that a way could not be found for the TUC to take part—I find large chunks of the February guidelines repeated in the codes.
It is impossible to believe that Labour Members will wish to repeal those chunks, and I suspect that they will also discover other large areas that it is a little easier for a Conservative Government to put into flexible codes than it might be for a Labour Government, with the traditions that back them—in the same way as Labour Governments can more easily do some of the things that we cannot do.
I welcome the fact that the Act made it possible for the codes to be issued. I see nothing constitutionally objectionable in the fact that when considering good practice on a controversial matter it should be left to the Secretary of State to propose and to Parliament to approve or disapprove and to show in the end what, in the opinion of the country, is good Industrial practice.
The pre-entry closed shop may be controversial, but I am sure that I am on solid ground in saying that the approach of the majority of the country is most fairly reflected by the opinion on the Government side of the House. If it becomes the turn of Labour Members to support their party in Government, I that they will continue to try to find good practice through such codes, which I give my wholehearted support.
8.38 pm
Mr. Stan Crowther: When I find myself on the same side as the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst), I wonder where I am going wrong. I was therefore pleased to find, when the hon. Gentleman explained his reasons for opposing the codes, that he had got the wrong reasons. I was much more impressed by the thoughtful and
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valuable contribution of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell).
Hon. Members who were present for the Second Reading of the Employment Bill will recall how strongly the Government assured us that it had nothing to do with the criminal law. The Secretary of State assured my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) that he had misunderstood the Bill in thinking that there were any criminal law implications in it. But, as the Bill progressed, particularly in Committee, the Government gradually began to admit that there were considerable criminal law implications, although they never quite admitted the full extent of those implications.
For example, the Under-Secretary of State said that the police and the magistrates would find the codes persuasive and influential. He said that the police
"are without any guidance whatsoever as regards numbers"—
that is, numbers on a picket line. I have never understood why they should have to be given guidance on a matter in which they are greatly experienced, the implementation of the criminal law.
The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to be upset, because he said:
"a discretion is cast upon the police on the spot to determine when the criminal law is being broken and if so, how it shall be enforced and whether it shall be enforced."
What is wrong with that? Do not the police have that discretion and duty in all circumstances where there is a possibility of the law's being broken? Why it should be necessary to give them mathematical guidance on this particular element of the law has never been clear to me, and it is obviously not very clear to the chief constables' association, because it visualises the difficulty that it will cause.
Throughout the debate the hon. and learned Gentleman used expressions of that kind, which made it clear that when the codes eventually appeared and had the approval of the House the police and the magistrates were bound to be influenced by them. He said:
"I hope and expect that a chief constable will take it "—
the code on picketing—
"into account. After all, it will be practical guidance on picketing which will have been

727
approved by Parliament, so I would expect him to take it into account and hope that he would take it into account. It would be desirable that he should."—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 12 February 1980; c. 302–303.]
The Under-Secretary used such expressions over and over again.
There can be no doubt that the administration of the criminal law, especially in relation to obstruction of the highway, is being decided tonight through this most peculiar method, which has been described as back-door legislation. That is precisely what it is. After all, who will be influenced by the codes? The trade union movement will not, for a start. The employers are not involved because their rights are clearly set out in the Act. There is no question of their right to take proceedings for an injunction or damages being in any way affected by the code.
The only people who are affected by the picketing code are the police. They are the ones who, according to the Under-Secretary, will be guided, influenced and persuaded to use the magic figure of six to decide whether they should prosecute people for causing an obstruction while those people are lawfully picketing.
I wonder how the code will work. The point that I am about to raise is one that I raised in Standing Committee, where I did not receive an answer. Let us assume that there are six pickets lawfully on duty, all of them outside their own place of work, operating strictly according to the terms of the Act. Then three more arrive. Being influenced and persuaded by the code, as the Under-Secretary described, the police will at that stage say to themselves "Now we must take action. An obstruction is being caused. There are now nine people there, and only six are permitted." But who are the ones who are causing the obstruction—the original six, who were there quite lawfully, causing no difficulty, or the three who turned up later? If the three who came later are to be prosecuted for obstruction, they can surely argue "Whatever obstruction we may be causing is only half as much obstruction as the original six were causing. How can you prosecute us and leave them there?"
I have never received an answer. Perhaps I shall not have an answer tonight.
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I do not think that there is an answer. The problem demonstrates the dilemma that any mathematical formula will create for the police and the courts. It is not a fanciful picture; that is the kind of thing that will happen.
I leave that matter to say a word about the closed shop code, which I find surprising. I should not be surprised, knowing the Government's attitude to the closed shop. However, the way in which they are going even further than the already very restrictive provisions in the Act is rather upsetting from a trade union point of view.
After all the debate about the 80 per cent., bad as that is, I thought at least that that was now settled and that if some trade unionists by some miracle were able to get an 80 per cent. positive vote, at least in those circumstances they could get a closed shop agreement, but apparently that is not so. The employer can please himself. The code says:
"this does not prevent an employer from deciding that there should be a higher percentage in favour before he agrees to such a radical change in his employees' terms".
That means an employer deciding—not negotiating, not talking to trade unionists, not meeting his employees and saying "Let us sort out the best thing to do", but simply deciding. The employer can say "Never mind what the Act says, or that 80 per cent. bit the parliamentarians have put into the Act. I have decided that you cannot have a closed shop agreement." That is hardly conducive to better industrial relations.
The trouble with both of these codes is that they will make an already difficult position even worse. It has been made very much worse by the Act. These two codes will do nothing to improve it.
I now comment on the closed shop in relation to the press, an industry in which I worked for many years. I was rather interested to see the way in which this code is written. I am not sure whether it means what the Secretary of State intends it to mean or whether it says what he intends it to say. The code says:
"Journalists, wherever employed, should enjoy the same rights as other employees to join trade unions and participate in their activities."
That is a very good thing. I wonder whether the Secretary of State really

729
means that, because "participate in their activities" must mean the right to negotiate a closed shop agreement and to implement such an agreement, because that is a right which, in certain circumstances at least, other trade unionists will have. Therefore, journalists should enjoy the same rights as other employees. I am very pleased to see that.
I do not think that that is entirely what the Secretary of State meant. I feel that he is trying to prevent journalists getting closed shops, but if they are to enjoy the same rights as other employees, to join trade unions and to participate in their activities, participation must involve the right to a closed shop agreement.
I shall not take up any more of the time of the House. I conclude by affirming what many of my right hon. and hon. Friends have said—that these codes will merely make industrial relations very much worse.
8.47 pm
Mr. Peter Lloyd: Like a number of other hon. Members, I regret that these codes have had to be prepared so rapidly over the summer months. Nevertheless, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on putting his short consultation period to very good use. He has taken on board some of the sensible and positive suggestions made by outside organisations and some of the ideas that came from the Select Committee. The codes before us this evening are very much improved on the original drafts that were circulated.
It is a pity that my right hon. Friend did not also have the benefit of a take-note debate in the House, because the House is now left with either accepting or rejecting these codes. It is thumbs up or thumbs down, and there is no opportunity for us to improve them this evening.
I understand the need for speed. The Act is already in force. The codes are designed to complete it. In the natural order of things, the provisions of the Act will come into play in the near future, and it is necessary that a summary of the law is available for when that situation arises. It is not that the law is particularly complex; it is not. It is very much simpler than many other Acts that I have seen passed through Parliament in the short
730
time that I have been here. However, the circumstances in which the law will be used are such that it is not experts or lawyers who will need to have the immediate primary understanding, but laymen—employers, employees and trade unionists. It is they who will have to make decisions and judgments quickly in emergencies.
For them, clear guidance as to what the law now is is vital. On the whole, these codes provide it particularly well, although I think that further thought and further revision might have enabled them to do it even better. I am conscious that, as the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Brown) said, there are one or two places where the codes are misleading—particularly paragraph 33 of the closed shop provisions.
The codes also give useful guidance on the way in which certain clear requirements of the law might be put into effect—for example, paragraph 34, which describes the procedures for a ballot on new closed shops. Whatever one's view of the 1980 Act and the section of it that provides for such ballots in particular circumstances, no one can reasonably object to the guidance that is given in the codes for carrying them out.
In contrast, advice such as that on the organisation of pickets—paragraph 34—is valuable and unobjectionable. I said "in contrast", because this paragraph is not a guide on how the law may be put into effect. However, it is advice that might help to ensure that the criminal law, easily fractured in this area, is properly observed. The root and branch condemnation of the principle of the codes that has come from a number of Labour Members is unjustified.
In February 1979, the Labour Government and the TUC issued a joint statement, attached to which were guides for industrial disputes. I shall not read out some of the items as they have been mentioned twice this evening and my right hon. Friend put some of them on the record in opening. They show that, although there may not be detailed agreement between the two sides, at least when the Labour Government were in office there was more common ground than the Opposition admit. No doubt that common ground is now disguised because Labour Members are in Opposition.

731
However, I have some profound reservations about the code. First, the tone is more partisan than even-handed advice to improve industrial relations ought to be if it is to be successful. More particularly, I believe that there are a number of items where the guidance goes much further than the law gives warrant.
I mention just two. Both have come up on a number of occasions in the debate, but they are sufficiently important to bear repetition. Paragraph 54 of the closed shop code of practice states:
"Disciplinary action should not be taken or threatened by a union against a member on the grounds of refusal to take part in industrial action called for by the union … (c) because the action had not been affirmed in a secret ballot".
That may be very good advice, and industrial relations might be much better
if it were adopted by the unions, but it is not drawn from the Act. It is not reasonable to deduce from the Act that, without a ballot, a union may not assert discipline over members who have ignored a strike call. When my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary winds up the debate he will no doubt say that that has already been dealt with by my right hon. Friend in his opening remarks, that this is a code, not the law, and that tribunals make their own decisions. But tribunals have to take the code into account if it is relevant. If so, that must narrow the options before tribunals and help them to crystallise their decisions. If not, what is the point of going to the trouble of legislating to make the code admissible?
The question of what constitutes unfair exclusion from a union is fundamental. It should be either dealt with fully by primary legislation or left to the tribunals to decide. In this latter case in the words with which my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary of State used to charm the Standing Committee on the Bill, the question should be decided by the tribunals according to equity and the substantial merits of the case. It should certainly not be left to the nudging ambiguity of a code of practice. If the codes have a privileged role in evidence given to them by statute, they should not seek to depart from or to extend the legislation that gives them life.
My second example is also taken from
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the closed shop code. It arises on page 11, on periodic reviews. Again, nothing in the law requires a periodic review. But there is a practical problem here as well as one of principle. Does the code and its privileged role in evidence mean that industrial tribunals can now say "There has been no review of this closed shop for six or seven years and, therefore, the agreement lapses"? I do not believe that a tribunal could come to that conclusion on the Act as it stands, but with the code of practice I am not so sure. I shall appreciate it if my hon. and learned Friend can advise hon. Members about that.
Even if the parties accept the advice in the code and conduct periodic reviews, there is a danger that it could harm and not help industrial relations and defeat the stated overall objectives of the code. The suggestion is that the review should be conducted on the same balloting grounds as those applied to brand new closed shops. That means an 80 per cent. majority. When a workplace is changing from an open shop to a closed shop, it is reasonable to say that this fundamental change should be approved only by an overwhelming majority. There is a good case to be made for that. It is quite another thing when the closed shop is the status quo and has been in being for years. A minority vote of 25 per cent. could overthrow it. Is the 75 per cent. to acquiesce in the removal of the closed shop? I do not think that that would be easily accepted. Alternatively, does it just mean that employers will lose their defence in claims of unfair dismissal over non-union membership? The danger is that where a closed shop already exists these guidelines will provoke management to co-operate with unions to ensure the necessary 80 per cent. majority at any review and to put off the review for as long as possible. It may be that that is a good reason for perceptive Opposition Members to support the codes, but it is a depressing prospect for Government supporters who believe that closed shops are wrong, who do not believe that they can be outlawed by statute but who do not want to see the law strengthen them in any way.
These codes have to be approved in toto. Although I believe that there is a great deal wrong with them, there is also a great deal of good, which will benefit industrial relations in general and the

733
effectiveness of the Act in particular. For that reason I shall vote for the two motions, but I ask my right hon. Friend to consider the criticisms that have come from both sides of the House and, after he has gained some experience of the codes in practice, to come back to the House at an early stage with revised versions that will meet those criticisms.
8.58 pm
Mr. Stuart Holland: Several hon. Members have hypothesised what may be the consequences of the adoption of this code of practice by a vote of the House tonight. For some of us, however, it has not been hypothesis. It has already been an experience during the period following the publication of the codes.
In the dispute at the Brixton unemployment benefit office, which had proceeded for a number of weeks before publication of the codes, there had been no problems about peaceful picketing and no limiting of pickets to six persons. Following the declaration of the Secretary of State that he was considering limiting pickets in this way and following the publication of the codes, the police limited the number of pickets in the dispute to six persons.
That gave rise to real confusion and disorder in the conduct of the dispute. As the Member of Parliament for one of the two men who had been dismissed in that case, I put down a question to the Home Secretary asking him whether any informal or formal guidelines had already gone to the police to limit the number of pickets to six. I was told that they had not, and I was advised to address my question to the local police, as would normally be the case.
At one morning demonstration, which coincided with the hearing of one of these cases and also coincided with the appearance of the Secretary of State before the Select Committee, which was widely misconstrued, I agreed to lead a delegation of fewer than a dozen people to ask the police on what basis they were limiting pickets to six persons. Several members of the delegation were arrested by the police on the ground that they were pickets. The police had taken the line that pickets should be limited to six. That shows that the confrontation implicit in a recommended limit of six is bound to occur in specific cases and that the
734
situation is aggravated rather than clarified by the guideline practice.
The Secretary of State took considerable umbrage over the fact that Members of Parliament were even involved in such disputes. I am not sure of the legal status of the so-called guidelines. I found myself the recipient, arising from what had been shown on television, of certain letters from him to myself giving me guidance on how to conduct myself in relation to any kind of picket. The Secretary of State said in a release to the press—I have no complaint about that—that he hoped I would not associate myself with
"attempts at intimidation through demonstration in the dispute."
One of the most ironic aspects of the matter, if Members of Parliament are not able to go to see picketing, is how we can have an informed debate in Parliament on the issues. How can any Member of Parliament assess directly how the codes of practice operate?
I indicated to the Secretary of State in a letter, although I should have preferred to do so in the House in a debate clarifying the issue before it happened, that the question of limiting the number of pickets to six was not crystal clear, as the right hon. Gentleman claims it to be, in paragraph 30 of the draft code of practice. What, for instance, is an entrance? In the Brixton unemployment benefit case, there is a frontage of 140 ft. The pavement is 11 ft. to 12 ft. wide and there are three gates. The police limited the number of pickets to six in all and two per gate after previously allowing a far larger number of pickets on that side of the street.
What does "six" mean? Does "entrance" mean a gate, or does it not mean a gate? What force do the guidelines have in relation to such a dispute? The code is not clear. It should be subject to amendment. Even if it is only to be a code of practice rather than law, it should be subject to the traditional processes of challenge and amendment by Members of this House. Otherwise, this lack of clarity will continue and will confuse the situation.
Section E of the draft code of practice on closed shop agreements and arrangements, this neatly produced little document clearly designed to slip into people's

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pockets, deals with the closed shop and freedom of the press. If there is to be anything concerning freedom of the press, I should like to see the Government publish a recommended code of practice for press and media coverage of trade union disputes. The Secretary of State declared on television during the summer—this is where most of the activity was seen to be taking place—that the British people were sick and tired of the scenes of violence on picket lines that they had seen. Well might they be sick and tired when the only event that goes across on television is the confrontation itself, when weeks of peaceful demonstration are not represented and when there is no right of representation or reply for those directly involved to charges and allegations concerning picketing disputes.
I am serious in suggesting that one of the best ways in which to remedy public misconception about the nature of picketing is to introduce a recommended code of practice for the press and media covering such disputes. The Independent Broadcasting Authority has a code in a general sense. It must seek to maintain a broad balance in its representation of views. No such broad balance exists when a television news programme shows tens or hundreds of people crossing a road in confrontation with the police before showing the incident that gives rise to that confrontation.
I checked the video tapes relating to the Brixton unemployment episode. The first item to be shown involved the confrontation and not the build-up of events that caused the confrontation. We should recommend that in television news items events should not be shown out of sequence. When that happens, members of the public can be widely misled.
People involved in picketing disputes also should be allowed the right of reply. The letter to me from the Secretary of State claiming that I was involved in "intimidation through demonstration" might not have been unrelated to a report in The Sunday Times, about two days before the letter, headlined:
"Battle over pickets was planned in advance."
When I first saw the 14-in. long report in The Sunday Times, I thought "That is interesting. I had something to do with
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the dispute but knew nothing of it being planned in advance." Further down the report I discovered that, lo and behold, the night before the incidents leading to the arrests I had allegedly been engaged in a meeting with the Socialist Workers Party to plan a confrontation with the police. That was, indeed, a surprise, since I had been at home with my wife and family having supper with friends.
The issue whether pickets are threatening is crucial to the whole public perception of the issues, and that is more important than my individual involvement in the case. I represented to The Sunday Times that its claim was totally without foundation. I said that I was surprised at the lapse in its standard of reporting. I recommended that in the next issue it should publish the reply that I wrote to the Secretary of State for Employment. It would have been, exactly the length of the initial report. Surprise, surprise! There was no readiness to publish the retraction. That conforms with an image which some of my hon. Friends have that the media is more interested in confrontation itself than in the issues, although the confrontation really comes from the Government in relation to trade unions.
It took the threat of legal action to persuade The Sunday Times to retract. The retraction was about the size of the headline on the original article. Instead of being placed in a prominent place, it was pushed alongside the classified advertisements. In German law, any misrepresentation of fact that can be proved can be corrected by the maligned person in the same layout and in the same space. That is extremely important in relation to picketing and industrial relations disputes. If we cannot debate the issues in Parliament, and if we cannot have open and balanced access to the press and the media, hon. Members should not be surprised that people take to the streets to demonstrate their protest at the failure of the system to represent their views fairly.
I turn to the question of co-called trade union blackmail of employers. I was impressed by the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton), who said that the vast majority of working people in Britain invest and spend their lives here

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rather than abroad. In the whole question of whether trade unions can blackmail or drag the economy to a halt and whether picketing and the closed shop have any relation to that, it is important to bear in mind what companies do—why they do it, where they do it, how they do it, when they do it and at what cost. All those decisions on the allocation of investment capital and jobs are taken actively by management and are reacted to by labour.
Capital disposal of resources in Britain and abroad is multinational in character, whereas labour is national or local in character. Trade unions at the present time have the right only to oppose what capital decides. We talk about two or three unions dominating a certain industry. We are also in a position where two or three companies dominate two-thirds or more of a given industry. They are multinational in character. Their blackmail is quite effective, because they say "Either you fall into line on wages or we unemploy you by taking our investment elsewhere."
If the Government are seriously interested in bettering labour relations, if they are really against the closed shop as such, why is there no code of practice for employers on opening the books about what is happening in business? If there is to be any change in the climate of labour relations in Britain, why is there resistance to allowing the labour force, in confidence, to see the plans? The magical figure of six appears in the picketing recommendations. Let us go for six factors for opening the books, rather than the closed books of which we hear so little.
We hear much about the closed shop, but we do not hear about the closed boardroom in British business, which is the reality that frequently gives rise to resistance from trade unions. Let us go for six factors in the negotiations with trade unions that will benefit industrial relations in Britain, I have in mind the nature and source of profits, future employment and redundancies, trade and transfer pricing by big business—whereby it frequently overstates an import price and understates a profit and thereby weakens the bargaining position of unions—and investment and capital flows.
We have the situation that the Government and some of the more expressive
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Members on the Conservative Benches—their expression based largely on volume rather than merit—have been talking about the way in which the trade unions, the closed shop and picketing need to be restricted, without recognising that there are double standards in the argument.
Parliament itself arose through the exercise of rights that were equivalent in practice to picketing. Without the process of actually pinning down the Crown and the barons, there would have been no Parliament in the first place. What would have happened at Runnymede in 1215 if the King had been able to say "I will talk with six of you, but the remainder of you stay the other side of the river"? In a physical sense they pinned down the King, because otherwise there would have been no real negotiations. What happened from Simon de Montfort in the thirteenth century through to 1688, even in the very terms that the monarchy described those closest to it? Let us take a few of the most highly favoured in the land, such as the Ladies of the Bedchamber, the Knight Commander of the Bath, the Knight of the Garter. We cannot get physically closer than that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. We are talking about codes of practice, not history.
Mr. Holland: With respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, my point is that if Conservative Members look at the best supportive analysis of why those jobs were held, they will find that former Members of this House and of the other House felt that they had to be physically near to the Crown to restrain it, lest the Crown restrained them. I suggest that there are double standards in the view that there can be picketing, provided that it is on the other side of the road and that it is ineffective. There is a contradiction here, even in the question as posed tonight.
Effective picketing and the right to protest are crucial elements in the effective exercise of rights within a democratic society. A democratic society is one in which people have the right both to agree and to disagree. If one restrains their ability to express that disagreement on the shop floor, it will lead to demonstrations on the streets.
9.15 pm
Mr. David Mellor: The principles covered in both these codes of practice are well trodden ground, because the views set forth in them have been articulated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State over a number of years. They were particularly forcefully articulated by my right hon. Friend and the rest of the Conservative Party during the election. There can be no doubt that it was the promise that the Government would do something about the closed shop and picketing that led to the massive victory that we achieved. There can be little doubt that although the substance of the proposals is controversial in this House, that is more a sign of the extent to which some hon. Members are out of touch with the public mood than any indication that the Government are not capable of responding to the public interest as they see it.
The vast majority of the public, whether they live in the North or South of England, Wales or Scotland, will find almost entire agreement with the principles that are set forth in these codes. That being the case, it is the Government's duty to bring them forward. It is their duty to make plain what the atmosphere in industrial relations that we seek to create should be, as well as to state what is proper conduct and what is not.
There are two ways in which that can be achieved. One is through legislation, but my right hon. Friend has properly rejected that course. If and in so far as it can be clearly established that industrial relations 18 months after this Government came to power are happier than the equivalent situation 18 months after the Government of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) came into office, I attribute quite a lot of that to the fact that we did not press forward with a full-scale Industrial Relations Act which covered all the ground that we would wish to cover.
We have heard a great deal tonight about the validity and constitutional propriety of these codes. The statutory basis for the codes is contained in section 3 of the 1980 Act. Section 3(1) is of particular importance as it gives the Secretary of State power to issue them, as is section 3(8), which gives these codes a certain status in courts of law. Section 3
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did not attract a great deal of attention when the Act proceeded through Parliament, for one clear and obvious reason—that it simply reiterated section 6 of the 1975 Act, which itself merely continued a statutory provision contained in the 1971 Act. I therefore have some difficulty in taking as seriously as do some hon. Members the constitutional propriety argument, having regard to the fact that, far from being a new creation, codes of practice and their alleged quasi-legal status have been with us for nearly 10 years. The only difference between these two codes and some of the earlier ones is that their contents do not find favour with certain hon. Members. It is not that they constitute a novel constitutional position.
The truth is that in so far as the codes have any legal force, they have exactly the same legal force as the code of practice under the 1971 Act, which, notwithstanding all the sound and fury of the Opposition during the lifetime of the Industrial Relations Act, was substantially continued by them under the 1975 Act.
The courts are required only to take account of the views contained in the codes where that is relevant to any issue in the case. It is suggested that that will somehow pose enormous difficulties for the courts. However, the only thing which can be cited in favour of that proposition is one observation of Lord Diplock. I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary will be able to quote chapter and verse when he replies to the debate, but the truth is that a long line of decided authorities in the industrial courts makes it plain that the courts are well aware that this is not law.
For example, they make it plain that there is no question of a dismissal being fair or unfair merely because an employer or employee follows the code or does not. The courts are fully entitled to look at a code. If they think that it is relevant to the issue before them, they must look at it, but they do not have to follow the principle set out therein unless, in exercising their proper judicial discretion, they independently reach the conclusion that it is appropriate to do so.
I am not convinced by the argument on the constitution. Neither am I convinced by some of the arguments about objections to the code on picketing. It is made abundantly clear in the document

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that picketing and the control of picketing remain the exclusive preserve of the police. That could not be more plainly stated. In so far as a guideline of six pickets is given, that is a commonsense guideline to anyone who may contemplate taking part in picketing. It is clear that criminal cases like the Piddington v Bates case established a tighter restriction, and in all the circumstances it is difficult to take the objections particularly seriously having regard to the closeness with which this code on picketing resembles some of the statements contained in the TUC code.
I hope that these codes will be given a fair wind. It is disappointing to see the petulant reaction of Mr. Len Murray and others to the codes, notwithstanding the common sense of their proposals. I hope that the codes will be given a fair wind and that they will create the right climate. However, the fact remains, and none of us must shirk it, that if they do not have the effect that we want we shall be driven to legislation, and those who oppose us unreasonably will have only themselves to blame for that.
Mr. Ray Powell: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have been here all day waiting to be called. Not one Welshman has participated in the debate. Further, it would have been a refreshing change for a Welshman to talk about the employed—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is an abuse of the procedure for raising points of order. Many hon. Members would like to have been called to speak in this important debate. I am sorry.
Mr. Powell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Am I given to understand that Front Bench Members will speak until 11.30 pm?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is a matter about which I would not know.
9.23 pm
Mr. Harold Walker: I shall not detain the House for long, because I sense some impatience by hon. Members to reach a conclusion on these matters. What happens after I sit down is not a matter for me.
I have been doing a quick thumbnail check on the conduct of the debate so far.
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Speakers have been called equally from both sides of the House, which does not necessarily mean—I intend no reflection on the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker—that Members who have been called from this side have been Labour Members. The score so far is 11 in favour of the Opposition view, shortly to be 12, four in favour of the Government, and three who are not sure. Therefore, we are winning the debate, even if we do not win the vote. But we shall vote.
The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) spoke about an improvement in industrial relations. He means that bad industrial relations are not receiving the same publicity as they received under the Labour Government. I am not criticising the media for that. I am saying that the media overplayed bad industrial relations previously. Last winter we lost immeasurably more days' production under this Government than we did during the so-called winter of discontent, and last year was an appalling year for industrial relations according to the Department of Employment figures.
The Secretary of State made a firm declaration, not for the first time, that his proposals did not extend the law, but as the debate continued it became increasingly apparent that he was becoming isolated in that view It was pointed out that many provisions in the codes are not included in the Employment Act and were not mentioned during the passage of the Bill but are presented in the same style and language as those matters that derive directly from the main statute.
The Secretary of State pointed out that he included a clarifying provision in the introduction to the codes. That does not alter the facts, but, if we were confused about what provisions were part of the statute and what were merely the opinions and prejudices of the Secretary of State and the Government, how much more difficult it will be for shop stewards and others who have not had the benefit of participating in our debates, who do not plough their way through Hansard and who cannot understand the structure of Bills but are expected to conduct our industrial relations and manage our affairs in the practical world in which they live.
The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) described the codes as a mixture of law, of the interpretation of law

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and of pious hope. I would say that the other ingredients missing from his description are arsenic and old lace and a bit of hemlock.
The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) described the present process as legislation by code, and barely a speaker has got by without referring to quasi-legislation. That is what we have before the House—neither code nor statute but some kind of weird hybrid falling between the two and yet overlapping both.
Let me make my own position clear. I have no objection to the use of codes of practice in industrial relations, nor could I, because I was one of those who helped to take the 1975 Bill through the House. I remember very well winding up the debate on the code of practice under the Industrial Relations Bill. But there is a fundamental difference between that occasion and the present.
Under the 1975 Act we delegated the responsibility for preparing the codes, subject to endorsement by Parliament, to the independent body, ACAS, the council of which is made up not of lawyers or Members of Parliament but of those who are engaged, day in and day out, in the practical realities of industrial relations.
Furthermore, we provided that the codes could be used—[Interruption.] I wish that some hon. Members would listen to these matters, because their ignorance is one of the contributory factors to the difficulties that the country endures. They come reeling into the House from the Smoking Room every time we have a major debate, sending whisky and brandy fumes across the Floor of the House, only in order to form a claque. They are the equivalent of the Spion Kop lads at Liverpool, the hooligans on the terraces—[Interruption.] I apologise to the Liverpool Members.
There is not only the fact that these codes are not made by an independent external body but are the product of a politically motivated, highly prejudiced Secretary of State, who has litle practical experience of industrial relations. I am not saying that in an accusing sense. Unlike the codes provided by the 1975 Act—the use of which was limited in judicial terms to the industrial tribunals and the Central Arbitration Committee,
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where those who had to make judgments were people involved in the practical day-to-day realities of industrial management and the management of industrial relations—here we are putting them into the courts. Once again, industrial relations are being taken back into the courts to become the territory of lawyers, with all the fallibility and weakness of lawyers in these matters.
I now turn to some of the matters which have been dealt with in the debate and to others which perhaps have not been mentioned. I have no wish to repeat what has been said today or on other occasions, and I shall confine myself to one or two points.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) referred to the kind of language that is used in the codes. I draw to the attention of the House the kind of thing to which we are entitled to object. In the introduction to the code of practice on picketing, we immediately see the prejudice and bias on which the codes are based. Paragraph 2 starts with the sentence:
"There is no legal 'right to picket' as such but peaceful picketing has long been recognised as being lawful."
The code does not say what it ought to say; it does not mention the fact that it is lawful. Instead of starting with the words "There is no legal 'right to picket'", why could not the code have said, in straightforward language, "It is lawful to picket"?
I do not want to go through the code and give example after example of the weighted and loaded language in which the codes are written. It seems that an arbitrary number has been plucked out of thin air for the number of pickets who may be on a line. I do not want to repeat the arguments that have been advanced earlier in the debate. However, the Secretary of State says that he is legislating only to enable employers to take civil action and that there is no extension of the criminal law. Is he expecting us to believe that the arbitrary six, a number that has been plucked out of thin air, will not be used before the courts? It is inevitable that the arbitrary six will seep into the lialogue of lawyers then they deal with the behaviour of pickets. It is inevitable that the police will observe and adhere to the arbitrary six. Increasingly it will be a maximum of six with

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a preference for fewer than six, as the code suggests.
The code is drafted in terms that suggest that industrial disputes involving picketing are limited to trade unions and their members or to official disputes. If the right hon. Gentleman reads the relevant passages about the organisation of pickets, for example, he will take the point that I am seeking to make. The code is drafted in terms that seem to assume that, even in unofficial disputes, responsibility for organising pickets should fall on the trade union organisation.
The codes are entirely one-sided because they assume that the handling of picketing during industrial disputes is the responsibility and concern of only one party to the dispute. It takes two to make a dispute. That is a point that was well made by the British Institute of Management. I understand that in the advice that it has submitted to the Department of the Environment it suggests that a new clause should be introduced to describe the duties of management. It states:
"This would contribute to the balance of the document, besides being helpful in setting down best practice' for managers. BIM did not attempt to draft such a clause, but a majority of the respondents thought that it should cover such responsibilities as the duty of managers at all times to be aware of any fluctuations in the situation, to maintain an amicable communication with the pickets, foster and maintain peaceful relations with all employees, and avoid any action which could be interpreted as provocative."
There is a clear recognition that employers have a role, responsibility and duties. It is regrettable that the Secretary of State did not heed the advice that came not from the TUC or the workers' side of industry but from those who as much as any are at the sharp end of the matters that we are discussing.
The weakness of our procedures is that we are forced either to take the codes or to leave them. We cannot amend them. At this stage we cannot persuade the right hon. Gentleman that he should take the advice of his hon. Friends and my hon. Friends on the management of British industry. The codes will continue to be silent about the responsibilities of management.
Those who were involved in considering the Employment Bill in Committee and
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on the Floor of the House will recall that there was much debate about the joining of others for the purpose of the award of compensation. It was said that a person who had been unfairly dismissed because of his refusal to join a union, or because of his expulsion from a union for refusing to engage in industrial action, could claim before a tribunal that he had been unfairly dismissed and the employer who had dismissed him, if he had done so as a consequence of pressure brought by another person, could join the other person for the purpose of the award of compensation. The issue before the House on more than one occasion was whether the Bill should limit the joinder to the person put under pressure or whether the union should be included and similarly exposed to being joined.
The Secretary of State and the Minister repeatedly resisted attempts by their hon. Friends to make the unions subject to being joined. Paragraph 11 states that not only the person but the union can be joined. I cannot find any provision for that in sections 10 or 11 of the Act. I am sure that the Minister knows them by heart. Perhaps he will tell us why that measure has been slipped in by the back door. The House specifically rejected its inclusion on the urging and prompting of the Secretary of State.
The code of practice on closed shop agreements is shrouded in doubt and uncertainty. It gives rise to many problems. Not only does it raise the question of where the law should give way to guidance and advice it will also give rise to many problems as regards its practical implementation. For example, who should be responsible for the administration of the ballots? Who should be responsible for their cost? There is a problem about the framing of the question on which the ballot is held. The Secretary of State insists that in a ballot for a new closed shop the question must be simple and straightforward. There must not be more than one question.
If the Transport and General Workers Union were to put in a bid to have a closed shop agreement in an establishment that employed 100 people, the Secretary of State would like the following simple question to be asked: "Do you wish the TGWU to be able to operate a closed shop? Answer 'Yes' or 'No'." The result of the ballot might be 70 per

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cent. in favour and 30 per cent. against. That would be 10 per cent. below the minimum required. It could mean that 30 per cent. were non-union people and that they did not wish to join a union. The reality might be that 30 per cent. were keener union members who belonged to the General and Municipal Workers Union. Deprived of the opportunity to express their wishes, they might be trying to say that they want a closed shop, but that they want it to be a GMWU closed shop. The provision will give rise to many misunderstandings.
I shall resist the strong temptation to dwell on some of the difficulties that will inevitably result. However, the right hon. Member for Down, South spoke about the wording of paragraph 46. His point illustrates something about which hon. Members and those who will have to operate the codes are concerned. Paragraph 46 states:
"Closed shop agreements which require people to belong to a trade union before they can be employed (the pre-entry closed shop) may particuarly infringe the freedom of individuals to work. No new agreements of this type should be contemplated".
The right hon. Member for Down, South picked up the word "contemplated". However, the fundamental point concerns from where the Secretary of State derives his authority for such a dogmatic and categorical assertion. It will probably be read by many as a declaration that there should be no new pre-entry closed shops. The Secretary of State has no authority for that.
I wish to make one further point. You will notice, Mr. Speaker, that I am casting aside many of the pieces of paper before me—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that hon. Members are pleased.
Tucked at the back of the code on the closed shop are extraordinary provisions dealing with the freedom of the press. I make these remarks with some feeling. Perhaps more than anyone in the House, I was involved in an enormous amount of work to try to draw up the press charter that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) made provision for in an earlier statute. The code states that any requirement on journalists to join a union creates the possibility of a conflict with press freedom. On what evidence has the Secretary of State reached that
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conclusion? Why does he single out journalists from everyone else in the land and say that in their case there are special and exceptional reasons why they should not organise as effectively as they can to try to improve their terms and conditions of employment? It is an argument unsupported by reason or experience. It is inconsistent with what was said to me by most people I consulted when we were last in Government.
There is the question of the exclusion of editors from the obligation to join a closed shop. Those who have to apple the code are entitled to know what that means. What is meant by "editor"? Is it the person who has the overall responsibility for the content of the newspaper? Does the term include the sports editor, the crime editor, the night editor, the sub-editor and the bloke who looks after the shop while the editor goes on holiday?
There is a reference in paragraph 59 to "generally accepted professional standards". Accepted by whom? Does it mean the code of the National Union of Journalists? To the best of my knowledge, that is the only existing set of professional standards available for guidance. If that is what the right hon. Gentleman means, he should put it in the code so that everybody knows what he is talking about, instead of relying on a vague and ill-thought-out concept of "accepted professional standards" There are no such alternative standards.
I have already made my view of codes of practice clear to the House. I believe that they can have a role, although I do not believe that these codes will improve industrial relations. On the contrary, they will contribute towards bad industrial relations. When we developed the concept of codes of practice, I hoped that one of the benefits would be increasingly to take industrial relations out of the hands of the lawyers and out of the courts. These codes will have the opposite effect. They will provide fertile ground for barrack-room lawyers, incentives for every litigious-minded employer and a lucrative income for the legal profession as a whole. The codes will take industrial relations back into the courts. The experience of the years immediately following the Industrial Relations Act 1971 may well be recreated, not merely

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by the codes but by the Government's step-by-step approach of which they form a part. It is for those reasons that we shall vote against the codes in the Lobby tonight.
9.43 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Patrick Mayhew): We have had an exceptionally wide-ranging and serious debate, which the gravity and importance of the subject warrant. I hope to reply to as many of the points that have been raised as I can.
It will be helpful, first, to try to identify the common ground that has emerged. It is common ground that the subject of industrial relations is of central importance to this country and to everything that we are trying to achieve, that the scope for improvement in our industrial relations is too wide and that codes of practice, statutorily based, have an important part to play. They can help. They can set standards that reflect good industrial relations practice.
In the earlier parts of his speech, the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) took exception to a passage in the introduction to the code of practice on picketing. It states that the code seeks to set standards that supplement the standards set in the Act. I find nothing wrong in that. It must surely be a mistake, for the reasons that the right hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) outlined, to seek to put into statute, with all the necessary rigidity that goes wih statutory language, every provision that one believes might be of help in securing good industrial relations.
The Employment Act establishes standards, just as the Employment Protection Act establishes standards, but I do not believe that there is anything impractical or unconstitutional in seeking, by codes of practice, which are mere guidance, to supplement, by which I mean to explain and to illustrate, standards set by statute. That is exactly what our codes of practice seek to do.
Mr. Gorst: It has been alleged that the codes will have either a quasi or fully statutory effect. The Government have denied that, but will my hon. and learned Friend undertake that if the allegation is proved correct in the coming months
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the parts that are quasi or fully statutory will be either removed from the codes or enshrined in legislaton, but not left as they are?
Mr. Mayhew: Certainly not. There is no secret about the status of the codes. They have the same status as the codes introduced by ACAS under the 1975 Act and the code of practice introduced under the 1971 Act. They are codes representing such guidance as the Secretary of State thinks fit to promote
"the improvement of industrial relations".
That is the wording of the empowering section of the Employment Act. Courts, tribunals and the Central Arbitration Committee are required in such cases to which they consider the provisions relevant to take the codes into consideration. It does not matter whether the status is called quasi judicial, quasi legislative or quasi anything else. What matters is that the codes represent the guidance that my right hon. Friend thinks fit to offer for the promotion of better industrial relations.
The argument about unconstitutionality would have been better made when the empowering section of the Employment Act was being discussed. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North (Mr. Gorst) said that he did not vote against that provision. There can be nothing unconstitutional in codes of practice being issued by the Secretary of State and put to Parliament for approval when they fall four square within the power conferred on my right hon. Friend by section 3.
Most of us accept that in such matters mandatory rules in the concrete form of legislation are often too rigid and that guidance is often better than command. It would be surprising if that were otherwise, because such codes are no strangers to our scene. The right hon. Member for Doncaster conceded that he was responsible for the three codes issued by ACAS.
Mr. Harold Walker: No; ACAS was responsible.
Mr. Mayhew: Well, ACAS has the responsibility of issuing them, but it is for the Secretary of State to give them his approval and bring them into effect.
Mr. Budgen: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that there may be a distinction on the constitutional point

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between those parts of the codes that either set out the existing law or give an interpretation of it and those parts that set out to extend the existing law and to restrict what are now the rights of those who have a closed shop or who picket?
Mr. Mayhew: If there were material for such a distinction to exist in either code of practice, I should, of course, acknowledge it. Where I part company from my hon. Friend is where he implies that any part of the codes extends the law. There is no part that extends the law, nor could there be. This is very important.
Paragraph 4 of the introduction to each code explains what the various sections do. Paragraph 4 of the code on picketing says:
"Sections B and C outline the provisions of the civil and criminal law"
Section D, which deals with the role of the police, again is explanation of the existing law. The code, in sections E, F and G, gives
"guidance on good practice in the conduct of picketing."
It is of prime importance to note that each code represents simply the Secretary of State's guidance on what he believes to be necessary and desirable for the promotion of good industrial relations.
Of course, it is true that under the Act the codes must be taken into account where they are relevant to any question that falls to be determined by a tribunal or by a court. If there is anything unconstitutional about that, it was unconstitutional in 1977 when the ACAS codes were introduced under the aegis of the 1975 Act; it was unconstitutional when the 1972 code was introduced under the 1971 Act.
Some right hon. and hon. Members have suggested that somehow the constitutional point is made right by the fact that ACAS produced the codes in 1977. But the 1971 Act was introduced by the Secretary of State of the day. I cannot see that it makes any difference to the constitutional point whether ACAS or the Secretary of State produced the codes.
The Secretary of State produced the code in 1972. It has 133 paragraphs, of which 123 remain in force. That is because the Labour Government, of which
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the right hon. Gentleman was a distinguished member in dealing with this part of the law, considered not only that that code was not unconstitutional but that it offered desirable, sensible and practical advice.
Mr. Leighton rose—
Mr. Mayhew: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, because I had the misfortune to miss hearing his speech.
Mr. Leighton: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way. Does not he agree that there is an important distinction between the ACAS code, which was admissible only before tribunals, and his own codes of practice? In the introduction to both, we read that they are
"to be admissible in evidence and taken into account in proceedings before any court".
That is the major difference.
Mr. Mayhew: It is not a major difference. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] It has, and can have, no bearing on constitutionality. The codes produced by ACAS were not the subject of material that would fall to be determined in any circumstances by a court, but the picketing code may in certain circumstances—I think rare—be considered by a court to be relevant. Therefore, we thought it right to extend to courts exactly the same provision as has applied to the ACAS codes and to the 1971 code.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, North considered that the codes were wrong in principle because of the constitutionality point. I have dealt with that, but I wish to deal in more detail with the speech of the right hon. Member for Down, South. He considered that it was really legislating to say that there should be a maximum number of six and that this was legislating by the back door. It cannot be legislation where the code itself expressly denies that there is any legislative effect. I look at paragraph 5 of the introduction:
"The Code itself imposes no legal obligations and failure to observe it does not by itself render anyone liable to proceedings. But Section 3(8) of the Employment Act 1980 provides that any provisions of the Code are to be admissible in evidence and taken into account in proceedings".

753
When we come to the passage dealing with the role of the police and the numbers of pickets, under section D we read:
"nor does this Code affect in any way the discretion of the police to limit the number of people on a particular picket line. It is for the police to decide, taking into account all the circumstances, whether the number of pickets at any particular place is likely to lead to a breach of the peace."
The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding), who is the Chairman of the Select Committee of this House dealing with employment matters, gave, I thought, a misleading impression—no doubt it was done inadvertently—of the reaction that the police have had to this code. The chief constables are now happy with the way in which this matter is dealt with. They are content that the discretion of the police is expressed to be unaffected in any way. We did that at their request. They are content and, indeed, happy that there should be reference to six, expressed as it is in section E of the code as being necessary as a limit to avoid the "fear and resentment" amongst those seeking to cross a picket line which is occasioned by large numbers. Every one of the three police organisations, be it federation, association or representative body, has stated publicly that it is happy with the code in this respect.
On the question of a maximum of six, I noticed with particular interest that the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) said that he considered that the maximum of six was no more than the Secretary of State's opinion. He said that it was plucked out of the air and that a maximum of six on any picket line was an absurdity.
I always thought that the right hon. Gentleman had close associations with the National Union of Mineworkers and that, coming from a constituency such as his, he knew what the miners and his constituents were thinking. I ask him to take his mind back to 1974, when the House was about to deal with the first of the Trade Union and Labour Relations
Acts. At that time the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot), who is now the Leader of the Opposition, indicated that he would put into the Official Report the text of a consultative document on the Government's Trade Union and Labour Relations Act. That was what he did. It appears in Hansard for 22 March 1974. It has some bearing upon what the right hon. Member for Chesterfield said. It says:
"The fact that very few incidents occurred in the 1974 strike"—
that was the miners' strike—
"was largely due to the fact that the NUM laid down strict rules ensuring that the number of pickets in any local situation was not to exceed six, that the six were to be nominated by a branch or lodge official, and identified by an armband or other badge, and, further, that all the six were to be members of the lodge or branch concerned. Thus, when potentially disruptive elements from outside the industry offered their services, they were rejected and dismissed from the scene."—[Official Report, 22 March 1974; Vol. 870, c. 1490–91.]
That was what the right hon. Gentleman's coalmining constituents thought it right to do in 1974, and that, in the footnote in the Official Report, was the cause of very few incidents taking place in the 1974 strike.
Many points have been raised and I have not the time to deal with all or even many of them. However, I say this. My hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor) had it right when he said that Opposition Members were out of touch if they felt that there was no demand in the country for control over picketing by guidance and for guidance over the closed shop. I believe that both of these matters call for guidance. My right hon. Friend has given it. He has consulted upon these matters to a greater extent than any similar codes have been consulted upon, and I commend them to the House.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 295, Noes 231.

Division No. 499]

AYES

[10.00 p.m.

Adley, Robert

Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Aitken, Jonathan

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Alison, Michael

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Biggs-Davison, John

Alton, David

Beith, A. J.

Blackburn, John

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Bell, Sir Ronald

Body, Richard

Ancram, Michael

Bendall, Vivian

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Arnold, Tom

Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon)

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)

Atkins, Robert (Preston North)

Best, Keith

Boyson, Dr Rhodes

Bright, Graham

Hayhoe, Barney

Page, Rt Hon Sir Graham (Crosby)

Brittan, Leon

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire)

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Heddle, John

Parris, Matthew

Brooke, Hon Peter

Henderson, Barry

Patten, Christopher (Bath)

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Patten, John (Oxford)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Hicks, Robert

Pattie, Geoffrey

Bruce-Gardyne, John

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Pawsey, James

Bryan, Sir Paul

Hill, James

Penhaligon, David

Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)

Percival, Sir Ian

Bulmer, Esmond

Holland, Philip (Carlton)

Peyton, Rt Hon John

Burden, Sir Frederick

Hooson, Tom

Pink, R. Bonner

Butcher, John

Hordern, Peter

Porter, Barry

Butler, Hon Adam

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Cadbury, Jocelyn

Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)

Price, Sir David (Easteigh)

Carlisle, John (Luton West)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Prior, Rt Hon James

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Hunt, David (Wirral)

Proctor, K. Harvey

Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Raison, Timothy

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Hurd, Hon Douglas

Rathbone, Tim

Chapman, Sydney

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Rees, peter (Dover and Deal)

Churchill, W. S.

Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

Jessel, Toby

Renton, Tim

Clark, Sir William (Croydon South)

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Rhodes James, Robert

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Clegg, Sir Walter

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Ridley, Hon Nicholas

Cockeram, Eric

Kershaw, Anthony

Ridsdale, Julian

Colvin, Michael

Kilfedder, James A.

Rifkind, Malcolm

Cope, John

Kimball, Marcus

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

Corrie, John

King, Rt Hon Tom

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Costain, Sir Albert

Knight, Mrs Jill

Rossi, Hugh

Cranborne, Viscount

Knox, David

Rost, Peter

Critchley, Julian

Lamont, Norman

Royle, Sir Anthony

Crouch, David

Lang, Ian

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

Langford-Holt, Sir John

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman

Dickens, Geoffrey

Latham, Michael

Scott, Nicholas

Dorrell, Stephen

Lawrence, Ivan

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Lawson, Nigel

Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

Dover, Denshore

Lee, John

Shelton, William (Streatham)

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)

Durant, Tony

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Shersby, Michael

Dykes, Hugh

Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)

Silvester, Fred

Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Sims, Roger

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)

Loveridge, John

Skeet, T. H. H.

Eggar, Tim

Lyell, Nicholas

Speed, Keith

Elliott, Sir William

McCrindle, Robert

Spence, John

Emery, Peter

Macfarlane, Neil

Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)

Eyre, Reginald

MacGregor, John

Sproat, Iain

Fairbairn, Nicholas

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Squire, Robin

Fairgrieve, Russell

McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)

Stainton, Keith

Faith, Mrs Sheila

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

Stanbrook, Ivor

Farr, John

McQuarrie, Albert

Steel, Rt Hon David

Fell, Anthony

Madel, David

Steen, Anthony

Finsberg, Geoffrey

Major, John

Stevens, Martin

Fisher, Sir Nigel

Marland, Paul

Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Marlow, Tony

Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)

Fookes, Miss Janet

Marten, Neil (Banbury)

Stokes, John

Forman, Nigel

Mates, Michael

Stradling Thomas, J.

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Mather, Carol

Tapsell, Peter

Fox, Marcus

Maude, Rt Hon Angus

Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)

Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

Mawby, Ray

Taylor, Teddy (Southend East)

Fry, Peter

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Temple-Morris, Peter

Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

Mayhew, Patrick

Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Mellor, David

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Thompson, Donald

Glyn, Dr Alan

Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)

Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

Goodlad, Alastair

Mills, Iain (Meriden)

Thornton, Malcolm

Gow, Ian

Mills, Peter (West Devon)

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Gower, Sir Raymond

Miscampbell, Norman

Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)

Gray, Hamish

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Trippler, David

Greenway, Harry

Moate, Roger

Trotter, Neville

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds)

Monro, Hector

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Moore, John

Vaughan, Dr Gerard

Grimond, Rt Hon J.

Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)

Viggers, Peter

Grist, Ian

Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)

Waddington, David

Grylis, Michael

Murphy, Christopher

Wakeham, John

Gummer, John Selwyn

Myles, David

Waldegrave, Hon William

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll)

Neale, Gerrard

Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Needham, Richard

Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)

Hampson, Dr Keith

Nelson, Anthony

Wall, Patrick

Hannam, John

Neubert, Michael

Waller, Gary

Heselhurst, Alan

Newton, Tony

Walters, Dennis

Hastings, Stephen

Nott, Rt Hon John

Ward, John

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Onslow, Cranley

Warren, Kenneth

Hawkins, Paul

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally

Watson, John

Hawksley, Warren

Page, John (Harrow West)

756

757

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Wickendon, Keith

Younger Rt Hon George

Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)

Wiggin, Jerry

Wheeler, John

Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

Wolfson, Mark

Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

Whitney, Raymond

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Mr. Anthony Berry.

NOES

Abse, Leo

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

Adams, Allen

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Newens, Stanley

Allaun, Frank

Ginsburg, David

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Anderson, Donald

Golding, John

Ogden, Eric

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest

Gorst, John

O'Halloran, Michael

Ashton, Joe

Gourlay, Harry

O'Neill, Martin

Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

Graham, Ted

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Palmer, Arthur

Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

Park, George

Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

Hardy, Peter

Parker, John

Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Parry, Robert

Bidwell, Sydney

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Pavitt, Laurie

Booth, Rt Hon Albert

Haynes, Frank

Pendry, Tom

Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough)

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)

Bradford, Rev. R.

Heffer, Eric S.

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Bradley, Tom

Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)

Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)

Race, Reg

Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

Home Robertson, John

Radice, Giles

Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

Homewood, William

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith)

Hooley, Frank

Richardson, Jo

Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S)

Horam, John

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Buchan, Norman

Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)

Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

Huckfield, Les

Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

Hudson Davies, Ednyfed

Robertson, George

Campbell, Ian

Hughes, Mark (Durham)

Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Rodgers, Rt Hon William

Canavan, Dennis

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)

Rooker, J. W.

Cant, R. B.

Janner, Hon Greville

Roper, John

Carmichael, Neil

Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

Carter-Jones, Lewis

John, Brynmor

Ross, Wm, (Londonderry)

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Johnson, James (Hull West)

Ryman, John

Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

Johnson, Walter (Derby South)

Sever, John

Cohen, Stanley

Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)

Sheerman, Barry

Coleman, Donald

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Short, Mrs Renée

Conlan, Bernard

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

Cook, Robin F.

Kerr, Russell

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

Cowans, Harry

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Silverman, Julius

Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)

Lamble, David

Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)

Crowther, J. S.

Lamborn, Harry

Snape, Peter

Cryer, Bob

Leadbitter, Ted

Soley, Clive

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Leighton, Ronald

Spearing, Nigel

Cunningham, George (Islington S)

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Spriggs, Leslie

Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)

Litherland, Robert

Stallard, A. W.

Dalyell, Tam

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Stoddart, David

Davidson, Arthur

Lyon, Alexander (York)

Stott, Roger

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)

Strang, Gavin

Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central)

Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

Straw, Jack

Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)

McCartney, Hugh

Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

Dempsey, James

McDonald, Dr Oonagh

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)

Dewar, Donald

McElhone, Frank

Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

Dixon, Donald

McGuire, Michael (Ince)

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Dobson, Frank

McKelvey, William

Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)

Dormand, Jack

MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

Douglas, Dick

Maclennan, Robert

Tilley, John

Dubs, Alfred

McNally, Thomas

Torney, Tom

Duffy, A. E. P.

McNamara, Kevin

Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

McTaggart, Robert

Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

McWilliam, John

Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)

Eadie, Alex

Magee, Bryan

Watkins, David

Eastham, Ken

Marks, Kenneth

Weetch, Ken

Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)

Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)

Wellbeloved, James

Ennals, Rt Hon David

Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

Welsh, Michael

Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)

White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)

Evans, John (Newton)

Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)

White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

Ewing, Harry

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Whitehead, Phillip

Field, Frank

Maxton, John

Whitlock, William

Fitch, Alan

Maynard, Miss Joan

Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

Flannery, Martin

Meacher, Michael

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)

Ford, Ben

Mitchell, R. C. (Solon, Itchen)

Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

Forrester, John

Molyneaux, James

Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

Foster, Derek

Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshaw)

Winnick, David

Foulkes, George

Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw)

Woodall, Alec

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)

Woolmer, Kenneth

758

759

Wrigglesworth, Ian

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Joseph Dean and

Mr. George Morton.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Code of Practice on Picketing, which was laid before this House on 5 November, be approved.

Motion made, and Question put,

That the draft Code of Practice on Closed Shop Agreements and Arrangements, which was laid before this House on 5th November, be approved.—[Mr. Prior.]

The House divided: Ayes 295, Noes 232.

Division No. 500]

AYES

[10.15 pm

Adley, Robert

Costain, Sir Albert

Hayhoe, Barney

Aitken, Jonathan

Cranborne, Viscount

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Alison, Michael

Critchley, Julian

Heddle, John

Alton, David

Crouch, David

Henderson, Barry

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Ancram, Michael

Dickens, Geoffrey

Hicks, Robert

Arnold, Tom

Dorrell, Stephen

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Hill, James

Atkins, Robert (Preston North)

Dover, Denshore

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)

Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Holland, Philip (Carlton)

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

Hooson, Tom

Banks, Robert

Durant, Tony

Hordern, Peter

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Dykes, Hugh

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Beith, A. J.

Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)

Bell, Sir Ronald

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)

Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

Bendall, Vivian

Egger, Tim

Hunt, David (Wirral)

Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon)

Elliott, Sir William

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

Emery, Peter

Hurd, Hon Douglas

Best, Keith

Eyre, Reginald

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Fairgrieve, Russell

Jessel, Toby

Biggs-Davison, John

Faith, Mrs Shella

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Blackburn, John

Farr, John

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Body, Richard

Fell, Anthony

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Finsberg, Geoffrey

Kershaw, Anthony

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Fisher, Sir Nigel

Kilfedder, James A.

Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Kimball, Marcus

Boyson, Dr Rhodes

Fookes, Miss Janet

King, Rt Hon Tom

Braine, Sir Bernard

Forman, Nigel

Knight, Mrs Jill

Bright, Graham

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Knox, David

Brinton, Tim

Fox, Marcus

Lamont, Norman

Brittan, Leon

Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

Lang, Ian

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Brooke, Hon Peter

Fry, Peter

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)

Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

Latham, Michael

Browne, John (Winchester)

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Lawrence, Ivan

Bruce-Gardyne, John

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Lawson, Nigel

Bryan, Sir Paul

Glyn, Dr Alan

Lee, John

Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick

Goodlad, Alastair

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Bulmer, Esmond

Gow, Ian

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Burden, Sir Frederick

Gower, Sir Raymond

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Butcher, John

Gray, Hamish

Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)

Butler, Hon Adam

Greenway, Harry

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Cadbury, Jocelyn

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds)

Loveridge, John

Carlisle, John (Luton West)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Lyell, Nicholas

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Grimond, Rt Hon J.

McCrindle, Robert

Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

Grist, Ian

Macfarlane, Neil

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Grylls, Michael

MacGregor, John

Chapman, Sydney

Gummer, John Selwyn

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Churchill, W. S.

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm & Ew'll)

McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)

Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

Clark, Sir William (Croydon South)

Hampson, Dr Keith

McQuarrie, Albert

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Hannam, John

Madel, David

Clegg, Sir Walter

Haselhurst, Alan

Major, John

Cockeram, Eric

Hastings, Stephen

Marland, Paul

Colvin, Michael

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Marlow, Tony

Cope, John

Hawkins, Paul

Marten, Neil (Banbury)

Corrie, John

Hawksley, Warren

Mates, Michael

760

761

Mather, Carol

Proctor, K. Harvey

Tapsell, Peter

Maude, Rt Hon Angus

Raison, Timothy

Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)

Mawby, Ray

Rathbone, Tim

Taylor, Teddy (Southend East)

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

Temple-Morris, Peter

Mayhew, Patrick

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret

Mellor, David

Renton, Tim

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Rhodes James, Robert

Thompson, Donald

Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

Mills, Iain (Meriden)

Ridley, Hon Nicholas

Thornton, Malcolm

Mills, Peter (West Devon)

Ridsdale, Julian

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Miscampbell, Norman

Rifkind, Malcolm

Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

Trippler, David

Moate, Roger

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Trotter, Neville

Monro, Hector

Rossl, Hugh

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Moore, John

Rost, Peter

Vaughan, Dr Gerard

Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)

Royle, Sir Anthony

Viggers, Peter

Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Waddington, David

Murphy, Christopher

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman

Wakeham, John

Myles, David

Scott, Nicholas

Waldegrave, Hon William

Neale, Gerrard

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)

Needham, Richard

Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)

Nelson, Anthony

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Wall, Patrick

Neubert, Michael

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Waller, Gary

Newton, Tony

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)

Walters, Dennis

Nott, Rt Hon John

Shersby, Michael

Ward, John

Onslow, Cranley

Silvester, Fred

Warren, Kenneth

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally

Sims, Roger

Watson, John

Page, John (Harrow West)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Page, Rt Hon Sir Graham (Crosby)

Speed, Keith

Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)

Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire)

Spence, John

Wheeler, John

Parris, Matthew

Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)

Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

Patten, Christopher (Bath)

Sproat, Iain

Whitney, Raymond

Patten, John (Oxford)

Squire, Robin

Wickendon, Keith

Pattie, Geoffrey

Stainton, Keith

Wiggin, Jerry

Pawsey, James

Stanbrook, Ivor

Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)

Penhaligon, David

Steel, Rt Hon David

Wolfson, Mark

Percival, Sir Ian

Steen, Anthony

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Peyton, Rt Hon John

Stevens, Martin

Younger, Rt Hon George

Pink, R. Bonner

Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

Porter, Barry

Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Stokes, John

Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

Price, Sir David (Easteigh)

Stradling Thomas, J.

Mr. Anthony Berry.

Prior, Rt Hon James

NOES

Abse, Leo

Crowther, J. S.

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Adams, Allen

Cryer, Bob

Ginsburg, David

Allaun, Frank

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Golding, John

Anderson, Donald

Cunningham, George (Islington S)

Gorst, John

Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest

Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)

Gourlay, Harry

Ashton, Joe

Dalyell, Tam

Graham, Ted

Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

Davidson, Arthur

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central)

Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford)

Hardy, Peter

Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

Dempsey, James

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

Dewar, Donald

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Bidwell, Sydney

Dixon, Donald

Haynes, Frank

Booth, Rt Hon Albert

Dobson, Frank

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough)

Dormand, Jack

Heffer, Eric S.

Bradford, Rev. R.

Douglas, Dick

Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)

Bradley, Tom

Dubs, Alfred

Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhail)

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Duffy, A. E. P.

Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

Home Robertson, John

Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Homewood, William

Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S)

Eadie, Alex

Hooley, Frank

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith)

Eastham, Ken

Horam, John

Buchan, Norman

Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire)

Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

Huckfield, Les

Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

Ennals, Rt Hon David

Hudson Davies, Ednyfed

Campbell, Ian

Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

Hughes, Mark (Durham)

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Evans, John (Newton)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)

Canavan, Dennis

Ewing, Harry

Janner, Hon Greville

Cant, R. B.

Field, Frank

Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

Carmichael, Neil

Fitch, Alan

John, Brynmor

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Flannery, Martin

Johnson, James (Hull West)

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Johnson, Walter (Derby South)

Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)

Cohen, Stanley

Ford, Ben

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Forrester, John

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Conlan, Bernard

Foster, Derek

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Cook, Robin F.

Foulkes, George

Kerr, Russell

Cowans, Harry

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Lamble, David

762

763

Lamborn, Harry

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Spearing, Nigel

Leadbitter, Ted

Ogden, Eric

Spriggs, Leslie

Leighton, Ronald

O'Halloran, Michael

Stallard, A. W.

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

O'Neill, Martin

Stoddart, David

Litherland, Robert

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Stott, Roger

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Strang, Gavin

Lyon, Alexander (York)

Palmer, Arthur

Straw, Jack

Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)

Park, George

Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

Parker, John

Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

McCartney, Hugh

Parry, Robert

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

McDonald, Dr Oonagh

Pavitt, Laurie

Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)

McElhone, Frank

Pendry, Tom

Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

McGuire, Michael (Ince)

Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)

Tilley, John

McKelvey, William

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Torney, Tom

MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)

Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

Maclennan, Robert

Race, Reg

Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

McNally, Thomas

Radice, Giles

Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)

McNamara, Kevin

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)

Watkins, David

McTaggart, Robert

Richardson, Jo

Weetch, Ken

McWilliam, John

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Wellbeloved, James

Magee, Bryan

Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)

Welsh, Michael

Marks, Kenneth

Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)

Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)

Robertson, George

White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)

Whitehead, Phillip

Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)

Rodgers, Rt Hon William

Whitlock, William

Martin, Michael (Gl'sgow, Springb'rn)

Rooker, J. W.

Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Roper, John

Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

Maxton, John

Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

Maynard, Miss Joan

Ross, Wm. (Londonderry)

Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)

Meacher, Michael

Ryman, John

Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

Sever, John

Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

Sheerman, Barry

Winnick, David

Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)

Woodall, Alec

Molyneaux, James

Short, Mrs Renée

Woolmer, Kenneth

Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshaw)

Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

Wrigglesworth, Ian

Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw)

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)

Silverman, Julius

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Morton, George

Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)

Mr. Donald Coleman and

Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

Snape, Peter

Mr. Joseph Dean.

Newens, Stanley

Soley, Clive

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Code of Practice on Closed Shop Agreements and Arrangements, which was laid before this House on 5 November, be approved.

COUNCIL HOUSES (RENTS)
Mr. Roy Hattersley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise what is by any standards a scandalous denial of the rights of this House. Earlier this evening, the Secretary of State for the Environment published a written answer to a question which amounted to an announcement that council house tenants in the United Kingdom are soon to endure a rent increase of from £2.50 to £3 a week—an increase of 30 per cent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."].
Clearly, the Secretary of State should have had the courage to make that announcement to the House, and clearly the Prime Minister should prevent members of her Cabinet from following such cowardly practices. The offence of the Secretary of State has been compounded by the fact that he had innumerable opportunities yesterday during his Department's
764
Question Time to make the announcement—an announcement that he was clearly prepared to make, since a written document has been published for more than 24 hours.
I therefore ask you, Mr. Speaker, what opportunity the Opposition have to defend not only council tenants but normal democratic procedures. In what way can we postpone prorogation in order that this disgraceful conduct by the Secretary of State can be debated? [Interruption.]
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I take any further points of order, let me say that I shall reply to the right hon. Gentleman, but at present we are waiting for Black-Rod—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Order When Black Rod arrives, it is a Royal Command, and I shall lead the procession.
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine): Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It may be for the convenience of the House if I explain that up to now consultative processes were not involved—[Interruption]—in fixing or deciding the level—[Interruption]—in fixing or arriving at a decision about the level of council house rents. It was the practice of my

765
predecessors to announce their views—when they had taken the decision finally—to the House, and there was then no way in which the views of other people could be collected before the decision was taken.
Under the Housing Act 1980, we have provided for the first time that there should be—[Laughter.] I should have thought that Opposition Members would welcome consultation, not laugh at it. The Government have provided for a period of consultation before the decisions are taken and announced to the House. What I have done today is to start the process of consultation—[Interruption]—by making available the consultative documents required under the Housing Act 1980.
Mr. Hattersley: For the statement that the Secretary of State has just made to contain any shred of truth it must mean that there is still a prospect—[Interruption]—that council house rents will not increase by £2.50 or £3 a week. Nobody in the House believes that to be true and nobody in the House—[Interruption]—nobody in the Houseߞ
Mr. Speaker: Black Rod.
Mr. Frank Allaun rose—
Mr. Speaker: Black Rod. [Interruption.] Black Rod. [HON. MEMBERS:"Go back."] Order. I appeal to hon. Members to make way for Black Rod. [HON. MEMBERS:"No".] Order. [HON. MEMBERS:"Name them."] I have no desire at this stage of the Session to name anyone. I believe that our normal traditions and courtesies should be observed. [Interruption.] I ask hon. Members to make way for Black Rod. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Order. The sitting is suspended for 10 minutes.
10.38 pm
Sitting suspended.
10.49 pm
On resuming—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I make one further appeal to hon. Members to make way for Black Rod.
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Michael Foot: It would be helpful to the whole House if
766
we could escape from the difficulty in which we are placed, but the Opposition feel that the rights of the House of Commons have been grossly interfered with by the behaviour of the Secretary of State for the Environment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] We fully appreciate, Mr. Speaker, the difficulties in which you and the House are placed, but we believe that the origin of the difficulties is with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not know where he is. It is deeply offensive to the House that he should not be here.
What we should like to suggest as a means of escaping from the impasse is that the right hon. Gentleman should rise, or, if he is not present, the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House, and say that this so-called consultative document, which we believe is very much more than a consultative document—it is in fact a declaration of policy—will be withdrawn and that the Government will introduce it in the new Session, after they have had real consultations. If the Government made an announcement of that nature, if there is any validity in their document, they would still have the chance of proceeding. However, for such a proposition to be introduced at the very last second of the Session is an insult to the House as a whole.
At Question Time today incredulously I put it to the Prime Minister that I hoped that the Government would not introduce any fresh statement of policy by a written answer, as they had done over the 6 per cent. statement, yet here we have a further illustration of that method.
I plead with the Government, in order to remove the difficulties and escape from the impasse—and I fully accept the difficulties in which you, Mr. Speaker, and the House are placed—to say that this so-called consultative document will be withdrawn and will be reintroduced, if at all, in the next Session.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Leader of the House of Commons and Minister for the Arts (Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas): May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it would be in the interests of the House if you would be good enough to have a further suspension?
Mr. Foot: May I say, Mr. Speaker, that sometimes it is necessary to have

767
suspensions of the House, but I believe that that is not the best way for us to proceed now. Very often Governments have to make up their minds. I suggest that this Government should make up their mind about this present situation. What we and the country are faced with is a document that has been introduced at the very last moment, without any possibility of our knowing what is to be proposed, and we are suggesting to the Government a way in which they can escape from the impasse. I do not believe that it is necessary to have a suspension. If the Government had any sense of the House of Commons, they would withdraw the document on the spot.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: May I point out to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, that it is precisely to consider what he has said that I am suggesting that there might be a short suspension.
Mr. Speaker: In view of the exchanges, I suspend the sitting for a quarter of an hour.
10.53 pm
Sitting suspended.
11.8 pm
On resuming—
Mr. Heseltine: Further to the earlier points of order, Mr. Speaker. The House will remember that I explained the position that surrounded the normal arrangements up until this year whereby we had announced the levels expected for council house rents. I made it clear that the practice of the right hon. Member for Stepney and Poplar (Mr. Shore), who is in his place, was to announce his views in a written answer. I made it clear that last year I announced my views in a written answer to the House, and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), the Opposition spokesman on this matter, questioned that position.
I was absent from my place for a few minutes during earlier exchanges because I wanted to check the facts. I have been able to obtain from the Library of the House a copy of the written answer that I gave on 16 November 1979, in which I made it quite clear that I was anticipating a rent increase of about £1·50 a week. [AN HON. MEMBER:
768
"That was a year ago."] So what I told the House was totally true. There was no debate on that occasion. There was no call for a debate on that occasion.
In reaching my decision how I should proceed last year I took account of the precedents established by the Labour Government.
As I said, until this year no consultative process was involved in the fixing of the rents. In the course of the legislative arrangements under the Housing Act 1980, we have arranged for Ministers not to announce their views without consultation on the level of council house rents. Therefore, under the Housing Act 1980, I have recently been presenting to the House a series of consultative documents which are necessary to implement the 1980 Act. There has been a series of such documents. Two of them were made available in the Library, again complying with precedent, as a result of a written answer today. Therefore, I believe that I have totally fulfilled the precedent in this matter.
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. James A. Dunn: We do not think so.
Mr. Heseltine: It is necessary, in the orderly conduct of our relationship with local government, to give local government the maximum possible notice in all the circumstances of what we have in mind, particularly at this time of the year, when local authorites are making arrangements for their budgets for the financial year 1981–82.
If we do not proceed with the consultation processes that I have set in train today, there will be uncertainty in the planning of local authorities' budgets. That will not be helpful to local authorities in their budgeting process. Therefore, my advice to the House is that we should proceed with the consultative process. [HON MEMBERS: "No."]
Only one conceivable factor would make me wish to change that advice, and that is your authority, Mr. Speaker. I believe that that is now at stake. I am prepared to begin the consultative process in the new Parliament and, therefore, to withdraw the consultative document. [Interruption.] But I make it clear that that is done purely to uphold your authority, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Foot: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman concluded his remarks with the statement for which we had asked. [HON. MEMBERS: "We are not."] I think that the rest of the House is. As I said, I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman concluded his remarks with the statement for which we asked precisely for the reason that we asked for it, because it relieves the House of the difficulties in which it was placed. Therefore, what my right hon Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) asked for originally has now been accepted by the Government. I must say—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The House has already behaved in a disorderly manner. I hope that we can now reach a conclusion.
Mr. Foot: I am glad that we should reach a conclusion. But I say to the right hon. Gentleman and to the House that it would have been much wiser if the Government had earlier accepted our suggestion for dealing with this matter. The situation would not have arisen if the Government had not taken this action in the last minutes of prorogation. The right hon. Gentleman and the Government were guilty of a grave offence against the House when they did that. It is extremely gratifying that they have now withdrawn the document, but they could have done it with much better grace.
Mr. John Gorst rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Before Black Rod enters the Chamber, I want to tell the House that I believe that we endanger our parliamentary institutions—[Interruption.] Order. What has happened tonight is quite unprecedented.
Mr. Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I draw your attention to the fact that this evening we have witnessed picketing by more than six people, at least half a dozen of whom were to be seen on the Grunwick picket line. Surely that justifies those of us who voted against the code of practice on picketing.
Mr. Speaker: I believe that Black Rod has been delayed—[Interruption.] I can assure hon. Members that we have only a second or two to wait.
Mr. Foot rose—
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must recall that this House stands for better conduct than we have had tonight.

ROYAL ASSENT
11.17 pm
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners; the House went:—and, having returned:
Mr. Speaker(in the Clerk's place at the Table): I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers where a Commission under the Great Seal was read, authorising the Royal Assent to the following Acts:

1. Limitation Act 1980.

2. Statute Law Revision (Northern Ireland) Act 1980.

3. Civil Aviation Act 1980.

4. Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Amendment Act 1980.

5. Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980.

6. Overseas Development and Cooperation Act 1980.

7. Broadcasting Act 1980.

8. Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.

9. Highways Act 1980.

10. Tyne and Wear Act 1980.

PROROGATION

  HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
  Mr. Speaker: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, one of the High Commissioners, delivered Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of Her Majesty's Command. For greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy.
  On previous occasions the Speaker has at this stage read the Gracious Speech in full to the House. I shall, however, continue the practice begun at the beginning of the Session and direct that the terms of the Speech be printed in the Votes and Proceedings. Copies are being made available in the Vote Office.
  The Gracious Speech was as follows:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  My Husband and I were pleased to receive the State Visits of the President of Kenya in June 1979 and of the President of the Republic of Indonesia and Madame Tien Soeharto in November.
  We look back with much pleasure on the visits we have made. We visited Denmark in May 1979; and Tanzania, Botswana. Malawi and Zambia in July and August. As Head of the Commonwealth, I was present in Lusaka on the occasion of the meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of Government. In May this year we visited Switzerland and we have recently returned from visits to Italy, the Holy See, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. We were greatly saddened by the death in July this year of President Khania of Botswana.
  My Government welcome the independence of Kiribati, St. Vincent, Zimbabwe and Vanuatu, and their decision to join the Commonwealth. Having brought Southern Rhodesia to independence in conditions of the widest international recognition, My Government have committed substantial aid to Zimbabwe's reconstruction and development.
  My Government attach the highest importance to ensuring the security of the nation and the maintenance of peace. They have played a leading rôle within the North Atlantic Alliance to ensure that the defence capability of the West is such as to deter any would-be aggressor. British defences have been strengthened and action has been taken to improve the morale of the armed forces. My Government have taken steps to maintain the effectiveness of Britain's nuclear deterrent into the 1990s and beyond. Realistic, balanced and verifiable arms control measures have been sought in the Committee on Disarmament and in other negotiations.
  In conjunction with the United Kingdom's partners and allies, My Government have sought to bring home to the Soviet Union the damage which its
  actions have done to East-West relations. My Government have played an active part in the international effort to enable Afghanistan to resume its traditional neutrality and non-alignment.
  My Government have sought to play a constructive part in the work of the European Community and in European political co-operation. Arrangements have been agreed to reduce substantially the United Kingdom's net contribution to the community budget and our partners in Europe are committed to a thorough review of the development of community policies and the operation of the budget. My Ministers have secured level terms of competition for the agricultural industry under the common agricultural policy and have been negotiating a revision of the common fisheries policy which takes account of the need to conserve fish stocks and to protect the interests of our fishermen.
  My Government have also worked for a negotiated peace in the Arab/Israeli conflict acceptable to all parties. Together with the other members of the European Community, they stated in Venice on 13th June this year the principles on which they believed such a settlement should be based. They are playing a full part in the action being taken to follow up this declaration.
  The United Kingdom also took an active part in the discussion of international economic and political questions at the summit meeting of the leaders of the seven major industrialised countries held in Venice in June this year.
  My Government have continued to co-operate in international efforts to solve the serious economic difficulties of many developing countries. They have been active also in Commonwealth affairs and in the work of the United Nations and its specialised agencies. Britain's contacts with countries in Latin America and elsewhere have been strengthened.
  My Government have supported the efforts of the countries of the Association of South East Asian Nations to meet the threat posed by Vietnam's
  armed intervention in Cambodia, and have taken a leading part in international moves to relieve famine and to care for refugees in South East Asia.
  Members of the House of Commons
  I thank you for the provision which you have made for the honour and dignity of the Crown and for the public services.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  My Government have given priority to bringing down the rate of inflation through the pursuit of firm monetary and fiscal policies. A medium-term financial strategy has been published, entailing a progressive decline in the growth of the money supply and fiscal policies consistent with this. Progress has been made towards securing a substantial reduction in the burden of official external debt during the lifetime of this Parliament.
  Income tax has been cut significantly, with the object of restoring incentives and creating conditions in which commerce and industry can flourish. Plans for public expenditure have been published, showing progressive reductions in total but with increases on defence, law and order and health and social security.
  My Government have introduced measures to free business and commerce from unnecessary controls and to assist exporters. Statutory control of dividends has been abolished. Legislation has been passed to strengthen the control of anti-competitive practices in industry and commerce and to abolish the Price Commission. Steps have been taken to stimulate improvements in the marketing and export of agricultural and food products.
  An Act has been passed to improve industrial relations and to bring about a fairer balance between the rights of employers, trade unions and individual employees.
  Measures have been introduced to stimulate enterprise and competition, to encourage the growth of new businesses and to reduce nationalised and state ownership. Steps have been taken to increase the efficiency and reduce the size of the Civil Service, Substantial private sector support has been
  obtained for the advanced factory programme in the assisted areas. My Government have announced their intention to set up urban development corporations in the London and Merseyside docklands and enterprise zones in nine locations, and the necessary statutory authority has been secured. Measures to strengthen industry in the regions have been concentrated in the areas of greatest need.
  Legislation has been passed to allow British Aerospace, British Airways and the National Freight Corporation to be taken into the private sector, and to increase competition in the bus industry. An Act has been passed to modify the functions of the National Enterprise Board and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. Legislative provision has been made to amend the financing of the National Coal Board and for the payment of certain grants to assist the Board.
  My Government have implemented in full the recommendations on police pay of the Committee of Inquiry on the Police and have been pleased to see a substantial increase in the strength of the police service. An Act has been passed to establish a Police Negotiating Board for the United Kingdom. The Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the United Kingdom prison services was received and my Government have taken action on its main recommendations.
  In Northern Ireland, my Government have made continuing efforts to combat terrorism and promote security within the normal framework of the rule of law. A conference of local political leaders has been held and, following the publication of some Proposals for Further Discussion, a programme of extensive consultations has been undertaken, in pursuance of my Minsters' objective of returning power to locally-elected representatives on a basis acceptable to both parts of the community.
  Legislation has been passed to give public sector tenants in England and Wales and in Scotland an extensive right to buy their homes and a Tenants' Charter of Rights, and to provide measures to encourage short-term private lettings.
  An Act was passed to provide, among other matters, for the relaxation of controls over local authorities in England and Wales, including a new and more flexible system for controlling their capital expenditure, for a fairer system for the distribution of rate support grant to local authorities, for the regulation of local authority direct labour departments, and for the repeal of the Community Land Act.
  Legislation has been passed to remove the compulsion on local authorities in England and Wales to reorganise secondary schools on comprehensive lines; to give parents the right to express a preference for a school and to take part with teachers in school government; and to provide for a scheme to assist children of families of limited means to attend independent schools.
  Special employment and training measures have been taken to assist young people and others in a time of high unemployment. Provision has been made for increases in social security benefits and contributions. A major reform of the supplementary benefit scheme has been initiated. Legislation has also been enacted to limit the increasing expenditure on social security. My Government have published proposals for making employers responsible for sick pay during the early weeks of an employee's illness.
  An Act has been passed to assist the development of private medical care and improvements in health services. Steps have been taken to simplify the structure and management of the National Health Service.
  An Act has been passed to establish the National Heritage Memorial Fund. Legislation too provide for a public lending right for authors has been brought into force. My Government have taken effective steps actively to encourage business sponsorship of the arts.
  An Act has been passed to provide for the extension of the life of the Independent Broadcasting Authority for a further fifteen years; for the establishment by the Authority of a fourth television channel in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, subject to strict safeguards; for the establishment in Wales of a Welsh Fourth Channel Authority with special responsibility for broadcasting television programmes in Welsh; and for the establishment of a Broadcasting Complaints Commission.
  My Government have substantially increased direct expenditure on support for the Welsh language. Legislation has also been passed to enable grants to be paid towards Welsh language teaching.
  Further provision has been made in Scottish legislation to continue financial support for air services in the highlands and islands and to improve criminal justice and the treatment of offenders in Scotland.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
  I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you.
  Mr. Speaker: Therefore, a Commission for proroguing Parliament was read, after which the Lord Chancellor said:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
  By virtue of Her Majesty's Commission which has now been read, we do, in Her Majesty's name, and in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Thursday the twentieth day of this instant November, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Thursday the twentieth day of this instant November.
  End of the First Session (opened on 15 May 1979) of the Forty-eighth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Twenty-ninth Year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

  OPEN CHANNEL RADIO
  OPEN CHANNEL RADIO
  LAW OF DILIGENCE
  LAW OF DILIGENCE
  CASH LIMITS
  CASH LIMITS
EMPLOYMENT
  Foreign Nationals
  Foreign Nationals
  Inflation
  Inflation
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INDUSTRY
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ENERGY
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NORTHERN IRELAND
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HOME DEPARTMENT
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  Firemen (Emergency Call-outs)
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  Mr. Ronald Riley
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  Departmental Staff
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  Williams Report
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  Deaths in Police Custody
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CIVIL SERVICE
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SCOTLAND
  Scottish Construction Industry Group
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  Sheepmeat
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  Dairy Industry
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  Air Weapons
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DEFENCE
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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TRANSPORT
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  Public and Press Relations
  Goods and Passenger Vehicles Inspection)
  Goods and Passenger Vehicles Inspection)
  M25
  M25
  M1
  M1
  A45
  A45
  A58
  A58
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  Trunk Roads (Hotels)
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  Tolls
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  Road Schemes (Surplus Housing)
ENVIRONMENT
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  Roads (Expenditure)
  Roads (Expenditure)
  Construction and Demolition Contractors
  Construction and Demolition Contractors
  Brixton Recreation Centre
  Brixton Recreation Centre
  Housing Standards
  Housing Standards
  Housing Association Programme
  Housing Association Programme
  Wisley Airfield (Rights of Way)
  Wisley Airfield (Rights of Way)
  Property Services Agency
  Property Services Agency
  Rate Support Grant
  Rate Support Grant
  London Docklands (House Building)
  London Docklands (House Building)
  Local Authorities and Water Authorities (Wages and Salaries)
  Local Authorities and Water Authorities (Wages and Salaries)
  Departmental Telephone Bill
  Departmental Telephone Bill
  House Building (Greater London)
  House Building (Greater London)
  Aerodromes and Hangers (Preservation Orders)
  Aerodromes and Hangers (Preservation Orders)
  Ordnance Survey
  Ordnance Survey
  Urban Development Corporations
  Urban Development Corporations
  Department Staff
  Department Staff
  Housing Statistics
  Housing Statistics
  Housing Aid Projects
  Housing Aid Projects
  Housing Conditions (Merseyside)
  Housing Conditions (Merseyside)
  Housing Expenditure (Whitehaven)
  Housing Expenditure (Whitehaven)
  Housing Associations
  Housing Associations
  Voluntary Housing Movement
  Voluntary Housing Movement
  Housing Action Areas and General Improvement Areas
  Housing Action Areas and General Improvement Areas
  Building Regulations
  Building Regulations
  Home Insulation
  Home Insulation
  Building Controls
  Building Controls
  Housing Subsidy System
  Housing Subsidy System
  Council House Sales
  Council House Sales
  Housing Construction
  Housing Construction
  Derelict Land (Staffordshire)
  Derelict Land (Staffordshire)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Blackburn.

NORTH SEA: GAS-GATHERING PIPELINE
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals for an organisation to own and operate the North Sea gas-gathering pipeline have been received from the organising group; and whether they still expect the pipeline to be operational by October 1984.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy received on 31st October an interim report from the Gas Gathering Organising Group, and is now considering the report's contents. The report describes progress on both organisational and financial matters as well as the physical aspects of the project. The organisation group's interim report confirms that completion by 1984–85 is achieveable.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply, which is fairly encouraging. Would he not agree that the fact that they have only got an interim report by the end of October suggests that the timetable is already beginning to slip, and the more it is thought to slip the more sceptical are our prospective Norwegian partners going to be about the feasibility of achieving the 1984 target?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I think we are on target. As I say, the report does consider this to be achieveable. The Government do, of course, consider
1478
that a gas-gathering system in the North Sea should be constructed as quickly as possible. Planning permission has now been granted for plants at St. Fergus and Nigg Bay, and the British Gas Corporation has already acquired land at St. Fergus. So I think my right honourable friend will confirm that we are getting on.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I ask the Government whether they are aware that, in the words of The Times today, even the production of North Sea oil and gas is falling, and if this is so what are they intending to do about it?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I have not read the reports to which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, refers, as, due to the pressure of parliamentary business, I have not seen The Times today.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, it is on the front page.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I would have to have notice of the question. The Government, of course, do have a great interest, as does the entire country, in ensuring that production is stepped up in the North Sea, and that is precisely why we are getting ahead with this gas-gathering project.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the interim report is going to be made available to the public?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I imagine that it does involve matters of commercial confidentiality, as the British Gas Corporation, the British Petroleum Company and Mobil Oil are involved in the organising group, but I will investigate and I will write to my noble friend.

NORTH SEA: HUTTON FIELD PLATFORM
3.11 p.m.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how much, in both percentage and financial terms, of the design and construction costs of the tension leg platform authorised for installation by Conoco on the Hutton Field of the United Kingdom continental shelf will be provided by British and Scottish sources respectively.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, design work for the tension leg platform is largely being carried out in the United Kingdom and this phase is not expected to be completed before the summer of 1981. It is not possible at this stage to assess either the value or percentage of orders which may ultimately be placed with United Kingdom industry. Conoco have, however, indicated to the Department of Energy that they expect United Kingdom industry to win a substantial level of orders in both the design and construction of the platform. We shall be monitoring that position very closely.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he can refer to Scottish participation, since the Question referred to both British and Scottish sources respectively.
The Earl of GOWRIE: Yes, my Lords; of course, Scottish provision would also be covered by my original Answer.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether a tension leg platform would qualify for a shipbuilding grant under Finance for Industry?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, when is a ship not a ship? When it is a tension leg, I imagine. I would have to be given notice of that question, but I will write to the noble Lord.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, is it not the case that this is a very important new generation of platforms which is coming into view, opening up a completely new area of technology? Would my noble friend agree that, because of that, it is most important that these orders all come to the United Kingdom and we are not beaten by Korea,
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Yugoslavia and other countries which seem to be able to compete so successfully.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, as a Minister with employment responsibilities, I am, of course, extremely interested in the point my noble friend makes, and I agree with him. I am encouraged that this technology is developing here. It should have very wide applications in, for example, the future development of deep waters all round the world.

HILL FARMERS: LIVESTOCK ALLOWANCES
3.13 p.m.
Lord GRIDLEY: My Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to improve the income of hill farmers in 1981.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, my right honourable friends are at present reviewing the hill livestock allowances, in consultation with the farmers' unions. We shall announce the outcome of the review as soon as it is completed.
Lord GRIDLEY: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer, but can he indicate when we can expect the report on the designation of what constitutes marginal and upland land? Would it not assist farmers in the present difficulties which face them if this report were to hand and they could more or less calculate what compensation they might expect to receive?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, what compensation they might expect to receive is, of course, a prerogative of the Government, and I can only tell my noble friend that he will find out the answer to his question as soon as negotiations are completed.
Lord PEART: My Lords, will the noble Earl recognise that this is really a very important question for a section of the industry in which the noble Lord

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is involved? I believe that hill farming must have a certain priority. I regret to say that on one occasion when I ceased to be a Minister we had a wonderful scheme for the development of the hill farms and it was destroyed just like that. So will the noble Earl give us a really satisfactory answer?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I would be delighted to give the noble Lord, Lord Peart, a satisfactory answer. I recognise that this is a very important point. He will realise that in 1976 the Government, of which he was a distinguished member, fixed the grants for hill livestock compensatory allowances at a certain figure and they remained unchanged until 1979 when they went up by a 50p supplement for the higher rate for hill sheep. It was my right honourable friend who last year put the rates up very considerably, with the result that in 1979 the expenditure by the Government on hill livestock compensatory allowances was £.57·4 million and this year it is £79 million, which is an increase of very nearly 40 per cent., over what the noble Lord's Government did.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, anent this issue of the hill farmers, is the noble Earl aware—to give a personal example—that for a quarter of a century I had the privilege and the honour to represent a part of North Staffordshire and East Staffordshire where there were 3,000 farms, 1,400 of which were under 30 acres and many of them were in hill farm country? Will the noble Earl tell me whether there is still the tendency to say to the small farmer, "You must grow bigger"? The individuality and yeomanry of Britain have been kept alive for centuries by the first-class breeding of this type of man in our civilisation. Will the noble Earl still remember that small is beautiful, and not let us wipe this type of person off the earth to please those who are concerned with contracts on a large scale?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I could not find anything over which to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek. I think that these people who work in the hills are a staunch backbone of the people of this country and we wish to see them so continue. There is, however, the difficulty of trying to ensure that their livelihood
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keeps pace with modern times, but that is the reason why my right honourable friend last year made this very substantial increase of nearly 40 per cent. We hope to take their condition into account in the current review.
Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOOD: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend very much for the help that has been given to hill farmers, I should like to say, as a hill farmer, that the urgency of the matter is tremendous. Costs have increased enormously and we need an immediate inquiry and, if possible, an immediate answer, otherwise there will be bankruptcies right and left.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, an immediate inquiry, my noble friend will be glad to know, is being instituted, but an immediate answer I cannot give for the reasons I have already given. But, if my noble friend is patient for a short while, she will soon have an answer.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Earl spoke with great satisfaction about a 40 per cent. increase. Can he say whether that was an increase in real money terms? If not, would he care to say whether it was an increase or a decrease, if we are comparing like with like?
Earl FERRERS: No, my Lords, it is an increase in money terms and not necessarily in real terms. I would have to find out the answer to that point before I gave it to the noble Lord.
Lord HAWKE: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the recent heavy fall in the retail price of English lamb has been at the expense of the hill farmers or not?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I do not think that it has been at the expense of the hill farmers, but I daresay that the hill farmers in some way and some time later on might feel the draught of it.
Lord COLLISON: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of the tremendous struggle hill farmers are now having in order to keep their heads above water and to remain in operation? Other noble Lords have already asked whether the noble Earl recognises the importance of hill farming. It is, of course, a most

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important element of the British farming picture. Together they contribute a considerable amount to the economy and a considerable amount to agriculture. Does the noble Earl recognise that, because their farms are small, they are hit more heavily by inflation in terms of buying the necessary equipment they have to have and the foodstuffs with which they have to supplement their stock in winter? Will the noble Earl take careful note of what the National Farmers' Union, which represents these people, says to him?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collison. These people play a very important part in the life not only of agriculture but of Great Britain. I accept the fact that they live in very difficult conditions and have been affected by inflation. I can assure him that we shall take into account very carefully what the National Farmers' Union says and what its views are. Our own view is that we wish to see these people who farm in this way live as reasonable a life as possible within the constraints within which we are all bound to operate.
Lord GRIDLEY: My Lords, I should like to ask one final question. Does not the report which is awaited deal in some substance with the definition of what is marginal and upland land and therefore applies to those people who might be considered to have a case for applying for assistance? For that reason alone, is there not some urgency for having the report as soon as possible for the benefit of these farmers?
Earl FERRERS: Yes, my Lords, I accept my noble friend's call for urgency. All that I can tell him is that we shall see that this is produced as soon as possible.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
3.19 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare)The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare) rose to move, That the Fourth Report from the Select Committee be agreed to.
The report read as follows:
1. USE OF CLOCKS IN THE CHAMBER
The Committee have considered a proposal that the clocks in the Chamber should be used to record the length of time taken on amendments at Report Stages of Public Bills, rather than to record the length of speeches as at present. They have also considered whether the clocks might be used in Committee of the whole House to record the time taken on amendments and on debates on the question that a Clause (or Schedule) stand part of the Bill.
The Committee see the principal use of the clocks as being to indicate how long a Lord has spoken. They, therefore, recommend that there should be no change in the present practice with regard to the use of the clocks during Report Stages. They recommend, however, that, as an experiment, the clocks should be used during Committee Stages for recording the time taken on amendments or on debates on the question that a Clause (or Schedule) stand part of the Bill.
2. HOUSE OF LORDS JOURNALS: EXCLUSION OF SELECT COMMITTEE REPORTS
The Committee have considered a proposal by the Clerk of the Parliaments that, in order to reduce the cost of production of each volume of the House of Lords Journals, reports of Select Committees of the House should be omitted from the Journals. The Committee were informed that Select Committee reports are separately available in bound form. They, therefore, recommend that in future Select Committee reports, other than those dealing with matters of domestic concern to the House, should be omitted from the Journals.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. In moving this Motion, I think that I should briefly refer to the fact that on the same day as the Procedure Committee met—5th November—there was some discussion in the House on the subject of amendments at Third Reading. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, suggested that this should be referred to the Procedure Committee. It was referred to the Procedure Committee, but the committee—I think wisely—thought that it would be rather foolish of them to embark on a discussion on such an important matter without due preparation. Therefore, it has been deferred to their next meeting when they can consider it fully. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Fourth Report from the Select Committee be agreed to.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT AND CO-OPERATION BILL [H.L.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My

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Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendment be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendment be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
[The references are to Bill [234] as first printed for the Commons.]
Schedule 2, page 21, line 8, column 3, at end insert ("so far as it relates to British Shipbuilders").
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their amendment. It was made in Schedule 2 to this Bill and its necessity is due to the fact that when the Bill was drafted it was thought that the British Aerospace Act 1980 would now be in force. That is not now in fact the case, and it will therefore preserve part of Section 3(6) of the Act of 1977. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HIGHWAYS BILL [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
[References are to Bill [243] as first printed for the Commons.]
1 Clause 24, page 25, line 39, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
("(4) The Minister or a local highway authority may provide and maintain new road-ferries.").
2 Clause 26, page 27, line 1, leave out sub-section (2) and insert—
("(2) Where it appears to the Secretary of State in a particular case that there is need for a footpath or bridleway as mentioned in subsection (1) above, and he is satisfied as mentioned in that subsection, he may, after consultation with each body which is a local authority for the purposes of this section in relation to the land
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concerned, make a public path creation order creating the footpath or bridle-way.").
3 Clause 26, line 10, leave out from beginning of ("a") in line 11.
4 Clause 27, page 27, line 42, leave out subsections (2) to (4).
5 Clause 27, page 28, line 20, leave out from beginning to ("specified") in line 21 and insert ("It shall be the duty of the highway authority to carry out any works")
6 Clause 27, line 38, leave out subsection (7) and insert—
("(7) Where the Secretary of State makes a public path creation order under section 26(2) above, he may direct that subsection (7A) below shall apply.
(7A) Where the Secretary of State gives such a direction—

(a) the local authority who, on the coming into force of the order, became the highway authority for the path or way in question shall survey the path or way and shall certify what work (if any) appears to them to be necessary to bring it into a fit condition for use by the public as a footpath or bridleway, as the case may be, and shall furnish the Secretary of State with a copy of the certificate;

(b) if the Secretary of State is not satisfied with a certificate made under the foregoing paragraph, he shall either cause a local inquiry to be held or shall give to the local authority an opportunity of being heard by a person appointed by him for the purpose and, after considering the report of the person appointed to hold the inquiry or the person so appointed as aforesaid, shall make such order either confirming or varying the certificate as he may think fit; and

(c) subject to the provisions of the last foregoing paragraphs, it shall be the duty of the highway authority to carry out the work specified in a certificate made by them under paragraph (a) above").

7 Clause 37, page 39, line 12, leave out ("clerk") and insert ("proper officer").
8 Clause 56, page 53, line 34, leave out subsection (6).
9 Clause 74, page 67, line 33, leave out subsection (2).
10 Clause 90, leave out Clause 90.
11 Clause 91, leave out Clause 91.
12 Clause 118, page 103, line 9, leave out from ("withheld") to end of line 10.
13 Clause 118, page 104, line 27, leave out second ("clerk") and insert ("proper officer").
14 Clause 122, page 108, line 25, leave out ("the") and insert ("a").
15 Clause 122, page 108, line 25, leave out lines 42 to 46 and insert ("he may himself make the order after consultation with the appropriate authority").
16 Clause 122, page 109, 1, leave out subsection (4).
17 Clause 122, page 109, line 11, leave out subsection (6) and insert—
("(6) Where under subsection (3) above the Secretary of State decides to make a public diversion order, he may require the owner, lessee or occupier on whose representations he is acting to enter into an agreement with such council as he may specify for the owner, lessee or occupier to defray, or to make such contribution as may be specified in the agreement towards any such compensation or expenses as are specified in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 121(5) above.".).
18 Clause 126, page 111, line 43, leave out from ("making") to ("received") in line 44 and insert ("of an order by the Minister").
19 Clause 126, page 112, line 1, leave out ("the Minister; and") and insert ("him;
(ca) for objections to the confirmation of an order made by a local highway authority to be considered by the Minister if any of the objections to the confirmation of the order received within such period as may be so prescribed and not withdrawn was made by an owner, lessee or occupier of any premises with a private means of access which the order would authorise the highway authority to stop up;
(cb) for objections to the confirmation of an order made by a local highway authority received within such period as may be so prescribed and not withdrawn to be considered by the local highway authority if there is no objection received within that period from an owner, lessee or occupier such as is mentioned in paragraph (ca) above or if all such objections so received are withdrawn before the order is referred to the Minister for confirmation;".).
20 Clause 126, page 112, line 6, leave out subsection (5) and insert—
("(5) In the case of an order made by a local authority under this section—

(a) if no objection to the confirmation of the order is received within the period prescribed by regulations under subsection (4) above; or

(b) if every such objection so received is withdrawn; or

(c) if every such objection so received from an owner, lessee or occupier of any premises with a private means of access which the order would authorise the highway authority to stop up is withdrawn,

the local highway authority may themselves confirm the order, with or without modifications.
(5A) Before confirming an order with modifications the local highway authority, if they consider that the proposed modifications will make a substantial change in the order, shall
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inform every such owner, lessee or occupier as is mentioned in subsection (5)(c) above and every other person who appears to them to be likely to be affected by the modifications to the order—

(a) of their intention to make the order; and

(b) of the form in which they propose to make it.

(5B) The local highway authority shall give every such person as is mentioned in subsection (5A) above an opportunity to make representations with regard to the order, and shall consider any representations with regard to it which any such person makes.".).
21 Clause 132, page 115, line 23, leave out first ("highway") and insert ("highways").
22 Clause 137, page 119, line 28, leave out from ("way") to end of line 30.
23 Clause 149, page 130, line 35, leave out subsections (3) and (4).
24 Clause 149, page 131, line 14, leave out from ("section") to ("the public") in line 15.
25 Clause 149, page 131, line 22, leave out from ("section") to ("is") in line 23.
26 Clause 150, page 131, line 42, leave out ("or gipsy").
27 Clause 174, page 157, line 29, leave out ("(1)") and insert (2)").
28 Clause 184, page 168, line 36, leave out ("licence") and insert ("licencee").
29 Clause 214, page 191, line 35, after ("interest") insert ("at such reasonable rates as the authority may determine").
30 Clause 214, page 192, line 14, leave out subsection (5).
31 Clause 221, page 196, line 15, after ("Executive") insert (", the National Freight Corporation (as far as included in this paragraph by paragraph 15(a) of Schedule 23 to this Act)").
32 Clause 222, page 199, line 44, after ("amount") insert ("paid").
33 Clause 239, page 213, leave out lines 21 and 22.
34 Clause 273, page 246, line 20, leave out from ("authority") to end of line 23.
35 Clause 273, page 246, line 44, leave out ("subject to the approval of the Minister").
36 Clause 282, page 251, line 25, leave out subsection (2).
37 Clause 294, page 260, line 12, leave out from ("section") to end of line 15 and insert ("32(9) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (£1,000 or such other sum as may be fixed by order under section 143(1) of that Act); or".)
38 Clause 299, page 262, line 32, leave out from ("section") to end of line 35 and insert ("32(9) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (£1,000 or such other sum as may be fixed by order under section 143(1) of that Act); or").
39 Clause 303, page 264, line 17, leave out subsection (3).
40 Clause 307, page 265, line 25, after ("interest"), insert ("at such reasonable rate as the council may determine").
41 Clause 307, page 265, line 33, after ("expense") insert ("and interest").
42 Clause 307, page 265, line 35, after ("interest",) insert ("on them at such reasonable rate as the authority may determine".).
43 Clause 307, page 266, line 9, leave out subsection (5).
44 Clause 322, page 271, line 9, leave out subsections (2) to (4).
45 Clause 331, page 280, line 20, leave out ("1952") and insert ("1980").
46 Clause 331, page 283, line 1, after ("Executive",) insert (",the National Freight Corporation as far as included in this subsection by paragraph 15(b) of Schedule 23 to this Act)".).
47 Clause 343, leave out Clause 343.
48 Clause 348, page 293, line 20, leave out from ("force") to the end of line 21 and insert ("on 1st January 1981").
In the Schedules
49 Schedule 8, page 314, line 46, leave out paragraph 4 and insert—
("4. Where the consent of the Minister is required under this Schedule, any dispute between the Minister whose consent is required and the authority as to whether the Minister's consent is unreasonably withheld or is given subject to reasonable conditions, or whether the removal of anything to the provision of which the consent relates in accordance with any condition of the consent is reasonably required shall be referred to and determined by an arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers.").
50 Schedule 22, page 337, line 29, leave out from ("167") to ("to") in line 30 and insert ("sections 173").
51 Schedule 22, page 337, line 34, after ("188") insert ("to 190, 192").
52 Schedule 23, page 338, line 4 leave out paragraph 1 and insert—
("1. Section 6(1) and section 7(1) of this Act shall have effect in relation to land acquired by a Minister in connection with a trunk road, or, as the case may be, acquired by the Greater London Council in connection with a metropolitan road, under subsection (5) or (6) of section 214 of the Highways Act 1959 (or, in the case of a Minister, under so much of section 13 of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act 1935 as is re-enacted in those subsections) as they have in relation to land so acquired under section 248 of this Act (or, by virtue of paragraph 17 below, under section 22 of the Land Compensation Act 1973).").
53 Schedule 22, page 341, line 22, leave out subparagraph (4).
54 Schedule 22, page 344, line 9, leave out ("section 41 of the Community Land Act 1975' and insert 'section 120 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 (which re-enacts with modifications section 41 of the Community Land Act 1975).").
55 Schedule 22, page 345, line 43, at end insert—
("References to Magistrates' Courts Act 1980
Until the day appointed for the coming into force of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980—

(a) the references in sections 294(4) and 299(3) of this Act to sections 32(9) and 143(1) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 shall be construed respectively as references to sections 28(7) and 61(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1977;

(b) the reference in section 331(1) of this Act, in the definition of "petty sessions area", to the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 shall be construed as a reference to the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952.").

56 Schedule 24, page 347, line 13, after ("(2)") insert (",(4)")
57 Schedule 24, page 355, line 11, at end insert—
("Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978
'In section 3(3) of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 for "the Highways Act 1959" substitute "the Highways Act 1980".").
58 Schedule 25, page 357, column 3, leave out lines 15 to 17
59 Schedule 25, page 357, line 58, at end insert—

("1980 c. 43.

Magistrates' Courts Act 1980.

In Schedule 7, paragraph 29.")

60 Schedule 25, page 357, line 58, at end insert—

("1980 c. 00.

Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.

In Schedule 7, paragraphs 1(2), 2(1) (2)(b), (3) and (4), 3(1),(3) and 5.").

The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I shall take these amendments—I think I can safely say so—en bloc. I beg to move that in each case this House doth agree with the Commons in their amendments. There are, in fact, 60 of them, which sounds a formidable menu, but in fact, as your Lordships will remember, this is an enormous consolidation Bill.
Forty of the amendments are simply consequential on amendments to the existing highways legislation contained in the Local Government, Planning and Land (No. 2) Bill, which is now to receive

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the Royal Assent. Four are consequential on the passing of another consolidation Act, the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980: and, with one exception, the remaining amendments are minor drafting amendments.
That leaves me with one, Amendment No. 48. The effect of that is to bring the Act into force on 1st January 1981 rather than three months after the Royal Assent to this Bill. The reason for that is due to the terms of a certain private Act known as the South Yorkshire Act. I hope that that covers all the amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 60 en bloc.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: My Lords, naturally one takes what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor says on trust in these matters, and I gladly share that trust. It is an unusually large collection—if that is not too unkind a description of it—of amendments on consolidation. One looks with prima facie concern and alarm at the ease with which a large number of clauses in the Bill, as it originally came forward, are now simply left out, but I understand that that is a result of later legislation, and I accept that that is so. Clearly, the amendments have been considered carefully and with approval in another place, and I am content to rely on the assurances of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am deeply obliged to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Elwyn-Jones, for his confiding nature, which I hope will prove to be well justified. I expect that it is due to the fact that he knows that in a matter of this kind I am the recipient of excellent advice from professional sources. I can only say that I am very grateful to him for allowing me to deal with the matter in this way. I agree that it is a formidable task in appearance, but I think that the reality is less serious.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PICKETING: CODE OF PRACTICE
3.26 p.m.
The Earl of GOWRIE The Earl of GOWRIE rose to move, That the draft code of practice laid before the House on 5th November be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving the first of the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I speak to both the Motions standing in my name.
No aspect of industrial relations in this country has occasioned greater public concern than picketing and the closed shop. That concern was vividly reflected in our debates earlier this year on the Employment Bill. I was deeply impressed, as I know were many who attended those debates, both inside and outside the House, by the strong feelings which were expressed by noble Lords from all parties and from the Cross-Benches and by the breadth and width of support for the measures which we have taken.
I do not intend today to rehearse the arguments which have led to the statutory protection against secondary picketing and the closed shop which is now enshrined in the Employment Act. Nor do I intend to dwell on particular instances of intimidation and disorder on the picket line or of intolerance and inflexibility in the application of closed shop agreements. These are still fresh in our minds. But that is just the backcloth to our debate today, as it was to our debate on the Employment Bill. Those are the abuses of industrial power which we tackled in the Employment Act and they are the focus of the draft codes of practice which we are debating today.
When we were debating the Employment Bill, I explained the Government's view of the relationship between law and guidance on good practice. I made it clear then that we believe that both are essential: indeed, that they are complementary. In the first place, we believe that it is essential for orderly industrial relations that there should be the right framework of law. It is no use relying on voluntary guidance alone to get rid of abuses if the law is seen to condone those abuses and is powerless to help those who suffer from them.
But getting the law right does not, we believe, remove the need for guidance on good practice over a wide range of day-to-day industrial relations issues. On the contrary, the law can help to change attitudes and modify behaviour but by itself it will never bring about the far-reaching changes in the procedures and institutions of collective bargaining which we all know are essential if there is to be any improvement in our industrial perormance. We have never accepted—as the leaders of the TUC like to suggest—that there is a kind of Gresham's Law operating in industrial relations whereby the so-called "bad money" of the law must always drive out the "good money" of practical guidance. In our view, that is not the case.
Of course, on many issues the evolution of good practice must be a matter for management and trade unions in their day-to-day dealings. But on some issues it has always been recognised that there is an important—and necessary—role for a formal, authoritative statement of what constitutes good practice throughout the whole of industry and employment. The legislation introduced by the previous Government conferred a code-making power on ACAS under which it issued a code of disciplinary procedures. It also placed a duty on ACAS to produce codes on time off for trade union duties and disclosure of information. The last Government did not attempt to tackle the much more difficult issues of picketing and the closed shop. But they did succeed in prising guides on both these subjects from the TUC in the winter of 1979. Belated and, in our view, ineffective though they were, those guides were an implicit acknowledgement—on the part of both the then Government and the TUC—of the concern that the abuse of industrial power on the picket line and in the closed shop had created in the public mind. We welcomed them at that time as an important first step.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment has always made it clear that he is ready to discuss the possibility of drawing up voluntary guidance with the TUC and CBI. But voluntary guidance has to be effective and comprehensive. In their present form the TUC guides meet neither of these tests. And the TUC have made it
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clear that they are unwilling at this stage to revise their guides to take account of the provisions of the Employment Act. It was against that eventuality that the Act conferred on the Secretary of State the power to draw up codes of practice and to present them to Parliament for approval. In the absence of effective and comprehensive voluntary guidance, the Secretary of State has had no alternative but to exercise this power.
As I explained in our debates on the Bill, this power is identical with that conferred on ACAS by Section 6 of the Employment Protection Act 1975. Section 3 of the Employment Act empowers the Secretary of State to "issue Codes of Practice containing such practical guidance as he thinks fit for the purpose of promoting the improvement of industrial relations." Section 3 also lays down the procedure for the Secretary of State to follow in drawing up such codes. In accordance with that procedure the Secretary of State invited ACAS to contribute to the drafting of the codes and again, later, to comment on the draft codes when they were published for consultation. ACAS were not able to accept either invitation. Of course it was always likely that a body such as ACAS which represents both the TUC and the CBI would find it extremely difficult, and in the event impossible, to produce agreed guidance on issues as difficult as the closed shop or picketing. That is why the Employment Act provides a code-making power for the Secretary of State and not for ACAS.
My right honourable friend published draft codes of practice for consultation on 5th August. More than 70 organisations and individuals have submitted their comments. The overwhelming majority have given a warm welcome both to the principle of codes of practice on picketing and the closed shop and to the broad shape of the actual draft codes. They are in no doubt that guidance of the kind the codes contain is necessary and valuable for everyone concerned in industry.
Before I turn to the detailed provisions of the draft codes may I say a few words about their purpose and their legal status. It is important that there should be no misunderstanding about either. First, the purpose of the codes. This is made clear in Section 3 of the Employment Act. It

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refers specifically to practical guidance "for the purpose of promoting the improvement of industrial relations". In other words the codes provide guidance for management and trade unions, and for employers and employees. In these draft codes that guidance is of two kinds: an explanation of the law as it affects picketing and the closed shop and guidance on good industrial relations practice. The same is true of the TUC guides and of the oldest code of practice in our system: the Highway Code.
An explanation of the law is an essential element in these codes for two main reasons: the Employment Act has made major changes in statute law which must be clearly understood by everyone concerned. Secondly, a great deal of the law which affects picketing and the closed shop is not set down in statute. It consists of common law rights and duties which have evolved through case law. We must face the facts—as did the TUC in their guides—that there is a great deal of misunderstanding and ignorance about, for example, the relationship of picketing to the criminal law. No code of practice would be complete if it failed to explain this.
The codes explain the law in layman's terms. But they are not part of the law and they do not extend the ambit of the law. It is the job of the courts and tribunals to interpret and apply the law: that is made clear in paragraph 4 of the introduction to each code. It is not the job of the courts or of the police to enforce the codes. The codes do what the Act says they must do: they give guidance for the improvement of industrial relations. They are addressed to those who are directly concerned in industry with the problems of the closed shop and picketing.
This brings me to the second general point: the legal status of the codes. Again this is set out in the Act. Subsection (8) of Section 6 says three things: first, the codes are admissible in evidence before courts and tribunals; secondly, they are to be taken into account when a court or tribunal thinks they are relevant to the proceedings before it. It is up to the court to decide the weight to be attached to the code or a particular provision of the code in the same way that it must decide the relevance and value of any
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evidence which is brought before it; thirdly and perhaps most important, no part of the code of itself makes a person liable to legal proceedings: this means that a person does not simply by virtue of ignoring the codes become liable for criminal or civil proceedings.
These powers are closely modelled on those in previous legislation. The earliest precedent is the Road Traffic Act 1930 under which the Highway Code has operated for nearly 50 years. More recent precedents are Section 4 of the Industrial Relations Act 1971 which relates to the 1972 Code of Industrial Relations Practice, and Section 6 of the Employment Protection Act 1975 which defines the legal status of the ACAS codes on disciplinary procedures, time off for trade union duties and disclosure of information. The wording of Section 3 of the Employment Act is identical with that in the 1971 and 1975 Acts. The codes prepared under the 1971 and 1975 Acts are of course still in operation. There is no difference in legal status or effect between these draft codes and other codes produced under existing statutory powers, some of them going back as much as 50 years.
May I turn now to the detailed provisions of the picketing code. Your Lordships will see that Sections B, C and D set out guidance on the civil and criminal law and on the role of the police in enforcing the law. The remaining sections provide guidance on good practice. I should point out that the draft codes before us today distinguish clearly between explanation of the law and guidance on good practice. The first drafts were criticised for not making this important distinction sufficiently clear. We have accepted that criticism. We have made a number of changes to the text where there may have been some ambiguity, and paragraph 4 of the introduction identifies those sections of the code which are concerned with the law and those which are concerned with good practice. The same is true of the closed shop code.
Much of the guidance on good practice in the picketing code is drawn directly from the TUC guide and other trade union guidance; for instance, the T and GWU code of 1979. In particular the sections on the organisation of picketing

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and essential supplies and services draw heavily on existing trade union guidance. I make no apology for this. On the contrary, it seems to us to underline the fact that these codes are firmly based on existing good practice.
The question of putting a limit on the number of pickets has attracted special attention because of the great public concern in recent years sbout mass picketing. As paragraph 30 points out, the purpose of mass picketing is not peaceful persuasion but obstruction and even intimidation and it can so easily spill over into violence. As such it is and always has been unlawful and the police have wide powers to deal with it. It is well established in law that the police have discretion to limit the number of pickets if they have reason to fear a breach of the peace. Indeed it was established in the case of Piddington v Bates in 1960 that the police were right in that case to restrict the picket line to two people. The code spells all this out in plain terms.
But the Government believe that the code must go further than describing the law as it affects mass picketing. That is why paragraph 31 of the draft code says that
"pickets and their organisers should ensure that in general the number of pickets does not exceed six at any entrance to a workplace".
It is very important that there should be no misunderstanding about this. The figure of six is not a fixed or rigid limit; nor is it a legal limit. No code of practice could impose a legal limit, for the reasons I have already explained. Nor is a legal limit necessary or desirable. It would cut across and circumscribe the discretion of the police to limit the number of pickets. No one wishes to see that. In response to a suggestion from the Association of Chief Police Officers we have also amended paragraph 28 to emphasise that the code does not affect the discretion of the police in any way whatsoever.
The limit of six is what it says it is: guidance to pickets and their organisers. Whenever the police are present on a picket line, the pickets should seek their directions as to how many people there should be on the picket line and where they should stand. But as we all know, the police are not always present at picket lines. In these circumstances, we believe it is essential that the code should give
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pickets definite guidance on numbers. We think that six should normally be sufficient to enable pickets to carry out effectively the lawful purpose of peaceful picketing at the typical factory gate or site entrance. This has been confirmed by the consultations we have held. The vast majority of those who commented on the consultative draft welcomed and supported the limit of six.
Turning now to the closed shop code, there are, again, two elements in the guidance it provides: the law and good practice and, again, these are clearly distinguished. Section B explains the legal rights of individuals affected by closed shops. These include the new statutory protections given by the 1980 Act as well as existing common law rights which are not affected by the Act. The remaining sections contain practical guidance on a range of issues. For instance, Section D gives guidance on the treatment of members and applicants by trade unions. Paragraphs 48 to 53 deal with union rules and procedures for handling admissions, and with discipline. In this we have drawn very much on the principles adopted by the TUC and I believe this section meets the concern expressed during debates on the Employment Bill that the Act would undermine the Bridlington Agreement. If this guidance is followed, it will not.
One of the most objectionable aspects of the closed shop is its use—through the implicit threat of expulsion and subsequent loss of job—as a means of compelling people to take industrial action. This is dealt with in paragraphs 54 and 55. Here, again, we have modified the consultative draft in the light of the views we received. Many employers' organisations, including the CBI and the EEF, as well as trade unions argued that the guidance on expulsion from a union for crossing a picket line in the consultative draft might have undermined trade union authority. We have listened and have amended this guidance so that it does not apply in the case of disciplinary action taken against a union member for crossing a picket authorised by his own union at his own place of work. However, it is the guidance in Section C on the periodic review of existing closed shops which has occasioned most comment. Some people have suggested that more precise and

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rigid provisions should be imposed, either by statute or by specifying in the code exactly how often closed shop agreements should be reviewed. Others—a much larger number, including the CBI, the EEF, the Institute of Personnel Management and a number of major industrial companies—were concerned that the guidance in the code on the subject was too inflexible. But the need for some guidance in this area was generally recognised. The division of opinion on what the nature of the guidance should be was reflected in the comments of the CBI, who suggested a number of amendments to the relevant section of the code to make it more generally acceptable. Again, we have listened and we have accepted most of these suggestions and paragraph 43 of the revised code has been amended accordingly.
But we believe that the code would be hopelessly incomplete if it gave no guidance at all on the need to review existing closed shop agreements. It is no more than normal good practice for managements and unions to review existing agreements, particularly if there is evidence that they are out of date or not working properly. In this respect, closed shop agreements surely are no different from any others. But since they may affect the jobs and livelihoods of individual employees, it is all the more important that they should continue only if they have the support of a majority of the employees they cover. We believe, therefore, that it is essential that they be reviewed periodically to take account of changing circumstances. That is what the code says.
The final section of the closed shop code concerns the difficult area of the freedom of the press. The 1976 Act included a provision for a press charter which would give guidance on matters relating to the freedom of the press, including the application of closed shop agreements to journalists. In the event, the previous Government did not bring forward a draft charter for Parliament to consider. There were talks among the parties in the industry, under the chairmanship of Lord Pearce, which produced some ideas for a press charter. These ideas are reflected in this section of the draft code. We see no need for both. So my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, subject to approval of the closed shop code by both
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Houses, now proposes to use the power conferred on him by the 1980 Act to proceed to repeal the requirement to produce a press charter.
I trust it is clear from what I have said that we have listened very carefully to the views put to us during the consultative period. We have modified the draft codes in response to those views and I believe that the codes are better for the changes we have made. We are encouraged by the wide support for the codes evident from our consultations. These codes are based firmly on existing best practice. They do not seek to impose impossible new standards of behaviour. They set out practical and realistic guidelines which are fully in line with the traditional practice of responsible trade unions and enlightened employers. I believe that they can make a very important contribution to good industrial relations in this country for a very long time to come. I commend them to your Lordships.
Moved, That the draft code of practice laid before the House on 5th November be approved.—(The Earl of Gowrie.)
3.48 p.m.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, as far as is possible, I always like to agree with the noble Earl when I can, and I should like to start by agreeing with him in deciding to take these two codes together, though moving first of all the picketing code, because they do cover a very common area; in fact, their approach is identical and I think it is right that we should have a general debate about them. I agree also that we are not here to rehearse the arguments which we rehearsed some time ago about the Employment Act 1980. We are prepared to leave that Act to heaven and see what comes about.
We are also not here to argue a general case—I agree with what the noble Earl said about this—about codes of practice and the case for codes of practice. We on this side of the House accept the role of codes of practice much in the way the noble Earl explained them. As he said, excellent codes of practice were issued, for example, in relation to the Health and Safety at Work Act, and excellent codes of practice were issued by ACAS concerning disciplinary provisions, time off for trade union duties, and so on.

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Indeed, I am perfectly prepared to say that by far the best thing about the Industrial Relations Act 1971, that lamentable and unlamented provision, was the code of practice. The code of practice in the 1971 Act was so reasonable and so sensible that the late Labour Government did not bother to get rid of it. So we are not against codes of practice; and, when one is talking about codes of practice, we are not against people raising the question of analogies with the Highway Code. I shall return to the question of analogies with the Highway Code.
The Secretary of State for Employment in another place is fond of drawing analogies between his codes and the Highway Code. Would that they were apposite, because the purpose of codes of practice is really three. Their first purpose is to give ordinary men in the area in which they are affected simple, fair and balanced summaries of the law. That could be said about all the previous codes of practice until this time. It could certainly be said about the 1971 Industrial Relations code of practice, but I suggest that it cannot be said of either of these codes.
The second purpose of codes of practice is to give reasonable interpretations for ordinary men and women of certain general concepts and terms that always appear in Acts of Parliament to help them as to what those general terms might mean. That has been so of all previous codes of practice. One of the really remarkable things about this code of practice is that, contrary to what we were told many times both in this House and in another place from the Benches opposite—that we would be given interpretations of contentious and difficult phrases—there is virtually nothing in either of these codes to define, for example, what "deep personal convictions" is intended to mean, and that goes for other aspects and difficult phrases. Thus, the second purpose of a code of practice, which has been carried out in all other codes of practice, is not carried out in either of these.
The third—in some ways I agree with the noble Earl here—the most important aim of codes of practice, is to give certain non-legal guidelines based on good practice or common sense. That was certainly the case of codes of practice issued
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by the previous Government. It is undoubtedly and most extremely the case in relation to the Highway Code, which we are always having quoted as an example, but when it comes to saying that these codes of practice give us good practice and common sense which most ordinary people on both sides of industry would accept as uncontentious and incontrovertible, I just do not understand how anybody could stand before your Lordships' House and say that the foolish, impractical and in some ways presumptuous provisions in both of these codes of practice can come under any of those headings.
It is, of course, because of that that whereas previous codes of practice, such as the code of practice on disability provisions and trade union facilities, were passed through and emerged from the ACAS Council, the members of that council, representing practical men and women of industry, said, "We want nothing to do with these codes of practice". That is why the British Institute of Management are worried about many of their aspects. It is why the House of Commons Select Committee are equally worried and think they should have had more consultation about the details of the content of these codes. It is also why the TUC is extremely worried about both these codes.
The noble Earl said that certain provisions in and the general drift of the picketing code—I do not think I am being unfair to him by saying that he was suggesting this—were in support of certain views of the TUC. The picketing code supports what the TUC wants (if I may paraphrase the words of Lenin) as the rope supports a hanging man. To suggest that these codes, whatever they may be, have the support of the trade union movement would be misrepresentation, if one could believe that anybody would take that seriously.
Let us, then, briefly go through three or four of the main headings under which one could evaluate this code; first, the law. What a code should do in relation to the law, as I said, is to give simple, fair and balanced summaries of the law. Let us consider the picketing code, paragraph 12 of which includes an unusually restrictive definition of "at or near a place of work" which would not be acceptable to many Labour lawyers.

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Paragraph 15 of that code gives a narrow definition of the right of a trade union official on a picket which does not include a proper, I would say, interpretation of his rights under Section 17(5)(b). Paragraph 24 of the picketing code does not contain all the potential criminal offences which a picketer commits; it is very queer that all those offences are not listed. For example, the ancient 1875 offence of watching and besetting is not set out in the code. And strangest of all, the very recent and serious offence of unlawful assembly, which the Shrewsbury picketers committed, for some reason does not find its way into this code of practice.
On page 28, appears a monstrous quotation, and the noble Earl mentioned it, from Piddington v. Bates as the measure of picketing numbers. I do not think this is a matter of controversy; indeed, I believe almost any reputable Labour lawyer would say that Piddington v. Bates is a very extreme case and a very bad guide. Yet it is the central part of the interpretation of picketing numbers. I could bore the House with many other examples, but I pass on to the question of the closed shop. Paragraph 9 of the code of practice on the closed shop requires the new subsection (d) to deal with the provisions of Section 7(3) C(b) because the latter provisions are imperfectly summarised in the footnote, but for some reason there is no subsection (d) in the closed shop picketing code.
Paragraph 13 of the picketing code makes no mention—although this has been mentioned time and again in this House—of the problem for trade unions of lapsing. As a result of the Employment Act 1980 (we tried to point out the consequences of this from this side of the House) trade unions are now in great legal danger if they treat lapsing as lapsing and not as expulsion or exclusion, which is what it now legally is. One would have thought that could have found its way into this code of practice, but there is no guidance. Indeed, there is no guidance on the central problem which the Government seem quite unable to take on board; namely, the problem of the conflict of jurisdiction between common law provisions and the statute. Under the common law, trade unions are at risk if they expel people contrary to their rules, yet under
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statute law they may, in order to carry out the decisions of a tribunal, have to expel people contrary to their rules. This was pointed out time and again from this Dispatch Box, and we were told that it would be cleared up in the code, yet not one word in this code deals with this central problem.
Paragaph 18 of the closed shop code is equally vague about certain other matters, and there is the still more notorious paragraph 46 which suggests that the pre-entry closed shop may infringe the right to work. There is no respectable jurisdiction or decision which suggests that is so. It is perfectly true that there are a number of obiter from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, but the general drift of judicial opinion is that there is no right to work and nothing in the Employment Act 1980 which in any way bears upon pre-entry closed shops as against post-entry closed shops, yet once again there is the insinuation—the totally unjustifiable insinuation—that appears in this code of practice that there is something peculiarly unlawful about the pre-entry closed shop.
In all these ways, for the first time we have here two codes of practice which are extremely partisan, and always in the same direction, in the way they interpret the law of this country. But that is only the beginning because, secondly, there is an even worse bias in what these codes leave out. In paragraphs 20 and 21 of the picketing code and in paragraphs 13 and 18 of the closed shop code the rights of non-unionists or third parties—anyone who has a right under the Act—to take action, for example, for unlawful dismissal, or against a trade union, are spelled out in considerable detail; it is perfectly fair, perfectly reasonable.
But one looks in vain in the code of practice for similarly detailed statements of the rights of the picketer. The code does not really address itself to the problem of how a picketer who wants to work within the law can actually work within it. It does not address itself to the problem that in fact the closed shop is still lawful in the sense that the Government in their wisdom have not decided to make the closed shop unlawful; they have decided that it is actionable in the sense that if someone is dismissed unfairly, he can receive compensation. But the objective of the closed shop is not unlawful

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in that sense. No explanation is given of how one can lawfully exlude non-unionists. Why?—because of course this code of practice, unlike the code of practice about road safety, is not interested in ascribing rights to all parties. The great thing about the Highway Code is that it states what pedestrians should do, what bicyclists should do, what drivers should do. It states the responsibilities and rights of all the parties, equally.
But this code of practice gives far more to the rights and privileges of non-unionists and "scabs" and people who want to walk across picket lines. People who want lawfully to carry out their trade union functions will not find their rights spelled out in the code to anything like the same extent because the Government do not really believe that picketing is a legitimate activity even within the ambit of the law. As is stated at the beginning of the code of practice on the closed shop, the Government believe that the closed shop in all its forms really ought to be unlawful anyway. So the code is not balanced in the sense of what it leaves out.
Let us come to what the noble Earl said, in a way quite rightly, was the main area of the code: the non-legal guidelines, the code of good practice, the analogy which has been made many times, and was made again today, with the Highway Code. This is as though the Highway Code was written by a drunken driver in favour of pedestrians, or as though the Highway Code was written by a pedestrian who still believes that cars should go at five miles an hour, preceded by a man with a red flag. This is not a balanced set of guidelines. These are guidelines written from one narrow, bigoted point of view.
That was of course the view of the House of Commons all-party committee. That is what the committee said in particular about balance. The committee said that the provisions about balance in relation to the closed shop would worsen industrial relations. The committee said that these provisions should be deleted, that there should not be a regular review of closed shop agreements, as indeed the CBI and the BIM have said about these aspects of the codes. Indeed, the House of Commons Select Committee said in its recent report:
"These codes are so complicated and controversial that the normal statutory instrument
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procedure, under which the House would be called on to approve them, without amendment, after one and a half hours' debate late at night is quite inappropriate".
Yet we are being presented with them, late at night, or early in the afternoon, in a form in which they cannot be amended.
The fact is that the advice is explicable only on two assumptions. Either it is written by people who are totally ignorant of the facts of shop-floor life; or, secondly,—and of course these two alternatives are not mutually exclusive—it is part of internal negotiations in the Cabinet. I believe that the only way to explain the codes and the fact that we have all kinds of misrepresentations of the legal position is that they are indeed part or internal negotiations in the Cabinet. One can only assume that when the 1980 Employment Act was going through the Cabinet it would have been much worse than it is had it not been for the fact that at certain crucial moments the Secretary of State was able to say, "Don't put it in the Act; put it in the code". Of course, that is why in Congress House it is always said, "He wrote the Act; she wrote the code"—and it looks like it.
Let us, for example, go through the advice that we are given on picketing. Section F of the advice on picketing lists a variety of functions which a trade union official should carry out on the picket line. I would ask noble Lords to read Section F. The trade union official emerges as a cross between a boy scout commander and a friendly regimental sergeant-major. He must organise pickets, maintain close contact with the police, ensure that pickets understand the law—I wonder whether noble Lords have ever pictured themselves walking up and down a picket line explaining the 1980 Employment Act to pickets. The union official must be responsible for distributing badges and armbands. He must:
"ensure that employees from other places of work do not join the picket line and that any offers of support on the picket line from outsiders are refused".
That sentence alone indicates that noble Lords opposite have not the slightest idea of the relationship between trade union officers and their members in a picket situation. The trade union official must remain in close contact with virtually everybody—with the union office, with the offices of other unions, with the police,

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with his own members; and if he leaves the picket line for five minutes, he must tell everybody where he is going and when he will be coming back.
That is a selection of functions for people who happen to go on to picket lines, and the net consequence will be to discourage any trade union officer and any shop steward from being seen within five miles of a picket line, especially since it is unclear that Section F—Organisation of Picketing—is in fact simply an expression of the prejudices and hopes of the Government and has nothing to do with the law.
Alternatively let us take Section G—another area which has nothing to do with the law—which spells out the role of picketers in relation to essential supplies and services. These are supposed to be commonsense provisions which suggest that:
"pickets should take very great care to ensure that their activities do not cause distress, hardship or inconvenience to members of the public …".
The aim of the picket is to make the strike effective. The aim of the picket is to deny the employer access to his customers. His customers are members of the public. If one took that paragraph of the code seriously, there would not be any point in picketing at all.
We could go on to the closed shop code, in which there is a quite lunatic list of 30 or so conditions which one ought to think about before one even begins to negotiate a closed shop. There are provisions for obtaining the view of one's employer's association, for considering the interests of specialist groups, for excluding certain groups, such as personnel—for no reason that is given. There are also provisions for suggesting secret ballots and for suggesting that if there are secret ballots, there should be votes of more than 80 per cent. None of those provisions has any legal basis whatever.
There are proposals for periodic reviews for trifling revisions in the scope of the bargaining union. These are in fact invitations to prevaricate. They are invitations to employers under any circumstances to set out a whole series of conditions as to why they should not negotiate closed shops. If the Government really believe all those things, they
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should be put in the law. They should not be put in codes of practice. This is law by cowardice. It is suggesting that points that are put forward in some form as advice should in some way be taken seriously by trade unionists and employers, and even in some unspecified way by industrial tribunals in considering cases that come before them arising from the 1980 Employment Act.
That brings me, finally, to the most important objection. The noble Earl was kind enough to say that, as a result of representations made by myself and others, the dreadful mishmash of law and opinion, of which the first draft of the codes consisted, had in fact been corrected and that now it was quite clear that we have law in one place and opinion in another. Would that it were, my Lords! What is clear is that in the introduction to both the codes we are told where the law is. We are told, for example, that the law is in Sections C, D and E of one of the codes and Section B of the other code. The implication is that there is no law anywhere else. But, of course, it is not true. In fact, if you go through the picketing code, the secondary action section is a mixture of law and opinion. The organisation section, although it is in fact a section which is opinion, not law, is sandwiched between two legal sections.
If you take the closed shop code, the situation is much worse. Paragraph 20 of the code makes a legal point—there is no obligation on employers to recognise closed shops. Paragraph 30 makes a non-legal point; it is pure advice. Paragraph 31 makes a legal point—the statutory right of objectors. They are all in one section. Paragraph 32 makes a non-legal point. Paragraph 33 makes a legal point about ballots. Paragraph 34 is not law at all. One could go on. This remains a monstrous mixture of law and prejudice, and just to put at the beginning of the code the fact that you are going to separate things off does not deal with the problem.
Therefore, I want to finish by asking the Government yet again a number of specific questions, and I hope that the noble Earl will try to answer some of them. I have not given him notice of any of them because ever since these codes were published these questions have been asked by me and other people in publica-

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tions, in the representations of the Trades Union Congress and in evidence to the Select Committee in another place. Therefore the noble Earl cannot say he does not know them. First, why not, even now, take these dreadful things away and separate law from opinion? If the noble Earl does not know how to do it, I will do it for him. Secondly, if you want acceptance, if you want agreement, why not—in heaven's name, why not—negotiate the legal sections of this code with the Trades Union Congress? You will not get acceptance of the advice, but why not have agreed legal summaries on the basis of some of the points I raised, where I assure the noble Earl the TUC's lawyers would say they do not agree with him?
Thirdly, why not have definitions of some of these crucial phrases, of which we were told in debates we were going to get definitions? Why is there no comprehensive definition of what "unreasonable exclusion" is going to mean? It would help trade unions. Why is there no definition of "deeply-held personal conviction"? The only definition we have—and we are told by our legal friends that it does not help—is that given by the Lord Chancellor. The Lord Chancellor, speaking in this House from the Woolsack, actually told us that "conscientious objection" or "deeply-held personal conviction" could include an objection to being a member of a union that was affiliated to the Labour Party; but we are told by our legal friends that that does not mean anything because he was not speaking in his judicial capacity. Why do not the Government, even at this late stage, put some of these things in the code?
Finally, surely they could do something about this advice. Some of this advice could be modified. Do they really expect lawyers, do they really expect judges, to take this advice into account? This would be a very strange doctrine. Let me give just one example—the advice about essential services and picketing. There is nothing in English law which says that picketing is lawful or unlawful according to what is being carried through the gates. It could be blocks of ice or atom bombs. What the law says is that what matters is who you are, whether you are entitled to be there, what you are doing and whether or not you are merely peacefully
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persuading. That is what the law says. Are the Government suggesting that in some way all this stuff about essential services should become a new, devious definition of "obstruction"? That would be monstrous. Let the Government say that they do not mean that. Let them say that they do not expect the courts to take that aspect into account. Unless they can give us assurances on all these matters, I ask must the House to oppose both these codes.
4.15 p.m.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, for the way in which he has summarised so clearly the main provisions of this code. In considering the Motions, as has already, I think, been recognised, there seem to be two main points for discussion. One is the principle as to whether it is appropriate to have codes of this kind at all in the industrial relations field, and the other is whether these particular codes, in their present form, are adequate for the purpose of improving industrial relations—the purpose set out, as the noble Earl reminded us, in Clause 3 of the Employment Act.
As to the basic principle, first in this field, in my opinion, would be agreed codes of practice. On a number of occasions in this House I have advocated more of these in the industrial relations field, more particularly two years ago, when I asked the Government whether they would consult with other interested parties with a view to drawing up an agreed code of practice aimed at encouraging the establishment throughout British industry of negotiating procedures under which disputes concerning agreements already entered into would be settled by arbitration rather than by industrial action. At the time there was a Labour Government in office. There is now a Conservative Government, but nothing has been done in that direction.
The next best thing to agreed codes, in my view, would be guidance from the Government having the support of the trade union movement, as in the guides which formed annexes, as has been said, to the joint Labour Government/Trades Union Congress statement of February 1979. To the best of my knowledge, however, employers were not invited to

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share in the preparation of those guides, and, in the time between their publication and the demise, two or three months later, of the Labour Government, little attention appeared to be paid to them. Unlike the codes that we are discussing today, those guides did not even stem from an Act of Parliament.
So we are left with the kind of codes that are now before us, and I do not think it can reasonably be said—indeed, I am glad that it has not been said—that there has been inadequate consultation between the Secretary of State and interested parties in the three months since the draft codes were published in their original form. Indeed, on a number of points he has acted, as the noble Earl has told us, on the representations made to him by employers, by trade unions, by the police and by the Select Committee on Employment in another place. It is my understanding, notwithstanding what I understood the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, to say, that parts at least of the code on picketing seem to have been taken almost unchanged from the TUC guidance of last year.
There are precedents for codes of this kind. I shall not dwell on them, because the point has already been made in the Industrial Relations Act of the Conservative Government in 1971, and it was re-enacted in the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 and in the Employment Protection Act 1975; and in those acts, as has been said, the codes were given precisely the same status in relation to the law as those that are now before us.
When the principle of whether there should be codes such as these was discussed at the Committee stage of the Employment Bill a few months ago, we on these Benches supported the concept, which we saw as being even-handed in the sense that trade union members, equally with employers, could rely on them in evidence. Specifically in relation to the closed shop, I then expressed the view that the code of practice promised by the Secretary of State on this subject would deal better than would the law with the question of how best to review the level of support for the existing closed shop agreements; and that is one of the things that the second of the two draft codes before us seeks to do. In the absence of agreement between the Govern-
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ment, employers and trade unions, codes of practice issued by the Secretary of State (as these have been) after due consultation with the other interests involved are better than nothing. I hope that they may be viewed for what they appear to be—simply guides as to orderly practice to be followed. In that belief, anyway, we on these Benches will continue to give our support to the Government on the basic principle involved.
If I may turn to the content of the codes themselves, here my task is a little less straightforward because we are asked to approve each code as a whole and we are debating them together. I make no complaint about that; it is for the convenience of the House, as the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, has already indicated, that we should do so. But for that reason it is not possible to do more than comment briefly on some of the main points involved. First, I welcome on a general point the fact that in their revised form it is now at least somewhat plainer than in the original draft what must and what may be done.
Regarding the code on picketing, in general I would say that that has the support of my noble friends and myself. I question whether it is wise in Section 31, to seek to limit to six the number of pickets at any entrance to a work place. I wonder whether it might not have been better to adhere to the advice offered in the code which was published at an earlier stage by the Industrial Society, a widely respected and independent body, supported by both employers and trade unions, that the number of pickets should be "reasonable". I say this not because I envisage circumstances in which more than six people would normally be needed peacefully to persuade others to stay outside a factory gate, but because in the present highly charged industrial and political atmosphere I have a certain fear that this particular provision may have the opposite effect to that intended in encouraging militants to vie with each other to be the seventh man. I wonder whether it might not have been better simply to leave to the police the matter of determining in a particular place whether the number of pickets is likely to lead to a breach of the peace and, subsequently, to the court or to the industrial tribunal a decision as to whether a number is reasonable.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. It is left to the police. This is simply guidance to what would be the normal, sensible procedure; but it is utterly at the discretion of the police as to what the number should be.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, I think that that makes me feel all the more doubtful as to the wisdom of including a number so precise as six. But I am giving expression to a doubt; I am not making an assertion; and it may be that when the noble Earl comes to give a considered reply at the end of this debate he will be able to relieve me more than he has so far done as to that doubt.
Also I have some sympathy with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, in relation to this same Section 31 on picketing, and I wonder there too whether employment of the word "ensure" is quite the happiest that might have been used, where it is stated:
"Accordingly pickets and their organisers should ensure that in general the number of pickets does not exceed six".
I wonder if some word rather less compulsive as a burden on the pickets as opposed to the police might not have been better in that case.
The only other specific comment that I have to make on picketing relates to Section 55 on the code of practice on the closed shop. Here I welcome the fact that the Government are no longer seeking in the case of official disputes, as the noble Earl has made plain, to limit the freedom of trade unions to take disciplinary action against members crossing picket lines. In the light of the new remedies available under the Act for people unfairly dismissed, it is my view that it is best not to seek at this stage further to diminish the authority of the trade unions; and so I welcome that provision in the code. As I have said—and I went out of my way to say it—at the Second Reading of the Bill, the trade unions are with us whether we like it or not and our industrial performance can be improved only with the co-operation of their members.
As regards the closed shop, there is really not much for me to say. I made it plain in our discussions on the Employment Bill itself that the whole concept is repellent to those of us on these Benches
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as being illiberal in principle On the other hand, at the Committee stage I expressed the view that progress in dealng with this and with other industrial relations problems was more likely to be made through the operation of codes of practice than by the law; and the code on the closed shop which was then promised is now being discussed by us.
Of course, Liberals welcome the emphasis placed in Section 35 of the code on the closed shop on the point that 80 per cent. of the workforce should be only the minimum required to support the establishment of a closed shop and that an employer should now be able to opt for a higher percentage being in favour before he agrees to such a radical change in the working conditions of his employees. It is not so much my political allegiance as my former industrial experience that causes me also to welcome the recognition in Section 42 of the revised code that, in calling in its original form for regular reviews of existing closed-shop agreements, the code was too restrictive and might have done more harm than good to industrial relations. Although the change may not seem to be all that substantial, I think that the insertion of the words:
"Reviews should take place every few years",
and that closed shop agreements should be subject to periodic review, is for that reason to be supported.
For the rest, these codes have our broad support. I am glad that they are being debated in this Session of Parliament, even though it is on the last day, so that in the new Session management and employees down the line—freed I fervently hope from further controversial legislation in the industrial relations field—again have the opportunity to work more constructively together.
There is one more matter I want to raise and I have hesitated about whether to refer to it. I have decided to do so partly at least in view of what it was that the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, had to say. May I add that I am here not making any value judgment. No more than any other political action can codes of practice of this kind do anything positively to solve our industrial relations problem. But there is one political act that it is within the power of politicians to carry out that would in my view do more than any other action to improve our industrial relations

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and performance. It would produce a stability and a continuity of policy that many of our international competitors enjoy and we do not. That would be to provide this country with a more representative parliamentary election system and thus ensure, among other things, that in future contradictory laws do not continue to be enacted in the industrial relations field, and that those laws which are enacted stick, and stick because they demonstrably have the support of a majority of the people.
I suggest that it is highly significant that a number of the most respected Members of the Benches opposite, who have risen to be chairmen of their companies, are now advocates of such a development. I earnestly hope that many more people, of all political parties and of none, who long for some consensus and consistency of industrial and, for that matter, of economic policy, will come together on this point while there is still time.
I have said that deliberately not just as a spokesman of the Liberal party but from long experience of industrial relations in practice. If there are some who feel that it has nothing to do with codes of practice on picketing and the closed shop, I do not doubt that there are many more hearing or reading about this debate who will think that that matter is highly relevant to our discussions.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether he still agrees that the Government gave sufficient time to consider the provisions of these codes in the light of the views of the House of Commons Select Committee on Employment? That committee said:
"We consider that the consultation procedure adopted by the Secretary of State was unsatisfactory, that he published the draft codes three days before the House rose and called for comments no later than a date 17 days before the House was due to resume. This shows scant regard for the views of Parliament".
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, I do not want to enter into a "cut and thrust" with the noble Lord about that. It is a matter of opinion. I respect the opinion of others; I have offered mine and I see no reason to change it.
4.35 p.m.
Lord COTTESLOE: My Lords, I will not detain the House for more than a few moments. These codes of practice are not and cannot be perfect. We may think that they could be improved, some of us in one way, some in another; but we have no power to amend them. Perhaps it is just as well, thinking back over the past week or 10 days, that we have not. We have only the options of accepting them or rejecting them as they stand. It is a matter of these codes or no codes. I hope, even if those on the Opposition Benches choose to divide the House against accepting them, that the House will accept them by a massive and decisive majority.
These codes and the Acts to which they are referred, have been represented as being an attack on the trade unions. They are of course nothing of the sort. As we all know, sections of the trade unions have in recent years been led to use their great power as an instrument in some cases of tyranny and of intimidation in matters of picketing and of the closed shop. I need not quote examples. We have only to think of Grunwick and the coach loads of flying pickets brought down from Yorkshire to the Isle of Grain. There are many instances.
Such a use of power as an instrument of tyranny to prevent by intimidation and obstruction law-abiding citizens from going about their business is, as I believe, something deeply repugnant to the great mass of the general public, and indeed to the great majority of trade unionists in this country. It is to do something to restrain this irresponsible abuse of power that these codes of practice and the Employment Act itself have been brought forward.
It must be in the interests of the trade unions themselves, of their leaders and of their members alike, that they should be encouraged instead of abusing their great power and influence by applying them as instruments of tyranny to apply them as they can and should do towards increasing industrial productivity and efficiency, and so towards creating employment, prosperity and wealth so that the whole nation—trade unionists and non-trade unionists alike—may reap the benefits. I hope profoundly that the Employment Act,

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with these codes of practice, may be viewed in this light and may be—as they certainly should be if they are properly used—a valuable influence in helping to rebuild the industrial prosperity of our nation that has been in recent years so sadly depleted.
4.38 p.m.
Viscount DE L'ISLE: My Lords, may I make a short intervention simply on the code of practice on the closed shop. In the preliminary draft which the Employment Secretary issued some months ago he included this statement regarding the closed shop:
"The Government remain opposed to the principle underlying it. That people should be required to join a union as a condition of getting or holding a job runs contrary to the traditions of personal liberty in this country. It is one thing for a union to maximise its membership by voluntary means. What is objectionable is to enforce membership by means of a closed shop. Closed shops damage the image of trade unionism itself".
I find myself in profound agreement with this, as did the noble Lord who spoke from the Liberal Benches.
This is not an occasion on which to debate principles. The Employment Act 1980 is now law and the codes of practice issued under that Act are part of the law of the land. They can either be accepted or rejected. The question I ask is: will these codes and particularly the code on the closed shop tend to emphasise the individual rights and will they also tend to improve industrial relations? I think the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, would agree if I said that trade union relations are governed by a peculiar mixture of statute law, common law, half-law, as these codes are, precedent and industrial muscle. These reflect the differences in philosophies and attitudes between political parties and between employers and employees, trade unions, employers' organisations and the differing classes of employee.
I do not doubt the genuine intention of Her Majesty's Government to improve and clarify the rights and duties of all those engaged in industry and commerce in relation to collective bargaining; but, lacking constitutional protection for individual rights, there is no firm basis from which to proceed. I fear that this attempt to codify practices in this already
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very difficult field may further complicate the attitudes and actions of individuals who are already caught in the net of closed shops. I think it may also make the difficulties of their advisers more complete.
May I take one section, Section 29 of the code of practice referring to closed shops, which states that where there are proposals for a new closed shop agreement and these become a matter for dispute, the services of ACAS will be available. It is only necessary to recollect that ACAS was set up by the previous Government with a philosophy on the closed shop diametrically opposed to that which I have just paraphrased as part of the philosophy of Mr. Prior and his Government colleagues. ACAS was created with the explicit objectives of widening the area of collective bargaining, with the consequent rapid extension of closed shop agreements.
The evidence of Mr. Mortimer before the Commons Select Committee, which is not yet in the Printed Paper Office, I believe tends to emphasise this view. We have to face the fact that the codes of practice issued under a philosophy, which on the whole I agree with, will, as the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said, certainly not meet with the approval of the trade union section of ACAS. Thus we are inviting a body with its independent existence founded on statute with specific powers to facilitate dubious and contentious matters on which it has already taken, at least in part, a positive view.
I do not say that within these constrictions, with all the difficulties that confront us with industrial relations, this House should refuse to endorse the codes of practice. One noble Lord on the Liberal Benches said that they were better than nothing. I do not myself think that that is a great commendation; they could in fact be a minus quantity. But, in the hope that the process of education—the education of the public, apart from those who are themselves involved intimately in our trade unions or in employer matters—may be beneficial, I shall go into the Lobby with the Government tonight if this Motion is challenged.
4.44 p.m.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, there is no doubt in my mind that those noble

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Lords on the Government Benches who are in support of the submission made by the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, in relation to various aspects of industrial relations, are actuated by the most sincere motives. I would not question their integrity for a single moment. One can understand that "the winter of discontent", as it has been described, created almost consternation among the general public and even disturbed many who support the trade union movement in all its various activities. But I wish to say, and I shall be brief in saying it, that all the codes of practice in the world, however carefully framed and animated by the most desirable objectives, will prove a complete failure. That is my belief.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, told your Lordships that he had substantial experience of industrial relations. May I be permitted to say that my experience of industrial relations exceeds by many long years—it is purely accidental—the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Rochester. I can recall a period before the First World War, when I was associated with the seafaring community. Having succeeded in organising seafaring men on the Clyde, in Liverpool and in Southampton—three of the most prominent liner ports—we decided in our wisdom, or lack of it, that every seafarer engaged in any of the liners concerned, whether on deck or below, in varying capacities, should become a member of our union.
That was the beginning of the closed shop. Indeed, I might almost claim to be its inventor! A closed shop was essential, apart from its desirability or its objective, for a man, either on deck or below, whether working as a fireman, a trimmer, a greaser, an engineman, a donkeyman or whatever it might be, refused to join the union at his peril. In the foc'sle or the galley—the galley was where the catering department resided, if one may use that term, because the conditions were abominable—those men knew very well that it was necessary to join the union because one could not live as a non-union man alongside members of the union. One might disappear overboard during the night or might have his throat cut!
In those days seafaring people were not very much troubled with incidents of that
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kind. They are now, of course, reputable, creditable people, respectable and accepted by the community; but in those days it was somewhat different. Why?—because the wages and conditions of those who sailed on the ocean and even of those on the coastal lines were the worst that anybody could imagine. Men on deck were sailing across the Atlantic in gorgeous liners for £3.10s a month, and firemen below, heaving the coal into the furnaces, were getting £4 a month. We demanded £5.10s a month and that was regarded as a horrible action on the part of the trade unions, or, at any rate, the men involved. The employers were determined to find a large number of men who were unemployed and who were ready to act we called them blacklegs—in order to destroy the efforts of the union members and of the union itself. There was picketing and, if I dare use the expression—I am not quite sure whether it is in order—it was bloody picketing. There was no nonsense about it. It was the real stuff.
Somebody—I think my noble friend Lord McCarthy and, also, the noble Lord, Lord Rochester—used the term "mass picketing". I have on various occasions, not only in connection with the seafaring community, but when engineers were on strike in the various shipbuilding yards on the Clyde, seen hundreds and hundreds—almost running into thousands—of men who were unemployed, and who had returned from the First World War with nothing to do and no work. There was no social security or, if there was any, it was a mere pittance. Naturally, they gathered in support, as they thought, of the other men, the men who were on strike, but they were actually supporting themselves. Passions ran riot in those days, just as they did during the winter of discontent.
I must make it clear beyond peradventure—I do not want to be misunderstood—that some of the incidents and episodes that occurred during the winter of discontent, particularly when pickets refused to allow foodstuffs to enter hospitals and institutions of that character, where helpless people were involved, people who were incapacitated and who were without foodstuffs, medical supplies and so on, appalled me.
But there is another kind of picketing. That is the kind of picketing against

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unscrupulous employers—and there are some; it is no use denying it—who will take advantage of the industrial situation, the weakness of a trade union or the weakness of the men concerned, in order to reduce, so far as it is in their power to do so, the conditions that prevail, instead of permitting them to be improved.
Therefore, I say to the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie—and I say it with the utmost friendliness, with no malice intended and with no hostility—you are wasting your time. Let the common law prevail. To that I offer no objection. If vast numbers of men turn out when there is an industrial dispute, and there are scuffles and assaults, the police are molested or there is anything of that kind, put a stop to it. Let the law prevail. But to use codes of practice, carefully framed, although subject to objections even by industrialists, cannot work. Because even members of the CBI have asserted, if I read the newspapers correctly, that codes of practice on closed shops will not work. Of course they cannot work. If there is conscientious objection on religious grounds, moral grounds or any other kind of grounds, that is a different matter. But you cannot operate a system of that kind and expect that industrial relations will be to the advantage of those concerned. That is my warning to the Government.
If I have any power on this side of the House—and I do not possess any; I have no influence either—I would advise my noble friends to divide in order to display not resentment, but essential opposition to proposals of this character. It must be left to them, but I state my opposition not because I think that the Government are completely wrong, completely and deliberately hostile, wanting to destroy and to bash the trade unions or endeavouring to worsen the conditions of the workers of this country, but because this effort will be of no value whatever. The best that the Government could do, looking ahead with foresight, understanding and with the utmost integrity, and for the good of the nation at large, would be to dismiss the project entirely.
4.56 p.m.
Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, to succeed such a wonderful speech is, in fact, a great honour. I have risen very briefly to support my noble friend's
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efforts in putting forward these codes of practice. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, with his great wealth of experience, does not think that they will be of any use and encourages his noble friends, or the people on the same side of the House as himself, to go into the Lobbies against them, because it is true to say that we have tried all kinds of things and are coming in this day and age—perhaps it was rather different 60 years ago—to see that there are openings for such things as codes of practice. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said so and I think it is worth a try.
The noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, picked all kinds of holes in the codes of practice, and I am sure that they were genuinely picked, but they really could have been expected, in view of the general line that he personally took, let alone the party of which he forms part, when the Employment Bill was going through this House. But I suggest to your Lordships that these codes of practice are certainly worth trying. They may not be perfect, and only experience can show us where they are not perfect. But I am quite certain that my noble friend and his colleagues in the Government will be happy indeed to improve on the codes of practice if experience has shown that to be necessary. But we have to start somewhere.
The very best possible efforts were made to consult with everybody who was affected. If some people chose not to consult, that was their fault and they might have been said to be irresponsible in not trying to solve this problem which faces the nation as a whole. So I trust that the party opposite will have second thoughts about whether it goes into the Lobby against these codes of practice. I suggest that they are worth a try, and that perhaps we should tackle them again in the future when we have seen how they work. In the meantime, I wish them well.
4.58 p.m.
Baroness SEEAR: My Lords, I do not wish to pick holes in any particular part of these codes of practice, nor do I propose to vote against them if a Division is called. But I want to voice a certain unease about the increasing use of codes of practice. I do not think we are clear about what nature of instrument codes of practice

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are, and I do not think we have thought out what their proper function is or, indeed, whether they have a proper function in our system. I hope that at some time your Lordships' House will take time to examine the nature and function of codes of practice, because it seems to me that what is happening is that when we have a really controversial piece of legislation, and there is something that is too hot to get through in the legislation itself, we tend to say—and I can see the attraction of this—"We will not have this in the Act. We will put it into a code of practice." When you put it into a code of practice, you do not have to be so clear about what "it" really is, because it does not have the force of law; it can only be used in evidence in a case.
I am bound to say—and this is not the first time I have thought it—that this is a thoroughly muddle-headed way of dealing with new developments in whatever sphere it may be: industrial relations, health or safety, or whatever. We of course need to have a statement in plain English about what the law means. It is good to have ideas as to how laws should be put into practice, but I question whether this thing which we have come to call a code of practice is really the right way to go. It is an amalgam of guidelines and explanations, as the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, has pointed out, which has a very dubious legal standing, as I see it, and which seems to me to be an escape route from difficult matters which we do not wish to thresh out in legalisation.
Over the last eight or 10 years we have used this device again and again. As I say, I do not propose to oppose it on this occasion if it is put to a vote, but I think that as a legislative assembly we ought to be asking ourselves what we are really doing with codes of practice and whether this is the kind of instrument we ought to be developing to make use of on all awkward occasions.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask her whether or not she agrees with me that the essence of the distinction is whether the code is based upon agreement? The Highway Code is based upon agreement and is extremely useful, but if there
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is no basis of agreement there is no case for a code.
Baroness SEEAR: My Lords, it depends who is going to agree, which raises another issue, does it not? The agreement is with people who are outside the legislative assembly, and that raises another set of issues.
Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARD: But, my Lords, you have got to start somewhere. A code of practice is only a guide to good behaviour. As we have heard, it is not enforceable in law, so I do not really see why all this heat has been engendered. The noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, appears to think that it is enforceable in law, but it is only a guide to good behaviour. He said that we should rely on the common law. Two winters ago we relied on the common law—and look what happened. There was appalling chaos.
I support these codes of practice and think that it is a really good way of going about bettering industrial relations. Let us try them out. People will probably get used to them. Then the idea will grow. In this country we have always done things by compromise. I think that it is excellent.
There is one question which I should like to ask my noble friend the Minister. It relates to the suggested number of pickets, which is six. There can also be trade union officials. I am not quite sure what number of trade union officials there can be. Very few unions are unscrupulous—they are fairly reasonable at times—but if you had an unscrupulous organisation of a picket, arm bands could be handed out and one could get 100 or 200 so-called trade union officials. That appears to be a slight weakness in the code of practice, but as it is not enforceable in law, anyway, it is not a very important point. I certainly support the Government in their codes of practice.
5.4 p.m.
Lord O'BRIEN of LOTHBURY: My Lords, I wonder whether I may add a gloss to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, on this question of codes of practice. She will be well aware that in the City we have long had a code of practice on take-over bids. It existed

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well before 1967 and was drawn up by people concerned with a particular aspect of our affairs, all of whom were agreed that those affairs had to be conducted in a decent and proper manner for the good of everybody. Nevertheless, by the time we came to 1967 that code of practice was being so abused that I, in my position as Governor of the Bank of England, had to establish a take-over panel with a certain authority—not legal authority but the authority of prestige and acceptability in the City—to make sure that the code was accepted and acted upon, even by people who agreed that it was in their best interests that it should be done.
To take the point which was made by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, it seems to me that a code of practice upon which the people subject to it are not agreed is a very dangerous instrument and certainly needs to be reinforced by something. In this case no doubt it will be reinforced by the law. Whether that will be a good way to reinforce it I do not know. So far as take-over bids were concerned, we in the City felt that the law was a very dangerous instrument to invoke.
Lord SPENS: My Lords, I agree very much with what the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, has said about codes of practice and the way that Governments are now trying to make use of them to shuffle off nasty bits of the legislation which should be in the law—or not at all. But enough of that. I should like to ask the Minister whether these codes are in the format in which they will be published. If so, I think that they are horribly dreary documents. I do not believe that many people are likely to read or to study dreary documents. The Highway Code has been mentioned on many occasions. That is not a dreary document. It is good; it is well illustrated; it is easy to read, and I think anyone can absorb it. I do hope that, before the codes are published, something can be done to brighten them up.
I would suggest something with cartoons as illustrations. At the moment the code of picketing, which I want to talk about for just a short time, is very obscure in some of its provisions. One has to look around and find out where they are. Let us take, for example, the question of
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secondary action. Secondary action, which a number of us believe may develop very extensively in the future, is hidden away in the annex. It is not completely hidden away there because two paragraphs—I think paragraphs 8 and 9—in the code itself mention secondary action. But there is no heading before those paragraphs to draw the attention of anybody to the fact that they deal with secondary action. The remaining paragraphs of that section have headings, so why not have a heading for secondary action?
Furthermore, there is no mention anywhere in the code of flying pickets. There is mention of mass picketing which has been commented upon by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, but the flying picket which was certainly used by Mr. Arthur Scargill during the steel strike became quite a menacing operation. There is no mention anywhere that flying pickets are illegal under the Employment Act 1980 if those flying pickets go and take up their stance on a picket line which is not their own place of work.
Putting those two together, could we not have a marvellous cartoon of a flying Arthur Scargill suddenly being brought down to earth by hitting the thunderstorm of flying outside his own area of the Yorkshire coalmines when he tries to come into a picket line somewhere other than in Yorkshire?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, but while the point he is making is fresh in the mind of the House, I think I should point out to him that in Section B of the code on picketing it is made quite clear what the Employment Act 1980 says about picketing, and also that picketing outside one's own place of work is quite clearly illegal. It says it there in Section B6.
Lord SPENS: My Lords, it does; but if someone wanted to join a flying picket he would not know where to look to find out whether what he was going to do was legal or not. Surely we should point out that actions which have been common in the past are now outlawed by the 1980 Employment Act. Having said that, my Lords, although I sit on this side of the House, but not with the Opposition, I propose to support the Government in the Lobby today.
5.11 p.m.
Lord HANKEY: My Lords, I warmly support both these codes in general. I am sure that the Government are right to follow up the Employment Act with this really serious attempt to define what sensible, humane and reasonable industrial behaviour ought to be. And this not only in an Act to be applied by the courts but in codes of practice and behaviour to be held in respect by ordinary men and women on both sides of industry. I earnestly hope that the Government and everyone of good will on both sides of industry and in the press and in the media generally, will constantly refer to these codes for their own enlightenment and in order to reach sensible judgments about industrial disputes, and more especially to persuade others to be more sensible, too.
The Highway Code has been mentioned and I think it is an excellent precedent, with its advice not only to drivers of cars and trucks but also to cyclists, pedestrians and even schoolchildren, and I am sure that this shows the way we ought to go. May I add here, though, that I am more than ever convinced that the section on secondary picketing is really too lax and too complicated. But there it is: I just mention it as a grumble. We have to live with it; we have it in the law and we have to have the code, warts and all. These problems must be solved as we go along—solvitur ambulando.
These codes and the Employment Act between them are really only the end of the first stage of the Government's policy as regards industrial relations—at least I hope it is only the first stage, because there is very much more to be done. We have climbed one ridge of a mountain range. The outlook is encouraging in several ways, but ahead of us there are rocky alpine heights to be crossed before we can descend into the sunny plains of prosperity. As the wistful German poet wrote:
"Kennst Du das Land wo die Zitronen blueh'n?"—
"Know'st thou the land where the lemon trees are in blossom?"
My Lords, we have hardly been there once since 1906, the date of the Industrial Disputes Act.
This brings me to my last and much my most important point. No one can arrest
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the frightening decline of this country—no, my Lords, not even Mrs. Thatcher's Government—unless industry can be made to work. But one cannot make industry work efficiently as long as any employee or group of employees can break valid contracts of employment or procedure, or even commercial contracts, with total impunity. After studying what our successful foreign competitors do, I really wish to insist that neither side of industry should be allowed to do this and get away with it. I have grave doubts about free collective bargaining, but free collective swindling (which is what we have) is a straight recipe for industrial disaster, as our dire experience should have made clear long ago. I have for years been mixed up with export promotion abroad and I can assure your Lordships categorically that strikes and industrial disputes have been the most important factor in the dreadful loss of markets for our products, both at home and abroad, and especially in the terrible ruin of our great ports like London and Liverpool. No wonder we have unemployment!
So the mountain range I spoke of, which still separates us from the blossoming land of prosperity, is this forbidding question of immunities. I repeat "immunities" because a lot of people do not want to hear the word. We were promised a Green Paper for last summer. First it was going to come in August, and then it was coming in September; but we have not heard anything more. I earnestly trust that this will be mentioned in the Queen's Speech next week.
It may well be that the Government may want to deal with this only when the codes of practice have inspired good habits throughout industry. I would fully understand that attitude and see the point of it, but I am anxious that the Government should not leave this most awkward and prickly problem untouched for too long. It is difficult to correct inflation unless industry functions. We can cut down the monetary overhang, but if industry does not supply the goods on the market one is left with an inflation problem. That is a slightly childish way of expressing it, but there is real basic validity in the thought. I thought last year, on the basis of my five years at OEEC and OECD, that not enough people here realise the tremendous difficulty and the time needed to correct the

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sort of inflation that we have in this country. It is an immensely difficult problem and it can only be tackled with painful experience. That is what we ate now going through. I think the Government are entirely right to tackle that as a first priority. But besides the monetary problems, the industrial problems are really equally vital and at the heart of them is this problem of industrial relations immunities, which require a really basic reform, both as to law and practice. I hope the Government will deal with this while they still have an active public opinion behind them.
The noble Lord, Lord Renton, circulated, but never presented, a most interesting amendment to the Employment Act which restated immunities in a positive instead of a negative way. I personally think that our approach to immunities from prosecution has been wrong and that it would be better to say what can be done instead of letting people off for doing something which ought not to be done. But that is something which we must study.
In conclusion, I want to congratulate my noble friend Lord Gowrie on the really excellent, capable and distinguished way in which he has handled these questions in your Lordships' House. I wish to congratulate him on what he has done, and he has given a very good explanation of these codes to us today.
5.19 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate but there have been so many remarks about tyrannical behaviour, the necessity to take away immunity from the law, the comments about developing proper behaviour, and so on, that I feel compelled to say a few words. If I thought that industrial relations could be solved by means of these codes of conduct, I would give them complete and 100 per cent. support. I echo the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Shinwell. I am certain that no one in your Lordships' House can support violence or attacks made upon defenceless people through industrial actions, but, having said that, we must recognise that there are human feelings of workers who believe that they are not being consulted. If men come to work tonight and they are
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told tomorrow that a thousand of them must go in a week's time, without consultation and without discussion, of course there will be resentment, and unless we can build up a proper measure of some form of partnership and thorough consultation, these codes of conduct will not get us anywhere.
It would appear to me that some noble Lords believe that if we pass these codes of conduct we have solved the problem of industrial relations. I say "some noble Lords," because some noble Lords have put this point of view. We have been talking about tyrannical conduct. I believe there is tyrannical conduct from an employer, and we see it too often. We know that we are in an industrial recession, but, hang it all, my daugher is living in a fairly new road in what used to be a mining village in Nottinghamshire. In the last week, in this small new road of owner occupied houses, four people have become redundant and there is a fifth scared out of his wits. There was no discussion, no consultation; they have just gone to work and been told that the job is not there any more.
I should like to see some pressure put on employers concerning trade union recognition, how they should go about trade union recognition, because we still have employers who, as far as I am concerned, gravely misbehave on the question of action they take against trade union recognition. If I may take one or two points of the code on the closed shop, it says employers should consider also the effect of a closed shop on employment and on industrial relations. But there is no reference here to the fact that there are many employers who believe in a closed shop, many employers who have said publicly that the closed shop is the only sound way to get effective industrial relations in their particular industry. There is no reference to that in the code.
There is also reference in the code to this question of deeply held personal conviction. This is a point which some noble Lords will recall I raised at Committee stage. One can visualise considerable legal arguments as to what this really does mean. It can be the freedom of an individual to say, "I'm all right, Jack, and to hell with trade unionism with my colleagues". That could be held to be a deeply-held personal conviction. One

1531
could be opposed to a trade union which affiliates to the Labour Party, or opposed to a trade union because of the nature of its leadership. This is not defined and it could lead to considerable difficulty. Frankly, while I oppose some things that have been done in the name of trade unionism in the last couple of years or so, I cannot condone the actions of a man who will not support his colleagues but who believes in the "I'm all right, Jack" attitude. One can understand the resentment of his colleagues who believe that he ought to play a part in their general support.
Turning to paragraph 35 it says that it is laid down in the Act that 80 per cent. of those entitled to vote is needed in order to get a closed shop agreement. But then it says,
"This does not prevent an employer from deciding that there should be a higher percentage".
Then it goes on to say that there must be agreement between the employer and the union on the figure appropriate. But the employer has already said: "I want a higher figure"; that is written into the code. There is no question as to whether there should be agreement; if he decides on a higher figure, there has got to be agreement on what he wants.
I also find in paragraph 30 (vii) that the agreement should provide for periodic reviews of a closed shop, and this is amplified in paragraph 42. I should like the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, to make it quite clear that if there is a ballot taken at one time and there is not 80 per cent. support that does not inhibit another ballot being taken fairly soon afterwards if the trade union considers that there is increased support. When I look through the code it appears to be written more from the angle of not wishing to have a closed shop but defining how you can possibly do it if you can get it, rather than from a more constructive angle. Certainly there is not agreement on it.
If I may say one word on the question of pickets, agreed that the code makes quite clear that the police can decide the number of pickets; but the code goes on to say that there should be agreement that the number should not exceed six at any one entrance. It would be a very strange police officer who would decide to allow
1532
a figure above six because he would take six as being the figure which would be admissible in any hearing. It is this sort of thing that I believe needs clarification. Unless there is agreement on both sides on the code I do not believe it will be successful. My basic point is that I believe we are in a dream world in suggesting that a code is going to solve the bitter problems of industrial relations.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, I should like to intervene very briefly, having too listened to the debate with great interest. I do not know whether other noble Lords heard a review on radio about Northern Ireland at this moment. It seems to me that this is a very unfortunate moment to introduce this genteel code of practice we have been talking about, with unemployment approaching 3 million. However good the Government think these codes are, they are not going to succeed at present unless unemployment falls, not merely below 3 million, but unless we get rid of unemployment at this high level. In this talk on the radio about Northern Ireland they simply said that all the trouble, all the violence was entirely due to unemployment. It seems to me this code of practice has not got a chance of working unless we get rid of unemployment.
Lord FRASER of KILMORACK: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, I had not originally intended to intervene in this debate; I only do so because I think we tend to be losing sight of one particular point, and that is all I really wish to talk about. I am warmly in support of the Government in their general industrial relations policy and in relation to these codes of conduct. I have some sympathy with what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, about the ultimate limitations of codes of conduct; they can obviously be carried too far and can be used as an alibi in certain cases. But I think that, in this particular area of industrial relations, they are at least well worth trying.
My own direct experience of industry leads me to believe that industrial relations over a wide range of British industry, perhaps contrary to some people's belief, are really quite reasonably satisfactory. We are, of course, also aware, though,

1533
that over recent years there have been plenty of incidents which have shown them in certain areas to be wildly unsatisfactory; and it is not a situation that I think any Government worth its salt could leave alone. Up to a point you can produce a framework of law, and that is fair enough, but I think that in any matter that relates to relations between human beings the law can only really go, and properly go, a little way. I therefore welcome these codes of conduct as a sort of further skirmishing area beyond the law, where some good may well be done. I do not think anybody in his senses would think that they were going to be some marvellous panacea for all the remaining problems of industrial relations—but I certainly propose to support them today.
5.29 p.m.
Lord ARDWICK: My Lords, I must apologise for not being here at the beginning of the debate, but I had a medical appointment which could not be broken. I must also plead an interest; I have been a member of the National Union of Journalists for 50 years, and I am a life member now. I think the suspicions which are couched in Section E, "The closed shop and the freedom of the press", may apply to the National Union of Journalists rather than to the Institute of Journalists, which is full of sweetness and light but is not very effectual as a trade union, although it is a legitimate trade union.
When Professor Finer was writing about the report of the Royal Commission and was contemplating this charter on the freedom of the press he asked, "What has Mr. Albert Booth got to do with Areopagitica?". One might ask the same question about Mr. Prior. However, there did arise a fear in the minds of some of us that if you have closed shops some rather militant union branches might at some time want to tell some editor what to put in the paper and what to leave out. Therefore, there might be a conflict between the rights of trade unionists to combine and the right of editors to edit their papers properly. I think that that fear was exaggerated at the time. I do not think that it relates particularly to the closed shop. In my view that danger could theoretically be present if there
1534
were 80 or 90 per cent. union membership in a newspaper.
I rose recently during Question Time to defend the last part of the section about an editor's freedom to decide whether or not to publish any material. This clause says that:
"He should exercise this right responsibly with due regard for the interests of the readers of the publication and the employment or opportunities of employment of professional journalists".
That is quite a wise and sensible provision because obviously there must be agreements between the union and the editor about the sheer volume of contributed matter that appears in the average daily newspaper. A number of newspapers have such agreements and I do not think that anyone finds them repressive.
I am a little worried about paragraph 57 which says:
"the actions of unions must not be such as to conflict with the principle of press freedom. In particular any requirement on journalists to join a union creates the possibility of such a conflict".
In paragraph 56 it says:
"All concerned have a duty to ensure that industrial relations are conducted so as not to infringe"
the principle of the freedom of the press. "All concerned" would include employers. There is a mention of employers in paragraph 58, but there is no mention of employers in paragraph 57. My own experience is this; I have never known a union to interfere with my freedom, but employers have interfered quite often with my freedom to express comment.
The other day Mr. Michael Foot said that the reason he gave up the editorship of the Evening Standard was that he could foresee that he would not have an accord with Lord Beaverbrook when peace came; and he had a signal of that when that noble Lord objected to the report that he had published on the Beveridge Report. I may say that even a year prior to that I saw the blue light at the Evening Standard when I wrote a profile of Beveridge which was accepted by Mr. Foot, but which was never able to appear. So I think that it would have been a better code if employers had been brought in to paragraph 57.
Paragraph 58 says that:
"Individual journalists may genuinely feel that membership of a trade union is incompatible

1535
with their need to be free from any serious risk of interference with their freedom to report or comment".
I should like to know the Government and the department's thinking on this. I cannot visualise what might happen. There may be some real examples—there may be a real necessity for it—but if so they are quite outside my own personal experience. I hope that the Minister when he comes to wind up will say something about that.
My experience of trade unionism as a collector is the same as that of many trade unionists; namely, that there are some people who are so mean that in the words of the late George Jean Nathan they would not pay 10 cents to see the 12 Apostles in a six-day hike race; and they can produce all kinds of philosophic reasons which are mentioned in the earlier part of this code for that meanness. But anyone who has had the job of collecting union dues knows how difficult it is to extract them from such types and how often they are in arrears and how high-minded their antiunion sentiments can be. I think that paragrah 58 strikes me as being rather naïve.
If I am critical, I must say that to write a code of this kind, to produce a wise code, is extremely difficult. The idea was born in mind of Mr. Alistair Hetherington, the then editor of the Guardian, at a difficult time in negotiations on the previous Bill. But no one until now has had the courage to grasp the nettle. The department has done so, but the result is a code that is even more imperfect than I had feared.
5.36 p.m.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I think that it could only be in your Lordships' House that we could debate two codes, one of which is about the closed shop, and enjoy a notable contribution from a Member of the House who claimed to have invented it. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, is altogether pleased with the development of his child, but he is a realist and he knows that children sometimes grow up responsibly, sometimes they lose their manners, and sometimes, like most of us, they exhibit a combination of the two.
1536
I think that the moment which I most cherished in this interesting and stimulating debate was when the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, said that if you did not belong to the closed shop in its early days, in a seagoing context, one night you might disappear overboard, and I heard my noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel say "sotto voce but not quite sotto enough, "That is why we now need a code of practice".
I want to thank noble Lords who have given fairly general support for the codes, even where they have added the rider that of course they will not solve industrial relations difficulties—nor are they designed to do so. They are designed to help and to provide practical and useful guidance.
I would like to take up at a fairly early stage the remarks made by the noble Baroness when she said that we were going down the dubious road, common to various Governments in the present age, of lumping that which we find difficult or contentious in legislation over on to the more neutral, safer or more blurred ground of codes of practice. I resist very strongly the suggestion that that is being done here, and I want to try to persuade the noble Baroness and the House and to clear up this confusion.
This code, as I said in my opening speech, is two things in one. It is a guide to existing law and it is neutral in that way. It describes what the law is in easy and everyday terms. It then adds to that a guide to reasonable behaviour and practice which, as I tried to show in my opening remarks, has in nearly every case been drawn from existing procedures and existing good practice as a common sense approach, but backed by the Secretary of States' views—with the authority of Parliament behind him—of what good practice should be. I do not think that this is an incompatibility and nor do I think that it is sloughing off a difficult or contentious area on to more neutral ground.
Of course, the courts must decide what weight to attach to general principles when they are dealing with particular cases. It would be quite wrong for codes of practice to make attempts to decide what individual cases might be covered or what sort of individual case situations might arise. That might possibly help the

1537
noble Lord, Lord Underhill, and others who said that the provision in the Act about deeply-held personal conviction was ambiguous. In my view it is not ambiguous in language at all, but whether or not my view is right, it is now a phrase enshrined in statute, and it is surely the business of the courts to decide what it means; in my view they will have no difficulty in doing so. However, I do not think that it would be appropriate for a code of practice, giving guidance to existing law on the one hand and to ordinary, sensible good management procedures, if you like, on the other, to confuse those two issues.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, if that is the case, how does the noble Earl explain that in the code of practice on closed shops on several occasions the Government are, in fact, defining what "unreasonable exclusion and expulsion" might mean?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, the Government—as I shall say to the noble Lord, because I think that I have detailed answers to most of his questions—are taking the view of the Secretary of State on the existing best practice, plus an interpretation of what the law is. It seems to me that the noble Lord is really asking too much of a code. It is perfectly fair for the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, to say that we do not need codes or that this code is of no practical value, if that is what he believes; but it is not the job of a code to spell out these distinctions; as I say, it is to give an indication of good practice. But I shall return to the point of the closed shop when I answer the noble Lord.
I hope that the House will forgive me if, although the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, spoke first, I deal with some of his points last because they were the most detailed and there were quite a number of them, so it would be more appropriate to deal with them towards the end. I got considerable pleasure from the speech of my noble friend Lord de L'Isle. He and I have had many discussions, both privately and in debates publicly here in your Lordships' House, about this institution of the closed shop which both he and I, in common with the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, do not
1538
like in any way at all. I rather agree with him when he says that one problem facing us in this country is that we lack constitutional protection for individual rights. It is not for me to say how we might remedy this lack or how the future will unfold in this regard, but I certainly share that view with him.
However, I am glad that he, in common with my noble friends Lord Cottesloe, Lord Mottistone and Lord Massereene and Ferrard, has acknowledged that we have to start somewhere. That was the phrase that I think all three used, and all three acknowledged that this was a reasonable beginning. My noble friend Lord Cottesloe said that irresponsible picketing or violent picketing was deeply repugnant to the majority of trade union members. When the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy—and, again, I shall return to this point in just a few moments—says that this code has no authority, no consultation and no agreement behind it, as he finds in the case, say, of the earlier ACAS codes, I can only say to him that our opinion is much closer to that of my noble friend Lord Cottesloe. On almost every test of public opinion that we can devise we have found that there is overwhelming consent, not only from within the union movement but from within our own political opponents within the union movement among ordinary members.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, while the noble Earl is on his feet, will be give us some evidence of that?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, since May 1979 I think that there have been nine public opinion polls of both union members and non-union members, supporters of the Labour Party, and opponents of the Labour Party, on issues connected with picketing and on issues connected with the closed shop. Off-the-cuff, the figure I remember is an 89 per cent. majority of ordinary union members, most of them supporting the Labour Party, registering their opinion in those polls about these provisions. I have never been one to give credence to opinion polls which can fluctuate very strongly, but there is an amazing pattern of development here. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Fraser for reminding us of the limitations of law and

1539
I want to reiterate throughout my remarks that we are very sensible of the limitations of law. There are other things to be done, but we are, as it were, making a start and we have to start somewhere.
I say to my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard that the number of six is meant to include all the pickets, being a sensible number, and all the picket organisers. It does not mean that there should be six pickets and 100 picket organisers. If my noble friend will do me the courtesy of referring to the debates on the picketing clauses in the Employment Act, he will see that we took provision against what I jocularly called the "wild west proviso", whereby the sheriff could designate a number of deputies in order to swell the posse.
I admired the able way in which, somewhat far from the subject perhaps, the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, was able to get a little PR for PR into a debate on picketing. His ingenuity was impressive. The noble Lord, Lord Spens—who has been a critic of our legislation—also gave me pleasure in saying that he is coming into line (if that is the right image in this context) tonight if this code is pressed to a vote. He asked me whether the codes where in their final format. I am glad to tell him that they will have more attractive covers, but they will not include illustrations or cartoons; perhaps the noble Lord might care to suggest to me privately what illustrations or cartoons he has in mind. The codes are designed in that format so that they will easily slip into one's pocket.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, seemed to be suggesting that the review provisions of the code on the closed shop might lead to disruption and hence worsen industrial relations. This was also a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. We do not accept that. It is clearly reasonable that existing arrangements should be reviewed from time to time. The guidance is flexible and leaves the exact timing and form of the review to the discretion of employers and unions. We would not think that that would present many problems in terms of industrial relations.
The noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, told me most courteously that he was not able
1540
to be here for my opening speech. If he will kindly read it tomorrow, he will see that I deal with some of the press provisions and perhaps if he is not satisfied with the general answer, he will ask me to write to him.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving way; mine is only a small intervention. I was with the Government on the matter of the review of the closed shops. If the noble Earl will recall, my doubts related simply to the number of six in relation to picketing.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, as I said earlier, six is a general number and is the Secretary of State's view, with the authoritative backing of Parliament, as to what might be reasonable for the purpose of peacefully persuading; but, of course, it is still left to the discretion of the police—who have responsibilities for public order and for ensuring that breaches of the peace do not occur—to limit the numbers if they so choose.
I come now to—as we would expect—the very eloquent, very informed speech, from the point of view of the official Opposition, of the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy. Frankly, I am astonished that he should question the inclusion of the reference to the ease of Piddington v. Bates in the guidance of pickets. He calls this an extreme case and of no help to anyone. But it is the case—and this answers the point that I have just made to the noble Lord, Lord Rochester—in which the police discretion to limit numbers, where they fear disorder, was established in the High Court. I cannot accept that that could be called extreme.
The noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, asked why we did not negotiate the legal sections of the code with the TUC. We should have been most happy to do so, but the TUC made it clear that they would not do this unless we also committed ourselves not to bring forward the Employment Act itself. That we were not prepared to do because, in our judgment, the vast majority of people in the country—including, as I said earlier, the vast majority of trade union members—support the Act generally. The noble Lord asked me about practical guidance in relation to the picketing code. He said that the functions of the picket

1541
organisers are unrealistic. But these are very largely a compilation of advice offered to pickets in the TUC's own guide published in 1979. We have simply drawn together a number of parts of that code and addressed them specifically to the organisers of pickets who will, of course, have the prime responsibility for the pickets' conduct. Is the noble Lord saying that he does not agree with the TUC's guide either?
He also criticises the lists of essential services and supplies, but there is scarcely anything in our list in paragraph 38 which is not in the TUC's code issued in 1979. That is why we take the view that this is practical guidance because it is largely taken from the trades unions' own practical experience. The noble Lord asked whether the Government were saying that the section on essential supplies imposes legal obligations. Of course it does not. Paragraph 4 of the code on picketing makes it clear that Section 3 is guidance on good practice. Under Section 3 of the Act, they do not and cannot impose a new legal obligation. Is the noble Lord really saying that no guidance is needed at all on this? Is he saying that pickets should not take care not to inconvenience members of the public in their task of peacefully persuading people of their case? Is he saying that the disruption of the community—for example, during the road haulage dispute—was in fact justified?
The noble Lord also criticised us for saying there was not a word on what pickets can do as opposed to what they are prevented from doing. I make no apology for the fact that the codes emphasise the restrictions which the law puts on pickets, and the rights of those who want to cross the picket lines. The noble Lord referred to such people as "scabs". The fact is that pickets have for too long sheltered under a claimed ignorance of the law. They have used this as an excuse for some of the bully-boy tactics which we have seen all too often in recent years on the picket line. But let me add that the code is dotted with advice on what pickets can do. A good example is in paragraph 18, which has been expanded to give greater guidance on peaceful picketing.
I come quickly to one or two points of the noble Lord on the closed shop provisions. He remarked on the fact
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that the closed shop code does not explain what will constitute a genuine objection to trade union membership under the Act. That is of course true. We made a decision not to do so because we did not think that it would be helpful. An academic or a legalistic definition of conscience, or deeply-held personal conviction as I said in answering the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, would be inappropriate in the code. It is surely for the tribunals to interpret these terms and apply them in the facts of each case. I cannot repeat too often that the purpose of these codes is not to try to do the courts' job for them.
As I said when we were debating the Employment Bill, laws can shape behaviour over time, but they will not transform deeply-rooted attitudes overnight. That I think was the message of a very remarkable contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Hankey. I agreed with everything lie said in his contribution, and not only because he was kind enough to make some polite remarks about myself, for which I thank him.
Of course inflation, with its connection with unemployment, is our first duty and our first responsibility, and of course we do not expect that this kind of legislative provision will be in the front line of that fight against inflation. But the will to put right what is wrong with our industrial relations must not stop at legislation. What is wrong with our industrial relations has had a considerable contribution, though, to inflation, as the noble Lord implies, and also therefore to unemployment. Once we have established the right framework of law difficult tasks still lie ahead of us, and that is the importance of these codes.
We part company here with the Opposition, who believe that the codes are unnecessary. When the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, was speaking, I had the feeling that I had heard it before and that we were being given a reprise of the arguments which he and the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn of Charlton—who I am sorry was not able to be present in our debate today—ably, but in my view wrongly, deployed in our debates on the Bill.
I think that the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, is too gloomy. He detects nefarious purposes where there are none. He uncovers imaginary pitfalls and he

1543
conjures up the ghosts of dead controversies and what to us are moribund theories. I think that these codes are modest provisions. I think they are a sensible way forward. I very much welcome the support that they have achieved in this House today, and I commend them to your Lordships.
Lord McCARTHY: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down—
Several noble Lords: Order!
Lord McCARTHY: I simply want to ask the noble Earl whether he will give one simple undertaking: namely, in respect of Section F of the picketing code where
we have demonstrated that he moves from law to opinion, from opinion to law, from law to opinion. Will he not separate them off?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I should have thought that anybody who took a commonsense reading rather than, as I said earlier, an academic or legalistic reading of that provision would see that they were quite clearly separated.
5.56 p.m.
On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 111; Not-Contents, 42.

CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Glenkinglas, L.

Penrhyn, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Gowrie, E.

Rawlinson of Ewell, L.

Alport, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Reigate, L.

Avon, E.

Greenway, L.

Reilly, L.

Banks, L.

Halsbury, E.

Richardson, L.

Belstead, L.

Hankey, L.

Rochdale, V.

Bessborough, E.

Hawke, L.

Rochester, L.

Boothby, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Boyd of Merton, V.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Saint Brides, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

St. Germans, E.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Ilchester, E.

Salisbury, M.

Byers, L.

Kemsley, V.

Sandford, L.

Caithness, E.

Keyes, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Campbell of Croy, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Seear, B.

Cathcart, E.

Kinnaird, L.

Seebohm, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Kintore, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Cockfield, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Shannon, E.

Colwyn, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Sherfield, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Long, V.

Simon, V.

Cottesloe, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Craigavon, L.

Lyell, L.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Spens, L.

Davidson, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Stamp, L.

de Clifford, L.

Margadale, L.

Strathclyde, L.

De L'Isle, V.

Marley, L.

Swansea, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Swinfen, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mersey, V.

Trefgarne, L.

Elibank, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Trenchard, V.

Ellenborough, L.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Trumpington, B.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Morris, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Elton, L.

Mottistone, L.

Vernon, L.

Faithfull, B.

Newall, L.

Vickers, B.

Ferrers, E.

Northchurch, B.

Vivian, L.

Foot, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Nunburnholme, L.

Wigoder, L.

Gainford, L.

O'Brien of Lothbury, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Glasgow, E.

Ogmore, L.

Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Gosford, E.

Balogh, L.

Darling of Hillsborough, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Bernstein, L.

David, B.

Gregson, L.

Birk, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Hale, L.

Brockway, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Jacobson, L.

Jacques, L.

McCarthy, L.

Shinwell, L.

Jeger, B.

Noel-Baker, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Kaldor, L.

Parry, L.

Stewart of Fulham, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Peart, L.

Stone, L.

Kirkhill, L.

Phillips, B.

Underhill, L.

Leatherland, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Wells-Pestell, L. [Teller.]

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

White, B.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

CLOSED SHOP AGREEMENTS AND ARRANGEMENTS: CODE OF PRACTICE
6.4 p.m.
The Earl of GOWRIE: I beg to move that the draft code of practice laid before the House on 5th November be approved.
Moved, That the draft code of practice laid before the House on 5th November be approved.—(The Earl of Gowrie.)
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, as it looks as though proceedings in another place may take another hour or two, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until 10.30 p.m.
House adjourned during pleasure.

  PARLIAMENTARIANS: EMOLUMENTS AND ALLOWANCES
  PARLIAMENTARIANS: EMOLUMENTS AND ALLOWANCES
  DOCTORS AVAILABLE FOR COURT WORK
  DOCTORS AVAILABLE FOR COURT WORK
  PSYCHIATRIC REPORTS ON PERSONS REMANDED ON BAIL
  PSYCHIATRIC REPORTS ON PERSONS REMANDED ON BAIL
  RPI: ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO
  RPI: ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO
  BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION: PROFITS AND LOSSES
  BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION: PROFITS AND LOSSES
  BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION: FINANCIAL REQUIREMENTS
  BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION: FINANCIAL REQUIREMENTS
  BRITISH RAIL: CHEAP TRAVEL CONCESSIONS
  BRITISH RAIL: CHEAP TRAVEL CONCESSIONS
  COVENANTS: TAX TREATMENT
  COVENANTS: TAX TREATMENT
  WAGES COUNCILS
  WAGES COUNCILS
  LEGIONNAIRES' DISEASE
  LEGIONNAIRES' DISEASE
  THE CHARITY COMMISSION: NUMBER OF STAFF
  THE CHARITY COMMISSION: NUMBER OF STAFF
  CHARITIES: INQUIRIES
  CHARITIES: INQUIRIES
  UNEMPLOYMENT: MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY RATES
  UNEMPLOYMENT: MORBIDITY AND MORTALITY RATES
  KEW GARDENS: ENTRANCE FEES
  KEW GARDENS: ENTRANCE FEES
  PoW CO-ORDINATING COMMITTEE: DOCUMENTS
  PoW CO-ORDINATING COMMITTEE: DOCUMENTS
  VEHICLE NOISE: CONTROLS
  VEHICLE NOISE: CONTROLS
  CHELTENHAM: ENFORCEMENT OF SPEED LIMITS
  CHELTENHAM: ENFORCEMENT OF SPEED LIMITS
  TRAFFIC IN PARLIAMENT SQUARE
  TRAFFIC IN PARLIAMENT SQUARE
  THE POSTCODE SYSTEM
  THE POSTCODE SYSTEM
  AIR INDIA v. WIGGINS: IMPLICATIONS
  AIR INDIA v. WIGGINS: IMPLICATIONS
  NORTHERN IRELAND: HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS
  NORTHERN IRELAND: HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS
  TRAFFIC WARNING SIGNS: FAMILIARITY
  TRAFFIC WARNING SIGNS: FAMILIARITY
  NORTHERN IRELAND: NURSING SERVICES
  NORTHERN IRELAND: NURSING SERVICES
  NORTHERN IRELAND: SCHOOL MEDICAL SERVICE
  NORTHERN IRELAND: SCHOOL MEDICAL SERVICE
  BELFAST AREAS OF NEED
  BELFAST AREAS OF NEED
  PROSECUTION FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT
  PROSECUTION FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT
  THE OFFICIAL REPORT: CHANGE IN FORMAT
  THE OFFICIAL REPORT: CHANGE IN FORMAT
  ROYAL COMMISSION
  ROYAL COMMISSION
  PROROGATION: HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH
  PROROGATION: HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH