Sitting of 4 November 1980

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that supplementary questions should be brief and that hon. Members who ask more than one supplementary question are taking the time which rightly belongs to other hon. Members.
  ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
    EMPLOYMENT

      Unemployed Persons
      Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the most recent unemployment figures.
      The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. James Prior): No member of the Government doubts the hardship caused by unemployment. We share the concern felt by everyone at the rapid increase. But the special measures like the youth opportunities programme are helping those hardest hit. It is only by making ourselves more competitive that real jobs will be created and unemployment will be brought down.
      Mr. Cryer: Is it not hypocritical to express concern when the Government's policies of high interest rates and cutbacks in public expenditure are creating the unemployment? Is it not time that the Government abandoned their proposals for further massive public expenditure cuts, which will only add to the public sector borrowing requirement, and reversed their policies in order to give some people some hope? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that even his Right wing Monday Club friends recognise the motorway madness of the Government?
      Mr. Prior: The hon. Gentleman's economics are very poor. It is partly the high level of public expenditure, causing a high level of public sector borrowing, which creates the high interest rates which are at the root of our problem.
      Mr. Thornton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people are complaining about the unnecessary bureaucratic delays that are preventing the implementation of the youth opportunities programme to help young people?
      Mr. Prior: The programme is going well. There have been a few complaints about the bureaucracy and filling in of forms. I have discussed the matter with the Manpower Services Commission which is examining whether it would be possible to simplify the form. We have to be careful to ensure that there is an element of training, and not an element of job substitution, in the programme.
      Mr. Varley: When will the right hon. Gentleman be announcing the new measures to assist the unemployed that he trailed as long ago as July and has mentioned on previous occasions? Is it not a fact that he has been prevented from making an announcement until the Cabinet has conducted its review of public expenditure? Does he agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) is correct in saying that if cuts arise from that review that will increase unemployment even further?
      Mr. Prior: I hope very much that, as I said in the House on Wednesday, we shall announce our new proposals at the opening of the next Session. Generally speaking, measures are announced in the February or March of the year in which they come into operation. We shall be making an announcement soon.
      Mr. Bulmer: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the percentage out of work in this country is in line with the figure in the United States, Canada, Australia, France and Italy and that the countries with the best record are those that have kept pay increases in line with output?
      Mr. Prior: Yes, the figures quoted by my hon. Friend are correct. The important thing is not just pay, but productivity. Productivity and competitiveness. are at the root of our problems.

      Young Persons
      Mr. Needhamasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he is satisfied with the running of the training schemes for young people sponsored by his Department.
      Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for Employment when he last met the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission to discuss the training content of the youth opportunities programme; and if he will make a statement.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Jim Lester): This is an important matter, which we all take seriously. I most welcome the intelligent and constructive remarks my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Needham) made last Wednesday. We are certainly looking for long-term solutions of the kind my hon. Friend advocates.
      My right hon. Friend met the chairman of the MSC on 16 October for a general discussion on future policy. We expect proposals relating to the training content of the youth opportunities programme and other future training provision, to be put forward in the commission's next draft corporate plan.
      Mr. Needham: Can my hon. Friend say what is the proportion of off-the-job training that is now included in the youth opportunities programme?
      Mr. Lester: I am pleased to tell the House that in 1978–79, 17 per cent. of the young people on the work experience programme received off-the-job training. In 1979–80, it rose to 38 per cent. which is a larger proportion of a greater number of trainees. We want to go still further to improve the quality of vocational training within the youth opportunities programme.
      Mr. Madel: As it is important to increase the opportunities for young people to acquire a skill through training, will my hon. Friend say whether the Government are yet ready to proceed with the introduction of the open polytechnic which would do a great deal to give young people a chance to acquire a skill and thereby increase their job prospects?
      Mr. Lester: We welcome very much the fifth report of the Education, Science
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      and Arts Select Committee which came out in favour of an "open tech". I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend and I are meeting the chairman of the MSC shortly to discuss various proposals that have been put forward. These are early days, but we are making progress.
      Mr. Haynes: The Minister comes to the Dispatch Box talking about the training prospects for the youngsters of this nation, but what has he to say about jobs following that training? Is he aware that plenty of my constituents are looking for work but cannot find it because of his policy?
      Mr. Lester: The success of young people in finding jobs as a result of the training element within the youth opportunities programme is clear. I am sure that the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes), whose constituency is next door to mine, is aware that many young people in Ashfield are getting jobs through the youth opportunities programme.
      Mr. Carter-Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the need for training young, severely handicapped people? Is he aware that their life expectancy is great but that their job expectancy is low? Will he take action to see that they are given training opportunities?
      Mr. Lester: I am very much aware of this matter, as the hon. Gentleman knows, having been to see me in my Department about it. Only a fortnight ago, I was at the Portland training college for the disabled looking at the training opportunities being given to severely disabled youngsters to enable them to get jobs.

      Employment Act 1980
      Mr. Neubertasked the Secretary of State for Employment what reactions he has received to his published proposals for a voluntary code on picketing and other matters under the Employment Act.
      The Under Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Patrick Mayhew): We have received representations from more than 70 interested organisations and individuals. The vast majority have welcomed the draft codes. In addition, the Select Committee on Employment has just published its report. Drafts revised in the light of comments made will be laid

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      before Parliament for approval very shortly.
      Mr. Neubert: Since the idea of voluntary restraint by the unions was widely criticised as being likely to be ineffective when it was prescribed by the previous Prime Minister in the winter of discontent, since the Select Committee has pronounced the latest proposals to be constitutionally undesirable, and since the TUC proposes to drive a container lorry through them anyway, what confidence has my hon. Friend and learned Friend that these voluntary codes are the right answer to industrial disruption?
      Mr. Mayhew: The guidance issued by the TUC had the disadvantage of having to operate in conjunction with law which, at that time, condoned many important abuses in industrial relations. The Employment Act has remedied those abuses. My right hon. Friend will pay careful attention to what has been said in response to the draft codes, including what has been said not only by the majority but the minority of the Select Committee.
      Mr. J. Enoch Powell: In revising the voluntary code for publication, will the Secretary of State, among other matters, take into account the suggestion that I made through the Select Committee, that there should be a sharper distinction between those parts that are statutory, those that are interpretations of statutes, and those that are neither?
      Mr. Mayhew: My right hon. Friend has noted the memorandum that the right hon. Gentleman placed before the Select Committee and the evidence that he gave. It is important that the distinction to which he has referred should be clearly made. It is also important to remember that the Secretary of State is empowered to issue codes to give such guidance as he thinks fit for promoting improved industrial relations. That is their status. We shall do our best to make sure that the distinctions are clear.
      Mr. Aitken: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that these codes will be widely welcomed. and indeed, have been widely welcomed, by some of us who sat on the Select Committee, precisely because they are full of sound practical common sense and likely to be just as valuable to the future of good industrial
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      relations as the Highway Code has been to good motoring?
      Mr. Mayhew: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The status of this code is identical to the status of the code of practice on industrial relations issued under the 1971 Act and still in force, and the ACAS codes of practice issued under the 1975 Act. I believe that industrial relations will be improved as a result of these draft codes.

      Job Release Scheme
      Mr. Hicksasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he now has any proposals to extend the job release scheme to include males in the 62 to 64 years of age group; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Jim Lester: A decision about the future of the job release scheme will be made as part of the review of the special employment and training measures which is now in progress. Decisions will be announced as soon as possible before 5 April 1981 when the present schemes are due to end.
      Mr. Hicks: Will my hon. Friend confirm that, in the view of his Department, the job release scheme was very cost-effective as well as being socially desirable? Would he not agree that in areas such as Cornwall, where the average age of people in work tend to be high, by further extending this scheme he could be making a major attempt to alleviate local unemployment?
      Mr. Lester: Yes. I can confirm that we believe that it is a very cost-effective scheme. We regretted the change that we had to make which arose first and foremost because the previous Government made the change in an election year and provided no money for that change, and, secondly, because legislation was required to deal with the tax point. As my hon. Friend knows, we protected the position of the disabled by retaining the age of 60. We shall bear his points in mind.
      Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Will the hon. Gentleman take the proposition more seriously? Will he not accept that there is a particularly high level of unemployment because of the present system among this age group? Will he not agree that the high level of unemployment has made

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      nonsense of all the statistics so far produced about the cost of reducing the age of retirement and introducing flexible retirement schemes?
      Mr. Lester: Yes. It is part of an overall package of measures. One has to decide which of the measures within the package is providing most support at any one time, whether for young people, for people in temporary work or for this type of job replacement.

      Unemployed Persons
      Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Employment by how much unemployment has risen since May 1979.
      Mr. Prior: Between May 1979 and October 1980 the number of people registered as unemployed in the United Kingdom, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, increased by 586,600.
      Mr. Jones: Does the right hon. Gentleman understand that we in the regions are terrified at the prospect of another massive rise in unemployment? Does he realise that in Wales the steel, textiles and paper-making industries are pitifully vulnerable under this Government's policies? When will the Government change their policies and give some hope and some aid to our communities?
      Mr. Prior: I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's concern. It is shared by many hon. Friends on both sides of the House.
      Mr. Cryer: Do something about it.
      Mr. Prior: There has not been any alternative but to take the measures on steel that have been taken. The hon. Gentleman will know that we have pumped into the steel industry this year, at enormous cost, getting on for £1,000 million and that, until we achieve a steel industry that is as efficient as that of our competitors, we shall be in trouble. It is not a question of a Government turning a blind eye to the steel industry. We have put in a great deal of money.
      Mr. Alton: Is the Secretary of State aware that unemployment in my constituency is now in the region of 34 per cent. and that in the city of Liverpool over 100,000 people are out of work? Is he also aware that people in the city of Liverpool and on Merseyside are angry
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      at the sort of prevarications of the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister in suggesting that we should create a nation of Dick Whittingtons in which people go off to seek their fortune? Will the Secretary of State tell the House where the people of Liverpool are supposed to go to find these jobs?
      Mr. Prior: I have never said that people can move as easily as that from one part of the country to another. I recognise the difficulties. I recently had a very good meeting—a very understanding meeting—with members of the Liverpool council. It put important matters to me which I am considering. I was only sorry that on that occasion we were not joined by the Labour group.
      Sir Anthony Meyer: Will my right hon. Friend exert his great influence in Cabinet to ensure that the cuts in Government expenditure, which are certainly necessary in order to release resources for the private sector, fall none the less on current consumption rather than on future investment wherein lies the hope of jobs for the future?
      Mr. Prior: I am certain that my hon. Friend is right. One of the problems of the last 10 years was that too often capital expenditure was cut and current expenditure was left intact.
      Mr. Frank Allaun: Does the Secretary of State accept that any further cuts in housing, education and health are bound to increase unemployment? Does he support further cuts?
      Mr. Prior: It is most important for the Government to bring their own expenditure under control. That means taking tight control of public sector salaries and wages this winter. If we can then bring down the public sector borrowing requirement that will enable interest rates to fall and employment to expand.
      Mr. Forman: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the deliberate creation of unemployment is no part of the Government's policy and that hundreds of thousands of people, including young people, are being helped under the Government's programmes and being kept off the unemployment register?
      Mr. Prior: A total of 470,000 people are being helped through Government

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      programmes, including the youth opportunities programme. It is no part of the Government's policy to create unemployment. It is a part of the Government's policy to bring down the rate of inflation. Without bringing down the rate of inflation we stand no long-term chance of curing the unemployment problem. Our efforts are designed in the long term to achieve soundly based full employment.

      Preston
      Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the current rate of unemployment in the Preston travel-to-work area.
      Mr. Jim Lester: At 9 October, the provisional unemployment rate in the Preston travel-to-work area was 8'7 per cent.
      Mr. Atkins: Does my hon. Friend accept that I do not find that figure particularly pleasant—indeed, I find it quite the reverse? In view of the commitment by companies as successful as British Aerospace and Leyland Vehicles, does he believe that an enterprise zone on the site of the soon-to-be "former Preston docks" is a good idea?
      Mr. Lester: Of course I accept that no rate of unemployment is acceptable or pleasant for any hon. Member. My hon. Friend's suggestion is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. I understand that a site is under consideration. I shall pass on my hon. Friend's views.
      Mr. Stan Thorne: Reference has been made to productivity and pay. In view of the high productivity and low pay in the textile industry in the Preston area may we have an explanation for the closures there?
      Mr. Lester: No one claims that pay is the only factor affecting the industry and unemployment. Pay is a critical factor in many industries, but it has never been a factor in the textile industry. The factors in the textile industry are the transfer of technology, goods coming in from developing countries and the failure to link production to products which people want to buy, such as light-weight suits. The problem has existed for many years. It is not recent.

      Leicester
      Mr. Greville Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many men and how many women are registered as unemployed in the city of Leicester.
      Mr. Jim Lester: At 9 October, the provisional numbers of males and females registered as unemployed in the Leicester employment office area were 11,574 and 5,198 respectively.
      Mr. Janner: Although the energy, initiative and ingenuity of Leicester people have kept the level of unemployment below the disaster level which exists in some other areas, is the Minister aware that they are experiencing the highest unemployment level since the 1930s and that about 18,000 people are desperate for work in that area? Is he aware that most of them come from traditional industries such as the knitwear, footwear, hosiery and engineering industries which represent a roll call of doom? What is the Minister prepared to do to help?
      Mr. Lester: Many such people faced a similar future under the hon. and learned Gentleman's Government. It is not a question simply of Government assistance. Up to August 1980, £1·6 million in assistance was given to 99 projects in the knitwear industry. A further £2·5 million was given to selective investment schemes and £3·3 million is earmarked for 1980–81 under the urban programme. It is a question not of the Government failing to finance and support but of what the industry is able to do to improve design and create the products that many people buy from other countries.
      Mr. Farr: Is my hon. Friend aware that many of the traditional industries which are efficient are being hit by low-priced imports from countries such as the United States of America? Will he examine an application for such imports to be regulated on a fair basis?
      Mr. Lester: The Secretary of State for Trade constantly examines cases of unfair competition and dumping. I understand that the EEC has approval to suspend 27 cases of low-cost imports through member States. That question has been raised before in relation to the textile

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      industry. Of course we shall do anything to prevent unfair competition and cheating which damage our industry.
      Mr. Jim Marshall: Will the Minister and his colleagues stop shedding crocodile tears for the unemployed in Leicester and elsewhere in the United Kingdom? Will they make it clear to the unemployed in Leicester that unemployment and the threat of unemployment is a deliberate instrument of the Government's economic policy? Does he agree that the only hope for the unemployed of Leicester and of the United Kingdom as a whole is either the early demise of the Tory Government or a radical change in their economic policies?
      Mr. Lester: I assume that the Government in whom the hon. Gentleman served had the same policy since they doubled the rate of unemployment when they were in power.

      Northern Region
      Dr. David Clarkasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest unemployment figures for the Northern region.
      Mr. Jim Lester: At 9 October, the provisional number of people registered as unemployed in the Northern region was 160,856.
      Dr. Clark: Will the Minister admit that those are the worst figures since the 1930s and that the position is becoming worse daily? Did the hon. Gentleman see the "Jobless Britain" total in The Sunday Times last week which featured seven major closures in the Tyne and Wear area? When shall we see some positive action from the Government to alleviate unemployment?
      Mr. Lester: I paid a visit to the hon. Gentleman's constituency during the recess and he knows that I understand the great difficulties in the Northern region caused by the structural change which has had to take place and which is continuing. He asks what help the Government can give, but he knows that the Northern region receives the highest per capita aid in absolute and personal terms. It is higher than that of Scotland or Wales, and it is needed. The problem is not one simply of aid but of the structural change from the major engineering industries to the new technology indus-
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      tries which the hon. Gentleman was happy to show me when I visited the area.
      Sir William Elliott: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the last 12 months in the Northern region 145 new or reallocated factories have provided 3,500 jobs? Is he aware that in Tyne and Wear alone 70 new factories have provided 1,400 new jobs? Is he further aware that in Team Valley, the oldest trading estate of all, 200 factories are now providing 17,000 jobs? Does he agree that diversification is the future strength of the Northern region and will he continue to encourage its development?
      Mr. Lester: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. The Northern region has made great strides in changing its industrial base. It is often said that the Newcastle area is full of depression and gloom although anybody who goes there knows that it has great vitality. New and exciting projects are taking place. That is a far better way to attract jobs to the Northern region than constantly to dwell on figures.
      Mr. Foster: Does the Minister realise that in 18 months his Government have succeeded in reversing 18 years of positive regional development by successive Governments?
      Mr. Lester: I do not realise that for one moment. We have expanded special measures in terms of trading and help in the Northern region. No reduction in grants has taken place. The area receives higher per capita assistance than either Scotland or Wales. There is a limit to the policy of putting money into a region and imagining that it will solve the problem.

      Unemployed Persons
      Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for Employment by how much unemployment has increased since May 1979.
      Mr. Prior: Between May 1979 and October 1980 the number of people registered as unemployed in the United Kingdom, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, increased by 586,000.
      Mr. Dormand: In spite of what was said in answer to the last question, and in spite of what the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Sir W. Elliott) said, is the Minister aware that

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      the biggest regional increase in unemployment has taken place in the North, and that the unemployment rate there continues to be the greatest in the country? Is he further aware that 37,000 redundancies have taken place so far this year compared with 15,000 for the whole of last year?
      Will the Secretary of State therefore set up a commission to consider the special problems of the North—they are different from those of other parts of the country—with an instruction that it report within three months on action to be taken? Does he realise that the area is rapidly becoming an industrial desert because of the Government's great lack of concern?
      Mr. Prior: The hon. Gentleman knows that I am, of course, aware of the factors he has described. The decision to set up a commission would be a matter for the whole Goverment. I shall draw his suggestion to the attention of my colleagues, but I am not certain that we need a commission. Rather we need an upturn in the economy.
      Mr. Trippier: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many firms in the textile and footwear industries which receive temporary short-time working compensation have already claimed the maximum amount allowable of six months per employee? What plans has he either to expand or renew this scheme in order to avoid widespread redundancies for these two industries?
      Mr. Prior: I am aware of these points and I know that they are creating a serious situation for some firms. The question is for how long "temporary" can be construed as being temporary, but I am examining the position further to see whether, given the tough restrictions on Government financing, there is any way in which we can help.
      Mr. Ashley: Is the Minister aware that the pottery industry, which is very efficient, has particularly good labour relations and exports nearly half its products, has suffered an increase in unemployment of nearly 100 per cent. in one year, and that the rate is still rising? Is it not shocking to be destroying a fine industry like that? What does the Secretary of State propose to do about it?
      Mr. Prior: There is no question of the Government seeking to destroy the pottery industry. We want to keep all these industries going as best we can. However, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, one of the factors that the pottery industry has to face is the very high exchange rate which affects its exports. That is bound up with high interest rates, and until we get the public sector borrowing requirement under control we shall suffer.
      Mr. Thompson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the concentration of aid in certain areas is inhibiting the creation of new jobs in others?
      Mr. Prior: That is always the problem with regional assistance. It is also one of the reasons why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry suggested that some areas should be taken out of regional assistance. It is one of the inevitable facts, but it is also important that we should give special aid in special areas.
      Mr. Varley: Can the Secretary of State for Employment tell us of any action that he has taken in the past 18 months either to save or create jobs?
      Mr. Prior: Yes, I could certainly give a number of instances, but I shall give just one. When we came to office the youth opportunities programme was running at 190,000 places a year. It is now running at 300,000. I could go on for quite a while, but that is one answer.

      Young Persons
      Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Employment what schemes are under consideration by his Department to assist with the employment prospects of young people.
      Mr. Prior: I have been considering with the Manpower Services Commission what more can be done to help the young unemployed, and an announcement will be made in due course.
      Mr. McNair-Wilson: Does my right hon. Friend have any plans to breathe new life into apprenticeships? Does he think that a more flexible entry at 17 or 17½ might give a new impetus?
      Mr. Prior: That is a very important issue. We are giving a lot of consideration to it. I hope in the new Session

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      of Parliament to bring forward at least a consultative document on the whole question of training. I am at the moment consulting the Manpower Services Commission. A review is under way. I hope that announcements will be not long delayed.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Since we care less for our young people than the other countries in Europe care about theirs, and since we want to run down the size of the work force, is there not much to be said for obligatory training and education of those aged 16 to 19, with proper maintainance grants provided, in order to deal with both issues?
      Mr. Prior: These matters are being considered. I am well aware of them. The proportion of 16- to 18-year-olds trained here is smaller than in any other country, and that is a disgrace for a nation of Britain's stature. We should try to put it right.

      Redundancies
      Miss Wrightasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many redundancies were notified to his Department in the months of July, August and September in (a) Birmingham and (b) the West Midlands.
      Mr. Jim Lester: The number of redundancies in Birmingham notified to my Department and confirmed by the Manpower Services Commission as likely to occur are as follows: in July, 1,560; August 1,040; September, 1,184. The figures for the West Midlands are: July, 6,136; August, 8,558; September, 4,324. These figures are provisional and are redundancies involving 10 or more employees.
      Miss Wright: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I sympathise considerably with him over the difficulty he must have in persuading his Cabinet colleagues to adopt a stance less like that of the legendary ostrich in relation to the catastrophic state of industry in this country and particularly in the West Midlands? Taking into account the figures he has just given what hope can the hon. Gentleman offer my constituents and others in the West Midlands of an upturn in industry that will enable the many thousands who have been made redundant in the past year once more to provide for their families at an adequate level?
      Mr. Lester: The position of the West Midlands is aggravated because it has a much higher level of manufacturing industry than other parts of the country. When there is a recession it is inevitable that that is where the blows first strike. However, the West Midlands is a very important manufacturing centre for the motor car industry, and other parts of the world from Italy to Detroit are suffering problems in respect of that industry.
      The best hope for the recovery of demand in the West Midlands is for people to start buying its manufactured products. I am very encouraged to see that Pressed Steel-Fisher has suspended its voluntary redundancy scheme because of the increased demand for the Morris Ital.
      Mr. Stokes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the redundancies in the private sector in the West Midlands would be more bearable if there were more signs of redundancies in the public sector so that manufacturing industry was not bearing all the suffering?
      Mr. Lester: The Government have made a considerable start in trying to restore the balance between the public and private sectors. Fortunately they have been able to do that without having to resort to redundancies because of the turnover of manpower in the public sector.
      Mrs. Renée Short: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that unemployment in the West Midlands is well above the national average? That is his Government's achievement. Does he realise that not a day goes by in Wolverhampton without news of more redundancies and short-time working? What does he intend to do to help young people, particularly now that he has had a £72 million windfall from the EEC? Will he channel any of it to the Wolverhampton area?
      Mr. Lester: Yes, we will channel it. We shall also continue to maintain the guarantee in the Wolverhampton area that every young person who has not obtained a job by Easter after having left school will get a place in the youth opportunities programme. That guarantee will be maintained. The hon. Lady will have heard from earlier answers of the element of training that we are trying to incorporate in that. The suggestion that the

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      Government have created the unemployment in the West Midlands would also suggest that there is some magical means by which the Government can finance a reduction of unemployment in the West Midlands. The only way to reduce unemployment in the West Midlands is once again to design and produce the products that we want to buy in Britain and to export them successfully.

      Industrial Training
      Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Employment when next he expects to have discussions with the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission about industrial training.
      Mr. Prior: I am often in contact with the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission. I expect to meet him, together with other members of the commission, later this month to discuss future industrial training arrangements.
      Mr. Knox: Does my right hon. Friend agree that much better industrial training facilities should be available for the unemployed to ensure that their period of unemployment is not a complete waste of time, and to ensure also that, when the economy expands again, it will not be restricted by shortages of skilled labour? Does the Manpower Services Commission have plans to expand such industrial training?
      Mr. Prior: The MSC has plans to expand training generally. It is restricted by the amount of money that is available. I am discussing with the commission, which in turn is discussing with others, how to make better use of our existing training resources so that we train people for the jobs that will be required.
      Mr. Christopher Price: When will the Secretary of State make his announcement about training facilities, especially for youngsters? Is he aware of the appalling social disruption caused by young people on the dole, especially in inner London—a problem that becomes worse every day? When will he come forward with plans not only for training, but for training that leads to secure jobs?
      Mr. Prior: As I have tried to say time and again this afternoon, the only way to obtain secure jobs is through an upturn in the economy which produces
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      real jobs. We have to ensure that, in the present recession, we train both youngsters and other people for the jobs that will be required when the economy turns upwards. I announced this afternoon that I hope to be able to make a statement early in the new Session.

      Unemployed Persons
      Mr. Strawasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the level of unemployment, at the latest available date, for (a) Blackburn and (b) the United Kingdom.
      Mr. Jim Lester: At 9 October, the provisional numbers of people registered as unemployed in the Blackburn employment office area and in the United Kingdom were 4,716 and 2,062,866, respectively. The unemployment rates were 9.8 and 8.5 per cent.
      Mr. Straw: Is the Minister aware that unemployment in Blackburn has been rising twice as fast as the national average, that it has virtually doubled since Christmas, and that it is likely to rise again as grants under the temporary short time working compensation scheme come to an end next month and further redundancies feed their way through into the unemployment figures? How many months or years will it be before unemployment in Blackburn drops to the level that it was in May 1979?
      Mr. Lester: No Minister is in the job of forecasting levels of unemployment, either for the whole country or for areas such as Blackburn. We want, and hope to see, things happening in Blackburn that will create new jobs. For example, Mullard is creating new jobs in producing video discs, using new technology. I suspect that the level of unemployment in Blackburn will drop when, as my right hon. Friend said, we achieve an upturn in the economy which will be shared by all the regions.
      Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Meanwhile, will my hon. Friend bring the figure of 9.8 per cent. for the Blackburn area to the attention of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry when he is considering whether to prolong the intermediate development area status for that area?
      Mr. Lester: That is a reasonable point. I undertake to do what my hon. and learned Friend asks.

      Wages Council
      Mr. John Townendasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will now review the wages council, and particularly their regulations affecting school leavers.
      Mr. Mayhew: Wages councils are independent and representative bodies, but the Government keep their operation under review.
      All councils provide for both a minimum adult rate and a minimum rate for young persons. The differential between these rates, and the age at which the adult rate falls due, vary between wages councils, and are important matters which the councils themselves determine.
      Mr. Townend: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the awards by wages councils are against the philosophy of this Government who believe that wage awards should be based on the ability to pay? Does he agree also that recent awards of 25 per cent. by some councils to young people of 16 and 17 have resulted in a reduction of jobs for that age group.
      Mr. Mayhew: Of course wages must depend on the ability to pay. The councils go back to 1909. There is obviously a case for minimum wage orders for workers with few opportunities for collective bargaining. On the other hand, it is important that youngsters should not be denied the oppportunity to have a job because a minimum wage order had been made needlessly high. It is a matter for careful judgement.

      Job Vacancies
      Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he intends to take any further steps to ensure that job vacancies are more widely known; and if he will make a statement.
      Mr. Prior: I am informed by the Manpower Services Commission that the public employment service already has mechanisms for circulating job vacancy information nation-wide. To improve the speed and quality of job vacancy
      1096
      circulation, however, the Manpower Services Commission plans to continue at the fastest practicable pace its current programme to computerise this function in all the more populous areas of Great Britain.
      Mr. Adley: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the excellent work carried out by his Department's Christchurch office in finding work for more than half of those who recently lost their jobs at Shand Kydd? In the light of the tragically high unemployment figures will my right hon. Friend confirm that a large number of those on the unemployment register are on it for a short space of time only?
      Mr. Prior: On my hon. Friend's latter point, the vast majority of people are on and off the register within a month. On his first point, I am grateful to all those who work in the Department of Employment for the help and support that they have given to the Department in what has been a difficult few months for them.

    EUROPEAN COMMUNITY HEADS OF GOVERNMENT
    Mr. Spearingasked the Prime Minister when she next expects to meet the Heads of Government of the member States of the EEC.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): I expect to meet the Heads of Government of the member States of the Community at the next meeting of the European Council, which will take place in Luxembourg on 1 and 2 December.
    Mr. Spearing: Will the Prime Minister assure the House that the informal Heads of Government meeting that she has called the European Council will not on this occasion, or on any other occasion, convert itself into a formal Council of Ministers capable of taking legislative decisions? If any informal decisions are taken, will she confirm that they will be subject to the full scrutiny procedures of the House?
    The Prime Minister: We do not usually take that sort of decision at the European Council of Heads of Government. We try to clear the way for decisions by other councils, subject to the legislative procedures and customs of their own legislative assemblies.
    Mr. John MacKay: When my right hon. Friend meets the Heads of Government will she urge on them the need for the Economic Community to give every possible help to the new Government of Jamaica to try to undo the damage that eighteen and a half years of Socialism has done to Jamaica?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have already sent a message of congratulations to the new Prime Minister of Jamaica. I hope that he will have a very successful period in government and that we shall be able to help him with his objectives.
    Mr. English: As the European Council discusses foreign policy, will it have on its agenda when it meets any question relating to the constitution of Canada, or is that regarded as a matter of internal concern relating only to a member State? If it is of internal concern only to a member State, is it of internal concern only to Britain or to Canada?
    The Prime Minister: I should be very surprised indeed if the European Council had on its agenda the subject of the constitution of Canada. But I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his ingenuity. We have received informal emissaries from the Government of Canada, but so far we have received no formal request about the constitution.

    PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
    Q2. Mr. Pawseyasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 4 November.
    The Prime Minister: This morning I welcomed President Stevens of Sierra Leone and later I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.
    Mr. Pawsey: During the course of my right hon. Friend's busy day, will she take time to reflect on the call by British Leyland shop stewards for an all-out strike against the company's offer of 6·8 per cent.? Will she say what effect that may have on future public funding for British Leyland?
    The Prime Minister: Since British Leyland was taken into the public sector the British taxpayer has provided more than £1,000 million to the company to enable it to get on its feet again. Of the £300 million that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said last December was available for this financial year, £275 million has already been drawn. It will be a tragedy if a strike at British Leyland takes place—a tragedy for those who work there, for the company and for Britain. Many overseas people will say that, just as Britain gets a super car, she goes on strike. That will be very damaging to Britain. In the meantime, we must leave Sir Michael Edwardes in charge, and allow him to do any negotiating that needs to be done.
    Mr. Foot: In view of the reports of Cabinet discussions on the rapidly intensifying economic crisis facing the nation, will the right hon. Lady tell us when the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to introduce his next Budget? Will it be just before the Queen's Speech or just after?
    The Prime Minister: I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was about to ask a really worthwhile question. As is customary at this time of year, the Cabinet is discussing public expenditure with the objective of keeping the total of public spending next year within the amount which has already been published. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that these things take quite a time so he will be able to ask the same question for quite a number of Tuesdays or Thursdays hence.
    Mr. Foot: I thought for a moment that the right hon. Lady was about to give us an informative answer. Will she now tell us whether any fresh proposals about Government action on economic matters will be included in the Queen's Speech and in the statements that she and the Chancellor will make at the time of the Queen's Speech?
    The Prime Minister: The Queen's Speech will take its customary form. I expect that the right hon. Gentleman will be taking a part—perhaps a very prominent part—in the debate.
    Mr. William Shelton: Does my right hon. Friend agree that past inflation bears a heavy responsibility for present

    1099
    unemployment, that the Government cannot reflate their way out of inflation and, therefore, that interest rates should remain at their present level until they can be reduced without being inflationary?
    The Prime Minister: I agree that we cannot possibly deal with unemployment on a long-term basis—indeed, no Government can—until we have thoroughly tackled the question of inflation. Until that is reduced, there is no basis for confidence in the future on the part of industry, which is vital for restoring what we need in order to expand. No one wants interest rates reduced more than I do, but as right hon. and hon. Members will be aware, interest rates would have been higher but for a certain amount of intervention to keep them where they are at present.
    Mr. David Steel: Will the Prime Minister say whether the Government are stumbling into an incomes policy in the public sector only?
    The Prime Minister: No. The right hon. Gentleman must not confuse cash limits with a rigid incomes policy for the public sector. It is always a mystery to me that most women and most small businesses know how to budget within a certain amount of money whereas many Liberal Members do not.
    Mr. Wilkinson: In view of my right hon. Friend's deliberations this morning can she say whether it is still her expectation that the defence expenditure in real terms this financial year will meet an outturn of 3 per cent. increase, and whether that is still the full objective of the Government in the next financial year?
    The Prime Minister: We met that target last year. We are not able to say what the precise outturn this year will be. Of course, we are considering the outturn next year along with all the other programmes. The outturn next year will result in an increase in expenditure over this year.

    PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)

      Cannock Wood
      Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Prime Minister what plans she has for visiting Cannock Wood.
      The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so.
      Mr. Roberts: Is the Prime Minister aware that hundreds of people in Cannock Wood who voted Tory in May 1979 did not expect the Tory Government to double inflation, push unemployment well above the 2 million mark, destroy business confidence, wreck local government services and raise interest rates to an all-time high. What message does she now have for those electors in Cannock Wood except "More of the same and worse"?
      The Prime Minister: My message is, first, that the people of Cannock Wood must be pleased that the Government are taking a firm line on reducing inflation and, secondly, that they will be the first to understand that demands for enormously high pay lead to high unemployment. I am sure that they will be the first to argue against that and be critical of people who strike their way on to the dole. Thirdly, I hope to have the hon. Gentleman's support, if he wants to see interest rates reduced, for trying to keep public spending down so that in the longer run we can keep interest rates down.

    PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 4 November.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave earlier.
    Mr. McNamara: Does the right hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment ever reflect upon the old adage "penny wise, pound foolish"? Is she aware that as a result of the moratorium on council contracts, essential fire precautions for hostels for the homeless within the city of Hull cannot now go ahead, thus increasing bed and breakfast costs for the local authority; that during the coming winter months non-completed council houses will be open to vandals; and that essential work to remedy this situation and to give homes to the people will be denied because of this foolish edict?
    The Prime Minister: Every council must keep within certain spending totals,

    1101
    and there is nothing laudable about spending beyond one's means.
    Mr. John Townend: Having abolished the Clegg commission and suspended the Pay Research Unit, will my right hon. Friend now advise local authorities to take similar action so that a reported 19 per cent. increase for firemen, based on comparability, is stopped this year? Is she aware that if it is not it will undermine the Government's policy of keeping public pay increases within 10 per cent.?
    The Prime Minister: The Government have absolutely no standing in the negotiation of that pay claim, which is done wholly between the firemen and the local authorities. The Government perhaps come in in two respects—first, in the amount that we give in the rate support grant to met that claim, and we have already indicated that amounts will only be within single figures. Secondly, in so far as the Home Office is concerned, the fire inspectorate must agree to any reductions which can fully and properly take place within proper fire safety regulations. Otherwise, it is wholly up to the local authorities. I hope that they will have due and proper regard for the great sacrifices that must now be made by the private sector.
    Mr. Sheerman: As the Prime Minister has tragedies in British industry so much on her mind, will she spend some time today thinking of the tragedy of ICI, which for the first time in its history has failed to make a profit? Will she consider the thousands of jobs in the organics division which it is now planning to cut in the coming weeks and months, and also the people, such as those in my own constituency, who will be hard hit by more and more redundancies?
    1102
    is the effect it might have on reducing the high exchange rate. But first we must secure the co-operation of hon. Members in trying to reduce public expenditure so that we can reduce public sector borrowing, and therefore, high interest rates.
    Mr. Watson: In view of the continuing high level of interest rates, and the need to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement, will the Prime Minister again examine the case for a tax upon the windfall profits of the major clearing banks?
    The Prime Minister: I am certain that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor will be considering all methods of reducing the public sector borrowing requirement.
    Mr. Woolmer: As the unemployment rate has apparently increased much faster than the Prime Minister thought, can she say when she expects unemployment to rise above 2½ million? Can she also say whether a further round of tax rises and public expenditure cuts will reduce unemployment or increase it?
    The Prime Minister: With regard to forecasts on unemployment, I follow the well-established precedents of the right hon. Members for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), and Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot). I do not give forecasts on unemployment. With regard to cuts in public spending, as all public spending has, ultimately, to be financed out of the productive sector, most of which is the private sector, the more resources that we put into the public sector the less there is available to purchase goods in the private sector, which is where unemployment is likely to rise.

    STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
    Ordered,
    That the Value Added Tax (Health) Order 1980 he referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. [Mr. Wakeham.]

FOOD AND DRUGS (AMENDMENT)
3.31 pm
Mr. Gerry Neale: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to the making of home-made jam, preserves and other foodstuffs for sale to the public.
I wish to draw to the attention of the House the Food and Drugs Act 1955 and to make clear that the position under it is now totally ludicrous. I draw attention particularly to section 16 of the Act, which deals with the preparation and manufacture of certain foodstuffs in the home and in other premises and which relates particularly to sausages and potted, pressed, pickled and preserved foods that are intended for sale. The Act requires not only that those premises must be inspected but that they must be registered with the local health authorities.
Superficially, it may be said that my interest and that of some of my hon. Friends in this matter is the ability of ladies throughout the country to make jams. The problem relates to the ability of local branches of voluntary organisations to make money to further the ends of their organisations by making at home various foodstuffs and then raising money by selling them.
The problem has arisen because a local authority in Stockton-on-Tees has now, in its wisdom, decided that the Act also relates to the making of jams at home, and therefore requires all household kitchens to be inspected by local health authority inspectors and to be registered. I suggest that that gives rise to the most ludicrous bureaucratic intentions of local authorities. Despite tremendous pressure by organisations such as the women's institutes, press and television, the National Farmers Union, and even by the Secretary of State, Stockton-on-Tees council continues to hold that view. It is clear that the 1955 Act never intended that requirement to relate to domestic kitchens.
Local organisations have been thrown into considerable confusion by the decision. I therefore suggest to the House that the implications are more profound than one would otherwise imagine. If we are not careful, it will result in the loss of income of about £10 million per
1104
annum to various voluntary organisations. The women's institutes raise about £1 million from 415 markets which they hold throughout the country. Beyond that, they have about 9,000 branches, comprising about 500,000 members, which also hold events of that sort. They are obliged to publish a comprehensive document covering the legalistic requirements of making home-made jams and so on, which surely points out the ridiculous stage that we have reached. In a constituency such as mine, in Cornwall, where the Royal National Life-boat Institution has many branches—throughout the country it has 2,000 branches, raising about £3½ million—such organisations raise money for which responsibility would otherwise fall on the Secretary of State for Trade.
Perhaps one of the greatest areas in which this element is important is that of education. It has recently been established in a survey conducted by The Times Educational Supplement that about £23 million is raised by parents for schools. In many instances, they are doing so through the production of jams and preserves. It is reasonable to suppose that a considerable percentage of that money comes from that type of production. If it is prevented, presumably the difference will have to be made up by the Department of Education. I could go on. into the area of the Department of the Environment, where local community groups make up the sums of money that go towards the repair of buildings, the cost of which would otherwise fall on the Secretary of State for the Environment.
There is a party political aspect, in that many of the political organisations raise money by holding bring-and-buy stalls. In Cornwall, there are about 200 branches of organisations representing the Conservative cause. I have no doubt that the Liberal Party, too, has a number of branches or organisations in that part of the world producing jams. I should like to be charitable to the Labour Party, but it is finding it difficult to be charitable to itself at the moment. There must be about 13,000 such branches of one party or another which are producing this type of article.
If it were suggested that the Catering Department of the House of Commons were to be supplied in future with homemade jams from the women's institutes,

1105
I hardly imagine that hon. Members would fear for their health or safety, or dare to suggest to such an august body that the jams were tainted or unsuitable for consumption. I would even suggest that on a future occasion, you, Mr. Speaker, might sample some of the homemade jam with your tea. I would even seek to offer you such a sample if it would not be taken as a means of catching your eye.
We can laugh and take the matter lightly, but when we examine it we find that it gives rise to considerable implications. I therefore ask the House to consent to the introduction of this Bill in order to remove the uncertainty that is being created among voluntary organisations which go to a great deal of trouble to raise money and in order to remove an absurd and unnecessary bureacratic inhibition on such organisations, which we should seek to encourage in every way. I ask the House to support the introduction of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerry Neale, Mr. John Carlisle, Mr. Michael Latham and Mr. Harry Greenaway.

FOOD AND DRUGS (AMENDMENT)
Mr. Gerry Neale accordingly presented a Bill to amend the law relating to the making of home-made jam, preserves and other foodstuffs for sale to the public, and for purposes connected therewith: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 269.]

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (PRODUCT LIABILITY)
[Document R/611/77 is also relevant.]
3.40 pm
The Minister for Consumer Affairs (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim): I beg to move,
That this House notes Community Documents Nos. R/2237/76 and 9427/79 relating to the draft Directive on the approximation of laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States concerning liability for defective products; and urges the Government to ensure that during further consideration full account is taken of the arguments that people injured by defective products should be entitled to adequate and prompt compensation and that undue burdens should not be imposed on industry.
Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow).
Mrs. Oppenheim: The 22nd report of the House of Commons Select Committee on European legislation recommended that the important matters of policy and principle arising from the amended draft directive should be debated by the House. I am pleased that time has been made available for this important debate and for the opportunity of stating the Government's position.
"The Government are sympathetic to this proposal and believe that it would be an important and widely welcomed reform in civil law. However, in the light of the many rep-repsentations made … they are also aware of the anxiety in industry about the possible effect of this change on competitiveness and the introduction of new products, about the possible burden on small firms and about the special problems for some product sectors. Before reaching any final decision, therefore, I am arranging further detailed consultation with industry in order to assess these potential problems and to examine how the principle of strict liability might be implemented in such a way that the interest of the consumer and of industry are equitably balanced."—[Official Report. 2 August 1978; Vol. 955, c. 347.]
Much as I would like to claim the approbation of my hon. Friends—and, indeed, the disapproval of Labour Members—for that statement, it is not my own; it is a statement by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), the former Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, in a Written Answer referring, among other matters, to the subject of product liability.
Mr. John Smith: Will the right hon. Lady reflect that all that was wrong with that joke was that no disapproval was shown on the Opposition Benches?
Mrs. Oppenheim: All the better, for, by the time we assumed office in May 1979 no further statement had been made, from which it will be seen that no firm line on the subject had been taken by the previous Government when we took over. The position of this Government is somewhat less equivocal. It is as follows: we have taken careful note of the support that many of our partners have given to the principle underlying the draft directive. We accept that there are advantages in establishing a common system of liability throughout the Community.
To this end, we are willing to negotiate constructively with our partners on the basis of the Commission's present draft. But in our view the draft does not strike a proper balance between the interests of injured victims and the interests of producers and cannot be accepted as it stands. Indeed, it is clear that none of our partners is prepared to accept the draft in this way. For this reason, one of the most important improvements that we shall be seeking is the incorporation of the "state of the art" defence. A major objective will be the achievement of a common regime.
This means that, subject to our getting satisfaction on a number of important conditions, we would accept the introduction of a Community regime for strict liability. However, it follows naturally that we cannot take a final view on this matter until the precise nature of that regime has been clarified in further negotiations.
As the House will be aware, product liability has been the subject of consideration and recommendation by the Strasbourg convention, by the Royal Commission and by two Law Commissions, so the draft directive does not break entirely new ground. However, it is right that the House should be given the opportunity to debate this important issue, and I shall listen carefully to the views of hon. Members. I note the absence of Labour Members. No doubt they are engaged today in what they regard as much more important business.
1108
It is natural that, as the Minister for Consumer Affairs, my first consideration is the position of the injured victim.
I believe, as I am sure does the whole House, that consumers have the right to expect that products that are bought and are used correctly will not kill or injure them. At the same time, I am aware of the need to strike a balance wherein the burdens on industry are not excessive, inhibiting or outweighing the benefits to consumers.
Mr. Tim Sainsbury: In the light of what my right hon. Friend has just said about the injured victim and the safety of the victim, is she implying that she is in favour of only physical injury being covered, or pecuniary injury, as is proposed in the directive?
Mrs. Oppenhiem: I shall be returning later in my remarks to the question of negotiations on the directive. I hope, with the leave of the House, that I shall be able to reply briefly to the debate. I can then deal with points raised in the debate. At present, I should like to concentrate chiefly on the two important issues to which we draw particular attention in the motion.
I know that a number of my hon. Friends and others are deeply concerned at the implications of the draft directive and feel that the costs, to which I shall return later, will place an unbearable burden on industry and will inhibit innovation and efficiency.
I say to my hon. Friends that I am aware of these concerns, and to a certain extent I share them. I have consulted very widely indeed, and I can assure my hon. Friends and those in industry that no directive would be acceptable to the Government—nor would it be in the interests of consumers—which had those consequences.
As for their concern that the burdens of a new product liability regime are not acceptable, in particular at a time of recession and other pressures on industry, I can again reassure them that no directive is likely to be imposed in the near future. Inevitably, as a result of the complexity of the negotiations, to some aspects of which I shall refer later, which reflect concerns not only of this Government but of many other member States, the negotiations will inevitably be protracted, and it is likely to be years and

1109
not months before the directive is adopted, let alone implemented.
To those who may call upon the Government to reject outright either the principle or the directive, I point out that this would be neither possible nor wise.
If the Government were to reject the principle—as some want us to do—which the Government do not, or if we were to press ahead with our own legislation as others want us to we would be left with a disastrously weakened negotiating position in relation to the draft directive, over which we would have little or no influence, and we would miss the opportunity of a common product liability regime throughout the Community, which both industry and the consumer groups agree is a highly desirable prerequisite to any advance in product liability legislation—not only for the obvious practical reasons, or because of the obvious disadvantages of a fragmented approach, but also to ensure that British industry is not placed at a competitive disadvantage with other member States.
To those who fear that the directive may be in conflict with or replace existing law in this country, I can also give reassurance. Our law is continually developing. The draft directive represents not a basic alteration in our law but a complement to it.
For years, consumers in this country have had the benefit of strict liability against the supplier under the Sale of Goods Act, recently strengthened by the Unfair Contract Terms Act, under which there is no state of the art defence. This right, however, does not extend to third parties—those who are injured by goods but who did not purchase them in the first place.
Alongside the Sale of Goods Act rights, consumers have also had the right of redress through common law—the tort of negligence. Increasingly, the interpretation of this by the courts has been that negligence is assumed, as in the celebrated snail in the ginger beer bottle case.
Mr. John Smith: There have been more recent cases.
Mrs. Oppenheim: There have been more recent cases, and I shall come to them later. But the absence of negligence
1110
is still, in theory, a defence. Therefore, a consumer injured by a new product with, for example, a design fault—a product he or she had not personally purchased—might be left with no compensation.
There was a fairly recent case, I believe in Scotland, where a person fell off the platform of a newly designed bus because there was no central pillar which he could hold for safety. The case was not successful in the courts. This vacuum would be filled by the draft directive, or by the final directive, which would provide a complementary but not radically different third alternative of redress to consumers and third parties injured by defective products.
In no way would I wish to see any regime that undermined the law of tort in this country, which is part of the fabric of our society, depending as it does on the philosophy of duty and personal responsibility.
Naturally, I speak of these legal matters with due diffidence, since I am aware that a number of hon. and learned Members with far more expertise in the matter than I, based on years of experience in the field, will wish to contribute to the debate and will no doubt be able to regale the House with a number of anecdotes from their experience.
I fear that the only example of which I know from personal experience contributes nothing to the legal arguments. It concerns a friend of mine who, not long ago, discovered a slug in a bottle of Guinness which she was served across a counter. As an animal lover, she was far more concerned about the condition of the slug than the state of the Guinness, so any redress that she may have sought would have been through the RSPCA rather than the courts.
I turn now to the importance that the Government attach to the inclusion of a state of the art defence in the final directive, as do a number of other member States. The European Parliament has said that it would be wrong to impose this burden on manufacturers and has voted for a state of the art defence, but that was subsequently overturned by the Commission.
The Solicitor-General in the previous Labour Government appeared to make it clear that the Labour Government also

1111
supported that view. In a debate on civil liability and personal injury on 17 November 1978, in answer to an intervention by my hon. and learned Friend the present Solicitor-General, referring to his earlier intervention in favour of a state of the art defence, the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the previous Government not only agreed that there should be a state of the art defence but that the directive should so be amended. His words were:
"With that I wholly agree, and with that the Government"—
the previous Labour Government—
"are certainly in agreement."—[Official Report, 17 November 1978; Vol. 958, c. 874.]
Therefore, this Government are by no means alone in seeking this change in the draft directive.
The Government have considered this problem very carefully. We are conscious of the need to protect the consumer, particularly the innocent victim of a defective product that he or she has not purchased. At the same time, we recognise the benefits that consumers as a whole derive from innovation. We also recognise the importance of encouraging British industry to innovate, because it is on innovation that our industrial success has been based. We believe that it is important, therefore, that a state of the art defence should be included in any product liability directive, and we shall seek to persuade those of our partners who do not already do so to accept such a defence.
Mr. Greville Janner: Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. Oppenheim: I return also to the burden of costs and who shall bear them. No one knows precisely what the costs will be—no insurer can be expected to quote insurance rates until the final directive is determined—but we know that the costs will vary from industry to industry and within industries according to the reliability of the company concerned, and also if and when new precedents are set in the courts. This is a matter about which industry is very concerned, and I can understand that concern.
However, international companies exporting to or operating in the United States already know what premiums they
1112
pay. Everybody accepts that the premiums occasioned by the directive will be much less than those paid in relation to the American market, first, because the draft directive, even as it stands, does not propose a regime like the disastrous American experience—I hope that we have all learnt lessons from that experience—and, secondly, because our courts are very different from the American courts in the absence of punitive damages and the scale of damages awarded, and our legal profession is very different from the American legal profession, where lawyers sometimes share in the benefits of the damages won.
Naturally, industry is concerned, as are we, to ensure that whatever costs are incurred are not crippling, not least because these increased costs are bound to be passed on to consumers in increased prices to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the competitive forces operating at the time. Therefore, all consumers will be contributing through the prices that they pay for the compensation to a few unfortunate injured victims. I do not think that anyone would quarrel with that concept.
Mr. Janner rose——
Mrs. Oppenheim: I spoke earlier of the many matters which will be inevitably the subject of protracted negotiations on the draft directive. I cannot mention them all, but they include a number of important issues—some recommended by the Law Commission—such as the definition of the state of the art defence, the definition of "defect", the application to primary and processed foods, the problem of components and many others. There is the question of the financial limits for liability and of the 10-year period.
Mr. Michael Latham: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mrs. Oppenheim: Yes.
Mr. Janner: Oh!
Mr. Latham: Perhaps my right hon. Friend will give way afterwards to the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner). Will my right hon. Friend consider one other matter among the many others, namely, the state of the printing industry? Does she agree that

1113
it would be intolerable if printing companies, such as those in my constituency that have written to me about this matter, were to be saddled with responsibility for repeating the words given to them by the writers of books?
Mrs. Oppenheim: My hon. Friend, as always, is extremely prescient. because I shall be coming to that point later.
Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. Lady be kind enough to give way to me now?
Mrs. Oppenheim: I will, indeed.
Mr. Janner: I thank the right hon. Lady for her chivalry. Earlier, she referred to the support that she had received in various quarters for retaining or introducing the state of the art defence. Also, she referred to the Law Commission in another context. Is it not right that the Royal Commission on civil liability—the Pearson Commission—and both the Law Commissions considered this matter and said that, if we included the state of the art defence, it would destroy the very root of the product liability legislation, as it is needed to protect ordinary people who cannot afford to go to the courts in this country?
Mrs. Oppenheim: The hon. and learned Gentleman has just demonstrated how right I was not to give way to him in the first place. No doubt he will raise this important point in the debate if he catches Mr. Speaker's eye. As I said, with the permission of the House, I hope to wind up the debate. I shall then deal with points that may be made in the debate. It is true, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said, that many people have supported the state of the art of defence—many of the member States, the European Parliament and the Solicitor-General in the previous Labour Government. I point that out in balance.
I come to the point that I was about to mention before the intervention—the financial limits for liability and of the 10-year period during which manufacturers are liable. Both these matters are bound to raise considerable problems during the negotiations on the draft directive. Then there are the questions of contributory negligence and recall, which also have to be resolved, and to which the report of the Select Committee has drawn special attention. There is the very
1114
vexed problem of imported products from outside the Community, where no adequate insurance is carried. There is the question of damage to personal property. The Government at present take the view that this should not be included, since people can reasonably be expected to insure their own property. There is the question of liability for printers' errors—referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Latham) and a number of hon. Members—and bookbinding. It would clearly be absurd if either were included, but at present, perhaps inadvertently, they may be. Therefore, my hon. Friend the Member for Melton is quite right to express disquiet.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: It is not a question of printers' errors; it is a question of printers printing what they are actually given to print. They reproduce it accurately. So far as they are concerned, they have got it right. They may then find themselves in a very invidious position.
Mrs. Oppenheim: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is the situation that makes the present inclusion of printers even worse. As I have said, it is manifestly absurd. It will obviously be the subject of negotiation.
There is also the need to avoid undermining the professional position of doctors and ancillary medical services, and of pharmacists, and the relationship between doctors and patients. I have listened patiently to the cases of both, and I am convinced that this is a matter of concern to the profession which we shall clearly need to examine in considerable detail.
These are just some of the matters that will be the subject of negotiations on our part and on the part of other member States, from which it will be seen that the final outcome cannot be for some considerable time. We have considered carefully the views of the Law Commission, of the Royal Commission on civil liability and compensation for personal injury, of the several hundred representative bodies that replied to our invitation to comment on the draft directive last year, and of the numerous trade associations, companies and individuals who have written to my colleagues and to me and to hon. Members on both sides of the House over the past year.

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I believe that, if there is a sensible move towards strict product liability, it will not only provide consumers with redress that is denied them at present but will gradually influence companies in the right direction, which is to strive for higher safety standards, higher quality and better quality control, which will be of benefit both to consumers and to the economy as a whole. But innovation and efficiency must be safeguarded, and costs cannot be crippling. As I have said, we shall play a constructive and not an obstructive part in the negotiations, in order to get the best possible directive. We shall seek to amend the draft directive so that it reflects a fair balance between the interests of consumers and producers, which the terms of the motion set out.
It is a delicate balance that must embody both justice and fairness, both worthy objectives, for which we shall strive.
4.4 pm
Mr. John Smith: In her speech, the right hon. Lady, as I understood it, gave a tentative and rather tepid welcome to the principle of extending the liability of manufacturers of defective products, but in her statement that the Government would press for a state of the art defence I think she did a great deal to erode the concept of strict liability for defective products. As the Law Commisions pointed out in their careful reports on this subject, it is extremely hard to have a state of the art defence and the principle of strict liability running side by side if it is to mean anything in practice.
What I think the House has to do in this debate is to consider both the general question whether there ought to be an extension of the liability of manufacturers of defective products, either on a national basis or on a Council of Europe or EEC basis, and to look in particular at the documents from the EEC Commission which are referred to in the motion and give some guidance to the Government in their negotiations with other member States on how these matters should be proceeded with.
For my part, I think that the question of principle that underlines this must be faced by all those who take part
1116
in this debate. Are they in favour of extending the liability of a manufacturer of a defective product to a person injured on the lines that are generally regarded as product liability? It has sometimes been advertised as a major new departure. I do not think that it is of such major consequence as some of its opponents make out. As the right hon. Lady mentioned, strict liability is not a novel concept in law. Indeed, it is a familiar concept in many areas in which actions for damages for personal injuries are brought.
I come down basically in favour of the principle of there being product liability. That was the view not only of the Pearson commission but of the English and Scottish Law Commissions, as well as of the Council of Europe and the EEC Commission. As I understand the proposition, it involves the imposition of strict liability upon the manufacturer of a product for defects in the product. As I also understand the present position, if one buys an article one has protection. If Mr. A buys an article from shopkeeper B and there is a defect from which he sustains injury, he may well be able to sue the shopkeeper, and probably will be able to sue him, on the basis of the law of contract. But if he gives over the defective object to his wife and she suffers the same injury, she will not be able to sue the shopkeeper who sold Mr. A the product because she has no contractual relationship with the shopkeeper.
We have to ask ourselves whether it is fair that Mr. A has a remedy in that situation when his wife does not, when they have suffered the same injuries from the same defect in the same product. I find very little difficulty in answering that question on the lines of saying that Mr. A's wife ought to have a remedy. If the law does not provide a remedy for her in that situation, it is time that we set about finding a means of law reform that gives her a remedy.
Mr. Greville Janner: In fact, the wife has a remedy. She can sue in tort or in negligence. She cannot sue in contract. But the trouble with suing in tort or in negligence is that one has to prove fault. That is almost impossible for the ordinary person who cannot command either legal aid or a vast amount of money and who, therefore, cannot get justice without strict liability.
Mr. Smith: I am obliged to my hon. and learned Friend for his intervention, but I was assuming in the course of these examples that it was not possible for either Mr. A or his wife to bring an action on the basis of either tort in England or delict in Scotland. My hon. and learned Friend is quite right. If it were open for people to take an action on the basis of tort, that would be fine, but in this area we are talking of cases in which it is difficult for people to establish a liability based upon fault. In this situation, we ought to consider whether we ought to reform the law. In my opinion, we ought to do so.
If we think about the most relevant case, which gave rise to much of the consideration by the Law Commissions and others, I think that we see the argument demonstrated clearly in the case of the Thalidomide children. Those Thalidomide children would, it was thought, find it difficult to establish a liability based on fault against the Distillers Co. Ltd., which manufactured the product. I think that most people would agree that that was a most unfortunate result. As a result of press campaigns and political pressure, the Distillers Co. Ltd. entered into a voluntary arrangement with the injured people to make an ex gratia out-of-court settlement with them. At least, that is how I understand the position. It would be very unfortunate if no such ex gratia offer had been made and those children had had no compensation.
Therefore, we ought to examine whether the law ought to be amended to give such people the right to compensation. That is the first point. It is a strong argument for introducing strict liability in the manufacture of defective products. That example also illustrates problems about having a state of the art defence. If the company had said in an action based on strict liability that it was a defect that it could not reasonably have known about at the time—it is highly likely that that is what it would have pleaded in its defence——
Mr. Greville Janner: That is what it did plead.
Mr. Smith: In that situation, and at first sight, strict liability would seem to offer a remedy to the Thalidomide children, but that remedy would be snatched
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from them by the application of the state of the art defence. That is an apt illustration of how that defence, which the Government say they will promote in the discussions, takes away a great deal of the advantage that would be achieved by reforming the law on the lines of strict liability.
If injury arises from a defect in a product, on whom should the loss fall? Who should bear the loss? Should it be the person who manufactured the product, who put it into circulation and who presumably gained some profit by so doing? Should he bear the loss and share the loss, as it were, by taking out insurance, the cost of which would no doubt be reflected in the price that consumers would pay for the product, or should the person who suffered the injury alone bear the loss?
I find little difficulty in answering that social and political question. It seems manifestly unfair that the Thalidomide children should bear uniquely the loss that they sustained and not those who manufactured the product that gave rise to their injuries. Perhaps the product has to be increased in price to cover the cost of insurance. That is another way of saying that all consumers should pay the price of the injury that the Thalidomide children suffered rather than the Thalidomide children themselves.
Mr. R. A. McCrindle: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about the Thalidomide case. Will he turn his attention to the deterrent effect that absolute liability would have on the production of successful pharmaceutical products such as penicillin?
Mr. Smith: I shall turn my attention to that aspect. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to use the Thalidomide case to illustrate—I believe it does so meaningfully—the concept of strict liability and the difficulty of a state of the art defence. As a noble Lord said in another place, "Whatever be the arguments for and against, I cannot get the Thalidomide children out of my head." I am sure that we all find that a difficulty when considering the subject.
On grounds of social and political policy as well as legal principle, we would be wise to adopt the concept of strict

1119
liability and apply it to the manufacturers of defective products. In their joint report, the Law Commissions dealt with the issue fully and advanced a number of persuasive reasons why there should be a change in the law. It is not an earth-shattering change. It is an extension of the principle of strict liability.
Surely it is unfair that the injured party alone should have to bear the loss. Having enunciated the principle and agreed to a change in the law, we must consider whether the directive and the amended directive are documents to which the Government should assent or whether there are any changes that should be made to them.
Before dealing with those considerations, I return briefly to some of the matters that the Law Commissions raised on general principle. They commented that in the case of a person who suffered injury in a situation where he cannot prove fault, the loss should lie primarily on the person who created the risk, namely, the manufacturer. That seems to be largely self-evident. Secondly, they stated that liability should be imposed on those in the chain of manufacture and distribution, who are in the best position to exercise control over the quality and safety of the product. Again, that seems to be self-evident. That points towards the manufacturer being saddled with liability.
The Commissions also said that it is desirable that the risk of injury from defective products should be borne by those who can most conveniently insure against it. There is a great deal of sense in that as well. Again, that points to the manufacturer. They advanced another argument which may not be as powerful but which has some validity, namely, that public expectation should be taken into account in determining where a loss should lie. Some surveys appear to indicate that the public think that manufacturers, especially those of branded products, should carry the responsibility. That is not such an important aspect.
The Commissions believed that is was desirable to remove difficulties of a procedural or evidential character that impeded rather than assisted the course of justice. There is nothing worse than claimants running into great evidential difficulties
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in pursuing their case, as those acting on behalf of the Thalidomide children might have faced if they had gone to the courts to have their case tried. The Commissions considered that it should be the policy of the law to discourage unnecessary litigation. The clearer the law is, the more that can be achieved.
The Commissions considered the effect on industry of these policies. That is a matter that we all have to take into account. They felt that if such a change in the law placed an undue competitive disadvantage on British industry, that would have to be weighed in the balance. They felt that the inhibition of technical innovation should similarly be weighed. The Commissions had to bear in mind that, if the law were especially strict in the United Kingdom, companies might cease to manufacture in this country.
Two of the difficulties are removed by the fact that we are dealing with a wider basis than national law reform. If the directive comes into force for EEC member States, the manufacturers of the Nine will all be in the same position as regards liability. There can hardly be much competitive advantage or disadvantage.
Having agreed with the principle, does the directive help us? In general terms it does, but there are a number of issues that require further elucidation in the discussions that no doubt will take place. Should liability extend to personal injuries only or to damage to property? I contend that it should not extend to damage to property for some of the same reasons that I have advanced why it should apply to personal injury. It is reasonable to expect manufacturers to insure themselves against personal injury, because people do not normally insure themselves against that sort of happening. However, it is reasonable for the owners of property to insure themselves against damage that might happen to it. That is the conclusion to which the Law Commissions came. The case has not been made out for extending liability to damage to property. No doubt a theoretical case can be made out for such an extension, but I wonder whether it will have much social and political justification.
Another reason why it might be wiser to confine liability to personal injury is that the convention of the Council of Europe so confines itself. There is a

1121
great deal to be said for the EEC directive and the Council of Europe convention coming together. Apart from anything else, the Council of Europe covers 21 countries, while the EEC at present covers only nine countries. There is a great deal to be said for that in terms of the desirability of the approximation of laws and in avoiding competitive advantage and disadvantage to our manufacturers.
Most of the difficult legal problems that we have found in recent years have involved personal injuries. It might be of some assistance to those who are worried about manufacturers that the burden of insurance would be greatly diminished if liability were limited to those who sustained personal injuries. The potential damage to property must be high, and that would be reflected in the contingent liability envisaged by insurance companies and in the premiums that would be charged.
The Government came to their view before this debate. It might have been better for them to listen to the views that will be expressed this afternoon and evening before announcing their decision. However, we shall seek to persuade them that they are wrong. The state of the art defence does a great deal to diminish the value of some acceptance of the principle of product liability.
Defences should be available to manufacturers. That is only fair. I hope that the right hon. Lady will confirm that the Government believe that it would be open to manufacturers to claim that the person voluntarily assumed his risk, or to claim the defence of contributory negligence in any actions that were brought. I think that it is the case, but I hope that the right hon. Lady will confirm it.
Several provisions in the directive require further clarification. In article 4, there is a definition of the word "defective". That definition is different from that devised by the Law Commissioners at an earlier stage of consideration. I do not wish to go into the technicalities involved—which largely turn on the words used—but the Government should consider the definition carefully.
Article 7 puts a global limit on the amount of compensation that can be claimed. It says that if a manufacturer's
1122
product causes damage and if that damage age is caused by identical articles having the same defect, there will be a global limit on the amount for which he is liable. That limit is defined as 25 million European units of account, which is approximately £15 million, a European unit of account being roughly equivalent to 60p.
That creates a problem. If a global limit is put on the liability of a manufacturer, how will he be able to settle any case? How will he know how many cases there will be? How will he know whether the amounts that he pays out will eventually exceed the global amount? Theoretically, one would know whether the global limit had been exceeded only if one had gone through all the cases that could possibly be brought, and if one had seen the amounts to be paid out. It is difficult to understand how a global limit could work. That is also the view of the two Law Commissions which considered this issue. The Government should remove the global limit. However, there is one argument in favour of it.
Mr. Michael Latham: I seek guidance on that point. In a later article, there is a 10-year time limit. If there is no global limit, how is the risk to be insured?
Mr. Smith: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated what I was about to say. There is a difficulty as regards insurance. An insurance company is unlikely to enter into a commitment for unlimited liability. It will want to put a ceiling on the amount that it has to pay out under the policy if a manufacturer has unlimited liability but is able is insure only up to a certain amount. He will have to make his own assessment of what that amount should be. Certain manufacturers may want to insure higher amounts than others. The manufacturer will have to carry the risk for anything that is in excess of his insurance cover.
However, the hon. Gentleman should not think that that is so terrible. It already happens with fault liability. All employers take out insurance against employers' liability. Potentially claims against them are unlimited. No insurance company will give them unlimited cover and so they insure for the maximum that they think they might

1123
have to pay and bear the cost themselves of any additional cover. It is not such a difficult theoretical or practical problem. The Government should remove the global limits completely.
A question was raised about the cut-off date. The draft directive proposes that there should be no claims 10 years after a product has gone into circulation. There was an interesting dispute between the English Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission on this issue. The English Law Commission agreed with the 10-year cut-off date, but the Scots thought it wrong in principle that somebody who suffered as a result of a defective article should be denied redress if the article were still in circulation after 10 years.
Although I have a slight national bias, I am not particularly concerned whether there is a 10-year cut-off date. There are practical difficulties about having unlimited liability as regards time, but I accept that an injustice might arise if someone were to suffer from a defect immediately after the cut-off period had come into effect. If it proved necessary to reach agreement on other matters in order to concede the cut-off period, I should have no objection. It would have some practical advantages in relation to insurance and people would be aware that the claim period ended at a particular time.
I have made our position clear. The Council of Europe seeks to establish a convention which might be adhered to by 21 European countries. At the same time, the EEC is proceeding with a draft directive that applies to nine of those countries. Both have put forward detailed proposals containing major differences. The Council of Europe excludes damage to property, while the EEC directive includes it. There are several other significant differences. However, both bodies agree that there should be a European approach to introducing such an important reform.
It is unfortunate that EEC and the Council of Europe have not been able to get together and find a common modus vivendi. If Britain were to adhere to the EEC directive, it would be impossible for us to adhere to the convention. If the directive were passed, we should have to adhere to it, and that would mean that it was impossible for
1124
us to sign the convention. One of the convention's rules is that no member State can derogate from any of the rights conferred under the convention. In some respects the EEC directive would have that effect and we should be prevented from signing the convention or from ratifying it. That would be most unfortunate.
Some effort should be made to reach the widest possible agreement in order that there may be the broadest area for the approximation of laws. The obligation on producers will then be much the same over a wider area and will go some way towards diminishing their fears. I hope that the Government will consider taking some initiative. The Select Committee in the other place asked whether this directive was intra vires of the treaty. It seems to be based on article 100 of the treaty and on the footing that the Commission believes that distortions of trade arise from the failure of the laws of the member States to approximate. I wonder whether distortions of trade arise. One does not know.
Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that, when this matter was debated in the Legal Affairs Committee of the European Parliament, the Commission could not produce a single case that involved distortion? I am not saying that I am not in favour of the principle, but to base it on article 100 is dangerous, because it may be challenged in front of the European Court as being ultra vires.
Mr. Smith: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for that helpful intervention. It has enlarged my knowledge and, I hope, that of other hon. Members. It is unfortunate that the Commission should strain at the provisions of the treaty in order to introduce a policy. It may be desirable for the member States of the European Community to reach an approximation of the laws if they so wish, just as it is desirable for member States of the Council of Europe to do so. If so, they should proceed on that basis and not try to force the provision through by means of one of the treaty's articles. That damages the treaty and creates apprehension about the way in which the Commission interprets its role.
If a widening of the functions of the European Community is involved, it

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should be made plain. Some procedural differences might be involved, but it would be a more honest way of dealing with the situation. Although the Government have taken an unfortunate decision about the state of the art defence, I hope that some agreement within the European Community will be reached, so that the reform is embodied within our national laws. Our producers will then have the advantage of similar laws being imposed on their competitors in the other countries. At the end of the day, the issue must be considered from the point of view not only of the EEC or the Council of Europe but from that of the injured person, who, through no fault of his own, is injured as a result of a defect in a manufactured product. Unless we say at this stage of the twentieth century that the loss must lie upon the injured person, which is a barbarous conclusion, we must seek to reform the law to give him adequate redress for a justified complaint.
4.29 pm
Mr. Cranley Onslow: I am sure that, among those who have made representations to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Consumer Affairs, she will recall the Society of British Aerospace Companies, which will welcome what she says on the state of the art defence. It is essential that for certain high-risk industries that defence should be available. That does not mean that we cannot proceed at all, but, if we recognise that at the outset, we stand a chance of proceeding sensibly.
My right hon. Friend may recall that the SBAC drew her attention to an interesting paper put up to the Commission in Brussels by the American Chamber of Commerce in Belgium. The United States in recent years has been the cradle of modern consumerism. We should therefore pause to take account of what has happened in legislation that the United States has practical experience of in the past 20 years. The paper is a moderate and reasonable document. It states:
"In the United States, the establishment of the principle of strict liability for damage caused by defective products has resulted in divergent and inconsistent decisions of the Courts in different State jurisdictions and the development of a body of law which does not fairly balance the interests of both the opposing parties in a product liability suit."
1126
The paper goes on to say that it fears
"that, unless certain major changes are incorporated in the proposed Directive, the same weaknesses in the substantive law will be implanted here in the Community, with the same unfortunate consequences."
Those of us who are aware of what has happened in America share that view. The paper continues:
"The Chamber is convinced that, in the area of substantive law, there are very important lessons to be learnt from the American experience, which is therefore highly relevant to the development of product liability law in the Community."
The paper makes one important point that my right hon. Friend will be able to turn her attention to with her European ministerial colleagues. A failure has been identified in the United States which may well be reproduced here. It is
"the failure … to identify clearly four distinct functions undertaken by the producer in relation to his product, and to deal separately with the standards of responsibility which the producer ought to fulfil in relation to each of those functions. The four functions concerned are the design of the product, its manufacture, the provision by the producer of warnings or instructions about its characteristics or use, and the giving by the producer of express warranties relating to it."
If we clear our minds on some of those areas, it may be easier to proceed, although I share my right hon. Friend's doubt that we shall be seeing a directive approved within a matter of weeks.
American experience in the aerospace industry has been almost horrendous. The most extreme case that I have heard of is of an aircraft that was manufactured for the United States Navy during the war by a manufacturer still in business. After passing through a great many hands, and thereby presumably giving testimony to its durability, it came into the hands of a private citizen who had the misfortune, when flying over water, to fail correctly to turn the tap from one petrol tank to another, because all the markings on the quadrant had been rubbed out by the successive hands of the many pilots who had flown the aircraft in the intervening 35 years. He was unfortunately unable to maintain air speed, fell into the sea, and was drowned. His widow sought to bring an action against the original manufacturer on the ground that the product was defective because the wear and tear should have been foreseen.

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I do not know what became of that case. One does not know what becomes of many cases launched in the United States. Here we have the second undesirable feature of the practice of consumer legislation in America. The defence of individual cases often rests not on the merits at law but on the pockets of the insurance companies. They decide whether they will launch a defence or settle out of court. I do not believe that we should necessarily fall into that trap.
The SBAC is not alone in its views. My right hon. Friend may have seen a letter to the Commission from the French Directorate General of Civil Aviation on that very subject. It states:
"There is one aspect of the … draft directive, concerning the manufacturer's objective liability, which I feel is particularly worrying for the aeronautical industry: the manufacturer is held liable for his product 'even where the item in question could not have been deemed defective on the basis of the scientific and technological development prevailing when the item was marketed' (article one of the draft directive). The European Parliament had proposed excluding the 'development risks', but this proposal was rejected by the Commission to safeguard the consumer from risks unknown. The Commission was backed in this stand by the European Insurers' Committee, who held that this risk should not result in insurance costs being appreciably higher than those resulting from the introduction of objective liability, irrespective of the defect. This statement should be viewed with caution insofar as aeronautical products are concerned."
That statement puts me in mind of the notorious comment, "They would say that, wouldn't they?" I have the suspicion that insurance companies are by no means necessarily the best guides to what will happen should some of the proposals behind the draft directive ever be embodied in the equivalent of the European statute book.
The letter continues:
"the principle of development risk liability would doubtless have a stultifying effect on an industry such as the aerospace industry, where research and development are so vital."
It is relevant to consider the ability of manufacturers of such products to cover themselves by insurance. The insurance market does not operate, as the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) reminded us, on an open-ended basis. It would be unlikely that any insurance company would be willing to provide a manufacturer with cover for as long
1128
as 10 years against the kind of risks that would be open if the state of the art defence did not exist.
A fundamental incompatibility exists which I hope hon. Members will understand. Probably many of us flew in Comets before all the accidents took place. Most of us recall the tragedies and remember that they were established as being due to a type of defect that nobody had any reason to anticipate—metal fatigue caused by constant pressurisation and depressurisation, which is familiar now but was unknown then. If that is not a state of the art situation, I find it difficult to identify what is.
We are dealing with industries that must innovate if they wish to retain their markets, and risks have to be taken in order to make progress. It is impossible to reconcile that human desire with the other human desire that all persons should, if possible, be protected against everything if accident befalls them through no fault of their own. In proceeding, my right hon. Friend should consciously identify the areas where the risks are so much higher and the need for progress is recognised as being greater and separate them from other areas of industry where risks are lower and innovation is perhaps less of a compulsion.
If I am to find fault with the motion before us at all, it is in the last few words. It would have been reasonable to say
"undue burdens should not be imposed on high-risk industry",
rather than on all industry, although then one has to deal with the problem of defining what is and what is not an undue burden. It is a desirable objective, for which we should all strive as best we can, but I want to enter this strong caution on behalf of one high-risk, high-technology industry. I trust and hope that my right hon. Friend will not, in any proposals that she may subsequently feel inclined to endorse, do anything that will inhibit the progress of that vital industry.
4.39 pm
Mr. Gordon Oakes: My constituency includes the sort of high-risk industries to which the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) referred, namely, the chemical, agrichemical and pharmaceutical industries. They are most perturbed about many of the provisions of the draft directive.

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I may be the only Oppositon Member to do so, but I congratulate the Minister on including the state of the art defence. She said that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer), who was Solicitor-General in the Government of which I was a member, had agreed with the provision. I believe that it is important for the future of British industry that the defence should be provided.
Our law is different from that of many other European States. It has always been tempered by provisions of equity as well as of law. It is easy to point to the Thalidomide tragedy, or to the difficulties of a consumer who finds himself or herself at loss, but it has never been a principle of our law that a person who conducts exhaustive tests on an article that is safe when it is put on the market should subsequently find himself responsible for paying compensation and damages when he could not have known that there was a defect in the product. That would be alien to our concept of equity and law. On that principle alone, it is right to preserve the state of the art defence.
The hon. Member for Woking made a valid point when he said that the proposal could be a dead hand on any innovative product coming on to the market. That will be so if a manufacturer fears that he may have to pay premiums on, or be sued for, a defect that he could not have known about. It could certainly be a damning factor against the bringing of new products on to the market by the chemical industry.
Other matters in the draft directive cause considerable concern. One is the definition of a defective product. There are many loose definitions in the draft directive about which industry is concerned. It does not know what the draft directive means. A defective article is defined as one that
"does not provide for persons or property the safety of which a person is entitled to expect."
I know that the reductio ad absurdum of the argument is the probably apocryphal case of the American matron who bought a microwave oven and tried to dry her poodle in it. The poodle died. That probably did not happen, but the case is often quoted in relation to strict liability.
I direct the Minister's attention to a situation that it is thought could arise
1130
under the legislation. I hope that she will be able to satisfy us that the situation could not arise. In my constituency, ICI makes Paraquat, which is probably the most effective weedkiller in the world. It has probably saved farmers hundreds of millions of pounds, and it has been of inestimable aid to gardeners as an effective weedkiller. Unfortunately, if Paraquat is taken by humans, it is lethal. There is no known antidote.
The producers go to infinite pains to make clear to any consumer or purchaser that Paraquat is a lethal chemical, but, even after the company has done all that and has spent considerable sums in trying to find an antidote, Paraquat is sometimes drunk, usually by children who have no connection with the purchaser of the chemical. They may have broken into a garden shed, seen the chemical in an attractive bottle used by the purchaser—not the bottle supplied by the manufacturer—and drunk the liquid.
What will be the position of ICI on strict liability if, even though the chemical is not made for internal consumption and every effort is made to point out that it is poisonous, it is consumed? Could the manufacturer be liable, even though the product is effective in its intended use as a weedkiller? There is doubt in the minds of many manufacturers on that point.
There are other problems, arising from the draft directive. I declare an interest as a consultant to the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, which is worried about some of the provisions. It is concerned about strict product liability, under which, when a person is damaged by a defect in a product the producer should be automatically liable to provide compensation.
Who is the producer of what is dispensed by a pharmacist? Is it the manufacturer of a medicine, which normally comes in a package, or is it the pharmacist who makes up a prescription? That is a matter of concern to pharmacists, because the package from the manufacturer is often of a different quantity from what is required on a prescription. What records will have to be kept in case an action is brought subsequently because the manufacturer of a product seeks to shift responsibility on to the pharmacist?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Article 2 provides that, in the instance quoted by the right hon. Gentleman, both the person supplying the materials and the person who makes them up are producers.
Mr. Oakes: That leaves the pharmacist in a difficult position. The injured party may decide to proceed not against the manufacturer but against the pharmacist. Considerable record-keeping will be necessary for pharmacists so that they can prove their point if an action is taken by a customer.
A further point to consider is the question of primary products. As usual in EEC legislation, primary agricultural products are excluded. Only manufactured products are included in the draft directive. I do not know why that is so, though the EEC has a predilection always to protect agriculture, no matter what the Community may do to manufacturing industry.
One has to ask what is a primary agricultural product. For example, when milk comes from the udder of a cow, it is a primary agricultural product. When the milk is part of the constitution of a cake, it is a manufactured product. If the milk became dried milk through a manufacturing process, it would cease to be a primary agricultural product and would become a manufactured product. At what stage does a product cease to be a primary agricultural product and become a manufactured product? Milk in this country is a manufactured product, because it is pasteurised and put into a bottle. Does that mean that it ceases to have its status as a primary agricultural product? These are not niggling legal points. They are matters of great and deep concern to the whole food processing industry, caused by the loose wording of the draft directive and what it means.
All hon. Members admire what my right hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) did for the Thalidomide victims. It is right that consumers should be protected. Sometimes, however, it is possible to take consumerism too far. I think especially of those who work in industry and become injured either by a product or the making of the product. No absolute strict liability exists. My own union, the Transport and General Workers Union, has been trying to persuade successive Governments for 15 or 20 years that a phenomenon known
1132
as Raynauds phenomenon, where the hand goes white, is palsied, and shakes as a result of using a particular type of machinery, should be classified as an industrial injury. The consumer has an advantage over the person considered by many hon. Members, including myself, to be more entitled to absolute strict liability.
The draft directive bristles with difficulties. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide some answers. I, for one, on the Opposition side of the House, am grateful that the state of the art defence will continue to be provided.
4.52 pm
Mr. Peter Lloyd: I beg to move the amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow), myself and others, at the end of the question, to add:
'and further believes that if such conditions are not met, further legislation on this topic should be left to the Parliament of the United Kingdom '.
This directive changes fundamentally the law of product liability as it is known in this country. That law can, and should, be improved. There are, however, large differences of opinion between hon. Members on both sides of the House, and certainly on this side of the House, and some of our partners in Europe about how it should be done. My right hon. Friend will no doubt ensure that all the worries, concern, fears, doubts and criticisms expressed during the debate will be put clearly and forcefully in Brussels. In the nature of these matters, it is likely that it will be a compromise that emerges. No such compromise having such a fundamental effect on manufacturers and consumers in this country should be imported into United Kingdom law without further thorough consideration by this House, especially when, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) pointed out in a cogent intervention, the treaty foundation on which this directive is based is legally very flimsy.
I do not wish to develop all the doubts and criticisms that have been and will be expressed on the Government side of the House, but I hope that my right hon. Friend will take on board and sympathise with the point contained in the amendment and will be able to give some assurance that these matters will be brought

1133
back to the House before they become a part of United Kingdom law.
4.54 pm
Mr. John Tilley: I support fully the spirit of the directive as a major step forward in consumer protection. I take that attitude as a Member of this House sponsored by the first consumers' organisation in this country, the Co-operative movement, which was set up 150 years ago to protect working men and women from defective products, mainly adulterated food. Today, the Co-operative movement welcomes the directive for the protection that it affords to the present generation of consumers.
I hope that the Government will pay particular attention to the reservation that has come from one section of the Cooperative movement, the Co-operative Press. The effect on the printing industry has already been mentioned by Conservative Members and also by the Minister. The view of the Co-operative movement is that it is beyond the powers of the Co-operative Press to check the accuracy of the material printed, including liability for textual error of a technical kind. Sometimes, material is printed in a foreign language. In the case of Russian, for example, the society has no facility for checking the text.
A printer in my constituency has echoed the complaint. He points out the special problems that the directive presents for the printing trade, and writes to say that he is horrified by its implications. I have a special interest in that printer's welfare, not only as one of the few small firms in my constituency which have managed to survive the Government's economic policy but also as the printer of my last election address who will still be in business, I trust, to print my next address.
The nature of defects in printed material is more complex than those in other manufactured goods. A physical defect can occur in a book that falls to pieces when it is opened, just as a car may not start or a piece of furniture can collapse. No one suggests that printers or book-binders should not be equally as liable as any other producer of artefacts in that situation. But printed material can also contain a defect in the actual text. This point was explained
1134
well in a circular issed by the British Printing Industries Federation, which says that, as "producers", printers and bookbinders
"would be strictly liable for defects in books and other printed matter. This could have serious implications, assuming that an error in the text would be regarded as making an item defective."
I have established, as I think the federation has established, in correspondence with the Minister, that no assurances on that ground can be given at the moment. The textual error might be the addition of a nought in a medical textbook that resulted in a drug being taken, or prescribed, at 10 times the safe level. A case is quoted last year of a publisher recalling copies of an A-level textbook on organic chemistry due to a serious misprint in the description of an experiment. In such cases, the printer would not have the specialist knowledge that could be expected of an author or publisher. It would be most unreasonable to expect a printer to spot a textual error of a technical nature. Where a printer receives camera-ready copy from a customer, he would not have to read the text in the course of the work and would not be reimbursed by the customer for doing so. Where the copy had been pre-set in a foreign language, he would not be able to read the text, anyway.
That view echoes what is felt by the Co-operative Press. The printer in my constituency says that he often has printed material pre-set in Arabic. It is as ludicrous to suggest that the Co-operative Press should have Russian readers at hand as it is to suggest that a small printer in my constituency, or any other constituency, should have Arab proofreaders to avoid liability under the legislation.
The position of book-binders will be equally unsatisfactory. They receive printed sheets for binding and have no control over the textual matter. The directive seems to ignore the careful division in British practice and in law—the division between labour, responsibility, and liability in the printing industry in Britain. It would seem that the only way for a printer to avoid falling foul of the directive is for him to insist that the publisher and the author checks every item in proof form before it is printed and sent out. Even if that was practicable,

1135
it would be prohibitively expensive and would put large and small printers out of work.
I do not dare to guess how the directive will interlock with British laws of defamation. As a former journalist, I believe that newspaper printers, particularly when they are not the owners or publishers, could be at an even greater risk from the directive than the printers of books, who have more time to check texts. I am surprised that Fleet Street is not already up in arms about the directive. If journalists read the directive fully, it might do a lot to dampen their enthusiasm for the Common Market and some might regret campaigning for a "Yes" vote a few years ago.
I ask the Government to press for the complete exclusion from the directive of printers and binders of the printed word. Already the Commission has agreed to the exclusion of craft and artistic material on the ground that that normally involves production item by item and not of serial production. There is a comparability with the wide variety of tasks undertaken by small jobbing printers, who fear the effects of the directive.
I was grateful to the Minister for mentioning the issue. She used fairly strong language and said that the position was absurd. I have had experience, as a journalist and as a Member of the House, of the European Commission and the Council of Europe. I noted that she did not say that it was intolerable, nor did she say that it would not be agreed by the Government. The danger is that the Government will be willing to compromise on the issue. I hope that that is not so. I hope that the Minister will give a categorical assurance that the British tradition—that responsibility lies with the publisher and/or author and not with the printer or binder—will be followed. If that does not happen, we shall lose a valuable principle which has long protected printers, bookbinders and publishers. The Government have said that they will bear the problem in mind. They have said that the proposal is absurd. I should like them to say that it will not be adopted.
5.2 pm
Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: I begin by mentioning my worries about the constitutional position and the amend-
1136
ment. We are discussing a directive, and not a regulation. If the directive is passed by the Council of Ministers, the House will have to translate it into law in a form that British courts can interpret. Once the directive is passed, we are obliged to observe its substance and principles. We cannot divert or modify the substantial matters in it. We are obliged, either by means of primary legislation in the form of an Act or in an order, to translate the verbiage of the directive into statutory material suitable for interpretation in United Kingdom courts.
The amendment appears to go further than that. It implies that if the conditions, which I support, are not met by the directive and the directive is nevertheless passed, we should refuse to observe it and pass our own initiatory primary legislation. We cannot do that without being in breach of the Treaty.
However, my hon. Friends who support the amendment need not worry too much about that because, under article 100 of the Treaty, a directive must be passed unanimously. There might be doubt about that, and different views have been expressed to me. However, from reading article 100, I am convinced that what I say is correct. I have with me the bible, the great purple book. The article states:
"The council shall, acting unanimously on a proposal from the Commission, issue directives for the approximation of such provisions laid down by law, regulation or administrative action in Member States as directly affect the establishment or functioning of the common market."
My hon. Friends fear that the directive might be passed without the reservations to which the Government attach such importance, but that is unlikely. If there is no unanimity, there is no directive. If there is unanimity, it means that the Government have not dug in their toes as they say that they will.
Mr. Tony Marlow: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that, in the nature of the Common Market, it is possible that a series of measures will be discussed together and that, although the terms and conditions that the Government might wish for this measure are not met, they may agree unanimously with the measure in order to get agreement on another measure?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: The Government may do that. If they do, the House can do nothing further without turning out the Government. If the Government agree to a directive, it is not open to the House to veto or negative that directive. Once a directive is passed, all that the House can do is to translate into law suitable for interpretation by our courts the substance of the directive. In that I include all exceptions such as the state of the arts, defence, the crafts defence, and the question whether it applies to property as well as to personal injuries. If a Government have agreed to such a directive, they cannot even provide time for a Bill or resolution to negative that substance. That is as I understand the constitutional position.
When my hon. Friends say that further legislation on the topic should be left to the United Kingdom Parliament, I imagine that they refer to the position that will exist if we cannot achieve the conditions that the Minister says we should insist upon, that we shall not agree, and that the directive will not be passed. My hon. Friends say that in such circumstances the United Kingdom Parliament should translate into action its own domestic legislation, based, no doubt, on the Pearson report and the reports from the English and Scottish Law Commissions.
I turn to the substance of the matter. I have had my doubts about the vires of the directive. I am delighted to have the support of my old colleague in these matters, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), who was in the Chair during the battles so long ago. At one period, we convinced the legal committee to throw out the whole directive on the ground that it was not truly based on article 100, since there was no evidence that the, market was being distorted by the differences in the laws of the Nine countries relating to liability for defective products.
That, of course, evidence, the basis of article 100, but if there is evidence, for example, that someone is setting up a factory in one State rather than another because the law there enables him to avoid liabilities to which he would otherwise be subject, one could say that competition was being distorted. No such example could be produced. The argument was entirely
1138
theoretical. Therefore, at that stage it seemed dangerous to proceed on article 100 alone.
The Treaty does not provide for consumer protection. Perhaps it should, but in strict law it does not. That was not within the remit or concept of the founding fathers, and it was not an issue in the negotiations, the renegotiations or the re-renegotiations in respect of the entry of the other three countries. To proceed in that way is straining the Treaty. It is possible that, when the directive comes into force, someone who feels injured by its provisions may take the matter to the European Court, which may rule that the directive is outwith the powers of and not truly based upon article 100. I doubt whether that will happen.
Mr. Peter Lloyd: If it did happen, would it mean that, the matter having passed through the United Kingdom Parliament in the way that my hon. and learned Friend suggested, it would become proper law in the United Kingdom? Then, whatever the basis of the directive, would it still be law here and, therefore, would any appeal in this country fall to the ground?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: No, it would not be law here. If it were struck down by the court at Luxembourg, it would be struck down throughout the Nine and would have no effect. I think that that situation is highly unlikely to arise. I would not suggest that we contemplate it or proceed on that basis. I should be sorry if that happened, because I accept what the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) said. It is desirable, if we are to move into the realms of strict liability, that it should be done on a wider than national basis. That is right because, in so far as it becomes a burden on our industry, it is not fair that it should not be an equal burden upon the industries of our competitors.
Mr. John Fraser: Is it not advisable to draw a distinction? If, as with parts of the Employment Protection Act, one translates a directive into domestic law by an Act of Parliament, it does not matter whether the directive is ultra vires. If, however, one uses section 2 of the European Communities Act to translate the directive into domestic law, it may be challengeable on the ground that the original directive was ultra vires. Does

1139
the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that distinction?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I accept that distinction. I perhaps gave my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lloyd) a somewhat summary answer. The issue depends on the manner in which the directive is translated into our domestic law. If it is translated by primary legislation here, that legislation then has a life of its own, which would survive a striking down by the European Court. It would not survive if the directive were implemented by the more summary method.
I accept the principle adumbrated by the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North that strict liability should be implemented on as wide a basis as possible. I agree with him that it is a thousand pities that the convention of the Council of Europe, which was anterior to the EEC's taking the matter up, was not adopted, because that would have given a wider spread and a more realistic incidence of liability, particularly as regards damage to property.
In these matters, which are largely going through uncharted seas, one ought to proceed with a certain amount of caution. I do not think that we appreciate the legal difficulties that will arise, some of which were touched upon by the right hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes). In those circumstances it would be far better to confine this new form of strict liability to injury or to death of persons. After all, that was the motivation behind this movement. The injury to the Thalidomide children put the steam behind it. That is why we are all so concerned about it. That was the primary trigger for the whole great debate on the subject. It would be wrong for us, until we have seen how matters progress, to extend strict liability to damage to property. Even if that were excluded from the directive, those people whose property was damaged by defective goods would not be denied all remedy. They would still have action in tort, and, with the modern development of tort, with the development of the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur, the standard of proof that must be produced by the plaintiff whose property is damaged is relatively low in the first instance. It is thrown back in most
1140
cases upon the manufacturer or the person who is responsible for putting the defective article on the market, and the onus is upon him, in practice, whatever the law says, to disprove negligence, and to show that he took every possible precaution to prevent the defect arising.
Therefore, to exclude damage to property from this directive will not prevent the owners of property having their remedy in 99 cases out of 100, and I think it would be far better to proceed one step at a time in that matter.
I should like to see other matters included. I am sorry that there is not an exception in the case of the doctrine of recall. If a manufacturer has discovered something wrong with his product and he takes every step possible to recall it and is prepared to pay compensation for the work, at least after the date of his action of recall he ought to be allowed a defence. I think that that is where I quarrel with the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North. I have been thinking about the matter since he spoke. He has laid down a principle that is good, but it must not be driven so far that it damages our industry and the consumer. If it is driven very far, the consumer will be damaged in his pocket. All prices will rise, I do not think that the consumer associations will be pleased by that. That will be the result, because manufacturers are obliged to insure, and, if the risks against which they are insuring are too great, the premiums will be enormous. If that happens, the prices of all goods will explode.
Although I am in favour of embarking upon this venture, therefore, I do not want to see the principles driven to hard. In one respect the directive observes that, and that is in the case of craftsmen or, as it is sometimes put,
"goods that are not produced industrially",
whatever that means—it is not defined—there shall be no strict liability for injury to the person or property of the consumer. What is the logical justification for that? A child who is injured—perhaps seriously—by a toy that is defective and is produced by a craftsman is just as entitled to sympathy and compensation as a child injured by a toy that has been produced industrially, but not so according to the directive as it stands.

1141
The Commission is beginning to realise that there must be exceptions to the great statement of moral principle adumbrated by the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North. That is probably right. Let us make no bones about the fact that the reason for that is the politics of the matter. The exception was insisted on by, I think, the German Christian Democrats, because a great many craftsmen support them with their votes. There was a more obvious balance of political power than when some of us sprang to the defence of the hated multinationals, or some other non-OK personages.
The idea that there is a tremendous moral principle behind the exceptions is not always true. It was certainly not in evidence in the exception for goods that are not industrially produced. I do not know what that phrase means. It appears to be capable of wide exploitation, as does a great deal of this very short directive. For example, the definition of a defect strikes me as being most extraordinary. It states:
"A product is defective when it does not provide for persons or property the safety which a person is entitled to expect."
That is an argument in a circle. Presumably people are entitled to expect protection and safety up to a reasonable amount. The definition puts it in a subjective form. It does not say whether it should be a reasonable person, a sophisticated person, or what sort of person. The arguments about what is a defective product, with such a definition, could be endless—and so on throughout the articles that are remarkably short and would be quite incapable of immediate translation into the law of England under our present system of drafting laws.
I now well understand the motives of my hon. Friends' amendment, but I do not think that in practice they have very much to fear. I have no doubt that the House will keep a sharp eye on the Government during the negotiations. Not only tonight but at subsequent times we shall make it clear that, before they agree to the directive, we require——
Mr. Marlow: In what way will the House be able to influence the Government in coming to a decision with the European Parliament?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I do not think that my hon. Friend had the advantage of listening to my right hon. Friend the Minister's close and charming introduction to the matter. She made it clear that it is a matter not of weeks but of years. If those who are interested in the matter follow the negotiations, table questions and apply themselves to all the opportunities open to hon. Members in a long and continuous programme, I am sure that they will be able to make their views felt, and that the Government, who are so sensitive to opinion, will hoist them in.
The state of the art is the crux of the matter. I agree with the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North about that. However, in my step-by-step approach I take a different view from his. It is wrong to make people pay when no amount of knowledge, other steps or actions could have led them at the time to realise that there was a defect. That would inhibit the inventiveness and the development of the human race too much. People will think twice about putting forward new products, new drugs, new methods. and all the things that we hope will spring from our industry and commerce which, unfortunately, is shackled in many cases to old industries.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Surely it is not an argument about where moral blame lies. There is no moral blame on the poor consumer who suffers. The real issue is who is best able to insure himself against risk. It cannot be right to say that, because the manufacturer should do that, the premium must be passed on to the consumer, and that the poor innocent consumer who suffers should receive no compensation but must live with the consequences of an inadvertent act—which everyone agrees is not the fault of anybody, but was designed by the manufacturer.
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I doubt whether insurance would be available. One can obtain insurance about observing the state of the art as it is at any given time, but to obtain insurance against defects that have not yet been dreamt of is an impossible position——
Mr. Lyon rose——
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I shall not give way again. The hon. Gentleman may

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disagree with me, but, even if one could obtain insurance, the premiums against future, hypothetical, unknown risks would be so great that they would seriously inhibit the development of our industry. It is a matter of personal judgment, and that is my opinion. That is why I think that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North are driving the principle too far when not supporting my right hon. Friend the Minister in seeking to have a state of the art defence included in what otherwise is a step in the right direction.
5.27 pm
Mr. Greville Janner: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) spoke about going into uncharted seas. I did not feel that he was an intrepid mariner anxious to step into new protective territory. That is somewhat surprising, because by no means has consumer protection legislation been the prerogative of any one side of the House. I had hoped that right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches would advance a more positive and understanding point of view.
The seas are not really uncharted. Strict liability for products exists not only in the United States but in France and the Federal Republic of Germany. The charts are available. People do not go uninsured in those countries. There is strict liability. A person can insure, provided he is prepared to, pay. The more dangerous the product is for those who use it or may be submitted to it, the higher the premium. Surely that is correct.
Mrs. Jill Knight: In contemplating what happens in other countries, will the hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind the enormous sums of money that doctors and chemists in America have to pay out in insurance, and that that has its consequences on the patient and the buyer?
Mr. Janner: That is correct, but it is not due in the main to product liability. The American system is entirely different from ours. It involves a different legal administration. It is a State without legal aid. The nation has 52 or 53 jurisdictions, each of which is different. The .amount of damages awarded not only
1144
in this sort of case but in almost every other case is regarded as wildly extravagant by our courts. The entire administration is different from ours. What matters is that the United States rules on product liability have now been in action in a large number of its states, and federally, for many years. We have much to learn from them, but we have equally much to learn from France.
Mr. Ivan Lawrence: I am not sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman is strictly correct in his facts with regard to the United States. Having had the experience of a 26-fold increase in insurance premiums following the introduction of product liability, I believe that the law has been changed to reintroduce the concept of fault.
Mr. Janner: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. I spent a year studying at Harvard, and I was in America last year looking into product liability. The Federal Government produced a draft which States were invited to incorporate but which they have not done because they recognise that the overriding consideration is the protection of the ordinary citizen. In their country, it is possible for any citizen to take his case to court if he has a good case. This is because of a system we dislike, which is that the lawyer takes a share in the winnings if the case is successful. That is regarded in this country as a corrupting and unhappy practice.
On the other hand, I sometimes wonder whether it is not better for a person to be able to go to court and to pay his lawyer a percentage of the proceeds than not to be able to go to court at all. The real problem in this country is that there is no justice for most people. If one suffers an injury that has been created and caused by a drug, a machine or equipment which was built, manufactured and marketed by a great concern, one's only hope of going to court and obtaining justice is if one is either very poor and can get legal aid or very rich and does not need it. If a person is from a middle income group, there is no hope in this country of obtaining justice, not even the hope of contingency arrangements, which exist in the United States. The problems created by this for ordinary folk who suffer troubles, who are injured by defects in products, are very real and in most cases insoluble here.

1145
There was an answer in respect of the Thalidomide cases because some of the children came from poor families and could get legal aid. There were test cases. The cases moved forward towards trial, but at that stage it became quite clear that there was a reasonable chance that the cases would fail. There was a reasonable chance that the manufacturers would succeed in showing that in the state of the art, they having taken all the precautions that reasonable people would have taken, and even though damage and the defect in the product was clear, no negligence could be proved against them. Had that been so, all these children would have lost their cases and got nothing. Therefore, the state of the art defence having been raised, and negligence having to be proved, so far as I know all the cases were settled and the children got very much less than they would have received had they been able to go to court and win their cases.
What we are talking about here is not the imposition of unreasonable burdens on people who should not have to bear them, but the imposition on people who, in the course of their business, put on to the market goods which damage, destroy, maim or kill and who must then bear the responsibility for innocent people who would otherwise have no remedy. Again, this is not uncharted territory. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) indicated that in industry employees do not have these rights. In one case they do, because the Employer's Liability (Defective Equipment) Act imposes strict liability on employers who do not cause injury to property but death or personal injury resulting from equipment or plant which they supply for use at work.
If an employee is injured at work by defective equipment, he or his widow can get their damages without proof of fault. That is not the end of the trail, either, because if the employer of the person who suffered death or personal injury can show that he acquired the plant and equipment from someone else and that it was not his fault, he can seek contribution or indemnity from the people really at fault. He can bring the manufacturers, the erectors, the installers and, indeed, the designers into the
1146
action and seek a remedy. At that stage, insurers will decide whether or not to fight the case.
The hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) said that the position in the United States is different from what it is here because insurers decide whether to fight a case. It is not different at all. In nearly all cases here the insurers decide whether to fight the case, not the unfortunate insured. He would like the insurers to pay up quick, get him out of it, avoid the publicity and not incur the nastiness and the agony of having to go into the witness box and be cross-examined. But it is the insurers who step into the shoes of the insured and decide whether the case is to be taken to court.
It is not correct to say that insurance is unavailable or that one cannot insure indefinitely or even 10 or 15 years ahead. One can, but the insurance market in this country is in a state of fascinating turmoil because this is a new area for it. It does not know what to charge, and anyone who wants to insure against product liability, even today and without strict liability except in the area of defective equipment, must shop around and get the best arrangements he can. A wide area of insurance is available, but, alas, in the Unfair Contract Terms Act insurers were excluded from the rules so that their exclusion clauses bite. My advice to anyone looking for this sort of insurance is to be careful that he gets what he pays for, because he may pay for it, think that he has got it and find that his rights have been excluded. There is insurance which is available at a price, and it depends upon contract.
There are rights for people who suffer if there are rights in contract—if they bought. There are rights in negligence if negligence can be proved. There are no rights if negligence cannot be proved. One may not be able to prove it because one cannot afford to take one's case to court. It may be that one cannot qualify for legal aid because one earns a modest income, and that is all that is necessary to put someone outside the rules. One certainly cannot afford to lose a case. It is an expensive process.
When these anxieties came before the Royal Commission on Civil Liability, the

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Law Commissions for England and Wales and the Scottish Law Commission, they considered whether the state of the art defence should be inserted. They said "No", because that would destroy the basis of what they were trying to do, which was to give protection to ordinary people. These Commissions were not staffed by militants on the far Left of some extremist group. In the main, they were fairly central legal gentlemen who believed that this was a new protection which people required.
At this stage, I pay tribute to the late Lord Pearson, who was not only a great lawyer but a great gentleman and a very kind and lovable man. He fought bitterly against the introduction of this kind of legislation with the state of the art defence in it. He believed that it would kill off the basis of any legislation. Shortly before he died, I heard him say so to a public gathering. He was a lovely man, and I should like to take this opportunity—I am sure that the House would—in the first debate of this sort after his passing to pay tribute to him.
All these Commissions have said that we need changes in the law in order to protect people. We all have constituents who manufacture dangerous goods such as aircraft and machinery. Innovation continues in the United States. It has not died in France. Germany does not seem to be totally bereft of it because it has strict liability legislation. Indeed, I went to inspect a system in France, which is administered by a department which rejoices in the name of "Département de Consommation" and which apparently consummates the rules for the protection of consumers. They work perfectly well. They manage within these areas of restraint and constraint, and manufacturers know that, if they put goods on the market which cause death or personal injury, they or their insurers will have to pay the sufferer. I suggest that that is a form of conception in law which requires consummation in a directive and which should be introduced into our laws as soon as possible.
The amendment suggests
"that if such conditions are not met, further legislation … should be left to the Parliament of the United Kingdom."
I veer in favour of that, not because of the risks that have been outlined by the
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hon. and learned Member for Darwen but because the previous Labour Government declined to bring in legislation until they knew what Europe would do. That constant putting-off of protection for our people because we cannot get the Europeans to agree on what they want is a restraint on our efforts, which is wrong. I should like legislation for strict liability, with the state of the art defence excluded. We should not have to wait until the internal quarrels within the Community have been resolved for a decision on whether it is intra vires or ultra vires for us to bring in legislation. We should bring in our own legislation to protect our own people.
The hon. and learned Member for Darwen said that if we did so, prices would go up. That is the argument that we have heard used against all legislation that is designed to protect consumers. I am sure it was used in 1893 against the Sale of Goods Act. It was used against the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973. It was certainly used against the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, against removing the anomaly that printers and publishers were responsible for the contents of their documents, and against removing the anomalies that exist as a result of the sort of damages that are awarded in the United States. We should plant our feet firmly on the sensible soil that strict liability has found in France and Germany, and we should give people in this country who suffer through no fault of their own and who have no access to the courts and to justice, the rights that they enjoy in other countries, whether through the force imposed by European directives or the good sense that we should impose through our own legislation.
5.42 pm
Mr. Peter Griffiths: I welcome any extension of protection for the consumer, and I recognise that there is a need to maintain the balance between the resources of individual consumers and those of manufacturers. I also welcome the intention of these directives to bring about an element of standardisation, a common system throughout a wide area of manufacturing in Europe.
Nevertheless, we cannot move from the general to the particular. My welcome

1149
for legislation for the protection of consumers in general does not necessarily imply an acceptance of the principle that underlies these directives—the principle of strict liability. It may be that what is a valuable addition to protection for the consumer of simple household articles is irrelevant, or probably damaging, to firms which operate on the fringes of the most advanced technology and whose customers are not normally individual members of the public. We should therefore look closely at any proposals that will widen the concept of liability irrespective of fault if they are likely to damage the prospects of particular firms whose position is to the advantage of this country in our present economic circumstances.
I should like to give an example from my constituency. Although there are a large number of firms which have misgivings about these directives, there is one that particularly epitomises the sort of difficulty that is glossed over when we talk about the need to protect individual consumers. In my constituency, there is a relatively small firm which is the acknowledged world leader in research, design, development and production of flexible self-sealing tanks for petrol and other liquids. That firm supplies flexible petrol tanks and tanks for other liquids throughout the world. It has an acknowledged lead. which is entirely dependent on its ability to utilise the most modern technology to seize opportunities that its own research gives it and which would be lost if there were any elements of delay. I shall return to the point about the size of the firm later.
These products are normally sold to customers who purchase them as components of further production. They are not dear old ladies buying in supermarkets but highly sophisticated, well-advised technically able firms which intend in turn to incorporate the tanks into products which may themselves then become part of a further complex structure, creating a chain of responsibility in which the control of the ultimate use of flexible tanks is extremely limited in the case of the company that made the original item. This is a case where the introduction of the principle of strict liability would undoubtedly have damaging effects.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I listened carefully to my hon. Friend. But
1150
does he not agree that, if the directive were adopted, the producer, namely the gentleman in his constituency, would be liable only if the flexible tank was defective?
Mr. Griffiths: With respect to my hon. Friend, it would depend entirely on the definition of "defective". To be defective, it does not necessarily have to be shown that the manufacturer could have known that his product would prove to be defective in the conditions in which it was used. If he knew of a defect, he would clearly be at risk in law.
I wish to make clear the effect of such legislation on a relatively small producer. Much has been said about the cost of insurance. The situation of a small producer is different from that of a section or division of a large producer or conglomerate. When a large firm is seeking insurance it may, because of the effectiveness of the business that is offered to the insurance company, be able to get favourable quotations to cover those activities which may be thought to be dangerous under these directives. But the company about which I am talking produces nothing but flexible self-sealing petrol tanks, which are obviously produced from the latest materials and the latest products from the chemical industry. It would need to obtain insurance for this product alone. It may be said that the risks of the product could be insured against at a price, but to a relatively small firm that could be crippling and might mean that that firm would not proceed on the basis of modern technology but would subordinate its production decisions to the commercial decisions of an insurance company which had no expertise in that area.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I think that my hon. Friend is misunderstanding the position at common law at the moment. I am sure he will appreciate that his constituent will be liable to the person to whom he sells his product if that product is not reasonably fit for the purpose for which it was sold. That is the result of the Sale of Goods Act 1893, as amended. His constituent will almost certainly already have insured against that risk. The directive carries that liability only a slight degree further forward.
Mr. Griffiths: It would depend very much on how one defined the words "a

1151
slight degree further forward". Here we have a position in which items which are produced basically for military use are frequently used for civil purposes. For example, they are used as flotation tanks for helicopters, both military and civil.
The scale of a potential claim arising, from use in the civil sector of the aircraft industry, of a product originally designed for the military sector has to be considered, because there could be an unacceptable increase in the scale of the risk. It is not simply a minor step forward. It is calculated to multiply the cost of insurance several fold.
At the moment, it is not possible to obtain estimates of what the premiums will be under the legislation if it is applied to this country. Firms are, therefore, justified in their alarm that the premiums may be so high that small businesses operating on the fringes of technology will have to give way to the giants. In the case that I am quoting, those giants are not in this country. It would, therefore, result in a loss not just to my constituency but to the country as a whole.
The consumer must come to recognise that he benefits from the use of advanced technology and from having it at the earliest possible moment. It is the consumer who wants products to be made available to him, and he has to accept that, in demanding this, there is an element of risk which can reasonably be placed on his shoulders. The way in which the balance is to be achieved arises from the most welcome comments made by my right hon. Friend the Minister in her introduction. First, there are to be further detailed consultations. This is essential, and firms with specialist problems will wish to make them perfectly clear to the Minister and to ensure that they are represented in the negotiations in Brussels.
Secondly, we shall welcome an element of further delay during which the matter can be given more detailed consideration. But most important of all—this is the point at which I came to the conclusion that I must suport the Government this evening, despite earlier misgivings—there is the firm assurance concerning the state of the art, which is the ability of the firm to recognise the poten-
1152
tiality of a problem at the point at which a product is created. That will be a great comfort to many firms.
New ideas have in this country frequently been brought forward, taken through the design stage to the very brink of production, and then not been exploited. If the state of the art defence is not permitted to genuine and responsible firms, this may happen all too often in the future.
I find myself, therefore, in agreement with the draft directive, and I welcome the assurances that the Minister has given.
5.53 pm
Mr. John Sever (Birmingham, Lady-wood): Those hon. Members who are not lawyers will have been fascinated by the wranglings of those who are. The nicer and finer points of the law contained in the directive—and, indeed the whole of the legislation surrounding these matters—are fascinating, but, for those who are not lawyers, the arguments are somewhat difficult to understand.
I hope that the Minister, when she replies, will be able to address herself specifically to the point raised by one hon. Member—and referred to by her when she opened the debate—concerning the effect of the directive and the legislation on the printing industry. I am aware that a number of representations have been made to Ministers on this point, but it needs to be emphasised here.
I am sure that those who are anxious about the matter have sought to draw it to the attention of the Minister during the preceding few days.
A substantial printing company in my constituency has written to me. It is my belief, on the evidence given to me and on the argument placed before me, that a number of other companies, not only in Birmingham but across the country, will be faced with a dilemma if the directive is not argued against in a forcible fashion by the Government.
The company is concerned about a number of points, but paramount among them is the worrying aspect of the proposals to the effect that a printer could be held liable for errors in the work that he produces—thereby possibly becoming defined as a producer—although he may have no way of detecting those errors

1153
because of a mistake in the original manuscript from which he is supposed to print. The content of the material may well be of a technical, scientific or medical nature, so that the printer is unable to detect in the manuscript any particular error and prints the material in good faith.
In some cases, the printer may even have the work presented to him in a typeset fashion and may simply be asked to produce the type-setting that has already been prepared for him. In such circumstances, again he would have no idea whether the original type-setting contained mistakes. That would be a potentially dangerous position for him. Unless we can iron this matter out—we have had some assurances that that may happen—printers may find themselves in very considerable difficulty.
In none of these instances has the printer any control over the textual matter, in the sense that it is perfecly understandable to him or to members of his work force. He will therefore go ahead and print the material in good faith, and then possibly find himself the victim of the provisions of the directive.
If a printing company produces technical publications—as does my constituent company—for the motor car industry, it can in no way efficiently detect whether an error is contained in the material that it is asked to print. If something goes radically wrong in the future as a result of that technical publication, a suit may follow against the printer. In my view—and I hope also in the Minister's view—that would be unfair and unreasonable. Therefore, the protection that the printing industry is seeking from the Minister should be forthcoming.
I hope that the Minister's remarks earlier this afternoon will be expanded on a little, because the problem that I have mentioned is giving rise to a great deal of concern across the printing industry. The people to whom I have referred are printers, not engineers. They are printing a great deal of material for the engineering and motor car manufacturing industry which is of a highly sophisticated technical nature, and this may cause them some difficulty in the future if the directive is enacted without proper consideration being given to the point at issue.
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My hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth, Central (Mr. Tilley) referred in passing to the difficulties which publishers of newspapers might face. Perhaps the Minister will be able to refer to that in her reply. From my reading of the directive, it seems possible that if a newspaper publisher were to print, let us say, details of how to operate some particular machinery or some particular product—this might appear in advertisements or elsewhere in the newspaper—and it were to be found later that the instructions given in the newspaper were, through no fault of the printer, incorrect, and this resulted in a substantial accident, there could be a substantial claim for damages against the producer of the articles. The Minister should tell us whether in that sense publishers would find themselves liable to prosecution.
I seek only to emphasise serious and worrying points to the printing and bookbinding industry in the proposed legislation, to ask the Minister for her support for its argument, and to make sure that its fears are allayed and that legislation which might place the industry in this difficulty is avoided.
6.1 pm
Sir Graham Page: What has emerged from every speech so far is that we are dealing with difficult concepts of law that will be difficult to bring within the law of England and of Scotland, and therefore presenting considerable difficulties in drafting. The phrases and terms used, even in the comparatively small amendments in the last directive—phrases such as
"the state of the art defence",
"the liability of producers of components not industrially produced to be incorporated in immovable property"
and particularly the meaning of
"defective"
—will need extremely careful drafting.
I shall assume for the moment that this directive comes within article 100 and can be valid, although I have grave doubts about that. However, let us assume that at some stage the directive receives unanimous approval and that we are obliged to put it into our law. It will then be in the discretion of the Government how it will be introduced into our law. If the European Communities Act is used for this purpose, it could be brought in by administrative action, but I doubt whether any Government

1155
would dare to do that. However, there is the discretion to bring it in by any kind of order. It can be done by an affirmative resolution order—or by an order made subject only to annulment by a prayer in the House.
I ask my right hon. Friend to assure that House that that method of legislation will not be used to bring this law into operation, because, if it is, the House will not have an opportunity to go through the law line by line and word by word as it does with primary legislation. I hope that my right hon. Friend will agree that, in introducing some new concept of the law, we should use a primary legislation—our process of a Bill and an Act of Parliament—so that the House can read it line by line and shape it.
If we are to have primary legislation, I come to the amendment and ask: why not get on with it now? Germany has done so, and so has France to some extent. If we are to have primary legislation to bring in the directive, why should we be shackled by the directive? Let us produce our own law on this matter, the principle of which almost every speaker in the debate has accepted. If, when the directive comes into operation some years hence, we do not have to amend our law, well and good, but we shall have debated it fully in the process of legislation in this place and formed our own concept according to our own law.
I was a little worried when my right hon. Friend said that this directive did not change the law very much. It changes the law basically. Therefore, we need primary legislation. I hope that we shall have the undertaking that, if this has to come into our law, we shall do it by means of a Bill and an Act of Parliament.
6.5 pm
Sir Albert Costain: When I first studied this directive, it seemed a good idea in theory. However, when I considered it in practice, it seemed acceptable only if there were a number of exceptions. I listened to the whole of the debate, and the more I heard the more convinced I became that there would be more exceptions than reality.
No one has drawn attention to the building industry, my connections with which are not unknown to the House. If
1156
the architect or the engineer designs a product and the contractor manufactures it, who is to blame for any fault? If the contractor is under a contract to do as the architect tells him, it is virtually impossible for him to alter the specification. If a contractor is to be told "Before you tender for work, you must check that the architect has properly designed the product", I should point out that not many contracting companies have the staff with the ability to do that. If the directive is approved, there is a strong possibility that architects will go out of business and the construction industry will end up with contractors, or the engineers will be absorbed by the contractors.
Copper fittings are used in building. Certain copper fittings depend on solder to be effective. In 90 per cent. of cases, those copper fittings are satisfactory, but in the remaining 10 per cent. soft water will in time dissolve the solder and cause lead poisoning and a defective system. Who will be to blame in those cases? Will the water company be to blame for allowing that type of fitting to be used? Will the manufacturer be to blame for failing to specify where copper fittings should or should not be used?
Another difficulty is that if a company is to have a liability for 10 years, how can it close its accounts? How can it produce a balance sheet showing profits when, under the Companies Act, it must disclose the whole of its liabilities? Some hon. Members may say that companies must insure against future liability. However, many insurance companies will not accept an open-ended liability. For example, as an underwriter, I know that Lloyd's closes its accounts every three years. It will be extremely difficult for Lloyd's to cover any risk for more than three years. We are talking here of a 10-year risk. Companies can reinsure, but, by the time they have reinsured three times what will be the cost of the product?
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I do not want to dissent from what my hon. Friend is saying, but I have some difficulty in following him. Under the Sale of Goods Act 1893, there is a six-year liability. That is the limitation period for breach of contract. The big suppliers cover their liabilities under the Sale of Goods Act. That implies insurance cover that lasts throughout the six-year limitation period.
Sir A. Costain: My hon. Friend is right about big companies. They have reserves which they reckon to carry over for a period of time. I am interested in the small manufacturing company which has not got the reserves and which may, for its own purposes, wish to keep its profits low. It may not want to pay tax. It will have to say "We cannot declare a profit because we have this unknown liability". It might affect taxation, and the Treasury would not be pleased about that.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will assure the House that before any final decision is taken she will enter into consultations with architects, engineers and contractors in the civil engineering and building industries.
6.9 pm
Mr. lain Mills: I welcome the opportunity of speaking tonight as one who, until election to this honourable House, spent 18 years in manufacturing industry, in the car components sector. It was therefore with considerable interest that I heard much of the discussion and argument tonight. It is sad, to some extent, that there has been so little real manufacturing industry experience dictated on the Floor of the House this evening, but I shall do what I can to try to make up for that.
First, I welcome the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Minister, particularly on the state of the art defence and the other points concerning the length of time available for further discussions. Those in manufacturing industry will be very pleased to hear that. However, one has to recognise that society in the Western economic areas has moved to a point at which there will be an increasing difficulty in deciding how our communities' interests can be guarded against the balance of the very real problem of the effect of this guardianship on our international ability to compete, on the prices of our products, and on our ability to innovate. To create a society, however protective and however beneficial that might seem, through an increasingly complex structure of bureaucratic controls will lead to the very stagnation in industrial development and competiveness that we are trying to prevent.
We debate today a very significant change, perhaps the most significant change that has been seen in the United
1158
Kingdom, in the responsibilities to the consumer of those who produce. The measure that we are debating will move the task of proving fault from the aggrieved consumer to the manufacturer. Although under existing law there is an essence of strict liability, this change will be quite fundamental.
In essence, the change seems to be attractive and admirable, as one can presume that the consumer is an individual without resource or with scant resource, and that he has been up against the huge resources of companies and industries. The truth, however, is that this is not always so. In my many years in manufacturing industry, I have learnt that in general United Kingdom manufacturers have considerable social responsibility and that the very disciplines of the market place themselves demand that products that are defective are not produced. The huge growth in quality control and in the use of techniques designed to ensure that products are reliable and are not defective come from this essence of the market place. If one's product does not perform, one does not sell it; and, if it is a competitive market, that could easily mean sudden and not slow death for a manufacturer.
The amount of time, trouble and effort that responsible companies in this country have gone to in resolving problems is considerable. One is anxious, therefore, not to load them further with unnecessary bureaucratic controls. Indeed, one could go further and say that the real difficulty lies with smaller firms that do not have the same capability as larger firms both to fund payments to obtain the right level of insurance and—this is a point that has been made by a previous speaker—to face the difficulty that small firms have in negotiating in the complex insurance market.
Many big companies have insurance managers, insurance departments, and legal departments, all of which know which brokers to go to. One would see, for example, a small innovatory company growing up—just the very seed corn that we wish to encourage—battling with an unscrupulous insurance broker for a form of cover that was quite inadequate and without the skills needed to know what to go for. So to add to the problems of the small manufacturer who is presently under the extreme pressures of the poor

1159
economic situation would make things very difficult.
In looking at the directive in detail, I should say, first of all, having been fairly critical at the onset of my speech, that I recognise that, in meeting the social and community expectations of the Community, the fundamental change from the existing negligence system to strict liability is inevitable. Much of what I have said about increasing bureaucracy and the increasing problems of firms can still be achieved if one accepts this inevitable change through the details contained in this slightly complex document. I am not saying that I oppose the acceptance of the principle. Like most speakers tonight, I feel that it is inevitable. It is part of society's change. In an increasingly sophisticated society, the requirement for more liability or more protection will arise. But it is the way in which we do it or the way in which this fundamental change applies in certain areas that will be important.
Other speakers tonight have mentioned the experience in America. I should like to touch briefly on that before going on in more detail on the points in the motion. I am informed that in the United States of America and in Canada the lessons are rather interesting. Both liability claims and cases increased from around 50,000 annually in 1960 to 500.000 in the early 1970s. In 10 years, they rose 10 times. The estimate that I have been given for 1977 is that claims are approaching about 1 million. The average loss per product liability claim has increased in the United States and Canada at a much higher rate than inflation. In 1965, the average claim was about $12,000. This compares in 1973 with $100,000, against an inflationary increase in that period of about 60 per cent. So the cost of claims in the United States and Canada increased by about 700 per cent., whilst inflation rose by about 60 per cent.
Obviously there are fundamental differences in our legal systems, not the least of which is the lawyer's share in the profits, as it were, of the claims. One is very glad that this is so. But there is a word of warning tonight. If one allows loopholes to exist in the detail of this document which are unfair to those who are fundamental to our process of
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manufacture in this country, experience elsewhere shows that these loopholes will be found. It is therefore vital that we make sure that we avoid the use of terms and wording that may be interpreted by courts too liberally or in any other way to mirror the American experience.
I touch again upon the cost consequences of the strict liability legislation, if and when it comes. Although the inevitability of this change is acceptable to me—in fact, one can claim considerable benefits from it—the net consequence, if one is to give people a better and fairer system which will cover those who are apparently at present not getting fair compensation must be that the money has to come from somewhere. The simple answer is that the money will come from the consumer's pocket, through various means, and it will have to do that through price increases for products, which will not, as some organisations have claimed, be small.
I am again told by some companies that, if the legilsation goes through as planned, they anticipate an increase in their insurance premiums of between 100 per cent. and 200 per cent. for relatively safe products—safe in the sense that they are not high-risk products. In high-risk products in, say, the aviation industry, these insurance increases could be as much as 500 per cent., so I think that we should be realistic tonight in reckoning that the extra cost of doing what we believe is socially and politically correct will hit the consumer's pocket, and that will be both inflationary and result in an increase in the purchase price of such products as are affected.
It may be possible for some firms with relatively low-risk products to try to absorb the costs of this, but in the end one must say that not only will the consequences be higher costs but the other effects cannot be absorbed. For example, companies will have to consider further research and development costs of the defence of nature, so in addition to higher insurance costs, will not the companies about which we are talking say to themselves "If we produce product A and we are to face these claims, why do we not develop product A so that we shall not get the claims?"
That area of development might not be to produce a better product, a more energy-efficient product, a product that

1161
does the job better, or a lighter product. It will be a product developed to avoid claims. One might almost say that if one has a beam carrying weight, one may use a 6 in. RSJ instead of a light wooden beam. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Sir A. Costain), who is involved in the construction industry, would know more about that than I. However, it means that the stultification of development and the change of resources away from positive development to negative and defensive development could be quite considerable, and the sterility of that form of development could be quite dangerous.
I also thank my right hon. Friend's colleagues in the Department of Trade for their kindness to me on the many occasions on which I have contacted them about counterfeiting. I apologise to my right hon. Friend for raising this matter tonight. It seems that, in the United Kingdom, many products—especially in my area of expertise, the motor car industry and the car components industry—will not be subject to the strict procedures that we are proposing to apply to United Kingdom and European companies. For example, it may be extremely difficult to trace the producers of cardboard brake linings in some back-street part of Hong Kong or Korea. How will strict liability apply to what one might describe as back-street imported products?
I understand that it may be possible to apply strict liability to imported products that come through regular channels and regular retailers, but many retailers who deal with cardboard brake shoes would prefer to go into liquidation than settle claims. If that happens, what will the consumer do who has crashed his car and injured himself badly as a result?
I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware of the concern among manufacturing industrial companies of the increase in counterfeits, especially those that are being sold under brand names. The source of manufacture of such products is not easily identifiable. When famous British names are stamped on the boxes of such products, there is great difficulty in proving that the used product came from elsewhere. That difficulty adds to manufacturers' problems.
The most important part of the debate must be the state of the art defence.
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In my 18 years of industrial experience, I was for a time chief designer of a department. I know how closely and critically it is necessary to control designs and how easy it is to restrain the innovative initiative of individuals and companies by restrictions. As one who sat at the drawing board and designed products and who later in his career was responsible for the claims made for marketed products, I know how lengthy, cumbersome and detailed the process is, under existing law, to decide whether to claim that the product can fly, go under the ground or go to the moon. It is against that claim that product liability cases will be held.
I must congratulate my right hon. Friend on her decision to ensure that the state of the art argument is included in the directive. The state of the art can be described as the technical and scientific knowledge available to the manufacturer at the time when the product is being designed. Development risk is the risk that a manufacturer takes when he introduces to the market a potentially hazardous product. In the past, there must have been manufacturers who said "It is quicker and cheaper to get the public to do our development work". In these days, the markets for such firms must be few and far between.
The objections to the present wording of the directive come from the majority of manufacturing and industrial companies in the United Kingdom and throughout Europe. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will find that the debates in Parliaments in Europe in which members with industrial interests take part will aid her efforts to ensure that all the member States of the EEC allow progress to be made on the directive.
Article 5 has been extended since the appearance of the orginal document to include a reference to contributory negligence. That is a vital protection, especially in the automotive industry, where car maintenance by the owner has a special importance. I cannot resist the temptation to ask my right hon. Friend what would be the position under contributory negligence if the owner of a car was not wearing his or her seat belt at the time when he or she had an accident.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: Does my hon. Friend want an answer?
Mr. Mills: I should like to try to answer the question myself, but if my hon. Friend feels that he must do so——
Mr. Hogg: No.
Mr. Mills: It is a difficult question. If he or she is using the seat belt at the time of the accident, injuries will be restricted. I happen to think that it is sensible to wear a belt. I should like to see the use of seat belts made compulsory by law. If a person is not wearing his or her seat belt when an accident takes place, what will happen? Will the car manufacturer be liable under strict liability for all the damages resulting from the injuries, or death, that could have been prevented had the seat belt been worn?
In the automotive industry, it is felt that there is almost an inevitability that the MOT test will have to be reexamined. A car that is nine and a half years old may pass the MOT test, having had three, four or five owners, without a brake inspection. No one takes off the shoes. It is not necessary to do so under the terms of the present test. The brakes are checked on a drum, or on the road.
There are many factors that give rise to great apprehension among those in the automotive industry about the MOT test. The present test is far better than not having anything but, under strict liability, the industry will have to live for 10 years with the possibility that, if the motorist does not maintain his car, the industry may be liable. The extension of article 5 to include contributory negligence is especially important to the industry.
I turn to article 6, and the private use category concerning company cars and hire cars used on business. Will a motorist driving a car provided by his company, or driving a car that has been hired for the use of business, come within the private use category? Will he be excluded from it in some way? I shall be most grateful if I receive my right hon. Friend's advice.
Article 7 refers to injuries
"caused by identical articles having the same defect".
That subject has attracted some discussion. We must ensure that the article is worded carefully. If there is a maximum limit—I am sure that there should be—and if there are thousands of products
1164
involved, a clever lawyer might say "Those articles are not identical". For example, would a Ford Cortina 1300 saloon be classed as a product different from a Ford Cortina 1600 station wagon? Would a lawyer claim that those cars were different products, although they were fitted with identical components and were otherwise of similar design?
Many products made by the plastics industry might have variations of weight, because the process is not absolutely accurate. Tolerances are a way of life in many industries. It may be claimed that one product is fractionally larger or heavier than another. Such a variation might enable a lawyer to push up the damages claimed. I shall be grateful to have my right hon. Friend's comments.
Article 8 gives a claimant three years to bring proceedings when he has become aware of the damage caused by defective products and to identify the producer. Is it in the interests of all concerned to have the three-year provision? I understand that cross-frontier negotiations cause lengthy proceedings.
Having accepted that we want strict liability, the manufacturer will have to carry the can. Surely he should be able to take that responsibility and pay damages to the customer within a relatively short period. Are we to see manufacturers having ever-larger legal offices filled with highly paid staff who can spend up to three years on negotiations? Surely one year or two years would be sufficient to enable proceedings to be brought when all the facts are known. I shall be grateful to hear my right hon. Friend's views on why three years are needed.
Strict liability for the producer will be extinguished on the expiry of 10 years. I know that under the present law there is no limit. The 10-year provision will cause problems for those manufacturing consumer durables, such as motor cars. After 10 years, the average motor car will have travelled many miles. Components will probably have been changed. They may have been subject to many forms or no form of maintenance. If a component fails, it will become increasingly difficult to establish whether the failure is due to an original defect—some form of design failure—to lack of maintenance, or to wear and tear. Legal colleagues may

1165
appreciate this difficulty more or less than colleagues with engineering backgrounds. If we could be sure that we could identify the cause of failure in a car nine and a half years or 10 years of age, we would be pleased. There have been many court cases on that issue.
I appreciate my right hon. Friend's comments about the state of the art and the length of time involved. The automotive and engineering industries would greatly appreciate a step-by-step approach, with as much consultation as possible. In that way, justice and fairness would be achieved.
6.29 pm
Mr. R. A. McCrindle: I declare an interest, as I am the parliamentary adviser to the British Insurance Brokers Association. Among the members of that association are many of those intermediaries who have arranged product liability cover under the present law. Indeed, many manufacturers will turn to them for product liability cover if and when the directive is implemented.
The research headquarters of May and Baker, the pharmaceutical and agrochemicals concern, is in my constituency. My experience leads me to one conclusion, namely, that the simplistic approach must be put on one side. It is difficult to agree with those who speak on behalf of industry and say that any movement towards the acceptance of absolute liability would be so crippling in terms of cost that we should stay where we are. On the other hand. I do not find it any easier to respond favourably to those consumer groups which believe that absolute liability should be pursued irrespective of the cost to manufacturing industry.
As with most aspects of life, I have come to the conclusion that a balance is the only solution. I understand the concern of manufacturers about the possible cost of insurance. They are concerned mainly about the effect of costs on the public. Manufacturing industry feels that anything approaching absolute liability of an unqualified type would have an adverse effect on new invention. Perhaps that is more important. It might act as a deterrent to the development of products that were in the public interest.
It is impossible to debate such a subject without mentioning Thalidomide.
1166
We must gain some perspective. No one could disagree with the points raised by the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) about Thalidomide victims, but can we be certain that the manufacturers of products that might have been beneficial to the public for many years would not have been deterred from the necessary research and development if they had thought that they might be held absolutely liable for anything that went wrong? A balance must be retained.
The directive tries to get away from the concept of absolute liability by introducing such qualifications as limits of liability and time limits. Although I welcome those qualifications, they are not the only solution. We must proceed carefully. I regret that I must tell those who are anxious for the provisions to be implemented, after such a long period of discussion, that we must ensure that we have found the right balance.
Much has been said about the availability and cost of insurance. Although I have listened to most of the debate, I have not heard any hon. Member ask whether, if absolute liability were introduced, the insurance market would have the capacity to provide the necessary cover. It is easy to rush head-on into acceptance of absolute liability without posing that fundamental question. When this issue was first discussed, it was doubtful whether insurance companies and Lloyd's could have found the necessary capacity. A sizeable additional capacity has built up on the London market since the discussion on this subject began.
I am not authorised to speak on behalf of the insurance industry, but the capacity exists to provide the necessary cover. However, that capacity will be available only at a cost. I am as close to the insurance industry as are most hon. Members, but I have never heard any suggestion that the product liability premium might be increased five times in some high risk areas. Until we know what the qualifications will be, it is impossible to give such figures.
I understand from my friends in the insurance world that the capacity is there "at the right price". When one probes what the right price might be, one finds that it is not considered that the price is excessive in comparison with the product liability premiums paid for a

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policy giving cover under the existing law. Emotive figures such as those given for the premium for key risks, or a supposed doubling of the premium for relatively minimal risks, cannot be known. Such statements might give the wrong impression to those manufacturers who are concerned, and who do not want estimates that cannot be proved added to that worry.
I have heard suggestions to the effect that it will be impossible to obtain cover for unlimited liability. Under product liability, general public liability or third party liability, it has long been possible to obtain a policy with limited liability in respect of one accident, or a series of accidents arising from one cause, but with unlimited liability in terms of the total amount payable in any one year. I believe that that approach will continue. If a policy holder is covered for an indemnity of £500,000 now, it would be wrong to assume that, if he wished to increase it to £l½ million, it would necessarily involve tripling the premium. In practice, that is not so. In those circumstances, the premium would probably rise by no more than 25 per cent., although it would probably depend upon the risk and the insurer. That figure should put into perspective some of the fears that have been expressed.
It is suggested that contributory negligence should remain a defence. It will reduce the likely cost of insurance cover. I agree with the majority of speakers who have said that, if we cannot move towards acceptance of unqualified liability, qualification of that liability by the state of the art is as good a solution as anyone has put forward.
I believe that an equally strong point to be pursued was raised by the right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North, namely, do we minimise—and that is what we are considering—what would come under a cover for absolute liability by saying that property damage would not be included and only personal injury should be covered? The right hon. Gentleman said that most people tended to effect insurance on their property. I am not sure that statistics entirely bear that out, but certainly there are more who do that than those who effect an insurance cover against personal injury. It we are trying to move towards general acceptance of
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this matter within the manufacturing industry and consumer groups, I believe that that is a reasonable and acceptable qualification to absolute liability.
Like most other hon. Members, I believe that there is an inevitability about this and that we must move towards an acceptance of a greater degree of liability than is accepted at present. But we should stop short of absolute liability, and we should consider some of the qualifications that I have outlined as a reasonable method of moving the matter forward.
6.42 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: I ask the House to acquit me of discourtesy in not having been here since the opening speeches. The House expects hon. Members to take part in the EEC legislation Committee, which in a sense straddles the subject. When one has Ministers coming before the Committee, it is equally a discourtesy to them not to turn up at the Committee. One has to make a decision. I hope that I shall be excused, because the point that I make will be extremely short.
My main point concerns the vexed problem of homologation, which is of great importance to the motor industry. I declare my interest, in that I represent the British Leyland truck and tractor division at Bathgate. Like other sectors of the motor industry, it is extremely worried by this problem. When it comes to exports from the Community to this country, we are very efficient and quick about making quite clear what standards we expect. Often, the documentation can be completed in 10 days or a fortnight for vehicles coming from the Community to this country. That applies also to vehicles coming from other countries abroad, including Japan.
However, there appears to be a very different position with our exports. Time and again, there is great difficulty in meeting all the demands not only of insurance but of standards, and it is more than a suspicion that these delays on the part of our partners and other countries are not just simple inefficiency. There is a growing amount of evidence that many of the delays are a matter of policy to ensure that while the delay is taking place, it becomes easier for the industries in the countries of import to meet any requirements that may have been laid down by

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the Community. I think that I detected a nod from my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser), who is on the Front Bench.
This is a problem that can be extended beyond the motor vehicle industry, but I only know about that industry. Is it not time to look at this whole morass of documentation and delay when it comes to exporting reasonably sophisticated vehicles from this country? We are really disadvantaged, and I speak as an hon. Member who was pro-EEC. We are disadvantaged by purposeful delay by others—it is in fact a hidden form of protection of the industry of other countries to the disadvantage of ours.
Finally, I ask the Minister to undertake—possibly not off the top of her head—to look into this problem. It is well known to Ministers in the Scottish Office. It was put in detail to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, so he and his office know all about it. I hope that this matter will be taken on board as one of great importance. There is no easy answer, and I certainly do not expect one tonight, but I wish to register that this is a matter of great concern to the motor industry, both management and trade unions.
6.46 pm
Mr. Tony Marlow: I start by apologising to my right hon. Friend for not being here when she opened the debate with what I understand was a first-class speech. I had a constituency engagement, and this debate came on at short notice. I apologise profusely. I am also rather sorry that so few hon. Members from the Opposition are present for a very important debate. I find it hard to understand why they are not here in more force this evening [Interruption]. I am told that they are upstairs.
One Labour Member made a point about many lawyers speaking in this debate. I am sure that what I am about to say is not the reason why they spoke in this debate, but I believe that, if the legislation were passed, it would be an absolute gold mine for the legal profession.
I wish to say a few words about the principle involved and then a few more words about some of the details. As
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hon. Members have already said, there is some doubt about the competence of the European Commission to introduce directives in this area. I believe that this is the case. Rather than support my right hon. Friend in the principle of the legislation, we should suggest to her that she fights the rights and privileges of the European Community to introduce this legislation so that we can introduce our own legislation here, rather than get secondhand laws from Brussels. I know the reason why this is brought from Brussels: it is thought that in Europe we should all have the same industrial cost structure and that we should harmonise our costs so that no one country has an unfair competitive advantage over another within the EEC. Important though this matter is, I submit that its effect on costs between the different countries of Europe, if we had different legislation, would be very limited compared with some of the other factors, which cause far greater cost differences and competitive differences within Europe at present.
I refer briefly to what has happened to the value of sterling. It was 3·7 against the Deutschemark in February 1979. It is now virtually 4·7—a change of 30 per cent. at a time when our rate of inflation and our cost increases have been even higher than those of Germany. In France, in the same period there has been a change of 25 per cent. There has been an increase of 30 per cent. against the Italian lira. If we are trying to trade fairly and equitably across the Market, these factors have a far greater effect than the competitive differences of such legislation as we are now discussing. It may be said that this is our currency and we can do something about it, but the fact of North sea oil makes that very difficult.
There are other aspects on which other European countries are now acting unfairly with a far greater effect. For example, there is the matter of fuel prices. In the United Kingdom, the price per therm of natural gas is 23·6p. In France, it is 15·2p per therm, and I understand that we have more natural gas than the French. Will this not have a far greater effect on the competitive and fair trading position vis-a-vis France than the legislation that we are now considering?

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We still have a positive budget contribution of £370 million. We are required to buy European food at enhanced prices. Added together, that amounts to an additional cost of £1,000 million, which is equivalent to £2 a week added to the cost of every worker in manufacturing in this country. That is a massive burden for the country to sustain. Why are we talking about harmonisation in this area when we have much larger burdens in others? We should get the beam right before we start talking about the mote.
Turning to the detail, the present law in this country is unsatisfactory. If I get injured by a swing that I have bought for my child, I can take the matter up against the shop that sold it, but, if my child is injured by it, I may have to take the matter up against the manufacturer. That is wrong. We should do something to rectify it.
The proposal will mean a massive increase in cost for industry. To our chagrin, we have introduced fire precautions and health and safety at work precautions that have caused concern to and additional cost for commercial enterprises. Is now the time to place further burdens on our industry?
Printing has been mentioned. The printer sometimes receives a copy from the advertiser in a camera-ready state or on a tape. If the wrong information is provided in the advertisement, who is to blame—the printer or the person who provided the copy? The legislation proposed offers great scope for legal argument and litigation. An article could be described incorrectly in a catalogue for electrical goods, toys, photographic materials, clothing or footwear. A garment could be described as pure wool, whereas it is later manufactured in artificial fibre, which could cause skin disorder. Who is liable? All these points will have to be cleared up.
Let me give one further example concerning the retrospective technical problem, although it is not directly applicable as it concerns agricultural produce, which is not covered by the legislation. It was once suggested that cancer could be caused by eating tomatoes. If a product that is perfectly acceptable now is proved
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in three years' time to be carcinogenous, will people suffering from cancer be able to sue the nurseryman for damages, even though the goods were produced in advance of the legislation? That would be absurd.
With regard to the amendment, the routine is for the House to take note. Having done so, the Government will discuss the directive in the Council of Ministers. We are told that eventually the directive will be agreed unanimously. We have an excellent Government, who will fight an excellent battle and do their best to ensure an excellent directive. However, in a late night session, the Government may feel inclined to compromise with a view to getting a more satisfactory result on another issue. We wish to reserve the position of the House.
Unamended, the motion urges the House to meet certain conditions, but the judgment whether those conditions are met lies with the Government. In effect, by the amendment, if the House believes that those conditions are not met, the take-note motion that we are discussing will not have taken place and no notice will have been taken of the motion. Therefore the directive, which we would be bound by Community law to pass, would be in doubt, as the House would not previously have taken note of the content that it would be then disapprovine.
6.56 pm
Mr. David Crouch: Only last week, in the debate on procedure, we failed to agree to an amendment that would have taken care of the very matter that my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) is concerned with, namely, that the Government should not proceed to orders without reference to the House. We wanted a chance to debate a decision if it was made without an order coming before the House. We wanted the opportunity to hear a statement and ask questions. I do not go all the way with my hon. Friend's emphasis, but he has raised an important point.
I am much concerned with product liability, as I am involved in the chemical and pharmaceutical industries. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister for Consumer Affairs on her cautious step forward in the way that the motion

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is worded. It is a beautifully conservative approach, of which I thoroughly approve. We urge
"the Government to ensure that during further consideration full account is taken of the arguments that people injured by defective products should be entitled to adequate and prompt compensation and that undue burdens should not be imposed on industry."
That is a nice and right balance.
The matter is not new. It has been considered over at least 10 years. We have had two Law Commissions and one Royal Commission, and the Strasbourg Convention of the Council of Europe. The EEC Commission came forward with the draft directive proposals four years ago. I am particularly indebted to the Legal Affairs Committee of the European Parliament for its thorough and in-depth study, about which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) spoke. He was a member of that committee when he was in the European Parliament. That document is extremely valuable and illustrates how this Parliament can and does interact with the European Parliament. The study by the House of Commons Select Committee on European Legislation &c. provides an essential safeguard in spotting dangers and referring them back to this House. I am also indebted to the other place for its Committee's fiftieth report, on the study of liability for defective products.
As well as being grateful to my right hon. Friend for having proceeded slowly, I am grateful to her for her imagination in introducing the state of the art into article 1 and including that reservation. I am sure that she has had many representations, not least from lawyers and those who say that the state of the art does not obtain in some other countries, but she has decided wisely to advance that case to the House.
It is necessary to take account of the recall action by the producer of a product which was proposed by the Legal Affairs Committee of the European Parliament, which said that
"the producer shall not be liable where, as soon as he has become or ought to have become cognisant of the defect, he has taken adequate and timely steps to inform the public and adopted furthermore all measures, which, having regard to the circumstances of the case, might reasonably help to eliminate the injurious effect of the defect."
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The Strasbourg convention and the Royal Commission did not take that view.
A move towards stricter liability is inevitable, but the proposal in the draft directive to introduce a system of no-fault liability, which has been proved to be unsatisfactory and unwise economically in other countries, should be avoided. The hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) referred to the United States law on strict liability. I take issue with him, because I am advised that recent proposals to introduce a mandatory federal product liability law in the United States has shown up the disadvantages of the proposals in the draft directive. The United States law specifically allows the defence for a producer who, in the light of scientific and technical knowledge at the time the product was put into circulation, could not have been aware that it was defective. The state of the art defence has been accepted in that law.
If development risks were not allowed as a defence, certain special provisions for compensation could be required in industries of high innovative risk, in order to compensate for widespread damage resulting from unforseeable side effects. Such situations might have needed separate financing if my right hon. Friend had not decided to include the state of the art defence.
The sort of legislation that could result from the directive would have the effect, but for the state of the art defence, of discouraging innovation and investment. It would be detrimental to the progress of society and the health of the economy, and it would be to the disadvantage of the consumer.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: My hon. Friend is suggesting that a state of the art defence should be incorporated in the directive. Does he accept that the state of the art defence is not a defence to an action under the Sale of Goods Act for a breach of sections 13 or 14?
Mr. Crouch: I am left in the air by my hon. Friend's intervention, and I am not able to cope with it at this stage. He may seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and explain in more simple terms exactly what he means. In the meantime, I refuse to be deflected.
If we were to have the directive without the modification suggested by my right hon. Friend, it would produce a

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system of no-fault liability, with inadequate defences. Such a system has already been found to be unworkable in the United States. It would be a backward step and could prove disastrous to our economic progress in the new scientific world that lies ahead. It would greatly restrict innovation and would lead to the practice by doctors of what is called safety-first medicine.
Drugs are made by manufacturers, but are prescribed by doctors. As was observed before the Pearson Commission, a system of no fault liability would lead not only to a restriction of innovation, invention and investment in the pharmaceutical industry but to doctors guarding themselves against any possibility of a side effect, perhaps not yet thought of. That is not the way to help sick people.
I hope that my right hon. Friend can help me on article 4. The EEC document states:
"The word 'apparently' means that the use is determined by public opinion and not by the producer himself."
That must be clarified. The acceptable use of, for example, a medicine must be the purpose for which it has been placed on the market by the producer or, indeed, the purpose for which it has been authorised by the competent authority, and not whatever use public opinion thinks that it ought to be for.
The document from the European Parliament states on article 5:
"The producer shall not be liable if he proves that he did not put the article into circulation or that it was not defective when he put it into circulation."
That Parliament said, in effect, that further amendment was needed to ensure that a product should not be regarded as defective if, when put into circulation, it complied with, or exceeded, mandatory standards of safety or quality as laid down by the Government and/or the EEC.
On article 7, I am not happy with the concept of limitation of total liability. That may sound strange when I have been arguing as one concerned with industry rather than insurance or as a lawyer, which I am not. But, some injured persons may remain under-compensated or not be compensated at all if we have a total sum available. The setting of
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a limit in insurance matters is normal practice, so perhaps it is necessary. However, in that case it should also be flexible.
There might be a need for the provision of State assistance when there is a catastrophe. State funds could be used to top up what is available under the limits prescribed by the directive from the producer and his insurers. The State should be ready to assist the individual, without putting impossible shackles on industry.
I welcome the approach of my right hon. Friend the Minister. It has been a helpful debate, and it is important to consumers, individuals, our society and our manufacturing industry. Of course, it is also important that our lawyers should be satisfied that we will get good law coming out of Europe, based on the right legal assumptions.
As we rush through the closing stages of the debate, I take the point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen that the concept of introducing the doctrine of product liability was probably based on the wrong article in the Treaty of Rome. Whether that is true, one can understand a general move towards product liability. Even manufacturers accept that. They have a responsibility towards society, and they do not intend to shirk it, but there are sometimes limits.
7.8 pm
Mr. Ivan Lawrence: I declare an interest, since the only certain beneficiaries from the directive are likely to be lawyers. But before we rush through the closing stages, I should like to speak against that interest.
There has been a substantial measure of common ground in the debate. There is wide agreement that the existing law is no longer to be considered adequate to provide a remedy for someone who is injured or suffers loss from a defective product, whether because of the doctrine of privity of contract, the frequent inability of a small retailer to pay for loss, or the difficulty of suing a manufacturer for negligence.
Secondly, it is agreed that a degree of further protection for the consumer is necessary. That much agreed, two questions follow. First, how shall the law be

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made more adequate? Secondly, how far is it practicable to go in providing a remedy?
As to how the law should be made more adequate, the draft directive is clearly not a sensible way, since it is doubtful whether it is intra vires article 100, as is claimed and therefore it will give rise to long legal wranglings. Since there has been no response to requests from such quarters as the House of Lords Select Committee for figures showing how the strict liability in force in, for example, France, Belgium and Luxembourg gives rise to distortions of competition, the vires point seems to be extremely doubtful. If the law is to be changed, it should be done by way of a convention outside the Treaty or by way of the amendment suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lloyd) and by statute in the House, as requested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Sir G. Page) It should certainly not be done by way of this directive.
The question arises how far it is practicable for this reform to go. Hon. Members have drawn attention to so many problems raised by the directive as to make it impracticable for it to operate in Britain. My right hon. Friend would doubtless exercise the right of veto in the Council of Ministers.
The National Consumer Council has produced a well thought-out and well expressed argument. I should like to know, however, how the consumer would benefit if the directive deterred development in high-risk technological industries or in the pharmaceutical industry. How will it protect the consumer if the cost of insurance is so great that no one can afford to produce the product, thereby depriving the consumer of a competitive product and depriving him of choice?
I am delighted that the Government will insist on the state of the art defence. Nothing could do more to inhibit innovation and enterprise or seriously increase costs than to make manufacturers liable for injury caused by defects existing at the time but whose existence could not have been discovered by anyone, given the technical and scientific knowledge then existing. That is most definitely not an anti-consumer point of view. It was, after all, none other than Mr. Gordon Borrie, Director General of Fair Trading, who said in April this year that
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liability to development risks might well inhibit innovation and that potentially valuable advantages in technology and pharmaceuticals might not even be attempted.
While it would be misleading to cite the experience of the United States of strict liability as proof of what would happen here, the American experience is not without interest and should perhaps serve as a warning for us. My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Mills) gave figures of a tenfold increase in claims following the introduction of product liability. I believe that my hon. Friend understated the effect on premiums. My figures show that there was a 26-fold increase in insurance premiums
Juries trying civil actions with lawyers on contingency fees doubtless have much to do with this development, but it cannot possibly explain the entire 26-fold increase. The result was that the United States Department of Commerce introduced a Model Uniform Product Liability Bill in October 1979. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) understated its effect. Its main effect was to reintroduce the doctrine of fault. It is too early to say whether it will be adopted by state legislatures. We should however, take warning from that trend and tendency.
The right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) played down the additional cost argument. The right hon. Gentleman said that the additional costs would face all countries and that no unfair competition would therefore result. That attitude displays a confidence in the working of the Common Market that I am not sure the right hon. Gentleman himself always shares when it comes, for example, to the possible use of illegal subsidies in some industries in some other countries which are our partners. I should like to read to the House a comment by Mr. John Ireland, director of one of the leading tyre producers in the world, based in my Burton constituency. I refer to Pirelli. After stating that it is impossible at present to get any worthwhile estimate from the insurance industry of what insurance costs might be involved, except the statement "considerable", he says:
"Another area of considerable cost increase and open to great differences between

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competing companies is the meticulous record which will have to be kept in great detail to ensure component and material trace for up to ten years. Voluminous representations have been recorded indicating our industry's concern over many lesser details such as unclear liability chain where multiple components or materials may have contributed to a defect, the time limitations and the inadequacy of enforcement of similar liabilities on importations.
I mention them in that they could be important to our particular competitive position if, as unfortunately has often proved the case with other directives, the degree to which directives and their subsequent legislation in member countries are enforced varies widely between the same member countries, with our own setting the example for observing the letter of the law.
Should this happen in this case our industry in the United Kingdom and therefore our own company of Pirelli Ltd.—already pressurised by cheap and sometimes inferior imports—could be put at a serious competitive disadvantage and forced to reduce its level of activity with consequent effects upon employment levels and indeed even to the extent of our total viability."
In addition, the CBI has estimated that insurance cover on a £10 million risk would cost about £200,000 and that the cost of the directive to industry could amount to £200 million. What this would do to profit margins, viability and eventually employment, one can only guess.
When one adds to the cost objections the long catalogue of further objections heard this afternoon, it is obvious that there can be little support in the House for the directive, however strong our wish to extend consumer protection. Why should damage to property be included whose only effect would be to lead to double insurance and additional cost? Is not "defective" a term, as defined, so hopelessly wide as to be ridiculous? Does the scope of damage extend beyond pain and suffering to purely economic loss? Would printers in my constituency and elsewhere be liable for printing errors? What is the point of including accidents at work within the directive when these are already subject to comprehensive legislation?
What protection exists under this directive for the pharmaceutical manufacturer when it is difficult to distinguish between illness caused by medical treatment and the acquired condition that the patient may have achieved? If a producer takes adequate and immediate steps to prevent potential damage from a defective pro-
1180
duct in circulation, why should there be no defence of recall? If the producer is complying with the statutory requirements, for example, in safety standards and injury results, why should that not be a defence?
Is it any wonder that this measure has had such a chequered history since the first draft directive was published in August 1974? Is it any wonder that so few hon. Members have had a good word to say for the directive? I believe that most hon. Members would say to the Council of Ministers about this directive. "Reject it, please, as it stands", and would say to the Commission "Take it away, consider it yet again, and bring it back to us for further consideration this day several years hence".
7.18 pm
Mr. Douglas Hogg: I shall not detain the House for long. I support the directive and regard it as a valuable extension of consumer rights.
I should like to comment on a number of misapprehensions 'under which my hon. Friends are labouring. The first relates to the Sale of Goods Act. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Griffiths) stressed the difficulties that the directive would cause to manufacturers within his constituency, and particularly to one small manufacturer, but he has failed to appreciate the impact of the Sale of Goods Act and amending legislation upon that manufacturer. If the manufacturer sells goods that are not reasonably fit for the purpose for which they are sold, or, alternatively, are not of merchantable quality, he will be liable to the person who buys those goods from him, not merely for the value of the goods in question, but for any consequential loss that the purchaser may suffer.
Reference has been made to the state of the art defence. As hon. Members will know, the state of the art defence is no answer to an action for breach of sections 13 and 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1893, which provide that goods shall be reasonably fit. This is a step forward, though not a large one. We are working on established precedent.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Sir A. Costain) said that the insurance industry would find it difficult to meet liability because the

1181
liability might extend for some time. With respect to my hon. Friend, he misunderstands the position. Actions in contract, that is, in breach of the Sale of Goods Act, can be brought at any time within six years of the breach, and in certain circumstances for significantly longer. Most manufacturers insure their liability for breach of the Sale of Goods Act. It follows that insurers are already covering the type of liability, in terms of length of time, that is contemplated by the directive. I see no essential difference.
Hon. Members have spoken about the limitation period for the bringing of actions and the rules covered by articles 8 and 9. Hon. Members fail to understand the impact of existing legislation. Under article 8, the action must be commenced within three years of the date that the person realises that he has a cause for action. Under existing legislation, the limitation period is double that—six years, and frequently longer. Under article 9, the directive provides for a cutoff period of 10 years, whereas under existing English legislation it is possible for an action to be commenced years after the date at which the cause of action occurred. I support the directive. Hon. Members who criticise it fail to appreciate the impact of existing domestic legislation.
7.22 pm
Mr. Bob Cryer: I shall not detain the House for long. I have received a number of representations about the proposal, and I believe that I should air them. It is often difficult to reach a correct judgment about reasonable standards of protection for the consumer with which we can all agree completely and at the same time ensure that manufacturers are not placed in an unreasonable position which means that they might not dare go ahead with a process or product because they are frightened of their liability. That might seem unreasonable in relation to the directive, but some manufacturers believe that that is the position. I hope that the Minister will anwer my questions.
It is awkward to deal with legislation at second hand. We have to sift through several explanatory and badly duplicated documents. It would be better if we could deal with legislation independently, make our own judgments and impose our own standards. The present procedure
1182
is the result of the way in which the House deals with legislation arising from our membership of the Community.
I have received representations about importers. Article 3 of the directive provides for joint and several liability for a product. It gives the injured person the opportunity to claim against the person in the production chain who, because of his economic position, is most able to pay compensation for the damage.
In practice, that means that the person who is injured will reach for the United Kingdom importer rather than for the manufacturer in South Korea, Hong Kong or elsewhere. That could place the indigenous British manufacturer at a disadvantage. Importers can provide cheap goods with an indemnity against the manufacturer which is worthless, because the manufacturer can wind up his business, disappear and possibly form another corporate body in Hong Kong or elsewhere in order to escape liability. Such a manufacturer could not be reached through an action in Great Britain.
Importers should not be placed in that position. They should not be singled out and be disadvantaged in legal actions. I prefer prevention to cure. We are speaking of accidents occurring after goods have been purchased and used. It would be better if section 6 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 were applied. Under that Act, both importers and manufacturers of goods in Britain must provide a standard of health and safety, so far as is reasonably practicable. They are subject to criminal sanctions if they do not apply such standards.
Goods coming into Britain are not inspected. We operate lax standards for imports. If an accident occurs, we examine the goods involved. We do not check them at ports of entry. West Germany operates a different system. If a British manufacturer exhibits goods in West Germany and they are found to be defective, they are inspected on the stand, a defective label is placed upon them and they must be removed. That does not happen in the United Kingdom. Prevention should be aplied more effectively, instead of relying on a person being injured as a result of defective goods which have not been inspected.
Legal actions are always difficult. They are frequently expensive, and that puts

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people off. The Health and Safety Corn. mission could use the Act far more effectively, given facilities by the Government, so that the strain and pain of legal action was avoided.
I am also worried about the exclusion of nuclear products. I cannot understand the exclusion of damage arising from nuclear accidents. The explanatory document states:
"there are in force in all Member States similar special rules governing these risks based on liability criteria which are as strict as those of this directive. It has therefore been possible to exclude damage of this type from the scope of this directive."
I am not sure that that is true. The strong possibility is that, because nuclear power is unknown in many respects, the consequences cannot be quantified easily, and therefore it is excluded from the directive for that and no other reason.
Two firms in my constituency have made representations to me. One is Sun Street Printers, a busy jobbing printers which uses advanced techniques, including the reproduction of material which is handed to the firm as negatives or matrices. The firm is worried in case it is liable for material which is defective and which is handed to it. Sometimes two or three firms are involved in a chain. Two could be small firms and the third a large firm. It might not be clear which firm was responsible for the fault but the wealthiest firm would have to take responsibility according to article 3, and it would suffer the action though blameless.
Sun Street Printers seems to have a valid fear. I hope that the Minister will be able to explain the precise position to the satisfaction of my constituents. If a printing material fault is composed by firm A and it is printed by firm B in good faith, will firm B be open to an action as a result of any defect arising from that product?
Secondly, I have representations from a firm called Trico, which does vitreous enamelling in Keighley. It provides a service in part-finishing products. It, too, is> concerned lest it should be placed in a similar position. It has expressed its reservations to me. Will the Minister clarify the position and say whether, if this company carries out instructions which result in a defect in the product, it becomes liable even though it has
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carried out the instructions in good faith?
This whole business shows how we are placed in a difficulty when we deal with EEC legislation in the absence of the ordinary legislative processes to which we in this country are used. There is no Committee stage during which we can make representations, move amendments and consult interested parties. There is no Report stage during which we can table amendments. It is entirely unsatisfactory that the House should have imposed upon it legislation in this shape and form. This procedure gives rise to fears, justified or not, that we cannot easily eradicate because the source of the legislation is at one stage removed.
We know what we can do with legislation here at Westminster. We know that we can straighten it up and that, if we cannot, we can explain it clearly to people outside. That is one of the unfortunate aspects of this type of legislation.
7.31 pm
Mr. John Fraser: I hope that the result of this debate will be that a majority of the House will support, not only in appearance but in reality, the central thrust of the directive to introduce the principle of product liability. It is possible to give these directives support that is so lukewarm and so qualified that it does not amount to support at all and can sink them. I was particularly worried that the Minister had the support of the hon. Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence). If she is in favour of this proposal, she ought to worry about that sort of support and disavow that particular hon. Gentleman.
I favour the principle of compensating people who have been injured by defective products, whether the product be a drug, an aircraft, machinery or any other manufactured item. If I have to find a philosophical basis for that, it is
"love thy neighbour as thyself".
All this arose from the Thalidomide tragedy. When that happened, the overwhelming Christian and proper feeling of people in this country was that those children should be compensated because, if one had to choose between who was to bear the loss—the child or the manufacturer—the overwhelming view of public opinion and, I think, of this House, was that it should be those who

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manufactured the drug for a profit. That is the philosophical basis. If it had happened to my child, I would have wanted him to be compensated. It has happened to someone else's child and I want to see that child compensated. It is the principle of
"love thy neighbour as thyself".
There has been much reference to the Thalidomide tragedy. There was a similar case in my constituency. It illustrates the inadequacies of the law and the unfairness as between one type of transaction and another. A constituent of mine who was a blacksmith was prescribed a quinine-based drug manufactured by May and Baker, a company that was mentioned by the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle). The drug was prescribed for a skin disease. After taking it for some time, he lost his sight. It was a tragedy. He had no claim against the doctor who prescribed it because the doctor had available to him the state of the art of defence. He had no claim against the manufacturer because there was no negligence—that is admitted. He had no privity of contract.
If my constituent had purchased that drug across the counter of a chemist's shop—if he had not received it through the National Health Service—the chemist would have had absolute liability in respect of the effects of it under the Sale of Goods Act and, as a result of the subsequent legislation, he could not have contracted out of that liability. It would have been likely that he could have followed a chain of privity of contract back to the manufacturer of the drug.
Why should the right to obtain compensation differ according to the legal basis of the transaction or the course of conduct? That cannot be right. It was a revulsion against those distinctions that informed the Thalidomide case and presented us with the proposition of product liability in this country and throughout Europe. Other countries have not waited for the directive. Germany has introduced product liability in respect of drugs with certain qualifications directly as a result of the Thalidomide tragedy.
Mr. Crouch: I do not know when the tragedy involving the hon. Gentleman's constituent occurred, whether it was be
1186
fore or after the Thalidomide catastrophe. After the Thalidomide tragedy, the Government set up a committee on the safety of drugs, and it is obligatory for all drugs to be tested and approved by that committee. It is impossible for drugs to be offered through the National Health Service or through any other prescription without having undergone that process.
Mr. Fraser: The Pearson committee was set up as a result of the Thalidomide tragedy, and that committee stated that, even if there were official certification of a product, including a drug, nevertheless a claim should lie on the basis of product liability against the manufacturer.
That is my philosophical basis for supporting product liability. I think that it has the overwhelming support of informed public opinion, and the result of any surveys conducted on the matter come down in favour of product liability. It does not impose a great burden on industry. Ultimately, the burden is borne by consumers in increased prices to pay for increased insurance costs.
It is right to go ahead with this proposition because it is anomalous not to do so. I have already illustrated the distinction, as have many hon. Members, between absolute liability which exists under the Sale of Goods Act and the absence of liability where there is no privity of contract between the injured person and the manufacturer. That was illustrated well in relation to the example given by the hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Griffiths). If the manufacturer in the hon. Gentleman's constituency sells his flexible tanks, he has absolute liability towards the purchaser. However, the hon. Gentleman is arguing that if they are incorporated in another product and they prove to be defective, there should be no liability. That is an illogical distinction that ought to be removed, and its removal has the support of public opinion.
There are other inconsistencies. The Consumer Safety Act that was passed by this House and came after the Consumer Protection Act 1961 contains the principle of absolute and strict liability in respect of certain defective matters where they are in breach of consumer safety regulations which impose absolute requirements in respect of goods, where the state of the art defence does not apply,

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and where a claim is not based solely upon negligence.
Absolute liability exists in many areas, and the purpose of product liability is that that rule should become universal and should not become dependent on the nature and legal basis of the transaction. As hon. Gentlemen have said, it is inevitable. It is coming, but not initially as a result of legislation. It was introduced by the courts in the United States. It obtains in some EEC countries, and there is pressure from the Council of Europe—and now from the EEC Commission—to make it more widespread. I therefore think that we would be moving in the right direction by supporting this measure.
There have been a lot of tales about the United States. Many of them are apocryphal. Another argument that is put forward is that the cost of insurance in the United States has gone up astronomically. That has nothing to do with product liability. The same thing has happened in respect of negligence claims. Because of the way in which damages have been awarded and what appears to be the litigious nature of the American public—I am talking here only about doctors—it is said, probably with more truth than can be found in some of the tales about product liability, that a doctor who comes upon a road accident and is not on duty will not be prepared to attend to that accident because of the risk of being sued for negligence.
Premiums for negligence policies for doctors and lawyers in the United States have risen astronomically—but it has to do not with product liability but with the nature of the legal system. It is not helpful to quote the American example for damages on insurance costs. I prefer to rely upon the memorandum submitted by the Minister. It is a more reliable document. I prefer to have the word of the Minister on those matters than the words of people quoting apocryphal stories from the United States. The right hon. Lady is right to say that such insurance costs constitute a very small proportion of production costs. That is the beginning and the end of the matter.
We can dismiss the argument about cost that is advanced every time this sort of reform comes forward. It was advanced against reforms in the Supply of
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Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973 and against the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. It has been proved to be a myth. It should not delay us in the implementation of the matter before us. It is not as though the matter comes to us fresh. It has been examined by two Law Commissions and by the Pearson committee. All came down in favour of the principle of product liability.
I was disappointed that the Minister supported the state of the art defence. Once there is a defence of the state of the art, people are forced to rely upon the law of negligence. It is a contradiction to talk about liability for defective products and then to introduce the defence of the state of the art. The prospect of success depends on whether somebody might reasonably foresee, in the state of knowledge at the time, whether injury would result. I think that Pearson had the last word on the matter in paragraph 1259 of his report, which considered both sides of the argument. He stated:
"It is further argued that this responsibility, and the cost of insuring against the risks involved, might severely deter the development of new products, particularly those small developments which might lead cumulatively to a major advance … On the other hand, to exclude development risks from a regime of strict liability would be to leave a gap in the compensation cover, through which, for example, the victims of another thalidomide disaster might easily slip. We recommend that the producer should not be allowed a defence of development risk."
That is the same as the defence of the state of the art.
Mr. Lawrence: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the Pearson report was debated in the House on 17 November 1978, his right hon. and learned Friend the then Solicitor-General agreed that the state of the art defence should be part of any legislation on product liability?
Mr. Fraser: I am aware of that, but I do not take the same view. There is another matter that needs serious attention—not the development of risk, but the balance of risk. There will be circumstances, especially in relation to drugs, in which somebody may have a short lease of life which can be extended by a drug that aids his heart but, predictably, will have severe side effects. In those circumstances, there should be a defence of balance of risk provided that the person

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taking the drug knew that there would be a likelihood of a side effect but, nevertheless, wanted to take that risk to achieve some countervailing benefit. That is not the same as a development risk. It simply assums a certain risk of side effects.
One hon. Member said that there was a danger that there would be more safety first medicines. I give not an informed view on that, simply an instinctive view. There may be times when we could do with a little more safety first medicine, especially when I think of the number of prescriptions for Valium and barbiturates. Perhaps safety first medicine would not be such a bad thing.
Perhaps the Minister will make it clear when she replies whether she is in favour of extending the product liability regime to drugs. She did not say that they should be excluded, but I know that, when she attends a Cabinet meeting to deal with those matters, her reviews as Minister for Consumer Affairs will not be matched by the views of the Secretary of State for Industry, the Secretary of State for Social Services and others. One of the things about Governments is that sponsoring Departments do not always govern their industries—sometimes the industries have an effect in governing the sponsoring Departments. I am sure that that was so in relation to the exemption for natural products and the pressure applied by farmers via the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That is the way that life works. Perhaps the Minister will make it clear that she believes that drugs should be included.
In practical terms, it is almost impossible to have a limit for product liability. Claims in respect of a product have to be delayed in order to know how many people are encompassed by the defects. There is also the practical problem of whether the saloon car is one product and the estate version another product. One must not make the best the enemy of the good. As with the Warsaw convention and other conventions, there may be an argument in favour of having a maximum liability for the claim of any one person rather than for the product. Those matters are open to debate. I am not in favour of limits, but, if one has to compromise, it might be in that direction rather than in the direction of a total limit for a single product.
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Many hon. Members asked whether a printer was liable for mistakes in the text of a book. It is preposterous to suggest that the directive should cover the contents of books. It is not the book as a physical thing that has created the injuries, but the content of the book—the intellectual property—that has created the danger. Perhaps the Minister will make it clear that it is her view that it is preposterous to suggest that the directive covers those matters, and that, it might cover those matters, that that is simply an oversight and that we would not, under any circumstances, tolerate a directive that extended to the contents of books.
I turn to the defence of purpose. My right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) raised the question of Paraquat. Other hon. Members raised the question of components. The problem of components is dealt with if there is available to the component manufacturer the same defence as is available to the producer of the total object, namely, that the component was fit for the purpose for which it was supplied and designed. If one accepts that defence, the component manufacturer has very little to worry about. It is left to the judgment of those who assemble components whether the components are safe when used in certain circumstances that are only under the control of the manufacturer of the whole object. The defence of purpose is adequate in respect of Paraquat. It would avail those who manufacture glues which are sniffed by people in and around my constituency with tragic results. A manufacturer of glue cannot be held responsible for the consequences of somebody sniffing it and using it for a purpose for which it was not intended and of which consequences the recipient must have been aware.
Mr. Dalyell: The motor industry is extremely concerned about the import of substandard components from such places as Taiwan. That not only constitutes a danger but is damaging to the image of the safety of British products abroad.
Mr. Fraser: Those matters are not directly relevant to the directive. I hope that the Minister will take on board the point made by more than one hon. Member about the need to have a form of import control and a safety check at our

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ports. I know that it is extremely difficult—I have faced the problem myself—to do that. It would involve a great deal of extra public expenditure to have safety checks at our ports. But some of the evidence of defective products is now so appalling that it changes one's judgment on the matter. It is a question of protecting our manufacturers as well as our consumers. There is certainly an argument for taking a fresh look at that problem.
Mr. Crouch: The question of components has not been raised in the debate. However, drugs can be taken by a pharmacist in a hospital pharmacy and mixed into a medicine. Although the components of such drugs may be sound, mixed in a certain way they could be harmful. In that case, it is my contention that the hospital becomes the producer.
Mr. Fraser: I think that is right. It is a matter of common sense that a person who prescribes a particular mixture of drugs becomes the manufacturer; and negligence then arises in any case.
I was surprised that the right hon. Lady did not respond promptly to the intervention by one of her hon. Friends about whether the directive ought to apply to damage to property as well as to injury to persons.
Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: I thought that I had dealt with that.
Mr. Fraser: I am sorry. Perhaps I was not listening properly. The right hon. Lady would certainly have our support in saying that the directive ought not to apply to property, because there the risk ought to be insured by the owner of the property rather than be extended to the manufacturer of a product and in such a way, perhaps, defeating the chance of success.
There were some imagined circumstances in which there would be midnight settlements at Councils of Ministers where we would give in on the product liability directive and they would give in on certain other matters, perhaps a contribution to the CAP. I assure hon. Members that nothing of the sort is likely. I do not think that a Minister has ever met another Minister officially in the European Community to discuss this directive. That is a pity.
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One of the best things would be for Ministers responsible for consumer affairs in the Nine to come together, discuss the principle of this directive and reach political decisions on these matters rather than leaving it to civil servants to discuss, as they have done hitherto. That would be a healthy development. It is what I wanted to see as a Minister, and I hope that the right hon. Lady will press for the same kind of political discussion which, at the end of the day, will bring about an improvement in consumer rights as well as an improvement in consumer and general safety standards throughout the Community. I hope that the right hon. Lady will support vigorously the broad principle embodied in the directive and that she will take note of this debate. I am glad that we have had the opportunity to discuss these matters.
Let me make it quite clear that the Opposition would not support any use of section 2 of the European Communities Act to translate any directive into law. We wish to see primary legislation, with all the stages of discussion and debate that that involves.
7.52 pm
Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: With the leave of the House, I shall endeavour to reply as briefly as possible to what has been a long and important debate.
I think that it is generally agreed that the debate has been of a high standard. The House is notable for rising to such occasions as this, and on this occasion it has not disappointed. Nearly every hon. Member—in fact, I think every hon. Member—has drawn attention to one technical difficulty or another—in some cases to numerous technical difficulties—arising out of the present draft directive, and has thus supported the Government's case that, while the principle is accepted, the draft directive as it stands is not. I believe that that was agreed without exception.
I was particularly gratified that nearly all the problems to which I referred in my opening remarks were taken up and supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House and that there was practically universal support for the principle of the incorporation of the state of the art defence. I am pleased at the support that that received, although I am not surprised, because of the number of

1193
letters that I received from hon. Members, I received no fewer than 100 letters from Opposition Members about one aspect or another of the directive that concerned them.
The right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith) accused me of being tepid. If that was the case, he was absolutely freezing cold, and certainly ambivalent. First, he questioned the vires of the directive. He then expressed a preference for the Council of Europe's solution, and went on to complain about the Government's state of the art defence requirement. He was far more critical of the directive than I was and less than lukewarm—as I said, freezing cold.
He spoke, as did nearly every other right hon. and hon. Member, about the terrible Thalidomide tragedy, which must be in the minds of all hon. Members when a debate of this nature takes place. That is why we need to extend the present law—to make sure that people are not excluded in those circumstances. But, even with a state of the art defence, it is likely that at least half the Thalidomide victims would have been protected under the directive, because it was alleged by a number of people during the painful proceedings that took place—incidentally, not court proceedings—that the company had known, had been warned and was still selling the drug. Therefore, the state of the art defence would not have protected that company in a majority of those cases.
My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) spoke of the problems in the aerospace industry, which I appreciate is particularly sensitive. The right hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) made a courageous intervention, in which he supported the Government's stand on the state of the art defence. He was entirely realistic and honest in his approach. He was right in saying that there would be no negilgence if companies could not possibly have known, in the state of knowledge that pertained at the time the goods were going on the market, and that this would be an unfair and damaging provision, particularly to innovation, which is so important to British industry.
The right hon. Member raised the question of Paraquat. That would certainly not have come under the provisions of
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the draft directive, even as it stands. The use of a product that carried a warning in a way that caused injury, which was not the prescribed way in which to use it, would not be covered by the draft directive, even as it stands, and certainly not with the state of the art defence. It is right to draw attention to the role of parental responsibility in these matters. One cannot cover every aspect of these things by law, and parental responsibility must be brought in.
I turn to the amendment, moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Fare-ham (Mr. Lloyd) on behalf of himself and my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow). He complained about a distortion of United Kingdom law. Here again, I must take issue. If the draft directive were amended to the satisfaction of the Government along the lines that I laid out in my opening remarks, I do not see that that would be a distortion. It would be a complement to United Kingdom law, not a distortion.
I can give my hon. Friend the assurance, which other hon. Members have sought and to which, understandably, they have attached a great deal of importance, namely, that any new product liability regime arising out of an EEC directive will be the subject of primary legislation. I say that as far as we are able to promise into the future, because we are now looking considerably into the future with regard to this legislation.
Mr. Marlow rose——
Mrs. Oppenheim: Perhaps I can finish this point, because it may provide an answer to my hon. Friend. The Government's decision to accept the principle but not the directive as it stands does not mean that we are committed to a product liability directive. Indeed, the present text is clearly unacceptable because it does not achieve the proper balance between the interests of the various parties concerned. I think that that has been the opinion of the whole House during the debate.
In Brussels, therefore, we shall maintain our general reservation on the directive as a whole. We shall suggest that the draft be amended in a number of respects in order to achieve a proper balance

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between the conflicting interests. We shall also consider the suggestions of other member States who have anxieties of their own.
I hope that my hon. Friends will feel able to ask leave to withdraw their amendment. I can give them the assurance that it is manifestly in the interests of manufacturers and consumers in this country that we should have a common European initiative rather than a national initiative. If we start talking about a national initiative at this stage, our negotiating stance will be undermined seriously and we shall get a worse, not a better, directive at the end of the day.
Mr. Marlow: Will my right hon. Friend clarify two points? First, is she saying that if the directive is not amended sufficiently to fit in with the Government's purposes, the Government will on no account agree to it, whatever other pressures there are? Secondly, my right hon. Friend has graciously given an undertaking to the House that any measures on product liability that are brought forward in the future will be brought forward by primary legislation. Is it possible that a measure such as this, of such wide-ranging importance, could have been brought forward in any way other than by primary legislation?
Mrs. Oppenheim: With regard to my hon. Friend's first point, I reiterate the position of the Government. It is essential that the draft directive, as amended, is renegotiated on the lines that I laid out in my opening remarks. There are many areas of negotiation that are still open to us, and there are many difficulties in many areas. Unless an acceptable directive is finally negotiated, it will not be accepted by the Government. In answer to the second point raised by my hon. Friend, I give an undertaking that there will be primary legislation in this matter—to the extent that it is possible to give such an undertaking so far in advance of the likelihood of such legislation. There are other ways in which the legislation could be introduced, but I hope that that will not be the case.
The hon. Member for Lambeth, Central (Mr. Tilley) drew attention, as did a number of hon. Members, to the situation of printers and printing materials. In my
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opening remarks, I said that the situation that might pertain under the directive—we are not sure that it does—in relation to printers and bookbinding was absurd. The hon. Gentleman asked me to go further, and to say that it was intolerable. I do indeed go further and say that, if it is—as it appears to be—covered by the draft directive, it is intolerable. I hope that that reassurance will satisfy him.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) brought his great expertise to bear on the debate and on the discussion on the amendment. He performs a great service to the House in these debates, and we are fortunate to have him here. He made important points about the need for unanimity on the directive, and we are indebted to him for his lucid explanation of the constitutional position of the directive if it is unanimously approved. He also dealt with property, recalls and vires, an issue that was raised by many hon. Members. I reiterate that it would be unwise for us to pursue the matter, even if it were possible for us to challenge the vires. I am not convinced that it would be possible, but, even so, it would not mean that the substance of the directive would go away, and the implications of such a challenge would be unfortunate, to say the least.
It was clear when the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. fanner) intervened, that all my predictions about lawyers taking part in the debate were fulfilled. I accept the sincerity of his contribution, which I am sure was valuable. I should like to correct two of the points he made about Germany and France. Germany does not have strict liability. It has a state of the art defence, except for pharmaceuticals. France has strict liability, but, under the French civil code, cases must be brought within a very short time, which some people may look upon as an exclusive provision.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Sever) also mentioned the question of newspaper publishers being liable. Editors and publishers are already liable for errors in their newspapers if they have been negligent in any way.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Sir G. Page) brought his usual expertise to the debate. He properly

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referred to redrafting the directive on a number of important issues to which I have referred. I reiterate the assurance that this measure will be introduced by primary legislation.
Mr. Nicholas Baker: I understand the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend about the primary legislation, but is she saying that, in the event of any draft directive being agreed in a form that is satisfactory, she will then bring that draft directive back to the House for further consideration?
Mrs. Oppenheim: No, the draft directive cannot be brought back to the House for further consideration. If the form of the final directive is acceptable to the Government, it will be implemented by primary legislation, which will then have to be brought before the House. The House will then have an opportunity to discuss and amend the primary legislation.
My hon. Friends are pressing me hard on the matter, and it is right that they should do so because it is an important issue, affecting many interests.
My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Sir A. Costain) dwelt on the difficulties that would be faced by the building industry, and also drew attention to the question of small companies. That matter is causing the Government anxiety, both in the context of the draft directive and in many other contexts. We want to make sure that undue burdens are not placed on small businesses, and it was never intended that they should be.
My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Mills) drew attention to the question of components, sometimes known as counterfeit components or components that come from other countries outside the Community. He mentioned one of the great difficulties that we shall face in negotiating a satisfactory draft directive, because there is no means under the draft directive or under our law at present of redress in the case of imported, uninsured components and goods. There is no solution to the problem at present, but a solution must be found before the directive will prove acceptable, otherwise the gateways and loopholes will be immense, and consumers will not have the sort of coverage
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that we hope for as a result of the implementation of this directive.
The question of contributory negligence has been raised by a number of hon. Members. This is now included in the redrafted directive so that contributory negligence would either reduce or expunge liability.
Mr. Douglas Hogg: When my right hon. Friend considers that particular article, will she also consider suggesting to her colleagues that, where a person consents to run the risk of the injury, it is proper to reduce the compensation payable?
Mrs. Oppenhenn: I shall certainly beat that useful point m mind and take note of it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle) raised an important issue about costs, to which I shall return later.
The hon. Members for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), Keighley (Mr. Cryer) and Norwood (Mr. Fraser) raised the question of standards and obstacles at points of import. They all know that those matters have nothing to do with the draft directive, but my Department is concerned about the issue of standards and the way in which they are imposed by other countries. I assure hon. Members that the matter is under active consideration by my Department at present.
My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) made a very helpful and responsible contribution. He raised the issue of recall, which I had already dealt with in passing in my opening remarks. The question of recall and the effect it would have on liability would depend on the nature of recall and how widespread it was. If someone printed a tiny advertisement recalling goods which was likely to be seen by very few people, I do not think that would reduce liability, but if it was shown that a great deal of trouble had been taken to recall goods, the extent of liability would almost certainly be very reduced.
My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) raised questions about articles 4 and 7. With his permission, I should like to write to him about both matters. Time is short, and he raised some important issues.

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My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) stressed some important points of law, in particular the impact of the strengthened Sale of Goods Act, which perhaps has been underestimated by a number of hon. Members. I am pleased to say that I had a hand in strengthening the Sale of Goods Act—through the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977—and I shall not brook any accusations from the hon. Member for Norwood that I am tepid in my approach. He resisted my amendments, which he eventually accepted.
Mr. John Fraser: In case there should be any doubt about it, let me congratulate the right hon. Lady and say that it would not have been possible for the Bill to go through Parliament unless it had had her support. I am sure that the country is very grateful for that. I hope that she will be equally enthusiastic about product liability, on which she may be got at a little more by her fellow Ministers than she was by Opposition Front Bench spokesmen on that previous legislation.
Mrs. Oppenheim: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his gracious remarks. I have noted his concern about my being got at. I have also noted that he is far more defiant in opposition than in Government. He expressed his defiance of his right hon. and learned Friend the previous Solicitor-General [Interruption.] All right, his disagreement. I wish he had shown a little more of that defiance when he was a member of that Government but, of course I understand his position entirely.
The hon. Gentleman emphasised the importance of covering third parties who might be excluded by existing legislation from the right of redress, and that is the main purpose of the draft directive. There is, I accept and agree with him, a moral obligation to these people, but that moral obligation being accepted, as it is, we should not pretend that it will not involve costs that all consumers will have to bear. We should all accept that this is the price that will have to be paid to protect the minority of injured victims. This has always been recognised.
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We have to ensure at all costs that cost is not inequitable in relation to industry, to consumers or to small companies. In addition, it must not be inequitable in relation to the medical matters which the hon. Gentleman properly raised—the relationship between doctors and patients and the relationship between other ancillary medical professions and patients. There is also the doctor's judgment in various matters. If I may say so with respect to the hon. Gentleman, there is the doctor's judgment whether patiens should be told about side effects. That must be a matter for the doctor's judgment. Most important of all, the cost in terms of innovation should not be too great. The Government's responsibility is one of achieving the right balance, as I said earlier, between justice and fairness. We intend to negotiate for an eventual directive which achieves that balance. There must be justice for the innocent victim and the avoidance of undue and unfair burdens on industry at the same time as guarding against the imposition of excessive costs. It is the achievement of this balance that will guide our negotiations and influence the form of the final directive.
Mr. Peter Lloyd: My right hon. Friend has given some very welcome assurances, particularly her undertaking that any revised directive will come back to this House in the form of primary legislation. With these assurances in mind, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House notes Community Documents Nos. R/2237/76 and 9427/79 relating to the draft Directive on the approximation of laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States concerning liability for defective products; and urges the Government to ensure that during further consideration full account is taken of the arguments that people injured by defective products should be entitled to adequate and prompt compensation and that undue burdens should not be imposed on industry.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (DRIVING LICENCE)
8.15 pm
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Norman Fowler): I beg to move,
"That this House takes note of European Community Document R/3075/75 and the Department of Transport's Supplementary Explanatory Memoranda of 17 July 1980 and 28 October 1980 concerned with a proposed first Council Directive on the introduction of a European Community driving licence; and supports the Government's intention to agree to such a Directive."
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment on the Order Paper.
Mr. Fowler: The draft directive represents a small step, but an important one, towards making life simpler and safer for everyone who needs the freedom to work and drive in Europe. In the short term, the measure will have little impact on our lives, apart from cutting down on the red tape encountered by the ordinary motorist who changes his or her country of residence. In the longer term, I hope that it will lead to better safety standards throughout Europe, and I am sure that both sides of the House will welcome that.
I set out in the supplementary explanatory memorandum that I submitted to the Scrutiny Committee on 17 July the long and complicated history of this proposal. The House has therefore had the opportunity to look at the background and at the detailed provisions of the directive.
Very briefly, the intention is that from 1983, a resident moving from one Community State to another will be able to change his old licence for a licence of his new country. From 1986, national licences will be issued in a common form throughout the Community, although they will continue to be national licences. Special conditions are attached to the exchange of large passenger and heavy goods vehicle licences. I shall come to that point in a moment. In the longer term, members are pledged to work towards more detailed harmonisation of driving tests and licences which will be based upon improved medical standards and testing standards.
I mentioned the long and complicated history of the proposals, and the House
1202
might find it helpful if I set out some of the background and explained why so long has elapsed since we first debated the Commission's original proposal seven years ago.
Over those years, both the present Government and their predecessors—there has been very little between us in our approach to the negotiations—have argued that a true Community-wide system of driver licensing can be achieved only against a background of uniform and mutually agreed standards for health, driving examiners and driving tests. Regretfully, harmonised standards are not yet with us. That is the fact. Historically, within the Community, our individual national testing and driver licensing regimes have all developed over the years in their own different ways.
The United Kingdom's licensing regime has evolved differently from others in the Community. Our system, for example, when it comes to the ordinary car driving test, places more emphasis on a practical test of ability, while several European systems place emphasis on a theoretical test. I think that the system that we have developed in this country is the right one for us. It is useful in road safety terms, and I have noticed that representatives of a good number of States who have visited us, from both within and outside the Community, have spoken warmly of what we have been able to achieve over the years. The result is that we are not yet ready for the more ambitious Community-wide licence that the Commission set its eyes upon originally, nor, indeed, is any member State. That will perhaps come eventually, but only on the basis—and this is a point that we have consistently made in all the negotiations—of a general raising of testing and licensing standards, and certainly not simply by settling for the lowest common denominator. It is inevitable, therefore, that the revised draft directive, which has been so laboriously negotiated, and which the House is considering tonight, must be strictly limited in its effect and is a much more realistic and far less ambitious directive than the one that we debated seven years ago.
So what does the directive do? In essence, it will give a new resident moving from one Community State to another a period of 12 months in which he can change any valid car or motor cycle

1203
licence he holds for his new State's equivalent licence without the need to take a further test. This measure should be introduced in 1983. From 1986, it is proposed that licences within the EEC should be issued in a common format. That is set out on pages 13 and 16 of the directive.
The House will appreciate that, even now, new residents can drive cars and motor cycles for a year on the strength of their existing foreign licences, just as any international visitor can. But, after that period of 12 months, under our existing laws new residents have to take a test. I can understand why this often produces considerable resentment, particularly as our own nationals, when they settle abroad, freely receive other Community States' licences in exchange for their own. The Department receives many letters on this matter, both directly and from hon. Members, and we are well aware of how strongly their constituents feel.
I should advise the House that these problems affect not only people coming here from Europe. They apply also to people who have lived and driven in other countries—for example, Commonwealth countries. If this directive is approved, I shall be ready, in providing for its implementation, to consider extending similar exchange arrangements for cars to other countries, provided, of course, that their standards are satisfactory.
Under the directive, the intention also is that licences for driving lorries and buses will be exchanged, but subject in those cases to much more stringent conditions. This aspect of the proposals has been of primary concern in our negotiations in Brussels. The House will recall that my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Rodgers), was ready about two years ago to endorse the principles of a directive that would enable the exchange of licences for driving cars and motor cycles to take place, but that he could not at that time see a reasonable means of making similar arrangements for heavier vehicles.
Our partners have never been prepared to exclude HGVs and PSVs altogether. They were all ready to go ahead on the basis of arrangements which did not differentiate at all between cars and heavier
1204
vehicles. I have sought to find a way of avoiding the difficulties which my predecessor rightly emphasised in the case of HGVs and PSVs, whilst at the same time providing a limited means of exchanging licences for driving such vehicles in such a way that we did not prejudice our own standards. It seems to me that an approach of that kind should be explored thoroughly. Not to do so would be contrary to the spirit of the Community and, indeed, not helpful to the wider interests of road safety.
The result is that we do not intend to grant automatic exchange in the case of HGVs and PSVs where the licence to be exchanged was obtained through a test which was not the equivalent of our own either in standard or in the type of vehicle for which our own licence is sought.
We have recognised, however, that, because of the different ways in which testing and the categories of vehicle on which tests are carried out vary in different member States, there will be cases where HGV drivers have passed tests on smaller vehicles than they have in fact driven afterwards. If such people—I emphasise that it is a very small number—come here to live and wish to take jobs driving the larger vehicles on which they have gained experience, it seems to me that it would be considered unreasonable to refuse to exchange their licences for ours if we can establish that they have in fact had that experience.
That is the essence of the provisions in article 8 which provide for relevant experience and proof of it to be taken into account. We saw that as the way to enable progress to be made on a draft directive which all the other member States were and are keen to adopt. We believe that this is reasonable. I assure the House that we intend to be rigorous in considering any applications that we receive. We shall expect at least six months' safe driving experience within the previous 18 months, or 12 months, in the previous three years. In addition, I shall expect the chairmen of the traffic commissioners, who are the licensing authorities for this purpose, to see applicants in person before they agree to issue licences. Therefore, only a driver who has qualified for a licence, albeit on a different basis, and who in addition has had actual experience in driving some

1205
kind of HGV as he is intending to drive here will get a licence under these arrangements.
I add a further safeguard. If there is any doubt about the evidence of previous experience, the licensing authority here will be able to check with the licensing authority in Europe which issued the previous licence. Unless the traffic commissioners are satisfied that a licence should be exchanged, they will refuse, and the person concerned will have no option but to take our normal test.
I remind the House that the basis of the arrangements that we are seeking here is much the same as that which was applied in 1970 when our present regime of HGV driver licensing was introduced. I think that it would be wrong in principle and unnecessarily bureaucratic to refuse to accept the arrangements in the draft directive which will enable us to ensure that licences are granted only in circumstances where we can be satisfied that the applicants satisfy the standards which we seek to achieve in our own licensing arrangements.
Mr. Ivan Lawrence: In relation to ordinary driving licences, how will the Community driving licence be terminated? Will there be common offences which will lead to the taking away of the driving licence? What is the position with regard to totting up? If one commits a driving offence in another European country, will that offence find its way on to the Community driving licence?
Mr. Fowler: No. My hon. Friend has misunderstood the purpose of what we are debating this evening. It is important that the House should understand the situation. We were talking in the mid-1970s about the situation described by my hon. Friend. The House is being asked to talk about the more modest proposal which concerns the exchange of licences when residents from other European countries come to live here. There is no question of totting up or of an exchange of offences.
Mr. Selwyn Glummer: Would I be right in saying that this is not a Community driving licence, but a misstatement of what is happening? Even if we issue the licences in a common form, they will still not he Community driving licences. Therefore, there is
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ground for many of us to say not that we have gone too far, but that we have not gone far enough.
Mr. Fowler: I cannot satisfy both sides of this argument, but, if that is my hon. Friend's considered view on this subject, he is right in his complaint. I think that we have gone far enough and that we would be wise to move cautiously on this matter. But my hon. Friend rightly describes the arrangement to which we have come, and what he says is so, because, even when we come to 1986, we shall simply be covering a national driving licence. That is only until we can move to the next stage of the Community driving licence, which my hon. Friend clearly wants, but to which we are not prepared to go until we can be satisfied that the increased standards that we want apply throughout the Common Market countries.
Mr. Douglas Jay: Since the right hon. Gentleman says that it is important that the House should understand what is happening, perhaps he will say whether I am right in thinking that the holder of an ordinary passenger driving licence in this country who does not wish to become resident in any other part of the EEC, but may wish periodically to travel in other EEC countries, will remain in exactly the same position. as he is now if these proposals go through.
Mr. Fowler: Yes, that is so.
I shall now deal with the Opposition amendment. I am sympathetic to what I understand to be its intention, but I must advise the House that I believe that, as it stands, it is unnecessary. First, I have already dealt with the question of exchanging licences for driving lorries and buses. I hope that what I have said has reassured the House that there is no question of our issuing licences unless we are satisfied that our own standards will not be prejudiced. I believe that the method that we have worked out and negotiated with our partners to ensure that is reasonable and adequate.
Mr. Robert C. Brown: I missed the beginning of the Minister's speech, so I am grateful that he has given way. Will he elucidate exactly what he means by "provided that we are satisfied that they have had the

1207
relevant experience" on a heavier vehicle?
Mr. Fowler: I thought that I had spelt that out in some detail, but, in the main, what I said was that the licensing authority in this country would have to be satisfied that the driver concerned had that experience; that any driver who came to this country and began to live here as a resident and wanted to exchange his licence would have to make a personal appearance before the traffic commissioner, and, at that stage, if the traffic commissioner was not satisfied with the situation, he could check further with the licensing authority in the country from which the driver had come. If he was not satisfied, the driver would have to take our normal test in the normal way. We have provided for every reasonable check in that respect.
As to the second part of the amendment, article 5(2) of the directive specifically enables member States to refuse to recognise the validity of driving licences issued to drivers under the age of 18. That is the minimum age here for the granting of any HGV provisional licence, but in most cases it is 21. The position is similar for PSVs. It is certainly not my intention to reduce our own age limit of 18 for the benefit of younger people from other member States who come to live in this country. In fact, I am advised that, in general, similar age limits to ours apply elsewhere in the Community. I shall certainly take advantage of the provisions of article 5(2) to ensure that our own age limits apply.
As to the further work on standards in the Community envisaged by article 10, it is stated clearly in the article that the objective will be to improve road safety throughout the Community. It was, in fact, the United Kingdom that pressed for that objective to be stated clearly. It is my intention that we should play a full part in seeking to achieve it.
I undertake on behalf of the Government—as I think the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) would wish me to do—to ensure that any proposals that emerge are brought to Parliament for approval.
This directive is not a contentious or very dramatic matter. The record shows
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that the Labour Party would have been very willing two years ago to accept a directive worded in very similar terms had it been directed solely to cars and mortor cycles and excluded heavy vehicles. What we have done in negotiations with our partners is to work out a method that will enable us to preserve in the United Kingdom our well-tried heavy vehicle driver testing and licensing regime, which has substantially reduced road accidents involving heavy vehicles. At the same time, it will allow us to exchange licences to drive heavy vehicles granted by our partners when the holders are able to provide satisfactory proof of adequate driving experience of the vehicles for which they seek United Kingdom licences.
I should not have been prepared to commend to the House an arrangement that prejudiced our standards in any way. The outcome of the negotiations with our partners has been completely satisfactory from the United Kingdom's viewpoint. I hope that it is one that the House will be prepared to endorse. I therefore invite the House to accept that the amendment is unnecessary, and to support the motion.
8.35 pm
Mr. Albert Booth: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add
'provided that it does not commit the United Kingdom Parliament to enact legislation—

(1) enabling the issue of HGV and PSV licences to EEC member state nationals who have not passed driving tests of a standard equivalent to current United Kingdom tests;

(2) recognising the validity of any category C or D Community model licence issued by a member state to a driver under 18 years of age; and provided that no proposal from the Commission under Article 10 shall be given effect in the United Kingdom without the approval of Parliament.'.

I am sorry not to be accompanied tonight on the Opposition Front Bench, as I have been in so many other transport debates, by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). It is unfortunate for me that I shall lack his considerable experience as a Member of the European Assembly, and sad in an ironic way that the reason for his absence arises from a motor vehicle accident occasioned by his interest in a transport matter.

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The directive is the result of a failure to agree among Transport Ministers on a much more ambitious, comprehensive and wide-ranging directive which has been under consideration in the Community for many years. Out of the shambles of that disagreement has been resurrected a much more limited directive which has a sting in the hind quarters in that it will enable Ministers, on proposals of the Commission, to proceed about the business of the more ambitious directive.
I contend that the directive before us has immediate political and legal effects that impinge on the licensing of drivers both for private and commercial driving. As such, it has important implications for road safety in the United Kingdom and in the Community.
Article 10 has the long-term objective of making provision for further harmonisation. In interventions, there have been references to uniform offences, the totting up of offences and conditions under which ultimately a European driving licence might he withdrawn. Those issues have been discussed by Ministers, and they appeared in a previous form of the directive. Ministers may return to those issues, and may be directed to do so, under the provisions of Article 10.
Successive Transport Ministers have blocked progress on the wider directive. The Minister has said fairly that the major stumbling block for successive British Ministers has been our special provisions for heavy goods vehicle driver licensing. I fear that, if the House were to agree that the directive should proceed and that if we were to say to the Government that we endorsed their action in accepting the terms of the present directive, we would be obliged by its terms to exchange the EEC model category C licence for the British HGV licence for certain EEC nationals coming to reside in Britain. Under the terms of the directive, we should have to do that for at least the first 12 months of their residence in Britain. I shall comment later on the circumstances in which we would have to provide them with licences to operate for a much longer period.
I was encouraged when the Minister said that he was sympathetic to the amendment. I was surprised that he did not accept it, because he indicated his
1210
agreement to the three major provisions. At least, he did not indicate dissent from the part of the amendment that deals with drivers' ages. He intimated that at present, HGV licences were not supplied below the age stated in the amendment. Recently, an amendment was accepted on the age qualifications for PSV drivers. Presumably, the Minister has no objection to that qualification. He has no objection to the qualification about HGV licences. The Minister said that, if any measures were necessary as a result of article 10, the Government would introduce them.
One would have thought that the Minister and I were in complete agreement. One would have thought that he would say "Let us accept the amendment and have an early night", On the contrary, he says that he does not want to accept it. Under the provisions of article 6, a strict interpretation of the directive would oblige the Government to carry out medical tests on every person who wanted a driving licence. In fairness to those who drafted the directive, one could make a substantial case for such a proposition. However, one cannot defend a Minister who fails to point out the serious implications of this part of the directive. The directive says that licences will be issued to nationals of EEC countries, only if they have passed medical tests and tests on their theoretical knowledge. It states that the standards of those medical tests should not be substantially lower than those set out in annex 3. The directive affects applicants for United Kingdom driving licences, because it requires every member State to apply those requirements.
I have conceded that the Ministers who discussed the directive had to consider an important issue which was relevant to road safety. I accept that they had the best medical advice available. Perhaps it was better medical advice than I had at my disposal. Within the limited time available, I have contacted several doctors with parliamentary experience, and sought their opinion. One of those doctors was once a Minister, and I drew his attention to a written reply from the Minister which I received yesterday. As a result, I am convinced that, if an applicant for a driving licence were to suffer from any of the illnesses or disabilities. described in annex 3, it would be sufficient

1211
for him to produce evidence from a doctor to the effect that he was competent to drive.
To begin with, there is one case where it is quite clear that there is no such exemption, exception or means of bypassing the effect of the directive. There is a case in this annex where I find it impossible to conceive of a way of dividing a test which is not substantially less stringent and which would not have the effect of debarring EEC nationals from obtaining licences on medical grounds. The case I have in mind is on page 27, paragraph 14, of the original document before the House. That paragraph deals with endocrine diseases. It is also in paragraph 14 on page 29 of the latest document. This provision says:
"Group 1: driving licences shall not be granted or renewed for applicants or drivers suffering from diabetes who are affected by ocular, nervous or cardiovascular complications or uncompensated acidosis."
That is a straight bar to diabetes sufferers who apply for driving licences if they suffer any of those symptoms which, I am told, are not uncommon with diabetes. The directive goes on:
"Driving licences may be granted or renewed for a restricted period for applicants or drivers suffering from diabetes who are not affected by any of the complications mentioned …"
But those who are suffering from those complications will find, on a strict reading of this part of the directive, that no member State can issue them with driving licences.
In the preceding article, which deals with cardiovascular diseases, certain people who suffer from such diseases—and I am not clear from my reading whether this applies to those who suffer from diabetes as well—may be allowed to obtain licences if their doctor says that the disease does not make them unsafe to drive. But I can find nothing in the directive which would exempt those who show other symptoms related to diabetes.
I am not suggesting that this is a reason for refusing to accept the directive. There may be a very strong case—in fact I am prepared to accept that there is—for saying that people who suffer from certain diseases may, at certain times, be dangerous at the wheel of a car, and therefore should be debarred from
1212
obtaining licences. If that is the effect and if that is what the Government are putting before us tonight, it behoves the Minister to show the House the medical evidence that that is so and to tell us the extent to which, within the Community discussion, it was decided that it was appropriate that there should be a medical test not substantially less stringent than indicated by the annex. Then the House would know the extent to which the decision had been taken, presumably based on road safety consideration, to debar many people whom we represent and who are unfortunate enough to suffer from these diseases from obtaining United Kingdom driving licences. We accept that we would be doing exactly the same as other EEC countries.
If the Minister makes that clear and the evidence is reasonable, I will support that part of the directive, knowing full well that it may be unpopular with certain of my constituents who could be debarred from obtaining driving licences. However, we should not take such measures by back-door methods or without being conscious of what we are doing in regard to medical tests. That provision will have considerable and important effects on the issue of driving licences or reapplications for driving licences in this country.
When the House debated the wider directive in 1973, an amendment was put down rejecting the medical test provision. The then Minister of Transport accepted the amendment in terms that suggested that he considered that such a test would be expensive and difficult to administer. I believe that he also said that it would not be particularly rewarding in terms of road safety. Subsequent Ministers are entitled to take different views, but we must make a conscious decision.
Another point arising from the directive concerns the provision in article 3 for the category A driving licence. I refer to the EEC model driving licence that will cover motor cycles with an engine capacity of more than 50 cc or which do not have to limit their speed to 50 kilometres per hour, and all sidecars.
The position has changed since we last debated the matter. The Government have applied certain construction and use regulations, forbidding the construction

1213
or importation of combinations with sidecars on the right-hand side. That was done contrary to a decision in Committee upstairs on grounds that were not constitutionally justifiable. However, the law will preclude from importing, constructing or ultimately driving motorcycle combinations with sidecars on the right-hand side.
It is therefore amazing that the Minister suggests that we should endorse the proposal to accept a category of EEC licence that will allow a young Italian, German, Frenchman or Dutchman—I mean no national prejudice—to obtain a category A EEC model driving licence by driving a motorcycle combination with a sidecar on the right-hand side around the streets of a Continental city and then have the unqualified right in this country to drive a solo motorcycle of unlimited capacity under our rules of driving on the left-hand side. It is difficult to think of anything less conducive to road safety.
Mr. Gummer: Does not the same situation apply at present to someone who comes to this country for less than a year? If it is as dangerous as the right hon. Gentleman says, why did he not try to stop that practice when his Government were in power?
Mr. Booth: Someone can do that now, but, when the House decided to allow that, it did not imagine that there would be construction and use regulations making the vehicle illegal in this country. The hon. Member for Flint (Sir A. Meyer), who is in the Chamber, did the House the singular service of tabling a Prayer to oppose the change in the construction and use regulations.
I know that the Parliamentary Secretary takes a keen and conscientious interest in the difficult question of motor cycle testing and safety. I am glad that he is to reply, and I hope that he will tell us that it is not the Government's intention to proceed along this course.
The tragic truth is that large numbers of young men in their late teens or early twenties die in motor cycle accidents. The House should think long and carefully before approving a categorisation of European driving tests which does not face that fact. I concede to the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Gummer) that we
1214
have failed to face the fact that training on a motor cycle combination, whether with a right- or left-hand sidecar, is not necessarily a means of guaranteeing that someone is safe to go out on an unlimited capacity motor cycle. That is nonsense in motor cycle safety terms.
I urge the Minister to press his fellow Transport Minister to ensure that, if the EEC is to make a significant contribution to the harmonisation of driving licences and road safety, they should begin to consider a sensible categorisation of motor-cycle testing, if not training as well.
Presumably the Government have agreed with the categorisation. The Minister claimed that it had not been a stumbling block. That came on the heavy goods vehicles. However, the right hon. Gentleman did not see fit to explain to the House what a proper application—I use those words carefully—of the directive would do in respect of applications for driving licences from those who suffer any of the disabilities listed in the annex.
The Minister has declared his sympathy with the part of the amendment dealing with public service vehicle and HGV driving licences. I am conscious that we have given much consideration over a number of years to the contribution that good training and rigorous testing can make to the safety of operation of public service vehicles and heavy goods vehicles. We have also considered other aspects of the operation of those vehicles that contribute to safety—whether the vehicle should be subject to annual testing, and so on.
On the question of the age of applicants for licences, we have amended our legislation to comply with an EEC directive on the admissible age for the obtaining of a PSV licence in the Community. If the Minister contends that there is no wish on the part of the Government or any other member State that we should exchange a PSV or HGV licence on the Community model issued in another member State to a person under 18 for one of our licences, why can he not accept the amendment? That is exactly what the amendment provides. If anything, it is rather less ambitious than the assurance that the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to give the House. The assurance

1215
that he wants to give would go further and would suggest that there should be no lowering of the age limit in respect of HGV licences which means, in practice, that no one under the age of 21 would obtain a class I HGV licence in exchange for an EEC model category C licence. That part of the argument, I assume, is not in dispute across the Floor of the House and must be acceptable.
The Transport Act 1980, in so far as it lowered the driving licence age for PSV drivers, was passed in spite of considerable reservations represented to the Minister and to those on the Opposition side of the Standing Committee on the Bill by the transport industry. Operators and unions had reservations. If the Minister has no intention of going further down that track and using the provisions of this directive to allow people from other EEC countries to obtain PSV licences if under that age, I can see no reason why he should not accept the amendment. I do not think that anyone argued that PSV licences should not be issued to people under 18. I can see no reason why the amendment should not be accepted. A much more difficult issue in relation to HGV licences is bound up in this directive.
Mr. Fowler: One of the reasons why we have not accepted the amendment is that this matter is set out in the article. There does not seem much point in accepting the amendment if it is already contained in the article.
Mr. Booth: The point on age is not set out in the article. The article says that the Government may make restrictions as to age. If the Transport Ministers of the EEC had taken the view that EEC countries should not issue PSV driving licences to applicants under 18, there is no reason why they should not have written into the directive a statement that no EEC country should do this. That is not what the directive says. The directive says that countries may apply this reservation. It says that licences shall not be issued in this country and that this country shall not recognise the validity of a licence issued in any other country to enable a person under 18 to drive a public service vehicle.
I must ask the Minister to read the directive again. The directive definitely
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says that member Governments "may" do so.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The right hon. Gentleman should perhaps read again his own amendment, which suggests only that we should
"not commit the United Kingdom Parliament to enact legislation recognising the validity of any category C or D Community licence issued by a member state to a driver under 18 years of age".
That is what the article provides. It does not commit us. It provides that we may refuse to accept them. My right hon. Friend has made clear that he has no intention of accepting licences issued for HGV or public service vehicles to people under 18. We can accept that part of the amendment, except that it merely re-states the text of the article. It is not a substantial amendment.
Mr. Booth: The text of the directive provides for the possibility that member Governments may refuse to recognise the validity of licences. The amendment invites the House to say that we shall not legislate to recognise the validity of any such licences. This must make sense in terms of the Government's own memorandum which explores the legislative implications of the directive and deals with the extent to which we shall have to modify our legislation to comply with the directive.
I wish to turn to what I consider to be the more difficult issue. It is relatively easy to say that we shall not legislate to recognise the validity of licences issued to people under 18 to drive public service vehicles if they bring those licences to this country. That is simple. It is more difficult to reconcile the view, which is implicit in the directive, about categories of heavy goods vehicle licences and the practice which we have developed carefully over the years in Britain.
The directive says that we may not refuse to allow a person to drive a heavy goods vehicle if he has been issued with a licence in another EEC country. The directive states that, if a person with a category A EEC model licence comes to Britain to reside for 12 months, he may drive a heavy goods vehicle. If such a person applies within the 12 months to exchange that licence for a United Kingdom licence, we are obliged, in certain

1217
circumstances, to provide that person with a United Kingdom licence.
I was heartened to hear the Minister say that he intended to put all sorts of barriers in the way of people who were not properly qualified but who had EEC model driving licences without passing a test. However, that is not what the directive states. The directive says that such a person must show that he has "experience" of driving heavy goods vehicles. That will present a problem. Only when a driver wants to exercise his right to exchange his licence shall be able to check the validity of the licence. A refusal will not be possible on the ground that the person has not taken a test because, under the directive, all he has to do is show that he has "experience."
We have built up a strict regime for HGV licences. That is not so in other Community countries. Nothing like the regime that we have exists in any of the other EEC countries. I shall give the House an example from a report in The Economist. An EEC country last year issued 20,000 licences without submitting the applicants to a test because a postal strike held up the receipt of applications. They were not HGV licences, but that proves that the regimes are differerent in other EEC countries.
Mr. Fowler: The right hon. Gentleman was talking about HGV testing and of the system in Britain. There is nothing between us on that, but it is unfair to introduce an example which involves not HGV testing but ordinary driving tests, which are entirely different.
Mr. Booth: I accept that, and I shall stick with HGV tests. In southern Ireland many HGV licences are issued to people who have not taken HGV tests. For the purposes of the amendment, it does not help to argue about whether there is a strict test regime.
If the Ministers responsible for transport in the other EEC countries had agreed that the system of HGV licences in Britain made sense, they would have moved towards us. They would have allowed for permanent arrangements for the type of categorisation which we operate. However, the directive goes in the other direction.
In this country, all people who apply for HGV licences for the first time can
1218
apply only for class 3 licences. They must undergo training and operate with licences for a year before they can obtain class 2 licences. Similarly they must have a year's experience with that before they can obtain class 1 licences. That means in practice that no one under the age of 21 can operate under a class 1 licence.
Equally, our system means that we require someone to have passed a test for and driven a four-wheeled vehicle before he can start to train for multiple-axle vehicles—the six-wheelers, and so on—and to have passed a test on those vehicles and to have operated on them for a year before going on to the heavy articulated lorries.
Ours is a sophisticated, thorough method of testing people for their capacity and ability to drive heavy goods vehicles. In addition, our test requires specific health standards to be attained, although that is not covered by the amendments.
Al] of these classes are covered in the directive by a single category C licence. Article 8(2) provides that a state that does not apply category C licence provisions—and that includes the United Kingdom—"shall", not "may", issue an applicant with the lowest corresponding category of licence that they have within their system corresponding with category C in the Community. How would the Minister interpret that provision of article 8(2)? How can he say that we are not obliged to issue a Dutch, German or Italian driver coming here with an EEC category C licence with our HGV licence? Article 8(2) states that, irrespective of other considerations, if he applies we must give him the lowest appropriate category licence.
Is the Minister proposing that somehow we can avoid that application of the directive? That cannot have been overlooked. It has been the major bone of contention between EEC Transport Ministers, and the right hon. Gentleman must have an answer to it. There is no denying that our categories are much more selective. They do not depend solely on the weight of the vehicle as does EEC category C. They depend on such important considerations as whether the man has been tested on a rigid or an articulated vehicle.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I am genuinely trying to save the right hon. Gentleman

1219
time. I think that, again, he has misunderstood what I accept is a complicated document. We are retaining our national categories for heavy goods vehicle licences. We will not issue any foreign national who comes to live here with a licence in any category other than our own. The answer to that lies in article 8(2), which expressly provides for member States that do not apply categories C, D and E, which, as he rightly says, includes us. If he examines the requirements that my right hon. Friend stressed in his speech and that he insisted in the negotiations should be inserted, he will see that we can require an applicant to furnish proof of driving experience, and so on, and then we can issue a licence to entitle him to drive vehicles
"in the national category in respect of which he furnished proof of adequate experience".
So we will require stringent tests of experience, and we will issue a licence only in our United Kingdom national category in which, in our opinion, that man's experience would entitle him to drive.
Mr. Booth: I leave the House to judge who is misunderstanding or misinterpreting the article. It reads very clearly:
"Member States which, pursuant to Article 9, do not apply categories C, D and E"
—we are talking about category C—"may" and then sets out two choices. They may either exchange category C driving licences in accordance with paragraph 1 of the article or they can
"require the applicant to furnish proof of driving experience and in this case issue a licence entitling him to drive vehicles in the national category in respect of which he furnished proof".
He could produce a document signed by his employer giving proof that he has driven an articulated vehicle, a six-axle vehicle and a four-wheeled heavy vehicle. On the basis of that—irrespective of whether he has passed a test—presumably we must give him a class 1 HGV licence. Article 8(2) continues:
"In any event, such States shall issue to the applicant at least a licence to drive vehicles in the lowest of the national categories corresponding to category C".
What is the lowest category corresponding to category C? In any event, we must issue that to him.
Mr. Fowler: The right hon. Gentleman is not addressing himself to the question of proof. That is the point that he must take on board. We have said that if a person produces a document that says that he is entitled to drive a certain vehicle he must appear first, and personally, in front of a traffic commissioner, who is able to question him. If the traffic commissioner is not satisfied, he is able to make inquiries from the licensing authorities in the country of the person's origin. The right hon. Gentleman is making the most enormous mountain out of a molehill. We have made every sort of check to ensure that the person has experience. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that tests throughout Europe are not the same, of course we agree with that. That is why we cannot accept his amendment, and why we are putting forward other safeguards.
Mr. Booth: No doubt eight other Ministers of Transport thought that the right hon. Gentleman was making a mountain out of a molehill, and that all his predecessors did the same when they tried to hold on to our right to operate the HGV categories. If somebody furnishes evidence that he has driven that sort of vehicle, it will be no good checking with the licensing authorities of the country of origin because they are not obliged to operate the checks and safeguards that are operated by British licensing authorities. All that they have to say is "We gave him a category C EEC licence in a way that is perfectly proper in cur law". If that happens we shall face a real difficulty.
Mr. Fowler: With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, article 8 is included in the directive, and we are able to make these arrangements because of the insistence of the United Kingdom. As I have tried to make clear, the other EEC countries have none of those reservations and wanted the same transfer of licences that we had for cars and motor cycles. It is because of our insistence, and the agreement of the other EEC countries to our insistence, that we have these safeguards.
Mr. Booth: In that case, I see no reason why the Minister should not accept the amendment. He was not proposing to go anything like the distance that the

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amendment suggests. I think that he must agree that he is now proposing to exercise much more stringent checks and safeguards than those required by the amendment.
Mr. Fowler: I tried to explain to the right hon. Gentleman why we do not intend to accept his amendment. If he looks at his amendment, he will see that it talks about enabling the issue of licences
"to EEC member state nationals who have not passed driving tests of a standard equivalent to the current United Kingdom tests".
I accept that the tests, if that is to be the only criterion that the right hon. Gentleman is using, are different.
I could give the right hon. Gentleman a whole list of the different tests that exist in Europe. It is impossible to meet this point within the confines of the amendment. We have said test plus experience, and it is up to the right hon. Gentleman to address himself to that point.
Mr. Booth: I want to address myself to both these questions, but I must remain with the terms of the directive. As the Minister now concedes, if it were a question of having equivalent tests only, that would be a bar to his acceptance of the amendment. That is fair enough. We need not argue about experience. He is saying that he rejects the amendment because he cannot or will not apply the directive in a way which would debar an EEC national with a category C model licence from having a British HGV licence if he had not passed an equivalent test. We might as well leave the argument at that point, because at least there is a clear understanding.
Our categories of licence are more selective. They have been developed to meet the high standards which this House thought it was necessary to maintain. The development of these standards by the United Kingdom is a matter of which we should be proud, and one which we should not retract in the face of this directive.
Under the directive, a host State cannot require a further driving test to be taken, even if it has reason to believe that the licensed driver has not been submitted to a proper qualifying test. We are now agreed that proof of previous
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driving experience is the only condition of the exchange—either of the HGV or PSV licence. At least, it may well be that way. The interested trade unions which I have consulted are extremely concerned about the effects of article 8. The Transport and General Workers Union and the United Road Transport Union fear that the introduction of the directive will cause considerable confusion in the regulation of HGV and PSV driving standards. They also feel that the system of licensing exchange is open to abuse. They also happen to share the view that I expressed in relation to qualifying age. They want, as the Minister has now agreed that he wants, the age requirement in respect of the HGV licence not to be reduced.
I turn finally to the provisions of article 10. This article requires the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, to carry out as soon as possible more detailed harmonisation of driving licences in the Community. The problems that have been experienced for at least seven years between successive British Ministers of Transport and their Community colleagues in agreeing grounds for this directive give me, and I believe the House, no confidence that the Council will introduce a scheme of harmonisation that will not compromise road safety standards in this country. Any harmonisation which maintains or raises standards of road safety will have the support of this House. The Minister need have no fears on that score. If he brings back proposals under article 10 which spread higher standards to other countries, I am sure that he will receive the support of the House. But while thousands of people who are represented in this House are killed and maimed on our roads, we should retain control of every aspect of legislation which has a bearing on drivers' safety.
Mr. Fowler: I do not want to detain the right hon. Gentleman, but it is important and crucial for him to understand that there is absolutely no disagreement between the parties on the final point that he has mentioned. There is no question of harmonisation unless standards are improved. In other words, there is no question of going down to the lowest common denominator. I hope that he accepts that, because I do not believe that we should play party politics with road safety.
Mr. Booth: I am certainly not playing party politics with road safety. As I have made clear, if the Minister wants to commend the stricter standards of medical tests implicit in my reading of annex 3 and the corrected article, I am prepared to support him, provided that it is clearly done in this House, whether or not it is popular in the country.
Mr. Hugh Dykes: It the right hon. Gentleman is so concerned about road safety, why did he oppose the introduction of the tachograph, which is also a road safety device?
Mr. Booth: I believed that, in the context of this country, our drivers' hours and our standards of vehicle testing, coupled with proper training and qualifications for heavy goods vehicle drivers, were an effective means—as effective, if not more effective than those in most countries—of safety. But the tachograph argument is now behind us. We have accepted the introduction of tachographs in vehicles, category by category.
The Minister assures me—I welcome the assurance—that article 10 is intended to bring about improvements in road safety throughout the Community. I accept that, but, although the article states that on a proposal from the Commission we shall proceed with harmonisation as swiftly as possible in spite of all the difficulties, I am not convinced that it is right for this House to forgo its rights to control any aspect of this legislation. Therefore, if the Minister does not accept the amendment, I shall urge all hon. Members to vote in favour of it.
9.26 pm
Mr. Selwyn Gummer: We have listened to a long speech by the spokesman for the Opposition, but many hon. Members still wonder whether his argument could not be turned on its head. He suggested that, if the Miinster agreed with him so much, he could accept the amendment. But if the Minister has agreed with the amendment so much, perhaps the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) could ask leave to withdraw it, and we could all come to a happy compromise on the matter. The Minister made clear that the substance of the amendment would be carried out by the Government. We should not have discussed for almost 50 minutes an argu-
1224
ment so thin as to be almost disappearing.
As a result, the right hon. Gentleman has changed my mind on the matter. I came to the House tonight to berate my right hon. Friend in the most polite way for bringing forward so small a change. I had hoped that, after seven years, we could have moved closer towards a proper Community licence. I understand his difficulties more clearly now. If, even to make this tiny step, he has to listen to 50 minutes of opposition that is practically impossible to understand after a series of interventions, I can see how he must have reached Brussels with yet another sigh, realising that the argument was not in Brussels, with his fellow Transport Ministers, but here, in putting this tiny molehill to the House tonight.
The House should take note of some of the arguments that were used. On the subject of heavy goods vehicles the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness said that there was no country in the Community with anything like the regime on HGV vehicles that we have in this country. When he was challenged by Conservative Members to name a single one, he produced an answer about Italy, on motor car licences. Having been pushed on that, he produced a second example from Ireland. He did not mention that the situation to which he referred was a temporary two-month situation, and that it was a derogation from the usual Irish procedure, which is to have an HGV system similar in toughness to ours, and in certain instances tougher.
The right hon. Gentleman did the House an injustice in suggesting that, because this was the British system, all the others must, ipso facto, be worse. We must accept that there are a variety of systems in the European Community. We have so far been unable to produce a system that reaches the highest common denominator, and therefore we have to go for a compromise. I do not much like the compromise, because one of the most sensible things in the Community would be for us to have a common driving licence that we could use and to have common standards that we could accept. It has taken seven years not to get that.
I accept the right hon. Gentleman's concern for safety. I have in my constituency, at Mendlesham, an excellent

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road training establishment that is concerned to raise the standards of driving of heavy goods vehicles in this country. But people trained in other countries—under what the right hon. Gentleman has suggested are wholly inadequate conditions, with wholly inadequate tests and totally unsuitable driving licences—are perfectly at liberty to drive their foreign heavy goods vehicles in this country. Not only are they foreign; but they have left-hand drive, so that it is even more dangerous than if they were driving right-hand drive vehicles in this country.
If the right hon. Gentleman took his argument to its logical conclusion, it would keep out all foreign drivers of heavy goods vehicles, otherwise his whole safety case must fall to the ground, because those people are driving these vehicles now on our roads, under the laws that he accepted when he was in office and that his Government did not suggest to the House would cause danger.
The case is very clear. There are more foreign drivers tonight on the roads of Britain, driving heavy goods vehicles, without any of this paraphernalia, than there would be in a month of Sundays, after the introduction of this arrangement, asking for indigenous British heavy goods vehicle licences.
If the argument is about safety, the right hon. Gentleman must come clean with the House and say that a future Labour Government would stop all foreign drivers coming into this country unless they had passed a British heavy goods vehicle test. If he does not believe that, he must withdraw what he says on safety, because his argument does not hold water in any sense at all.
The right hon. Gentleman is in a very poor position to put forward the case on safety. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) made the point very clearly. It was not in the safety brief of the Transport and General Workers Union to support the tachograph. That is the real reason why the right hon. Gentleman opposed the tachograph. Do not let us imagine that the generalities and wide-ranging comments that he made are the real truth. The real truth is that the Transport and General Workers Union was against the tachograph, so the right hon. Gentleman was
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against it. The Transport and General Workers Union has worries about this issue, so the right hon. Gentleman has worries about it. We know where the brief came from. This House had to listen for 50 minutes when we could have got it directly from Transport House. We could have asked Transport House for the brief and read it and gone home much earlier this evening.
I believe that we ought to have tried to go a bit further forward with regard to the motor car, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will address himself to this matter. Would it not be possible now to take a second step, as soon as possible after this one, and to look again at a possible compromise, so that we can reach towards what is really a Community driving licence, with a common standard? Perhaps he could work hard to convince his fellow Transport Ministers—if he cannot convince the right hon. Gentleman—to come to an agreement on the motor car driving licence rather quicker than agreement has been reached on the general plans that we have here tonight. It would be very helpful to the House if my hon. and learned Friend the Parliamentary Secretary would comment on that at the end of the debate.
We were talking for a long period about what is a very small problem concerning the motor cycle. The number of people wishing to drive the kind of motor cycle combination that has been declared illegal by my right hon. Friend cannot be very large. I cannot believe that vast numbers of people wish to buy or to construct in this country a motor cycle combination that itself is more difficult to drive than the one that is normally produced. The whole case seems to have been very much overplayed, although I felt that, because it was so small a case, it would perhaps have been better not to bring in the rule. I accepted and supported the view put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) on that very issue.
I wonder whether it is sensible to say that, because we stop a small number of British nationals from buying an inconvenient form of motor cycle combination, we should refuse to allow those who have trained on a form of motor cycle combination that is more convenient when driving on the right to swap their motor cycle

1227
licences for British licences. That does not seem to be a logical argument. It is even less logical than some of the others that we have had. Therefore, we should accept that the exchange is not a danger to safety and is reasonable. After all, the rider of a motor cycle combination can come to this country and ride it, unwieldy as it is on the wrong side, for a whole year. To suggest that it is not dangerous for the first year but that the moment the driver gets a British licence he becomes a danger to the public is an unconvincing argument.
Finally, I turn to the question of proof. I think that the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness did my right hon. Friend less than justice on the question of proof. My right hon. Friend made it clear that proof did not mean the provision of any tatty old piece of paper signed by any old person and shoved in front of any old traffic commissioner. It is in our hands to decide what is proof and, having decided what is proof, to say whether that bit of paper is proof and, if we are not happy, to go back until we get the proof. But the onus of proof is on the person who wants the licence. If he does not provide it, he will not get the licence. He will then have to take one of these tests that are so much more marvellous than other countries' tests and, if he passes it, get a British licence.
In common with our debate on harmonising the start of Summer Time, this is another example of the Opposition opposing anything emerging from the European Community. Whether it is sensible or obvious, whether it is in favour of motherhood or anything else, the Opposition will oppose it. The only reason for the debate tonight is that it started in Brussels. If it had started in Tonypandy, the Opposition would have been in favour of it.
It is time that we grew up and argued the case, instead of constantly using any example to beat the Brussels Commissioner or to attack our membership of the Community. We ought to learn that we live in a world in which other people have contributions to make. We do not have everything that is best on this side of the Channel. We should learn from others and not make outrageously xenophobic and reactionary statements, such
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as "No other country in the European Community has a regime anything like as goods as ours". That is untrue and unworthy of a representative and internationalist party.
9.38 pm
Mr. Ted Leadbitter: One of the difficulties in a debate of this kind is to keep in mind the fact that there is no difference of opinion in the House about the need to maintain high standards of licensing and to protect drivers and vehicles. It is easy, against a background of many years of discussion and understandable argument in the Common Market, momentarily to forget that we have this common yardstick by which we achieve safety on our roads.
I listened to the Minister with great attention. It would be wrong to minimise the assurances that he has given, but he knows that assurances given in the House—this has happened under both Labour and Conservative Administrations—although at the time honourable and acceptable, often do not materialise. That is the great worry. We must all concede that Ministers, in both Labour and Conservative Governments, have, over several years, struggled in the Common Market to find genuine answers, so there is no quarrel over that, either. However, because of the endemic problems of diverse views and practices, it has not been easy to reach a solution.
Perhaps we should welcome this draft directive, because the outcome falls short of the major objectives of many hon. Members—common practices, a common licence and common standards—which, for reasons that I have outlined briefly, cannot be achieved. Therefore, to a large measure, this directive commends itself to the House.
That is why I was rather surprised when the Minister, having given his assurances, did not accept the amendment, as he might have done. He will note that it follows Opposition agreement to the motion. We have not questioned the motion. Having put it in that way, the Minister might have appreciated that the amendment does not do very much more than confirm what he has in mind.
However, at least it is on record that the House has accepted that we ought not to be persuaded, by the absence of words in the draft directive, that, as a

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consequence of this debate, matters can develop in Brussels in such a way as to go beyond the intentions of this House. Matters should not be pursued without the member States knowing that we intend not to introduce certain legislation.
It seems reasonable, for instance, that we should not be expected to enact legislation for people under the age of 18 carrying C and D Community licences. I think that there is agreement that, in the course of time, the yardstick of the age of 18 may be altered with experience, but at present it is generally conceded that it is not acceptable for persons under 18 to hold C and D licences. Again, there is no quarrel over that. I should have thought that it was the will of the House not to be placed in the situation of having to legislate on the issue of HGV and PSV licences according to standards which are lower than those current here and which will possibly feature in further discussions in Brussels. There is no problem there.
It is worth reminding the House of article 10. There is a far more serious problem, because it is against the background of the long argument and the persistence of the other member States over the years that we have to read article 10. Both Labour and Conservative Ministers have had great difficulties in protecting the United Kingdom corner. That experience tells us that we, should not allow the House merely to take note of article 10, but should make it clear that if our past worries are substantiated by a similar worry in the future—I put it no higher than that—the House should not agree to take note of the draft directive without underlining, as we have in the amendment, the fact that we shall not accept the implementation of article 10 without the matter coming before the House of Commons.
The Government would have been wise to look to the House for its help and aid. I shall quote article 10 purely for the record and not to bore hon. Members who have read it for themselves. It states:
"The Council, acting on a proposal from the Commission, shall carry out as soon as possible a more detailed harmonisation of the standards for driving tests and licensing with a view to inter alia, subsequent improvements in road safety throughout the Community."
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That objective is highly commendable. There is no quarrel with it. The seeking of harmonisation over the past few years has led to the major quarrel over protecting United Kingdom standards. If we merely take note of the directive and pass it back to Brussels, we shall be saying, in effect, to Brussels "Carry on as soon as possible. Pursue the argument that you have been having in the past." There would be sound common sense in the Minister accepting the amendment, because it does not fall out of line with his present thinking.
Irrespective of what Ministers believe and assure us upon, and of what we believe and seek assurances on, we have to fall back on the wording of the articles. Does it not occur to the House that the result of the long and tedious years of argument is a watered-down directive that is perhaps the wedge that is being used to gain a degree of consensus so that we may be encouraged to pursue article 10 with a greater possibility of getting legislation? There has been a failure to arrive at legislation since 1973.
Article 8 raises some simple, yet interesting problems. We are concerned that there is to be automatic recognition for one year of all driving licences issued in any of the member States, whatever the vehicles may be. The article requires no proof of validity. Only when a licence is exchanged is a written assurance of current validity required. That is not in accordance with our general practices. To wait one year without any element of proof, and only at the point of exchange to ask for a written assurance, is a practice that must be questioned. The Minister has given us an indication of safeguards, but those do not appear in the directive. That is an issue to which the Minister should give his attention.
Proof of previous driving experience is required only at the point of exchange. According to the article, proof will consist merely of signed statements of former employers. That is rather odd. If the Minister were to accept the amendment, these worries would be put behind us.
The article deals with the exchange of a full HGV or PSV licence. It is ambiguous. It is not clear whether the lowest—in terms of vehicle weight—form of HGV or PSV licence has to be issued,

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or whether the lowest category licence—namely, a motor cycle or motor car licence, has to be issued. In the former case, the effect of the refusal will be minimised.
Both sides of the House face the same problem. I wish to approach this issue in a conciliatory manner. The Minister has indicated his support for the amendment, and there is merit in responding to the will of the House, because future discussions can then be pursued more safely. I should have thought that Brussels could say that it recognised that the House of Commons had a positive watching brief for future discussion.
I welcome the directive. We merely seek the reasonable assurance that what the Minister says in the House will apply if the directive is implemented.
9.50 pm
Mr. James Hill: On one or two occasions, hon. Members have tried to trivialise this important debate. For many years, I have opposed the draft directive. Indeed, I opposed it in Brussels. My hon. Friend and Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) will remember that I was chairman of the Transport Committee in Brussels, and that on one unfortunate occasion I had to table 55 amendments against the first horrific draft directive on the introduction of a European driving licence.
The licence covered almost every contingency, qualification and penalty, and the most complex medical test that could have been devised by any medical lobby. My Committee colleagues fought against the "psycho-technical" examination. All the Europeans were up in arms. It almost seemed that a document had been kept in a pigeon hole for some years. It was presented by an Italian commissioner, Scarascia-Mugnozza, whose name I shall never forget. Ultimately, the committee had to tell him that it would not support the document in the European Assembly. As the commissioner had no support. he was unable to present it. That occurred in 1973–74.
I give the Commission full marks for tenacity. The directive has appeared again in a modified form. It has been contested hotly by the Ministers, who have tried to cut away its coarse edges. The document before us now is moderate in tone.
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A European driving licence would be an asset to the Community and the United Kingdom. However, it must be right and it must be accepted by the British people. It must also allay the fears of the trade union movement. The livelihood of many of its members depend on HGV and PSV licences.
I fear that the directive has been drafted too roughly, and that may be to ensure that it meets the views of the nine Ministers, the Economic and Social Committee or the committee of the European Parliament. Like all European legislation, it has to bend around many corners before it arrives. Tonight it has arrived, and in certain places there are fears about the drafting. I noted particularly that the specification that the Department brought out on 17 July, which said:
"The United Kingdom's essential interests are (a) to preserve its existing testing and licensing regime until standards throughout the Community have been sufficiently harmonised."
Those last few words are the crunch.
The Department is trying to say that it is not only the testing and licensing standards but the safety standards as well. Safety standards must include the medical provisions. The worst aspect of the car or lorry being driven is the health of the person behind the wheel. Therefore, obviously in a short time the licence will embody the medical requirements of the blue document as presented this evening.
Article 10 is drawn so roughly that one can read whatever one likes into it. But I am sure that my right hon. Friend is fully aware that, although he has protected the existing United Kingdom driving licence up to the age of 70, one of the biggest debates is not the medical examination which it has been suggested should be every two years, but the medical requirements each year for those who are over 70. That suggestion was thrown out simply because of the burden that it would have put on the medical profession in this country. It could not be implemented. Consequently, we have now reached the stage where the majority of us will be protected to the age of 70. It is fairly obvious to me that the medical requirements in this directive are similar to the ones which were felt to be too onerous for the requirement of the time. At that time, the licence was to be phased out almost immediately. I think we were thinking in terms of a two-year phasing.

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Here we are talking about a five-year phasing. Luckily, those of us who are not too near 70 will not need to worry about any phasing yet, but the crunch will come for everyone with a driving licence at the age of 70. I wonder whether these rather strong medical provisions will be enforced. Perhaps my right hon. Friend could reassure me on this point.
On the minimum requirements for driving tests, in annex 2 there is a series of figures, and each one starts with the word "knowledge". For example
"2. Knowledge and understanding of regulations
2.1 Knowledge and understanding of traffic rules
2.2 Basic knowledge and understanding of technical regulations
2.3 Knowledge and understanding of rules relating to the driver, in so far as they concern road safety
2.4 Knowledge and understanding of the rules on what a driver should do in the event of of an accident."
The next one is typical European—and as a pro-European I can say this—
"3. Knowledge and understanding of other subjects."
Whoever put that in had obviously come to a crunch time—it was getting near either lunch or dinner, and he or she thought "Let us put that in because it will satisfy the Germans, the French or the British."
The legislation is roughly drawn and much to be feared in places. My right hon. Friend cannot accept it on its face value. He should watch carefully the minimum standards of physical and mental fitness. The Commission will want to bring back a horrendous medical qualification. It may not be for five or 10 years, but there are very many open doors. Did the Commission wait until there were new faces around the Council of Ministers' table or in the Economic and Social Committee, or until the European Parliament had directions elections so that it could deal with new people, who would perhaps accept its ideas of what should be a medical test for everyone in the Community?
It is a dangerous draft directive unless watched carefully. I am sure that I can rely on my right hon. and hon. Friends to make sure that they are not talked into anything over a sumptuous lunch in Brussels. I hope, too, that they will
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put in the file for their successors copious notes of how far they have managed to persuade their fellow Ministers in their way of thinking.
10.1 pm
Mr. Tam Dalyell: The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill) raises a material point about medical tests. The draft directive opens a potential Pandora's box. For example, are we to say that a driver who is seriously overweight will be considered medically unfit because of risk of a coronary? That is not as far fetched as it may seem. If a principle for medical tests is introduced, there will be clinical criteria. Many people who are perfectly good drivers may not pass strict clinical criteria.
My locus for speaking, apart from a general European interest, is that I represent a driving instruction school, Motec, at Livingston. I have been asked to raise succinctly two separate issues. The first arises from paragraph 6(b) in the supplementary explanatory memorandum, which states that our interests are
"to commit the Community to working in the longer term towards improved harmonised test and licensing standards in the interests of road safety".
Are we certain that harmonisation is absolutely necessary? If it is, is it desirable?
Much of the testing in Scotland is done for winter conditions in these very heavy vehicles that have completely new braking capacities. Although that is good in one way, it has problems in another. The litmus test of a competent driver is how he can cope with icy roads in foggy winter conditions, which may be an important part of a driver's training in Scotland, but it is not necessary for drivers who do most of their work in Sicily or other parts of the Community that have little ice or snow, or where, in any case, most of the driving is on motorways.
Should we go hell for leather for harmonisation? I have a number of doubts. Those of us who have been members of the European Assembly in various capacities know that the Commission has a propensity to harmonise for the sake of harmonisation. I hope that this is not one of those occasions.

1235
The second issue arises directly from Motec and is a matter on which I have had correspondence with various Ministers. It is the practice in training to send heavy vehicles to the conservation area and narrow streets of South Queensferry, in my constituency. It is all very well for the Minister to take the matter lightly, and I shall not take up the time of the House in arguing the case, but it seems absurd that there is an official diktat that training should take place in areas where the presence of heavy lorries is detrimental to buildings.
Drivers must have training grounds, but heavy vehicles should not be sent to small communities who plead with the authorities not to send them and whose community councils—the council at South Queensferry is led by the indomitable Miss Thallon—ask that their conservation areas should not have the added problem of being heavy vehicle testing areas. They should be heeded and not told rather bluntly that they must take their ration.
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Surely there are many places that are not conservation areas, where such training could take place and where it would not do the amount of harm to buildings that is done in South Queensferry and other areas. If we are to have a cascade of directives, I shall be looking for one—I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, with whom this matter has been raised, will note this point—that provides that driving schools and heavy vehicle testing centres do not go to small communities that do not want them and where there is damage to buildings.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: As I shall not have the opportunity to deal with the hon. Gentleman's second point in my reply, I undertake that either the Scottish Office or my Department will find out who is responsible for routing heavy goods vehicles to South Queensferry, and the responsible Minister will write to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Dalyell: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
10.7 pm
Mr. Hugh Dykes: The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) used the phrase "hell for leather" when he was asking the question to which my hon. and learned Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has replied. I hope that the hon. Gentleman would not dream of using that phrase as a description of the progress made on the draft directive over the years.
It was depressing to witness yet again the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) and the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) demonstrating appalling mediocrity and ignorance of the history of the directive. I am sorry to have to use such strong language, but it is justified. They also showed their ignorance of the standards, conditions, testing, rules and regulations relating to heavy goods vehicles in other countries. When the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness was challenged during his excessively lengthy speech, when he was repeating himself endlessly—and I share the suspicions of my hon. Friends that the right hon. Gentleman seemed to be quoting, sometimes verbatim, from a brief that must have been written by the Transport and General Workers Union——
Mr. Booth: The hon. Gentleman is wrong.
Mr. Dykes: In that case I withdraw my remarks, but hon. Members will have drawn that sort of conclusion from the language and atmosphere of the right hon. Gentleman's arguments. When challenged to say which countries had lower' standards than Britain—the assumption in the right hon. Gentleman's remarks being that they all had lower standards—he was not able to give any examples of variations, but gave a misleading example relating to one of the smaller member States.
The truth is that in the rules and regulations in member States, particularly in relation to the right hon. Gentleman's main preoccupation, which was heavy commercial vehicles, there are enormous variations between countries. Some have higher standards. To give just one ex-
1238
ample, I think particularly of the rear lighting standards in Holland, which are much higher than they are in this country.
Labour Members, mostly because they have internal problems in the Labour Party—and the motion of the Blackpool conference reinforced that problem—continue chauvinistically, nationalistically and narrow-mindedly to say that everything that we do is better than what is done in other member States. The original directive six or seven years ago that gave rise to the argumentation in member States but particularly in this country was drawn too tightly. The other member States agreed with us that a new directive should be drawn much more widely. It was to be a permissive directive. This modest document, laying down general conditions for harmonisation is a first step to a Community driving licence. Most of the details are contained in the annex and are not part of the main legislation. That point was missed by the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness. It should have been mentioned if the right hon. Gentleman was to give a fair picture to the House. Again and again, the House has seen the depressing spectacle of the Opposition doing down the real nuts and bolts of our membership of the Community.
I agree with those hon. Members who have expressed disappointment that after years of debate and after member States have increasingly given way to United Kingdom suggestions—almost all the suggestions in the directive and the annex are British suggestions—the House should be asked to incorporate an absurd amendment that is totally unnecessary. The directive takes care of all the anxieties and objections in the argument of the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness. Those objections, I suppose, are the encapsulation of the restrictive practices of the union that he may favour. It is union policy so to hem about foreign lorry drivers—the fact that they do not have to observe those restrictive practices now in the first year of entry into this country shows the illogicality of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions—and so to restrict the freedom of movement that is essential in order to create a proper Common Market.

1239
Meanwhile the target is 1986. We have years to wait before we get a real European directive creating a genuine European driving licence which, I hope, will also cover commercial vehicles. I hope that the process might be speeded up in the second half of the decade. It is possible for member States to work together on the proposals without indulging in the absurd idea that there is a wicked foreign conspiracy for 4 ft tall, eight-year-old dwarfs, driving lorries, to come here with forged documents, which they will flash in front of innocent British officials who cannot properly verify that they are experienced drivers. That nonsense is an insult to the intelligence of people who are trying to create a genuine European Community.
Mr. Teddy Taylor rose——
Mr. Dykes: If my hon. Friend had heard the debate, he would have been as appalled as I to hear the anti-Common Market arguments of the Opposition. It would be wiser if I did not give way. If my hon. Friend had been present earlier, it would have been different. My hon. Friend has, however, only just appeared.
I hope that the amendment is rejected decisively. I assume that the directive will require additional legislation by way of regulations and even possibly primary legislation in respect of some clauses. I hope that we shall consider the idea of modernisation of our own United Kingdom driving test. There are many useful lessons to be learnt not only from European countries but from the United States on elements of a test that must reflect the increasing congestion, complexity and pressure of traffic, particularly the increase in the number of heavy vehicles.
I turn to a sacred part of a future modern test which should be made into regulations or even legislation. I refer to the use of flashing lights when changing lanes. In future, much more discipline must be used in respect of that motoring activity. Traffic congestion is causing people in all the member States to be less self-disciplined when using flashing lights to indicate a lane change.
The original proposal for a national register of drivers and the exchange of
1240
information arising there from has been left out of the latest draft document. I hope that that will be examined again and that the Government will get the new powers if the new directive is approved in Brussels eventually for a proper exchange of data between States.
It is unnecessary to single out article 10 (2) for an amendment. It is too easy, and unwise, to tack on an amendment to every "take note" motion. The Opposition do that because it is a way of being "OK with one's party", and "switched on", in terms of knowing the legislation. Such amendments prove that Members do not know the legislation because one clause does not necessarily deserve more weight than the others.
Article 12 (2) exhorts member States to help each other in the prosecution of the directive. I hope that that will result in an active exchange of information as the number of intra-Community journeys increase. There is no need to accept the amendment. The case for neither element of the amendment has been proved. Everything has been taken care of in the Minister's comments. I am sure that they will be reiterated adequately by the Parliamentary Secretary.
10.17 pm
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) was right when he explained the reason for the long speeches on, and the bitter opposition to, the directive by the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) and the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter). The long debate is the result of the subject carrying a misleading title on the Order Paper. Technically it is correct to say that the debate is about Community driving licences, because that is contained in the title of the directive, but the directive bears no relation to the type of Community driving licence which was once contemplaced, which was the subject of debate and in which my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Hill) took such a prominent part some years ago.
My hon. Friends the Members for Eye (Mr. Gummer), for Harrow, East and for Test said that in principle they were in favour of a Community driving licence. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Test that we should agree to such a

1241
licence only if it is on a common sense basis and on terms acceptable to the United Kingdom. The original directive to which my hon. Friend put up such opposition was abandoned long ago. We might move towards it again eventually, but it will be on the basis that the United Kingdom accepts no reduction in safety standards and no derogation of its own licensing powers.
The directive under discussion makes arrangements for the exchange of driving licences in fairly limited circumstances between nationals of the member States. It makes arrangements whereby, from 1986 onwards, new licences will be in a common EEC format—although they will differ in content according to the wishes of individual Governments. Even when they go out in the common format, licences that we issue to our nationals and the licences that we issue to the nationals of other EEC countries will be British licences subject to British licensing laws. Nothing in the directive requires us to change that system. Nothing in the directive requires us to modify our medical testing system. There is nothing in the directive to make us alter the categorisation of vehicles in our licensing system, and in all respects we are retaining the British licensing system with all its safeguards.
What, then, is all the fuss about? It has been difficult to discover from the debate, because not all the speeches, including those from the Opposition, have been altogether clear. We must put this matter in context, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Eye. He explained, quite correctly, how limited is the number of drivers about whom we are worrying in this three-hour debate on the Floor of the House.
In considering the effect of the directive it is necessary to examine the present arrangements and the changes that are being made. The present arrangements for EEC visitors to this country are very generous. Any visitor can use his driving licence for the category of vehicles for which he is licensed. As we know, any tourist coming here in his car uses his existing licence to drive—a German, for example, will use his German driving licence to drive his German car in this country. The roads are full of Germans, Frenchmen, Italians and so on driving lorries on their German, French and
1242
Italian heavy goods vehicle licences. There are thousands of EEC nationals driving foreign vehicles using foreign licences on our roads. No one is suggesting that we should suddenly ban them all, because our drivers enjoy the same reciprocal rights when they go abroad.
This directive is concerned only with that small proportion of the populations of each country who change their State of residence. It will apply when a British national goes to reside in another EEC country and wishes to drive there, or when an EEC national wishes to reside in this country and drive here. Even then, the present position is that when they come here they may continue to drive on their foreign licences for 12 months. They are on our roads now. German, French and Italian licence holders are already driving in this country. The only change under this directive is that if they stay here as residents for more than 12 months it will be possible for us to exchange their national licences for our national British licences without requiring them to take a British test.
The circumstances in which we shall do that for those who come here as residents are hedged about with qualifications as set out in the directive, most of which have been insisted upon by the British Government, and which have been set out in detail by my right hon. Friend to explain how they safeguard our road safety standards.
Since the directive has only that limited effect, we are dealing with only a few hundred drivers each year, and with only a tiny number of lorry drivers who so concern the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness. How many German lorry drivers will flood here after this directive is passed to search for work in the British road haulage industry? I hope that there will be some, and that eventually there will be more as our economy revives, but we are talking about a couple of dozen people a year at the most.
When we consulted on the document there were some reservations and comments on the part of some bodies, but only two bodies in the transport world were opposed to it—the Transport and General Workers Union and the United Road Transport Union. As we now know, having heard their case, they did

1243
not even understand why. They know only that, as it appeared on the Order Paper, it concerned a Community driving licence and that the documents emanated from Brussels. That is a red rag to a bull at the moment to a large section of the Labour Party and the trade union movement, even when sensible proposals come forward, and some sensible proposals must come from Brussels.
In negotiating this directive we have made a large number of changes to the original proposals—not just the proposals that were so condemned by everyone here in 1973 and 1975, but even to the proposals that others were prepared to agree to, and we did so in order to protect British interests.
When the Conservative Government took office Britain was outnumbered by 8 to 1 in the EEC. We were the one country holding out with reservations about the directive. My right hon. Friend continued to negotiate from that position in the Council of Ministers. He held out against ratifying the directive until he had won important concessions that safeguarded British interests. It should be the opinion of the House that those concessions meet the points that the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness continues to make. The directive is principally the product of the pressure applied by my right hon. Friend to ensure that Europe complies with Britain and that any changes in standards are likely to be improvements in a direction of which Britain would approve.
In the negotiations my right hon. Friend laid particular stress on heavy goods vehicle licensing and the medical requirements that we apply to licence holders in Britain——
Mr. Booth: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman at least make it clear, and concede to the House, that the derogation won by his right hon. Friend about the categories of HGV licences was temporary, and that article 9 makes it clear that we can do it only with the permission of the Commission, pending the introduction of the final system? Will he address himself to that point? Does he agree that, although we concede that his right hon. Friend won a temporary right to derogate, it is only temporary and is
1244
pending the introduction of the final system under article 9?
Mr. Clarke: I shall come to the final system that arises out of article 10 in due course. That is the harmonisation that is feared. Article 9 paves the way for article 10, which lays down harmonisation as the final system. We hope to harmonise on a basis of British standards and our particular requirements, and thereby raise road safety standards in the remainder of Europe. Meanwhile, the derogations that have been won are expressly designed to serve the British purpose.
On the question of HGV licences, my right hon. Friend spelt out with considerable care the proof 8f experience that we shall require from lorry drivers who come to Britain seeking a licence. I shall not repeat the details, but I commend them to the House for study. We have gone out of our way to require positive proof from an applicant that he has experience in the category of vehicle, going to the extent that the traffic commissioner will interview the applicant and make approaches to the competent authority in the country that issued the foreign licence if there are doubts about the proof produced. The pattern on which that is based is the pattern followed in Britain when so-called grandfather rights were given to existing lorry drivers when we introduced our HGV licences in 1970. It has actually stiffened the requirements. With our HGV licences we did not expect the commissioners to interview all applicants. We have tightened the requirements, and they are expressly written into the directive at British insistence.
The categories of lorry for which people will be given HGV licences will be our categories. Derogation from the European categories is expressly provided for by article 6 of the directive—again included at our insistence. There is no way in which anyone will be able to obtain an HGV licence in Britain for a size and type of vehicle for which he does not have considerable driving experience.
We cannot, however, rule out all foreign HGV drivers. We know that there are some mavericks on the road. Our Department organises occasional drives at Dover against overloaded foreign vehicles

1245
to try to ensure that our rules are complied with, but there are such people as the highly skilled and competent German lorry drivers presently driving very large German lorries, probably through the constituency of the right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness. Where they can provide proof of that experience, we cannot refuse them a licence. It is ridiculous to suggest that we should do so.
I turn to the medical requirements. I well remember the rather absurd provisions of the original directive, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Test referred. I remember psychological tests, but he used a different phrase. Some curious requirements were dreamt up by the Commission in the early 1970s. They have all gone. They have been swept out of these regulations, and there is nothing in the directive that will commit us to reintroducing anything of that sort.
We were most anxious, given the stage at which matters have arrived, that we should not be required to issue licences to people taking up residence in this country when they have obtained their national driving licences on lower medical standards than ours. For road safety reasons our medical standards tend to be strict. I know that the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) has a particular case of a monocular lorry driver, which I am taking up. We have been trying to make sure that we do not have to vary our medical requirements, either for our drivers or for those who come to this country.
The annex, which sets out the medical requirements, will not cut across our medical requirements if we comply with this directive. It is drafted in terms that will enable us to continue with the medical practices that we have at present. That is made clear by article 6(1)(a) on the question of the type of test and the medical standard. It merely requires that the minimum standards
"may not be substantially less stringent than those set out in annexes II and III".
Our test and our medical standards are not "substantially less stringent" than those, and we are satisfied that our present arrangements will enable us to comply with the directive.
I have already dealt with the form of the licence, which will change in 1986.
1246
The licence will be pink. I am not sure why pink has been chosen, but no doubt it is a result of some wicked alliance between Healey voters in the Labour Party and the "wet" side of the Tory Party. Apart from the fact that the colour will change, the format will change so that policemen and everyone else can recognise what the driving licence looks like when it is produced. There will be no change in the substance of the licence so far as the British law or British drivers are concerned.
Mr. Dalyell: Does the Minister put himself on the "wet" side of the Tory Party?
Mr. Clarke: That goes quite outside the scope of the directive and this debate.
I stick strictly to the terms of order, and I turn to article 10, which has aroused considerable interest because it contemplates the possibility of eventually harmonising driving standards and deals with the longer-term aims of the directive of moving towards closer standards of driver testing and licensing throughout Europe.
In this country we have as much interest as has any other member State in the EEC in raising standards of road safety and bringing standards closer, where those standards will result in European standards being brought closer to ours. In negotiations on the directive Britain insisted that there should be an undertaking by all member States to continue in the direction of improving road safety standards throughout Europe. That is plainly in our interest. Many more British people now drive abroad, surrounded by European drivers, and many more European drivers are driving on our roads, regardless of this directive. We should welcome anything that has the effect of raising standards throughout Europe.
The right hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness mentioned a recent surprising abandonment of standards by one member State, when Ireland issued 25,000 licences without testing, following the postal strike. If this directive had been in force, it would not have been able to do that. It would have been in plain breach of the directive. The reason why the Irish were able to respond to an emergency of the kind that they faced

1247
was that they were not at that time bound by the directive and the consequent legislation. One can almost claim that one of the most positive results that arose from the previous Government's holding out against any directive of this sort for the last two or three years of their period of office was that it enabled the Irish to allow 25,000 untested Irishmen on to the roads after the postal strike.
One of the effects of the directive, and one of the effects of increased harmonisation of standards, will be that all member countries, the existing Nine, and Greece when it joins, if it wishes to gain the benefits of this directive, will be obliged to move towards harmonising their standards in an upward direction. That, I should have thought, would be to the advantage of Britain as much as to that of the other member States.
I hope that I have dealt with most of the specific points that have been raised in the debate——
Mr. Hill: Will my hon. and learned Friend clarify what happens to the medical provisions after the age of 70?
Mr. Clarke: Nothing whatever. We shall continue with our present medical arrangements. We have no intention of introducing annual medical tests for people over 70, and there is nothing in the directive that would require us to do so. I hope that that battle, which my
hon. Friend was fighting in the European Parliament a few years ago, has now been successfully won and that no enthusiastic Eurocrat will try to revive it in the course of any future harmonisation proposals.
The standards that we have of medical inspection, heavy goods vehicle driving and of licensing and testing generally have been maintained in the directive by our negotiations. The directive is likely to bear more heavily on those countries that do not at the moment have standdards that can comply with the necessary articles in the directive. We have insisted throughout that road safety is paramount and that we could do nothing that would threaten road safety in this country.
The changes that are made are tiny. We have protected road safety standards. In a way, one wishes that we could have put forward something more substantial that would have led to more significant changes in road safety throughout Europe. They are tiny, they are unobjectionable, and I suggest, with respect, that the amendment is fairly trivial when we look at the effect in practice of the directive. I do not think that it will have the slightest harmful effect on any road user in this country.
Question put, That the amendment be made:
The House divided: Ayes 92, Noes 138.

Division No. 487]

AYES

[10.37 pm

Adams, Allen

Fitt, Gerard

McKelvey, William

Anderson, Donald

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

Forrester, John

Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n)

Booth, Rt Hon Albert

Foster, Derek

Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Golding, John

Maxton, John

Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

Gourley, Harry

Meacher, Michael

Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

Graham, Ted

Milian, Rt Hon Bruce

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Hardy, Peter

Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride)

Carmichael, Neil

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Mitchell, R. C. (Solon, Itchen)

Clark, Dr David (South Shields)

Haynes, Frank

Molyneaux, James

Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)

Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw)

Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill)

Home Robertson, John

Morton, George

Cryer, Bob

Hooley, Frank

Newens, Stanley

Cunningham, George (Islington S)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)

O'Neill, Martin

Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven)

John, Brynmor

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Dalyell, Tam

Johnson, James (Hull West)

Palmer, Arthur

Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)

Parry, Robert

Dewar, Donald

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)

Dixon, Donald

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Dormand, Jack

Leadbitter, Ted

Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)

Douglas, Dick

Leighton, Ronald

Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)

Dunlop, John

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Ross, Wm. (Londonderry)

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Litherland, Robert

Rowlands, Ted

Eadle, Alex

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Silkin, Rt Hon S.C. (Dulwich)

Eastham, Ken

McCartney, Hugh

Skinner, Dennis

English, Michael

McGuire, Michael (Ince)

Soley, Clive

Ewing, Harry

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Spearing, Nigel

Spriggs, Leslie

White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)

Wrigglesworth, Ian

Stoddart, David

Whitlock, William

Torney, Tom

Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Wainwright, Edwin (Desrne Valley)

Winnick, David

Mr. James Two and

Welsh, Michael

Woolmer, Kenneth

Mr. Terry Davis.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Gower, Sir Raymond

Myles, David

Alison, Michael

Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

Neale, Gerrard

Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

Greenway, Harry

Needham, Richard

Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)

Grieve, Percy

Newton, Tony

Beith, A. J.

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouh N)

Onslow, Cranley

Bendall, Vivian

Grist, Ian

Oppenhelm, Rt Hon Mrs Sally

Berry, Hon Anthony

Grylls, Michael

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Best, Keith

Gummer, John Selwyn

Page, Rt Hon Sir Graham (Crosby)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire)

Biggs-Davison, John

Hawkins, Paul

Pattie, Geoffrey

Blackburn, John

Hawksley, Warren

Percival, Sir Ian

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Hayhoe, Barney

Pink, R. Bonner

Bright, Graham

Heddle, John

Pollock, Alexander

Brinton, Tim

Hill, James

Porter, Barry

Brittan, Leon

Holland, Philip (Carlton)

Raison, Timothy

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe)

Hooson, Tom

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Rost, Peter

Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick

Hurd, Hon Douglas

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Buck, Antony

Kershaw, Anthony

Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

Butcher, John

Kilfedder, James A.

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Cadbury, Jocelyn

King, Rt Hon Tom

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Carlisle, John (Luton West)

Knox, Cavid

Sims, Roger

Carlisle Kenneth (Lincoln)

Lang, Ian

Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

Chapman, Sydney

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Le Marchant, Spencer

Stainton, Keith

Clegg, Sir Walter

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Stanbrook, Ivor

Colvin, Michael

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Steel, Rt Hon David

Crouch, David

Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)

Stradling Thomas, J.

Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Tebbit, Norman

Dorrell, Stephen

Loveridge, John

Thompson, Donald

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Lyell, Nicholas

Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

Dover, Denshore

MacKay, John (Argyll)

Thornton, Malcolm

Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

McNair-Wilson, Michael, (Newbury)

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Durant, Tony

McQuarrie, Albert

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Dykes, Hugh

Major, John

Waddington, David

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)

Marten, Neil (Banbury)

Wakeham, John

Eggar, Tim

Mather, Carol

Waldegrave, Hon William

Elliott, Sir William

Maude, Rt Hon Angus

Warren, Kenneth

Fairgrieve, Russell

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Watson, John

Faith, Mrs Sheila

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)

Fenner, Mrs Peggy

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Wheeler, John

Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N)

Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)

Wickenden, Keith

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Mills, Iain (Meriden)

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Freud, Clement

Moats, Roger

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Gardiner, George (Reigate)

Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)

Mr. John Cope and

Garet-Jones, Tristan

Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)

Mr. Peter Brooke.

Gow, Ian

Question accordingly negatived.
Main Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of European Community Document R/3075/75 and the Department of Transport's Supplementary Explanatory Memoranda of 17 July 1980 and 28 October 1980 concerned with a proposed first Council Directive on the introduction of a European Community driving licence; and supports the Government's intention to agree to such a Directive.

TENANTS' RIGHTS, ETC. (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL [LORDS]
Ordered,
That, in respect of the Tenants' Rights, Etc. (Scotland) Amendment Bill [Lords], Notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second time.—[Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.]

ROYAL SIGNALS ESTABLISHMENT, MALVERN (MALE DRIVERS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Mather.]
10.48 pm
Mr. Michael Spicer: I am grateful for the opportunity to bring before the House the facts behind what would appear to be a serious, not to say unusual and ironic, defect in the application of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. The Act, for better or worse, states simply that, save for exceptional circumstances, a man and a woman who do the same job should be paid the same salary or wage.
The problem that I bring before the House is equally straight-forward. In my constituency there exists the Royal Signals and Radar Establishment, which employs male and female drivers—I hasten to say not "drives" as the House magazine states with Freudian charm. These chauffeurs and chauffeuses have the job of driving all the military and scientific staff at the RSRE, and no distinction is made between the job of the women and the job of the men, except, perhaps—this is a contentious matter—that there is a tendency for the men to get the very late jobs or the very long-distance jobs.
For doing precisely the same work—that is all that they are claiming—the men are paid, taking into account overtime, on average, £5 less a week than the women. The story that lies behind that astonishing and ironic situation goes back to a time before July 1975, when male drivers were paid on the basis of what was then called male band 4 and the women were paid on what was then called female band 6.
The net result of the complicated arrangements—I shall not trouble the House by going into why the arrangements existed—was that females were paid 80p a week less than the men on the basic rate, but—the "but" is crucial in view of the judgment given earlier this year by Lord Denning—the women were employed on very different terms and conditions from their male counterparts. For instance, whereas the men started work at
1252
8 o'clock in the morning, the women began at 8.30. Whereas the women were paid for the whole of their lunch breaks, the men drivers were given only half of their pay for their lunch breaks if they were on long journeys. The overtime implications of these arrangements meant that before July 1975 women were about £4·50 a week better off than the men. This is crucial in view of the later judgment given by Lord Denning, to which shall return.
With the implementation in early 1976 of the terms of the 1975 Act, the distinction between male and female bands was abolished and the so-called, charmingly termed, unisex band was introduced. This gave the women drivers an additional 80p on their basic rate. However, it removed from them all the other perks. For six months they were employed on precisely the same terms as their male counterparts.
Needless to say, the women were not particularly happy with that arrangement. They did not like being employed on the same terms as the men. They managed to persuade their union, the Transport and General Workers Union, to fight for rather different terms. At the end of 1976 the management, in my view rather weakly, gave way. The effect of the new terms was to place the women on a new unisex band 6, as opposed to the men who are on unisex band 4, which meant that they received £1·25 more in basic pay than the men for doing precisely the same word. Overtime made the differential considerably higher.
That is the position that still exists, except that the differential has now risen to £2·30 per week, with the men being paid £68·90 basic and the women £71·20 for doing precisely the same job. With overtime the differential rises to an average of £5 a week. As wage rates rise, so the gap between the men and the women will grow. One of the results is that the women chauffeuses are now paid on the same band as the class 3 heavy goods drivers, who do much of the long distance and very rough work at RSRE in testing, for example, scientific equipment. Clearly, that cannot be right.
The story of the frustrated attempts made by the men to correct such an obvious absurdity has disturbed me as much as has the injustice of the situation. In 1976 they failed to get any assistance

1253
from their union. As a result, the male drivers applied to the Equal Opportunities Commission, which was set up under the 1975 Act. In 1977 the men received the wholehearted support of the commission, which agreed to pay all the costs of any application that they made to the industrial tribunal.
After much delay, caused by the Government of the day—which, needless to say, was not a Conservative Government—their case was heard on 25th September 1978. The industrial tribunal decided that the anomaly should be corrected, and that decision was unanimous. The Ministry was given six weeks in which to make an appeal. It did so on the last possible day. The employment appeals tribunal—the next step—heard its case on 29 March 1979, and an immediate decision was given in favour of the men.
On 23 June 1980 the Ministry's appeal against the judgment of the appeals tribunal went before Lord Denning in the High Court. Lord Denning's judgment against the men was, in the view of many, extraordinary. Having appeared to lay great stress on the reasonableness of the men's case and the unreasonableness of the union's pressure on behalf of the women, Lord Denning found against the men. He said that he had done so on the ground that the discrimination that had existed against the women before 1975 constituted a material reason, other than that of sex, why there should be continued discrimination against the men. I hope that that does not sound too Irish.
Two points struck me. First, in practice the discrimination before 1975 was against the men rather than the women. Secondly, the material reasons that Lord Denning gave were based on sex. The men had seven days from the date of Lord Denning's judgment to appeal to the House of Lords. However, it was not until the seventh day that they heard to their horror that the Equal Opportunities Commission felt that it could no longer allocate funds from its budget to take the men's case to the House of Lords. That occurred despite the fact that the Equal Opportunities Commission felt that they had been extremely hard done by. They heard about that decision on the seventh day, and there was no longer any time to take remedial action.
1254
They could not afford the cost of taking the case to the House of Lords.
Perhaps my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will base his response on Lord Denning's judgment. Perhaps nothing can be done in this case. Nevertheless, I hope that he will indicate the Government's view about this application of the Sex Discrimination Act. Does my hon. Friend think that the men have been treated fairly? Does he think that the will of Parliament, as expressed in that Act, has been properly reflected by the courts? In particular, does he think that because some women were discriminated against at some time in the past, men doing precisely the same job should be paid at a lower rate? Is it right that the prospect should exist of this differential widening unless something is done about it?
10.59 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Barney Hayhoe): My hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire. South (Mr. Spicer) has made a powerful case on behalf of some of his constituents, as he is entitled to do, but I suspect that some of his constituents are female drivers at the establishment in Malvern, and that they take a different view.
The male drivers felt that they had a grievance. They sought redress at the industrial tribunal in September 1978 and won their case. They may then have felt that that was the end of the matter, but the Ministry of Defence felt that that judgment was not in accordance with legislation passed by the House and appealed to the employment appeals tribunal in April 1979. That appeal was dismissed. My hon. Friend's consituents may again have felt that that was an end of the matter. I can therefore imagine their concern when they learnt that the Ministry proposed to take the matter to the Court of Appeal, as it was entitled to do. It was not the High Court, as my hon. Friend suggested. Lord Denning was sitting with two other judges, and he allowed the appeal.
When that appeal was contemplated, I imagine that my hon. Friend's constituents would have agreed with the view expressed by Lord Denning that, at first sight, it sounded like a good case. That was so much so that the industrial tri-

1255
bunal and the employment appeals tribunal found in favour of the male car drivers. However, Lord Denning's judgment went on to spell out clearly that the case that was deployed on behalf of the male drivers did not stand up when tested against legislation passed by the House. That was not only the judgment of Lord Denning; it was the unanimous decision of the three judges.
The grievance of the male drivers was their claim that there was discrimination against them on grounds of sex. The paradox is that the problem has arisen for the reverse reason. There had been no discrimination against men or women drivers employed by the Ministry of Defence and its predecessors since the end of the Second World War. Perhaps uniquely among that type of employee in Government service, there were not different rates of pay for men and women. Because of that history, some of the difficulties have occurred.
I reject my hon. Friend's paraphrase of Lord Denning's judgment. Those interested in the case should read the whole judgment. I shall quote only two parts. Lord Denning said:
"I do not think it is nearly as simple as that. If one inquires into the reason for this variation, one finds that it came about because of a curious and exceptional situation. The Ministry of Defence introduced the system to prevent discrimination because of sex.
It seems to me that the variation came about—not because of a difference of sex—but because of the system which had been adopted to eliminate the difference in pay between the men and the women."
Mr. Michael Spicer: On what grounds other than sex did the decision originate?
Mr. Hayhoe: After the end of the war there was no discrimination on pay between male and female drivers. The Ministry later introduced scales of pay that applied over a wide range of employment in which there were different rates of pay for males and females. In order to retain the position of no difference in pay, some people were allocated different bands.
As a result of the passing of legislation and the movement within the Civil Service to no discrimination between men and women across the whole field, the arrangement that had been made to avoid discrimination in this area began to run
1256
into difficulties. Some of the women drivers were being paid more than men doing a similar job. It was proposed that those women be put in the same band as the men, but the women saw themselves being disadvantaged.
Not all the women were involved. My hon. Friend did not differentiate between the women who had been in post and were carrying forward the higher level of remuneration and the general body of women, many of whom were paid at the same rate as men. At present, some women are getting different rates of pay, which are dependent upon their history. That was the point of the discussions with the trade unions and the agreement that 51 women of the 1,000 or so drivers covered by the arrangements carried forward a personal rate of pay so long as they remained in continuous employment as car drivers. The trade union side accepted that arrangement and did not support the male drivers, who pressed their grievance through the industrial tribunal and on through the employment appeal tribunal and the Court of Appeal.
In essence, we have a small and diminishing number of female car drivers who were in employment before 1 July 1975 at a number of Ministry establishments who had been given pay band 6 rates on a personal basis, and the decision to do that has been upheld by the Court of Appeal. Not all the women drivers are on that pay band. The latest figures that I have from Malvern are that eight women are getting that personal rate on band 6 and seven women are on band 4—the band that is applicable across the generality of drivers.
There is no doubt that the male drivers at Malvern and other establishments are receiving the correct rate for the job which applies to the rest of the 1,000 or so men and women drivers. There is a small group of women who have been allowed to retain their pre-1975 pay banding on a personal basis. The question was whether that personal basis fell within the 1970 Act, which was taken on board in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, and constituted a condition that fell in with section 1(3) of the original measure.
That section states:
"An equality clause shall not operate in relation to a variation between the woman's contract and the man's contract if the

1257
employer proves that the variation is genuinely due to a material difference (other than the difference of sex) between her case and his."
The judgment by the Court of Appeal rested on that. If my hon. Friend reads that judgment again, it will be difficult for him to conclude that the matter has not been addressed in a highly responsible and sensible fashion by Lord Denning, Lord Justice Waller and Lord Justice Dunn, who concurred in the judgment.
No discrimination because of sex has taken place against the men or the women drivers. Indeed, the reverse is true. The problems arose because the Ministry of Defence was determined not to introduce discrimination between men and women drivers and because it was removing discrimination in other trades and jobs. A small group of women felt that they were being disadvantaged as a result. They took their case, via their trade union, to the employers, and discussed it. An arrangement was made that was fair to them. As a result, an anomaly exists which is the subject of much misunderstanding.
Lord Justice Waller said:
"As a result, those women drivers who were employed before 1975 were not only different from men drivers but different from women drivers appointed after 1975."
In other words, the key to the distinction was not the sex of the drivers but the time at which they were employed. Lord Justice Waller continued:
"These 51 women, as my Lord has quoted,"—
that is, Lord Denning—
"are receiving band 6 payment on a personal basis as long as they remain in continuous employment as car drivers; and they are on that personal basis because of the peculiar circumstances in which the Ministry over the years before 1975—from 1970 to 1975—were endeavouring to remove the discrimination between men and women. Because of that, when the change was made in 1975, these women were aggrieved."
Although one understands the grievance, there is not the slightest justification for saying that the Ministry acted with other than the highest of motives. Because of the difficulties of the history of the case, the Ministry has made the best of the difficult decisions open to it in consultation with the small group of women involved.
Mr. Spicer: My hon. Friend has made much play of his argument that there was
1258
no discrimination before 1975. Quite blatantly there was, and it was based on sex. What other basis was there for the discrimination? It so happens that the discrimination, in practice, though not in terms of basic rates, was against the men. Does my hon. Friend feel that the present arrangements, whereby people who are doing precisely the same job and are paid differentially, is fair?
Mr. Hayhoe: In so far as the men and women who were employed after 1975 and are working in precisely the same conditions are paid the same rates, that is correct. My hon. Friend says that this applies to the women generally, but it concerns a small and diminishing band of women. They are 51 strong, and the number could have been reduced by retirement in the past few days since the figures came to me. Those women are retaining a higher rate on a personal basis and as an act of justice, taking account the history of the position. This matter, quite properly, went through the courts. The people with a grievance took it to the industrial tribunal, then, on appeal by my Department, to the employment appeal tribunal and, subsequently, to the Court of Appeal.
The anomaly referred to by my hon. Friend, and upon which he rests his whole case—that a small group of women, about half the drivers, are getting more pay than the majority of women drivers and all the male drivers—is, he says, contrary to the law. He is saying, effectively, that he disagrees with the judgment of the Court of Appeal. It is his privilege to make such an observation. Having read the report of the proceedings, I feel that the court arrived at a sensible conclusion to the matter.
As I read the text of what happened before the industrial tribunal, the employment appeal tribunal and the Court of Appeal, it seemed that, more and more, the commonsense point of view was being expressed by the courts, and less and less the pedantic legalistic view.
My hon. Friend asked whether I believed that what had now happened was in accordance with the decision of the House in the primary legislation. The answer is "Yes". That is why the House put in the phrase to which I referred in section 1(3) of the Act.
Mr. Spicer: It is based on sex.
Mr. Hayhoe: My hon. Friend may think that it is, but he is in a minority against the Court of Appeal, and he would also be in a minority, I think, if the issue were put to a wider forum. There is no ground for suggesting that the difference of pay between this small group of women and the other women and the men is, on a basis that goes back into the past, discriminatory in respect of one side or the other. It is a payment that reverts to the history of the matter. This
1260
is a situation in which whatever was done would cause some distress and sense of grievance by some of the people involved. Against that background, the decision that was come to first of all—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at eighteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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  Microelectronics
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  Specialist Teachers (Training)
TRADE
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  Nationalised Industries (Purchases)
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  Heathrow Airport
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  Special Steels
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  Insurance Contract Law
ENERGY
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  Oil Rig Manufacture
EMPLOYMENT
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  Sheffield (School leavers)
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  Yorkshire and Humberside Region
  Yorkshire and Humberside Region
  Employment Legislation
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MR. CHAPMAN PINCHER
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FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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SOCIAL SERVICES
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  Benefits
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  Depo Provera
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ENVIRONMENT
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  Zoos and Menageries
  Zoos and Menageries
  Victoria Gate
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  Building Inspectorate
  Overseas Missions and Public Works
  Overseas Missions and Public Works
  West Midlands (Economic Initiatives)
  West Midlands (Economic Initiatives)
  Local Authority Services (Private Contracting)
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  Battered Wives (Accommodation)
  Battered Wives (Accommodation)

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Peterborough.

UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY: UK VOTES ON CAMBODIA
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how their delegation at the United Nations General Assembly has been instructed to vote on the retention of representation of the Pol Pot régime in Kampuchea.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we thought it right to support the ASEAN countries in the recent General Assembly votes on Cambodia. On credentials, we were among 74 countries who rejected an attempt by the Vietnamese and their friends to amend the unopposed report of the Credentials Committee. I have placed in the Library copies of our explanation of vote and of our intervention in the General Assembly discussion on the 16th October.
Lord BROCKWAY: Yes, my Lords; but is it not inconceivable that the United Nations should endorse the Pol Pot régime, which is the most infamous since Hitler, massacring thousands of men, women and children—worse even than Hitler's treatment of the Jews? Would it not have been possible to urge that the seat should remain vacant until a new situation had arisen?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, of course we did not in any way give our support or add any credence to the Pol Pot régime. Successive British Governments have made clear their detestation of the democratic Kampuchean régime, in particular at the United Nations Human Rights Commission, and we neither want nor expect its return to power. As for the suggestion of leaving the seat
922
empty, this was not the proposal facing us, though the seat might have been left empty had the amendment passed. In any case, this would have been seen by all concerned as a step towards acquiescing in Vietnam's aggression.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, has not this United Nations decision prejudiced Vietnam's acceptance of the proposal for a United Nations supervision of the next election in Kampuchea? Is not the proposal of the ASEAN nations for a conference and aid to reconstruction in Indo-China much the better approach?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right about the conference proposal, which was coupled, of course, with the call for the withdrawal of Vietnamese troops and enjoyed over-whelming support. We hope that on sober reflection Vietnam will decide to take part in an early conference.
Lord PARGITER: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that this is another example of the operation of international power politics?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am not quite sure that I follow the gist of the noble Lord's question, which I must say was a bit mysterious.

EXERCISE CRUSADER
2.40 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement as soon as possible on the lessons learnt from Exercise Crusader.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal): My Lords, Crusader was a very successful exercise. Over 30,000 troops were moved from the United Kingdom, including some 20,000 members of the Territorial Army and substantial numbers of the RAF. The TA turn-out was high and its performance throughout received well-deserved praise. The great majority of reinforcements were in their

923
exercise positions within 48 hours of leaving their bases, demonstrating our ability to reinforce BAOR swiftly and effectively should the need arise. The field training exercise in Germany, in which American and German forces played a prominent part, tested our operational techniques on a scale previously untried. A number of areas have been identified where improvements may be needed, and many valuable lessons have been learned. But it will take several months to analyse the exercise in detail.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether he can elaborate a little as to how our allies, and particularly Germany, regarded the exercise?
Lord STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I believe that our allies in NATO were impressed by our ability to perform the reinforcement role which we had undertaken, and I think they also particularly welcomed this demonstration of our commitment to defence on the European continent.
Lord PEART: My Lords, would the Minister tell me what the cost was to us? I am not against defence in any way, naturally; but how much did this whole exercise cost?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the exercise cost was in the region of £82 million in excess of normal exercise costs, and we believe that this was very well worth while.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister, in reference to his statement that the auxiliary forces deserved praise, to say how they adapted themselves to the situation along-side our regular forces? He probably is aware that many Members of the House of Lords—including myself—consider the efficiency of our auxiliary forces to be of supreme importance.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his question, which shows considerable understanding of what
924
this exercise was intended to do. We were extremely satisfied, both by the turn-out of the Territorial Army and their performance, and I believe that the Regular Army were very impressed by the demonstrated ability of the auxiliary forces to support them in the way which was planned, in a time of tension.
Earl CATHCART: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister tell us whether, when the Government have completed their analysis of the lessons learnt from this very important exercise, a fuller statement will be made available to the public? Also, could some report of this be included in the annual Defence White Paper?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, these are two interesting ideas. Certainly a full analysis of the exercise will be made: after spending that much money, of course, it would be necessary. When the report has been compiled in the New Year we shall have to consider how much of it could be presented both to the House and to the public at large, and what would be the most effective way of doing it, consistent with the security considerations which are bound to surround it.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any lessons were learned from this exercise about the ability of small numbers of infantry, using modern laser-guided anti-tank weapons, to stop an armoured thrust in Central Europe: and what conclusions we may draw from this regarding the effectiveness of the limited numbers of troops we can deploy in Germany to counter the possibility of invasion from the East?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the noble Lord is asking me rather a technical question and I think this is exactly the sort of thing which will come out in further analysis. I do not in fact know whether the reinforcement forces were using the kind of laser-guided weapons to which the noble Lord refers.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the very much reduced military transport force is adequate to meet the operational needs, not only of exercises but of potential war?

925
Also, would it not be worthwhile taking up Sir Freddie Laker's offer to adapt, at very small cost, the DC-10s he has on order, so that they can reinforce the limited air transport we now have?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the noble Lord raises both a general and a specific question. So far as the general question is concerned, I think the exercise demonstrated that there is an ability to provide the necessary transport to do the kind of reinforcement which is required. I do not know the answer to the specific question raised by my noble friend, but I am sure it has been considered. I do recall that the Americans have for some years considered the possibility of strengthening all the civil transport fleet, but they have decided that even for them it would probably be a prohibitively expensive exercise.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, does the noble Lord think he can really be very proud of the fact that it took 48 hours to get men from Britain to the battlefront in France? I ask this question because in 1915 we did it in less than 24 hours.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, my memory does not go back as far as the noble Lord's, and I would not dispute his facts. I do not know what numbers he is referring to, but the 48 hours we are talking about covered the whole of the reinforcement and I would imagine that some of the forces arrived there in less than 24 hours.

THE PRESS: DRAFT CODE OF CONDUCT
2.47 p.m.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will delete paragraph 59 of the draft code of conduct on the closed shop which lays down specific factors which newspaper editors have to take into account when deciding whether or not to publish and thereby endangers editorial freedom.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, while the observance of the provisions of paragraph 59 of the draft code is not mandatory, the Government do not in any case accept that observance of it would endanger editorial freedom. This paragraph is closely based on what was agreed within the newspaper industry—including representatives of newspaper editors—during the talks on a possible Press Charter held under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Pearce, in 1976 and 1977. The comments we have received on the draft code have indicated general support for this section. The draft code emphasises editors' final responsibility for the content of their publication and their freedom to decide on that content.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, could my noble friend look at this clause again most carefully? Once you start imposing on an editor what he should have regard to in exercising his freedom, you inhibit his freedom. Is it not most unwise to do that at this juncture because of the great importance of our media to the well-being of our democratic process? Would he look at it again? It would seem best just to leave out the three matters he is meant to take into account while exercising his freedom.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend's remarks on the importance of editorial independence and the importance of a free press to a democratic system. The only place where I part company with my noble friend is in his use of the word "imposed". The code does not impose anything: it simply points to the best general practice.
Lord ARDWICK: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this clause is merely an endorsement of the time-honoured right of journalists to negotiate with their editors the quantity of contributed matter that shall appear in their newspapers, and that most editors would be quite happy about it? Does he not think that on subjects of such complexity it would be far better for them to be considered in a full-ranging debate rather than in this manner at Question Time?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I do not think there is anything wrong in raising important issues in Question Time. I could not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, about that. However, the kind of experience the noble Lord brings to press questions is respected by us all and it is that kind of experience we have looked for during the consultation period. As I said in my original Answer, we have been pretty pleased with the support we have received.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, will the noble Lord look again, not merely at paragraph 59 but also at paragraph 56? That says in terms that where an individual journalist finds that his freedom to report is being interfered with by his membership of a trade union his employers are to respect that interference.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, paragraph 56 is, of course, as the noble Lord said, very important to us and we pay great regard to it. I am not aware of any union-management agreements in national papers and I think, on the whole, that the greatest threat to editorial independence comes not from the sort of issues that we have been raising, but from restrictive practices and inability to move with the times in the industry generally.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us are not concerned about editors being hamstrung, in the context of the question of the closed shop, because we are sick and tired of editors attacking the trade unions every day of the week?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, the Government are coming in for a fair amount of stick from editors, but that does not mean to say that we think that they should be disbarred from doing so.
Lord HUNT: My Lords, does the Minister recall that the Royal Commission on the Press, which reported in 1977, regarded the unfettered discretion of editors, save only in regard to conforming with the general policy of their publication, to be of absolutely fundamental importance to the freedom of the press? Does he also recall that among our recommendations in regard to the closed shop, in the aftermath of the debate on the legislation under the previous Govern-
928
ment, a draft to that effect was proposed to the Government of the day and that it is a matter of great regret that no action was taken by that Government on our recommendations?
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, I am, of course, naturally glad to say that the present Government have succeeded in getting agreement where the previous Government failed, because this is a matter of great importance to all Governments, whatever political complexion they may have.
Lord SPENS: My Lords, does not the Minister consider that there is something of an anomaly here, in the line that he is taking over this Answer, remembering what happened yesterday on the Broadcasting Bill, when an amendment, which would have enabled educational sections to take account of international situations, was knocked out as being too restrictive?
The Earl of GOWRIE: No, my Lords; I do not think I do.

ZONE OF PEACE: INDIAN OCEAN PROPOSAL
2.52 p.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will propose in the United Nations Security Council that an initiative be taken to secure the neutralisation of the Indian Ocean as a zone of peace.
Lord TREFGARNE: No, my Lords. We believe that the United Nations Ad Hoc Committee on the Indian Ocean, which is already considering a proposal for the Indian Ocean to be declared a zone of peace, is the right place for further consideration of this idea.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, if the Government are seriously concerned about world disarmament, as they say they are, they can give serious consideration to this proposal? Is not the situation becoming

929
worse by the visit of the Soviet naval head to Ethiopia to establish great port bases, by the action of the United States in approaching Somalia and Kenya for bases and by the united exercises by the USA and the United Kingdom? Would the noble Lord consider this question arising from his Answer? What are the prospects of a conference on the Indian Ocean as a zone of peace at Colombo next year, as proposed by the first committee of the United Nations, supported by France, the whole Commonwealth, India and all the littoral states of the Indian Ocean, with the exception of Oman?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we shall, of course, give careful consideration to attending any conference which has broad international support. But we have to consider the proposal of a zone of peace in the light of a number of criteria, perhaps the most important of which is whether it would, in fact, enhance our security.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, while totally agreeing with the last sentence of the Minister's reply, may I ask whether the attitude of the Government does not reflect rather a complacent and negative attitude to a situation which is in itself really very explosive?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, the situation in that part of the world is, indeed, a dangerous one. But the principal threat comes—does it not?—from the Russian invasion of Afghanistan just a few miles to the north.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, may we take it from the Minister's original Answer that, during the course of the discussions at the United Nations on this most important issue, the British Government will use all their influence in order to establish a zone of peace in the Indian Ocean?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we would of course wish to see this vital area in the world remain stable and independent. That is in the interests of the countries in the area, as well as of the West as a whole. But the countries of the region should not be allowed to feel threatened by Soviet expansionism.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, would the Minister consider the more limited objective of the Americans agreeing not to proceed with the construction of bases in Somalia, on the grounds that the Soviet Union and the Cubans would agree to withdraw from Ethiopia?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, we will consider any proposal that enhances the security of the region, but I am not sure that that one does.
Lord MORRIS: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that if any nation, or group of nations, had known how to secure the neutralisation of any zone as a zone of peace, then there would never have been any wars?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, that is a fairly profound supplementary. My noble friend may well be right.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, is it not the case that the Soviet Union is actually supporting this proposal? If it is insincere in doing so, would it not be good for our Government and the West to test it by calling it to a conference to consider the proposal.
Lord TREFGARNE: Quite frankly, my Lords, Soviet support of this proposal makes it all the more suspicious.

GREATER MANCHESTER BILL [H.L.]
2.57 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare)The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare) rose to move, That this House do concur with the Orders made by the Commons set out in their Message of Wednesday 6th August last and that the Promoters of the Bill have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon, in order to proceed with the Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the day before the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon up to that period shall have been paid;
That such Bill shall he deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not

931
later than three o'clock on the third day on which the House shall sit after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session;
That the proceedings on such Bill shall in the next Session of Parliament be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged to such stages;
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply in the next Session of Parliament to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving this Motion, it might be convenient for the House if I were to speak also to the second Motion in my name on the Order Paper. These rather long and complicated Motions are, in fact, for a simple purpose, to enable these Private Bills, if deposited again next Session, to continue their progress through Parliament. This procedure, which will enable the proceedings on the Bills to be formal in respect of the stages which they have passed this Session, will save delay and expense to all parties concerned.
The reason for the difference between the two Motions is that the Greater Manchester Bill started its progress in this House and is now in the other place, whereas the other four Bills are still under consideration in this House. It is in no way the fault of the promoters that the Bills are not ready for Royal Assent this Session, and I hope therefore that your Lordships will agree to this Motion. I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That this House do concur with the Orders made by the Commons set out in their Message of Wednesday 6th August last and that the Promoters of the Bill have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon, in order to proceed with the Bill, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so he lodged in the Office of the Clerk
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of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the day before the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon up to that period shall have been paid;
That such Bill shall be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the third day on which the House shall sit after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session;
That the proceedings on such Bill shall in the next Session of Parliament be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged to such stages;
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply in the next Session of Parliament to such Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
COUNTY OF KENT BILL [H.L.]
DERBYSHIRE BILL [H.L.]
EAST SUSSEX BILL [H.L.]
HUMBERSIDE BILL [H.L.]
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Promoters of the Bills have leave to suspend any further proceedings thereon, in order to proceed with the Bills, if they shall think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the day before the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon up to that period shall have been paid;
That such Bills shall be deposited in the Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments not later than three o'clock on the third day on which the House shall sit after the commencement

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of the next Session of Parliament, with a declaration annexed to each, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session;
That the proceedings on such Bills shall in the next Session of Parliament be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged to such stages;
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply in the next Session of Parliament to such Bills in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

EDUCATION (ASSISTED PLACES) REGULATIONS 1980
2.59 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young): My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Education (Assisted Places) Regulations 1980, which were laid before your Lordships' House on 21st July, be approved. These regulations will provide the detailed framework for the operation of the assisted places scheme which is being established under Section 17 of the Education Act 1980. Your Lordships discussed that provision at some length when we considered the Education Bill in the spring and I remember clearly the points made about the scheme then, even though on one occasion the debate was in the early hours of the morning. But it may be for the convenience of the House to say again why we decided to introduce the scheme and how, in general terms, we see it working.
Our starting point was the decision of the previous Labour Administration to phase out the direct grant scheme which had operated successfully for many years. We determined that the considerable educational opportunities which that scheme had offered to the children of parents from all walks of life should not
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be destroyed. In particular we recognised that the direct grant schools had, in general, provided a highly disciplined academic environment which was of especial benefit to more able children. With the ending of the direct grant most of these schools decided to go independent and thus, except for a small number of bursaries, to charge full fees to all their pupils. In the last few years the excellent educational opportunities which the schools offered have consequently been denied to pupils from families of limited means who could not afford the fees charged.
We committed ourselves therefore to restoring a system whereby able children could take advantage of the academic kind of education offered by these schools, whatever their parents' level of income. We recognised that the old direct grant scheme had certain weaknesses. It gave an indiscriminate subsidy through completely free places and the capitation grant to some parents who could well have afforded to pay the fee. The schools in the scheme were very unevenly distributed throughout the country. They were neither maintained nor independent, and membership of the scheme was very inflexible. In restoring the opportunities lost with the ending of the direct grant scheme we sought to improve that scheme. The assisted places scheme will only provide a subsidy in accordance with parents' means, and by bringing into the new scheme independent schools which were not part of the direct grant scheme we will be both widening still further the educational opportunities on offer and improving markedly the geographical distribution of those opportunities.
Much has been made in the media and elsewhere about the assisted places scheme providing a subsidy for the public schools. That is quite wrong. The scheme is a scheme to help children; it is not a scheme to help schools. It is not a scheme to help the private sector of education. It is a scheme to allow the private sector to make what they have to offer more widely available, a scheme to help some children to attend good independent schools whose parents might wish them to do so, but who in most cases could not begin to think about affording the fees. This Government believe that that is the right attitude to independent schools: to make

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the best that they have to offer as widely available as possible. In this country we need the best education we can get for our pupils, to make available as wide a range of opportunities as possible, and to provide as best we can for the educational needs of each child. Maintained schools provide a very great deal, but the private sector can help supplement that provision, and it would be quite wrong to deny those wider opportunities to pupils who could benefit from them but whose parents cannot afford the fees.
Although the resources available for the assisted places scheme are not substantial, we thought it appropriate to make some of them available for the support of pupils attending certain music schools for specialist musicians of high ability and potential. The schools concerned are Chetham's School of Music in Manchester, Wells Cathedral School and the Purcell School in Harrow. This will be an extension of the arrangements instituted in 1973 in respect of the Yehudi Menuhin School and the Royal Ballet Lower School. The numbers of pupils to be assisted in this way and other details are being discussed with the five schools concerned, and we hope to be able to introduce regulations to deal with these arrangements in the next Session. I would emphasise, however, that although the money for this extension of our support for talented musicians of school age is being found initially from the assisted places scheme at a cost of about £150,000 in the first year, there will be separate schemes operated under separate sets of regulations.
Let me now turn to the schools which we are inviting to participate in the assisted places scheme. There were 470 schools in England and 17 schools in Wales which originally indicated an interest in the scheme. Of those, 290 in England and 11 in Wales were invited to submit formal applications specifying the number of assisted places they would wish to offer and providing details about each school and the academic achievements of its pupils. We considered all these applications carefully, looking in particular for breadth and balance of curriculum to GCE O and A-levels, for a well established sixth form offering a range of A-level subjects with reasonable numbers
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of candidates obtaining good results in those examinations, appropriately qualified and stable teaching staff and appropriate teaching facilities and accommodation. On that basis, we have now invited 218 schools in England and nine schools in Wales to join the scheme and to sign the necessary participation agreements.
The detailed figures are still subject to agreement with the schools concerned, but in total there will be about 5,500 places in England and 150 places in Wales next year, of which about 900 will be for direct entry into the sixth form.
About 2,440 places will be for boys, 2,240 places for girls and 970 places in mixed schools. Clearly the balance between boys' and girls' places will not be perfect everywhere. It is fairly close overall, but there are a few places where we have not been able to achieve such a close balance. I regret that, but we have done our best and, in the final analysis, we could not of course depart significantly from the balance between boys' and girls' places that already exists in the independent sector as a whole. The geographical distribution of places, too, shows some imbalance in favour of the North-West, Avon and the South-East. To some extent that reflects the old direct grant scheme which was heavily concentrated in those areas, but it also reflects the spread of independent schools generally around the country. In fact, while it is by no means perfect, the distribution of assisted places will represent a marked improvement on the geographical spread of the old direct grant scheme. That improvement has been achieved in large part by the likely involvement in the scheme of 109 independent schools which were not direct grant schools. Those schools will be providing about 37 per cent. of the assisted places on offer, and I find it pleasing that we shall have such a wide cross-section of schools in the scheme substantially enhancing the range of educational opportunities available.
The next steps will be for each of the schools to enter into participation agreements with the Secretary of State, as is required by Section 17 of the 1980 Act. When those have been completed the schools will set about the important task of selecting the pupils who will take up the first assisted places in September next year. All this planning and pre-

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paration has been going ahead so that the scheme can start in 1981. It is well-advanced and progressing satisfactorily, but it is of course only provisional and is entirely contingent upon the approval of these draft regulations in this debate today.
Section 17(6) of the 1980 Act sets out very clearly the matters which these regulations cover. Briefly they are: first, the conditions of eligibility for selection for an assisted place; second, the arrangements for the remission of fees and the reimbursement of schools for the fees which they remit; third, conditions relating to the selection and admission of pupils, the charging of fees, keeping accounts and providing information; and finally, any other matters the Secretary of State considers appropriate. I shall describe only some of the main provisions contained in these draft regulations and if there are detailed questions which your Lordships wish to raise during the course of the debate, I will try to answer them at the end.
The first part of the regulations deals with matters of definition and interpretation. In particular, it sets out the considerations which will apply if a pupil's parents are separated or divorced. This is always a difficult area, especially where, as in this scheme, the assessment of parental income is involved. We have therefore sought to cover the many possible circumstances fairly comprehensively so that parents and schools will know where they stand and so reduce the scope for disputes.
Your Lordships will notice that the definition of "fees" for the purposes of the scheme specifically excludes boarding fees. This is in line with Section 17 of the Act which restricts assistance under the scheme to tuition and examination fees only. However, a number of schools have offered to provide assistance with boarding fees from their own resources, and as a result it may be possible for perhaps up to 300 pupils gaining assisted places under the scheme to be boarders. I should emphasise, though, that schools will not be able to require assisted place holders to board unless the school is assisting with fees for that purpose.
Part II of the regulations deals with matters of eligibility and selection. Regula-
938
tion 4 specifies that pupils must have been ordinarily resident in this country for three years before becoming eligible for an assisted place, or that they are the children of migrant workers from other states in the European Community. Regulation 5 provides that a child may only be admitted to an assisted place at a normal age of entry to the school and that he or she must be at least 11 when admitted, or reach that age during their first assisted year. Exceptions to the first of these rules will only be permitted if a pupil could be admitted to an assisted place alongside existing assisted placeholders of the same age.
Regulation 6 lays down further considerations that apply to the selection of pupils for direct entry to assisted places at sixth form level. This issue was much debated when the Bill was being considered, both by your Lordships and in another place. After discussions with local authorities and schools, we decided that it would be right to introduce an extra condition for sixth form entry. The regulation before your Lordships provides that transfers from maintained schools will normally take place only with the consent of the local education authority concerned. Thus, where an independent school can widen the educational opportunities available—by, for instance, offering additional subjects or combinations of subjects at A level—an authority would be able to take advantage of this extra provision at no cost to itself. On the other hand, if an authority was already providing the A level opportunities which pupils sought and if it did not wish its sixth forms reduced by transfers to independent schools, it could withhold its consent. We believe that this regulation, used responsibly by authorities, will help to overcome the difficulties which were foreseen about sixth form entries; and indeed that it may serve to encourage fruitful co-operation between maintained and independent schools.
Under Regulation 7, pupils will not be eligible for assisted places unless they qualify for fee remission under the income scale in their first assisted year. There is however provision in Regulations 5(2)(b) and 6(2)(b) for pupils whose parents fall on hard times after entering their children in a school as fee-payers to be eligible to be considered for assistance at that time.

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Regulation 8 places the basic responsibility for selecting the pupils on the schools themselves. I am sure that that is right. Judgments about whether or not particular children can benefit from the education offered by a specific school can clearly best be made by that school in the light of the individual circumstances and after the fullest consultation with parents and others involved.
The detailed arrangements for the remission of fees are dealt with in Part III and the schedule to the draft regulations. I do not propose to describe them at length, as the provisions are necessarily complex. Basically, the contribution which parents are required to pay towards school fees will be assessed in relation to their total income and the unearned income of their dependent children in the previous financial year. The only exclusions from that total income figure will be child benefit, certain disability allowances, and £600 for each dependent child (or other dependent relative) except the assisted placeholder.
The means test or income scale against which the figure of the family's relevant income will be set has been designed to be generous to the less well off, so that families at the bottom end of the scale receive free places or make only small contributions to fees. However, once income levels start to exceed the national average, parental contributions will increase more steeply, with parents paying at the margin between 30 per cent. and 50 per cent. of their net income. In practice this means that families with a relevant income of £4,766 or less will have fees remitted completely in 1981–82; those with relevant incomes of £5,500 would pay £99; those with £7,500 would pay £480; and then the scale increases more sharply so that families with relevant incomes of £11,000 would pay fees of up to £1,500 before they received any assistance. We have always made it clear that the scheme is not intended to help those who could afford independent school fees themselves, possibly by making some relatively slight additional sacrifice. Rather we have sought to ensure that the lower and middle income groups who could not otherwise possibly afford independent school fees get sufficient assistance to make it a real possibility that they could take advantage of the scheme.
940
While I am on the subject of the extent of financial assistance, your Lordships may find it useful to know that, in addition to the remission of tuition fees, the Government intend to help less well off families with the incidential expenses of assisted place holders—that is, with the cost of school meals, uniforms and transport. The Secretary of State will be making regulations under Section 18 of the 1980 Act, covering those expenses, in due course, but I should make it quite clear that these will be met from the resources of the scheme. This will not be an extra provision.
The remaining parts of the draft regulations cover various administrative and miscellaneous requirements. There are two of these to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. First, Regulation 18 will require the schools to publish information about the scheme and about themselves. In particular, it will place the same requirements on independent schools in the scheme as on maintained schools regarding the publication of the public examination results achieved by their pupils.
Secondly, Regulation 19 will require that at least 60 per cent. of assisted place-holders be drawn from publicly maintained schools. In fact, because the income scale is so strict, it seems unlikely that many pupils whose parents have afforded the fees at independent junior schools would be eligible, on income grounds, for assisted places at secondary level. We therefore fully expect the proportion of assisted placeholders from maintained schools to be higher than 60 per cent., but this regulation will provide a minimum safeguard.
My Lords, I have outlined the major features of these draft regulations. I believe that the regulations will provide a sound administrative framework for the operation of the assisted places scheme and I commend them to your Lordships. I am sure that the scheme which they will regulate will be of great benefit to able children in this country and that the widening of educational opportunities that it will offer from September next year will be a significant step forward in meeting the educational needs of all our children. I beg to move.

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Moved, That the draft Education (Assisted Places) Regulations 1980 be approved.—(Baroness Young.)
3.16 p.m.
Lord STEWART of FULHAM: My Lords, this is indeed a momentous occasion. The Government are proposing to increase public expenditure and, what is even more remarkable, they are proposing to increase it on education and they have found a new way of doing so because these regulations are a method by which a new channel of transferring public money to private persons may be opened. This is contrary to the Government's general approach. Every day when we open the papers we learn of the state of play inside the Cabinet and exactly which social services are to be hardest hit, in addition to the cuts which have been imposed already. We must therefore presume that with these regulations which provide for increased public expenditure through a new channel we are dealing with something that is absolutely essential to the national survival, because I am sure the noble Baroness would not have proposed anything so irresponsible as an increase in public expenditure unless she was sure that the nation's survival depended upon the speedy introduction of the assisted places scheme. I am afraid there are some of my noble friends who might not share that view; who might consider that to come forward with this proposal, which we are told is going to run up to over £50 million in the end, in the present situation of cuts and economy is little short of grotesque.
The proposed intention of this scheme was to help poor, bright children to get an education, which, it was alleged, they would not be able to get elsewhere. I do not think there is any dispute; that was the argument behind this. As to "poor", like the noble Baroness I do not propose to go through a tedious account of the exact working of the sliding scale, but I think there is just one example that will make clear the general point that many of us on this side of the House have in mind. A family with two dependent children and an income of £4,000 is considered to be too prosperous to be able to get free school meals whereas a family with one child and an income of
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£8,000 will, if they are lucky, get in effect a gift of £500 under this scheme. It is extremely difficult to defend that or to know exactly what the Government meant when they talked about "poor", bright children.
The noble Baroness is reported as having claimed that expenditure in this way will widen parental choice. Of course, if you take a particular parent and say, "If you fulfil certain conditions and are one of the lucky ones, you will get £500 more to spend on your child's education", you obviously widen the parental choice of that parent. But you do it, as it becoming increasingly apparent, at the expense of other parents who have to send their children to schools that are not being assisted in this fashion, that are indeed being repeatedly cut, partly because of the expenditure under this scheme.
Then they are to be bright children. What do the regulations say about that? This is a very interesting point. The theory behind this business is that you can, when the child is about 11, spot it as bright, a high flyer who ought to receive a special kind of education, and you work also on the assumption that it cannot get that education in the State system of education. But the regulations say no more than that to be a child helped by this scheme it must be capable of benefiting from the education provided by the school. One would hope it was; one would hope the school could at least do that. But what they ought to be demonstrating, and what there is no attempt to demonstrate, is that it could not get the education from which it could benefit in the ordinary state system. How do you prove that?
It has often been asserted in the general argument about comprehensive secondary education that there are children who must be treated in this special manner. There is not a word in the regulations about how they are identified. They are to be chosen; it is not parental choice—by the schools participating in the scheme. There will be no attempt to consider whether or of they could have done at least as well in the state system. This is the shadowy justification advanced for the specialised expenditure of public money on what, I must say I think fortunately, is a very few families. But it is in

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fact a form of favouritism to those families whose children are approved and chosen by these schools.
We now know, as we did not know when we were discussing the Education Act, that when the Government devised this scheme they had in their possession a fairly extensive report on education in the nation's own schools which disposed of the proposition that bright children cannot get a proper education at comprehensive schools. That is something which has been alleged for a long time. The weight of evidence has been steadily mounting against it; there has been this recent report which went heavily against it, which was in the Government's possession, but not yet published, when we debated the Education Act. It has since been published.
I say, therefore, that this aspect of the scheme is nonsensical. It is based on the propositions, first, that there are these children suffering in the State system, secondly, that they can be adequately identified, and, thirdly, that this justifies an exceptional expenditure of money on them, partly at the expense of all the other children in the country needing education. I would say this is a nonsensical as well as an unjust proposition.
What is going to be the effect on the nation's own schools? I repeat that for my part I am at any rate glad that the scheme is limited in scope. But so far as it has an effect on the nation's own schools it will be what is called a "creaming off" effect. It is intended to be. The scheme will be considered to be working at its best if the really most gifted children are taken out of the nation's own schools. And—this has been added since the debate on the Bill—this is to be done in the sixth form as well.
What is one of the criticisms often levelled against comprehensive schools? That they could not build up an adequate and viable sixth form. Very tiresomely from the point of view of the pundits, they began to disprove this in practice. Then the Government come along and say, "You are building up viable sixth forms. Well, we are going to try and encourage your most gifted children in the sixth forms to shunt somewhere else". We are told that the sixth form part of the scheme can operate only with the consent
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of the local education authority. So far so good. But the Secretary of State for Education is on record as saying quite recently that if local authorities behaved in a way that he would consider unreasonable he would take steps to ensure that they could not do so. This is the story of the Local Government Planning and Land Bill all over again. Things are what the Secretary of State considers they ought to be. If the local authorities use the power that these regulations give them in a way that the Secretary of State does not like, the power is to be taken away from them.
This is tied up with the recent requirement that schools should publish examination results. I have never minded that so much, but I think that if schools are to publish examination results local authorities ought also to publish how much they spend per child on each of the schools for which they are responsible. In both those cases they are an interesting set of facts, from which people can draw their deductions. But what the Government have done here is to say, "The schools must publish examination results, and we are taking steps to shift some of the brightest children from the nations' schools to private schools and thus to tilt the examination results, if we can, in favour of the private sector. Then we shall be able to turn round and say, ' These comprehensive schools are not doing so well. Look at the exam results!'".
The noble Baroness said this was not a scheme to help the private schools, but does she suggest that an arrangement the whole purpose of which is to attract the abler pupils out of the nation's schools into the private schools is not a scheme to help the private schools? If it is not, the whole argument for the proposal falls down. I must mention that the noble Baroness brought into her speech, although, as she said, it is not actually in the regulations, the additional provision of grants for clothing, meals and transport for children affected by the scheme. It is worthwhile noticing, again as a measure of the Government's sense of priorities, that the grants to be made, if what the Secretary of State has so far said is to be believed, are substantially more generous than the clothing, meals and transport provisions made for children in the public sector, even where such grants exist, because they are discretionary and in some cases do not exist at all.

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What is the justification for this, for picking out a small particular group of children and saying, "We are going to treat you better than the rest, at the public expense, in the matter not only of education, but your clothes, your meals and your way of getting to school". I would warn the noble Baroness of this: even so, the grants proposed to be made will in many cases fall far short of what the parents will find they are expected to spend on clothing when their children go to one of these schools. They will find that, although they get the assistance under the scheme, although they get the clothing grant, there is a considerable gap between the clothing grant provided and what the school will require them to spend over and above what they would have spent if the child had been at home in the ordinary way.
This means that it will be much harder for really poor parents to benefit under this scheme than for those who are approaching a middle class level of expenditure and income. That, I may say, was one of the features of the old direct grant schools scheme, and one of the features that made it unattractive, that all too often it was extra help to those who did not really need it in comparison with the needs of education as a whole and of the children of the whole nation.
All these matters are, in a sense, matters of detail—exactly what children, how much, and so on. Of course, our objection goes a great deal deeper, and we ought not, I think, to allow the argument to trail away merely into the details of the financial scheme, or which schools or where the schools are. Indeed, the whole thing reminds me very much of an argument put forward by G. K. Chesterton; I am afraid I cannot quote it exactly but I have the sense correctly. He was criticising a particular form of argument and he did it with the following example:
"While there may be two opinions about the desirability of injecting gin into the veins of babies, everyone will agree that if it is done at all it should be done by a qualified medical practitioner".
We might all agree that if we are to have this sort of thing, this may be as good a way or as bad a way as any other of doing it, but we ought not to avert our
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eyes from the main question of what it is we are doing.
This is a piece of favouritism based on nonsensical ideas about how one chooses the exceptionally bright children and treating the nation's own schools with something that is unpleasantly like malice by putting them in a position in which they are always in danger of having unfavourable comparisons made between them and the private schools and producing that result by expenditure from public funds in, as I say, a form of legalised favouritism. We must put this against the background of what is being done elsewhere in education. The nation's own schools are being hit with regard to the size of their classes, their equipment, their books; and not only the ordinary schools but the reduction of nursery provision, and now pressing on us the alarming reductions that are going to have to be made in the provisions for adult education. Up to now we have been told, "Oh, but this scheme is not coming out of the education budget; this is something quite separate." Can the Government say that now?
They are considering further cuts in education. If they make any further cuts affecting the ordinary schools, instead of scrapping this scheme, they are undoubtedly preferring this scheme to the needs of the rest of the education service. Even if it were not the rest of the education service it is at the expense of something, and the newspapers are full of agreeable suggestions as to what the Government will cut next. Are old-age pensioners going to have to pay prescription charges in order to find the money for this kind of thing? If it is not that, it will be something else of that kind. The thing itself is a piece of malicious nonsense, and for the Government to bring it forward in this present atmosphere of economy and cuts is astounding. We are told it is to cost £3 million this year and when it is full grown it will rise to £55 million. I have a strong feeling that before it is full grown that figure will have grown as well. Whether it is £55 million, £50 million, £5 million, £5 or 5p, it is too much to pay for this piece of malicious nonsense.
3.34 p.m.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: My Lords, I am overcome by a sense of

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déjà vu. It brings me back to the days of the last Conservative Government. Your Lordships may remember noble Lords rising in their places opposite, on the Government Front Bench, and ticking off the election manifesto pledges one by one just for the sake of it, no matter how irrelevant or silly the promise might seem in the light of the cold post-election dawn. When the champagne of coming electoral victory is bubbling in the veins, how many rash commitments are made! It is understandable. But how raddled the object of our attentions looks the next morning when the champagne has given way to a hangover. And for this Government, what a hangover!
A close perusal of the scheme before us shows that it falls firmly into this category: at first glimpse, an attractive election promise. Every child has in his knapsack, if not a field marshal's baton with which to win the Battle of Waterloo at least a cricket bat to triumph on the playing fields of Eton. At first glance, it is an attractive election promise, but now it looks very threadbare indeed. Looking round the educational world one can see only two bodies who are in favour—the independent schools, who are to get more paying customers together with a few tattered figleaves to cover the nakedness of their social conscience, and the Conservative Education Ministers. Your Lordships will be relieved to hear that my speech will be even shorter than is usually my wont, since a certain portion of any normal speech in opposition to a Government measure is given to refuting the arguments put forward in its favour by the Government. But in this particular case there are hardly any Government arguments to refute.
Last week the Secretary of State said, at column 625 on 29th October:
"All I will say now about the principle of the scheme is that it is not for the benefit of the schools or the teachers or even the parents".
He can say that again! Since he is not here, I will. It is not for the benefit of the schools or the teachers or even the parents. Such an admission certainly sweeps the ground from under our feet. Such modesty in Ministers is unusual. But the Secretary of State did make one claim—that the measure is:
"… first and foremost for the benefit of the children".
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That is a splendid claim and if it were true maybe we could discard the schools, the teachers and the parents as unimportant, as the Secretary of State for Education does. But it is not true. First, it is not true because it is impossible for us to disentangle what is good for the child from what is good for the parents, the teachers and the schools. The whole interacts: it is all part not just of the education scheme but of the pattern of bringing up children; and if it is not for the benefit of the schools, the parents and the teachers, it is hard to see that it can possibly be good for the children. It is a very simplistic view of the education scene which could isolate one factor like that; but simplistic views of education are the kind that we are used to over the last few years from the Conservative Party.
Secondly, it is not true because if the sixth forms of schools are going to be drained of their best pupils, especially at a time of falling rolls, it will be very bad indeed for the children. It is true that the Government have laid down that a child may not take advantage of this scheme at 16 without the permission of the local education authority. So far as it goes, that is a good thing; and there are other good things in these regulations. For one, I welcome the commitment to helping children to music schools and to ballet schools, which was a commitment given at a previous stage by the Government. But this is about the permission of the local education authority.
On the face of it, it looks just an invitation to educational chaos throughout the country. As the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham, said, it is true that the Government now say, "Well, maybe the agreement of the local education authority won't be necessary if we don't agree with it". Let us see. It seems almost impossible that the Government could behave like that, but after the Local Government Bill I suppose they could behave in any dictatorial way they want to local authorities. But if it goes on the way it is meant to, it will certainly cause chaos. Some Labour-controlled councils will refuse all applications; some Conservative ones presumably will accept as many as possible, for exactly the opposite reason. In fact only the quite fast-growing number of Liberal local education authorities look as though they will be treating the matter on

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its merits—although that, of course, should occasion no surprise.
That we should be seriously contemplating such a dog's dinner shows how absurd are the efforts to use education as a counter in the ideological game. And I may say that the Government are not the only guilty ones. The destruction of the direct grant schools was just as ideological and, in addition, it widened and deepened the chasm between the independent and the state sectors. There was a time when the education of this country was, if not a seamless garment, at least a coherent spectrum and there were people of goodwill of all parties prepared and able to work together across that spectrum. We had a couple of very good Government reports—the Donaldson Reports—at that time, which spelt out ways in which we could have gone forward, and the Liberal Party for one was prepared to do so.
But, the divisive policies of the adversary politics of this country, the pandering to the extremes of the supporters of each party, and the successive reigns of Secretaries of State—some of whom, with honourable exceptions, knew nothing about the subject—have widened a crack between the two sectors into a chasm so that it has now become literally impossible to see how that chasm can be bridged. However, this is not the way to bridge it, because this is a way which is harmful to schools and to the morale of teachers, parents and children, harmful to the morale of all who are trying to make the state sector work. It is, without any doubt, divisive. It may be of worth to some children, but it will be harmful to many more. It is a misuse of money in a field which needs much more, particularly when it has to prepare children for the type of world that they will go out to in the next few years. It is a folly and I invite your Lordships to reject it.
3.42 p.m.
Lord JAMES of RUSHOLME: My Lords, I have said so much about this subject at various hours of the day and night that I am reluctant to say any more. Indeed, I did not think that it would really be necessary because I thought that, after reflection and when seeing what in fact was actually proposed
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by this measure, a larger number of noble Lords than seems to be the case would have come to the conclusion that, although it was not perfect, this proposal did at any rate go some way towards meeting what so many of us have as a great objective—and that is, the enlargement of opportunity. I took the view that, by this time and with thought one would see—even if one was not going all the way, even if one did not like it as well as the direct grant system which unfortunately was so ruthlessly butchered—that there was something to be said for it in spite of the objections. I think that I was over-optimistic in believing that rationality would triumph over doctrinaire belief to that extent.
Some of the objections have been answered by simply looking at the list of schools. The first objection has been dealt with by the noble Baroness and that was that the distribution of schools was too uneven. That criticism was indeed one of the weaknesses of the direct grant system. If we look at the list of schools and examine it we find that, so far as possible, that weakness has been overcome. A second objection—and it has been brought up this afternoon, although not quite in the same words—is that these are measures to bolster ailing independent schools. If we look at the list we find, as the noble Baroness said, that the greater part consists of the former direct grant schools enriched by some voluntary aided schools that had been forced into unwilling independence. But we also see that they have been enriched by some schools that have always been independent and which, so far from being ailing, are acknowledged as being among the great schools of this country.
But, of course, those are not the fundamental objections, they are not the weighty ones. The weighty objections have been put forward with great force, at any rate by implication, by the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham, as one would expect. Is not this scheme an admission of failure as regards the maintained sector? Will it not lead to loss of morale in the schools within that sector? Is not the answer to make all our schools capable of educating the ablest children? The answer to the last question is quite bluntly, no, it is not, because it is impossible and it is disingenuous to pretend that it is anything else but impossible.

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We all know only too well that in some subjects there is such a shortage of properly qualified teachers that it is difficult to teach up to O-level, let alone to stretch the abilities of the minority. We know, too, that this situation is likely to persist for the foreseeable future. We also know that there is insufficient demand for some valuable subjects, so that it is simply economic nonsense to provide them everywhere. There is a point where idealism simply becomes wishful thinking, where admirable aspirations degenerate into disingenuity, and that point has been passed when we speak as if by waving a wand we should enable every school to teach advanced mathematics or advanced physics or Greek. Teachers capable of teaching those things are so limited in numbers that the only sensible course is to take the children to them, and that is what this scheme proposes.
However, the difficult question is why they must go to independent schools. Here, of course, there is great confusion. The schools on the list of participating schools are not there primarily because they are independent: they are there because they are academically very good. The tragic aspect is that until the last few years the majority of those schools were not on a list of independent schools at all—they were not independent, they were driven into independence.
I hold no brief for independent schools as such. I was educated in the maintained sector. One of the bitterest days in my life was when Manchester Grammar School, after I had ceased to be headmaster of it but with my knowledge and approval, had to go independent. I do not defend the independent schools because they are independent, but if we destroy the direct grant system, if we actually make it illegal to choose children on grounds of intellectual ability, then we make it inevitable that it will be more difficult for the state sector to acquire the staffs and the expertise to educate the most able children. But, in any case, if a maintained school can educate those children in any field, then there is absolutely nothing in these measures to stop it. Indeed, if transfer occurs at the sixth form stage the permission of the local authority, as we have been told, is required.
I could justify these proposals in terms
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of national need and economic necessity. Great fun was made of the idea that this was a national necessity and so on. By gum! it is. If we believe in education, if we believe in the future of this country depending on the abilities of our citizens, then something like this is a question of national necessity and this is not an occasion for making slightly facetious remarks about it. We could justify it in terms of economic and national necessity, and we must, for we dare not neglect the development of the abilities of our most able and gifted children.
However, I would not ask noble Lords to justify the scheme simply on those grounds. I would ask them to think, not of economies and still less of this kind of school or that kind of school—of labels—but rather of the individual child and his or her development. I still have sufficient faith in the profession to which I once belonged to believe that most heads will not think in terms of prestige or whether the transfer of a child is a reflection on their school; but, rather, they will try to give an honest answer to the question: "Has this school—if you like, my school—the teaching capacity to give that particular child the intellectual stimulus that he or she needs and deserves?". If the answer is "yes" and there are a number of maintained schools where this will still be true—well and good. But if the answer is "no", then these proposals are a way—perhaps not the best way, but a way—to provide those opportunities, whatever may be the social or the economic circumstances of the parents.
These regulations may not be the perfect answer. They may well be modified in the light of experience. But I am sure that the principle that they embody, the principle of finding the appropriate education for each child, is the right one. In the name of national need, of educational common sense, but above all of social justice, I hope that your Lordships will welcome them.
3.52 p.m.
Baroness BACON: My Lords, after the brilliantly devastating speech made by my noble friend Lord Stewart of Fulham there is very little left to add from these Benches. I have listened with interest to the speech which we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord James, whom

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on most subjects other than education I can call my noble friend Lord James. He reminded us, if we needed any reminding, that he was headmaster of Manchester Grammar School, and he also reminded us that it was a very good school; and it was a very good school. But we must remember that Manchester Grammar School has the cream of practically every school in the county of Lancashire, so it ought to have been a very good school, and it was. All the best children from practically every school, not only in Manchester but in the surrounding area of Lancashire, went to Manchester Grammar School.
These regulations deal with details; but, as usual, when we pass Acts of Parliament we pass principles, and then we are asked to leave the details to orders which will come at some subsequent time. Then we receive a booklet of orders which we cannot amend in any way. We cannot amend any of the details; we have either to take the whole thing as it stands or reject it as it stands. I hope that we shall reject these regulations as they stand.
Today, what we are discussing must, in effect, be the principle because we have to vote on these regulations and not on each particular detail within them. I find these regulations most objectionable, and that view is shared by practically every educational body in this country, by nearly every teachers' organisation and every educational organisation. Very often educational bodies are at daggers drawn on many matters, but I think that they are more united on this than I have known them to be on any other educational subject.
By these regulations we are ensuring that public money is to be spent on selected children—and I underline "selected" children—in so-called superior schools. What will this do? First, the idea that there are some superior schools devalues state education. Secondly, it will cream off some of the most able children from our state schools, and will institute a very superior selective system at a time when most educational authorities either have got rid of or are in the process of getting rid of the iniquitous 11-plus selection. But we are to have some super-selection, and although the
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11-plus was never fair, this will be even less fair because this selection will be carried out, not by the schools which the children are leaving, but by the schools to which they are going. Also, it will be very uneven throughout the country.
It may be that among your Lordships there are many who agree with this, but even those who agree with it would surely not say that this is the time to bring in such regulations. We are told that even at this very moment the Cabinet is sitting in order to try to find new economies; and we were told by Mr. Carlisle, the Secretary of State for Education, at the weekend that education must take its share of these economies. At a time of cuts in education surely we should not be spending millions of pounds to put these regulations into operation. The Cabinet is looking round desperately for economies and savings, so if we do not pass these regulations their deliberations might not take so long.
It has been said that these regulations will benefit the poorer children, but if we look at the scales that are set down in the regulations we see that a man with a wife and two children, earning about £11,000 a year, can still be helped to send his children to private schools. As I say, we are concerned with all the regulations, but I want to pinpoint just one part of them, for I am particularly concerned about what will happen to the sixth forms in maintained schools. The Government say that many sixth forms in local authority schools are not viable or cannot provide certain subjects; they do not have the staff to provide certain subjects.
The Government say that the solution is to transfer some children from the maintained schools to the independent schools at the age of 16. Surely this will make the sixth forms in the state schools less viable and smaller. Surely that is what will happen—they wilt be much less viable if these children are creamed off into the independent sector. We must remember that by creaming off children at the age of 11 from the state schools into the independent schools, we are taking potential sixth formers into the independent schools at the age of 11. Thus, the state schools will be robbed of the kind of pupils who will go into the sixth forms. How much better it would be to spend this money on local

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authority sixth forms in order to make them more viable.
We are told that this will cost between £50 million and £60 million in a few years' time. Let us think what could be done in the state system in the sixth forms with that £50 million or £60 million. The part of the regulations that deals with sixth forms is rather vague. I am not sure how they will be chosen. I am not sure what the financial arrangements will be. Is it going to be left to the parent to say, "I wish my child in the sixth form to go to an independent school and I am willing to pay whatever it is I have to pay", or will they just be chosen by ability, or what? We have not been told many details about this.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, when she moved this order this afternoon, stressed that the local education authority can withhold consent; but in another place, on 29th October, her right honourable friend Mr. Carlisle made a veiled threat to local authorities if they did withhold consent for sixth formers to go from the state schools to independent schools. He said:
"I have taken no reserve powers but if local education authorities choose irrespective of the educational merit of individual children, to take a blanket decision to refuse to allow children to move, even though the authorities are unable to provide opportunities … I may have to consider taking reserve powers".—[Official Report, Commons, col. 629.]
Now I am not sure quite how far the local authorities are going to have the right to refuse the transfer of their sixth formers from their schools to the independent schools.
I am absolutely against this order as it stands, not just the details of the order. I believe it is wrong in principle, and I believe that at this time the money could be better spent on equipment and staff to provide viable sixth forms in local authorities' schools; and if the Cabinet is this week seeking to find more economies then I suggest that the No. 1 economy that they could make is to take this order back and scrap the whole thing.
4.2 p.m.
Lord ALEXANDER of POTTERHILL: My Lords, it is tempting to go back to the debate on the Education Act 1980. I do not propose to do so, although I
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gather that that is the trend of the present debate. In my simplicity, I thought the issue of principle as to whether there was to be a scheme of this kind had been settled when the Education Act was passed by your Lordships' House. I would therefore merely like to ask one question. As I understood the noble Minister, she said there would be a requirement of three years' residence in the case of normal residents, but not in the case of the children of migrant workers. If I understood correctly, this would seem to suggest that the children of migrantworkers from Europe are in a more favourable position than children normally resident in this country. I should be very grateful if that could be clarified later.
4.3 p.m.
Lord GLENAMARA: My Lords, I could not let these regulations go without expressing my disgust at them. This scheme at any time would be educationally indefensible and socially divisive, but coming as it does in present circumstances it is a monstrous misdirection of valuable scarce resources, and it is on those three points that I want to say a brief word. First, I call attention to the circumstances in which the regulations are being introduced. The Government have been in office for a year and a half. By their rigid adherence to an untenable economic policy they are slowly strangling British industry.
Several noble Lords: Hear, hear.
Lord GLENAMARA: The manufacturing base of our industry is contracting at an alarming rate. Unemployment is over 2 million and on the way up to 3 million. There are widespread closures of factories and plant, very often in our most efficient, biggest industries. And for good measure the Government are flogging—and that is the right word—valuable national assets. They are eating the seed corn. If this Government left office today, I believe it would take a decade for the economy to recover. If they stay in office for their full term, the economy may well never recover.
Not content with strangling the economy, this Government are also inflicting great damage on the social services, and probably most of all on the education system. Tens of thousands of teachers

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are unemployed, after a long and expensive training, and others are being put out of work every month. Schools are denuded of teaching material, especially books. The most mean, petty, contemptible cuts are being made in meals, milk and school transport. Now we are told that even more horrific cuts are being planned.
My Lords, it is in the context of what is being done to the economy and the social services that this squalid little scheme is being introduced. It is a scheme to give assisted places in private schools—as I prefer to call them, not independent schools—for initially 5,500 children, building up to 35,000 children, of parents whose incomes go up to £11,000, although there is some help above that, with provision for giving assistance with meals, uniform and transport, as my noble friend on the Front Bench has said, on more generous terms than for children in the maintained schools. This is to cost £3 million this year, rising to something like £50 million in six or seven years' time. So the most mean, miserable, degrading cuts are being made in the education system in the year in which this scheme is being introduced. My Lords, it would be difficult to find a more inappropriate scheme to introduce in the conditions created by the Government's policy. So that is the context.
Secondly, it is socially divisive. May I say that I started my career teaching in a primary school in a mining village in the North-East of England, so I know about the 11-plus and the effect that that had on communities. Most local education authorities, whatever their politics, over the last few years have got rid of the 11-plus by introducing the common secondary school; but, of course, this is a device that well-to-do people have always had—Eton and Harrow are two of the best comprehensive schools in the country. Here are this Government bringing it back again, only in a worse form than it was previously, because this time it is voluntary.
In Newcastle, a small city, the city which I represented for 25 years in another place, five independent schools are going to participate. Apart from the shadow that this is going to cast over the primary school teaching, way back to the infant school—and it will do that—it is going to divide 11-year-olds once more into passes and failures. Of course they are nothing
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of the sort, but that is how they will come to be regarded in the community, in the streets from which the children go to school. If British society is ever to lose the snobbish divisiveness which defaces it at present, it must end the divisiveness in the education system. There are two major causes of this divisiveness. The 11-plus was one of them, which we all hoped and believed we had got rid of. So this scheme is socially divisive.
Thirdly, my Lords, it is educationally indefensible. There are so many reasons for saying this. Let me mention one or two. First, it is based on the utterly false assumption that education in the private schools is better than that in the maintained schools; that it is more academic, whatever that may mean. Anybody who has looked at the recent statistical evidence on examination results will know that this assumption is utter nonsense. It does not bear examination now. It may have done at one time; it certainly does not today.
Again, this is going to do very great harm, I believe, to the county schools. Let us please remember that we have no state schools in this country; they are all county schools. I repeat, it will do great harm to the county schools. Imagine the effect in Newcastle, which I have mentioned, where five private schools are going to cream off the most able children from the county schools.
Of course the private schools want this scheme because in recent years, with the present inflation rate, the main criterion for admission to a private school is the length of the parents' purse. For some time it has had little to do with ability. The influx of abler children into private schools of course will boost their examination results and boost their university admissions, but the converse is that in all the county schools in Newcastle and elsewhere where this scheme operates the examination results will be depressed, and university admissions will be depressed. That will be the effect on the county schools.
Again, a major part of the case for the comprehensive school is that it is big enough in size and ability range to provide a wide variety of courses—indeed, a course tailor-made to suit each child. If its most able children are removed it

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may not in many cases be able to do this. I can well imagine that many minority interest subjects will disappear from the curricula of the comprehensive schools.
In addition to the effect on the viability of courses, it is a well known principle of education that children learn a great deal from each other; in fact, I sometimes think more than they do from their teachers. Just imagine the effects, again in Newcastle: the demoralising, deadening, depressed effect of siphoning off all the really bright children from those forms in those county secondary schools. For all these reasons this is a thoroughly had scheme. It is socially regressive; it is educationally indefensible. But to introduce it at this point in time displays elitism and an insensitivity which, my Lords, beggars description.
4.13 p.m.
Lord GARNER: My Lords, at the outset perhaps I should declare an interest because I happen to be chairman of the governing body of one of the independent schools which has been invited to participate in the scheme. The school has been independent since 1565, and, since the point has been raised, we see no particular benefit from our own purely selfish point of view in participating in the scheme, and I shall have no axe to grind on behalf of the school in what I say this afternoon. I merely want to make two points about the regulations under the scheme. First, independent schools are being put on the spot, for reasons which I shall mention, by being invited to participate; secondly, if these regulations are approved and the scheme comes about, I hope that it may be only the beginning and that it will be developed in ways that will make it more generally acceptable.
I say that independent schools are being put in an unfair position, because it seems to me that education has for far too long been the plaything of politics, with most harmful results. It seems, especially following the lines of the debate this afternoon, that this was never more so than with the scheme in front of us today. Whatever its merits—and indeed there are many—the fact is that it is resisted by the Opposition and has become a subject of controvery. Therefore, the
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independent schools which have been invited to participate run the risk of being regarded as supporters of one political party if they participate, or supporters of another political party if they refuse to participate.
Like many of us on the Cross-Benches, independent schools on the whole prefer not to be put in such an embarrassing position. I think that both parties are responsible for this unfortunate state of affairs. The Government scheme in front of us today, as speakers from the Oppostion Benches have not hesitated to point out with some colour, is largely irrelevant to the current needs of the day and is particularly difficult at a time when so many sacrifices are being called for in the rest of the educational sphere.
The main need today is to bring about closer collaboration and understanding between the two sectors in our educational world. They should complement each other and not confront each other. The present scheme, far from achieving that at present, although it is my hope that it will be able to do so eventually, is in fact widening the gap because it is leading to the complaints that we have heard this afternoon that it tends to regard public education as a second-class citizen and may lead to creaming off the best students for the independent schools.
That is on the one side, but none of this seems to me to excuse the attitude of the Labour Party towards this problem. They have always expressed a degree of hostility towards the independent schools, and I think by their destruction of the direct grant system were largely responsible for the scheme that has been put before us today. They have now, in what to me seems rather an extraordinary action, informed independent schools who have been invited to participate that if a Labour Government are returned to power they will end the scheme within the same academic year in which that Government are returned to power. I find it difficult to believe this because it would leave the children high and dry in the middle of their course, but nevertheless the financial consequences are obviously a factor which schools have to weigh very seriously in considering their participation.
So much for the general background. On the regulations themselves, I would

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not wish in any way to oppose them. I am concerned at some of them. Some of them seem to contain pretty wide powers; notably paragraphs 22, 23, and 24 dealing with the returns, accounts, and employment of teachers. I know we have received assurances that they would be interpreted reasonably, and no doubt this will be so, but of course one can never count on the unforeseen Secretary of State in several years' time who may not be so reasonable. I am also a little worried by what I would call the bureaucratisation of this scheme. No doubt that is inevitable, but it is a complicated scheme and will throw a heavy burden of extra work on the Government, on officialdom, on local authorities, and of course on all participating schools.
In conclusion, I would simply say that the scheme could serve some important aims: first, of providing a wider range of opportunities for able children; secondly, of assisting the independent schools in their perfectly genuine and often expressed wish to broaden socially their intake; and thirdly, of bringing about a greater degree of co-operation between the two systems operating in the country. The aim must surely he to find ways for children to benefit in the independent schools from those parts of life which genuinely complement opportunities in the maintained schools, so that the children can enjoy those opportunities regardless of parental income.
I would end with two suggestions which, if they could be developed in future, would help to make the scheme more acceptable. The first is that the scheme should enable education to be provided which is demonstrably not available in the maintained sector. There are various ways in which this could be done. The most important one I think is in boarding, which at the moment, as has been explained, is excluded from Government aid, although a number of independent schools if they accept pupils under the scheme and take them in as boarders would themselves make the necessary contribution for the boarding side. If boarding could be included it would help not only those families—and there are genuine cases—where children need to be kept away from home, possibly because the parents are serving abroad or for other reasons, but also those families in remote
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areas where no schools of comparable quality are available. Opportunities for the brighter child could be provided which could not otherwise be provided.
Further, I should have thought that wider opportunities might be given for the sixth form entry. At present, although provision is made for it, it is quite strictly limited, although it is perhaps the most fruitful area for future co-operation between the maintained and independent sector. If the scheme can be developed along these lines and in other ways, I shall then be more hopeful that it can play a constructive part and perhaps help to lessen the divide which unfortunately exists between the two nations at present in our country.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, it is amazing to think that at this moment in history one can drive a motor-car through a city and see an advertisement for baked beans which is half the size of the area of the Throne, suggesting that kids collect the labels and so forth to help their school get books. What a wonderful comment on the sort of civilisation in which we are beginning to live! For the life of me, I cannot understand why all this nonsense is being introduced; it is reactionary, astounding, and is trying to put the clock back. What is more, this measure is badly put together, and therefore I want an explanation of paragraph 4.—(2), which says:
"The child referred to in paragraph 1(b) is one who is resident in the British Islands on the relevant date and is the child of a national of a member state of the European Community who"—
here comes the vagueness—

(a) where he is employed on the relevant date, is then in employment in the British Islands, or

(b) where he is not employed on that date (by reason of retirement or otherwise), was last employed in such employment".

Are we opening this avenue for nationals of a member state of the European Community? That is not clear and I want to know what that provision means. I may be completely wrong in my interpretation of it, but we and the public are entitled to know precisely what it means.
I hate snobbery. I spent many years of my life teaching every type, including the children of miners, and let us not forget that many judges, surgeons and

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even Members of your Lordships' House can say their fathers were miners. Many of them were taught in ordinary schools. Many people who talk about teaching do not understand the magnificent tool that education is in the hands of a great teacher. Teaching is one of the greatest professions, especially when one considers what a teacher can do for a child. A poem was once written about it which went someting like this:
"Raise your derricks, then harvest the fen; But God in mercy be kind to me, for I made men".
When teaching a child of, say, 11 one need not be able to do calculus and tricky mathematical problems or analyse or talk about nuclear physics. One must build in that child a spiritual purpose and eminence and fill it with the mystery of existence and the joy of achievement. A lot of snobbish background is not required.
My fear is that the purpose of this measure is to maintain the division of society into two classes. This is a system for the well-to-do. Any true Conservatives who in the early days had to fight some of their own people to get a decent education system should agree to send the measure back to be improved. I am not objecting to better opportunities, but let us be realistic at this point in history when kids are collecting scrap paper to help their schools. In my district I have them knocking at my door asking, "Do you have any old newspapers?" and when I ask, "What for?" they answer, "To sell so the school can get books". Look what has happened to a nation whose workers and children of workers fought in two world wars. Considering all the wonderful verbiage about education, look what we have descended to. This scheme is a disgrace to the Conservative Party.
4.25 p.m.
Viscount ECCLES: My Lords, I had not intended to speak because I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, that the principle of this was decided when the Bill was before us and I did not have any useful comments to make on the details of the order which is before the House. However, it seems to me that the arguments of the Opposition on the financial side need answering.
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Twenty-five years ago when I became responsible for education there were a great many children who did not have a secondary school, and therefore we undertook a large rural secondary school building programme, and, little by little, every child in the country had a secondary school place. At that time we really believed—and all the teachers were with us—that it was only a matter of going along that road and we should be able to raise the standards of the maintained system so close to at least the average of the independent system that on educational grounds parents would not be tempted to find the fees for the independent system. That was our objective and we honestly thought we could achieve it, but it has been defeated for two reasons.
The first and foremost reason is money. We had no conception of the way in which the cost of the maintained system would rise. I remember being told by Sir Otto Clarke, a senior Treasury official, that he would cut his, and possibly my, throat if the education budget passed £1,000 million. It is now almost £9,000 million and if noble Lords care to make some calculation of what it would cost—I only wish we could do it—to improve the sixth forms of all the maintained schools in the country so that the problem with which we are trying to deal in the Bill did not exist, they would find that it ran into thousands of millions of pounds. That is the first reason why our hopes were defeated.
The second reason is the competition for graduate manpower. We thought we would be able to recruit all the graduate teachers who would be needed to cater for the considerable number of children; I am not sure of the exact figure, but it is something like 800,000 in sixth forms today. That prospect appeared fairly good in the early 'fifties, but, as noble Lords know, all kinds of other forms of employment have attracted male and female graduates, and it has not been possible, for one reason or another, to recruit and keep the required number of teachers capable of teaching to A-level.
In those two circumstances, where there is nothing like enough money quickly to bring the maintained system to where we all want it to be and where there are nothing like enough graduates willing to enter the maintained system as teachers, what do we do? Do we do nothing on

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ideological grounds that it would be wrong to select a few and give them an additional advantage? Let us consider the figures again. Anyone listening to noble Lords opposite would think that this was an enormous slice of the education budget.
First, let us take the numbers—I think that 5,000 boys and girls was the number mentioned. Well, how many children are there in sixth forms in Newcastle? The noble Lord opposite will correct me if I am wrong, since he knows the real figures, but let us suppose that Newcastle represents one per cent. of the United Kingdom. That would mean that 50 children in Newcastle would be creamed off if they had their share, which I hope they will. Does the noble Lord really think, bearing in mind all the secondary schools in Newcastle and district, that creaming off 50 children would demoralise the hundreds and hundreds who would be left? I doubt that.
However, in my opinion, the Government would be wise to ask the local authorities—and this is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Garner—to be very sure that the children who are selected have need of a kind of education that they really cannot get anywhere near their home. The obvious example is music, and I imagine that all noble Lords are happy that there is going to be a wider selection for the five music colleges and colleges of dancing. Obviously one could not have high grade music and dancing instruction in all the comprehensive schools; everybody would agree about that.
When one goes on from music as a special subject and asks what other special subjects there are for which it is impossible to have adequate teachers in all the sixth forms, one comes to many subjects, especially difficult languages and so on. Of course I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Garner, about the point regarding boarding. I asked Mr. Khruschev why they have boarding schools in Soviet Russia. He made rather a silly answer, but he was a very funny man. He said, "Because we want to get rid of the little dears for nine months in the year"—
Lord KALDOR: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for giving way. He
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is making out a case, is he not? for the élite school, such as the école normale in France, or similar institutions in Soviet Russia, presumably—I am not familiar with their system. But surely our private schools are not élite schools. If your parents are rich enough, you can be as dud-ish as you like; and they are full of rich duds. I am sorry, I must not interrupt the noble Viscount for too long. I want to say just one more thing. It shows a certain lack of confidence on the part of the ruling classes of this country if they feel that the only way that they can prevent this decadence from being progressive is by ensuring, as the Turks did, that the élite class, the top class, is constantly renewed in this sort of way.
Viscount ECCLES: My Lords, I think I am right in saying—the noble Lord will quickly correct me if I am wrong—that the noble Lord, Lord Kaldor, has not read the list of the independent schools that have been selected for the places. Had he read the list, he would have seen that some of the élite schools popping out of his head are not on it, and that in fact that list, which represents only a fraction of all the independent schools, has been carefully drawn for the reason that the examination record of the schools is far better than the average of the maintained system.
The noble Baroness opposite was quite right in saying that some comprehensive schools have the most admirable examination record. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about the list of schools that are to receive the pupils in question—and there are not very many, only 5,000 in the whole country—and about whether we could draw up a list of schools where the present prospects of attaining O- and A-levels are much better than the average in the system as a whole. And of course that is what is being done.
Now I come back to the main question. If we are in overall financial difficulty let us consider what this £3 million represents. It represents 0·003 per cent of the budget. Is that very alarming? That is all it is. Is it worth spending that small amount of money to do a little—far less than we ought to do—to take certain children whose needs differ from the average and place them where those needs can be met? I regret that we have to do it. If your Lordships can find £5,000 million more a

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year for the education budget, you will not have to do it, but if you cannot, you must do something for some of those whose need is very obvious.
4.36 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, as always we have had a very strenuous and interesting debate on this scheme. It has reminded me very much of the hours and the days that we spent in discussing the 1980 Education Act. First, I should like to thank in particular the noble Lord, Lord James of Rusholme, for, as always, a most thoughtful speech, based on a lifetime of experience of teaching in the type of school that we are talking about. I should also like to thank my noble friend Lord Eccles for his most helpful remarks, based on his long experience of education and in particular on the fact that he is a former Minister of Education. I wish to thank, too, the noble Lord, Lord Garner, who spoke most thoughtfully and referred to some of the hesitations felt by those schools that have decided to join the scheme.
I do not intend to follow the noble Lord, Lord Stewart of Fulham, nor indeed his noble friend Lord Glenamara, entirely down the path of party politics, on which they opened the debate from their side. I am in the happy position of being able to be very generous today. After all, it must be such a change for noble Lords opposite to be able to take their minds off the problems of the Labour Party leadership, and so I can give them a little bit of fun at my expense—
Several noble Lords: Oh!
Baroness YOUNG: I am sure that noble Lords are not really going to be upset by remarks of this nature, and, as I say, I am in a very forgiving mood this afternoon. I shall of course return later in my remarks to the detailed points made by the noble Lords. As for the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, I must say to him that I really was surprised that he should have made such an illiberal speech. I should have thought that above all the Liberal Party recognises the right of parents, having paid their rates and taxes, to pay for their children's education should they so wish. The implication that there was something
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wrong with independent schools was, I thought, rather unusual coming from a Liberal speaker. But in the course of his remarks the noble Lord said that he had supported the direct grant schools, and of course the fact that they were wound up provided the reason why we felt it necessary to introduce the assisted places scheme at this point. I regretted that the noble Lord took the particular view that he mentioned.
However, on two general points I would say that, whatever may or may not be said about selection in education, it is worth bearing in mind as a very serious point that the great debate in education which was raised by the last Labour Prime Minister, Mr. Callaghan, came about not when there was selection, but when selection had ceased. It arose not from some dyed-in-the-wool old Tory, who might well have complained about comprehensive schools, but from the Labour Party itself. That fact at least must cause someone to ask some questions about what is happening in some schools today.
This is a very serious point. We need to consider the position of the type of able children, especially those from inner city areas, who benefited so much from the direct grant schools and former grammar schools, and who are now obliged to be in the neighbourhood comprehensive, which might not be as good as comprehensives in other areas, in particular some comprehensives in the shire counties. Those children are therefore at a disadvantage, and I believe that we need to ponder very deeply this important educational point.
I would say to the House that when the direct grant schools scheme was phased out almost every Peer who spoke on that occasion in your Lordships' House regretted this action. They were excellent schools, and they served a number of children who do not get the same kind of education today. I think it is an ironic fact that in winding up the direct grant schools the former Labour Government succeeded in creating, in the space of a few years, more independent schools than had been created at any stage, almost, in our educational system.
A number of quite specific points have been made, and I shall now try to answer

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them. The first one was the great point about creaming off. Perhaps it would be as well to remind the House what I said about entry into sixth forms. We have said that because there was—and we appreciate it—a real fear on the part of local education authorities that maintained schools sixth forms would be denuded of their most able pupils, the numbers eligible for entry into the sixth form would be 900 in the first year. That is a total of 900 pupils from 104 local education authorities. I think it will be seen that that works out at approximately nine pupils per local education authority, and under those circumstances I think it is very difficult to argue that this will be a creaming off. I feel confident myself that as the scheme comes into operation there will be the professional co-operation among the schools and the assisted places scheme themselves, those responsible in local education authorities and teachers about the working of the scheme; because, after all, the scheme—and it is worth repeating this—is about children.
Perhaps I could make one other point in that connection. I forget which noble Lord it was (I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont) who said that when my right honourable friend the Secretary of State was speaking he said the scheme was not to support the schools or the teachers. That, of course, is perfectly true; it is to support the pupils. One of the most extraordinary facts in the educational world today is that although the total school population is falling, and falling rapidly, there has been an increase of 10 per cent. in the number of pupils going to independent schools. If there is one thing which is quite clear, it is that the schools do not need the assisted places scheme—they will get on perfectly well, thank you very much. The scheme, therefore, is designed to help the pupils, not the other way round, and I think it is very important for everybody to recognise that fact. The noble Baroness, Lady Bacon, asked how the pupils will be selected. The pupils will in fact be selected by the schools themselves.
Baroness BACON: My Lords, I asked particularly about the 16-year-olds.
Baroness YOUNG: Yes, my Lords; it will apply both at 11 years old and at 16 years old. The schools will select
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the pupils, and it will be done in this way. The parents will apply to the school for admission, and the schools will set an examination, or whatever is their appropriate test, for admission to it. We feel that this is the right way to go about the scheme because, after all, the schools know what they can provide, they know what their teaching staff is suited for and they know what will be the appropriate way of choosing.
What we have said—and it is something to which I myself and my colleagues attach very great importance—is that we hope that the schools themselves (and, I hope, the noble Lord, Lord Garner, and his colleagues who are perhaps connected with schools in the assisted places scheme) will make every effort to make the scheme known in their area, I think by way of local advertising and local radio, so that we do not get coming to the schools only those parents who would perhaps have thought of an independent education for their children and who may be just pleased to have this, but so that we widen the catchment area to include those who would not have thought of it at all. Of course, we have undertaken to print an enormous amount of literature about the scheme, which has been sent to local education authorities and to schools, and I hope very much that the schools selected for the assisted places scheme will make known the scheme as widely as possible in the areas in which their schools are situated.
The noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, asked me a specific question about the residence qualification; and so, indeed, did the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek. Regulation 4 provides that to be eligible for the scheme pupils must have been resident in this country for three years; or, if they are the children of EEC nationals employed in this country, they must have been resident in a member state of the European Community for three years. The latter requirement is in conformity with Article 12 of EEC Regulation 1612/68, which requires the same treatment for children of migrant workers from member states as for children born in the United Kingdom.
Lord ALEXANDER of POTTER-HILL: My Lords, perhaps the Minister would be kind enough to forgive me for interrupting her. Is this not more than satisfying the requirement of the EEC,

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as I understand it? The requirement for our children is three years' residence here. Why should it not be three years' residence here for EEC members?
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, my understanding of the position is that the requirement for our children, of course, is that they should have been born to United Kingdom nationals; and in the case of people who come to this country they must be resident here for three years before they qualify, either for this scheme or for student awards, as the noble Lord will be aware. We are bringing our scheme very much into line with the award scheme for higher education.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness—
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, may I answer the second point about that? The position about EEC nationals is that this comes under the Treaty of Rome and they automatically qualify immediately for the same kind of treatment as those born here. There is this distinction between the children of EEC nationals employed here and those coming in from other parts of the world. If I have not made myself quite clear I shall be very happy to write to the noble Lord, but I can assure him that we are not doing more than we should for the EEC. We are bringing our law into line with what is required by the Treaty of Rome, and the general principle in the scheme is the same as that which applies to student awards.
Lord ALEXANDER of POTTER-HILL: Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister. It is because T doubt whether the provision has not gone beyond that requirement that I raise the question. As I understand it, the requirement of the Treaty of Rome is that the children of EEC nationals coming here should be treated the same as our children, and that, to me, would mean that they were required to be in residence for three years before they qualified for the scheme, which is the requirement for our own children. But I should be perfectly happy to leave it to be looked at again.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I will certainly write to the noble Lord once again setting out the position, and if I
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have in any way misinformed him, of course I shall let him know—but I believe the position to be as I have stated it.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I am so grateful to the noble Baroness, and I apologise for interrupting and thank her for her trouble. I think my interpretation was right, because the net has been spread. I did not know that this question would be raised from another part of the Chamber, but, at the same time as she writes to the noble Lord, would the Minister be kind enough to let me know, after she has had the opportunity and time to look at it carefully? Could I, too, have a letter from her about it?
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I will cretainly copy the letter to the noble Lord. Lord Davies; there is no question about that. I can assure him that we are bringing our legislation into line with the requirements of Article 12 of the EEC regulations, which covers this matter, as we must do.
The noble Lord, Lord Garner, said that it was a complicated scheme, which he regretted. It does, of course—and I recognise this—put quite a responsibility on the schools themselves for the selection of pupils, but I think this is right. I think it would not be right for the Government to do this. They cannot possibly make a judgment from the centre about the needs of the individual pupil and what the schools have to offer, so I think that this is appropriate. I hope very much that the scheme will have the effect that the noble Lord has said he hopes for over the whole question of giving and enlarging opportunities for certain children in our country today.
My Lords, at the end of this debate, I am aware that there is, on a much more serious note, worry and concern about this scheme, and I was asked whether I thought it right to introduce it at this particular moment. The Government believe that it is an important scheme. It raises, I think, very important matters of principle. It is of course true that these are principles on which we are divided; but as long as we have a democratic country we will have independent schools and we will have maintained schools. Whereas it is the job of Ministers—I accept this absolutely—to do the best they can for every child in the maintained system, there are inevitably going to be some gaps in it,

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and I think it is right that we should look for the maximum amount of co-operation and collaboration from the two systems of education. I myself deeply regret that the educational world should be in a kind of state of civil war over children. That is not desirable. It is not good for the children. It is not good for education; it is not good for any of us. We are trying in this way to make it possible for there to be collaboration between the two sectors. The scheme will depend upon the schools talking to the head primary teachers, talking to the local education authorities and, at the professional level, working together in the best interests of the children. I hope that, if we can take as
our stand the need to have a professional look at what is in the best interests of all the nation's children, this scheme will get off to a good start and that, at the end of the day, we shall all agree that it will have helped a large number of the nation's children and thereby enable them to make the best possible contribution they can to our country.
4.51 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Motion be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 135; Not-Contents, 79.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

HIGHWAYS (ROAD HUMPS) BILL
5 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, before we decide whether this Bill should be read a third time this afternoon, I feel that the attention of the House should be called to what happened last week. On Wednesday of last week the Bill was on the Order Paper for Third Reading on Friday. On Thursday, the day before it was due to be debated, it was discovered that it had been postponed until today. I say "it was discovered" because there was no discussion, so far as I am aware, with the noble Lords who had been interested in the Bill. There was not even any advance intimation to noble Lords who were interested. I am quite sure that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, had no intention of being disrespectful to your Lordships but I think that we are entitled to know why this change was made.
Your Lordships will recollect that on Friday our business was finished at about a quarter past 12 so there was plenty of time. All noble Lords concerned with this Bill had already made arrangements to be here on Friday. May I also remind your Lordships that at the Committee stage the noble Earl, Lord Avon, in speaking for the Government, called attention to the fact that if any amendment were adopted the Bill might be lost.
This is a ploy to which we are unfortunately well accustomed as we approach the end of any session. We always resent it—and rightly resent it—unless the Bill is one of transparent urgency. I submit that this Bill is not in that class. I will return to that point in a few minutes, but before doing so may I refer your Lordships to the Second Reading debate, which took place on 23rd July. The noble Viscount, Lord Long, was speaking for the Government on that occasion. He intervened in the debate in which a number of points of detail had been raised. May I read what he said? Your Lordships will find this in column 477 of Hansard. The noble Viscount said:
"I might remind your Lordships that we are a revising Chamber. I hope that this Bill is accepted for Second Reading and that it will go on to Committee stage as does any other Bill that comes before us. I hope that the suspicions may now disappear and that we shall be able to do our work without having to worry about what had

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gone on previously. In other words, we must 'do the corrections'".
A little further on (at col. 479 of Hansard) the noble Viscount, again referring to something that had been said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said:
"Obviously your Lordships in Committee will consider these problems. These matters will need further debate and there is no better time than in Committee".
There is no suggestion there that it would be impossible to accept any amendments, and I venture to suggest that if that had been stated at the time, possibly the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, would have sought to divide the House again at Second Reading as he confessed he was tempted to do. If we had realised that no amendments were going to be considered, we could have taken a very different view about the Bill as a whole.
In any case, does this argument about time really hold water? It is not for us to criticise procedure in another place or indeed to understand it. I would hate to think that if the other place really wanted a Bill like this before the end of the session they could not find time to deal with one or two amendments—or perhaps I should say could not have found time if we had passed the Bill with these amendments on Friday. I admit that the loss of these three days makes a difference at this stage of the session, though I am sure that that cannot have been in anybody's mind when the Third Reading was postponed. I hope not, anyway. I am told that the other place finished their business yesterday at a quite unusually early hour, and I really cannot accept the view that it would have been impossible to find time for this Bill if indeed we had passed some amendments on Friday.
A few minutes ago I said that I did not consider this Bill urgent. May I explain my reason for saying that? As I understand it, the Government have not completed discussions with all the interested parties on the nature of the regulations to be made under the Bill and that is why we can in fact get from the Government very little information as to what the regulations are going to contain. When the discussions are completed the regulations will have to be drafted.
I suggest therefore that, even if the Bill were to be passed today, it would be some time—several months—before the first hump could be raised. Why not therefore let this Bill die and let the Government introduce into the next session a better thought-out Bill? While that Bill is going through this House—and I am suggesting introducing it into this House—discussions can continue. I hope that before the Bill reaches it final stages here the Government will be able to tell us that the discussions are complete, and I hope everything is agreed. Then the Bill can go forward to another place as an agreed measure. I see no reason on earth why it should not pass into law by Easter. Then the first hump can be raised little, if at all, later than the date on which it could be raised if this Bill is passed today.
One final word. If this Bill was to be defeated or, better still, if the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, decided to withdraw it, we would express to him great sympathy. I had the privilege once of piloting a Private Members' Bill through your Lordships' House. I know how much work is involved even when one gets support from the relevant department of Government. If he were to take that course I firmly believe that we would get a better Bill, and that, after all, is the object which the noble Earl and all of us have in common. I will of course listen to what noble Lords have to say, but my present inclination is to vote against the Third Reading of this Bill. I hope that noble Lords from all parts of the House might feel inclined to do the same.
5.8 p.m.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, may I echo briefly the concern expressed by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon? It will be recalled that at the Committee stage I inquired about the passage of this Bill, assuming that your Lordships decided to pass the Bill with amendments, because while it is not an epoch-making Bill, we thought that it would be useful for this Bill to pass. I asked, if the Bill were amended, whether there would still be opportunities for it to pass through the other place or whether that would make the situation very difficult. I also asked whether, if it were passed without amendment, we would have assurances from the Government that the regulations would be satisfactory and the consultations satis-

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factory to meet some of the points made in the amendments. I had tabled five amendments, at least two of which believe would have greatly improved the Bill regarding its administration.
It was with some surprise that I found that the Bill was not due to be considered on Friday as originally arranged. I must ask the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and also the Minister, for an explanation. If it means that this House has lost two or three days when amendments could have been made, and they could have been raised in the other place, then I should have thought, putting it colloquially—and I will not say that I was deceived—that I was given the wrong impression regarding my opportunity to put my amendments which I withdrew in order to get this Bill through at Committee stage.
If this Bill could have been improved, there is not the slightest doubt that many of your Lordships would have considered some of the improvements. I withdrew my amendments only because of the definite statement of the Minister, and also because of the assurances given that there would be adequate consultations before the regulations were prepared. I should like some assurance from the Minister that if we had not lost these three days there would still have been no opportunity for the amendments to be submitted to the other place.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, first may I say straight away that—
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, may we hear from the Minister?—because before the noble Earl replies to his Motion I should like to say something, but I thought that perhaps the Minister was going to intervene. If the Minister is not going to intervene, may I say that something has happened here that is almost beyond my comprehension. I would not dare to change the business of the House of Lords without consulting the people and the noble Lords whom I knew to be deeply concerned in the business. I have spoken to most of the noble Lords who have taken part in the earlier stages of this Bill, and have not found anybody who was consulted about moving the Third Reading from last Friday until today. Was nobody consulted? Was the Minister consulted? Perhaps we shall be told. I simply would not expect to
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get any further support for a measure which I brought before the House in this manner without any consultation with the people concerned.
We are dealing here not only with the rights of this House to amend Bills and to be a revising Chamber but also with the constitutional duty of this House. This House has a constitutional duty to revise the Bills that come from another place. Early last week it was public knowledge—it was on our Minutes—that Friday would be the day for the Third Reading of this Bill. Nobody is going to tell me that that did not give another place the opportunity to make provision this week, if another place chose, for considering Lords amendments which were expected last Friday to be made to this Bill.
I have been told that special rules apply to Private Members' Bills, but here we are dealing with a Bill which has passed through another place and which was introduced into your Lordships' House with Government support. I cannot believe that any special rules applying to Private Members' Bills apply to a Bill like this in this instance. I really do not think that we ought to give this Bill a Third Reading.
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, I very much hope that your Lordships will give the Bill a Third Reading. First, I should like to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, for what must have seemed to be, and probably was, bad manners on Thursday afternoon. I understand that we did think that the noble Lords concerned with this Bill had been consulted about the change of time from last Friday until today, and it was actually only when the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, himself told me on Thursday afternoon that I was aware of the change. Can I assure your Lordships in all sections of the House—
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, may I ask by whom the noble Lord understood that people were consulted?
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, I think the answer to that, in deference to my noble friend on my left, is the usual channels. The usual channels informed me that my noble friend Lord Kinnoull was going to be in touch with other noble Lords.

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May I now say equally categorically that if we had had this Third Reading at an early hour after lunch on Friday it would have made no difference because the other place, like ourselves, does not plan the business for the forthcoming week until the previous Thursday; so it would have been in two days' time anyway that they would be taking the Third Reading of this Bill into consideration. I should like also to come back to something which I said at Second Reading, and I said it very carefully at col. 1672:
"I cannot at present give any guarantee that time will be made available for consideration of any amendments passed by the Committee today".—[Official Report, 20/10/80.]
That is what I said then and I am afraid it is still true now. I cannot, until the nature of the amendments have been considered, guarantee that the Bill will be given further consideration in another place. That is not to say that it need not be, but I cannot guarantee that it will be.
We have spoken about the question of urgency. This is not an urgent Bill. There is no great hurry about it, but the Government would like to get it on to the statute book as soon as possible. We are not trying to rush your Lordships and what we would like to do, if this Bill should become an Act, is to go on and make some regulations which would be very much in accordance with the wishes expressed by your Lordships at the Report stage and at the Committee stage, as we have debated them. We discussed, for instance, the 30 miles speed limit and restrictions. I have had consultations today with my honourable friend from another place in the Department of Transport, and it has been undertaken that in the first regulations the road humps will be all in restricted areas of 30 miles an hour or under. I am happy to give your Lordships that assurance today.
The other thing I should like to point out on this matter, before I ask your Lordships to support the Third Reading, is that we have been saying: "We have been rushed; we have not had time to discuss amendments". We have in fact discussed quite a lot of amendments and not only have we done that but we have also voted on quite a number of them. When it is said that your Lordships' House is a forum for discussion, we have
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discussed and we have voted. I do not see why your Lordships should feel that you have been badly treated to this degree.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I think the difficulty about voting on amendments is to have hanging over your head the knowledge that if you vote for an amendment you are voting to lose the Bill. I think that certainly influenced the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, and possibly others of his noble friends.
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, I take the noble Viscount's point, but while debating these amendments we have been trying to break them down. I think the noble Viscount would agree that with regard to the larger number we have said, "We think these are for regulations: we have taken on board the points made and will make regulations about them". I have given an undertaking on the 30 mile an hour limit, which was one of the major points in the previous debates. There are one or two amendments—I do not want to anticipate the debate because I know that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, has two amendments down for consideration later—which we think are already incorporated or are in the wrong place or are not quite right; so I do not think there is any amendment which fundamentally the House would have carried. However, the House may have to call me wrong and vote on one of the next four amendments.
5.20 p.m.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH: My Lords, since the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, has joined my name with his opening adress, it would seem appropriate that I should speak now. I can assure your Lordships that I was not consulted at all—perhaps there is no reason why I particularly should have been consulted—with regard to the change of date from Friday to this afternoon. I was, however, informed by my noble friend Lord Avon that the date had been changed. That was while passing through the Division Lobbies late on Thursday. On the other hand, when there was a move earlier last month to change the Committee stage by a couple of days, there were consultations, and I expressed the view to my noble friend Lord Kinnoull that I was not willing to accept the change. But

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it was my understanding that my noble friend the Chief Whip was not able to find another date for that Committee stage, and that in no way would it be altered. It was a matter of some urgency, it had to be slotted into the time previously allotted and no change could be made. I find this whole procedure indicative of the manner in which this Bill has proceeded.
I hope that neither of my noble friends Lord Avon and Lord Kinnoull will take offence, if I say that, in the few years that I have been in your Lordships' House, a Private Member's Bill has never had so much primary attention from a Minister on the Front Bench. It appears to me that it has moved from being a Private Member's Bill to being a Government-sponsored Bill with private members' support. Obviously, the Minute would suggest otherwise. Nevertheless, we have been, as it were, bamboozled a little during the passage of this Bill.
The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, referred to the questions that were raised on Second Reading, when we were sitting in the Royal Gallery, which was rather a difficult time. Perhaps it was at that time that those of us who oppose so much that is in the Bill should have taken more positive steps. My noble friend Lord Avon told us that he said those things at Second Reading, in column 1672 of Hansard, but, in fact, he said them right at the beginning of the Committee stage. That inhibited almost every action on some 23 amendments—bar three—which were put down from both sides of the House. There were Divisions on three of those amendments, but it was certainly under that inhibition that the Bill must go through unamended or it might well be lost.
We have arrived at a somewhat crucial stage this afternoon, where the Minister has given us a categorical assurance that humps will not be constructed in roads which do not have a 30 mph speed limit. We discussed this point at Committee stage on an amendment of mine, which was rather loosely worded. We discussed it again at Report, on an amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. That assurance, which has been given at this late hour, is indicative to me of the manner in which this Bill is being pursued.
There is no doubt in my mind that some
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matters which have been discussed may well be taken on board in regulations, but there are other matters which would be far better contained within the Bill itself. The Bill, as it stands, is far too wide open; indeed, it includes this business of depressions which we have talked about time and time again. It has been said that there is no intention of constructing depressions and the Minister told us—admittedly, out of his brief—and it is in Hansard, that, so far as he is concerned, depresssions are a dead duck. But we are not allowed to remove this part of the Title or the enabling part of the Bill.
Therefore, it is wrong that, because of this threat, we cannot get this Bill into a tidier form which would meet the perfectly legitimate objections of those who are opposed to some clauses, though not perhaps to the principle. I should very much like to have had the department consult those interested parties—and my noble friend Lord Kinnoull said that there were 75 of them—before we debated a tighter Bill. That would be the time for all the interested parties to make their views known to your Lordships, and, indeed, to Members of another place, so that a more informed debate could take place and the Bill could go forward.
I should much prefer my noble friend Lord Kinnoull to withdraw the Bill at this stage. Discussions could then take place—because the subject has been very well aired—and a more acceptable Bill could come before your Lordships' House after the Christmas Recess, and I am sure it would have a very much easier passage. For those reasons, I am very much inclined to support the noble Viscount, Lord Simon.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, as one who took a small part on this Bill in very difficult circumstances in the Royal Gallery and who was not informed at all though I specially stayed overnight in London last Friday in order to take part, I should like to support all that was said earlier by noble Lords. I shall not say what I should have liked to say in a bigger debate, but I want to make the point that, as drafted, this Bill is defective in very many ways. It leaves so very much to the Minister and to regulations that he might make, that I could certainly never support it. But I should like to know why, as the Minister said, the Bill could not go through the other place

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if we passed any amendments. I have been a Member of your Lordships' House for nearly 10 years, and I do not think I have ever before heard any Minister say that if we carried any amendments a Bill would not go through another place. I shall be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, may I ask a question on procedure? I came here to discuss amendments on Third Reading put forward by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, because I feel that I have a contribution to make. But am I not right in saying that some of this discussion is related to the Motion, That the Bill do now pass, and that we might discuss the amendments and then get on with the question of whether or not we want the Bill to pass?
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Ferrier for coming in at that point. But I think, perhaps, as the business managers in this House have been mentioned, that I should say a few words to the House on what has happened. It always is a very difficult matter when Private Members' Bills from another place come up to your Lordships' House so late in the day. I remember times—and I am quite certain that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, remembers times—when it has been suggested to your Lordships' House that to amend a Private Member's Bill might kill it. I have never known that suggestion to be well received in your Lordships' House, and I quite understand why—
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, this Bill did not arrive here late. We had the Second Reading in July.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I understand that both this Bill and the other one which accompanied it were passed on the last Private Members' Day in another place. Therefore, it arrived at the latest time that a Private Member's Bill possibly could arrive. This has happened on previous occasions, and I freely admit that those of your Lordships who supported the Bill, but perhaps thought that it could be put in a slightly better form, have had the very disagreeable knowledge that to put it in slightly better form might impede its progress. Your Lordships are well aware that there are
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many Private Members' Bills in the time of many Governments which are very much supported by those Governments, and this is such a one. The fact of the matter is that if the Bill had been taken on Friday, I am assured that they would have been in no better position in another place than by our taking the Third Reading today. The loss of those two sitting days in this House would not, I am assured, have made any difference to the availability of time in another place.
My noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth said that somehow this Bill had undergone a miraculous change from a Private Member's Bill with Government support to a Government Bill with private Members' support. I am not quite sure whether this really has happened. I think I can assure my noble friend that it is the same animal as it was before. My noble friend also said that your Lordships were inhibited from amending the Bill because of lack of time. I seem to remember that on three separate occasions my noble friend sought to amend the Bill, so this is possibly an accusation that cannot be justified.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, there is not the slightest doubt that quite a number of noble Lords went through the Division Lobbies against the amendment because of the statements made about the possible passage of the Bill in the other place.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, that of course could be true. Did the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, wish to say a word?
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, I wanted only to ask the noble Lord why the other place might not have sat last night as late as your Lordships' House did, to deal with the amendments.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, many of your Lordships have been in another place, which I have not, so probably know better than I the procedures for Private Members' Bills there. However, I understand that Private Members' time is very definitely limited by custom—am I not right? Perhaps other noble Lords know better about that than I.
The point I want to make is that many of your Lordships who are interested in

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the Bill obviously feel that they have been treated discourteously. Nobody could be sorrier about that than I, and I am sure my noble friend Lord Kinnoull will echo this sentiment. Whose job it was to inform noble Lords, I will not go into here. It is a Private Member's Bill, but it has Government support. For my part, I should like to apologise most profusely to noble Lords who feel that they have been treated discourteously. I hope your Lordships will now give the Bill a Third Reading and subsequently discuss the amendments which have been put down to be taken after that Third Reading.
Lord DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, may I say that if we give the Bill a Third Reading I have the feeling that if we then accept any of the amendments the Bill will be lost. We have here a Bill which some noble Lords think is bad, while other noble Lords think it is good. In this House we are being virtually told, whether we like it or not, "Pass this Bill. Do not amend it, or it is lost". I can well remember being told precisely the same thing about a horrible Bill called the Breeding of Dogs Bill and, like a twit, I accepted what I was told. That Bill should have been lost. If noble Lords in this House feel that this Bill should be lost, then they must amend it or reject it.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I think the answer is that if your Lordships feel strongly that the Bill should be amended, the way to express that strength of feeling is when the various amendments come up, not at Third Reading. So I think it would be better to give the Bill a Third Reading and then to discuss the amendments. Of course your Lordships are free to divide on those amendments and if your Lordships so wish, to pass those amendments into the Bill. I cannot give any guarantee as to what the effect of that would be, but it would be infinitely better to do that than to throw out the Bill at Third Reading in protest.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, do we not then divide on, That the Bill do now pass?
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, that is of course another option which is open to your Lordships, but to divide against
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the Motion, That the Bill do now pass?, is a rare occurrence.
Lord FERRIER: After amendment, my Lords.
5.34 p.m.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I suggest that your Lordships are wasting a great deal of very valuable time. The noble Lord the Chief Whip was quite right when he said that there can be no guarantee as to what another place will do with legislation which your Lordships have considered, have amended and sent back for their consideration. On the other hand, some of us in this House who have been concerned with the machinery between the two Houses know that things can be done if it is possible for them to be done. I do not know whether that is so, but I believe that if things can be done the noble Lord, Lord Denham, will find ways to see that your Lordships' views are understood, considered and acted upon by another place.
I suggest that we are wasting our time. The question is whether the Bill should be given a Third Reading and the amendments considered. Whether it is a Government Bill, or a Private Member's Bill, or something which is a bit of each is utterly immaterial. The noble Lord, Lord Denham, was in a sense a little misleading when he suggested that Private Members' time is limited in another place. Of course it is, but once a Private Member's Bill comes here it becomes a Public Bill. One would expect that the machinery of business in another place would treat all Bills in a reasonable way, on the basis that your Lordships' House has taken a view.
Therefore, I say that your Lordships ought to proceed and then look to the Chief Whip and those who are responsible for Government management to see that the Bill, as passed by your Lordships' House, give or take, has a chance of being considered by another place. It would be quite wrong, having spent so much time upon this Bill during its other stages, to vote against its Third Reading. Let us proceed now, consider the amendments and then chase the Chief Whip later on if it is not dealt with in another place.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I hope that it will not be considered to be

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a waste of time if briefly I interrupt the discussion on Third Reading. This is a Private Member's Bill. I accept entire responsibility. It is wholly unfair to blame the Government, or my noble friend, or the Chief Whip. The decision to delay the Third Reading from last Friday until today was taken entirely by myself. In fact, it was taken last Wednesday evening. I very much regret any discourtesy or inconvenience that has been shown inadvertently. I saw the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, and my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth on Thursday evening and we discussed the matter generally then.
I took the decision for an entirely different purpose from that which has been portrayed. I took the decision because I felt that it was more convenient to hold a Third Reading of this Bill, which has already shown a certain contentiousness, on a normal working day. Fridays are not popular days. Even though it was an early day last Friday, it could well not have been. The House considered then the Civil Aviation Bill, which again was contentious. We had had a heavy week, with late nights. Because of the attendance now, I think I have proved my point, for every Member who wished to be here is present.
I did not expect or anticipate a substantial Third Reading debate. In fact, if noble Lords will look at the Companion to the Standing Orders they will see that it is not normally the custom to put down amendments which have already been discussed on a previous occasion. Yet one finds that this has been done today. I do not know whether that is discourtesy to the House. It could be regarded as a wrecking mechanism.
I give to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, to my noble friend and to everybody else who has taken such an interest in the Bill two assurances. I have spoken to my honourable friend who piloted the Bill through another place. First, in his view he had adequate consultations before the Bill was published. He advised all the appropriate bodies and sought their views on the Bill. But one has to remember that this Bill has arisen from five years of experimental work following a report and it is only a small enabling Bill.
Secondly, he advised me that from his Whip's Office the advice he had received
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was that the Bill would be unlikely to have time found for it if the amendment were made. But I am not convinced by that argument, either. I personally would have withdrawn the Bill if I had thought that a substantial amendment was needed; that would have been the right and proper course. But I did not withdraw it. As my noble friend has said, amendments have been pressed, the House has decided on the issues so far and I hope we can now go forward to a Third Reading and the following amendments.
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down I think possibly I ought to put right one thing, as a matter of procedure. There is nothing improper in putting down amendments on Third Reading which have been discussed and then withdrawn at an earlier stage, and I understand that this applies to the amendments put down today. The only thing that would be contrary to the Standing Orders and to the Companion—which gives in more detail the customs of your Lordships' House—would be to put down amendments on Third Reading on which the House has expressed a decision at an earlier stage. I thought it right to put that point to the House because this is sometimes rather a delicate issue.
On Question. Bill read 3a.
Clause 3 [Requirements as to the construction of road humps]:
5.42 p.m.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 3, line 17, at end insert—
(" ( ) Regulations so made may require or permit highway authorities to obtain or receive financial contributions from the owners or occupants of properties adjacent to roads where road humps are to be constructed in order to reduce the expenditure to be incurred by highway authorities for such purposes.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is similar to one which was tabled at an earlier stage but in fact was not moved, and it follows upon the questions raised with regard to expense. Until a few minutes ago it might have been assumed that road humps could be constructed on any kind of road under any kind of circumstance, but, following the absolute assurance given by my noble

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friend Lord Avon, that the regulations will contain restrictions as to the building of humps, it now appears that these will only be built in areas where a 30 mile an hour speed limit is to be operative.
The Earl of AVON: Or less, my Lords.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH: My Lords, I thank my noble friend. It will be 30 miles an hour or less, which of course brings the hump into roadways which are most probably in residential and urban areas. It follows, I think quite reasonably, that it will be for the local authority—the highway authority—to determine where the hump would best serve its purpose. But it also follows that residents or the owners and occupiers of properties in areas which they consider to be dangerous or requiring deterrents other than the speed limit, may press for humps to be constructed. It has always been my contention that a lot of people may very well desire traffic to go down somebody else's street and so make this kind of representation.
It seems to me that under present economic circumstances the highway authority will be hard pressed, first, to do any building at all and, secondly, to meet what are probably legitimate requests. So if the highway authority were empowered to make charges for the service that they are going to provide in those areas that would not be unreasonable. The amendment does not say that they have to; it merely allows them to seek contributions from those people who request, for particular and good reasons, that humps should be constructed. That there may be a net saving to the nation, as it were, by a reduction in accidents does not of course reduce the financial expenditure of the highway authority because there is no (as it were) credit back.
It would also have the advantage, I believe, of making people—groups perhaps—who are pressing for a hump construction to think very carefully as to whether it is worth while in the eventuality of their having to make some kind of contribution. Perhaps when he responds to this amendment my noble friend Lord Kinnoull will give us some further indication as to the costs which might
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devolve upon a highway authority for the construction of a particular stretch of humped road. When we discussed this matter at the last stage I asked a specific question with regard to the costs. I did not get an answer and in fact it was the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who asked whether I had a particular question in mind and I repeated that question (it is in Hansard):" How much is all this going to cost and where will the money come from?" Perhaps in the context of this amendment he will care to give me a reply to that question also. I beg to move.
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, perhaps I may come in here on this amendment generally because I think perhaps I can satisfy my noble friend Lord Lucas by saying that I think that, under Section 60 of the Highways Act 1971, the powers which he wishes are already there. The decision whether or not to install humps on a particular road, under this Bill, rests with the highway authority concerned. As I said at the Committee stage, one of the factors in this decision will of course be the cost, and each authority will have to decide, in the light of the potential cost-effectiveness of the humping proposals (and I spoke to that at some length) and of competing demands on available resources, whether an installation is justified. If humps are likely to be cost-effective in accident prevention, then the community as a whole will benefit and it would be right for the community to pay. This is a principle which is implicit in all existing highway and indeed traffic management legislation, and there is no reason or justification for treating hump installations differently. There could be situations where hump installations would benefit the general community but where some or all the owners and occupiers of adjacent property did not see themselves as receiving benefit; it would seem unreasonable in these circumstances that they should be required to contribute towards the cost of installation.
Here is a point which I hope will answer my noble friend's question. If, on the other hand, a proposed hump installation appeared unlikely to be cost-effective enough to justify its contruction at public expense, and if the owners of frontages on the road concerned wanted humps and were willing to contribute the

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difference between the full cost and the cost justifiable at public expense, the matter could be dealt with under existing highways legislation. Section 60 of the Highways Act 1971 already enables highway authorities to accept contributions to the cost of works they are empowered to undertake from persons benefiting therefrom.
To summarise, therefore, the power the amendment proposes is, we think, unnecessary in as much as it relates to a permissive power for a highway authority to receive contributions from frontagers who benefit from hump installations. In fact the power already exists and, so far as it relates to a requirement that frontagers should always have to contribute, it would be undesirable. Although the amendment itself would produce a simple permissive power for the Minister to include in his regulations provisions relating to financial contributions, the power would never, we think, actually come into force. I shall leave my noble friend Lord Kinnoull to talk about costs. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, he has not answered the specific question posed by my noble friend Lord Lucas as to exactly how much these humps would cost. It must be known to the department because Abbotsbury Road within a borough of London already has—I will not say the benefit of humps; therefore, the department must know.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, perhaps I may answer this point on cost, of which I have been advised. With the experimental humps which were started five years ago the cost came out at £500 a hump, and with inflation and revised prices it is now estimated that the cost would be £700. There would, in addition to that, be the cost of the signs and notices. I hope that that gives an indication of the cost.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Earl for one moment, can he tell us how much it would cost to take them down again?
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I think I need notice of that question.
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Perhaps I could make one point to my noble friend in reply. This amendment goes far outside the permissive power that already exists. The noble Lord probably knew that that power existed anyway. His amendment would allow the highway authority to instruct the residents in the area to provide sums of money to provide a service to the community. I think that would be highly contentious and most irregular, and I am sure the House would not wish to see that happen.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, as a vice-president of the Pedestrians' Association, I am inclined to oppose my noble friend's amendment, on the grounds that not only would the hump benefit the local people but it would also benefit pedestrians in general. When we talk about costs, there are occasions, certainly in other countries, where these humps are used as pedestrian crossings. Therefore, the cost is hard to estimate, if they are going to be not only humps but also pedestrian crossings. I think in general terms, as the Pedestrians' Association figures show, they contribute to a very large fall in accidents at road entries.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I thank the noble Earl the Minister, my noble friend Lord Kinnoull and my noble friend Lord Ferrier for their contributions. On the last point, I would challenge the noble Earl upon these particular figures—but on another occasion, not this evening. All I would say to him is that the essence of road hump building is to reduce the speed or flow of traffic, rather than to aid pedestrian ways as we saw in the pictures in the report.
My noble friend Lord Kinnoull has, yet again, not answered the question. In fact, during the Committee stage, £700 is precisely the figure I put on one hump. I have asked him now on a number of occasions—and I have really now lost interest in the answer because I will put my own figure on it—the cost of humping a stretch of road; that is, for the planning inquiry, the building, the lighting, the signing and the maintenance. My guess is that it would probably come out at about £30,000 per 800-metre stretch of road. I do not think anybody is likely to contest that figure this evening; I hope they do not, because we can go into it on

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another day. It is not going to be helpful I fear. I am quite happy to accept the Minister's assurance that there is already existing provision for the recovery of some parts of monies for road construction works where there is not a full and total cost-benefit to the community but where such construction is undertaken at the behest of the occupiers or the road users. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 [Regulations]:
5.54 p.m.
Lord AIREDALE Lord AIREDALE moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 4, line 9, leave out from ("with") to end of line 10 and insert (" any organisations which appear to him to represent persons likely to be affected.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I can deal with the merits of this amendment in a very few sentences, because we did discuss this matter on Report and I was given an assurance about it. If we were in normal times I have no doubt this amendment would have been accepted and would now be in the Bill; but we are not in normal times, though of course it is much better to have it in the Bill than to have an assurance about it.
This is an amendment to Clause 5(2) which says:
"Before making any regulations … the Minister shall consult with such representative organisations as he thinks fit".
That enables the Minister to pick and choose among the representative organisations. It would clearly enable the Minister to say, if he chose, "I will consult the RAC but not also the AA, because both those organisations cover the same ground". I do not think the House on Report accepted that that was good enough, and this amendment, therefore, was to ensure that the Minister shall consult with any representative organisation that he knows about. As I say, this was accepted and would in the ordinary course of events be in the Bill by now.
In order to put this amendment down for Third Reading I had to put it down by last Wednesday, because Third Reading was going to be last Friday. By last
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Wednesday it seemed to have become abundantly clear, contrary to what we had been told in all good faith about another place not having time to consider Lords' amendments, that another place, if they put their minds to it, would have time to consider Lords' amendments. I therefore thought it worth while to put this amendment down for Third Reading, which I have done, and I beg to move.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, the noble Lord suggested that this amendment was considered on Report and was withdrawn, but did not satisfy the House at that time. I think in fact it was in Committee that the noble Lord put down exactly the same amendment word for word, and the noble Lord then did accept the arguments and the assurances that were given, extracted from my noble friend, that all the proper bodies concerned under Clause 5 would be contacted and discussions would take place. We had a very long debate on this issue. So I am a little perplexed as to why the noble Lord wishes to raise an exactly similar amendment, having withdrawn the other one after accepting the assurances.
If I may go to one other point, the noble Lord referred again to the timescale, as indeed did the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. I meant to mention when we were considering Third Reading that, as I understand it, the business of the House in another place is decided on a Thursday for the following week, so it would not have made any difference whether we had had Third Reading on Friday or today. I hope I have answered the point the noble Lord made.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, apart from the fact that assurances were given when we discussed this matter on the previous occasion, surely this particular amendment is not satisfactory in its wording. Your Lordships will recall that I withdrew an amendment at Committee stage which provided that local authority associations should be consulted. The wording of this amendment is
"… which appear to him to represent persons likely to be affected".
Would that cover local authority associations, or would it exclude them? Much as I should like to have more definite organisations mentioned, I should much prefer to see the wording which is in the

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Bill than this wording, which might cut out some of these vital organisations which may not be directly affected. I can see that there could be considerable argument as to whether the bodies I have in mind would be covered by these words.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, as I read it, this amendment would make it more likely for the Pedestrians' Association to be consulted than would be the case under the Bill as it stands. Accordingly, I support the amendment.
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, perhaps I cart clarify something here. There are two clauses involved, Clause 5 and Cause 4. Whereas Clause 5 is about consulting for the regulations, Clause 4 is about consulting with the local authorities. To answer the question just now from my noble friend, of course this would come under Clause 4 when the local authorities are consulted. I did speak to this on the Committee stage and I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, despite his pressure on me, that the wording of this clause is in a standard form for provisions for consultations on regulations made under an Act. It is a standard form. He may press the amendment, but there is nothing exceptional in this particular clause. It is standard practice, when making regulations, to spread the consultation net as widely as possible to include all representative organisations and bodies who might have an interest in them. If I can give an example, that includes the RHA, the AA, the RAC, the Freight Transport Association and the Institute of Motor Cycling.
But it must be remembered that the regulations will be concerned only with the rules concerning the installation and use of humps; they will not be concerned—here we come to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Underhill—with matters of purely local interest, such as the suitability or appropriateness of humps in specific locations. These matters will be subjected to local consultation. Provisions as to these are made in Clause 4 of the Bill; organisations representing people likely to be affected, like the pedestrians, will have the opportunity of expressing their views. I hope I have spoken sufficiently on this to convince the House that this is the right course.
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, just to resolve the complexity of the noble Earl,
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Lord Kinnoull, I should like to say that the reason I put down this amendment again was, as I said before, so as to have it in the Bill and not have to rely simply on assurances. As I said, since the Report stage there was an obvious opportunity for another place to consider this matter if it so chose. For that reason I put down this amendment again. I do not think it is of sufficient importance for me to divide the House about it. I have had again the assurances that I had in Committee. I was corrected; it was in Committee and not on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.3 p.m.
Viscount SIMON Viscount SIMON moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 4, line 11, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
("(3) No such regulations shall be made unless a draft thereof has been laid before and approved by both Houses of Parliament.").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I regard this as a very important amendment and I hope the House will give it serious consideration. I did not pursue the question of dividing against the Third Reading, very much because of what the noble Earl, Lord Avon, said—that all the matters that had been raised in the course of the debates in Committee and on Report, and again today, would be borne in mind when the regulations were drawn up. I do not seek for one moment to doubt the sincerity of that. But when the regulations are drawn up there will be other matters which have not been raised in this House. There are lots of matters which noble Lords in this House do not know about, and I think it would be asking too much to suggest that we pass an enabling Bill which lets the Minister make extensive regulations to deal with this admittedly rather difficult matter and then leave it simply to the Negative Resolution procedure.
I hope that on this I may carry with me the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, as vice-president of the Pedestrians' Association, because he will have an opportunity, if the draft regulations come for Affirmative Resolution, to satisfy himself that the interests of the Pedestrians' Association have been looked after properly. In the same way there will be other interests

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representing their case to different Members of your Lordships' House. No doubt the local authority associations will make known their views. When we really do not know what form these regulations are going to take—the noble Earl, Lord Avon, has been perfectly frank in saying that the discussions have not gone far enough for him to give any definite outline—I suggest that we ought to put into the Bill that the regulations should be subject to Affirmative Resolution. I beg to move.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, I should find it very difficult to resist this amendment; in fact, I should find it impossible to resist it for the very reason that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, has outlined. There have been so many matters proposed in amendments, or amendments which finally were not moved, where there were differences of opinion and where your Lordships have accepted quite readily the assurances given by the Minister that these matters will be fully covered by regulations. Therefore, the regulations are going to deal with quite a number of issues on which differences of opinion have been expressed.
On a number of occasions I have risen in your Lordships' House and urged that we ought to have the affirmative instead of the negative procedure, and on this occasion I should find it very difficult not to support the amendment proposed by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon. I cannot see that the Minister could give me any justification for not supporting the amendment, and I cannot possibly believe that an amendment of this kind, which is non-controversial and does not deal with the policy or content of the Bill, would create an embarrassing situation if it were passed and the Bill were returned to the Commons so amended.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, I must confess that I had not intended to support this amendment but I must yield to the blandishments of the noble Viscount and agree with the noble Lord, Lord Underhill.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, I should like to support this amendment. For the reasons I have given once this afternoon, I think this
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Bill is drafted too widely. If we leave the regulations to the Minister without the need to come back to either House, I think that some of the damage that can be done by these humps and depressions will go forward into the Act.
I hope I shall not weary the House when I say that the background to this Bill has worried me. My late husband was a Member of the other House for 20 years and I have some knowledge of its workings. This Private Member's Bill came to the other House at ten minutes to four on a Friday afternoon and its Second Reading was passed without a Division. It went upstairs to a Committee on which there were 22 Members. Twelve Members attended. After a short discussion of only 53 minutes—not, I am informed, on the Bill but on a completely different subject, about the GLC—they passed this Bill by seven votes to five. It was put through its remaining stages in the other place and it came to this House without any adequate consultation whatsoever by Members of Parliament. Members of Parliament are there to put forward the views of their constituents. At no time were they able to give those views.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has said that this is a very small enabling Bill. Actually it is a very important Bill which, if passed into law, will affect many people. A great many Members of your Lordships' House quite obviously think—of course, they have a right to their opinions—that in the end this Bill will save many lives and will help a great number of people. One of the many reasons against it is that it is inevitable, because it is written into the Bill, that the Minister will be empowered to build not only humps but depressions; that is, ditches, which nobody can see in the dark, which nobody can see if they are iced over, which nobody can see if they contain a great deal of water and which nobody can see if they contain refuse. When my noble friend Lord Ferrier talked about the pedestrians, I envisaged the pedestrian on his walk becoming very wet indeed if he were anywhere near cars, lorries, motorcycles and even cycles which were going through these ditches.
I am informed that many organisations have been asked about this matter, but we have been told already by the Minister that no experiments on these depressions

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have taken place. I contend that it is quite wrong for your Lordships' House to pass a Bill as regards part of which there have been no experiments. It is perfectly easy, as we all know, to have experiments carried out not on the highway but on strips of road built out in the wilds of Berkshire or somewhere like that.
Therefore, to put forward a Bill that deals with depressions without—and the Minister told us this—having any experiments as to whether they will be very dangerous or just dangerous is, I think, a bad thing for your Lordships' House even to consider. I welcome what the Minister has said this afternoon—namely, that humps will not be put on any road that is subject to a speed limit of over 30 miles per hour. That will at least help. But, as my noble friend pointed out, it will also mean that the roads will be residential or in urban areas, and therefore presumably they will be roads in which there would be houses.
As I think I said when we were sitting in the Royal Gallery, although the Bill is designed to slow up cars, lorries, buses and perhaps motorcyclists, it will also slow up, if it ever comes about, services such as a doctor's car, an ambulance, and a police car which is responding to a 999 call. We must consider the people living in those roads. As I said on Second Reading, I personally think that there is so much against the Bill that if the matter had been put to the vote on Second Reading I would have voted against it. Meanwhile, I shall contain myself by supporting the noble Lord's amendment.
Lord AUCKLAND: My Lords, we are up against a great difficulty here and I can speak with some experience as I handled a Private Member's Bill only the other day which, through lack of a quorum, foundered—I may say that it was not nearly such a convincing Bill as that of my noble friend. But again we have this canard about lack of discussion in the other place. It is true that this has been an overladen Session. The first Session of a new Parliament—and I have had over 20 years in this House—is always up against this problem. But, both the late Bill which I endeavoured to pilot and which went through the other place, and this one, were discussed at a reasonable hour of the day with a full
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Committee representing all parties. Whether the other place did its job properly is surely no business of your Lordships' House.
As regards this particular Bill, I am not technically equipped to pass an opinion, as regards chapter and verse, whether it is a good Bill. All that I can say is that for my own part, living in a cul-de-sac as I do, the Bill is admirable. I can quite see that there are places where road humps would be dangerous. But, on the whole, I think that this is a Bill to promote road safety and it should be given a chance. I turn briefly to the amendment. I believe that, with the present pressure on parliamentary time, the Bill as worded could be by far the best method of ensuring that particular aspects of the Bill are carefully borne in mind and that the implications of the Bill are likewise borne in mind.
6.16 p.m.
Lord HALE: My Lords I should like to make a few comments before the noble Lord sits down, or, if he likes, I shall put the observations which I wish to put to him in the form of a very short speech. One matter which has not been dealt with is that when the Bill was introduced there was never any question that it was a Private Member's Bill introduced by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, from another place and one which, in the course of its progress here, attracted the attention of the Government who adopted it.
It must be described as a Private Members' Bill because on this occasion it has come as such from another place. But, of course, in a few days' time we shall be in another Session. This is a Government approved Bill. There is nothing on earth to prevent the Government introducing this measure duly thought over, duly corrected and in the light of having read the discussions which have taken place up to now. We shall probably be told that there is not very much that the Government can say in opposition to the Bill. It will still be 99.9 per cent. the same Parliament and there will be no change of personnel by an election or anything like that. It could go through this House quite quickly after the discussions that we have had and then it could go to another place. The matter is not as urgent as all that.

1003
We have assisted this Bill time after time partly because the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, enjoys a very special respect in this House. Indeed, he has at least one other measure which is, for the moment, in harbour in another place, but if they want to proceed with it they would have, in any event, to reintroduce it. If we are reluctant to withdraw from the noble Earl the distinction of this Private Member's Bill, he has all the parliamentary historic record of having introduced a Bill which has created nearly as much controversy as the Finance Act 1910. Moreover he has now safely piloted it into the arms of Her Majesty's Government, who are generally expected to last until Christmas at any rate, and possibly until the end of next Session, and who can carefully, thoughtfully and after fuller consultation pilot this measure, if they still approve it, through another place, where it can have a full discussion, if that discussion is required.
Having wobbled about depressions during the first stage of the Bill, having had that put down as an amendment and taken out, and having had it put down again and taken out, suddenly to find it again, unaltered, after these long deliberations—some considerable expertise having been expressed—I do not understand why we should not pass the amendment. The House may reject the amendment, in which case no harm has been done. Why should we be intimidated into declining to vote for an amendment which my noble friend on the Front Bench has said he can hardly resist supporting; we should let it take its course. Neither course would deprive the Government of their chance, if they so wish, to introduce the Bill in the new Session. It would not be in the same month because the debate on the Queen's Speech will, no doubt, last until the end of the month, but it would certainly be within a few days of the new Session being opened.
Lord SWINFEN: My Lords, I, too, should like to support this amendment. The Government have given us no indication of the regulations which they propose to introduce and therefore I think it is essential that your Lordships' House has the opportunity to discuss them.
6.23 p.m.
The Earl of AVON: My Lords, I must
1004
take issue with my noble friend straight away. We have been through the Committee stage and the Report stage and we have given every indication of many of the regulations that we might introduce. The noble Lord, Lord Hale, might like to know that I did not actually conduct the Bill through its earlier stages so I might look forward to doing it again. However, I was present for the Committee stage and the Report stage and I am now happy to be on the Third Reading, and very much hope that all our work will not go for nothing, although if the noble Lord wishes, I can start all over again in the next Session.
I should like to answer a couple of points before dealing with the amendment, from which we seem to have drifted rather a long way. I can only repeat what I said on Report about depressions, which I see was a quotation of what was said in Committee anyway. I said:
"there has been no experiment whatever in depressions. It is even open to the Minister at present whether or not he would want any experiments in depressions, and there will be no question whatever of building a depression until such experiments have been tried out for a period of at least nine months".—[Official Report, 28/10/80; col. 308.]
The point about emergency services can be argued both ways. If you do not have a depression, you might have a one way street or a closed street. An emergency service can get along a street with a depression, but it cannot get along a street that has been closed. That can be argued either way, but there will of course be consultations.
This is an intriguing amendment and, as the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, said, it raises some interesting points. It seeks to substitute an Affirmative Resolution procedure for what is normally known as the Negative Resolution parliamentary approval procedure, which the Bill would apply to regulations made under it. Negative Resolution procedure is a procedure which is more economical in parliamentary time; it means that time is required for discussing regulations only if someone positively considers this necessary, and then not necessarily in both Houses. To take the pedestrians, if they want to put down a Motion, it would of course be discussed.

1005
However, Affirmative Resolution procedure requires the positive allocation of a place in the business of both Houses, whether or not anyone has anything to debate on the regulations concerned. This is by the way, save that such considerations presumably underlie the fact that most of the regulations for which the NI mister is responsible and which he is required to submit to Parliament are subject to negative procedure. If I may remind the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, this is the case with regulations made under the highways legislation—it is no different—of which this Bill will, if enacted, form part. It is also the case with the Road Traffic Regulation Act.
I am, of course, well aware that there is a general tendency to consider that the delegation of subordinate legislation powers to Ministers is too extensive and should be more closely controlled. However, I would suggest that that is an issue which, if debated, should be considered in a more general context than that of this Bill, which simply follows the precedent in the body of legislation of which it is designed to form a part. But I should also like to point out that in the discussions we have had of the powers that this Bill would give the Minister, no evidence at all has been brought to suggest that he may be discharging his existing—in some cases much more far-reaching—powers with less than full regard to the public interest and to road safety.
Consider, for instance, the Traffic Signs Regulations which the Minister makes under the Road Traffic Regulation Act. The provisions of these regulations have a far greater potential effect on road use and road safety than any road humps regulations could have. The Traffic Signs Regulations govern the information that may—and, by exclusion, may not—be given to all road users on every highway in the country. They signify potential offences by indicating mandatory prohibitions and they are subject to Negative Resolution procedure, as are, for instance, the regulations controlling pedestrian crossings. But to my knowledge it has never been suggested that Ministers have been exercising this power with insufficient regard to public rights or to road safety. On the contrary, it is, in fact, sometimes suggested, particularly by one or two of the road organisations, that the Minister's control over
1006
the content of traffic signs may be exercised with an over-anxious concern for safety.
This amendment seems to me to reflect that distrust of the way in which the Minister would exercise the powers the Bill would give him. Yet this implied distrust has never been supported by evidence of misuse by Ministers of existing, similar and more far-reaching powers. It seems to me that such evidence is needed to justify a departure from the highways legislation precedent—indeed, from the normal precedent of legislation in the transport field—as this would be. For those reasons, I should like to recommend that we resist this amendment.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH: My Lords, I rise to support the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, in this amendment, even more so having heard the remarks just made by my noble friend on the Front Bench. I do not want to get into the position implied by my noble friend Lord Auckland; nor, indeed, the implied position given by the noble Lord, Lord Hale.
Throughout the unhappy passage of this Bill various doubts as to parts of the Bill have been expressed on all sides of the House. We have most certainly had the assurance of the Minister and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that these points will be taken on board during the framing of the regulations. Apart from the one exception given to us this evening about the 30 miles an hour speed limit, there has been no assurance that such-and-such a point will be brought into the regulations. The assurance has been that such-and-such a point will be taken care of during the course of the framing of the regulations, and it was admitted at Second Reading by the Government spokesman, my noble friend Lord Long, that the regulations will take some time, that it is a difficult and experimental area; so we are in some difficulties.
There are a number of matters which have arisen during the passage of the Bill which we have not had the opportunity to debate and discuss because one cannot just put down amendment after amendment after amendment. Your Lordships have been most patient with me on the number I have put down, but I think I could raise at least sixty questions, as I would wish to talk with the department.

1007
Now, under the Negative Resolution procedure, Parliament, as Parliament, and this House in particular, would have very little opportunity of debating and discussing such regulations. By the Affirmative Resolution they would most certainly have the opportunity to bring pressure to bear if necessary.
The argument with regard to precedents over traffic signs or other road safety legislation leaves me less than warm. I do not really mind about that kind of precedent, because we are now discussing something quite new. It started in 1974 with the experimental building of humps. It has been in force for only those five or six years, and we have had only a handful of reports, largely from one source. So we enter, I believe, into a totally different area of traffic supervision and safety measures. Therefore, at this particular stage it is necessary that Parliament should have a full opportunity to discuss them.
I cannot accept what my noble friend Lord Avon said—if I do misquote him, I think the sense is the same—with regard to some Members of your Lordships' House showing a marked distrust of what the Minister, or a Minister, may do by having such wide enabling powers. I do not think that is the point. I think it is that we are so concerned about matters of this kind that we want to have a full and proper look at what is ultimately agreed to be done. Your Lordships have an enviable reputation in this field of traffic and road safety, and by accepting the noble Viscount's amendment it can, in my belief, only enhance that reputation.
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has just said about there being no question at all of any distrust of the Minister in making these regulations; but I think one ought to consider the position of the representative organisations who are going to be consulted. Having been consulted, they are not going to know what form the regulations are going to take. The regulations will be published and then, surely, the representative bodies will wish to have a target date for when the regulations are to be debated in Parliament so that they can go through their usual procedure of writing to the Members of both Houses, commenting on the regula-
1008
tions as they have turned out and on those parts which they agree with or do not agree with, or think ought to be amended in some way or another.
Then, surely, it is only right that when the Minister presents the regulations we should have a debate, so that in the light of what we are told by the expert representative organisations we can seek assurances from the Minister at the Dispatch Box about parts of the regulations and decide, in the light of the debate, whether the regulations are satisfactory or not. I should have thought that any Minister worth his salt would be only too pleased to come to the Dispatch Box with regulations of this kind and say, "Here they are, and I am here to explain them and to deal with any points that noble Lords may raise". The Negative Resolution procedure, where the regulations are put on the table and it is a take-it-or-leave-it situation, I should have thought was not in the least acceptable.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I think sometimes we have strayed a little far from the precise nature of the amendment. If we could just concentrate our minds on the amendment, it of course presents a very important issue. I do not deny that at all. It is a parliamentary procedural issue whether this Bill should have a negative procedure or an affirmative procedure. The House knows the weakness of the negative procedure in another place. The House knows the opportunities that Members in another place have of raising a debate on negative procedure. I do not hide that. But we in this House also know that every Member has a right to lay a prayer. I have been looking back over the last 20 years to see how many times prayers have been laid and how successful they were. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, is the current champion: he has laid four prayers against orders over the last 10 years. He was unsuccessful. I think he withdrew them; but he made the Minister and the Government of the day think.
My Lords, as I understand, the safeguards under the Negative Resolution procedure—and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, should know this, because he serves on behalf of the House on the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, and should, and I am sure does, examine all the many statutory instru-

1009
ments that come forward on a Negative Resolution basis and then ultimately reports to the House if they should have special attention—
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, the Joint Committee has no authority to make recommendations about the merits of a statutory instrument.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I am grateful for that elucidation. Then, of course, there are various joint committees in another place who have powers to call evidence on particular issues, and I am sure they do if they are advised that something is unsatisfactory in a statutory instrument.
The defence, really, of having a Negative Resolution procedure in regard to this Bill rests on two issues. One is precedent. As my noble friend has very firmly advised us, it is a precedent to have a Negative Resolution procedure in this sort of highways Bill. There are many precedents to quote. I will not bother to quote them, because the House knows them. Then there is the parliamentary timetable. That, of course, is the crux of the issue. The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, knows that this amendment would not be accepted by the Government in another place, and in a way one could say that it has possibly a wrecking motive.
I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, who rose to support this amendment, that in the many years that we had a Government of his persuasion, never once did they try to put this parliamentary problem right; and there were many occasions, I am sure, if he looks back in the records, when precisely the same argument was being adopted by those who were against a Bill of this nature. I hope that he will not be seen to forget that Governments, and indeed Oppositions when they become Governments, unless they change the parliamentary timetable procedure or change the Negative Resolution procedures, will always remain unsatisfactory in this respect. I hope this Bill will not founder on this amendment, because this is really an issue to do with parliamentary procedure, rather than the Bill. I hope the noble Lord will be persuaded to withdraw it.
Lord UNDERHILL: My Lords, before the noble noble Lord sits down, since
1010
reference has been made to the negative procedure in other highways matters, may I ask whether there is a precedent where other highways matters have passed through both Houses of Parliament with goodwill but without discussion, or without decisions on vital amendments because they wanted the Bill to go through?
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I think it would be wrong of me to say, "Yes, there is"; but if I were to quote one example it would be the Road Traffic Regulations, which were in a sense much more important in the safety context than this small Bill.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, I have listened to this discussion and I must say at once that I am unmoved. A good deal of attention was given to the question of parliamentary time; the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, spoke about pressure of time and the noble Earl, Lord Avon, of course implied the same thing when he spoke. All I can say is that we hope—I trust that everybody in your Lordships' House hopes—that in the next Session we are not going to have such pressure on parliamentary time as we have had this Session. Therefore, to provide for an occasional Affirmative Resolution does not seem to be an impossible thing to do.
As regards the precedent, of course we are governed partly by precedents but Parliament can always alter a precedent. I have not got the papers with me but in fact I shall tell the noble Earl, Lord Avon, afterwards of a precedent for an Affirmative Resolution in traffic regulations. I did not introduce it, but I got it accepted in a debate about 25 years ago on the subject of minimum speed limits. Arguing against minimum speed limits the Government of the day eventually agreed to have the introduction of minimum speed limits subject to the Affirmative Resolution procedure. It is a good example because here we are again dealing with something that is new. I thought that what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said about that was very relevant. This is something new, and I feel that we should have these regulations subject to Affirmative Resolution.
6.42 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 3) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 55; Not-Contents, 46.

CONTENTS

Adeane, L.

Geoffrey-Lloyd, L.

Newall, L.

Ailesbury, M.

George-Brown, L.

Norfolk, D.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Gisborough, L.

Norrie, L.

Allerton, L.

Glendevon, L.

Northchurch, B.

Ampthill, L.

Gore-Booth, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Auckland, L.

Gowrie, E.

Nunburnholme, L.

Avon, E.

Grantchester, L.

Onslow, E.

Belstead, L.

Greenway, L.

Orkney, E.

Berkeley, B.

Gridley, L.

Porritt, L.

Bessborough, E.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Radnor, E.

Blake, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chnacellor.)

Redmayne, L.

Bolton, L.

Reigate, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Halsbury, E.

Roberthall, L.

Braye, L.

Hanworth, V.

Rochdale, V.

Brentford, V.

Hawke, L.

Rugby, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Henley, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Caithness, E.

Hillingdon, L.

Saint Brides, L.

Camoys, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

St. Davids, V.

Campbell of Cioy, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

St. Germans, E.

Carr of Hadley, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Saltoun, Ly.

Cathcart, E.

Ironside, L.

Sandford, L.

Chelvvood, L.

James of Rusholme, L.

Sandys, L.

Chesham, L.

Kilmany, L.

Selkirk, E.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Kimberley, E.

Sharples, B.

Clwyd, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Sherfield, L.

Cockfield, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Kinnoull, E.

Soames, L. (L. President.)

Cottesloe, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Spens, L.

De Freyne, L.

Long, V.

Strathcarron, L.

De La Warr, E.

Loudoun, C.

Strathclyde, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Luke, L.

Strathspey, L.

Duncan-Sandys, L.

Lyell, L.

Sudeley, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Mackay of Clashfern, L.

Swinfen, L.

Eccles, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Teviot, L.

Elibank, L.

Mancroft, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Mansfield, E.

Trenchard, V.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Margadale, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Marley, L.

Vernon, L.

Exeter, M.

Monk Bretton, L.

Vickers, B.

Ferrers, E.

Montagu of Beaulieu, L.

Vivian, L.

Fortescue, E.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Westbury, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Morris, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

Gage, V.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Wolfenden, L.

Gainford, L.

Netherthorpe, L.

Young, B.

Garner, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Hale, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]

Amherst, E.

Hampton, L.

Ardwick, L.

Hooson, L.

Rochester, L.

Bacon, B.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Banks, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Hughes, L.

Seear, B.

Birk, B.

Hunt, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Blease, L.

Jeger, B.

Shinwell, L.

Blyton, L.

Kaldor, L.

Simon, V.

Boston of Faversham, L,

Kilbracken, L.

Stedman, B.

Brock way, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Kirkhill, L.

Stewart of Fuiham, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Leatherland, L.

Stone, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Lee of Newton, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Crowther-Hunt, L.

Listowel, E.

Strauss, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Davies of Penrhys, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Longford, E.

Underhill, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Wade, L.

Evans of Claughton, L.

Maelor, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Fisher of Rednal, B.

Meston, L.

Walston, L.

Fulton, L.

Milford, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Mishcon, L.

Whaddon, L.

Gardiner, L.

Morris of Grasmere, L.

White, B.

Gladwyn, L.

Oram, L.

Wigoder, L.

Glenamara, L.

Parry, L.

Willis, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Peart, L.

Winstanley, L.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Hale, L.

Pitt of Hampstead, L.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Hampton, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Banks, L.

Hanworth, V.

Rochester, L.

Bernstein, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Blease, L.

Kaldor, L.

Simon, V. [Teller.]

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Stone, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Strathcarron, L.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Longford, E.

Sudeley, L.

Colwyn, L.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Swinfen, L.

David, B.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

de Clifford, L.

McNair, L.

Underhill, L. [Teller.]

Evans of Claughton, L.

Maelor, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Ferrier, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Vickers, B.

Gaitskell, B.

Morris, L.

Wade, L.

Glenamara, L.

Mottistone, L.

White, B.

Gosford, E.

Ogmore, L.

Wigoder, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Peart, L.

Winstanley, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Allerton, L.

Gardiner, L.

Montgomery of Alamein, V.

Auckland, L. [Teller.]

Gisborough, L.

Newall, L.

Avon, E.

Glendevon, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Bessborough, E.

Gowrie, E.

Orkney, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L.
Chancellor.)

St. Aldwyn, E.

Campbell of Croy, L.

St. Germans, E.

Cathcart, E.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Sandys, L.

Chelwood, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Selsdon, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Inglewood, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Killearn, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Craigavon, V.

Kimberley, E.

Strathspey, L.

Crathorne, L.

Kinnoull, E. [Teller.]

Trefgarne, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Long, V.

Trenchard, V.

De Freyne, L.

Lyell, L.

Trumpington, B.

Denham, L.

Margadale, L.

Young, B.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Monk Bretton, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
6.49 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.— (The Earl of Kinnoull.)
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I think it would be a courtesy to thank all those Members who have shown such a keen and burning interest in this small Bill and to thank my noble friend Lord Avon on, I think, his first occasion of helping to assist a Bill through this House; he has done it magnificently. I am personally sorry that we have—
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I fear that I must remind my noble friend that the Question has been put, and therefore he is out of order in making a speech, however welcome.

PURCHASING PRACTICES: MEMORANDUM NEDC (80) 44
6.50 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY The Earl of KIMBERLEY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the recommendations contained in the Memorandum NEDC (80) 44, issued by the Secretary of State for Industry on 26th June 1980, are promptly and effectively implemented.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, Memorandum NEDC (80) 44, issued by the Secretary of State for Industry on 26th June of this year to the Institute of Purchasing and Supply, is a declaration of principle of great national importance.

1013
Briefly, the memorandum stated that central Government would be examining their purchasing arrangements to ensure that full use was being made of Government purchasing power to help United Kingdom suppliers become more competitive. The Secretary of State asked the nationalised industries and local authorities, as well as private sector buyers, to look similarly at their purchasing practices with the same objective in view and he outlined some ways in which that aim could be fulfilled. On page 2 of the memorandum Section 4 stated that the Department of Industry would give them every support by means of a conference of the Institute of Purchasing and Supply, that the Secretary of State welcomed the suggestion and hoped he would be able to address the conference himself. I gather that that has not as yet happened, but hopefully it will occur in the not too distant future.
Few would disagree that it must be more economical for the United Kingdom to buy a domestic rather than an imported product, particularly if the quality and delivery are on a par, so let us consider three related factors: first, the past consequences of the lack of a policy; secondly, the policies of our international competitors; and thirdly, the problems of implementation. The logic in the memorandum is both obvious and impeccable and the principle set out is of great economic importance. In fact, a recent Conservative Party political broadcast said, "Think British before you buy", so Her Majesty's Government must surely set an example.
The principle is so obviously in the national interest as a force for economic development and prosperity that it is incredible that we should even need to discuss it. Do we hear of other countries discussing it? I very much look forward to hearing from noble Lords opposite that they support the principle so that it may become consistent national economic policy outside the area of party politics. My concern is that the memorandum's policy should be put into practice forthwith, for it is essential that we capitalise to the full on our abilities in the innovative and expanding market sectors such as aerospace, electronics and computers. If we take a brief look at some of the sectors that have contributed to our
1014
national wealth in the past, we find the railways, shipbuilding, steel and the motor industry, but alas today they have virtually ceased to contribute. In fact, I believe they actually consume our resources at the rate of millions of pounds a day.
If we review our past performance and attitudes in these high technology areas, what do we discover? First, we have enormous abilities in the research and development area, followed by an enormous failure to transform the products into profitable sales by effective marketing and mass production. For some reason, our inability to co-ordinate the requirements of the user with the products of our manufacturers, together with lack of enterprising investment, has obviously played the major part in this failure. What overseas buyers will buy British products when the British public sector will not demonstrate its faith in them and sometimes perhaps even openly disparage them?
Examples are numerous. First, aerospace. I have discussed British Airways' —or is it just "British" these days?—purchasing policy at length on many occasions in your Lordships' House. The consequences of the policy for the economy have been, first, a severe drain on the balance of payments in acquiring American-built aircraft and the airline's operations are likely to add to the drain on our resources, although I agree that British Airways are doing their best to remedy this. Secondly, we have a decline in our civil aviation design and production capability which has made a reduction in our wealth-producing capability, a vital area of economic development, at least according to Viscount Davignon, the EEC Industry Commissioner, and President Giscard d'Estaing. Even Spain and Brazil have development programmes for their national aerospace industries. Thus, the aircraft industry is a prime example where Britain has not earned the profit it should have done.
Other examples abound in the public sector; police and local authorities are buying imported motor-cycles and vehicles at the same time as the public purse is paying out to Meriden and British Leyland. The Civil Aviation Authority bought imported radar systems, and not from Marconi or Plessey. I could go on ad infinitum and ad nauseam. The list

1015
of British technological firsts in which British genius and leadership measured in money and time have often been dissipated and lost is equally depressing: the jet engine—before we say we made a success of it do not let us forget that it bankrupted Rolls-Royce—jet airliners, the commercial computer, hovercraft, the brain scanner and one in which I have a vested interest and hope that will not happen to, the airship.
Today's situation is little better and our aerospace industry on the civil side is still, alas, not a good example. The Harrier jet, on the military side, is a world-beater, but it would have been even more successful in an enhanced supersonic form, but we cancelled that development in the 'sixties. It could not now be revived, but there is a strong danger that the supersonic jump jet will be handed over to McDonald Douglas and once again we may have to buy it back. On the electronics front it seems that our advanced products, like System X and Viewdata, are not being introduced and marketed fast enough for us to gain a profitable world market share. Surely these are areas where the Government's policy should be implemented urgently. As a starter, why have Her Majesty's Government not yet decided to agree to give the Inland Revenue's requirement for a computer to ICL? Perhaps the Minister will enlarge on that when he replies.
Let us briefly consider our competitors; it is interesting, and I hope constructive, to consider their policies. France has continuously developed her high technology industries over the last 20 years. Aerospace in particular has become a successful part of the French economic infrastructure. The French have always adopted a consistent policy of development, of which Concorde was an important component. France is at the head of the electronic revolution with a programme to introduce "Telematiques" throughout the country. The French have an intense sense of nationalism which strongly influences all purchasing decisions in the public sector. If we in the United Kingdom had built some British warships on spec it is possible that the French would not just have concluded a multimillion pound deal for three frigates with Saudi Arabia. But France had them
1016
ready, so she could deliver them at very short notice, instead of taking years as we might have done.
In the Far East, Japan is another competitor who exhibits an even stronger sense of national purpose. The Japanese have deliberately set out to achieve worldwide markets in field after field. Their success with ship-building, domestic electronics, motorcycles and vehicles is obvious. Next on the list apparently are the aerospace and computer industries. Needless to say, the foundation of the Japanese success is a highly secure domestic market.
My last example is the United States. Its indigenous industries benefit greatly from development contracts and from procurement policies which favour them over foreign competitors—the "Buy American" Act. They also have a vast domestic market, enabling them to secure great economies because of long production runs, coupled with a social and patriotic attitude which encourages innovation and stability. In fact when I was last in Dallas I saw cars with stickers on the back window, stating:
"Texan cars, built in Texas, by Texans for Texans".
Bell helicopters in the States reckon to sell 2,500 helicopters in the same category as the new Westland WG 30, which British Airways wants to operate from Milton Keynes into London Airport. I asked a Question about that yesterday. For once, British Airways is asking to buy a British machine, with a British engine, built in Britain. So for God's sake! let British Airways operate this service, since we may sell abroad 300 or 400 of these helicopters; and they sell for £1 million each.
We were once described by Napoleon as a nation of shopkeepers—and, my Lords, shopkeepers are salesmen. We appear in so many instances to have let this ability slip in so much that although we have a genius for writing reports, we often seem to fail to follow up our recommendations; or if we do, we are very often too late. In fact Sir John Clark of Plessey summed up the situation the other day by saying:
"Britain is going on playing cricket while the rest of the world is playing karate".
Let us take a brief look at the problems that are associated with any procurement policy. The first is the definition of

1017
"United Kingdom industry". There are many of the so-called multinationals which operate in this country and which claim to be good corporate citizens in that they export, pay taxes, provide employment, and so on. But, my Lords, surely the test must be one of ownership, control, direction and ultimate benefit. IBM (UK), for example, had I believe a turnover of £882 million last year. It recently disclosed that the net contribution to equipment exports was only £8 million. Therefore after repatriation of dividends of approximately £51 million to its United States parent, the United Kingdom company presumably made a negative contribution to the balance of payments of some £43 million.
So I maintain that the policy must be to support genuine British companies first, European ones secondly, with the rest of the world, including the multinationals, last. My noble friend might not entirely agree with these sentiments, but I hope that even if he does not do so tonight, perhaps Her Majesty's Government will if necessary reconsider these thoughts.
Our second problem, and perhaps the most important, is that of incentive. British industry must be stimulated rather than lulled into a state of false security. My suggestion would be to favour those organisations which have a commitment in active participation and competition in overseas markets, and thus earn profits for Britain.
A third problem is that of a product of innovation which does not entirely appear to meet any existing user specifications or requirements. For instance, the example that I have in mind is the hovercraft, which has clear military applications, as could be seen in the film on television a few weeks ago of the Warsaw Pact manoeuvres. Its adoption by the Ministry of Defence has been very slow and remains half-hearted, and I suggest that there must be many other cases. If the Civil Service were using Viewdata systems in quantity, probably the Rank television factory would not be facing closure; but we have not grasped the opportunity.
To conclude, I would say that despite such problems, there are areas in the private sector which apply, and thrive on,
1018
a pro-British procurement policy. Marks and Spencer, Freddie Laker, even—he may not buy British, but at least he bought the Airbus—and Unipart are shining examples.
My Lords, we live in a harsh, competitive world; we must realise the fact and act accordingly. The noble Lord, Lord Nelson of Stafford, chairman of GEC, said the other day:
"Competitor countries turn their public purchasing and Government research and development funding to the advantage of their industries and their exports. United Kingdom companies cannot be expected to win their battles at home and abroad against powerful and heavily-backed foreign rivals if they are obliged to compete with one, sometimes two, hands tied behind their backs".
I welcome the Secretary of State's policy statement as a large step towards achieving a coherent national policy for increasing our prosperity by encouraging United Kingdom industry. But I should like to emphasise the need for some form of central machinery for discussing future requirements in the public sector at a very early stage, whereby development contracts can be ensured, thus leading British industry to a competitive position. To put it simply and logically, there should be: first, early statement of requirement; secondly, development contracting; and, thirdly, competitive production. Thus three vital objectives will be achieved: first, reduction of unemployment; secondly, reduction of expenditure on social services; and, thirdly, we will all work for the national benefit—and perhaps by so doing we shall be able to use our cricket bats as effective counters against karate chops.
7.7 p.m.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, I am sure that the House will be grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, for having asked this Question. It seems to me to be just the kind of subject on which it is appropriate to call for what might be termed a progress report, and in the same way I have no doubt that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, will welcome this opportunity to give us all the information he can as to what has actually happened in the four months since the memorandum was published.
As the noble Earl told us, the memorandum's avowed purpose was to explain how the Government felt that the public

1019
sector could use its purchasing power to help British industry generally to become more competitive. That is an objective which has my wholehearted support; and I am sure that the Secretary of State was right to say that purchasers and their suppliers can best serve their mutual interests by discussing their forward plans together. That is the policy which ensures that 90 per cent. of the goods that Marks and Spencer sell are supplied by British manufacturing firms—one of the many things that I so much admire about that particular company. In my view the public sector should certainly aim to act in the same way wherever this can be done without damage to our long-term economic and commercial interests.
As the memorandum made plain, such a policy has important implications for product design and performance specification, and I shall be interested to hear from the Minister what progress has been made in the case of the engineering industry in implementing the recommendations on those points, which were contained in the reports by Sir Frederick Warner in 1977 for the National Economic Development Office, and by Sir Kenneth Corfield.
As regards research and development, in their report of February 1980 the Advisory Council for Applied Research and Development concluded that the various parts of the public sector carried out too much of this themselves in support of their purchasing decisions; they took insufficient account of the needs of their own suppliers; and they aimed to meet only their own particular requirements. Again, I should be glad to learn of the Government's response to the recommendations in that report as to how those deficiencies might be remedied. Perhaps I should say that I did not give the Minister notice that I was going to ask those specific questions because the points appear in the memorandum, but I shall understand, of course, if he is not in a position to respond in any detail now, in which case perhaps he would be kind enough to drop me a note later.
In my view, one of the most telling points in that same ACARD report was that one department is frequently responsible within the Government for a
1020
particular nationalised industry while another, usually the Department of Industry itself, is responsible for its suppliers. As the authors of this report put it in what seemed to me a masterly understatement:
"In such cases we are not convinced that there is adequate liaison between departments over the development of the industry as a whole";
and they recommend that departments should review their arrangements for considering the impact of the activities of individual nationalised industries on the private sector, with particular reference to purchasing policies. I should therefore like to ask the Minister to tell us when he comes to reply what has happened about that specific recommendation, because it seems to me to be a very important one.
Now in what we say this evening I am sure that none of us will wish to make the task of the noble Viscount more difficult, but we see reports that some cash might be made available to bodies such as the Post Office, the BBC, the Ministry of Defence, and so on; or that such bodies might be compensated directly, so that development contracts can be placed with British suppliers. Liberals find this a particularly delicate area, because, as good Europeans and with our free trade sympathies, we wish EEC agreements to be honoured and GATT rules observed. But within those constraints I am certainly all for the public sector buying British, and so improving the ability of our own suppliers, as this memorandum puts it, to provide the right goods at the deg price at the right time.
Thus, in the particular case of the contract for computerising (a horrible word!) this country's tax system, I personally hope it will somehow prove possible to award it to ICL rather than to one of that company's international competitors. It may be that the Minister will not feel able to say much on that particular matter at this moment, but to the extent that he can it will be welcome. By the same token, although it is not perhaps directly relevant to this Question, I cannot forbear to add that where it is a matter of a nationalised industry supplying, rather than purchasing from, the private sector, as in the case, for example, of the gas feedstock soon to come ashore from the North Sea, I hope equally that it will prove to be our own chemical

1021
companies, rather than those of our international competitors, which will benefit.
I think that is all, really, my Lords, that I wish to say. Indeed, I would not have said even as much as I have were it not for my belief that this is a matter of vital concern for British industry in general. It seemed important, therefore, that someone from these Benches should encourage the Government, in the words and spirit of this Question, to take prompt steps to see that, so far as possible, the recommendations contained in the memorandum are implemented.
7.16 p.m.
Lord GRANVILLE of EYE: My Lords, we are grateful, I am sure, to the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, for introducing this short debate; and I listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Rochester. The purpose of this paper is to explain how we believe the public sector can deploy its purchasing power to strengthen and promote the competitiveness of United Kingdom industry. This is, as the noble Earl has said, a very important paper, and a very interesting report; and I am sure that if there is an adequate follow-up the exercise will certainly have been worthwhile. In paragraph 2 it says:
"Over recent years public purchasers have to an increasing extent found that overseas manufacturers have been better able to meet their requirements in quality, price or delivery, and particularly for high-technology products".
My Lords, I think that defence and national security are also involved in this problem. In the last war, after the fall of France, we had no 40mm guns for our fighter aircraft, and there was a serious problem with regard to the supply of bauxite and many other things. I wonder whether we have learned our lesson about this from the problems we had to face then. Are we any more self-sufficient now?—particularly as, some months ago, we read that Rolls-Royce, who are very involved in industrial war-potential and Government security contracts, were reported to have been to Italy for quotations for certain parts of their products.
The noble Lord mentioned electronics. I wonder how far the situation with regard to electronics is involved with our defence requirements and our national war-
1022
potential. The noble Lord said, in effect, that we are in fact two nations: the old, large traditional industries of the North are languishing; and the new consumer industries of the South are taking in each other's washing and are doing very well, largely upon imported goods from France and Italy. I wonder when the Government are going to have to get down to dealing with this adverse balance of the Economic Community, which runs into hundreds of millions of pounds.
I am told that the electronics industry in this country, the country of invention, is in a serious position. I am also told that everything seems to be made easy and predictable for importers of electronic goods, whether from Hong Kong or America or wherever, as if we are hell bent to organise for overseas competitors to give them our markets on a plate. We have read in the press recently of electronic factories in this country closing down—television, word processing and electronics equipment in the preliminary advanced work on microsilicon chips. How long can any Government look at that situation and be complacent about it? When, from playing around with microchips, the great inevitable switch comes to using them on a wider sphere—and we are worried about two million unemployed now—how many more unemployed will there be after the big changeover? If we allow these foreign competitors in electronics to come into this country and take our markets, how shall we employ the people who are displaced?
I think in dealing with this problem of imports we must recognise that electronics in motor-cars and so on has now created a powerful vested interest in this country. The number of people employed in the distribution of their products, whether of motor vehicles, of television sets, of electronics of every description, or in repair, in servicing, in garages, in sales, and in pressurised advertising in the media, has resulted in this becoming a considerable industry in this country. When we look at the number of people using Japanese cars, I am reminded of when we used to export cars to the United States and when more people made profits and got employment in the distribution of our cars in America than those who were manufacturing them in this country. Now we have a reverse process.

1023
I wonder whether when we are trying to get home purchasers of British cars and so on, we are up against this old problem of buyers wondering whether they can get spares or deliveries under four or five months because of industrial troubles—when at the drop of a hat the media can give prime viewing time to the militants urging a walk-out at the factory gates. This is the kind of propaganda which is preventing the rightful sales of British cars. I need not mention British Leyland, for it applies on a much wider scale.
I think this is an interesting paper, but I believe it avoids many of the real problems, particularly the problem of dealing with the imports of the foreign electronics industries which are causing the shut-down of many of the newer factories. If we are to avoid astronomical unemployment when the silicon chip process really gets under way, the Government must give this situation serious consideration. I find that this is a memorandum of good intentions; but drastic action will be needed before we are through with this problem—and it is a problem which is not going away.
7.23 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, the House has before it a memorandum, reference NEDC (80) 44, issued on 26th June of this year, by the Secretary of State for Industry, Sir Keith Joseph. I am bound to say that the House is most grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, for having put down this Unstarred Question so that we can ventilate the contents of the memorandum. I would assure the noble Earl that only the utmost sense of public duty could have impelled him to draw attention to a memorandum that is so acutely embarrassing to the Government that he supports. It is as though Sir Keith Joseph, sitting among the desert of industry that he and his Government and their policies havecreated, had suddenly become aware of the fact that purchases by the public sector, mainly by the nationalised industries and local authorities, amount in total to many billions of pounds per annum and that in some sectors public bodies are the predominant or sole purchasers. Exactly so. Yet, over the past years,
1024
members of the Government and their supporters in the country have done very little other than persistently to denigrate the nationalised industries themselves, the purpose for their existence and the way in which they are operated.
Now, in a blinding flash, they suddenly find out that, after all, it is the nationalised industries and the local authorities who are responsible for a good deal of the trade of private industry throughout the country, whatever that trade may be; whether it be turbines, cables, boilers, pipes, machine tools, pumps, generators, motor vehicles, plant and equipment of all kinds, hospital and medical equipment, protective clothing, chemicals, plastics, furniture or the products of the construction industry.
One of the most vital factors in the everyday life of private industry is the demand that comes from the public sector. We on this side of the House, to my certain knowledge, for the past half century have continually drawn the country's attention to the fact that if any Government were so minded as to use the nationalised industries in the national interest, there lay within their hands a valuable instrument for stimulating industry when sometimes it was getting a little stagnant or, occasionally perhaps, for cutting back when it was getting overheated. In other words, the control of the nationalised industries was in itself a very valuable factor in enabling Government at any time to be able to take its due share of the steering of the whole economy.
We have listened this afternoon to the sentiments expressed not only by the noble Earl himself but by the noble Lords, Lord Rochester and Lord Granville of Eye, and I am bound to say that I cannot help agreeing with most of what they say. Of course, it is right that our own nationalised industries—and I am not going to forget the local authorities—should, as far as they possibly can, buy from British industry. In fact, if they do so, undoubtedly it provides for continuation of orders, it provides (as the memorandum sets out) for longer runs and therefore lower unit costs. In short, it is a most valuable instrument.
But in this respect the Government are of course in the political sense completely schizophrenic. They say in the con-

1025
clusions in paragraph 8 of the memorandum:
"the Government are determined to ensure that a real change in practice takes place".
Of course; and we are concerned with the practice of this and we cannot consider this practice in isolation because of course public enterprise is deliberately subjected by the Government to constrictions. These are voiced week by week by the Government themselves.
In answer even to the slightest Question that comes from their own Back-Bench in this House and in another place the Government express their determination that public enterprises—and they refer to them by name as opportunity serves—must operate on a commercial basis and must operate competitively. They say that they are no different from any other commercial organisation and should be treated as such. If, for example, they bought in the British market at prices which were far less competitive than those abroad, they would minimise the return on their capital and they would then expose themselves to the criticism of not operating profitably. In point of fact, the commercial policy of buying as cheaply as possible on the assumption that quality, delivery and everything else are a detail, is one that is hammered home to every nationalised industry by the Government.
So, my Lords, what has happened? It means that at the present time, owing to the policies of the Government in which they so obstinately persist, much of British industry cannot possibly compete in price with what is produced overseas. The Government's interest policies have undoubtedly caused the high exchange rate—and if the noble Viscount wants any further information I can refer him to practically every reputable financial commentator and most of the financial press today, and he will find that that is so. Owing to the high rate of the pound, artificially inflated by the Government and their high interest policies, German, French and American manufacturers of equipment required by nationalised industry have a subsidy of something like 30 per cent. or 40 per cent. as compared with the British manufacturer. Indeed, even worse than that, owing again to the policies of the Government in forcing up energy prices of electricity and gas, and of intervening actively in the nationalised industries, we find that competitors over-
1026
seas are able to offer prices below those offered by British firms.
The Government can take a choice. Of course the nationalised industries would be prepared, with Government approval, to buy British. But, no; they are enjoined to operate on a strictly competitive basis, whereas the policies of the Government ensure that British firms cannot operate on a competitive basis. We have said many times on this side of the House that cuts in Government expenditure operate in exactly the same way so far as local authorities are concerned. When the Government cut public expenditure—and Mr. Heseltine has become increasingly stringent so far as local authorities are concerned—what are they doing? They are cutting down the propensity to purchase by local authorities from a whole realm, a whole mass, of British industry, and on the opportunity for the construction industry to supply them with things that they need. I have no doubt that there are many British manufacturers who would be quite willing and indeed are anxious to sell kidney machines to the hospital service. One of the wickedest and most despicable cuts in Government expenditure has been the cuts that ensure that people will die because some hospital authorities—or at least one hospital authority—have been forbidden to acquire any further kidney machines.
We are getting now to the stark realities of the association of public bodies with private industry. We on this side of the House of course agree that there should be this close association. We had been urging this a long time before the present Government even became aware of it and indeed aware of its uses. The paper says that they wish that there should be established a closer relationship and discussion of forward plans together. It goes on to say:
"To achieve success it will be necessary for them to enter into a sustained dialogue over future requirements, often up to five or more years ahead".
How can the nationalised industries possibly plan ahead? As we are talking now, and as we have been living in this country over the past year, it is quite clear that the arbitrary imposition of cash limits and the artificial restriction of investments by nationalised industries make it quite impossible for them to plan

1027
ahead at all intelligently in these matters. The Government have interfered time after time. Not only have the Government forced up prices charged by nationalised industries but they have exhorted them time and time again to buy in on the cheapest possible market.
I am sorry to have to raise these matters, which are the practical context within which a policy of this kind has to operate. For some reason that is obscure even to the most skilled city economist and is most certainly obscure to the hulk of British industry including the CBI, the Government—that is to say, the minute section of it comprising the right honourable lady the Prime Minister, the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir Keith Joseph himself—keep the demands of industry for finance, the demands of the nationalised industries for finance, within the public sector borrowing requirement. They are now under pressure to bring the public sector borrowing requirement down owing to the fact that the increase in unemployment over the past year has added millions and millions to their public sector borrowing requirement.
These are things the Government have got to face before they issue memoranda of this kind, the contents of which are wholly admirable. What the Government have to do is to create the practical conditions within which the principles laid down in these memoranda can operate: that is all they have to do. But if I know Sir Keith Joseph's political schizophrenia aright, this is what he will not do. He will consider this as in a little compartment—and I have no doubt that the noble Lord would prefer to debate it on this basis—unaware that the global effect of his policies are precisely such as will completely frustrate their being brought into effective operation.
I therefore reiterate that the only conditions under which this policy, with which I am in complete concurrence, can be brought into operation is, first, by an immediate reduction in interest rates of at least 4 per cent. so that the pound may begin to come to a more normal level where British industry will be able to compete with continental imports which other firms, for entirely competitive
1028
reasons, are compelled to buy in order to preserve their own viability.
The second step is that the nationalised industries' borrowing requirements must be taken out of the public sector borrowing requirement at any rate, even though the extent of that borrowing requirement has already been proved to have no relevance to the level of inflation in the United Kingdom. The third thing the Government can do, if they want their policies to succeed, is to stop this incessant denigration of the nationalised industries and the snide sneers that come from them the whole of the time. Finally, in the words of the right honourable gentleman the Member for Hexham, Mr. Geoffrey Rippon, yesterday, they should stop this "motorway madness" which the Government's existing economic and fiscal policies so accurately reflect.
7.43 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Viscount Trenchard): My Lords, if my noble friend who introduced this Hexham question will forgive me for one moment, I should like very briefly to make the odd point while declining to go into a debate on the industrial situation which the noble Lord will no doubt find future occasions to do—more than one, I should think—and will be able to repeat his many statements covering the industrial situation, the economic situation, energy prices and all the rest.
I must, I am afraid, say just a few things for the sake of the record before we get into the subject of the Question. We are, of course, discussing public purchasing as a whole: the central departments, the local authorities and the nationalised industries as well. Secondly, neither my right honourable friend nor I nor any member of the Government has ever denigrated or made snide remarks about those working in and running the nationalised industries. What we have done is to suggest, as three-quarters of the public have already realised although noble Lords opposite have not, that nationalisation of major industries to a greater extent than our successful competitors has perhaps been a mistake. Nevertheless, we shall deal with the situation as it is, as realistically as possible. But on every occasion my right honourable friend has paid tribute to the people who

1029
are working in the nationalised industries and the whole of our policies are designed to make their very difficult tasks that much easier, if we can find a way of doing it consistent of course with stopping the haemorrhage of public funds which the steel figures and other nationalised industry figures represent.
So far as industrial policies are concerned, I sometimes get a little worried that noble Lords opposite may be having a little trouble with their memories and indeed with the leaders of their party in another place, because when their incomes and prices policy finally broke down they made it quite clear that the only realistic alternative was to have a realistic control of the money supply. Let me also just point out that that is what we are doing, and it is not cutting the money supply but trying to prevent it from growing at a pace which makes inflation certain and makes it impossible to deal with the root causes of inflation, so long neglected.
The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, appeared to have in mind the use of the nationalised industries in relation to the subject that we are debating as a sort of buying instrument where the Government, Ministers and civil servants could intervene and ensure that British goods were bought. I am afraid that we do not have that degree of overweening self-confidence that enables us to judge the purchasing policies of huge nationalised industries. But what we want to do is to make sure that the chairmen of those industries—and I shall come back to this in a moment—review thoroughly their purchasing policies so that in their judgment they can buy British and pull through British technology whenever that is possible.
One of the most competitive businesses has already been mentioned in this debate. There was a suggestion, by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, I think, that the nationalised industries would be less competitive if they bought British. Marks and Spencer are one of the most competitive firms in the world and they have a very high record of buying British. I hope that when I come back to the serious question posed by my noble friend we can examine how that is; because what the noble Lord was suggesting, by inference, was that we should encourage the nationalised industries to
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take yet more taxpayers' money to buy British more expensively.
Finally, I must point out to the noble Lord opposite that the need for a new policy is based on the fact that in the days of his Government there was a movement away from buying British, which, I have to accept, continued into the early days of our Government. We have analysed some of the reasons why on some of the subjects which my noble friend has raised. We have tried to use past history of public authorities, central departments and nationalised industries purchasing abroad, to try to analyse why. It is because of this drift away from buying British by the public sector that it is so necessary to have a new policy, which my right honourable friend has brought in.
I myself, in the Department of Industry, soon found that I was the Minister responsible in that department. In other departments other Ministers were also responsible and it was with them that I liaised in relation to the placing by the CAA of the radar contracts abroad. That was a clear example of a failure to get a co-operative and meaningful dialogue over the years before we came to office. We hope that our new policies and systems will ensure that that sort of thing does not occur again. It was a marvel of misunderstanding.
The companies felt—and I cannot judge the detail—that the specifications laid down were very special to Britain and the CAA, and would make it hard to maintain their very valuable export business, which had been selling £100 million a year without any great assistance. Yet, somehow, they were unable to get together with the purchaser to talk this through, and to find a common base which not only would meet the requirements of the Civil Aviation Authority, but would also strengthen British industry for the future.
I am not allotting blame, as I am quite incapable of doing so. I would merely say about that industry that I believe that they will continue to obtain a large share of the world's business in the capital radar field, and I wish them very well in doing so. All we can try to do is to see that the policy that we have adopted ensures much earlier contact and con-

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tinued dialogue over specifications, and over how to put together the interests of manufacturer and of purchaser.
The Department of Industry, led by my right honourable friend, has been made the lead department in this new policy. So the co-ordination between departments, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, raised, is centred on the Department of Industry, and at civil servant and at ministerial level the progressing of this matter, with all the departments which have responsibility for any part of the public sector, is being urgently carried through.
All departments have been asked to review their purchasing policy. All nationalised industry chairmen have been asked about this. Discussions have been taking place on their reviews. Discussions have taken place with Sir Derek Ezra as chairman of the Nationalised Industries Committee. Sir Derek has set such a fine example of this method of liaising closely with suppliers, in his capacity as chairman of the National Coal Board, and has, indeed, strengthened industries manufacturing mining equipment, leading to good export performance.
He and others have extended these thoughts to the purchasing policy of private industry, and we wish them well. This matter has been raised with the local authority associations and will be raised with important single local authorities. Training schemes are planned and, indeed, seminars have started. The Department of Industry will be the catalyst, not thrusting itself forward, not telling people how to do it, but trying to ensure that this long-term dialogue and the pull-through of British technology takes place, and that British industry plans to become competitive in the areas where it is strong.
Let me say to the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, that the Warner Report on Standards has been accepted and the Government intend to see that its objectives are achieved. It is a field in which it is difficult to make very fast progress, as I think the noble Lord will accept. The Institute of Purchasing had its conference in September. My right honourable friend was unable to address them, but my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secre-
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tary at the Department of Industry spoke to them fully on this subject.
So that all these things—the ACARD Report included—are moving forward. We agree, in the main, with many of the ACARD recommendations. In particular, we are studying and considering whether there is scope for movement in relation to trying to encourage the shift of more research to the private sector and to the suppliers, rather than too big a weight of it occasionally being in the public purchasers' departments.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, mentioned the gas pipelines and the value of some of the components of that gas to the British chemical industry. I can assure him that those points are well understood and well studied, and that within the basic market framework the Government will try to ensure that the maximum national interest is met.
We are often accused of not giving enough help to our manufacturing industries in this area, and my noble friend, who introduced this Question, mentioned the importance of development contracts in other countries. We have our international obligations and we shall adhere to them. In this area, they are principally the EEC supplies and works directives, which require contracts from Government departments to be advertised if they exceed £130,000 in value. We shall ensure that others carry those out, as well as ourselves—if I may say that to my noble friend in relation to the cricket hat and the karate chop.
In January, the GATT provision comes into operation, which we shall comply with, and which will be a very big help in relation to major changes in the "buy American" Act. We give much help to various industries, as indeed do our competitors in other countries; particularly, perhaps, in electronics, where not only have we continued to back Inmos, but we have also continued to carry out the MISP and the MAP schemes, and have encouraged development in the various selective schemes which we still use. Quite a part of this has helped British manufacturing industry to have products available and suitable for our public purchasing area.
It would be wrong to think that we could supply 100 per cent. of our needs,

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either in the public purchasing area or in the country as a whole, when, as noble Lords know, we export 30 per cent. of our GDP and are a trading nation. In the huge industrial world of today, we shall not be the first supplier of every possible thing to our own organisations. But we want to give every chance to those industries which are capable of success to develop their successes, to use their innovatory skills and to get a pay-off, where it is appropriate, through public purchasing in the first instance.
I agree with my noble friend that there is no doubt that our innovative ability is still there. His list of the number of things that we have invented in Britain but have not developed could be extended. The failure has gone past what is called in industry the development stage, so I agree entirely with his point. Public purchasing is not the only reason. That the profitability levels of British industry had been depleted by 1975 to one-quarter of the level of our competitors is a large part of the reason, too. These things will not all he put right immediately.
I am not quite sure that I can go all the way with my noble friend in relation to obviously modern industries and obviously old industries. The old industries, even the nationalised old industries where enormous sums of taxpayers' money are involved, are still producing a considerable quantity of added value in Britain and there is a considerable number of companies which are dependent upon them. Nor do I feel that industries in the private sector, like textiles, should necessarily be labelled old industries and considered not to be in the same class for ensuring that the new initiative regarding public purchasing should help them. Aeroplanes, to the older men in this House, are new, but much of the textile industry that remains today is based on highly scientific, new materials which have been changed four or five times, whose substances are based upon the petrochemical industries. If one goes to their plants and mills, one finds engineering works of precision which an aircraft manufacturer would be proud to see.
It is for this reason that I find it difficult also just to say that electronics is an important matter. Of course it is important and it is all-pervasive in many different parts of our industries, but in the industrial
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world of today we may not be going to be top in every aspect. However, a great deal of encouragement is being given because of its all-pervasive nature.
I am not going to deal with the noble Earl's examples from the aircraft industry which he knows so much better than do I in terms of the history of our development of, or failure to develop, a number of important new aircraft, or hovercrafts, or helicopters, or the supersonic Harrier jump jet, but I would ask him to look to the future, which is indeed the purpose of his Question. Perhaps we should have a larger aerospace industry, but we still have an aerospace industry which is certainly as big as the French aerospace industry. Although we may not make complete aircraft to the extent that we once did in all areas, we make a very good proportion of the engines and of the highly complicated components which go into both our own aircraft and foreign aircraft. However, I will draw my right honourable friend's attention, and also the attention of my noble friend the Minister at the Ministry of Defence, to all of his points.
In relation to System "X" and Viewdata, this is a prime example of very good co-operation already between the public sector and the private sector. Three major companies, and the Post Office, have not only developed System "X" but have sold it. It is becoming famous across the world and they have a joint selling organisation to promote it. This is an area where, with congratulations to the noble Lord's colleagues when in office, there is already, due mainly to the Post Office and to private enterprise, a considerable success story which needs to be reinforced, and I believe that we shall give it reinforcement. Noble Lords will have seen the recent announcement that my right honourable friend Mr. Butler is to concentrate upon information technology. This will bring together the Post Office and the private side at ministerial level and ensure that this happens in other areas.
So far as Viewdata is concerned, this, too, we shall promote. We do not believe that the comparisons which are often made with what other nations, and particularly the French, are doing are always 100 per cent. fair. One is told, for instance, that the French already have the kind of Prestel system with which

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noble Lords will be familiar working in relation to telephone directories, that they are substituting these new systems for all their telephone directories and that thus their public purchasing is much better than ours. I expect noble Lords know that the truth of the matter is that the French are planning a test in a town of 250,000 people to see whether this form of press-button telephone directory is popular, and that they are then to consider whether it could be totally substituted, and at what price. We are well aware of that experiment and we are looking at it in considerable detail. It is of course an extra cost, unless one can make it a total substitution; and there lies a problem which we are studying with great care.
We shall press on as fast as we can in Government departments with the use of things like Prestel. It was only this year, again, that hard copies have been able to be taken off the Prestel system machines. Until that was possible, substituting existing systems of information in Government departments was not possible because one needs records for meetings, for coming to the House and for all the other things. One would simply have had a duplication of systems and an increase in public expenditure. I give these two little examples, one on the French side and one on our side, merely to illustrate that Ministers have directed their minds to this matter and are determined to make the new policy work and to get over the problems which exist.
I am, as usual, taking too long on this very important subject. I have already mentioned—I will not go into details but I can supply them to my noble friend—that we support entirely his sentiments in relation to the Buy American Act which is against free and fair international trade. A big hole in it is being made by the new agreed GATT system on 1st January. We are aware that some of the states in the United States do not always agree with what the Federal Government have done. Occasionally we might have the same problem on a small scale in the United Kingdom. But we shall watch it and we shall press the United States to ensure that the GATT treaty is carried out.
I lose my noble friend just slightly on the definition of what United Kingdom
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industry is. He mentioned many factors, but I do not think that ownership should be regarded as the overwhelming factor. Of course, we should all like to see indigenous British-owned firms getting as much of the cake as they possibly can, but we believe in encouraging our big, strong, multinational firms to invest in other countries also. By the same token we have always been open for investment in the United Kingdom.
It is not true, either, that all British-owned firms do a very big proportion of their operations in the United Kingdom, or that all foreign-owned firms do only a small proportion of their operations in the United Kingdom. There are foreign firms that have in the United Kingdom nearly all their research and development—at least for a branch—and their full manufacturing operations and are making a major contribution to the British economy. So I am inclined to "think British" in terms of operations rather more than in terms of ownership.
In defence of that great American-owned computer company, IBM, I think I must mention that while my noble friend's figures are technically accurate, they do not go the whole way. Enormous capital investments have been put into this country year by year. In the last recorded year I think they have amounted to over £60 million. Then, of course, a big tax bill has also been paid and an enormous number of jobs have been provided in their model works with model employee relations around the country.
I think I must leave the situation there and say that I would rather not be held by my noble friend to a particular machinery at this stage, though we are reviewing the machinery for each sort of main area of public purchasing and trying to make sure that it is well oiled. But one type of system I think will not fit. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Granville of Eye, that we are not complacent in this area. That is why there is a need for a new policy, because it has not been working well enough under the previous Government and it does not yet work well enough under us.
I worry as to how quickly one can make progress in this enormous and complicated area. It would be politically delightful to be able to say that we were going to

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ensure that in a very short space of time there were more British manufactured goods bought by public authorities. I do not think the situation is like that, but we are absolutely determined to get a system where the possession of these big public purchasing orders in the hands of Government departments, nationalised industries, local authorities, are used to make British industry more competitive and will drag through new British technology.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, may I ask him just one question: has he any possible news with regard to the Inland Revenue?
Viscount TRENCHARD: My Lords, I deliberately did not waste time by saying that I did not have any news and by telling your Lordships what has already been made very clear through the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement on 8th August. As I really cannot take the matter any further forward than that, I did not waste your Lordships' time.

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  CONSTITUENCIES: SIZE
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  EMPLOYMENT OF THE HANDICAPPED
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  HEALTH AND SAFETY: CPRS REVIEW
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  AIR SPACE INTRUSIONS BY SOVIET MILITARY AIRCRAFT