Sitting of 25 October 1979

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  UNIVERSITY COLLEGE LONDON BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next at Seven o'clock.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NORTHERN IRELAND

    Security
    Mr. Peter Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Molyneauxasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on developments in security during the past three months.
    Mr. Hardyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with present security arrangements.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Humphrey Atkins): The Government's first—and overriding—duty in Northern Ireland is, and will be, to defend its people against terrorism from whatever source it comes. We shall not be satisfied until it has been totally suppressed. Ninety-one people have been killed this year as a result of terrorist activity. There have also been 487 bomb attacks. Since the end of August there has been some rise in inter-sectarian tension, mainly in the Belfast area, resulting in four deaths.
    The Provisional IRA has continued to concentrate its attacks on the security forces and prison officers. I am sure the
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    House would wish to pay tribute to the extraordinary dedication and bravery of all the men and women in the RUC, the Army and the prison service.
    Their efforts are by no means without result. Five hundred and fifty charges have been brought for terrorist offences this year, 36 of them for murder and 29 for attempted murder. In the same period, 647 people have been convicted of terrorist crimes: 53 of these of murder and 16 of attempted murder.
    During the recess I announced measures taken to strengthen our hand—an increase of 1,000 in the establishment of the RUC and the appointment of a new joint staff under Sir Maurice Oldfield to assist me in improving the co-ordination and effectiveness of the fight against terrorism. Most recently, I have held discussions with Ministers of the Irish Republic which are leading to substantial improvements in the anti-terrorist efforts of our respective security forces.
    The tragic events of recent weeks have shown yet again what the terrorist threat means, and the Government fully recognise the concern that is alive in Northern Ireland today. I take this first opportunity to re-affirm to the House, as I have already done in Northern Ireland, that we neither underestimate the gravity of that threat nor shall we weaken in our determination to overcome it, so that the people of Northern Ireland can enjoy the fundamental human right to live at peace under the rule of law. With the support of the community itself, and the resolve of the security forces, I am confident that we shall succeed.
    Mr. Robinson: In view of the alarming statistics of death and destruction in Northern Ireland that the Secretary of State has given, how confident can he be that the measures he has outlined will have any telling impact in the war against terrorists? Will the Secretary of State give an assurance to the House that, if the measures he has outlined do not have the effect that he hopes for, he will change his security policy to one that is more penetrating and effective?
    Mr. Atkins: I said in my original answer that with the measures we have introduced and are continuing, and with the resolve of the security forces and the support of the community, I am confident that we shall succeed, although I am

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    afraid that it is bound to take time. In answer to the second part of the hon. Member's question, we constantly look at the direction and thrust of our effort to meet changing circumstances, and shall continue to do so.
    Mr. Molyneaux: In view of the apparent inability of the Dublin Government to deliver what little may have been promised in the way of co-operation, will the Secretary of State now take effective measures to ensure that the land frontier of the United Kingdom is absolutely secure?
    Mr. Atkins: There is a later question on the Order Paper about my discussions with the Dublin Government. If I may say so, I think that the hon. Gentleman is premature in saying that the Government of the Republic are not delivering the goods. I shall return to this in due course. The hon. Gentleman suggests that the border should be made secure. Frankly, if by that he means that it should be sealed off, I must remind him and the House that the border is more than 300 miles long and that to close it altogether would require a dramatic increase in the number of security forces that would have to patrol it.
    Mr. Hardy: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that while security must be maintained—and we must express our gratitude to and respect for the services involved—the extent and cost of that commitment, and the level of economic engagement in Ulster, should, at least to some extent, be made dependent upon the response to the political initiatives that are now so necessary?
    Mr. Atkins: I think the whole House recognises that to seek to defend citizens of the United Kingdom against the kind of attack to which the people of Northern Ireland are subjected is a costly business. At the same time, I do not believe that this House would begrudge the cost of seeking to defend our fellow citizens against this kind of evil.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that after the tragic Mountbatten murders he went on record as saying that he would insist that the RUC would be permitted to question, in Gardia stations across the border, those who had been arrested by the Gardia for acts of terrorism within Northern Ireland?
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    Does he also recall that he talked about hot pursuit across the border, as well as coming to grips with extradition? Can he tell the House whether, on any of these grounds, he has had any satisfaction from the Irish Republic Government in view of the strong statement made yesterday by the Premier of the Republic that no such steps would be taken?
    Mr. Atkins: There is a later question on the Order Paper about my discussions with the Government of the Irish Republic, and I think that it would be more appropriate if I left the answer to that point until then.
    Mr. McCusker: Does the Secretary of State recall that when he was first appointed he was described by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) as
    "a strong law and order man"?
    When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to fulfil those expectations?
    Mr. Atkins: I trust that the House is is no doubt about the resolve of the Government and I to use the most effective means of suppressing terrorism. Since we came into office, we have adjusted the way in which we are tackling terrorism to take account of the new circumstances. In my original answer I described a number of the steps that we have taken. When further steps need to be taken which seem to the Government to be appropriate, we shall take them.
    Mr. John: May I press on the Secretary of State one particular case, namely, the one in which an unfortunate gentleman was not only shot during the day but was further shot during the evening while he was a patient in hospital? May I suggest that one of the constructive steps that he could take is to ensure that hospitals and other such institutions are more conscious of security and the danger to patients than they are at the moment?
    Mr. Atkins: This was a most distressing case which showed up a weakness in hospital security arrangements. I immediately issued instructions that security in hospitals should be reviewed in an effort to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

    Political Situation
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, if he detects any signs of political movement in Ulster.
    Mr. Humphrey Atkins: I ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which I shall be making later this afternoon.

    Oldpark Road, North Belfast
    Mr. McQuadeasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the redevelopment of the Oldpark Road area of North Belfast.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Philip Goodhart): A development scheme for the southern part of redevelopment area 2, south of Louisa Street, has been published, proposing that a site of approximately 18 acres should be developed for industrial use. Housing development is proceeding in redevelopment area 3, close to the junction of Oldpark Road and Manor Street. In addition, the Housing Executive intends redeveloping and rehabilitating housing in the Torrens/Heathfield area.
    Mr. McQuade: Is it not a fact that for the 576 houses demolished in redevelopment area 3 the Housing Executive is building only 129? How does the hon. Gentleman think that such a policy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—will solve the housing shortage for the people of Oldpark, who deserve to be rehoused in their own area? If the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) would like to go outside I shall speak to him afterwards.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Instead of going outside perhaps the hon. Gentleman will come and have a cup of tea with me afterwards.
    Mr. Goodhart: In the constituency of the hon, gallant and formidable Member the Housing Executive and the housing associations have contracts in existence or about to be let that cost roughly £12½ million. That constitutes a massive programme by any standards.

    Coal
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further
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    discussions he has had with interested bodies about the continued use of coal in Northern Ireland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Giles Shaw): The Department of Commerce maintains regular contact with the National Coal Board, the Northern Ireland coal importers' association and other interested bodies. In discussions which have taken place since the Government's statement of 23 July on energy policy in Northern Ireland, both the Coal Board and the Northern Ireland coal trade have assured the Department that all necessary steps are being taken to ensure that any increase in demand for coal from the Province will be met.
    Mr. Skinner: In the light of what the Minister said, it is not a scandal to hear that the Northern Ireland energy market has been supplemented by the largest ever consignment of American coal at a time when, as reported today on the tape, British miners have produced an extra 1 million tons during the past six months? If we are to exhort the British miners to produce more coal and engage in greater productivity efforts, we must secure the markets and be able to use British coal in Northern Ireland rather than the American coal which was imported recently.
    Mr. Shaw: I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. If he were able to persuade the National Coal Board to produce more coal for Northern Ireland we would be able to fulfil all our obligations by importations from Great Britain. The fact remains that in this instance the NCB, which supplies nearly all the coal required for the Province, was unable to make available the tonnages required and a small amount of coal from the United States was imported. I would further suggest that it is vitally important for me to ensure that coal consumers in the Province have all that is required before the winter.
    Mr. John: Does not the Minister agree that a policy of generating electricity in the Province based solely upon oil as the generating agent is holding Northern Ireland's economic future to hostage? Will the hon. Gentleman therefore initiate discussions to ensure that phases three and four of the Kilroot power station are dual-fired, with coal and oil,

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    so that in future we shall be able to take advantage of the comparative cheapness of coal as compared with oil?
    Mr. Shaw: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that those discussions have already taken place and that a review of the possibility of having coal firing for stages three and four of the Kilroot power station is well under way. I expect to have a report within a matter of weeks.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Since the United States Government have put an embargo on arms to the RUC, should not the hon. Gentleman put an embargo on American coal and ensure that we get British coal in Northern Ireland? The hon. Gentleman should play them at their own game.
    Mr. Shaw: I suggest that the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is a matter for my right hon. Friend. Secondly, I must insist on obtaining coal for the people in the Province from whatever sources I can to ensure that their demand is legitimately met.
    Mr. McCusker: If, as has been suggested, the NCB has increased its output, is the Minister confident that Northern Ireland is getting its fair share of that increased output? If the Government cannot ensure that the NCB meets its obligations in this respect, how does he expect us to make it do so?
    Mr. Shaw: The hon. Gentleman will surely be aware that after last year's protracted cold winter, stocks of coal have been at an all-time low. It is, therefore, inevitable that a long period of buildup is required. With regard to Northern Ireland, we are now satisfied that we shall have adequate stocks for meeting the winter.

    Law (Conformity)
    Mr. J. Enoch Powellasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will cause to be compiled and published a list of those parts of the law in Northern Ireland which in the opinion of the Government it is expedient in due course to bring into conformity with the law in Great Britain or England and Wales, as the case may be, showing the respective enactments in parallel columns.
    The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Hugh Rossi): No. Legislation is introduced for Northern Ireland to meet the particular needs of the Province and not simply to bring Northern Ireland law into conformity with that of Great Britain. An exhaustive survey of the differences between the law in Northern Ireland and that in England and Wales, quite apart from the separate legislative and legal system in Scotland, would be an enormous task of doubtful utility.
    Mr. Powell: Are the Government aware that my hon. Friends and I warmly support the steps taken already to assimilate the law in Northern Ireland with that in the rest of the United Kingdom, or that of England and Wales as the case may be, even where that may be most conveniently achieved by Order in Council, which we otherwise find objectionable? Is it not most unsatisfactory that these measures should be produced, as it were, haphazardly in the course of the session without it being possible to gain any idea of the priorities and to be assured that we are tackling the most serious discrepancies first?
    Mr. Rossi: At present there are, of course, a number of orders before Ministers by which it is intended to enact similar provisions to those already in existence in Great Britain. This is a continuing process. If it would help the right hon. Member and his hon. Friends I would be perfectly happy to let him see a list of those orders which are before Ministers, or have them placed in the Library.

    Royal Ulster Constabulary (Arms Supply)
    Rev. Ian Paisleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the purchase of arms for the Royal Ulster Constabulary from the United States of America.
    Mr. Humphrey Atkins: The United States Administration are reviewing their policy on the issue of licences for the export of arms for use by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. My noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has made our views on this matter unmistakably clear. I understand that the Administration have

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    decided not to process further applications for export licences pending the outcome of the review. They have been left in no doubt of the RUC's needs. The British Government therefore hope and expect that the review will be completed soon; and that no restraints will be placed on the export of arms by United States manufacturers for use by a legally constituted police force in the United Kingdom.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a disgraceful situation in which a friendly power is refusing to supply arms to the legal police force of another friendly power? Is it not a fact that the Royal Ulster Constabulary is being greatly inconvenienced and that arrangements made for training in this particular firearm have been cancelled? Is he prepared to shop elsewhere to get over this inconvenience?
    Mr. Atkins: The RUC is not yet seriously inconvenienced by the fact that the orders have not come. It is still using the Walther 9 mm semi-automatic pistol which it has had for 10 years. The RUC believes that the replacement Ruger pistol from America is a superior weapon. I will not disguise the fact that if the issue of licences is not forthcoming in the reasonably near future there will be difficulties. I hope very much that the United States Administration will complete its review quickly and authorise the manufacturers to export the remaining part of our order so that the RUC will get the weapons it needs when it needs them.
    Mr. Wm. Ross: Why on earth was a police force ever armed with an automatic pistol in the first place? Even if these American weapons are made available, is the Secretary of State satisfied that there will be a satisfactory supply of spare parts and necessary ammunition?
    Mr. Atkins: I do not know why the RUC chose the Walther semi-automatic 10 years ago. However, it did and it believes that those weapons have been useful. But it believes that the Ruger is even better. The question of spare parts is closely tied up with the supply of the weapons because the order is not solely for weapons; it is for ammunition and
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    spare parts as well. We hope that the whole order will be authorised by the United States Government shortly.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is not this evenhandedness between law and murder unworthy and uncharacteristic of a great country that was once known as the arsenal of democracy? Will the Government do everything possible to change this attitude speedily?
    Mr. Atkins: Yes. There can be no question of being even-handed between a legally constituted police force and terrorists. The United States Administration are entitled to be even-handed or to stand back from discussions about political aspiration, but I am certain that they are not in that position as regards arming a legally constituted police force to defend itself against the evil of terrorism, which is all too damaging.

    Extradition
    Mr. Wm. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he intends to raise with the Government of the Irish Republic the question of extradition of persons from the United Kingdom now residing in the Irish Republic for whom the Royal Ulster Constabulary has issued warrants of arrest.
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made with obtaining the extradition of alleged terrorists from the Republic of Ireland; and what resort has been had to the criminal jurisdiction legislation.
    Mr. Humphrey Atkins: I have frequently made clear—most recently in my discussions on 5 October with Ministers of the Irish Republic—the Government's concern that those who commit terrorist crimes in Northern Ireland and flee to the Republic should be brought to justice. Extradition procedures have, in practice proved ineffective because the Irish High Court has found cause not to grant extradition for offences which are claimed to be political or to be associated with political offences.
    Evidence gathered by the RUC concerning persons who are alleged to have committed terrorist offences in Northern Ireland, but who are now known to be in the Irish Republic, has recently been

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    made available to the Garda. We hope this will enable the Garda to bring prosecutions under the extra-territorial criminal jurisdiction legislation, which allows terrorist suspects to be brought to trial in one jurisdiction for specified offences committed in the other after 1 June 1976.
    It is solely for the responsible authorities in the Republic to determine whether charges should be brought, as would be the case in this country in similar circumstances. However, I remind hon. Members that I agreed with Irish Ministers on 5 October on the importance of making further use of the extra-territorial legislation.
    Mr. Ross: Does the Secretary of State really expect this legislation to be effective? If he does, no one in Northern Ireland would agree with him. Is he aware that there is no provision in international law which prohibits extradition of such persons from the Irish Republic? The fault lies entirely with the Irish Republic. What effective steps does he now intend to take after his recent failure to bring these people to justice?
    Mr. Atkins: It would not be appropriate for me to comment on the decisions taken by the courts of another country, but I must say that I think the legislation will prove effective. The Irish Ministers whom I met on 5 October, including the Minister of Justice, agreed that the fuller use of the extra-territorial legislation was a step forward of which we should make better use.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Since the Irish Foreign Minister himself asserted when in Opposition, in line with the erudite article in The Daily Telegraph, that there is no constitutional objection to extradition, does my right hon. Friend not agree that consistency in this matter would be as welcome as the progress made in cross-border co-operation? Does he expect the Dublin Government to sign the European Convention?
    Mr. Atkins: On the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I should be in even greater difficulty if I were to involve myself in legal arguments. On the second part, I understand that the Dublin Government have indicated that they wish to sign the European protocol and I hope that they will.
    Mr. Fitt: The Minister will be aware that the Criminal Jurisdiction Act is the last remnant of the Sunningdale agreement and that it has been an Act of Parliament in Britain and Ireland since 1975. Why is it that it is only recently that the RUC in Northern Ireland has made evidence available to the Garda? Why did it not do so in 1976, 1977, last year and earlier this year? How many people in the Republic does the RUC wish to apprehend?
    Mr. Atkins: I referred to recent cases in which evidence has been gathered and sent to the Republic. They are not isolated. It has been done before. I mentioned those cases because, following our meeting and the collection of the evidence, we are asking the Irish authorities to proceed with prosecutions. I hope that we shall succeed. Without notice, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the number of people thought to be in the Irish Republic who are wanted by the RUC.
    Mr. Bradford: Will the Secretary of State accept that extradition is consequential on firm evidence being provided to the Eire courts and that the Act to which he has referred does not allow policemen to go in person to the courts to provide that evidence? Will he demand that the RUC should be admitted to the Eire courts and that the criminals who are indicted there should be extradited to Northern Ireland? If he does not agree to press for those measures, we shall have no alternative but to ask the Prime Minister to assume responsibility for security.
    Mr. Atkins: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman is right in stating that witnesses, whether police officers or anyone else, are not allowed to attend courts in the Republic. I believe that to be an incorrect statement. If the hon. Gentleman can give me evidence that I am wrong, I shall take up the matter.
    Mr. Michael Brown: Has my right hon. Friend had any discussions with the Eire Government about the possibility of security forces in Ulster entering the territory of southern Ireland when it is clear to those security forces that a terrorist has been on Northern Ireland territory and has subsequently escaped to southern Ireland territory?
    Mr. Atkins: My hon. Friend may have seen that the discussions that I had with Ministers of the Republic on 5 October resulted in a communiqué issued by both Governments in which we confirmed that we have made a number of arrangements which we believe will considerably increase the effectiveness of our joint effort against terrorism. However, we agreed at the same time that we would not make those arrangements public. The House will readily understand why we are not making public precisely what we are doing. Anybody, including the Provisional IRA, can buy Hansard. I shall, therefore, not go into details in the House.
    Mr. John: May I press the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House how many cases under the Act have been passed to the Government of the Irish Republic, and to report to the House when the results of that action—and whether the requests resulted in prosecution—come to hand? Since the major obstacle to extradition is the ability of those against whom extradition is sought to raise a political defence, does not the answer lie in the ratification by the Irish Republic Government of the European convention on terrorism?
    Mr. Atkins: The hon. Gentleman is right on the latter point. If the Irish Government were to ratify that convention, as we have done, the difficulties would disappear. I canot tell the hon. Gentleman how many applications for extradition have been made recently unless he accepts the period since 1971 as being recent enough. In that time, 75 warrants have been sent to the Republic for people who are suspected of committing terrorist offences and only one person has been returned to Northern Ireland. In the same period, 152 warrants have been sent to the Republic for the extradition of persons suspected of non-terrorist offences and 52 people have been returned to the Province.

    Terrorism
    Mr. McCuskerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many terrorist incidents have been recorded in police divisions H, J, K, L, M, N, O and P during the first nine months of 1979 in which the terrorists involved either operated from the Republic of
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    Ireland or sought sanctuary there after committing their crimes; and how many people died in these incidents.
    Mr. Humphrey Atkins: Between 1 January and 30 September 1979 the Royal Ulster Constabulary recorded 63 terrorist incidents in those police divisions which required contact with the Garda in view of possible use of the border by those responsible. In the course of those incidents, 35 people died.
    Mr. McCusker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while the figures, particularly those relating to deaths, are shocking, they will not surprise the people who live along the border? Does he agree that the figures nail once and for all the Jack Lynch lie that less than 3 per cent. of terrorism in Northern Ireland emanates from the Republic? What the Secretary of State has said today sounds for all the world like the blarney he must have heard in Dublin. When will he do something to prevent another 30 or 40 people from being killed in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Atkins: On the question of the 3 per cent. figure, there has been a different method of calculating about border incidents. The matter is no longer discussed between us on that basis. The hon. Gentleman calls for stronger measures. We have been seeking to get agreement with the Republic that we should make a better joint effort on both sides of the border. I stress the word "joint", which was stressed in the communiqués issued after my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister met Mr. Lynch in September and after I met the Irish Ministers in October. The communiqués said that it was agreed between us that we have to make a joint effort in a common cause.
    The hon. Gentleman's constituency is particularly affected since one end of it is on the border. It is the belief of myself and the Government of the Republic that what we have set in motion will be a considerable help in inhibiting the movement of terrorists, stopping people escaping from justice, stopping the supply of weapons coming through and the like. We have the agreement and we must do our utmost to make it work as effectively as possible. I believe that it will be effective.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the question that I put earlier, which he said he would answer more fully later in Question Time? On the questions of extradition—which the right hon. Gentleman said was necessary after the Lord Mountbatten murders—hot pursuit, which he has also said is necessary, and the RUC having the opportunity to question suspects arrested on the other side of the border for crimes committed in Northern Ireland, we have to ask what progress the right hon. Gentleman has made, bearing in mind that Jack Lynch said yesterday that there will be no hot pursuit and that none of the matters to which I have referred will be taken care of.
    Mr. Atkins: On the question of hot pursuit, I said that it was very frustrating for security forces pursuing a suspect towards the border to have to stop and allow the suspect to escape unpursued over the border. There are various ways of pursuing suspects. I shall not go into detail, but I am satisfied that the apprehension of terrorists in either jurisdiction will be easier and more effective than before. The hon. Gentleman said that I was going to demand that members of the RUC should be able to interrogate people in the Republic of Ireland. I assure him that the obtaining of evidence against suspects in the Republic will now be a great deal easier.

    De Lorean Project
    Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the further progress of the De Lorean project.
    Mr. Giles Shaw: Construction of the factory buildings is well advanced. Recruitment of hourly-paid workers has begun and there is now a total of 155 persons on the payroll. Development work on the DMC12 car is being satisfactorily carried out by Lotus Cars Limited and two prototypes are currently undergoing road trials.
    Mr. Cryer: I very much welcome the provision of jobs in West Belfast, but does not the Minister think that the cost so far of providing 150 jobs is rather high at £53 million? Does he not feel that there ought to be more rapid developments in this private enterprise venture
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    which is being so lavishly supported by the taxpayer? Is the hon. Gentleman also satisfied that the venture should be supported by such a vast amount of design and development work by Lotus? Is he satisfied that he has sufficient scrutiny of the project and sufficient Government intervention or is he just handing over the money and letting private enterprise do the rest?
    Mr. Shaw: The hon. Gentleman could well have addressed, and probably did address, those questions to the Government of which he was once a member. The fact remains that so far as the investment is concerned, we are satisfied that we can monitor progress effectively, that we are carrying out the arrangements entered into by the previous Administration and that, regarding development, the operation with Lotus Cars is going through smoothly. On the taxpayers' commitment, I would suggest that we have got, through our membership on the De Lorean company and through our monitoring of the NIDA operation, adequate control of how taxpayers' money is being spent. I accept that this is a major part of the Government's responsibility.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Since we discussed these matters in July, has my hon. Friend had any success in establishing whether this remarkably fortunate American person has succeeded in his efforts to obtain a franchise for Alfa Romeo in North America, in direct competition with this car, as a means of hedging his bets?
    Mr. Shaw: My latest information is that arrangements which have been under discussion between De Lorean and the Alfa Romeo company have not been concluded and I cannot therefore comment on the generality. But, on the information available to me, I am satisfied that the proposal was not in direct competition with the De Lorean car.
    Mr. Pendry: Will the Minister accept from me that the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) are his own and not those of Her Majesty's Opposition? Most of us on the Opposition side of the House supported the previous Government in the De Lorean project, bringing jobs to Belfast where they are much needed. We shall continue to support this Government in that objective.
    Mr. Shaw: I recognise the force of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman. I have always believed that the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer), thank goodness, is unique.

    Government Policy (Information)
    Mr. Marlowasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he is taking to propagate the Government's view of the Northern Ireland situation within the Irish-American community; how this is divided between formal and informal agencies; how much money is being spent; and what are the publications being produced.
    Mr. Stanbrookasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied that the Government's policy regarding Northern Ireland is adequately expounded in North America.
    Mr. Humphrey Atkins: Her Majesty's representatives in the United States receive regular briefing on Northern Ireland, on general and specific issues. They are active in advising suitable British visitors on how they can help to propagate the facts and dispel misunderstanding. Hon. Members themselves and leading members of the local community are also briefed by my Department before visiting the United States.
    We shall continue to give a high priority to such work, especially in those parts of the country where ignorance and misconception are most rife. I am conscious that, while the effort being put in is considerable, there is still a lot to be done. Questions about the operation of our overseas information services are a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Lord Privy Seal.
    Mr. Marlow: Will my right hon. Friend tell the people of the United States that he is confident about the success of his policies and convinced that Northern Ireland will always want to be, and will therefore always remain, part of the United Kingdom and that anyone in the United States who want to raise money for terrorist organisations in the North of Ireland is wasting his time and will be causing death, havoc and destruction among innocent people?
    Mr. Atkins: I am glad to hear what my hon. Friend has said. I have no doubt
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    that it will be heard in the United States. If, with the approval of my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary, my hon. Friend is able to go to the United States, I hope that he will say that there. We wish to lose no opportunity of informing the Irish-American people of the true state of affairs in Northern Ireland, and wishes of the people there, and the evil that is done with money which, I fear, is subscribed, in many cases, in good faith.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not so much enemy propaganda as the appalling ignorance in America of the facts of Northern Ireland which is to blame? Is it not the case that the image of a colonialist regime backed by British troops, springs all too easily into American minds? Will he make certain that our information services in North America have all the resources and funds they need in order to give the facts?
    Mr. Atkins: I agree that ignorance persists at all levels in the Irish-American community and that there is an unfortunate tendency to offer advice from that rather shaky base. Of course, most Irish-American leaders are motivated by a genuine desire to see a peaceful resolution of the political situation in Northern Ireland. But there remains a great deal to be done at all levels in the Irish-American community. I shall draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend the point that my hon. Friend makes about the provision of the necessary funds.
    Mr. Fitt: Will the Secretary of State recognise that there is also appalling ignorance in many parts of the United Kingdom about what is happening in Northern Ireland? Will he not be too enthusiastic about having confidence in his own proposals for Northern Ireland? We have had troubles in Northern Ireland since 1968, if not since the inception of the State. Will he recognise that not all Americans are anti-British and that some Irish-Americans are very sincere, honest and concerned in trying to bring about a resolution of the conflict? It is unfair to try to discredit every Irish-American who tries to bring peace to Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Atkins: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There are many well-informed and well-disposed people in the

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    United States. Unfortunately, there is ignorance there, too. I do not deny that there is ignorance in many other parts of the world. We must do our best to dispel it.

  EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
  Mr. McQuarrieasked the Prime Minister what arrangements she has made for regular meetings with the leader of the European Conservative Members of Parliament.
  The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): My right hon. and noble Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will maintain regular contacts with the leader of the European Democratic group and his colleagues.
  Mr. McQuarrie: Will my right hon. Friend advise the leader of the European group that, when she is in Dublin to meet the Heads of State, she will advise member States that under no circumstances does she intend to permit the British Government to pay £915 million more to EEC funds than we receive in assistance, which is much more than that paid by Germany?
  The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The present contributions and those proposed for next year are absolutely intolerable. We have been saying so. It is our object at Dublin to get the amount reduced generally to a broad balance between what we put in and what we get out.
  Mr. Stoddart: Will the right hon. Lady clarify the position to members of her party in the European Parliament? Will she make clear what she means? She has been blowing hot and cold. First, we had the tough talk; then, last Tuesday, the soft talk. Will she make clear to her colleagues that she intends to withhold the contribution unless it is made fair?
  The Prime Minister: I am not aware that I have ever talked softly about this matter. The present battle has to be joined at Dublin on the European budget. What general would reveal his tactics before the battle has even begun?
  Sir Derek Walker-Smith: Will my right hon. Friend include in any sage counsel and wise guidance she is minded to give
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  to the chairman of the group an exhortation that the work of some Members in the previous Parliament be continued and reinforced in seeking to ensure that the scope of Commission directives and regulations does not exceed that contemplated by the Treaty and the securing of the principle of no harmonisation for harmonisation's sake?
  The Prime Minister: I agree entirely with my right hon. and learned Friend and praise his work in the last Parliament. The Commission is not there to standardise for the sake of standardisation but only where it is necessary to enable the objectives of the Treaty, namely the free movement of capital, goods and people, to be attained.
  Mr. James Callaghan: Is the right hon. Lady aware that, since we initially raised this question, when there was not quite so much enthusiasm on the Conservative side and we were told that if only we would be good Europeans it would all come well, we now give her the full support that we wish she had given us earlier? She can go to Dublin knowing that there is a united House of Commons which wishes to see a successful conclusion to this matter? Is she also aware that, although we do not press now to know her tactics in the event of a refusal, we shall be very interested after the meeting has taken place?
  The Prime Minister: That I totally accept. I trust that I shall be successful in negotiating a corrective mechanism at Dublin.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Dr. McDonaldasked the Prime Minister if she will list her engagements for Thursday 25 October.
  The Prime Minister: This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be visiting the Young People's Parliament, organised under the auspices of the International Year of the Child. Later today I shall be meeting the Prime Minister of Egypt.
  Dr. McDonald: Will the Prime Minister find time today to reflect on the fact that, in spite of her protestations of concern for the poor, as a result of her first

  621
  Budget the numbers of families caught in the trap of paying more tax and losing benefits for every extra pound they earn will reach an all-time high of 90,000 this year and that her Government are trying to conceal this fact by refusing to publish the figures?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady knows that the budget for health and personal social services this year is greater than it was last year and that next year it will be greater than it is this year. We have, therefore, given some priority to that. We have to learn to live within the nation's means; the more people are able to produce the more we shall be able to spend on desirable social services.
  Mr. Tapsell: Would my right hon. Friend, later in the day—one does not necessarily want her to give an answer now to the substantive point—ask those whose responsibility it is to make it clear whether it is the intention actually to repeal the Exchange Control Act 1947?
  The Prime Minister: As there is no intention of retaining exchange control, I believe that it can be repealed by order. Would my hon. Friend please ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose task it is to answer accurately on the subject?
  Mr. Alfred Morris: Will the right hon. Lady spare a moment today to congratulate the area health authority concerned on its decision not to close the child development centre at Charing Cross Hospital? Does she agree that it would have been an act of vandalism to close that important centre for handicapped children for a saving of £100,000?
  The Prime Minister: I believe that a number of closures and threats of closures are being made which need not be made on a budget which is basically increased. I hope that people will not consider closing these very sensitive hospitals.
  Mr. Neubert: On this anniversary of the battle of Agincourt, will my right hon. Friend attempt to rally the great mass of trade unionists in a campaign for higher productivity and increased production? Otherwise, will not the loss of more working days through strikes this year than in any year since the General Strike of 1926 look like an attempt at industrial suicide?
  The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Unless we can get higher productivity and lower unit costs, we shall not get the increased prosperity which we all want to see. That is precisely why we gave such priority to income tax reductions as incentives in the Budget.
  Mr. Allan Roberts: Does not the right hon. Lady accept that it is the greatest irony that she should be visiting the Young People's Parliament arranged during the International Year of the Child at a time when her Government are cutting services to children who are deprived, who go to day nurseries and who attend school?
  The Prime Minister: The money being spent on the health and personal social services is actually increasing. What the hon. Gentleman's Government intended to do was to spend £4,000 million which they did not have. It is neither honourable nor moral to spend money over and above the standard of living which one can earn.
  Mr. Budgen: Will my right hon. Friend today make a statement about immigration policy? In particular, will she take the opportunity to deny the widespread leaks and rumours to the effect that the Government are about to go back upon their specific manifesto promises in respect of immigration? Does she agree with me that if such a retreat were to be effected, many people who voted Tory at the last election would feel disappointed and that others might even feel deceived?
  The Prime Minister: I confirm that the Government are not about to go back on their manifesto commitments. There will shortly be a White Paper laid before this House by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

  CABINET (COMPOSITION)
  Mr. Dubsasked the Prime Minister if she plans to announce any changes in the Cabinet.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Dubs: Has the Prime Minister not been informed of what happened in the House last night, when her Energy Ministers managed to score an own goal

  623
  by defeating the Governmen on the question of paraffin prices? When will the Prime Minister go and see Her Majesty and present a Humble Address so that our pensioners may once again get cheaper paraffin?
  The Prime Minister: I understand that, to put it mildly, there was something of a mix-up. That is an occupational hazard of Chief Whips on both sides of the House. I made it clear that those who got us into this mess must get us out of it.
  Mr. Adley: Will my right hon. Friend nevertheless reflect with gratitude, to return to the question, that, unlike her predecessor, she is at least in the happy position of being able to make changes from time to time if she wants to without being subject to outside poltical pressures?
  The Prime Minister: I do not have any particular personnel changes in mind at the moment.
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Will the right hon. Lady ask her Cabinet colleagues to explain, since she and they keep reiterating that public expenditure is not to be reduced, why so many hospital wards, hospitals, children's homes, old people's homes, community centres and day centres are being closed in the biggest act of Tory vandalism for decades?
  The Prime Minister: I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would now and then look at the articles written by the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, which pointed out that, when more money is taken out on pay, there is less to spend on other things.

  PLANNING REGIONS (EMPLOYMENT)
  Mr. Stoddartasked the Prime Minister if she will estimate the number of jobs lost in each planning region of the United Kingdom as a result of the policies of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: The number of unemployed, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, has in fact declined by 24,000 since this Government took office.
  Mr. Stoddart: Is the right hon. Lady aware that instead of answering the question
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  she has evaded the issue? Is she aware that her attitude towards unemployment is both complacent and fainthearted? Is she further aware that her regional policy will result in a greater concentration of industry in the so-called "golden triangle" of the EEC and that the removal of exchange controls this week will further exacerbate that position?
  The Prime Minister: The greatest threat to jobs in this country is extravagant pay claims which go beyond what is warranted by increased productivity. When that happens, costs and prices go up and jobs will disappear.
  Mr. Gummer: Will my right hon. Friend seek to encourage Labour Members from the regions to explain in the regions that only by increased productivity and moderated wage demands can we solve our unemployment problems?
  The Prime Minister: I cannot emphasise this too much. We shall get increased prosperity only through increased productivity. We shall avoid higher inflation and higher unemployment only with wage demands which are related to output.
  Mr. Allen McKay: Does the Prime Minister agree that the extravagant wage claims that she talks about are caused by the policies of her and her Government and the attitude that they took towards the last Government, beginning with the Ford claim?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Pay claims that go beyond productivity can be allowed only at the expense of others, and those others are such people as old age pensioners, who cannot use industrial muscle on the same scale.
  Mr. Michael Brown: Will my right hon. Friend accept the congratulations of the country on three consecutive reductions in the unemployment figures? Will she further accept that part of the reason is that the Government have taken such a robust attitude on regional policy?
  The Prime Minister: We shall achieve genuine improvements in the job position only when we have increasing numbers of small businesses expanding. Our policies and strategies are directed to that end.

NORTHERN IRELAND (GOVERNMENT)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Humphrey Atkins): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement about the government of Northern Ireland.
The Queen's Speech declared that the Government's intention was:
"to seek an acceptable way of restoring to the people of Northern Ireland more control over their own affairs".
Since taking office in May I have for that purpose had wide-ranging discussions in the Province and a series of private meetings with leaders of the main Northern Ireland political parties represented in this House. My discussions and meetings have confirmed the Government's view that it is right to transfer back to locally elected representatives some at least of the powers of government at present exercised from Westminster. The political parties in Northern Ireland in their election manifesto asked for that, and there is widespread support for it in the Province. There is, moreover, an awareness that such a restoration of political responsibility can be brought about in Northern Ireland only by all parts of the community recognising and respecting the interests of others.
It will in due course be a matter for Parliament to decide, on proposals put to it by the Government, what kind of powers and responsibilities are to be transferred to elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland and through what kind of institutions they are to be exercised. The Government wish, however, to put forward proposals that, so far as possible, have the agreement of the people of Northern Ireland.
We intend therefore to convene a conference of the principal political parties in Northern Ireland to seek the highest level of agreement that we can on proposals for a transfer of responsibility, which the Government might put before this House in due course. We are, for that purpose, preparing a consultative document, which will be laid before Parliament, to serve as the basis of the conference.
The document will set out the range of powers and responsibilities that the Government,
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for their part would be prepared to see transferred from Westminster. It will set out as options for consideration by the conference a number of ways in which the transferred powers might be exercised, and in each case state what the Government would regard as reasonable and appropriate arrangements to take account of the interests of the minority.
Responsibility for law and order in the Province, which as I indicated in reply to questions earlier today, remains the Government's overriding priority in Northern Ireland, would not be transferred.
I shall shortly be approaching the party leaders concerned to discuss with them the arrangements for a conference to be convened as soon as possible—I would hope, by the end of November.
Our aim will be to secure from the conference, drawing on suggestions in the consultative document, workable and acceptable arrangements for restoring to the people of Northern Ireland greater responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs, which we can then recommend to this House in fulfilment of our commitment in the Queen's Speech.
Mr. John: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that we on the Labour Benches feel that it is time for decisions rather than discussions? Nevertheless, if the Government judge that such a conference is a possible means of progress we shall not seek to obstruct or discourage it. I caution the right hon. Gentleman however, that further delaying decisions until the new year will make the intervening period fraught with danger.
May I put four points? First, what soundings have been taken, from those likely to be invited, on the acceptability of the proposals? I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman wishes for acceptance from all parties concerned, but what are the contingency plans if one or more of them refuse to attend?
Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that any discussion document that is issued promotes flexibility and does not harden attitudes? If it encouraged participants to hold out for the option that may be their ultimate ambition rather than what is acceptable and possible today, it would be detrimental.

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Thirdly, reports will appear in the newspapers of the progress of the talks. Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore not merely report to Parliament at the end of the talks but keep us informed of progress during the talks?
The success of such talks is closely bound up with the security position in Northern Ireland. Not only is that position causing grave anxiety; there is deep concern and widespread criticism of the control, or apparent lack of control, of security policy. The appointment of Sir Maurice Oldfield has not yet yielded any apparent benefits. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that that appointment has blurred or clarified the control?
Finally, will the right hon. Gentleman reiterate to the House that responsibility for security rests where it always must—on an elected Secretary of State responsible to this House for the discharge of his duties?
Mr. Atkins: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for welcoming our move. I agree that the time is coming for decision, but the Government wish to put proposals before Parliament with the knowledge that we have the agreement of the people to whom they will apply. That cannot be done without discussion. I have had a series of discussions throughout the summer and the moment has arrived for those discussions to become more formalised and for the parties to sit down together.
We shall certainly be flexible. The proposals that we shall put before the conference and before Parliament will contain a wide variety of suggestions for ways in which we might move forward. The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that a high degree of flexibility, within certain limits, is essential, and we shall seek to ensure that.
I am prepared to report to Parliament whenever Parliament wishes me to do so on the progress of the conference and, I hope, before too long, on the conclusions.
Every political party in the Province less than six months ago said that it wanted to make progress in the political field, and I feel sure that that is so today. The conference is a way of making progress that I believe will commend itself to the House, and it stands the best chance of enabling the Government to establish the highest level of acceptance.
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The hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that the security situation is in no way satisfactory. Whatever takes place at the conference, the present security position will remain unaltered. We do not intend to invite the House to approve arrangements to transfer responsibility for security away from this Government.
Mr. Molyneaux: Does the Secretary of State recall that I have constantly made clear to him, privately and publicly, that the Ulster Unionist Party will not engage in time-wasting exercises and window dressing of that type? Is he also aware that we shall, however, carefully and reasonably consider, in the Northern Ireland Committee or on the Floor of the House, any proposals brought forward to give effect to the specific suggestions and commitments in the Conservative Party manifesto?
Mr. Atkins: The proposal is not time-wasting but is designed to secure agreement as early as possible. A variety of suggestions will be put before the conference and before the House—suggestions that should be discussed by the people who will be most affected, namely, the political parties in Northern Ireland.
We clearly have to discuss together how we can move forward. I know that the hon. Gentleman is anxious to move in a broad direction, and naturally that will be one of the directions that we shall discuss and upon which we shall seek the agreement of everyone who wants it.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the right hon. Gentleman enlarge upon what he means by a conference of principal political parties? Does he mean all the political parties in Northern Ireland? How many will he invite to the conference? Will he give us the timing of the document? Will the House be able to debate the document first? Will the Northern Ireland Committee be able to debate the document first? After the House has given its opinion, the Committee having deliberated upon it and given its opinion, should we then be able to proceed? Why cannot we have a conference of elected representatives so that people can come with a mandate from the people to speak for the people. Is the Secretary of State aware that for 50 years there was a devolved Government in Northern

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Ireland which did far better in terms of security than this House has done?
Mr. Atkins: It would be my intention to invite to the conference representatives of the four main political parties in Northern Ireland—the hon. Gentleman's party, the Ulster Unionist Party, the Social Democratic and Labour Party, and the Alliance Party, which represent between them over four out of every five voters. I hope to be able to place the document before the House within two weeks. Of course, if the House wishes to debate it either on the Floor or in Committee that would be a matter to be decided. I should be most happy to deal with it and I know that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House would be happy to listen to any representations.
Mr. Fitt: Is the Secretary of State aware of the findings of the Cameron report in relation to the onset of the present troubles, wherein it was proved conclusively that local authorities in Northern Ireland were responsible, to a great extent, for the onset of the present troubles? Is he further aware that the minority population in Northern Ireland appears very suspicious about any talks, undertaken in any circumstances, about restoring powers to local authorities, that it feels that the last Government increased the number of parliamentary seats, and that the present Government will restore a Unionist ascendancy by returning powers to the local authorities? Will the Secretary of State consult the Prime Minister and say clearly whether there is any truth in the statements that they have been put about by the Leader of the Official Unionist Party and his colleagues that they have been given an undertaking that under no circumstances would there be a devolved Government in Northern Ireland during the lifetime of the present Parliament?
Where does the right hon. Gentleman get the confidence that enables him to say that there is widespread support for a measure of this kind? Does he not recognise that on Tuesday last week a resolution was circulated throughout district councils that he had to contradict? Is he aware that the wording of that resolution was to the effect that there is no hope of finding any agreement to
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restore local authority powers to Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins: I think that the hon. Gentleman is exaggerating. He says that there is no hope. I believe that there is hope. I say that for two reasons. First, as I said in my statement, every political party fought the last election on the basis that it wanted to see political advance. Secondly, I am glad that I have detected an awareness among the people with whom I have talked that such a move must be an advance—that we cannot go backwards to systems that have been tried and have failed before. They believe that any advance means respecting the point of view of people with whom one does not necessarily agree on everything.
If there is that spirit, as I believe there is—I have detected it—it seems to me right that Her Majesty's Government, in pursuance of their objectives, should take advantage of it, and that we should call the parties together and seek the highest level of agreement about how we can advance and what we can recommend to the House.
Mr. Mates: I warmly welcome the proposals for talks to try to bring the parties together. However, will my right hon. Friend take a leaf out of the book of my noble Friend the Foreign Secretary and so organise the conduct of this conference that those whose contribution to it is purely negative—people who are purely against a coming together in any way—cannot wreck it by these tactics?
Mr. Atkins: I do not believe that responsible political leaders in the Province want to wreck an opportunity to make an advance that they all say they wish to see. Therefore, I have every reason to hope that the parties will come together under my chairmanship and will engage in constructive discussions to see how far we can get agreement and how Her Majesty's Government can best recommend proposals to this House.
Mr. Grimond: Will the Minister make it clear whether he will go ahead with the conference regardless of the success or failure of his talks with the parties? Are the two things to be put in train at the same time, or are the talks with the parties to determine the agenda and the timing of the conference? When does the Minister hope the conference will meet?
Mr. Atkins: I said in my statement that I hoped that the conference would meet about the end of November. That is a matter that I wish to discuss with those who will be there along with the arrangements about where it will meet, and so forth. I hope to be able to publish and put before Parliament in just over two weeks the discussion document that will form the basis of the conference and give the parties time to study and consider it, with a meeting perhaps a week later, which would bring us to about the end of November. That is the time scale that I have in mind, although I am putting no definite date upon it until I have discussed with those who will be there what would be the most convenient date
for everyone.
Mr. Hal Miller: In view of the attitude of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) who represents the SDLP, will my right hon. Friend consider two points? Will he consider a time limit on the consultations on his document within which some agreement ought to be reached, or, failing that, at least for making a start on devolving the powers to area boards of elected representatives?
Mr. Atkins: Since the conference will be about ways of devolving powers—of returning powers to the people of Northern Ireland—I think that it would be a mistake to do anything in advance of the conference. It would not be helpful to put a time limit on the conference before it has even begun. Naturally the Government believe the quicker the better, but to put a terminal date would be less helpful rather than more.
Mr. John rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I will call the Front Bench again when I have given a fair hearing to Back Benchers.
Mr. English: The Secretary of State said that he was prepared to consider anything that was acceptable to both communities in Northern Ireland. Is he aware that there is one subject upon which the opinion polls show a majority of both communities to be in agreement, although their leadership may not necessarily be so? Is he prepared, apart from this, to consider the question of desegregating education in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins: I think that the hon. Gentleman misheard me. I did not say, nor could I possibly say, that we will be prepared to consider everything that is acceptable to the parties in Northern Ireland, because in the end it is for Parliament to give its approval to what the Government may put before it. The ultimate decision on what is done and how rests here. Therefore it is clearly not only right that Her Majesty's Government should seek to find agreement between the parties but should seek to prepare proposals which they believe the House will accept. It cannot, therefore, be limitless.
Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: Will my right hon. Friend be putting forward a favoured proposal to the conference? Will he give an assurance that the manifesto's proposal for a regional council, arrived at after so much heart searching and hard thinking, has not been left out of his thoughts?
Mr. Atkins: The answer to the first part is "No, Sir", and to the second part, I think, "No, Sir", as well, although that rather depends on how my hon. Friend has worded it. In other words, that proposal will certainly be among those considered.
Mr. Flannery: Will the Secretary of State accept that many of us hope that any political initiative, no matter how small, will bear fruit? Will he, however, accept that the polarisation of voting recently could have caused more intransigence among certain people in Northern Ireland? When the Secretary of State talks about political advances, does he agree that certain people believe that political advance is the ability to fasten the yoke around the necks of the minority community even more firmly? That was the cause of the trouble last time. Will he therefore ensure that the conference gives further hope to the minority community and does not maintain a situation which makes their already low spirits even more desperate?
Mr. Atkins: I recognise—I said so in my statement—that the people of the Province recognise that there will be no political advance unless people are prepared to respect and recognise the interests of other people. The proposals that we shall put before this House, and

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the conference, will do just that. He is quite right. The Government cannot, and will not, put forward for the consideration of the House any proposals of the kind that he described, which would give total dominance by one part of the community over another. Of course we would not do that.
Dr. Mawhinney: Does my right hon. Friend accept that his statement today will be a disappointment to a great many people? Does he recognise that there is an increasing number of people who feel that the determination of successive Governments to have talks, and talks about talks, is understood by many to be a rationale for doing nothing, or, even worse, a reason for not knowing what to do? Will he accept that there is increasing unhappiness among the people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—particularly Northern Ireland—that successive Governments gave vetoes to Northern Ireland politicians over the action of Her Majesty's Government, even though those politicians are known to be not the most flexible men in this House? Would the Secretary of State accept that the problem of Northern Ireland is one for the United Kingdom and that the Government since May have shown great determination in governing in other areas? A similar determination to govern Northern Ireland would be greatly welcomed.
Mr. Atkins: I do not think that many people will be disappointed with a proposal to call together the political leaders of Northern Ireland to seek ways, by agreement, of advancing in a direction in which not only they but the Government and this House wish to go. It seems to me that this is the course most likely to produce a answer satisfactory, not only in Northern Ireland but to this House. I emphasise again that it is Parliament which has the final say about what is done in Northern Ireland. I am anxious to recommend to Parliament measures which, I believe, have a high degree of acceptance in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Stallard: As a member of one of the parties that have not yet been consulted, it is difficult for me to discuss these proposals. Does the Secretary of State not accept, in view of the opinions already expressed following his summer
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talks, coupled with the expressions that we have heard today from three out of four of the parties concerned, that the conference is doomed to fail even before it starts unless he has in mind some kind of Lancaster House type conference. Does he seriously believe that he is doing the situation in Northern Ireland any good by holding a conference that seems doomed to failure from the very start?
Mr. Atkins: What a gloomy fellow the hon. Gentleman is. Why should he assume that the conference is doomed to failure straight away? Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that all the political parties concerned have expressly said that they want to make a political advance? This is a way of seeking how best to do that. I cannot believe that if that is what they really want to do—and I believe it is so—they will turn down this opportunity.
Mr. Murphy: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that at no stage will the consultations be broadened to incorporate the leaders of any political party who give support to any kind of terrorist activity in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins: Under no circumstances will people who engage in, or support, terrorism be consulted.
Mr. McCusker: Is it the intention of the Secretary of State to allow those parties who will attend the conference to select their representatives? If that is so, is he aware that that could result in the conference being composed of people who not only have no mandate from the people of Northern Ireland but have been specifically rejected by the people of Northern Ireland during the past few months?
Mr. Atkins: This is one of the matters about which I intend to consult with the leaders of the parties immediately. We shall have to settle how many people come to the conference and where it happens. All those details must be gone into now.
Mr. Peter Robinson: Will the Secretary of State indicate to the House that should this conference ever arrive at a result, that result will be put to the people by way of a referendum?
Mr. Atkins: That is a matter which we can consider. I do not rule it out.

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It depends upon the measure of agreement reached and the popular support for it. If it seems necessary to judge popular support for it we will consider that course. In the end the decision as to what is done—what powers are devolved, and how, to Northern Ireland—is taken here.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call four more hon. Members. One of them has been rising continually.
Mr. Bradford: I have two questions for the Secretary of State. First, what does he mean by the "minority community"? Everyone knows that the fundamental problem in Northern Ireland is that there are two political philosophies which are irreconcilable. If by "minority community" the Secretary of State means a minority in terms of political philosophy he is trying to reconcile the irreconcilable and the conference would be a waste of time.
Secondly, will the Provisional Sinn Fein be involved in the conference? That is a registered political party and is the equivalent of the Patriotic Front in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins: The answer to the last part of the question is "No, Sir". In answer to the first part of the question, I was using a colloquial term to describe that part of the population which by history, politics or religion—or whatever it may be—forms part of what is generally thought to be the minority.
Miss Maynard: I welcome any initiative by the Secretary of State to move away from merely discussing the violence and get down to discussing some of the causes of that violence. I also welcome his view that we will not make political advance while old attitudes remain. Does the Secretary of State see any change in those political attitudes, and does he not agree that it has never been possible to maintain the present state of Northern Ireland except by various repressive laws? Will he consider widening the discussions to bring in the Government of Southern Ireland? I make this point since we are speaking about a political advance. There can be no political advance for the minority community while
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it is kept within the boundary of the present Northern Ireland State. It is, in effect, made into a political minority in Northern Ireland, whereas it would be in the political majority in the country as a whole.
Mr. Atkins: The future arrangements for governing Northern Ireland are a matter for the people of the Province, for the United Kingdom, and for Parliament; they are not the responsibility of the Dublin Government. Of course, the Dublin Government are interested and no doubt they will keep a close watch on what goes on. But there can be no question of their engaging in these discussions.
As for the hon. Lady's point about security, I must tell the House that political advance—or even the prospect of it—will not solve the security question, because those who are responsible for the violence in Northern Ireland will, if anything, feel that this move is a threat to them. They will not, I fear, relax their efforts to disrupt society in Northern Ireland. We must be just as resolute in seeking to control violence and bring terrorism down from its present level. I do not hold out to the House any hope that the security situation will be solved by the proposal that I have put before the House.
Mr. Winnick: While commending the intention to hold the conference—whose chances of success do not seem very high, judging by the exchanges today—may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he accepts that there is a clear limit to the patience of the people in Great Britain towards the whole Northern Ireland situation?
Mr. Atkins: The hon. Gentleman must speak for himself. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. It is our business to seek to protect the people of the United Kingdom wherever they may be, and to ensure that the way in which they control their affairs is satisfactory from everyone's point of view.
Mr. Tom Ellis: Notwithstanding recent history, one assumes that one of the issues before the conference will be some kind of elected assembly or council. Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that in spelling out such a proposal he will

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link with it firmly some kind of proportional representation system of election?
Mr. Atkins: That will be one of the matters that it would be proper to discuss at the conference. As the House knows, most elections in Northern Ireland—not all—are held under a system of proportional representation. It is a matter that I would wish to discuss with those concerned.
Mr. John: May I return to the question of the consultative document and serve notice that it will be the wish of the Opposition and, I think, of many other hon. Members, that it should be debated on the Floor of the House before it is put to the parties in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. So does my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, whose concern it principally is.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Speaker: Mr. St. John-Stevas—Business Statement.
Mr. James Callaghan rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is a statement, not a question, today.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 29 OCTOBER—Debate on a motion to take note of the report of the Royal Commission on gambling. Cmnd. 7200, under the chairmanship of Lord Rothschild.
Motion on EEC documents 7577/79, and the updated memorandum of 23 October on oil purchases: 5666/79, 7662/79, 7721/79 and 7722/79 on energy; and 7855/79 on coal.
TUESDAY 30 OCTOBER—Second Reading of the European Communities (Greek Accession) Bill.
At Seven o'clock, the Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration.
Motion on the Ministry of Overseas Development (Dissolution) Order.
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WEDNESDAY 31 OCTOBER—Debate on procedure.
Motion on the Family Income Supplements (Computation) (No. 2) Regulations.
THURSDAY 1 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Shipbuilding Bill.
Motion on the EEC (Definition of Treaties) (International Wheat Agreement) Order.
FRIDAY 2 NOVEMBER—Debate on London, which will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
MONDAY 5 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Education (No. 2) Bill.
Mr. Callaghan: I gather that the Education (No. 2) Bill has not yet been published. The right hon. Gentleman will run it very fine unless the Bill is published very soon, because it is a big and important measure. Will it be published in time to allow us proper consideration of it before Second Reading?
Secondly, I understand that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is going to Brussels next week to discuss the question of fisheries. Will the Leader of the House convey to him that he will have our support if there is no weakening of the present stand in relation to the 12-mile limit, and that we expect him to maintain that stand? Will the Leader of the House also ask the Minister to report to the House on his consultations as soon as he returns?
Thirdly, while the debate on procedure on Wednesday is a matter for the House as a whole, there is certainly one controversial issue—there may be more, but this one has been put to me by hon. Members. If the right hon. Gentleman is producing a series of proposals, will he indicate that they will not include a proposal to change the nature of the Adjournment debate? I understand that that would cause considerable upset. Can he indicate that he does not intend to do that?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: The Education (No. 2) Bill will be published tomorrow, thus giving the customary two weekends for consideration by hon. Members of a major Bill. I am fully aware of the need for hon. Members to have Bills in good time.
Secondly, I shall convey to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the messages of the

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right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and I am sure that he will be extremely grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's support. I am sure that the report will be a positive one in view of the support that is being given.
Thirdly, on Wednesday it is my intention to have a general debate on procedure and then table motions on a number of matters concerning Sessions and sittings. One of those motions will probably include proposals on the Adjournment arrangements as recommended by the Select Committee on Procedure, but of course it will be up to the House to decide whether to accept them, amend them or reject them.
Mr. Higgins: Does my right hon. Friend recall that before the recess he gave a hopeful response to a request for a debate on the tenth report of the Expenditure Committee—made as long ago as 1975—on the Charity Commissioners and their responsibilities, and the related Goodman report of a year later? Is it not quite wrong that the House should have had to wait all this time for an opportunity to debate the law on charities, which most certainly causes widespread concern both inside and outside the House? Can my right hon. Friend arrange a debate, if not next week at least before Christmas?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I sympathise With my right hon. Friend over the delay in debating these reports, but for the vast majority of that period I held no responsibility. I remain hopeful that the House will have an opportunity within a reasonable time to debate those two important reports.
Mr. William Hamilton: By what machinery does the right hon. Gentleman propose the renewal of sanctions against Rhodesia? During the procedure debate on Wednesday, will the right hon. Gentleman give some indication of his views on the appointment of the Scottish Select Committee and whether we shall have full time to debate that matter very soon?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: With regard to the sanctions against Rhodesia, I cannot add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal to the House earlier this week.
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Secondly, I am glad to be able to tell the hon. Gentleman that a motion will be tabled later today on the terms of reference for the Scottish Select Committee.
Mr. John Wells: May we be assured that during the visit to Brussels of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food there will not be any horse trading of fish for lamb? Equally, will the statement to be made make clear the position on the French attitude towards apple imports into this country?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Without following my hon. Friend into that mixed metaphor, I am sure that all the interests that he has mentioned will be well represented by my right hon. Friend.
Miss Richardson: In view of the considerable public disquiet about the question of jury vetting, which is also causing tremendous concern not only in the press but, I believe, among all Members of the House in terms of the infringement of the liberties of individual jurors who might be asked to serve—it might even cause such confusion that they might not want to serve—does not the right hon. Gentleman believe that we should have a debate on the matter?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I agree with the hon. Lady. It is a very important and serious matter. I do not know that I can promise an early debate, but I will raise the matter with my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor.
Mr. Kenneth Baker: I thank my right hon. Friend for finding time to debate procedure. Following his answer to the Leader of the Opposition, I understand that the debate will mainly be concerned with Sessions and sittings, matters that are important in themselves, as we all recognise. If we do not get round to discussing two important matters that the Select Committee on Procedure dealt with, namely, the scrutiny of European legislation by the House—which many people think to be imperfect and on which there are considerable recommendations by the Select Committee—and a Public Bill procedure which would allow Standing Committees to take evidence for up to three sittings, will my right hon. Friend find time in the new year to discuss these issues?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his encouraging remarks. I am anxious to make progress on all the proposals of the Select Committee on Procedure. As for the Public Bill procedure and the changes proposed, and the proposals on scrutiny, I need to consult widely among hon. Members to ascertain the view of the House. We now have many new hon. Members, and there was not the clear view in favour of the Public Bill procedure changes that there was on Select Committees. I want to have full discussions on Public Bill procedure and on the proposals for European legislation. At the same time, I am anxious to maintain the momentum of progress. It is right that there will be motions on Sessions and sittings. I hope to dispose of the eight reports of the Sessional Select Committee on Procedure, which have been hanging around for years. In that way we shall make a major step forward in rendering the procedures of the House more effective.
Mr. Ashton: Did the right hon. Gentleman hear the Prime Minister at Question Time, when the right hon. Lady said that those who got the Government into a mess last night had to get them out of it? Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that because of the decision taken last night hundreds of small corner shop retailers who are selling paraffin at 75p a gallon instead of 53p face a fine of £400? What will he do to clear up the chaos?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I heard what the Prime Minister said, as I was sitting next to her. My right hon. Friend was speaking quite distinctly. I took it that her remarks were addressed to the Patronage Secretary. I agree that the hon. Gentleman has raised a serious matter. There is confusion about the exact state of law. We intend to put it right at the earliest opportunity. That will occur when there is a Privy Council next week, when there will be a new order. That will be signed by the Secretary of State and laid before the House.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Will my right hon. Friend advise me when the Government propose to bring forward changes in the law on industrial relations? As our chief shop steward in the House, will he impress upon my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment the
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fact that many of us consider this to be an urgent matter?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am grateful for the trade union encomium from my hon. Friend. We hope to produce a Bill on trade union matters before Christmas.
Mr. Harry Ewing: Is it the intention that the Education (No. 2) Bill should cover the whole of the United Kingdom, or is it the intention to introduce a separate Scottish Bill? I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take account of the fact that it is only in the past two weeks that the circular asking for consultation with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has been issued. If it is the intention to include Scotland in the Bill that is to be published tomorrow, the Bill must have been drafted before the consultations were held.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: The Bill's main provisions will cover England and Wales but it will include some provisions concerning Scotland. I shall raise the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Mr. Madel: My right hon. Friend said that there will be a debate on London a week tomorrow. I ask that a Minister make a statement on the future of the third London airport. There are six sites in the South-East that are on the short list. That is causing not only planning blight but immense distress to those who live near the sites. May we have an early statement? Bedfordshire is affected and so, I gather, is Chelmsford.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I share a constituency interest with my hon. Friend. It would be desirable for a statement to be made soon, but it is important that all interests are consulted and the controversial issues examined thoroughly before any definitive statement is made by the Government.
Mr. Spearing: May I revert to the question raised by the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Baker)? The House will understand the right hon. Gentleman's reluctance to move on Public Bill procedure at this stage in the Session, but will he enlarge on his discussions about EEC scrutiny? Is he aware that there has been widespread dissatisfaction with the procedures for many years and

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that the Select Committee on Procedure drafted model new Standing Orders? Will he tell the House whom he is consulting and when his consultations will be finished? Is he aware that there will continue to be 20 or more Labour Members rising to speak on various orders until the procedure of the Scrutiny Committee is improved?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am anxious to make reasonably fast progress on these matters. However, I want to see how the procedure debate proceeds next Wednesday. Immediately after that I shall begin consultations on the other matters through the usual channels. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that in view of his interest in European affairs and his constructive efforts to improve matters he will be one of the first to be consulted.
Mr. James Callaghan: There is some uncertainty. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House how he proposes to conduct next Wednesday's debate. Will he put forward a series of propositions for decision next Wednesday? Will there be a series of debates, or one general debate without decision? What is the proposition?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the method of proceeding. The method that we used last time was quite satisfactory. There will be a general debate in which hon. Members may range widely over the subject matter. That will be followed at 10 o'clock by Government motions on a number of positive proposals. That will mean that the debate will not evaporate and that something will come at the end of it. It is my intention to lay tonight a number of proposals concerning the sessional reports and the recommendations of the Procedure Committee on Sessions and sittings so that hon. Members will have an opportunity to study them. Those matters will be voted on at 10 o'clock and onwards. Hon. Members will be free to table amendments to the motions.
Mr. Pollock: In view of the acute crisis of confidence facing the hill farming sector of the farming industry, especially in the North-East of Scotland, will my right hon. Friend please arrange for an early debate in the House on its anxious and pressing problems?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I shall give that matter serious consideration.
Mr. Canavan: May we have an assurance that the Scottish Select Committee will have far more than 11 members properly to scrutinise the diversity of Scottish Office functions? As the Labour Party had 44 of the 71 Scottish constituencies and a majority of the 86 seats on the Scottish Grand Committee, is not entitled by election and by precedent to a majority of the seats on the Scottish Select Committee?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: The hon. Gentleman raises matters that will be discussed through the usual channels. I imagine that the size of the Committee will follow the pattern of the other Select Committees. I shall never make the mistake of judging the contribution of Scottish Members by their quantity rather than by their quality.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call four of the hon. Members who are rising to ask questions of the Leader of the House. As I did yesterday for the Government side of the House, I shall call them from the Labour Benches.
Mr. Coleman: In view of the widespread concern about factory farming methods, will the right hon. Gentleman make time available for an early debate on the subject?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I share the hon. Gentleman's concern personally on the issue that he raises. I do not think that I can guarantee an early separate debate, but the issue may form part of the debate on agriculture.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Faulds.
Mr. Faulds: I have given up, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: I am much obliged.
Mr. Rooker: May I press the Leader of the House on the answer that he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Miss Richardson)? Will he give an undertaking that he will report back to the House on the consultations that he has promised he will have with the Lord Chancellor on the procedure for selecting juries? The House is maintaining a silence on the issue and there is doubt among citizens about the procedures of the jury

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service and what jurors are required to do. It will bring the law into disrepute if citizens start objecting to serving on juries.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I do not know whet her I have the means of reporting back to the House as such, but I shall consult the Lord Chancellor. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to table a question to me following my consultation, I shall be happy to answer it.
Mr. Cryer: Will the debate on Wednesday embrace the Select Committee on Members' interests and its composition? The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have taken a specific and sustained interest. If not, is he arranging for the matter to be debated in the near future?
As the right hon. Gentleman has already brought forward a debate on London, will he consider bringing forward in the early future a debate on West Yorkshire, especially a debate on the wool and textile industry, which has lost 6,000 jobs since January and is a matter of grave and serious urgency?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: There is a limit to the amount of time that can be set aside for these matters, but I shall certainly consider both the region mentioned by the hon. Gentleman and the industry. We have not had a general debate on London for some time, and it is due.
I do not know that the Committee on Members' interests will be specifically included within the terms of reference of the debate, but I am anxious to make progress on it. I have tabled a motion for the appointment of the Committee. If the hon. Gentleman could moderate the keen interest he takes in the matter perhaps we could make some progress.
Mr. Kilroy-Silk: If we cannot have the early debate called for by my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Miss Richardson), can we not at least have an early Government statement on the deplorable practice of jury vetting, which the right hon. Gentleman accepted as a serious subject, especially in view of the fact that it would not be surprising—it would be quite reasonable—if potential jurors, subject to the threat of being snooped upon by the police or private detectives, refused to serve on juries? That would be a serious situation and have calamitous
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consequences for our jury and judicial systems. Can we not have an early statement from the Government showing clearly and unequivocally that there will be an end to jury vetting?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am afraid that I cannot do that, as I do not have the departmental responsibility to go as far as the hon. Gentleman wishes. However, I shall pursue these conversations urgently with the Lord Chancellor. Indeed, other Law Officers will be consulted.
Mr. English: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the House said that he would pursue the issue with the Lord Chancellor. You will recollect, Mr. Speaker, that the Lord Chancellor somewhat misused his position in Cabinet to have his own subject—unlike that of any other Minister—excluded from the jurisdiction of the Select Committees of the House. He does not want matters relating to the civil law to be discussed in Committee. Could it also be made plain that as matters relating to the criminal law are the responsibility of the Home Secretary, and within the jurisdiction of our home affairs Committee the Leader of the House will do two things: he will consult the Home Secretary and he will tell the Lord Chancellor to keep quiet?
Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order?

MEMBERS' INTERESTS (DECLARATION)
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek to raise with you a point of order of which I have given notice both to yourself and to the Leader of the House. Owing to the late publication of the Official Report of our Sittings in July, this is almost the earliest opportunity of doing so. As long ago as 2 July the Leader of the House, in a written answer, said that the need for a declaration of financial interests when any hon. Member is asking a question at Question Time
"is best left to the discretion of hon. Members."—[Official Report, 2 July 1979; Vol. 969, c. 395.]
That statement could be interpreted as being at variance with what many other hon. Members and I understood to be the

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consistent ruling of the Chair, namely, that the declaration of financial interests is not required by the rules of the House when asking a question at Question Time.
You may consider, Mr. Speaker, that for the protection of all hon. Members, a ruling might be given which places this matter beyond doubt.
Mr. Spearing rose—
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman did me the courtesy of notifying me in writing that he was going to raise a point of order. I am armed with a reply. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will listen to my reply and consider where we go from there.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his customary courtesy in this matter. He is entirely correct in his belief that no declaration of interest is necessary in the circumstances that he described. This is not merely the result of rulings which have been made by my predecessors and myself. It stems from a resolution of the House of 12 June 1975 by which the House agreed that in relation to the disclosure of interests during any proceeding of the House, the term "proceeding" shall be deemed not to include the giving of any written notice, such as a question, or the asking of a supplementary question. Hon. Members are therefore under no obligation whatsoever to declare any interest during the course of Question Time.
Mr. Spearing: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was not aware of the point of order being raised, but as a member of the first Select Committee on Members' interests, which drew up the codes and made recommendations to the House, would I be correct in recalling that the endorsement of the House's view by that Select Committee was on the assumption that all hon. Members would complete the return of interests and send it to the Registrar so that it should be published?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I, too, must express my gratitude to the right hon.
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Gentleman for the courtesy of sending me a copy of his letter to you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, he went beyond the bounds of courtesy because he turned me into the Lord President in doing so.
I listened to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, with the grestest interest, and studied it. I see nothing inconsistent between what I said and what you said, Mr. Speaker, although of course you expressed it so much better than I could.
Mr. Powell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to you for your ruling, as I imagine is the House.
It could, as you understand, be taken that if a matter is left to the discretion of individual hon. Members—and that is the current ruling on the matter—that would have the effect of annulling the decision of the House, as you reminded us, that at Question Time the declaration of interests is not required.
Mr. Speaker: The position is quite clear now. There is no requirement upon hon. Members to announce their interests at Question Time.

MEMBERS' INTERESTS (DECLARATION)
  BILLS PRESENTED
    EDUCATION (No. 2)
    Mr. Secretary Carlisle, supported by Mr. Secretary Younger, Mr. Secretary Edwards, Mr. Norman St. John Stevas. Mr. Nigel Lawson, Dr. Rhodes Boyson and Mr. Neil Macfarlane, presented a Bill to amend the law relating to education: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed [Bill 57].
    CONSULAR FEES
    Sir Ian Gilmour, supported by, Mr. Leon Brittan, Mr. Adam Butler and Mr. Richard Luce, presented a Bill to re-enact with amendments so much of the Consular Salaries and Fees Act 1891 as relates to consular fees together with certain enactments amending that Act: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed [Bill 56].
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  BEES BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.27 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Jerry Wiggin): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I am quite clear that the subject matter of this Bill may give rise to much merriment, and no doubt will, but it is extremely important to those who keep bees and for the maintenance of a healthy bee population.
  The bee population is important not only for the production of honey but for the efficient pollination of agricultural and horticultural crops in Great Britain. The keeping of bees provides a livelihood or a hobby to many thousands of people. The threat to the health of British bees by imported diseases, and particularly infestation with the mite varroa Jacobsoni, has in recent years been of concern to many hon. Members. Bee-keeping trade associations and the National Farmers Union have expressed great anxiety about the possibility of the disease being introduced here. They have represented to us that the present legislation controlling imports of bees into Great Britain no longer gives adequate protection. The powers we are now seeking will give much greater flexibility in operating the controls and consequently much better protection.
  The bee disease which has brought about the concern is termed varroasis. This occurs when a bee colony becomes infested by the parasitic mite varroa Jacobsoni which preys both on adult bees and on the brood. Mites attach themselves to the bodies of bees and feed on their blood. This weakens, cripples or causes early death of the bees. The initial infestation involves few bees and few mites. Two of these tiny crab-like creatures would fit on the head of a pin, so early detection is somewhat difficult. However, an infestation can completely destroy a colony in up to five years.
  What makes this disease so serious is that at present there is no known cure. In countries where it has become established
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  varroa has caused great losses in the bee population. It has spread to many countries of the world, so far all countries from which we do not normally import bees. However, it is now spreading into Western Europe. West Germany is infested, and it is feared that the mite may spread into France and Italy, both major suppliers of bees to Great Britain. We have the good fortune to have the natural protection of the English Channel, and the only way that varroa is likely to spread into Great Britain is through imports of bees.
  Hon. Members may wonder why it is necessary for us to import bees at all. I should perhaps explain that imports usually take the form of queen bees attended by a few—six to 12—worker bees who look after her on the journey. Imported queen bees are needed in order to maintain stocks and to introduce desirable genetic material. For this purpose we look to countries with a more favourable climate than ours to breed bees. The import trade in bees is small—a tiny fraction of the British bee population annually. The total number of colonies of honey bees in Britain in 1978 is estimated at about 240,000, whereas imports numbered 6,000 queen bees, or 2·5 per cent, of queen bees. The fundamental deficiency of the existing legislation is that our frontiers are either open or shut to bees from particular countries. There is no means of adapting the rules so as to regulate imports according to the disease situation prevailing at any particular time. Nor do the present measures allow for the necessary very quick reaction to changes in the disease situation in exporting countries.
  It may assist the House if I explain in slightly greater detail how the present controls operate, how they are deficient in dealing with the new situation and how the proposed import licensing system embodied in the Bill would overcome the disadvantages. The Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1954 allows provision to be made by order to control imports in the following way. First, imports from particular countries or parts of countries may be prohibited. Second, imports not accompanied by a specified health certificate may be prohibited. Third, imports which in some other way do not comply with the provisions of an order—in particular as regards the containers used for

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  importation—may be prohibited. These are the basic safeguards now available.
  A major deficiency is the necessity to specify by order each and every country from which we wish to prohibit imports on account of a disease there. The Importation of Bees (Prohibition) Order 1979, made last May, prohibited imports from specified countries known to have varroa at that time. However, each time a disease is confirmed in an additional country it would be necessary to make a fresh order. There would inevitably be delay between confirmation of the disease and the coming into force of the order. Furthermore, it is the opinion of my legal advisers that the existing legislation would not support a complete ban on imports which might in future become necessary or desirable.
  A further deficiency of the existing legislation is that, under the 1954 Act, imports may be allowed subject only to being accompanied by a health certificate. Since 1955, orders under the Act have required imported bees to be certified free from major bee diseases—brood diseases, acarine, nosema, amoeba and apimyasis. These diseases are relatively easy to detect through microscopic examination. Even so, examination of samples of imported bees sent voluntarily to the Ministry have sometimes revealed disease. In 1978 varroasis was added to the list of diseases against which certification was required. In the case of this disease little faith can be placed in such certification because the mite can be present at a very low level—a few bees in many thousands—and can be exceedingly difficult if not impossible to detect. It needs only one gravid female to start an infestation. For the benefit of hon. Members who are not qualified in zoology, "gravid" means pregnant. The powers that we are seeking would not be so entirely dependent on health certification.
  The further main provisions of the 1954 Act on bees include examination of bees on importation and destruction without compensation for diseased bees or illegal imports. These provisions are incorporated in the Bill. We are considering carefully representations only recently received about compensation where unaffected bees might possibly have to be destroyed to create a cordon sanitaire round an outbreak of the disease.
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  Finally, the maximum penalty for an illegal importation of bees under the 1954 Act is a mere £20. This very small sum is out of all proportion when we consider the serious damage that could be done to the bee population by one diseased importation. We are therefore proposing to raise the amount to a maximum of £1,000, which is now the standard maximum amount for summary offences.
  I do not want to mislead the House about our disease situation. We are not entirely free of bee diseases in this country. The most serious are American foul brood and European foul brood. The Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1941, section 11, provides for the control, by means of orders, of bee diseases within England and Wales. Such controls are exercised by the Foul Brood Disease of Bees Order 1967.
  In Scotland, control of disease is at present on a voluntary basis. Examination of bees is carried out by the colleges of agriculture at the request of beekeepers. Should varroa ever enter Great Britain, despite the improved frontier controls in the Bill, similar controls to those for existing endemic diseases would be needed for all parts of the country. It is therefore proposed that the provisions of the 1941 Act should be extended to Scotland against such an eventuality.
  The penalty for contravening an order under the 1941 Act is as out of date as that under the 1954 Act. We propose to increase the existing sum from £50 to £1,000. We are taking the opportunity of incorporating all the previous provisions of the 1941 Act in the present Bill so that all the legislation on control of bee diseases will be in one Act in future.
  I come now to the main provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 grants to Ministers the power to make orders, subject to negative resolution procedure, for the purpose of preventing the introduction into or spreading within Great Britain of pests and diseases affecting bees. The regulatory controls relate not only to bees but to combs, bee products, hives, containers, appliances and other things associated with the bees. These miscellaneous items are covered because they might be potential disease risks as well as bees themselves.

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  Orders may make provision with respect to any of the matters specified in the schedule to the Bill. The schedule is therefore an important part of the Bill. It lists types of control that have been found indispensable in the past both in combating bee diseases within this country and in dealing with imported bees. It allows for the securing of information about bees and bee diseases, for the marking of hives or containers for identification, for treatment of bees and for cleansing and disinfection. It provides for definition of time of importation, for recovery of costs and for incidental and supplementary matters. Most importantly, it provides for an import licensing system to be set up.
  We intend to have a general prohibition on the import of bees except when they have been granted an import licence. Such licences could be general or specific, conditional or unconditional. They would be issued by the appropriate Minister or a specially authorised person. It is envisaged that general licences—the contents of which would be widely publicised—might be granted for imports from countries which we believe to be free from varroa and which are unlikely to become infested because of their geographical situation and their own stringent import laws. Specific licences might be issued for other importations on individual application, based on the prevailing health condition—which could be investigated at the time if necessary—in the country of origin. If a country were infested with varroa, no such import licence would be issued. Import licences could be modified or revoked at short notice whenever changes in health status demanded it. The vast majority of imports would come in under the general licences, and we do not see these measures as placing heavy additional burdens on bee importers. Consultations are taking place with the bee keepers' associations and the NFU on the detailed measures for inclusion in the importation order and the licences to be issued under it.
  I should also mention that clause 1 allows for different provision to be made for different areas. The control of endemic diseases within the country is dealt with differently in Scotland at present. It is not proposed to change this unless a serious disease situation, such as varroa invasion, demands it. Subsections
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  (3) to (6), which largely repeat the provisions of the present legislation, give an authorised person power to examine and take samples of bees and other things subject to an order and to destroy them or cause them to be destroyed if they are infected or have been exposed to infection. He may also destroy or cause to be destroyed any illegally imported bees. These are all necessary measures for preventing the spread of disease. As in the present legislation, no compensation is to be paid for bees thus destroyed.
  Subsection (7) provides for penalties for offences. As I have explained, these are now to be set at a level more appropriate for today.
  Subsection (8) provides for Ministers' expenses to be defrayed out of money provided by Parliament.
  Clause 2 gives an authorised person power to enter, on production of his authority, if required, anywhere where he has reasonable grounds for supposing there are or have been bees subject to control under an order. This power of entry is not a new one except in so far as it applies to imports. Bee keepers generally recognise the importance of keeping clear of disease and are very willing to co-operate by allowing inspection of their bees.
  Customs and Excise is our first line of defence against illegal imports, but the powers may be needed to follow up imports which have passed through Customs and which are considered a disease risk. A penalty of £200 is provided for obstructing an authorised person.
  The only further explanation that I need to give the House concerns the definition of bees. Hon. Members will have noticed that there is no definition given in the Bill. In the legislation in force at present, bees are defined as honey bees—apis mellifera—which are the type of bee kept commercially in this country and in many others. However, bee diseases, including varroa, can be carried by other types of bee, so although imports of other types may be a very rare occurrence, we thought it prudent not to restrict the scope of the Bill to honey bees but to allow it to cover all types of bee.
  Finally, clause 5 gives the title—the Bees Act 1979. If this it not quite the shortest Bill of the season, at least we claim it has the shortest title.

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  British bees have so far escaped the threat from varroa. It is our job to see that they continue to do so and I believe that this Bill will provide the necessary controls, with the necessary flexibility, to enable this to be done. If varroa spreads to France, one of our main suppliers of bees, we still have the English Channel to protect us.
  Mr. Michael Ancram: I should like to ask the Minister, who has already spoken about the English Channel as a boundary difficult for bees accidentally to cross, whether he has considered the Republic of Ireland, and whether the same sort of control exists in the Republic. If not, is there not a danger of bees imported into the Republic of Ireland flying across the boundary into Northern Ireland and then being imported into this country?
  Mr. Wiggin: My hon. Friend will be pleased to learn that my ever vigilant Department has already thought of that. If he studies the Bill in detail, he will find that the provisions relating to Northern Ireland are slightly different and are dealt with separately. The truth is that bees have no respect for boundaries. If the disease spreads to Southern Ireland and steps are not taken, however many laws we pass, there is a great danger of infestation in Ulster. But let us hope that our Irish partners in the Community will take note of what we have done and adopt similar measures.
  I was on the point of saying that if varroa were to spread we would still have the English Channel to protect us, whereas France, of course, would be unprotected from the disease if it were to come from West Germany. We do not believe that we should rely entirely on our natural advantage in this matter; we think that we should reinforce control by ensuring that our import legislation is as effective as possible in protecting our bee population. I know that that view is shared by our bee keepers, farmers and growers who rely on bees to pollinate their crops and orchards. Indeed, bee keepers' associations have demanded that the strongest possible protective measures are taken at the frontiers to safeguard their bees. The strength of feeling is such that some have even demanded a complete import ban. I do not think
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  that such stringent measures are justified in the present situation, but we shall continue to be vigilant.
  I commend the Bill to the House in the confidence that the provisions will meet bee keepers' wishes for considerably strengthened controls against new bee disease being introduced here and against adding to the stock of endemic disease.
  4.45 p.m.
  Mr. Gavin Strang: As the Parliamentary Secretary has indicated, the Bill is of immense importance to bee keepers throughout the United Kingdom—but the House will agree that it is not one that should take up a great deal of time. It would be more appropriate and effective for us to probe some of the contents of the Bill in Committee.
  We should not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of the people who keep bees do so for recreational reasons, if I may use that phrase. Taking 40 hives as the break point, there are only about 500 commercial bee keepers, as opposed to the total of 45,000 bee keepers for Great Britain.
  The Parliamentary Secretary has explained the severity of the disease known as varroasis. It is lethal, and in the course of about three years it can wipe out a hive completely. I commend to the House an excellent little booklet produced by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, outlining the nature of varroasis.
  I hope that, whatever cuts the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues are to make in the Ministry's support for the industry, they will not cut the efficacy of the Agricultural Development and Advisory Service or the research work carried out in this country. The right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), when he was Minister of Agriculture, did enormous damage to the National Agricultural Advisory Service, as it was at that time. I hope that that mistake will not be repeated by the Ministry, because it took the advisory services about five years to recover from that terrible survey of the last Conservative Government.
  The Parliamentary Secretary has adequately explained the reason for the Bill—that we have import controls but that they are not satisfactory and that it is necessary to have a new system. It may be necessary to have a complete ban

  657
  on the import of bees. Certainly it will be necessary to specify the countries from which we import them, as opposed to the countries from which we do not import them. I understand that we have power at present only in the latter respect.
  There is an important Community aspect, as there always is when we are talking of restricting imports into the United Kingdom. I am advised that bees are animals classified under article 36 of the Treaty of Rome. Since there is no regime for bees, there is, of course, no need to be concerned about any EEC edicts—if I may use the somewhat unfortunate phrase of the Prime Minister. There is no need, therefore, for any consultation. We can simply go ahead and enact the measure.
  Without wanting to be too presumptuous, I should like to give a piece of advice to the Parliamentary Secretary. Article 36 of the Treaty of Rome is the article that enables us to introduce measures, within the Community, to restrict the importation of animals—bees in this case—for disease reasons. All sorts of livestock are involved. Indeed, we are able to make similar restrictions for plants. My experience is that there are times when we are under pressure from the Community to have somewhat less stringent import controls in these matters than we would be inclined to have ourselves.
  I am not suggesting that successive British Governments have been totally blameless, but our record is better than that of the other Governments, and certainly better than that of a close neighbour. Some of these Governments have on occasion used measures of import control apparently for disease when really they have been commercially motivated. We must not allow ourselves to be bullied. The last Government were very firm on this, and we always won at the end of the day. We must never allow ourselves to be moved from our judgment of what is the right decision in relation to these import controls.
  The reason for that, and the reason why we win these arguments, is that it is an asset to the Community, and not just to us in Britain, to have a zone which is disease-free. Therefore, even in the context of bees, we shall be doing the Community a service if we can maintain
  658
  our bees free from disease. As the Parliamentary Secretary has explained, it is largely because of the situation in West Germany that the Government—the last Government supported this—are bringing forward this measure.
  In that context I think that the question put by my neighbour, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Ancram), was well judged. The Government should go somewhat further than the Parliamentary Secretary indicated and have discussions with the Irish Republic. Let us make Great Britain and Ireland, North and South, disease-free zones to ensure that we can keep them disease-free for the benefit of the Community as a whole. One does not know, but it may well be that one day France and Italy may have occasion to import queen bees from the United Kingdom.
  In conclusion, the Opposition support the Bill and wish the Government good speed. We shall facilitate the Bill's implementation at the earliest opportunity.
  4.50 p.m.
  Mr. John Wells: I declare an interest as I am the proud owner of one fairly inadequate and idle hive which produced about 20 lbs. of honey this year.
  I believe that all bee keepers will welcome this Bill. It is excellent and necessary. As Tories, however, we are frightened because of the introduction of more and more "nanny" legislation of various kinds. I do not believe that this is exactly the sort of legislation that would have gladdened the heart of my predecessor, Mr. Disraeli. At a time when we see swingeing cuts up and down the country in matters that are dear to the hearts to many of us, it seems unfortunate that the expenses incurred by any of the Ministers will be defrayed by Parliament—that is, any that the Ministers do not pay themselves. Indeed, they might have flowers in their offices at their own expense.
  To be serious about this important Bill, the Parliamentary Secretary said that the English Channel was our natural safeguard and protection against this new disease. However, we in Kent are in the premier fruit-growing area. To us, bees are of particular importance for pollination. If this disease spreads down through Germany into Belgium and the French coast, will we in Kent be at risk

  659
  from these bees coming in on the wing, as opposed to coming in a package? What will happen then?
  Although I made a caustic remark about "nanny" legislation, I am perturbed about clause 1(2), which says that these authorised people "may prohibit"—I extract certain words—
  "movement within Great Britain of bees"
  that "may have been exposed". Who is to say what may have happened? It is very imponderable and imprecise.
  I am a bee keeper in West Kent. There are many people around me with large orchards who have hives moved in and around their orchards. Indeed, bee keepers are often paid by fruit growers to bring their hives to the orchards. If there are to be vague prohibitions about movements because the bees may have been affected, that is too imprecise by half.
  In welcoming the Bill I have two anxieties. The first is the vagueness of clause 1(2), and the second concerns the statement that there is to be no compensation. I believe that that is unfortunate. Although the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) pointed out that there were perhaps only 40 serious commercial bee keepers in the country, the fact remains that if one of them has a large number of hives compulsorily destroyed, he would get no compensation. A man who sees a great herd destroyed because of foot and mouth disease gets compensation. Why should a person who has a great colony of bees destroyed not have compensation if it is his sole livelihood?
  4.54 p.m.
  Mr. Geraint Howells: Members on both sides of the House should support the Bill this afternoon. I honestly believe that bee keepers throughout Great Britain are in favour of the Bill. It is a step in the right direction.
  The increasing popularity of bee keeping as a hobby—I am not one of them—or as a part-time or full-time occupation, is evident from the letters that I have received in support of the Bill from various parts of Wales. I understand—it was mentioned by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells)—that the association of bee farmers has protested about
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  the element in the Bill which provides for the destruction of bees without the provision of compensation to the bee keeper. I have been told by the Department that this aspect of the Bill is simply a continuation of the status quo. I hope that when the Minister winds up he will clarify the position.
  Many bee keepers are particularly afraid at the moment that the pest varroa Jacobsoni may reach the United Kingdom and that a large number of bees may have to be destroyed. They hold the view that they should receive compensation in the same way as do farmers whose herds are compulsorily destroyed because of foot and mouth and any other disease that may come into this country. As I understand it, the Government's position is that the bees would eventually be destroyed by the pest in any case. I think it would help if the Minister clarified the position.
  It would help bee keepers to know whether in the future there is any way in which the bees can be saved, or whether they will be destroyed in any case. I hope that the Minister will clarify the position and put the minds of bee keepers at ease. As I said earlier, I believe that we should give our wholehearted support to the Second Reading of the Bill, and give it a free passage through the House.
  4.57 p.m.
  Mr. Barry Henderson: Following on from what my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells) said—one may now describe him as the "Kent bee keeper"—I am anxious about the fact that this is a fairly hefty piece of legislation for a relatively simple purpose. My impression is that by enacting this Bill, even if we do it with the assistance of the Opposition today, we would change nothing. Could the Minister confirm that that would be the position, and that nothing would happen unless he laid an order to implement one or other of the powers which the Bill gives him?
  In that connection, I am concerned that there does not appear, even now, to be any powers in the hands of the Minister to prevent the importation of bees if he felt that it were necessary. I should like to believe that there were at least plans afoot for taking the earliest opportunity provided by the Bill to give the Minister those powers, and that we

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  will not simply be asked to put the Bill through and then have nothing at all happen
  Finally, in this brief intervention, I welcome the intention of the Bill and, in all fairness, the recognition by the Opposition of its value. We want to get the Bill through as quickly as possible.
  5 p.m.
  Mr. Mark Hughes: I must first declare an interest as a bee keeper. One of the difficulties facing us is that it is easy to mock a Bill of this sort coming to the Floor of the House on a Thursday. When I listened to the intervention of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Ancram) earlier, I was moved irreverently to consider the problems of hot pursuit of a swarm of bees across the Irish border. Equally irreverently, I was moved to consider the problem of what we now call the B Specials, should that organisaton be recreated. Opportunities for such thoughts on the Bill are limitless. For instance, one could say that it is a "hiving off" Bill, or that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the freedom of movement of capital must be balanced by the introduction of the first phase of the alternate economic strategy, much beloved by the Tribune group, for selective import controls.
  However, it would ill become the House if we allowed the Bill to go through on that sort of frivolous level. At the basis of the Bill lies one of the problems that has been discussed by the Agriculture Committee of the European Parliament for the last four years, and it has been a constant difficulty. It is that those measures of animal health control and veterinary inspection that are wholly appropriate and proper to continental Europe are equally inappropriate and improper given our island situation.
  I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) raised the Community dimension, because it is quite clear that in this Bill the Government propose something that is wholly within the terms of our current Community obligations. We are not trying to stretch the Treaty of Rome or anything like that. It is essential that we retain this power over animal and bee health, whatever our Continental colleagues may wish to do. It would be wholly wrong
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  for us not to be given that right in the pursuit of animal health just because it is inappropriate to do something between France and Germany or Italy and France.
  I differ from the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells) in that I believe that there is a difficulty in respect of destruction of associated hives. If, over the winter, one has 10, 15 or 20 hives in close proximity, with the risk of inter-infestation, and one moves four or five hives into an orchard to assist with pollination, unless one gives to the inspectors the power to follow the hives from their original long-term site one may reduce their powers unnecessarily. The same occurs in respect of the heather flow later in the summer.
  This is clearly a Committee point, but it is necessary to grant the original power and to make certain in Committee that the wording is not so obstructive as to destroy the original purpose. Equally, I give warning to the Minister that in Committee I shall closely probe the position of such products as propolis and how far the accidental presence of propolis in imported bee products is covered by the schedule. My understanding is that it may not be covered adequately, but I may be wrong.
  Secondly, where one has comb honey in a jar with other honey, how far is that a manufactured product and how far is it a pure product? I may have read the schedule defectively, but I am not certain that we have the wording right. I should be grateful if that matter could be dealt with.
  When the Minister replies, perhaps he will inform the House whether "authorised persons" are the same persons who are already overworked and who investigate the possibility of American foul brood in existing hives. Will a different group of persons be authorised? How does one qualify them? If they suspect, what is the time scale between the suspicion of this particular condition and the decision to destroy both the particular hive and associated hive? With foul brood it is fairly simple, one put's one's nose over the hive and one can smell the darned thing. But with varroasis it is not that easy. Perhaps the Minister can give his attention to the time scale between suspecting the disease, analysing its

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  detailed presence and authorising destruction and compensation. We wholeheartedly welcome the Bill, but this is the sort of thing that if we get wrong we do a mischief.
  5.6 p.m.
  Mr. Bill Walker: I am particularly concerned, because this matter affects my constituency. Although there are few commercial bee farms as such, one of the largest in the country happens to be in East Perthshire. The Bill is important, because we are concerned not only with the bees but also with employment prospects in an area where employment is difficult to find.
  I think of the situation that could occur, because if this particular bee farm was instructed to destroy all the bees in the many hives that are located throughout the Highlands and elsewhere it could have an enormous effect on the economy north of Blairgowrie. The effect would be fairly dramatic and in that part of the country we are concerned that we look carefully and in detail at the numbers involved and the kind of compensation that would be required if such an order were carried out. I hope that the Minister will bear this in mind, because although bee keeping tends to be very much a part-time hobby, when it is carried on a commercial basis, as it is in East Perth-shire, it becomes important to the area in employment terms.
  That is a matter that I would like looked at carefully. We in Perthshire welcome the principle in the Bill. We think that it is a step in the right direction, because there is great concern at the effect that this disease could have in that part of East Perthshire. Therefore, we welcome the Bill and trust that the matters to which I have referred will be borne in mind.
  5.8 p.m.
  Mr. Wm. Ross: I rise to speak as an ex-bee keeper who had to give it up because I became allergic to the stings of the creatures. I also speak because, apparently, it is intended in due course to extend the provisions of the Bill to Northern Ireland, where legislation is in some respects different from what it is in Great Britain. It is different in that the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1941 in Great Britain gave
  664
  the Minister power by order to write for information, whereas the 1944 Act covering Northern Ireland made bee diseases notifiable. I wonder whether powers will be taken to make this a notifiable disease in the United Kingdom in the future.
  Of course, imports of bees are not covered in either of those earlier Acts, but the point was covered in the corresponding Acts of 1954 and 1955 relating to Great Britain and Northern Ireland respectively. The Bill appears to go further in a number of ways. For the first time it seems to give the Minister power to control the import of honey on the ground of bee diseases. This seems to be a very sweeping power and I wonder how it is intended that it will be exercised. The Bill says, in effect, that the Minister can do anything that he considers necessary, without paying compensation. I am not fully aware of the situation in England, Wales and Scotland in relation to compensation, but I know that at one time when there was a register of bee keepers in Northern Ireland, compensation was payable for the destruction of diseased bees and it was paid out in many cases.
  If compensation is being totally discarded for this new disease, is the Minister saying that the onus is entirely on the owner of the bee to insure his stock so that if he loses a few colonies he will not suffer grave financial loss? In passing, I must add that it is a reflection upon the changed value of money that a fine of £20 was sufficient in the early 1940s and it now takes £1,000 to ram the point home.
  I turn to the particular problems that will concern us in Northern Ireland in our relations with the Irish Republic. Over the years there has been a very happy relationship with the Republic in matters of animal health. Have any approaches been made to the Irish Government on these matters, particularly top try to resolve problems which might arise if similar legislation is not enacted in the Republic?
  No doubt the Minister has had consultations with bee keepers, but if he is still having such consultations will he tell us who represents the bee keepers? Does he accept only the bee keeping associations as representing bee keepers or does he accept representations from individuals? I am particularly curious, because sometimes

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  in the past money has come to bee keepers in the United Kingdom from EEC sources. It has been channelled to the various bee keeping associations and not all bee keepers belong to such associations. Therefore, they have not benefited. If such money should become available in the future will the Minister ensure that individuals can make applications for such funds rather than just the associations of bee keepers. The same might apply to funds made available, should this House think fit to pay compensation under this Bill.
  I return to Northern Ireland's problems. Can the Minister tell the House how the Bill will fit into the existing provisions in Northern Ireland? How does it differ from the existing legislation there? I understand that the existing legislation in Northern Ireland is different and, indeed, much tighter than that for Great Britain. Can the Minister give us some information on the changes that will be needed in Northern Ireland law, and also tell us when the provisions of this Bill will be extended to Northern Ireland and whether any existing enactment will be repealed and replaced by its provisions?
  5.14 p.m.
  Mr. Wiggin: With the leave of the House, I shall deal with some of the points that have been raised in this debate. I am grateful to hon. Members for universally welcoming the Bill. As a cynic I shall look at it doubly carefully in order to make sure that we are doing the right thing because there seems to be such unanimous agreement on its merits.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) can be assured that the Government intend to maintain the very high health standards for which this country is world renowned. We have no plans whatsoever for making economies in this vital field.
  On the question of the Irish Republic which he and one or two other hon. Members raised, we are in close touch with the Irish Government and we understand that the bee keepers of Southern Ireland are just as concerned about importation of diseases as the bee keepers of England, Scotland and Wales. Therefore, the Irish Government are under considerable pressure internally to carry out similar measures. In that way we hope that that problem will be resolved
  666
  My hon. Friend the Member for Maid-stone (Mr. Wells) referred to the Minister's expenses. I can assure him that the Public Accounts Committee will see that any expenses that I might be allowed to incur under this legislation are strictly confined to my activities in relation to the pursuit of the mite varroa Jacobsoni.
  A number of hon. Members mentioned the question of compensation. I shall give this question a few moments' attention because it is clearly worrying hon. Members. Compensation is not made available under this legislation, because it is considered that bees with a serious disease are, of themselves, clearly valueless. If they are not destroyed under the legislation, they will almost certainly die, anyway. The point about not paying compensation for illegal imports is reasonable. Obviously it is up to the importer to see that he has proper licences. There must be a proper penalty in the form of a fine to deter importers from importing illegally. We do offer the possible option of re-export unless the diseases of the bees preclude that. Of course each case will be treated on its merits.
  The destruction of diseased or illegally imported bees is unlikely to affect seriously the livelihood of the owner. Normally the disease only affects a small proportion of bees and an even smaller proportion is affected by the import provisions. Although small bee keepers may suffer a proportionately larger loss, the people concerned normally do not rely on bee keeping for their livelihood.
  The question of whether we intend to destroy hives of bees that have been associated with infected hives is under investigation. Although this Bill was published in July, we have received these representations only within the last few days. We shall look at this matter, because we are not certain whether it is even necessary. But having established that, the question of compensation will be given some thought.
  The point was made that there is a special organisation—Bee Diseases Insurance—which runs a scheme to insure bee keepers against their bees being compulsorily destroyed. That might be the best way of dealing with the problem.
  The question of movement across the Channel was mentioned by my hon.

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  Friend the Member for Maidstone. I have been informed that bees cannot fly that distance, but there is always a possibility of them getting across accidentally on a ship. That is why we are taking these powers to deal with any problem that may arise in this respect.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson) asked about the necessity for the legislation. Under present legislation every country concerned requires an order. This Bill requires orders to implement it and we hope to make one in time for the next bee-importing season next March.
  Finally, the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Hughes) raised the question of frivolity in discussing these matters. It it astonishing to find the number of terms in the English language relating to bees and bee keeping. It occurred to me in an irrelevant moment that I, too, am a worker looking after a queen bee. Perhaps at that point we could have an armistice on such puns.
  Mr. Mark Hughes: Has the Minister at any stage recommended the services of a commercial insurance company to the bee keepers of this country? If so, that is a dangerous course. I should be a little disturbed if the Minister specified a particular insurance company as having his ministerial blessing. I hone that I have misunderstood him, but I ask that he should check carefully what he said.
  However proper the cover that that company may offer, we must be careful that a Minister should not recommend the services of a private commercial insurance company to those for whom he has ministerial responsibility. I hope that the Minister will check what he has said.
  Mr. Wiggin: If my words could be interpreted as a recommendation, I accept the hon. Gentleman's strictures. I pointed out the existence of a specal private company to deal with insurance for bee diseases. I suspect that most hon. Members are not aware of the existence of that company. I hope that my remarks were not taken as a special recommendation. That would be wrong. I was speaking in the context of a solution to deal with the problem of compensation.
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  I am told that the company does not set out to make a profit. It has been set up specially as a co-operative insurance company for the bee keeping associations. I am not recommending the company, but merely stating its existence. I hope that the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Hughes) is happy with that.
  The hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Ross) mentioned EEC aid, but that is outside the parameters of the Bill. My Department will keep an eye on the matter, but we shall not be discussing it in the context of the Bill.
  When the Bill was being discussed, I urged upon the lawyers involved that we should include Northern Ireland in the measure, but apparently that is not the way that Northern Ireland legislation is dealt with. I understand that it is the intention of my colleagues in the Northern Ireland Department to ensure that the appropriate orders are enacted so that similar protection against the disease is given to the bee keepers of Ulster. However, I am not directly responsible for that aspect of the matter.
  I hope that the Bill will achieve speedy progress. We have got off to a good start and I am grateful to the Opposition for their co-operation. I hope that we shall be able to implement the provisions of the Bill in time for the next bee importing season, beginning in the spring of 1980.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  BEES BILL

    BEES [MONEY]
    Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
    Resolved,
    That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make new provision for the control of pests and diseases affecting bees, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred in consequence of that Act by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or by the Secretary of State—[Mr. Wiggin.]

  BAIL ETC. (SCOTLAND) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Commmittee), considered.
  BAIL ETC. (SCOTLAND) BILL
    Clause 1

      RELEASE ON CONDITIONS
      The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind): I beg to move amendment No. 5, in page 2, line 27 at end insert—
      '(5) In this section and sections 2 to 4 of this Act, references to an accused and to appearance at a diet shall include references respectively to an appellant and to appearance at the court on the day fixed for the hearing of an appeal.'
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): With this we are to take Government amendments Nos. 7 and 24.
      Mr. Rifkind: The amendments are essentially drafting amendments and introduce no new question of principle into the legislation. Their purpose is to ensure that in clause 1, as well as in clauses 2 to 4, a reference to an accused should also include a reference to an appellant. Clearly that is a sensible drafting amendment.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 2

      PROVISIONS SUPPLEMENTARY TO S/
      The Solicitor-General for Scotland (Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn): I beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 2, line 31 after 'Kingdom', insert
      ('being the accused's normal place of residence or such other place as the court may, on cause shown, direct)'.
      The amendment makes an alteration in the provisions of clause 2 as to what address shall be given by an accused person. For a long time, many people have rightly regarded it as wrong that an accused person could hide under the anonymity of an address that merely said "Care of the sheriff clerk's office". That resulted sometimes in persons who were not accused being confused with a person of the same name who was an accused person. While neither the victim nor the witnesses had the benefit of such anonymity, the accused did.
      670
      The matter was canvassed in Committee and the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) tabled an amendment then and for the Report stage that would have had the effect of excluding the sheriff clerk's office but would not have excluded an address that gave the same anonymity. The hon. Gentleman is unable to be here tonight, but he has spoken to me and has agreed that the Government amendment covers the purpose of his amendment and does so more effectively.
      If someone had grassed on others and it was desirable that his address should not be known or if a person did not live in this country or have a normal place of residence here, that could be explained to the court and such a person would be permitted to give an address other than his normal place of residence. The amendment is a great improvement on the present situation and I commend it to the House.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendment made: No. 7, in page 3, line I, leave out subsection (4).—[The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]

    Clause 3

      BREACH OF CONDITIONS
      Mr. Rifkind: I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 3, line 13, leave out 'in any case'.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this we are to take Government amendments Nos. 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 21 and 22.
      Mr. Rifkind: The amendments seem to be a substantial introduction into the legislation, but they all centre around a fairly straightforward change that was canvassed in Committee and which the Government undertook to consider.
      Under present legislation, if an accused person breaks a condition of bail, the court may impose a sentence of imprisonment only if it is imposing or has imposed a sentence of imprisonment in connection with the original offence with which the accused was charged and for which bail was granted.
      The hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) and the Scottish Council for Civil Liberties pointed out that in some respects that was an unfair

      671
      part of the legislation since the appropriate sentence for breach of a bail condition should depend on the seriousness of the breach and not on the sentence that the court might think appropriate in relation to the original offence. A breach of a bail condition might be extremely serious while the original offence was fairly trivial. Alternatively, the breach may be minor while the offence of which the accused is convicted is serious.
      The amendments seek to remove that potential anomaly and provide that the question whether imprisonment should be an appropriate sentence for breach of a bail condition should not depend on, or be connected with, the sentence that the court has imposed or is imposing in relation to the original offence.
      I am not sure whether when the SCCL raised the point it was aware that if its recommendation were accepted imprisonment would be made more available than it would otherwise have been. Before the amendment was introduced imprisonment could be imposed for breaches of a bail condition only if it was to be imposed for the original offence. The direct consequence of the views of the SCCL and the hon. Member for Garscadden is that the Bill has been toughened up. While the Government are willing to accept their views. I hope that the hon. Member is not too disappointed that the eloquence of his arguments has succeeded on this occasion.
      5.30 p.m.
      Mr. Donald Dewar: I have been provoked to my feet literally for 30 seconds by the Minister. I cannot speak for the Scottish Council for Civil Liberties. I imagine that the Council was well aware of what it was doing in making this recommendation. I certainly did. I would like to thank the Minister for looking at the problem and coming up with what seem eminently sound solutions. A simple point is involved. It was an extraordinary arrangement in the original Bill. I could not understand the reason for it. It seems a perfectly sound principle that an offence should be looked at on its merits and should not depend on the powers available to the court in relation to what may have happened on a totally different matter—namely the original
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      offence for which the offender was placed on bail. I recognise that a wider discretion is opened for sheriffs. That is a matter that individuals may regret. I still think that it is the right legal principle. I am glad that the Government have gone along with it.
      Mr. Harry Ewing: I join my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) in thanking the Minister for the consideration that has been given to this point. It would be a pity if, arising from this debate, the impression was given that the reason for the change in the Bill was to make imprisonment for breach of bail conditions more freely available. I do not think that this is the intention of the Minister or of the Bill. I think that the whole purpose of the change is to separate a breach of bail condition from the actual offence on which the accused person has been charged. I hope that sheriffs will feel that this discretion they have been given can be used with discretion and that they therefore need not have regard to the offence of which the accused has been charged when disposing of breach of bail conditions.
      Mr. Rifkind: I thank the hon. Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing) for his remarks. It is an indisputable fact that imprisonment will be more available than it would otherwise have been as a result of this amendment. This is a simple matter of fact. I am happy to emphasise that the Government would not wish to see imprisonment used more frequently than might be suitable because this provision has been introduced. Its purpose is solely to remove the anomaly that would otherwise have existed. I accept that it was on that basis that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) raised the matter in the first place. It is certainly on that basis that the Government have been willing to make this amendment and the various other amendments which seek to achieve the same purpose in other clauses of the Bill.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendment made: No. 9, in page 3, line 14, leave out from '(b)' to end of line 20 and insert:
      'imprisonment for a period—

      (i) where conviction is in the district court, not exceedinp 60 days; or

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      (ii) where conviction is in the sheriff court or in the High Court, not exceeding 3 months.'.—[Mr. Rifkind]

      The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I beg to move amendment No. 10, in page 3, line 27, leave out 'an unlimited' and insert 'a'.
      This is a very minor amendment. It removes the words "an unlimited" before the word "fine". The amendment has the excellent characteristic of shortening the statute by removing two unnecessary words. No statute should have unnecessary words. The words "a fine" in terms of other legislation mean an unlimited fine. There is perhaps the added advantage in removing those words that, if they remained, they would tend to suggest that fines should be large. If they are removed, the fine is not given any emotive suggestion. It is, therefore, I think, more likely to be appropriate.
      Mr. Harry Ewing: I welcome the amendment if only because we have at last found a lawyer in the person of the Solicitor-General for Scotland who is in favour of using fewer words. I always understood that advocates and lawyers charged their clients according to the number of words they used. I have a funny feeling that his own profession will complain bitterly about using fewer words.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendment made: No. 11, in page 3, line 28, leave out from '(b)' to 'imprisonment' in line 30.

    Clause 7

      INTERIM LIBERATION BY CONSTABLE OF PERSON CHARGED WITH OFFENCE AGAINST A PERSON UNDER 17 YEARS
      Amendments made: No. 13, in page 6, line 41, leave out 'in any case'.
      No. 14, in page 6, line 42, leave out from '(b)' to 'imprisonment' in line 1, page 7.
      No. 16, in page 7, line 32, leave out 'in any case'.
      No. 17, in page 7, line 33, leave out from '(b)' to end of line 40 and insert:
      'imprisonment for a period—

      (i) where conviction is in the district court, not exceeding 60 days; or

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      (ii) where conviction is in the sheriff court, not exceeding 3 months.'.—[The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]

    Clause 8

      INTERIM LIBERATION BY OFFICER IN CHARGE OF POLICE STATION
      The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I beg to move amendment No. 19, in page 8, line 12, leave out 'If a person who' and insert 'Where a person'.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this we are to take Government amendment No. 20.
      The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I will be as brief as possible.
      I welcome the remarks and the compliments paid to me by the hon. Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing). I have always prided myself on my brevity in court. I have never addressed a jury for more than 55 minutes even in the more lengthy cases. I only wish that there were more English Members, or some English Members, in the Chamber who would understand that 55 minutes is probably as long as a jury can listen to a lawyer rather than three days, three weeks or three months, which appears to be the southern tradition.
      The amendment has the effect of making clauses 7 and 8 equivalent. There is a power under clause 7 for a policeman to liberate a person accused of an offence against a person under 17 on condition that he will come to court when cited to do so. In clause 8 hitherto, the power was only to liberate a person to appear at a specific court at a specific time. That meant that a person could not be released from custody until the date and time of the court appearance had been fixed. That might have meant that it was not possible to invoke the liberality of these provisions immediately. These provisions make clauses 7 and 8 identical and give the power to a police officer to liberate, even when the time and place of the hearing in court has yet to be fixed.
      Mr. Harry Ewing: We are grateful to the Solicitor-General for Scotland for the further consideration that has been given to this matter. Obviously, a great deal of thought has been given to the matter during the Summer Recess. I suspect also that some representations have been made

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      on these issues. These are obviously improvements in the Bill. We are grateful to the Solicitor-General for Scotland for the way he has propounded the amendments. For our part we accept them.
      The Solicitor-General for Scotland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. We are grateful for his co-operation.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendments made: No. 20, in page 8, line 13, leave out from 'summarily' to end of line 18 and insert:
      "the officer in charge of a police station may—

      (a) liberate him upon a written undertaking, signed by him and certified by the said officer, in terms of which that person undertakes to appear at a specified court at a specified time; or

      (b) liberate him without any such undertaking; or

      (c) refuse to liberate him, and such refusal and the detention of that person until his case is tried in the usual form shall not subject the officer to any claim whatsoever.'.

      No. 21, in page 8, line 23, leave out 'in any case'.
      No. 22, in page 8, line 24, leave out from '(b)' to end of line 31 and insert:
      'imprisonment for a period—

      (i) where conviction is in the district court, not exceeding 60 days; or

      (ii) where conviction is in the sheriff court, not exceeding 3 months.'.—[The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]

    Schedule 1

      CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS
      Amendment made: No. 24, in page 12, line 21, after 'accused', insert 'or an appellant'. [The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]
      5.38 p.m.
      Mr. Rifkind: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      I am sure that both sides of the House agree that this Bill, a short and for the most part uncontroversial measure, will improve the law of Scotland in a way that will be in the interests of the general public. One part of the Bill removes the compulsory requirements for Saturday morning sittings of the sheriff courts although it will still be possible for sheriff courts to sit on a Saturday morning if there are special circumstances justifying that requirement.
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      The more important part of the Bill is the general reform of the whole concept of bail, removing money bail almost completely and replacing it by a system of bail on conditions. The Government hope that one of the consequences of the reform will be that substantial numbers of people who are admitted to prison in Scotland because of inability or unwillingness to meet money bail requirements will in future not have to suffer that misfortune. Conditions imposed by the court will, by definition, be reasonable conditions. If they are not reasonable, they can be appealed against. There will, therefore, be no monetary reason why in the vast majority of cases the accused person or the appellant should not, if he wishes, meet the conditions imposed upon him. This will be a significant improvement. We are conscious of the great problems that have arisen in Scotland because of the necessity, through non-payment or non-provision of bail money, of admitting significant numbers of people to prisons in the course of any one year.
      The Bail Bill is an introductory phase of the Government's general intentions regarding criminal law reform. It is our intention during this Session to introduce a major Criminal Justice Bill. The reason for introducing this Bill so quickly was to deal with the specific and urgent problem of Saturday morning sittings of the sheriff court. It is on that basis that I commend the Bill to the House.
      5.41 p.m.
      Mr. Dewar: The Bill has been generally welcomed from these Benches. The fact that it was in Committee for only two sittings shows that our intention in that regard was honoured. There was no obstruction by the Opposition. However, it is somewhat cauld kale, because the main provisions were included in the Labour Government's Criminal Justice Bill.
      This is also a first instalment in the grand design for criminal justice on which the Solicitor-General for Scotland has been brooding these long years. We all wait with some fascination for the new restyled law of Scotland "à la Fordell" when it is officially unveiled.
      One thing that worries us a little is when the next part of the grand design will be unveiled. The Under-Secretary of State will be stuck on the Housing

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      Bill, which I suspect will be in Committee for a very long time. As presumably we cannot turn to criminal justice until he is relieved from that somewhat dishonourable occupation, it may be well into next year before we get the Criminal Justice Bill.
      I have continuing worries. I accept the spirit and intention of the Bill in the main. It is helpful that the prisons will not be cluttered up as they are now with a large number of people for short periods because bail has been set at a nominal amount but still cannot be found by those with big family commitments and comparatively modest weekly benefits. Once these people no longer end up in prison, the system will be welcomed by the prison service.
      I also hope that Ministers' intentions will be realised and that the police will be encouraged not to hold people overnight unless there is a good reason of public safety. At the moment, as anyone with any connection with the courts will testify, a large number of people are appearing bedraggled from the cells at 10 o'clock in the morning, having been held overnight for no good or apparent reason. I hope that the abolition of money bail—most of these people are released on payment of some comparatively nominal sum—will encourage the police to hold fewer people overnight.
      Having given that general welcome, I turn to my worries. The first is that we have a weaker measure than that which formed part of the last Government's Criminal Justice Bill. Money bail has been retained in tandem with the new system. Ministers went to great lengths to explain that it was not expected that money bail would be imposed on any broad spectrum of cases, that it was retained with an eye to the big company fraudster, the specialist criminal, of whom substantial sums could be demanded to ensure that he did not skip the country but whom it was not necessary to have "in jug".
      Those specialist cases are a small number, but the number of occasions on which money bail is imposed may be much larger. Without going over ground that was well ploughed in Committee, I would say that sheriffs are men of independent mind, who, to use an old Scottish phrase, are often gae thrawn and will gang
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      their own gait. On some occasions, some will say "Whatever the Solicitor-General's fine words in Committee and whatever the intention of Parliament, I have the power to impose money bail and I will do so".
      Those of us who are still in contact with the sheriff courts—in my case at one remove—will be watching with great interest to see whether money bail is really dead except in that small number of specialist cases, or whether, as I suspect, it will live on, perhaps intermittently but still to the disadvantage of the public because certain sheriffs do not take the message of Ministers.
      Clause 10 has not been debated today, although it was discussed in Committee, when we tried to convince Ministers that the Saturday courts should not be abolished. We have often been exposed to the oratory of the Solicitor-General to the effect that justice is very special and that the quality of justice cannot be weighed in terms of administrative convenience. Sometimes he rather overdoes that, but it is a fault on the right side. I am sorry that he has had to be connected with a Bill which somewhat damages the quality of justice purely for administrative convenience.
      The only argument for abolishing Saturday courts is that they cost money and are unpopular with staff. In the context of some things which the Solicitor-General said—I will not embarrass him with direct quotations—about the attitudes of court servants who put expediency, in his view, above the administration of justice at the time of their industrial action, it is rather sad that we are making a significant inroad into individual liberties by ensuring that some people arrested on Friday night will now be held until Monday without the normal right to appear the next day before a sheriff to get bail if that is possible. It is a shame that that has been introduced into the law of Scotland.
      I know that this provision was also in the Labour Government's Bill, so my strictures apply to my Front Bench as well, but I let them lie. I can do nothing but record my protest. However, we on the Back Benches will watch carefully to see whether Ministers' instructions to chief constables to ensure that fewer

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      people are held over the weekend are effective.
      I have already put down questions on this matter—for instance, one in July about the June figures—and I intend to keep putting down questions to discover the figures for the 10 sheriff courts. If there is not a significant diminution—I will not say that Ministers have promised this, because they cannot necessarily deliver—and if their influence is ineffectual and their hopes unjustified, we shall return to this matter in the months and perhaps the year or so that lies ahead.
      I hope that the influence of Ministers will be effective and that there will be a decrease in the number of those held in custody not just on Friday but throughout the weekend. If they wished to, the police could considerably reduce the number of people that it is necessary—I use that word in the fullest sense—to hold in these circumstances.
      In general, we welcome the Bill. We gave it a fair wind. However, it leaves residual worries and we shall monitor one or two points of real principle in the months ahead.
      5.49 p.m.
      Mr. Peter Fraser: I congratulate Ministers on this important addition to the criminal law of Scotland. However, the Bill, in its passage through the House, has not been greeted totally uncritically and on some points there were reservations on both sides of the House. Those points have now been largely met, particularly with the assurance that the Crown Office will remember that in introducing the Bill we are not slavishly following any English model. I hope that in considering how the Bill operates we shall not look simply at the English experience but will ensure that there is an independent and careful assessment of how this legislation works in Scotland.
      I hope that the Crown Office will pay regard to the conditions attached to bail now—in particular that condition relating to an offence being committed during the period of bail. I also draw attention to clause 3 relating to the circumstances in which the power of arrest may be operated.
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      The misgivings that were expressed earlier may be set aside for the moment, but I trust that in the years ahead those problems will be looked at carefully by the Crown Office. This may be the Solicitor-General's first movement of his magnum opus, but if the Bill is not working I hope he will be prepared to score out a note here and there.
      5.51 p.m.
      Mr. Harry Ewing: It is not the intention of the Opposition to divide the House on the Bill. I am anxious to see the Bill on its way to another place as soon as possible and to have it on the statute book. This Bill will become famous for a number of reasons. I have been following a story in the Sunday Mail recently and I understand that this is the first piece of legal work in which the Solicitor-General has been involved when he has not had to send for Beltrami. For that reason, the Bill will be a showpiece for several years.
      I also have reservations about the retention of money bail. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) has said, the Bill is a direct lift from the Labour Government's Criminal Justice Bill. In that Bill there was no intention to retain money bail. I suspect that sheriffs will not change quickly from money bail to a series of release conditions as people find it difficult to change their ways. Sheriffs are no exception to that rule, and are often very set in their ways. I shall be delighted if I am wrong. I hope that the Minister is right—that money bail is not used extensively and that the number of people finding themselves in prison because they cannot meet it will be reduced drastically.
      The prison service will be aided if the number of people in prison is reduced, as it is bogged down in the paperwork involved in receiving people in custody and releasing them again. There will be difficulty with money bail and we shall want to monitor it. I am sure that neither the Solicitor-General nor the Minister will object to that as it may prove helpful.
      The question of the sheriff courts not sitting on Saturdays was contained in the previous Labour Government's Criminal Justice Bill. I accept the reservations that have been voiced, although I am prepared to give the question of not sitting

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      on Saturday a fair trial. I do not, however, accept that a short period would provide a fair trail. An extended period is required before we would be able to assess whether it had had any ill or good effect. We must be fair, and wait for an extended period before considering the impact of that charge.
      We support the Bill. We are grateful to the Minister and to the Solicitor-General for the further thought they have given to it during the recess and for the amendments they have brought in on Report. It is seldom that a former Government Minister has an opportunity to pay tribute to a civil servant. I take that opportunity because the civil servant to whom I wish to pay tribute has now left the service. I refer to Mr. Norman Shanks, who worked on the Bill when I was a Minister and when the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) was a Minister. Mr. Shanks has now left the Scottish Office and is following a new career at the College of Divinity, with the intention of becoming a Minister in the Church of Scotland. I am sure the House joins me in wishing Mr. Norman Shanks well in his chosen career. I thank him and all those civil servants for the work they do in non-political matters—I am sure the Bill is better for that. With those words, I welcome the Bill.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  CYSTIC FIBROSIS (PRESCRIPTION CHARGES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Mather.]
  5.58 p.m.
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: I am grateful to the efficient managers of Government business for showing concern for the urgency of my subject and rushing it on four hours ahead of the scheduled time. I am fortunate in that it has nothing to do with paraffin. I am also grateful to Mr. Speaker—as I know thousands of people in Britain will be—for his kindness in personally selecting this subject for debate.
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  I ask the Government to say that the time has now come to add cystic fibrosis to the list of medical conditions in respect of which sufferers are exempt from paying prescription charges when they reach the age of 16, until they qualify for exemption at the age of 65. I declare an interest. I speak on behalf of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust, the organisation that represents sufferers from cystic fibrosis and their parents. It is a reputable body adorned with the patronage of Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Mrs. Angus Ogilvie. The charity is dedicated to raising money in order to fund medical and scientific research projects into cystic fibrosis, its causes and treatments, and hopefully one day, its cure. The charity has done wonderful work in the area of disablement without State aid.
  Through the efforts of that charity, comfort, education and morale-lifting support are given in an ever-increasing way to those whose suffering is often greater than that of the children, namely, their parents. Apart from the physical burden of caring for disabled children, parents have to live with the knowledge that cystic fibrosis being a genetic disease is passed to the children from the parents.
  I receive no payment from the trust, which is too well run a charity to pay anyone for something that it can get for nothing, I have an 11-year-old-daughter who suffers from cystic fibrosis and therefore I would be eligible for any financial relief the Government may give for as long after the age of 16 as my daughter depends upon me.
  If cystic fibrosis is not diagnosed and treated early it kills babies and children. Both parents are carriers of the recessive gene. It is thought that one in 20 of the population is a carrier, that there is a 1 in 625 chance of carriers marrying, and a 1 in 4 chance chance of any child they may produce suffering from the disease. The disease primarily affects two areas of the body. The pancreas does not function properly—or at all—and proteins and fats are not properly digested. The treatment for that malfunction is for the child to follow an expensive high protein diet and to swallow several capsules of powdered pig's pancreas with every snack or meal. That more or less does the work that the human pancreas should have done.

  683
  Secondly, the lungs are affected. The illness produces a thick mucus, which seals bacterial and viral infections into the bronchial tubes, causing progressive deterioration leading to lung failure. Treatment is in the form of physiotherapy for 20 minutes, twice a day, antibiotics, and occasionally the use of artificial aids such as decoagulating atomisers, and even mist tents. The burden of care and extra responsibility upon parents to keep their child alive and enjoying as near normal a life as possible is very great. If they could be relieved of the worry of ever-inflating regular prescription payments, that would be the wish of most hon. Members in this civilised House.
  I concede that the position has been much improved by the introduction of the prepayment certificate—the season ticket—which can be bought for £4.50 for six months and £8 for one year, and parents on very low incomes can be exempted altogether. Nevertheless, hardship is being caused and ought, if possible, to cease. Is it possible?
  The case that I am seeking to advance is strong, for two reasons. First, the cost would be small. I know authoritatively and confidently that that is so. My hon. Friend the Minister said as much in a written answer on Tuesday 23 October. The reason is that there are fewer than 1,000 sufferers from cystic fibrosis who have now reached the age of 16.
  Secondly, I am not asking the Government to change any rules in order to accommodate cystic fibrosis on the exemption list; I am merely asking them to apply the existing rules. I asked the Minister in a parliamentary question what were the criteria on which a decision may be taken to exempt the sufferers from certain illnesses who are over the age of 16 years from the liability to pay prescription charges. The list includes diabetes, Addison's disease, epilepsy and illnesses of the thyroid, pituitary and adrenalin glands. My hon. Friend replied that these
  "have always been that it should be a permanent and clearly identifiable condition requiring continuous medication".—[Official Report, 23 October 1979; Vol. 972, c. 152.]
  He added that the general medical services committee must be consulted and agree that a condition satisfies those criteria.
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  It cannot now be denied that cystic fibrosis is permanent, is a clearly identifiable condition, and requires continuous medication of the kind that I have described. One must then ask why it is not already on the exempted list.
  The answer is partly that it was difficult to diagnose the disease with certainty in the 1960s. Insufficient knowledge of the illness existed, but also quite simply, when the list of exemptions was drawn up in 1968, comparatively few sufferers were known to have survived past the age of 16. There was no demand for that measure.
  When my daughter was born in 1968, we were told that there was an 80 per cent. mortality rate. Few general practitioners who needed to diagnose the illness soon after birth in order to stop the immediate deterioration of the lungs had ever heard of it, let alone ever knowingly seen a case. Since that time, thanks largely to the work of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust and a few dedicated doctors and medical workers in the field, the disease has become more widely recognised, sufferers are mostly identified in time, effective treatments are given and there is every hope that most children born with cystic fibrosis will not only live past 16 but enjoy reasonably normal, full and long lives.
  I am not asking the Minister to look again at an old set facts oft considered and reconsidered. I am asking him to reconsider the matter in the light of a wholly changed situation.
  I make the plea not only on behalf of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust and the thousands of parents it represents, but with the support of such senior consultant paediatricians as Mr. R. D. G. Creery, of the Gloucestershire health authority and a large number of my parliamentary colleagues on both sides of the House.
  In particular, the following colleagues have taken the trouble to write personally and tell me of their support: my hon. Friends the Members for Belper (Mrs. Faith) and Stretford (Mr. Churchill), the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson), my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Colvin) and Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine), my

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  right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones), my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser), my hon. Friends the Members for Abingdon (Mr. Benyon), Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman), Kingswood (Mr. Aspinwall), Wells (Mr. Boscawen), Somerset, North (Mr. Dean), Bath (Mr. Patten), Westonsuper-Mare (Mr. Wiggin), Rugby (Mr. Pawsey), Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison), Winchester (Mr. Browne), Reigate (Mr. Gardiner), Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), Cheltenham (Mr. Irving), Cambridge (Mr. Rhodes James), Leeds, North-West (Sir D. Kaberry) and Birmingham, Edgbaston (Mrs. Knight), the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Lamond), my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Marland), the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher), my hon. Friends the Members for City of Chester (Mr. Morrison), Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) and Bristol, West (Mr. Waldegrave) and the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead). I am confident that there are a number of other letters held up in the post. Furthermore, I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock) is anxious to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  With such support and strength to my case, and in the cause of disablement, a subject that has always been of particular concern to the Minister, I am confident that my plea will fall on receptive ears and that the Government will continue to pursue their policy of taking speedy action when action is called for.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. Alex Pollock: I am grateful for an opportunity to address the House in this timely debate on a matter of considerable concern to all involved with this tragic illness.
  After the election I was approached by the Scottish council of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust with a view to speaking on its behalf. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) for putting so forcefully and cogently the case for exempting sufferers from prescription charges. I merely add that the Scottish council of the trust is also extremely active and deserves admiration
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  for the good work that it does in the North. Perhaps in his reply the Minister will bear in mind that this illness respects no frontiers and causes as much anxiety in Scotland as it does south of the border.
  6.6 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Sir George Young): I have responded to a number of Adjournment debates in my short career as a Minister, but none at five past six in the evening. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) on procuring a debate at this early hour. I also congratulate him on a fine and sensitive speech on behalf of sufferers from cystic fibrosis. He has made out a persuasive case for exempting these people from the need to pay prescription charges for the drugs that they require. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock) was a worthy seconder.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Burton read out an impressive list of support. I hope that he will not mind if I say that it sounded rather like a British Rail announcement.
  I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute to the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust for the work that it carries out on behalf of cystic fibrosis sufferers and for the active campaign that it has fought on the issue of exemption. I have read with interest some of the literature that it has distributed and have learnt most of what I know from it.
  Cystic fibrosis is a truly dreadful condition that must cause a great deal of heartbreak not only to those suffering from the condition but also to the relatives and friends who strive to help. The main feature of the condition, as I understand it, is that the mucus glands secrete abnormal types of mucus. Because of this the lungs can become damaged through the clogging of the bronchial tubes and the digestion system can be seriously impaired through the mucus preventing the flow of digestive enzymes. From that one can readily understand how a cystic fibrosis sufferer can fall prey to bronchitis, pneumonia and other lung and chest infections.
  Cystic fibrosis is a genetically determined condition and, though there is no known cure, work is going on to try to

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  pinpoint the exact deficiency or error with a view to finding effective methods of treatment. Again, as I understand it, there are particular problems not the least of which is the fact that because CF affects only humans the condition cannot be studied in animals. The patients themselves have to become the subjects for study.
  Cystic fibrosis affects thousands of infants, children and young adults in the United Kingdom. It is a sad fact that until fairly recently very few sufferers survived into adult life. The debate, however, is taking place because with the advances made in treating and caring for patients a greater number of them are surviving to adulthood. We believe that there could be up to 1,000 young adults of whom many, in spite of great difficulties, are employed and are trying to live a nearly normal life. I say "nearly normal life" deliberately as I have read some case histories sent to me and I marvel at the courage and determination shown by these young people. One patient I read about takes approximately 50 tablets and pills per day plus a special diet and physiotherapy twice a day. Another young lady spent most of her holidays in hospital getting fit to attend college during the term.
  In addition, there is the courage and patience shown by parents and relatives in caring for young people who do not always wish to adhere to the essential treatment requirements. There are also the people who assist with the daily physiotherapy, which is an essential part of the treatment.
  It is clear to me that in this area of treatment and caring the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust has played a very important part. This body, which was founded in 1964 to finance research to find a complete cure for cystic fibrosis, and meantime seeks to improve current methods of treatment, has a network of branches and groups throughout the country. Through this network it provides helpful advice to parents coping with a child or young adult suffering from cystic fibrosis. In addition, it is supporting research into the condition at many universities and hospitals in the United Kingdom. I am grateful that such an organisation exists, and I feel that great credit is due to it
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  for stimulating interest in the condition and organising help and advice for the patients and their relatives.
  The list of specified medical conditions, to which my hon. Friend referred, originated in 1968 when prescription charges were reintroduced. The list was drawn up as a means of exempting the chronic sick from prescription charges. Such a scheme could operate only with the full co-operation of the medical profession, and their representatives made it clear that they could agree to exemption only for readily identifiable medical conditions which called automatically for continuous lifelong medication, in most cases replacement therapy. This list of specified medical conditions which attract exemption has been reviewed by successive Governments, in consultation with the medical profession. The last discussion of the list with the general medical services committee of the BMA was in 1976 and cystic fibrosis was among the conditions mentioned on that occasion. However, it was not possible to reach agreement on any extension of the list. I can well understand the profession's insistence that only conditions about whose diagnosis, lifelong character and need for continuous medication there can be no doubt should be included. No doctor would wish to enter into an argument with a patient about whether his condition was severe or permanent enough to attract exemption, and yet such arguments would be inevitable if ill-defined or complex diseases were added to the list, or conditions so variable in their prognosis and treatment that exemption would not always be justified. The doctor would have to make, and defend, difficult judgments between two patients at different stages of the same disease, and this could put at risk his whole relationship with his patient.
  Speaking as a layman I have a great deal of sympathy with the call to add cystic fibrosis to the list, and I would hope that the medical profession, if it were asked, would agree that it seems to satisfy the normal criteria for inclusion.
  I am bound to say that it would not cost a great deal to grant exemption. What I have had to ponder over is whether I should ask the doctors to add cystic fibrosis to the list and I have seriously considered doing so, as I personally think that if as many CF patients

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  had survived to adulthood when the list was originally drawn up, that condition might well have been included. I think that there is little disagreement between myself and my hon. Friend on that point.
  However, I must take a broader view. When I look at the present list, though I can understand the reasons for limiting the types of conditions that are included, I find the present arrangements hard to defend from the point of view of the patient. My Department is constantly asked to explain why the list of exempt conditions discriminates against patients suffering from various other complaints and many examples are cited of how unfair the system appears to a particular patient.
  Let me give one such example. Patient A has his thyroid removed but requires the modest replacement treatment of a thyroid tablet twice a day for the rest of his life. If later he develops a heart condition, arthritis or any other illness he will receive all necessary medicines without paying prescription charges and is in effect exempt for life. By contrast, patient B may have a congenital heart disease from childhood and be kept alive by the drugs he is prescribed—yet once he is an adult he has to pay. I have to ask myself, if sufferers from cystic fibrosis are to be exempt why not those who have phenylketonuria, or coeliac disease? Why should patients suffering from a readily identifiable condition be exempt, but patients needing the same, or even greater, amount of drug therapy have to pay simply because their condition is less clearly defined—or merely more complex. I say "have to pay", but at this point I should remind hon. Members that a scheme already exists whereby patients can limit their outlay on medicines.
  I refer to the arrangements by which patients can purchase a pre-payment certificate. These certificates were introduced in 1968 because it was recognised that the list of specified medical conditions excludes many conditions which might require numerous prescriptions. The certificates are like season tickets. They currently cost £450 for six months, or £8 for 12 months. They entitle the holder to obtain as many items on prescription as he needs during those periods of six or 12 months without further charge. The
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  £8 annual certificate represents an outlay of just over 15p per week.
  By this means no cystic fibrosis sufferers, or for that matter anyone else, need pay more than the cost of 10 prescriptions in six months or approximately 17 prescriptions in a year. In addition, of course, there is exemption from prescription charges on low-income grounds for anyone, 16 years or over, whose income is not much above supplementary benefit level.
  Since some confusion exists about entitlement to low income exemption, I should like to stress that for young people of 16 years and over, whether or not they are working, it is their own income which is taken into account for the purposes of exemption, not that of their parents.
  I know that the Cystic Fibrosis Research Trust is aware of the pre-payment certificate arrangements, but I wish further to publicise their availability and that of low income exemption which might be of benefit to the young people we are discussing tonight.
  Mr. Lawrence: Before my hon. Friend moves on to another aspect of the problem, does he not consider it irrelevant to the question I am asking him to apply his mind to that there are other illnesses which might also be included on the exempt list? There is no reason to say "No" to cystic fibrosis merely because there are other illnesses which might also have a good claim to be on the list.
  If the Minister considers that cystic fibrosis should be on the list, and I think that that is what he is saying, is it not his duty to make sure that it goes on the list? Is he saying that the only thing standing in the way of that now is the general medical services committee of the BMA?
  Sir G. Young: I think that my hon. Friend will get a response to the last part of his question in a few minutes' time. Basically, wherever one draws the boundary people will be upset. If one advanced the boundary a little further to include cystic fibrosis, one would also in justice have to conduct a more general review of the whole scheme, and probably put in those who have phenylketonuria or coeliac disease. Therefore, one has to take a slightly broader view of the exemptions than my hon. Friend would like.

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  I have given this problem a great deal of sympathetic consideration. However, I find myself having to face the realities of the situation in human and financial terms. If I seek to add this condition to the list, can I really defend not going further? Should not I consider whether the list of exempt conditions is the best way of helping the chronic sick, and is it right to go on trying to improve the list as my hon. Friend would wish in a rather piecemeal way, instead of seeking an alternative, within the resource constraints imposed by our present financial circumstances, to help more of the chronic sick? Instead of exempting some and leaving others to pay might it not be better to make the pre-payment certificate available on more favourable terms because that would help everyone upon whom the need for frequent prescriptions imposes a heavy burden?
  I accept that this would mean that some of those who now pay nothing for the drugs they need would in future have to find the cost of a pre-payment certificate, and that is not an easy choice.
  I have exposed my thoughts on this matter in order that the House may understand why it is not a simple matter to take the course that sympathy demands and add cystic fibrosis to the list of exempt conditions. If I have decided to make no approach to the representatives of the medical profession at present it is because I feel that we must first see whether it is possible to work out some fairer way within our present financial constraints to help all the chronic sick with the costs of the drugs they need than this present method of listing specified medical conditions.
  If we conclude that there is no better way than the present, I will return again to the request of my hon. Friend that we should consider, with the representatives of the medical profession, whether the list is fully up to date and whether there is a case for adding cystic fibrosis to it and perhaps some other similar conditions. I hope that the House will understand why I have had to give a reply which is not as favourable as hon. Members might have expected. I hope that I have explained the reasons why I am unable to do this. Over the next few months my hon. Friends and I will bear in mind what has been said and
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  see how we can best meet the problems which my hon. Friend has described so graphically.
  Mr. Christopher Price: We are on the Adjournment, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and as I understand it, under our rules of order, it is permissible to raise any subject on the Adjournment. While the Minister is here I would like, before I start on the subject of the assisted places scheme in education, to put the point very fairly. I understand that it is in order—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Richard Crawshaw): Before the hon. Gentleman proceeds, may I say that he was good enough to indicate to me that he intended to follow this procedure. I remind him that Mr. Speaker has deprecated, in very strong terms, the raising of Adjournment debates without due notice. The hon. Gentleman has a right to do what he is doing, but rights also carry obligations. This Chamber cannot run unless people remind themselves of their obligations. May I, in supporting what Mr. Speaker has said in the past, ask the hon. Gentleman, though he is within his rights to do what he is doing, to consider whether he is being completely fair to ask a Minister to reply to something about which he has not been warned and could not have been aware. Perhaps I could ask him if he would consider leaving this until later to see whether the necessary arrangements can be made for him to raise his Adjournment debate when the necessary formalities have been proceeded with.
  Mr. Price: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Assuming we are on a point of order now, I think that the suggestion you have made might well be a sensible way to proceed, in the end. I understand that Mr. Speaker has deprecated the use of Adjournment time when the relevant Minister for that debate is not present. However, I and my hon. Friends have many times deprecated the way in which, increasingly, the Civil Service, the private office and Ministers treat this House. I gave the Department of Education and Science substantial notice that I intended to raise this subject. I also gave Mr. Speaker's Secretary notice that I would raise it.
  I think that a protest needs to be made that the tradition, which used to obtain,

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  under which there was always a Minister on duty in every Department who could come to the House at short notice and respond to the clear desire of Members to raise a point, when a rare and unusual event in this House took place, ought to be brought back. We should use opportunities of this kind to remind Ministers that their first duty is to this House, when an indication is given to them that Adjournment time which has arisen at short notice is desired to be used for discussion on the Floor of the House, and that that takes precedence over any other meeting outside this House that they have arranged.
  I see a Government Whip on the edge of his seat. If I could get some indication, Mr. Deputy Speaker, from the Government Benches where two Ministers of the Crown are sitting—indeed, the House is suddenly full of them—I should be prepared—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I made a suggestion to the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman can accept that suggestion and proceed later, but I do not intend him to proceed now and ask Ministers questions. He either accepts my suggestion or not.
  Mr. Price rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: If I may continue for one moment, the Adjournment debate began early tonight because it was obvious that busines was collapsing. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are not due to start private business until 7 o'clock. The Chair thought that it was for the convenience of the House that the Adjournment debate should start earlier. Because it was known who was to speak in the Adjournment debate and who was to reply, it was possible to arrange it at a few moments' notice. It was not until a few moments before, however, that it was possible to know that it would take place. Knowing the hon. Gentleman, I am sure that he would wish, having made his point, to leave the matter until later in the evening.
  Mr. George Foulkes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you know, I sat through proceedings on the Bail Etc. (Scotland) Bill and subsequently through the very interesting debate on cystic fibrosis, in the hope that there would be
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  some time before private business for other issues to be raised. It would seem appropriate that when we do have the time in the House we should take the opportunity of debating an issue which is of concern not just to my colleagues south of the border but also to us in Scotland. I would appreciate an indication either that an appropriate Minister can be brought to the House to answer the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price), myself and anyone else who wishes to participate in this debate, or else that we have a clear indication that at some time later tonight there will be a structured debate when we will get that opportunity.
  Mrs. Ann Taylor: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It seems to me that there is an easy way out of this dilemma. That would be for the Ministers who are present to indicate that the appropriate Minister will be in the House later this evening so that my hon. Friend can have the debate of which he has given notice. It would have been a different situation had my hon. Friend not been in contact with the Department of Education and Science earlier this evening and had he not given the Department an indication that he intended to raise this subject.
  If this is not done and no indication is given that a Minister will be present later, I think that my hon. Friend might well feel that the subject of the assisted places scheme and the money to be spent on it is a matter that is relevant to the DHSS because it means that its budget will be so much the less.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Concerning those last points of order, hon. Members have the right to raise those matters if they so wish. I want to make that point quite clear. What I wished to point out—indeed, I thought I had pointed it out—was that Mr. Speaker strongly deprecated the raising of Adjournment debates at very short notice when it was not possible to get Ministers to answer. It is not for me to answer for Ministers. I have made the point. Hon. Members have their rights and I will make sure that their rights are protected, but I, too, deprecate hon. Members raising Adjournment debates and expecting Ministers suddenly to appear in the House. It is not for me to answer for

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  them. I have made the point and I call the hon. Gentleman again.
  Mr. Christopher Price: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not wish to go against Mr. Speaker's deprecation by purporting at this time to be speaking on an Adjournment debate. I fully accept that your suggestion that these matters should be left now and pursued at 10 o'clock is the correct way to proceed. At this moment there are two Ministers of the Crown who, simply by getting up and indicating that Government Ministers do have respect for the House of Commons and are not just going to hide their heads and stay away because they are frightened to answer debates of this nature, could answer that question.
  The situation we find ourselves in, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the result of the absolute refusal of this new Government to accord with what have been traditional practices when business has collapsed in the past. Because of that, we are having to pursue the matter through points of order to try to obtain some indication from the Government Benches of how they wish to proceed at 10 o'clock when there will be half an hour left for an Adjournment debate. We might have such a debate earlier because the GLC Bill might collapse. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes) also has very crucial matters to discuss.
  It costs a lot of money to run this House and we want to give the public value for money. If every time business collapses we merely pack up and go home, leaving a great empty swathe of Benches, when there are hundreds of crucial issues still to be discussed, and if the public see that the House is so unaware of the thousands of problems in the country which need discussing, the standing of Parliament may fall even lower. It is up to Ministers to respond to this situation and indicate, rather than sitting there like stuffed dummies, how they intend to proceed at 10 o'clock.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Surely the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) is abusing the procedure of the point of order in a typical way. However, those who have heard him will hardly have been surprised.
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  Surely the point at issue is not whether he can raise a point of order so as to make a hysterical partisan harangue but whether the business of this House can be ordered in the best possible way. As far as his synthetic concern goes, I understand that he wants to talk about education, on which, no doubt, he will make a long and boring speech on the Second Reading of the Education (No. 2) Bill during the week after next. Of course, if he goes on now, he may not catch your eye on that occasion, and that would be a blessing to us all. But why does he not shut up on his bogus point of order now and let us get on with something else?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have listened to what the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) has said. In the past, Mr. Speaker has deprecated the raising of Adjournment topics at such short notice because he and others feel that it is unreasonable to expect a Minister to attend at a moment's notice. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to stand up and speak. It was my intention to suspend the sitting, and it would still be within my right to do so, until seven o'clock. But that would be depriving the hon. Gentleman of a right, and therefore I do not intend to do it if he still persists in wishing to speak. But Mr. Speaker has made it quite clear that hon. Members cannot necessarily expect a Minister to be here to answer at such short notice. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make his speech whether the Minister is here or not, that has nothing to do with the Chair. If he wishes to make his speech, I will call him.
  Mr. Foulkes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that, contrary to what you said earlier, advance notice was given to the appropriate Minister, and for some reason, about which we can only speculate, he has chosen not to be present. As my hon. Friend speculated, the Minister is not prepared to answer on this crucial issue—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to say that a Minister is not prepared to answer unless he has some justification for saying so. I do not know whether the Minister is prepared to answer or not. What I am saying is that the Chair deprecates attempts

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  to initiate Adjournment debates at short notice because it is unreasonable to expect a Minister suddenly to appear in the House.
  Mr. Foulkes: If I may continue, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It would be simple, as my hon. Friend has already indicated, if the Ministers now present were to indicate that it was within their responsibility to enable us to have a Minister of the appropriate Department here at a later stage to deal with this debate. That would solve our problem. You would be able to suspend the sitting and private business could start at seven o'clock. We would know that later in the day we would have a debate on this subject. Otherwise, I think that there is no alternative but for my hon. Friend to continue with the subject in the hope that some member of the Government will be able to answer the points raised.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have made the point. If the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) wishes to proceed, he may do so. I do not think that Ministers present are in a position to say whether colleagues or anyone else will be here. If the hon. Member for Lewisham, West accepts what I have suggested, I am sure that everyone will be satisfied. He will able able to make his speech and get a reply as well. I doubt whether he will get a reply if he proceeds now.
  Mr. Christopher Price: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I live in hope that those doors will open at any second and a Minister from the Department of Education and Science will issue forth. It has been stated a number of times that I did not give the Department notice. That is contrary to the truth. I gave the Department quite adequate
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  notice to get the Minister who is on duty to come to the House and answer this debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I gave quite adequate notice. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] At about 10 minutes to six.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not intend to listen to any further points of order on this matter. I am calling the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to address the House on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Price: I regret that I am not able to pursue the point of order on this matter because it is not a party matter. It is a matter very deep at the heart of our procedures and the answerability and accountability of Ministers to the House of Commons. I am sad that the Ministers present are not willing to give any indication. I have had an assurance from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I hope that I can accept that, as a result of your assurance from the Chair—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have given no assurance whatever. I said that the hon. Gentleman can raise the subject at 10 o'clock on the Adjournment if he so wishes. I cannot say whether a Minister will be here then. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not proceed on this matter. If he wishes to make a speech now on the Adjournment, will he please make it?
  Mr. Price: I withdraw the word "assurance", Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have had a suggestion from you. I do not consider the situation satisfactory, but, rather than proceed without a Minister in face of Mr. Speaker's deprecation, I hope to raise the matter at 10 o'clock, and I desist from speaking now.
  6.36 p.m.
  Sitting suspended.
  On resuming
  It being Seven o'clock, and there being private business set down by The CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS under Standing Order No. 7 (Time for taking private business), further proceeding stood postponed.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Before the House proceeds to debate the three Private Bills set down for consideration this evening, it might be helpful for me to remind hon. Members that the debate on the consideration stage of Private Bills is restricted to the matters contained in the Bill and may not extend to general policy questions or to particular matters not included in the Bill.

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL (By Order)
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered.
  Mr. John Hunt: I intend to be brief.
  This money Bill follows the familiar pattern to which we have become accustomed over the years and is broadly noncontroversial. I have no wish to restrict or inhibit debate upon it. I should like to impress upon the House the importance to the Greater London Council of the Bill's making progress tonight. A money Bill usually receives its Royal Assent prior to the Summer Recess but this year, because of the general election, the usual timetable was delayed. Therefore there is an urgent need for the various financial provisions in the Bill which are referred to in more detail in the schedules.
  Last year's money Act expired on 30 September this year. Any rejection or further delay of the Bill tonight would mean that the Greater London Council would have no power to meet expediture on capital account on any of the wide range of important services mentioned in the Bill or to lend money to the various persons and public bodies referred to in the schedule.
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  Rather than go into any great detail on the provisions of the Bill, the House might find it more convenient to dispose quickly of this money Bill and then move on to our main debate on the general powers Bill, which is to follow and about which some hon. Members wish to raise constituency points. If that is the wish of the House I shall resume my seat at this stage and allow the debate to proceed in that way.
  Mr. John Grant: I shall address my remarks primarily to the money Bill and try to relate them to the statement issued on 14 September by the Secretary of State for the Environment when he said that he wanted to see the inner cities once again full of hustle and bustle on a human scale.
  The trouble is that the Secretary of State and the Government on the one hand, and the Conservative-controlled Greater London Council on the other, do not come anywhere near to living up to the Secretary of State's own typically extravagant words. The various actions of the Government will ensure that the steady progress that we were making in inner London generally—I want to mention Islington in particular—will not merely be halted but wrecked.
  The Bill illustrates very well the approach of the Government's County Hall lap-dogs, lying at their feet, with scarcely a peep of protest as they see the wreckage beginning to pile up.
  The GLC's own memorandum to the Bill makes it clear that the council has tailored its capital estimates closely to the Government's apparent requirements. Its budget is broadly in line with housing investment, transport policies and locally-determined sector allocations. There is no attempt to fight the case for London and to argue for a better deal. We find that in real terms the total spending is £27 million less than in the 1978 money Act. I do not know—perhaps the Minister will be able to help—what rate of inflation is allowed for in the year which the Bill will cover. However, anything less than 20 per cent. will be totally unrealistic.
  The Bill deals with the provision of housing. I want to address most of my brief remarks to that point. This is an area of activity where the hypocrisy of the GLC at present reaches perhaps its giddiest heights. Its current approach

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  has very little to do with providing houses—but it has everything to do with how to get out of the task and how to rat on its housing responsibilities.
  I ask the House to look at the position in Islington, my own borough, where week after week families come to see me at my advice bureau and describe their wretched housing conditions. They must do so despite a massive effort by the Labour-controlled borough council between 1972 and 1978 in which 6,600 new homes and 3,500 rehabilitated homes were completed. That is a proud but costly record, but a very worthwhile one. I do not think anyone can say that that is not needed when there are 7,000 substandard homes in the borough, a desperate need to modernise old estates, a considerable shortage of homes, 10,000-plus on the waiting list, and new applications rolling in at the rate of about 100 a week. We may then see what the GLC's current contribution is, as represented not least in what it is prepared to spend on housing provision.
  Further, the GLC deliberately held property empty while planning to sell it off. I am not against the sale of council houses in areas of surplus, but this is an area of desperate housing need. I wonder what I should tell the families who come to me each week. I must say that if the Government and the GLC follow this policy, and if the borough council, as seems to be the case, is to be compelled to follow suit, the prospect of these families having a council home will have receded further into the distance. The pool of council homes will be steadily reduced in what will be nothing more or less than an unprincipled give-away of public assets.
  Then there is the question of the transfer of GLC estates to the borough. Only this week the Islington borough council rejected the GLC proposals—this is where we come right back to money—because the cost to Islington rent and rate payers, on the basis of the GLC proposals, would be about £600,000 in the first year, increasing in following years. There is the problem that GLC rents are far higher than those charged by the borough council. The borough rents must either be brought into line by being raised unacceptably or there must be a cutback in GLC rents, with a substantial loss to the borough.
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  The borough council has not taken a hard line against the transferring principle. I am glad about that, as I should prefer to see housing management brought nearer. The GLC housing management is in so many cases much too remote.
  On this issue County Hall is trying to take the borough for a ride. That is just not on. While the haggling over this goes on, the GLC's northern district housing office is allowed to run at an inadequate staff level and its service to tenants seems to be deteriorating considerably, especially in terms of repairs and maintenance.
  The sale of council houses and transfers to the boroughs will affect mobility and the position of people wanting to move from one borough to another. That will affect employment. The sales will inevitably cause a blockage. The transfer to the boroughs will also cause a blockage unless the arrangements prove effective. I want to see the arrangements monitored closely.
  I should like to touch briefly on certain issues, the first of which is the construction and improvement of metropolitan roads. If, as I suspect, that means that more money is to be earmarked to allow huge juggernauts to roll through the centre of my constituency, I warn the GLC and the Government that they are heading for major resistance. Indeed, it is about time that I had a reply from the Minister of Transport, with whom on 4 September I raised the matter of the Archway inquiry and the possible reopening of that inquiry. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will draw his right hon. Friend's attention to that matter.
  Public health is also mentioned in the schedule. Why, in view of its concern about this area of public health, has the Tory GLC not seen fit to issue any real protest about the crucial issue of the devastation of the National Health Service in inner London? Any protest that has been made has been decidedly muted. There is an appalling situation in Islington with the closure of the Royal Northern hospital's accident and emergency department. The effects of that closure could lead to the outright closure of this hospital, which is a valuable asset to the borough.
  Where does the GLC stand in relation to the report of the Royal Commission on the National Health Service, which showed that the service in inner London is under-financed, under-staffed and badly

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  organised? I understand that there is talk at County Hall of taking over as a regional health authority. That may affect some future money Bill. However, under the present management, I should have no confidence in that arrangement. We should be out of the frying pan and into the fire.
  I turn now to loans to help regenerate industry and employment. I am certainly not opposing that proposition, but it is rank hypocrisy, when the Islington borough council has tried to tread the same path of aid to employment, to find a rate support grant package recommended by the London Boroughs Association that would give Islington a relatively worse settlement than any other London borough on top of the radical overall cut in RSG that the central Government intend to impose with devastating effects in an area which is recognised as one of the most needy in the country. The partnership allocation for this year has already been hacked away. No one is fooled by the prospects for next year, which, in that respect, are grim.
  The Secretary of State, in his statement in September, talked about the main programmes providing major resources for the inner cities, but we all know that the Department of Industry is cutting help to industry generally. The Department of Employment has told the Manpower Services Commission that on top of this year's cut it must provide up to £150 million of cuts in its annual spending over the next three years. Therefore, it is clear that those in inner city areas will not escape from those consequences, including the disabled, who face a bleak employment prospect. Yet we have the GLC making its annual statutory whimper and at the same time talking about the need to aid inner city employment.
  The Labour Government, the previous Labour GLC and the Labour-controlled inner London boroughs, made some headway, albeit too slowly, in curing many of London's problems. Even so, the question for too many Londoners is not when did civilisation begin, but when will it begin? I do not think that people will need to put their clocks back this autumn. The Government are clearly doing it for them—perhaps their one act, of gleeful interventionism.
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  Far from the hustle and bustle mentioned by the Secretary of State, inner London is heading for unparalleled economic and social vandalism imposed by an uncaring and doctrinaire Government at Westminster, aided and abetted wherever possible by their poodles across the river at County Hall. This puny Bill serves only to underline that situation by its omissions and inadequacy.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. George Cunningham: First, I should like to echo and support all the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, Central (Mr. Grant). Our two constituencies share the same problems and often the same streets. We certainly suffer particularly from the threat of juggernauts passing through those streets. It is high time that the GLC, in its strategic London planning capacity, took more account of the needs of such areas.
  I have risen to speak in this debate to dwell particularly on the subject of housing, but only briefly, and housing management.
  I recollect three or four years ago speaking from the other side of the House and treating it to an account of the sufferings that many of my constituents who are tenants of the GLC underwent as a result of what could only be described as absolutely incompetent housing management by the GLC. One of the incidents that I used to illustrate this contention related to a block in my constituency called Stranraer Way. I described how the sewage came bubbling up through the kitchen sinks months and indeed years after the fault had been noticed and reported to the GLC. It is no surprise to me—and it should not be any surprise to anyone who is familiar with the GLC—to know that in some of those maisonettes the sewage is still bubbling up through the sinks three years after it was first revealed in this House. It must now be two to three months since I last wrote to the GLC housing department on that matter. I can say that for a long period of time there was no response to the subject, and certainly the matter has still not been put right.
  That is just one example of the kind of thing which any Member of Parliament and any GLC councillor trying to look after the interests of his constituents has to put up with if he has a large

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  amount of GLC accommodation in his area. I could go on till 9 o'clock with incidents of that kind.
  It so happens that even the GLC finally decided that the incompetence of its northern district office was so bad that it should investigate it. Those of us involved have recently had a copy of the report of that investigation—and an appalling story it tells of what can only be called simple administrative incompetence. They are things which anybody who knows how to run an office ought to be able to get right: letters not answered; repairs notified but not seen to; repairs done but botched with the result that they have to be done again, the cost of them being badly done and done again and so on being pushed on to the tenants on each occasion. I imagine that report came as some surprise to many members of the GLC in the depth of administrative incompetence which it revealed, but it did not come as any surprise to me.
  There is in my constituency a block called Grimthorpe House—and it is well called that. Probably half the tenants in Grimthorpe House have been to me on one occasion or another complaining of the condition in which the place is kept.
  In April I asked that the GLC should go from one end of it to the other working out what needed to be done and seeing if it could be put right. It took many months for me even to get a reply to the letter. That was no surprise at all, because that is standard practice for the GLC housing department. The job of going through from one end to the other has not happened. I should not have expected that in six months. Indeed, I should not really expect it to happen in the coming year. But, since it does not happen, I insist on stating the fact on the Floor of the House of Commons when the GLC is asking us to approve many millions of pounds for its support.
  Recently the borough of Islington environmental health department has had to use its legal powers against the GLC to do work which the GLC failed to carry out and to send the bill to the GLC as statute permits it to do. We have had the Islington health department serving legal orders on the GLC, telling it to do things.
  There was a sewage overflow—I have great trouble with the GLC over sewage in Islington—outside a block of flats in
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  Copenhagen Street. It was put right, but it was not all cleaned up. It was reported, but nothing happened. It was reported again and nothing happened. It was further reported several times and nothing happened. Ultimately I had to get on to the borough authority, which has the right to order the GLC to do it, or to do the work in default, and the authority did the job in default.
  The GLC welcomes people to County Hall. It asks them to come and see the largest and best local authority in the world. It is shameful that the GLC cannot even clear up the sewage before it is instructed to do so on legal orders from a borough authority in London.
  I could cite other similar cases of garbage piled up on the stairs and in the drying rooms of Newland Court. It went on for weeks and weeks, and again the borough authority had to use its legal powers either to do it in default or to instruct the GLC to do it. I could go on until 9 o'clock with similar examples.
  I could mention cases of faults in standard household equipment, such as the lavatory cistern of Mr. Wicks in Campion House. It was reported as being faulty. The GLC did nothing. Ultimately someone was sent to put it right. He did not; he broke the lavatory cistern. Previously it was working badly; now it was not working at all. That did not surprise me. The family had to wait for three months for something to be done. During that time, including Christmas of last year, they had to flush the lavatory with a bucket. It happened within five miles of this majestic House of Commons, in the area of the greatest and certainly the largest local authority in the world.
  Eventually the GLC mended the cistern. Anyone acquainted with plumbing matters will know that there is not much that can be done wrongly in putting in a new cistern, but the GLC, with its ingenuity, discovered something. It is possible to leave a hole in the cistern. It is supposed to be plugged with a little plastic thing which can be bought for 5p in any plumber's shop. The GLC, having found the hole, left it open. When the cistern overflows, as it does frequently in that block, the water not only goes out of the overflow pipe and down the wall outside, making things damp and unsightly; it also goes on to the lavatory floor.

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  I shall stop there with my examples of these atrocities arising from administrative incompetence, but that sort of experience is regular, week in and week out. It is the experience of myself and of GLC councillors. I am sure that it is the experience of every MP and of every GLC councillor in London with a lot of GLC accommodation in his area.
  Some people say that the GLC cannot be efficient at housing management because it is too big. I do not agree. The GLC is not inefficient because it is big. It is inefficient because it is inefficient. One person does not supervise his immediate subordinate, that person does not supervise his subordinate, and so it goes on. Everyone is permitted to get away with making a botch of things, without any proper hierarchical control. Consequently, when recently I had an on-site meeting with the district officer in my area to look into a certain matter, it was no surprise to me that he turned up 35 minutes late for a meeting with the Member of Parliament. How late he turns up when he has meetings with tenants' associations, God alone knows. I despair. I do not know what can be the solution to this kind of thing.
  I should like to see one of the London evening papers, the Evening Standard or the Evening News, offering an award, with perhaps a modest prize of about £20, to the GLC tenant bringing forward the worst horror story of administrative incompetence in the previous three months. Only constant public exposure of these inefficiencies is likely to have any effect on the GLC. I hereby invite the London evening newspapers to consider that proposal and to join in the almost hopeless task of trying to make GLC housing management a little better than it is now.
  Mr. John Hunt: With the leave of the House, may I reply briefly to the two speeches that have been made in the debate?
  I say to the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) that those of us who have attended these GLC debates over the years are very familiar with the saga of sewage and garbage with which he has regaled us tonight. I am sure that he will be the first to concede that his speech has been
  708
  made by him with equal vehemence against the Labour predecessors at the GLC.
  Mr. George Cunningham: Of course.
  Mr. Hunt: There is nothing new, therefore, in what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I am sure that many of us are disturbed to hear that things are just as bad today in Islington as they were when he first raised these kinds of issue on the Floor of the House. His remarks will be noted by the GLC and I am sure that it will follow them up. Indeed, I am sure that he will take steps to ensure that that is done. At least his views are on the record, and they will serve a useful purpose in that respect.
  I should like also to reply briefy to the speech of the hon. Member for Islington, Central (Mr. Grant). I have heard Sir Horace Cutler called many things over the years but I have never heard him described as anyone's poodle. Those who know him would regard it as a very unfair and inaccurate description of the leader of the Greater London Council.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the provision for housing in the money Bill. Admittedly, it shows a decrease of about £9 million as compared with the previous Act, but, as the schedule shows, the GLC is still spending £133,800,000 on the acquisition of property, the erection of dwellings and other purposes. That is a substantial sum by any standard. The reduction to which I have referred relates specifically to the decision taken by the GLC to concentrate its housing resources on areas such as inner London and Thamesmead. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would not necessarily quarrel with that, in the sense that it should be of some assistance to his area. Admittedly, it implies that the GLC is not now pursuing the development policy of its predecessors in the outer London boroughs. There are undoubtedly varying views in the House on that matter.
  I have always taken the view that it makes much greater sense to revive and regenerate the inner parts of our city before looking, as the previous GLC did with such greedy eyes, on the outer London areas, where development of the kind that was envisaged, and to some extent carried out, by the previous administration has eaten up some areas of the green belt and has been undesirable in many

  709
  ways. It is much more preferable for the housing development to be concentrated in inner London. The present GLC administration is doing that.
  The planned expenditure of £57 million in the money Bill on roads and public transport represents an increase of about £10 million over the 1978 measure. That represents an increase of about £6 million in real terms. Against the background of the present financial difficulties of the country, I should have thought that that was a significant increase for the GLC to make.
  The money is being spent primarily—as the hon. Member for Islington, Central said—on road construction and the provision of new rolling stock for the London Transport Underground service. Anyone who uses that service will know that at the moment there is great variation between the new lines, with their modern rolling stock and equipment, and some of the older, more neglected lines. It must be a welcome development that those older, neglected lines will be brought up to a higher standard.
  7.30 p.m.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the problem of juggernauts, with which we are all familiar. Every constituency in Greater London is plagued by these monsters, but I do not think that the corollary of that is to argue against new road development. The problem of juggernauts can be dealt with in various ways, such as imposing width and other restrictions that have been contemplated from time to time. Most residents in London who see our traffic grinding to a halt on so many occasions will welcome the fact that the GLC is grappling with the problem and proposing to spend this additional money.
  Mr. John Grant: The hon. Gentleman knows that I have the good fortune to live in his constituency. He says that all London Members know about the problem, but in his constituency they do not have a clue about the problem in my constituency of Islington, Central, which must be one of the worst affected—if not the worst affected—in London by this particular problem.
  Mr. Hunt: I would not quarrel with the hon. Gentleman to the extent that I am sure that Islington has a greater
  710
  problem in this respect than Bromley has. However, there are parts of my constituency where juggernauts are a great problem, though perhaps not in the road in which the hon. Member for Islington, Central lives. I know that that is a very quiet and unspoilt area. There are other parts of the borough where juggernauts present a problem. The hon. Member can look at my mailbag as proof of that.
  I was about to say that for the GLC simply to hold up its hands in despair and say that because of juggernauts it can and will do nothing about the problem would be a total abdication of its responsibilities. Therefore, I believe that most reasonable people will welcome the fact that this adidtional money is to be spent. I do not think that the question of juggernauts really relates to this money Bill. On that note, I hope that the House will allow the Bill to proceed and allow the GLC to have its money.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended, considered accordingly; to be read the Third time.

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered.
  7.33 p.m.
  Mr. William Shelton: It is with great pleasure that I present for consideration of the House the Greater London Council (General Powers) Bill.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Ravensbourne (Mr. Hunt), I do not propose to speak for a long time, for various reasons, the first of which is that we had the Second Reading of this Bill on 12 June. I counted the columns in Hansard. which I have with me, and I am glad to say that hon. Gentlemen and my hon. Friends, the London Members of Parliament, and I managed to fill about 56 columns during that Second Reading debate. Indeed, I contributed about 30 minutes to that debate and covered many aspects of the Bill. The second reason

  711
  is that one has a slight feeling of déja vu because last Tuesday we had a debate on London. I see the faces of some here again this evening of those who contributed to that debate. It is a pleasure to have already heard a reference to Sir Horace Cutler. I was pleased and impressed by the obsession that Opposition Members appear to have with Sir Horace. That helps to raise him in my esteem, as I said last Tuesday.
  We had an unopposed Second Reading of the Bill in June and various hon. Members, for their own reasons, have put a stop on the Bill, which is why we are debating it tonight. I confess that on various occasions in the past, when in opposition, I and my colleagues acted similarly. It always seemed to us to be one of the few ways that we could achieve a debate on London.
  As the House knows, there will probably be an opportunity to discuss London affairs next Friday. I am sure that we all welcome that and congratulate the Government on their perspicacity.
  I propose to explain briefly the present status of the Bill after its Committee stage. Clause 3, which is the first clause of substance, is unchanged. It is the same clause as that which we debated on Second Reading and it deals with the licensing of public entertainment in London. Hon. Members will remember that this clause creates separate offences and separate fines for each breach of the licensing provisions.
  At present, any number of provisions can be breached and only one fine can be levied. That has meant that in certain cases, such as pop festivals, it has perhaps been beneficial for the organiser to breach all the provisions and pay one fine. He will now have to pay a multiplicity of fines, one for each breach, and the fine has been increased from £200 to a maximum of £500.
  Clause 4 is again unchanged. The House will remember that this clause permits the council to pay the chairman of the London Transport Passengers' Committee an annual stipend instead of attendance and financial cost allowances.
  There is no change to clause 5. This clause authorises councils to erect advertisements in the streets—for instance,
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  those rather attractive maps and advertising drums in Oxford Street, with the names of companies, or whatever it is, around the border.
  Hon. Members may say that these advertisements have already been erected, but perhaps it is not quite certain whether they have been erected with statutory authority. Clause 5 will give councils the authority they need.
  Clause 6 is merely a tidying-up clause and is unchanged.
  As regards clause 7, the situation has changed. Hon. Members will find clause 7 in the amended Bill—which no doubt they have with them—to be exactly as it was in the previous Bill. It will be seen that this clause purports to withdraw the powers of boroughs to regulate parking on grass verges, footpaths, pavements, and so on.
  The reason for this clause is that it was the intention of the Government to implement similar powers nationally under the power they have in the Road Traffic Act 1974. It was felt, quite properly, that it could lead to confusion if boroughs had a set of powers similar in almost every respect to those for which the Government were to legislate nationally. Therefore, clause 7 was introduced to withdraw the powers from boroughs so that there would not be, at any time, the danger of a conflict of powers.
  The Government have announced their intention not to proceed to implement the powers under the Road Traffic Act 1974 on a national basis. I understand that the reason is the cost that would be involved. I am aware that a good many representations were made to the Government after our Second Reading debate in June, to the effect that implementation of these powers would impose considerable additional burdens on police and traffic wardens, with considerable additional costs.
  Therefore, the Government have said that they will not implement this power. Quite understandably, the boroughs have now asked "Please, can we keep the power that we have at present?" Therefore, although clause 7 remains in the Bill, should the measure get a fair wind tonight the intention is that there will be a request, perhaps in another place, for the clause to be removed so that the powers can remain with the boroughs to

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  be used as they see fit and, indeed, to be used as they are used at the moment.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for informing the House about that. However, does that mean that the 1980 date about which we talked on Second Reading will be met by the boroughs themselves? When we discussed this we were told that it was not certain that the 1980 date would be met. Can we now take it that 1980 will be the operative date?
  Mr. Shelton: I think the answer must be that this will lie with the individual boroughs. That is my understanding of the intention. But it is not for this House to say how the boroughs will use that power. At present, the power rests with the boroughs. The clause would have replaced that power by national powers, but now the national powers will not be granted, so the boroughs will retain that power. It is really up to the boroughs to decide how and when that should be implemented.
  There is no change in clause 8. This is the clause which creates a staff commission to ease the transfer of staff consequent upon the transfer of certain GLC estates to the boroughs. I know that this is a controversial matter, but I trust that the clause will not be controversial. If the transfer is to take place, and if the power is to rest with the GLC and the boroughs, there must be a staff commission. I understand that the trade unions have been consulted and do not oppose the creation of this commission. It is generally understood that it will be essential to deal with matters such as appeals procedures, reorganisation of posts, recruitment and so on. Perhaps the House already knows that the intention was for the transfer to take place on 1 January 1980. I am now authorised to say that it will take place on 1 April 1980.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: That is a very appropriate date.
  Mr. Shelton: Perhaps it will take place after 12 noon. I am told that this will now take place on 1 April to fit in better with the financial year.
  7.45 p.m.
  Mr. Ron Leighton: Can the hon. Gentleman explain
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  the reference to the independent staff commission which will be required to safeguard staff interests? If clause 8 is passed, will the London advisory committee become the staff commission? Can we have an assurance that those transferred will have equal wages and conditions, including London weighting?
  Mr. Shelton: The London housing staff advisory committee was set up on 22 August as a forerunner to the staff commission which will be authorised by clause 8. Indeed, at the present time the committee is dealing with interim recruitment. I understand that it is merely a forerunner of the staff commission. When the staff commission, which is the statutory body, comes into being, the staff advisory committee will cease to exist. Its role will be superseded by the staff commission.
  As to an assurance about the parity of London weighting and salaries, I can only suppose that this will be so, but I cannot give any assurance on behalf of the staff commission, which will operate within its own terms of conduct. However, I should be very surprised if what I have said is not so. I do not think that it is realistic for this House to ask for that assurance because we are setting up a statutory body to which powers will be given to negotiate with the unions and staff.
  Mr. Leighton: But clause 8 would transform the forerunner into the independent staff commission as a statutory body. Would that be the effect?
  Mr. Shelton: That is not the effect of clause 8. Its effect is to establish a staff commission. Whether it merely transforms the staff advisory committee into the staff commission must be a matter for decision by those who set up the staff commission. That may well be the case, but as I understand it that is not the statutory effect of clause 8. The staff advisory committee is not a statutory body, and it may or may not become the staff commission, but that is not within the definition of this legislation.
  Mr. Leighton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is a rather vague situation which is not entirely satisfactory?
  Mr. Shelton: I think that the hon. Gentleman is being a little unreasonable. The intention is for the staff commission to be set up. How it is formed is laid down in some outline, and I see no compulsion at all upon anyone that the present advisory body should be transferred en bloc into the new staff commission. I understand that that is not the nature of this specific legislation. My guess is that it probably will be, but I do not think that it is for us to say that it must be. I am sure that the staff commission will do a satisfactory job and will be in existence for a considerable time.
  The clause 9 which existed in the Bill that we debated in June no longer exists. In fact, it was struck out in Committee. That was the clause which enabled councils to guarantee loans made by banks or finance houses for the construction, extension or improvement of industrial or commercial buildings. Hon. Members may recall that on Second Reading it was pointed out that councils had the power to make loans but did not have the power to guarantee loans. It was felt, rightly or wrongly, that this could well be a cheaper way—guranteeing a loan rather than making the loan itself.
  However, in its wisdom the Committee decided to strike out this clause. The reason, which one must acknowledge and accept, is that the Government are at present reviewing their own levels of assistance to industry. It was therefore felt on reflection that it was difficult for local authorities to take new powers in this same area. In addition, there is the old difficulty that this could well distort regional priorities. As a result, hon. Members will find a clause 9 in the present Bill, but it is not the clause 9 that we debated on Second Reading.
  In the same way, clauses 10 to 21 of the old Bill are not included in the new Bill. They were withdrawn in Committee, and hon. Members who remember the Second Reading debate may recall that I said at the time that they would be withdrawn. They dealt with the powers of local authorities to license and regulate hostels because, as I explained then, there has been a certain amount of abuse connected with hostels in London, especially in summer. Some operators will rent a hostel for a month or two for a lump sum and then fill it, quite indefensibly,
  716
  with a vast number of unfortunate students or tourists. They take a levy from each one and make a great deal of money, to the detriment of the hostel and the area.
  It was felt by the Department of the Environment that, although this problem was well recognised, a revised drafting probably would better fit the overcrowding provisions of the Housing Act. This new drafting will be in the next Greater London Council (General Powers) Bill, which—I was slightly taken aback to hear this—will be presented next month.
  As a result, the present Bill is very much shorter than the one we debated in June because we have lost clause 9 and clauses 10 to 21 as well.
  The new clause 9 is our old friend and it remains unchanged. It deals with the brown-tail moth. Its Latin name is Euproctis Chrysorrhoea. This brown-tail moth is spreading westward from Canvey Island, which seems to have been the point of infection. It has advanced as far as Tower Hamlets and is now infecting one-third of London local authorities. It kills trees and shrubs by stripping their leaves and roots. It has a second effect which perhaps I can best explain to the House by reading from the brief—
  "Contact with undergarments which have previously been exposed to the windblown hairs of the caterpillar can cause skin irritation and a subsequent rash."
  I am sure that we wish to spare our constituents any subsequent rashes. This clause will permit the borough to serve a notice on those in whose garden this beast is lurking, calling on them to destroy it. Should they not destroy it, the council is empowered to do so, and no doubt charge the person concerned.
  Finally, clause 10, which was clause 23, is unchanged. This is not a matter of great importance, but it permits boroughs to authorise tables and chairs on footpaths. If I may quote once again from the brief, one object is—
  "to make attractive and lively improvements to the street scene."
  I am sure that none of us would argue with that.
  This is a slimmer measure and, I hope, a non-controversial one. The hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) raised a point on clause 8 and

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  I will consult on this matter. If it is appropriate and if it is the wish of the House I shall come back later this evening and say a few words about it, should I have been mistaken in my interpretation. I ask the House to give a fair wind to the Bill this evening.
  Mr. Reg Race: The points that I want to raise on this Bill are very closely related to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton) about clause 8 and its relation to the establishment of a staff commission to deal with those members of Greater London Council staff who will be transferred, along with the housing powers of the GLC and its housing staff, to the London boroughs.
  I have a non-financial interest in this matter as a member of the National Union of Public Employees. I am sponsored by that union. Many of its members are involved in this area of GLC activities, as both manual and non-manual workers. The real reason why the staff commission has been proposed at all is that the Tories at the GLC want to dismantle the strategic housing role of the council. It would be quite remiss of Members on the Opposition Benches if we were not to criticise the GLC for that policy. The reality behind that policy is an attempt to cut the number of houses under construction by the GLC, in the GLC area, from 6,000 a year—which was the case in the last year of the Labour administration at County Hall—to nothing. Next year we shall see a significant rundown of GLC house-building activities. About 90 per cent. of the GLC's total housing construction and activities next year will be concentrated on Thamesmead, with the rest of London getting virtually nothing.
  When we discuss clause 8 of this Bill we are discussing the effective dismantling of the powers of the GLC to build houses in the capital. We are also talking about the transfer of the existing stock to the boroughs, many of which will have housing indigestion if they actually take on board all the GLC stock in their areas.
  My argument about clause 8 is straightforward. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) will know that discussions have been taking place between the GLC and the relevant trade unions
  718
  for some time concerning the impact on trade union members of the proposed transfer of housing stock to the boroughs. Although agreement has been reached in part on transfer arrangements, no final agreement has been reached on the precise terms and conditions under which the transfer will take place. I address myself particularly to that problem in relation to clause 8(3)(b), which refers to the Secretary of State's power to refer to that staff commission particular items of relevance and importance which confront people who are transferred from the London boroughs.
  The role of the staff commission will be absolutely undermined if the Secretary of State does not refer to the commission the whole question of absolute protection of wages and salaries and of conditions of service, as well as items such as conditioned overtime for manual workers currently employed by the GLC in jobs such as housing caretakers and other housing-related functions. Such overtime is a very important part of overall average earnings in that industry. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that in the discussions that have taken place so far the GLC has accepted, as have the London boroughs, that a new contract of employment for the people who are transferred from the London boroughs will be given three months after the operative date of transfer.
  That is all very well. It may be that the legal requirements for the new contract of employment should be entered into at that early stage, but in practice it will mean that the GLC rates of pay and conditions of service will apply to those who are transferred for only a maximum period of three months unless specific provisions are incorporated in the agreement between the trade unions, the GLC and the London boroughs to extend such protection beyond the date on which the new contracts of employment come into operation.
  8 p.m.
  The principal problem is not likely to be caused by the GLC manual workers. It will lie with the white collar workers, because they enjoy substantially better pay and conditions than do those working for London boroughs. The GLC white collar workers have two negotiating bodies. A GLC negotiating body deals

  719
  with the terms and conditions of employment of staff employed by the GLC and negotiates their rates of pay, London weighting and number of hours worked. Those conditions and wages are substantially in advance of what is enjoyed by those working for London boroughs, whose wages and conditions are determined by the national joint council for local authority administrative, professional, technical and clerical staff who have a national agreement. It is important that the terms and conditions of employment of existing GLC staff are preserved and perpetuated beyond the time when the contract of employment is introduced by the London borough that takes responsibility for employing a present member of the GLC staff.
  I should like an assurance from the hon. Member for Streatham that the Secretary of State will refer that matter to the staff commission. If he does not do so, the trade unions the GLC and the London boroughs will find it difficult to reconcile their differences.
  It is clear that transferring 4,000 or 5,000 workers to the London boroughs will gravely affect the promotion prospects of those who continue to be employed by the GLC. If they lose promotion prospects that they might have enjoyed under the existing GLC network, with, for example, the possibility of promotion to the GLC's northern district office, that will have a serious effect. I hope that the question of promotions to the London boroughs and within the GLC will also be referred to the staff commission. Only then can proper arrangements be made for transferability of jobs between the London boroughs and the GLC.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: Another distressing aspect is the GLC's decision to break up the direct labour organisation. We shall lose skilled workers who are needed, because all over London there are housing estates where private contractors have gone broke and houses are waiting to be built. There will be no direct labour organisation to pick up that work.
  Mr. Race: My hon. Friend is right. The destruction of the direct labour organisations in London will mean that
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  skilled operatives will be lost permanently to the industry. Many will either never work again or work only intermittently. The production of houses in London, where we still have a major housing shortage, will be gravely affected. In my own London borough of Haringey the numbers on the housing waiting list have shot up dramatically to more than 10,000 in the past few months.
  The dismantling of the GLC's strategic housing role and the Government's deliberate policy, announced in the Budget, to cut housing spending by £300 million will have a direct effect on Londoners. The innocuous looking clause 8 is a direct product of the lunacy of the Government in dealing with the housing problems of inner London and of the outer London boroughs that have similar problems.
  Mr. John Hunt: Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that many GLC tenants, including, I am sure, many in his constituency, will welcome the fact that, having been transferred to the boroughs, they will have a housing department that is local and much more accessible?
  Mr. Race: That remains to be seen. Whether tenants will welcome being transferred from the GLC to a London borough depends on a number of factors, including the amount of money that the borough has available to carry out necessary repairs. The GLC is deliberately keeping empty scores of houses on the White Hart Lane estate, in my constituency, because the council wants to sell, homestead or let those houses. That is disgraceful, especially since at my Friday surgeries I have scores of people wanting new accommodation. Clause 8 is the direct outcome of the GLC's wish to divest itself of important strategic powers and to place all the responsibility for dealing with the problems on the boroughs that are least capable of solving them.
  The difficulty facing boroughs such as Haringey, Islington, Newham and Tower Hamlets is that they do not have the financial, manpower or administrative resources to deal with problems of the size of those with which they will be confronted.
  The old London County Council and the present GLC were given a strategic

  721
  role because it was accepted by everyone in politics that the only way to solve housing problems was to have an authority with global responsibility rather than to leave the boroughs to look after themselves.
  Clause 8 is the outcome of policy decisions taken without the approval of Londoners and directly against the interests of Londoners who are looking for housing and of GLC tenants. It is clear that if a London borough accepts a large number of GLC houses it will have housing indigestion. The council will try to deal with repairs and other problems, but it is unlikely to be able to do so. That is why many local authorities in London have refused to accept the transfer of GLC houses and flats in their areas.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: My hon. Friend mentioned Newham. It has been said of a property on Pier Estate, in North Woolwich in my constituency, that if it were offered free to the borough, the borough would hesitate to take it because of its architectural condition. Is not the selling-off of council homes, say, in Dagenham, to private owners, by the will of County Hall and Conservative Members in this House, depriving tower block families throughout London, particularly mothers with young children, of a reasonable home and driving them to drugs and possibly worse?
  Mr. Race: I accept that much of what my hon. Friend says is correct. Many GLC estates are in a deplorable condition. They have been allowed to run down in a deplorable fashion. I can give a precise example of the way in which the GLC homesteading scheme has undermined the prospects of council tenants getting a house. I was approached by two constituents, Mr. and Mrs. Butt, who formerly lived in Cranbrook Park, Wood Green N.22, who told me that they had been offered a house on the GLC estate at White Hart Lane in my constituency and had accepted. They were later told by the GLC that they could not have the house because it had already been sold to homesteaders. That is a precise example of the way in which a house was taken from council tenants and given to homesteaders over the heads of the prospective council tenants. That is what happens under a policy for selling off council homes so preventing people moving
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  out of less desirable tower blocks or older estates into newer and better accommodation.
  This Bill tries to give effect to the GLC's desire to get rid of its strategic housing role. I hope that the House will be aware of that fact when it discusses the question later tonight. I hope that we can have from the hon. Member for Streatham the assurances for which I asked about wages, conditions and promotion.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a rumour that the proposed staff commission has been working and that money has been spent and incurred. Would my hon. Friend like to comment on the fact that, if true, it will be ultra vires payment? This Bill and the money Bill are the two authorities for the establishment of the commission. If the commission has been sitting and operating in past months, it is time that action was taken by the auditor to inform GLC members that they should be surcharged.
  Mr. Race: My hon. Friend has raised the interesting question of surcharging Sir Horace Cutler. That might be welcomed by some hon. Members on the Labour Benches if what my hon. Friend says is correct. I hope that we will hear assurances on the question of staff transfer. It is a serious matter for the 4,000 to 5,000 employees of the GLC who will be transferred to the London boroughs.
  Mr. Clive Soley: I shall concentrate my remarks on part 3, clause 8. This is the part of the Bill most affecting London boroughs. I am thinking particularly of my own area, the London borough of Hammersmith. The constituency of North Hammersmith contains a very large GLC estate known as White City. After the war, that was a very popular estate. However, the introduction of modern domestic methods such as washing machines and spin dryers started its decline. The kitchens and bathrooms were too small for the machines to be installed. The usual problem of decay of an estate took place. It is now a very unpopular estate as a place to live. Major attempts are being made to refurbish it and bring it up to standard. If an estate of that nature is to be transferred to a local authority, one needs to be sure that

  723
  the local authority has the resources to deal with it.
  These are issues that dramatically affect people in North Hammersmith and, I am sure, most London boroughs. Will the GLC give sufficient resources in terms of staff and money to the boroughs to maintain housing at a good standard? Another important question is whether the tenants of the GLC and also the boroughs will be kept informed of the progress of negotiations. I am sure that other hon. Members have shared my experience of having numerous people coming to one's surgery asking what is happening and whether the transfer is to take place. They are anxious about repairs, where they will go to pursue their complaints and whether the local office will still be available. It is sometimes forgotten that the GLC provides local offices.
  8.15 p.m.
  I was amazed to hear recently that the Conservative chairman of the housing committee of the Conservative-controlled London borough of Hammersmith is experiencing difficulty in getting information from the Conservative-controlled GLC. I have heard a statement along the lines that there have been some problems in obtaining all the necessary information from the GLC. The information may not be available. It may be available only in some incomprehensible form, or there may be some concern about secrecy, which often occurs in this country. I am willing to concede that the GLC is unlikely to be planning an intercontinental ballistic missile base in the middle of Hammersmith. I therefore attribute the situation to lack of knowledge. What are the tenants to be told? Initially they were told that they would be transferred in January. Now it is April. What is to happen next.
  Mr. Race: October.
  Mr. Soley: It may be October and then perhaps the following year. How will the tenants be convinced that the new landlords will be able to carry out the task given to them. If the Conservative-controlled London borough of Hammersmith is anxious about its ability to maintain standards, is it not reasonable that the tenants also should be anxious? I know that I would kick up a stink if my tenancy
  724
  was transferred without consultation or discussion. I understand well the anger of the tenants. It is significant that the tenants have decided to hold a meeting of residents living on the estate, numbering thousands of people. I shall attend that meeting. I shall listen with interest to what the London borough of Hammersmith and the GLC have to say.
  The trouble is that the London borough of Hammersmith accepts the principle of transfer but wants the minimum extra cost over and above the compensation for the GLC. That is an interesting statement in its own right. It means that the London borough of Hammersmith will have to find extra money when it is already enthusiastically administering cuts in public services. If the authorities pursue this policy—a policy with which I fundamentaly disagree because it is an assault on the quality of life of people in the area—they have to find more money. Where is that money to come from? Without increases in the rates, it will mean more cuts. This has a domino effect. One cannot ignore the effect on other services. We have the absurd situation where a housing committee is trying to hold on to its budget while the social services committee, controlled by a Liberal to the Right of the Conservative Party, is willing to implement cuts. He ends up cutting a children's home by January next year and dispersing children who have been at that home for many years. It is not a matter of moving the children en bloc as a family. It is a matter of dispersing them. I shall be taking up the matter in the House because it involves bad child care. Regardless of what one thinks about cuts, it is a case of unacceptable standards of child care. Yet that is what happens when a council tries to hold the rates down and extra burdens are put upon it which it cannot meet.
  If the Bill is to go through in its present form, the people of Hammersmith, particularly the White City tenants and those living in other GLC properties, and I will want to know where the resources are coming from. Are they equal to, and preferably more than, what they possess already? Will they be kept fully informed? At the moment, they are not. There is total uncertainty, which leads to rumours and to fears which in housing matters are understandable.

  725
  When the GLC pursues its policy of council house sales, extra resources are required from the GLC as well. I could also give examples of people who have had to be pushed down the housing list because houses have been kept empty for sale. In Hammersmith and immediately around it houses are being kept empty, the hope being to sell them. It is a common experience when I write to the GLC to get the answer "Sorry, there are no more GLC houses available of the kind that we are talking about in the western area. Please ask your constituent if he is prepared to move out of London or to the north or the east of London." The domino effect is particularly important here. There is no way that Hammersmith can carry this burden unless it receives the money—and in a big way.
  It is not just a question of transferring staff, though that is important enough in its own right. It is a question of making sure that they have the money available to give people a standard of housing to which they are entitled so that we can finally bury the idea that council house tenants are in some way second-class citizens.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): It may help the House if I intervene briefly now to cover one or two issues. First, the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race) must not perpetuate the myth that the Government have cut housing expenditure by £300 million. If he would bother to read the speech of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State yesterday, he would see in columns 464 and 465 of Hansard that all we have done is reduce a paper spending figure which was not going to be achieved this year, as it was not achieved last year. Those are the facts.
  The transfer of GLC estates is not, as the hon. Gentleman implied, a party political matter. The previous Secretary of State is on record as saying that he supports the principle of transfers. The authorities wishing to take housing stock include councils controlled by both of the main parties—46 of them to date—and this all stems from the 1963 Act.
  Much work has already been done in preparation for these transfers. The GLC and the 46 authorities are anxious that
  726
  they should take place as soon as possible. It is in no one's interest that there should be any undue delay or uncertainty—least of all the staff. However, all parties want the hand-over to take place as smoothly and efficiently as possible, with the minimum of inconvenience to the staff affected and with no disruption of the service to the tenants.
  A number of authorities which had been planning to take housing stock on 2 January, particularly those taking the largest amounts, have become doubtful as to whether a smooth transition could be achieved by that date. Moreover, the staff associations involved have asked for more time to complete their negotiations on the detailed terms for staff transfer.
  There are three precedents for the creation of staff commissions and they have all worked most smoothly. One dealt with the reorganisation of London local government in 1965, one dealt with the reorganisation of English local government in 1974 and the third has been looking into the transfer of staffs from new town corporations to the appropriate district councils. I expect no new problems to arise in the case of London.
  Mr. Race: Does my hon. Friend not agree that the staff commissions established previously—to deal with the consequences of the 1972 Local Government Act in particular—deal with situations in which individual employees have been transferred from authority to authority on the same nationally negotiated pay rates between those authorities? Was it not the case that individual problems arose about how a particular employee could be slotted into the new scales as they applied in his new local authority employer?
  Is not the case of the GLC and the London boroughs different, in that there is separate negotiating machinery for the GLC, with separate rates of pay and conditions of service, so that the terms of employment of those employed by the GLC are separate and distinct from the terms of employment of those employed by the London boroughs?
  Is it not therefore true that the problem is not an individual one relating to particular employees but one relating to the total number of employees being transferred, the generality, which is quite separate from the previous commissions on

  727
  staff transfer? Is it not therefore reasonable to ask for the kind of assurances that I have been seeking this evening?
  Mr. Finsberg: I do not think that they are all that different. The hon. Gentleman must recall that this is not the first batch of housing to be transferred by the GLC to the boroughs: it is the second. He must also recall that there is separate negotiating machinery for the new towns as opposed to the district councils, so the precedents are there, and there have been no problems. The hon. Gentleman will see from the last report of the new towns staff commission how the work has gone satisfactorily. I believe that there is not the sort of problem that he expects.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) said, it is in response to representations from the London Boroughs Association and the Association of District Councils that the Leader of the GLC housing policy committee has now recommended that there should be one round of transfers to take place on 1 April 1980 instead of the two which were previously envisaged.
  From the conversations that I have had with various representatives of staff at County Hall in particular, I am certain that this is a sensible decision which will give all concerned plenty of time to complete the necessary arrangements before transfers take place.
  As hon. Members know, a shadow staff commission has already been set up but it cannot have the statutory status it needs until the Bill becomes law. Moreover, the staff transfer and protection order which is urgently needed to allow proper preparatory work to proceed cannot be made until the statutory staff commission is in being, because that order must refer to the staff commission and its role in appeals.
  Any further delay that this Bill encounters is only delaying the proper working of the machinery that we propose to set up to protect staff interests. It is not fair to the staff or to the people who employ them to leave this area of uncertainty as the transfer date approaches.
  I should tell the hon. Member for Wood Green that the cost of staff commissions has always been met by the
  728
  central Government. Therefore, he will not have the joy of trying to surcharge Sir Horace Cutler or anyone else.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: Is it not true—this is not a party point—that there is no way that the GLC or the Government can pay these people to carry out the sort of work they have been doing until the Bill is passed by the House?
  Mr. Finsberg: The Government are paying for this, as they have in the past. On the last occasion that we debated this matter, the hon. Gentleman asked for the total amount, and I gave him then an estimate of about £80,000. I am glad to be able to tell him that it looks as though it will come to £60,000. I think that he will get value for money and that the staff will get the benefits they want.
  All the authorities involved in these discussions have made great efforts to comment on the draft order in good time. I had hoped to give the House this evening a firm indication of when the order will be laid, but I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it would be undesirable, if that can be avoided, to lay an order covering only half the story and leaving out the most important element. I think that all hon. Members would accept—certainly I firmly accept, as a former parliamentary adviser to NALGO—that the role of the staff commission in appeals must be in that order.
  Until the Bill receives the Royal Assent we shall not be laying the order. I hope that I can soon allow the order to be laid, so that the staff can get the protection they want. The most important thing is to end the uncertainty. I hope that the House will endorse that point of view.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Bidwell: I wish to deal with that part of the Bill which relates to the fire brigade services and the arrangements under GLC powers for permitting vehicular access to the highway.
  Although I have no fundamental objection to that part of the Bill, which has a width of application and discretion, none the less in certain instances the ambulance service and the fire brigade have to use the highways as much as they have done in the past. Those services fear a cutback in manpower and appliances as a result of the helter-skelter path taken

  729
  towards public expenditure cuts. The position of the fire brigade was brought to my attention by the Ealing branch of the Fire Brigades Union. That branch pointed out to me that the service is seriously under threat.
  We shall be debating matters concerning London next Friday, and I am grateful that that facility has been afforded. A good debate on London in general and the powers of the GLC and borough councils is overdue, and we shall take ample opportunity to ventilate our points of view. Therefore, this debate comes as a precursor to the other. It is admitted by the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) that it has become a stop-gap Bill and has been changed in some respects in order not to obstruct the Government's plans as regards public expenditure.
  When I read all the documents that had been issued, I was forced to take part in the debate and to deplore the amended part of the Bill. When it came before the House for Second Reading it contained a clause that enabled London borough councils to guarantee the repayment of loans made to persons who wished to extend or improve industrial and commercial buildings. The idea behind that was to assist employment within London. The growth of unemployment in London is worrying. The general depopulation of London has led to many problems, such as the position of schools.
  Any Government would have been forced to accept some resulting reorganisation of capital expenditure. I concede to the central Government, who have to impose such reorganisation on the Greater London Council, that perhaps the situation had become lax. However, they seem to be going from the ridiculous to the "gorblimey".
  The Bill comes at a time of considerable anxiety about the level of public expenditure cuts. There is a political regime—the Conservative Party—in control of the Greater London Council and many of the boroughs which does not pay sufficient attention to the way those services are run down.
  Much emphasis has been laid on the question of housing. I accept the point made by the Under-Secretary that the transfer of GLC housing stock to the boroughs is not a party political matter.
  730
  There has been discussion about it, and I was a member of the executive of the London Labour Party when some of the Labour-controlled boroughs were in favour of accepting the transfer of GLC housing stock. I entirely accept that it is a non-party issue. Many Labour-controlled authorities would have been pleased to take the new publicly owned housing stock under their wing.
  The Bill, however, is introduced at a time when we have a Government who are making a fetish of selling council housing stock. For the majority of those on low incomes in the London area that is tantamount to giving away that housing. Through the attitude of the Conservative-controlled boroughs and the Conservative-controlled GLC the ability of people to transfer from one type of dwelling to another has been impeded. That has aggravated the anxiety of young mothers in tower blocks that they will never have a house with a garden.
  We have never believed that there are no circumstances in which local authority housing stock should be sold. From my studies of race relations in Bedford I learnt that that authority had built houses with the intention of selling them. That is acceptable. However, GLC, borough council and housing association stock has been the subject of public discussion. Hard-working people on local authorities, including the GLC, have over the years worked out what they consider to be a balanced allocation of local authority housing in the total housing stock. It is wrong to impose an artificial policy to disturb that balance.
  I have been in the House for 14 years and I ask the many Tory Members whom I know to re-think that policy. The doctrinaire attitudes of the people in Tory Central Office cannot be carried through. Their policies are creating a situation where there are far too many empty houses in the GLC housing stock. That mocks the homeless and the young women in trying to bring up their children in inadequate housing.
  In my constituency, unlike the general trend in London, there is no reduction in population. It is increasing. We have the largest community of Asian origin, and they are now in the third generation—the babies of the babies. They belong to this country and were born here. They

  731
  are looking for employment. There is no question of sending them back to where their fathers or grandfathers came from, and both major parties accept that. We must consider the future housing prospects of these people.
  On the question of local authority stalling, I bow to the superior knowledge of my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race), who has a strong trade union background. His involvement with this House is limited, however. If it were not he would not have made the mistake of calling the Under-Secretary his hon. Friend. However, in spite of that, my hon. Friend will find that there are certain limited friendships across the Floor of the House. Who am I to complain about such attitudes of friendship when I say that there should be two-party consensus on race relations so that the subject is taken out of the cockpit of party political wrangling?
  I urge the GLC to get on with the job of transferring the housing stock and not to leave any impediment. I appeal to it for God's sake not to leave any of it empty under its policies because that housing is desperately needed.
  Mr. Stuart Holland: I wish to concentrate my attention on clause 8, and especially the provision
  "for the transfer of staff consequent upon the transfer of housing accommodation or land"
  or
  "for the purpose of the management of housing accommodation or land".
  Hon. Members have already expressed clear concerns about staffing, and I wish to deal with the role that will be given to the staff concerned in respect of key housing and related employment needs in the area. It is not clear that those who will be called upon to undertake new responsibilities will be part of the best structure possible to fulfil them. Because of the overall strategy of the GLC, in the context of the clause, and because of the policy of council house sales and the sale of land in which this staff will be engaged, a chronic crisis has broken out in my constituency.
  In practice, Lambeth has about 1,400 homeless people apart from its waiting list. In addition there are several hundred single homeless people in the area. In
  732
  effect, because of the GLC policy of council house sales the door has been slammed on the exit from this inner city area to outer areas. I am not saying that people want to move away from Vauxhall, but we have grave problems because the GLC is not appropriately allocating staff to analyse the mass of social and economic problems from which the area suffers.
  For instance, there is a public inquiry on the Coin Street site, a well enough known site by the South Bank theatre, on which planning permission is being sought by various companies in respect of the equivalent of 11½ Centre Point buildings.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): Order. I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about the sale of council houses and that sort of thing. His comments in that respect would be in order in a general debate, but not on this Bill. The hon. Gentleman said that he was relating his comments to the clause dealing with the commission on the transfer of the council's housing staff.
  Mr. Holland: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. However, I am concerned that the GLC is not making the kind of allocation of staff which, if it wishes to go ahead with this transfer, is necessary. The council is effectively failing in its responsibility to ensure that adequate staff are allocated to take account of an increasing problem in the area.
  8.45 p.m.
  What is the definition of housing staff? Is it those employed at administrative level or as housing officers responsible for housing allocation? Is it, in a wider sense, the responsibility of the GLC to ensure that housing needs will be adequately met while the needs and the skills of the staffs concerned are adequately fulfilled?
  There are major problems of inadequate housing versus office speculation in the north of my borough, and I submit that the council should be making provision to increase staff in my constituency, though I appreciate that this view is not completely shared by my colleagues. There is considerable concern that in this transfer the GLC is dumping unwanted estates on Lambeth.

  733
  These estates are in real crisis. The Brandon estate is an example. I received a letter from Sir Horace Cutler this week concerning a problem in Fitzalan Street. That street could be anywhere but it happens to be in my constituency—in an area where the GLC has failed for years to find alternative accommodation for those who wish to live in that street. That is despite the fact that Sir Horace Cutler has admitted to me that it is responsibility of the GLC, which scheduled the houses for demolition.
  We are in a no man's land of relative authority and responsibility where the buck is being passed by the GLC. We are in a situation where, among other things, it is claimed that the submissions made by Members of Parliament on behalf of tenants living in appalling conditions cannot be met in a climate of economic cuts. Even though some of those tenants suffer from rats, are living in chronic damp and have collapsing ceilings in their homes, we are told that there are not enough staff available to be able to deal appropriately with these problems. Under the terms of this Bill, in this sense, the GLC is passing the buck.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: What is even more disastrous is that the GLC has already run down the construction branch from 1,200 to 600 operatives in advance of the transfer. That means that the quality of the properties transferred is deplorable because the GLC did not have sufficient staff to keep those properties in good order. That was a deliberate decision by the GLC.
  Mr. Holland: I am grateful for that comment. On the Ethelred estate in my constituency we have a chronic housing problem precisely because the GLC did not allocate enough staff for the supervision of some of the estates under its control. On that estate, one of the densest in London, which was built not by direct labour but by a private contractor of the kind who should have been a model for publicity for "CABIN" during the general election campaign, the concrete floors were not of the specification required and are now turning to powder. Various attempts to correct this fault are not working. As a result we may have to evacuate whole buildings on that estate if the transfer takes place to Lambeth
  734
  Council. We will have to find alternative accommodation for the people concerned precisely because there were not enough staff to supervise that estate. This is in a situation where Lambeth council, in difficulty, can hardly cope with its current housing problems, and where hardly anyone is able to move off the transfer list.
  Not only can people not move to outer London, as they could before the GLC sale of council homes, but within Lambeth itself we are now having to allocate virtually all our housing resources for repairs and maintenance. A high proportion of this repair and maintenance work is on GLC estates. It is shocking that the GLC is seriously asking this House to accept the transfer of these estates under the conditions from which many of them at present suffer.
  The question of employment is very relevant. It arises in the direct employment of the staff, and that issue is certainly of direct concern to the debate. But we do not need in itself a transfer of staff, nor in itself less staff. We actually need more GLC and local council staff to be able to analyse some of the chronic problems of job loss in the inner city area.
  Let us take again, for example, the question of GLC backed office development versus housing, as on the Coin Street site. We are in a ridiculous situation. Virtually every serious study, whether it be the recent Norant report in France, the Siemen study in Germany, or the Manpower Services Commission report, predicts that a vast surplus of office accommodation will follow from the loss of clerical jobs in the next 10 to 15 years through the application of word processing and data processing machines. In what serious sense can one think that we can simply tolerate the transfer of the existing rundown functions by the GLC to the other boroughs when the GLC is not facing its own overall responsibilities in the question of housing versus offices?
  I gave evidence about the Coin Street site last week. No analysis has been done by the GLC staff of the indirect social costs of putting up office development rather than housing. Virtually every other country has extensive social cost-benefit analysis of these costs, and the GLC has not undertaken such an analysis

  735
  of these costs. A lawyer's brief is simply put for a property company's case which is effectively fronted by the GLC. That is the essence of the submission on that count.
  In this context, I regret that the original clause 9 of the Bill, concerning the creation of employment, the guarantee of loans for local authorities and the guarantee of loans by the GLC to give financial assistance to industry, has been withdrawn. It is clear that in practice there can be no serious expectation of the regeneration of the inner city following the withdrawal of that clause and no serious expectation of reversing the massive—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must understand that this is the consideration stage and not the Second Reading of the Bill. He must relate his remarks to what is in the Bill and not to what he would like to see in it.
  Mr. Holland: In the context of what is being transferred for the purpose of the management of housing accommodation, and of such staffing problems as arise in consequence—for example, under clause 8(3)(b) the problems that will arise for the staff concerned in going to the local council because of the way in which the GLC has not properly fulfilled its responsibilities before the transfer—we have no adequate assurance about the terms and conditions on which those staff will be employed. The GLC is not addressing itself to the kind of work on which they should be employed, and which is directly relevant to the major housing problem and the major employment problem in London. In these respects, this is a thoroughly inadequate Bill. It does not face up to the real issues in inner London today.
  Mr. William Shelton: By leave of the House, I should like to answer some of the very pertinent questions put during the debate.
  The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown) asked me when the boroughs would use their powers with reference to parking on footpaths. I said that this was a matter for the individual boroughs. Indeed that is so.
  736
  Nevertheless, the power has to be brought into force by the GLC. There are negotiations taking place at the moment between the boroughs and the GLC to reach a measure of agreement. A conclusion has not yet been reached, and I do not think that any assurance can be given about 1980. It is a matter for the GLC to accept, and presumably it will accept the advice of the boroughs.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that information. Will he, through the promoters of the Bill, make it clear to the GLC that the London boroughs are desperate? As we stressed on Second Reading, we cannot get the police to operate unless we have the provision. I hope that the GLC and the boroughs will not argue the matter out. We would like October 1980 as the latest date for implementation.
  Mr. Shelton: I shall pass on the hon. Gentleman's observations and add my voice to his. I am aware of the same problems in my constituency.
  Most of the burden of the debate centred on clause 8—the staff commission. I hoped, as it turned out vainly, that it would be non-controversial. However, I agree and accept that it trails a fairly controversial cloak behind it. The hon. Members for Wood Green (Mr. Race), Newham, North-East (Mr. Leighton), Hammersmith, North (Mr. Soley), Vauxhall (Mr. Holland), and others had much to say. With their permission, I shall not comment at this stage about the transfer of houses as that is outside the terms of the debate and it has been debated many times.
  I shall try to give some brief and specific answers to some of the questions that have been raised. I express my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State. His remarks were very helpful and went some way to answer some of the questions. The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch asked how the money had been spent. The answer is that it was spent by the Government, as is normally the case, and for the London housing staff advisory committee. I find it extraordinarily difficult to pronounce the name of that committee. The money was spent properly by the Government.

  737
  The obsession about Sir Horace Cutler showed itself every now and again. I did not keep score of the number of times the hon. Gentleman mentioned Sir Horace, but when I next speak to him I shall congratulate him on having scored at least a few more hits.
  The hon. Member for Wood Green asked whether the staff commission would, should, or could replace the advisory committee, if I may call it the advisory committee rather than the London housing staff advisory committee. It is a decision for the Secretary of State and does not come within this measure. If one can go by precedent, the answer is probably "Yes". The staff commission will probably replace the present advisory committee according to precedent.
  What powers will be given to the staff commission? I understand the concern of those involved that proper account should be taken, and I can give an encouraging reply. I understand that negotiations are proceeding satisfactorily and are moving towards a satisfactory conclusion between the boroughs, the GLC, the advisory committee and the trade unions involved.
  9 p.m.
  I hope that the conclusion of the consultations will be agreement on a code of practice in the not too far distant future. It is for the Secretary of State to decide what should be referred under clause 8(3) (b) to the staff commission. If we judge by precedent and assume that he will take advice, it is probable that the code of practice will be used by the staff commission in reaching its decisions and making its recommendations. The code of practice will cover most, if not all, of the various matters raised. I am glad to give the assurance that there is already a great measure of agreement and goodwill. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State said, in other instances not too dissimilar matters have proceeded without too much difficulty and without too many problems.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North how tenants are being kept informed. They are kept informed in a variety of ways, but principally by meetings that are being arranged by the Greater London Council and by the boroughs where appropriate.
  738
  The hon. Gentleman said that some of his constituents have not been kept informed. Is the hon. Gentleman unaware that the borough of Hammersmith is one of the few boroughs that have not yet decided whether to accept transfer from the GLC? That being so, it is not surprising that there have been no tenants' meetings. The borough happens to be Conservative-controlled. That reinforces the remarks of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State that the issue is not party-political.
  Mr. Soley: I quote from a letter from the Hammersmith council, which states:
  "you will already be aware that the council has agreed in principle to accept the GLC properties."
  It is the feeling of the tenants that they are not being kept fully informed. Much more important in a sense in terms of the hon. Gentleman's argument, although not in terms of mine, is that the London borough of Hammersmith feels that the information is not forthcoming. That is a major problem. I ask the hon. Gentleman to guarantee that he will put all the pressure he can on the GLC to abandon its obsession with secrecy and ensure that full and frank information is available to the borough and the tenants. There is an agreement in principle. There is no reason to say that information should not be forthcoming.
  Mr. Shelton: If there is an agreement, I must apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I was informed that an agreement was expected shortly but that it had not yet been ratified. I shall convey the argument that he has advanced. I assure him that the GLC will be in close touch and communication with the London borough of Hammersmith.
  I have been asked about London weighting and whether that will be honoured. The answer is that it will be protected. "Protected" means that in certain instances the employees may be given the option of having the weighting bought out by a capital sum. That will be a part of the code of practice, and it is a matter that is now under discussion. The answer is "Most certainly, yes".
  I have been asked whether the resources will be equal if the boroughs take housing stock from the GLC that require considerable expenditure. This is a matter of concern to many boroughs. It

  739
  has been discussed and ventilated in Lambeth, which decided not to take GLC housing stock.
  Some remarks have been made this evening about the standards of the GLC. If they were lower, surely it was better for that stock to be transferred to the boroughs. Nevertheless, provided that the rents and standards are equal, the GLC gives the assurance that it will continue to provide as much finance as at present for the maintenance of the stock—what a wretched phrase that is—of houses and flats until they show a surplus. Any major modernisation schemes for the houses and flats that are transferred will also be paid for by the GLC until they, too, show a surplus on account. Should there be any appalling problems such as there were with the high alumina concrete in high-rise flats, the GLC would pay for the repairs on the same terms and the same qualifications.
  Mr. Stuart Holland: The issue is not that simple. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman was serious when he said that if the standards were lower it would be better to give the housing stock to the boroughs. It depends whether the boroughs have the real resources with which to manage the stock effectively. I am sceptical about whether the GLC will be in a position to transfer stock with provision for moderinsation, improvement or maintenance until the properties show a surplus. In what way can it possibly know what further cuts the Government have in the pipeline?
  Yesterday, the Secretary of State for the Environment referred to the simple arithmetic of cuts. He said that 2½ per cent. only a few years ago added to 2½ per cent. now was no worse than 2½ per cent. previously. All the same, it is still 5 per cent. If the cuts are continued there will be a problem. This is not just a matter of cash. We cannot clear our estates in Lambeth to undertake the modernisation and repairs that are needed. Nor will we be able to do so with GLC stock if we do not have the properties to which we may decant the people. The GLC slammed the door on us by not making it possible for us to move the same number of people out of the inner London area at the same time.
  Mr. Shelton: It will be with some reluctance that I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman the next time he asks. At least I am speaking for the second time with the leave of the House. I had hoped that by my not giving way previously the hon. Gentleman would find in what I intended to say the answer to his question.
  The answer is this. The GLC will pay for what needs to be done within the qualifications I gave. That is eminently satisfactory and sensible.
  I understand the divergence of views about the transfer of stock. It is not a party political matter. It was envisaged in the original Act under which the GLC was set up. It was given a fair wind by the previous Government. My view of the GLC has always been that it should be a statutory authority. However, we are not discussing that tonight. Even in saying that, I have digressed. We are discussing setting up a staff commission, which is urgently needed to help those whom hon. Members on both sides represent. They need the staff commission. It would be unfortunate if, for reasons attached to the staff commission, the House took a different view of the Bill. I ask the House to give the Bill a fair wind and to send it on its way with our blessing.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended, considered accordingly; to be read the Third time.

  CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Order for consideration, as amended, read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Grant: I shall not need to detain the House very long. First, I should explain that I am speaking because my hon. Friend the Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke), who has been in charge of the Bill and has conducted it so effectively throughout the year, has been translated to the post of Government Whip, a position in which we are pleased to see him. Nevertheless, this year, being the Master of the Guild of

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  Freemen of the City of London, I am delighted to stand humbly in his place.
  The Bill received a Second Reading on 6 March when it was fully and seriously debated by hon. Members on both sides of the House. Having read the debate, but not having taken part in it, I can say that we had a most helpful discussion in every way. The Bill received an unopposed Second Reading. No doubt that was because of the admirably lucid speech by my hon. Friend—a speech which was praised by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The Bill then went into Committee where again it was carefully considered. The detail of the Bill was investigated throughout the six days of the Committee stage. However, apart from some drafting amendments, the Bill emerged from the Committee's scrutiny virtually intact. The Committee complimented the petitioners on the way in which the Bill had been presented and in particular on the way in which ecological interests, which concerned a number of hon. Members, had been safeguarded.
  I do not need to go over the purposes of the Bill because they have already been fully debated. I would make only two observations which are of great interest to me. The first is that the Bill helps among other things tourism which is immensely important for this country in general and for London in particular. Therefore, it is supported by the London Tourist Board.
  The other observation concerns a matter which was stoutly debated—the development of the M25. We all have our own views about the M25, but I think that I am entitled to claim that its development is necessary. Therefore, the Bill, which has a small contribution to make to it, affects areas beyond the boundaries of the City of London.
  For example, Harrow has great traffic problems. I asked the Minister of Transport in the Labour Government what effect the development and building of the M25 would have on the flow of traffic in the town of Harrow. I was told authoritatively by my right hon. Friend's predecessor that it would reduce the traffic flow in Harrow by 10 per cent. That is one example showing why the M25 is important and the Bill make a vital, though small, contribution to it.
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  I need do no more than commend the Bill and ask that it be considered.
  Mr. Reg Race: I want to raise two matters concerning the Bill. First, I should like an assurance on clause 12 relating to the development of the new Billingsgate market which is to move to West Ham. My concern is to ensure that the site of the old Billingsgate market is not developed until the archaeological community has had the opportunity of digging the site on a proper basis for a good length of time.
  I say that for a very specific reason. The site is regarded by the archaeological community as possibly holding within it very important Roman and medieval buildings which underlie the existing Billingsgate market. It is quite clear that, if development is allowed to take place furiously once the existing market is transferred, without archaeological investigation taking place, we may lose very considerable finds of international interest that might otherwise be discovered.
  I hope that we can have an assurance from the sponsors of the Bill that no such rapid development is intended, and that, if there is the opportunity for achaeological digging on the site, it will be carried out properly through the department of urban archaeology at the Museum of London, because I believe that that is the best way for it to be done.
  Clause 18 relates to museum charges. I should like to know whether the provisions in the clause relate to the operation of general museum charges in the City of London, as distinct from charges for particular exhibitions of note held from time to time at museums in the City of London. I would be greatly concerned—as would many Labour Members—if it appeared that private legislation was being used to introduce into the museums on a general basis the principle of admission charges.
  That proposition has been resisted by Labour Members for a good many years. It was resisted when the Conservative Government introduced it in 1971. It would be tragic if we were to accept the Bill this evening on the basis that clause 18 related simply to particular exhibitions when in fact it related to the generality of museum charges. If that were to be the case, Labour Members would take a

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  quite different view of the Bill as a whole, and might wish to reconsider their position. I hope, therefore, that we shall have a really specific and firm assurance from the sponsors of the Bill that that is not intended.
  Mr. Stanley Newens: The Bill deals with a number of issues with which I do not wish to concern myself at any great length this evening. I agree with both points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race). It is important for us, living in a country in which we have the good fortune to have a great archaeological heritage, that we should take every possible step to see that it is not in any way destroyed. Proper opportunity should be given for a full examination to be made before any development takes place on a site as important as Billingsgate Market.
  I also agree with what my hon. Friend said about museum charges. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Miss Richardson) and I raised the very same issue on Second Reading. Accordingly, I would like to add my voice to the remarks made by my hon. Friend on charges.
  The real reason why I have risen to my feet this evening is that I am still concerned about part II of the Bill, which deals with Epping Forest. This section arises from the proposals for the construction of the M25 motorway through the forest. This inevitably means that part of this unique area will be buried under road works. The decision to construct the M25 over this particular terrain must cause great concern to those who have a love for the forest.
  We discussed this issue at an earlier stage and hon. Members expressed their views. As was pointed out then, the forest was saved for posterity only as a result of a great battle which was mounted by a number of Victorians and the corporation of the City of London. During the twentieth century the forest might well have died the death of a thousand cuts as a result of the many proposals for housing and road schemes put forward, even since the end of the second world war.
  It is extremely important that all who have a love for the forest should lose no opportunity to emphasise the need carefully
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  to scrutinise all further proposals for road works, housing or any other form of development which may encroach upon it. For this reason, my hon. Friend the Member for Barking and I objected to the Bill at an earlier stage, as a result of which it had a Second Reading debate and hon. Members were able at that stage to express their points of view on the matter.
  Since that time the Bill has been carefully considered by the Committee. I understand that in Committee it was suggested that no further road-works should be permitted within the forest. I believe that I am correct in saying that the Nature Conservancy Council has also expressed its view on this matter. Some observers of the Committee stage thought that the opinion was being expressed that all further road works would be prevented from encroaching on the forest. Since that time, however, it has become clear that the corporation interprets this view as applying only to road works connected with the M25 motorway.
  I have great respect for the position that has been adopted by the corporation over the years in seeking to preserve the forest, and I have expressed my view on this matter on more than one occasion in the House. Once again, I say that the corporation has a very honourable record. None the less, it is important that we should again press very strongly for clarification on this issue. Does the corporation consider that further road works unconnected with the M25 motorway could be favourably considered?
  I recognise that there may be small works which require to be carried out from time to time. But if at any time in the near or distant future road works of a magnitude comparable with those now proposed in connection with the M25 motorway were put forward, that would be a great blow to the forest. If road-works of considerable magnitude are proposed and accepted in the future the forest will be in danger of being destroyed or changed beyond recognition.
  I accept that there is a need for roads. All of us use roads, and it is somewhat hypocritical to suggest that those roads ought to go elsewhere. I appreciate that there is a serious problem here. However, we must ask what the corporation's attitude is likely to be in

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  the event of future proposals for extensive road works within the terrain of the forest. I very must hope that we shall be reassured on this issue.
  Much of the forest has gone under concrete over the last few years. Although other areas of land have in certain cases been added in compensation, any further road works would constitute very serious damage indeed. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) will reply to this point. I trust we shall have some reassurances. Whether or not it is possible to be reassured on this occasion, I want to place on record the fact that there are many hon. Members on both sides who would feel betrayed if, following the construction of the M25, other road works were proposed in a few years' time which destroyed anything like the same area which will be destroyed by the M25.
  I hope that those who may consider these matters in the future will recognise that if roads or other developments are proposed some way must be found of meeting the needs they seek to serve outside Epping Forest if this unique area is to be preserved—for posterity, for recreational and other purposes—in the manner in which our predecessors in the nineteenth century intended. Many of us believe that their attitude represented considerable wisdom on their part.
  Mr. Ronald W. Brown: I intervene very briefly. I confirm what my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) said. At one point I was a little worried because I thought he might ask me to stop supporting the M25. As someone who has lived in my area for a long time, he knows the problems that we face in trying to get rid of the juggernauts that pass through the area.
  When I saw the Minister arrive I thought that we had gone back to Tuesday night. I chided him then for failing to intervene in the row in which I am involved between the GLC, the Hackney borough council and the City of London corporation over the decision to close Tower Bridge to juggernauts, which has resulted in Graham Road in my constituency becoming a thoroughfare for lorries 24 hours a day.
  I intervene now to say "Thank you" to the officials of the City of London corporation
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  who were kind enough to meet me today. I am sure that they found me a most abrasive and unhappy sort of fellow, but they discussed the matter with great care and patience. As a result, a meeting has been arranged for next week, and I should like to place on record the fact that they were most kind and immediately responded to my invitation to discuss whether there was any way in which we could find a solution. I hope that next Wednesday's meeting will perhaps result in some sort of solution.
  I know that the Minister said that he could not be involved, but I believe that a number of issues will arise at that meeting in respect of which his help may be needed. The GLC has willingly agreed to attend that meeting together with the City corporation and the Hackney borough council as well as the police forces of both the Metropolitan Police and the City of London. Therefore, we should have a meeting of some standing which may arrive at some decision. However, if we do get a little bogged down, perhaps the Minister will consider meeting a deputation in order to iron out some of the problems that may arise.
  I am a little concerned about clause 21. I am not in favour of the City of London police—that force has so many policemen per square inch that it is quite impossible. Perhaps the Minister would consider introducing a loan scheme for Hackney where we have an insufficient number of policemen. Perhaps a twinning between the City police and the Hackney police might get something done. The City of London has managed to stop all parking in the city and now we have a hell of a job in Hackney because people are parking there. Perhaps the City police could help us to achieve what they have already achieved in one square mile.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): I rise to give the view of the Government on this Bill, and particularly that of my own Department. This means that I shall not, on this occasion, debate museum charges. I shall leave that to the sponsor of the Bill. I shall also leave the matter of the police in the City and in Hackney to the Home Secretary and the sponsor.

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  My Department's interest is in part II of the Bill which is being put forward in order to enable the completion of part of the M25. The Government are grateful to the sponsors of the Bill, my hon. Friends the Members for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke) and for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant), for having promoted it and assisted its passage. The powers contained in the measure will enable the completion of a fairly vital part of the M25 orbital route around London.
  I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central and other Members who have a constituency interest in the M25 that it remains the highest priority in the Government's road programme and we intend to continue it as quickly as possible. It will be an orbital route around London which will enable traffic, particularly from the Midlands and the North, to find a way around London to Tilbury or the Channel ports on the south coast without adding further to the complications in the centre of the capital. It will also act as a general distributor road linking up the various radial routes out of London and enabling motorists to choose routes which avoid the centre. Perhaps the most important aspect is that it will provide relief for local roads that are particularly congested on the outskirts of London.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central stressed the importance of this road to his constituency and, looking around the Chamber, I would say that my hon. Friends the Members for Bexley-heath (Mr. Townsend) and Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman) and the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown) can look forward to a reduction in heavy traffic of about 10 per cent. in most cases.
  It is the heavy lorry traffic in particular that we expect to be diverted on to the M25. Although in the past I have declined to become involved in the arguments about the local road programmes in Graham Road and Dalston Lane, because they are not the responsibility of the Ministry, the construction of the M25 is expected to reduce the traffic in that locality by between 5 and 10 per cent.
  Mr. Cyril D. Townsend: My hon. Friend's predecessor also pointed out that this M25 was a priority road. Yet for years and years minority groups have successfully held up its construction. Can he really assure us that something is about to happen and that this time it will be completed?
  Mr. Clarke: It is quite right that we should go through the proper procedures. I am not at all anxious to start shortening or avoiding the process of public inquiries which allow people with particular points to make about the route to put their case. Nevertheless, the Government's position is that we wish to get on with this road, subject to statutory procedures, as quickly as possible. Substantial advances are being made. However, this Bill illustrates one of the difficulties. I would not describe the constituents of the hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) as a minority group. Nor would I say that those who are concerned with Epping Forest should not raise a query. They are in the surprising position, because of the position of the forest, of being able to challenge a private Bill. But it is quite right that the matter should have been examined in this way and that the Committee should take a careful look at what happened.
  Mr. Newens rose—
  Mr. Clarke: I shall give way in just a moment. I should like to point out to my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath that progress with the M25 is now very good and we expect that fairly dramatic lengths of it will be under construction in the next year or two.
  At present, 23 miles of the road in five separate sections is open to traffic and 24 miles of road is under construction. The route has been fixed for a further 40 miles, which means that we have finished the statutory procedures, planning is under way on the remaining 33 miles and the latest public inquiry into a 13-mile stretch from the Heathrow airport spur to the M40 at Denham opened on 23 October.
  The position should soon be that very long stretches will be under construction and all but the north-west section of the road should be completed, subject to statutory procedures and the availability

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  of funds during 1984, with the whole road being finished perhaps by the end of 1985.
  Of course, that is subject to statutory procedures—objectors must have a right to come forward—and to resources because there are public expenditure constraints. However, the M25 is under no public expenditure constraints because we are giving it the highest priority in the programme. It is unlikely that any public expenditure considerations applying to the roads programme as a whole will be so severe that they affect progress on the M25.
  Mr. Newens: The Minister referred to my views on behalf of my constituents. I should like to point out that I was not speaking only for my constituents. There are large numbers of people in East London, as well as in west Essex—East London was my home and has been the home of my family for many generations—who are deeply concerned about the preservation of the forest, not merely from the point of view of those living in the vicinity but for those living in urban areas. I hope that it will not be thought that I was speaking on behalf of only a narrow group of constituents.
  Mr. Clarke: I accept that entirely. I was not seeking to narrow the hon. Gentleman's interest and I said that those concerned about the forest are not a small minority group. There is widespread concern and I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) is indicating that he did not have Epping Forest in mind. It is obviously in south London that the groups to which he referred are active at some points along the M25 route.
  Every effort has been made to minimise the impact on the forest. I have stressed the importance of the road, and it appeared that it would not be possible to take a wide route that completely avoided the area of the forest. It would be longer and it would be most uneconomic to take such a wide orbital route. Indeed, the total land take, although outside the forest, would be considerably more. That is why agreement was reached with the conservators on a route that did the least harm to the forest.
  The whole matter has been extensively examined and concessions have been
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  made at various points to try to minimise the environmental impact. The conservators will transfer 14½ acres of forest land so that the road may be constructed. Some of that land is detached from the main body of the forest and is in small strips. In exchange for that, my Department will buy and give the conservators a similar area of land directly adjacent to the forest. There will be no net reduction in the size of the forest.
  Of the land that we are taking, 5½ acres will be required only temporarily while the road is being constructed and that will be returned to the conservators in due course. Another nine acres will be held permanently by my Department, but six acres of that land will be open for public use.
  The major incursion into the main body of the forest occurs at Bell Common and in order to preserve the forest the Department will put the road at that point in a cut and cover tunnel. We have entered into undertakings that are recorded in the Bill not only to cover that section of the road but to restore the land to its existing use, which is a cricket pitch.
  I shall not go through all the precautions that are being taken to protect the forest, but one of the accommodation bridges is to be built wider than normal in order to encourage deer to use it to get across the road. A culvert will also be provided especially in order to enable deer to cross under the road—that will be for those deer that prefer to go under the traffic rather than over the top. Chain link fencing will be erected along the road to prevent deer from straying on to it.
  Landscaping and tree planting will be carried out in order to minimise the ultimate effect on the appearance of the forest. All these matters were carefully considered by the Select Committee which sat on the Bill. There were petitioners against the Bill, obviously motivated by concern for protection of the forest. But the Select Committee has accepted that what has been done is necessary in the national and public interest and that everything possible has been done to preserve the environment of the forest. I hope that view will commend itself to hon. Members.

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  The hon. Member for Harlow asked about other road schemes that might affect Epping Forest. I have no idea what the sponsor and those promoting the Bill want to say on the matter. I will be frank. There are one or two places where my Department might contemplate road schemes that would involve encroachment again on to Epping Forest land. Before the hon. Gentleman becomes extremely alarmed, let me say that they are inconsequential compared with the M25. I am not aware of any major road scheme planned for the area and the possibilities—they are possibilities only that I am talking about—involve only roadside slivers where existing roads might be widened. Any proposal of that kind would have to be considered with the conservators and would be undertaken only following full public consultation when we had taken time to weigh every reaction to any proposals.
  I am not, therefore, able to give an absolute guarantee from my Department of the sort for which the hon. Gentleman asked. I would merely say that the matters we are contemplating are very modest. They are only slivers of land. Nothing will be proceeded with until we have had a chance to weigh up public reaction and to consider whether what is proposed is worth while.
  The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch and I resumed our discussions of two days ago on the question of Graham Road and Dalston Lane and the area between in his constituency. I share his delight that since that time he has made considerable progress. I am reluctant to enter directly, or have my Department enter directly, into discussions about a local road. The Ministry of Transport is responsible for the trunk road network of the country. This involves a very small proportion of the total road length. Decisions about local roads, particularly traffic management decisions, are much better taken by the local authority directly answerable to the local electorate that is most concerned.
  I will nevertheless follow the hon. Gentleman's discussions with the City of London that he has arranged as part of the discussions connected with the Bill. I hope that those discussions reach a
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  successful conclusion and that there is no need to take the matter further. But if he wishes to write to me putting points on which he feels the Ministry can helpfully intervene, I will consider whether this is an exceptional case in which we could take some part. Subject to that, I have made clear that we are in favour of the Bill and commend it to the House. We thank the sponsors for promoting and persevering with it.
  Mr. Frank Dobson: I will be brief. I find myself in the peculiar circumstances of feeling sorry for the City corporation when I refer to clause 18 dealing with charges at the Museum of London. I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race) has already raised one aspect of this matter. As an opponent of museum charges of any sort, I feel perturbed that although the City corporation was prepared to include wording in its explanatory statement making clear that it did not intend to levy any charges at the London Museum
  "at times when the premises are ordinarily open to the public for the purpose of viewing displays of a kind ordinarily provided at the premises "
  this was not accepted as an amendment when the Bill was in Committee. I would like from the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) an undertaking on behalf of the City corporation that, whatever the law may state, it will act within the spirit of those words which it proposed should be included in the Act.
  9.45 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Grant: By leave of the House, perhaps I may reply. I am grateful to hon. Members, who have all raised serious and important points. The hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shore-ditch (Mr. Brown) paid handsome tribute to the promoters in his meetings with them. I am sure that they appreciate what he said and recognise that this is the most civilised way of dealing with these matters. I am sure that they are happy to co-operate with him.
  The hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race) raised an interesting point, new to me, about the need to safeguard archaeological sites. The City is rich in history.

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  I am fascinated by archaeological discoveries; my enthusiasm is exceeded only by that of the City fathers themselves. They are tremendously keen to preserve this heritage. Some people say that they are too enthusiastic, but the hon. Gentleman has only to look at what has happened in the past, starting with the excavation of the Temple of Mithras when Bucklersbury House was being built—my office was nearby—to recognise the concern that the City has for preserving these sites. I am told that those concerned will do everything possible in this direction. They believe that their powers to do so will be enhanced by the Bill, and there will certainly be no impediment. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is reassured by that.
  The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mr. Dobson) raised the important question of museum charges under clause 18. This matter had a curious career. It is true that the Bill not only gives powers to the board of governors to charge for admission to specialised exhibitions and other events but permits them to impose a general charge for entrance to the museum. This has caused some anxiety, although it is permitted under other law.
  In Committee, it was sought to restrain this power, and the promoters had no objection. They had no objection to an amendment which would have added the words:
  "Provided that no charge shall be made under this section for admission, at times when the premises are ordinarily open to the public, for the purpose of viewing displays of a kind ordinarily provided at the premises."
  However, in its wisdom the Committee decided not to accept that amendment, so we are back to square one.
  Perhaps I may reassure the hon. Gentleman. First of all, it is always possible that in another place, where the Bill has to be considered, an amendment will be made. If it is, there will be no obstruction from the promoters. Secondly, in any event, from a practical point of view, I can assure the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the promoters that they intend to operate within the spirit of this provision. It is certainly their intention to deal with charges only for specialised exhibitions and such things.
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  The hon. Member for Harlow (Mr. Newens) has a justifiable concern for Epping Forest. We all do. I love the place, as does everybody in the City. I can reassure the hon. Gentleman by saying that throughout the discussions the corporation has maintained strong opposition to any route which materially affected forest land and has been concerned to secure such arrangements for the construction of the road as would ensure that the chosen route would cause the least damage to the natural aspect of the forest.
  Although I am not authorised to give any specific undertakings, I have tried to demonstrate the City's view. This was thrashed out in Committee for six days, when not only the promoters were heard but the Upshire Village Preservation Society, which was congratulated on the way in which it put its case. The Committee finally approved the provisions of part II on the understanding that no further road development should take place in the forest and that the recommendations of the Nature Conservancy Council for safeguarding ecological interests would be implemented as far as practicable. That is acceptable to the promoters.
  We all understand the dilemma we face in any development of this kind, which always involves pain and suffering somewhere. But the philosophy here was best expressed on Second Reading by the then Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam). Talking of the need to take a small stretch of Epping Forest, he said:
  "I regret that as much as other hon. Members. We have gone to great lengths to protect the amenities of the forest … Failure to complete this road would leave unsolved acute problems of congestion, noise, pollution and danger which would far outweigh its adverse effects."—[Official Report. 6 March 1979; Vol. 963, c. 1211.]
  That is the balance which we have to consider, and I know that the promoters have taken on board the points naturally and understandably put by the hon. Member for Harlow.
  I believe that the right course is to allow the Bill to be considered.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill, as amended, considered accordingly; to be read the Third time.

PRIVATE EDUCATION
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): I remind the House that we now return to the Adjournment debate that was suspended just before 7 o'clock.
Postponed proceeding on Question, That this House do now adjourn, resumed.
9.51 p.m.
Mr. Christopher Price: I pay tribute to the Minister for coming at this late hour. Any strictures that I may have made in this House at half-past six this evening do not apply to him. I understand that, at the point at which the House suspended, he was microseconds away from the Chamber. Had I been allowed to continue with what other hon. Members wrongly called a filibustering effort, we might have started the debate a little earlier.
However, I maintain my opinion that it is wrong in the present circumstances for the House to suspend in such circumstances. There are many Ministers in the Government and there should be at least one from each Department available to come to the House at short notice, especially when it is known throughout the Palace that business is on the point of collapse.
The public support of private education is a matter of extreme importance at present. Throughout the election campaign and more recently, the Conservatives have made it clear that they intend to spend what was originally the sum of £50 million on private education. That sum appears to be rising to £70 million and could well reach £90 million if the pace of inflation accelerates. That is at a time when State education is being cut to a level hitherto unknown.
During recent education questions, my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Mitchell) gave a graphic illustration of the situation in a Southampton State secondary school where his children were having to share one textbook between four pupils. That demonstrates the dire straits of our State schools.
If the Government propose to scoop out between £50 million and £80 million to spend on private education, which is already extremely well endowed, we must examine that proposal carefully and bring it to the attention of the people of Britain.
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It is important to get the whole matter in context, since it is wrong to think that this £50 million is the only public expenditure flowing into private education. In May and June last year I tabled a series of questions to the Department of Education and Science, the answers to which showed the extent to which the private sector of education is already subsidised. I refer hon. Members to the Official Report of 25 May 1978, at col. 726, where they will find a graphic illustration of all the schools in which the Foreign Office supports children. The reply runs to many columns of Hansard, starting with Abberley Hall, Worcester, the Abbey school, Malvern Wells, and continuing through the alphabet with the Convent of Jesus and Mary at Milton Keynes, Kings college, Taunton, St. Mary's convent, Shaftesbury and ending with Yardley Court school, Tonbridge.
I have nothing against these schools, but when the State sector is subject to unusual stringency, even under the previous Government, it seems to be a quite extraordinary phenomenon that this degree of money should be poured into the private sector.
Many of my right hon. and hon. Friends exerted great efforts to draw attention to the situation that existed under the previous Government and to try to ensure that this public subsidy of private schools ceased. I do not want to pursue a particularly vindictive policy, but it should be made absolutely clear that those people who want to take up private education should pay for it and should not be able, as the middle class of this country has historically been so skilled at achieving, to bend the taxes they pay back into their own pockets.
The history of State support for private education illustrates this. Quite apart from the £50 million, or whatever the figure is now, that the Government are proposing to pay, probably about £40 million or £50 million is already spent by local authorities on supporting private schools. Some of that goes into educating handicapped children, which everyone in the House will favour. But more than half goes into straight support for private schools.
In addition, £7 million or £8 million goes by way of direct payments from the

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Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Overseas Development into private education. Therefore, the proposal to double the amount must be seen in this context. It is not as though private education is impoverished or desperately needs the money, as it did during the Second World War, when the Fleming report was published and when proposals were made to put a lot of public money into private education. There was a Royal Commission inquiry into the matter.
It is now an extremely affluent sector, and there is no better illustration of the class nature of the Government than their determination to cut State education and subsidise the private sector. If they get away with that and the existing subsidy of about £50 million is enhanced by a further injection of about £70 million that will be a national scandal. On top of that, the effect on the repeal of the 1976 Act has been to give back to local authorities a complete new freedom to pour ratepayers' money back into private education.
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Cope.]
Mr. Price: This new freedom given to local authorities may induce some Conservative-controlled local authorities, such as Bromley and Bexley—certainly no Labour-controlled authorities will do it—to increase yet again the £50 million that they are already spending on private education to £60 million, £70 million or £80 million.
We are in an extraordinary situation in which youngsters in State schools must share, four to a textbook; where there are not enough pencils, rulers, rubbers and paper with which to work. At the same time, the Government are intent upon using that little bit of float in putting money into private education. It is occassionally said from the Government Benches that the £50 million has nothing to do with the cuts in State education. It is said that it is a bit extra, and is a manifesto commitment.
That it is an easy thing to say from the Government Front Bench, but I am
758
sure that when the bilateral discussions take place between the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Ministers there will be no nonsense like that. The education budget is the education budget, and the Minister knows that. He is an intelligent man and I am sure that he is learning fast. If he has learnt anything, I am sure that he has learnt that. He has a budget, and the idea of the £50 million to £70 million being something extra—icing on the Christmas cake—which has nothing to do with all the cuts in State education, is so much eyewash, and he knows it.
In making my case I must say something about the completely phoney arguments that will be used to justify this public support of private education. One of those arguments is that the support is for the benefit of poor clever kids from the inner city areas. I go back a bit. Every area of privileged education which has developed in the English education system—even more in the Scottish education system; I know something about that since I married a Scotswoman—has been that we are concerned not with the 90 per cent. of privileged children but with the few poor bright kids. That has always been the justification for the creation of many of our public schools and grammar schools.
When I was the deputy chairman of Sheffield education committee I did a survey of that city's primary schools that sent youngsters to ordinary State grammar schools. I found that three or four smart suburban primary schools were sending up to 70 per cent. of their children to grammar school and half a dozen of the inner city primary schools, did not send a single child to grammar schools for five or six years.
This situation existed also under the direct grant system, which we very sensibly got rid of. Indeed, we got rid of it on the recommendation of the Fleming committee, which reported in 1943. If the Minister cares to do a little research he could go back and read that report. It was a split recommendation, though G. D. H. Cole and one or two other people voted the right way. I think that the voting was 13 to seven in favour of making the direct grant system free. Everyone said that the justification for the direct grant schools was the three or four, or the half dozen of two dozen,

759
bright poor youngsters who went to those schools.
Many studies have been made of, and books been written about, the direct grant schools. They have shown that their prime purpose was to give the middle class a privileged education, and that is what they did. The scheme proposed by the Government bids fair to do exactly the same thing. We have heard something so far of the Government's assisted places scheme. I am not straying into legislation here, Mr. Deputy Speaker. One would not know that there was a Bill before the House. Indeed, there is not, for it has not been printed yet. I know nothing of what might be in legislation, but there are rumours, and there have been interviews with a character called Stuart Sexton in the newspapers, and again I do not know who he is. But it all seems to indicate that there may be proposals, legislative or otherwise—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Bill has been presented.
Mr. Price: It has not been published, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and therefore none of us in the House knows what is in it. However, I shall not pursue the point. I go back to the question of the directed grant schools, which is safer ground. If there should be any connection between direct grant schools and the assisted places scheme, it might illustrate a point.
It was claimed for the direct grant schools that because half the youngsters were meant to go to primary schools for a couple of years they would have so many working-class children. It did not work that way. Far too many of the publicly subsidised youngsters who went to direct grant schools would have been paid for in private education anyway and had been fiddled through the system by people who knew how to work it. I do not blame them for working the system. It is a fact of human life that if there is a system to be worked, one works it.
The Labour Government ended this piece of privilege and attempted to put our dwindling resources of public money where it was desperately needed—into those deprived youngsters who needed the money more than anyone else. But now we have the Tory manifesto proposals to turn the whole thing round again. Everything
760
that we have experienced in the past shows that any scheme of this kind, whatever rules may be drawn up, will be subverted by those middle-class people who wish to bend a few more of their taxes back into their own pockets. It is a form of selection by the back door. It is a quite dreadful prospect for our State schools, which are being held back so much, and I hope that it does not happen.
As a Londoner, I knew why it was necessary in London to say "We must get rid of the 11-plus and end the system whereby London is subsidising some of the public schools." Just after the war, there was every justification for the LCC, as it was, sending youngsters to Dulwich college, the City of London school and elsewhere, because it simply did not have enough school places. There were not enough desks to sit kids in.
There were enormous classes—of 60 or 70 pupils in some cases, but with the population dropping fast, if we had kept the 11-plus and continued our support of youngsters in private schools, half the London kids would have been in grammar schools or private schools in some of our deprived areas, and the other schools, the so-called comprehensives, would have been worse than the "sink" secondary modern schools in the worst period of any of our cities. It was quite proper to get rid of the 11-plus as the only hope of building up these comprehensives. I do not know whether the stories now in the air have anything to do with proposed legislation.
London's comprehensive schools have, against all the odds, built up sixth forms with not nearly enough resources. What worries me about the proposals in the Conservative manifesto is that the Government intend to turn London's comprehensive schools back into the sort of elementary schools that they were in the 1920s and 1930s. By creaming off the top pupils they will not leave enough youngsters to run a coherent sixth form. If there is no sixth form, the staff to teach those subjects cannot be recruited and the whole school becomes a declining and depressed institution. It is for that reason that I believe it proper to raise these issues in an Adjournment debate.
We have a slightly extended Adjournment this evening, and it may be that one or two of my hon. Friends have examples

761
of similar problems in other areas. I would appreciate an opportunity for my hon. Friends to intervene.
If projected plans go through, it seems that about £150 million year by year will be put into private education just at the time when our youngesters in primary and secondary State schools cannot be taught properly—quite apart from being deprived of proper school meals and decent school transport. I am convinced that when parents realise that for every book, piece of paper and pencil their youngsters are being deprived of there is a privileged youngster having money put into a private school education for him, they will rise up in revolt. Parents will force the Government to pull back from that commitment, and I believe that many members of the Government would love to wriggle out of the idiotic manifesto commitment.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. George Foulkes: It gives me great pleasure to support my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price). The hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock) said earlier, in the debate on cystic fibrosis, that that disease knows no boundaries. Unfortunately, as we do not have an Assembly in Scotland legislating on these matters, the Government's policy spreads like a disease across the boundary into Scotland.
Public support for private education is already far too high. Private schools have teachers who have been trained at public expense at training colleges and universities. That is public support for private education. It already has charitable status, which means that through exemption from value added tax and through rate relief there is public support for private education. Through the tax system there are benefits to help parents and grandparents pay school fees. That is public support for private education.
It is my hope that when we next have a Labour Government—that will not be too far away—we shall see an end to all the support which exists for private education, as well as anything that the present Government may be proposing to add to it. As my hon. Friend said, not only is it wrong to support this area at the same time as cutting back on public
762
education, but the very existence of suggestions such as the parents' charter and support for individual pupils to leave the State system to go into the private system mean that there will be a distortion of the curriculum within the local authority schools. There is an undue concentration by the teacher on the education of the academically gifted pupil at the expense of pupils who are gifted in other ways, and that will be harmful indeed.
All this is taking place at a time when the Government are suggesting that there should be a major reduction in the provision of school milk, school meals and school transport. It is alleged that the Government are having consultations with the local authorities in my county. It seems that there is no discussion on principles and the harmful effects of the reduction of the provision of meals, milk and transport. It seems that there is discussion only on marginal matters. For example, the suggestion has been made that the authority provide luncheon vouchers to pupils from poor families. Luncheon vouchers are not much good in the rural areas of Ayrshire, on the Western Isles or on Orkney and Shetland. In those areas there is nowhere for them to be used even if they are worth anything, or even if the local authorities are given money by the Government to enable them to provide vouchers.
We are in a sorry state. We see the Government moving towards two nations in education. We see the sector that is already far too privileged receiving additional support while the sector that desperately requires extra resources is being starved. I hope that it is not long before we see the return of a Government pledged to the support of education for all and not merely for the privileged few.
10.17 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): If I may refer to the hon. Member for South Ayrside (Mr. Foulkes) first, I must disabuse him of one thing—he will have to wait a considerable time before there is the return of a Labour Administration.
I express my appreciation to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) for giving my Department as much time as possible by telephoning at six o'clock this evening and allowing it to have the

763
opportunity to respond to a debate. I entirely share his opinion that the opportunity should not be lost. It is a valuable use of parliamentary time.
I am also grateful to the hon. Gentleman for referring to me as an intelligent lad. I have a feeling that he has already written the first paragraph of my next election address. I shall send a copy of it to the Labour candidate, whoever that might be on the next occasion.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the subject now before the House. Over the past years he has had a consistent record on education and science. His background lies in local government and he was Parliamentary Private Secretary to a former Secretary of State for Education and Science. The hon. Gentleman's knowledge is legion. It surprises many of my hon. Friends that his talents have not been recognised. I hope that one day he will move one Bench forward, thereby bringing to education some of the talent that is now lacking on the Opposition Front Bench. I do not mean that disparagingly to the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mrs. Taylor).
The hon. Gentleman is aware of the efficiency of the Department of Education and Science. That is why it was able to respond so speedily to his request earlier this evening. I am grateful to him for acknowledging my presence behind Mr. Speaker's chair as soon as I could be in the House.
It is well known to the hon. Gentleman that the new Education Bill was presented to the House this afternoon at about half-past four. Publication will take place tomorrow. There will be a press announcement at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. All will then be revealed to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, and I shall not run the risk, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of incurring your displeasure by encroaching upon the rules of procedure. If the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend can contain themselves until tomorrow, they will have a good opportunity of reading the Bill for at least two long weekends before Second Reading on 5 November. When they have done so, they will know what is planned for the assisted places scheme. They will have
764
the opportunity to develop their arguments on Second Reading or in Committee.
Many of the arguments have been rehearsed at Question Time over the past few months and during the election campaign. The hon. Gentleman will not doubt have an opportunity, should he catch the eye of whoever is in the Chair, to say a few more words on the subject. I acknowledge that it is an important subject and I know that the hon. Gentleman is deeply concerned about it. He referred in the early part of his speech to some of the financial problems facing the United Kingdom now. It must have grieved him deeply, after the better part of 15 years of Labour administration from 1964, to cite the sad case of Southampton, where four pupils were sharing one book. That happens in many areas. In view of the hon. Gentleman's consistency and concern over education and other matters of welfare, and in view of his record in Sheffield and as a representative of Birmingham, Perry Barr some years ago, it must grieve him that this still exists. Even more so, it must grieve him that for the past four or five years that situation was allowed to get out of control—even more so because it was a Labour-controlled authority at that time.
We must clear up one misunderstanding.
Mrs. Ann Taylor rose—
Mr Macfarlane: I do not think that I can give way. I certainly shall in Committee. I promise to do so as frequently as I can if I have the opportunity. That is a pledge. However, on this occasion, as she did not take part in the debate, I hope that the hon. Lady will not mind if I do not give way. I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentlemen who spoke.
I refer to the assisted places scheme which was mentioned in the Conservative Party manifesto which was presented to the country and resulted in a healthy Conservative majority. I think that I should quote the passage. I know that the hon. Gentleman always considers these matters fully and fairly, even if he

765
does not agree. On page 25 of the manifesto we said, under "Parents' Rights and Responsibilities":
"The direct grant schools, abolished by Labour,"—
I was glad that the hon. Gentleman referred to that—
"gave wider opportunities for bright children from modest backgrounds. The direct grant principle will therefore be restored with an assisted places scheme. Less well-off parents will be able to claim part or all of the fees at certain schools from a special government fund."
We went to the country with that passage in our manifesto. The former Shadow spokesman on education, when the Conservatives were in opposition—now the Leader of the House of Commons—made it quite clear in opposition that we would introduce this scheme. It has had much widespread support from many quarters of the country. Probably the parents in Lewisham will benefit as a result. Better still, children's education will also benefit.
Mr. Christopher Price: I was interested in the quotation. The hon. Gentleman is almost a member of the manifesto group of the Conservative Party in his reliance on these matters. Will he say by what unique method—it has never been done before—he intends to guarantee that the youngsters benefiting from the scheme are poor children?
Mr. Macfarlane: That has always been an integral aim of this scheme.
Mr. Price: How?
Mr. Macfarlane: I shall not go into the details tonight. Obviously I should not be allowed to do so. The hon. Member must contain himself for another 12 or 13 hours. He will be able to read the Bill over the weekend and subsequently discuss it fully on the Floor of the House and in Committee.
It is our intention to help poor children. That is a laudable aim. I should have thought that the Opposition would have seen a great deal of social merit in that exercise.
I must disabuse the hon. Gentleman of another matter. This is a scheme of assistance to children. It is not a scheme of assistance to schools. During Question Time on Tuesday we found an exaggeration entering into some of our exchanges.
766
On Question No. 1, I responded to the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Eastham) when he gave a figure. He said that the scheme would cost £70 million in bolstering the private education system. During the afternoon, the figures rose. Another hon. Gentleman quoted the figure of £90 million. The figure is rising all the time in the eyes of the Opposition.
It is intended that the scheme be set up by the early 1980s. One cannot hope to start it until the year 1981–82. There will be a slow build-up of expenditure to about £50 million. That is the figure. The finance will not be obtained as a result of the expenditure cuts now being made. It will come out of a totally separate fund, as was made clear in the manifesto.
The hon. Gentleman may well [Interruption.]—I am delighted to have attracted a troika of protest on that subject. No doubt it is an appropriate use of the generic on the other side of the House. It is certainly not intended to cost more than £55 million.
Mr. Price: This is the first time that the House has been informed about this totally separate fund. What is the fons et origo? Where does this totally separate fund come from? How shall we find it in the Estimates placed before the House?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the Minister replies, I remind him that he also must not get involved in forthcoming legislation.
Mr. Macfarlane: I am grateful to you Mr. Deputy Speaker, for restoring me to the correct tracks. The hon. Member for Lewisham, West will, in the fulness of time, see the detailed answer to his questions, and all will be revealed. However, it is wrong to say that the scheme will cost a great deal of money in terms of Government expenditure. The earliest possible date for the start of the scheme will be revealed to the hon. Gentleman tomorrow.
Opposition Members will have to wait for the Second Reading debate which has been logged for 5 November. No doubt the Committee stage will start shortly after that. We shall then be able to get into the minutiae of the legislation. We shall be able to dot the i's and cross

767
the t's. I am sure that the Opposition will be looking forward eagerly to the passage of that Bill just as much as we are. It is an important step in education. I hope that hon. Members will forgive me if I say nothing more on this occasion, because it is difficult to forecast and talk about forthcoming legislation in any greater detail.
I hope that hon. Members will read the papers on Saturday, will read the Bill tomorrow morning and read what is said by my right hon. and learned Friend at the press conference tomorrow
768
morning. We attach great importance to this scheme. I hope that in the fulness of time the hon. Members for Lewisham, West and for Bolton, West and their hon. Friends will recognise that this measure will make a great contribution to poor young children who will have an opportunity of achieving the kind of education which perhaps otherwise would be denied them. I hope that in time we shall have their support.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-seven Minutes past Ten o'clock.

  RETAIL PRICE INDEX
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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford):
The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Wool-sack.
The Duke of Abercorn—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Lord Wynford—Took the Oath.
The Lord Fairfax of Cameron—Took the Oath.

CIVIL AVIATION ACT 1971: GUIDANCE
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to issue to the Civil Aviation Authority a new and revised guidance under the Civil Aviation Act 1971.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, it is the Government's intention to introduce new legislation before any change is made in the existing policy guidance under the Civil Aviation Act 1971.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether that legislation will deal with the current guidance issued by the previous Government which, as my noble friend knows, had a large hole torn in it by the admirable decision of the Court of Appeal?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot forecast the content of the legislation. I am afraid I must ask my noble friend to await its publication, but I can say that the publication will be very soon.

SALT II, ARTICLE 12: US ASSURANCES
Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with American assurances over Article 12 of SALT II regarding circumvention.
Lord TREFGARNE: Yes, my Lords, the Government are satisfied that British interests are safeguarded.
Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, may I ask whether the Government are still confident that the United States have the capability for monitoring any testing, and so on, which the Soviet Union may conduct in the future, in view of certain happenings in relation to their land-based monitoring capability?
Lord TREFGARNE: Yes, my Lords.

INDUSTRIAL COMPETITIVENESS
3.4 p.m.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the trend in Britain's international competitiveness over the last two years in terms of a common currency, measured (a) by relative increases in export prices; and (b) in unit labour costs; and what are the forecasts for the next 12 months.
The MINISTER of STATE, TREASURY (Lord Cockfield): My Lords, I am arranging to have the relevant figures available published in the Official Report. Figures are available only up to the last quarter of 1978 for relative export prices and to the first quarter of the present year for labour costs. Both series show a loss in competitiveness compared with two years ago. Whether this continues depends upon a number of factors which it is not possible to forecast reliably.
Following are the figures referred to:

Relative export prices

Relative normalised unit labour costs

(1975 = 100)

(1975 = 100)

1977

2nd Quarter

102·2

87·2

3rd Quarter

103·6

88·1

4th Quarter

107·2

91·5

1978

1st Quarter

110·5

95·7

2nd Quarter

104·4

93·1

3rd Quarter

108·0

95·7

4th Quarter

109·6

96·7

1979

1st Quarter

Not available

98·6

Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, would my noble friend agree that when we have a chance to look at these figures they will be very disturbing indeed? Is not one of the main reasons for that the fact that some major industries persist with long out-dated restrictive practices? If my noble friend agrees, will he say how the Government see their role in helping and encouraging industry—that is, management and unions—to get rid of restrictive practices as well as creating a climate in which industry can again flourish?
Lord COCKFIELD: My Lords, my noble friend draws attention to a point of great importance. An improvement in our standard of living can only come from an increase in national output. This depends upon productivity, and an improvement in productivity depends, in part at any rate, on the removal of restrictive practices. The Government are themselves doing their part by squeezing inflation out of the system by following a strict fiscal and monetary policy, and they are providing tax incentives in indirect taxation at all income levels. So far as individual restrictive practices are concerned, that is primarily a matter for the employers and employees of the industries concerned.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether the Government will resign in order to get rid of the greatest restrictive practice?
Lord COCKFIELD: My Lords, the Government are doing a first-class job in
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tackling the very great problems which have been exacerbated by five years of Labour rule, and I am sure that the success of their policies will be evident in the years to come.
Lord ELWYN-JONES: Would not a little modesty now be more prudent, my Lords?
Lord COCKFIELD: I was, my Lords, speaking with all due modesty.
Lord MISHCON: My Lords, would the Minister also speak with some veracity as well as with modesty, and would he in the circumstances agree that investment in industry is a much more important matter than the one he has just been discussing? Does he feel that investment in industry in this country has been facilitated by the complete removal of exchange control over the last 48 hours?
Lord COCKFIELD: Yes, my Lords, investment in industry is a matter of very great importance. Investment depends upon confidence. The Government are endeavouring to restore confidence in industry, not least by squeezing out inflation, which has been one of the greatest impediments to growth and one of the greatest deterrents to investment.
Lord ROBERTHALL: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that the 1944 White Paper, which has formed the basis of our attempts at full employment, calls for particular attention to the necessity for collaboration in the reduction of restrictive practices but that, in spite of all efforts, the problem has got worse rather than better? Will he not also agree that that accounts for the gradual decline in the rate of growth of the GNP?
Lord COCKFIELD: Yes, my Lords. I had the great pleasure of working with the late Lord Keynes at the Treasury while the White Paper to which the noble Lord referred was being written. Its emphasis upon removal of restrictive practices and improvement in productivity is just as valid today as when those words were written 35 years ago.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, does the noble Lord regard it

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as purely coincidental that this trend took a sharp turn for the worse when Britain changed Governments?
Lord COCKFIELD: My Lords, there has been no sharp turn for the worse as a result of the change in Government. In fact, on the contrary, the prospects of this country are much better than they were during the years of the Labour Government.
Lord HATCH of LUSBY: My Lords, will the noble Lord explain to the House why he believes that the removal of foreign exchange controls in this year will have any different effect in British industry from that which it had when it was tried under a previous Conservative Government—when it was tried in 1970 and 1972—when the capital released left this country for other countries?
Lord COCKFIELD: All the evidence, my Lords, is that investment from this country overseas creates export opportunities and therefore improves matters so far as British industry is concerned.
Lord TAYLOR of GRYFE: My Lords, will the noble Lord explain why the confidence that he has expressed in the future is not shared by the Stock Market?
Lord COCKFIELD: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord wishes to look at the history of the Stock Market in any detail, but if he would care to examine the progress of prices under the Labour Government it would give him no great comfort.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, having inquired into the history of the Stock Market, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that since the present Government came to power there has been a steady and uninterrupted deterioration in Stock Market prices?
Lord COCKFIELD: My Lords, the Government are not directly or indirectly responsible for Stock Exchange prices——
Several noble Lords: Oh!
Lord COCKFIELD: ——but if the noble Lord wishes to follow this point, may I remind him that in the heyday of the Labour Government the Stock Ex-
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change Financial Times Index reached the figure of 146, and that today it stands at three times that figure.
Lord LEATHERLAND: And when the Labour Government——
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt this bowling, which my noble friend is hitting for sixes every time, but the House may feel it is time to move on to the next Question.

PRIVATELY RENTED DWELLINGS
3.10 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many dwellings have been lost in the privately rented sector in the United Kingdom since 1974, how many are at present unoccupied, and whether they will make a statement of Government proposals to revive the privately rented sector.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Lord Bellwin): My Lords, the annual average rate of decline in the private rented sector in England between 1971–1977 is estimated at 125,000 dwellings. There is no estimate of the number of unoccupied dwellings which were formerly privately rented. The Government will be introducing a new form of shorthold letting in the Housing Bill this Session, enabling landlords to let on short fixed-term tenancies at fair rents. Landlords will be certain of repossession if they wish at the end of the term, and tenants will be guaranteed security for its duration. Shorthold will not apply to existing tenants. The Government will also bring forward an experimental scheme to encourage new building for rent by approved bodies.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that valuable reply, and welcome the recognition by the Government of the importance of the private rented sector in the housing programme. Can my noble friend give an

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assurance that the Government will review the Rent Act with a greater sense of urgency than the previous Administration, which took five years to do nothing other than grudgingly acknowledge the problem?
Lord BELLWIN: My Lords, the Government attach great importance to the private rented sector, which must be preserved. There are great numbers of people, particularly the young, the single and the mobile who do not want to be, or whose circumstances do not permit them to be, owner-occupiers or council tenants. Housing provision for them must come from other sources. Housing associations can make a valuable contribution, but cannot possibly fill the gap that would ensue if all private renting were to end. This is quite apart from the socially divisive effect of reducing the choice of tenure only to owner-occupation and council tenancy. That is why we are bringing forward proposals to preserve and to revive private renting, and to the extent that looking at the Rent Acts is a part of that we will certainly be doing so.

NORTHERN IRELAND: GOVERNMENT
Lord DENHAM: My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 this afternoon, my noble friend Lord Elton will repeat a Statement on political progress in Northern Ireland.

PROTECTION OF OFFICIAL INFORMATION BILL [H.L.]
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make new provision for the protection of official information and articles. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.— (Lord Belstead).
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

LABORATORY ANIMALS PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
3.13 p.m.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. In rising to put the Motion which stands in my name to your Lordships, and commending the Bill to your Lordships' good favour, I should like to start by thanking all those whose names appear on the long and distinguished list of speakers this afternoon. I am particularly gratified to see the name of my noble friend Lord Adrian, who has selected it for the subject of his maiden speech. His profession particularly well qualifies him to speak on this subject, and I am sure he will win his spurs to your Lordships' entire satisfaction. I shall listen to what he has to say with the greatest interest.
I have stated in earlier debates on other Bills in this field that it is not a field for Private Members' Bills, and my reasons for going into reverse and acting contrary to my previously stated opinions are multifold. Last year, at the season of the party conferences, legislation was discussed based on the slogan of bringing animals into politics. I then decided in my own mind that if this meant bringing them into party politics I was against it. I could imagine no more unedifying spectacle than the parties bidding for the anti-vivisectionist vote in marginal constituencies.
Secondly, I was increasingly exasperated by delays, of which every party and Government were guilty—although I shall acquit the present Government who have not been in office long enough—in bringing legislation up to date and implementing those recommendations of the Littlewood Committee which required legislation, with the result that laboratories of men of science are being vandalised and men of science are being threatened over the telephone, though their only guilt is in doing experiments to try to benefit mankind. These threats, of course, come from what I call the protestational neurotics who infiltrate, soil and sully every reform movement, however worthy. They do not have the support of the genuine animal welfare societies.
Thirdly, it seemed essential to provide the working party of the Council of

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Europe, which is seeking to produce a convention standardising animal welfare legislation throughout the European continent, with a lead based on a new model Act incorporating the one factor that we can contribute to Europe in this field—100 years of experience; the experience of the pioneer which no one else except we has had.
Lastly, I found myself able to recruit an exceptionally able team of helpers, all of whom knew the present Act, all of whom were aware of the ground which it did not cover. These were the recently retired Chief Inspector from the Home Office under the 1876 Act; the then immediate past President of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the Professor of Nutritional Science at the medical school, the Royal Free Hospital; the late chairman of the Council of the Physiological Society and the chairman of the legal committee of the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry. Between them and others who helped, they covered the whole field necessary to contribute to this Bill. We have put in collectively a very hard year's team work and if, for the purposes of this Motion, I speak as I must in the first person singular, I would ask your Lordships to treat it as a colloquialism in so far as I am a kind of"we".
By the end of last year, I had the Bill in advanced draft form and have spent the greater part of this year in polishing it up and convincing my friends in the scientific and medical worlds of its merits as a successor to the present Act. I may say that this has not always been easy, but I nevertheless have gained their support for my introduction of it here this afternoon.
I am not going to take up time in arguing the pros and cons of using animals in the laboratory, 5 million a year, as opposed to killing them and eating them for food, 400 million a year; harvesting their wool and dairy products, putting them to the plough in days gone by, employing them as draught animals generally or entering them for steeple-chases culminating in the Grand National, where an expectable number of them get damaged and killed every year. I also leave aside our relationship with the animals based on their pestilential quality, which requires us to exterminate them
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quite ruthlessly when their activities are incompatible with human activities. I can say only that I think it wrong to inflict more pain than is avoidable in any of these contexts.
I accept that for an indefinite time to come there will be no universal alternative to the use of whole animals in all contexts, and the emphasis here is on my usage of "universal" and "all". I believe that nearly all sensible folk will go along with this view, albeit with variable degrees of personal reluctance. It would be quite wrong to suppose that men of science are strangers to this reluctance. They, too, are animal lovers. Working with animals fosters care for them, due to the need to keep them in good health during the course of an experiment. It does not breed indifference. I shall leave others to make these points in detail and will concentrate my own contribution to the debate on leading your Lordships through the Bill, starting with some very general considerations which we ought, all of us, to have in mind.
Legislation ought never to be conceived in a vindictive spirit. It is not an opportunity to get even with people who do not share our views. A law is not good in proportion to the number of convictions it secures but, rather, in the degree of law-abidingness and co-operation which it promotes. Almost all the ethical considerations inspiring animal welfare are situational ones involving acts of judgment. If a man's judgment leads him in unacceptable directions, that may be a good reason for correcting it or restraining it, but not for treating the individual at fault as a criminal to be imprisoned with murderers, thieves, prostitutes and others. For that reason, this Bill does not constitute a new branch of criminal law.
To give effect to this spirit, I have endeavoured to structure the Bill so as to strike as nice a balance as I can between what is done directly by statute, explicitly in the Bill, what is done indirectly by subordinate legislation and the machinery of regulations based upon statutory instruments and what is to be done by incentives to conform with an official code of good conduct which Clause 8 of the Bill requires the Home Secretary to publish under the title A Guide to Good Laboratory Animal Practice.

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The Bill is evolutionary, not revolutionary, in scope. It builds on the present Act, incorporates those recommendations of the Littlewood Report needing legislation—now, as I have said, over 15 years out of date—and seals off some grey areas which have inevitably developed since 1876, the date of the present Act. I should perhaps remind your Lordships that the whole—I repeat the whole—of immunology, hormone-based therapy, vitamin-based dietetics, chemotherapy, antibiotics, anthelmintics—modern medicine, in fact—has been developed since the present Act came into force, and that the consumer protection movement of recent years has added many animals to the list of those that are required every year.
In terms of modern biomedical technology, the relation between our exploitation of animals, in the general sense, in the laboratory and any reasonable definition of the word "experimental" is tenuous and very difficult to draw. The Bill is therefore based upon the more comprehensive term "procedure", the effect of which is to bring a rather wider range of animals under the protection which the Bill provides than is the case at present. This is reflected in its short title, "The Laboratory Animals Protection Bill."
To qualify for protection under the Bill, an animal has to have two conditions fulfilled. First, it must be the subject of a procedure which, in the absence of an anaesthetic or other means of pain relief, could be expected to cause distress, pain, ill-health—those three. Whether or not an anaesthetic is actually employed is irrelevant to the determination of whether an animal is a protected animal but, if a protected animal, it is entitled to the same degree of pain relief as would be the case if the procedure were carried out in the course of ordinary veterinary care and therapy.
Secondly, the procedure must have certain stated objectives which are listed in the Bill, and I shall come to them later. These do not include slaughter for food, shearing for wool or the production of milk or other dairy products—eggs and so on. These contexts are the province of other statutes. The ringing of birds and the implantation of radio-locatable bugs in wild animals in order
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to follow their movements for the purposes of field natural history and observations are excluded from the Bill.
This brings me to Clause 1 which provides that any procedure carried out on a protected animal is an offence, unless it falls within the restrictions imposed by the Act. This is the basis of the whole Bill, the rest of which is concerned with the power of the Home Secretary to control and relax this overall embargo in cases enfranchised by the Bill. Throughout the Bill the Home Secretary is made the keeper of our consciences in the context of animal experimentation. He is to be our watchdog. May I remind your Lordships of an old, homely proverb:
"Do not keep a dog and bark yourself".
The Bill does not tell the Home Secretary what to embargo. It contains no specific prohibition on particular experiments or procedures. Cosmetics are not picked out for special mention. There is no prohibition on inducing smoking habits in dogs. It will be up to the Home Secretary of the day, as it is now, to single them out and prohibit them if he thinks the circumstances warrant. The only constraint on him is that of public opinion, as expressed in Parliament.
This brings me to Clause 2 where the restrictions begin to be relaxed, under control. It is a long clause and one of the key clauses in the Bill. It lays down the need for a licence in respect of the person by whom and the place at which a procedure bringing an animal under the protection of the Act is carried out. In addition, it lays down the purposes of the procedures which may be licensed and requires a veterinary degree of pain relief. It also covers the special cases where procedures are carried out as demonstrations for teaching purposes. It protects the offspring of pregnant animals. It requires the painless killing of animals in pain. It embargoes the use of curare and curaro-mimetic drugs as an anaesthetic and requires all animals to be treated with compassion.
I will skip two clauses in order to come to the system of licensing persons and premises, taking them in that order. Clause 6 requires a licence application to be sponsored, but the system is quite different from sponsorship under the present Act, which is in the hands of very distinguished presidents of learned societies

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and colleges. Everyone knows that these distinguished persons are swamped by applications from strangers, of whom they know very little and who may be working in specialised fields, of which they know no more. The late Lord Platt used to tell your Lordships on many occasions what he thought of the bogus character of the protection which this system provided under certificates which he signed, more or less blind.
The Bill replaces the old system by a system of double certification. There must be two sponsors to every licence application. The first must sponsor the applicant personally, must know him and must state that he has the requisite qualifications to carry out procedures on animals. The second must be a recognised expert in the field of the proposed procedures, who must certify that they fall within the purposes enfranchised by the Bill and that there is no reasonable alternative to the use of animals for that purpose.
This removes from the limited number of inspectors the invidious task which would he imposed upon them if they were to be responsible for monitoring a virtually unlimited number of fields, from the standpoint of determining whether there was an alternative to the use of animals in those fields. The experts requisite for this category will be listed at the Home Office on the recommendation of the presidents of the learned societies and colleges. So these distinguished persons will continue to play a part in the system, but it will be the right part for them to play, and a real one.
If the licensee changes course or enlarges the scope of his work, then the licence will need to be amended correspondingly, so that it will come to appear over the course of a career rather like a passport with visas. This being so, the special certificates requisite under the present Act will cease to serve any useful purpose and they are dropped accordingly. The protection they gave to horses, dogs, cats and other domesticated animals and pets was largely spurious since the same authority issued them all. What they did was to ensure that the Home Office knew that these animals were either being used or that their use was in contemplation. But this will be automatic and a routine
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matter under the present Bill, where there will be no "blank cheques". Therefore they can be taken for granted and the system of alphabetically labelled certificates dropped.
I come next to the licensing of the premises under Clause 5. At present premises are not licensed; they are simply registered to tell the inspector where he can call to carry out his inspection. By licensing, as opposed to registering, a great deal can be accomplished indirectly. The licence to an experimenter is to a single individual who conducts a single procedure. The licence of the premises can be to the chief executive of an industrial organisation or to the vice-chancellor of a university or anybody representative of the owner of the premises where many experimenters may be carrying out their work in parallel. The occasion of granting this licence can be the opportunity to draw his attention to the guide and to express the hope that its provisions will be treated as practices to be aimed at on the premises. This will put everyone's work at hazard if anyone on the premises disregards the guide's provisions and risks the chief executive's or vice-chancellor's loss of the licence by revocation if representations from the inspectors go unheeded. Thus the vice-chancellor or chief executive and everybody on the premises will be in league to see that the provisions of the guide are kept on the premises. Thus in my view men should be governed, naturally and without effort, by providing them with incentives to the good behaviour which one wants them to exhibit.
The three clauses which I have recited, Nos. 2, 5 and 6, form the heart of the Bill. In order to present them sequentially, I skipped Clauses 3 and 4. Clause 3 carries the species protected to Schedule 1, which I shall deal with later, and Clause 4 repeats the embargo in the present Act against public exhibitions. Clause 7 is an enabling clause by means of which the Minister can make regulations which a later clause specifies as by statutory instrument. Clause 8 is the one requiring the publication of the guide to good laboratory animal practice. It is not, of course, in the Bill. It is the Home Secretary's responsibility to draft and circulate the guide, so the Bill does not tell him how to do his job. Clause 9

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requires licence holders to submit annual returns and of course the Home Secretary's annual report is based on those returns.
The provisions of the Bill would be ineffective without some teeth in the form of an inspectorate which is set up in Clauses 10, 11 and 12. These very largely follow the present Act but the powers of individual inspectors are significantly increased. They can order the killing of an animal which is felt to be in undue pain without regard to whether or not the purposes of an experiment have been fulfilled. So far as practice is concerned, this is somewhat of a distinction without a difference because the inspectorate possesses this power in effect now, not in virtue of what is in the 1876 Act but in virtue of powers that they take to themselves under the conditions for issuing a licence. But the public do not know this and they believe that the inspectorate has no such power. Therefore I think it desirable that it should be in the Bill.
In addition to the inspectorate, the Bill gives statutory expression to an advisory council in Clause 14 and lays down its constitution in Schedule 3. What I have in mind is a critical, collective opinion-forming body on questions which may be vexing the Home Secretary or the public or even the inspectors themselves. It is not conceived primarily as an ethical committee laying down standards of right and wrong but more as a body of advisers to whom the inspectors can turn if they, for example, do not agree about something among themselves, and to which they can refer matters on which they all of them feel unsure. They are, of course, experts. They are the normal advisers to the Minister; but even the most expert adviser sometimes finds himself in need of a commonsense lay opinion. That is how the constitution of the advisory council has been expressed.
My Lords, I have again skipped a clause to facilitate exposition. Clause 13 requires the Home Secretary to publish an annual report and Clause 15 provides for an agreed licensee to have recourse to the advisory council. I think this is important. The present Act can inflict injustice on a licensee and there is absolutely no redress or means of making representations.
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These are the principal features of the Bill to which I would draw the attention of your Lordships in this opening speech. I do not want to prolong it unduly as I am sure that I shall have my attention drawn to other features of the Bill in the course of the debate. Those I will deal with when winding up the debate. Many of the remaining clauses are formal or legalistic and what one would expect to find in an Act of this kind, and of course some are consequential on the three main clauses that I have dealt with. The "guts" of the Bill are in Clauses 2, 5 and 6 and I would recommend a study of them.
Before coming to an end, I should like to say a few words about the definitions in Clause 28. A "laboratory" is whatever premises are licensed for the conduct of licensed procedures on protected animals, so that in a veterinary or an agricultural context a meadow or a dairy could be a laboratory for the purposes of the Act. Then a "procedure" on a protected animal is defined by its purposes and it might be as well to recite these explicitly for the record. There are five of them, namely, testing a hypothesis, collecting information, testing or producing a substance, registering an effect of a substance on an animal or use for educational purposes.
The species of animals protected under the Bill are not listed in the Bill but carried into Schedule 1, to which the Minister has power of addition or deletion by regulation. In this way practice can be made to conform with what we learn over the years about life forms which might need more protection in the minds of our successors than they do in our own minds today.
So much for the Bill itself. If your Lordships approve it and approve the Motion for Second Reading, I shall then ask you to approve a second Motion committing the Bill to a Select Committee of the House. This was originally the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, and I owe the idea to him. I thought it a good one and I am happy to give him the credit for a good idea. The field is a controversial one, where conflicting feelings run high. I think it right and proper that an experimentalist who may feel that I have been too restrictive, or an animal welfare devotee who may feel that I have not gone far enough,

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should have the satisfaction of feeling that he or she has been listened to with that patience and attention which only a Select Committee can provide. It also gives the House, through its Select Committee, an opportunity to collect evidence over and above that which may be volunteered. I am quite sure that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, will enlarge on these arguments and I do not intend to say more on that matter as I believe that T can leave the rest of it in his very capable hands.
My Lords, I very much hope that the Bill will commend itself to your good favour. It has been a labour of love by a dedicated team. Men of science played a distinguished and honourable role in helping to achieve the Act of 1876, which was a more or less corporate expression of British affection for animals and a determination that the rather horrible physiological experiments which were carried out in France in the middle of the last century should not be repeated in this country. So the men of science played an honourable role in putting the Act of 1876 on the Statute Book. During the century of their co-operation with it since, they have been continually traduced and blackguarded as monsters by the militant anti-vivisectionist Press—as total a stranger to the truth as can well be imagined. I want to see them, as a member of their community, play the same honourable role today in whatever measure proves the successor to the present Act. For that reason, my Lords, as well as for the protection of laboratory animals, on the Motion that this Bill be now read a second time, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Halsbury.)

NORTHERN IRELAND: GOVERNMENT
3.41 p.m.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Elton): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows:
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"Mr. Speaker, I will, with permission, make a Statement about the government of Northern Ireland.
"The Queen's Speech declared the Government's intention, to seek an acceptable way of restoring to the people of Northern Ireland more control over their own affairs '.
"Since taking office in May, I have, for this purpose, had wide-ranging discussions in the Province, and a series of private meetings with leaders of the main Northern Ireland political parties represented in this House.
"My discussions and meetings have confirmed the Government's view that it is right to transfer back to locally elected representatives some at least of the powers of government at present exercised from Westminster.
"The political parties in Northern Ireland themselves, in their election manifestoes, asked for this, and there is widespread support for it in the Province.
"There is, moreover, awareness that such a restoration of political responsibility can only be brought about in Northern Ireland by all parts of the community recognising and respecting the interests of others.
"It will in due course be a matter for Parliament to decide, on proposals put to it by Her Majesty's Government, what kind of powers and responsibilities are to be transferred to elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland and through what kind of institutions they are to be exercised.
"The Government wish, however, to put forward proposals which, so far as possible, have the agreement of the people of Northern Ireland.
"We intend therefore to convene a conference of the principal political parties in Northern Ireland to seek the highest level of agreement that we can on proposals for a transfer of responsibility which the Government might put before this House in due course.
"We are, for this purpose, preparing a consultative document, which will be laid before Parliament, to serve as the basis of the conference.

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"The document will set out the range of powers and responsibilities which the Government for their part would be prepared to see transferred from Westminster.
"The document will set out as options for consideration by the conference a number of ways in which the transferred powers might be exercised; and in each case with what Her Majesty's Government would regard as reasonable and appropriate arrangements to take account of the interests of the minority.
"Responsibility for law and order in the Province, which—as I indicated in reply to Questions earlier today—remains the Government's overriding priority in Northern Ireland, would not be transferred.
"I shall shortly be approaching the party leaders concerned to discuss with them the arrangements for a conference to be convened as soon as possible and, I would hope, by the end of November.
"Our aim will be to secure from the conference, drawing on suggestions in the consultative document, workable and acceptable arrangements for restoring to the people of Northern Ireland greater responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs which we can then recommend to this House in fulfilment of our commitment in The Queen's Speech".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
3.45 p.m.
Lord BLEASE: My Lords, I wish to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement to this House. I have received a copy of it within the last few minutes. As this is the first occasion since the Summer Recess on which there has been an opportunity to mention Northern Ireland affairs in this House, I feel sure that all noble Lords will wish to join with me in expressing our deep shock and grief at the tragic murder of Lord Mountbatten. Also I have great concern about the continuing senseless and vicious campaign of violence being perpetrated against the Irish people both North and South. Our heartfelt sympathy is with the
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families of all the security forces and of all innocent victims, civilians, who have suffered much during these recent months through murder, maiming and malice.
I wish also to say that, along with noble Lords in this House and with Members in another place who realise in practical terms the problems of civilised living in Northern Ireland, we acknowledge the tremendous difficulties that confront the Northern Ireland Secretary of State and his Ministers in obtaining peace, justice and progress in Northern Ireland. The Statement today proposes further discussions and consultations by the Northern Ireland Secretary of State with the main representatives of political parties in Northern Ireland in the form of a conference.
In offering my support for these efforts, which I hope will be fundamentally based on democratic political persuasion, I would add some words of caution. I should like the Minister to indicate what hopes the Northern Ireland Secretary of State has at present, after having carried out a series of consultations with the representatives of political parties, that there will be agreement by the political parties in Northern Ireland to participate in this constitutional conference. If one or more of the parties boycott the conference, what will be the arrangements for the decisions that the Government and Parliament will have to take by way of option?
I note and welcome the fact that the text and terms of the consultative document will be generally released in another place and in this House and I would suggest that such a document ought to be widely available to the public. I say that because, from knowledge and experience of other similar conferences and assemblies held in Northern Ireland over the years, if this is not done there will be a series of leaks and ugly forms of speculation which can only harm such discussions. A further point I should like to suggest is that perhaps a record of the progress of the consultations may be made regularly so that the general public may in some way voice their opinions on the progress of the discussions.
I feel that I would be failing in my responsibility to the Northern Ireland people and to this House, if not to my own conscience, if I did not mention the

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great concern and frustration in Northern Ireland about approaches to security matters during these past five months. Whatever may be the particular need for measures to uphold law and order, I certainly welcome the point set out in the Statement which says that,
"Responsibility for law and order in the Province, which—as I indicated in reply to Questions earlier today—remains the Government's overriding priority in Northern Ireland, would not be transferred.".
I welcome that at this time in the affairs of Northern Ireland, whatever subsequent events may lead to; that is a very important principle which has my full support.
A further point that I feel I should like to stress is that while the Government must give full recognition to the elected representatives of Northern Ireland—and I stand by that wholeheartedly—I believe that in the present Northern Ireland situation efforts should be made to strengthen the pluralistic aspects of responsibility and influence in our society. Therefore, I would again suggest that the consultations and discussions would benefit by involving representatives of the business community, trade union representatives, the churches, educational and other professional bodies. Finally, my Lords, I would hope that these discussions and consultations will take place in an atmosphere of constitutional conference. I believe that it is vital that issues concerning social and economic matters should also be included. Homes, jobs and educational opportunity are closely linked with peace, progress and constitutional matters in Northern Ireland. So I thank the Minister for the Statement that he has made to the House and look forward to receiving progress reports from time to time.
3.50 p.m.
Lord HAMPTON: My Lords, we too would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for repeating the Statement. We accept that unfortunately there is no magic solution to the problems of the Province and that the Secretary of State has needed time for consultation and discussion with the various parties over there. We now look forward to studying the consultative document planned to serve as the basis of a conference and certainly would not question its stated aim,
"to seek the highest level of agreement".
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The great problem which, of course, remains is how to get all parts of the community to recognise and respect the interests of others. None the less, we hope wholeheartedly that good may come from this endeavour, fully accepting that responsibility for law and order should not be transferred at this stage.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, and to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, for their reception of this Statement which marks the opening of a new and critical phase in the future of the Province. I am grateful also to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, for recording his sympathy, which all of us share, with the family of the late Lord Mountbatten. I shall not dilate upon that great gentleman in this place now, but we all know what we think of him.
The noble Lord, Lord Blease, recognised the difficulties which face us and we welcome his support. He asked me a number of specific questions, the first of which was: What would we do if one or more of the parties would not come to the conference? In our view that would be a most regrettable development and I trust that it will not happen. Both Parliament and the people of Northern Ireland would not understand why any party should not attend when less than six months ago they had all fought the election on the basis that they wanted to make progress. The noble Lord went on to ask what would happen if the conference were to fail. I do not believe in anticipating failure, but if it were to fail to reach agreement, the Government would put forward what they judged to be the best proposals for making progress in the light of the views that were expressed in the conference.
The noble Lord asked whether there would be a freely available record of the consultations. I believe that it will be best for this relatively small gathering to meet in private, although the members thereof may release as they wish what has proceeded there. On the question of security and whether that will hamper the proceedings of the conference, I think that it is only necessary to emphasise that it would be playing into the hands of the terrorists to accept that every further outrage they commit constitutes a veto on further progress, and that is what that would be.

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The noble Lord also suggested that we might ask the conference to look at matters wider than constitutional. The people concerned will be completely aware of these matters and I do not doubt that they will raise such matters as they see fit. The consultative document will not preclude members from introducing ideas of their own.
Lord PLANT: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with what my noble friend Lord Blease has said. I speak as chairman of the Human Rights Commission of Northern Ireland. I am circumscribed in making a statement here and I must put it as a series of questions. First, would the Minister agree that it is only the people of Northern Ireland who can put their own house in order and that by and large the great majority would welcome the Statement that he has made? Secondly, I recently attended the memorial service at Aldershot for the 18 soldiers murdered at Warren Point. Is the Minister aware that there is a memorial book in the chapel at Aldershot with the names of 300 soldiers who have laid down their lives in Northern Ireland?
My third question concerns the time-scale. The Minister has said that by November these discussions would be taking place. Can he inform the House of the time-scale envisaged after the initial discussions?
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Plant, that it is only the citizens of the Province who can put their own house in order. It is the duty of the Government to try to bring about the circumstances under which they are able so to do and to provide the encouragement for those who may be reluctant to make the attempt. It will be a function of public opinion in this country—by which I mean the whole of the United Kingdom—to make it apparent to any who are reluctant to look and listen and speak rather than to shout, that this is something which the people will not tolerate.
I too have seen with proper humility the memorial to which the noble Lord referred and with real sorrow I see that it grows longer every week.
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As regards the timing, I very much hope that we shall have something concrete to proceed on by the end of this year.
Lord DERWENT: My Lords, I should like to raise one point with my noble friend. Did I understand him correctly to say that there was no chance of the public being kept fully informed during the discussions? If that is so I think it is most regrettable.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, subject to advice, my understanding is that there will not be published a Hansard account, as it were; on the other hand it is not human nature for there to be a revelation, after three weeks of silence, of a conclusion reached. It is possible that different interpretations may be put on the proceedings by different participants. However, we shall have to see how we go and grow wise with experience.
The Duke of NORFOLK: My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the Government of Southern Ireland have been consulted about this matter and will steps be taken to keep them informed as the conference progresses? I am one of the many people who believe that the secret of this dreary and terrible subject lies much more with keeping the Government of Southern Ireland informed and in trying to bring them along with us.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I am aware of the dimension which the noble Duke has introduced. This is a United Kingdom matter, but of course the Government of the Republic are concerned; of course they will be kept aware of what is going on and I trust that their interest will be sympathetic.

LABORATORY ANIMALS PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
3.58 p.m.
Second Reading debate resumed.
Earl GREY: My Lords, first may I apologise to the House for not being able to stay until the end of the Second Reading debate on this most important Bill. Unfortunately, I have a prior engagement which is unavoidable. My Lords, I welcome this Second Reading

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debate and also the setting up of a Select Committee which will be able to assess more fully the facts regarding cruelty to and unnecessary treatment of animals. The subject of laboratory testing evokes automatically strong emotional feelings—those for the continuance of and those opposed to the practice. I admit that I find it difficult to be objective without being biased.
Having read the Bill, I am not happy with some of the clauses contained in it, especially the ones dealing with pain and suffering. I do not think that it goes far enough towards ensuring the welfare and safety of animals, but I for one would rather be informed and convinced more fully before making a final decision. One reads of frightening cases of treatment and experiments. I do not know whether those accusations are justified, but, surely, in order to obtain the truth, could not the veil of secrecy which seems to exist be lifted and more facts be allowed to be published?
One solution could be the appointment of more inspectors. I believe that they number only 14, and that the number of experiments amount to a few million. I would approve that extra fully-qualified inspectors—and possibly some could be recruited from various animal welfare groups—should be given more powers. I believe that those inspectors should have the right of entry to any laboratory without having first to apply for permission to inspect. I cannot see any objection to that if all experiments are being carried out lawfully and there is nothing to hide.
I, for one, cannot condone the testing of tobacco on animals to find out which strains are harmful to humans. There must be any number of humans willing to smoke themselves to death, given the offer of free tobacco. Let them be the guinea-pigs. I also fail to see the justification in the experimentation of cosmetics in order to make women more attractive to men. There are enough products on the market for that already. If experiments are to continue, which will be the case, I think that the criteria should be purely on medical grounds. I shall follow closely the progress of this Bill, or any similar Bill, with a great deal of interest and concern. Finally, I look forward with interest to listening to the
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maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, who I understand is well qualified to speak on this very important subject.
4.1 p.m.
Lord ADRIAN: My Lords, I speak for the first time in your Lordships' House with a good deal of apprehension. I know that maiden speeches should be non-controversial and I know that the subject of today's debate gives rise to strong feelings. If what I say does likewise, I apologise in advance; I do not mean it to. I shall need all your Lordships' traditional kindness. At the outset I must make it clear that I hold a licence under the 1876 legislation to carry out animal experiments. I am a physiologist and I teach medical students. Being also a university don, I am forewarned, having read a most helpful article by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, that your Lordships have no taste for lectures. I shall do my best not to fall into that, for me, very familiar mode of address.
Your Lordships will understand that I am one of those who hold the view that animal experiments can be justified, and indeed that they are necessary. They seem to me to be justified by the knowledge that they produce and, more importantly, by the benefits which stem from that knowledge; by the reduction of disease and the increase of the health of mankind and animals. I believe that the human and animal suffering which would be caused by denying ourselves the benefits of experiment would far outweigh the suffering caused by experiment.
As a physiologist with a medical training, I can see clearly how far the advances of medicine have depended on animal experiments. I do not doubt that there are in your Lordships' House several, and in the world at large millions, whose very lives depend on animal work on diabetes. The production, testing and standardisation of insulin has traditionally used animals. Now, however, we can look forward to the production of insulin by genetic engineering and to its standardisation by "alternative" methods.
The use of these "alternative" methods, as and when they become sufficiently developed and reliable, is very much to be welcomed; and I believe that their use

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is increasing. Ten years ago people thought that the numbers of animal experiments would continue to rise inexorably year by year. Instead the Home Office statistics show that since 1970 the annual total has, in fact, declined slightly. We may acknowledge the part that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, and many others have played in this very welcome development.
I have said that I believe using animals in testing and experimental work is justifiable, but that is not to say that I think that all experiments or tests are justified. I do not advocate uncontrolled animal experiment—rather it should be done only under informed and responsible control; control of the kind that I believe has been exercised in this country for the last 100 years. But if we are to maximise the benefit and minimise the animal suffering, that control must be well-informed. This is indeed recognised in the composition of the proposed advisory committee, but it seems to me so important that I should like to see the role of that committee strengthened.
The advisory committee should be active in offering the Secretary of State and the Inspectorate advice on all aspects, scientific as well as ethical, of animal experiment, and their counsels should surely take into account the best available medical, veterinary and scientific knowledge. I should like to see the clinical and scientific members of the committee appointed from nominations by the Royal Colleges, the Royal Society, and relevant learned societies. I would also hope that in matters of appeal under Clause 15 the advisory committee's advice would normally be heeded. The importance of control, and indeed of self-control, is part of the outlook of biological scientists in this country who are jealous of their good reputation for animal care. I know that it is held that, because of lack of testing in the courts, the 1876 Cruelty to Animals Act is widely neglected. I can only say that in my own experience my colleagues take the provisions of that Act very seriously indeed and listen closely and with respect to the very knowledgeable advice of the Inspectorate; and that this attitude of willing co-operation extends to our professional associations.
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The Bill which your Lordships are considering today preserves a great deal that is well-tried in the 1876 legislation. But biological science has made very great progress in the last 100 years and it is hardly surprising that the 1876 legislation needs bringing up-to-date. The Bill of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, does just that—it implements many of the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee. The concept of experiment is replaced by the much wider one of procedure. The scope of control is extended. Sponsoring for licence applications is made less automatic and will demand that the sponsors know more about what and who is being sponsored. All this greatly improves the present position, and does much of what critics of the 1876 Act have demanded. But it must be admitted that the present position is not altogether bad— in fact, the existing Act, for all its detractors, works well. There seems to me to be some force in the argument that our efforts should be concentrated on achieving a satisfactory agreement in the ad hoc Committee of the Council of Europe for the Protection of Animals, and for delaying changes in our legislation until that agreement has been accepted.
But, on balance, I think that we have waited long enough. At the same time I should be sorry indeed if controversy over this Bill and over one which may reach us from another place should interfere with our efforts to influence what is yet to be agreed in Europe. Finally, I do not think that human beings will very readily give up using animals, for food, for work, for knowledge, for safety, even for sport. Individuals differ widely in what they themselves will do. But society has to set limits on all these activities and fiercely argues about where those limits should be. To set those limits in experimental science in the last 100 years this country has relied on a combination of legislation and the personal responsibility of scientists. On the whole, it has worked well. It has offered protection to animals and, be it admitted, to scientists also, as was the intention of the original legislation. The Bill before your Lordships' House builds on and develops that very well-tried approach. I shall support its Second Reading and, if it be so moved, its reference to a Select Committee.
4.9 p.m.
Lord HUNT of FAWLEY: My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will agree with me when I thank the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, for his splendid maiden speech. He is the distinguished physiologist son of a distinguished physiologist father whom many of us knew. Like his father, he has been elected a Fellow of the Royal Society. His father was awarded the Order of Merit and was a Nobel Prize winner in medicine. We hope that our new friend will follow this splendid example and rise to those heights, and that he will speak to us often. We are proud and privileged to have him with us in our House. We thank him once again for his speech. It was, as it should have been, non-controversial. When I had been in your Lordships' House for four months the Chief Whip came to me and said, "It is time you made your maiden speech". I said, "What on?" He said, "Any non-controversial subject". I said, "What do you suggest?" And he said, "What about pay beds in National Health Service hospitals!" I had difficulty in making that really non-controversial.
May I return to the subject of our debate this afternoon—the Laboratory Animals Protection Bill. Many years ago when I was on the junior staff of the Medical Professorial Unit of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, I took out an animal-experiment licence with a grant from the Medical Research Council to investigate a possible connection between the pituitary gland and gastric ulcers. This involved working with rabbits which I had bred myself in my parents' garden in Surrey. As you know these animals multiply quickly. With the help of my family and others looking after them we soon had a considerable number. We became quite fond of some of them and we got to know them by name. When mature they were brought up to London, to the Dunn Laboratory at Barts. While there I remember, well, being concerned about their welfare. We did our best to be kind to them but I thought, then, that more regulations were needed to supervise and control experiments on animals.
This Bill introduced to your Lordships' today by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, sets out clearly possible lines along which such protective legislation, regulations,
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official advice, embargoes, codes of conduct and licensing (not only for the experimenter himself but also for the premises in which he works) could and should now be developed to alleviate as much as possible the ill-health, distress, discomfort or pain experimental animals may suffer. But, as the noble Earl has himself suggested, and as the RSPCA and others have pointed out to me, his Bill still needs amendments; first, perhaps, by a Select Committee and then by a Committee of the Whole House.
Modern medicine and millions of people owe an enormous debt to those who have observed animals under controlled conditions, or who have carried out carefully-planned tests, trials or experiments upon them. These scientists have played a large part in the prevention and treatment of a great number of very serious diseases ranging from diphtheria and tuberculosis to poliomyelitis and bubonic plague. At present we cannot do without these animal experiments, because the alternative methods of assessment, which are steadily being developed, are not yet good enough in all contexts.
Members of the public and their lawyers are becoming more insistent on adequate protection and safety in almost every aspect of modern life. The number of animal experiments is, we are told, increasing because of the eight or more workers' or consumers' protection Acts which have been put on the statute book during the past 25 years. And more and more work is being done in trying to find an answer to our many vital medical problems. It might be thought that a Bill like this, with its stricter licensing and tighter controls, would tend to impede or perhaps even reduce medical research. I believe that the opposite is the case; it should lead to more and improved scientific trials and experiments under better conditions for the animals concerned.
In some subjects more should have been done in the past. Last year my wife and I travelled to Salzburg by air, with about 20 "thalidomide" teenagers on a holiday jaunt, some of them with arms and legs only a few inches long. A more cheerful bunch of youngsters I have seldom seen; but during lunch one could not help wondering, as have many others, how much human anxiety and suffering

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might have been avoided had more adequate animal experiments been possible before thalidomide had been put on the market. They were attempted, we all know, but did not prove sufficient.
There are some people who think that this Bill is quite unnecessary because they believe all experiments involving animals should be banned. To them I would reply by paraphrasing what I said to your Lordships on 22nd February 1977: If there is the slightest chance of a new food additive, drug, antibiotic, hormone, vaccine, insecticide, or even a new cosmetic preparation such as a hair dye, making someone ill, perhaps even causing cancer or some other very unpleasant or fatal disease, would these people really prefer that the first sign of such an illness should appear in a son or daughter, mother or father, wife or husband rather than in a rabbit, guinea pig, mouse or rat? I think we all know well enough, in our hearts, how the majority of people would answer that question. Therefore, my Lords, as a doctor and on behalf of most of my patients and their loved ones, I beg you to give this Bill a Second Reading.
4.17 p.m.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I find it extremely difficult as a layman to express adequately the admiration I have for those noble Lords who have spoken already, particularly the professional ones who understand this subject inside out. I ask your Lordships' forgiveness for intervening for a few moments as a layman. I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for having given us the opportunity of speaking and of hearing him on this subject. Most people are deeply concerned about how animals are treated, but I think that very few, if any, would deny that it is important in some way, and perhaps in many ways, for experiments to continue.
The importance of this Bill arises from the fact that an attempt is being made to deal with a subject in a reasonable and proper manner. I should also like to say, particularly to the maiden speaker, Lord Adrian, that of course anybody who has any knowledge of anything at all knows what a valuable service his father and he have rendered to humanity, and today
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he has exhibited it in his speech. There is not very much need to speak about its excellence because we all expected it, and we look forward with considerable pleasure to hear from him very often and again shortly. That is why I confine myself to a portion of the Bill that I consider to be of considerable importance, and which I hope your Lordships will agree is of considerable importance.
I agree with the views already expressed, that we in Britain are outstanding in the manner in which protective legislation to animals has been used, and I think particularly in the last 100 years to Europe as a whole. We in Britain have had a proud tradition for more than 100 years of the strongest legislation in Europe in this respect. I am concerned of course for the well-being of animals, as are such vast numbers of our fellow men, and I commend the Bill as being a step in the right direction; namely, that of bringing legislation concerning the protection of laboratory animals up to date. Many of your Lordships who have much deeper knowledge and experience of this subject than I have, have given, and will be giving, the benefit of their views, and those views will be listened to with interested attention by the House. I therefore propose to deal briefly with one aspect of the Bill which I consider to be of considerable importance; namely, the provisions of Clause 8.
All of us will agree that every method should be sought to carry out tests humanely, on any kind of animal, and that just as important is the need to try to minimise the need for, and the number of, animal experiments that are required in any particular circumstance. Clause 8 requires the Secretary of State to publish a guide for good laboratory practice and advice on alternatives to experimental animals. The concept of alternatives is not new, as we have heard, but the questions that present themselves are: What alternatives are suitable? And, are they valid?
I wish to quote, as an example of the importance of research, the recommendations of scientists known to me who have studied the subject extensively and whose work in SCIP I admire. One of the alternatives to the use of animals which they propose, and with which after long deliberation they consider to be suitable

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for testing certain chemicals in medicines and food additives, is an easily available human tissue, the placenta or afterbirth. They state that when a substance is being tested for safe use in man, the best alternative to animals is man himself. Since it is not technically possible to carry out many tests on man, the best alternative is to use a human tissue, and in the placenta there is just such a tissue.
Clearly this does not replace all experiments on animals, but it has been pointed out to me that some experiments which take place using animals perhaps use more animals than would otherwise be the case in order to arrive at certain conclusions which may fail. However, I am talking now about something which does not mean that at all; in some instances experiments with the placenta can be better than tests using animals.
The report of the work of these scientists has just appeared in a publication entitled Placenta—A Neglected Experimental Animal, by Dr. Peter Beaconsfield, MD, PhD, and the director of SCIP, a research organisation with which I have worked and in which I have been interested for a considerable time, the Research Unit of Bedford College, University of London, the Visiting Professor of the City University, and Dr. Claude Villiee, PhD, the director of the Laboratory of Human Reproduction at Harvard Medical School, Boston, in the United States.
In this volume a number of articles and discussions between members of the group are collected. These people are experts whose knowledge is very wide-ranging and world renowned, and all of them are qualified to express their opinions on the satisfactory use of alternatives to animals in research. According to them the placenta, being human tissue, is infinitely more suitable a testing material to assess the accuracy of certain reactions than many animals currently in use, for the simple reason that it is human tissue. The foreword to the book has been written by one of the group, the Swedish Nobel Prize-winner, Professor Hugo Theorell, and I quote from his opening remarks:
"The quest for a suitable model on which to base human medical research is as long as the history of medicine itself. Only time will show how important a milestone on this journey the placenta may prove to be. As yet, it has been neglected … somewhat surprisingly, when we consider how much effort has been applied to
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seemingly less satisfactory and less freely available alternatives. The placenta's remarkably complete spectrum of cellular and biochemical activity, as well as its hormonal and endrocrinological roles and its short life-cycle, adds to its suitability for studying the processes of cell replication, immune mechanisms … and perhaps ageing."
This second quotation amplifies the first:
"Although only one of many possible research models, the human placenta offers many advantages. It consists of human tissue, it is readily available and it possesses the unique properties of differentiating and growing from embryonal tissue to maturity and … senescence in only nine months."
On the subject of drug testing, for example, Dr. Beaconsfield comments:
"As the placenta is a rapidly growing tissue, it is a good testing ground for compounds which are being developed to slow down growth and interfere with certain aspects of metabolism."
Dr. Beaconsfield also comments:
"The validity of the placenta as an experimental animal is fully upheld … it can be kept alive and intact … and many processes can be studied on it."
I hope your Lordships will forgive me for quoting so fully, but to me, as a layman, it seems strange that this subject, which is considered very fully in the publication to which I referred, appears to have escaped the notice of the Home Office and those who should have been deeply concerned with this subject. I believe that this Bill, and in particular the clause to which I referred, will make it compulsory for the authorities to see that every incentive possible is given to those who are taking part in research work of this description.
4.30 p.m.
Baroness HYLTON-FOSTER: My Lords, I should like to open my speech by adding my congratulations to those already extended to the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, upon his most thoughtful and informative speech, and I hope that it is but the forerunner of many more to come. I welcome the Bill for three reasons. The first is that I am connected with, and interested in, research into migraine, as well as blindness. Secondly, I believe that the Bill should curb the experiments done by irresponsible people. My third reason can be expressed in the words of Professor Hutt, Counsellor for Research, and Director of the Max Rayne Institute across the water at St. Thomas' Hospital. Professor Hutt hopes that the Bill will help to demonstrate to the general public that research workers, who are often denigrated by prejudiced groups, are

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responsible people who really care about welfare of the animals they use and now accept the need for restrictive legislation. The professor also points out that the great majority of animal experiments carried out in this country, particularly in the medical and veterinary field, really are necessary if we are to develop new techniques for the prevention and treatment of disease and therefore of suffering by mankind and by animals.
In a Stephen Paget Memorial lecture in 1978 Professor Paton of Oxford University pointed out that scientists had been represented as pursuing wanton curiosity or lacking in social responsibility. So he drew attention to the many forms of animal suffering, such as dying from disease and being killed for food. He also referred to the unwanted dogs and cats which are destroyed each year if they are lucky, and are not otherwise starved to death or dumped on a motorway. Yet only one animal experiment which leads to a future reduction of suffering is the one that is most bitterly attacked. It is not always understood that the use of animals in medical research is for the benefit of both human and veterinary medicine.
I must join with other noble Lords in thanking the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for his brilliant and most comprehensive speech and for introducing the Bill. I must tell him that the director of the Max Rayne Institute says that he and his team could find in the Bill no point of principle to which they could take exception, but they would like attention drawn to three clauses. With regard to Clause 7 they suggest that all breeders of laboratory animals should be inspected regularly for standards and disease control. In relation to Clause 8 they suggest that all licensees should receive a code of conduct and regulations with reference to animals used within the institutes. Clause 14 deals with the advisory committee, and the director and his team recommend that there should be more than one representative for the industries listed under sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 1 of Schedule 3, and they would strongly press for the inclusion of an experienced chief animal superintendent (technologist) on the committee.
Would the noble Earl agree with these three points, and if he does, would he draw them to the attention of the Select
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Committee if the Bill is committed? Finally, would the Government agree that the enforcement of higher standards will inevitably lead to higher costs which in these days of financial stringency many universities and medical research institutes will not be able to meet? Therefore this will mean a reduction in medical research of the very best type. I should be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, would indicate whether the Government would give sympathetic consideration to this problem.
4.34 p.m.
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, I will occupy your Lordships' time only very briefly. I want to underline, if I may, one point. Before I do so may I join in the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, upon his magnificent maiden speech today. Inevitably he reminded me of the gentle, extraordinarily able man who was my director of studies some 55 years ago—Lord Adrian. We welcome the noble Lord; we enjoyed his speech greatly.
In connection with the Bill I want to underline the significance—to which the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, referred in his opening speech—in the change from the word "experiment" to the word "procedure". It really is a significant change that there will be brought within the strengthened control, which other provisions of the Bill will secure, any procedure which in the absence of relief would cause distress, pain, or ill-health—and that is whether experimental or not. Those actions are brought within the ambit of this strengthened control, whereas today many of them not involving experiment are not within the ambit of the existing Act.
This point is of immense importance, and I emphasise it for the following reason. Some of your Lordships may have listened to the seven o'clock news this morming and a contribution that followed from a spokesman for the antivivisection people, who described the Bill as a "whitewash". I think that this must be answered now. Is it a whitewash, first, to strengthen the control over experimental work (the existing arena) and to extend that control to cover this extensive and growing world of action—not experiment— concerned with vaccines,

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biological products, testing, and insulin, which is of course likely to be much more used as the consumer protection movement grows? Is it whitewash to do those two things? Whereas one can understand those people who, for sentimental or other reasons, would deny other people the great benefits of animal experimentation, nevertheless they have no right to describe as a whitewash a Bill that does a very important thing in bringing the law up to date by substituting the word "experiment" with the word "procedure".
If the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, is to be thanked for anything—and he is to be thanked considerably for the amount of work he has put into the Bill—it is for proposing that change of terminology which means so much protection to many more animals, and which is a very real advance, particularly because at the same time the control is strengthened so as to be even more effective than it is at present.
4.38 p.m.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, first, may I say how grateful I am to have been able to listen to the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, with his vast experience and knowledge. Secondly, I want to thank the noble Earl for bringing the Bill before this Chamber. It is time that a Government, whatever their political colour, took the responsibility rather than leave it to the enterprise of Members from either side of this House or of the other place to try to put the situation in order regarding protection of animals in laboratories.
I have to declare a little interest here. I have over the years been linked with the work of the pharmaceutical laboratories and I have watched pathologists at work. Consider the situation if one is trying to sell the result of work of such men as the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, and his noble father, and others overseas who may be seeking a licence to sell a drug in Japan, perhaps through the FDA—the Federal Drug Association. Whether the British pharmacologists, biologists or others like it or lump it there must be put forward a vast amount of evidence before the drug can be licensed in the country concerned, no matter how good the drug may be. There must be some animal
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pharmacology, there must be some work on animals. Whatever legislation this country may introduce, if we want to export the results of the brain work of our people in the fields of drugs, gastroenterology, et cetera, some work must first of all be done on animals, and if it is not done here it could be taken to other European countries where there is less concern for the safety of animals than there is in this country. Therefore, those vivisectionists who, like myself, also love animals should remember that if we push these experiments out of this country, which is famous and noteworthy throughout the world for its love of animals, they could go to parts of the world where, whatever action is done to animals, the thought of cruelty to them will be the last thing in the minds of the experimenters and results will be the first. If one looks at the distinguished men and women—and I know some of them—who have contributed to this Bill, one can only pay tribute to the hours and hours of thought and discussion which have gone into the production of it.
My Lords, when we talk about the Littlewood Committee's report, I should like to point out that in 1976 the figure was given of some 5½ million animals having been used; and I should also like those of us who are interested in the prevention of cruelty to animals not to be so anxious and self-righteous about it. To my mind, the Bramwell Committee's report on the factory farming of animals showed that that is much more cruel than the gentle work which has sometimes to be done with animals in a laboratory. Anybody who has been to a modern chicken farm, where millions of chickens are living with their necks between bits of wire, and who have seen these neurotic animals, will, I am sure, agree—and it is now moving into the realm of pig farming and calf farming. Let us stop this attitude that it is only the scientists in the laboratories who are being wantonly cruel to animals. People who speak like that know nothing about what it costs to set up, from the pathological department right through, an experiment on animals. No scientist would have the background for simple, wanton research. Anyway, all research has to have approval—and it has to have the approval of men and women in a profession which has to be trusted,

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because it has the know-how so far as we laymen are concerned. Consequently, let me say that more work has been done to try to meet some of the feelings of the Littlewood Committee as shown in their report on laboratory animals than has been done in the field of agriculture as a result of the Bramwell Report on factory farming.
I want to thank my noble friend Lord Janner. I was fascinated by his story of the placenta. We have not got the time to do it now, but perhaps at the Committee stage or at some other time some noble Lord in the field of medicine or in this field, who knows about the work which is done on this matter—there must be some noble Lord who does can—tell us whether there is any reality in it. If there is reality in it, then I say to my noble friend Lord Janner that I am quite certain the scientists and others in Britain will be among the first to recognise the truth of this statement.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I quite agree. I hope they will read the book which has been produced, which contains very full information about it, but I do not want my noble friend to think for one moment that I was in any way deprecating those who are in the scientific world.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, my noble friend missed my opening sentence. I was congratulating him. In fact, I used the words, "Thank you". My Lords, I must not speak for too long—and I have an apology to make to the House. It is not my custom to leave the Chamber if I have spoken in a debate, but I have a commitment with the Inter-Parliamentary Union. I shall stay here as long as I can, and I hope that perhaps the debate will be finished before I have to go. Let me take just another couple of minutes.
There are regulations and Acts which, whatever we may say at the present moment, imply that animals have to be used; and they require manufacturers, those of us in the pharmaceutical industry and others to let the Home Office know, and to let other authorities know, what is being done. There are the Medicines Act 1968, the Health and Safety at Work Act, the Consumer Protection Act, the
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cosmetic products regulations of 1976, and the regulations concerning the safe use of poisonous chemicals on farms. I am picking the noble Earl's brains now; he knows that. Then there are the 1978 regulations concerning approved products for farmers and growers, the proposed scheme for the notification of toxic properties in substances, the Food and Drugs Act 1955, two of the Pesticides (Safety Precautions) Schemes 1971—and so one could go on.
My Lords, I am about to sit down. We talk about Europe, and what we might do there. I do not think we have to wait for this. To cut my speech right short now, I hope that this House will approve and give a Second Reading to this Bill, so that we may have a Select Committee to give a lead and produce a piece of work which will do well for Britain and also (since this Government are interested in prosperity) for the drug industry and the research of our great medical, scientific and biological people who, for years, have given a lead to the world in the cure of diseases.
4.47 p.m.
Lord CROSS of CHELSEA: My Lords, until recently I was the chairman of the committee set up by the Home Secretary to advise him on problems arising under the 1876 Cruelty to Animals Act, so perhaps your Lordships will bear with me while I say a few words and they will be very few—on this Bill. In 1876 there were comparatively few animal experiments, and the main problem which faced the legislature 100 years ago was that of vivisection, the performance of surgical operations on unanaesthetised animals in furtherance of physiological knowlege. Today, the main problem, I think, is quite a different one. It is that created by the need to test for safety new substances—medicines, industrial chemicals, pesticides, weed killers, detergents and so on—which are constantly being devised and made available to the public. Nearly all countries—this country, the EEC countries and most developed foreign countries—have legislation which requires the use of animals to test the safety of new substances, and under that legislation, day in and day out, millions upon millions of rats and mice are being used for safety testing. The problem, of

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course, is to strike a fair balance between the safeguarding of the consumer and the limitation on the number of animals used.
My Lords, I would emphasise to your Lordships that this is not a United Kingdom problem. It is a worldwide problem; and, as the noble Earl who opened this debate emphasised, it is one in which this country, with its great experience of animal protection legislation, can lead the way—and I am sure I hope it will. But, of course, legislation in this field is something of a hot potato. There is necessarily, I think, a certain suspicion, or there has been, between, on the one hand, scientists and doctors and those predominantly concerned with the protection of the consumer, and, on the other hand, those predominantly concerned with the welfare of animals. Of course, those classes overlap; many doctors and scientists are animal lovers, and many people who are members of animal welfare organisations use medicines and detergents.
I think myself—this is the strong impression I gained in my work as chairman of the committee—that, based on a greater knowledge of the facts, there is gradually growing a greater mutual understanding on both sides than there used to be. That was borne, in on me as I heard the evidence in the inquiry the committee made into the LD50 test some months ago. But the time is undoubtedly ripe for a new Bill and thin, Bill is certainly an enormous improvement on the existing one. Speaking for myself, I should have liked to see it a Government measure. I do not think that the noble Earl will dissent from me on that. But assuming that the Government are not going to produce a Bill of their own, I would invite your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading, trusting to having it amended in certain respects in Committee.
My Lords, there are just one or two points of detail on the Bill that I would refer to. The first concerns the composition of the advisory committee which is to be built into the statute. It is not like the existing committee, which is not statutory at all. The Bill makes no express provision for the inclusion among the members of the committee of members representative of animal welfare organisations. I am not sure that that is wise. Certainly, in our deliberations on the LD50
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test we were greatly helped by having with us as an observer Mr. Jordan, a member of the Committee for the Reform of Animal Experimentation. Obviously, it would be inappropriate to put on to the committee a convinced abolitionist, a man convinced on principle of the wrongful nature of animal experimentation; and obviously such a man would not willingly serve on the committee. But I hope that the Select Committee, if this Bill goes to one, will consider the possibility of including members of animal welfare organisations on the committee.
The second matter is rather more personal. The Bill provides that the chairman of the committee should be a legally-qualified gentleman. In a general way I am all in favour of "jobs for the boys" even if the job, like this one, is unpaid; but I am not sure that it is by any means necessary that the chairman of the advisory committee should be a lawyer. I was very glad to hear that Mrs. Warnock, the Oxford philosopher, who has been a member of our committee, was prepared to take my place as chairman of it when it was a non-statutory body. That is the second point which I hope that the Committee may take into account. I commend this Bill to your Lordships.
4.53 p.m.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, I am a layman but it so happens that I have had much to do with animals used in medical research and I have taken part in a number of debates in this House over the years—to such an extent that I feel justified in adding to the congratulations which have been showered on the noble Earl on the result of his expertise and enterprise and that of his team which produced this Bill which is praised as it should be. I think, on what I have heard, that I can assume that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading and refer it to a Select Committee; but that will not be the end of it for there are plenty of problems with other Bills in the other House, problems connected with the Common Market and the like and we shall no doubt hear from the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, about other projects which are in his mind. But I do not propose to refer to any specific part of the Bill for that is a Committee matter.

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I intend to detain your Lordships for only a very short time to comment on the situation in general terms. First I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, on his maiden speech. He outlined a number of directions in which man's life is related to animals, and I should have liked to hear him add the word "companionship" in terms of animals. I have just been to the Kipling lunch and I think of his poem about "the firstest friend". He said:
"I love Binky my dog because
He is the same as the first friend was
And I am the man in the cave."
The problem has an emotional element, thanks largely to the divisive and sometimes hysterical campaigns by organisations in the anti-vivisection field whose sponsors' heart-felt sincerity must be respected although, alas! they allow their hearts to overrule their heads. The noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, brought that out in his reference to this morning's broadcast to which I shall refer again. Talking of the anti-vivisection people, with their substantial financial resources, they inevitably employ personnel whose merit in their employers' eyes rests on the stridency with which they "sing for their suppers." That is something that we must bear in mind increasingly today. It applies to trade unions but that is another matter. There are people employed to say these things.
Those of your Lordships who may have listened to Radio 4 at 7.15 this morning, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, has referred, will understand what I mean. I thought the BBC were interviewing someone on the Bill. I thought that their interviewer put up a very moderate and sensible case for the Bill in the face of the criticisms that were made and he dealt with the "anti's" strident and misleading condemnation of it. This brings me to the single point that I want to make. One result of the Bill, if it becomes law, will be to enable the Home Office to collect and publish statistics in a more generous way and in a more accessible form than at present. I cite this instance. I was in the woods the other day collecting chanterelles and wood hedgehogs—which I had not heard of but ate with relish. I took a book on fungi from my shelf and it opened at "Moulds". In the middle of the page
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was a description of Florey's original experiment, in respect of penicillin. I sent my name immediately to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, and said that I should like to speak. Your Lordships may recall that with the small pickle of penicillin that was available to Florey he inoculated 50 mice with streptococci and treated 25 of them with penicillin. Twenty-four of these survived and all the others died. No one, I think, can say that that was a waste of animal life. This, we know, is the sort of thing that happens. This experiment of his led to the saving of thousands of lives in the war and continues today into the millions.
Was the experiment necessary? I leave it to your Lordships to decide that. Was this one experiment or was it fifty? Here I am back to statistics. I think I am right in saying that at present it would be 50; but there are various other angles on this which are very interesting. Were the mice anaesthetised'? Of course not. If one turns to the Home Office publication Experiments on living animals: Statistics 1977, at page 18 one sees under the heading Rabbit, Applications of substance to the eye: 14,897 experiments. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, who congratulated the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, on pressing the use of the word "procedures" rather than "experiments" Ten animals and 10 control animals used in one test would be reported as 20 experiments. One animal used 10 times in 10 consecutive experiments which all gave negative answers would be reported as 10 experiments. On Page 18 at column 6 the returns are 14,897 experiments on rabbits used for testing the application of substances applied to the eye. This figure could relate to anything between 14,897 rabbits used once each with a positive result, and one rabbit used 14,897 times with a negative result in each case. The truth would lie somewhere between these extremes, but not in any discoverable way. This is indicative of the way in which I hope to look forward to see statistics turned out when the noble Earl's Bill is an Act and the law of the land.
This is where I cross swords with the "anti's". They know perfectly well that many of their accusations based on current figures are grossly misleading because the figures are misleading or capable of misinterpretation. If they do not, then they ought to. This Bill will go

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a long way to clear matters up. I deplore the divisive and accusatory terms in which these campaigns are waged. It was by chance only that I found myself concerned with the use of animal procedures. First, as a boy in a physiological laboratory under a well known research physiologist; and, later in my life, as chairman of a group manufacturing pharmaceutical products with our own animal laboratory. I mention this in order to refute the accusation implicit in too much of the "anti's" material, that researchers are, ipso facto, monsters of cruelty. They are not. The reverse is the case. This point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hylton-Foster. Individuals, with very few exceptions, are not callous. They respect life. Why else are they researching? Compassion and the love of animals does not reside on one side of the divide which has been created and none on the other.
Let us strive to press on with this Bill. It is far ahead of anything else that has been done. The speech of the noble and learned Lord who preceded me was most impressive on this direction. What more really can be said? Let us try to press on with it. It is far ahead of anything that has been done. It reflects the greatest benison on the noble Earl and his team. I repeat the word that he used in his own speech when talking about compassion. He referred to his work as "a labour of love by a dedicated team". So far ahead indeed is this Bill that one appreciates how wounding it must be to those who wish that they had thought of it before, or thought of it themselves. That is why I said early in my speech that there are problems ahead with various Bills in various directions. I do not think anything more meticulous or more well informed is going to emerge. The Bill is a huge step forward and I hope that the House will give it a Second Reading and commit it to a Select Committee.
5.4 p.m.
Lord DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, before I address your Lordships, I should like to offer an apology to the noble Earl for not being present when he made his speech, and to the other noble Lords whom I unfortunately did not hear because of the rather inclement weather that I encountered on my way here. Having said that, I shall not detain your Lordships unduly. It would be ill of me
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to make comments on this Bill, not having heard what other noble Lords have said. Any remarks I may make are purely my own views.
The noble Earl and I on a number of occasions have disagreed quite strongly on the subject of animal experimentations. When I obtained his Bill during the recess I was most surprised to find that I supported him practically the whole way through. This is the first really good attempt that we have had—and when I say "good" that is a masterpiece of understatement—at producing a Bill to amend the 1876 Act. The whole of the administration of the 1876 Act, until fairly recently, was clothed in the most appalling fog.
One of the things about which I agree most strongly with my noble friend Lord Ferrier is the totally incomprehensible statistics which have been produced. One of the reasons why there is such tremendous heat against animal experimentation is the enormous numbers—running into millions—of experiments being carried out on animals. The bulk of those experiments were probably justified; perhaps a lot were not. The trouble is that those of us who are on the periphery of these things are presented with only the very worst aspects. One never sees anything being pushed forward to suggest that certain scientific experiments on animals have been made which are going to advance everything for the benefit of mankind. But if one experiment goes wrong there is noise like the trumpets of Hell blowing to welcome the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury. That is wrong, my Lords.
I do not like experiments on animals. My personal feeling is automatically against them. But I hope that I am one of those who can see that these are necessary, and that, up to a point, we have to have them. Many advances which have been made would never have been made without experiments. I am not saying that I agree with the methods on occasions, but I can see that experiments have to take place. I say to the noble Earl: I thank you for taking the steps forward which you have.
I strongly support the noble Earl in moving that this Bill be committed to a Select Committee. I have heard of this House—particularly when we had another

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Government—having long hot summers; this Select Committee is going to have a long hot winter. The Committee is going to be exposed to flames of indignation and wrath day after day. I hope that those selected to sit on it will have a great deal of resistance to pressure, because they are going to suffer it. Apart from that, there are a few small items with which I disagree: some drafting; some minor matters of principle. I heartily support the noble Earl's Bill, and I trust that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading. I wish it the hest of luck in the Select Committee, if it is so committed.
5.10 p.m.
Lord RICHARDSON: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, I was a student of the late Lord Adrian and formed an admiration and a love for him which was very commonly held. It was thus with great delight that I listened to the enormous success of his son when he made his maiden speech this afternoon. My pleasure at this, however, was considerably muted by the fact that he said many of the things that I had wished to say and said them so much better than I would have if I had attempted to say them. So I must confine myself strictly to matters that he did not stress although he mentioned them.
One, I think, is very important—and in this I speak from experience—which is that this debate and this discussion is coming at a time when the Council of Europe is considering the legislation concerning these matters throughout Europe; and several noble Lords have made this point. Why I say I have some experience of this is that the first of the Directives directed towards the professions from the EEC was concerned with my own profession. It was extremely clear that the long experience of organisation of education in this country had a major effect on the tenor of those Directives. In fact, the assessment of sufficiency for medical student training would have been expressed entirely quantitatively had it not been for the introduction of the qualitative element by people representing this country. I believe the same is true in the postgraduate field where, again, we are well organised and know what we think. If in this country we can know what we think and know it in a modern setting—not just
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as it was 103 years ago in its starting—this Bill will have done a very great service to this country.
The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, made very clearly a point about the sponsors for those who should hold licences. I am one of the 10 presidents of institutions who has the task of acting as a second sponsor and, like the late Lord Platt, I find it is intensely difficult and indeed invidious, because I do not know enough of the individuals and sometimes of the subject. I have to search my knowledge and try to find out, but I do not believe I always do this satisfactorily and I know that another president of another institution holds exactly the same views. In the future those who are sponsors not only will, in the one instance, know the individual and his work but, in the other instance, will know the relevance and importance of the experiments to be done.
We have heard this afternoon about emotion. It is not entirely on the side of those who would deplore animal experiments. It is held very strongly indeed by doctors who have to care for patients and who have the greatest and most intense gratitude when there is a specific remedy they can apply, and who have a sense of extreme pain that would amount to terrible anger and resentment if, when they cannot find a remedy that can be applied, the reason for their not finding it is a failure to experiment because of a false logic and a lack of balance as to the relative importance of man and his suffering in relation to that of animals, however greatly one might wish the animals not to suffer.
Mention has been made, as was inevitable in this debate, of penicillin. The experiments that the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, has just told us about were relevant to penicillin. It so happens that last Sunday in the Central Synagogue in Great Portland Street there was held a memorial service for the last to die of the immortal triumvirate of Florey, Fleming and Sir Ernst Chain, and the Chief Rabbi, in a most moving memorial address, said of genius that there had been Darwin and Marx and Freud and Einstein. Then he said:
"Which of those has been responsible for saving the lives of millions and millions of men?"—Sir Ernst Chain

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He went on to say he did not think there was a single person in that vast building full of people who did not owe something to that discovery, either directly or indirectly. I believe this to be true of the Members of your Lordships' House. The emotion is not entirely on the side of the anti-vivisectionists.
5.16 p.m.
Lord AUCKLAND: My Lords, the debt of gratitude which this House owes to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for instigating this debate this afternoon is very much more considerable than many people think, because we have had Bills, quite sincerely meant, from the other side of the spectrum but nothing in those Bills have ever given any real alternative to saving lives and to decreasing the numbers of deaths and disablements through malignant disease. Now at last we have a Bill which we hope will in due course reach the Statute Book, if not in its present form, in something like its present form, because it has very much merit in it.
Most of those who have contributed to this debate have themselves been distinguished doctors and scientists. I cannot classify myself in either category, although for many years my family and I—as I have had reason to mention before to your Lordships—have been involved in sitting on hospital committees of various kinds and have witnessed the use of drugs which have been able to be used, very largely through experiments on animals. I should like in this connection to add my own congratulations to the very erudite maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, whose father was a distinguished and much respected scientist who contributed most valuably to your Lordships' House.
The Bill has the merit of setting out with considerable clarity its aims. It places considerable obligations upon those who conduct these experiments. I think that is a very important point to remember. We were regaled in some of the popular Press recently with some quite loathsome experiments on animals in a certain Oriental country—experiments which would never be allowed here under the legislation at present in force and certainly not under the legislation which the noble Earl, himself a most distinguished scientist, has put in his Bill.
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Of course, this is an emotive subject. Any death of a pet, particularly a dog, cat or rabbit, is a matter for tragedy; but it is something like 0.25 per cent. of dogs which are used in experiments in this country. But let us get things into perspective. How many dogs get thrown out of cars on to a motorway because they are unwanted by families? I must declare an interest here, as we have a dog which was obtained as a small puppy from a lady who specialises in dogs which have come from the RSPCA and which, as puppies, have been ill-treated in some form or other. We have given homes to several such dogs which I am pleased to say have all, so far, lived to a fairly ripe age. We like to think that that is because they have been well looked after.
How many dogs, cats and other animals are kicked, have things thrown at them or have poison indiscriminately put down for them? We hear all too little of this from those who criticise what the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, is seeking to do in his Bill. Of course, no legislation of this kind can be above criticism and no care can be too great to ensure that suffering does not take place. I think that the obligation to put all animals used for these experiments to sleep afterwards, though regrettable in many ways, is essential to make sure that no suffering takes place.
I especially welcome Clause 5 of the Bill, but I wonder whether my noble friend who will be replying for the Home Office, and the noble Earl would consider making this power mandatory, rather than permissive; in other words, substituting "shall" for "may". However, that is a matter for the Select Committee, if that is where the Bill goes. I believe that power to be most essential. Also, it should be extended to the kennels where these dogs are kept, particularly if they are some distance away from where the experiments take place. Similarly, the power in the very important Clause 7 should be mandatory, if it is not already so. I may be doing the noble Earl an injustice in asserting that it is not mandatory, but my reading of the clause is that at the moment it is a discretionary power. One reads stories about the transportation of animals in rather different circumstances, and this is something which is vital.

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It is obviously very difficult to obtain figures of people who have suffered from conditions such as asthma—and, since I suffer from sinus trouble from time to time, I can speak with some knowledge here—arthritis and certain cancers, who would never have seen the light of day for more than a few months or years of their lives, had it not been for these experiments. I have not witnessed many such experiments. I have witnessed one in this country and another at a well-known pharmaceutical company in Antwerp. The experiments were carried out under conditions of absolutely maximum cleanliness, hygiene and skill and there was no question of the animal being ill-treated. There was also no question of a show being put on, merely because several Members of Parliament went along in an official capacity.
I believe that this is a Bill which is well worthy of going to a Select Committee, particularly in view of the possible implications of EEC legislation. If we do not have a Bill such as this, two things will happen. First, animals will suffer very much more than they do now at the hands of all kinds of cheapjack experimenters working for profit, and, secondly, more animals will find themselves abandoned by those who do not know how to look after them. It may, in sonic cases, be a choice between evils. One can understand people's feelings when animals are used on experiments and, in the long run, have to die. But there has been very convincing proof in speeches this afternoon by those who really know and who have taken part in these experiments that much human life has been saved and that much remains to be saved in the future if these perfectly ethical experiments can go on with the Home Office inspectorate being ever vigilant to make sure that no malpractice takes place.
5.27 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, the debate that we have had today has been more than a discussion on the Second Reading of a Bill. I believe that it is the opening of a long and, I hope, fruitful debate on this difficult subject which is likely to continue in Parliament for some time. As an indication of public concern on this question, I would remind your Lordships' House that the
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three major political parties referred to this subject in their respective election manifestoes, and that is a clear sign that public concern about this question has made an impact on political opinion.
I think that we all owe a deep sense of gratitude to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for his accomplished presentation of this Bill to us this afternoon. I have been grateful to him for a long time for his confidence and reports, as occasion arose, on the progress that he was making with this Bill. I say to the noble Lord the Minister opposite that, if he spends half as much time on a Government Bill on this subject as has been spent by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, then at the end of the day we shall have accomplished a fine legislative change.
The Government themselves have promised to introduce a Bill to update the 1876 Act, but now we have a Bill by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, in this House; we are to expect the Second Reading in another place on 16th November of a private Member's Bill introduced by Mr. Peter Fry on the same subject, and currently we have under consideration the draft convention of the Council of Europe, which is also about experimentation on living animals. So after a long period when there has been little happening on this front we have three new elements in the situation, and I think it will be of interest to the House to learn from the Minister how Her Majesty's Government see the legislative programme, the strategy for dealing with this complex problem during this next Session of Parliament.
The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, will probably find that he is a kind of pathfinder for the Government. He is leading the way in thought on this subject. If the Bill is referred to a Select Committee, as I hope it will be, I think that the evidence which will be given to it will be of great value in considering the later stages of discussion and constructive thought on the subject.
I happen to be the chairman of a committee for the reform of animal experimentation, and in the course of today's debate I have not heard the kind of speeches on this Bill that I hear from my friends in the animal welfare movement. The debate has been one of tranquillity. The voice of sanity has

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prevailed throughout. But it takes more than the voice of sanity to make the world go round. It takes the voice of passion, of deeply held conviction, of deeply stirred conscience. That is what we shall be listening to in the weeks and months to come on this and other measures for reform in this field. And we must not despise that. We must take account of the fact that public opinion is stirred more by emotional reactions to a matter of this kind than by the laboratory approach to the use of animals for research and similar purposes.
In my own work in recent months I have missed the late Lord Platt whose vast experience and moderate counsel on this difficult subject was of great benefit to me. I am quite sure that he would have taken part in the debate today had he been spared to comment on my noble friend's Bill. This Bill is to be welcomed for the good it does, which is not inconsiderable. It incorporates practically all the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee which have been neglected for so long because they needed legislative change. The opportunity has now come to incorporate them in the Bill.
The Bill strengthens the conditions under which licences are granted to persons who are suitably qualified. It requires the limits of their use of animals for particular purposes to be clearly laid down. The Bill improves laboratory practices; it imposes conditions for the alleviation of suffering and stress; and in many ways it seeks to make the life of the laboratory animal more tolerable. That is all to the good. However, I see nothing in the Bill which offers any hope of reducing the numbers of animals which pour into our laboratories happily alive but which come out of them miserably dead. I see nothing in the Bill to restrict the use of animals and to get the numbers down, which the leaders of both the Conservative and the Labour Parties have publicly declared to be their wish.
The Home Secretary can, admittedly, use his discretion under the procedures of the Bill to put the brake on practices which would give rise to public indignation if they became known or which would he an objectionable abuse of animal life. However, I cannot put too much confidence in Home Secretaries to use their discretion in Bills of this kind because the
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record of successive Home Secretaries on the Cruelty to Animals Act 1876 is quite deplorable. I know of no Act of Parliament which has been converted so freely by successive Ministers into a piece of elastic as the Cruelty to Animals Act 1876.
That is why I think that we must examine closely the two watchdogs in the public interest with which the Bill deals. One is the inspectorate and the other is the advisory committee. The inspectorate on the one hand and the advisory committee on the other ace the representatives of the public interest here. Clearly the public have an interest in what experimenters are doing. They are doing a great deal at public expense, anyway, and they are doing it under immunity from prosecution under the general criminal laws against cruelty to animals.
To the extent that cruelty or suffering and pain are inflicted on animals in laboratory work, it is done under licence. If it were not done under licence, it would probably be the subject of criminal prosecution. Indeed, not so long ago there was a case in Scotland where, had an experiment been carried out under the protection of the 1876 Act it would not have been open to prosecution; but since the experiment was conducted outside the protection of that Act the person concerned was prosecuted and convicted under the Protection of Animals Act (Scotland) 1912. Therefore those who are doing this work under the protection of the 1876 Act have an obligation to pay attention to public concern. That is why they must submit themselves to be monitored and supervised where suffering may prove to be unavoidable.
The inspectors are there to see that the law and the regulations are complied with. The Bill strengthens their position, and that is to be welcomed. However, they are not able by themselves to provide the Home Secretary with all the advice he needs to exercise the discretion which the Bill would give to him. That is where I think the advisory committee conies in.
Several references have been made by noble Lords to the composition and work of the advisory committee. In a very well informed and interesting speech, the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, referred

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to the advisory committee. Then a few moments ago we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Cross of Chelsea, who until recently was chairman of the advisory committee. The late Lord Platt was a member of the advisory committee and complained bitterly on more than one occasion about the infrequent use made of the committee by Home Secretaries of the day. That is why I am most anxious that the advisory committee provided for in this Bill should not only be statutory but also should have responsibilities and powers of initiative of its own. It should not be dependent wholly upon the call of the Home Secretary to examine a particular matter upon which he needs advice. It must be free. It must have the powers of a watch dog in the public interest.
The present Home Secretary has to some extent forestalled the provisions contained in the Bill relating to the future terms of reference and the composition of the advisory committee. In an announcement made a little while ago the Home Secretary appointed a new chairman—who is not to be one learned in the law, as the noble Lord, Lord Cross of Chelsea, pointed out—and he had fresh proposals to make regarding the terms of reference, which to some extent are satisfactory. However, there is still, unfortunately, a problem as to the composition of the advisory committee: who shall be on it, what kind of background they shall come from and what kind of interest one is to expect them to reflect in the work of the advisory committee.
This is a most difficult question. One can either have a completely neutral, non-professional committee or one can have a committee which has upon it those of experience and those with points of view upon particular aspects of the problem—professional, medical, animal welfare and so forth—and I think we have not finally resolved how the new advisory committee is to be composed. But undoubtedly we want to see on that committee a few intelligent laymen. After all, they are the representatives of the public interest. The public are lay people, but in a democracy their voice is as important, if not more important, than that of more sophisticated and well informed people. We cannot leave all these things to the
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experts. Your Lordships know as well as I do that very often experts, left to themselves, become dangerous people. Some of them even go "dotty" and they require the commonsense of the layman to keep them on the lines of rational thought and activity. That is the element that we want to see on the advisory committee.
The Littlewood Committee understood this when in paragraph 238 of their report they said:
"The role of legislation is to prohibit objectionable activities, to encourage humane practices and to provide for the aceountability to the public of all concerned".
My Lords, that is the keynote of legislation and that must be found in full measure in this Bill. I think that an examination of it will show that it has to be tested against that particular criterion. I strongly support the Motion to refer this Bill to a Select Committee. I support the Second Reading of the Bill, also, not because it is the final word, not because it reflects all that I would wish to see, but because its great value lies in the fact that it is the product of deep thought and consideration by scientific opinion. In particular, it might be said that it represents what the Research Defence Society feels able to accept and that is an important guide in the consideration of this matter.
If we have a Select Committee, I think it will help to receive evidence; not only to invite it but to summon it and let us hear the constructive proposals of those who have much to say on all sides of this argument, and in particular the animal welfare organisations. When animal welfare organisations have carried their message and their propaganda to the point of attracting the serious attention of political parties, the close attention of Government and of Parliament, who want to reform and change the law, then I believe the animal welfare organisations have a clear public duty to come forward with constructive proposals to enable all parties to arrive at an agreed conclusion. That is really what all this should be about and the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has started the process of that opportunity.
This is the first time for many years that we have had the opportunity of embarking on such an important phase of consideration of this matter. I know, as

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my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek said, that there are other worries in the field of animal welfare, but we cannot do everything at once and we cannot put one noble cause in competition with another. I think we have to deal with those things upon which we feel deeply, upon which we believe that we have the knowledge and conviction to advance the matter further and to try to get progress in that way.
The noble Lord, Lord Adrian, and other noble Lords have given their philosophical judgment upon the use of animals for experimental purposes. This is not the moment to open the moral argument, but so far as I am concerned—and I speak only for myself—I do not believe that we have any moral right to do these things to animals. I do not believe that man has any divine or moral right of dominion over other species. Personally I can never accept the doctrine of the sanctity of human life from those who regard animal life as being freely expendable and who will subordinate other living things to the greed and the arrogance and the selfishness of mankind. That is a personal point of view, but I do not let it blind me to other considerations and other points of view. Since we have to get a consensus if we are to get legislation, if we are to get public opinion behind us, if we are to get the response from those who are working in the laboratories, we must all try to come together and get a code and a standard of conduct which will be accepted by all of us as the best possible method of going forward in all the circumstances. Therefore, I hope the House will give the Bill a Second Reading and will adopt the Motion to refer it to a Select Committee, because I believe that the evidence which that Select Committee can obtain will be of enormous value in the later stages of this Bill.
5.47 p.m.
Lord SOMERS: My Lords, I had not intended to speak tonight and I hope your Lordships will bear with me for a few moments. The noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, to whom I always listen with respect, particularly on this subject, regretted the lack of passion in today's debate. I think I may count myself as a modest representative of the animal welfare world: I am the president of the Council of Justice to Animals, I
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am chief patron of the Crusade against all Cruelty to Animals. I am also a patron of a trust which owns a large dogs' home, but I have always found that where one gets passionate defence of animals it is practically invariably from those who are either incapable of seeing both sides of the question or who do not want to see both sides. I believe that the only way in which to make any progress at all is to look at it from a perfectly balanced point of view and to see the pros and cons of the entire subject.
I owe a great deal to the medical profession. In fact if it were not for them I should not be standing here tonight and anything that can further their knowledge I am perfectly prepared to support. I can only say that I entirely support my noble friend's Bill and I sincerely hope that it will go to a Select Committee.
5.49 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, animal experimentation is a complex and highly specialised subject. It also raises moral and social issues which are by no means the exclusive concern of the scientists. I think there are few other scientific activities which give rise to such strong instinctive reactions towards suffering to which many, in fact all, of your Lordships have given expression in the speeches which have been made today. With over 100 years' experience behind us in the working of the Cruelty to Animals Act of 1876, and in view of the developments which have taken place during that time in the fields of scientific research and animal welfare, it is clearly right that the most serious consideration should be given to placing on the Statute Book legislation which takes those developments fully into account. So our thanks are more than usually due to the promoter of a Private Members' Bill: to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, today, not only for introducing what I think is only the second attempt completely to replace the 1876 Act but also because by introducing this important Bill the noble Earl has attracted to the debate many of your Lordships who have a close knowledge of the working of the existing legislation. May I join all other noble Lords in welcoming particularly the speech which was made by the noble Lord, Lord Adrian. In fact the noble Lord has been frequently a patient listener in your

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Lordships' House and I welcome so much that he decided to come and speak on this subject today, a subject on which he has unrivalled qualifications to speak.
If I may say so, the noble Earl's speech and the speeches of other noble Lords have shown that legislation on this subject must maintain a proper balance between the legitimate requirements of science and industry and those of animal welfare. As I think all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate will know better than I do, the basic objective of the 1876 Act, which has continued substantially unchanged to the present day, is to regulate and restrict experiments calculated to cause pain in living vertebrate animals.
It is against that background that the most recent independent review of the working of the Act was carried out by the Littlewood Committee between 1963 and 1965. Perhaps I could just remind your Lordships in passing that the Committee found that the Act had been generally effective in preventing objectionable activities, in encouraging humane practices and in providing for the accountability to the public of all concerned. The members of the Committee concluded, however, that in what were then recent years the provisions of the Act had not matched up to modern scientific and technological requirements and that administration had not kept pace with scientific advance.
The Committee made 83 detailed recommendations. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, said, actions were then taken to try and put at any rate parts of the report into effect. Over 20 of the recommendations were in fact implemented administratively, either wholly or in part, with consequent improvement to the effectiveness of the controls. The most obvious examples are the appointment of lay members to the Advisory Committee and the re-organisation which took place of the Inspectorate.
Perhaps I could just pick up the point which the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, kindly made in his speech: that on the 25th July the Government announced a reconstitution of the Advisory Committee with a new name, the Advisory Committee on Animal Experiments, with wider terms
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of reference and with a new chairman, following the period of service which the noble Lord, Lord Cross of Chelsea, had most kindly given to the work of that committee. The noble and learned Lord gave us advice as he saw it on how the committee could develop in the future with regard to both composition and function. Lord Adrian in his speech also referred to the Advisory Committee, as also did the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, and I do assure all three noble Lords and the rest of your Lordships that I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to what has been said not only generally in this debate but specifically on that particular subject.
Some 10 recommendations from Little-wood called for no specific action in that they endorsed provisions in existing legislation or in existing practice. Of the remainder of the Littlewood recommendations some 20 needed legislation. May I just say that the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has, I think, every right to claim, as he did in his speech, that his Bill aims to deal with those remaining recommendations of Littlewood which needed legislation. The Government have also had this in mind and this was why at the General Election our Manifesto undertook to introduce legislation updating the Act. When the noble Baroness, Lady Hylton-Foster, asks me about higher standards and what the Government would do to commit themselves to higher standards in this field, my answer is that updated legislation would be designed to continue to enable improvement in standards of animal experiments along with strengthened control for animal welfare.
As the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, mentioned in his speech, however, a United Kingdom delegation is currently engaged, in full consultation with the animal welfare organisations and with the research and professional interests, in discussions in the Council of Europe on a draft convention to protect animals used for experimental purposes. In fact the delegation only returned from the latest round of work last weekend. I understand that the overall shape of the convention is becoming clearer, but there remains a good deal of work to be done on the contents. I hope that after listening to Lord Richardson's professional testimony

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to the influence which the medical profession in this country has had on EEC Directives your Lordships will allow me to assert that I believe we are playing a leading part in these discussions on the European Convention, and this is a tribute to this country's long experience in this field. Although I cannot commit the Government at this stage, I very much hope that, not least through United Kingdom influence, a convention is going to emerge to which we shall have no difficulty in being able to give our assent. This would in itself almost inevitably mean that the Government would be required to bring in new legislation to meet the pro-visions of the convention.
In case your Lordships think that this is simply an excuse for saying that there-fore the Government are not prepared to do anything at the present moment, may I just explain the effect of what I have just tried to say. It seems likely that the Council of Europe convention will establish general principles of control while preserving a measure of flexibility as to method, so that each of the contracting countries would have a certain amount of freedom in adopting its own preferred control system. But really it is too early to be sure that United Kingdom legislation produced now would not need amendment in the light of the convention in its final form. There are several key issues which will receive further study in Strasbourg.
If I may give one concrete example, the latest draft of the convention covers the breeding and supply of laboratory animals, which is beyond the scope of the 1876 Act. In order to comply with the convention, therefore, we would have to provide for controls in this particular area. I recognise absolutely that the Bill of the noble Earl contains a provision about this, but with respect it is a very general provision embodied in Clause 7, and I think it is too early to say whether further provision would be needed to meet the requirements of the convention as the convention emerges in its final form. This consideration applies not only to the question of controls on the breeding and supply of animals. If I may weary your Lordships with one other example, it applies also to all aspects of animal experimentation which are to be covered by the convention.
Here is another example. The draft convention as it stands recognises as a
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legitimate goal of experimentation "the improvement of life of man or animal", and this is taken up in the noble Earl's Bill in Clause 2(c)(ii). But it is very much a matter requiring careful examination and further debate as to whether this principle, which could allow all manner of abuses, should be subject to further refinement and restriction. This question will almost certainly be among matters which must receive further study at the next meeting of the Council of Europe committee.
The noble Earl has indicated that his Bill has the broad approval of many of the scientific and research interests. The noble Earl's wish to demonstrate that those who are animal users are no less concerned with animal welfare than other people is certainly welcomed by all, and it is in that context that our debate this afternoon has been held. As we have heard, however, certainly from the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, there are wider issues on which the non-scientist expects to be heard and has a right to be heard. May I put it like this. What is the informed non-scientist pre-pared to accept in the use of experimental animals? I would suggest that he would not find acceptable some aspects of this Bill, which might indeed appear to compare unfavourably in concern for the welfare of experimental animals with the provisions of the 1876 Act, which they are intended to replace. That is particularly so as regards the purposes for which animals may be used.
I have already mentioned the question of experiments concerned with improving life, that is to say, non-medical experiments. As drafted Clause 2 (c) (v)—experiments done solely for the purpose of teaching technical skills—might also be unacceptable to some people. I acknowledge that some relaxation of the absolute prohibition in the 1876 Act is desirable to take account of the demands of the highest levels of modern surgery, and that Clause 2 (g) of the Bill requires a licensee to have the Secretary of State's permission before conducting an experiment for such a purpose. That is certainly a safeguard, but I do not know that it goes far enough. In general, the use of live animals for the purpose of gaining manual dexterity is surely to many people morally repugnant.

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I should have thought one would need to consider very carefully whether it could only be justified exceptionally.
Our informed non-scientists would also be likely to find difficulty with Clause 2 (h) which deals with infliction of pain on an animal during an experiment. I was interested to hear the noble Earl's list of forms of treatment, and the list of the noble Lord, Lord Cross, of new substances which have developed since the 1876 Act came into force. I can well under-stand why the scope of the word "pain" in the context of modern animal experiments, is now much wider than when the 1876 Act was drafted. I must say that I am not convinced that the drafting of Clause 2 (h) would adequately deal with the problem. It would, for example, allow prolonged pain if the experimenter could satisfy himself that the degree of pain was not too severe; and it is left to the judgment of the experimenter as to what is severe pain or distress. I realise that these are difficult issues which—as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, and the noble Lord, Lord Richardson, said—must be put in the context of the saving of many lives. These are issues which rightly will be occupying much time at Strasbourg.
I should like to deal with one other point. A general feature of the Bill which gives it, quite wrongly, an incomplete appearance—"quite wrongly" because we know of the enormous amount of work and professional expertise which has been put in—is the considerable extent to which it would leave matters to be determined by the Secretary of State. Clause 7 in effect leaves the control of supply, breeding, transport, accommodation, veterinary supervision and laboratory animal care to subordinate legislation without any indication being given as to the scope of the regulations. If for no other reason than that such controls may require financial provisions, some further substantive provision seems essential if effective controls are to be established over all these matters.
I know that it is bound to give a mis-leading view of a Bill—indeed it may, if I may say so, give a rather impertinent view—to select the more obvious difficulties. Therefore, I should also like to say that I have been enormously impressed
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with the general aims of the Bill, with the noble Earl's speech and, without any Government commitment, I was most interested to hear the noble Earl speak of the licensing provisions of the Bill and of his idea of a guide to good animal laboratory practice. Of course, many of the provisions stem straight from the Littlewood recommendations. But, whether or not the differences of view concerning this Bill are capable of reconciliation, any legislation must, as I have already argued, be introduced against the background of the provisions which will be included in the forthcoming European Convention.
In the gracious Speech, the Government have declared their intention to introduce legislation when we know what the European Convention provides; but in the meantime, if close study of all the issues involved in the noble Earl's Bill can be undertaken, it would be an enormously valuable contribution to this country's revised legislation which we shall have to have. The noble Earl has indicated that if the Bill is given a Second Reading he will move for the Bill's referral to a Select Committee. The Government would support such a move in order to facilitate detailed examination of these difficult issues and we should, of course, give very careful consideration to the Select Committee's views.
6.5 p.m.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, in winding up the debate I should like to begin by thanking the whole House for the kind reception that has been afforded to this Bill. Without a single exception everyone has paid tribute to the work of the drafting and advisory team which I was able to engage. I should like generally to thank the whole House.
Without wishing to prolong the debate unduly, your Lordships will perhaps allow me to take up a few points that have been made by various speakers and reply to them. I should like generally to assure the whole House that as regards any what I call "Committee points" that have been raised, I personally shall be responsible for combing through the Official Report of today's date and ensuring that they are referred to the Select Committee, if your Lordships give the Bill a Second

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Reading and the Select Committee is set up. By giving that general undertaking I shall be able to shorten my remarks.
As regards the matters raised by the noble Earl, Lord Grey, I should like to point out that he has not quite under-stood the implications of Clause 18. Of course an inspector has right of entry, but what happens if that right of entry is withstood? Is the inspector to be given the right to break in?—No, my Lords. He must go to a magistrate, and a police officer must be given a warrant to break in and search the premises for whatever it may be. We cannot have people untrained in breaking and entering, other than burglars whom we send to prison. If anyone is to break and enter on a warrant from a magistrate it must be a police officer who knows his powers under that warrant.
The other matter which I thought the noble Earl had not fully understood was cosmetics. I want your Lordships to appreciate how general the term is and perhaps I can make it a little more personal by giving an example. Suppose the wife of one of your Lordships or some noble Baroness was involved in a motor accident and was very badly scarred. It would be only natural to want to disguise those scars by cosmetical treatment. Scarred tissue is abnormally sensitive to carcinogens and therefore it is particularly important that cosmetics used for that purpose should be free from carcinogens. To say that they may not be tested by putting some general embargo on the testing of cosmetics would be quite wrong. I do not want to elaborate the matter. The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, and I discussed the matter fully on the occasion of her two Bills.
I was delighted with the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Adrian. In addition to the other qualities referred to by your Lordships, I noticed at one point a little note of dry wit which always com-mends itself to your Lordships' attention and which we shall look forward to hearing in the future. I noted his point about nominations to the advisory councils and will bear it in mind in Committee.
I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, becoming over-emotionally involved with an experimental rabbit. I once nursed through all its childhood
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a small duckling with a broken leg which became, as it were, a toy for the children to play with and needless to say, it was known as "Donald". However, eventually came Christmas and we had to eat Donald. When we saw his broken leg on the dish coming out of the oven we were all deeply distressed to know that Donald had gone.
I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Janner, said about the use of the placenta. I shall follow that up by reading what he recommended. However, I must make one point clear on the use of these alternatives. To establish and validate an alternative to animal experiments means using many more supernumerary animals. This is an area where one should make haste slowly otherwise one will find that one is sacrificing an un-necessarily large number of animals to the validation of alternatives which turn out not to be alternatives.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl will allow me to make just one remark on that point. The experiments to which I referred needed no experimentation on animals at all.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, in order to establish that the technique of using whatever it may be—a placenta or tissue culture—gives the same result as that which would be obtained using an animal there needs to be correlation of the results on the former with the results on the animal. That is where the supernumerary animals must be used.
I was delighted with the support that I received from my noble friend Lady Hylton-Foster. I am only too happy to assure her that I can take the three points she made to Committee to see what can be made of them. I was most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, for his comments about extension of the coverage and his defence of the Bill against the broadcast this morning. I was telephoned at a late hour last night and asked whether I would give an inter-view and make a recording for this morning's broadcast on Radio 4. Rightly or wrongly, I said that I would not, that I wanted to go into a huddle the night before this debate, stew over my notes and think about what I was going to say, and not get involved in making a recording.

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I was extremely interested in the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cross of Chelsea, who spoke of the change of emphasis that there has been between the parties, who hitherto had been at daggers drawn. This is well represented in this House by the cordial relationship that has subsisted now for quite a number of years between the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, and myself, who have been in one another's confidence over progress in this area. I take the noble and learned Lord's point about the seats for animal welfare; there are vacant seats on the Council which could be used for this purpose. Again, it would be a Committee point to argue out whether they should be nominated for a specific purpose or whether the seats should be left open at the discretion of the Home Secretary.
I was delighted with the exposition of the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, on, as it were, the arithmetic of the annual report, because this is something that tends to be extremely misleading. I shall deal with that again when I come to some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby.
Having wrestled with the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, in years past, few people's speeches have pleased me more than his. The concept of wrestling with the noble Lord must be taken in a very general sense because, many years ago as little boys, we used to wrestle together when playing in Ranelagh Gardens. I am delighted to have his support. I was very glad that my noble friend Lord Richardson stressed the contribution that Britain can make to leadership by drawing on his experience in medical matters, and I was also delighted with the support of the noble Lord, Lord Auckland. As regards the mandatory as opposed to the permissive element in Clause 7, it reads, "The Secretary of State may". When the noble Lord speaks of making it mandatory, I take it that he wants Clause 7 to read, "The Secretary of State must". There is a certain drafting difficulty in making this mandatory because we cannot say that the Secretary of State must make a regulation on a matter if he may not want to make a regulation. There must be a point where we trust the Home Secretary to do what
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we expect him to do. If he does not, then we must chase him all over the horizon in Parliament, which is the right place to bring pressure to bear, rather than put it into written words, which can be so treacherous.
Lastly, I turn to what the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, had to say. The noble Lord called me a pathfinder. I had thought of myself more as a pace-maker, but I shall deal with that when I reply to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, on behalf of the Home Office. With all respect to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, I believe that to take numbers as a criterion is to pursue a will-o'-the-wisp. There are no magic numbers in nature, politics, or anything else. But numbers are not policy determinants; they are policy consequents. We cannot have a policy for animal experimentation based on, for example, the use of 4 million animals rather than 5 million. We are dealing with an on-going situation, never an equilibrium. Old methods are always falling into desuetude, new methods are coming into practice. New alternatives are being found and at the same time new demands are being made which entail the use of animals. At the end of the road the final balance is what it is. If we think that it is too much, we must attack it at some other point and not simply say, "Let us reduce numbers".
There are some points in common between the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, and the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, which I should like to emphasise to your Lord-ships because we must face reality. Human beings are at the apex of the predatory pyramid on this planet. No animal species can withstand us: save on the rare occasions when we have to meet a rogue elephant single-handed, we always come out on top. Nothing stands between any animal, individual or species and blue hell but the conscience of humanity. We must incorporate that conscience into statutes as best we can. There comes a point when we have to trust the Home Secretary to do what we want him to do, and that is where I join my notes on the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, with the remarks that I want to talk about made by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, concerning the intentions of Government.

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There is many a slip twixt cup and lip. I appreciate that the Government would like to introduce new legislation, and that they would like to string along with Strasbourg. I am disturbed to find that Strasbourg meets only twice a year for this particular purpose. At its last meeting it only managed to get through the second half of the first draft of this convention. Having read the first half, I conclude that an enormous amount of work needs to be done on it. If we are to wait upon Strasbourg, I am afraid that it may fall in the lifetime, not of this Government but of the next Government, or possibly the one after that. Therefore, regarding myself as a pacemaker, I intend to press ahead with this Bill. Both during the last Government and during this Government's time in office I have been in touch with the Home Office throughout. I have never made any secret of the fact that, if I can pilot this Bill safely through this House, I hope the Government will take it over and, needless to say, make the necessary amendments to it. I hope that they will make it a Government Bill and see it through its hazards.
In my next remarks I shall attribute motives to all Governments that have ever been. I do not know whether in logic there is such a thing as a "trilemma" as opposed to a dilemma, but this situation is one in which there are three alternatives which no Government would like. In the other place Governments never want to put the Whips on on an emotionally laden subject; they like to give such a subject a free vote. On the other hand, Governments never want to have responsibility for administering a Bill which may have been mutilated in Committee by enthusiasm in an unwhipped House. Finally, Governments do not want to lose face by having to withdraw their own legislation from Parliament because it has been mutilated. The result is that the system has been biased in favour of inactivity.
When I was going through the early period of gestation before producing the Bill this afternoon, it seemed to me that, if I could take upon myself the onus of the initiative, if I had to I could withdraw the Bill—I am not a Government; I do not lose face; it is just another Private Member's Bill that does not get proceeded with. I could perhaps get the Bill to the stage where the Government
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could take it over, knowing that they could back it fairly effectively without the risk of it being mutilated.
I hope that, if the Bill goes to a Committee, the Government will give evidence in Committee. I should hate to feel that they might rob us of their wisdom and experience, for these definitions of "pain" and so on are very difficult. We are dealing, as I said in my opening remarks, with situational ethics, where you are pitchforked into a situation not of your making and you have to make the best of it. With those remarks, coupled to my firm intention to press on with this Bill so long as it is in your Lordships' House, I beg to move.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee.—(The Earl of Halsbury)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill committed to a Select Committee.

BBC OVERSEAS BROADCASTING SERVICE
6.21 p.m.
Lord BUXTON of ALSA Lord BUXTON of ALSA rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will ensure that in the national interest there will be no curtailment of the BBC's overseas broadcasting services, despite the need for general economies, because of the long-term importance of maintaining both the British viewpoint and uniquely impartial sources of information to peoples throughout the world. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is I believe an extremely critical issue that we are about to debate. I am therefore greatly encouraged that so many of your Lordships are following me. I am also reassured by the formidable authority of those who are going to speak. In my view, we are at a crossroads. We have suddenly discovered ourselves at a crossroads affecting our standing in the world, and if we take the wrong turning now we can start an adverse slide that we may be unable to arrest.
The majority of countries in the world do not have a free Press or independent broadcasting. The majority do not have either. Authoritarian regimes thrive on the principle that they can achieve their objectives and, they believe, perhaps miracles, provided people are kept in the dark and do not know about their failures and shortcomings. They in fact welcome and approve ignorance. Are we in Britain now going to give encouragement to this conception?
I have no vested interest, but I should perhaps mention that I am a director of an ITV company, Anglia, in the East of England. But if I do have an interest it is one which I believe is shared by millions of people at home and by countless millions around the globe; that is to sustain and, if possible, expand the reception of the British viewpoint in the world and of our uniquely impartial news services and information. I hope that the sequence of events which has led to this impasse or threat will be chronicled by the Government when they reply.
As I understand it, the Foreign Office, required earlier this year to make cuts like every other department, required part of their cuts to be made by the BBC External Services. Rather than find the additional sum internally, or somewhere else, it was considered that our most valuable export, the best export we have left, could be mauled and amputated. This has caused very great concern in many countries, and not only in the countries where the BBC is listened to, but especially in the United States where there has been a great deal of agitation and coverage in their Press.
I feel that the Foreign Secretary and the Government must be blameless up to now because of the timing. Frankly, it looks to me like a standard and probably quite excusable departmental banana skin. But sadly this misjudgment has some of the characteristics of much of our foreign posture over the last two decades: an apparent disposition to opt out, disengage, and to off-load responsibilities. Seen by the ordinary citizen there appears to be a yearning to have as few obligations in the world as possible. So now it has been proposed that even the British voice, the only voice for millions of freedom and truth, should be sacrificed along with what
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remains of our prestige and influence—just to save the cost of about one military aircraft.
Could it also be that the power of broadcasting, the power of the BBC over-seas broadcasts, are a worry to somebody? Are they a worry to the Government? I do not know. But if so we should be en-lightened, and that would form an important and interesting subject for debate. I understand that the cuts to be imposed will have a much greater impact than is generally understood. In fact, according to the Economist it may reduce us as overseas broadcasters to the level of North Korea or Albania. Now just consider that when Britain, through the BBC, has been the pioneer and the premier voice on radio around the world for over half a century. I feel that one can hardly hold this Government responsible for the history of declining influence, but they are now responsible at the eleventh hour for saving this nation from an ignominious withdrawal from the radio shortwaves—thus making way for less truthful Governments where freedom may not exist, to fill the vacuum.
Perhaps it is not properly understood that we cannot expect to reopen on these frequencies if, in the future, we change our minds. Let us be quite clear about this: once out we shall almost certainly be out for ever. There are three reasons why once out we may not get in again. They are, first, that the expert team of foreign journalists which has been thoughtfully built up and welded over the years by the BBC External Services will have been disbanded and will not be available. You cannot just pick things up like that over-night. Secondly, the listeners will not be there because they will have been switched off and lost to other countries and other services. But, primarily—and thirdly—the frequencies will not be there because they will have been surrendered and will not be recoverable. You do not own the frequency. You are entitled to use it by international agreement. But if you opt out and fail to exercise the right you have registered, other nations will fill it. It is standard practice to fill any holes which exist.
May I quote the recent words of an Asian Ambassador which were reported last month in the New York Times.

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He said:
"To the degree that British foreign policy has any influence outside Rhodesia, it's only because of the impact of the BBC. Mrs. Thatcher doesn't seem to know it, but shortwave is this country's most important export."
That was an Asian Ambassador. I am quite sure that the Prime Minister does know it and, when the full implications of this critical prospect are made known to her, that she will not hesitate to respond.
Apart from the possibility that perhaps the Foreign Office might be apprehensive about the power of the BBC broadcasts in parts of the world—I have no idea whether that is so—it is not relevant to this debate if some BBC external broadcasts occasionally sound as if they come from the East and not from the West. The same could be said of course on odd occasions about BBC internal services, and of television, including ITV. But that is not relevant to the subject of cutting the volume of overseas broadcasts, because the question of bias and impartiality should be dealt with quite separately.
Those matters have to be dealt with by the authorities concerned who have the statutory power to act, and maybe they are sometimes guilty of pussy-footing and possibly well-meaning tolerance, which usually finishes up by being interpreted as plain funk. We all have these problems in the media. But this question of bias is a red herring when it comes to the critical subject of curtailing our national broadcasts to the rest of the world. It cannot conceivably be dealt with by cutting the budget. That is like amputating your foot because you have stubbed your toe.
The second aspect which should be ignored in the context of this debate is the question of the BBC's finances, and whether its home services are efficiently and economically run or not. This is not relevant to the subject of the external services. The licence fee and the domestic revenue are for the home services, radio and television. These funds should not be appropriated for overseas radio. I suggest that the public, when paying for a licence to receive television programmes at home, would have something impolite to say if part of this payment was to be used for External Services. Whether for better—or one hopes not for worse—the External Services are the responsibility of the
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Foreign Office. Therefore, there is no place in the context of my Question for points about the general economy of the BBC. Only details about the economy of the External Services would be relevant.
May I start by expressing my own clear feeling or conviction. I believe that no Government, neither this nor any other Government, have the moral right to cut off millions of human beings anywhere in the world from the voice of Britain, from the sound of truth, from the message of freedom. The Government may have the statutory power, but they do not have the moral right any more than they have the right to snip the lifeline of a North Sea diver; any more than they have the moral right to cut the hawser of a cable car when there are miners underground; any more than they have the right to pull the bung out on a boatload of boat people. The Government do not have the moral right, after only six months in office, to throttle any part of the service on which human beings of so many nations have been relying for so long.
If the Government do exercise their statutory power in this way and plunge millions of the West's friends and potential allies into silence and loneliness, that will be shameful for this country and it will be a grievous blow to our prestige and self-esteem in the eyes of the world just at the moment when the Prime Minister is doing so much, so successfully, to revive both.
It has been reported that rather than cut broadcasts to the Middle East, Africa and perhaps South America, we should discontinue the vernacular broadcasts to Europe and to developed countries. Apparently somebody considers it reason-able—if the voice of freedom has reluctantly to be discontinued for the benefit of listeners in Asia, Africa and so on—and a useful solution to cease broadcasts to most of Europe as a sort of compromise, to cease conveying the British viewpoint to the landmass from Turkey right round to France. Evidently somebody is not aware that the battle for men's minds, the struggle between the Soviets and the freedom of the West, is primarily being fought out in Europe and among the developed nations. How can the oldest, longest-surviving champion of freedom and democracy— how can Britain, to whom all the world looks for hope and example, how can the country to which refugees

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from the workers' paradise consistently flee, how can Britain of all countries seriously contemplate stopping communications in their own language with individual human beings in Europe, East and West?
Everybody hopes there will never be strife again in Europe involving this country, but only a dreamer would consider it impossible. In war as in peace communications with individuals abroad is absolutely vital. Suppose there was another war and the survival of this country and the West was at stake. Would anyone want to be the Foreign Secretary of the day and have to admit that the country, when hostility started, had no way to talk to the people of Europe and the developed countries, that there was no way to convey the voice of democracy and hope to individuals in their homes? Are this Government to go down in history as the one who surrendered our broadcasting facilities to Russia or Albania or any other political puppet? Is this in years to come to be the Government's skeleton in the cupboard?
Take the other situation. Suppose that mercifully there is no war and that things conceivably start to move in favour of freedom and democracy and that the light of the West starts to burn more brightly. Communications with all parts of the world then become imperative to give leadership and inspiration, especially in Europe, but again the Foreign Secretary would then have to say to the country, "I am sorry, but the Conservative Government stopped all that in 1980 because that was the only way they could find a few million quid".
Can we seriously contemplate such a prospect? This Government are thank-fully seeking to strengthen our security, and none too soon, both at home and abroad, with the support and approval of the vast majority of the British people. They are endeavouring to redress the dangerously weak state of our defences and restore our position in NATO. A vital component of our contribution to NATO, in addition to our Forces and equipment, is our long-established foreign broadcasting services, more experienced and more independent than any other in the world. The radio services in numerous foreign languages to which people in all
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the countries in Europe cling must be an integral part of our strategy; they were and are a key component of the West's position over the years.
In cutting news, information and the British viewpoint to foreign countries, the Foreign Office would blatantly be marching in the opposite direction to the Prime Minister who has recently expressed Britain's determination to strengthen our position in Europe. You cannot improve defence and the scale of our contribution while at the same time cutting the vital component, information. That is irrational, to put it politely. Again, I do not believe this or any Government have a moral right to sever these vital human links and relationships in Europe for the sake of financial savings. If they exercise their statutory power in this respect, that is one thing, but it would earn scorn for our country across the world, and to do that we do not have the moral right without even the consent and approval of NATO.
Even the Central Policy Review Staff in the Berrill Report, which recommended savage cuts in overseas broadcasting along with a diminishing of our presence in the world, conceded that external broad-casting
"is the most effective instrument the U.K. has for keeping alive knowledge of the values and ideas of a free society. It can justifiably be claimed to be one of the U.K.'s success stories".
The cuts in external broadcasting recommended in the Berrill Report were then considered with great thoroughness and care by the Expenditure Committee of the House of Commons in its report last year, and they were rejected. The conclusion of the Expenditure Committee was:
"We believe that the BBC External Services form a vital part of Britain's overseas representation. The BBC has a unique reputation for objectivity and reliability, built up in a time of war as well as peace, and based in no small measure on the fact that it operates a genuine World Service free from an incubus of political motivation. It would therefore be madness, in our view, to impose swingeing cuts on the present service precisely at a time when, as the CPRS acknowledge, other countries are stepping up their efforts…We therefore strongly urge the Government to find the extra finance for much needed improvements to audibility in key parts of the world. The money at present devoted to the external services represents, in our judgement, one of the most cost-effective items of expenditure within the Government's programme and one which would richly repay a further modest investment".
That was last year. Impulsively to curtail the BBC's foreign broadcasting therefore

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would be acting in defiance of the considered view of the all-party group of Members of Parliament who expressed that view only 12 months ago. There would be no ally or support for the cuts that are proposed, except from the authors of the Berrill Report, which Conservative spokesmen then in opposition roundly and fiercely condemned.
If the Foreign Office has got itself into a corner where it has no room for manoeuvre and can apparently contrive no other way of saving the prescribed sum, then with the greatest respect the Government must intervene in some way or another because people in different parts of the world must not lose these precious sources of information. We are talking about human beings—actual live listeners—not colours on the map.
It is a meaningless exercise in seeking to justify some cuts to ask, "Where will discontinuing the British voice matter least?" Does that mean which country or area has the least number of people, or where are the BBC broadcasts are least popular, or which is the country most friendly, or most unfriendly, or what? Such criteria are frankly unreal, whichever one adopts, because what is at stake is human beings, individual listeners. Surely an individual in some wilderness is just as entitled to hear British sources of information as somebody in the heart of a European city, and vice-versa.
A hurried last minute search for groups of the human race who can be denied the British voice, the voice of freedom, is fruitless, cynical and, frankly, shameful. The Administration of this country and its financial accounting cannot be so inept that a sum of £4 million, or £1 million or £2 million or £3 million cannot be saved somewhere. I can think of several ways myself, but I do not want to raise new or contentious issues today.
Finally, I urge the Government that such external matters, those affecting Britain's place in the world, should be regarded separately from the management of the domestic economy. One is simply not comparing like with like. The fear that by maintaining the cost of the BBC's External Services there might follow a wave of demands in connection with domestic issues from other departments for similar immunity is, in my view, unreason-
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able and unacceptable. It is a question of Britain's future in the world that we are talking about. We do not want any fudged solutions to this critical problem which is causing so much concern at home and abroad. We do not want financial tinkering to wriggle through the impasse which may seem to have been created.
We need a clear response that the BBC's External Services will not be curtailed and will in fact be strengthened, as recommended by the House of Commons Committee last year. We need this assurance. My solution is simple. The budget for the External Services should, in my view, be marginally increased and not cut at all, as the Expenditure Committee implied. This would place foreign broadcasting in a different and separate category from home problems, thus silencing inter-departmental argument as it occurs. Apart from the recommendation of the Expenditure Committee, there is one further voice in support which I should like to quote. I refer to a statement made by a present Minister of State at the Foreign Office, who said in a Conservative political pamphlet published in 1977:
"We should strengthen the external services of the BBC".
I agree with that, my Lords.
6.40 p.m.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, I am extremely happy to be the first to be able to associate myself with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa, has so eloquently said. We are told—and I only hope that this may be denied by the Minister who is to reply—that it is the intention of the Government to cut the budget of the BBC's Overseas Service by 10 per cent.; that is to say, by £4 million. Such cuts, if made, would, we understand, for reasons given in the speech by Lord Buxton, result in the services concerned being permanently suppressed. We are also told that it is likely that the Government will in the circumstances recommend the maintenance of our admirable World Service and retain also those directed towards Communist countries in Eastern Europe and perhaps also those to the Arab world, thereby in effect accepting the proposals which were put forward by the "Think Tank" two years ago. That would of course mean leaving £4 million to be recovered on the remaining services;

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namely, those (in the local languages) to Asia, Africa, Latin America and Western and Southern Europe.
If all this is so, it would seem that, given the necessity in any case of maintaining various powerful transmitters which are essential for the audibility of the World Service, together with other overheads, the cuts in various individual services would perforce be very severe; no less, we understand, than 12 to 16 out of 38 services having to be closed down altogether—that is, permanently—and the total broadcasting time reduced by any-thing from 17 to 25 per cent. In other words—and I do not think that this can be, or will be, disputed by the Government—the effect of a 10 per cent. financial cut would be not only disproportionate, but also highly disruptive of a service that has been carefully built up over many years.
More particularly, it has been calculated— and here again the Government will be able to confirm or deny—that if the World Service and services to the Arab world are to be maintained in their entirety, a cut of £4 million would result in a suppression of services of the order of magnitude—and I say "of the order of magnitude"—of all those, in the local languages, to Western and Southern Europe and Latin America, or alter-natively all those (again in the local languages) to the Indian sub-continent, the Far East, and Africa. In other words, about 40 million people, mostly in countries where Communism is making great or considerable headway, would cease to hear the voice of the BBC at all and thus be deprived for the most part of their only reliable sources of information. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Buxton, said, one can imagine their feelings.
My Lords, these same proposals were of course debated by your Lordships two years ago and were indignantly rejected by a very large majority in the House; and they were also rejected in another place. Seeing that their party is now in office, I venture to give one or two quotations from the sentiments then expressed by very prominent Conservative leaders. The first is that of the voice of the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, who has told me that unfortunately due to another engagement she has had
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to scratch her name from the list of speakers. With her consent I can quote her and report she sticks a hundred per cent. to what she then said. It was, as reported at columns 925 and 926 of the Official Report of 23rd November 1977:
"our Overseas Service of the BBC is the best broadcasting on radio … of any country in the world … To suggest that that is something on which we should cut down seems utterly and absolutely wrong".
Then there was the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, who is not present this evening. He said, as reported at columns 939 and 940:
"To cut as drastically as is suggested … would be to throw away valuable and irreplaceable assets … Should we willingly discard these means of direct communication, greatly envied by other countries? Surely the answer must be, No."
Then there was the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel. Do I see him here this evening? Yes, I do. With his permission I should like to quote what he said. He said, as reported at column 887:
"The Overseas Service of the BBC is accepted far and wide as the most objective presentation of world events … It is a British asset which should not be put at risk by paring and pinching. Indeed, an increase in its budget would he a good investment".
That sentiment was repeated in the House of Commons a little later, on 14th December 1977, when Mr. Farr, apparently speaking for the Tory Party, after roundly condemning the CPRS proposals, made much the same point when he said that he would have thought that one of the options that should have been considered was the possibility of an increase in BBC External Services.
So it is clear that only two years ago Conservative leaders were unanimous in repudiating any proposal to cut the budget of the BBC's Overseas Service by a penny. They even thought that the budget should be increased rather than pruned or cut. So how comes it that a Tory Government may now be proposing to cut these same services by anything from 17 to 25 per cent.? The only possible answer seems to be that, since it has been decided as a matter of policy to cut Government expenditure by 10 per cent., expenditure in every branch of govern-mental activity must be reduced by exactly the same percentage. Well, if this is really so—which I can hardly believe—it is logical lunacy. Even admitting that

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expenditure must be reduced overall, it does not follow that all Departments and all branches of Departments must be cut by precisely the same extent. Of course not! All cuts are unpleasant, but obviously some are less unpleasant than others, and some in the simple interests of national survival should not be made at all.
Of course, all Ministers confronted with the necessity of cuts will say, "Not me". But it should then be for the Prime Minister to say which of them, if any, should be exempted. As I understand it, she has already exempted the Service Departments, and if she is to stick to her undertaking to increase defence expenditure to the extent of 3 per cent. per annum, that is an exemption which of course must be made. But having done that, then she should presumably have considered whether for political or social reasons, or whatever, other Departments might be asked to cut rather more than the general average and others perhaps rather less. These priorities having been determined, it surely should then have been left to the Departments themselves to decide which among their own sub-departments should have, as it were, priority. For instance, in the case of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office it might well have been considered that the additional £4 million of cuts in its budget, necessary if the Overseas Services were exempted altogether, should be made in other parts of the diplomatic and consular vote in addition to those already announced, I understand, in the Press.
Surely, for instance, a cut or a further cut in the frais (as they call it) of members of the foreign service everywhere would be preferable to the closing down of the voice of Britain in many of the countries concerned. For example, it might be unpleasant for a First Secretary in Jakarta to have to reduce the number of his guests by 15 per cent. rather than 10 per cent., but most people in this country, I believe, would think that that would be a lesser blow to British interests than the suppression of the BBC broadcasts to Indonesia. Additionally, or alternatively, what about closing down yet more diplomatic establishments (more especially those which have only a minor role in pushing British exports) and perhaps asking one of our European Community
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colleagues with a major stake in the area concerned to look after our interests? That suggestion has been made before but has not been followed up.
My Lords, it may be said that such suggestions do not come well from an ex-member of the service, and, naturally, I should not welcome further cuts in the frais as such; of course not. But, really, if—and I only say "if"—it is a straight choice between that and crippling the BBC, I believe that many members of the present Foreign Service would shoulder the burden cheerfully. I may be wrong in this, but I believe that, in addition to the suppression of certain posts, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office may be asked to make economies of scale that might result in some of its staff becoming redundant. But I submit that that is something which was bound to happen in any case. There are probably many too many people in all Government Departments engaged in writing letters to each other in strict accordance with Parkinson's Law; and, though painful, I do not see how, given our present parlous economic position, this kind of cut can be criticised or resisted. It would certainly not be self-defeating, as would be an attempt to curtail the Overseas Services of the BBC.
Or, my Lords, take aid. Are we really satisfied that the relatively tiny sum of £4 million might not with advantage be deducted from the total aid budget (I do not know whether that comes under the Foreign Office or not), some of which, at least, is suspected of getting into the wrong hands or of being otherwise misdirected? For instance, is it true that this year we are contributing £11 million of aid to Nigeria, by all accounts now a rich oil country, which, in any case, has just been nationalising BP without, as I understand it, very much compensation? How would our interests be served by paying out such sums at the virtual expense of one of our greatest assets? My Lords, it does not make any sense to me, and I do not think it will make any sense to your Lordships.
Finally, there is yet another good reason for not cutting any of the overseas programmes of the BBC. They are the only means we have of disseminating news about what we are now doing in Brussels and in Strasbourg to carry out our obligations under the Lomé Convention

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and in accordance with the various association agreements of the European Economic Community—to the great benefit, of course, of a large number of developing nations. It would clearly not be right for such news to be conveyed, if it is conveyed at all, to these peoples by French or by other non-British media. I would ask the Government to consider this argument very carefully.
Anyhow, my Lords, for all these reasons, we can only hope that, when and if a proposal to cut the Overseas Services of the BBC comes before the other place, a sufficient number of Members will be found who will vote in accordance with their beliefs, and not just troop into the Lobbies to silence, or at least partially to throttle, the chief voice of freedom in a dangerous and increasingly totalitarian world. Even if they do not, and even if the Government (as is quite likely, I think) evade the issue in some way which is open to them, it is surely possible that the crippling of the Overseas Services will not find, to say the least, very much support here in your Lordships' House. We are, after all, my Lords, no longer under imminent sentence of death if we occasionally vote in accordance with our convictions, and the Government really should not think that they can get away with anything here, however demonstrably counter-productive.
Even if for technical reasons we could not actually prevent the cuts being made by the Government—that is, if the Government finally insisted on them—we could at least organise a pretty formidable protest which might even, I suggest, influence votes in a good many of the constituencies of this country, and that is something of which the Government might well take note. It will be seen that I look forward with interest, if with little immediate hope, to what the Minister responsible is going to say this evening in answer to Lord Buxton's Question.
6.55 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of GUILDFORD: My Lords, I am assuming that tonight the pressing of this Question is not set in the context of economies made in general throughout our country. I would feel I needed to reserve my position in that. I assume that what we are talking
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about is the much more narrow question of pressing upon the Foreign Office that they should reconsider the relative work of the BBC Overseas Service in comparison with the total cost of presenting British interests overseas. I am not going to speak about the details of the problems which have been presented to the BBC by the cuts proposed, although the papers which I have read and the people I have consulted have left me in no doubt that the cuts proposed would seriously cripple the Overseas Service. Nor am I speaking about religious programmes in particular, though perhaps I could say that I regard them very highly and, in particular, the efforts made recently to take notice of religions and world views besides our own.
What I want to do is to draw attention to two general points which I hope the Government will take into consideration when seeking to answer the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Buxton. The first is that I hope the Government will recognise the effectiveness of broadcasting in reaching a much wider range of people than the Diplomatic Service can, however energetic or hardworking the staff of embassies and cultural centres may be. I spent a good deal of my working life in Africa and the Middle East, much of it in a very isolated part, and I recall only one visit by a member of the ambassador's staff in the country concerned during the seven years that I was working in that part of the country. But the radio was a constant accompaniment of everyday life. In fact, for one period I began every morning at six o'clock by doing the five-minute physical exercises in tune with what was being broadcast by the World Service. More seriously, in the crises which affected our lives we turned to the BBC Overseas Service to gain a real understanding of the position and to draw some sense of security by recognising that what was going on around us was known to people elsewhere in the world and had been assessed by them.
A trivial incident which took place soon after I moved to Guildford made this point very clear to me. We had in the diocese a priest who was then head of religious broadcasting in the Overseas Service. I wanted to meet him, but I was unable to do so until I had been in

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Guildford for perhaps a year. Then, at the cathedral one night, by chance, I made his acquaintance. I made my apology to him, that I had not met him before, and explained that I had 160 parishes to look after and it was difficult for me to get to know all the clergy in the diocese very quickly. He replied to me, "Bishop, I do understand. I number my parish in millions". I was very envious of him. I realised that, through his work on the Overseas Service, he had the privilege of intimate conversation, through the radio, through the loudspeaker, with millions of people in the homes in which they lived, and that those people were people with whom our embassies and other institutions abroad would probably make little contact.
In these days, when radios are available in such quantity and so cheaply, the broadcasts of the Overseas Service are listened to in villages and small towns, in the fields and in people's cars, by all manner of ordinary people who would have no other way of contact with the British point of view or with British interests.
I believe that it is of the utmost importance that we speak to these people in the way in which the Overseas Service has done. This is why the specialised language broadcasts which are threatened by the proposed cuts are of particular importance. Of course, we want to represent British interests to the top people in countries where our embassies, trade missions and British Council institutions are; but the circle of people that they can touch is very limited and the radio is a most effective and yet at the same time very cheap way of presenting British people to the ordinary people in the countries across the world. I hope that the Government will bear this aspect in mind in assessing the relative worth of our Overseas Service in comparison with the whole cost of representing our interests abroad.
Finally, my Lords, the second point is a much more general point. I believe that the major question facing us today, as noble Lords are well aware, is that of achieving a harmonious world community in which every different nation, every different race, has a part to play and a share in the prosperity of the whole. It is the communications explosion which
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has played a very large part in making our world one neighbourhood. I believe that it is of tremendous importance in that one neighbourhood of the world that the particular contribution made by the BBC Overseas Service should be maintained at as high a strength as possible. Its responsible news broadcasts, its dissemination of worthwhile information and, above all, its presentation of democracy at work day in and day out in all the ups and downs of political life is a most valuable, and, as it were, clear presentation of a way of life that we ought to offer to people not only behind the Iron Curtain but in the turbulent Africa of our day which is going to have such great importance in decades yet to come. So, my Lords, I would simply ask the Government whether they have considered how worth-while an investment it is to make the broadcasts that the Overseas Service gives in the world community of our time.
7.3 p.m.
Lord WEIDENFELD: My Lords, the received wisdom of political life that doctrinaires in Opposition frequently turn pragmatists in office seems to have been strikingly enriched by a new twist; for here, under our eyes, we see a party which, taking pride in its empirical and commonsense approach while on the road to power, once there begets a government tempted by doctrine—the doctrine of indiscriminate curtailment of public expenditure. How else can we explain the wisdom of cutting, and, as, I think, crippling, the External Services of the BBC? For this is bound to be the effect of the intended Budget cuts which, for a saving of 10 per cent., would reduce broadcasting time by between 20 and 25 per cent. and endanger the whole overhead structure, quality, in some cases audibility and continued availability of wavelengths and ultimately the efficacy of what will remain.
Moreover, these cuts fly in the face of the Government's avowed, and I think seriously meant, pledges and claims, to aid the economic recovery and export potential of this country and to stiffen and strengthen its defence posture within the Western Alliance. There is no doubt that the BBC's External Services are an important and powerful sales aid to British industry. Approximately 60 hours each week of BBC transmissions going

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abroad are concerned with promoting exports directly or indirectly. This is just under 10 per cent. of all external broadcasting in a total of 39 languages. Twenty-five of these 60 hours consist of direct promotion of British products and over 30 hours deal with invisibles; that is, research, the facilities of the City of London, consultancies, and tourism.
In projecting the British and Western way of life to the disenfranchised listeners of the Communist world or to citizens of repressive régimes elsewhere, the BBC has always been a powerful arm of democratic defence. Its role for instance, in the Portuguese revolution was of outstanding importance. Its reports on the tumoil in Africa, Lebanon and Central America have been landmarks of responsible and courageous news gathering and commentary.
It is, or course, true that the Government directive through the Foreign Office to the BBC asked for the retention of the World English Service and of the programmes to the Arab and Communist worlds; but their retention within a drastically cut budget will cause such havoc in the structure of the service as a whole that the end result may well be grossly damaging to the whole service. In fact, the three optional "packages" which the Corporation has put forward by way of illustrating how the residual services would work, are all Pandora boxes, each creating invidious problems of their own.
Take Package One, for instance, which would involve the closing down of all vernacular services to Western and Southern Europe and Latin America: German to the DDR as well as to the Federal Republic, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Turkish and Finnish. Thus, our friends and neighbours in Europe would be entirely cut out. This is absurd as well as dangerous. In normal times, political, economic, and cultural programmes serve clearly-defined and useful purposes by ensuring continuity of contact. In times of crisis, the voice of Britain is even more relevant.
Package Number Two would, with one magisterial sweep, eliminate our broadcasting to the Indian subcontinent, Iran, Burma, the whole of Southeast Asia and the Far East as well as Black Africa. The third
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package would involve the whole of Western and Southern Europe plus the Arabic Service. And none of these, faulty as they may be, would achieve the total saving required; so that more, fresh, savings would have to be found elsewhere.
One of the paradoxes is that if we were to remove all broadcasting to Europe west of the Communist world we would only pinpoint the political warfare character of the remaining services to Eastern Europe. Both the man in the street and the authorities in those countries would feel themselves targetted, singled out for special attention, while today they can hear for themselves that BBC news and comment is universal and neither angled nor targetted in a narrow, propagandist way.
In fact, these cuts are the sort of recommendations proposed by the ill-fated Berrill Report which was so overwhelmingly rejected by opinion formers and the public alike some 12 or 18 months ago, and it is not without irony that the party that helped to bury Berrill now wishes to exhume him.
My Lords, previous speakers in this debate, and, I feel quite sure, those who follow me, are nearly unanimous on the great achievements, past and present of the External Services, It is no secret that representations on the highest level have been made in the United States and Western Europe to Her Majesty's Government to desist from these short-sighted cuts. Many noble Lords may have seen editorials in the Herald Tribune emanating both from the Washington Post and the New York Times, explicitly appealing to the British Government to keep the BBC's external programmes intact. I think that a Conservative Government should be especially mindful of tradition and continuity in recalling the record of the BBC's External Services. There is no need to dwell nostalgically on the past only; no need to go back either to the Bronze Age of British Broadcasting under John Reith and Stephen Tallents or to the Heroic Age of William Haley and Noel Newsome. The immediate past and the present are just as creditable.
I would urge the Government to desist from carrying out these cuts and to let the Corporation carry on. It is for the Government to explore where the money can be found. Perhaps it can be found in

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Whitehall, and the departments concerned with overseas trade and tourism could surely dig into their pouches. Defence expenditure, which the Prime Minister has pledged to maintain and expand, should include contributions to the spreading of the democratic message in the Communist sphere. Already the Defence Department pays, if I understand rightly, one-fifth of the expenditure of the BBC's monitoring service, an invaluable source of reliable reference which should on no account be diminished in scale. To the argument that money is wanted everywhere else at the same time in Whitehall I submit that sometimes, given a sense of perspective and priority, it is quite justifiable to rob Peter in order to pay Paul.
My Lords, in sum, external broadcasting is an essential public and national service, and only as a last and desperate result should it be considered, if all else fails, to explore how the private sector, industry and trade might possibly share part of the burden. There are plenty of examples: Some of our cultural institutions, for instance, are kept afloat by a judicious mixture of grants from the Exchequer and private contributions. Our great industrialists and traders have every reason to help keep the BBC's External Services healthily alive. The Economist has recently even dared to say a cautious word in favour of institutional advertising (although this may perhaps be anathema to the hierarchs of Portland Place).
But I believe that, all in all, the best, indeed the only just solution, would be for the Government to pause, reflect and withdraw their request for cuts, and to allow the BBC to continue to project an image of Britain and her people, their quality of life, their achievements and grave challenges, in a manner which is essentially truthful and, on balance, truly admirable.
7.12 p.m.
Lord CHALFONT: My Lords, I am reluctant to believe that it is a reflection of our priorities that a House that was so full and attentive during a debate on laboratory animals should become so relatively empty for the Unstarred Question of the noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa. I personally am extremely grateful to him for raising this Question this even
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ing and doing so in such an impressive and moving way.
I understand from certain news reports this morning that we may be pushing at an open door. I have been unable to confirm these reports. In the absence of any reliable newspaper of record—a situation which I hope will be remedied on 13th November—I can only conclude that possibly we still have a problem with which to confront Her Majesty's Government. The basic arguments in this case have already been eloquently deployed: the political arguments by the noble Lords, Lord Buxton of Alsa and Lord Gladwyn; the more technical ones from the depth of his experience by the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld; and the moral arguments by the right reverend Prelate. We have heard—and heard it put cogently—about the need for a British viewpoint to be expressed around the world in a way in which the BBC Overseas Service so eloquently does it at the moment. We have heard about the need for the continuation of impartial sources of news and information. We have heard also about the irreversible nature of these cuts. If they are made in the way in which it is at present proposed, they cannot be reversed. There are many powerful reasons why this is an irreversible trend.
Having accepted all those arguments and expressed my total endorsement of them, I want to bring up one rather special point in this debate. It goes back to something that the noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa, said about the information battle that goes on in the world. It seems to me ironic and tragic that, at a time when we in this country are proposing to cut the volume and quality of our overseas information service, Radio Moscow should be developing one of the best and most effective world broadcasting services on the air at the moment in English and in the vernacular language.
In my own experience—and I travel a good deal around the world and carry with me a specially equipped radio set—it is already easier in most places in the world to listen to Radio Moscow doing its World Service broadcasting in English on what they call a five by five transmission service—in other words, a perfectly clear atmospherics-free transmission service—than it is to receive the BBC.

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Radio Moscow's World Service is now broadcasting a virtually 24-hour service around the world in English. Some 19 hours a day come from Radio Moscow World Service—RMWS. Part of that is provided by a station called Radio Peace and Progress which, coincidentally, uses the Radio Moscow transmitters.
That leaves a gap of five hours in the day from 11 o'clock at night until 4 o'clock in the morning. That gap is now being filled by Radio Moscow broadcasts, also in English, to the North African subcontinent. As I say, this means that Radio Moscow is now broadcasting 24 hours a day in English—I am speaking only about their English service broadcasts at the moment. On the 27th July, in a broadcast on the Radio Moscow World Service, the presenter of the programme conceded that the whole of this new Radio Moscow World Service was patterned upon the BBC World Service. He said they now had a happy balance—those were his words—between news, comment and features. He went on to say in that light, ironic way that Russian announcers have: "Perhaps listeners might find some outward resemblance to the BBC World Service". It is not an outward resemblance, it is practically a carbon copy of the BBC World Service. There is a news bulletin every hour; not on the hour because that is when the BBC puts out its service, but at ten minutes past every hour, after the BBC has put out its news service. This is followed by features: "Twenty-four Hours", "The World Today". The names are even the same as those of the BBC World Service. Then there is half an hour of music designed to keep the listeners' attention until the next cycle begins. It is exactly upon the pattern of the extremely successful service that the BBC has been putting out for so many years.
There is now a listeners' letters programme that goes from Radio Moscow in English beamed directly on Great Britain and Ireland. It has a staff—this is information from Radio Moscow, not from me—of several thousand people and it receives 300,000 letters a year from the area to which it is beamed. The conclusion to all this is that we are now being confronted by the Soviet Union for the first time in a systematic and organised way in the information field. It seems to
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me that it will be disastrous at this stage to impose any cuts at all upon what is without any doubt the best broadcasting service in the world. I am not speaking now of our domestic services, about which I have certain modest reservations. I am speaking of the World Service of the BBC, which I say without fear of any contradiction is quite simply the best broadcasting service in the world.
These cuts are not marginal. One cannot say: "We will make a 10 per cent. cut" and imagine that is going to be 10 per cent. of every programme, 10 per cent. of every hour or 10 per cent. of every service. It is a radical cut and an irreversible cut, as the noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa, has said. It is being proposed at a time when the Soviet Union—at least a potential enemy; I do not think that anyone would argue with that characterisation—is beginning to realise the vital importance of influencing world opinion through its broadcasting. Field Marshal Templer, who was my commander-in-chief in Malaya when I was a soldier, coined a phrase—
"Winning the hearts and minds of the people".
That, he said, was the only way in which we would win the battle against the Communists in Malaya. It was the way that we won it. I believe we are now in danger of losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the people of the Third World, and of the people of the world as a whole.
I recognise, as I think everyone in your Lordships' House will recognise, the need for cuts in public expenditure. Perhaps not everyone would agree with that basic premise, but if we were proceeding from it I believe, as the noble Lord, Lord Buxton, said in his moving speech, that it is important not to make cuts across the board and not to extend those cuts, for example, into areas which might affect our national security and survival. I shall not talk this evening about the defence budget because it is not immediately relevant to this debate, but I would say, and say with the utmost seriousness, that part of our defence and our apparatus of survival and part of the way of pushing back the forces of darkness in the world is the spreading of information, impartial information, objective comment and a clear, unequivocal endorsement of our way of life.

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Are we really, seriously, for the sake of an "across the board" cut in public spending, going to destroy that? If we are, then as Ernie Bevin once said in his inimitable way:
"Once you open that Pandora's box, you never know what Trojan horse is going to come out".
The BBC World Service, my Lords, is the only service in the world capable of discharging this task. "The Voice of America", technically brilliant, cannot do it. They are identified with a certain kind of political prejudice in the minds of people who listen; and that identification does not occur in the case of the BBC.
I want to conclude by coming back to my point about Radio Moscow. The Radio Moscow World Service—and note that even the name is a copy of our own—is now becoming required listening all over the world. I spoke earlier about its efforts in the English language. Perhaps we ought also to remember that it broadcasts in over 80 languages and dialects for a total of more than 2,000 hours every week. Of those, about 270 hours are, as I have said, in English. This comprises—and I repeat it because I think it needs repeating—a round-the-clock service in the English language, beamed to this country and to all the other countries in the world where there are English-speaking people. I think we are in danger of being confronted now not only with a predominant and overwhelming military apparatus by the Soviet Union but with a superior information and communication apparatus as well. I believe very seriously that we should not at this stage be cutting what the noble Lord, Lord Buxton, has rightly called "our finest export".
I trust I shall not introduce too abrasive a final note into what has been up to now a reasonably constructive and well-mannered debate, but I trust that Her Majesty's Government will not take this matter lightly. This is a matter at least as important, in my opinion, as those matters with which the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is dealing perhaps elsewhere at this moment. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, has said that this is a matter which might even go outside Parliament. It might even be a question of appealing to the common sense and to the deeply-held opinions of the people of this country about the role of this nation in the world.
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I should like to come back to the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Buxton. He asks Her Majesty's Government
"Whether they will ensure that …there will be no curtailment of the BBC's overseas broadcasting services…".
That is a fairly unequivocal question, and I hope that the noble Lord, when he answers it on behalf of the Government, will be able to say that there will no such curtailment. I would conclude my remarks simply by saying that, if he does not, I hope that Her Majesty's Government will not believe they have heard the end of this matter.
7.26 p.m.
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, already in this debate, opened so strongly and so vigorously by the noble Lord, Lord Buxton, there has been a severe condemnation of the proposal to make cuts of the order of which we have read. We have no firm indication of what has been planned, but I should be surprised if there had not been a spreading of some "guidance" or some information which gave quite accurately the indications that we have read in the Press. We cannot help remembering that almost exactly two years ago we were discussing the proposals of the Think Tank, and your Lordships will remember that the underlying principle was that the best form of persuasion was economic success and, if you were not being economically successful, then cut down the persuasive effort.
In a debate in this House, that policy was destroyed, as indeed it was elsewhere. It was destroyed, and in that debate a great deal was said on all sides of the House about the immense value of the BBC's overseas services. And now, I am making the assumption that the proposal was to reduce the expenditure on the Overseas Services by 10 per cent., or some £4 million. I hope it will be denied and I hope we shall be told that this is entirely false and there is nothing in it. So I am going to speak on that assumption. Now the proposal is to do in one fell swoop what in fact the Think Tank proposed to do over a number of years. It is a more severe proposal than that which was put forward by the Think Tank. At least they put forward some arguments, even though we destroyed them. As yet we have heard no arguments,

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apart from the general one of economy in public expenditure, put forward in support.
I wonder whether I might just try to quantify what the proposals for the saving of £4 million might mean. As others have done, I assume that we are well informed and that the World Service in England will remain. I assume there will be other services; for example, those to Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Thirdly, I assume with some irony that it would be an odd change of policy if our voice were to be silenced in the oil-rich States of Arabia. On those assumptions, what could this amount to? Staff would have to go—some hundreds of staff would have to go—-and so would the services in which they work. The choice will be Latin America, Iran and, as others have said, the Indian subcontinent, South-East Asia, the Far East and Africa—any one or all of them. In these areas the services in their own languages will go, but the World Service in English cannot replace services in the countries to which the broadcasts are directed. After all, if you take the population of India, only 2 per cent. speak English and some of them not very well. Nine out of 10 of the BBC's audience in Northern India listen to the BBC in the vernacular. So let no one pretend that the preservation of the World Service will do much to reduce the impact in many parts of the world. Even where English is the second language, broadcasting in their own language is far more effective.
If the service is cut by 10 per cent., then it is likely on my calculation that services in 12 to 16 languages will have to go. Even half of that cut would mean serious damage. The possibilities are no broadcasting in German to East or West Germany, Austria or Switzerland; no French to French-speaking Africa or Metropolitan France; no Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Turkish, or Finnish; no broadcasts in Portuguese to Brazil or in Spanish to Central or South America. That is the size of it, even though there are choices within that range. Money can be dredged by cutting services to the Commonwealth or the Third World. Losing the only three vernacular languages in which the BBC broadcast, the cuts would extend to
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broadcasts in Persian, Bengali, Tamil, Malay, Indonesian, Thai, Vietnamese, Hindi, Urdu, Japanese, Burmese and Chinese. This is the scope of the reduction which is likely to follow a cut of 10 per cent. in the BBC's grant, or £4 million.
That is what we are talking about, two years after the debate in which we condemned cuts that were to be imposed more slowly and for another reason. It really is astonishing how frequently this comes up. Surely the Government realise the immense value to the country's reputation of these unbiased and objective broadcasts. It is their very existence, as well as their informative and educative effort and the reputation for objectivity, which is part of this country's good name overseas; and it is their professionalism, reliability and comprehensiveness which have ensured this international significance.
I would repeat the point made plain by the noble Lord, Lord Buxton. Broadcasting cannot be turned off like a tap. You cannot turn it off and then turn it on again. If you stop a language service, the audience goes to a less desirable, less amiable service, to put it mildly. The staff disperses, the frequencies are usurped, pinched, borrowed and occupied by other countries. You cannot stop one month and restore the service the next. That is absolutely clear and undeniable. If you cut a service, you no longer have a BBC time, place or wavelength on which to build a larger audience when you want it at a time of crisis. It is finished and over and done with.
I shall say no more, because so many valuable contributions are being made covering the same ground, but I must just say this. Broadcasting is an aspect of a nation's own view of itself. That is what external broadcasting is. Surely the Briton of today, however difficult the time, has not so small a conceit of himself that he prefers silence, abdication and the triumph of untruth—for that is what has been demonstrated by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. I would urge the Government to think again.
I saw a good deal of this service until seven years ago. I have no reason to advocate it, to speak for it, except the recollection of its own magnificence. It really is a tremendously important part of the presentation of Britain overseas. There is a capacity to make democracy

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work. There is a serenity—it is difficult to find the words—and there are qualities in this country which are admired throughout the world, although we do our best by our own troubles and our own self-criticism to destroy the image. It would be a tragedy if this damage were done to our Overseas Services and to our country—for that is what is involved—in many parts of the world, and to their image of us, for £4 million.
I hope that the Government's spokesman tonight will confirm that what we read in the Daily Telegraph yesterday was a quiet hint of an impending reversal of view, although it could possibly have been one of those comforting little noises which have no more meaning than to gain a day or two. The Government will go up in our estimation if, having looked at this subject and having heard the arguments expressed, they decide that these cuts are not for us to make. We cannot afford to make them.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him whether it would be not only a tragedy but a disgrace?
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, we must each choose our own words. I have been trying to be a good boy tonight and not use unseemly words, but I would not demur at the suggestion that the word "disgrace" would not be inappropriate.
7.38 p.m.
Lord MORRIS: My Lords, I have often thought that the conduct of a nation's foreign affairs—surely, the most subtle of all the governmental arts—might be likened to a highly sophisticated, high fidelity sound reproduction system, in that its performance can only match the quality of its weakest component. It is a waste of time and money to match inferior speakers or a cheap pick-up head to a sophisticated amplifier. The Government of the day can be likened to the owner-operator of the system. They choose, finance, maintain and operate the equipment. The Whitehall apparat can be likened to the amplifier which synthesises the input, attenuates the power and controls the output. It is the information services which can be likened to the speakers, whose quality makes the performance arresting or otherwise.
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If the owner-operator starts poking about with the equipment, there will result wow and flutter, distortion, loss of audibility or, indeed, no sound at all. The sound will lose its fidelity. The audience will lose faith in what they hear—if they hear anything at all. They will go away and, as other noble Lords have said previously, they will never come back. This is precisely what Her Majesty's Government are threatening to do. We should take no heart from what I am sure the Government spokesman will say, "These proposals are minuscule; they will have very little effect", for, as you have heard from other noble Lords they will have a terrifying effect. The analogy which was used in a letter in the Daily Telegraph only today was the "salami effect" of the cheese-paring and the cutting of costs in previous years. This is the final slice that lops off the nub of the salami.
I beg to remind your Lordships that notwithstanding previous years, the BBC put into effect cuts of £390,000 in 1974–75. At the same time, spread over a period of four years, cuts of £1,760,000 were made. In 1976–77, cuts of £288,000 were made. In 1977–78, cuts of £541,000 were suffered. And in 1978–79 the BBC were asked to absorb cuts of £732,000.
Allow me to give your Lordships a concrete example of just one of the effects of these cuts. In the case of the Latin-American service, every single one of the supporting services has been completely eliminated. The publicity, the promotional services, the travel services and the research back-up just do not exist any more. Only direct broadcasting costs remain. The BBC have not got one office in the whole of Latin-America—not one. They used to, but it has all gone. How the BBC maintain the standard that they do without these back-up services I cannot understand, yet they are being asked to absorb even more cuts. Meanwhile, the Voice of America has overtaken us in the Latin-American theatre, as have Russia, Germany and the Warsaw Pact countries.
I keep asking myself, as many noble Lords must have done, why the Foreign Office have not cried out in pain, "Enough is enough. Leave this most effective instrument of our foreign relations alone". The only answer that I can see lies in the conflict of interest, in that the

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Foreign Office represents Government speaking to Government, whereas the BBC represents nation speaking to nation, people speaking to people. And, my goodness me! do they not do it better! It appears to me that in full view of the whole world Her Majesty's Government are attempting to throttle themselves and the nation.
With your Lordships' leave, may I quote one short leading article as an example. It is from an Argentinian publication called La Prensa which, believe me, has in the past been in no way friendly towards us. On 10th October they wrote:
"The Argentine republic has been traditionally friendly to the United Kingdom. Aside from certain matters, the long-standing political and economic bonds remain between the River Plate and Britain. They watched the dawn of our independence with favourable understanding. Over the years, among us and also among others of significance, an Anglo-Saxon culture has taken root and extended to literature and public law. Lastly, the economic relations with the hub of the British Empire"—
I like that—
"have been multiple and productive. That and, above all, the community of fundamental political interest should persuade Mrs. Thatcher's government not to sever a magnificent system of radio-communication that is a bond of union between their country and so many on this continent."
Governments may choose not to heed public opinion, if they must, but I beseech Her Majesty's Government to listen with great care to the great men—to one of our most distinguished diplomatists; namely, the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, who wrote in 1973:
"The most effective British activity in the wide realm of information is the Overseas Service of the BBC".
And similarly to the noble Lord, Lord St. Brides, who, in a memorable maiden speech in November 1977, said:
"To my mind, a country which can no longer achieve all its ends by the sheer weight of military and economic power needs to put more, not less, effort into the protection of its interests by other means. Britain's position in the international community has certainly changed since 1945. But the means of maintaining and developing influence in the world have changed, too. They have become less palpable. They require more intellectual and imaginative effort, and less brute force. In the new, much more open, situation which has resulted, we can more than hold our own if we wish, and provided that we continue to manifest a will to excellence and the desire to compete, and if possible to lead, which goes with it".—[Official Report, 23/11/77; col. 885.]
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Above all, however, I beseech the Government to listen to the words, quoted so pertinently by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, of my noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel in that same debate. Big Ben does not toll only at Westminster. It tolls in the hearts and minds of oppressed and muted millions and, indeed, in what is left of the Free World.
I beg Her Majesty's Government not to muffle our nation's future.
7.47 p.m.
Lord HANKEY: My Lords, I want to support a great deal of what has been said in this debate, notably by my noble friends Lord Weidenfeld, Lord Chalfont and Lord Hill of Luton. I shall not repeat the information which they have given but I can certify that it is absolutely valid.
I have much experience of the BBC External Services. For a great many years I travelled as a diplomat, and I have also travelled since my retirement. I, like the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, always carry with me a short wave radio. One can always hear the BBC, literally anywhere in the world, at 8 a.m. local time—generally loud and clear. And there are numerous other broadcasts as well. I can certify that the BBC is very widely listened to abroad, both in English and in local languages, often by distinguished people. For instance, when I was Ambassador in Sweden Mr. Tage Erlander, the very distinguished Prime Minister, listened every morning to the BBC, to my certain knowledge. There are huge audiences in the Middle East and in Africa. I agree entirely with what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford said about that.
The second point I want to make is that an audience, especially one of interest and respect such as the BBC has, really cannot be turned on and off like a tap. My noble friend Lord Hill of Luton made this point, and I want to drive it home. At least you can turn your audience off, but you cannot turn it on again. Once it has gone it has gone. I had a tragic experience of this. When I was Ambassador in Stockholm there was one of these periodical economy drives. They are very necessary, as I know only too well. The Foreign Office decided to abolish the information section of the embassy, and the result was absolutely disastrous—as, I must frankly say, I had

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foretold that it would be. We just could not give the journalists and others all the support that they needed. After a year and a half or so, the Foreign Office changed their mind and sent back a really excellent information secretary. However, it took him a year and a half to get going, and we lost virtually three years of work over this to-ing and fro-ing.
When the Foreign Office sent back the information secretary they decided to suppress the British Council post. The Swedes were immensely upset about this. They took on the running of the British Institute and, frankly, they ran it every hit as well as we did. They supplied English teachers to the whole of the Swedish educational system. It was admirably done, and I think that they still do it that way. In due course, the British Council sent back a very good man, but we had lost an immense number of contacts; and especially we had lost respect and contacts in the universities, the schools and among the intellectuals. So the lesson from that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, so wisely told us, is that we must not go to-ing and fro-ing; we must not chop and change. This is a cardinal British sin. We must have the strength of mind and the character to do things well and jolly well stick to them.
My third point is that any of your Lordships can easily hear for yourselves what the BBC external services are like. You do not need a short wave set. All you have to do on a Saturday morning—and I say Saturday because it is easy; you do not have to go pounding off to the office—is to turn on the medium wave at round about 450 metres and you will hear a truly admirable news service which is much better than the domesticities of Radio 4, giving a balanced account of everything that is happening in the world, followed by a newspaper review, followed by a review of the weekly periodicals which is of fascinating interest. It is a broadcast of real intellectual perspicacity. The BBC are greatly to be commended on the way they do this and if your Lordships listen on Saturday morning I am sure you will share my view.
That brings me to my fourth point. One cannot imagine how valuable and important an objective source of news and balanced common sense and real intellectual perspicacity is overseas in the world we live in. All too often as we travel
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across the world the local presentation of the news is distorted by ideology or propaganda or plain prejudice. I can give a striking personal example. In May 1968 I went to the Soviet Union with a parliamentary delegation, and incidentally with my short wave radio. Every morning at 8.15 I went down to breakfast and gave the other parliamentarians, British and Soviet, the news of the day as presented by the BBC. It happened to be a rather dramatic period. It was the time when there was a student revolt in France, the barricades were up in the Quartier Latin in Paris; there was a general strike with seven million men on strike in France. General de Gaulle had to cut short an official visit to Rumania and come back to control the situation. There were rumours of Soviet troop movements in the south of Poland, near the Czechoslovak frontier, described by an official Polish communiqué from Warsaw as"preparations for summer manoeuvres". The Soviet Prime Minister had talks in Prague, described in an official communiqué issued by Mr. Dubcek's Government. There was a naval incident in the Arctic with an American aircraft carrier and a Soviet pilot who was buzzing it, who missed his foothold—if that is the right term—fell into the sea and was pulled out by the Americans. Not a word of any of this appeared in the Soviet press.
I think it was either in central Siberia or the Caucasus that our extremely kind, courteous and generous Soviet hosts said to me over the breakfast table"Now look here, Lord Hankey, a joke is a joke is a joke. You have really had us on quite long enough. Do admit that it is all fun". I said "Honestly, it is not. Come and listen to my radio tomorrow morning". As a matter of fact, the Soviet Press carried the news the next day and our dear Soviet hosts were horribly embarrassed and indeed dumbfounded to find the extent to which the wool was pulled over their eyes by their own information services. I should like to say that in Eastern Europe there was at that time a great deal of radio jamming but one could always hear the BBC because the Soviet authorities themselves wanted to know what the BBC was saying, so there was always a window and, with a little ingenuity, one could always find it.

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In this case I say, "Well done, the BBC". They did a magnificent job and they are still doing it and have been doing it ever since. In varying degrees it happens all over the world where truth is being suppressed or modified. In a world where truth, mercy and justice—those cardinal Christian virtues—are being undermined; in a world where democracy really has its back to the wall in so many places and where the moral and political ideals to which we are firmly attached need constant restatement and emphasis; in this world where our whole liberal civilisation and all our human rights are now at risk ; how vital it is, not only to Britain but to Europe and America and all our friends in every continent, to give the news objectively and to say fearlessly what we think and believe day by day across the wireless waves to the whole world in the excellent world language which is our marvellous heritage and also in the languages locally used. I beg the Government to take my heartfelt plea seriously and so far as possible to keep the BBC External Services going, on at least their present scale, and above all to hold on to our well chosen wavelengths and maintain the power of the transmitters.
7.58 p.m.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, as it were, he referred to the "Weekly World" on the Overseas Service: Why can we not get it here? We get "News Stand" at five minutes to 10, but that is not half so good. However, that is by the way. Something that my noble friend Lord Buxton of Alsa said towards the end of his excellent speech reminded me that I received a letter over the weekend from the "boy" who was in my service for nearly 30 years. I would remind your Lordships that "boy" is a corruption of "Bhai" meaning brother. I think that is not generally appreciated. This dear friend of mine and my family, now, alas! quite blind in his home in Gujarat, where he has a first-class radio set, in his letter dictated to a letter writer, said:
"I am listening daily to the radio and sometimes I hear of your Scotland".
I think that is very nice of him; presumably of course in the vernacular, and as the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, pointed
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out these vernacular broadcasts are of great importance in this vital service.
However, this is a trivial matter compared with what the noble Lords, Lord Buxton of Alsa, Lord Chalfont, Lord Hankey, and all the "big guns with whom I am mixed up at this moment, have been saying. Nevertheless, the item is a little window on the dangerous world in which we live. The Prime Minister has done the right thing in drawing attention to the menace of Russian superiority in men and weaponry. The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, has said it better than I could and so I shall not develop the point, but I should have liked him to go further. He said, "No cuts". Of course, but if we cannot match the weaponry, why can we not match the weapons of the sound waves by increasing the advantage which the BBC service—thank goodness!—still holds and has worked at for so long? It is not that we cannot afford to: my Lords, we cannot afford not to.
8 p.m.
Lord AUCKLAND: My Lords, this is a most opportune time to discuss the problems facing the BBC's Overseas Services, particularly in the light of the substantial cuts which Her Majesty's Government are being forced to make in many areas and which the vast majority of responsible people regard as being a necessary evil. But, my Lords, there must be some discernment as to where these cuts are to take place. In recent years this country has been the butt of some scurrilous denigration, much of it within our own shores, but some of it, alas!, from overseas, and some of it from sources overseas where one would least expect it. How better to counteract this kind of problem than not to cut but to strengthen our Overseas Broadcasting Services? In times of difficulty the thing that really matters is communication. Communication between countries is the linchpin of the democratic way of life, revealing credit where it is due—and this is revealed all too infrequently now—and debit where it is due, which is sometimes overdone.
I want to refer briefly in the major part of my speech to one country, a country I happen to have been to, and that country is Finland. Finland has been mentioned in the course of this debate, and I believe that Finland has a special qualification to

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get a particular mention. If one looks back in history a few years, if it had not been for Field Marshal Mannerheim and his insistence on keeping Finnish troops on Finnish soil after the last war the odds are that Finland would have gone the same way as, alas, Czechoslovakia has so tragically gone. I have only visited Finland once, on a Parliamentary delegation some ten years ago, but I keep in very close contact with that country, with people in business, in the diplomatic service, in the arts and in many walks of life, and also with a number of Finnish people in this country.
The voice of Finland is broadcast alone by the BBC. America and Germany do not broadcast in Finnish. Some 225,000 Finns listen regularly to the BBC. What would happen if the Finnish transmissions were cut out? It would mean that Russia and Poland would get a virtual monopoly. One only has to look at a map to see that Finland lives very much in the shadow of the Soviet Union. If you go, as I did, north to Tornio and to Rovaniemi, you are within about 30 miles of the Estonian border. It is absolutely vital that we keep contact with a country which fought the Russians very bravely in 1939, which had much of its northern country, particularly Finnish Lapland, razed by the Germans, which had to pay enormous reparations to Soviet Russia, but which today nevertheless manages, despite inflation, to maintain a relatively strong economy.
A short time ago, the BBC television service put out a series of programmes. I think it was entitled "Under the Russian Bear" or some such title, and one country chosen was Finland. I presume that the gentleman who presented this programme had been to Finland recently. I must admit that I only saw the last few moments of the programme, but I read the extracts very carefully in that admirable journal, The Listener. The programme, which seemed to depict Finland as a country which no tourist could visit without being followed and other such sinister manifestations, bore absolutely no relation to what I saw and to what a number of people who I know have been to Finland have seen in recent years. One can move about quite freely. English is the second language in the schools. There is a considerable exchange of tourists, although not enough British people go to
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Finland, largely because it is expensive. There is every opportunity for very much more communication between these two countries, but only if the broadcasting of the Finnish service is maintained, and I think I have said enough in this connection to justify that.
I should like to quote very briefly from a letter written by a Finn only a very short time ago:
"I visited some friends in Estonia last summer. I asked them how often they listened to the BBC and they said many times a week. This seems to be a common practice, at least in Tallin".
which is the capital of Estonia—
"I asked them why they did so, and they said that the Russian news were complete rubbish and the Finnish TV news were very much 'softened' … So, they said, the only source for interesting news were the Finnish news on the BBC. Sometimes these, too, have been jammed. My friends asked in particular to thank you for your news bulletins and for the information you give about the communist countries (defectors, etc.). They also praised your news for their 'freshness'."
My Lords, this country has a trade deficit with Finland. We need to export more to that country, and in what better way could this be at least helped than by ensuring that the Finnish service is not only maintained but strengthened? I submit to the taxpayer that that could be done at relatively little cost. I read the article in the Daily Telegragh this morning. One must wait and see whether it is true. If it is not true then the situation is indeed gloomy.
I turn away from Finland to that, at the moment, very unhappy, very lovely country, Czechoslovakia, which I also visited not very long ago. Many Czech people love this country and have fought for this country, and the BBC could do and is doing much to alleviate the sufferings in Czechoslovakia.
Mention has been made of the Overseas Service of the BBC. I entirely endorse all that has been said about the excellence of its programmes, its news bulletins and the correspondence column which covers many countries. We in this country have much to praise ourselves for as well as much for which we must accept criticism. Even at a time when cuts in public expenditure are necessary, if we were to advertise our own plus points as well as we do our minus points—which is done so effectively by those who work so conscientiously for the Overseas Service of the BBC—the state of this country could gain much.
8.11 p.m.
Lord RITCHIE-CALDER: My Lords, I apologise that my name does not appear on the list of speakers, but I have been out of the country and was not sure whether I would be back in time for this important and critical debate. At least I want to stand up and be counted. The remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, about the relative importance of military and political economies reminded me of how during the war I had a pretty heavy commitment as the Director of Plans and Operations for Political Warfare. We—that is to say myself, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, the noble Lord, Lord Weidenfeld, and many others—were trying to build up what we called rather pretentiously the "Fourth Fighting Arm". That was the political warfare element and an important part of that was the BBC and its Overseas Services.
Apropos what we are saying about the Overseas Service today and what it has been doing over the last 30 years; it is a great tribute to us, the BBC in particular—some of us were trying to manipulate it—that we maintained the total integrity of the BBC. As regards that integrity I vividly remember that I had great battles in which I was fighting something called"the projection of Britain". The "projection of Britain" would nowadays be regarded as the advertising of Britain, the public relations of Britain. I maintained, and I still do, that the most effective propaganda for Britain, the most effective projection of Britain, is to show how Britain behaves—not to show what it is doing, but to show how it behaves. Therefore, the whole of our services—and they have continued to be so—were built up with the power of independence and a scrupulous regard for truth which we insisted on respecting. I am talking again as though we were trying to manipulate the BBC; but we insisted on respecting the total integrity of the BBC in its presentation of facts and also on recognising that what was said critically, often by people from various other countries on their own services, was a very important aspect of our promotion—that is, we were letting them criticise us. We built this up until the end of the war when I insisted that Great Britain had lost a great deal. However, we recognised at the end of the war, as we must recognise now, that the BBC was
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our greatest single asset. We had an authority which we could not have bought. There was no way in which we could have exploited the situation to create the authority that we had, except for the war.
I come back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa. He said that we must not cut the life support systems of these people. We had become the life support system of the resistance movements everywhere in Europe. I insisted then, and I still insist today, that the whole face of Europe was turned West—not to Britain as a self-advertised Britain, but to London which had become the lighthouse, the only beacon in the Western World. They turned to us as a point of reference. The fact that we behaved well in those circumstances was to our credit, but we could have built into that authority a great influence which we could have exercised; but I am afraid in many instances after the war we failed to do so.
Today something still remains. The remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, about the parallel with the military are absolutely indisputable. We used to talk about the BBC as our "grand fleet in being"; we were keeping it intact and not allowing it to disgrace itself, and even if it wanted to do so we would not let it. It was the biggest instrument that we possessed. It was our fleet in being. We should not take our Overseas Service and put the ships into mothballs—if we do so we shall sink them. It is a Scapa Flow: we would be putting them at the bottom of the sea, because as everyone agrees we would not be able to restore them. If we lose the people, we would have no crew. We would have sunk the grand fleet. That is what we are proposing to do. I say to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whom I deeply respect, that I hope he will not go down in history as the man who succeeded in doing what neither Goebbels nor the Russians ever succeeded in doing, namely, shutting the mouth of Britain.
8.18 p.m.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I rise with more than the normal amount of trepidation because I am inserting myself into a debate most of which I have not heard. My only excuse is that I have spent the last hour in the chaos of London

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traffic trying to get here from Euston. I fumed more and more, but all to no avail, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, for saying that he would not add this particular sin of intervening now too heavily to all the other sins which he already, I know, holds against me in a variety of ways.
There is a matter that I should like to raise and which I suspect has not been raised by other speakers. It is a matter about which I feel strongly and, as we have a debate on this subject so rarely, I should not like to lose the opportunity of raising it tonight. I have raised this matter on the radio and I have written about it in newspapers, and I should like to say it to my noble friends here tonight.
We all pay tribute to the Overseas Service of the BBC and in general I have no wish to disagree with my colleagues about that. Certainly that part of it which goes out in English, which is the part that I can hear and understand—in part anyway—when I am travelling about the world, is one that I am always very glad of, proud of and feel pleased that there is such a clear and trustworthy source. However, if that were all there was to it there would be no excuse for my intervention tonight at all. However, I have recently begun to worry a great deal about other parts of the Overseas Service of the BBC—those parts which we do not normally hear and which even if we did we normally would not understand and therefore would take for granted.
Two recent examples have worried me. A similar example occurred when I was Foreign Secretary. While negotiating in Moscow on some delicate matters, I found myself in great difficulties due to the absolute and, as I then thought, rather arrogant refusal by those who were running the Russian service of the BBC to consider the foreign and diplomatic policy of Her Majesty's Government and the negotiations in which I was then engaged, and who, instead, insisted upon exercising their total independence of the Foreign Office and created some considerable difficulty for me. There is a case for telling Ministers that it is time we had an inquiry—it would probably be better done by Parliament than by anybody else—into the way in which the "own-language services", if that is a clear statement, of the Overseas Service of the BBC are being conducted, how
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policy is being made and to what extent, if any, the foreign policy being pursued by Her Majesty's Government at any time is taken into account.
In parenthesis let me say that we must remember that, although we in this House know about the independence of the BBC, it is very difficult to get that clearly understood in countries which themselves have no such independent organisation. They know that the BBC is funded by the Government and they assume that it must therefore be—as it would be in their own countries—a government service. All of us who have travelled must have had the same experience as I have had in trying to explain to foreign statesmen, politicians and newspapers that that is indeed not so. Although I would not have it otherwise, I believe that it is necessary to be quite sure that those who run what perhaps could be called the covert operation of Bush House are in some way democratically responsible—if not to the Government, then to whom?
Let me give the examples of the recent past which I have very much in mind. Last November and again last January I was in Iran, closely in touch with both Her Majesty's Government and with the embassy, but acting as an independent and individual Member of this House and, therefore, disownable by everybody. However, what worried everybody in Iran—the British embassy, British businessmen, Persian journalists and other nationals—was the extent to which they regarded the BBC Parsee service as exceeding all bounds of news or justifiable attitude-striking in its comments. I had transcripts made for me by our embassy and I had transcripts made by Iranian journalists who had been imprisoned by the Shah, and it was evident that not only were we broadcasting from here news of what was happening, but that we were broadcasting calls from, for example, Khomeini in Paris to the people in Teheran to rise and do things, to engage in disorder. There is the disputed question of whether on one occasion they actually broadcast instructions as to how to make Molotov cocktails, but certainly there were calls to go on strike the next day. On my return when I challenged this I was told that it was news because Khomeini had said it in Paris. Then it became news the next day because it had

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happened in Teheran. In all the answers that I received to my protests I was met with a very fanciful and unreal defence.
This is a danger when our own-language service is bound to be operated by emigres and by others who are here because they are opponents of the existing régime. Unless one is very careful, an enormous amount of bias will be injected. It is unlikely that Mr. Gerald Mansell or his acolytes at the BBC actually read Parsee easily enough to be fully up to date day by day with what is being said by these emigre broadcasters. Last November many people still thought that we had a chance to help get some other government in Iran, either with the Shah still there or with him absent, which would certainly have been a much better situation than the one we have at present. However, the overseas Parsee service of the BBC was not only delivering, in the guise of news, anti-Shah and anti-régime propaganda; it went even further and was delivering pro-Khomeini propaganda. There is no dispute that that is what was being done. Not only in my view but in the view of the business community, other journalists and certainly of the British Embassy they had a very great deal of responsibility for building up the Khomeini campaign which has produced the disasters today, which are certainly as bad as the worst under the Shah, and I suspect very much worse.
That worried me in November when there was still a chance to do something else; it worried me when I returned in January at the invitation of everybody who was struggling to do something; I saw it in an even more exaggerated form then. All appeals that they should desist or that they should be much more careful, or that they should listen to the Foreign Office were refused. I know very well that the Foreign Office here, our embassy there and various very distinguished people in this country, to whom appeals were made, made great efforts to persuade everybody from Micheal Swann to Gerald Mansell and other people at Bush House for Heaven's sake to reconsider the depth of the seas into which they were getting.
I have spoken to people about this since, and as I say I have written about it. I might have forgotten it or tucked it away in the back of my mind like my previous
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Moscow experience 10 years ago, except that one night a few months ago I was watching on BBC 2 a broadcast and then there was a rebroadcast of a film on what is called the "Markov affair". This had to do with the death of a Bulgarian refugee who was stabbed with an umbrella point and died rather horribly, poisoned by, it was thought, agents of the régime. The régime in Bulgaria is very different from the régime in Persia. I do not feel any softer about the régime in Bulgaria than about the other—that is for sure and certain. However, I was horrified by what the BBC showed in the film of the Markov affair. They were very proud of themselves because they showed the film twice. They emphasised that Markov was almost certainly murdered because he was broadcasting propaganda against the régime and the leaders of the régime in his native land, and that this had so stunned the leaders of the régime and was having such an effect that they had decided to eliminate him, and had made attempts to eliminate other members of the BBC's staff. But then I stopped, because that worried me as much as the Iranian matter. What business has a Government funded service to be broadcasting propaganda against the régime of a country with which Her Majesty's Government feel it politic to have friendly relations? Who is making the foreign policy of this country?
I got very worried indeed by the Markov account. I think that somebody has to be asked to look at the directions, because all one's attempts to raise it seriously and in an understanding way with the BBC have failed, because they simply say that one is trying to make a case for the Foreign Office. They have a jaundiced view of the Foreign Office, and they do not wish to have any connection with or control by the Foreign Office, which in a way I hear many people say. But in point of fact the desire to be independent of the Foreign Office does not in my view justify running what amounts to a separate foreign policy. Certainly in the case both of Iran, which I know of first-hand, and of Markov, which I know from their own broadcasts, the BBC were running a policy which was not the policy of our diplomats en poste or of the Foreign Office at home.
This brought a comparison to my mind. Some years ago in the 1950s I was intro-

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duced to, and got very interested in, the operations of Radio Free Europe. It operated from Munich with American funds. It again got terribly involved in running covert propaganda operations. That went on right up until recent times when the American Congress, in the aftermath of Watergate, insisted that the funds of Radio Free Europe should be provided by Congress, and that a Select Committee of Congress should satisfy itself about the operations of Radio Free Europe because of the effect that what they had been doing was having on United States' relations with eastern European and other countries.
I express no view as to whether the United States Government's policy or Her Majesty's Government's policy is right about those countries. That is a matter about which we shall argue on another occasion. But I say that until it is changed it is highly dangerous to have a private empire in the bowels of Bush House, employing emigrés, employing refugees from existing régimes, conducting—it is done covertly but it is open in the sense that it can easily be heard—their own covert operations against the régimes with which we chose to have friendly relations.
Whatever may be the Government's answer to this Motion tonight about making some cuts—and I am pretty certain that some cuts can be made, as one can always find room to make cuts in almost any service, and I do not want to support any view that may have been expressed that you can easily think you can transfer the cuts proposed for the Overseas Service to other foreign department services without also doing damage to the other foreign services—I ask them to consider my proposition that the two House of Parliament should be asked to set up a Joint Committee. This could examine what is going on and discover how policy is decided in this part of the Overseas Services, who directs it, to whom he or they are responsible, and whether any changes ought to be made from here on to secure Parliamentary, if not Government, control. I apologise again for intervening on this point.
8.35 p.m.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the
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noble Lord, Lord Buxton of Alsa, for having introduced this Unstarred Question today and for having initiated the debate. It would seem that there has been an astonishing degree of unanimity in the House when it has come to consider what we will think of for the moment as the projected cuts that the Government may have in mind to impose on the BBC External Services. The noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, will perhaps forgive me if I do not deal immediately with the point he raised, but I shall endeavour to refer to it in the course of what I hope will be a short rejoinder this evening.
On the 27th July, in answer to a Parliamentary Question concerning the future of the Overseas Services, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said that there was a review of expenditure. He was pressed in this House as to its possible extent but he declined to commit himself beyond saying, as it was quite proper for him to do, that of course it would be incorporated in the normal way in the Government's statement on public expenditure which—and the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—is expected towards the end of the autumn. This has not discouraged rumour. It has been said, and I have reason to believe, that the Foreign Office at any rate until quite recently has been asked to effect something like £4½ million of savings on the BBC Overseas Service. As I said, we cannot say that these are firm Government proposals yet, but the reports are that cuts of this magnitude are in contemplation. I hope that after listening to the debate this evening the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, who is to reply, may be able to assure us that after giving mature consideration to the whole question these cuts will not in fact take place at all. Or he may be constrained to say that the Government have not yet made up their mind, and will take faithfully into account the views which have been expressed in this debate by the 11 or 12 noble Lords who have spoken.
When we are considering cutting the services, or effecting economics in the Overseas Service of the BBC, what are we really doing? What we are really doing is—and I shall return to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown—cutting down the quantity and spread of information that is going out from these islands to the rest of the world. Sound

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radio has a great advantage over other forms of media expression, because for vast parts of the world television is quite out of the question for the vast majority of people. It is different from the Press—on the assumption that a free Press had full circulation throughout all the populations of the world—because the great mass of humanity, although it can speak and can hear, cannot read. Of course radio, particularly where it is addressed to these millions of people in their own language, is something they can understand, even though they cannot read. What we are in effect considering, therefore, is the possibility that the Government of the day may be taking away the only means that millions of people have of knowing what is happening in the remainder of the world—what is happening in the United Kingdom, in Europe and elsewhere.
I can well understand the views of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, who bearing in mind the time he was a distinguished person in a very distinguished series of offices, might have found independence highly inconvenient to Government. One of the great strengths of the BBC's Overseas Service, whatever errors it might make, is precisely that point; it is not susceptible to governmental pressures or to those pressures that are overtly and ruthlessly exerted in totalitarian States. It is known to be independent and it is known that many politicians—not, I trust, the noble Lord—would like to have it less independent than it is.
It may well be the case, in the broadcasts on the Overseas Services, that where convenient they employ the services of emigrés, and we know that the enunciation of truth can be taken as an attack on the régimes in certain dictator countries. It may be taken, as Lord George-Brown said, as propaganda; there are many in this world to whom all truth is dismissed as propaganda if it is inconvenient to the dictator and the dictator States. Although I would not invite the House—I would not dream of doing so because I am not an expert in these affairs—to accept the BBC Overseas Service as being the last word in perfection, I am reasonably satisfied that a genuine and objective effort is made to convey what they consider to be the truth to the outside world,
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and I would not resist in the slightest any inquiry to determine whether or not that is in fact the case.
We talk from time to time about the necessity for the Free World to match up in terms of armaments, manpower and science to those other countries which live under different systems from ours in the West and which, it is apprehended, present a threat to the Free World. Indeed, the Prime Minister herself recently emphasised the necessity for the West, and in particular the United Kingdom, to play its part in preserving at least parity with the military menace which is apprehended from other sections of the earth. Therefore in the United Kingdom, in spite of all the cuts it has been found necessary to make in all types of social expenditure—with consequences that were adequately dealt with by my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell in the debate yesterday—there has been a deliberate increase in expenditure on defence.
I listened with interest to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. We are currently engaged, when we are not retiring behind our defences and improving them, in a battle for men's minds, and in terms of military defence that battle plays a very significant part indeed. My noble friend Lord Ritchie-Calder referred to the whole question of psychological warfare during the last Great War. The battle for men's minds is the most important thing of all, bearing in mind that out of the 152 nations in the United Nations, only about 30 have the freedom of media expression such as we have in the United Kingdom and in other countries of the West.
In terms of defence alone I cannot understand what has, or may have, got into the mind of Her Majesty's Government, who are passionately addicted to defence. Yet when it comes to this vital part, evidently they are seriously considering mutilating the service, and in exceptional circumstances. I could understand the position on 27th July last when the Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said the matter was under review. But since that time we have had a number of uncovenanted benefits on the credit side of the balance sheet which must have given the Prime Minister rather greater room for manoeuvre than she might otherwise have

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thought. They might even have given the Chancellor of the Exchequer some slight cause for rejoicing.
Noble Lords will recall that on Monday we had the uncovenanted bonus of £14½ million which are to be the savings as the result of the abolition of exchange controls. So there is £14½ million of uncovenanted benefit since these cuts were originally contemplated. Moreover, since then there has become a dawning of the significance of the deficit this county has with the EEC, amounting to some £1,000 million, and, if one reads the Press, the Prime Minister will make every conceivable endeavour to ensure that this country's net liability to the EEC is very considerably reduced. I hope it will be reduced by more than the £4 million or so which is covered ostensibly by these cuts. It would be a poor testimony to the confidence the Government have in the Prime Minister if they were to say that she will not get back more than that.
Of course this country can afford the £4½ million which may be involved here. It is nonsense to suppose otherwise. It is not as though there has been an objective review of the BBC, and apart altogether from any question of asking the BBC to review its own operations, no real coherent reason has been put forward other than the mathematical necessity for making cuts. This is not the technique of Government. This is the technique of the bacon slicer and it is something the country cannot afford to do.
I have said that the Overseas Service of the BBC is a vital factor in the nation's defence. It is also a vital factor in connection with trade. On any one of the three packages that have been put forward as alternatives—and there is the inescapable alternative of the BBC—broadcasts to South America would most certainly suffer in any eventuality. I thought that it was necessary for us to develop our export trade with South America. It is not a very good start to such an operation to cut entirely, or to mutilate, our communications with them.
My Lords, I will not weary your Lordships by repeating the arguments that have been put forward so ably from all parts of the House. It would be invidious to mention names. It may be that at the end of the day the noble
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Lord, Lord Trefgarne, will be able to say that the Government have not committed themselves yet, that they have no real intention of doing anything of the kind, but that they have the intention not only of maintaining the BBC's Overseas Service, but even of increasing it. In that case we should all be very happy to offer the noble Lord our felicitations. But if the Government persist in what must be regarded in any objective language as a completely nonsensical policy, then the verdict ultimately will be as follows. There are cuts in the social services which have been recognised so far as in some cases stupid, in other cases vicious, and in some instances both stupid and vicious. In this particular case if the Government make a decision on the lines feared, they will be completely stupid.
8.52 p.m.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Ferrier referred during the course of his speech to the thought that he was here among the big guns this evening, and I was reminded of an occasion a few months ago when we were in Opposition. I went to South Wales, to a constituency which has hardly ever returned a Conservative MP, certainly not recently. Of course that is why no one more senior was sent. I addressed a gathering of the small number of party faithful who were to be found in that area. When I had finished my speech the local chairman came up to me and said, "Thank you very much for coming. Do you think we could have a Tory big gun next year—perhaps Lord Carrington?" I know that Lord Carrington would have wished to be here tonight but other duties well known to your Lordships have prevented him from doing so, and I must therefore do my best.
If I was in any doubt about the intensity of feeling on this subject when I came into the Chamber this evening, that doubt has been very firmly dispelled by the speeches which we have heard in this debate. My noble friend Lord Buxton of Alsa, to whom we are indebted for initiating this discussion, has put his point of view very clearly, and he has been powerfully and ably supported by very many of your Lordships this evening. I should like to say at the outset that of course the Government agree with all the powerful reasons which have been mentioned tonight in

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support of the BBC's Overseas Service, but it is an unhappy fact of life that in Government we very often have to distinguish between the greater and the lesser evils.
First of all, we have to be quite clear what we are talking about when we refer to the BBC External Services. Unlike the BBC domestic services, which are financed by the licence fee, the External Services are wholly financed by a Government grant carried on the Foreign Office Vote. Although these services are financed by Government, the BBC have full responsibility for their broadcasting operations and are completely independent in determining the content of news, and indeed other programmes. I shall develop that point a little further when I come to the most interesting remarks of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown.
There are many facets to the BBC External Services, some of them highly specialised like the Monitoring Service which provides speedy and accurate reports of significant news and comment from the foreign transmissions in all parts of the world. There is also the commercially successful "English-by-Radio", whose product is in use in about a hundred countries, and the Transcription Services and Topical Tapes which provide recorded programmes to overseas broadcasters. But by far the best known part of the organisation are the World Services in English and the so-called Vernacular Services.
The BBC World Service broadcasts in English for 24 hours each day. It is a complete radio service, providing not only news and every kind of talks programme, but also sport, drama, light entertainment, and music in continuous transmission addressed to all parts of the world. The Vernacular Services (providing broadcasts in more than 30 different languages) do not provide quite such universal coverage, but their broadcasts usually include news bulletins, and topical commentaries of particular interest to the regions to which they are beamed. These services are carried by some 47 transmitters in the United Kingdom and 27 transmitters at relay stations sited around the World.
The context in which this debate is taking place is that of the overriding need
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to keep Government spending to a figure which is commensurate with our resources. It is in this context that the Government have embarked upon a review of all aspects of public expenditure and, as has already been said in both Houses, the BBC as a grant-aided body cannot be excluded from this review. The Foreign Office itself, as has already been announced, has been forced to bear heavy cuts involving 23 posts abroad, besides substantial economies at home, and further staff cuts are still under consideration. Many other Departments are faced with similar painful choices.
For the Foreign Office it has been particularly painful and difficult to contemplate reductions in the Overseas Services of the BBC, for who better than our diplomatic representatives abroad can appreciate the value and quality of the BBC's External Services, both because of their high degree of professionalism and because of the image which they project so successfully of a civilised and democratic Britain?
Since the inception of the public expenditure review, we have had representations, not only in Parliament and in the Press, but from a wide variety of correspondents both at home and abroad, making special pleas for us to deal lightly with the BBC's External Services. The vast majority of these correspondents have emphasised the value of the World Service in English, which all of us at one time or another, I am sure, have had reason to appreciate. Indeed, I understand that it has a large audience in the United Kingdom as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hankey, and others mentioned this. I have a little personal memory of the Overseas Service of the BBC. I was brought up as a boy in Sussex very close to the main transmitter of the World Service, and I remember that the only thing that I could receive on the crystal sets that I connected to my bed springs at night was the Overseas Service of the BBC, usually in Polish, but none the less interesting when you are nine years old and should be asleep anyway.
Let me say that Ministers have not been unmindful of the often eloquent and deeply-felt representations made by people of all political persuasion. We have also taken into account the points of view expressed by the BBC themselves in the

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consultations they have had with Foreign Office officials. As always, it is a question of priorities. As I have said, the BBC broadcasts in English to the whole world, and in more than 30 other languages to particular areas. Each naturally has its own supporters, but each cannot be said to be equally important to our national interest, contrary to what some of the arguments canvassed publicly in recent weeks—and particularly here tonight—would, I think, have us believe.
My noble friend the Foreign Secretary is firmly resolved to minimise the implications for our interests of any economies in the BBC's External Services; but I am sorry to say that such is the overridding general need to find economies that some at least will have to be made. I regret that I am not yet in a position to give financial details, as these, together with the financial details of economies in other Departments, must await the publication of the White Paper. For the same reason, I am unable at this stage to go into specific details about the nature of the economies which will be made. But I am happy to be able to say that the World Service in English will remain intact; audibility will be maintained and, where possible, improved; and vernacular services to developing countries and to those countries which do not enjoy free and open access to news and information will also be largely unaffected. This announcement will, I believe, allay many of the fears which have been expressed tonight.
May I now deal with some of the points raised by noble Lords during this debate. I apologise if I am not able to deal with all of them tonight, but I will, where necessary, undertake to write to noble Lords who have raised matters to which I cannot immediately provide an answer. First of all, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, asked me whether we could not use some of the existing aid monies for supporting the Overseas Services of the BBC. This is a detailed technical matter which I really do not think I am competent to go into at this stage; and, of course, the details will have to be gleaned from the White Paper when it is published in due course.
I was a little puzzled by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton. It indeed followed the general pattern of the speeches on this subject in your Lord-
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ships' House tonight, and one's memory fails over the years, but is it not the case that during a distinguished ministerial career the noble Lord was himself responsible for considering, if not implementing, a good many cuts of a fairly firm nature in the BBC's Overseas Services? I confess that at a distance of 20 years one's memory plays tricks. It may be that I am wrong, and my researches have not been able to go back that far in the short time that I have had available tonight, but I thought that the criticisms that the noble Lord was levelling at us tonight did not lie too well on the shoulders of somebody who, so far as I can recall—and I may be doing the noble Lord a grave injustice—was responsible for some cuts, at least, in years gone by.
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him in order that the record may be put straight? The White Paper to which he refers, which he might have re-read in order to approach accuracy, was published 22 years ago. It moved some strength from one country to another, but it increased the amount of money available to the BBC and the British Council ; and each change during my four years of responsibility for overseas information services revealed an increase, not a decrease. A shifting of resources which involved Scandinavia and Portugal, and those only, plus an increase in the amount of money available to those services, is hardly comparable to the minor massacre to which the noble Lord is now referring.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, if the noble Lord had had such a distinguished record in these matters I am surprised we did not hear more about it when he spoke. The expression "shift of resources" is one which I think I have heard before in other contexts.
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, the noble Lord really must allow me to intervene once more. This debate is about reducing the financial resources to the BBC's Overseas Services. On the occasion to which he refers, and on any other occasion during my four years, the change was one of increased resources, and never one of decreased resources.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I do not deny that for a moment. As the

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noble Lord has said, it was 22 years ago and I would not want to claim accuracy of memory in that matter. But I am still a little puzzled that that splendid record did not appear in the noble Lord's speech. He could have compared it, could he not, so favourably with what he is complaining of from this Dispatch Box?
A good many noble Lords referred to the "crippling" of the service, for which we are apparently responsible at this time. I really think that that is rather over-egging the pudding. It is really not fair. Noble Lords will have heard what I said just now: that, for example, the vernacular services to developing countries and to those countries which do not enjoy free and open access to news and information will also be largely unaffected. That does not sound like "crippling" to me. I think I would also want to reject the expression, which I noted down from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, that we were "sinking the fleet."
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, may I intervene for one moment? I have been following the noble Lord's argument with attention. I understand his argument on this, that there must be some cuts in the overseas programmes of the BBC because everybody is being cut. On the other hand, it is known to all of us, and indeed to the noble Lord, that the defence departments have been exempted altogether from any cuts. If that is so, does he totally reject the argument advanced here tonight by myself and by others, I think, that the overseas programmes of the BBC are, in effect, in the front line of defence of this country?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, that is a sort of philosophical point which I would find it difficult to develop from the Dispatch Box at this time——
Several noble Lords: No, no!
Lord TREFGARNE: ——and I really decline to be drawn along that line. Perhaps I can refer to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. "Of course we can afford £4½ million", he said; "we are adopting the technique of the bacon slicer". My Lords, failure to adopt the technique of the bacon slicer was the characteristic of the previous
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Administration, and look at the mess that they got into!
I cannot hide from your Lordships the regret with which we have decided that some economies must be made in the BBC's Overseas Service. But when we were elected to office last May we accepted as our principal task the need to contain public expenditure, thus controlling inflation and thus, in due course, allowing our economy to prosper and grow. It is for this reason that we are engaged in a public expenditure review, and it is for this reason, and this reason alone, that we must look for economies—happily, fairly modest ones—in the BBC's highly regarded Overseas Services.
Lord CHALFONT: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I return to one point in his very eloquent reply, concerning the apparent decision of the Government not to cut services, as I understood it, to countries which do not have access to free news and information services. Is the noble Lord aware that this is a situation that can change overnight and that this is the great danger of the Government's policies? Countries which today have access to free news and information might not have it tomorrow. Is the noble Lord aware that once the Government have made those cuts there is no restoring them? That is the danger of this kind of policy.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is right that we have to take our decisions in the light of circumstances as we see them today. Although I should like to be able to assure your Lordships that we will change our plans and our broadcasting destinations (if that is the right word) or audiences as the political situation in the countries concerned change, I think I should be wrong to give a commitment to do that now because of the difficulty that that would cause. I failed to deal with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown. Perhaps I can refer to it now. He was concerned, rightly, about difficulties which he experienced—and he gave some of his experiences—with regard to BBC broadcasts which he felt were on some occasions not as helpful as they might be. The Corporation have a duty to take these matters into consideration. I quote from the licence agreement of the

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Corporation with regard to these services:
"The Corporation shall consult and collaborate with the Department so specified"—
which means the Foreign Office—
"and shall obtain and accept from them such information regarding conditions in and the policies of Her Majesty's Government aforesaid towards the countries so prescribed and other countries as will enable the Corporation to plan and prepare its programmes in the external services in the national interest".
I hope that the noble Lord will agree that that is a helpful provision.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I have no complaint that there is no more detail than that on the point that I raised, since my late arrival prevented me from giving the noble Lord any hint of what points I may have raised. When Hansard arrives would he consider the record of what I said? In particular, will he consider with his colleagues whether my plea for a parliamentary inquiry into the way in which these services are controlled might be accepted? Perhaps he and I could have a talk some time.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I shall consider that, but I must confess that I cannot hold out much hope.
Lord HANKEY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to consider a point I made of a slightly more technical type? If the Government are going to abandon
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some of the vernacular language broad-cases, it is important that they should preserve the use of those wavelength channels for the BBC. There is tremendous congestion on the short waves and countries all over the world are trying to steal wavelengths from each other all the time. If ever we want to get back, when the Government (as we hope) have set this country back on its feet, it is important that we should be able to continue to use those channels. If we do not do it in the vernacular, will the Government consider pumping out more English broadcasts on those channels simply so as to go on using them?
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I will consider that but, as I have said, again, without a lot of hope. It might be helpful to refer to the proceedings of the World Administrative Radio Conference which is taking place in Geneva now and at which the Government are represented. The conference is concerned with the general revision of the entire spectrum of frequencies to particular services but is not expected to assign frequencies to individual countries. The United Kngdom are to propose an increased allocation of high-frequency bands to broadcasting which should, we believe, strengthen the position of the BBC's External Services.
House adjourned at twelve minutes past nine o'clock.