Sitting of 28 March 1979

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  IPSWICH PORT AUTHORITY BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.

  GAIRLOCH PIER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Orders for consideration read.
  To be considered tomorrow.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRANSPORT

    National Union of Railwaymen
    Mr. Buchananasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen.
    Mr. O'Halloranasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen.
    Mr. Cowansasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen.
    Mr. Bagierasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen.
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen.
    The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. William Rodgers): Fairly soon.
    Mr. Buchanan: I understand that my right hon. Friend is meeting the general secretary of the National Union of Railwaymen soon. Will he take it from me that most railway men and people engaged in the transport industry are delighted with his announcement today that 700 miles of railway will not be closed? Will he make it clear to the House and to the country that Labour Party policy is not to run down the railways but, bearing in mind the conservation of energy encapsulated in the development of the railways, to encourage their development?
    Mr. Rodgers: I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said. Unfortunately, Mr. Sidney Weighell has not been well for a little while. The House will wish him a speedy recovery from his illness. I shall see him immediately on his return to work, and certainly I shall make plain to him that there is no question of myself

    433
    or any other Minister approving a mini-Beeching, of which there were reports earlier this week.
    Mr. Cowans: When my right hon. Friend meets the general secretary of the NUR, will he take the opportunity to congratulate him on the running of the railways during the recent bad weather? Of the many transport systems that operate in the country, one of the few that was maintained was the railway system. Will my right hon. Friend also take the opportunity to commiserate with him on the deaths of four railway workers who died maintaining the service? Finally, will he take the opportunity to scotch the many rumours circulating about rail fare increases, by confirming that no approach has been made to him?
    Mr. Rodgers: No approach has been made to me by the British Railways Board with a view to a fare increase earlier than January 1980. There will be no question of my approving such an increase at present. Obviously, it is prudent for the Railways Board to review its costs. I am sure that it would be damaging to the railways were there to be such an increase later this year.
    I am sure than the House will share what my hon. Friend said about deaths on the railways. This is still a hazardous occupation for many people. Railway men deserve our fullest support in the problems that they face. I agree, as someone who travels frequently to the north of Britain, that the railways maintain their services magnificently in difficult circumstances, often when other forms of transport have come to a stop.
    Mr. Bagier: When my right hon. Friend meets Mr. Sidney Weighell, will he discuss the good effort made by British Rail to expand travel facilities for old-age pensioners not only in this country but in conjunction with our colleagues in France, Spain and Portugal?
    With regard to the closure of railway lines, does my right hon. Friend agree that subsidies are involved in running these services, and that we cannot run away from this fact? Will he therefore invite the Opposition spokesman on transport to say whether there would be a cutback in public expenditure affecting 700 miles of railways and other services in the unfortunate event of the Conservative Party coming to power?
    Mr. Rodgers: My hon. Friend is quite right in saying that it is only substantial public expenditure which enables the railways to maintain many important services. I want to see the development of these services, rather than any suggestion that they should be cut. I stand precisely by what the Government said in their White Paper "Transport Policy" in the summer of 1977.
    Under the leadership of the chairman of British Rail, to whom I pay tribute, we have seen an intensive and intelligent marketing effort which has increased the number of people travelling on the passenger services and provided advantages to those who otherwise would not be able to afford to travel.
    Mr. Norman Fowler: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Opposition agree with him that there is absolutely no justification for another Beeching round of cuts? Does he accept that we agree with him that everything possible should be done within British Rail to avoid another heavy round of fare increases later this year? In that respect, does he accept that a big wage settlement would have the effect of pushing up fares and pushing passengers off the railways?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am very glad indeed to have the hon. Gentleman's endorsement—which has sometimes been lacking in the past—of the future of the railways. He must accept, as I have done, that we can maintain and improve our railway system on the basis of an intelligent fare system and substantial help from the public purse. There is no other way. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that, obviously, the cost of running the railways must be reflected in the fares. I am sure that that will be borne in mind by everybody whose future lies with the railways.
    Mrs. Knight: When the Minister sees Mr. Weighell, will he ask him to alter the NUR rule book so that willingness to work for the Socialist Party is no longer a condition of employment in British Rail?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am afraid that I would not give such an undertaking. I do not think that it is a proper subject for the Secretary of State to discuss with the general secretary of the NUR. In any case, the hon. Lady's implication is not justified.
    Mr. Roderick: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement on the suggested closure of lines. Will he, in addition to meeting the general secretary of the NUR, meet the chairman of British Rail urgently to impress upon him that we are not in favour of closing any lines whatever?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think that the chairman of British Rail is fully aware, from my most recent conversations with him, of the view that I take about the suggestion that was given publicity earlier this week. There is a later question on the Order Paper about meeting the chairman of British Rail, and I shall refer further to the matter then.
    Mr. John Page: At this meeting, will the Secretary of State be able to give the general secretary of the NUR any idea when the case at Strasbourg about the closed shop in the NUR is likely to be completed? Will the right hon. Gentleman ask Mr. Weighell whether he has any proposals, in the meantime, to change the ruthless application by the union of the closed shop in British Rail?
    Mr. Rodgers: I do not anticipate these subjects being discussed.

    Roads (Maintenance Costs)
    Mr. Nicholas Wintertonasked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he will make a statement on road maintenance costs in view of the severe winter.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. John Horam): Not yet. It is too early to assess the extent of the damage.
    Mr. Winterton: I thank the Under-Secretary of State for that reply, but will he accept that in recent years local authorities have cut back drastically on road maintenance because of public expenditure trimmings? Will he also accept that the Government have cut back on road maintenance? Is he aware that borough engineers believe that it will cost approximately £100 million to put right what has been neglected in the past and exacerbated by the very severe winter, during which the wet and the frost have lifted many of our roads and created dangerous conditions?
    Mr. Horam: Only last Monday my right hon. Friend and I had the benefit
    436
    of a full discussion with the Association of County Councils and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities on this very subject. The whole issue was very thoroughly aired and we gave them various undertakings about the future. In the financial year to come we are increasing by 3 per cent. local authority spending for road maintenance purposes.
    Sir Timothy Kitson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many counties are still clearing snow? Will it be possible to give an assurance that they will be able to make claims for grant assistance after the end of April, which is the date provisionally set, as much of the work in repairing damage created by frost will not be done by then? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore produce a more realistic date?
    Mr. Cryer: Tell him to buy a British car.
    Mr. Horam: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his safe arrival at the House. I hope that there are no problems arising from bad maintenance on the A1 which led to his difficulties.
    The hon. Gentleman has hit on an important point, namely, the 30 April qualification date for the emergency procedures arising from the bad weather this year. My right hon. Friend and I undertook, at the meeting to which I have referred, to discuss this date—which I accept may cause problems—with the Secretary of State for the Environment.
    Mr. Fry: Is the Minister aware that the state of many of our roads is the worst in living memory, and that that is not due just to the recent winter? It is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) said, the result of years of enforced neglect because of the Government's attitude to road maintenance, and I find it—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must ask a question.
    Mr. Fry: May I ask the Minister how he can reconcile his answer to my hon. Friend that he was in no position to estimate the amount of damage with apparently endorsing the idea that the county councils would not be recompensed after the middle of April? He is not leaving them much time either, is he?
    Mr. Horam: I entirely disagree with the hon. Gentleman. As he well knows, the roads are not in the worst state in living memory. We have a very satisfactory road system. On the whole, it has been well maintained. We have, as he knows, working arrangements, which are accepted by the Association of County Councils, for monitoring exactly what happens to the roads. The first three years of these arrangements have shown that there has been no serious deterioration in the condition of the roads over the last two or three years. That is the position shown by the survey carried out by individual county councils up and down the country. We must go on the objective evidence.

    Concessionary Fares
    Mr. George Rodgersasked the Secretary of State for Transport whether copies of the Green Paper on concessionary fares have been circulated to organisations representing retirement pensioners; and what response there has been to the document to date.
    Mr. William Rodgers: The Green Paper has been widely circulated and warmly welcomed. I have asked for detailed comments by 31 May, and these are now being received.
    Mr. George Rodgers: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that the proposals contained in the Green Paper are enormously heartening to pensioners throughout the country, and especially to those who are trapped in Tory-controlled authorities where there are either no schemes for concessionary fares or only mean and paltry schemes? Will he pay particular attention to the views of the National Federation of Old-Age Pensioners, which has a valuable contribution to make in this consultation?
    Mr. William Rodgers: I shall pay particular attention to the views of the national federation and of all those who represent the pensioners, because I think that their views are relevant in making sure that we have an administratively effective scheme. I think that the proposals have been widely welcomed. Not only does it mean that standards will be raised where there are no schemes at present, which I regard as shameful, but that old people will be enabled to
    438
    travel outside the areas in which they live and enjoy the concessionary fares which, if they are fortunate, they enjoy within their own area.
    Mr. McCrindle: Has the welcome been as warm from pensioners in the Greater London area, whose scheme would be likely to deteriorate in comparison with those in areas where no scheme at all has existed?
    Mr. William Rodgers: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. I hope that he has read the Green Paper, because I have made quite plain in that that the national scheme will exist in parallel with and alongside such local schemes as there may now be. Where there is a good local scheme, I want it to be maintained. But even pensioners enjoying a good local scheme will have the benefits of what I have called transferability, to which I have referred, and these concessions will apply on local rail journeys as well.
    Mr. Adley: Will the Secretary of State please accept the principle that the carrier, namely, the municipal companies and the National Bus Company, which account for 80 per cent. of the stage carriage services, should, in the same way as British Rail does, accept that they have a responsibility to provide a universal scheme, not dissimilar to the one the Secretary of State prescribes in his Green Paper, but funded and financed in a similar way to that used by British Rail? Will the Minister accept that what is sauce for the British Rail goose, and works very well, should be sauce for the National Bus Company gander?
    Mr. Rodgers: I do not know how far the hon. Gentleman is making his views strongly known to the Christchurch district council, which so far has had no scheme at all for concessionary fares. In my view, it is the duty of operators, whether British Rail or bus services, to provide such concessions as they can within their own commercial responsibility. Beyond that there is no escape for local district councils from providing a proper concessionary fare scheme.

    Lorry Weights
    Mr. Rhodes Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to increase lorry weights.
    Mr. Williams Rodgers: None, Sir. But, as the House knows, I have been considering whether to set up an independent inquiry to look into the issues raised by the economic and environmental impact of the lorry. I have now decided to do so. I will circulate the terms of reference for the committee in the Official Report.
    Mr. Rhodes James: Is the Minister aware that we are very interested to note that inquiry, particularly the date and the timing that he has chosen? Is he aware that the current proposals of the EEC Commission permit national and local authorities to declare certain routes unsuitable for heavy traffic? Will that come within the ambit of the inquiry that he proposes, and does he realise that this has particular relevance to the constituency which I represent?
    Mr. Rodgers: Yes, I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point. It is for that very reason that I felt it right—I mentioned this in the House on the first occasion as long ago as last November—to set up an independent inquiry to look into all these problems. The lorry has important industrial and economic advantages, but, as the hon. Gentleman implied, it carries with it a severe impact on the environment and many communities. For that reason I believe that a wide-ranging inquiry will be justified.
    Mr. R C. Mitchell: Will my right hon. Friend expand a little on the terms of reference of the inquiry? Will it have power to go into the whole question of the social costs of heavy lorries and who should bear those costs?
    Mr. Rodgers: I would not wish to place any unreasonable restrictions on the area to be covered by the committee. I hope that it will work fast and report within a reasonable period of time, because there are important decisions for Ministers to make. It may well be that the committee will look at precisely the kind of issues that my hon. Friend has raised.
    Mr. Moate: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the statements in the documents that were leaked from his Department suggesting that some civil servants were anxious that there should be an inquiry designed simply to prove
    440
    the case in favour of a heavier lorry? What steps is the Minister taking to ensure the impartiality of this committee? Can he say who he has asked to be the chairman of it?
    Mr. Rodgers: I recall these matters very clearly. The hon. Gentleman asked me a question at that time, to which I replied indicating that my mind was moving in this direction. It will be an independent committee. I cannot at present announce the name of the chairman and members. However, I believe that when the time arrives the House will be reassured by the knowledge that it is a group of people of considerable substance, who will approach this matter in a very open way.
    Mr. Ronald Atkins: May I strongly express enthusiasm for this inquiry, which has been requested by so many? Will those who have requested this inquiry have their views represented in the inquiry by the membership? Secondly, will the committee look especially into all the costs incurred because of the presence of lorries in city centres?
    Mr. Rodgers: As I have said to the House, I do not think that I would wish to restrict the scope of the committee to its terms of reference, which I shall be publishing in Hansard. Plainly, there are many issues to be considered; and I am sure that the committee will wish to take account of them. On the question of receiving representations, I expect that this committee will receive evidence from a wide range of sources and that evidence will be published. Whether the committee sits in private or public will eventually be a matter for it to decide.
    Following are the terms of reference:
    To consider the causes and consequences of the growth in the movement of freight by road and, in particular, of the impact of the lorry on people and their environment; and to report on how best to ensure that future developments serve the public interest.

    Vehicle Excise Duty
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Transport how many individuals have made representations to his Department in favour of the proposal to phase out vehicle excise duty.
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Transport what further representations he has received on the proposed abolition of vehicle excise duty.
    Mr. Horam: About 100 individuals have written in favour of the decision. Questions raised in the consultations, which have now taken place, on timing have included the method of phasing out VED; the computation of the proposed increase in petrol taxation; and the future form of vehicle registration.
    Mr. Knox: Does not this response show how lacking in popularity this proposal is? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the decision to phase out vehicle excise duty will place a heavy burden on rural dwellers, particularly those in the more remote areas? They have no alternative form of transport to the private motor car. Will he reconsider this whole proposal and withdraw it?
    Mr. Horam: All the opinion polling which has taken place has indicated widespread public support for this proposal. On the specific question of rural areas, I refer the hon. Gentleman to the recent research done by the Open University, which pointed out that the claims made by many Opposition Members had been grossly exaggerated.
    Mr. Miller: Has the Minister not been able to understand, from the representations against the proposal, why he and the Secretary of State, in the eyes of road users and those who make, build and sell motor vehicles, as well as those who use petrol engines off the road, on the water or in the air, have come, in the Secretary of State's own words, to regard him as a one-man disaster area?
    Mr. Horam: Our consultations with motor manufacturers have indicated that they would rather we phased out VED more quickly than we are proposing.
    Mr. John Ellis: Will the Minister confirm that it depends on how much is put on petrol if it replaces vehicle excise duty? The question is open to representation. Will he therefore take note that it could have a beneficial effect, or otherwise, on rural dwellers or on anybody? Will he take that into account when he makes the decision, or perhaps point it out to the Treasury?
    Mr. Horam: It will have a beneficial effect, but the question is how large that beneficial effect will be.
    Mr. Stephen Ross: Will the Minister confirm that he has received representations from small boat and light aircraft builders, who both happen to be in my constituency, and that he will consider those representations? If the price of petrol increases as steeply as is envisaged, it will affect those people severely.
    Mr. Horam: I think that the hon. Gentleman has made a fair point. There are problems which arise from the different effect of the proposals on light aircraft and small boat builders. We have received representations which we shall consider very seriously.
    Mr. Norman Fowler: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his current proposals will increase the price of petrol appreciably above £1 per gallon? Secondly, we still do not know what the cost will be of the new registration document that he proposes. Will he at least tell the House today how much the registration document will cost? Without that information the public will place very little value indeed upon his estimates.
    Mr. Horam: I very much hope that we can avoid any charge whatever for the registration document. If we have to make a charge, it will certainly be nominal.
    Mr. John Ellis: Shot down!

    Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre
    Mr. Montgomeryasked the Secretary of State for Transport what has been the cost of the Swansea Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre in each year since its establishment, and what it was originally estimated to cost.
    Mr. Horam: I shall circulate a breakdown of the annual figures in the Official Report. The 1965 estimate of costs over a 10-year period was £95 million. In the event, expenditure at 1965 prices was £145 million.
    Mr. Montgomery: Does the Under-Secretary of State accept that perhaps the centre has not lived up to its high hopes? Does he now admit that it was a mistake to put vehicle licensing on a national basis? In view of all the complaints that

    443
    he must have received from Members of Parliament about the inefficiency of the centre, does he really believe that the taxpayer is getting value for money?
    Mr. Horam: Frankly, that is now history. We must deal with the situation as it is at present. I can tell the House that I am very pleased with the improvements that have taken place over the past 12 months. For example, I am now receiving 40 per cent. fewer inquiries from Members of Parliament.
    Mr. Anderson: Will my hon. Friend confirm that, compared with the estimate which the 1961 Conservative Government accepted for Concorde, the estimates that he has presented are spot on?
    Mr. Horam: That is a fair point.
    Mr. Eldon Griffiths: May I refer the hon. Gentleman to the records of the former LTOs, which are still held at Swansea and Llandaff? Bearing in mind the enormous importance of these records to police detection and the prevention of crime, why did he agree to the destruction of 1,500,000 of those documents a month or so ago, and why is he accepting that 15 million more should be des-

    COST OF DRIVER AND VEHICLE LICENSING

    £ million

    1968–69

    1969–70

    1970–71

    1971–72

    1972–73

    New System costs*

    0·2

    0·3

    0·9

    1·7

    3·7

    Old System costs†

    8·4

    8·2

    9·5

    11·0

    13·0

    Post Office costs…

    1·6

    1·5

    1·8

    1·9

    2·0

    Total costs (actual)

    10·2

    10·0

    12·2

    14·6

    18·7

    Total costs (1965 prices)

    9·0

    8·5

    9·5

    10·4

    12·4

    1973–74

    1974–75

    1975–76

    1976–77

    1977–78

    New System costs*

    7·2

    13·0

    22·7

    30·1

    34·4

    Old System costs†

    14·9

    19·0

    24·4

    20·8

    11·0

    Post Office costs

    3·0

    4·7

    6·2

    8·5

    9·9

    Total costs (actual)

    25·1

    36·7

    53·3

    59·4

    55·3

    Total costs (1965 prices)

    15·5

    19·0

    21·7

    21·8

    17·5

    * These costs increased as licensing was taken onto the centralised system.

    † These costs decreased after 1975 as work was transferred from the local taxation office.

    Railways (Electrification)
    Mr. Stephen Rossasked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he is satisfied with the existing programme for the electrification of the United Kingdom's principal railway lines.
    Mr. William Rodgers: There is no such specific electrification programme at
    444
    troyed, despite the representations of the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Police Federation? Why does he not help the police, and not hinder them, in this important task?
    Mr. Horam: Because it saves taxpayers money.
    Mr. Ford: Will my hon. Friend consider the cost-effectiveness of the Swansea licensing centre? If he finds that it is only marginal, and taking into account the current difficulties with computers, will he reconsider reopening the Bradford licensing office?
    Mr. Horam: If there are any particular problems relating to the Bradford licensing office, I shall look into them if my hon. Friend cares to write to me.
    Mr. Cormack: How much did it cost to license a private motor car before the Swansea centre was opened, and how much does it cost now?
    Mr. Horam: I should like to write to the hon. Gentleman. I do not have the facts immediately available.
    Following are the figures:
    the moment. The case for one is being currently considered.
    Mr. Ross: Does the Secretary of State agree that the huge increases in oil prices that are again taking place call for some urgency in increasing the electrification of our main railway lines? Will he look at the Western Region in particular and say whether he agrees that it is time

    445
    the Government took some decisions to encourage British Rail to get on with further electrification?
    Mr. Rodgers: That is exactly why we have set up this inquiry between my Department and the Railways Board. It is to see what makes best sense. However, in the meantime, I have today been able to authorise an investment of £56 million for new electrical multiple units for the Southern Region of British Rail. I think that this will be widely welcomed by commuters, and I am sure that it will be applauded by hon. Members on both sides of the House who have insisted that more should be done in this direction. I am also glad that it will mean four to five years work for the British Rail workshops at York.
    Mr. Bagier: My right hon. Friend's statement on electrification is welcome. However, does he accept that, from a fuel conservation point of view, it makes sense to extend the electrification of the railways? Will he bear in mind that it is extremely important to keep going the advanced passenger train project, and that it depends on an extension of the electrified circuit?
    Mr. Rodgers: I agree with all that my hon. Friend has said. It is important to look a long way ahead at what the needs of the railways will be and to move into advanced technology. The railways have done very well in this direction. There is a great deal of which to be proud, but we must preserve the momentum.
    Mr. William Clark: Has the right hon. Gentleman any future proposals to help other marginal seats?
    Mr. Rodgers: My responsibility as Secretary of State is to seek to respond to the wishes of the House. If there are Conservative Members who do not agree with my announcement, let them speak up now.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is not electrification one of the very few ways in which the Government—of any kind—can do something practical about saving oil?
    Mr. Rodgers: That is one consideration, but, from his great knowledge of modern technology, I think my hon. Friend knows that a great deal depends upon how one generates one's electricity;
    446
    for example, whether one uses fossil fuel or nuclear power. Those are factors that have to be taken into account in drawing up the equation.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Does the right hon. Gentleman's election announcement extend to providing a situation where Southern Region will actually run regularly and not go on strike frequently?
    Mr. Rodgers: I believe that if the hon. Gentleman reflects rather more generously on what I have said he will appreciate that improved equipment is an important factor not only in guaranteeing services but in improving morale on the railways, and I attach much importance to that.

    M20 Motorway (Saltwood)
    Mr. Costainasked the Secretary of State for Transport if he is now in a position to announce a decision on the bridge over the M20 motorway at Saltwood, the details of which were sent to him in February.
    Mr. Horam: No, Sir, but I am writing shortly to the hon. Gentleman to explain the situation.
    Mr. Costain: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that this work is proceeding at the present time? Will he bear in mind that he was once a candidate in that constituency? Does he realise that he would lose even more votes now if there is not an early decision which will improve the economy of the nation?
    Mr. Horam: I remember that on one occasion I was a candidate for Folkestone and Hythe, when there was the biggest swing to Labour that there has ever been in that constituency. None the less, I failed to win it. I take the hon. Gentleman's point, and I shall be writing to him. It is a complicated situation, but I hope to write to him within the next few days.

    Port of London Authority
    Mr. Temple-Morrisasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to meet the chairman of the Port of London Authority.
    Mr. Waddingtonasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to meet the chairman of the Port of London Authority.
    Mr. William Rodgers: Within the next few weeks.
    Mr. Temple-Morris: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Port of London has been in trouble for some considerable time, and that eventually—in May 1978—the chairman said that the authority was on the verge of bankruptcy? Yet only one year later it is about to announce a loss of no less than £17 million before Government subsidies are taken into consideration. While accepting that there are problems such as demanning, what the authority, the House and the country want to know is the Government's long-term plan for London docks. They cry out to know. At this stage, can the Secretary of State tell us what is the Government's plan?
    Mr. Rodgers: The hon. Gentleman puts his question very fairly, but he minimises the role of the PLA itself under the chairmanship of Sir John Cuckney. I announced last summer some measures which I think are justified on the merits, and I remain in close contact with the board about any further steps which need to be taken. I agree that there is a problem, but it is a social and human as well as industrial one. In those circumstances, the best solution will be found if we take a certain amount of time.
    Mr. Waddington: What progress is being made on the plan to reduce the work force by 1,489 by June?
    Mr. Rodgers: Very good progress. At present, the PLA is broadly on target. I think that there is a full realisation by all those who work in the Port of London that there must be changes in manpower to achieve viability, and viability remains the aim.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: I thank my right hon. Friend for the kind remarks that he made about dealing with the environmental and human problems. Will he bear in mind, as I am sure he will, that these people lived in the worst bombed area of the country during the war, that they have suffered enormously both during and since and that there is now a great problem in the area with regard to environmental, employment and other matters? This is becoming a derelict area. Will he please not cut out jobs just for the sake of cutting them out, especially when the
    448
    lawyers ask for it, because they can pick and choose their own jobs and their own fees? I can assure him that the people in that area will not accept the loss of their jobs without causing a lot of trouble.
    Mr. Rodgers: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right when he says that those who do not know docklands do not fully appreciate the real problems that are faced in the light of the remarkably sharp decline that there has been. This is true not only of London but of Liverpool. We must find a solution which is both a good economic one as well as a social and environmental one.
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for Transport what recent discussions he has had and with whom on the future of the Port of London Authority and the possible writing-off of its debts; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. William Rodgers: I have nothing to add to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) on 13 March.
    Mr. McCrindle: Has the Secretary of State seen the suggestion that in return for a slimming down of the dock labour force the Government will be prepared to write off the cumulative debts of the Port of London Authority? Can he say whether there is any truth in that suggestion and, if so, what sort of slimming down of the labour force he envisages? What would be the total amount of the debts to be written off?
    Mr. Rodgers: No suggestions have been made to me. Even if I believe that that is the right course, I have no powers to take such steps.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: When the Minister considers—I hope favourably—wiping off these debts, will he remember the precedent set by a well-known British company with well-known Tory connections, which was able to fiddle the taxpayer of millions of pounds through overcharging on contracts? All money was wiped off and there was not a murmur from the Tories. Will my right hon. Friend therefore consider wiping off these debts which were not incurred by any illegal act such as that by the great Ferranti organisation?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reminder, which I am sure will be taken fully into. account.

    M42 Motorway (Tamworth)
    Mr. Grocottasked the Secretary of State for Transport what is his latest estimate of the likely completion date of the Tamworth section of the M42.
    Mr. Horam: 1983.
    Mr. Grocott: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he acknowledge the tremendous contribution that Tamworth has made to the housing of people in the West Midlands area? Is he aware that the traffic problems in the town, which he has acknowledged in the past, are a constant source of embarrassment, especially to Labour councillors who built the town in the past, and that it is his responsibility to put them right? Can he give a specific date when the public inquiry will be held, and will it be held in Tamworth?
    Mr. Horam: I am aware of the great effort that Tamworth has made to house people, with very little support from national Government. I think that the inquiry should be held in the autumn of this year and, buildings permitting, we shall make arrangements for a session to be held in Tamworth.

    Road Haulage Industry
    Sir John Langford-Holtasked the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to extend public ownership in the road haulage industry.
    Mr. Rodgers: Probably none, in this Session of Parliament.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: Given that it remains the right hon. Gentleman's policy to bring the transport industry into public ownership, can he give the House any idea of one or perhaps two advantages that would be gained from it?
    Mr. Rodgers: I could give a long list, if the hon. Gentleman was willing to listen. Two would be enough. We are discussing specifically the road haulage industry. I put the matter this way. The National Freight Corporation has, in many ways, been an important pace-setter in an industry that is pretty rough at the edges. I should like to see the National Freight Corporation given every facility to extend its operations to show that road haulage can be industrially efficient, with high standards of social behaviour and good industrial relations.
    Mr. Fry: Does the Secretary of State appreciate that the National Frieght Corporation had the aid of taxpayers' money, which is not available to private industry, in what it has achieved? Will he enlighten the House by saying how he reconciles his many previous denials in this House about plans for further nationalisation with the current Labour campaign guide which specifically promises an extension of the public sector of road haulage?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am not aware that I have ever denied the possibility of more public ownership. I am far too careful to say that. I have made plain in the House, time and again, that freight must pay its way. This applies to the National Freight Corporation which deserves the fullest support on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: Will my right hon. Friend avoid the dogmatic approach of the Conservative Party, which denationalised the road haulage industry at a time when road and rail were paying? He should move forward to an integrated road and rail service, with traffic on the railways that is best carried by rail and that on the roads that is best suited to the roads.
    Mr. Rodgers: I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. He is right to say that we have to look for proper co-ordination of all our freight services. He is also right to say that we need a mixed economy in road haulage. In my view, we need a rather larger public sector too.

    British Railways
    Mr. Gowasked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he expects to meet the chairman of the British Railways Board.
    Mr. Beithasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to meet the chairman of the British Railways Board.
    Mr. Spriggsasked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects next to meet the chairman of the British Railways Board.
    Mr. Rodgers: Probably next week.
    Mr. Gow: At that meeting next week, will the Secretary of State discuss with the chairman the operation of the closed

    451
    shop in British Rail? In particular, will he remind the chairman of section 15 of the joint agreement of 14 February, which provided that those who have a conscientious objection to joining a trade union should not be obliged to do so? Will the right hon. Gentleman report back to the House on his discussions to eliminate from British Rail the worst evils of the closed shop?
    Mr. Rodgers: I have not made a practice over the last two and a half years of reporting to the House the details of what I have properly discussed in confidence with the chairman. The chairman is fully aware of the issue which the hon. Gentleman has raised today, and on previous occasions.
    Mr. Spriggs: In view of the resounding success of British Rail's high-speed train, will my right hon. Friend give his support to the advanced passenger train? Is he aware that this outstanding example of British technology has enormous export potential?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am glad that my hon. Friend has drawn attention to the important export role of British Rail, with its advanced technology. As I said in reply to an earlier question, I am anxious to support further developments like the APT and the development of other services that can never expect high technology of that kind.
    Mr. Aitken: Since the Minister and his colleagues have repeatedly said that the Government are neutral on the issue of the closed shop and British Rail, will he explain why the Government are paying out taxpayers' money to defend at the European Court of Human Rights the case brought against the Government by the British Rail employees expelled from their union?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am not aware that I have ever expressed any views at Question Time on this matter. If the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a question I shall be happy to give a detailed reply.
    Mr. William Hamilton: When my right hon. Friend meets the chairman, will he inquire whether the Opposition have made any statement to him about the removal of subsidies from rail services in rural areas? If not, will he invite Sir
    452
    Peter Parker to make that inquiry? Alternatively, will my right hon. Friend now press the Opposition to state categorically that they have no intention of reducing those subsidies?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is for representatives of the Opposition to express their view. I hope that they now recall with regret that last year they voted against the Second Reading of the Transport Bill, which contained important proposals for the development of public transport.

    Tachograph
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Transport what consultations he is having with the road transport industry over his decision to implement the tachograph regulations.
    Mr. William Rodgers: I shall shortly begin consultations with both sides of the industry on the arrangements and timetable for implementing the tachograph resolution.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: May I press the Secretary of State to share with the House his thoughts about the time scale for the implementation of the EEC directive? Does he think that the implementation will be completed within two years, or perhaps three years?
    Mr. Rodgers: I should be happy to share views, but I have none at the present time. As I made clear in announcing the Government's decision in the light of the views of the European Court, consultation will take place. This consultation must be with both sides of industry—they are anxious to have it—and with the Commission itself. That consultation will begin quite soon, probably after Easter. At that point I shall be able to report to the House on what the timetable is likely to be.
    Mr. McNamara: Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will continue to treat this matter as one of great sensitivity? It is an important matter that involves not only economic but important social and industrial relations interests. The matter must not be rushed. It must be taken with extreme care.
    Mr. Rodgers: My hon. Friend is right to refer to the great sensitivity of the issue. The decision on the matter of

    453
    principle has been taken by the Government, but, clearly, the views of all those who will be directly affected must be taken into account. This will affect not only the programme for implementation but the timetable, too. I can give that plain assurance.
    Mr. Marten: In view of the judgment of the European Court, am I right in assuming that the Minister will have to introduce into this House an order or similar instrument to implement that judgment? What would be the constitutional position if the House were to reject that order which the European Court had asked us to introduce?
    Mr. Rodgers: That is a situation with which we should have to deal if and when it arose. The hon. Gentleman is right. As I said in reply to a supplementary question at our last Question Time, it will be for the House finally to decide, in the light of the Government's decision on the European Court's ruling.
    Mr. Grimond: Has the Minister made an up-to-date estimate of the extra cost that the introduction of the tachograph may impose on the transport industry? If so, what is the likely effect on the cost of transport to the user?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is difficult to say precisely what the additional cost will be. That will depend, in part, on whether the tachograph contributes to higher productivity. The additional gross capital and operating costs will be relatively small in relation to the overall investment in the industry and its operating costs in other directions.
    Mr. Jay: As we have so often been told that any EEC member State may veto a decision affecting its vital interests, why did the Government not veto the application of this decision to Britain?
    Mr. Rodgers: As my right hon. Friend knows, there is a distinction between Community law that we accepted on joining the Community and did not seek to renegotiate and the proposals that now come before the European Council. It is open to the Government, as to other Governments, to veto proposals that are new. There is no question but that we inherited a tachograph obligation when we joined the Community, and we did not seek to renegotiate it.

    Road Construction (Compensation for Noise)
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will institute a review of the criteria for noise compensation during road constuction works.
    Mr. Horam: I have arranged for this matter to be added to those which will be considered by the working party established by the Department to review the scope of the noise insulation regulations.
    Mr. Whitehead: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. I am grateful to him also for coming to see an especially bad example in Derby. I move from the general to the particular. What hope can he give to my constituents in Spon-don who have been suffering from this noise for over a year without a penny piece of compensation?
    Mr. Horam: My hon. Friend had discussed the matter with me. I have been to see those concerned, and I have now decided that insulation will be offered to four properties in Galway Avenue, six in Meath Avenue and in other properties comparably affected at the western end of the existing Borrowash bypass—a total of about 35 or 45 properties.
    Mr. Rooker: Does my hon. Friend think there is a case for explaining to our constituents how noise shadow maps are constructed? They do not believe, because they do not see measurements taken, that the maps have been constructed effectively. The maps are constructed by computer. Is there not a case for more test readings so that those who are concerned can be convinced that the maps are accurate, or otherwise, as the case may be?
    Mr. Horam: I know that my hon. Friend has great problems in this respect in his constituency. He has raised a number of matters with me on earlier occasions, and he has raised a valuable one today.

    Traffic Commissioners (Licensing System)
    Mr. Newtonasked the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he is taking to reform the licensing system operated by the Traffic Commissioners.
    Mr. Horam: We do not see any present need for changes in the road service licensing system following those that we made so recently in the Transport Act 1978.
    Mr. Newton: Assuming that the Minister accepts that in many rural areas there is already something of a transport crisis, does he agree that there is a real case for a further relaxation that would give private operators a better chance to introduce new services?
    Mr. Horam: No, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is important to make the relaxations that we have already introduced work. The Government have done a great deal for those who live in rural areas and have transport problems. We have been thwarted from time to time by obdurate Conservative-controlled country councils, but our record is a good one.
    Mr. Norman Fowler: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr. Newton) is correct? Is not the true position that the cost and delay of the traffic commissioner process dissuades new private operators from entering the market? Surely it is in the public interest that we encourage, especially in rural areas, new private operators and new services to develop.
    Mr. Horam: We should encourage new services to develop. That is precisely what it is proposed the Transport Act will do, and what it will do if it is allowed time to work properly. The hon. Gentleman exaggerates the cost and difficulty of submitting proposals for new services to the commissioners.

    Cross-Channel Transport
    Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with his counterpart Ministers in the EEC on traffic problems which arise out of commercial vehicle cross-Channel transport.
    Mr. William Rodgers: None lately.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—I am sure that he is—that the vehicles now entering Britain are so numerous, heavy and large that they pose an environmental danger?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am not sure that I heard the conclusion of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but I shall presume that I did. Yes, I am aware that many vehicles now entering Britain are heavy and large. It is the problem caused by heavy lorries from abroad, among others, that leads me to believe that the inquiry that I announced earlier should take place.
    Mr. Adley: What is the latest situation on the Channel tunnel?
    Mr. Rodgers: I have now received proposals from British Rail for a modified tunnel on the lines of which the House is aware. I am examining the proposals, and I shall be in a position to report later this year.

    Railways (Leeds-Bradford)
    Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on electrification proposals for the Leeds-Bradford area railway network.
    Mr. Horam: I do not know of any proposals for the electrification of railway lines in the Leeds and Bradford area.
    Mr. Cryer: My hon. Friend need have no worries about that. I am willing to make proposals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made an important announcement today about electrification. Does my hon. Friend accept that in the longer term it would help regional policy in intermediate areas if, for example, the Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Keighley railway lines were to be considered for electrification as part of a long-term programme to retain the expert team assembled by British Rail, which has been electrifying the suburban lines running into St. Pancras and King's Cross, and to use it in areas in the regions to replace the declining diesel motor units now in service?
    Mr. Horam: There is much in what my hon. Friend says. West Yorkshire county council has powers to provide finance for local electrification if it wishes. I shall be happy to receive proposals from my hon. Friend to submit to the Government. In addition, he may care to make some proposals to the Tory-controlled local authority.

    A57 (Sheffield)
    Mr. John H. Osbornasked the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he, the Transport and Road Research Laboratory, or any of the advisory committees responsible to him, has had with the South Yorkshire county council and the Sheffield city council about traffic reorganisation schemes for the A57 and other roads to the suburbs at Broomhill, in the Hallam division of Sheffield; and whether the present schemes under discussion have had his approval.
    Mr. Horam: The only discussions of which I am aware are those we have had with the South Yorkshire county council about traffic signals which would be required should the council decide to proceed with its proposed traffic management scheme at Broomhill. Following those
    discussions which concerned the signals layout and operation which would be employed, approval in principle was given last summer.
    Mr. Osborn: Is it not a fact that Sheffield district council is objecting to the proposals put forward by the Yorkshire county council? Will his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment be holding an inquiry? Will he be in a position to give evidence?
    Mr. Horam: I do not think that that is the intention. It is a matter wholly for the county council.

    Experimental Road Humps
    Mr. David Atkinson
    asked the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received from the Association of County Councils regarding the installation of experimental road humps.
    Mr. Horam: Since experimental humps were first constructed on public roads in 1976, the association has written to the Department three times expressing interest in the trials, and in being consulted about further legislation.
    Mr. Atkinson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that sleeping policemen make a substantial contribution to road safety and reduce noise and speed in residential areas? Will he agree to amend the 1974 Act to give freedom to local authorities to instal sleeping policemen?
    Mr. Horam: The hon. Gentleman is saying that he approves of the method to which he has referred, which improves road safety. I accept that. Sleeping policemen improve road safety. However, we want to proceed fairly carefully. There are some important problems. For example, how do we deal with emergency services such as the fire brigade? We need a little time to consider these matters. A report will be issued soon on the experiments that have taken place so far, and we shall then consider whether to amend the regulations. That will probably be later this year.

SERVICE WIDOWS (PROVISION OF PENSIONS)
3.31 p.m.
Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport): I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision for Service pensions and in particular to provide pensions for widows of non-commissioned Service men who retired before September 1950.
This subject deserves a detailed speech, but in deference to the occasion I shall make the very shortest summary. Widows of officers in the Armed Forces have been entitled to pensions for many years. When the widows of non-commissioned Service men were given a pension in 1952 there was a cut-off date of 1 September 1950. Widows whose husbands retired after that date were given a pension. Widows of men retired before that date were left out.
By 1972 it was estimated that there were about 30,000 pre-1950 widows and that the cost of providing pensions would be about £4 million a year. There is overwhelming sympathy for the cause of the pre-1950 widows. My Bill converts that sympathy into action. It may have made sense in Nelson's day for the widows of officers and widows of men to be
460
treated differently. I believe that it is utterly abhorrent to the spirit of this age that this distinction should be continued.
In commending this Bill to the House, I ask all hon. Members to do what they can to urge this cause upon their respective parties, so that pensions will be given to the pre-1950 widows with the unanimous support of the House and the country.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Peter Viggers, Mr. Philip Goodhart, Mr. Alan Lee Williams, Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles, Mr. Stanley Newens, Mr. Ian McCormick, Mr. Dafydd Wigley, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, the Rev. Ian Paisley, Mr. Julian Critchley, Mr. Richard Crawshaw and Mr. John Ovenden.

SERVICE WIDOWS (PROVISION OF PENSIONS)
  SERVICE WIDOWS (PROVISION OF PENSIONS)
  Mr. Viggers accordingly presented a Bill to make further provision for Service pensions and in particular to provide pensions for widows of non-commissioned Service men who retired before 1 September 1950: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 30 March and to be printed. [Bill 126.]

  HER MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT (OPPOSITION MOTION)
  Mr. Speaker: Before we embark on this debate I want to give a cautionary word to the House. Everyone knows that the Division will be called at 10 o'clock. I want to make it quite clear, therefore, that if the Division bells fail in any part of the premises, or even if the lifts fail, I shall be most unlikely to order a Division to be held again if hon. Members then complain that they have been unable to reach the Lobby in time.
  In my view—and this has happened before—it is the responsibility of hon. Members to make sure that they are present, or near the Chamber, in advance of the time for the Division. I also remind the House that the Division will not be concluded until the numbers have been announced from the Chair.
  3.34 p.m.
  Mrs. Margaret Thatcher (Finchley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move,
  That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government.
  The timing of the motion arises from the Government's inept handling of the result of the referendums on the Scotland and Wales Acts. When we thought that it was a time for decision, the Prime Minister thought that it was a time for talks. As he had previously spurned them, we were not wholly convinced that the reasons that he advanced represented the whole truth. We were similarly sceptical when he expressed his willingness to consider modifications to the present Acts, presumably by an amending Bill or a totally different measure.
  From his days as Home Secretary we know that the right hon. Gentleman takes what might be charitably described as a flexible view of constitutional niceties, but even he might find it difficult to arrange for major changes on a subject like this to pass through all their stages in the three working months, at most, that are left to this House. Any such changes must be for a new Parliament.
  The only decision that the Prime Minister really took was to delay a decision. For reasons that I find difficult to understand, such momentous delays seem, these days, to be accompanied by ministerial broadcasts. The good government of the United Kingdom and its unity are matters
  462
  of supreme importance to this House, wherever we may sit. The new proposals are not for a dying Parliament but for a new one.
  The essence of the motion is that the Government have failed the nation, that they have lost credibility, and that it is time for them to go. Lest the Prime Minister should advance his customary explanation of failure—namely, his political inheritance—I point out that his and this Government's inheritance was from a Labour Government led by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson).
  This Parliament was elected in October 1974. By then Labour had been in office for seven months. The Government had had plenty of time to assess the economic state of the country. The election of October 1974 gave them the opportunity to state it clearly. They did. The Chancellor claimed that inflation was down to 8·4 per cent, on his chosen basis. Later, when inflation went soaring up, how did the Chancellor explain it? Not by any talk about the previous Conservative Government's policies—that excuse had not been invented.
  On "Analysis", on BBC Radio 4, in October 1976 the Chancellor said:
  "I think it is fair to say that inflation went up much more after the October election than I, or anyone else, expected, because the trades unions didn't at the time observe the social contract as they had defined it earlier in the year."
  When the Chancellor was pressed, he stressed the point even further:
  "I think it's fair to say that wage inflation was the main reason for the runaway inflation in the months that followed the October 1974 election."
  Nor was it only inflation that had been beaten by October 1974, according to the then Government. The Chancellor said, on 24 September, after six months in office:
  "I am certain we can get through the whole of next year with well under 1 million unemployed."
  Not only did he not get through 1975 with under 1 million unemployed; he did not get through 1976 or 1977 or 1978 with under that figure.
  It is no good, therefore, for the Prime Minister now to say that the disasters since October 1974 were the fault of the Conservative Government. In October 1974 the Labour Government took full responsibility for the state of the economy.

  463
  Let us be fair to the previous Prime Minister; he was prepared to take responsibility.
  Let us take the Prime Minister's own objectives as the test by which he should be judged. He set them out in the first censure debate, which took place in June 1976. His first objective was to overcome inflation. Apparently the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not performed that feat by the time that the last election took place. Be that as it may, the fact is that this Government have been responsible for doubling the prices in the housewife's shopping basket.
  Far from being overcome, inflation is rising again and will rise in the coming months. Indeed, on the Healey basis, it is already into double figures. It was on that basis that we were given by the Treasury, in a written answer, the figure of 13·3 per cent.
  The Prime Minister's second objective was
  "to make inroads into the unacceptably high level of unemployment…and to reduce it by 1979 to 3 per cent."
  Today it is double that figure. On that, too, the Prime Minister has failed.
  The Prime Minister's third objective was
  "to achieve a high-output, high-productivity, and a high-wage economy based on full employment".
  But only a week or so ago we had news of the worst level of manufacturing output this decade. A few days ago we had a chilling reminder that not only are our industrial competitors ahead of us in output but that they are pulling away from us at what seems to be an even faster rate.
  For every extra unit of output from a worker in British industry over the last five years, our least efficient competitors—the Italians—produced two units, the Americans more than three, the French four and a half, the Germans five and a half and the Japanese more than six. In the same world conditions that we face, their Governments seem to be able to generate the conditions for success. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"] This Government have failed.
  Those were the Prime Minister's objectives. His strategy was the social contract, and then a new social contract
  464
  "to enable us to proceed with confidence in the years ahead."—[Official Report, 9 June 1976; Vol. 912, c. 1458–62.]
  That strategy has totally collapsed, as many of us said it would, but we were regularly vilified for saying so. The fourth phase of that contract—the 5 per cent.—was never accepted by those for whom it was intended. It resulted in creating the very confrontation that the Prime Minister boasted he had replaced, by cooperation. The people witnessed the spectacle of a Government abdicating their authority to strike committees. The Prime Minister's objectives were not achieved, and his strategy failed.
  The Prime Minister said that had his dream of new economic strength come about he would use it to strengthen our position abroad, to ensure a peaceful solution to world problems through the use of the United Nations, and to strengthen Europe's voice. What is the reality? Rarely in the post-war period can our standing in the world have been lower, or our defences weaker. The international position is graver than at any time since the 1930s. The difference is that Britain is now a nation on the sidelines.
  In one diagnosis, however, I agree with the Prime Minister. Influence overseas depends upon economic strength at home. A nation that cannot manage its own affairs properly is not in a position to give advice to those who can.
  There are, I believe, four main things that have contributed to Britain's decline in the last five years. First, far too little attention has been given to wealth creation and far too much to wealth distribution. What has to be done? Top of the list must be a policy of incentive tax cuts. There has been agreement on that for years. The trouble is that the Government just do not do it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has sympathy with the tax position of management, but sympathy is as far as it goes. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Government's resident example of congenial and civilised man, is much more expansive. In a television interview he said:
  "The rate of tax on salaried talent is very high in this country … The putting of this right is a massive problem that will take a little time. I believe this to be a number one priority in the Chancellor's mind for future action … That is my own view and ought to be."

  465
  But nothing was done. Even the Prime Minister tells his colleagues"If you talk to people in the factories and in the clubs, they all want to pay less tax." But pronouncement is not followed by policy. The lack of that policy leads to a haemorrhage of talent in managment and resentment amongst the skilled.
  The Jeremiahs sometimes say that the ordinary people of this country have lost the will to work, but let them work in other countries, where they are no longer frustrated by British tax rates, and they can out-produce and out-sell our competitors.
  Vital as tax cuts are to restore management morale and the morale of the skilled worker, they are also needed to encourage the growth of small business. Mainly from that sector shall we achieve the new jobs—tomorrow's jobs—that we need for our young people.
  No Government can protect yesterday's jobs for ever. They can postpone the day of reckoning, but they cannot escape it. They can ease the transition from one job to another, but this Government try to protect yesterday's job without facilitating the growth of new industries. That is a policy for penury and unemployment, from which the regions suffer most of all.
  For wealth creation a different attitude to profits is required. Profits are pitifully low. As a result, several companies have announced cutbacks in investment plans. Examples are ICI and Hoover. The alternative of borrowing to invest is precluded from many businesses by the continuing prohibitive interest rates which are the consequences of this Government's policies.
  All our hopes for better homes for families, better schools for our children, better pensions for retirement and better health services depend for their fulfilment on our ability to create the wealth to pay for them. Fail in that and we fail in all the other things. The Government have failed, and the social services of other nations consequently have overtaken ours. That, I believe, is the first reason for the decline.
  The second reason for the decline is that the Government have concentrated far too much power in the hands of the centralised State and left too little with the individual citizen. Indeed, if the
  466
  Government had assumed less power over communities and individuals the more remote areas in the United Kingdom would have less reason to worry about the power coming from Westminster.
  Although Socialism is about centralised planning and control, even some members of Her Majesty's Government have, from time to time, begun to have doubts about the wisdom of the policy. The former distinguished Member, the late Anthony Crosland, in a lecture in October 1975, said:
  "But we must take seriously the fears about the growth of State power, especially given the penchant of some socialists for the continual spawning of giant new institutions under centralised control…We should not be in the business of creating giant leviathans manned by armies of bureaucrats."
  What a pity he and his colleagues did not take that advice. That was added to by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who said, in Birmingham this year:
  "We have to acknowledge that the decentralised private sector has out-performed the old-fashioned concepts of centralised planning."
  Of course, such wisdom marks him out as a man whom the Left must try to oust from his constituency. But those views are ours. We believe that they are in tune with the nation; not, however, with the actions of this Government as centralisation continues and even increases. For example, the Price Commission, with its investigatory powers, descends upon even the most successful companies to pronounce on their efficiency, having had no experience in that sort of business. The concordat demands more planning agreements between the Government and companies—yet another hindrance to the job of seeking new markets and producing the goods.
  In the chemical industry, plant worth millions of pounds would be lying idle today if companies had based their investment on the totally unreal market projections that were put forward by the Government and the trade unions. The concordat also foreshadowed the direction by the Government of savings in pension and insurance funds—away from the object of providing for pensioners and insurance holders to the objects of industrial strategy. If the object of that strategy is to back success, the companies concerned will have no difficulty in getting

  467
  finance. If the object is to back losers, it would be better for pensioners if their money were not invested in that way.
  Perhaps the most debilitating and damaging aspect of the Government's policy to increase State power is that the supporters of the Government positively believe in taking a higher proportion of the national income away from the taxpayer and letting the Government decide how it should be spent. In no way have the Government been reticent about that.
  What the policy boils down to is this: that the State should take more tax from the citizen and provide him with his basic standard of living, according to what the Government decide he needs. That would leave only less essential things to be found from his pay packet—a sort of pocket-money society policy. These measures are put forward in the name of social responsibility, social morality, social progress, and so on. What the Government forgot is that we shall never have social responsibility unless, first, we have responsible individuals.
  How does responsibility grow if decisions on personal property and savings are constantly transferred to the State? We shall never have social morality without having individuals of moral worth. That cannot be attained except by exercising choice and not taking it away. We shall never get social progress except through the efforts of individuals with a sense of purpose.
  Part of the reason for our decline is that Britain now shows every sign of a destruction of individual and productive energy, which is wholly exceptional on any comparison with those European States most like ourselves. Those are the first two reasons for our decline—insufficient attention to the creation of wealth and too much concentration on increasing State control.
  The third reason for our problems is that the balance between power and responsibility in the trade union movement needs to be restored. So does the balance of obligations between the employer and the employee. I have dealt with the immediate measures needed on those matters on previous occasions; I shall not enlarge upon them today. However, because of the ties of the Labour Party with the trade union movement, because the trade union movement effec-
  468
  tively controls the conferences and executive of the Labour Party, and because it provides about 90 per cent of the finance of the Labour Party, I do not believe that a Labour Government will ever make the necessary changes.
  The Prime Minister could have taken action with our support. He chose not to do so. He is the prisoner of his own history in this matter. The unions were his stepping-stones to power, and they know it. So be it. Changes will have to be made by another Government, and I believe that they will have the overwhelming support of the people, including the majority of trade union members.
  On the economic side, we have to break through the prosperity barrier in manufacturing industry. We can do so only if, through good management, proper incentives and co-operation, we are able to cut restrictive practices and raise output per person. If half as much time had been spent on policies to raise output as had been spent on policies to increase pay, we should have achieved a higher standard of work and hence a higher standard of living today. The truth is that in the countries of our main industrial competitors, union and Government policies have combined to do far better for union members than is the case in Britain.
  The fourth reason for our decline—this pervades the whole life of the community—is the Government's position on the rule of law. They have shown insufficient support for the rule of law in this country. The most cogent example of that proposition came from the Lord President in 1977. He said:
  "It does so happen to be the case that if the freedom of the people of this country—and especially the rights of trade unionists—if those precious things in the past had been left to the good sense and fairmindedness of judges, we would have precious few freedoms in this country."
  Some of us were so appalled by what the Lord President said that we tackled the Prime Minister about it in the House of Commons. He said:
  "Frankly, I do not think that he went far enough." [Official Report, 17 May 1977; Vol. 932, c. 233.]
  The Government set the tone. The events of the winter produced a new phrase from the Attorney-General—" lawful intimidation ". If the Prime Minister and his Ministers take that view of the law, it is not surprising that others will follow.

  469
  Of course, it was not long before one of the trade union leaders did. He said:
  "My advice is to carry on picketing. I cannot see union members accepting the court decision. They will inevitably act in such numbers that the authorities will have to use football stadia for detention centres."
  That is the rule of the mob—not the rule of law. It should be condemned by every institution and Minister in the land. As it is, the people have identified the weakness far quicker than the Government.
  Go anywhere in the country, and one finds that the demand is for two things—less tax and more law and order. The phrase"law and order"does not refer only to vandalism and violence—although that is uppermost in many people's minds. It means that our citizens expect and are not getting an ordered or orderly society. They expect the rubbish to be cleared, the schools to be open and the hospitals to be functioning. They are not. They expect each man and woman to rise to his obligations in an orderly and decent way. They expect bargains to be kept between trade unions and employers. Finally, they expect Ministers to support them in those views.
  In the recent closure of schools, the authorities did not support the law-abiding citizen or his children. It was the citizens who had to go to the courts when their children were denied access to the schools. It was the law that upheld the parents when they could not persuade the council or Ministers to help them. The Secretary of State for Education took the view—astonishing as it may seem—that the council had not failed to discharge its duty. The right hon. Lady has been prepared to pass new laws to close good schools. It is a pity that she has not been as eager to use existing laws to keep present schools open.
  At least there was a law to invoke. There are many cases when the interests or livelihood of a person can be changed or taken away and there is no remedy at law. That is the legacy of this Government. After five years, it is not surprising that our people want the benefit of a Government who regard the maintenance of the rule of law as the foremost of their tasks.
  There we have the record, and some of the reasons for failure. Each crisis,
  470
  industrial or financial, has been met by short-term measures, but there has been no serious attempt to deal with the underlying problems. On the contrary, they are worse.
  The Government have doubled prices, doubled dole queues, doubled debt, diminished our defences and undermined public respect and confidence in the law. There has been a failure not only of policies but of the whole philosophy on which they are based—the philosophy which elevates the State, dwarfs the individual and enlarges the bureaucracy. Across the Western world the tide is turning against that, and soon the same thing will happen here.
  I return to the occasion for this motion, which arose out of a constitutional matter affecting the whole House. Hon. Members from both sides made an eminently reasonable request to the Prime Minister that he should determine the matters outstanding from the referendums by the end of this month. He deliberately chose not to make a matching response but to try to manipulate the situation for his own ends. He can have no grounds for anger if others judge it for the manoeuvre that it was. Nor, in view of the Government's conduct of parliamentary matters during the past three years, can he complain if his present action is dubbed characteristic.
  It is not unusual for minority Governments to carry on for a considerable time, as this Government have. What condemns the Prime Minister now is the justified feeling that the substance of matters before the House takes second place to the survival of the Government. That feeling is widespread, and it robs the Government and the Prime Minister of authority, credibility and dignity. The only way to renew the authority of parliamentary government is to seek a fresh mandate from the people and to seek it quickly. We challenge the Government to do so before this day is through.
  4.3 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): The right hon. Lady, the Leader of the Opposition began by recalling the circumstances in which our debate on the motion of no confidence is taking place. As she said, it follows directly from my proposal last week that

  471
  in the light of the devolution referendums, and especially because of the result in Scotland, there should be a limited period of discussion between the parties before Parliament debated the orders that would repeal the Scotland and Wales Acts once and for all.
  The right hon. Lady did not immediately reject that proposal. She waited for the well-advertised move by the Scottish National Party. Its Members told the world what they would do, and they did it. They tabled a motion censuring the Government. For what? For not immediately bringing the Act into force.
  The Opposition, of course, want nothing like that. They want the very reverse. They want to get rid of the Act. But the SNP motion was enough for the Opposition Chief Whip. I am glad to see that he is now securely perched on the Front Bench. I hope that he will not fall off. When the SNP tabled its motion, the right hon. Gentleman went into action. He scurried round to the Liberal Party to find out if it would vote for a motion of censure—and he was not disappointed. The Liberals, spinning like a top, assured him that they would be ready, indeed that they were anxious, to take part in talks with the Government on the future of the Acts, but, equally, they were ready to vote for any motion that would prevent such talks from even beginning.
  Fortified by that display of Liberal logic, the Opposition tabled their own vote of no confidence. We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition discovered what the Liberals and the SNP would do, she found the courage of their convictions.
  So, tonight, the Conservative Party, which wants the Act repealed and opposes even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, which wants independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle!
  The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going around the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas.
  On Friday I wrote to the other parties basically concerned with devolution for
  472
  Scotland and Wales, formally confirming the talks that I had offered in the House. So far, not surprisingly—I do not complain about it—I have had no reply, except for what the right hon. Lady said on television. But when the motion of no confidence is defeated, the Governmen's offer will still stand.
  We shall be glad, and will seek, to open discussions with the other parties about the future of the Scotland Act within the limited time period that I proposed last week. The Government firmly believe that that should be the next step before Parliament takes the final step of debating and deciding on the orders to erase the Acts from the statute book.
  Mr. Gordon Wilson Mr. Gordon Wilson (Dundee, East) rose—
  The Prime Minister: Amid the general excitement of today, I ask the House not to forget that the people of Scotland are expecting hon. Members on both sides to treat their constitutional future with seriousness and not just as a by-product of a grab for office.
  Today, the right hon. Lady has widened the discussion into a general indictment of the Government's record and actions.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury) rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister is not giving way.
  The Prime Minister: As this is a motion of no confidence, I think that I am entitled to deploy our case in the way that I choose best.
  I reply to the right hon. Lady by advancing three propositions. First, this Government, who have been in a minority in this House for most of their life, have achieved an outstanding record of social progress and economic performance.
  Secondly—and on this point I do not differ from the right hon Lady—during the years that lie ahead there will be a great deal for the Government and for the country to do in such areas as improving our industrial efficiency, the return to full employment, controlling prices, better industrial relations, and overcoming poverty. There will be no sense of complacency by the Government about what needs still to be done, but neither should

  473
  we overlook the achievements of the last five years.
  My third proposition is that we shall make most progress by adapting and broadening the policies that have served so far to protect the people of this country in the midst of world recession and not by sudden switches or reversals of policy.
  The right hon. Lady clearly believed this afternon that she was putting forward some new policies. On the contrary, what we heard was a repetition of the same old policies that the Conservative Government tried between 1970 and 1974—policies that failed and that finally led to the ignominy of the three-day candlelit week in which the last Conservative Government expired.
  Perhaps I might add a fourth proposition to the other three. If we are to succeed, the country needs a Labour Government with a working majority—and we shall seek that in the early future.
  During the coming year, developments in the world at large will critically affect Britain's prospects for jobs, for prices, and for trade. Last summer, in Bonn, I met the leaders of six of the major industrial countries and together with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer we pressed very hard that all the countries present should take domestic action that would sustain world levels of trade and improve the unequal distribution of our balance of payments.
  The measures that we then decided upon have had a good measure of success and, as a result, the world economy, including that of this country, has benefited from a faster growth rate. But, with some notable exceptions, prices are still rising too fast and the level of world unemployment is not yet falling. Yesterday's decision by the oil-producing countries to raise prices will not help either inflation or employment, and will increase the problems caused by the interruption in Iranian oil supplies. They will have a further adverse effect on world trade and on the world balance of payments, especially of large oil importing countries, such as the United States. The price increases may force certain countries to adopt more restrictive growth and trade policies. They will certainly make it more necessary than ever for all countries to adopt concerted and co-operative
  474
  policies if we are to maintain levels of world trade and employment. The right hon. Lady says that such meetings are not worth while. If she ever had the responsibility for these matters, she would learn how valuable these meetings are.
  I wish to emphasise the priority that must be given to saving oil on a world scale. Britain is more fortunate than most. This year, thanks to the North Sea enterprises, we shall produce three-quarters of our requirements. In the course of next year, Britain will reach self-sufficiency. That is an inestimable boon.
  Nevertheless, there is an obligation on Britain, as on everybody else, to be sparing, to be economical in the use of oil, and to meet the international obligations that we have entered into in company with other countries. There is general agreement among the industrial countries that we should reduce oil consumption in each of our countries by 5 per cent. I believe that to be the minimum reduction. We in Britain are working to that end and are fortunate to have a well-based coal industry to replace part of our oil consumption.
  Although this country's supplies are reasonably assured and we may escape comparatively unscathed, if an oil scarcity should develop or high prices should restrict the level of output in other countries, it will clearly become more difficult for us to export, and jobs in export industries will be at greater risk, with a consequential effect on the rest of our economy, as on the economies of other countries.
  I claim that the Government's economic policies are well-designed to meet this test. We have given high priority to new investment in industrial plant and machinery, through tax reliefs and direct financial aid, and our industries have responded by investing more. We have made the restraint of inflation an overriding priority to keep our costs down. We have doubled our programme to train skilled men and women for new jobs and we have established the National Enterprise Board, which is giving financial backing to new industries and enterprises like the Rolls-Royce aero-engine that will power the new American Boeing aircraft, and the microprocessor venture in which we must mark out a place among world leaders.

  475
  Since 1974 we have set up the successful Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies to encourage new enterprises. Employers and trade unions are jointly working together to study the future prospects for their industries and for export markets, and how to prevent import penetration, under the aegis of the sector working parties and with the aid of the Government.
  I note what the right hon. Lady said about protecting yesterday's jobs. I agree that we must strike a balance between protecting jobs that are now fading and creating new jobs, but I can claim—if the Opposiion were looking at this matter objectively they would agree—that it makes sense to protect some of our more vulnerable industries from the onslaught made on them by the new industrial countries. We have eased their transitional difficulties by financial help—or perhaps I should say by public expenditure—to give them a breathing space while they adapt to new methods or new products.
  During 1978, against that background, unemployment was reduced by more than 100,000. Employers and workers are ready to take advantage of that partnership with the Government. By working together we are slowly but surely—too slowly for my liking—making British industry more fit to face the rigours of world competition.
  We have not overlooked the fact that during such a period of transition there will be casualties among companies and firms, and the Government have devised social measures to ease the problem for those who are affected. The job release scheme allows people to retire at 62 with an allowance, provided that they are replaced by younger people. There is the subsidy paid to small firms which take on extra full-time workers. There is the programme that helps people aged between 19 and 24 who have been out of work for six months and older people who have been out of work for at least a year.
  Payments are made to companies forced to work short time that compensate them at a rate of 75 per cent. of the gross wages for each day lost. All these and other schemes operated by the Manpower Services Commission have led the rest of Europe—I ask the right hon. Lady
  476
  to note this when she is so scathing about our policies—to acknowledge that this country has a comprehensive job creation and job protection programme that has eased the social tensions that would otherwise have been created and that exist in other countries, as we have witnessed on our television screens.
  The Labour Government are convinced that that basic approach makes for greater sense than the free market, free-for-all approach that would abolish grants and financial aid, which was put forward by the Opposition spokesman. That would undermine these programmes and that policy. If the Conservative Party were to get its hands on our affairs, it would be an act of vandalism.
  Turning to some aspects of industrial relations, as the right hon. Lady correctly said, the events of the winter demonstrate the difficulties into which a society such as ours can be drawn. They also demonstrate the difficulties that arise when there is not an agreed understanding between the Government and the trade unions. If there had been agreement last autumn, we might have avoided some of the events of the winter. I do not seek to ascribe responsibility for the failure to agree, but I point to the consequences—especially to those who believe that confrontation is the best way forward. Are the events of this winter to become a regular pattern under a Conservative Government?
  This Government have reached a new agreement with the TUC. It is not perfect, and it may be breached on occasion, but our future prospects depend on how successfully we build on that agreement. It is important for its reaffirmation—let the Opposition deny it if they dare—that the Government and the TUC must work in partnership. Is that agreed, or not? Let me add that the Government take the view—I come immediately to the point that has been raised by the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam)—that we shall make most progress by building the widest possible economic consensus with the unions, employers and Government.
  The agreement between us covers three areas. First, there is the guidance that the TUC has issued to its affiliated unions on the handling of industrial relations and on the need to observe agreements, stating that strike action is to be taken in the

  477
  last resort. There is a strong recommendation for strike ballots. The agreement recognises the concern about certain aspects of the closed shop and gives advice on the flexible operation of such agreements. Those are the issues on which the Opposition have focused. Do they prefer to jeer at the prospects of that agreement breaking down rather than hope that it will succeed?
  Secondly, there is agreement by the TUC, in which the CBI will participate, on the need to take part, each year, in a national assessment of the economy for the year ahead. That was suggested by the right hon. Lady, even though it was a little late, so let hon. Members not jeer at that. If anybody jeers at that, he will be in for a wigging pretty quickly. There is also agreement to discuss what increase in production can be achieved, how much increase in labour costs the country can afford, and how inflation can be kept down. There is a bold and ambitious target, to which we have set our hands, of working to get inflation below 5 per cent. in the next three years. That is the objective.
  Thirdly, there is recognition of the problem of how to adjust remuneration differentially between the various groups of workers, and particularly in the public services, without leading to one group leapfrogging over another. That is a most difficult area, and we have not yet found the answer. I am grateful to Professor Clegg and his colleagues—I hope that my hon. Friends are noting the jeers—who have undertaken the task in the new Standing Commission on pay comparability.
  The agreement with the TUC recognises and sets out that some of these pay problems are becoming more intractable. It is ready to take part in work to try to achieve a national consensus on the overall distribution of income. These are important areas for discussion and agreement. They cannot be solved by the right hon. Lady's simplistic approach that she described some months ago as the withdrawal of Government from interference in wage bargaining. As the right hon. Lady hopes soon to have responsibility, the question that I am about to ask becomes more pertinent. If she proposes to withdraw from interference in wage bargaining, how will she deal with the public services pay? What principles will she
  478
  apply? In her first reactions—I hope that later ones will be different—she poured scorn on the effectiveness of that agreement, unlike the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). I shall not embarrass him by going into that further.
  If any Government can secure success in those areas, it will take us a long way forward in solving a problem that has long been the cause of inflationary discontent, namely, how to adjust pay levels in different occupations and industries without at the same time generating other claims that at the end of the day leave the structural problems unsolved but, in the process, fuel inflation.
  The agreement with the TUC has set some ambitious aims. They are a formidable challenge, not only to the Government but to the trade union movement. The seriousness with which solutions to these problems are pursued—the Government are following them up with the TUC—will be watched closely by the country to see whether the agreement has the substance that I believe it will have.
  I am certain that that is the better way forward—far better than the Opposition's plan, which seems to be to dust off some of their more ancient pieces of artillery left over from 1970 and make a planned industrial offensive. Of course it is right to highlight any individual or collective cases of folly and excessive abuse of power—evils that the great majority of trade unionists deplore, just as much as do the rest of the community. But for the Conservative Party to highlight and exploit individual cases as a means of driving the trade union movement, in general, into a corner, tarring all the 11 million members of unions with the same brush, is a dangerous miscalculation.
  The 1980s will not be the occasion for an action replay of the Tories' misjudgments of the beginning of the 1970s. The agreement with the TUC will not be perfect, but it is an important step towards industrial peace and steadier prices. It is an agreement that deserves support, not sabotage.
  The right hon. Lady seemed to be under the impression that today she has been proposing some entirely new policies, making a new beginning. On the contrary, all that she was doing was to offer us the stale and outdated 1970 Conservative Party election manifesto.

  479
  I know that the Opposition want to forget the years 1970–74. The right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), the former leader of the party, is removed from Conservative Party collective thinking like Trotsky was blotted out of the photographs of the Stalin era. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  The Prune Minister: I admit that I am provoking them a little, Mr. Speaker.
  Indeed, if we are to judge from recent broadcasts, Conservative history ceased when Harold Macmillan stepped down as Prime Minister in 1963.
  Each of the main planks of the right hon. Lady's platform today was nailed down in the 1970 manifesto—cut taxes, curb the power of the trade unions, restore respect for law and order, full-hearted support for the European Community, and centralised power decentralised. It was all there.
  What was the result when they were elected? Property speculators were given a free hand—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition was heard in silence.
  The Prime Minister: As I was saying, property speculators were given a free hand, credit control was abolished, and the money supply was increased to finance some pretty phoney finance companies. The Conservatives opened up one of the most discreditable periods in the history of the City of London. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hodge."] I would not advise any hon. Member to say that outside.
  I know that many of the reputable companies in the City look back on that period with great distaste. Now some of the speculators are emerging from their holes, rubbing their hands once again. I warn them not to count their chickens before their cheques bounce.
  The Conservatives failed, when they were in Government, to safeguard our greatest national asset—North Sea oil. They handed out the assets to the oil companies with unparalleled generosity. They would have let the revenues from oil slip through their fingers. They left gaping loopholes in the rules governing corporation tax paid by the oil companies. They
  480
  did not even negotiate an arrangement to ensure that the United Kingdom, the home country, would ensure for itself a substantial proportion of the oil that was produced. We had to put all this right when a Labour Government came to office, and through the participation agreements this country can now be sure of safeguarding for our own use a substantial proportion of the oil that is pumped.
  On the other side of the coin, the Tories' doctrinaire approach to industrial relations left an Act of Parliament which, as the CBI spokesman told us, was surrounded by hatred, and where every relationship was sullied by its provisions. That, too, we have had to put right.
  The right hon. Lady calls for less government at local level. Does she really think we have forgotten the handiwork of the right hon. Members for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and for Worcester (Mr. Walker)? Let her reflect, when she calls for less burueacracy, that local authority manpower between 1970 and 1974 increased by nearly 300,000—the biggest increase in bureaucracy ever in any comparable period.
  In the Health Service the right hon. Member for Leeds North-East achieved the unenviable double of setting up a new form of organisation that was unsuited to the needs of the Service and at the same time of dramatically increasing the numbers working in the administration. It does not lie in the mouths of the Opposition to call for a reduction in bureaucracy, or for the right hon. Lady to speak, as she did at Solihull, of Whitehall strangling local democracy.
  The right hon. Lady complains about inflation, and justifiably so. So do I, regularly. At 9·6 per cent. it is higher than it should be, but we have brought it down from 25 per cent. What happened between 1970 and 1974? It more than doubled. Today, the figure that is complained of is lower than when the Conservative Party left office.
  On the question of monetary policy, let me give the figures. We are being invited today to go back to the old remedies. Between 1970 and 1974, the average annual increase in the money supply was 21 to 22 per cent. a year. Under this Government the average is about 9 per cent. a year. When the Conservatives were in power they got rid

  481
  of the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation. This time they want to hamstring the National Enterprise Board. They intend to cut public expenditure. They keep saying so. What do they propose to do? Do they propose to stop the National Enterprise Board funding the new Rolls-Royce aero-engines? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer".] There are more questions yet. Let us have a compendium. Do they intend to cut the Euopean airbus? Will they stop the production of the new HS146 aicraft? Is it the youth employment schemes that are to go? Is it the Welsh Development Agency or the Scottish Development Agency, which is at the moment backing 9,000 jobs with £20 million of investment?
  Is it the new social benefits that we have introduced that are to go or the mobility allowance for the disabled, the invalid care allowance, or help to disabled housewives? I make no mention of school milk.
  Since we came into office the average number of patients on each doctor's list has declined. Are the numbers to be allowed to swell again when public expenditure is cut?
  The numbers of people served by home helps have increased. The meals on wheels service has been enlarged.
  Are these to be cut back? Or is it the rebuilding of our cities? Would they tamper with the child benefit scheme, whose allowance is to be increased from £3 to £4 per week from 1 April?
  What about the pensioners? During the Conservatives' term of office pensioners' living standards fell behind those of the population who were working. By contrast, this Government have steadily improved the real position of the pensioner year by year, by increasing the pension by whichever has been the higher of the forecast earnings or the forecast prices. That is now a statutory responsibility. It has improved the standard of life of the pensioner after he or she retires, by comparison with the wage earner.
  Let me give the figures. When the Conservative party left office the pensioner's proportion of the net earnings of a married male manual worker was 40 per cent. Today the pensioner's proportion of the same net earnings of the male
  482
  married manual worker is 50 per cent.—an increase in real standards. We shall fulfil our statutory obligations again this year.
  This is the season of Estimates and revenue. Yesterday we debated expenditure on the Armed Forces for the coming year. Today I should like to inform the House of the estimate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for old-age pensions for the coming year. First, he has provided for a correction to the underestimate in the forecast made this time a year ago—a question that has been raised on a number of occasions by hon. Members on both sides, but mainly from Government supporters, I grant. Let us associate the Conservatives with this. Do not let them escape their share of the responsibility.
  Earnings last year rose faster than the forecast on which the Chancellor based his uprating at that time. He has taken account of this in the new increase that will operate for the next pension year from November. For a marired couple, therefore, he has provided for an increase in the pension next November of about £4 a week to around £35, and for a single person of about £2·50 per week, to about £22. That is provided in the Estimates. That will be one more important step to reduce the gaps that still exist in our society—to remedy the injustices, to erase the class divisions and racial bigotry, to attack poverty and the lack of opportunity that still face many of our citizens. The difference between the Opposition and the Government is that we know that these problems will not be solved by a return to those policies of 1970 or by soup-kitchen social services. They will be overcome only if we harness the energy and the ideals of our people to build a fairer and more just society.
  Let need, not greed, be our motto. Our purpose as a Government and as a party is to present a bold, Socialist challenge to all these problems as we face these tasks. I ask for the confidence of the House and of the country so that we may continue with our work. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that hon. Members have conveyed their message.
  Mr. John Stokes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have just received a message that—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must listen, or they will never hear the message.
  Mr. Stokes: I have just received a message that the State dinner that you were to give tonight to a foreign parliamentary delegation has been cancelled due to industrial action. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Even making allowances for the excitement in the House, hon. Members should listen to the hon. Gentleman while he makes his point of order.
  Mr. Stokes: Is that not a disgraceful state of affairs, and a reflection on the House? Should not the Leader of the House make a statement about it?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I call the Leader of the Liberal Party, Mr. David Steel.
  4.47 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: The news that we have just heard may mean that not so many hon. Members will rush for the cup of tea that is traditional at this point in confidence motion debates as there is no tea available.
  I take the view that this debate is not about the relative merits of the political parties. That debate will take place during the general election. What we must decide tonight is whether we believe that the time has come for a general election.
  It is certainly our intention to cast our votes tonight as we have done consistently since November on confidence issues in pursuit of an early general election. I have never made any secret of the fact, either privately or publicly, that it was our view that an election should have been held last autumn when Parliament had completed four years of its life and when it was shown that there was no long-term common ground to enable us to continue the Lib-Lab agreement. I believed, therefore, that from October onwards the Government would inevitably be lacking in political stability. I argued then that that was our opportunity to take our different views to the electorate.
  Everything that has happened since October adds weight to the case for fixed Parliaments, as in most of the other developed democracies. General election
  484
  date speculation is one of the few growth occupations in Britain today, absorbing politicians, journalists and bookmakers, but, far more seriously, disrupting industry and commerce. That process is damaging, and the case has been increasingly made out for moving to a fixed-term Parliament rather than leaving the decision in the hands of one individual.
  It will be obvious to everybody in this House that there are only two Lobbies. Although the Prime Minister had his fun at our expense, I have to make it absolutely clear, in view of some of the letters I have been receiving in the past couple of days, that there is no question, in our voting for a general election tonight, of appearing to be voting in any way for the Conservative Party, simply because—[Interruption.] I have had a large number of letters in the last few days from members of the Labour Party, from members of my own party, and even, surprisingly, from members of the Conservative Party, who say"You should not vote for an election now because there might be a large Conservative majority, and how terrible that would be for the country." I am against that attitude. I do not believe in opinion polls. I believe in the electorate's decision. If the electorate happens to vote for a large Conservative majority, the electorate will have to live with the consequences of that. I shall do my best during a general election campaign to dissuade the electorate from that course.
  But fear of any possible political outcome of a general election is not ground for allowing the present parliamentary state of affairs to continue. The Government have been seen to be staggering on. Vast attention is paid outside to speeches made at the weekend, such as that by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), wanting pipelines to Ulster. Issues such as the compensation to the slate quarrymen ought to be discussed on their merits and not on the basis of whether three hon. Members might or might not be in a particular Lobby.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: I apologise for interrupting. The right hon. Gentleman might be interested to know, in view of the context in which he was placing this matter, that the recommendation for a connection, by way of a gas pipeline, between Great Britain and

  485
  Northern Ireland has been made consistently by members of my party for at least the past three years.
  Mr. Steel: I dare say it has, but the right hon. Gentleman, of all people, was not born yesterday. He read the reports of his own speech, as I did, and he knows in what context they were placed.
  I also believe that the decision we have to take tonight is not about devolution. Again, the Prime Minister is entitled to have his fun, but we have always taken the view that the future of devolution and the future of the Government are two entirely separate questions. It is our view that, whatever happens, whether we have an election now and there is a change of Government or whether the Labour Party is returned, the only way that we can make progress on devolution is through some form of all-party consultations, following the referendum.
  We know that it is essential to find a parliamentary solution to the question of devolution, because we have the lesson of Ireland before us. Parliament failed to find an acceptable solution, and over the years we had the bitterness, the bloodshed, and eventually the separation of a great part of Ireland. Surely we want to try to avoid that, and the right way forward is for us to engage in constructive discussion. But no one—not even the Prime Minister—seriously believes that there is the remotest prospect in the lifetime of this Parliament of either passing the order through both Houses to bring the present Act into effect, or passing an amending Act to make the proposal more acceptable to the people of Scotland. It cannot be done, and therefore, although it will be quite proper, if the Government win tonight, to continue with the process of all-party discussions, they will have to be carried forward through a general election and into the next Parliament.
  I only wish that the Leader of the Opposition were more forthcoming now with her views on devolution, post-referendum, because the Conservative Party will have to find a policy on this issue during the election, and certainly it will have to find one if it ever forms a Government. We separate, therefore, the question of the future of devolution from the question of the future of the Government.
  486
  The two other party leaders have already dwelt on their record. It is perhaps unusual for the Leader of the Liberal Party in modern times to be talking of the record of the Liberal Party, but I intend to do so, because I believe that the record shows that the period of greatest success in modern government was the period of the Lib-Lab agreement. [Interruption.] Yes, I say that, and I shall show why.
  First, during that period we had a Labour Government in office, but Left-wing Socialism had to be abandoned for that period; therefore there was a degree of political stability and a process of government of this country from the centre. That in itself was beneficial.
  Second, let us look at the figures of inflation. The Opposition made great play the other week, with some justification, of the fact that if we apply the Healey formula to inflation—that is, the figure for the last three months expressed as an annual rate—it comes out at 13·3 per cent. for the last three months. But the Conservatives have to remember their own record as well. In the last three months that they were in office, the equivalent figure was 18 per cent. It rose during the period of Tory government from 5 per cent. in 1970 to 18 per cent. by the time they left office.
  Taking the same formula, in the three months before the Lib-Lab pact, inflation had gone up to 21 per cent., but it was during the Lib-Lab period of government that the inflation level came down to 7·4 per cent. Since then, as we know, sadly, it has gone up again.
  Mr. Phillip Whitehead: If the right hon. Gentleman is in favour of fixed-term Parliaments, and the Lib-Lab pact was a very good thing, why did he not continue it for the full duration of this Parliament?
  Mr. Steel: We have debated this issue before, but the simple reason is that there was no long-term basis of agreement between the two parties. That is why I said that we should take our different views to the electorate. I will be specific. One particular issue—we have since been justified by events—on which we felt quite strongly was that there was no sign that the Government would be able to maintain as effective a pay policy as during

  487
  the previous period. Labour Members know that to be true.
  Let us consider the level of mortgage rates. At present the rate is 11¾ per cent. During the last general election campaign, the right hon. Lady, now the Leader of the Opposition, promised that if a Conservative Government were returned, mortgages would be pegged at 9¾ per cent.; yet when the Conservatives left office, mortgage rates were at 11 per cent. Under the Labour Government they went up to 12¼ per cent. In the period of the Lib-Lab pact they were down to 8½ per cent. If we use those figures as a yardstick, we were more successful—[Interruption.] Hon. Members may not like the facts, but I am quoting the facts. I believe that the Lib-Lab pact was important and provided a better way of running the country.
  My third argument is that we saw in that period the start of some injection of Liberal influence for the first time into the government of the country.
  I mention the specific issue of the legislation last April on profit sharing. It has taken a year for this to come into effect, but already 48 companies have adopted the profit-sharing proposals of last year's Finance Act. Recently the City editor of The Observer wrote:
  "Such schemes will help to bring about a closer harmony between employees and management. That will be to the whole community's advantage. In fact, even at this early stage, companies with such schemes report a greater profit consciousness among employees."
  That was a very modest start in the direction in which the House ought to be travelling. It is absolutely essential that we link future pay policy in the private sector to actual profits and productivity, because that is the only way in which we shall succeed in creating a healthy and successful private sector with which to sustain the public sector.
  In the public sector it will be necessary to have, as the Prime Minister said, a consensus between Government, unions and employers, but that consensus must be a long-lasting one. Great damage has been done to pay policy by chopping and changing between Governments and within Governments. The Prices and Incomes Board was set up and then abolished. The Relativities Board was set up and
  488
  abolished. Now we have the comparability Commission.
  How much better it would have been—and how much fairer to groups which have suffered from the chopping and changing in pay policy—if we had had one body in the public sector operating continuously through changes of Government. The seesaw in pay policy has been most damaging to the country and most unfair to certain groups which were caught in the changes of policy.
  This is the direction in which we want to move. But I do not believe that it is a direction in which we can move as a country as long as the two sides in our political system are financed by the two sides of our industrial conflict.
  In a speech the other day, the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition urged the electorate to "break with the recent past," but it is an illusion to believe that the problems of this country all began in recent years since the Conservative Party was last in office. Relatively speaking, compared with our European neighbours, we have been steadily sliding down the scale of success and prosperity as a nation ever since the early 1950s, and to pretend otherwise is to try to delude the electorate. I believe that to a considerable extent that is due to the political system that we operate in marked contradistinction to most of our European neighbours.
  This Parliament finds itself stuck on devolution, stuck on tax reform and stuck on pay policy, and on industrial relations policy it is not only stuck but is sub-contracting its responsibilities to groups outside Parliament.
  This, therefore, is the case for a fresh Parliament. I believe that the electors of Liverpool, Edge Hill will point to a better way tomorrow. I think that there is a better way of running Britain, and the sooner the rest of the country is given the opportunity for it, the better.
  5.1 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Stewart: The Scottish National Party tabled a motion of no confidence in the Government because of the Government's refusal to honour their manifesto commitment to the Scottish people. However, the Scottish National Party has other areas of dispute with the Government on which

  489
  we lack confidence in the Government, and I shall deal with those presently.
  The reality of the political situation in Scotland is that a majority voted "Yes" for a Scottish Assembly and that Scottish Assembly is not being delivered. We have heard some complaints during and since the campaign that only about 30 per cent. of the people voted in favour of an Assembly. There were complaints from the "No" campaigners that those in favour of a "Yes" vote were claiming that an abstention meant"No ". Whether or not that was true, it certainly appears to be the case subsequently when we hear the figures being totalled up and the claim made that only one-third of the people of Scotland voted for the Assembly. Of those who turned out, there was a clear majority for a "Yes" vote. That is the reality of the situation, and that is the system by which such decisions have been made both in this House and at elections generally.
  Whichever party wins the next election—be it the party of the Prime Minister or that of the Leader of the Opposition—and no matter how small the percentage, it is fair to assume that there will be no great rush of people to work out with computers whether it has a 40 per cent. backing. It will nip smartly into No. 10 and claim that it has a mandate to carry out whichever of its doctrinal policies it was elected on. If the events of the last five years have proved anything, they have proved that the London-based parties cannot be trusted to look after Scotland's interests.
  As the Prime Minister said yesterday, devolution has been a question in Scotland for at least 10 years. Yet, although every political party on the Scottish scene went into the last election committed to an Assembly, all that happened after the election was that there were more talks and more White Papers. We then had the first Scotland and Wales Bill, which was killed off. After that we had the Scotland Bill and the 40 per cent. provision was inserted. Now that the campaign in favour was successful, Westminster wants to kill the Scotland Act.
  I take the Prime Minister's point about the right hon. Lady's lack of any commitment to devolution. I do not expect any commitment from her. However, she will have to live in the real world, assum-
  490
  ing that she is returned after the next election. The Scottish people will educate her if she happens to be at No. 10 Downing Street at that time. The problem will not go away. It will be lodged on her desk and will have to be dealt with.
  Incidentally, in view of the line that he took in the referendum campaign, the noble Lord Home has a moral obligation to ensure that something emerges from the Conservatives which is better than the Government's Act. They all said that it was a bad Act. It was far from perfect, and we agreed that it was far from perfect, but it was made a bad Act by many of the people who were making that claim because they tore it to pieces in its passage through the House. It was made worse than it was originally.
  The Labour Government have made no real attempt to deal with Scotland's persistently lower living standards and poorer social conditions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford) pointed out in the debate on public expenditure, Scotland has a better export performance than the United Kingdom as a whole. The chairman of the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) stated recently:
  "Between 1974 and 1977, exports from Scotland rose by 24 per cent. in real terms compared with 14 per cent. for the United Kingdom as a whole."
  The latest report by Reward Regional Surveys Ltd.—an independent consumer research organisation—shows that the cost of living in Scotland is 4·5 per cent. above the United Kingdom average and that the cost of consumer goods is higher in Scotland.
  Scottish families are double losers in the price war. Although the cost of basic items such as food, household goods and transport is higher in Scotland than the United Kingdom average, the Government's own family expenditure survey shows that Scottish family incomes are considerably lower than they are in other parts of the United Kingdom. Retail prices in Scotland have risen by more than 10p in the pound in the past year—again, the biggest increase in the United Kingdom. Despite all this, it has taken considerable pressure from my party and a good deal of work by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East

  491
  (Mrs. Bain) to get the Government grudgingly to agree to an investigation into prices in Scotland.
  The Government have a dreadful record on inflation. When the Prime Minister made the point about a reduction in the figure, the question was well put as to who had raised it to a high level in the first place. Despite the present temporary drop in inflation, the plain fact is that the value of the pound has more than halved in the five years that this Government have been in office.
  What are the Government doing in the face of this situation? Scotland is being starved of Government expenditure. Indeed, the White Paper, approved by the House on 19 March, envisages a lower level of public expenditure in Scotland than in the United Kingdom as a whole. The five-year growth rate for the United Kingdom has been set at 10 per cent. while the corresponding growth rate projected for Scotland between 1979–80 and 1982–83 is only 6·4 per cent.
  In addition, Scotland receives far less than her fair share in such areas as the nationalised industries, defence and foreign affairs. There is scarcely any money in the forward planning for roads between now and 1983—a glaring omission at a time when Scotland needs additional infrastructure to back up the oil and other industries.
  I end by returning to the question of Scottish government. I say to the Government and to the Conservatives that the Scottish desire for self-government is alive and thriving. Resentment is growing at the apparent wish of the majority here to frustrate that desire and to make divisions in Scotland. There can be no excuse of a bad Act, no all-party talks as a further exercise of futility and no propaganda that tries to turn a majority vote into a minority.
  These do not take a trick any longer. It is a pity that more Labour MPs do not back their own party policy and legislation, and the Government may have to pay the price.
  5.9 p.m.
  Miss Joan Lestor: As I was once a member of the Government but left of my own free will, I do not think that anyone can accuse me of trying to suck up to any Prime Minister.
  492
  Having listened to the opening speech of the Prime Minister and that of the Leader of the Opposition, and casting my mind back to the build-up to this debate and how the Prime Minister would be annihilated by the Opposition, all I can say is that if ever a condemned man shot the firing squad, he did.
  This debate is supposed to be about devolution and the record of the Government. Whatever the arguments in that respect, the performance of the Leader of the Opposition, in what I understood was supposed to be her moment of triumph, must have been disappointing to almost everyone who listened to it. I was certainly disappointed.
  I want to refer, first, to why this debate is being held and, secondly, to several other matters that were raised. We are, allegedly, having this debate on the question of devolution, and we are told that the Government have not brought forward their devolution plans. It seems that history is being rewritten as the debate goes on. I was never a supporter of devolution, and I still reserve my position on the subject. Leaving aside the arguments for or against devolution, the Government have done their best since the referendum to abide by the decision of the House that 40 per cent. of the people must be in favour of it, and they have also tried to bear in mind the aspirations of a minority of the people of Scotland. That is what we are talking about.
  In that situation, it seems incomprehensible that those who believe in devolution should now want to throw out a Government who have done their best to reconcile two opposing forces in this way. I do not believe that they will succeed in throwing out the Government, but if they do they will give support to a Leader of the Opposition who has no devolution policy at all, except that she is opposed to it. I find that totally and utterly irreconcilable. However, that decision is up to those who support devolution.
  We have also heard comments about the Government not giving support to Scotland. That is not true. The amount of financial support that the Government have given Scotland has been greater than that given by any other Government in this century. Many people in constituencies such as mine ask "What about other areas of the country?"
  Mr. Gordon Wilson Mr. Gordon Wilson rose—
  Miss Lestor: No, I shall not give way. I believe that some of Scotland's problems are tremendous. That is why many Scots come to my constituency, as do the Welsh, looking for, and finding, work. In no way do I deny the problems of Scotland and Wales, because they exist, but it seems a strange way to try to solve them by moving away from the very Government who say"All right, devolution has not won the day, but there are recognisable aspirations of a minority of Scots and we shall try to find a way round the problem".
  Mr. Donald Stewart: We had a majority.
  Miss Lestor: The right hon. Gentleman should not try to rewrite history. The vote that took place in Scotland was not in accordance with what was agreed by this House. [Interruption.] Scottish National Party Members are supporting a Conservative Opposition who talk about law and order, but they are not very good advertisements for it. Why do they not just keep quiet for a moment?
  The whole devolution argument was bound to lose out because it was taken in isolation from, and not in conjunction with, the whole question of the reorganisation of government in England, Scotland and Wales. That is where we went wrong. If we again. have the discussions and the argument, and if we consider in conjunction with that the appalling situation facing local government and the aspirations of a minority of the people of Scotland, and a smaller minority of the people of Wales, I believe that we can reach some sort of compromise that will be acceptable to all of us.
  I move to a couple of other matters to which I wish to refer briefly. The right hon. Lady spent very little time on devolution, but, as she said, this debate is really not about that subject. It really revolves around whether the right hon. Lady can defeat the Government tonight so that an election can take place. I hope that the Government are not defeated, but I also hope that we shall have an election very soon. The right hon. Lady has stated the grounds on which the election campaign will be fought. I should be very happy to fight on those grounds.
  494
  It was interesting that there was not a word in her speech about the EEC. I wonder why. Is it the Conservative Opposition's policy that we give up and stop arguing about the CAP or the budget? Nothing was said in that regard. [Interruption.] I do not know whether hon. Members are waving to me, or what they are trying to do. [HON. MEMBERS: "Wave back."] I shall not wave back. I believe that the EEC will dominate an election campaign more than questions of devolution, whether or not hon. Members wish that to be the case.
  The right hon. Lady was asked some pertinent questions. She was asked how she would deal with the present wage disputes and how she would meet them. We had no answer on that. Yet the Conservative Opposition say that they want no Government interference in wage bargaining.
  As I have said, I should welcome an election campaign because I believe that the ground has been set for one. The question of devolution has been ducked and the issue of the EEC has been abandoned. In addition, various statements have been made in recent months by Conservative Members, and I assume that we shall take them up as time goes on. There is the public expenditure argument. I am amazed at how people can talk about law and order on the one hand and less public expenditure on the other. In my view, the whole question of public expenditure on education, welfare services and on our whole social structure is bound up with law and order. It is bound up with the sort of society that one builds and the aspirations and hopes of that society. It is incomprehensible to me how one can talk about cutting public expenditure on the one hand and law and order on the other.
  There have been statements about taxing social security benefits for families of strikers. Opposition Members have stated that there will be no benefits for families of strikers. We have also heard statements about anti-trade union legislation. All these flags and kites have been flown over the past few months.
  The right hon. Lady today spelt out the grounds on which she would want to fight an election campaign. I, for one, and I think that I speak for large numbers of Labour Party members, would

  495
  be happy to take on the Conservative Opposition on those grounds. I believe that the Conservatives make a tremendous mistake. The Labour Government have demonstrated one thing very clearly, and it is something that is recognised by large sections of working men and women in the country. It is that when the Tories talk about cutting public expenditure they do not mean on defence or on some of the things that I and my hon. Friends mean. They mean cutting back on those social services and benefits that are part of the social wage for ordinary men and women. That message has got through to the ordinary man and woman. They know that when the Tories talk about cutting public expenditure they mean cutting back on the social and real wages of the ordinary working people. That is an argument that we are prepared to meet.
  In view of the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and in view also of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, I believe that the Government will win tonight. But, win or lose, I hope that there will be a general election very soon. I hope that we shall force the Conservatives to fight on the grounds that have been selected by the right hon. Lady. When the Government fight on their record and on questions such as unemployment, public expenditure and the EEC, I believe that the electorate will again vote a Labour Government into power.
  5.20 p.m.
  Mr. Gwynfor Evans: A week ago the position of my two colleagues in Plaid Cymru and myself was that we would vote in the earliest motion of confidence against the Government and for the Opposition. We had very good reasons and had drafted our own motion of censure which we intended setting down following that of the SNP. We wanted then, and still want, to place on record our disgust with the way in which the Government have fumbled clumsily and sometimes disastrously with the life of Wales. Not a single aspect of Welsh life is stronger because of the activity of this Labour Government.
  I refer to employment. When the Labour Party came to power in March 1974, there were 38,000 people unemployed in Wales. Today, the figure is
  496
  88,452—an increase of 230 per cent. This is a tremendous waste of human resources at a time when so much work needs to be done in the country. Even now, there is a declining number of jobs for unemployed people in our country.
  The Government decided on withdrawal of an active regional policy. The regional premium came to an end in 1976, the IDC policy has become worthless, and, when London found itself needing jobs, regional policy was effectively abandoned. The Government have also consistently refused to draw up an economic plan for Wales.
  The Government have failed to give a lead towards a new industrial order—we had expected that—based on co-operation and harmony, and a common purpose in industry, which should be the objective, of industrial democracy. This has not happened. Part of the consequence has been the industrial chaos seen this winter. The period of the last Labour Government between 1964 and 1970 saw one coal mine closed in Wales for every seven weeks of that period. The Government still intend to allow the closure of coal mines in Wales. We have had notice that a number whose stocks have not been depleted are to be closed. The subsidy for coal in Wales is only £3 a ton compared with £11·93 a ton in Germany and £24·60 a ton in Belgium.
  Looking at the steel industry, one notes that the promised investment in Port Talbot has been suspended, with the result that uncertainty looms over its future. Shotton is now following East Moors and Ebbw Vale as a victim of the Government's failure to provide conditions suitable for the survival of these basic industries.
  We have one of the worst housing records in the United Kingdom. We have an older stock of houses in Wales than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Houses are in great need of repair and replacement, but public expenditure on housing in Wales has actually been reduced below the United Kingdom average. It was only 3·9 per cent. of the United Kingdom average last year. There are now 107,000 houses in Wales condemned as unfit for human habitation, with over 50,000 families on the housing waiting list. Yet, with a job on this scale to be carried out, 15,000 building workers are unemployed. Effectively, no

  497
  leasehold reforms of any value have been enacted.
  My constituency is particularly interested in agriculture, but the Government have failed abysmally to fulfil the plans set out in their pamphlet "Food from Our Own Resources". Half the growth sectors identified in that White Paper have seen a decline in production. There has been no serious attempt to establish effective policies for marginal land, of which we have such a great quantity in Wales. Marginal land development is essential to increased food production in our country.
  Morale in the health services has declined sharply because of mismanagement and bureaucratic structures unresponsive to human needs. Adequate resources have not been made available, with the result that the level of service in hospitals has dropped and waiting lists have escalated. In the largest hospital in my constituency, with 560 beds, we do not even possess a unit for intensive care. Insufficient nurses is a situation found in so many places in our country.
  In education, there has been a failure to use teachers who have been trained in great numbers in our country, with the ridiculous consequence that hundreds of teachers are on the dole while many schools have classes that are far too large to enable the children to be taught properly. Virtually no lead has been given in what should be the right of all Welsh people to have their children educated in the Welsh language, both in primary schools and secondary schools. The Government have taken no step towards the achievement of this right. We have a higher proportion of pre-1903 school buildings than any other country in Britain. Yet too little money is spent on improving the standard of school buildings.
  On taxation, the Government have allowed inflation to increase faster than the rise in the threshold level for payment of income tax, with the result that people on very low incomes, even pensioners, find themselves paying tax.
  In broadcasting, despite the commitment of the Government for years past to establish in Wales the fourth channel as a national Welsh channel, no effective steps have yet been taken to that end.
  498
  This means that the language is being more rapidly eroded than it should be eroded—a language that is the greatest treasure we possess in Wales, one of the greatest treasures in the whole of these islands. The Government have made no attempt at all to implement the fine recommendations of their own Welsh Language Council. It has now been disbanded. Not one of its recommendations has been fulfilled.
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: Do not vote for them.
  Mr. Evans: A body must be set up to supervise the recommendations when they are implemented and to start a new wave of sympathy and support for the language in Wales. This is a matter of basic importance for the future of our society and community.
  In communications, Wales lags badly behind both Scotland and England in the quality of its principal roads which are so necessary to balanced industrial development. Not one mile of railway in Wales has been electrified compared with over 2,000 miles electrified in England. The Government have failed to grasp the opportunity offered by Air Wales to establish an air service network in Wales. The great potential of the Welsh ports has also been ignored.
  On constitutional issues, the Government have failed to present proposals for greater democratic control of government in Wales that were acceptable to the people of Wales. Nor have they succeeded in correcting the failures of the Tories in their Local Government Act 1972. Under this Government, the rate support grant paid to the counties in Wales which are non-metropolitan has been eroded, with the resources transferred to the inner cities of England. This has resulted in a mean rate increase of 24 per cent. for the coming year in Wales. [Interruption.] These matters may appear unimportant to hon. Gentlemen who represent English constituencies—
  Mr. Cormack: Not at all.
  Mr. Evans: Despite a pretence of an equalisation of water charges between Wales and England, water rates in Wales still remain 58 per cent. higher. [HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."] The inequitable system of charging for water on the basis of rateable value remains. The

  499
  Government have consistently disallowed to Wales the right that she should enjoy of selling the water that flows from Wales to English industrial conurbations.
  Faced with that situation and the needs in Wales that have been neglected, we intended to vote against the Government. However, a week ago today we were offered the possibility of an Act that would create new conditions for quarrymen in Wales and for many others suffering from dust diseases. I know something of the problem. I know how desperately we need a humanitarian measure for those suffering from dust diseases. In my constituency there are many who suffer from silicosis, pneumoconiosis and emphysema. I have seen them struggling painfully step by step up a small incline, having to stop every two or three steps because of the trouble that they have in drawing breath. Sometimes these men are in their thirties and forties. I have been with others who have been bedridden, gasping for breath and trying to speak a few hoarse words while alongside them there has been an oxygen system to keep them alive a little longer.
  Although the Government, the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers have produced an inadequately funded system to help pneumoconiotic coal miners and their dependants, there are victims of such diseases in other industries who have not received anything like adequate compensation, if any compensation at all. In my constituency there are men who have worked in stone or other quarries, in brickworks and iron foundries. There are amongst them those who suffer from respiratory diseases. There are others who have worked in asbestos works. Those who have worked in the cotton mills of Lancashire are aware of byssinosis.
  The largest group for which my two colleagues and others have worked so hard is composed of quarrymen. Although the number of quarrymen has declined from 20,000 to 300, there are still about 1,000 men who suffer from silicosis. There are about 1,000 widows of those who died from the disease. Throughout the years they have been shockingly neglected. Some newspapers have alleged that their number is negligible in British terms and that my hon. Friends and I have been bought too cheaply. Those words have
  500
  been used. Those who speak in that way do not appreciate the value of each human life. France was brought to the verge of civil war because of the fate of one man, Dreyfus.
  Whatever electoral cost we may have to pay—I have no doubt that there will be some electoral cost for the line we shall take tonight—we feel that it is right to obtain the best possible scheme for those suffering from dust diseases. The Government have provided such a scheme. The Bill has been published, it is available in the Vote Office, and its terms satisfy us.
  Mr. John Page: The hon. Gentleman said a short while ago—this is what I think he said—that last week he was approached. He may have said"we were approached ". I believe that those were his words. Will he elaborate on them? They do not quite tie up with what the Prime Minister said.
  Mr. J. W. Rooker: What about the Opposition Front Bench?
  Mr. Evans: A statement was made by the Government that a Bill would be introduced. The Government did not approach us directly.
  Whatever the electoral cost that we may have to bear, we believe that we must obtain the best possible scheme. The Government have produced that scheme. We wish to achieve the earliest possible compensation for the sufferers, widows and dependants. We take the view that every week matters. The Government have guaranteed that the Bill will pass through all its stages, if they remain in power, before the middle of May, and that compensation will be paid in October. For these reasons alone, my two colleagues and I have decided to vote in the Government Lobby tonight.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Buchan: I do not object to hearing hypocritical speeches from the Opposition Front Bench. I am accustomed to that. However, in a set piece debate of this sort I resent strongly an inept, hypocritical speech from the Opposition Front Bench. The speech of the Leader of the Opposition was a disgrace. It contained

  501
  not one idea, let alone a constructive idea. It helped to expose the shoddiness of the manoeuvres in which the Opposition have been engaged for the past couple of weeks.
  It is a shoddy manoeuvre when a Tory Opposition use the trigger of the Scottish National Party to try to defeat the only Government who can introduce elements of democratisation, devolution and decentralisation. The Tories know that it is hypocritical. They did not even have the skill or the ideas to cover the hypocrisy.
  The right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition said that the Conservative Party is in favour, basically, of two policies. First, it is in favour of tax cuts. Secondly, it wants more money to put on law and order. We have had enough of that from the Tory Party. I have listed about half a dozen massive commitments to public expenditure that have been entered into by the Tories. In contrast to those commitments, the right hon. Lady says blatantly that the Opposition are in favour of tax cuts.
  I take only one example of the commitments of the Tories. Their pledge on defence spending will extend to an increase of about £2,000 million or £3,000 million. If the Tories happen, through ill luck or by a peculiarity in the operation of the lifts as Mr. Speaker suggested, to win the vote tonight, I give the assurance that they will be smashed in the country, especially in the regions of Scotland and England where the hypocrisy of the Tory Party has been seen and exposed over the years.
  The debate is not about shoddy manoeuvres but about great issues to which the Tory Party has not even yet begun to apply itself. A harbinger of the consequences of a Tory victory to-night, and, even more appalling, a possible Tory victory in the next election, was the hysterical scene on the floor of the London Stock Exchange last Thursday. That was an example of the sort of society that Tories want to introduce. Of course, the Tories will receive a majority from those who operate on the floor of the Stock Exchange. That is an area where no wealth is created and where no intelligence is put into industry or the economy. The opportunity of an apparent crisis was used to make specu-
  502
  lative profits. That is the basic policy of the Tory Party. That was demonstrated by the hysteria of the Stock Exchange last week.
  We are in a period of technological change. The effect of the change is to put more and more power into fewer and fewer hands. In 1910 about 15 per cent. of the gross national product was controlled by the top 100 companies. That is not many companies wielding that power. By 1950 about 20 per cent. of the GNP was controlled by the top 100 companies. However, in the following 20 years there was a rapid increase in the trend and two-thirds of our economy was then in the hands of only 100 companies. Those 100 companies were interconnected through directorships and directors.
  There has therefore been a massive accretion of dominant power in fewer and fewer hands. That has taken place on the eve of the greatest technological leap forward that we have yet made. We are no longer introducing machines to be worked by men. We are bringing in machines that will operate other machines. Professor Freeman, when addressing the British Association, said Harold Wilson was not wrong in 1964, when talking about the consequences of technology, to say that it would be one of the crucial issues in the performance of the British economy. He added:
  "Where his government failed and where all other post-war governments have failed, was in the resolute pursuit of an industrial and economic strategy which would have made it possible to carry through this technological revolution, which is needed today more than ever."
  We need a rejigging of our economy on Socialist lines not for any ideological purpose but because that is the only way in which we can satisfy democracy within our country. We either leave power in the hands of fewer and fewer people or we say that Socialism is no longer just an ideological concept It is now necessary to take this under the democratic control of the people.
  These are the issues behind tonight's discussion, not the tawdry manoeuvres of the Tory Party and the SNP on a single issue vote. We cannot tolerate a situation in which companies, through the new technologies and for profit, put 2 million, 3 million or 5 million people out of work.

  503
  Society must have the economic power to control such a situation.
  The Tories are using the trigger of the SNP to try to create a Stock Exchange society. The Tories have waited—willing to move and afraid to strike—and now use the SNP as a most dishonourable trigger.
  The right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) said that the demand for independence, which he uses as an excuse for entering into an alliance with a party that is pledged to destroy any changes or any extension of democracy, was alive and thriving. I have news for him. There was a by-election last night in East Kilbride. I shall give him the figures.
  In 1977, only two years ago, the SNP gained 65 per cent. of the vote in that area. It polled 1,155 votes against Labour's 618. It beat us by nearly two to one. Last night Labour topped the poll with 45·8 per cent. The SNP had slumped to 39 per cent.—which is a turnover of about 30 per cent.—between 1977 and 1979. The fear of the SNP at present is the demand of the Scottish people that this kind of nonsense should stop.
  We, in association with our comrades throughout Great Britain, are looking at the task of extending democracy. I believe that one of the reasons for the failure in the referendum vote in Scotland was the fear of the Scottish people that the establishment of an Assembly would lead not to social or class politics but to national politics; that it would lead to clashes between Scotland and England, which had become polarised. As we pick up the bits and pieces after the referendum, we must not desert the concept of devolution and democracy.
  I believe, with Mao Tse-tung, that 100 flowers blossom, and I want to see the sense of nationhood blossom, but we must be careful that we do not allow that sense of nationhood to degenerate into a sense of polarisation and conflict between the nations of Great Britain. The common task is to extend democracy. The way forward is for us to recognise the fear of conflict between England and Scotland. There is no other explanation for the combination of the "No" vote and abstentions. We must try to advance on a much broader base.
  504
  I would prefer to see economic agencies throughout the regions of England so that arguments are not polarised between a Scottish Assembly and London about the economics of industry. There would be a centrifugal position in which different regions would be competing to achieve the best industrial development for themselves without creating a split.
  Several myths are being created. Our present problem in Scotland in relation to the referendum has nothing to do with the 40 per cent. rule. If I were the hon. Member who introduced that rule I should be wondering about the wisdom of having done that. There is no doubt that the exploitation of the 40 per cent. rule by those campaigning for a "Yes" vote led to the present situation. Many people believed the words of the various parties that an abstention equalled a "No" vote.
  I am not talking about the poll which was carried out to demonstrate that. We have the evidence from the people whom we meet day in and day out. Without the 40 per cent. rule, I believe that Scotland would have voted "No" in the referendum. So that rule boomeranged, as some of us warned it would. But that is not the issue. The issue is the indecisive nature of the vote—the 33 per cent. for, the 31 per cent. against, and the big abstention. I do not think that the situation can be recovered until we have reset the issue in the context of a wider extension of democracy in Scotland.
  The other myth being created is that which involves the so-called bad register. Last night the electoral broadcast by the SNP claimed that 300,000 names were left off the register, or were wrongly on the register, according to an authoritative examination. There was no such examination. That statement is SNP propaganda.
  The nearest thing to an authoritative examination was contained in a letter in The Scotsman yesterday. There the electoral registration officer for the Lothian region, Mr. J. S. Gardner, replying to the claim by the SNP that there had been an 18 per cent. error in the register, said that a Mr. Shirley, of the SNP, lodged 82 objections. Of these 19 were upheld, two were replaced, and 61 were withdrawn by Mr. Shirley because

  505
  he could not provide the necessary standard of proof. Mr. Gardner wrote:
  "If he could not press his objections successfully beyond a total of 19 in 22,856 names then I fail to understand how he can claim a surplus of 18 per cent. which would amount to 4,114 names."
  It is nonsense, and the myth must be destroyed. I hope that the Government will play their part in helping to destroy it.
  The other myth that is constantly peddled by the SNP is that there is greater poverty and economic deprivation in Scotland. This is an insult to the working people of Scotland. We would not have tolerated a lower standard of living and higher poverty. We have fought against that. SNP Members, when asked to support the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act, contemptuously tore up the telegrams of Scottish workers and strewed them throughout the House. They have no right to complain. They are not even right with their figures.
  I have looked at the average weekly earnings of men over 21 in Scotland and I find to my astonishment that in the industries covered by the Department of Employment Gazette the earnings of male manual workers over 21 in Scotland are not only higher than those in the United Kingdom as a whole, but higher than those in England. They are higher than in every region with the exception of the South-East and Greater London. That is another myth that we must knock on the head.
  The SNP believes so much in its own myths that its members sometimes table questions to prove their case. The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) asked the Secretary of State for Industry this week if he would list in the Official Report the number of employees in the Scottish shipyards since vesting day, and how many there were now. She asked that in the clear hope of proving that there had been an increase in unemployment. She was wrong. Since vesting day when the shipyards were taken into public ownership, the number of employees has increased by 500.
  If I recall correctly, the last time that we faced an unholy alliance between the SNP and the Tory Party in an attempt to defeat the Government was over the shipbuilding Bill. That Bill, which they sought to destroy, has increased em-
  506
  ployment in Scotland. Let us get rid of the myths and think our way through our problems.
  If SNP Members were genuinely concerned with the standard of life in Scotland they would have been here today. They are not even here to listen to their colleague, the leader of the Welsh national life party, who took an honourable and upright stance this afternoon. If the members of the SNP were concerned about the welfare of the people of Scotland, their jobs and the economy, they would not attempt to bring down a movement, a party and a Government who are pledged to extend economic well-being and democracy in Scotland. They have no case. I hope that the Scottish people will treat them with contempt.
  One famous Scottish song is entitled "Scotland the Brave." I deplore it. It arose out of a period in which the Scots were mobilised for war and imperialism. Another song has been written by an old jute mill worker in Dundee. She is still alive and she began work at 12 years of age. One of the verses of that song is:
  "Oh dear me, the world's ill divided. Them that work the hardest are aye the least provided."
  That common concept among the working people of Britain will survive not only tonight but will win a victory in the coming election. Let it come as soon as possible.
  5.51 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wood: I have never found either motions of confidence or motions of censure among the happiest or most inspiring parliamentary occasions. Nothing that I have heard in the last hour or so has deflected me from that view.
  In about four hours we shall take the decision, possibly by a handful of votes, whether to have an immediate general election or whether to wait a few weeks longer. I was encouraged by the last words of the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) in my hope that there will be no delay. It is rapidly becoming impossible, if it has not already become impossible, in this pre-election atmosphere for Britain to be governed with the necessary authority.
  Even if the Government Front Bench comprised a collection of archangels—and having examined them closely it is

  507
  difficult to see clearly those heavenly beings—I doubt whether in the present circumstances they could be followed with the seriousness which the Government should always be able to command.
  I say that not because of the present Government's lack of a proper majority, nor because of the mistakes that they have made in the last five years. I do not say it because, during the last five years, they have inflicted wounds upon Britain which will take a long time to heal; but I say that an election is necessary now because we appear to have reached the stage where, without an early election, substantial or recognisable progress is no longer possible. The case for an immediate election therefore rests less on Government mistakes than on the state of the nation, to which they and events have brought us. On this occasion, at least, my criticism of the Government will be muted, because my case in no way depends upon any shortcomings of which the Government are guilty.
  I fervently hope that I shall soon see my right hon. and hon. Friends sitting in the seats of power on the Government side of the House. I shall certainly do all that I can, when the time comes, to see that that happens. However, the acceptance of my right hon. Friend's motion would bring for me not so much rejoicing at the prospect of a Tory Government as a feeling of great relief that at last we had reached the bottom of the steep hill which Britain must climb for recovery and be led with all the authority of a new Government.
  I should leave the House of Commons more happily if I felt that Britain, about to enter the 1980s, was stronger, freer and more contented than it was 30 years ago when I first arrived in the House. It is sad that that is not so.
  Naturally, I regret any shortcomings of my own—whether as an individual or as a member of a Government—which have in any way pushed the country downwards to its present state. I wish that we had heard similar expressions of regret from the Prime Minister this afternoon, particularly as it is now evident to the least observant observer that we have sunk very low and that the climb back to confidence, to self-respect and to real satisfaction with ourselves will be long and horribly difficult.
  508
  This may be my last speech in the House. Many of my earlier speeches were too long. I hope that this one will not be. On occasions such as this, and in circumstances such as mine, it is possible to speak with some degree of objectivity. This is why I am less concerned with the shortcomings of the present Government and the superior merits of my right hon. Friends than I am with the state of the country and its need for firm and authoritative government.
  Whatever authority the Government once possessed finally evaporated this winter. That in itself is a remarkable achievement. It is probably the only substance that managed to evaporate in the bitter cold since Christmas. When the time comes, I shall do my best to work for a Tory victory; but my overwhelming desire now is for a Government who are new, with the strength to give Britain a new start and a new impetus. I beg the Prime Minister, even if he struggles to victory tonight, to wait no longer but to go at once, before the country grows weaker and the climb back to strength becomes more difficult.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: We shall be sorry to see the right hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) leave the House of Commons. I have enjoyed listening to him over the years, although I have not always agreed with him. I did not agree with him today. He tried to make out that the conditions of the ordinary people in Britain have not improved. I was brought up in a small working-class house. Ordinary working-class people were my friends and fellow workers. The conditions of the mass of ordinary people have been totally transformed from what they were when I was an apprentice on construction sites.
  It is possible that the class represented by the right hon. Member feel threatened and that their conditions are not as good as they were, although I do not think that that is true. Through the actions of Labour Governments, the lives of the mass of ordinary people are totally different. We do not have the mass demonstrations about unemployment that used to occur. That is for one reason: unemployed people, despite all their difficulties, are more protected today than they were. That is because Of Labour Governments.

  509
  I do not know how the vote will go tonight—quite honestly, to some extent I do not care. Whether we have an election campaign from tomorrow, next week, a month's time or two months' time, there has to be an election some time this year and whether it is sooner or later is totally irrelevant. Whenever we go to the country, the real issue is the basic difference between the philosophy of Opposition Members and the philosophy of Labour Members.
  That is why I am not afraid to get out on the hustings and explain the achievements of this Labour Government, previous Labour Governments and our basic attitude as against the attitude of Opposition Members. Since the end of the war and the introduction of the National Health Service, Opposition Members have criticised the Health Service because they believe that insufficient money is provided for it. At the same time, they make speeches demanding cuts in public expenditure. Yet we have one of the finest national health services in the world—brought in by a Labour Government.
  Conservative Members—particularly the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. William Clark) who is shifting in his seat like his party does—want to bring in private health services: the rich will do very nicely, thank you, and the poor will be at the back of the queue. That is the difference in philosophy between them and us. With regard to wage-related sickness and unemployment benefits, if one has not been unemployed and not suffered sickness in the way that the mass of ordinary working people do, and one is well protected by money, those concessions do not matter. However, they do matter to ordinary people. It does matter that there are redundancy payments. It does matter whether one is able to get a council house. All those schemes were brought in by Labour Governments, and that should be remembered in this debate.
  I say to Opposition Members, particularly to the Scottish nationalists and the others, that much of what they say is totally irrelevant. They are arguing a case which does not matter. For example, they argue that the problems of Scotland are far worse than the problems in other parts of the country. That is not true. I am glad that the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) feels that his
  510
  party should support the Government tonight. However, it is not true to say that conditions in Wales are worse than in other parts of the country. What we suffer from is the continuation of a system of society that we have modified and softened but which basically still exists—where the rich do very well and the poor struggle in comparison.
  We have to transform that society, whether one is a Scotsman, a Welshman or comes from Liverpool, as I do, where there is the highest level of unemployment in the British Isles.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davis: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a greater sense of discontent in this country, and against many sections of all classes, because of the lack of responsibility of one section of employers and workers towards another? What action does he suggest that the Government should take to be rid of the appalling discontent in the country?
  Mr. Heffer: That is an argument that we constantly hear, not only from Opposition Members but from the press. It was indicated in the press a few weeks ago that Britain was at the point of revolutionary upsurge. Opposition Front Bench spokesmen were also saying that. We had a series of industrial disputes, but there was no violence on the picket lines. When we see what happened in France last week and the week before in the steel workers' dispute, how dare anybody suggest that we are in the same state of discontent that exists in many Continental countries? There is no question of a comparison between what happens in our country and what happens in many others. Yet Conservative Members drip, drip, drip away.
  There is one element of discontent in the country. Day after day the British people watch television. The television tells them "Go to Majorca for your holiday. Buy a new car. Get a new bedroom suite. Get new carpets". The wife says "What about getting a new carpet, Fred? What about a holiday in Majorca?" Fred says "All right, love. I will go to my union branch meeting next week and suggest that we have another wage increase." When they demand a wage increase and get it, Conservative Members say "Absolutely scandalous.

  511
  They are bringing the country to a terrible state. They actually want more wages to buy all these consumer goods."
  Conservative Members should recognise that much of that discontent is because we live in a capitalist society with that philosophy—get more for yourself. That is the reason why we are in that position, and it is no good Conservative Members trying to get away from that basic point.
  I listened to the speech of the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) drew the attention of the House to the fact that in her speech there was not one word about the Common Market. She ignored it totally. Labour Members have had many differences on the question of the Common Market. Some of us thought that we should stay out and others thought that we should go in. But the one thing that we are totally united on is that the present contributions of this country to the Common Market and the present agriculture policy are not acceptable. There has to be a fundamental change. Some of us would go further and say that if it is not changed we have to come out. We can point to increases in food prices that have resulted from our membership of the Common Market.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) once said that someone was rolling on his back like a puppy wanting his tummy to be tickled. That is what Conservative Members are doing in relation to the Common Market. They are not standing up and fighting for the basic interests of the British people. Whenever we go out on the hustings, I shall not be ashamed to say that the Common Market has to be changed fundamentally. That will be a basic issue in the general election, and Conservative Members had better wake up to that fact.
  Conservative Members should not think that they will win the election on the basis of policies of confrontation with the trade unions and of sales of council houses which leave those without council houses at the end of the queue. If they think that they will win the election on that basis, they had better think again. I say to them "Good luck to you. If you win the vote tonight, well win it. But
  512
  you will not win the general election on that basis."
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. John Bruce-Gardyne: It is quite like old times for me to be called to speak after the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). His is a lovely speech and it grows no worse with repetition.
  I am deeply grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to address this Parliament. I do not think that you would appreciate it if I craved the indulgence of the House, since you may take the view that I had stretched it far too often in the past. I understand that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Waddington) and I were christened "retreads" by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) on our arrival, and I do not think that virginity goes well with a retread.
  I think that the House would wish me to preface my remarks by paying tribute to my predecessor, John Davies. It is not given to many to serve in the House for eight years and, during that time, to occupy three of the highest offices of State. It is even rarer for a right hon. Member to gain in that time the sympathy and respect of the House to the extent that John Davies did. I know that in Knutsford he is greatly respected and deeply missed. He is also missed by hon. Members for his unique combination of talent, charm, sincerity and modesty. I am delighted to be able to tell the House that he has made a wonderful recovery from his serious illness and is already back at work and leading a normal life.
  My only excuse for speaking is that I come fresh from an election and I am in a better position than are other hon. Members to say something about the confidence of the electorate in the Government. The Prime Minister referred to the great achievements of the past five years. I must confess that they do not seem to have got through to the electorate. The Leader of the Liberal Party referred to the achievements of the period of the Lib-Lab pact. I have to tell him that those achievements seem also to have left no mark in the minds of those who voted Liberal in 1974, but have no intention of doing so again.

  513
  The two emotions that came out most clearly in my by-election—on doorstep after doorstep—were anger and despair. There is anger at the way in which, week after week and month after month, every time the housewife took her shopping bag into the supermarket she found that prices had soared, despite frequent assertions to the contrary by the Government.
  There is despair at the way in which there seems little point in going to work because of the amounts of tax paid by workers. They showed me their wage slips. There is also deep anxiety about what is widely identified as the defencelessness of this country in an increasingly dangerous world.
  There is anger and despair about what is seen widely as falling standards in education and health. Perhaps above all, there is anger and despair at what is seen as the inability of the Government to offer to ordinary working people and trade unionists adequate protection against tiny minorities who try to exercise tyranny over their fellow workers.
  That is the message which came through so clearly on doorstep after doorstep. If the hon. Member for Walton thinks that only those from the same class as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) feel threatened, I can only wonder how different the people of Walton are from those on large council housing estates, such as Parting-ton, in my constituency. They feel deeply threatened at their places of work and believe that they do not have adequate defences from the Government under the law.
  There is an even more ominous legacy from the Government. It is perhaps inevitable that the generality of electors are not fully aware of it. When I was last an hon. Member I was sometimes accused of being a self-confessed monetarist. In those days that was rather like being called a self-confessed meths drinker, or wife beater, but times have changed, and it seems that we are all monetarists now. The Leader of the House says that he is not, but he must be almost alone.
  I get the impression that members of the Tribune group, rather like the gentleman in Moliere, are often monetarists without realising it. As for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he is the greatest monetarist of the lot. He preaches all the
  514
  fatuities of incomes policy, but his counter-inflation policy is based totally on control of the monetary aggregates. That is what worries me.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer once accused my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) of being a bad monetarist. That epithet is far more appropriately applied to the Chancellor. I have believed for a long time that control of monetary aggregates is an essential and indispensable precondition for the control of inflation and a healthy economy, but I do not accept that it is sufficient by itself. What frightens me is that the Government have combined relative stringency of monetary policy with increasing laxity of control over public expenditure. That combination spells ruination for the productive private sector of the British economy. We are already seeing that.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the danger of our catching the Dutch disease—the disease that afflicts a country when the chance possession of a rare natural resource is allowed to have the effect of pushing up the exchange rate to the point at which that country's manufacturing industry ceases to be competitive.
  If the Chancellor were not the sort of doctor who cannot tell chicken-pox from acne, he would realise that we already have a rampant case of the Dutch disease. Not a week goes by without news of further cutbacks in investment, further plant closures and further redundancies. There is nothing else that we can expect so long as we have a combination of relatively stringent monetary policy, total laxity of control of public expenditure and, hence, a grossly excessive borrowing requirement pushing up interest rates and facing us with the choice of allowing our money supply to expand, thus creating inflation, taking the strain on the exchange rate and seeing it rise.
  I believe that the inevitable legacy of this Government is a substantial acceleration not only in inflation but of unemployment. Alas, it is too late to stop that now. I shall be joining with all my heart in the censure motion, because it is a matter of the utmost urgency for the country to have in power a Government who will begin to cure our present extremely sinister predicament.

  515
  I wish to address a few remarks to my own right hon. and hon. Friends who will soon be occupying the Government Front Bench. This Government's day is played out. We must now address ourselves to the future. The future that my right hon. Friends will face is one in which public expenditure programmes are planned to increase by a further 2 per cent. in real terms. In no way can our economy begin to sustain such a proposition. It will be our overriding duty to cut out that further 2 per cent. in the first year. That will not be easy. We shall need to declare immediately a total moratorium on all Civil Service recruitment. We shall need to disconnect the linkage that now exists between the value of supplementary benefits and the retail price index. Furthermore, we shall have to stop the Government's expensive scheme for the subsidisation of part-time working.
  Labour will claim that these and other essential matters, which will need to be pursued if we are to bring public expenditure under control will create unemployment. It is Labour which has created unemployment. That unemployment is inescapable, but what matters is to know where it will happen. Will it happen more and more in the months ahead, as it is happening now, in the productive private sector? If it does, our economy will be damaged beyond repair.
  Unless we can switch that inevitable additional unemployment, which is the legacy of the Labour Government, from the productive private sector to the unproductive tax-consuming sector, our prospects are bleak. That is the task we shall face. It is not an agreeable prospect, and it is the full measure of the legacy that the Labour Government will leave behind them.
  If ever there was a case for a motion of no confidence in a Government who will leave behind a legacy of that kind, it is proved to the hilt tonight. I hope that we shall win it.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. Gerard Fitt: I wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) on his maiden speech in this Parliament. It was obvious from his lucid delivery and confidence that he is no newcomer to the House. I sympathise with him to some
  516
  extent. Perhaps that sympathy is not unwarranted when we remember that he has just paid one set of election expenses, and today comes here to support a motion designed to involve him in even more election expenses. Perhaps that is a mark of the confidence that he has in his constituency to return him again.
  This will be the unhappiest speech I have ever made in this House. When I was elected in 1966, I sat on the Labour Benches. I was under no compulsion to do so, but I had been a committed Socialist all my life. Therefore, when I came to this House I felt proud and honoured to associate myself with the Labour cause.
  When the Labour Government were defeated, I took my place among Labour Members on the Opposition Benches. Throughout a 14-year period in Parliament I have never once voted in the Conservative Lobby. I have at all times committed myself to support the policies which I honestly believed were for the good of the United Kingdom.
  Even in the years when we were in Opposition and when the Conservative Government were courageously trying to grapple—and to some extent succeeding—with the problems of Northern Ireland, I voted on every other issue with the then Labour Opposition. I repeat that the Conservative Government of 1970–74 tried courageously to reach a settlement in Northern Ireland. However, all that we had built up so laboriously was wrecked by the election in February 1974. We then in May of that year experienced the UWC strike. That strike terrified the Labour Government. Since then the Labour Government have been running away. They have not stood up to Unionist and Loyalist extremists as they should have done.
  When we look back in history, we see clearly that Labour Governments are not the best Governments to grapple with the Irish problem. That does not apply to Labour Oppositions. When Labour is in Opposition, one sees the real conscience of the Labour Party. Labour Members are not then restricted by the reins of office.
  This evening I find myself in a most difficult position, both personally and otherwise. I heard the speech of the Prime Minister and I agreed with every

  517
  word of it. I hope that when there is an election a Labour Government will be returned again. I have also heard the speeches so far from the Opposition Benches. They do not particularly fill me with enthusiasm when one envisages an incoming Conservative Government. But I believe that the policy on Northern Ireland adopted by the Labour Government since 1974 has been disastrous for the communities in Northern Ireland. The Conservatives tried to bring people in Northern Ireland together, but the communities are now more divided than they have been since the onset of the present troubles in 1969–70.
  Some journalists and others have said that there is a personality conflict between the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and me. That is totally untrue. The right hon. Gentleman is only implementing Labour Government policies in Northern Ireland. If I criticise him, I criticise this Government. In late 1966 or early 1967 the Government went into a minority and began to make arrangements with the Ulster Unionists. Every deal that they made so antagonised the minority community in Northern Ireland that any denunciation of this Government gets a standing ovation from it. It is sad and heartbreaking that with my record I can stand here and say that.
  One must consider what the Government have achieved by these deals with the Unionists. First, there was the deal to increase the number of seats. I tried as hard as I could to explain to the Government, in public and private, at Mr. Speaker's Conference and on the Floor of this House, how dangerous that was to community relations in Northern Ireland. No one believed me. It was thought that the mood would pass, that I was committed and would always he with the Government. I have not got over it and neither have the people that I represent. They see that action as consolidating Unionist supremacy in Northern Ireland.
  The first Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Borders (Mr. Whitelaw), and the Home Secretary when he was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland were considered in Northern Ireland to be impartial, trying to do what they could to bring the communities together. The present Secretary of State is believed to
  518
  be a Unionist Secretary of State. That is not personal. He is implementing Government policy, but if that is Government policy we are on the road to disaster in Northern Ireland.
  The psychological effect of the increase in seats has divided the communities in Northern Ireland, and could lead to an even more dangerous situation. The minority community may say that it no longer has any faith in politics and does not believe that the Labour Government or any Government are interested in bringing about a settlement. What there is of the SDLP electorate will not split up and go to parties at one or other end of the political spectrum but will withdraw from politics altogether. In that situation there will be only one winner, the men who are using the bomb to vote, the men of violence who have consistently said that politics do not work and that the only way to achieve their ends is by terrorism and violence. Some people in Northern Ireland think that they may be right. Even at this late hour, I say to those who are so disenchanted that it is not too late and something yet might be done.
  I have great respect for the Leader of the House. I have tried to put myself in his place and think of the problem facing him when the Government went into a minority after a series of by-election defeats and resignations, and presumably the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) offered to sustain the Government if a Bill was brought in to increase the number of seats.
  The last thing that the right hon. Member for Down, South wants is a Government of any description with a big enough majority to legislate. He loves his present position, where he can hold the balance. He can go to little villages and towns in Down, South and tell everyone how important he is, and he does that every weekend. I have not met another hon. Member who suffers from such delusions of grandeur. Only three weeks ago in a little village in Down, South the right hon. Gentleman called attention to his great achievement of a promise of five more seats, and that there would be 17 seats to represent Northern Ireland. The Unionists, of whatever description, will have 13 or 14 and become the third major force in British politics, and that is terrible to

  519
  contemplate. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State may believe that the Unionists will not win all those scats, that the Opposition will win them and some will go to representatives such as myself. He knows more about it than I do, but I do not believe that. It would be terrible to return with a hung Parliament that depended on the votes of the Ulster Unionists.
  After these deals that antagonised the minority community and created ill feeling and resentment, what thanks do the Ulster Unionists give? Do they thank the Leader of the House and say that they will vote for the Government tonight? No, they are voting tonight with the Tories. The sheer ingratitude of that crowd knows no bounds. The Northern Ireland Unionists have used the Labour Government for their ends, and tonight they will try to bring about their downfall. Seats in Northern Ireland do not change all that often. The Ulster Unionists know that they will come back with the same number. One or two may be called into question, but the possibility is that they will be back. They are not concerned about what happens in other parts of the United Kingdom.
  I believe that the Labour Party will win the next election, and my speech is an attempt to point out the Government's tragic mistakes over the past five years. I did not make up my mind about how to vote tonight because of devolution in Scotland and Wales. I made up my mind the Friday before last when I read the Bennett report on police brutality in Northern Ireland. That has not received sufficient attention in this House or in the country. The report clearly states that men were brutalised and ill treated in the holding centres in Northern Ireland. Restrictions were placed on debating that report when we were discussing the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act, and we have not been promised a debate. That report was only the tip of the iceberg. We have heard of Watergate and Mulder-gate, and there will be a "Bennett-gate". When the true story emerges of what has been happening in the interrogation centres, the people in the United Kingdom will recieve it with shock, horror and resentment. That is why I take this stand.
  520
  Throughout the years Hansard will tell the story of the votes that have taken place and the way in which I have voted on matters such as the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Bill, the emergency powers Bill, the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill, and so on. Those hon. Members who are true Socialists voted with me on these matters—they were men who had nothing to gain from coming into the Lobby with me but who were activated by concern about Northern Ireland. It has been hard for me to take the fact that the Government Front Bench has taken a diametrically opposed view to me over Northern Ireland.
  It has been said that if I do not vote for the Government tonight and there is an election, the alternative is just as bad. I do not think that that is so. I want to see a continuation of the Labour Government. But if there is a Conservative Government, I warn them not to get carried away with the belief that somewhere around the corner there is a military solution to the Northern Ireland problem. Unfortunately, that is the tune that we have heard from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Every Monday morning at 10 o'clock he sees the Chief Constable. Every Monday at 1 p.m. we hear on the news that so many IRA men have been caught and so many have been sent to gaol. Every Monday the Secretary of State looks for a military solution. But there will be Mondays and Mondays and more Mondays when there will be no military solution, and there will be no solution at all until we start to grapple with the political problem of Northern Ireland.
  My grievances are very clear and readily understood. Although not too many of my hon. Friends will stand up and say this in the House, many of them have told me that they recognise w hat has been going on over Northern Ireland and that they are sorry. Many regret bitterly ever having done a deal with the devil in the person of the Northern Ireland Unionist Party. But it is too late now. In all conscience, and understanding the real needs of Northern Ireland, I would be a liar and a traitor to the people who sent me here if I were to go into the Lobby tonight with the Labour Government to express confidence in their

  521
  handling of the affairs of Northern Ireland. I want to see an election as soon as possible. I want to see the Labour Government win with such a majority that never again will they have to rely on the votes of the Unionists in Northern Ireland.
  Rumours are circulating in the House and throughout Northern Ireland about the levels to which this Government will stoop to maintain themselves in office for a few weeks more. I rarely agree with the Leader of the Opposition, but today she said that this Government should maintain their dignity. I believe that too. It is heartbreaking to see a Labour Government without dignity.
  The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maguire)—I cannot really call him my hon. Friend—is very rarely in this House and he has yet to make his maiden speech. On all the Northern Ireland issues that we have had in recent months—the Bennett report, the prevention of terrorism, the Bill on the redistribution of seats—we would have liked to have had the benefit of the hon. Member's opinions. We would have liked to hear whether he accepted or rejected the Government's views on such matters. But he did not appear when such issues were discussed. There is a rumour circulating today, and if it is true it is despicable, that the hon. Member is somewhere within the building talking to someone from the Government Whips' office. He cannot talk to me in case I persuade him to do as I am doing tonight. I shall be watching very carefully, and if the hon. Member goes through the Government Lobby tonight it will be in opposition to everything that his constituents sent him here to do. Such an action would be completely dishonest, and he has not given us the benefit of his opinion or his vote on any of the issues that affect Northern Ireland. If this Government have to depend on such a representative to get support tonight, it is a very sad day for the Labour Party and the Labour Government. It is terrible to think that they have to descend to such a level.
  I have supported the Labour Government loyally in every possible way. When the election comes I shall still fight and clamour for a Labour victory in the hope that the Labour Government will have learned from their mistakes in Northern
  522
  Ireland. I hope that even now the Government will say that there was something wrong in the interrogation centres in Northern Ireland and that the Bennett report may be debated on the Floor of the House. I hope that they will establish a sworn inquiry on this matter. We do not want a committee on which everyone sits with handcuffs, or a committee with terms of reference so restricted as to make it useless. We want nothing less than a sworn inquiry—that is all that will satisfy the people of Northern Ireland.
  I have a loyalty to this Government, to my own working class and trade union background, and to the whole working-class movement in the United Kingdom and further afield. But I have a greater loyalty to the people of Northern Ireland who have suffered so tragically over the past 10 years. I am speaking with their voice tonight. It is their voice saying that because of what the Government have done in the past five years—disregarded the minority and appeased the blackmailers of the Northern Ireland Unionist majority—I cannot go into the Lobby with them tonight.
  6.48 p.m.
  Mr. James Molyneaux: During the past week the more thoughtful right hon. and hon. Members must have asked themselves what will happen to the House of Commons. It is clear that if we continue on the present course this Chamber will become irrelevant. Its decisions will be predicted and to a great extent pre-empted several days in advance by the Fleet Street computers. Second Readings will be a matter of the Minister in charge moving formally and Mr. Speaker or Deputy Speaker suspending the sitting until 9.59 p.m. when we all come in for the Division. In these circumstances, when the issue has already been predetermined, a debate is a sham, and woe betide any Member of Parliament who dares to reconsider his views in the meantime and prove the computer print-out wrong.
  The politicians of the future will have to be very brave to withstand the assaults of the news industry, which has been allowed to elevate itself to the point where it can make or unmake the reputation of any politician or public figure.
  Recently, the Prime Minister remarked that if he were to spend his time correcting inaccuracies and misrepresentations he

  523
  would have time for little else. I agree. Out of consideration for the British public, I am always reluctant to confuse the people with the facts. But we must admit to ourselves that in our attitude to each other we sometimes supply irresponsible people with ammunition.
  For example, I find it difficult to understand the criticism directed at the Leader of the Opposition. The very nature of the right hon. Lady's title surely suggests that she should not be entirely sympathetic to the Government. Might she not be rightly accused of dereliction of duty if she failed to discharge her obligation to criticise, scrutinise and, if necessary, obstruct the activities of the Government? Why should it be reprehensible for the right hon. Lady to display a certain restrained enthusiasm to become the occupant of all that desirable property in the cul-de-sac just off Whitehall? Is such an intention not again implied in the title of her office? Indeed, she would rightly deserve castigation were she to shrink from the responsibility that would flow from making good her claim to head a future Government.
  On the other hand, why should it be considered dishonourable for the Prime Minister to seek to command a majority in the House? Surely, that is what it is all about. For days past, we have been told by those who no doubt embody all the virtues in themselves that the Prime Minister was demeaning himself by seeking the support of parties other than his own. His course cannot be easy. If he takes no account of others' views, he will be accused of arrogance. If he refuses to take prudent steps to secure wider agreement, he will be condemned as incompetent. Those who lament to high Heaven about wheeling and dealing should remember that such practices were prominent features of our British democracy for decades and even centuries.
  I shall say something else, especially to those who are enthusiastic advocates of proportional representation. If they should ever get their way, horse trading, and even worse, would become a permanent necessity in this place.
  This debate and the predicament in which the Government find themselves arise out of the Government's obstinate attempts to force upon Scotland and Wales a form of devolution unacceptable
  524
  to the majority in this House, in Scotland or in Wales. My hon. Friends and I have maintained the same position on that matter throughout. The House may recall the terms of amendments tabled, on Second Reading, to the original Scotland and Wales Bill, in which we urged the House to deny that Bill a Second Reading so long as Northern Ireland remained deprived of any devolved or local administration above the level of district councils.
  Now, as then, our object continues to be to see Northern Ireland given not only parity with the rest of the United Kingdom in democratic local government but a form of devolution that does not endanger the unity of the State or Northern Ireland's place in it.
  Tonight my colleagues and I will have to take a share in deciding whether this Parliament, which has only seven or eight months of natural life left, should be brought to an end now by a motion of censure. In doing so, we must be guided by two interests that we have set ourselves to follow from the outset of this Parliament—that is, the national interest and our special duty to the Province that we represent.
  Perhaps it is just as well that we have two guides and not one, for it could be a matter of nice, fine and difficult decision to know what good or harm could flow from another one, two, three, or six months of this Parliament's declining life.
  When we come to the second criterion, we are on surer ground. On 8 May last year, when our votes inflicted a severe reverse upon the Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) reminded the House that parliamentary under-representation was not the only direct injustice under which our Province had laboured. He said:
  "So the further injustice which it is our duty to seek to remedy is the fact that we in Ulster do not enjoy the benefit of democratic local government in the natural and ordinary sense of the term, in which it is taken for granted in the rest of the country."—[Official Report, 8 May 1978; Vol 949, c. 828.]
  He placed on record the fact that so far there had been no sign, or even a beginning, or an earnest of intention to remove that injustice. In practical terms, the situation has not altered since my right hon. Friend spoke on that occasion.

  525
  In moving the renewal, on 30 June 1978, of the so-called direct-rule Act, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland professed his intention to
  "look to see whether the right principles are being properly applied in the allocation of functions and responsibilities between, on the one hand, district councils and, on the other, the regional government which is now being administered by Her Majesty's Government"—[Official Report, 30 June 1978; Vol. 952, c. 1713–4.]
  Those words led us to hope that we would see at least some progress towards the recreation of local democracy in Ulster by entrusting to the district councils those functions and responsibilites that might properly be discharged at that level.
  Whatever measure or form of devolved government may in due course take shape—and the desired form of such government is set out in the policy document of our party, to which we are now all committed—we are now within three months of the time when the statutory instrument on direct rule will come up for renewal. Unhappily I have to record that, apart from a small number of new and very minor powers added to the district councils, there has so far not been any visible progress in the direction which had seemed to be implicit in the Secretary of State's words. I do not believe that in the long run the House will tolerate keeping part of the United Kingdom destitute of the most basic forms of local democracy.
  The Lobby of this House is a place that concentrates minds wonderfully—the minds of Governments and of alternative Governments. In the position that we in the Ulster Unionist party occupy in the House, we should be failing in our elementary duty to the Province and to those who elected us if we did not use our votes tonight to mark, in the most emphatic manner open to us, our sense, and that of those whom we represent, that Ulster has a right to local democracy and that Ulster is still being denied that right.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Although the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux), who has just spoken, did not declare how his party will vote in the Division tonight, we on the Labour Benches have never been in
  526
  any doubt as to where his party's votes would be cast. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), who spoke earlier, said that the Ulster Unionists are Tories, and it was a very great mistake of my Government to try to buy them off in the way they did by giving them additional seats.
  The debate could have ended, and perhaps it would have been profitable to those on the Labour Benches if it had ended, after the Prime Minister sat down, because he made mincemeat of the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition. He won hands down. He did not win only on points. It was a knock-out. But he did not have much to beat, did he? The Tory Opposition had better understand that the right hon. Lady just has not got what it takes. In every major debate in this House—built up by the media and everybody else—in which the right hon. Lady takes part, we can bet our last ha'penny that she will be a colossal flop. I have never known such consistency in the House over the years.
  As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear, no move was made by the right hon. Lady until the Scottish National Party chose to vent its spleen on Her Majesty's Government. We can understand the embarrassment and the frustration of the SNP over the fact that only one in three voters in Scotland bothered to vote for an Assembly. Now the SNP is motivated by the fact that it wants to cut its electoral losses—rather that than salvaging something from the indecisiveness and the mess left by the referendum. But the SNP Members cannot now save their parliamentary political skins. After the election, whenever it comes—and I pray to God that it comes soon—the SNP will be able to put its Members of Parliament in a small taxi, if not on a bike. But leave the SNP to stew in its own juice. If the Tories win, the SNP Members will bear a heavy responsibility for having played an active part in bringing that about. The consequences for devolution would be far less important than the other consequences, social and economic, for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom.
  I should like to quote from The Scotsman, an avowed Tory paper which has supported the Tory Party for a long time, and still does. It also supported the SNP

  527
  at the height of its good fortune. This is what it said in an editorial on 26 March this year, commenting on the speech of the right hon. Lady in Solihull last weekend, when she was talking of the cuts in public expenditure threatened by the Tory Party:
  "No doubt the programmes of the Scottish Development Agency and the National Enterprise Board will be early candidates for economy".
  The article went on to say:
  "In general, the Tories' plans augur ill for the health and social services. Cuts in these areas, together with changes in union law, seem likely to provoke another round of class hostility".
  That same conference was addressed by the chairman of the Conservative Party, Lord Thorneycroft. He made a rousing speech along the same lines as that of the right hon. Lady this afternoon—that we should speak more about creating wealth than about distributing it. Lord Thorneycroft, the ageing John the Baptist of the Tory Party, is not preaching his gospel from the wilderness. Far from it. He happens to be the chairman of Pirelli General Cables Ltd., among other things. In 1977 the directors' haul in that company was £99,000. I presume that the chairman received £30,000 or £40,000 of that lot. In 1978, this same company, chaired by the chairman of the Tory Party, was ordered to repay £9 million to the Post Office for illegal price fixing. No doubt Lord Thorneycroft knew nothing about that as chairman of the company.
  Lord Thorneycroft is also chairman of Pye (Cambridge) Ltd., where the directors' rake-off in 1977 was £111,000, divided between seven of them. It went up from £69,000 in 1976 to £111,000 in 1977—a 60 per cent. increase in directors' emoluments in one year under incomes policy. So much for patriotism. Patriotism can be carried too far. There is no nonsense there about wealth creation. That talk is just for public consumption, to deceive the gullible masses.
  The other example I want to give of Tory spokesmen who do not practise what they preach is that of the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). I have referred to him before in this context. He is the chairman of the Back Bench Tory Members of this House. It is rumoured and wildly speculated that, if
  528
  and when the right hon. Lady loses the next election, he might well be the next leader of the Tory Party. A week or two ago he won for himself a capital gain of £1,400,000, and all he did was to shuffle a few bits of paper around in the City casinos. There was no nonsense there, either, about wealth creation. My hon. Friends were quite right when they talked about the casino-type society that will be created if and when the Tory Party gets power.
  It was interesting to note that in her speech this afternoon the right hon. Lady was more her natural self than she has been for a very long time. Perhaps that is why the disaster was so great. Ever since she became leader of her party she has had everything done to her and for her except a face-lift. That harsh, metallic, voice that we used to hear has now been replaced—until today—by an artificially induced sexual huskiness. We have all noticed it from the very delivery of her speeches. At one time she went into such a high gear that her words could not be properly reported by the press. Now she has changed that. She has been trained as extensively and as intensively as any circus animal but, my God, she will be a lot more dangerous if she gets loose.
  I forecast that if the right hon. Lady's policies are carried out as she and her party have threatened they will be, should that disaster occur, we shall have a general strike in this country within 12 months. That is the danger, unless she faces up to the undeniable fact stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister this afternoon. Whichever party gets power in this country, it must be prepared to accept that it has to work in as close harmony as possible with all sections of the community, and particularly with organised labour and the captains of industry. It is no use facing them with a sledgehammer and confrontation. Unless the Conservatives are prepared to accept that, there will be no future for a Conservative Government or for this country. That lesson has to be learned by the right hon. Lady and she has not learned it yet.
  7.9 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Rhodes James: The speech of the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), which was characteristic, rather emphasised the point

  529
  made by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) in his very moving, sincere and courageous speech, in which he said that there was intense disenchantment with politics in Northern Ireland. After the speech to which we have just been subjected, I would not be surprised if there were disenchantment with politics everywhere. It was a tawdry harangue. It was shameful for him and for this House.
  I have been a Member of this House for two and a half years. I wish to emphasise that, rather than beginning in this debate, the election campaign appears to have been going on for the past three years. We have been in a situation in this nation of inadequate government and almost constant electioneering. As all hon. Members know, although we are all partisans we also have a national interest and a profound responsibility to our constituents. I believe that we also have a profound responsibility to the history, honour and good name of our own political parties and the cause which they espouse.
  In the debate tonight we are not simply debating the fate of a particular Government. We are also debating a particular style of government, which I hope the new Parliament, of whatever political complexion it may be, will turn its back on and have nothing to do with again, because this is the politics of the professional foul, of "anything goes" and of clinging to office at any price and at any cost.
  I believe these things, because many years ago I came to the House and sat in the Gallery when the House sat in the other place, and I came and sat in the Gallery here when the House came here. I became, for a limited period, an Officer of the House and I believed then, as I believe now, that the aspiration to become a Member of this House is one of the highest aspirations that anyone can have. I also believe that it behoves all of us—whether in Government or Opposition, whether on Back Benches or Front Benches—to be worthy of the inheritance that we have received, and worthy of those who have elected us.
  In my view, the manner in which government has been conducted of late, and the manner in which it is being conducted now, is unworthy of the history not only of this House or this nation
  530
  but of the movement which created those who now betray the trust placed in them.
  7.12 p.m.
  Mr. Max Madden: At the outset, I refer to the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), whom I would certainly like to refer to as my honourable Friend. I believe that he made what will be remembered as a remarkable contribution. His words concerning the future of Northern Ireland are shared by many of us on the Labour Benches.
  I hope that they will be responded to by the present Government, and after the next general election, whenever that takes place, I hope that the Government will continue to respond to the message that my hon. Friend has given tonight.
  Before I turn to the main matters on which I wish to concentrate—namely, employment and industry—I should like to make two initial points that are of concern to a large number of my constituents. I refer, first, to pensions. I am very glad that the Prime Minister was able to announce this afternoon that the Government are to ensure that the underpayment of pensions is to be fully remedied in the next payment in November. This is a direct result of representations that I and many of my hon. Friends have made in recent weeks.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Like my hon. Friend, I am very appreciative, but is it not strange that we have to wait until November, when the top salaried people, as reported in today's press, are to get £123 a week extra—a 25 per cent, increase—as from Sunday? Could we not have done this for the old-age pensioners?
  Mr. Madden: I fully share the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis). We were pressing for a lump sum payment to be made at Easter. That was certainly what we were pressing for. I regret that that has not been possible. However, I am very pleased that the payment will be made in full in November.
  The second matter to which I wish to refer will be of benefit to a considerable number of people in the United Kingdom, including many in my constituency. I refer to the Bill that was presented yesterday to compensate workers who contract lung diseases as a result of dust.

  531
  This measure will be of assistance to thousands of workers in a number of industries, including textiles, pottery, quarrying, brickmaking and thermal insulation. It is something for which I and others have been campaigning for some time.
  I should certainly like to nail one lie, which is that this scheme has been produced out of some governmental hat this week in an endeavour blatantly to attract the votes of three particular Members of this House. That is utter and complete nonsense. I want to make it abundantly clear that this scheme has arisen quickly following the report of the Pearson Commission, established by the previous Government in 1973 to examine the whole area of civil liability and compensation for personal injury. Unfortunately, when that Commission reported it was not wiling to recommend the establishment of a scheme of this sort, and in the intervening very short period the Government have chosen—wisely, in my view—not to accept the recommendation of the Pearson Commission but to establish such a scheme.
  Mr. Dafydd Wigley: Does the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) accept that having brought forward a tripartite scheme betwen the NCB, the NUM and themselves for compensation to coal miners suffering from the effects of industrial dust, the Government could have done the same for these other sufferers? The Government could have brought this forward in advance of the report by the Pearson Commission, as indeed they did for other groups of sufferers who could have been made to wait until Pearson had completed its study.
  Mr. Madden: I am not wholly in agreement with that argument, though I fully share the hon. Gentleman's pleasure at seeing the scheme announced. I would certainly have wished to see it earlier. I am seeking to argue, I hope with conviction, that this is not a scheme that has been conjured out of electoral air in the last few days in an attempt to maximise the number of hon. Members who will vote against the motion of confidence tonight. This is a scheme for which many people have been campaigning for a long time, and I am extremely glad that it has been presented. Given the defeat of the
  532
  motion tonight, I hope that this measure will be enacted and will reach the statute book within a period of weeks.
  The motion that we are discussing offers an opportunity for those contributing and listening to view the future of this country. If we do that objectively, on the basis of the opening speeches that were made, it is fair to say that the Leader of the Opposition, who talked dismissively about yesterday's jobs, seemed also to be talking in terms of yesterday's problems and offering yesterday's solutions. Many of my constituents, who are fully aware of the very difficult and changing industrial world in which they live, and in which Britain finds itself, will not find much comfort in the words of the right hon. Lady today.
  My constituents recognise that they work in industries that suffer from growing import penetration. They are industries that face the challenge of new manufacturing countries around the world—particularly in Asia—which exploit low wages, enjoy all sorts of subsidies and exploit poor conditions in terms of trade union organisation and health and safety legislation. My constituents also know that they work in industries that are facing difficulties because of the adverse trading position that Britain has with the Common Market. They realise that if their jobs are to survive, and if there is to be a job for them tomorrow, there must be increased planning of employment and industry.
  We must have alternative job programmes if workers who are to be displaced from the textile industry within the whole of the Common Market over the next few years are to find employment. I think particularly of Yorkshire and Lancashire, the area that I represent.
  My constituents and the people of this country also know that if alternative employment is to be found, it will happen very largely as a result of Government intervention and public financial assistance. They realise—I think that this is increasingly recognised, certainly on the Labour Benches—that we shall see a new expansion of our economy only if we successfully mobilise the torrent of enthusiasm of all our workpeople and do not simply seek to exclude those who create the wealth and listen only to the top echelons of management and those who control big business.

  533
  For instance, many of my constituents recognise what the Government have done to protect their employment. I refer especially to the temporary employment subsidy, which has been one of the most sucessful weapons in tackling unemployment. Certainly compared with many overseas countries it has been successful. It has protected the jobs of about 500,000 workers, and the net cost of doing so has been virtualy nil. I commend the Government for replacing that scheme with the short-time working compensation scheme, which will do a great deal again to protect the jobs of my constituents and others like them in the textile, clothing and footwear industries. It will also be extremely important for many other workers, including those in engineering.
  I believe that many of my constituents will look upon this debate as reflecting an unreal appreciation of the world, because the Conservative Opposition have sought to argue that Britain is the only country in the world that is suffering from structural unemployment and seeing an attack on its manufacturing industries and all the other things about which Labour Members are concerned. That is an illusion. I believe that many people are beginning to realise that we are in the middle of a deep-seated, fundamental crisis of the economic system of the Western world. That is the challenge that we face. That is the challenge of the 1980s, to which I hope the policies of this Government and, I hope, a successive Labour Government, will be addressed.
  We look in vain for the real alternative policies of the Tory Party. All we can do is to look at some of the important signposts. Some of us remember the most important signpost of all, erected some time ago by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), when he said—he has never sought to contradict is—that all subsidies and grants do great harm. We must take that as an important signpost of real Tory economic and industrial policy. They think that all subsidies and grants do great harm.
  The second important signpost seems to be that of dramatic tax cuts. This seems to be the only policy upon which the Tory party is prepared to stand. We are told that this will resolve all our problems very quickly, will regenerate industry, reduce unemployment, somehow stop the massive import penetration that
  534
  we see in industry after industry, and leave our nation as an industrial haven of peace, plenty and prosperity.
  That is the message of the Tory Party, and it has been its message over a number of years. Although we were told by the new hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) that this was a message that appealed to many of his electors in that by-election, it has not met with total support from some economic commentators. I refer to a particularly perceptive article by Victor Keegan in The Guardian of 19 March, which was headlined "Danger signs on Maggie's road back to Selsdon". In the course of that article, Mr. Keegan said:
  "What then of the Conservatives' policy of cutting taxes? This is an essential, indeed the key part, of their strategy of industrial regeneration—as, of course, it was with the original Selsdon policies.
  As a taxpayer I shall be the last to object and there certainly is a case for saying that our marginal rates of taxation are at least unfair and possibly, also, a disincentive. Having said that, one should not delude oneself for a moment into thinking that sharp reductions in taxation are the elixir which will transform the country's prospects. There is not the slightest evidence for this.
  For a start Britain's 100 years of industrial decline have embraced long periods when our taxation rates were far less onerous in themselves and compared with other countries without showing much impact on growth. Second, those countries which most closely correspond to Sir Keith Joseph's ideals of taxation (the United States, Japan, France and Germany—suitably adjusted for 'guest' workers) have similar unemployment rates to our own. The idea that unemployment in this country would somehow be radically different if taxation were not so onerous has not been proven".
  As more people begin to examine the alternative policies proposed by the Tory Party, I believe that more and more will realise that the case that they propose is not proven, on many grounds. In my view, and increasingly in the view of many other people, the Tory Party will find that its case on reduced taxation is not proven. It will find the alternative of a sharp increase on VAT not proven. It will certainly find its argument for a radical reduction in public expenditure not proven.
  I believe that the Conservatives will definitely find that their alternatives for stimulating employment are not proven. As they look around and see the need for company after company to be injected with public financial assistance to enable them to survive and to offer jobs, I

  535
  believe that they will increasingly find their policy in that regard not proven. Most of all, they will find it difficult to accept that the blithe promises about the benefits that at some stage we shall receive from the Common Market have been proven. It is clear for all to see that the drain, in terms of our financial resources, our balance of payments and other parts of our economy, has been as a direct result of our entry into the Common Market.
  This motion deserves to be defeated. I trust that it will be. I hope that this Government will continue to carry out some of the urgent and important tasks that are in front of them. When we enter the next election, I hope that we shall be returned with a convincing majority, so that a Labour Government can continue to tackle the problems of the real world in the 1980s—problems that face every man, woman and child in the country. I hope that the people will reject completely the unreal, fanciful and potentially extremely harmful policies that have been proposed by the Conservative Party.
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. James Kilfedder: I take part in the debate to deal largely and briefly with the vicious attack of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on the police force. This is a repeat of what he has done before, both inside and outside the House.
  The hon. Gentleman stated that the Bennett report declared that the RUC was guilty of brutality to prisoners. That is totally untrue. All that the Bennett report stated was that there were certain cases—and this was in the fifth category that it analysed—where there was evidence of injury being inflicted on prisoners but not indicating by whom. The report suggested that the papers in those cases should go to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
  There were, by inference, only a few cases. I am sure that everyone in this House, and certainly people whom I represent, would wish to see those cases fully and properly investigated. But it is a disgrace that such an attack on the RUC should again be made. It is taken up by the press, both in the country and abroad, so that people abroad think that this country is using the police to
  536
  deal brutally with people they have arrested.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Belfast, West is not now in the House. He also made an attack on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and poured praise on the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw). The distinction he drew was that the minority had faith in the previous Government but that under this Government and this Secretary of State for Northern Ireland those people feel no hope for the future. I maintain that the hon. Member for Belfast, West is not speaking for the majority in Northern Ireland. I doubt very much if he is speaking for the minority in its entirety in Northern Ireland. The reason why he found it possible to praise the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border is that, as he admits himself, he met the Provisional IRA when he was in office and also created the special category status for prisoners. Those were two glaring blunders. The present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is not guilty of blunders of that kind.
  The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland contributed some justice in Northern Ireland with the Bill that passed through this House giving certain extra seats to the Province. The number of seats was fewer than the Province was entitled in justice to expect, but the Bill was nevertheless a measure of recognition that democracy was not fully in operation in Northern Ireland. This development has displeased the hon. Member for Belfast, West. He would be happy, of course, if the Labour Government could assure him that all those extra seats would be SDLP seats and that the electorate would be gerrymandered to ensure that the SDLP would win those seats. But that is not possible. We live in a democracy. He has to take it or lump it, depending on how people vote in elections.
  It was incorrect for the hon. Member for Belfast, West to say that as a result of the action of the Secretary of State the SDLP electorate would not split up and go to other parties. That electorate, he said, would abandon the parliamentary system, it would not vote, and might take other measures instead. He is afraid that the SDLP supporters will now turn and support the Republican Clubs' candidates

  537
  not only in West Belfast but in other constituencies. This fear has dictated most of his remarks for some time. But that is his worry and concern. It is not a concern about the safety for the future of the people of Northern Ireland.
  The House must recognise that Northern Ireland needs to be properly safeguarded against the terrorists. The House must recognise, as the Provisional IRA has recognised, that police intelligence in the Province is good and growing. As a consequence, more Provisional IRA terrorists are being arrested. No wonder the Provisional IRA became extremely worried about the systematic dispersal of its forces of evil. When arrested and taken to a police station, most of the Provisional IRA suspects started talking. There is nothing more cowardly than a terrorist: he is a big man with a bomb or a gun in his hand, but let him be arrested and he becomes frightened and scared of the punishment that should properly be meted out to him in a court of law.
  The Provisional IRA had to act to stem the flow of information. Its members were instructed to allege, if arrested, that they had been beaten up and that their statements to the police were made under compulsion and not voluntarily. At the same time, as part of its campaign to destroy the State, the Provisional IRA embarked on a campaign to undermine the RUC and to destroy its standing in the community. The RUC is a gallant and dedicated force. It is being subjected to vilification and defamation. By these means the Provisional IRA hoped to stop the flow of information from the minority community. The Provisional IRA hopes to pillory the RUC to such an extent that its morale will be undermined and a splendid force discredited. If that happened, there would be one certain result. The terrorists would come out of their rat-holes and the Province, which has already suffered 10 long years of terrorism, would be held in the vicious grip of death, mutilation and destruction.
  While protesting his support for the forces of law and order in Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Belfast, West does his best to put the boot in. That term best sums up his verbal attacks on the Royal Ulster Constabulary. This House, this Government and this country have a duty to make sure that the RUC
  538
  gets a fair deal, certainly in the press. It needs a fairer deal. The Bennett report has been largely distorted in the press and such distortions have been publicised abroad. It is time that the RUC was shown to be protecting all decent people, irrespective of their religion or political affiliation, from the men of violence and the criminals that they are.
  The first priority that this Government should have adopted, and the first priority that the next Government must adopt, is the creation of a devolved Parliament at Stormont. No matter what is said about changes in local government or second-tier local government, this is not acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland. We want a devolved Parliament. I hope that the Ulster people will not be betrayed a second time by the Conservative Party if it wins the next election. I have consistently sought to have an election since last year. I shall, therefore, be voting in the Division Lobby tonight in the hope that an election will come about. I believe that this country needs a fresh Parliament and a Parliament with a fresh mandate from the people.
  7.37 p.m.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Listening to this debate, a number of us can be forgiven for feeling a little sad about the speeches of our Irish colleagues on both sides of the House. It is not that hon. Members on this side, or those on the other side, have been uninterested in Northern Ireland. Many of us have taken a serious interest and have been there on visits. I speak for no one but myself. I believe, however, that a number of my colleagues feel that there is nothing good that we can actually do about it.
  In a debate during a past Summer Recess recall, I interrupted the then Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), to ask whether, with the possible exception of Lord Mountjoy in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, any Englishman or Scot, including Charles I, Strafford, Gladstone or anyone else, had had success in Ireland. I say to our Irish colleagues, at this stage in the Parliament, that it is not that we are uninterested. It is just that many of us think that we are no good when it comes to Irish affairs.
  As a Scot, I must say that I was sad and rather ashamed at the speech of the

  539
  leader of the Scottish National Party. His speech was laced with fiction and untruth. I am sorry that none of the Scottish National Party is present when I am making this kind of remark. But it gives our English colleagues a taste, as my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew-shire, West (Mr. Buchan) will know, of what we get week in and week out. It accounts for some of our attitudes.
  We are concerned partly in this debate with the future constitutional arrangements of Scotland. I would like to ask, in wholly courteous terms—I believe it is an important question—whether the Leader of the Opposition would clarify one remark that she made. She said that any such decision must be left to the new Parliament. This is not a trick question or, I hope, an offensive one. I would like to know precisely what decision is to be left to the new Parliament.
  The right hon. Lady has to face up to the fact that, during the referendum campaign, two very different things were being said by members of her party. On the one hand, there was the view of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym), the hon. and learned Member for Cleveland (Mr. Brittan) and a number of her Scottish colleagues who were in favour of devolution but not this Act. Last week, as some of my Scottish colleagues know, even the vice-chairman of the Conservative Party in Scotland, Mr. Michael Ancram, was going round saying that this Act was not good enough. I do not think I distort what he said. But what, then, is, "good enough"?
  There is that strand that wants a better Bill. I am in no doubt, and neither are my colleagues in the Labour Vote "No" campaign, a separate organisation, that there was a substantial Conservative "Yes" vote in the referendum. That was especially so in the Grampian region, although it was present in other regions. No accurate figure may be placed on that vote, but I am certain, as are my colleagues, that the size of the Conservative "Yes" vote was much more considerable than those who sought a "No" vote wanted from their own point of view. That is a fact that I present to the House. There is that strand of opinion in the Conservative Party.
  There is a second strand. I shared no platforms with Conservatives, so perhaps
  540
  I speak at second hand, but it is a fact that there is a second strand that says that it is impossible to have a subordinate Parliament in a part and only a part of a United Kingdom. Those who form the second strand of opinion say that the scheme that was presented by the Government, or anything remotely like it, is unworkable and impossible.
  I have put the two different arguments before the House. I invite the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition to clarify her position. I ask her to do so without making any definite binding remarks and without making a great statement. Will the right hon. Lady clarify what she really thinks about the statement that "any decision must be left to the new Parliament"? Which side of the argument does she genuinely favour?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I am glad to respond to the hon. Gentleman's invitation. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that I believe that the present Act cannot be amended. I was referring to any fresh proposals which might arise from discussions which have not yet taken place, that is all.
  Mr. Dalyell: That is exactly the difficulty that we are in. Do the fresh proposals bear any relationship to the proposals that were put forward by the Government? Those like me think that the proposals that were put forward by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and others were the best proposals if such a scheme were to be put forward. I think that that is the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), who I see is nodding. We think that it was probably the best scheme that could be put forward. Those who are concerned with the future constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom are worried about the sort of proposals to which the right hon. Lady is referring when she mentions proposals. I invite her once again to say what sort of proposals she has in mind.
  Mrs. Thatcher: We have not even had any discussions to ascertain what sort of proposals should be put forward. I believe that the present round should be completed. The orders should have been laid and they should have been voted upon. I never exclude any future possibilities that might arise from proposals between the parties. The experience that we have had

  541
  shows that no fresh proposal will ever get through unless it has a widespread measure of support in the House at the outset. How can I say what any such proposal can possibly be before any discussions have even taken place?
  Mr. Dalyell: The right hon. Lady has done me a great courtesy. I think, as do many of my colleagues in the Labour Vote "No" campaign, that proposals in this form, or anything like it, do not exist. I and my colleagues believe that we cannot have a subordinate Parliament in part and only a part of a United Kingdom. If there is to be a complete United Kingdom examination of democracy with a view to bringing government closer to the people, that is a different matter.
  I say without rancour and without bitterness that at some time in the coming weeks the right hon. Lady will have to make up her mind between what has been written about her by her hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) as the Ayatollah Taylor—I am not being offensive because I have been called the Ayatollah Dalyell—and what is being written about those who take a hard, unqualified "No" view, and those who are searching after some sort of will-o'-the-wisp devolution and say "Yes, we are devolutionists, but not with this scheme." At some time in the coming weeks the right hon. Lady will have to come down one side or the other of the devolution fence.
  7.47 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Roberts: The hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) referred in a moving speech to those in his constituency and in many parts of Wales who suffer from dust disease. Most of us who have lived in South Wales and who have been associated with public life in that area are aware of the problem. Those in North Wales are aware of it in relation to the quarrymen.
  I once played rugby with the Crynant rugby football club. The team consisted of 14 colliers and myself. I know well the hardships that so many of the mining community suffered. I can understand the decision that the hon. Gentleman made today. He says that he made it reluctantly because he had made an agreement with the Scottish National Party. He must have made his decision reluc-
  542
  tantly because in his speech he included a long catalogue of criticism of the five years of Labour Government.
  I believe that the hon. Gentleman and his party have made an error of judgment, although we all understand that they have made it for humanitarian reasons. I think that the hon. Gentleman will come to recognise the truth of his prediction that he and his hon. Friends will pay a political penalty. Tonight he will have the worst of all worlds. He will find that politically he has backed the losers. I believe, too, that he can say goodbye once and for all to any possible support from Tory voters in Carmarthen, Merioneth, Caernarvon and in any other constituency in Wales.
  The hon. Gentleman has told me on many occasions that he speaks for Wales and that I do not. On a number of ocasions when the Welsh people have been asked to come to a decision—for instance, in the referendum—I have been on the side of the majority and he has been consistently with his party on the side of the minority. The people of Carmarthen, Caernarvon and Merioneth will say that Plaid Cymru stands not for the unity of the kingdom. They will say that it stands not for the defence of the realm. They will say after tonight that there is no difference between the Tweedledum of Socialism and the Tweedledee of nationalism. He and his party will reap the reward that they deserve.
  Mr. Neil Kinnock: It is because of the Tweedledum of opportunism that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) share that there is difficulty in distinguishing between. Socialism is not even in it.
  Mr. Roberts: The origin of the debate is to some extent the disastrous failure of the Assembly policy in Wales and Scotland. In Wales I think that we were entitled to expect at least some of the proponents of the Assembly policy to have it right. After all, Wales has provided a Prime Minister, a deputy Prime Minister and a Minister of State, Home Office, as well as a whole host of constitutional experts.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: It has also provided Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Roberts: They all went to the Principality to say that Wales needed a devolved Assembly. The people of Wales rejected that policy decisively. In Wales it was not merely a vote against the Assembly. It was far more than that. It was a vote of confidence in the democracy of Westminster. It was an expression of faith and confidence in the present system that allows the Welsh people to achieve their democratic aspirations in this Assembly, in this Parliament, as they have done for over 500 years. I think that it is natural that we should say to those who so misjudged the mood of Wales, who were so wrong about a major policy, that it is time that they went to the country, that it is time to put their stewardship to the test.
  Mr. Gwynfor Evans: I should like to correct one point in the hon. Gentleman's speech. Five hundred years ago we were very near the Glyndwr wars and Wales had not been incorporated into England. Therefore, there were no Welsh MPs in this House.
  Mr. Roberts: It is true that I could argue about 400 years of history for that particular part of Wales, but I hope that the hon. Member for Carmarthen is not rejecting Monmouthshire. I hope that he is not saying that that border area, which we are proud to call part of the Principality, was not represented in Westminster. If he says that, he should look at his Welsh history books again. He is talking about a small part of Wales. He should know better than to try to teach me history.
  Unemployment has gone up in the Principality from 38,000 to 88,000. I do not claim that the total responsibility for that lies with the Labour Government. I readily concede that other factors, such as the decline in the steel industry, have caused it. However, I think that the Labour Government could have been a little more honest in Cardiff in 1974 when their candidate who stood against me made his splendid appeal "Vote Labour and save East Moors." People who knew better than he should have hold him that there was no way of saving East Moors steelworks once it had been decided to nationalise it.
  Mr. Madden: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that an equally misleading
  544
  slogan was the one which faced many of us during the referendum on the Common Market? It was "Jobs for the boys".
  Mr. Roberts: I did not see that particular slogan, but let me make it quite clear that a "Jobs for the boys" atmosphere was there during the devolution campaign, though it referred to a different set of boys. I concede that much of the unemployment in Wales can be attributed to the world economic position, but it is reasonable to say that those who voted Labour in Wales in 1974 had the right to expect that employment would be at a higher level than it is now.
  My indictment of the Labour Government in this respect is tonight confined to their treatment of small businesses. The small businesses of Wales have no confidence in the future. These small businesses would take on more workers, including young people, if they had confidence in their economic future. Because a new Government, making a new start with a fresh mandate, can bring new life to the Principality, I shall support the Opposition tonight with pride and pleasure.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Michael McGuire: I hope that the hon. Member for Cardiff, North-West (Mr. Roberts) will forgive me if I do not take up the points he made in his speech.
  The hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) spoke for the largest group of the Northern Ireland Members. The group is split into two or three, each with its own leader. The hon. Gentleman referred to newspaper criticisms of the Government trying to stay in power and the attempts of the Opposition to unseat the Government. He said that such criticism about the objectives of the Opposition and the Government was completely misleading. He is absolutely right. The Opposition are trying to bring down the Government. The Labour Party would have seized its chances just the same. Having had their fingers burnt in the past, the Tories had to wait until they were certain that one of the larger minority groups in the House was with them. Perhaps they were looking for two groups to go with them. They then did what any Opposition would do. It would have been said that they did not have enough sense to come in out of the

  545
  rain if they had not tried to seize their opportunity.
  I refer to the moving speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt). Most of us who listened to it were deeply moved. I take on board the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), who said that we on this side of the water have a record of mishandling Irish affairs. We were listening to a colleague who I believe, considering the policies, the party and the community he represents, has been, badly treated in some respects. We were listening to a man who was tortured because his deep instinct is to support the Labour Government. But he genuinely felt that he could not do that. We all admired the clarity with which he explained his position. I am sorry, though I understand his reasons fully, that he finds himself in such a position.
  I do not want to dwell on Northern Ireland, but if we had wanted—though it may be too late now—to salvage something, it would have been better to have said to the hon. Member for Belfast, West that though disquieting rumours and damaging reports have been produced we could not, in our hearts and souls, say that we were satisfied with the discussions that have taken place on those issues. Certainly we would not be satisfied if we were looking at these matters objectively—say, at another country's record.
  If we had said to my hon. Friend that we would set up a searching inquiry—which I believe is our bounden duty—and remedy those things which he felt could be remedied without constitutional change, I think that he would have done what his deep instinct tells him to do. He would have gone into the Lobby tonight with the Labour Members and other hon. Members who might be joining us.
  I refer to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) made a critical attack upon it and described the changes in her voice as it became more mellifluous and less harsh and strident. I did not notice any great change in her delivery, but I think that it was a poor speech for the occasion. I say that as one who probably makes
  546
  more poor speeches than anybody else—but then I am not the leader of a great party. The right hon. Lady's speech was too low key. I believe that the Prime Minister won the confrontation hands down. He could hardly fail to win it. My right hon. Friend is the best batsman I know on a sticky wicket. Even when his case is not too strong, he has the great ability—which I have described to him—of being able to make comfortable a man on the scaffold. He has assurance, balance, poise and power. Let us be honest. It was Cassius Clay fighting a lightweight and there was only one winner. A referee might have stopped the fight after a couple of rounds.
  The importance of speeches is not how they are delivered in the House but how they read. The speech of the right hon. Lady was made for a much wider audience than the Chamber. It was not made to rally the troops into the Lobbies. We condemn bad speeches and appreciate good speeches. Her speech did not live up to the occasion. I hope that in the election campaign, whether it comes in a few weeks or a few months, the public will see, as we have, that the Tories have no real policy. The Tories are bragging on a pair of deuces. They have nothing to offer. The Leader of the Opposition will have to deliver the goods and tell the people what she really means. Then we shall be able to expose the Tories.
  Some hon. Members have mentioned the so-called deal by the Government to keep themselves in power for another few months. A new scheme is to be introduced to help constituents such as those of the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley). Naturally, the Welsh nationalists have said that the scheme is a result of their initiative. That is not true. It is modelled on the miners' scheme.
  As an ex-miner I support the scheme for miners and I wish that more money could be spent on them. Before he became a Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven (Dr. Cunningham) tried to persuade the Government that other groups of workers needed assistance. Many workers who suffer from industrial diseases need help, not only the slate quarry workers. My hon. Friend said then that iron ore workers were also worthy of consideration. He was right.

  547
  The situation must be explained clearly. As I told the Prime Minister yesterday, I am glad that he has set the record straight. We were told to wait—and this was reasonable—for the Pearson Commission, set up by the Opposition to research these maters, to report. Unfortunately, the Pearson Commission did not recommend introducing the type of scheme which I and everybody in the House want. The Government referred to this in the Queen's Speech. I believe that they have moved as fast as is reasonable.
  The scheme is born out of the Labour Party's wish to establish a scheme to help those groups of workers who most need help. Without Government help, miners who have benefited from the Government scheme would not have so benefited. Without the Government, this extra group of workers would not be helped.
  A worker who suffers from a dust disease can sue an employer only if that employer is in business. That is why the Government are setting up the scheme, which is parallel to that which operates in the coal mining industry. Such diseases often take a long time to develop and there is a time limit within which claims can be made. Miners found the situation difficult and it was necessary for the Government to intervene.
  Mr. Wyn Roberts: Is the hon. Member aware that when the Prime Minister announced the publication of the Pearson report on 16 March last year he agreed with me that hon. Members on both sides of the House had been anxious about silicosis in quarrymen? I told him then that a special scheme would have to be devised for such quarry workers.
  Mr. McGuire: The hon. Member confirms that this is an issue which has not just been concocted. It has a long history. The hon. Member confirms that it is wrong to believe that this is a cobbled-up deal. There is a parallel scheme on which it will be modelled.
  I asked the Prime Minister yesterday if the Government's purpose was—as it should be—to help those who most need it and who are helpless without Government intervention. I have devised a scheme to help a special group of workmen who have been left behind for historical reasons. I refer to the category
  548
  of workmen's compensation cases which are in limbo. The first category of such cases involves those who are severely disabled or totally incapacitated. In money terms—and that is what matters—they are neither worse nor better off than the worst incapacitated cases under the new scheme. I am talking of the scheme which was introduced 31 years ago on 5 July 1948.
  The second category comprises those workers who computed their claims for miserable sums of money. Some have lost thousands of pounds vis-a-vis the new scheme. I hope that the Government will examine that, although I understand that legally it may be a hornet's nest.
  My scheme is designed to help those who are known as the "latents". Those involved can often demonstrate by the loss of a limb or an eye that they are mutilated or badly injured. However, under the old workmen's compensation scheme compensation was related solely to provable loss of earnings, which these men cannot prove. Such people will carry their injured bodies to the grave and nothing will be done to help them.
  The Pearson Commission did not recommend that such people should be given assistance, although their grievance is as great as that of any other worker. Under my scheme such people would be medically examined and the medical board would pronounce on their unfitness. The Government are sympathetic, as I would expect them to be. However, they have taken the advice of civil servants who say that the scheme is too complicated. They ask how such people can authenticate their injuries. They will do it like most of the miners, through the permanent relief societies which have kept records for over a century. It is astounding how ordinary people safeguard documents that are 40 or 50 years old. I believe that there will not be the difficulty that the Government envisage. If we do not advance the scheme, we shall be penalising those who can authenticate their injuries. No Government should do that.
  I hope that the scheme which has just been announced is the precursor of a deeper and more searching inquiry that is required into other categories of workmen. If no other party helps to do that, this Labour Party is bound to and was founded to help. I have always supported

  549
  this Government—not just when it has been politically popular—because I was not sent to the House for the luxury of defeating Labour Governments. My job is to come here and sustain them. The outcome of tonight's debate will be, as the Duke of Wellington said about the battle of Waterloo, a damned close-run thing. I hope that at the end of the day, when the Whips come round, it will be our Whips who will announce the vote and that the Opposition will have to wait a few more months before they can hope to get their hands on the levers of power.
  At that time, they will have to declare their policies instead of saying "You are the Government. You announce your policies". We shall be able to examine those policies, which I believe that the public will find wanting. That will result in the return of a Labour Government with a sufficient majority for us not to contemplate allies who sit on other Benches.
  8.11 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Shersby: I hope that the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire) will forgive me if I do not follow his interesting and important speech about industrial diseases.
  I support the motion moved by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I do so on behalf of my constituents in Uxbridge, a constituency on the western perimeter of London. We have heard speeches from Irish Members and Members from other parts of the country, but I am probably one of the first London Members to speak.
  My constituents see in Westminster a weak Government who are tottering from one crisis to another, under the leadership of a Prime Minister who seems to everybody, except, perhaps, his own supporters, to be more interested in hanging on to his job than in the overall interests of the country. I was particularly glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) referred to the most important matter that should be uppermost in our minds when we come to vote at 10 o'clock this evening—the good of the country.
  I believe—as do the majority of my constituents—that the good of the country demands a new Government and a speedy general election to end the life of this dying Parliament. We need a new Gov-
  550
  ernment to deal with many of the problems that face our country, before any further consideration can be given to the question of devolution.
  Most of my constituents are opposed to the form of devolution that was embodied in the Scotland and Wales Acts. They supported me in voting for the 40 per cent. "Yes" vote rule which was inserted in both those important constitutional Acts. As a London Member of Parliament, I am in no doubt that their support was genuinely expressed because they believed that such important constitutional matters should not be decided on a simple majority.
  Therefore, they are somewhat at a loss to understand how and why it is that, when the 40 per cent. was not achieved in Scotland, and when the Welsh Assembly was voted against overwhelmingly, the Government have been reluctant to stage an early debate and allow a vote on the repeal orders. My constituents see the activities of the Government over the past few weeks—even more so over the past few days—as those of a Government who are wheeling and dealing to keep power at all costs, to deny them the right to cast their vote to decide who will govern the country in the next Parliament. They no longer believe that the minority Labour Government have any real authority or mandate to engage in further discussions about this kind of devolution. That is why I would not have supported any attempt by the Prime Minister for more discussions before a debate took place on the repeal orders.
  Another important and almost overriding aspect of Government policy in which my constituents have no confidence is their housing policy. They see a Government who, only in the last week, have taken steps to prevent my young constituents from buying their own homes if they have not been tenants of the local authority for more than two years. At the point when many young couples who come to see me every week in my constituency surgery were about to exchange contracts, the Secretary of State for the Environment said "No, you cannot buy those homes unless you have been a tenant for two years". That has caused enormous anger in my constituency.
  It is not just the prevention of purchase which has caused that anger. There

  551
  are other matters which go deeper than house purchase which anger young people; for example, stamp duty. Four years ago it yielded revenue of about £40 million. Today it yields revenue of about £140 million. The Chancellor of the Exchequer increased that duty as part of his policy of taxing us until the pips squeak. On a house costing £30,000 he put up the stamp duty from £300 to £450; on a house costing £40,000 the increase was from £400 to £800; and on a house costing £45,000 the increase was from £450 to £900. In my constituency there are now very few houses that can be bought for less than £20,000 and few that can be bought for less than £30,000. Therefore, young people are faced with another tax, a tax which prevents them from owning their own homes. They want to see that tax swept away by a Conservative Government.
  In Uxbridge today, many people are totally disillusioned with the Government's housing policy. It is well known that the Labour Party would, if it could, end the discounts on council houses so that they can be sold at the full inflated market value. That is another powerful reason why many of my constituents wish me to vote against the Government tonight.
  Perhaps the most important reason is the lack of incentives and the Government's inability to restore a sense of hope to people about their ability to improve their earning capacity and their standard of living. They know full well that Britain is the lowest paid and the highest taxed country in Europe. How are they to be encouraged to produce more real wealth when they compare their lot with those of their friends and relations in other countries? Australian family men, for example, earning average incomes, pay less than one-tenth of their income in tax, compared with the starting rate in Britain of 25 per cent. The Americans, the French and the Japanese all pay less tax than the average Briton. Unfortunately, the people of this country are beginning to feel that they are little better off working than they would be living on social security. Many hon. Members know that in most cases that is not so, but it is a feeling that goes deep into the community and it is part of the malaise from
  552
  which we are suffering. That can be removed only by a new Government.
  In my constituency there was a Labour council for seven years and it ran up a loan debt of £150 million. I am glad to say that those days are over. We now have a Conservative council which runs our affairs efficiently. However, the memory of those seven years will take a long time to erase.
  An announcement has been made today about an increase in the retirement pension. I welcome the increase, as I am sure every hon. Member does, but some of us may feel that it is an interesting and rather strange coincidence that it should have been announced in a debate on a no confidence motion. There is one important group of old-age pensioners for whom no relief has been announced today—those who have scrimped and saved to pay for their retirement.
  Those who pay the high penalty for the "crime" of saving are those who pay the investment income surcharge. Many retired people in my constituency want nothing more than to get rid of the Government so that the surcharge can be drastically reduced or removed. It is a tax on incentive and on saving, and it is typical of the Socialism that we have had to endure for the past five years.
  It is time for the Government to go. They have sat here for too long wheeling and dealing, wriggling and trying to postpone the evil day. The people of Britain want an election and a new Government. I believe that they want my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition as Prime Minister before many weeks have passed. For that reason, I shall vote for the motion.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: One of the characteristic eccentricities of the House is for Conservative Members to say, to reactions of amazement, shock and horror, that they intend to support a Conservative motion of no confidence in a Labour Government. By some magical means, they translate that into a ready understanding with some constituents—they do not give the exact number—with whom they have spoken and who give them full support.
  That is characteristic of the Tories. They are not acting from principle. Their principle is opportunism. As the Prime

  553
  Minister pointed out, the SNP put down a motion and the Tories went into action to follow it up. The Tories did not produce their motion for any reasons that they could adduce about the state of the nation or the economy. All that they have done is to go round doing the sort of wheeler-dealing of which they accuse us and counting the votes among the minority parties. When they start criticising us for wheeler-dealing, they should remember that that is exactly what they are doing as a cloak for their own inadequacies.
  The Opposition often betray a duality of standards. I was staggered to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) that the chairman of the Conservative Party could be receiving £30,000 per year from Pirelli, a company which is apparently overcharging the Post Office by £9 million a year. If that is right, what about the Tory chairman taking some individual responsibility? The Tories are the party of individual responsibility. They believe in a hierarchical system. They complain that the highly paid have to pay too much tax. Was their chair-man, Lord Thorneycroft, derelict in his duty because of the tax burden, or was it simply because of the system that they support in which the top elite seem to get away with virtually anything, but if a group of gravediggers in Liverpool come out on strike they are accused of dereliction of duty, even though they are only ordinary working people on £40 or £50 a week? That is an interesting duality of standards.
  I hope that in the next few weeks the Tory attitude towards trade unions and trade unionists will be brought out into the open. While the Tories bitterly criticise trade unions, a large number of Tory Members are in the tightest organised closed shop in the world, the Inns of Court, the archaic and old-fashioned system of education which perpetuates the class system in our legal profession. They are busy lining their pockets as fast as they can with parliamentary adviserships and company directorships. But what do they say to ordinary working men and women such as lorry drivers and local authority employees? Those workers are told that they must work full-time, work harder and pull their belts in because rates are
  554
  too high. All the time those Tory Members are busy accumulating as much as they can. Their philosophy is that of greed and they are busy supporting it.
  Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: While my hon. Friend is on the subject of double standards in the Conservative Party, perhaps he would like to comment on another example. The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby), who has now left the Chamber, complained bitterly about rich pensioners being the subject of the earnings surcharge, but while he makes that plea from the heart on behalf of the better-off pensioners the Opposition spokesman said in a debate in the House that the £10 Christmas bonus for pensioners should be means-tested. Is that not another example of the Conservatives' double standards and hypocrisy?
  Mr. Cryer: My hon. Friend is right. The previous speaker, the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Shersby), has hastened from the Chamber and is therefore not able to hear our interesting interchange.
  The Leader of the Opposition made much play in her low-key and ineffective speech about the position of the trade unions. The Conservatives think that there is some political advantage to be gained from that, just as when the tanker drivers and the lorry drivers went on strike the Conservatives thought that there was a political advantage to be gained from declarations of a state of emergency. Of course, both those strikes were settled. The Tories want conflict while the Labour Party is in office.
  The Conservatives' solution is, again, that trade unions should be wreathed round in legal circles. Some Tory Members ought to declare their interest in that solution because they would stand to make a pretty penny from some of the court actions.
  It is worth looking at the record of the Government, against whom the Conservatives have tabled a motion of no confidence, and compare it with the record of the last Tory Government. They had exactly the same attitude when they came to power in 1970. They said that they would have an Act and put all sorts of legal restrictions on the trade unions.
  In the four years of the Conservative Government, the country lost more than 50 million days in strike action. In the first four years of this Government, the

  555
  figure is about 29 million days—about one-half. Our industrial relations record is 100 per cent. better than that of the last Tory Government.
  In 1972, the year after the Industrial Relations Act and the year when it really came into operation, there were a record 23 million days lost in strike action because that Government's attitude was one of conflict.
  The Tories talk about the imposition of secret ballots by law. They had them when they were last in Government. Have they forgotten that they imposed a secret ballot on the railway unions? One result was a very high poll—87 per cent.—but the other result was that 81 per cent. of those union members voted for strike action. The Conservatives have tried their magical solution in industrial relations, and it failed miserably.
  No one suggests that this Government's record on industrial relations is perfect. Conservative Members may chortle at that. We are not claiming perfection.
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Just the best.
  Mr. Cryer: Of course, we are claiming that we are the best. Our record proves it. We are 100 per cent. better in terms of days lost by strike action during a Labour Government; there have been 50 per cent. fewer days lost. That represents a considerable improvement over the legal web which the Conservative Government tried to spin when they were in office.
  It is worth bearing in mind that five years ago, when a friend of mine who is a bricklayer wanted to become mayor of Keighley, he was told by his employer "You can become the mayor of Keighley, but you can collect your cards on the way out and you are not to come back." That was the position for many workers.
  I know that this is hard for Conservative Members to understand, but the Employment Protection Act remedied that position. It is recognised that workers make a contribution to civic, local and national life in many ways. That Act is an important pillar in the record of the Labour Government. It has given workers a decent position in society. It has given them the right not to be sacked unfairly. It has produced a degree of improvement and justice for the ordinary employee.
  556
  However, the Conservative Party has made constant attempts to whittle down that Act. The Conservatives want to erode that degree of protection because they want to remove the rights of working men and women under that Act. Only a Labour Government are sufficiently concerned about working men and women to enact that kind of legislation.
  My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister mentioned the improvements in pensions brought about under the Labour Government. Labour has a very good record on pensions, a record which we are proud to argue. Furthermore, we have improved social security benefit.
  Let us consider the background to the improvement in social security benefits. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat) and some of his Conservative colleagues have bitterly attacked those who are least able to defend themselves. They have described those on social security as scroungers. We have argued the matter, and we have demonstrated that it is important to have a decent system of social security.
  Let me turn to the subject of unemployment. We all agree that the level of unemployment is too high. Nobody knows that more keenly than my Labour colleagues and myself.
  Mr. Alan Clark: Stay off.
  Mr. Cryer: I do not mind staying off, because the record of the Conservative Party has meant that each time we have tried to save jobs Conservatives have voted against us. They voted against the saving of British Leyland and are always keen to attack any British company that contains any degree of public investment. They are week after week selling the British nation short.
  When we saved British Leyland, we saved 250,000 jobs directly, and between British Leyland and Chrysler we saved 10,000 small businesses employing fewer than 200 workers. The Tories voted against our proposals.
  These ripples would spread from British Leyland throughout the country. As a result of Tory policies, every job in West Yorkshire Foundries, a firm in my constituency, would be threatened. That firm was saved because the Labour Government saved British Leyland.
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: If the Labour Government have been so marvellous to workers and have saved so many jobs, how has unemployment doubled?
  Mr. Cryer: I do not want to go into the reasons why the world experienced a recession. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course, we have had a world recession. The Opposition may not have noticed the erosion in the British manufacturing base as a result of increased import penetration. The Labour Government produced the multi-fibre arrangement on textiles, which is not working too badly. The deficiencies in the MFA are due to the EEC, of which I am sure the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) is a fanatical supporter.
  We arc facing difficulties, as everybody would agree, but if we had had a Conservative Government pursuing their policies there would almost certainly have been 1 million more people on the dole. That is the reality of Conservative noninterventionist policies. What do the Conservatives intend to do about the regions? What are their policies for areas such as Keighley, an intermediate area, Yorkshire and Humberside, which comprises many intermediate areas, and the special development area of Merseyside? Intervention is required in the economy to try to provide jobs in areas of high unemployment.
  Lastly, a Labour Government is the only possible Government to tackle the multinationals, which, by and large, have the sympathy, understanding and good will of the Conservatives. They virtually have the Tory Party in their pockets. After all, they make substantial contributions to its political funds.
  Mr. Cormack: What about Peachey?
  Mr. Cryer: Peachey was not a multinational. If the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack) wants to talk about Peachey, where was he when I spoke about Peachey in the Consolidated Fund debate last week? I did not notice him around at 3 o'clock in the morning.
  It is important that the Labour Government tackle the multinationals. Thorn in Bradford had a £57 million profit in 1977. It is importing 100,000 colour television sets a year, yet it sacked 2,300
  558
  people last year. My hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire) knows that only a couple of years ago Thorn sacked people in an area of high unemployment.
  I hope that the motion of no confidence will be defeated. This Government have not carried out every aspect of Labour policy, and some of us are pressing for it to be carried out more vigorously. However, they are the only radical Government who can tackle the difficulties that this nation faces, including that of the giant corporations. I hope that the motion will be defeated tonight and that in the not too distant future we shall have an election that will return the Labour Party with an overall majority.
  8.36 p.m
  Mr. Timothy Raison: The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) has made what I believe is his swan song in this House, so I shall not be too rude about him. He is nothing if not brazen. As I listened to him I could not help thinking of an adapted Yorkshire phrase "Where there's brass there's muck". That is how he started his speech.
  To return to the fundamental matters that we are debating, I start with the speech of my right hon. Friend the leader of the Opposition. The first issue must be the economic record of the Government. As many hon. Members have said, their record on unemployment and inflation is appalling, but worst of all is their record on productivity. Although the figures on unemployment and inflation are shaming, those for productivity are peculiarly so. The steady increase in the rate of output per employed person under both Governments until this one came to power has more or less evaporated. That is at the heart of our economic weakness.
  That is partly because people are ceasing to believe that it is worth while working. There is only one area where productivity is booming, and that is in the black economy. Even Labour Members will have noticed the remarks of Sir William Pile a day or two ago. He admitted what many of us have been suspecting, that the extent of the black economy—tax evasion, moonlighting, and so on—is reaching mammoth proportions and losing the country a great deal of revenue. What is worse, it is adding to the bitterness that is growing in our society. The growth of that black economy

  559
  owes much to the way that we have been governed in the last few years.
  The Labour Government have failed to tackle what has created the situation. They have failed to tackle the crazy system of the poverty trap. Although they have had to give ground under pressure, they have failed to tackle the fact that our tax thresholds are far too low. They have pursued incomes policies that have inevitably reduced differentials and increased the belief among low-paid workers and others that it is not worth working and that the system is loaded against those who want to work. When we come to power, absolute priority must be given to solving this problem.
  The Prime Minister tried to talk about the economic achievement of his Government, but he was totally unconvincing. He also started to boast about their social record. How could anyone talk about the social record of the Labour Government when the jewel of the welfare State—the National Health Service—has been reduced to the tragic situation that we see at present?
  Mr. Heffer: Rubbish.
  Mr. Raison: I know that this hurts Socialists to the core because they have had a genuine belief in the National Health Service. Today that Service is suffering from grave demoralisation, which has come about under a Labour Government. To illustrate that one only has to look at the waiting lists since the Labour Government took office. It is there that the crisis in the Health Service can be seen most vividly. Between 1974 and 1978 the waiting lists grew to almost 100,000, and since then they have become even worse.
  What is even sadder is that the Government are doing nothing to remedy the situation. They show no signs of trying to achieve an agreement whereby workers in essential services renounce the right to take industrial action in exchange for guaranteed pay increases. Also the Government show no sign of a determination to establish a crash programme to catch up on the waiting lists. This could be done by a Government of resolution. This Government have no resolution about anything at all, except hanging on to power.
  560
  Just as serious as the failure in the economy and the social services is the Government's failure to use Parliament properly. We have seen this in many different ways. We have seen the repeated failure of the Government to put vital matters before the House for a vote. Time and time again they have ducked asking the House to vote on matters such as their incomes policy White Paper and their public expenditure plans. They have not even put forward the famous concordat for a vote of the House.
  There is no doubt that this has damaged the reputation of the House. It has also gravely damaged the reputation of the Leader of the House. I shall not quote to him what I have quoted before, the passages from his "Aneurin Bevan", in which Bevan denounces deals that were done with the TUC behind Parliament's back and Members have been told later that they must accept the fait accompli. The Leader of the House knows how his hero denounced this in famous speeches in the 1940s. Yet he, above all people, has carried out deals with the unions and has refused to allow Parliament to have a say in the deals that have been cooked up.
  Mr. Cormack:A real Dr. Faustus.
  Mr. Raison: There are signs that Parliament is refusing to accept the deals that are being forced upon it. An example of this is the fact that this debate has been partly triggered off by devolution. Parliament was not prepared to take the Government's attitude on devolution lying down. The bloodiest nose that the Government have had has come from the devolution affair. The House has also rejected the Government's attitude on the reforms of our procedures. When we come to power—as we will shortly—nothing will be more important than using Parliament properly.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: I want to help the hon. Gentleman. He gave us a list. Will he also mention the fact that both parties and the Lord President are responsible for the fact that tonight our catering staff are on strike because we do not pay them a decent pension? We could do so and that dispute could be settled without any problem. Surely Members of Parliament are to blame for that dispute. Perhaps the Lord President will put that right tonight.
  Mr. Raison: Some of us have sympathy for the hon. Gentleman's point.
  When we come to power we must use Parliament as it should be used. We must reform the procedures of Parliament and have respect for it. Above all, we must do something that the Government have never sought to do. We must use Parliament as an instrument to achieve agreement and reconciliation wherever possible. In their earlier moments the Government used Parliament as a means to hammer through their policies without any regard to what other people thought. We must learn from that lesson and avoid that fault at all costs.
  The period since 1974 has shown the total failure and bankruptcy of Socialism. We have seen two versions of Socialism. We started with Socialism proper. We saw that from about 1974 to the time of the economic crisis in 1976–77. There was full-blooded Socialism, epitomised by such measures as the Community Land Act and the other nationalisation measures that were brought in by the Government. Have any of those measures done anything to contribute to the good of the country? Of course not. We saw the ignominious collapse of mark I Socialism. We moved on to a milder social democracy. The ruled the Labour Government after 1976–77, the intervention of the IMF and the decision that public expenditure must be cut. What positive good has been achieved by social democracy or mark II Socialism?
  Perhaps the second form did not do much harm, but there has been nothing in which the Government may claim pride or about which the country may feel that there has been any success. It has been a dismal period, culminating in the experiences of the winter that we have just endured. Socialism has nothing left to offer. It is a wasting disease. It is totally obsolete. It cannot solve the fundamental questions of employment. Nor can it solve the problems of bureaucracy and bigness. Even Government supporters know that that is one of the great weaknesses of Socialism. There can be no Socialism without bureaucracy. Yet bureaucracy is crippling this country.
  Even Socialism's ethical base has withered away in the past few years. That fact has never been more apparent than in the shoddy dealings that we have seen
  562
  over these past few days. Socialism and this Parliament are dying. It would be humiliating to carry on. There is nothing left to discuss, except how long the Parliament will last and when the election will be held. Can it be argued that the country's forum should only talk about that and that we should merely ask one another whether the Government may hang on for another week? The country must go to the polls. I devoutly hope that the general election will be triggered off by tonight's vote.
  8.49 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) made great play about Socialism having died. I wish that in the past few years I had seen a little of the Socialism he decried. The hon. Gentleman also made great play about, as he thought, this dismal Government and Parliament. Yet nothing has been so dismal as the speeches we heard from the Opposition Benches, beginning with that of the Leader of the Opposition. We may not have enough support to win votes tonight. The result is in doubt. However, the Opposition have not won the argument. Just as they did not win the argument in the Chamber, they will not win the argument when we go to the country in the next few months.
  In a vote of confidence debate we must look at the Government's record. Let us consider the record of the Government in relation to the pledges and promises set out in the manifesto. There has probably not been a Government in this country in the post-war period who have implemented so many of their pledges and fulfilled so many of their promises as the present Government. [Interruption.] Perhaps Conservative Members would care to tell me one pledge that we have not implemented. I can point to dozens that we have implemented.
  We promised to repeal the iniquitous Industrial Relations Act 1971, and we repealed it. We promised to repeal the disgraceful Housing Finance Act 1972. It was repealed. We promised to give the people of this country the right to decide whether they wished the United Kingdom to remain as a member of the EEC. We gave them that right and they made their decision. They now accept that they made the wrong decision, but we gave them the right to make it. We

  563
  promised to take into public ownership their assets in the North Sea, and we have taken a large public stake in the North Sea. We promised to set up a National Enterprise Board, a Scottish Development Agency and a Welsh Development Agency. All those bodies have been established We promised to take over shipbuilding, ship repairing and aerospace. Those industries are now in public ownership.
  All these promises were made and they were fulfilled. I am still waiting to hear of one pledge or promise in our 1974 manifesto that we have not fulfilled.
  Mr. Peter Rost rose—
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: The hon. Gentleman has only just found his way into the Chamber. He has not been present during the debate and I do not see why I should give way now.
  Not only have the Government fulfilled the vast majority of the pledges they made in the two election manifestos in 1974. They have done it, moreover, in an extremely precarious parliamentary situation, confronted by all the ragbags of the minor parties on the Opposition Benches, sniping at and harrying the Government all the time. They have also fulfilled these manifesto promises in the midst of a major international economic recession.
  At the same time, we have also fulfilled to a great extent the promises we made in the social and welfare field, with the move towards the comprehensive re-organisation of secondary education, the gradual phasing out of the blot of pay beds in the National Health Service, the ending, after 75 years, of the tied cottage system and the implementation of equal pay and the ending of sex discrimination and racial discrimination.
  There has been a whole battery of social and welfare benefits, such as the mobility allowance and the attendance allowance. All these items have been introduced and constantly uprated. Indeed, we heard the Prime Minister announce today that we are again increasing pensions. They are not poverty pensions, as they were under the Tory Government. The increase is not by any
  564
  means-testing of the £10 Christmas bonus. We are ensuring that pensions are index-linked and will increase accordingly to the increase in prices or wages, whichever is the higher. We made that promise and have kept it. I am not suggesting that the pensioners receive an adequate or civilised pension in the present circumstances, but this House and the country ought to recognise that pensioners are now better off in real terms than they were in 1974. They are far better off under a Labour Government than they ever were in the previous four years of a Tory Government—20 per cent. better off in real terms today. There are also new measures such as the Employment Protection Act 1975 and the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1975.
  I accept that unemployment is intolerably high and at an unacceptable level. [Interruption.] I do not need the hoots of the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman) tonight—not at this stage, please. Representing a region such as mine, with the town of Kirkby in it, where unemployment is at 20 per cent., I cannot but accept that we have a terrible problem of unemployment. I do not need any lecture or fake protestations of sincerity from Conservative Members on this issue. It is also a fact—very rarely recognised—that there are more people in work today in the United Kingdom than there were when we came to office, or than there were in 1973 or 1972.
  Unemployment in this country is no different from that of most of our major competitors. Should the vote go against us and by some mischance the Conservative Party, led by the vindictive Leader of the Opposition, be returned, unemployment would reach unimaginable proportions. For example, 6,000 workers in my constituency are in work because of the Government's employment measures such as temporary employment subsidy, community industry, job relief schemes, the school leaver recruitment subsidy and short-time work. All those workers have jobs—6,000 in Kirkby alone—solely because of the Government's temporary measures. Ameliorative though they may be, temporary though they are, palliative though we accept, they are nevertheless extremely important to those individual men, women and juveniles who at least have a wage, some sense of job satisfaction and the self-respect of being at work

  565
  when they would otherwise be on the dole.
  On Merseyside, 33,000 people are in work today because of this Government's employment measures, and over 100,000 in the North-West alone. Yet every one of them would be on the dole the day after a Conservative Government came into office. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Oh, yes. Perhaps the Opposition spokesman will now stand up and give me a categoric public assurance—an assurance I have been seeking from the leader of his party and every other Opposition Front Bench spokesman—that no person in my constituency who is presently employed because his company is in receipt of grants, loans and subsidies from the Government, running to hundreds of millions of pounds per year, or other employment measures, will lose his job. Will the hon. Gentleman give me that assurance?
  Mr. Russell Fairgrieve rose—
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: The hon. Gentleman does not speak for his party. The monkeys on the Back Benches cannot speak for the Conservative Party. We want the organ grinders on the Front Bench, but they will not give us that assurance—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Did the hon. Gentleman refer to Opposition Members as animals? If he did, he must withdraw the word.
  Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Of course I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker, but it was said metaphorically. I should have thought that Opposition Members, sensitive though they are—and we all know their degree of sensitivity which they take from their leader—would have had a little more sense than to take issue with that. But, of course, if it upsets them, I withdraw it.
  What I was seeking, and what I failed to get from the Opposition Front Bench, was an assurance that none of my constituents who are now in employment because of Government measures will be thrown out of work on the return of a Conservative Government. The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), given the opportunity, refused to give that assurance. So my constituents now know that on the return of a Conservative Government every one
  566
  of the companies in my constituency which for their lifeblood need Government loans, assistance and subsidies will lose them and, therefore, there will be further unemployment.
  We have the suggestion from the Opposition that we should not have any further intervention in industry. Yet the level of unemployment on Merseyside is a graphic and dramatic demonstration of the failure of private industry. Every redundancy that we have had—we have had many, and there are many more in the pipeline—whether it be at Dunlop, Speke, BIC Connelly's in my own constituency, Akzo Chemic, Courtaulds or Thorn, has been caused by a private enterprise company not being prepared to fulfil its responsibilities to the community, to put further investment into the region or to sustain and maintain jobs.
  We on Merseyside know that we cannot afford the return of any Government committed to a policy of non-intervention and to a policy of private enterprise. Employment on Merseyside depends upon an active, interventionist Government prepared to take seriously their duties to industry and to maintain and sustain employment.
  Much more important than that is our attitude to the Health Service and social services generally. What a calamity it would be to have the return of a spiteful, divisive, vindictive party that is dedicated to the principle of making economic charges in the NHS. It will increase prescription charges to an economic level. It will make a charge for a visit to the doctor or a stay in a hospital. It will increase optical charges. It will increase council rents to an economic level. Those are all measures to which the Conservative Party has committed itself, and it has never denied that fact. This would have calamitous consequences for the majority of my constituents, who are low paid and do not have the wherewithal to pay for private medicine or for the payments for which the Conservative Party is calling.
  Labour Members do not have to go on the defensive. Our record is clear and clean, and is a good one. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Conservative Members may jeer, but the country outside will cheer. Conservative Members will be the

  567
  ones to hear those cheers loudest in the next few weeks and months.
  Let there be no mistake that, although my Government have made many mistakes, had many shortcomings and had many failures—I have not been the least quiet in being critical of them—they have a proud and enviable record on employment, industry and the social and welfare services. Whatever else, the country cannot afford the kind of spite, divisiveness and vindictiveness which the Conservative Party peddles as part and parcel of its ordinary everyday philosophy.
  The case has been made out clearly and overwhelmingly, not least by Labour Back Benchers. I have every confidence that, if the vote tonight does not demonstrate the case that has been made, the vote in the country will do so.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mrs. Jill Knight: The House will be happy to know that I have no intention of following the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk) down the path that he chose to tread.
  I have no idea what will happen in just over an hour from now, but I do know that if the people of Britain were tonight being asked to judge whether they have confidence in the Government they would overwhelmingly say that they have not.
  When all the statistics have been stated, the figures argued, and all the talk about GNP and the average national wage is said and done, the best yardstick of the quality of a Government is the condition of their people. I shall mention some names of which few, if any, hon. Members have ever heard. They are real people, and they will make their judgment on the amount of confidence that they have in the Government. [Interruption.] A few moments ago, an hon. Member talked about taxation of the highly paid. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. All this mumbling is not fair to the hon. Lady who is addressing the House.
  Mrs. Knight: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to mention a pensioner in my constituency, a Mrs. Vera Howell, who wrote to me only last week complaining
  568
  bitterly that, although she is a pensioner, she has to go out to work. She has a very small wage. She is incensed because so much of that tiny wage goes in taxation. That is the fault of the Government.
  I think of Mr. Duncombe and Mr. Phipps, who between them have 24 years' loyal service to a local authority. Both were sacked for one reason alone, namely, that they would not join a union. Mr. Duncombe said "I do not want to join a union. They are all 'Commies' there, and I am not a 'Commie '". Mr. Phipps said "I think that the employer should give the orders and not the union". Mr. Phipps's comments were quite clear. Yet the chairman of the local authority for which both men worked said, in a gem of Socialist Orwellian double talk," We are not sacking these men. They are voluntarily putting themselves out of a job". That is the Government's fault.
  I mention Mrs. Cloak, who recently broke a leg. Her doctor made three 999 calls to get her into hospital. The ambulance men refused to take her because, in their judgment, she did not need hospital care. She died a few days later. At her inquest the coroner had something to say about that. Mrs. Cloak's predicament was caused by the Labour Government and by the fact that the Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security is a sponsored member of the union which has caused so much trouble to Mrs. Cloak and others in the National Health Service. He will not stand up for ordinary little people when he is a sponsored member of NUPE which pays such a large sum annually to his constituency office. If the position were reversed and an hon. Member on these Benches was so blatantly at the beck and call of any vested interest as the right hon. Gentleman, there would be a riot.
  I mention Mrs. James, of Birmingham, who complained to me only this morning about rising prices. That, again, is the Government's fault. I mention four children—I shall not give the surnames—named Jane, John, Bill and Jenny, all of whom have been denied schooling at a most important time in their educational career because of the failure of the Labour Government to get the schools open.
  I mention Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, of Birmingham, who are very anxious to buy

  569
  their own council house, but the Government have no intention of allowing them to do so. I could mention a hatful of names of small business men who are in grave trouble because of this Government, and a large number of ratepayers who are angry at the way in which Labour local authorities are pushing up the rates. That is the Government's fault.
  Whoever the Government have paid off with bribes and who might perhaps vote for them for that reason, I challenge the Government and warn them most seriously that the ordinary people of this country, in their thousands and millions, have every reason to say, today and tomorrow, or as soon as they are able, that they have no confidence in this Government.
  9.8 p.m.
  Mr. William Whitelaw: Years of experience in Parliament watching the Prime Minister have taught me to look behind the facade and consider the realities. Today, he gave some classic examples of his cover-up technique. He waxed eloquent about support, not sabotage. The Prime Minister knows all about sabotage. He was the man who sabotaged his own colleagues in "In Place of Strife" in 1969, including the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). He was the man who sabotaged my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), when he was seeking to control inflation in 1974, with his disgraceful incitement of the miners at Aberdare. He made great play about confrontation.
  What has the Prime Minister's Government been involved in this winter with the lorry drivers, with the ambulance men, with the gravediggers and with the hospital workers; what are the Government involved in now with the Civil Service, if it is not confrontation? Then came the most bizarre claim of all. In answer to my right hon. Friend's admirably clear and unanswerable exposure of the Government's failure—[Interruption.] Labour Members may laugh their heads off now, but they will find that my right hon. Friend's speech, listened to on the radio, will be a most impressive performance. In answer to my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister referred to his Government's outstanding record of social progress and—[Interrup
  570
  tion.] Labour Members may cheer, but 600 men and women have lost their jobs every day that the Government have been in power. Is that an outstanding record of social progress?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not keep shouting like that. It is not fair to anyone who is addressing the House. The hon. Gentleman I am addressing knows who I mean.
  Mr. Whitelaw: If that phrase about an outstanding record of social progress meant anything in reality and was not falsified by the facts, why did not the Prime Minister put that record to the test at a general election in October 1978? Why did he not accept the widespread feeling in the House and in the country and put that record to the test instead of waiting fearfully for Parliament to force him to do so? The reality of his actions is so very different from his fine words.
  In September 1978 the Prime Minister told the country that he saw no reason for a general election at that time. Whatever the considerations behind that decision, there is no doubt that he was taking a considerable risk in terms of the interests of the nation. He was deliberately prolonging the life of a minority Government into the dying months of a five-year Parliament. Inevitably his Government would be working against a background of uncertainty, political speculation and increasing loss of authority at home and abroad. As he looks back now on the past few months, with the vehemence on the picket lines and the bitterness of the industrial disputes, he must surely have grave doubts about the wisdom of his decision in September. Certainly, some of his colleagues must have grave doubts.
  It is alleged that the Prime Minister was swayed in his final decision last year by the advice of his right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. Apparently then, as now, the Lord President was in favour of hanging on at all costs, in almost any circumstances and no matter what had to be done in the process.
  If the Prime Minister really did listen to his right hon. Friend's advice, that explains a great deal. Whenever we consider the policy failures of the Government in the past four years, we find the

  571
  advice of the Lord President well to the fore. Some of the misguided provisions in the trade union and labour relations legislation that he piloted through the House when he was Secretary of State for Employment have brought considerable trouble on to the heads of his colleagues in the past few months. His attacks on the independence of the judges have done much to undermine respect for the law and have made the task much more difficult for those who are seeking to protect our citizens from the ravages of crime and violence.
  Above all, there has been the right hon. Gentleman's mishandling of the devolution issue, especially the Scotland and Wales Acts. Even in his own constituency area in Wales, his passionate advocacy of the Wales Act was totally repudiated. Only 6 per cent. of the people in Gwent, with whom of course he is supposed to be so closely in touch, actually voted for it.
  The right hon. Gentleman shows no remorse. Not content with leaving a trail of shambles behind him, he is already planning a better future for us all. Only last year at the Moss Side by-election he spelt it all out. He said:
  "We offer you 10 to 15 years of exciting politics in Britain if you have the nerve and courage to stay with us."
  One sees little sign of his colleagues either on the Front or the Back Benches having the nerve or the courage to stay with him now.
  The Government have long since run out of both nerve and courage and this Parliament, on both sides of the House, has certainly had more than enough of the right hon. Gentleman's supposedly exciting politics. As a result of the Prime Minister's decision last September, this Government, and indeed this Parliament, have drifted somewhat aimlessly through what have been, and everyone must recognise this, some very unhappy months for the country.
  We have now come to another moment of decision. This time the House of Commons has the opportunity, collectively, to tell the Prime Minister, in the words quoted by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, "Enough is enough". It must surely be accepted that if the Government were to survive in the vote tonight we should simply be
  572
  prolonging the life of the Government and this Parliament for a few more weeks of uncertainty and doubt for the country. The country would like a really effective Government, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) made clear in his admirable speech. As one who has enjoyed his friendship for a long time, and as a colleague of his in this House over a considerable period, I regret that he is retiring. If this were to be his last speech in the House of Commons, it would certainly be a fine example of his total integrity through all those years.
  If the Government were to survive, no decisions, certainly no unpopular decisions, would be made. Britain's voice in the world would be muted. Worst of all, this Parliament, both at home and abroad, would be written off simply as a forum for petty election manoeuvring. I have heard a great many speeches today and I tell the right hon. Gentleman that not only on this side of the House but on his own side there was a widespread desire and belief that we should have a general election at the earliest possible moment.
  During a great deal of the time that I listened I heard the election speeches of some of the Prime Minister's colleagues, particularly of those who will not come back to this House after the next general election. I understood the reason for them. Surely that cannot be good for the value of this Parliament and, indeed, for democracy in our country, which should, I suggest, mean a great deal to us all.
  This afternoon the Prime Minister gave us no clear reasons why this Parliament should continue. Indeed, he tried to pretend that the time might be available to discuss constitutional problems in the United Kingdom. But his record since the devolution referendum must cast real doubts on his sincerity. Of course, the referendum results came as a great shock to the Prime Minister and his colleagues. Therefore, it was not surprising that they begged a little time for further consideration. But last Thursday the Prime Minister showed that his only real intention was further delay.
  Instead of giving the House an immediate opportunity to debate and to decide on the repeal orders in accordance with

  573
  the Scotland Act and the Wales Act, he offered all-party talks. Yet he and the Leader of the House always scornfully rejected exactly the same talks when they were proposed from this side of the House. What the Prime Minister described as a "sham and a shower" in February suddenly in March became a most sensible way of proceeding. As the Prime Minister is sometimes tempted to say, "Ho, ho, ho".
  In any case, how could such talks really be meaningful now under the shadow of an impending general election? As my noble Friend Lord Home said in a statement last week:
  "In terms of practical politics, nothing can happen before a General Election."
  That view was echoed by the Leader of the Liberal Party this afternoon. When at most there are only three effective parliamentary months before there has to be a general election, that judgment must surely be right. It must be sensible to consider the serious constitutional problems involved in a new Parliament, backed with a new authority from the people and some years of life ahead.
  When we consider the handling of economic issues, it is the same story. Prices are rising again. I remind the Prime Minister that under the last Conservative Government the annual inflation rate was 9·5 per cent. Under his Government it has been 15·5 per cent. Those are the figures. The Prime Minister cannot dispute them. Those are the facts.
  Productivity has fallen to ever lower and dangerous levels for the future of our country. Again, the Prime Minister should not be allowed to forget that this January productivity was lower than in what he describes scornfully as "the candle-lit three-day week". Let him not forget that.
  There is a fundamental difference of approach between the economic policies of the two parties. There is a difference of approach to the economic future of the country upon which the people are entitled to express a view.
  We Conservatives believe in the encouragement of free enterprise and initiative with less government, less State interference and lower taxation, particularly on earnings. The Labour Party apparently believes, with varying degrees of enthusiasm, in more nationalisation, more
  574
  Socialism and more Government interference, including, it seems, the threat to undermine press freedom with a Government newspaper financed from Government funds.
  What can be the purpose of delaying the people's choice between those alternatives for a few more months of drifting Government and a moribund Parliament?
  On the important issues of industrial relations arising out of recent industrial troubles, the Prime Minister has paralysed Parliament. He refused even to consider the offer of support made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for extending the use of the secret postal ballot, for action on secondary picketing and for promoting voluntary, no-strike agreements in the public sector. Yet there is no doubt that such simple measures would command widespread support in the country.
  When it comes to Britain's influence in the world, further delay would certainly be as disastrous—if not more so. There are important and difficult problems to be faced and solved in Europe. In the Middle East, there is the oil problem about which the Prime Minister rightly waxed eloquent. They are grave problems which, I believe, must be tackled in the context of a new Government and a new Parliament. That is the issue upon which we differ—not about the difficult problems. The more that the Prime Minister stresses those problems, the more he makes my case for having a general election at the earliest possible moment.
  There are the problems in Africa, particularly following the Rhodesian elections. No one can forget that this Government and the country have a special responsibility in the matter. We have kept that responsibility, we have claimed it and we have to discharge it. Again, we should discharge it with the authority of a new Government backed by a new Parliament with a proper life ahead of it. Again, that is a strong argument for a general election.
  Therefore, in our own interests and in the interests of the world, it is essential that a British Government should speak with real authority. It cannot hope to do that at present and in the months immediately ahead leading up to an inevitable general election. Against that

  575
  background, we have an opportunity tonight to assert the power of the House of Commons in the best interests of democracy. By supporting the motion, we can bring to an end a disastrous Government and a Parliament which has nothing more to contribute to the wellbeing of our nation. In doing so, we shall be acting in the best interests of all our people in all parts of the United Kingdom.
  9.28 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): The right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) was good enough at the beginning of his speech to make a few kindly references to myself. Therefore, it would be churlish if I did not comment upon them. I had intended to start my speech by making a few remarks on the speeches of the representatives of the smaller parties. However, let me say at once to the right hon. Gentleman that I was especially gratified that he quoted—accurately for a change—my words at the Moss Side by-election. So effective were my words on that occasion, and so overwhelming was the force of my argument, that a good Labour Member was returned to the House of Commons. I am not saying that it was entirely due to my words on that occasion, but it shows that the right hon. Gentleman has not picked on the most damning of all indictments against me for what I might have said.
  I shall return later to the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition. First, I should like to refer to some of the extremely important speeches that have been made by representatives of the smaller parties in the House. I do not know whether all hon. Members understand that this is a House in which smaller parties have rights. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I do not know why Conservative Members should jeer so readily. It would be discourteous of me not to reply to those speeches.
  I refer first to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt). I am glad that there were a considerable number of hon. Members in the Chamber for my hon. Friend's speech. All those who heard it, whatever their views, would have been deeply moved.
  576
  My hon. Friend proved again what we on this side of the House have always recognised—that he is a man of great courage and great honour. The House is wise to heed what he says.
  I did not agree with everything that my hon. Friend said about the Government and our conduct in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend is one of my oldest friends in the House, and I believe that when he comes to review everything that he said he will recognise that there were some unjust comments on what has been done by my right hon. Friends. Nevertheless, I respect his speech. Of course, I would have preferred that my hon. Friend could have made a peroration in which he said that he would come into the Lobby with us, but even though that peroration was absent it does not detract from the admiration felt by every hon. Member who heard his speech.
  The hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) also speaks for Northern Ireland. He is well aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland made a statement just under a year ago on many of the matters that the hon. Gentleman touched on. We are pursuing those policies faithfully and properly. Anyone who reviews what the Government have done in that area cannot doubt the straightforwardness and honesty with which we have approached the problems. I do not believe that the hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland, on both sides of the House, can question what I am saying.
  I believe that the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) and his party have made an error in the way that they propose to vote. However misguided the right hon. Gentleman may be if he adheres to his apparent resolution to vote in the Lobby with those who are most bitterly opposed to the establishment of a Scottish Assembly, hon. Members who heard his speech must acknowledge the remarkable allegiance that the right hon. Gentleman commands from his followers. It is one of the wonders of the world. There has bean nothing quite like it since the armies of ancient Rome used to march into battle. It is only now that we see the right hon. Gentleman in his full imperial guise.
  "Hail Emperor, those about to die salute you."

  577
  Which brings me to the Leader of the Liberal Party. He knows that I would not like to miss him out. I am sure that I shall elicit the support and sympathy of the right hon. Lady when I say that she and I have always shared a common interest in the development of this young man. If the right hon. Lady has anything to say about the matter, I shall be happy to give way to her. I should very much like to know, as I am sure would everybody else, what exactly happened last Thursday night. I do not want to misconstrue anything, but did she send for him or did he send for her—or did they just do it by billet-doux? Cupid has already been unmasked. This is the first time I have ever seen a Chief Whip who could blush. He has every right to blush. Anybody who was responsible for arranging this most grisly of assignations has a lot to answer for.
  That brings me to the right hon. Lady. I have never in this House or elsewhere, so far as I know, said anything discourteous to her, and I do not intend to do so. I do not believe that is the way in which politics should be conducted. That does not mean that we cannot exchange occasional pleasantries. What the right hon. Lady has done today is to lead her troops into battle snugly concealed behind a Scottish nationalist shield, with the boy David holding her hand.
  I must say to the right hon. Lady—and I should like to see her smile—that I am even more concerned about the fate of the right hon. Gentleman than I am about her. She can look after herself. But the Leader of the Liberal Party—and I say this with the utmost affection—has passed from rising hope to elder statesman without any intervening period whatsoever.
  I hope that the House will excuse me if I refer to some of the speeches made by representatives of the smaller parties. Although there have been occasional mischievous attacks made on politicians in this House, and sometimes occasionally on myself, I believe that, especially in a Parliament where there is no absolute majority, it is the duty of the Leader of the House to be prepared to enter into conversation with representatives of all parties. What is more, there is not one spokesman or representative of any smaller party in this House who can say that I have misled him on any occasion in any conversation I have had with him. I
  578
  believe that that process assists the House in transacting its business, and I believe that the House of Commons will come to learn that.
  Let me turn to the central theme of the right hon. Lady's speech. She quoted a book which was written by Anthony Crosland, who was a good friend of hon. Members who sit on the Labour Benches. I hope that she will not mind if I quote from a book, published not so long ago, by Reginald Maudling. I do not do this as a taunt, but I believe that it is of major significance to the House in deciding the vote and to the country at large in the more general debate over the coming weeks and months. It concerns a matter of major significance to our country over the past seven or eight years. Mr. Maud-ling wrote of his experience in the Shadow Cabinet:
  "From the start, there was a tendency in the Shadow Cabinet to move away from the Heath line of policy further to the Right: to this I was totally opposed. In particular, I could not support the arguments of Keith Joseph, who was inclined to say that all we had done in the Government of 1970–74 was wrong and not true Conservatism. I totally disagreed with this, because it seemed to me that Keith was fully entitled to measure himself for a hair shirt if he wanted to, but I was blowed if I could see why he should measure me and Ted at the same time."
  I am sorry that we do not have the assistance of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). That was just a prelude, and Mr. Maudling continued:
  "I could not help recalling Selsdon Park, and the swing to the Right in our policies which occurred then, and how long it had taken in Government to get back to the realities of life. I feared that the same thing was beginning to happen again."
  I believe that that is an authentic account of what happened in the Shadow Cabinet when the right hon. Lady, out of passionate conviction, led her party back to the Selsdon Park policies. That is the reality of the matter and the reason why the right hon. Lady has never succeeded in securing full political cooperation with the right hon. Member for Sidcup. There is still a great gulf between Selsdon Park Conservatives and those who learnt, in the words of Mr. Maudling, "the realities of life". That comes from someone with great experience in the 1970–74 Government.
  Some of us believe that a major purpose in politics is to ensure that our country shall not again have to live

  579
  through the situation in the period 1970 to 1974. What the right hon. Lady is proposing, which is confirmed by Mr. Maudling's experience inside the Shadow Cabinet, is retreading that path. Nothing more disastrous could happen to our country, not only in industrial relations, which is perhaps most strongly branded on the public's mind, but in almost all areas. It was part of the Selsdon Park policy to abandon support for British industry, drive us into the Common Market on the most disadvantageous terms, and return to the naked laissez-faire policies of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). Those are the policies to which the right hon. Lady has led her party. I give her full credit. She does it because she believes in it. She would hardly deny it. Or will she deny it and pretend that on this issue she has some special new policy of her own?
  The Leader of the Opposition has not been able to explain very successfully to the House her special policy for dealing with devolution. We have made a proposal, but the Leader of the Opposition said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) that she proposed—and I think that this is a fair summary of what she said—talks about talks about talks about talks. That is her proposal for devolution. In fact, I think that my summary of her reply is rather complimentary because what she really proposes is to do nothing at all—[HON. MEMBERS: "Good."] Conservative Back Benchers shout "Good" and the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes) shouts louder than anyone, but the Leader of the Opposition has, on the devolution question, torn up all the original policies of her party—the ones on which they fought the last general election—and now she proposes to do nothing. She has no proposals for a Scottish Assembly or any form of devolution or progress in that direction.
  If that is her course, she has come round in a big circle. I will not say full circle, because she has never been very much in favour of devolution. She has torn up the proposals that her party put forward in "The Right Approach" not so many years ago. At that time she said:
  580
  "in our view the Union is more likely to be harmed by doing nothing than by responding to the wish of the people of Scotland for less government from the centre."
  What the right hon. Lady is doing is what she said a few years ago she was not prepared to do.
  We believe that if this House says that it will wipe the Scotland Act off the statute book without proper consideration, very serious injury could be inflicted on the United Kingdom and on the Union itself. This House of Commons should pay resepect to the referendum, even if it does not comply with the full requirement of 40 per cent. laid down in the Bill. It was on that basis that we made our proposal to the right hon. Lady and to the other parties. If we win the vote tonight, we will renew these proposals. I hope that every section of the House, whatever its preliminary views on the matter, will be prepared to discuss these issues afresh, otherwise there will be a deep gulf and breach, which will grow in years to come, between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. That would be a highly dangerous development. I hope that Conservatives will have second thoughts on the subject.
  In her speech today, the right hon. Lady sought to make us forget what happened in the years of the previous Conservative Government. She also sought to give a very peculiar impression of the kind of legacy the Conservatives left behind for the Labour Government who came to power in 1974. It is interesting to note the things that she did not mention at all. She did not say a word about the balance of payments. I do not know whether she regards that as a matter of any significance. The fact is that the deficit in our balance of payments in the year that she and her right hon. Friends left office was the biggest in our history—even bigger than the deficit that the Tory Party left us in 1964. But of course she wants all that to be wiped away from the public memory. She wants to have wiped away from the public memory also the real figures of the rate of inflation when the Conservatives left office—what is more, a rising rate of inflation. There was a rate of inflation of 14 per cent. in February, with 15 per cent. and more in the pipeline, and a prophecy then of 20 per cent.—
  Mr. Rost: What about 8·4 per cent.?
  Mr. Foot: We have heard the old parrot cry from all the right hon. and hon. parrots before, and I dare say that they will utter it again. We shall hear it all through the general election campaign, but it will not alter the fact that the Conservatives left us a rising rate of inflation, zooming upwards, with threshold payments inbuilt to make the rate of inflation continue upwards. That is what they left us, and what we have done is to bring the rate down to less than half what it was when the right hon. Lady and her right hon. and hon. Friends were put out of office. That is another of the major aspects of what has occurred that the Conservatives wish to leave out of the reckoning.
  Worst of all, perhaps, the greatest disservice that the right hon. Lady does to the country in the way in which she presents the argument is that she seeks to pretend that all the burdens and problems that we have had to contend with in the past four years—and nobody can say that the storm has not been a fierce one—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] The Conservatives think that there is no storm blowing outside. So ignorant are they of the outside world that they think that there is a storm blowing only here. So incompetent and ill equipped are they to try to put things right that they do not even trouble to know what is happening in other parts of the world.
  When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister goes to conferences to meet the leaders of the United States, Japan and other countries, all that the right hon. Lady and her friends can do in the House is to jeer and sneer as if those were matters of no significance. Moreover, the right hon. Lady does something worse. She says that in some way or other this country has been demeaned in the councils of the world during these past four years. There is no basis for that. It is not what the leaders of the other countries say; it is only what the Leader of the Opposition in this country says. That is not what the other countries have said about the policies that we have advocated at the summit meetings.
  Why does not the right hon. Lady say whether she agrees or disagrees with the propositions that we have put at those summit meetings? It is because she wishes to mislead the people of this country into thinking that there is a problem only
  582
  here, that there is no problem in the wider world. We have had this from the Conservative Party on many occasions before. It has happened so often in our history, and I believe that it will happen again in the coming months when the public go to the polls to decide the issue. The argument must be lifted from the levels where the right hon. Lady would have it to the level of seeing what is happening to our country as a whole. Anyone who looks can see a very different story from the one told by the right hon. Lady today.
  It is not the case that we have failed to grapple with all the problems in the past four years. We have started to deal with them, even with the limited power that we have had in this House. We have also, despite all the storms, despite all the setbacks, despite all the hardships, carried out major programmes of social reform at the same time. It is because we were determined to carry out those social changes, those social reforms, those improvements in the social services, despite all the difficulties, determined to share better the wealth produced by this country, even if that wealth was not as great as we wanted to it to be, that we have been able to weather the storm and prepare for other times.
  So what will happen? What will once again be the choice at the next election? It will not be so dissimilar from the choice that the country had to make in 1945, or even in 1940 when the Labour Party had to come to the rescue of the country—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  Mr. Michael Brotherton rose—
  Mr. Foot: It was on a motion of the Labour Party that the House of Commons threw out the Chamberlain Government in 1940. It was thanks to the Labour Party that Churchill had the chance to serve the country in the war years. Two-thirds of the Conservative Party at that time voted for the same reactionary policies as they will vote for tonight. It is sometimes in the most difficult and painful moments of our history that the country has turned to the Labour Party for salvation, and it has never turned in vain. We saved the country in 1940, and we did it again in 1945. We set out to rescue the country—or what was left of it—in 1974. Here

  583
  again in 1979 we shall do the same—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The noise in the Chamber prevents me from hearing what the Lord President is saying.
  Mr. Foot: They are trying to stop me from getting your vote as well, Mr. Speaker. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] I do not know why Conservative Members are saying that this is shameful. I think that it is high time that the Tory Party recovered some sense of humour, even if it has lost everything else—[Interruption.] Conservative Members really ought to have had plenty of practice at laughing at themselves over these recent years, and they should make a better effort on this occasion.
  I repeat—and I hope within your hearing, Mr. Speaker—that over the coming weeks and months the British people will make the decision. If the debate is any test, if argument counts for anything, and if overwhelming support from the Govern-

  Division No. 109]

  AYES

  [10.00 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Churchill, W. S.

  Fry, Peter

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

  Alison, Michael

  Clark, William (Croydon S)

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcllffe)

  Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

  Arnold, Tom

  Clegg, Walter

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham)

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

  Cockcroft, John

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

  Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Awdry, Daniel

  Cope, John

  Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

  Bain, Mrs Margaret

  Cormack, Patrick

  Goodhart, Philip

  Baker, Kenneth

  Corrie, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  Banks, Robert

  Costain, A. P.

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Belth, A. J.

  Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

  Gorst, John

  Bell, Ronald

  Crawford, Douglas

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Critchley, Julian

  Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

  Crouch, David

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

  Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Gray, Hamish

  Benyon, W.

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  Grieve, Percy

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Griffiths, Eldon

  Biffen, John

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Grist, Ian

  Blaker, Peter

  du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

  Grylls, Michael

  Body, Richard

  Dunlop, John

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Durant, Tony

  Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell)

  Bottomley, Peter

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

  Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hannam, John

  Bradford, Rev Robert

  Elliott, Sir William

  Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Emery, Peter

  Harvie Anderson Rt Hon Miss

  Brittan, Leon

  Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hastings, Stephen

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Brotherton, Michael

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  Hawkins, Paul

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Farr, John

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Bruce-Gardyne, John

  Fell, Anthony

  Heath, Rt hon Edward

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Henderson, Douglas

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Fisher, Sir Nigel

  Heseltine, Michael

  Buck, Antony

  Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

  Hicks, Robert

  Budgen, Nick

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Hodgson, Robin

  Burden, F. A.

  Forman, Nigel

  Holland, Philip

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Carlisle, Mark

  Fox, Marcus

  Hordern, Peter

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Channon, Paul

  Freud, Clement

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  ment Benches counts for much, it will of course be a very good election and there will be a thumping Labour majority, too.
  We are quite prepared to have an election, but the Conservative Party has always had the idea that it was born to rule, although I should have thought that the country had been cured of that impression long since. It has always thought that everything must be decided according to the desires and whims of Conservative Central Office, that everything else is unpatriotic. Well, we say that this House of Commons should decide when an election takes place, and that the people will decide which Government they will have to follow this one.
  We believe that once the record is fully put to the country we shall come hack here with the real majority that the Labour Government require to govern for the next five years.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 311, Noes 310.

  Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Shepherd, Colin

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Moore, John (Croydon C)

  Shersby, Michael

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Silvester, Fred

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Morgan, Geraint

  Sims, Roger

  Hurd, Douglas

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

  Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  James, David

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd)

  Mudd, David

  Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

  Jessel, Toby

  Neave, Airey

  Speed, Keith

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Nelson, Anthony

  Spence, John

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Neubert. Michael

  Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Newton, Tony

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

  Jopling, Michael

  Normanton, Tom

  Sproat, lain

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Nott, John

  Stainton, Keith

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Onslow, Cranley

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

  Stanley, John

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Osborn, John

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Kilfedder, James

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donald

  King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Paisley, Rev Ian

  Stokes, John

  Kitson, Sir Timothy

  Pardoe, John

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Tapsell, Peter

  Knox, David

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

  Lamont, Norman

  Penhaligon, David

  Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Percival, Ian

  Tebbit, Norman

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Peyton, Rt Hon John

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Lawson, Nigel

  Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

  Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Thompson, George

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

  Lloyd, Ian

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Townsend, Cyril D.

  Loveridge, John

  Pym, Rt Hon Francis

  Trotter, Neville

  Luce, Richard

  Raison, Timothy

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Rathbone, Tim

  Vaughan, Dr Gerard

  MacCormick, lain

  Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

  Viggers, Peter

  McCrindle, Robert

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Waddington, David

  Macfarlane, Nell

  Reid, George

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  MacGregor, John

  Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

  Wakeham, John

  MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

  Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

  Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

  Rhodes James, R.

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

  McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Wall, Patrick

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Ridley, Hon Nicholas

  Walters, Dennis

  Madel, David

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Warren, Kenneth

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Watt, Hamish

  Marten, Neil

  Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Mates, Michael

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Wells, John

  Mather, Carol

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Welsh, Andrew

  Maude, Angus

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Mawby, Ray

  Ross, William (Londonderry)

  Whitney, Raymond

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Royle, Sir Anthony

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Sainsbury, Tim

  Wood, Rt Hon Richard

  Mills, Peter

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Scott, Nicholas

  Younger, Hon George

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Moate, Roger

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Molyneaux, James

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

  Monro, Hector

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Mr. Michael Roberts

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

  Allaun, Frank

  Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Anderson, Donald

  Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Bradley, Tom

  Cohen, Stanley

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

  Ashley, Jack

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Concannon, Rt Hon John

  Ashton, Joe

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

  Buchan, Norman

  Corbett, Robin

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Buchanan, Richard

  Cowans, Harry

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

  Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

  Craigen, Jim (Maryhill)

  Bates, Alf

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Bean, R. E.

  Campbell, Ian

  Cronin, John

  Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  Canavan, Dennis

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Cant, R. B.

  Cryer, Bob

  Bidwell Sydney

  Carmichael, Neil

  Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

  Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

  Carson, John

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Carter, Ray

  Dalyell, Tam

  Boardman, H.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Davidson, Arthur

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Cartwright, John

  Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil

  Judd, Frank

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Kelley, Richard

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Deakins, Eric

  Kerr, Russell

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Kinnock, Neil

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

  Lambie, David

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Dempsey, James

  Lamborn, Harry

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

  Dewar, Donald

  Lamond, James

  Rooker, J. W.

  Doig, Peter

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Roper, John

  Dormand, J. D.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Rose, Paul B.

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lee, John

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Dunn, James A.

  Lever, Rt Hon Harold

  Ryman, John

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Sandelson, Neville

  Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Eadie, Alex

  Litterick, Tom

  Selby, Harry

  Edge, Geoff

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Sever, John

  Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

  Luard, Evan

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  English, Michael

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Short, Mrs Renee (Wolv NE)

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Sillars, James

  Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

  McCusker, H.

  Silverman, Julius

  Evans, John (Newton)

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Skinner, Dennis

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  McElhone, Frank

  Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire)

  Faulds, Andrew

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Snape, Peter

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Flannery, Martin

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Stallard, A. W.

  Fletcher, L. R. (llkeston)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Stoddart, David

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  McNamara, Kevin

  Stott, Roger

  Ford, Ben

  Madden, Max

  Strang, Gavin

  Forrester, John

  Magee, Bryan

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Mahon, Simon

  Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  Marks, Kenneth

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Garrett, John (Norwich S)

  Marshall, Dr. Edmund (Goole)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

  George, Bruce

  Mason, Rt Hon Roy

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Ginsburg, David

  Meacher, Michael

  Tierney, Sydney

  Golding, John

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Tilley, John

  Gould, Bryan

  Mikardo, Ian

  Tinn, James

  Gourlay, Harry

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Tomlinson, John

  Graham, Ted

  Miller, Dr. M. S. (E Kilbrlde)

  Tomney, Frank

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

  Torney, Tom

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Grocott, Bruce

  Molloy, William

  Urwin, T. W.

  Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

  Moonman, Eric

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Hardy, Peter

  Morris, Altred (Wythenshawe)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Morris, Rt Hon Charles R.

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Hart, Rt Hon Judith

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Hattersley, Rt Kon Roy

  Morton, George

  Ward, Michael

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

  Watkins, David

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Watkinson, John

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Weetch, Ken

  Home Robertson, John

  Newens, Stanley

  Weitzman, David

  Hooley, Frank

  Noble, Mike

  Wellbeloved, James

  Horam, John

  Oakes, Gordon

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Ogden, Eric

  White, James (Pollock)

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Huckfield, Les

  Orbach, Maurice

  Whitlock, William

  Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Ovenden, John

  Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Padley, Walter

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Hunter, Adam

  Palmer, Arthur

  Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Park, George

  Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

  Parker, John

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Parry, Robert

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Janner, Greville

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

  Pendry, Tom

  Woodall, Alec

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Perry, Ernest

  Woof, Robert

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Phipps, Dr Colin

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  John, Brynmor

  Prescott, John

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Radice, Giles

  Mr. James Hamilton and

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, now that the House of Commons has declared itself, we shall take our case to the country. Tomorrow I shall propose to Her Majesty that Parliament be dissolved as soon as essential business can be cleared up, and I shall then announce as soon as may be—and that will be as soon as possible—the date of Dissolution, the date of the election and the date of meeting of the new Parliament.
  Mrs. Thatcher: As the Government no longer have authority to carry on business without the agreement of the Opposition, I make it quite that we shall facilitate of the Opposition so that the Dissolution can take place at the very earliest opportunity and the uncertainty ended.

  EXPENDITURE
  Ordered,
  That the Standing Order of 18 November 1974 relating to the nomination of the Expenditure Committee be amended, by leaving out Mr. Philip Goodhart and inserting Mr. David Atkinson.—[Mr Walter Harrison.]

  STRATHCLYDE STRUCTURE PLAN
  Motion made, and Question proposed That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Snape.]
  10.23 pm
  Mr. David Lambie: When I applied for this Adjournment debate, I did not realise that the night chosen would be the night of a censure motion and that I would be the first Labour Member to speak after the result of the vote had been declared, apart from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
  One of the characteristics of this place is that at one moment it can deal with national and international affairs and at the next with constituency and local matters, and, despite the vote that has just taken place, I make no apology for raising a matter that is of interest to my constituents, especially those in the new town of Irvine. I want to address myself to the Strathclyde structure plan and its effect on the role and future growth of Irvine new town. I understand that issues of principle concerning the future role of new towns will not be resolved until the regional council's structure plan has been formally submitted for the Secretary of State's consideration,
  In his letter to me dated 28 February, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State assured me that no decisions had been taken by. the Secretary of State on these issues of principle, including future house building programmes and the rate of growth at Irvine in expectation of that consideration. In view of that assurance, you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may wonder why I raise the subject again in this Adjournment debate.
  In my work as a constituency Member of Parliament, I find that the Strathclyde regional council acts and takes decisions as though the structure plan had already been approved. I begin to fear that there may be some collusion or acquiescence by the Scottish Office in these activities, in spite of the Minister's assurances to me in his letter.
  I view the role of Irvine very much in the context of North Ayrshire, which, as a sub-region within Strathclyde, has problems relating to unemployment and deprivation as severe as any other part of
  592
  the Strathclyde region. The latest unemployment figures for the Cunninghame district show a 13·4 unemployment rate in the area covered by Irvine, Kilwinning and Saltcoats, 10·5 per cent. for Largs, and 17·3 per cent. for Kilbirnie. Those figures are well above the Scottish average.
  With the 682 redundancies announced for SKF Irvine and the threatened loss of 100,000 jobs at Massey Ferguson in Kilmarnock, these already high unemployment figures may go through the roof in the near future. However, there is virtually no mention in the report of how these problems may be tackled either with or without the aid of Irvine new town.
  The structure report assumes that the present drift of population from Glasgow will be arrested by the ability to attract a high proportion of immigrants to Strathclyde. To achieve that aim, Strathclyde intends to discriminate against Irvine new town and other peripheral growth areas in terms of public and private investment.
  In spite of the fact that it will take at least 10 years before the present housing, industrial and environmental policies outlined in the structure report have achieved any significant changes in the population of the older urban areas within the Glasgow conurbation, the slowdown in the growth of Irvine new town is to take place immediately. I believe that unless these regional policies are stopped now they will have a detrimental effect not only on Irvine and North Ayrshire but on the Strathclyde region as a whole.
  Over the past two years the Irvine development corporation has been trying to reach agreement on the level of its rental housing programme. On every occasion when an agreement seemed imminent, Strathclyde retracted and either requested further information or changed its approach. Last year it was only after representations by myself to the Secretary of State—the Minister was personally involved in these representations—that the go-ahead was given for the present developments at Girdle Toll. It would appear that the Strathclyde region wants a major cutback in the corporation's housing programme. It is taking every opportunity to attain that aim.
  Strathclyde councillors, such as Dick Stewart and Charlie Gray, have had meetings with the Secretary of State as part of

  593
  this campaign. Tonight I demand an assurance from the Minister that the present housing programmes, as outlined in the Irvine new town plan and approved by the Secretary of State, be given the go-ahead at once.
  In his response to the regional report, the Secretary of State reaffirmed that Irvine new town would continue to be developed to its target population at a pace to be determined mainly by its success in creating employment which would receive strong support and for which an adequate stock of available housing would be required.
  Irvine—a designated new town in a special development area, backed by BSC Industries Ltd.—can now offer to any incoming industrialist a financial package second to none of any other area in the United Kingdom.
  In the near future I expect, with the help of the Labour Government and the Labour Ministers, and with the help of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who is here tonight, a major breakthrough in employment prospects in Irvine, with announcements by major national and international companies that they are coming to the new town. That is why the present housing programme must be continued and expanded, in spite of the efforts of Strathclyde region to stop that. If the structure plan is accepted, it will also have a marked effect on the role of North Ayrshire and Irvine new town as a location for private housing. In order to give people a choice in housing, both private and public sector housing must be available.
  Recently Strathclyde regional council called in a planning application for a private housing application in Beith, in the Garnock Valley, because it was in conflict with the structure plan. That must not be allowed. I am asking my right hon. Friend tonight to take action against Strathclyde region and instruct it to allow the needed investment in the private house-building sector, not only in Irvine new town but throughout North Ayrshire.
  There is also a conflict in education as well as in housing. With Strathclyde's attempt to cut back in housing, it is also dragging its feet on school building. Before decisions are taken on closing schools
  594
  in the Irvine area, an inquiry is needed into the whole question of educational provisions. To close two primary schools—Bank Street and Redburn—in isolation, without considering what effect this could have in future years, is stupid, especially if the structure plan is not accepted by the Secretary of State for Scotland and expansion goes ahead as planned.
  If the present plans for house building are continued, there will be an urgent need for new schools, both primary and secondary, in the Bourtreehill, Broomlands and Girdle Toll area of the new town. The education committee has approved in principle a proposal for a new Roman Catholic primary school in the Bourtreehill area. This school must be started in this financial year as it is needed now for the present children as well as those families who will come in within the next two years.
  Strathclyde regional council cannot be allowed to say "We shall not give you permission to build new houses, therefore you do not need new schools. There will not be enough children." There is an urgent need for drawing up and implementing a non-denominational secondary zoning plan. I have already drawn the Secretary of State's attention to representations that I have received from the stall and parents of Ravenspark academy on this subject, and I hope that he will take action as a matter of urgency.
  The last aspect of the structure plan that I wish to draw to the attention of the Minister is the proposal that major office developments of over 2,000 square metres should be confined to the Glasgow central area. Irvine development corporation must be allowed to seek employment and to gain a reasonable balance of employment. Irvine and North Argyllshire need to attract office development in order to reduce commuting or migration of office workers out of the North Ayrshire area.
  I have been in contact with the Minister of State, Civil Service Department to try to attract some of the Government Departments which are being dispersed out of London and the South of England. I am arranging a meeting with my right hon. Friend and the chairman of Irvine development corporation to discuss this matter further and to request that Irvine be placed on the list of places being considered for these Civil Service jobs.

  595
  The policies being proposed in the structure plan are restrictive rather than positive, and I believe that they are designed to frustrate the efforts of Irvine new town in meeting the targets contained in the new town plan. If at the end of the consultative period and after a public inquiry the Secretary of State accepts the principles of the structure plan, the people of Irvine new town will have to accept it. Until that time, which I hope will never come, Strathclyde region has no legal right to prevent or slow down the development of the new town. Tonight, when my right hon. Friend replies, I ask him to confirm that fact and to give me these assurances.
  10.35 pm
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Gregor MacKenzie): My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) will appreciate that it is difficult for me to offer a substantial reply to many of his comments on the Strathclyde region structure plan. There are two good reasons why I cannot give a substantial reply, one of which I should have thought was perfectly obvious, namely, that we have not yet received the structure plan. It has not yet been submitted to the Secretary of State.
  While I understand that the plan was approved in its final form by the full council of Strathclyde region earlier this month, it has not been submitted to my right hon. Friend and I understand that it will not be formally submitted until about next month. Thus, although my officials have kept in touch with the various drafts through which the plan has gone, the Secretary of State has not been officially appraised of the final decisions of the regional council. I am sure that my hon. Friend is well aware of that.
  Secondly, even if the plan were normally before the Secretary of State, it would be premature for me to express definitive views on the issues arising from it at this stage, since statutory provision has been made for a prior discussion in an examination in public. This procedure, which replaces the public inquiry into the old style development plan, is a probing discussion of issues selected by the Secretary of State in order to help him decide in what form to approve the plan.
  That is the forum in which such issues relating to the plan as have been raised by
  596
  my hon. Friend this evening should be more appropriately pursued. The examination in public of the Strathclyde structure plan is likely to take place in November or perhaps even December this year.
  The structure plan derives from the regional report of May 1976, which outlined the strategy which the regional council intended to pursue in the period to 1981. Against a background of declining population and employment levels in the region, the major strategic issue identified by the council was the extent to which the existing urban fabric and urbanised land could continue to be used, re-used or improved to meet future demands for development. The council's principal concern, therefore, is the balance which should be struck between the process of urban renewal and demand for the development of green field or "new" land.
  In the light of that concern, the regional council would, in my view, be failing in its duty as planning authority if it did not reach conclusions on issues such as the future role and growth of new towns within the region. But I must stress to my right hon. Friend, as I thought I had in a letter that I wrote to him, that the rate of growth at Irvine and other new towns in Strathclyde, and decisions of specific housing and industrial development, remain firmly with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  In responding to the regional report, my right hon. Friend indicated that the three Strathclyde new towns would continue to be developed to their target populations at a pace to be determined mainly by their success in creating employment. His comments also stressed—no doubt my hon. Friend will recall this—the importance he attached to the new towns securing a more representative social mix through the provision of housing for special needs.
  These views still embody his policy on new towns, and the question of which actual developments are to be allowed to proceed, pending full consideration of the structure plan when submitted, remains a matter for the Secretary of State.
  Following formal submission of the structure plan, the examination in public—even on a fairly tight programme—is unlikely to take place before November.

  597
  Although this appears to be a long delay, I assure my hon. Friend that it is necessary to fit into this period time for objections to the plan, for ministerial consideration of the issues for examination, and the statutory period of notice.
  Our experience in dealing with the Lothian structure plan, which has completed the process, indicates that this timetable is probably the best we can hope to achieve. This means that Strathclyde is unlikely to have an approved structure plan until at least a year after the plan is submitted to the Secretary of State in April. Until that time, decisions relating to Irvine will have to continue to be taken on the merits of the proposals submitted to my right hon. Friend.
  Thus, the Secretary of State's consideration of the immediate building programme of Irvine corporation is not being determined by policy resolutions in the draft structure plan. The corporation's proposals are being assessed in the light of housing plan proposals by the district authorities and the regional council's observations thereon, and the Secretary of State's policies with regard to the provision of housing in new towns—namely, that housing should be mainly employment-led but that specific provisions should be made for housing the elderly, the disabled and other socially deprived categories.
  At the same time, it would be unrealistic to suppose that my right hon. Friend could, or should, ignore views expressed by the Strathclyde regional council, whose statutory responsibilities are directly engaged.
  There have been extensive discussions over the months directed towards reaching agreement on Irvine's housing programme and I regret that as yet these difficulties have not been resolved. Nevertheless, I accept that uncertainties regarding projections of employment in Irvine to which Strathclyde has drawn attention are very relevant to the housing proposals now before the Secretary of State and require very careful examination.
  598
  It is for this reason that my right hon. Friend's decision has been delayed, for it would serve no purpose if at some future date housing were to stand empty in the new town or be filled by people attracted from the conurbation who could not find a job in the area.
  For all the reservations which may be expressed about employment prospects in Strathclyde, which has had more than its fair share of bad news in recent months, the new towns are pressing forward energetically in their job-creating role. While unemployment remains high in Irvine and district, as my hon. Friend said, there can be do doubt whatsoever that the situation there would have been a great deal worse without the presence and efforts of the development corporation. Over 1,000 new jobs in industry were created there between 1977 and 1978 to offset closures and contractions.
  I should like, before closing, to pay tribute to the efforts of Irvine development corporation and the other new towns in Strathclyde in promoting development and growth within the region.
  Such achievement in a period of general economic constraint underlines the important role of new towns as an instrument of Government policy in combating unemployment, within the region and within Scotland.
  I should like to express my appreciation of the energy of the development corporations in seeking out development for Scotland, the care with which they have fostered and encouraged the expansion of industry within their designated areas, and the image of initiative and success which they present, on behalf of the people of Scotland, to the world at large.
  I am sure that the House and those concerned with the development of Scotland and its regions will join me in commending the efforts of the development corporations.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at eighteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  Belize
  Belize
  Indian Journalists' Association (Speech)
  Indian Journalists' Association (Speech)
  Immigrants (Gynaecological Examinations)
  Immigrants (Gynaecological Examinations)
  Cyprus
  Cyprus
  PUBLIC RECORDS
  PUBLIC RECORDS
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Fishing Vessels
  Fishing Vessels
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Woodland
  Woodland
CIVIL SERVICE
  Pensions
  Pensions
  Salaries and Subsistence Allowances
  Salaries and Subsistence Allowances
  Freedom of Information
  Freedom of Information
  Industrial Dispute
  Industrial Dispute
  Civil Servants
  Civil Servants
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office
DEFENCE
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Heart Disease (Research)
  Heart Disease (Research)
  Ulster Defence Regiment
  Ulster Defence Regiment
  Polytechnics (Full-time Equivalent Students)
  Polytechnics (Full-time Equivalent Students)
  Dyslexic Schoolchildren (Medway)
  Dyslexic Schoolchildren (Medway)
INDUSTRY
  Manganese Nodules
  Manganese Nodules
  Selective Assistance (Midlands)
  Selective Assistance (Midlands)
  Wharton Williams Limited
  Wharton Williams Limited
  PA Management Consultants Limited
  PA Management Consultants Limited
  British Steel Corporation (Redundancy Payments)
  British Steel Corporation (Redundancy Payments)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Unemployed Persons (Government Expenditure)
  Unemployed Persons (Government Expenditure)
  Private Beds
  Private Beds
  Children (Long-stay Hospitals)
  Children (Long-stay Hospitals)
  Hyperactive Children
  Hyperactive Children
  Industrial Diseases
  Industrial Diseases
  Chemists' Contractors (Complaints)
  Chemists' Contractors (Complaints)
ENERGY
  Public Bodies (Members' Allowances)
  Public Bodies (Members' Allowances)
  Oil Companies (Sales Policy)
  Oil Companies (Sales Policy)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Members' Salaries
  Members' Salaries
  Severance and Redundancy Payments (Members' Rights)
  Severance and Redundancy Payments (Members' Rights)
  Finance Bill Hearings
  Finance Bill Hearings
WALES
  Welsh Development Agency
  Welsh Development Agency
  National Finance Debates
  National Finance Debates
PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
  Insulated Wires and Cables (Report)
  Insulated Wires and Cables (Report)
EMPLOYMENT
  Special Temporary Employment Programme
  Special Temporary Employment Programme
  Special Measures Training Grants
  Special Measures Training Grants
  Adult Employment Subsidy
  Adult Employment Subsidy
  Small Firms Employment Subsidy
  Small Firms Employment Subsidy
  Closed Shop Agreements
  Closed Shop Agreements
  Redundancy Payments
  Redundancy Payments
  Job Introduction Scheme (Disabled Persons)
  Job Introduction Scheme (Disabled Persons)
  Youth Opportunities Programme
  Youth Opportunities Programme
  Community Industry Programme
  Community Industry Programme
  Redundancy Fund
  Redundancy Fund
  Job Release Scheme
  Job Release Scheme
  Discrimination
  Discrimination
  Short-time Working Compensation Scheme
  Short-time Working Compensation Scheme
  Temporary Employment Subsidy
  Temporary Employment Subsidy
  South-West Region
  South-West Region
  Redundancies
  Redundancies
  DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS REVIEW BODY
  DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS REVIEW BODY
TRANSPORT
  National Bus Company
  National Bus Company
  Driving Tests
  Driving Tests
  Motorways (Durability Tests)
  Motorways (Durability Tests)
  Roads (White Paper)
  Roads (White Paper)
  Tachograph
  Tachograph
  ASLEF
  ASLEF
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  Concessionary Fares
  Concessionary Fares
  M180 (Humberside)
  M180 (Humberside)
  Roads (Expenditure)
  Roads (Expenditure)
  A27 (Chichester-Worthing)
  A27 (Chichester-Worthing)
  British Railways
  British Railways
  Port of London Authority
  Port of London Authority
  Railways (Electrification)
  Railways (Electrification)
  Evesham Bypass
  Evesham Bypass
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  A38 (Plymouth)
  A38 (Plymouth)
  Traffic Commissioners (Licensing System)
  Traffic Commissioners (Licensing System)
  Motorways (Lane Closures)
  Motorways (Lane Closures)
  Railway Line (Sheffield-Manchester)
  Railway Line (Sheffield-Manchester)
  Land Compensation Act 1973
  Land Compensation Act 1973
  Road Haulage Charges
  Road Haulage Charges
  Dangerous Substances (Carriage by Road)
  Dangerous Substances (Carriage by Road)
  Pollution (Lead in Petrol)
  Pollution (Lead in Petrol)
  Roads (White Paper)
  Roads (White Paper)
  Channel Tunnel
  Channel Tunnel
  Roads (Accidents)
  Roads (Accidents)
  Articulated Vehicles (Anti-jackknifing Device)
  Articulated Vehicles (Anti-jackknifing Device)
  British Railways (Investment Programme)
  British Railways (Investment Programme)
  North-West Region (Traffic Infrastructure)
  North-West Region (Traffic Infrastructure)
  Road Haulage Industry
  Road Haulage Industry
  European Community (Commissioner for Transport)
  European Community (Commissioner for Transport)
  Walsall-Rugeley Railway Line
  Walsall-Rugeley Railway Line
  M27 Motorway
  M27 Motorway
  A27 (Patching)
  A27 (Patching)
  Local and Trunk Roads
  Local and Trunk Roads
  Roads (Vehicle Damage)
  Roads (Vehicle Damage)
  Road Maintenance and Vehicle Design
  Road Maintenance and Vehicle Design
  Driving Tests
  Driving Tests
  Road Construction (Employment)
  Road Construction (Employment)
  Motor Bicycles
  Motor Bicycles
  Trunk Road Construction
  Trunk Road Construction
  Motor Cyclists
  Motor Cyclists
  Train Drivers (Tribunal Award)
  Train Drivers (Tribunal Award)
  Motor Cyclists
  Motor Cyclists
SCOTLAND
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  Roads (Maintenance Costs)
  Hill Farming
  Hill Farming
  Scottish Development Agency
  Scottish Development Agency
  Junior Football Clubs (Financial Assistance)
  Junior Football Clubs (Financial Assistance)
  Kidney Donors
  Kidney Donors
  Health Education
  Health Education
  Agricultural Land
  Agricultural Land
  Prisons
  Prisons
  Quangos
  Quangos
  Education Authorities (Capital Expenditure Allowances)
  Education Authorities (Capital Expenditure Allowances)
  Woodland
  Woodland
  Peterhead Prison
  Peterhead Prison
  Prestwick Airport (Incident)
  Prestwick Airport (Incident)
  Area Health Boards
  Area Health Boards
  Fishing Vessels
  Fishing Vessels
  Local Authorities (Rate Poundage)
  Local Authorities (Rate Poundage)
  Local Authorities (Revenue Account Surpluses)
  Local Authorities (Revenue Account Surpluses)
  White Fish Authority (Funds)
  White Fish Authority (Funds)
  Advance Factories
  Advance Factories
  Local Authorities (Housing)
  Local Authorities (Housing)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Quangos (Members' Expenses)
  Quangos (Members' Expenses)
  Economic Variables
  Economic Variables
  Companies (Taxes and National Insurance)
  Companies (Taxes and National Insurance)
  M1 and M3
  M1 and M3
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Finance Bill (Government Amendments)
  Finance Bill (Government Amendments)
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  European Community Assistance
  European Community Assistance
  Taxation (Works of Art)
  Taxation (Works of Art)
  European Community (Budget Council)
  European Community (Budget Council)
  European Community (Ministerial Discussions)
  European Community (Ministerial Discussions)
  Luncheon Vouchers
  Luncheon Vouchers
ENVIRONMENT
  Roads (Repair and Maintenance)
  Roads (Repair and Maintenance)
  Rate Support Grant Needs Element (Kent)
  Rate Support Grant Needs Element (Kent)
  Brigg and Scunthorpe
  Brigg and Scunthorpe
  Local Government Finance
  Local Government Finance
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Water and Sewerage Services (Stores)
  Water and Sewerage Services (Stores)
  Artificial Reproduction of Animals (Fees)
  Artificial Reproduction of Animals (Fees)
  Rent Order 1978
  Rent Order 1978
  European Community
  European Community
  Rents
  Rents
  Homosexuality
  Homosexuality
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Rape and Mugging Offences
  Rape and Mugging Offences
  Mr. Martin Brown
  Mr. Martin Brown
  Dumping at Sea Act
  Dumping at Sea Act
  Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act
  Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act
  Work Permit Holders
  Work Permit Holders
  Elections (Parliamentary and Assembly)
  Elections (Parliamentary and Assembly)
  Electoral Deposit
  Electoral Deposit
  Maintenance Payments
  Maintenance Payments
  Nana Mouskouri
  Nana Mouskouri
  Firearms Certificate
  Firearms Certificate
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Quangos (Members' Allowances)
  Diana Irons
  Diana Irons
  Cannabis
  Cannabis

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford.

LORD FLOWERS
Sir Brian Hilton Flowers, Knight, having been created Baron Flowers, of Queen's Gate in the City of Westminster, for life Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Annan and the Baroness Birk.

DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION SCHEME
2.48 p.m.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now in a position to announce details of the decision reached by the Association of European Airlines on the introduction of a common Denied Boarding Compensation scheme throughout Europe covering inward and outward flights: and whether they will make a Statement.
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, the European Directors-General of Civil Aviation met on 22nd March, when they considered the Association's scheme and agreed upon recommendations to members States. In the light of these recommendations the Civil Aviation Authority is considering the scheme which was filed with them on 16th March by British Airways. There will be no undue delay in the Authority's consideration of the scheme, but the establishment of this more widely based scheme will also depend upon the actions of other Governments or their agencies. Details of the scheme will be announced in due course.
1580
I am pleased to be able to add that it has just been announced by British Airways that they understand the scheme has been approved in Austria, West Germany, France, Belgium and Switzerland, and that those countries hope to operate it as from early in April.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I greatly regret that the Civil Aviation Authority has still to deliberate upon this scheme? Is he also aware that air travellers will welcome the fact that the Governments of the five countries named have accepted the scheme, and that British Airways will operate the current scheme with those five countries as from 1st April? Can my noble friend say whether, if it should be necessary to put down another Question and whichever Government are in power, we may perhaps hope for more countries to have acceded to the scheme?
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, the matter is not of great urgency so far as the United Kingdom is concerned. The recommendation of the Director-General of European Aviation Authorities was that the member States should put into operation a scheme which was at least as good as the Association's scheme. We already have a better scheme, so we are already complying with the recommendation. It might be advisable at some later stage to put down a Question because, although five countries have indicated that they will approve the scheme, there are 13 other countries in the Association whose views we do not yet know.

INFLATION AND MILITARY EXPENDITURE
2.51 p.m.
Lord NOEL-BAKER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will appoint a Royal Commission to study and report on the causes of world inflation, and to assess the extent to which the "unproductive" expenditure by all

1581
Governments on armaments and armed forces has been the principal cause.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Lord McCluskey): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government do not consider that a Royal Commission in the United Kingdom would be the appropriate forum in which to examine an international issue of this sort. Such a study would be more appropriate to international bodies such as the OECD, IMF and EEC. Inflation is a complex phenomenon, but there is no evident correlation between arms expenditure as a proportion of GNP and the rate of inflation.
Lord NOEL-BAKER: My Lords, do the Government realise that 70 million to 80 million men in the armed forces and arms factories of the world produce no usable or purchasable form of wealth; that they receive a colossal revenue of purchasing power—£200,000 million a year—which means that too much money is chasing too few goods (the economists' definition of inflation); and that this huge unproductive military expenditure creates far greater inflationary pressures than the wage claims of low-paid workers?
Lord McCLUSKEY: As I have already indicated, my Lords, these are very complex matters, but I would say to my noble friend that wealth is not the only consideration; those who spend money on defence or arms generally, including ourselves, will have regard to other matters, such as security.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, while this problem is complex, may I ask my noble and learned friend whether that fact does not present a greater need for some kind of international research investigation of the problem? When the world is spending such enormous sums on armaments, which have no monetary return except for the export trade, is it not clear that that is inevitably and obviously a cause of inflation in the world?
Lord McCLUSKEY: My Lords, I cannot say it is necessarily and obviously a cause of inflation. Arms expenditure may be inflationary if it is not financed in a non-inflationary way, but that is true of any item of Government expenditure. I can only repeat that wealth is not the
1582
only consideration and that in the light of its circumstances each country must endeavour to make up its own mind on the proportion of its expenditure that should go on arms. In relation to initiatives by this Government, as your Lordships will be aware from attending the debate in this House on 21st February, this Government have taken many initiatives at the United Nations.
Lord NOEL-BAKER: My Lords, will the Government propose to the United Nations that they should make a high-powered study of the causation of inflation, which has created such chaos in the whole economic system of the world?
Lord McCLUSKEY: My Lords, I do not think the Government will make any such proposal to the United Nations, because it is not thought that the United Nations is the body best equipped to make that kind of economic study. Studies of world inflation, which of course include regard to arms expenditure, are made from time to time by the bodies I have mentioned, particularly by the OECD, and indeed the matter to which my noble friend refers is always on the agenda of both the United Nations and this Government.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, would my noble and learned friend agree in regard to the approach of my noble friend, whose work on disarmament I salute, that it is a snare and delusion to propose a Royal Commission, because we have the facts? The World Bank and many institutions have the facts.
Lord McCLUSKEY: I am happy to agree with the general thrust of that, my Lords. If the result of such a study were to demonstrate a link between this kind of expenditure and inflation, I do not suppose your Lordships would imagine that that would inhibit countries from spending money on arms.

BILL OF RIGHTS AND EUROPEAN CONVENTION
2.55 p.m.
Lord WADE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of a decision of the House on the 29th November 1978, carried by 56 votes to 30, urging Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill of Rights to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights into the domestic law of the United Kingdom in the form recommended by the majority of the Select Committee, what steps they have taken to implement that decision.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and I, while recognising the importance of this matter and giving due weight to the view expressed by this House at the end of the debate last November, remain of the opinion that there is not at present sufficient agreement to justify taking a step of such major constitutional significance. That being so, it would not be right for the Government now to seek by legislation to incorporate the European Convention into our law, since we do not ourselves consider that the case for this has been made out.
Lord WADE: My Lords, while thanking him for his reply, may I ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack to be a little more forthcoming? While I recognise that the Government have had many other problems to face, is it not a fact that four months have elapsed since a decision of this House in favour of a Bill of Rights on the lines indicated in my Question? Am I to understand that Her Majesty's Government have decided definitely in principle against a Bill of Rights of this nature and, if so, have they any alternative to propose?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, certainly the Government have not decided in principle against the proposal, which is obviously a matter of very great importance in view of the general concern about the maintenance of individual liberties, but we do not detect any movement of opinion in favour of this particular claim to strengthen the rights of the individual. But of course we are prepared to see how opinion develops in this field, and in the meantime I congratulate the
1584
noble Lord on his pertinacity in pursuing his own particular approach to this matter.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, would my noble and learned friend agree that as there will be an election in six months' time—
A noble Lord: Says you!
Lord WYNNE-JONES:—it would be highly desirable that the Government should use the intervening period to introduce such a desirable Bill?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, while noting with interest the forecast of my noble friend of future events, I prefer to follow the advice of a great American who said it is always dangerous to prophesy, especially about future events, so I cannot pursue him in that direction. There was clearly a division of opinion in your Lordships' House when we last debated this matter; it was not quite as equally or nearly equally balanced as it was among those who took part in the Select Committee. There has been no significant change of opinion in regard to this matter and therefore I do not think it right that the present Government—who, as I say, are not convinced that this is a useful measure for the protection of individual liberty—should promise legislation at this stage.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware that we on the committee asked for the incorporation of the European Convention into our law? Surely it is ludicrous that our lawyers should have to engage in a shuttle service between here and Strasbourg in order to deal with our own legal cases.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the Government have allowed the right of individual petition to the European Court of Human Rights, and those who are not satisfied with the provisions in our own law are entitled so to petition; and that arrangement will of course continue. The difficulty is that the language of the convention itself is in such broad and generalised terms that it does not fit into our concept of what statute law ought to be. If it were incorporated into our law it would be liable to create both considerable disappointment and a great deal of

1585
litigation; and, curiously enough, as a lawyer I do not encourage the proliferation of litigation.
Viscount BARRINGTON: My Lords, with great respect to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and the words that he used, is this not less a question of strengthening the rights of the individual than of preserving the rights of the individual?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think that that is the hope underlying the measure, but in my view the rights of the individual in this country are as well protected as they are in any other country in the world. I hear doubting noises behind me, but I say that after some experience in various other parts of the world as well as in this country. Of course one must be constantly watchful, and I do not exclude the possibility of some measure of agreement internationally, and particularly within Europe itself, on lines which would be more suitable for incorporation into our law than is the European Convention.
Lord REDCLIFFE-MAUD: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack consider that the court at Strasbourg is more competent than our own courts to adjudicate on the matters which we have agreed shall go to Strasbourg? Secondly, does he also agree that if we incorporated the convention into our domestic law, the individual citizen could not be worse off, and might even be better off in consequence?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not for one moment question the high quality of the membership of the European Court. It contains some of the finest lawyers in Europe; of that there is no doubt. However, I repeat my concern that if the provisions of the convention, with its broad and general statements of principle, were embodied in our law, much confusion and difficulty would result, and I maintain that on matters of substance the individual is protected. If there is evidence of an area where there is inadequate protection, Parliament should legislate forthwith to deal with that.
Lord PLANT: My Lords, does my noble and learned friend agree that the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish
1586
TUC has constantly pressed for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, and that the Standing Advisory Committee on Human Rights in Northern Ireland has repeatedly refrained from that course and has recommended that there should be a Bill of Rights for the whole of the United Kingdom? Therefore, does my noble and learned friend agree that there is some pressure for this course of action, and that there is a majority of this House in favour of a Bill of Rights for the whole of the United Kingdom?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, it is quite true that the recommendation to which my noble friend refers has emerged from Northern Ireland; and I appreciate the value of the work carried out by my noble friend and his colleagues in that field. While there was a majority in this House of 56 votes to 30, the debate itself showed a division of opinion right across parties. I recall, for instance, a distinguished speech from one of the occupants of the Opposition Front Bench, and there were other differing views right across parties on this very difficult issue. There are no easy answers to the difficulties that have to be faced, but I still consider that it would be unwise to proceed down the road suggested without the matter first receiving a greater measure of public support and acceptance than it has at present.

THE FOOTWEAR INDUSTRY
3.6 p.m.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the growing complaints against the shoddiness of footwear in this country, particularly in the case of children's shoes; and, if so, what efforts are being made to recapture the place in the boot and shoe industry that British craftsmen once held.
Lord LEONARD: My Lords, there has been an increasing level of complaints about footwear in recent years. During the first three-quarters of 1978 complaints reported to the Office of Fair Trading by

1587
Trading Standards Offices, Citizens Advice Bureaux and Consumer Advice Centres totalled 24,186, of which 3,805 related to children's footwear. I do not wish to minimise this situation, but I should like to keep it in perspective to the extent that the total number of complaints represented ·02 per cent. of sales in the period referred to. This is a factor which must be taken into account.
With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's Question, in April 1978 the Government introduced a scheme of assistance for the footwear manufacturing industry under the 1972 Industry Act, totalling £4·5 million. This is aimed at improving all aspects of the performance of the United Kingdom footwear manufacturing industry.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, and I am delighted to hear that our British craftsmen are to receive assistance towards retaining their craft and employment. Has my noble friend looked at the letter which I sent him from the Shoe and Allied Trades Research Association in Kettering (which is the foremost trade association in the world)? This avers that the level of wear and tear of imported shoes is half that of shoes made in Britain. Finally, will the Government—or ultimately any future Government—introduce a code of practice for the examination of shoes that are imported into this country? I ask this because in the two years from 1975 to 1977 there was a 25 per cent. increase in complaints about imported shoes, as well as an increase in price of 30 per cent.
Lord LEONARD: That information is very disturbing, my Lords, and I take it very much to heart. Some importers in this country have their own facilities for testing; and, as I stated in my original reply, the number of complaints represents a very small percentage of total sales. I appreciate that standards must be raised, and I hope that my noble friend will agree that the provision of £4·5 million to the industry should be of great assistance. I hope it is the wish of Members of your Lordships' House that the manufacturers in the boot and shoe industry should take very much to heart the opening lines of a well-known song and abhor the closing lines of it.
Lord DERWENT: My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that many imported shoes are perfectly all right so long as one does not walk on wet grass?
Viscount ECCLES: My Lords, does the Minister also take into account craftsmen in the bespoke shoemaking trade? Surely in that trade, as in the binding and repairing of leather-bound books, the shortage of craftsmen is now becoming acute. Is this not due to the fact that a boy or girl leaving school must wait three or four years before becoming an expert craftsman? During that period the young person cannot earn enough money, before later becoming an expert and earning a good living. Will the Government look a little more into this problem of the period of apprenticeship?
Lord LEONARD: My Lords, all I can say on that point is that the Government set up the Footwear Industry Study Steering Group, which was established to consider ways of improving the efficiency and the international competitiveness of the industry, and its continuing viability. This group presented its report to the Secretary of State for Industry; and I feel that we are progressing in the introduction of schemes through which young people can be brought into the industry and turned into excellent craftsmen.
Baroness FAITHFULL: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the peculiar shape of a proportion of children's shoes leads to malformation of the feet; and do the importers and our own manufacturers take note of what the orthopaedic surgeons advise?
Lord LEONARD: My Lords, I take the point of the noble Baroness, but we have to realise—and noble Lords on the opposite Benches more than most, probably, will accept this—that competitiveness is the key to successful selling, and if you cannot produce something which is successful you will not sell it for very long, if at all.

INDUSTRIAL INNOVATION: ACARD REPORT
3.12 p.m.
Lord GREGSON Lord GREGSON rose to call attention to the report of the Advisory Council on

1589
Applied Research and Development (ACARD) on industrial innovation; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords when I placed this Motion on the Order Paper for today, little did I realise the competition for attention that we would have from another place. Nevertheless, I believe that the ACARD report on industrial innovation is a very important and timely contribution to the solution of the fundamental problems which are facing this country; and I pay tribute to the advisory council and their chairman, my noble friend the Leader of the House, for their foresight in setting up the sub-committee to produce this excellent, wide-ranging and penetrating report. In fact, I might say that I had some considerable difficulty in applying any critical approach to it at all.
Before I comment on the report I think I should, in opening this debate, set the scene on a wider front and outline some of the problems that make this report so important and apposite. There can be no doubt of the universal necessity for the industry of the developed countries of the Western World to keep ahead of their competitors with tomorrow's technology, and this becomes more essential and urgent when we recognise the speed with which the leading developing countries, like Korea, Taiwan, Brazil, et cetera, are adopting today's technology and are forcing the developed countries out of their traditional markets. It must also be recognised that there is no market whatsoever, at any time, for yesterday's technology, and I hope that this debate will do something to ensure that industry in the United Kingdom shall not be left stranded on the dried up sandbank of yesterday's technology.
Coming nearer to hand, my Lords, the EEC Commission in Brussels has for some time recognised the constant problems that exist for its member countries to stay in the market-place. In January 1977 the Commission asked Dr. Brunner to act as chef de file for a discussion in the area of industrial innovation; and I should like to quote from the preamble to the first discussion document:
"The problem of innovation for the Community arises from certain very bleak trends, both world-wide and internal. On the one hand, the Community is deficient in raw materials, especially oil and, if not in food, fertilisers. Indeed, not even
1590
the world as a whole, however organised, can continue to expand its consumption of scarce raw materials and energy indefinitely. Moreover, previously under-developed countries with considerable reserves of cheap and intelligent labour and of raw materials are beginning to make more complex and technical products and services for themselves and for us. So the Community will rapidly be compelled to offer different services and products for export—in competition with other, technologically advanced societies—to pay for what it needs. But it will have to achieve this while keeping strategic industries and activities viable at home and as competitive as possible abroad. At the same time, the expectations of our already wealthy European society are continuing to increase against a background of economic growth which will certainly remain low for some considerable time.
"All in all, Europe and the European Community cannot settle comfortably into their own chosen rhythm or pattern of innovation; and it is a public and community interest to encourage particularly innovations which permit people to live better without thereby consuming more scarce raw materials or energy. A high level of innovation is required, but under precisely the economic conditions which make it most difficult to achieve: because of the risks associated with innovation investment and because of public attitudes and problems of confidence, particularly in a period of greatly reduced economic circumstances".
If we examine the position of the United Kingdom in the light of that statement, we see the problem being both more severe and of much longer standing. It is now universally recognised that for at least the past two decades the wealth-producing manufacturing industry in this country has been shrinking relative to other activity. Whether this is measured by relative employment, export performance or import penetration, they all tell the same story. Between 1970 and 1976, while total employment in the United Kingdom increased, employment in manufacturing industry declined by over 1 million people; and between 1960 and 1977 the United Kingdom manufacturing industry saw a reduction in its world trade position, falling from over 16 per cent. in 1960 to just above 9 per cent. in 1977. It is the same with import penetration: in 1970, manufacturing exports exceeded imports by roughly £6 billion at 1977 prices; today, that figure is approximately £1 billion, and there is every expectation that it will be zero by 1980.
That decline in manufacturing performance was, in the main, in private manufacturing industry, and it has been shown to have been relatively unaffected by the political persuasions of the Government of the day. That is a sombre picture,

1591
indeed, my Lords, but it is one which is almost completely masked by the recent exploitation of our liquid hydro-carbon resources; and this is a very dangerous illusion, since these resources are available for only a comparatively short term. I hope that we shall learn from the problems facing the Dutch following the peak-out of their North Sea gas. There is no quick, easy solution to our problems, and the industrial strategy aimed at regeneration of the manufacturing industry being pursued by the Government, particularly through the sector working parties, seems the only solution. I believe this report to be an important contribution.
Now, my Lords, turning to the report, there is a good deal of emphasis within the report, and rightly so, on the urgent attention that is required to the question of the small company. I know that the Government are giving a good deal of their attention to this problem. Also, since the ACARD Report was published, a recent report of the committee chaired by my right honourable friend Sir Harold Wilson on the financing of small firms has been published. I think that these two reports should be looked at very carefully in parallel. As I have said, I think that the small company sector is important, but I also think that we must remember that if we accept the Bolton Committee definition of small companies, they represent less than 25 per cent. of manufacturing industry in this country. I should like, therefore, to concentrate my comments on the report to the other 75 per cent., recognising that within that 75 per cent. the great majority of British industry is in the medium-sized companies; and these, I believe, require some attention.
My Lords, before doing so, there is one area that was not covered by the Wilson Committee; that is taxation. I believe that this was outside its terms of reference but I have no doubt whatsoever that later in the debate we shall hear this question raised. But I would ask the Government to look carefully at paragraph 4.4 of the ACARD Report. This deals with taxation problems of short-term losses and possible failures. It is important, I think, to remember when attempting the exploitation of innovation that there are many obstacles in the path.
1592
I think it is a touch of sadism to penalise in retrospect those that stumble on the way. With regard to the medium and larger companies in the manufacturing sector, I think the report clearly brings out that our real weakness is not in the field of discovery and invention but in exploitation, which is a complex, step-by-step process which encompasses a wide span of activity from research to marketing.
The report makes many recommendations for assistance in various areas by the Government and their agencies, the majority of which I support. But it is well to remember that manufacturing industry in this country is largely in the private sector. I think that the committee could have spent some time in dealing more fully with some of the questions that are posed regarding industry itself in paragraph 1.2 of its introduction instead of passing them over for wider consideration in the NEDC and the sector working parties.
I would particularly recommend that further consideration should be given to at least three of these problems since I believe they could lie at the root of our malaise. Firstly, there is the problem of the concentration of British management on short-term returns being out of phase with the longer-term requirements of modern technology. This is particularly so with companies quoted on the Stock Exchange who are expected to demonstrate an improved performance in profits at least on a six-monthly basis. I think that there is room here for some serious consideration by the institutional shareholders who now dominate the equity scene, and I would hope that the Wilson Committee in its final report will give some consideration to this.
The second problem which is stated concerns the lack of trained engineers and designers. I would extend this from my own experience to include all technologists. This is an acute and serious problem which is acting as a major constraint on the expansion of industry in this country. It is not only a problem in the United Kingdom but (as we have recently seen from the many reports) it is also occurring on the much wider international scene. I hope that the Finniston Committee which is due to report shortly

1593
may provide a basis for a proper consideration of this serious problem.
The third problem concerns the structure and organisation of the majority of British industry and a lack of technical competence in the boardrooms. This has been raised on many occasions by my noble friend Lord Brown and has recently been the subject of a very detailed report to the NEDC by Mr. K. G. Corfield. I understand that this report has now been made generally available and I would hope that British industry would take a long hard look at this problem. Despite my few comments, this is a most excellent and timely report. I hope the Government will receive it with enthusiasm and that the report will be widely read throughout the country. If I might say so, if necessity is the mother of invention, I would hope that dire necessity would give rise to "invention squared". My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.27 p.m.
Lord CARR of HADLEY: My Lords, I am sure that you would wish me first to thank the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, for raising this subject today. There can be no doubt that to increase the rate of industrial innovation in Britain is of absolutely crucial importance to our future strength and prosperity. It is, therefore, a most important subject. May I also say how much we look forward to the maiden speeches later in the debate from the noble Lord, Lord Schon, and the noble Lord, Lord Rugby. I can assure them in advance that they will not find the experience as intimidating as they perhaps might feel it to be at the moment. We look forward to what they have to say to us.
The noble Lord, Lord Gregson, set the scene and, if I may, I want to concentrate more closely on the actual report to which he drew attention. I am afraid I did not find it quite so difficult to criticise as he did. I read the report with great interest but, I am bound to say, with some bewilderment—and I was almost going to say "with some dismay". In the main text of the report, the working party seem to me to put their fingers on what are the most fundamental issues; and with their analysis I find myself in a large measure of agreement. I think it is important and I think it is essentially right.
1594
However, the recommendations summarised in pages 7 to 10 (the first chapter after the foreword) strike me as strange and, in total, extremely disappointing and inadequate. They do not match up in substance to the terms of reference that the working party were given; they do not match up to the real problems of some companies and the need to create a thriving small business sector, both of which are, rightly, so strongly stressed in the foreword of the report. Moreover, their recommendations in total do not get to grips with the fundamental issues which the working party themselves perceive and define so clearly. The recommendations in total are too timid, they are far too much concerned with tinkering with the mechanisms of a governmental or of a semi-governmental kind rather than dealing with what is required to bring about the fundamental change in our economic and industrial environment, which is what is needed and which they themselves diagnose as being needed.
In the nature of their content, the recommendations seem to be far more concerned with what can be done to ameliorate the effects of the present unsatisfactory economic environment than with what needs to be done actually to change this environment and to create a good growing climate for innovation in general and for innovative small firms in particular. In this, I repeat, the recommendations fail to reflect properly what appear to be the working party's own basic convictions and analysis.
If I may, I should like to try to illustrate what I see to be this basic dichotomy between the report's findings and the recommendations which are made. For example, I strongly agree with the analysis contained in paragraph 1.2 on pages 11 and 12 of the main reasons for the absence of an adequate level of industrial innovation in Britain. Perhaps I may read them to your Lordships. This is the analysis:
"constant changes to the economic environment, discouraging longer-term planning; the lack of incentives for managers and entrepreneurs; the increasing burden of legislation; overmanning dictated by trade union pressure; falling industrial profitability; the concentration of British management on short-term returns"—
that is a point mentioned by the noble Lord—
"the lack of adequately trained engineers and designers and an unwillingness of good graduates

1595
to enter manufacturing industry; a degree of technological ignorance in board rooms".
Your Lordships will recognise almost all of these points as ones which we have discussed in the series of fundamental industrial debates which we have had in this House over the past two years. The series started with the debate which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, in February 1977, about the need to increase the esteem in which industry is held in our society. Then there was a debate raised by my noble friend Lord Trenchard, in April 1978, about the need to reform our system of collective bargaining. There was a debate raised last June by the noble Lord, Lord Baker, about the need to increase the intake into industry of more and better trained engineers and to give much more importance to the engineering function. There was a debate last July initiated by the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, about productivity. There was a debate last December raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Rochdale, about the opportunity which industry should offer to attract more of our best young people into industrial employment. Then again, there was a debate raised by my noble friend Lord Trenchard earlier this year on some of the obstacles to growth caused by the long-term by-products of repeated imposed incomes policies.
In all these debates we in this House did, in a fairly fundamental way, go into the diagnosis of issues which I have just read from this report. The working party themselves do not go into them at all, or scarcely at all. All they say—and I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, criticise this—in paragraph 1.3 on page 12 is this:
"These problems are essentially for wider consideration within the NEDC and Sector Working Parties".
Frankly, this is nonsense. Even if the criticisms which the working party make of the membership of the NEDC, of the sector working parties and of the content of their proceedings were put right, these bodies, by their very nature, are concerned with and biased towards improving the status quo—which is very important—rather than towards creating the conditions for the birth of new businesses.
I say this as someone who does not in any way underrate the importance of
1596
NEDC and sector working parties. I believe in their value; I believe that they can make a significant and growing contribution to the smooth and existing working of our existing industrial economy; but to regard them as potential instruments for creating the conditions for technological innovation and for encouraging the birth of new companies, seems to me to be fanciful beyond the bounds of credulity. If we wait on the NEDC machinery for the basic changes identified as being required in paragraph 1.2 of the report, we shall wait forever. These bodies are not and cannot be the engines for innovation. Most of these necessary changes are matters for direct responsibility and initiative by Ministers. Any set of recommendations made to Ministers about what is needed to stimulate innovation should contain proposals, which this report does not do, aimed directly at this diagnosis of what is needed.
A similar gap seems to appear between diagnosis and prescription if one turns to Chapter 4 of the report dealing with the vital role of new companies in promoting economic growth and the development of new industries. At paragraph 4.2 on page 23, one sees a list of the factors which have been found in the United States of America to be particularly favourable to the development of new technology-based firms. Here are some of the factors identified:
"the availability of private wealth as a source of capital for start up of new ventures; a fiscal framework which encourages flow of private risk capital into new ventures; an attitude in society which encourages entrepreneurship; mobility of individuals between academic institutions and private industry … an active Government expenditure programme in high technology areas willing to provide opportunities for new companies".
If that is the diagnosis of what is found to be favourable in another country, where in this report are the recommendations to create those conditions? What does the working party say? In paragraph 4.3 on page 24, which immediately follows that diagnosis, they say as follows:
"But perhaps the most consistent advice we have had is that the existing tax arrangements do not allow of sufficient reward for successful investment compared with the very real risk of failure attendant on new technological enterprises. This applies both to the innovator himself, and any sources of private wealth which might consider backing him. We regard this as fundamental and of general application…".

1597
So do I, my Lords. I believe the working party are absolutely right. But what do they say in the next paragraph? I quote:
"…we do believe that it is easily feasible to make some relatively small changes to the tax system…".
The relatively small changes that are recommended in this report may be marginally helpful; but why not big changes? It is certainly big, major, fundamental changes which are needed in our tax system in other ways if we are going to attack the failings and causes of our lack of innovation, which they analyse on page 11, and bring in the factors favourable to innovation which they found to exist and to be potent, for example, in the United States. Big changes are needed. All I can say is that I hope it will not be many months or weeks before we have a new Government which will make the changes.
The need for such big changes is clearly spelled out by the working party itself in various parts of this report in addition to those which I have already quoted. I will not take up the time of the House by quoting too many of them, but I will quote just one further passage from page 35 of the report, which is this:
"… the great success of small companies in starting new things of initially modest size, their ability to create new jobs quickly; the ability of the most successful to grow into new sizeable companies; their importance to large companies as suppliers and customers—all this justifies the creation of a business environment that helps them, indeed encourages the formation of many more than are needed, since very many will fail".
I could not agree more. But which of these recommendations really meets that need to create that kind of business environment? I repeat that this working party analyses the problem with great clarity and force, but then runs away, in my view, when it comes to making recommendations, from the direction to which its own conclusions point it. If one looks at paragraph 4.12 on page 26 the working party quotes with apparent approval an extract from the Bolton Report on small firms which the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, mentioned. This quotation stresses the great store which the sort of people who start small firms set on economic independence; and I believe they are right. But this simply does not square with the working party's own recommendations, which call for more Government subsidies, more discretionary
1598
help from Government Departments, administered discretionally by civil servants and a greater role for various QUANGO-type organisations. It simply does not square with what they themselves say is a characteristic of the sort of people we are talking about; namely, the desire for economic independence.
There is certainly a dichotomy between analysis and prescription here, and it is even further emphasised elsewhere. For example, in paragraph 4.6 the working party point out that:
"Without a sizeable class of wealthy individual patrons, small businesses in Britain have to rely on institutional finance".
Yet in other parts of the report they point out the very real difficulties connected with institutional finance meeting the sort of innovatory development for new technology-based firms on a sufficiently large and adventurous scale. It is in the nature of institutions to find it difficult to do that on a sufficiently large scale.
What then does the report recommend to make the new small technology-based firms less dependent on institutional finance? The answer is precisely nothing. Paragraph 4.9 points out the virtue for new technology-based firms in generating a large number of decision points. I agree; but the recommendations would give extra power and extra money to the existing relatively small number of decision points in Government Departments and in Government-linked organisations—again, contrary in prescription to their own diagnosis.
Paragraph 4.11 points out the need to exempt small firms from as much company legislation as possible, and yet the only suggestion for exemption is from industrial regional policy. I do not disagree with that, but I cannot believe, from the way they conduct their analysis, that the working party really believe that that is the only exemption that is necessary. Why then did they not carry through their analysis and make recommendations on the sort of exemptions which really are required?
At the top of page 34 the report says that inflation is a major enemy of innovation, yet the vital importance of inflation is not even mentioned by the working party in its exhortatory opening paragraphs addressed to the Government at

1599
the beginning of their chapter on recommendations. On that same page, page 34, it is also pointed out, rightly, that another enemy of innovation may be local taxation policy and it goes on to indicate what is meant by that. Yet again the recommendations contain no reference to this important matter, let alone any positive suggestions.
It seems to me that another extraordinary gap in the report is the failure to draw attention to the great advantage which Britain could obtain from membership of the European Community. In various places the report points out the great advantage which innovators in the United States have derived over a time from their large domestic market, and on page 28 the working party points out in contrast the limitation which innovators in Britain suffer in comparison because the British market is not more than 3 per cent. to 8 per cent. of the world market for most products of significant technological content. But our domestic market is now potentially the whole European market. It is no longer inferior in size to the American market. Surely in economic and industrial terms, this is what joining the European Community was all about; yet there is no mention in this report of the enormous potential advantage to be gained from this.
In summary, the report analyses accurately and fundamentally the obstacles to industrial innovation in an economy such as ours which at present is characterised by a high wall of taxation, a low level of productivity and in which finance for investment is being increasingly channelled into the hands of Government and into the hands of a relatively small number of institutions. However, having made this analysis which points directly and urgently to the need for radical change, the report's recommendations only tinker with the problems. They attempt to attack the "measle spots", but not the disease itself.
If we are to have in Britain a new burst of industrial innovation we must alter these basic characteristics in our economy. There is no other way; and until some Government in this country realises that and sets about doing it we shall not get the innovation. So my advice to this Government and to the next one is to take very seriously indeed the first-class
1600
analysis of the problem contained in the text of this report and to draw the obvious conclusions from it, but to realise that the recommendations do not match that analysis and are totally inadequate. The report will have done great good in bringing together the analysis, if only this Government and the next one will address themselves to the conclusions which flow from it.
3.48 p.m.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, may I say that I thought the noble Lord, Lord Carr, made a niggardly speech, nit-picking all the way. He saved himself at the end when he admitted that this was a fine analysis. One cannot expect in a report of this kind to deal with all the ills of our society whether in this country or in Western Europe. I hope that we shall lift up this debate to another dimension. I thought it was a petty approach, and I am rather surprised at the noble Lord. It is not a party matter but he even tried to inject partisanship into this. I think it was a bad approach and that he will regret his speech when he reads it carefully.
I welcome this opportunity to debate this second report from the Advisory Council for Applied Research and Development, both because it enables me to say something about the work of the council, and because of the important part successful innovation must play if we are to have any sort of an industrial future. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, who takes such an interest in these matters, for arranging for this debate. He has a distinguished record in this field.
The Advisory Council for Applied Research and Development was set up some two years ago, and is now just getting into its stride. Noble Lords will remember its report last year on developments in the micro-electronics field, which received so much attention and which was followed by Government action and programmes covering most of its recommendations. This latest report on industrial innovation continues the series. Work is now under way in the council on a number of important topics, ranging from techniques of jointing and assembly to bioengineering. The social implications of advanced technology are also

1601
receiving special attention. As chairman of the council, I have watched over these developments with, I must confess, a degree of fatherly pride, and it gives me pleasure this afternoon to be able to pay public tribute to the work of the council. I am sure that its future endeavours will be up to the high standard of the two reports that it has produced so far.
Much has been written, particularly in recent years, about British industrial performance, and it has been the subject of some of our debates in this House. The noble Lord was quite right when he mentioned the number of debates that we have had over a short period of time, and how this House has played a very important part in discussing and suggesting solutions to many of the ills which beset our own economy here. But I must say this. The report that we are considering today seems to succeed in bringing together many of the arguments in an interesting and novel way, while remaining refreshingly concise. I was pleased to see that the publication of this report has been widely welcomed as contributing authoritatively to the debate, and I expect further stimulating and informed comment this afternoon. Perhaps I might mention that I found one of the annexes especially helpful. This sets out the various ways in which innovation can take place in industry, and the particular factors surrounding each of them. I suspect that others, too, will find this a useful source of reference when we are discussing such matters.
The main message of this ACARD report is simple: that the industrial process does not consist of a number of individual parts among which we can select to concentrate our efforts. Rather it must be looked at as a complete system, each part interacting with the other so that success in one area, however great, can be completely nullified if some other area is neglected. Perhaps I could sum up this approach by the old proverb, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link". The report deploys the argument that we have been concentrating on the "glamorous" links, such as research and development, and finance, and neglecting more workaday matters, such as detailed design control, material standards and production engineering. Putting aside my council hat and donning
1602
that of a member of the Government, I should like to say that we welcome this report and its sound philosophy that—to use its own words,
"Industrial innovation needs to reflect 'demand pull' rather than only technology push'."
It is indeed true that many of the measures taken in the past to encourage innovation have aimed at improving and increasing research and development facilities and effort, but there is now a wider recognition of the need to encourage conditions within which the fruits of research and development can be pulled into the industrial process and exploited in world markets.
The main emphasis in the report, on the need to repair these past defects and for a major shift of resources towards production and manufacturing technology, lies at the very heart of the Government's industrial strategy, and it has been encouraging to have such valuable support for the initiatives which the Government are taking. For instance, some two years ago the Department of Industry Manufacturing Advisory Service was introduced to provide assistance to firms on many aspects of production technology and organisation. It has done a good job, and we want to continue and expand its operations as the advisory council has suggested in this report.
The microelectronics applications programme, now just getting under way, will have an important function in improving methods and processes, as well as in influencing product design. And through the continuing product and process development scheme, together with special programmes such as that to improve foundries, the Government are making help available to upgrade production facilities. Additionally, the extra funds now made available to the Science Research Council will enable it to continue its initiatives in support of engineering services and in fostering closer university/ industry relationships.
As well as identifying some of the weak links, the council has made a series of recommendations aimed at improving the mechanisms of communication, both within Government and in industry, in order to discourage the individual elements from going their own separate ways. These touch on a major area of work of the sector working parties, and the report

1603
of the advisory council will be brought to their attention. But the council also commented on some organisational arrangements within the Department of Industry, and I am glad to be able to say that changes of the kind recommended are already in hand within the Department.
I was particularly pleased with the emphasis which the council has placed in this report on small firms, and the contribution they could make. The importance of small firms in the economy has, of course, just been underlined by the interim report of the Wilson Committee, which the Government are now studying with great care. But in the same way that I hope that those of your Lordships with experience in the financial sector will be contributing to our debate today, it is important that there should be a technological input from those with a technological background to the discussion on the Wilson Committee's recommendations. In particular, the advisory council thought that Mr. Kingston's views had much merit, although they did not, I think, significantly influence the Wilson Committee. Mr. Kingston's paper to that committee has, however, been reproduced in full as an annex to the advisory council's report. I shall wait with great interest to hear the views of noble Lords on this matter, since the problem of finance for small firms—particularly risk finance—is a complicated one.
Work is, of course, continuing on developing the Government's policy on small businesses, but, clearly, new technology-based companies have special difficulties which need particular consideration. It is an indication of the interesting way in which the council views the innovation process that it has devoted attention both to the role of small firms and to the influence of the economic environment on their development. These are rightly matters of concern to the council, since the flow of innovative technology through small firms is dependent on the ability of individuals to obtain risk capital and the encouragement they receive to do so.
As part of its consideration of these wider aspects, the council has made some interesting proposals for tax changes. These have been carefully examined, and,
1604
in view of related matters soon to be discussed in another place, I am sure that your Lordships will not expect me to expand further this afternoon. Nevertheless, in many areas of company taxation I think I should say that the arrangements in this country are among the most favourable by international standards.
I should like to mention the recommendation that the research associations should play a wider role in supporting their sponsoring industries. I am sure that the associations represent a much under-used asset, particularly by the smaller companies, and ways must be found of allowing them to make a greater contribution, and for their work to become more widely known. Discussions are now being actively pursued with the directors of the associations, and I am hopeful that these will lead to early results. Similarly, the Government have sympathy with the council's view that the trade associations can play a useful part in providing a channel for discussion of the technical and manufacturing aspects of the industrial strategy, and we shall be examining how this proposal can best be followed up.
However, although important, the individual recommendations of the report are not so significant as its overall message: that successful innovation involves the whole industrial process and that no individual element can be neglected. The Government clearly have an important role, in leading the debate, in giving greater encouragement and in creating the general conditions which foster enterprise and innovation. As one way of improving what I might call the psychological climate, the advisory council has suggested that there should be a second Royal award for innovation in manufacturing. This proposal will need further examination. We do not, for example, want to devalue the existing Queen's Award, and I should be very interested to hear the views of the House on this proposal.
May I stress that innovation, the industrial strategy and business organisation are not wholly matters for the Government. Indeed, the part played by Government is perhaps the minor one. The major parts are for companies, engineering institutions, trade associations, the great financial institutions in the City. All these are important, and the council

1605
comments on them in its report. I know that many of the noble Lords who wish to speak today have personal experience of many of these matters, and I look forward with interest to what they have to tell me about the advisory council's report. I hope that the report will be accepted and recognised as a document that will stimulate discussion, and that this will result in great benefit to the country.
Viscount TRENCHARD: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—
Lord PEART: My Lords, I have sat down. I am sorry.
Viscount TRENCHARD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord—
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, a maiden speech is to follow.
Viscount TRENCHARD: My Lords, I apologise. I had forgotten the maiden speech.
4.2 p.m.
Lord SCHON: My Lords, though I have been a member of this House for more than three years, I am addressing your Lordships for the first time. I crave indulgence and thank your Lordships in advance for your understanding of my inexperience. I should like to add my thanks to those which have already been expressed to the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, for initiating a debate on a subject which is of particular interest to me.
Your Lordships will be aware, from the few words I have spoken, that I was not born in this country. I was born in Vienna. When I was 19 years old, I got a job with a Central European chemical company which worked with a German concern—the first to develop synthetic detergents. I was based in Prague, then in Vienna, and then back again in Prague in 1937, from where I was lucky to be able to escape with my wife after Hitler marched in on 15th March. I arrived in the United Kingdom on 28th March 1939, exactly 40 years ago today.
Several noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord SCHON: My Lords, I owe a lot to this country which offered hospitality
1606
to us at the time when we needed it. With me, I brought knowledge of the earliest synthetic detergents. I became co-founder of a small company, starting in a most humble way. At the end of 1940, after having been bombed in London, we moved to Whitehaven, in Cumberland—a development area. As the leader of the team which we gradually assembled, I was able to make my contribution to building up one of the largest units in the world making synthetic detergent raw materials, and ultimately employing 2,300 people. This was an innovatory effort, and I learned much in practical terms about the subject we are discussing today and about the capabilities we have in this country.
In 1967, I became a member of the board of the National Research Development Corporation, and on 1st March 1969 I was appointed its chairman, a position which I held for exactly 10 years. I retired four weeks ago. My association with the National Research Development Corporation provided a window seat on British innovatory capacity, and I believe that British innovatory capability is competitive, in absolute and relative terms, with that available in any other country.
In terms of exploitation, I agree with the views which have been expressed in the ACARD report. Broadly speaking, I am ready to accept the general conclusions of this report. I have, however, to qualify this by saying that I find it difficult to accept without comment some of the references made to the NRDC, and I would possibly lay more emphasis on some points than on others.
The NRDC is a public corporation which was set up by Parliament 30 years ago in order to promote the development and exploitation of British inventions. Today it has two main activities: first, the licensing of inventions derived from United Kingdom public sector sources—for example, universities, research councils and Government establishments—and, secondly, the provision of finance for innovation by industrial companies. As its former chairman, let me say that the NRDC is now self-financing. It gives value for money. Earnings have risen in the last three years to about £10 million per annum before tax. The NRDC pays £5 million in tax. The corporation is now involved in 440 projects, which in themselves provide employent and create an

1607
annual business with a value of some £100 million in new products for sale at home and abroad. The NRDC owns and administers some 1,500 exploitable patents. It provides finance for work done in the public and private sector, split at the moment about 50:50. The professional skills available in the NRDC—for example, in terms of capability to protect intellectual property in the form of patents—are second to none.
Another point which is of particular importance to people who want to discuss their inventions is the unchallenged integrity of the officers of the corporation. In its 30-year history, more than 37,000 approaches have been made to the corporation by inventors, who necessarily have to disclose the substance of their inventions. There is not one case known of any indiscretion being committed. Accepting that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, may I add that there are now about 30 NRDC-like bodies in other parts of the world which have followed the British example. May I mention, incidentally, that the NRDC is keen to hear about new, worthwhile projects and that it has the funds to support them.
Having said all this, I cannot let the opportunity pass without paying tribute not only to my executive colleagues and to my colleagues generally but in particular to the efforts and the contribution made to the development of the NRDC by my noble friend Lord Halsbury, who was its first managing director, and also by my noble friend Lord Black, who was my precedessor in the chair.
I said that I agree with the recommendations of the ACARD report, but I hope that your Lordships will not consider me to be controversial when I say that I am unable to accept the suggestion that the NRDC should obtain ministerial approval before licensing abroad. I can assure your Lordships that the executives concerned in the NRDC have industrial backgrounds and are fully aware that, from the point of view of United Kingdom employment and balance of payments, it is much better to produce a product here for the home and export markets than it is to sell a licence abroad. Only after all efforts have failed in trying to exploit at home, or when it becomes apparent that it is essential to exploit by production
1608
abroad, does the NRDC consider an overseas licence.
May I now support a specific point which emerges from the ACARD report in regard to relations between university and industry. From my own experience, I have found that some of the most successful innovatory efforts in industry are the result of the ideas and work of academics in their twenties. I am fully aware that the contact between university and industry has been improved in recent years. Great credit goes to the Science Research Council, which is doing its best to support this development. Infinitely more integration of research work at universities and in industry would be to our advantage. I should like to see greater involvement by industry in financial terms—for example, sponsorship by industry of research projects undertaken at universities for industry.
Industry's involvement in university research also gives added assurance that the market place is not lost sight of. We can learn from what others have found in practice. For example, in America—and I have studied this with great care—a very substantial share of the research work at universities is sponsored and funded by industry. Moreover, the involvement of industry would also ensure that the publication of university research work would be handled with care. Personally, I should prefer to see university research workers receiving financial rewards rather than having to get their satisfaction from seeing their names in print, often before efforts have been made to protect the intellectual property they have created.
I should now like to make some general observations. Over the years Britain's investment in new technology has fallen behind that of our industrial rivals. At its best, British technology cannot be beaten. New technologies applied by our competitors represent a threat to our jobs. The only way to overcome this threat is by the introduction of new and better technologies in existing industries and by the creation of new industries based on new technologies.
We have to increase our productivity; we have to create more wealth. Moreover, we have to find employment for more people at a particularly difficult time when microprocessors and robots are

1609
being developed. We have to sell more, particularly abroad. Since the end of the last war our share of the world market has gone down from—I have the figure here of 11·4 per cent., which is less than that mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, to less than 5 per cent. These are statistics and I am fully aware that statistics are often the shortest distance between an unwarranted assumption and a foregone conclusion, but the tendency is quite clear. We have dropped in the share of the world market we are holding.
In setting our targets to produce and sell more we must always bear in mind—as I was taught when I was a very young man—that the perceptive buyer looks for quality, price and service. I have referred to the criterion of quality in speaking about the introduction of new technologies. Price depends on many factors, such as productivity and volume of sales. So far as service is concerned, very important issues are continuity and regularity of supplies. All this makes it obvious that we should approach our task as an industrial team and meet the challenges of our competitors instead of challenging each other as we do so often.
To conclude, I do not think that you, my Lords, who have been born here can be conscious of the immense sense of pride that I, who came from the Continent, with few friends and no resources, feel on this occasion. The debt that I owe to the kindness and humanity of the British people cannot be discharged.
4.13 p.m.
Lord SHACKLETON: My Lords, it is a very great pleasure to me to follow my noble friend—and he is an old friend—Lord Schon. It may not always be appreciated in this country that some of the most devoted British citizens are those who came from abroad and have found their home here, as Lord Schon has done. On the numerous occasions when I have met him his theme has always been the same—a militantly pro-British theme. I think he was correct when he told me that at the outbreak of war, when he and his wife were interned as enemy aliens—probably in the Isle of Man—on the very first night they found themselves in a boarding house, and the thing that stuck in his memory most was that the landlady came and asked his wife what
1610
she wanted for breakfast the following day. Tolerance and ease in a situation like that I think reflects something of the British. However, we very much appreciate that Lord Schon, who has done so much for our country, should now be a Member of our House.
It is not inappropriate that the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal has spoken in this debate, because both noble Lords have strong links with Cumberland. The noble Lord, Lord Schon, has built up his own business there, he has given a great amount of employment, and has recently served with enormous distinction as chairman of the National Research Development Corporation. We appreciate his words of wisdom, and on future occasions, when he may feel freer to give us advice even more frankly than he has done today, he will be very welcome to do so. It is appropriate also that he referred to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, because he was, if not the first, one of the early chairmen of the National Research Development Corporation. It is typical that in your Lordships' House we have people like Lord Schon and Lord Halsbury. If I remember correctly, the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, was the research director of Decca, responsible for the long-playing record and he knows quite a bit about innovation. Again the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, is well known in the engineering profession and it is appropriate that he should introduce this debate.
In the face of this, I feel singularly unqualified to speak today, except that I have spent quite a lot of time in industry and now as president of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee I have been directly concerned in many of these issues. The importance of innovation is not something which has just been discovered, and nobody is suggesting that it is. I remember distinguished people like Dr. Carter of Lancaster University writing with distinction on the subject, and now we have the benefit of the Spinks Report.
I now wish to address some remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley. It is too much to expect anything very original from a report written in a good deal of hurry on this subject by a working party reporting to a council and finding as quickly as it can a description of the problems. If I have a criticism of the report it is that, although I am all for

1611
modesty, this report is too modest. We do not even know who the authors were. How many people realise that, in addition to my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, who at least is not anonymous, others concerned are people like Sir James Menter, the deputy chairman; Dr. Spinks, who was the chairman of the working party and the research director of ICI. My first word of advice to the Lord Privy Seal is that when these reports are published they should be put out in a form that will not deceive the noble Lord, Lord Carr, because Lord Carr has treated this like a regular government report which is going to have detailed recommendations summarising it at the end, whereas the message could not be clearer. He read out the message but he complained that certain recommendations dealing with one particular point did not cover all the words of wisdom contained in the earlier part of the report. I have enormous respect for the noble Lord, Lord Carr—is he restless? No, I do not think so.
Lord CARR of HADLEY: Not too restless, I hope, my Lords. I rather agree with what the noble Lord has said about the presentation of this report. It begins with a chapter which claims to summarise its recommendations and I said, both at the beginning and at the end, and several times in the middle of my remarks, that I thought it was a first class analysis. But I think it would have been better if it had not been produced in such a hurry but was left at the analysis, or that the recommendations had not been gathered together in a separate chapter which gave the feeling that they were the distillation of wisdom, which they were not.
Lord SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think that is a fair criticism. Nevertheless, the message could not be clearer than in fact it is. Of course, it was a report to a council which was reporting to the Government, and they were probably aware of some of the sensitivities of the Government in the matter of taxation. I think it is a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Carr, was as party political as he was, because I intend to make a number of remarks which may not be entirely acceptable to some of my noble friends on this side of the House but I am not intending to do so as a contribution to Conservative propaganda at the next
1612
election. One thing which we have in this House is the ability to discuss these matters pretty freely. Having said that, I fully acknowledge that the noble Lord, Lord Carr, contributes a great deal but I think he was a little unfair to the report.
It is discouraging when a Government try to practise a little open government and actually publish some of their working papers for which everybody is shouting, and they then get ticked off because the form is not suitable. I congratulate Dr. Spinks and the members of this committee on an interesting report. On the other hand, it does need quite a lot of reading to get the real flavour. I suspect the skill of a civil servant somewhere in putting it in a form not too unacceptable to Ministers, and this may be part of the explanation. What I am saying is that a little cosmetic work would have helped.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, I wonder if the noble Lord would be kind enough to tell us who were the subscribers to the report. I did ask the Library this, but the answer came back that they wished to remain anonymous. The noble Lord has mentioned some very distinguished names, and, like him, I should like to know who were the contributors.
Lord SHACKLETON: So should I, my Lords. I tried a little research too, without much success. The Library did find out for me who were the original members of ACARD, and having just run into Sir James Menter I was able to confirm that he is still deputy-chairman. I do think it would be perfectly valid to name the contributors to a report of this kind from a number of distinguished people, and we should at least like to know whether the members of the council are still the same as they were when it was set up in 1976.
Much of the report is concerned with comparison with the United States, following a study—and inevitably we are back with these ghastly acronyms—of NTBFs, which stands for New Technology Based Firms, and not total bloody fools, as I thought. What is really rather strange is that, despite the advantages of having NTBFs in profusion in the United States, at least during the decade 1966–76 the industrial performance of the United States was not all that good. The

1613
interesting thing is that this year and last year it has been running at a rate double what it was during the previous decade, and a good deal better than Western Europe. This rather suggests that in the long run Governments are important and macro-economic conditions still determine a great deal. But nonetheless there are still obstacles in this country, and the report sets this out very clearly, even if its authors were too frightened or too wise to make specific recommendations on some matters.
I know that this Government has done a great deal in trying to stimulate industry and there is much they can be proud of, but there are certain weaknesses. I repeat what I believe the noble Lord, Lord Carr, said—that, without a sizeable class of wealthy individual patrons, small businesses in Britain have to rely on institutional finance. While acknowledging what the NRDC has done and what other bodies have done, the fact is—and this is something that we in the Labour Party have really got to face up to—that, as I am quite sure the leading figures in the present Government are aware, taxation of the individual is too high. I am not talking about company taxation; that is perfectly all right; nobody likes it, but it is as reasonably good as in any country. We have a fundamental dilemma here. By and large, there can be no accumulation of private wealth, especially by some of the means used to amass those enormous accumulations made during the property boom—dare I say? under a Conservative Government; perhaps I should not because that is too party political. But the fact remains that an individual is able and more willing to take risks than any institution.
Let me refer to the other ACARD report on the application of semi-conductor technology. There, written for all to see, is the following:
"A feature of acvances in the application of semi-conductors, particularly in the United States, has been that they have depended on innovative entrepreneurial activity, mostly by individuals. If the United Kingdom is to respond effectively to the opportunities, it will be necessary to create appropriate economic and social conditions to encourage such innovative activity".
This is where, again, they become a bit discreet:
"The actions needed to bring this about involve social and political questions outside the competence of ACARD".
1614
This is were again they slightly burke the question. We understand why. The truth of the matter is that Silicon Valley has been largely financed.… The noble Lord, Lord Soames, looks unhappy.
Lord SOAMES: My Lords, I was just saying that it is a great pity to burke the question.
Lord SHACKLETON: I see. The noble Lord was nodding.
Lord SOAMES: The Japanese do that, too.
Lord SHACKLETON: My Lords, the noble Lord, as a former European Commissioner, is well qualified. The truth of the matter is that Silicon Valley has been to a large extent financed by individuals who have either financed themselves or their friends, and I know people who are able to raise this money. When it comes to innovation one really wants to look at how it works. It is not just the inventor. It may not even be the production man. There is the market entrepreneur. But they are people who will take a risk. The proportion of failure is very high indeed, and this makes it more difficult even for a body like the NRDC. The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, will remember hydrofoil boats and other activities which for one reason or another they turned down. Although capital gains tax at 30 per cent. is by no means unreasonable, there is no doubt that marginal rates of taxation do prevent the accumulation of private wealth, and to some extent this is our dilemma in the party. We believe in a mixed economy, but to some extent we are reluctant to allow those essential requirements to work in the capitalist part of the economy. Somehow we need to face this, and I believe the Government do understand that.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to a report in the United States written by Albert Shapero from the Wharton Business School. I am a bit doubtful as to whether MBAs really do contribute all that amount to innovation, because they are so busy creating their models, and this is to a large extent an instinctive thing. But they did carry out an interesting study and were able to point out that a number of United States corporations

1615
in 1970 decided that they were going to foster entrepreneurial activities, to go into what was called venture management outside ordinary corporate control, other than perhaps a financial control, and that a high proportion of these have failed. We have this dilemma here. Therefore, I think the individual entrepreneur, whether we like it or not, is important, and he needs the money. Interesting though the proposal is that merchant banks might put up money and do a little testing on this, I do doubt, admirable though merchant banks are, whether they are really competent to take this sort of decision. This is something we will need to think carefully about.
Too many corporate institutions are essentially conservative, and I am not being political in saying that. They will always try to cut their cloth and to organise their affairs to fit in with corporate philosophy, and sometimes to stop developments because they do not fit. This is not to say that we should not encourage big companies to engage in this sort of venture activity. I know some where they have small companies really allowed to run on their own, to be judged by their profits, conforming broadly to the social philosophy of the company in regard to standards of integrity and so on, but having an opportunity to share in the profits, even to the extent that the managing director of a small company may be making more money than the chairman of the main board. That is to be found in a number of areas.
I wish to leave those thoughts with the Government because I believe that the Government—I hope a Labour Government, but if not it will certainly be a Conservative Government—should make a greater amount of money available for individual entrepreneurial activities. I hope that that will not be quoted in any election literature!
I should like to comment on one or two other matters. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley, that it is rather surprising that there is absolutely no reference—so far as I can see—to Europe and the industrial strategy. Yet there is the distinguished man Davignon hard at work, and who incidentally gave a very good talk at Chatham House the
1616
other day. The truth is that we are not European, despite the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Soames. I was a supporter of entry into Europe—not on industrial grounds but on political grounds. None the less, we hope that we shall see it and that those who run the European economy will evolve a philosophy that is meaningful to the people of this country.
There is one other matter that I should have liked to have discussed and that is the situation in Japan. Japan, again is a very different place. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, and I, in our quiet way, made an expert study of Japan many years ago. We know that Japanese culture and society is very different from ours and that their community approach, their guarantee of continued employment and their paternalistic loyalty are things which we cannot expect to achieve in our freer-minded society. None the less, I commend for the Government's consideration the report on Japan of the Select Committee on Science and Technology in another place. It is all the more alarming for me to hear—I know that this is not for us to say—that there are proposals in another place to abolish the Select Committee on Science and Technology, which was largely set up on the initiative (as was the National Research and Development Corporation) of the original Parliamentary and Scientific Committee.
The reason I mention that matter with great nervousness—not that another place ever shrinks from criticising us—is that if it were to do so then, in view of the wealth of ability which we have and the quality of the reports that are coming now from our European Committee, I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will give consideration to the setting up of a Select Committee in this House. After all, we have the ability here. One only has to look at the excellent reports from the subcommittees of the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, and the noble Lord, Lord Ashby, to see what can be done.
That leads me to make a passing reference to the latest Government report entitled, Review of the Framework for Government Research and Development. We may not get time to debate it here, but it is open to consideration and it is the sort of matter that might well be dealt with by a committee in your Lordships' House.

1617
We are having an interesting debate and I hope that ACARD will be encouraged to continue its work. It may be that it might wish to spell out, in words that the noble Lord, Lord Carr, can understand, what it is perhaps too frightened to say directly. However, it is a valuable report, but it takes a great deal of reading. Meanwhile, much depends on the Government's attitude and their appreciation of the role of management. At the moment, there is a malaise in management. I happened to preside at a lunch where the Prince of Wales delivered a very good speech. Unfortunately, there were one or two sections of it, which the Press leapt upon, about British managers not being good enough. He was accused of Left-Wing views, whereas others said he was merely representing the views of the City about industrial management. None the less, I believe that the Government's attitude, and the points which my noble friend Lord Gregson made with regard to the increasing status of engineers and technologists, is fundamental, and I hope that that will be part of a continuing policy of whatever Government there is in this country.
4.35 p.m.
Lord RUGBY: My Lords, I should like to express my thanks for the privilege of addressing your Lordships' House for the first time. It would have been difficult for me to let pass the opportunity of taking part in this debate as I already have a personal involvement with innovation, albeit part-time, and all that it involves; namely, patenting, demonstrating and marketing on my own account. It is a very far cry from the position of the noble Lord, Lord Schon, at the head of NRDC to my rather low-ranking position, which one might say provides the worm's eye view.
At the outset, therefore, I must declare an inescapable interest as I am but one among a galaxy of lone individuals who apply what skills they possess and put their mind towards either improving or designing generically new products where the need exists, within the scope of their own trade. As inventors we accept, and even embrace, the compulsive challenge of a problem and, by the process of the slow drip, drip of applied thinking over long periods, achieve answers of a
1618
mechanical nature to problems of long intractability—and that is not an uncommon attribute.
The booklet by ACARD, among its other deliberations, has touched on the problems faced by individual inventors and sadly offers little comfort to them. It is, I believe, a fact, and a tragic one, that less than a quarter of 1 per cent. of inventions ever reach commercial success. The great majority are allowed to wither away or are cannibalised by astute plagiarists here and abroad. It is indeed of national importance that this tremendous wastage of free talent should receive such scant recognition. ACARD has set the ball rolling with its booklet. I hope that high level action will result from it. The evidence submitted to the Wilson Committee by Mr. William Kingston, was, in my view, of enormous impact and importance.
As a start, may I therefore, crave the indulgence of your Lordships' House in setting out a basic sequence of invention. Already the old adage has been quoted today—namely, "necessity is the mother of invention"—and necessity is the prime mover towards concentrating the mind on the analysis of a problem, towards improvisation and testing ideas or, in other words, towards doing the basic research. Success is likely to be elusive, but when it comes—if it comes—it is indeed the very simplicity of the solution which provides endeavour with its truest reward. Simple solutions can, however, be misleading and frequently get tagged with the comment, "Any fool could have thought of that", or "How come it was never thought of before?".
Successful research leads to the next stage—development. That means prototype construction, testing under all conceivable conditions, incurring patenting costs, carrying out demonstration under the eyes of professional judges and also of commercial institutions, and testing the purchasing end of the market—the ultimate users. At that point, the entire cost is carried on the back of one person. It is only at that stage that some kind of commercial cash evaluation can be attributed to an invention, and that evaluation must be based on the proven facts up to date, coupled with a decision to manufacture and to sell. The product has, as yet, no track record other than those

1619
assessments and, therefore, market research contains a high element of faith rather than facts which have yet to be established.
This booklet refers to track records and market research as being the criteria for success. I believe that this is the stumbling block, because the individual, lone inventor is isolated from these commercial capabilities. Consequently, if the success of an invention which has achieved acclaim on its own merits now becomes dependent for ultimate success on the attitudes of market researchers and commercial criticism, that is tantamount to saying that one has scored one's century but unless one can prove oneself a wicket-keeper and a bowler as well and have a relationship with the selection committee, one will get no further.
Having discussed and learned from the experiences of specific inventors who reached the pinnacles of success, one learns that invention was only a part of the total struggle. The breaking into and the establishing of the market was the last enemy, and a formidable one. It is as well to recognise at the outset that the reaction of companies towards inventions which have an impact on their own markets is quite simple, They do not like them. Such inventions tend to distract them, to disturb them and to create problems for them. Companies say to themselves, "If we ignore this invention, it could be to our disadvantage if one of our competitors takes it up"; or, "If we do take it up, what happens to our other production lines? Would we be left with unsold stock on ourhands?"; or "What will be the reaction of our own established research engineering and marketing departments if we go over their heads and take in an outside product?" That is known as the "NIH syndrome", meaning "Not invented here".
There is no doubt that managements of the larger companies tread warily. They are motivated by numerous pressures. Too often they resort to gambits; such as obtaining exclusive licences on inventions with the sole intention of a delaying and a holding operation and with the ultimate extinction of that specific threat in mind. Therefore, the young seedlings of invention which in truth formed the
1620
origins of these very companies today find no place to take root other than these preservations, these entangled pastures. Invention, private enterprise—call it what you will—needs to flourish in a climate of inspiration, encouragement and enthusiasm, and that should come most especially from those who control the economic destiny of this country.
4.42 p.m.
The Earl of SHANNON: My Lords, I know noble Lords will agree that this afternoon we have listened to two quite exceptional maiden speeches. I know that I speak for the whole House when I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rugby, on giving us the benefit of his personal knowledge and involvement in innovation. Although slightly belatedly, I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Schon, for giving us of his unrivalled knowledge. I would merely say that it has been our loss that he has chosen to keep a three-year silence. I hope that both noble Lords will now give us of their knowledge at regular intervals. Like other noble Lords, I should like to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, and, in this instance, to Dr. Spinks, the chairman of the sub-committee which prepared this report. In addition, I certainly do not forget the noble Lord the Leader of the House who is chairman of ACARD and the other reputedly anonymous members of ACARD—I have a feeling that somewhere in my office I have their names on a file, which, of course, I have forgotten to bring with me.
For many years your Lordships' House has been an excellent forum for debating the related subjects of research, development, pilot production—in fact, the whole spectrum of the innovation process. Some recent notable occasions come immediately to mind, apart from those already mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley. I have in mind the Green Paper of Mr. Wedgwood Benn which was an attempt to form the British Research Development Corporation, which was to make Government laboratories wholly commercial. With the loss of that General Election, that got no further. Then we had the White Paper, Framework for Government Research and Development, which is now more generally known as the Rothschild Report. However, today we are debating this new

1621
ACARD Report on innovation in industry, which I submit is meaty, accurate and wholly appropriate at this time. The real fault I find with it is that it was not prepared and acted upon by Governments about 30 years ago. Had that been so, I do not think we would be in the industrial mess we are in today.
It is not only a British lament that national inventiveness is seldom carried through to full commercial exploitation. In my position with the research associations in this country and as secretary of a similar body in Europe, I hear similar wailing and gnashing of teeth by my opposite numbers among our European neighbours. However, in spite of that, I believe that we must be at the head of the "lack of exploitation" league, if only because of our quite exceptionally large traditional national innovative capability. As a nation we never did compete on level terms with other, often larger, nations. When we tried to do so, we usually lost, but we continually found a way round that with new technology, which left us with an advantage and in a winning position.
All that leads me to the one outstanding recommendation of this report—which has been referred to by every other speaker—regarding the lack of incentive today. Do noble Lords honestly believe that Sir Francis Drake, Sir Walter Raleigh or Sir Richard Grenville would have wreaked the ruin that they did on the treasure fleets of Imperial Spain just for the fun of it? No. It was because their gracious Sovereign gave them something from their successes for themselves and their men. What is more, they were free from being clobbered on arrival with income tax, import duties, surtax, VAT, national insurance surcharges on their crews, capital gains tax and probably a long battle with the local inspector of taxes over allowances for depreciation and damage suffered by their ships in the action. If that is the sort of ridiculous attitude which has been adopted by successive, and, I respectfully suggest, not very clever Governments over the last 40-odd years, how then can they wonder why the entrepreneurial implementer of innovation and new technology is no longer prepared to stick his neck out, work hard, create employment and risk his little all when, if successful, the benefits will be grabbed by a greedy State in
1622
order to finance its political programmes of teaching the electorate not to earn its living but to vote for it instead?
At this point I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who is president of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee. As a past vice-president and present deputy chairman of that body, I would recommend your Lordships to bear strongly in mind that, should there be no Select Committee on Science and Technology in the House of Commons, your Lordships should think of forming one here.
I have referred to the obvious outstanding recommendation regarding fiscal change contained in the report which, if implemented, will do more good for the national economy of this country than all the Cabinet meetings held in the last 15 years. I would remind noble Lords that to do full justice to this report would require a speech of not less than two hours; so, perforce, I shall have to confine myself to only two areas where I have personal knowledge, and leave the others to abler tongues than mine. First, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to Recommendation 2(iii) regarding the expansion of the Department of Industry's manufacturing advisory service. As your Lordships may or may not know, this is a scheme where selected small and medium-sized companies from industrial priority sectors—as well as a few volunteers who have answered through the publicity given to the scheme—receive the offer of a visit from a recently retired and usually well known industrialist in that sector. Such an advisory visit usually leads to a take-up of the 15 man-days of free consultancy provided by the service. Then, if they wish, to a further 15 man-days where the company pays half the cost of the consultancy itself. Finally, many companies continue the consultancy wholly at their own expense. I would remind your Lordships that in many cases this is in respect of companies who have never sought outside help in any way at all.
The scheme was originally planned on a programme of five years, of which the second year finishes this coming July. The programme provided for 640 firms to be visited in the first two years, and that target is being met. Then, in the third year, this target was to be raised to 700

1623
firms a year, hoping to rise to 1,000 firms a year in years four and five. Among the volunteers there was of course almost 100 per cent. take-up of the services offered. However, of those companies who were selected 80 per cent. agreed to a first visit. Of that 80 per cent., 80 per cent. agreed to the free 15 days' consultancy. That means that of those approached initially 64 per cent. accepted the consultancy. Of that 64 per cent. half continued by themselves paying in the next stage half the cost of the consultancy and, as I said before, many of these companies had never sought outside help to their business. It was a foreign thought to them, but they are now fully convinced.
In fact, a sample survey from 30 firms early on gave the following figures, which I believe will be representative of the bulk of the number of firms visited during the scheme: 93 per cent. declared themselves satisfied; 77 per cent. went so far as to say that they were well satisfied; and of the recommendations made by the consultants to these firms over 75 per cent. were implemented, all at the cost of the firms themselves. It is calculated that the cost benefit over three years, based on the total cost of the scheme to the Exchequer, will he of a benefit ratio in the terms of 14 to 1. This, I think your Lordships will agree, is a valuable scheme in assisting our national economy, although I say it as a very humble member of the steering committee of that scheme.
I hope that the Government will agree to expand what is a proved success. I hope in this respect that we may receive the assurance of the Conservative spokesman that, should they win the possible Election, they will not unthinkingly destroy this manufacturing advisory scheme as they did previously the similar production engineering advisory scheme. I hope that they now have fully prepared policies in this field. The last time I suspect that they had very little policy, and perhaps this was because they were surprised themselves that they won that Election. Instead, at that time they substituted the smug, sanctimonious noises about lame ducks, and, in a frenzy of capitalist puritanism, cancelled anything to do with a subsidised service.
There is nothing wrong in the present circumstances in using public money to
1624
assist industry on a co-operative basis. What is wrong is to rely on the advice of some whizz kids from a large multinational company and then tell small industry to stand on its own feet when, for years, Governments have been removing the very financial legs on which they now expect these industries to stand.
Now, may I come to Recommendation 2(iv), which recommends the provision of support to research associations and engineering institutions to study, reasearch, and publicise sciences towards efficient, internationally competitive manufacture. The entry fee today—in fact even a capability in new technology—is often very large and beyond the resources of anything except those of the largest organisations. An intelligent Government programme, initiative, and participation, especially in purchasing, often produces spin-off of great value to industry. Of course we all know of the classic example of the United States Government when they made their decision to place a man on the moon. It produced either spin-off or slop-over, as you prefer to call it, of immense value to their industry, especially in the microelectronics field, which is now even threatening us with a new industrial revolution.
Recommendation 5 calls upon the Government to encourage the research associations to play a wider role in their industries, particularly in the subsections to provide information services and machinery evaluation services on equipment available both at home and abroad. Next, to provide research and technical support for small firms at prices those firms can afford. Also to develop their roll one might call it, as a stepping-stone, to be used by highly qualified academics to enter industry. All this the research associations already do, to a greater or lesser extent depending on their resources.
However, spurred on by the numerous references to the research associations in this report, those in membership of the committee of directors of research associations met to consider this report and to prepare a programme of intensification and enlargement of their activities in line with the recommendations. In this respect they suggest that the programme should include: make desk surveys of available new technology; visit manufacturers and users at home and abroad to gain technical

1625
or economic information on new technology; make techno-economic studies of new and emerging technology; evaluate in laboratory and in factory these new technologies; carry out demonstration projects for equipment and installations; provide information services to disseminate the information gained; also provide training services and hands-on training centres for technology transfer mainly to management and supervisors.
The research associations, as your Lordships well know, were originally formed to support small firms, and in this particular field they envisage an enlargement of their present activities under four main categories: to provide selective dissemination of information services; prepare raw material, product and equipment directories; also prepare forecasts of trade and market trends by area; to carry out inter-firm comparisons; to conduct Which? type evaluations of plant, equipment and materials; to provide information "desks" manned to meet the information needs of small firms; as well as providing "small firms information services" which are to be evolved over a period as a result of experience with this scheme, but initially to be carefully designed, tested, and refined.
In the field of consultancy, they should provide limited consultancy services and trouble-shooting covering all aspects, from marketing through production to distribution; they should carry out in-plant technical audits and waste reduction exercises; they should conduct testing and evaluation of suitability for purpose of equipment because suppliers often do not regularly visit small firms; and they should advise on factory planning. On training, they should organise short courses and discussion groups set up locally, especially for small firms, and provide hands-on training courses at which small firms' owners, and staff if required, could gain experience actually by operating the latest equipment useful for small firms. With regard to the membership of research associations, it is hoped to be able to define some form of membership package suitable for small firms and to encourage them to participate in the work of their research associations.
I come to Recommendation 12, which refers to increasing our low proportion of qualified personnel in industry compared
1626
with other successful developed countries. There has always been a sometimes inconvenient but nevertheless acceptable drain on research association staffs, who are enticed into member companies. However, to organise and regularise such a flow, the following activities are suggested: to provide full-time tutors in the research associations to liaise with universities and look after trainees; to institute higher degree work in research associations; and to organise a scheme to support entrants to work alongside experienced research association staff on projects and consultancies in the laboratory and especially on in-factory jobs. But this type of work, unlike that previously mentioned, would not necessarily normally lead to higher degrees.
The research associations could also develop a university computer placement council, rather like the present UCCA scheme which places school-leavers in the university. In such a context, research associations would be particularly well placed to develop, in co-operation with universities, a scheme whereby employers could notify their research association of vacancies for graduates and the association would computer process the information on a fee basis. That information would be made available to the universities on terminals to help undergraduates match their skills with the available industrial jobs notified.
Recommendations 8 and 9, dealing with the involvement of the research associations with the sector working parties and the research requirement boards in assessing technical strategies for sectors of industry, have the fullest support of the research associations, who are ready to play their part in making what they believe to be a significant contribution through their unique position in the industries which they serve.
Recommendation 11—strengthening relationships with universities and industry—is closely akin to the research associations' suggestions which I have already made on Recommendation 5(iii), and the research associations would appreciate being consulted further on any part they might play in further assisting such relationships.
Time does not permit me to observe other sections of the report. I would only observe, in conclusion, that the

1627
report has great merit and deserves to be heeded and acted upon by Government of whatever political colour. Whoever may emerge victors at the next Election, it should be a salutary thought for them to reflect that British industry is far more important to the country than British government. They should do all they can to encourage innovation and the adoption of new technology in British industry, because history has shown us that we have survived and can survive only by the intelligent use of our wits rather than by sheer manpower—which, compared with the low wage developing countries, we do not have—or the temporary fortunate relief currently enjoyed by the possession of scarce natural resources.
5.5 P.m.
Lord WILSON of HIGH WRAY: My Lords, I join with others in congratulating the noble Lords, Lord Schon and Lord Rugby, on their maiden speeches, which were extremely good and interesting, as were all the speeches we have heard today. I finished writing the speech I was proposing to make to your Lordships' House at 11 o'clock last night, and it might have taken me 20 minutes to deliver. Noble Lords will be extremely pleased to hear that virtually everything I was going to say has been said and will be recorded in Hansard, and therefore I need not say it.
I agree with others that this is an excellent report and that, if only it could be implemented, it would be a fine thing for industry. I was particularly interested in the stress laid on the importance of the small firm. Until six months ago I was the chairman of a small, rather specialised, engineering firm in the North-West of England which was started in 1853, was bought by my great uncle in 1881 and has been managed by various members of the family ever since. The only reason it has kept its head above water has been because we have spent a lot of money on research and development. We were fortunate in that when my first cousin joined the firm immediately after the 1914–18 war—he was an extremely good engineer who had passed out from McGill University in his first year—he started off by inventing a new water turbine which enabled us to compete with the very
1628
strong German competition overseas between the wars. He went on to develop a new type of pump, but that took a great deal of getting off the ground; it was years before we really got it off the ground, until we found during the last war that it was an ideal marine engine cooling water pump, and we are now selling large numbers to Caterpillar in the United States, to Cummings and other American builders. I assure noble Lords that selling engine components in the United States is harder than selling pork in Jerusalem.
We were founder members of the British Hydraulics Research Association and have always kept our association with it. We use the Production Engineering Research Association and we have never had a penny assistance from the Government; we have had to paddle our own canoe the whole time. We are reasonably profitable. We do not make a lot of money but I believe we have one of the best engineering workshops in the North-West of England and we try to keep abreast of the times. I will not take up the time of noble Lords any further or continue to blow the trumpet of the firm with which I have been associated for some 45 years.
5.9 p.m.
Lord KINGS NORTON: My Lords, I wish to add my thanks to those which the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, has already received for so effectively introducing this debate and for giving us such a good idea of the merits of the ACARD paper. It was a great pleasure to hear the noble Lord the Leader of the House at an early stage of the debate and, while I should love him to tell us in his remarks at the end of the debate how many of these recommendations the Government are prepared to accept, I shall not expect too much of him. However, I was extremely glad to have his assurance that the Government will consider the report very carefully and I hope that, should there by any chance be a new Government, they will be equally receptive.
I should like to add my congratulations to those already extended to the maiden speakers. The noble Lord, Lord Schon, is an old friend of mine. I knew him in his role as chairman of the NRDC and I knew him in his pioneering role in the chemical industry in the North of England.

1629
We have been waiting three years for his maiden speech and I hope that we shall not have to wait as long a time for his next one. I also wish to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rugby, whom I do not know so well, on what I thought was a most valuable contribution to the debate, and I hope that he too will be a frequent contributor to our discussions.
I find that the recommendations to improve the lot of small firms do in fact have some merit. I am the chairman of three small firms and, to that extent, perhaps I should declare an interest. Each of the firms is concerned with the development of an area of very advanced technology and each spends far too much of the time which should be devoted to development seeking the money with which to do it. I am therefore glad that in his introductory remarks the noble Lord, Lord Peart, mentioned the general problem of the high technology small firm. In my experience what these small organisations need above all else is risk capital, and the ACARD report makes it quite clear that private risk capital is rarely available in the United Kingdom.
The effect of taxation upon the ability of the private individual to supply risk capital has been mentioned several times this afternoon, and on page 24 of the report it is underlined most emphatically. If, too, one goes, as one occasionally does, to a merchant bank, the first demand is usually for a set of the last few annual reports so that the bank can get a clue to the profit record of the company. Of course that is not of much use to a company which is just starting up and is looking for assistance. This matter is dealt with to some extent—and very cleverly—by Mr. William Kingston in his submission to the Wilson Committee, which I read with great interest but perhaps not complete understanding. It is Annexe II of the ACARD report.
Along with the ACARD working party, I believe that we have reached a point in our complex and financially inadequate system of backing innovation at which drastic change is necessary. This change when it is codified—and I hope it will be—should be based partly on the recommendations of the ACARD report and partly on Mr. William Kingston's recommendations, but it must include, whether by
1630
direct arrangements or by taxation incentives, the provision of real risk capital.
Whatever changes are made, directly or by tax change, to ease the flow of risk capital into innovative enterprises, somewhere in the administrative chain between the request for aid and the decision on whether or not to grant it there will have to be a judgment. That judgment will be made by officials, whether they be government officials or institutional officials. One would like to be sure that the judgment will be made by people who are well qualified to judge. It seems to me that, whatever system evolves, government will be involved and, with all respect, engineering judgments by government and by institutions (with equal respect) have, in my view, too often been unimaginative and over-cautious in the past.
Basically, the ACARD report seeks to provide risk capital, and risk and caution cannot very well go hand in hand. We shall need a new spirit in official and institutional circles—I hope an adventurous spirit. We shall need, too, critics who are well informed in the areas in which the prospects have to be evaluated and in which decisions have to be made. I believe that in the past governments have been severely handicapped in that their departmental organisation does not automatically provide the kind of judge I mean. Unlike the civil services of France and Germany, senior administration here does not automatically include scientists and technologists. Engineers from our universities, unlike the graduates from Ecole Polytechnique do not naturally flow into the administrative levels of the civil service and the financial institutions. I believe that, in parallel with reforms such as are urged in the report, we should once again—we have tried before—attempt to remedy a situation which to me indicates a serious defect in our system.
The noble Lord, Lord Gregson, mentioned the lack of engineers and designers in industry. Equally there is a lack of them in the higher administration of our civil and institutional services. Indeed, if as a result of the examination of the report we decide, either through the mechanism of a Select Committee such as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, mentioned or by other means, to reform our attitudes towards and methods of supporting research and development, we

1631
should carry the reform beyond the area of the report in yet another direction as well. We should look not only at the scale of our expenditure on research and development but at the distribution of that expenditure. That ACARD is conscious of this is evident from paragraph 2.3 of the report. It might, for example—and I emphasise that this is an example, not a proposal—with the energy problem at the end of this century so firmly before us, be more profitable for the United Kingdom to spend less on nuclear fusion research and more on research into mining coal faster.
Behind all the suggestions for change there lies of course the wish to create wealth more rapidly than we do now. We can only satisfy without inflation legitimate desires for higher wages by creating wealth a great deal faster. This can be done inter alia by innovating faster. But it will be no good finding ways to accelerate innovation unless there is a receptive attitude in industry to innovation and change. The dependence of wealth creation on innovation and productivity must somehow be understood at all levels in industry if we are ever again to take full advantage of our undoubed inventive and innovative talents.
What we are saying today, like the recommendations of the ACARD document, inevitably implies criticism of things as they are. I want to say, therefore, that I know from long experience inside Government—departments I was for many years a civil servant—and outside government departments that the organisations which exist to assist innovation help to the very best of their abilities. They are, however, restricted in ways that I have indicated by the frameworks within which they have to operate. I should not like my remarks today to be taken amiss by bodies from which I have received deeply appreciated help in the past. Here I have in mind not only Government Departments but the NRDC and the NEB. I, or rather organisations with which I am connected, have had help from all these bodies. Like the rest of us, I have been particularly pleased about the success of the NRDC. It had small beginnings and its ability to help was inevitably for some years on a limited scale. It is still not a large organisation, but it has had notable
1632
successes, of which the most spectacular are to me the hovercraft and the wonder drug cephalosporin.
The NRDC has become a powerful instrument of great value to the nation and certainly my submission that there are not enough scientists and technologists in senior administration does not apply to the NRDC. That is one of the reasons for its success. It comes in for some criticism in paragraph 4.7 of the report and I hope it will as a result make its capacity and its overall policy more publicly known than it has been so far. I hope that the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Schon, today will have more publicity than I am afraid it is likely to get at the present time.
In so far as there needs to be, as is suggested in paragraph 4.8, a definition of the relative rôles of NRDC and NEB, I must say that I thought the position was already reasonably clear. The NRDC may support novel inventions which may or may not come to commercial fruition: the NEB may support existing companies which need capital for expansion or in some cases survival.
Perhaps this is not quite the best time to be asking the Government to give their utmost sympathy to the ACARD recommendations and their earnest consideration to what noble Lords are saying today; they can be forgiven for being preoccupied with other matters. But, however various the views we have on the performance of the Government, I think there is one matter on which we can all congratulate them—and I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Carr, would agree in this—and that is on the setting up of ACARD. I feel sure that that was a good thing and, in producing this report, I believe ACARD has done something extremely valuable. I think the noble Lord the Leader of the House must be pleased with his team.
5.22 p.m.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, like others who have spoken I should like to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Gregson, for initiating this debate; and I should also like to apologise to him because I missed the first two minutes of his speech. I was preoccupied with the business of the House this morning, and

1633
had to attend to a small, force-3 domestic crisis in the lunch-hour, which necessitated my being here a few minutes late. My Lords, I think we have had two very remarkable maiden speeches from my noble friends Lord Schon and Lord Rugby; and if I concentrate rather more on Lord Schon's speech than on Lord Rugby's it is because, as one innovator to another, I shall look forward to discussing innovation with him at a later stage. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Schon, was wise, witty and modest, and I am sure that his expression of loyalty to a protector for his protection touched your Lordships' hearts. Gratitude is one of the highest of the human virtues, and I am sure we are as keen to have Lord Schon among us as a citizen and a Member of your Lordships' House as he is to be a British citizen at this day.
Our paths crossed a long time ago, earlier than either of us knew. He told your Lordships how at the Deutsche Hydriawerke he was concerned with the development of the first of the non-soapy detergents—nowadays called detergents although, in the strict sense of the word, soap is itself a detergent. I read about this work when I was a young chemist, and I thought it was so original that I wanted to do something like it. At the time when Lord Schon was arriving here in this country I had just got going on Merseyside the Halsbury process as an alternative for making these particular classes of detergents. I had had a very tough time in collecting the money necessary to build the first plant. I slightly bent the local rules, which said that I could get by with local sanction provided I did not spend more than £500. I built the first plant for £500 out of the collective scrap yards of Merseyside. The war promptly broke out, bringing us Lord Schon with it, and I found myself the possessor of a monopoly market, and that £500 plant earned £10,000 net profit in its first year. Later, it was a great pleasure to know that Lord Schon had inherited the organisation of which I was managing director in its modest beginnings.
Coming now to the circumstances of our debate, the noble Lord, Lord Carr, said that he agreed with the analytic substance of what was in this report; and the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, said what a pity it was not all said 30 or
1634
40 years ago. If the noble Earl had said 20 or 30 years ago, I could have replied, "Yes, but it was said. I have been saying it for the last 20 or 30 years myself". I published it in The Times, in the Financial Times, in the Daily Telegraph and in innumerable trade journals; I have made broadcasts on it, and I have been on television on it. There is nothing in this report that I could not have written 20 years ago so far as the analytic side (praised by Lord Carr) is concerned. Then we come to the noble Earl's assumption that if it had been said 30 or 40 years ago it would have been acted on and we would not be where we are today. My Lords, it was said 20 or 30 years ago, so why was it not acted on? Why is it not being acted on?
It is because two essential matters are not referred to in this report—matters which are critical in the field of innovation. They are nothing to do with administration, and there is nothing the Government can do about them directly. One is imagination and the other is courage. These are not qualities you show in obedience to orders; they are qualities fostered by the environments you live in, granted a certain natural endowment in the first place. The individual and the environment in which he lives interact with one another dialectically, and each develops the qualities of the other. If you want to be an innovator, work in an innovative environment! If you want to have a healthy innovative industry, then back innovators! There is nothing so encouraging for the innovator as to have an environment that is backing him and has confidence in him. But, unfortunately, during the 20 to 30 years that the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, was talking about we have done everything to discourage and dishearten people. I come back over and over again to Prayer Time in your Lordships' House, when we ought to recite the General Confession, because if ever there was a body of men who have done all those things they ought not to have done, and left undone all those things they ought to have done, it is the legislative Assembly at Westminster. We continue to allow Governments to do all those things they ought not to do, and to leave undone all those things they ought to do.
With that, my Lords, having made I think quite a sufficient contribution by

1635
way of one good point, I should like to say that I entirely agree with the recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that if the Standing Committee in the other place is to be dissolved then we should set up our own—and, my goodness!, what magnificent candidates we have in our maiden speakers this afternoon—and I hope we shall do so.
5.28 p.m.
Lord PEART: My Lords, with the permission of the House I should like to say a few words in winding-up. May I say first how delighted I was to hear the two maiden speakers. They were excellent in their knowledge; they knew what they were talking about, and they said it clearly. I wish I could have made as effective a speech when I made my maiden speech. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Rugby, will not mind if I stress the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Schon, because he is really my neighbour. He is Lord Schon of Whitehaven and I am Lord Peart of Workington. I think we have a better rugby league team than they have, but that is the only difference. But I was delighted to hear him speak here because he has done so much for this country. He has a lovely family, who I hope were here to listen to him; and his friends in Cumberland will read his speech with pride, because I am sure it will be in the West Cumberland News. If it is not, I will make sure that it has the widest publicity. So I was delighted with our two maiden contributors.
May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Carr, that probably I was a little hard on him. I know he is a reasonable and fair man. I believe that whatever Government are in power, they will have to continue the work of ACARD. I think this message was conveyed by Lord Kings Norton, who, after all, is Chancellor of Cranfield Institute of Technology, apart from being a previous scientific adviser to Governments. I listened carefully to his words.
I cannot take up every point that was raised; but I think the debate has been a useful and stimulating one, and has shown again the breadth of experience in this House and the value of the insight and judgment that it can bring to so many varied subjects. This is "the Lords"
1636
at its best. May I say, however, that industrial innovation is not just an interesting topic for debate, but a subject about which we cannot afford ignorance; it is a process which lies at the heart of our future prospects. This was emphasised over and over again by noble Lords. That is why I was pleased when the Advisory Council for Applied Research and Development decided that they ought to undertake a study and to report on it.
Mention has been made about the need to publicise the authors of the report. I will look into that. That is a fair point. I have noted what the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, had to say in his very full speech—and, after all, he is the chairman of the Select Committee—about the need to have a similar Select Committee here, if something should happen to the Select Committee in the other place. I think that your Lordships could do this job very well. We have the people who could serve on that committee. I think it is a point worth considering.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Government have welcomed the report. Its informed analysis gives valuable support to many aspects of industrial strategy, and on a number of its recommendations action is under way. Other recommendations are still under examination; although, as I explained, it may not be possible to accept every one of the advisory council's proposals. But I shall take away for consideration by my colleagues a number of points which have been made. It was a stimulating debate and I was glad at the number of speakers who emphasised that the best machinery and methods are of little use without the right men to operate them. There is a need for a change in national opinion towards engineering. This point was taken up again by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton. I agree with him. I believe that this is important in our society. There is too much snobbishness about the idea of a pure science degree, academically; but we do not want pure scientists, we need many more engineers. This is why America is so successful, whether we like it or not, the Japanese and also the Soviet Union, where the engineer has an important role in that society.
My Lords, we need to change national opinion towards engineering and to increase the supply of trained manpower

1637
at all levels. This is recognised in the council's report as a vital part of any programme. As noble Lords know this whole subject is currently under consideration by the Finniston Committee which should be reporting this year. The Government are supporting and encouraging promising schemes such as the Department of Industry's and the Science Research Council's Teaching Company arrangement and the new engineering bursaries scheme.
I should like to pay a tribute to the work of the universities and the polytechnics highlighted by the council in providing courses and training outside their regular degree and diploma work which provide an opportunity for mature managers and workers to obtain the regular updating and retraining which is so necessary. This debate, as I have said, is so important. Our exchanges today will be, I hope, only the beginning of a wider debate. Already
I can inform the House that the Institution of Mechanical Engineers has organised a joint discussion evening with the Institute of Electrical Engineers and the Engineering Employers' Federation on 3rd April to allow the message of this report to be considered across a wide range of industry. No doubt, we shall see further similar initiatives.
My Lords, I say to all noble Lords who have spoken that I shall look carefully at what they have said. This has been a fine debate. I say: "Long may ACARD continue to provide its valuable contribution to what we are doing now!"
5.34 p.m.
Lord GREGSON: My Lords, may I first say how pleased I am that the noble Lord, Lord Peart, in his more usual role, has assured us that the Government are taking this report to heart and that the report has been well received by them. I should like also to thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I think that the debate itself stood up well to the very high standards of this House in the many contributions that were made. I should like particularly to add my congratulations to the two excellent maiden speakers this afternoon. I can only say that their contributions were absolutely on line with the subject I put down in the Motion and I am grateful for their contributions to this debate.
1638
I would also say that they made me envious that I could not go back and make my own maiden speech again. As a last comment, perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I report another apparent shortage of industrialists, scientists and technologists on all the Benches opposite. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

LICENSED PREMISES (EXCLUSION OF CERTAIN PERSONS) BILL
5.36 p.m.
Report received.
Clause 1 [Suspension order]:
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 1:
Clause 1, leave out clause 1 and insert the following new clause:
Exclusion orders
(".—(1) Where a court by or before which a person is convicted of an offence committed on licensed premises is satisfied that in committing that offence he resorted to violence or offered or threatened to resort to violence, the court may, subject to subsection (2) below, make an order (in this Act referred to as an "exclusion order") prohibiting him from entering those premises or any other specified premises, without the express consent of the licensee of the premises or his servant or agent.
(2) An exclusion order may be made either—

(a) in addition to any sentence which is imposed in respect of the offence of which the person is convicted; or

(b) notwithstanding the provisions of sections 2, 7 and 13 of the Powers of Criminal Courts Act 1973 (cases in which probation orders and absolute and conditional discharges may be made, and their effect), in addition to a probation order or an order discharging him absolutely or conditionally; or

(c) notwithstanding the provisions of sections 182, 183, 191, 383, 384 and 392 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 (cases in which probation orders and absolute discharges may be made, and their effect), in addition to a probation order or an order discharging him absolutely;

but not otherwise.
(3) An exclusion order shall have effect for such period, not less than three months or more than two years, as is specified in the order, unless it is terminated under section 2(2) below.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the first Amendment standing

1639
in my name on the Marshalled List. Last week we had a full discussion during the Committee stage of this Bill and I sensed general agreement in all quarters of the Committee that it was a worthwhile Bill and that noble Lords wanted to see it on the Statute Book. A number of Amendments mainly concerned with clarification and precision were accepted by your Lordships without any dissenting voice. We ran into only one difficulty which was in my redrafting of Clause 1. The original Clause 1 was said to be defective in language and my redrafting was said to be equally defective and in need of further amendment. In addition, the Government were not happy with the powers given to magistrates in my then Amendment to make an exclusion order refer either to the premises where the offence was committed or to all premises in the particular licensing district.
Sensing a week ago that noble Lords opposite were as anxious as we were to find common ground so that we could return this Bill whence it came, I then withdrew my Amendment, and since then I have been in touch with the noble Lord, Lord Boston of Faversham, and I hope and believe that together we have found common ground. That common ground is reflected in the Amendment which I now ask your Lordships to consider. It follows in many ways the Amendment that we had before the House last week but the more advice that someone sponsoring a Private Member's Bill seeks—and good advice is always necessary—the more complicated the language of the Bill appears to become.
A close reading of this Amendment will show that it follows very nearly the lines we discussed last week but with three differences. I will mention them briefly. The first is a different scope of an exclusion order which a court may make. Under this draft an exclusion order may prohibit a man who has been convicted of an offence committed on licensed premises from
"entering those premises or any other specified premises".
This leaves the magistrates (if they wish to make such an order at all) with the decision to make the exclusion order, either referring to the one premises where
1640
the offence was committed or to a number of others as well, if they feel this latter has advantage. They are in no way required to make an order which covers all licensed premises in any one licensing district.
I have been told that that could lead to great complications in the centre of big towns where the licensing district may contain a very large number of licensed premises. I feel sure that, even if there are some who would have liked this Bill to go wider, today when time presses if this Bill is to reach the Statute Book, your Lordships will be prepared to accept this common ground.
The second point is in the words:
"without the express consent of the licensee of the premises or his servant or agent".
That is something novel in our draft, but I have been advised that if those words were not there it would be possible for Her Majesty's Government to find themselves hauled before the International Court for a breach of The European Convention on Human Rights; I feel that those saving words are probably better in than that Her Majesty's Government should be at risk in this way.
Thirdly, there is reference to Scotland. We took Scotland out of the Bill last week because I was told that the Bill as drafted would have applied automatically to Scotland. But apparently it does not. Instead, we put in the phrase that it did not refer to Northern Ireland. I have since been told that that advice was wrong. We must be very precise about the reference to Scotland, where the legal position is somewhat different from that in England. Hence, your Lordships will find references to Scotland in the new Clause 1 and in later Amendments. There is nothing in this beyond drafting and being quite sure that it refers in Scotland in the way that we should like. I beg to move.
Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTH: My Lords, I should like to support my noble friend but I cannot understand under the new clause, with the additional wording regarding the consent of the licensees, at which stage that consent is supposed to be given. Is it at the time that an exclusion order is made, listing perhaps the one premises at which the offence was committed or others to which an exclusion order might apply? The way I read the

1641
Amendment, it seems that an offender could have an exclusion placed upon him but present himself at the door of the premises and, if the licensee says: "You can come in", that will be the time. I noted very carefully what my noble friend said, and it would be right for me to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Boston of Faversham, for at an earlier stage I accused him of taking a rather soft option on this matter. It now appears he has been prevailed upon to take a rather harder line, for which I am grateful.
5.43 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, briefly, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, for the remarks that he has made and for explaining this clause. May I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for the observations that he has made. I was not proposing to expand on what the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, said in his introduction to this Amendment. Regarding the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, the reference is to the first part of the proposed new clause where it says:
"… prohibiting him from entering those premises or any other specified premises, without the express consent of the licensee of the premises or his servant or agent".
As he said towards the end of his remarks, that would come into effect on the point at which the person concerned was in the process of entering the premises. That is the position there.
Lord LYELL: My Lords, I wonder whether the House will permit me to ask my noble friend how far spread the suspension order will be implemented? Will it be within one licensing district or within a chain run under the same management as the original public house in which the offence was committed or in respect of which the suspension order was placed? Would the suspension order itself be applicable throughout England and Wales, and possibly parts of Scotland too? Is there any specific limit? Does my noble friend have any specific idea how far or how narrowly the suspension order should be placed?
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, as I understand it, an exclusion order can refer to one licensed premises or to 10 or even
1642
110. What we are doing here is giving magistrates complete discretion. They will not want to attach a list of premises which is so long that it is virtually unenforceable. According to the geography where the offence may have been committed—say in the centre of a big town, a surburban area or a country district—there may be some purpose in putting half a dozen premises on the list as against one.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2 [Penalty for non-compliance with suspension order]:
5.46 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 17, after ("conviction") insert ("or, in Scotland, on conviction in a court of summary jurisdiction").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 2 again is an explanation of how this refers to Scotland. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 22, leave out ("make an order terminating the exclusion order") and insert ("may by order terminate the exclusion order or vary it by deleting the name of any specified premises,").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, a week ago we accepted an Amendment which gave magistrates the power where an exclusion order was broken to vary the exclusion order, let it run or bring it to an end. We have since thought that we ought to add the power that they could vary it, not just bring it to a stop or let it run its full course. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 4:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
Power to expel person from licensed premises
Without prejudice to any other right to expel a person from premises, the licensee of licensed premises or his servant or agent may expel from those premises any person who has entered or whom he reasonably suspects of having entered the premises in breach of an exclusion order; and a constable shall on the demand of the licensee or his servant or agent help to expel from licensed premises any person whom the constable reasonably suspects of having entered in breach of an exclusion order.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a new clause I have been advised that where we have created a new offence it would be correct for us to state the constable's powers and also restate the licensee's powers, because, in the circumstances of a broken exclusion order, his position is somewhat different from that if he just exercises his common law right and says to somebody who comes into his premises: "I am not going to serve you". There are only two words to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. They are in the second half of the Amendment:
"and a constable shall on the demand of the licensee or his servant or agent help to expel from licensed premises"
I am assured that those words "help to" do not mean that, before the constable can do anything effective to help the licensee, the licensee must himself have taken hold of the erring man and attempted to put him out. That would be unfair because the licensee might be an elderly woman or a man not in good health. The phrase "help to" means that the constable will play a real part if able to do so and, if asked to do so by the licensee, will be responsible for seeing that the man leaves the premises. I beg to move.
Lord BOSTON of FAVERSHAM: My Lords, it may be helpful if I add some additional points to underline what the noble Lord has said, particularly in relation to the power to expel a person subject to an exclusion order. This provision follows closely the provisions of Section 174 of the Licensing Act 1964, which enables steps to be taken to remove from licensed premises anyone who is drunken, violent, quarrelsome and disorderly. It therefore has the advantage that both the licensees and the police are familiar with the procedure which will be required in relation to someone who is subject to an exclusion order.
I should also add in further amplification and to underline what the noble Lord has said on this point that the term "help to expel" in relation to the action taken by the police on the demand of a licensee does not imply that licensees themselves are necessarily required to join with the police in physically expelling someone from the premises. There would no doubt be instances where the police would appreciate the physical support of
1644
the licensee in this respect; but he is not obliged to give it as indeed has already been indicated by the noble Lord in moving this Amendment. One can certainly envisage that, in the normal sort of circumstances that are likely to arise, the part that might be played by the licensee would be that when the officer comes, having been summoned to the public house, the licensee would point in the appropriate direction and say: "That's him!" My Lords, I do apologise to noble Lords for pointing in their direction. I intended no disrespect. That is probably the most familiar scene which would arise should any of these unfortunate events occur.
Having said that, I would join with the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, in commending these Amendments to your Lordships. If I am not trespassing too much on your Lordships' sense of order, perhaps I may add a word to what the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, said earlier, and say that I appreciate very much indeed the spirit in which he entered into the discussions. I should like to take this chance of thanking all those concerned.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3 [Supplemental]:
5.52 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, line 2, after first ("premises") insert ("in relation to England and Wales").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Boston, pointed across your Lordships' House, I thought he had come to some arrangement with Black Rod and was going to give us a demonstration of how somebody might be ejected from premises. However, I am glad that is not so. Amendment No. 5, together with Amendment No. 6 which follows it, is directed to the same point, that of making sure that this Bill applies properly to Scotland. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 4, after ("1964)") insert ("and, in relation to Scotland, means premises in respect

1645
of which a licence under the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976, other than an off-sales licence or a licence under Part III of that Act (licences for seamen's canteens) is in force").
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 2, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert ("holder of the licence granted in respect of those premises; and
"specified premises", in relation to an exclusion order, means any licensed premises which the court may specify by name and address in the order.
( ) In the application of section 1 above to Scotland, the reference in subsection (1) of that section to a person's being convicted of an offence shall, in relation to proceedings in a court of summary jurisdiction in which the court, without proceeding to conviction, discharges him absolutely under section 383 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 or makes a probation order under section 384 of that Act, shall be construed as a reference to the court being satisfied that he committed the offence.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 7. The first part of this Amendment follows on the first Amendment, where we now have power to make an exclusion order refer either to the premises where the offence was committed or to any other specified premises. In the interests of clarity, this Amendment defines "specified premises". The second part of Amendment No. 7 is once again a reference to the Scottish situation.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Short title and extent]:
Lord INGLEWOOD Lord INGLEWOOD moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 2, line 14, at end insert ("and this Act, in its application to Scotland, and the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 may be cited together as the Licensing (Scotland) Acts 1976 to 1979.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, again, Amendment No. 8 refers to the application of this Bill to Scotland. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY SERVICE BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to with a privilege Amendment and with one other Amendment: the privilege
1646
Amendment considered and agreed to; the remaining Amendment to be printed.

IPSWICH PORT AUTHORITY BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and referred to the Examiners.
HOUSE OF LORDS' OFFICES
Second Report from the Select Committee made and to be printed.
  MULTI-HANDICAPPED BLIND: RESIDENTIAL ACCOMMODATION
  MULTI-HANDICAPPED BLIND: RESIDENTIAL ACCOMMODATION
  MULTI-HANDICAPPED BLIND: HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION
  MULTI-HANDICAPPED BLIND: HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION
  SPINAL INJURY UNITS: ODSTOCK AND STANMORE
  SPINAL INJURY UNITS: ODSTOCK AND STANMORE
  PARAPLEGICS: CARE AND TREATMENT
  PARAPLEGICS: CARE AND TREATMENT
  EEC INSTITUTIONS: SECONDMENT CONDITIONS
  EEC INSTITUTIONS: SECONDMENT CONDITIONS
  EEC BUDGET: UK CONTRIBUTION
  EEC BUDGET: UK CONTRIBUTION
  LAW OF LIMITATION: RECOMMENDATIONS
  LAW OF LIMITATION: RECOMMENDATIONS