Sitting of 16 March 1979

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

NORTHERN IRELAND (BENNETT REPORT)
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Secretary Mason—statement.
Mr. Fitt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I have your guidance on what I regard as a serious and important matter? In a few moments the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will be making a statement on the Bennett report. The deliberations of the Bennett committee and recent developments in Northern Ireland are allied to the case of Dr. Irwin, the police surgeon who alleged that there was brutality in the holding centre at Castlereagh in Northern Ireland.
Since Dr. Irwin made his original comments on television, he has been subjected to a particularly vicious smear campaign on the grounds of his qualifications, the state of his mental health and other matters. On the front page of The Daily Telegraph today a story carries the headline:
" Rape case bitterness denied by RUC critic."
The story was written by Mr. Gerald Bartlett, in Belfast. The opening sentence begins:
" Suggestions, apparently by Government officials in Whitehall, that the police surgeon making brutality allegations…is ' bitter and angry ' "
because his wife was raped by two former members of the RUC. I regard that as a vicious smear, particularly if it emanated from the Northern Ireland Office.
Can this matter be debated today? If it cannot, may I give notice to you, Mr. Speaker, that I shall raise it at the earliest possible opportunity on Monday? I believe that the sinister way in which the story has appeared this morning is tied up with those who are in charge of and employed in the Northern Ireland Office.
Mr. Speaker: I take note of the hon. Gentleman's statement that he will seek to
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raise the matter at the earliest possible moment. But this morning we can deal only with the Secretary of State's statement.
Mr. Fitt: I give warning that I shall raise this under Standing Order No. 9 on Monday, which would be the earliest possible moment.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will need to send a written note to my office before 12 noon on Monday and I shall consider his application.
Mr. McNamara: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), but I should not like to think that it will stop the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from commenting on the various matters raised in the article in The Daily Telegraph. It has severe implications for the character of an individual who has been much in the news recently. It also has implications for the Northern Ireland Office which throw doubt upon the quality of what we might hear later. This is a serious matter. I hope that what you have said, Mr. Speaker, will not prevent the Secretary of State from making an adequate comment upon this terrible article.
Mr. Speaker: I expect that it would be of advantage to the House to hear the statement. Most of the hon. Member's remarks could probably be made during questions on the statement.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to ask for your guidance. Will it be out of order for the relevant matters which are under discussion in Northern Ireland to be referred to on the statement by the Secretary of State? These matters affect all sections of the community, not just one. I put it on record that Dr. Irwin happens to be a Protestant. In the interests of justice for everybody, the whole matter should be ventilated. There should be an opportunity for us to debate all matters which are relevant to the Bennett report.
Mr. Speaker: I remind the House that this matter could be raised during a debate next week. The business statement indicated yesterday that there would be a debate on Wednesday on the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1976 (Continuance) Order. My inclination

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is that it will be in order to refer to these matters then. We cannot deal with the Secretary of State's statement until we have heard it.
Mr. Stallard: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the seriousness of the allegations contained in the newspaper article, and the fact that it is not directly related to the statement that the Secretary of State is about to make, could the Secretary of State be asked to make a further statement, following his statement on the Bennett report, about the allegations contained in the article and the very serious insinuations against this honourable man?
Mr. Kilfedder: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the very serious allegation made in The Daily Telegraph in respect of the Northern Ireland Office officials, surely the House is entitled to expect an immediate statement from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland denying this smear campaign against Dr. Irwin, bearing in mind that the Provisional IRA has engaged for the last 10 years in a smear campaign against the security forces and against the Northern Ireland Office.
Mr. Speaker: It is not for me to ask the Secretary of State to make a statement on anything else. We shall have to wait to see what is in the statement.
Mr. Fitt: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Unhelpful as it is, and arranged as it was, to have this debate on such an important issue on a Friday, when most Members have gone home, could you instruct the Secretary of State to make the Bennett report available to hon. Members so that they may know what we are talking about? Obviously he has an embargo on it in his office to prevent us from even looking at the document.
Mr. William Hamilton: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the Secretary of State sought further information from his departmental officials and came to you at, say, 1 p.m. today, or at some convenient hour, would it then be possible for him to make a statement on this matter so that he might be cross-examined on it immediately?
Mr. Speaker: It is very difficult, when there is a Private Member's motion before
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the House, to take the time of a private Member for an issue on which other Members quite clearly feel very deeply. But I suggest to the House that our best course now is to hear the statement by the Secretary of State.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Roy Mason): Before I make the statement, I should like, because of the questions which have been raised, to let the House know, first, that I am not responsible for rumours and speculation in the press. Secondly, I have been so perturbed about the allegations which have been made about Dr. Irwin that I have made an urgent check this morning, and I can assure the House that there is no trace at all of Northern Ireland Office involvement in this matter.
Following a report by Amnesty International last June, and a subsequent suggestion by the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, I set up a committee under the chairmanship of His Honour Judge H. G. Bennett, QC, with the following terms of reference:
" To examine police procedures and practice in Northern Ireland relating to the interrogation of persons suspected of scheduled offences; to examine the operation of the present procedures for dealing with complaints relating to the conduct of police in the course of the process of interrogation; and to report and make recommendations."
The committee's report is being published this morning as a Command Paper. I should like to express the thanks of the Government to Judge Bennett and his colleagues for the heavy burden of work they have undertaken and the valuable report they have produced.
I shall want to consult the Chief Constable, the Police Authority, the Police Complaints Board and other interested parties on the detailed implementation of the committee's recommendations. But, subject to that consultation, I can say at once that the Government accept the broad conclusions of the committee and endorse the approach it has adopted in framing its detailed recommendations.
The committee accepts the basic validity and importance of interrogation by police officers as a means of detecting crime.
The committee records that its own examination of medical evidence revealed cases in which injuries, whatever their

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precise cause, were not self-inflicted and were sustained in police custody. But there is no suggestion that this is indicative of a regular or widespread practice; and the committee acknowledges that it did not have the police officers' account in all the cases it examined.
Arrangements will be made for the committee's material in these cases to be considered by the independent Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ire-land. The House will, I am sure, share my own view that one case of ill treatment is one case too many. The RUC is required to operate strictly within the law, and neither I nor the Chief Constable will condone ill treatment in any form.
The committee's recommendations for improvement in the supervisory, medical and other arrangements relating to interrogation are designed
" to ensure as far as possible that ill treatment of prisoners cannot take place ".
That must certainly be our aim.
On complaints procedure, the committee has made a number of important and useful recommendations about RUC practice and about the role of the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland, the Police Authority and the Police Complaints Board. In my consultations on complaints procedure, I hope to move forward generally with the committee's objectives in mind.
I aim to announce within two or three months the precise action which will be taken on all the committee's detailed recommendations.
I do, however, immediately accept the committee's recommendation that closed circuit television should be installed in interview rooms, and also the recommendation that terrorist suspects should have right of access to a solicitor after 48 hours and after each succeeding 48 hours in custody. I shall now look to the Chief Constable to examine how these and other detailed recommendations should be implemented.
The committee recognises that no other police force in the United Kingdom is called on to deal with so much violent crime in such unpromising circumstances as the Royal Ulster Constabulary; that the normal methods of crime detection are hampered by special difficulties; and that there is a co-ordinated and extensive
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campaign to discredit the RUC and its officers.
I pay tribute to the courage and dedication of the RUC and I am confident that action on the committee's recommendations will help to enhance the reputation and effectiveness of the force.
Mr. Neave: Is the Secretary of State aware that we join with him in thanking Judge Bennett for an important review of police procedures on interrogation, and that the Conservative Opposition hope to discuss the recommendations with the Chief Constable next week?
Is the Secretary of State also aware that we welcome his decision to refer to the Director of Public Prosecutions the evidence taken by the committee of injuries sustained during police detention? Although it seems likely that only a few officers could be involved in ill treatment, and remembering the provocation and danger to which the RUC is constantly exposed, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the ill treatment of suspects is totally indefensible and damages the prestige and effectiveness of the police as a whole?
Will the Secretary of State also tell the House what medical evidence Dr. Irwin gave to the Police Authority and to the committee, since there appears to be a dispute on the facts between him and the Chief Constable?
Finally, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we join with him in his tribute to the dedication and courage of the RUC, to whose achievements the people of Northern Ireland owe so much?
Mr. Mason: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I am sure that the RUC will appreciate the respect with which he regards it and its esteem and credibility in the Province. I agree with him absolutely and clearly that we cannot condone ill treatment, whether it be in Gough, Castlereagh or any other holding centre in Northern Ireland.
I reiterate that any information that Judge Bennett has in regard to which he has indicated that there may be cases in which persons have injuries, not self-inflicted, which have been obtained in custody should do to the Director of Public Prosecutions. The reason why I feel strongly about that is that the Bennett committee was set up as a result of the

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Amnesty International report. At the time, there were many unsubstantiated allegations against unnamed police officers, and I asked Amnesty International to furnish the Director of Public Prosecutions with witnesses' names and medical evidence so that the matter could be thoroughly investigated and, if necessary, a course of action taken against those responsible for the acts.
I then asked Amnesty International to do exactly the same for the Bennett committee, via the DPP, but Amnesty International has not followed this through. I am therefore asking Judge Bennett, with the information that he may have at hand, to do what I requested initially of Amnesty International, and to place it before the DPP so that he can examine it. Then, if there are cases for prosecution, they will be pursued.
Regarding Dr. Irwin, I do not want to get involved in the squabbles which have been taking place between doctors in the Province. It is obvious that they can make varying numbers of allegations. If they have allegations to make, they should be submitted to the Chief Constable, who is bound to submit them to the DPP for investigation.
We should recognise that medical officers at Castlereagh examine prisoners, with their consent, when they go in and when they come out. When prisoners leave Castlereagh to go to a police station to be charged, a different doctor will examine them. En route from Castlereagh to the police station prisoners can inflict injuries upon themselves and a doctor can have a different record of allegations from those at Castlereagh.
In his report, Judge Bennett revealed that he had evidence that prisoners had inflicted injuries upon themselves en route from the holding centre to the place where they were to be charged. Indeed, the Chief Constable now has to ensure that there are cellular units inside the vans which convey prisoners to the police stations so that they cannot inflict injuries upon themselves. I do not want to get involved in the disputes about the numbers of allegations, because they will vary from doctor to doctor.
Judge Bennett examined 200 cases from four independent sources—forensic medical officers, Castlereagh medical offi-
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cers, medical officers at police stations and individual general practitioners. If there is any information which indicates ill treatment, I hope that it will be followed through.
Mr. Fitt: My right hon. Friend said that the Bennett committee was set up in response to the allegations that had been made by Amnesty International. At that time my own party—the SDLP—and other major political parties in Northern Ireland clearly stated that the committee's terms of reference were so restricted—indeed, the committee reports that its terms of reference were so restricted—as to prevent it from speaking to people who had made allegations that they were subjected to police brutality.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that according to a Belfast newspaper last night, we have arrived at the bizarre situation that the Police Authority in Northern Ireland, which is allegedly in control of the Chief Constable and police forces in the Province, has sent various reports of allegations of brutality to the Chief Constable and the police forces, that it got absolutely no response, and was actually thinking of making a report to Amnesty International so that some action might be taken?
Does my right hon. Friend realise that his defence of police procedures, tactics and personalities and his attempt to smear with scurrilous rumour and innuendo those who have reservations about the report will inflict more pain on himself and the Northern Ireland Office than could be caused by any Republican prisoner?
I should like to put a direct question to my right hon. Friend. We have had the Bennett report in our hands for only a few minutes. I know from other sources that it is full of damning indictments against police procedures. Hon. Members have not had time to read it. As we have had the report for only a few minutes, and in view of my total disbelief and that of many people in Northern Ireland of what is in the statement, will my right hon. Friend take the only course that is open to him now and arrange to have a full-scale debate on the Floor of the House next Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, not when he knows that the House will be

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sparsely attended? The only thing which will satisfy people in Northern Ireland will be a full scale debate on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Mason: First, I am sorry that we have to make the statement on Friday.
Mr. Fitt: My right hon. Friend is not a bit sorry. He arranged it.
Mr. Mason: I am sorry that we have to make the statement—
Mr. Fitt: It could have been made yesterday.
Mr. Mason: —on Friday. But, due to the leak which took place during the week and the unbalanced presentation, I felt that the matter had to be rectified and a balanced picture put before the House, together with publication of the report as quickly as possible. I could not afford to wait a further three or four days until next week; I had to take the decision to bring it forward as fast as possible. We should recognise that many Government Departments are involved in a report of this kind. They all have a part to play. The Foreign Office, on human rights, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General have to be consulted. We cannot rush publications and presentations as fast as people outside are led to believe.
I am sorry that the SDLP did not participate in providing evidence to the Bennett committee. I think that that would have helped considerably. Members of the SDLP can now see that there has been no cover-up. Judge Bennett has done a substantial, workmanlike job and has, indeed, looked at some of the allegations about which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has been concerned for so long. The Police Authority has been concerned, but it has given its evidence to the Bennett committee. Most of its references will be seen in the report.
I have never been and shall refuse to be involved in any smear of any people or organisations. I have never personalised in any previous job I have held in the House, and I shall not personalise in this job.
The committee was set up to look into and to report on improved procedures and practices of interrogation. If we accept the major proposals, which I have done today, and those which will flow from the
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examination in the next two months with the interested parties, I believe that we shall make it so difficult for ill treatment to occur that our system of interrogation will be in the forefront of systems of the world.
Mr. Craig: I join in the congratulations to Judge Bennett and his colleagues. I also congratulate the Secretary of State on the prompt publication of this report in the difficult situation which developed. If he had failed to bring it out today, there would have been continued speculation of a very unbalanced nature which could only have been harmful to the whole situation.
I listened to the statement with the greatest interest. Though not having had the advantage of studying the report, I feel encouraged by the Secretary of State's approach. We need time to study the report and I hope that we shall be given time to study it. I am relieved that the Government do not propose to rush into hasty decisions. The importance of interrogation is rightly recognised as a means of detecting crime. We must not do anything which would undermine that useful weapon.
I have for some time felt that the right of access to solicitors needed consideration. Looking at the matter from a lawyer's point of view, I think that 48 hours is a reasonable interval. But, having expressed my own opinion, I must also say that experts in interrogation may wonder whether that interval is satisfactory.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he was called to ask a question, not to make a speech on this matter, because we are not debating it now.
Mr. Craig: I was going on to ask the Secretary of State whether, having undertaken to introduce the 48-hour period, he would keep it under review, bearing in mind that other experts on the legal situation, even here in London, think that a five-day period would be justifiable in England. Therefore, I ask him to keep the matter under review.
Regarding the use of television cameras and knowing that that suggestion was made on the initiative of the Chief Constable, will the Secretary of State nevertheless ensure that they are used in a very professional way? The television cameras

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must be capable of giving a complete picture of the entire interview period.
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the statement in the report that there were cases where it was evident that injuries were not self-inflected does not mean that those injuries were improperly inflicted on prisoners by the police? There are circumstances, such as a rumpus, where the police have to use force to restore order.
In any consideration that the Secretary of State gives to the matter, will he put first and foremost in his mind the need for the law to protect the citizen from the criminal, particularly the terrorist criminal, and for the police to have the support of the entire community? In this respect, the decision to refer the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions is to be welcomed. May we expect prompt action by the DPP?
Mr. Mason: Once the information available to Judge Bennett is provided to the DPP, I must leave it in his hands. I shall certainly watch closely the operation of the suggestion about the admissibility of solicitors in interview rooms when we start the cycle of every 48 hours.
As for closed circuit television, that idea was mooted by the Chief Constable at the outset of the Bennett report. Since then the Chief Constable has had a working party looking at how the technical and operational procedures might be carried out and to what extent he would want extra uniformed personnel to watch the operations. As soon as the Chief Constable has considered this report, I hope that we shall make good progress on the question of closed circuit television.
In regard to the protection of the civilian, what we must try to prove to the nation, and to people abroad, is that as far as possible there cannot be ill treatment of prisoners in Northern Ireland. That is the aim, and by adopting these procedures we shall go as far as is humanly possible to prove that ill treatment cannot happen. By doing that, we shall kill and defeat the Provisionals' propaganda campaign of allegations of ill treatment in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Freud: We join all parties in the House in praising the Royal Ulster Constabulary's courage and dedication in
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an operation where one side has to be seen to be humane while the other side is not handicapped by that sort of directive.
I should like to ask the Secretary of State four questions. First, has he thought of co-ordinating the human rights organisations in Northern Ireland?
Secondly, the Police Complaints Board would appear to have completed its first year of working in August 1978, and I wonder whether the Secretary of State could explain when we might get a report on that first year's work.
Thirdly, as the Bennett report has been out for some time, can the right hon. Gentleman explain how democracy or parliamentary efficiency is served by ordering the Vote Office to sit on the report, so that Members who came in at 10.30 this morning were told, rather shamefacedly, that the report was in the Vote Office but that it was not to be given to Members until after the statement had been made?
Finally, in view of what the Secretary of State has said about no blame attaching to any member of the Northern Ireland Office in regard to the disgraceful article in today's edition of The Daily Telegraph, what action does the right hon Gentleman propose to take against The Daily Telegraph for publishing what it did publish?
Mr. Mason: I shall have to peruse the article with care to see whether there is any action that I can take. What I can say is that there is no inkling whatsoever from my Department—especially the Northern Ireland Office in Belfast—that it was involved in this. I should be hurt and ashamed if anyone in the Department had been.
I have despatched a copy of the report to the chairman and secretary of the Standing Committee on Human Rights, and I hope that they will be involved in the discussions that will flow from the recommendations. The Policy Authority, the Police Complaints Board and the DPP are the main people involved. I do not know offhand when the Police Complaints Board will be issuing its report, but I shall certainly look into that matter, and if it can be speeded up I shall do that.
I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman and the House have felt offended about the

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release of the report. I am merely carrying out the usual custom and practice. I asked my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House if it was available at 11 o'clock and he said"Yes ". I thought that was the agreed procedure.
Mr. McNamara: With regard to the article in The Daily Telegraph, it is important that my right hon. Friend should ensure that a full inquiry is made into how it came to be in the press, whether it was from his office or not, because serious allegations are made about Government officials.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing the question of the Bennett report before the House today, despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has said. This is surely in response to the pressures that were put on my right hon. Friend the Minister of State on Monday. That the matter should have been brought forward so quickly is to be appreciated.
However, there are some matters arising out of the report which are of considerable seriousness. My right hon. Friend must accept that some of the conclusions of the report are a serious reflection upon the RUC and some of its members. To that extent, they represent a justification for some of the things that have been said about the RUC and the interrogation procedures in Castlereagh. To call it a victory for purveyors of violence would be putting it too strongly, but to a certain extent it gives substance to what they are saying.
I refer my right hon. Friend to appendix I of the Bennett report, where we find that of the 2,814 people detained under the emergency provisions Act only 35 per cent. had charges preferred against them. In Castlereagh 37 per cent. of about 1,500 people who were detained had charges preferred against them. This shows a degree of police surveillance and harassment, I suggest, that supports many of the allegations about the use of these powers in Northern Ireland.
Many of the people who have been convicted have been convicted as a result of their own confessions. Some of them may be people who were detained and who are being investigated as a result of Judge Bennett's report and my right hon. Friend's decision to refer them to the
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DPP. But it is important to ensure that it is appreciated that there has been a psychological advantage to the forces of violence. My right hon. Friend must move swiftly to examine all these allegations and to consider the position of people who have had confessions used against them in this way. All their cases should be re-examined very carefully indeed to see whether these people should be behind bars.
Mr. Mason: Yes, of course I shall. I reiterate that I am disturbed about The Daily Telegraph article, and I shall certainly look into it.
It is quite clear that the figures in the appendix show that there are large numbers of people going through Castlereagh custody centre. It is the main holding centre for prisoners in Northern Ireland. Consequently, that is bound to be highlighted in the report.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara) touched on the question of confessions. When people go to the Diplock court, usually the main core of the prosecution's case is based upon a confession. If it can be proved that a confession has been extracted under duress, or that there may have been ill treatment involved in extracting the confession, the core of the case fails. Twenty-five such cases have not been admitted in the courts and those concerned have then had the right to take civil action against the police.
I do not want my hon. Friend to get the report out of balance. I draw the attention of hon. Members, when they have time to read the report, to paragraph 163, which mentions five categories of complaint. First, it mentions complaints of ill treatment where there was no physical evidence. The second category is fabrications. The third category refers to self-inflicted injuries, and the fourth to marks on bodies that could have been made by others or self-inflicted. The fifth category in the report refers to injuries which were inflicted by someone other than the prisoner himself. That is the one paragraph out of more than 400 that mentions that particular point. It says where"the evidence indicates "—that is all.
The report stresses that these cases have not been tested or elucidated by

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cross-examination. Judge Bennett also states that
" prisoners may lawfully have to be physically restrained or…officers may have to defend themselves."
But no doubt, in this class of case, the injuries were not self-inflicted but were sustained during detention. Those are the cases that are worthy of examination.
Mr. Kilfedder: Will the Secretary of State accept from me that all those who have been bereaved in Northern Ireland or have been mutilated as a result of obscene atrocities committed over the past 10 years would wish me to convey through the Secretary of State their tribute to the RUC, which, apart from some isolated cases of misconduct, has brought down on its head the full anger of the Provisional IRA because of the success of police investigations?
As there is this systematic attempt by the Provisional IRA to smear and discredit the RUC and other forces of law and order in Northern Ireland, and as the courts and the Bennett committee confirm that there have been cases of self-inflicted injury by Provisional IRA prisoners, will the right hon. Gentleman accept from me that the sooner the report's recommendations are implemented, the better, in order to refute the Provisional IRA propaganda?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also accept my thanks to Judge Bennett and his committee for the excellent work which seemingly they have done? Not having been able to read the report in full, I can make no other comment.
Mr. Mason:I must convey the thanks of the hon. Gentleman and those whom he represents in Northern Ireland to the members of the RUC. I do so because the Bennett report, and indeed the Amnesty International report, did not tarnish or besmirch the uniformed members of the RUC. They come out of this report absolutely clean in every way.
Mr. Fitt: They do.
Mr. Mason: But, in fairness to those in the Province, Judge Bennett makes it clear, and states quite emphatically, that the para-militaries in Northern Ireland are bent on destroying the existing constitution and order of society by violent
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means. There is abundant evidence of a major campaign to discredit the police both at home and abroad—and mainly on allegations, not proof.
Mr. Stallard: My right hon. Friend will be aware that I have not read the report yet, but I keenly await it. I shall reserve comment and judgment on it until such time as we have a debate.
Is my right hon. Friend aware—he must be—that I certainly do not have to defend the Social Democratic and Labour Party in this Chamber? It has a Member who is perfectly capable of doing that for himself. However, I should like to bring to my right hon. Friend's attention the SDLP's long-standing commitments, shared by hon. Members on both sides of the House, to the establishment of a police force in Northern Ireland that will attract the support and confidence of the entire population of the Six Counties. That matter has been raised many times.
Is my right hon. Friend further aware—I must say this, because I do not have the impression that he is—of the difficulties of people, certainly from the minority community, in coming forward with evidence on allegations and so on? In my judgment, and with my knowledge of the situation, that might account for some of the difficulties of the SDLP and Amnesty International in providing the kind of evidence that he complains he has not had.
Finally, will my right hon. Friend make available to the House—I return to the original point of order raised this morning—the proof that he says he has that there has been no leak from the Northern Ireland Office, as outlined in the article in this morning's edition of The Daily Telegraph?
Mr. Mason: I cannot keep going on about The Daily Telegraph. I have already stated quite clearly what I think about it. My hon. Friend and members of the SDLP must now recognise that the Royal Ulster Constabulary is an impartial force. It has risen in esteem and credibility throughout the Province. The way that it dealt with the Action Council strike and the Shankill butchers, and the way in which it is dealing with the IRA, must lead everyone who is objective about this matter to the conclusion that the RUC is doing a job as good as any police force in the world can do in the present

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circumstances. It is doing it magnificently well, and it is gathering the support of the whole Province.
I must remind my hon. Friend, as indeed I must remind many others who take on the campaign of allegations, that they are talking about allegations. There is a major campaign by the Provisional IRA based on allegations. I want the evidence, and so does the DPP. Amnesty International did not furnish it. Therefore, I hope that if Judge Bennett has any evidence it can be properly, imparitally and independently examined by the DPP.
Mr. Goodhart: Does the Secretary of State recognise that our interrogators in Northern Ireland already have to cope with more restrictions on such matters as time available to question suspects and so on than are imposed on interrogators in most other liberal democracies, such as Holland? We are all anxious to eliminate all cases of physical violence, but will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that it is not his intention to tilt the balance still further against the many skilful and sympathetic interrogators who are trying to protect the community as a whole?
Mr. Mason: I recognise that Northern Ireland is ahead of many of the prison systems in the world. Indeed, every prisoner who goes to Castlereagh or any of the holding centres is entitled to a medical examination at the outset and a medical examination when he leaves. Uniquely, all prisoners are entitled to call for their own general practitioner for a medical examination, although I must say that regularly 40 per cent. of them refuse to have a medical examination at all. There are obvious reasons why.
Judge Bennett is suggesting tightening the procedures of interrogation. Indeed, he suggests a code of conduct for the interrogators: how many officers should be involved in the interrogation process, the length of time in any one interview, the suggestion that the officers themselves should be recognised, and so on. Therefore, in fact, following up the detailed recommendations, the procedures will be tightened.
Mr. Litterick: Notwithstanding the revolting attempt to impugn Dr. Irwin's integrity and blacken his name, has my
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right hon. Friend taken note of the fact that on Monday his Minister of State advised the House that Dr. Irwin had made a number of reports of what he regarded as at least suspect cases of violence inflicted on prisoners over a period which went back as far as 1975? Have any charges against police officers resulted from those reports submitted by Dr. Irwin? Have there been any convictions in those cases?
Mr. Mason: I do not know whether they refer to the Dr. Irwin allegations and the examination by the Chief Constable and then the DPP. But there have been prosecutions of police officers—if my memory serves me right, 15 of them—and damages have been paid where the complainant has felt that there has been reason for that to be done.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the Secretary of State take it from me that it is generally welcomed in Northern Ireland today that there has been a statement at the first possible opportunity? However, it is to be regretted that the report was not available to hon. Members before his statement. But we understand the procedures of the House.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the press lobby in Great Britain was given prior copies of the report but that they were refused to the press lobby for Northern Ireland, with the result that hon. Members from Northern Ireland could not be informed what was in it? Does he not think that when it is released to the press lobby of Great Britain it should also be made available to the press lobby of Northern Ireland, as it really concerns Northern Ireland?
Will the Secretary of State also make clear to the House that the vast majority of decent people, Protestant or Roman Catholic, support the security forces and do not wish to see those forces discredited? Will he also make clear that Members of Parliament and public representatives have a duty when allegations are made to ensure that those allegations are brought to the proper quarter and are investigated so that the credibility of the RUC can be maintained?
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the way this matter has been handled—namely, by the Chief Constable making an ex parte statement on television and

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refusing to be questioned about it, and also inviting Dr. Irwin to a cup of tea and then tape recording what was said without asking him to produce the file—is the proper way to investigate this subject?
We welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has assured the House that the Northern Ireland Office has had no part in this scurrilous campaign. Will he assure the House that he will investigate the matter? There has been an allegation that an SAS non-commissioned officer raped Dr. Irwin's wife. These are serious allegations and must be investigated so that this campaign may be laid to rest once and for all.
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there will be a full inquiry into this whole matter of allegation and counter-allegation so that the matter may be brought into the open to enable the people of Northern Ireland to know where the truth lies?
Mr. Mason: The object of the Bennett inquiry is to ensure that such allegations will rapidly reduce in number. Once closed circuit television is installed, those concerned can be observed at any time, and that will remove the possibility of ill treatment. That is particularly relevant if the recommendation suggesting that a senior uniformed officer should be in the holding centre able to make observations is adopted. The prime aim of Bennett is to kill completely the allegation campaign by tightening these procedures and by ensuring that ill treatment cannot take place. I repeat that I shall look into the question of the smear in The Daily Telegraph.
Let me turn to the subject of press releases. This matter is not within my province. I understand that the normal lobby system operated and that releases were made. Correspondents in the House who represent the press of Northern Ireland are involved in that system. I repeat that this is not a matter for me. It is a matter for the custom and practice of the House, and I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to what has been said.
Mrs. Wise: Does the Secretary of State accept that the best recruiting help which can be given to the Provisional IRA is
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for there to be a system of interrogation by the security forces such as those described by Dr. Irwin and set out in the report? Why does my right hon. Friend appear to understate the importance of other categories as well as category 5, mentioned in paragraph 163? As I was called to speak in this exchange a little late, I have had the opportunity to read a little of this report which had been withheld from us. Does my right hon. Friend accept that category 4 is also important, being the category in which injuries may either have been self-inflicted or inflicted by others? The report says that there are cases in which it was clear to experienced forensic officers that injuries had been inflicted by others. Why did my right hon. Friend mention only category 5?
Will my right hon. Friend deal with the matter of confessions, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara)? In his reply, the Secretary of State dealt only with those cases which fell when they were dealt with in the courts. My hon. Friend was referring to those people who had actually been put behind bars on the basis of confessions extracted as a result of interrogation.
Will my right hon. Friend also explain why the Police Complaints Board, set up on 1 September 1977, has been able to deal only recently with interrogation matters, apparently because of the requirements relating to the security of documents? What does that mean?
Mr. Mason: I doubt whether I shall be able to get through all the points raised by my hon. Friend.
The paragraph relating to category 4 indicates that such cases are doubtful and not easily proven. Category 5 means that injuries could be self-inflicted, or that they were not self-inflicted while people were in custody and should be examined. Judge Bennett is putting that point fairly to the public. I remind my hon. Friend that the Provisional IRA receives a boost as a result of many allegations, but we must ensure that those allegations are put to the test and that they have to be proven. The problem is that many of these allegations never go through the due processes to prove whether they are valid.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call the three hon. Gentlemen who have been rising to their feet.
Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: Does the Secretary of State agree that perhaps the most worrying aspect of this matter is that we had to have the Amnesty International report, plus allegations in the media, before the Bennett inquiry was set up? Does not this suggest that the police investigation of complaints machinery has not worked as effectively as it should? I think I am right in saying that Judge Bennett makes that point. Will the right hon. Gentleman implement that part of the report as a matter of great urgency?
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in future no interrogation will take place unless the closed circuit television system, once installed, is working?
When the right hon. Gentleman said that we must wait two to three months for him to give the House his attitude to these recommendations, may I ask whether he was referring to the implementation of those recommendations or to a further Government statement on the report?
Mr. Mason: I shall try to report to the House at the end of the two or three months which it will take to go through the whole list of detailed recommendations made by Judge Bennett and his committee. Obviously there will have to be consultations with the DPP, the Police Authority, the Police Complaints Board, the Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights and others.
In regard to Amnesty International, I hope the hon. Gentleman appreciates that when the organisation went in 1977 to the Province it was in the wake of a major allegation campaign. Yet at the end of that investigation Amnesty International did not produce to the DPP one witness, plus medical evidence, to prove that the allegations were valid and that ill treatment had occurred. In the light of Amnesty International's report, the Chief Constable called for the setting up of the Bennett committee and I established that body. Therefore, the police have been willing throughout to have allegations examined.
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We shall have to see how the closed circuit television system operates. The Bennett committee contains recommendations proposing that interrogations should not take place during the night. The recommendations seek to limit the hours during which interrogation can take place. That will have a bearing on whether television is used.
Mr. Tebbit: Does the Secretary of State agree that the best way to dispose once and for all of the Dr. Irwin aspect is for the doctor to be reminded that he has recourse to law against The Daily Telegraph if his reputation has been smeared, and that this is not a matter in which the right hon. Gentleman should become involved?
Secondly, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is no police force anywhere in the world that has the support of the criminals against whom it operates or of the political allies who tag along with them?
Thirdly, does he agree that, although the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara) is excited about the fact that only 35 per cent. of those taken to Castlereagh were subsequently charged, he would have been even more excited if 100 per cent. of those taken to that place had been charged? It would be interesting to know what would be the right figure in that respect.
Finally, will the Secretary of State, for the benefit of those who will only read reports of these proceedings and who will not perhaps see the full Bennett report, say a little more about paragraph 163 and define the types of injuries about which he has spoken? There is an impression that there are only self-inflicted injuries and injuries improperly inflicted by the police. Will he refer to the other categories—such as those inflicted by other prisoners and those properly inflicted by the police in the course of restraining the violent criminals with whom they have to deal?
Mr. Mason: I was concerned about The Daily Telegraph report relating to Dr. Irwin although the Northern Ireland Office was not mentioned in it. Secondly, I recognise that the RUC operates in difficult circumstances. The regular campaign to undermine the stability, effectiveness and efficiency of the RUC has stretched

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over three years. It has so far failed. Amnesty International and the Bennett report leave the reputation of the RUC uniformed branch completely untarnished. There are cases of fabrication and self-inflicted injury amongst the categories of complaint, and they make up by far the largest number of complaints against the police.
Mrs. Wise: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Before raising this matter, I allowed my right hon. Friend to answer the question for the sake of clarity. But when the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) referred to criminals and their political allies, did you notice, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Member for Peters-field (Mr. Mates) waved to the Labour Benches and said"They are "? I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether that is a proper reference to these Benches. Through you, I suggest that the hon. Member for Petersfield repeats that allegation outside the House.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) did not make a specific reference. He said"and their political allies ". They may be anywhere. If the hon. Member for Petersfield (Mr. Mates) made any gesture or comment, I did not see or hear him.
Mrs. Wise: He did.
Mr. Speaker: Order. That might be his opinion, but it is not for me to rule on that.
Mr. Anthony Grant: Will the Secretary of State tell his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that it is not the proper way to conduct our affairs if in the middle of his statement we have to rush out to the Vote Office to collect a report? Secondly, as the Bennett report found abundant evidence of a co-ordinated and extensive campaign to discredit the police and destroy their reputation at home and abroad, did he say that that would be further investigated by the Government? Will his Department and the Government as a whole investigate the extent of that co-ordination in countries outside Northern Ireland, and keep the House fully informed?
Mr. Mason: The major campaign of the past three years against the RUC has also tried to impair its operational efficiency.
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That has been part of the Provisional IRA's task. Evidence has been given to Bennett that the political bosses of the Provisional IRA have specifically instructed their people on how to register complaints in order to try to bog down the machinery. I do not know to what extent that has come from or spread abroad. On the report, I shall see that my right hon. Friend is informed.
Mr. Fitt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At the commencement of this morning's proceedings, I raised a point of order on the report in The Daily Telegraph. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has since denied on two or three occasions his involvement in the smear tactics that have been used against Dr. Irwin. Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, and is the Secretary of State aware, that senior officers of the Royal Ulster Constabulary are in the courts this morning speaking to senior members of the Bar and other counsel and calling into question the mental state of Dr. Irwin? What action can be taken to instruct my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to get the RUC to desist from that?
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I cannot help the hon. Member.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
Mr. Speaker: By leave of the House, I Shall put together the Questions on both motions relating to statutory instruments.
Ordered,
That the Alcoholic Liquors (Amendment of Enactments Relating to Strength and to Units of Measurements) Order 1979 (S.I., 1979, No. 241) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
That the Value Added Tax (Aids for the Disabled) Order 1979 (S.I, 1979, No. 245) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Snape.]

TRADE UNIONS
12.16 p.m.
Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: I beg to move,
That this House, being of the opinion that the extent of the powers, privileges and immunities now granted by law to trade unions is excessive and incompatible with the general interest and unity of the British nation, believing that the organisation of many trade unions is undemocratic and unresponsive to the needs

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of their members, and being convinced that the present capability of certain trade unions to endanger life, to deprive citizens arbitrarily of their livelihood and to inflict hardship and misery upon the general public with impunity is unacceptable in a modern democratic state, therefore calls upon the Government to present legislative proposals designed to encourage the development of trade unions democratically controlled by their members, independent of political parties and operating within a fair and balanced framework of law.
One of the advantages of coming first in the ballot for Private Members' motions is the near certainty that one will be called, but there were times earlier today when I thought that the House would be talked out on another subject. It also means that I do not have the agony of most Back Benchers in seeking to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, nor do I need to be as brief as I normally am.
I hope that we can discuss the subject without the usual parrot cries about union-bashing and seeking a confrontation with the trade unions. It is a subject that raises problems well known to hon. Members on both sides of the House. I know personally many members of the Parliamentary Labour Party, and certain of them share my anxieties about the extent of trade union immunity. I therefore hope that we can discuss the matter impartially and seek to serve the general national interest.
I asked the Government whether they had any legislative proposals in this respect, and in a written answer yesterday I was told by the Minister of State, Department of Employment that they did not. So we know where we stand. They do not propose to take any action to right the wrongs and remedy the injustices that are so patently exposed in the industrial actions of the last few weeks and of which every citizen in the country is aware.
The decline in Britain's prosperity has been caused by a large number of factors, many of which are common to our European competitors. What puzzles most observers and is disturbing to our citizens is that our condition has progressively worsened while our European neighbours have grown more prosperous. As a result, we have fallen from being the country with the second highest standard of living in Europe to having one of the lowest. As my right hon. Friend the Member for
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Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) wrote recently.
" Almost every year we have produced a smaller share of the world's goods and a larger share of its banknotes."
That is an apt commentary on the state of Britain today. Yet there is nothing wrong with the quality of our people that makes them unable to compete on equal terms with those of every other European nation. There is no lack of natural resources or absence of technical skills or financial ability which would cause us to be bottom of the league.
Therefore, one is bound to conclude that it is the organisation of our resources that is the cause of our troubles. And the greatest drawback from which we suffer is the unwillingness of our trade unions to co-operate in getting the best out of our men and machines. Instead of helping to harness the wealth of this country to create more wealth, they spend most of their time fighting over who should get the biggest share of it.
The trade unions have a dominant role in British industry. No improvement is possible without their consent; and that consent is given only on terms which normally deprive the improvement of most of its value. Hence the closure of The Times, the world's greatest newspaper. That is the tragedy that we must seek to remedy in some way, the urgency of which becomes increasingly apparent every day. The irresponsible use of trade union power is the greatest single cause of our decline. Beside that, the problem of communication between management and employees—the subject referred to recently in a well-meaning speech by a Royal personage—is comparatively unimportant. The disability from which we suffer is not shared by our competitors in Europe and North America, because only we have seen fit to offer extraordinary legal powers and privileges to our trade unionists.
One can well see how this all happened. As is so often the case in the history of the world and in the development of the industrial society, we pay the penalty for having been the pioneers. We have not had the experience of others on which to draw in facing up to that phenomenon of modern industrial society—the development of the trade unions.
Our attitude to the trade unions in the nineteenth century was at first hostile. They developed a means of balancing the

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strength of employers by combinations of employees. In the early days the unions did a lot of useful work, which led at the turn of the century to Parliament throwing a cloak of protection around them. The trouble is that the development of employers' associations and nationalised industries has led to the trade unions becoming monopoly suppliers of labour negotiating with monopoly employers. That statutory cloak of protection, which has been added to in recent years by this Government, has become a straitjacket restraining the freedom of the whole nation.
The biggest trade unions are concentrated in the public sector. They have to contend not with greedy private employers but with the Government themselves. The victims of industrial action in the public sector are the private citizens of this country.
Unfortunately, the trade unions now speak from a position of overwhelming strength and have produced the result that we have seen in our law. They compelled the Labour Government of 1969 to abandon their proposals for reform of the trade unions. They made the Conservative Government's Industrial Relations Act 1971 unworkable and then they brought that Government down in 1974.
Mr. Eric Ogden: If the hon. Member accepts that less than half the people of this country who are gainfully employed belong to trade unions, and that of that number the Conservative Party claims that one-third are Tory voters, how does he arrive at the conclusion that the trade unions are the most dominant and decisive factor in British industry and that they make or break Governments?
Mr. Stanbrook: There are two reasons for this. First, the trade unions are concentrated in particular areas of our industries where they can wreak the most damage and have the most influence—the public sector. Secondly, they are still not democratically organised. They do not represent the true interests and needs of their members, and their leadership is not representative. Even if I have not persuaded the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden), I hope that at least I have enlightened him.
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The effect of the overwhelming power of the trade unions has been to control Government and to set aside Acts of Parliament. In more recent times the trade unions have actually dominated the economic, industrial and social policies of this Government. Clearly, that is a matter of concern to all of us. This extraordinary extra-parliamentary power is based upon the legal immunity which has been granted to the trade unions and which has caused the trouble. The immunity, which began with the Trade Disputes Act 1906, has not been given to any other bodies before or since. There is immunity in civil law for damage flowing from acts done in the furtherance of a trade dispute. That provision may have been justified at the turn of the century, but it has grown to unacceptable proportions now.
A man's business may be ruined because he is"blacked ", whether or not he is involved in the trade dispute. His job may be lost and his career prospects ruined if he is turned out of a closed shop. His reputation may be destroyed by the written or spoken word—and there is no remedy if the act has been committed in the furtherance of a trade dispute. Even if death and destruction result, there is no remedy. Several people have died in the recent industrial action by ambulance men and hospital workers whose lives could have been saved. Some died as a direct result of that action because life-saving equipment was not provided in time, or fuel or oxygen supplies were cut off. What can we say to the suffering relatives, the bereaved children and the sorrowing parents? Do we tell them that their loved ones have been sacrificed on the altar of trade union privilege, or that their deaths were not in vain because they served to gain for the workers involved some marginal improvement in their conditions of service? What we cannot tell them is to sue for damages and go to law to make those who were responsible for the tragedy—the damages, the injuries or the death—responsible in law. Trade unions are immune from such actions in law.
A careless nurse or a surgeon may be sued, but a trade union that deliberately deprives a hospital of the means of affording life support cannot be sued. It is intolerable that that situation exists in Britain today and it could not possibly

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have been foreseen by those who framed the legislation three-quarters of a century ago.
The endangering of lives is particularly dramatic and tragic, but, as every hon. Member knows, trade union power is all-pervasive nowadays. Unions control so much of some industries that they control the conditions of work of all those engaged in it. The closed shop is an affront to free society. The injustice which is done to long-serving employees who are dismissed without compensation or redress because they refuse to join or—worse still—are expelled from a union stinks in the nostrils of free men. There should, in my opinion, be an equal right to join or not to join a union.
This all-pervading inhibition over the free movement of our people is a tremendous burden on our industrial efficiency. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), who is not here today, has given me permission to quote an example from his constituency. A constituent of his is employed by a firm of printers and is a member of SOGAT. He is seeking a job with another firm for which his special qualifications are particularly desirable. A vacancy exists in the firm but, unfortunately, it is earmarked for an NGA member. Although there are SOGAT members in the other firm, the man would not be allowed to resign his SOGAT membership and join the NGA in order to get the job. If he approached the other firm on that basis, the SOGAT members there would take industrial action, as this would upset the balance of power between the two unions.
It is the very fear of trade union action that leads to so much evil. We have all heard about the tax amnesty for casual workers on The Sun newspaper. No doubt other hon. Members have received letters from those who have been penalised by the Inland Revenue because of employing casual workers of whom they have not secured full details. The problem is widespread. For men to be excused income tax at the behest of the union is one of the worst examples of the tyranny of trade union power.
When trade unions behave in this way and are protected by the law from the consequences of their actions, it is no wonder that the law is brought into dis-
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repute and others feel encouraged to flout it. When teachers go on strike and abandon their classes, it is no wonder that children play truant. When trade unions are endowed with these powers and protected by immunities, is it any wonder that they exploit them to the full for their own selfish interests?
Some unions are able to bring the country to its knees—lawfully and without the arrest of a single picket. What hope is there for a successful incomes policy while such powers remain unaltered? What hope is there for the code of conduct negotiated between the Government and the TUC? If that code is not in the interests of a trade union, the union has the power to flout it lawfully. Therefore, why should it bother with it? It is evident from present industrial action that the provisions of the White Paper are being totally disregarded
I acknowledge that, to their great credit, a number of trade union leaders recognise the dangers and the problems associated with the existence of such power in the hands of their less responsible colleagues in other unions. Frank Chapple has had the courage to say openly that the only way to achieve a real increase in wages is by co-operation to secure an increase in productivity and not by conflict. Tom Jackson and Sidney Weighell know that they represent workers most of whom will always be among the lower paid. Judging from what they have been saying, they recognise that the only way to improve that position is to achieve a general rise in the standard of living. That cannot be obtained by trying to force their members up the scale at the expense of others. They probably detest having to threaten and take industrial action, in response to the demands of the more irresponsible elements, when it damages the industry and its capability to employ those members and give them better wages.
Many trade union leaders recognise that the powers of trade unions are unsatisfactory and should be changed. But they cannot bring about that change by themselves—they need assistance from Parliament.
I am not satisfied with the proposals of my own party. They seem to have been formed soon after the February 1974 general election when the powers of militant trade unions were most terrifying.

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There then seemed no hope for the return of a Conservative Government able to govern without the consent of the trade unions. As a result, the Conservative Party's proposals are limited to peripheral areas. These include extending the class of exemption from the closed shop to those who have well-founded, deeply-held personal convictions, limiting the number of pickets and providing certain measures to assist internally democratically organised trade unions—the secret ballot, and so on.
All those matters are useful and will go some way towards helping to solve the problem, but they do not strike at its centre. They do not seem to appreciate the urgency of the problem. In my view, they are too namby-pamby for words.
Nothing in those proposals will prevent the sort of industrial action that we have experienced in the past few weeks. I hope that the Conservative Party will not suggest that its proposals will suffice to reform trade unions so that they are made to serve the general interest. The proposals are made in ignorance of an important and conclusive change in public opinion since February 1974. In some ways, the electorate misunderstood the nature of the question that it was being asked in 1974 and returned an uncertain answer. It is now accepted that Parliament must get to grips with the problem, that legislative action must be taken and that it can be taken only by a Conservative Government.
I am not seeking such a change in the law that would cause trade unions to be disabled from exercising the fair exercise of responsibilities that have always been considered to be rightly theirs in the promotion of the interests of their members, though no doubt some Labour Members will accuse me of doing that. However, we must try to get the balance right because it has gone much too far in the wrong direction.
Some restriction on the immunity of unions at law is called for and would be overwhelmingly supported in the country. For example, the closed shop needs to be tackled on the basis of granting an absolute right not to belong.
The democratic structure and organisation of many unions leaves much to be
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desired. If trade unions were more responsive to the needs of all their members and had better democratic structures and constitutions, the public interest would be better served. We may be undertaking greater risks. Some Labour Members are constantly saying that certain trade union leaders are very moderate and that, if the wishes of the members prevailed, industrial action would be far stronger. However, I say that, within the law, we should reform that structure, make it much more democratic and enable the membership to control the leadership because, in the long run, that will be in the public interest.
It is also wrong that an unreformed, undemocratically organised trade union movement should own a political party as our trade union movement owns the Labour Party. Nor is it in the interests of the Labour Party that that should be so. The Labour Party should be compelled to get on to the doorsteps of its members and be financed by willing contributions from hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens—in the way that the other two main political parties are financed. The Labour Party would find the experience refreshing as well as democratic and would rid itself of some of its general management committees which are dominated by extremists.
The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) is muttering something about Orpington. I am glad to take him up on that because the Orpington Conservative Association is a model of the sort of organisation that I commend to the Labour Party. It raises £14,000 a year from the subscriptions of 7,000 members and from innumerable jumble sales, coffee mornings, dinners and teas. Thousands of small sums are raised in that way. The association is all pervading in the political interests of my constituency. Out of the money it pays for a full-time agent, an office and headquarters and still sends £2,000 a year to Conservative Central Office.
I call that democracy, democratic organisation of a political party. If we had a few constituency Labour parties able to boast of that sort of record, we might be making progress.
Mr. John Page: I thought that my hon. Friend might like to draw breath for the second half of his

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speech. Has he the figures of the membership of the Labour Party and the Conservative Party? If my memory serves me right, there are 300,000 card-carrying members of the Labour Party and more than 4 million members of the Conservative Party.
Mr. Stanbrook: That was a helpful contribution which has added to the political education of Labour Members. I am glad to see some of them here, because they at least wish to hear the arguments.
It must be accepted that it is wrong that the Government should be dominated by a one sectional interest. Parliament must bring it under control.
Many attempts have been made to reform trade unions. In comparatively recent times we have had the appointment of the Royal Commission under Lord Donovan, which produced a rather disappointing report. It was based, to a great extent, on an earlier report by the Committee of the Inns of Court Conservative and Unionist Society entitled"A Giant's Strength"which outlined moderate and sensible proposals for bringing trade unions within the law. It is not surprising that the Donovan report was disappointing, because many members of the Commission were trade unionists.
Mr. Allen McKay: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the report"A Giant's Strength"also said that free collective bargaining, which the Opposition believe in, leads, in the end, to strikes?
Mr. Stanbrook: No. The hon. Gentleman is quoting the report out of context. In a free market, collective bargaining could completely avoid strikes. It is under the imperfections of the market that we get strikes. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I can discuss the report after the debate.
The most notable attempt at reform was made by the Labour Government in 1969. It was somewhat one-sided and did not go far enough, but it was perhaps the most honourable thing that any Labour Government have done. It attempted to reform the law relating to trade unions at a time when unions thought that, having created the Labour Party, they owned it and all its policies. Tributes are in
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order for those who produced the White Paper"In Place of Strife ". With the reservations that I have outlined about its recommendations, I should like to read the second and third paragraphs because they represent what I believe is still a thoroughly commendable and non-party approach to these problems.
Paragraph 2 says:
" Our present system of industrial relations has substantial achievements to its credit, but it also has serious defects. It has failed to prevent injustice, disruption of work and inefficient use of manpower. It perpetuates the existence of groups of employees who, as the result of the weakness of their bargaining position, fall behind in the struggle to obtain their full share of the benefits of an advanced industrial economy. In other cases management and employees are able unfairly to exploit the consumer and endanger economic prosperity. It has produced a growing number of lightning strikes and contributed little to increasing efficiency. There are still areas of industry without any machinery for collective bargaining at all. Radical changes are needed in our system of industrial relations to meet the needs of a period of rapid technical and industrial change."
Paragraph 3 says:
" Until action is taken to remedy these defects, conflict in British industry will often be damaging and anti-social. The Government places the following proposals before Parliament and the nation convinced that they are justified on two main grounds. First, they will help to contain the destructive repression of industrial conflict and to encourage a more equitable, ordered and efficient system, which will benefit both those involved and (he community at large. Second, they are based on the belief that the efforts of employers, unions and employees to reform collective bargaining need the active support and intervention of Government."
That is a fair statement of the problem, and it was made in 1969 by a Labour Government. We all know what happened to that attempt at reform of the trade unions. It was murdered by the trade unions.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright: But is it not true that of the 26 recommendations contained in the White Paper, only two were opposed by the trade unions and they were willing to have the others? Why does not the hon. Gentleman comment on some of the White Paper's recommendations which were acceptable to the trade union movement? Would not that be more fair? What is more, is not it true that the 1971 Tory Act was based on two of the major recommendations in that White Paper which the trade union movement refused

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to accept and that it was that Act which gave rise to the conflict between the Conservative Government and the trade unions?
Mr. Stanbrook: I agree to some extent. If the Conservative Government had introduced legislative proposals based more firmly on the contents of"In Place of Strife ", they might have had more success.
However, the essence of the problem remains, and, although the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) may say that the trade union movement agreed with most of the proposals in that White Paper and disagreed with only two of them, the fact remains that reform of this sector of our life has to cover a great many areas, because trade union influence is all-pervasive. It is not possible to pick out a few areas with the consent of the trade unions and to make reforms. Action of that kind will only carry us further towards giving more and more power to one side of the equation.
Since 1974, this Labour Government have introduced further measures in the interests of trade unions. They have not limited the immunity of the trade unions. The balance has even greater inequality about it than was the case during the time of the Conservative Government.
There is no doubt that the Conservative Government tried to do too much too quickly and perhaps they did not consult enough. One fundamental objection may be that they failed to take sufficient account of"In Place of Strife"in formulating their proposals. However, they did their best. This Government have surrendered completely to the overwhelming power of the trade unions.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Harold Walker): Before the hon. Member passes from his very interesting remarks about"In Place of Strife ", let me reinforce what my hon. Friend the Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) said by reminding the House that in 1970 my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) introduced a Bill for First Reading which contained about 90 per cent. of the recommendations embodied in the White Paper"In Place of Strife ". That is not a bad track record for the ultimate form of any White Paper. Unfortunately, the
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Bill fell with the general election. But there was nothing in the Bill or in"In Place of Strife"which would have limited immunities for trade unions, nor anything which would have inhibited the closed shop.
Mr. Stanbrook: I accept that last observation. I have already said that in some ways this was a one-sided effort and did not go far enough. But it was a notable attempt to bring some discipline into the chaotic system of industrial relations which existed even then, yet even a Labour Government could not enact it. I accept that a Bill was introduced, but we all know what happened to"In Place of Strife ", so do not let us try to deceive the public into thinking that the measure would have been enacted but for the general election.
Mr. John Gorst: I suggest to my hon. Friend that those last two interventions might be compared to saying that an individual is fully clothed because he is wearing a great many clothes even though he has no trousers, whereas most of us would regard him as being naked.
Mr. Stanbrook: I do not quite know how to reply to that intervention. Perhaps I had better push on with my speech.
In times when it seems that Parliament is unable to cope with the problem, in our history traditionally there has been one bulwark of our freedom and one guarantee that the rights of individual citizens will be protected. That has resided in the decisions of the judiciary. In this connection, we have had a number of remarkable judicial decisions quite recently. Judges have tried to come to the rescue of Parliament. One was reported recently, when giving a decision in a certain case, as saying:
" It must be presumed that Parliament would not legislate for its own destruction."
That is a sentiment with which most right hon. and hon. Members will agree. However, we must not leave this matter to our judges. In the end, it is a question not of law but of political will. Those who have spent their political lives encouraging and protecting the growth of this tyranny will remain unwilling to tackle it. That being so, they should stand aside while the rest of us do our duty.
12.48 p.m.
Mr. Eric Ogden: The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) has spoken for about 47 minutes. I make no complaint about that. However, I ask the Chair, if I take much less time than that, to help the House to get a balanced debate not just as between one hon. Member and another but on the basis of the time taken by one hon. Member and another.
The hon. Member for Orpington put forward his proposals in a reasonable, quiet and persuasive manner. However, we all know that an hon. Member who wishes to make the most outrageous and controversial statements is well advised to do this in such a pleasant manner that the House allows him to get away with murder. I used to see this especially in local government debates when the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) and the late Mr. James MacColl made the most outrageous remarks to each other with a smile and a polite gesture. The hon. Member for Orpington had a quiet and attentive reception because we respect him, and also partly because of the way that he presented the case, which, if he had done it in the style of a speech at a Nuremburg rally, would have resulted in uproar.
To sum up what the hon. Gentleman said, I adopt what the Scottish nationalists say about the English—" It is all the fault of them." In this regard the attitude is"It is all the fault of trade unionists, and the only way we can bring the ' Great ' back into Britain is by legislation, because these or those trade unionists can do nothing to help themselves and we must have legislation to put right what they cannot put right."
I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the actions of some trade unionists in some of the trade unions over the past few months. I have made my objections perfectly clear. But I completely reject the hon. Gentleman's wider criticisms, his broader implications and his proposed remedies.
The hon. Gentleman is not just an ex-colonial officer who has come back from Nigeria after serving there between 1950 and 1960. He is an experienced Member of the House. He is a very competent advocate. In fact, he is a far nicer man than his motion or his comments this
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morning would lead us to believe. The truth is that he did his best with a bad brief.
I do not know who provided the hon. Gentleman with his brief, but I suspect that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) had little, if any, part. I see that the hon. Gentleman confirms this—the right hon. Member for Lowestoft had nothing to do with the brief which the hon. Gentleman presented this morning.
Mr. Stanbrook: May I go back for a moment to the hon. Gentleman's earlier words? I thought that he was paying some sort of tribute to my character, but then he suggested that what I said did not truly represent my opinions. In fact, it was precisely what I thought, and I have had no assistance, encouragement or discouragement whatever in what I have said.
Mr. Ogden rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpem): Order. I think that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) has clearly established that he is properly dressed—he has his trousers on—so everyone can be agreed and quite happy.
Mr. Ogden: I shall have to read that in Hansard to find out just what we have agreed.
At least we have it established that the opinions advanced by the hon. Gentleman are entirely his own and the information on which he based them has been provided by himself—though I must add that a collection of newspaper cuttings does necessarily offer the best way of formulating a policy on trade union legislation or anything else.
However, the hon. Gentleman confirms that his right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft, who has for some time been offering advice about the trade unions and industrial relations legislation, had no part in the case presented by the hon. Gentleman this morning. I have the impression that the hon. Gentleman spoke as reluctant prosecutor against a defendant whom the prosecutor knew to be perfectly innocent and most likely to be acquitted by any fair-minded jury, but we have better information now.
I take, first, the question of the closed shop. The hon. Gentleman may know,

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as my hon. Friends certainly do, that I am a member of a closed shop, the National Union of Mineworkers. On many occasions over past years in this place I have had occasion to declare my interest. I have done so proudly. But I have no interest to declare this morning on behalf of my union, since my union has shown no interest whatever in the motion or this debate. Joe Gormley is no greyer, Lawrence Daly is not off his food, Arthur Scargill is not losing his hair, Les Story is not losing weight, and Mick McGahey has gone back to Scotland to get as far away from this motion as possible.
I say that simply to put on record that the views that I shall express are entirely my own, as the hon. Gentleman's were his own. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the National Union of Mineworkers, with some advantages because of its particular organisation, has shown itself to be a most democratic body. Decisions are taken not by a few people in an ivory tower at 222 Euston Road. Recommendations go through the federal structure of the union all the way up and down the line. There is a real balance and real democratic participation.
I come now to the motion, which was tabled on 14 March, just two days ago, and it appeared on the Order Paper yesterday for debate today. It is a particularly reluctant motion—hardly a clarion call saying"This is what we shall do on Friday; let all rally round the flag." It simply appeared on the back page of the list yesterday.
I can understand anyone's reluctance to sponsor or support such a motion. I do not want to go into detail, because the hon. Gentleman suggested that we should try to make this an informed debate, an exchange of information rather than an exchange of allegations and counter-allegations. We on these Benches should try to help the hon. Gentleman with a little information. It is too much to ask us to turn the other cheek altogether, and we should try to help him with some information.
I have two principal points to put, and I ask the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends to try to understand them. The Labour Party and the trade
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union movement grew not only from the organisation of trade unions in industry but from Nonconformism and a long background of history. Trade unionists—this may seem strange to some—are a family. We began with a family relationship in small lodges, branches and chapels, and in the trade union movement we think of one another as members of a family with a common cause. It is coincidence that we refer to one another as"Brother"or"Sister ". This is a key point which the hon. Gentleman ought to bear in mind.
As in any family, we have disagreements among ourselves about what we should do and how to do it from time to time. We have what my wife and I publicly call"exchanges of ideas "—lively rows. Of course, these happen from time to time, and things are better that way. But if anyone from outside the family comes in and says"You are making a right mess of things. This is what you must do ", the family rightly unites.
So it could happen that I spent the last 12 months up to October last year as a member of the national executive of the National Union of Mineworkers, because I happen to be chairman of the miners' group in this place—a much more exclusive group than any group of Old Etonians on the Opposition Benches, though not quite as exclusive as the Labour group of Old Etonians in the person of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell)—and I could spend those 12 months as a full member of my national executive agreeing with my colleagues on production, investment and all manner of other things but disagreeing almost entirely with what half my national executive wanted to do over wages, free collective bargaining and the social contract.
No one ever suggested that my union card should be taken away. No one ever suggested that I should be disaffiliated or cease to be sponsored. Trade union colleagues look upon one another much as relatives do."We are stuck with them, so let us make the best of it." My union has never, ever, tried to tell me what to do or how to speak or vote.
I ask the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends to try to understand this feeling and approach. When they come in from outside to tell trade unionists what to do,

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they can do more harm than good. Of course, they are affected by what the unions do. Of course, hon. Members are concerned about what the unions do. But they should recognise that their influence is limited.
In other spheres, hon. Gentlemen have influence in organisations to which they may belong. For example, barristers are concerned about demarcation disputes. So are solicitors. There are problems in the legal profession—the hierarchy, the discrimination, the artificial boundary between solicitor and barrister, the question of costs and the conduct of proceedings—all these things cry out for reform.
I could not do anything about that as a member of the National Union of Mineworkers, but the hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) his hon. Friend the Member for Orpington and other lawyers could. They could help more than I could to open up that subject, to open up the City of London, to open up the structure of companies to more democratic shareholder control—let alone workers' control.
Here is a good example of the way in which control of policy and management might be influenced in one organisation, an organisation of which, I imagine, many hon. Members are members. Let them go down the road and try to get a colleague on to the elected committee or to the management team of the Automobile Association, and let them try to get a motion on the agenda for the annual general meeting of the AA.
The AA is a first-class motoring organisation, but its higher management is the tightest closed shop in Europe. We ought to take an interest in that sort of thing as well, not just in the trade unions.
I shall make no detailed reply to the dismal list of complaints set out in the first part of the motion. I happen to believe that a lot of our present difficulties and those in the near future will have come about because in September and October last year the Trades Union Congress and the Labour Party conference decided to disagree with a major part of the Government's economic policies.
The industrial and social difficulties that we have experienced over the past few months will do little to bring about the objectives of low-paid workers. Those
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ways achieve little in the way of balance or compensation. If the actions which began to take place from January continue for much longer, we will have more unemployment and fewer public services. As we have seen from the public opinion polls, the political result would have been the return of a selfish, reactionary Conservative Government. In spite of the efforts of Conservative Members, such as the hon. Member for Orpington, they would not achieve the results that unions want. A Conservative Government would not help the low paid and the unemployed.
The hon. Gentleman has suggested that legislation is the answer. Part of the motion reads:
" therefore calls upon the Government to present legislative proposals designed to encourage the development of trade unions democratically controlled by their members ".
Some Conservative Members have said that we have too much government. One of the results is that we tend to promise more than we can provide. We are expected to provide instant remedies for every problem. Perhaps we should put over the door at St. Stephen's"Please do not ask for credit as a refusal may offend." In the past, Governments of both parties have tended to offer instant solutions.
The hon. Member for Orpington says that it is possible to resolve the problems of the"democratic management"of unions—that is, if such problems exist—by legislation. It happens to be my version of Socialism—probably there are as many versions of Socialism as there are Socialists, just as there are as many versions of Conservatism as there are Conservatives—that it is not necessary for the State, the Government or Parliament to do for others what they are perfectly capable of doing for themselves.
My union happens to be a good example of control by the membership of the union's officers and policies. That is historical. It has that tradition because that is what its members have wanted. The union is a federation. The union has advantages because it is built around pits. Other unions are more widely spread.
It has been shown in recent months by the members of the Electrical, Electronic, Telecommunication and Plumbing Union that it is possible to change the control of a union. That has been demonstrated

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by Equity and by the Civil and Public Services Association. When enough members attend a meeting and put their point of view, they can take control of the meeting. That has been demonstrated in other unions in other ways.
If the members of a union want a secret ballot, they can have one. Every registered trade union must ensure that its rules and regulations conform to a national policy. If enough members of a union want something, they can achieve that within the organisation without recourse to parliamentary impositions. My union has used postal ballots. We use an outside body—the Electoral Reform Society—to control and organise ballots.
Mr. Jonathan Aitken: The hon. Gentleman speaks as a member of a wealthy union that is able to afford postal ballots quite easily and has an honourable record in furthering them. However, I and many other trade unionists come from unions that feel financial constraints about ordering postal ballots when ballots will strain trade union funds. Is he aware that Conservative proposals to make funds available to trade unions that wish to have secret ballots but feel financial constraints are not hostile to unions?
Mr. Ogden: I am not saying that that proposal is hostile. The hon. Gentleman says that I am a member of a wealthy trade union. It is wealthy because the members pay for their union membership. We do not try to get it on the cheap. Fortunately, millions of miners in the past have put into union funds their halfpennies, pennies and twopences. Those contributions are in the kitty. The membership pays for its union. Members put their hands in their own pockets. I still think that the members of too many unions want the services of the union on the cheap. Too often, in Britain we try to get something for nothing. That applies to all political parties and to most trade unions.
We hear trade unionists complaining about union levies when the levies are less than the price of the pints that they are holding in their hands. The proposition of the hon. Member for Orpington is"If you are not prepared to pay for what you want yourself, go to the Government and they will pay for it ". That
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may be Conservative policy, but I believe that it is not necessary for the State to intervene and to do what people can do for themselves.
The organisation of every registered trade union is fair and democratic. The policies of unions are decided not by a few officers in headquarters or by those who attend the party conferences. Policies are decided in the branches and lodges, as the policies of my party are decided in the ward Labour committees. We should be saying loud and clear that too many are more concerned about watching"Coronation Street"or"Crossroads"than attending their union or party meetings.
I went to a meeting in St. Paul's church school, West Derby, a fortnight ago. There were about 100 persons at the meeting. Those 100, divided into four wards, could have taken over the whole of the Liverpool, West Derby Labour Party or Conservative Party. That would be the result if they went to their party meetings one night a month. If that happened within the Labour Party in West Derby, those 100 could control my constituency Labour Party. That is a fact. We know what has happened in other areas. The 100 did not want to do that. The opportunity is theirs and not mine. We ought not to complain about those who attend meetings and decide policies.
We should be encouraging participation. Participation is hard work. It means giving time and dedication. At the meeting to which I have referred I received complaints from those representing a Civil Service union and from many others. There were those who were worried that I might be taken over by Left-wing militants. All that they have to do is attend meetings once a month. There is no alternative to that form of participation.
The remedy of"We shall do for you in Parliament what you are not willing to do for yourself by getting off your bottom"is not enough. I remind Conservative Members of some words of Sir Winston Churchill. I happen to agree with them completely. Those words are—" liberty to man requires eternal vigilance ". Those who want something and are prepared to do something will get their way by means of democratic persuasion. There is nothing wrong with the

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trade union system if those who want a fair and honest system will work for a fair and honest system. The offering of legislation is no substitute for that.
Mr. Gorst: Earlier the hon. Gentleman made the fair comment that a trade union is rather like a family. He explained a reference to brothers and sisters- If that is a fair analogy—I accept that it is—why should not the Government of the day, who are entitled to intervene in"family"affairs to decide to whom various things will be paid and what shall be done within the family, concern themselves with the aspects of the family to which the hon. Gentleman has been referring and which affect the nation as a whole?
Mr. Ogden: Of course we are concerned. More people should be so concerned. The remedy proposed by the hon. Member for Orpington is that we should introduce legislation. The hon. Gentleman wishes to impose restrictions.
Mr. Gorst: How else?
Mr. Ogden: In my way, not in the hon. Gentleman's way. Everyone can act for himself or herself if a little time, effort and trouble is taken. The hon. Gentleman's case is that unions are not democratically controlled. My case is that unions are democratically organised and controlled by those who have enough interest, time, dedication and willingness to work to organise and control them. There is nothing wrong with the organisation. It is rather like complaining about a tennis club that is making the wrong decisions. If people do not attend meetings, they cannot expect to have a say in the decisions of the organisation to which they belong. In the Scottish devolution referendum it was said that"Don't vote"meant"Don't know ". At elections in Merseyside we say"The only votes that count are those that go into the box. If you don't vote, don't complain."
The decisions that are made inside unions or any other organisations are made only by those who take the trouble to attend meetings and have their say and cast their votes. The proposals in the motion are no alternative to people doing for themselves what they are capable of doing if they are prepared to give a little time and attention to helping themselves.
1.10 p.m.
Sir Derek Walker-Smith: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on his success in the ballot, his choice of subject and his interesting and stimulating speech.
It is a privilege for me to follow in debate so experienced and respected a trade unionist as the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden). I am not a trade unionist but I have no bias against trade unionists. Indeed, my bias is the other way, for many reasons.
In my youth I studied nineteenth century industrial relations as a special subject at Oxford. I studied the 1869 Royal Commission report and the 1871 Act. It is always dangerous to claim to be the only Member to have done something, because one is nearly always wrong, but I am probably the only Member of the House to have read the report on the conditions of the hand loom weavers.
I was brought up with a background of collective bargaining. For many years my father played a prominent and agreeable part in collective bargaining in the building industry. For that reason, in my early days in the House, I was privileged to be on friendly terms with the prominent trade union leaders of that time—those
" simple great ones gone
For ever and ever by."
I am a believer in the efficacy and desirability of employee participation in industry and of pursuing sympathetically studies of models in other countries to see how far we can absorb and adapt their practices for our own situation.
" Be to "
their
" virtues very kind;
Be to "
their
" faults a little blind."
There are virtues in plenty and there are faults. It is a service to the trade unions to identify the faults and encourage correction.
I am sorry that my suggestions come from outside the family but they come from a sympathetic outsider. I reciprocate with the hon. Member for West Derby. I shall be willing to consider any suggestions about the improvement

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of procedures in my own profession. The public are increasingly aware of the faults. The general good will towards trade unionism is in danger of erosion, and in this country no institution can prosper in the long term except on the basis of good will.
There is an instinctive antipathy to any exercise of power without responsibility. The public apprehend such a situation in the trade unions today. They represent a twentieth century case of the over-mighty subject. The traditional practice of the British people is to bring over-mighty subjects, be they persons or institutions, within the law. The Master of the Rolls recently addressed the following words to the Attorney-General:
" Be you never so mighty, you are not above the law."
The law operates traditionally to protect the individual citizen against the State and against those mighty elements within the State which might otherwise exercise power without responsibility or redress. The trade union movement is one such mighty element within the State—indeed, it is the main one. It is right therefore that we should review the law to see whether arrangements can be improved to bring increased protection to the individual and unorganised elements in society without prejudicing the proper functioning of trade unions or diminishing their usefulness.
The greater the power, the greater should be the accountability. This restraint in the exercise of power, which runs like a golden thread through British history, is epitomised in the words of the greatest Englishman. Some of his words gave the title to the Conservative lawyers' pamphlet. The words were put by Shakespeare into the mouth of Isabella in"Measure for Measure ". They were:
" Oh! it is excellent
To have a giant's strength, but it is tyrannous
To use it like a giant ".
Mr. Sydney Bidwell: I recollect being told by one of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's colleagues that he was also a poet when he was at Oxford.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: I do not think that I can aspire to that. The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) is always kind to me. He was kind enough 20 years ago, when he contested
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my constituency, not to take it away from me.
It is illuminating to consider the trend respectively of trade union and company legislation since 1871 when the original Act was passed. In that century there have been two sharply divergent trends—an interventionist trend in respect of companies and a relaxation of control in respect of trade unions. The internal conduct of companies increasingly is regulated by law. Their rules are subject to table A of the Companies Act. Active intervention is taking place now on insider dealings and other matters. There are many restraints on the internal conduct of companies. This is in the interests of consumers and is based on the philosophy of protecting individuals against powerful organisations. That trend is generally accepted.
But the position is wholly divergent for trade unions. In the century since 1871 there has been not an advance in intervention for the protection of individuals but a significant retreat. The trade unions now have freedom from control in their internal affairs, in stark and striking contrast to what obtains for companies. That is out of line with the broad philosophy of the age.
This dichotomic position, favouring the trade unions and exempting them from any control of their rules and internal conduct in the interests of democratic propriety and natural justice, was established in the 1976 amendment Act. This is curious. From the earliest days in the 1871 Act there was a statutory prescription in regard to trade union rules and their contents.
This was reviewed by the Donovan Commission. I pay tribute to Lord Donovan, who was a dear and valued friend, as a Member sitting on the Benches opposite in earlier days and as a member of my profession. The Commission found that the trade union rule books generally fell far short of satisfactory standards of clarity. In paragraph 649 it recommended that the requirements could and should be revised with a view to ensuring better safeguards for individual members.
The Commission made a particular recommendation on the disciplining of members in paragraph 651. That recommendation was enacted virtually ipsissimis

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verbis in section 6 of the 1974 Act, in subsections (11) and (13). Section 6(13) is of particular interest because it states:
" In making provision for any hearing or determination of any question, whether in relation to an alleged offence, appeal or dispute, the rules shall be so framed as not to depart from or permit any departure from the rules of natural justice."
That excellent provision—put on the statute book by a Labour Government—safeguarding the rights of individual members of trade unions and natural justice, was repealed by section 1 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Amendment) Act 1976, as, indeed, was section 5, which provided for the rights of workers in regard to arbitrary or unreasonable expulsion or exclusion from trade unions. For good measure—or perhaps bad measure—section 1 also repealed the power of the Registrar of Friendly Societies to remove a trade union from the list on the ground that
" its rules do not comply with the provisions of this Act ".
In my view, these 1976 repeals were a retrograde step. It is of fundamental importance to restore a statutory provision as to union rules in order to safeguard the position of individual trade union members and to ensure that the citizen does not forfeit his rights as a citizen or the protection of natural justice when or because he joins a trade union.
A restoration of a rule making such provision would be a very simple statutory exercise. So would be an addendum to deal with the question of secret ballots before strikes. Again, this is an essential and obvious protection for the individual trade union member and for society at large.
After all, if the practice of parliamentary democracy requires a secret ballot in parliamentary elections to protect the citizen from possible interference, intimidation, victimisation or the like, surely the same should apply here. There would be no problem in drafting or giving effect to this desirable improvement. Section 6(1) of the 1974 Act said:
" The rules of every trade union and employers' association shall contain provisions in respect of the matters mentioned in the following subsections of this section ".
There followed 13 subsections, of which the last three were additions following the Donovan report. All that is required,
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therefore, is the restoration of this section, plus a fourteenth subsection imposing a duty to include in trade union rules provision for a secret ballot prior to strike action.
These improvements are fundamental. They will obviously benefit individual members of trade unions. They will also benefit trade unions as a whole by helping to remove the odium which in this country always attaches to the exercise of arbitrary or irresponsible power. They are also of fundamental importance, in my view, in the context of the closed shop,
Today there is a mounting hostility against the closed shop and deep resentment about some of its workings. But what is not certain is that this hostility would extend to closed shop arrangements which safeguarded the rights of individual members in the way that I have proposed. The hostility is not so much to the concept of the closed shop as such. The hostility is to a position where a member can forfeit his union membership without the protection of natural justice and democratic procedures and thereby, because of the operation of the closed shop, lose his job and his right to work. That is what is resented—naturally, rightly, deeply and inevitably. But that is not to say—and here I do not go the whole way with my hon. Friend—that the advantages to collective bargaining of an improved, modified, system need necessarily be lost if the proper safeguards are introduced.
That was certainly the view taken by the Donovan Commission at paragraph 602, where it said:
" In our view prohibition of the closed shop must be rejected. It is better to recognise that under proper safeguards a closed shop can serve a useful purpose and to devise alternative means of overcoming the disadvantages which accompany it."
That is the approach which I have suggested today. These safeguards are, I think, necessary and minimal, but they must be introduced speedily. Every week of delay strengthens the hostility to the closed shop concept and ensures that, if left unsafeguarded and unreformed, the electors will demand its total prohibition, because the temper of this people will not stand tyranny by whomever it is exercised.
My advice would be: do not at this moment get embroiled in the general argument about the closed shop as such.

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Let us have urgently these safeguards and reforms which can so readily be achieved, and see whether it is possible, with the aid of them, to retain a form of convenient and acceptable collective bargaining, freed from arbitrary procedures and denial of individual rights which characterise and disfigure it at this time.
I conclude with a word on picketing. There is no doubt that picketing has become liable to abuse and has, in the form of secondary picketing, departed from the contemplation of the original concept. I am awaiting from the Secretary of State an answer to a specific case which I have referred to him from my constituents in this regard.
The words which give rise to difficulty are the words in section 13 of the 1974 Act—
" In contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute "—
as being necessary to establish exemption from liability in tort. Those words are, in fact, as old as the Trade Disputes Act 1906, and were authoritatively interpreted shortly afterwards by Lord of Appeal Lord Shaw in Conway v. Wade, in 1909 Appeal Cases. Recently they have been explained in the Court of Appeal in Beaverbrook Newspaper v. Keys and in the MacShane case, and at first instance by Mr. Justice Ackner in the United Biscuits case.
It is clear from these judgments that immunity depends on the question of remoteness. This is natural, since all liability in tort is subject to the test of remoteness. It would appear, therefore, that there should be reasonable protection against secondary picketing under the law as it stands, with the aid of proper judicial interpretations such as we have been having of the words
" furtherance of a trade dispute ".
Nevertheless, I think that what people as a whole want to see is a clear prohibition of secondary picketing so as not to put unoffending people, not parties to the dispute, at the mercy of flying pickets and the like. What is required, therefore, is a simple avoidance of doubt statutory provision so as to provide expressly that immunity be restricted to pickets who are parties to the dispute and premises which are in the ownership of parties to the dispute. Again, it would be
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a simple as well as a salutary statutory provision.
Progress on these lines in regard to picketing, in regard to secret ballots, and in regard to rules giving the protection of natural justice to the citizen, the union member, would not be inimical to trade union activity. On the contrary, it would be beneficial. It would lead to a greater acceptance of the great position of trade unions in society, to a diminution of the present resentment felt by the public, and to an easing of the task of those statesmanlike trade union leaders and representatives who seek to avoid counterproductive, irresponsible or arbitrary action and the abuse of trade union power for political ends.
To those who complain that a modest measure of reform, designed to promote democratic procedures and to control arbitrary or unjust action in the interests of the individual, would weaken trade unionism. I would say that an excision of some of their current powers and privileges would leave them a healthier organism.
If I may be permitted one more Shakespearian citation, I commend the exhortation of Hamlet to his mother when, on his rebuking her for her misdeeds, she said:
" Oh Hamlet, thou hast cleft my heart in twain ".
He replied:
" O throw away the worser part of it,
And live the purer with the other half. "
Queen Gertrude did not take Hamlet's wise advice and suffered in consequence for not doing so. I respectfully urge the trade unions and the Government to be wiser and to take the advice proffered while time still allows.
1.31 p.m.
Mr. Sydney Bidwell: I am glad to follow the contribution made by the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith). I knew that his contribution would be profound, because I recognise that over the years he has participated in the affairs of Conservative Members of the Inns of Court.
My ability to quote Shakespeare is tremendously limited. My wife had a better formal education than I did and is therefore better able to spot quotes from Shakespeare. However, I recall that in

1013
my maiden speech in the House I quoted from Shakespeare. I understand that it was from Shakespeare, but I have not since been able to locate where it occurs, despite research in the Library. It was to the effect:
" Take physic, pomp;
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel ".
That passage was quoted by the late Lord Samuel at the time that a memorial bust to Keir Hardie—the first leader of the Parliamentary Labour Party—was being placed in the House of Commons.
My main criticism of the contribution of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) is that it was excessive and out of the world of the concrete reality of what is likely to occur and what is feasible in industrial relations in this country.
I bring to the debate a background of experience which I suggest is not to be sneezed at. I am carrying my fully paid-up membership card of the Transport and General Workers' Union. I am sponsored by the TGWU, but I was not a sponsored Member when I first came to the House. I was a member of the National Union of Railwaymen at that time. However, because I was not on the railway payroll, I was not eligible for sponsorship. One of my proudest recollections is that I was chosen to represent the constituency in which I was born in preference to the journalist aspirant, the legal aspirant and another aspirant sponsored by a trade union which regarded the seat as its own. Despite that, the local constituency Labour Party preferred me, though very narrowly. Otherwise, I should perhaps have been back in Hertfordshire, East. I think that I was en route to Harrow, East. I moved from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's constituency to Hertfordshire, South-West with the disastrous result of a 10,000 Tory majority against me. I have now got it in reverse. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman were to contest Ealing, South-all against me at the election, I think that he would suffer a worse disaster than I suffered in Hertfordshire.
The hon. Member for Orpington appealed for a serious and rational debate. He said that he hoped we would approach the debate seriously and would accept everything he said as being sin-
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cerely meant. Reference has been made to the hon. Gentleman's character as a pleasant man. I have always found him to be pleasant, but even pleasant men do not always get things quite right.
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has got things quite right today. His presentation of the motion was excessive and it is unlikely to succeed in the light of the discussion in Parliament on industrial relations. Because the motion is wide-ranging, it inevitably raises a whole host of questions. I should like to deal with some of them.
I was a London regional educational officer of the TUC and an organiser of the National Council of Labour Colleges for 10 years. The bulk of trade unions are affiliated to that organisation. When I went to the TUC I gained knowledge of industrial relations by participating in trade union summer schools at which I learned a great deal of what went on in all sections of industry, particularly in the minds of leading people in industry.
I have never been down a pit, but I learned a great deal about the coal mining industry from discussions with members of the National Union of Mineworkers who attended the summer schools. I learned about the great fraternity and family spirit of the coalfields through listening to them, although I often thought that, by and large, they did not know much about industry outside the coal mines.
We brought together within the fraternity of the trade union movement those who were likely to play leading roles in the years to come. Therefore, I think that I may say that I have a fairly broad understanding of the general tone of thinking at that level. It is that level—the leadership level—which counts. That is the level at which many men and women start to hold responsible positions within the movement.
Such knowledge is held in varying degrees by most, but not all, of my hon. Friends. Some of my hon. Friends are lawyers and are therefore not members of trade unions. Hovever, they are members of their own professional organisations within the legal framework. The legal profession is certainly a closed shop. As the right hon and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East generously said, many legal practices are open to serious question. I have had recent

1015
experience through constituents' complaints about the legal profession. However, I do not wish to labour that point today, because this is a proposition on the need to reform trade unions. In fact, it is not that proposition at all. It is a proposition to extend the law. I think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was much more on the beam in addressing his mind to the question of reforming trade unions than his hon. Friend the Member for Orpington, who had the good fortune, by the luck of the ballot, to introduce the motion.
We could not have a prepared speech for this debate, even from the Trades Union Congress, because we did not know exactly how the hon. Member for Orpington would present his case. However, I must say that we have anticipated him pretty well all the way along the line. Whether he wanted to be party to it or not, there is an orchestrated activity on the Opposition Benches. Every now and again we get a Ten Minute Bill popping up. Only the other day, the question of the political funds of trade unions and the manner in which they are collected was raised. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will know that a great history is attached to this. The House firmly rejected the proposal that those funds should be disturbed in any way.
In the Conservative Government's Industrial Relations Act 1971—which I label for shorthand, the IRA—that proposition was not put forward. It was left to the Liberals to put forward a proposal, which did not go through, that the relationship of the political funds and the method of collecting them should be changed. Throughout history this has been a kind of shuttlecock. I do not think that the official Opposition seriously propose to disturb that arrangement.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), who successfully opposed the motion the other day, was not quite right. In fact, the political funds were built up out of legal necessity, not simply because the unions thought they would have to go off at a tangent into politics. It was the Osborne judgment of 1909, when a railway worker challenged the right of his union—the old
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Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, the forerunner of the National Union of Railwaymen, which started in 1913 to spend its funds to get the general secretary of the union into this place. That was the origin of the Osborne Act. Arising out of that, eventually, came the separation of expenditure and the necessity to create a special political fund. The usage of that fund is exceedingly limited.
The House should be reminded that many of the unions have political funds as required by law under the contracting-out procedure, which, after the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Act 1927, became a contracting-in procedure. Many Conservatves would like to turn the clock back. I do not think that most of the saner Opposition Members think that agitation along those lines is worth a candle because it might bring a reaction. Inevitably it raises the question of contributions to Conservative Party funds.
I feel justified in mentioning that because the hon. Member for Orpington treated us to a description of how the income of his own constituency Conservative Party was arrived at. He told us about rummage sales and so on. In"The Money Programme"on television recently we were given an insight into the considerable contributions made by the top companies to the funds of the Conservative Party.
I claim to be a very ardent Socialist and one who wishes to carry on with the class struggle and to resolve it. Long before the arrival of the Labour Party and the political development of the Labour movement, the trade unions were in being. There were craft organisations and then the general workers' organisations developed, of which my own union is an example. The unions, because of legal attacks on the trade union movement, were pushed towards the concept of independent Labour politics. That is the history.
Opposition Members who come to the House with proposals for not just minor legal changes but massive legal changes, such as we had in the 1971 Act, cannot shut their eyes to the message of history. I have described the main characteristic of the development of the British trade union movement and its alliance with the Labour Party.

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The essential and unique feature of the British Labour Party is that it is a trade union creation and is sustained substantially by the trade union movement. Not all the trade unions affiliated to the TUC are affiliated to the Labour Party, but it seems that all unions worthy of that name affiliate to the TUC. We had a recent breakthrough with the National Union of Teachers, which had previously not been involved in the main stream of the trade union movement for many years. The National Association of Local Government Officers, which caters for local government officers high and low, is a warm-hearted affiliate of the TUC.
Perhaps a Conservative Government will have to go about their task in a different way, should the unhappy day arrive when we return to a Conservative Government. But certainly the historical development of Britain shows that there will always be a special relationship between the trade union movement and a Labour Government, because the trade union movement is, by and large, led by Socialist thinkers who want not merely to keep the status quo but to change society. None of those thinkers—even members of the Communist Party—is advocating a violent overthrow of society as we know it. That is a piece of mythology inside the Tory Central Office. Everyone believes in the concept of peaceful change. Of course, some people want to make basic changes in society much more rapidly than others. I wish to see changes made more rapidly than some of my colleagues, and I shall continue to argue those matters.
Of course it is much better if trade union reform is obtainable—and it seems to be moving that way—through the trade union structure, which is homogeneous in an extraordinary way. The oldest trade union movement, based on the oldest trade union society, is not bedevilled, as in other Western European and competitive countries, by a Catholic, Communist or Socialist centre of trade union action. Here we have a ready-made instrument, if we know how to use it, but it will not be used by incursions of law.
All Labour Members have vivid memories of marching hour by hour through the Corridors of this place singing"The Red Flag"when we opposed every particle of the 1971 Act. The Tory Government brought trouble upon themselves
1018
because they would not bend to any amendments from the then official Opposition. They enshrined the closed shop in their legislation. I know that some hon. Members have arrived in the House since the 1971 Act. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan), who sits on the Opposition Front Bench, knows that I have reminded him on more than one occasion that the 1971 Act accepted the closed shop. The Act also included what I think was an idiotic proposition—that if one did not wish to belong to a trade union one should contribute one's union dues to a charitable organisation. Can the Opposition give any examples of an individual who objected to belonging to a union paying the equivalent of his union contributions to a charitable organisation and thus avoiding being described by the other workers as a free rider?
I do not like the closed shop being imposed by management, but management will logically say"We do not want to have a lot of silly strikes just because there are a few free riders here. It is much better to have a closed shop agreement." A union-management closed shop agreement is often initiated by the management.
The newspaper industry has been to the fore in our thoughts recently. I do not say that management likes all aspects of the closed shop as it affects the industry, but generally it likes the idea because it would not want to have newspapers close down every few minutes because of one printer, one man in a shop that was otherwise thoroughly organised, might decide that he did not like the look of the father of the chapel and would no longer pay his trade union contributions, thus causing all the other workers to say that they would not tolerate a free rider who wanted to obtain everything he could from agreements with the employers negotiated by the union.
For these reasons, the closed shop par excellence is going ahead. This poses questions. The Opposition's grouse about these developments has a certain philosophical basis. The closed shop brings about a sense of responsibility. The right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East has said that employee participation enters upon what has been the exclusive role of the shareholders. We do not see strikes of directors, though they

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often fall out with one another, try to slit each other's throat, take each other to courts and so on. From time to time the newspapers give us an insight into what goes on.
There is talk of a handful of people running trade union affairs and there being no true democracy. That is underscored in the motion. In fact, we all know that companies are run by a relative handful of people. Most of the shareholders could be absent from the country. Much of the company edifice is not democratic. There are block shareholders.
Democratic principles have been enshrined in the trade union movement throughout its history. The movement has the one member, one vote principle. Equality of the sexes existed in the movement long before there was legislation on the matter. It was based on the idea of the rate for the job, irrespective of sex, or age for that matter. If a young man was doing what was recognised within a trade or occupation as an adult job, he had to be paid the rate for it.
A union would not earn respect within the TUC unless it was democratic. The TUC makes a clear distinction between free trade unionism and company sweetheart associations, which are not free to bargain seriously with employers in the collective bargaining sense. The TUC also draws a distinction between free trade unionism and trade unions in other lands that are excessively geared to the State machine. I think that that is the correct balance.
If I complain about the motion and the arguments of the hon. Member for Orpington, it is because he has gone too far. As he made his speech, it was clear to Labour Members that he had not been involved in the trade union movement. If he had, he would not have made the silly mistakes that he did.
The hon. Gentleman's broad proposals do not fit in with the current thinking of the Opposition's spokesman on employment matters, the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). I hope that there will not be a Conservative Government or a Conservative-led House of Commons after the next election. Many of the recent upheavals will be seen as mere skirmishes if one wing of the Conservative Party
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gains control to the extent of involving the law excessively in trade union-employer relationships. If it does that, it will have learnt no lessons from the 1971 Act.
From having free arrangements and free associations in Britain, we leapt to having the most oppressive legal system imaginable. The right hon. Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), then Solicitor-General and now Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, was the main architect of that repressive legislation. I do not say that he was insincere, but because of his lack of experience in industrial relations he thought that he could wrap the matter up nicely within the concept of legal interference. He could not, as was later proved.
The hon. Member for Orpington told us how nice Sidney Weighell of the National Union of Railwaymen, Tom Jackson and other trade union leaders are compared with some of their colleagues. But a feature of the 1971 Act was that it was opposed by the whole trade union movement. The then Prime Minister understood that his right hon. and learned Friend handling the Bill had gone too far. We now belatedly learn that the then Secretary of State for Employment, now Lord Carr, is supposed to have said that. During the passage of that Act we tried to show the concrete realities. We pointed out that if the law made it hard for workers to strike, other means of obstruction, of fighting the employer, would develop.
I should like to dwell on the fetish of the compulsory ballot. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) pointed out, ballots have been traditional in the coalfields and other sections of industry. Elsewhere they have not been traditional. I wonder whether hon. Members who make a fetish of the compulsory ballot realise that there is also a role for leadership.
The trouble with the Tories is that they think of a bunch of woolly-headed militants calling the workers out at the slightest provocation, with gay abandon. They think that the workers all come out like a lot of sheep. That is not so. There is always a build-up to an industrial dispute. We have traditions of plant bargaining and plant disputes, with the democratic indication being given in the factory yard.

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No doubt a Tory Government would bring in a law to govern these matters, but have they considered the practicalities? If not, they should have a word with those who are in industrial management. What will happen if a union has to operate a ballot before it can call a strike? In the first place it will take a long time to organise because one will not be balloting merely the members who attend one meeting. I gather that the Tories would like postal ballots, or even a process that would involve knocking on people's doors—which is not a desirable practice.
The Conservative Party has not worked out the machinery to be used in ballots. It has certainly not considered the realities of the situation. One would have to leave it to the workers to determine whether a ballot was desirable. Sometimes a ballot is desirable, but at other times it is not. Let us remember what happened in 1971 when the railway workers were in dispute. The then Secretary of State for Employment ordered a ballot under the Industrial Relations Act. What happened? Many railway workers, who had been only lukewarm to the idea of taking industrial action, changed their view when their union was ordered to conduct a ballot. They felt that the integrity of their union was at stake, especially when that attack came from a Tory Government, and they rallied to the support of the union to sustain an industrial dispute on which initially many had not been too keen.
Most Conservative Members who are present at this debate are legal theoreticians. It is a pity that we do not have more participation in our debates by those who are involved in industry on the management side, because they are the people who have to deal with the concrete reality of industrial relations.
I wish to allow other hon. Members to contribute to the debate, so I shall conclude my remarks. I shall not go into the ways in which the Conservative Party obtains its funds, but I wish to correct the hon. Member for Orpington on who brought down the Conservative Government in 1974.
Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: The miners.
Mr. Bidwell:It is not correct to say that the miners or the trade union move-
1022
ment brought down that Government. It was the public who led to the downfall of that Government. There was a natural swell of sympathy for the miners, who were regarded as a special case. They were regarded as an integral part of the British economy and had to be paid the rate for the job. That is particularly the case when a nation's fuel supplies are threatened from outside its own shores.
No doubt the Tory contributors to this debate believe that some mileage is to be gained from this motion in influencing the electorate. I do not think that is correct. When the industrial upheaval subsides and when the new-found relationship between the Government and the trade union movement is firmly anchored, it will be seen by the electorate that a Labour Government are much more likely to look to matters that need to be changed I refer to the reorganisation of the trade union movement, including possibly fewer unions—and, indeed, the trade union movement has been advancing towards that view for some time.
In our mature society we need co-operation between workers and employers, and we require massive investment in industry. We also need to shed the heavy weight of our defence burden—a burden out of all proportion to our industrial capabilities. We shall achieve these objectives only through good relationships between the trade unions and the Labour Government. This motion demonstrates that this country will never achieve such a relationship with a Tory Government, who will be influenced by so many Tory backwoodsmen.
2.8 p.m.
Mr. John Page: The hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) will forgive me if I do not refer to all the points he made in his speech. However, I shall pick up some of those points as I go along.
I wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on choosing this interesting topic for debate. However, I sympathise with the Minister of State, Department of Employment, who must have spent many hours listening to debates on industrial relations.
It has become a habit for hon. Members at the outset of their remarks to state

1023
their credentials. For the last 25 years, with one short interregnum, I have been a member of the Clerical and Administrative Workers' Union, and subsequently of its successor APEX. Mention has been made of the"brother and sister"attitude in the unions and the sense of"family ". The reason why I resigned from the Clerical and Administrative Workers' Union was that I was the only Member of Parliament not invited to that union's celebration party when the Labour Government marked their victory in 1964. I feel that I should have been invited, even if eventually I had decided to refuse.
The House might also like to know that for the last 30 years I have been engaged in the same firm in the manufacturing industry dealing with the problems that arise in the plastics and rubber industry.
Where do the seats of power and the strengths of the trade unions lie? I believe that the strength lies in the basic, instinctive, and sometimes blind, loyalty of members to their unions. However, the greatest weakness is the failure of so many trade union members to participate in union activities.
Where does the power lie? Does it reside with the general secretary? I do not think that that is the case. General secretaries offer the view that they are merely used as postmen or co-ordinators of views. Does the power lie with the TUC? Again, the answer is in the negative. Mr. Murray has said time and again that power does not reside in his hands, although he may have a little influence here and there. Does it lie with the national executives of the unions? It is sometimes with the shop stewards, or, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) said, power is now on the shop floor. Alternatively, is it with the individuals at any particular moment? I hope that Labour Members will not consider me unduly cynical or offensive, but, thinking it over in the past few days, I have come to the view that trade union power lies with whichever group inside the movement is currently the most militant. I may be wrong, in which case I shall be corrected later, but I believe that it is militancy that demonstrates power in the trade union movement.
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Many people object to the politicisation of the trade union movement. The hon. Member for Southall was proud of the affiliations of certain unions to the Labour Party through the TUC. But the great weakness in the increasingly intelligent electorate in the country and membership of trade unions is their view that the trade union movement has to be dominated, as it so patently is at present, by members of the Labour Party. A movement has already started where people are offended by that. They feel a great sense of frustration, if they are not Labour supporters, at the obvious Labour inclination of the trade unions that they support. The sponsorship by trade unions of Members of Parliament has been mentioned. Members sponsored by trade unions are not desirable, but Ministers sponsored by trade unions are unacceptable. When an hon. Member becomes a Minister he resigns his business activities, and he should also instantly resign from his trade union affiliation. That is the first reform that I proposed.
There is a growing frustration and impatience in the trade union movement with the activities of some of the union leaders, who are often far more militant than the members and do not always express the views of their membership. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) was right that members should take more interest. The movement towards moderation in trade union activity has been spearheaded by Conservative trade unionists. Over the past two or three years they have again and again had the courage to go to meetings and stand up for what they believe, and Labour Members will understand that that is necessary when confronted by extremists. It is significant and important that the Trades Union Congress is taking a more positive interest in the activities of Conservative trade unionists in discussions and correspondence. That is healthy. Conservatives are as much trade unionists as are members of the Labour Party and others. Opinion is starting to rally to the Conservatives, the many moderates in the Labour Party, the Liberal Party and others who may be political agnostics.
I should like to see a reform of the political levy. Although it is not part of the policy of the Conservative Party,

1025
when we are returned not later than 7 November, the time has come to change the practice of contracting out to contracting in. The political funds built up should be distributed by an annual decision by the branch or individuals concerned as to which recognised political party they should go to.
As I wish to give other hon. Members the opportunity to participate in the debate, I shall not enlarge, embroider or explain in detail. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) made a characteristically urbane, brilliant but frighteningly clear speech. He said that, although the closed shop is an affront to fairness, it is irrelevant to try to introduce legislation to abolish it. But personal safeguards must be introduced for individuals threatened by the closed shop and the Conservatives in many instances have pledged to do that.
Hon. Members opposite may not have heard so much of these discussions as we have in the Conservative Party. First, we want to see a ballot with an overwhelming majority in favour before a closed shop is introduced. Secondly, in firms where that closed shop agreement is voluntarily made between the employer and the unions, employees must be protected so that if they do not wish to join they cannot be compelled to do so. Thirdly, there must be appeals to the court against expulsion or dismissal, with possible damages against the union or the employer. Fourthly, there must be an annual or periodic review of the existence of the closed shop. Fifthly, those with deep personal convictions other than religious ones should not be required to join.
The hon. Member for Southall did not know of any examples of a closed shop being, so to speak, opened. But not far from here the Greater London Council with the agreement of six or seven unions has opened the closed shop. Those who do not wish to become a member of the union can and shall make a payment to a nominated charity.
Conservative trade unionists are a growing body in influence and prestige, and they have put forward a five-point industrial relations programme. First, there should be secret ballots in union affairs, and that has been carefully thought out by practical and experienced
1026
men. Secondly, there should be an end to secondary picketing. Thirdly, there should be more employee participation. As an employer, one is critical of the failure of so many employers to give a lead in participation. Fourthly, there should be a reduction in direct taxation so that work can again be made worth while. I was amused the other day to hear it said"If I earn more than someone else, it is a differential. If someone earns more than me, it is an anomaly."
Fifthly, there must be an attack on unemployment. The attack on unemployment will succeed only if we create more new jobs. This is a vital opportunity for the creation of new work in new fields. It can be done. It was done and will be done again by the Conservative Government. Between 1952 and 1956 the Conservatives created 1 million new jobs in the private sector. Between 1959 and 1964 and then again between 1971 and 1974, we averaged 23,000 new jobs a month in the private sector. This is the way to increase opportunities for young people.
Like many Members of the House, I have had the opportunity to attend meetings at St. George's House, Windsor Casle, where subjects such as power and responsibility in our society have been discussed. These meetings provide a remarkable opportunity and do a successful job in bringing together the law and trade unions and other people who are supposed to hold differing views. These views can be reconciled in calm surroundings.
One of the first htings I heard at one of these meetings was an expression of sadness about the low status of manufacturing industry in our national life, compared with its status in other countries. Brighter young people in schools and universities are advised to go into professions such as teaching, research and commerce. When there is a good harvest people are happy for the farmers, but when industry is successful there is a feeling that profits are too high or that capitalism is unacceptable.
As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, we must have a psychological revolution. We do not need a new industrial revolution. I pray that the psychological revolution will be

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introduced soon after the new Conservative Government come to power.
2.23 p.m.
Mr. Leon Brittan: I join with the many hon. Members who have paid tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) for introducing this debate. As the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) said, it has been an important debate, and this is reflected in the cool approach adopted on both sides of the House. There has been a real shift of opinion on these matters. That shift has obviously gathered momentum in recent weeks, but it has been developing over the past few years.
Our discussions have centred on the extent to which it is appropriate for the Government and Parliament, by legislation, to intervene in or affect the conduct of trade unions, both internally and externally. We have had a number of analogies used today. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) used the analogy of the family. He said that the family was able to look after itself and should not be interfered with by outsiders. However, as has since been pointed out by other hon. Members, the family is not allowed totally to deal with its own affairs. There are interventions. A truer analogy was that put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), who contrasted the increasing freedom of action of the trade unions with the increasing degree of intervention in the operation of companies.
The hon. Member for Southall talked about excessive involvement of the law. However, the interesting thing is that the Prime Minister himself pointed out earlier this year that the Labour Government had introduced as much, if not more, legislation on this subject as previous Conservative Governments. In fact, the only difference has been the direction in which the legislation has been tilted. There is a very wide degree of support in the country at large for further changes.
A recent ballot showed that 91 per cent. of the trade unionists who took part agreed that strikes should not be called until there was a postal vote of members. In the same survey 80 per cent. approved of a banning of secondary picketing; 76
1028
per cent. thought that there should be a limit on the number of pickets allowed at any location; and 57 per cent. thought that the right to strike should be removed from certain key industries in return for guaranteed wage increases. Thus, there has been a shift in public opinion, and by far the most nationally significant feature of this shift is the recognition of the need for change by the Trades Union Congress itself.
Earlier this year we saw an extremely significant development when a rash of industrial disputes took us to the brink of chaos and anarchy. At that point the trade union movement itself shrunk from the abyss. It was rightly terrified of the way things were going and saw the need for action in a whole range of areas where previously it had been reluctant to act. As a result we had the famous concordat between the Government and the TUC. We have rightly criticised that document as amounting to no more than a set of aspirations recorded on paper rather than a series of actions which would actually lead to change in the life of the nation.
However great our criticisms of that document as a response to the crisis, it is nevertheless a step forward in the sense that at least it represents an agenda for reform. When we have the trade union movement and the Government accepting the need to set out an agenda for reform, we can take gratification from the fact that the arguments that we in the Conservative Party have been putting forward for so long are securing important and widespread general acceptance.
If one looks at the range of points mentioned in the concordat, one sees that it is not just an agenda for reform, but a formidable one. I do not accept that this amounts to reform itself. Nor do I accept that the points in it are sufficient to deal with our present problems. But the problems are mentioned—the need for the dependability of agreements freely entered into; the need for adequate procedure agreements; the need to avoid inter-union disputes. Those are all vitally important. The special needs of key industries are also to be found in the concordat.
We are told that the TUC accepts the vital necessity of maintaining supplies and services that are essential to the health

1029
and safety of the community. One practical aspect of that is the difficulty facing groups of workers in deciding how far to press their claim by industrial action where that could directly affect public health and safety. My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington referred to that point. The concordat is a little coy in the terms of reference but at least there is recognition of the problem.
The subject of secondary picketing and the general conduct of picketing is included:
" Unions should in general, and save in exceptional circumstances, confine picketing to premises of the parties to the dispute or the premises of suppliers and customers of those parties."
I am deeply unhappy with the formulation, but at least it recognises that picketing should be regulated to some extent.
The document contains a clear recommendation that union rules should provide for strike ballots. Again, the detailed language is a little coy about the closed shop, but the document is driven to state that there are aspects of the application of the closed shop principles that have caused concern. That is a masterly understatement, but it is important for its inclusion in the first place.
What is the approach of the Conservative Party? There has been a massive change in public opinion towards the case that has been patently and consistently put forward by the Conservative Party—assisted by, among others, the Conservative trade unionists to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Page) has rightly drawn attention. As an incoming Government, we shall have to take action. It is important that we should apply a clear set of principles and not just seek to hit out in all directions in an attempt to solve the problem. Some of the principles will inevitably and necessarily involve legislation. Other principles can be interpreted and given form in a variety of ways and to a greater or lesser extent.
The right way to proceed is to make clear the principles and priorities and then to arrange the fullest possible consultations with all parties involved as to the extent and manner in which to proceed. The consultations will be not a substitute for firm and effective action but a necessary prelude. If the TUC feels that
1030
some of the areas of concern that have been mentioned in the debate can be adequately dealt with by its own action, we as an incoming Government will be more than interested to see its proposals for handling the matter and for any legislation.
There are four principles that should underlie the approach that we bring to these matters: first, to handle the abuses of power that have arisen as a result of the present state of the law; secondly, to provide adequate protection for the rights of the individual; thirdly, to further and encourage in every possible way democracy in the trade union movement to the fullest extent; and, fourthly, to encourage and assist the trade unions to assume responsibility for the actions that they take industrially.
Mr. Rees-Davies: My hon. and learned Friend has stated lucidly and clearly the four principles that he is putting forward. Surely the prologue, before those principles are initiated, must be to ask the trade unions to justify the legal immunities which have been enshrined in the law and to say whether they are in accordance with modern needs. Surely that must be the condition precedent before it is considered whether there has been an abuse of such power.
Mr. Brittan: The first of the principles which I enunciated—to consider whether there have been abuses of power—involves asking that question. I accept what my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington said, that there have been extraordinary legal privileges extended to the trade union movement of a character not extended to any other body in our society. The desirability or otherwise of retaining to the full extent the privileges which were earlier introduced can be questioned but, without doubt, the extension of those privileges and immunities in 1976 by the present Government is well nigh indefensible.
The only reason why the 1976 Act was passed was a stubborn and obstinate insistence to extend the law in the widest possible way to deal with every conceivable action that a trade union could take and give immunity to it. It is ironic but just that the Labour Government have reaped the harvest of that legislative error. As a result, they have been faced with secondary picketing on a massive

1031
scale which has caused great disruption to the country and—of infinitely lesser importance—immense damage to the prestige of the Labour Government.
That sort of secondary picketing should and must be regulated. The Conservative Party is open to suggestions from the TUC or the Government as to how that should be done. The extension of immunity for introducing breaches of all kinds of contract, rather than only contracts of employment, is the principal feature of the 1976 Act. That cannot withstand scrutiny.
I accept what my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East has said about where picketing should be allowed to take place and who should be allowed to engage in it. The definition of a trade dispute was also extended by the Government in each of these areas. Power has been extended further and further at precisely the moment when it was clear, beyond all else, that what the trade unions were not short of was the power and privileges to secure their ends.
One of the most notorious examples of the operation of trade union power is that of SLADE, to which reference was made in a debate last week. The practice of SLADE was not to recruit members from among the work force but to go to the employer and say"It it true that we have not got one member here, but unless you institute a SLADE closed shop and make all your employees members of SLADE your products will be ' blacked ' throughout the industry."
Last week, and on previous occasions, the Minister indicated his disquiet and displeasure at such conduct. The Minister had undertaken to examine the matter and last week he said that the union had not been insensitive to the complaints, but it could not do much about it because there was a proposed merger with the National Graphical Association. The Minister said that, as that possibility was out of the way, Mr. Jackson and his colleagues were
" developing an approach to the union's positive objectives in a manner that should avoid the complaints that have been made."
I urge the Minister to be more specific. What did he mean by the words
" developing an approach to the union's positive objectives "?
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What is SLADE doing to stop the wholly indefensible practices that have been condemned on both sides of the House? The Minister cannot accept such a statement. If he has been given something more specific, we should like him to tell the House, and if he has not had anything more specific what does he intend to do? The Minister said that Mr. Jackson
" has made it plain to me that he is anxious to achieve this "—
that is, the union's positive objective—
" without returning to the conflict experienced in 1976."—[Official Report, 8 March 1979; Vol. 963, c. 1617.]
The time for statements of that generality is long since over and the time for action by SLADE and report on that action by the Minister has long since arrived. The Minister cannot be surprised that the House should show its concern about the abuse of trade union power and the extent of privileges when that sort of action is taking place.
The second principle to which I referred was protection of the individual, and it is largely in the area of closed shops that action is required. Our concerns have been succinctly set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West. There is no need to repeat them at length, but the crucial aspect is that if someone is thrown out of a union or not admitted, and there is no good reason for that, it is intolerable that he should not have a right of appeal to an independent court of law. Greatly as we are interested in the observations of Lord Wedderburn, a committee chaired by him is not a substitute for a court of law and cannot be seen to be an adequate substitute.
It is also intolerable that those with objections on grounds of conscience should be required to join a trade union and that a long-serving employee working for British Rail or any other concern should be compelled to join a trade union when a closed shop agreement is entered into. We are committed to preventing that from happening in future, and any suggestion that that is unreasonable is not capable of sustained defence.
Indeed, it will be necessary to go further and to repeal section 58 of the Employment Protection (Amendment) Act so that anyone who has been dismissed as the result of a closed shop would at least have the right to take his case before

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an industrial tribunal and seek, if not his job back, at least compensation.
The third principle to which I referred was democracy. No one suggests that trade unions are undemocratic organisations. No such wild allegation has been made, but I suggest that there is ample room for extending a greater measure of democracy at all levels in trade unions, whether in relation to the election of officers or decisions about strike ballots. After all, one of the recommendations in the concordat between the Government and the TUC calls for strike ballots.
Let us look at the facts of trade union elections. Clive Jenkins of ASTMS, Geoffrey Drain of NALGO, Alan Fisher of NUPE, Bill Sirs of ISTC and Lord Allen of USDAW were all appointed by the national executive committee of their unions. David Basnett of the GMWU and Tom Jackson of the postal workers' union were elected by the unsatisfactory system of the block vote. Jim Slater and Moss Evans were elected by shows of hands on ballot at branch level. Only Frank Chapple and Terry Duffy of the major unions were elected by a postal ballot.
Support for the postal ballot by a Government is an entirely reasonable measure to ask for and to provide. It is not an attack on the trade union movement. Some of the most distinguished trade union leaders do not regard it as such. Bill Sirs has been quoted as saying that he does not think that secret ballots should be compulsory but that he supports the proposition that the State might contribute towards holding ballots. He says that an organisation such as the TUC should be the body responsible for conducting them at the behest of individual unions. Terry Duffy has said:
" The thread through the cloth of democracy is to have a strong union movement and I see no reason why we should not receive state aid."
Even the Prime Minister has said that he would listen if the TUC approached him on the matter. However, that is too coy an attitude.
It is not exactly a draconian piece of governmental intervention to say that, faced with that degree of support, the next Conservative Government will introduce legislation to provide financial assistance for trade unions that wish to hold postal ballots. The only respectable objection to
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such ballots is their cost, and the comparatively low cost of giving that assistance would be a small price to pay for adding greater democracy to the conduct of trade union affairs.
The fourth principle to which I referred was increasing responsibility. Of course, trade unions should have the right to call their members out on strike. No one seeks to challenge or dispute that as a general principle. However, in a modern society, in which all our interests are so interrelated, a union has immense power when it calls a strike and it is right that it should show responsibility in calling for strikes or other forms of industrial action.
It is not unreasonable to say that if a union calls a strike it should accept the financial responsibility for doing so. If I were a trade unionist, I should be ashamed of the State having to support either my fellow members or their families. That ought not to be a State responsibility. It ought to be the responsibility of the trade union movement.
We are talking not about authorised bodies with no funds but about bodies that are often extremely well endowed. It will not do to say that they are not all well off because many of the wealthiest trade unions, which have substantial funds, have not provided adequate strike pay because they know that their members can call on the State for assistance. That is an abdication of the responsibility which should be accepted by the trade union movement.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Would the hon. and learned Gentleman tell the miners to have postal ballots? Does he not know that the vote in many postal ballots does not reach 40 per cent. yet miners average 70 per cent. or 80 per cent. in pit ballots?
Mr. Brittan: The hon. Gentleman will have noted that I have made no criticism of the democratic procedures of the NUM. There are many other things that one could say about the union, but I have not criticised its democratic procedures.
It is reasonable for unions to assume the financial responsibility for their actions, and it is also reasonable that if members of a trade union, plainly acting on behalf of the trade union, break the

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law by, for example, engaging in unlawful secondary picketing, the trade union should be responsible for their actions and the union's funds should be at risk. That is a reasonable limitation. Without it, there is no protection against maverick power being exercised to the detriment of literally millions of people. As a society we cannot accept that.
If we operate on the basis of the four principles which I have suggested, if we legislate where legislation is necessary, and if we consult about the form that legislation should take when it is not possible for the trade union movement to repair the ills of its own accord, I believe that we shall be taking a great step forward. A little humility is called for. I am not saying that all that happened in 1971 was right; but I hope that we shall perhaps see a similar recognition from the Government Benches that all that happened in 1976 was not right either.
If we proceed in the way that I have described, we shall not solve all our grave industrial and economic problems, but I believe that unless we proceed on those lines we shall not begin to solve them.
2.50 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Harold Walker): I fear that we have discussed these matters recently perhaps too often, but I am glad to be able to discuss these very serious issues covered by the motion in the more relaxed atmosphere that we have on a Friday than might obtain on other days of the week.
Although I may not have agreed with much of what the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) said, I join the general tribute to the way in which he presented his arguments.
I intend, first, to make a general observation about my own approach to the role of the law in industrial relations. I must also comment on one or two of the specific matters raised in the debate, but I hope that I shall be excused if, out of deference to those hon. Members still waiting to speak, I do not try to comment on them all. Then perhaps I may be allowed to comment generally on the terms and tenor of the motion.
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I deal first, then, with the role of the law in industrial relations. It is true that some people on both sides of industry want nothing more of the law in these matters than that it should leave them alone or that its intervention should at most be minimal. I do not share that view. Even if we wanted to keep out the law, it is there as a matter of fact because the courts have established the law and Parliament has had to introduce legislation if only to offset some of the judgments made in the courts. The law is there as an established fact. The more relevant and appropriate question to which we should address ourselves concerns the kind of law that it is.
If we start from the proposition that the primary objective of statute law introduced by Parliament ought to be at least to mitigate and minimise the damage done by bad industrial relations, the kind of law that we have learned not to have is the kind of law which was introduced in 1971. There is wide acceptance that in many ways it prejudiced the atmosphere in which industrial relations were conducted and that the way in which it led directly to industrial conflict did not encourage improved industrial relations.
The kind of law that is based on the assumption that trade union power in industrial relations has grown excessively and therefore should be curbed and that the law should be used as an instrument to curb it adopts the false approach which underlay the introduction of the 1971 legislation.
I accept the view of those who say that there has been a shift of power in industry and that in some cases that new power is used irresponsibly. However, in my view, rather than seek to curtail the power, we should be attempting to link with it the responsibility which often is not present. We ought to take such further steps as are available to us to ensure that power is more closely allied to a responsibility which often is not exercised.
It is for that reason that I was glad to hear reference made to employee participation. In our proposals for employee participation, there is a general acceptance that there is common ground between the two sides of the House. That is why I am anxious to see employee participation developed in a way which links responsibility through involvement in

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decision making with the exercise of power.
The kind of law that I want to see is one which reflects an understanding of the underlying causes of industrial relations disorder and, where it can, seeks to strengthen those who seek to play a more constructive role in industrial relations. In short, a beneficial role for the law is one which I want to see developed. That was the philosophy which underlay the Employment Protection Act 1975 and to some extent the 1976 Act, too. Both Acts reflected many of the recommendations of the Donovan Commission which had carried out a more thorough diagnosis of our industrial relations ills than we had had for 100 years and had made a constructive prescription. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) criticised the extension of the immunity for trade unions embodied in the 1976 Act. However, it was a very firm Donovan proposal.
I turn to one or two of the specific matters raised in the debate. I was chided about the limitations of my statement about SLADE in our debate last week. I mentioned in that debate that I had had meetings with Mr. Jackson, the general secretary of the society. I have had a further meeting with him since. I repeat that the union has not been insensitive to the criticisms levelled at it and at its tactics, and Mr. Jackson has given me a copy of an article which will appear in the union's journal this week.
That article reads as follows:
" There are a number of problems inherent in the present system which have arisen. Firms are included on the Fair List which are not really ' fair ' in ordinary SLADE terms, either because they are not wholly SLADE organised, do not have a proper Chapel organisation, or they do not recognise and operate appropriate Agreement terms of employment. Some with SAU members increasingly do work which is properly the work of other SLADE sections, and the existing labelling system sometimes confuses proper SLADE organisation.
" There is also evidence that the blanket compulsion imposed upon people by the labelling system produces a resentment which is not helpful to good and solid TU organisation. We are therefore discontinuing our participation in the present joint trade list and labelling system. We are, of course, maintaining the closest possible co-operation and liaison with our colleagues of the NGA and discussions with them arising from the SLADE decision are continuing. We are also maintaining and progressing SLADE organisation in Studios and Agencies.
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" In the meantime, and pending further advice, no further labels should be issued; members, chapels and firms are advised they should ensure that in the absence of a label the full name and address of their firm should be attached to any work they produce so that its origin can be checked in case of query; and members and chapels receiving work of doubtful TU origin should check and report to their Branch Secretary so that appropriate inquiries can be made; in the meantime and pending these inquiries such work should continue to be handled and produced."
I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will accept, as I do, that although it may not go so far as he and his hon. Friends would like, that statement marks a significant shift in the union's attitude and policy, and it is one which, I believe, fairly reflects the kind of criticism and comment which has been made in the House and elsewhere.
Mr. Brittan: The Minister will recall that one of the major criticisms of SLADE is that it has sought to establish a closed shop in a situation in which it does not actually have members of the union at the place of employment. Will he agree that what he has just read out does not bite on that, and may we know what steps he is taking to get an undertaking from SLADE that action of that sort will cease?
Mr. Walker: The statement does not mean that. It does not mean that SLADE will not seek to recruit in studios, and neither does it mean that SLADE will not seek to establish closed shops. What it means is that the method by which it sought closed shops in the sort of situation to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers—the tactics which it has used in such circumstances—will be dropped. As SLADE recognises fairly in its statement, that does not lead to good solid trade union organisation, and it recognises that the further development of union membership, with growth by recruitment, and the establishment of closed shops must rest on the argument for trade unionism and union participation.
I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman will read the statement. If he requires any further assurance, Mr. Jackson will, I believe, be quite happy to give it to him. I believe that he will find that that is what it means.
I take up the point twice made about the Trade Union Act 1913, which made

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provision for the establishment of a separate political fund where a union sought it. I think that there is some misunderstanding here. Until the 1913 Act, a trade union was able to spend its general funds on whatever objectives it thought appropriate, including political objectives. A trade union, obviously, can legitimately have political interests and objectives quite apart from its wish to spend money directly on such purposes as sponsoring Members of Parliament, municipal councillors and others. Obviously—this was clearly the case in 1971—trade unions have a direct interest in legislation before Parliament.
It would be monstrous to say that a trade union should not spend any money at all on defending its legitimate interests in those fields. But the 1913 Act sought to do just that. It was a restrictive measure which provided that a trade union could spend on political purposes only moneys specifically subscribed for political purposes.
But neither the Act nor, to the best of my knowledge, any trade union rules—this certainly applies to the great majority of trade unions—laid down that the money must be spent on the Labour Party as such and it would be equally misleading to believe, as some hon. Members opposite do, that somehow all the money paid into the political fund accrues, either directly or indirectly, to the Labour Party. That is not so. Money from the political fund is spent by the the trade unions on all kinds of educational activity, political education, and so on.
It is perfectly legitimate for us on these Government Benches to do as we have sought to do recently—that is, to draw attention to the present inequity as between the two sides of industry, the trade unions and the employers. The employers are not subject to any such restriction. I shall not rehearse the argument delivered far more ably than I could do by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) a few days ago, but I remind the House that the Conservative Party thinks that there should be restrictions on trade union expenditure on political objectives, but it does not seek to lay the same restrictions or obligations on companies to have a political fund and spend on political
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objectives only such moneys as have been specifically subscribed by shareholders for political purposes.
Apparently, the Opposition believe that companies should be free to spend money as they wish on political objectives—presumably, only so long as those are political objectives in which they have a common interest.
I turn now to the question of the closed shop, and, since we have discussed it so often, I shall deal with it briefly. I understand, of course, many of the criticisms made about the closed shop. From time to time when we have debated these matters in the House I have expressed my own concern that where a closed shop is established or practised this should be done in a flexible and tolerant manner, as has been the long-standing tradition in the past.
I have to repeat again that, essentially, in what we did in fulfilling our commitment to repeal the Industrial Relations Act—our oft-proclaimed commitment stated in manifestos—we put the law back to what it had been for many years. We did not introduce any significant change in the law that encouraged closed shops.
Mr. Brittan: On reflection, does the Minister agree that that is a misleading statement? The 1971 provisions on unfair dismissal were not repealed. By specifically providing that it was fair to dismiss an employee because he would not join a union, the Government were introducing something that did not exist prior to 1970. That could not have existed because there were no unfair dismissal provisions. Therefore, to put the matter in the way chosen by the hon. Gentleman is seriously to mislead the House.
Mr. Walker: I do not accept that charge. I said that there have been no significant changes in the law. I readily accept that there was the change to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred, but I doubt whether that was significant. The remedy created by the 1971 Act against unfair dismissal did not exist prior to that Act. However, the law had a relevance to the closed shop prior to the 1971 Act. The Government have said that they wish to be and are neutral on the closed shop.
Why did we take the attitude that was taken about the unfair dismissal provisions and allow that there should be fair

1041
dismissal on the ground that a person refused to join a trade union when a union membership agreement or closed shop existed? The Government wished to preserve their neutrality because to do otherwise would enable the person thus dismissed to go before a tribunal on the ground of unfair dismissal. That would have put the employer in an intolerable position. He would have been trapped between the law and the agreement into which he had entered voluntarily. Secondly, it would have acted as a positive disincentive for any employer to enter into a closed shop agreement. To that extent we would have been creating a statutory position where the obligation on the employer would have deterred him from entering into a closed shop agreement.
Mr. Bidwell: Does my hon. Friend agree that it needs to be spelt out to the public as a whole that closed shop agreements are often preferred by managements to the prospect of workers fighting every other day for 100 per cent. trade unionism against the free rider?
Mr. Walker: I had intended to turn to another topic in deference to those who wish to contribute to the debate. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) prompts me to make a point that otherwise I would not have made. I draw to the attention of the House the interesting research that has been carried out by the Social Science Research Council's industrial relations research unit at Warwick university. An interesting article appeared in New Society of 15 February. Part of the article stated:
" There are more positive reasons why employers have been willing to conclude closed shop agreements. The survey found that almost three-quarters of the employers interviewed saw advantages in the closed shop."
The author of the article, writing on behalf of the Social Science Research Council, concluded as follows:
" any future legal assault on the closed shop will prove even more a fiasco than before."
I did not want to rake over the old embers of the Industrial Relations Act. Surely the Opposition should have learnt by now from their experience of that Act, but apparently they have not. The available research shows that the closed shop flourished despite what the hon.
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Member for Orpington wants and which was embodied in the 1971 Act—namely, the statutory right to join or not to join a trade union. In spite of that provision in the 1971 Act, there were still disputes about enforcing closed shop agreements that proved unamenable to the law.
I turn my attention to compulsory ballots. I am sponsored by the AEUW. My union elects not only its general secretary and president through postal ballots but every full-time officer. I do not object to postal ballots. I see nothing wrong with them. I see nothing wrong with having ballots about strikes. However, is it right to impose such ballots by law?
Under the Industrial Relations Act the compulsory strike ballot proved to be counter-productive. One could ask whether a compulsory ballot should be taken before strikers return to work. Who will determine which question is posed in the ballot? That is important. Any astute trade union leader worth his salt could frame the question in such a way as to obtain the answer that he wanted, as do the small business businesses bureau and other organisations which carry out ballots.
The solidarity of the trade union movement is such that a resounding"Yes"would result if the general secretary or executive council asked members"Do you support your executive council in any action that they deem to be appropriate in support of our claim? "
What do we do about lock-outs? Should there be a ballot about a lockout? The Times is not being published because of a lock-out, not because of a strike. I do not know who would ballot whom in that situation. We have no objection to ballots when people want them. If the unions want them, we shall look sympathetically at requests for assistance.
Mr. Gorst: The Minister said that any trade union leader worth his salt would be able to fix the wording of a ballot in order to produce a particular result. Does that also apply to the way in which ACAS frames its ballots?
Mr. Walker: I am not sure that I understand the hon. Member. The rules are laid down in statute. ACAS has an obligation to ascertain the opinions of

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workers. It is not for ACAS to decide whether a ballot is used.
I turn to the motion generally. The right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), with his customary erudition, used the phrase"dichotomic position ". The Opposition are mainly concerned about controlling what they see as the unbridled power of the unions, particularly over their members. But with equal frequency the Opposition talk of the need for unions to be responsible for and to control their members so that they stick to agreements. They talk of the need to streamline the structure and numbers of unions.
Sometimes discipline is necessary to control members or to overcome opposition to the rationalisation of union structures. But we weaken internal discipline when we attack union membership agreements or give support to breakaway or dissident groups.
It is necessary to achieve a balance. I was pleased to hear the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East refer to the unions as being democratic bodies. They represent the interests of diverse groups. Within any union those diverse interests must be balanced against the overall needs of the organisation and of the community. Unions have to grapple with the balancing problems each day. We do not say that they always get it right. But the proposals in the motion show scant recognition of the need for this type of balance. The Opposition often fail to understand the conflicting pressures.
The Government's attitude should be well known. We understand the need for a reform in industrial relations. Section 1 of the Employment Protection Act gives that task to ACAS. The Donovan Commission was set up by a previous Labour Government. Its central message was that reform should be voluntary, aided perhaps by the appropriate legal framework. That remains the Government's approach.
Nothing that I have said is intended in any way to reflect anything other than my concern that changes are needed concerning the number, the structure, the attitudes and the other aspects of trade unions. But changes are needed not only in the trade unions. There are many other aspects of our industrial relations system which call out for improvement.
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There is no room for complacency about the state of industrial relations in this country, not merely now but over the last few years, with the number and frequency of strikes and other industrial action, and the damage they do. We have all seen practices which none of us would wish to condone. There are too many strikes, and too many disputes which are solved in the wrong way.
I doubt whether the remedy lies in the way suggested by the hon. Member for Orpington and his hon. Friends. I believe that both their diagnosis and their prescription are wrong. The Industrial Relations Act 1971 proved that. I find it astonishing that they should once again be seen to be starting off along the road that leads inevitably to the same disastrous consequences as the 1971 Act. Perhaps the better way, as I have said before, is the voluntary one.
I conclude with some words that I have used in the House on a previous occasion, I think as long ago as 1970. I said that there are those who believe that
" legislation which cannot do anything but control and supervise the activities of trade unions is the only answer if the unions are to play their proper part in society…. They are suggesting a surgical operation. The surgeon's knife is a drastic instrument. It often saves lives, but it can often kill, despite the skill of the man who applies it. The slow process of the physician who advises a course of treatment to enable the patient's own body to overcome its infirmity is very often the better treatment…. May I look at the alternative, and this, broadly speaking, is for the Government to assist not only the trade unions but also the employers to put their house in order and to establish a closer working partnership if we are to face the challenge of the Common Market and all the rigours that lie ahead. And this, of course, has to be done not by passing Acts of Parliament—Acts of Parliament seldom make men good—but by persuasion and by constant appeal to common sense and to common interest. This is precisely the policy that the Government is now actively pursuing. Remember also…that the employers have responsibilities in these matters. The employer must take the lead in securing better industrial relations, and this, quite frankly, does not always happen…. There are faults in the way the trade unions conduct their affairs, but their leaders are in the large majority honourable men for whom I personally have a high respect. There are things wrong. If we could put them right by some dramatic intervention, I should certainly want to do so. But you cannot deal with human problems like that. I believe that the painstaking, though unspectacular, ways in which we are trying to remedy weaknesses in our industrial relations arrangements are most likely to produce results in the

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end…. If this policy on which we have embarked fails, then of course they are right: legislation may well be the only answer. But in my opinion, this would be a tragic day that would divide and weaken our free society, and I pray that it does not come."
Those were not my words. Those were the words of Lord Blakenham, when he was Mr. John Hare, the Minister of Labour. They are as wise, as sensible and as relevant now as when they were uttered, and I commend them to the House.
3.19 p.m.
Mr. Ernest G. Perry: In view of the short amount of time available, I intend to scrap most of the speech that I intended to make. I congratulate the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on winning first place in the ballot. I agree with some of the things he said, but I think that his motion is badly phrased. It will exacerbate the situation and lead to confrontation, and it is not in the best interests of industrial democracy. If this country is to make any progress at all, we must have some sort of moderation in all these things. He said that he thought that the proposals of the Tory Party—and particularly of the Tory Party Front Bench—were namby-pamby.
Then I listened to the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, South (Sir D. Walker Smith), who was fair and moderate. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) was also moderate to some extent. When I compare their speeches with those of the hon. Member for Orpington, I recognise that this is not a problem which will be easily solved. It will be difficult if we are to avoid the intolerance of people such as the Grunwick employer and violent secondary picketing. We must try to find a happy medium.
Many Opposition Members refer to to trade unionists as though they are people apart from the rest of society. We are part of society. We contribute in the same way as others to the benefit of this country.
It is only within the last 100 or 120 years that working people have attempted to organise themselves. Others have been organised as far back as Magna Carta. The barons organised themselves against King John. Different sections of society have organised themselves to achieve
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some kind of fair play or privilege from the powers that be. The last section to do that was comprised of working people. They tried to organise themselves in trade unions in order to get a better life.
One hundred years ago this month, after the lockout of agricultural workers in Kent and Sussex in 1878–79, such workers were forced to accept a reduction in pay from two shillings and sixpence to two shillings and twopence a day. Over 500 families were evicted and had to go to New Zealand to find work. That kind of thing went on in this country during the last century.
If we want not violence but moderation, we must be careful how we handle this problem. I think that the hon. Member for Orpington wants us to go back to the seventeenth century. He talked about trade union tyranny. There is more tyranny in this world than trade union tyranny. Ordinary people have been oppressed for centuries. Working people have begun to get their rights only in the last century.
I declare a vested interest. I have been a member of the General and Municipal Workers' Union since February 1926. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby referred to David Basnett, the general secretary of that union, and his election to that position. I participated in that election. The election procedure in that union is almost the same now as when it was formed. I do not suggest that there is not room for change. The point is that David Basnett was elected by a vote in all districts which gave him a majority over five other candidates. Therefore, it was wrong of the hon. and learned Gentleman to draw a distinction between the ways that different unions operate. There is room for improving the balloting system in the trade union movement. There is also room for improvement in many other sections of society.
For example, shareholders in a company or those who buy a company's products are not asked whether they are prepared to contribute to Tory Party funds. The man who buys a pint of beer in a pub is not asked whether he agrees that part of the money that he pays for that beer should go towards Tory Party funds. People who go into Marks and Spencer are not asked to sign a form saying that there should be a reduction

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from the price of articles being bought because they do not agree with Marks and Spencer contributing to Tory Party funds. The same comment can be made of many other enterprises. That goes on not only in trade unions but in commerce. Provided that a firm shows a good return and makes a handsome profit, with which I am in agreement, shareholders will not complain.
The problem will be solved not by extremism but by moderation on both sides. The right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East and the hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby adopted the right approach, because they realised that a dog-in-the-manger attitude would lead only to confrontation with either the employer or the employee. That is what we want to avoid.
If the closed shop were done away with tomorrow, as many hon. Members have advocated, many of the large firms would complain immediately. Firms such as ICI can negotiate agreements with responsible trade union leadership and are happy to do so. They do not want shop floor negotiations in a thousand and one different plants. Large firms want to conduct negotiations themselves, on a national basis.
What is being asked for is industrial anarchy. If this country is to get out of the slough of despondency it is sometimes in, we must be prepared to recognise that closed shops are beneficial both to employers and employees.
Now, ladies and gentlemen—I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thought that I was at a public meeting. It sometimes sounds like one in the House on a Friday. I suppose that this could be called a mass meeting with the large number of hon. Members present. On a Friday we have subjects that we can talk about and are sometimes of benefit to people outside. I have no doubt that many hon. Members are thinking of the coming election. Somebody mentioned 7 November. I am not particularly thinking of that, because I am in the fortunate position of not having to face the hustings. Friday is a fine time for such subjects as we are discussing today.
Let us remember that if we are to have some form of industrial democracy, some
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form of collaboration, in order to increase our prosperity, extremisms are out. We must be moderate. We do not want vast changes. We must talk to each other and reach agreement. Unless we can do that, the situation will get worse.
3.28 p.m.
Dr. Alan Glyn: I was a former neighbour of the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Perry), and I agree with what he said. This is a matter which must be settled, eventually, by co-operation and agreement. Earlier, the Minister said that he was prepared for change but that he wanted to see that change made voluntarily. I do not say that legislation is the ideal solution, but if the unions will not reform voluntarily I am afraid that legislation must be introduced. But I put that as a second alternative. Obviously, voluntary change would be better for everyone.
We are all indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Stan-brook) for introducing this subject, especially on a Friday, because, as the hon. Member for Battersea, South and the Minister said, it gives us a chance to discuss this vital subject in a very calm and relaxed atmosphere. I agree with the words that the hon. Gentleman used. He said that we have the resources to create wealth and provided we have union, management and worker co-operation we can have prosperity. I think that the key to the whole matter is a combination of agreement to create prosperity. That must be done, in the end, by consent and agreement.
However, I am worried about public opinion, which has undoubtedly turned against unions as a result of recent events. I shall not go into that at present, because time is short. I should like to return to the analogy that was made earlier regarding the surgeon and the nurse in a hospital. If the surgeon slips with a knife or the nurse makes a mistake, both are liable in tort for what they have done. How equally liable is the man who refuses to take a patient to a hospital, or somebody who refuses to do a menial job in a hospital? I am convinced that immunity should not apply to one section and not to the other. It is one of those things that we must reform.
There is no doubt that trade union reform is called for. As a result of recent events, I think that the public are behind

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such a change. I hope, as I said earlier, that any change will be voluntary. However, I am sure that it will not be. I believe that in the end we shall have to do something by way of legislation. Historically, trade unions were created because some employers abused their powers. Present circumstances are different, so there is a good reason for altering the unions' powers—certainly their immunity from the law.
What is the function of a union? In my view, it is to regulate terms, conditions and payment between master and man. It is not to dabble in politics. A union's primary job is to look after those whom it represents.
The unions were established to create a barrier between themselves and the employers. There is one disadvantage in that. We all know that not everything is right with management. Management needs to be overhauled. Co-operation is necessary. I never want to see a barrier between management and the men it employs. I want to see them able to associate. I do not want to hear any union people asking management"What are you doing here? "
There must be a three-sided co-operation between management, union and employee. I am sure that the firms that are doing best are those that have direct contact between the top brass—the boardroom—and the shop floor.
I am in favour of a secret ballot, with the forms being sent to the members' homes, and with independent scrutineers. If Government funds and free postage are necessary, it is worth providing them, because I am sure that such a ballot is essential.
There should be enforcement of contracts, where they exist. If a union breaks contracts, it should be liable in the same way as anyone else would be liable. The political levy must be examined.
The closed shop can cause misery to its victims. I do not believe that in a free society we have the right to have such a thing as the closed shop. The hon. Member for Battersea, South is right. It may be convenient. Perhaps there are big firms that would like to have a closed shop, but we are here to represent not a small section but all the people of this
1050
country. If it is in the country's general interest, it is our job to see that the closed shops are abolished. I am not interested in the big battalions.
I turn to the law on picketing. My wife and I were victims of the recent secondary picketing. It is wrong. In the scuffle that I had, I wondered how I would like to be driving through in a lorry, having my numbers taken and my name known, and being blacked. This is not the sort of society that the country wants. Such incidents have made people believe that there should be some reform of the trade unions.
We have far too many trade unions, and we should reduce their numbers. Management has to negotiate with too many. In Germany there may be only two unions in one factory, and it is much easier to negotiate.
There is also the question of strike pay. The unions should be powerful enough to pay for the families of those on strike. They should not look to the taxpayer. I am glad that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) has at last come out with this. It should be a question of pride. The unions have the funds, and they should use them for that purpose.
Mr. Russell Kerr: is that official Conservative Party policy?
Dr. Glyn: The hon. Gentleman will have to ask my Front Bench. I am not on the Front Bench; I am speaking for myself. However, sometimes I like to echo what I hear.
There should be in this country a small body of people who by law are not allowed to strike. I refer to the workers who control key industries. Nobody should be held to ransom by a small section of the community, and surely that is in the interests of everybody. Equally, I should like to see a voluntary corps of people who are able to step in to carry out work during a strike or national emergency. Such a voluntary body would be able to step in in a hospital or anywhere else to fill the gap.
The country is sick and tired of secondary picketing, fed up with school closures, and bored with hospital waiting lists which are growing longer all the time. Legislation is not the answer to the problem.

1051
Those who represent unions and management must realise that, unless they work together, we shall never have industrial peace. Without such peace, there is no hope for an expansion in productivity. It is that expansion which will give trade unionists, and indeed all of us, a better standard of living. The unions must realise that there has been a great deal of feeling in the country against them. They must respond to that feeling and reform their own house. If they do not do so, I look upon a Tory Government to do the job for them.
3.37 p.m.
Mr. Ivor Clemitson: I wish to deal with the four themes of this debate: first, the place of law in industrial relations; secondly, the subject of power; thirdly, the subject of democracy; and, fourthly, the role of the trade unions.
The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) appeared to assume that the law was the answer to all our trade union problems, real or assumed. However, the hon. Gentleman is excluding other means of dealing with these matters. Clearly, there are other ways—for example, that of voluntary co-operation. A good example is the document referred to as the concordat between the Government and trade unions, which is a fine document and a good basis on which to proceed in future.
In any case, there is law and law. The hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that the kind of legal changes he would like to see made in industrial relations would be backed by sanctions. He was talking primarily about criminal rather than civil law. The law may have its place in industrial relations and trade unionism, but the kind of law at which we should aim is one that will enable and encourage co-operation. That is precisely the kind of industrial relations law which has been pursued in the lifetime of the Labour Government. I refer to the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act and the Employment Protection Act, both of which are based on the philosophy of co-operation rather than confrontation.
The hon. Gentleman spoke of individual rights, and referred to the judges as the bulwark of individual rights.
Mr. Stanbrook: I said that, when Parliament fails to deal with these matters, the judges are brought in.
Mr. Clemitson: There are a number of people who are in business to protect individual rights, including Parliament and the judges. I do not wish to criticise the judges, but I emphasise that the trade unions also exist to protect individual rights. Over the years the trade unions have been the primary means by which many people have acquired rights and privileges. That should not be forgotten.
Mr. Tony Durant: My experience with constituents who have to deal as individuals with trade unions is most disappointing. When a constituent has had an individual right, the unions have never been helpful.
Mr. Clemitson: Nobody is suggesting that trade unions are perfect institutions—far from it. We are considering today how to improve them and make them more democratic. On the Labour Benches we are not suggesting that trade unions are perfect institutions or instruments, and the major consideration is how to improve them.
The hon. Member for Orpington used such phrases as"overwhelming power"and"extraordinary power ". He even talked of the tyranny of trade unions. He suggested that the major reason for our economic decline is the unwillingness of trade unions to co-operate in getting the most out of men and machines. In the debate it has been frequently suggested that trade unions have become too powerful, and that the balance of power between employer and trade union has tilted too far in their favour.
Perhaps the acid test of trade union power is how much its members earn. I shall not pursue that, but I note from a recent study of new earnings that about the highest paid manual workers are coalface trained miners. Their average earning last year were £109 a week. That might sound a lot, but it is way below the earnings of Members of this House.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright: That is an extremely high figure, and perhaps my hon. Friend would tell us where it came from.
Mr. Clemitson: It is average earnings, not wages, for coal-face trained mine

1053
workers. I do not begrudge them £109 a week. I would not go down a pit for £400 or £500 a week. But here we have a body of people who are regarded as having one of the most powerful unions in the country, and even on that figure their earnings are way below those of many trade union critics.
The whole approach of this thesis on power is wrong. It is negative and sterile. It should not be a quantitative approach of too much or too little power. My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Employment said that we should seek to devise ways to channel the powers of trades unions towards constructive directions. We must consider how trade unions can more fully participate in industry instead of exercising only a negative power of veto, as at present.
Thirdly, one criticism of trade unions that we have heard this afternoon is that they are not sufficiently democratic. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) gave examples of trade union leaders who were elected by what he felt were less than perfectly democratic means. Trade unions are perhaps not as democratic as they might be, but in essence they are democratic. Perhaps it does not quite work out in practice as we would wish, but in essence the trade unions are democratic organisations.
If that is so, why are the Conservatives partial in their criticism of the unions? If they want trade unions to be more democratic, why do they not apply the same criteria to companies and the way in which they are organised? Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Perhaps Conservative Members should seek to democratise the way in which companies are run with the same vigour and fervour. If they did, I might be more inclined to listen to their criticisms.
The question of the secret ballot has been raised over and over again. Surely the question is not whether secret ballots are desirable—many trade unions already have them—but whether they should be imposed by law. The hon. and learned Member for Cleveland and Whitby is shaking his head and I know that that is not official Conservative Party policy,
1054
but I also know that many Back Bench Tories would be in favour of that.
Finally, I turn to the role of the trade unions. I indicated dissent when the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn) said that trade unions should stick to their job of negotiating pay and conditions and not meddle in politics. It is ironic that trade unions are often criticised by Tories for acting selfishly. They cannot have it both ways. Either the trade unions should be purely self-centred groups, getting as much as possible out of the system for their own members, or they should be organisations that are concerned about the welfare of all people, not only in this country but in the Third world as well. That is exactly what the trade unions are, and may they long continue to be so.
3.48 p.m.
Mr. John Gorst: I want to put a slightly different perspective on this motion. There is nothing objectionable to any hon. Member about groups of men combining together to take collective action. Nations do it and we applaud the result, describing it as patriotism. It has been regarded as both commendable and constructive throughout the nineteenth century and this century for workers to take collective action and to form trade unions in order to fight exploitation. Society has approved it, Parliament has legislated for it, and great benefits for many people have resulted from it.
However, whenever approval for collectivism is granted there must always be a firm proviso—that nothing must be done which allows the rights or freedom of ordinary citizens to be diminished in any way. Whenever nations suppress the rights of individuals, and whenever unions suppress those rights, they receive and deserve censure from all quarters.
It is a strange anomaly that we should educate our children to use their minds in school and afterwards in the world, but once they are outside in the big, wide world we surround them with pressures designed to dimish their capacity for independence. They are made to feel that individualism is an anti-social form of self-indulgence. That is an insidious development which has been getting out of hand.

1055
Nowadays we talk of mass communications, bulk buying, group therapy, comprehensive schools and collective bargaining. The theme is bigness and the concept is mediocrity and sameness. The ideal of being distinctive and original is no longer at a premium. Exceptional people are discouraged. Self-reliance and independence are strangulated.
The debate belongs within the context of that depressing trend. It raises, in the most specific form, a question about the need to reform the most powerful collective force in our society—the trade unions. I do not have time to deal with the faults and the reasons why trade unions succeed. However, as a result of what has happened in recent weeks, many now believe that there is a need to rectify the position. What is desirable and necessary is one thing; whether it is practicable is another.
The first and foremost prerequisite for any reform is what was described on another occasion as the full-hearted consent of the British people. Secondly, the public should not be cushioned or sheltered from the consequences of what an unreasonable or selfish union seeks in pursuit of an unjustifiable demand. If changes in the law affecting trade unions are to be practicable, public opinion must be rallied and persuaded of the necessity for those changes. If it is not, disruptive forces can counter-attack with impunity.
My main concern is that some of the legal immunities which are not afforded to other citizens should not be available to trade unions. Everyone should be equal before the law—specifically the trade unions. Before Labour Members raise the dog-eared and time-worn protest that we have heard throughout the debate that there is no place for the law in relations between employers and employees—
Mr. Ernest G. Perry: Who said that?
Mr. Gorst: If the hon. Gentleman did not say that, some of his hon. Friends did.
Let me remind Labour Members that trade unions obey the law and that they have on occasions pressed for changes in the law. Why otherwise did the hon. Members for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo) and for Darlington (Mr.
1056
Fletcher) seek last year to change the law when they found it not to be to their satisfaction following the Grunwick dispute? At that time, the law was obeyed and it is obeyed now. Therefore, the law is effective with the trade unions.
It is the most basic concept of a free, civilised society that if a man breaks the law we punish him with, say, a fine or imprisonment. If an organisation causes damage, it is made to pay damages. I believe that, in exactly the same way, trade union property should be sequestered if the union causes social, personal or commercial damage.
While I have been an hon. Member, I have been involved in passing legislation that demanded truth in advertising—the Fair Trading Act—truth in lending—the Consumer Credit Act—the disclosure of true facts for the purpose of collective bargaining—the Employment Protection Act—and other measures requiring that there should be truth. Why should there not be an obligation on all parties in an industrial dispute to ensure that there is truth in industrial relations?
There is no such requirement on a trade union. A union official may falsify the facts and cause damage to a firm's business, but the victim has no recourse in law. That is not merely an unfairness. It does not damage only the firm's commercial prospects. Just as undesirably, it can sour personal relations for long after a dispute has been formally resolved. It is not only business firms which may be affected. Taxpayers, ratepayers, pensioners and the sick can all be innocent victims and all ought to have redress in law.
Over many years, the trade unions have embodied the great ideal that, through combined efforts, large and small groups could improve the conditions in which they spend their working lives. At times in our history when social and industrial injustice was rife, that notion generated great self-sacrifices and immense fervour among many people. But such anomalies have long since ceased to disfigure society.
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: Not at Grunwick.
Mr. Gorst: The surge towards collectivism has not diminished. Its momentum remains, even though its justification

1057
may have abated. The consequence is that we are faced with a growing and heartless tyranny which has been shorn of its original moral justification. The solution does not lie in eliminating or destroying trade unions, and it would not make sense to return to the days of unbridled selfishness. What is required is that a proper balance should be struck between individualism and collectivism.
3.58 p.m.
Mr. Allen McKay: The debate has been constructive in parts, and I am pleased that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) raised this subject and that we have been able to discuss it on a Friday because we seem to have more enlightened debates on Fridays. Hon. Members do not seem so concerned to try to score political points, though some are inevitably raised.
I am a member of a trade union, the British Association of Colliery Management. I was once branch president of the National Union of Mineworkers and for a short time about 180 of us working in industrial relations for the National Coal Board were members of the Labour Staffs Association.
The association continued in existence for a while until one year when our colleagues in the NUM and the colliery deputies accepted their pay awards, but we took our offer to arbitration. The arbitrator said that our case was unique and excellent and that, if our colleagues had not accepted their pay offers, he would have had no alternative but to grant our full claim. Some weeks later the employer decided that the association could no longer be a trade union organisation. The case was that we were not large enough, having only 180 members, to be a trade union organisation. But I suspect that the real reason was that we had won an arbitration case, although nothing resulted from it. That is another aspect—not of a trade union but of an employer. Therefore, when we talk about industrial relations, do not let us talk about trade unions as though they were the only—
It being Four o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CRIMINAL EVIDENCE BILL [LORDS]
  Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 9 March]
  Reported, without amendment.
  Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading), and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, without amendment.

  TOBACCO PRODUCTS (CONTROL OF ADVERTISING, SPONSORSHIP AND SALES PROMOTION) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Hon. Members: Object.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday 4 May.

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A(Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c).

  AGRICULTURE
  That the Grants for Guarantees of Bank Loans (Extension of Period) Order 1979, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6 February, be approved.—[Mr. Graham.]
  Question agreed to.

  CONSENTS TO PROSECUTIONS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 66(Second Reading Committees), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Question agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  ARBITRATION BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 66(Second Reading Committees), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Question agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40(Committal of Bills).

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES (TREATIES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Graham.]
  4.2 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I am pleased to be able to draw attention briefly to the subject of the designation of European Economic Communities treaties by this House.
  It is peculiarly appropriate in this period for the airing of grievances—which indicates what hon. Members can do, contrary to articles that we have read recently—that to reply to this brief debate we have no less a person than my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House because, of course, he is responsible for the procedure of this House. However, he is also welcome for other reasons. First, in his other capacity he represents the prerogative of the Crown and, of course, it is the Crown's prerogative in relation to the power of Parliament which has been a continuing constitutional theme down through the ages and which is especially important today. The second is that, as Lord President of the Council, my right hon. Friend is responsible for some of the Orders in Council which are issued and which have to be debated by this House. The third reason why it is appropriate that my right hon. Friend should be here is that he is in effect Deputy Leader of the Party, of which I have the honour to be a member and which put on record its view on this matter as long ago as 1924.
  That view became known as the Ponsonby rules, which were proposed to Par-
  1060
  liament by the then Mr. Arthur Ponsonby on 1 April 1924 and which started a procedure which we have not yet completed. On that day, Mr. Ponsonby said:
  " It has been the declared policy of the Labour party for some years past to strengthen the control of Parliament over the conclusion of international treaties and agreements, and to allow this House adequate opportunity to discuss the provisions of these instruments before their final ratification."—[Official Report, 1 April 1924; Vol. 171, c. 2001.]
  Interestingly enough, Mr. Ponsonby put before the House three possibilities, one of which was an Address to the Crown, which presumably was a declaratory motion and which he discarded. He discarded the possibility of an Act of Parliament, and he came down in favour of custom and practice, which became known as the Ponsonby rules.
  Perhaps it is salutary to recall that the first occasion—the first that I can remember—when those rules were broken was in respect of the Treaty of Accession to the EEC—some 600 pages of treaty which were not scrutinised by the House after signature but before ratification. There was a debate on 20 January 1972, when the then Government said that, although they had not published the treaty, the ensuing legislation would be an adequate ratification, and, as we know, when we came to that day various matters relating to the treaty were not in order.
  Thus, the fount of the grievance which I raise today lies in the procedure with the European Communities Act 1972. Section 1(3) provides:
  " If Her Majesty by order in council declares that a treaty specified in the Order is to be regarded as one of the Community Treaties as herein defined, the Order shall be conclusive that it be so regarded "—
  and it goes on to expand on that theme.
  That is of vital importance for the powers of the House, because EEC treaties are very different from those which we used to have previously. The EEC is a super-Executive, a super-Crown, and the negotiation of such treaties is in the hands not of Her Majesty's Government but of the EEC.
  Such treaties widen the authority of the EEC and can amend the basic treaties themselves, as has been done. Moreover, some of them are self-enacting in law, unlike previous treaties, and some

  1061
  of them—as we have recently found—can vote money. Therefore, the way in which we treat these treaties, or, rather, the orders which so designate them, is very important. There are three ways in which that is defective.
  First, should a domestic statutory instrument which is designed as secondary legislation from the House be used to ratify what is, in effect, super-primary legislation, with all the rules of order relating to what is normal secondary legislation under an Act of Parliament, especially in respect of time? I argue that that assumption is wrong.
  Second, the domestic statutory instrument procedure is itself defective. The Procedure Committee has drawn the attention of the House to these matters, but until that question is dealt with we have difficulties, particularly in having to insist on debates on the Floor since the procedure for debate in Committee on a motion to consider is ineffective.
  Third—I shall return to this later—the domestic statutory instrument procedure does not permit the House or the nation to have proper information or to put on guard those who should know the effect of the treaties thus to be ratified. The passing of a relatively simple affirmative resolution by the House operates as a trigger on a whole range of measures which do not receive the customary scrutiny of the House although they are legislation in law to which this country is subject and which can be applied by the courts.
  The best example of that occurred on 8–9 December 1975 when two orders, the European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (No. 3) and (No. 4) Orders, came before the House, by which it was sought to ratify no fewer than seven treaties—seven treaties of 100 pages, three pages of which amended the Treaty of Rome in respect of the financial powers of the Assembly, a vital piece of amendment which was spotted, although, of course, its significance was submerged in matters to do with Greece, Israel and Turkey.
  Thus, we have a procedure whereby one can smuggle through extremely important matters. In written answers on 15 March 1979 the full list of treaties so designated was published in Hansard, and anyone looking at it will see that they have a wide range of applicability and
  1062
  importance. I submit that this wide range of self-enacting, or virtually self-enacting legislation is not suitable for the statutory instrument procedure.
  This matter has been the subject of a good many complaints. In particular, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments in a special report—House of Commons Paper 169, Session 1977–78—drew attention not only to the dearth of explanatory maaterial on the back of the order but said that these orders or treaties could be self-enacting and that certain criteria
  " laid down by the European Court for determining whether or not a particular treaty provision is directly applicable are not always easy to apply in practice."
  The Committee commented:
  " in the absence of any information in the Orders about the provisions of the relevant treaties or any indication of which of these provisions might be held to be directly applicable, it was difficult for Parliament to appreciate the significance of passing the Orders."
  Indeed, it was. The Committee also staated that in future orders the memorandum given to Members would provide the House with information concerning directly applicable legislation by the courts.
  That did not give information to the general public. Nor did it mean that the House was much the wiser about the order. In a previous debate on 25 April 1977 complaints were made to the Minister who replied to the debate. At that stage, and even subsequently, the explanatory memorandum did not tell the House, or any reader of our debates, the purport of the order. It was merely stated that such and such a treaty was being designated a treaty under section 1(3) of the European Communities Act. The public were not told what the treaty did. On 25 April 1977 the Minister said:
  " The Department will provide fuller explanatory memoranda to accompany future orders so as to help the House to the best of our ability."
  That was an undertaking.
  In the same debate another Minister said:
  " I believe that it may best be done by explanatory memoranda, but I am sure that he does not want me "—
  " he"is me—
  " to try to answer him immediately. We shall examine the matter and come back to the

  1063
  House with an answer on that point.—[Official Report, 25 April 1977; Vol. 930, c. 961–989.]
  Surely those two undertakings are applicable, as was a similar one on a not unrelated subject on 28 November 1977, of which my right hon. Friend is well aware.
  The undertakings did not bear very much fruit. The latest emanation of the Definition of Treaties order that we had last week—Draft Communities (Definition of Treaties (ECSC Decision on Supplementary Revenues) Order 1979—retained at least several of the undesirable features. Indeed, it contained two additional undesirable features. It was putting the clock back.
  I referred to the explanatory note in the debate on Wednesday 7 March 1979, as hon. Members will see from column 8 of the Official Report for that day, but I do not have time to quote it now. The note gave the reader no idea of the nature of the order. It introduced a third lacuna as the Command number of the treaty was not quoted. If anyone wanted to read the treaty to ascertain what it was, he or she would not be able to get it as the number was not quoted.
  The Minister said that the number had not been allocated. If it had not been allocated and had not been printed, I submit that it was wrong for the order to be laid at that time. It could have come before us a few weeks later when the treaty was available.
  The note went on to state
  " This Order declares the Decision of the Representatives of the Governments of the Member States ".
  Apparently Ministers of the Crown had not been directly involved despite the fact that it was authorising a charge of £3·3 million over and above the treaty requirements of the European Coal and Steel Community. The undertakings were not fulfilled, and we had two additional curiosities that went the other way.
  The Minister tried to explain away the lack of Command number. He later said that he thought the matter—indeed, it was agreed at Luxembourg on 30 September 1978—had been agreed by the Energy Minister on behalf of himself and the Industry Minister. However, a recent question shows that the Energy Minister did not approve it. It turns out that it
  1064
  was approved by the Agriculture Council on 30 October 1978 under the so-called A procedure. It is not good enough that treaties entered into by Her Majesty's Government, even through the EEC, should be put through the Council when the Minister present is concerned with agriculture and the treaty relates to energy and coal and steel. This is a poor precedent. It might have been uncontroversial in that it was an aid procedure on that occasion, but it is wrong.
  In that debate I asked the Minister why a Government who were devoted to open government had not included the fuller explanatory memorandum. I said that it could hardly be a matter of court judgment and that, indeed, a full explanatory memorandum which could not give full, direct applicability could, if necessary, contain a note to that effect.
  The Minister could not give a satisfactory reply. Perhaps he did not think that I would turn up for the debate. He said:
  " I am sure that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not try to cast my mind back and confirm or deny my agreement on something that happened in the past."—[Official Report, Sixth Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c., 7 March 1979; c. 29.]
  It is an extraordinary statement for a Minister to make, particularly as he might have foreseen that this matter was to be raised.
  The last order voted money. There was a point of order about that last week. Mr. Speaker ruled that it was in order because of at least two precedents of Orders in Council voting money. But we have not had Orders in Council which vote moneys to the EEC, over and above the treaties into which we have already entered. This is a dangerous precedent.
  I wish to ask my right hon. Friend four questions. First, will he undertake to examine the whole of the ratification procedure, as it affects the Act and the powers and procedures of the House? I am sure that he will do that because the Procedure Committee is to report on that shortly.
  Secondly, will my right hon. Friend undertake now to fulfil the obligations of the explanatory memoranda, particularly as the Government are committed to open government, and explain why a commitment entered into two years ago has not been fulfilled and why the last order was so poor?

  1065
  Thirdly, will my right hon. Friend examine the question of direct legislative effect and how the public can be put on guard, either by notice in the explanatory memoranda or in the order?
  Fourthly, will my right hon. Friend look at the new procedure for voting money by statutory instruments from the Consolidated Fund direct to Brussels and the EEC? I am sure that he is already doing that.
  My Government, of whom I am proud and who are doing many good things, are devoted to open government. They must be open particularly in relation to the EEC. I know that my right hon. Friend wishes to fulfil that so far as it is in his power. These are matters which appear arcane in detail but which ultimately strike at the roots of the power of the House and at the British constitution. Unless we guard the frontiers, the rest is in danger.
  4.18 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): It was right for my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) to seek an Adjournment debate on these important matters. I welcome the opportunity of making a statement. There is some confusion. I hope that what I shall say will assist to dispel some of it. If I do not manage to cover all the ground, I promise that I shall seek to communicate further with him about his detailed criticisms, and I shall see whether there is some method of ensuring that my answers appear in Hansard because many other hon. Members are interested in these questions.
  My hon. Friend suggested that there are dangers that some of the decisions made under the Common Market procedures will be smuggled through the House. There are such dangers and we must guard against them. But my hon. Friend is one of the best guarantees that they are not smuggled through. As I have said before, he is a one-man scrutiny committee. I do not mean to disparage the Scrutiny Committee, but my hon. Friend is just as good. I am most grateful to him for raising the matter as he has.
  I should like to put some of these questions into a more general context. The procedures followed in the definition of
  1066
  treaties as Community treaties is prescribed in the European Communities Act 1972, which makes provision for the legal consequences which flow from United Kingdom accession to the European Communities.
  The Act defines Community treaties as being those treaties setting up the original Communities, treaties subsequently entered into by the Communities and treaties entered into by the United Kingdom which are ancillary to the treaties setting up the Communities.
  What kind of instrument is a Community treaty? My hon. Friend has often contended—he implied it again in his remarks this afternoon—that Community treaties are the equivalent of primary domestic legislation and are not treaties at all in many cases. There is a wide range of types of agreement and instruments involved, with great variations in their importance. Those of primary importance are a small minority. I shall have more to say on the handling of those. Some are of very short duration. Others might last indefinitely. Quite a few have no direct impact on the internal affairs of the United Kingdom. But that is no reason for not trying to establish the utmost rigour in our scrutiny of all these matters. Of the rest, most concern the actions of the Executive, while a very few call for changes in United Kingdom law or for a substantial payment from United Kingdom funds.
  The terms"treaty"and"international agreement"are general in character and include instruments which may bear any one of a considerable number of different titles. I say this because there is sometimes confusion about it. Others include protocol, exchange of notes, convention or accord. The title of a particular treaty has no bearing on its legal effect. All it does is to indicate the general nature of the treaty.
  The 1972 Act also defines the consequences which the recognition of a treaty, as a Community treaty, will have in this country. Section 2(1) provides for the direct applicability of the rights, powers, obligations and so on which derive from such treaties. Such enforceable Community obligations or rights become part of the law of the United Kingdom, and so become directly applicable duties or rights imposed or conferred on all the

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  subjects of the Crown. Section 2(2) of the Act establishes powers of subordinate legislation to give effect to Community obligations arising out of Community treaties. Section 2(3) of the Act provides for expenditure to meet Community obligations created by Community treaties. Various law-making powers under existing United Kingdom legislation or similar powers of the legislatures of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar can be exercised to fulfil Community obligations under sections 2(5) and 2(6) of the Act In legal proceedings, the treaties are regarded as Community law, as provided for in section 3 of the Act.
  I agree with my hon. Friend that the ability to attract all these provisions to a treaty by means of an Order in Council which recognises the treaty as a Community treaty is a far-reaching power for Parliament to confer on a Government. We discussed many of these matters when the 1972 Act was going through the House of Commons. But this far-reaching power is tempered in certain ways and there are some restrictions upon it.
  Some parliamentary control of the Executive is provided for in section 1(3) of the Act, which provides that no treaty entered into by the United Kingdom after 22 January 1972 is to be regarded as a Community treaty for the purposes of the Act unless it is specified as such in an Order in Council which must be approved by affirmative resolution in each House of Parliament. Moreover, where subordinate legislation is required in the United Kingdom to give effect to a treaty, such regulations are made under section 2(2), and Parliament has an opportunity to consider them.
  I fully accept what my hon. Friend said about the not always adequate provisions made under these arrangements. None the less, there are some parliamentary precautions which are available and which are used.
  My hon. Friend asked whether treaties, sometimes of considerable importance in their own right, should be subject to legislative procedures which we should regard as suitable only for subordinate legislation. I have considerable sympathy with his view, which was put forward in the debates when these matters were before us some years ago.
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  These procedures were laid down in the 1972 Act and, like it or not, the United Kingdom's accession to the European Communities created new obligations and demands for the Executive and legislature of this country. Over the years we have been seeking to try to accommodate this momentous change in our constitutional position to our older and, some of us believe, better practices. We are not always successful in doing that, but we are seeking to pursue that end. New solutions had to be sought and clearly we should try to found them on the established practices and laws of this country.
  There are other precedents for the procedure which was adopted in the particular instance to which Mr. Speaker referred in his statement—for example, an enabling Act with ensuing subordinate legislation.
  The Act has made some attempt to achieve a solution to the problem of ensuring that Community treaties can be given effect in United Kingdom law while at the same time ensuring a degree of parliamentary control over the creation of new obligations.
  I assure my hon. Friend and the House that the Government approach their duties under the European Communities Act with a considerable sense of responsibility and almost of trepidation. There are many pitfalls, as we know from many of the debates which have taken place in the House. For example, we recognise that an Order in Council introduced under section 1(3) of the Act, which defines as a Community treaty a treaty of fundamental importance, could not be debated upstairs. Our practice has been and will continue to be to bring such important orders to the Floor of the House, if necessary, in prime time so that they may be given the necessary consideration.
  I ask my hon. Friend and the House to recognise that where an order concerns a Community treaty which can justifiably be regarded as the equivalent of domestic subordinate legislation it would be right to continue to take such an order in Standing Committee and to proceed on that basis until we have a further general review of the situation.
  In my opinion, the House of Commons, having passed an Act such as the 1972 Act in the circumstances in which it was passed—it went through the House and

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  the other place without any amendment whatsoever—it would be a peculiar state of affairs in the history of our Parliament if we said that that Act was to be unreviewable. I am not taking that attitude at all. I think that we shall have to look afresh at many of these matters. Whether they will be dealt with by a review of the Act or some of its consequences is another question.
  My hon. Friend asked some specific questions about the order. As I said, I should like to reply to him in detail. He mentioned several of these matters in the debate upstairs. I have had a fresh look at the matters that he raised in Standing Committee. In respect of many of the matters that he raised, there is often an explanation that both my hon. Friend and the House will find reflects a different complexion from that which might first have been thought.
  As I said at the beginning, I shall be most happy to reply in detail to all my hon. Friend's questions. I hope that I have left myself a minute or two to return to the more general questions which he put to me at the end. I shall not reply in categorical terms to each of them. As he rightly said, some are matters which will come back to the House under the recommendations of the Procedure Committee, and of the Scrutiny Committee, which has been looking at these questions.
  My hon. Friend asked me further about the explanatory memorandums and how much information they gave to the House and the country. I again acknowledge to him that I think that one of the difficulties the House has is the way we get the information. If he will give me the opportunity of sending him the details, I
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  can indicate to him that we have sought to carry out our earlier undertakings. I should have thought that considerable improvement had been achieved, although I have no doubt that there is further progress to be made.
  I shall certainly study this whole question afresh in the light of what my hon. Friend has said. I assure him that the Government do not regard as satisfactory the procedures under which we have to deal with these matters. We are dealing with an entirely novel situation in the history of the British Parliament and us relationship with outside institutions, at a time when the pressures on our own parliamentary time are very great. But that is not a reason for neglecting this important question.
  As I have said on other occasions, Brtish entry into the European Community marked the biggest constitutional change that we have attempted in this country for generations. It is far bigger than anything else that we have debated in the House, certainly since the war. I make no claim that we have yet solved the problems. What I do claim is that the Government are seeking to take note of the criticisms from my hon. Friend—and, indeed, from the Scrutiny Committee and others who have been considering this matter. Whether we shall have to turn to a larger review in the future is another matter. I believe that that also cannot be excluded in the light of what we have learnt from experience.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes to Five o'clock.

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