Sitting of 23 January 1979

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
CHESHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
COUNTY OF MERSEYSIDE BILL [Lords] (By Order)
EAST KILBRIDE DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL (By Order)
WEST MIDLANDS COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  WEST YORKSHIRE BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    British Exhibition Contractors Association
    Mr. Neubertasked the Secretary of State for Employment what increase in unemployment he estimates will result from Her Majesty's Government's sanctions against the British Exhibition Contractors Association.
    The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Harold Walker): None. Discretionary action against companies is no longer taken.
    Mr. Neubert: Does the Minister recognise that, if the Government had persisted in sanctions against the British Exhibition Contractors Association, all official work would have been placed with foreign contractors and inevitably British men would have been made redundant? May I turn to another of the Government's punitive policies? Does the Minister realise that at a time when unemployment is the second highest for January since the war, the safeguard regulations safeguard investment and jobs and should be upheld by any Minister who represents the interests of employment?
    Mr. Walker: I shall deal with the hon. Member's second question first. I do not wish in any way to minimise the seriousness of unemployment. However, the hon. Member must recognise that January is the worst month of the year. Serious as the figures announced today are, they are significantly lower than the figures were at this time last year.
    As to the first of the hon. Member's questions, I must tell him that I do not answer hypothetical questions. The behaviour of the Opposition when they attempted to pull the plug out of the Government's pay policy was irresponsible. They must carry a heavy share of the responsibility for what is now happening.
    Mr. Hayhoe: Does not the Minister realise that the real attack upon the Government's pay policy is coming from his hon. Friends below the Gangway? Is it not absurd to suggest that the vote of the

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    House on sanctions had any significant effect on the present pay demands and industrial unrest?
    Mr. Walker: If the hon. Member believes that, he will believe anything. By their repeated and sustained attacks on the Government's pay policy, culminating in the defeat of sanctions, the Opposition are heavily responsible for the present state of industrial relations.

    Health and Safety at Work etc. Act
    Mr. Greville Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he is satisfied with the operation of section 6 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. John Grant): I am generally satisfied with the operation of section 6 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act, but I am informed by the chairman of the Health and Safety Commission that the matter is of course kept under review in the light of the Health and Safety Executive's enforcement experience.
    Mr. Janner: Is it not correct that there have been practically no prosecutions under this crucial section, despite the fact that manufacturers, designers, importers and suppliers are still marketing goods which are dangerous for use by other people at work?
    Mr. Grant: There have been about 50 prosecutions. I do not think that we should try to measure the effectiveness of legislation by the number of prosecutions. That might be a good measure of the prosperity of lawyers, as my hon. and learned Friend will agree, but it is not the right way to measure the effectiveness of legislation.
    Mr. Madel: As section 6 requires that there is extensive research before a substance is marketed for industrial use, are the Government satisfied that imported substances from EEC countries undergo as rigorous research as they would if they were manufactured here?
    Mr. Grant: I am assured by the chairman of the Commission that the same conditions or qualifications and the same tests are applied to imported substances as to manufactured goods and substances from this country.
    Mr. Cryer: Does not the Minister agree that more action needs to be taken before goods are in the distribution chain? So often, we find that defective goods are on sale and perhaps on the point of causing injury before action is taken. Could section 6 be a real means of ensuring that imports are properly controlled by perfectly valid and legitimate means? Should we not now exercise it? Will he pass on these views to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade?
    Mr. Grant: Yes, I will certainly pass on those views. If my hon. Friend is suggesting that there should be more examination at the port of entry, that would involve a considerable extension of the Health and Safety Executive's resources.

    Unemployed Young Persons
    Mr. Tim Smithasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many young people were unemployed at the latest available date.
    The Under Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. John Golding): At 12 October 1978, 141,885 young people under 18 years of age were registered as unemployed in Great Britain.
    Mr. Smith: Is not the figure for youth unemployment still unacceptably high, especially as the youth opportunities programme has now been going for some time? When does the Minister expect to be able to make a statement about the review of the programme to which he referred late last year?
    Mr. Golding: The youth opportunities programme is proving very successful. All the reports from the Manpower Services Commission show that we are on target. The figures that I have quoted include some not covered by the Government commitment to school leavers.
    Mr. Gerry Fowler: Will the youth opportunities programme fully achieve by 1st April this year the targets originally set for it? Will the balance of provision within the programme be that which was originally intended?
    Mr. Golding: We believe that the target set for Easter will be met, but we do not believe that the balance of the programme will be that forecast when the scheme was announced.
    Mr. Alan Clark: Is the Minister aware that considerable numbers of young people in Plymouth are unemployed because jobs in the catering and service industries which would otherwise be open to them are taken by citizens of the Common Market who come over on short term engagements, pay no tax and take off after making maximum use of the Health Service? We all know that the indirect effects of Common Market membership on unemployment have been disastrous, but would the Minister care to comment on the direct effects, such as those that I have just mentioned?
    Mr. Golding: I ask the hon. Member to talk to employers and hoteliers in Plymouth to rectify that situation.

    Technologically Advanced Industries
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Employment what steps he is taking to create employment in technologically advanced industries.
    Mr. Golding: Success in achieving the objectives of the industrial strategy, for which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry has overall responsibility, should help provide an economic climate in which new jobs in the technologically advanced industries can be generated. The Department of Employment and the Manpower Services Commission are ensuring that the appropriate employment and training services are contributing towards the success of the strategy.
    Mr. Adley: Is the Minister aware that skilled engineers, particularly in the aerospace industry, who have found themselves particularly hard hit by the Government's incomes policy, are hardly likely to throw their hats in the air over that reply? Will he at least give a categorical assurance that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and all his Department fully support the Prime Minister's determination to sell the Harrier aircraft to China? This will create technologically advanced jobs in British industry. Will the Minister say what he is doing to bring that to fruition?
    Mr. Golding: The answer to the first question is "Yes". The other question is a matter for other Departments.
    Mr. Clemitson: Is not the corollary of creating employment in technologically advanced industries that employment in the more traditional and labour-intensive industries will decline and that, overall, there will be a decline in demand for employment, particularly in manufacturing industry?
    Mr. Golding: We believe that it is absolutely essential to develop technology in order to cerate wealth, from which services and jobs can be provided elsewhere within the community.
    Mr. Banks: Is it not the case that many employers, even with today's unemployment figures, cannot find men with sufficient skills for the jobs they are able to offer? Does the Minister recognise that, unless differentials are altered to reward skills, the situation will get even worse?
    Mr. Golding: All the examination that I have made of what I recognise as a special problem of skill shortage leads me to believe that differentials are not the most important aspect of the question. The most important aspect is the insecurity felt by many craftsmen and technicians in the engineering industry compared with jobs in other occupations.
    Mr Lee: How many extra jobs does my hon. Friend think will be necessary to offset the effects of silicon chip technology during the next five years?
    Mr. Golding: Nobody can make a sensible prediction about that.

    Unemployed Persons
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the latest rate of unemployment.
    Mr. Arnoldasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest figures for unemployment; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Albert Booth): At 11 January, the unemployment rate in Great Britain was 6 per cent. and 1,391,220 people were registered as unemployed. On a seasonally adjusted basis, this results in an increase of 17,600. This is disappointing, but does not invalidate the picture that has emerged over the last 16 months of a general downward trend. However, we

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    must not relax our efforts to reduce inflation still further and improve our industrial performance. In the meantime, the special manpower measures continue to make a substantial contribution to alleviating the worse effects of the recession.
    Mr. Canavan: In view of such depressing statistics, which make these the second worst January figures since the war, and particularly in view of the further rise in the number of unemployed school leavers, is it not time that the Government started to implement the policies of the Labour Party and the TUC by introducing the 35-hour week, by lowering the retirement age, and by increasing public expenditure in order to provide better social services and also more jobs?
    Mr. Booth: The figures that I have quoted represent a drop of 81,000 on the seasonally adjusted figures of last January and 94,000 on the crude total figure. They should be seen in that perspective. The numbers of unemployed school leavers—there is a slightly different pattern in Scotland due to the different school leaving age—have been declining rapidly, due to the success of the youth opportunities programme, of which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has just spoken. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend about the desirability of operating joint policies with the TUC and this is a matter of continuing discussion.
    Mr. Henderson: Whatever the Secretary of State's intentions, his reply must seem extremely complacent to the 190,000 people out of work in Scotland, which seems, as usual, to have been hardest hit by the latest troubles? If the present measures that he has introduced are not satisfactory, will he come back to the House with fresh measures to deal with the situation?
    Mr. Booth: I certainly did not intend to indicate any sign of complacency about unemployment anywhere in the United Kingdom, particularly in Scotland where we have been giving special attention to the effectiveness of measures run by my Department. Up to now, these have had a considerable impact. I have checked and find that nearly 136,000 people have been assisted by measures, including 56,000 helped by the temporary employment
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    subsidy. I will certainly continue to consider how these measures can be expanded, developed or refined to be more effective.
    Mr. Arnold: What advice is the Secretary of State giving to his parliamentary colleagues about the likely consequences for the unemployment figures of the complete collapse of the Government's pay policy? Does he still maintain, in the light of the figures he has given, that he has a unique and special relationship with the trade union movement?
    Mr. Booth: The advice that I give to colleagues about the collapse of pay policy, if that is the way that the hon. Gentleman wishes to describe it, is that this must have serious implications for problems in a number of areas. But these are matters to be taken very much into account when claims are being presented and when we are seeking to settle disputes. It should have been taken into account by this House when it voted on the issue of the Government's use of powers to deal with the pay policy situation.
    Mr. Flannery: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the lack of purchasing power of a large number of low-paid people is, in many ways, directly responsible for their inability to buy the goods that are being produced and will therefore create a great deal more unemployment? Does he also accept that we had many thousands of people lobbying hon. Members yesterday and complaining bitterly that, although they had supported us through thick and thin, they were taking home less than £40 a week and that they can no longer face that? Further unemployment will be on the agenda unless something is done quickly about that state of affairs.
    Mr. Booth: I accept that the purchasing power of a large number of very low-paid people is an important factor in the level of demand in our economy, but if we have a rapidly rising inflation rate it will reduce the effective purchasing power of those people. We need to be able to increase the supply of goods and services in order effectively to use increased demand to reduce unemployment, otherwise such an increase may result only in more imports being sucked in.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: Why has the Secretary of State avoided giving the House the true increase in unemployment, which, according to his Department, is 90,968? Does he not agree that, in view of our present strike-bound circumstances, that augurs badly for next month?
    Mr. Booth: I resent the suggestion that I have not given the House the true figures. I gave the figures that I was requested to give, together with the seasonally adjusted change—the figure normally taken by the House as the best indication of the way in which unemployment is moving.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Will my right hon. Friend tell the Governor of the Bank of England and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that their speeches yesterday implying cuts in public expenditure are completely unacceptable to the Labour movement, particularly as what they implied would be bound to increase unemployment and thereby add to the Treasury's expenditure? Will he explain that, on the contrary, we think that a 2 per cent. increase is not enough and that more public expenditure should be used to help in housing, health, pensions and the social services?
    Mr. Booth: I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that I am more likely to be guided by what he says than by the remarks of the two gentlemen to whom he referred. In discussions of the effects of public expenditure, I shall certainly express to any colleague the view that any reduction in public spending is likely to be detrimental to the employment figures.
    Mr. Boscawen: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, if every demand made upon us yesterday by the local authority workers is to be met, there will have to be a massive increase in the rate support grant for rural counties because otherwise unemployment will continue to rise in those areas?
    Mr. Booth: If some of the demands being advanced were met, it would mean a massive increase in the wages bill for a number of public service employees, including those in local authorities. That is one of the reasons why I and other Ministers are seeking to reach an agreement about solving some of the problems of lower-paid public servants without
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    bringing about the undesirable effects to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
    Mr. Rooker: Will my right hon. Friend institute an inquiry into the relationship between unemployment and illness, so that his Department is not stimulated to take that action following a forthcoming Granada Television programme?
    Mr. Booth: I see it as part of the role of my Department, working with the Health and Safety Executive, to watch carefully the relationship between unemployment and illness and to take steps to institute good health and safety practices to avoid loss of employment in that way.
    Mr. Prior: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I had intended to ask why he could not be more communicative and give up his Trappist vows? However, having heard his answer to his hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) about the Financial Secretary and the Governor of the Bank of England, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to maintain the silence that he has managed to maintain in the past few weeks while unemployment has gone from bad to worse?
    Mr. Booth: I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, as an ex-Minister, should not expect me to be influenced and guided by hon. Members in the first instance.

    Times Newspapers Limited
    Mr. Christopher Priceasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many representations he has now received about the continuing dispute at Times Newspapers Limited.
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Employment what further talks he has had with the management of Times Newspapers Limited.
    Mr. Booth: Since March last year I have received 32 letters about the dispute at Times Newspapers Limited from Members of Parliament, trade unions and others. I have also had discussions with the parties, most recently on 13 and 15 December when I held joint meetings to seek an agreed basis for further negotiations.
    Mr. Price: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, if Times Newspapers closes

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    permanently, the secondary unemployment effects could involve well over 10,000 people and that this is a serious matter? Does he recall that about 13 years ago, Lord Thomson pledged to the Monopolies Commission the whole of his considerable personal wealth in this country to continuing Times Newspapers in being? Since he has taken nearly all that personal wealth to Canada—[HON. MEMBERS: "He is dead."] Since nearly all that wealth has gone to Canada, is my right hon. Friend aware that the Government bear a heavy responsibility to make proper arrangements if the titles of Times Newspapers, which are all they own, are sold to someone else?
    Mr. Booth: I certainly accept that permanent closure of The Times would have serious secondary effects on employment in a number of places, including Odhams Press. It is, of course, the aim of the Government to seek to keep as many titles as possible in existence. I refer, of course, to newspaper titles. It is our aim to keep as many in existence as possible, in the Provinces as well as on Fleet Street. All my efforts so far to bring about an agreement between the parties have not succeeded, but we have defined a way in which negotiations could proceed to resolve the dispute and I urge the parties to implement that agreement.
    Mr. Whitehead: As a month has gone by since my right hon. Friend's last discussions with the management of TNL, is it not time to draw in the parties, because, with every week that goes by, more people are being dismissed and many of them were not parties to the original dispute? Is it not clear that we are losing two great national institutions in what is really a management virility symbol?
    Mr. Booth: I do not think that I could help in achieving my hon. Friend's first suggestion by endorsing his second proposition. The dispute is very complicated and it is only too easy to apportion blame to various parties. That is not what I am trying to do. We have agreed a way of proceeding to negotiate to remove many of the barriers to the recommencement of publication of The Times. That is what I want to do as speedily as possible.
    Mrs. Knight: Is the Secretary of State aware that, in many parts of the world, The Times, because of its special tradition,
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    is regarded as very much more than a newspaper and that its continued nonappearance is doing great harm to Britain as a whole?
    Mr. Booth: Yes, I accept that, and I would regret any dispute which prevented anything which carried the name of good British products and British contributions abroad from continuing. We shall not see The Times back in production, in the way in which the hon. Lady and I would wish to see it produced, without resolving this industrial dispute.
    Mr. Corbett: Is not the main reason why The Times is not being published that the management has gone on strike? With the support of Conservative Members, will the Secretary of State summon the chief executive of that newspaper and instruct him and his colleagues to end this strike as a contribution to settlement of at least one of our industrial disputes?
    Mr. Booth: No. I do not think that I shall summon the unions or the management to end the dispute, but I will call the attention of my hon. Friend, and many others who are seriously interested in the dispute, to the degree of agreement that was reached in the talks in my Department. I know that my hon. Friend and others have some influence with the parties concerned and may help me to persuade them to go along the lines of that agreement.
    Mr. Prior: Is the Secretary of State aware that we support the true and real efforts that he has made to bring about a settlement to the dispute, and that we shall go on supporting him? If the time is ripe now for a fresh initiative, will he please take it?
    Mr. Booth: Yes, I will watch for any occasion when a direct initiative from me or from ACAS might produce an advance along the lines that I indicated previously.

    Wages Councils
    Mr. Maddenasked the Secretary of State for Employment when he intends to meet chairmen of wages councils.
    Mr. John Grant: My right hon. Friend has no present plans to do so.
    Mr. Madden: Will the Minister confirm that wages councils set the basic

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    rate for many thousands of low-paid workers in the private sector? Will be give a clear assurance that he will not call in or otherwise seek to delay any awards made by wages councils substantially in excess of current incomes policy guidelines?
    Mr. Grant: I entirely agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's question. The wages councils have had their attention drawn to the Government's White Paper and now to the latest low pay provisions which the Prime Minister announced recently. We shall do no more than that.
    Mrs. Wise: Does not my hon. Friend agree that a little more action would be appropriate at the moment? Does he not further agree that those wages councils which fail to take advantage of the provisions for low-paid workers should be specifically and quite definitely reminded of these provisions?
    Mr. Grant: We do not intend to interfere with the independence of wages councils in that way. The provisions which have been announced were targets. They were not binding on anybody.

    Northern Region
    Mr. Radiceasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he is satisfied with the level of unemployment in the Northern region.
    Mr. Golding: No. The level of unemployment in Northern region remains far too high, but we are determined to do all we can to reduce it substantially. The Government's special employment and training measures have so far benefited over 91,000 people in the region.
    Mr. Radice: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. How does he account for the increase in unemployment in the Northern region over the past month? How much of it was due to the road haulage dispute, if any?
    Mr. Golding: It is too early for me to be able to state the reasons for the redundancies which have been declared and which have led to that increase in unemployment.
    Mr. Silvester: On a day when, for instance, there is still hardly any movement out of the Manchester and Liverpool docks, and hardly anything going into
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    the Winsford and Kirkby districts, will the Minister recognise that in the North-West region and in the Northern region, and in all the regions affected by regional unemployment, the present stoppages are causing more unemployment than anything the Government have yet done?
    Mr. Golding: That does not arise from a Question on the Northern region.
    Mr. Loyden: When will my hon. Friend recognise that the policies being followed by the Government in relation to regional and general unemployment are simply not working? When will the Government adopt policies as outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) in order to deal with the problems of the North-West region and the Northern region, where private enterprise is closing down factories and creating redundancies at an alarming rate?
    Mr. Skinner: Having taken the money.
    Mr. Golding: The Government are aware of the problems faced by the regions in this country and have pursued their regional policy because of that.
    Mr. Brittan: If the Minister is not able to give us the information today, will he make an early statement to the House about the number of people in the Northern region who are unemployed as a result of the present industrial disputes, and indicate the number of people who have lost their jobs permanently as a result of those disputes? Will he also accept the fact that today there is no significant improvement in the position, in spite of the code of the Transport and General Workers' Union, and that secondary picketing continues particularly in respect of petroleum sites on Teesside?
    Mr. Golding: If I were to write to all small employers in the Northern region, asking them for the reasons for the redundancies which have been declared, there would be an outcry from the Opposition for a further inquiry. I do not think that it is possible to give details month by month of the reasons for the redundancies, and it will not be possible in this case.

    Manpower Services Commission
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many

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    people are employed in the Manpower Services Commission; and for how many people they are providing some kind of employment.
    Mr. Harold Walker: I am informed by the Manpower Services Commission that at 1 December 1978, it employed some 25,600 staff. The MSC is responsible for the operation of the public employment and training services, and of certain programmes of special measures introduced by the Government to combat unemployment. These include the youth opportunities programme and the special temporary employment programme. As such, the MSC serves the entire working population of some 26·5 million people.
    Mr. Miller: Will the Minister answer the question? How many people are involved in these programmes? Does he not agree that those employed at the MSC and the people on those programmes should be added to the true figure of those put out of work by a combination of the Labour Government and the union activities?
    Mr. Walker: I answered the hon. Gentleman's question. I will now try to answer his other and different question by saying that I thought the Opposition were fully in support of the Government in introducing a programme of special measures to diminish the effects of unemployment. Currently, 255,000 people are benefiting from those programmes.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: As the job centres are working successfully at this time of high unemployment, will my hon. Friend encourage all employers to use the job centres, and to notify them of job vacancies, rather than going to the private agencies?
    Mr. Walker: I welcome what my hon. Friend said, because it is now becoming clear that the recent substantial investment in job centres has had a significant effect on employment placing. If we could place the people seeking jobs in their work one day earlier than might otherwise have been the case, that would result in a saving of production time which would be in excess of what is lost in the industrial disputes in an average year.
    Mr. Ridley: Could some of the 25,000 people be employed to draft the Bills to ban secondary picketing straight away, so
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    that this House can make some contribution to increasing the number of people employed?
    Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman has shown once again his cynical indifference to the plight of the unemployed and his abysmal misunderstanding of the problems.

    Intermediate Areas
    Mr. Sainsburyasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the average level of male unemployment in intermediate areas.
    Mr. Golding: At 7 December 1978, the latest date for which figures are available, the number of males registered as unemployed in the intermediate areas was 175,345, a percentage rate of 6·4.
    Mr. Sainsbury: Is the Minister aware that in Hove and Brighton the male unemployment level is higher than the average level in the intermediate areas? How, in those circumstances, does he justify the wide range of Government incentives—including those under section 4 of the Development of Tourism Act 1969, recently extended to intermediate areas, and others operated by his Department—being available in areas with lower unemployment than Hove and Brighton?
    Mr. Golding: The designation of assisted areas is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, and I will draw the hon. Gentleman's views to his attention. Unemployment is only one of the factors taken into account in deciding which areas shall receive assisted area status. That has been true not only of this Administration but also of the last Conservative Administration.
    Mr. Noble: With regard to the cotton textile industry, which is largely in an intermediate area in the North-West, will my hon. Friend tell us by how much unemployment has increased among textile workers arising from the inefficiency of the industry in the face of competition from the Common Market, where our balance of trade deficit last year increased by 400 per cent. compared with the preceding year? Will my hon. Friend approach the Department of Industry with a view to setting up, as a matter of

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    urgency, a sector working party for that industry?
    Mr. Golding: Knowing my hon. Friend's concern for employment, not only in his constituency but throughout the North-West, I shall draw his views to the attention of the Secretary of State for Industry.
    Mr. Bulmer: Since the outlook for jobs in the intermediate areas is being made worse daily both in the short term and in the long term by the current round of trade union actions against Government policy, why did the Government not feel able to trust the unions to bargain responsibly in the first place?
    Mr. Golding: There are two sides to a bargain. The difficulty that the Government faced was the vote by the Opposition against sanctions before Christmas.

    Government Measures
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Employment what further measures he has for reducing unemployment; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Booth: Consideration of a programme of measures for 1979–80 is at an advanced stage.
    Mr. Skinner: Is it not apparent to my right hon. Friend and others in the Cabinet that, as free competition could not solve unemployment, and as bribing private enterprise to the tune of £12 million a day is not solving the problem, the only way out is to plan unemployment away completely? Does he agree that the proposals laid out in the Labour Party's draft manifesto, namely, the 35-hour week, planning trade, restoring cuts in public expenditure, early retirement and mandatory school grants are the only way forward? If my right hon. Friend takes these on board, urges his hon. Friend sitting next to him to vote for them on the National Executive and challenges the Tories, we might get back into power in order to plan unemployment away.
    Mr. Booth: I am highly interested in my hon. Friend's manifesto proposals, as I am in those of other members of the National Executive, including my colleague in my Department. But we have considerable experience in this Government of the exent to which we can use special measures, including those that my
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    hon. Friend calls bribes. We have experience on which to judge whether we want to include more extensive measures of planning, including planning agreements, in an election manifesto with a view to dealing with specific employment problems.
    Mr. Haselhurst: Do the Government's plans for dealing with unemployment in 1979–80 which are at an advanced stage, take account of the likely cuts in public expenditure which the Prime Minister seemed to indicate would be necessary?
    Mr. Booth: No, they are not based on propositions for cuts in public expenditure. They are based upon ways in which we might make more effective some special measures that we are already running, and upon introducing other measures which will take over the role of the temporary employment subsidy, which has to be terminated as a result of the restrictions placed upon us by the EEC.
    Mr. Bagier: I represent an area which has one of the highest concentrations of unemployment in the country, namely, Sunderland. Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, if there is a continuation of vastly inflationary wage increases, it will only exacerbate the problems of places like Sunderland?
    Mr. Booth: If we have highly inflationary wage increases, particularly in the manufacturing industry sectors which put up our unit costs, they will certainly seriously exacerbate the situation.
    Mr. Prior: Is it not abundantly clear to the Secretary of State from all the questions that have been asked today by his own supporters that they are absolutely split on their policy? Is he not aware that the Government are being constantly undermined by the Left wing of the Labour Party? We have now had five wasted years in which unemployment has got steadily worse. Have we not now reached the end of the road for the present Government?
    Mr. Booth: No. What is clear from the questions that have been put to me this afternoon is that my hon. Friends are deeply concerned about the continuing problem of unemployment, about the effectiveness of measures which we have already introduced, and about finding

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    ways, including better planning, of bringing about a return to full employment in this country.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Mr. Mike Thomasasked the Prime Minister if he will list his public engagements for 23 January.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): This morning I attended and addressed an industrial strategy conference organised by the Trades Union Congress to review the progress of the electronics sector working parties. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
  Mr. Thomas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House will support his firm reaffirmation this morning of the Government's policy on inflation and his statement about the continued application of pay limits, productivity bargains and help for the low paid? Is he further aware that this formula cannot work for the public sector if those workers see that every private sector group that enters into a strike achieves its objectives, often with the active support of the Opposition?
  The Prime Minister: My contribution to a very good conference this morning—and it was composed of a number of representatives working in microelectronic industries—was to emphasise two points. The first was that, if firms are to plan four or five years ahead with their new investment, it is necessary that inflation should be low. That demands, among other things, moderate wage settlements. The second was that higher productivity and a willingness to change, retrain, and move into these new industries is essential if Britain is to take advantage of them.
  On the last part of the question, of course the private sector is in a different position from the public sector. There is at least some operation of market disciplines in the private sector and people can lose their jobs, as indeed they are losing them at present, especially in industries where they price themselves out of work. The difference between that and the public sector is that nobody so far
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  has lost his job as a result of wildly inflationary wage increases over previous years. It is essential to be absolutely frank, and I must point out that there are limits to what the Government are prepared to ask Parliament to vote in the way of votes for public expenditure. Therefore, if more money is taken out in higher wages because of the comparisons to which my hon. Friend correctly draws attention, there is less money for the services which the public employees are there to provide. That is an inescapable truth.
  Mrs. Thatcher: Is the Prime Minister aware that there are more people on strike now than when we debated this matter this time last week? At that time we made an offer to him to support him should he bring forward legislation to deal with picketing, the closed shop and secret or postal ballots. The Prime Minister said that he did not like secondary picketing, was not a closed-shop man and would prefer to have more secret ballots. Therefore, does he propose to take up our offer of support for legislation for the future? Also, will he do anything to assert the right of ordinary people to carry on working without interference?
  The Prime Minister: The Leader of the Opposition has raised a number of important questions. However, I do not think that legislation on postal ballots or on picketing would do anything to affect the fact that there are more people on strike this week than there were last week. Although she may advance these remedies for particular purposes, they would not affect that situation. As regards the present situation, I assert very clearly, as I always have done, that everyone has the right to work and everyone has the right to cross a picket line. It is not a sacred object. If, when people are stopped—if they choose to stop—they desire to go on, there is nothing in the criminal law or the civil law to stop them from carrying out their duties. I hope that they will so do.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I asked the Prime Minister what steps he proposes to take to assert that right, because that right is not being honoured at present. But if the right hon. Gentleman has no immediate proposals, will he at least persuade the Attorney-General to do what the Attorney-General in the 1970–74 Government did—make a clear statement about

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  what the law of picketing is, particularly as it has been changed by the 1974 and 1976 legislation?
  The Prime Minister: I shall consider that suggestion by the right hon. Lady. But the law of picketing is well known. It is clear. It has been frequently stated. It is for the police to take action if complaints of intimidation, threats and, obviously, violence are made to them. I hope that the police will carry out their responsibilities in this matter if they see any cases of intimidation or threats of any sort.
  Ms Colquhoun: Will my right hon. Friend tell us where he and members of his Government were yesterday when the low-paid workers came to see them in this House? Surely we have not reached the stage when they consider themselves too good to rub shoulders with the workers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  The Prime Minister: I can assure my hon. Friend that I think that I have known as many workers in Britain as she has known, and for a long period, and I rub shoulders with them very often and will continue to do so. I think that I know what a great many of them are feeling at present. They are feeling that a great deal of what is going on is totally unnecessary and should be stopped.
  Mr. Gordon Wilsonasked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 23 January.
  The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas).
  Mr. Wilson: Will the Prime Minister try to take time off today from his other troubles to look at the drastic increase in unemployment in Scotland, where the number has risen by 18,500? Even allowing for the fact that many of these are school leavers, Scotland seems to be the worst affected area of the United Kingdom. Will he, therefore, say whether the Government have any intention of honouring the promise that they made at the last election to give economic powers to the Scottish Assembly to make it a powerhouse for Scotland? Will he seek to transfer those powers from the
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  Treasury immediately after the referendum?
  The Prime Minister: The position is that seasonally adjusted unemployment in Scotland, which is generally regarded as the best trend to look at, was stable or falling throughout 1978. That is the truth of the matter. There has been an increase this month, which is due partly to normal seasonal factors and to the flow of school leavers at Christmas. Therefore, I think that we can take comfort from the fact that the rate of unemployment has been declining steadily over the past 12 months. But, of course, the hon. Gentleman will know better than I about the adverse weather conditions which have existed in Scotland, which have had an impact on unemployment.
  As regards giving additional economic powers to the Scottish Assembly, the Act is quite clear on the powers of the Assembly, and it would be quite foolish to say that we intend to change that.
  Mr. Robert Hughes: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, in a very difficult industrial situation, the way in which the Leader of the Opposition and her cohorts vent their spleen on strikers and spew bile into the situation can only exacerbate this very difficult situation? Would it not be much better to concentrate all our efforts on finding constructive ways in which we can assist the lower paid?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I agree that it is far better that we should try to do this. Indeed, in my speech last Tuesday, I put forward certain proposals, which stretched over the whole range of the public service and the private sector.
  Concerning public sector employees, a very fair proposal has been made to study the conditions and pay of public service workers to see how far they are comparable with those of other workers. That offer should be taken up. In conjunction with the pay negotiations that are now being undertaken, I believe that it will both do justice to the local government workers and, at the same time, enable the Government to continue with the primary task of overcoming inflation, and not increasing the money supply in order to pay out confetti wages which would have no value at all.
  Mr. Mates: Will the Prime Minister take time today to have a discussion with

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  his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the intimidation which accompanied yesterday's action by the National Union of Public Employees, whereby a school which many of my constituents attend was forced to close although the headmaster and all the teachers were determined to carry out their statutory obligation to educate our children? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that the headmaster was told that, if that school opened, there would be heavy picketing of both the teachers and the children—[An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish."]—and that his school would be indefinitely blacked? How does this match up with the Prime Minister's oft-proclaimed boast that only his Government can come to terms with the trade unions?
  The Prime Minister: I have never made that last remark. What I have always said and continue to say is that I believe that the trade union movement would work with any Government of this country. That has always been my approach and my principle on the matter.
  Of course, I do not have details of the school to which the hon. Member has referred. He did not name it—probably very properly. However, I really do not see why anyone is forced to cease work in this situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  Mr. Mates: May I tell the right hon. Gentleman why?
  The Prime Minister: I am using the word that the hon. Gentleman used. Everyone in this country is entitled to cross a picket line if he disagrees with the arguments that are put to him. There is nothing to stop any citizen—I would not hesitate to do it myself—from crossing a picket line if he believes it to be right to do so.
  Mr. Fernyhough: When my right hon. Friend replied to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas), he said that this morning he met representatives of the microelectronics industry. Will he please tell me whether at that meeting there was any discussion about Inmos, and where the factories that will arise from this industry are to be situated?
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  Secondly, will my right hon. Friend promise me that he will send to the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition a copy of annex 6 to the Royal Commission's report so that she can see how useful legislation is in relation to industrial disputes?
  The Prime Minister: There was no discussion at the TUC conference which I attended this morning about the situation of Inmos, although there was support for the Government's decisions to give it financial backing. As I think my right hon. Friend knows, the headquarters will be at Bristol, but the factories to which he refers—they, of course, will provide by far the overwhelming proportion of the employment—will be in the development areas, although I believe that the sites have not yet been chosen.
  As regards the impact of legislation on trade unions and on the behaviour of individuals, I have always expressed my scepticism about its efficacy. Indeed, we have had practical experience of it. There do come times when a nation's patience may run out, and then, despite the unwisdom of the legislation, it might be shackled upon the trade unions, to the overwhelming dislike of the country in the long run and, I believe, to a great disintegration of our society.
  Mr. Brotherton: Will the Prime Minister today make arrangements to meet his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and tell him two things—first, that the complacent statement made by the right hon. Gentleman in the House yesterday, particularly on the subject of animal feeding stuffs, was quite intolerable and, secondly, that the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is a member of the Transport and General Workers' Union, and that he is sponsored by the TGWU, in no way precludes the right hon. Gentleman from condemning violence and excesses against the law which have been perpetrated by various members of the union to which he belongs?
  Hon. Members: Where?
  The Prime Minister: I repeat again that, if examples of violence are known to the hon. Gentleman, and which can be vouchsafed, they should be brought to the attention of the police. I have repeated my hope that the police, who are

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  independent in these matters, will not shrink from taking action if there are cases that they believe should be brought before the courts. Knowing the police, I do not believe that they will hesitate to do so.
  As to the supply of foodstuffs, the situation varies from day to day. I am told—I can only repeat the advice that I am given by those concerned with these matters—that there seems to be some improvement today, including the supply of animal feeding stuffs and also the movement of salt and sugar, which apparently were in rather short supply. Indeed, the principal concern today, where I hope that those concerned will stop any picketing in respect of this matter, is about chemicals needed for pharmaceuticals. In some areas they are being held up. I know that the union itself is doing its best to ensure that they are moved. If it cannot ensure that, of course in the long run we simply cannot permit an interruption in the supply of raw materials for pharmaceuticals which are necessary for medicine, and we would have to take the necessary action.
  Several Hon. Members—
  Mr. Speaker: I shall call one more hon. Member from either side.
  Mr. Pavitt: In his grasp of the very real problems which face the lower paid after three years, will my right hon. Friend accept that the nurses are not just a special case but that they are an exceptional case? However, they have no intention of withdrawing their labour at this time. Will he bear that in mind in his economic policies in relation to the nurses?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, I shall bear that in mind. I would be very happy indeed to look into that matter in greater detail. But I am bound to say that every special case becomes an exceptional case until it runs right across the economy. In view of what is happening at present in the private sector in respect of pay negotiations and pay settlements, it is doubly essential that the Government
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  give no indication that they are likely to depart from a very strict application of their monetary and fiscal policies. I repeat that now, because that is bound to affect the extent to which we can assist public service employees in the way that they think is right.
  Mr. Prior: Is the Prime Minister aware that with regard to the crossing of picket lines, a number of people have the very real fear that their union cards will be taken away and that they will be excluded or expelled from a trade union without any recourse to a court of law, thereby losing their jobs without being able to claim damages for the loss of their jobs? Is he aware that this is a direct result of the legislation that was introduced by his own Government and that this is industrial relations legislation which he has put on the statute book? In view of what he himself has said today, would not it now be right to accept the offer from the Conservative Opposition to reform this piece of legislation, so that the practices which the Prime Minister says are correct can be followed?
  The Prime Minister: It is a matter of dispute between us as to whether the action taken by this Government has led to the kind of picketing to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. In our view, it is the case—certainly history bears it out—that this kind of picketing, but not in this intensive way, went on long before any amendments to the Act. It is a matter of very great doubt as to what extent the law can deal with this issue. I assume that the right hon. Gentleman is now moving his position. I understand that recent events may have made him do so. But up to 10 days ago he was saying that it was the policy of his party to reaffirm the existing law and to try to secure a voluntary code. I quite understand that he may have changed his mind, but at least it is only in the last 10 days that he has done so.
  Several Hon. Members—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am afraid that Question Time must come to an end.

HOUSE OF COMMONS (FREEDOM OF ACCESS)
Mr. Speaker: I have a brief statement to make. Yesterday the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton)—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—he has been held up—supported by the hon. Members for Hazel Grove (Mr. Arnold) and Hampstead (Mr. Finsberg), raised on a point of order the difficulties facing Members in making their way to the House, which in their case had resulted in their arriving late for Question Time. I undertook to look into the matter and to report to the House.
The Commissioner of Police informs me that there were about 25,000 members of the National Union of Public Employees and other unions in the vicinity of the House, of whom some 3,500 were in possession of letters inviting them to see their Member of Parliament. In such a situation it is always a problem for the police to identify Members and afford them the necessary priority: for example, by allowing them through streets closed to the general public. But I am assured by the Commissioner that every effort is made to do so, and will continue to be made in future.
I am sure that the House will agree that the Sessional Order requiring the police to keep free the
"passages through the streets leading to this House"
must be interpreted reasonably and that their responsibilities in this regard cannot extend, for example, to Hampstead, or, for that matter, to the end of the Embankment. I have written to the Commissioner of Police to thank him and his officers for the work that they have done.
Mr. Adley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of what you have just said, is not there a cause for some concern? You said that 3,500 people were in possession of letters inviting them to come to this House. It is my understanding that the authorities have done their best to restrict the numbers of people who come to see Members of Parliament during these vast demonstrations, so that the police and the authorities can have some sort of control. Are you yourself entirely satisfied that there are not Members of this House who are seeking deliberately to encourage large numbers of
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members of the public to come to the House just in order to create the kind of disturbance that most people wish to see not taking place?
Mr. Speaker: I wrote to my constituents, but in the event I was not able to meet them. Clearly, when there is a mass lobby such difficulties are bound to occur, because hon. Members do not consult each other before writing back to their constituents.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: May I thank you Mr. Speaker, for your remarks, and particularly the tribute to the police, so well deserved? Will you please include in your thanks and appreciation the Serjeant at Arms and his staff, and the trade unions which so well organised the lobby, and pay tribute to them for the way in which their members behaved?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has raised a very important point. I should tell the House that I also wrote a letter to the chief steward on the union side, who I understand was tremendously helpful in organising the lobby and ensuring that there was good order within our premises.
Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to you for your statement. I made it clear yesterday that in my comments I implied no criticism of the police. I also made it clear that I was not prevented from getting here. I was much more concerned, and still am, with the constitutional side of the problem. I do not think that the House had any complaints about those who came here. The problem is that of getting to the Palace. Further consideration needs to be given to the matter during the next two or three weeks to prevent a repetition of what happened yesterday to at least two hon. Members.
Dr. M. S. Miller: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of your statement about the difficulties yesterday, do I take it that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) will be sent a bill for the police escort that he had to the House?
Mr. Speaker: We all welcome an escort when we can get it.
Mr. Skinner: I should have thought that, knowing that a massive lobby was taking place yesterday—the Tories were talking about it for several days before—most hon. Members would think it sensible to use the Underground. Then, none of that palaver would have taken place.
On the more important point, Mr. Speaker, will you take on board once again the possibility of ensuring that when large lobbies arrive at the House all those with letters to hon. Members have improved chances to see their Members? It is well known that some hon. Members are not always too anxious to see them, but in order to ensure that those who come have a better chance, instead of being stuck out in the rain, could not many thousands be brought inside Westminster Hall, as was done when the disabled came to lobby? The people could be separated into segments and regions for hon. Members to see them. That would give a better opportunity for those who wish to see their Members to lobby their Members—even Cabinet Ministers. It would give people a better chance to get a message across after coming all that way.
Mr. Speaker: I say to both the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Finsberg) that their suggestions will of course be studied by those responsible for helping us with lobbies.
Sir Derek Walker-Smith: May I, from the Opposition Benches, respectfully associate myself with the tributes so well paid by the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) both to the conduct of the police and to those participating in the mass lobby, which resulted in such an orderly and friendly proceeding?

SUPPLIES AND SERVICES (SCOTLAND)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Bruce Millan): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on essential supplies and services in Scotland during the current industrial disputes.
Supplies of food remain, in general, adequate, especially fresh foods such as bread, milk, meat, fruit and vegetables. The main items in short supply, varying between localities, are sugar, salt, margarine
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and cooking fats, cereals and frozen foods.
The difficulties experienced with some food items have been reflected in the Scottish islands. Although there are shortages, no major or unusual problems have been reported. Supplies are reaching the Orkney and Shetland islands from Aberdeen, but there is a problem over catering supplies for Sullom Voe. Difficulties have arisen, too, over transport of supplies to Arran, but I am hopeful that these will be resolved following discussions between the chief executive of the district council and the local strike committee.
The agriculture industry in Scotland has in general been able to obtain adequate supplies for its needs, although the supply of animal feedingstuffs to the intensive production sector has been difficult. Liquid milk supply has remained satisfactory. Livestock markets for store and fat animals have continued, but at a reduced level. After an initial setback, the export market is now improving.
Bad weather has prevented some Scottish vessels from fishing, but most fleets have been operating. Virtually all landings have been sold and fish markets have been cleared, though at a slower rate than normal, by merchants and processors who have their own transport, On the whole, fish supplies are moving. But some fish processing plants have closed down because of distribution problems. About 760 fish process workers have been laid off, mainly at Aberdeen and Fraserburgh.
The effect on the Scottish economy is becoming increasingly serious. The interruption in the regular flow of raw materials and finished products has caused many firms to lay off workers and others to cut back production and concentrate on maintenance activities. To date, the estimated total of workers laid off is some 32,000 in manufacturing industry. This number is likely to rise sharply if the dispute continues. Small businesses are particularly badly affected and the flow of exports from manufacturing premises through the docks is severely curtailed.
Good contact has been established both centrally and locally with officials of the Transport and General Workers' Union and we are in frequent touch with them over the operation of the code of practice.

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The indications that I have yesterday and today are that the code of practice is increasingly being applied in Scotland.
Industrial action yesterday by other unions badly affected hospital and health services. In those parts of Scotland where ambulance men totally withdrew their labour—much of the West of Scotland and parts of Fife and Grampian regions—the police appear to have coped admirably with what was fortunately a very low level of emergency calls, and the community is once again much in their debt. In other areas ambulance men heeded their union's advice to ensure that essential services were not interrupted. Indications this morning are that in most areas the full normal service is being provided.
In general there were no laundry, portering or domestic services in hospitals and catering services were greatly reduced. Administrative and senior nursing staff helped to serve meals. Operating lists were reduced or cancelled and admissions restricted. Some outpatient clinics functioned. I understand that today hospital services are returning to normal, but the prospect of further industrial action remains.
Other services also were affected. Many schools in Borders, Fife, Grampian, Lothian and Strathclyde regions were closed, as were some elsewhere in Scotland, and a wide range of other services provided by local authorities were not functioning.
There were no serious effects on water and sewerage services as a result of the one-day strike. Some discolouration of water supplies was experienced, mainly in the west of the country. It was found necessary to direct some sewage into rivers.
I shall continue to keep closely involved in all aspects of the current disputes as they affect Scotland.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: Is the Secretary of State aware that the House will be very grateful for his statement, which at least accepts the seriousness of the situation facing industry, commerce and the whole community in Scotland?
First, as regards yesterday's strike in the public services, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that some hospitals were kept open only by the devotion of administrative
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staff, some of whom worked for 24 hours without sleep, and that such efforts could not cater for any prolonged disruption? In this connection, has the right hon. Gentleman noted the reported statement this morning by Ron Curran, the Scottish organiser of the National Union of Public Employees, that the union is planning to take out on more lengthy strikes key groups such as boilermen and telephonists, which would have a devastating effect on public services, particularly hospitals and schools? What contingency plans are being made to cope with such an alarming possibility?
Secondly, with regard to the serious problem facing the island of Arran, which the Secretary of State mentioned, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the problems stem from a road haulier on the island making public the fact that he had been invited to make payments to the strike committee for each lorry going on the ferry and had made such payments, and that since that disclosure a total ban has been placed on his lorries carrying even essential supplies, such as drugs to the local hospital?
Thirdly, is the Secretary of State aware of the enormous damage being done to education, particularly at an important examination time in Scotland, when we have had lengthy closures, partly owing to the weather, partly because of the oil shortage, and now because of the public service strike? Will he take all possible steps to ensure that in any future sporadic strikes by NUPE schools will be kept open as far as possible?
Fourthly, on the growing shortage of some items of food, to which he referred, can the Secretary of State report on the discussions with the Retail Consortium to ensure that pensioners and others unable to accumulate food will get special consideration in the distribution of what supplies are available?
Finally, is the Secretary of State aware that there has been some resentment at his own and his officers' response to reports of acute problems? To give just one example, last night I was advised of an urgent telex from the Edinburgh fruit market on 12 January appealing to the Secretary of State for help over secondary picketing, which was disrupting supplies. The response was a five-line letter—which I have here—from the Scottish Development Department dated 16 January and

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advising that the situation had improved—which it had not; the pickets are there this morning in greater numbers than ever—and adding that specific difficulties might usefully be taken up with the local strike committee. Is this not a negation of responsibility, and will not the Secretary of State at least confirm that in Scotland and England the Government and Parliament, and not local strike committees, are responsible for the maintenance of essential services?
Mr. Millan: On the question of food supplies, particularly to the elderly, I was in touch with the social work departments of the local authorities about this early last week. I have also been in touch with the Scottish Grocers' Federation, which has promised full co-operation in seeing that where there is hardship preference is given to elderly people and disabled people, who may not be as able as other citizens to fend for themselves.
I discussed the Edinburgh fruit market with the chief constable for Lothian region last Saturday. I understand that the position there has improved.
On the schools situation, I agree that it is extremely unfortunate that there should be this continued closure of schools, particularly as there were earlier closures because of the weather and difficulties over fuel supplies. I would certainly ask regional authorities to make every effort to keep schools open, even if this kind of industrial action should continue.
On the question of Arran, the situation is being discussed with the chief executive of the district council concerned and I hope that we shall get a satisfactory solution there. I accept, of course, that if essential supplies should be cut off it is the responsibility of the Government, ultimately, to see that such supplies get through to Arran. I have made that clear and I make it clear again. We shall see that that island is not cut off from essential supplies.
As for the hospitals, I mentioned the help that we got from administrative staff yesterday, but if there were prolonged disputes there would be very serious disruption. I understand that the unions concerned are meeting tomorrow. I should deplore it very much if they were to take decisions that had the effect, as
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one union official has been quoted as stating to be his aim, of evacuating major hospitals in Scotland. I think that would be absolutely deplorable behaviour, and I am sure that the people of Scotland as a whole would resent it very much indeed. But I hope very much that that kind of action will not be taken.
Mr. David Steel: What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the losses in foodstuffs, which he did not mention in his statement? I know that these have occurred in my area, certainly in meat and potatoes. What assessment has he made of the loss of exports, which he mentioned in passing but did not quantify? Thirdly, what directions or advice is he giving to local education authorities? Is he aware that in the Borders region all schools were closed, including those attended by my own children, where no strike action was contemplated? Surely this is an unnecessary measures if some schools can continue despite these difficulties.
Mr. Millan: This is, of course, a matter for the regional council. I think that the right hon. Gentleman ought to take it up first with the council. But if no industrial action is contemplated there is no reason at all why schools should close, and I would appeal to all education authorities to keep open as many as possible.
It is not possible to quantify the loss of exports, because it is not certain at the moment whether it is simply a delay in exports or whether in some cases export opportunities will be lost altogether. What I am saying is that the trouble in the ports is certainly having a substantial effect on exports, and that is a very worrying feature of the present situation.
I do not think that it is possible to quantify food losses, but the general situation in Scotland during the whole period of the strike is that the majority, at least, of fresh food supplies has been moving freely.
Dr. Bray: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, following representations from Transport and General Workers' Union officials and members of other trade unions, secondary pickets seem to have been withdrawn in Lanarkshire? I have checked this myself. Is he further aware that the statement by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) that

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there were cases of secondary picketing and extortion at Stevensons' dairy, Bellshill, is totally false? I checked myself at the dairy and have assurances from the manager that there have never been any pickets on the dairy. Is my right hon. Friend further aware that this kind of irresponsible statement by Members of the Opposition only aggravates the very strong feelings?
Mr. Millan: Some charges have been made about extortion which in the event have not been substantiated, but I have made the general statement, which I repeat here, that if there are suggestions of extortion or intimidation the proper course is to inform the police. I have been assured by the chief constables that they will pursue these questions quite rigorously. It is not any use presenting me with these allegations, particularly in these wide and rather unsubstantiated terms. The proper people to complain to are the police. I repeat that they will look into these allegations, and if they are substantiated I have no doubt at all that the Crown Office, the Lord Advocate and the local procurators will see that prosecutions take place.
Mr. Henderson: Is the Secretary of State aware that we welcome the fact that he has made this statement today, since this is the first chance that Scottish Members have had to question him on the situation in Scotland since the troubles began? Can he say a little more about the question of foodstuffs and food processing? Has he any information on the supply of containers, canisters and bottles, which has been a serious problem for the food processing industry? On the supply of food in the shops, are small grocers getting supplies as easily as large ones?
Finally, has the right hon. Gentleman any indications at this stage that he can usefully give the House that there might be a settlement on a regional basis in Scotland before too long?
Mr. Millan: I do not think that I can give any information on the last point. I understand that the possibility of regional discussions, which would mean Scottish discussions, follows from what happened yesterday during the national negotiations, but I really cannot comment on that.
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The question of containers for the food industry has been a problem. We have take up individual problems and in some cases have managed to solve them, but the situation is by no means completely satisfactory. Where difficulties are reported to us, we do our best to eliminate them, sometimes with success.
On the retail side of food distribution, I think that some small shopkeepers have suffered very badly compared with the larger supermarkets. Again, the situation is very patchy, but where there are particular difficulties we are very happy to try to solve them. In many cases we have been able to solve local difficulties.
Mr. William Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend give the House any estimate of the number of jobs likely to be lost permanently or otherwise if this strike goes on for another week or fortnight? Is he in consultation with the trade union leaders concerned, not on negotiation of the wage but directly on the effect of their action on other workers? What will his response be in respect of the rate support grant in the event of the local authorities offering a substantial wage increase to the lower-paid manual workers?
Mr. Millan: It is possible to make an offer now. Indeed, an offer has been made taking account of the low pay provisions. That is a considerable step forward for low-paid workers. There are also opportunities for a comparability exercise. These are matters best left to negotiation between the local authority representatives and the trade union representatives. On rate support grant, we have said—this is a general statement—that settlements outside the Government's guidelines and without Government approval will not receive RSG support.
I gave the figures for the effect on employment in my statement. The figures are likely to increase if the dispute is not settled. I am not able to say what the ultimate permanent effect will be, but there will be instances where those laid off will not be taken on again when the dispute is over. I have made that clear to the trade union concerned. I met regional officials and other officials of the Transport and General Workers' Union at the beginning of the dispute.
Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what reply he gave to the telegram sent to him by Rankin's Fruit Markets? As the right hon. Gentleman will know, that undertaking has a large number of shops and branches, and was in considerable difficulty.
Mr. Millan: Without notice I cannot say what reply was sent in response to that telegram. I have had a large number of telegrams and letters over the past few days.
Dr. M. S. Miller: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his calm and reasonable statement does not minimise the seriousness of the situation and contrasts markedly with the forecasts of doom, gloom and disaster coming from the Opposition? Will he take into account that public sector workers in Scotland will have to be concerned in the problems that we shall have in the days ahead in no less favourable a way than those in the private sector of industry, they being deeply involved as they are often low-paid workers?
Mr. Millan: What has been said about a comparability exercise is relevant to my hon. Friend's question. During any pay policy there are special problems about the relationship of the public sector to the private sector. What we have suggested on comparability represents a possible way forward. I am well aware of the trade unions' views in Scotland. During the lobby that took place yesterday I met senior officials from Scotland from the four unions concerned. We had a useful discussion about the various problems.
Miss Harvie Anderson: Will the right hon. Gentleman re-examine the position of exports? Will he give consideration to the exports awaiting shipment and the imports necessary to fulfil the present export orders within the time scale written into the contract? There is lamentable failure on both scores. In the end, that can result only in massive lay-offs and, more important still in the long term, no repeat of export orders from these quarters.
Mr. Millan: Some of the difficulties rest at the ports, and that is where there has been in particular the problem of secondary picketing. Yesterday's reports
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suggested that there may be some slight easing of the position at certain ports. I am anxious to ascertain whether we can get the code of practice fully implemented and secondary picketing much reduced. If that can be achieved, the problem of the ports will be considerably lessened. That will have its effect on exports. I am anxious about exports, because at the end of the day a loss of exports could mean a loss of jobs.
Mr. Welsh: There have been reductions and cancellations of hospital operations. Will the right hon. Gentleman give assurances on critical and necessary operations and outline the action that he will take should the situation worsen?
Mr. Millan: In an emergency, when the services are much reduced, it is possible to perform only emergency and essential operations that cannot wait. If such operations are allowed to take place, some restrictions on other operations will have to be put into effect. That is what happened yesterday. It is worrying. I said yesterday that if there were major disruptions of major hospitals in Scotland many patients would suffer and many operations would not take place. Even if these were not in the normal sense of the word emergency operations, there would be involved a considerable amount of pain, inconvenience and discomfort to patients. I should like that to be avoided.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Has my right hon. Friend yet had a report from the procurator fiscal on the tragic incident in which a picket in Aberdeen was killed? Will he follow up his remarks about having discussed with the representatives of public service employees the offer that has been made of an increase plus comparability? Taking into account the disruption that has been caused, we must not only condemn action that has led to tragic results in hospitals but deal with the root cause and follow up what seems to be a helpful suggestion and a constructive way forward.
Mr. Millan: Offers are now available for low pay payments and for comparability. I believe that they represent a way forward. I had a preliminary report from the police following the death of the picket in Aberdeen last week. My hon. Friend will know that reports to the procurator fiscal and the subsequent consideration of

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the reports are matters not for me but for my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate. I hope that the full explanation of the circumstances of that death will be made available as soon as possible. I shall pass on my hon. Friend's comments to my right hon. and learned Friend.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. If hon. Members will ask questions that are as brief as possible, I hope to call those who have been rising to be called.
Mr. Fairgrieve: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that my constituency of Aberdeenshire, West is heavily dependent upon the paper-making industry, and that the situation has deteriorated as a result of its reliance on such a large percentage of its raw materials being imported, there having been an effect both on goods coming out of the factory for export and on goods for internal use in the United Kingdom? The right hon. Gentleman probably knows that the two main newspapers in the area, The Press and Journal and the Evening Express, are probably more reduced in size than any other newspapers, for allied reasons. Does he appreciate that the position in Aberdeenshire, West has not improved; it has deteriorated?
Mr. Millan: I accept what the hon. Gentleman said. What he said about the paper-making industry applies to many other industries. Industries that are not at the top of the priority list as essential industries are suffering substantially. It is for that reason that we have had an increased number of lay-offs and difficulties about imports and exports. If we could reduce secondary picketing and get the code of practice fully implemented we could improve the situation, but we could not restore it to normality.
Mr. Watt: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what talks his emergency committee has been having with the union to introduce some rationale? In the North-East it is necessary for men to make a 140-mile round trip merely to get a permit to enable them to get stuff moved. Does he realise that the situation is deteriorating daily, as fish boxes are not being returned from the ports in the South? Secondly, slaughtering will have
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to stop because no salt is getting through to the slaughterhouses.
Finally, what does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do to recompense the hauliers for their loss of earnings during the strike? Will he ask his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to make a refund of road licence fees for the lorries that have been laid up for so long?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask for even briefer questions than that.
Mr. Millan: I cannot give any promises on compensation. We were in touch with the union about fish boxes, and I gather that the position at Aberdeen has improved slightly this week. Conditions tend to vary from one day to the next. Sometimes there is an improvement and a subsequent deterioration. However, I believe that there has been some improvement at Aberdeen. I shall consider the difficulties brought about by distance in the North-East.
Mr. John Home Robertson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that branches of the National Farmers' Union in my constituency are broadly satisfied with the relationship that they have with the TGWU in the present situation and that essential feedstuffs are geting through to farmers from sources not only in Scotland but from the Liverpool docks? However much the Opposition might like to have a crisis, there is not a total crisis as yet. Is my right hon. Friend interested to know that there are many lorry drivers in my constituency who would like to settle for 15 per cent., which is now being offered?
Mr. Millan: I gather that there are a number of drivers who would like to accept. It is a generous offer. It is well beyond the Government's guidelines. I know that there are some areas where local arrangements made between the NFU and the local union have worked well right from the start of the strike and where local difficulties have been settled at local level. Through my emergency arrangements we have maintained contact not just at regional level but at local level, and most of our contacts and the solution of most of the problems are taking place at local rather than at regional level.
Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Would the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State

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acknowledge that, but for the stupendous voluntary effort of countless individuals throughout Scotland yesterday, the effects of yesterday's strike would have been even worse than they are? Despite that, does he realise that such strikes affect the voluntary services, such as meals on wheels, and is it not crazy that it should be the old, the housebound and the sick who are suffering as a result of this industrial action?
Mr. Millan: I agree that it is a tragedy that the old and the sick should suffer in these situations. Unfortunately, when action of this kind is taken these sufferings are inevitable. I was particularly concerned that the unions' own recommendations to their members that they should maintain emergency services, for example in the ambulance service, were not always followed locally. Again, the situation yesterday was patchy. There were areas of Scotland where there was no strike action at all in the whole of the ambulance service, and the emergency and non-emergency services operated normally yesterday.
Mr. George Robertson: Will the Secretary of State continue to use his good offices and influence to persuade those presently on strike to go back to work? In doing so, will he remind them that the kind of so-called free collective bargaining in which some trade union members believe—a belief in which they are aided and encouraged by the Opposition—can lead only to lower living standards for everybody in the community, and especially the lower-paid?
Mr. Millan: I can only say that I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, who speaks from his own experience as a trade union organiser before he entered the House. The idea that free collective bargaining is a panacea or a help to the low-paid worker is not at all borne out by past experience. I believe that offers of the kind now being made to low-paid workers, of special payments and a comparability exercise, are a much more fruitful way forward.
Mr. Rifkind: Contrary to what the Secretary of State has said, is he aware that the Edinburgh fruit market has confirmed in the last half-hour that picketing is far more serious than it was previously and that his own efforts as Secretary of State have done nothing to ameliorate that?
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Will he indicate whether he, unlike the Home Secretary, has at least given advice to chief constables on ways of ensuring that members of the public have free right of access to property that they wish to visit, rather than that this should be at the whim of strike committees?
Mr. Millan: I do not believe that chief constables need that kind of advice from me. They are very well aware of the law on picketing in Scotland, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that I have discussed the situation with representatives of the chief constables in Scotland. They are well aware of the picketing law and of the respective rights of strikers and those wishing to work. I was informed that the code of practice of the TGWU had been distributed to policemen who are involved in these matters.
Mr. Alexander Fletcher: It has no legal effect.
Mr. Millan: The hon. Gentleman says that that does not have any legal effect. I know that absolutely, and so do the chief constables. They are really not quite as stupid as the hon. Gentleman apparently believes them to be. They are perfectly well aware of the situation and they know the rights and duties of pickets and of those wishing to work, respectively. I have discussed these situations with them and they are well content with the discussions that they have had with me. I will again look into the situation in the fruit market, but I did discuss this position specifically at the weekend.
Mr. Dewar: Does my right hon. Friend accept that there will be a very wide welcome for his information that the voluntary code on picketing is now being widely observed in Scotland? Will he join me in hoping that if, as would appear to be the case, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) has been energetically spreading stories about specific incidents that are not well founded, that hon. Member will withdraw them at a very early date? Secondly, will he urge particularly upon the lorry drivers in Scotland that if there is a settlement that is to any significant extent above the offer that is now on the table, it will make it very much more difficult to give as just a settlement to the lower-paid as I believe the trade union movement as a whole would wish?
Mr. Millan: I believe that those who are on strike in the road haulage dispute are not among the lower-paid in terms of their average earnings, and if we are to have special protection for the lower-paid it will mean that those who are not themselves lower-paid will have to exercise a certain amount of responsibility and restraint. If that does not happen, we shall simply have runaway wage demands and runaway inflation, which is not to the benefit of any member of the community. On my hon. Friend's first point, I have already told the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) that if he has specific information he should ensure that it is passed to the proper authorities. Being a law-abiding citizen, which I believe he is, no doubt he will have done that. We shall be interested to see the results.
Mr. Younger: Is the Secretary of State aware that those who allege that they have been and still are being required to pay money to pickets for going across picket lines have been told quite clearly that they will be blacked permanently if they complain to the police? What is the right hon. Gentleman able to do, as Secretary of State, to relieve them from that situation so that they can exercise their rights as citizens?
Mr. Millan: I believe that the unions have said that there will be no blacking of that nature, but the hon. Gentleman has been very free with his allegations. I have told him, and I tell him now, that if he has information he should pass it to the police, who I am sure will look into it.
Mr. Monro: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that milk is still not allowed to go by private hauliers from farms to creameries in South-West Scotland, and is he also aware that non-union drivers are not permitted to take livestock to the SMP slaughterhouse or to haul feeding-stuffs generally throughout the area? Is this within the code of practice?
Mr. Millan: I believe that some of the things of which the hon. Gentleman has spoken probably are not. If he will supply me with further details, I will look into them.
Sir John Gilmour: Will the Secretary of State ask his officials to pay particular attention to the information about increased secondary picketing that has
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been given to them today by the Fife and Kinross branch of the National Farmers' Union?
Mr. Millan: Again, I will look into it, but it is absolutely impossible for me to know exactly what is happening at any time everywhere in Scotland. There have been particular difficulties in Fife, because the strike committee there has been taking a very hard line on the code of practice. We have made representations there, and we are in touch with the union on the matter. If I have information on particular instances, I will see that my Department looks into them.
Mr. Fairbairn: Does the Secretary of State not consider that for a Government such as this one to have passed a law that enables anybody to victimise innocent citizens, and for that law to have to be interpreted by codes of conduct so that it is not too severe in its application, is an abominable condemnation of the Government? Does he appreciate that in my constituency there are farms—I will give him details—to which hauliers and contractors and grainsmen refuse to allow goods that belong to them to pass, despite the fact that they are accompanied by police officers, because of the threat by pickets that if they do so they will never get supplies when the strike is over? If I give the right hon. Gentleman details, will he act upon them?
Mr. Millan: Certainly, I shall act on any information that is supplied to me, but, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said a little earlier this afternoon, there is a perfect right for people to go through picket lines and there is nothing legally to stop them doing so if they wish to do so. On the law of picketing, I do not accept what the hon. and learned Member has said. Not for the first time, he shows a rather inadequate grasp of the law.

WATER SUPPLIES (NORTH-WEST ENGLAND)
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"to call attention to the dangers and hardships caused to thousands of families in Lancashire

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because of the unofficial strike of 600 workers in the Ribble division of the North-West water authority."
I can be brief, because the dangers and hardships of having no clean water, and the dangers of sewage, were well described last week by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill). I adopt my hon. Friend's argument in respect of the urgency in the case of another division, the North-West water authority.
The Pennine division settled yesterday on a general offer of 14 per cent. Almost immediately the neighbouring Ribble division, in which the bulk of my constituents live, came out on strike against 14 per cent. Therefore, besides the argument relating to hardship and misery which I advance, there is a need to inquire whether there is some kind of domino effect when each division takes up the struggle when another has settled.
In this weather it is appalling that anybody should be deprived of clean water, or indeed in some cases of water at all, and, furthermore, that people cannot get taps or pipes mended when they burst. The resulting sewage problem is a danger to public health. As it appears that further divisions are threatened because another division has settled, we should be told who, if anybody, is in control, and who is behind the matter. We need an urgent debate to enable us to find out.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) gave me notice before 12 o'clock this morning that he would ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"to call attention to the dangers and hardships caused to thousands of families in Lancashire because of the unofficial strike of 600 workers in the Ribble division of the North-West water authority".
I listened with great care to the hon. and learned Gentleman but, as he knows, it is not for me to decide whether the matter is to be debated. I merely decide whether it is to be debated tonight or tomorrow.
As the House knows, under Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take into account the several factors set out in the order but to give no reason for my decision. I regret that I cannot rule that the hon. and learned Gentleman's submission
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falls within the provisions of the Standing Order, and therefore I cannot submit his application to the House.

RAILWAYS (INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE)
Mr. Moate: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the national rail strike and the threat of continued disruption of the nation's railway system".
When I made a similar application last Thursday, you, Mr. Speaker, indicated that you would look again at this matter on Monday with a view to the possibility of our having a debate. In the event, a general debate was held on the industrial situation. It is a measure of the depth of chaos into which this nation has been plunged that a debate of that kind took place with only a passing reference to the critical situation on the railways, but the fact remains that the debate did take place with hardly any reference to the problems on the railways. I submit that it is important and urgent that the House should now discuss this vital topic.
In support of the urgency of the case, I pray in aid the fact that the nation today is facing the third daily stoppage of the whole railway network, causing massive inconvenience and hardship to hundreds of thousands of people as well as great financial loss to the nation and to British Rail. We are told that the loss is about £5 million a day rather than the £2 million which was widely quoted last week.
We face the prospect of further daily stoppages and other industrial action and the possibility of escalation of the dispute if British Rail takes action to minimise loses by suspending the guaranteed week.
All the reports about efforts to resolve this complex dispute are gloomy in the extreme. In addition, there is the threat that ASLEF drivers on the London Underground could add to the chaos and disruption by joining the daily stoppages.
Finally, I emphasise that the already hard-hit commuter is now told that one

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consequence of the dispute could be yet further rail fare increases in the coming year. I submit that this matter should receive the urgent attention of the House.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) gave me notice before 12 o'clock that he would ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the national rail strike and the threat of continued disruption of the nation's railway system".
The hon. Gentleman has raised a very important matter, and I listened very carefully to his application. As the House knows, it has instructed me to take account of all the factors set out in the Order, but it has also instructed me to give no reasons for my decision.
I have given careful consideration to the representations made by the hon. Gentleman, but I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

LEAD IN PETROL
4.25 p.m.
Mr. Archie Hamilton: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to reduce the permitted lead content of petrol; and for connected purposes.
Every day in our cities and on our roads, every hour of every day, uncounted thousands of our children, with every breath they take, are being silently and furtively poisoned by minute particles of lead. These particles are tasteless, odourless and invisible. This atmospheric lead comes almost entirely as to 90 per cent. from exhaust gases of petrol engines in motor cars and other vehicles.
I am satisfied, and I hope to satisfy the House today, that there is now overwhelming evidence that the amount of lead ingested by certain of our children can cause subtle and permanent damage to their brains. There is also some evidence that at slightly higher levels it can cause damage to the health of adults.
The Government have it in their power drastically to reduce the lead content of the atmosphere in Britain at one stroke by about 60 per cent., but, astonishingly, they refuse to do so, despite repeated urgings from distinguished hon. Members.
No doubt the Government will say that they are doing a great deal and that they are conducting consultations, and setting up committees. In other words, they will give us all the usual complacent nonsense. However, nothing effective is being done.
Other countries have already legislated. In 1976 the West Germans reduced the level of their lead additives in petrol to 0·15 grammes per litre; the Swedes plan to do so by 1980. The Japanese have had a maximum level of 0·06 grammes since 1975 and the Americans are removing lead from petrol altogether. All we in Britain have managed to do is to order a reduction from 0·45g per litre to 0·40g per litre by 1981. We have taken that action only because we have been directed to do so by the EEC.
The House debated this subject on 12 December last. I pay tribute to the admirable work carried out by the hon. Members for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) and Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) and

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by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, South (Dr. Vaughan), who have all concerned themselves with this problem for many years.
Before I deal with the arguments, I propose that we should ask ourselves a question. Do the levels of lead particles in our atmosphere give rise to reasonable doubt for the safety of the health of children in this country, particularly those who live in inner cities or close to motorway junctions? We must ask ourselves that question because, if there is a reasonable doubt, I am clear that it is the duty of the House to act immediately.
There is now a growing body of evidence showing a direct relationship between lead intake and brain and other neurological damage to children. The latest research of which I am aware, conducted by the University of Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, and recently published, concluded that low levels of exposure to lead, although not causing any apparent and obvious damage to the health of infants, interfere with a child's ability to learn complex tasks. Equally disturbing, it appears that if a mother is exposed to lead during pregnancy the child is born with similar levels of lead in its blood. This takes a very long time to disappear, even in a lead-free environment.
The evidence also shows that impairment of complex learning abilities can lead to abnormal social behaviour. Thus, not only do individuals suffer but the community suffers.
Other work has been done in various countries and it has been brought to the attention of the House. The message is clear. All the research leads us to the conclusion that we have reasonable grounds to fear for the safety of children who are exposed to the levels of lead in the atmosphere in the cities and on the roads of Britain.
Indeed, in Small Heath, Birmingham, the constituency of the Minister responsible for these matters, the level of lead in window dirt, when analysed by Birmingham university chemists, was found to be about 20 times higher than recommended levels of lead in dust. That information emerged from an excellent television programme transmitted on 29 June by Thames Television. The Minister refused to answer any questions submitted to him in writing by the producer. He
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refused to appear or to contribute in any way. I find that disturbing.
I turn to the position of the motor manufacturers. In the past few years we have heard much about the fears for engine life if lead additives are reduced. I have made inquiries of the two largest car producers in the country. Both confirm that for them the proposed reduction would present no problems. Indeed, all Ford cars manufactured in England can run on petrol which complies with the West German lead additives limit—the limit which I advocate in the Bill.
Ford further informs me that the threshold lowest limit of lead content at which wear is likely to increase is 0·05g per litre—two-thirds less than the level that I wish to see in the United Kingdom.
What of the oil companies? I believe that Government interference should be kept to a minimum and that society is best served by free enterprise. However, a free society must also accept its responsibilities. I should be only too happy if the oil companies had voluntarily reduced the level of lead additives already. But they have not. It is now necessary for Parliament to act.
Each oil company that I have contacted has said that it will conform to whatever standards the Government set, but I received the overwhelming impression that not only do they not want a reduction in the levels of lead additives in petrol but that they are putting pressure on the Government to persuade them to do nothing. Alas, that is a pressure to which this Government seem willing to succumb.
The only manufacturer of lead additives in Britain belongs in part to the major oil companies. The oil companies have a vested interest. Their views, therefore, must be examined with care. Of course, the oil companies have problems. They might have to invest in new refinery equipment. They might require more crude oil to obtain the same amount of high octane petrol. How much is entirely dependent upon the technology of the refinery. I understand that estimates provided by the oil companies to the West German Government were four times higher than the actual cost.
I return with no pleasure to the Government's attitude. They have informed us that the quantity of lead entering the

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atmosphere each year is 10,000 tons and that it has remained at that level since 1971. How can anyone regard that as satisfactory?
As with cigarettes and lung cancer, and like most Governments, this Government are not prepared to do anything until the pressure is overwhelming. Soon it might be too late. The effects of our poisoning our children today might not be seen for many years, until somebody notices that the standards of numeracy and literacy have fallen even further. Perhaps the increase in lead in the atmosphere, occasioned by the enormous increase in the number of motor cars and other vehicles, is partly responsible for the disquieting fall in our national education standards.
It is the duty of the House to protect our children from dangers to their health as soon as there are reasonable grounds for suspecting a substance or substances to be harmful. We have no right to gamble with children's health.
The purpose of the proposed Bill is to reduce lead additives in petrol to 0·15g per litre by 1 January 1982. That will give the oil companies three years, and I have heard that they are prepared to accept that. The Government have the opportunity and means to provide time for this reasonable Bill. I urge the House to give me leave to introduce it without further delay.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Archie Hamilton, Mrs. Joyce Butler, Mr. Tony Durant, Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg, Mr. Robin Hodgson, Mrs. Jill Knight, Mr. Andrew MacKay, Mr. David Penhaligon, Mr. George Robertson and Mr. J. W. Rooker.

LEAD IN PETROL
  LEAD IN PETROL
  Mr. Archie Hamilton accordingly presented a Bill to reduce the permitted lead content of petrol; and for connected purposes. And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday next and to be printed. [Bill 52.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  INDUSTRY BILL
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on amendment to Question [18th January], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Which amendment was, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "this House, while accepting the usefulness of a significant part of the work of the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies, declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which is based on totally inadequate documentary evidence of the performance and prospects of the National Enterprise Board."
  Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
  4.35 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: The five depressing days that have passed since this debate was adjourned have done nothing to make less miserable the unhappy political plight of the National Enterprise Board, which is caught in the fatal zigzag of British politics. Last week we heard the Government's attempts to make the NEB play a grotesque charade, pretending to be the embodiment of the Labour Party's 1974 manifesto. Plainly, part of this transparent ploy is that Socialist zealots for the 1974 manifesto and its original grotesque concept of the NEB will be appeased by Labour Members flourishing this Bill and its provision for £4½ billion.
  That essentially moderate man the Secretary of State for Industry has no time for the original pretentious role of the NEB, but he is resorting to this ploy, much to the disadvantage of the admirably managed NEB. In response to his gross exaggeration, which amounts to a hoax, the official Opposition say that qualified euthanasia should be practised in relation to the Board. They say that it should continue with its rather depressing inherited assignments until they can be cast off. That will be the end of the Board.
  A great disservice is being done to those who are doing admirable work on the Board and who do not have a pretentious attitude towards their activities. They must be embarrassed by the inclusion in the Bill of the horrific figure of £4½ billion.

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  It is well known that the Liberal Party has a considerable regard for the concept of the NEB—but on certain conditions. There must be a reasonable amount of recycling. We feel that the NEB should not be run down but that there should be recycling of money as the Board restores important companies to health and vigour. Unfortunately, there is no sign that any recycling is embodied in the calculations of this Bill. There is not even a token or a gesture of money being obtained by the return of companies to private enterprise after some years in the care of the NEB. That is one of the reasons for the stupendous sums in the Bill.
  The second condition on which we, as democratic parliamentarians, feel bound to insist is that Parliament must find ways, and, in the meantime, must use the ways open to it, to establish direct accountability of the NEB to this House. I am the first to concede that this is a difficult operation in which to achieve anything like perfection. It will take time to adapt the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is wrapped in history, to a new concept like the NEB. We had a welcome announcement from the Secretary of State in the first part of the debate last week on the Comptroller and Auditor General's role, but while that is being worked out the mechanism on which we must insist to keep some kind of parliamentary control is what I would describe as a version of the mechanism of supply.
  For the NEB to be assured of its continuance, the Secretary of State must ask this House at fairly frequent intervals for a further ration of capital. The Board should certainly not be given five, six or seven years' ration all in one go so that, after one fairly major debate, parliamentary control can be abdicated for an appallingly long period, apart from brief late-night debates.
  Mr. Michael Marshall: Does the hon. Gentleman agree, touching on a theme earlier in his speech, that an essential part of the Secretary of State's coming to the House should be to give up-to-date operating accounts overall? We had no overall results from the Secretary of State. I hope that the Minister of State will bring us up to date.
  Mr. Wainwright: I expressed that hope last Thursday in the overture to our debate and I am glad to repeat it now. It would be intolerably wet of this House even to consider passing this Bill without a great deal more up-to-date information both on profit and loss and on balance sheet items of the National Enterprise Board. Unless the Government produce that information tonight, before the matter is put to the vote, they will be open, as I hinted last Thursday, to a charge of sharp practice in bringing this Bill forward when it can only be a matter of weeks before some unaudited figures are freely available from the National Enterprise Board.
  We on this Bench have no desire to starve out the NEB or to deny it and its very important subsidiaries the funds which they need to keep the operations going and to maintain the skill and enterprise that the NEB has gathered around it. If the Government would present the House with a more modest and reasonable Bill, scaling down its requirements in line with the Government White Paper on public expenditure, which gives the show away and indicates exactly what the Government expect the NEB to need over the next few years, we would give that sort of legislation a fair wind and, indeed, our full support. But we are not prepared to abdicate parliamentary control by voting tonight such a vast increase in borrowing powers that there will not be any need or any real chance of major debates on the NEB for a very long time to come.
  I remind the House, although it will already be present in many hon. Members' minds, that since the establishment of the NEB we have had only two major debates on this subject, one in April 1978, when there was an important motion to extend the financial limits on an order, and again in December, when there was a big debate on the Public Accounts Committee requirement. Otherwise there have been two other brief debates initiated by Bank Benchers. That is all.
  In my view and that of my colleagues, that does not amount to adequate parliamentary scrutiny and, if necessary, control of a body with such wide-ranging operations and using so much of public credit and public money. I repeat the

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  offer that if the Government will come forward with realistic legislation embodying sums that bear some relation to what can be required in the next 12 months or so, we shall be willing to support it. But a measure that is grotesquely designed for propaganda purposes and which, if taken seriously, means that the NEB is not to do any serious recycling of its funds but is to grow bigger and bigger, with the abdication of parliamentary control, requires that I shall recommend my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the Opposition amendment.
  4.45 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Hordern: I was glad to hear what the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) said about the Liberal Party's attitude towards this Bill. His speech was a cogent argument against a Second Reading of the Bill being given by the House, for we are asked in the Bill to provide another £3,500 million to the National Enterprise Board on grounds that the Secretary of State himself described last week. He said:
  "The NEB is by any objective assessment one of the great success stories of British industry."
  I think that the objective assessment that he described was founded on the fact that, as he said,
  "It was an essential feature of industrial policies put forward for the Labour Party's manifestos in 1974."—[Official Report, 18th January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2022.]
  Using perhaps rather different assessments from those employed by the Secretary of State, I would only say that so far as the accounts show, and what the taxpayer has had to bear, the National Enterprise Board has a ragbag of investments that have run at a sustained and continuing loss ever since it was founded. I see the Minister of State shaking his head. Clearly, he takes into account the figures produced by National Enterprise Board reports. During my remarks, I shall show why the Minister of State is wrong and why the report and accounts of the National Enterprise Board are grossly misleading.
  I must recognise, of course, that the National Enterprise Board has been bequeathed a number of problems which it did not seek. I refer to British Leyland, Rolls-Royce and Alfred Herbert. These are the giants of the motor industry, the
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  aircraft engine industry and the machine-tool industry. It is a deplorable commentary on the state of industry in our country that those important elements should be in the hands of the National Enterprise Board and causing such grave problems for it.
  We know from the last report of the National Enterprise Board that the problem companies of the NEB, namely British Leyland and Rolls-Royce, are required to obtain a return of 10 per cent. by 1981. If the Government were so confident that this would be done, I do not see why the House is expected to provide so much money as it is. It must follow that if 10 per cent. can be achieved by 1981, the cash flow from these companies will enable these businesses to be run very effectively without too much recourse to these funds.
  There is no attempt whatever to justify this enormous sum of money. When the Secretary of State said that it had very little effect on the level of public expenditure, it is true that there is little relationship between £3,500 million set out in this Bill and the £270 million annually for the next four years in the public expenditure White Paper. What the Secretary of State did not say is that every penny borrowed by the National Enterprise Board is borrowed from the capital market, and that is every penny less available for the productive industry of our country.
  These are enormous sums of money. They are not mere trifles. It is no good saying, as the Government do, that the Bill will have no impact on public expenditure. What about the impact of the debt interest? That would be very considerable. It would be a good idea for the Secretary of State for Industry to get in touch with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to tell him what he is doing and then tell the House what are his proposals for this enormous sum of money.
  The problem stems from the fact that the Government are not clear, even now, about the proper role of the NEB. We have been told that one of its roles is to provide, maintain or safeguard productive employment. It stands to reason that if the Board runs at a loss, it can provide employment only at the expense of productive employment in the private sector.

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  If the Government are serious about controlling the money supply, the money that they borrow must be in competition with private industrial borrowing, and the weight of Government borrowing is so huge that they cannot borrow at an interest rate of less than 14 per cent. Profitable companies in the private sector are deterred from expansion because interest rates are at a level that allows the Government to lend money to the NEB in order to get a pre-interest return of 10 per cent. from British Leyland and Rolls-Royce and of 11 per cent. from its other investments. Even the figure of 11 per cent. falls well short of the Government's cost of borrowing.
  The Minister of State does not agree that the NEB is running at a loss. The objectives of the Board are plainly set out in the report and accounts. They include the achievement of a pre-interest return of 15 per cent. I do not know many companies that are asked to get a pre-interest return. If we take interest charges into account, the profit is reduced by a substantial margin.
  In addition, the public dividend capital on which the NEB largely rests does not entail any interest charges, and it is time that the House realised the taxpayer's true penalties for this system. The same applies to nationalised industries. Neither the NEB nor nationalised industries can have public dividend capital unless that money is borrowed from the taxpayer. What is really important is the cost to the taxpayer. Since he now has to pay 14 per cent. on the sum that the Government borrow, the whole of the public dividend capital should bear a proper interest charge of 14 per cent. The crucial test should be the profit, post-interest, allowing for a proper level of interest to be charged on the public dividend capital.
  These matters have been discussed in the Public Accounts Committee and are on the record. It is unwise for the House to continue to swallow the concept of public dividend capital which increases yearly and shows precious little return for the taxpayer. That is why I reject the view of the Secretary of State and the Minister of State that the NEB runs at a profit. It runs at a significant loss.
  It is beyond argument that employment, health, education and all our social services can be provided only by profitable industry and business. Many people
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  say that they believe in a mixed economy. Sir Leslie Murphy says so in the NEB's latest annual report. We certainly have a mixed economy—a mixture of a profitable private sector, though it is declining in profitability, and a loss-making public sector.
  It is not widely recognised that the national income accounts apparently do not show the full scale of loss-making among the public corporations. Unlike the private sector, the public corporations have no deduction for capital consumption from their trading profits. If that were done, it would be sufficient to remove the entire reported surplus in most of the past 10 years.
  Since the NEB makes a true post-interest loss on its capital, it seems sheer folly to increase the scale of its operations by £3,500 million. That money could be employed and borrowed by profitable private industry. In his last report, Sir Leslie Murphy said:
  "We have evolved a satisfactory method of dealing with the companies in which we invest. We will not involve ourselves in day-to-day management. Our concern is with the quality of the management."
  That is our concern as well. The quality was certainly not very good under Lord Ryder, and although it is too early to pass judgment on the management ability of Sir Leslie, I do not think that he can altogether escape responsibility for some of the real stumers that the NEB has perpetrated. I refer particularly to British Tanners Products, Hivent and Thwaites and Reed as glaring examples. If the new as opposed to the inherited investments are taken into account, the losses greatly exceed the profits on the NEB's investments.
  In an important passage in his speech last week, the Secretary of State discussed the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is another matter that the Public Accounts Committee has examined at length, and that all-party Committee has made clear its view that the Comptroller and Auditor General should be allowed access to the books of the NEB.
  I am sure that there is no question of the Comptroller and Auditor General interfering with the commercial freedom of the Board. It is important that he should be able to make the House, through the PAC, aware of anything that seems, on the face of it, to be going

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  wrong, so that an early inquiry may be carried out. If that had been done, some of the stumers to which I referred may have been avoided.
  It is not satisfactory that the Government should carry out an inquiry into the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Exchequer and Audit Department. It is rather like a judge acting also as a jury. I hope that the inquiry will be sufficiently wide-ranging and that the committee will be composed of people other than those in the public service so that it can make an up-to-date survey of what the Exchequer and Audit Department is doing, and what it ought to do.
  There is no case for the extra funds provided for in the Bill and the Secretary of State has not attempted to make out a case for them. He is interested in extending his empire, and that ought not to be the interest of the House. While that attitude and this Government remain, we are, it seems, condemned to high interest rates and high personal taxation. It is a fitting tribute to the work of the NEB and the state of our industry under a Labour Government that their cheap troubleshooter, Sir Michael Edwardes, should have said in his latest reported statement that if the level of taxation is not substantially reduced in three years' time, he will leave his country.
  4.58 p.m.
  Mr. Ted Leadbitter: There was a notable contrast between what the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) said and the pronouncements of the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) and it concerned the question of support, or lack of support, for the National Enterprise Board. It is well known that the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley is opposed to the NEB, and he is therefore inclined to produce arguments against it anyway. That is why he was not constructive and why he spoke without evidence. There was a contradiction in his complaining that he did not have sufficient information yet claiming to have an abundance of evidence for condemning the NEB.
  I am sure that the Government will accept that when the House is asked to agree a substantial increase of moneys for
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  the development agencies and the NEB, we should have a great deal of information available to us. In addition, there is a contradiction in treatment if the development agencies are subject to the scrutiny of the Public Accounts Committee and the NEB is not.
  It may well be that the Government approach on this matter is correct, but I hope it will be agreeable, in view of the comments made by the Public Accounts Committee, the Expenditure Committee and the Procedure Committee, that the argument may continue in the House in order that we can see for ourselves where the strength of argument lies concerning the future treatment of the NEB.
  It is quite clear to me that the Secretary of State for Industry rightly claimed, on 18 January, at the beginning of the debate, that the SDA, the WDA and the NEB have been success stories in industry. In order that I may not excite the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley too much, I place emphasis on the word "success". I do not want to get into an argument about profitability. We are dealing, in historical terms, with a very new venture, and it would be wrong to presume too much, or to expect a great deal of profitability at this stage. There have been several teething troubles which I am sure have been overcome, and we should not condemn it on the rather questionable arguments put forward by the hon. Gentleman.
  The House is aware that the Conservative Party voted against the establishment of the development agencies, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) confirmed last week, following an intervention from me. He said:
  "I have nothing new to say about our intentions in relation to the NEB. We have explained them a number of times. We shall keep the Board"—
  that is, the NEB—
  "to run its existing portfolio, with the instruction that it should, with due care for the public interst, sell its assets when it can, which will, no doubt, mean that it will retain British Leyland and, perhaps, Rolls-Royce for a little longer than it will retain a number of the other assets."—[Official Report, 18 January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2046.]
  That really means the strangulation of the enterprise upon which many thousands of jobs and valuable industries have depended.

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  It is not without significance that the right hon. Gentleman, in addition, began his speech last week by stating that his Conservative colleagues the hon. Members for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) and for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) and others of his hon. Friends had told him that the work of the Scottish Development Agency and the Welsh Development Agency was very much appreciated in those parts of the United Kingdom. As that came from members of a party which was opposed initially to these agencies, one can only presume that its conversion has taken the form of a convulsion brought about by an unwillingness to learn and a readiness to avoid the embarrassment of denying the success of these agencies. The right hon. Gentleman reserves his condemnation, therefore, to the NEB. He was rather mealy-mouthed about the agencies, but at the behest of his hon. Friends he gave them some qualified support.
  Having regard to the right hon. Gentleman's opposition to the NEB, I wonder whether he will take note that the 1977 annual report on the company shareholdings, involving 12 subsidiaries and 16 associated companies, with 287,292 jobs—and by December 1978 more than 40 companies and an estimate of well over 300,000 jobs—is of significant importance to this House and to the country.
  Can anyone deny that, between 1977 and December 1978, the support for Rolls-Royce, British Leyland, Ferranti and ICL, to mention only a few companies, provided for them a long-awaited turning point and, indeed, considerable success? These are companies which are of signal importance to the United Kingdom economy, and no responsible Member of the House of Commons can deny that. The House of Commons could not, in any case, having regard to the recent history of those companies, stand aside and let them fall. Whether the Conservative Party likes it or not, these companies know the wisdom of the NEB being established in this country by my party.
  Looking at the 300,000-plus jobs over the total range of the NEB holdings, and considering the dependence of other occupations—this is another important factor—as a result of which many hundreds of thousands of jobs have been protected by NEB activity, it is clear
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  that we have already a considerable work force protection which has come from the work of the Board. Where we have companies such as Rolls-Royce and the need to maintain a very substantial car manufacture in this country—and also ICL and Ferranti in computers and engineering—it is important to understand that, if these areas of the economy were not protected, hundreds of thousands more jobs would be placed in jeopardy.
  We can reasonably conclude that the Scottish Development Agency and the Welsh Development Agency, and the record of the NEB, have been justifiably praised by the Secretary of State. But the Bill seeks to raise the limits substantially—the SDA to a maximum of £800 million, the WDA to a maximum of £400 million, and the NEB to £4,500 million. These figures may well be justified, but here I come nearer to the position of the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley. At this stage, bearing in mind that we shall be dealing with some of these matters in Committee, it is not for me to question the word of my right hon. Friend. I take it for granted that he has discussed with the NEB the full financial limit implications of the proposals.
  To that extent, I accept that this illustrates the need, at this stage anyway, to support the Bill in the vote to be taken later today, but it also illustrates another matter. There is, in my view, an imbalance of treatment which can be seen, in relation to the Northern region in particular, if the present trend of the NEB investment continues. Here we have an indication that the Northern region has suffered a lack of investment support. For instance, by April of last year, only five Northern companies and three subsidiaries attracted NEB investment, involving 1,679 jobs. In the North-West region, as the Secretary of State mentioned last week, there were 35,000 jobs involved. But, with NEB investment at the level of which we are now aware, there was a total job involvement of 287,292 jobs at the relevant date. Quite clearly, in the North-West region and the Northern region, as compared with Scotland and Wales, we are certainly in the less favoured position. If I may say so, the Northern region is at the bottom of this league.
  If the NEB strategy in the regions is to help medium sized and smaller firms, as

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  was claimed in the annual report of 1977, why is there this disappointing level of investment in the Northern region? As I understand it, the purpose of the Board is to promote industrial efficiency and market competitiveness and provide, maintain, and safeguard productive employment. Why is there such little impact in the Northern region where for decades there have been intolerable levels of unemployment and an outstanding potential for development of new skills? There is also a high level of regional activity to attract new industries and the advantages of improving communications and port facilities which are ideal for home and international trading.
  Assistance to the Northern region up to the third quarter of last year by regional development grants and payments under sections 7 and 8 of the Industry Act 1972 amounted to £143 million. For the financial year 1977–78 Northern region it was £145 million. The NEB is not matching by any investment activity the level of aid to the region. It is suggested that the NEB has taken the view—and I hope that it is wrong—that the North is largely made up of what are described as slave companies, which have their parent companies outside the region. Consequently, when the economic winds blow cold the first action of the people at head offices is to cut their losses and run. In Hartlepool we have a great experience of that. Such a move was announced just a few days ago. There may be an element of truth in the suggestion.
  Is it not time that large inputs of finance to induce companies to settle in this region had a more active response from the NEB to provide the confidence which the parent companies apparently lack? Especially with this new input of financial limits, the NEB now has an opportunity to correct this regional imbalance of investment.
  I understand that the location of INMOS, the micro-electronics company associated with what is popularly known as the silicone chip production proposals, backed by the National Enterprise Board, has not yet been decided. I am informed that the Government have granted an industrial development certificate to INMOS for its United Kingdom technology centre at Bristol. This move is to accommodate some 50 design and development personnel, but a report in the press suggests
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  that the force will be built up by the early 1980s to between 400 and 500.
  On 13 December my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Dormand) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, Central (Mr. Cowans), on behalf of the Northern group of Labour MPs who have been diligently working on this matter and preparing as usual a constructive and formidable case for the Secretary of State to consider, made representations to him. They learned that no decision had been taken on the matters referred to in press reports. They were also informed that a certain advertisement was unauthorised. I make no further comment because, as I appreciate the position, the chairman of the NEB has courteously taken the initiative to put that matter right.
  There has clearly been a decision regarding the technology centre. There was a later press report on 5 January of this year following a meeting of my hon. Friends. It adds that the Government have also granted—I hope the Under-Secretary of State will listen carefully to what I say—an industrial development certificate in Bristol for 100,000 sq. ft. for a manufacturing centre. Will the Secretary of State clarify the position? He stated last week in the House:
  "About 90 per cent. of the expenditure and 90 per cent. of the jobs"
  in the manufacturing side—and I believe he may well have included the head-quarters—
  "will be in the assisted areas."—[Official Report, 18 January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2035.]
  I am aware that the consultant managers who are engaged on this matter are studying sites. Indeed, on 13 December 1978 the Secretary of State informed the Northern group of MPs' officials that 90 per cent. of the jobs and 90 per cent. of the capital investment would be in the assisted areas. His statement last week confirmed that. Clarification is needed in the light of the Bristol IDC press report of 5 January.
  The Secretary of State will understand that on a number of other industrial development matters in the past Governments have expressed confidence that the claims of the Northern region would be carefuly considered. I am sure that he has expressed a similar view. But since we are dealing with the proposals for

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  four manufacturing units involved in the INMOS plan, employing 1,000 people in each unit, and a substantial administrative centre in a new headquarters, the North regional claim requires a confirmation that INMOS will be establishing the manufacturing units and the headquarters in assisted areas. There should be a rebuttal of any press statements suggesting otherwise.
  The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Gerald Kaufman): I wish to make this matter absolutely clear. It is true that the INMOS technology centre will be located in Bristol. Nobody in this House regrets that more than I do. I had hoped that it would be located somewhere nearer my constituency. But I wish to make it perfectly clear that the NEB have announced that INMOS has engaged a firm of management consultants to conduct a detailed study with the intention of locating the INMOS factories in assisted areas. It is expected that the headquarters will be alongside one of these factories in an assisted area.
  Mr. Leadbitter: On this reasonably satisfying note, I draw to a conclusion merely by giving a warning and at the same time expressing my thanks for my right hon. Friend's remarks. The North-West region, the Northern region and, indeed, England, are not making a plea that we are envious of the impact of the development agencies in Wales and Scotland. Quite the contrary; we understand their problems. But there does not appear to be the same impact in areas inside England, such as my region, which has many decades of experience of high levels of unemployment. On many occasions we have made representations to Ministers where the industrial power structure has been such that in the end they have had their own way. It is no consolidation to have had the encouragement of the backing of a Government Department—in this case the Department of Industry—yet subsequently to find that the preconceived notions of those in industry influence them to go elsewhere.
  Tonight the House of Commons is passing a Bill involving substantial additions to the financial limits of the National Enterprise Board. I am conscious of the fact that the chairman of that Board is jealously guarding his entrepreneurial rights, and I have the right to say to him
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  that he must bear in mind that the NEB also carries a responsibility to this House which gave him the organisation that he now heads. He must be answerable to Parliament—to all Members of this House who have a stake in this undertaking, whether they oppose the NEB or not.
  It is imperative in the functioning of our economy that the chairman must understand that the good will of the House and the support of its Members depend on his recognition that his entrepreneurial instincts must carry a responsibility to carry out the statutory powers that have been vested in the NEB. He must see that the regions get a fair crack of the whip in terms of investment and that the NEB will match the substantial amounts of money that the Government give under sections 7 and 8 of the Industry Act 1972.
  There is no point in attracting industry to the regions if a powerful body like the NEB will not confirm the foundations of investment there. The absence of NEB activity in the regions indicates to parent companies outside those regions that the NEB has no confidence in them. If that is the case, why should the parent companies have confidence in the regions? I hope that this debate will convey our attitude to the chairman and that he will realise that our support for him depends on the fact that there are social, economic and regional judgments which he in turn must support and on which he must soon make some pronouncements.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander Fletcher: I was interested to hear from the remarks of the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) that he was not at all jealous of the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies, even though he represents a constituency in the North-East. That is a measure of his sound judgment. However, I did think earlier that he had swallowed the Government's propaganda about those agencies rather too literally. Also, in the earlier part of his speech he made some play about the Conservative Party's attitude to the agencies. I hope that he will realise that there is a reason for the distinction that we draw between the SDA and the WDA on the one hand and the NEB on the other.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) was

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  absolutely right to say that the Secretary of State was talking rubbish when he suggested that the Bill was vital to the SDA and WDA. The fact is that the existing financial limits for these agencies have not been stretched. For example, in the case of the SDA, which has spent or committed £170 million, the Bill provides a new financial limit of £800 million. This can only be described as a piece of political gimmickry and a commitment that could be put into effect only by a new Government and a new Parliament in the future.
  In fact, the Bill is very much in line with the exaggerated claims that Ministers make in relation to the NEB and the two agencies. Of course Ministers have to find something to boast about in these rather gloomy days, but the suggestion that this Bill will provide a massive transfer of funds to development areas is totally illusory, and the Secretary of State must know that.
  The amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend helps to put the SDA into perspective by distinguishing between its inherited functions and its new functions. There is no substantial disagreement across the Floor of the House about the importance of the inherited functions of the SDA. These include industrial estates management, advance factories, environmental improvement, the attraction of industry, and help for small businesses—in fact 90 per cent. of the agency's functions.
  The management of industrial estates and the attraction of industry were previously carried out by the Scottish Industrial Estates Corporation and the Scottish Council (Development and Industry). Tribute is due to both these organisations for the tremendous contribution that they have made over the years to the Scottish economy on a very modest budget.
  The difference today is not simply that these functions have been transferred to the SDA; it is that the agency is presented to the public as some kind of miracle machine—a new miracle cure for all of Scotland's economic problems. Ministers stoke up great expectations for the NEB and for the agencies just as, over the years, they have stoked up great expectations about the benefits of nationalisation, only to find that the extension of public ownership and Government intervention
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  has stifled economic growth and left Britain lagging behind nearly all her international competitors.
  In his opening speech the Secretary of State said:
  "The Scottish Development Agency has firmly established itself in the industrial scene and has gained widespread and genuine acceptance and support from the Scottish banks and industry and commerce generally."—[Official Report, 18th January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2040.]
  But, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East indicated in his contribution, industry's attitude is ambivalent, particularly in the present state of the British economy. Industry welcomes another source of funds which may be obtained below the going rate—it would be foolish not to do so—but few business men can be sure that tomorrow they will not be competing against the NEB or one of the agencies. Of course, industry very much resents the tendency of the NEB and the development agencies to invest in one particular company in a declining market.
  Mr. George Robertson: Can the hon. Member give chapter and verse either of the institutions in Scotland or the industrial organisations in that country which have been specifically critical about the role of the SDA? Will he bear in mind the fact that in their evidence to the Wilson committee on the financial institutions, the Scottish clearing banks indicated that the SDA filled a noticeable gap in the equity market for small and medium-size companies?
  Mr. Fletcher: I have already referred to that point. I said that business takes an ambivalent attitude to the SDA—and why should it not do so? I am sure that if the hon. Member were a banker he would understand that if he could reduce his own risk with a company and get a Government agency to put in some extra money he would do so. As long as the agency exists it will be a temptation for bankers and business men of all kinds to take advantage of it.
  Of course, the agencies are under great pressure to spend money, and that is not a good discipline for any kind of Government body. There is pressure from Ministers and from trade unions every time a business runs into any kind of difficulty. Economic forces which should be disciplining a market economy are

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  plagued by the belief that the Government or their agencies can always be relied upon to save the day whatever the problem and whatever the cost.
  This pressure for Government intervention becomes more and more persistent with every extra £1 million that is made available to the NEB and its agencies.
  The SDA denies that it is a rescue operation for sick companies. In its 1978 report it says that it aims
  "to support companies showing long-term prospects of viability and profitability."
  It all depends on what is meant by "long-term."
  In view of the amount of funds already available from other sources for profitable investment in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, it is not surprising that the SDA investments are more related to high-risk rescue operations than to viable and profitable concerns. That is a fact of life when considering the investments of the SDA to date. This is why Ministers, the NEB and the agencies need to be reminded of the excellent advice given to them by the Financial Times—a newspaper that knows something about these matters—on 25 April 1978. The leading article of that day said:
  "The Government agencies ought to be guarding against two dangers—being used as a 'soft touch' by companies which are perfectly capable of raising money from market sources, and being used as a lender of last resort by companies whose future is so uncertain that no private sector institution will help them. If they turn away both these sorts of business, there will be very little for them to do and that will be all to the good."
  What worries me is that this good advice is wasted as long as Ministers revel in using the NEB and the agencies as political tools with which to distort the market economy—a situation that must make life impossible for the executives and staff of the agencies as they try to follow the guidelines laid down by the Government.
  That is why, therefore, in the case of the SDA in particular, a Conservative Government would introduce new guidelines. We want to ensure that economic realism and financial discipline are linked to the incentive to work, so that economic growth may be achieved and sustained. It is badly needed, for it is the only cure for our economic ills. That is why we must end the pretence that the NEB and
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  the SDA can produce an economic miracle and work wonders for the Scottish economy.
  Labour Members, in this House and in Scotland, are continually raising great expectations, the kind of miracle cures that the SDA will be able to achieve. That is completely false. What must be learned is that economic success cannot be based on more and more public expenditure. That has been tried time and time again and has failed miserably, and it accounts, to a very large extent, for the economic problems that face us today.
  Mr. Douglas Henderson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his reference to my party. I think that he might have read the remarks that I made when this debate began, when I said:
  "The Government will have much more credit and respect if they make clear that the Agency can, at best, make only a marginal contribution to the Scottish economy."—[Official Report, 18 January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2079.]
  Mr. Fletcher: I am glad to notice from what the hon. Member said that he had read Professor Donald Mackay's report, which underlined that point very strongly—a report, indeed, which he quoted. Of course, the SNP cannot get enough agencies of this kind, and its manifesto is filled with agencies, Government funds, investment funds and everything else, which all support the kind of ideas which the Labour Party puts forward.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to Professor Donald Mackay, of Heriot Watt university when he spoke last Thursday. It is quite true that the £24 million per year which the SDA is spending on industrial projects has been more than offset by a substantial fall in Government expenditure on industrial regional aid in Scotland. Therefore, again we can see that the Bill, to a very great extent, is a sham.
  We should also reconsider the wisdom of combining financial aid to small businesses—which is essentially the investment function of the SDA—and the industrial and environmental functions into one single agency. It would certainly be worth while considering the effect of operating this investment function separately, as was the case for small businesses before the SDA was formed.

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  I think that we should re-examine the SDA's environmental functions with a view to introducing more privately funded investment, particularly for housing. It can be no coincidence that Scotland, with more council housing than any other country in Western Europe, still has some of the worst housing in Western Europe.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Gregor MacKenzie): I was less than clear how the hon. Gentleman envisaged the SDA's role vis-à-vis the smaller companies. The SDA currently makes loans to a substantial number of companies. In the Lothian region, in which the hon. Gentleman is interested, about 25 companies have benefited to the extent of rather more than £250,000. I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman is proposing should now happen to assist these small companies either in the way of finance or of guidance and advice, such as the small firms sector of the SDA does at present.
  Mr. Fletcher: What I am suggesting, and what I shall repeat, is that it might be worth reconsidering whether the investment function, the small business function, should remain with everything else that the SDA does. It might be worth while putting the investment and small business function into some other kind of Government-sponsored agency. The Minister will remember that the Small Business Council did this work before the SDA was dreamed of, and did it rather well. It may be that we could go back to that kind of arrangement.
  Before the Minister intervened, I was referring to the question of housing and the environmental functions of the SDA. The fact that Scotland has some of the worst housing in Western Europe suggests that the remedy must be to increase the number of owner-occupiers. It may be that the SDA could help in this respect. That is the way in which I believe we should look at the SDA and its functions generally. I believe that we should do this with realism and common sense, to make sure that the Scottish people get value for money. This Bill is clearly an attempt to prolong the myth that Government spending and Government intervention can create prosperity when in fact the opposite is the case. That is why I shall vote against the Bill this evening.
  5.37 p.m.
  Mr. T. W. Urwin: My contribution will be relatively brief, if only because I am aware that several of my colleagues wish to participate before the Minister of State winds up this debate.
  I listened with great interest on Thursday to the opening speeches of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), leading for the Opposition. My comments about those speeches are as follows. I thought that my right hon. Friend was unnecessarily muted and by no means willing—apparently unwilling—to take advantage of the opportunity of describing what to me amounts to a remarkable success story of the activities of the National Enterprise Board since its inception. I think that my right hon. Friend could have said a great deal more about the achievements to date of the NEB.
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East, in his own inimical style, with sheer political dogma, poured scorn on the whole idea of State intervention in industry. His attitude was somewhat reminiscent of the attitude of Selsdon man in 1970 towards the IRC, which was dismantled by the right hon. Gentleman's Government but which was already proving that it was having an impact on industrial development in this country.
  The indecision for several months after the election in June 1970 of the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friends led to a crisis of confidence in industry in relation to investment grants. I trust—indeed, it is my fervent hope—that when the electorate of this country record their vote at the polls in a few months' time they will remember the outrageously inefficient policies of the previous Conservative Government in relation to industrial development.
  There are fundamental factors in the development areas in relation to unemployment and the allied subject of industrial development which demand that there should be a continuation of an agency such as the National Enterprise Board. Together with masses of my constituents and friends and colleagues in the Northern region, I deplore the right hon. Gentleman's attitude when he says, in deprecatory terms, as he did last Thursday, that the NEB will be allowed to continue with

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  British Leyland and, perhaps, with Rolls-Royce. The right hon. Gentleman has not yet learned the lesson which I and my hon. Friends have been learning for years and years while representing the people who have elected us to the House of Commons. I am referring to the measures which are necessary to create new employment to provide job opportunities for countless thousands of people who are denied the right and privilege of working and earning a living.
  Mr. Leadbitter: My right hon. Friend has not gone quite as far as he ought to have done. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) said that instructions would be given to sell the assets and that perhaps Rolls-Royce and British Leyland would last a little longer. What confidence can that give to those two large companies?
  Mr. Urwin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding me about that. I did not wish to be too devastating in my comments. I am sure that my hon. Friends have a full understanding of the points that I have already made.
  It is in this context that I suggest to the right hon. Member and to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher), with as much emphasis as I can, that when reference is made to the existing limits of the development agencies not being stretched, the unemployment situation in the development areas demands the allocation of financial resources that are as great as can be made available by the Government. I am sure that my Government are fully seized of their responsibilities in that regard.
  It was a little unfortunate that in our debate on Thursday—apart from the presentation by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. Watkins) — insufficient emphasis was placed on the regional dimension of the NEB. In the short time available to me I want to place even more emphasis on the regional aspects of the situation than my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) placed upon them.
  I must point out to the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East that the northern group of Labour Members loses no opportunity to meet organisations in the Northern region and to have discus-
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  sions with their representatives. We do this almost every weekend when away from the House, when we discuss the very difficult and almost intractable problems of unemployment which affect the Northern region. On Saturday morning last, in a very prolonged discussion with representatives of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions, we had a remarkably lucid exposition, from the essentially moderate trade union leaders present, of the real problems affecting the Northern region which can be influenced by the NEB, especially since the inception of its regional arms in the North and North-West.
  My trade union colleagues in the Northern region quite properly claim that private industry is failing the region—as it is, indeed, failing other parts of the country. It is a national as well as a regional disease, but it is one which bears more heavily on the development areas. I cannot refute their arguments when they tell me, for example, that the Northern region is rapidly losing its place in the manufacturing section of heavy engineering. Only a few days ago Vickers announced the closure of its works in the Tyneside area, demonstrating, I am told, a nineteenth century attitude owards the problems of its particular section of industry and, more especially, in regard to its failure to inform the unions and employees of the closure plans.
  I am told—again I have no reason to refute the arguments; indeed, I accept them in their entirety—that the machine tool industry has always been inadequately represented in the Northern region, be it on the Tyne, the Wear or the Tees. The British machine tool industry cannot meet the demands which are placed upon it.
  There is a role here for the NEB. I want the NEB to seek, at least, to adopt—this is not permissible under the present rules, as I understand it—an innovatory role, instead of going to the rescue of companies that might be on the verge of failure. Private investment in the Northern region has completely failed us. We are almost entirely dependent upon the activities of the Government, the investment prescribed by the Government through investment grants and the other methods that are available through legislation, especially that of the present Government.

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  I repeatedly remind myself of the brave words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) a few years ago when he talked about the white heat of the technological revolution and said that where private industry was seen to be failing the Government would intervene and set up new industries. We are still awaiting the redemption of that promise and the assurance that at some time or another the Government will grasp this nettle and say "Fair enough. We have the NEB and we shall seek to ensure that it does its best, at least, to contribute towards resolving these particular problems."
  On Thursday my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State referred to micro-chips, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool today. Already there is a Government investment of £100 million in this exciting new development. Even though I accept in its entirety the assurance given a few minutes ago by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State regarding the manufacturing arms of this organisation, one cannot emphasise too heavily the vital importance of these manufacturing arms coming into the development areas.
  I conclude with a brief comment on the development agencies as compared with the NEB. So deeply concerned are we in the Northern region about the continuing high and totally unacceptable levels of unemployment that we are driven, almost in desperation, to find new solutions, to find anything that will help to resolve the desperately difficult situation.
  For some time now, we in the Northern region have been saying that we are afraid of the repercussive effects of devolution to Scotland and Wales. In our view, there is nothing conciliatory about events as they have developed over the last year or so. Our fears, and the fears of many people in places of responsibility in the region, are sharpened because of the establishment of the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies.
  It should be borne in mind that the NEB is a far-flung empire which is not restricted to the development areas of England alone but operates equally in Scotland and Wales. However, while I am convinced that the Government will
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  do, and are doing, everything in their power to ensure that there is equality of treatment and equal allocation of resources, none the less the suspicion remains in the minds of many people in the development areas—especially in the the Northern region—that we are disadvantaged because there are development agencies in Scotland and Wales and not in the Northern region.
  I sincerely trust that at some time in the future the Northern region will be placed at least on an equal footing with the other underdeveloped areas, such as Scotland and Wales. I hope that we shall be able to say to our friends and colleagues in the Northern region "Well, there we are, we now have everything that they have." We ought to be able to say in the future that everything else is equal.
  With those remarks I firmly and warmly support the content of the Bill, which seeks to extend the amount of money available to the NEB, in the firm belief that the Northern region will benefit substantially from the advantages which that money should bestow on the development areas.
  5.51 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Grylls: I believe that the right hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) has unfairly and inaccurately reflected the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) on the question of British Leyland and Rolls-Royce. Conservative Members have repeatedly made it clear that we back Mr. Edwardes in the decisions that he has taken in British Leyland. We shall go on backing him. We support the activities of Sir Kenneth Keith in Rolls-Royce and are delighted that that company is doing better. It does not help if the right hon. Gentleman takes that sort of attitude. It may be useful and effective in electoral terms, but it does not assist the debate.
  When the Secretary of State for Industry opened the debate last week, some of us who admired his sincerity as a man realised that we did not know him as a humorist. However, when I heard his speech I thought that he had commissioned a speech-writer from Private Eye, because when he described the NEB as "one of the great success stories of British industry" he was at least modestly over-egging the pudding.

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  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that it is impossible to imagine the British industrial scene without the NEB. I am not sure whether most of British industry today, as it is struggling to keep its head above water with the strike and lack of supplies, in addition to declining profitability and high taxation, would agree with the right hon. Gentleman's view. Of course, that was absurd hyperbole, and he cannot have meant it seriously.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) dealt effectively with the classic question of the profitability of the NEB. I say no more about that. I thought that he dealt effectively with the public dividend capital of £439 million, on which no return has been made. I hope that the Minister will tell us when it is expected the NEB will be making a return on this money, because that is important.
  When the Bill first appeared and saw the light of day, it must have been a shock to the NEB itself, and to almost everybody in the House, to see this gargantuan sum of £4,500 million. This seems to me to support what my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) said on Second Reading, that the first £1,000 million would not be the end of the story, that that would go, and that another £1,000 million would follow. My hon. Friend was guilty of an underestimate. It is not £3,000 million, but £4,500 million, but how right he was in the general direction of what was likely to happen. He merely underestimated the NEB's appetite for money.
  When one casts one's mind back to that Second Reading debate and the sort of comment being thrown around at that time, one recalls an amusing article in The Observer, which stated:
  "Now the mountain of British industry is to be forced to walk hand-in-hand with Mahomet, in what Mr. Benn describes, without a trace of self-consciousness, as a 'genuine tripartite exercise of power-sharing—the biggest innovation in industrial policy since the Second World War'."
  That was perhaps the hope of certain Labour Members at the time when the NEB came into existence.
  What was the NEB supposed to do? It was said that it would reverse the long decline in British manufacturing industry. I wonder how many people think that it
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  has achieved that. Indeed, was it fair to expect the NEB to achieve that? Of course not. It is absurd. Its other objectives were to inject the national and regional interest, to take working people into strategic decisions made by important firms and to extend industrial democracy.
  We should be pleased that very few of those objectives have been achieved. Looking back on them now, they seem almost like chapter headings in a Fabian leaflet rather than reality. None has been achieved. In many ways, perhaps this is to the credit of the NEB. Some of them have not even been attempted, and we should be grateful for that.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley rightly said, the truth is that in those cases where the NEB made its own decision—I do not mean the inherited companies; I am thinking of, for example, British Tanneries which was set up to support all the ailing tanneries that Barrow Hepburn was praying to get rid of—it took over concerns which gave rise to trouble. Thwaites and Reed, that tiny minnow on the South Coast, which had never been successful, and never could be successful, had to be disposed of.
  Cambridge Instruments is almost a classic case of interventionism. That case goes back 11 years, to 1968, when it cost the IRC about £2 million and was disposed of to the NEB for £1·25 million. Altogether £10 million has been put into this company, and still it is a disaster story. It has had 11 years of support from taxpayers' money, yet it is still doing badly.
  I hope that INMOS will succeed. We all hope that, because taxpayers' money is involved. I do not have enough time to quote the comments of those in the industry who know a lot about micro-processing. All I say is that I am doubful about its future. If I am proved wrong, I shall be the first to admit it.
  Are all these companies, the ones that we know have already gone wrong and the ones that look very unhopeful for the future, really the "commanding heights" which the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) described as
  "the biggest innovation in industrial policy since the Second World War"?

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  When Ministers talk about the NEB, they talk about ICL and Ferranti. If they were really honest and accurate, they would say that ICL's entry into the public sector was nothing to do with the NEB. They would say that Ferranti was nothing to do with the NEB. The fact that at least half of the shares in Ferranti have been returned to the market again is no thanks to the NEB but thanks to the agreement that Ferranti entered into with the Government, with the blessing of Lord Goodman. I believe that the NEB would wish to be judged on those decisions that it has taken on its own initiative. Those decisions do not look very hopeful.
  But what happens now? The 1976 Labour Party manifesto promised not only more money for the NEB but more NEBs. The Labour Party is not satisfied with only one but is proposing that there should be more NEBs. All I would say is "Heaven help the poor taxpayer".
  The question of accountability was mentioned by the Secretary of State in his opening speech. It is common knowledge on both sides of the House that the lack of accountability of the NEB is something that worries hon. Members. The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk) wanted the NEB to do all sorts of other things, but he was very critical of its lack of accountability. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Watkinson), who is a member of the Public Accounts Committee, said that it should be more accountable to Parliament. I myself have asked about 250 questions about the NEB, only a small proportion of which have been properly answered. Some have not been answered at all. That is wrong, and it is something on which the House should insist.
  The Public Accounts Committee, which is made up of hon. Members from all parts of the House, has clearly stated that the Comptroller and Auditor General should be allowed to look at the books and the papers of the NEB so that he can report to the PAC. There is no reason why that should not be done in confidence in those cases which are commercially sensitive or over which there are difficulties.
  The NEB is not a private sector company responsible only to a set of shareholders.
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  It is responsible to every citizen of this country, and through the House of Commons we must be able to demand more information. It is quite astounding that it should ask for this huge amount of money with no prospectus whatever for the future. Is it really conceivable that any other company in any other country in the free world could do that? It is not. Indeed, every commentator, whatever his political colour, has said that this is grotesque.
  It should be understood that the powers of the Secretary of State under the 1975 Industry Act are very wide indeed with regard to the Board. They verge on dictatorial. They affect Board appointments, financial objectives, directions under section 3 and specific directions to take over particular companies. Those are very wide measures. For example, not only can the NEB get the £4,500 million under this Bill but, under a section 3 directive, the Secretary of State can also move about £1,600 million out of 1972 Industry Act money into the NEB. These are terrific dictatorial powers, yet the House cannot control them.
  When introducing the 1975 Industry Act, the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East said that it would provide powers to extend public ownership. That was true. But he said that this would be done through the full parliamentary process. But four years later we have yet to discover what the full parliamentary process is. Ministers can, as it were, come along to the House and in a one-and-a-half hour debate can extend, first from £700 million to £1,000 million, and now from £3,000 million to £4,500 million, the amount of money to be allocated to the NEB. Is that a full parliamentary process?
  Of course, in a sense the process is an enabling Act, because it enables a Labour Government to pick off any company they choose if they want. The NEB has not yet been able to do a lot of nationalisation, but given this huge amount of money it could do almost whatever it wants. If the House approves this enormous amount of money, a £4,500 million blank cheque will be put into the hands of the NEB, without any control. That will fuel the engine of future nationalisation, with no parliamentary brake or check on the Board's actions

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  or performance. It makes a mockery of any pretence that Parliament can have control over taxpayers' money.
  In considering the Bill the House must ask itself several questions. Is this huge sum needed? Has the case been made out in detail? If we do not get answers tonight, I am certain that we shall pursue them in Committee, because the £2,000 million blank cheque on top of what the Secretary of State described last week has not been explained away.
  Could not the money be found from the NEB's own resources? Which companies could be returned to the market so that a profit could be chalked up for the taxpayer and, if necessary, that money used for something else? My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East made this perfectly clear, and he should not be derided for insisting that the NEB's money should be turned over more frequently. What it should not be able to do is to whistle up more money as one would whistle up a taxi outside the House of Commons.
  I have already mentioned accountability. If the House doe not get satisfactory answers to all these questions, I believe that it should vote against the Bill. If it does not suceed in voting against it tonight, we should give the Minister a very tough time in Committee in order to try to protect and safeguard the taxpayer against the excesses of the NEB.
  6.6 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Lamont: This has been an unsatisfactory debate, and not just because it has been like a five-day test match split in two over the weekend, with the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) playing the role of night watchman. It is also unsatisfactory because, under one Bill, we have had to consider three very different institutions. They are different animals which stem from different legislation, and there is no reason at all why they should have been taken under this one Bill.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) pointed out, one difference between the SDA and the NEB is that only 20 per cent. of its activities are actually industrial investment. The rest comprises advance factory building, environmental programmes
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  and programmes such as the rehabilitation of the east end of Glasgow. Of course, we regard those programmes as extremely important and ones of which we wholly approve.
  Even in terms of industrial activities there is a difference between the development agencies and the NEB. Not only are the development agencies' activities on a smaller scale, but they are also usually undertaken in conjunction with private enterprise. For example, SDA projects usually have private capital outweighing public capital in the ratio of three to one. The vital test of the market is still there and there is, therefore, less of a reason why the development agencies could be regarded as instruments for the extension of State ownership.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) pointed out, our criticisms of the development agencies are somewhat more muted than our criticisms of the NEB. We shall retain the agencies, give them different guidelines, discourage them from rescuing lame ducks and encourage them to turn over their investments. Indeed, I agree with what the hon. Member for Colne Valley said about this. Why should anyone object to that? That merely takes the development agencies at their own valuation. If they believe that there is some function which they can do profitably, and which ought to be done, they ought to be quite willing to finance some of their future investments out of the profits which they are so confident that they will make on their present investments. We are only taking them at their own word.
  Of course, not everything that the development agencies have done is marvellous. There have been some failures. As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North said, there have been some cases of companies complaining about SDA-backed companies taking away skilled labour, and there have been other examples of companies complaining of unfair competition from SDA-backed companies. That is always a danger whenever the State intervenes to support, just as there is also a danger that this sort of intervention will lead to the politicisation of industry—an ugly word for an ugly thing. There is always the temptation for jobs and investment to be allocated by some trade union or bureaucratic committee.

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  I know that the Minister of State is fond of quoting my hon. Friends who write and ask him for Government aid for particular projects. Before he stands up tonight to rebuke my hon. Friends yet again, let me do it for him. Alas, we are mortal men and all of us wish to do our best for our constituencies. However, as long as we continue to put political and social objectives before commercial interests in this country we will not get the industrial recovery that the country needs.
  Our main criticism of the development agencies is that the money allocated to them under this Bill is too much. Perhaps I ought to say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh. North pointed out, that it would be too much if one could be sure that the agencies were in fact going to get the money. There remains the suspicion that all the Government are doing is writing some meaningless figures on a picee of paper in a rather grubby attempt to rustle up some votes from the Scottish nationalists. Either way, real or pretend, we are against it.
  Our main concern in this debate centres on the increased finance for the NEB. A number of hon. Members have laid emphasis on the size of the NEB—it is now the sixth largest group in the country—but when they emphasise the size of the NEB and the employment involved I wish they would also emphasise that size brings dangers. Size brings the tremendous prospective financial burden on the Exchequer and the borrowing requirement if and when the NEB goes wrong.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Page) said that hon. Members opposite used to contrast the NEB with the Italian State company IRI. We hear much less of that kind of comparison now. Is it any wonder? The debts of the IRI have grown and grown. It became involved in the political process, and its debts at one time were threatening to match those of the Italian Government. I was amused to read in The Times the views of the Italian Communist Party on State holding companies. To judge by what it says, it understands the market economy somewhat better than the so-called British Liberal Party. One of the Italian Communist Party's spokesmen, a Professor Mangetti, gave an interview to The Times about
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  State holding companies in which he warned of the dangers of growing indebtedness, the threat of surreptitious nationalisation, and the desirability of selling off those investments which could be sold. Above all, he said that it was much more important, from the point of view of industry, to encourage entrepreneurs than to create new agencies. When I look at the Tribune group opposite or listen to their views, I wish that we could exchange them for some of the Gucci comrades.
  Much of this debate has been taken up with Rolls-Royce and British Leyland. A number of hon. Members have referred to Rolls-Royce as a success. We hope that they are right, but on reading the report of the NEB one can see the concern over the profitability and productivity of Rolls-Royce. The accounts portray a cash-hungry company making very marginal profits.
  At the same time, hardly a week goes by without Rolls-Royce announcing some tremendous new contract. That is very good as far as it goes, but let us remember that 10 years ago Rolls-Royce announced that it had won the contract of the century. The trouble was that the terms were ruinous. The flow of orders Rolls-Royce is now getting makes it all the more important that there should be a decent return. Contracts that do not offer sufficient profit or which cannot finance investment and pay dividends are no less ruinous just because the name in the shareholders' register is the magic initials NEB. It is just as bad for the country as a whole, and that is why we are extremely disappointed that the Secretary of State has not announced, as he said he would, any target rate of return for Rolls-Royce.
  After two and a half years of the NEB we still do not know what rate of return Rolls-Royce is meant to be earning. How can one be confident, therefore, that this State-backed company has any discipline imposed on it whatever?
  The Secretary of State said that this Bill was essential for the future of British Leyland. I do not believe that, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) explained why that statement was rubbish. However, if that were true it would mean that the Secretary of State was treating this House with very great arrogance and contempt.

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  It would mean that he was saying that the House had no option but to grant this money to the Government because it was essential for British Leyland. At the same time, as my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) pointed out, the Secretary of State gave us not a single piece of worthwhile information about British Leyland.
  He promised us, in April, when he introduced the last NEB Bill that there would be a review last November and every November subsequently. What happened to that review? We do not know how much of the money that Parliament voted has gone on wages and how much has gone on investment. When the Secretary of State was asked that last April, he did not know then, and he still does not know today.
  We do not know whether British Leyland has met its productivity targets. What we know from the newspapers is that it has not succeeded in getting its target market share, nor has it succeeded in reducing overmanning, as it had planned. It therefore seems unlikely that it has generated the funds for investment from its own sources. We should not have to guess these things; it is for the Secretary of State to tell us.
  But perhaps I am doing the Secretary of State an injustice. He is not keeping us in the dark. The truth is that he is in the dark too. All the evidence shows that he has not got very much control over British Leyland. Earlier this year in a written answer it was announced that £275 mill ion was being loaned to British Leyland. When the Department of Industry was asked by the PAC whether the House of Commons ought not to have been given more time to consider this, we were told that the Department did not know that so many short-term bank loans were maturing. But it coughed up the £275 million all the same.
  It is because of incidents such as this that the question of accountability is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel has said, a deeply serious one.
  If the NEB chairman, Sir Leslie Murphy, had known of the lack of information in the Secretary of State's speech he really could not have argued, as he did before the PAC, that responsibility to the Secretary of State is the same as responsibility to the House of Commons.
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  Nobody is suggesting that the day-to-day activities of the NEB should be interfered with, but it is anomalous, surely, that the SDA can be investigated by the PAC and the NEB cannot. Some of the reasons advanced by Sir Leslie were all too reminiscent of the arguments advanced against the investigation of the Crown Agents by the PAC. When Sir Leslie pleads the example of the nationalised industries, I think that he ought to remember that the nationalised industries have a very close relationship with some of the Committees of this House. We do not have such a relationship with the NEB at the moment and the present situation is not satisfactory. There must be greater accountability.
  I turn now to the investments of the NEB, and before I look at them as a whole perhaps I could make a comment on two points. The first concerns the involvement of the NEB in microelectronics. A number of hon. Members have talked about that as though the very fact that the NEB is involved in microelectronics is by itself a sufficient justification for the NEB's existence. We are deeply sceptical of what the NEB is doing on microelectronics, but we should like more details from the Minister of State. I hope that when he winds up the debate he will give us some details.
  For example, will he tell us about the taxation arrangements for the Anglo-American entrepreneurs who will be working for INMOS? If even half of what has been written in the newspapers is true, that goes a long way to justify what we on the Conservative Benches have always held, that under Britain's present tax regime it is not possible to found new industries in this country.
  Secondly, will the Minister tell us how much of INMOS's activities is to be carried out overseas? I gather from some newspapers that it will manufacture not only in America but possibly in the Far East. Whilst I have no objection to companies manufacturing overseas, I merely observe that those on the Labour Benches who are the first to argue that the NEB is filling a gap in our industrial process are the very people who are the first to criticise any British company whenever it chooses, for the best of commercial reasons, to invest overseas.
  We remain highly sceptical of what the NEB is doing in this field. It will

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  face great competition both from British companies and international companies. I know that ITT is already a bogy name to some Labour Members. Perhaps it will be even more of a bogy name when they discover what competition it will provide for INMOS. Already, ITT is producing the 64K chip that INMOS has been set up specifically to produce. It is producing those chips in this country, at its worldwide micro-chip headquarters in Sidcup, at the rate of 600,000 chips a month.
  We hope that our scepticism will be confounded, but we fear that, like many other Government ventures into high technology, this will be another headlong rush down a cul-de-sac.
  One aspect of the NEB's investment policy that we wholly approve of is the decision to sell off some investments. We welcome the fact that Sir Leslie Murphy has taken a less doctrinaire view and that, with an eye on the next Conservative Government, has already started implementing ow policies. As my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) said, there are many things in the NEB's portfolio that could be sold off. We shall encourage the NEB to do that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) quoted the astonishing statement made by the Secretary of State last week. I could hardly believe it when I heard it, but one of the advantages of this split debate is that one can look in Hansard and discover whether the things that one could not believe were said were actually said. The Secretary of State said:
  "The NEB is by any objective assessment one of the great success stories of British industry."—[Official Report, 18 January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2023.]
  He did not say "one of the great political successes of the Labour Government in getting it set up". He said "one of the great industrial successes". I wonder what he was thinking of. Was he thinking of the miserable profits the NEB has earned on its turnover? Is he seriously arguing that the future of British Leyland has just been assured because of the NEB? Or was he, as my hon. Friend said, thinking of the rate of return it has earned on its investments?
  The rate of return is lower this year than last year. Even excluding British
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  Leyland and Rolls-Royce, it is 11·7 per cent., which compares with 18 per cent. earned in a private sector conglomerate, such as Thomas Tilling. It is well below the average for British industry and well below the 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. target that the NEB has set itself for only two years' time.
  There is a curious thing about the 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. target. When Sir Peter Carey appeared before the Public Accounts Committee he admitted that the reason 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. had been chosen as a target was that that was expected to be the rate that British industry would be earning in 1981. Labour Members must forgive our puzzlement. I had always thought that the object of the NEB was to improve our industrial performance, and that one of the things that was wrong with us was that our rate of return was so low. But apparently we should now use taxpayers' money simply to achieve what we are already not doing very well in this country.
  We are very puzzled, because we hear bright-eyed executives from the NEB talking about how they will knock hell out of private enterprise, how they will found new industries. Why is it that these latter-day Rockefellers and Carnegies are so modest when it comes to measuring their own performance?
  Perhaps the reason is that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie) pointed out, so many of the investments have begun to go wrong: Power Dynamics, receiver appointed; Hyvent, insolvent; Thwaites and Reed, down the spout—an investment of which Lord Ryder said, when asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Taylor) why the NEB had invested in it, "Because the opportunity is so breathtaking." Now it has gone. The losses at Barrow Hepburn may eventually top £4 million. Alfred Herbert has consumed £10 million in six months and is still making losses.
  But whenever one mentions any of those points the Minister of State has the same reply: "You can't win 'em all." Of course, "You can't win 'em all" when every company that has been turned down by its bank manager is knocking at your door. But the question is, is the NEB even winning most of them?

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  I looked at the details about the companies that are consolidated in the NEB's last accounts. There are 17 which the NEB did not inherit from the Department of Industry and which it was not compelled to take. Nine of them are making losses and eight are making profits. The losses outweigh the profits by three or four to one. Labour Members may say "It will take time and it is difficult." But it is difficult to believe that when so many investments have already gone wrong the NEB will lead to the regeneration of British industry. It is difficult to believe that those struggling tiddlers will make any difference to Britain's overall industrial performance.
  Nor will some of the other activities, such as the NEB's punting on the Stock Exchange with taxpayers' money. I am amazed that Labour Members do not ask questions about that. The NEB buys shares in companies such as Brown Boveri on the stock market. Why? The reason is obvious: it buys them in order to buy the profit figures to consolidate them in its accounts. Again, Labour Members must forgive our being amazed. We listened year after year to speeches by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) telling us how the NEB would alter things in the real world—and the real world was where people made things, not where pieces of paper chased pieces of paper and people made money out of money. Apparently, all that has now gone, and in next year's NEB annual report we can confidently expect to see that the NEB has invested in bottles of port and Tiepolos. That would make no less difference to British industry than its activities in the stock market.
  Some Labour Members cling to the belief that in the longer term the NEB will achieve the impossible and make an impact on our industrial performance. We believe that that is an illusion and that the NEB will almost inevitably be tempted to do things that it should not do.
  Why should one believe that the NEB will be able to overcome the problems of the hostile environment to business in this country any better than the private sector? Why should one believe that there is a pool of talent available to the NEB that is not available to private industry in general? Why should one believe
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  that managers in the NEB will see opportunities that those in British industry cannot already see?
  One answer may be provided in the planning booklet that the NEB gives to its subsidiary and associate companies. It is full of profound advice for drawing up a five-year plan:
  "Analyse/assess the company's strength and weaknesses
  Identify key problems and opportunities".
  Over the page there is even a diagram, no doubt drawn by a highly-paid management consultant. Under the heading "Problem: Low productivity" is an arrow leading to the solution "Modernise plant". We also read "Problem": "High risk" followed by another arrow leading to the solution "Invest to maintain technical lead."
  The significant thing about this pamphlet is not the banality of it, because no company that needs advice is going to be saved by getting such advice. What is significant is what it does not say. It does not say "Low productivity—look at the problems of over-manning." It does not say that, because it dare not say that, and it dare not say that because the NEB operates within a political framework. It operates within the framework laid down in its guidelines, which give it incompatible objectives. In addition to achieving a second Industrial Revolution, the NEB is also to promote regional policy, promote consumer interests and promote industrial democracy. That cannot all be done together; it cannot be done and reconciled with the Prime Minister's declaration that the object of industrial policy must be to put industrial objectives before social objectives.
  The whole thinking behind the NEB is wrong. Our problem in this country is not lack of investment. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer now understands that. He said in one of his Mansion House speeches that
  "Our problem is not a lack of investment; it is getting a decent return out of the investment we have got already."
  Our problem in this country is our lack of competitiveness. It is a problem that has existed for many years, but this Government have achieved something astonishing; they have managed to make it even worse by a deliberate policy of subsidising uncompetitiveness. Week after

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  week Ministers stand at the Dispatch Box boasting of their addiction to failed capitalists, of how they are handing out money to private industry, of how they are making plans to strengthen private enterprise. It sounds wonderful, these endless sums of money, as long as one does not look at one thing, and that is the result. The result has been that our productivity is now almost the worst in the whole OECD area. Our productivity has sunk because the Government cannot make up their mind whether they want to have productive industry or indoor welfare—a twentieth century version of the workhouse.
  The Minister of State will no doubt make his usual speech about the Tories wanting to destroy jobs. It is good stuff, and the delivery gets better each time he makes it. But he never addresses himself to the argument that higher living standards and better social services in fact come from the destruction of bad, unsound, unprofitable jobs and their replacement by sound jobs. It is the unique achievement of this Government to prop up bad jobs and to do everything possible to prevent the appearance of good, profitable jobs.
  Real job creation is the task of management, choosing the projects which stand a chance of success, and the present Government, alas, have done everything possible to undermine the morale and authority of management. They listen only to the voice of the unions, which have been allowed to veto the elimination of bad jobs. If we want rising living standards in this country, we shall have to remove the trade union veto.
  The NEB is irrelevant to the wider tasks that need to be done. If this Government really wanted to reverse our industrial decline they would start today cutting public spending, cutting taxes and reforming the trade unions. They will not do it, they cannot do it, but the next Government can do it and will do it.
  I urge my hon. Friends both to vote against the Bill and to vote for our amendment.
  6.35 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Gerald Kaufman): It was instructive to listen to the call for the destruction of bad, unsound jobs and an
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  end to subsidies from the spokesman of the party that nationalised Upper Clyde Shipbuilders, and nationalised Rolls-Royce in 17 hours—a record nationalisation in the history of this House. The Tory Party is, of course, ambivalent, and must be, in view of its record, in view of its industrial history and in view of its legislation dealing with aid. And it must be, and is, ambivalent concerning the National Enterprise Board.
  It is clear from the debate and from the ambivalent contributions, the differing contributions, the contributions which have disagreed with each other, from hon. Gentlemen opposite, that they are very bothered indeed by the whole concept of the NEB and what to do about it.
  My hon. Friends on this side have made it perfectly clear in this debate that they are firmly in favour of the National Enterprise Board. They may have criticisms of what it does or, more frequently, of what it does not do that they think it should. My right hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) and my hon. Friends the Members for Consett (Mr. Watkins) and Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) understandably advocated greater activity in the Northern region, and my hon. Friend the Member for Consett put forward a programme for advancing industrial democracy. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Sever) spoke up for the West Midlands, and he will certainly be glad to know that more workers are employed by NEB companies in the West Midlands than in any other part of the country.
  However they may differ in viewing the work of the National Enterprise Board as incomplete, my hon. Friends welcome the approach of the NEB and value its existence. But it is clear from this debate that the Tories are perplexed by the NEB. They do not know what to think about it and they do not know what to do about it, and the reason is clear. The National Enterprise Board is a new idea, and a new idea is something that always troubles the Tory mind.
  What is more, it is a new idea that is working, a new concept that is accepted—accepted simultaneously by Tribune and the Financial Times accepted simultaneously by shop stewards and the Confederation of British Industry, whose deputy director only recently

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  made a speech firmly opposing the abolition of the NEB, the Scottish Development Agency and the Welsh Development Agency, which he said would be
  "a blow to stability and consistency".
  The fact is that only three years after it came into being, and despite the unsupported jibes of hon. Members opposite, the National Enterprise Board is so integral a part of Britain's industrial life that it is impossible to imagine how we would get on without it. Whenever a difficult situation arises, whenever an industrial problem is highlighted, someone—whether a trade unionist, a banker, an industrialist or, as often happens, a Conservative Member of Parliament—is likely to come to us and ask us to send for the NEB. Indeed, one of the greatest challenges facing the National Enterprise Board today is that so much—maybe, as the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) warned, too much—is expected of it.
  To recall some of the statements made less than four years ago by hon. Members opposite during the Committee stage of the 1975 Industry Bill, to which we have had reference today from the Opposition, is to peer back into political pre-history. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), whom we miss from this debate, prophesied that the NEB would be a dismal failure.
  The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), whom we very much miss from the Front Bench opposite on these matters, gave us the characteristically utter certainty which we can always expect from him when he said:
  "We simply do not believe that the National Enterprise Board will earn an adequate return".—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 13 March 1975; c. 184.]
  And we recall the lame attempt at humour by the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton), whom we are glad to welcome to the debate, when he said:
  "The name will be changed to the National Disaster Board or the National Disintegration Company."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 4 March 1975; c. 46.]
  Mr. Tim Renton: I must thank the Minister for sending me another of his billets-doux saying that he was intending to make reference to me during his winding-up speech tonight. When I first started receiving these letters from
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  the right hon. Gentleman they used to strike terror into my heart, but I am now making a collection of them to frame and hang in my loo.
  May I just suggest to the Minister that, rather than waste the time of the House on those smears and personal innuendos at which he is a past master, he spends some time telling the House about the developments in INMOS and answering the questions concerning microelectronics that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont) asked him? In particular, will be answer the question that I would have asked him if I had caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Is it not a fact that the NEB, in the field of microelectronics, has backed the most risky side of all, the manufacture of integrated circuits, when it would have done far better to go for consideration of applications, and that this would have employed many more people in the United Kingdom than what the NEB has chosen?
  Mr. Kaufman: I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman for calling it a smear when I quote him directly. Far from the NEB being a dismal failure, as the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury warned, the NEB, despite the logic chopping of the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern), is earning a profit on its own investments. Far from failing to earn an adequate return, as the hon. Member for Henley prophesied, it is making satisfactory if not undeviating progress towards achieving its required rate of return. Even the hon. Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) admitted that it was moving in the right direction as regards rate of return. Far from being associated with disaster or disintegration, as the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex advised us would happen, it is increasingly linked with innovation. It is linked, for example, with the INMOS project—
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley because I referred to him, but before doing so I shall finish my sentence. The NEB has taken an important initiative in launching British industry into the silicon chip revolution. The hon. Member for Arundel has praised it for its pacesetting work on silicon chips.
  Mr. Hordern: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Secretary of State said that the public dividend capital that has been taken up so far by the NEB amounts to £439 million. Where does he suppose that that money is coming from? Does he not recognise that it comes from the taxpayer, and cannot be borrowed at the moment at less than 14 per cent.? The interest on the sum must amount to at least £60 million a year—far exceeding any possible profit that the NEB is showing or can show.
  Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman knows that that has to be remunerated in the normal way.
  In their amendment the Tories claim that the House is not being given sufficient—
  Sir Keith Joseph: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what he means by
  "has to be remunerated in the normal way"?
  What did he mean by that?
  Mr. Kaufanm: I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the Act. I refer him to the statements that we made in the White Paper on nationalised industries about our attitude to the remuneration of public dividend capital. If he wishes to refer to those statements, we may refer to the issue in Committee.
  Sir K. Joseph: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that it is not remunerated?
  Mr. Kaufman: Public dividend capital is required to be remunerated. I refer the right hon. Gentleman, for example, to British Aerospace and its remuneration of public dividend capital.
  In their amendment the Tories claim that the House is not being given sufficient information about the activities and plans of the NEB to justify their voting the money. In their amendment they complain about what they describe as
  "totally inadequate documentary evidence".
  However, the Government and the NEB have gone considerably further in providing information than the Tories did in a similar situation. Last autumn the NEB issued an interim statement for the first half of 1978. The Board is required to issue six-monthly accounts under
  274
  schedule 2 to the Industry Act 1975. Regular accountability to Parliament was imposed on the Board by the Government. I am open to correction, but I have been unable to discover any Tory legislation that imposed similar parliamentary accountability on any comparable body.
  It is interesting to remember what happened when the borrowing limits of public sector bodies were increased during the period in office of the Tory Government. The Electricity Bill 1972 raised the borrowing limits of the Electricity Council and boards in England and Wales and of the two Scottish boards. Yes, England, Scotland and Wales—separate bodies—were lumped together in one Bill. However, the Opposition have the cheek to argue that it is improper for us to do the same thing in the Bill. The increases in the Tory Bill raised the limits from £5,200 million to a whopping £7,700 million. The increases were brought before Parliament on the strength of pamphlets issued by the organisations concerned. All that the Tory Government provided to inform Parliament was a completely uninformative eight-paragraph memorandum.
  When, also in 1972, the borrowing powers of the Post Office were increased from £2,800 million to £4,800 million, the Post Office issued a glossy brochure consisting predominantly of pretty coloured photographs. The Tory Government put no special documentary evidence before the House at all. However, the Tories have the nerve to attack us for providing inadequate documentary evidence.
  As the NEB becomes more and more securely established and more and more readily accepted, the Tory Party becomes more and more uncertain about how to approach it. Atavistic instinct says "Club it to death". Cautious self-interest warns "Come to terms with it".
  An instructive illustration is the Tory attitude to the NEB's project for manufacturing standard silicon chips—the INMOS project. The Tory Party's public posture, reiterated by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont), has been to pour scorn on INMOS as a hare-brained device for squandering taxpayers' money. The hon. Gentleman asked about the possibility of offshore activity by INMOS. It would be better to have an indigenous industry with offshore work added than to settle for being

  275
  an offshore offshoot of America and Japan, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) advocates.
  The Tories pour scorn on the INMOS project but at the same time I receive letters from Tory Members putting in a claim for the project for their own areas. The letters have been pouring in. I have a sheaf of these letters in my hand. They make moving reading.
  The hon. Member for City of Chester (Mr. Morrison) requested:
  "I would be grateful to know what are the chances of all or part of this new industry being located in the North-West."
  The hon. Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman) was rather more precise in her solicitations. She wrote:
  "I very much hope you will insist that the NEB should establish it in the North-West—preferably at another site at Heysham or White Lund."
  Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: As the right hon. Gentleman's Government have always clobbered, and continue to clobber, the North-West, especially Lancaster, by giving it less for education and less for health, and since unemployment in the area is infinitely higher—in Lancaster it is now 7·9 per cent.—if there is anything by which the Government are to improve employment prospects it is my duty to get the improvement. However, the Government should give us a fairer deal in all the other respects.
  Mr. Kaufman: I took the trouble to compile for one of my constituents, who lives in the Levenshulme district of Manchester, a complete account of what the Government have done for the North-West. It is an exceptionally impressive document and I shall send a copy of it to the hon. Lady tomorrow.
  The hon. Lady pleaded for Heysham or White Lund, but her hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker) had different ideas. She wrote:
  "I write to urge you to ensure that all or part of the new industry will be located on Merseyside."
  But she was very much at odds with her hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Cope). He wrote:
  "I hope you will be able to confirm to me that your Department will be at least neutral
  276
  on the choice, so that Avon can be considered by the company".
  Mrs. Lynda Chalker rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall give way to the hon. Lady in a moment. That would not be universally popular, because the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) wrote—[Interruption.] The line stretches out to the crack of doom, but when I have completed it I shall gladly give way. The hon. Member for Tynemouth wrote:
  "I am writing to urge you to decide in favour of Tyne and Wear".
  But none was equal to the eloquence of the hon. and learned Member for Colchester (Mr. Buck), who wrote:
  "If all the relevant factors are considered, Colchester is from every point of view an ideal location."
  Mr. Antony Buck: I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way and also for his courtesy in sending me a letter which ended in the way that my hon. Friend indicated and no doubt will help the interior decor in my house. It was courteous of the Minister to write to me in the way that he did. If these funds are to be made available, the right hon. Gentleman is merely showing what conscientious Conservative Members of Parliament are doing to ensure that their constituents get their proper share and due. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will quote from what has been said by some of his hon. Friends, which shows that they, too, have been assiduous in speaking for their own constituencies.
  Mr. Kaufman: Conscientious they certainly are, but they are desperately at odds with each other, as the hon. Lady will now make clear in her intervention.
  Mrs. Chalker: The hon. Gentleman is well aware that under his Government Merseyside suffers from the highest unemployment anywhere in this country. If there is a new development from which young people—and on Merseyside we have double the southern average of young people unemployed—may benefit, then to my dying day, even against a few of my colleagues in my party, I shall fight for Merseyside.
  Mr. Grylls Mr. Grylls rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I hope the Minister is not going to read a succession of these letters, otherwise we shall be here till midnight with all these interventions.
  Mr. Grylls Mr. Grylls rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman did not ask for it. Instead, he has work from British Aerospace for his constituency. I am being selective here, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and will not stretch these out, but this goes on, from Cumbria, from where we had a passionate plea for his area from the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Page)—who in this very debate denounced this Bill as galloping Socialism—all the way to Cornwall. All of these hon. Members who wrote to us, all the hon. Members who have intervened during my speech this evening who were bitterly vying wth each other to win the project for their area, are united in one thing; the votes they will cast in the Division Lobby this evening to ensure that the project does not go ahead at all.
  It is fascinating to trace the evolution of Tory policy towards the NEB. At first there was no doubt about it at all. Perorating grandiloquently at the end of his speech on the Second Reading of the Industry Bill, the hon. Member for Henley proclaimed in February 1975:
  "It will destroy, not create jobs. It will divide management and unions, not bring them together ߪ I tell the House, on behalf of the Conservative Party, that we shall repeal this Bill."—[Official Report, 17 February 1975; Vol. 886, c. 965.]
  Uncompromising words, apparently endorsed in the statement of aims published by the hon. Gentleman's party the following year, in 1976. That invaluable document "The Right Approach" declared:
  "The National Enterprise Board must be abolished."
  But a shadow of doubt seemed to have crept in. "The Right Approach" continued:
  "though we shall have to retain some sort of administrative mechanism for selling off NEB shareholdings where this is possible, and for administering those which cannot be sold off immediately."
  Mr. Nick Budgen: Quite right.
  Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) says "Quite right" and his hon.
  278
  Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames was perfectly certain about it. Speaking from the Front Bench opposite in January 1977, he declared that they had made clear that they would get rid of the NEB and said that in that way the policy had not changed one iota or scintilla.
  Later that year the iotas and scintillas were infiltrating subversively, as they have a way of doing when the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) interprets his party's policy. He told the readers of the Birmingham Post in August 1977:
  "It is rubbish to suggest that we would immediately cut the lifeline of State-assisted firms such as Leyland. They need help to get back on their feet. … We are committed to holding the firms now owned by the NEB until any hope of recovery is abandoned."
  Mr. Norman Lamont Mr. Norman Lamont rose—
  Mr. Kaufman: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment. What Lowestoft reinterprets today Leeds reassesses tomorrow, and to a somewhat more specialised audience—the readers of Computer Weekly—the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East confided in April 1978 that the only role he saw for the NEB was as
  "A financial standby of last resort and a casualty clearing station. We do not intend to leave it with scope for acquisition into the private sector and no money will be made available to acquire companies or parts of companies."
  Even that statement, however, was not the final word in this evolving approach.
  The hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), whom this Conservative Central Office handout identifies as "an Opposition spokesman on industry", told Huddersfield business men on 4 January last:
  "A Conservative Government will only make slow and cautious changes in industrial policy. … The National Enterprise Board will carry on but we will want safeguards on its ability to buy into profitable companies."
  So in less than four years the Conservatives have come round from insisting on the complete abolition of the NEB to accepting its role of buying into profitable companies—with suitable safeguards.
  Mr. Norman Lamont: The Minister started his speech by saying that the NEB was accountable to Parliament. Is he, therefore, going to answer a single question that has been raised today? Will he, for example, when we are told that

  279
  the Bill is essential for British Leyland, tell us why the review which the Secretary of State said would take place this November and every November has not been mentioned so far?
  Mr. Kaufman: I am responding directly to the amendment which the Opposition have tabled. I am quoting directly and responding to it, but hon. Gentlemen opposite apparently do not like their amendment being debated.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: What about Scotland?
  Mr. Kaufman: I am coming to the Scotland Bill.
  Meanwhile, the hon. Gentleman has to reconcile that the National Enterprise Board must be abolished in October 1976 with the assertion that the NEB will carry on in December 1978. While the policy of hon. Gentlemen opposite changes, their votes stay the same. They voted to prevent the birth of the NEB, and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. They will be voting tonight to extinguish them all, for that would be the inevitable effect of their votes tonight if they are successful, and the impact throughout the United Kingdom would be catastrophic. Scotland and Wales would suffer if the work of their development agencies were brought to an end.
  In Wales, over 3,000 jobs have been created and many more have been safeguarded by the Welsh Development Agency. In Scotland, 35,000 workers depend upon the Scottish Development Agency. That brings us, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) has requested, to the extraordinary terms of the amendment:
  "while accepting the usefulness of a significant part of the work of the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies",
  and so on. We have heard of the curious incident of the dog that did not bark in the night time, but on this occasion the Tory corgis and Scottish terriers have been tremulously wagging their tails and they have their tongues out ready for a cautious lick.
  In his speech on Thursday last, the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East brought us the startling news:
  "Much of the work of the agencies … is valued in Scotland and Wales."—[Official Report, 18 January 1979; Vol. 960, c. 2045.]
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  But it just will not do. The Tories cannot live down their past. When it really mattered, when the House was considering the Bills setting up those valued Scottish and Welsh agencies, the Tories both barked and bit. Opposing the Second Reading of the Welsh Bill, the Tory spokesman on Wales declared that they believed that the agency as constituted would encourage a misdirection of resources, both human and financial, in a series of dubious ventures.
  On the Second Reading of the Scottish Bill, their spokesman said that the Tories had many objections to it, that the agency was unnecessary and, for good measure, that it was not needed. They voted against the Second Reading of both Bills, and they voted against them 47 more times in succeeding stages. But they now have the sauce to talk about their usefulness.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: Will the Minister accept that what makes an enormous difference is that 90 per cent. of the work carried out by the Scottish Development Agency was being carried out by other Government bodies beforehand and, under Conservative Governments, extremely well?
  Mr. Kaufman: But the hon. Gentleman said—indeed, I quoted his remarks—that the agency was not necessary and was subject to many objections. Now, in the Tory amendment, he seeks to praise it.
  It is not only by preventing money going to the agencies that the Tories seek to damage Scotland and Wales tonight. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) said, they do so as well by their attack on the NEB. In addition to the agencies, NEB companies are established at 12 locations in Scotland and in five locations in Wales. There are six in the Eastern region of England, 42 in the South-East, seven in the East Midlands, five in Yorkshire and Humberside, 16 in the West Midlands, seven in the South-West, 11 in the Northern region, and 20 in the North-West. There is not a country or region in the United Kingdom that would not be damaged if this Bill did not go through, for the NEB is now firmly established throughout the country as a valued and needed industrial instrument.

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  In 1977 its subsidiaries exported well over £1,000 million worth of goods. A total of 330,000 workers are employed directly by NEB companies, and hundreds of thousands more work for supplying companies. All their jobs will be threatened if this Bill is not carried tonight.
  Of course, for the Tories a vote to maim or cripple the NEB, the SDA and the WDA, or to wipe them out entirely, is completely in character. For five years now they have remorselessly voted against every measure by this Government to

  Division No. 46]

  AYES

  [7.02 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Dykes, Hugh

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Alison, Michael

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Elliott, Sir William

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Arnold, Tom

  Emery, Peter

  Hurd, Douglas

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

  Awdry, Daniel

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  James, David

  Baker, Kenneth

  Farr, John

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd)

  Banks, Robert

  Fell, Anthony

  Jessel, Toby

  Beith, A. J.

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Bell, Ronald

  Fisher, Sir Nigel

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Bendall, Vivian

  Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

  Jopling, Michael

  Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Benyon, W.

  Forman, Nigel

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Biffen, John

  Fox, Marcus

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Blaker, Peter

  Freud, Clement

  King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

  Body, Richard

  Fry, Peter

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

  Kitson, Sir Timothy

  Bottomley, Peter

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

  Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

  Knox, David

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham)

  Lamont, Norman

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Brittan, Leon

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Goodhart, Philip

  Lawson, Nigel

  Brotherton, Michael

  Goodhew, Victor

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Gorst, John

  Lloyd, Ian

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Loveridge, John

  Buck, Antony

  Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

  Luce, Richard

  Budgen, Nick

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Gray, Hamish

  McCrindle, Robert

  Burden, F. A.

  Grieve, Percy

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Griffiths, Eldon

  MacGregor, John

  Carlisle, Mark

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Grist, Ian

  Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

  Channon, Paul

  Grylis, Michael

  McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell)

  Madel, David

  Clark, William (Croydon S)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Marten, Neil

  Clegg, Walter

  Hannam, John

  Mates, Michael

  Cockcroft, John

  Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mather, Carol

  Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

  Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

  Maude, Angus

  Cope, John

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mawby, Ray

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hastings, Stephen

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Corrie, John

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Costain, A. P.

  Hawkins, Paul

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Critchley, Julian

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Crouch, David

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Mills, Peter

  Crowder, F. P.

  Heseltine, Michael

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  Hicks, Robert

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Moate, Roger

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Hodgson, Robin

  Molyneaux, James

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Holland, Philip

  Monro, Hector

  du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

  Hordern, Peter

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Durant, Tony

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Moore, John(Croydon C)

  preserve or create employment. From Leyland to Herbert's, from the Polish shipbuilding deal to the Lindsey oil refinery, they have cast their votes in favour of the dole queue. But the NEB, the SDA and the WDA have proved their worth, and this Bill will give them a chance to build on what they have already achieved. I call on the House to vote for the Second Reading.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 276, Noes 295.

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

  Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

  Morgan, Geraint

  Rhodes James, R.

  Stokes, John

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

  Ridley, Hon Nicholas

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Tapsell, Peter

  Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

  Mudd, David

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Neave, Airey

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Nelson, Anthony

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Neubert, Michael

  Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

  Townsend, Cyril D.

  Newton, Tony

  Royle, Sir Anthony

  Trotter, Neville

  Nott, John

  Sainsbury, Tim

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Onslow, Cranley

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Vaughan, Dr Gerard

  Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

  Scott, Nicholas

  Viggers, Peter

  Osborn, John

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Wakeham, John

  Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

  Shepherd, Colin

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Shersby, Michael

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

  Pardoe, John

  Silvester, Fred

  Wall, Patrick

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Sims, Roger

  Walters, Dennis

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Warren, Kenneth

  Penhaligon, David

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Percival, Ian

  Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

  Wells, John

  Peyton, Rt Hon John

  Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Pink. R. Bonner

  Speed, Keith

  Whitney, Raymond

  Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

  Spence, John

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Sproat, Iain

  Wood, Rt Hon Richard

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Stainton, Keith

  Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

  Raison, Timothy

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Rathbone, Tim

  Stanley, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Mr. Spencer Le Merchant and

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Mr. Michael Roberts.

  Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Corbett, Robin

  George, Bruce

  Allaun, Frank

  Cowans, Harry

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Anderson, Donald

  Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

  Ginsburg, David

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Craigen, Jim (Maryhill)

  Gould, Bryan

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Gourlay, Harry

  Ashton, Joe

  Cronin, John

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

  Cryer, Bob

  Grocott, Bruce

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Hardy, Peter

  Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

  Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Bates, Alf

  Davies, Rt Hon Denzil

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Bean, R. E.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Deakins, Eric

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Henderson, Douglas

  Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

  de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Home Robertson, John

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

  Hooley, Frank

  Boardman, H.

  Dempsey, James

  Horam, John

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Dewar, Donald

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Doig, Peter

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

  Dormand, J. D.

  Huckfield, Les

  Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

  Bradley, Tom

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Dunn, James A.

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Eadie, Alex

  Hunter, Adam

  Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

  Edge, Geoff

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Buchan, Norman

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

  Buchanan, Richard

  English, Michael

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Janner, Greville

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Campbell, Ian

  Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Canavan, Dennis

  Evans, John (Newton)

  John, Brynmor

  Cant, R. B.

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Faulds, Andrew

  Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

  Carter, Ray

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Flannery, Martin

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Cartwright, John

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Judd, Frank

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

  Ford, Ben

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Cohen, Stanley

  Forrester, John

  Kelley, Richard

  Coleman, Donald

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Kerr, Russell

  Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Concannon, Rt Hon John

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  Kinnock, Neil

  Conlan, Bernard

  Garrett, John (Norwich S)

  Lambie, David

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

  Lamborn, Harry

  284

  285

  Lamond, James

  Oakes, Gordon

  Strang, Gavin

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Ogden, Eric

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Swain, Thomas

  Lee, John

  Orbach, Maurice

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Lever, Rt Hon Harold

  Ovenden, John

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Padley, Walter

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Litterick, Tom

  Palmer, Arthur

  Thompson, George

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Park, George

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Parker, John

  Tierney, Sydney

  Loyden, Eddie

  Parry, Robert

  Tilley, John

  Luard, Evan

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Tinn, James

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Pendry, Tom

  Tomlinson, John

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Perry, Ernest

  Torney, Tom

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Phipps, Dr Colin

  Tuck, Raphael

  McCartney, Hugh

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Urwin, T. W.

  MacCormick, Iain

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Radice, Giles

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  McElhone, Frank

  Reid, George

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Ward, Michael

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

  Watkins, David

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Watkinson, John

  Maclennan, Robert

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Watt, Hamish

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Weetch, Ken

  McNamara, Kevin

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Weitzman David

  Madden, Max

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Magee, Bryan

  Rooker, J. W.

  Welsh, Andrew

  Mahon, Simon

  Roper, John

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  White, James (Pollok)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Rowlands, Ted

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Ryman, John

  Whitlock, William

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Selby, Harry

  Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

  Meacher, Michael

  Sever, John

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Molloy, William

  Silverman, Julius

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Moonman, Eric

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire)

  Woodall, Alec

  Morris, Rt Hon Charles R.

  Snape, Peter

  Woof, Robert

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Morton, George

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

  Stallard, A. W.

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donald

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Mr. James Hamilton and

  Newens, Stanley

  Stoddart, David

  Mr. Ted Graham.

  Noble, Mike

  Stott, Roger

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 39 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading):—
  The House divided: Ayes 294, Noes 275.

  Dewar, Donald

  Lamborn, Harry

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Doig, Peter

  Lamond, James

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Dormand, J. D.

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lee, John

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

  Dunn, James A.

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Rooker, J. W.

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lever, Rt Hon Harold

  Roper, John

  Eadie, Alex

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Edge, Geoff

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Litterick, Tom

  Ryman, John

  English, Michael

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Selby, Harry

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Sever, John

  Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  Luard, Evan

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

  Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Faulds, Andrew

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  McCartney, Hugh

  Silverman, Julius

  Flannery, Martin

  MacCormick, Iain

  Skinner, Dennis

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire)

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  McElhone, Frank

  Snape, Peter

  Ford, Ben

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Spearing, Nigel

  Forrester, John

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donald

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  Maclennan, Robert

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Garrett, John (Norwich S)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Stoddart, David

  Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

  McNamara, Kevin

  Stott, Roger

  George, Bruce

  Madden, Max

  Strang, Gavin

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Magee, Bryan

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Ginsburg, David

  Mahon, Simon

  Swain, Thomas

  Gould, Bryan

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Marks, Kenneth

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Graham, Ted

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Thomas, Ron (Eristol NW)

  Grocott, Bruce

  Meacher, Michael

  Thompson, George

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Tierney, Sydney

  Hardy, Peter

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Tilley, John

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Tinn, James

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

  Tomlinson, John

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Molloy, William

  Tuck, Raphael

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Moonman, Eric

  Urwin, T, W.

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Henderson, Douglas

  Morris, Rt Hon Charles R.

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Home Robertson, John

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Hooley, Frank

  Morton, George

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Horam, John

  Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

  Ward, Michael

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Watkins, David

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Watkinson, John

  Huckfield, Les

  Newens, Stanley

  Watt, Hamish

  Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

  Noble, Mike

  Weetch, Ken

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Weitzman, David

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Ogden, Eric

  Wellbeloved, James

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Welsh, Andrew

  Hunter, Adam

  Orbach, Maurice

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  White, James (Pollok)

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

  Ovenden, John

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Whitlock, William

  Janner, Greville

  Padley, Walter

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

  Palmer, Arthur

  Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Park, George

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Parker, John

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  John, Brynmor

  Parry, Robert

  Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

  Pendry, Tom

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Perry, Ernest

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Phipps, Dr Colin

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Woodall, Alec

  Judd, Frank

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Woof, Robert

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Radice, Giles

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Kelley, Richard

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Kerr, Russell

  Reid, George

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Kinnock, Neil

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Mr. John Evans and

  Lambie, David

  Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

  Mr. Joseph Dean.

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

  Beith, A. J.

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

  Bell, Ronald

  Alison, Michael

  Awdry, Daniel

  Bendall, Vivian

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Baker, Kenneth

  Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

  Arnold, Tom

  Banks, Robert

  Benyon, W.

  288

  289

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)

  Biffen, John

  Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell)

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Mudd, David

  Blaker, Peter

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Neave, Airey

  Body, Richard

  Hannam, John

  Nelson, Anthony

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Neubert, Michael

  Bottomley, Peter

  Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

  Newton, Tony

  Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Nott, John

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Onslow, Cranley

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

  Brittan, Leon

  Hawkins, Paul

  Osborn, John

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

  Brotherton, Michael

  Heseltine, Michael

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hicks, Robert

  Pardoe, John

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Hodgson, Robin

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Buck, Antony

  Holland, Philip

  Penhaligon, David

  Budgen, Nick

  Hordern, Peter

  Percival, Ian

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Burden, F. A.

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Carlisle, Mark

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Channon, Paul

  Hurd, Douglas

  Raison, Timothy

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Rathbone, Tim

  Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

  Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

  Clark, William (Croydon S)

  James, David

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)

  Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

  Clegg, Walter

  Jessel, Toby

  Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

  Cockcroft, John

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Rhodes James, R.

  Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Ridley, Hon Nicholas

  Cope, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Cormack, Patrick

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Corrie, John

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Costain, A. P.

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Critchley, Julian

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Crouch, David

  Kimball, Marcus

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Crowder, F. P.

  King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

  Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Royle, Sir Anthony

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Kitson, Sir Timothy

  Sainsbury, Tim

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Knox, David

  Scott, Nicholas

  du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

  Lamont, Norman

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Durant, Tony

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Shepherd, Colin

  Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Shersby, Michael

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lawson, Nigel

  Silvester, Fred

  Elliott, Sir William

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Sims, Roger

  Emery, Peter

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Eyre, Reginald

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  Lloyd, Ian

  Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  Loveridge, John

  Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

  Farr, John

  Luce, Richard

  Speed, Keith

  Fell, Anthony

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Spence, John

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  McCrindle, Robert

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

  Fisher, Sir Nigel

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Sproat, Iain

  Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

  MacGregor, John

  Stainton, Keith

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Forman, Nigel

  Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

  Stanley, John

  Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

  McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Fox, Marcus

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Madel, David

  Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

  Freud, Clement

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Stokes, John

  Fry, Peter

  Marten, Neil

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

  Mates, Michael

  Tapsell, Peter

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Mather, Carol

  Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

  Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

  Maude, Angus

  Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham)

  Mawby, Ray

  Tebbit, Norman

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Townsend, Cyril D.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Trotter, Neville

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mills, Peter

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Vaughan, Dr Gerard

  Gorst, John

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Viggers, Peter

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Moate, Roger

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

  Molyneaux, James

  Wakeham, John

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

  Monro, Hector

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

  Gray, Hamish

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

  Grieve, Percy

  Moore, John (Croydon C)

  Wall, Patrick

  Griffiths, Eldon

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Walters, Denis

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  Morgan, Geraint

  Warren, Kenneth

  Grist, Ian

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Grylls, Michael

  Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

  Wells, John

  290

  291

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Winterton, Nicholas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Whitney, Raymond

  Wood, Rt Hon Richard

  Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

  Mr. Michael Roberts.

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  INDUSTRY [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to the limits on sums borrowed by, or paid by Ministers of the Crown to the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish Development Agency and the Welsh Development Agency and subsidiaries of theirs, on sums paid by the Treasury in pursuance of guarantees of loans to the Board or either of those Agencies and on loans guaranteed by the Board or either of those Agencies or subsidiaries of the Scottish Development Agency, it is expedient to authorise all such increased payments—

  (a) out of the National Loans Fund, the Consolidated Fund and moneys provided by Parliament, and

  (b) into the National Loans Fund and the Consolidated Fund,

  as may result from provisions of that Act increasing to the new amount the limit imposed by the Industry Act 1975 ("the Industry Act"), the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 ("the Scottish Act") and the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 ("the Welsh Act") on the amount outstanding, otherwise than by way of interest, in respect of the relevant sums specified in those Acts respectively.

  (1) For the purposes of this resolution the new amount of any such limit is—

  (a) the case of the relevant sums specified in the Industry Act, £4,500 million;

  (b) in the case of the relevant sums specified in the Scottish Act, £800 million;

  (c) in the case of the relevant sums specified in the Welsh Act, £400 million.

  (2) For the purposes of the resolution the following are relevant sums in the case of any of those Acts, that is to say—

  (a) the general external borrowing (as defined in that Act) of the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish Development Agency or the Welsh Development Agency, as the case may be, and their respective subsidiaries;

  (b) sums issued by the Treasury in fulfilment of guarantees in respect of sums borrowed by the Board or either of those Agencies from a person other than the Secretary of State;

  292

  (c) in the case of the Industry Act, sums paid to the Board as public dividend capital (as defined in that Act);

  (d) in the case of the Scottish Act, sums paid to the Scottish Development Agency by the Secretary of State less repayments to the Secretary of State by the Agency (other than payments made by the Agency in consideration of receiving public dividend capital) and less sums paid in respect of the administrative expenses of the Agency

  (e) in the case of the Welsh Act, sums paid to the Welsh Development Agency by the Secretary of State less repayments to him by the Agency and less sums paid in respect of the administrative expenses of the Agency; and

  (f) in the case of each of those Acts, loans guaranteed by the Board or either of those Agencies otherwise than in the exercise of powers conferred on the Secretary of State under section 7 or 8 of the Industry Act 1972 as applied by that Act and loans guaranteed by a subsidiary of the Scottish Development Agency.—[Mrs. Ann Taylor.]

  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Taylor: I oppose the money resolution for several reasons. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) referred on Second Reading to firms that the NEB has supported, and will support as a result of the money resolution, as "unbankruptable companies". This is an apt description because most business men regard competition from Government-sponsored companies as unfair competition from firms which will be supported, regardless of cost, out of the taxes paid by successful companies and individuals.
  That process will be even more inevitable if the money resolution for this enormous amount of money is passed. Nothing is calculated to infuriate the successful business man more than the knowledge that the results of his efforts, which are confiscated by the Inland Revenue through penal taxation, are being used to prop up inefficient and unsuccessful enterprises that compete with his own company.
  The successful business man pays extortionate rates of tax and has had any incentive to work harder, which would create jobs, or to sell abroad, which would create jobs, or to improve efficiency at home, which would create jobs, drained away from him. [Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I see that a minor disturbance is going on. I hope that hon. Members will respect the right of the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Taylor) to address the House.
  Mr. Taylor: The Prime Minister is on record as stating that the nation wants a reduction in direct taxation, yet by the money resolution we are making available enormous sums to three agencies which have neither adequate parliamentary scrutiny nor track records which give us confidence to believe that the money will be spent wisely.
  There are many politicians and civil servants who believe that they can tell business men how to run their businesses and that they know better than the commercial banks and the City institutions how to invest money. Before we approve the money resolution, we should look at an example from each of the three agencies to see whether the judgments of those who are able to hand out large amounts of taxpayers' money are better than the judgments of the professionals who have rejected appeals from the same sources.
  My first example is from the work of the National Enterprise Board. I make no apology for raising again the case of the company Thwaites and Reed. I do so because the injection of money by the NEB into that concern affected two competing companies in my constituency.
  Since I last raised the matter, there has been a startling new development. The NEB acquired 90 per cent. of Thwaites and Reed for £420,000. We were told that this was one of the speedy decisions which the Board like to take and prided itself in making much quicker than could the banks and other institutions in the private sector. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont) said earlier, when Lord Ryder was questioned in the Public Accounts Committee about why he had made the investment, he said that it was a "breathtaking" opportunity. It was certainly an opportunity which should have taken away the breath of every hon. Member because the investment of £420,000 was sold only a year later for £78,000 to one of the competing companies in my constituency.
  294
  My next example is a company supported by the Welsh Development Agency. It is, presumably, the type of company that will continue to be supported if the money resolution is approved. The company concerned is Penrad, and, against specific advice from the Industrial Development Advisory Board, taxpayers' money was poured into the company from many and varied sources. It started with a grant of £300,000 in 1975 from the Department of Industry as a forerunner to the WDA. Eight months later, another £100,000 of taxpayers' money went into the concern. In May 1977 a receiver was appointed and a few months later a private company was induced to come to the rescue. The agency provided £600,000, interest-free for five years, to induce the company to do so.
  The Welsh Office chipped in another £190,000 by way of interest relief on a loan from the European Coal and Steel Commission. Well over £1 million went into the company, and when the matter was last ventilated in the Public Accounts Committee it was learned that about 38 jobs, with an eventual target of 90, were involved.
  It is no wonder that the permanent secretary at the Welsh Office, Sir Hywel Evans, told the Public Accounts Committee on 26 June 1978 regarding the provision of £600,000 to the company:
  "I had misgivings about the form of this investment."
  If Sir Harold had misgivings about the form of investments being made by the agency, how much more important it must be for the House to examine the money resolution with care.
  My final example comes from the work of the Scottish Development Agency. A total of £600,000 was recently invested in a firm called Scofisco, which I presume is short for the Scottish Fishery Company. It failed within a year of the money being put into it and the investment could not be justified on grounds of the number of jobs involved because there were very few jobs indeed.
  I appreciate that there must be some success stories to compensate for the failures, and certainly the advance factories in Scotland have contributed substantially to the number of jobs available there. But

  295
  I do not believe that the policy of investing money, procured by this resolution, in companies against the advice of those people whose life work it has been to assess such questions has anything to commend it. I do not think that that policy should be commended to the House, and that is my principal reason for objecting to the resolution.
  Lame ducks come about as a result of bad management, poor products or bad industrial relations, and none of these maladies can be cured by milking successful companies and having an open cheque book for those which are unsuccessful.
  I mentioned earlier that if we vote this money, Parliament has very little opportunity to scrutinise investments made by the NEB. Indeed, Sir Peter Carey, the permanent secretary at the Department of Industry, has bravely fought in the Public Accounts Committee against greater scrutiny by this House on the ground of need for confidentiality. I make no apology for quoting from the answer he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) on 8 May 1978. Sir Peter said:
  "I believe that these private sector companies, many of which are approaching the NEB rather than being approached by it, would take a different attitude if they believed that this new procedure was operating."
  He was referring to the procedure of greater scrutiny by this House, upon which we were trying to reach agreement. He went on:
  "I think that they would see themselves being placed in quite a different category from the normal run of private sector companies."
  I agree that they probably would feel that they were in a different category from the normal run of private sector companies, and so indeed they would be. It is my view that any company from the private sector which comes cap in hand to the National Enterprise Board for a dollop of this money that we are asked to approve tonight is in a very different position, and the management should have no misapprehensions on that score. Its accounts should be an open book for this House as soon as it gets the first penny of taxpayers' money.
  It can be argued that at the present time some information is available to the House where the NEB or the agencies have control of a company or, in other
  296
  words, have 51 per cent. of the equity. But such a requirement gives a shield to the NEB or to the agencies, and as a result there is an incentive for the NEB and the agencies to keep their holding of the voting equity below 50 per cent. This is particularly so in the case of the NEB. It keeps the voting equity below 50 per cent. but in many cases the taxpayer shoulders 100 per cent. of the preference debenture or loan stock, which carries no voting rights.
  In the 1977 accounts of the National Enterprise Board, 11 out of 16 of the associate companies fall into this category; in other words, the taxpayer has less than half of the voting stock but very nearly 100 per cent. of the non-voting stock. In my view, the taxpayer is taking an unfair risk in these cases. The taxpayer should not be involved at all. But if the taxpayer is involved, he should not be at such a disadvantage.
  Before we pass the resolution, it is my view that the guidelines of the NEB and of the agencies should be altered to prevent taxpayers' money being invested in any company in the non-voting stock at a higher ratio than its investment in the voting stock. This would satisfy me to a certain degree, and that is something which should be carefully considered. Perhaps, if the money resolution is passed, it might be considered in the Committee which looks at the Bill.
  Finally, each of the agencies—and particularly the NEB—excuses its speculative ventures into the private sector by claiming to be an entrepreneur. That word has been used on a number of occasions in the preceding debate. None claims louder to be an entrepreneur than Sir Leslie Murphy. I believe such a claim to be a misuse of the English language. We are not voting this money resolution tonight so that the money shall go to entrepreneurs. An entrepreneur is essentially a man who backs his own judgment with his own resources, be they financial or his own labour. They are the men upon whose shoulders depends the future industrial success of our nation. I can only hope that it will never depend on faceless men backing corporate judgments with a bottomless pit of taxpayers' money, such as we are voting in this resolution tonight.
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Watkinson: I shall not follow entirely the line of argument pursued by the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Taylor), except to say that I, too, am a member of the Public Accounts Committee, which considered the National Enterprise Board. The hon. Gentleman has, I acknowledge, been a consistent critic of the NEB, and so his remarks come as no great surprise to me.
  If the hon. Gentleman is seriously asking the House to oppose this money resolution, I presume that this means that he is asking the House not to continue the supply of funds to British Leyland and not to continue the supply of funds to Rolls-Royce and to other concerns. Perhaps he and his hon. Friends will wish to go to the Midlands to explain this decision. The hon. Gentleman knows, as I do, from our study and our investigation in the Public Accounts Committee, that the major proportion of funds available to the NEB is directed towards and involved with British Leyland and Rolls-Royce. I do not see any way at all in which anyone in this House at this stage could vote to cut off funds to those two organisations. But it is with the other sector of the NEB investment that I wish to concern myself.
  Mr. Peter Rost: Surely the hon. Gentleman is not assuming that a company such as Rolls-Royce is not perfectly capable of raising money in the market in the ordinary way, or in the way that nationalised industries do now. It is not necessarily dependent on the NEB for every penny of cash. It should be accountable in the market.
  Mr. Watkinson: I believe that the hon. Gentleman's party rescued Rolls-Royce as a lame duck, so I think that he should ask himself that question about recourse to the private market.
  I wish to come to the point made in the Public Accounts Committee by both Lord Ryder and Sir Leslie Murphy. It is a point to which even those Conservative Members who feel themselves doctrinally opposed to the operation of the NEB should give consideration. We on the Labour Benches have no doctrinal opposition to the intervention of the State in British industry.
  298
  Perhaps Conservative Members will consider what was said in evidence to that Committee by Lord Ryder and by Sir Leslie Murphy. It was that in their opinion there was and is a gap in the equity market. Both Lord Ryder and Sir Leslie underlined this point. The hon. Member for Croydon, North-West is shaking his head. They were asked point-blank about this in the Committee. They both readily agreed that there was this equity gap. From their experience they found that firms with a capitalisation of between £10 million and £15 million found it difficult to raise funds.
  These companies found that they could not go to the banking sector and found it difficult to raise money through rights issues. The evidence is that companies are coming to the NEB knowing that the NEB is setting a stiff test of between 15 and 20 per cent. That is the return which they are looking for and which they expect.
  Mr. Tim Renton: The hon. Gentleman would have realised if he had been present to any great extent in the debate that the rate of 15 per cent. is before tax and before interest. Bearing in mind that the Government have to borrow at an interest rate of 14 per cent., it is effectively a negative return as far as the NEB is concerned, because it does not cover interest costs.
  Mr. Watkinson: In answer to the hon. Gentleman I would like briefly to deal with the point raised by his hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern). This was dealt with in the Public Accounts Committee. It is not possible to hypothecate in the way that the hon. Gentleman was indicating. I accept that some adjustment must be made to the return that is being sought by the National Enterprise Board. Nevertheless, a substantial return is being looked for in this area.
  Mr. Peter Hordern: It is not only possible but it is essential to hypothecate in this instance. The NEB itself puts on a target rate of return. It has to take into account the cost of borrowing the money. One cannot take taxpayers' money, allow no cost of interest, and then talk of a supposed rate of return of 14 to 15 per cent. It simply cannot be done.
  Mr. Watkinson: If one follows the hon. Gentleman's argument, all areas of Government expenditure must be considered in that way. That is the evidence given before the Committee by the Treasury witness.
  The National Enterprise Board should be subject to the scrutiny of this House. It has been claimed that there is adequate scrutiny through the Secretary of State, to whom the National Enterprise Board is answerable. The only proper way in which the National Enterprise Board can be held accountable is through investigation by a Select Committee such as the Public Accounts Committee; and the Comptroller and Auditor General should have access to its books.
  The Minister has instituted an inquiry into the general operation of the audit Acts and the position of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I welcome this. My first concern is to see the NEB survive. It has presented cogent argument before the Committee that, if the Committee has the power to investigate, this will undermine the operation of the NEB. I do not want to see that. I want to see the NEB survive.
  If we can ask questions on defence contracts or go into private session, it is possible for us to investigate the National Enterprise Board and to have these matters before us. In a day and age in which in America, for instance, the CIA can be investigated, it is not beyond the wit of man that this Parliament or one of its Select Committees should be able to investigate the NEB.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Nick Budgen: I shall deal with only one point. In the course of our deliberations over two days it was frequently said that it was not envisaged that there would be any additional burden upon public expenditure as a result of passing this money resolution and the Industry Bill. It was said that the limits were to be raised so that the limits of the three agencies concerned could rise to £5·7 billion. Yet it was also very firmly said that there would be no additional public expenditure.
  I am prepared to concede that there will probably be no additional public expenditure in this financial year. I have no doubt that the Government are anxiously looking round for areas of public
  300
  expenditure that can be cut back and if possible, cut back without the Left wing of the Labour Party seeing what is being done. I dare say that when vigorous Labour politicians are visiting the regions of the United Kingdom they believe that it is sufficient to point to the amount of industrial intervention that has taken place, to point to the raised limits that might unhappily be passed tonight and say "After the election you will get the factory you want and the support that you want." There may not be any increased public expenditure before the general election.
  In this money resolution we are dealing with what might happen in the unhappy event of the Labour Party winning the next general election. In table 2(4) on page 49 of the Government's public expenditure White Paper which we had recently, the projections were that for the next four years the expenditure on the NEB would remain constant in present money terms—indeed, that it would slightly decline by 1982–83. Those projections are nonsense. The essence of the NEB's operation is that it is propping up a large number of different firms. God knows what the requirement for money will be for British Leyland if the Labour Government win the next general election. God knows how much Sir Kenneth Keith will want in his begging bowl in three years' time if the Labour Government win the next general election.
  When Ministers say that there will be no additional public expenditure because of these proposals, they are making an assertion which they cannot possibly make in good faith. There is no way of saying that. It is certain that if they win the next general election they will use this money to try to bribe the electorate in order to win the following election.
  7.58 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. Les Huckfield): The hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. Taylor) made specific reference to Penrad. He seemed to be admitting that that company was in receivership before the Welsh Development Agency became involved. He may have some detailed criticism of the Welsh Development Agency for that involvement. He should take cognisance of the fact that the WDA got involved after receivership. If he has any detailed criticism to make, I hope that he will pass

  301
  that on to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, who will be glad to study it in detail.
  We had a very full debate on the NEB guidelines, which have been approved by the whole House. If the hon. Gentleman had doubts about the guidelines of the NEB, he should have been here for that debate. If he was, I apologise to him, but I do not recall seeing him.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Watkinson) is right in saying that without the NEB there would be considerably higher unemployment in many regions of this country, particularly in the West Midlands. There are currently in the West Midlands some 100,000 workers who owe the existence of their jobs to the NEB. Almost 20 per cent. of the working population of Coventry is employed by companies which are subsidiaries of the NEB. If the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West wants to vote against such issues, I shall make sure that my constituents know about it and I know that my hon. Friends will make sure that their constituents know about it as well.
  The views of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) on British Leyland and companies that we have rescued in the West

  Division No. 48]

  AYES

  [8.01 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Canavan, Dennis

  Dunn, James A.

  Allaun, Frank

  Cant, R. B.

  Dunnett, Jack

  Anderson, Donald

  Carmichael, Neil

  Eadie, Alex

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Carter, Ray

  Edge, Geoff

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Ashton, Joe

  Cartwright, John

  English, Michael

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham)

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Evans, Gwyntor (Carmarthen)

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

  Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

  Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

  Concannon, Rt Hon John

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Bates, Alf

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Bean, R. E.

  Corbett, Robin

  Faulds, Andrew

  Bonn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  Cowans, Harry

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

  Flannery, Martin

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Craigen, Jim (Maryhill)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Ford, Ben

  Boardman, H.

  Cryer, Bob

  Forrester, John

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Davidson, Arthur

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

  Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

  Garrett, John (Norwich S)

  Bradley, Tom

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  George, Bruce

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Deakins, Eric

  Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Ginsburg, David

  Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

  de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Gould, Bryan

  Buchan, Norman

  Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

  Gourlay, Harry

  Buchanan, Richard

  Dempsey, James

  Graham, Ted

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Dewar, Donald

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

  Doig, Peter

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Grocott, Bruce

  Campbell, Ian

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Midlands are well known. He has said time and time again, and when it comes to an election he will be on the record as saying, that these companies should have gone bankrupt or into receivership. His constituents will get that message passed home to them very forcefully at the time of the next election.
  However, the hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten to take into account that in the passage of time something like one-half of the increase of £3,500 million which is being talked about in this money resolution will come from private sources of finance. It is not good enough to stand up in the House and make generalised criticisms of the public expenditure White Paper without understanding the meaning of those criticisms. Certainly, to judge from the hon. Gentleman's comments tonight, he does not understand what they mean.
  Having said that, I hope that the House will agree to the money resolution. It is essential, before we can bring about any changes in the NEB, that the money resolution goes through. Shortly, the NEB will be hard up against its borrowing limit, and a large number of jobs are at stake.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 275, Noes 255.

  Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Sever, John

  Hardy, Peter

  McNamara, Kevin

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Madden, Max

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Magee, Bryan

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Mahon, Simon

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Silverman, Julius

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Skinner, Dennis

  Home Robertson, John

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire)

  Horam, John

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Snape, Peter

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Spearing, Nigel

  Huckfield, Les

  Meacher, Michael

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Stallard, A. W.

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Stoddart, David

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Stott, Roger

  Hunter, Adam

  Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Molloy, William

  Swain, Thomas

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

  Moonman, Eric

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Janner, Greville

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

  Morton, George

  Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Thompson, George

  John, Brynmor

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Newens, Stanley

  Tierney, Sydney

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Noble, Mike

  Tilley, John

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Tomlinson, John

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Ogden, Eric

  Tuck, Raphael

  Judd, Frank

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Urwin, T. W.

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Orbach, Maurice

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Kelley, Richard

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Kerr, Russell

  Ovenden, John

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Padley, Walter

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Palmer, Arthur

  Ward, Michael

  Lambie, David

  Park, George

  Watkins, David

  Lamborn, Harry

  Parker, John

  Watkinson, John

  Lamond, James

  Parry, Robert

  Watt, Hamish

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Pendry, Tom

  Weetch, Ken

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Perry, Ernest

  Weitzman, David

  Lee, John

  Phipps, Dr Colin

  Wellbeloved, James

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Welsh, Andrew

  Lever, Rt Hon Harold

  Price, William (Rugby)

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Radice, Giles

  White, James (Pollok)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Litterick, Tom

  Reid, George

  Whitlock, William

  Lofthouse, Geoffrey

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Loyden, Eddie

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

  Luard, Evan

  Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Robertson, George (Hamilton)

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  MacCormick, Iain

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Rooker, J. W.

  Woodall, Alec

  McElhone, Frank

  Roper, John

  Woof, Robert

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Rowlands, Ted

  McKay, Allen (Penistone)

  Ryman, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Mr. Donald Coleman and

  Maclennan, Robert

  Selby, Harry

  Mr. James Tinn

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

  Cockcroft, John

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

  Alison, Michael

  Brittan, Leon

  Cope, John

  Amery, Rt Hon Julian

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Cormack, Patrick

  Arnold, Tom

  Brooke, Hon Peter

  Corrie, John

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

  Brotherton, Michael

  Costain, A. P.

  Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Critchley, Julian

  Baker, Kenneth

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Crouch, David

  Banks, Robert

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Crowder, F. P.

  Beith, A. J.

  Buck, Antony

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  Bell, Ronald

  Budgen, Nick

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Bendall, Vivian

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

  Burden, F. A.

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Benyon, W.

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Carlisle, Mark

  Durant, Tony

  Biffen, John

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Dykes, Hugh

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Channon, Paul

  Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

  Blaker, Peter

  Churchill, W. S.

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Body, Richard

  Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Elliott, Sir William

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Clark, William (Croydon S)

  Emery, peter

  Bottomley, Peter

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

  Clegg, Walter

  Fairgrieve, Russell

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  305

  Farr, John

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rathbone, Tim

  Fell, Anthony

  Kitson, Sir Timothy

  Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Fisher, Sir Nigel

  Knox, David

  Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

  Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

  Lamont, Norman

  Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Rhodes James, R.

  Forman, Nigel

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Ridley, Hon Nicholas

  Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Fox, Marcus

  Lawson, Nigel

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Fry, Peter

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

  Lloyd, Ian

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Loveridge, John

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

  Luce, Richard

  Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Royle, Sir Anthony

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  McCrindle, Robert

  Sainsbury, Tim

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Macfarlane, Neil

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

  MacGregor, John

  Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

  Goodhart, Philip

  MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

  Shepherd, Colin

  Goodlad, Alastair

  McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

  Shersby, Michael

  Gorst, John

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Silvester, Fred

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Madel, David

  Sims, Roger

  Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

  Marten, Neil

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Gray, Hamish

  Mates, Michael

  Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

  Grieve, Percy

  Mather, Carol

  Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

  Griffiths, Eldon

  Mawby, Ray

  Spence, John

  Grist, Ian

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

  Grylls, Michael

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Sproat, Iain

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Stainton, Keith

  Hamilton, Archibald (Epsom & Ewell)

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Mills, Peter

  Stanley, John

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Hannam, John

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Stokes, John

  Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Moate, Roger

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

  Molyneaux, James

  Tapsell, Peter

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Monro, Hector

  Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Moore, John (Croydon C)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Hawkins, Paul

  Morgan, Geraint

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Heseltine, Michael

  Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)

  Townsend, Cyril D.

  Hicks, Robert

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Trotter, Neville

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Mudd, David

  Van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Hodgson, Robin

  Neave, Airey

  Vaughan, Dr Gerard

  Holland, Philip

  Nelson, Anthony

  Viggers, Peter

  Hordern, Peter

  Neubert, Michael

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Newton, Tony

  Wakeham, John

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Walker, RI Hon P. (Worcester)

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

  Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Osborn, John

  Wall, Patrick

  Hurd, Douglas

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

  Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  James, David

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Wells, John

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Jessel, Toby

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Penhaligon, David

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Percival, Ian

  Wood, Rt Hon Richard

  Jopling, Michael

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

  Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Mr. Spencer LeMerchant and

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Raison, Timothy

  Mr. Michael Roberts.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to the limits on sums borrowed by, or paid by Ministers of the Crown to the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish Development Agency and the Welsh Development Agency and subsidiaries of theirs, on sums paid by the Treasury in pursuance of guarantees of loans to the Board or either of those Agencies and on loans guaranteed by the Board or either of those Agencies or subsidiaries of the Scottish Development Agency, it is expedient to authorise all such increased payments—
  306

  (a) out of the National Loans Fund, the Consolidated Fund and moneys provided by Parliament, and

  (b) into the National Loans Fund and the Consolidated Fund,

  as may result from provisions of that Act increasing to the new amount the limit imposed by the Industry Act 1975 ('the Industry Act') the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 ('the Scottish Act') and the Welsh Development Agency Act 1975 ('the Welsh Act') on the amount outstanding, otherwise than by way of interest, in respect of the relevant sums specified in those Acts respectively.

  307

  (1) for the purposes of this resolution the new amount of any such limit is—

  (a) in the case of the relevant sums specified in the Industry Act, £4,500 million;

  (b) in the case of the relevant sums specified in the Scottish Act, £800 million;

  (c) in the case of the relevant sums specified in the Welsh Act, £400 million.

  (2) For the purpose of this resolution the following are relevant sums in the case of any of those Actd, that is to say—

  (a) the general external borrowing (as defined in that Act) of the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish Development Agency or the Welsh Development Agency, as the case may be, and their respective subsidiaries;

  (b) sums issued by the Treasury in fulfilment of guarantees in respect of sums borrowed by the Board or either of those Agencies from a person other than the Secretary of State;

  (c) in the case of the Industry Act, sums paid to the Board as public dividend capital (as defined in that Act);

  (d) in the case of the Scottish Act, sums paid to the Scottish Development Agency by the Secretary of State less repayments to the Secretary of State by the Agency (other than payments made by the Agency in consideration of receiving public dividend capital) and less sums paid in respect of the administrative expenses of the Agency;

  (e) in the case of the Welsh Act, sums paid to the Welsh Development Agency by the Secretary of State less repayments to him by the Agency and less sums paid in respect of the administrative expenses of the Agency; and

  (f) in the case of each of those Acts, loans guaranteed by the Board or either of those Agencies otherwise than in the exercise of powers conferred on the Secretary of State under section 7 or 8 of the Industry Act 1972 as applied by that Act and loans guaranteed by a subsidiary of the Scottish Development Agency.

  SOCIAL SECURITY BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  SOCIAL SECURITY BILL
    New Clause 1

      SPECIAL CHILD ALLOWANCE
      'In Chapter II of Part II of the principal Act (non-contributory benefits) the following is inserted after section 37A
      "37B—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a child aged over 2 but under 5 years shall be entitled to a special child allowance payable from the National Insurance Fund for any period throughout which he is suffering from physical disablement such that he is either unable to walk or virtually unable to do so.
      (2) The circumstances in which a child is or is not to be treated for the purposes of this section as suffering from such physical disablement as is mentioned above shall be the circumstances prescribed by regulations for mobility allowance under Section 37A of this Act; but a person qualifies for the allowance only if—

      (a) his inability or virtual inability to walk is likely to persist for at least 12 months from the time when a claim for the allowance is received by the Secretary of State; and

      (b) during most of that time his condition will be such as permits him from time to time to benefit from enhanced facilities for locomotion.

      (3) The weekly rate of a special child allowance shall be that specified in Schedule 4 to this Act, Part III, paragraph 3A for mobility allowance.
      (4) No child shall be entitled to a special child allowance except in prescribed cases, for any week before that in which a claim for the allowance by or in respect of him is received by the Secretary of State.
      (5) Except so far as may be provided by regulations, the question of the child's entitlement to a special child allowance shall be determined as at the date when a claim for the allowance is received by the Secretary of State.
      (6) A payment to or in respect of any child by way of a special child allowance, and the right to receive such a payment, shall (except in prescribed circumstances and for prescribed purposes) be disregarded in applying any enactment or instrument under which regard is to be had to a person's means.
      (7) Any regulations made by the Secretary of State under Section 37A of this Act shall apply to a special child allowance as they apply to a mobility allowance provided that no regulation restricting mobility allowance to persons over the age of 5 years shall apply to the special child allowance".'[Mr. Carter-Jones.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      8.14 p.m.
      Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones: I beg to move That the clause be read a Second time.
      I am very pleased to be the first Member to speak in this House to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary—the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris), who will take part in the debate—on the well-deserved honour that he has received. It is rather appropriate that I should be the first to congratulate him, as I am a very close friend of his.
      The new clause is primarily concerned with the age group 2 to 5 and mobility. I had a choice. I could have moved a variety of new clauses. For example, there are certain classes of the elderly who need mobility allowance but who will not receive it. I could have talked about the mentally handicapped who will not receive the allowance. I could have spoken about agoraphobics, who will not get mobility allowance. I could have spoken about the blind, who will not receive the allowance. This worries me intensely.
      However, I have chosen to base the new clause on the question of mobility allowance for children aged from 2 to 5. In reality, we face a great problem. The Government have made substantial sums of money available. I hope that the Opposition will agree with me when I say that vast sums of money have been made available for mobility.
      Those of us who belong to the all-party group will say "Yes, we agree with this". The difficulty was how to spread the load, how to spread the jam. It seems to me that we have made a tremendous step forward on mobility and that we have had to ask ourselves whether we should do it in depth or spread the money thinly. What we seem to have done is to choose a certain group of people who will be aided and to leave out others, such as the older age group, certain classifications of the mentally handicapped and the agoraphobics.
      I do not know quite how it can be done, but my new clause at least gives us the opportunity to have a debate on the subject. The purpose of the new clause is to debate the way in which we might spend the money and resources that are available.
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      I have tried to pick out one group which appears to be the most important.
      I have no intention of pressing the new clause to a vote tonight, but I want the Government and the Opposition to state where their priorities lie. A substantial amount of money has been made available. If someone were to push me hard tonight, I would vote against my own Government.
      I believe that we can find the money from the national insurance fund. It is a device that the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam) and I have used frequently. When we have been unable to get round the money resolution, we have gone back to the national insurance fund, which is one way of getting the money.
      The new clause involves greater public expenditure. What I want from the Government tonight is a statement of intent, a statement of priorities. It is very difficult for me to talk about the cost factor, because the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker)—I am tempted to say "my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey"—tabled a question in October 1976 to find out what would be the cost of providing a mobility allowance for those between the ages of 2 and 5 years. At that time the figure was £2 million. It could be argued that that figure has been overtaken by inflation. We could argue a whole host of factors, but I believe that that figure of £2 million still applies, for two basic reasons. First, the number of people involved has been reduced because of the fall in the birth rate. Secondly, demand has decreased because people are not taking up this benefit. Therefore, I think that the figure we are talking about is still £2 million.
      There are three basic reasons why I move this new clause. I cannot say that I speak as an ex-father, because I am still a father. I cannot say that I speak as an ex-grandfather, because I am still a grandfather. But I know, casting my mind back and even referring to the present, that one can somehow, male or female, cope with a baby up to the age of 2. At least one can carry a child of that age—although that gets more difficult as one gets older.
      When they reach the age of 5, children go to school. There is then a period when they are off one's hands—speaking as a mother, a father, a grandfather or a

      311
      grandmother. But between the ages of 2 and 5, children are a grave burden if they are severely handicapped. I took my grandchildren shopping just before Christmas. They are very able-bodied. Perhaps they are a little too lively. They gave me a run around. But I would hate to have handled my grandchildren in Woolworth's, Marks and Spencer or Littlewoods had they been disabled.
      The first point that I make is that the 2 to 5-year-old severely disabled child who is not mobile presents a major problem for the mother, because of a lack of educational opportunity.
      The second point about the 2 to 5-year-old group is that before the age of 2 one can take a child to hospital with a reasonable amount of ease—ease in relative terms, because if one has a disabled baby, one has a problem. If children between the ages of 2 and 5 need medical treatment, one is faced with a very severe mobility problem.
      I make my third point rather reluctantly, but it is a truth of life. Normally, when a child is aged 5 and goes to school, there is an opportunity for the mother to go out to work to augment the family income.
      It is for those three reasons that I want a statement tonight from my right hon. Friend about the way in which he views the problem of the 2 to 5-year-old child and mobility. First, this is the age at which there is no real educational opportunity. Secondly, this is the sort of child that has to be taken to hospital frequently on the basis that there is a chance of rehabilitation. Thirdly, at this time the mother is denied the opportunity of earning money to augment the family income.
      I raise this matter in order to allow the House to have a debate and to find out where in the problem of priorities the Government place these people.
      Mrs. Lynda Chalker: The whole Opposition join the hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) in congratulating the Under-Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris). It is true to say that there cannot be anyone in this country who is not delighted at his elevation and tremendously grateful for the efforts that he has made—sometimes against some odds.
      312
      The new clause has been moved by someone whom I regard very often as my hon. Friend—the hon. Member for Eccles. It concerns children between the ages of 2 and 5 who are disabled. We well understand the hon. Member having taken up the device—what I now call the myth—of the national insurance fund, and it has been used by the Opposition on some occasions to get the matter debated. It is right that we should discuss this issue in the House on these occasions, because we get few enough opportunities to do so.
      Of course, I understand that there is a very good case for the measure. There can be no question at all about that. The House will recall that several years ago, when we debated the money resolution on the mobility allowance, I raised the issue. At that time I too, was testing the strength of the proposal. We were all well aware of the tremendous burden that a disabled youngster places on a mother, in particular at a time when one expects an able-bodied youngster to be getting around on its own little feet and being able to amuse itself. One great problem is to keep a physically disabled toddler occupied during the hours of the day.
      There is no difference between the hon. Member for Eccles and Conservative Members. We all know that this is a real problem. I have seen this over many years, ever since I became involved with young disabled children in hospital, and we are gradually moving towards a solution to the problem.
      The first thing that we should look at is the availability, where it is totally needed, of the attendance allowance for children of this age. All children need attendance, but is it the sheer attendance about which we are talking rather than the mobility? I believe that there is a problem here.
      Another problem is that this matter has not been discussed for some time in the House. We shall, therefore, welcome the answers which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will give in responding to the debate.
      I must disagree with the hon. Member for Eccles that there are no educational opportunities for disabled toddlers. In many of the more recent cases that I have come across there are such opportunities, and I pay tribute to the Toy

      313
      Libraries Association, which has begun to do so much for families with disabled youngsters. I hope that it will continue to do that very good work. However, the hon. Member for Eccles is right in saying that that does not remove the burden from the mother, because it still means that the mother has to get her child to the toy library in the first place. I thoroughly accept that.
      Mr. Carter-Jones: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I hope that tomorrow morning Hansard will show that I entered a caveat—that a development is taking place which assists the mother, and that toy libraries, and so on, are helpful. I was suggesting that it will be some time before facilities are totally available for this group.
      Mrs. Chalker: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that none of these helpful facilities grows as fast as we would like. I believe that over the past few years there has been a change and a new awareness in the importance which society now, thankfully, places on the development of children who although physically disabled are mentally alert and have a great deal to give. Therefore, we should examine this problem from both the social and the educational point of view.
      I should be glad to hear from the Minister whether he has discussed the needs of the under-fives disabled children with his opposite number at the Department of Education and Science. In the last two years there have been a number of new pamphlets and debates about the needs of the under-fives. I believe that the specific needs of the under-fives, who can sometimes be accommodated in special schools for a short period of the day, are matters which the two Departments together would do well to explore.
      In saying that, I am conscious that the last published figure of cost for this group was small. I am led to believe that the Amelia Harris figures, on which the estimate of cost of £2 million in 1976 is based, are now considered to be out of date. I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman could provide us with the up-to-date costs that his Department must, surely, have worked out for extending the mobility allowance to this group of little people.
      314
      We also need to know what range of facilities are already available. This is not to say that we do not place great importance on helping the mothers of these children, but there are always so many calls on the public purse, especially with regard to this Department, that we must make a decision whether this gets the top priority of the money available.
      8.30 p.m.
      Every week another worthwhile cause requests money. It may be for £1 million or for £500,000; it may be for much more. For my part, I believe that this is a group that is well up the list. But, in the stringent situation in which we presently find ourselves I do not believe that it can be a group to which we can devote funds. That is not to say that I do not want to see it happen, because I sincerely do. It is a step for the future, one which I hope we can continue to research perhaps a little more avidly than we have done in the last couple of years to see whether we can extend this allowance to the parents of toddlers when the time is right. Perhaps we might even be able to extend a percentage of the allowance, because it might be argued that toddlers do not need the full extent of the mobility allowance, as does an adult disabled person, in order to get around.
      In saying that, I do not want any hon. Member, least of all the hon. Member for Eccles, to feel that we shall not give this due consideration. As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, as well as agoraphobics, blind people feel that they have had nothing out of the health and social services kitty for a long while, and they also have put immense pressure on the right hon. Gentleman.
      In Committee we debated whether we should remove the upper limit for the receipt of mobility allowance. I know that every Government Minister receives daily requests for additional expenditure, just as we, either as constituency Members or as an Opposition, are asked to support many good causes. Therefore, I ask the Minister for more information. I should also like to know what can be done in conjunction with the other Departments concerned.
      One of the problems which confronts me more and more as a constituency

      315
      Member is that many families with disabled children are more hampered by the lack of facilities for those children within their own homes than they are by the lack of outside mobility. We know that this should not be so, because there is the Joseph Rowntree family fund. That is worth mentioning tonight, because that might help some of those who look to this debate to solve their additional expense problems in respect of disabled children.
      For all the reasons that I have outlined, and in view of the many cases of genuine need to which we cannot yet give the funds that we would like, I believe that for the time being other cases will have a higher priority than the one outlined by the hon. Member for Eccles. The abiding duty, whether of this Government or the next one, is to get the economy in such a state that we can talk about additional funds for the disabled, and additional funds for this group. My one ambition may be to spend money, but in order to spend money the country must first earn it. That must be the top priority, because then 2 to 5-year-olds will be able to have their mobility allowance.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Alfred Morris): I am grateful both to my hon. Friend and to the hon. Lady for their kind references to my appointment to the Privy Council. As my hon. Friend has made clear, his purpose in moving the new clause was to probe the Government's view about extending the mobility allowance to children between the ages of 2 and 5.
      I have noted the hon. Lady's request for an updating of the figures based on the Amelia Harris survey. However, meanwhile the cost is still estimated at around £2 million a year, and we expect about 4,000 disabled children to benefit. This was of course one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on civil liability and compensation for personal injury—the Pearson Commission—and the Government are giving very detailed consideration to those recommendations. The suggestion has also been made on a number of occasions and has been sympathetically examined, as are all suggestions for extending the scope of benefits to disabled people.
      Against a background of scarce resources, one is always faced with a difficult,
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      indeed agonising, decision about competing priorities, and, without wishing to minimise the problems of families with handicapped children under 5, we have so far felt bound to give higher priority to the elderly, many of whom are left to cope with their difficulties as best they can. That is why clause 3 extends the age limits for the elderly at a cost over four years of £20 million a year. For the future the Government are still considering the Pearson report.
      The House will recall that the Commission also recommended a general benefit for all severely handicapped children. Over and above this, more and more people are pressing for a new general disablement benefit for all severely disabled people, adults and children alike. There are difficulties in designing benefits for particular and very deserving groups rather than adopting a comprehensive approach to all severely disabled people. These problems concern not only costs but such other difficulties as taxability, how disablement is assessed, and the relationship with other benefits. We are studying all the possibilities and options very carefully.
      It may be helpful to remind the House that in the three years since it was first introduced we have doubled the rate of mobility allowance from £5 to £10 a week. It was increased to £7 a week in November 1977 and to £10 a week in July 1978. Moreover, we have undertaken to review the rate of the allowance regularly every year. With the improvements that we have put forward in the Bill, expenditure on mobility allowance will reach £65 million in the financial year 1979–80 and £72 million in 1980–81. These are the latest figures available. By 1980–81 we shall have raised overall expenditure on mobility for the disabled to some £90 million a year.
      Many people will say that this is not enough, but it is certainly a considerable advance on the £13 million a year that was being spent when we took office in 1974. I know that the House will be glad to learn tonight that we are now paying the mobility allowance to over 100,000 people. The latest figures available to me show that 103,500 people are now in receipt of this important new allowance. As my hon. Friend is aware, there are strong pressures on the Government to extend the mobility allowance to

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      many other categories of disabled people. They include the blind, the deaf blind, people suffering from epilepsy, the mentally handicapped and agoraphobics, all of whom have mobility problems even though physically they may be able to walk.
      This is one reason why I have so often said that in this long-neglected field I face infinite claims with only finite resources. There is no one in this House who appreciates the truth of that more than my hon. Friend and, indeed, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker), who referred to Jonathan Bradshaw's work at York. We are looking at this paper carefully and especially the medical and statistical data. However, I must emphasise that the Government see the issue not so much as one of the individual merits of a particular case where children aged 2 to 5 should have the allowance but rather as one of priorities where we seek to establish whether children should take precedence over many other competing claims for an extension of the allowance. This is a most difficult decision for the Government and one that we shall continue to consider very carefully.
      I can assure my hon. Friend and the hon. Lady that we shall continue to do everything in our power further to promote the well-being of disabled people as a whole, and that in doing so we shall continually have in mind such claims for assistance as the one that has been made tonight.
      I hope that in the light of my reply my hon. Friend will not press his new clause.
      Mr. Carter-Jones: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 2

      POWER TO ABOLISH EARNINGS RULES
      "(1) The Secretary of State may by order determine that the deductions from pensions prescribed by sections 30(1), 45(3) and 66(4) of the principal Act, as amended, shall cease to apply from such date as the order may lay down.
      (2) No order shall be made under this section unless a draft of it has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.".—[Mr. Patrick Jenkin.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: As one who did not take part in the Committee proceedings, I find that I have a little hesitation in moving, That the clause be read a Second time. I hope that if I trespass on to matters that were well and truly thrashed out in Committee I shall be forgiven.
      A new clause was moved in Committee right at the end—one might almost say that it was moved in extra time, because it was after one o'clock on the last day—by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young). The new clause before the House is in identical terms. Because of the time available, there was only a brief debate in Committee. There was a tied vote, and as a result we return to the matter tonight. Since the Committee stage the Under-Secretary of State has written a letter to my hon. Friend, and some of us have been able to see copies.
      The purpose of the new clause is, first, to allow a debate on the earnings rule and to consider the Government's recent report, published in October, in which they analyse the effect of the earnings rule. The second purpose is to give the Government power, if the House so decides, to phase out the earnings rule by order, so that when the moment comes to do that, as surely it must in the next year or two, they do not need to go through the whole process of legislation.
      It is no secret that the earnings rule has been increasingly criticised in recent years, mainly on two grounds. It is increasingly felt to be unfair. Pensioners say that they have paid their contributions and should be entitled to their pensions as of right. We in the House know, and many of us must have sought on many occasions to argue with our constituents, that the earnings rule exists to, reinforce, so it is said, the retirement rule, and that the contributions are paid to secure the benefit of a pension subject to the retirement rule and the earnings rule. But, equally, I think that all hon. Members know that it has proved almost impossible to convince people of the correctness of that argument.
      In addition to the argument of fairness, there is the social argument. The earnings rule is increasingly regarded as undesirable socially. It is undesirable to put barriers in the way of the younger retired working longer or earning more. As life

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      expectancies steadly increase, people can look forward to 20 or even 25 and sometimes 30 years of retirement after the normal retirement age. Many would like to feel free to go on earning after that normal retirement age without feeling that they are fettered in any way by financial disincentives.
      One of the interesting findings of the OPCS survey, which is referred to in the Government's report, is that the psychological effect of the earnings rule may be as important as the financial disincentive. Far more people feel that they are being hindered by the earnings rule than its actual impact on their personal finances would justify.
      The fact is that all parties in the House are now committed to end the rule when resources allow. Therefore, the central question is what the cost of doing that will be. I shall not tonight argue for more cost, for reasons that we all understand. But when one considers the cost one sees that some important facts need to be considered.
      The rule now bites at a substantially higher level of income than it used to. That is due, as the House knows, to pressure from both sides over recent years—pressure, let it be said, that was resisted all the way each time by the Government. It had to be voted through time after time and the record shows that very clearly. The earnings limits have been raised substantially in the last five years, from £13 a week in July 1974, equal to about 28 per cent. of average earnings, to £45 a week, as from last November, which is probably, although we do not know the figure yet, around 50 per cent. of average earnings. But the rule is still there, and the earnings limit is still there, and the arguments for abolition are no less strong.
      8.45 p.m.
      In our debates we have had a variety of estimates for the cost of abolishing the rule, and a little over a year ago the Government were saying quite firmly that the cost was well in excess of £100 million—perhaps £140 million or £150 million. On this side of the House, ever since my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and Mr. Christopher Mockler published the CPC pamphlet "An End to the Earnings Rule?", we have argued that the Government have always grossly over-estimated the cost of
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      abolishing the rule. What has happened is that by stages we have been proved right and the Government have had to concede that they were over-estimating and were wrong.
      The House will remember that in 1977 the Government made some major concessions on costs. They published a paper headed "Note on estimated savings", in which they conceded that previous assumptions were wrong and that the figures had been wrongly interpreted. In that year we forced through the House, and the Government finally accepted, when it came back from another place, a clause to oblige them to review the operation of the rule properly and to report back to the House, and this they have now done. The reason why we did that is perfectly clear. It was admirably stated by the Government spokesman in another place, the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, when he said:
      "I imagine that the expectation in putting down the new clause is to assess the cost of bringing the earnings rule to an end. If the Secretary of State undertook this kind of investigation, the hope would be that he would find that less public expenditure was required than he had so far supposed and, consequently, would be more willing to announce a timetable for the ending of the rule." [Official Report, House of Lords, 14 March 1977; Vol. 380, c. 1291.]
      Exactly so, and of course that is exactly what has happened, because this is what the report has done, as I shall show in a moment.
      I may say that when the Bill came back to the Commons on that occasion it did not prevent the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State from saying:
      "It remains the Government's view that such a review is not necessary on its merits."—[Official Report, 24 March 1977; Vol. 928, c. 1501.]
      I hope that we shall have a clear statement from the Government this evening that they are glad that they had to undertake this review, because it has disclosed a lot of new and interesting figures. The merits of the report will be clear as I go on.
      The study, although it leaves out two important factors which we have always argued should be taken into account, shows once again that even the revised estimates of the cost given to the House in 1977 were based on wrong figures, that the assumptions on which cost estimates were based were themselves wrong, and

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      that important factors which the Government had previously discounted are relevant and should be brought into the balance.
      I should like to demonstrate to the House that, on the basis of the figures in this report, and taking account of the two factors which the report does not mention and which we argue should be counted, the earnings rule for pensioners might well be abolished now at no cost to public funds. But I stress the word "might" because I concede that there are still some uncertainties and there may well, therefore, be some cost.
      The biggest single factor has always been how many of the 137,000 people who are currently deferring retirement, postponing claiming their pensions and earnings increments would, if the earnings rule were abolished, take an immediate pension and forgo the increment. The Government have always argued that they would. They have said that it would be 100 per cent. No doubt the Minister will remember the statement made in paragraph 18 of the estimate paper of 1978. That stated:
      "In all estimates of the extra cost to the national insurance fund if there were no earnings rule or retirement condition, it has been assumed that 100 per cent. of those aged 65 (men) or 60 (women) with entitlement to retirement pension would receive it".
      The report shows—it is an important finding based on a retirement survey carried out by the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys—that the paragraph in the estimate paper was wrong. About 40 per cent. would continue to defer taking their pension.
      That is stated not as succinctly but perfectly clearly in paragraph 4.8 in the report on the earnings rule, which states:
      "the results of the Retirement Survey suggest that about two-fifths of those who, under the existing provisions, cannot be treated as retired, would choose to earn increments rather than receive an immediate pension in the event of the earnings rule and retirement condition being abolished."
      That is an interesting finding. It radically affects the cost of abolishing the rule.
      As long ago as 1976 my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe and Mr. Mockler estimated in their paper a very similar percentage of the then rather larger number of deferrers. It may be
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      said that the OPCS survey wholly vindicates my hon. Friend's judgment. The effect is to reduce the gross cost to the national insurance fund from the Government's starting figure of £199 million, assuming 100 per cent. would take the pension, by about £80 million to £119 in the first stage.
      There has been argument about the figures, but the Government have always conceded that if we had people earning and taking the pension a good deal more tax would be paid. It is accepted that that, too, has to be brought into the account. That is put at £43 million—I accept that figure—and that reduces the cost of abolition from £119 million to £76 million.
      We now have to break new ground. Hitherto the Government have refused to accept the argument that the effect of the earnings rule is to limit what pensioners earn. We have always argued that if we have a marginal tax rate of, in effect, 100 per cent., that is bound to have a bearing on people's willingness to earn above that limit. For the most part, people will not go on working if they lose £1 for every £1 they earn. It was contrary to common sense to argue, as the Government did in the past, that no account should be taken of that factor. The OPCS survey, as appears from the Government report, shows that we were right. The language is somewhat convoluted but the purpose is clear.
      In paragraphs 4.10 and 4.11 it is stated that it is right to assume extra earnings and right to assume that some people will work longer hours, and that therefore there will be extra revenue to the Exchequer. That is put at £28 million. That reduces the cost from £76 million to £48 million. At this stage we begin to wonder why the Under-Secretary of State was so reluctant to concede such a report. Why did he say that it had no merit? Clearly it has merit. It is bringing us nearer the day when we shall be able to abolish the earnings rule.
      I do not stop there, because there are three further matters that have to be taken into account. First, the Government persist—as far as I can see, on no evidence—in the error of believing that the effect of ending the earnings rule will lead to many people reducing their incomes and so paying less tax. There are

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      two other matters that the Government ignore altogether.
      Let me take these in turn. It is the Government's apparent belief that people will reduce their incomes. I find it strange that the Government take the view that if we remove a disincentive to work there will be some who work less. The Government do not put it in those terms, but that is what they mean. They argue that if someone gets his pension as well as his earnings, he will be able to work fewer hours without loss of income. I have to concede that there may be some, especially those who are disabled or are nearing the moment when they feel that they want to give up work altogether, who may do exactly that. The Government's argument is that there will be a reduction of about 10 per cent. in the earnings of pensioners across the board. That is a wildly excessive figure.
      In a letter from the Under-Secretary of State to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton it was stated:
      "The idea that people who unexpectedly qualify for a pension which they did not previously receive might feel able to reduce their hours of work is in accordance with an acceptable economic theory."
      I suspect that this is what it is based on. We are given a reference:
      "A formal statement of the theory as applied to an earnings-tested social security benefit may be found in 'The Labour Supply Curves under Income Maintenance Programs' by G. Hanoch and M. Honig, Journal of Public Economics, Volume 9, 1978".
      There may be a theory, but there is really no evidence at all. Hon. Members on both sides of the House know perfectly well that the vast majority of people need every penny of income they can get. After all, are we not being reminded of that every day this week? The figure based on a 10 per cent. cut, which I suggest is wildly excessive, increases the cost of abolishing the rule by some £17 million. I should be prepared to concede that there may be a few at the margin, and I suggest that the increase is more of the order of £2 million to, say, £3 million, but I do not believe that it would be more than that. My previous figure of a cost of £48 million then becomes £51 million, but that is without taking account of two factors of which the Government take no account at all.
      I start with a quotation:
      "If the earnings rule were abolished a number of people who in present circumstances
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      might well retire would not then retire."—[Official Report, 29 January 1975; Vol. 885, c. 469.]
      I agree, because it seems only common sense. It was said by the late Brian O'Malley, who, as we all know, had a deep knowledge and understanding of these matters which we all greatly respected.
      That is the first point. There will be some people who are coming up to retirement and who are planning to retire but who, if they find that they do not lose their whole pension when they go on working, will go on working. There is nothing at all in this report on that. There is no figure given. It is all the odder because in 1976 an OPCS survey found that 40 per cent. of non-working women between the ages of 60 and 64, and men between 65 and 69, wanted to work beyond retirement age, and yet no account was taken of that. I believe that there ought to be something in for that because extra tax revenue would be paid as a result of some of these people continuing at work.
      On my second point, I referred earlier to the psychological effect of the earnings rule to which increasingly people are giving credence. It is clear that the earnings rule is thought by many working pensioners to limit their earnings by more than is in fact the case. This point was made in paragraph 2.8 of the report, which said:
      "Relatively few, about 80,000, seemed to be limiting their earnings because of the earnings rule and of these only 40,000 were influenced by the correct earnings limit rather than a misconception of it. These answers say more about the general state of confusion surrounding the rule than about the extent to which it really acts as a disincentive".
      Poor knowledge may be as much of a problem as the rule itself, but, considering that the rule has operated for 30 years, we must recognise that if people do not understand it now, they never will. The fact is that it deters people from working.
      There must be many pensioners who do not work and who would like to work but who never get round to working because they have been put off by their impression of how the earnings rule would affect them. Therefore, rather than that they should start some new part-time job, they accept retirement. If they had the chance to keep on full-time, they would do so. There are 2 million non-working pensioners in the earnings rule bracket, of

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      whom about 1 million are, or would be, affected by the present rule. Is it reasonable to assume that not one of them will return to work if the earnings rule is abolished?
      9.0 p.m.
      Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend accept that it is not only the money they can earn which has to be considered, but the fact that people who are going into retirement because of this misconception have the skills that are needed to keep our factories moving? Once they have gone out of the system, this could very well lead to higher unemployment.
      Mr. Jenkin: My hon. Friend is right. Studies produced by the Department of Employment show that it is a substantial fallacy, though not a total one, to believe that young men step into old men's jobs. That does not happen. The fact that elderly people go on working seems to have remarkably little effect on the availability of jobs for youngsters at the other end of the age bracket. I do not believe there is any argument for keeping on the earnings rule as a disincentive to people to work in order to provide jobs for younger people. That is a fallacy, and my hon. Friend is right.
      My point is that there is nothing in the White Paper to suggest that people would return to work after retirement age once they knew they could keep their pension and earnings, paying only the tax on the income. The question is how much extra tax revenue we should allow in respect of people who are coming up to retirement but who decide to go on working and in respect of those who have retired and who believe that, with the ending of the earnings rule, they could go back to work. I do not know the answer, and it is a difficult question to answer without a further survey.
      In the CPC pamphlet of 1976 it was estimated that an extra 25,000 people would remain in work or return to work who would otherwise retire, and it was calculated on the figures in that year that there would be extra tax revenue of £19 million. If we apply the same proportions to today's figures, both as to tax revenue and in respect of the numbers involved, we estimate that this would yield a tax revenue of £46 million which
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      would have to be thrown in on the credit side. If my sums are right, that reduces the total net cost of abolishing the earnings rule to £5 million.
      If we were wholly satisfied with £5 million, we would now be debating a new clause to abolish the earnings rule and I suggest that we would carry it because it would have support in all parts of the House. I do not know whether the figure of £46 mililon is right. The Minister's letter to my hon. Friend dismisses the figure as fanciful. Perhaps I may quote from page 3 of that letter:
      "The OPCS Survey attempted to discover whether any pensioner did not work because of the rule but the replies were difficult to interpret."
      We have to rely on anecdotal evidence in deciding whether the figure is fanciful. I refer to a recent issue of "Choice", the magazine published for retired people. A journalist interviewed an elderly widow whose husband, when he retired, became bored, returned to work and found that the earnings rule substantially limited the value to him. He was losing a pound for a pound. That was the rub.
      The report said:
      "the wages paid to him meant that he had to surrender some of his state pension. He was angry at the deduction. His view was that he had paid for the pension and it offended his sense of justice that he should be 'fined' for doing a fair day's work".
      The article says that it would have been better if the man had approached the matter more philosophically and continued working. But he could not. He gave up the job in mute protest. A few months later he was dead. His widow was convinced that if he had kept on at his job he would still be alive.
      That is an extreme case. But there are people who resent the situation. They take the view that they would rather take the pension, retire and have their time to themselves. But there are those who would carry on working or return from retirement if it were not for the earnings rule. Whether or not the figure involved is £46 million, something should have been put in the balance to cover that situation.
      I cannot argue on the basis of guesswork. If it were to cost £25 million, or £30 million, to abolish the earnings rule, I do not believe that it would be justified in the present state of the nation's

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      finances. We have always approached such matters with responsibility. I cannot prove that it will not cost that amount.
      However, the Government should have the power to make the change by order. We have hammered out the principles. We are agreed about the rule being undesirable and that it should go. When we can afford it, we should phase the rule out. That is what my new clause proposes.
      There is another argument involving the wives of pensioners and invalidity pensioners. Theirs is a different case. Even if we could abolish the earnings rule at no cost—and that could be done for such pensioners—it is difficult to justify paying a dependence allowance to somebody who, by definition, is not a dependant. I do not seek to argue that case now because it involves different principles.
      We are all agreed about ending the earnings rule for pensioners and that it should be done as soon as resources allow. As a result of the latest work which the Opposition obliged the Government to undertake, we are nearly there. It would be reasonable for the House to decide to remove the procedural obstacle of legislation and to allow the Government to act by order. The facts are clear. When we can afford it we should get rid of this unfair anachronism, once and for all.
      Mr. Robert Hughes: I agree that the earnings rule is a most unpopular measure, but the campaign to abolish the rule has become a populist cause. Sometimes people are unwilling to face the realities.
      The right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) lost me when he said that if the earnings rule were abolished all the people working at present who were affected by that rule would retire. That seems to defy logic.
      The right hon. Member's reasoning seemed to fly in the face of common sense and all the evidence—which is anecdotal—which has been presented to me by pensioners in my constituency. Almost to a man—or a woman—they say that if the earnings rule were abolished they would go back to work. Whether they would go back to work is open to question. But the right hon. Member's reference
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      to the psychology of the matter is not far off the mark.
      We should consider the economic and sociological effect of people not retiring at 60 or 65, or going back to another job after retiring from their main job. One thing must be established first. That is that the retirement pension is what it says. It is a retirement pension, a pension for people who are not in employment.
      Confusion arises when people are told that they must retire at 65, all the actuarial calculations of contributions having presumably been based on some notional life span of employment. If men are told that they must retire at 65 and women at 60, in normal circumstances, although it is not a legal requirement that they must retire, they feel that having paid for X number of years they are entitled to that pension as of right, because they have paid insurance contributions or taxes for it. It is some time since I looked at the actuarial position but I have a feeling that a big whack of retirement pensions comes out of general taxation and not from a sound actuarial insurance scheme.
      There is no absolute principle that as one has paid for one's retirement over the years, one is entitled to it as of right at 65. One is, of course, entitled to it if one retires. Leaving the issue of principle aside, what would be the effect of abolishing the earnings rule in terms of employment? With 1½ million unemployed, we cannot say that people should go on working beyond the normal retirement age of 65.
      I know that the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford said that there is little evidence to show that young men step into old men's shoes. I am not sure how firm his evidence is, but if it became normal practice, as it would be considered normal practice if the earnings rule were abolished for people to stay on beyond normal retiring age, this would be bound to have an effect on the number of people in work and those seeking work. How big or how small that effect would be, none can tell, but it would have a significant effect if one takes at face value the number of people who have told me that they did not want to retire but that to go on working would have been a financial disadvantage through loss of part of their pension.

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      I believe that a substantial number would either continue in their jobs or go to other jobs apart from the one in which they have worked for most of their lives.
      A twin argument is developing in the country. On the one hand, there is the perfectly principled argument that people should retire earlier than 65 in order to enjoy a leisure life at a time when they are physically and mentally active enough to appreciate leisure that they cannot get during their working period. That is a perfectly reasonable argument. But there is another argument, to which I do not wholly subscribe, that the way to cure the unemployment problem is to reduce the retiring age of men to 60, which would automatically release jobs for younger people.
      I am a little worried about that argument, because it would simply mask the unemployment problem. One would be simply juggling with figures, just as we altered the unemployment position by raising the school leaving age. It was the right thing to do in itself. It affected the unemployment figures but did not affect the general problem of providing for full employment. I am not in favour of facile solutions that mask a real problem of providing meaningful employment for people of working age.
      These two arguments tend to push us in the direction of reducing the retirement age. Yet we seem to say, on the other hand, that the retirement age will be reduced but people will be allowed to earn more without penalty. These arguments are at odds with and pull against each other. The way to tackle the problem of retired people in meeting their daily costs and paying for their rent, electricity and food is not by juggling with the abolition of the earnings rule. The right way is to provide decent pensions.
      9.15 p.m.
      Although it is unpopular to argue with pensioners and their organisations that the earnings rule should not be abolished, it is an argument that must be put. It is akin to the argument over the claim that the pension part of a person's income should not be taxed. That is another popular cause, but I am coming increasingly to the view that we are tackling the problems of hardship in our society by creating special cases to which we give
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      privileges instead of looking at how we can provide the wherewithal to give all the special classes a decent standard of living.
      I wish that we would look much more at that end of the argument instead of concentrating on arguments about abolishing the earnings rule There is, however, one aspect of the argument in favour of abolishing the rule with which I have some sympathy. I have no vast body of evidence to substantiate what I have to say, but I am told that many employers take on pensioners because they can tell the pensioner that he will be paid only £40 a week because if he gets £45 or more he will lose his pension.
      Many people do not understand precisely how the earnings rule works. I do not claim to understand it myself. Some people believe that they will lose their pension if they work on beyond their retirement at above a certain wage. I do not think that people set out to tell me lies, and there seems to be evidence that unscrupulous employers deliberately take on pensioners at much less than the going rate for the job because the pensioners believe that employers have a hold over them. Again, the best way to tackle that is under the fair wages provisions and by ensuring that investigations into low pay are properly carried out.
      The immediate abolition of the earnings rule would be a move against the sort of policies that we want to see of people retiring and having a decent living without having to work. If a man has spent all his days driving a lorry, especially in the sort of foul conditions that we are experiencing now, or down the pits—and thank heaven I have never had to do that—he is entitled to retire at a decent age and not be forced to work on. He is entitled to retire at a time when he can appreciate the value of society and benefit from all it has to offer.
      We need to tackle the question of how people can retire and have the wherewithal to enjoy their leisure without financial worries. That would be better than adopting the populist cause of abolishing the earnings rule. The bad effects of that are probably greater than the good effects that some people believe would result.
      Mr. George Rodgers: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) for ably covering a great deal of the ground that

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      I had wished to cover. That will reduce the length of my speech.
      The pension is linked to retirement, and it is almost a contradiction to suggest that people should remain at work when they are receiving the retirement pension. I appreciate that in our constituencies and surgeries the opposite view is often put, and many pensioners point out that they have paid contributions that entitle them to a pension, despite the fact that they continue to work.
      I do not entirely accept that argument. If we assess the contributions formula, we see that the younger working population is funding the pensions scheme. The value of the pension, especially under the present Government, has increased in real terms, and that increase is being financed by the population that is still at work.
      But there is a wider background to the new clause. We must recognise that the available work force in this country—that is, the number of people between 16 and 65, excluding students—has increased considerably over recent years and will continue to increase at a quite sensational pace during the coming years. The available labour force will increase by about 2 million in the next 15 years. This will be alongside the advance of technology, which will lead to a smaller labour force being required, especially in manufacturing industry.
      I advocate earlier retirement. I do not accept the argument that this is perhaps a sly or almost dishonest way of dealing with the unemployment problem. I believe that it is a genuine and worthy way of reducing unemployment. If the requirement for people in the work force is lessened, we should accept the position. We should, if we can, reduce the retirement age and the length of the working week and, by various other methods, seek to reduce the work force, while retaining our capacity to generate prosperity. If there is the opportunity to do this, we should welcome it. It would rather defeat the purpose of that philosophy if I were to support the new clause. I would not press the enforcement of a compulsory retirement age, but I do not think that we should encourage people excessively to remain at work.
      Not all those who continue in employment after they have reached retirement
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      age are there for virtuous reasons. Many of them are in employment simply because the opportunity presents itself, and opportunities of that sort are not generally available to people. Some are unable to take advantage of employment in old age because they worked excessively when they were younger. Many are too ill, too exhausted, too worn out to take up employment. Generally speaking, it is those who have had a comfortable working lifetime who are able to take advantage of employment after normal retirement age.
      While recognising all the arguments which have been put at some length and in some detail, I cannot accept that we have a priority for abolishing the earnings rule at this stage. I think that it should come very low in our list of priorities. Therefore I cannot support the proposition.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Eric Deakins): We have had an interesting debate, which has gone fairly wide, on the whole subject of retirement in connection with the earnings rule. Perhaps it would help, as the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) spent quite a long time in introducing it, if I made some comments about the new clause.
      The clause gives power to make an affirmative order to stop deductions from pensions under the earnings rule in respect of retirement pensioners and the dependent wives of retirement and invalidity pensioners and of those receiving industrial injuries unemployability supplement.
      The Government see several disadvantages in proceeding in this way. First, the retirement condition, upon which entitlement to retirement pension rests, can be satisfied either by reference to the amount of time a person expects to spend at work after retirement or the amount of money he expects to earn, which is now up to £45 a week. The earnings rule is inextricably bound up with the retirement condition as the basis upon which entitlement to pension rests, and it has always been recognised that abolition of the earnings rule means that the retirement condition has to go also.
      The effect on the retirement condition of ceasing to make deductions under the

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      earnings rule, in consequence of an order made under the new clause, is not clear. The Act would still provide for a retirement condition, although the circumstances in which it could be satisfied are debatable, and it is doubtful whether the ensuing legal tangle would accurately reflect the wishes of Parliament. It is an unsatisfactory solution, therefore, to remove the earnings rule in isolation. The remainder of the provisions in the Act are left in doubt, and we would not think that this is an appropriate way in which to set about the operation.
      The second difficulty is that the new clause excludes the most likely way of bringing the earnings rule to an end—that is, by phasing it out. The Government are already committed to phasing out the earnings rule. The cost of overnight abolition is substantial. It involves considerable public expenditure, and phasing out would allow us to meet this cost over a period of years. As suggested in the report on the earnings rule which was published last October, phasing out could be accomplished by progressive reduction of the upper age to which the rule ceases to apply, at present 70 for men and 65 for women.
      I shall deal briefly with the points raised by the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford about costs. One of the recurring features of these debates—we have had a number of debates on the earnings rule—is a dispute about costs. Costs are very important, and it is right that we should examine them closely. They can also be very complex. It would do injustice to some of the points involved to make them subject to exchanges, so to speak, off the cuff. The question of cost has been given a good run in the House and in Committee.
      Estimates of costs were debated at some length during the passage of the Social Security (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in 1977. The Government undertook to prepare a detailed report, which the right hon. Member quoted tonight. The report was prepared in October last year. Various costs were closely examined. The estimates published were the most sophisticated that it had been so far possible to make. These were challenged by the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) in
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      the Committee on this Bill before Christmas.
      In the light of the hon. Gentleman's arguments, we re-examined the figures with the help of the Government Actuary, who is independent of my Department, and my own economic advisers. In the result, we see no reason to alter the estimates put forward. Perhaps more to the point, we have not been convinced that the alternative estimates put forward challenging our own are based on evidence sufficiently sound to persuade us to prefer them. It would serve no purpose of ours to put forward figures that were unnecessarily high. We, too, welcome low figures where they are justified. I wrote to the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton on 19 January explaining our reasons. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to quote several passages from that letter.
      In these debates we have gone over a lot of ground. I doubt whether there is much scope left for profitable exploration. The cost of abolishing the earnings rule is still formidably high. It is between £64 million and £124 million after allowing for tax, depending on the number of people who would decide to defer taking their pension so as to earn increments on it. The actual number that would defer their pension may be uncertain. In any event, the cost is a problem that has to be faced by any Government. It would help to be able to take on that cost gradually.
      The third point about the new clause is that it ties the abolition of the earnings rule for retirement pensioners to that of dependent wives. In the case of retirement pensions, the function of the earnings rule is to support the retirement condition. But in the case of an increase of benefit for a wife the earnings rule is a test of dependency. As the right hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out, it sets the point at which the wife's earnings have become too high to be consistent with her being regarded as being dependent on her pensioner husband. In tackling the earnings rule, therefore, it is necessary to separate the effect of the rules on the retirement pension from the effect on benefit for the dependent wife. The new clause does not do that.
      Having pointed out those aspects of the new clause which make it unacceptable

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      as it stands, I acknowledge the common ground that the Government share with hon. Members opposite in that we agree that when resources are available the earnings rule should go. This is a commitment that we have made previously. That being so, we see advantage as well in taking suitable preparatory steps to achieve that purpose. I have indicated the defects in the new clause which hinder making progress in the desired direction. I accept that it is insufficient for the Government simply to find fault with proposals that other people have put forward while making no positive move. Probably the most promising way forward would be through a progressive reduction in the upper age for the retirement pensioners' earnings rule.
      If the right hon. Gentleman will at this stage ask leave to withdraw the new clause, the Government will in another place introduce a new clause that will enable the Government, by means of orders subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, to phase out the earnings rule for retirement pensioners by steadily reducing the period over which it applies, with the aim of abolishing it completely. In so doing the Government would simply be taking power to make changes. The question of using that power would need to be considered in the light of the economic situation at the time, in relation to the many other claims on public expenditure and the Government's expenditure priorities.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The Government have been most forthcoming on this. I am especially grateful to the Under-Secretary for reiterating the Government's commitment to getting rid of the earnings rule. We have listened to two closely argued speeches by the hon. Members for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) and for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers). They both made it clear that they did not want to see the end of the earnings rule. They were prepared to argue for it.
      It is important that the Government have reiterated that they are committed to ending the earnings rule. I found the arguments of the hon. Member for Chorley unattractive. He seemed to think that it was necessary to have the earnings rule in order to save people from themselves, that they feel that they have to go on working but they were worn out and they should really retire.
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. George Rodgers: I should make my point clear, because I did not intend to give that impression. I said that some people were unable to take advantage of any relaxation in the earnings rule because of the nature of their working lives, which have been hard. I said that they were worn out and sick, and unable to continue working. That is rather different from what the right hon. Gentleman suggested that I said.
      Mr. Jenkin: Then I fear it is even less admirable than I thought. I was interested to see the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) nodding in agreement. Of course my hon. Friends will recognise that we have just heard the old Socialist cry "If I cannot have it, you shall not have it either."
      Mr. Dennis Skinner: I had better clear the decks as well. I come from the pits, and I still represent a constituency that has many thousands of miners and retired miners. The fact is that when we introduced a new scheme recently for early retirement at 60 over a period of years, only about half a dozen miners in the whole of the Derbyshire coalfield stayed on beyond the retirement age, which is down to 62. The point that my hon. Friend is making is absolutely right. In that kind of industry most of the people concerned simply cannot carry on working and they look forward to their retirement. As far as I am concerned, I have done my 20 years underground. I qualify under the scheme, and if they get the age down to 55 it will not be long before I can retire.
      Mr. Jenkin: Many of us on the Conservative Benches would feel a very great sense of loss if the hon. Member for Bolsover retired. Nobody for one moment has denied the right of someone who reaches retirement age to retire if that is what he or she wants to do. The argument is—the Government's latest report emphasises it—that many people feel able to stay on doing the same job, the same job on a reduced basis or, as I suspect is the case with many of the Derbyshire coalminers, other lighter jobs above ground. I bet that they take jobs behind the bars and in all sorts of other useful ways where their experience and personalities help them to help themselves.

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      Nothing that I have said would prevent them from doing so. On this side, we want to see a progressive move to more flexible retirement and greater freedom of choice. Ending the earnings rule is one important step in this direction.
      I understand the case that the Under-Secretary has made. One way of doing this is to alter the ages—to reduce the age by a year, or six months, or whatever. I would be grateful if the Under-Secretary would examine the possibility of raising the limit faster than is currently done under the 1977 Act and to include that in the proposed amendment, in addition, as an alternative method so that we can have a combination of raising the earnings limit and reducing the age.
      I would be a little unhappy if I thought that the only thing that we could do was to reduce the age by order. I suspect that if one wanted to accelerate the raising of the limit one would then have to have a Bill. Perhaps that can be done by order already. I suspect that all that can be done by order is to move in line with earnings, because that was what was agreed in 1977. If the Under-Secretary would undertake to do that as well—I see that he is nodding assent—we would feel that we had amply achieved our purpose this evening and that when the Bill comes back from another place it will contain an acceptable clause which we shall greatly welcome.
      In view of what the Minister has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    New Clause 3

      AMENDMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY (INVALID CARE ALLOWANCE) REGULATIONS 1976
      'The Social Security (Invalid Care Allowance) Regulations 1976 shall be amended by adding the following sub-paragraph at the end of Regulation 6:—
      '(3) The relationships of "husband" and "wife" as are specified in sub-paragraph (1) of this regulation shall be taken to include common-law husband and common-law wife respectively, provided that any allowance payable by reason of this sub-paragraph only shall be payable out of the National Insurance Fund'.".—[Mr. Newton.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Tony Newton: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      I believe that I can explain the new clause fairly briefly. Those who have studied the Amendment Paper will have seen that my new clause concerns the invalid care allowance. I can sum up its purpose very quickly. It is designed to allow the payment of an invalid care allowance to a common law husband.
      The House will be aware of the purpose of the invalid care allowance. It is a benefit for men and, at present, only for single women of working age who cannot go out to work because they are needed at home to care for a severely disabled relative who is receiving an attendance allowance. A whole range of issues which arise on this allowance—in particular the fact that it is not paid to married women—are controversial and could be discussed. My new clause concentrates on a much narrower point.
      I recognise that the phrase "common law" is not particularly elegant or attractive. But I think we can all agree that there are many relationships which are enduring, stable and worth while and which can only be described by the use of that phraseology. They are, almost by definition, likely to be such enduring and worthwhile relationships in a case which would be covered by my new clause, which is one where one of the partners is loking after the other—the husband is looking after the common law wife in circumstances where she is very severely disabled.
      I should acknowledge at once, if only to remind the Minister of the correspondence that we have had, that this matter arose in my mind because of a constituency case which came to my attention. For obvious reasons, I do not want to name the constituent, but I think it might be helpful if I briefly outline the circumstances.
      When my constituent came back from the war—now some considerable time ago—his wife had gone and was subsequently untraceable. Since then he has lived with his present partner, for a period of some 32 years. Ten years ago this second partner had a very severe stroke and was substantially paralysed and severely disabled. My constituent later found that he was forced to give up his work in order to care for her.

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      In due course, becoming aware of the provisions for an invalid care allowance—which appeared to cover circumstances such as his, because the lady is in receipt of an attendance allowance—my constituent applied for an invalid care allowance, only to find that because they were not legally married he did not qualify. That is a point which caused me great concern.
      I accept at once that it is almost certain, in the circumstances as I know them, that my constituent and his partner could get married because present divorce law would almost certainly allow the matter to be sorted out. But they have been living in the same community for a long time, with most people thinking that they are already husband and wife. They have a daughter who is married. I am not sure whether she knows about the relationship, but probably her relatives and friends do not know of it. Very understandably, many people are shy about such matters. Some people would be shy, and some would not.
      At any rate, I feel that everybody in the House will understand why, after 32 years, this couple do not particularly want to go through the formalities of a divorce and remarriage, especially if it became known to their friends and relatives in the area. Therefore, they find that they cannot get the invalid care allowance. The man applied for it, and he was refused. He appealed, and that was refused. He came to me, and I wrote to the Minister. The Minister replied explaining, very courteously and sympathetically, why my constituent had been refused this allowance.
      It is perfectly clear that, under the existing regulations, the man was rightly refused. It may perhaps be helpful to the House if I read the list of qualifying relationships, as it were, from the Social Security (Invalid Care Allowance) Regulations 1976. This comes from part of paragraph 1 to regulation 6. The people who can qualify are:

      "(a) lineal descendant or ascendant in a direct line;

      (b) husband, wife, step-father, step-mother, step-son, step-daughter, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister, step-brother, step-sister, aunt, uncle, nephew, niece; or

      (c) father-in-law, mother-in-law, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, son-in-law or daughter-in-law."

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      That regulation seems to be pretty widely drawn, but it is clear that it does not include what, for the purpose of the new clause, I have been forced to call a common law husband.
      In cases such as that of my constituent, which I have described—and I have no doubt that other hon. Members could think of comparable cases or cases with somewhat different circumstances but leading to the same result—my argument almost makes itself. It seems patently unfair that this allowance should not be available to them.
      I should like to make one further point. Having read the definitions contained in subsection (1), those who have studied the new clause assiduously will see that what I have actually sought to add is a subsection (3). It may have occurred to some to wonder precisely what sub-paragraph (2) is in paragraph 6 of the existing regulations. Perhaps I may also read that to the House, because that sub-paragraph says:
      "Any such relationship as is specified in paragraph (1) of this regulation"—
      that is the one from which I have already extensively quoted—
      "shall be taken to include also any such relationship as would have subsisted if some person born illegitimate had been born legitimate."
      Unless I have gravely misunderstood the matter, what that means is that the daughter of my constituent and his common law wife could qualify for an invalidity care allowance because she is deemed to be legitimised under these regulations, but the father of that daughter cannot qualify as he is not legitimised for this purpose.
      That seems to transform something which, in common humanity, I would think unfair into something amounting almost to a breach of natural justice. I hope that Ministers will very seriously consider putting this matter right in the terms that I have suggested in the new clause.
      Mr. Carter-Jones: Has the hon. Gentleman made any estimate of the cost of implementing the new clause? I have great sympathy with the idea behind the new clause, but does he think that the difficulty would be overcome by a simple statutory declaration, without the public knowing anything about it at all, it being a matter between the parties involved and

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      the Department of Health and Social Security?
      Mr. Newton: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, in this matter as in many others, for his helpful suggestions. I shall certainly put them to my constituents. I should be grateful for the Minister's comments. I had not formed any estimate of the cost. However, in this day and age, especially as for many people divorce is much easier than it used to be, I should have thought that the numbers affected by this difficulty must be tiny and that the cost must be verging on the insignificant. However, perhaps Ministers can give us some estimate. Obviously, this is something that will have to be taken into account. Unless the cost is more than a few tens of thousands of pounds, I believe that here we have something that is clearly unjust, and if there may be ways around the difficulty we should seek to put right something which seems so manifestly unfair.
      Mr. Robert Hughes: I support the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newton) in his new clause. I seek from the Government an assurance that if, perhaps for some technical reason, they feel that the new clause is defective, they will take steps in another place to bring forward an appropriate amendment. I am astonished at the story that the hon. Gentleman has told this evening—that what are called common law relationships prevent people from qualifying for benefit.
      I ask a very difficult legal question of the Minister. I do not expect a reply tonight, but I hope that he will write to me about it. He will be aware that in Scotland, where we do not necessarily call people common law husbands and wives, a marriage by habit and repute is a perfectly legal marriage for all sorts of ancillary legal matters, such as accession and so on. Therefore, I wonder how far in Scotland the parties to marriages of habit and repute would find themselves disqualified in the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman described.
      I go further than the hon. Gentleman and say that many people today live together as man and wife without either the blessing of the Church or the legal sanction of a marriage in a registry office. If they live together as man and wife and pay taxes as man and wife, surely they
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      are entitled to benefits as man and wife. It seems as simple and logical as that. If there are difficulties about the qualifying test, the fact that they live together and pay taxes on the basis of being husband and wife, possibly with children, ought to satisfy the test for benefit.
      I should add one barbed note about acceptance of the new clause. If the DHSS carries out investigations and concludes that a couple are living together as man and wife—the old question of the co-habitation rule in relation to benefits—and if it is good enough for the Department to say that it means that people are living together and therefore the husband is required to contribute, where a marriage clearly exists, whether or not legally sanctioned or blessed by the Church, the corollary is that the parties should benefit from the excellent scheme which the State has made available.
      9.45 p.m.
      Mrs. Audrey Wise: I also rise to urge the Government to look sympathetically at this proposal. I do so partly because of the cohabitation rule, since people who are living together are deemed, for one purpose, to need to be treated as though they were legally married. I believe that that should apply in this case also.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) mentioned taxation. I would point out that at an earlier stage in their relationship, when the wife was healthy and perhaps working, such a couple would be paying more tax than a legally married couple, since they would not be entitled to the married man's allowance. Therefore, there can be no argument that they will not have paid their fair share when they were both in good health.
      I do not believe that this proposal would cost much. If it does, it means that many men are sticking by women in these circumstances and caring for them in ways that couples who are legally married might find burdensome. I believe that the Government should look sympathetically at this proposal, and I urge them to do so.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: If the Government do adopt such a new clause, they might call it the "Lee Marvin clause".
      Mr. Alfred Morris: Let me say straight away that we shall look sympathetically

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      at everything that has been said by the hon. Gentleman and by my hon. Friends in keeping this matter under active consideration.
      The invalid care allowance is a non-contributory benefit which is available to people of working age but who cannot work because they have to stay at home to care for a severely disabled relative. In this context, "relative" means wife, parent or grand-parent, child or grand-child, sibling or half-sibling, aunt, uncle, nephew or niece, certain step-relatives and certain in-laws. The benefit is not available to a wife caring for her husband, or companion if they are not married.
      When ICA was introduced in 1976, the Government said that they would seek to extend coverage to those caring for non-relatives once experience had been gained of dealing with claims from relatives.
      We estimate broadly that there could be between 200 and 300 men who would qualify under the new clause proposed by the hon. Gentleman. The gross cost of paying ICA to them would be about £150,000 a year. But, since most such men would be receiving supplementary benefit, the net cost would be lower, though I am not able to provide precise figures tonight. Extending the benefit to all those caring for non-relatives would, however, increase expenditure on the benefit by an estimated £1½ million a year at current benefit rates, though there would be some offsetting savings on supplementary benefits. Such extra expenditure could only be afforded if extra resources became available. Even then it would have to compete with the many other pressing claims for additional expenditure.
      The amendment seeks to extend invalid care allowance to a man who is caring for a woman to whom he is not married while they are living together as man and wife, and I know that the hon. Gentleman has a particular constituency case in mind. The new clause is technically defective in two respects—first, for obvious reasons, it makes the benefit payable out of the national insurance fund, which is quite inappropriate, and, secondly, it amends paragraph 7 of the regulations instead of paragraph 6. But, more important, it would be invidious to extend
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      the benefit to some persons caring for non-relatives and not to others. Essentially, the question—
      Mr. George Rodgers: I am becoming a little confused, because my right hon. Friend appears to be explaining why he cannot grant a benefit which at this stage has not been asked for. As I understand it, this is a very limited proposal which would apply to a very limited number of people. My right hon. Friend used the phrase "actively consider". I should like him to define what he means by that. Are we to have a commitment that this will perhaps be amended in another place?
      Mr. Morris: I can give no definite commitment tonight. What I have said is that we shall sympathetically consider all that has been said by the hon. Gentleman and by my hon. Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers) says that there is no claim on behalf of non-relatives generally, but there is a very strong claim on behalf of non-relatives generally.
      We are here discussing a proposal that would help perhaps only 200 or 300 people. Nevertheless, I assure the House that there is a strong and persistent claim on behalf of non-relatives generally. There is also a claim that we should pay invalid care allowance to married women. That argument is pressed very strongly on the Government. What I said earlier is that in my very neglected area there are infinite claims against only finite resources. From his close association with me, my hon. Friend knows that I shall do whatever I can to see that what has been said is considered as sympathetically as possible.
      I was saying that it would be invidious to extend the benefit to some persons caring for non-relatives and not to others.
      Mrs. Wise: I am worried about my right hon. Friend's line of argument. Of course, if the Government saw fit to extend this to non-relatives as such, I am sure that hon. Members would be very pleased. But the specific point we are now discussing does not relate to non-relatives but to people who have a very particular relationship which it is possible to define. On this small point I believe that we must press for an undertaking to come back with something specific in another place.
      Mr. Morris: I have by no means completed my argument on this point. I am in no way seeking to minimise the force of the case that has been presented tonight What I cannot do now is give a definite commitment. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) has experience of these matters from his time in Government. He will know that what I am saying is based on consultations with colleagues. I have undertaken to reflect on what has been said tonight, in further consideration of this matter. However I must emphasise that there are claims from other non-relatives who might feel that their difficulties are as great as the difficulties about which we have heard.
      Essentially, the question is whether the particular category covered by the amendment should be helped in advance of non-relatives generally. Certainly, there will be some who will doubt whether it would be right to put this category ahead of the group as a whole. In these difficult matters it is also important to draw a line which can be readily understood by claimants and staff. To single out a particular category for special treatment could create a greater sense of unfairness among people who are excluded.
      Since principal legislation is not required, I would wish to seek the advice of the National Insurance Advisory Committee on any draft regulations which would be necessary. I take note of the hon. Gentleman's concern in this area and I can assure him that as soon as the availability of resources and other priorities allow we shall seek to extend coverage to those caring for non-relatives, including this group.
      In the light of my reply, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree to ask leave to withdraw his new clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North rightly suspected that I could not tonight deal with the point about Scottish legal practice which he raised with me. I shall seek to arrange for him to have an answer as soon as possible.
      Mr. Robert Hughes: I must confess that I am worried about the mixing up of non-relatives in the legal sense with non-relatives in the emotional sense. I do not think that anyone can consider that when two people have lived together for a long time, and perhaps produced
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      children, they can be classed as non-relatives, although technically under the law they are. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give this issue a great deal of sympathetic consideration, because if the view that he is now taking is that because some other people who might qualify will not qualify, by that criterion we should never have introduced the invalid care allowance at all.
      Mr. Morris: I have said as much to my hon. Friend. What I have made clear is that I shall take this matter back to colleagues. I am sure he will appreciate, and that the House as a whole will accept, that it will cause me no displeasure to be able to increase further expenditure on the invalid care allowance and on further improving the well-being of all disabled people. But I must say that if we advance provision for one group of people, inevitably other groups will say that their claims must be urgently considered. I gladly give the assurance that my hon. Friend has asked for, namely, that I shall seek to get sympathetic consideration of all that has been said by my hon. Friend and by the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. Newton: May I comment on one or two of the technical points made by the Minister? I accept that it is not particularly appropriate to do this by primary legislation, as I have sought to do, but it was the only way open to me to raise it. The reference to the national insurance fund, as the House knows, and as the Committee upstairs knew, is the only way that such a proposal could be got within order on this Bill because of the restrictive financial resolution. So far as paragraph 7 is concerned, I believe that the Minister will find that in the up-to-date Amendment Paper the proper paragraph, No. 6, is referred to. Therefore, I think that that small objection would fall.
      The main point I would wish to make—I think that I would carry with me hon. Members on both sides of the House—is that I could wish that the Minister had been a little more willing to throw away his departmental brief in view of the specific point which has been raised and the sympathy that has been engendered throughout the House. The purpose of the new clause is not to extend the provision to all non-relatives. I can only say, as indeed other hon. Members have said,

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      that I believe a very clear-cut distinction can be drawn, and moreover one which would be accepted by most non-relatives—a distinction between other non-relatives caring for a disabled person and a common law husband, especially in cases where that relationship has subsisted for a very long time. I suppose that we should be grateful for the relatively small mercy of the Minister saying that he will look very seriously at this. I hope he will feel able to go just a little further in encouraging me to withdraw the new clause by saying either, or both, of two things.
      First, I hope that he will seek the advice of the National Insurance Advisory Committee and, secondly, that he will make a further statement about this very small point when the Bill moves to another place, which I understand is likely to be in about two or three weeks' time. I cannot believe that the scale of the issue, or the expenditure, is such that it should not be possible to carry out some further consultation and come to a view while this Bill is still before Parliament and while we can still have a further opportunity to consider the matter. If I can have one or other of those undertakings, and preferably both, I would be glad to seek the leave of the House to withdraw the motion.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: I made it clear that we would want to seek the advice of the National Insurance Advisory Committee. We are often enjoined to do this automatically before we make changes. I gave a fair indication of our intentions in this regard. I said earlier that I could not give a definite commitment to accept the clause. I have said—
      It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
      Ordered,
      That the Social Security Bill may be proceeded with at this day's sitting, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Joseph Dean.]
      Question again proposed, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Alfred MorrisI have not kept slavishly to any brief. I have said that I shall seek to ensure that all that has been said tonight is sympathetically considered.
      Mr. Newton: On the understanding that what the Minister has just said is that he will refer the matter to the National Insurance Advisory Committee, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
      Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn, drawn.

    Clause 2

      ATTENDANCE ALLOWANCE
      Mr. John Hannam: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 18, at end insert:
      'in respect of both a re-award of the attendance allowance and an award of a higher rate allowance to a person already in receipt of an attendance allowance at the lower rate'.
      Though I shall not take up too much of the time of the House, the amendment is important in that it allows us to take a further look at a problem that causes grave concern to the Disablement Income Group and other disablement organisations. We are here dealing with the qualification conditions for the attendance allowance, especially as they apply to the disabled person who is already in receipt of a lower rate attendance allowance but whose condition deteriorates to such an extent that he or she therefore becomes eligible for the higher rate allowance.
      In Committee the Minister gave an unequivocal answer to the question whether the seriously disabled person of whom we are talking would have to wait a further six months before becoming eligible for the higher rate of allowance, whatever the circumstances. His arguments then, I believe, were the ones expressed by his right hon. Friend the Minister with special responsibility for the disabled in letters and correspondence with Peter Large and the Disablement Income Group. Those arguments amount to the requirement by Government of a six months' qualifying period in order to be sure that the deterioration in the condition of the disabled person or patient is reasonably long-term or permanent.
      I accept that there are temporary illnesses, such as influenza, which could make a disabled person appear to have deteriorated suddenly for a very short period, but in Committee the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers) said that the waiting period was undoubtedly formidable and very frustrating. It is in that context that I move the amendment. We are seeking to achieve a more humane approach to the problem of the waiting period. Instances have been reported of unfortunate people who have died before the second six months' qualifying period
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      for the higher rate allowance has been completed. We can understand how that can happen.
      A particular case quoted by the Disablement Income Group, which came to the group through a social worker, was that of a lady in receipt of the lower rate allowance who had had two strokes and was partially disabled and in need of attendance. She suffered two further strokes, having already become entitled to the lower rate allowance, but had to wait a whole six months more before she could receive the higher rate of allowance.
      The husband, who had a job and would have continued working under normal circumstances, had to give up his work to look after his wife because of that six months' delay. It seems somewhat harsh to hold up that financial help for the six months after deterioration has taken place when the increase in disability has clearly taken place.
      There are also those disablement diseases such as multiple sclerosis and arthritis, where the condition is often expected to deteriorate. The problem can arise quite often. It seems to me that if the first six months' qualifying period has been completed, and if such worsening of condition takes place, at least the payment of the higher rate allowance should be backdated to start from the day when the deterioration is assessed as having taken place, and not some six months later.
      I do not believe that a temporary illness, such as influenza, which has been quoted as being one of the problems that may arise in determining deterioration, cannot be distinguished by the medical experts from the real deterioration in disability with which I am dealing.
      I hope, therefore, in moving this amendment, that this will give the Government a chance to accept the genuine purpose behind it and to look sympathetically at it.
      Mr. Deakins: The effect of the amendment that the hon. Member proposes would be that anyone already receiving the lower rate of attendance allowance whose attendance needs increased, for whatever reason, would immediately qualify for the higher rate of the allowance, notwithstanding that the conditions to be satisfied for that rate are different.

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      I can see that on the face of it this might seem a desirable amendment—indeed, there was some support for it in Committee—but I think it would produce effects quite contrary to those which the hon. Member and his hon. Friend have in mind. For example, as he acknowledged, someone may receive the lower rate because, as a result of his chronic disablement, he needs attendance by day. Should he, however, have an attack of influenza or some other acute but short illness and as a result have quite different attendance needs at night for a short while, he could, by reason of this amendment, qualify for the higher rate of the allowance for that period. In that event he would be receiving the higher rate for attendance needs that were neither established nor long-term.
      The position of someone receiving the lower rate of the allowance is no different from that of someone claiming the allowance for the first time, where there is a need to establish that the particular attendance needs that are spelt out in the Act, for whatever rate of allowance is to be paid, are settled and long-term. I think that these are the two key factors.
      The purpose of the allowance has always been to provide a measure of financial assistance to those severely chronically disabled people with settled long-term attendance needs, who, arising out of those needs, have established commitments above the normal. It would be impracticable and, we feel, wrong to alter the purpose of the allowance to meet short-term attendance needs—I think that the hon. Gentleman accepts this—or to vary it to meet what in many instances would be short-term fluctuations in those needs. If account were to be taken of temporary changes it would have to cut both ways and the allowance would have to be stopped if there were improvement, or reduced if somebody were on the higher rate. I am sure that hon. Members would not want a position to arise in which disabled people were put into a state of uncertainty about their continuing right to the allowance.
      Moreover—this, too, came up in Committee—the amendment would impose an impracticable and heavy burden on the doctors charged with deciding whether the attendance needs are satisfied. Those needs can well vary from person to person even
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      where they are suffering from similar conditions, and their necessity and extent can be satisfactorily established only over a reasonable period of time.
      As I said, we think it would be wrong to change the entire character of the allowance in the way this amendment would achieve. The six months' qualifying period makes it possible to decide with reasonable certainty that attendance needs are established and settled, and I think that is the main purpose of section 35 of the principal Act.
      Although I am sympathetic to the points that the hon. Gentleman is making, I hope that in view of what I have said he will ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Mr. Hannam: I accept the point—I think I made it clear in my own speech—about the short-term nature of the provision. I agree that we do not want to change the rules to deal with short-term deterioration. The point that I was making, which I do not think has been dealt with, is where one has the expected deterioration in such diseases as sclerosis, or with strokes and heart conditions, where in fact the six months' delay still has to take place. Is it not possible for the Minister to look again at this whole question of whether, when the deterioration is judged to be of a permanent nature, the higher rate allowance can be made payable from the date when the deterioration is assessed to have taken place?
      Mr. Deakins: I shall consider that matter and write to the hon. Gentleman as soon as I can.
      Mr. Hannam: In view of the Minister's sympathetic response, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mrs. Chalker: I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 19, at end insert—
      "(7) For the purposes of determining the entitlement to attendance allowance of any person who

      (a) has been refused payment of an allowance, or

      (b) has had an allowance withdrawn,

      Section 35 of the principal Act shall be deemed always to have had effect as amended by this section, but payment shall be made at the

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      appropriate rate out of the National Insurance Fund.".
      The amendment refers to a part of the attendance allowance that was dealt with at some length in Committee. At the end of that debate a number of us still felt unhappy about the manner in which the Government had chosen to make back payments of attendance allowance for kidney dialysis patients who dialyse at home.
      Many patients had the full facilities of the National Health Service and were dialysing in our hospitals. They were in receipt of the attendance allowance. As a result of changes in the rule by the Attendance Allowance Board, those persons who had been dialysing three times a week at home, and who, through modern methodology, were permitted to dialyse for longer periods but on fewer occasions per week, had the attendance allowance withdrawn. That was done in a way which I think every hon. Member regretted. A decision was made and it took effect during a parliamentary recess. That happened last summer, during the previous Session.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) introduced a Private Member's Bill in which he sought to rectify the anomaly whereby those who were in receipt of the facilities of the NHS and dialysed in hospital to cope with their renal failure were in receipt of the allowance and those who through modern methodology were dialysing at home and having to pay somebody to prepare their renal dialysis machines and complete the operation after their periods of dialysis were denied the attendance allowance.
      It will always remain a regret to me that we did not solve the problem in the summer. However, as a result of the work of the British Kidney Patients Association and many other interested bodies which felt that an unfair state of affairs existed, we reached a position in which the Government felt that they could no longer resist what seemed such a sensible and right solution to a problem that had, through a quirk in our law, become a matter of concern and dispute.
      When the Government moved the Second Reading of the Bill on 21 November 1978, they did so with the intention of rectifying the law and ensuring that in
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      future those who dialysed at home would receive the attendance allowance and that those who dialysed in a hospital with the attendance of Health Service staff would not qualify for the allowance because they would not be paying for someone to prepare their renal dialysis machines and complete the operation after the period of dialysis.
      We thoroughly applaud what the Government have done in the Bill. We wish that they had taken similar action when my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton introduced his Bill last year. Never mind; the Government saw sense in the end. At various stages we have concerned ourselves with the manner in which the Government have sought to make retrospective payments to about 100 persons who we know lost their attendance allowance because they were becoming home dialysis patients. We concerned ourselves with how we could rectify what had become an unfair state of affairs.
      10.15 p.m.
      In Committee, in response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton, the Minister said:
      "I know that the Opposition, not least the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin), are highly intrigued to know how the Government have the power to do this. 'Extraordinary payments' as is made clear by their title, have no statutory basis."
      This relates to the back payment of those who had been denied benefit. The Minister continued:
      "In essence, they are payments which the responsible Minister regards as being within the broad intention of the relevant statute, but outside a strict interpretation of its terms. Such payments are in general not disputed, but as they are not strictly proper in a legal sense they need to be noted in the appropriation account when that is laid before Parliament for approval."
      Something which is "not strictly proper in a legal sense" worries me. The Minister went on:
      "Responsibility for such payments rests with the departmental Minister, but, given the Treasury position under the Exchequer and Audit Departments Acts of 1866 and 1921, they may not be charged to a Vote without Treasury approval. The Treasury's position was set out in a Treasury minute of April 1868, which has been reproduced on pages 20 and 21 of the report for 1868 printed in the 'Epitome of reports of the Public Accounts Committees 1857–1937'".—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 5 December 1978; c. 25.]

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      That is a really interesting little snippet from the Official Report of the Committee, but what has concerned us for a very long while is not only that payment should be made as speedily as possible—I fully accept that that has been the Government's wish as well—but that we should not be using some rather antiquated Act to rectify a mistake of Government but, rather, that we should make clear once and for all that if a change in the rules was made by somebody—such as, in this case, the Attendance Allowance Board—we had a better way of dealing with it.
      Unfortunately, within the terms of the money resolution attached to the Bill it is simply not possible to do the job as we would wish. Therefore, in raising this issue with another of our "myth" amendments tonight—our national insurance fund amendments—we are seeking to make sure of what has happened and also to ensure for the future that we devise a better way of rectifying mistakes on the part of Government where they are quite genuinely agreed between all Members of the House.
      The further question I would put to the Minister in proposing this amendment tonight is this. I know it is early days since 5 December, but what progress has the Department made in trying to find those cases, of which the Minister spoke at column 30 of the report of the Standing Committee, of persons who should have received the attendance allowance, and particularly those cases where the person to whom the attendance allowance is being awarded is now regrettably deceased, and where the relatives of that person have a claim in law? If this is to be considered, as the Minister seemed to indicate, how far have we got in sorting out this very unfortunate situation which we allowed to occur within our legislation?
      We know that it is early days but we believe that we should seek to rectify this as speedily as possible, and this amendment will give the Minister who is to reply an opportunity to explain just how far he has proceeded with his extra-statutory payments and just how far the Department has been able to track down the relatives of deceased persons who should be claiming back attendance allowance for those who have since died but should have received it whilst they
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      were home dialysing, once the entitlement had been removed. I do not believe that we need prolong this debate, but for the sake of the record I feel we should rectify something that has been regretted by everybody but which really lies in the hands of the Government for rectification.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: This matter has already had considerable discussion both on Second Reading and in Committee. It is common ground to both sides of the House that benefit should be restored to persons dialysing at home and that arrears of benefit should be paid as soon as possible for the interval between cessation and resumption. The Bill as we introduced it allowed for the restoration of benefit. Also, as I announced on Second Reading, the Government decided to identify the persons involved forthwith and to make payments in arrears immediately. I said that the payments would be made extra-statutorily, and in Committee my right hon. Friend explained at considerable length what that meant.
      The hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker) asked me for figures. The Government have honoured their pledge, and 40 payments of arrears have already been made. The remainder will be paid as quickly as possible.
      There is no need for this amendment to enable such payments to be made. Indeed, I am advised that the amendment, if approved, would cause considerable confusion and could harm some of the people we are all concerned to help. First, in the case of those who have already been paid their arrears, the amendment would give entitlement to a second payment of arrears. It would not simply validate the existing payment but would enable the independent statutory authorities to make a new award. Hon. Gentlemen opposite presumably do not wish to make duplicate payments from public funds.
      Secondly, the amendment would put in question the payments made since 1972 to persons dialysing as hospital outpatients, because it applies to section 2(6) as fell as the other parts of clause 2. Finally, the national insurance fund is not the appropriate source for attendance allowance payments as the hon. Lady acknowledged.

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      We should pay a tribute to Mr. Peter Large, who in drafting amendments to Bills first adopted the stratagem of making recourse to the national insurance fund. His idea has been widely followed by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
      The hon. Lady referred to the British Kidney Patients Association. She may wish to know that Elizabeth Ward, of the association, wrote to me appreciatively about our solution to this difficult problem. She clearly appreciated that we wanted to help and sought the most expeditious way to do so.
      Many of those involved are already receiving their payments. The amendment is not necessary on that count. Moreover, it would create confusion and might act against the interest of claimants. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Lady will ask leave withdraw the amendment.
      Mrs. Chalker: The Minister knows why the amendment was so worded. We have, as a result of this device, received from him the good news that 40 people have so far had their back payments. However, it still behoves us to realise that we are using an ancient statute to do something which, because of administrative difficulties, we may find ourselves required to do on other occasions.
      We always hope that these things will not happen, but those of us who have been concerned with social security measures for a number of years in this House know that we are always amending and reamending provisions and bringing them up to date.
      We also know that in the nature of a developing system of assistance for the disabled and those in need we shall come across cases which in the original drafting have not been fully explained or understood. Therefore, although I accept that the amendment is defective, I believe that it has at least enabled the Minister to tell the House what is going on. It has put down a marker to the effect that in future we must look to a better way of making the extra-statutory payment for the payment which should have been owing but for the device which took place when Parliament was not in session, which meant that we could not rectify the matter by other means. I am wrong to say that we could not have rectified
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      the situation. However, the Government did not see fit to give the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) a fair wind. Had they done so, our amendment would not have been necessary.
      I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Clause 3

      MOBILITY ALLOWANCE
      Mr. Alfred Morris: I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 2, line 21, at end add—
      "(1A) In subsection (4) (increase in rate of mobility allowance) for the words 'and such other matters as he thinks relevant' there are substituted the words 'any changes in taxation which directly affect the cost of motoring for persons in receipt of mobility allowance and such other matters as he thinks relevant; and he shall lay before Parliament a statement setting out his conclusion and the reasons therefor as soon as is reasonably practicable.'."
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this we may discuss Government amendment No. 4.
      Mr. Morris: The amendments seek to tidy up two of the amendments that were accepted in Standing Committee.
      Amendment No. 3 accepts that the Secretary of State, in considering whether the rate of mobility allowance should be increased, should take into account any changes in taxation which directly affect the cost of motoring for persons in receipt of the allowance. That is the substance of subsection (5), and, as the legislation already makes clear, he can take into account any other matters that he thinks relevant.
      In accepting that any changes in taxing motoring costs should be considered, however, I must emphasise that this cannot mean that the Government will commit themselves to freezing taxation of the disabled motorist at its present level. The Government are committed to the revalorisation of petrol duty. Energy conservation needs may dictate still further increases in petrol duty in the years ahead.
      Mobility allowance is a major contribution—but a contribution only—to the

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      cost of mobility to disabled motorists. Nevertheless, we accept that in considering whether mobility allowance should be increased we should take into account any changes in taxation in this field.
      I have been asked on a number of occasions, both inside and outside the House, about the consequences for the disabled motorist of the Government's decision to abolish vehicle excise duty and to replace it by increased petrol taxation. We are studying carefully the situation. At the appropriate time I shall make a statement to the House. I emphasise that there are a number of major and relevant issues, such as the timing of the phasing out of the duty, upon which the Government are committed to consult with industry. These consultations have not yet taken place but it is hoped to begin them shortly.
      As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State made clear in Committee on 7 December, there have been inter-departmental discussions already on the position of disabled motorists. I have received a number of representations from organisations representing disabled people, including an appraisal by Mr. Peter Large, the chairman of the JCMD, which I found helpful.
      I am watching the developments carefully and I shall keep the interests of disabled people well to the fore.
      If any further assurance is required, however, I suggest that it can be found in the amendment. The Secretary of State will be required to consider in each review of mobility allowance any changes in taxation which directly affect the cost of motoring. The move to remove excise duty, from which disabled motorists are exempt, by increased petrol taxation is clearly one such change.
      As I have said, there is a lot to be done on this issue, including resolving the starting date. Things cannot be rushed, but I shall make a statement as soon as I am able.
      I turn to subsection (7). We have accepted that the Secretary of State should lay before Parliament a statement setting out his conclusions on the matter, but, whereas the original amendment required the statement to be laid
      "not later than 31 May",
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      our amendment provides for it to be laid
      "as soon as is reasonably practicable".
      It will be sensible for the announcement relating to any increase of mobility allowance to be made at the same time as any announcement relating to an increase in other social security benefits.
      Inthe past, these announcements have been made on various dates, sometimes more than once a year, and within the operational limitations it would be possible for such an announcement to be made as late as early June. Hence, we feel it is right to leave the Secretary of State with greater flexibility. Since no specific date is set for the announcement of upratings of other social security benefits, it would seem invidious to single out the mobility allowance in this way. We will, however, undertake to provide the statement as soon as possible after the end of each tax year.
      10.30 p.m.
      The House has sufficient procedures to prompt the statement if one has not appeared in what seems to right hon. and hon. Members to be a reasonable time. The amendment which was passed in Committee as clause 3(6) and which we are seeking to leave out is that which required the Secretary of State to have regard to any changes in the charges levied under the Motability scheme for leasing vehicles to persons in receipt of the mobility allowance.
      There are a number of reasons for this course. Motability is an independent voluntary organisation. Its leasing scheme at present affects only a small proportion of the 145,000 people who will eventually receive mobility allowance, and even when the leasing scheme is fully operative it will still cater for only a proportion of the total number of recipients of the allowance. That is not the principal reason for our amendment. A more important reason is that if Motability charges are to be taken into account the Secretary of State should, strictly speaking, have access to its accounts and financial arrangements. As it is an independent organisation, this inevitably raises problems of law and business practice generally. For these reasons, we would regard this subsection as undesirable. For the detailed reasons I have given, I hope that the House will

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      agree to accept the Government's amendments.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I would like to ask a question to which I hope the Minister can reply, or write to me about. As Motability receives Government support, in the sense of administrative back-up, provided at the expense of the Exchequer, does that not automatically give the Public Accounts Committee the right to examine the accounts of Motability? It certainly does so in cases where the Government are contributing to the funds of a private body. For instance, a body like the Family Fund is as much subject to the Public Accounts Committee and the Exchequer and Audit Department as a Government Department itself.
      Mr. Morris: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, my Department helps Motability by seconding staff. We have given what we regard as very important help to this organisation. I cannot give a precise answer tonight, as the right hon. Gentleman suspected, on the point he has raised. He asked if I would write to him with an answer. I am glad to give that assurance. He and I, as patrons of the organisation, feel that it has done a great deal of good already. I am certain that the whole House wants Motability to achieve further success in the months and years ahead.
      Mr. Hannam: I would like to follow up the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) in connection with the Motability scheme. I am disappointed that the amendment that was passed in Committee, which inserted this subsection (6) in the Bill, has had to be struck out by the Government. Echoing the words of the Minister, we are all staunch supporters of the Motability scheme. There is grave concern that the scheme is threatened by the lack of finance provided by the mobility allowance to enable it to operate properly. We were endeavouring to build in protection for the Motability scheme by this subsection.
      I agree that, technically, as it is an independent, charitable organisation, it cannot be protected in the way we hoped in our amendment in Committee. All hon. Members of the House, Government and Opposition Front Benches, want to see Motability succeed, and I know that
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      this is also the Minister's wish. It is going through some very difficult times. Something has to be done to ensure that it is made to succeed.
      In Committee, we discussed the problems that the Motability scheme is facing. We discussed the objective of creating a mobility allowance commutation scheme that would allow Motability therefore to provide necessary vehicles for disabled people in exchange for a four-year commutation of their allowance. This objective is seriously threatened, as we agreed in Committee, by rising prices and by, of course, the rather iniquitous double VAT charge both on the car and on the leasing of the vehicle.
      The figures given to us in December by Mr. Jeffrey Sterling, the chairman of Motability, showed that even the cheapest, unadapted mini-car will not now be covered by the £10 a week mobility allowance, An automatic mini, which I suppose is probably the suitable vehicle for disabled people, will now cost about £12·50 a week, if we include the insurance. If we add on the cost of adaptations that are needed for many of the recipients of these vehicles, we can see that these cars are being lifted by increased costs out of the reach of many of the low-income and non-employed disabled people who have to look to Motability in order to provide the replacement vehicles of the Government's vehicle scheme, the trikes.
      So the amendment that we passed in Committee underlined the tax claw-back problem that is being faced, where one has the £520 a year mobility allowance, where over £150 a year is being clawed back in car tax and double VAT on the purchase and the leasing of the car, and where, of course, if the disabled person is working and paying the standard rate of income tax a further £170 a year can be clawed back as well.
      The Government amendment refers to "any changes in taxation"—and I can understand how that will deal with particular examples, such as changes in vehicle excise duty, or motor vehicle taxation, and so on—and then it says
      "and such other matters as he thinks relevant".
      I would have liked the right hon. Gentleman to explain a little more fully what was in his mind in that phrase, because

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      he did not really refer to the difficulties of Motability; he expressed the view, which we all share, that he wants the scheme to succeed. He did not go into the details behind the Committee's decision to put this subsection in the Bill. I hope that we shall hear a little more about how the Government are to protect Motability from this gap which is going to open up between the level of the mobility allowance at £10 a week and the minimum cost now of providing and leasing a basic adapted mini-car.
      I hope that we can be assured that, in the wording of the Government amendment, Motability and its requirements will be covered, because otherwise the whole future of the vehicle provision for disabled drivers will be in jeopardy.
      Mr. Newton: Having set my hand to drafting for the Committee stage the amendments that are now being replaced, and having had the satisfaction of seeing them inserted in the Bill in Committee, I can hardly be expected to be totally enthusiastic at seeing them messed about with by some replacement Government amendments.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: The Government amendments are improvements.
      Mr. Newton: The right hon. Gentleman says that the Government amendments are improvements. I was about to say that I am rather flattered by one aspect of them, in that the wording chosen in relation to taxation is identical with my amateur draftsmanship in Committee. I take that to be very flattering indeed, because, in my relatively limited experience in this place, much of it serving on Finance Bill Committees, the parliamentary draftsmen and Ministers between them will almost invariably find some good reason for changing any Back Bencher's wording, since that makes them feel that they are one up in the game. I hope that I can be forgiven for feeling slightly one up in the game, since my wording has been accepted in that part of the Government amendment.
      As the Minister has said, there were three elements in the amendments that we passed in Committee, one relating to tax, obviously with vehicle excise duty most in mind, one to the Motability leasing charges, and one to the question of publishing the conclusions and assessment of
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      the annual review by the end of May. The Government amendments retain the first element and the substance of the third but leave out the second. I shall return to that omission.
      We are satisfied with the outcome on the points about tax and publishing the results of the review. We on the Conservative Benches feel that what has happened to disabled people as a result of the Government's proposals on vehicle excise duty and petrol tax is important. I reiterate for the sake of the House the simple figures that I used in Committee. On the assumption that the disabled person is driving 6,000 miles a year in a car that performs at the rate of 30 miles to the gallon, and that the increase in petrol tax is 20p per gallon, the Government's proposed change would cost a disabled per about £40 per year more. In the context of the income of a disabled person and the Motability allowance, that is a significant sum and one about which he is understandably cancerned.
      It was unfortunate that the change was proposed in the same month as disabled people began to get the benefit of the vehicle excise duty exemption. They undoubtedly felt that something that they had just been given was being immediately snatched away.
      It is unsatisfactory that there is little definite commitment that disabled people in receipt of mobility allowance will be compensated. The Minister tried to sound as sympathetic as possible, but the White Paper had no commitment to compensation. It said that compensation would be considered.
      On Second Reading we were told that it would be considered. When I questioned a Treasury Minister at Question Time last week, I was told that it was still to be considered. In effect, the Minister told us tonight that it is still to be considered. We are entitled to ask for a definite assurance not about the method by which it will be done but about the fact that disabled people will be compensated if the policy goes ahead and they lose sums of the order that I have mentioned.
      When the Under-Secretary was talking in Committee on 7 December, he gave the clear impression that discussions with organisations for the disabled were taking place and that they would have moved

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      along successfully by the time we reached the Report stage. That is at variance with what has been said today and with the remarks of the Minister of State, Treasury last week. It was stated tonight that no discussions had taken place. The Minister said that he had received some representations but that consultations had not yet begun. There is some confusion here. If consultations have not yet begun, why not? It is some time since the White Paper was published. The concern is well known. If in a couple of months' time a measure is to be moved in the Budget, it is high time that the consultations proceeded so that a result could be indicated.
      I am pleased that the Minister has accepted the substance of my amendment about publishing annually the assessment and conclusions reached on the review of mobility allowance. I take his point on removing the specific date which was in our amendment in Committee. Both I and my right hon. and hon. Friends are satisfied that we have achieved what we sought on the question of publication.
      I turn finally to the missing ingredient of Motability. I endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam) said. It would be difficult for my hon. Friends and me to resist the point that Motability is a non-statutory body and that there is some difficulty about writing it into the Bill in the form that I suggested.
      I do not insist too hard upon that, but I emphasise the importance of Motability leasing charges to the situation that concerns us all. We all know the background. After the introduction of the mobility allowance, which the Minister has rightly claimed to be a great advance in some respects, it appeared that it was not an advance at all for some people because they had vehicles and were in practice, whatever had been intended, to lose them because the vehicles were being withdrawn and they would not be able to afford a substitute vehicle out of the mobility allowance.
      10.45 p.m.
      The Motability scheme was devised as a means of overcoming that important problem. However much the House welcomed the mobility allowance concept, hon. Members would not have agreed to it if they had thought that a significant number
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      of people who already had vehicles would lose their mobility as a result of the introduction of the allowance. That is still happening and will continue unless Motability works as well as everyone hoped and intended. My hon. Friend the Member for Exeter has given the figures and reasons for supposing that there are still serious problems about its providing an adequate alternative to the old invalid trike for some people.
      It is a highly relevant factor to be taken into account, and even if it is not to be written into the Bill in the form that I proposed and the Committee accepted, we should like an assurance from the Minister that, in the general phrasing of the commitment being written into the Bill and the continued use of the phrase "other relevant factors". In his annual review of the mobility allowance the Minister will take into account the charges levied by Motability. That is all we ask. We accept the problem of writing that into low, but we emphasise the practical importance of the scheme and the need for Ministers to take it into account when considering the level of the mobility allowance in future.
      Mr. Alfred Morris: I well understand the position of the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam). He is a widely respected officer of the all-party disablement group in the House and he spoke with great sincerity. I know that his motive is further to improve the wellbeing of disabled people. I have said that we cannot legislate to cover Motability's leasing charges in the way that he wishes.
      The hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newton) asked for an assurance that we shall take into account changes in Motability's leasing charges. Clearly, Ministers will want to take all factors into account, but, given that Motability is a voluntary, independent organisation, we do not feel that we should legislate as has been suggested.
      The hon. Member for Braintree can derive a great deal of satisfaction from what he has achieved by his drafting. I hope that he will be drafting amendments to Government Bills for many years to come. He has shown great skill in doing so and I am sure that Government after Government will appreciate the help that he can give in using his skills in seeking to amend Government legislation.

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      As the hon. Gentleman said, the projected phasing out of the vehicle excise duty is an important matter for disabled people. They feel that the sweet of exemption may be snatched from their lips almost before they have got to know its taste.
      It has been nut to me by one disabled person after another that I must watch their interests in this matter very carefully. I have said tonight that I shall want to make absolutely certain that the interests of disabled people are well to the fore. The right hon. Member for Wan-stead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) appreciates that this is a matter for interdepartmental discussions. It is not just the Department of Health and Social Security. Other Departments are also involved. I have said that I will make a further statement as soon as possible.
      My hon. Friend referred in Committee to discussions that I was having with organisations of and for disabled people. He had no intention of misleading the Committee. I am in constant dialogue with representatives of organisations representing disabled people, as the hon. Member for Exeter and others will appreciate. I mentioned tonight the viewpoint of Peter Large. At the same time, I made it clear that the submission he has made to me is one which I found very helpful.
      Mr. Newton: I have no wish at all to pursue the Under-Secretary of State, because I am certain, knowing him, that he had no intention of misleading the Committee, but may we be quite clear about this? As I understand what the Minister is saying, there have so far been no discussions with representatives of disabled people about this policy. The Minister is simply saying that he regularly talks to them but there have not yet been consultations with disabled people about the White Paper on vehicle excise duty. Is that the position?
      Mr. Morris: What I am saying is that there have been no formal discussions specifically to deal with the phasing out of vehicle excise duty. My hon. Friend was well aware that I am day by day, not to say hour by hour, in discussion with representatives of disabled people. He knows that I have had a great many representations on this matter. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for appreciating
      368
      position. Everything said tonight by the hon. Member for Exeter and by the hon. Gentleman will be taken fully into account.
      Mr. Newton: The Minister has plainly tried to overwhelm me by flattery of my drafting, and he has gone some way to satisfy our anxieties, at least for the moment. We shall look forward to the further statement that he has promised and give it the keenest possible scrutiny when it arrives. With that assurance, that there will be a further statement reasonably soon, I beg to ask leave to withdraw—[Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newton) has been carried away by the flattery accorded him.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendment made: No. 4, in page 3, leave out lines 20 to 31.—[Mr. Deakins.]

    Schedule 1

      AMENDMENT OF PRINCIPAL ACT, PENSIONS ACT AND ACT OF 1977
      Mr. Deakins: I beg to move amendment No. 11, in page 13, line 1, leave out 'the said Schedule 1' and insert
      'Schedule 1 to the Pensions Act (deferred retirement)'.
      This is merely a drafting correction.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Schedule 2

      SCHEDULE INSERTED IN ACT OF 1976 IN SUBSTITUTION FOR SCHEDULE 4
      The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Stanley Orme): I beg to move amendment No. 12, in page 17, line 20, at end insert—
      '(2) Before assigning a clerk under this paragraph the Secretary of State shall, if one or more Senior Chairmen have been appointed under paragraph 11 below, consult him or such one of them as he considers appropriate.
      (3) The Secretary of State shall consider any representations made to him by a Senior Chairman as to the desirability of terminating the assignment of a clerk and shall take such action, if any, as he considers appropriate.'.
      I should like to draw the attention of the House to the debate that we had in

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      Committee on the operation of clerks in supplementary benefit appeals tribunals and the difficulties which arise on occasion. This issue was brought up by Conservative Members but very persuasive arguments were used on this matter by my hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth, Central (Mr. Tilley), ably aided, if I may say so, by my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Rodgers). It was felt that the fact that the clerks were appointed by the Secretary of State could, at times, lead to advice which was not satisfactory. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley instanced a particular tribunal, or at least complaints that he had received from his constituency, and not least from his local trades council. The arguments were supported by the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) and his hon. Friends.
      I undertook to consult my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor and to produce a memorandum for members of the Committee and for the House before Report. When I discussed this matter with the Lord Chancellor, he looked a little askance at the debate that the Committee had had and the problems which he and his Department would face if, for instance, the appointment of all the clerks were taken out of the control of the DHSS and put solely in his hands. However, he saw the strength of the argument for seeing that justice is not only done but is seen to be done.
      The proposal in the amendment is that the senior chairmen will interview the clerks and advise the Secretary of State before the clerks are assigned. The senior chairmen are appointed by the Lord Chancellor. The amendment further provides that if any representations are made about the unsatisfactory conduct of a clerk, the senior chairmen can make representations to the Secretary of State. I think that it is fairly obvious that if a senior chairman who is a legally qualified chairman were to make such representations, action would have to be taken.
      I emphasise that in no way is this a cosmetic exercise. Because of the memoranda that I have submitted, and the discussions that I have had with the Lord Chancellor, I hope the House will realise that a genuine attempt has been made to meet what we appreciate is a genuine
      370
      point. Therefore, I hope that the House will regard our present proposal as an exercise in an extension of democratic control. I hope, too, that it will be understood by people outside the House that what we are trying to do is to show that clerks who make representation or give points of guidance to the chairman and members of a tribunal in the vast majority of cases do so based on their knowledge and training within the Department, and that very seldom is advice given which is in any way misguided.
      But, of course, that could occur. Therefore, to see that justice is done, if a complaint is made against the clerk, it will now go to an independent person, as it were, who himself is appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and that person can assess the case.
      With that understanding, I hope that the House will accept the amendment.
      Mr. Anthony Grant: The House will be grateful to the Minister for going partially along the road that was sought in Committee. When the Committee discussed this matter very seriously, both sides of the Committee, as I recall it, were anxious that the Lord Chancellor should be given the power to appoint the clerks in this case.
      I think that the reasoning behind this was really twofold. The first reason as the Minister said, was the importance of justice not only being done but being seen to be done. I think that there was genuine anxiety that the Minister appeared to be judge, jury, prosecutor and appointer of officers of the court, which could be seen to be undesirable. Secondly, there was a feeling that the clerks are in positions of rather greater power and influence than is sometimes appreciated. It was felt important that the people appointed should not just be familiar with the minutae of social security but should have a sense of justice and realise the importance of their position, and that advice on that could better come from the Lord Chancellor and his Department than from the Secretary of State.
      11 p.m.
      These clerks are not without power. I take note of some of the things that they, can do. For example, they can advise on

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      procedural matters, take notes at the hearing, give all sorts of advice to the tribunal and make drafting suggestions. Indeed, we have seen the power of clerks in the magistrates' courts and elsewhere. Those of us who have had experience of this know that a strong clerk can influence a weak tribunal and, indeed, that a cantankerous and bigoted clerk, confronted with a cantankerous and bigoted tribunal, can put the whole system into considerable disarray. Therefore, it is important to get this right.
      I am grateful for small mercies and for the fact that the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Lord Chancellor, who I can well understand is a busy man and does not really want his Department saddled with this, has cooked up some sort of compromise. But I am bound to say that the drafting looks rather "furry". For instance, the Secretary of State must consult one or more of the senior chairmen. I hope that this will be taken seriously and that consultation means proper discussion, rather than saying "I propose to appoint Mr. X. I have hereby told you. I have consulted with you. Good afternoon".
      Likewise, sub-paragraph (3) says:
      "The Secretary of State shall consider any representations made to him by a Senior Chairman".
      That can mean everything or nothing. He can say "Yes, I have considered it", rather like the marvellous novels of Henry Cecil, in which a charming judge used to hear well-prepared applications by counsel and his reply was invariably "Yes, Mr. X. I have considered your application. It is refused". We do not want the Secretary of State to take that sort of attitude.
      At the end of that sub-paragraph there is a classic piece of parliamentary draftsmanship. It states that the Secretary of State
      "shall take such action, if any, as he considers appropriate".
      In other words, he can do anything or nothing, or neither or both, I suppose.
      We take this wording in the spirit in which it is given. I very much hope that the Secretary of State will appreciate the serious points that have been made about the quasi-judicial nature of the clerk and of the importance of getting the right sort
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      of person—someone who will have a sense of natural justice and who is conscious of his responsibilities. If that is the spirit behind the amendment, half a cake is better than no cake at all.
      Mr. Ronald Brown: I have listened patiently to what has been said in the debate. I am not a lawyer, and therefore I can speak as an honest man. I do not have the same favour towards the lawyers as my right hon. Friend the Minister seems to have.
      I listened to the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant), who is a lawyer. I am sure that he has put the case for the lawyers very well. He spoke about his anxiety over consulting the chairman. I should like to tell him a little story about chairmen. It began in September and concerns the chairman of one of the tribunals of the type described in the Bill. The case is still going on, and we are now approaching February. The chairman cannot be found. I understand that he is abroad on holiday somewhere. People cannot get hold of him to have the consultation. I want to get rid of him, never mind about the clerk.
      I say to my right hon. Friend that I see nothing in the proposals that will protect people going before his tribunals. While he is arguing about the quality of the clerk, I should like to argue much more about the quality of the chairman. Under paragraph 11, the Lord Chancellor, will
      "after consultation with the Lord Advocate, appoint persons who are barristers, advocates or solicitors of not less than 7 years' standing"
      I do not see why. I come from a working-class area. We have chaps available to do those jobs who are just as good as my hon. Friend's lawyers and lawyer friends.
      I was unable to appear on behalf of one of my constituents before one of one of my right hon. Friend's tribunals because I was delayed in going to the tribunal for two months. Apparently, it does not desire to sit in July or August, although some of us are quite happy to work through those months. The tribunal, purely to suit itself, chose a day in September that was not convenient for me, for parliamentary reasons.

      373
      Therefore, I took my constituent aside over the weekend and explained how she should state her case. I said that my right hon. Friend was a good man and that his tribunals were fair and just. I think that he has spoken of natural justice, of justice not only being done but being seen to be done. I told my constituent that my right hon. Friend believed in that and that she should have no fear.
      My constituent went to the tribunal on her own and the chairman, a Mr. Buckley, told her "I thought you were going to have your MP with you" She replied "Yes, Sir, but unfortunately on the day you have chosen he cannot be here because he is on parliamentary duty" The chairman said "Parliamentary duty ! Parliament is not even sitting." I do not know what he implied by that in that tribunal, which was public. The interpretation, certainly of those in the tribunal, was that I was telling a bit of a tale and had wilfully refused to represent my constituent. At the very moment when the chairman was making that obscene remark, I was on my feet in the European Parliament representing the interests of this country.
      My constituent asked to receive a piece of paper from the Department that was germane to the issue. That great chairman said "You cannot expect the Department to keep details of that sort. It must be on an envelope somewhere in the papers." He treated my constituent in a most abominable way. I raised the matter with the Lord Chancellor in September, and I am still waiting for an answer.
      I understand how carefully the provisions have been drafted. I have read them with great care, and I have heard the hon. Gentleman ask that the chairman, that great man, should be properly consulted and not simply be told.
      Mr. Orme: We are talking about a small number of senior chairmen who are legally qualified. There are only a few senior chairmen. The type of chairman of whom my hon. Friend is speaking is a chairman also appointed by the Lord Chancellor but not necessarily legally qualified. He is not the chairman who will be consulted about the clerks.
      Mr. Brown: I am very pleased to hear that. I had an awful feeling that he was
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      legally qualified and might be one of the candidates to give the advice. I can only tell my right hon. Friend that in his legislation, both in what he proposes and in the existing legislation, he is placing a great deal of dependence on the lawyers. My experience of them is that they are not very good. They do not really understand what is going on.
      It seems that those who are selected to become members of the tribunals will include those who understand the nature of the area
      "to which the panel relates".
      I do not know from where the chairmen from Hackney are to be picked. In private conversation, it will be interesting to know the names that have been received of those who live in Hackney, know the area and understand it. There is experience in Hackney of attending tribunals only to find that the members do not understand very much.
      I entered the Chamber with the intention of not supporting the Government if a Division took place, but my right hon. and hon. Friends seem to understand what I am saying. I shall be persuaded to vote for the Government should that be necessary. However, I urge my right hon. Friend to appoint those who understand the problems and who will not treat appellants in the disgraceful and disgusting manner that was met by my constituent.
      Mr. John Tilley: Unlike my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown), I welcome the amendment. It stems from the concern that was expressed on both sides in Committee and by many outside organisations long before the Bill was produced. There has been the fear that there may be a tendency for clerks to support the view of the DHSS, the Department being their direct and sole employer. There is the fear that that will be the tendency whatever the regulations, advice and suggestions to the contrary from the Department. It was suggested that the Lord Chancellor should employ the clerks as a means of overcoming the problem.
      The Government's proposal, which is ingenious, is to give oversight of the clerks to the new element, the senior chairmen. That new element will have oversight of the standard of the ordinary

      375
      chairman, the standard that is so concerning my hon. Friend. I hope that he is reassured.
      We must ask the Minister to state more clearly—he has already done so to members of the Committee and it would be useful if he put it on the public record—that it will be the specific duty of senior chairmen both to inspect the clerks before they take up their posts and to keep an eye on them while they carry out their duties. That will be their duty, as well as undertaking all the other aspects of the tribunal system that will be their responsibility and for which the post of senior chairman is being introduced.
      It will be useful to receive the assurance that the senior chairmen will have an obligation to consider any representations about the conduct of clerks that are made by any interested party, be it an MP, a local councillor, a claimant or groups that feel that they have the interests of claimants at heart. That would reassure many groups, such as the Child Poverty Action Group, that have on many occasions tried to help claimants but have felt that their concern about certain clerks could not be expressed anywhere in a way that would be properly pursued.
      Mr. Ronald Brown: How do we get rid of an unsatisfactory chairman? I assure my hon. Friend that that is a job on its own. There is nothing in the Bill that helps in that respect.
      Mr. Tilley: I shall leave the answering of my hon. Friend to the Minister.
      The remarks that we have made in Committee and in the House should not be regarded as an attack on committee clerks in general. The majority of them carry out their work extremely well. Nor should our remarks be considered an attack on the social security establishment in general. The counter clerks are at the front line in the same way as the tribunal clerks. They are overworked and have to face the consequences over the social security office counter of policy decisions taken in this House.
      The hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) implied that the wording of the provision was a little furry. That is why we require reassurance. The Minister said that the provisions were not cosmetic. I am sure that that will be the case, provided that everybody
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      involved—including not only senior chairmen but claimants and those who try to represent them—take the matter seriously.
      I have a sneaking suspicion that the amendment will, if properly exercised, achieve the objective which we sought in Committee.
      11.15 p.m.
      Mr. Orme: I wish to assure my hon. Friend that this provision will place on the Secretary of State a duty to consult the appropriate senior chairman before assigning a person to act as a tribunal clerk and to consider any representations from a senior chairman that an assignment should be terminated.
      Senior chairmen, who are to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor after consultation with the Lord Advocate, will be in frequent contact with tribunal clerks in their areas and will be in a position to observe them in action. They will also be involved in investigating complaints. I hope that complaints are few. I trust that any complaints that are made are responsible, because we are talking about people's careers. Therefore, this is not a matter to be taken lightly.
      As a further measure to try to establish the impartiality of tribunal clerks, each one will be required to attend a training course approved by the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Advocate. The courses will be designed by the advisory group which produced the procedural guide to supplementary benefit appeal tribunals. It has already arranged training for chairmen, and it has now embarked on the training of tribunal members. The first pilot course for members takes place this weekend.
      We are as concerned about the quality and standard of chairmen as we are about the standard and quality of tribunal members. We are always looking for suitable people. We have consulted organisations such as the TUC about their representatives and about training. We want to see more lay chairmen appointed wherever that is possible, and we are concerned about the standard of the tribunals. If the tribunal is of a proper standard, it should not be possible for a clerk to abuse his position.
      I hope the House accepts that we have now taken positive steps. This proposal goes far beyond the cobbling

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      together suggested by the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant). We have gone a considerable way in consultation, in open government, in providing memoranda and in canvassing the Lord Chancellor's views. I hope that this will lead to the better conduct of tribunals in future.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Schedule 3

      MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS
      Amendments made: No. 13, in page 19, leave out line 18 and insert—
      '8. In section 119 of the principal Act—

      (a) in subsection (3)(b), there are inserted at the end the words "or out of a requirement to repay any amount by virtue of subsection (2A) above";

      (b) in subsection (4)—'.

      No. 14, in page 20, line 33, at end insert—
      '18A. In section 59(7) of the Pensions Act, after the words "this section"(in the two places where they occur after the definition of "the sum") there are inserted in each case the words "and section 59A of this Act".'.
      No. 15, in page 21, line 27, at end insert—
      THE EMPLOYMENT PROTECTION (CONSOLIDATION) ACT 1978 (c. 44)
      26A. In section 132 of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978—

      (a) in subsection (3)(e) for the words "and (3)" there are substituted the words "to (4)"; and

      (b) in subsection 4(a) for the words "and (2)"there are substituted the words"(2) and (2A)".'.—[Mr. Orme.]

      Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
      11.21 p.m.
      Mr. Tony Durant: I do not wish to delay the House but I must raise a question, under clause 10, about public service pensions. We have all received letters about the uprating of this pension. I declare an interest as one who is involved in this matter. The missing 11 days are mentioned in a letter from Mr. Maxwell of the Public Service Pensioners' Council. I require an assurance that there was proper consultation on this issue.
      378
      Mr. Maxwell says:
      "It is accepted by the Council that the changes from those which would have applied under the Social Security Act, 1975 would be an improvement but the changes do not honour the assurance which was given during discussions in 1977 with the two Ministers that no public service pensioners would be disadvantaged by the new arrangement for their pensions to be index-linked under the new Social Security Pension Scheme.
      The wording of Clause 10 of the Bill, although an improvement on the present legislation (Social Security Pensions Act 1975, Clause 59) does not give complete effect to this assurance by the Ministers.
      The Council disputes the contention of the Under Secretary of State that the earlier date (12 November 1979 instead of 1 December 1979) would compensate for the loss of 11 days pensions increase. There was no prior consultation with the Council, representing one and a quarter million public service pensioners. …
      After I had dictated this letter I received a letter dated 18 January from Mr. Charles Morris that there would not appear to be any useful purpose served by a further meeting"
      I am concerned about this matter. Many of these pensioners feel aggrieved. I agree that the sums involved are not large. We accepted that in Committee. But the pensioners feel that there was no proper consultation. The Government said that there would be no loss as a result of changing the date. This matter was discussed in Committee and the Minister took note of what was said. We must be ensured that there was proper consultation.
      11.24 p.m.
      Mr. George Rodgers: I identify myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. Durant). Many hon. Members have received correspondence on this issue. There seems to be a contradiction. It is claimed that consultations did not take place. I am not sure how we should define the word "consultations". The question of pensions was raised during consultations, but I am not sure that conclusions were reached. Those involved feel aggrieved and are concerned about the impact of the legislation.
      I am pleased that the subject has been raised, and I should be grateful for the Minister's comments.
      11.25 p.m.
      Mrs. Chalker: This is a useful Bill. The Minister described it as making running repairs to existing legislation, in addition to making certain specified

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      amendments dealing with attendance and mobility allowances and supplementary benefit appeals tribunals.
      We accept, however, that at some stage not far ahead the Bill will have to be consolidated with the earlier legislation. It is no surprise to anyone dealing with this sort of legislation that one's brief case gets heavier and heavier as the days of debate go by. There is more and more backtracking into previous legislation, and with that the opportuniity for error grows. I have spoken before of the need to make our legislation clearer to understand both by parliamentarians and those who have to work with it, not least the counter clerks and many of the employees of the DHSS.
      We well understand that at present it is not possible to take further steps, but I hope that all hon. Members will look at the way in which the invalid care allowance, which is not currently awarded to women whose husbands are severely disabled, is now seen as discriminating not just against women but against the family. That is one of the issues we might have seen in an amending Bill of this nature but which is sadly absent. That must be seen in the context of the fact that an overhaul of all benefits from the Supplementary Benefits Commission is under way with the reviews that are now being made. There is now open discussion about disablement costs and about how, for many years ahead, the Government can best provide for those who do not have the able-bodied or able-minded capacity to deal with the rigours of daily life.
      Every hon. Member tries to ensure that attendance allowance goes to those who need it. But I have become aware that some people, including general practitioners, are not as familiar with the rules of attendance allowance as is desirable. It is in the hands of the DHSS to communicate to the general practitioner committees the simple rules about eligibility for attendance allowance and the means of applying for it. That is a further step of clarification and assistance that could be taken for those who qualify for the allowance.
      There is a further publicity job to be done—on the mobility allowance. There is already some misunderstanding about the eligibility of women up to the age of 65 or 66. Until June this year, the age
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      limit on phased-in eligibility for mobility allowance is 58. After that date men and women aged 59 and 60 will become eligible for phasing in. Many people think that with the passing of the Bill, which removes the discrimination between men and women in terms of age, women aged between 60 and 65 will become eligible for mobility allowance. But I believe that that will not be so under the Government's phasing-in regulations. That must be made clear through publicity.
      We have heard much tonight about the taxation changes affecting motoring. Mobility has been regarded as the substitute for healthy legs. I hope that one day not too far away our economy will so improve that we can make sure that there is no taxation on legs. These people need their mobility allowance because that is their only means of getting from A to B.
      We welcome what the Minister said tonight about supplementary benefit appeals tribunals, and we welcome the amendment. I shall go no further into it than saying that I think a sensible compromise has been arrived at. I believe that both sides can be pleased with the work that they have done on this matter in the House.
      When we talk of the numbers receiving supplementary benefit, our long-term objective must surely be to look further ahead to the stage when we can reduce considerably the numbers of those who are dependent upon means-tested benefits.
      We have gone a long way in the Bill to tidy up odd ends. We know that there will be more to do in the months ahead. But none of this happens without co-operation, which I think has fairly been noted on the Bill, between the Government and the Opposition and all my colleagues in the House and help from all those officials who serve us in Committee and provide us with useful notes for use both in Committee and on Report. In agreeing to the Third Reading, I think that we should pay tribute to those who keep us well briefed on complicated Bills such as this.
      11.31 p.m.
      Mr. Orme: We think that the Bill is important and that it contains several advantageous measures for dealing with the disabled. It also saves public expenditure. One aspect is the public service

      381
      pension, in which we all have to declare an interest because, as Members of Parliament, we are covered by it. We must ensure that the public realise that this is dealt with in a correct manner.
      The hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. Durant) asked about consultation. Knowing that the 1975 Act would alter the situation, consultation on this matter began on 21st September 1977 with the Public Service Pensioners' Council and with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Civil Service Department. Consultations continued well into July of last year, and beyond. We have taken on board the representations that have been made but we feel obliged to say, in the terms that I have given to the House, that we must go ahead in the manner which we propose.
      At the eleventh hour we received this letter from the Public Service Pensioners' Council, which is addressed to all Members of Parliament. It does not alter the fact that I think that the manner in which we have acted is correct, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has sent a detailed reply to hon Members. I think that if the hon. Member for Reading, North examines that reply he will see that it stands up to examination and that in this matter we have to say that the Government have acted correctly.
      Mr. Newton: I should like formally to place on record my gratitude to the Under-Secretary of State for the prompt reply that he gave. Inevitably, I have not been able to study every word of the letter with the detail that I should like, but it puts on record the points that the right hon. Gentleman has just made.
      Mr. Orme: If hon. Members want to come back on this matter and raise the issues again, perhaps when the hon. Gentleman has studied the letter we shall listen to further representations.
      My experience in this Department leads me to believe that, just as the Treasury must have a new Finance Bill every year, so it will be essential for our Department to have a Bill to deal with past and perhaps future measures. I make no apology, therefore, for bringing the Bill before the House, and I thank the House for its co-operation this evening.
      11.35 p.m.
      Mr. Andrew Bowden: I shall detain the House only briefly. I did not have the privilege of serving on the Committee, but I should like to refer for a few minutes to clause 12. I thank those hon. Members on both sides who introduced a new clause into the Bill which brought into the limelight the question of a death grant. The Under-Secretary of State said in Committee that, for the reasons that he had given, the intention was that the death grant should not be increased as a result of the clause. Accepting that that is the case, I am particularly pleased that the Government have not seen fit to alter the clause at this stage.
      As Ministers will know, there is a strong feeling in the country, going across party lines and supported by the all-party parliamentary group—I apologise for the absense of the joint chairman, the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Latham), who would have liked to be with us but was unable to attend—that increasing the death grant should be given priority. We had a meeting with voluntary organisations, and the feeling is one that is gaining ground all the time.
      Age Concern, in its national policy, calls for an immediate increase in the death grant so that it reflects its value at the time of its introduction in 1949. During the debate in Committee it emerged that some people do not receive the death grant at all. About 1,100,000 people receive only half the grant. In congratulating the Government on accepting the new clause, I should like to conclude with the words of the late Brian O'Malley, who, when replying to a debate in the House in 1974, said:
      "It is my firm view, and I am sure the view of the Government, that death grants are an urgent priority."[Official Report, 10 April 1974; Vol. 872, c. 582.]
      I ask the Minister to bear that in mind.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Alan Beith be appointed a member of the House of Commons Commission under the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978.—[Mr. Snape.]

  M1 MOTORWAY(HERTFORDSHIRE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Snape.]
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Dodsworth: The Minister will recollect that among the many Adjournment debates of this type which he has had to answer, there was a debate on 12th May 1978 on the subject of the M1, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Madel). My hon. Friend pointed out that it was a particularly appropriate date because, being Friday, at about four o'clock, the volume of traffic on the M1 at that time would draw attention to the urgent need for improvements to that section of the motorway to which he was referring.
  It seems particularly appropriate today that we should have had a different sort of illustration. An industrial dispute has meant an additional burden of traffic on motorways. I understand that there have been 20-mile tail-backs on some of the motorways tonight. This morning there were 8-mile tail-backs on the M1. It is a matter of deep concern, and I am sensitive of the need to get on with the work on the M1.
  I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that in my constituency there are a wide range of motorway matters and proposals which might be termed to have a motorway definition. There are pressures for the early completion of the M25 from Maple Cross, which is familiar to the Minister. He will be aware that there is widespread support for the early completion of the road. There is, as is usually the case, a divergence of views on the optimum route to be chosen, so the possibility of inquiry proceedings in that case cannot be overlooked. On the section of the M25 to be completed between Micklefield Green and South Mimms, which will cross the Ml, a number of alternative routes have been suggested. There has been a wide range of discussions and consultations over an extended period, and the Department's preferred route has been made known.
  In this case, however, there are differing views, there are some differences of substance between one route and another,
  384
  and there are widely held reservations about the need for the construction of this motorway at all. It is against that background that I wish to draw attention to the nature of the decision that was taken with regard to widening the M1 in Hertfordshire, and in particular as it affects my constituency.
  The nature and conduct of proceedings are such that they have caused considerable misgivings among my constituents. I drew the Under-Secretary of State's attention to that in a letter that I wrote to him on 8 November, in which I pointed out that the view had been taken that, in the case of the M1 widening, the inspector's report had been thrown to one side purely for the purposes of administrative convenience and that this could only create further difficulties at any future public inquiry which might be held in the area of my constituency.
  In contradistinction to that, I have great respect for both the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State in the conduct of road matters in my constituency in particular and, I am sure, in the country in general. I feel that they have on all occasions sought to discharge their duties both diligently and in the interests of the community at large.
  I do not think that anyone can really deny the need to improve and, indeed, widen the M1 between junctions five and eight in Hertfordshire. I think that it is no exaggeration that millions of motorists will testify to the present inadequacies of the roads there, and commuters who regularly use that route are finding it a cause of increasing frustration and concern. I think that it is common ground, between both the Minister and myself and both sides of the House, that action has to be taken.
  In the debate in May 1978 there was a careful review of some of the alternative proposals that might be taken on a short-term basis, and the Minister gave reasons why they had to be projected. He outlined the public inquiry position. We accept that there is a major traffic bottleneck at all times of the year, and it is no part of my case that the work should not proceed. My complaint is more at the manner and nature of the decision than at the need itself.
  After all, the scheme now, at 1976 prices, will cost nearly 20 per cent. more

  385
  than the original proposal. It will involve the construction of a second three-lane carriageway adjacent to the existing route but it will omit the proposals for the new interchanges at Beachtrees, Breakspeare and Waterdale junctions.
  The report of the inspector on the 1976 public inquiry did not think that the original order should be confirmed. He agreed that there should be a second carriageway, but he did not agree with some of the details. The Department is now saying that it cannot abandon the original scheme because that would mean two more years' delay to overcome what was admittedly a mistake in the early planning of the motorway. It is to go ahead without any further public inquiry.
  This conclusion means that three of the four principal conclusions reached by the inspector are being dismissed. The inspector agreed that there should be online widening for part of the route. However, the Minister feels that, because of the difficulties of traffic diversions, he can overrule that finding. He accepts, and it is clear, that the on-line solution would have had environmental advantages, but those advantages are apparently too limited when taken in the light of any delay that might follow any further inquiries.
  The Minister has rejected that the proposed Waterdale roundabout should be built further east where the orbital road will cross the A405, and has also rejected the proposal for the acquisition of land and earthworks to be made ready when the north orbital road opens.
  The Minister's argument is on the grounds of expediency and urgency. But there has been more than two and a half years' delay since the inquiry. The start date has also been brought forward, so this becomes even more urgent. This seems to be riding roughshod over the information given to those who attended the inquiry so assiduously.
  The on-line widening proposals would have saved land and houses. I am not at all sure that there would have been any further delay, because no new orders would have been required and there would not necessarily have been a public inquiry in the light of what the Minister has now proposed. Sensible proposals have been discounted on the ground that they would have caused undue delay. The scheme still appears to be incomplete,
  386
  in that the proposals on the Waterdale junction will have to be published in due course.
  The objectors feel anger and frustration at the inflexible attitude of the Department. It is a poor example of democracy when objectors who have pressed their cases entirely through proper channels can feel that they have achieved less in six years of reasoned argument than others can achieve in other parts of the country by six hours of disruptive tactics. It is six years since the proposals were first published, of which five have been spent in inactivity and silence following the public inquiries. Only one year was spent on the public inquiries themselves and each inspector completed his report in the month following the inquiry.
  I hope that the Department will look at the changes needed in procedure following the outcome of this inquiry, first on information and secondly on cost. The procedure is outlined in pages 13 and 14 of the report on the review of highway inquiry procedures.
  There are two changes that are called for in awarding costs. Where there have been responsible associations and parish councils they should be able to claim costs, and these should be awarded where the Secretary of State has chosen to override the inspector's report after he has recommended that the order should not be made.
  Secondly, on information, we must consider the case where the Minister has made available to him additional information after he has considered the inspector's recommendation. The ability of road construction units and road planners at the Department of Trade to be able to present further information to influence a decision after the inspector's report appears to be questionable. It is a one-way advantage providing no opportunity for response by objectors. It amounts to working on the inspector's report with the Minister in order to go back to the original proposal. That requires further investigation. I have written to the Minister to say that a detailed refutation of the accepted case when it has been rejected is called for. Although I accept that there was a helpful and constructive answer by the Minister giving grounds, we need a much fuller statement of his reasons for the rejection.

  387
  The Minister will recall that I asked him on 21st November if he would let me know the number of times in each of the past five years when inspectors' reports on public inquiries into road schemes had been overruled and if he would outline the criteria which are used in such situations. The hon. Gentleman was kind enough to advise me on 12 January that he had not overlooked the matter and that he hoped to be able to let me have the infomation before very long. I think that perhaps the hon. Gentleman is being a little reticent on some of these matters and I hope that he can get complete information by consulting his regional offices. I know that a number of organisations are deeply interested in the replies to this question.
  My constituents are in no way wishing to stand in the way of progress. They are sensitive to the interests of the public at large in the use of this country's principal motorway. However, this is a classic situation of the suppression of a minority view in the interests of the majority.
  The House has laid down procedures in the interests of those minorities. They seek to ensure that minority interests are fully investigated and made known. They seek also to provide an impartial means of judging those objections and representations so that recommendations can be made to the Minister, drawn up with due regard to the highest professional standards and the latest information. In this case these procedures have been scrupulously observed.
  The Department has had two and a half years after each inquiry to digest the information and those recommendations, and has then seen fit to reject the findings of its own inspector.
  My constituents had the gravest reservations at one stage as to the impartiality of the inspector appointed, but having overcome those reservations they have been dumbfounded to find that a scrupulously professional approach has been thrown to one side by the Minister on the ground that it would all take too long. I trust that the lessons of this unhappy series of inquiries will be learnt.
  I must advise the Minister that I have put all my constituents on notice that in public inquiries in connection with my constituency they should record all the proceedings in detail and leave no stone unturned to protect their interests. I say
  388
  that after careful reflection and with real regret in view of the very high regard that I have held for the integrity and fair-minded approach of the Minister on many of these matters in the past.
  11.50 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. John Horam): I know that this issue has been a matter of great concern to the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Dodsworth) and I pay tribute to the way in which he has pursued this and other motorway matters on behalf of his constituents. I am glad to have the opportunity to set out clearly the Government's view on the widening of the bottom end of the M1. In addition, I wish to express my understanding of the feelings of the people directly concerned. I feel for them very much.
  It is common ground, as the hon. Gentleman admitted, that there is an urgent need to improve the six-mile section of the M1 between junctions five and eight—the notorious two-lane section. It is greatly overloaded, especially at peak times, and carries a high proportion of heavy lorries. Driving on it can be unpleasant, not just in weather conditions such as we have had today, with the additional problem of a lack of railway services, but in any rush-hour period. There is general recognition that this section was one of the mistakes of early motorway planning.
  There is an urgent need for something to be done, and proposals for widening have been around for a long time. The first inquiry into the Department's proposals began in 1973. The proposals were subsequently changed and the inquiry was reopened in 1976, bringing forward the proposals that we are now discussing.
  At the reopened inquiry the need for widening the M1 was not seriously questioned, but the method of widening was. The Bucknalls Lane residents' group, supported by the hon. Gentleman, the National Farmers' Union, the St. Stephen's parish council and the Brickett Wood ratepayers' association argued that the widening should be achieved by the on-line method, as opposed to widening by the building of a new motorway to the east of the M1. They said that on-line widening would require less land, would save four houses in Bucknalls Lane and would cause less environmental damage.

  389
  The group also objected to some of the junction proposals.
  The inspector concluded that this section of the M1 was overloaded, that it was the scene of considerable congestion and much delay and that it ought to be widened. He agreed that the road ought to be widened initially to dual three lanes and that there should be provision for a fourth lane between Breakspeare and the proposed junction with the M25. He concluded that on-line widening should take place through the existing bridge and alongside the retaining wall to Bucknalls Lane and that the resultant lack of hard shoulder and somewhat substandard clearances should be accepted. Finally, he was also generally opposed to the Department's views on junctions.
  Because the inspector disagreed with some of the major details of the scheme, although he accepted the need for widening, he recommended that none of the orders before the inquiry should be made. The Secretaries of State decided, however, that the scheme should go ahead. It was urgently needed and had been much delayed already. They accepted the inspector's conclusions about the proposed junctions but decided that they should proceed with the published proposals for a new southbound carriageway at Bucknalls Lane.
  Let me deal first with the situation at Bucknalls Lane. As I told the hon. Gentleman in my letter of 12 January, I am sorry that the Bucknalls Lane residents' group is so dissatisfied with the decision. But I can readily understand their disappointment that we were not able to accept the suggestion about online widening at that point in the road. The reasons for that were quite clear and were brought out fully at the public inquiry.
  First, the addition of a third lane to the existing two in the Bucknalls Lane area would lead to enormous dislocation during construction. It would mean building on the existing motorway a new motorway, and at the moment the motorway, as we know, is only two lanes in each direction. It would lead to considerable bottlenecks for a prolonged period if we were to adopt this method of construction—that is to say, on the existing motorway rather than alongside it. Traffic on the Ml, already heavily
  390
  overloaded, would have to be diverted on to the local road system, causing intolerable congestion on those roads and protracted delays to all traffic.
  Secondly, at the end of the day the new motorway would have inadequacies, such as the absence of hard shoulders and substandard clearances, which, with the very high volumes of traffic involved—some 30,000 vehicles a day on each carriageway—would have serious disadvantages, particularly during periods of inevitable maintenance. It would be extremely difficult to keep this very important part of our motorway system functioning adequately when repairs had to be undertaken.
  I very much regret that the decision will mean that three houses, one of which the Department already owns, will have to be demolished. No. 90 Bucknalls Lane can be saved, although part of the garden will be required for the works. I entirely appreciate the distress and disturbance caused to those who have to leave their homes. But, much as I sympathise, this great disadvantage has to be balanced against the benefits to the thousands of users of the existing road and of those who would be affected by the diversions. I am satisfied that in this case the decision reflects a proper view of inevitably conflicting considerations.
  Officers of the Department have called on the families affected, and they will do everything within their power to make the move as smooth as possible. It is, I am afraid, the old story of a general good balanced against severe disadvantage to a small group of people. But, as the hon. Gentleman said, he knows the pressure that there has been for some improvement in this section of the M1 and the delay that there has been in bringing it about. Decisions had to take that into account as well as other factors.
  The hon. Gentleman further suggested that there should be a reopening of the inquiry and made several points about officers looking at new facts. I do not believe that there are any grounds for referring the proposals back to objectors or for reopening the inquiry. The procedure rules require that statutory objectors who appear be given the opportunity of making written representations where the Secretaries of State disagree with the inspector's recommendation if they differ on a finding of fact or if they have

  391
  taken into consideration new evidence or a new issue of fact which was not raised at the inquiry.
  Mr. Dodsworth: The Minister will recall that in the statement that was issued by the Department on 2 November paragraph 3.4 says:
  "The Secretary of State decided to give interested persons a further opportunity to make representations before he made his decision. As a result of further traffic studies and representations made it was decided to revise the proposals and reopen the public inquiries."
  What is the point of going through all that process when we have gone back to where we started and the further representations were of no value whatsoever?
  Mr. Horam: My point is that we are prepared to look at any new facts which are brought to our attention, but in this case the Secretaries of State did not make that decision on any new facts which were brought out or on any new evidence. They made their decision on a difference of view about the relative merits of the alternative schemes put forward—the suggestions of the inspector and the original proposals which they themselves put forward. It was not, therefore, a matter of difference in facts. It was a matter of a disagreement about the relative merits and the balance of advantage between the two alternative proposals.
  That is why, where there are new facts to be brought out, we are always prepared—indeed, there is a statutory right—for the objectors to ask for the inquiry to be reopened. But in this case there are no new facts as such. The facts in this problem have always been the same. It is simply a difference of view as to the alternative strategies put forward.
  I think that the most serious point in the hon. Gentleman's presentation is when he says that we have thrown the inspector's report to one side purely for administrative convenience, that the decision will make for further difficulties at public inquiries in his area and that some cynicism about public inquiries is justified as a result of our behaviour in this particular case.
  As the letter of 2 November conveying the decision of the Secretaries of State explained, the problem before us was a difficult one. The inspector accepted that this section of M1 is overloaded
  392
  and should be widened, and we were aware that there is widespread support for the early improvement of this unsatisfactory and unpleasant stretch of road, as I have already said. But acceptance of the inspector's recommendations in full would have added at least a further two years' delay to what has already been a much delayed improvement. It would prolong the uncertainly of all those who live near this section of the motorway and have been wondering what effect the proposed improvement will have on them. New orders would have had to be published and they, in turn, would be subject to the normal statutory procedures. If they were considered concurrently with the proposals for the M25 between Micklefield Green and South Mimms, for example, the delay could be considerable.
  We did, therefore—and I ask the hon. Gentleman and residents of Bucknalls Lane and others concerned to believe this—seek a solution which would follow the spirit of the inspector's report as far as possible, while meeting the urgent need for a widening which the hon. Gentleman himself recognised.
  That was the fundamental approach that we adopted, and I believe that we have succeeded. After all, we have accepted a number of the inspector's points, particularly as regards junctions, and so forth, but we felt that to have accepted all his findings would have led to unacceptable delay, which we could not really tolerate in the national interest of having a solution to this particularly difficult problem. It is a problem which is known to all hon. Members at the bottom end of the M1. Indeed, it is almost a nationally notorious problem.
  Finally, the hon. Member has written to me, as he said, requesting information about the number of times the Secretaries of State have gone against recommendations made by inspectors. It has taken a little time to assemble all the evidence, because I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would have wanted me to go back over a number of years and to deal with all parts of the country. This has meant quite a lot of work. However, I now have the information, which I shall send to the hon. Gentleman, as I promised—probably tomorrow.
  As to the number of occasions on which the inspector's main recommendation was contrary to the Department's proposal and

  393
  the inspector's recommendation was not accepted by the Secretary of State, this did not happen in 1977 or in 1978—among decisions already reached so far. Some inquiries held in 1977 and 1978 have not yet had final decisions taken on them. In 1976, when this inquiry took place, it happened in only one case—the case about which we are having this Adjournment debate—and that was one case out of 20.
  In the year before that, 1975, there were no such examples. All 24 cases did not fall into this category where the main recommendation was contested by the inspector and the Secretary of State then refused to accept the inspector's proposals. It happened only twice out of 38 inquiries in 1974.
  Therefore, the hon. Member can see that it is very much the exception that the Secretaries of State do not accept the recommendation by the inspector when it goes against their original proposal.
  From what he has said, I am sure the hon. Gentleman can see that in this case we felt that the circumstances of this problem were so unique that we had to take them into account. As the hon.
  394
  Gentleman said repeatedly throughout his speech, this is a notorious problem. We felt that further delay, after an inquiry had begun in 1973—we are now delivering the verdict of an inquiry as it happened at the end of 1978—would be an incredibly long time, and that to have pushed this into further years would not have been acceptable in the national interest.
  Of course, I understand the feelings of the people in Bucknalls Lane and those who are directly affected. But, on the balance of interest, most objective observers would understand why we came down in the way that we did. Now that we have made that decision, we shall do all that we can to meet the legitimate concerns of the people directly affected. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall follow that up as sensitively and carefully as we can. If there are any problems in that particular regard and the hon. Gentleman cares to bring them to me, I shall give them personal attention.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at six minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Bradford.

COAL INDUSTRY: CONSULTATIVE MACHINERY
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, on behalf of the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, who is unable to be present, partly because of the inclemency of the weather and partly because of the certainty of our railway situation, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any plans to develop their tripartite consultative machinery with the National Coal Board and National Union of Mineworkers so as to ensure its continued effectiveness throughout the period of the industry's necessary service of the nation's energy requirements when oil supplies from the United Kingdom Continental Shelf decline.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the Government regard the tripartite machinery as a most useful—indeed, an essential —feature of its relations with the coal industry. There are no present plans for any particular developments in the constitution or functions of the tripartite machinery, which so far have proved flexible enough to deal with a considerable variety of matters. For example, the Research and Development Working Party published a report in May, 1978, which has led to important new Government commitments, and currently a newly formed sub-committee is studying the prospects and problems of the South Wales coalfield.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, on behalf of the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, I wish to thank my noble
1320
friend for his Answer. I think that the noble Earl would wish to put the further question to my noble friend as to whether the Government—and I think that he would also direct the question towards the Opposition—intend to keep the tripartite machinery in operation. The noble Earl feels strongly that it is vital for the future of the coal industry in this country, and indeed the energy situation, that there should be agreement on this matter. May I ask my noble friend whether he would confirm that, so far as the Government are concerned, it is their intention to see that the tripartite machinery remains as a vital part of the machinery of coal policy? I hope that the Front Bench opposite will not disagree.
Lord STRABOLGI: Yes, certainly, my Lords; I am glad to confirm that. Since the original inception of the tripartite machinery, all strategic plans have been matters for discussion in the tripartite group.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that there has been, so far, a splendid example of tripartite machinery from the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, and the Government operating on my noble friend's Question?

COAL AND NUCLEAR POWER: INVESTMENT
2.41 p.m.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the split in the national investment for development between the coal and the nuclear power industries.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, in 1977–78 expenditure on coal research and development by the National Coal Board, the British Gas Corporation and the Government was some £34 million, and that on nuclear research and development by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority was £105 million. In addition, the electricity supply industry spent some £19 million on research and development

1321
related to nuclear power, and about £9 million on research and development related to fossil fuel burn.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. May I ask him whether the money which is being spent nationally on coal comes from the Government or from the National Coal Board? Will he agree that the money spent on nuclear energy comes directly from the Government, and will he confirm that the Government's contribution is minimal with regard to the research and development in the coal industry?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, expenditure on coal research and development comprised expenditure by the National Coal Board of £26·9 million of which £4·3 million was financed by the European Coal and Steel Community. There was expenditure by the British Gas Corporation of £2·6 million, a Department of Energy contribution of £2 million to joint projects under the International Energy Agency, and there was also smaller expenditure on research for health. With regard to the second part of the question, the electricity supply industry already make a contribution to nuclear development. They also bear five-sixths of the cost of operating Windscale.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord has yet had a chance to study the report of the IIED, and the article by one of the co-authors, Mr. Gerald Leach, in the New Scientist of 11th January, showing that between now and the end of the century only a very small fraction of the nuclear capacity postulated by the Department of Energy is required, and that therefore some £20,000 million to £30,000 million of unnecessary expenditure on R and D could be saved and put into conservation. Is this not a matter of fundamental importance to the future energy R and D policy in this country, and will the noble Lord be ready with a reply about it when we have the debate tomorrow?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I do not think that it is possible to draw a conclusion between coal and nuclear power, since the two industries are so very different. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question, the
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£105 million of expenditure covered work on gas cooled reactors, water moderated reactors, the fast reactor and fusion and also included £20 million of expenditure on nuclear safety and the environment, as the noble Lord, I am sure, will be glad to hear.
Lord DERWENT: My Lords, in view of what has happened so far this afternoon, would it not have been more suitable and friendly if the noble Lord had asked some noble Lord on this side of the House to ask his Question for him?
Lord TANLAW: My Lords, can the noble Lord give an indication of what proportion of the funds which he has mentioned as having been spent on nuclear research has been spent on the nuclear process of gasification of coal?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I cannot, I am afraid, because the British Gas Corporation have decided to finance in total the design study of what is known as the composite gasifier. The Government will consider their position when the results of the design study are available.
Lord TANLAW: My Lords, is the Minister able to say whether the Atomic Energy Authority are able to give any further advice on this process?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am not able to do so without notice, but I expect that that is so.

FORD PAY SETTLEMENT: GOVERNMENT SANCTIONS
2.46 p.m.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what measures were applied against the Ford Motor Company in respect of its alleged breach of the Government's pay guidelines; whether those measures have now been withdrawn; for how long they operated; whether any increase in public expenditure resulted from these measures; and what damage the Government think they did to the company.
The MINISTER of STATE, PRIVY COUNCIL OFFICE (Baroness Birk): My Lords, discretionary action against the Ford Motor Company lasted from 28th November 1978 until 14th December 1978. During that period, the Government indicated that the company's breach of the pay policy would be taken into account when placing contracts and granting discretionary financial assistance. No additional public expenditure was involved; nor are the Government aware of any damage to the company.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, does not this disastrous episode confirm the unwisdom of the policy then and still being applied by the Government in seeking to support their wages policy by exerting pressure on employers while leaving the trade unions not only free from any pressure but free to apply their own pressures on employers, with the aid of massive legal immunities?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is wrong about every point. First, although the effect of having to give up the power of sanctions through the vote in Parliament does not mean that they are illegal, I believe that it has made it that much harder for the Government to hold the line on wage demands. I agree that to resist inflationary pay claims can be costly, but so is giving in to them. Here, the national interest has to be the over-riding interest. Although it was never envisaged that it would be possible to hold all wage claims to 5 per cent.—flexibility was always ensured by productivity deals, and now the Prime Minister has announced the increase for lower paid workers—nevertheless, it was, and still is, an important bench mark in order to prevent inflation from getting absolutely out of bounds.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, is the noble Baroness really arguing that the Government's action in the case referred to in this Question in applying pressure to the Ford Motor Company, which resulted in a disastrous nine-week strike costing that company hundreds of millions of pounds and resulting also in a very substantial cost to the national balance of payments, followed by a settlement at a higher level than could have been obtained at the beginning, is not an indication that this
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policy, so far from being in the national interest, is disastrously against it?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, as against that, a great many pay claims have been settled at around the 5 per cent. mark, and certainly not in double figures. To pick out one company which would be giving the lead and making a breach in the whole of the pay policy seems to me not to follow the argument at all. If the Government had not stood by what they said about sanctions.—and they have done this in the past in the case of a number of other firms—there would have been no way in which to hold the inflation line. Parliament, in its non-wisdom in another place, decided to stop the Government from doing this. I think that this was very unfortunate and I believe that it is adding to our inflationary situation.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, but as the outcome is actually—
Several noble Lords: Order, order!
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, does not the phrase "disastrous incident" well describe the folly of the Opposition in disarming the Government at a critical moment in the battle against inflation, and is there no point at which the consequences teach the Opposition their folly?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, as the outcome of the Government's action, while this weapon to which her noble friend has referred was available, was a settlement higher than could otherwise have been achieved, can the noble Baroness say how that has helped to check inflation?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, first of all, we do not know whether it would have been higher or not in the end. I still repeat that it was giving a lead to many other companies, and it also meant that many other companies could not possibly afford to meet what Ford itself was offering at the time. I do not think we are having a debate on sanctions this afternoon, but for all those reasons and a number of others it was extremely unfortunate. I should have thought it

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was an episode about which noble Lords opposite should keep a little quieter.
Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a small, powerful minority in the country that wants disciplines applied over a wide field—disciplines to which it is not prepared to subject itself!
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right.
Lord CARR of HADLEY: My Lords, if pressure on employers is in fact such a vital element in the Government's anti-inflation policy, why did the Minister responsible voluntarily withdraw from action on the Price Commission Report on the road haulage industry?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, that is really an entirely different question. In any case, there will be before the House, shortly, I trust, a Prices Bill, and noble Lords will have plenty of opportunity to go into the past, the present and the future.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that the Prices Bill is irrelevant, and that what has been said this afternoon underlines the need for a statutory incomes policy?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, I am afraid the question is irrelevant because of the very strict terms in which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, put down the original Question. We are ranging very widely.
Viscount TRENCHARD: My Lords, would the noble Baroness let the House know what kind of cost the Government expected the Ford Motor Company to accept in supporting its policy? It is reported that the cost was over £200 million. Would the noble Baroness say whether the Government feel that that is going to encourage Ford to continue investment in this country, and would she comment on the fact that perhaps Ford would have been able to stand up to the strike better if there had been a liability on the union for breaking a contract one month before it ended?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, I do not think it serves any purpose to go back into
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all the historical details. I think the main point still is that when you are trying to keep down inflation, as the Government are trying to, responsibility rests on both employers and employees, and one cannot say that either side has on the whole behaved very well over the whole thing. But it is no good noble Lords opposite blaming the employees and at the same time treating the employers who have made breaches in the policy as though they were saints.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, would the noble Baroness tell the House how much loss was expected? She said there was no damage to the company. How can she make that statement when the company has lost £250 million, when the company has lost nine weeks production, and the country also has lost? The only reputation that has been utterly destroyed is that of Mr. Moss Evans. The company and the country must wish that the Government had put rather more pressure on him to restrain this outrageously inflationary settlement.
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, if the noble Lord will turn to the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, he will see that it asked how long the sanctions were operated, whether there was any increase in public spending, and what damage the Government think they did to the company. I have answered that. We are not aware of any damage to the company because the whole thing only lasted two weeks.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, it lasted nine weeks.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, I think we should move to the next Question.

SCOTLAND ACT 1978: AVAILABILITY
2.56 p.m.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether copies of the Scotland Act

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1978 are now available in all public libraries in Scotland and where copies of the Act can be bought in Scotland.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, arrangements for the publication and distribution of the Scotland Act 1978 were as for any other Acts of Parliament, although Her Majesty's Stationery Office in Scotland ordered a larger stock than usual. I understand that most public libraries will have copies available, as will many university and private libraries. Copies can be bought from Her Majesty's Stationery Office bookshop in Edinburgh, Stationery Office agents in Aberdeen, Glasgow and Dumfries, and by order from any bookseller.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, but as the only question on the ballot paper in the referendum in five weeks' time is, "Do you want the provisions of the Scotland Act to be put into effect?", ought not the electors at the very least to have a chance of seeing what they are being asked to vote on? Is the noble Lord aware that there have been letters and reports in the Scottish Press that members of the public have found it impossible to see copies? The Act is far too expensive for most individuals to buy. So will the Government do everything they can to arrange that there is a good supply of copies in libraries in Scotland?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, there is already a good supply. Yesterday Her Majesty's Stationery Office bookshop in Edinburgh had copies of the Act available for sale, as did all the three agents in Scotland. John Smith's in Glasgow have already over 300 copies in stock and the Edinburgh bookshop had 100 in stock at the end of last week. With regard to libraries, all the larger library authorities at least will have copies of the Act, since they have a standing order for all Acts of Parliament. It is reasonable to suppose that a number of the library authorities who do not automatically take every Act of Parliament will have ordered copies of the Scotland Act.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, the noble Lord is still dealing with
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availability for sale, about which I did ask in my Question, for which information I am grateful; but is he aware that the real problem is availability to see rather than to buy, because it is far too expensive for the individual to buy? To compare it with other Acts of Parliament is quite wrong, because there has been no referendum in our history on any other Act of Parliament.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I thought I had answered that. The alternative to buying a copy is to go and read one in the library. This, of course, is a matter for the local authorities, the library service, but we have checked up and we understand that it is working perfectly well; there have been no complaints to the Scottish Office that anybody has been denied being able to read the Act in the library. With regard to putting out explanatory leaflets and other things, as the noble Lord knows, the Government planned to do this but Parliament thought otherwise.
Lord COTTESLOE: My Lords, will copies of the Act be available on the island of Benbecula?
Lord POLWARTH: My Lords, in view of the extreme complexity of the Act, would the noble Lord not agree that it is not just a question of having it available to study or buy? Will the Government not consider issuing free a short factual summary of the Act written in plain English, to enable the people of Scotland to know what precisely they are being asked to vote about?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the Government originally planned to issue a leaflet but it became clear during the debates on the Scotland and Wales Bills that Parliament did not accept that a sufficiently balanced presentation of the issues could be made to warrant the use of public funds. When the Government indicated last July that they did not intend to issue a leaflet they made it clear that they believed that a case could be made for so doing, although they accepted the view of Parliament, including the view of another place.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, in view of the importance of the referendum, if the Government cannot publish a

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leaflet, can they not prepare a summary of the Act for publication in the newspapers in Scotland, so that the people may be aware of the subject of the referendum?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I thought that I had made it clear that it was found that it was not possible to do that—this was the view of Parliament— without putting a slight bias on it. However, in order to achieve the highest possible poll, the Government are mounting a campaign in the Scottish media explaining how postal or proxy votes can be obtained.
Lord PARRY: My Lords, will my noble friend accept that there is considerable support for what is contained in his Answer in Scotland and in Wales? Will he also accept that the Wales Bill and the Scotland Bill seem to have been with us so long as to have consumed our youth? Will he further accept that if there is any man, woman, or child in Wales or in Scotland who does not now know the content of the Wales Act or the Scotland Act and does not know what the referendum is about, that person is singularly fortunate? Is my noble friend aware that we believe that the Government have taken a very careful line in what they have put forward regarding the Bills and that the Opposition have argued long into the night regarding the clauses? If there is anyone in the country who at this time does not know what the Acts are about, he will be well informed in the next few weeks by those Parties who will campaign for Assemblies in Wales and in Scotland.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. The Government believe that, in view of the decision by Parliament in its wisdom, the referendum campaign as a whole should be the best means of conveying to the public what is at stake.
The Earl of SELKIRK: My Lords, can the noble Lord say how many copies of the Act have been sold in Scotland?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, 2,000 copies have been sold in Scotland, but this figure does not take into account those copies which, for some reason, were ordered direct from England.
Lord PEART: My Lords, I detect a feeling that we have heard quite a lot about the Scotland Act, and I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that we have an important debate to follow.

TYNE AND WEAR PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL
3.2 p.m.
Read 3a.
Clause 2 [Interpretation]:
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare)The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare) moved the following Amendment:
Page 3, leave out line 10.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move a small Amendment to the Bill. The Amendment would have the effect of leaving out the line in the interpretation clause which reads:
"'the county' means Tyne and Wear County".
At the last minute it was discovered that the words "the county" do not actually appear in the Bill and so there was not much point in defining them.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with the Amendments.

WAGES COUNCILS BILL [H.L.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, I understand that no Amendments have been set down either to this Bill or to the next Consolidation Bill on the Order Paper and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee on either Bill. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Recommitment, be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Recommitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS BILL [H.L.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Order of Recommitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Recommitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ECC FIRST REPORT 1978–79: THE COAL INDUSTRY
3.4 p.m.
Lord WYNNE-JONES Lord WYNNE-JONES rose to call attention to the First Report of the European Communities Committee (H.L. (1978–79) 9) on the position of the Community's coal industry (R/3128/76), and to its implications for the future of the coal industry; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in presenting to your Lordships the report of the Select Committee on the European Communities, and in particular the report of the Sub-Committee, I should like to say a few words in preface. First, I wish to pay a tribute to the person who was largely responsible for initiating this inquiry: I refer to the late Lady Tweeds-muir of Belhelvie. She specially encouraged the introduction of an inquiry into the matter of the coal policy of the Community. She pointed out that, strangely enough, Parliament had never carried out any investigation into the European Coal and Steel Community, although the European Coal and Steel Community is older than the European Economic Community. No inquiry, apparently, had been carried out, and she therefore suggested that it would be very desirable that Sub-Committee F—the Sub-Committee that deals with energy, transport, and such matters—might look into this question. I was specifically asked to act as convener of the Committee for this purpose.
In carrying out the inquiry we were immensely helped, first, by the assiduity and the keenness of the members of the Committee. I do not propose to name them—it would be invidious to do so— but I must say that the Committee as a whole took an immense amount of trouble. It might have amused your Lordships to witness one occasion when a group from the Committee—none of whom was, I think, aged much under 70—went down a coal mine and went to the coal-face in order to investigate the way in which coal is cut and brought up. One member
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of our Committee took enormous trouble to go even beyond that. He assured me that he went to one mine where the incline was 30 degrees, which is almost the angle of glide; that must have been quite an experience. Thus, I can assure your Lordships that the Committee took much trouble, but leaving aside that fact, we were extraordinarily well served both by the Clerk to the Committee and by Mr. Thorley, our adviser, who was largely responsible for putting the report finally into a form which I hope satisfies your Lordships' feeling regarding correctness of language and approach to a subject.
I should like to make one other point at this stage. I did not realise that today, when we were to debate this matter, would be the very day on which one of the most distinguished lawyers of the country, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, was having a birthday; and I should like to say that I personally wish him many happy returns of the day.
To turn to the subject of the debate, I should say that we in the Committee were concerned with the whole problem of coal: the mining of coal, the distribution of coal, the burning of coal, and the processing of coal both in this country and in the Community. We should not have been justified in restricting our attention merely to this country because we were a Sub-Committee of the European Economic Communities Committee, and so we were bound to consider the matter in European terms. We started with the statement that was made in the European Commission's own proposals put forward in 1974, in which they said that the future on the energy side was likely to be distinctly troublesome. Remember that this was immediately after there had been the first Arab intervention in the price of oil, in which they decided that the price was going to rise sensationally and in which it became clear that the era of cheap oil had gone. The European Commission recommended at the time that the dependence of Europe upon oil should be drastically cut, and that coal and nuclear energy should be the two main props of an energy policy during the remainder of this century.
Now what has happened? At the time when they put this forward the European Community as a whole—that is, including this country, Germany, France, Belgium,

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the Netherlands, and so on—were producing approximately 250 million tons of coal a year. It was the opinion of the Commission that this ought to be considerably increased. It has decreased, and over the last three years it has been more like 230 million tons instead of the 250 million tons that were being produced at that time.
Furthermore, whereas there used to be a prosperous Dutch coal industry, there is now no Dutch coal industry. There used to be quite a substantial Belgian coal industry; I think they now produce about 2 million tons of coal a year. There used to be quite a substantial French coal industry; they are down to something between 5 million tons and 10 million tons of coal a year. The German industry used to produce as much coal as we did; they are now down to 90 million tons a year compared with the peak production that we had of 250 million tons. We, ourselves, had been dropping drastically, and we are down to something like 130 million tons of coal a year.
So instead of coal being something that was going to be a main prop for our energy supplies during this century coal has been steadily, dramatically, in fact, relapsing and we have been getting less coal instead of more. It is true that in this country there has been a reversal, and it is true that the tripartite agreement to which the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, referred in his Question, has played an important part in reversing this tendency, but we are still faced with the fact that coal is no longer throughout Europe the major prop of our energy requirements.
This is a very serious and important thing because it means either that we are dependent upon oil which has to be imported—except for the oil that we in this country are fortunate enough to get from the North Sea—or we have to build nuclear energy stations on an enormous scale. Back in 1974, the requirement put forward by the European Commission was the building of something like 200 gigawatt equivalence of nuclear power. The gigawatt is equivalent—it is only a unit—to one of the largest stations, and so 200 of these were to be planned.
Your Sub-Committee presented a report to this House about three years ago in which it was pointed out—largely, if I
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may say so, on the experience of a very valuable Member of the Committee, Lord Hinton of Bankside, who built the first nuclear stations—that it was physically impossible to do this. At first, the Commission were rather shattered by our reply. In fact, they first refused to talk to us about it, but later they did talk to us and they accepted the point of view. I may say that ever since then we have had the friendliest relations with the Energy Directorate of the Commission. But it is important to realise that the premises on which that policy was put forward were utterly wrong, and that now I think the aim in Europe, if they are lucky, is to get something like 45 instead of the 200, and it is doubtful if they will get that.
So we are faced with the problem— and it is important to realise this—that when people talk about there being an energy gap in the year 2000 they really mean an energy chasm. It is not a minor gap, it is an appalling chasm between requirement and supply as being planned. There is only one way in which one really meets such a situation, assuming that one does not have a vast resource of money to buy up all the oil of the world and let the Americans go hang. Assuming we cannot do that, the only other way is to do without energy, and this is the inevitable result of going ahead without being certain as to whether we are planning adequately for the future.
What your Committee suggests—and we are not going over the whole energy field; I am not using this debate in order to discuss every facet of the energy supply —is that one of the major props of the whole of our energy policy, the one that was regarded as such by the Commission, is coal. Are we, therefore, within the Community, doing enough in the way of meeting the inevitable demand for coal? We were delighted to find that the Government, the National Coal Board, the National Union of Mineworkers, had all agreed that there should be a target for the end of the century. One has to be careful about the use of words like "target" because when one looked at the figures one found that the lowest estimate put forward was 135 million tons of coal a year and the highest was 200 million tons of coal a year and, strangely enough, the figure decided 'on was 170 million tons, which your Lordships will

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realise is almost exactly half-way between the lower estimate and the higher estimate.
It so often happens that when people are faced with a situation like this they say, "All right, let us take the mean". In my experience, the mean is always wrong—except fortuitously now and again it happens to be right. So we felt strongly—and I am not speaking for myself at all; I am speaking for the Committee—that we ought to put our target as high as possible. We are not technical experts; we cannot tell the Government, the Coal Board or anybody else exactly what figure they must use. We simply said, "Aim at the upper end. Try for as much as you can get".
Noble Lords may say this is a trivial matter, but it is not, because even the target of 170 million tons a year means opening up approximately 4 million tons of fresh capacity every year from now until the end of the century, and that is a major operation. If, therefore, we say, "Go beyond that; go as high as you can", we are asking that there should be a determined effort to set our sights as high as possible. Unless our sights are set high, it is doubtful whether we shall reach even the low objective we have. Set them high enough and then we can, if we put the effort into it, have some hope of getting, if not there, then at least as high as turns out to be practicable. We therefore ask that this be treated as, as it were, a political issue, an issue highly appropriate to this House and to Parliament. It is an issue in which we are trying to get the maximum possible achievement by the end of the century, and unless we do that we shall certainly be short.
I do not intend to detain the House by going at length into the problems or the technicalities that arise, but a few points must be mentioned, one being that in the 1980s it is fairly certain there will be almost a glut of oil and gas available. Because of that, there is a temptation for a body like the Central Electricity Generating Board to use oil rather than coal for generating power. We looked into this matter carefully and I was surprised—I think other members of the Committee were surprised too—to learn that the amount of oil or coal burned by the CEGB did not really depend primarily
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on how many coal burning and oil burning stations they had, and for a very interesting reason. That reason is that they are looking to the time when their base load is carried by nuclear power. It is the peak load which is taken by oil or coal, and therefore they can switch from one to the other, even if we do not have dual firing, and they do not like dual firing because, they say, it is uneconomical.
Thus, building dual fired stations is not the answer. The answer is a definite policy to burn coal, if that is what we intend doing. Unless we decide on that, we shall be in real difficulty, because it could easily happen that in the 1980s the higher peak load will be taken over by oil rather than coal and the consumption of coal could drop drastically, so drastically that it could affect the whole financing of the coal industry.
That is why Mr. Brunner, the Commissioner in Brussels, has proposed that there should be a subsidy paid for the burning of coal in fire stations and that that subsidy should be equal to the difference between the domestic price of coal and the price of imported coal, because one can buy coal cheaply from Australia and America. He therefore makes this proposal, which would go a long way to meeting the situation, and unless something like that is done we may find ourselves in a difficult position.
That is in the 1980s. Later on, there will not be an excess supply of oil; we shall begin to be short of oil and we shall then be in the position of wanting coal at the very time when the coal industry is run down. That is why your Committee believes it to be absolutely vital to maintain the coal industry at the highest possible level and to go on increasing it steadily. Obviously, if by the end of the century we did not want the coal, then all we are proposing would be nonsense; but we believe there is every reason to suppose we shall need it and that we shall need it for energy production, because it is doubtful whether we can build the nuclear stations in time to meet the requirement by the end of the century, and therefore the coal will be required.
But there is another point, namely, that even when coal is no longer required as a source of energy in the sense of electrical

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energy or anything of that nature, we shall need coal as a petro-chemical source because, when oil fails us, our chemical industry, which at the moment is largely dependent on oil, will not have the resources. Coal is the one hydrocarbon source that we know with absolute certainty we can rely on in this country for at least 300 years and in America for probably 600 years. We must therefore realise that there is a vital necessity to preserve the coal industry now for energy reasons and to have it in good working shape at the turn of the century to be a petro-chemical source.
Those are the main points I wish to make. There is much more I hope other speakers will say. I can only hope that perhaps when I look down and see your Lordships deliberating in the year 2000 there will be a Secretary of State for Energy who will be saying that this country was able to save itself by its own efforts and to save Europe by its example.
3.28 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I wish I could emulate the Committee and the noble Lord who chaired most of its meetings—and who generously gave so much of the credit to the Clerk and his adviser—in the clarity and brevity with which they have woven their way through an extraordinarily complex and indeed rather emotive series of issues which affect the industry on which the prosperity of this country was founded some 200 years ago. I must also congratulate the noble Lord on having achieved the rather unique distinction of managing to have three coal debates in one day and still, during that time, managing to show how deeply he understands all the issues by a simplicity and clarity which could be based only on a real understanding of the subject.
The first point to emerge, one which always seems to emerge with energy problems, is that the lead time for developments and results of those developments in almost all energy production is of the order of seven to 10 years, and sometimes 15, whereas we are fortunate if the politician lifts his eyes even so far ahead as five years; usually, I regret to say, it is a great deal less. Here, the report suggests—although it does not do it in these terms—that maybe the Commission
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has a real contribution to make since it is, I hope, not quite so mesmerised by short-term political considerations as most Ministers have to be.
The overall energy situation is strikingly stated in the report on page xii, where it says quite bluntly:
"But our problem in 2010 may not be to cover our total energy needs at the lowest cost, but to cover them at all";
and this was a point to which the noble Lord referred. But then again, on page vii the report also says, bringing it back to the specific issue of coal:
"On any credible hypothesis, a much greater quantity of coal and nuclear power will be needed as the end of the century approaches".
I think I should say two things about that. That comparatively simple statement postulates that we can overcome the environmental problems both of getting the coal and of converting it into useful energy. Perhaps I may say in passing that I think these problems are a good deal easier for the nuclear industry than they are for the coal industry, which is more dangerous and more polluting than is the nuclear industry.
That statement also postulates at least a partial acceptance of the prospect of continuously rising energy consumption, and this, of course, is passionately disputed by some writers. Lovins' Soft Energy Paths, for one; and the one which was referred to earlier this afternoon, Gerald Leach's recent book, A Low Energy Strategy for the United Kingdom. They believe that the exponential increase in energy is unnecessary, expensive and potentially disastrous. Even if one does not go all the way with them, I think we should pay attention to their arguments; and I would still believe that there is a great deal to be said for spending money on not using energy. That may sound rather Irish, but in point of fact it is a great deal cheaper to save energy than it is to spend money producing energy sources, I would believe.
However, there is another factor which is pulling the same way—at least at the Community level, as the noble Lord has also said—and that is referred to several times in this report. The Community has a declared policy of striving to reduce what it calls "import dependence". That is a political decision to attempt to emancipate themselves from the outside

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pressures associated with the dependence, from outside sources, upon so vital a resource as energy supply. But I have never seen anywhere any attempt to quantify the price that the Community are willing to pay for what one might call this political luxury. I think it is important to realise, however, here, that the United Kingdom situation is radically different from that in the rest of the Community; indeed, in all of Western Europe except Norway.
We are fortunate enough to be able confidently to forecast energy independence within a couple of years now: 1980 is the date usually used. This is not only because we have these large coal resources —and I think we are still discovering more resources as the days go by, with the massive exploration programme which there has been. Combined with that we have the oil and natural gas discoveries of the last 10 or 15 years; and, in what I might call the medium-term, we in this country now have a very large reserve of spent fuel from the thermal nuclear stations, which potentially is usable as a massive energy source once the breeder reactor becomes a reality—and there is no doubt in my mind that it will, although there is some question as to the economics with regard to developing it and who is going to do it. But I think we must face the fact that our situation is different from that of the rest of the Community. We do not have the same imperative need to invest in energy independence as they have. Incidentally, it is ironical that this is at least partly due to the fact that the price rise as a result of the OPEC cartel in 1973 was the thing which in fact made it economic for us to open up the North Sea oil, which might not otherwise have been the case.
It seems to me, therefore, that in view of the fact that we are engaged in an international struggle for our industrial and economic survival, we have to be very careful that we do not hamstring our industry by imposing upon ourselves an environment of relatively high energy costs in relation to our competitors. This is the dilemma about our coal industry. It is very tempting to say, "Let market forces prevail"—and, indeed, the more complicated the situation becomes the more I find myself tempted to take refuge in a simple statement of
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that kind—and I have no doubt that a contribution could be made towards reducing the overall cost of coal if we were prepared to close down the uneconomic capacity and concentrate on the viable coalfields, particularly those in the Midlands, and on opening up the new and potentially profitable coalfields which have been discovered. I do not for a moment underrate the social difficulty of doing something like that, but I would suggest that that aspect would be something which is quite separate from the problem of the coal industry as such.
The more serious point, I think, is the one to which the noble Lord referred, which is that if we allow the industry to decline we are then putting ourselves in the situation where we would have less capacity and have lost the trained workforce, and, indeed, where we would have lost the whole social organisation which we may be requiring again in a matter of 30 years. I think this time-scale is important, because I find myself tending towards a feeling that our proper policy would be to postulate a certain contraction in the industry for a time in the interest of reducing costs and improving efficiency—reculer pour mieux sauter, I suppose it might be said. It is also true to say that if we could reduce the cost of coal then, in fact, we would tend to stimulate the demand for it and might find that the balance would strike at a higher level than would otherwise be expected. There is no doubt that the demand for coal is extremely price-sensitive and the Coal Board recently produced some figures which are slightly disturbing in this respect. We have to remember that coal is rather less convenient to transport than is oil, is rather more difficult to use and has rather more environmental problems, other things being equal.
They pointed out that the price advantage that coal enjoys was 36 per cent. in January 1975, 26 per cent. in January 1977 and has come down to 14 per cent. in January 1978; although I hope to refer later to the question of the relevance of efficiency conversion of coal which is improving. But if it is true that developments take seven to 10 years and if it is true that we in this country will not run into an energy gap for 30 to 40 years, it suggests that there might be a case not for a steady increase of 4 million tons

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new capacity a year but a halt in creating the new capacity, to bring it in at twice the rate at a later date.
This may be said to be impractical; it may be that you want to build up the industry on a more steady basis. But it is quite clear that the price has to be controlled and, if possible, brought down by investment in new plant, by productivity schemes—which I understand are now beginning to work satisfactorily— and by bringing in new faces. Obviously, this is much more difficult to do against a pattern of falling demand but we have to face the fact that the cost talked about in A Plan for Coal in 1974 was £1,400 million—and the same figure was said to be over £3,000 million in 1977 and is now over £4,000 million. If we are going to spend that kind of money, then it must be justified so that I think the question of demand is crucial.
Here I refer to a rather strange expression. The noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, said the word "target" is a curious word; but at the beginning of this report they refer to the "target for Community demand." I suppose that when you talk about a target for demand you mean that demand will have to be artificially stimulated. I believe that this is possibly the right thing to do and I am sure that the noble Lord was right when he talked about Commissioner Brunner's proposal to subsidise power station uses. It is worth remembering here that 60 per cent., I think, of the coal industry's output is currently used by the Central Electricity Generating Board where the demand is already slack and is likely to continue to be slack as the advanced gas-cooled reactors come on stream—is it four years late? or however many years late; but they are beginning to do their stuff.
Simultaneously we are faced at the present time with problems in the steel industry. The consumption by the steel industry in this country has dropped from 20 million tons in 1974 to 13 million tons last year, which is a drop of some 40 per cent. Yet, as the report points out, the Community is currently importing coking coal from outside. On page 7 they make a very fair point when they say:
".… for the Community to be importing substantial quantities of coking coal at a time when there is a slump in that industry suggests that imports are not the marginal supply but are likely to persist when steel production improves".
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This suggests that there is a potential market for the coking coal that we could produce in this country among our EEC brothers. I also understand in a number of countries—Denmark, France, Germany, Sweden and Holland—they are busy converting their power stations from coal to oil.
Unfortunately, much of the extra consumption is to be met by imports from outside, from Australia and the USA and rather less from Poland where, I gather, there is an increased demand and a problem of transport. It is worth making the point that the price advantage of Australian coal could be very rapidly eroded if world trade recovered and if the price of freight increased; because 50 per cent. of the cost of Australian coal delivered to this country is in freight and if the freight market recovered then the chances are that the price advantage of Australian coal would largely disappear. The other curious point that was not mentioned by the noble Lord is that I am given to understand that the large subsidies that the West Germans give to their coal industry are very largely concentrated on cushioning the effects of closing down capacity rather than being used to stimulate production. That hardly seems consistent with the declared objectives of the EEC, to which the noble Lord referred.
One of the brightest spots of our National Coal Board is their technical excellence. Particularly are they ahead in techniques of gasification, liquefaction and fluidised bed combustion. My understanding is that gasification and liquefaction are not likely to prove very economically attractive for quite some years to come; although I do not disagree with the noble Lord when he said that ultimately coal is going to be perhaps of more use as chemical feedstock than as a primary energy source. But fluidised bed combustion is important. It is important particularly because I understand it can be used in relatively smaller units and tends to produce less pollution. This offers a very attractive prospect in that sooner or later we have to come to combined heat and power production, that is to say that power stations not only produce electricity but use the 70 per cent. of the heat which may otherwise go up the chimney. You cannot do this if the power station is 20 or 30 miles out because it is such an unpleasant neighbour. If there are

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smaller units, they can be closer in and you have a chance to use the heat.
There is a particularly attractive prospect here in that the CEGB is now engaged on the prospect of phasing out some of its older, smaller and closer stations. Perhaps it would be sensible not to phase them out but to re-equip them with fluidised bed combustion systems and with combined heat and power, and then they do not have to become involved in all the planning and environment hassles because they are merely re-using an existing station that they already have. I hope that is not pipe-dreaming. It is certainly what I believe they hope. We are entitled to say to our European neighbours: You should be supporting more of our research effort. I believe this is one of the points that was being investigated during the Question period earlier today.
If I have not made the House as confused as I am myself about the different pressures, I must try and bring this matter together. I believe that the longer-term future of our coal industry is a bright one. It seems to me that the technical work now being done should bear fruit if the effort is kept up at just about the time when the demand will be rising again. However, it would be dangerous if we allowed this cheering prospect to blind us to the demand problems which we have in the nearer term, where low cost imports are available in a time of weak demand. It seems to me that we should try and turn this to our advantage by tackling our cost problems at source; but I think that we are entitled to remind our EEC colleagues of their energy independence policy and therefore their vested interest in assisting us to find markets, if only we can play our part in keeping down our costs.
3.52 p.m.
Lord TANLAW: My Lords, we from these Benches would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, for bringing about this debate on what is a very important report. Technical reports have a habit of being incredibly boring for non-technical people to read. They are also inclined on occasions to consist of long tracts of departmental prose which often appears to the readers to be highly uninformative. This report is
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neither of those things. It is interesting, and the method of questioning used by the Members of the Select Committee seems to extract from the very professional bodies and individuals that gave evidence the kind of replies which were comprehensible and extremely helpful to those of us who are not technical but are concerned with the creation of an energy policy in this country. One of the better comments—I cannot remember on which page this appears—was that the term "power generation" was reduced to "boiling water". That is really all that means, and we often forget that. Comments of this kind are helpful and are dotted throughout the pages of the report.
The main point that we can gather from what was being said is that the greatest concern of the Committee was how the British coal industry will survive the next 10 lean years in order to benefit from the high price and high hopes of demand that are anticipated for the early 1990s. This is based on the assumption, as has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, that the other fuel sources of oil and gas will be in short supply throughout Europe by this time, leaving coal and nuclear fuel as the only main alternatives in the field. I intend to expand on this briefly, but before doing so I should like to take up a point covered by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, that there is a distinction, which I am not entirely sure was made clear the in report, between the European problem of coal and their energy problems and the United Kingdom problem of coal and its energy problem.
There is a very clear distinction which I shall come on to because the energy crisis in Europe is likely to occur—in my crude estimation anyway—at least 10 years earlier than it will be felt in the United Kingdom. This is due to Europe's large dependence on imported fuels for the bulk of their energy supplies. The point is that the demand for coal and therefore a market for it at the right price will occur in Europe long before it opens up again in the United Kingdom. During the 1980s there will be surplusses creating possibly a price war in which coal is bound to be the loser.
Let us not forget that the United Kingdom citizens are living in what is virtually an off-shore power station with almost

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unlimited indigenous energy supplies in the form of coal, and the question is how to make best use of this asset when the time comes. The Committee spent a considerable part of its time in investigations in attempting to find answers to this question. There is a scenario in Appendix II of the report, which can be considered either realistic or highly pessimistic, on the position in which the coal industry will find itself by the 1990s. This is entirely due to the record of the production to date and has been extrapolated forward. Emphasis was laid on the failure to meet current production targets, combined with the high prices to the consumer that exist today. Mr Gerald Manners the author of this paper, indicates that on past performance, and faced with a surplus of fuels at highly competitive prices during the 1980s, coal may be unable to compete without assistance of the kind suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones.
This brings me on to the marketing of non-coking coal which seems from this report to be tied almost entirely to one customer, the Central Electricity Generating Board. The evidence given by the Board made it quite clear that it was not its function or duty to maintain a flourishing coal industry, but to provide electricity to the general public at an economic price. This philosophy seemed to justify the purchase of coal from outside the Community, as has been mentioned, from Poland, Australia or the United States, in order to fill the power stations at an economic cost. This conflict of interests is bound to continue during the critical period under discussion—that is, the 1980s—which the coal industry has to survive somehow in order to reap the rewards it hopes to do in the 1990s.
The coal industry can only do this, according to the report, either by a subsidy from Government, as has been suggested, in order that its production will continue to be taken up by the CEGB, or by savage economic measures involving pit closures, unemployment, rigid control of miners' wages, and so on. I do not accept that this needs to be the situation. I doubt if it would be tenable or practicable for either of these great monopolies to pursue this policy. I do not believe that the Government should treat the British coal industry like a pet dinosaur, just to delay its extinction. There must be a more
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positive approach than this which must lie in the right areas of research and development to make the industry more competitive for the time when it will be needed.
Before suggesting these areas for research and development and trying to establish which might be the most productive, I wish to raise the question of efficient energy conversion which is the basis of Liberal Party policy and which noble Lords are well aware has been the basis of almost every intervention I have made on this subject in this House. If I dare make a criticism of the report, it is that it has not made clear the distinction between using coal or energy to create heat and that which is to create power. The question in the 1990s, as I see it, will be how to manage the end use demand for heat other than via electricity, which even at its best has a conversion factor of only 30 per cent. The domestic consumer today relies on gas to provide this heat which is both cheap and efficient.
We are told that by the year 2000 this source of national gas will be unavailable, or at least Intermittent, and the same will also apply to oil. Therefore, is this demand to be satisfied only by electricity, or is there a way in which coal can fill this gap? I believe it can, provided that adequately funded research and development takes place over the next decade. These views were confirmed in the evidence given by Mr. Joe Gormley on pages 121–133 of the report. His conclusions come very close to the Liberal Party's policy and to their view of the greater use of district heating through combined heat and power systems based on the small, and now defunct, urban generating stations of the kind mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona.
Mr. Gormley, I think, is a quite exceptional union leader in these days when they are often under some criticism. Not only does he know his subject but from the evidence he gave to this Committee he was able to show me, at least, that he was a man of great vision and was not entirely biased about his own industry or his own job. His conclusions on the areas of research and development, which are the areas I am discussing, were that there were two areas which needed development: gasification and the fluidised bed system. I happen entirely to

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agree with him. Nevertheless, I am both pleased and relieved to hear that a man of his experience has come to these conclusions. Not only do I not want to go into the technicalities of either system but I cannot, because I am not a technician. However, I should like to suggest to the noble Lord the Minister who is to reply to the debate that he might give us some hope that these are lines which will be more aggressively pursued than has been the case so far.
Very simply, it is quite clear that by the end of the century the natural gas lines will be lying empty and the domestic consumer will have to look for another source of heat for cooking and hot water. By that time, there will be abundant electricity—some people say there will be a surplus—to satisfy this gap. But in terms of energy conversion, I believe it should be used only as a last resort: that is, if the coal industry is unable to provide a domestic gas service to replace the natural North Sea gas which is being used at the moment. If that is made a prime objective for the coal industry, I believe it will rejuvenate the entire industry and also provide a future source of employment for many years to come.
Mr. Gormley went on to mention the fluidised bed system, the main development of which is, I understand, in the hands of the private sector rather than of the Coal Board. If Britain can continue to maintain its lead in this field—I think it has slipped, but hopefully it can perhaps be recovered through more funds and more enthusiasm being put into it by the Government—and can produce an economical system which is suitable for use by the small urban generating sets, then we shall have the exciting possibility of being able to provide combined heat and power systems for the city-dweller. I believe that these systems will be justified both in terms of energy conversion and in the provision to domestic consumers of a cheap and satisfactory service. This is something we in the Liberal Party have been pressing for many years, and I recommend to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, this excellent pamphlet by Mr. Graham Searle, who has covered this aspect very clearly. Indeed, the noble Lord may perhaps have drawn on it for his speech this afternoon. This information on the fluidised bed system and the
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small heat and power systems for the cities is being studied in the United States, in Germany and in Sweden; and perhaps it is in this area that we can get together a little more closely than hitherto with our European partners.
Finally, I want to touch briefly on the environmental effects. It has been said both in the report and in speeches this afternoon, that new seams will have to be opened. These seams, unfortunately, are set in attractive countryside—the Belvoir Valley is the most obvious one. My Lords, coal is a messy business. It will create a mess to develop and extend these seams into profitability and into filling the energy gap in the late 'nineties. If I may, I shall add just one word of advice, if I dare say that, to the environmentalists: this kind of mess on the countryside is very easily and quickly reparable, in the sense that nature has a wonderful way of managing to "green over" some of the scars created by a new mine or, in the sphere I am more familiar with, a forestry road and other ugly scars that can occur and which, when first created, look most unsightly. As the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, has said, we may well be faced with the choice that if the energy gap becomes the chasm that he predicts we have either to suffer from a small blot on our countryside for a few years or to suffer from the inability to keep ourselves warm in the kind of weather we are experiencing today.
A final word on the environment is that I have on another occasion attempted to warn noble Lords about the effects of fossil fuel burning in the upper atmosphere —the "greenhouse effect," and so on. If these programmes, or even a half of them, that are being considered in Europe, in the United States and the Third World come about—and I am sure they will— and if, as is quite possible, we receive further information from the scientific studies being conducted in the upper atmosphere indicating that fossil fuels are going to change the climate, then we may well be faced with a choice of having to cut back on our fossil fuel exploitation.
On reflection, and on reading this report, I would say that even if we were told today that the exploitation of fossil fuels will affect the Earth's atmosphere and therefore our weather, I do not believe that we would stop the future of the coal industry because of that. We would

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find far more important human and down-to-earth reasons for not doing so. Other countries would do the same. Therefore, I would say that the fossil fuels are going to have to be developed over the next 20 or 30 years. My personal belief is that they will affect the atmosphere and the climate. We are going to have to live with this as one more effect which is man-made; but this effect is much more irreversible than that of the nuclear waste which we are having problems burying. It is a fact that we have created an effect which steadily moves onward and we have no means at all, so far as I am aware—the scientists advise me that is so—of reversing this process. Therefore, I should like to conclude with this warning: although I believe that fossil fuels will have to be developed along the lines we are considering in this report in this country and also in Europe and the Third World, we shall be greatly adding to a process which is far more irreversible than that of the nuclear waste that we appear to be having trouble disposing of for the future.
4.8 p.m.
Lord SHERFIELD: My Lords, I intervene in this debate as the newly-appointed Chairman of Sub-Committee F of the Select Committee on the European Communities. I feel I should make some comment, if only to put on record that my own part in its production was minimal, not to say minuscule. The credit for this report rests with my predecessor as Chairman, the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, who has been so unfortunately prevented from being in his place this afternoon, and the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, who took the chair for much of the inquiry and who has made such a powerful speech in introducing the report this afternoon. We are looking forward to speeches from other members of the Committee, who took such an active, strenuous and, indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, has said, heroic part in the inquiry.
We are, of course, discussing an EEC document and this debate is held in the European context. As we have heard, Community coal comes from four Member countries—Belgium, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. But Belgium's production is negligible, that of the French is small, and German production
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is mainly specialised—brown coal for domestic consumption; coking coal for home and export—leaving the United Kingdom as the only really large source of every other kind of coal.
There is a small problem here. The Scrutiny Committees are, I think, enjoined to confine their inquiries to Community legislation, but in the case of coal the United Kingdom is such a relatively large producer that it is not always possible or easy to distinguish the matters which are predominantly of domestic interest—investment, technical and production problems and the important question of pricing, to which the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, referred—from those of Community interest. Nevertheless, I think that an attempt has to be made. Many of the technical problems of coal production in the United Kingdom may be better pursued in depth in some forum other than that of the Select Committee on the European Communities.
I therefore turn to the progress, or rather, the lack of it, which has been made recently in the Energy Council of the EEC. The present picture emerged from a report contained in a Written Answer given on 19th December in another place, on the result of the meeting of Energy Ministers held on 19th December. There were before that meeting useful, if limited, proposals relating to the subsidising of Community steam coal, an investment fund to encourage the construction of coal-fuelled stations, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, referred, assistance for coking coal and other questions. But no agreement was reached on these, and, indeed, little agreement was reached on anything— a situation which persisted all last year. Could the Minister, in his reply, enlarge a little on the reasons for this?
Is it because the United Kingdom with its great predominance in the European energy field has failed to exercise leadership and initiative? Is it possible that our representatives, by their luke-warm and rather unco-operative attitude to the whole idea of the European Community, have so antagonised the other members that they have laid their ears right back and stuck out their forelegs in the familiar mule-like posture, to resist any proposals which might appear to benefit the United Kingdom, whether or not they, in fact,

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do so? Whatever the reasons, the situation is a lamentable one since the Community, after five years of discussion, still lacks the essentials of a concerted energy policy.
Rather more progress has been made in the more general field of analysis and energy forecasting—a notoriously hazardous process involving the evaluation of several variables. A very recent paper from the Commission is coming before the Sub-Committee and, with the approval of the Select Committee, we hope to lay before the House in the relatively near future a report which might form the basis of a more general debate on the prospects of all forms of energy in Europe, and indeed in the world, for it is difficult to localise the problems.
I now turn for a moment to one important aspect of the report itself. It lays great stress on the need to achieve, and indeed to exceed, the figure of 170 million tons of production in the United Kingdom in the year 2000, which the Government regard as an upper limit. I agree, of course, that this is desirable and I am not seeking to contradict anything that the noble Lord, Lord Wynn-Jones, said. But I could find little or no indication in the evidence that, realistically, this figure of 170 million tons was likely to be exceeded, or indeed reached. The chairman of the National Coal Board said in his evidence that the rate of expansion which the Board had had over the last year was as much as they could effectively absorb. Assuming the availability of the increased resources which the Sub-Committee recommend, I think that the absorptive capacity referred to by Sir Derek Ezra will continue to impose a ceiling on development. At all events, I suggest that it would be rash to assume otherwise.
This lends point to a sentence which appears in paragraph 28 of the report:
"Unless coal can provide more energy than at present envisaged, the Community's likely energy needs in the longer term will be able to be met only by greater expansion of nuclear energy than has so far been made clear to the public".
It has, indeed, always been assumed, I think, that whatever success was achieved in meeting the targets for coal, additional nuclear stations would be essential if the energy gap, or chasm as the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, called it, was even
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to be narrowed. The Commission based its forecasts two or three years ago on a very large increase of nuclear power in Europe, and it is already clear that those forecasts were quite unrealistic. If the Community's coal policy, such as it is, is lagging, the nuclear power station building programme is falling far behind. It is worth recalling that one of the strong arguments for nuclear power is that it is not labour intensive, and is therefore immune from the escalation of labour costs which was foreseen and has occurred, and which is likely to persist in the future. Is not the next wage round just ahead of us?
In this country, which once had a lead in all aspects of nuclear power technology, the performance in recent years has been truly disappointing. The environmentalist crusade against nuclear power—most, if not all, of which is wholly sincere— seems to have the Government paralysed. Nuclear power is held to be unsafe and there is a mental block here which the authorities—not only the Government— seem unable to tackle, still less resolve. Disaster after disaster occurs to oil installations and transport, and to chemical plants, while the safety record of the nuclear industry remains unbroken, and as the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, said, if I heard him correctly, the nuclear industry would not contribute to the environmental problem to which he referred.
It is true that two new advanced gas-cooled reactor stations have been authorised, but the only proved technology to fill the energy gap after 1990 is the fast breeder reactor; the technology in which we once had an undisputed lead, but in which we are now allowing the French and the Germans to forge ahead of us, although they did ask us to co-operate with them in the current development. What is being done about the fast breeder reactor programme in this country? We have been told, I think, that the Secretary of State for Energy is waiting for a move by the Electricity Council. It is strange to see a Secretary of State skulking behind the sturdy figure of Sir Francis Tombs, but is it really thought that Sir Francis is going to stick his neck out over what, in the circumstances, is an essentially political decision? Has the Minister anything to say about that? Admittedly this debate is about the coal

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industry, but coal, still less other sources of energy, whatever the success of their development, cannot alone provide the answer and, as is regularly said in the course of our debates on this subject, time is running out.
4.21 p.m.
Lord NOEL-BAKER: My Lords, if I venture to intervene in this debate it is because a long time ago I held the office of Minister of Fuel and Power. In my experience, anyone who has been deeply involved with coal never loses his interest and his enthusiasm for the subject. I held that office very shortly after the nation had taken over the coal mines and had placed them under the management of the National Coal Board. I thought then, and I still think, that that was a wise, indeed an indispensable short-term policy.
At that time, very bitter attacks were made on the principle of the takeover, on the Coal Board, on the miners, on me and on everyone concerned. I used to answer the critics by quoting a great magnate of British industry—if I remember rightly, the Chairman of ICI —who in 1948 or 1949 told a congress of businessmen in Canada that if the coal mines had not been taken over by the nation our production in that year would have been 130 million tons instead of the 200 million tons we were getting and that that gap of 70 million tons would have meant utter disaster for the nation. This was profoundly true. At that time, the coal mines, thanks to the overworking of the mines during the war and to other causes, were in a lamentable condition. No private investor would touch a coal mine with a barge pole. And coal, after the Second World War, was what Lloyd George called it after the First World War: black diamonds. It was of infinite value during our reconstruction after the war and the little that we were able to spare for export was of immense value to our allies.
I believe that the policy that was adopted has been not only a short-term but a long-term success. If we are able to confront the world today as well as we do, it is because coal is still satisfying 40 per cent. of our energy demand. If we had not got that 40 per cent., if we were dependent on oil and nuclear power, how
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lamentable would be our situation. Therefore, I am very glad that the Government have now adopted an attitude of positive and sustained encouragement towards coal. I agree with what my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones said in opening this debate. In the course of his admirable speech, he said that our purpose should be to increase the output of coal to the highest possible degree.
Since the war, the Government have not always encouraged the use of coal. I had a friend in the electricity industry, Sir Robertson King. He came to nationalised electricity from a private company—I think it was the Notts and County. He became famous in the Midlands as the very able Chairman of the East Midlands Electricity Board and the very able President of Derby County Football Club. His knowledge of football and his personal experience were as valuable to Derby in their days of glory as his experience in the Notts and County was to the national boards.
In due course, Sir Robertson King became the Chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board. He told me, with some emotion, that he had proposed to the Government at that time —it was years ago—that they should make two new power stations ambidextrous, equipping them to be coal fired and oil fired, whichever should prove to be most advantageous. His proposal for coal firing was indignantly rejected, and all the firing that happened happened to him. After a few months he ceased to be the chairman of the CEGB.
I am glad to know that the Government are now encouraging the building of new, large, 2,000 megawatt power stations fired by coal and that they are helping the Electricity Board to use coal instead of oil. I believe that to be profoundly wise. They have agreed to the target which we are now discussing of 170,000 million tons for the year 2000: 150,000 from deep mined coal and 20,000 from opencast mining. For reasons that I shall give, I believe that that target is, despite what the noble Lord has just said in his eloquent and brilliantly argued speech, within the capacity of the Coal Board and I believe, with my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones, that it can be achieved and, indeed, exceeded.
There are some people who are against mining of any kind, on amenity and other

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grounds. They say that it spoils the countryside; it prevents the use of the surface of the earth for other purposes; it desolates fields and woods instead of leaving them in their state of natural beauty. When I was Minister, the opposition to opencast coal mining was particularly fierce. I had to fight honourable Members in another place who came from rural seats and I had to fight the farmers in the countryside, but the case was overwhelming. Opencast coal is of high quality. It possesses certain qualities which are essential for modern power stations. The cost of opencast production is well below that of deep mined coal. Last year, on its opencast operations, the Board made a surplus of £88 million. The damage to the countryside is far, far less than the propagandists say, and in my view is more than made good. For the land is not left devastated as with the derelict gravel pits which disfigure our land in so many places. The soil is meticulously restored to where it was; the fields are made not only as good as they were before, but very often better. Indeed, I would venture the assertion that of all the agencies which reclaim derelict and unsightly land the Coal Board is by far the most important, and that after more than 30 years of open-cast production farming has on balance benefited a good deal, while the amenity of the countryside has been improved. I hope those who oppose opencast mining will give up their opposition. They will help the nation if they do.
There are people who oppose deep-mined coal, not only because it devastates the countryside, but because they say it is wrong that men should be forced to spend their lives deep underground in this dangerous and claustrophobic job. Well, the miners are not forced to choose it; the miners volunteer. The Coal Board have no difficulty in recruiting now the high grade men they want, school leavers and older men. I took part as Minister in a very great operation of recruitment. The Board had allowed the wage rates to fall too low. In 30 months before I took office in that Department they had lost 30,000 men from the collieries of the land. By a big recruiting campaign we got back those 30,000 men in the next 30 months. We had a great battle with the chiefs of the Armed Services. We asked them to release the miners who had enlisted in
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the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. After a struggle they agreed that they would allow men to go who had been in the Forces less than six months. Why six months, I asked? Because after six months the miners were all NCOs. In the pits they had developed such resource and courage, such readiness to accept responsibility, such adaptability to unexpected situations that they were essential to the junior command of the Armed Forces.
But the miners all came back very gladly to the pits, because, while it is a dangerous job, they gloried in their work, they gloried in the danger, the adventure and the toil. I believe we can get the manpower needed to expand the coal industry as I hope it will be expanded in the next 20 years. But, of course, it is a very dangerous job, and I think we could not hope to make the policy of expansion succeed unless it had become a great deal less dangerous than it used to be. This is one factor in the Board's success of which I wish to speak.
The coal industry is dangerous in two ways, dangerous to health from dust diseases, dangerous owing to accidents. During the General Election of 1950 I went to a meeting which I shall never forget in Birmingham. As I entered the meeting hall I saw on each side of the aisle from the door to the platform rows of voters standing, chanting loudly, "We are the vermin, we are the vermin". They were protesting, understandably, against a speech made by the late Aneurin Bevan, in which he said, in a passionate but unguarded phrase, that he hated his opponents like vermin. But the chanting ceased when I explained Aneurin Bevan's story, how when he was 12 years old his father had died from pneumoconiosis, how they had had no proper compensation, how his mother had had to go out to do other people's washing to earn money to feed her children, how Aneurin himself had had to go down the pits at that tender age to help his mother, how for long years till he was a grown man he had never been able to afford a holiday. The chanting ceased.
Pneumoconiosis in those days had a very heavy incidence among miners. The Coal Board have had a long sustained and most successful campaign. By ventilation of the pits, by dust suppression devices,

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they have reduced this disease until indeed it has almost disappeared. Every year now something like 52,000 miners are X-rayed at 60 pits around the country which are representative of all the collieries, and last year the incidence of pneumoconiosis was only 1·8 per cent. That was lower than the figure for the year before, and it is still declining.
Accidents were a cause of grievous loss and suffering to the miners. Before the war 1,000 men were killed in the pits every year, five a working day, or very nearly. Severe injuries—broken backs from falling roofs, paralysis, things sometimes almost as terrible as death itself— were numbered by the thousand. Last year deaths in the pits numbered 48. True, the manpower has been greatly reduced in number. It was 1 million men before the war; now it is a quarter of a million. The accidents have been reduced, however, not to one-quarter but to one-twentieth of what they used to be. The severe injury rate last year was only 520. The immense success of the long sustained and vigorous campaign for safety in the pits has paid a splendid dividend, not least in strengthening the loyalty of the men to go down the pits. And I would say that, but for that improvement in safety, the expansion of the industry to the degree we hope for would be impossible today.
There is a second factor which strengthens the loyalty of the men. In the coal industry everybody calls it "JPAC" —the Joint Policy Advisory Committee—in which the management of the Coal Board and the trade unions meet together to debate all the policy questions that arise. It was in JPAC that the short-term target for 1985 was debated and agreed. It was in JPAC that the local incentive scheme, which had such great success last year, was worked out and was agreed. With the Government in what are called tripartite consultations, the management and the unions together have worked out this target of 170 million tons. I believe there are other industries in the country which would benefit by a JPAC. I am certain that this consultation, bilateral and tripartite, is a factor which makes possible the great expansion of the industry for which we hope.
There is a third factor, spoken of by noble Lords this afternoon: I mean the
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large-scale investment in scientific research and development. Last year the chairman of the Board said £294 million. But the Committee say that that is far too little. In Germany they are spending £80 million a year, largely furnished by the Government. I believe that the Committee are right in urging that our Government should help the Coal Board to expand research. Already it covers many things. It covers the advance predictability of faults in the coal seams; new technologies, like the drying of grass which is of great importance to our farmers; the improvement of domestic appliances for solid fuel is of great importance to our housewives. The research should be still further expanded, but that research has already made a great contribution to the progress and the efficiency of the industry.
Let those who criticise the Coal Board ponder the following facts: in 1947 the productivity of the miners, the output per man shift, was 21 cwt. In 1978 it was 43.1 cwt. It had more than doubled. Perhaps some other industries can show a similar improvement in productivity. I say that in the coal mines that is a remarkable result indeed. Research is devoted not only to the production of coal, but, as a noble Lord said this afternoon, to the utilisation of coal as well. As a result, the efficiency with which the coal is used has much improved.
When I was first Member for Derby in another place we were proud of our municipal power station. We said that it made Derby a clean town. The thermal efficiency of our municipal station was 8 per cent.: 92 per cent. of the energy of the coal went up the chimney to pollute the atmosphere of Derby. The average thermal efficiency of the Electricity Board's power stations today is 38 per cent., and in the Coal Board's research station at Leatherhead they are engaged on further improvement of thermal efficiency. They are working on what they curiously call fluidised bed combustion, and fluidised bed combustion when it succeeds will raise thermal efficiency well above the 40 per cent.
If the Coal Board have a hope of achieving what my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones asked for, something higher than the 170 million ton target on which we are all agreed, I believe it is because

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of the Coal Board's success in safety, in joint consultation, in scientific research, and in the efficiency of their working in the pits, and the efficiency of the Electricity Board. If we cannot achieve that target we shall be dependent on nuclear power, and I am one of those, if the noble Lord who preceded me will forgive me, who consider that the perils of a plutonium economy are very great.
There is a powerful vested interest behind the nuclear power plant industry. In the days when we had a Times newspaper, a journalist who called himself their technological correspondent—I never discovered who he was—predicted that in the 1980s the export of nuclear power plant would bring this country orders worth £20,000 million. Perhaps it was a pipe-dream, but in an industry of that kind there are handsome pickings for many people. But if you are exporting nuclear power plant, you are exporting the power to make nuclear weapons. Nobody denies that that is true. President Carter regards it as a great danger, and he has taken big risks with Germany and Brazil and other countries in trying to prevent them going in for nuclear power plants. If you are exporting the power to make nuclear weapons you may be exporting nuclear war; and if nuclear war once starts, who knows where it will end?
But the objections to nuclear power are more formidable than that. The noble Lord who preceded me spoke of the safety record of the nuclear industry. It is not quite so perfect if you look at the detail at Windscale. Nobody can deny that in the nuclear power plants there is a risk that radioactivity will leak. There was a leak at Windscale not so long ago, and for some months it was concealed from the Government and from the world. In a nuclear power plant there is a danger of explosion; explosion which may be a major disaster almost on the scale of the Hiroshima bomb, with tens of thousands of dead and appalling devastation.
The manager of a power plant in the United States—I think it was called Brown's Ferry, or some such name—said a year or two ago that an explosion in his plant which would have been a major catastrophe for his district had only been avoided by sheer good luck; that there
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was nothing he could do to avert the danger. There is also the unsolved problem of nuclear waste, unsolved but very serious indeed.
If there is one thing of which I am more certain than another, it is that nuclear power is not the power of the future; it is not the power that will meet mankind's demand for energy in the centuries to come. Professor Joseph Rotblat said some time ago that the nuclear epoch would be short. In UNESCO in Paris a year or two ago I heard the great French physicist Alfred Kastler say the energy of the future was solar energy, unpolluting and inexhaustible. All the physicists I know believe that solar energy is sure to come and may come very soon. We must bridge the gap until it meets the expanding demands of future generations of mankind, and for that gap I hope to the utmost possible extent we will put our faith in British coal.
4.52 p.m.
Lord HINTON of BANKSIDE: My Lords, the report of your Committee seems so good, so concise and so explicit that I wish I could claim some credit for it, but although as a Member of your Lordships' Sub-Committee F, I sat on its initial meetings, I was engaged on other business of your Lordships' House during the later stages and had no part in the preparation of what seems a model report.
In moving its adoption, the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, elaborated on it and extended it to show the implications of the problems that we are considering on the EEC countries as a whole; many noble Lords who have spoken today have usefully added to the information which is contained in the report. I am quite certain that later in the debate, when the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, speaks, he —because he spent a large amount of time and, I believe, a large amount of money, in making a detailed examination of conditions in pits—will add to the information that noble Lords have been given.
I should be wasting the time of the House if I elaborated on what has been or will be said, but I hope I may be helpful in trying to put our domestic energy problem and the energy problems of the EEC

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into a global context because energy supply and demand can only be considered globally. Many studies of this global problem have been made and, of these, I think the best was done by the World Energy Conference. With its membership of 70 countries spread all over the world, the World Energy Conference was able to call on all those member countries for information and was able to arrange for that information be to evaluated by top experts. The survey they did was projected to the year 2020 because it was felt that although in so many other forecasts the year 2000 had been taken as a terminal date, that date might be misleading because in the year 2000 the supply of oil will be in its initial stages of waning and energy supplies might therefore be still in a transitional stage.
The World Energy Conference wisely accepted the fact that all forecasts of energy demands have been wrong. Bitter experience should have taught us the truth of that in the United Kingdom. I think it would be indelicate to attach names to the committees or Ministries who have made forecasts of energy demand in the past, but it is fair to group them altogether and say that while every one of them has been wrong, some of them have been devastatingly and expensively wrong.
Accepting that fact, the World Energy Conference concluded that the best it could do was to paint a broad brush picture of the future. In doing that, one basic assumption they made was that in real terms the price of energy would double in the next 25 years. The surveys, made by the resource groups—the groups which evaluated the energy and fuel that was likely to be available—came to the conclusion that in the year 2020 the available supply would lie between 18,000 million and 23,000 million tons of oil equipment. If a higher price than the one they assumed is adopted, there will of course be more energy available and the demand for energy will almost certainly be rather less.
The scenarios for energy demand are extremely complex. They have to allow for growth in global gross economic product and they have to allow for elasticity factors for energy consumption related to GNP per capita and related to the price of energy. Those various
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scenarios can be evaluated only by the use of computer modelling which is far too complex for me to understand, but the broad brush answers that were churned out by the computers showed that globally, energy supplies can meet energy demand in the year 2020 only if world economic growth drops to a level of 3 per cent. and if there is also a high response to rising energy prices.
If one looks back over the last 50 years, world economic growth over that period growth has been at the rate of 3 per cent., but if one looks back over only 15 years, the period when oil has been grossly under-priced, the rate of growth of global economic demand has been considerably higher, just under 5 per cent. The difference between that recent artificially high rate of growth and the reduced rate of growth which can reasonably be expected will, I think, be extremely uncomfortable, and particularly uncomfortable when one remembers that the rate of growth in the old industrialised countries must be lower than 3 per cent. because the demand in the developing countries of the world will be considerably higher, and let us remember that the United Nations' forecast is that early in the next century more than half the population of the world will be living South of the equator. The figure that was assumed in the evaluations was 5·8 per cent., but in fact the developing countries are demanding between 6 and 7 per cent., and that rate of growth can be made consistent with a global rate of growth of 3 per cent. only if the rate of growth in the old industrialised countries drops below 3 per cent. I leave it to economists and politicians to say what the result of such a drop in the rate of economic growth will be.
One alarming feature of the scenarios for 2020 is that, whereas at present electricity meets 10 per cent. of the global demand for secondary energy, by the year 2020 it will have to meet about 17 per cent. of that demand. That is disturbing because, with all its factors of convenience, electricity is an extravagant user of primary energy; and that is shown by the fact that although the demand for electricity by the year 2020 has gone up by six times, the demand for primary energy to supply that quantity of electricity has gone up by 18 to 21 times.

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It seems quite inevitable that electricity must make up for much of the shortfall in oil supplies. How is that electricity to be produced? The World Energy Conference's analysis assumed that to the extent of 60 per cent. it would be met by nuclear power. I doubt whether that is a realistic figure. Apart from the delays arising from ill-informed environmental opposition, the estimates of the obtainability of virgin uranium show that there is likely to be a uranium famine before the end of the century, and the fast reactor will not be in use sufficiently early to relieve that shortage of uranium. It is only by increasing the global output of coal that the global demand for energy can reasonably be met. Already on the World Energy Conference's estimates, which assumed that nuclear power would supply 60 per cent. of the secondary energy requirements, this required that the global output of coal should be increased by between four and five times by the year 2020. In fact that is a figure that will be difficult to achieve, and the world will need every bit of coal that can be produced.
I have tried to paint this global back-cloth of energy supply and demand because I believe that it is only against such a backcloth that energy supplies can be considered. Oil and, with rather more difficulty, gas are easily transport-able, and with the provision of a suitable infrastructure it will be equally easy to transport coal. Those transportable energy sources will go to the countries which are best able to afford to pay for them. The EEC is not well placed. Its indigenous energy resources are limited. Of all the EEC countries we are in the most favourable position, but while it is a political and economic judgment which I should not venture to make, I have some private doubts as to whether it would be economically wise for us extravagantly to use our indigenous energy supplies while lying off-shore of a Europe which was starved for energy.
The conclusion is that coal economically produced should be as much an international commodity as oil is today. Coal has been thought of in the past far too much on a domestic, national basis. It must be thought of as an international commodity, and we ought to remember
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that even though we in the United Kingdom may not in the next 15 years need for our home market all the coal that we can produce, it takes 10 years to open up a new coal face, and we ought to expand our capacity for mining coal at competitive prices to meet a demand which will inevitably grow.
How is a market to be found for coal which we shall not be needing during the next 15 years? There are, I think, some possibilities of doing this. It could of course be done by Government subvention. On the other hand, our present uncompetitive coal prices reflect the cost of coal which is raised from old mines. Would it be possible, either by subsidy or by creating a body which operated only new mines and gave priority to exports, to overcome the difficulty and so to find an export market for the coal which we undoubtedly have?
5.7 p.m.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, speaking last in the debate before we hear from the Government, I wish to say what a privilege I regarded it to be associated with the report and the Committee, and what a remarkable achievement it is of your Lordships' House to have been able to mount such a Committee at all. What other Legislature in the world could command the services of an ex-professor of chemistry from Newcastle University, with many years experience of industrial research in the field of coal, coke, and tar; the ex-chairman of the Atomic Energy Authority; and the ex-chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board? I regard it as a privilege to have sat under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, and to have worked alongside my two very distinguished colleagues, the noble Lords, Lord Sherfield and Lord Hinton of Bank-side, who certainly was there, and away only for the last few days, despite his modest disclaimer.
My points will really be emphasising what has already been said. My first point is that there are no magic numbers in nature, in economics, or in history. There is nothing special about the year 2000. It bulks as a kind of unattainable date in our imagination because we have always thought of the next century, and written it off, as if it was like the Greek

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calends—a date that would never come. But, my Lords, it is coming closer. It is only 21 years ahead. If I live to the year 2000 I shall be only two years older than the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, who celebrated his 90th birthday this year, and I shall be two years younger than the noble Lords, Lord Shinwell and Lord Barnby, who are active in your Lordships' House. Although I do not know whether I shall reach such an advanced age and be active at that time, I cannot rule it out as a possibility that in 21 years' time, if the hereditary principle is still in operation, your Lordships' children may be listening to me saying, "I told you so." We really must realise that it is only 21 years ahead, and of those, 10 years would be taken up with the necessary planning of any new mines over and above what are planned today because of the lead times. We have only until 1985 to make provision for anything that might happen between 1985 and the year 2000. We have not got 21 years. We have, at the moment, only about eight or nine years before we must start taking some very difficult decisions—a point to which I shall return later.
The noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, suggested that the Coal Board was being treated as a sort of dinosaur, and that the sooner it got down to the job of doing some research and development—I hope I am not misrepresenting what he said —the better. I do not know what his source of information is, but if your Lordships will forgive the play on words, I would say that it is a bit of a dino-source, because it belongs to a very long time ago. The Coal Board is in the current stage of consummating the active research and development of years past, all of which is coming to fruition now. It is an inspiration to go along the 500-yard coal-face of a mine like Kellingley, working an 8-ft. seam, and to see it manned by only 15 men. I shall come back to the productivity of these faces later on, but I have seen these advanced technology faces under innumerable conditions. The thickest face you can work is about 12 feet, and the thinnest face you can work is about 4 feet. The steepest face is in Seafield Colliery under the Firth of Forth, which is also a very wet mine. As the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, said, it is a very steep one, too, and going up the face is rather like an obstacle
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race up the Idwal Slabs, in North Wales. It is a cross between a combat course in the Army and a rather strenuous VD, I should say, in rock-climbing terms.
The technical problems of providing us with the world's most up-to-date coal industry within the next ten years have been solved. It is a question of bringing them all together. Bevercotes, which tried to bring too much together too early on, was a technical mistake, but it will come right in the end. Now, a rather more gentle approach is indicated, and your Lordships can see a particular technology being worked out in one mine and another technology in another mine. The mistake of trying to put them all together in the same mine before each has been worked out independently is no longer being made. But, given a decade, they will all come together in one set of mines, and your Lordships will be quite surprised at the potential productivity of our mines then.
We shall always need a light, transportable liquid source of power for the internal combustion engine. We shall always need gas in the mains for the housewife, and for domestic heating. I am quite satisfied in my own mind that the technological problems of converting coal into a light, transportable source of fuel and into gas have been solved, that the pilot plants are in operation now, but that the economic problems of coupling this to the wellbeing of the engineering industry which is going to turn out the plants when we need them have not been solved. Already the Americans are putting down full-scale plants in America based on pilot plants in this country; and, unless we ourselves put down full-scale plants, when the time is ripe to order them we shall have to go to America for the know-how, as so often before. My Lords, that is something "up with which we ought not to put".
Of course, a new process can be killed economically by the cost accountants. If you are going to cost coal at the national average into a gasification plant and then price gas out at the price at which the Gas Corporation can buy natural gas, the coal being much too high in price and the gas much too low, then you will kill the process. Such new plants ought to have the benefit of being sited close to the

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cheapest source of coal, like Selby; should take coal in at the cost of production or the transfer price, and deliver gas out to the Gas Corporation at an economic figure, if necessary with the Government having to bridge the gap for the time being. If you want to get a new thing going you must pay a premium for doing it; and if we want these plants, the products of an engineering industry which is standing by waiting to make them, then we must provide for the prosperity of that engineering industry, and this is not being done at the moment.
Then I come to the problem of productivity in these mines, because the potential production per man-shift out of the mines is much higher than the actual production, which is much too low. One hears figures of production in some mines being only 40 per cent. of potential. In many cases, during the difficult phases of getting the bugs out of the coal-face, making the power shearers and the armoured-face-conveyors work, it was regarded at one time as quite a triumph to be able to drive a power loader once across the coal-face and back in the course of a shift. The thing could be done twice, but when people have become accustomed to doing it once, then they begin to think perhaps you can get through it in four hours and get good pay. Maybe a four-hour stint, with two stints per shift, is the right way to run a mine in the future. And I have in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Baker, said about the conditions underground in a mine. They certainly are not as dangerous as they used to be, but they are very often uncomfortably hot and wet and, though one does the best to kill dust and so on, they are non-ideal and we have to wake up to the possibilities of rethinking the way we deal with workers underground from the standpoint of what we demand of them.
If they can run a power loader to and fro once per stint and then hand over to a second stint, let me do some costing, more or less in my head. The labour cost is about 50 per cent. of the price of coal, and the standing charges are about another 50 per cent. So if you have one unit of each and get one unit of coal then you have got two units of cost per unit of output. Now supposing you doubled your labour costs by running two shifts. Then
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that is two units of cost; you have still got your one unit of indirect cost as before, total three with two units of coal out. Your cost of production is down from two units to 1.5. That is the advantage you get of taking highly expensive machinery and driving it to saturation by employing more shifts and more people on it instead of fewer people. This involves entirely new thinking and its philosophy must be the subject of more publicity. The social pattern of people at work has in fact got to be re-thought.
So we come to the crunch—the crunch in 1985 as I reckon it—when we are going to be asked to make very significant investments in further coal production at a time when there may be a glut of coal, to be taken into account with the current supplies of oil. This was dealt with very adequately by my noble friend Lord Hinton and it was also dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones. It is going to be a very difficult decision. I am not sure that under the present Party political system either Party is really at all well placed to take this type of nitty-gritty decision to go on investing money in something which is going to give you future productivity when you already have an excess in this day and age and there are other demands for the money. Exactly how that will be handled I do not know, but this is the sort of situation where as a nonagenarian I shall appear before your Lordships' House, if I ever do, and say, "I told you so. I told you we would not make the investment and we have not; now look at the mess we are in."
So far as total fuel requirements and total fuel supplies are concerned, I very much share the doubts of my noble friend Lord Hinton. I too have watched all these calculations going forward and I too have been disillusioned by the very large errors in the calculations. I too have been disillusioned by all the wrong decisions we have taken. We panicked into too much nuclear after the Six Day War and we have been living with the consequences ever since. I honestly cannot go along with the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Baker, in thinking that the nuclear industry is a sort of shadowy collection of sinister people making enormous sums of money on the side. As an ex-member of one of the syndicates that used to build nuclear power plants, my principal concern was not to make illicit profits but to

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avoid losses through technological factors not going according to plan. The nuclear industry in this country is not a very enormous industry, nor do I think it should be, as I have said before in one of your Lordships' debates. When you have a new technology growing as fast as this is growing you ought not to make an over-investment and, to my mind, I would not invest any more in nuclear than would suffice to keep going and prosperous the relatively small nuclear industry we have got.
Of course, the first call on its expertise and skills ought to be the fast reactor. I cannot tilt a lance at this stage at the noble Lord, Lord Noel-Baker. I have said it all before in your Lordships' House. You cannot make bombs out of plutonium from the fast reactor. It has the wrong composition. The weapon-grade plutonium must be made from the very earliest-stage plutonium of the thermal reactor before the plutonium itself is over-radiated with neutrons which turns it from plutonium 329 to plutonium 240 which is spontaneously fissionable and keeps the atom bomb fizzing off, as it were, instead of waiting, until it is exploded with one bang. It takes an enormous intellectual effort to design something to go off as an atomic bomb. It does not go off easily. It must be designed to do so. I do not think you can get weapon-grade plutonium—though I am not an expert on this—out of the type of fast reactor that we have in mind.
I think that we ought to lay our plans for the possibility of our requirements of coal having been under-estimated by all the people who have worked on it in the past. I think that we ought to be prepared, if necessary, to find very substantial further investment which, in one sense, cannot be wrong; because if you over-invest in high-productivity equipment you always have the opportunity to release low-productivity equipment and send it to the scrap yard. The more that the mines are bang up to date then the easier it will be technologically—though not socially; we must have proper plans for doing this, that is to close down some of the older mines. In a sense, investment in this field cannot be wrong. By the pricking in my thumbs I believe we have under-estimated our coal requirements for the future rather than the reverse.
5.22 p.m.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, with the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, we are privileged today to have before us this important and informative report by Sub-Committee "F" of the European Communities Committee, and we are fortunate in the opportunity afforded the House by my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones to debate the coal industry in the United Kingdom as well as the Committee's report. If I may say so, I think it has been a most notable debate even by the standards of your Lordships' House. We have been fortunate to hear speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside, with his unrivalled knowledge, and by the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, the new chairman of the Sub-Committee. May I say how much I welcome the instructive and informed speech of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona. My only regret is that we have not had the advantage of a speech from the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, who has been held up by weather or trains or, probably, both. It is the first debate on energy matters in which I have taken part in which the noble Earl has not taken part; and I miss his presence.
The Committee are to be congratulated upon the wide-ranging scope of their inquiries. Here I should like to join with my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones in paying a tribute to the late Lady Tweedsmuir who instigated the idea of this report. The coal industry in this country has seen many changes during the 30 years since nationalisation. A lot of things are said these days, I think thoughtlessly, by members of the public about nationalisation. I welcome the speech about nationalisation, putting this into perspective, by my noble friend Lord Noel-Baker, a former Minister. It was right, also, I think, of him to stress in his moving speech how conditions have improved in the pits compared with the old days.
In the early post-war years after nationalisation, the industry enjoyed a boom period and was borne along by a tide of optimism. Then, in the 'fifties and 'sixties, came the strong competition from cheap and plentiful supplies of oil, supplies which seemed, on planning time scales at least, to be limitless. In the face of this competition the industry underwent severe contraction, the effects

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of which are still very much with us today. This, I think, must be the responsibility both of this Party and of the Party of noble Lords opposite. It is a mistake which has been fully recognised now. There lies before us another exciting period in the history of the industry. Reserves of oil and natural gas are recognised to be finite but reserves of coal are still very extensive; the long period of decline of the coal industry has been reversed and it is once more becoming a major growth industry. The prospect is a bright one, as the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, said, although, I noted, with some qualification.
The Government regard the tripartite machinery as an essential feature of the forward planning of the industry. It is probably true to say that without it the present investment programme in Plan for Coal would not have been instituted so successfully. The Government in endorsing the Plan for Coal demonstrated their confidence in the future of the coal industry by making available the massive capital funds that the NCB needed to implement their ambitious and imaginative programme. They thereby had the courage and the commitment—the only Government so to do in Western Europe —to give their blessing to a strategy for expanding the coal industry. This factor should not be overlooked by noble Lords in considering the pace of the industry's development in the future.
As the Committee noted, progress with Plan for Coal was reviewed in 1976. By then, we had experience of the effects of the unprecedented increases in the price of oil which had caused Governments throughout the world to look afresh, often for the first time, at their energy programmes. There were some changes in composition but the primary objective of 135 million tons of output by 1985, of which 120 million tons will come from deep mining, remained unchanged. It was at that time that the NCB also took its look forward to the year 2000, identified a possible range of demand for coal and proposed a planning objective of 170 million tons output by that date. The Government confirmed their support for Plan for Coal and said that they intended
"to bring the National Coal Board's 'Plan 2000' into its consideration of long-term national policy … with the Energy Commission".
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My noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones said that he thought that Plan for Coal set only a modest target for expansion. Far from it! The coal industry, in common with other energy industries, cannot change rapidly. The lead times in creating new capacity and bringing it into full production are long—of the order of 10 years for completely new mines on green-field sites. There can be no sudden transition from decline to expansion. Collieries and faces once closed are entirely lost. The effects of contraction and under-investment will continue to be felt for some years after a decision is taken to reverse the process. The British coal industry is the only one in Europe now having a strategy for expansion, and thus is faced with a formidable task in building up expertise, management, resources and morale to enable it to undertake this new and important investment programme. The target of 135 million tons output by 1985 was, therefore, ambitious and imaginative and clearly called for a great deal of confidence, drive, enthusiasm and optimism on the part of Government, management and the unions.
But, my Lords, would it be practical to aim higher, as my noble friend suggested? The majority of the investment called for under Plan for Coal is now either in progress or has been approved by the Board. The review of Plan for Coal in 1976, as published in the tripartite group report, showed that a contribution from new mines had been revised downwards from 20 million tons to 10 million tons. The target of Plan for Coal was still regarded as obtainable because more additional capacity was being developed, and existing mine exhaustions were expected to be less than initially thought.
The slower rate of development of entirely new capacity has important lessons, I suggest, for the future because further expansion will almost certainly see an increasing proportion of additional capacity coming from new mines. Some new mines are likely to be developed in areas new to mining, as has been said today. The growing public interest in the environmental and ecological implications in any new developments, as was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, must bring into question the ease with which planning and environmental aspects can be properly dealt.

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The Committee in their report have expressed concern that the Government are not supporting a target nearer to 200 million tons of output in the year 2000 and that we may consequently find ourselves with less energy than we need to sustain the economy. The Committee have suggested:
"that if a larger, more imaginative programme for the coal industry could be established … in the United Kingdom, there would be a strong case for better investment".
A programme that involves the creation of 4 million tons coal production capacity each year between the mid-1980s and the end of the century—most of it in the form of entirely new mines—can hardly be said to lack imagination. Moreover, in the Green Paper the Government showed themselves to be fully alive to the need to ensure ready markets for the coal produced, as well as the need to produce the coal.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, will my noble friend allow me to make one comment at this point? The Committee was very much influenced by the evidence that was given about the expansion of the Polish coal industry. It has gone up— I think I am right in saying—to over 300 million tons of production a year from a figure that was lower than ours. They have done this over a relatively short time. So we were not putting forward what we thought were entirely unrealistic ideas, but rather ideas that had been adopted by the Polish industry and indeed include the target put forward by the Coal Board.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I note what my noble friend has said. The conditions are probably different in the Polish industry. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, asked whether it would not be sensible to regard the contraction in demand for coal currently as a reason for halting investment in new production capacity now and building it up later. This was of course a very interesting argument, and one well worth making. It would not be realistic, though, to run down investment now with the intention of building it up later. It takes time to build up exploration, planning teams and resources. They can be used efficiently only by a steady programme of creation of new capacity. Moreover, a cessation of the investment programme now would jeopardise the
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prospects of achieving even 170 million tons of output by the end of the century.
The National Coal Board, in its evidence to the Committee, said that it would
"be fully stretched indeed in bringing forward and approving and commissioning year by year the equivalent of two 2 million ton mines every year from now to the end of the century. To do more would be an enormous task".
The Government believe very firmly in the future of the coal industry. But at the same time, they see the right strategy as one which the industry can achieve while steadily building up the experience and resources which will enable further expansion to take place if that is thought necessary as part of the national energy policy.
My noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones mentioned too the question of the Generating Board and coal burn. The CEGB have a statutory obligation to produce electricity at minimum cost to the consumer. This is achieved through the merit order system, where demand is met from those stations with the lowest variable costs at any given time. Fuel cost and station efficiency largely determine merit order position. The coal burn level depends on electricity demand, the amount and efficiency of coal fired capacity and the relative fuel prices, particularly of course of oil. Nearly two-thirds of the CEGB's capacity is coal fired at present.
The CEGB coal burn in 1978–79 is expected to be about 72 million tons, including about three mtce resulting from the assisted coal burn scheme. The range of flexibility quoted by the Generating Board in evidence to the Select Committee of 55 to 85 mtce annual coal burn in 1985 does not imply that coal burn will vary from one end of this range to the other at the drop of a hat. In fact, the Board expects coal burn to lie in the range of 65 to 70 mtce in the early 1990s. It could be higher if the coal is available at the right price. They expect to have the capability to burn 90 million tons in 1990. Additional coal burning capacity is not therefore necessarily going to be required to increase coal burn up to the early 1990s.
The Secretary of State for Energy is committed to keeping the development of our energy policy under regular review.

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It is also an essential element of the strategy outlined in the Green Paper that options should be kept open as long as possible. The present investment programme for the coal industry cannot be said to be diminishing any options for the future. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, also rightly mentioned the question of imports. Imports of coal in 1978 were about the same as for 1977 and stood at just over 2 million tons and, in view of our own total output of about 120 million tons, do not take up a very large proportion of our internal market. Even so, every effort is being made by the Government to reduce the level.
There are two main contributions to the imports: namely, steam coal under a single contract to the CEGB, which accounts for about 1 million tons a year, and coking coal imports for the BSC, which amounts to about 1½million tons a year. For this winter, the CEGB have agreed to cease imports under their contract and to find alternative ways of disposing of the coal. So far as coking coal is concerned, discussions are currently taking place between the NCB, the BSC and Ministers to see how these imports might be kept to an absolute minimum. Of course there are certain technical difficulties, about which the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, knows, with our own coking coal.
With regard to imports, again, the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, mentioned Australian steam coal and the CEGB have a contract for one million tons a year of Australian steam coal which was entered into in 1974 as a result of the miners' strike. I am not trying to make a political point here. It runs to the 1980s. To minimise transport costs, the coal is shipped via large Continental ports, and for this winter the CEGB have agreed to dispose of coal on the Continent and not tranship it to the United Kingdom.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, is the noble Lord going to leave that subject now? My real point about imports was not so much concerning imports into this country as into Europe as a whole. I am quite aware that imports into this country are relatively insignificant in terms of impact on demand; but the point is that the
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EEC is importing very substantial amounts of coal, I believe, and one of the ways in which we might use excess capacity available in this country is to persuade our partners to take some coal from us.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am glad the noble Lord made that point, because it enables me to say that during 1978 exports of coal were nearly half a million tons higher than in 1977 and stood at 2·26 million tons. That was achieved in spite of very severe competition from third country coal, the prices being very much lower than the National Coal Board's prices. Of course, exports consist largely of steam coal and the rest is mainly anthracite dust. In addition there are about half a million tons of coke exports, but there are few opportunities to export coking coal since we produce insufficient of the best quality—that is not our fault but the fault of geology.
I should like to say just a few words about research and development. The Committee were concerned that very little Government finance is being devoted to coal industry R and D. Your Lordships will be aware from the evidence of my honourable friend Mr. Eadie, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that the Committee completed their examination ahead of publication of a report Coal Technology: Future Developments by the working party on research and development in the coal industry's tripartite group. The Government agreed, on the basis of the Board's recommendations, to provide up to £20 million for the development of coal gasification and liquefaction in the period to March 1983.
My noble friend Lord Noel-Baker said he thought that not enough was being spent on R and D. The National Coal Board's total expenditure on R and D over the five years to 1983 will be well in excess of £100 million.
The noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, referred to the question of gasification. This is a very important development. It was not a snap decision by the Government: it grew out of the exercises firstly within the R and D working party and subsequently, its successor, the tripartite group. The working party addressed itself to the task of identifying the technologies this country would eventually need to supplement

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supplies of natural gas, motor fuels and chemical feedstocks as we moved out of self-sufficiency in oil and natural gas around the turn of the century.
The Government are also giving financial support to the National Coal Board to participate in projects under the auspices of the International Energy Agency, recognising the importance of international collaboration on particularly expensive demonstration projects. I believe this underlines the importance the Government attach to the research and development effort on coal technology for the future of the industry.
The noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, whose contribution I listened to with great interest—and, if I may, I should like to congratulate him on having been appointed chairman of the Committee—raised the question of the fast reactor. Research of fast reactors has been under way in the United Kingdom for over 20 years and a prototype is in operation at Dounreay. The Government are reviewing their policy in this area, including the possible construction of a commercial-scale demonstration fast reactor. No decisions have yet been taken, but any proposal to build a reactor of this kind will be subject to a wide-ranging public inquiry. The Government are considering what might be the most appropriate arrangements and timing for such an inquiry.
Before concluding my remarks, I should like to say something briefly about the endeavours being made within the framework of the European Community to provide support for the preservation and development of coal industries of Member countries. The European Community has recognised the importance of the Community's coal industries but so far Community funds provide only for a limited amount of financial support. This has not been for lack of any effort on our part. In fact, United Kingdom Ministers have pressed very hard on the Council of Ministers to secure recognition that the Community's coal industries need support if they are to make their full contribution to the Community's economic wellbeing.
During the last few years, the Commission have striven hard to meet the various interests involved and have put forward four new coal proposals but only the most modest of these, and one which
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involves no finance, has been agreed. That is a scheme of surveillance of third country imports of steam coal. Under it, the volume and price of imports are monitored on a quarterly basis and the results reported to the Community; but there is no provision for action should a potentially dangerous or damaging situation reveal itself.
The noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, mentioned the question also of Community coal. Although the Government have given strong support to individual coal proposals, other member States have sought to link coal with other aspects of energy policy such as oil refining. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that he is not prepared to make concessions in major areas of energy policy so as to secure some minor advantage for our coal industry since the proposals really have been very modest and the net benefit to us would be very small.
Despite this lack of progress so far, the Government intend to keep pressing the case for coal either through the proposals on the table or through a new approach. For example, we have suggested that there might be support for coal consumption near the point of production so as to minimise the very heavy transport costs often associated with coal utilisation. I can assure your Lordships that no effect will be spared in seeking proper Community recognition and support for the Community's coal industries.
I should like to say a brief word about the environment, because that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, and by my noble friend Lord Noel-Baker. Undoubtedly, great damage has been caused in the past, when coal was won with a blatant disregard for the environment, and the scars remain for all to see, as my noble friend Lord Noel-Baker reminded us in his moving speech. But we should not judge the future by the past. The National Coal Board are making great efforts to reduce to a minimum the environmental impact of their activities. Indeed, they have now acclaimed experts at restoration of land after opencast working, and in some cases the final result of their efforts is an improvement, as my noble friend said, on even the original state of the land. In their new

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projects, such as Selby, architects are employed to harmonise the workings with the environment and efforts are made to dispose of waste as unobtrusively as possible or, as at Selby, to use it to provide landscaped screening.
I think the Select Committee are right to express their opinion about the future as they see it, and to question the part coal will have to play in our future energy strategy. There can be different views, such as the CEGB's view on coal burn or coal targets favoured by the Select Committee. The Government are willing to examine all these views. They are committed to an open debate on energy policy and to a thorough discussion in the Energy Commission; and they welcome the contribution made by the Select Committee to this process. I can assure your Lordships that the Government remain committed to coal playing its part, and that in setting future planning objectives for the industry they will pay full regard to the needs of national energy policy.
5.50 p.m.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I should like, first, to say that it has been a privilege to take part in this debate and to have so many able people taking part in it. A very unexpected speech, and one which I greatly appreciated, came from my noble friend, Lord Noel-Baker. Certainly, I never thought when this Motion was put down that it would induce Lord Noel-Baker to get up, and I personally am very grateful to him for having taken part in the debate.
With regard to the main subject of the debate, I thank my noble friend Lord Strabolgi for his reply. He will forgive me if I say that I never expect from the Department of Energy a reply which is anything other than somewhat on the defensive. This report was not meant to be an attack on the policy of the Department of Energy. It was meant to be a clear analysis by the Committee of what we saw was happening, with proposals which we hoped would encourage the Department of Energy. I hope that the Department of Energy will still consider that this is meant to be an attempt to encourage them, and is not meant to be a criticism.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend. I did not think that my speech was defensive, and I am sorry if he thinks so. It is not our policy to be defensive. In fact, I thought it was rather an adventurous speech, and not in the least defensive. We are, however, realistic.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for what he said, but I must point out that the opinion elsewhere is very different from the kind of opinion that we get from the Department of Energy.
I have here a resolution of the European Coal and Steel Community's Consultative Committee, which met at Luxembourg on 30th November last, and in this they said:
"Despite the continuing weakness of the Community's coal industry's market, imports of coal from third countries have risen in the past four years from under 30 million tons to 46 million tons and a further increase is likely".
They go on:
"Wider ranging measures should be supported by the Community as a whole, as a matter of solidarity, to prevent a further deterioration of the position of the coal industry and to avoid the danger of irreversible closures of production capacities.".
This is what in the Committee we were afraid of. This is exactly the point: these closures are irreversible. We implore the Government in this country to increase their targets, and, not only that, but to urge the Community to do the same, because the Community's targets are even more deplorably low. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

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