Sitting of 22 March 1978

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to empower the British Transport Docks Board to construct, at Derrythorpe and East Butterwick, works consisting of mooring dolphins with interconnecting walkways, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by the Secretary of State—

  (a) in reimbursing the Board with such proportion of the costs, charges and expenses reasonably incurred and properly paid by them in connection with the preparation, obtaining and passing of the said Act as is attributable to the provisions of the said Act relating to those works, and

  (b) in reimbursing or idemnifying the Board in respect of expenditure or liabilities incurred by the Board under the said Act in connection with those works.—[Mr. Horm.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

    Singapore
    Mr. Clemitsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will seek to pay an official visit to Singapore.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Evan Luard): My right hon. Friend has no present plans to do so.
    Mr. Clemitson: When my hon. Friend or my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary visits Singapore, will he tell Mr. Lee Kuan Yew that over 80 hon. Members of this House have signed an Early-Day Motion protesting at the detention of people without trial in his country? Will my hon. Friend, as a champion of human rights, protest about the continued detention without trial of those who were originally detained under Operation Cold Store in 1963 and are still in prison, 15 years later?
    Mr. Luard: I hope that Mr. Lee Kuan Yew carefully studies the Order Paper of the House of Commons and is therefore aware of the considerable concern that exists in this House on the matter. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House nearly two years ago, he believes that Mr. Lee Kuan Yew is well aware of our views on this question.
    Mr. George Rodgers: Does my hon. Friend agree that the detentions took place at a time when we had responsibility in that area? Do we not retain a moral obligation to intervene at this stage?
    Mr. Luard: The Internal Security Council of which we were at that time a member was dissolved in 1963. The detention orders then made were for only two years and they have been renewed since. We therefore cannot take any responsibility for the present detention of these people.

    Disarmament (Programme of Action)
    Mr. James Lamondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response he has had to the draft Programme of Action on Disarmament for the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament.
    Mr. George Rodgersasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reactions he has received from other Governments to the draft Programme of Action on Disarmament for the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. David Owen): The draft Programme of Action has been co-sponsored by nine other Western States, has the general support of several others, and now forms the basic Western position paper for this part of the Final Document of the Special Session.
    Mr. Lamond: Since the first point in this excellent draft programme is always concerned with the halting and reversal of the nuclear arms race, will my right hon. Friend consider pressing the Government to make sure that a decision about the development and deployment of the neutron bomb is not made until the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament has had an opportunity to get off to a good start in the best of all possible environments?
    Dr. Owen: As I understand it, even if the decision were taken immediately to produce the bomb, it would be nearly two years before it could be deployed. A rather misleading impression has been created about the neutron bomb. It is not a separate category of weapon but is a modified design of nuclear warhead. The point of developing such a warhead as compared with those that both sides already have would be to maintain the military effectiveness of the weapon against heavily protected forces, especially armoured formations, while reducing the risk of collateral damage and injuries outside the target area.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does my right hon. Friend agree that since the United Kingdom is a member of the NATO Alliance,
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    which has nuclear arms, it seems absurd that we should possess our own nuclear weapon? Would not this be a favourable opportunity to make a practical gesture by renouncing the use of this independent weapon, since no one seems to know in what circumstances we would be prepared to use it?
    Dr. Owen: I have never believed that progress in disarmament can be achieved by major unilateral decisions. That is not to say that each side in any multilateral disarmament does not have to make progress simultaneously, and often progress does come from an ability to move from one possibility before another. But I have always believed that the whole strategy of nuclear deterrence is to deter, and that relates to the credibility of being able to use a weapon. In the case of the British nuclear weapon, one of its advantages is that there is a multi-decision point, so that it could always be envisaged as being used only in circumstances in which all of our allies were involved. This multi-decision point adds to the deterrent value.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there needs now to be a supreme effort by Governments to reduce the build-up of the arms race? Would not the cause of world peace be better served if the resources of East and West were diverted to help solve the problems of the poor in the undeveloped areas rather than being wasted on this vast build-up of military expenditure?
    Dr. Owen: I agree, but one must look at both sides of the issue. Whilst reasonable demands are being made by my hon. Friends about our weapon systems, we must also look at those being developed by the Warsaw Pact countries, in particular the new SS20.
    Mr. Townsend: Will the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary discuss with our European allies the reality that if we lack conventional forces we lower the nuclear threshold?
    Dr. Owen: I do not disagree with that at all.
    Mr. Fernyhough: As my right hon. Friend will be aware, both the super-Powers contend that they already have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire world many times over. What is

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    the purpose of adding to the number of murderous weapons when we can already, if we so desire and are stupid enough, make a complete graveyard of the entire world?
    Dr. Owen: I agree with my right hon. Friend. There is a gross overkill capacity of nuclear megatonnage all over the world. I think, therefore, that there is a great necessity for a reduction in all forms of weapons, but particularly nuclear weapons. This is one of the major objectives of the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks, which I hope will be successfully concluded in a few months' time. A contribution to that is being made by the comprehensive test ban negotiations, of which we are part.

    USSR (Psychiatric Hospital Prisoners)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has studied the report by Amnesty International concerning the imprisonment of workers in psychiatric hospitals in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and if he will make representations in these matters to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. Luard: Reports of the misuse of psychiatry for political purposes are a matter of serious concern. The Government have made private representations to the Soviet Government on this and other questions involving human rights, and my right hon. Friend has publicly expressed his views on the general principles at stake on many occasions.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is the first known occasion, for a very long time, anyhow, on which ordinary workers in the Soviet Union are being treated in this sadistic fashion? Will he continue to make his protests to the Soviet Union? Moreover, will he consider consulting our own TUC in order that it may make representations to the trade union people that it has entertained from time to time?
    Mr. Luard: I have already said that I agree with my hon. Friend that this is a very serious matter. I have explained that we have made our views known. It has been reported in the Press that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, when in the Soviet
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    Union. took the opportunity of expressing his great concern on this matter.
    Mr. Henderson: Is the Minister aware that there is widespread concern about this matter? Has he had any representations from the British Medical Association about its views on doctors who allow their medical skills to be prostituted for political purposes?
    Mr. Luard: Many individual medical practitioners and psychiatrists in this country and other parts of the world have already expressed their profound concern about the matter. I understand that they have expressed their concern to their professional colleagues in the Soviet Union.
    Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I had the opportunity of reading the relevant papers in translation before they were printed in this country, and that the workers involved are not in ideological conflict with the Soviet Union? What they wish to do is to form free trade unions without being connected with the State, in precisely the way that we have free trade unions in this country.
    Is my hon. Friend also aware that some Conservative Members will undoubtedly try to use this situation and defend the rights of workers in the Soviet Union, though they did not defend the rights of the Grunwick workers and other workers involved in the struggle in this country?
    Mr. Luard: I agree with my hon. Friend that one of the most disturbing features of this and one or two other actions that have been reported in recent months is that it looks as though this is a deliberate attempt to suppress the rights of workers to join in a free association of free trade unions of the kind to which we are accustomed in this country. It must be a matter of grave concern to the whole House if the detention of people, allegedly on psychiatric grounds, can be used as a substitute for arbitrary detention as a means of keeping out of the way undesirable political opponents.

    Uganda
    Mr. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Great Britain's relations with Uganda.
    Mr. Luard: I have nothing to add to the reply that my hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle) on 25th January. We have no plans to restore relations.
    Mr. Townsend: When will the Government put an end to the shameful Stansted shuttle? Is the Minister aware that the terms of trade between Britain and Uganda are still three-to-one in favour of Uganda? Are the Government working towards mandatory arms sanctions against Uganda? If not, why not?
    Mr. Luard: The hon. Member knows that we do not sell any arms to Uganda; nor do any of our friends and allies. To institute total trade sanctions against Uganda would be a very serious step to take, which we have not so far taken against any other country, however grave the violations of human rights.
    The matter of the Stansted airlift is still under consideration. I hope that an announcement will be made fairly soon.
    Mr. Powell: Does Great Britain have any relations with Uganda? Will the Minister explain to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) that it is the United Kingdom which has relations with other countries?
    Mr. Luard: Yes, I agree. It is the United Kingdom which has no relations with Uganda at present.
    Mr. Thorpe: Is it not a fact that our main relations now with Uganda consist of the weekly airlift of luxury products which go to the elite of President Amin? Is he aware that nine months ago I was told that Her Majesty's Government were continuously looking into the difficult technical points which had to be overcome and that an announcement would be made? How much longer do we have to wait?
    Mr. Luard: There are serious legal problems about cutting off these flights. They are being very carefully examined. The legal complexities are being looked into. I hope that it will be possible to make an announcement fairly soon.

    Horn of Africa
    Mr. William Sheltonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will now raise with the Security Council, as a threat to
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    world peace, the increasing number of Cuban soldiers in the Horn of Africa.
    Dr. Owen: Following the Somali withdrawal from the Ogaden, we believe that there is no case for a continued Cuban presence in the area and that their troops should be withdrawn.
    Mr. Shelton: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the extraordinary and appalling report in The Times this morning, which purports to describe a massacre occurring in Addis Ababa, under the headline
    "Boy of 14 shot dead after being tortured in Ethiopian red terror "?
    Has the right hon. Gentleman any corroborative evidence of that? The House must be greatly concerned about reports such as this. Does it remind the right hon. Gentleman, as it does me, of what happened in Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge moved in? Is he aware that apparently the Norwegian and Swedish ambassadors have made representations to the Foreign Minister of Ethiopia? Does he think that there is anything that the Government can do to make the strongest representations along the same lines?
    Dr. Owen: I made very strong representations when I saw the Deputy Foreign Minister only a few weeks ago about human rights in that country. It is a matter of grave concern.
    I read with great concern the reports to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I have no corroborative evidence. I have asked for a detailed report. In the light of that report I shall consider whether representations should be made.
    Mr. Litterick: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Cuban troops in Ethiopia are there at the invitation of the Ethiopian Government? Does he further agree that there is a certain inconsistency between the Conservative Party's attitude towards the presence of Cuban troops in Ethiopia and its former attitude towards the presence of British troops in Oman to support a manifestly puppet Government?
    Dr. Owen: We have always stood by the OAU principle of respecting territorial integrity and believing that boundaries should be changed by negotiations and discussions.

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    My hon. Friend is right in saying that any sovereign nation is entitled to call in troops, although I do not think that anyone can believe that that can be done with impunity without changing the balance of forces in the area. I think that the situation has been resolved, in that the territorial dispute no longer exists following the withdrawal from Somalia, but few people would believe that it is right to retain that large amount of troops in the area. The OAU is against troops from outside being brought into African territory.
    Mr. Luce: I have just returned from the Horn of Africa. Does the Foreign Secretary not agree that it is essential that Western nations should work with the African nations to seek the removal of Soviet and Cuban intervention in the Horn of Africa? In the light of this, will the British Government take a lead in providing humanitarian, economic and other assistance to Somalia? Will he, above all, take a lead in exposing at the United Nations the nature of the Soviet and Cuban support for the Ethiopian regime, which appears to show no respect for human rights?
    Dr. Owen: We are concerned at the suffering that the conflict has caused, and we responded immediately to requests from the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and other bodies. We have already been able to get some supplies there and we shall consider any further requests. But I agree that the main objective of our foreign policy should be to work with African States, which themselves are very opposed to outside interference in African affairs. It is a fundamental principle of OAU activity that they should try to develop the cohesion and strength to solve their own difficulties.
    Mr. Flannery: When my right hon. Friend rightly raises the danger of Cuban troops in the Horn of Africa, will he seriously consider speaking to the American State Department about the presence of 40,000 American troops in the Guantanamo base in Cuba, against the will of the Cuban people? Most Opposition Members have forgotten that they are there, by might.
    Dr. Owen: There is a long-standing dispute between Cuba and the United States about the status of the Guanta-
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    namo base. It is a reminder of the fact that there are still American troops on that island. That is an issue between the two Governments and not one into which I have any wish to be drawn.
    Mr. Blaker: In view of the dangerous behaviour of the Soviet Union and Cuba in the Horn of Africa. following similarly dangerous behaviour in Angola not long ago, what consultations has the right hon. Gentleman had recently with other friendly Governments about the possible use of the political and economic levers that we possess to discourage further dangerous behaviour of that kind in future?
    Dr. Owen: I am against the use of foreign troops in Africa, as I would be against their use in any continent unless it were shown that they were genuinely helping a sovereign State out of temporary difficulties, were not there to alter the balance of power, and were not there on the path of adventurism. We have made it perfectly clear that we do not think that the use by the Soviet Union of surrogate troops, in a way which would change the balance of power and strengthen its influence in the area, is legitimate. But we must face the fact that it is legitimate for the Soviet Union to be involved with African States and to supply arms, and it is possible for any African State to ask for outside help if its territory is attacked. We must achieve a balance in these matters.

    NATO (Foreign Ministers)
    Mr. Ron Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next intends to meet the Foreign Ministers of the other NATO member countries.
    The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Frank Judd): My right hon. Friend expects to meet his NATO colleagues collectively at the NATO ministerial meetings in Washington on 30th and 31st May. He may also meet some of them individually on other occasions before that.
    Mr. Thomas: When my right hon. Friend meets the Foreign Ministers of the other NATO countries, will he make it clear to them that Labour Party policy, which is supported by many Labour Members, is to reduce our defence

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    expenditure in line with the average commitment of the other NATO countries, in proportion to our gross domestic product? Will he also bring to their attention the considerable balance of payments burden that this country now carries, due to overseas military commitments, especially in West Germany?
    Mr. Judd: We have not lost sight of the commitment, in our election manifesto, to bring our defence burden closely into line with that of our main European allies. The defence budget for 1978–79, as announced in the Statement on the Defence Estimates, recently published, will be about 4¾ per cent. of our estimated gross domestic product compared with 5 per cent. for the current year, foreseen in last year's Statement. In the five years following 1972–73, defence spending fell in real terms by 4 per cent. while civil programmes increased by 6½ per cent.
    Mr. Dykes: Does the hon. Gentleman hope for or expect a different attitude by the French towards NATO membership after the French General Election?
    Mr. Judd: That is a matter for the French, but in terms of practical cooperation we always look to the most effective liaison with French forces that we can achieve.
    Mr. James Lamond: Has my hon. Friend noticed from the figures in the defence White Paper that if our percentage of GNP spent on arms were reduced to the same average level as that of our allies, excluding the United States, we would be saving nearly £2,000 million a year which we are unnecessarily spending on defence now?
    Mr. Judd: I repeat that our policy objective is to achieve a fairer distribution of the cost burden of the NATO Alliance as a whole between all members. That is a point that we frequently make to our colleagues within it.

    Israeli Settlements
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary of Israel about Israeli settlements in occupied Arab territory in the context of a Middle East settlement; and if he will make a statement.
    Dr. Owen: The Government have been in constant touch with all the parties. I made our views on Israeli settlements in the occupied territories clear when in Israel.
    Recent events have shown the vicious spiral of events which can easily lead to a major conflict.
    The Security Council, with our full support, has established a United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon. We informed the Secretary-General yesterday, in keeping with our commitment to the United Nations and in particular its peacekeeping activity, that we are ready to provide logistic support from the sovereign base areas in Cyprus for this force. The essential step now is for the United Nations force to be introduced as soon as possible.
    The plight of the refugees from the fighting is of great concern to the Government, and we have already taken steps to provide emergency relief.
    The task now must be to focus attention once more on comprehensive peace negotiations.
    Mr. Hooley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the merciless slaughter of civilians in South Lebanon by the regular armed forces of Israel and the creation of another 100,000 Arab refugees does not seem to indicate that the present Israeli Government are much interested in permanent peace? Does he also agree that the one gesture that that Government could make to prove good faith would be a firm declaration that the settlements will be removed in the context of a final settlement?
    Dr. Owen: I think that the most urgent matter in the conversations taking place between Prime Minister Begin and President Carter is a clarification of what the Israeli Government really understand by Resolution 242 and a reaffirmation that it means withdrawal on all three fronts.
    Mr. Walters: Bearing in mind the part that this country played in the formulation of Resolution 242, may I take it from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that he is repudiating Mr. Begin's new and rather extraordinary interpretation, and that withdrawal from the West Bank is part of the withdrawal from all Arab territories?
    Dr. Owen: It is the Government's view, as it has been of successive British Governments, that withdrawal from all three areas—Golan, the West Bank and Sinai—is part of the interpretation of Resolution 242. We have also constantly reiterated our determination that Israel should have secure boundaries. If there are security needs, they should be examined.
    Mr. Faulds: What hope does my right hon. Friend really have that the Israeli forces will withdraw from Southern Lebanon, as it has long been a policy of Israel to occupy the territory up to the Litani river?
    Dr. Owen: I do not believe that the Israeli Government wish to occupy the territory up to the Litani. I think that the speed of the withdrawal will be greatly influenced by the effectiveness and strength of the United Nations force to be introduced into Southern Lebanon. That is why I thought it very important that Her Majesty's Government should make a contribution to that force.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: In view of the contribution to be made towards restoration of proper Lebanese control of their own area, surely the Government can go a hit further than they have. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the French have offered a parachute battalion to the international force? Surely we can go much further than simply offering support facilities from Cyprus.
    Dr. Owen: We were asked to provide logistic support and we have made available what we think can be made available. The advantage of what we have in Cyprus is that we are already providing logistic support for the United Nations force in Cyprus. It is very convenient, in terms of airfields and ports, for Southern Lebanon, and I think it will provide a safe and secure support base which will make a very important contribution over the next few weeks to the stability of the United Nations force.
    Mr. Grocott: Will my right hon. Friend make it abundantly clear to the Israeli Government that it is neither a very moral policy nor, indeed, a very prudent one for Israel or any other country to deal with the problem of terrorist attacks by means of all-out war against a neighbouring State?
    Dr. Owen: I have never believed in the doctrine of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and I do not believe that international peace is helped by retaliatory action. But it would be idle to pretend that the Israeli Government and people were not very cruelly provoked.
    Sir John Rodgers: With regard to United Nations Resolution 242, surely it was a previous British Government who took out the word "all" in "all territories". The removal of the word "all" was a British initiative. Withdrawal from the territories, yes—but not all of the territories, necessarily. Is the Foreign Secretary repudiating that commitment by Her Majesty's Government of a previous day, before he was made Foreign Secretary?
    Dr. Owen: I would not dream of repudiating it. It has been supported by successive Governments. "The" referred to "the territories". "All" would mean, in the interpretation, in the wording that was then being discussed, withdrawing to exactly the 1967 boundaries. The removal of the word "all" allowed for marginal adjustments, which I think was the phrase used by Sir Alec Douglas-Home—as he then was—in his speech at Harrogate. Therefore, successive British Governments have accepted that some arguments may take place about security needs in relationship to territory, but not on the issue of withdrawal from all three fronts.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. On this Question, I shall call one more hon. Member from each side of the House.
    Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on the Labour Benches who have been staunch supporters of Israel and who continue to be staunch supporters of Israel are, nevertheless, very concerned that the response to the dastardly terrorist attack should have been made in the manner in which it was, that we are not in favour of the invasion of someone else's territory, and that we congratulate my right hon. Friend on the stand that the Government have taken on this issue and trust that the efforts being made by the Government will help to bring about peace in the Middle East?
    Dr. Owen: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I know his long-standing concern for Israel and its territorial integrity and strength. I hope that his words will be read and listened to with attention, because I think that they reflect the anxieties of many people at present.
    Mr. Mayhew: Do not these events provide yet another illustration of the value to this country of maintaining sovereign bases in Cyprus? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he has neither proposals nor a desire to withdraw from those bases?
    Dr. Owen: I believe that there are benefits to this country in the sovereign base areas. The question must be considered in terms of the cost and the various ways in which the sovereign base areas can be used. But this is a concrete example of their effectiveness, as indeed has been the British support for the United Nations peace keeping force inside Cyprus. However, one has to take account of the very heavy financial cost that we bear by our military presence in Cyprus.

    Rhodesia
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on further measures he intends to take towards achieving a peaceful settlement in Rhodesia.
    Mr. Tim Rentonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a further statement on the Rhodesian settlement.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on Rhodesia.
    Mr. Brothertonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about Rhodesia.
    Dr. Owen: I made the Government's view clear in the debate on Monday.
    Mr. Rifkind: Will the Foreign Secretary confirm today's newspaper reports that the Government accept the new multiracial Executive Council for Rhodesia as
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    the de facto Administration of the territory?
    Dr. Owen: The Government consider this new Executive Council to be illegal, as was the previous regime, but we have to take account of the fact that it exists, as, indeed, we have done with Mr. Smith's regime. When it is appropriate, either officials from my Department or myself will be prepared to discuss matters with the illegal regime.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: In the light of the establishment of an interim Government, will the Secretary of State now reconsider the appointment of a permanent mission to Rhodesia, if only to ascertain the views of the Rhodesian people on an internal settlement, in order that the Government's policy may in fact take account of the views inside Rhodesia at least as much as it appears to take account of the views of the Patriotic Front and those outside Rhodesia?
    Dr. Owen: This is an issue to which the Opposition always come back. They must recognise, however, that when dealing with an illegal regime I am not a completely free agent in these matters. There were two officials involved in Salisbury, and it was not my doing that the senior one was removed.
    Mr. Brotherton: Will the right hon. Gentleman contact his friend, Mr. Andrew Young, and tell him that Her Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that their policy on Rhodesia has failed, that they are now repenting, and that Her Majesty's Government will now support the forces of moderation and will cease giving encouragement to murderers?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: While seeking a settlement in Rhodesia, will my right hon. Friend ensure that it is as peaceful a settlement as possible? In order to do that, there will be a need to contact the nationalist forces outside the country as well as those inside Rhodesia. Until we can get a copper-bottomed guaranteed settlement that will meet the Six Principles, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that we shall not end economic sanctions?
    Dr. Owen: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. We shall judge the outcome against the Six Principles and, in

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    particular, draw attention to the Fifth Principle and the Sixth Principle, which are the ones that are highly relevant to any test of opinion. In the meantime, we shall work as hard as we can to involve all the nationalist leaders, both inside and outside the country, and to try to achieve a ceasefire.
    Mr. Thorpe: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the acid test of whether the internal settlement is genuinely intended to transfer power to the African majority is whether security matters will now become the responsibility of the Executive Council and no longer of Mr. Smith exclusively? Does he agree that unless decisions such as the pre-emptive strike against Zambia, which was a politically disastrous move, are matters on which there is some discussion and possibly a power of veto by the three Africans who are members of the four-man Executive Council, there will be no hope of bringing about integration between the freedom fighters and the regular forces of Rhodesia, and no hope of getting the Patriotic Front involved in talks? Unless we can achieve those two things, civil war will be inevitable.
    Dr. Owen: As I understand it, responsibility for the armed forces will be held by the Executive Council. If that is so, it is certainly an improvement from the present situation. But it must be carried much further than that. I think that it will have to be shown in the Executive Council's actions, as the right hon. Gentleman implies, and in the way in which it deals with the whole question of the integration of the liberation fighters.
    Mr. Grocott: Has not the predictable and entirely understandable response of the rest of the world to the so-called settlement in Salisbury completely vindicated the Government's position of refusing to welcome this settlement? Will my right hon. Friend make it plain that there can be no reasonable possibility of any settlement in Rhodesia so long as Smith remains a part of any interim Government?
    Dr. Owen: My hon. Friend is quite right that international opinion is a major factor that must be considered. Indeed, it is in the interests of Zimbabwe that it should be considered, because, unless we are able to find a situation in
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    which a settlement is freely and fairly negotiated, there is little doubt that the international community will neither recognise it nor lift sanctions, and that will damage Zimbabwe's future. My hon. Friend is perfectly correct that we should do all that we can to ensure that a settlement is achieved that will be acceptable to the international community, and that is what I am trying to do.
    Mr. John Davies: May I return to the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler)? Does the Foreign Secretary accept that a major step was taken only yesterday by the setting up of the Executive Council? Does he not now agree that in order to keep properly informed of the developments of the work within Rhodesia and of the activities of the Executive Council, and in order properly to guide the actions of Her Majesty's Government, the need to set up a mission becomes absolutely paramount?
    Dr. Owen: As I have indicated to the right hon. Gentleman, the setting up of a mission is not a decision to be taken by the British Government alone. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] The question is whether it is acceptable to the illegal regime. They happen to be able to control whether people stay in the country. That is a fact that has to be taken into account. There are conditions that they might wish to apply but which I would not be prepared to accept.

    United States (Secretary of State)
    Mr. Flanneryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has any plans to meet the United States Secretary of State.
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend expects to meet Mr. Vance next at the CENTO ministerial meeting in Washington on 19th and 20th April.
    Mr. Flannery: Knowing that my right hon. Friend has constant contact with the United States Secretary of State, may I ask whether he will forgive me for once again raising the question of peace in the Middle East? Will he exert what democratic pressures he can on the American Secretary of State to join with him in telling the Israelis that many of their friends throughout the world are

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    steadily being alienated by their stand and that we feel that they must come to an accommodation with the Arab States in the interests of peace in the Middle East? Will he convey to the Israeli Government the view that the utterly disproportionate attack on Southern Lebanon is not a correct form of retaliation, no matter what raid had taken place previously, and that they must disgorge the occupied territories and rediscuss the whole question of the Left Bank?
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend has already dealt very fully with those aspects of the matter in his replies to Questions this afternoon.
    Mr. Michael Stewart: Has my hon. Friend noticed that in the course of the last half hour the Foreign Secretary has been asked to engage in critical and possibly hostile dialogue with Singapore, the Soviet Union, Uganda, Ethiopia, Israel. Mr. Andrew Young and some of our allies in NATO, including the United States? Perhaps my right hon. Friend would like to know that some of us have confidence that he will exercise reasonable discrimination.
    Mr. Judd: I think that my right hon. Friend's discrimination is well known. I can also say that his energy is unequalled.

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY

    Council of Ministers
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next expects to meet European Economic Community leaders; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. George Gardinerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next plans to attend a full meeting of the Council of Ministers.
    Mr. Hoyleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next plans to meet the other European Economic Community Foreign Ministers.
    Dr. Owen: I am due to meet Community Foreign Miinsters at the meeting of the Council of Ministers to be held in Luxembourg on 4th April.
    Mr. Skinner: Have my right hon. Friend and his friends in Europe ever discussed the question of coloured people with citizenship rights in the Common Market, which could loosely be called the European sub-continent? Will he confirm that there are several million coloured people in that area, and tell the House that, irrespective of the report of any Select Committee—or anyone else—on these matters, the Treaty of Rome lays down that any of these people can come to this country if they so desire?
    Dr. Owen: There are informal discussions, particularly between Ministers who hold the equivalent of the Home Secretarys position. Several of cur Common Market partners have experience of immigration and multi-racial societies. They have tackled the issue in many ways and with commendable skill. They have had problems, just as we have had, but I think there is much that we can learn from our Community partners about immigration policy and a non-racial society, as, indeed, there is much to learn in many other ways.
    Mr. Gardiner: In view of the important political aspects on the question of economic and monetary union, are there any proposals for the Council of Ministers to discuss this subject when the right hon. Gentleman is present, as well as the Economic Ministers?
    Dr. Owen: This is being discussed in the Foreign Council as part of the discussion in preparation for the European Council, because the matter tends to be on the agenda of European Council meetings. It has been discussed by Foreign Ministers and will no doubt be discussed in the future.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that if, at the meeting to which he has referred, an agreed date is made for direct elections, the British Government will give an unconditional commitment to go along with it?
    Dr. Owen: Before we can give an absolute commitment we have to be assured that we will have Royal Assent to the Bill.
    Mr. Hamilton: I will give my right hon. Friend that.
    Dr. Owen: My hon. Friend has assumed this new role, for which he has been striving for some years. I assure him that we shall not be laggards with regard to a firm date, and we are confident that we shall be able to fulfil that date.
    Sir A. Meyer: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity to explain to his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), and other hon. Members below the Gangway on the Government side, that the economic future of this country is indissolubly bound up with our membership of the Common Market, just as our security is bound up with our membership of NATO?
    Dr. Owen: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that membership of the Community is about all aspects of policy. It is a partnership of nine member States that goes over a whole range of issues—not just foreign policy but domestic issues. By combining together we can add to our strength.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Does my right hon. Friend agree that whatever prohibitions we may make with regard to Indians, Pakistanis or people from Bangladesh, the one thing that is perfectly clear is that any member of the EEC who is brown or dark-skinned cannot be prevented from coming to this country if he so desires?
    Miss Joan Lestor: And bringing his children, up to the age of 21.
    Dr. Owen: Yes, there are times when we must look to the legislation and commitments that we have as members of the Common Market. In this matter I am only too glad to look at the practice of other European countries from which we have something to learn. But that is not exclusive, because I believe they have something to learn from us. The Government are quite convinced that we must stand by the commitments that have been made by successive Governments, particularly the commitments entered into by the Heath Government in 1971 and 1972.
    Mr. Hurd: I should like to return to the point made by the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton). On Monday the Minister of State told the House that the Government would be taking proposals about the date on which direct
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    elections should be held to the forthcoming EEC Summit, but he did not tell us what those proposals would be. Will the Secretary of State please lift the veil? Is not the House of Commons entitled to know when the Government think the first round of these elections should be held?
    Dr. Owen: I believe that there is a specific Question on the Order Paper about this matter, which I do not wish to anticipate. In any case, these will only be discussions. The decision will be taken—at least, it is hoped it will be taken—by the European Council.

    Political Co-operation
    Mr. Peter Millsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new issues in the field of political co-operation he intends to put on the agenda of the new meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers.
    Mr. Rhodes Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what new initiatives in developing political co-operation he is planning for the next meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers.
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend has no plans to raise new issues in political co-operation or initiatives to develop it at present. It is proceeding satisfactorily over a wide field. Political co-operation issues are not normally raised at meetings of the Council, but a Council meeting can be transformed briefly into a meeting in political co-operation, as happened on 7th March, when there was a short discussion on Africa.
    Mr. Mills: Surely the Minister agrees that Europe should seize the opportunity of speaking with one voice with regard to many of the world problems that exist at present. Does he agree that very good subjects would be the Middle East and the Horn of Africa? Will he start the initiative, so that something can be thrashed out and something positive done? Some of us are waiting to hear.
    Mr. Judd: I assure the hon. Gentleman that these are precisely the sort of issues that are constantly kept under review, not only in the formal meetings of the Nine with regard to political cooperation but in regular meetings

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    between officials that take place between those formal meetings. These discussions take place partly in specialised working groups, which deal with crises in specific areas of the world. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no reason to believe that major issues of this sort will not receive priority.
    Mr. Rhodes James: Will the Minister and the Secretary of State consider the possibility, together with the other EEC Foreign Ministers, of making friendly representations to the Government of Pakistan concerning the death sentence passed upon former Prime Minister Bhutto? Does the Minister realise that, while in no way wishing to intervene in the internal affairs of Pakistan or in the judicial process, there is deep concern in this country and elsewhere about the implications of that sentence?
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend discussed this matter with the President's foreign affairs adviser earlier this week.
    Mr. Faulds: With regard to political co-operation, and since we are still responsible for the affairs of Southern Rhodesia, when my right hon. Friend meets his Foreign Minister colleagues will he try to get them to make collective representations to the new puppet regime in Salisbury that political hangings should cease forthwith?
    Mr. Judd: I am sure that my hon. Friend, who follows these matters with great attention, will have noticed that other members of the Community have been highly critical of developments within Rhodesia in recent weeks and months.
    Mr. John Davies: I should like to return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rhodes James). May I ask the Foreign Secretary to make clear how deeply this country would feel—and what deep effects it might have—if the death sentence were carried out on Mr. Bhutto?
    Mr. Judd: I am sure that my right hon. Friend has taken note of what the right hon. Gentleman said.

    Helsinki Final Act (Belgrade Review Meeting)
    Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
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    Affairs what recent consultations he has had with other European Economic Community Foreign Ministers about the latest developments at the Belgrade review conference.
    Dr. Owen: I most recently discussed the situation at Belgrade with other EEC Foreign Ministers at our political co-operation meeting held in Copenhagen on 14th February.
    Mr. Blaker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of people in the Soviet Union have been held in prison for many months on trumped-up charges when in reality they have been imprisoned simply because they have attempted to monitor the performance of their own Government with regard to international agreements freely entered into? Will the EEC countries make it clear to the Soviet Union that if, after the end of the Belgrade conference, these people were to be put on a show trial, that would be a flagrant breach of the Soviet Union's international obligations?
    Dr. Owen: The Soviet Government—both at the conference and by their knowledge of the positions taken by European countries—are under no illusion that, following the Belgrade conference, any action on their part which appears to run totally counter to the provisions of the Final Act will have a damaging effect on the whole of the CSCE process and the run-up to the planned conference in Madrid. There is no room at all for doubt in the Soviet Union.

    Enlargement
    Mr. Arnoldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he remains satisfied with the progress being made towards the enlargement of the Community.
    Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress is being made in the Council of Ministers on the Community's enlargement for the addition of the existing three applicant countries.
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend has made clear in the Council of Ministers the Government's view that, as well as maintaining the momentum in the accession negotiations with Greece, more rapid

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    progress should be made in the Community's preparations for negotiations with Portugal and Spain.
    Mr. Arnold: Will the Minister tell us whether the Commission still hopes to complete the substantial part of the Greek negotiations between now and the beginning of 1979? Is this a realistic target? Will he reconfirm that there will be no attempt to link the Greek negotiations with those for Spain and Portugal?
    Mr. Judd: I assure the hon. Member that we are looking at each application on its merits. There are interrelating points between the applications. We hope to arrive at the final stages of the Greek negotiations by the end of this year.
    Mr. Dykes: Since the negotiations inevitably are proving more complicated than was previously expected, for all three countries, and although we all wish to achieve enlargement of the EEC, does the Minister agree that it will be a great pity if significant internal developments in the Community are delayed? Undoubtedly the three acceding countries will be welcome, but the Community must look to its own internal developments even while the neogtiations are continuing with the three applicants.
    Mr. Judd: The hon. Member has touched on an important point. The reorganisation of the common agricultural policy and of Mediterranean agriculture are issues that affect the present Community and should not be linked to the problems of the acceding members.
    Mr. Heffer: Does the Minister agree that if these three countries are to come into the Community—and I am not opposed to their joining—we should make it absolutely clear that we will not pay, through the CAP, for structural changes in agriculture that are necessary in those countries? Does he agree that we pay far too much already for the CAP? All this must be clearly understood by the applicant Governments; indeed, this must be a condition of their joining.
    Mr. Judd: As the Minister of Agriculture made very clear earlier this week, we are paying a disproportionate amount of the cost of the CAP and we are determined that it shall be revised. The accession of new members will be seen in the
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    context of a much-improved agricultural policy.
    Mrs. Winifred Ewing: Will the Minister undertake that enlargement of the EEC will not result in further encroachments into our overstretched fishing grounds?
    Mr. Judd: We are determined to stand firm on issues of crucial importance to our fishing industry in our approach to the common fisheries policy. After such a policy is agreed, and by the time new members have acceded, we hope that the Community will have faced the British fishing problems and the fact that we are determined that the British fishing industry will not carry any heavier burdens.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will the Minister assure us that negotiations for the entry of Portugal will not be entangled with those of Spain, as the Spanish application has not yet arrived on the table? Can he give us an approximate date when the negotiations will begin and when the Commission will submit a document? Will it be before the Summer Recess?
    Mr. Judd: As I said earlier, we are looking at each application on its merits. On Portugal, the opinion published by the Commission is expected in the spring, and the opinion on Spain is not expected until the end of this year or early next year.

    President of the Commission
    Mr. Crawfordasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next intends to meet the President of the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Spearingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next expects to meet the President of the European Economic Community Commission.
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend is due to meet the President of the EEC Commission at the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council on 4th April.
    Mr. Crawford: Will the Minister remind the President of the EEC that Shetland voted against remaining in the Community? As this House seems to give priority to the rights of Shetland, when does he intend to table a Bill to

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    enable Shetland to come out of the Common Market?
    Mr. Judd: That is not primarily for the Foreign Office.
    Mr. Spearing: When he meets the President, will my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary point out that there have been a number of occasions on which hon. Members in this House have objected strongly to senseless measures of harmonisation proposed by the Commission? May I point out to him that many of the much larger measures of harmonisation are against the Government's views about the powers of national Governments and of this House? Does he agree that measures of this kind are a waste of time and that the Commission would be better employed on more constructive proposals?
    Mr. Judd: We are against the concept of harmonisation for harmonisation's sake, because that can develop into a bureaucrats' picnic. The governing criterion on harmonisation is whether it results in policies that are more in the interests of the British people and those of other member States.
    Mr. Ian Lloyd: When the Minister next meets the President, will he draw his attention to an article in today's edition of The Times about the state of affairs in Addis Abbaba, and suggest to him that the most destabilising effects there are a combination of Kalashnikovs, Karl Marx and barbarism? Will he impress upon the President that this should be taken into account by the Community when formulating its policy on Africa?
    Mr. Judd: The President reads The Times regularly. I am sure that he will come to his own conclusions.

    European Parliament (Location)
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his counterparts in the European Economic Community on the future location of the European Parliament.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. John Tomlinson): The question was raised at the Foreign Affairs Council in January. There was agreement that under Article 216 of the Treaty of Rome the
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    permanent site of the Assembly is a matter for decision
    "by common accord of the Governments of the Member States".
    Mr. Goodhart: If the European parliamentarians themselves decide to settle on Brussels and abandon the exhausting tours to Strasbourg and Luxembourg will the British Government support them?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The President of the Assembly made it clear in correspondence that the Assembly's only concern with accommodation in Brussels was to secure adequate working conditions. This in no way prejudices the site of the future Parliament. The location of the Parliament is a matter for common accord of the Governments of member States.
    Sir John Rodgers: Would it not be a good idea for the offices to remain in Brussels but the Assembly to be in some other place—preferably Strasbourg? Should we not drop Luxembourg?
    Mr. Tomlinson: All kinds of people have all kinds of ideas about what is a good idea and what is not. The decision must be made by the member States.
    Mr. Dykes: Will the British Government take the opportunity to discuss the location of other European institutions? When the European Export Bank is formed in due course, would it not be a good idea for it to be located in London?
    Mr. Tomlinson: That is a very valuable point. The hon. Member will know from his own experience in the European Assembly how seriously we take the question of the location of certain European institutions.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will the Minister confirm that the Council of Ministers can take no decision or initiative on its own and that the initial proposal will have to come from the newly-elected Parliament in due course?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The Assembly can make any proposal that it wants. A decision will be made by common accord of the Council of Ministers, which has the power to do so under Article 216.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Since France has maintained that it will veto any decision that is not in line with its wishes, and since Brussels is likely to do the same and Luxembourg feels equally

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    deeply about this issue, will the Minister suggest that it would be a very good idea to transfer the European Parliament to the constituency of Jarrow?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I readily recognise my right hon. Friend's interest. I was rather thinking of the National Exhibition Centre, in my constituency. That might have some use in this respect. I know that there have been reports in the Press, but I must point out that neither France nor Luxembourg has given any formal indications about the European Parliament. The site of the Assembly concerns both France and Luxembourg, of course, and their views will be taken into account along with those of other member States.

BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Varley—statement.
Mr. Michael Marshall: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to draw attention to the fact that the Secretary of State for Industry is about to make a statement based on the White Paper "British Steel Corporation: the Road to Viability" which was made available in the Vote Office only at 3 p.m. In view of the importance of the statement and the White Paper, I ask your help to see what can be done to improve these arrangements.
Mr. Speaker: I have to reply off the cuff, but I believe that it is common practice for a statement to be made when a White Paper is issued. I am not sure, but I believe that it has been done recently.
The Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. Eric G. Varley): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the British Steel Corporation.
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 28th February, the Government have been conducting a study in depth of the medium and longer-term position of the British Steel Corporation. There has recently been much public concentration on the Corporation's likely losses in 1977–78. As I have told the House, these losses result from the worst crisis in the world steel industry for more than 40 years and one
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in which the BSC's overseas competitors are suffering in common with the Corporation.
Our review has now been completed. Close consultations have taken place with the Corporation and the TUC steel committee. We have also taken account of the reports of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. The Government's conclusions are set out in a White Paper which is being published today. A separate White Paper will be published soon giving the Government's response to the Select Committee's recommendations.
A modern steel industry is vital to an industrial nation. The Government will therefore ensure that a substantial bulk steel-making capacity is available in this country. The BSC plays a key role in supplying our manufacturing industries with the major part of their steel requirements. That must continue.
Our examination has shown that the present world surplus of steel will last for many years and that the sales opportunities for BSC, both at home and overseas, on which the ten-year development strategy of February 1973 was based, are no longer realistic even on the most optimistic assumptions. In present market conditions, the Corporation has substantial over-capacity. In the next few years, considerable additional capacity will become available from large modernisation and expansion schemes already close to completion. A sufficient margin is essential to supply home and export needs when the world economy moves out of recession, and to provide for the unforeseen eventualities which have persistently invalidated previous forecasts. But neither the Corporation nor the country can afford the cost of the mounting overcapacity that would result from unchanged policies.
Accordingly, the BSC has proposed, and the Government have agreed, the following policies. First, modernisation and expansion projects already approaching completion must be finished—for example, Redcar II B and Ravenscraig III. Secondly, substantial investment to improve product quality and so ensure competitiveness in the 1980s must continue. Subject to the conditions in the White Paper, the Corporation hopes to make a start on the installation of continuous casting facilities at Port Talbot in 1978–79.

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Very substantial improvements in productivity are also needed if the Corporation is to become viable. The trade unions and local workers' representatives have a major role to play in this. The TUC steel committee has made clear its commitment to achieving this improvement. For their part, the Government are determined to give full, sustained and public support to steps to achieve improved productivity in BSC and will continue to promote this with both the BSC management and the TUC steel committee.
Only by a common effort can we attain an internationally competitive British Steel Corporation that supplies the steel our manufacturing industries need, a Corporation that provides a secure livelihood for those employed in it while making a proper return on the resources invested by the taxpayer—the efficient, competitive and profitable British steeel industry that we need and are determined to achieve.
Sir K. Joseph: The Secretary of State has made a statement marked by a great deal of obscurity. I have six questions to ask him.
First, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the ten-year development strategy has now been firmly abandoned by the Government? Secondly, does he accept that the losses imposed on the industry by the Beswick plan and by overmanning have drained much of the funds that could have gone to some of the sensible modernisation schemes that are now being dropped?
Thirdly, will he say whether the cash limits proposed are, as the Select Committee recommended, to be split between capital and revenue? Fourthly, is he aware that the Select Committee recommended an agreed and specified programme of demanning? What demanning is proposed?
Fifthly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in our view, the Government are perhaps beginning to grapple—we cannot tell how seriously from the statement—with only half of the steel part of our economic problems—namely, overmanning and the search for competitiveness? Is he also aware that the Opposition want to see an internationally competitive industry and every sensible step taken to stimulate the growth of new
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jobs to reduce unemployment repercussions? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Labour Members have not yet grasped that there has to be positive encouragement of job creation to accompany demanning.
My last question to the Government is, when will the Government begin to tackle the other half of the economic problem—namely, the need to encourage growth of new jobs in new firms and expanded existing firms by tax cuts and less hostility by Government and trade unions to industry?
Mr. Varley: I shall try to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's points one by one. There is no doubt that the ten-year development strategy targets announced by the Conservative Government in 1973 have, in my judgment, no hope of ever being attained. I must say to the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), because I had some things to say to him in that period, that he was wrong and I was wrong on the basis of consideration. He was wrong, as were the Conservatives in general, about the level of demand at that time.
On the right hon. Gentleman's second supplementary question relating to the Beswick plan and what he described as overmanning, I can tell him that even on the basis of the 1973 development strategy some of the Beswick plans, as they have come to be known, would still be in operation if the Conservative Government had stayed in office. The Conservatives would still have had to deal with the situation on the basis on which we are now dealing with it.
As for capital cash limits, I have already made the situation clear to the House. The investment programme is included in those cash limits and is a figure of £500 million at outturn prices for next year.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries and its specified targets in the reduction of manpower. The Government have rejected that approach, and I want to make that plain. We want to proceed on a stage-by-stage basis. We want the TUC steel committee, in negotiation with the Corporation, to decide on capacity. I say that flatly to the House. There will be a White Paper in due course in response to the Select Committee, but we believe that its way was not the right way to go about the matter.

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Thirdly the Government have approved a proposed capital investment programme for BSC for the year 1978–79 at outturn prices of £500 million. For the year 1979–80, subject to the normal annual review, there will be, again at outturn prices, a further £500 million. Fourthly, there is no case, at present, for new starts on increased steel-making capacity, so the proposed expansion in capacity at Port Talbot and the construction of electric are plants at Shelton, Hunterston and Ravenscraig must be deferred until demand forecasts improve sufficiently to justify their construction. Fifthly, the major and costly new mill projects for hot rolled coil at Port Talbot, plate at Teesside and tinplate in South Wales must similarly be deferred.
For the BSC to achieve financial viability, it is necessary for capacity to move more into line with demand. The Government have therefore accepted that BSC should seek to negotiate the closures in 1978–79 of high cost plants, in particular the Beswick review plants, in close consultation with the TUC steel committee and the local work forces. As the House knows, terms have already been agreed for the closure of the Clyde iron works, the Hartlepool steel works and the East Moors steel works.
The Government will seek to ensure that everything practical is done to provide alternative employment in the areas affected by steel-making closures. For its part, the Corporation will intensify its efforts in this direction, through its subsidiary BSC (Industry).
The White Paper gives details of the special measures we propose at Hartlepool and East Moors. The Scottish Development Agency is already taking all practical measures to assist employment in the area affected by the closure of the Clyde iron works. The Government will announce any necessary remedial measures at other plants when closure dates have been negotiated by the BSC.
The Government's present view is that further rationalisation will be necessary after 1978–79. However, both the Government and the BSC favour a step-by-step approach which will retain flexibility to adapt to developments in the market. Hasty and arbitrary decisions now will close the door to meeting future requirements.
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As the House knows, the BSC faces serious financial problems. In this, the Corporation is not alone amongst the world steel industries. The Corporation will need a substantial capital reconstruction at a reasonably early date. This will not, of course, affect its overseas loans, which will be serviced and repaid on the due dates. In the present uncertainty in the steel market, it is very difficult to determine the precise size and nature of the reconstruction needed to produce a viable long-term capital structure.
Pending that reconstruction, and in place of further advances from the National Loans Fund and of public dividend capital on the present criterion, the Government will meet BSC's financial requirements, other than short-term, by subscription of equity capital under Section 18(1) of the Iron and Steel Act 1975. These requirements include finance for capital investment, meeting obligations under NLF and other loans and covering the deficit expected to arise before reconstruction. BSC will continue to make short-term borowings under Section 16 of the Act within the ceiling determined by the Government.
Because of the immediate financial outlook, no dividend is expected on the new capital before the reconstruction, but I should make it clear that I shall require all new capital subscribed from 1st April to be properly remunerated by dividends after the reconstruction. It would be premature to fix a minimum dividend requirement at this stage. I shall shortly present to the House legislation to raise the borrowing limit for BSC. More detailed information will then be given. We shall continue to determine the Corporation's cash limit on a year-by-year basis and will take into account the Corporation's physical and financial progress. For 1978–79 the cash limit will be £875 million.
The funds required by BSC inevitably place a heavy burden on the public purse and divert resources from other desirable objectives. This can be justified only if both management and work force can show they are taking the steps necessary to achieve the lasting viability and international competitiveness, which are the Government's firm objective.

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I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that it is our aim to be internationally competitive and to do all we can to achieve an industry which reconciles what in the short term appear to be three irreconcilable objectives. I refer to our having a major steel industry which can move as quickly as possible into profitability and viability, supplying the needs of British industry, and dealing properly with the social consequences for those who are affected. So far, I think that we have tried to deal with the social consequences properly. We have not moved too arbitrarily or precipitately in our decisions to reduce manpower in the industry.
I was also asked about new jobs. I recall that in the last few months when I have appeared at the Dispatch Box to support measures for jobs, the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and his hon. Friends have voted against them. It did not matter whether those measures related to the shipbuilding industry or the temporary employment subsidy or anything of that kind, the Opposition were always in the "No" lobby.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to make a request to the House. I shall be under heavy pressure in the major debate that is to follow later in the day. I appreciate that we have heard a serious statement and that many hon. Members wish to raise constituency issues. Therefore, I should be most grateful if they will keep to the point so that I am able to call many more Members.
Mr. Hardy: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people who are concerned that Britain shall maintain a steel industry will regard his statement as realistic but not entirely unhopeful? Will he confirm that successful parts of the BSC, such as various units within and near my constituency, will be encouraged to maintain a commendable level of activity? Will he ensure that winners are backed?
Mr. Varley: What I have said about moving to viability and profitability applies to all divisions within BSC. I know that my hon. Friend is referring to the parts of the Sheffield division of the
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Corporation situated in Rotherham. I was in the area last Friday. I was encouraged by the fact that that concern had maintained its profitability against all adverse market factors and that it was realistic in wanting to ensure that it continues to make products of very high quality. I do not think anything I have said today affects the position in my hon. Friend's part of the country.
Mr. Richard Wainwright: Is the fight hon. Gentleman aware that the absence of any new plans for development strategy, although unavoidable, leaves large numbers of workers and local authorities in a state of uncertainty? To deal fairly and squarely with people and local authorities in about six of the areas which at one time were expecting an increase in steel-making capacity, will he confirm that the plans for increased capacity are not merely deferred but can be revived only if a quite spectacular and unexpected revival of demand for steel takes place?
Mr. Varley: That is one of the great uncertainties. I do not think that anyone in the House or country knows exactly how steel demand will move over the next few years. For example, at the moment the Japanese have 13 million tonnes of over-capacity, which is equal to the total exports of all other steel-producing countries. That is one measure of the overcapacity in the world. We are not quite sure how things will go. I have said that capital reconstruction is essential. We need to be able to make some assessment in the months ahead. The impact of this decision on local authorities is serious. The hon. Gentleman has probably not had the time to look at the White Paper. We make reference to the impact in paragraphs 16, 17 and 18. In due course detailed announcements will be made about the temporary loss of rate income. We shall be seeing whether the areas concerned can be properly compensated.
Mr. Ifor Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the changes in investment plans for Port Talbot will cause deep disappointment, not only among steel workers but throughout the industrial belt of West Glamorgan and West Wales, especially among the industrial and tinplate workers in my constituency? Does he realise that the tinplate industry is vitally concerned and integrated with

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Port Talbot? Is he further aware that there will be a warm welcome for what he has said about selective investment and his reference to the continuous casting facilities at Port Talbot, which has such an important bearing on the quality of tinplate? Can my right hon. Friend give us some idea of the timetable and the possible date when this investment will be begun?
Mr. Varley: I made a statement some time ago on the question of the tinplate industry at Ebbw Vale and I do not think that the position has changed. As soon as the market conditions are favourable, the second phase of that programme will go ahead, because tinplate is extremely important to South Wales. We want to do all that we can to help. It is necessary to bear in mind that there is already £100 million worth of investment taking place at Port Talbot. I know that it will come as a disappointment that some of the major investments cannot go ahead and increase capacity there. I have explained the difficulties about increasing capacity. I know that it is the Corporation's intention, after a full financial appraisal has been made, to ensure that the continuous casting project should go ahead to improve the quality of the product.
Mr. Crawford: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great and deep anger which will be felt by all sections of opinion in Scotland over the deferment of the electric are plant at Ravenscraig and the lack of any announcement concerning the starting date for an integrated steel works at Hunterston? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that the Labour Government are presiding over the destruction of the steel industry in Scotland and that the voters of Garscadden will have a chance to say what they think about this on 13th April, as will the voters of Central Ayr, Motherwell and Lanarkshire at the General Election?
Mr. Varley: The hon. Gentleman is greatly exaggerating. If he looks at the figures he will find that the British Steel Corporation's investment in Scotland has sustained the industry there. For example, in 1976–77, 21 per cent. of total British Steel Corporation investment was associated with Scotland, although Scotland has only just over 10 per cent. of the total
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steel-making capacity. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is reflecting the views of the steel workers and the trade unions in Scotland.
Dr. Bray: Contrary to what the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford) has said, is my right hon. Friend aware that the steel workers of Scotland will be glad to hear of the completion of existing projects, particularly the 3½ million tonnes of fully integrated modern capacity at Ravenscraig? Will he confirm that the cash limits will be operated in such a way as to permit commercially justifiable investment to enhance capacity and improve quality, such as the project for secondary steel-making at Ravenscraig, the forging machine needed to replace handmills at Craigneuk, the enhancement of electric are capacity at Hallside, de-bottlenecking at Gartcosh, the bloom re-heating furnace at Glengarnock and so on? Does he accept that it is a matter not of having increased capacity available but of having the capacity that is in demand in world markets? Is he aware that it is a matter of concern that, on the plans he has announced, BSC will not be able to supply the steel required for the North Sea gas gathering pipeline and similar projects?
Mr. Varley: One of the major factors guiding us throughout this review has been the fact that we have a substantial investment programme of £500 million for the British Steel Corporation next year. That is an investment programme comparable with that of many other publicly owned industries, for example, the coal-mining industry. Emphasis will have to be placed on the completion of contracts already under way. It would be crazy to stop those projects. Emphasis will also have to be placed on product quality and development.
Mr. D. E. Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that I am not exaggerating when I say that his statement, about Port Talbot in particular, will be seen as striking a severe blow at the steel workers and the local authorities in West Glamorgan? Does he accept that in not going ahead with their investment plans the British Steel Corporation and the Government are choosing not to go ahead at one of the most attractive major sites available for an expansion of steel-making in Western Europe, bearing in mind,

1521
the port and rail facilities and the availability of coking coal and skilled labour in the area? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that in not undertaking this investment the BSC and the Government are threatening the long-term future of 18,000 jobs in South Wales?
Mr. Valley: There is nothing in my statement which threatens Port Talbot or steel-making in Wales. We are determined, on the basis of the investment programme which I have emphasised already this afternoon, that the steel industry in Wales will be a substantial and major employer. There is already £100 million worth of investment taking place at Port Talbot on the coking coal facilities there. There is also the continuous casting development, with which I know BSC wants to go ahead. Within the stage-by-stage approach we are adopting we can move to new capacity, provided the market justifies it. No one can tell me exactly how the steel market will develop over the next 12 months or two years, not only in this country but world-wide.
Mr. Leadbitter: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that we in Hartlepool welcome his recognition of our special problems? Will he also bear in mind that we have 17 per cent. unemployment and that in recent weeks we have lost 1,500 jobs in steel-making? Is he aware that we are pleased that he has agreed to put the British Steel Corporation on a firm financial basis and has decided that capital projects now under way should be completed? Will he say whether the plate mill and the pipe mills in Hartlepool may now be considered, without prejudice to future policy, as having a permanent part to play in steel-making at Redcar?
Mr. Varley: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the formidable problems existing in Hartlepool as a result of the closure negotiated voluntarily between the TUC steel committee and the British Steel Corporation. I know that he will welcome some of the measures we are taking, outlined in the White Paper, to help the situation. Paragraph 17 of the White Paper in particular deals with alleviating measures. I understand that one of the benefits, if I can put it that way, of the situation is that if the Teesside new plate mill does not go
1522
ahead, the plate facilities already in Hartlepool will continue in operation.
Mr. Peter Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when I introduced my White Paper he proposed a motion in two parts? The first part said that the investment programme—which he has halved today—should have been doubled, while the second part said that no closure should be permitted until there was a guarantee of new jobs in the areas concerned. Will the right hon. Gentleman permit any closure before such a guarantee is given?
Mr. Varley: I shall not permit arbitrary and precipitate closures. The right hon. Gentleman voted for something like that about a couple of weeks ago. I suspect that at some stage articles will be written to the newspapers by some right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches who follow these matters to the effect that we should have done something more, that we should have taken a grip and taken action to reduce manpower even further. It is necessary to reduce capacity within the short term, but we are determined to ensure that it is done on the basis of negotiation. That is our policy, and we shall be guided by that approach.
Mr. Lambie: Is my right hon. Friend aware that today's statement will be met with bitterness and anger by the Labour movement and trade union movement in Scotland. as expressed at the Labour Party conference at Dunoon last weekend? How can my right hon. Friend justify stopping an investment of £40 million for an electric are furnace at Hunterston when the Corporation has already committed £150 million for a project that will be mothballed? Will he confirm that the £7 million investment for the reheating furnace at Glengarnock will go ahead? In Scotland we do not have 5,000 jobs coming in for the Ford factory. Unlike Cardiff, we do not have 1,000 jobs coming from Government offices. We have no M4. We do not even have an adequate sewerage system. However, we have an unemployment rate of 35 per cent. How can my right hon. Friend, a member of a Labour Government, justify that?
Mr. Varley: Nothing would have given me more satisfaction than to tell the

1523
House that the Corporation's prospective capacity will be higher than the capacity that we think likely. During the financial year the Corporation will sell about 17 million tonnes of liquid steel. There is a theoretical capacity of 25 million tonnes to 26 million tonnes. On that basis the Corporation is running at 66 per cent. capacity, with all the effects that that has. If I were to propose that we should add to capacity—I wish that I could say that—I am sure that the majority of the House of Commons, including some of my hon. Friends, would not think that to be in the best interests of the country. Every 1 million tonnes of unused steel capacity costs the British people about £60 million. We have to ensure that we can assess the situation. We have to ensure that the overall position of the Corporation is in a much more viable state in another year's time.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Some people may still believe that the Secretary of State's policy is wrong. In view of the crash in world demand for steel, surely the concentration should be on small, effective and competitive plants rather than on the production of unsaleable bulk steel? In that relationship will the right hon. Gentleman consider the proposed closure of the Shelton plant, which is making a profit and is an efficient steel plant? It would be a disaster, I believe, to close the plant. If we are to have anything like an efficient steel industry, the right hon. Gentleman should try to sell the Shelton plant to private enterprise, which would make a profit from the plant of about £3 million a year.
Mr. Varley: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. All steel-making countries with operations of a comparable size to that of the Corporation are in some sort of difficulty, and by no means is the Corporation in the worst position. It is necessary only to read the figures of steel industries throughout the world to realise that. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has that wholly in focus. As regards the Shelton plant, I know that the Corporation is discussing the matter with the TUC steel committee. It is up to the two bodies to decide exactly what takes place at Shelton.
Mr. John Mendelson: When my right hon. Friend considers the overall strategy of the Corporation, will he bear in mind
1524
that he has been maintained in his policy by those who work in the steel industry, and not by those, such as spokesmen for the Opposition, who put the emphasis on global figures, demanning, redundancies and unemployment? Will my right hon. Friend relate his strategy to two major subjects? Does his announcement mean that where comparatively limited sums have already been considered for investments to allow works to continue successfully on their way, there will be no interference of any sort in spite of the financial pressure? Secondly, will he recall that we are still importing millions of tonnes of steel? Is he prepared to take the financial risks, which will be underwritten by those who support him in his policy, if not by others, to ensure international competitiveness and standing, which means that we continue advancing money to the industry? If we do not, we shall have to import steel again in a few years' time.
Mr. Varley: I think that my hon. Friend's approach is right. We have to proceed on a step-by-step basis. I do not want to go into the sort of targetry that is urged by some—for example, the number of redundancies, whether we can impose them and the sort of investment that will exist. I am determined to maintain a large investment programme so that pro-jets already under way will be completed. That is an essential condition. If capacity is to be taken out, it will be done with agreement and proper consultation with the work force on the basis of Hartlepool and East Moors.
Some action has been taken about imports. It will not have escaped the attention of my hon. Friend that even with the present gloomy prospects for world steel the Corporation last year became a net exporter of steel. That is something on which we must build.
Mr. Cant: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will be greeted by my constituents and the Shelton steel workers as a betrayal of promises and commitments given over the past six and a half years? Is he aware that the decision has been made because of the implacable opposition of the BSC to Shelton? Under paragraph 23(4) dealing with cost reduction schemes, will he accept, when he meets Moss Evans with the Shelton action committee after Easter, a guarantee from the Shelton workers that

1525
if an electric are is installed they will repay the total capital cost within four years?
My right hon. Friend has made numerous statements about co-operation between the BSC and the unions in effecting closures. Despite the letter of 18th October from the Minister of State, and despite what appears in column 1696 of Hansard of 9th March, the BSC, without any consultation with the unions, has written to workers telling them that it is closing steel-making at Shelton, that it is sending in no more supplies and that it is to cut off orders. That is abominable. My right hon. Friend should assert his authority over Bob Scoley, who does not say many complimentary things about him. He should tell the chairman of the BSC that he must not starve these workers into submission.
Mr. Varley: I know that my hon. Friend is disappointed that the electric are furnace project is not going ahead. The matter will have to be reviewed in the future. It is the Government's firm policy that there should be proper negotiations and procedures before any closures take place of iron and steelmaking plants. That has been made plain on more than one occasion to the Corporation. I assure my hon. Friend that it will be made plain again if he feels that it is necessary.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a self-evidently powerful case for allocating some national resources to ensure that those sectors of the industry that can achieve international competitive levels should do so? As he knows, we are moving rapidly from the age of steel to the age of silicone. Does he think it appropriate that there should be an investment of about £870 million to support the steel industry and only £8 million to support the semi-conductor industry?
Mr. Varley: That is one of the conflicts. It is a conflict that is apparent not only among the Government Benches but among Opposition Members. When I referred to steel-making capacity I saw some right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench nodding and suggesting that we should have had an even higher investment programme com-
1526
mitted to even greater capacity. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), who speaks for Scotland on behalf of the Opposition, and the hon. Gentleman should get together and sort themselves out.
Mr. Stan Crowther: In the light of my right hon. Friend's comments about the Rotherham workers in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy)—incidentally, Rotherham is expected to make a profit of £4 million in the current year—is he in a position to indicate when a decision will be made on the introduction of continuous billet casting, thus ensuring for an efficient plant and a highly skilled and dedicated work force a long-term future based on security and general economic viability?
Mr. Varley: I do not know about the particular project mentioned by my hon. Friend. However, as I have said, it is the British Steel Corporation's intention that the investment programme for next year shall be very much directed to improving product quality. I confirm everything that he said about the Rotherham works. It is extremely profitable, even against all this background, it has an enthusiastic work force and it is anxious to expand its capacity, if possible.
Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: Will the Secretary of State indicate what his policy is towards the direct reduction of iron making? He has talked about steelmaking at Hunterston, but, as I understand it, neither the gas reforming catalyst nor the pellets have been ordered. Does that mean that the iron-making plant is to go into mothballs as well?
Mr. Varley: It does not form part of the statement that I have made to the House. I believe that the BSC is actively looking at that part of its operations. I speak from memory, but I think that reference was made to this aspect in the Select Committee's Second Report.
Mr. Robert Edwards: Is my right hon. Friend in a position to say whether the Bilston steelworks comes within the category that he described as a high-cost plant? If so, I suggest that that is very debateable because it has never made a loss since nationalisation. Is he aware that if the Bilston plant is closed that will

1527
double unemployment in my constituency and create serious problems for the whole of the metal industry in the West Midlands?
Mr. Varley: I have no precise financial figures for particular plants. One difficulty is that, given a demand for only 17 million tonnes of British Steel Corporation production this year against a theoretical capacity of 25 million to 26 million tonnes, loading the plants does not have a great effect. It means that some plants can be loaded to produce a profit, while others, which are generally described as low-cost plants, are loaded inefficiently. That is a difficult management problem for the Corporation.
Mr. Michael Marshall: Is not the right hon. Gentleman's statement today the result of four years of prevarication and delay? Does he agree that if the programme in the 1973 White Paper had gone ahead, new plant, including the mill and continuous casting at Port Talbot, would be coming on stream just about now? Will he confirm that this is now five years out and adds to uncertainty about the future? Finally, in which way does his proposal today differ from what Sir Monty Finneston said on demanning and for which he was sacked?
Mr. Varley: I need not refer to or comment on that last remark. It is utter and total rubbish. The hon. Gentleman, who pretends to be a serious Member of the House of Commons, would not expect me to comment on that.
In addition to all that, I shall not take lectures from Conservative Members of Parliament about delays in the steelmaking plans. The development plan that was first produced for the British Steel Corporation was not the development plan of the right hon. Member for Worcester. It was produced in 1969. At that time there was what we called the constitutional monstrosity—the joint steel steering group—where for two years the investment programme and that plan were held up. It was proceeded with only after the right hon. Gentleman was able to take Lord Melchett, Sir Monty Finniston and other such people into the Cabinet room to convince the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath).
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to call all hon. Members who have been rising throughout.
Mr. Kinnock: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the viability, profitability and improved sales that both he and the industry seek can be achieved only by improvements in costs, supply and quality? Does he further accept that these objectives can be achieved only by improvements in productivity, which cannot be secured solely by manpower reductions but need massive additional investment to ensure that we anticipate rises in demand and have the best possible means of manufacture available so that we may have a lead and an advantage over the rest of the world? In consequence, is not the decision on Port Talbot and other areas retrograde in this respect, because it offers the industry little more than the maintenance of what it already has, what is now irreversible, plus some manpower reductions? Is that not bound to make people very bitter without the offsetting effect of further investment in the industry?
Mr. Varley: My hon. Friend was one of those who said that we should go for specific reductions in manpower targets.
Mr. Kinnock: What is my right hon. Friend going to do?
Mr. Varley: My hon. Friend said that in his report. I am not here to cause trouble for anyone this afternoon, but I think that it is fair to point that out.
The investment programme is substantial in any terms. I suggest that an investment next year of £500 million so that expansion can take place is significant. We need to see how the market goes over the next 12 months and then to review the situation on what we call a stage-by-stage basis. It is premature to go in for targetry, as happened in 1973 and a few years before that.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: Is the Secretary of State aware that his statement confirms the gloomiest predictions that have been made in Scotland and that his package is more severe than it would have been had the Government taken the right decisions at the right time? What will be the effect of the planned closures in Scotland? What is the status of the electric are furnaces in Ravenscraig and

1529
Hunterston? Are they to be scrapped or postponed? What will be the effect on Scotland's share of steel-making capacity? Does he realise that his statement will make the people of Scotland a bit sick when they recall what the Labour Party and the right hon. Gentleman said about investment programmes when the Conservative Government announced them—plans which this Government are now scrapping?
Mr. Varley: The hon. Gentleman's comments are riddled with clichés. I do not know what he means by too little, too late. I suppose he is one of those who thought that I should have taken some arbitrary and precipitate decisions to reduce costs one month into the financial year. In effect, that is what he voted for only two weeks ago.
The electric are furnaces at Ravenscraig and Hunterston have been deferred. If the market improves significantly and demand justifies it, we shall want to consider whether they can be proceeded with.
Mr. Ashley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, by his failure to give an electric are furnace to Shelton immediately, he has gone back on a clear and specific promise that he made two years ago and that that is deplorable and indefensible? At this late hour, will he heed a plea to consult not only the TUC steel committee but the European Commission and the action committee at Shelton with a view to reprieving this viable steelworks?
Mr. Varley: I know of the disappointment at Shelton because of the postponement of the electric are furnace. In some respects I share that disappointment. I should have liked nothing better than to come to the House of Commons and to confirm that it should go ahead.
I shall be consulting the TUC steel committee further. I have been in close touch with it during the last three months.
Mr. Wrigglesworth: Bearing in mind that 10,000 jobs in the steel industry have been lost on Teesside since nationalisation in 1968 and the need for integrated, balanced plants with no bottlenecks, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is aware that people on Teesside are glad that the development of the
1530
Redcar site is to go ahead? Is he also aware that there will be disappointment south of the Tees that the new plate mill is not to be built there? I understand the position of people in Hartlepool and the circumstances in the market. However, will my right hon. Friend confirm that this decision has been deferred only for the present?
Mr. Varley: All the investments have been deferred because of market conditions. No one knows precisely how the market will go in the next 12 months. Even the right hon. Member for Worcester, who is very concerned about this matter and has a funny grimace on his face, does not know how the market will go. We need to make a close assessment of the situation over the next 12 months to see whether some of the postponed investments can be resumed.
Mr. Anderson: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the full investment in Port Talbot will ultimately be necessary if the plant is to remain viable and avoid increasing obsolescence? What assurances can he give on that matter?
Mr. Varley: It is not our intention that any of the steelworks should be allowed to wither in the way that my hon. Friend has described. We want an investment programme directed, above all, to the completion of the projects already under way and to the improvement of product quality. I think that my hon. Friend will see over the months that this is what the British Steel Corporation is aiming for. However, we shall keep the matter constantly under review. If the market justifies going further there will be no hesitation on our part to do so.
Mr. Skinner: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is just about the height of hypocrisy for members of the Select Committee dealing with the steel industry to come here with their synthetic indignation, having paved the way for some of these closures with their recent report?
How much will this exercise cost, bearing in mind the £4,000 mililon it is already costing to finance the pile of human misery known as the dole queue? How many men will be added to it? Can my right hon. Friend help me to understand how it is that one Minister comes to the House telling us that we

1531
need the temporary employment subsidy, job creation, and schemes by which people count lamp posts, while another Minister comes along wanting to sack thousands of workers all for the sake of stockpiling a bit of steel? Does my right hon. Friend not recall the problems in the pits, when, through a failure to stockpile coal, many pits were shut and a few years later we could have done with those pits being kept open?
Mr. Varley: I am not deriving any joy from closures or redundancies, and I know that my hon. Friend would not want to misrepresent what I have said today. The reductions have been brought about not by arbitrary ministerial decision but on the basis of discussions between the steel trade unions and the British Steel Corporation on a step-by-step basis. No arbitrary decisions have been taken and where closures are proposed that procedure will be fully observed.
I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government have a stockpile of steel—
Mr. Skinner: Then stockpile some more.
Mr. Varley: The stockpiling was done a year ago and it cost the taxpayer about £89 million. It was done to meet this kind of eventuality. But the facts—and no one can escape these facts—are that at the moment there is a market for 17 million tonnes and the BSC has a theoretical capacity of 25 million or 26 million tonnes. Some of that will be increased, but we shall have to judge it on the basis that I have put before the House today.
Dr. Phipps: In view of my right hon. Friend's statement that further investment in major new projects which have not been begun will be halted, will he reconsider the BSC's plans for the electrical steels industry which, as I understand it, currently means expenditure of some £50 million in developing new capacity at the Orb works and closing down the Cookley works in my constituency, with the loss of 670 steel jobs? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widespread concern being expressed in the West Midlands at the fact that the BSC has decided that the region has no future in steel-making and steel-finishing? Is that the case?
Mr. Varley: The Corporation has given no indication to the Government that any particular area of Britain does
1532
not have a future in steel-making. Ultimately the BSC manages the industry. I know that some projects in the West Midlands are extremely valuable and beneficial to the Corporation. Any reduction in capacity, however, will have to take place on the basis I have announced this afternoon, of an assessment of the market, with the BSC talking directly to the TUC steel committee. If there is agreement, there will be a reduction in that capacity. There will, however, be no arbitrary decision and no diktat by Government.
Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that while the Select Committee has made recommendations to him, no matter what happens there will be close co-operation between the BSC, the Government and the trade unions? Can he assure the House that that has been carried out to its finality, even on the White Paper? May I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that if the steel industry had produced what everyone thought it should in order to keep jobs, the production would have been 43 million tonnes of steel going down to 36 million tonnes and then to 30 million, and that even at 30 million tonnes—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member is not here to defend his Select Committee report now. He may ask a question in which no doubt a little defence will appear.
Mr. Wainwright: I shall defend myself in some other place. What my right hon. Friend has announced means redundancies. May we be assured that redundancy payments will be generous—[HON. MEMBERS: "Don't count on it."] They are bound to be. If anyone does not think so, he is not being realistic. Can we do any more than we have done in the past to put new jobs into areas where steel jobs are being lost?
Mr. Varley: I have explained that British Steel Corporation (Industry) will be doing everything it can about new jobs, and paragraphs 16, 17 and 18 of the White Paper refer to the measures we hope to take. It is not for me to comment further on the Select Committee's report. I shall be introducing legislation after the recess and further reference will be made at that time. I can give my hon. Friend the absolute assurance that the procedures we have agreed with the

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BSC and the TUC steel committee are being fully observed.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 7TH APRIL
Members successful in the Ballot were:

Mr. Thomas Torney.

Mr John Evans.

Mr. Joseph Dean.

BILL PRESENTED
  NUCLEAR SAFEGUARDS AND ELECTRICITY (FINANCE)
  Mr. Secretary Benn, supported by Mr. Secretary Varley, Mr. Joel Barnett, Mr. Frank Judd, Mr. Brynmor John, and Mr. Alex Eadie, presented a Bill to make provision for giving effect to an International Agreement for the application of Safeguards in the United Kingdom in connection with the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons; and to authorise contributions by the Secretary of State to expenditure by the Central Electricity Generating Board in connection with the construction of the second stage of the Board's generating station at Drax; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 96.]

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
  Mr. Speaker: By leave of the House I shall put together the Questions on the two motions.
  Ordered,
  That the Prescription Pricing Authority Regulations 1978 (S.I. 1978, No. 332) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
  That the Prescription Pricing Authority Constitution Order 1978 (S.I. 1978, No. 331) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Tinn.]

  VAT REGULATIONS (AMENDMENT)
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. John Wakeham: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the regulations with respect to the
  1534
  powers of the Commissioners and appeals to a value added tax tribunal; to amend Sections 31 and 40 of the Finance Act 1972; and for connected purposes.
  The Bill would introduce a procedure for appeal against VAT assessments. No doubt the House will be familiar with the case of Mrs. Holvey which was heard in the High Court last November. It attracted a lot of publicity, much of it wide of the mark. One substantial point emerged, however. It was that it is possible for a taxpayer to have to pay over a substantial sum of tax even when a refund is due.
  The appeals procedure for VAT is a relic of the days of purchase tax. I believe that it should be brought into line with the appeals machinery for income tax assessment.
  The procedure under the present law is set out in Section 40 of the Finance Act 1972, which provides that the tax in dispute must be paid over in full before a VAT tribunal can entertain an appeal. The commissioners have power to vary that provision in the case of hardship. The fact that they do so from time to time is evidence that the law is unsatisfactory in that fairness depends upon an appeal to the commissioners rather than upon a statutory right. The present procedure can and does produce real difficulties, particularly for small business men in that they have to find substantial sums of tax which are not due.
  My proposal is to bring the appeals procedure into line with income tax, so that when an appeal is made that part of the tax which is agreed and due should be paid. The disputed tax should be held in abeyance until the appeal has been heard, but the taxpayer runs the risk of substantial interest payments if he with-holds payment of tax for which he is liable.
  My proposal was raised in Committee on the Finance Bill of 1972, which set up the VAT regulations. The main argument used against it then was not that it was unfair but that it would unreasonably delay the collection of tax that was due. In particular, it was argued that, VAT being a new and unknown tax, a considerable number of appeals would arise, particularly in the initial stages. If that argument was valid at the time, I do not believe that it can be used now, as we have had the VAT regulations for

  1535
  six years and the position is obviously much clearer.
  Secondly, since that date we have brought in swingeing rates of interest on overdue tax. It is now 9 per cent., which is not tax-deductible. That was not part of the law in 1972. It would add a strong incentive to pay the tax properly due on an appeal.
  My proposal is not, therefore, revolutionary. It is simple—to give the VAT payer the same rights as the income tax payer.
  It is also not a new proposal. Indeed, I draw the attention of the House to Amendment No. 201 to the Finance Bill of 1972, the intention of which was to do very similar things. That amendment was tabled by three distinguished members of the Treasury Bench—the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Financial Secretary.
  The fact that they tabled that amendment in 1972 would not necessarily commend it to my hon. Friends, but I believe that it prevents Labour Members being against it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It appears that even that is in dispute.
  I make no apology for seeking leave to bring in a separate Bill to improve the methods of collection of tax rather than leaving it until the Finance Bill. One of the main reasons why our tax system is so archaic and complicated is
  1536
  that we tinker with it each year in the Finance Bill, when there is never enough time to do an adequate job. We would do better to put the collection of tax, tax rates, allowances and matters of that sort into one Bill and deal with tax management in another.
  My proposal will be most help to small business men who get themselves into a mess with VAT, for all sorts of reasons, often not their own fault, such as illness. This will give them a better chance of clearing up their problems without the necessity of having to pay on occasions vast sums of VAT which will not be due.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. John Wakeham, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. John Loveridge, Mr. John Cope, Mr. Richard Page, Mr. John MacGregor, Mr. Nicholas Ridley and Mr. Ian Gow.

  VAT REGULATIONS (AMENDMENT)
  Mr. John Wakeham accordingly presented a Bill to amend the regulations with respect to the powers of the Commissioners and appeals to a value added tax tribunal; to amend Sections 31 and 40 of the Finance Act 1972; and for connected purposes; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 21st April and to be printed. [Bill 97.]

  WINDSCALE INQUIRY REPORT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Graham.]
  Mr. Speaker: Before we begin the debate I must inform the House that this is another day when a very large number of hon. Members have indicated to me that they hope to catch my eye during the course of the debate. Each one has a strong claim to speak. As a result of the statement, we have lost the extra hour proposed by the suspension of the rule. It will be possible for hon. Members to be called, therefore, only if those who precede them exercise strong self-discipline.
  I honestly think that it is not asking too much to request hon. Members to co-operate in this way. It is selfish and inconsiderate for any hon. Member to ignore the fact that other hon. Members who feel equally strongly may be denied the chance to speak if their colleagues take more than their fair share of the debate.
  I have one last request. Please do not come to the Chair in supplication. In the mining village in which I grew up, the local store displayed a notice which said "Please do not ask for credit, as a refusal often offends." The same applies here.
  4.35 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Shore): I welcome this debate because I believe that the matters covered by the Windscale report go far beyond those normally raised by a planning inquiry and because it is right that these matters should be debated in this House.
  Under the Town and Country Planning Act when major cases are called in, they are decided by me as Secretary of State. Let me say straight away that only in the most exceptional circumstances would I wish to depart from this normal procedure under which I exercise my decision-making power under the planning Acts.
  On this occasion I have chosen a different way. What is unique to this case is that the planning application itself—for outline planning permission to construct a major chemical engineering plant for reprocessing spent oxide nuclear
  1538
  fuel at Windscale—is patently of small importance compared with the major environmental, national and international issues which took up the greater part of the 100-day inquiry and which form the core of Mr. Justice Parker's report.
  The major issues, to which I shall return later, are as follows. The first is the contribution to our total energy supply that nuclear power stations will make over the next 25 years and more. The second is the best and safest way of disposing of the nuclear wastes and emissions that nuclear energy inevitably creates. The third is how to secure nuclear installations and nuclear fuels against attack and theft without unacceptable damage to the civil liberties that people cherish. Last and by no means least is the issue of how the legitimate demand of non-weapon States for a secure supply of nuclear materials for power generation can be met with the least danger of misuse or diversion as source material for nuclear weapons.
  In dealing with these problems in the context of the Windscale report we are in fact facing the essence of the dilemma which the use of nuclear power poses for mankind. From the very beginning of the nuclear era, that is to say, from the first explosion in the New Mexico desert, and the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, the world has known of the terrible potential for destruction that splitting the atom has brought—both its immense explosive power and the even more fearsome and ongoing consequences of nuclear radiation, and, at the same time, of its tremendous potential as a new source of power for peaceful purposes. This dilemma, I repeat, has been there from the start, and with it the key question of how the peaceful development of nuclear power can be promoted without radiation and harm to our own and succeeding generations and without at the same time opening up the threat of the ever-wider spread of nuclear weapons.
  The problem has become ever more pressing and more widespread, first, because in the period up to 1973 one country after another—19 in all—has constructed reactors for nuclear power, with our own country for some time in the lead; secondly, because, since 1973, when the price of oil quadrupled and its supply

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  became subject to overt political control, and when it was brought home to us very vividly that known and recoverable supplies of oil and gas were in any case finite, vastly extended programmes for nuclear power have been approved. I understand that over 200 reactors are now under construction and that a further 150 are planned in about 27 countries, that is more than double the number built in the whole period up to 1973.
  No one can be certain about future energy supplies and the demands that will be made upon them. Forecasts of the extent of the so-called energy gap and its effect on different countries are inevitably subject to wide margins of error. But even with the most rigorous policies to conserve energy and the most energetic pursuit of new sources of energy supply, substantial further development of nuclear power in the main industrial countries and in the newly industrialising countries, too, seems now unavoidable.
  In the United Kingdom our reliance on nuclear power is likely to be more modest by comparison with some other highly industrialised countries, mainly because of our large reserves of coal, oil and gas, but even so it is clear that we must have a nuclear component if we are to maintain our industrial base and an acceptable standard of living. The existing Magnox reactors, together with the advanced gas-cooled reactors already operating or under construction, will provide about 10 gigawatts of capacity, and should contribute about 20 per cent. of our electricity in the 1980s. By the year 2000 thermal reactor capacity is likely to be substantially greater.
  This is the broad context in which the Windscale inquiry must be set, and, indeed, these were the background thoughts that led me in the first place to establish the inquiry. But before I turn to the issues raised by the inquiry let me deal with what has, I believe, been a widespread misconception.
  It is often said that the proposal to reprocess oxide fuel is inseparably linked to a major nuclear programme involving FBRs. This is not so, for two separate and quite different reasons; first that the plutonium retrieved by reprocessing could be used again in existing thermal reactors, though less efficiently; and, second, that we in Britain already have sufficient plutonium from our existing
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  Magnox reprocessing plants—and shall have more in the years ahead—to enable us, should we decide to do so, to fuel not only the CFR1 but seven more fast-breeder reactors, taking us well into the 21st century. As the inspector rightly concludes, the case for reprocessing can be judged on its own merits, independently of the question whether we decide to embark upon a fast-breeder programme.
  It is no secret that initially many interests were opposed to the inquiry. To BNFL and a large section of British industry, to the Japanese Government and power industry, to many trade unions and to many others deeply concerned, as we all are, with the future of our economy and our standard of living, the prospect of delay was very unwelcome. Even so, I decided to have an inquiry for two simple reasons. The first was that I was not satisfied that all the relevant information was available either to the Cumbria County Council or to myself on which to base a fully reasoned and informed decision. The second was my strongly held belief that major new developments in nuclear power must be a subject of public scrutiny and of impartial examination, so that a decision could be reached in full awareness of the views of ordinary citizens as well as of experts from outside the agencies directly engaged in the production, operation and regulation of nuclear facilities. To help secure this I appointed, as the House knows, a very distinguished judge as inspector, and I further appointed as his assessors two men of outstanding eminence in the fields of radiology and chemical engineering.
  In my letter of appointment, I made it plain that I wanted the inspector to consider not only the conventional planning issues but the larger questions of the implications of the proposal for health and safety and for the national interest. In the 100 days of inquiry that took place last summer, more than 4 million words of evidence were heard and every aspect of the matter was raised and made subject to cross-examination before the inspector. The scope of the inquiry was exceptionally wide-ranging and I have heard of only one of the parties who thought that the inquiry arrangements were inadequate.
  Indeed, I doubt whether any country in the Western world has had a more open and thorough examination of a major nuclear proposal than we have had

  1541
  at Windscale. It has attracted world attention and respect, not least in those countries experiencing public disquiet at their own proposed nuclear developments.
  But in my own view, the open procedure would have been incomplete if, at the end of the day, when all the parties to the inquiry had been heard, Parliament itself had been excluded from the debate. I make no apology, therefore, for making use of the special development order procedure that permits the House and me to debate the report before a final decison is made.
  I have already said, in my statement to the House on 6th March, that I found the inspector's report to be cogent and persuasive. It is now my duty to say why. The proposal that the inspector had to consider was, as the House knows, the application by British Nuclear Fuels Limited for outline planning permission to build a plant with the capacity of 1,200 tons a year to reprocess spent oxide fuels at Windscale.
  In examining the report and in considering its recommendations, I had three considerations that weighed heavily with me. The first concerned waste management and whether the proposed development posed any unacceptable risk to the environment and to the health of our people. The second was whether it presented security problems of such a kind as to pose a new challenge to our democratic way of life. The third was whether the development would adversely affect our policy to prevent proliferation of nuclear weapons. These three matters are dealt with extensively in Mr. Justice Parker's report, and I shall deal with each in turn.
  First, then, the risk to the environment. There can be no escaping from the fact that spent fuel has to be dealt with in some way. If we do not reprocess it we shall have to store it for long periods. This is not an easy environmental option.
  So we have to consider very carefully whether reprocessing offers the better choice. But let me say at once that if I considered that reprocessing involved any significant radiological danger to the general public, to workers or to the environment, there would be no question of my giving outline planning permission for the proposals which BNFL has put forward.
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  The inspector examined the various risks in great detail. He concluded, first, that he had no reason to doubt that BNFL would achieve its objective in limiting routine discharges to the environment from the proposed new plant, and that these discharges would be kept to a level which, with all other emissions from Windscale, would still leave the maximum dose to the most exposed members of the public at a fraction of the limits derived from the recommendations of the International Commission on Radiological Protection. Secondly, because of the number of safety arrangements which would be built into the system, he saw the risk of a major accidental release of radioactivity as remote. Thirdly, he saw no significant increase of risk from accident during the transport of materials.
  I agree with the inspector's analysis, but we do not live in a static situation. If new evidence causes us to revise our view of the radiological risks, whether to the work force or to the public at large, we have both the obligation and the means to enforce higher standards. The design, construction and operation of nuclear installations are subject to a system of licensing by the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate.
  Discharges of radioactive wastes to the environment are controlled under the Radioactive Substances Act 1960 and require my ministerial authority and that of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The basic principles which we observe are that the resultant radiation doses to the public shall, irrespective of cost, be kept within the limits recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection—I repeat, irrespective of cost—and that, as far as is reasonably practicable, these doses shall be reduced far below these levels. Should it prove necessary, in the light of fresh scientific evidence, to impose tighter requirements on BNFL, the Government would be able to do this, and those requirements would have to be complied with if the reprocessing plant were to operate at all. I am satisfied that the level of risk, and the controls at our disposal, are not such as to require me to refuse planning permission on those grounds.

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  There are, however, more compelling as well as more positive waste management reasons for reprocessing. As the House will recall, the Government, in their White Paper "Nuclear Power and the Environment", welcomed the report of the Flowers Royal Commission. We accepted the Commission's view that we must put much greater effort into the management of nuclear wastes, and develop means for their ultimate disposal. The nuclear waste management function became one of my responsibilities as Secretary of State for the Environment, along with my Scottish and Welsh colleagues. I have, therefore, examined with particular care the views of the inspector on matters of waste management and disposal.
  Broadly speaking, there are two possible ways forward. The first is the storage of spent fuel for eventual disposal either in its complete form or after some form of treatment. The second is reprocessing and vitrification of highly active waste, pending ultimate disposal. I accept the inspector's conclusions about the storage of waste. Our Magnox fuel cannot be kept for more than a year or so before we have to reprocess it. Nor can we store our AGR spent fuel indefinitely in ponds. There is a risk that it might deterioriate to a point where it presented a serious hazard.
  If we decided not to reprocess, we should have to design and develop new facilities for long-term storage. This would be expensive and would take time. I share the inspector's view that, in the end, we should be unlikely to decide to dispose permanently of spent fuel without reprocessing—partly for reasons of safety, and partly for reasons of fuel economy. In that event the risks would be increased. The fuel would be older, and therefore, perhaps, in worse condition. The expertise would have been dispersed, and to make up for lost time we might have to start reprocessing on a bigger scale than we should have done initially.
  Reprocessing and the vitrification of highly active waste seems the more promising approach, in our circumstances, to nuclear waste disposal. To begin with, reprocessing reduces the volume of highly active waste that we have to dispose of. It means that the plutonium and the unused uranium in the spent fuel would
  1544
  not be left in the waste for permanent disposal, with whatever hazard that entails. Having removed the usable fuel, it is possible to vitrify the high-level waste that remains.
  I find the inspector's view convincing that highly active waste in the form of glass is likely to be safer for long-term disposal. My conclusion, therefore, is that for environmental reasons we should pursue the reprocessing and vitrification route to long-term disposal, where our research and development is much further advanced, rather than adopt a new and less promising approach.
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: On this point, does my right hon. Friend agree that the vitrification process is one that is so far not proved?
  Mr. Shore: The vitrification process has been subject to a great deal of research and pilot demonstration. I believe, again, that the evidence is clear that it offers a promising solution to the problem.
  Dr. Colin Phipps: There remains, however, the problem of disposal of the vitrified waste itself. Is my right hon. Friend aware that an international geological symposium on this very question, held at Strathclyde University before Christmas and attended by over 100 geologists from all over the world, came to the conclusion that at present there is no safe geological formation in which such waste could be buried at any stage?
  Mr. Shore: My hon. Friend knows, and I think that the House knows, that in the sense in which my hon. Friend used the word "safe", there is no perfectly safe way of disposing of either non-reprocessed waste or reprocessed waste. It may well be a case for not proceeding along the paths of nuclear development at all. We shall have to get to that particular argument. But frankly, that is not the major argument that is implied in the permission sought by BNFL.
  There is, additionally, the resource argument that the plutonium and uranium contained in the spent fuel represent too important an indigenous energy resource for us to waste it. The bulk of uranium resources is concentrated in North America, Australia and South Africa, and only negligible amounts are available

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  within other Western industrialised nations. This is an important argument. But if environmental risks pointed in the opposite direction, the loss would have to be accepted—because the safety of future generations must be of paramount importance.
  I come next to the question of terrorism and the fear that the measures that we might have to take to protect plutonium produced in reprocessing could be incompatible with a free society. I recognise and respect this fear, and I certainly cannot give any absolute guarantee against terrorist attack on this or any other major installation.
  Nevertheless, the Government have long recognised these hazards. We have considerable experience in maintaining the security of existing stocks of plutonium derived from the reprocessing of Magnox fuel. Strict security precautions are taken both at the Windscale site and for the transit of plutonium to and from Wind-scale. The measures taken have been greatly strengthened in recent years. The arangements are based on international guidelines recommended by the International Atomic Energy Agency. They include the provision of perimeter fences and associated equipment, secure inner areas, and armed guards. The security measures, of course, apply to movements of fuel assemblies or plutonium by all modes of transport—by land, sea and air—whether entirely within this country or whether they start or finish overseas. They are designed to cope with attempts at malicious interference, as well as possible accidents.
  The House will not expect me to go into detail, but the measures taken are kept under review and inspected periodically by the Government's security advisers with a view to maintaining the highest standards.
  The inspector has made it clear in his report that the reprocessing plant would be designed with as much inbuilt security as possible. This is in line with the Government's policy set out in our White Paper "Nuclear Power and the Environment".
  The House will recall that these questions engaged the serious attention of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, figuring prominently in the
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  Flowers Report. The Commission was satisfied that the risks at the present level of nuclear development were small and that the security measures in force or planned were adequate for present circumstances. The Commission's concern was directed to the security situation which might exist in the next century, in which there were much larger stocks, and more frequent movements, of plutonium than at present.
  I now turn to the important question of civil liberties.
  Mr. Tom Litterick: Does the Secretary of State agree, however, that the chapter in the report that deals with terrorism and civil liberties is far less explicit, far less detailed and far less informative than any other chapter in the report? Perhaps we all understand the logic of the inspector, but it means that the public and the country cannot be as well informed on this matter as, for instance, the Secretary of State, and therefore we have no way of judging whether the Secretary of State's judgment is a good one.
  Mr. Shore: I understand and, to some extent, I sympathise with the point made by my hon. Friend, but I believe that it is an inherent difficulty, just as at the Parker inquiry itself there was general agreement between the inspector and the witnesses that they would not go into details of either possible threats or possible counter-measures. I believe that the House itself is faced with precisely that dilemma. It is a dilemma from which I personally cannot see how we can escape.
  Mr. Litterick: Let us have a closed sitting.
  Mr. Shore: I was mentioning the question of civil liberties. It is, of course, the threat of terrorism which poses a threat to democratic society, not the peaceful use of nuclear power. I share the inspector's view that the building of a reprocessing plant will not itself involve any significant new interference with civil liberties. I am certain that the Royal Commission was right to warn us of the possible dangers for the future which will need to be assessed before we decide on a major commitment to large-scale, nuclear development. Meanwhile I am sure that the Government, and I

  1547
  know this House, will be vigilant in protecting our liberties against encroachment.
  The third and major consideration I mentioned was whether the development would adversely affect our policy to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons. The House will recall that as long ago as March 1976 the Government decided that BNFL should be allowed to take on further contracts from overseas customers for the reprocessing of irradiated fuel. This was subject to provisos that contracts included an option to return the residual radioactive waste to the country of origin and that suitable understandings in support of this option should be reached between the United Kingdom Government and the Government of the country concerned. The proposals for the new plant include providing a capacity for foreign reprocessing, including reprocessing under a contract already on offer to us from the Japanese utilities. No contract has however been signed since I called in BNFL's planning application and set up the Windscale inquiry.
  The foreign business, particularly the Japanese contract, offers considerable financial and economic advantages. By building a bigger plant, we should achieve significant economies of scale. There would be big gains to the balance of payments. The value of the Japanese contract was put to the inquiry as some £200 or more million at the prices then obtaining. European contracts might be worth as much again. In addition, there would be a further contract to transport fuel from Japan to both Windscale and to the French plant at Cap de la Hague which could be worth another £200 million to £250 million.
  Foreign business does mean, however—and this for many is the crux—the return of the plutonium separated in the course of reprocessing. Clearly this raises issues that go far beyond the calculus of economic gain, and we should need to be fully satisfied that by so doing we would not be undermining our major interest in making effective the non-proliferation treaty. If we were not so satisfied we could not, and should not, proceed. My right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will cover this ground in more detail at a later
  1548
  stage in the debate. But I want to touch on some aspects now.
  The key question which the report poses is whether non-proliferation is more likely to be helped by existing nuclear weapon States providing processed fuels under strict safeguards or whether the effects of denying reprocessed nuclear fuels to non-weapon States is more likely to encourage, if not to drive, them to develop their own reprocessing plants. Let us face these facts. The basic information about the technology of reprocessing is widely available. Many countries could develop it with a sustained effort. Several non-nuclear weapon States already possess pilot reprocessing facilities and others have some experience of the basic technology. Moreover, many of the countries concerned believe that both for energy and environmental reasons reprocessing is to be preferred to storage.
  It has been argued that it makes little difference whether our customers reprocess their own plutonium or we return plutonium to them. I disagree. When plutonium is returned under the proposed contractual arrangements it will be in known quantities under safeguards and for known peaceful purposes. That is a very different matter from local production of plutonium which inevitably would be far less easily controlled or supervised. As the House will know, the inspector concluded that the reprocessing of fuel from non-nuclear weapon States, far from conflicting with our policy of non-proliferation, would in fact reinforce it.
  However, I scarcely need remind the House that there are other routes to making nuclear weapons than through extracting plutonium via reprocessing. We must continue to apply safeguards to them all. It is for this reason that through the Nuclear Suppliers Group, in which we have been prime movers, we have agreed to apply internationally aproved controls to all our nuclear supplies.
  Mr. Robin F. Cook: Before my right hon. Friend leaves that point, may I ask him whether he is aware that Mr. Justice Parker recommended that the fuel could be returned in the form of irradiated fuel rods? Can my right hon. Friend give

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  the Government's response to that suggestion and say whether we may expect to see that in the contract?
  Mr. Shore: I would not go that far at present. All I can say is that in the nine or 10 years that will elapse between now and the completion of this new plant—if we are to go ahead with it—various ways and methods of reducing the possibilities of misuse of nuclear fuels—including the possibility of irradiating them—will most certainly be examined.
  Mr. David Penhaligon: Can the Secretary of State possibly give the House some guidance as to what effect the costing of the whole Windscale plant would have if it goes in for the spiking of returned plutonium?
  Mr. Shore: Inevitably the costings cannot be precise, but there is no reason to believe that irradiating fuels would in itself lead to such an escalation of price as to make the thing economically unviable.
  These controls will extend to the plutonium received for reprocessing and returned to our customers. To prevent nuclear proliferation is a major national objective. If we thought that the Windscale proposals would encourage it, we would most certainly not allow them.
  I have dealt so far with the issues determining whether we approve reprocessing. But when we have reached a conclusion on these we still have to turn to two other questions—should the plant be built to the full size that BNFL suggest, and should it go ahead now?
  The answer to the size question emerges from points I have already made. We shall need in any event to reprocess fuel from our own AGRs and, even with a minimal nuclear programme, we are likely to need a plant with a throughput of some 600 tonnes a year. There are important financial and economic advantages in providing extra capacity for foreign reprocessing. We believe we are in no sense undermining, but are enhancing, non-proliferation objectives by undertaking the reprocessing of fuel from non-nuclear weapon States. It is therefore right for us to allow the plant to be built to the size BNFL proposes.
  Next, the question of timing. It was argued at the inquiry that there would
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  be great advantage in delaying a start on the new plant. It was suggested that this would not close any of our options so long as the spent fuel was stored for future retrieval. I understand that it is likely to be argued today—the Liberal Leader has said so, and outside bodies have focused upon it—that work on the plant should be delayed at least until the outcome of the international fuel cycle evaluation is known in about two years' time.
  Let me say a word about INFCE first. Its work will cover the whole fuel cycle, and there is, of course, no obligation under the terms of our participation for us to defer a decision on nuclear projects. We and other countries agreed to take part on that understanding. But, more important, it is not realistic just to assume that the participating Governments—all 40 of them—will come to an agreement that reprocessing, which many of them have long anticipated, is now not necessary and should be abandoned. We hope, however—and we shall work for it—that INFCE will recommend better safeguards, with perhaps greater international participation, for sensitive nuclear plants and movements of nuclear materials.
  As the inspector reported, there are a number of reasons why delay is not acceptable. First we must decide our future policy for dealing with spent oxide fuel which is already arising from our existing AGRs and which will increase as new reactors come into operation. I have told the House why I think that reprocessing is the better long-term route for ultimate disposal. I do not believe it is realistic to hope that if we delay construction, the need for the new plant might meanwhile disappear. Our future waste arisings rule this out. And without the plant we shall, of course, lose all prospect not just of the Japanese contract but of contracts with other countries in Europe.
  Mr. Frank Dooley: One point on which my right hon. Friend has been absolutely silent so far is the United States decision not to reprocess. It is incorrect to suggest to the House that this is a contract simply between this country and Japan, for example, because the United States is a contractual party and would have a right to decide

  1551
  whether the contract went through or not. At this moment the United States is opposed to reprocessing.
  Mr. Shore: I am aware of the United States proposals, which were discussed in the course of the Windscale inquiry. I shall leave it to my right hon. Friend when he winds up the debate to go into the larger issues involved. However, there are very clear differences of situation between the United States and ourselves. First, the United States uses zircaloy-clad fuels which have a much longer life than the steel-clad fuels that we use. This means that the United States has a longer time before it needs to make a decision on reprocessing. Another factor is that the United States has probably the largest concentration of natural uranium in the world.
  I attach importance to the arguments about not dispersing the professional and management expertise on which we have to rely in designing and operating the plant. I see the advantages of building up the scale of operations at a reasonable rate so that experience can be gradually gained of a new technique for dealing with heavily irradiated spent oxide fuel.
  I agree with the inspector that if we are going to reprocess, it is preferable to start without further delay. To those who ask, "Why the hurry?", I say only that several years have passed since negotiations with overseas countries began, and it is now two years since the Government gave approval in principle to the overseas contracts. It will be another nine to ten years before the plant will begin to operate.
  Mr. D. E. Thomas: Before the Secretary of State leaves the question of timing and the start of expansion at Windscale, will he accept that the basic issue has not been considered in the context of the inquiry—namely, the issue of the extent to which the necessary reprocessing facilities must be related to the percentage of energy generated by nuclear power in Britain? Has he taken account of the evidence given to the inquiry by Professor Odell, who is an adviser to the Secretary of State for Energy?
  Mr. Shore: On the immediate expectations of our own nuclear thermal plant
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  and the future nuclear power programme of a conventional kind, we shall need a reprocessing plant with a capacity of 600 tonnes a year.
  To sum up then, the Government believe that Mr. Justice Parker's report, based upon all the mass of evidence submitted, and assisted, as he was, by the great expertise of the most distinguished radiological and chemical engineering assessors we could find, has shown that this reprocessing can be carried out without any significant increase in radiological risk; that environmentally it offers a better option than the alternative of storing our spent fuel for disposal in a form which includes the plutonium and unused uranium; that the security risks can be contained in ways compatible with our democratic way of life; and that the reprocessing of foreign fuel does not run counter to our policy to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
  For all these reasons I commend the report to the House. In the light of its conclusions, I propose, subject to the views expressed in this debate, to lay before the House a special development order to permit the development for which planning permission has been sought.
  At the end of his report the inspector made a number of recommendations which he clearly regards as important steps to improve existing arrangements. Some of them are now accepted practice—for example, setting specific discharge limits for each significant radionucleide. A start has already been made on implementing others—for example, a more systematic monitoring of all discharges to the environment.
  BNFL has informed me that it proposes, in the light of the inspector's recommendation, to pursue the necessary research into the development of a Krypton arrestment plant and that it will design THORP so that the plant can be added if and when this becomes reasonably practicable.
  I can assure the House that the Government intend to give careful attention to all the inspector's recommendations, and I will make a statement as soon as we have reached decisions. In addition, I shall be imposing conditions along the lines he has recommended in chapter 14 of his report in the special development

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  order that I propose to lay before the House.
  Mr. Michael Jopling: The matter about the recommendations is of crucial importance to all those who live in Cumbria. We welcome the intention of a statement of Government reaction to the recommendations. Will this happen before the next debate on the order?
  Mr. Shore: There are two separate points here. It was suggested that some of the inspector's recommendations should be part of the planning permission itself. I intend to embody these recommendations in the special development order. However, he makes other more far-reaching recommendations which we are examining and which we shall proceed to adopt as speedily as we can when we have finished our study of them.
  Finally, I want to look at the broader picture ahead. I repeat my own strongly held belief that new and important nuclear projects must be the subject of public scrutiny and impartial examination. In this case the public inquiry has been a major element in such a process. This debate is another. What procedure we should follow in future cases is still open. This is new territory and we are still working out our ideas.
  There is a whole variety of ways in which we can ensure that the development of our nuclear policy results from deliberate decisions taken after full examination and wide public debate. As the House knows, I have already undertaken that there will be a wide-ranging public inquiry in some form if we were to embark on the first commercial fast breeder reactor, and the Government have undertaken that a special procedure for public consultation should be established if at some stage a full-scale programme of fast breeder reactors was proposed.
  Furthermore, I and my environmental colleagues are determined, in exercising our responsibilities in this uniquely important field, to draw on the expertise of as wide a range of independent scientific opinion as we can, and, by making their advice widely known, to open up discussion of the relevant issues so that the public as a whole can play its part.
  To this end we hope shortly to announce the appointment of the radio-
  1554
  active waste management advisory committee foreshadowed in the White Paper we published last May in response to the Flowers Commission. By this means we shall, we hope, secure the most expert advice available to us on the management of radioactive waste. On the wider front, the House will have noticed that the Government now set up, under the chairmanship of Sir Brian Flowers, the Commission on Energy and the Environment. This new body will consider the interaction of energy policies and the environment across the board. It will be concerned with all forms of energy, including renewable sources.
  I have tried to set out my own approach to and my own thinking about these serious issues. I think, Mr. Speaker, I have said enough to demonstrate that the Government will not be pushed or rushed into crucial decisions on the future of our nuclear programme.
  I do not doubt that when the House has completed its own consideration of the Windscale report, public debate on this and on other aspects of nuclear power will continue. That is right in an alert democracy. There are of course a minority among the objectors, who, faced with the dilemma—the menace and the benefit inseparable and inherent in nuclear power—that I described at the beginning, will say "No" to all new development. Logically they would wish to close down the nuclear installations that we already have and they are—quite courageously—prepared to accept the immense economic consequences of such an act of self-denial. There are those, on the other hand, who are so impervious to the dangers, so persuaded by the advocates of nuclear technology, so convinced of the coming calamity of energy shortage, that they dismiss with impatience all deliberation and delay.
  But I believe that the great majority of our people, including many of the objectors and the protagonists at Wind-scale, as well as a minority of the Members of this House, will take a different view, and that they will approve—perhaps with reservations—the open and cautious approach that we have adopted. They will have confidence—but not blind faith—in the skill and integrity of our scientists and engineers. They will be fully conscious of—but not paralysed by—the great risks as well as the benefits that

  1555
  increased nuclear power can bring. They will know that all major new developments in the nuclear field now and in the future will be openly and stringently examined. Finally they will be assured that this Government—and I believe all their successors—will proceed, and be allowed to proceed, only when the weight of evidence and all the relevant factors indicate that it is the right and responsible thing to do.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. Tom King: I should like to start by congratulating the Secretary of State for the Environment on his speech. He has had to master a complex and involved subject with which some of us with energy responsibilities have to live a little more. I think that the whole House will have been impressed by the way in which he presented the Government's case. We are also grateful to him for the fact that he has made this debate possible by the somewhat unusual procedure to which we readily acceded. We did so because we shared his view that it was unthinkable that Parliament should not have a part to play in this important decision.
  However, one is bound to add one's regret and surprise that the Secretary of State for Energy is playing no part in this debate. I mean no disrespect to the Foreign Secretary, since the overseas implications are real, but the Secretary of State for Energy is the sponsoring Minister for BNFL, the Minister who authorised BNFL to proceed with negotiations on the Japanese contract which is at the heart of this matter—yet he is to be a silent passenger throughout the debate. We must regret that.
  Mr. Shore: The hon. Gentleman will wish to be fair, I think. I am sure that if the debate had been closed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy—as he would have been quite happy to do—there would have been equal objections from other hon. Members that the Foreign Secretary had been excluded.
  Mr. King: I think that the Secretary of State will understand the point that I am making. I would add that we welcome the strikingly different and non-equivocal approach to this subject from that which
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  we more often have from the Secretary of State for Energy.
  Mr. Litterick: You are obsessed with him. Get on with it.
  Mr. King: I sincerely congratulate the Secretary of State on affording us the opportunity for this debate, but I think that the House will agree that that opportunity carries a major responsibility. Mr. Justice Parker has played a valuable part in the process of this decision, but he is not the final arbiter. Parliament has an important role to play.
  Mr. Justice Parker referred to his report as an element in this decision, and that is correct. Now it is Parliament's turn to discharge its responsibilities and we have to approach this decision in the wider political context. We know that there have been some criticisms of the report, some of them due perhaps to the fact that people were expecting too much of Mr. Justice Parker—as though he could resolve the political issues and take the ultimate political decisions as well.
  When one considers this wide and major issue, involving considerations of Government energy, environmental and foreign policy, one understands why this finally has to be a political decision taken by Ministers accountable to Parliament. Towards that process, Mr. Justice Parker's report is a valuable contribution.
  In exercising the responsibility that we owe the country on this occasion, I hope that we shall be able to avoid the sort of scaremongering and the exaggerated claims which have marked some of the debate on this issue in the, country and in the newspapers. Every hon. Member—whether or not, like me, he has nuclear power stations in his constituency—knows that there are causes for concern over nuclear power. Mr. Justice Parker specifically says that there are grounds for anxiety.
  But I hope that hon. Members will tonight put these matters in a proper perspective. It was interesting to see in the report how easily misunderstandings and confusions arise. The incident of the blistered fish in the Irish Sea was one example of something which turned out to have been a long-established event. Perhaps the Foreign Secretary will be able to give us the medical title for the virus involved. However, it was not

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  attributable to the subject that we are discussing tonight.
  In one Sunday newspaper, which had better be nameles on this occasion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] When I have told hon. Members what it said, they will understand. In an authoritative article, it said that, by the year 2000, there would be 1 million reactors in the world, and that, because the probability of accident was postulated at one million to one, it was therefore probable that there would be one reactor accident every year.
  If the public are served with that sort of ludicrous and misleading information, it is no wonder that there is concern. I hope that the House will play its part in avoiding such exaggeration.
  I certainly hope that this debate will not be used for the sort of political opportunism which the issue does not require. If the report that I have heard is true—that one political party, which perhaps also had better remain nameless, has thought of dividing the House on such a serious matter—I would regard that as the cheapest form of political involvement.
  I hope also that we can recognise, as do the more serious commentators and those concerned about this issue, that we should avoid polarisation. I was pleased to see in the report Mr. Justice Parker's tribute to the balanced moderation shown by the Friends of the Earth at the inquiry—which is exactly what I would have expected of that organisation. That tribute unfortunately was not extended to all the witnesses. Any of us who studies the subject knows the problems.
  I hope also that we shall recognise that this is not a battle between nuclear enthusiasts and the environmentalists. There are plenty of sincere people who believe that the nuclear solution is the best environmental solution and who, from an environmental standpoint, have come to support the nuclear case.
  As was made clear in an intervention earlier, some people see the root of this problem in the basic concept of nuclear power. It is therefore my duty at the start to make clear the Conservative Party's position on nuclear power itself. All our problems and all the discussions flow from the basic adoption of a measure of nuclear power.
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  My first agreement with Mr. Justice Parker is in his refusal to adopt any specific energy forecast for the future. Anyone who has studied this problem knows that the only certainty about any energy forecast is that it will be wrong. The hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) was concerned that Professor Peter Odell's forecasts of energy supplies had not been taken into account by Mr. Justice Parker. Professor Odell would have been the first to be surprised if they had, because he is well aware that he represents a minority view in that respect.
  I think that I am right to say that, although certain objectors have tried to claim that Professor Odell is an adviser to the Secretary of State for Energy, he is not an adviser in that respect. The Secretary of State may like to correct that, but I think that it is the position. I therefore agree that one cannot take a specific energy forecast for the future.
  Therefore, with that uncertainty, we take the same view as was expressed in the Flowers Report. We have no interest in nuclear power for its own sake. We have no desire to see nuclear power expanded beyond its needs. We do not accept an inevitable commitment to expansion of nuclear power, first because we believe that there is the greatest scope for conservation. I think that that theme was implicit in certain interventions. We certainly believe that there is much greater scope than has been shown for a reduction of the growth of energy demand—perhaps even a net reduction.
  We also believe that the possibilities of alternative new sources of energy must be investigated much more vigorously. We certainly hope that those will be successful. The fact that every hon. Member has to recognise is that there is no single guarantee, in any one of the new so-called renewable energy sources, either as to in what quantity or at what date such supplies might be available. It is against that background, with no guarantee of alternative energy sources, and with the knowledge of the possibility—I do not make any more claim than that—that our fossil fuel reserves will diminish, that nuclear power could have a role to play.
  We think that it would be an act of the gravest irresponsibility to abandon that option now. We believe, with Mr.

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  Justice Parker, that it is right for that option to be kept open. But we recognise that, if that option is kept open, it brings with it the problems of waste and the question of re-processing. We know, as the Secretary of State has said, that the problem of re-processing is not new. It is not implicit in some future programme. It is `with us now, with our Magnox, our advanced gas-cooled reactor programme, and the planned programme of nuclear reactors round the world.
  It is against that background that I turn specifically to Mr. Justice Parker's report. I pay tribute to this remarkable document. I slightly regret the tone of one or two of the comments about the witnesses, but that may be a reflection of the sheer physical ordeal that we imposed on Mr. Justice Parker. I believe that the report is a quite remarkable achievement in very many respects.
  I should like to identify some common ground. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) may be referring to some aspects of the conventional planning issues. These seem to be well covered in Mr. Justice Parker's report, and I do not propose to spend time on them. The longest chapter, dealing with routine discharges, is very thorough and useful, and there are important recommendations on monitoring. I noted the Secretary of State's comment that he would proceed to adopt the recommendations after studying them. I am not clear whether that was an undertaking that they would all be adopted. Perhaps his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will clarify that in his winding-up speech. We attach great importance to those recommendations. I know that those of my hon. Friends with constituencies in the area certainly do.
  I turn next to the issues of need, safety and proliferation. The Secretary of State has covered very well the issue of need. There will be waste, and we believe that the arguments for reprocessing set out in the report are persuasive. The point is made in the closing chapter that reprocessing will be a necessity for at least one of the weapon States for the fuels which fail in reactors or deteriorate in storage. I know that a considerable number of hon. Members will wish to deal with the question of need, and I shall not seek to deploy some of the
  1560
  arguments of the Secretary of State on this aspect with which I agree.
  Need can be split into two parts. First, there is the need to reprocess. Secondly, there is the question whether we need to reprocess now. Do we need to start this plant so soon? Reference was made to INFCE in this connection. I accept Mr. Justice Parker's arguments about a delay as meaning that maybe later we shall have to rush, with all the hazard that that may involve.
  My understanding is that if the House approves and the Secretary of State authorises this procedure, there will be no start on construction at THORP before 1982 in any case and the first concrete will not be poured before that date. The only thing that will be needed is the construction of the storage ponds, and it will be impossible to sign the order without the knowledge that those ponds can be constructed. But construction of the THORP processing plant will not start before 1982, and that covers abundantly the problem of INFCE. The Foreign Secretary might like to confirm that later, as it is an important point.
  Mr. Leo Abse: If there is no need at all for the order for the necessary design work and the construction of ponds, why cannot we wait for the international fuel cycle evaluation before any decision is made?
  Mr. King: I did not quite understand the hon. Gentleman's question about there being no need for the order. There is a need, as I understand it; if the plant is to proceed on the scale required. Obviously in this connection the Japanese contract makes a valuable contribution to the commercial case. I shall say something later about the way I put commercial arguments in the relative order of importance. But if we are to include the Japanese contract in our calculations, there is a need to confirm that we are prepared to proceed with the order, for which the storage ponds will be required. The hon. Gentleman's intervention raises an important point, and it will be valuable to have the answer at the end from the Foreign Secretary.
  I now turn to the arguments about safety. I said that the commercial arguments have a place, but I am not prepared to consider any commercial arguments

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  first, since it seems to me to have no relevance whatesover unless we accept that the project is basically safe. There was an exchange earlier in the course of which claims were made for absolute safety. I accept that this is a relative matter. The Secretary of State referred to the menace and benefit of nuclear power. That phrase can be applied to many other energy sources as well.
  The House is debating the threat of nuclear energy at the very time when "Amoco Cadiz" is belching out vast quantities of oil across half the Brittany coast. I recall that only three months ago we heard about the King Report—no connection with myself—dealing with gas explosions, which cost many lives in our cities, as a result of the use of natural gas. We also know that Mr. Scargill has quoted, somewhat misleadingly, the figures of deaths in the mines. Even as clean a source as hydro-electric power, involving the use of dams, can also result in accidents. These hazards exist right across the board. I recommend to hon. Members the very important report issued by the Health and Safety Commission, which discusses the relative hazards of conventional sources of energy.
  It is against that background that I make no apology for saying that we cannot talk about absolute safety in these matters. We can talk only of relative safety. In that respect, it must be accepted that the current record of the nuclear industry is quite remarkably good.
  Mr. Litterick: Does the hon. Gentleman not concede that there is a qualitative difference between a man being killed or maimed in a coal mine and a matter of possible genetic mutation, which is a different order of risk for the entire race?
  Mr. King: That is just the sort of thing that I was referring to earlier when I spoke about the misleading fears that could be spread. The hon. Gentleman has no evidence to back up what he has said.
  Mr. Litterick: Who has?
  Mr. King: The current record of the nuclear industry is remarkably good. If I were employed in one of the energy industries, I have no doubt in which I should feel safest.
  We have the figures in the Health and Safety Commission report. I accept that
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  the problem with nuclear power is not what has happened, because the record has been outstanding, but fears of what might happen, but these fears are unproven and the evidence is extremely slender. Dr. Stewart's evidence in the Parker Report and the arguments about what should be the level of emissions and what are hazardous levels lead me to accept that there are dangers and problems that need further investigation.
  However, I know of no field of energy in which there are not potential hazards that need further investigation. For example, the transfer and shipment of liquified natural gas is one area which may occupy increasing attention. We must recognise that there are problems in many areas.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that trade unions in the industry and trade unionists, who are closer to this business than almost anyone, are in favour of the expansion?
  Mr. King: I endorse what the hon. Gentleman said. Of course, he knows the industry extremely well.
  I am also aware that Friends of the Earth, with whom I have discussed these issues, are not actually opposed to the continuing development of thermal nuclear reactors. They may see them as a way to avoid dependence on fast breeder reactors and they may feel that they face Morton's fork. I hesitate to quote Mr. Justice Parker, because I know that some of those who were quoted claim that they were taken out of context, but Walter Paterson is alleged to have said that he was far less worried about pollution from Windscale than about lead from the exhaust of a car. This is, again, a question of balance.
  There is one area of safety in which I identified one apparent difficulty of Mr. Justice Parker on which I hope the Foreign Secretary will comment. On the question of safety and the environmental performance of the plant, it is said that the ultimate responsibility will be with the nuclear inspectorate. Mr. Justice Parker then goes on to question the calibre of the representatives of the inspectorate, but ends his report by saying that ultimately it will have the responsibility and that it does not matter because these aspects will ultimately be under the inspectorate's

  1563
  control. That is a point that should be clarified, because it is not clear.
  I understand entirely the point made earlier that the security and civil liberties aspect is the thinnest and least adequate part of the report, but there are obvious reasons for that. Clearly the recommendations for an independent vetting procedure are important and in this area, as in others, security will ultimately be the responsibility of Ministers and it will be for them to see that it is adequately enforced. It is almost impossible for us to debate this matter, because of the lack of evidence and, arising from the nature of the subject, because of our inability to investigate it further.
  The key issue is the question of non-proliferation. I share the Secretary of State's view that Mr. Justice Parker's arguments are persuasive on this subject. Perhaps he put some slightly undue emphasis on the legalistic interpretation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Whatever one reads into that treaty, the logic of it is clear. There is an implicit bargain in the treaty that, for the consideration of not engaging in their own programmes of nuclear weapons, third countries will not be prevented from access to civil nuclear power. If we say that there will be no reprocessing, it is a positive incitement to third countries to do it themselves. It seems infinitely preferable that reprocessing should be concentrated in the existing weapon States with proper controls on return of fuel.
  However, I do not know how many hon. Members appreciate the strong feelings of third countries about the major nuclear Powers' future attitude to nuclear power. They see the major nations deciding to opt out of nuclear power, buying increasing quantities of fossil fuels and outpricing them in the market. They see the major nations outbidding them for scarce conventional energy supplies and forbidding them access to nuclear power. Even if that is not a recipe for world friction and conflict, it will certainly lead to great difficulties.
  It is important that hon. Members should appreciate that there is very strong feeling in third countries. The Foreign Secretary will be able to back up that fact. That has been my experience of the views of those countries on this sub-
  1564
  ject, and it is an important point which we must consider.
  If, therefore, we decide that, in the interests of non-proliferation, the best way of controlling the hazardous aspects of nuclear fuel would be to concentrate reprocessing in certain weapon States, as at present, we have to recognise that is is not an issue in which we have the sole determination. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will say something about how he sees the future of the project.
  Mr. Justice Parker reminded us that no matter what he had said in his recommendations, they were no guarantee that the project would go ahead. There are technical questions, such as whether BNFL will satisfy the nuclear inspectorate about the design of the plant and be able to meet the emission standards.
  There is also the fundamental point whether the Japanese—not the Government, but the 10 utilities who will be co-signatories of the contract—will be authorised to ship the fuel to this country. That is the MB 10 procedure which, I understand, has been strengthened by the recent Act. Obviously it is a crucial element in whether there will be any Japanese contract.
  I appreciate that the Foreign Secretary may not be able to say much about this matter, but it is important for us to realise that this is the situation. When the House approves the order that will be brought forward, it is not fully guaranteed that the project will proceed.
  As far as Mr. Justice Parker has been able to go within his terms of reference, and subject to the conditions that he has recommended, we believe that he has produced a valuable report and we support his recommendations. We recognise that this marks an important development in the democratic procedure for discussing major projects of this kind, though we recognise that it is not perfect in every respect.
  Mr. Justice Parker drew attention to a number of problems. Nevertheless, on balance we regard the report as a major success. I think that we can learn from the lessons of it. If we proceed, as the Secretary of State indicated, to an inquiry on the fast breeder, we can incorporate the lessons learned to ensure that in issues of this kind, there is a procedure that will enable people to feel that they

  1565
  have been consulted and that the issues have been fairly discussed. Against that background, bearing in mind that a start has been well made and in support of the final conclusions of Mr. Justice Parker, we welcome this debate.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Leo Abse: I agree with the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) in regretting the absence from this debate of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. My right hon. Friend would have been able to repeat what he said in the debate which I had the privilege of initiating on 2nd December last year, when he said:
  "In my political life I have never known such a well-organised scientific, industrial and technical lobby as the nuclear power lobby. It is not so much the Friends of the Earth as what Eisenhower might have called the nuclear industrial complex of which I am aware as a Minister."—[Official Report, 2nd December 1977; Vol. 940, c. 972.]
  In that debate there was a request from both sides of the House that no decision on Windscale should take place without publication of the report and full public and parliamentary involvement in the ultimate decision. Just as the Secretary of State for the Environment has described how British Nuclear Fuels Limited was irritated by his bold decision to call in the planning application, so equally was that organisation and the nuclear industry vexed at the suggestion that there should be the public debate that is now proceeding. They hardly attempted to disguise their impatience.
  The nuclear power lobby from the time of the debate in December set up a well-orchestrated campaign to ensure that the debates should be held speedily and a decision made without delay. That this debate has been so speedily convened two weeks after publication of the report, and that we are threatened with the laying of the order so soon after the recess, must be a source of great satisfaction to the nuclear lobby as it is one of dismay to those of us who recognise the awesome nature of the decision we are making and the compelling reasons that exist for delay.
  In my opinion, we are being hustled into a decision. The House is entitled to ask why, given the time scale revealed at the inquiry, the nation should be so
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  stampeded. The House will be aware of the reasons offered by BNFL on the need to construct this reprocessing plant. It is claimed that reprocessing is desirable as an energy conservation measure and would help to secure indigenous fuel resources; that it would keep open the option which many of us dread—namely, that we could move into the plutonium economy by way of the fast breeder reactor; that the project is needed on waste management grounds; and that the plant should be large enough to reprocess Japanese spent fuel to bring in foreign business and help our balance of payments.
  While BNFL has been putting forward this demand, President Carter has put forward his requests to the world to halt reprocessing. Those requests have been delicately made, from a State which has learned its lesson of the dangers of hubris following the searing experience of Vietnam. The statement was made with such modesty that last week some of America's most distinguished Senators and Representatives, alarmed that President Carter's tact should be malevolently interpreted by the nuclear lobby in Europe, felt compelled to ask the President to be more abrupt in the presentation of the case and to make his proposals clear to all—even to those who, for sinister reasons, wish to obfuscate the issue.
  President Carter's policy found expression in the Downing Street agreement and in the fact that more than 14 nations joined together to use the time created by President Carter's bold initiative by unilaterally deferring indefinitely commercial reprocessing. to have an international nuclear fuel cycle evaluation to explore and assess, in what President Carter called "the pause", the development of technology, including safer arrangements and improved safeguards to permit all nations to achieve their energy objectives while preventing the spread of nuclear weapons.
  Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith (East Grinstead) rose—
  Mr. Abse: No, I do not wish to give way, because if I and others do so, very few Back Benchers will have an opportunity to speak.
  This evaluation of the international fuel cycle is now taking place, and it

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  includes a new assessment of the world uranium supplies which might emancipate the world from early dependence on the plutonium economy which is threatening our lives and liberty. The evaluation is likely to be substantially completed in 18 months' time.
  In my opinion the key question in this debate is whether the reasons proffered by BNFL are so immediately compelling that, although it may be seen—as it will be seen to the world—to be sabotaging President Carter's initiatives to arrest nuclear proliferation, nevertheless post haste we must give BNFL the go-ahead to construct the reprocessing plant. The question is whether the reasons are so clamorous and threatening to the nation that we could find ourselves a few decades hence with a terrifying energy gap if we delay the decision by 18 months or perhaps two years.
  Let me be fair to BNFL. When I put the question last week to the assistant managing director of BNFL, he in no way sought to suggest that three of the four reasons I have just adumbrated would bring any serious disadvantage. I refer to energy conservation, keeping the options open, and waste management. Nobody who has read the Windscale evidence or who has considered the time scale could reach any other conclusion. The answer given to me as the reason repeatedly publicly canvassed in recent months by Mr. Con Allday, the BNFL director, was that delay would result in economic disadvantage and that we would put at risk the gaining of the Japanese contract.
  The nation should clearly understand that the proposition put to us is that if we do not immediately agree to the demands of Japanese commercial and financial interests to become their nuclear dustbin, and out of the bin to return to them the potential atom-bomb plutonium, we could lose hundreds of millions of pounds. But a terrible price will need to be paid by us to gain what, despite its seductive financial advantages, is no fairy godmother contract. It means that we are entering into an export business which will have appallingly malignant side effects.
  When, ignoring Mr. Carter's pleas, we hold out ourselves as a reservoir of the world's nuclear waste and the exporter of plutonium, let none pretend, least of
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  all the Foreign Secretary and the Foreign Office, that whatever gloss they may put upon the matter there do not immediately come into existence, if we go ahead, fundamental differences between us and the United States of America, which the Foreign Secretary rightly described a few weeks ago as our trusted ally. There would be fundamental differences between ourselves and the United States on energy policy.
  Let us not pretend that we can, by any inspectorate system yet devised, control the plutonium which we shall dare to export. Victor Gilinski, the Commissioner of the United States Nuclear Regulating Commission, whose cogent explanations of United States policy should be compulsory reading for every Member of Parliament and every official in the Department of the Environment and the Foreign Office who may seek to smudge the issue, has put the matter squarely. He has mocked those who, panting for profit-making in the export of plutonium and enriched uranium, absurdly claim that all that is needed is to beef up the IAEA current inspections, to have more inspectors and equipment.
  Let me quote some of Mr. Gilinski's comments, because they bear entirely on the responsibility we are taking upon ourselves if we say that we shall be the exporter of plutonium to other countries. He said, talking about this question of the use of inspections to control plutonium if we export it:
  "Periodic inspections of nuclear power programmes involving only power reactors can provide a significant degree of protection by providing international warning of possible wrongdoing. This is because it takes many months or years to obtain the plutonium separation capability to turn reactor fuel into a form usable for weapons awareness of a reliable advance warning system which would spot such activity serves as a deterrent to illicit bomb programmes. It is important here to appreciate that vital element of time: the object of international inspection is to frustrate the purpose of the diversion by ringing an alarm in time to alarm for counter-action by the international community. If sufficient time for effective response is not provided, safe guards' won't work.
  In other words, from the moment spent reactor fuel is translated into separated plutonium and stored"—
  something we intend to do when we export it—
  "the element of 'timely' warning, on which our present safeguards system has been relying, evaporates."

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  Mr. Gilinski also said, warning us:
  "So long as individual nations are permitted to keep nuclear explosive stockpiles"—
  as we are intending to allow nations if we export plutonium from the Wind-scale plant—
  "they are, in effect, in possession of an option to make nuclear weapons almost literally overnight."
  There is no possibility of having any inspectorate once we have taken the decision to export plutonium outside.
  What has Parker to say to all these admonitions? What has the Secretary of State for the Environment to say about them? Even though Parker desperately seeks to extrapolate some United States policy statements to justify his conclusions—the devil quoting scripture for his own purpose—he has, reluctantly but clearly, to accept that to export plutonium would be to thwart the United States' efforts to halt nuclear proliferation. In paragraph 6.23 of his report he states the position abundantly clearly. He says:
  "it appears to be clear that the building of THORP itself would not be counter to US policy so long as no plutonium produced by it was exported. So limited there would be no direct increase in proliferation risks."
  But it is not intended to be so limited. Ultimately, Parker has no alternative, as the hon. Member for Bridgwater said, but to challenge the whole basis of the carefully thought-through policy of the President.
  Parker gives the absurdly unconvincing response that we should expand our reprocessing plant and provide facilities and plutonium to others because otherwise other countries will go ahead and do it themselves. The argument was adopted by the Secretary of State for the Environment. That is an argument which has been heard in this House before. It was heard when the slave trade was being conducted, when it was said that if we did not do it, others would. That was the argument used to justify our involvement. It is being used now to justify our being involved in the exporting of plutonium.
  In this context the contention is both false and humbug. It is false because if it takes a country as sophisticated as we are in nuclear technology a decade to develop the reprocessing plant, how long would it take a novice country—
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  unless, of course, we collude, as already British Nuclear Fuels is colluding through a consortium, with Germany, to provide, as is the evident intention, to countries such as Brazil, which have not even signed a non-proliferation treaty, the nuclear know-how and enriched uranium that will eventually enable Brazil to achieve its declared goal of having its own plutonium processing plant?
  This contention is humbug because Parker is not genuinely concerned about proliferation. No one who reads paragraph 6.25 can doubt that he makes it abundantly clear, with a nationalist flourish, that he would sweep aside such concerns, which people like me have and which he would undoubtedly regard as namby-pamby. Parker believes that such concerns should be swept aside in the interests of needed absolute resources independence for this country.
  The House has learned much recently of the unself-conscious prejudices of too many of our judges. Parker's response to the internationalism of President Carter is replete with puny provincialism. He reacts to the hazards of the twenty first century, if we ever reach it, with all of the dated chauvinism of the nineteenth century. Then, to mitigate his bellicosity, he says that in any event we can diminish the dangers by spiking the plutonium we export—a method technically unproven, undoubtedly prohibitively costly, probably in breach of the Japanese contract and certainly involving total and varied redesigning of any nuclear reactor intended to receive the material.
  It is no wonder that even Parker, in the conclusion of his proliferation chapter, has to acknowledge that this
  "is a matter which I cannot assess. Its assessment is a matter for the Government and depends amongst other things on information on the reactions of other countries to the policy."
  It depends not only on the Government and other countries; it depends on this Parliament, on the people of this country and in particular on parents and the young people.
  If, without waiting for the international evaluation, we go ahead, we confirm to the world our role as nuclear hawks and destroy our credibility as a nation genuinely concerned to make the attempt to arrest nuclear proliferation. We also

  1571
  dissociate ourselves from the nuclear doves, from the United States, Holland, Canada. Instead, we shall be contributing, with a Germany hell-bent on making money out of the Brazilian atomic contract and with a France wishing to make money out of her Pakistan deal, to ensuring that the world will be awash with plutonium.
  I intend to use emotive language, language which, apparently, some people are diffident about using over such an issue. I believe that some of the atomic salesmen are like pimps peddling a diseased harlotry, eager for profits, ready to put into world circulation cancer and death—
  Mr. J. W. Rooker: Claptrap.
  Mr. Abse: I will not follow prim Mr. Parker who so bitterly complained that even words such as "the plutonium economy"—words coined by the distinguished and responsible Royal Commission—should not be used. Mr. Justice Parker suggests that they are too emotive. Cool language and a determined strangulation of effect will not in reality distance us from the awesome consequences of allowing, through the development of the civil nuclear industry, plutonium to fall into the hands of the Amins, the Gadaffis, the PLO and the Red Guards.
  I commend the Daily Mirror when it draws to our attention the potential dangers that exist even in Japan. I am well aware, as anyone is who is perceptive and has visited Japan, that not all the Japanese are committed to the pacifist stance that they sometimes publicly present. There are dangerous elements within Japanese society that have never forgotten Hiroshima. They react to it not with pacifism but with ill-feeling towards the West, which they believe was responsible for the catastrophe.
  We are about to adjourn for Easter. I look back to my forebears in Palestine 2,000 years ago, to Jews like Jesus and Paul. They were preaching to a world that received its message and continued with its message, largely because it believed that it was a world in which Doomsday was coming. It felt that the end of the world was coming. I recall, too, that in the year 1000 all Europe was in a frenzy, fearing that that was to be the fateful year.
  1572
  Those superstitions and beliefs proved to be ill-founded. The world did not end. It did not end in the first century or during the year 1000, but could any of us have the same sense of confidence about the year 2000 if we had plutonium all around the world, which could be translated into horrific atomic bombs in a matter of hours? Can any of us feel convinced that we have a future?
  I am a man of 60 years of age. It is time for all people of my age to contemplate death. That must come to us all. However, for the first time in human history man has to contemplate the possibility of the destruction of the human species. It is the first time that man has had that capacity. I do not say that we alone as a nation can prevent that catastrophe. However, I do know that we can make a contribution towards its prevention.
  I deplore the fact that Britain has far from co-operated with the initiative that has come from President Carter. I deplore the cynicism that suggests that the President is motivated because the United States has large uranium supplies. Because we are not doing too badly for energy supplies ourselves, we should, without difficulty, respond wholeheartedly to President Carter's initiative. The fact is that when each hon. Member takes a decision at the end of these debates he will be taking on the most awesome responsibility to befall any Member of Parliament in the history of the House of Commons.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: I begin by declaring an interest. I am associated with a company that produces graphite that is used in moderators in nuclear power plants.
  I do not believe that the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) has added much to the debate on this difficult problem. The hon. Gentleman is someone to whom I enjoy listening, but the immoderate language that he used in some parts of his speech did nothing to help us understand this difficult matter. In this debate and in all debates on nuclear energy we must try to separate fact from fiction, and justified and necessary concern from statements that create unjustifiable fear and nervousness in the minds of those who do not understand the intricacies of the problem.

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  There is so much jargon that it is easy to frighten old ladies and others in my constituency and in other constituencies when giving them the facts. I want to see nuclear reprocessing and nuclear power set in the context of being an essential and integral component of an energy equation which we in the developed world have to solve if we are to give prosperity, and, I hope, peace, to our own citizens and to those of other countries.
  I agree that energy forecasting has proved fallible in detail, but over the past 20 years forecasters have shown themselves fairly accurate in their forecasts of the total demand for energy. Therefore, we can say with some degree of certainty in respect of our oil and gas resources, those under our own hand on the Continental Shelf, that they will tend to peak out during the 1980s and early 1990s, and that the alternative sources to which the Secretary of State referred—solar, wind, wave, tidal and geothermal—will not be able to make any significant contribution to our energy needs until well towards the end of the 1990s. If we look even further ahead towards fusion, we are looking well into the middle of the next century.
  Coal is plentiful in Britain, and some argue that we do not need nuclear power. They contend that the coal industry is able to bear the whole strain. It is true that there are large resources, but we have to face the rising cost of production and, perhaps, eventually the difficulty of recruiting miners to do what is becoming, quite rightly, a much less attractive job.
  If we are to have a flexible and sensible energy policy, the nuclear power element is essential. The cost per kilowatt hour of the stations commissioned by the CEGB over the past 12 years demonstrate that on average nuclear power comes out far cheaper than coal or oil. As most of us already know, nuclear power is producing just under 20 per cent. of our present requirements. However, very soon when the new stations come on stream the production from nuclear power will be well over 20 per cent.
  We are talking not about a novel gimmick but about an established form of power that has been serving the nation
  1574
  excellently for 25 years. We have noted with satisfaction that it is a form of power that has proved itself to be thoroughly safe. There have been far fewer accidents in the nuclear power industry than in many other forms of generation.
  It is right that we should be concerned about the real problems and health hazards to which reference has been made. However, as recently as last year the Soviet deputy Minister of Health wrote in Pravda as follows:
  "Nuclear power stations have considerable advantages over thermal stations from a health point of view.
  Nuclear power stations do not consume oxygen and do not pollute the atmosphere with sulphurous compounds…
  As for the disposal of radioactive waste, this was comparable with the discharge of thermal power stations, since organic fuel contains natural radioactive admixtures."
  I am making the point that no form of power is without its health hazards. It may be safely said that every time we try to kill a fly with an aerosol or fill up our soda water siphon with a CO2 bottle we are adding to the layer of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. In that way we may ultimately be doing ourselves far more harm than that which may be caused by radiation from our power stations.
  A nuclear generation programme without nuclear reprocessing facilities is like owning a car without having access to a filling station or a garage. The fact is that we need the reprocessing facility for our programme. We need it if we are to carry out our programme successfully. Our spent fuel has to be reprocessed somewhere, or stored. If we have the Windscale facilities, which is the case, they should be built upon and expanded.
  Secondly, we already have an excellent enrichment programme at Capenhurst. Therefore, we are again talking about something that already exists. However, we are concerned about how big the facilities should be.
  As has been pointed out on a number of occasions, if we can get the cost benefits of scale that the expanded Windscale plant can give us, we can not only make money from overseas orders but reprocess our own spent fuels more cheaply and so in turn give a greater service to the customers who use electricity.
  Much play has been made about the attitude of the American Administration to

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  nuclear reprocessing. President Carter's attitude has been variously described in the debate. The fact is that, as the Foreign Secretary will no doubt point out tonight, there is nothing in what President Carter has said that suggests that those who have reprocessing facilities should not continue with them. Indeed, he has clearly said:
  "They have a perfect right to go ahead and continue with their reprocessing efforts."
  He said that in April last year, when he was outlining his nuclear programme. Therefore, the idea that has been put about that this runs contrary to American policy is absolute rubbish.
  Mr. Penhaligon: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that when President Carter said that, he was keen on countries other than his own building more reprocessing plants?
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: President Carter has made it clear that he does not want new reprocessing plants in countries that do not already have them. He has said absolutely nothing about curtailing the activities of countries that do enjoy them. Indeed, we must make clear, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), that the United States has colossal resources of uranium. Like all precious commodities in the world, uranium is a finite commodity. For the United States, talking in these terms, the problem is quite different from that which faces us. Anyhow, the United States Administration has not in any way suggested that we should not continue with our reprocessing efforts.
  Another worry which has been canvassed concerns plutonium. It is suggested that terrorists and others can get into the act by blackmailing the world, but to try to make explosive devices out of reactor grade material is not only highly dangerous for the constructor; it is almost certain to be thoroughly unreliable for the user. Terrorists already have the ability to obtain all the normal forms of explosive that they require. Therefore, I cannot believe that they will set out to construct weapons using plutonium, which is unsuitable for the purpose. After all, there is plenty of military-grade nuclear material available which could presumably be hijacked by a terrorist group. I do not regard that as a serious threat.
  1576
  However, I recognise that the proliferation of nuclear weapons world-wide should be discouraged.
  Nothing in the argument of the antiWindscale lobby leads me to believe that if we prevented this expansion going ahead, or even if we were prepared to stop the whole of our nuclear programme dead in its tracks, it would have the slightest effect on the determination of those in the Communist world, the Brazilians, or whoever, to get this kind of power under their control. I do not think that the argument that if we stop, the world will stop is valid. We live in a world in which nuclear power exists. It is doing a first-class job—in my estimation, at any rate—and we are bound to see it expand.
  Finally, there is the question of the storage of waste. I was very interested in what the Secretary of State said about vitrification. Obviously, that is the longterm answer. Even using the double-skin stainless steel tanks that have been in operation for 25 to 30 years, we have had no accidents. That is a matter not for self-congratulation, but of record. There is always a first time. However, if we can move to a safer form of storage, using the glass technique, we shall be taking that element of danger further out of the problem. I very much hope that that possibility will be further explored.
  Nuclear power at all levels has shown itself to be a thoroughly useful, safe and valuable addition to our economic life. If we in Parliament were to stop or to hinder the expansion of an essential part of that programme, namely, the reprocessing element, by any decision taken tonight, we should do great damage not only to this industry, which has served us so well, but to ourselves.
  The future is clouded with doubt, but let us hope that we live in a world of expanding opportunity—a world in which more energy and material goods will be required by many. Nuclear power can make its contribution in that world. I believe that it is up to us to give it every encouragement.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Many of those who wish to take part in the debate will perhaps be fairly new to this subject. I am not complaining about that. My memory of the subject

  1577
  goes back about 10 years, when the Select Committee on Science and Technology first started to look at nuclear matters generally. That Select Committee, in that Parliament, recommended that an independent State-owned nuclear fuel company should be set up. The recommendation was adopted by the then Labour Government.
  My right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Energy appeared before the Select Committee and gave quite a lot of evidence on nuclear matters. I think that, in retrospect, it is worth quoting what he said on that occasion, because a member of the Select Committee at that time was my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who is to reply to the debate this evening. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, who, under another ministerial guise, was then responsible for nuclear matters, as he is now, referring to the proposed fuel company, said that it
  "will itself probably earn over the years very substantial sums, it may well be more money than can be acquired from the sale of reactors. I cannot be sure which way it will go, but I think just as tobacco manufacturers make more money than pipe manufacturers"—
  I recall this part of the evidence, which was rather dramatic, because my right hon. Friend produced his pipe from his pocket to emphasise the point—
  "probably there will be a very great export market in nuclear fuel."
  That was nearly 10 years ago. When examined more closely on this matter, my right hon. Friend added:
  "What I am saying is the commercial function of the nuclear fuel company in selling fuel, services and reprocessing over the years is going to be very big business indeed".
  So there is nothing new about this. It is interesting to reflect that, whatever doubts there were in the past about the fast-breeder reactor—I share some of those doubts—and about the use in this country in the future of the pressurised water reactor, nuclear fuel and reprocessing hardly ever came under attack. Mr. Justice Parker refers in his report to this change of attitude by the Friends of the Earth. It contains a telling quotation from Dr. Patterson's book, published in 1976, which almost praised the benign effect of reprocessing. He later repudiated that view.
  Very little was said by the critics of nuclear energy against reprocessing until
  1578
  fairly recently. Much of the opposition started when one of the newspapers—I think it was the Daily Mirror—referred to the possible winning of the Japanese contracts and the bringing here of Japanese spent fuel as turning this country into a nuclear dustbin. That was the start of the recent strong agitation against Windscale, both as it stands and in its proposed expanded form.
  Mr. Hooley: I feel that the major public disquiet arose from the authoritative document produced by the Royal Commission. Certainly my mind was more influenced by that document than by anything that I have read before or since.
  Mr. Palmer: Yes, but as I said in our last debate in December, that report is a great quarry of information and opinion, some of it contradictory. The chairman of the inquiry was Sir Brian Flowers, who is a distinguished member of the Royal Society. He has said several times in public that he favours going ahead with an experimental commercial fast-breeder reactor, quite apart from the issue of reprocessing, on which he did not pronounce judgment. However, I agree with my hon. Friend that the Flowers Report has been an element in the general controversy.
  I am by training and practice an engineer. I try to avoid technical arrogance and I therefore say this with some diffidence and humility. I do have genuine difficulty in understanding why the treatment of spent nuclear fuel in order to extract from it all the useful uranium is different from many other dangerous activities carried on in factories and manufacturing plants in advanced industrial countries. I know that this commodity is radioactive, but radioactivity is not unknown in nature. The point is that it can be fully controlled in the artificial setting because the technical means to do that are available to those who know their business. Whatever else can be said against British Nuclear Fuels Ltd, no one can suggest that it does not know its business technically.
  Let us consider the attitudes of the unions in this matter. Two days ago a very valuable document was published by the power engineers' union: I commend it to all hon. Members who collect this kind of thing as a useful addition to their libraries. It deals with some

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  implications of radioactive waste from nuclear power generation in the United Kingdom up to the year 2000. It is a detailed study by those who are deeply and daily concerned with the design and operation of nuclear power plants.
  The Electrical Power Engineers Association—I declare my interest in it—is the technical staff union but its view does not differ from the views of the other unions in the electricity supply industry. Those who work in the industry, who know these plants and are closest to any dangers that may exist, wish expansion to proceed.
  But I wish to be moderate, for it is the fashion. Fears have been aroused, and I agree with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—I was glad that he said it—that it is important that all public doubts and reservations, even those of the oldest inhabitants of, say Bournemouth, should be met and explored in public discussion and debate. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy has assisted in this process, certainly by his Church House conference. But we must accept—there has been some misunderstanding on this—that in March 1976 the Cabinet decided in favour of going ahead with the negotiation of the Japanese contracts. There has been a tendency for many who have come into this controversy more recently to overlook that key fact. The impression has got about that the Government have been waiting for the House of Commons to decide. Perhaps they should have done, but the Cabinet made its decision, I think quite rightly.
  Today's debate is not related directly to the March 1976 decision. It is not a formal challenge to it. It arises because of a separate consideration—the independent decision of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that an extension of this magnitude is too great to be left to the say-so of a local planning authority. In that matter I agree with him. It was important to have a national planning inquiry, and Mr. Justice Parker was appointed to that end.
  Mr. Justice Parker was obviously competent to judge evidence, and was well advised by those who are expert in these matters. Here I agree with Bertrand Russell, who wrote somewhere that
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  although experts could be wrong, those who studied a subject and had experience in it were more likely to be right than those who had not studied it and did not have experience. That is a rational judgment on the value of experts by a great rationalist.
  If the substantial conclusion of Mr. Justice Parker that outline planning permission for the extension should be granted without delay is not acceptable or palatable to some, it is because the facts are not on their side. Perhaps the conjectures on the possibilities of danger that might arise in the future are on their side, but not the facts as currently known. I have never had any doubts about the facts and I am certainly relieved for the industrial future of this country, of which the nuclear industry is a very important component that will grow in importance, that Mr. Justice Parker has understood these facts so well.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) made a remarkable contribution to the debate we had in December, but I wish that he would not refer all the time, as he did again today, to a sinister nuclear lobby. Nearly all the organisations that are involved—I say this as a Socialist—are very good examples of public enterprise. British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. is a completely State-owned company. The Atomic Energy Authority is a State concern and the Central Electricity Generating Board is nationalised, too. They may be wrong, but to describe as a kind of evil nuclear conspiracy the devoted scientists, engineers and technical staff who, faithfully, in the service of their country, carry through and defend the work that has been given to them, is unfair.
  I shall, therefore, take out of the Parker Report four outstanding points and summarise them briefly. Although the alternative sources should make a very greatly increased contribution to our energy resources once the fossil fuels are gone, they cannot entirely fill the gap once the oil runs out, followed by coal. It may be said that with more research we could make the alternative sources go further. That remains to be seen. We should certainly develop them, including the Severn barrage scheme. I am much in favour of doing that. But to suggest that alternative sources of energy can fill the gap left when fossil fuels run out is incorrect.

  1581
  It cannot be done on any present calculations.
  Also, I agree that while total power and conservation schemes need very much to be developed—they can make another increased contribution—the gap will still yawn if it is not filled by nuclear energy.
  If reprocessing is not expanded at Windscale in step with increased numbers of advanced gas-cooled reactors which will be coming on the line very soon and those that are projected, the spent fuel will build up in the ponds at the power stations—and, of course, at Windscale—until they can take no more. On balance one has greater control over the spent fuel through reprocessing than if one leaves it naked in the ponds.
  Finally, I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is back with us again. I referred to him when he was away as a member of the Select Committee on Science and Technology, when we first looked at these questions of reprocessing. I am glad that he is replying tonight.
  I made the point when I opened my remarks that to obtain foreign contracts was always the purpose of British Nuclear Fuels Limited. That was one of the reasons why it was set up. Evidence in favour was submitted by Ministers to the Select Committee at that time. So one must not blame BNFL for being successful in its own business as given to it by Parliament.
  However, that apart, the United Kingdom has a moral obligation—many of us in favour of nuclear power feel as strongly about moral questions as those who are opposed to nuclear power—to take on this work as a contribution to non-proliferation. If we do not, the non-nuclear States will have every reason to do their own processing. Then, instead of plutonium being concentrated and controllable it will be widely spread and less controllable.
  Mr. Justice Parker, in his able, good, penetrating and generally fair report, made all these points. I therefore supports its conclusions and hope that when the time comes to vote, whether it is tonight or after the Easter break, the House will give Mr. Justice Parker and the Government its support.
  6.44 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Page: I very much appreciate your calling me in this debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, especially as Windscale is only about 10 miles down the road from my constituency. There is a natural concern and worry in Cumbria about the proposed expansion, particularly on the West Coast, which is so near it and which also has a big unemployment problem. The situation there is a little clouded, and I feel that it is my duty to make sure that I am satisfied about the safety aspects before I even consider whether this will reduce the unemployment problem.
  I endorse the complimentary remarks that have been made about Mr. Justice Parker for bringing this report before Parliament, and it is easy to see why the inquiry took 100 days. Reading the report, I can see that Mr. Justice Parker and his assessors must have worked extremely diligently to present it to the House within nine months from beginning to end, and to present it in such a form that it is understandable and not cluttered up with technical jargon and figures.
  I also thank the Secretary of State for the Environment for manipulating the procedures of Parliament so that we could have the debate. I believe that the result of the eventual decision—which I believe will be in the affirmative—will contradict his remarks that it will not ultimately and inevitably commit us not only to a nuclear programme but a fast-breeder society. I believe that this will become inevitable.
  If that is so, I wonder whether five or six hours of debate, welcome though the debate is, will be sufficient to launch a vast programme of expenditure that will cost not simply hundreds of millions of pounds but thousands of millions, and which will continue year by year.
  Before dealing with points of definite constituency interest, I should like to mention two points on which I have neither the expertise nor the time to hazard an answer. For this we must put our trust in experts. The first question is whether the plant will be able to operate profitably on the figures presented. Secondly, will it be able to operate effectively as a process?
  Various figures have been produced to show that this is the most economical and

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  profitable way, but in my very short time in the House I have developed a healthy scepticism for official and Government forecasts. They have a depressing habit of being wrong. It would not surprise me if in five or 10 years' time we had what I call a parliamentary stable door debate, the Windscale reprocessing horse having galloped into the pastures, nurtured by public money to join one or two other beasts, such as those from British Steel and British Leyland. One could spend the rest of the debate in that vein, and in doing so I am not distinguishing between private and public concerns; I am talking of the principle that the House tends to debate things after they have happened and does not exert its influence before they happen. That is where the House is failing in its duty to the country today. But that is another issue.
  I come to my second point. Will the process in fact work? It is simply a matter of scale. Will this 1-in-5,000 model work when it is scaled up? Like the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), I have been trained as an engineer and I know of many an engineer who has in the past come dramatically to grief when his very accurate working model has not performed as expected when scaled up into full operation. We do not have the research facilities to check these matters, and we must leave this judgment—at a hazard—to the experts and remain with our natural reservations.
  I am grateful to the inquiry, because it has chased away from the local scene the local worries—what I call the little local bogymen. Mr. Justice Parker presented his answers in understandable, day-to-day terms. I think that the House can appreciate that anybody who is ignorant of the facts—and, indeed, the nuclear question is highly technical—will naturally suppose the worst. It is natural to have doubts, worries and concerns about the environmental effect upon one's health.
  As such, I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) for drawing attention to the blistered fish. There is a beautiful story going around that one should not have fish from the Irish Sea because they have blisters on them as a result of radiation. As the report says, this viral infection
  1584
  has been recorded in the Irish Sea since 1904.
  From the report, and not being an expert. I can say with absolute confidence that if one sat in the mud at Raven-glass, for 24 hours a day every day, drank 10,000 litres of water and ate 30 tons of potatoes and 50 lbs of scallops every day, one would still be within the radiological limits, and anyone who can do that deserves a medal.
  I am considering the matter purely from a constituency point of view because my constituents and I have to live there. It is all right to have abstract debates, but I wonder how many hon. Members have walked around Windscale and can talk about it with confidence. Perhaps those hon. Members who have done so would care to raise their hands. We could have an instant vote—but I suppose that that would be too modern.
  There are four points of concern touched on by both Front Bench speakers—first, the accident risk; secondly, security; thirdly, the high-active waste; and, fourthly, the low-grade waste, and I am most concerned about the low-grade waste.
  Great play has been made of the dangers of moving spent and reprocessed fuel to and from the plant. It is a natural constituency worry, but, having visited the plant and a plant that makes the containers, I was very impressed by the meticulous engineering and the care that went into their manufacture. I have no fears that the type of accidents that have been suggested would, if they occurred, bring about any form of leakage. Therefore, I agree with the report's finding that it is extremely unlikely that there would be any form of accident or hazard of this kind.
  Because of rumours in the constituency, I am also pleased to see from paragraph 11.2 that there is no chance of a nuclear explosion at the plant, either accidentally or through a safety failure.
  The security of the plant is hard to assess, because there is a natural reluctance to talk about it and when I visited the plant, the people there were very reluctant to discuss it with me. If they adopt that attitude, with an independent monitoring of the security arrangements, I believe that this is a matter that we can leave with safety, adopting the report's

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  recommendations in paragraph 17.8 which I believe brings about a natural solution.
  This leads on to the question of terrorist attack during reprocessing and the transfer of the fuel from one place to another. I believe that the suggested irradiating of the rods will present an almost impossible technical problem to any terrorist or hijacker if he is successful in obtaining any of the rods.
  There has been much talk about proliferation. I do not intend to become involved in that argument, but I believe in the old saying "Where there's a will, there's a way". If any nation wants to obtain nuclear power or a nuclear deterrent, it will eventually do so if it puts its mind to it, undesirable as that may be, no matter what treaties are signed and what obstructions are put in its way. Unless we stop the nuclear programme throughout the world, we shall inevitably see the proliferation of nuclear sources.
  Turning to the high-active waste to be dealt with on site in the silos which, when it has been sufficiently deactivated and has lost most of its heat, will then be vitrified; there is a body of opinion that the time in the silos is going to be longer than has been expected. It is no good putting the waste into the glass while it is still too hot, because the heat will build up and there will be pitting inside the glass, resulting in the spread of this highly active waste. If that waste has to be kept in the silos longer than expected we shall need more cooling silos for a longer time if the plant is to operate at full capacity.
  I regard the low-grade waste as one of the most important matters, because it is a bigger unknown. The other matters are really mechanical. If we are not happy with the security, we can double the guards. If we are worried about a container bursting on impact if it falls from a lorry or a train, we can double the thickness of the metal. But with the low-grade waste we have the problem of assessing the effect on the environment. We must make a balanced judgment on whether the ICRP limits are correct and safe. All hon. Members have been bombarded with figures, some saying that the limits are safe and some that they are unsafe.
  1586
  British Nuclear Fuels operates not only well within the existing levels but, according to the report, aims to create an operating level that will reduce the risk to members of the public to less than they would experience if they were living in Aberdeen—not that I want to bring about a mass exodus from Aberdeen.
  In its recommendations for specific discharge limits of significant radionucleides the report makes the important point that that was a matter on which the plant has fallen down in the past. Even though we bring the initial levels below these limits. we must go further in continuously monitoring all discharges and a continual evaluation and checking of the ICRP limits. I owe it to my constituents to see that it is a continuing monitoring process which must be done by an independent body to ensure complete impartiality. We must ensure that the critical pathways to man are covered and monitored and that no one in Cumbria is put at risk. I do not want to see a slow build-up of this type of radioactivity leaving us with a long-term health or genetic problem.
  In this the report has exposed a flaw which I think will be checked in time under the proposed monitoring system. But if the report's recommendations are implemented, especially those on monitoring, I shall be happy to support the application. If they are implemented, indeed, the operation of the plant will be safer.
  6.58 p.m.
  Mr. Robin F. Cook: I begin by adding my tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It is now 18 months since I and my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) and Mitcham and Morden (Mr. Douglas-Mann) went to see my right hon. Friend to urge him to call in the application. I do not suggest that he infringed the planning legislation when I say that he met us before the application had even been made. We are very grateful that he took the course that he eventually did. We know how hard he had to fight to obtain agreement.
  We should also congratulate my right hon. Friend on having found a device—I am not sure that "manipulation" is the best way of expressing it—whereby we can debate the issue. He deserves the thanks

  1587
  of the House for having sat here throughout the debate so far. It is the only time that I can recall when there have been two Cabinet Ministers on the Front Bench at the dinner hour.
  Having said that, I must add that my right hon. Friend has perhaps led the House into some difficulty by the extreme speed with which he has been able to arrange a debate on the matter. The haste with which we have had a debate on the Parker Report contrasts curiously with the fact that we still have not had a debate in Government time on the Flowers Report. That is all the more odd as the Flowers Commission at least recognised that there were questions requiring a political judgment, whereas Mr. Justice Parker is prepared confidently to wade in and use his own judgment without leaving the matter to the discretion of the political representatives.
  I think that this haste is rather unfortunate, too, because it is now becoming evident that some of the witnesses who are quoted in the report rather resent the way in which they have been quoted. I should like to refer in particular to the case of Mr. Peter Taylor. He is a gentleman whom I have known for the past 18 months. As those who have met him will, I am sure, agree, he is by no means an extremist. He is a very mild mannered scientist, working at Oxford where he is a member of the political ecology research group. He attended two-thirds of the hearings at Windscale, in the course of which he made a very comprehensive and formidable case for rejecting the application.
  There are only two references to Mr. Peter Taylor in the report. The first is in paragraph 10.37. In that paragraph Mr. Justice Parker dismisses the submission that BNFL would be unable to build to the standard which it itself is putting forward in the design. He says there:
  "I share the confidence expressed by Mr. Taylor on behalf of PERG that their designer Mr. Warner"—
  the BNFL designer—
  "could design to meet any standard which was set."
  It should be made plain to the House that what Mr. Taylor was doing when he expressed that sentiment was criticising the low standards that he believed BNFL was setting and, in particular, the
  1588
  high rate of discharges that it was setting for the reprocessing plant—rates much higher than the rates of discharge in the proposed German reprocessing plant. What Mr. Taylor actually said was that since it was obvious that BNFL had the expertise to design to a higher standard. he could not understand why it had not designed to that higher standard. That is a different thing from what he appears to be saying in paragraph 10.37.
  However one might argue about that. there can be no disagreement about what happens in paragraph 8.46. In that paragraph Mr. Peter Taylor is quoted as saying that
  "an expansion of nuclear power was the only way of maintaining a growth economy".
  What he in fact said was that he believed that the German nuclear development was the only way in which the Germans could meet their own proposed industrial demand. He did not make any general statement about growth economy, and when asked to do so he explicity said that he was not an economist.
  It is perhaps appropriate to read into the record an exchange that occurred on Day 90 of the hearings, in which Mr. Justice Parker himself intervened during the cross-examination of Mr. Taylor and said to, I think, the advocate for BNFL:
  "Dr. Little, you cannot really open up the whole economic problem with this witness. He has not spoken to it. You asked him a question; he gave you a short answer to it, but he does not purport to be an economist."
  Yet it is precisely that witness whom Mr. Justice Parker cites in support of his contention that the nuclear industry is essential to the growth of the economy.
  It is perhaps unfortunate that because of the haste we have been unable to get the reaction of many of the witnesses who are Americans. During the last fortnight there has barely been time for the report to reach the United States and for responses to be mailed back from the United States. However, I noted that in the Observer of last Sunday, Dr. Tom Cochrane is quoted as saying:
  "I am writing to Mr. Shore to express my shock and dismay at the way in which the judge misrepresented my testimony to support his own findings."
  I do not know whether the Department of the Environment has yet received that letter from Dr. Cochrane, but, again, it would be unfortunate if we were to be

  1589
  rushed into a decision before we had the opportunity to have replies from the many United States witnesses who took part in the inquiry.
  But even if we are unable to have their responses, we are at least aware of one quotation from an American source which I do not think could pretend to be representative of that source. About eight or nine months ago the Ford Foundation produced a major report on nuclear power. Most hon. Members who are taking part in this debate will be aware that it is 400 pages long and contains an entire chapter on reprocessing. At the end of that chapter, it comes down firmly against reprocessing, on the grounds that it is disadvantageous economically, unnecessary for waste management and not necessary in the fuel cycle.
  Mr. Justice Parker makes one reference to that volume. From those 400 pages, what does he take? It is not any comment from the nuclear industry, and not any part of the conclusion on reprocessing; it is a quotation about the hazards of the coal industry.
  We are all practising politicians. We are all familar with how telling the judicious choice of quotations can be. But I am hound to say that during the last week it has begun to appear as though Mr. Justice Parker's skill in the selection of quotations puts us all to shame.
  Having made those introductory remarks, perhaps I could turn to the three issues that the Secretary of State outlined to the House in his opening speech and take them one by one. First, there is the issue of environmental pollution, to which the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Page) referred at some length.
  I do not dispute for one moment that BNFL's designs will be within the ICRP limits. I do not dispute that BNFL can design well within those limits. But the question is really not whether the pollution will be within the ICRP limits. The real issue of contention is why those discharges, for which the plant is being designed, should be so much higher than the proposed controls that are being discussed in America and in Germany.
  The differences are dramatic. The standards laid down by the Environmental Protection Agency in America,
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  which will be in force from January 1979, suggest that the discharge rate from a reprocessing plant should be 15 millicuries per year. That is one of the reasons why their three reprocessing plants are not in operation—two of them have no hope of meeting that standard. The discharge rate for which the Wind-scale plant, the THORP plant, is being designed is 6 million millicuries per year. That is a difference of six orders of magnitude.
  If we turn to the German standard, we find that it is one curie per annum for all discharges—much larger than the American standard. It is still several hundredfold less than the discharge rate for which the THORP plant is being designed.
  This is not new information. I made similar points in the course of the debate on 2nd December. In reply to that debate, the Secretary of State for Energy did not reply to that particular issue. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment did not refer to it in his introductory speech today, and I shall not be terribly surprised if the Foreign Secretary does not refer to it in his reply this evening.
  After all, they all have reasonable grounds for side-stepping the issues. It is one of those curious quirks of interdepartmental responsibility that the responsibility does not rest with them but rests with, of all people, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
  It may be that they are quite correct to ignore this issue. It may be that there is no reason for concern that our standards are a thousand-fold lower than those of the Americans, or hundreds-of-fold lower than the German standard. It may be that these nations are unduly namby-pamby and squeamish in their attitude to environmental issues. It may be that they lack the robust common sense of the British nuclear industry. But it is one of the reasons that makes me approach the application for THORP with grave doubts and reservations, which are not removed in any way by the Parker Report, which does not touch on these comparisons in any way.
  Secondly, I turn to the issue of civil liberties, which my right hon. Friend identified as the second major area of concern. Far from finding myself obtaining no comfort from the report under this

  1591
  heading, I must say that when I read the chapter on civil liberties I was left with grave alarm. It is perhaps appropriate to remind the House of the conclusion that was offered by the Flowers Commission:
  "The unquantifiable effects of the security measures that might become necessary in a plutonium economy should be a major consideration in decisions on substantial nuclear development. Security issues require wide public debate."
  There can be no doubt—I do not imagine that any hon. Member would deny it—that this is a substantial nuclear development, whatever view we may take about it. Yet one can only say that the treatment of the civil liberties aspect in the report is perfunctory. Indeed, the greater part of the discussion is to say that there cannot be a wide public debate because of security considerations. This is not because Mr. Justice Parker rejected the fears expressed by the Flowers Commission. On the contrary, he is abjectly fatalistic about the erosion of civil liberties. What does he say about the erosion of civil liberties? He says:
  "I can see no solution at all. If the sort of activities under consideration are to be checked, innocent people are certain to be subjected to surveillance, if only to find out whether they are innocent or not."
  What a remarkable assertion. We are accepting that it is perfectly legitimate to carry out surveillance of innocent people, not—mark you—to find out whether they are guilty, but to find out whether they are innocent; and this in the course of a discussion about a definition of subversion which is any case so wide that it includes people who are not necessarily guilty it includes people who are not guilty of any violent intent or any illegal activity, but merely people who may be suspected of subversion or may be liable to subversion.
  I can only say that I came away from the chapter on civil liberties with grave concern. Any doubt I had that nuclear development posed a substantial threat to civil liberties was removed by that chapter, which confirmed that it did. And there is a solution to the problem—it was pointed out by the Flowers Commission—which is not to proceed with any development until we are absolutely convinced that there is no reasonable alternative and that the development is absolutely necessary.
  1592
  I want to move on to the major issue which is of obvious concern.
  Mr. Shore: Is my hon. Friend suggesting that the Flowers Commission recommendation—that we should not go forward with major nuclear development without a most exacting examination of the problems of security—was referring to the THORP application?
  Mr. Cook: No.
  Mr. Shore: Therefore, that recommendation does not relate to the matter that we are now discussing.
  Mr. Cook: I would not wish to leave that impression. The Flowers Commission leaves us in a delicious ambivalence as to the THORP application, because one can find no guidance as to whether it should proceed or not. The Commission specifically said that since this was a matter for separate inquiry it would not give any advice. But the Commission plainly states that the security aspect should have a major weight in any decision about a substantial nuclear development. Quite clearly that is what we are discussing tonight.
  I turn to the issue of proliferation which, I believe, will carry most weight with the House when it comes to its decision. It is right that it should do so. Mr. Justice Parker advances three arguments why this development would not necessarily prove a proliferation hazard. First, he relies on the suggestion that the plutonium could be returned in the form of irradiated fuel rods—the procedure known as spiking.
  It is very difficult to give that recommendation any great weight. First, there is no provision in the contract that the plutonium be spiked in that way. Nor is there the slightest reason to believe that the Japanese would be willing to accept that it be written into the contract. On the contrary, a number of noises have been made in Washington suggesting that the Japanese would not be prepared to accept that. It is symptomatic of the whole issue that this matter was raised with the Japanese by the American Government before it was raised with them by the British Government.
  Even if the contract included the suggestion that we should turn the plutonium into fuel rods, we would have to build a

  1593
  fabrication plant to do that. We would have to construct a plant which was designed to the specifications of Japanese reactors, which we do not necessarily know. Nor would the Japanese be particularly willing to tell us the specifications. In addition, in order to irradiate fuel rods, we would need to place them in a reactor. That reactor would need to be the same as the reactor to which the rods would go in Japan—a light water reactor. We do not have such a reactor in Britain at present. However, we could agree to construct a light water reactor. That raises a number of questions; first, whether we would wish to build such a reactor secondly, whether we would give it planning permission; thirdly, the very serious issue of costs. It is difficult to conclude that one could agree to all those processes without adding to the costs of the procedure several fold.
  We have been told several times that this is not a debate on costs nor a debate on economic advantages. We have been told that if such a process were necessary or desirable, the money would be found. If that were the case, would there be advantages in spiking the plutonium before we returned it? We have before us the evidence supplied in the Nye letter, which was sent to the Foreign Secretary only two months ago. That letter stated that irradiation would prove no obstacle to any threshold country in obtaining the plutonium. There is also the conclusion of the recent report of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in America, that spiking
  "would not be useful at all in restraint of national proliferation".
  In other words, even if we went through with the process—with all the additional requirements and costs—it would not stop the Japanese—if they wished—from getting at the plutonium. Therefore, the first leg of Mr. Justice Parker's argument falls to the ground.
  The second leg is founded on a strict and legalistic interpretation of the nonproliferation treaty. Mr. Justice Parker came to the conclusion that the nonproliferation treaty lays upon us the obligation to carry out reprocessing services for non-nuclear weapon countries which seek those services from us.
  It is a very odd reading indeed of the non-proliferation treaty to come to the
  1594
  conclusion that we are obliged to facilitate the transfer of the technology or material which would be necessary to build a nuclear weapon. It is a paradoxical interpretation of the treaty which sets out to help that very development. Not only is it paradoxical, but it cannot possibly be the interpretation placed upon it by the Government. The Government have played an active part in the setting up of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. In fact, they played so active a part that at one time it was known as the "London Group". The whole point of the group was to restrict the transfer of sensitive nuclear technology. Does my right hon. Friend accept the interpretation of the non-proliferation treaty which is offered in chapter 6 of the Parker Report? Does he accept that there is an absolute obligation upon us to provide reprocessing services to third countries? If so, what about the activity of the Nuclear Suppliers Group?
  The whole point of the NSG regime is that it would provide a timely warning of any country seeking to develop a nuclear weapon. But if we give them the plutonium in such large quantities as envisaged in the Japanese contract, there is no way in which we shall get that timely warning in order to bring diplomatic pressure to bear, or to stimulate domestic political debate in order to reverse the decision. There is no way in which that can be achieved. That is the whole point of the regime which the Nuclear Suppliers Group is attempting to set up.
  Mr. Justice Parker bases the third leg of his argument on United States approvals of shipments on a case-by-case basis and on the suggestion that the United States therefore recognises the case for such a facility. I noted in yesterday's Guardian that BNFL has similarly claimed that the most recent approval of shipments is a vindication of the Parker Report. I also noticed that in today's Guardian the United States State Department has rushed in denying that interpretation of the approvals for shipments, and pointing out that the approvals were issued before the Parker Report was published.
  I can understand BNFL seeking to put the best gloss on this problem. It has a clear interest, and if any hon. Member fails to make adequate allowance for it,

  1595
  he has only himself to blame. But Mr. justice Parker cannot plead the same excuse. At the time he penned his report he was in possession of the Nye letter which explicitly says that the United States does not support the development of reprocessing plants by nuclear weapon states. If we are in any doubt whatever about United States policy in this matter, we have since had the letter from Senator Glenn to President Carter, dated 8th March, in which the Senator, chairman of the appropriate Senate sub-committee, states that
  "To grant reprocessing approvals for fuel of US origin on a scale necessary for keeping the enterprise alive"—
  he refers to Windscale and La Hague—
  "would be to make a mockery of our policy".
  Mr. Tom King: The hon. Gentleman says that Mr. Justice Parker had the Nye letter in his possession when he penned the report. Does the hon. Gentleman have any information as to whether Mr. Justice Parker was entitled to consider that letter, since he had closed the inquiry? My understanding was that further evidence could not be taken after the inquiry was closed.
  Mr. Cook: I entirely accept that submission. That was a perfectly precise legal interpretation of the situation. Indeed, it would be appropriate for Mr. Parker to say that this was evidence that he was not able to consider, and evidence which would not shape his mind in putting his report. Yet the Nye letter sets out explicitly to correct a misunderstanding which arose at the hearing. If we take the interpretation of the role of reporters at an inquiry as being that they are not allowed to consider letters aimed at correcting misunderstandings, we are getting ourselves into an Alice-in-Wonderland situation.
  Mr. Abse: In view of the intervention from the Opposition, may I point out that the Foreign Office reply to Dr. Nye unequivocally stated that, despite the fact that the inquiry had been formally completed, it was being arranged for the secretary of the inquiry to see a copy of the letter and the reply? There is no question but that the matter was brought to the notice of the inspector—unless the secretary refused to give it to him—before he penned his report.
  Mr. Cook: I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
  The important question here is not whether Mr. Parker misunderstood American policy. The question is, if this is American policy, is it correct? I belong to a wing of the Labour Party which is not normally impressed if it is told that any action it proposes is contrary to United States policy. However, despite my political prejudices, I believe profoundly that in this case United States policy is correct.
  Hon. Members will have seen on the front page of yesterday's Daily Mirror a rather large and alarming headline about "Bomb Alert in Japan." This was followed by a CIA report about the possibility of Japan eventually deciding to develop nuclear weapons. I do not know whether that story really merited such splash treatment. However, I was struck by the argument put forward by the CIA that a factor in any Japanese decision would be "global permissiveness about such activities." For once I think that the CIA is perfectly correct. One of the things that has influenced States to proceed with nuclear developments—not just decisions to manufacture weapons, but decisions on developments which are ambiguous as to the end products—has been this global permissiveness.
  When Britain decided to develop nuclear weapons it was not a clear-cut decision made one day. Margaret Gowing has provided us with a service in outlining the history of early nuclear development in Britain. This shows that it was difficult to pinpoint a specific occasion when the decision was taken to develop nuclear weapons. We first decided to separate and stockpile plutonium. India and France also took this decision as a first step before they developed any nuclear weapons. In India the separation plant began five years before nuclear weapons were developed. Other ambiguous developments have included the sale of reprocessing plants to Pakistan, which does not have a single reactor capable of burning plutonium.
  This sort of global permissiveness is what nudges States into getting into the nuclear weapon game. If we aid and abet them by providing a nuclear reprocessing plant which is available to all on a commercial basis, we are nudging everyone

  1597
  into the nuclear game, and encourage permissiveness in the international climate and permissiveness among domestic opinion which may believe that these developments are acceptable.
  The question is not whether a nation can obtain a nuclear weapon. We all know that it can if it is determined to do so. The question is how we can best discourage it from becoming so determined. President Carter's policy to discourage the separation and isolation of plutonium is an important step towards discouraging countries from such determination. That policy is worthy of support, not sabotage.
  The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) said that this was a serious issue and then he said—and I feel sure it was a slip of the tongue—that therefore he felt it was inappropriate for a Division at the end of the debate. I am sure this is not what he intended to say. It is a serious matter and because of that it might be valuable if we do have a Division so that the public outside can clearly see how the balance of opinion rests in this House.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godroan Irvine): Order. During the last one hour and thirty five minutes we have had five speeches. If that rate of progress is maintained there will be a great many disappointed hon. Members.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. David Penhaligon: I note what you have said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I shall certainly speed up the operation. I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh Central (Mr. Cook). I have 100 per cent. sympathy with much of what he said.
  I believe that the House has underestimated the significance of the international fuel cycle evaluation programme initiative by President Carter. Whatever hon. Members may feel personally about the initiative by President Carter, they should at least consider why there should be panic and why it is necesary to make a decision now before the evaluation takes place.
  When it does report, it may well come to conclusions that will break the back of the financial arguments for the Wind-scale plant. It is possible that the United States may well say to countries through-
  1598
  out the world to which it supplies enriched uranium that if this uranium is exported to third countries, it will cut off further supplies.
  If the United States did that, the whole idea that Britain could scoop the world pool of international reprocessing would be yet another myth alongside so many other myths that this House has swallowed in the past 15 to 20 years.
  That makes the arguments for not saying either "Yes" or "No", overwhelming. We should wait until the American evaluation body has reported. It would be interesting to put on the record what President Carter proposed. In order not to upset the pro-Windscale Members, I shall give Mr. Justice Parker's version of President Carter's initiative announced on 7th April 1977. The first point of it was:
  "Indefinite deferment of commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium."
  He wanted no more recycling to take place until there had been an evaluation of the possibilities. President Carter's initiative also said that there would be
  "Increasing United States capacity to provide adequate and timely supplies of nuclear fuels to countries that needed them so that they will not be required or encouraged to reprocess their own materials'."
  There was a significant commitment to allow the inquiry to take place with a minimum amount of aggravation and pressure from the countries concerned. The United States would supply the amount of material required to those countries that already had reactors so that at least there would be no pressure on them to go in for reprocessing.
  President Carter announced
  "an embargo on the export of equipment or technology that could permit uranium enrichment or chemical reprocessing."
  He announced that he was pursuing discussions on
  "a wide range of international approaches and frameworks that would permit all countries to achieve their own energy needs, while at the same time reducing the spread of the capabilities of nuclear explosive development."
  That is the crux of what the President announced, yet today, by an overwhelming majority I expect, we are about to cast that initiative to one side like so much fluff from a Third world country, to say that the President's initiative is of no consequence and that we shall plough

  1599
  on, using the opportunity to become the world leaders in reprocessing. While the technologies of other countries might not be used to the full, we intend to use this lull to take the lead. That is a decision for which this House will be poorly remembered in years to come.
  I would enjoy the irony if, in the final analysis, the Carter regime had the courage to announce that it would not allow the transfer to third countries of materials that it had sold, because that would smash once and for all the financial economy of the plant that we are suggesting.
  Before the outcome in three weeks or a month, I should like this Government to produce some evidence to show the cost of what we are voting for today. It would be helpful to have one paper which assumed that President Carter will agree that there is no alternative to reprocessing—the assumption that we are making today. Let us have another on the premise that he will say that there shall be no re-export of original nuclear material to third countries.
  A third document should concentrate on a possibility which I rate as more likely than does the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central—the possibility that the international pressure will be for spiking plutonium when it is returned—and should outline the cost of that. What the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central said about countries obtaining plutonium for spiking is basically right. If plutonium is spiked and left under protection for eight or 10 years, that artificially introduced radioactive material will of itself reduce enough by natural decay so that the plutonium can be handled again.
  There is also a short-term benefit in spiking when it comes to transporting the stuff. It is a credible response by the nuclear industry to those like myself who have used the terrorist argument a great deal. But let that, too, be costed. How is it to be spiked? Is it necessary to build special little power stations to do the spiking? How much does the process change the cost of the material to the country which asks us to do the treatment?
  The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Page) was concerned about plant safety in his constituency. He may be surprised
  1600
  to know that I agree with much of what he said. I do not believe that the Wind-scale reprocessing plant represents more of a hazard than many other technological installations. One does not have to look further than Italy for an example of a chemical plant which was a serious hazard.
  If the world is to increase its technology, I recognise that we shall build potentially dangerous plants—and I put the Windscale plant no higher than that. But going ahead makes a farce of the fast breeder debate by public inquiry which we have been promised later. I cannot conceive of that investigation being uninfluenced by evidence of enormous and increasing stocks of plutonium in this country.
  The question will be posed, as so many of the arguments are posed and won, by the nuclear lobby: "What do we do with this material? Where shall we put it? It has a half-life of 22,000 years or more. We can use it in fast breeder stations. It will be safer there, so we must build such stations." That is a substantial move towards a favourable decision for fast breeder reactors.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: Will the hon. Member answer the question that he himself has raised? If one does not use the 50 tonnes of plutonium in fast reactors, what does one do with it?
  Mr. Penhaligon: I understand from those who know more nuclear science than I do that it is possible to build a thermal reactor which will burn up the plutonium fuel—
  Mr. Skeet: No.
  Mr. Penhaligon: Many eminent scientists say that it is possible to build a thermal reactor which would burn the plutonium after it had produced electricity, a process which would result in less plutonium than had been put in. I am in no position to say that those people are crazy.
  Mr. Shore: It is precisely because I agree with the hon. Gentleman that I do not accept that this is any irretrievable commitment to a major programme of fast breeder reactors.
  Mr. Penhaligon: I am delighted to hear that. At least it seems that the

  1601
  Secretary of State has had similar conversations to mine, whereas most of the nuclear lobby in the House apparently did not even recognise that that was an alternative.
  I have made my next point many times. I believe that the gaps in the disposal scenario are so big that we are committing ourselves to spending money at the wrong end. It is said that we shall separate the nasty stuff, put it in glass and bury it in granite below 400 ft. or 500 ft. of concrete. That might work, but it does not alter the fact that no one has yet succeeded in putting this material into glass.
  Mr. Skeet: Yes, they have. The French have.
  Mr. Penhaligon: They succeeded in doing that in 1957, but, 21 years later, it does not alter the fact that nobody has done it today. I take the view that someone will succeed in doing this. It is a strong likelihood. If we were being asked to vote money for that research in isolation. I should be far more enthusiastic for the reprocessing plant.
  If it is proved in the end to be impossible to make large suitable glass blocks with this nuclear waste, the whole scenario of waste disposal that we have heard today falls apart and the very validity of the reprocessing plant has to be questioned.
  There is also the problem of reassuring public opinion, of finding a suitable granite structure in which this material can be finally disposed of. As a Cornishman, it gives me some delight to be able to say that it has been discovered that Cornwall—proud, and sticking out into the Atlantic as it is—is not quite stable enough to be considered as a possible site for the disposal of waste nuclear material. I have no doubt that our granite will be strong enough to keep Cornwall where it is, but it is not of quite such high quality as to be a reasonable possibility for the storage of nuclear waste.
  Some suitable granite will no doubt be found somewhere. I understand that experiments are being conducted in the Cheviots and in the South of Scotland. and perhaps also in some of the islands off the North of Scotland. New drillings will take place and in the end the geologists will pick the best site for dis-
  1602
  posal of the waste. But we in this House ought to know what is going on in this respect, so that we can be sure that the right decisions are taken.
  Mr. Hector Monro: The position is that planning permission has only just been applied for in the hills of South Galloway and the Cheviots, and there are many processes to go through before there is any likelihood of planning permission being given.
  Mr. Penhaligon: That intervention very largely backs my argument. Planning permission has not yet been granted for the drilling of holes in the rocks, yet we are talking of spending £400 million on the re-processing plant, on the assumption that the waste can be safely buried in some way in the granite. With this sort of background, I wonder whether the House is ready to take a decision.
  As to security, it would appear that the only way in which to find out whether security in a nuclear processing establishment is adequate is for someone to break into it. We are not, apparently. to be told anything about the security arrangements. This is a quite extraordinary and unsatisfactory situation.
  Certainly the question of civil liberties arises. I imagine that there will have to be the very deepest and most conclusive investigation of the background of anyone who is to have access to these establishments. A person's political opinions will be of extreme importance when he makes an application for work in such an establishment. No doubt his parents' political opinions and his children's political opinions will also be considered as relevant for investigation. There will also be checks on those with whom the applicant is in contact.
  These are all questions of the utmost importance from the security point of view. In the setting up of this sort of plant there will undoubtedly be a major erosion of civil liberties for a large number of people. This process will be extended to virtually anyone who at some time or other is to be responsible for the security of the material. Perhaps we have to accept this, but we should clearly recognise that that is the sort of reduction in civil liberties that is bound to occur.
  We shall certainly be voting against the motion—admittedly only a motion for the Adjournment—in order to indicate

  1603
  our dissatisfaction with the development at this precise moment, mainly on the lines that we cannot see the necessity for the rush. We cannot understand why President Carter's initiative cannot first be allowed to run its course, in order that we may be able to see the report and evaluate the findings. President Carter may well in the end come to the conclusion that reprocessing is inevitable. If that were the case, surely it would be better to set up, under the auspices of the United Nations, an international reprocessing plant, with the whole security problem in one particular area. That possible decision, and the possible encouragement that President Carter could give, have been pushed to one side by the Government. I regard it as most unfortunate, when we are so near to knowing the results of the inquiry.
  I ask also, very seriously, for more information on the financial aspects. President Carter said in his report—and no doubt he was basically right—that his responsibility for conducting a planning inquiry did not include checking out the financial possibilities of any scheme. That was clearly understood.
  Similarly, when the Secretary of State for the Environment receives a planning application from my constituency for some development, it is not up to him to decide whether the applicant will make money out of the project. The Secretary of State has only to decide whether it would be a good or bad thing for the community for the project to go ahead in the area concerned. Indeed, that was the approach adopted by Mr. Justice Parker. But the House of Commons is responsible for how much money is spent. It is also responsible, surely, for giving some guidance whether a project is likely to be successful.
  It is not long since Concorde was put before this House as a financial and economic proposition. It is not long since assurances were given that in no circumstances would the people in my constituency hear the boom-boom when the aeroplane was flying 30 miles off the Cornish coast. If hon. Members were to come to my part of the world, they would hear at 6.20 p.m. and 8.50 p.m. every evening the boom-boom of Concorde when it is flying off the coast of Cornwall. Not long ago the scientists
  1604
  were telling us that in no circumstances was it possible for this to happen.
  I ask the Secretary of State for a serious and detailed document, which we can study, on the financial consequences of this proposition, and dealing with the courses that I have outlined.
  7.47 p.m.
  Mr. George Thompson: I am one of those people who have a daily calendar giving little improving thoughts for every day of the year. When I looked at my little calendar this morning, I found that for Wednesday 22nd March the improving thought was:
  "How, like a moth, the simple maid
  Still plays about the flame!"
  There may be a moral for us tonight flowing from that thought, because in this debate we are playing with the flame, as the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) explained to us earlier.
  We are taking decisions—although the principal decision will not be taken until we deal with the special development order—which could be of very grave and even fatal consequence to people in the future. It behoves us, therefore, to give due consideration to all the problems which face us in coming to a decision tonight.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) has pointed out how easy it is for us to slide from one position and one decision to another, and to say that a decision here tonight will not, perhaps, influence the decision on the special development order, and then later that that has nothing to do with the decision about fast breeder reactors, and so on. Yet from one decision tonight we can easily slip to another almost without noticing it.
  I very much take the point made by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), that by going ahead with re-processing at Windscale we shall be rejecting President Carter's lead on the matter. We shall be throwing aside his advice, and the advice of other countries, when we could instead quite readily wait for some years before talking any decision at all. I should have thought that where there is doubt, and where there are good authorities supporting and maintaining this doubt in our minds, we ought to decide against something rather than for it.

  1605
  It is to the great credit of the Secretary of State that he yielded to the request of many hon. Members that this debate should take place, and that he found a procedural method by which it could be done. It is further to his credit that the final decision will be made by Parliament. Democracy is certainly at work, at least at the parliamentary level. So far so good. But, as has been pointed out by several hon. Members, the House is bound to notice the delay that we had with the Flowers Report and the haste that we are having with the Parker Report. It is incredible that the only debate we have had on the Flowers Report was when the hon. Member for Pontypool was successful in the Ballot for Private Members' motions. It is at least curious that the Government should put a debate on the Flowers Report on the same level as the Lord President tells me they put a debate on forestry. They consider it to be a suitable subject for hon. Members to raise, but not of sufficient importance to merit Government time.
  Mr. Justice Parker tells us in his report:
  "This report is, as I understand it, intended to form, as was the Inquiry, an element in a wide public debate on nuclear issues."
  How can it be an element in a wide public debate of nuclear issues if the matter is to be rushed through the House in this way? In that respect, at least, the learned judge was wrong.
  Hon. Members are being asked to form opinions on many difficult matters that took the judge 100 sitting hours plus many more hours pondering and formulating his report. I have not been able to discuss the matter with Professor Tolstoy, who is in America, and I should have valued the opportunity to do so. No doubt many hon. Members face similar difficulties and a number of objectors have expressed this view.
  According to the Secretary of State, the rush has been caused by the Japanese contract and the possibility of other foreign contracts. In heaven's name, why should we be in such a rush over a Japanese contract?
  Mr. Skeet: Because we may lose it to the French.
  Mr. Thompson: Some of us may think that it would be a good thing if we did.
  Mr. Skeet: If we do not discharge the contract, the French will do so and the reprocessing will still take place. If the hon. Gentleman is concerned about reprocessing generally, does it make any difference whether it is done in England or in France?
  Mr. Thompson: No, but I hope that public opinion in France could be stirred up to prevent the reprocessing taking place there.
  Mr. Skeet: They have signed up.
  Mr. Thompson: Public opinion may still have something to say about it and, anyway, I do not think that we should model ourselves on how France behaves in many matters. In any case, there will be plenty more waste to deal with later.
  I wish to raise the whole matter of the reprocessing generated from the furth of these islands. If I wish to oppose foreign reprocessing, I have to oppose the report. There is no way of supporting one bit of the report and not another.
  As to wastes generated in these islands, there is no need to hurry with THORP. We shall not then run the risk of Wind-scale becoming a white elephant. We have done this before in other matters and could easily do it again.
  The parts of the Flowers Report and the Windscale inquiry report that interest me most are those concerning the problems of nuclear waste, because my constituency is close to the hill chosen for some of the test borings that have been referred to. Speaking of the high level waste and methods of final disposal, the Flowers Report said:
  "We are confident that an acceptable solution will be found and we attach great importance to the search; for we are agreed that it would be irresponsible and morally wrong to commit future generations to the consequences of fission power on a massive scale unless it has been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that at least one method exists for the safe isolation of these wastes for the indefinite future."
  Mr. Justice Parker, referring to our obligations to future generations said:
  "These obligations include the obligation to find a safe resting place for our waste, if we can, rather than leave it for them to do so."
  Inevitably we have to ask ourselves "And if we cannot, what then?"

  1607
  Mr. Justice Parker also said:
  "Professor Tolstoy stressed that neither the HARVEST process for vitrification nor any other process had yet been finally proved. This is correct. On the other hand BNFL's witnesses were confident that the feasibility of vitrification had been established. What remained was to optimise"—
  whatever that means—
  "and demonstrate it on a large scale. I accept the evidence that a vitrification process will be successfully established. The stage of development has, I consider, been reached, when success can be confidently predicted. Indeed success must, either by the HARVEST process or some other process, be achieved."
  On what compulsion must it? Let Mr. Justice Parker tell us that.
  We who live in areas bordering the Irish Sea, which is a partially land-locked sea, are naturally concerned by the amount of nuclear development in our area and about the search for sites for the permanent disposal of the high level of nuclear waste when it has been vitrified—if it ever is—in a commercial way. We are bound to be concerned because the EEC document that we debated some time ago spoke of a network of nuclear disposal sites in the Community. How far will this process go? Are we to end up with a network of disposal sites all over the world? How many will there be? How long will this go on—one century, two centuries, a millenium? How long can it go on before disaster supervenes for the human species? As I have said many times before, this is an international problem and we should be seeking an international solution on disposal sites if they can be found. I am determined that we in South-West Scotland will not accept any such waste on any conditions at any time.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: The hon. Gentleman's colleagues in the SNP who represent other parts of Scotland advocate the expansion of nuclear energy and the building of an advanced breeder reactor. As the hon. Gentleman does not want it put in his constituency, can he tell us where his party believes that nuclear waste from Scottish power stations should be stored?
  Mr. Thompson: We are talking not about storage, but about permanent disposal.
  Mr. Taylor: Answer the question.
  Mr. Thompson: The hon. Gentleman is the most impatient hon. Member in the House. He always demands answers before other hon. Members get the chance to answer him.
  Mr. Taylor: I shall wait.
  Mr. Thompson: That is most gracious of the hon. Gentleman. I am pleased that patience is prevailing at last in Cathcart.
  As an international community, we should be looking at the whole business of disposal of vitrified high level waste. I am convinced that, for the sake of the whole human race, we must find a way of putting it outside the biosphere. I thought that if a search were made under the ice cap in Antarctica, suitable geological formations may be found which could take this material without danger to human kind.
  Mr. Taylor Mr. Taylor rose—
  Mr. Thompson: No, I shall not give way. The hon. Gentleman has never come in on debates in which I have spoken before.
  Mr. Taylor: That is untrue.
  Mr. Thompson: We are running out of time, and I do not think I should indulge in interventions from a sedentary Member.
  Mr. Taylor: The hon. Gentleman is saying that the SNP would like to defer further nuclear development in Scotland until this matter is resolved. He referred to storage in Antarctica and elsewhere. Is he aware that some of his colleagues in the North of Scotland want the programme to go ahead speedily? The hon. Gentleman is now saying that it will have to wait until Antarctica is examined as a possible place for storage.
  Mr. Thompson: I am giving my personal opinion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am entitled to do so. An hon. Member is in order in defending his constituency and the surrounding area. It is news to me that the immediate construction of a fast breeder reactor is part of my party's policy.
  Mr. Hamish Gray: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the SNP candidate in Caithness and Sutherland has demanded that the commercial fast breeder reactor should be sited at Dounreay.
  Mr. Thompson: He may have made such a demand. It is one thing to say that a candidate is demanding something, but quite another to say that that candidate is committing his party as a matter of policy. [Horn. MEMBERS: "Oh."] After all, the hon. Member for Cathcart is on record as saying that he wants hanging brought back to Scotland. He is portrayed in the Press as always wanting to see that practice brought back, but I never regard that as a clue to the policy of the Conservative Party.
  The House will be glad to hear that I shall now continue, following the foolish interruptions from Scottish Tories.
  I believe that research into alternative energy sources has lagged far behind research into nuclear energy, because the United Kingdom has been seeking weapons rather than energy for peaceful purposes. According to yesterday's White Paper on North Sea oil, we have the means to research into and develop these alternative sources. Of course, we could have chosen to do this long ago, but Governments chose not to do so. To push ahead with these projects is indeed a challenge—a challenge to mankind—whether we seek, as rapidly as we can, non-polluting and renewable energy sources.
  The hon. Member for Pontypool, in an emotive speech, almost made me believe that I heard the four riders of the Apocalypse cantering across Parliament Square, ready to come into New Palace Yard and carry us all off. We have not quite reached that situation, but I believe I can hear hoof beats in the remoter distance.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. John Evans: The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) mentioned the effect on people's lives of the security aspects of this subject. I must inform him that anybody who works in the defence industry is subject to restrictions of that kind and has been for a long time. Almost ten years ago I applied for a humble position as an armourer in an ordnance factory and was subjected to positive vetting. Therefore, there is nothing new in the suggestion that positive vetting is involved in defence matters. Security and civil liberties are an important aspect of this argument. It is not a major consideration, but it is important.
  1610
  I should like to declare an interest because I know that it is the tradition of the House to do so. I am sure the House appreciates that I have no financial interest in this debate, but I have major constituency interests.
  My constituency contains the Northern Division headquarters of the Atomic Energy Authority, the headquarters of BNFL, and the joint headquarters of the Nuclear Power Corporation. In the village in which I live with my family there is the safety and reliability division of the AEA. A total of 6,000 people are employed in the nuclear industry in my constituency. Furthermore, I am a sponsored Member of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers (Engineering Section), which is on record repeatedly and publicly in support of an extension of the nuclear programme, along with the TUC and most unions affiliated to it.
  My support for the nuclear programme does not spring from any constituency interest. I have a large constituency with over 100,000 electors. It contains three coal mines and two power stations, and there is a licence to drill for natural gas within the constituency. Therefore, the Newton area can well be described as an energy-conscious constituency. Whatever pressures may be put on me in my area, I must emphasise that they are always counterbalanced by pressures from another area.
  It has already been said that this debate is one of the most important this House has ever held. The Government are to be congratulated on the manner in which they have conducted this exercise. I and others wish to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment for the way in which he has conducted himself on this topic. He opened the debate with a well-balanced, moderate speech and put forward his arguments in a rational and reasonable way. Indeed, it says a great deal for the British people that we can conduct this important exercise in such a rational way.
  We have all read about the disturbances and problems in other parts of the world when the nuclear argument has been conducted, with pitched battles in the streets between police and population. At least so far in the United Kingdom we have conducted the debate in a

  1611
  civilised and rational manner. The environmental lobby, which has played such a large part in the argument, deserves considerable praise in that respect. It speaks well for the future of this country that so many people have a keen and determined interest in man's environment.
  I hope that those who oppose the nuclear programme will not assume that those of us who support it are any less passionate in our defence of the environment. Those of us who were brought up in the inner conurbations of our society and who when almost children had to work in heavy industry and suffer the consequences of pollutants are passionately interested in the environment. Many constituencies have had more than their fair share of industrial dereliction caused by chemical plants, and there have been subsidence problems in mining areas. Therefore, I wish to emphasise that hon. Members who represent such areas are still keenly concerned about man's environment.
  In some respects it is a great tragedy that this debate did not take place 30 years ago when the United Kingdom embarked on its nuclear programme. I do not wish to speak with hindsight but I wish to point out that Mr. Justice Parker in his excellent report said that BNFL had had 25 years' experience of reprocessing. Therefore, it is not an innovation on which we are about to embark, but a process which has been going on for a very long time indeed. The industry has been carrying out its work without any hysteria or problems and without anybody becoming bitterly upset about reprocessing. It is also recognised that, as the nuclear programme continues to expand in this country and the rest of the world, the demand for reprocessing facilities is bound to accelerate.
  We cannot assume that we can dispense with reprocessing and allow the accumulation of debris that flows from nuclear reactors. Mr. Justice Parker asked three questions at the outset of his inquiry and we have centred our debate around them.
  My view is that the first question, whether reprocessing should take place at all in the United Kingdom, is the most important. If the answer to that is "No", obviously the other two questions fall to the ground. It is clearly brought out
  1612
  in the report that the shortage of spent fuel could present a much bigger problem than reprocessing. I believe that the answer to the first question is "Yes".
  Dealing with the second question, the answer is that Windscale is the obvious choice. If we as a Parliament say "No" to that question we shall puzzle the British people very much, bearing in mind that reprocessing has been going on for 25 years. They will ask why we are stopping the process now. If the answer to that question is "No", it presumably means that we must stop all reprocessing, not simply that which would be involved in the building of a new plant. Stopping all reprocessing would he difficult to justify.
  By far the most difficult question is the third. It is this which divides us, across the political parties and within them. People who agree on almost every other subject find themselves on opposite sides of this argument. There have been some outrageous and emotive statements from some journalists and others. With their constant references to "nuclear dustbins" they have played up people's natural fears. When people hear the term "nuclear power they immediately think in terms of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and all the horrors that came from them.
  I recall one television programme in which the cameras cut from a discussion with some people about Windscale to shots of a nuclear bomb explosion and then showed interviews with those who had suffered the dreadful effects of the bombs at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I have this to say about the emotional argument, with the greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) who is, unfortunately, not present at the moment. Some of us could become emotional if we were to talk about losing our fathers in mining accidents when we were six years of age, or about losing other members of our family in the same way. We could become emotional if we were to speak about the people we represent who have suffered the tortures of diseases created as a result of working in the mining industry. We have to conduct the debate at a rational level so that we can arrive at correct answers.
  In considering the third question we have to ask what is the alternative. If the answer is "Yes" to the first two

  1613
  questions and "No" to the third question, that would be rather odd. We would be saying that we would reprocess our own fuel but not the fuel of anyone else. In my view this would drive those who currently have no desire to process their own spent fuel into doing so. As a result, there would be a proliferation of reprocessing facilities. In view of the arguments about the dangers which flow from reprocessing, that must be the worst of the alternatives. In forcing people into reprocessing their own fuel we would be ensuring that, as a spin-off, they had the facility to produce their own bomb. That is the essence of the Parker Report.
  I accept that some people will not agree with these arguments. I put one aspect of the case. There would be no difficulty for countries which wanted to move into this area to entice with high salaries European scientists and engineers who could assist them in the building of reprocessing plants.
  Mrs. Audrey Wise: Would my hon. Friend like to meet the argument put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) who pointed out that handing the plutonium to other countries gives them the opportunity to make nuclear weapons without warning whereas if countries undertake the reprocessing themselves we shall all know about it and it will be possible to take steps?
  Mr. Evans: I was about to make the point that it is recognised that any country which has a modicum of skill and engineering expertise and the financial wherewithal can make a bomb at present. We have seen examples of that over the past few years. I accept that there is a fine balance. The argument that reprocessing facilities should be kept in the minimum number of hands, in what are generally regarded as "safe" countries, seems to be an argument of common sense. I accept that there are dangers involved, no matter which way we go. There are various alternatives, such as the spiking of the rods.
  We should bear in mind that it has not so far been proved that other countries want to make the bomb. The argument about reprocessing is that we should keep the reprocessing facilities in as few hands as possible and should assist the Third world countries in particular.
  1614
  Those who are opposed to the general concept of the nuclear programme will not accept any of these arguments. I have heard and read the argument that we should abandon the nuclear programme. That is a legitimately held position and people have the right to take it. If they hold that position they have to tell us what the alternatives are. While I, like every other hon. Member, support the proposals for alternative sources of energy, it has to be recognised that at the present stage of man's knowledge all of the suggested alternatives can add but a tiny fraction to his energy requirements.
  I hope that the House will accept that this is a world-wide argument, not simply a British argument.
  We are fortunate in being so well blessed with regard to fuel. We have coal, oil, gas and nuclear technology. A great deal of the world is not blessed with any of those resources, which we possess in such abundance. In his opening remarks my right hon. Friend said that the countries of the Third world looked to the Western industrialised world. Are we now to turn to the Third world and suggest that it be denied the alternative of nuclear power? This is a powerful argument and as the Third world seeks to improve its standard of living, one of the areas to which it will turn will be nuclear power.
  I look forward to a debate on fast breeder reactors. It has to be recognised that one of the problems facing the nuclear industry is the desperate uncertainty which has hung over it for a decade. I do not believe that the House has taken sufficient cognisance of that. What is happening in the nuclear industry is that many of the highly skilled and highly qualified scientists, technicians and engineers are approaching retirement. There is, consequently, an age gap with our scientists which is causing serious concern. It is fair to say that the attitude of the workers in the industry is one of bewilderment. They do not know which way the Government will make up their mind about the nuclear programme—or whether there is to be such a programme. Those workers have as much right as any other workers to know what the future holds for them.
  It has been said that the views of the workers are biased because they come

  1615
  from within the industry. That is true. They are as biased as the views of any other workers, whether they be in the motor car industry, the shipbuilding industry, the docks or anywhere else.
  One thing has to be recognised by those who put forward that argument. Those who work in the industry are sufficiently highly skilled and trained that they can get a job in almost any other industry. I do not refer only to the scientists and engineers. I include, for example, the fitters, electricians and boiler makers. They are all highly skilled and highly trained men. They are proud of the tremendous safety record that their industry possesses.
  I have worked in many industries, including shipbuilding, ship repairing, marine engineering, heavy engineering and chemicals. I am prepared to state categorically that there is not one industry in the United Kingdom, or in the world, that has a safety record matching that of the nuclear industry. That is something of which to be proud. It is something that I should like to see equalled by other industries, especially the other energy industries.
  It is right that we have debated these matters. I agree with every hon. Member who has suggested that the more information we can get, the better, as that will lead to the British public being better informed and to better decisions being taken.
  I have spoken to many workers in the nuclear industry, and I appreciate their feelings of uncertainty. We are having a long debate and there have been debates in the past. I hope that once we have gone through the due processes the Secretary of State will put the appropriate order before the House, that we shall start removing some of the uncertainty from the minds of those in the industry, and that we shall move forward with an industry that has given such great service to the United Kingdom over the past 25 years.
  8.22 pm.
  Mr. Peter Rost: No one has campaigned harder in the House over the past few years than I have to try to urge the Government to adopt a more meaningful policy on energy conservation. However modest I may
  1616
  be, I have to make that statement. It may be that it is not widely enough appreciated. My effort has been directed at impressing upon the Government the need to cut out the appalling waste in heating our buildings, in industry, in industrial processes, in transport and in the way in which we produce our electricity. Similarly, I have worked hard to try to impress upon the Government the need to encourage new sources of energy—for example, more research and development on tidal wave power, solar power, wind power and fusion.
  However, even if we were to start taking more seriously conservation and the new sources of energy, we have to admit that conservation will succeed only in slowing down and at best achieving a nil growth rate in our already increased energy consumption over the years. We have to admit that even if we started to take more seriously the development of new resources, they could be phased in to replace oil and gas probably only after the turn of the century. I am not alone in making the assumption that that leaves the probability of a gap that is likely to widen after the turn of the century, and so far only coal technology and nuclear power are certain to fill it.
  I support the conclusions of the Parker Report for four reasons. I shall go through them briefly as I do not want to go over ground that has already been covered. First, the reprocessing of oxide fuel will be needed even if we do not develop the fast breeder reactor because spent fuel from the AGRs is building up and untreated plutonium is, in my view. a greater environmental hazard.
  Those who argue against reprocessing did not, to my recollection, make a great deal of noise in the House when the Government recently announced that they were to go ahead with the construction of further AGRs. Why did they not carry through their argument to its logical conclusion and say "We must not go ahead with more nuclear power stations because we do not support reprocessing plants"? It is illogical on the one hand to encourage, or support, the Government when they propose to build more nuclear power stations, while on the other hand seeking to deprive the industry of the opportunity of reprocessing the material that will inevitably be required.

  1617
  Secondly, I support the proposals because we must maintain a viable nuclear option for reasons that I have outlined. Conservation and alternative sources of energy do not seem likely to fill all the gap. Therefore, the nuclear building programme will have to continue.
  Thirdly, reprocessing systems will undoubtedly produce huge indigenous energy reserves that would otherwise be wasted. We do not know whether they will be needed, but there is no justification for allowing those huge potential reserves to be wasted.
  Fourthly, I believe that the risks of pollution and terrorism have been exaggerated. I believe that they are unrealistic and that if we accept and implement the recommendations in paragraph 17.8 for improved safeguards, the risks will be less than if we did not go ahead. Those who do not support that argument—we have heard some of them today—and do not support nuclear reprocessing in Britain, or a future nuclear expansion, have so far failed to propose any alternative option. The anti-nuclear lobby refuses to face a realistic alternative.
  I have considered the alternatives and I support them absolutely, but I accept that they do not at the moment assure us of a guaranteed energy future. Those who are opposed to reprocessing and a nuclear future in terms of its being environmentally unacceptable must surely consider the alternative options.
  What are those options? Even if we can find our way to developing economically and in large enough quantities new renewable sources of energy, as I more than many would prefer to see, and even if we develop wave power, wind power, solar power and, in time, fusion, we must accept that those forms of power, too, imply serious environmental hazards.
  For example, wave power would have to be harnessed off the North-West coast of Scotland. It would involve hundreds of miles of pipes, probably worse than six-lane motorways, running through large parts of the country. Wind power, if it makes a contribution, will involve about 500 200-ft. high towers for each 1,000 megawatt power station equivalent. How many 500 towers each of 200 ft. will that involve around the coasts of the British Isles? Opencast coal mining, if it
  1618
  were to replace the nuclear power that we shall not be allowed to have if the antinuclear lobby gets its way, will have to be expanded. Thousands of acres will be at risk.
  The report of the Health and Safety Commission on the hazards of conventional sources of energy, which has just been published, gives some interesting comparisons which emphasise that there is no easy option which will give us energy without some environmental hazards.
  On average, there have been 50 fatal accidents a year in non-nuclear energy industries. There is a much higher proportion of deaths in non-nuclear industries than in the so far excellent safety record of the nuclear industry. But, even if we overlook the deaths in industries which produce alternative sources of energy to nuclear energy, there are far greater environmental hazards if we reject the nuclear option.
  Apart from the deaths and ill health of those involved in the coal-mining industry, coal production by the turn of the century would have to be trebled and liquefied and gasified to begin to replace oil and gas. Will the trebled production of coal be automated? Will miners be redundant? I cannot see it coming as quickly as that. The consequences are far more environmental hazards to larger numbers of the population involved in the extraction of coal.
  As we explore deeper waters to extract oil and gas, the risks of accidents, damage to pipelines and spillage of oil in transportation are only now becoming realities. We know how serious they may become in future unless we accept the nuclear alternative.
  There are risks of serious accidents from explosions in the huge plants which will have to be developed to convert coal into gas and oil. How many Canvey Islands shall we have to construct to convert and then to store the converted coal, plus the transportation risks which will be involved?
  Those who are opposed to the nuclear option must get these matters in proportion and accept that there are serious environmental as well as health risks in the alternative solutions. There are greater threats than those I have outlined to the wider population.

  1619
  Consider the accidents which have occurred from the harmless-looking hydro-electric power. In Italy in 1963 a dam burst killing 2,000 people. Many alternative sources of energy, which appear environmentally more acceptable than nuclear power, produce far more serious hazards than the nuclear option.
  I shall mention one further threat which I regard as the most serious of all if we reject the nuclear option. I refer to the environmental pollution which will undoubtedly increase from greater coal-burn. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) has worked hard on exposing the serious risks of sulphur dioxide discharge from our power stations. We know about the acid rain in Scandinavia and elsewhere. We also know about the risks of carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide fumes. That is on a coal-burn of about 120 million tonnes. What will it be like at the turn of the century with three times that amount of coal-burn as an alternative to the nuclear option?
  There is still the completely undetermined hazard from the increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which many scientists are seriously predicting is likely to lead to serious climatic changes around the globe.
  I note that all these scare-mongering stories of mine are not mentioned by the anti-nuclear lobby. I put a simple question to the House: what sort of argument is it that exaggerates in alarmist fashion the case against nuclear power by over-emphasising unknown hazards in emotive terms, playing on the fears and ignorance of many people, yet refuses to put into any sort of realistic perspective the possible alternative risks?
  The only way to adopt a true perspective is to recognise that all forms of energy production and consumption carry environmental and safety hazards, and that these should be assessed realistically. It is only those who put the antinuclear case who appear to be ignoring the alternative risks.
  The emotive rubbish which is talked about the nuclear risk would, perhaps, carry more weight if those who argued it used the same criteria as were given at the Windscale inquiry and are used for the currently acceptable minimum safety standards in nuclear power development
  1620
  and applied them to some of the other everyday hazards which we appear to accept without challenge or emotive language.
  For example, if the same criteria were applied today to coal, coal mining would undoubtedly end immediately and the burning of coal would be prohibited. If the same criteria were applied to tobacco, cigarette manufacture would be banned overnight and cigarette smoking would be illegal. If the same criteria were applied to the motor car, its production would be closed down and its use would be immediately prohibited.
  Let us have a rational debate and keep a sense of proportion about nuclear hazards, known and unknown, putting them in perspective by at least discussing what the alternative environmental hazards are, or are likely to be, if we do not go nuclear.
  On my assessment, all the energy options involve risks. I believe that the nuclear contribution to our energy resourcces is inevitable. I hope that we shall not be over-dependent upon it, but I regard it as inevitable and I support it because I believe that it will involve us in less environmental risk than will the alternatives. Those who are so eager to arouse fears and doubts about the risks of nuclear development would sound far more convincing and far more sincere if they applied themselves with equal vigour to the even greater risks of not going nuclear.
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Hooley: The Windscale inquiry is part of the great international debate on nuclear power which will continue for a long time. In the United States, there was the massive report from the Ford Foundation, to which one of my hon. Friends has already referred, and I shall quote from it a short passage about reprocessing:
  "Reprocessing would complicate waste management by broadening the spectrum and potential difficulty of problems … without reprocessing and recycle, there would be time for a more orderly and assuredly more error-free process in both management and disposal aspects of waste."
  Again in the United States, on 28th October 1976, we had a State decision by President Ford that
  "The United States should no longer regard reprocessing of used nuclear fuel to produce plutonium as a necessary and inevitable step

  1621
  in the nuclear fuel cycle … the avoidance of proliferation must take precedence over economic interests."
  In fact, it was President Ford, not President Carter, who set this process in motion.
  Understandably, the Nye letter has been referred to, and I shall quote two passages from it because the Parker Report is extremely misleading on the question of the American attitude. In that letter Mr. Joseph Nye said:
  "we cannot give any assurance that BNFL may count on MB10s"—
  that is, permission to transfer fuel—
  "as a matter of course for feed for a new plant or in support of any long-term reprocessing commitments it may enter into."
  He went on:
  "The enclosed excerpt from the Windscale hearings incorrectly concludes that we are prepared to consent now to retransfers of such products after reprocessing which will not take place for at least 13 years."
  I find it difficult to believe that the United States Department of State would go out of its way to write to the Foreign Office on those points unless the Parker Report itself had been misleading. Of course, I do not say that British policy must be determined by the United States, but, clearly, American policy on reprocessing generally must have a bearing on our general argument.
  In Australia there was the report of the Fox Commission. In Sweden nuclear power became a General Election issue. In West Germany it has become a constitutional issue, and in France there have been riots and civil disturbances. In Britain we had the Sixth Report from the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution and the Windscale inquiry. The Government have promised a major public inquiry on the fast-breeder reactor. So across the world there has been and is major international debate on this issue. It is by no means resolved.
  I should like to deal with the report of the Royal Commission because it is widely quoted in the Parker Report. Further, it has greatly influenced my thinking on this subject. It is not antinuclear. It says in recommendation 45, on page 204, that
  "The abandonment of nuclear fission power would, however, be neither wise nor justified … But a major commitment to fission power
  1622
  and a plutonium economy should be postponed as long as possible."
  The central message of Flowers is contained in paragraph 512, on page 195. It says that
  "The basic belief of the Department of Energy and the AEA is that nuclear fission using the fast breeder reactor is the only real option for meeting our future energy needs. We fear that on this premise there may be a gradual, step by step progression."—
  that is what worries me about Wind-scale—
  "to overriding dependence on nuclear power through tacit acceptance of its inevitability, and a gradual foreclosing of other options that might have been available had they been exercised in time."
  It goes on to say that:
  "We recommend that it should be an aim of policy to lessen our future dependence on fission power to the extent that this would command public acceptance in the light of a full understanding of the implications and of the issues involved."
  In other words, the message from the Royal Commission is quite clearly that we should proceed with the utmost caution and examine with the greatest care all the oher alternatives before committing ourselves to this particularly dangerous approach.
  In striking contrast to Flowers is the Parker Report, in which every argument for delay is swept aside. What is worse, whenever Mr. Justice Parker runs up against a serious and difficult argument he simply dismisses it. That occurs repeatedly in the report. I take as an example page 21, paragraph 6.34, on the very important question of the international nuclear fuel cycle evaluation programme. It was put to him very fairly. He was asked what would happen if, as a result of that evaluation, international agreement was reached not to reprocess fuel commercially. In that case, Mr. Justice Parker said, THORP would become redundant. We are proposing to spend perhaps £1,000 million on this highly complex plant, but it seems that the Government are not prepared to wait a couple of years until this important international study has been carried through to see whether we are embarking upon a project which we may find ourselves required to abandon by international treaty. That argument is met by Mr. Justice Parker by the attitude "In that case we shall not want it".

  1623
  Professor Tolstoy said that neither vitrification nor any other process for solidifying waste had been finally proved. Mr. Justice Parker says that that is correct, but he simply adds
  "Success must either, by the HARVEST process or some other process, be achieved."
  He simply gets rid of the difficulty by saying that we must find a solution.
  What worries me about the Parker Report is this attitude to serious objections which are advanced by highly qualified scientists in the various aspects of the matter. They are simply met by this dismissal of the arguments without their ever being taken into consideration.
  Mr. Rooker: On my hon. Friend's first criticism, I support my hon. Friend in the way in which he dismisses Mr. Justice Parker's arguments. But surely the plant would not be built by the time international agreement was made. We should only have wasted the expenditure incurred between now and perhaps three years' time, and that would not involve constructing the entire plant.
  Mr. Hooley: I do not think that my hon. Friend could seriously argue that absolutely nothing will be done and no expenditure will be incurred in the next three years. I agree that the plant may not have been completed, but we shall be going ahead on that basis and presumably the organisation of the whole fuel cycle will be done on that basis if we agree to THORP. I cannot for the life of me think what is the point of launching a scheme and going on with it for two or three years when we are aware, as the Parker Report says, that there are very important international negotiations taking place which might put us in a position of having to abandon it through the signature to some treaty on this issue.
  Mr. Abse: Is not the whole point that all the designing work and all the expenditure earmarked for the building work could come about without any planning order at all? There is, therefore, no need for the House in the next debate to take the decision if all that is intended is to do the preliminary work.
  Mr. Hooley: That is another part of the argument. I accept that. But what is a little ironic is that a great many of the arguments against building THORP at all are set out with considerable
  1624
  cogency in paragraph 8.9 of the Parker Report, on the ground that we should for some time proceed on the basis of storing the spent fuel. The advantages of doing this and not going ahead with THORP as set out in the report are as follows. First, the plutonium and uranium would still be available for recovery if it was decided at some future date to go ahead with a reprocessing technique and the use of plutonium. It would still be there. It is not destroyed. The problem is that one cannot destroy this stuff. That is the whole problem with nuclear power.
  Secondly, if it is stored and not reprocessed there would in the meantime be no separation of plutonium, no addition to plutonium stocks and no movement around the country of this extremely dangerous substance.
  Thirdly, there would be no discharge of radio-activity into the environment, which is involved in reprocessing. It would be avoided for the near future, and we might avoid it indefinitely.
  Fourthly, the additional plutonium that we would get from going ahead with this process is not needed. The report makes absolutely clear that even for those who are passionately attached to nuclear power and who want to go ahead with a fast-breeder programme, this could be achieved without the THORP programme, because the necessary basis exists from the Magnox scheme. Even those who are passionately attached to nuclear power and want the fast-breeder system do not need THORP to go ahead with that for a period of at least until the end of the century. If we hold up this scheme we can gain extra knowledge and experience of the control of radioactive discharge. We might be able to reduce it by various techniques or eliminate it altogether.
  There would be time to strengthen and increase the safeguards against the proliferation of nuclear weapons. This is a complicated argument, and one in which there are also pros and cons, but on balance, if it were felt that there was advantage in safeguarding against nuclear proliferation by delaying reprocessing—the American Government clearly regards that as a serious advantage—we should put that against the odd economic and other considerations which seem to weigh so heavily with BNFL.

  1625
  The report states that
  "alternative sources of power coupled with conservation measures might satisfy energy needs to an extent which would make it unnecessary to resort to nuclear power at all."
  I believe that this is the key argument. It follows on the argument of Flowers.
  We have heard a very great deal of argument about the energy gap. My view is that Mr. Justice Parker got hooked on the energy argument at an early stage in the inquiry and could not bring himself to reject the nuclear case because he felt that if we did that the energy problem would not be soluble.
  But we must look at some of the suggestions that the nuclear industry has made about the need for nuclear power at the end of the century. The record is amazing. From a footnote to page 78 of the Flowers Report it appears that only a few years ago the nuclear power lobby was seriously suggesting that by the end of the century we should need 285 gigawatts—the equivalent of nearly 200 nuclear power stations—to satisfy this country's electricity needs. The forecasts rapidly came down to 104 gigawatts. In the current energy consultative document of the Department of Energy they are down to 40 gigawatts. I believe that even that is beyond this country's economic and engineering capacity by the year 2000, in view of the speed at which nuclear power stations would have to be commissioned and built.
  Over a period of only about three years the official calculations and projections of the AEA have come down from 285,000 megawatts to 40,000. Heaven alone knows what the AEA will produce next year as its calculation. Can one take seriously the arguments of such people about energy gaps? I find it impossible to believe their projections.
  Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: I fully accept what my hon. Friend says about the needs in this country, but does he not accept that if the world population increases in the way that is virtually certain the only prospect of feeding the world is to have plentiful supplies of energy to desalinate water, pump water and produce fertiliser? Without nuclear energy, can my hon. Friend see any real prospect of our dealing with that problem?
  Mr. Hooley: Indeed I can, because this planet is not short of energy. There are masses of energy in the physical system in which we live. I agree that there is a technology gap. We have not yet advanced sufficiently in the technology of harnessing solar power, the wind, waves, water, geothermal energy, and so on, to produce the renewable energy.
  We are using up the energy capital of the planet—oil, gas and coal—instead of using our massive natural energy revenue. We have not solved the technology. I want to see the world tackling that technology problem along the lines that the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) mentioned, so that we can exploit the infinite energy potential on the planet.
  What worries me about the Windscale inquiry is that we are not heeding the warning of the Flowers Report. Flowers said "Don't exclude the other options. Go careful, careful down the nuclear road, if you go there at all." Parker says "To hell with that. Get on with it. Build this thing and never mind the consequences of proliferation, radioactive accidents, terrorism and the rest. Do the thing tomorrow." That is a fundamentally mistaken attitude.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Subject to the Business Motion's being carried, the debate may continue till 11 p.m. I understand that the winding-up speeches will probably take about an hour. Twenty-one hon. Members are still anxious to take part. When I was in the Tea Room the other day I was greeted by some hon. Members as "Bashful Brevity", because of my repeated appeals for brevity. So, uncharacteristically, I do not propose tonight to appeal for brevity, but I have stated the facts.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Jopling: I told Mr. Speaker that I should be brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I intend to do as I said. I regard this subject as being of huge importance to my constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Page) said many of the things that concern those who live in Cumbria, which makes it rather easier to be brief.
  My own constituency is only 15 miles from Windscale. Before the Parker

  1627
  inquiry took place, I shared with many of my constituents fears about what was implied in the reprocessing plant at Wind-scale. It was for this reason that I was one of those who originally joined in the call for the inquiry.
  I have been immensely impressed by the Parker Report. Also, if I can say this without giving myself apoplexy, I was equally impressed by the speech of the Secretary of State at the beginning of the debate. It was an extremely impressive speech.
  I oppose totally those who are opposed to the Windscale project and are expressing their opposition by turning on Mr. Justice Parker. I notice that very few of those who attack him are levelling an attack on the two very eminent assessors who sat with him. The fact that those assessors are left out of the attack means that there is very little scientific ground on which the report can be attacked. I feel very much happier in my mind about this project than I felt before the inquiry took place. I think that my feelings now are fairly widely shared in Cumbria.
  It would be helpful for the House to know the local attitude to this development. First, the economic development and planning committee of Cumbria County Council wrote me a letter this week, of which I want to read just two sentences:
  "The Committee welcomed the conclusions reached by the Inspector and by the Secretary of State. In their opinion, this fully vindicated the view they had originally reached, namely that the application could be approved with appropriate safeguards."
  Secondly, the application is supported by the district council.
  Finally—and this is one of the most important things—the application is supported by the trade unions whose members are already working on the site at Wind-scale. The hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) referred to the trade union attitude to this development. I think that those hon. Members who were in the Grand Committee Room last night to see the film that was shown by BNFL, which was attended by a panel of shop stewards from Windscale, could only be impressed by the enthusiasm that the shop stewards clearly showed for the development.
  1628
  Having read the report, it seems to me that it is perfectly clear that this country must have a nuclear energy capacity. It becomes clear that, with the supply of fossil fuels becoming finite, particularly oil supplies, coal leaves us with too narrow a resource to embark on the future. I agree totally with Mr. Justice Parker that a go-ahead for the reprocessing plant at Windscale does not constitute a pre-emption of a decision on the fast breeder reactor later.
  My main point is concerned with the safety of the plant and the risks that might be involved. It is on the recommendations that come at the end of the report that I want to end my speech. These recommendations are crucially important to the people who live in that part of England. It is the people who live in Cumbria, and in the Isle of Man, who are at the sharp end of any dangers that might exist.
  I do not feel prepared to say "Yes" to the Windscale development until I know fully what the Government intend to do about those recommendations. BNFL told us last night in the Grand Committee Room that so far as those recommendations put an onus on BNFL to take action, it is fully prepared to take it.
  When I asked the Secretary of State during his speech to give an assurance that the statement which he promised about the Government's reactions to these recommendations would be made before the next debate on the order, I realised that perhaps he was not immediately able to give a full affirmative reply to that request. However, I must make that request again. It is of the greatest importance in view of the interests of the people who live locally.
  I should also like to bring in the Isle of Man. I have a copy of a letter that was sent to my hon. Friend the Member for Essex. South-East (Sir B. Braine) from the administrator and secretary of the Isle of Man Local Government Board. I should like to read out parts of that letter which are of great relevance.
  It states:
  "all radioactive discharges to the sea from nuclear installations in the United Kingdom arise from the Windscale Plant and these, as you will know, are piped into the Irish Sea only some 30 miles from the Isle of Man. The Isle of Man Government is particularly

  1629
  anxious to ensure that the conditions attached to the Special Development Order which the Secretary of State has said he will lay before Parliament shortly after the debate on 22nd March, are meaningful and enforceable."
  The letter goes on:
  "it is important, in our view, to seek to ensure that they are fully and satisfactorily implemented at an early date by the appropriate Government Departments."
  The interests of the people of the Isle of Man, and the interests of those who live in Cumbria, are of the greatest importance. These recommendations cover a variety of matters including transport security, whole body contamination, radiological protection standards, discharges and their limits, the nuclear inspectorate and, perhaps most important of all, local emergency arrangements if an accident should happen. One of the most disturbing things in the report was the way in which it was shown that local emergency arrangements were extremely unready. That is something which must be looked at.
  I hope that we shall have the assurance for which I asked from the Foreign Secretary. If not, I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to make an early statement on the recommendations in time for the House of Commons to take the final decision. That is of the most crucial importance.
  I also hope that in the implementation of Mr. Justice Parker's recommendations, the Government will consult Mr. Justice Parker. As I began by saying, my attitude at the beginning of the inquiry was one of questioning. I have come to have the greatest possible respect for the judgment of Mr. Justice Parker in these matters. I should like to think that the Government will consult him about the implementation of the recommendations which he has made at the end of the report.
  But if the House should divide tonight I do not feel in a position to vote in favour of the plans going through. I am not prepared to do that at this stage until I know from the Government what they intend to do about the most important recommendations which Mr. Justice Parker has made. I hope that the Government will be able to give the assurance I seek at an early date.
  9.4 p.m.
  Ms. Maureen Colquhoun: I wonder whether people
  1630
  find it extraordinary, as I do—having listened to the whole of the debate—how Members of Parliament constantly get up and congratulate themselves on holding a debate at all. It seems an extraordinary situation that we praise ourselves and either thank someone for allowing us to hold a debate or congratulate ourselves on having a debate, when this is perhaps one of the most serious debates that this House has ever held.
  Although I want to associate myself with those hon. Members who have said how impressed they were with the Secretary of State's speech—it was the kind of creative speech that we have come to expect from him—I am totally dismayed by its undertones. What did his speech mean to those who oppose Windscale, and what are the Government's intentions?
  I think it was Disraeli who defined the practical man—I do not think that there were many women around at that time—as:
  "A man on whom one can rely to repeat the mistakes of his forebears."
  That seems to sum up Mr. Justice Parker's report on Windscale.
  Indeed, it sums up the whole situation into which we have got ourselves over public inquiries and inspectors' reports. This causes me great concern because Windscale is a classic example of the general imperfections of the present system which we laughingly call public inquiry, public accountability and grass roots democracy. These public inquiries are meaningless nonsense to people outside. The objectors are either wealthy and able to afford counsel, or middle-class and articulate. It is very difficult for us to gauge the working-class reaction. Therefore, the inequalities, the dehumanisation, the exploitation of resources and the pollution arising from this kind of report are predictable.
  These predictable findings of such people as Mr. Justice Parker are the result of allowing the power of science and technology to fall into the hands of over-large institutions, Government and industry. It is a shame, but it is a fact that the report totally destroys the concept that big companies and Governments must become more accountable and responsible in their activities and must take account of human needs and ecology. This report does not take account of these factors.

  1631
  The inquiry's findings are a disaster for Britain if this House does nothing about them. I believe that Parliament is pathetic in what it is able to do and what it is prepared to do in such a situation. It does not want to take decisions. It wants decisions taken for it. Either that, or its decisions are bypassed completely.
  Many ordinary people in this country are terribly depressed about the fact that Britain may become the world's nuclear dustbin. There is no sense of responsibility for the future in the report, which puts life in jeopardy in Britain in the long term—not in the next few years, but in the time of my grandchildren and our great-grandchildren.
  Mr. Ronald Brown: Is my hon. Friend aware that the TUC has come to a contrary view? The evidence which it gave to the Parker inquiry was precisely the opposite to that which she has stated.
  Ms. Colquhoun: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding me of that, but I ask him to be patient. I shall come to our comrades in the TUC in a few moments.
  It is time that politicians put communities first and it is time to examine public accountability of high-level technological decisions, many of which have been totally wrong for communities. Yet public inquiry reports have been accepted by this House and by the great Departments of State which are supposed to be accountable to us. An example is Dr. Beeching's report on the railways—a first-class job of brilliant thinking, but only in terms of his brief to rationalise the railways. For people in different communities, the acceptance of that report was and will continue to be a disaster for Britain.
  Mr. Shore: The great distinction between Dr. Beeching and Mr. Justice Parker is that while Dr. Beeching was indeed given a specific brief to rationalise the railways, Mr. Justice Parker was appointed to examine the facts and given no brief except to probe and to find as much of the truth as he could.
  Ms. Colquhoun: My right hon. Friend must accept that I am talking philosophically. He is a creative political thinker. The Windscale report is a disaster in my
  1632
  view, and I am using my right as an elected Member to say so clearly and loudly. The Government's commitment to a plutonium economy is one of the most important issues of the day. It is a great tragedy that, on the Wednesday before Easter, so few people should be in the House to debate this dreadfully important matter. It deserves not a few hours but a few weeks of debate—but that just brings up the conflicts that hon. Members have.
  One fundamental matter that did not come out at the inquiry—because it was not in the brief—is that this plant is needed for the Common Market. Before any decision on Windscale is hustled through this House at the treble, Parliament and the country should be able to discuss the United Kingdom's energy policy and its contribution to a European energy policy.
  At the inquiry, the Central Electricity Generating Board said that a two-year delay would not be critical. So even those who are totally hooked on nuclear power take the view that a decision by this House now is premature.
  The decision that we shall take to go ahead will effect the fabric of this nation's ecology. It is not only a question of new technology. It is far more wide-ranging. The TUC and the unions, sitting on their backsides in committee, have narrowed the debate to a question of continuing employment, in a society in which the Treasury view of cyclical unemployment is replaced by the unions' dreadful fear of structural unemployment. Thus they accepted the need for a dirty industry unwanted by any other country.
  I understand the fears about unemployment but it is unforgivable that the unions cannot provide radical answers such as earlier retirement, work sharing, a shorter working week and a wage below which an employer is not allowed to pay. To support Windscale, a magnificent 1978 folly which will have the most deplorable repercussions, is a piece of shortsightedness of which the unions—and this Labour Government, if they accept the report—should be totally ashamed.
  Mr. Palmer: I accept my hon. Friend's great sincerity in this matter, but I am sure that she would not tell us that she

  1633
  is in the House of Commons as a Member of Parliament simply because she wants employment.
  Ms. Colquhoun: I can certainly tell my hon. Friend that as a member of the Select Committee on Employment I seek employment wherever I can find it. But I hope that this House will conclude that the Secretary of State can keep the special development orders in his office, unused and unwanted, because it seems to me from his speech to the House today that those special development orders are ready and that, whatever may happen today, the project will be pushed through.
  It is not only people outside who are cynical about politicians. There are people inside this House who are equally cynical of politicians and of the corrupt two-party system that we often see in this House of Commons, by which deals are made between the two Front Benches and the Back Benchers are merely left as voting fodder—and regarded as slightly ridiculous and emotional if they make a fuss about it.
  The Windscale inquiry may well mark the end of the middle-class pressure group, made of up people who do not live in the area concerned. It may be that the Friends of the Earth conceded in a logical and reasonable way that there may be a compromise over nuclear waste disposal, but the Friends of the Earth in my constituency would concede nothing of the kind.
  But where were the voices of ordinary people at the inquiry? This is something that ought to concern Parliament. Are they so downtrodden, so inarticulate, so unhappy over unemployment, or so bemused by the language of the technologists, the experts and the politicians, that they cannot use the system? It would still be important that they should in future be encouraged to participate, otherwise it makes the idea of democracy even more laughable than the two-party system that we have in this House of Commons.
  9.17 p.m.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: Like the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Ms. Colquhoun), I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for an excellent speech.
  1634
  President Carter's contribution to the nuclear debate centres upon the examination of the thorium-uranium cycle, thus avoiding, he says, the plutonium economy. This has been adumbrated on behalf of the Liberals by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon). He wants to await the report of the international nuclear fuel cycle evaluation. But I assure the Secretary of State that, although this is the nub of the Carter proposals, there are one or two great difficulties in it which should not be overlooked.
  The spent fuel will have to be reprocessed in a plant which has not yet been designed or built. The recovered fuels, thorium and uranium 233, will have to be fabricated in a plant which is more complicated to operate than the materials of the uranium 235 cycles, due to radiation from uranium 232 and thorium 228. Enrichment would be required to start up the cycle, and the time scale would probably be the mid-1990s.
  The impact of non-proliferation is limited, since plutonium is formed in the process, albeit in a small volume, and both fossil uranium 233 and uranium 235, together with the substantial enrichment facilities required, would carry a proliferation risk. Those are President Carter's own proposals.
  I back the Parker proposals, supporting the building of a new thermal oxide reprocessing plant at Windscale. They are correct, and should be endorsed by the House. It is both obvious and sensible to make use of indigenous fuel, namely, plutonium, the byproduct of spent fuel reprocessing. Such a step would substantially reduce Britain's future uranium requirements, all of which, as the Secretary of State said, have to be imported and would reduce the pressure on world stocks of uranium, thus helping to keep the prices of uranium oxide within manageable limits.
  Without the fast reactor, the annual requirements of uranium will rise continuously, to approach 17,000 tonnes by 2025 and, according to Dr. T. M. Marshall, the cumulative requirements of uranium would reach a maximum of 250,000 tonnes with the fast reactor and approach 1 million tonnes by 2050 with thermal reactors only. I hope that the Minister will bear this in mind, together

  1635
  with the fact that the added value element is significant.
  The uranium-plutonium recovered from the project envisaged at Windscale operating at full capacity would, if reused in thermal reactors, be equivalent to 35 million tonnes of coal—one-third of the production of mines in 1976.
  In my view, recycling is a conservation of energy resources not entirely dissimilar in concept, as my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) said, to the reclamation of waste paper and coloured glass.
  Plutonium may be used as a mixed oxide fuel for thermal reactors to produce electricity and for incineration in fast reactors to produce electricity. In turn, fast reactors will utilise depleted uranium 238 which would otherwise have no further use. Perhaps it would be significant to quote Dr. Walter Marshall, who said in November last year:
  "Some 60 per cent. of the energy in uranium could be extracted instead of 1 per cent. (in thermal reactors) making each tonne of uranium the equivalent of up to 2,000,000 tonnes of coal. The world's known uranium resources then become the largest and cheapest energy sources available."
  My second reason for supporting Windscale is that thermal reactors and the fast reactor are complementary. While all thermal reactors produce plutonium, there should be a fast reactor available to incinerate it. Advance reactor technology produces, at once, additional power and the protection of the environment by running down plutonium inventories.
  A thermal oxide plant would not be necessary for the fast reactor scheme up to the eighth station, but it would be necessary after that to reprocess the AGR fuels for further plutonium. Moreover, our commitments to the EEC, Sweden, Japan and others would have to be undertaken in a new plant, since the old B204 plant at Windscale has been closed since 1973 and has yet to be reopened.
  While all thermal reactors produce plutonium, a fast reactor may be adjusted to consume the material and produce virtually none itself—as Dr. Marshall put it—
  "to adjust the balance between plutonium produced and plutonium incinerated".
  1636
  However, it will be recollected that Magnox produces 600 kilowatts of plutonium for every 1,000 megawatts of electricity generated. The light water reactors produce 330 kilowatts and the fast reactor, unadjusted, 189 kilowatts. One would have thought that the "antis" would be very much against the Magnox system which has cumulatively produced up to 50 tonnes of plutonium which is available for use in a fast-reactor programme and will have to be accepted in the United Kingdom after debate in the House.
  My third reason for supporting Wind-scale and the nuclear programme is that the advance of nuclear power is required to fill the energy gap which will develop later and produce relatively cheap electricity.
  Nuclear power is safer than many suppose, while the combustion of fossilised fuels, particularly coal, is a greater contaminant of the environment than many thought. Paragraph 8.55 of the Parker Report says that
  "The possible need for a considerable nuclear programme may include the need to reduce reliance on coal since coal fired stations are probably at present a greater source of harm than nuclear powered stations."
  Curiously enough, we had only two days ago the report of the Health and Safety Commission on the hazards of conventional sources of energy. The report disclosed that the number of workers killed in the production of each 1000 megawatts of electricity in the United Kingdom were as follows: for coal-fired stations, 1·8; oil-fired stations, 0·3; and nuclear stations, only 0·25. More specifically, in 1975 alone coal mining gave rise to 64 deaths and 586 serious accidents. Furthermore, there were 31,871 cases of pneumoconiosis in the mining community.
  I wish to make two additional points. Sulphur dioxide emitted from stacks has a serious effect on respiratory diseases, such as bronchitis, and the severity is likely to increase the greater the tonnage burned. On ecological issues scientists are concerned about the growing insulation provided by a layer of carbon dioxide resulting from the combustion of fossilised fuels and its likely effect in terms of extensive climatological changes.
  Another problem was the adverse effect of nitrous oxides from combustion on the

  1637
  ozone layer, and thus on the amount of cosmic radiation reaching the earth.
  The fourth reason why I suggest that we should go ahead with thermal oxide plants is that the majority of reactors in the free world are light water reactors which use oxide fuels. As few countries have had any experience in reprocessing it—the Americans have no thermal oxide reprocessing facilities—it was sensible that Britain, with many years' experience and expertise, should enter this lucrative business by providing services and undertaking commitments on the fuel cycle. This would more than atone for failure to achieve success on the export of nuclear reactors. This would prevent the inexperienced, developing States, which have a right to nuclear power for peaceful purposes, from entering this field and inhibiting the growth of a multiplicity of plants around the globe.
  As BNFL has established a reputation in enrichment technology and reprocessing, it would be folly to hand over the Japanese contract entirely to the French. Further, by having fewer and larger reprocessing centres in the stable industrialised States, the dangers of proliferation would be diminished.
  I come to my fifth and final reason. The arguments against long-term storage —the only alternative to reprocessing—of spent nuclear fuel elements are several. While PWR zirconium-alloy-clad elements may be retained for about 20 years, the safe life of a stainless-steel-clad AGR element is about five years, due in part to the fact that the fuel in the latter operates at much higher temperatures than in the former and becomes more vulnerable to corrosion. In fact, over the longer term it would prove less expensive to reprocess them than not to do so.
  The growing volume of waste, together with the decline of radioactivity with the passage of time, would make the cumulative mass more vulnerable to thieves, since it becomes by human intervention a potential "plutonium" mine. Reprocessing offers the prospect of separating and transmuting the actinides, the long-lived radioactive components, to render them harmless by incineration. With the "throw-away" cycle a greater volume of actinides would require disposal. Through abstracting the plutonium and the fission
  1638
  products there is less plutonium in waste to return to the environment via the plutonium site.
  Mr. William Molloy: I am listening very carefully to the hon. Gentleman's interesting submission. I agree with him about the dangers, which have been proven, in respect of the use of coal. There is no doubt about the superiority of this other form of energy. What perturbs ordinary folk more than anything else is that we do not know about the possible effects of radiation, about what might flow from the processing operation. We know about the dangers connected with most other forms of energy—oil slicks, and mining disasters. What we do not know, and what the scientists disagree about, is whether there are dangers inherent in this other form of energy which we are not capable of assessing. Scientists say that it is possible that this might be better or that there might be danger in that.
  Mr. Skeet: It would not be fair to the House if I took up much time in answering that point. I have with me an extract which says that in the 15 years since 1963 no fatal or serious accidents within the United Kingdom nuclear industry were caused by radiation.
  The Secretary of State referred to a nuclear waste management advisory committee. This was mooted by the Prime Minister some time ago. It has taken 10 months for us to reach the situation when the right hon. Gentleman says that he hopes to form this committee but unfortunately does not yet have the consent of the chairman. This is far too slow. May I help the right hon. Gentleman out? There is already legislation before the House dealing with the establishment of a nuclear waste disposal corporation and a nuclear waste management advisory committee. This legislation implements the Flowers recommendations and would enable the Government to do, in a statutory framework, with parliamentary control, what the Department now proposes to do on a somewhat narrower footing. The right hon. Gentleman can have this structure if only he has the sagacity to support the legislation which I introduced a few months ago.
  The Americans are moving along similar lines. Senator Charles Mathias of Maryland has introduced into the Senate

  1639
  a nuclear waste management Bill which establishes a nuclear waste management authority with functions to deal with nuclear waste. It is strange that the Government, with all of their resources and advisers, have made so little progress compared with private initiatives freed from the problems of departmental restraints.
  I hope that I heard the Secretary of State correctly this afternoon when he said that he intended to accept certain of the recommendations of the Parker Report, specifically that dealing with paragraph 10.115, which says that
  "In the future there should be … specific discharge limits for each significant radionuclide whether the discharge is to sea or atmosphere."
  I hope that the right hon. Gentleman accepts this entirely and explicitly. There are limits on ruthenium 106 and strontium 90, and I hope that they will be extended to other elements, such as caesium 134 and 137, iodine 129 and tritium. I hope, too, that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us when he proposes to bring about a modification of the Radioactive Substances Act 1960. This was introduced some time ago and will require modification.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I dislike making a second appeal, but we are nearer the time when normally the Front Benches would begin to reply to the debate. I hope that hon. Members will help me to enable others to take part in the debate.
  9.34 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: I have heard your appeal, Mr. Speaker, and I shall cut many comments in my speech and concentrate on one issue. I do not regard myself as being part of the anti-nuclear lobby, nor can many of those who have properly criticised this report and some of its findings be regarded in those terms. Many of us support the view expressed in the report of the Royal Commission, which was not anti-nuclear but which argued strongly that we need to retain the nuclear option as one of a series of energy options.
  My great anxiety, very sincerely held, is that the concentration of capital resources upon this one field of potential energy will be so great as to deny any effective development of alternative possibilities. This can be of importance not only for us but for so many other coun-
  1640
  tries, too. It is an assurance on that issue that I want from this debate. It is because of my doubts on that issue that I am strongly tempted to vote against the Government at the end of the debate. I am even more strongly tempted to vote in that way when my right hon. Friend lays the order before the House.
  I share entirely in the good will towards my right hon. Friend for the action that he has taken up to now. Unlike some of my hon. Friends, I think that he has done an outstanding service in ensuring that the debate takes place and that a widespread debate is taking place throughout the country. We lead the world in our attempt to ensure that this issue, which is of profound importance to us all, is being honestly and sincerely discussed. Although I share many of the criticisms of my right hon. Friend as expressed, especially, by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook), I feel that the inquiry was well worth holding. It brought out a good deal more information than otherwise would have been available. I hope very much that the further inquiry on the fast breeder reactor to which my right hon. Friend referred will go forward.
  I hope that there will be a reasonable delay between today's debate and my right hon. Friend laying his order. I do not believe that there is any overwhelming pressure requiring him to lay the order within, for example, a few weeks. It is important that some time should be allowed to elapse from this debate to the real decision that will have to be taken when my right hon. Friend brings the order before the House. I appeal to him to consider allowing reasonable time for consideration of these issues throughout the country before the order is finally laid.
  I do not see how we can make a reality of the assurance that we seek that energy options are left open. How can we carry that out within our limited resources if the one claim on our resources in the nuclear sector is to be as much as is threatened by this proposal plus the potential possibility of the other developments that will follow? That is the issue that I find to be of overwhelming importance.
  There are those who seem to think it amazing that some of us are deeply

  1641
  concerned about the possibilities of the development of nuclear energy in future, especially as regards plutonium. They quote the dangers that we have lived among and known so well in mining and other industries. Can they not see the distinction that with this development we may be committing ourselves, and generations ahead in a way that none of our industrial developments has done previously?
  Nearly everything else in which we have been involved has allowed us to retreat. We are moving into an area with dangers from which future generations will be unable to retreat, even if they wish to exercise that option. As one who has been in the House for quite a long time, but will not be here all that much longer, I fear those dangers. That is why I believe that the Royal Commission was right to say that we must use every caution—every protection—to ensure that we do not make commitments that land us in a situation from which future generations will not be able to escape.
  9.41 p.m.
  Mr. John Hannam: The significance of this debate is borne out by the fact that the four Front-Bench speakers taking part are concerned with the three major Departments of Energy, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and Environment. Therefore, we should be grateful for the opportunity to debate the Parker Report. The introduction by the Secretary of State for the Environment has set the tone of what I consider an interesting and important discussion.
  In previous debates on nuclear power I have expressed my belief that a substantial percentage of the world's electricity generation in the coming 50 or 100 years will have to come from nuclear generation. I believe that as oil begins to run out at the end of the century and as coal becomes more and more the resource from which we shall want to replace our diminishing resources of gas and oil, rather than that they be used purely as boiler burning fuels, so will the countries of the world be building nuclear power stations. At the same time, those same countries will be pursuing every possible research avenue and exploration into alternative renewable energy sources.
  I do not believe that it is feasible to regard solar, wind, wave or thermal power
  1642
  as possible replacements for coal and nuclear electricity generation within the foreseeable future. I only wish that it could be so.
  Whilst there are differing views about the time scale for the using up of our non-renewable sources of energy, there is general agreement throughout the world that, even with a low projection of growth and a substantial increase in energy conservation, there remains a widening gap which can be filled only by nuclear generation. I do not intend to use this debate as a vehicle for rehearsing those arguments in detail.
  We have before us a proposal for the treatment of the accumulations of nuclear spent fuels and whether we should accept the findings of the Parker 100-day inquiry into further reprocessing facilities for the oxide-spent fuel which will come from the second generation AGR reactors.
  Debates have a habit of widening out into other subjects. From my own post bag in recent weeks it is obvious that many people believe that, by stopping or delaying the Windscale expansion, we are in some way striking a blow against nuclear power. In fact, as Mr. Justice Parker pointed out, the granting of outline planning permission does not necessarily mean that this reprocessing unit will be built. The BNFL may, in the final event—in 1982 possibly when it comes to the final stage of making the decision to proceed—decide not go ahead, possibly for economic reasons or because, in the meantime, this country may have decided internationally not to proceed with that degree of reprocessing.
  I believe that the Parker Report weighs up the pros and cons of reprocessing and, having allowed an opportunity for all interests to present their cases, comes down in favour of the oxide reprocessing plant in order to reduce the size of stocks of the more radioactive spent fuels.
  I support that conclusion, although I fully understand the emotions which have been aroused amongst those who have deep fears about nuclear technology and its implications for the future. Those fears relate to the dangers of radioactivity from waste emissions, from possible explosions in reactors—I believe that to be an unjustified fear—from terrorist activities and nuclear proliferation—that is a very important aspect—and from long-term

  1643
  storage problems, which I consider to be probably the most important aspect.
  However, it is important to remember that the BNFL has more than 25 years of reprocessing experience with 19,000 tonnes dealt with, producing over 10 tonnes of plutonium, of which 7½ tonnes are still in store.
  In the United Kingdom some 12,000 tonnes of irradiated fuel have been transported over a total distance of more than 3 million miles in servicing our power stations. That is a wonderful accomplishment, and it has been done without incident of any kind. This is going on, and will continue, because if it did not our Magnox reactors could not produce the base-load of electricity upon which our industries depend.
  Whatever decision is now made about the new oxide plant, the reprocessing of Magnox fuel will continue, and this will mean that by the year 2000 some 52·5 tonnes of plutonium will have been separated, plus a large amount of highly active liquid waste if none has been vitrified by that stage.
  The BNFL vitrification process development, which started in the 1950s and then, because of lack of support by successive Governments since then, was put into abeyance, is now back in full operation and should result in a full-scale plant within the next 10 years. This is obviously of tremendous importance, and in March 1977 Parliament, through the Secretary of State, gave planning permission for that development, and the Government began the process of finding the finance for it. So we are already in the process of overcoming the vitrification problems.
  With the AGRs producing the oxide-spent fuel with 10 times the radioactivity of the older fuels for Magnox, unless we have provided for ourselves adequate and safe reprocessing facilities we shall have some 4,150 tonnes of spent fuel, and this will have to be dealt with in some way or other by the year 2000. On top of that, we shall have some 200 tonnes from the prototype reactors at Windscale and Win-frith. If further reactors are built, as I am sure they will be, the total will rise to some 6,000 tonnes from United Kingdom reactors alone. To put the matter in global figures, for the non-Communist
  1644
  world we are talking about 40,000 to 50,000 tonnes of nuclear waste.
  BNFL has been reprocessing spent fuels from several countries and, indeed, exports plutonium to various authorised countries. The United States itself has just authorised three more shipments totalling 48 tonnes of spent uranium oxide fuel, and this is now on its way to Wind-scale.
  I have never believed that President Carter intended to halt reprocessing in the major nuclear partners. Indeed, I should be prepared to wager that a fast breeder technology will be well under way in America by the turn of the century.
  However, having said that, I should add that I believe that the United States President was right to use his nuclear muscle to bring the world together to discuss and resolve the problem of international control of plutonium proliferation. His initial moves were somewhat counter-productive, but the subsequent enlightenment which he gave at his Press conference in April redressed the balance somewhat. He stated then that the United States
  "were not trying to impose their will on those countries like Japan, France, Britain and Germany which already have reprocessing plants in operation. … They have a perfect right to go ahead and continue with their own reprocessing efforts."
  Mr. Justice Parker, however, is not altogether clear on the United States position in this regard. I take the view, especially in the light of Mr. Joseph Nye's letter to our Foreign Office in December, that the Americans quite possibly, under President Carter, will not agree to reprocessed materials being exported. This could hit the Japanese contract on the head, which could in turn kibosh the whole of the THORP project, although I still think that there is a case for a plant for United Kingdom reprocessing.
  The other development which also could cause a delay in the project could be the international fuel cycle evaluation programme—INFCEP. This is due to report next year, and if an agreed international policy on the fuel cycle is produced, the Windscale extension may not be needed. This could in turn affect the decision—it is still to be made—in about 1982 by BNFL.
  I hope that the Foreign Secretary will give us some more information about the United States attitude, since it bears importantly on this future development.
  Mr. Hooley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Hannam: There is great pressure of time, and I should prefer to complete my remarks.
  The other important subject which the inquiry covered was that of radiation dangers, both from the point of view of employees and from that of people in the surrounding areas. In the last nuclear debate I gave some comparisons of the likely incidence of accidents in the nuclear industry. I referred to other possible disasters, and I shall not go over those except to add that I believe that our peaceful nuclear power industry has a safety record second to none. The probability of nuclear radiation deaths for its employees is less than the probability of accidental deaths in manufacturing industry. In some industries, such as construction and mining and quarrying, the accident rate is 10 times as high.
  The position concerning local communities is equally reassuring. Even if that once in 10 million years an accident occurred in which substantial radioactivity was released, and if, pessimistically, all 10,000 people in the area received that radiation, all available evidence predicts that there would be only 15 fatalities. Compare that one in 10 million chance with the existing death rate from cancer of 25 per 10,000 people. That is happening now. Radiation exposures from the discharges at Windscale would be less than from a granite house in Aberdeen and far less than from certain places on Dartmoor.
  It is unfortunate that the headlines always seem to distort the truth about nuclear power. If two men fall off a scaffolding the headline reads "Atom deaths in France". If a minor plant malfunction takes place the inevitable headline appears "Atom blast at Wind-scale". My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) quoted other irresponsible items from Sunday newspapers.
  Mr. Justice Parker has called for a tightening of safety and security precautions at Windscale, and that makes sense. When it comes to protection against terrorist activity he was vague, and presumably that was for security reasons. But the fact that for some 25 years or more all
  1646
  plutonium movement has taken place by sea, air and land shows that effective security precautions are in operation. But with the increasing and accessible stocks of plutonium at Windscale one can feel some concern about the lack of detail in the report on these points.
  Let me reiterate my belief that we shall need a substantial nuclear contribution to our electricity generation in the coming 50 years. Our nuclear industry has the skill and ability to maintain a safe and dependable supply, and the problems of vitrification and disposal of waste can be overcome if the hysteria which surrounds the subject can be dispelled.
  I welcome the report and I am glad that we have had the opportunity to debate it. I also support having a further debate on the fast breeder reactor when and if the time comes. I thank the Secretary of State for allowing us to debate this very important matter tonight.
  9.53 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Brown: I, too, pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for his clear speech and the way in which it has helped us to address ourselves to the report of Mr. Justice Parker. I take issue with him on one aspect. He said that the report was unique, but I do not agree. The only unique part about it was the planning fiddling that went on. In 1967 the Government of the day had already made up their mind on reprocessing. They did not go to the people, and therefore Mr. Justice Parker is dealing not with a novel issue but merely with an extension of the existing facility.
  I shall keep my remarks brief, since I have offered to sit down early so that one of my hon. Friends can speak in the debate.
  I wish to address myself to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse). It was distressing to listen to him, with his strictures on British Nuclear Fuels Limited and the way in which he couched his contempt for it. That seemed to me to be absolutely appalling, particularly since I do not recall any criticism from him on the fact that the Americans have exported their light water reactors throughout the world, and I regard them as inherently dangerous.

  1647
  I have never heard my hon. Friend a any stage express his contempt at the fact that that was done for sheer profit and that at no stage was safety ever considered. I listened to him with interest, and in the brief time that was available to me this evening I searched the records to see whether he had commented on the various safety factors—for example, on the question of an emergency core cooling system. Perhaps he did comment, but he did not do it very loudly, certainly not as loudly as he expressed his contempt this evening for BNFL. If he did comment, I can find no trace of it.
  Not having made that sort of criticism in the past, my hon. Friend is yet tonight able to assert that he accepts lock, stock and barrel all that the Americans have said. He says that the TUC does not know what it is talking about. He refuses to understand his friends in the TUC. He would much rather hear what the Americans have suggested to him. This is a society which up to a few years ago refused to have an independent regulatory function. It originally had, under the AEC. The regulatory person and the adviser to the President were one and the same person. Of recent date the Americans have come round to the concept that they ought to have a regulatory function separate from the advisory.
  My hon. Friend is basing the whole of his future on what the current fashion of the Americans happens to be. What he did not tell the House was that he was not quite sure what the fashion will be next week. All he knows is that for this purpose today, 22nd March, it happens to be suitable to him. Therefore, he was able to cast aside all the other arguments.
  My hon. Friend did not address himself to the other important factor. The question really is, as we have the material to deal with, whether we bury it or burn it. His argument was that to burn it was wrong. He went through a tortuous speech lasting 24 minutes explaining that.
  What my hon. Friend did not explain was how one deals with burying the material. Is he arguing that posterity will thank him that much more if he leaves it with that problem, rather than burn it and use the results of the burning? He did not argue this case. I am sorry that he did not spend some time dealing
  1648
  with that. It would have helped the House.
  It is easy to say that something is wrong. Thousands of people are arguing that there is something wrong. My hon. Friend argued in a destructive way. Very few people can suggest constructively how to deal with the problem.
  It is said that the matter is being raised in every country in the world, There is only one common factor in all these countries, particularly in our own area of Europe, and that is the travelling salesman, Dr. Walter Patterson, who "has hag packed, will travel". It is the same story wherever he goes. It is not credible, but he gets it across. He will keep on saying it wherever he is. He has very little regard for the truth in terms of the total issue. He trades on the people's fear. He is a fear salesman. I was sorry that my hon. Friend should have chosen to follow that course.
  I pay tribute to Mr. Justice Parker's report. Few people could hear such a massive amount of evidence and produce a cogent report that people can understand. People can make up their minds about it. But it cannot be gainsaid that Mr. Justice Parker attempted to evaluate the options available. I hope that the House will support my right hon. Friend tonight.
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. Paul Hawkins: I am most grateful to be called on this matter. I have thrown away two-thirds of my speech because what I would have said has been much better said than I could have said it. I have a constituency interest.
  I refer to the "Essential background" in the Parker Report, paragraph 2.1
  "This report is, as I understand it, intended to form, as was the Inquiry, an element in a wide public debate on nuclear issues. Moreover it was repeatedly stressed by one or other party in the course of the Inquiry that the public are badly informed and should be better informed. I have no doubt whatever that this is so, in the sense that the public should be provided with more in the way of digestible and reliable information."
  Mr. Justice Parker goes on in the same strain and finishes that paragraph by saying:
  "Furthermore the anxieties which are felt, and deeply felt, however irrational and misplaced they may be, undoubtedly exist and are elements which must be taken into account."

  1649
  About 10 years ago the Central Electricity Generating Board bought 300 acres of land in my constituency within two miles of my home town, where my family had lived for the past 10 years, within a mile and a half of the town of Down-ham Market, within the village of Denver. It bought this land from the drainage authority. It was waste land which was left after the completion of a drainage scheme.
  The CEGB has notified the Norfolk County Council of its interest—
  It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Ordered,
  That the motion in the name of the Prime Minister for the Adjournment of the House may be proceeded with at this day's sitting, though opposed, until Eleven o'clock.—[Mr. Bates.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bates.]
  Mr. Hawkins: People living in my constituency particularly those living in my town of Downham Market, need to be given assurances—assurances that any community can demand when faced with the possibility of the building of a power station, which I am sure will be nuclear. We want the Government to tell us as soon as possible whether there will be such a power station, to tell us that there is no better site—none that is further from a built-up community.
  In such cases cost must not be the deciding factor. I am prepared to listen to the case for the power station, and I have met the CEGB, which has been most helpful. If the need is proved, the Government and their agencies must bring the county council, all other councils, involved, and the people of the district into the picture at the earliest possible stage. The people must be kept informed and given assurances.
  I am told that when the power station is completed it will give employment to between 400 and 600 local people. That would be of immense benefit to my constituency, which has high unemployment. But there is another side to the matter. While the doubts exist, there is stagnation in development and blight to property. That cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely.
  1650
  There can be great difficulties during construction, which I believe takes six years. During that time the work force builds up to 2,500 at its peak. What has been done to arrange for extra police and extra schooling, and to prevent the destruction of local roads? Downham is a very friendly and delightful town, but even its even temper could be tried by many of the troubles that can come in the wake of such a work force.
  We have attracted many retired people, and they must not have their lives made a misery or their property values depreciated.
  Mr. Brian Sedgemore: Is the hon. Gentleman for it or against it?
  Mr. Hawkins: I am sitting firmly on the fence. I am trying to point out how the people in my district feel about nuclear power. They should be reassured at the earliest possible date and given as much information as possible. I need that information, and I trust that we shall get it throughout the period between now and whenever a nuclear power station is built.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The winding-up speeches will begin, I hope, at 10 minutes past 10 o'clock.
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly, as I have for many years been president of the Socialist Environment and Resources Association, and I was among those who urged on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the inquiry should be held. I must confess that since then, having read the report and having considered the matter over the past few months, I have come to the conclusion that my views should be changed and that the plant should be built, notwithstanding my previous opposition to it. The reason for my view is that I think that Mr. Justice Parker has demonstrated that if we are to rely on nuclear energy at all, the plant is a requisite for continuing to do so.
  I fully accept that many of my hon. Friends would argue, as I have argued in the past, that it was not necessary for

  1651
  us to have to rely on nuclear energy for the generation of electricity, and that if one does so, there is undoubtedly a very grave risk. Mr. Justice Parker has reduced the fears, but by no means has he fully allayed the fears of all the consequences of the storage of nuclear waste and all the risks dealt with in the report.
  However, there is one overriding factor that has caused me to support the plant from now on. That is that we know that the world population, even on the most optimistic estimate, will increase by 50 per cent. by the turn of the century, and may well have doubled by very soon after then, on a rather less optimistic estimate. We know that there is scope for expanding world food production sufficiently to meet the need for food by the turn of the century—for the next 30 or 40 years. We have had the Cabinet Office paper "Future World Trends", which investigated this matter in depth, and the conclusion of that study was that world food production was capable of being expanded but that the limiting factors were money and energy.
  I have come to the view that if we do not have the energy supplies necessary
  1652
  within the rich countries to generate a relatively wealthy society, and if we do not have the energy capacities to use for desalination, the pumping of water and the production of fertilisers, we shall not have either the resources or the will to resolve the world food problem.
  Therefore, I accept that this plant is a necessity because it is necessary for us to continue to rely on nuclear energy. However, although I accept it as being a necessity, we cannot justify continuing to use the resources that nuclear energy will produce to provide ourselves with yet higher and higher standards of living. The object of the gravely dangerous course that we are undertaking is to ensure that the world population can survive and be fed. Therefore, I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends, please support this plant because of that.
  After reading Parker, I am certainly not satisfied that the risks are as small as he suggests, but whereas there are risks in having the plant, world starvation if we do not have the energy resources is a virtual certainty. Therefore, I believe that we should have this plant.
  10.8 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Heseltine: I say at once that this has been one of the best parliamentary debates that we have had for a very long time. It is a great tribute that the Secretary of State, in response to many cries, found the opportunity to debate a subject which as obviously been of great concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  I think that the whole House will recognise that Mr. Justice Parker has provided a report which, broadly, has covered all the subjects that were of main concern to hon. Members. There has been very little raised today in the debate that was not dealt with at considerable length in the report. I think that the overwhelming consensus from both sides of the House is that we owe a great tribute to Mr. Justice Parker for his work in this matter.
  All of us are aware that in dealing with the advance of high technology there is always a deal of quite legitimate anxiety which is based as much on the uncertainties and ignorance of the facts as it is on the genuine problems themselves. Perhaps remembering the early days of Concorde and some of the more worrying suggestions about radiation, noise and damage to the environment of one sort or another which surrounded the 10 years of development of that project, to see Concorde now in commercial service makes one wonder what a great deal of the argument at the time was all about. The fact is, however, that the Windscale proposals are obviously in a dimension that is different from the Concorde project.
  The development of THORP at Windscale presents us with an issue of bewildering complexity. It is only right that we should try to find as many of the answers as possible. It is quite true, as some hon. Members have suggested, that there are some answers which it is not possible to establish with certainty.
  Like the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), I start with the question of our judgment whether we should build into our forward energy plans a significant nuclear role. I do not believe that anyone has today seriously questioned that there
  1654
  is no way in which we can responsibly discharge our obligations to the future unless we were to assume that—whatever judgment one makes about the availability of energy in the next century—nuclear energy will be a significant part of national requirements. In that situation we cannot neglect the continued development of our nuclear capacity.
  The fact is that the expansion of Windscale may not be essential for our on-going energy programme. But in the best use of the materials—and perhaps more important, of the disposal of wastes—there seems to be absolutely no argument whatever that the Windscale programme is necessary. The fact is that the wastes exist. It is not a question whether we should start nuclear energy production. It is not a question whether we have an option of that sort. We are now producing waste materials, and they will greatly accumulate along with all the established risk which is at this moment unavoidable.
  The reprocessing which Windscale involves is one method of dealing with an existing quantifiable problem. Perhaps one of the things not stressed with clarity by some hon. Members who have anxieties about Windscale is what they think should happen with the wastes if we do not reprocess in the way that Windscale involves. I think everyone would acknowledge that there are risks whatever we do. But the balance of risk is very much in favour of moving in the Windscale direction rather than in storing the existing wastes on an ever escalating scale.
  I believe that the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) exaggerated the case in a way in which very few other hon. Members were prepared to do. I simply do not believe that it is in accordance with the facts to suggest that we are being stampeded by Japanese industrialists into the decisions that are being considered today. At the very least, by that analysis, the Japanese would be entitled to say that the debate had been going on for a long time in this country. The inquiries, reports and the whole range of consultations are things which the Japanese have watched being conducted in Great Britain and they have reached a point where they feel that a decision should be taken.

  1655
  The hon. Member for Pontypool did not answer this question: if we were to wait another 18 months or two years, does anyone believe that the issues would be easier than they are now? Would the Japanese contract still be on offer? The balance of probabilities is that it would not. If it is possible to move forward in the limited sense in which we are doing at present, and still maintain for ourselves the economic benefits that could come to this country from the Japanese and other overseas contracts, it must be right to make that decision today.
  The whole matter was put in context in the three questions which appeared early in the report. Should oxide fuel from nuclear reactors be reprocessed in this country at all? If the answer is "Yes", should it be at Windscale? If that answer is "Yes", should the plant be large enough not only to meet our national requirements but also those of overseas countries? The processing of oxide fuel must depend on one's fuel views of future energy needs, and I have said what my own view is on that.
  The second point raises questions of local safeguards. I shall come to that at the end of my speech. My hon. Friends the Members for Workington (Mr Page) and Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) stressed the vital local interests which are of particular concern to the people living close to Windscale.
  The third question deals with the whole issue of praliferation, and tied up with that are the issues surrounding terrorism and civil rights. My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) was right to point out that the materials coming out of the Windscale process, if Windscale develops, are particularly unsuitable for hijack or terrorist theft. One can minimise this risk by the spiking process. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) shakes his head. I believe that he is concerned that in the hands of the Governments to whom the fuel is delivered, the fuel could be despiked. However, in the context of terrorist abduction the spiking process is a very real safeguard.
  The House will agree that Windscale itself does not introduce a new dimension into the complexities of modern society. There are available in this country
  1656
  tactical nuclear weapons and bacteriological techniques, both of which add up to the same sort of threat as that which it is argued is posed by the Windscale fuel.
  The same argument could apply to the extension of threats to civil rights. All these problems are built in wherever human beings have invented techniques of mass destruction. We are not introducing any new principles. We are merely extending the areas in which we must take steps to find solutions to our immense difficulties. We must recognise that there is a national interest which justifies the introduction of the security techniques that are now available.
  I was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) attacking the Parker Report because it was vague on the subject of security. He seemed to argue that details of the security system to be introduced at Windscale had not been examined by Parker and until this House was told what the security systems were, how they could or could not be foiled and the weaknesses in them, we should not agree to them. That is the most naive statement that I have heard. The House does not have access to security systems throughout the United Kingdom. If it had, it would make a nonsense of those systems. The hon. Member cannot believe that that is a serious criticism of the Parker Report. It is just a debating point.
  This is a matter of ministerial judgment. Ministers must be responsible, and very few Ministers in any Government have access to the security systems which are of central importance to this country. It is within the prerogative of a tiny number of people in Government to have this information.
  There are broadly two arguments put forward on the question of proliferation. One has been put by the Friends of the Earth, and this is similar to the argument of the United States Government. There is an alternative argument which I shall set out.
  That argument is that if we do not reprocess fuel for nations that are using nuclear power for civil purposes, they will be tempted to move on to gain the capabilities to produce enriched fuel, together with the military capability that comes with it. The argument is that in

  1657
  this country we should have available on offer on agreed conditions, the techniques which enable us to carry out for other countries those processes which we do not wish them to carry out themselves.
  If there are nations which are determined to have a nuclear capability, they will get it regardless of all the niceties of the debate to on non-proliferation. But, if they are open-minded and are prepared to consider the highly desirable pleas of the Americans and the Western world in general, it is much more likely that we can persuade them not to move towards obtaining reprocessing facilities if we are prepared to offer those facilities in this country. We then have a much better chance of persuading them that that is the course to follow.
  In that context, the suggestion that we should wait for the international nuclear fuel cycle evaluation programme is in no way precluded by the decisions that the Secretary of State has put before us. All that he is saying is that today we are having a debate on the Adjournment that will not commit Britain to vast expenditure on nuclear reprocessing. Today we decide nothing. We are simply having a broad debate on the issues.
  We are then to have a special development order which will grant planning permission. That will be a long way from anything practical happening on the ground. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater said, the date on which something physical would happen, when concrete could start being poured, is about 1982.
  By that time, the results of INFCEP will be known and it will be possible then—perhaps only half-way to the process of actually building anything—to pull out if that were thought desirable. It would be possible to do so for a range of other reasons.
  Mr. Justice Parker makes it clear that his report does not say, even if we give the planning permissions, that Windscale will ever be built. All that is being said is that it would be right to move on now through the planning processes and not to allow the arguments which are put forward to delay us.
  I want to say why I think that that argument is conclusive. Let us assume that, however much we want the INFCEP
  1658
  or the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to work, they do not work, and that in two, three or four years we are back more or less where we are now, having to make up our minds what to do about the accumulating wastes in Britain. The argument then would be that the wastes are that much bigger and the problem is greater and that we need Windscale on stream faster. We would then be forced to push forward faster and on a larger scale with a complex and potentially dangerous innovation.
  In order to avoid getting ourselves boxed into that situation, we should now take a more leisurely pace, at which we could hope to learn to cope with the problems on a much more relaxed basis than we should be forced to do if we left it for several years. So the argument for moving forward is correct.
  No doubt the Foreign Secretary will want to talk about the non-proliferation treaty and the use of MB10 certificates. These have not been greatly discussed today because, by the nature of things, we shall have to wait for the Foreign Secretary's speech. But it would be helpful, as we shall be moving to the SDO debate which is critical for this matter, to hear something about the MB10 certificates and the current American policy as the Foreign Office now sees it.
  First, what about the coincidence of the recent decisions to grant MBIOs, which came almost coincidentally with the decisions and announcements of the Parker inquiry? Does that imply, as people have taken it to imply, that there will be a continuation of such certificates? If there were no such continuation, if there were to be a positive refusal of these certificates, would the Windscale plans then fall or would it still be intended, in the absence of a Japanese contract, that the proposal should go forward for domestic use only?
  Will the right hon. Gentleman also deal with the point which the leader in The Times raised, particularly as regards the interpretation of the non-proliferation treaty? Is it right to assume, in the Government's eyes, that the definition of the treaty itself commits us to a situation where we do all in our power to provide reprocessing facilities in order to encourage those nations with civil nuclear capability not to move forward into a military posture?

  1659
  The detailed anxieties raised specifically by my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington are very largely covered towards the end of the report. The Secretary of State, in his speech, went some way towards explaining the matter. I think he said that he would consider every one of the recommendations very carefully, and announced that in the case of two or more of them he had already specifically decided to move towards acceptance.
  Will the Foreign Secretary say whether, by the time we come to the debate on the special development order, we shall have a rather more detailed and fuller answer to each of the recommendations of the Parker inquiry? My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland feels that apart from the good intentions, there are too many loose ends left lying around in relation to the dangers about which his constituents are anxious. He and others of my hon. Friends would like to have some clear understanding about these matters.
  Anyone looking at the Parker Report from the angle of environmental and safety recommendations must recognise that it has done everything it humanly can to anticipate every aspect on which there could be legitimate public concern on the part of people living in the area. Recommendations have been put forward to deal with them.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central mentioned the standards of the Environmental Protection Agency in America. We have also heard about the standards to which the Germans are to be committed. In each case these standards are a great deal tougher than those suggested as being relevant to Windscale. It seems to me that there is a question here which is entitled to receive a full answer from the Foreign Secretary.
  I have no doubt at all that the subject is one which has greatly benefited from the debate that we have had today. I only hope that the Secretary of State, when he considers the procedure by which these massive planning decisions have to be taken, will feel that there is a legitimate lacuna in our planning procedures which usually prohibits this House from being involved in the process
  1660
  in the way in which it has been involved today.
  We shall be moving at some stage to a debate on the fast breeder reactor and on the Belvoir coal face. Both have very considerable implications over and above the usual sort of planning inquiry. The House is grateful to the Secretary of State for his device which has enabled this debate to take place, but device it is, and the House would, I believe, feel that it would be more appropriate to regularise the position and to have a procedure, recognised under the law of the land, to enable the parliamentary deliberation of issues of this sort to become part of the parliamentary process.
  My party will certainly not wish to divide the House tonight. Indeed, if there were to be a Division, I would certainly recommend that my colleagues support the Government.
  10.29 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. David Owen): The central issue before the House is brutally simple. The world is increasingly forced to look to nuclear power as a means of sustaining life, in the full knowledge that nuclear power, if misused, adds to the danger of destroying life once and for all. These are. therefore, major issues, we are right to debate them in this House, and we are right to question carefully and to proceed cautiously.
  Different views have been expressed in the debate, but everyone is agreed on the importance of the issue that we are discussing. We have not been stampeded. We have not acted hastily. We have acted with deliberation and only after careful thought.
  I could have highlighted many of the-contributions in the debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Heseltine) that it has been of very high standard. I single out the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), who has taken a lifetime's interest in this whole question, and who, in the Select Committee and elsewhere, has played a considerable part.
  In facing the basic dilemma, which is how to reconcile the continuing need for

  1661
  nuclear energy with the need to control the dangers of nuclear proliferation, most speakers have accepted that this country has a nuclear power industry and a continuing need for nuclear power. This means that nuclear fuel elements are being irradiated and will continue to be irradiated in our present nuclear power stations, and in those which will be coming into production in the next few years. The basic question facing us is what should be done with our irradiated fuel. We cannot escape that question. Under any option, there are varying degrees of risk of proliferation. We already reprocess the fuel from our Magnox reactors. We have no alternative. Magnox fuel detiorates rapidly and there is effectively no choice but to reprocess it.
  But the THORP proposal does not concern Magnox fuel. It concerns oxide fuel. From our domestic programme the fuel comes from advanced gas-cooled reactors. If we build PWR, the fuel will come from light water reactors. The question is therefore whether we reprocess oxide fuel.
  It has been suggested that instead of reprocessing the fuel from our AGRs we could store it, temporarily for two or three years, or for a longer period. Even this last choice can be broken into the alternatives of a stowaway route, where the fuel is stored with a view to its being recovered to be reprocessed one day, and the throwaway route, where the fuel is disposed of finally with no intention of ever recovering it.
  Irradiated oxide fuel is stored for a number of years, in most cases in ponds, to reduce the heat and radioactivity before reprocessing takes place. If there were any advantage to be gained from storing this fuel for an additional two or three years, it could be done, though at the cost of providing additional storage capacity.
  The existing AGRs are already producing irradiated fuel. This will, in any case, have to be stored for about 10 years until THORP is built. With AGR fuel, we do not yet know how it will behave in storage ponds after about 10 years, but we do know that after a shorter period the fuel elements show signs of corrosion.
  If we follow the stowaway alternative, we commit ourselves to storing accumulating quantities of irradiated fuel, which
  1662
  require careful management, and which, over the years, with the decrease of radioactivity, would become increasingly accessible to anyone with the capability of separating out the plutonium. In other words, we and the world, if it also adopts this course, would be building an ever-increasing number of potential plutonium mines—and still with the prospect of eventually building reprocessing plants of a size and type capable of dealing with this accumulation.
  The throwaway route means throwing away more than 90 per cent. of the energy value of nuclear fuel—roughly the equivalent of throwing away seven pints out of every gallon of petrol that a motorist buys. It also means finding suitable and acceptable geological sites for the permanent burial of bulky, increasing quantities of irradiated nuclear fuel. Anyone who knows the problems involved in planning inquiries in this area can have no doubt that it would be a very difficult course.
  By contrast, the reprocessing route recovers the unused material from nuclear fuel, reduces to manageable proportions the amount of high level waste that must eventually be disposed of. It allows us not only to reserve the recovered uranium but also preserves an option of using the separated plutonium, instead of allowing it to accumulate indefinitely.
  I stress the word "option". We gain the full energy resource value from reprocessing only if the plutonium is re-used as fuel. We have not yet taken a decision on fast reactor policy and will not do so for some time to come. We shall have an inquiry before we embark on the first commercial fast reactor, and neither that, nor any subsequent decision on whether, and how many, fast reactors should be built will be decided solely by the existence of stores of plutonium. Windscale is not critical in that respect, since the fuel which we already reprocess from our Magnox reactors provides enough plutonium for a sizeable fast breeder programme.
  Nor is there force in the argument that the substantial investment needed for the Windscale reprocessing plant somehow generates political momentum towards a large fast breeder programme. The cost of such a programme is of such a magnitude that any decision is bound to be

  1663
  taken on its own merits, and only after very careful consideration.
  The Government have therefore come to the same conclusion as the inspector that, on technical, environmental and energy policy grounds, we should reprocess rather than store our own irradiated fuel.
  It has been argued that we should defer our decision to go ahead with Windscale until INFCE is over. This study is intended as a clearing house for ideas and for the evaluation of technical alternatives. Underlying all this was our basic political objective. I was present at the Downing Street Summit when the issue was first discussed and the process of developing INFCE was first discussed. Nobody who heard that discussion with seven countries involved could have been under any illusion but that there were strong and soundly based scientific differences of opinion. It would be optimistic to find that at the end of next year 40 Governments, starting with quite different views in many cases, have agreed that reprocessing is or is not necessary or that fast breeder reactors are or are not necessary.
  It will be a useful opportunity to try to pool knowledge and scientific experience and, one hopes, to reach a broader consensus than at the moment. Because of the difficulty of reaching agreement, the Governments taking part agreed—and many made this agreement a condition of taking part—that INFCE would not be used as an excuse for delay in reaching necessary decisions on nuclear policy.
  In suggesting that we should await the outcome of INFCE—and a number of hon. Members mentioned this matter, including my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) and the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon)—hon. Members also suggested that by going ahead we are acting in opposition to President Carter's non-proliferation policy. I want there to be no misunderstanding in this House about the American view. They would prefer us to defer decisions pending the results of INFCE, and this has been conveyed to us by the Administration. We should know that, and take that decision in the full knowledge that that is their view.
  1664
  However, construction of the reprocessing part of the plant will start only in late 1981–82, though work on the ponds will need to start right away. I am advised that we need to lay the order now so as to be able to go ahead with the design work, obtain planning permission and go out to tender. Yet this timing will allow us to take full account of the results of INFCE as it proceeds—a point mentioned by both Opposition Front-Bench speakers—in how we design, safeguard, protect and manage the reprocessing plant and its products.
  The Government, however, fully share President Carter's objective, which is to limit as far as possible the danger of nuclear proliferation. I have made a number of speeches in support of that policy. I believe that successive British Governments have a proud record in championing the issue of non-proliferation. We have been campaigning for it when many other countries, not least the United States, were not taking as much interest in this subject. President Carter's interest in this subject is, in my view, totally genuine. Although we share the aim of limiting the spread of reprocessing plants, where we differ is that we believe we can best achieve this by offering other non-nuclear-weapon States the services of the new plant at Windscale.
  I was asked about United States policy, and particularly about what has been referred to as MB 10—namely, the formal approval for the transfer from one country to another of material enriched in the United States. They have said that they will deal with this on a case-by-case basis where the Government concerned has demonstrated a clear need for reprocessing. It will be some years before any approvals are needed for the transfer of material to the new plant at Windscale. Furthermore, the responsibility for obtaining the approval will lie with Japan or any overseas customer, except for our European partners, because of the right of freedom of movement within Euratom.
  In a television interview on 2nd May 1977, President Carter replied to the question
  "Could nuclear fuel elements supplied by the United States be reprocessed in several countries?"
  with the following:
  "Yes, they are now and I think would be permitted to be reprocessed in the future"

  1665
  Dr. Joseph Nye has however said
  "We cannot give any assurance that BNFL may count on MB l0s as a matter of course for feed for a new plant."
  We have INFCE and after that we have a number of years in which we hope to convert the Carter Administration to our view of reprocessing on non-proliferation grounds.
  I shall try to demonstrate why I believe that our view is sound. Japan already has a small reprocessing plant. There are already reprocessing plants in 12 countries, including small, pilot and laboratory plants, and at least three other countries are planning to have them. The most that we can try to do is to limit the number of additional plants, and we believe that the best way to do this is to remove the incentive for their construction by offering the services of our own expanded plant, particularly to non-nuclear weapon States.
  If we were to wait for two years what would happen? Few can deny that reprocessing would continue in the world. Some Governments, who might not otherwise have done so, might decide to build their own plants. We could not expect them to change their decision if we were to decide to go ahead, after all, in two or three years' time. We would accumulate irradiated fuel and would run the risk of having to build and operate a new plant at Windscale in a greater hurry than would be the case now, and most certainly at greater expense.
  If we need to reprocess fuel irradiated in the United Kingdom on grounds of better use of our energy resources and better waste management, and there is a case to be made for that, it is only right that we should offer the use of the plant to other Governments who share our view that reprocessing is a necessary part of the nuclear fuel cycle. In this way I believe that we shall reduce the need for other Governments to build their own reprocessing plants. In offering our services to other Governments we hope to satisfy their, and our, concern about the possible misuse of plutonium.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) to say something about the view of non-nuclear-weapon States. Many hon. Members know that we have had great difficulty in getting
  1666
  more countries to adhere to the non-proliferation treaty. There is a considerable anxiety that the non-proliferation treaty merely stops horizontal proliferation but allows nuclear-weapon States to have vertical proliferation. Further, there is a suspicion, and sometimes it is openly and hostilely stated, that under the guise of non-proliferation we are trying to hold back countries from acquiring the technology.
  Some argue that while it may be acceptable to reprocess our own fuel and to separate plutonium since we are a nuclear-weapon State, it is quite a different matter to reprocess other countries' fuel. They fear that we shall be separating plutonium and returning the plutonium to the country of origin and we shall be adding to the risk of the spread of nuclear weapons.
  First, we must recognise that plutonium is not the only weapons-usable material, and reprocessing is not the only sensitive technology. Highly enriched uranium, which is not the same as low-enriched uranium used as reactor fuel, can also be used in weapons. Enrichment technology, of which there is an increasing number of varieties, could well prove dangerous to the world, by making highly enriched uranium available. We need to control very carefully this technology and material. Plutonium also occurs in the fuel cycle apart from as a result of reprocessing.
  The issue of non-proliferation is clearly of central importance. I do not challenge any hon. Member who has raised this as a matter of concern.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The Foreign Secretary will recall that in the controversies over nuclear weapons and the use of nuclear energy for peaceful and other purposes over the past 10 years there have been many who were not nuclear disarmers but who were in favour of confining the use of nuclear energy to peaceful purposes. Why does the principle now outlined require that Britain should become the central production place for reprocessing?
  Dr. Owen: With respect, we are not the centre for reprocessing. It is a mistake to think that decisions are being made only in this country. The technology is advanced in many other countries.

  1667
  France is taking a contract from Japan for reprocessing. The existence of reprocessing plants is already fairly widespread. It could be said to be too widespread. I am second to none in wishing to try to restrict reprocessing, where possible, to those who are nuclear-weapon States.
  Mr. Abse: Will my right hon. Friend explain why he believes that when we, a sophisticated country with all our technology, know that it would take at least a decade to get a reprocessing plant, a novice country would get the process, if we held up matters for two years, without the technology and without the capital at its disposal? He has not answered that basic question.
  Dr. Owen: I listened to my hon. Friend's speech and I intended to answer that question. However, I shall answer it now. Some of the countries contemplating reprocessing are not in the novice category when it comes to technology. No one would think of Japan as a novice country in high technology. They will acquire the necessary skills. The knowledge of reprocessing is already all too widely spread and others are probably able to match our ability in construction and design.
  Article IV(ii) of the non-proliferation treaty states:
  "All the parties to the Treaty undertake to facilitate, and have the right to participate in, the fullest possible exchange of equipment, materials and scientific and technological information for the peaceful uses of nuclear energy."
  We do not regard this as an obligation to sell reprocessing plants, nor do we in our view have a legal obligation to reprocess for others. We do, however, have a responsibility to further the aim of the non-proliferation treaty. As a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group we have accepted an obligation to
  "exercise restraint in the transfer of sensitive facilities, technology and weapons usable materials".
  We shall certainly apply this restraint to the sale of reprocessing plants or technology. We have never made such a sale, nor do we intend to do so.
  The storing of plutonium is not new. Under present contracts BNFL stores plutonium belonging to foreign custommers until those customers have satisfied us that they have a legitimate need for it
  1668
  for peaceful purposes. The plutonium is then returned only under IAEA safeguards. The safeguards cannot, of course, be guaranteed to prevent proliferation, but they mean that States have to declare design information, maintain detailed material accounts and accept frequent visits by international inspectors. This system acts as a means of detection and as a deterrent to the diversion of material to explosive use.
  Nobody believes that the present safeguards system is perfect. Continuing efforts are being made in the IAEA, the Nuclear Suppliers Group and INFCE to improve and strengthen the international system of safeguards. As the system is improved, so the safeguards applied to our plants in the United Kingdom and to material sent to our foreign customers will be strengthened. We shall do our utmost to see that that happens. We already accept European safeguards on all our civil nuclear installations and we have made a voluntary offer to place all such installations, including Windscale, under IAEA safeguards and inspection.
  For the future we want to buttress the arrangements with an additional control. We shall do all that we can to improve the calibre of our safeguards in this whole sector.
  Mr. Rooker: As regards the transporting of plutonium and the exporting of it, is it right that we fly it out of the country? That is what I understand from the managing director of BNFL. Do we use civilian or military aircraft for that purpose?
  Dr. Owen: We do not use military aircraft. Mostly it is transported by ship. I shall return to the questions that have been raised on transport.
  We have been working in the Nuclear Suppliers Group, in the IAEA and in INFCE to reach international agreement on a system of international plutonium management. Such a system would mean that plutonium produced in Windscale and other reprocessing plants would be stored under international control and returned to its owner only when he had demonstrated a genuine requirement. Even then, we would return the plutonium only under IAEA safeguards, and only in a form that would reduce the risk of plutonium being stolen and misused by terrorists.

  1669
  International plutonium management is currently the subject of active international discussion. It probably offers the best prospects of ending the risk, or reducing the risk, of proliferation. It will be some time before details are worked out and agreed. But this should happen long before the new plant at Windscale has started reprocessing fuel for foreign customers. Equally, it will be some years before we have to determine the form in which the plutonium should be returned.
  The hon. Member for Bridgwater asked me to comment on whether we shall irradiate plutonium. The form in which we return plutonium will be determined in consultation with our customers who actually own it. But, in discussion with the Japanese Government, we have already agreed that this matter of concern must be resolved to the satisfaction of both Governments before any plutonium is delivered to Japan. The same will apply to any other customer.
  I was asked to deal with the recommendations in the Parker Report. We hope to be in a position, when the order is laid, to answer at least the great bulk of the recommendations. Some may require a little longer time for study. We shall not delay any longer than necessary.
  Mr. Nigel Forman: The Government obviously set great store by reinforcing the, International Atomic Energy Agency and particularly its safeguards directorate. Therefore, will the Secretary of State give the House an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will back American efforts to see that the staffing on that side is substantially increased in the near future to cope with this additional international responsibility?
  Dr. Owen: Yes, we shall. We are prepared to take any measures in this area which are aimed at the common objective of reducing what we all believe to be a serious risk to the future of the whole world.
  Mr. Tom King: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that, on the question of the return of plutonium—this point was queried by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook)—the British Government reserve the right and have the power to determine in which form that fuel is returned?
  Dr. Owen: The Government have to be satisfied. It is a question not only of the relationship between the utilities and the BNFL but of the Government being satisfied.
  I should like to explain in more detail about international plutonium management. The statute of the IAEA includes a provision for the deposit with the agency of any excess quantity of plutonium in order to prevent stockpiling. There is also provision for the prompt return of plutonium to its owner under safeguards for use in research or in reactors. There are many details still to be discussed, but I attach a great deal of importance to this, and it is something that the Government have constantly pushed.
  Agreement has already been reached between the Governments of the United Kingdom, the Federal Republic of Germany, the Netherlands and Brazil that ally plutonium derived from Urenco low-enriched fuel supplied to Brazil would be stored in this way. We have not, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool suggested, colluded over the provision of reprocessing technology to Brazil. We are against it. But we have used our membership of Urenco positively to minimise any risks. I stress that the plutonium store will be under the physical protection of the host Government.
  The danger of proliferation concerns not only possible diversion of material to weapons programmes by Governments but the possible seizure of weapons-usable material by terrorist groups. I criticised the stowaway version of indefinite storage as meaning the continuing growth of stores of irradiated fuel containing un-recovered plutonium which, with the passage of time, would become more accessible.
  The same criticism cannot be made of plutonium stores for two reasons. The volume of material to be protected is less than one-twentieth of the volume of irradiated fuel. The proposal is that these stores should be associated with reprocessing plants which must continue to be the most carefully protected of all civil nuclear installations. While the plutonium is in store, it will be safe. When it is to be returned to its owner, one of the provisions of its return is that it should continue to be properly protected.
  It is during the journey between store and owner that it is vulnerable. It is for

  1671
  this reason that many speakers have rightly laid stress on the need to determine the best form in which to return the plutonium. Japan has accepted that this matter should be resolved by the two Governments.
  Aside from the particular case, nobody intends to ship large quantities of plutonium metal around the world. Consideration is constantly being given to how it can most safely be shipped. It may be that it should be in the form of mixed plutonium/uranium oxide or it may be that it should be in the form of fabricated fuel element, possibly combined with a source of radiation which would offer its own lethal protection against any unauthorised opening of the container. There is no one magic solution to all this, and other possible options remain open to us which will be examined very seriously.
  The physical protection of nuclear material against terrorism is a major matter of concern. The IAEA has published its recommendations on the physical protection of nuclear material. The Nuclear Suppliers Group has made public its recommendations, which are almost identical with those of the IAEA. Negotiations are taking place for the preparation of an international convention on the physical protection of nuclear material. It is a difficult subject for international agreement. Physical protection is basically a matter of police and security measures, and this is an area in which Governments are reluctant to surrender their national sovereignty or, indeed, to disclose in detail what they are doing.
  Many hon. Members have raised the fundamental question which underlies some of this subject—civil liberties and how one both protects the community and protects the rights of the citizen. But as nuclear trade involves movement from one country to another, there is need for the closest possible agreement between governments on how the material will be protected while in transit, whose responsibility it is to afford that protection, and what action will be taken should anything go wrong.
  The protection afforded to nuclear material in transit varies according to the type and quantity of the material involved, and the protection varies in character. In some cases armed guards
  1672
  are necessary. In other cases massive containers offer their own protection. I have already explained that by selecting the most appropriate chemical form it is possible to ensure that the material being shipped would prove to be of little or no value if it were stolen.
  I do not wish to hide the gravity of the problem. Equally, I do not, for obvious reasons, wish to disclose too many details. Several hon. Members have commented that the Parker Report was rather short on this subject, recognising that the reason was that if one starts revealing to the rest of the world the counter-terrorist measures one is taking, it will not be long before the terorists come up with some new ruse or a new way of dealing with this whole problem.
  We have had a thorough and extremely interesting debate about all aspects of our nuclear power programme in future years, and on some of the more central questions relating to nuclear proliferation. I have made clear to the House that there are differences of view. There are differences of view among many Governments, and differences of emphasis. I have been quite honest about the differences of view between the United States Government and ourselves. As one who, as the House knows, supports the United States on many issues, I am not afraid openly to acknowledge the fact when I think that they have been wrong.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs (St. Helens)Mr. Leslie Spriggs (St. Helens) rose—
  Dr. Owen: However, I believe that there is a probability that, as the debate continues over the next few years, there will be a gradual growing together and convergence of view on this issue. Scientific opinion in all countries is divided on many of the questions involved. There is not a single scientific view in the United States any more than there is a single scientific view in this country.
  Our task is to try to exercise the best judgment we can make on what is a highly technical and scientific problem [HON. MEMBERS: "Why in such a hurry?"] There is no hurry. I urge hon. Members, who take a serious view of these matters, to hesitate before they say that we are in a hurry. My right hon. Friend was criticised by many people for insisting that there be the fullest inquiry and that this procedure should

  1673
  take place. There was a delay, and rightly there was a delay. The fact is that the House has been able, through a process of open consultation, to be involved prior to the decision being taken. I believe that this is something of which we can be proud, conscious that
  the House and our democratic processes are capable of adapting themselves to the technological society in which we live.
  Question put, That this House do now adjourn:—
  The House divided: Ayes 56, Noes 186.

  Division No. 153

  AYES

  [10.59 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Grist, Ian

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Bain, Mrs Margaret

  Henderson, Douglas

  Ryman, John

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Sillars, James

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Spearing, Nigel

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Stainton, Keith

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Canavan, Dennis

  Kinnock, Neil

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Lee, John

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Corbett, Robin

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Thompson, George

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

  Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

  Madden, Max

  Whltehead, Phillip

  Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  Mendelson, John

  Whitlock, William

  Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Flannery, Martin

  Molloy, William

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Ovenden, John

  Freud, Clement

  Pardoe, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Gould, Bryan

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Mr. Frank Hooley and

  Gow Ian (Eastbourne)

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  Mr. David Penhaligon.

  NOES

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Eadie, Alex

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Arnold, Tom

  Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

  Knox, David

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

  Emery, Peter

  Lamborn, Harry

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  English, Michael

  Lamond, James

  Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Lawson, Nigel

  Bates, Alf

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Benyon, W.

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  Luard, Evan

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Farr, John

  Luce, Richard

  Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Forrester, John

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Brooke, Peter

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  McElhone, Frank

  Brotherton, Michael

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Macfarlane, Nell

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  MacGregor, John

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

  George, Bruce

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Gilbert, Dr John

  Maclennan, Robert

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Campbell, Ian

  Goodhew, Victor

  Marks, Kenneth

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushclitfe)

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Mates, Michael

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

  Gray, Hamish

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Meacher, Michael

  Coleman, Donald

  Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Cope, John

  Hannam, John

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Costain, A. P.

  Hardy, Peter

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Cryer, Bob

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Moate, Roger

  Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Monro, Hector

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Horam, John

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Huckfield, Les

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Deakins, Eric

  Hunter, Adam

  Moyle, Roland

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Hurd, Douglas

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd)

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

  John, Brynmor

  Neubert, Michael

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Dolg, Peter

  Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

  Osborn, John

  Dormand, J. D.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Dunlop, John

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Dunnett, Jack

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Perry, Ernest

  Durant, Tony

  Judd, Frank

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Radice, Glles

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Rooker, J. W.

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Ward, Michael

  Roper, John

  Stoddart, David

  Warren, Kenneth

  Scott-Hopkins, Jamep

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  White, James (Pollok)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Strang, Gavin

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Sever, John

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Shepherd, Colin

  Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Shersby, Michael

  Tebbitt, Norman

  Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Temple Morris, Peter

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

  Tinn, James

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Tomlinson, John

  Woodall, Alec

  Silvester, Fred

  Urwin, T. W.

  Woof, Robert

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Snape, Peter

  Viggers, Peter

  Mr. Ted Graham and

  Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Mr. Joseph Harper.

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Question accordingly negatived.

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY TRADE WITH CYPRUS
  11.10 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Frank Judd): I beg to move,
  That this House takes note of Commission document No. S/2066/77 on trade with Cyprus.
  Mr. Speaker: I have selected the amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price).
  Mr. Judd: This document, which the Select Committee on European Legislation recommended on 8th February for early debate, is a draft regulation providing for interim autonomous Community tariff concessions on imports of certain agricultural produce from Cyprus pending conclusion of the negotiations with Cyprus.
  In opening this debate, I propose to deal with the Community's negotiations with Cyprus as a whole. First, I should set those negotiations in their historical context. Prior to the United Kingdom accession to the Community, Cyprus, like other Commonwealth countries, enjoyed virtually duty-free access to the United Kingdom market. Upon our accession, those Commonwealth concessions were subsumed in Cyprus's case in a transitional protocol to the association agreement that the Community and Cyprus had negotiated shortly before United Kingdom accession.
  The association agreement provided for two stages in the trade relations between the Community and Cyprus, the first terminating, like the transitional protocol, on 30th June 1977, and the second, in principle, five years later. Neither side was in the event ready to move to stage II of the agreement on 30th June 1977. There was no problem about agreeing the principle of extending stage I up to 31st December 1979 and about the terms to apply to industrial trade until then. It has, however, proved much more difficult to reach agreement on the successor arrangements to the transitional protocol as regards agricultural trade.
  It was accepted by all parties concerned in these negotiations that the United Kingdom transitional period
  1678
  being over, there could be no question of simply extending the transitional protocol. There had to be a Community-wide agreement.
  The United Kingdom position from the outset has been that any new Community-wide agreement must protect Cyprus' traditional trade in agricultural produce with the United Kingdom. This means that we have supported Cyprus's request for better treatment than the Community's other Mediterranean associates. It is important here to recall that the Community, in 1972, adopted what is called the overall Mediterranean approach. Under this, a set of similar trade agreements has been negotiated with most of the developing countries in the Mediterranean region. Since most of these countries export agricultural produce similar to that of the Community's own Mediterranean producers, the concessions on such produce under the overall Mediterranean approach have not been as generous as those granted on industrial products.
  Some of our partners in the Community have taken the line that the treatment to be given to Cyprus, now that the United Kingdom transitional period is over, should be closely aligned with that given to other Mediterranean associates under the overall Mediterranean approach.
  There has naturally been some very hard bargaining within the Community to try to marry the two sets of interests. I have myself repeatedly stressed at a series of Council discussions in Cyprus that Cyprus must be treated as a special case and must not be treated on the basis of the overall Mediterranean approach. Political considerations alone make this essential. The events of 1974 left the island with a ravaged economy, which needs careful tending if the island is to prosper again. It must be in the political interests of the Community to see an improvement in the Cyprus economy. Otherwise, economic distress will combine with the already present political tensions in the island to create an extremely dangerous situation ripe for exploitation.
  If such distress were caused, the hand of those who would be only too glad to see Cyprus turn away from Western Europe would be considerably strengthened. Moreover, economic distress would be bound to complicate the search for a political settlement between the two communities. I have therefore taken any

  1679
  opportunity in the Council to emphasise that at a time when we are all saying in the Nine that we have an obligation to work for a political solution to the Cyprus problem, it would be a great mistake to add economic difficulties to the political uncertainties in the island.
  Mr. Christopher Price: My hon. Friend said earlier that last year neither the EEC nor Cyprus was in a position to come to an agreement. Will he confirm that principally it was the inability of the Council of Ministers to agree a mandate among itself that has caused the great delay in coming to any sort of agreement?
  Mr. Judd: I understand my hon. Friend's views. If he will bear with me I shall deal with that point.
  It is true that we must not overlook the fact that there is a genuine feeling in the Community that when we brought certain traditional relationships with us into the Community, periods of time were determined for us to make adjustments to membership, and for those like the Cypriots—who are dependent upon trade with us—to make their adjustments as well. We must understand that argument, but I have felt that it is not one to which we ourselves could yield. On the one hand we have Cyprus, a small country closely dependent upon the United Kingdom and with all kinds of problems of its own On the other we have the Community, talking about the need for a political solution in Cyprus and the importance of fulfilling its responsibilities to the Third world. It would have been completely unjust for the Community to see the Cyprus trade question solely from the angle of United Kingdom alignment with the Common Customs Tariff.
  Besides underlining these political and moral factors, we have urged the Community to make allowance for Cyprus's dependence on agriculture in general and on a small range of agricultural products in particular. While the overall Mediterranean approach may have been adequate for countries with a wide spread of products, for a country such as Cyprus concessions on standard Mediterranean approach terms would have caused severe economic hardship.
  1680
  For all these reasons we very strongly opposed the draft negotiating mandate discussed in the Community towards the end of last year, even though we were at that time completely isolated. The 40 per cent. concession in the mandate on potatoes—not applicable for a two-week period at the height of the exporting season—was completely inadequate. The timetable for tariff concessions on grapes and carrots made these concessions virtually worthless No provision was made to help Cyprus's newly developed early vegetables trade.
  At the November Council I expressed deep concern that the proposed offer would leave Cyprus considerably worse off I stressed our view that past trade between Cyprus and the Community, including the United Kingdom should be the starting point for deciding concessions and not Community concessions to other Mediterranean producers. I also stressed the fact that for various reasons Cyprus was in a different category from other Mediterranean associates.
  I regret to inform the House that at that time these arguments met with virtually nil response. Our partners would not consider improving the offer. It became clear that if we maintained our reserve the negotiations with Cyprus would be delayed with possibly even more serious adverse consequences for Cyprus's agricultural exports. We therefore lifted our reserve to allow the negotiations to start and the Cypriots themselves to have their say. We hope that in the subsequent discussions the validity of our case would sink in.
  In the event it was not possible to complete the negotiations in time for a new agreement to come into force on 1st January. It was therefore agreed at the December Council that there was no alternative to applying the Community's offer on an interim autonomous basis pending conclusion of the negotiations. Fortunately this was not damaging to Cyprus to any great extent since the bulk of Cypriot produce is exported in the second and third quarters of the year.
  I am glad to say that since then tangible improvements have been achieved in the Community's offer. Following two rounds of negotiations with the Cypriots and numerous discussions within the

  1681
  Community in which we pressed vigorously for improvements, agreement was reached at the March Council on a new offer which went considerably beyond the first offer, and beyond what the Community had hitherto offered to its Mediterranean associates under the overall approach.
  Whereas other Mediterranean associates of the Community have been granted a 40 per cent. tariff reduction on potatoes, coupled with a timetable excluding their main producing season, Cyprus was offered a 65 per cent. reduction in the 1978 season and 55 per cent. in 1979, with a timetable that includes their main exporting season.
  On grapes, compared with a 50 per cent. off-season concession under the overall Mediterranean approach, Cyprus is offered a 60 per cent. tariff reduction covering the first half of the export season. The concessions on citrus—80 per cent. on grapefruit, the main citrus export, 60 per cent. on oranges and 40 per cent. on lemons—are not quite as good as those for the Maghreb countries, which enjoy an 80 per cent. reduction on all citrus products, but are the same as those granted to Israel and the Mashraq countries.
  Mr. Peter Emery: I listened with particular interest to the Minister's statement about the increase in the concessions, but when I looked at the draft legislation S/2066/77, I found that these concessions were not listed. Therefore, the concessions that the Minister has detailed are not before the House, and that places us in a difficult situation. Perhaps the Minister could tell the House what reduction in the total value of exports of Cyprus the Foreign Office considers the original concessions would bring about, and the reduced effect caused by those which he has outlined, and which are not before us tonight. We saw the possibility of a reduction in trade in the percentages that are before the House. How much will this position be alleviated by the concessions that the Minister has obtained?
  Mr. Judd: We shall do the detailed mathematical calculations, and my right hon. Friend will deal with this matter when he winds up the debate. It is not possible to have all the details before the House because the situation has not yet been finalised.
  1682
  The concessions on carrots and various early vegetables also go well beyond those offered under the overall Mediterranean approach.
  I must be candid with the House. There are elements in the offer which both we and the Cypriots consider deficient. We would obviously have preferred the percentage tariff reductions for all products to be higher, particularly on potatoes. We also dislike the provision in the agreement for reductions in certain tariff concessions and quotas from one year to the next. In our view this contradicts the philosophy of the association agreement, under which stage II is supposed to provide for more liberalisation.
  Because of our doubts on this score we have obtained a formal understanding within the Community that the terms offered do not anticipate in any way the arrangements to be adopted after stage I of the agreement expires on 31st December 1979.
  We are also not entirely happy about the division of the offer into two protocols. There is to be one protocol embodying those concessions which fall within what have been hitherto the limits of the overall Mediterranean approach, and a second protocol containing those extra concessions which are being granted to Cyprus in token of its special situation. While the Community's explicit recognition of Cyprus' special circumstances is welcome, we should have preferred to avoid a formula implying the existence of rigid limits for the overall Mediterranean approach. We have had to bear in mind, however, the concern of other member States lest precedents be set for other Mediterranean agreements.
  The current situation is that the offer has been put to the Cypriots who are in principle ready to accept it. They are not ready to initial the agreement, however, until it is clear that, pending its entry into force after the completion of all the formalities, its provisions will be applied autonomously by the Community. This in turn depends on the Commission putting forward proposals for a satisfactory autonomous regime and the member States accepting it.
  A complication arises in this connection, in that one member State is making a connection between the implementation in the autonomous measures of the special concessions on new potatoes and progress

  1683
  towards the establishment of an internal Community regime for this product. We in the British Government believe that it is inconceivable that the concessions which have in principle been agreed with the Cypriots should not be applied in full as soon as possible. We are pressing this matter very hard indeed in Brussels and bilaterally to see that it is satisfactorily resolved.
  In weighing up the pros and cons of the proposed agreement, it is important to remember that it will be an interim two-year agreement designed to take us up to stage II of the association agreement. My hon. Friends have helpfully underlined this point in their amendment.
  There is a small inaccuracy in the amendment which. I ought to note for the record. It was in fact the agricultural chapter of stage I of the association agreement which expired in June 1977, and not the association agreement itself. This small point apart, the Government are fully in agreement with the spirit of the amendment and intend to base their policy towards the negotiation of stage TI upon the considerations mentioned in that amendment.
  However, the negotiations on stage II, which should began in a year or so, are likely to be tough. In those negotiations all possible emphasis must be laid on the agreement reached in 1972 that stage II would usher in greater liberalisation. By the time of ale negotiations the general Mediterranean picture should of course be clearer. At the moment there are too many complicating factors—pending reviews of the Maghreb agreement, negotiations with Spain, discussions within the Community on a package of measures to bring about structural improvements in the Community's own Mediterranean agriculture and, of course, the prospect of enlargement.
  But, above all, it will be vital for the Cypriots and ourselves to keep close together at the time of the resumed negotiations. In so far as this proposed new agreement tides Cyprus over the next two years in a way which, despite its drawbacks, is unlikely to lead to serious disruption of traditional trade between Cyprus and the United Kingdom, I think it is reasonable to claim that, if it is implemented, we shall have achieved in the negotiations as satisfactory an out-
  1684
  come as we could realistically have hoped to achieve, bearing in mind the conflicting interests that have clearly existed. But—this is not an insignificant proviso—everything depends on its satisfactory implementation by the Community.
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Hurd (Mid-Oxon): The House will be grateful to the Minister of State for that very clear explanation of a complicated position. Obviously, we also pay tribute to his hard work through many meetings to secure a result which is satisfactory for the interests of this country and of the Republic of Cyprus and, I believe, in the long term, of the Community. Nevertheless, I think that we cannot be entirely happy at the story which is unfolded in his speech and in the documents before us.
  The Republic of Cyprus has a number of claims on our respect and consideration. It is a Commonwealth country whose economy, through no fault of its own, has to a large extent been moulded to fit the British market. This, as in the case of New Zealand, is an historical fact which the British Government ought to and does take into account. It also means that the British housewife has an interest in the matter, particularly when the exporting season opens in the spring and early summer.
  But, more important, it is a country—the Minister touched on this—which has had peculiar misfortunes and disruptions in the last three or four years. It must be a necessary act of statesmanship on the part of the Community to look at that situation, as the Minister of State very fairly did in his speech, and to say that it is in the interest of Europe to temper the wind to Cyprus.
  If we are concerned with stability in the eastern Mediterranean, and seriously trying to resolve, with the help of the Community, the political problems of that area, a decent economic arrangement for the Republic of Cyprus is an important part of it, but this consideration is not what the Republic of Cyprus has received over the last few months.
  First, there has been delay. I know that this is not peculiar to Cyprus. It is perfectly understandable that the Community finds enormous difficulty in reaching agreement within itself on the terms which the Commission is empowered to

  1685
  negotiate with third countries. But this is a particularly bad example of delay.
  The first phase of the association agreement expired on 30th June last year, but the Community was not ready to negotiate the next phase, so there was a six months' interim arrangement covering the period from July to December last year. But even that was not signed until 15th September. Now we are nearly at the end of March and yet there is no agreement within the Community, as the Minister of State made clear, for the arrangements which are designed to cover the two-year period, which is already three months old.
  At each stage we have this story of delay. That is the price we pay in the Community for the unanimity rule. Nothing can be done until everyone is in agreement. In consequence, the Community has so far found it very difficult to conduct smoothly its relations with outside countries. Member States—we have been guilty of the same practice on occasion—seek to bring into consideration extraneous matters which concern their own interests but which are not immediately or largely relevant to the negotiation with the outside country, in this case the Republic of Cyprus. That has happened here, and it has postponed over and over again the moment when the Community can say to the Republic of Cyprus "This is what we are prepared to offer."
  The Community will not succeed in what is probably at the moment its most important single task—facing the outside world and negotiating with the outside world on behalf of the Community's economic interests—until member States are shamed out of bringing in these rather narrow nationalist points to hold up the negotiations.
  I hope that in this case it is possible that we are near the end of this road. It sounded from the Minister as if that were so. But undoubtedly there has also been a certain clumsiness, which is illustrated in the arrangements described in the document before us.
  I do not make a great point out of the tact that this document is out of date, but my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) was right to draw attention to this fact. This is the fault of our
  1686
  scrutiny procedures rather than the fault of the Government or the Community. This happens when we have negotiations which are moving all the time. We are subject to rather legalistic procedures, and have at a certain stage to take a photographic view of the situation. The Scrutiny Committee identifies a document, and, two months later, we debate that document.
  This document from the Commission, proposing a temporary arrangement, shows a certain insensitivity to the needs of the situation. The Minister of State explained that the Government opposed these proposals fairly strongly, and with some success.
  There is one point that I should like to raise. I do not know whether the Minister of State can deal with it, but I hope that the Government will consider it. When drafting this kind of document, what kind of advice does the Commission receive on the situation in Cyprus, or the reaction from Cyprus? It has no Foreign Office. It does not have diplomats. How does it get its information?
  This is a highly political document, which got the thing wrong. We need to know how the Commission gets its information. I am not questioning the competence of the officials who drafted the document, because I know that they have an enormous task—a far-flung task—which, on the whole, they are beginning to do quite well. But there is a lack of sensitivity about the document. Do the officials receive political reports from the embassies or high commissions of member States? How do they get their input, or their political feeling for a situation?
  If they do not get an adequate feeling for a situation from the permanent representatives or elsewhere they are bound to produce rather clumsy and insensitive documents of this kind. This is an important matter, and I hope that the Foreign Office Ministers will return to it and let us know their thinking about it.
  We have the delay, and we have the clumsiness. This leads to a major issue that goes beyond the question of Cyprus. I welcome the fact that now, on the whole, it is the European Community which negotiates on behalf of this country and the other eight in deciding and settling the framework of international

  1687
  trade. Indeed, I believe that this is the most important development of the European Community since we joined it. It is of great importance to millions of workers in this country that these international negotiations whether with the Third world, the textile exporters or the steel exporters, are now conducted on behalf of this country by the largest trading group in the world.
  We have the strength of a giant as a Community, but it is not alway sensible to use that strength. This is a case in which it should not have been used in the kind of way in which, in the beginning, it was used. The Community is at the stage of working out this procedure, but the story that the Minister of State told us shows that the Community has not yet got the experience or the machinery to carry out this job smoothly.
  Diplomacy—and we are talking about diplomacy—is a matter of protecting one's own interests while accurately gauging the legitimate interests of others, and in this case it is not in our interest to drive too hard a bargain. I hope that the Community—with prodding, where necessary, from the Government—will look again at its machinery for making these sensitive calculations. This is one example, but there are many others going on at this moment in all parts of the world. It is immensely important that the Community should be able to negotiate smoothly and effectively, not just for an immediate or short-term advantage but for the long-term interests of Europe which, in this case, are obviously connected with the prosperity and stability of the Republic of Cyprus.
  11.40 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Price: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add:
  "notes, however, that the present agricultural agreement between the European Economic Community and Cyprus is a temporary one, pending an extension of the Association Agreement which expired in June 1977; and urges the Government to press for the conclusion of a permanent agreement as soon as possible which takes more account of both the economic problems of Cyprus and the need to secure the United Kingdom's traditional supplies of agricultural products from Cyprus, especially potatoes".
  The amendment is in the names of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs.
  1688
  Jeger) and I suspect that it is supported by many hon. Members on both sides of the House. We would have been able to get many more signatures to the amendment if the Government had not put down their motion at such a late stage.
  I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of the present position and the House should thank him for the doughty battles into which he has put his heart, mind and soul, month by month over the past nine months. Initially, he was in a minority of one, but eventually he had the agreement of eight member States.
  I also offer my thanks and sympathy to the hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd). It must be difficult for those who used to be Euro-fanatics to try to explain the problems caused by the EEC, but we welcome support from wherever it comes.
  My interest in Cyprus started when, somewhat against my expectations, I was put on the Select Committee on Cyprus and I began to understand some of the severe problems facing the island. My interest increased when, after one of those elections in which one does not expect to succeed, I was sent to the European Assembly. I have now left, feeling that it is not the most sensible institution in which to spend much of one's time, but while I was there I was appointed rapporteur on Cyprus and I discovered again the severe problems facing the island and the extent to which they are exacerbated by the association agreement signed with the EEC.
  The agreement was signed in the expectation that it would develop Cyprus's economic links with the Community and would lead to lower tariff barriers. In the event, the association has had exactly the opposite effect and has led to raised tariff barriers.
  I join the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) in his complaints about the document. Not only is it three months old—and it is possible to get more up-to-date documents in the House if we concentrate on EEC debates—but a section of the "Translation" reads:
  "Il s'agit de remplacer le régime 'Commonwealth' (droits zero ou très faibles) sur les marchés britannique et irlandais."
  and so on. The House has rules about the language in which documents are presented and they should be in English

  1689
  —even if it is English gobbledegook—and not in French. Despite my accent, I have great regard for the French language, but documents presented to the House should be in English. That is a matter which the Government might like to note the next time they present EEC documents to the House.
  My hon. Friend the Minister said that in June 1977, when the first stage of the association agreement ran out, neither side was ready to renew it. He knows that the Council of Europe was in no position—and had not been in a position for the previous nine months—to agree a mandate under which negotiations could begin. The responsibility for the delay in renewing the association agreement rests solely with the Council of Ministers. The Republic of Cyprus had entered into the agreement with the EEC in good faith that the Community meant what is said, but Cyprus was conned. When it came to the renewal of that agreement, that could not take place because the Council of Ministers had not the political will to get on with the job. That is where the responsibility lies, and we should say so.
  When our entry into the EEC was being negotiated, a great deal was said about the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement and the problems which the people of the West Indies might suffer. A great deal was also said about our friends in New Zealand and their problems. But in all these negotiations, because they were wide and global and because one could not take in everything, the problems of agricultural exports—problems which would inevitably crop up when the five-year transition agreement came to an end—were overlooked, and indeed forgotten.
  We are now facing the results of the dereliction of duty by the Conservative Government in not having envisaged the problems that would inevitably arise at the end of the transition agreement. No account was taken of that aspect, and we are now having to face up to their failure to think about these matters five year ago.
  It is fair to point out that when in 1972 the Republic of Cyprus signed this association agreement it looked forward to a reduction of tariffs with the EEC. Because of the running out of Common-
  1690
  wealth preference on 31st December this year, Cyprus has instead suffered a massive increase in tariffs in a year which happens to be the most difficult year for the Republic.
  One is not arguing about the relative benefits to people in the North or South of the island. The EEC has made it clear that in all its relations with Cyprus since the first signing of the association agreement any agreements signed between the EEC and Cyprus shall be of equal benefit to both communities in the island. We are not conducting the normal argument over Cyprus involving the position of Greeks and Turks, but in this case we are dealing with the relative priority which the EEC accords to the island of Cyprus as a whole.
  My hon. Friend said that he wanted to set the issue in the correct context and against the right background. The context and background this year is that, although we all agree that Cyprus suffered massive disruptions in 1974, the remarkable thing is that in the years since then she has been able to stave off economic collapse—particularly in the South of Cyprus—as a result of the heroic efforts of her people. In only one sense they were lucky. A total of 40 per cent. of Cyprus's exports depend on the potato harvest and for two years Europe had comparatively bad potato harvests while Cyprus had good harvests. The relative prices benefited the island so that, with a nil tariff under the transitional agreement, it was able to sustain its economy and had a somewhat lower rate of inflation than almost any other country in Europe.
  This year the position is reversed, with Europe having had a good potato harvest and Cyprus a bad one. I mention potatoes because, although other agricultural products are important, potatoes are central to the economy of the island. The original 40 per cent. reduction offered to Cyprus was not only mean but ludicrous. It meant that there was little chance of Cyprus selling its potatoes anywhere.
  In talking of trade between Cyprus and the EEC we are talking of a fiction. Cyprus trades not with the EEC but with the United Kingdom. If we look at the quota arrangements in this document it will be seen that there are minuscule quotas to the Eight and massive quotas

  1691
  to Britain. Although technically we are talking about trade between Cyprus and the EEC, we are really talking about the price of potatoes, grapes and sherry, and other agriculutral products, for the British housewife, not for the French, German or Italian housewives.
  I congratulate my hon. Friend on achieving the turn-round in the Council of Ministers and getting it to produce a greater tariff reduction than was originally offered. I warn him that even this tariff reduction to 65 per cent. and 55 per cent. for products of Cyprus makes it doubtful whether this will produce the price which makes it reasonable for the age-old trading relationships between Cyprus and the United Kingdom to continue. It is worth mentioning that the Cypriots have always co-operated with Britain in the potato trade, especially with the Potato Marketing Board. Over the years Cyprus has provided Britain with new potatoes in the months before our own arrive. She has behaved in a totally responsible way.
  What the EEC calls a reduction in tariff is a massive increase in tariff over that for the previous year. It is a disruption of a traditional trade with Britain which has provided Britain with a ready supply of agricultural produce. That trade has continued over many years, but it is now being disrupted purely by our entry to the EEC. What I say about potatoes applies in large respect to fresh grapes, carrots and other agricultural products which Cyprus has attempted to continue to supply in its trade with Britain.
  The Cypriots are willing to be flexible. They say "If you feel that the market is glutted with potatoes, what about aubergines? Our market is extremely flexible." The EEC says "No" to aubergines, and the Cypriots go right through the whole agricultural market. The truth is that the EEC is so protectionist, is so inward-looking and so determined to protect its own small farmers, who have their problems, that in present economic circumstances it does not want to know about the problems of small countries such as Cyprus. Its trade with the EEC is quite miniscule in terms of Europe as a whole, although the economic relations between Cyprus and Europe are a matter of life and death, a
  1692
  matter of economic survival or economic collapse, for the Cypriots.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Oxon asked how the Commission gets its political information. The hon. Gentleman asked an astute question. The Commission is often derided as being an enormous bureaucracy. It is a terrible bureaucracy but it is not an enormous one; it has its problems about getting political information.
  I do not often co-operate with the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Spicer), but we happen to sit on opposite sides of the European Assembly and he and I have done quite a bit in attempting to introduce officials of the Commission to the realities of the problems of Cyprus. I do not say much for the Assembly. I am not especially keen on it. I do not think that it is a very sensible body. However, it was useful in our attempt to try to drag the officialdom of the Commission deep into the reality of problems of Cyprus. If I did anything during my slightly useless year at the Assembly, I suspect that that is the one thing that I helped in doing.
  My hon Friend says that one nation of the Nine still has reservations about the problem. It seems that he has problems in naming nations. It may be that the Opposition share that problem. That is because they think that they will have my hon. Friend's problems in the near future, although I suspect that they will not. However, it is well known throughout Europe that the Italians have been making it a principle that they will behave, if I may say so, in a Silkin-like way about European agriculture until they get their way over certain fundamental principles that they want to operate in their favour. In a sense, I do not blame them. That is the Euro game. That is what produces the arthritic stalemate that is now Europe—the business of everybody having a veto if he so choses to play the game produces that stalemate. I do not blame the Italians. The fault lies with the machinery that now exists in Europe.
  I understand that the Italians are quite willing to go ahead with the arrangements so long as they can get certain compensatory amounts. I am told that 3 million or 4 million units of account are involved, which in the European budget

  1693
  is a tiny sum. I am told that the nation which objects to making the compromise is not Italy but Germany. That is the compromise of paying a compensatory amount for the loss that might occur to the Italian potato exporters. They say "We must not erode this principle. We must not have any more of these compensatory amounts". There is plenty of precedent. I am told that Guadeloupe pineapples have been established as a principle under which compensation is made to a country which suffers as a resuit of an external agreement of this kind being made.
  My hon. Friend said that one nation was creating problems. I suspect that there are wheels within wheels within wheels in this problem. We are up against the idiotic veto upon veto upon veto within the EEC, in the nexus of which the poor Cypriots have got absolutely entwined and do not seem to be able to escape.
  Europe offends the Cypriots at its peril in a political as well as an economic sense. My hon. Friend hinted at that in his speech. The Cypriots are immensely resourceful and inventive. If European markets are denied to them, there are other directions in the world in which they can go. There are the Arab and the Eastern European countries.
  Political parties in Cyprus have consistently argued against an association agreement. They have argued that Europe was not a good market for the Cypriots and that they should seek their markets elsewhere. If the sole objective of the EEC had been to turn Cyprus away from its orientation with Europe and towards other directions, it need not have acted otherwise than it did in terms of its economic negotiations with Cyprus. If Cyprus should finally decide that Europe is so protectionist, peevish and nasty in its economic relations and that its future lies elsewhere, the political implications for the future of the Middle East are substantial. We should realise that in all these issues there is a connection between economics and politics. If Europe continues to fiddle around, a turn-round in the Middle East could take place which the Nine could bitterly regret in future
  I think that historians looking at the relationship between the EEC and Cyprus as a case study will be amazed by the way
  1694
  in which the nine powerful nations of Europe argued among themselves and nit-picked within the legalities of the rules of the EEC about a few potatoes, a few fresh grapes and a few carrots which might be exported from an island which had been devastated by war and a refugee problem which would be quite intolerable to any of the Nine. It is a case study of the pettiness of the EEC in 1978.
  I know that the negotiations are not yet complete. But, if all goes sour in the end, the EEC will have only itself to blame for having done not only economic damage to Cyprus and to the British housewife but grave political damage to the situation in the Middle East.
  12.5 a.m.
  Mr. Peter Emery: Even if I do not endorse all his arguments in moving the amendment, the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) has my assurance that I am in complete agreement with the amendment, and I am more than pleased that the Government have indicated that that is overall their general view as well.
  I am a little sorry that the Minister of State was not able to weave into his opening speech a little more about the long-term political solution in Cyprus. I know that he has had a close connection with that matter, having recently visited the island, and I am sure that the House would have enjoyed an opportunity to hear his views. Perhaps we shall have another occasion when we can question him about that.
  Although, as I say, I am basically in agreement with the hon. Member for Lewisham, West, I cannot accept it when he says—I think that these were his words—that after the enlargement of the Community Cyprus was overlooked and forgotten for about five years. I accept a later condemnation which he expressed, but I think that initially, when people saw that the amount of Cypriot agricultural input into the enlarged Community was so small—such a drop in the bucket—they could not believe that there would be all this trouble during the period of association. I must say that I am very discouraged to find that the Community has been so difficult in dealing with what is a vital matter for the economic structure of this small island.

  1695
  I asked whether the Minister of State could tell us of the effect on the economy, and I wanted that information because certain figures have been put to me. I have no means of knowing whether this is correct, but I am given to understand that the tariff structure now proposed is likely to mean a reduction in sales to the EEC of anything between 25 and 33 per cent. of last year's exports into the Community. If those figures are right, that is a disastrous prospect for the Cypriot economy. Moreover, if they are right, Europe has a heavy burden to bear in pursuing the regulation now before us.
  I come now to one or two matters of detail. First, is the 12·6 per cent. tariff reduction on new potatoes shown in Article 2 still 12·6 per cent. or has that been negotiated up as the 40 per cent. has been negotiated up to 60 per cent.?
  Next, I should like to have an explanation of something which I cannot understand. In the box at the top of page 8—this also is Article 2—we read:
  "New potatoes:
  (b) From 16th May to 30th June",
  and then immediately underneath are the words:
  "From 16th May to 15th June".
  What the devil does that mean? Is it 30th June or 15th June? It seems incomprehensible to me.
  Next, although Britain's dominance of the trade is right, I believe that the hon. Member for Lewisham, West slightly over-estimated that, as he will see from Article 2 and the products there involved—vegetables, fresh or chilled, and new potatoes. The initial allocation is 60 per cent. to Britain but 40 per cent. to the rest of the Community, which, after all, is quite a lot.
  The division in Article 2(2) applies to the first tranche. Is the second tranche, which is the much greater amount of 27,000 tons, to be divided in the same way? That is not slated and it is impossible to determine.
  May I make the appeal I make about all legislation, whether domestic or European? May we have an end to the gobbledegook? I challenge any hon. Member to explain to me Article 6(1), which reads
  "If 90 per cent or more of a Member State's initial share—as fixed in Articles 2 to 5—or
  1696
  of that share minus any portion returned to the corresponding reserve, where Article 8 has been applied, has been used up, that Member State shall forthwith, by notifying the Commission, draw a second share, to extent that the reserve so permits, equal to 15 per cent. of its initial share, rounded off upwards to the next whole number, if necessary."
  I defy anyone to tell me what that means. The succeeding paragraphs are equally nonsensical. These regulations have to be interpreted by ordinary traders who are importers. It is important that they should not have to go to their lawyers to find out what they mean.
  The whole matter of the relief of tariffs is unsatisfactory. More should have been done. I hope that the Government will press ahead on this as strongly as they have in the past and ensure that a greater concession is gained for Cyprus, otherwise we shall see a steady reduction in this operation. Taken within the context of the whole EEC agricultural trade, this is just a drop in the bucket. We should be generous and help these people.
  12.12 a.m.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: I agree very much with the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price). In the period from 1973 to 1977, EEC exports to Cyprus amounted to more than £560 million. Imports from Cyprus in the same period were only £310 million, giving the island a deficit of £250 million. Why is the EEC so frightened of Cyprus that it has to make these tariff threats and restrictions? This small island is struggling against enormous difficulties of all sorts from all sources, and it now has to face tariff restrictions from the EEC imposed to meet threats which do not exist.
  I shall concentrate on one aspect of the Cyprus economy. About 30 per cent. of the people are dependent for their livelihoods on the culture of vines. Anyone who knows the country will recollect how the terraced vineyards go up those dry slopes and how there is no alternative agriculture. It is important to remember when the EEC seeks to impose changes in the crops which certain areas grow that on this sort of terrain there is no alterative. The people of the island have grown these crops since Biblical times. I defy any agronomist to tell them that

  1697
  anything else will respond to that climate and that soil.
  About 30 per cent. of the people depend on the growing of vines, whether for table grapes, sherry or wine. I understand that there will be an increase of between 30p and 50p a bottle on Cyprus sherry, and that will have a serious effect on the market. Sherry accounts for about 90 per cent. of the total wine exports to the Community. Therefore, if there are unfavourable tariffs the whole industry will be in jeopardy. That will mean more unemployment in Cyprus and more poverty when a country which has suffered from invasion and all sorts of other difficulties is trying to get its economy going.
  I cannot see how it can be in the interests of the EEC to bring in any regulations or restrictions that would make it more difficult for the economy of Cyprus to survive. That cannot help trade between Cyprus and Europe. It can only increase the poverty of the people of Cyprus, and that will contribute to the poverty of the whole Middle East and in turn of the EEC, because of the reduced trading that will be possible. The same applies to the export of table grapes. Again, I emphasise that there is no alternative agriculture.
  I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for all that he has done. I realise that he has had a tough battle. Does not the EEC appreciate that it is trying to make a relationship with an impoverished, embattled, small island, which is fighting for its life? Nothing to do with the principles of friendship, co-operation and constructive thinking can apply if the EEC is to knock on the head with restrictions and tariffs this brave, small island, where the people are working and fighting not only to preserve their own livelihood but to live by their own work to export and to trade. Anything that impoverishes and restricts them in doing that is a disgrace to the EEC.
  12.18 a.m.
  Mr. Jim Spicer: I have a feeling that there is a rather unholy alliance between myself and the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) in this case. He is right in saying that over the past year we have worked and tried our hardest with the European
  1698
  Commission and the Community to see that proper treatment is afforded to the people of Cyprus.
  The Minister was absolutely right to say, in opening the debate, that Cyprus was a special case. He, with his special responsibilities, and indeed all of us, should be very concerned about the way in which the Community's Mediterranean policy has developed.
  What happens is that an agreement is signed—say, an association agreement with Turkey—and then it is followed by an agreement with the Maghreb countries, then with the Mashraq and then on to Israel, and on each move more concessions are given, so that those who are at the beginning of the agreement suddenly find that they have been outbid in every way. When we are dealing with the larger units there may be some case for that, but Cyprus is a special case, for many reasons. It is special because of its internal problems and special particularly because of its relationship in the past with the United Kingdom. Therefore, we have a bounden duty to support Cyprus all the way down the line, in defiance of anyone else within the Community who would seek to impose a lower tariff reduction on Cyprus than that on anywhere else.
  The hon. Member for Lewisham, West said that tonight we were talking only in terms of Cyprus and the people of Cyprus. That is absolutely right. I hope that no one will think that I am introducing a note of dissension or an additional problem when I say that I am a little concerned when we talk about the Republic of Cyprus. I fully accept and understand the legal situation with which we are faced, and that it is impossible to talk other than through the legal Government of Cyprus. But I am worried that the interests of the Turkish Cypriot minority in all these negotiations may be slightly overborne because they have no direct representation to either the Community or the United Kingdom Government and their representation has to be conducted, so to speak, around the back door.
  The Minister will know that I have quoted several instances to him in which that has operated to that minority's detriment. I am extremely worried that the people in the North of the island, the Turkish Cypriot area, are suffering far

  1699
  more hardship, because they are economically less viable than those in the South. We have seen in the last few days that they are being pressured all the time.
  I take just one instance that is relevant to the document we are debating, which mentions fruit juices. I have tried my best to help the re-establishment of a juice factory, owned by a neutral outside Famagusta, to process fruit juice which is now being wasted. Yet I know that the High Commissioner in London is doing all that he can to block any activity on these lines because he believes that that is in the interests of the Government of Cyprus as opposed to the Turkish Cypriot community.
  I can only say that I am in complete accord with the hon. Member for Lewisham, West when he says that we have to work in the interests of both communities in Cyprus. If we are to continue to do that, we must be assured that there will be even-handed treatment for the Turkish community as well, however, that is achieved.
  Our problem is that the Community may not, perhaps, understand this matter to the extent that we do. But unless we can give that same treatment to the Turkish Cypriot community, we shall make the achievement of a political settlement in Cyprus that much more difficult. I am sure that that is not in the interests of the Community, it is certainly not in the interests of the people of Cyprus as a whole, and above all—with our long and historic links with Cyprus—it is certainly not in the interests of the United Kingdom. We have a duty to fight for them all the way down the line.
  12.23 a.m.
  Mr. James Lamond: I do not know what you do for late-night reading, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but it is not my habit to read the documents that—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I always read the speeches that hon. Members have made the previous night, particularly those made after midnight.
  Mr. Lamond: I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that that is most enlightening. Perhaps I shall follow your example tomorrow.
  1700
  However, normally I leave the perusal of these documents in the safe hands of my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing), and I follow him into the Lobby if he happens to feel like calling a Division. I have never been let down yet.
  I have come to the House tonight because of my particular interest in Cyprus and the political position there. I wanted to see whether my hon. Friend the Minister of State had benefited in any way from his recent visit to that country. Tonight I am quite satisfied that he has fully understood the political position there. He is very sympathetic, in the same way as I am, towards the people of Cyprus. Therefore, I have no quarrel about that.
  Having gone to the Vote Office to obtain a copy of this document, and having tried to read it, I cannot agree with those hon. Members who praised my hon. Friend the Minister of State and said that he had made everything very clear. I have no doubt that he made it as clear as anyone possibly could. But in order to understand the matter completely, one would need to have had a pretty good idea of what it was all about even before the debate started.
  Several of my points have already been made. For example, there is one page in the document which is written in French. That does not help hon. Members like myself who are struggling at the French classes which are being held to assist us.
  Mrs. Jeger: It is also out of order.
  Mr. Lamond: Another matter concerns the dates given inside the box on page 8. I cannot understand that at all. I wonder whether the EEC thinks that no one will read these documents.
  There are pages of rates of reductions. But the document does not tell us what the tariff is to be. It tells us only by how much the tariff is to be reduced. The percentages that are shown are the percentage rates of reduction. They are all in round figures—40 per cent., 80 per cent., 60 per cent., 50 per cent.—except for one, which is 12·6 per cent. Why was that not made 10 per cent., 15 per cent., or even 12 per cent? A figure of 12·6 per cent. seems to be so much out of line with everything else shown in percentage form that it is difficult to understand.

  1701
  Having tried to wrestle with this document, I wish to put one question to my right hon. Friend who will shortly be winding up the debate. Does this document mean that, as a consequence of our going into the EEC, the price of new potatoes in my constituency will be higher than it would otherwise have been? My right hon. Friend should not take this matter lightly. About a year ago there was a lot of correspondence in the Oldham Chronicle, which raged for many weeks, about the price of potatoes. That topic certainly seemed to attract much more attention than many of the other things on which we speak in this House.
  12.28 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr E. S. Bishop): This has been a timely and useful debate, even though it has taken place at this hour. I have listened with great care and interest to the views of Opposition Members as well as those of my hon. Friends. There has been a fair degree of anxiety about the ties, both economic and of sentiment, that bind us to Cyprus. One does not have to visit Cyprus to know the kind of problems with which it is coping. There has been a very long friendship between our two countries.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd) rightly recalled the traditional place which Cyprus products have in our markets and the need to maintain that position. I endorse those comments. Such is the courage and resolution of the Cypriot people that they would not relish fulsome expressions of sympathy from us. We respect their pride and independent spirit. At the same time it is right to mention the keen awareness in this country that Cyprus is suffering formidable economic and political difficulties which stem from the happenings of 1974.
  These are unwelcome facts. They ought be taken into account in the construction of its future trading relationship with this country and the Community as a whole. Nothing should be done to worsen its position. We recognise that this is not the end of the road, or the end of the story, and that there is still some way to go. We should remember that Cyprus' traditional links are with this country and the West. It would be sad—more than
  1702
  that, it would be politically dangerous—if economic pressures were ever to weaken and perhaps sever those attachments. That is a point which my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) made.
  The House has expressed its deep concern for Cyprus and its anxiety for our traders and consumers who may be affected by the recently concluded EEC-Cyprus agreement. I do not pretend that what has been agreed is ideal. Far from it. Obstacles have been placed in the way of Cyprus's traditional agricultural trade with this country. These are unwelcome to her—as they are to us.
  But while we sympathise with Cyprus we should not forget that there are many producers within the Community whose economic condition is weak and who also deserve sympathetic consideration. But they are supported by able spokesmen, and it is up to us to underline some of the social and economic effects on Cyprus.
  I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Mid-Oxon for the way in which he opened the debate for the Opposition. Credit should be given to hon. Members on both sides of the House who have stayed tonight to express their sympathy with Cyprus.
  The hon. Members for Mid-Oxon and Honiton (Mr. Emery) made the point about some of the documents being out of date. Events move, and I am glad that they do. I think that we might be more concerned if the documents were always up to date. The fact that they are out of date means that some progress has been made. However, I accept that we have a duty to ensure that hon. Members have the necessary documents for consideration.
  Several hon. Members raised the point about the advice the Commission gets on political factors. The Commission has been in direct touch before and during the substantive negotiations. Member States offer opinions on the aims and needs of third countries. The wider remit must be taken into account, and this enables the Commission to form an opinion of the political situation in the country concerned. It is up to member States to show political awareness in amending the Commission's proposals. Tributes have been paid to the Minister

  1703
  of State for his work in ensuring that the links with Cyprus and that country's best interests are preserved.
  Close co-ordination is necessary during negotiations. We have been in close touch with the Cyprus Government throughout. The Prime Minister discussed the negotiations with President Kyprianou on the telephone, and the Minister of State discussed the negotiations with various Ministers and officials during his visit to Cyprus this month. Officials in Brussels have also kept in touch. I take the point that one should be aware of increasing the possibility of contacts with the Community in order to represent the interests of the Cypriot people.
  The hon. Member for Honiton raised the question of quantifying the improvement in the mandate. It is very difficult to say what the position would be if certain things had not happened. It is a changing situation. The original mandate would have cost the Cypriots about £5 million a year. I am afraid that no estimate is available of the degree of alleviation brought about by the revised offer. However, I can quote the hon. Member the relevant figures on the original mandate for new potatoes. Whereas the original mandate was a 40 per cent. concession in the reforms offered, the concession is 65 per cent. for 1978 and 55 per cent. for the latter part of 1979.
  The hon. Member also asked what the box entry at the top of page 8 means. It means that within the period 16th May to 30th June, for items in the common external tariff, the reduction would be 12·6 per cent. for the period 16th May to 15th June, and that in the mandate offered to the Cypriots, which has not yet been formally accepted, the rate of concession has been improved. If other aspects need clarification, perhaps I might write to the hon. Gentleman and others.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Jeger) claimed that this would add between 30p and 50p to a bottle of Cyprus sherry. In fact, the duty would raise the price of sherry by no more than a couple of pence a bottle and that of wine by about 1p a bottle. That should not significantly affect United Kingdom sales. Separate discussions on the reference price are already proceeding in the Community.
  1704
  The Commission says that it fully understands the special needs of Cyprus.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Lamond) and others asked about the traditional trade in potatoes. We take a substantial part of the Cyprus crop and early in the year we depend on this trade. Assuming an unchanged pattern of imports, the new tariff will add about 11 per cent. and 14 per cent. respectively to the import bill for Cyprus potatoes in 1978 and 1979. The retail trade is likely to be inhibited to some extent, but if the whole tariff increase is passed on to the consumer, we estimate that prices will rise by about 1p or 2p a pound. But I think that the Cypriots and the United Kingdom traders may try to absorb all or a portion of the increased cost. One wants to ensure that the trade is maintained as far as possible.
  We believe that the negotiations are satisfactory on sherry and light wine. There is an adequate quota and a substantial tariff reduction. The crucial question is the reference price, which remains to be settled.
  For citrus fruit there is a useful tariff reduction, which should help the Cypriots to maintain United Kingdom trade.
  The hon. Member for Honiton raised important points about alleviation reforms. This is still a useful concession on potatoes, and the quota covers approximately two-thirds of the supply. The tariff reduction is better than that conceded to other Mediterranean countries and the possible price rise for consumers may be rather small.
  With carrots we have a very limited use of the concession. The outcome is disappointing. The tariff reductions cover only about two weeks of the Cypriots' main season.
  I emphasise that we are dealing not just with trade between peoples but with the way of life of the Cypriot people. When we are talking about prices and trade within the Community or outside, although we want to get food and to get it cheaply—I have made this point in the recent meetings of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in Paris—we have to recognise that there are other factors. There are human factors and job factors, and these are important.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House takes note of Commission document No. S/2066/77 on trade with Cyprus; notes, however, that the present agricultural agreement between the European Economic Community and Cyprus is a temporary one, pending an extension of the Association Agreement which expired in June 1977; and urges the Government to press for the conclusion of a permanent agreement as soon as possible which takes more account of both the economic problems of Cyprus and the need to secure the United Kingdom's traditional supplies of agricultural products from Cyprus, especially potatoes.

  RACE RELATIONS AND IMMIGRATION
  Ordered,
  That the Standing Order of 14th January 1975 relating to the nomination of the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration be amended, by leaving out Mr. A. G. F. Hall-Davis and inserting Mr. Roger Sims.—[Mr. Harper]

  RATE SUPPORT GRANT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Harper.]
  12.40 a.m.
  Mr. Arthur Jones: I welcome the opportunity which this Adjournment debate provides to talk about the needs element of the rate support grant. I recognise that it is at rather an unsocial hour, but I have tried in the past to have it at a more reasonable time. I was successful in the Private Members' Ballot, but on Friday 13th January we had very little time available to us after the previous debates—only six minutes, in fact—and there was insufficient time for me to develop the important questions or for the Minister to reply to the points that I made.
  On that occasion the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment—the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett)—was here to reply to the debate. I am pleased to see this evening the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Marks), who is one of the three Under-Secretaries of State for the Environment. I have looked at the duties which go with the various appointments in the Department and I find that it is the Secretary of
  1706
  State who has the overall responsibility for the work of the Department and is primarily concerned with strategic issues of policy and priorities, including public expenditure, which determine the operation of the Department as a whole. Clearly, the responsibility for the rate support grant lies with the Secretary of State.
  In the few minutes that was available on the last occasion, it was the hon. Member for Greenwich who spoke. as I have indicated, and I am not surprised, having looked at what he said, that he has been put into a state of purdah for the time being in regard to the rate support grant.
  He said:
  "I accept that the regression analysis system, whereby we assess the needs element that should be paid to each local authority, is complex. A limited number of people fully understand the system".
  He went on:
  "It is difficult for the ordinary citizen and many people in local government fully to comprehend the system. However, it is an acceptable system—until we find a better one—because it is objective and seen to be objctive."—[Official Report, 13th January 1978; Vol. 941, c. 2119.]
  I hope to point out that it by no means fulfils that description.
  The concern that exists with regard to the arrangements for the rate support grant was reflected on both sides of the House during the debate on the 1977–78 order. I refer particularly to the needs element of the distribution, which was discussed at length and referred to by the Secretary of State as follows:
  "Discussion of needs element distribution is always detailed and technical, and there is much scope for misunderstanding and confusion. … Needs, and therefore variations in expenditure, change year by year… How do we measure these variations in need under the present system? … We then, using a statistical technique, see whether there is any correlation between these factors and the actual expenditure of local authorities. Where there is such correlation, it provides for us a weighting for such a factor. We then use a package of such tested and weighted factors to distribute the grant."
  The hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Crowther), who for many years has taken a leading part in local government affairs, said during the debate, in questioning the whole concept of the rate support grant:
  "Having got ourselves into the realms of comic opera through this incredibly complicated

  1707
  System … it is time to scrap the whole thing and start again…the time has come for a radical reform of local government finance."—[Official Report, 15th December 1977; Vol. 941.]
  The various factors used in the assessment formula are detailed in Appendix F of the order, and it is interesting to see those which have been tested, included or rejected over the years, details of which are given for the four-year period 1975–6 to 1978–9. The inclusion or otherwise of criteria appears to be of a casual and arbitrary nature. For example, "persons per acre" was not tested for three of the years but was selected for inclusion in 1978–9. "Acres over 1·5 per head" was, on the other hand, selected for the first three years of the period and not tested for the fourth. "Acres per person" was, it appears, treated identically with "persons per acre"—not tested in the first three years, but selected in the fourth.
  Another factor, "elderly living alone", was selected for the first three years, and tested but not selected in the fourth, which may be surprising in the context that there must be an increasing proportion of the community in these circumstances.
  In the case of "overcrowding", the decision has varied; first year, not tested; second and third year, selected; fourth year, not tested. Similarly with "shared households"; first two years, not tested; third year, selected; fourth year, not tested.
  During the debate on 15th December 1977, the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Radice) asked why unemployment had been removed from the needs assessment for 1978–9, to which the Secretary of State replied:
  "We could not find any serious correlation between expenditure needs and the actual incidence of unemployment."—[Official Report, 15th December 1977; Vol. 941, c. 935–84.]
  Yet the Government spokesman said, on 22nd December 1976:
  "The evidence is that there is a direct relationship between the level of local authority expenditure and the level of unemployment in any given area."—[Official Report, 22nd December 1976; Vol. 923, c. 846.]
  Appendix F shows that unemployment was not tested in the first two years of the analysis, was selected in the third, and tested but not selected in the fourth. The Minister's remarks surely illustrate the casual nature of the decision-taking on
  1708
  criteria both by the Department and himself.
  In Appendix F we read, in paragraph 3:
  "Many of the changes in factors are the result of the inadequacy of the data which made it necessary to drop a number of factors tested in previous years. A few newly devised factors have also been added to the list for testing."
  The question is bound to be asked "On what basis and by whom are factors introduced and rejected, and how is correlation between the various factors of need reflected in the distribution formula?" My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), in the rate support grant debate, put it thus to the Secretary of State:
  "He selects the formulae that are fed into the calculation. There is no automatic emergence of needs solutions. It is his decision."
  The Secretary of State replied:
  "What happens is that there is a technical committee, consisting mainly of representatives of the different local authority associations. They look at particular formulae and recommend the one which they think is the best. Of course, in the end it is my job, as Minister, to decide."—[Official Report, 15th December 1977; Vol. 941, c. 937.]
  It is surely difficult for the Secretary of State effectively to resist the charge that at the end of the day the decision on distribution is a political one for him, the sheer complexity of the existing arrangements providing a screen for political decisions concealed behind technical incomprehensibility. In maintaining that the choice of criteria is based on the recommendations of the various local authority associations it must be recognised that their interests on behalf of the communities that they represent significantly differ from one another, and I very much question the Secretary of State's assurances in this respect. Consultation, yes; but acting upon agreed decisions, I very much doubt.
  It is widely considered that the rate support grant arrangements are determined by civil servants and local authority officers who, working in groups throughout the year, strive to serve, in the main, political objectives, the former on behalf of the Secretary of State and the latter on behalf of the ruling parties in the local authority associations. This means that there is bound to be a lack of objectivity in the manipulation of the grant to produce politically desirable

  1709
  conclusions, achieved by the selection of the criteria in the needs element. However, we must continue to search for ways and means of effectively using such vast public resources to best advantage, relevant expenditure for 1978–9 totalling £12,531 million, as stated in col. 929 of the Official Report of the debate on 15th December.
  The Secretary of State's reference to a four-year damping, to flatten out, as he put it, year-on-year changes, is surely an admission that such an introduction must be a recognition of the inability of the regression method to generate a stable formula for grant distribution—a point made in the July 1977 issue of the review published by the Centre for Environmental Studies.
  The needs element formula fails to meet any of the four criteria identified by the study team on expenditure needs assessment in 1976 for the acceptability of the needs assessment methods.
  These are, first, that actual expenditure should not be used to derive a formula, unless the service level variations can be removed. Secondly, only factors which are judged to cause need for local authority services should be included in the formula. Thirdly, the method should be objective and impartial and should be capable of justification to local authorities in general. Fourthly, the derivation of the needs formula should be understandable and the formula should be simple.
  I understand that no fewer than five sub-groups are reviewing the needs assessment formula under a variety of headings, and I hope their recommendations will be published. I also understand that an extended critique of the Green Paper "Local Government Finance" and of alternative methods of needs assessment will be published next month by Tyrrell Burgess, Tony Travers and John Pratt of the Centre for Institutional Studies, North East London Polytechnic, in their response to the Green Paper. It will be interesting to see what this uncommitted team has to recommend.
  A pernicious feature of the present arrangement is the assumption that actual spending patterns are the best general representation of need. This produces an inherent tendency for high expendi-
  1710
  ture to be rewarded by more grant, which can then be used to lever up expenditure still further, with the reverse effect upon the low spenders. This situation has the effect of increasing extremes of expenditure and hence of so-called needs, which in turn will aggravate the already significant variations in grant entitlements, and it is difficult to understand how this arrangement can on any adjudication be accepted as reasonable.
  It is interesting to consider the effect of the needs element distribution per head of the population for 1978–79. The extent of the variations are all too obvious. The figures made available to me are based on estimated final allocations and express percentage changes from the national average.
  For the non-metropolitan counties, the entitlement of Surrey is 46·4 below; of Northamptonshire, 17·9 below; and of Powys, 85·4 above. For the metropolitan counties, the greatest beneficiaries are Manchester and Liverpool, whose percentage changes above the national average are 76·2 and 62·9 respectively. At the other end of the scale, Dudley is below the national average by 35·8 per cent. and Solihull by 22·2 per cent.
  Among the Inner London boroughs, the City of London is the only authority below the national average—by no less than 208·3 per cent. The greatest percentage variations are in Tower Hamlets, 111·9 above; and Islington, 118·2 above. The percentage change from the national average for all 12 inner boroughs is plus 66·2. Without exception, all 20 outer boroughs benefit to an overall figure of 43·3 per cent. above the national average. Newham is 99·3 above and Haringey and Brent both 95·6 above. Those with the lowest variations are Hillingdon at 14·7 and Harrow at 17·6.
  The percentage share of the needs grant distribution for non-metropolitan counties in England has gone down from 52·37 in 1974–75 to 46·12 in 1978–79, a reduction of 11·82 per cent. in four years. For the metropolitan districts, the comparative figures are 25·32 and 26·5—an increase of 4·66 per cent.—and for London, 16·45 and 21·63, a significant change of plus 31·49 per cent.
  An inquiry by the Centre for Environmental Studies, the results of which are carried in a recent CES review, estab-

  1711
  lishes the fact that ratepayers in Labour-controlled areas have to pay higher bills than those in Tory ones, despite the fact that the needs grant is based on actual spending, which should automatically compensate for the higher needs and should not cause increased rate pound-ages. The purpose behind the needs element is to compensate for particular local circumstances, such as bad housing, poor social conditions and low income groups and the report questions the fulfilment of the objectives of the needs element.
  An added factor is referred to by the authors Richard Jackman and Mary Sellars:
  "There is, for example, independent evidence that Labour councils tend to spend more, other things being equal, than non-Labour councils. If local authorities in receipt of additional grant spend it, rather than reducing their rate poundages, they will attract a further increase in grant, and so on. The fact that grants and expenditure are highly correlated does not necessarily mean that higher grants are a cause of higher expenditure, but the evidence we have considered suggests that this has been the case, to some extent, over the last few years."
  However, these comments emphasise a point to which I made reference during the rate support grant debate:
  "It is recognised that the rate support grant relates to past council expenditures and it is clear that it is here that the substantive criticism of the system lies. The prudent and careful are penalised and the profligate are provided with perhaps unmerited additional resources. That is something that the right hon. Gentleman recognises. He says that it is difficult to get away from it."—[Official Report, 15th December, 1977; Vol. 941, c. 1056.]
  During the December debate the Secretary of State observed—column 935—that nearly half of the needs element goes to authorities in proportion to their population and it is maintained by the Association of County Councils that the main determinant of expenditure need is population in appropriate client groups and changes in population are the main determinant of changes in need. The Secretary of State dealt with this point—column 936—but made no reference to the fact that distribution is based upon the 1971 Census figures, and it is clearly a matter of regret that the present Government decided to cancel the interim Census in 1976, which must, by the use of out-dated figures, lead to significant distortions in any calculation.
  1712
  The control of local government finance could well be a covert attempt at subverting legislation, and there is evidence of attempts by the Government to erode local authority responsibility. The latest is a Press notice issued on Monday last by the Department of Education and Science arising from the report of the working group on the management of higher education, which was chaired by the Minister of State. A national body to advise on maintained higher education is proposed which will be required
  "to decide on the allocation of national funds between local authorities and institutions.…The body should be seen to exercise considerable authority. A large measure of responsibility and initiative should however be preserved at local level and there will be important limits to the national body's powers."
  There is now widespread recognition of a desperate need for the reform of local government finance and considerable political will is necessary in both central and local government if changes are to be made. Certainly an excluse is available until after the next General Election, in view of the commitment by the Conservative Party to phase out domestic rating. It has been suggested that it may now be more appropriate to place the expenditure for education, the police and fire services on the Exchequer rather than under the existing shared arrangements. If we are to maintain an effective system of local government, there must be clear accountability by elected members to their communities, and surely this requires that there shall be a direct correlation between the demands upon local electors, whether by a rating or some other form of taxation, and expenditure on local identifiable services.
  12.58 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Kenneth Marks): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Jones) for giving the House an opportunity for a detailed debate on the basis of rate support grant distribution. I apologise for the fact my ministerial colleague, the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Barnett) is not here to reply for the Department. We believe in fair shares, and since my hon. Friend will be replying to two debates tomorrow, I have taken on this task tonight.
  In almost every rate support grant debate since 1967 I have tried to make

  1713
  the lives of Ministers difficult, and I must say I have in the past received some strange answers.
  I was interested in the hon. Gentleman's closing remarks, and I had in mind the Conservative promise to phase out domestic rating. We have been waiting for four years to hear what the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition would put in its place, but we still do not know the answer.
  Too often debates on the rate support grant are bogged down in details of the effects of settlements on individual authorities, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important to examine the underlying issues. Huge sums are involved. A total of £6·5 billion is paid out in one operation to over 400 different authorities of widely differing circumstances. We must obviously get the arrangements for this distribution as nearly right as possible. The Government are not complacent about their efforts to do so. At the outset, I want to make it clear that I shall talk only about the needs element and do not propose to go over the same ground as was covered before Christmas in the debate on the order.
  I begin by dealing with the criticisms of regression analysis and I shall then deal with the alternative systems, one of which the hon. Member has suggested. First, let us establish what we are talking about. Regression analysis has been used as the method for assessing local authority expenditure needs since 1974. It was developed for use in the rate support grant by the last Conservative Administration. Very briefly, the system takes the existing patterns of expenditure by local authorities as the best available basis for assessing how much they need to spend on the reasonable basis that local authorities spend only what they have to. It then uses regression analysis to give the best explanation of this pattern of differences between authorities in expenditure per head, in terms of a range of indicators of need.
  A computer ranks these indicators in terms of their significance and gives weightings to those indicators which when applied to the data, for example, numbers of schoolchildren for each authority, gives
  1714
  the best overall fit with the per head expenditure of all local authorities. The range of indicators tested—I accept that various indicators are used on different occasions—represents a range of demographic, social and economic needs. They included, for 1978–79, persons over 65 and 75; persons of pensionable age living alone; persons living in households lacking the basic amenities; ratio of population to housing stock, density and sparsity; road mileage, which affects rural areas in the main; housing starts; school pupils and students aged 16 to 18; children under five; labour costs; unemployment; and low income. All of these are factors which, with the four-year damping system, are used in the assessment.
  The hon. Gentleman argues that much of the data on which the rate support grant is distributed is now unreliable. I accept that this is a key problem. We have hitherto relied on 1971 Census data for many of the social factors. These are now becoming increasingly out of date. A few were used for the 1978–79 distribution. Technical analysis has demonstrated that their relative incidence in authorities is not likely to have altered significantly since 1971. But even these are becoming more unreliable as years move on.
  The Consultative Council on Local Government Finance has asked central and local government officials to look at the prospects of improvements. Their report will be discussed after Easter. Whilst we attach a great deal of importance to this problem, we must await consideration of this report before going any further. Meanwhile, however, I emphasise that lack of good data is a genuine difficulty and will remain such, whatever method of assessment is used.
  The hon. Member argued, I believe, that the increased population of certain local authorities has not been taken account of in recent settlements. Since he comes from an area in which there is population growth I know that he is concerned that this may happen. Increased population is taken into account in the per head part of the needs element. The larger an authority, the more the per head part of the needs element it receives in total. It is true that no factors directly related to population growth were tested

  1715
  in the 1978–79 needs assessment. These were dropped on the recommendation of grants working group, a technical group of central and local authority experts.
  I accept that, by and large, counties with growing populations have not fared well in recent settlements. There have been large percentage increases in rate poundage. Daventry will have an increase in April of 13·07 per cent., from 54·77p to 61·93p. Part of my constituency is in the city of Manchester. In the Manchester inner city area the rate poundage this year will I go up by 7·08 per cent., to 96·80p, which is as big an increase as that for Daventry, although the proportion is smaller. I do not think that Manchester is being extravagant or spending more than it needs to spend. I can find quite a few things in my constituency in respect of which it needs to spend more, and I keep telling the authority so.
  It is vital to remember that the needs element is a per head grant. If growing counties' per head needs are not growing faster than other authorities, it is perfectly reasonable for them not to benefit in needs element terms. And one would not necessarily expect per head needs in growing counties to increase. For instance, the more efficient use of existing services and the lower proportion of families with social problems will tend to offset higher infrastructure costs faced by authorities. Increasing numbers of schoolchildren will be picked up in the regression analysis. So will the increased number of elderly persons, if they are there. A school pupil in Northampton, or any other shire, counts just as much as a school pupil in Manchester or Liverpool.
  We accept, however, that in authorities with active new towns, there will be special problems as a result of population growth. This is precisely why in 1976–77 the Government introduced the undue burdens scheme. The scheme empowers certain new town corporations to make interest free loans to their host counties. Northamptonshire is one of the counties to benefit.
  I agree with the hon. Gentleman's point that regression analysis is based on expenditure but I do not agree with the implications that he draws from this. First, it is hard to dispute that expenditure is the best starting point for
  1716
  determining relative expenditure needs in local government as a whole. It represents the views of local government on spending needs and of the Government on aggregate local government expenditure, and it is quite right that regression analysis rewards high spending authorities if their higher spending is really needed. I admit that some of the spending is for the benefit not only of an authority's own population. For example, spending on the arts and museums benefits populations in other areas.
  Secondly, only if a large number of authorities with very similar need characteristics and high rates of overspending in a year could the regression result be significantly affected. It is most unlikely that such groups of authorities would all be overspending at the same time. There is certainly no evidence that this has ever occurred. Much has been made in the past and tonight of the seeming implausibility of the factor weightings in the rate support grant distribution formula.
  I agree with the hon. Gentleman's facts on factor weightings but not with implications he draws from these facts. I emphasise that regression analysis aims to select those factors which are the most significant explanations of differences in local authority expenditure need and weights them accordingly. The basic purpose of needs element is to compensate for these differences. Needs element is not a proportional grant, and neither are the factors in the rate support grant distribution formula proportionately related to expenditure.
  I accept that in recent years there have been occasional large year-on-year changes in individual authorities needs assessments. This is mainly due to changes in the mix of factors in the formula. It is one of the reasons why we used the damping mechanism, whereby the 1978–79 needs assessment was combined with those for the previous three years. The fact is that four-year damping did even out needs element changes and I emphasise that regression is not solely responsible for the changing pattern of grant distribution in 1978–79. There were other factors, for instance, changes in the basis of calculation of labour cost and education data and changes in the relative position of London.

  1717
  I make two points about the year-on-year changes in the factors used to distribute rate support grant. First, there are obviously year-on-year changes in the pattern of expenditure need. These changes are the reason for annual needs assessments, and one would expect changes in the factors which best explain a slightly different pattern of expenditure needs.
  It is obvious enough that an authority in a declining industrial area will have more poor housing, problem families, elderly people needing support to cater for than a more prosperous area and the simple system developed by the ACC would itself try to recognise this. The ACC method assesses authorities' needs partly on the basis of client group num-
  1718
  bers—for example, school children—and partly on the basis of judgments. As presently developed, it suffers from one major difficulty—the heavy reliance on judgments.
  The range of possibilities for assessing local authority expenditure needs will be discussed by the consultative council on 21st April. We have had the most extensive review of the options available on needs assessment ever conducted. I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this important subject tonight, but I hope that he will agree that the next step is to hear the views of the local authority associations on needs assessment, after Easter.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes past One o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of London.

LORD YOUNG OF DARTINGTON
Michael Young, Esquire, having been created Baron Young of Dartington, of Dartington in the County of Devon, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Bowden and the Lord Vaizey, and made the solemn Affirmation.

LIVESTOCK PRODUCTION AND EXPORT
2.47 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the cause of the decline of 8 per cent. in the number of beef cattle on English and Welsh farms at 31st December 1977 over the previous year; and how far the export of live cattle and calves has contributed to this decline and to the rising prices which have followed the fall in livestock numbers.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the figures for beef cattle in the December census for England and Wales relate to cows kept mainly for rearing calves for beef. Very few of these cows have been exported. The decline in their number is due to a range of factors, including the continued switch towards beef from the dairy herd, the relative profitability of other enterprises and the heavy slaughter of breeding stock in 1974 and 1975.
The export trade in calves consists chiefly of bull calves from the dairy herd: it thus has little direct bearing on the size of the beef breeding herd. All aspects of the export trade in live calves have been
1792
examined by a working party of officials of the Agriculture Departments whose report will be published tomorrow. Prices for fat cattle are above those of a year ago but since September last have been below the target price, with producers' returns being maintained at target price levels by premium payments.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that long and undoubtedly convincing reply, which I shall study carefully, may I ask whether he knows if the publication of the report of the working party will come out before I have the opportunity of asking my Unstarred Question tomorrow? Or may I assume that a number of questions which I want to put will be answered in that paper? The confusion about this situation is that so many more—
Several noble Lords: Question!
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY:—live calves and sheep are being exported as a percentage of our total production than in earlier years. The confusion about this situation needs to be cleared up.
Several noble Lords: Question!
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, can the noble Lord offer any hope in the publication of the working party's report that this confused situation will be fully explained?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the report will be published and will be available tomorrow morning, in good time, I think, for the debate on my noble friend's Unstarred Question. With regard to its contents, Ministers will need time to study the implications and to take soundings before reaching a decision on the future of the trade. I am sure that noble Lords and other interested parties will also wish to study the report.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that those of us who are farmers, and who are in the beef business, do not understand what he and the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, are saying? The answer is perfectly simple; there is no money in it.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I really cannot let the noble Lord the

1793
Leader of the Opposition get away with that, even though we are approaching the Easter Recess. We have seen a good recovery from the weak beef markets last autumn, and home slaughtering since Christmas has been above last year's levels. Despite this, market prices have been very much stronger, and consumers and producers continue to benefit from the variable premiums which have kept producer returns up to target price levels, and have moderated intervention purchases.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, what I think the noble Lord—
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, I know my noble friend takes a great interest in this and I do not want to curb his enthusiasm, but he must ask a question.
Lord TRANMIRE: My Lords, arising out of that reply, is it not a fact that the price received by the home producer of beef is something like 30 per cent. less than what is received by the French producer?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, following the 5 per cent. devaluation of the green pound on 1st February and the extension of the beef marketing year to the end of April, the target price in the last week of April will be 66·75p per live kilo, an increase of 11·63p above the target price at the same time last year.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, in view of the fact that the proportion of the output of calves, cattle and sheep being exported has risen significantly in the last 12 months, may I ask my noble friend whether British farmers are selling Britain short?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, all these aspects, of course, are dealt with in the report, which does not make an overall recommendation for or against the continuance of the trade. It examines all aspects clearly and objectively, and draws conclusions on particular points. The overall decision is a matter for Ministers, and we shall look forward to hearing the views of all the interests concerned.
Viscount ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, confirm that, in an earlier reply on this Question today, he said that the reason for the reduction was that other farming operations were more profitable than this? Does it therefore not follow in logic that the reason for the reduction is that this operation is less profitable?
Lord GLENKINGLAS: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord could, without anticipating tomorrow's debate, agree largely with what my noble friend Lord Carrington said; namely, that the drop in the number of beef cattle was basically because there was no money in their production? Does he not agree that, although the prices have—thank goodness !—improved a little this spring, the worry of the beef breeders has been the drop in the prices and the rise in feedingstuff costs in the last year or two? Would he also agree that the only thing which has kept the farmers going is the fact that they have been able to export a certain number of cattle and sheep at reasonable prices to the Common Market? Far from selling the country short, does not the noble Lord the Minister feel that the farmers are doing a very good job despite great difficulties?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sure that there is a lot in what the noble Lord says. From 1st May, the support levels will also benefit from the further 2½ per cent. devaluation of the green pound and whatever increase is agreed in the common support price. These will be reflected in the target prices for the rest of this year.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE:My Lords, would not the noble Lord repudiate with an unqualified answer the suggestion that because people export they are selling the country short?
Lord STRABOLGI: Yes, certainly, my Lords.

THERMAL INSULATION
2.54 p.m.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why no regulations have yet been made for improved standards of thermal insulation in industrial, commercial and residential properties other than housing, in view of the fact that consultations with interested bodies started in July of last year.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk): My Lords, the proposed regulations are the first to be made under the powers to conserve energy, and my right honourable friend has to ensure that they are technically correct and legally enforceable. He now hopes to lay the Statutory Instrument before Parliament within the next few weeks.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask whether she does not feel that the time which has elapsed since these regulations were formulated, is, in spite of the necessity for consultation, rather long, particularly in view of the importance of energy conservation?
Baroness BIRK: No, my Lords, I do not think it has been particularly long, because a number of people had to be consulted; industrialists and others had to be given the opportunity of putting their views, which they did. There is nothing, and there has never been anything, to stop anyone from going ahead with arrangements to conserve energy if they wish to do so, because these regulations apply to new buildings.
The Earl of GOWRIE: My Lords, in view of the fact that we are not yet in balance-of-payments surplus on oil, and also in view of the fact that, even should that happy event take place, we would wish to save all the money we could, can the noble Baroness say whether there are any plans to make insulation allowances eligible under the improvement grants scheme?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, I do not think so at the moment. I shall have to write to the noble Earl on that particular
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question because I have not had notice of it. So far as the insulation of housing goes, of course, that does apply; but this is under different regulations and once these are made there will be a certain time before they are put into effect, to give people the chance to get used to the idea and to make plans. If I may, I will write to the noble Earl on that point.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, would the noble Baroness recall that the price of oil doubled and doubled again in the autumn of 1973? Since then it has been important not only to develop new sources of energy but also to preserve the energy which we are at present consuming. Surely it is more realistic to give special incentives to encourage the conversion of and insulation in existing houses, rather than to institute a plan without much priority which will take several generations before it makes a real impact on our conservation of energy and the loss of heat from existing houses?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, the Question which I was asked, and to which I was doing my best to reply, was not dealing with housing at all but with industrial and commercial properties. In fact it refers quite specifically to—
"… residential … other than housing".
The noble Lord was referring to housing, which is entirely different.
Lord GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, while not wishing to go into the detail of my noble friend's Question, could the noble Baroness at least give some assurance that this matter, including housing, will be dealt with with the same sense of urgency as the Government have given to the rest of the energy question?
Baroness BIRK: Yes, my Lords. It will be dealt with now with considerable speed, taking into account the fact that people have to make plans in order to incorporate the new regulations. As I have already said, there is nothing to stop people in existing buildings from going ahead and making arrangements in order to conserve energy, which will be cost-effective not only for the country but also for themselves.

SOVIET MERCHANT SHIPPING TARIFFS
3 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask whether Her Majesty's Government can state what arrangements have been made with the Soviet Union with regard to a visit recently made to discuss the undercutting by the Soviet Union of merchant shipping tariffs.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, the noble Baroness is no doubt aware that discussions on maritime problems were held at ministerial level in Moscow last October. The outcome was disappointing and no further ministerial discussions are currently planned. Measures dealing with the activities of State-trading country shipping lines are being discussed in the European Community.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that rather unsatisfactory reply. May I ask him whether he can say what progress is being made in the EEC part of the world, and when can we expect a report on the subject, as this is rather necessary for a quick decision?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness means that the situation is disappointing or unsatisfactory, rather than my reply. But, as to the position in the EEC, the Council of Transport Ministers has asked for an action programme involving co-ordinated defensive measures and the Commission are preparing some proposals. The noble Baroness asked about the date, and I understand that the proposals will be considered at the next meeting of the Council of Ministers on 12th June.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is a deliberate Soviet policy of taking over large areas of the world's shipping business, by offering charges that are entirely uneconomic? Is this not worrying to the Government in view,
1798
also, of the massive expansion of the Soviet navy, besides the damage being done to the British shipping industry?
Lord ORAM: Yes, my Lords. The situation is indeed worrying. There are a number of specific problems which the Soviet authorities were not anxious to discuss with us; they wanted to talk along more general lines. It is for that reason that we feel that carrying on with the ministerial discussions is not profitable at this time, until the Soviet Union show more willingness to meet us in regard to the specific problems which the noble Lord obviously has in mind—for instance, the activities of the Soviet Besta line which, through its low rates and large numbers of sailings, is threatening to undermine the conference trade to and from East Africa. There is that kind of specific problem, of which we are only too aware, and on which we are anxious to see the Soviet Union move towards a solution.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say when he thinks it will be time for us to put down another Question, so that we do not lose any time?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I have indicated a date when the EEC discussions will take place, and I think that the noble Baroness would have that date in mind in deciding what further action to take herself.
Lord GISBOROUGH: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the EEC discussions will include the competition which is offered by the Trans-Siberian land bridge, which not only undercuts Western shipping but is even of concern to the Russian shipowners, Morflot.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, we are very much aware of that land bridge problem. Though I would not wish to enter into any specific statement about the content of the discussions within the EEC, I can assure the noble Lord that that is a problem which is very much in mind.
Lord GLENKINGLAS: My Lords, does the Minister not find it a little difficult to argue against the Russians behaving in this way when our own

1799
Government are heavily subsidising ships to foreign countries, with the obvious result of their undercutting our prices?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, that is a wider question. I am not embarrassed at not knowing the answer.
Lord MOTTISTONE: My Lords, on a more personal basis, will the noble Lord confirm the report in this morning's newspaper that he is leaving the Front Bench of the Government? If that is so, is he aware of what a disappointment that will be to those of us on this side of the House who have enjoyed many opportunities of sparring with him, particularly at the Committee stages of Bills?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord opposite. I am surprised that the event to which he referred warrants mention in a newspaper. But I have enjoyed engaging in tussles with him and with many others, both in front of me and behind me.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, I could not let that opportunity pass. Has the noble Lord received my note saying how sorry I personally am that he is going, and expressing much appreciation of the kindness, co-operation and help that he has always given to this most troublesome questioner?
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, would the noble Lord take one further opportunity of charming this House with his effective answers, by answering this question: Is it not true that, in the Russian merchant navy, both the designs of ships and the crews come from the USSR Navy? Therefore, does not this allow them to undercut by totally uncommercial prices the operations of all the Free World's ships in any part, and is not this another way of spreading maritime influence in all the oceans of the world?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, it is, of course, a fact that the whole economic system in the Soviet Union and in related countries is very different from the systems in the West. In addition to the factor to which the noble Lord referred, there are many other factors of finance and so on which make competition from them very difficult to define and, therefore, very difficult to overcome.

MAINTENANCE ORDERS: NON-PAYMENT
3.7 p.m.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. May I be allowed to say how pleased I am to see the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, back, and I hope that she has fully recovered and is her usual energetic self.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why in view of the Attachment of Earnings Act 1971, there are 700 men imprisoned for not paying court orders for the maintenance of the children they have fathered.
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, during 1976—the latest period for which figures are available—the total number of men committed into custody by magistrates' courts for failure to pay maintenance for a child was 542. The annual figure has fallen from 900 in 1970, and has been less than 700 since 1973. The estimated average number of men in prison at any one time during 1976 for failure to pay maintenance for a child was less than 50. Attachment of earnings orders are a useful means of extracting money from men who are in regular employment, but they are ineffective as a measure against persons who are self-employed, unemployed or who regularly change their jobs.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Can he say what action can be taken, other than sending these men to prison, because, as he rightly remarked, if they cannot pay there is not much point in sending them to prison? The figure I was given was that about 300,000 children have been fathered by the men who have been sent to prison. I should like to say how pleased I am to see the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, here, because he was so helpful in bringing in the earlier maintenance orders, and I only hope that these orders will be made more effective in the future.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, there is evidence that the threat of imprisonment is an effective sanction

1801
against failure to pay maintenance. This appears from an informal survey which was conducted by the Home Office in six magistrates' courts in 1974, and which showed that in nearly 90 per cent. of the cases where a court issued a committal warrant, but suspended it on conditions, the defaulter never, in fact, reached prison.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, as one who was a magistrate for well over a quarter of a century, may I ask my noble friend whether quite a number of men deliberately pile up some hundreds of pounds worth of arrears, and then, very willingly and eagerly, go to prison in order to wipe out those arrears of, perhaps, £600 or £700? Is not that, therefore, an additional reason why the Attachment of Earnings Act should be more stringently enforced?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, the figures which I have given from the survey which was conducted in 1974 show that, in 90 per cent. of those cases, the person went to considerable lengths not to go to prison. But my noble friend is quite right; it is a difficult area. Undoubtedly, attachment of earnings operates extremely effectively, but only for people who have a regular job which they do not constantly change.

BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION
3.10 p.m.
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, my noble friend Lord Oram will, at a convenient moment after 3.30, repeat a Statement on the future of the British Steel Corporation.

SOUND BROADCASTING
Lord PEART: My Lords, I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if I made a brief Statement about sound broadcasting.
The House will recall that, in July last, the broadcasting authorities were authorised to provide and operate sound signal origination equipment for the purpose of recording or broadcasting the proceedings of the House. The necessary arrangements are now complete and will become
1802
operational as from Tuesday, 4th April, the day the House returns from the Easter Recess. From then on, the BBC and the IBA will be able to broadcast programmes containing live material from the Chamber.
A master tape of the proceedings in both Houses will be preserved in the Parliamentary Sound Archive Unit which is situated on the third floor of the Norman Shaw (South) building, where noble Lords will be able to listen to any tapes, should they wish to do so.
The conduct of sound broadcasting will be under the general supervision of the Select Committee which was appointed on 9th March and of which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, is the Chairman. This committee has power to meet with a similar committee which has been appointed in another place.
Lord WINSTANLEY: My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that Statement and the very welcome news contained in it, may I ask him whether he is aware that there could be grave difficulties for certain Members of your Lordships' House and, indeed, for Members of another place and for the Independent Television Authority itself, if rapid progress is not made with the Independent Television Bill to repeal Section 4(2) of the Act, which requires the Authority to exclude from its programmes the contributions of Members of both Houses of Parliament?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord need worry. I do not believe that there will be any delay.

HOUSE OF LORDS' OFFICES
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move that this report be now agreed to. In doing so, there is only one point which I ought to draw to your Lordships' attention; namely, paragraph 3, regarding the use of computers. The committee approved a proposal to computerise for Parliamentary use certain existing statistical records about the membership of the House, and they also agreed that it

1803
would be valuable to include in the computer database information about Peers' specialised knowledge and experience.
The proposal is that noble Lords will be circularised and asked what particular specialised knowledge or experience they care to allow us to put on to the computer. This would be useful for manning committees, for debates and for other purposes. I beg to move.
Moved, that the Second Report from the Select Committee be agreed to.—(Lord Aberdare.)
The Report was as follows:
1. SUB-COMMITTEES
Lord Denham was appointed to the Finance and Refreshment Sub-Committees in the place of Earl St. Aldwyn.
The Committee agreed to extend the Parliament Office Sub-Committee's terms of reference to include Black Rod's staff. The Committee propose that the Sub-Committee should in future be known as "The Sub-Committee on the Staff of the House".
The Committee agreed that the quorum of Sub-Committees should be reduced from three to two members.
2. PARLIAMENTARY PRINTING
The Committee approved a recommendation from the Administration Sub-Committee on the format of the Official Report (Hansard) when it is published in due course on A4 size paper.
3. USE OF COMPUTERS
The Committee approved a proposal to computerise certain existing statistical records about the membership of the House for Parliamentary use.
The Committee also agreed that it would be valuable to include in the computer database information about Peers' specialised knowledge and experience. Peers will be invited to provide this information on a form to be circulated by the Chairman of Committees, and will be shown a print-out of the entry against their name so that they can be satisfied about its accuracy.
The Committee will review the working of this database in a year's time.
4. VIEWDATA INFORMATION SYSTEM
The Committee agreed a proposal to contribute, for a trial period, to the Post Office's Viewdata information service. They also agreed to the Installation, in the Library, of a Viewdata terminal.
The Committee approved provision for the payment of the costs of staff training and expenses arising out of the installation of this and other computer based information services.
5. HOUSE OF LORDS' BULLETIN
The Committee agreed a proposal to issue a weekly bulletin about House of Lords' business. The Administration Sub-Committee will consider the content of the bulletin for publication.
6. LIBRARY
A Report from the Library Sub-Committee for the year 1977 was laid before the Committee and agreed.
The Committee approved a recommendation that the Library should have access to the British Library's Automated Information Service (BLAISE) and to the British Library's Local Cataloguing Service (LOCAS).
The Committee approved the creation of additional posts of Library Clerk and Information Clerk.
7. PARLIAMENT OFFICE
A Report from the Sub-Committee on the Parliament Office was received.
The Committee agreed to the regrading of a Chief Clerk's post in the Overseas and European Office to Principal Clerk and of the Accountant's post.
8. OFFICIAL SHORTHAND WRITER
The Committee approved the payment of additional fees for Committee work.
9. SUPERANNUATION
The Committee recommend that superannuation benefits to Clerks of the Parliaments should, in future, be provided by the House of Lords and not by the Civil Service Department.
The Committee were notified of the following awards:—

(a) Preserved pension and lump sum to Lady Elizabeth Barne, Personal Secretary, who resigned on 27th January 1978.

(b) Revised pension and lump sum to Mr. W. H. Langridge, former Doorkeeper, who retired after re-employed service as Special Messenger in the Chief Whip's Office on 1st March 1978.

(c) Revised pension and lump sum to Mrs. C. D. Nicholson, who retired after re-employed service as Cleaner on 1st March 1978.

(d) Pension and lump sum to Mrs. E. Farmer, Cleaner, who formally retired on 8th February 1978.

(e) Short service gratuity to Miss S. Perriinan, Shorthand Typist, who resigned on 27th January 1978.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

MENTALLY ABNORMAL OFFENDERS
3.13 p.m.
Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE rose to call attention to the outstanding recommendations made in the reports of the Committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders (Cmnds. 5698 and 6244); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion

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standing in my name. The main report of the Committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders was published in October 1975. Its findings have never been debated and I do not think that I need apologise to the House for inviting it to consider some of the issues which this strong Committee, in three years of hard work, considered so patiently and so profoundly. Perhaps I may be permitted to say what a particular pleasure it is that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, is to speak in the debate. I am also most grateful to the other speakers who have put down their names.
The cold and unemotional phraseology of this Motion conceals a complex of social problems of immense difficulty and issues which involve, in an acute form, the task of balancing the interests and security of the community against considerations affecting the lives and liberty of some of our least favoured citizens.
May I begin by taking your Lordships back to a day in 1962 when a 14 year-old boy was sent to Broadmoor for offences of poisoning. The court found that this boy was suffering from psychopathic disorder and directed that he should not without the Home Secretary's consent be discharged from Broadmoor for 15 years. In February 1971, consent was given to his conditional discharge on medical advice that he had responded well to treatment and was no longer a danger to others. In the event, it proved that his morbid interest in poisons had in no whit abated, and in June 1972 that young man, Graham Young, was sentenced to life imprisonment for two offences of murder and two offences of attempted murder, all those offences having been committed by poisoning.
As a result, certain steps were taken to overhaul the discharge procedure from Broadmoor; but in addition, the Home Secretary, Mr. Maudling, said that this case had brought to a head the view which he and the Social Services Secretary had been coming to for some time: that the time was now ripe for a wide-ranging inquiry into the whole question of the application of the criminal law to mentally abnormal offenders. The noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, was good enough to agree to take this on, and so the Committee was launched.
Noble Lords need have no apprehension that I am going to take them through each of the 140 recommendations made by the Committee. I propose rather to concentrate on just two main areas: first, a few of the issues raised in the report about the procedures followed by the criminal courts and, secondly, some questions relating to the disposal of those who have to remain in institutional care. In the first of these groups, I pick out three recommendations which raise especially difficult problems of individual liberty. I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, replies to the debate, he will be able at the least to tell us what the Government have in mind to follow up these and other recommendations—recommendations which I must again say the Government have had in their possession for some considerable time.
I begin with those cases where the accused person is unfit to plead at his trial because of his mental condition. I am conscious that in using this very phrase "unfit to plead" I am following a time-honoured practice which the Committee itself thought to be unsatisfactory. The Committee preferred the phrase "under disability in relation to the trial". Be that as it may, it has long been the law that if a defendant is found by the jury to be under such a disability the court is bound to order his admission to a hospital specified by the Home Secretary, perhaps to stand his trial later if his condition improves but not if it does not improve.
The courts do everything within their power to ensure that, wherever possible, a normal trial does take place, and the Committee itself made a number of helpful suggestions to this end. However, the point which I am especially concerned with is the Committee's recommendation that the present procedure should be changed so that even where a normal trial quite clearly cannot take place because of the defendant's disability, there should nevertheless be a trial of the facts to the fullest extent possible.
The purpose is obviously to make as certain as can be that injustice is not done to a person who is mentally unfit to stand his trial by putting him away indefinitely in a hospital for an offence which he did not commit. No one supposes that there

1807
is at present a risk of frequent injustice, but the risk certainly does exist; and although what the committee suggests involves a considerable elaboration of the law for a comparatively small number of cases, nevertheless it seems to me that it has made out a persuasive case for change.
The second of my three points is the recommendation that where there has been a trial and conviction the court should have new powers to remand a mentally disordered person to hospital for up to six months in all before deciding on his ultimate disposal. The difficulties speak for themselves, but I know that the physician superintendent of Broadmoor is strongly in favour of this and that he will not mind my saying so. In a difficult case it can very well take several months' assessment before the doctors can give a worthwhile opinion on whether an individual is likely to respond to treatment, and therefore whether a hospital order would be appropriate. The eventual decision of the court is a once-for-all decision of paramount importance to the individual and there must be a lot to be said for giving the court the best possible advice before that decision is taken.
Thirdly, I come to the special verdict, and I had better explain what I mean. I am afraid that this involves me again in trying to say in a rather amateur way what I understand the law to be, and I hope the lawyers will listen to what I say with even more than their customary tolerance. For several centuries it has been recognised that if a person, at the time of his unlawful act, was mentally so disordered that it would be unreasonable to impute guilt to him, he ought not to be held liable to conviction and punishment under the criminal law. The present Statute provides for a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity if it appears to the jury that the accused did the act with which he is charged but that he was insane at the time. As to what constitutes insanity, the criteria are still, in theory, those laid down by the judges in 1843 in reply to questions posed by this House in the celebrated case of M'Naghten. If an insanity defence succeeds it always follows that the accused is committed to a hospital specified by the Home Secretary and that he cannot be discharged without the Home Secretary's consent.
When we had capital punishment there was obviously a considerable incentive for the defence to seek this special verdict. That incentive has gone, and there are now few cases, but the Committee thought that it would be right to try to devise criteria to be put to the jury which reflect the present knowledge rather more accurately than do the M'Naghten rules, stretched and extended though they have been over the years by the ingenuity of the courts. Not all their witnesses agreed that the effort should be made, but the Committee thought that the present rules were quite unsuitable for inclusion in any modern criminal code. It is also possible that if the law is changed so as to give the courts a wider discretion as to disposal, and if therefore it does not follow that the special verdict automatically leads to indefinite detention in a hospital under the orders of the Home Secretary, the attempt to seek the special verdict may come back into rather greater use.
Something also turns on what happens about the defence of diminished responsibility, but I must not be tempted to go into that today. I am not going to say more about the carefully argued attempt made by the Committee for redefining and replacing the M'Naghten rules and introducing a new verdict of not guilty on evidence of mental disorder, but it would be interesting to know whether the Government think that this is an attempt which ought to be made. I know, too, that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, devoted a good deal of thought to this issue, and if, when he comes to speak, he could say a few words about it, I am sure we should all be very grateful. So much for my rather brief excursion into the criminal law.
I now come to my other group of questions about those who have to remain in institutional care. Perhaps I may be rash enough to say a brief word here too about the present law. The court has power in defined circumstances to order a mentally disordered person to be admitted to hospital for treatment, and except for a magistrates' court it can, in addition, make a restriction order if it thinks that this is necessary for the protection of the public. If a restriction order is made the individual cannot then be discharged without the Home Secretary's consent.
Then the Home Secretary for his part has a similar power to order a prisoner's removal to hospital, and power as well to attach a restriction order in such a case. Removal to a hospital for treatment, either by order of the court or by transfer from a prison, is not carried out unless the hospital is willing to accept the individual. The Committee found that these provisions were not working as they should. The trouble is this. On the one hand, we have the four special hospitals—Broadmoor, and the somewhat surprisingly named Park Lane, primarily for cases of mental illness and personality disorder, and Rampton and Moss Side for cases of subnormality. These hospitals are for those requiring treatment under conditions of special security on account of their dangerous or violent propensities. Not all their patients have been before the courts, but a good many of them have. The hospitals are overcrowded and the criteria for admission are strict.
On the other hand, the ordinary NHS hospitals have increasingly been subscribing to the open door therapeutic policy. I think it is fair to say that in recent years psychiatrists have become more reluctant to take on the care of dangerous or potentially violent patients or those with personality disorders, and look on treatment behind locked doors as inconsistent with what they are trying to do for the great majority of their patients. The staff, too, for reasons I can well understand, are tending to become less tolerant of accepting disturbed behaviour, and the skills in handling such behaviour are tending to be lost. The result is that between the special hospitals on the one hand, and the ordinary NHS hospitals on the other, there is a gap which is tending to widen. It was to fill this gap that the Butler Committee thought it right to put in an interim report in April 1974, practically four years ago, asking urgently for the setting up of regional secure units with some 2,000 beds, just a little less than the total occupancy of the four special hospitals.
The Government accepted this recommendation—at any rate for 1,000 beds to start with—and undertook to make the capital sums available. This was not a proposal to be killed, as so many are, by shortage of money. The Government then accepted a proposal in the main report,
1810
that in addition they should provide the money to run the units and special terms were settled for the nurses who would be employed there. What happened? My Lords, practically nothing; or perhaps, to be kinder, very little. In 1976–77 a revenue grant of £5·2 million was allocated to the 14 Regional Health Authorities for interim security purposes. Between them they spent £351,263, rather less than 7 per cent. of the total. Some of the rest was used as a kind of gift from heaven—a somewhat unusual role for the Elephant and Castle—and put to general expenses, like painting wards.
The Department, as I understand it, have allotted a similar total during the current year, but increased somewhat to take account of inflation, although I believe they have said that this time the money must be spent on psychiatry even if not actually on interim security. I know that the picture is patchy and that in three or four of the regions some interim provision has been made, but where it has been made it falls a long way short of the idea which the Butler Committee had, and in a number of the regions, so far as I can ascertain, nothing has been done at all. I have occasionally come across some problems of underspending of Exchequer money in my time—and I believe the Treasury are having some little local difficulty of this kind at the moment—but I have never come across underspending quite on this scale.
What are the reasons? First, there have been staff and trade union difficulties, as readers of the Guardian will know very well. There have been objections, very understandably, from local residents. But most important, I think, have been the reservations quite genuinely felt by the psychiatrists themselves. Whatever the cause, the results are plain. The courts are often frustrated because no hospital will take the offender before them; for lack of any alternative they have to send him to prison, which does not exist for the treatment of mental disorder, and whence he will return to the community when his fixed sentence is finished. A very experienced Lord Justice has told me that, so far as the courts are concerned, the position is now very much worse than it was in the 1960s. Broadmoor remains overcrowded, in part because it cannot move to local hospitals enough patients

1811
who no longer need the special security provided at Broadmoor. And the prisons, at any rate up till the other day, have practically given up asking the hospitals to take convicted offenders who are in need of treatment in a psychiatric hospital. According to the last report of the Prison Department, there are several hundreds of such prisoners.
Against this background, a Written Answer which Mr. Moyle gave to a Question in another place on 16th February, tucked away though it is without very much publicity, seems to me significant. This Written Answer is at column 345 of the Commons Hansard for 16th February. He said that several regions had interim secure facilities and that 10 of them had submitted proposals for regional secure units, but he added that the first two or three units were not likely to come into operation until 1980 or 1981, which, incidentally, will be just about 20 years since this idea of units was first mooted by a departmental working group, as the Committee's report records.
I know that the Social Services Secretary, as well as the Home Secretary, is taking a personal interest in these problems, and am very glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, is going to take part in this debate. I hope that when he does he will be able to enlarge somewhat on Mr. Moyle's written reply. Does it mean that the problems which have impeded progress for all these years have now been solved? Will the units be of the size and run on the lines recommended by the Butler Committee? Is the Committee's philosophy still accepted? Have the problems of staff co-operation and planning objections been overcome? Do we really have to wait for several more years before the first two or three units are brought into being? And has there been a change of heart among psychiatric consultants?
This last question is vital because, although the provision of a number of new units would be a remarkable step forward after all this time, I hope that no one will suppose that every single one of the violent or dangerous offenders who do not quite meet the criteria for the special hospitals can be accommodated in these new units and that the doctors can then forget all about them and regard the problem as solved. The special units,
1812
once they exist, must not be simply mini-Broadmoors. There must be much more in the way of an overall and flexible programme, and I frankly do not see this being brought about without some change of heart in the profession.
I had hoped to touch on one or two other recommendations—the proposal for a new form of indeterminate sentence for very grave offences, a suggestion I view with some qualms I confess, and the suggestion for a new national advisory board to oversee the working out of a consistent policy—but I have already been speaking for too long. Even so, I have only been able to scratch the surface of just a handful of some of the problems discussed in the report. I have said nothing about arrangements about discharge, about the care of violent psychopaths, about the need for research, for example, for the treatment of offenders suffering from personality disorders, or about provision for non-institutional care.
But, before I sit down, I should just like to say this: this is an area where, if you are involved, it is very tempting to hope that someone else will take on a very awkward responsibility. It is an area, too, where a mistake over one individual will achieve far more publicity overnight than any success there may be in caring for thousands of people in institutions or in the community. There are extremely difficult problems here. I am glad to have the privilege of at last initiating a discussion of the praiseworthy attempt made by the Committee in their extremely valuable report to find some answers to these problems and, as I said at the beginning, to strike a balance between the interests of the community and the interests of the individual which is fitting for a compassionate and civilised society like ours. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.

THE BRITISH STEEL CORPORATION
3.40 p.m.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I will, with permission, repeat a Statement on the British Steel Corporation being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Industry. The Statement is as follows:
"As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister told the House on 28th

1813
February, the Government have been conducting a study in depth of the medium and longer-term position of the British Steel Corporation. There has recently been much public concentration on the Corporation's likely losses in 1977–78. As I have told the House, these losses result from the worst crisis in the world steel industry for over 40 years and one in which the BSC's overseas competitors are suffering in common with the Corporation.
"Our review has now been completed. Close consultations have taken place with the Corporation and the TUC Steel Committee. We have also taken account of the reports of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. The Government's conclusions are set out in a White Paper which is being published today. A separate White Paper will be published soon giving the Government's response to the Select Committee's recommendations.
"A modern steel industry is vital to an industrial nation. The Government will therefore ensure that a substantial bulk steel-making capacity is available in this country. The BSC plays a key rôle in supplying our manufacturing industries with the major part of their steel requirements. That must continue.
"Our examination has shown that the present world surplus of steel will last for many years and that on the most optimistic assumptions the sales opportunities for BSC, both at home and overseas, on which the 10-Year Development Strategy of February 1973 was based, are no longer realistic. In present market conditions, the Corporation has substantial over-capacity. In the next few years considerable additional capacity will become available from large modernisation and expansion schemes already close to completion. A sufficient margin is essential to supply home and export needs when the world economy moves out of recession, and to provide for the unforeseen eventualities which have persistently invalidated previous forecasts. But neither the Corporation nor the country can afford the cost of the mounting over-capacity that would result from unchanged policies.
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"Accordingly, the BSC has proposed and the Government have agreed the following policies:
First, modernisation and expansion projects already approaching completion must be finished; for example Redcar II B and Ravenscraig III.
Second, substantial investment to improve product quality and so ensure competitiveness in the 1980s must continue. Subject to the conditions in the White Paper, the Corporation hopes to make a start on the installation of continuous casting facilities at Port Talbot in 1978–79.
Third, the Government have approved a proposed capital investment programme for BSC for the year 1978–79 at out-turn prices of £500 million. For the year 1979–80, subject to the normal annual review, there will be, again at out-turn prices, a further £500 million.
Fourth, there is no case at present for new starts on increased steelmaking capacity, so the proposed expansion in capacity at Port Talbot and the construction of electric are plants at Shelton, Hunterston and Ravenscraig must be deferred until demand forecasts improve sufficiently to justify their construction.
Fifth, the major and costly new mill projects for hot rolled coil at Port Talbot, plate at Teesside and tinplate in South Wales must similarly be deferred.
"For BSC to achieve financial viability, it is necessary for capacity to move more into line with demand. The Government have therefore accepted that BSC should seek to negotiate the closures in 1978–79 of high cost plants, in particular the Beswick review plants, in close consultation with the TUC Steel Committee and the local work-forces. As the House knows, terms have already been agreed for the closure of the Clyde Iron Works, the Hartlepool Steelworks and the East Moors Steelworks.
"The Government will seek to ensure that everything practical is done to provide alternative employment in the areas affected by steel-making

1815
closures. For its part, the Corporation will intensify its efforts in this direction, through its subsidiary BSC (Industry).
"The White Paper gives details of the special measures we propose at Hartlepool and East Moors. The Scottish Development Agency is already taking all practical measures to assist employment in the area affected by the closure of the Clyde iron works. The Government will announce any necessary remedial measures at other plants when closure dates have been negotiated by the BSC.
"The Government's present view is that further rationalisation will be necessary after 1978–79. However, both the Government and the BSC favour a step by step approach which will retain flexibility to adapt to developments in the market. Hasty and arbitrary decisions now could close the door to meeting future requirements.
"As the House knows, BSC faces serious financial problems. In this the Corporation is not alone among the world steel industries. The Corporation will need a substantial capital reconstruction at a reasonably early date. This will not of course affect its overseas loans which will be serviced and repaid on the due dates. In the present uncertainty in the steel market, it is very difficult to determine the precise size and nature of the reconstruction needed to produce a viable long-term capital structure. Pending that reconstruction, and in place of further advances from the National Loans Fund and of public dividend capital on the present criterion, the Government will meet BSC's financial requirements (other than short-term) by subscription of equity capital under Section 18(1) of the Iron and Steel Act 1975. These requirements include finance for capital investment, meeting obligations under National Loans Fund and other loans and covering the deficit expected to arise before reconstruction. BSC will continue to make short-term borrowings under Section 16 of the Act within the ceiling determined by the Government.
"Because of the immediate financial outlook, no dividend is expected on the new capital before the reconstruction. But I should make it clear that I will
1816
require all new capital subscribed from 1st April to be properly remunerated by dividends after the reconstruction. It would be premature to fix a minimum dividend requirement at this stage. I shall shortly present to the House legislation to raise the borrowing limit for BSC; more detailed information will then be given. We shall continue to determine the Corporation's cash limit on a year by year basis and will take into account the Corporation's physical and financial progress. For 1978–79 the cash limit will be £875 million.
"The funds required by BSC inevitably place a heavy burden on the public purse and divert resources from other desirable objectives. This can only be justified if both management and workforce can show they are taking the necessary steps to achieve the lasting viability and international competitiveness which are the Government's firm objective.
"Very substantial improvements in productivity are also needed if the Corporation is to become viable. The trade unions and local workers' representatives have a major role to play in this. The TUC Steel Committee have made clear their own commitment to achieving this improvement. For their part, the Government are determined to give full, sustained and public support to steps to achieve improved productivity in BSC and will continue to promote this with both the BSC management and the TUC Steel Committee".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
3.50 p.m.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, we thank the noble Lord, Lord Oram, for having repeated the Statement that was made in another place. It is a very long Statement and, together with the White Paper which I understand has just been published, it raises financial and technical matters, all of which must deserve close study within your Lordships' House. I am glad that the Government have as their firm objective "the lasting viability and international competitiveness" of the British steel industry.
However, looking back over the last four years I am compelled to suggest that

1817
the Government's handling of the industry has been far from reassuring. Situations have been consistently misappraised and action has been misjudged. About two years ago the Beswick Review produced a report assessing that there was an improvement in the prospects for the industry and allowing the postponement of certain painful closures. Only last year it was discovered that the BSC situation was even worse than it was before Beswick.
At a time of very high unemployment this is a most disquieting Statement. As the Statement has confirmed, we all know of the need for greater productivity in the industry. But we also know of the serious effects which carrying that out can have on jobs in the steel-making areas. I have two questions to put to the noble Lord at this point. First, can he tell the House whether this means that the Government have now abandoned the 10-Year Strategy for BSC, which was worked out before 1974? Secondly, can he give the House approximately the number of millions of pounds a day of public money which the Corporation is now losing, either today or to the latest date for which figures are available?
3.53 p.m.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, we on these Benches should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Oram, for having repeated this Statement. We welcome the fact that at long last the Government appear to have grasped the nettle of acquiescing in the closure of obsolete plants and of accepting the inevitable redundancies that will follow in areas which, for many Labour Members of Parliament, are politically very sensitive.
Speaking from some experience, if I may, I think that the British Steel Corporation is to be congratulated on the way in which it has recently set about negotiating redundancies with the trade unions concerned on a plant-by-plant basis. It is particularly to be congratulated on its pioneering work in seeking to attract new industry to the areas affected. This is an unhappy task, but in our view it must proceed if the Government are to achieve their firmly-stated objective of international competitiveness.
We have noted the step-by-step approach which is also being made to the question
1818
of capital investment—£500 million in 1978–79 and, subject to review, the same figure for 1979–80. The need to cut back on future capacity also involves this step-by-step approach. As an outsider it is not easy to form a judgment as to the appropriate figure, but in selecting these figures it is at least reassuring to learn that the Government are acting on the recommendation of the Steel Corporation.
In the White Paper which has just appeared it is acknowledged that the productivity of the Steel Corporation compares unfavourably with that of international competitors. Stress is placed on putting that right. One has had only a brief opportunity to look at this. I should like to ask the noble Lord this question: In so far as this means dealing with over-manning, is it the intention to give generous redundancy payments not only to workers at plants which are to be closed, but to those at plants not to be so dealt with?
Finally, at the end of the White Paper it says that it is essential for the country as a whole to understand the problem and to support the remedies, and to help in the achievement of a common objective of a competitive, profitable, efficient steel industry. That leads me to ask one general question which could equally well be addressed to the Conservative Front Bench. Does not the future of this industry present one of those major national problems about which it would be helpful if the Government of the day, in the interests of continuity of policy, were to involve the Opposition Parties, perhaps by building on the recent development that there has been—particularly in the case of steel—of the Parliamentary Select Committe procedure? Further, should not this be done before, and not after, decisions are taken on such basic matters as the future size of the industry and its investment plans?
3.57 p.m.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I should like to thank the two noble Lords for their comments and questions. As the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, rightly said, the Statement was a very long one and, although the White Paper is not long, it needs study together with the Statement which I have repeated. On that I entirely agree with the noble

1819
Lord. But beyond that I incline to disagree with him because he sought to make a Party point with regard to what he called the Government's handling of the industry and how the Government had been guilty of misappraisal and misjudgment in these matters. This surprises me a little, coming from a supporter of the Government that was in power in 1973 and which produced a White Paper which also turned out to be a serious misjudgment of the future. But I would not have sought to make that as a Party point because, clearly, developments such as the world oil crisis and the degree to which international trade has slumped were matters which any Government could be excused for not being able to foresee. The situation since 1973 has been full of difficulties as regards accurate forecasting.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, asked specifically whether the Statement which I repeated implies the abandonment of the 10-Year Strategy which was contained in the 1973 White Paper to which I have referred. I think that I can best answer that by repeating one sentence from the Statement, in paragraph 4. It says:
"Our examination has shown that the present world surplus of steel will last for many years and that on the most optimistic assumptions the sales opportunities for BSC, both at home and overseas, on which the 10-Year Development Strategy of February 1973 was based, are no longer realistic."
So, since those forecasts were unrealistic, obviously a reassessment of policy has been necessary. The noble Lord then asks for a statement of the losses in the current year, which has not quire run out. But it is, of course, as is widely known, a very serious situation indeed, and the loss is estimated at £520 million which, since he wants it in daily terms, is the equivalent of over £1 million a day.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, put his finger on an important point when he referred to the negotiations that are necessary between the BSC and the TUC Steel Committee. I would agree that much will depend on the success of these negotiations. He called attention to what is described in the White Paper and in the Statement as the step by step approach. I think that is a particular point that needs stressing. That is the
1820
approach that the Government and the BSC now take, maintaining a degree of flexibility and watching the situation as it develops.
He then referred to the problem of over-manning, which is dealt with in the White Paper as he indicated, and asks whether the degree and method of redundancy in plants which are not to be closed will be dealt with as well as in those which are closed. My understanding is that throughout all the plants these matters of redundancy will be the subject of these negotiations, on which the White Paper lays considerable stress, between the management and the trade union movement, and I am glad to say that, as the noble Lord indicated, the spirit in which these negotiations seem likely to be conducted is a good and responsible one, and bodes well for the future.

MENTALLY ABNORMAL OFFENDERS
Debate resumed.
4.2 p.m.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, turning to the Motion before your Lordships' House, I am sure that your Lordships would wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for giving us this opportunity to debate the report of the Committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders. The first remark one has to make is that it is indeed a formidable report which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and his colleagues have produced for the consideration of the Government and indeed of the community. It embraces not only the classification and identification of mental disorders but also pre-trial, trial, and after trial treatment of offenders.
All these stages are discussed, and far-reaching proposals and recommendations are made. We are fortunate that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is in the list of speakers. We shall listen with interest to what he has to tell us, not just about his report but perhaps about any change of opinion or emphasis which he may have reached as a result of events since the report was published. As the noble Lord, Lord Allen, has said, the

1821
subject is much too large to enable one to do more than discuss one or two aspects of the report. I am sure that one of the more disturbing aspects of the present situation is the treatment of persons who may not present any outward manifestation of mental disorder, and who may go through the criminal process without any disorder being perceived or recognised.
Putting the matter shortly, the Committee recommend that there should be a more efficient pre-trial screening system, partly by the use of social inquiry reports. It is said that such could point to signs of mental disorder and indicate the need for a full psychiatric report. I am hound to say from my own experience in the courts that it very often happened, either when one was prosecuting and read the police report or when one was defending and was confronted by one's instructions, and even by one's client, that the thought did cross one's mind that perhaps all might not be well mentally—and I do not mean merely by the defence which one was being urged to put forward in his favour. But there was nothing—and I am sure the position still obtains—that one could really do about it.
One has frequently been left with the uncomfortable thought that a person has been dealt with by a court who either should not have been dealt with in that way or, even worse, should never have been put before a court, so that a recommendation such as this has far-reaching importance. Having said that, one has to take the social worker and the social inquiry report which he produces as one finds them. In most cases they are already gravely overworked, and it is difficult enough for judges or magistrates to obtain a social inquiry report of any kind, let alone to be able to obtain one possibly on a suspicion of a police officer, or somebody, that there is mental trouble. I fear very much that, if this method of screening was adopted, it would require far greater financial resources and more expertise than are available at the moment. I expect to hear the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, say when he comes to wind up this debate, as he will say about many of the recommendations in this report, that in times of financial stringency such as these there is little that can be done other than the identification of need and the establishment of priorities.
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I am glad that so far as the pre-trial stage is concerned the report recommends that what I might term Section 136 procedure should be used more frequently than it is at present. The object is, of course, to keep out of court offenders who inevitably will require psychiatric treatment. The report rightly points out that regard has to be had for the public interest, especially where the offence is serious. If I may point a minor finger of criticism at the report and its recommendations, I am not sure that the Committee had quite the regard for the public interest that one would like to see in such circumstances.
One can think of examples all too easily where too much regard might be had for the individual and not enough for the public interest. There are many cases which might come to mind by way of example. A fairly trivial one might be a case, for instance, of indecent assault. It might well be the case where, if the offender was not produced and dealt with by a court in whatever manner, public opinion might be unjustifiably yet understandably outraged by what it might consider to be a cover-up of the offender, even if that offender was mentally ill, by reason of the fact that he had not been dealt with in a court of law which is, or should be, empowered to make the right and proper decision as to his future.
I turn briefly to the trial stage. I am sure that many will welcome the replacement of the unfit to plead procedure by that of being, as it is called, under a disability. One of the difficulties has always been that an alleged offender may be put into a mental hospital without trial if he was found to be unfit to plead. And it is surely sensible to provide for a trial even if, at the end of it, the defendant is found under a disability. Equally satisfactory is the replacement or apparent replacement of the M'Naghten rules by the special new verdict of not guilty on the evidence of mental disorder.
As the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, said, the M'Naghten rules have in the past caused a great deal of difficulty, not least to practitioners, and their effects could well, so far as the individual is concerned, be capricious. If these recommendations are accepted, it will I think make it easier for a defendant who intends to rely on this defence to

1823
give the Crown the required notice which the Committee recommends, which I wholeheartedly endorse. Furthermore, he can give advance warning of the type of evidence that will be adduced to put forward his propositions—that is, evidence of a psychiatric nature—and, generally, the defendant will be able to put forward his case, if not in agreement, at least with a form of agreement with the Crown, so that something in the nature of an agreed case is put forward for the consideration of the judge.
I say this because, from my practice, I always remarked that the liaison, if that is the word, between the Crown and the defence was frequently non-existent and indeed on a number of occasions in my experience there was hostility, particularly if the prosecution thought that the defence had thought up an ingenious scheme to enable the defendant to escape what might otherwise be a long prison sentence. This suspicious attitude on the part of the Crown might well be compounded, and frequently was, when the expert giving evidence, however distinguished, was well known for his or her aversion to bringing mentally unsound offenders to a criminal court at all, and was even less willing that they should have to undergo the burden of a conviction. Any proposition that is put forward to reduce the strain on the defendant and at the same time convince the court of his state of mind with the least possible trouble should, in my view, be pursued.
I come finally to the position of the mentally ill once they have been disposed of by the courts, and I do not have to dwell on the fact that, generally speaking, our prisons are grossly overcrowded and that the position is not getting any better. What is alarming is the number of the mentally ill who are in prisons, and I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, what are the present figures and what is the trend? One would like to know whether the situation is getting better or worse or whether it is static. Last autumn, a figure appeared in the Press of 900 prison inmates who would be better off in psychiatric hospitals rather than behind bars. I should emphasise that the figure of 900 is the figure at any one time; it was made up, supposedly, of 400 persons
1824
mentally ill, 200 subnormal and 300 psychopaths—that is to say, grossly irresponsible or abnormally agressive persons.
Even graver is the thought that some mentally disordered offenders are denied psychiatric treatment because, by reason of their disruptive records, they are denied admission to National Health Service psychiatric hospitals. One understands and sympathises with the difficulties of the staff and the objections they have to such persons being admitted to their hospitals. Nevertheless, it is disturbing that the figure should be so high. One realises that planning permission poses problems for health authorities when trying to establish new places. Would the position be ameliorated in the Government's view by the setting up of regional secure units as recommended in the report, with all that that of course entails? If such units were set up, a number of those at present in open conditions could be transferred, which would increase the protection given to the public, and if the level of mentally disturbed patients in prisons were reduced, I suggest that that would lessen the strain on the prison service.
However, there are some formidable and some less formidable objections to these centres, some of which Lord Allen touched on. The regional secure units themselves would need the appropriate nursing staff, who would have to be attracted by favourable conditions of work and pay and would probably want a fairly substantial differential as between secure units and the ordinary hospital. All in all, I suggest that these units will need massive amounts of finance and I imagine the noble Lord would agree that they are for the future, if at all, and that what the Government must deal with now is the present overcrowding and neglect. Is it the Government's intention—I echo the question addressed by Lord Allen—to set up the national advisory body recommended in the report to keep the situation under review,
"to report where problems are arising and to assist towards solutions".
In the end, I believe interim measures will have to be provided while longer-term solutions are planned and financed. In the meantime, the community is greatly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Butler,

1825
and his Committee for their thorough review of what must be a disturbing social picture and for practical suggestions and recommendations as to how the community should go about solving these many and difficult problems.
4.17 p.m.
Lord WINSTANLEY: My Lords, noble Lords will be deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for his initiative in giving us an opportunity to debate this really vital topic. Not only does it allow noble Lords who are experts in this field, with vast experience and expertise, to place their views on the record and give us the benefit of hearing them; it may also, as time will perhaps show, extract some information from the Government about their intentions.
We know, and have already been told, that we are shortly to expect a White Paper with green edges regarding amendments to the Mental Health Act 1959. I have not noticed that either the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, or the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, are clutching White Papers with green edges or indeed with edges of any other hue, but I hope they may have at hand all the information that will be contained in the White Paper and that perhaps before the day is over they may let us into the secret. That makes me wonder whether it would have been more helpful if we could have changed our procedures to enable us to hear the Ministers before we speak; that could perhaps have made this occasion doubly valuable, because we could then have commented on what is actually going to happen rather than on what we hope will happen.
I should begin by saying clearly that in my view no amount of administrative manoeuvring within the constraints of the present inadequacies of resources in this whole field can make any real and satisfactory difference to the plight of those we have in mind—and by that I mean the patients and those responsible for them. Whatever we do will make no difference unless radical and urgent action is taken with regard to essentials—matters like premises, facilities, staff, equipment and resources generally in this whole sphere. If anyone entertains doubts that there are inadequacies with regard to hospitals and other premises, I should
1826
perhaps remind them that, in this connection, the EEC Commission on Human Rights is at present investigating the overcrowding and inadequacy at Broad-moor, and there are other institutions which are perhaps no better.
There are also in various parts of the country serious inadequacies regarding staff. My use of the word "inadequacies" is no reflection at all on the staff in those places; they work under very grave difficulties. Here, I should like to make a further point, but I do so with some caution because I am anxious not to be misunderstood. I have on many occasions spoken in your Lordships' House on behalf of overseas doctors, who have made an immense contribution to our National Health Service. But it really is difficult in certain areas of the country if almost all the psychiatrists happen to be foreign doctors with certain language difficulties. Here the difficulty in psychiatric treatment is not the difficulty of the patient understanding the doctor; it is the very real fear which the patient sometimes has about whether the doctor can really understand him. I shall not go any further on that matter, save to say that there are grave deficiencies in our resources, and whatever we do in altering statutes and amending the Mental Health Act 1959, or making various other administrative changes will not really put matters right unless we attend—and attend rapidly—to the basic essentials.
I now move on to the Report of the Committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders, by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, and his colleagues, which we are here to discuss. The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, refers to the implementation of the outstanding recommendations made in the report, which would appear to imply that very large chunks of the Butler Report have in fact already been implemented. I regret to say that that does not seem, at least to me, to be the case. For my own personal knowledge I can itemise only two matters on which any real progress seems to have been made. First, some progress has been made in the establishment of regional secure units. But so far as I know—I am open to correction—there are only two so far, and they are of an interim rather than final nature. One of them is on Merseyside, the other in Surrey.

1827
Secondly, it seems to me that a little progress has perhaps been made with the establishment of the Advisory Board on Restricted Patients, which arose from a recommendation contained in the Aarvold Report. But I should add that the proceedings of that board are secret. In addition, it may be thought by some that its activities duplicate the functions of certain other bodies.
Having said that, I should not like it to be thought that this enlightened, comprehensive, and immensely valuable report which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and his colleagues have produced has had no other effect; of course it has. There is no doubt at all that it has brought about changes in the climate of thought in this whole field, which I hope will themselves prove to have had some impact on the Government's plans, of which we hope to hear more later in the debate.
Obviously, we shall have to debate real proposals in due course; so I believe it would not be helpful if here and now I went into further details on these matters. But, before sitting down, I should like, briefly, to go through one or two matters partly arising from the Butler Report and partly emerging from this field as a whole, and related to the Butler Report, which I very much hope will be enshrined in the forthcoming legislation when it appears.
First, undoubtedly, we must look very carefully at all the procedures in relation to the mental health review tribunals. As I believe Mind—the National Association for Mental Health—has made clear over and over again, there are serious deficiencies in the way in which these mental health review tribunals work. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, and his colleagues have drawn attention to some of these deficiencies, and attention has also been drawn to them by other people in other places. I hope that the whole working of these tribunals would be looked at again. I hope that there will also be considered the securing of easy access to these tribunals by persons who are detained, whether under Section 25, 26, 29, 136 and, of course, the vital Sections 60 and 65 of the Mental Health Act. One should like to feel that all these people had easy and regular access to the tribunal. I should also like to see certain of the procedures of the tribunals changed. Much is said
1828
about this by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and has been said by others, too. In particular, I should like to see efforts made to ensure that, when the tribunals sit, the persons dependent upon them hear a very early decision, accompanied by the reasons which have brought about the decision.
In this connection, I should like to add a point which is certainly not contained in the Butler Report. In so far as the decision is a recommendation of the Home Secretary, and since his recommendation is made on the basis of the mental health review tribunal's actual proceedings, one wonders whether something could be done to make the Home Secretary's decision in these situations accountable, or more accountable, in some way.
Secondly, I should also like to see in the coming legislation progress towards a radical review of all the procedures whereby patients are compulsorily admitted to, or detained in, hospitals. I do not want to go into details here. Noble Lords who have already spoken have pointed to odd aspects of this matter, but the various sections of the Mental Health Act 1959 are highly complex. Very often there are patients detained in hospital who, frankly, have no idea whether they are detained under any particular section at all, or if they are, which section it is and precisely what it means. Sometimes a patient is not able to understand these matters, but frequently I have had to deal with relatives who ask questions about this and it has been very difficult to get them the answers.
I now move to my third point which I should like to see enshrined in the coming legislation with regard to the M'Naghten rules. Many years ago in another place I endeavoured to introduce a Private Member's Bill to do away with these rules, or to change them, but like most Private Members' Bills, it met the fate of running out of time. But I recollect that I was supported at that time by many distinguished lawyers who were cosponsors—Mr. Mark Carlisle, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, and Mr. Sam Silkin, as he then was—and, when I remember who Mr. Sam Silkin now is, my hopes rise as to what may follow from the review which is being carried out.

1829
The noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbey-dale, pointed to many of the disadvantages of the M'Naghten rules, as did the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. I have never had any doubts about this, and looking back into the record it is interesting to note that in 1874—although I know things have changed since then—Lord Bramwell, giving evidence to the Select Committee on the Homicide Law Amendment Bill in June, 1874 said,
"the present law lays down such a definition of madness that nobody is hardly ever really mad enough to be within it".
We have made vast improvements and great changes, and it is true that we had an improvement in that direction in the Homicide Act of 1957, which brought in the new principle of diminished responsibility. In that regard, I was inclined to agree with an eminent authority, Dr. Howard Jones, who, in his excellent book Crime and the Penal System, said:
"Many will feel that the procedure by which insane persons can be sentenced to prison for manslaughter is hardly a satisfactory final solution".
The noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbey-dale, quoted a case, and I should like to refer to another. It was a case of a young man of 17 years of age, who was convicted of murder. At the time, many people thought that he was suffering from schizophrenia, as I think he probably was. However, he did not plead insanity, quite understandably. There was no prospect of his being executed in view of his age, and presumably he preferred prison to Broadmoor. He went to prison, and within two years he had murdered another prisoner. It was a case in which our second line of defence—and I know we have a second line of defence; that of the various methods of examination of prisoners prior to and following sentence—had in fact broken down. That is no criticism of the people involved, but I think it points to serious defects in the rules as they then were.
Some years ago I made a point, which with leave I should like to repeat now, with regard to the horrible case of Christie, the multiple murderer. There is no question at all that Christie was M'Naghten sane, as one might say; and Christie was in fact executed. But if Christie's peculiarities and mental abnormalities had resulted, not in the death of his victims but in those victims being
1830
maimed, he would undoubtedly not have produced a plea of insanity and the prosecution would not have had the right to introduce that plea. He would then have had to be sentenced to prison for a violent offence, and, necessarily on the basis of our law as it then was, the sentence would have had to be a finite sentence, which would have come to an end with his release. Now I know that there is a longstop and that there are other methods of examination, and so on, which are very important; but I think that this example and others which have been quoted perhaps point to some of the difficulties which have arisen over very many years from the general concept of the M'Naghten rules.
I have made those particular points because I am not inclined wholly to agree with the report of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, which I think reiterates that the onus of introducing the question of the mental state of the accused person should be laid clearly and definitely on the defence. It would seem to me that, where the mental condition of the alleged offender is in issue, either side ought to have the right, and indeed the duty, to introduce that, with, of course, proper safeguards.
Let me move on very briefly to my fourth point. I hope we shall also be looking, not only at the rights of people who are being taken to hospital compulsorily but at the rights of patients when they are detained in hospital. By those rights, I am referring to matters such as the right to receive and write letters and the right to receive visitors; and perhaps in certain cases we might even think again about the right to vote, which is taken arbitrarily and totally from persons who are detained in hospital in that way. Finally, I think we shall have to deal, and deal carefully, with the very delicate and very difficult matter of compulsory treatment. I do not want to go into any detail about this now, but I know that it is in many people's minds, and it will have to be thought about. I know that the intention when a person is detained for treatment is that he should receive treatment, but I myself feel a little uneasy about any kind of movement towards a situation in which individuals, whatever their mental state, are compelled to receive treatment when clearly their wish is not to receive it.

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My Lords, I think that is enough from me. I hope that later in this debate we shall hear things in which I shall be very interested, from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and from the noble Lord, Lord Harris; and I shall now wait to hear the contributions of other noble Lords, to which I shall listen with great interest. Finally, let me thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, once again for his initiative in giving us this opportunity to have a look at a really urgent matter. Perhaps I should also thank the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, for, in a delicate way, pointing to a strain of caution, which is necessary in this field and which perhaps shows the extent of the difficulties with which we are faced, and the kind of conflicts which inevitably arise when one has to consider the well-being of a human being as an individual and the safety of the public among whom he lives and to whom, we hope, he will be able some day to return.
4.34 p.m.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just spoken has paid generous tribute to various speakers, and I join him in those tributes and add his name to theirs. It is an unqualified privilege to speak after the noble Lord, Lord Allen, whose services over such a wide area are unsurpassed in our time. It is a privilege, qualified by a certain trepidation, to speak just before the noble Lord, Lord Butler. The last time I spoke in his presence, in St. Margaret's, Westminster, he came up to me afterwards, paid me some guarded compliment and then said, "It is a pity they do not put microphones in here". I looked at him askance, and he said, "Of course, I could hear perfectly but I was sitting in the front row." That, I think, is what is called a Butlerism; I think he has become famous for that kind of compliment. At any rate, I speak in front of him; and another reason for trepidation is that I am going to be critical, to say the least, about one aspect of his proposals—the regional secure units—not from the theoretical point of view but from the point of view of practical implementation. But I hasten to say that, of course, his whole report goes far wider than that and deals with many matters of profound significance in a most impressive style.
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Coming to these regional secure units, I have given some notice of my line of thought to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and I suppose, to put it in its simplest way, that I am going to ask him to tell us whether this idea of the regional secure units has been quietly dropped overboard. Perhaps you do not drop a thing quietly overboard and announce that you are quietly dropping it overboard: one process would defeat the other. At any rate, will the noble Lord say whether the Government are going on seriously at all with these regional secure units? That is the main point that I want to place before him.
Now, like other noble Lords, in trying to prepare myself for this debate I have made one or two inquiries on the spot. I visited Broadmoor, for example, not by any means for the first time. There I found Dr. McGrath, the formidable superintendent who has served the State so well in that capacity for over 20 years, a strong supporter of the Butler proposals for regional secure units. He told me that they would greatly reduce the pressure on Broadmoor, and would act both as a filter and a buffer. They would siphon off a number of disturbed patients who are now sent to Broadmoor because they are too difficult for the ordinary mental hospitals to handle; and, at the other end, they would take over many patients who are ready to leave Broadmoor but whom the mental hospitals are at present too nervous to accept.
What shocks Dr. McGrath—and I really do not think he would mind my quoting him, though of course he is a serving superintendent—is the failure of the regional health authorities to push on with the construction of these secure units. He gave me a table, which I think has been published, which shows how, disgracefully enough, the funds allocated by the Ministry for this precise purpose have either not been used at all or have been used in other ways. If we accept the point, for the sake of argument, that these secure units are highly desirable then somebody has to be blamed for their nonappearance; and from that point of view perhaps the noble Lord will explain what has gone wrong. Various explanations were offered while I was at Broadmoor, and have been since. There was the usual accusation of bureaucracy, and I am quite ready to join in that sort of accusation, at

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any rate while I am not likely to be in any responsible position. Then, of course, the difficulties with the local communities and the hospital staff were also mentioned.
What I had not anticipated—the noble Lord who spoke last would know all about this, but some noble Lords would not—was the blame bestowed by the forensic psychiatrists on their non-forensic brethren, who are, of course, the great majority of psychiatrists. I do not know whether all noble Lords here can tell a forensic psychiatrist from a non-forensic psychiatrist at sight, but at any rate that distinction was made. I know, of course, that the noble Lord, Lord Stone, would; but, then, he understands everything in the medical world, including the nature of my own mental and physical difficulties.
Lord STONE: But not that, my Lords.
The Earl of LONGFORD: At any rate, my Lords, we were told that the enthusiasm of the non-forensic psychiatrists for these units is very tepid, and yet no one—certainly no one at Broadmoor—doubted that the great liberalisation in the mental hospitals, which we all welcome, had left a whole category of dangerous men for whom security remains necessary. At present, apart from the special hospitals such as Broadmoor, there is nowhere to send them except prison, and yet everyone at Broadmoor, and I think most people, including noble Lords and Ministers, would agree that sick people, in Dr. McGrath's words, should not be imprisoned. We are talking about sick people. On the face of it, therefore, after a visit to Broadmoor, one would if that was the full extent of one's inquiries, emerge with the view that one should go full steam ahead with secure regional units and denounce everybody who drags his feet or stands in the way.
After that, I visited Knowle Hospital Special Unit but, after coming back from Knowle Hospital Special Unit, I am afraid that I found myself more rather than less confused. I had been at pains to find, with the help of the Ministry, a secure regional unit on the lines suggested by the Butler Report. The Ministry had done their best for us. I gather that Knowle had more to offer than anywhere else. I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, is familiar with what is
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going on at Knowle. He mentioned one other unit but I am not sure that he mentioned Knowle. Certainly, the Wessex Region seems to have spent more than any other region of the funds which were earmarked by the Ministry for the purpose.
I was shown the Knowle Special Unit with 14 beds and I was much impressed with the way that things were being done; but it was a far cry from this little unit to the kind of unit which is recommended by Lord Butler. The first thing that struck me about Knowle—which was the special unit that I was assisted by the Ministry to visit—was that the door of the unit was not locked. It soon transpired that in no physical sense was the unit more secure than the average ward in a hospital. I was told, however, that the unit was secure in a different sense, not in a physical sense but another sense, because of the high ratio of staff. There were, in fact, 13 nurses to 14 patients. This ratio was apparently much higher than in a mental hospital or a general hospital, or in Broadmoor.
In a document handed to me by the Knowle psychiatrist, it was revealed that more than two-thirds of the patients were voluntary. Therefore, the unit cannot be said to be dealing primarily with the problem of delinquents, the problem we are discussing today. It was dealing mostly with voluntary patients. So, taking this hospital, which was recommended to me as a good field of study, it was difficult, if not impossible, to recognise this as the kind of secure unit which was envisaged in the Butler Report. So, to the best of my belief, there is no such unit in the country at the present time.
I should add—and it is perhaps of rather more long-term importance—that those whom I spoke to at the hospital, including the excellent shop stewards, were highly critical of the Butler proposals in this matter. I am sorry to say this in front of the noble Lord, Lord, Butler but that is perhaps more chivalrous than to say it behind his back. In any case, he follows me on the list of speakers and can therefore put it right.
Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN: My Lords, if the noble Earl is basing his observations on what he saw there, it was nothing to do with my report and I can accept no responsibility.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden—
Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN: My Lords, I am very interested in the noble Earl's argument and I hope that he will continue.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, I was going to do so whether or not the noble Lord hoped that I would. The shop stewards, I am afraid, said flatly that they were utterly against the Butler approach. In that sense, whether they were right or the noble Lord was right, I am only telling him that the shop stewards were very critical of the approach. They were enthusiastic about the liberalisation. In saying that, I am not saying that these gentlemen are infallible but only what these gentlemen recommended to me by the Ministry actually told me. They were very enthusiastic about the liberalisation which has come to mental hospitals since the Mental Health Act. They said that to introduce the old restrictionism in any new unit established on the lines, they thought, of the Butler proposals would be putting the clock back and should not be tolerated for a moment. That is what the Government must cope with on the ground if they try to apply these criteria. Even if there were no such thing as bureaucratic inertia, the Government have a difficult problem in that situation. It was brought home to me that this new unit, like others being set up elsewhere, was an interim measure. Lord Butler had envisaged larger units. The psychiatrist in charge was ready for something somewhat larger than at present but nothing on the scale of Butler.
Since that time, I have come to feel that the failure to produce the so-called "Butler units"—and I am sorry if the word is inappropriate; but I am sure that the noble Lord will not mind my using it—may be due to something deeper than bureaucratic inertia. I am sure that bureaucratic inertia plays its part and, given half a chance, operates all too strongly. This is what I am putting to the Minister—and I went to see only one place but I gather that there is nothing sensibly better to be seen—can it truly be said that a real agreement on the desirable kind of unit as envisaged by Lord Butler has yet been reached, quite apart
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from the construction of the unit; or is it on the point of being reached among the various parties concerned?
In some bewilderment at this stage, I consulted MIND, which some of us think of in connection with the National Association for Mental Health who have done such fine work over the whole field of mental disorder and of which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is the honoured President. I will not begin to summarise the considered opinion of MIND regarding abnormal offenders in general. They had many laudatory things to say about the Butler Report. They say, for example:
"It suggested rather impressive reforms in terms of prevention, rehabilitation and after-care improvements in the conditions for, and treatment of, the range of people who are called abnormal offenders'."
I am sure that all that is very very true. But in regard to the regional units, they are much more reserved. I am quoting from MIND who, I believe, are described as the campaigning aspect of the National Association for Mental Health. They say that the evidence which comes from the Clancy Committee set up by the DHSS demonstrates that the regional secure units are not in the least likely to draw many people who would otherwise be going to the special hospitals. They say:
"If the regional secure units immediately become cluttered up with people from ordinary psychiatric hospitals they are obviously going to be of very little help to special hospital patients and to prisoners."
If MIND are right, then the dream of the good people of Broadmoor that these regional secure units are going to make life easier for them is a fantasy. The real problem, as MIND sees it, is that local hospitals at the present time—and I think this is drawing towards what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley—are given very little help in coping with difficult patients. So MIND would firmly recommend that the resources should be concentrated as far as possible on the assistance of the local psychiatric hospitals—and may I add what I am sure would be their view—and on providing much more adequate resources for the special hospitals and for psychiatric facilities in prisons.
I found total scepticism when I was at the Knowle hospital about the after-care

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which is provided at present for mental patients. Certainly my experience of after-care provided at special hospitals or in prisons leads me to the same conclusion. If there are resources available, I hope that a high proportion will be devoted to after-care.
That does not mean that MIND feel that all progress with the special secure units should be stopped; they think that there should be experiments made in that field. But, certainly, their general point of view (which I share) is that there are other claims which are more insistent. We are all aware that in matters of this kind there can be no absolute certainty and no abstract standards of perfection.
Differences of opinion on exactly how to treat an abnormal patient will not be resolved in the near future. Indeed, they never will be. I am all for experiment of different kinds; but it would be unforgivable to use these differences of opinion, which are certainly going to persist, as an excuse for further procrastination in the development of our treatment of abnormal offenders. These abnormal offenders are always going to present a very perplexing problem, particularly in young ones, so it is not dogmatism on my part or on the part of any noble Lord here. Let us conduct these experiments; let us continue the arguments; but, above all, let us push on much faster in providing the resources that are so badly needed for dealing with abnormal offenders.
4.51 p.m.
Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN: My Lords, I join with other noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Allen of Abbeydale for the kind tribute that he paid to our report. Listening to the speech of my noble friend Lord Longford one would think that it was my report alone. As a matter of fact, two particularly learned justices were on the Committee; namely, judges, as was the best and most well-known psychiatrist or doctor in Britain, Sir Denis Hill. At any rate, he is head of the Maudsley Hospital and did a distinguished job. It consisted of psychiatrists from the North of England and from the South. It consisted of many other magistrates, and it consisted of people who
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joined with us in a unanimous report. Therefore, I am greatly interested in the noble Lord's arguments and I must take them as representing my colleagues' as well as my own.
I was very interested in my noble friend Lord Mansfield's speech with which I largely agree. It is clear he has special knowledge from the Bench which has helped him in giving his arguments. I hope that noble Lords from the Liberal Benches will be answered by the Government, because some of the points were not in our report. They deserve attention, but the question is whether they can all be reached today. In the case of the speech of my noble friend Lord Allen of Abbeydale, he covered most of the subject so I shall not attempt to do that myself. I should like to stress the importance of our formula in relation to the M'Naghten rules. The M'Naghten rules are very old now—they date back to 1843.
I may as well refer to that now. When I went to see Mr. Maudling as Home Secretary, he referred to the case of Graham Young, a dangerous lunatic, to which my noble friend referred. I think he thought he would appoint a nice little Committee under me to get him out of political trouble about Graham Young and that would be the end of the subject. I was perhaps foolishly sitting on a particularly comfortable sofa, which I have never sat on since, nor have I ever been in the Secretary of State's room at the Home Office, or in any Minister's room in either office, Social Security or Home Office, since.
I was astonished when I received the real remit of what we had to look at. It was very much broader. It contained not only a reference to the criminal law as we know it, and the question of whether the word "insanity" is or is not out of date, whether we should base defence on mens rea, which would take me some two hours to explain, except to the noble and learned Lord, the ex-Lord Chancellor, sitting opposite. It entailed a great deal of not exactly criticism but desire for revision of the famous Mental Health Act. I, as a Conservative, helped to frame that Act and I often spoke about it both in the House and over the country. It is a magnificent Act but I think needing revision. Those were what we were faced with. I will take the M'Naghten rules

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first. I promise to come to these wonderful units; and also I promise to come to other subjects in a minute or two. The formula that we adopted in dealing with the M'Naghten rules is in paragraph 18.18 on page 222 of the report. It says that insanity being out of date
"We propose that the new formula for the special verdict should be not guilty on evidence of mental disorder'."
This is based on certain elements which are referred to in the previous paragraph, and the whole problem of mens rea and such technicalities, is referred to in paragraph 18.20 onwards. For noble Lords who are interested, I recommend them to look at those parts of the report.
What is important is that before we came to this decision on altering the M'Naghten rules and changing the criminal law for the first time for over 150 years, we consulted the Law Lords. We consulted the Lords Justices of Appeal and, in particular, we consulted Lord Justice Ormrod, whom I saw again before this debate to see whether he still agreed with our decision. In each case the Law Lords, starting with hesitation, came round to our point of view. In one of these paragraphs that I have quoted there is a statement by Lord Denning. I am afraid that, like some of the statements of geniuses, we did not quite agree with it; but the fact is that the noble Lord, Lord Denning, is himself an expert on mental disorder and we also consulted him. So much for the M'Naghten rules.
I also want to refer to certain medical definitions which were given by Sir Denis Hill and which are very important. Those are on page 229 of the report. It says in paragraph 18.35:
"A mental illness is severe when it has one or more of the following characteristics …".
Then the characteristics are set out and noble Lords can follow, if they so desire, the details lying behind our decision on the M'Naghten rules and our decision on the definition of mental illness. Those are in the report, and it is a clear one.
I have been told that the paragraphs of the report are some of the clearest ever written. I do not know whether to believe that. I should like to express my thanks to the secretariat, Mr. A. W. Glanville, and Miss M. Purvis. We dispensed with all shorthand and so we were
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probably one of the cheapest Royal Commissions ever reporting. The only expense was incurred because, for some reason—which I did not understand—the Home Office had to hire some premises. We had some pork pies and a few rolls of bread for lunch; otherwise I do not think we imposed a great deal of expense on the public. We raised in the end, I am afraid, a great many recommendations.
What I should like to do before I go into some of them is to say this to the noble Lord the Minister. Since the Education Act of 1944 I have managed to keep close contact and to be allowed to criticise and talk with every Minister of Education right up-to-date. I have even been asked to lunch by Shirley Williams. I have discussed what I hope will be reforms in certain directions. I shall probably be in agreement with them, and when they come forward I will be speaking here about them. I have also been in touch very closely on Treasury matters with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom I invited to one of my final dinners at Trinity College. He expressed great joy that on that very day he had exceeded my length of term of office of over four years by one day. I hope that he will be successful because it is essential to destroy and kill inflation.
I must say to the noble Lords, Lord Harris of Greenwich, and Lord Wells-Pestell, that although I have met them of course before in other incarnations, I should like to meet them and their Ministers and see a little more, for example, of the work of the Minister of Social Security. I can always get my way into the Home Office by devious means, having been there for five whole years running, and I am provided with a lot of useful information. I know roughly what is going on there. But I do not even know where the back door is at the Elephant and Castle. So it is very difficult to keep proper contact. I hope that some arrangement might be made by which we might have a consultation, and into that consultation, which would be perfectly simple, could be included, for example, some of the doubts of the noble Lord.
The real truth of the final terms of reference we were given was that there was a growing realisation of the need to reappraise the operation of Part V of the Mental Health Act 1959—that is the powers and facilities available for dealing with

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mentally disordered offenders, and power to protect the public at the same time. That matter has been referred to by three noble Lords who have spoken. It was a most daunting task and, while we took three years, I must say to the Government that they have taken practically three years—there are still a few months to run—before giving us any satisfaction whatever.
I think it is now time that the country woke up to the fact that certain things and certain news may be very exciting, but that certain politics and certain difficulties may be very embarrassing for the Government. But my noble friend who opened the debate and I, and those who are speaking, are dealing with the most abject and lowest portion of the population who are, in my opinion, being badly neglected by us all. Therefore, the fact that my noble friend has brought forward this debate is vital to the country as a whole. To be mentally afflicted is bad enough, but if you read the report of the Royal Commission on Hanging and see the brilliant language used there by the then secretary, Mr. Graham Harrison—probably the most brilliant man in the Home Office—you will see that there are many people who also have mental disorder. I shall have to disagree later with my noble friend Lord Longford on the subject of how to deal with certain people called psychopaths.
There are some topics to which he attached particular weight. The problem of the psychopath is one that appeared out of the operation of Part V of the 1959 Act. It is certainly one of the most intractable and perplexing questions one could deal with. The problem was: how should we deal with the psychopath? First, we have to try to find who he is. If we were to ask Dr. Johnson, we might get an answer, but I cannot think of anyone living who could give an answer. Dr. Johnson, when asked "What is poetry?" said,
"Well, sir, tis much easier to say what it is not. We all know what light is but it is not easy to tell what it is."
It is not easy to tell what a psychopathic disorder is and, as the Ministers who represent that Department know, their officials feel very great doubt about the position of the psychopath. It is certainly a great problem.
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I claim that the existence of psychopathic disorder is inferred from serious irresponsible or abnormal aggressive conduct. I daresay that when my noble friend Lord Longford was being led round by Dr. McGrath, he may have been warned, for example: "That gentleman over there might suddenly hit you because he is aggressive and dangerous: he is in fact a psychopath." Dr. McGrath and his friends are so clever that, on the whole, they manage to look after most of them; but these are singularly dangerous and unpleasant people.
This uncertainty of identification is often difficult to discern, and is paralleled by continuing uncertainty as to the proper way to deal with it. Some measure of success is claimed for certain methods of behaviour modification in some local hospitals, and no doubt we should like to try that. The Committee formed the view that a dangerous psychopath of the more aggressive type has no place in local psychiatric hospitals and that, while the option of a hospital order should not be discarded for psychopathic offenders in general, the modification of their behaviour as the object of treatment is more likely to be attained within the penal system than within hospital. That is where I am now approaching my noble friend's doubts and worries.
With these considerations in mind and, with a view to establishing more clearly the responsibilities of the Prison Service, the Committee put forward two main proposals. One was that the courts should no longer be free to make a hospital order in respect of a psychopath, unless the court is satisfied that a previous mental or organic illness or an identifiable psychological or physical defect relevant to the disorder is known or suspected. That was the first, and in addition there is to be an expectation of therapeutic benefit from hospital admission. In that way, we had one suggestion for psychopaths. The second suggestion concerned the difficulty of dealing with a dangerous and anti-social psychopath. It was suggested that a start should be made with a pilot study, which might be carried out in an existing part of a prison. The noble Earl, Lord Longford, observed that we were not so positive as to suggest that a pilot scheme should not be tried. I hope that the noble Lord who is to respond to

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the Motion on behalf of the Government will be able to say something on this extraordinarily complex issue.
Of course we did recommend in an interim report that a security unit should be set up. The House must realise that the Government accepted our interim report. Secondly, it must be realised that the Government accepted that they would go forward with this idea; and so we are asking today that something should be done. We were told at the time of our report by Ministers that there was no money.
Today there is an enormous blaze of headlines in the newspapers about the oil resources. These are to be used mostly for energy and for the re-creation of industry. At the very bottom the words appear in small print, "social services". I want the Ministers today to get some of that money. Social services are included in the White Paper on oil, and if they are included, something ought to be done for the mentally disordered, and particularly for the psychopath. Not only that, but as I came to sit in the House I had a paper, referred to by the noble Lord, published by MIND—the National Association for Mental Health, as I always call it—of which I am president, reminding me of the terrible conditions in Broadmoor, Rampton, Moss Side and the new Park Lane, a new special hospital which is far from completion. I was reminded of how it is becoming absolutely essential that public money should at last be spent.
If you visit Broadmoor and go to the left-hand side of the building, conditions are tolerable. On the right-hand side of the building, as you are warned by Dr. McGrath, the situation concerning bed room, sanitation and health is probably the most intolerable in the world. It is terrible that this should be going on and on. Here I am speaking six years after all this was put to me, as chairman of the Committee which produced the report. It is many years since I was a Minister—and I have been a Minister longer than anybody living in this country, in one Department or another. I must honestly say to the Government that these conditions are intolerable and I must ask that some of the oil revenues which are being blazoned today should be seized by their Departments and used for the relief which we want.
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The next problem that arose in this debate was the one about the liberty of the individual. That is a particularly important point. I have here a booklet about this, also published by MIND, which I saw only this afternoon for some reason. If people can afford £2·75, they can buy it; I am not allowed to make it a Government document! It is written by the Association's own lawyers and shows the importance of preserving the liberty of the individual and also the safety of the public.
Our first proposals were all very nice and were really in favour of the liberty of the subject, so far as was possible. But then a certain gentleman called Iliffe got out; he murdered his wife, cut her up and put her into the refrigerator. So we thought that that was a bit too much to allow, without a little control. Then, unfortunately, just before we were going to report—as the Minister will know—one or two other escapes occurred. In my opinion, the Cambridge rapist, who held the town to ransom for several months, could have been caught earlier. It was a girl in my office, who remembered a case of sex trouble, who reported it and helped towards the final arrest. This is all very well, but if you are going to have freedom of the subject you must also have security.
Sir Carl Aarvold was first appointed to a committee to look after this aspect, but we found, following on the view of the Royal Commission relating to mental illness, the Percy Commission and other such commissions, that that statement about the appointment of Sir Carl Aarvold was not enough and that it must be further strengthened. We therefore suggested the addition of an advisory committee, and that further permission should be sought—and the permission of the Home Secretary—before release could be made possible. I believe that this new compromise, which is much aided by the wisdom of Sir Carl Aarvold, will lead to fewer dangerous cases getting out and disturbing the public; and it is important that there should be this compromise achieved between the liberty of the individual, and the safety of the public.
As I said, I could go over many other paragraphs of the report. I believe that we should think a little more than we have

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done in our debate, so far, about aftercare. At the present moment, a man can be let out and the after-care may be so limited that he cannot do anything more. So he goes back and is, again, in the desperate situation which my committee and I saw in those sad, gloomy hospitals, so nobly and splendidly run by their superintendents. I think, also, that the problem of the inadequate, the rootless and, so often, homeless schizophrenic should be dealt with. One could go on with one person after another, but I feel that I have said enough to show that it is the honourable duty of your Lordships' House, as individuals and corporately, and it is the duty of the other House, to see that the Government of the day give us a little of these extra riches, which are coming to us, to help put right some scandals which are too great for this country to bear.
5.13 p.m.
Lord HUNT: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Longford, spoke of his experience of speaking before the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden. I have to say that it is my fate or experience—and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, will take it as a compliment—to speak after he has spoken. The last occasion when I did so was in a debate on education, and here I am speaking with equally little knowledge on the subject of the report produced by the Committee of which he was chairman. I profess to know very little about this subject, but I am, nevertheless, very grateful to my noble friend Lord Allen of Abbeydale for inviting me to take part in the debate on the Motion in his name. I think that he was persuaded to do so by Dr. McGrath, the superintendent at Broadmoor—on what grounds I am not sure. It is, of course, very unwise in your Lordships' House, as everybody knows, to speak on subjects about which one knows little. Nevertheless, I am glad to take the opportunity, if only to make a single point on behalf of the probation and after-care service.
It is not without significance that the National Association of Probation Officers, of which I am privileged to be President, supported every one of the 138—or 140, according to my noble friend Lord Allen—recommendations in the report of the noble Lord, Lord Butler. NAPO is a body
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which is historically, and I think rightly, known for being critical of reports to Governments, whether they are by committees or commissions, on matters in the penal and social welfare fields, and here is a national association which has come out in total support of every one of Lord Butler's recommendations.
I am not here to plug the virtues of the National Association of Probation Officers, but I should like, in support of what I have said to point out that the Association does not run a union shop, and yet it is highly representative of the whole body of probation officers. It includes more than 4,000 of the total of 5,500 probation officers in the country. It consulted very widely before giving its evidence to Lord Butler's Committee, and it came out with this unanimous, strongly held and very positive view. The Probation Service is not, of course, involved with mentally abnormal offenders to the extent that it is with other offenders. But in giving its evidence, it voiced its particularly strong support for recommendation 1 in Lord Butler's interim report, and the supporting recommendation 2, bearing on the need—and the urgent need—for these regional secure units, of which we have heard so much this afternoon.
The National Association reinforced its support more recently—in fact, on 30th January this year—in giving oral evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee on Expenditure. One member of the delegation from that Association informed the Committee that, in a prison—and it was not Grendon or Wormwood Scrubs, which have special units to deal with psychiatric cases—where he worked for several years as a welfare officer, about 11 prisoners on average every year were released after offences for which, in his opinion, and in the opinion of his colleagues, they bore only a very diminished responsibility. They were suffering from some form of mental abnormality and they should not have been sent to prison. That was not only the view of the welfare staff in the prison; it was the view of the prison governor and, no doubt, some of his colleagues.
On that basis, that probation officer computed that as many as 1,000 men and women might be serving prison sentences at any one time, with some form of mental disorder. They were not receiving, or

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perhaps were not susceptible to, psychiatric treatment and, in many cases, they were not subject to any control whatsoever on being released. They were serving fixed-term sentences. Normally, they would come out after completing two-thirds of their sentences, and there would be no control once they were in the community. That officer stressed to the committee his difficulty, and indeed his failures, in making any discharge arrangements for the great majority of those 11 men per year who were in that prison; and that figure could be multiplied by the many prisons in which that happens, with the consequent risk which those mentally disordered offenders, having been in prison, present to the public.
Even where such people are subject to supervision orders of some kind or another, whether they come out on parole licence or a young person's licence, they are very often not responsive to the kind of skills that probation and after-care officers and social workers possess. Whatever the numbers—and although I produced a figure of about 1,000, somebody this afternoon gave what sounded like an authoritative figure of 900, or thereabouts which I have not seen myself—it is reasonable to claim that there are very many cases of this kind. Mentally abnormal ex-prisoners present a danger to the public and to themselves, whether or not they are supervised, and even though they may not in all cases be violent people. Because of their disorder, some of them cannot be cured.
A number of questions arise from the evidence submitted to the Select Committee on Expenditure. May I pick out three main questions which raise quite a number of others, but they are very obvious ones. First, should such persons have been prosecuted in the first instance by the police? Secondly, depending on the plea at the trial and how that plea was dealt with, was there a medical report and were there social inquiry reports in every case before sentence was pronounced? Thirdly, depending on the question of reports, should such persons have been sent to prison, and was prison an appropriate form of sentence?
Certainly there is no one answer to those many cases of people who come before the courts in that mental condition.
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As I have said, those three questions give rise to a number of others. The answer to the first question, that of prosecution, and to the third question, that of imprisonment, may well have been known in most cases, but—and the "but" means that there was no alternative secure place for such persons to go to; there was no asylum, and I use the word "asylum" not it its old "loony bin" sense but as meaning a refuge or a place of safety where they could be cared for instead of having to be sent to prison, or after having come out of prison.
I have nothing more to contribute to your Lordships' debate, beyond expressing to my noble friend Lord Allen of Abbeydale the hope that the testimony from the Probation Service with which I am concerned adds force to the case which the Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, made so extremely cogently and to which the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, has this afternoon drawn our attention with a very strong note of urgency.
5.23 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, so far as I am concerned, the most pleasing feature about the debate this afternoon is to see again in your Lordships' House the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden. I first met the noble Lord more years ago than I care to remember, when I helped to introduce into this country a voluntary organisation which today is perhaps one of the leading voluntary organisations, one that is known not only nationally but internationally. The noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, may not realise that this organisation would have sunk without trace within a matter of three years for lack of money had he not called together a number of business people and influential people and told them of the situation. His action produced so much money that it enabled this organisation to carry on, and today it enjoys a great deal of approval in the eyes of everybody.
I am not unaware that the matter which we are discussing today is a kind of "no-man's-land" which is full of mines and trip wires. However careful one is and however carefully one walks, one is bound either to tread on a mine or to set one off by the trip wire. As it was felt that my

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Department would in some respects be criticised, perhaps not without justification, it was thought that at this stage I should intervene to try to answer some of the points which have been made. It was possible to anticipate what certain noble Lords would say, and this they have done. Certainly the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, and the noble Earl, Lord Longford, indicated to me some time ago the line that they were likely to take.
I want to say at the very beginning in answer to the noble Earl, Lord Longford, that the report of the Butler Committee on the urgent need for regional secure psychiatric units was accepted by the Government. There is no intention on the part of the Government to put the report conveniently aside and at a suitable moment to torpedo it out of sight. There are reasons why the Government have not made the progress they would have liked to make.
We recognise that it is important that this recommendation and the programme for providing these units should be seen in the context of the Government's overall strategy for the development of services for the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped, to which we continue to attach a great deal of priority. This is not just a form of words; it is a sincere belief. Indeed, only this week planning guidelines for 1978–79 have been sent to health authorities and local authorities, reiterating the priorities for these services which had been set out—I would say clearly—in previous documents.
Mentally abnormal offenders who are referred as patients to the National Health Service are treated and cared for in respect of their mental disorders in that part of the psychiatric service which is appropriate to the care and treatment they need, including any appropriate degree of security. They are not regarded as a separate category of patient for whom separate services are provided, nor do they all require—this is a point which we have to keep in the forefront of our minds—the same degree of security.
The regional psychiatric secure units which the Butler Report recommended have to be seen against this general background. They form part of an integrated psychiatric service, not a separate and
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distinct service. Essentially, they are for patients who require a degree of security less than that of the special hospitals but greater than that of the ordinary psychiatric hospital or unit. It is part of the latter's function to provide a degree of security by means, in some cases, of a high level of staffing oversight and in others by the occasional use of a locked room or ward. Thus, the secure units will take only a minority of patients who are difficult to manage. They are not for all offender patients, or for all ex-special hospital patients, or for any other category of that kind. They are for a limited group of patients.
The noble Earl, Lord Longford, referred to Knowle Hospital and said—and I accept his comment and observation—that there is no locked door and that any of the patients can leave at any time. They would be dissuaded from doing so, and because of the high level of staff at Knowle there is every reason to believe that this policy is successful. Although I have been at some pains to inquire, I do not know of one person who has, for want of a better word, absconded from Knowle. This is due, as I have said, to the high level of staffing oversight.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, would the noble Lord like to finish with Knowle, or may I intervene now?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I have finished with Knowle.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, may I remind the noble Lord of what I told him: That two-thirds of the people there are voluntary patients. Knowle is not dealing, therefore, with the problem of delinquency.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: No, my Lords, but what is delinquency? Does delinquency apply only to those who appear before the courts? These are people whom it is suspected might well behave in a seriously anti-social way. As I have said, they have gone to Knowle and there they have stayed. I do not know of a single instance of anybody walking out or absconding.
Patients come from a variety of sources. Some patients come from special hospitals, but most special hospital patients who have reached the point where they are ready

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to leave hospital should either be transferred to ordinary psychiatric units or be discharged direct into the community. The largest source of patients for secure units is expected to be those who have proved to be beyond the capacity of the ordinary psychiatric hospital or unit to manage, even with a high level of staffing oversight. A further source will be offenders admitted on court orders, but again most of the offenders are envisaged as continuing to be admitted to ordinary psychiatric hospitals or units, at least in the first instance, to see what can be done for them at that level. The other source will be the mentally disordered prisoners transferred on the Home Secretary's order, who have been referred to this afternoon. Once more we would expect ordinary psychiatric hospitals to continue to take a number of such transfers in the ordinary way.
As noble Lords will be aware, progress in setting up regional psychiatric secure units has been—and let me be quite frank about this—disappointingly slow despite the special capital and revenue moneys which have been made available. Ten of the 14 health regions have put proposals to my Department and we hope that the other four will be able to do so very soon. But the noble Lord, Lord Allen, was quite correct. He was very fair—if he does not mind my saying so—in saying that the most we can hope for is that there will be two or three regional units operational by 1980 or 1981 and the rest we hope will be established by 1985. I cannot give your Lordships any assurance whatsoever that we shall be able to do so before then. There are considerable difficulties.
The noble Lord, Lord Allen, referred to the use of the money which we gave. The allocation was first made in 1976–77 and it was repeated for the year 1977–78. It was to enable regional authorities to establish interim facilities to try and close the gap in the service. My department recognised that the amount provided was likely in practice to be more than could be used in the first year. The result was that the authorities were authorised to devote the unspent money to other urgent Health Service purposes. The regions were reminded last year that in the current financial year they should be in a position to put the allocation to the
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fuller use and recommend that any allocation unspent on secure facilities should be devoted to other facilities in the psychiatric field.
I have explained at some length the purpose of the units because I suspect that some of the difficulties in getting the units set up may spring from a variety of misunderstandings as to what is happening. My right honourable friend the the Secretary of State for Social Services at a meeting with the chairmen of all the regional health authorities as recently as yesterday discussed with them what must be done and what can be done to speed the progress. The chairmen confirmed their support for the policy but brought to the notice of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the real difficulties that they are facing. The problems are complex.
The concept of regional secure units is an untried one and-I have to be perfectly frank about this—staff attitudes are also a key factor. It has to be said that the enthusiasm for treating patients under open conditions, with all the benefits to staff and patients in doing so, has led to a situation where many staff are reluctant to treat patients in conditions of security. There also seems to be an increased Unwillingness to treat the very difficult ones who are disruptive or violent or difficult, for reasons which I think most of us here can understand. It is one thing to say to people, "You ought to do this" when you are not doing it yourself.
Public attitudes are also a key factor. Misunderstandings about the nature and purpose of the units, the kinds of patients who will be in them and the risk they represent to the local public are widespread. Every one of us here believes that there should be a regional secure unit, but not next door to us, next door to somebody else. We are having these difficulties. One was raised in your Lordships' House over a year ago where the local community demanded an inquiry and it is not resolved yet because people living in the community will not have the unit.
The Regional Health Authority is in the same position as everybody else. We cannot build where and when we like. We have to get planning permission and we have to submit plans. We have to get authority to do this, that and the other and

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if anybody objects, as they do (in two cases, to my knowledge), we cannot do anything until after completion of a long-drawn-out process because the rights of the individual have to be protected. It does not help—not that any Members of your Lordships' House are responsible for this—when people make references in public to "mini-Broadmoors". As the noble Lord, Lord Allen, said, they are not going to be mini-Broadmoors. I am grateful to have this opportunity of saying the things I have said.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend? As one who objected very strongly at the time to the Earlswood project, I feel I ought to say that I have now completely changed my mind, partly as a result of the urgency of the problem and partly as a result of the Butler Report. I hope that the Government will proceed with the matter with all urgency.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Lord may have changed his mind—I am glad that he has—but the point is that you have to change a large number of people's minds in these matters before you can get things done. Some noble Lords may have seen the recent papers by Dr. Bluglass, regional forensic psychiatrist in the West Midlands Regions, which he put to an all-Party mental health group. He implies that the Department of Health and Social Services Working Party Report and the Butler Report were not specific enough about the types of patients who would be suitable for secure units.
It is true that my Department's report, which we call the Glancy Report, concentrated on types of patients who would not be suitable for admission, making the particular point that the units were not intended to cope with all the patients in mental hospitals who were sporadically difficult or aggressive but only with those causing continuing difficulty for whom expert and intensive therapy in secure units was likely to produce significant improvement within 18 months to two years. The Department's design guidelines went into more detail about the types of patients for whom the secure services are needed. However, we would accept that further definition may be helpful, but again we are dealing with a very young
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science—if psychiatry is a science. I do not know whether it is; it is certainly not an exact science. Any science that is not an exact science very often throws up more difficulties than it solves.
The point is also made that a significant number of patients are likely to require secure accommodation for longer than 18 months to two years as envisaged in the Glancy Report. This is an important issue. It highlights the importance of secure units being seen as only one element in the whole spectrum of different degrees of security. I want to stress this point—different degrees of security. I think we are making a very serious mistake if we think that a secure unit must be a place that is completely isolated from anywhere else, that is bolted and barred and locked. I do not think that that is conducive to helpful treatment.
I am simply trying to reply to some of the remarks that have been made about my own Department. I do not want to go on any longer, because the brunt of this falls on my noble friend Lord Harris. I should like to make one other point: that is, that we are so concerned about the problems which seem to bedevil this whole question of safe security units that we have had our policy endorsed by all chairmen of the Regional Health Authorities. I am glad to say that we have bad our policy endorsed by al I the professional bodies, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and also by the TUC and the national trade union organisation.
My right honourable friend has set up a committee which includes representatives of the whole trade union movement affected here; he has their support and we are hoping that they will be able not just to consider the difficulties with which we are faced but to provide solutions which will help us, once we have got through all the tedious problems of planning, siting and all those other things, to see that we are able to get the staff to meet the requirements of the Butler Report.
5.42 p.m.
Baroness FAITHFULL: My Lords, all those in the Prison Service, in the Probation and After-Care Service, in the Health Service and the voluntary and statutory social services, and indeed the mentally abnormal offenders themselves,

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owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for initiating this long and overdue debate. It seems almost presumptuous to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and his colleagues for producing a masterly and readable report on an extraordinarily wide-ranging and complex subject.
Mentally abnormal offenders are individuals who in our society are unacceptable to many, and indeed by many they are feared. They cannot be brushed aside; indeed it would not be politic to do so. As Lord Allen said in his opening speech, in a civilised society they should, surely, receive caring treatment, while at the same time protecting the public from their intermittent dangerous behaviour.
I would ask a few questions. First, may I draw the attention of your Lordships to the recommended provision for mentally disordered juveniles and young adult offenders. This is outlined, and the problems are outlined, in Chapter 17 where it says:
"Placement within the prison system is not appropriate for juvenile offenders suffering from mental disorder. … We recommend that steps be taken by the DHSS to encourage the establishment of more places in hospital for mentally disordered juveniles and we hope that increased facilities will promote greater willingness on the part of consultants to accept them".—[Parapraphs 17.2 and 17.3.]
There is much concern in this country over juvenile offenders requiring secure accommodation. On 20th June 1975, there was a ministerial Statement in the other place that the Government intended making available to local authorities financial assistance in the form of grants for the purpose of building secure accommodation for seriously disturbed juveniles. May I ask the Minister to what extent that Statement, made 2½ years ago, has been implemented? For a juvenile a time in prison can be a passport to further crime and further difficulty.
May I ask the Minister, also, whether any hostels have been set up for the after-care of such juveniles? This was a recommendation in Paragraphs 134 to 139. I was going to ask various questions on the regional secure hospital units, but the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has answered the questions I was going to ask. I should like to say that I was privileged to sit on a committee in the
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Oxford region which first discussed the setting up of these units, and I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said: there are untold difficulties over the setting up of such units. One of the greatest difficulties, perhaps one of the sadnesses and tragedies of our time, is that everybody in an area agrees that they should be set up, but not in their area.
We should ask ourselves—and I would put this before your Lordships' House—in what way can we change public opinion in a civilised society in regard to people who are so mentally ill and mentally handicapped that help is needed, to persuade people that instead of being fearful, frightened and appalled by them, they should seek to help them and co-operate with those wishing to do so. I would also echo what the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said over staffing. I have worked in a mental hospital. It is very difficult for staff to accept work in a mental hospital that is secure and not open. I hope that we may have the co-operation of the trades unions. Their rôle is to safeguard their staff, and many of their staff are fearful. Also, I would suggest that it is a trade union's privilege to help its members to understand the need of the patients that we are dealing with. I hope that they would also join with the rest of us in doing what we can to change the public attitude towards people who are so much in need of skill and help.
I should like to take up a point which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, made on the question of social services and aftercare and preventive work. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, or the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, whether we should not be considering the question of the training and the role of the Probation After-care service and the training of social workers in the statutory and voluntary social services. I would ask the Minister to inquire of the Council on Training and Education in Social Work if that Council is satisfied that the universities and polytechnics are supplying the right type of training for probation officers and for social workers, training enabling them to work in the field of mental health.
I have been told by some senior probation officers and senior social workers that they are concerned that the present courses for some probation officers and

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social workers do not begin to equip them for work in this field. Yet again—and I almost hesitate to do this—may I bring to the notice of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, a request that I have brought to him on at least two other occasions for adequate community social services, and in particular the need for hostels. It is cheaper to provide hostel accommodation than for an offender to return to prison, or even to go to prison in the first place.
I had a friend called Joe, and he used to call a week before Christmas and ask whether he could see me to wish me a Happy Christmas. I used to say: "Joe, it's a week before Christmas, why not come round on Christmas Eve?". He used to say, "I have business to do tonight". That business was to clock a policeman, knock him out, appear before the magistrates and to be sentenced to time in prison, so that he could have a Christmas dinner. That does not happen now in the area in which I live, because we have a Church Army hostel, a Salvation Army hostel, and a Cyrenian community who, among other organisations, take in those unsupported by anyone else, but on whom some mental hospitals rely.
I should perhaps add that there are mentally abnormal offenders and non-offenders who can sustain life in a hostel or in the community if they receive a daily domiciliary visit from a nurse they know from the hospital who encourages them to take their medicines and who gives them support. That, with the support of either the probation officer or the social services worker, is able to sustain them. I cannot and indeed dare not embark upon the imponderable dilemma which contains conflict for both the Judiciary and medicine. However, I would join with the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, and ask the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, when we are to have the White Paper on the Mental Health Act 1959.
There have been debates in your Lordships' House on overcrowding in prisons. There are 347 prisoners in Oxford Prison which was built in the last century for 163. We have heard of gross overcrowding in the special hospitals. We have had debates in your Lordships' House on alternative community care and after-care of offenders and non-offenders
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who suffer a mentally abnormal condition. We have heard of the anomalies as between the administration of the Mental Health Act and the responsibility of the Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Security.
Has the time not come for establishing a national advisory board with representation from all the interests involved—as recommended on page 266 of the report—to work out a concerted policy, and for such a body to assist towards working out solutions? I ask the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, whether his right honourable friend the Minister in another place would, in deference to the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, following this debate launch a combined operation—"Operation Butler".
5.54 p.m.
Lady KINLOSS: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, for his profound and excellent report. I should like to join him in that tribute and also say how clear and interesting I found it. It is certainly high time that this report, published as long ago as October 1975—two and a half years ago—should receive what is long overdue debate. If the people concerned in this report, the mentally abnormal offenders, are not numerous, they are persons who especially deserve our compassion. At the same time, either because they are a present and active danger to society, or because they are a potential danger to their fellow men and women, consideration of their treatment is imperative and urgent. Truly, we should not have delayed discussion of this report for so long.
I am very sorry that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford is unable to speak today. I had been looking forward to hearing what he had to say. As I read the report of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden—paragraph 1.1 (b) of which refers to treatment in prison, hospital or the community—I could not help noticing that there was no reference made to pastoral care by such chaplains as there may be or of pastoral care when they return to society, although the report laid great emphasis on after-care, with which I entirely agree.

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Although in cases of restricted release under Section 65, after-care is compulsory, there is a lack of suitable hostel accommodation for such cases. I trust that the Government will be able to look at this matter sympathetically. As the Butler Report suggests, close co-operation between the social workers in special hospitals and the local authority social worker is an essential ingredient, and after-care should devolve upon either the social worker or the probation officer, whichever of the two in each individual case is known to have had the greater contact with the patient.
There seem to be conflicting interests within the administration in this matter—the proper sphere of psychiatrists, of medical treatment on the one hand, and of the public security on the other, which is essentially the role of the Home Secretary. Looking at the literature at my disposal, it seems to me that not always are these two things properly harmonised. However, the curative intentions of the doctors and the custodial purposes of the Home Secretary should, I should have thought, have the same aim: the single intention of helping mentally abnormal offenders to return to a normal and decent place in society. I ask myself whether, in fact, this educative process is helped by the present administration of the 1959 Act. In what I have to say, I do not blame any one Government, for it appears to me that the present situation has existed for a very long time.
It is a truism that any cure, of whatever disease, depends to a given extent on co-operation between patient and doctor. Hope is the essence of the cure, and it is that alone that the doctor can hold out to the patient as the light at the end of the dark tunnel of mental illness. But even when the responsible medical officer—or RMO as he is commonly called—has recommended discharge of a patient, and this has been followed by a similar recommendation of the review tribunal, the Home Secretary can refuse to accept the advice without giving any reason. I am greatly perturbed that in no fewer than 40 per cent. of cases under Section 65 of the Mental Health Act in which tribunals have recommended discharge, between 1970 and 1975 the Home Secretary rejected the tribunals' advice, and again, of course, without giving reason. Even then, if a
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restricted patient has been conditionally, discharged, the Home Secretary, again without having to give a reason, can recall that patient to hospital at any time. The organisation MIND took to the European Commission on Human Rights the case of a man who was recalled to Broadmoor after three successful years of normal life in the community, solely on the evidence of his wife with whom he had had a matrimonial dispute.
However, it is not only the wholly arbitrary nature of the Home Secretary's powers with which I am concerned, because there are also the administrative delays to which patients are subjected. The RMO may tell the patient that he recommends his return to society, yet there is evidence of cases taking the Home Secretary up to a year or more to make a decision. It can be that the Home Secretary refuses, again without any reason given, and does in 40 per cent. of cases. In one case that has been reported a patient recommended for conditional discharge by his RMO was kept waiting for two years. Understandably he suffered acute anxiety and, sadly, his marriage broke up. He suffered also the constant worry that the job and accommodation he had been offered would be lost. It is possible to cite other cases. One wonders how many relapses are caused by these administrative delays. With a 40 per cent. difference of opinion between 1970 and 1975 between responsible doctors and tribunals and the various Home Secretaries, one is obliged to ask why it turns out that the doctors and tribunals are found wrong in nearly half the cases. Why is it, if the doctors, who have personal knowledge of the individual patients, are wrong in so many cases, that the Home Secretary is not wrong also?
Allow me, my Lords, to cite the European Convention on Human Rights. It says:
"Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings whereby the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful".
Under the law as it stands in England a patient is deprived of all such rights. Is it truly just that he should continue to be deprived? Is it truly just that on the say so of one man—the Home Secretary—he can be denied access to a tribunal when his discharge has been recommended by

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his RMO? Is it not time that the law is amended?
After visiting Broadmoor yesterday I could not think that any of the responsible medical officers who I met—nor indeed any other doctor—would irresponsibly recommend the discharge of patients not tit for discharge. The devotion of the staff, doctors, nurses and equally the ancillary staff moved me deeply. May I say how much I value the privilege of having been permitted to see it for myself.
6 p.m.
Lord GARDINER: My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for enabling us to discuss this important report this afternoon. We are all, of course, greatly in the debt of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, and of his Committee. I sometimes think that we do not thank enough those men and women who voluntarily and without reward spend so much time and get so little lunch. It is perhaps a reflection on the House that we have not considered this report before.
I confess that in my very old age I am reaching the conclusion that Governments would do better if they appointed rather fewer Royal Commissions and committees and paid rather more attention to the reports they receive from those they do appoint. This has, I think, particular force at the moment when we have recently seen a Royal Commission appointed to inquire, among other things, into two subjects, both of which have already been considered by two or three separate committees; now a Royal Commission is to consider the whole matter all over again.
If I may, I shall confine my remarks to the effect which these reports have on the difficulties experienced by the judges, the courts and also the prisons in this area. One has, of course, to consider both the special hospitals and the general psychiatric hospitals. The position in the special hospitals was well described in the Butler Committee's Interim Report, in paragraph 4, as what they found to be the appalling conditions in the special hospitals. I shall not take up time in reading it. My noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich may agree that the position, which is in no way the fault of the special
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hospitals, is still as difficult now as it was then. They are greatly overcrowded and there are two difficulties which conflict with one another.
The first is that there are a number of patients who do not need the exceptional security provisions of the special hospitals but who cannot be left free in completely open hospitals; however, they would be quite all right in the secure units of an ordinary psychiatric hospital. On the other hand, there are those in prison who ought to be in a special hospital but who cannot be there due to lack of space. I would venture strongly to support the need for secure units. As has been said by my noble Baroness Lady Kinloss, these ought to be subjects for our compassion. I do not see my noble friend Lord Longford present. I have not infrequently agreed with him, but on this occasion I was surprised. I entirely agree with my noble Baroness Lady Kinloss that these people deserve our compassion. They are mentally ill; they are not so dangerous that they have to go to a special hospital. They need treatment and would improve with treatment. They cannot receive treatment in prisons for the reason explained in the report; they need somewhere to go where there is a secure unit, but do not need the degree of security present in the special hospitals. For too long now we have denied them that opportunity.
That leads me to say a few words about the time scale. It was in 1957 that the Report of the Royal Commission on Mental Illness commented on this problem and said that what they called "special accommodation" should be provided in general psychiatric hospitals. It is clear from what they said that they were referring to what are now known as secure units. That was 21 years ago. The Mental Health Act 1959, with its open-door policy, may have been a very good thing for all those who are mentally ill and who are not likely, by reason of their illness, to commit criminal offences. However, it did not improve the position for the prisoners.
In February 1961 there was the report—which is referred to in the Report of the Butler Committee—of a working party set up by the Ministry of Health. What they said appears at paragraph 20 of the Interim Report of the Butler Committee. I quote from the 1961 report:

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"Regional hospital boards should arrange their psychiatric services so as to ensure that there is a variety of types of hospital unit, including some secure units".
It is not that nothing happened, because only two or three months later the Ministry of Health issued a strong recommendation to hospitals to implement that proposal. But unfortunately nothing happened at all and there was still no secure unit. That was 17 years ago.
Indeed, up to 1974 nothing whatever had been done. The effect of all this on the judges, the courts and the prisons is described in paragraphs 6 and 7 of the Interim Report. After setting out the circumstances, it says in paragraph 5:
"Two consequences follow from this: one is that many patients in the special hospitals need not be there for reasons of security; and the special hospitals have to refuse admission to cases they could appropriately accept if they had room.
"6. These problems rebound on the courts and the prisons and they are likely to increase as treatment of psychiatric cases is developed in district general hospitals. The courts are experiencing more and more difficulty in dealing with mentally abnormal offenders who need psychiatric treatment but who must be kept in secure conditions …
"7. Evidence received from the Home Office and from members of the Prison Medical Service has indicated growing concern among those responsible for the administration of the prisons about the increasing numbers of mentally abnormal offenders in the prison population. Despite overcrowding, the prisons have no choice but to accept the offenders sent by the courts, including the mentally abnormal people who are sentenced to imprisonment, for want of acceptance by a hospital".
Increasingly, the judges have decreased the number of cases in which they make hospital orders with a restriction because they found it absolutely useless to do so, for no one can find a hospital which is prepared to take such people. They cannot be sent by a judge to a hospital for treatment unless the hospital agrees to accept them.
It took more than two years before the Government, in relation to this report, said anything except that the matter was under consideration. I observe that when Questions are asked about mentally abnormal offenders in the other place it seems to be a matter of chance whether they are answered by a Minister of State from the Department of Health or by a Minister of State from the Home Office.
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However, in all this time I have seen no sign of the two Departments not cooperating very well together; they appear to me to have done so.
Naturally, I was delighted when, on 25th April last year, in a Written Answer the Minister of State in another place said:
"We [the Government] accept that the provision of a secure unit in each health region must be a matter of high priority, and … have provided support both for their capital and running costs".
I am delighted to hear from my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell that the Government have no intention of going back on that or of dropping it in any way. I appreciate the difficulties. I confess that I thought from what was said at first that some of the hospital authorities had taken the money and then embezzled it, but I gather that it is not as bad as that, though why they were allowed to spend the money on something else I do not quite know. I appreciate the difficulties of staffing, and so forth. This is really a matter for educating both those psychiatrists who are not forensic psychiatrists, and also no doubt the working staff. I am glad to hear that appropriate negotiations are going on with the trade unions concerned. Therefore, while it may have taken a long time I respectfully applaud the decision which the Government have now taken to provide, as soon as they can, secure units.
May I ask my noble friend Lord Harris whether I am right in thinking that today there is no secure unit at all? This is after a total of 21 years. If that is right, may I ask him what buildings are in train? Are some being started to be built? If so, how many and where? When are they likely to be completed? Most important what is their capacity? The Butler Committee calculated that there were about 900 prisoners who, instead of being in prison, ought to be in secure units, and that, allowing for people detained who were not prisoners, a total of some 2,000 places ought to be provided.
Lastly, might I ask whether I am right in thinking that there is no power at all for the Government to force regional hospital authorities to provide one psychiatric hospital in their area with some quantity of secure units? If there is no such power, do the Government—because they, after all, are providing the money—contemplate legislation to require it? Even regional hospital authorities are to

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some extent under the rule of law and under Parliament. Do the Government contemplate legislation to provide, having been given about 17 years, some time limit in which, if they have not taken some steps to produce secure units in one regional hospital in their area, Parliament may decide that they shall?
6.12 p.m.
Lord AUCKLAND: My Lords, when some several weeks ago the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, asked me whether I would speak on this subject, I agreed with some trepidation. The trepidation still remains because this is not an aspect of the mental health service with which I come into much contact. My own contact, like that of many noble Lords and Members of the other place, has been with mental hospitals as such as opposed to the special hospitals. The noble Lord initiated this debate with a clear and convincing speech, and the ensuing speeches have followed that pattern, particularly the speech by my noble friend Lord Butler of Saffron Walden who, I am sure we all recognise, has produced a masterly report.
It is certainly a lengthy document, preceded by the interim report which I must say makes slightly easier reading, but the report as a whole is a valuable one. Of course with the economic situation that this country faces and has faced for some years under all Governments, and which it is likely to face in the future, the prospect of any major implementation of the report as a whole in the short term must be considered remote. Nevertheless, we all hope that as a result of this debate it will be possible for at least some of the major recommendations, particularly the provision of the new special hospitals, to be expedited.
The Mental Health Bill, as it then was, seems a long time ago. I recall that I made one of my first speeches in your Lordships' House on it. The Act, as it now is, is an impressive piece of legislation, despite the undoubted flaws which it may have. Any Act of 154 sections and 8 Schedules is bound to contain sections which, in retrospect, may be regarded as perhaps rather unworkable or surplus to requirement, or perhaps in some cases the opposite. But I believe that the Act has been a stepping stone to a good deal
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of progress in the mental health field; both in the general mental and psychiatric hospitals, and also in the special hospitals.
One of the great problems which the report highlights is that of overcrowding. The interim report, in paragraph 4, talks about the visit which the Committee made in, I think, 1972–73, which is 6 years ago. There may well have been improvements since then. If there have been I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will correct me and other noble Lords who make this point. The paragraph says:
"On our visits to the special hospitals it is not too much to say that we have been astonished and shocked at the over-crowding, particularly in Broadmoor, where in some wards the beds, in rows right across the room, are no more than 18 inches apart".
Eighteen inches apart! I must come clean here and say that I have yet to visit one of these special hospitals. I hope that the opportunity will come, because I think that it is something which all people in public life who have a genuine interest in these unfortunate people who suffer from mental disorders should particularly undertake.
But the alarming thing here is that it is not only in special hospitals that this terrible situation arises. Where I live near Epsom, we have six or seven mental hospitals staffed, as I have said before and I make no apology for saying again, by devoted people; but the overcrowding in some of these hospitals, particularly among the geriatric persons, is really very distressing. Here I think that the question of after-care really arises, because if this report means anything I believe that it is to the future that we have to look. It is fine to know that the new Park Lane Hospital is at least in the process of being built, whenever its completion date may be. The projected date is 1982. But it is not merely a question of bricks and mortar; it is a question of staffing. Where the problem really arises is throughout the National Health Service as a whole, whether it be general hospitals, mental hospitals, or special hospitals.
An interesting publication which the organisation MIND put out made the important point—I do not necessary agree with all their conclusions, but they submitted a valuable and sincere report—that despite any success one may have in this field, when there is a case of ill-treatment

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or something of that kind it is very much highlighted by the media. I do not necessarily quarrel with that, provided the facts are right and the impression is not given that those who staff these hospitals, in whatever capacity, are out to treat patients unkindly. Whether they are psychopaths or schizophrenics—and not being a medical man I am not qualified to tell the exact technical difference between the various terms—one thing is certain; that is, that these people are all mentally and in many cases physically ill, and that in some cases they need attention round the clock, whether in general psychiatric hospitals or, even more so, in special hospitals.
We must also consider the question of therapy. I have not given the Minister notice of this question so he may not be able to reply this evening: in these special hospitals—Broadmoor, Rampton, Moss Side and, in Scotland, Carstairs—how much attention is given to therapy, occupational therapy and so on? One recognises the difficulties here because in many cases these people must be very closely guarded and are dangerous, but I suggest that in some cases some kind of occupation in the hospital would alleviate many of the tensions which undoubtedly arise.
On the question of rehabilitation, one must bear in mind the two types of behaviourism, so to speak, one being in the home; if they are sent back home to their families, if there families will have them, after perhaps they have had several years in institutions, they go home to a very different environment and that must have a bearing on their behaviour compared with when they were in hospital, where they were guarded and looked after; they knew their nurses and they had security, even though, as noble Lords have said, the conditions under which they lived were not as comfortable as we would like to see.
It is good to know that a White Paper will be coming out, and I take the point which the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden made on the question of revenue from North Sea oil and how it should be spent. I believe the social services should have a very high priority, particularly in the sphere of mental health. The kind of people about whom we are talking may in some cases never be able adequately to take their place in society,
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but they are still human beings in need of constant treatment and sympathy. In other cases there is the possibility of some form of rehabilitation. I end by again paying tribute to Lord Allen for having initiated this debate because, notwithstanding the important and in some cases disturbing national and international affairs which surround us, any subject which concerns human beings as directly as does this debate is of major importance.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene to say that in a debate of this kind, in which two Departments are involved, with your Lordships' permission I propose to read very carefully all the speeches that have been made since I sat down and to deal with any point by correspondence. I think it would be quite unreasonable in the circumstances to expect my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich to be able to reply for the DHSS.
6.27 p.m.
The Countess of LOUDOUN: My Lords, as I am speaking towards the end of the debate, most of what I wanted to say has been said, but I intend my remarks to be short and, though I may repeat some of what has been said, I think it bears repeating. It is now two and a half years since the Butler Committee produced its final report, in which it expressed concern that no progress had been made in establishing regional secure units in the National Health Service. That was generally considered to be due to lack of funds. Since then a considerable amount of money has been set aside by the DHSS specifically for this purpose, and I am pleased to have the assurances of the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, on this issue.
According to the information I have been given, interim secure units have been established in three hospitals: at Knowle Hospital Fareham, which opened in January 1977; at Prestwich Hospital, Manchester; and at Rain Hill Hospital, Liverpool. Prior to 1959, most mental hospitals had locked wards. Offender patients and difficult non-offender patients who were a problem of management and required some degree of security, but not to the level of that provided by the special hospitals, were easily managed by nursing and medical staff, who had considerable skill in this field.

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However, with the introduction during the 'fifties of the policy of unlocking doors and dispensing with restrictive methods of care, brought about by the discovery and use of a new range of psychiatric drugs, a new approach was necessary. Today, although there is some acceptance by the professions of the proposals for secure units, this is not unanimous and there is widespread misunderstanding and concern about their purpose and the types of patient for which they will cater. The White Paper on Mental Illness made a positive statement on which kind of patient should be admitted to a regional secure unit:
"… patients who are continuously behaviourally disturbed or who are persistently violent or considered a danger to the public, albeit not an immediate one".
There is also the belief nowadays by some people that all difficult patients will be accommodated in secure units and that the National Health Service psychiatric hospitals need have no further concern with their problem. But that is not so. Special hospitals are finding it increasingly difficult to obtain beds in NHS hospitals for recovered patients who are not now dangerous but who require rehabilitaton near to their homes.
In turn, psychiatrists and prison medical officers who consider that an accused person requires a hospital order, find it increasingly difficult to obtain accommodation in National Health Service or special hospitals, with the result that prisons now hold some hundreds of offenders who should be in hospital, and though recommendations for transfer from prison to hospital are made, these rarely take place owing to the increased resistance on the part of psychiatric hospitals to admit thse people. Special hospitals are overcrowded, many of their patients having no need for such secure conditions. But where is the alternative? Any plan to develop secure units should envisage a high turnover of patients, with the aim of keeping them for as short a time as possible, with regular reviews being made in all cases. There must be easy movement between the units, the special hospitals, and the National Service hospitals. This is essential to the success of the scheme.
Much of the present problem is created, by a fairly large group, the embarrassing or unrewarding patients, who are not
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dangerous, but are often difficult, un-co-operative, uncontrolled, and asocial; those who may drink, take drugs, upset other patients, or break institutional rules. Previously they would have been given "asylum"—and I use the word in its best meaning—by the mental hospital, but now they are increasingly rejected. Secure treatment facilities are required for a small proportion of patients who present difficulties in management, but not for the majority. Planning should concentrate more upon developing services and improving their interdependence. Regional secure units alone will simply create new problems, unless their relationship to other services is more clearly defined and understood. Perhaps now is the time for a national advisory body to be set up, as recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden,
"to report where problems are arising, and to assist towards solutions".
6.32 p.m.
Baroness STEWART of ALVECHURCH: My Lords, first, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for initiating the debate, and to say how much I have learnt from it. Like many of your Lordships, I read with much interest the report on Mentally Abnormal Offenders, and I thought that it dealt both realistically and in depth with problems which concern us all, and it is certainly my hope that many of its recommendations will be given priority by the Government in the not too distant future. I believe that we must bear in mind that, in a progressive country such as our own, the higher the standard of our social services, the more critical of them we become. It is only in quite recent years that we have become aware of the widely different needs of mentally abnormal offenders.
Those about whom I have some firsthand knowledge are juveniles who in past years we have dealt with in juvenile courts, and I should like to restrict my comments to their needs. I wholly agree with the statement made by the Association of Heads and Matrons of Community Schools, in its evidence to the Butler Committee, that when dealing with disturbed and anti-social young people, we should avoid attaching labels to them, such as "psychopathic disorder". What

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we should do is to try to understand their needs and viewpoints as individuals; and it is to the needs of young, disturbed people that I think we should give priority if we wish to reduce not only their number but also the number of abnormal adult offenders in our community today.
The provisions for young people who are both mentally disturbed and antisocial are, as the Butler Report says, totally inadequate. One urgent need is for more secure units where young people can both be assessed and receive treatment. The report suggests—and this I agree with—that sonic of these secure units should be attached to existing community homes, and should share the same staff, so that the young people could move gradually from closed to open conditions without interruption of personal relationships with the staff and those of their own age group. But I would urge that these closed units for young people should not be as prison-like as some of them are today. Although the doors and windows must be secure, the walls should be decorated, and the furniture and the lighting should be adequate, and the young people should be provided with occupation that has meaning for them and which serves some useful purpose to other people, as well as themselves.
I know that the problem is a difficult one, particularly in short-stay units in which there are many security problems. One must always bear in mind that in the hands of disturbed delinquents harmless instruments may become dangerous weapons. Also, in short-stay units there are likely to be wide differences in the degree of mental disturbance in the young people concerned. But voluntary societies might well be able, and willing, to make helpful suggestions and contributions in this field of occupation for young people in these units. I am convinced that high priority should be given to the provision of useful occupation for young people in all types of closed accommodation, whether it is prison, borstal, hospitals, or community homes. Although the provision of such occupation for the young inmates would be costly, it would, I believe, lead to greater co-operation and understanding on their part, and would lead ultimately to a reduction in the number of adult offenders.
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The Butler Report suggests that some of the additional closed units required for the treatment of disturbed juvenile offenders should be provided on a regional basis. This suggestion I would certainly support, provided that it leads to a more equitable distribution of these units throughout the country. One of the problems relating to these units for disturbed juvenile offenders is, as noble Lords have already suggested, that they may arouse the fear and hostility of citizens living in the neighbourhood. But suitable sites, which are neither unduly isolated, nor too prominent in a built-up area, are more likely to be found if povided on a regional basis.
Lastly, I should like to comment on the use of the word "subnormal" in the assessment of the intelligence of juveniles and adults. It is a most unfortunate word in that it implies that those who are given this label are inferior to those around them, and that they will remain so for the rest of their lives. Such a label is a tremendous handicap to young people, since their progress depends so much on encouragement and self confidence. I should like to suggest to my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich that the word "subnormal" should be replaced by one with less unfortunate associations.
6.37 p.m.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, even at this late hour I should like to join with other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for giving us the opportunity of debating this most important subject. The debate also gives me an opportunity, for which I am most thankful, of paying a tribute to the medical officers and the nursing staffs who have entered the service of our special hospitals. I can imagine there are few less attractive, and more daunting, prospects in the whole field of medicine. They have to take decisions affecting the safety and lives not only of their patients, but of people in the surrounding countryside, and, as the cases of Graham Young and others have shown, affecting the lives of the whole community. They are themselves at constant risk of personal violence and physical injury to a degree which hardly applies to any other branch of medicine. Theri decisions are subject to the widest possible public scrutiny, and when arrived at from the highest of motives, they are, even if

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absolutely correct, liable to gross misrepresentation and newspaper condemnation. If a rare human error has been made—and which of us is exempt from human error?—the repercussions are potentially so serious that no limit can be laid to them.
With all the wide range of prospects that are open to any doctor, I feel that only the strongest sense of social responsibility and of public duty could ever lead a doctor to devote his life to joining the medical staffs of our special hospitals. Hardly less a sense of social responsibility is demanded of their nursing staffs. Even if they do not have to take the ultimate decisions, they have to live constantly with the patients and are subject to perhaps even greater risks. No tribute too high can be paid to their sense of devotion and loyalty to the interests of the community as a whole. I should like to ask my noble friend who is to reply whether he would be good enough to let us have some details, if not now perhaps later on, about the recruiting situation of both the medical and the nursing staffs at our special hospitals. I should imagine that the shortages must be particularly acute.
The 140 recommendations of the Butler Report cover so wide a field, and many of them are of such excellence, that in a debate of this kind it is possible to deal with only a very few points; and, if I confine my remarks to the special hospitals, that is a wide enough field in itself, and I have time to touch on only a few aspects of them. In general, may I say that many cases of genuine grievance, even of glaring injustice, appear in a totally different light once they are properly understood by a direct approach on the spot, by an interview with the patient himself, and an explanation of the other side of his case by the medical officer, on whom the responsibility for his welfare has to rest. Of course, deprivation of liberty is a dreadful thing, whether of the mentally ill offender or even of the mentally ill; but it is incumbent on the community to make the conditions in our mental hospitals as tolerable, as conducive to proper treatment, and especially as flexible, as we can possibly make them. That is why I am particularly glad of the recommendations that secure hospital units should be established on a regional basis and that the cost of them should be met from central Government funds.
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These regional units need to be made, often in the teeth of uninformed public opinion, by an informed public minority; and I should like to see any future Government go ahead with their plans step by step, first in the North-West, then in the North-East, in the Midlands and the South-West, or in any other area where the need is greatest, to cope with the overcrowding at Broadmoor and create the local links which are so essential. Here, may I say how glad I was to hear about the new Park Lane Hospital. Shorn of any connection with private hospitals supported by the oil sheikhs of the Gulf, the name alone should give the hospital a good start; and it might well be an advantage if Broadmoor Hospital also could be renamed, just as the old Cancer Hospital was renamed, and called instead the Crowthorne Hospital, or by some other such name, which could divest it of its ill-starred and all too familiar image.
Here, too, may I confess that the Butler Report has led me to change my previous attitude to the Earlswood project at Redhill. Under proper security safeguards, there is an urgent need for the new security units to be sited as near as possible to established hospitals where facilities for treatment and research already exist. I hate the term "medium secure unit", and wish these secure units could be made as flexible and adaptable as possible. This can be done only by prolonged observation, perhaps even by trial and error, on the part of understanding and experienced medical officers. They have to work closely with the Mental Health Review Tribunals, who must also have a clear insight, even as intelligent laymen, into the pathology of mental disease, with all its implications for the patient's family as well as the patient himself. Perhaps the wisdom and experience of the Crowthorne Hospital staff can be lent for training purposes to the regional secure units, once they are established.
Mentally abnormal patients show such a kaleidoscopic variety of personality complications that years of experience are needed on the part of the RMO, in addition to his basic humanity, which must be taken for granted, before a decision on their future can be reached. Here, the personality of the RMO is of paramount importance. His conditions

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of work must be rendered as helpful as possible. His periods of study leave, especially in English-speaking countries abroad, must be encouraged. Everything ought to be done to protect the RMO, as well as the patient, from the risk of becoming institutionalised. Here may I say how I was struck at Crowthorne by the small population of coloured patients and the occasional references to the word "repatriation". Could my noble friend touch upon this in his reply? I realise that it is a delicate problem where that world "repatriation" is used for the able-bodied normal citizen: how much more is it liable to misinterpretation in the case of the coloured patient who is mentally ill! I recall a visit to a hospital for the mentally ill in Nigeria some years ago, where we were told that its surrounding barrier was not to prevent the patients from escaping, but to prevent others outside from breaking in. Perhaps that is an ideal we ought to aim for in this country.
I rather like the description, given in a report of the South-West Regional Health Authority, of what a regional secure unit might be,
"a cheerful community, therapeutically orientated, combining as much of a homely atmosphere as can be contrived, with an unobstrusive barrier that will restrict the residents' freedom to wander off at will"—
and, may I add, also with a local identity which would be therapeutically helpful in establishing links with the local community. I believe that such a goal is not utopian. I believe we are edging slowly towards it now, and that one day it will be attained.
6.48 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I should like to say at the outset what a valuable, indeed stimulating, debate this has been, and I think it is right to say on behalf of us all how grateful we are to the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, for having initiated it, and indeed to all noble Lords who have participated in it. The noble Lord, Lord Allen, has a high degree of expertise in these matters, not only as a former Permanent Under-Secretary at the Home Office but also of course because the position which he had some time before
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that in dealing with what is now the Criminal Law Department of the Home Office; and I will, if I may, deal rather later with a number of detailed points which he put to me in that particular area.
I think it it is also right to say how glad we all were to have the opportunity to hear the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Saffron Walden, today; he made a vigorous speech. Again, I should like to deal with a number of the points which he raised. I think he was savage to the Home Office, his old Department, on only one issue, and that was on the quality of the pork pies provided by the Home Office when he was Chairman of the Royal Commission. I would say only this to him, that I take note of that point. I am glad to say that I was not in the Home Office at the time; nor was the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, Permanent Under-Secretary. But I take note of the noble Lord's remarks on this matter, and I will gladly draw them to the attention of the Home Office to ensure that the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure is not enabled to make a similar complaint in the future.
Normally on these occasions I try to deal with a substantial number of points of detail which have been raised. Unhappily, I shall not be able to do so to the same degree on this occasion because I want to deal with a series of points of substance in this matter, and also to indicate a number of our provisional I conclusions about some of the recommendations of the Butler Committee. That being so, I think I shall not be able to deal with the points raised in as much detail as I otherwise would have done. May I apologise for that. I can assure the House that my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell and I will deal in correspondence with these particular points of detail which have been raised.
Before I begin to make any particular point of detail I should like to start with two general propositions—and one of them was anticipated by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield—dealing with the Government's response to the report of the Butler Committee. First, there is the question of resources and priorities. The economic situation has prevented the Government, and would have prevented any Government, from doing many of the things they would ideally have liked to do.

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Many of the Butler Committee recommendations would involve very considerable expenditure. Whether we have got our priorities right within the total of available resources is, I would concede, an entirely different matter; but anything that might be added to expenditure on the subjects covered by the Butler Committee would only have to be met by savings elsewhere.
I think that I can say—and in this I hope I will get the assent of two former Chancellors of the Exchequer who are with us at the moment, including the noble Lord, Lord Butler, himself—that if we had not taken a particularly rigorous attitude on the question of public expenditure in the immediate past we would not now be in a position to begin to emerge from our period of economic difficulties. I take note of what the noble Lord has said in terms of priority for the future. I will make certain that that particular view, so vigorously expressed, is passed on to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.
Second, I think that the House might find it helpful if I explained the manner in which the Butler Committee made its recommendations. There are, first, some recommendations of a pretty broad nature exhorting, in the words of Recommendation 126, "a massive injection of money" into certain fields of current central and local government activity. Then there are a number of recommendations for new administrative arrangements. The recommendation about the Advisory Board on Restricted Patients, on which I shall have something to say in a moment, is one obvious example. Then there are a large number of recommendations the implementation of which would clearly require legislation. These recommendations are, in turn, divided between those which would involve amendment of the Mental Health Act 1959 and those which could be implemented only in what would be, demonstrably, criminal justice legislation.
As for the very important recommendations for amending Part V of the Mental Health Act—the Part which deals with mentally disordered people who have committed criminal offences—I must say straight away that I shall not be in a position to announce any decision this evening. The reason for this is that, far from failing to react to the Butler Report,
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the Government have been actively reviewing the Mental Health Act as a whole. The Inter-Departmental Committee considering the matter published in August 1976 a consultative document setting out what were their provisional conclusions on the changes required in the Act and inviting views from interested bodies and individuals.
In the light of the response to the document—and I might say that the response has been substantial in quantity and closely argued in quality—the Government are now drawing up legislative proposals. We hope to publish them in the form of a White Paper before the summer. This is a point which was put to me. I do not think it would be right for me to seek to anticipate the proposals that the White Paper will contain.
Purely by way of illustration, however, let me say that the White Paper will contain the Government's proposals on the difficult question of whether, and, if so, in what circumstances, people suffering from psychopathic disorders should be compulsorily detained in hospital. This issue has been the cause of a great deal of concern in the debate. It will be dealt with in the White Paper which also will refer to the Butler Committee's recommendation for giving the courts new powers to remand mentally disordered people to hospital as an alternative to prison in circumstances where, for example, a medical report is required. On this we hope shortly to undertake a consultative exercise.
I should like to give another illustration of the conceptual and practical difficulties that the White Paper will attempt to resolve. This relates to the duration of restriction orders made under Section 65 of the Mental Health Act. The view of the Butler Committee was that the courts ought to be free to make restriction orders wherever they think this necessary in order to protect the public from serious harm and that, furthermore, all such orders should be without limitation of time. Since the report has been published, however, the National Association for Mental Health (MIND) has produced Volume 2 of A Human Condition, their special study of the law relating to mentally abnormal offenders. They take a different view from the one put forward by the Butler Committee.

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They propose that an unlimited restriction order should be available only in respect of offences which involve serious violence against persons or property, and that in all other cases the term of the restriction order should be proportional to the gravity of the current offence. I mention this matter now because it seems to me to exemplify the complexity of this issue and the high moral and political questions which are involved in this field.
I should like now to come on to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, on an important aspect of the Butler Committee recommendations on which I can say that action has been taken in the light of the Committee's views. That is over the release of dangerous mentally disordered offenders from hospitals. As your Lordships have been reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, and others, it was the tragic case of Graham Young which provided the immediate occasion for the setting up of the Butler Committee. The Committee devoted a great deal of attention to the detailed procedure for obtaining the opinion of an independent advisory board on proposals for the discharge or transfer of restricted patients. This procedure was instituted in 1973 following the report of the Aavold Committee on the Review of Procedures for the Discharge and Supervision of Psychiatric Patients subject to Special Restrictions. It was limited to the fairly small number of restricted patients in the special hospitals whose cases had been previously identified as requiring "special care in assessment".
The House may recall that the Butler Committee recommended that all proposals for the discharge or transfer of restricted patients in the special hospitals should come within the purview of the advisory board and, in addition, that the board should continue to be concerned with former special-hospital-restricted patients subsequently as regards the grant of leave and their eventual discharge from local hospitals or secure units and throughout their period of supervision, including the question of recall, if it arose.
When the Butler Report was published, the then Home Secretary, Mr. Jenkins, welcomed the Committee's further guidance on this difficult problem and accepted
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in principle that there should be an extension of the present procedure. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary, while also accepting that some extension of the present procedure is clearly warranted, considers that the Committee's proposals if implemented as a whole would extend the functions of the present Advisory Board on Restricted Patients beyond the point that it is necessary or practicable to do so.
He has, therefore, decided to reject the Butler Committee proposals concerning the board with restricted patients subsequent to their discharge or transfer from a special hospital. As regards the Committee's central recommendation that all proposals for the discharge or transfer of restricted patients in the special hospitals should be referred to the board, my right honourable friend has now decided that it would not be right to accept this recommendation as it stands. He considers that the indiscriminate reference to an independent board of all special hospital cases, regardless of merits, would involve an unwarranted diminution of the responsibility of the doctors for the assessment of their patients. On the other hand, he certainly accepts that there are strong arguments for extending the range of cases in which he receives an independent opinion on proposals for discharge or transfer from the special hospitals.
In the light of these considerations, we have decided to introduce a revised procedure on the following lines. Under this procedure, which took effect on 1st March, it is assumed from the outset that all cases of restricted patients in the special hospitals require special care in assessment, such that they should be referred to the advisory board. But it is open to the responsible medical officer at any time to recommend to the Home Office that a case is sufficiently straightforward, having regard to factors such as the patient's diagnosis, response to treatment, prognosis and so on, not to merit reference to the board. Where such a recommendation is received by the Home Office, considerable weight is attached to it. But the Home Office reserve the right to refer to the board, whatever the clinical assessment, any cases where it is thought that the public interest requires this because of the seriousness of the particular offence or the notoriety of the offender. In cases of doubt, the bias of the Home

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Office will be in favour of reference to the board. Where the responsible medical officer is not prepared to submit a recommendation that a patient's case is too straightforward to require reference to the board, any proposal for the patient's discharge or transfer is automatically referred to the advisory board.
My right honourable friend is confident that this new procedure, as well as extending the range of cases coming before the advisory board, will be found by those who have to operate it to be more flexible and more straightforward than are the former arrangements.
Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves that point, I think it is a serious statement that part of this recommendation is rejected. I am as keen as anybody else to look after the freedom of the subject, but we have been very worried at the decisions of some of the doctors. Is the noble Lord satisfied that this new procedure, which I shall be very interested to study and which seems to be very comprehensive, will be able to get round a bad decision by a local doctor?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, we have gone into this matter very carefully. As the noble Lord has rightly said, I have made a fairly complex statement on what is a most complex issue. We have gone into this matter with considerable care. We have come to the conclusion that the public interest will be adequately safeguarded by these arrangements; we certainly would not have contemplated them otherwise. If, after the noble Lord has had the opportunity of studying what I have said, he has any points, I will gladly look into any matter.
The Butler Committee also recommended that the Board should be involved in the recall of former special hospital patients. In my right honourable friend's view, mental health review tribunals are more suitable bodies to offer him advice on such matters than would be the Advisory Board on Restricted Patients. He therefore proposes, having consulted the council on tribunals and chairmen of mental health review tribunals, to promote an appropriate Amendment to the Mental Health Act 1959. The Amendment might take the form of a provision that on the
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recall of a restricted patient to hospital, his case should automatically be referred to a tribunal for advice on discharge.
In the light of this, it will not be necessary for us to reconstitute the present advisory board, as the Butler Committee recommended. I should like to take this opportunity of echoing Lord Butler's words to pay a warm tribute to the members of the board, and particularly to Sir Carl Aarvold, their chairman, for their careful and conscientious work, which will be added to by the new arrangements that I have just announced. My right honourable friend greatly values—as I am sure did his predecessors—their advice on these exceptionally difficult cases.
I should now like to turn to some other aspects of the report which has been mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, and Lord Butler. These are the recommendations concerning persons who are under a disability in relation to trial, and those concerning the special verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity, which may be returned by the Crown Court. This is an extraordinarily difficult and complex area of the law, raising as it does the whole question of the circumstances in which mental abnormality should be accepted as excusing an offender from criminal responsibility. The sheer complexity of these issues led the Committee to devote no less than 34 separate recommendations and two chapters of their report to these subjects.
We have now completed our preliminary examination of all these recommendations. We shall be circulating consultative papers within the next few weeks setting out our provisional conclusions on them and asking interested bodies and individuals for their comments. I shall arrange for copies of these papers to be placed in the Library of the House. But I think it would be appropriate today if I were to give a broad outline of the provisional conclusions which will be embodied in the documents. I will try to be as brief as possible and to avoid technicalities, but I fear I will not be wholly successful. I shall start with disability.
The Butler Committee were not satisfied that the present law—which is contained in the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964—provides a sufficient safeguard against the possibility that a defendant

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who is innocent of the offence charged, and thus entitled to an acquittal, may nevertheless because of his mental condition be unable to avoid a finding that he is unfit to plead and his committal to hospital. To meet such cases, the Butler Committee proposed that a new procedure should be introduced under which, where the defendant is found to be under disability, there would nevertheless be a trial of the facts to the fullest extent possible, having regard to the mental condition of the person concerned. The main object of the procedure would be to enable the jury to return a verdict of not guilty where the evidence was not sufficient for a conviction. The normal rules of evidence and burden of proof would apply. Where the jury were unable to acquit, they would return a verdict that
"the defendant should be dealt with as a person under disability".
The Committee also suggested other improvements to the law. First, where disability has been found and there is on medical evidence a prospect of early recovery, the judge should have discretion to adjourn the trial for a maximum period of six months. Second, the court should have a discretion as to the disposal of persons ordered to be dealt with as under disability, with power to make a variety of social or medical orders ranging between a hospital order with restrictions and an absolute discharge, but with overtly penal sanctions excluded. And, third, magistrates' courts should be given equivalent powers to those of the Crown Court if dealing with persons under disability.
In general, the Committee's recommendations seem to us to be acceptable. The consultative paper on disability will thus welcome them in principle. The holding of a trial of the facts in every case, as the Committee proposed, would have the obvious advantage of providing as complete a safeguard as could be devised against the possibility of an innocent defendant being found under disability and committed indefinitely to hospital. But we do have certain reservations about the practicability and effectiveness of the detailed procedure recommended by the Butler Committee, one of which is that the procedure would lead to an acquittal in cases where the defendant did some act, possibly of a violent nature,
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but because of his mental state at the time it is not clear that criminal responsibility for an offence can properly be attributed to him.
As to the special verdict, the Committee considered that as a matter of principle the law should continue to provide for an exemption from criminal responsibility, and therefore from punishment, for offenders suffering at the time of the offence from mental disorder of an appropriate degree of severity. But they took the view that the present test for such exemption, the so-called M'Naghten rules, was unsatisfactory in that it is framed in archaic language, and too strictly, with the result that it can cover offenders to whom it is accepted that no criminal responsibility should attach only through being stretched. They considered that although the defence of insanity is nowadays rarely put forward, having for most practical purposes been superseded by the defence of diminished responsibility which was introduced by the Homicide Act 1957, there were sound reasons for retaining it.
They therefore devoted a great deal of time and practical ingenuity to devising a suitable replacement test. The formula they came up with is of considerable complexity, but basically there are two elements: a mens rea element, approximating to the first limb of the M'Naghten rules, and a specific exemption from conviction for defendants suffering at the time of the act or omission charged from severe mental illness or severe sub-normality. Other important proposals made by the Committee in this area of the law were that magistrates' courts should be allowed to return the special verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity", and that, as in cases of disability, the courts should be given a measure of discretion as to disposal, with broadly the same powers to make a variety of social or medical orders ranging between a hospital order with restrictions and an absolute discharge.
The Committee's replacement test for the special verdict is considered in detail in the consultative paper we are circulating on this subject. The relevant passage, while seeking comments from practitioners, suggests that the test, although at first sight it appears to be rather complicated

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and difficult, would probably turn out to be workable in practice and capable of application in the magistrates' courts.
On the question of disposal of persons found under disability or not guilty by reason of insanity, we do see some difficulty. Under the present law, success in an insanity defence—and also a finding of disability—must result in the defendant's committal to hospital, where his status becomes that of a person made subject to a hospital order with a restriction order made without limit of time.
The justification of the present law is, quite bluntly, the protection of the public. The provision ensures that, for example, persons who have committed serious acts of violence but do not currently meet the criteria for hospital admission set out in the Mental Health Act, are not simply set at large, which they would otherwise have to be, as a prison sentence would not be available in such cases. However, under the Butler proposals the court would be able to send a defendant to hospital only if the usual requirement for making a hospital order had been satisfied. Thus, the court must have received evidence that the defendant is suffering from one of four categories of mental disorder named in the Mental Health Act of a nature or degree warranting his detention in hospital for a medical treatment and that there is a place for him in a particular hospital. If these requirements were not satisfied, under the Butler proposals the court would have no choice but to set the defendant at large.
The tentative conclusion which is put forward in the paper we shall be circulating on the special verdict is that there are strong arguments in favour of what the Butler Committee recommended, at least in so far as the medical reason for the making of a hospital order is concerned. But the Committee's recommendations would mean that, because the court would have no power to pass a sentence of imprisonment on such a defendant, they would be obliged to free even those whom the court considered dangerous, even if no hospital place had been found.
The paper therefore argues that this is in fact unacceptable and proposes that in cases of disability and of the special verdict, courts should have the power in the last resort to make hospital orders
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in the absence of evidence as to the availability of a hospital place, provided that they receive two medical recommendations in support of this proposed course of action. It would be left to the Home Office to give or to obtain a hospital place within the ensuing two months, as under the prevailing arrangements. So far as this particular view is concerned, we shall be interested to have the views of the Judiciary.
This debate has inevitably centred on a number of fairly detailed questions of the kind I have just been dealing with. My noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell spent a great deal of time on the point of secure units in his speech. I should just like to deal with one aspect of this matter concerning a question put to me at the outset of the debate by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, about the scale of the problem so far as prisons are concerned. I think we can state this problem very simply so far as secure units are concerned. If we do not get them, a large number of mentally ill people are going to remain in prison. It is quite unavoidable: no regional secure units—a large number of mentally ill people in prison.
The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, mentioned a figure of 900. He is quite right: that figure appeared in the Press. I believe it appeared as a result of a fairly rough survey conducted by the Prison Department of the Home Office earlier last year. As so often happens, some necessary qualifications were omitted; for example, the figure of 900 included a number of prisoners who required psychiatric therapy but whose condition was not serious enough to warrant detention in hospital.
The Home Office is continuing to carry out surveys of mentally disordered patients, and I hope that as we go along these exercises will get progressively more refined. The last survey took place on 31st December last. It showed that on that day there were in our prisons 682 people whose mental condition, in the opinion of the prison medical authorities, warranted detention in hospital. Of the total, 216 were awaiting trial or sentence. Of the total number of sentenced prisoners, 201 were diagnosed as "mentally ill" as distinct from "suffering from mental handicap or psychiatric disorder".

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That is the scale of the problem, and I think those figures are as accurate as we are likely to get. It is a formidable problem because 680-odd people are kept in all manner of Prison Department establishments, from some of our dispersal prisons to local prisons; and some of the others in local prisons are fairly young teenagers, who are there because there is not enough secure accommodation of a different character in community homes.
It does not seem to me that there is anything particularly liberal about not having enough secure accommodation; in fact the very reverse is true. I remember taking part in a discussion some time ago when someone with greater knowledge than I said that I was devoting too much attention to the question of secure accommodation so far as children were concerned. I pointed out that the consequence of not having such accommodation was that those children went to prison. In exactly the same way, if we do not have enough of these regional secure units, prison is where these people will go, and we now have the situation that some of these children and some of these mentally disordered people are in the same prisons. That is a profoundly disturbing situation, which indicates very clearly the scale of the problem with which the Government are now confronted.
We have had an opportunity in this debate of dealing with some of the central issues which were raised in the report of the Butler Committee. They are, as the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, rightly said, of high importance: first, in dealing with some of our most grievously disadvantaged fellow citizens; and, secondly, in ensuring the safety of the general public. I think, again, that we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Allen, for having initiated this debate.
7.21 p.m.
Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALE: My Lords, it has been extremely helpful, and in my experience, limited though it is, a little unusual, to have speeches from two Ministers in this debate. But I suppose that it is appropriate, when the Committee itself was set up by two Secretaries of State one of whom, I am glad to see, has now joined us on the Opposition Front Bench. I was very glad to have the assurances of
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the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, that the concept of regional secure units has not been ditched, and to listen to his extremely interesting discussion about the purposes of the units. I also listened carefully and with great interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has just been saying about the decisions which have been taken, and the promise of goodies to come.
It is a complicated and difficult subject and I shall not say any more, since I, like I think most noble Lords, should like to read with care the record of what has been said. My only further comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is that I am afraid he was not quite accurate in suggesting that I had left the Home Office before the Butler Committee started to operate. In fact, I had the privilege of giving the inaugural evidence to the Committee and, not only that, the privilege of attending their inaugural lunch, at which pork pies were not on the menu. I am afraid that the standard must have deteriorated after I retired.
But it was a privilege, and for me quite a nostalgic one, to hear such a notable speech from the noble Lord, Lord Butler. I do not want to end on a critical note, but I have just one breath of criticism of what he said. He indicated that in my opening speech I had gone over pretty well the whole territory covered by the Committee's report. In fact, I can make no such claim, and I am extremely grateful for the various contributions which have been made in the speeches during the debate, on the areas on which I myself did not touch.
I shall make only two very quick points on the speeches which have been made. First, the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, was, in a measure, critical of the drafting of the Motion, and he read the words,
"To call attention to the outstanding recommendations made in the reports",
as implying that a lot had been implemented. It was not drafted with any such intention. It was just drafted with my normal kindliness, in acknowledgement of the fact that something, at any rate, had been done.
Then there were two points made by the noble Earl, Lord Longford, and the noble Lady, Lady Kinloss, which really illustrated the whole problem that we are talking about. The friends of the noble

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Earl, the shop stewards, said that they wanted no part of violent patients who had to be treated in conditions of security, but, unfortunately, the problem will not go away. I said in my opening that it is always very comforting to think that someone else will cope, and this is what the shop stewards were doing. But someone has to find a solution.
Then the noble Lady, Lady Kinloss, in her very interesting speech, suggested that the Home Secretary was perhaps not paying sufficient attention to the wise guidance of the doctors who knew these patients so well. But I am bound to say, without being in any sense critical, that it was on medical advice that Graham Young was released, which is what started it all off. I have one other comment on the speeches. Perhaps I could get together with the noble Lord, Lord Butler, after the debate and give him some guidance about the backdoor to the Elephant and Castle, which I happen to know rather more about than the backdoor to the new Home Office in Queen Anne's Gate.
We have had a debate which has cut right across Party lines. It has elicited most interesting statements about the approach of Her Majesty's Government. We shall not inquire too closely into what has been happening between 1975 and the statements made today. But if, in addition, the debate has done anything to enlighten public opinion, and to emphasise not only the complexity but also the urgency of these problems, it will have served its modest purpose. My Lords, I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Lord BUTLER of SAFFRON WALDEN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Harris, whether, besides his very able speech, there will be any White Paper, or shall we just rely on Hansard?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I indicated earlier that there would be a White Paper on one area. I also indicated that we should be putting some papers, on a different but related matter, in the Library of the House. But I have given some fairly clear indication of the territory which these papers will cover.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn

CHINA: ARMS EXPORT POLICY
7.26 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY The Earl of KIMBERLEY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is their policy on exporting military equipment, such as aircraft, tanks and ships, to China. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I realise that this Question is a very controversial one, and there are two aspects to it—financial and moral. I believe that my noble friend Lord Strathcona will be enlarging on the moral point of view, while the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, will deal with the financial aspect. But first things first. We have the aircraft and shipbuilding industries, which have been nationalised for just about a year, both sides of which build military and naval equipment. So that, looking at the matter from a financial point of view, if we exported more both companies would be considerably better off. That is not to say that we do not already export arms to certain countries, because we do. British Aerospace, through Hawker Siddeley, has just done a very fine deal in selling Hawks to Finland. But about two years ago, I raised the question of selling jump jet Harriers to China, and the answer I received was very non-committal.
Today, I am very honoured that the noble Lord the Leader of the House is to reply for the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, knows that I speak my mind and if, by chance, I ruffle feathers this evening, or come on a bit strong, I know that at least I shall have his understanding, if not necessarily his agreement. Further, the noble Lord well knows that there is no personal animosity directed against any Member of your Lordships' Chamber, because it has been said and rumoured that Her Majesty's Government will not export arms to China, as two-thirds of the Cabinet are worried about what the United States will say, while the other one-third are worried about what Russia will say.
But whatever may be the reasons for the lack of drive in the export of arms to China, it is, in my humble opinion, a wrong decision. There is no possible doubt that if China's defences were bolstered up by the West, and particularly by us, NATO and the whole of the Western world would have a very much stronger hand to play in the game of

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détente, particularly as the game is, at the moment, played under Russian rules. I have said before in defence debates that you cannot have true détente unless you have parity of power. Alas! it is a sad thing to say, but through the imperfections of the human race that is the way life is.
The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, wrote an extremely interesting, although very frightening, article in The Times last Monday, about the Russian SS.20, which is their new intermediate-range ballistic missile. He asked the planners whether they had an answer to it. I am so pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, is going to speak tonight, because he is a true expert in this field. His knowledge and wisdom will add greatly to the depth and quality of this Unstarred Question. May I hazard a small suggestion that a partial solution to the problem which the noble Lord raised about this missile must surely be to make Russia's Eastern flank more vulnerable.
In the summer of 1972, China became very interested in the Harrier. It would be a very great asset to them on their Russian frontier, where they have very few runways and where their ground forces badly need air support. I am given to understand that the subject is continually raised at banquets in the Great Hall of the People, particularly when foreigners speak to Chinese officials; but I understand that since the present Government were elected, the British Embassy in Peking usually comes up with the stock answer that the Chinese have never put their request in writing. Of course the Chinese have not put their request in writing, for if the request were to be turned down they would lose face.
I believe it is a fact that on 4th November the Foreign Office denied that any approach had ever been made to them by China. On 6th December in another place, at col. 1098, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force said:
"I think that in matters of this nature it would be best to await a formal approach from the Government of the People's Republic of China. When that approach comes, if it comes, it will be properly considered under the normal arrangements."
He went on:
"When and if we receive an application from the Government of the People's Republic of China we shall consider all the factors, including the economic and political ones."
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He ended by saying at col. 1099:
"If we receive such an application—it is purely a hypothetical matter at the moment, because no such application has been received—from the Government of the People's Republic of China we shall adopt the normal procedure of going through COCOM and then coming to a decision."
The second reason that the embassy usually gives is that there would be a problem with COCOM. As your Lordships know, this is the organisation, based in Paris, which controls arms sales to Communist countries. But we seem to have forgotten one point: that in 1972 when ex-President Nixon visited China, China became an unofficial ally of the United States. Surely, therefore, the second reason is null and void.
The third and last reason given by the embassy is that it would anger Russia. I think it is about time that the ugly Russian bear was baited a little by the English bulldog. Our foreign policy today seems to be strangely familiar and reminiscent of that of the 1930s—appeasement, appeasement and appeasement, particularly where there seems to be any Soviet Communist influence. We, and the Americans over the Horn of Africa, have, in my humble opinion, become far too pacifistic and wet. If we and the rest of our Western allies have any respect for our liberty, we should start doing something about it right now, before it is too late.
One cannot possibly blame the British Embassy in Peking for being lukewarm, because their policy is directed from Whitehall. And in no way do I imply that there are no dedicated Foreign Office officials in Peking. However, the embassy does not provide the services which are offered to businessmen from France and Germany through their embassies. It is extremely difficult to get a visa for China, unless you are a Peer. But the French and the Germans freely give letters of invitation to responsible businessmen and women. I think it is significant that when Mr. Li Chiang, the Chinese Foreign Trade Minister, was here at the end of November last and spoke to the Secretary of State for Trade, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, we never heard what happened. All we know is that this Chinese trade delegation went to France and spent a considerably longer time in that country.
If I may make another small point, the French and the Germans provide a room in their embassies which contains airmail newspapers in order that while visiting businessmen are in China they can keep up to date with what is happening throughout the world. But the British do not do this. Lastly, the French and the Germans are way ahead of us in organising visits for their Chiefs of Staff and military delegates, although I understand that the Chief of Defence staff, Sir Neil Cameron, is shortly to visit China. However, I have also been given to understand that for quite a while now a sales team from British Aerospace has wanted to go to China, but somewhere along the line their visit has been, as usual, held up.
We give financial aid to some countries who seem intent on promoting Soviet-type Communism throughout the world. May I ask the Government to consider that perhaps it might be better in some instances to stop this aid and at the same time to start exporting military equipment to a country which (a) would pay for it, and (b) would help to keep Russian defences more occupied on their Eastern flank? I believe that we in the West should show a realistic respect for the vital interests of Russia, but I do not see that that is any reason why we should refrain from any action that upsets Russia. NATO exists to defend the Western world by trying to maintain a military balance with the Warsaw Pact countries. If NATO's task can be made any easier by Russia being forced to show some respect for the military strength of China, so much the better. Therefore, by exporting military equipment to China we are making a larger contribution to NATO.
I gather that the sale of warships is not too good a prospect, but that specialised equipment for ships, such as radar, communications systems, computers, generators, et cetera, would be more than welcome—and we can always throw in a few Chieftain tanks. We have the Society of Defence Manufacturers' Association which seems to concentrate its efforts mainly on the European market. Therefore may I ask Her Majesty's Government this question: If it is their policy not to export arms to China, will they please reconsider this policy? If, on the other hand, they wish to export arms to China, will they try to do all that
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they can to help our salesmen to get on with the job?
I repeat that it is no good waiting for the Chinese to ask, as they are terrified of losing face. We must go to them. Let us not forget that an order for 100 Harriers would be worth £600 million to us as a start.
7.37 p.m.
Viscount MONTGOMERY of ALAMEIN: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, for asking this Unstarred Question, but I must say that he is going to be rather difficult to follow. He is obviously very knowledgable on this subject, but I am going to take a slightly different line from the noble Earl. On the subject of difficult visits, the noble Earl may like to know that in the early 1960s my late father visited China at the time when the United Kingdom was negotiating the sale of Vickers Aircraft to China. However, it was a pure coincidence that his visit should take place at the same time. For some reason, not entirely clear although my late father's visits and travels were frequently controversial, the Foreign Office took rather a dim view of his visit. Indeed, when the ubiquitous spokesman for the Foreign Office was asked how many aircraft were being negotiated for export sale, he replied that there were five Viscounts, if you included the Field Marshal. He hoped that at least one would be concluded!
I have not given the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, who is to reply, notice of my intentions as they relate mainly to common sense. My experience of speaking outside the Chamber to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal is that he is very high up in the common sense league table. I have no experience of defence sales, but the export of ships, aircraft and the like is very similar to the sales of other capital goods. It depends to a very large extent upon building up goodwill over a very long time.
A well-intentioned, very distinguished but regrettably ill-informed politician some years ago said that, "exporting is fun". Having been involved in little else for the last 27 years I can assure your Lordships that it is not. It is extremely hard work, but absolutely fascinating. As I have said, the success of our overseas trade depends on goodwill, well established

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friendship and an ability to supply the right goods at the right price and on the right terms. Obviously a paramount feature of credibility and goodwill is the sanctity of contract, about which much has been said on various occasions. Sanctity of contract must be a pillar on which rests the credibility of our capability to supply. There has been a recent case in which a contract has been negotiated and subsequently cancelled for political reasons. Although it is in a different part of the world I think it illustrates the point that I am trying to make. I refer to the recent sale and subsequent cancellation of a very small consignment of armoured cars for E1 Salvador.
On 8th December last, when this matter was being discussed in Question Time, I asked the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, whether he would not agree that if negotiations were reopened on this contract it would raise doubts about our credibility as a supplier of capital goods. The noble Lord entirely, and quite rightly, agreed with me that that would be the case. I am not resurrecting the E1 Salvador issue as such, but I should like to make the point that the exporting of capital goods will become increasingly difficult unless we are consistent in our policy regarding overseas trade. I would very much appreciate comments from the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal on that matter.
As the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, pointed out, the manufacture of defence equipment is an important industry. In this respect it is no different from other heavy industry requiring finance and labour. The United Kingdom has such an industry but it needs a stable economic climate to prosper. If the Government wish to stifle it they must say so. If the Government take political decisions and subsequently cancel sales, clients will go elsewhere, and there is no shortage of alternative supplies. It may be politics, but it is not very practical.
Whatever we do we must not prejudice the good relations that exist between suppliers of capital goods in this country and their overseas clients. These carry on over many years irrespective of the political philosophy in this country, which tends to oscillate, whereas our sales overseas, on which the lifeblood of the
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country depends, must continue despite these fluctuations. A more stable and less contentious attitude would assist our commercial relations in all overseas markets, not only in China.
7.43 p.m.
Lord CHALFONT: My Lords, like the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, I am very grateful to the noble Earl for initiating this short debate this evening and giving me an opportunity to contribute to it. Although he framed his Question in the rather special context of military equipment, I think it gives your Lordships' House the chance to consider, however briefly and however late in the evening, a fundamental change of a very important kind which is taking place in Chinese foreign and economic policies, a change which has enormous significance for us in the West, the West as a whole, and more specifically for the countries of Western Europe. I sometimes wonder whether we in Western Europe, and more especially in this country, really have any coherent strategy at all, any view of the world within which to consider our reactions to what is a constantly changing world scene. I hope it may be possible before too long in your Lordships' House to have a wider debate on that kind of subject and on such matters as the broader implications of relations with the People's Republic of China.
However, in the meantime it might be useful to place on record a very brief outline of the background of the changes which are now taking place and which make the noble Earl's Question so topical, and to my mind so important. Chairman Mao Tse-tung and Prime Minister Chou En-Lai are both dead. After a period of intense political turbulance in China we now have a new leadership, and China is clearly embarked on a fundamental process of reassessing its whole economic planning, and not only its internal economic planning but its place in the international power structure. Over the past year in China, without any great fuss or publicity, there have been a series of vital conferences on such things as the mechanisation of agriculture, the development of coal, oil and other energy sources, on railways, on communications and not least on the subject which is at the heart of the noble Earl's Question today, the question of defence.

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The culmination of this process of reappraisal by the new Chinese Government has been the Fifth National People's Congress which has just been completed in Peking. In the course of a long report to that congress on the work of the Government, the new Prime Minister of China, Hua Kuo-Feng, underlined the new basic national aim of his country—that of making China, by the end of the century, a powerful, modern, socialist, industrialist country. The basis for this transformation was laid down before his death by Chou En-Lai, who made it clear that there had to be a fundamental transformation in four areas of the Chinese economy and society. Those four areas were agriculture, industry, science and technology and, finally, defence—the military establishment of the military defences of China.
The new Prime Minister, Prime Minister Hua, made it very clear in his speech to the Fifth Congress at the end of February that China cannot hope to realise this vast and imaginative programme without help from the outside world, the industrialised world; and he was doing nothing more than underlining a statement by the State Planning Commission in Peking in September of last year to the effect that substantial imports of foreign equipment, foreign plant and foreign technology should now, for a change—and this is something new in China's thinking—be regarded as not only acceptable but inevitable. At the risk of taking a few seconds longer, I think it may be worth while to quote from that statement by the State Planning Commission, because I think it is a statement of enormous significance:
"While we rely on our own efforts to build up an independent and comprehensive economic system, this does not mean we are closing our doors to the rest of the world. We must expand our economic, technical and cultural exchange with other countries on the principle of equality, mutual benefit, and one supplying what the other needs. We must learn hard from the good experience of other countries and combine this with our own originality. We learn from other countries and introduce their advanced technology to meet our needs, not to hinder but to promote our own creativeness, not to weaken but to increase our ability to develop our national economy and achieve modernisation independently".
A long quotation, my Lords, but I think it underlines a fundamental change in the emphasis of Chinese foreign policy and one that we shall ignore at our peril.
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As it is, to say the very least, unlikely that there will be in the future any serious co-operation between China and the Soviet Union, it follows that the implications for the West are enormous. For example, in the non-defence field there are quite clearly great industrial and export opportunities over a very wide field, including railways, field plant, oil exploration, coal mining, aerospace technology—all the areas to which the noble Earl referred in passing in his opening speech. Already there have been a number of missions both ways between this country and China, and, of course, the framework of co-operation between the Common Market and China is in an advanced state of development.
This will not be easy, of course. The Chinese political system, highly centralised, with an economy totally State-dominated and State-controlled, does not make commercial relations between us and them easy. But there is now a great opportunity not only to assist in the transformation of the Chinese economy and Chinese society—which in themselves I would have thought were admirable aims—but to do so in a way which will promote our own interests as well as those of the Chinese Government and its people.
To move, in conclusion, from the general economic field to the specific field of defence, to which the noble Earl's Question refers, it is essential, I believe, that in considering the ideas that he has put forward this evening we should understand the Chinese attitude to the international power structure. Of course, it is impossible to analyse it at any length in a debate of this kind at this time of day, but one can say very briefly that it proceeds from a fundamental mistrust of the two great super-Powers, the United States and the Soviet Union. They are regarded by the Chinese quite simply as deadly rivals for world domination, for what the Chinese call hegemony. Of the two, the Soviet Union arouses the greater hostility and mistrust in Peking. The Russians they regard as the social Imperialists, and they believe that one of the Russian aims is to separate Western Europe from the United States in order to achieve a high degree of Communist domination in the West as a step towards their aim of global imperialism.

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In this context, I think it is interesting to note that in his speech to the Fifth National Congress the new Prime Minister of China said something that I think we should all bear in mind. He said:
"At present some people in the West follow a policy of appeasement towards the Soviet Union with the fond hope of saving themselves at the expense of others. This can only whet the ambitions of the aggressors and hasten the outbreak of war".
That is the view of the Prime Minister of China.
A natural corollary of this view and of this analysis is a desire on the part of the Chinese to see the emergence of a strong and powerful Western Europe, able to pursue its own way in the world without too much domination and interference by either the Soviet Union or the United States. At the same time—and here I come to the real point, I think, which lies behind the noble Earl's Question—the Chinese recognise that they must be in a position to defend themselves, to secure their own national security. In their view, the main, indeed the only, threat to that situation comes from the Soviet Union, and it is possible to argue that one of the principal reasons for the determination of the Chinese to build up their economy and their industry, to which I referred earlier, is to provide more effectively for their means of defence. It is possible to argue that the whole of their economic and industrial policy has behind it the motivation of survival and security.
They realise only too well that their defence equipment at present is inadequate both in quantity and in quality. They are clearly not going to turn to either of the super-Powers to repair that. For similar reasons they are unlikely to turn to Japan, another possible source of supply. They will almost certainly turn to Western Europe to repair their defences. Furthermore, they will regard the readiness of the countries of the European Economic Community to help them in this respect as an acid test of our attitude towards the international power structure and towards the global foreign policies of the Soviet Union.
At the same time their own strategy is clearly undergoing a very fundamental change. In the past we have generally
1900
believed—I think with some justification—that the Chinese strategy for meeting a military invasion would be to allow the invading force to penetrate deep into the heartland of China and then to envelop them in a great People's War, which would involve tunnel warfare, guerilla warfare, all the techniques that they have learned from the profound military writings of Mao Tse-tung. I believe that is now changing. Under the new and pragmatic and rather more outward-looking leadership in Peking, I think they are now embarked upon a new and more conventional strategic doctrine which involves defending their frontiers, defending the seas around their coastline, with the nuclear weapon always, inevitably in modern warfare, in the background as the ultimate deterrent.
If this is so, and I believe it to be so, they are going to need large-scale programmes of development of military aircraft, surface ships, submarines, tanks, guns and missiles, and to equip their enormous forces with those modern weapons of war, with that modern equipment is clearly beyond their own immediate capabilities. They have, for example, only about half a dozen aircraft manufacturing centres of their own. And, of course, apart from weapons and weapon systems, they are going to need, as the noble Earl suggested, command and control equipment involving complicated electronic apparatus, advanced early warning radar networks and that kind of thing.
It is my view, which I think I share with the noble Earl, that Her Majesty's Government must have, and must be seen to have, some coherent policy in this matter. Whatever that policy may be, let us have one and let it be seen to exist. There will be—there is no mistake about it—intense competition; whatever we say about it, whatever moral positions we adopt, there will be intense competition for this kind of trade in Western Europe. Already a large Chinese military mission has spent a long time in France, and they were not there sightseeing! Unless we have some kind of policy we may be sure that our partners in Western Europe will have one.
This is, I readily admit, not a simple matter. There are many factors to be taken into account. The COCOM list of strategic materials which we are forbidden

1901
to send to Communist countries will have to be substantially revised. On the political level, there are a great number of people who genuinely and justifiably believe that it would be wrong to take sides in what is regarded as a struggle between the two Communist super-Powers. There are also—and I regret to say it—a great number of people in this country who will resist any suggestion of co-operation of this kind with the Chinese because it is against the interests of the Soviet Union; and there are, whether we like to admit it or not, a great number of people in this country for whom the interests of the Soviet Union take precedence over everything else, even over the interests of their own country.
What we must understand is that China is one of the world's great Powers and that great changes are taking place there, both in its internal development and its perception of its place in the world. We must be prepared to meet those changes with new attitudes and new assessments of own own. I very much hope that the noble Earl's Question and the short debate which is following it will make some contribution to what I believe is now essential for this country, both in our own national interests and as members of the EEC; namely, a fundamental reassessment of our political, economic and military relationships with the People's Republic of China.
Lord STONE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him one question? Is there any history of the Chinese having an atom bomb?
Lord CHALFONT: Yes, of course, my Lords, the Chinese have a nuclear weapon. They have tested it on several occasions. Recent tests demonstrated that they have a thermo-nuclear weapon of a kind which is at least as sophisticated as our own; it is approaching a degree of advanced technology similar to that of the Soviet Union and the United States.
8 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will take due note of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, that the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, in asking this comparatively confined Question is, in fact, triggering off the possibilities of a
1902
much more important debate later, when perhaps rather more noble Lords will be present to listen to what is being said.
As a trading nation with a balance of payments problem, it is very tempting to be an uninhibited free trader in the arms business, like any other profitable business. My noble friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein has already pointed out that we have a rather unusual industrial capacity and ability in this direction. Two noble Lords at least have pointed out that China is a particularly interesting case, with rather special opportunities for us. The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, has expanded on all of those matters in the authoritative and informative way that we have come to expect from him.
The qualifications that one must bear in mind as an instinctive free trader are, first, that obviously we are not going to export the most highly sensitive technological equipment to any but the most reliable and trusted of allies. With the best will in the world, I do not think that we can in any way yet include the Chinese in that category. However, of course, it is also worth pointing out that the most sophisticated equipment is not, generally speaking, the kind of equipment which is suitable to export to relatively unsophisticated countries.
The second reservation must be the export of arms to nations with whom we might reasonably anticipate that we could one day find ourselves in conflict. It is a very obvious point to make. Although we found ourselves at variance with the Chinese, for instance, over Tibet and, I suppose, to some extent over Vietnam, the reality of the power situation, as has already been explained, is that China acts as a very important restraining factor on the USSR by pinning down some of what we see as a grossly over-inflated military capacity which it feels the necessity to maintain. Again, we must not go too far down that road, because we would have no wish to act in any way provocatively towards the USSR. Indeed, I think that most of us feel that the boot is really on the other foot.
It seems to me that the real problems arise when we start making too many nice moral judgments about those with whom we do business. Unfortunately, some of those judgments include double

1903
standards. The only note of political controversy which I shall intrude for a moment into my speech is that perhaps our side is a little less prone to flagellating our consciences about this than the Party currently forming the Government. I was not intending to extend very much further into the moral issues, despite what the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, said.
However, I think that there is one point that is worth making here and it has already been touched upon. I am referring to the fact that if we do not provide the Chinese with arms, then somebody else will. It is not a wholly respectable argument for a country which still claims some degree of leadership in international affairs, but nevertheless it is a very telling one in real terms. Germany and France are the most obvious countries. I also think that it is worth making the point that any trade involves communication and an improvement in the understanding between two nations, even though we must accept that almost all forms of trade can, if we try hard enough, be diverted for what we might call para-military purposes. Communications equipment is not necessarily exclusively peaceful. Lorries can be used to transport troops, and we can extend that argument right down to things like fertilisers and disinfectants.
Coming back to the main question, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, that we ought to have a consistent policy. If there is one, many of us are not totally aware of what the Government's policy is. We ought to state it and stick to it. We should certainly avoid the kind of unhappiness to which my noble friend Lord Montgomery of Alamein referred, where contracts are broken by the instructions of the Government.
I feel that our attitude towards defence sales should be to throw the onus of proof on those who are opposed to them—that is, there should be a presumption that we can proceed with these sales unless there is a demonstrably powerful reason why we should not. I have already explained that I believe that not only does trade follow the flag, but in certain instances the flag and better understanding can follow trade. We must accept that if we do not do it other nations will try to beat us to the punch.
1904
The noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, has mentioned the French connection. I was interested to see in The Daily Telegraph of the 27th January reference to Sir Neil Cameron's proposed visit, to which the noble Lord has already referred. Clare Hollingworth said:
"It is no fault of Sir Neil that he was preceded, more than a year ago, by his French opposite number with the result that the French Prime Minister, M. Raymond Barre, recently signed a 'framework' co-operation pact with China".
I should like to ask the noble Lord: Are we being out-manoeuvred because of policy hangups, or are we suffering from a lethargy born of lack of enthusiasm? I hope that the noble Lord will be able to tell us that the Government give full and enthusiastic support to the examples of products that we can make in this country, like the Harrier, whereby we can demonstrate the continuing pre-eminence of our engineering capacity.
8.7 p.m.
Lord PEART: My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I should like to congratulate all those who have contributed. I shall deal specifically with the points that have been raised. I do not believe that there is much difference of view within the House. Occasionally one hears extravagant language—for example, the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, talked about "appeasement". I thought that that was an out-of-date word to use in this connection and I do not want to go back to those days. There is no attempt here to appease anyone. I acknowledge that this is an important subject and that is basically why I welcome the seriousness of the speeches of the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, and my noble friend Lord Chalfont who speaks, as always on defence matters, with great experience. I agree with my noble friend's analysis of the position of China and its development. May I just say to noble Lords that it is important, of course, for British industry and consequently for the jobs of those employed in it, but I am sure that noble Lords will accept that there are other considerations involved besides industrial and commercial ones.
The Government's attitude towards sales of defence equipment to any country is, and must be, a part of our general relations with that country. Therefore, I should like, first, to set the Question in

1905
context by saying a few words about our bilateral relations with China. I think that my noble friend Lord Chalfont did this clearly and succinctly. He mentioned the Fifth National People's Congress which was held recently, and confirmed the present Chinese leadership's policy of emphasising economic development, including the modernisation of agriculture, industry, science and technology and the armed forces. Although her philosophy of self-reliance remains important, China is now more willing than she was in earlier years to look abroad for some of the technology and equipment which will be necessary to achieve her ambitious economic targets. A striking example of this is the long-term trade agreement signed last month with Japan.
As has been mentioned by noble Lords, Western Europe, too, is for China a politically acceptable source of advanced equipment and high technology. We in the United Kingdom, which has had a long and friendly relationship with China—a relationship which continues to develop through increasing contacts at all levels—are naturally keen to expand our commercial relations with China in this new climate. That is the view of Her Majesty's Government. Of course, we shall not be alone in this hope—the competition from our European partners will be fierce. Mention has been made of the attitudes of France and of West Germany, and of how sometimes it has been argued that they have better facilities for their businessmen. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, that that is not true and that that argument is not justified. We give all necessary support to our people—as much as the French and Germans give to theirs—and will always follow up individual complaints. If there are individual complaints, I shall certainly take them up with the Foreign Office after this debate.
But let us not be too pessimistic. As I have said, a long-term trade agreement was signed with Japan. Naturally, we are anxious to increase our commercial relations with China in this new climate. Of course, we are not alone; and I have said, competition will be fierce. Chinese interest in developing commercial relations with European countries is evidenced by the visit of her Minister for Foreign Trade, Mr. Li Chiang, to the United Kingdom and France last November and December. Mr. Li said at that time that
1906
his visit would be followed by others, designed to explore what each country had to offer towards China's development needs.
Among the high-level delegations expected here in the next few months are an iron and steel delegation led by the Minister of Metallurgy and one composed of senior representatives from the State Planning Commission and State Capital Construction Commission. Meanwhile China has initialled a trade agreement with the European Economic Community—and we are an important part of that—which provides a framework for expansion of trade, and which Mr. Li Chiang is expected to come to Brussels to sign at the beginning of next month. I believe that all of these developments augur well for our future economic relations with China, and the British Government welcome them.
It is an acknowledged fact that some of Britain's most important industries, and some of the equipment and technology of which we are rightly proud as being undoubtedly among the best in the world, fall within or have applications within the defence sphere. It is, therefore, not surprising that the Chinese should have expressed keen interest in such items and that British companies should be keen to sell such equipment.
The Government's attitude on this question is well-known. It is that any formal approach from the Chinese Government for the sale of a particular item of equipment will be considered on its merits, and in the light of our international obligations and the political and economic circumstances prevailing at the time. Your Lordships may be tempted to regard this as too cautious and unadventurous a stance—even self-defeating, given my earlier remarks about the keenness of the competition. But, as I said at the beginning of my speech, the issues are not restricted to industrial and commercial ones.
I should like to touch briefly on some of the wider issues involved. If all that needed to be considered was the direct effect of China's military strength on the United Kingdom's security, the issue would be simple enough. China does not present a direct military threat to the United Kingdom; indeed, as I have said, we have friendly relations with China. But this is

1907
too simple an analysis; and too narrow a viewpoint. Other considerations apply. I refer, of course, to our international obligations with regard to COCOM, or, to give it its full title, the Co-ordinating Committee.
COCOM includes all the members of NATO—except Iceland—together with Japan. The Committee is a consultative body originally set up in 1950 to agree and keep under review lists of prohibited exports covering military equipment and other goods of a strategic nature which should not be exported by the West to the Sino-Soviet bloc, as it then was, for fear of compromising our own security.
It is important that we should not allow strategic considerations which were valid more than 20 years ago—and here I agree with noble Lords who have spoken—to determine what we can and cannot sell to communist countries in the very different conditions prevailing today. In particular it is no longer realistic to talk in terms of a Sino-Soviet bloc, which was stressed by my noble friend Lord Chalfont; indeed, as has been mentioned, the Chinese now regard the Soviet Union as their main enemy and as the main threat to world peace. COCOM, which remains important to the United Kingdom, has kept the strategic criteria which govern its operations under review, and has made changes designed to ensure that the criteria reflect current political and economic realities.
The Spey aero engine deal, following as it did the successful sale of Trident aircraft to China, highlighted the opportunities that exist in that market for the British aircraft and aerospace industry. That has been stressed by the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, and also by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, from the Opposition Front Bench. But it is surely clear that the implications involved in the sale of the types of equipment referred to in the noble Earl's Question—aircraft, tanks and ships—are even wider than those raised by a transfer of technology, such as the Spey deal represented. Of course, that deal highlighted the opportunities that exist in that market for the British aircraft and aerospace industry.
1908
I have said that each case must be looked at in the light of the circumstances prevailing at the time. Our relations with China are not static—indeed, I have touched on some of the ways in which they are continually improving. These growing links apply also in the field of defence relations. Last year a party of students from the Royal College of Defence Studies visited China. The Chief of the Defence Staff has accepted an invitation to pay an official visit to China—the first such visit by a United Kingdom Chief of Defence. As noble Lords know, the Chinese have been regular guests at the Farnborough Air Show, and are showing increasing interest in attending other similar exhibitions in this country and elsewhere in Europe. I do not wish to suggest that these contacts will automatically lead to sales of defence equipment. But circumstances change, and we must avoid committing ourselves to a rigid position. The attitude to our sales which I have outlined is thus shown to be, in these circumstances, the right one and in the best interests of this country.
In view of Lord Kimberley's remarks about the chicken and the egg on Harrier, it would be well to take note of what has happened in this respect. I should like to refer for a few minutes to the position of the Harrier aircraft. The Chinese first mentioned Harrier to Hawker Siddeley Aviation, now British Aerospace, at the time that the first Trident aircraft was handed over at the end of 1972. Quite naturally the company made it clear, both to the Chinese and to Her Majesty's Government, that they would like to be able to sell this aircraft to China. But the company, quite properly, also made it clear to the Chinese that such a sale would require the approval of the British Government, and that the British Government had made no commitment in this respect.
More recently the Chinese Vice-Premier, Wang-Chen, in November 1977, stated, in the presence of a visiting group of British businessmen, that China intended to acquire the Harrier. When the Chinese Minister for Foreign Trade, Mr. Li Chiang, visited Britain at the end of last year he saw a flying demonstration of the Harrier. The British Government are, therefore, well aware of Chinese interest in this aircraft. The British Government's

1909
general policy, which I have outlined, applies equally to the Harrier. The Government have stated their willingness to consider any formal proposal which the Chinese Government may wish to put forward.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, may I interrupt for one moment? Do we conclude that there is therefore no specific, or inherent, objection on the part of Her Majesty's Government to the sale of Harrier jets to China?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I thought that I had stated the position quite clearly. We are now waiting for a proposal. I cannot go further than that. The next move must be made on this, and there must be a move, and I would hope that it is accepted by the House that in principle we believe in supplying equipment to China. I thought I made that clear. We must of course have a clearer idea of the Chinese requirement, and this is why we must have talks and discussions. All I am saying to noble Lords who have expressed their doubts is that it is the intention of the British Government to see that trade develops with China, and inevitably a part of that trade will be defence material.

MILE END GARDENS (PORTSMOUTH) BILL [H.L.]
Report from Her Majesty's Attorney General received, and ordered to lie on the Table.
CIVIL AVIATION BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
  FIRES AT FACTORY FARMS
  FIRES AT FACTORY FARMS
  REPORT ON THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED
  REPORT ON THE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED
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  CHILD BENEFITS
  BELGRADE CONFERENCE: NON-ALIGNED STATES
  BELGRADE CONFERENCE: NON-ALIGNED STATES
  ETHIOPIA: ALLEGED FOREIGN INTERVENTIONS
  ETHIOPIA: ALLEGED FOREIGN INTERVENTIONS