Sitting of 2 February 1978

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS

  ROYAL ASSENT
  Mr. Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Measures passed under the provisions of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919:

  1. Dioceses Measure 1978

  2. Parochial Registers and Records Measure 1978

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Parliamentary Constituencies (Boundaries)
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects the Parliamentary Boundary Commission to publish all its first proposals for altered parliamentary seats in England; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John): It seems likely that the English Commission will publish the last of its provisional recommendations in the course of 1979. The final recommendations will be published together when all the reviews in England are complete.
    Mr. Madel: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Boundary Commission should make two alterations to the way in which it works? First, boundaries should be altered on the basis of the planned rise in population rather than the size of the electoral register, which is often two or three years out of date, and,
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    secondly, we should change boundaries when English constituencies shoot above 70,000 electors rather than wait for 10 years, when the whole thing is done en bloc. Is he aware that in eastern England there are constituencies with well over 70,000 or 80,000 electors, while in Greater London there are some constituencies with well under 50,000 electors? Will he—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. May I appeal to the hon. Member not to make out a case, but to ask a question?
    Mr. Madel: Will the Minister of State agree to instruct the Commission to do these two things?
    Mr. John: If I may make a brief intervention in that speech—boundaries cannot be changed in a higgledy-piggledy way and Ministers have no power to instruct the Commission. On the hon. Gentleman's suggestion about the projected rise in population, it might be dangerous to act in the way that he suggests, because, on the evidence that I have seen from reports in the local government sector, projected rises in population up to between 1976 and 1980 have been erroneous in a number of cases.
    Sir David Renton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the electorate of Huntingdonshire has increased from 39,000 to 93,000 since I became its Member? What is he going to do about it? Is he aware that the local government reorganisation affecting Cambridgeshire and neighbouring counties has for a long time called for a Parliamentary Boundary Commission?
    Mr. John: The Commission is in existence and is carrying out county reviews. As to the other matter about which the right hon, and learned Gentleman is concerned, he seems, single-handed, to have increased the population in his constituency. He asks what I am going to do about it. All I can say is that I am not a surgeon.

    Drugs and Drink Offences
    Mr. Hoosonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons were convicted in England and Wales of drug offences and drink offences, respectively, for the last year for which complete figures are available.
    Mr. John: The latest figures available are for 1976. In that year, 11,220 people were convicted of drugs offences and 111,884 of offences against the intoxicating liquor laws. In addition, 50,238 people were convicted of road traffic offences involving either drink or drugs.
    Mr. Hooson: Do not those figures and the figures given to me by the Chairman of the National Council for Alcoholism indicate that alcoholism and intoxication are now greater problems in this country than are drugs? What does the Home Office intend to do about it?
    Mr. John: The figures for simple drunkenness fell by a small amount. The increase was in drunkenness with aggravation—drunk and disorderly cases. That is a problem that we shall study, in common with other crimes of violence.
    Mr. Lipton: How many cases involved the use of cannabis, which is a non-criminal offence in many parts of the world?
    Mr. John: I am unable to say specifically how many cannabis offences are included in the statistics. My hon. Friend said that the use of cannabis was not a crime in many countries, but it is still a crime in most countries, and the decriminalisation spoken of in the United States is not intended not to make it a crime.
    Sir Bernard Braine: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that a breakdown of the figures would show that the toll of death and injury on the roads due to alcohol abuse is rising, especially among the young? Is he aware that road accidents account for half of all male deaths between the ages of 15 and 24, and that the largest factor in all those cases is alcohol? Does he agree, therefore, that the delay in implementing the sensible proposals of the Blennerhasset Committee is costing lives?
    Mr. John: The statistics show the link between drinking and driving and how dangerous it is to drive after having drunk. But the Blennerhasset Report is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport.

    Criminal Appeals
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will
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    introduce measures to ensure that no appeals against conviction result in harsher sentences being issued in some courts.
    Mr. John: This is, in effect, the position with appeals to the Court of Appeal. An appeal to the Crown Court, however, is different. It is a complete rehearing of the case, and the appropriate sentence in an individual case is, within the limits prescribed by law, a matter to be decided by the court. We have no proposal to amend the law in this respect.
    Mr. Skinner: Surely it is a scandal that this can happen, as in the case of Christopher Roys, the Bradford student who appealed against a fine imposed by a magistrates' court for supposedly obobstructing the police at Grunwick and was then put in gaol. If it does not apply to certain other courts, especially those used by people who have "brass" and start off at a different level, surely the system is wrong? Is it not being used as a deterrent against other people who might have been charged arising out of matters at Grunwick? Should not this anomaly be removed?
    Mr. John: There are a number of misconceptions in my hon. Friend's supplementary question. First, the Court of Appeal is not a rich man's alternative route to appeal. The Court of Appeal deals with cases on the basis of facts already heard. An appeal to the Crown Court from a magistrates' court, which is the sole method of appeal from magistrates' courts, is by way of a rehearing. All the facts are canvassed again and all the evidence is reheard, so that it is, in effect, a new trial. All I would say is that the court that retries the case should have powers, within the limits prescribed for the offence, to impose an appropriate sentence.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is it not the case that the decision by a past Parliament to remove from the Court of Appeal the power to increase a sentence has resulted in far too many people appealing on cases without merit, with the result that people who have genuine merit in their appeals have to wait far too long before they are heard?
    Mr. John: Who can judge which case is without merit? That is a purely subjective judgment. All I can say, as

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    someone who looks at wrongful conviction cases, is that it seems to me that everyone who is convicted believes that he ought to have been successful in his appeal.
    Mr. George Rodgers: Will my hon. Friend undertake to have a special look at the case mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), which has caused a great deal of disturbance? The youngster who has been sentenced to gaol could have his whole life and career affected by this extraordinary turn of events, which reaches far beyond the immediate situation at Grunwick. Will my hon. Friend give that undertaking?
    Mr. John: As I have said, Ministers do not interfere with what is a matter for judicial decision alone. Therefore. I shall not comment upon an individual case. But I have made it quite clear that there is no proposal to give the Court of Appeal powers to increase a sentence.
    Mr. Hooson: Does the Minister of State agree that it is contrary to the tradition of English law and English legal practice to increase sentences when there is an appeal against conviction, because there is a need for certainty in those matters? As the hon. Gentleman knows, judges tend to vary in their views on certain cases. A man should not risk different sentences before two different tribunals.
    Mr. John: What the hon. and learned Gentleman has said would be more accurate if the matter did not proceed by way of a new trial. What one has in the Crown Court is an appeal that is a complete rehearing of the case.

    Juvenile Crime
    Mr. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement on the rise in juvenile crime.
    Mr. John: The Government share the concern expressed in many quarters about the level and seriousness of juvenile crime; but in fact in 1975 there was a 5 per cent. decrease in the number of juveniles found guilty of or cautioned for indictable offences per 100,000 of the population in the age group, followed by a 4 per cent. decrease in 1976.
    Mr. Townsend: Does the Minister not fel that in this sphere magistrates should have rather more say and social workers rather less? If we had more bobbies on the beat, would not that be a good deterrent? If so, will he bear in mind that in London we are to have fewer?
    Mr. John: The cause of juvenile crime is a more subtle and complicated question than can be answered by a mere cry that the magistrates should have more powers. After all, there is no evidence that a more restrictive environment checks juvenile crime.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: We should be pleased to note the slight reduction in the last two years. Will my hon. Friend encourage magistrates to use the community service orders that have worked successfully where they have been applied by the courts? Does he agree that the community service order is a better alternative than remanding juvenile delinquents to borstal or to other forms of detention?
    Mr. John: I always encourage the use of non-custodial dispositions where they seem appropriate.
    Mr. Sims: Has the hon. Gentleman seen British Rail's recent report on vandalism and the reference to the extent of vandalism by children of 7, 8 and 9 years of age? Does he not think that there is room for a change in our law, which prevents youngsters of those ages from being brought before the courts unless they are found to have deprived home backgrounds?
    Mr. John: The age of criminal responsibility is 10 years. It is already lower than in most Continental countries. I do not think that it would be the wish of the House to reduce it further.
    Mr. David Howell: The Minister talks about a "mere cry" that the magistrates should have more power. Is he treating this matter correctly? Is he not aware of the growing concern that magistrates lack the ability to imprison young offenders where appropriate? Is he prepared to consider changes in the law to meet this genuine and growing concern?
    Mr. John: The hon. Gentleman should use his words correctly. There is no power to imprison juveniles at all. What

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    we are talking about is a small minority of hard-core juveniles. I favour non-custodial rather than custodial dispositions, so that those who can be turned away from a life of crime by constructive means at that age may be so turned away.

    Birching (Isle of Man)
    Mr. Clemitsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the continued use of birching as a punishment in the Isle of Man.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Pending the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights, in a current case, this remains a domestic matter for consideration by the Isle of Man Government.
    Mr. Clemitson: If the Isle of Man Government will not take action on this practice, will my right hon. Friend initiate action in the House?
    Mr. Rees: It would be better to wait and see what happens. The matter will eventually come back to me to consider. I feel strongly about corporal punishment, but wider issues are involved.
    Mr. Powell: Is not the effect of the United Kingdom's adherence to the European Convention on Human Rights to alter the constitutional relationship between the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man in respect of the internal affairs of the Isle of Man?
    Mr. Rees: I do not think, with respect to the right hon. Gentleman, that this case alters our relationship. At the end of the day that relationship is a convention between ourselves and the Isle of Man. Our relationship is governed, if that is the right word, by convention. What we decide at the end of the day is our own business.
    Mr. Norman Atkinson: Will my right hon. Friend say whether he personally is opposed to this barbaric business or agrees with it?
    Mr. Rees: I said at the beginning that, with my responsibilities in this country, I am against it.
    Mr. Marten: Does the Secretary of State agree that the people of the Isle of Man know best how to deal with this problem and that they have been very
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    successful in maintaining law and order there? Should we not, therefore, leave the decision to them?
    Mr. Rees: I do not want to be drawn. I just make the obvious remark that one could take a small area of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of a size comparable to that of the Isle of Man and find that the amount of crime in that area in which there is no corporal punishment is less than that in the Isle of Man. This subject is much better left until the Court reports.

    Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis
    Mr. Simsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next expects to meet the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis.
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how often he met the Metropolitan Police Commissioner in 1977.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: I met the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis on 19 occasions during 1977. I last met him yesterday and have no immediate plans for a further meeting.
    Mr. Sims: Did the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the Commissioner the present strength of the Metropolitan Police, which is numerically no higher than it was 50 years ago and is smaller as a proportion of the national police force? Will he confirm that at present there is a net outflow from the Metropolitan Police, whilst other forces are having less difficulty in obtaining recruits? Does not this indicate that there is an urgent need for a special approach to recruiting to the Metropolitan Police?
    Mr. Rees: The Edmund-Davies Committee is meeting and discussing a wide variety of matters, and I imagine that that is one of them. I think that it would be better to wait and see what the committee suggests. I simply observe that there are differences of view between the forces in the provinces and the Metropolitan forces on this matter. Therefore, I would rather wait until I receive the report. Then we can look at the wider issues.
    Mr. Christopher Price: On how many of those occasions in 1977 and this year did my right hon. Friend discuss the National Front march in Lewisham and

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    its aftermath? Does he agree, in retrospect, that the Commissioner made an error of judgment in not applying to have that march banned? Has my right hon. Friend completed his review of the legal position? Can he announce any future legislation to tighten up the Public Order Act?
    Mr. Rees: I begin with the Public Order Act and the wider aspects resulting from its amendment by the Race Relations Act. I have talked to the chief officers concerned, and it is emerging that there could be some tightening up, if that is the right expression. My own view is that it would not make much difference to the situation, if one is simply considering the Public Order Act. I have discussed the matter with the Commissioner at my regular meetings with him, and on a much more day-to-day basis my Department discusses these matters with Scotland Yard.
    My view is that if the Commissioner had decided to ban the march at Lewisham he would have been saying, in effect, that all marches in the Metropolitan area would have to be banned. The question is whether law and order can be maintained, and if the answer is "No" the march, whatever it was, would have to be banned every time that was the answer.
    Mr. Dykes: When the Home Secretary next meets Commissioner McNee will he discuss with him the official policy, which is to allow the local Press to have access to police logs of reported crimes in local stations so that, for example, automatic Press publicity can be given to burglaries and other such crimes without consulting the people affected?
    Mr. Rees: I shall look into that. It had not been brought to my notice.
    Mr. Corbett: Will my right hon. Friend draw the Commissioner's attention to the Fisher Report on the Confait case and the comments in the report that some of the rules and directions in the Judges' Rules did not seem to be known by police officers? Will he encourage the Commissioner to ensure that every constable in the Metropolitan force is aware of those rules and directions?
    Mr. Rees: I shall certainly do that. There is a later Question on which the matter more specifically arises. The Com
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    missioner has read the report and is taking steps accordingly.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I agree with him when he says that there are great dangers in banning marches by one organisation and not regarding what many other organisations may do at the same time? Provocation in these matters is very dangerous, but the right to march must be preserved, and the law should be preserved. That is the job of the Metropolitan Commissioner.
    Mr. Rees: That is so, but the law was drawn up in 1936, as a result of the then Fascist marches—the Mosley marches in the East End of London—and it follows that there must be occasions on which Parliament would think it right to ban a march. Otherwise, there is no point in having the law. Marches have been banned on a number of occasions. There is a difficult judgment to make in all this. I am saying that within the Metropolitan area a judgment on one march, simply on the basis of the preservation of law and order, would have ramifications for all marches. The Commissioner must take that into account in making his recommendation to me.

    Mentally Disturbed Offenders
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans for the non-custodial treatment of mentally disturbed persons at present in prison owing to the lack of alternative facilities.
    Mr. John: I do not think that it would be appropriate to provide for the treatment, in a non-custodial setting, of mentally disordered offenders whom the courts have decided to sentence to imprisonment rather than, for example, place on probation. But we are concerned about the number of mentally disordered people in prison, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services are considering what can be done to improve the situation.
    Miss Fookes: As it costs at least £78 a week to keep each prisoner, would not the money be better spent on setting up suitable establishments, and quickly?
    Mr. John: That is one of the simplistic accounting procedures that appeal to

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    me, as I have a poor grasp of arithmetic, but the fact is that unless we make enough room in a prison to close it down, we effect no saving on the prison budget, whilst increasing public expenditure elsewhere. I am interested to note that the hon. Lady is making yet another special case for increasing public expenditure whilst advocating decreasing public expenditure in general.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is my hon. Friend aware that the situation in British prisons is becoming extremely dangerous as a result of the very high incidence of mentally disordered people who should be in hospital rather than in prison, but who cannot be in hospital because the judges cannot send them to Rampton and Broadmoor, as those establishments are too full? Is it not time that we acted on the Butler Report, with the full consent of the House, and told the Treasury that money should be available for some kind of establishment where such people can be kept safely but out of the normal mental hospital?
    Mr. John: No precise estimate of the numbers involved can be given, but in the opinion of prison medical officers there are hundreds of such prisoners. As for the Butler Report, and particularly the question of secure units, the Government are very concerned about the slow progress being made, but for once that cannot be laid at the Treasury's door.
    Mr. Nelson: Is the Minister aware that in Brixton Prison, for example, there are numerous mentally disturbed prisoners for whom the appropriate treatment is most certainly not in Her Majesty's Prisons? Is not the resistance of certain trade unions and the Health Service to providing adequate facilities for such prisoners the real restraint on dealing with them properly?
    Mr. John: I would make two points. First, Brixton is a remand prison, and therefore one would expect dispositions about mental health to be made at the trial. Secondly, problems arise on the question whether hospitals have the appropriate facilities and whether the offenders are treatable. There are some cases of mental disturbance which are not treatable in the present state of modern science. It is that rather than blind trade union resistance, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, that causes the problem.

    Hooliganism and Vandalism
    Mr. Matesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that magistrates' courts have adequate facilities at their disposal to enable them to deal with offences involving hooliganism and vandalism.
    Mr. John: Yes, Sir. The courts have a wide range of sentencing options available to them in such cases.
    Mr. Mates: Is the Minister aware that there is growing dissatisfaction among magistrates at the lack of options open to them in dealing with these types of offender? Attendance centres have been set up. Why are there about 60 for those under 17 and only two for those between 17 and 21, in view of the hon. Gentleman's desire to encourage non-custodial options? Will he do something urgently to put that matter right and provide more of these cheap and effective means of dealing non-custodially with hooligans and vandals?
    Mr. John: Junior attendance centres number 61. One more has recently been opened, and further centres are to be opened, The problem about senior attendance centres is that the advisory council that looked into the matter thought that it was an inappropriate type of disposition for people of that age, and the Government agree. Nevertheless, as magistrates believe that there is some value in the existing tool, I have deferred the closure of those attendance centres. As for other methods of non-custodial disposition, we are pressing on quickly with the extension of community service orders.
    Mr. Lipton: Is it not the case that although magistrates have adequate facilities at their disposal they are not making use of those facilities and in many cases are imposing inadequate sentences?
    Mr. John: As my hon. Friend will know, decisions in individual cases are for the magistrates. However, the Court of Appeal gave some guidance last week about the seriousness with which it views this category of case. I hope that hon. Members will study that guidance.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that magistrates

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    receive sufficient feedback on the effect of the sentences that they impose on juveniles who are found guilty of crimes, or are they merely left to impose various sentences from within the short range at their disposal with not the slightest idea which are the most effective in which circumstances?
    Mr. John: The problem in any penal policy is to monitor and assess accurately the effectiveness of any particular disposition. I have no doubt that in many cases magistrates suffer from an absence of information on their disposition. One of the measures is the incidence of re-offence.
    Mr. David Howell: Will the Minister of State tell us why senior attendance centres are not appropriate?
    Mr. John: I advise the hon. Gentleman to read the advisory council report for more detail. The sort of regime that is successful for young people does not have an effect at the senior range. What is appropriate for juniors would be wholly inappropriate for seniors.

    Violent Crimes
    Mr. MacKayasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he is taking to combat the increase in crimes of violence committed in the cities of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: I have already announced increased expenditure on law and order services to support the police with whom rests the immediate responsibility for preventing and detecting crime. The Government will continue to ensure that adequate powers are available to the courts.
    Mr. MacKay: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most important deterrents is detection? Further, does he agree that the morale of the police at present, especially because of their pay, has meant that they are disastrously undermanned, with the result that the citizens of many cities, including Birmingham, fear to walk the streets at night and are not being adequately protected by us?
    Mr. Rees: I am sure that detection is a major factor. I advise the hon. Gentleman—I have done so since I have been Home Secretary—to read around on the
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    subject. It is not only a matter of detection. It is not only a matter of the penalties that are provided. For example, I found that in Soviet Russia there is far less crime than in America. That did not turn me into a Communist, or make me a Friedman capitalist, but it made me realise that there is more to this subject than we sometimes think.
    I hope that something will be done about police pay, but I also hope that the hon. Gentleman will not run away with the idea that if the police receive more pay large numbers of policemen will appear on the streets and the problems with which he is concerned will disappear. I do not think that that will happen.
    Mr. Heffer: Will my right hon. Friend tell me whether the Merseyside police force is under strength, by how much it is under strength, and what activities are being undertaken to bring it up to strength?
    Mr. Rees: I do not have the Merseyside figures with me. I can say that police forces are under strength. Much depends on what is meant by "establishment" Pay is undoubtedly a factor in recruitment. In some parts of the country it is extremely difficult to recruit whatever remuneration is offered. I hope that we shall consider these matters more widely in the discussions that will take place in the next couple of years about the role of the police and recruitment. People are not rushing to join the police.
    Mr. Cope: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that it was wise of his predecessor to reduce from eight weeks to six weeks the time normally spent by offenders in detention centres when they are in the appropriate age bracket?
    Mr. Rees: That is a judgment on the period of a fortnight. In the discussions that have taken place on a wider front, I see no reason to believe that this decision was a mistake. The error that we all make—I put myself in this category—is to try to find a single solution to the problem. We shall never do so. There is a collection of answers, which goes across a wide spectrum.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: In considering the causes, will my right hon. Friend turn to the effect that television is having on

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    young people, especially where, night after night, we are getting a surfeit of violence in the programmes?
    Mr. Rees: One of my responsibilities, as my hon. Friend knows, lies with television and broadcasting. There have been a number of interesting reports. However, the answers that they offer are conflicting. There is one school of thought that takes the view that violence shown on television gets it out of one's system. The other school of thought believes that one learns from it. I do not know the answer. When I manage to watch television in the evening, my feeling is that an enormous amount of violence takes place, and I feel that that must be a factor.
    Mr. Whitelaw: The right hon. Gentleman said that an increase in police pay would not automatically result in more police on the beat. That may be true, but is not the other side of the case equally dangerous and true, namely, that a lack of increase in pay is resulting in fewer police on the beat all the time? When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to get the report of Lord Edmund-Davies's Committee?
    Mr. Rees: I cannot say when I shall get it, but I want a report that will stand the test of time. The 1961 Report did that. My predecessor has been referred to. In the statutory policy of a couple of years ago an arrangement was specially made with the police that they received a 30 per cent. pay increase when others had far less. My predecessor argued to the Cabinet that that was vital to the police, and he was right, but that did not solve the problem of law and order. All that I am arguing is that I do not think that it will do so next time, either.

    Race Relations
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he proposes to seek to amend the race relations legislation in the light of the speech of Lord Scarman to the Minority Rights Group on the temporary nature of the Race Relations Act.
    Mr. John: No, Sir.
    Mr. McCrindle: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of us read his weekend speech with the greatest interest, especi
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    ally the part that stated that we cannot prosecute or legislate racialism out of existence? In these circumstances, would it not be wise for the Government to keep an eye on the continuing effectiveness of the Race Relations Acts and to ensure that they are a help rather than a hindrance to good race relations?
    Mr. John: If the hon. Gentleman had read my full speech—I do not blame him for not doing so, as the extracts that appear are necessarily brief—he would realise that I do not find any substitute for a good Race Relations Act to secure equality of treatment. In so far as it is necessary to have an Act—I believe that it is, to secure equality of treatment for the minority communities—I am determined to make the Act as effective as possible.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is it not odd that a distinguished judge of Lord Scarman's stature should have made the mistake of thinking that appropriate sections of the Race Relations Act had anything to do with positive discrimination, in the American sense? All that they do is allow the Government to provide for special need rather than give any act of discrimination to anybody.
    Mr. John: Nothing in the Race Relations Act provides for positive discrimination in the sense that my hon. Friend mentions. I agree that it allows for special treatment to fulfil special need, and I believe that that is vital.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many people believe, in the light of experience, that race relations legislation is harmful to human relations and contrary to British traditions of fair play, and that the sooner it is repealed the better?
    Mr. John: I believe that it is not race relations legislation that is causing an upset in relations but irresponsible statements, for electoral gain, that are made from time to time without any regard to the facts.
    Mr. John Mendelson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle) about legislating racialism out of existence was short-sighted—as if anyone were to ask "Can you legislate dishonesty out of

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    existence?" That has never been a basis for not having legislation, for example, against theft or robbery with violence. Does my hon. Friend further agree that what is required is not so much amending legislation but the keen conviction of every judge in court that he will not act against the law but will implement it? If a judge can interpret "One down and a million to go" as not an incitement to violence, are we not ready to conclude that that judge will never interpret anything as incitement to violence?
    Mr. John: Race relations legislation goes a great deal wider than the one section that deals with criminal incitement. I am concerned with the whole of race relations legislation. The context in which I said that we could not legislate racialism out of existence was that race relations legislation is necessary but must be operated with determination and commitment by all sections of the community. I only wish that there were a little more on the Opposition Benches.

    Firemen (Strike)
    Mr. George Rodgersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is yet in a position to assess the overall cost of the recent strike action by the Fire Brigades Union.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summerskill): No, Sir. It will be some time before the extra costs arising from the provision of Service assistance to fire authorities can be fully assessed.
    Mr. Rodgers: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the cost—obviously substantial—will demonstrate the value of the fire service to the community? Is it not disgraceful that the Conservative leader of the Norfolk County Council, addressing the County Council Association, should have spoken in a hostile and offensive fashion about the negotiations and the agreement that has been reached? Would it be as well for the Home Department to advise local authorities which are threatening to cut down on fire services that that would be a dangerous and hazardous procedure?
    Dr. Summerskill: It would be premature for me to attempt to estimate the total cost of the burden that will fall
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    on fire authorities. They will have to pay Ministry of Defence costs, which do not include the pay of Service men. All costs, apart from pay, will have to be included. At this stage I cannot say what that will mean.
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: The Minister referred to Ministry of Defence costs. Were there not in fact savings to the Government by employing under-paid troops to do the firemen's work, with no overtime pay for it?
    Dr. Summerskill: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has posed a completely different question. I am sure that everyone appreciates the work done by the troops during the firemen's dispute. I cannot estimate the cost.
    Mr. Skinner: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Tory-controlled Derbyshire County Council decided over the weekend to cut fire cover for all household hereditaments from two pumps to one pump at every fire? Should not the Home Department intervene to alert not only Derbyshire County Council ratepayers but, more importantly, the bigoted Tory-controlled council which is proposing to act in such a dilatory fashion?
    Dr. Summerskill: Certain standards are set by the Home Department to which fire authorities must adhere. It is for each fire authority to conform to those standards in the best way that it can.

    Chief Inspector of Constabulary
    Mr. Bowdenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next intends to meet Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: I meet Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary frequently but have no immediate arrangement to do so.
    Mr. Bowden: Is it not a scandal that many of my elderly constituents should be genuinely afraid to go out at night? Does the Home Secretary agree—[Interruption.] This is not a laughing matter. Does the Home Secretary agree that the only way to check violence on the streets is to increase the numbers of policemen on beat patrol?
    Mr. Rees: The Labour Government are, in real terms, spending £250 million

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    more than the Conservative Administration spent. There is another £50 million in the pipeline now. There are now 7,474 more policemen than under the Conservative Administration. I have here a recruitment figure for 1976 of about 1,000 more for the Metropolitan Police. We are doing very well, and very much better than the Conservative Government did.
    Sir Bernard Braine: Nevertheless, will the Home Secretary discuss with the Chief Inspector of Constabulary the deep anxieties of every senior police officer in the land not merely at the decline in the numbers of male recruits to the force and the difficulty of retaining experienced police officers but at the filling up of establishments with women police officers who, though admirable and efficient in every other way, are a cause of anxiety when they have to be sent out on patrol in high-risk areas?
    Mr. Rees: I note the hon. Gentleman's feeling that women have their place in the home.
    Sir Bernard Braine: Nonsense.
    Mr. Rees: There are more policewomen now. It is idle to pretend that there are not problems in certain areas. I discussed this matter yesterday with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. We need to wait and see the result of Lord Edmund-Davies's Committee. I take full account of the proper needs of law and order. There are certain jobs that women cannot do and we would be foolish to ignore that fact, but in the modern world women who can do the jobs that men do ought to be able to get those jobs irrespective of their sex.
    Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have asked for and got extra police on patrol in Walton, but at the same time constituents have complained that their children have been harassed because of those extra police? Will he try to explain to Conservative Members that it is not a simple matter to deal with this situation?
    Mr. Rees: I agree that it is not a simple matter to deal with this situation.
    Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Will the Home Secretary think again about the extraordinarily complacent statement that he made about things getting better?
    Mr. Ashton: Declare your interest.
    Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Is it not a fact—
    Hon. Members: Declare your interest.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not necessary for an hon. Member to declare an interest every Question Time when it has already been declared.
    Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I declare and am proud to proclaim my interest in this matter. Will the Home Secretary think again about the extraordinarily complacent statement that he made, namely, that matters of law and order are getting better? Does he not recognise that there is vastly more crime and violence and that considerably more policemen are leaving the service? There is a national problem. Will he stop being complacent, and try to deal with it?
    Mr. Rees: The hon. Gentleman overdoes what he says for his own reasons. I was answering a question about recruitment, and I gave the figures. The hon. Gentleman has a vested interest in making political capital out of police pay.
    Later—
    Mr. Tapsell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During Question Time I think I heard you say that it was the convention in the House not to declare an interest during Question Time if it had been declared previously. I may be quite wrong, but it has always been my impression that the convention was not to declare an interest during Question Time. The addition of the words "if it has been declared before" seems very important. Perhaps now or on a subsequent occasion you could give us your guidance as to the exact position.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is quite correct in his interpretation.

    CBI
    Mr. Nobleasked the Prime Minister when he last met the CBI.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): I met representatives of the CBI when I took the chair at a meeting of the NEDC yesterday. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.
    Mr. Noble: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many employers, trade

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    unionists and Labour Members are pleased with his firm stance, so far, on the temporary employment subsidy? In view of the intransigence of the European Commission on this issue and its wish to see TES replaced, for certain sensitive industries, by a less acceptable scheme, does he agree that we need a high-level political initiative to ensure that the temporary employment subsidy remains and is passed on to other workers in sensitive industries in the rest of the Community?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful for the way in which my hon. Friend pursues this important matter. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment made a considered statement on the matter in the debate on Monday. As for future negotiations, I shall consider with my right hon. Friend whether the matter should be raised to a political level, but that time has not yet arrived. Our major objective is to preserve these jobs.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Has the Prime Minister discussed with the CBI or with the NEDC how many jobs are threatened by his blacklist policy, or does he still maintain that it is a figment of the imagination?
    The Prime Minister: This matter was not raised by representatives of the CBI when I met them yesterday, and I did not raise it. In view of the small number of companies that have been referred to in the newspapers, out of the 600,000 companies that are active, it was probably thought not worth while to discuss it at that point.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Prime Minister admits that there is a black list. What is the authority for that black list, in view of the fact that there is a non-statutory incomes policy?
    The Prime Minister: I did not admit that there was a black list. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The right hon. Lady puts words into my mouth. All that is completely and fully known is that there is a group of firms to which this matter has been put. Representatives of the Conservative Front Bench are apparently engaged in a dispute with the Department of Trade about that matter.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The Prime Minister has given his usual slippery reply. [Inter
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    ruption.] Is there or is there not a black list, and how many firms are on it?
    The Prime Minister: I did not discuss this matter with the CBI. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] If the right hon. Lady wants an answer to that question, there is a perfectly good way of getting it. She can table a Question to the Secretary of State for Trade or, if she would not be satisfied with a reply from him, there is the usual convention of putting a specific Question to me by notice. I shall then be very happy to give her any figures that exist on this matter.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Has my right hon. Friend yet discussed with the CBI the recent pamphlet entitled "Britain means Business", which indicates that the Confederation wants substantial cuts in public expenditure amounting to 38 per cent. of GDP by 1981–1982, including massive reductions in housing and transport subsidies? Will he say what that would mean in increased rents and fares, not forgetting increased employment?
    The Prime Minister: I would not like to give figures offhand, without preparation, but I notice that there has been this demand for a reduction in the standard rate of tax. If the Opposition policy of abolishing rates were carried out, we would find not a reduction in the rate of tax but a substantial increase.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Mr. Robinsonasked the Prime Minister if he will list his public engagements for 2nd February.
  The Prime Minister: This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. I also attended a memorial service for Senator Hubert Humphrey. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.
  Mr. Robinson: Nevertheless, will my right hon. Friend find time to have a short word with Mr. Michael Edwardes, Chairman of British Leyland, and extend a warm welcome to his new organisational proposals and the sense of leadership which he has given to the company? Will he also tell Mr. Edwardes that the real test of his leadership and the basis

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  on which he can ask this House for support will be his ability to obtain and sustain the co-operation of the work force?
  The Prime Minister: I hope that everybody was encouraged by yesterday's reports of the meeting, in which Mr. Edwardes seemed to have gained an overwhelming amount of support. What is now needed, as my hon. Friend says, is a sustained and united effort to ensure that the feeling that was engendered yesterday is not allowed to fall away. I believe that Mr. Edwardes is fully aware of the necessity to carry the work force with him.
  Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the Prime Minister take time to have discussions with his Cabinet colleagues to redress the subversion of the Scotland Bill that took place last week, the necessity for which provision is essential for the Bill and therefore the existence of the Government? Is he aware that the new 40 per cent. requirement in the referenda shows that Scotland voted against the Common Market. Therefore, what arrangements will he make to take us out?
  The Prime Minister: I shall consider all these matters, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman will probably want to wait until Report, when the whole issue can he debated again.
  Mr. Fitt: Will the Prime Minister take the opportunity some time today to comment on the statement made yesterday by the Shadow spokesman for Northern Ireland which has led to the breakdown in the bipartisan approach which has existed for many years? Is it still the Government's intention, irrespective of the conclusions that may be reached by the Conservative Opposition, to continue to pursue a just and acceptable political institution in Northern Ireland which will improve the whole community?
  The Prime Minister: I have noticed recently that there are some issues in which the Opposition seem desirous of ending what should be a national approach to some of these matters. In the case of Northern Ireland. I hope that a national approach can be sustained and maintained as it has during the last seven years. What seems to me to be important is that in any arrangements for a future
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  administration or Government of Northern Ireland all communities should have a feeling of fully sharing in that administration or Government, otherwise we shall be back to the situation that existed before 1970.
  Mr. Dykes: Will the Prime Minister come back to the previous issue and to the totally unauthorised policy of having a black list of firms in respect of pay policy? Will he answer the following questions? How many firms have been blacklisted? What is the Department of Employment's policy on this matter? Finally, how many more firms will be blacklisted, and when will the Government issue a clear statement on the subject?
  The Prime Minister: There is a regular Question Time directed at my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade, and I suggest that these Questions should be tabled in detail for him to answer. I did not discuss this matter with the CBI in relation to the previous Question. It is not on the list of my public engagements for today, and I have not come here with any information on this matter.
  There is no secret about this issue. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, if there is a secret, it seems to be a damned badly kept one. When I listen to reports on the radio of the unholy alliance between Lord Aldinaton and Mr. Clive Jenkins, I begin to think that the Government must be right on some of these issues.
  Mr. McCrindleasked the Prime Minister if he will state his public engagements for 2nd February.
  The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Robinson).
  Mr. McCrindle: If I may return to the question to which my hon. Friends have paid attention, if a black list were to exist, what would be the legal basis for its continuation? Secondly, will the Prime Minister say why the Sun Alliance and London Insurance Group should not take a perfectly reasonable management decision to improve the basis of its employees' pensions?
  The Prime Minister: Any question that begins with the words "Were a black list

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  to exist" is clearly hypothetical. Therefore, I am not called upon to reply to it.
  As for the Sun Alliance, I understand that it is proposing to challenge the secret report which has apparently been made and which is so well known to at least two of the directors of that company who sit in this House. Therefore, I have a feeling that any misdeeds that are likely to come out will be quickly made known to the Shadow Cabinet through the directorship of the right hon. Gentleman who sits on the Sun Alliance board.
  Mr. Kinnock: On the subject of both the bipartisan approach and a black list, will my right hon. Friend undertake consultations with the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition to discuss why she appears to be preventing any remnants of progressive opinion in her party from sitting on the all-party joint committee against racialism? This is a matter of blacklisting that is of some concern to people in this country.
  The Prime Minister: I can only admire my hon. Friend's ingenuity, which is now called parallel thinking, but I have no ministerial responsibility for any of the Shadow appointments made by the right hon. Lady.
  Mr. Stanbrook: On the question of a black list, is not the truth of the matter that the Prime Miinster knows that sanctions against these firms are quite unlawful and that it only requires a firm with the courage to take the Government to court to bring the whole ramshackle edifice down in ruins?
  The Prime Minister: There cannot be much of an edifice when we consider the handful of firms that are involved out of a total of 600,000 active companies. I do not want to engage in a discussion on semantics involving the question whether a list is black, but on the issue itself I hope that the Opposition and those who may be considering taking the Government to the law on this matter will also consider the impact if wages embark on a runaway race once again, with the resulting inflation, which we have now so painfully overcome. Perhaps those Conservative Members will consider that aspect of the matter, because I assure them that that is what the public are concerned about.
  Mr. Norman Atkinson: In regard to that answer, however, and to the Prime Minister's previous answer with regard to British Leyland, is my right hon. Friend aware that part of the Edwardes plan involves the synchronisation of wage bargaining, much of which cannot be enacted until after 31st July this year? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend appeal to his colleagues in the Cabinet to desist from their repetitive comments about the need for a wage policy after 31st July which, of necessity, must interfere with the Edwardes plan of free bargaining for Leyland, which is now to be concluded?
  The Prime Minister: I am aware that many hon. Members dislike any process of discussing wages and their future. Let me make it abundantly clear to the House and to the people of this country that in the manner in which our industrial society is now composed and conducted it is impossible to discuss any future economic progress in this country without discussing—
  Mr. Ridley: Come off it. Rubbish.
  The Prime Minister:—what role wages and incomes are to play.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mrs. Thatcher: May I ask the Lord President to state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 6TH FEBRUARY.—Private Members' motions until 7 o'clock. Afterwards, resumed debate on the motion on House of Commons (Sound Broadcasting).
Motion on the Third Report of the Committee of Privileges in Session 1976–77.
TUESDAY 7TH FEBRUARY.—Supply [6th Allotted Day]: there will be a debate on the Government's industrial strategy, on an Opposition motion.
Remaining stages of the Shipbuilding (Redundancy Payments) Bill.

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WEDNESDAY 8TH FEBRUARY.—consideration in Committee of the European Assembly Elections Bill.
THURSDAY 9TH FEBRUARY.—Second Reading of the Inner Urban Areas Bill.
Motion relating to the Medicines (Exemptions from Restrictions on the Retail Sale of Veterinary Drugs) Order.
FRIDAY 10TH FEBRUARY.—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 13TH FEBRUARY.—Supply [7th Allotted Day]: subject for debate to be announced.
Mrs. Thatcher: I wish to put two points to the Lord President. First, we thank him for moving the debate on the Inner Urban Areas Bill from second Order of the Day to first Order of the Day on a different day.
Secondly, the Lord President will have heard the questioning that preceded his statement. Will he arrange for a statement to be made next week by the appropriate Minister about a black list, the authority for it, and what sanctions are being operated against which firms? He should be aware that we simply cannot carry out a pay policy by threat and without reference to this House.
Mr. Foot: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her gratitude for the movement of the debate on the Inner Urban Areas Bill. We sought to accommodate the House on that matter.
On the other matter, I am sure that the House heard the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He suggested to the right hon. Lady that if she put down a Question, that might be the way of proceeding.
Mr. Thorne: Can the Leader of the House assist us in any way in regard to Early-Day Motion No. 220, which raises a very serious matter that some of us feel ought to go to the Committee of Privileges?
[That the matter of the false evidence given to the Select Committee on the Abortion (Amendment) Bill on 7th July 1975 by Michael Litchfield and Susan Kentish relating to alleged transcription of tapes be referred to the Committee of Privileges].
Mr. Foot: I have read the two motions that have been put down by my hon.
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Friends and signed by a large number of hon. Members. I certainly appreciate the sense of outrage that they express in those motions. I am not sure whether a reference to the Committee of Privileges is the best way of dealing with the matter. But if many of my hon. Friends and hon. Members wish to proceed in that way, I shall consider it. However, I cannot give an answer at present, although I appreciate the very strong feelings that must inevitably arise on this matter.
Mr. Beith: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen any indications from the official Opposition that they propose to use one of their forthcoming Supply Days to discuss immigration? We are all waiting to know how the Opposition propose to cut immigration without going back on their previous pledges.
Mr. Foot: I am as eager to learn the answer to that question as the hon. Gentleman, but I have not received any such request so far from the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition.
Mr. Blenkinsop: When shall we have a chance of discussing in the House the very important Court Report on child health and, particularly, the Government's response to that report, which was published only last week?
Mr. Foot: I cannot give my hon. Friend an indication of the time when we may discuss that matter. I shall certainly see whether a statement should be made and what is the timing of the Government's response to the report.
Mrs. Winifred Ewing: When will the Report stage of the Scotland Bill be reached? Can the Lord President give the House any indication of how many of his hon. Friends will join him in repairing the damage that was done by the wrecking Tory amendment last Wednesday, on Burns Night?
Mr. Foot: I cannot give the hon. Lady, as yet, a definite indication when we shall be proceeding with the Report stage. However, I am sure that all these matters can be dealt with when we return to the Bill.
Mr. Abse: May I call the attention of the Leader of the House again to Early-Day Motion No. 115? Is he aware that the alarm that is being expressed by the very fact that 155 Members from all sides

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of the House have now signed this motion will be increased by the fact that the director of British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. has written to me today telling me that a quick decision has been promised by the Government, both to BNFL and to its customers, particularly the Japanese? Will the Leader of the House therefore understand that there would be grave disquiet in the House if there should be a suggestion that we may be gagged on the question of this fateful decision while apparently the Japanese have been promised a speedy decision? Will the Leader of the House bring the responsible Minister to the House next week in order that he may explain his dilemma on the quasi-judicial question and will he give an answer to the House on the demand that there should be a debate?
[That this House calls on the Secretary of State for the Environment to publish the inspector's report on the Windscale Inquiry so that the issues may be debated in this House before any Ministerial decision is taken.]
Mr. Foot: As I have said to my hon. Friend previously, and as I say to all hon. Members who have signed the motion, I certainly appreciate that this is a matter of very great concern indeed. No one denies that or seeks to dismiss it in any sense whatsoever. However, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has had the report for only a week, and I think that he must have time to consider it. How we proceed later is also a matter for consideration, but I take full account of the representations made by my hon. Friend and others.
Mr. David Price: May I ask the Lord President whether the appropriate Minister will make a statement early next week on the consequences of the oil tanker drivers' strike on essential services? Is he aware that in my constituency general practitioners are already finding a petrol shortage and will be in grave danger by Monday of being no longer able to fulfil their duties? Will the Minister also tie it in with the problem facing disabled drivers?
Mr. Foot: Certainly these are serious matters. We shall consider whether a statement should be made and what is the
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best moment for that. I take account of the hon. Gentleman's representations.
Mrs. Castle: Does my right hon. Friend remember that last week he undertook to give the House an opportunity of debating the Seventh Report of the House of Commons Services Committee on the scheme for Members' secretaries, so that it could be brought into operation before the end of the financial year? Is he aware that if this is to be possible, the scheme must be debated this week, I think, or, at the latest, next week? Will he pledge that this will be in next week's business?
Mr. Foot: I fully appreciate the timetable on this matter. I have given undertakings to the House previously, which we are determined to carry out. I fully accept that if we are to carry them out properly, the best time, perhaps, is the beginning of the week after next week. I am certainly hoping that we shall be able to have the debate then.
Sir Bernard Braine: Did the Leader of the House hear earlier today of the anxiety concerning the rising toll of death and injury on the road, especially among the young, due to alcohol abuse? Is he aware that many of us hold that delay in introducing the sensible proposals of the Blennerhassett Committee is actually costing lives? When will he arrange for a statement to be made to the House as to the Government's intentions about legislation?
Mr. Foot: I cannot promise an early statement about legislation on the whole of these matters. I have no doubt that the best way for the subject to be raised further is by Questions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. But I cannot promise that we can have early legislation to cover the whole of these matters, because that would take up a very considerable amount of time.
Mr. Loyden: Has my right hon. Friend given further consideration to my request last week concerning a statement to the House about the position of British Leyland? Has he considered having a discussion on the Floor of the House about the statement on British Leyland which has just been made?
Mr. Foot: My hon. Friend will have heard the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the

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House and is no doubt following the discussions which are continuing at British Leyland. I cannot yet say when will be the best time for a statement to be made to the House, but obviously it is a matter on which the House will wish to express its view in some form or other at some time. I cannot go any further at the moment about any definite date.
Mr. Fell: Does the Leader of the House recall his apology to the House last Thursday about the improper and reprehensible behaviour of three of the junior Ministers? Will he realise that since then there has been a motion—Early-Day Motion No. 215—with 121 signatures to it? Will he therefore find time very shortly for a debate of that motion, or persuade the Prime Minister to have a talk with the three Members concerned and ask them to retrieve the honour of the House by apologising to the House?
[That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Ministers and the other Members, mentioned by the Serjeant at Arms in his letter to Mr. Speaker of 26th January, Official Report, c. 1601, and who remained seated in the 'No' Voting Lobby in order to prevent a vote, to apologise to the House.]
Mr. Foot: I believe and certainly hope that the vast majority of Members of the House would think that the matter was properly disposed of last week.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My right hon. Friend will recall that yesterday a White Paper on airports policy was presented. Will he provide early time for the debate of that White Paper, bearing in mind that a discussion is taking place on the question of a fourth terminal at Heathrow, with a public inquiry in view, and that the Civil Aviation Bill is upstairs in Committee? It is very odd to have a White Paper presented at such a point. Will he not agree that a full debate on the subject would seem to be required?
Mr. Foot: I should have thought that the discussions on the Bill should proceed first. We could then see best how we should discuss later the White Paper. Let us proceed first with the discussions on the Bill.
Mr. Banks: Is the Leader of the House aware that it is nearly a year since we
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had a full day's debate on foreign affairs? In view of the far-reaching developments in the Middle East, the Horn of Africa and other areas, will he give urgent consideration to making time available for a debate on foreign affairs?
Mr. Foot: I think that there have been other opportunities when a full day could have been selected for a debate on foreign affairs, and various aspects of foreign affairs have been debated. I cannot promise an early full day on foreign affairs generally.
Mr. Spearing: Does the Leader of the House recall that a fortnight ago he said that he would make arrangements for the Prayer on the Milk Marketing Board to be taken? Can he tell us when this will be?
Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that when a Prayer is taken on the Floor it will have one and a half hours and that he will put down the proper business motion? That was not done last night, because we had only one hour and 10 minutes for the debate.
Mr. Foot: I shall try to ensure that my hon. Friend and the House as a whole will have the full one and a half hours, according to the undertakings that we have given. I cannot say for certain when that special order will be put down, but I will have a look at it and try to give an indication to him in advance, although he knows that there are difficulties sometimes about giving that advance notice.
Mr. MacKay: Bearing in mind that the Prime Minister did not feel able to enlighten us about the Government's black list, and that many Opposition Members feel that it is morally wrong to blackmail firms when the Government do not have the guts to have a legally binding incomes policy, will the Leader of the House ask the appropriate Minister to make a statement, even if we do not have a full debate on the subject, in the very near future?
Mr. Foot: My right hon. Friend has suggested that a Question should be put down, and I think that that is the best course to follow. In the meantime, I think that it is absurd for anyone to use terms such as moral blackmail or any other such wild and exaggerated language.
Mr. John Ellis: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the extraordinary situation that we had in this House late last night and early this morning? We did not even have one and a half hours for debate concerning an order about drivers' hours—an order which even the Statutory Instruments Committee had not had time to consider—directly resulting from yet another Common Market regulation. Hon. Members who spoke in the debate, whatever their point of view, agreed that it was bungling incompetence that brought our proceedings into disrepute. But we had to pass the order, otherwise another more Draconian order would have come into force, and that would have caused a national transport stoppage. Whatever view we may have on the Common Market, it is not good enough that we should do our business in this way on these important matters. The fact that we had only one hour 12 minutes instead of the full one and a half hours added insult to injury.
Mr. Foot: I understand the feelings that my hon. Friend voices on these matters, not only on his own behalf but on behalf of many other hon. Members. We shall seek to overcome the difficulties. It was understood that the debate should take place on the motion yesterday. It was raised by the Opposition and the debate took place, but we shall do our best to try to avoid these difficulties.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: As the Prime Minister is the senior Treasury Minister and the black list has to do with withholding public expenditure, which Minister will answer Questions next week about the black list?
Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman is familiar with the procedures of the House. He can put down a Question and see the form in which it is accepted on the Order Paper.
Mr. English: Will the debate on broadcasting be on the same motion that is now on the remaining orders, or will it be altered? If it is to be altered, will that be done soon, so that we may have time to consider any altered version?
Mr. Foot: I hope that the motion will go down today. We are hoping to have a motion which will enable my hon. Friend to have his amendment, if he wishes, and for that to be decided by the House. We
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are seeking to accommodate the House in that respect.
Mr. Adley: Has the Lord President seen Early-Day Motion No. 209? Is he aware that the fears expressed in that motion—about the guillotine on the Scotland Bill preventing any discussion on the future role of the British Tourist Authority—have come to pass?
As the Scotland Bill virtually castrates the British Tourist Authority, does he not think that the Government have a responsibility to find time for this House to debate the matter, which is of very great importance not only in employment terms but in relation to overseas currency earnings in this country?
[That this House regrets that, due to the guillotine procedure, no opportunity has been afforded to honourable Members to debate Clause 67, dealing with the revised role for the British Tourist Authority proposed in the Scotland Bill; fears that the guillotine will also prevent discussion of Amendment No. 402 to Schedule 16, in the names of the honourable Members for Christchurch and Lymington, North Cornwall, Dundee East, Caernarvon, North Angus and Mearns, and West Flint, relating to the numbers of members appointed to the board of the British Tourist Authority; believes that the changes proposed by the Government will result in a significant shift of emphasis in the interface between the British Tourist Authority on the one hand and the English Tourist Board, the Scottish Tourist Board and Wales Tourist Board on the other; recognises that the relations between the three boards on the one hand and the British Tourist Authority on the other have sometimes been both uneasy, and a source of conflict both of personality and interest, not always to the benefit and development of tourism to and in Great Britain; feels that the outcome of the changes to the British Tourist Authority as proposed in the Bill may have the effect of replacing on their board people who owe their current board membership to experience and knowledge of tourism matters with people who will be on the board by virtue of their geographic status; and, in view of the success of the British Tourist Authority in consistently achieving a substantial annual increase in overseas earnings from tourism, feels that political placemen,

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regardless of party, are unlikely to make the British Tourist Authority either more effective, more efficient or more able to concentrate on its primary task of attracting foreign visitors to Great Britain.]
Mr. Foot: The discussion on the Bill in the House is not yet concluded. The use of the time allocated under a guillotine or timetable motion is partly the responsibility of those hon. Members, apart from Ministers, who take part in the debate. The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members must look for opportunities of raising the matter.
Mr. Ovenden: Has my right hon. Friend seen Early-Day Motion No. 16, which has now been signed by 180 hon. Members, expressing concern about the continued decline of pharmaceutical services? Many of us fear that the Government's latest offer will do very little to halt the decline. Will he make time available either for a debate on this motion or on the pharmaceutical services in general, including the Government's pay offer, or at least have a debate on the National Health Service, when these issues can be raised?
[That this House, recognising the importance to the community of retail chemists, remains deeply concerned about the rate of closure of such shops and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make available sufficient funds to ensure a comprehensive pharmaceutical service to the whole community and in particular to those most in need—the elderly, the very sick and mothers with young children.]
Mr. Foot: I cannot promise that there will be an early debate on the matter. There are, as my hon. Friend knows, other opportunities of raising some of these questions, and also other ways in which he and others can make representations to the Ministers concerned.
Mr. Raison: Does not the Leader of the House understand that the existence of the blackmail list—which apparently has no statutory foundation—raises deep constitutional issues and that it is wholly inappropriate to think that they can be dealt with by Question and Answer?
Mr. Foot: The usual method in the House is that Questions are put down and Answers given. Then, if the answers
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are not found to be satisfactory in some part of the House, and particularly if they are not found satisfactory by the official Opposition, the official Opposition have their methods for raising debates. That is the usual way in which to proceed. I do not think that anyone should find that procedure extraordinary.
Mr. Skinner: On the subject of loitering in the Division Lobbies and reverting to the matter raised by the hon. Member for Lowestoft—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yarmouth."] Is it Yarmouth? Is that the kippers place?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Bloaters."] Without condoning such practices by Whips or by anyone else for that matter, may I ask my right hon. Friend to find time next week to check the records of the period when the Industrial Relations Bill was going through the House and when there was a lot of loitering and lolling in the Lobbies by many Tory Members who, in their way, were trying to frustrate the Bill's progress and who included at least one who is very near and dear to you, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Foot: I reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) as I did to the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell). I think that this matter was disposed of last week.
Mr. Gow: Will the Lord President reconsider his answer to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about the so-called black list? He knows perfectly well that no hon. Member can put down a Question which will be answered within 14 days, and he may also know that there has been an attempt to table a Private Notice Question today and that it has not been accepted. Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that he must arrange for a Minister to make a statement to the House about this matter very early next week?
Mr. Foot: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the statement on the subject which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made earlier this afternoon. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman and the official Opposition, if they wish, should consider my right hon. Friend's replies and decide which course they wish to take.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I propose to call those hon. Members who have been seeking

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to catch my eye throughout business questions.
Mr. Moate: Will the Leader of the House try to find time to debate the way in which central and local government react to emergencies and natural disasters such as the recent heavy flooding on the East Coast? Is he aware that a large number of constituencies suffered severe damage, that a month later there is still total uncertainty about the extent and scale of central Government assistance, if any, and that we should have an opportunity to debate that and our preparedness for future disasters which could be on an even greater scale?
Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman will probably be aware of the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment on 27th January in which he indicated to local authorities the course which they could take if they wished to do so. I think that that is the proper way to proceed in dealing with the matter.
Mr. Brotherton: May I emphasise what my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) said? We need a statement from the Secretary of State for the Environment about the flooding on the East Coast. Section 138 of the Local Government Act is no good at all to people such as the local government officers of Cleethorpes who need the product of a 6p rate to account for what they have spent already. We need a declaration of intent from central Government that taxpayers will help people who have suffered during the recent floods.
Mr. Foot: I suggest to the hon. Gentleman and to other right hon. and hon. Members concerned that they should urge their local authorities to proceed along the lines suggested by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. We can then see what happens following those representations.
Mr. Thompson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the intense indignation felt in South-West Scotland about the proposal of the Atomic Energy Authority to conduct test borings in our hills with a view to establishing a nuclear dump there, as evidenced by the result of a public opinion poll published in the Ayrshire Post last week which showed 81 per cent.
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of those interviewed as being against it? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear that in mind when deciding when the House should debate the Windscale report?
Mr. Foot: As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse), I appreciate the significance of the Wind-scale report and the great interest in the matter throughout the country, particularly in some parts of the country. I shall take that into account in deciding the way in which we should proceed.
Mr. Baker: Will the Leader of the House find time next week to allow the Foreign Secretary to explain the reasons which led him to deny an earlier statement by the Foreign Office on the executions in Saudi Arabia, since many right hon. and hon. Members find recent events there totally repugnant and the Foreign Secretary's attitude craven?
Mr. Foot: I repudiate any suggestion that the attitude of my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary or any statement made by him on the subject was craven. If the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Baker) studies the matter, I am sure that he will wish to withdraw such a suggestion.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have heard the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House suggest that the question of a black list of firms should be pursued by way of parliamentary Questions. In fact, before coming into the Chamber for Prime Minister's Questions today, I had been endeavouring to table Questions to individual Departments, and I encountered considerable difficulties of order in getting those Questions accepted—[HON. MEMBERS "Oh!"] As I have not given you notice, Mr. Speaker, could you perhaps give a ruling tomorrow on whether it is in order for a Department to be asked to name those firms which are on that Department's black list and why they have been so blacklisted, and also whether it is in order for the Government to accept Questions and have Questions tabled to update the last information given on 12th January in column 790 of Hansard to the effect that

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"The number of firms for the time being affected by Government discretionary action varies from day to day as up-to-date information comes in about their pay settlements. The number of firms currently blacklisted is 19."—[Official Report, 12th January 1978; Vol. 941, c. 790.]
That Answer has been taken as blocking subsequent Questions about how many are on the black list—[HON MEMBERS: "Oh!"]
Mr. Speaker: I shall look at what the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) has raised. I never like answering off the cuff. I shall answer the hon. Gentleman's question tomorrow.

RHODESIA
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. David Owen): I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a statement about Rhodesia.
Together with Ambassador Young of the United States and the Resident Commissioner designate, Lord Carver, I held talks in Malta with leaders of the Patriotic Front from 30th January to 1st February. Lieutenant General Prem Chand, the representative designated by the United Nations Secretary General, also took part.
The purpose of my talks with the Patriotic Front was, in accordance with Security Council Resolution 415, to enter into discussions concerning the military and associated arrangements necessary to effect the transition to majority rule in Rhodesia. Whereas discussions on these matters had been held since September with other nationalist leaders and with the regime, we had not been able to have detailed talks with the Patriotic Front prior to the Malta meeting. We achieved a much greater understanding of each other's position and have agreed to consider the points made and to meet again at a time and a place to be decided.
In these meetings I made clear that Her Majesty's Government, supported by the United States Government, have never wavered in their view that the proposals contained in Cmnd 6919 represent the best route to independence for Rhodesia and the surest guarantee of peace and stability there. On the basis of these proposals we are prepared to accept
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responsibility for bringing the territory to independence following elections and are resolutely committed to ensure that those elections would be manifestly free and impartial. If we are to shoulder that responsibility we must have an assured and supervised ceasefire and, in cooperation with the United Nations, the control necessary to ensure maintenance of peace and good order during the electoral process.
The Anglo-United States initiative depends on the willingness of the parties to the dispute to compromise on their past and present positions, and to allow the people of Zimbabwe as a whole, through fair and free elections, to determine their future. At present the necessary measure of compromise between the parties is lacking and, tragically, and regrettably, it appears inevitable that the armed struggle will for the present continue. The British Government, despite all the obvious difficulties, will continue to work with all parties, within the framework of the Anglo-United States initiative, for a peaceful settlement.
Mr. John Davies: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement asserts time after time that the Government are prepared to co-operate in reaching a peaceful settlement in Rhodesia only on the basis of the Anglo-American proposals? Does not he realise that such an attitude appears to Her Majesty's Opposition absolutely intolerable [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—in view of the progress made in the talks in Salisbury where, after all, Mr. Smith has acknowledged the absolute necessity of universal adult suffrage? How can the right hon. Gentleman maintain such a position?
The Foreign Secretary's remarks about a supervised ceasefire imply that only when the Patriotic Front agrees to stop fighting will he be prepared to move towards a peaceful settlement. This seems to give a veto to the Patriotic Front which is totally at variance with equity in the whole situation.
Did the Foreign Secretary press the Patriotic Front to involve itself in peaceful discussions with other nationalists in Rhodesia, and if not, why not? In view of the many reports to that effect, did the Foreign Secretary or his Department at any time before he went to Malta communicate with the nationalist leaders in

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Rhodesia in some way which hindered the progress of talks there?
Dr. Owen: On the right hon. Member's first point about the Anglo-American proposals, I said that these offered the best solution. I have constantly made it clear that the talks in Salisbury have made progress. The acceptance of one-man, one-vote was an important change in Mr. Smith's position, and one of the central demands in the Anglo-United States' initiative.
On his point about progress being made only when the Patriotic Front agrees to stop fighting, it is a fact that while two armies are fighting each other we do need both sides to agree to a ceasefire. The question of achieving a ceasefire between the two armies, neither of which has won or lost the battle, is extremely difficult. History shows that. One should strive to achieve that, however.
The right hon. Member asked whether I urged the Patriotic Front to talk to other nationalist leaders. The answer is "Yes, I have done so continuously and consistently". It is the division of opinion within the nationalist leadership that is one of the most serious problems in Rhodesia, and it is one reason why it has always been very difficult to achieve a solution.
The right hon. Member asked finally whether I or anyone at the Foreign Office had hindered the negotiations in any way. The answer is "No". We communicated with all parties, as I have now communicated with all parties in the Geneva talks, about the matters that were discussed in Malta. All the parties have the right to be consulted, both inside and outside Rhodesia. Bishop Muzorewa himself denied categorically that any message from us had in any way influenced him to leave the talks. Anyone who knows Bishop Muzorewa knows that he has a mind of his own and that he can come to these decisions by himself.
Mr. Davies: How can the Foreign Secretary reconcile his answer with the words in his statement
"On the basis of these proposals we are prepared to accept responsibility for bringing the territory to independence."
Surely that means that on the basis of other proposals he is not prepared to accept the responsibility. But it does lie
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with the Government to bring Rhodesia to independence. Therefore how can he reconcile these two statements?
Dr. Owen: The reconciliation is very easy. Under the proposals in Cmnd. 6919, for the first time the British Government have accepted that on the basis of these proposals we would assume administrative responsibility for Rhodesia. It is a colony that we have never administered.
I do not think that the House would wish the Government, or give us the authority necessary, to assume responsibility for the administration of Rhodesia while that country was still in a situation of armed conflict.
On the basis of Cmnd. 6919, a ceasefire and peaceful settlement are necessary. I do not believe that the House would wish us to commit ourselves to administering Rhodesia while there is a continued arms struggle. That is an essential point that many people do not seem to understand. It is the responsibility of this House and the Government to pursue a peaceful settlement and to try to achieve a ceasefire, but that is very difficult—
Mr. Churchill: Your policy is "peace at any price".
Dr. Owen: The hon. Gentleman should remember how his illustrious grandfather talked with—
Mr. Churchill: His policy was never "peace at any price"
Dr. Owen: This is not peace at any price. I assure the House that throughout our history foreign Secretaries have had to talk to people in Kenya, in Cyprus and in Israel, where there have been freedom fighters. It is our job to pursue peace and that is what this Government will pursue.
Mr. Arthur Bottomley: In welcoming the Foreign Secretary's statement and congratulating him on his achievements so far, may I urge him to persist in putting forward the Anglo-American proposals, which offer the best hope of securing peace in Rhodesia? May I also ask him whether he agrees that unless the Patriotic Front is associated with the settlement of the Rhodesia problem, there will be no lasting peace in that country?
Dr. Owen: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I know that he has always

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had grave doubts about the possibility of achieving a negotiated settlement. I believe that progress is being made. He tends to forget the situation a year ago when there was no agreement on one-man, one-vote, no Bill of Rights and no agreement on black majority government. There has been substantial movement, and this is important. However, my right hon. Friend has put his finger on the main problem. While the armed struggle continues, it is very hard to see a peaceful settlement and elections taking place and giving a fair measure of opinion in Rhodesia for a future Zimbabwe.
It is in our interests to continue to talk and to try to achieve agreement, but it must be on the basis of viable proposals. That is why I stress that if we are to shoulder the heavy responsibility of administering Rhodesia, we must have a supervised and ensured cease-fire and we must be able to control and ensure its maintenance.
Mr. Thorpe: However grateful we are for the Foreign Secretary's statement, we must accept that the Malta talks ended in a total stalemate. Was there any discussion of the form of provisional government leading to independence? Is the Patriotic Front demanding that power should be handed over to it before the elections? If so, it would be totally wrong to hand over government from an existing minority to what may well prove to be another minority, which could be just as dangerous. Were there any discussions about a caretaker Administration of all parties involved? If so, what was the Patriotic Front's reaction to this?
While I accept that the objective of the proposals is to bring the parties into talks, if we were faced with the brutal choice between those who wanted a solution through force and those who wanted a solution by peaceful means, we should have no alternative but to side with the latter.
Dr. Owen: On the last point I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Although we should pursue peace up to the last moment, I envisage a situation in which we must consider recognising a Government that had assumed power while there was still conflict. This is a reality. We would have to assess that decision on the basis of how many people voted in the
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election and whether the Government were reasonably representative of the vote. The whole House would hope that such a situation could be avoided.
On the point about the governing council—a term used for the method of dealing with the problems of the absolute powers of the Resident Commissioner and ensuring that he and the United Nations have necessary and absolute control—the proposals were discussed. These proposals would be in the hands of all parties, including Mr. Smith. I believe that we have reached some measure of agreement on the criticisms from inside and outside Rhodesia on that matter.
On the Patriotic Front's attitude, it issued a statement today saying that it stood by the principle that the sole guarantor of the irreversibility of the transitional process will be from the Patriotic Front's liberation forces. I do not accept that, and on that point we disagree fundamentally. This is a matter that must be achieved by agreement, and there must be an interim transitional period which is fair to all parties. In that transitional period all parties should have confidence in the measures taken and should feel that they have a fair chance in the election. I stand by that principle.
Mr. James Johnson: Since all parties involved whether white or black are committed to the election on the basis of one-man, one-vote, is this not an advance on the situation of 12 months ago? However, were not the Malta talks bogged down because of the joint objections of Mr. Mugabe and Mr. Nkomo on the United Nations peace-keeping force? If this is deadlocked will the Foreign Secretary turn to the adjoining frontline Presidents, because it is only through those third parties that we can unlock some of the opposition in Mozambique and elsewhere from the Patriotic Front.
Dr. Owen: It is not true to say that we reached complete deadlock, nor is it true to say that we made no progress. To say that is not worthy. The Patriotic Front statement to which I referred earlier said that both parties agreed that there should be some role for the United Nations. That is a significant difference. Within that role there are still problems about the extent and size of the peacekeeping force. This is an important

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element in the Anglo-American initiative. There has been some movement.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, West (Mr. Johnston) is right to say that the front-line Presidents have an important role in persuading all the parties to come to some accommodation. I believe that they desperately want a peaceful settlement.
Mr. Amery: Does the Secretary of State agree that although all of us are concerned to bring about peace, we are even more concerned to bring about justice? Does he agree that if we were to choose between the two, justice would be the priority of this House—that is to say, the fulfilment of the six principles? Does he agree that since the Smith, Muzorewa, Sithole, Chinav, and now the Nkomo and Mugabe factions have all turned down this plan, we have to think of something new? Does he not think that there is something to be said for putting his support behind an internal settlement and, if this were once achieved, trying to see whether the Patriotic Front could be reconciled to it? Would not this be a positive approach?
Dr. Owen: If we were confronted with a choice between peace and justice, think that the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavillion (Mr. Amery) is right. I think that the House would choose justice. But it is a difficult choice. Most people recognise that if one achieves peace, one is better able to achieve justice.
I do not agree that all the parties have turned down the Anglo-American initiative. It is noteworthy that the Reverend Sithole and Bishop Muzorewa see discussions inside Rhodesia in the context of the Anglo-American proposals. Similarly, another difference has been that the Patriotic Front sees progress being made within the framework of the Anglo-American proposals. At one stage Mr. Smith and the South African Government seemed to think that this was a possibility and did not rule it out as a possible road to peace. It is not impossible that Mr. Smith and the South African Government might come round to seeing that this is the best road to peace.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I remind the House that there is a Standing Order No. 9 motion and that later we have timetabled
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business. I hope that hon. Members will be as brief as possible.
Mr. Grocott: Did my right hon. Friend assure the Patriotic Front that any settlement in Rhodesia that provided for separate electoral rolls for white and black people would be consistent neither with the principle of fair elections nor with the principle of majority rule?
Dr. Owen: On many of these measures, which I call confidence-building measures for the white minority, I do not take a rigid view. It is necessary to have confidence-building measures. That is why I insisted that there should be separately elected Members and said that a straight free vote system would not be practicable. There are severe practical problems in a two-roll system. There are other ways, and I have proposed them. These issues are not as important as the actual constitution. Safeguards for constitutional change are secondary. The primary thing is to ensure that the initial constitution is a good one and fair to everyone.
Mr. Gow: Is the Secretary of State aware that his decision to invite the leaders of the Patriotic Front to Malta and his decision to invite leaders of Marxist Mozambique to the conference table has given the impression that he is more sympathetic to a totalitarian Marxist solution than to a solution based on the rule of law? Bearing in mind the cruelty which has been perpetrated by the terrorists in Rhodesia, mainly against the Queen's black subjects, can he assure the House that he called upon the leaders of the Patriotic Front to desist from terrorism?
Dr. Owen: I have condemned atrocities and cruelties from all sides, but the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) knows that in this type of war they will occur. I have made it perfectly clear that I wish this infighting to end. I have never encouraged the continuation of violence.
The hon. Member asked about Marxism. I cannot help it if he and others wish to perpetuate that myth and if the Tory Press wishes to throw this accusation at me. It is false, untrue and unworthy.
Mr. Flannery: Will my right hon. Friend seek every opportunity to impress upon the Tories that the era of white supremist minority rule is dead and gone

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and that they should not look nostalgically towards it? Will he impress upon the Tories that the present situation is entirely due to the Patriotic Front fighting against a white minority that has held the majority down for so long? Can he assure the House that he will continue to bring together the four main black leaders to try to reconcile their differences, because in that way they will obtain one-man, one-vote, which the Conservatives oppose?
Dr. Owen: I agree that if the nationalist leaders would come together many problems would be solved. Most of them have worked together at some stage in the past. It is noteworthy that Mr. Nkomo in particular is recognised by many white Rhodesians to have the qualities that are necessary and that many people who have read about Mr. Mugabe question some of the things said about him after they have met him.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Does the Secretary of State agree that although there is a need to negotiate with the terrorists, there is no need to condone them? Does he accept that after his clear failure in the talks with terrorist organisations in Malta he should adopt the approach suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) and consider holding negotiations with those who hope to establish a Government in Rhodesia based upon the main tribes and races and based upon the far stronger military force?
Dr. Owen: I certainly do not condone violence and I have resisted attempts to make me condemn the Salisbury talks. I have tried to set out the principles and to assess any progress towards independence against the six principles and the principles in the Anglo-American initiative.
Mr. MacFarqubar: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his untiring efforts? What was the attitude of the leaders in Malta to the kind of settlement which, it is disclosed, is being worked out in Rhodesia? What does my right hon. Friend think about the forces of armed Rhodesians that exist in Tanzania?
Dr. Owen: The Patriotic Front make no secret of the view that they dislike and deplore the talks in Salisbury. This relates to differences of opinion among the
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nationalist leaders and the belief that the internal settlement does not reflect the true situation.
One of the problems which the House does not sufficiently realise is the danger of allowing the present situation to continue when considerable bodies of armed men are outside Rhodesia in Zambia and Mozambique and, at times, trained in other places such as Tanzania. This is a potentially dangerous situation. One of the dangers of an internal settlement is that it could spill out into a nasty fight in Africa and involve outside Powers.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I must limit supplementaries to three hon. Members from each side.
Mr. Christopher Price: Many of us feel that my right hon. Friend is quite right not to have supported the internal settlement talks because such an attitude could be the one recipe for continuing war in Southern Africa in addition to the wars that are already going on in the Horn of Africa and the Sahara. Will he ignore the noises from the Opposition Benches about Mozambique, most of which come from people who have never been there and have not seen the hundreds of people there from our Community partners who are giving far more aid to that country than we are and are trying to build up what is becoming a very successful nation?
Dr. Owen: Like my hon. Friend, I have been to Mozambique. It would be helpful if more hon. Members visited that country. Conservative Members would not approve of what they see. They would not approve of its Left-wing orientation, but they would conclude that it was primarily an African nationalist Government wishing to be non-aligned but having relations with the Soviet Union, as it is entitled to do.
Mr. Blaker: Last week and again today, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the six principles and to what he describes as the principles contained in the Anglo-American proposals. Will he clarify this? Have the six principles been superseded or modified in any way, either by the Anglo-American proposals or by the right hon. Gentleman's statement in Salisbury, which, I think, he made on 1st September last? If they have, in what way?
Dr. Owen: I do not think that the principles have been changed, although the first four of them relate to earlier discussions on franchises and such things. The House is now concentrating, and quite rightly so, primarily but not exclusively on the fifth and sixth principles.
Mr. John Mendelson: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the remarkable fact that practically every Opposition spokesman has sought to undermine the major initiative by the Government? Is he aware that they are spending all their time trying to advance a trend, in opposition to the British Government, adopted by Mr. Smith and his regime? They are spending all their time undermining proposals supported by the United States Government. May I urge my right hon. Friend, however, not to be discouraged by their attitude? Many people in this country understand what my right hon. Friend is trying to do and wish him well in it.
Dr. Owen: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said. I shall not waver in my determination to strive for peace. I have made it clear that peace can often come about through many different methods. It does not have to follow one specific process. However, if we were to give up the quest for a ceasefire and a peaceful solution, whatever emerged would be a great deal worse.
Mr. Hastings: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen reports of the statement by Ambassador Young to the effect that any eventual settlement will have to be acceptable to the East—in other words, to the USSR? Does he think that that takes proper account of the naked aggression of the USSR in the Horn of Africa, and will he dissociate himself from that statement?
Dr. Owen: No. I have not seen the statement and I should like to see it before commenting on it. The United States has shown throughout a recognition that if we could keep this issue away from an East-West polarisation and think of it in terms of Southern Africa politics, that would be better. However, we are not naive and we are fully aware that the Soviet Union in Africa has its own intentions. It has supplied arms in an unscrupulous manner. It is clearly trying in certain areas to cause difficulty
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and is not serving the cause of black nationalist leaderships.
Mr. Ioan Evans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that if there is to be a peaceful settlement with justice in Rhodesia, not only Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Sithole, but Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe must take part in the round-table talks? Since we might be moving towards a free Zimbabwe and since black Rhodesians will be returning to a new freedom country, what situation would arise for white Rhodesians who might want to come to this country from the policy of stopping immigration put forward by the Leader of the Opposition?
Dr. Owen: One of my constant efforts is to avoid such a breakdown in law and order that there would be an exodus of white people. That would not be in the interests of Zimbabwe. We have a responsibility to protect white minority rights. The white people have a future role to play in Zimbabwe, and that view is held by the nationalist leaders who say so openly and who want to ensure that the white minority plays its part equally with the black majority in a free and independent Zimbabwe.
Mr. Churchill: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that he does not speak for the British people in his "peace at any price" policy? The British people want the solution of the ballot box, not of the gun. Is he aware that the British people resented his crawlings last October to the Soviet Union in this regard as they resent his most recent cavortings with the terrorist leaders in the Mediterranean? Is he seriously saying that he and the British Government will back an internal settlement in Rhodesia only if it is pleasing to the terrorist leaders and their Soviet paymasters?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS (DECLARATION OF INTEREST)
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I sought to indicate to you earlier that I wished to raise this point of order, and I shall endeavour to be brief. It arises from the point of order raised with you by my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Tapsell) in respect of the declaration of Members' interests. You will recall that he commented on your ruling that it was not

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necessary to declare interests at Question Time when the interests were well known. My point of order is this. The Home Secretary suggested that my comments in respect of the police service arose because I had a vested interest. I wish flatly to deny that, and I want to make three short points, because this is a matter of order in this House.
Only three right hon. or hon. Members have ever had the honour of speaking on behalf of the Police Federation in this House. They are the Prime Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security with responsibility for the disabled, and myself. The Prime Minister frequently—I do not object to this—spoke from the Front Bench on behalf of the Police Federation. I have had the honour to speak from the Front Bench in opposition, but I have never spoken, nor shall I speak, from the Front Bench on this matter.
I hope that you will rule, Mr. Speaker, that it is appropriate, when any hon. Member speaks in respect of an interest which he acknowledges, that he should do it from the Back Benches, not from the Front Bench. The Prime Minister did not follow that practice. I have.
My second point is this. There are many hon. Members, and they are honourable Members, who have a connection with a trade union or a business organisation. The House well understands that. So it should in the case of the Police Federation, which is a statutory body. The police service, too, does not have the right that many other people have to withdraw labour. For this reason, as well as because it is a statutory body, it has become a convention of the House that the police ought to have someone in the House able to express their point of view from time to time.
I hope that the Home Secretary will withdraw any nasty or malicious slur that when I comment on behalf of the Police Federation I am doing it because of a vested interest. I listen to the views of the Police Federation and I make up my own mind. What I say in this House is therefore said because I believe it to be in the public interest. I reject any slur from the Home Secretary or any Minister, particularly from a Government the Prime Minister of which, before assume
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ing that position, spoke from the Front Bench on behalf of the Police Federation, which suggests that I do anything other than this.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I spoke this afternoon about a particular point. It is typical of the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) to bring the Prime Minister into this matter to sully the issue. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) opens his mouth on every occasion but this is a matter between the Police Federation and myself.
In the House this afternoon I was asked about police numbers. I gave the numbers, which showed an increase. The hon. Member chose to dispute them, and in answer to that I said that he had a vested interest in never standing up in the House and congratulating the Government, even in the face of figures. I have never known the hon. Member to get up and do that. It is not to say that I believe he is venal or wrong in having the job that he has, but I will not withdraw a statement I firmly believe in when the hon. Member never in this House looks at the matter of the police objectively.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that that will close the point, unless the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) wishes to pursue it. On this point of order, I think that the Home Secretary would do well to reflect a little further.
Mr. David Howell: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Earlier we discussed the question of police numbers and whether the numbers have been kept up while experienced men have left the force or have been kept up in a way which will strengthen it—a subject of dispute between the two sides.
When my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) raised this matter, he was met with the riposte that he was speaking for a vested interest. That was what the Home Secretary said. While I recognise that we may dispute the question of the strength of the police force, on which we feel strongly, I suggest that it would be proper now to distinguish between the right hon. Gentleman's right to promote his point of view, with which we profoundly disagree, on the police

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and his lack of right to accuse my hon. Friend of promoting a vested interest when he speaks on this very important matter.
Mr. Merlyn Rees: We now have another version—that I said that it was promotion of a vested interest. I did not say that, nor would I do so, because I believe that the hon. Gentleman has a complete right to do so. I may not like the way he does it, and I may sometimes think that he acts in a way with which I disagree. He has a perfect right to do it, but I have a perfect right to say, in response to a question on numbers, that the hon. Gentleman has a vested interest in disagreeing with me on the matter. That is something completely different, and the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) has only made matters worse by getting up.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The Home Secretary has less than handsomely met the point I raised. I feel that it would be better if I were now to withdraw it.
Mr. Speaker: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has reacted.

SUN ALLIANCE AND LONDON INSURANCE COMPANY
Mr. Hordern: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific, urgent and important matter, namely
"the decision of the Secretary of State for Trade to force the Sun Alliance and London Insurance Company to cut its premium rates."
The headquarters of this Company lies at Horsham, in my constituency, and this is a matter which will affect hundreds of my constituents. I submit that it is a specific matter, because the decision taken by the Secretary of State for Trade last night affects only the Sun Alliance company and his decision that the premium rate should be cut affects only that company.
That the matter is urgent seems clear to me, because the decision was announced only last night by the Department of Trade—and it is also urgent, I submit, because unless the matter is debated very quickly the Government will lay upon the company an order, which it
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is not entitled to do. I say that it is a matter of considerable urgency. Of its importance I do not think there can be any doubt at all. There is no statutory Government pay policy in existence and yet it is well known and widely remarked that the Government have a black list of firms to which they refuse to give either orders or an entitlement to temporary employment subsidy where pay increases are given about the limit of 10 per cent.
That is the position as it affects a number of companies on what is known as the black list. Of course, with a company like Ford different considerations appear to apply, but in respect of the Sun Alliance company, in my constituency, there is no question of that company's breaking pay guidelines in any way. That company has made a pay award of 9·9 per cent. and has also made an improvement in its pension arrangements. It has done so on a specific undertaking given by the Secretary of State for Social Services on 18th July last, in which he said that improvements to occupational pension schemes would be free from pay policy limitations.
I submit, therefore, that the Government have absolutely no grounds at all to try to force the Sun Alliance company to reduce its premiums. Clearly, this is a matter of far wider interest and importance, going beyond its effect upon one company, important though that company, may be. You will have heard this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, of the considerable concern there is in the House about the existence of the black list, and I submit that we should debate this issue at the earliest opportunity.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member did me the courtesy of giving me notice before 12 o'clock this morning that he wished to raise this matter and to move for a debate in order to discuss
"the decision of the Secretary of State for Trade to force the Sun Alliance and London Insurance company to cut its premium rates"
I listened with care to the hon. Gentleman. As he and the House will know, it is not for me to say whether or not this is to be debated. I have to decide only whether it must take precedence over all other business tonight or on Monday next.
I am afraid that I cannot rule in the hon. Gentleman's favour and must reject his application.

EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL (INSTRUCTION)
Mr. Spearing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My point of order concerns the Instruction for the next-but-one item of business. Briefly, I drew the attention of the House to this matter on Thursday last, 26th January, referred to at column 1643 of the Official Report. As I understand it, Instructions to a Committee of the whole House are normally debatable under Standing Order No. 45, although the timetable motion carried last Thursday requires this Instruction to be decided forthwith.
The current "Erskine May" points out, on page 455, that time table motions have usually either excluded the possibility of Instructions altogether, or, if tabled and selected, provide for a short debate prior to decision. Thus, it seems that prohibition of debate today marks a new departure in procedure for which so far no reason has been given. I submit, however, that the motion could have even more unusual and novel effects. If passed it would make it possible for the Committee to consider a new clause tabled by the Government which otherwise would be out of order. This is shown by the tabling of New Clause 8, with consequential Amendment No. 191, which widens the scope of the Bill by adding words to its Long Title. I understand that it is unusual for the Government to table such an amendment, but I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, to the likely effect of so doing in conjunction with the timetable motion that has specific reference and time allocation to the new clause.
On this occasion it may be that both the new clause and the enlargement of scope will not provoke disapproval, since the Government may claim that they are tabling New Clause 8 to give effect to undertakings already given. The undertaking was made as long ago as 1st December last year, some eight weeks ago, but only now can we debate this in the context of a guillotine.
You may be aware, Mr. Speaker, that earlier in the proceedings of the Committee the Chair and the Committee have been placed in difficulties, since the restricted terms of the Long Title and the
720
Bill as drafted have ruled out of order a number of amendments that had been tabled but could not be debated. Now the Government not only wish to widen the scope of the Bill; they have provided a specific slot in the timetable for their new clause to be debated, which, had it been tabled earlier by a Back Bencher or, indeed, by Her Majesty's Opposition, would have been ruled out of order. Thus, earlier relevant debate would have been prohibited on what later may become within the scope of the Bill.
In this instance it may be that the change in scope of the Bill, whilst significant, is not wide, but that is not the central point. Procedurally, it now appears that a Government can, half-way through a Bill, when some of its most important clauses have been disposed of, produce an undebatable Instruction which permits the enlargement of the scope of the Bill, and provide themselves with an exclusive slot for their new amendment, while effectively preventing anybody else making use of the enlarged scope. If that is indeed the case, I submit that it is a procedural innovation of some significance, the implications of which will be readily apparent.
I therefore hope that it will be possible for you to confirm or correct the procedural position that I have described. If, indeed, this mechanism is technically in order, I submit that its use to change the scope of a controversial constitutional Bill, guillotined in equally controversial circumstances, is a matter of which the House should take note, since some may believe that it should not be a precedent and should never happen again. I apologise for the length of this point of order, but I believe that a ruling from the Chair is required by the circumstances now before the House.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Instruction that appears on the Order Paper prima facie is contrary to item 4 of the timetable resolution which currently governs the proceedings on which we are about to enter. Paragraph 4 says that
"No Motion shall be made to change the order in which the Bill is to be considered in Committee or on Consideration."
The House passed that, so surely, under the normal rule that once the House has taken a decision it cannot countermand

721
that decision in the same relevant time period, the Chair is stopped from putting this Instruction to the House by the resolution of the House already passed, which says that no such provision shall be taken. I read it again:
"No Motion shall be made to change the order in which the Bill is to be considered in Committee or on Consideration."
I realise that it is the intention formally to take this Instruction before entering on to the other business under the timetable resolution, but it appears on the Order Paper not as an item to be taken before the European Assembly Elections Bill but to be taken encompassed within that timetable. That being the case, I repeat my contention that the resolution already passed by the House to stop the Chair from putting this Instruction to the House.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) for giving me notice of the point of order that he wished to raise. I do not quarrel at all with what he said on the matter of procedure. He may well be correct in his contention that this is the first time that this provision has appeared in an allocation of time order, but my answer to both hon. Members is that, whether this is so or not, the fact remains that this order, with all its provisions, was agreed to by the House on 26th January. No rule of order is infringed thereby.
If it were necessary, I could read it to the House, but the House discussed it during the debate on the timetable
722
motion, and it is my duty to carry out the order that the House has made.
Mr. Jay: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In order to avoid any impression that the Government are not merely altering the rules in the middle of the game in a way that applies to one side only, surely there is a further point that arises on the Notice Paper listing the amendments to the Bill.
The Foreign Secretary's new clause appears as New Clause 8, on page 1292 of the list of amendments, but the amendment to the Long Title of the Bill, No. 191, appears later, on page 1338. As matters now stand, we shall discuss, apparently, the amendment to the Long Title, which is to put the new clause in order, after we discuss the new clause. I ask for your guidance on the question how it can be in order to discuss New Clause 8 before we have considered the amendment to the Long Title which puts this discussion in order.
Mr. Speaker: What I am concerned with is the Instruction. What happens in Committee is not my concern at the moment. I am concerned with the Instruction, and I have ruled on it.

EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL (INSTRUCTION)

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
  Ordered,
  That the Customs Duty (Quota Relief) (Paper, Paperboard and Printed Products) Order 1977 (S.I., 1977, No. 2048) be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Coleman.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL
  [1ST ALLOTTED DAY]
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Order [26th January],
  That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the European Assembly Elections Bill that they have power to make provision in the Bill to secure that no treaty which provides for any increase in the powers of the Assembly of the European Communities is ratified by the United Kingdom unless it has been approved by an Act of Parliament.—[Mr. Merlyn Rees.]
  Question agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee. [Progress, 12th January.]
  [Mr. OSCAR MURTON in the Chair]
  4.45 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: On a point of order, Mr. Murton. You will have heard the point which I raised briefly and prematurely with Mr. Speaker. What I should like to know is whether we take first New Clause 8, which has been put down by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, or Amendment No. 191, which alters the Long Title in order to put the new clause in order. If we take the new clause first, how can it be in order to do so before we have amended the Long Title?
  The Chairman: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that the whole subject is laid down under Standing Order No. 42.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: Further to the point of order, Mr. Murton. Standing Order No. 42 does indeed cover this point. It states:
  "if any such amendments shall not be within the long title of the Bill, they shall amend the long title accordingly, and report the same specially to the House."
  I think that the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was not that the power of the Committee does not exist. He was arguing that, if it were to be done, it should be done before the new clause is taken on which it depends. I therefore submit that, while Standing Order No. 42 deals with the matter, it does not deal
  724
  with the matter in the order and sequence to which my right hon. Friend refers.
  The Chairman: Such Questions are always put at the end of all proceedings on the Bill.

  EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL
    Clause 3

      METHOD OF ELECTION
      Amendment proposed [12th January]: No. 26, in page 2, line 8, leave out from 'system' to end of line 9.—[Mr. Powell.]
      Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
      The Chairman: Before I call the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), who has the Floor of the Committee, I remind the Committee that we are discussing at the same time the following amendments:
      No. 42, in Schedule 1, page 11, line 8, leave out from 'Act' to end of line 14.
      No. 45, in page 11, line 15, leave out '79' and insert '81'.
      No. 100, in page 11, line 17, leave out '66' and insert '67'.
      No. 180, in page 11, line 20, leave out 'I shall be that of' and insert '2 shall be in'.
      No. 103, in page 11, line 36, leave out subsection (2).
      No. 105, in Schedule 2, page 15, line 13, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 108, in page 15, line 16, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert United Kingdom'.
      No. 109, in page 15, line 20, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 110, in page 15, line 25, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 111, in page 15, line 27, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 112, in page 15, line 30, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 107, in page 17, line 25, leave out 'in Great Britain'.
      No. 113, in page 17, line 40, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 114, in page 17, line 43, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 115, in page 18, line 8, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 116, in page 18, line 10, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      No. 117, in page 18, line 25, leave out 'Great Britain' and insert 'United Kingdom'.
      I have since added to the list the following amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison):
      No. 192, in Schedule 1, page 11, line 15, leave out '79' and insert '81'.
      No. 193, in page 11, line 20, leave out '1' and insert '3'.
      Mr. Gerard Fitt: As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted—
      I feel tempted to repeat some of the remarks I made late on 12th January, but I am certain that hon. Members who were present, and even those who were absent, know the importance of the amendment and will have read my remarks.
      At the outset, I am addressing my remarks primarily to the Conservative Opposition. They were the Government who introduced proportional representation into Northern Ireland. They did it for a very specific reason, and with the full support of the Labour Party both in the country and in this House. They did it because they believed that the first-past-the-post system for elections in Northern Ireland did not adequately reflect the views of the widely divergent community in Northern Ireland. They did that consciously and deliberately in the hope that it would lead to the break-up of the monolithic parties on both sides—loyalist and nationalist—and that moderate candidates with a different outlook and vision would emerge and would break away from extreme attitudes that have existed in Northern Ireland for so long. To some extent, that happened because men were elected at that time who did not have the diehard views that had been held by so many throughout Northern Ireland's existence.
      The Alliance Party was born out of that decision to introduce proportional
      726
      representation into Northern Ireland. I am not a member of that party and I am not sure that I support many of its views, but it was a creature of that Conservative Government's intention to introduce PR.
      From the creation of Northern Ireland in 1922 until 1952 many of the elections were unnecessary. I remember one election in the late 1940s or early 1950s in which there were 18 or 19 unopposed returns in the 52 Stormont constituencies. The whole Cabinet was elected before a single vote was cast.
      People did not consider it worth while to fight the incumbents of those seats, whether Protestant or Catholic. Some may claim that this reflected the will of the majority of the electorate, but I have never taken that view. I regard it as a negation of the concept of democracy. In this country there is always the possibility, however remote, of people changing their minds and Members being ousted. We have seen some strange election results over here. That cannot happen in Northern Ireland because of the political and, particularly, the religious divisions that were deliberately created by the British Government who imposed partition on the island of Ireland.
      People do not talk of Labour or Tory, Socialist or Conservative in Northern Ireland. They talk about the majority and the minority. That is the attitude that has led to absolute and total disaster in Northern Ireland. Do not let us hear any talk of majority opinion from those who are rooting for the first-past-the-post system. That majority was artificially created. Sir Edward Carson went into every town, village and hamlet in the counties of Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan and asked how many Protestants and how many Catholics lived there. When he discovered that the Catholic population was 280,000 he could not guarantee to govern them from Belfast, so he decided to sacrifice 70,000 Protestants in those counties to the fortunes of the Dublin Government. Those are his words not mine.
      How can we expect democracy or even the beginnings of democracy and normal political divisions to exist when that was the terrible base on which the State of Northern Ireland was created?
      The Tories are trying to renege on the decisions they took. I know they have a

      727
      one-line Whip on this vote and are trying to tell us that they are having a free vote on their side, but in every corridor in this place they are canvassing as vehemently as possible, trying to get all their Members to go into the Lobby with the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) to vote for the first-past-the-post system.
      It is appropriate that this debate should be opened up again now, particularly after the remarks of the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave), who made clear yesterday that the Tories were prepared to play the Orange card to get the votes of that galaxy of talent on the Unionist Bench. One day we find the Opposition courting the Orange vote and the next they are playing the black card. That shows the extremes that the Opposition are prepared to go to and the extremists on whose votes they are happy to rely in order to get to power.
      For the non-Unionist electors in Northern Ireland, this is a crucial amendment. After reading the remarks of the hon. Member for Abingdon, who said that power sharing is out of the window for the Tories and that they are going for the return of functions to local authorities and majority rule again—in effect, going back to what was happening between 1968 and 1970—the amendment and the vote on it have become all the more important.
      Hon. Members from Northern Ireland are squealing for more seats at Westminster. They say that they are under represented and want to be treated like any other part of the United Kingdom. A Speaker's Conference has just concluded its investigation into this matter, and it is possible that more seats will be given to Northern Ireland.
      We see from the list of amendments that the Scottish National Party wants more European Assembly seats for Scotland, Plaid Cymru wants European seats for Wales and, indeed, every political party involved in any way with the European elections wants more seats in the Assembly.
      I ask the House to consider the total arrogance of the Northern Ireland Members on the Opposition Benches. The Government decided that there should be three seats allocated to Northern Ireland to take
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      account of the serious divisions that exist in that part of the United Kingdom—divisions that were created and fomented by that terrible decision to partition Ireland.
      The Government have not yet been able to create a system of government for Northern Ireland. The last Conservative Government tried to create a political structure which would command the support of the minority and the majority communities. That experiment was brought to a disastrous end by the actions of the loyalist strikers in 1974. We see no hope of the Conservatives even lending aid to those who are still trying desperately, in the face of considerable opposition, to create these structures.
      5.0 p.m.
      In putting forward their proposals for three seats and PR in Northern Ireland, the Government were saying, as they have said so often, that Northern Ireland cannot be treated like any other part of the United Kingdom. Why? It is because Northern Ireland is totally different. It is situated on the island of Ireland, and we must have 15,000 troops walking the streets of Northern Ireland to keep people from killing each other.
      I was at a debate last night when a supporter of unionism trotted out the argument that "We must support the Unionists in Northern Ireland because they supported us during the war." I know many people in Northern Ireland who were not Unionists and supported this country during the war, including myself. I know many people in Northern Ireland who do not give any allegiance to the concept of loyalism as we know it in Northern Ireland. So that is not a valid argument.
      The Unionists believe that they can win two seats under a first-past-the-post system in Northern Ireland. They have doubts about a third seat. They say "If there were a third seat we probably would not benefit", so they have tabled an amendment to delete three and substitute two, because they cannot be sure of winning the third. This is the unbelievable argument advanced by the Unionists.
      The hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd), speaking for the Opposition, mentioned some of the effects of introducing proportional representation in Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for

      729
      Down, South tries to bamboozle and mystify the Committee with his percentages and figures. He says that when PR was introduced in Northern Ireland it made no great difference, because such-and-such a percentage voted one way and such-and-such a percentage voted the other way. That is completely untrue.
      When PR was introduced for local government in Northern Ireland it took control away from the Fermanagh Unionists who had controlled Fermanagh for over 50 years. It was notorious as one of the most bigoted county councils ever to exist in Northern Ireland. The chairman of its housing committee said "We are not going to build any houses for those terrible Roman Catholics because if we do we will give them votes and they might use those votes against us." People of that type controlled Fermanagh County Council at that time. PR took that grip away from them. Since then we have had a rotation of the chairmanships in that council.
      Derry has been mentioned time and again. It has been said that there was a 60 per cent. nationalist majority or perhaps 65 per cent. and a 35 per cent. Unionist minority. With the gerrymandering of wards that took place, those who were in the majority had no possible chance of ever achieving any of the elected offices or any of the jobs under the control of the Deny Corporation. Since then we have had SDLP councillors, Unionist councillors and Alliance councillors, but if we were to agree with the case put forward by hon. Members representing Northern Ireland there would be absolutely no change. They believe that their voice is the only one that should be heard on behalf of Northern Ireland.
      The right hon. Member for Down, South intervened on the last occasion when I was speaking when I made reference to a report issued by the Fair Employment Agency. It was the British Government that instituted that legislation and carried it through and put it on the statute book. I was proud and honoured to be a member of the Committee that considered it. Every Unionist Member was entirely opposed in Committee to every word, almost every comma, of that legislation. They said only a year ago "There is no discrimination in Northern Ireland—absolutely none. There is no need for legislation. Gerry Fitt is a
      730
      terrible liar. Don't believe anything the SDLP says."
      A report was issued a week ago by the Fair Employment Agency, which was brought into existence because of a committee set up under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee). It conclusively stated that there had been a lot of discrimination. I listened to the Chairman of the Fair Employment Agency on Sunday in Northern Ireland speaking on television. He said that, although the report was based on a census which took place in 1971, there was no reason to doubt that the same practices were happening now, in 1978.
      Mr. William Craig: The hon. Gentleman is distorting and misrepresenting the contents of that report. The Chairman has pointedly said that the report did not say that there was any unfair discrimination in employment.
      Mr. Fitt: The report said that it was two and a half times more difficult for a Catholic to obtain a job in Northern Ireland than it was for a Protestant. I do not know what sort of deduction the right hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Craig) will make from that, but that is what it said. I have asked the Chairman of the Fair Employment Agency to circulate the report to every hon. Member so that we can all read it and not have to listen to the apologies. Every Member knows that it was British legislation that set up the Agency, and we should all have an opportunity to read its report.
      I was referring to the intervention by the right hon. Member for Down, South, who said "If we went into Europe and there were two seats or three seats we could quite adequately represent the interests of all the Northern Ireland people in Europe". I pointed out to him that that it did not seem very likely if we took into account what had happened in Committee over the Fair Employment Agency. He said "No. You have not got the point. If we went into Europe, even if we did the wrong things, there would be only three of us among 81". In other words, they would be overruled. What a sad commentary on themselves! They say "We are going to go there and be just as reactionary over there as we have been here, but you have a very good safeguard".

      731
      I believe that this attitude, which has been expressed so long and so often by the Unionists, completely justifies the Government in saying that Northern Ireland is completely different. I have some close friends in the Labour Party. Some of them are said to be on the Left and said to be Marxists. I do not care what label is put on them. I have known many of them since 1966 when I became a Member of the House. Some of them are very close colleagues of mine. I have supported them.
      My record of support of the ideology of my colleagues here and the general ideology of the Government is beyond question. I went into their Lobby to help to carry the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill, which was carried by one vote and was bitterly opposed. There was never any doubt about my loyalty when it came to supporting the Socialist Government. Therefore, I find it a little difficult to understand how some of my friends can find any possibility of agreement with Unionist Members.
      I know that there is a dislike, almost detestation, of Europe—
      Mr. Stan Thorne: The Common Market.
      Mr. Fitt: I accept that. I am not saying what I would have done had I been representing an English constituency. I am quite prepared to say that had I been living in Britain I might have felt—there would have been doubts—that the first-past-the-post system was not all that bad. I should probably have gone for proportional representation, but the first-past-the-post system in Britain has not been the disaster that it has been in Northern Ireland. That is why I say that Northern Ireland must be treated as being unique.
      We have an alleged spokesman in Europe—John Taylor, a former junior Minister in the Ministry of Home Affairs. I think that he sets himself up to be the Northern Ireland spokesman in Europe, though there are other contenders for the title. The Unionist Party would have difficulty in agreeing on candidates, no matter how many seats there were. Mr. Taylor is not elected. He is not even a member of a local authority. But he went to the Strasbourg Parliament last week and told the elected representatives "I do
      732
      not like the way in which you are operating your regional aid and cross-border development plans."
      That was said by a man elected only by the voice of the Unionists, with no votes cast for him. He was referring to plans being promulgated by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Office. He said that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would have to account for the skulduggery in which he was engaged in trying to create better living conditions for people in the cross-border areas that have been sadly neglected for years.
      How much more would the Unionists' arrogance be if they had the three seats and were speaking with a united voice in defence of their own interests? It must be remembered that the areas contiguous to the border—Fermanagh, Tyrone, Crossmaglen and Armagh—are non-Unionist areas. Unionist votes are not to be secured there. That is why the Unionists do not like any developments, because those developments will go some way to alleviate the distress of people who will not vote for them. That is the attitude the Unionists will carry into Europe, and it should be thrown out of the House.
      The Conservatives may have an interest in this vote, not because they are opposed to PR on this occasion but because they hope that there may be an election soon, which may result in their needing to seek the support of hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies. If that is their motive in forcing their members into the Lobby with the right hon. Member for Down, South it is totally dishonest and totally unworthy of any of those Conservatives who have experience in Northern Ireland. They know how necessary it was to try to have a system of elections which gives an opportunity for all sections to be represented.
      I know that many of my colleagues on the Government Benches may have mental reservations. They do not like the Common Market. I understand their opposition, but I say to them "Whatever your opposition to the Common Market, don't let it lead you into the trap of voting with that crowd on the Unionist Bench. You are not talking about the Common Market. You are talking about a one-party-ascendancy State, a one-party-ascendancy mentality that has existed in

      733
      Northern Ireland and is only now being broken down".
      Unionist spokesmen have said on local television and radio this afternoon that they are happy that there will be a large abstention—
      Mr. Percy Grieve: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would have conversations in which we might all join in.
      Mr. Fitt: If the hon. and learned Gentleman wants me to keep going until six o'clock, I shall give him the second half of my speech.
      I was telling my colleagues "Whatever reservations you may have, don't let them force you into the Lobby with the supporters of the amendment". I have heard this afternoon that Unionist spokesmen have told local reporters that they are happy with the undertakings they have been given by some Labour Members that they will vote with them on this amendment.
      Mr. Robert J. Bradford: Will the hon. Gentleman substantiate that?
      Mr. Fitt: It can be substantiated only when the Division bells ring.
      I say to the Government and Conservative Members with knowledge of Northern Ireland that there are people who are opposed to Unionism, have fought it all their lives and have seen no change in it. Unionism and loyalism have not changed. The strike of May 1974 brought any change to an end.
      If there is to be any change in Conservative thinking on the amendment, let the Conservatives' spokesmen say so at the Dispatch Box. Yesterday's statement by the hon. Member for Abingdon was an indication of just how far Right the Conservative Party's swing has been. I say to my colleagues "Don't let yourselves be associated with them."
      5.15 p.m.
      Mr. James Molyneaux: It has always been my ambition and intention to get Northern Ireland debates into a constructive frame of mind. I have not always succeeded. In spite of the numerous accusations made by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt),
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      many of them unfounded, I shall not be tempted to respond in like manner, because I do not think that that is the attitude we should adopt to what is a serious matter for the whole United Kingdom, and therefore for the whole Committee.
      We were gratified by the expressions and evidence of support in the earlier part of the adjourned debate for our point of view that there should be a common system of election throughout the United Kingdom for the same body.
      Perhaps I may say a word about the number of seats, as that matter has featured in the discussion to a great extent this afternoon. On 14th July 1976 the Prime Minister reported on suggestions put to him that Northern Ireland should have three seats.
      "as opposed to the two seats which they might expect as an electoral quotient."—[Official Report, 14th July 1976; Vol. 915, c. 654.]
      There was no reference in the statement to the method or system of election to be employed. It dealt solely with the matter of the number of seats.
      Our amendments seeking to reduce the number of seats from three to the two that the Prime Minister himself considered to be the proper electoral quotient are designed to bring us into line with, to make us absolutely consistent with, the position that we have taken up in the Speaker's Conference. Our reiterated demands in the House of Commons were simply for assurances and undertakings that Northern Ireland would be treated in exactly the same way as the rest of the United Kingdom. We believe that it should be given no more and no less than other parts.
      It was for that reason that we never asked for extra seats at Westminster. We asked simply for fair representation, and we have always contended that that is no more than our due.
      Mr. Tom Litterick: Fair representation for whom?
      Mr. Molyneaux: We have taken account of the views put to us in the House. I hope that it may make some appeal to those hon. Members below the Gangway who were at the receiving end of some extraordinary reasoning at the latter end of the speech of the hon. Member for Belfast, West when I say that we

      735
      have taken account of the view that Northern Ireland should accept three seats. Therefore, we shall not move our amendments which were designed to reduce the number to two.
      We take account of the feeling that it should be possible for the non-Unionists—I prefer to use that term—to return a representative for one of the three Northern Ireland seats if they desire. Of course, we cannot promise that that will be so, but we subscribe to the view, which I think is commonly held on both sides of the Chamber, that at least they should have the opportunity.
      I hope that this will do something to ease the hon. Gentleman's problems and that this gesture will be regarded as a contribution to a more reasonable approach. It may also contribute to a certain defusing of feeling on the political scene in Northern Ireland. We have therefore concluded that the combination of three seats for Northern Ireland with the simple first-past-the-post method of voting would provide the most acceptable solution for all concerned. It is important to remind ourselves that on 13th December the Committee rejected a proposal that a form of PR should be used to elect representatives to the European Assembly.
      Mr. Clement Freud: If it is parity that the hon. Gentleman is after, surely it would be sensible to wait for the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference and then aim for parity in line with the new representation in Northern Ireland.
      Mr. Molyneaux: No, I must disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The matter that we are discussing is not relevant to the Speaker's Conference. We are saying that we want parity. It is the view of the House of Commons—I hope that the Liberal Party will not disagree with it—that we should accept three seats so that non-Unionists in Northern Ireland have an opportunity, to put it no higher, of electing someone to represent them. I hope that that is acceptable to the Liberal Party.
      Mr. Freud: It was the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) who said that, in view of parity, he felt that it was unfair to claim more seats. I was
      736
      saying that if as a result of the Speaker's Conference, of which much has been written in today's newspapers, the number is increased, surely parity will be affected.
      Mr. Molyneaux: No. Any result of the Speaker's Conference could not possibly affect the electors in Northern Ireland. We have the Prime Minister's own words, namely, that the two seats represented the quota for Northern Ireland and that that was in line with the representation from Scotland and Wales. There cannot be any dispute about that.
      On 13th December in Committee we took the decision not to use a form of PR for election to the European Assembly. The Committee took its decision in the full knowledge of what the consequences would be for minority parties—or perhaps I should say smaller minority parties—in Parliament and in the country. The Committee did not set out to discriminate against minorities. After careful consideration, it concluded that the advantages of the simple majority system outweighed all other considerations.
      It happened that the Government had made provision in Clause 3(2) to ensure that the same thinking should not automatically be applied in one part of the United Kingdom, namely, Northern Ireland. Admittedly, when that clause and subsection were drafted seven months ago, the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic probably felt that it was the most likely system to benefit non-Unionists and would be more beneficial than the simple majority system. I am not so sure that the United Kingdom Government would now go for the same option in the light of much more detailed calculations that show conclusively that the opposite is more likely to be the case, and that non-Unionists would stand more chance of being elected on the simple majority system given three seats in Northern Ireland—[Interruption.] I am sorry, Sir Myer, but I appear to be interrupting a conversation on the Government Benches. I apologise to you, Sir Myer.
      Even if the Government still adhere to their original belief, namely, that a section of the minority will benefit from PR, what possible justification can there be for putting a Northern Ireland minority, or a section of that minority,

      737
      in a privileged position compared with the other minorities—perhaps far more significant minorities—in Great Britain?
      I hope that the Liberal Party will not mind if I mention that it has taken a great deal of stick for its stance in supporting Her Majesty's Government. It must be thinking this matter over and must surely be asking itself "Is it not so that in the eyes of the Government we have supported some minorities appear to be more important than others?"
      Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: It should be on the record that the Government proposed a proportional system for the whole of the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is not true to say that there are different standards. The hon. Gentleman asks whether there should be a special case. I remind him that it was a Liberal Prime Minister who introduced PR in 1921 in Northern Ireland.
      Mr. Molyneaux: Yes, Northern Ireland as distinct from the rest of the United Kingdom. The Government of the day stopped short of introducing it for the whole of the United Kingdom, and it does not seem that the right hon. Gentleman's proposals have found great favour with the majority of Members of the House of Commons in terms of the United Kingdom as a whole.
      My plea to the Committee is not to depart from the position that it took on an earlier occasion. Times have changed in Northern Ireland since my right hon. Friend the Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) moved his amendment on 12th January. In the interval there has been a growing sensitivity to anything that would even appear to weaken constitutional stability. Mr. Lynch and certain other influential spokesmen have rather incautiously expounded a totally new doctrine that seems to disavow the simple democratic stance that I think would be acceptable in the House of Commons, namely, that there can be no change of sovereignty until the majority so desires. Their statements are bound to have a most unsettling effect.
      The people of Northern Ireland look for reassurance in the face of what has now become political warfare. That has to be added to the terrorist warfare to which they have been subjected. Such
      738
      reassurance cannot be provided by imposing on one small part of the United Kingdom an electoral system that is utterly different from that designed for the rest.
      It has been said time and again from both sides of the Chamber that Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom. That assertion will have a hollow ring if the Parliament in which the people of Northern Ireland have placed their trust decrees that a different system shall be used to elect from Northern Ireland to the same body. In this case it is all the more serious because we are discussing elections to an external body.
      We have heard the complaint that Northern Ireland is different. My plea to the Committee is to avoid taking any step that will perpetuate that difference. It is our policy in all matters that Northern Ireland shall not be different in any way from the rest of the United Kingdom. Only a few hours ago the Prime Minister, from the Treasury Bench, urged that there should be a national approach to Northern Ireland matters. I heartily endorse that view, and I trust that the Committee will endorse it
      The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees): Until the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) spoke, it was possible that we should have two debates on Northern Ireland, one on the method of election, which we continue to debate, followed by a debate on the number of seats.
      In a sense, the hon. Gentleman has disposed of the second debate, but I pick up one point made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) in our earlier discussion. The right hon. Gentleman reminded us, as I think his hon. Friend did today, that the Prime Minister said in the House some months ago that the number of seats for Northern Ireland was a matter for us. Whatever was said at that time—there was a great deal of romancing as to who had decided what and where—the number of seats allocated to Northern Ireland is a matter for us.
      I make the further point that the method of election that we decided for the United Kingdom as a whole—and that we shall decide relatively soon for one part of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland—is also a matter for the House of Commons. It is not a matter

      739
      that comes within the rules or regulations of the EEC.
      Mr. J. Enoch Powell: It will be.
      Mr. Rees: The right hon. Gentleman says that it will be. I thought that in the last few months I had learned that in discussions views change. Later tonight we are to have a wide-ranging discussion. As of now, it will remain so if I have my way.
      The Committee will decide on first-past-the-post for the United Kingdom as a whole. I recommend that we reject the amendment—namely, that there should be first-past-the-post for the United Kingdom as a whole and the single transferable vote system for Northern Ireland.
      5.30 p.m.
      Mr. Thorne: Does my right hon. Friend recognise the dilemma facing Labour Members to which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) rightly referred? Some of us are opposed to the Bill per se and naturally are opposed to any method of proportional representation that would enable the Government to bring in such legislation and to act upon it expeditiously. We see the question of STV in a vastly different light—
      The First Deputy Chairman (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I must ask the hon. Member to limit the length of his intervention.
      Mr. Rees: I have the point that my hon. Friend was making. Indeed, it might save me a little time because he put it so clearly. We are talking about the method of election to the European Assembly.
      Mr. Thorne: For Northern Ireland.
      Mr. Rees: But we are discussing the matter in the context of the problem in Northern Ireland with which we have been concerned for the last eight years and had varying degrees of success or of failure, however we look at it.
      The argument that I want to deploy takes note of the fact that there is a special, unique problem in Northern Ireland. I know that the right hon. Member for Down, South reads and thinks a great deal about the part of the United King
      740
      dom that he represents. We do not want to make the mistake that was repeated decade after decade in the last century, namely, for Englishmen, and Welshmen, too, no doubt, to consider the problem of Northern Ireland viewed only from this side of the water. It was in that context that many mistakes were made. Let us consider the problem in the context of Northern Ireland. It is on that basis that I wish to deploy my argument.
      Mr. Powell: So the criteria that the Secretary of State will put forward are criteria that would apply precisely to election to the House of Commons of Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland. Therefore, he is going to justify STV as a method of election to this place.
      Mr. Rees: The right hon. Gentleman is right that, if the argument that I am deploying is right, Northern Ireland is different. Therefore, let us have a different form of election for the EEC. I fully accept that the logic of what I am saying applies there.
      What will determine the view of the Government on that proposition at the end of the day? I understand—I do not know what the outcome will be—that there is a Speaker's Conference on seats for Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that with extra seats in Northern Ireland—I have been looking at the division of districts, and so on—there will be a different attitude to the matter. This is not the time to consider that aspect. However, with extra seats there is no doubt that there can be extra representation of the minority community. I suggest that we should deal with that part of the question now and come to the other part later.
      Mr. Fitt: Does my right hon. Friend agree that in 1974 the loyalist-cum-Unionist votes in Northern Ireland amounted to 52 per cent. and that that enabled them to get 11 seats in this place and to wreck the whole of the Sunning-dale experiment?
      Mr. Rees: I could give many reasons for the Sunningdale experiment failing We could indulge here in making a list. Those with 92 out of 100 could get a certain mark. The 92 out of 100 mark could be the greatest failure of all time because the last eight may be the kernel of the problem. When I went to Northern

      741
      Ireland as Secretary of State I discovered that the fact that all seats for the Westminster Parliament had been won was a major factor in affecting emotion in the loyalist community. However, that emotion in the loyalist community was there anyway. In my view, it was no more than a factor.
      Mr. James Kilfedder: The Secretary of State indicated that he was contemplating proportional representation as the system of election for the increased number of Members from Northern Ireland to the Westminster Parliament.
      Mr. Rees: No.
      Mr. Kilfedder: Was the right hon. Gentleman not hinting at that?
      Mr. Rees: I think that to allow one's thoughts to broaden a little in certain company leads to trouble. Perhaps I may make the position clear. I was not contemplating anything. The right hon. Member for Down, South properly took me up on the argument that, if I were arguing for speciality on the basis of election to the European Parliament, that would apply to the argument about election to the Westminster Parliament. I am not contemplating anything. I should hate the Protestant Telegraph in Belfast or any other newspaper of great circulation in Northern Ireland to have that as a headline. I was musing, which is perfectly proper in the course of a debate.
      Rev. Ian Paisley: I should like to ask the Secretary of State one question on the matter of new seats for Northern Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would be possible for other minority parties to be represented at Westminster. Is he aware that the seats with large constituency numbers are on the east and on the west of the Bann and that, unless he is prepared to give 22 seats to Northern Ireland, there will not be a large number of minority parties represented?
      Mr. Rees: That shows the weakness of musing. At the moment there are 12 seats in Northern Ireland. I do not know how many are to be recommended. I was led in that direction by the logic of the right hon. Member for Down, South, supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt). I am recom
      742
      mending that there should be a single transferable vote for the three seats in one constituency in Northern Ireland.
      Mr. Martin Flannery: As a prelude to my question, will my right hon. Friend accept from me that, having spoken to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), the minority community regards the vote on this matter as one of the most important votes that has ever taken place in the House of Commons? I should like to ask a question based on that matter. The troubles in Northern Ireland clearly spring from the minority community having a sense of a complete lack of democracy in the past—
      The First Deputy Chairman: Order. Whilst I am in the Chair, I shall not permit any hon. Member to use the subterfuge of an intervention to make a speech. I must ask the hon. Member to make his question as brief as possible.
      Mr. Flannery: The question that I should like to ask, based on the prelude that I have already outlined, is: if the minority community is again totally defeated in an election, shall we not be returning to the past from which we hoped a little step had been taken, and would not the hand of the IRA and the mirror image forces of the IRA be massively strengthened?
      Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend raises a matter with which I shall deal a little later. It is an important point and I shall return to it.
      The hon. Member for Antrim, South mentioned a matter on which I am sensitive. I want to make clear a matter that anybody who has worked in Northern Ireland will know, and I know that many Opposition Members visit the Province frequently. In arguing the way I do on behalf of the Government, in no way could I personally depart from the strong feeling that was expressed in the Downing Street declaration in 1969, namely, that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and that without the consent of its people there can be no change. That view was expressed in 1973 in the Northern Ireland Constitution Act by the Conservative Administration, and it is a view that we support.
      My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland made this clear

      743
      in the furore over the speech by the Taoiseach of the Irish Republic. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but it is a special part. My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West and others have made this clear on a number of occasions. He put the matter in the context of our having in the Province 13,000 soldiers and of there being direct rule. He also mentioned the economic aid which has been properly given in that part of the United Kingdom.
      In view of the agonising discussions on this subject in the House of Commons in the last seven or eight years, it must be agreed that Northern Ireland is different. Therefore, one has to have a different way of dealing with this part of the United Kingdom, which is part of the ancient Province of Ulster. However, I am in no sense arguing that this means that that Province is a lesser part of the United Kingdom or one that can be pushed aside at any time. That is not within the gift of any Government at Westminster.
      These matters do not arise as a result of any words that are said. I learned in 1974 that words were not enough. I learned that, quite apart from what was said in conferences, speeches and editorials on this side of the water, one had to understand the basic feelings in Northern Ireland. I respect those feelings, even if I do not agree with them. We are by no means saying that from an electoral point of view Northern Ireland is expendable, because it certainly is not. That is the view of the Government, and it is my personal feeling—a feeling that is reinforced by many friends in Northern Ireland, and no doubt by many enemies, too. However, that feeling exists and I shall never depart from it.
      Let me turn to the next point on policy. We must sometimes examine unusual ways of dealing with the problems of Northern Ireland. We all know that one can play with words, and when I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland I was advised not to use the phrase "power sharing" or whatever the "in" word was at the time. The phrase "power sharing" probably means one thing to one set of people and another thing to others. I do no care very much about that consideration. Let us not have any clever stuff about hiving off Derry because one
      744
      seat happens to be in another county, and let us not concern ourselves with cutting off the area at the bottom so that one can include more Protestants. No such move will ever have success. This will have to be achieved in respect of the whole of Northern Ireland and in relation to what we have inherited. It is in that context that we must deal with the matter rather than to concentrate too much on ideas that are sometimes floated so as to draw up the boundaries to give constituencies which the Catholics could win—a kind of institutionalised gerrymandering. I would not give that task to the Boundary Commission to undertake. One cannot instruct the Boundary Commission to deal with a city in that way.
      5.45 p.m.
      One can muse on these matters, but I hope that my friends from Northern Ireland will not take this musing too far. I once examined the idea—and I did no more than examine it—of dividing Northern Ireland into cantons. I hope the foreign word will not frighten some people. The idea of cantons was to make it possible to have some parts of Northern Ireland where the minority community could take the lead. However, when the matter was put into the computer and all the rest of it, it was not found to be possible as a proposal.
      The reason that that idea did not succeed was that we considered that we should not be dealing with Northern Ireland as a whole but would, in effect, be dividing Northern Ireland. The scheme we have put forward involves the single transferable vote for Northern Ireland as a whole, from Derry City to Newry and the Newry and Mourne District Council. We wish to deal with the matter on that basis, and I must point out that I am not trying to win a battle that I lost some months ago when the House decided on a first-past-the-post system. Let us then attempt to be different in dealing with the problem.
      Mr. Freud: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland has always felt, with some justification, that Northern Ireland was an institutionally gerrymandered Province?
      Mr. Rees: I do not know the answer to that question. If it were to be institutionalised, it would have to be done by

      745
      the Boundary Commission, and that might be less offensive. The main point I wish to make is that this election should be carried out with the Province as one constituency.
      The point has already been made that proportional representation of this kind would give more representative results. I remind the House that STV provides for PR. It envisages multi-Member constituencies in which the feelings could be totted up. The vote can be transferred to a second or subsequent choice, and so on. I shall have to remind myself of the system by looking at my notes, but these matters do not need to be drawn to the attention of anybody in Northern Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West said, this used to be the system used in local elections in 1920, and it was again introduced by the Conservative Government in 1973.
      I reread the debates that took place on this matter, and passionate pleas were made for STV in Northern Ireland to deal with what the then Secretary of State desired to do. We have used that system in local elections, and in elections to the Assembly and to the Convention. Let us not look at these matters with blinkered eyes but let us decide to handle this matter on the basis of the STV. There is a history of STV in Northern Ireland, and it applies to Northern Ireland as a whole.
      I have carried out a little arithmetic on this matter, and examined the different parts of the problem. I have also looked at the matter as a whole and looked at the votes that were cast in the plebiscite. When I examined the local elections, I discovered that there were polls of 50 per cent. In Northern Ireland the votes are much higher than in other parts of the United Kingdom.
      Mr. Frank Maguire: They vote when they are dead.
      Mr. Rees: Whatever the reason, the electorate in Northern Ireland votes at a very high rate. I know that even on this system of STV there is no guarantee of what will happen. There is no guarantee about how people in Northern Ireland will vote. There will be various bands of voters. There will be Provisional Sinn Fein, and Official Sinn Fein no doubt standing, as its members usually do,
      746
      under Republican Clubs. There will be a variety. There will also be in Northern Ireland the provincial scene. Individual people will be seen on a wider ticket. That might bring unusual results.
      Mr. Fitt: Archbishop O'Fiaich would be a good candidate.
      Mr. Rees: The hon. Gentleman says that the Archbishop would be a good candidate. We shall see.
      I am saying that Northern Ireland is different. It is different in so many ways. It is different for the same reason that the Conservative Government, up to 1973, argued to the House of Commons. Every argument that they used at that time still stands. Nothing is different in that respect about Northern Ireland. This is a means of trying to get the people of Northern Ireland to work together for the good of Northern Ireland as a whole and not in penny packets in different parts of Norhern Ireland.
      Therefore, it is only on the basis of PR, STV, that the minority community will have any chance of direct representation in the European Assembly. The Government's view is that that is the way to do it.
      I say again that if any hon. Members vote today on the basis of strongly-felt feelings because of the EEC argument, they will be doing what has been done so many times before—forgetting the particular problem of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. There is no way of shuffling it off. There is no way of doing that with Irish stories to show that it is all a bit peculiar. None of that will do. It is our responsibility. Our responsibility means STV. Let us vote for the needs of Northern Ireland and not for some transient feeling here.
      Mr. Douglas Hurd: When the Committee began to debate this amendment on 12th January I tried to make clear the views of the Opposition Benches. I would not have felt the need to intervene again in the debate had it not been for suggestions that I have seen in the Press today, particularly on the front page of The Guardian which were reflected, though not in any unfair or unreasonable way, by the speech of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt). I am referring to suggestions that there

      747
      has been some change in the attitude of the Conservative Front Bench as compared with our attitude of three weeks ago. That is not so, and it can be shown not to be so.
      The view that we hold this evening is the same as that which I expressed on 12th January. Much more important than that, it is the same view as that expressed in July of last year when this Bill was first debated in its first incarnation last Session. Last July, exactly the same point of view was expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw). We did not agree with the later amendment in the name of right hon. and hon. Members of the Ulster Unionist Bench, which would have reduced the allocation of Northern Ireland seats from three to two. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) on what he said on that point today. I think that he is wise not to press to a vote that suggestion of a reduction in Ulster representation.
      However, we agree, and have always agreed, with the theme embodied in the amendment that we are now discussing, which was moved by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell). The elections that we are now discussing—this is a point to which the Home Secretary did not address himself—are quite different in their nature from those elections to which the Home Secretary and the hon. Member for Belfast, West have referred, which were held in Northern Ireland under STV. The point about those elections is that they were held in Northern Ireland, and held in Northern Ireland alone. The point about the elections that we are now discussing—this is the essential point—is that, unlike the elections to which the Home Secretary referred, they are being held throughout the United Kingdom at the same time. Therefore, we believe that the comparisons to which so many references have been made do not seem valid on this occasion.
      Mr. Kevin McNamara: Are not local government elections held throughout the whole of the United Kingdom—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—but in Northern Ireland they are held under STV whereas we have the first-past-the-post system, and so on?
      Mr. Hurd: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the facts he will find that that is not so. The elections to which reference has been made were Northern Ireland elections. Here we are talking about United Kingdom elections for a European Assembly or Parliament.
      Mr. Frank Maguire: Has the hon. Member visited Northern Ireland?
      Mr. Hurd: I have—very recently. As the hon. Member has inquired, let me say that I went there on the day after our previous discussion of this matter, and ringing in my ears were the views of hon. Members that this was a matter to which enormous importance was attached. I listened to many people in Northern Ireland. Not one of them raised the matter at all.
      Mr. Frank Maguire rose—
      Mr. Hurd: I have given way. Time is limited. I have a certain amount more to say. I am grateful for the hon. Member's intervention. I should now like to continue, in view of the very limited time available.
      Mr. Frank Maguire: Will the hon. Member give way?
      The Chairman (Mr. Oscar Murton): Order. If the hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd) does not desire to give way, the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maguire) cannot press him to do so.
      Mr. Hurd: All right. I shall give way to the hon. Member.
      Mr. Frank Maguire: I understand that the hon. Member has actually spent a day in Northern Ireland. Is that right? Does that entitle the hon. Member to speak authoritatively on the subject? Could I go to the hon. Member's constituency and spend about four hours there and then speak for his constituents?
      Mr. Michael Mates: Why does the hon. Member not come here more often?
      Mr. Hurd: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maguire) for his historic intervention. I am trying to respond, on behalf of the Conservative Party, to a debate on an amendment and a clause of the European

      749
      Assembly Elections Bill. By a coincidence, I had an opportunity to discuss this matter in Northern Ireland in the circumstances that I described.
      Our belief, and the principle to which we hold, is that where elections are held across the kingdom on the same day they should be held under the same system in all parts of the kingdom, and that if they are not so held, there will be renewed doubt and renewed speculation in Northern Ireland about the intentions of the House of Commons and the present Government towards the constitutional position of the Province.
      It is surely dangerous to multiply without necessary cause special arrangements, exceptions and all the ways in which Northern Ireland is made different from the rest of the United Kingdom. Surely, if we persist in treating Northern Ireland as abnormal and exceptional in all circumstances we make it more likely that the abnormal and exceptional features that exist will be perpetuated. Surely, we should be on the other tack, trying to reduce and confine what is exceptional in the circumstances of Northern Ireland.
      We have thought seriously about this problem over recent months. We have concluded that the overriding principle should be that where elections of this kind, quite different from local elections or elections for the Convention or the Assembly, are held for the first time in the United Kingdom, across the kingdom, on the same day, it would be unwise to hold them in Ulster under a different system from that under which they are held in the rest of the kingdom.
      Mr. Thorpe: Are we saying that it is more unwise to have two different electoral systems operating in one election—as happened, for example, when we had university seats elected by a different system, which the Conservative Party did not want to abolish and sought to continue—than to run the very real risk that under the first-past-the-post system it is unlikely in the extreme that the non-Unionists minority would get any representation at all?
      Mr. Hurd: There are two views from qualified people as to what would happen in the third constituency. The right hon. Gentleman knows that perfectly well.
      Mr. Frank Maguire rose—
      Mr. Hurd: I do not want to predict the results of the elections.
      For the reasons I have given, which we believe to be overriding, on grounds both of prudence and of principle, I suggest that those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are present should support the amendment moved by the right hon. Member for Down, South.
      Rev. Ian Paisley: Not all Unionists—
      It being Six o'clock, THE CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Order [26th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 150, Noes 241.

      Division No. 92]

      AYES

      [6.0 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Channon, Paul

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Alison, Michael

      Churchill, W. S.

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Arnold, Tom

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Goodhew, Victor

      Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Banks, Robert

      Clegg, Walter

      Gorst, John

      Bell, Ronald

      Cope, John

      Gould, Bryan

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Cormack, Patric

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Biffen, John

      Costain, A. P.

      Gray, Hamish

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Grieve, Percy

      Blaker, Peter

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Body, Richard

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Hampson, Dr Keith

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Durant, Tony

      Hannam, John

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Emery, Peter

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Eyre, Reginald

      Hastings, Stephen

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Fell, Anthony

      Holland, Philip

      Brooke, Peter

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Hordern, Peter

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Buck, Antony

      Forman, Nigel

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Budgen, Nick

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Hurd, Douglas

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Fox, Marcus

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Carson, John

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd)

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Nott, John

      Skinner, Dennis

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Onslow, Cranley

      Spearing, Nigel

      Kimball, Marcus

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Lamond, James

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Sproat, Iain

      Lamont, Norman

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Stanley, John

      Lawson, Nigel

      Percival, Ian

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Tapsell, Peter

      Luce, Richard

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Raison, Timothy

      Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

      MacGregor, John

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Viggers, Peter

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Rhodes, James R.

      Wakeham, John

      Mates, Michael

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Mather, Carol

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Maude, Angus

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Wall, Patrick

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Moate, Roger

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Molyneaux, James

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Shepherd, Colin

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Shersby, Michael

      Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

      Silvester, Fred

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Neave, Airey

      Sims, Roger

      Mr. H. McCusker and

      Nelson, Anthony

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Mr. Neil Marten.

      Neubert, Michael

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Dormand, J. D.

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Anderson, Donald

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Judd, Frank

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Dunn, James A.

      Kerr, Russell

      Ashton, Joe

      Dykes, Hugh

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Atkinson, Norman

      Eadie, Alex

      Kinnock, Neil

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Ellis, John(Brigg & Scun)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      English, Michael

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Bates, Alf

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      Litterick, Tom

      Bean, R. E.

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Loyden, Eddie

      Beith, A. J.

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Luard, Evan

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      wing, Harry (Stirling)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

      Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

      Faulds, Andrew

      McCartney, Hugh

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Boardman, H.

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      McElhone, Frank

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Flannery, Martin

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Bottomley, Peter

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Maclennan, Robert

      Bradley, Tom

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      Madden, Max

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Freud, Clement

      Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh)

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W.

      Buchan, Norman

      George, Bruce

      Marks, Kenneth

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.(Cardiff SE)

      Ginsburg, David

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Golding, John

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Campbell, Ian

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Maynard, Miss Joan

      Cant, R. B.

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Meacher, Michael

      Carmichael, Neil

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Carter, Ray

      Hardy, Peter

      Mendelson, John

      Cartwright, John

      Harper, Joseph

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Mikardo, Ian

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Molloy, William

      Cohen, Stanley

      Horam, John

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Coleman, Donald

      Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Morris, Rt Hon Charles R.

      Cook, Robin F.(Edin C)

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Corbett, Robin

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Cowans, Harry

      Huckfield, Les

      Moyle, Roland

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Crowther, Stan(Rotherham)

      Hunter, Adam

      Newens, Stanley

      Cryer, Bob

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Noble, Mike

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Ogden, Eric

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil

      John, Brynmor

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Deakins, Eric

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Ovenden, John

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Doig, Peter

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Pardoe, John

      Park, George

      Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

      Parker, John

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Pendry, Tom

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Ward, Michael

      Penhaligon, David

      Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

      Watkins, David

      Prry, Ernest

      Snape, Peter

      Watkinson, John

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Stallard, A. W.

      Weetch, Ken

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Steel, Rt Hon David

      Weitzman, David

      Radice, Giles

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Stott, Roger

      White, James (Pollok)

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Strang, Gavin

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Surmmerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Whitlock, William

      Robinson, Geoffrey

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Roper, John

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

      Rose, Paul B.

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Woodall, Alec

      Ryman, John

      Tierney, Sydney

      Woof, Robert

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Tinn, James

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Sandelson, Neville

      Tomlinson, John

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Tomney, Frank

      Sever, John

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Mr. Ted Graham.

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Question accordingly negatived.
      The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Six o'clock.
      Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 170, Noes 59.

      Division No. 93]

      AYES

      [6.12 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Dykes, Hugh

      Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

      Alison, Michael

      Eadie, Alex

      McCartney, Hugh

      Anderson, Donald

      English, Michael

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Maclennan, Robert

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      Maquire, Frank (Fermanagh)

      Atkinson, Norman

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W.

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Faulds, Andrew

      Marks, Kenneth

      Bates, Alf

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Beith, A. J.

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N w'd)

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Freud, Clement

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Boardman, H.

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      George, Bruce

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Bottomley, Peter

      Ginsburg, David

      Morris, Rt Hon Charles R.

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Golding, John

      Moyle, Roland

      Bradley, Tom

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Buchan, Norman

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Ogden, Eric

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Hardy, Peter

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Campbell, Ian

      Harper, Joseph

      Pardoe, John

      Carter, Ray

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Park, George

      Cartwright, John

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Parker, John

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Pendry, Tom

      Clarke, Ken (Rushcliffe)

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      Penhaligon, David

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Horam, John

      Perry, Ernest

      Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Cohen, Stanley

      Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Coleman, Donald

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Corbett, Robin

      Huckfield, Les

      Radice, Giles

      Cowans, Harry

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Hunter, Adam

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

      Hurd, Douglas

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      John, Brynmor

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

      Cunningham, Dr J.(Whiteh)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Roper, John

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Rose, Paul B.

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Judd, Frank

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Doig, Peter

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Sandelson, Neville

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lamborn, Harry

      Sever, John

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lipton, Marcus

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Luard, Evan

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Tinn, James

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

      Tomlinson, John

      Whitlock, William

      Snape, Peter

      Tomney, Frank

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Stallard, A. W.

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

      Steel, Rt Hon David

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Strang, Gavin

      Ward, Michael

      Wilson, R(Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Watkins, David

      Woodall, Alec

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Watkinson, John

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Weetch, Ken

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Weitzman, David

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Mr. Ted Graham and

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      White, James (Pollok)

      Mr. Thomas Cox.

      NOES

      Ashton, Joe

      Kerr, Russell

      Rathbone, Tim

      Bean, R. E.

      Kilroy-Sllk, Robert

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Bell, Ronald

      Kinnock, Neil

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Biffen, John

      Lamond, James

      Robinson, Geoffrey

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Carmichael, Neil

      Litterick, Tom

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Carson, John

      Loyden, Eddie

      Ryman, John

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      McCusker, H.

      Scott, Nicholas

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Madden, Max

      Skinner, Dennis

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Marten, Neil

      Spearing, Nigel

      Flannery, Martin

      Maynard, Miss Joan

      Stoddart, David

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Mendelson, John

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Milkardo, Ian

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Gould, Bryan

      Molloy, William

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Molyneaux, James

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Newens, Stanley

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Ovenden, John

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Mr. John Ellis and

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Mr. Roger Moate.

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 2

      NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES
      Mr. George Reid: I beg to move Amendment No. 16, in page 1, line 12. leave out '81' and insert '89'.
      The Chairman (Mr. Oscar Murton): With this we may take the following amendments:
      No. 17, in page 1, line 12, leave out '81' and insert '91'.
      No. 124, in page 1, line 12, leave out '81' and insert '112'.
      No. 94, in page 1, line 14, leave out '66' and insert '67'.
      No. 125, in page 1, line 14, leave out '66' and insert '93'.
      No. 20, in page 1, line 15, leave out '8' and insert '16'.
      No. 126, in page 1, line 15, leave out '8' and insert '10'.
      No. 21, in page 1, line 16, leave out '4' and insert '14'.
      No. 127, in page 1. line 16, leave out '4' and insert '6'.
      No. 95, in page 1, line 17, leave out '3' and insert '2'.
      No. 46, in Schedule 1, page 11, line 15, leave out '79' and insert '87'.
      No. 47, in page 11, line 15, leave out '79' and insert '89'.
      No. 128, in page 11, line 15, leave out '79' and insert '110'.
      No. 129, in page 11, line 17, leave out '66' and insert '93'.
      No. 50, in page 11, line 18, leave out '8' and insert '16'.
      No. 130, in page 11, line 18, leave out '8' and insert '10'.
      No. 51, in page 11, line 19, leave out '4' and insert '14'.
      No. 131, in page 11, line 19, leave out '4' and insert '6'.
      Mr. Reid: It would be very foolish to pretend that the block of amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mrs. Ewing) is any more than a mere marker for the future. It gives an indication of the size and scope of the representation that Scotland could reasonably expect in the European Parliament if it had full self-government. It is

      757
      a clear commitment to equality of treatment between countries of comparable size.
      And it is recognition that Scotland is in a real political dilemma. Scotland and Denmark have roughly the same population, yet Denmark gets 16 European seats and Scotland gets only half that number.
      The House of Commons has been playing the numbers game this afternoon From all quarters come proposals to increase the numbers of British MPs going en bloc to Strasbourg or Luxembourg. That may be good gamesmanship, but it is no practical good in international politics.
      In proposing 16 seats for Scotland I am not suggesting that England should be robbed of eight seats to make up the difference. I am simply putting down a marker for the future. So long as the United Kingdom is stuck with 81 seats, we are in a stymied situation. Scotland can get parity of representation only through independence.
      The situation is profoundly unsatisfactory. Scotland and Denmark have populations of the same size, yet Denmark has double the representation. Southern Ireland has half the population of Scotland, yet it gets 15 seats. Luxembourg, with half the population of our capital city of Edinburgh, gets six seats. One Scots Member in the European Parliament will be representing 600,000 people, while an MP from Luxembourg will be representing 60,000—one-tenth of that number. The Irish and Danish MPs will each represent 205,000 and 315,000 respectively. Against these figures, it is not surprising that many Scots people feel disadvantaged, dismayed and annoyed.
      Scotland is an old nation, as old as Denmark or Ireland, yet one Scotsman is now apparently worth only one-third of an Irishman or one-half of a Dane. When major matters come before the European Parliament, such as the fishing question, which involves the Scots and the Danes, the Danes will have double the number of votes, double the representation in committee and double the number of speeches. That is just not on.
      As a member of the Select Committee on Direct Elections, I was very impressed by the consensus of Scottish evidence on this point. This suggested that Scotland should be closer to parity with
      758
      Denmark. The Labour Committee for Europe said in evidence:
      "The gross disparity can only lead to a strong bias against the Community in areas such as Scotland."
      The organisation Scotland in Europe, which is certainly not a front for the SNP, said:
      "The view is very strongly held in all sections of the Scottish electorate that some way must be found of giving Scotland sufficient seats to bring it into some sort of balance with Denmark."
      It then warned that, if this did not happen,
      "The question of Scottish seats will rumble on as a political issue for years and years."
      I believe that that is true.
      Politicians of such diverse views as the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) and the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) have given similar views in Committee and on the Floor of the House. In the debate in April last year, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North gave a plain warning when he said:
      "I do not see how Scotland can be represented in the European Assembly with those numbers."—[Official Report, 20th April, 1977; Vol. 930, c. 300.]
      For once I am in agreement with him.
      In the period between April last year and now we had hoped to see some movement towards a compromise by the Government. We had hoped that the Government would accept the proposal of the right hon. Member for Devon, North of 10 seats for Scotland or that of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North of 12 seats. These figures could have been kept within the total British number of 81 seats. However, there has been precious little movement from either the Government or the official Opposition.
      As in the debate on the Scotland Bill, the logic of the position seen from Scotland is clear. Either we Scots continue as a British province—and there is a perfectly legitimate case for that—or we go it alone and find that the next General Election will take us further down the road of seeking Scottish representation at the top table of Europe as of right and ending the second division status that our eight European Members would have.
      In its evidence to the Select Committee on Direct Elections, the SNP faced up squarely to the problem of ensuring the

      759
      balance between the large States and the small communities. We proposed then that every State should have six seats, plus one for every 700,000 voters. Had this proposal been adopted, Scotland and Denmark would have been reasonably in balance, and the comparable English regions would have had roughly the same representation. But that was not to be. Europe has been carved up in a most arbitrary manner with small States being catered for most generously. The nations that are buried in a multinational State. however, have not.
      I have five reasons for wanting to increase our representation. We are not a region; we are a nation. Those who compare the English regions with Scotland are not comparing like with like. We are one of the oldest nations in Europe, and we have 1,000 years of history behind us. Secondly, we are unique in having our own distinctive legal and administrative system based on Continental models. I know of no other unitary EEC State which has separate and distinct systems of law.
      6.30 p.m.
      Thirdly, we are placed on the northernmost periphery of the EEC. Our strategic importance is out of all proportion to our size and of the utmost importance to the Western world, especially with the Soviet fleet at Murmansk. Fourthly, we have major marine and energy resources which are vital not only to the British Isles but to the European Community at large and which will become increasingly so.
      Fifthly, in Scotland we have our own regional diversity. That is why we need a Highland scat. We have a scattered population which occupies one-third of the land mass of the British Isles. That is the reason for always having a slight weighting of 12 or 13 per cent. in the number of Scots who come here.
      We should also look at the Community in terms of the specialisation of Members. I understand that a representative in the European Parliament requires a greater degree of specialised knowledge than does a Member of the House of Commons. That specialisation will not be possible if Scotland is given only eight seats. One or two of the Members would have to be lawyers. I wonder whether the
      760
      other six or seven would be able to spread their interests across such diverse issues as oil and fish, our large electronics industry and the treaty industries of coal and steel. I doubt that they will.
      I am sure that, with the Danes and the Irish having double the representation of the Scots, however, the issue will not go away. The arrival of the Scottish Assembly—though I have my doubts whether it will come during this Parliament—certainly will increase the feeling of distinctiveness and Scottishness north of the border. Much of the money devolved by the House of Commons to the Assembly will fall within the general competence of the EEC. Lord Kilbrandon was right when he said that Edinburgh will talk increasingly—and directly—to Brussels and that the London link will wither away.
      With no seat as of right at the top table and with only half the representation of Denmark, the sense of being poor relations will grow. In that sense, comparisons with English regions are invalid.
      As I have said, we are in a stymied situation because the representation for the British Isles cannot be changed. The only way to square the cricle is for Scotland to go it alone and seek separate membership of the EEC. We shall have to say bluntly to the Europeans No deal on fish, no deal on oil. "Our interests will be better served on our own than as part of an increasingly bankrupt British State. Only then will Scotland get the parity that it merits.
      I said that I was putting down a marker for the future. I do not expect any movement on the number of Scots seats today, nor would I suggest disadvantaging the English. But anyone who seriously thinks that we shall be content with eight seats is wrong. Anyone who thinks that this issue will go away is wrong. It will rumble on for years.
      Mr. Donald Anderson: The hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) has given us a variation on his normal theme of separation. He has set out five reasons why Scotland should have increased representation. His first reason was the nub of it all. He has a vision of Scotland as a separate unit. On that basis he compared Scotland with other nation States. He happened to choose the

      761
      analogy of Denmark, but had he chosen Luxembourg he might have had four or more times the number of seats that he proposes. Therein lies the basic difference—whether the United Kingdom is to be represented at Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg as a united unit or whether there should be separate units for Scotland, Wales and England.
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing: The reason why Luxembourg has six seats, which is disproportionate to its population, is that the member States recognise that it is not possible to function with fewer than six seats. Six is recognised as a minimum to provide any kind of presence for a member State.
      It is unworthy to argue that we should claim twice as many seats. We are not asking for that. We do not grudge Luxembourg its seats, because six is the minimum. We say that when the number is above six the population should be taken into account.
      Mr. Anderson: The SNP's argument is based on a difference in concept. Are we a United Kingdom, or should there be separate sovereign units within the United Kingdom? The hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire said that there was a separate legal and administrative system in Scotland. I cannot see how a separate legal system has any relevance to the number of representatives that there should be in a Parliament.
      The hon. Member's second argument for increased representation rested on Scotland's decisive role in the defence of the West. He probably knows that the EEC has no defence responsibilities, although some people allege that it is a political arm of NATO. There are no defence responsibilities within the competence of the EEC. Therefore, that argument also is irrelevant.
      The third argument concerned energy resources. That argument could also apply to the coal and natural gas resources in England. Is the hon. Member saying that, if one part of the United Kingdom has a resource, that entitles it to more representation than another part of the United Kingdom?
      The hon. Member also argued that Scotland comprised about one-third of our total land mass. He is on firmer ground there, because it has been accepted
      762
      that larger rural areas should be entitled to a greater proportion of seats. Indeed, Scotland already has, or will have on these figures, a proportion of seats to population which is larger than a mathematical ratio would justify. This argument has some validity and could be pursued.
      The hon. Member argued that eight Scottish Assemblymen could not cover the diversity of the relatively limited functions that are within the competence of the Community. That is odd when one considers that 100 American senators cover the whole diversity of responsibilities in the United States.
      When faced with a choice of seeking an attainable and realistic goal or something which is wholly unrealistic and is simply put forward for publicity or to be in accordance with separatist views, the nationalists invariably choose the latter and leave out the more realistic matters. There might have been some validity if the suggestion involved a limited increase in the number of seats.
      I stray to the Welsh nationalists. They are not quite as modest as the Scottish nationalists, who suggest only that their numbers should be doubled from eight to 16. The Welsh nationalists want an increase from four to 14. One wonders on what basis and by what comparison they make that suggestion. Why should they not be a little more grandiose in their aspirations and suggest a proportion equal to that of Luxembourg, which would provide eight times the number of seats allocated?
      If it is in order on this amendment, I shall deal with the Scottish and the Welsh suggestions since they cover some of the same general points. For Wales I would accept that there is a strong case for a modest increase, more modest than that suggested by the Welsh nationalists, from the present figure of four to five. That is suggested not on the basis of a concept of Wales as an independent sovereign unit but rather on the normal criteria applied in this country of population, distance, size of constituencies, geographical factors and the sort of problems that will face any Member of the European Parliament in endeavouring to carry out his tasks on behalf of a widely-spread area.
      Mr. Gwynfor Evans: The hon. Member is ignoring what for

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      us is a basic fact—that is, the nationhood of Scotland and Wales. We want to see that nationhood recognised. It is not just on grounds of democracy or justice that we in Wales object to the fact that we have only four Members while Luxembourg, with the population of Gwent, has six. That is an affront to our nationhood.
      Mr. Anderson: I rest my argument on the basis of justice. The hon. Gentleman repeats his claim of nationhood up and down Wales, and he has had a consistent and rather negative response—
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing: Claim?
      Mr. Anderson: Yes, claim. The claim is that Wales is or should be a separate nation, and it is on the merits or otherwise of that claim that we shall be regaling our respective electorates at the next General Election.
      On the present allocation of four seats, Wales, compared with Scotland which has eight, is doing less well. Whereas Northern Ireland and Scotland have their proportion of seats to their ratio of population rounded up, in the case of Wales the figure is rounded down. Let me give the figures. Scotland has 7·5 per cent. of the total electorate, and yet it is proposed that it has eight Assemblymen. Northern Ireland, with a mere 2·1 per cent. of the total United Kingdom electorate, is allocated three seats. The allocation for Wales, which has 4·1 per cent. of the total electorate, is rounded down to four.
      There is also a problem which is likely to face the Boundary Commissioners in drawing boundaries in Wales on the basis of four seats. Wales is comprised of roughly two areas. There is the major part, the highly-populated industrial valleys of Wales, there are the counties—the three Glamorgans and Gwent, which comprise 63·6 per cent. of the total population—and there is the rest of Wales, which is mainly rural in composition. That compromises 36·3 per cent. of the electorate. If the seats are to be drawn on the basis of community of interest, contiguity and so on, it will be difficult to give two seats to the industrial areas and two to the rural areas, or to decide which parts of the industrial areas should be detached to link with rural areas. Even if that were so, the size of the constituencies would be very large and would
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      hardly make for effective or easy representation.
      6.45 p.m.
      The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John): I am following my hon. Friend's argument, and I accept that there are some rural problems which are not shared everywhere in Wales. But is it not one of the features of Welsh parliamentary constituencies even now that, whereas a seat may be industrial in one part, it is rural in another? I think of my own constituency, which has a very industrial north but a large farming population in the south. The same is true of both my neighbours.
      Mr. Anderson: But even where there are groupings of seven or eight seats the rural element, which is a portion of a constituency such as that of my hon. Friend, is tiny. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept the broad distinction between the great land mass of rural Wales, representing approximately one-third of the population and including the whole of North and Mid-Wales and a substantial part of West Wales, and the counties of Glamorgan and Gwent, which are in their ethos a heavily industrial structure, although clearly with rural parts.
      Sir Anthony Meyer: Will the hon. Gentleman entertain the further consideration that with four seats it will be virtually impossible to provide a result which will in any way reflect the balance of political forces in Wales? With five seats it would become easier to envisage a result which would reflect the political balance of the parties.
      Mr. Anderson: I have not followed through the political results; perhaps that is evidence of naivety and an indication of my objectivity in trying to deal with the allocation of seats. If the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) speaks in the debate, I hope he will expand that point as yet a further reason for increasing from four to five the allocation of seats to Wales.
      I think that this allocation could be achieved within the total of 81 seats which is, because of our international obligations, an immutable number. It is unrealistic to suggest that that number should be increased from 81 to 91, but reducing the English total from 66 to

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      65, which would not be noticed in the totality of English seats, would have considerable advantages for Wales.
      I hope that on the grounds of both justice and effectiveness of representation my hon. Friend the Minister will examine very seriously the arguments in favour of this modest increase in Welsh representation and will bring the matter back to the House at a later stage.
      Mr. Neil Marten: The hon. Member has not made the case for taking one seat away from England, a suggestion which he made rather casually. Surely his case should logically be to increase the overall number of seats from 81 to 82.
      Mr. Anderson: No. I have to accept, because of our international obligations, that the overall total for the United Kingdom has been established in conjunction with the seats allocated to our partners in the Community. That is the startting point. We have 81 seats, and the argument is about their allocation between different parts of the United Kingdom. Given the much larger number of English seats, there could be a reduction of one without a grave loss to England but with considerable advantage to Wales.
      Mr. D. E. Thomas: I wish to refer to Amendments Nos. 17, 21 and 51. First, however I should like to take up the point by the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) concerning our international obligations and the sacrosanct figure of 81.
      I would stress that in pressing the demand for parity with Northern Ireland, which is in our amendment in terms of representation in the European Parliament, we are not seeking to take seats away from other parts of the United Kingdom. I want to put it quite strongly to the Government that, in view of the developments towards Welsh and Scottish Assemblies, if that is still the Government's intention, they ought seriously to renegotiate—and this is a word which is not unfamiliar to the Labour Government in the context of the European Community—their commitment to a figure of 81, in view of the impending move towards greater democracy in Wales and, perhaps, to put it in those terms, possibly even faster towards a national democracy in Scotland. So I am
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      not pressing acceptance on behalf of Plaid Cymru of the argument that we must take this 81 as an immutable figure. I would put it to the Minister that this is, or at least should be, a negotiable figure.
      My general position on direct elections is well known inside and outside this Committee and I do not want to rehearse arguments I have put in other debates here and outside. I have been and am still totally opposed to the whole principle of direct elections. In my view they represent a drift towards pseudo-continental democracy, which means we shall create a system of false democracy that will raise false expectations and will be out of touch with the political realities that members of the European Parliament will be seeking to represent. Direct elections represent a drift towards a supranational European State to which, again, I am firmly opposed.
      If, however, we are to have direct elections, then, obviously, as a political party, Plaid Cymru will participate actively, and will hope to be represented within those direct elections and as a result of them.
      A crucial point for us, and the whole point of the amendment, is the basis of representation. As the hon. Member for Swansea, East has pointed out, the basic point is whether Wales is to have national representation within the Community. We have already heard some comparative figures about the numbers to be represented in various European States under the present system. I would remind the Committee of some of them. Denmark has 16 seats, which means that each European member in Denmark will represent 315,000 people. Earlier an hon. Member explained the special position of Luxembourg, each of whose members represents 60,000 people. In Ireland, one member represents 205,000. Under the present arrangement England, with 66 seats, will have one member per 514,000. Scotland is doing slightly better with one member for 470,000, and Northern Ireland is doing considerably better with one member per 344,000. These are quotations from the First Report of the Select Committee, in which the figures were given.
      Mr. John: From the 1977 electoral rolls, which we have, the figures show that Scotland will have one member per

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      473,000, England one per 516,000 and Wales one per 514,000. That is slightly at variance with what was said by the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid).
      Mr. Thomas: I am grateful to the Minister for those figures. I have computed mine from the 1977 register, where the figure is 511,000 for Wales. It is now 514,000, a difference of about 2,000 either way.
      Therefore, the position is that Wales is, within the context of this present situation, in a very unfavourable position compared with other full nation-States members of the Community, and this is an argument which, as the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) has said, is not going to go away. It is going to be a developing argument in Wales in the next 10 years, as we have now become full members of the Community, a decision we still regret and bitterly opposed at the time, but one taken by a majority of the Welsh people; but, as we become members of the Community, the argument about what kind of members we are to be will be one of the major international arguments in Wales, linked closely as it is to the whole devolution argument and to the status of government in Wales. I will not advance that tonight.
      I do not expect the Government will agree to full, nation status for Wales in terms of Community representation, but the Government should take a second look at the regional status on a head count basis, which they are now giving to Wales and Scotland. The head count concept is at variance both with what the Select Committee said, in its First Report on Direct Elections to the European Assembly, in paragraph 13, on page 72, where the Committee found
      "that any formulation should be such as to make it possible for the United Kingdom's allocation of seats to be large enough to provide representation for its component parts not significantly out of proportion to those of the smaller Member States (with the proviso that Luxembourg should be treated as a special case)."
      Thus, in the review discussions in the Select Committee there was the concept that component parts, which I take to mean component nations of a kingdom, should be represented in some degree in a
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      national as opposed to a regional head count. That has happened partly in the case of Northern Ireland but certainly not in the case of Wales.
      In evidence to the Select Committee this point was made by Plaid Cymru and also by the Farmers' Union of Wales which, as an agricultural union, is now very actively developing a European dimension, because the common agricultural policy is still the only common policy that the Community has which functions, and affects member States and individuals and industries directly. In its representations to the Select Committee the Farmers' Union of Wales said:
      "In so far as Wales is concerned, its identity as a nation in its own right should be borne in mind when drawing up plans for the number of constituencies necessary.
      Wales should have an allocation of seats on the same basis as other nations in the European Community. If Luxembourg is taken as an example… Wales should have 13 seats."
      The point being made by the Farmers' Union of Wales—which is not a front organisation for Plaid Cymru on any basis—as an organisation practically involved in European policy making and in the effect and impact of European policy on Wales, is that it feels strongly that the identity of Wales should be recognised. In the early days, back in 1974, the report of the study group of the European Movement, of which I was then a member, on direct elections to the European Parliament dealt with the whole question of what should be the basis of European representation, and this stated:
      "Were European political union already achieved and were it possible to ignore separate nations of Member States it would be logical to allocate Parliamentary seats strictly according to population".
      There is there a calculation of how this could be done, given an Assembly of the size of 505.
      It went on:
      "There are a number of reasons for believing that such an outcome would be politically unacceptable. First, it is impossible to ignore the fact that the Community is not—and may never be—a unitary state, but is rather a group of national sovereign states, bound together by treaty. From this point of view, the smaller states have a strict legal equality with the larger. This fact is recognised within the Community's institutions in the composition of the Council of Ministers; and it might be argued that there is therefore no need to take it into account again in the composition of the Parliament. There are, however, limits. The present

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      Parliamentary seats are allocated so as to reflect, but not to reflect exactly, the relative populations of the Member States, giving a weighting in favour of the smaller members."
      7.0 p.m.
      I want to argue that what is a principle in respect of the existing member States which originally signed the Treaty is also a principle that we should extend to nations which, within the Community already, are achieving the force of political status. Here, we should not take too structured a view of the Community; we should not take too stratified a view of the Community as it exists. Rather, we should see the Community not just as a community of the existing nation-States which signed the Treaty, but as a flexible community, not only in its external relations in the annexation of new members, but also within itself. In other words, when part of the Community itself opts for national status, whether it is a limited status, as in the case of the Welsh Assembly proposals, or a more substantial one, as in the case of the policy of Plaid Cymru—that of having full national status for Wales—the Community should recognise that there are at Community level alternative ways of representation which should be allowed.
      That means having forms of direct access from emergent national groupings to the Community itself, and not merely working through the existing apparatus of the nation-Sate. That is a very important basic principle in relation to how the Community is to develop, whether it is to be solely a conglomerate of existing nation-States, or whether it can be flexible enough to accommodate the rights of other emerging national communities.
      We clearly see that the Government will not accept the increased number of seats that we and the Scottish National Party propose, but I put it to the Government that they should tell their Community partners that there must be a new look at the allocation of seats to the United Kingdom in view of the changes that are taking place here.
      Looking, perhaps, to the membership of Spain, this argument will be taken much further when the emerging Governments of the Basque country and Catalonia demand access to the Community. This problem of how we get new nations within the structure of the
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      Community will be with us throughout the development of the Community.
      Why do we believe that national representation for Wales is essential? It is because we have seen what national representation can mean for the Irish Republic. I hope that I will not be out of order in mentioning this, Mr. Murton, but I do represent 650,000 sheep. Recently, the Irish Republic Government negotiated effectively with the French Government a deal whereby Irish lamb was exported to France. Wales, as a major lamb producer, exports 15 per cent. of its lamb production to the Community; yet, because Wales is not a full member of the Community, and, therefore, unable to press, along with Ireland, for a Community sheep regime and access for Welsh lamb to Continental markets, we have been discriminated against. This is why organisations such as the Farmers' Union of Wales want direct representation in the Community at all levels so that we can press for adequate safeguards for our industries.
      We shall not press this issue to a Division tonight, as the Government will, no doubt, be relieved to hear, but we reserve the right to renegotiate this figure as soon as we have a mandate from the Welsh people to do so.
      Mr. Jay: I was surprised to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) say that it was no good proposing any alteration in the figure of 81 seats for the United Kingdom because it had been decided already. It has not been decided already. All that has happened is that the British Government have entered into an international agreement and are recommending to the House of Commons that the agreement should be carried out. It is perfectly within the competence of the House to disagree with that recommendation. Perhaps my hon. Friend agrees with me about that.
      Mr. Anderson: It is within our competence to suggest 200, 300, 400 or 500 seats. My right hon. Friend may be legally correct, but I am talking about practicality. We have entered into a commitment. Any suggestion from us that our own numbers should be increased would have consequential effects on our partners. Therefore, the realistic position must be to assume that 81 is the overall

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      number and that we can debate the allocation within that.
      Mr. Jay: So, according to my hon. Friend, it is quite legal for us to discuss the figure but not realistic and practical to do anything about it. But I propose to do something about it by recommending this amendment myself. If the Committee were not competent to discuss this proposition, I am sure that you, Mr. Murton, would not permit us to discuss it. But, as we have already discussed the matter for the last hour or so, do not let us have any suggestion that my hon. Friend can lay down rules of order and, as it were, guillotine this discussion. If anyone is going to do that, I hope that it will be you, Mr. Murton. Quite clearly, you have not done so.
      The position is that the British Government have reached an agreement and referred it to the House of Commons, and the Committee is free to agree or not to agree as it pleases. If the Committee agreed to amendments which would raise the total number of United Kingdom seats from 81 to 89, the Government would simply have to go back to the Community and say "We have no authority now to reach an agreement on the basis of 81 seats. Either we reach it on the basis of 89, or for the moment no agreement can be reached." It is clear that that is the legal principle.
      That being so, it is with much pleasure as well as surprise, after all the debates on the Scotland Bill, that I find myself in almost total agreement with those who have spoken today for the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru. I hardly discovered any statement of theirs with which I was not in agreement, except perhaps a few sentences which included the words "nationhood" or "nation States". However, I shall not argue about that. To do so would take the debate much too wide, and no doubt we should not persuade one another.
      If we look not at these rather vague general concepts but at the figures, we find that Scotland and Wales on an arithmetical basis have a genuine grievance as against Denmark, Ireland and, even more, Luxembourg. No doubt it is not necessary in a democratic society to establish an absolute arithmetical identity between the number of persons represented by each Member in different parts
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      of the whole area, but the present disparities between the representation of Luxembourg, Denmark and Ireland on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other are too extreme to be defensible.
      There is another consideration. The EEC is a changing unit. We know that there are three more applicant nations—I think that we can call Greece, Spain and Portugal nations without causing too much controversy—which will be joining the Community in a few years, if not within a few months.
      All the figures—81, 89, 112 or whatever—are ephemeral and provisional. They are bound to be altered when three other nations of moderate size and population join the Community. Incidentally, that fact exposes the absurdity of our rushing through the Bill as though there were a desperate hurry to reach a target date on the basis of the precise numbers that we are discussing. We know that if the Bill goes through the whole constitution and all the numbers will have to be altered shortly anyway.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East looks as though he dissents from what I have said, but he cannot deny that there are three nations waiting to join.
      Mr. Anderson: But I can deny that the accession of those three nations need have any consequential effect on the total number of our seats and how their allocation is to be determined. The allocation of seats to those nations can be made on the same basis as the allocation to the United Kingdom.
      Mr. Jay: My hon. Friend takes a simple view of negotiations of this sort if he thinks that the problem can be solved merely by the addition of 50 seats to the size of the Assembly. It is clear that all the figures we are discussing are provisional. That being so, and as there are strong grounds for saying that Scotland and Wales will be under-represented, nationalist Members have made a strong case for serious amendment of the figures.
      Mr. Powell: Like the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), I find myself in unwonted and strictly temporary alliance with nationalist Members.
      Mr. John: Any port in a storm.
      Mr. Powell: Perhaps my alliance and its limitations may sufficiently appear as

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      what I have to say proceeds. There is no harm in taking note of an occasional overlap, even if it is accidental or paradoxical.
      The clause and the figures in it bring out the central and intolerable contradiction in the Bill and in the purpose to which it is directed. I entirely agree with the right hon. Member for Battersea, North that it is no mere legalism to say that we are entitled in this Committee to decide upon these figures. At the commencement of our proceedings in Committee, we established that we are not bound, in the case of this Bill, by the details of the decision of 20th September 1976—indeed, the Bill was deliberately drawn by the Government so that we would not be so bound.
      If the House decides that the figures, relative to one another or in total, were unsatisfactory, it is entitled to change them them as it was entitled to vote a week ago last Monday for a 7½ per cent. devaluation of the green pound. As on that occasion, the other Community countries would have to take account of the decision of this Committee and arrive at agreed adjustments among themselves in consequence.
      Let me come straight to the inherent contradiction to which I have referred. The whole assumption underlying the proposal for the direct election of representatives is that the electorate of the European Economic Community is being treated as a whole and that the people, directly and not through the medium of their respective national Governments, are to be represented in the Assembly or the Parliament of the EEC.
      7.15 p.m.
      If that were not so, there would be no point in direct elections. If it were still to be representation of constituent nations, it could be left to the decision of each member State how it arrived at the composition of its delegation or representation. Any move from delegations appointed by nations to representatives individually elected by popular constituencies on a popular vote, which, if the Treaty of Rome is ever to be obeyed, will sooner or later have to be based on the same electoral principles, is a wholly different notion of what is represented in the Assembly.
      The Assembly thereby becomes the representation of the total population and
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      the total electorate, as one, of the EEC—a potent expression of the will towards political union which lies behind the fact that Article 138 is in the Treaty of Rome.
      I turn to the terminology of the decision of 20th September 1976. Article 1 reads:
      "The representatives in the Assembly of the peoples of the States brought together in the Community shall be elected by direct universal suffrage."
      That is interesting terminology on which it is worth spending a few moments of reflection. The "representatives in the Assembly" are not representatives of the States. That concept is being left behind. They are "representatives of the peoples of the States brought together in the Community." From the point of view of those who framed the decision, the peoples of the respective States are collectively to elect their representatives and thus produce an Assembly which bears the same relationship to the total electorate of the Community as, for example, this Assembly bears to the total electorate of the United Kingdom.
      If that were so, the principle of direct, universal suffrage would have an inevitaable, clear and direct implication, namely, that there should be approximate equality in the constituencies and that the electoral quotas should be—I do not say, pednatically equal—but broadly similar throughout the Community of peoples, so that one vote should have one value. That is the only possible implication and the only logically acceptable implication of the proposal that members of the Assembly shall be directly elected by universal franchise.
      However, if we look at the allocation of seats in the next article, we discover all the old skulduggery and log-rolling that has gone on among the respective member nations. The big four have 81 seats each—jacked up from an original 80 in order that one of the nations might fit in a special arrangement for a remote province of that nation.
      The rest have deliberate weightings on the ground that the fact that they are nation States has to be recognised and they are not to be treated in this allocation as provinces of commensurate size in a Community—and this is where there is no shame in my agreeing with the views of the Scottish and Welsh nationalists.

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      Those countries are treated as nations in their own right. They are given their own individual, apportioned allocation and weighting. Of course, the extreme case is Luxembourg, which would rate only a fraction of a Member in an Assembly of this size if the allocation were on the basis of population. I am reminded of the days when the proposal was eagerly canvassed that Gibraltar might be represented in the House. I remember the Gibraltarian representatives coming to a Conservative Party committee and putting forward their plea that the desire of Gibraltar to be permanently associated with the United Kingdom should be expressed by Gibraltar being represented in the United Kingdom Parliament.
      I remember that I was naughty enough to intervene by saying that, as Member at that time for Wolverhampton, South-West, I supported the proposal, and that as Wolverhampton, South-West was a few thousand electors short of the average quota I would be quite willing to accept the addition of Gibraltar, thus making a single constituency of Wolverhampton, South-West and Gibraltar. That would have been the position of Luxembourg if the Community were being consistent about what it is doing, if this were to be a genuine representation of the peoples of the Community, of the single electorate which has been brought into one mass by the combination of these nation States.
      Mr. John: Is it any more logical for the right hon. Gentleman to say that the implication of direct elections must mean a numerical equality—
      Mr. Powell: Approximately.
      Mr. John:—approximately, between the nations? Does that not fall down upon the very point that in the nations represented within this Parliament there is an inequality, which lasts, between 100,000 electors in some places and 22,000 in the Western Isles, so that even within a national Parliament there can be great disparities in representation?
      Mr. Powell: Yes, and if we were to have the allocation of seats to the different provinces of the Community, to the different slabs of the Community, determined on the kind of criteria on which we justify the higher representation in this
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      place and the lower electoral quota of Wales and Scotland, my argument would fall to the ground. But that is not what has happened. What has happened is that we have set out from block figures which represent the claim of nations, as nations, the respective weight of these nations inside the Community. Having been given their respective quotas, they are told that their electorates can scrabble for them internally as they please. That is what we are concerned with.
      Therefore, the whole structure is illogical. It is in fact transitional. It is a sign that the Community has not yet wholly outgrown the nation States but that it is deliberately moving, by the alteration in the nature of its representative Assembly, to a form and a concept which supersedes the nation States. The cause of the complaint of the national parties arises from that incompatibility between the two views of what the Community is about which is dramatically represented by the inconsistency between direct election under Article 1 and the numbers allocated under Article 2.
      Therefore, in the concluding section of my remarks I proceed to consider which way the transition is going. If I thought that it was moving in the direction of representation of the nation States—to use the words of the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the first day, as yet innocent of guillotine, of this Committee stage, the "independent and sovereign" nation States—I would not be taking the trouble to take part in any Division or any proceedings whatever which might contribute to securing the defeat of the Bill.
      But manifestly that is not so. Manifestly we are going in the opposite direction. We take an Assembly, which at present is composed of those whom the respective nations and their representative bodies have sent as delegates, so to speak, to a conference, to the Assembly of the Community, and we convert it into a semi-Parliament, a simulacrum or pretence of being a directly elected Assembly representing the peoples of the Community.
      There is no doubt about the direction in which we are going. We are going away from the nation States, independent and sovereign, and towards an amalgam, a single State or super-State with its

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      characteristic Parliament directly elected by universal suffrage. We have not got there yet. But those who approve this measure are approving that direction in which they want to go. Some hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have been candid enough to admit that.
      Therefore, in considering the amendments, we are taking note of the fact that the caravan of the Community is on the move. It is moving away from independent and sovereign nation States towards a single super-State with the appurtenances of a super-State. The tractive power by which it is proceeding—I see a smile on the face of the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes). He is wondering what sort of tractive power a caravan ought to have. Camel power, I suppose—the tractive power for this movement is precisely direct election.
      Once we accept the principle of direct election as the means of composing the Assembly of the EEC, we thereby logically commit ourselves to the movement from the independent and sovereign nation State to the West European super-State. At each subsequent step—we shall be considering some of those steps later this evening, when we look at the new clause that the Government have obligingly cobbled up and so fortunately obtained a space for inside the guillotine programme—we shall be told "But, of course, this was implicit in what you did. Why were you voting for direct elections if you did not want a direct representation of the electorate?"
      It will be no good for us then to recur to the proceedings on 2nd February 1978. It will be futile for us to say "Ah, yes, but you should consult Hansard. There, at about 7.30 of the clock in the evening, you will find the right hon. Member for Down, South pointing out that there was an inconsistency and a contradiction, and that while the method of election was that appropriate to a super-State, the numbers being elected were those appropriate to a collocation of the existing sovereign nations."
      It will not be as easy as that. It will be the principle of direct election, which is all that the Bill is really about, which will take us on from stage to stage until we arrive at the destination towards which the Bill is pointing and at which perhaps not many people in the House of Com
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      mons or the country consciously intend to arrive. But, then, they have not, most of them, consciously wanted to get where we are at present. They have not consciously thought that in 1977–78 they would have a Bill for direct elections. Only two or three years ago they were told that that was in the remote future.
      There is a great deal connected with the Common Market which has suddenly come, like a zooming camera, from the remote and theoretical future into a close-up. We had better take precautions while we still can—that is, while this Bill, guillotine or no guillotine, is still within our control. We had better be stirred to do so by the considerations put before us by the representatives of the national parties and the tell-tale contradiction and absurdity in the conflict between the method of election and the irrelevant numbers which are to be elected.
      7.30 p.m.
      Mr. Douglas Henderson: You have this week, and now tonight, Mr. Murton, had to listen to the whole question of the Scottish relationship both with this Parliament and with the Parliament in the EEC. I dare say that by now you are something of an expert on Scotland's rights and justifications. I believe it unhappily to be the case that you are not to return to the House of Commons after the next election. If that is so, I have no doubt that a great deal of consultancy work will be available to you in explaining to people the exact nature of the problem and the exact nature of the problem and the arguments which are deployed.
      The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), who is, as he said, in an unusual position of agreement with those of us on the Scottish National Party Bench on this issue, made a crucial and fundamental point about the clause. If it were true that we were talking of a one-Europe situation, where national boundaries had no meaning, no purpose and no significance in any political sense, it would indeed be quite easy to have seats such as South-West Pyrenees, North-West this, and so on—seats which had no relevance to the national communities in which they were placed but which followed some rationale of electoral control and electoral procedure laid down in a fair and objective way from the

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      centre, so that everyone within the Community had a vote of equal strength and significance. But that is not so.
      I do not take the right hon. Gentleman's pessimistic view in this matter. I still believe that the underlying forces within Europe are essentially those who believe in, if they accept it at all, a Europe des patries, and that the concept of the nation is still the most crucial concept, even within the EEC as we see it today. For that reason, there is no rationale, no democratice rationale in the pure sense, underlying the allocation of seats. There is, as always, a settlement and negotiation of national interest between the different countries concerned in order to find a formula.
      It was rather dense and insensitive of the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) to keep harping on about the question of Luxembourg, which is of little relevance to what we are discussing in relation to Scottish and Welsh representation. When we look at the question from Scotland or Wales, it is natural for us to consider it in relation to countries of similar size. It cannot be disputed that the country of similar size to Scotland in the Community is Denmark.
      We ask ourselves why Denmark has 16 seats and Scotland eight. I hope that it is not the Government's view, or that they will repudiate it if it is, that it is because of a qualitative assessment of the better educational standards or moral character of the Danes as compared with the Scots. The real reason is that Scotland is being considered in this matter not as a nation but as a province of another country.
      I put the point with greater force than my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) did earlier, when he referred to Scotland's distinctive system of law. There is no other State within the Community with two distinctive systems of law. If we consider the concept of the State as a judicial branch, an executive branch and a legislative branch, we can stay that with one-third of those branches at least—the judicial branch—Scotland is part way to being a State. As we are to have executive and legislative branches, we are well on the way to being a State in those terms as well.
      Scotland's special position in the Community because of our separate legal sys
      780
      tem is recognised. There is a Scottish judge on the European Court. It is appropriate that he should be there, because he is accustomed to European concepts of law, by which I mean the civilised concepts of law. Our identity is already taken for granted in that situation.
      The object of the amendment is that the number of United Kingdom seats should be increased from 81 to 89 in order that Scotland may be given parity with Denmark. The Minister will no doubt reply that, as we heard from his hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East, of courses that cannot be, because Scotland does not have the legal persona to justify 16 seats. But even if we cannot have the United Kingdom representation increased to 89, the way in which the United Kingdom treats Scotland in this place and on the number of seats in the European Parliament will be noted by the people of Scotland.
      There are right hon. and hon. Members who brag to us about the advantages of union, who tell us what a wonderful thing it is that we are part of the union here. The Government must reflect that one of the prices of that union is that Scotland should be given bigger representation, nearer the Danish model, than eight seats. If the union is of overall importance to right hon. and hon. Members, they should consider the sacrifice that they may have to make in giving up their seats to bring Scotland up to parity with those countries with which it can rightly be compared.
      The Minister may well argue that we are not a separate State. But if we are not treated in the light of our existence as a nation, that will tell in Scotland. If the rest of the nations in this kingdom are not prepared to move to recognise us as a nation, in the number of seats given in the European Parliament, more and more people in Scotland will say "The sooner we get independence and have our separate representation, the better".
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing: Not so long ago, as a member of the European Parliament delegation from the United Kingdom, I found that the much advertised slogan for the year, and a very good slogan, was "A future for our past". That was because it was European Architectural Heritage Year. That slogan perhaps has a message for us in this debate

      781
      because, whatever we think of the European Community, whether we were for or against entering, it is nothing if it does not recognise all the cultures of all the peoples of Europe, which is one of the bastions of democracy in a world where all too often democracy is not very noticeable.
      We in Scotland have a distinctive culture. Much has been said about the law, and as a lawyer I shall not go over that ground. We believe that we have made a contribution to mankind out of all proportion to our size. In Scottish schools we were always told of all the things we had invented or discovered. It was an Englishman, Dr. Johnson, who paid tribute to us when he said that we had made an enormous contribution, out of all proportion to our size, to the thought of mankind. He was not always very kind to the Scots, but he was kind on that one. I suppose that he was kind because he was merely speaking in accordance with the facts.
      The European Parliament is not a Parliament of confrontation where we sit at two swords' length, but a hemicycle. It is flexible in many ways. It is 20 years old and, rightly or wrongly, it is seeking more powers. It may get them. At present it has rather strange and limited powers. It can dismiss the whole Commission and dismiss the whole budget, but these powers are never used. In effect, it might as well have no powers, but it is seeking more powers. It is not a Parliament of confrontation, and in a certain sense it is not a Parliament at all, but my party's interests and rights are given a remarkably fair hearing.
      I was interested when the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said that the European Parliament is moving against the independent sovereign State. Personally, I am against economic and monetary union. I should deplore that. I do not see any way of preserving the cultures within Europe if we are to move to such a union.
      Mr. Powell: Quite right.
      Mrs. Ewing: We are in agreement.
      The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the danger of moving away from the independent sovereign State. However, last Wednesday the House of Commons denied the right of a people—that is the
      782
      word that has been used—ever to become a sovereign State, ever to have the right to which the United Nations Charter commits the United Kingdom to recognising—namely, self-determination. That was what the House of Commons did last Wednesday.
      Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Not at all.
      Mrs. Ewing: It changed the rules to make it almost impossible to achieve self-determination. The rules were rigged. The former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson), who was Prime Minister when I first entered the House, said "One will do." The right hon. Gentleman was saying that a majority of one would do—namely, one of the votes cast. I have taken the trouble to read the debates, and that is how Cyprus, Nigeria and other States achieved their self-determination. However, last Wednesday the House of Commons decided that one of the votes cast is not sufficient to enable the people of Scotland to realise their aspiration. It has been decided that 40 per cent. of the total electorate in Scotland will have to vote in favour. Even the dead are to be included.
      I agree with the right hon. Member for Down, South about the danger of moving away from an independent sovereign State. If the right hon. Gentleman is criticising the European Parliament for its lack of recognition of cultures, it must be said that there is more recognition of the culture and individual contribution of Scotland in that forum than in the House of Commons. I am sorry to have to say that.
      Mr. Heffer: Rubbish!
      Mrs. Ewing: In 1968 my party visited the Commission as an interested body to observe and to ask questions. The members of my party were fortunate to meet a Commissioner. We met senior civil servants engaged in all the various subjects in which we were interested. After a rather unsuccessful meeting, from their point of view, when we were not convinced that it was a good set-up to join, a senior civil servant said "You have to have faith". We asked, "How can we have faith in a body that does not know anything about us and does not even visit Scotland? It is a body that is to make

      783
      decisions that will affect Scotland without having any understanding of the problems."
      It was put to us, "Have you never thought that in this set of institutions there is a glorious new role for Scotland?" The head of the civil service at the time said "Scotland can be the leader of the downtrodden regions of Europe." He was surprised when my delegation burst into laughter. He could not understand what he had said wrong. He thought that he was paying us a compliment. We do not regard that sort of comment as a compliment. We are not a region. We are downtrodden but we are not a region. That is where we have to part company.
      7.45 p.m.
      The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said that the hub of the matter is nationhood, but he said that he would not go into that. The hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) spoke of the claim of Wales to be a nation. I hope that he is not a Welshman. If he is, it is a strange thing to have said. However, that is what he is on record as saying. If I were a Welshman, I would rather not be that sort of Welshman.
      The hub of the amendment is nationhood. We have had many definitions of a nation, and I shall not repeat the points that have been well made by my hon. Friends the Members for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Henderson) and Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid).
      There is no point in the House of Commons pretending that Scotland is the same as Yorkshire. That will not do. The "Yorkshire" argument is surely buried for ever. It should be stone cold dead in the market place. If it told the fans going to Argentina that they were not members of a nation, the Committee would get an answer that it might not like. The answer might not be in parliamentary language. Tell them that they are not members of a nation, and they will soon say that they are a nation and that they come from all the various "Yorkshires" of Scotland, from the regions of Scotland, which is an interesting and varied nation with all manner of places within it, all with their own cultures. It is a nation that has had a com
      784
      mon cause for longer than any nation in Western Europe.
      It was in the Dark Ages that culture was saved by the Celtic West, by Ireland, Wales and Scotland. It was only in the West, in the Celtic nations, that culture survived during the Dark Ages. However, Members from Scotland have to come to the House of Commons to be in some ways constantly insulted by hearing it argued that it is not a fact that Scotland is a nation.
      There are not many who are brave enough to say that now, but when I first came to this place it was said daily. In fact, "England" was used as well as "Britain". It was used as if it were the same thing. When I discovered that hon. Members went to Hansard and changed that reference, or that Hansard changed it for them, I had to go to Hansard to say "The hon. Gentleman said 'England'. If he said 'England', it should go in the record as that. That is what he thinks it is, so that is what should go in the record." That is how the nation of Scotland has been treated in the House of Commons, as has the nation of Wales.
      As I have said, the European Parliament is about 20 years old. I campaigned vehemently against entering the Common Market. I did so on platforms throughout Scotland and in England. However, rightly or wrongly, the vote in Scotland in favour was 57 per cent. That was the percentage of the votes cast to make an extraordinary constitutional change. That percentage of the votes cast was sufficient. That brings us back to last Wednesday's vote. We had 57 per cent. in favour and, as we are democrats, unlike those who voted against the aspiration of the people of Scotland last Wednesday, we have accepted the fact that we are at present in the Common Market. The European Parliament is a forum where eight Members will not suffice to represent the interests of the distinctive culture of Scotland.
      Ireland and Denmark are two of the smaller member States. How do they fare? They have a larger representation than Scotland is proposed to have. I shall not go over the numbers argument but instead will give a practical example. The Irish have had a good deal for their beef. That is fairly satisfactory. The Welsh have obtained a satisfactory deal

      785
      for their sheepmeat. They had a good deal in respect of the green pound. What about the Danes? The Fisheries Commissioner is a Dane. The Danes are the pirates of the North Sea. They are despoiling one of the largest sources of protein in the world. They are the baddies of fishermen, yet they are getting a good deal for their fishermen. But the Scottish fishermen, whose grounds are part of the largest fishpond in the world, are getting a rotten deal. These are the facts. In the light of the facts, I suggest that Scotland must get a proper deal.
      Why is eight immutable? It is silly to suggest that it is. There is no reason for that to be so. Why cannot Britain say "In our case 81 will not do. We have a rather special State comprised of several nations, and that entitles us to greater representation"? If that means that the Germans will say that Bavaria has a special position, that the French will say that the Bretons have a special position or that the Italians will say that the Sicilians have a special position, that matter should be considered. But if it means that Spain, if it enters the Common Market, has to say that the Catalans and the Basques have a special position, that means a bigger rather than a smaller Parliament.
      Therefore, I have great pleasure in supporting the amendment.
      Mr. Hurd: The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) showed that the allocation of seats inside the Community is a compromise between two concepts of Europe. But it is characteristic of him that, the moment he detects a compromise, he denounces it. I think that it is an ingenious compromise that reflects accurately the balance of power and thought within the Community between the nation States and the aspiration of European unity.
      The arguments in support of the amendments regarding the distribution of seats inside the Community are logical coming from the nationalists. If one believes that Scotland and Wales are, in essence, independent States and that legal recognition should follow, it is logical to go into the argument about Denmark and Luxembourg.
      The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) wants to destroy the Bill, so he has fun and expresses a certain
      786
      logic of his own. For the nationalists this is a logical argument, but for anyone who believes that Scotland, Wales and, indeed, Northern Ireland are part of the United Kingdom, comparisons with Denmark and Luxembourg fall. They have no validity of any kind. Therefore, this is strictly a nationalist argument. It is an argument that appeals to those who believe that Scotland and Wales should be independent countries, but it will not have any logical appeal to anyone else, including, I suspect, the majority of those who live in Scotland and Wales.
      Mr. Jay: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that, if accepted, the amendment will increase the representation of the whole of the United Kingdom?
      Mr. Hurd: That is precisely why I use the word "destructive" or "wrecking" to describe the amendment, because that would be its impact if it were carried.
      The Select Committee discussed this matter in great detail. It is no easy matter to distribute 81 seats. The Select Committee decided that the right approach was the mathematical approach. It rounded the figures in such a way that Scotland markedly, Northern Ireland markedly and Wales only slightly are in a better position than England in the relationship between electors and the number of representatives.
      Mr. Anderson: The figure was rounded down for Wales.
      Mr. Hurd: According to the latest figures, as the Minister confirmed, Wales is in a slightly more favourable position than England. We have not detected that more favourable position for Wales from some of the speeches to which we have listened. The Select Committee's proposals and the Government's proposals based on the Select Committee's report put all three—Wales, I agree, only by a hair's breadth—in a more favourable position than other component parts of the United Kingdom. That position should be recognised, but it has not been mentioned or recognised so far.
      For those reasons, although this is a tortuous and difficult subject, the Conservative Opposition believe that the Select Committee's recommendations are on balance the best way through this labyrinth. We think that the Government were right, on the whole, to accept

      787
      those recommendations and to incorporate them in this part of the Bill. Therefore we have no sympathy with the amendments.
      Mr. John: There are three groups of amendments which have in common a change in the number of seats and their distribution. But, that said, there is no agreement between them. There is no agreement on how many seats are wanted for the United Kingdom or on how they should be distributed.
      I am sorry that the sponsors of the Scottish National Party's amendment and of Plaid Cymru's amendment are not in their places.
      Mr. Reid: I am.
      Mr. John: I am sorry. But certainly the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) is not present.
      The purpose of argument is to obtain a response, in however short a time is left, to the debate.
      The Scottish National Party has rightly said that it has taken the Denmark formula as the basis of comparison for representation. It is not, as I indicated earlier, and as the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) said, that one Scottish Member represents 600,000 people. I have already dealt with the numbers, but I propose to repeat them for the benefit of those who were not present or who wish to take a note of them.
      In Northern Ireland, one seat is elected by 344,000 electors. In Scotland, one seat is elected by 473,000 electors. In Wales, one seat is elected by 514,000 electors. In England, one seat is elected by 516,000 electors.
      If we take the Denmark benchmark, we are talking about it not merely for Scotland, but for the whole Community, to be logical and fair. But the amendment does not do that. The upshot of such an amendment, extended throughout the Community, would mean an Assembly of 850 seats.
      Plaid Cymru's amendment would give 10 more seats—I see that the hon. Member for Merioneth has now resumed his place—back to the United Kingdom, but would allocate the whole of them to
      788
      Wales to give 14 seats compared with the four in the Bill.
      The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said that, in law, we could tell the Community that, as a result of the debate, it would have to renegotiate.
      There is no agreement between the amendments as to the basis on which that should be done. Therefore, we cannot logically accept either of the amendments. It is odd that these two great allies—the SNP and Plaid Cymru—cannot agree to look after each other's interests in mutual amendments.
      The Irish Republic mark, which is the basis of Plaid Cymru's amendment, would create an Assembly, if translated throughout the Community, of more than 1,300 seats. We must consider whether we want 1,300 representatives going to the Assembly.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) asked "Why be satisfied with that? Why not have one Member to every 34,000 electors, as in Luxembourg?". In that event we would have an Assembly of about 5,700 members. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I did not expect that to get quite the approbation that it did. That shows the inherent impossibility of the creations that the nationalists want.
      I accept Wales and Scotland as nations. However, I do not accept them as nation States. People can form nations without those nations being nation States. The confusion in this matter has led to a lot of argument with the nationalists over their misconceptions.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East asked, why not have one more seat for Wales? He said that it would mean taking only one more seat for England. But, as has been said, one and half seats have already been taken from England on a strictly numerical proportion to round up in Scotland and Northern Ireland to take account of their special responsibilties. I am an unlikely defender of English nationalism, but I should be unwilling to take from England and further to destroy the basis of justice to make special provision in this instance.
      The basis arrived at by the Select Committee may not be pretty or logically symmetrical, but it has the effect of wreaking substantial justice between

      789
      different parts of the United Kingdom. I do not believe in perpetrating injustice by elevating a part of the country in which I happen to live at the expense of others. I believe that we should try to bring about substantial justice.
      Therefore, I believe that the clause as drafted represents the best that can be achieved, and, therefore, I cannot advise the Committee to accept these proposals. I cannot accept the logic of the argument which has been made that if we throw out these provisions we shall have to
      renegotiate. There is no basis in the three amendments on which we could renegotiate, and there is no common—
      It being Eight o'clock, THE CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Order [26th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 47, Noes 132.

      Division No. 94]

      AYES

      [.0 p.m.

      Atkinson, Norman

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Bell, Ronald

      Henderson, Douglas

      Reid, George

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Body, Richard

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Kerr, Russell

      Short, Mrs Renee (Wolv NE)

      Budgen, Nick

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Carson, John

      Lee, John

      Spearing, Nigel

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      McCusker, H.

      Stoddart, David

      Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

      Madden, Max

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Crowther Stan (Rotherham)

      Marten, Neil

      Thompson, George

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Maynard, Mist Joan

      Torney, Tom

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Moate, Roger

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Molloy, William

      Flannery, Martin

      Molyneaux, James

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Ovenden, John

      Mrs. Winifred Ewing and

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Mr. D. E. Thomas

      NOES

      Anderson, Donald

      George, Bruce

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Nott, John

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Golding, John

      Ogden, Eric

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

      Graham, Ted

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Bates, Alf

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Parker, John

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Penhaligon, David

      Boardman, H.

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central File)

      Perry, Ernest

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Hardy, Peter

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Radice, Giles

      Boyden, James (Bish Auc)

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Rathbone, Tim

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Horam, John

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Carlisle, Mark

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

      Carter, Ray

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Roper, John

      Cartwright, John

      Hunter, Adam

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Hurd, Douglas

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Clarke, Kennen (Rushcliffe)

      John, Brynmor

      Sandelson, Neville

      Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Sever, John

      Cohen, Stanley

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

      Coleman, Donald

      Judd, Frank

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Sims, Roger

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Kimball, Marcus

      Snape, Peter

      Crouch, David

      Lamborn, Harry

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Lamond, James

      Stallard, A. W.

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Le Merchant, Spencer

      Stanley, John

      Doig, Peter

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Steel, Rt Hon David

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lever, Rt Hon Harold

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lipton, Marcus

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Dykes, Hugh

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Strang, Gavin

      English, Michael

      McCartney, Hugh

      Surmmerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Eyre, Reginald

      Mallalieu, J. P. W.

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Tinn, James

      FooKes, Miss Janet

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Forman, Nigel

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Ward, Michael

      Freud, Clement

      Moyle, Roland

      Watkins, David

      Watkinson, John

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Woodall, Alec

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Woof, Robert

      Mr. Joseph Harper.

      Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

      Question accordingly negatived.
      The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Eight o'clock.
      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 122, Noes 47.

      Division No. 951

      AYES

      [8.11 p.m.

      Anderson, Donald

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Penhaligon, David

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Perry, Ernest

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Radice, Giles

      Awdry, Daniel

      Hardy, Peter

      Rathbone, Tim

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Harper, Joseph

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Horam, John

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Roper, John

      Boardman, H.

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Hunter, Adam

      Sandelson, Neville

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Hurd, Douglas

      Sever, John

      Brooke, Peter

      John, Brynmor

      Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Sims, Roger

      Carlisle, Mark

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Carter, Ray

      Judd, Frank

      Snape, Peter

      Cartwright, John

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Chalker Mrs Lynoa

      Kellott-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Sproat, Iain

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Stallard, A. W.

      Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

      Lamont, Norman

      Stanley, John

      Coleman, Donald

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Steel, Rt Hon David

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Lever, Rt Hon Harold

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Strang, Gavin

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Surmmerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Doig, Peter

      McCartney, Hugh

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Dykes, Hugh

      Mallalieu, J. P. W.

      Tinn, James

      English, Michael

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Ward, Michael

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Watkins, David

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Watkinson, John

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Forman, Nigel

      Moyle, Roland

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Woodall, Alec

      Freud, Clement

      Nott, John

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Ogden, Eric

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Golding, John

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Mr Ted Graham and Mr Alf Bates

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Parker, John

      NOES

      Atkinson, Norman

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Bell, Ronald

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)

      Body, Richard

      Kerr, Russell

      Skinner, Dennis

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Kinnock, Neil

      Spearing, Nigel

      Buchan, Norman

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Stoddart, David

      Budgen, Nick

      Lee, John

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Carson, John

      McCusker, H.

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Madden, Max

      Thompson, George

      Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

      Marten, Neil

      Torney, Tom

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      Maynard, Miss Joan

      Welsh, Andrew

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Molyneaux, James

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      Ovenden, John

      Woof, Robert

      Flannery, Martin

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Reid, George

      Mr John Ellis and Mr Roger Moate

      Henderson, Douglas

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    New Clause 8

      PARLIAMENTARY APPROVAL OF TREATIES INCREASING ASSEMBLY'S POWERS
      '.—(1) No treaty which provides for any increase in the powers of the Assembly shall be ratified by the United Kingdom unless it has been approved by an Act of Parliament.
      (2) In this section "treaty" includes any international agreement, and any protocol or annex to a treaty or international agreement'.—[Dr. Owen.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. David Owen): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      The Chairman: With this we may take the following:
      Amendment (a) to the new clause, at end add—
      '(2) For the avoidance of doubts, the interpretation of the provisions of this Clause shall rest exclusively with the Courts of the United Kingdom, from whom no appeal shall lie on any matter relating thereto whatsoever to the Court of the Community or Courts outside the United Kingdom.'
      New Clause 1—Variations in powers, &c., of Assembly—
      'Notwithstanding any provisions of the European Communities Act 1972 this Act shall cease to have effect if any variation or increase in the powers, rules or practices of the Assembly or any change in the constitution, rules or practices of the European Communities whether proposed or carried through under the terms and provisions of the Treaties of Paris and Rome or by any persons or organisations acting through or under these provisions or otherwise does not receive the express approval of Parliament prior to their passing or taking effect.'
      Amendment (a) to New Clause 1, after 'Parliament', insert:
      'voting by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the Members present and voting'.
      Dr. Owen: I introduce the new clause in fulfilment of the undertaking that I gave to the Committee during the debate on Clause 1 on 1st December that at a later stage of the Bill's consideration the Government would introduce a new clause relating to parliamentary approval of treaties increasing the powers of the European Assembly, and that in drafting the clause the Government would take into account the views expressed by the Committee during the debate.
      794
      That debate, and the earlier debate on Second Reading on 24th November, revealed the continuing anxiety of many hon. Members that direct elections mean movement towards federalism inside the Community, and that it might be followed by other moves whereby the powers of the House of Commons would be eroded through the extension of those of the European Assembly without there being adequate consideration of the issues in Parliament and without Parliament having the full opportunity of examining any such change.
      The Government's attitude to federalism and the powers of the European Assembly was made clear in the letter from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the general secretary of the Labour Party on 30th September last year, from which I quoted during our earlier debate. The Prime Minister stated that the Government had never accepted that the Community should develop into federation. They were determined to uphold the rights of national Governments and Parliaments. The Prime Minister also declared the Government's intent that future change in the powers of the European Assembly should be approved by Act of Parliament rather than by affirmative order.
      I pay tribute to the fact that during the debate on Second Reading on 24th November the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) confirmed on behalf of the Opposition that it was unthinkable that any increase in the powers of the European Assembly at the expense of national Governments or Parliaments could be approved except by Act of Parliament.
      It is worth looking at the existing powers of the Assembly—
      Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman has referred to his undertaking to table a new clause to cover the question of any extension of the powers of the European Parliament at the expense of the legislative powers of this Parliament. Why is it that the new clause has gone far beyond that undertaking and covers any increase in the powers of the European Parliament, even if that increase in no way impinges upon the powers of this place? Does that mean that any increase in the powers of the European Parliament, however trivial

      795
      —and even if it in no way conflicts with or takes away from any powers of the House—will involve the production of a fresh Act of Parliament so that this country may ratify it?
      Dr. Owen: It means that no treaty providing for an increase in the powers of the Assembly shall be ratified by the United Kingdom unless it has been approved by an Act of Parliament. The relevant words in the new clause are that
      "'treaty' includes any international agreement, and any protocol or annex to a treaty or international agreement".
      I think that the hon. Gentleman is asking whether this infringes the legislative power of the House of Commons. It is extremely difficult to draw the line or to have a clear-cut line. Unless we had drafted the clause in this way, making it clear that it applies to treaties in the broader sense, we should have had endless arguments whether the legislative power of the House of Commons had been infringed, in the sense that the House gives power to Ministers to make decisions on its behalf. I think it would be argued back that that is, in effect, an erosion of the powers of the House if we exclude from its ambit the discretionary power that the House vests in Ministers.
      Effectively, Ministers are answerable to the House of Commons, and by making the new clause wider I think it is more in keeping with the debate which took place in the House. The Government promised that they would listen to the debate. I do not think that the new clause infringes the development of the institutions of the Community in a way which does not involve an actual increase of powers. I think it is a clear definition.
      If I may go on to explain—
      Mr. Marten: Would the definition include a proposed regulation? If it has taken the right hon. Gentleman's Department seven or eight weeks to draft the new clause and bring it forward, what is his comment on the fact that we have only three and a half hours in which to discuss it?
      Dr. Owen: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this whole issue has been discussed very extensively. A large number of points will no doubt be made in the debate, and there will be ample time for points to be answered. I must
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      say that I was hoping for the acclamation of hon. Members and a general feeling that we had listened to all the points and taken account of them.
      8.30 p.m.
      I should like to describe the powers of the European Assembly. They are very circumscribed. The functions of the Assembly are to deliver opinions to the Council of Ministers on proposed Community legislation, to hammer out the Community budget with the Council, and to exert some scrutiny over the Commission. It is a legal requirement for most Council legislation that the Assembly be consulted, and in practice it is consulted on many matters not expressly stipulated in the treaties. The consultation takes place when the Commission submits draft proposals for legislation to the Council. The Council requests an opinion from the Assembly and may take it into account. The Council is, however, under no obligation to do so.
      In the budgetary area, an important new relationship between the institutions was established by the Treaty of 1970 which gave the Assembly the power formally to adopt the annual budget. Since then, the Council and Assembly together have constituted the "budgetary authority" of the Communities. The treaty of 22nd July 1975 made some minor adjustments to procedure in the light of experience of the new system, but that treaty caused considerable controversy in the House.
      An intricate dialogue between the Council and Assembly, which my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) characterised on one occasion as a "ping pong match", now takes place before the budget is finalised. On items of "obligatory expenditure" which account for some 70 per cent. of the budget and are largely connected with the CAP, the Assembly can propose modifications but the Council can overrule these modifications.
      On items of non-obligatory expenditure, the Assembly has a freer hand in that, provided it does not exceed an independently determined maximum ceiling, it can make its amendments stick. The Assembly can also reject the budget in its entirety, but the force of this weapon is blunted by the fact that the treaty provides that expenditure can continue in

      797
      this event at the previous year's level, and also by the fact that the Council can still authorise certain increases in such a situation. This means that rejection of the budget would not bring the Community to a shuddering halt but merely cut the level of expenditure. It is the Assembly which is the main source of pressure inside the Community for increased expenditure on new programmes so that holding back expenditure would be a weak and ineffective means of pressure on the Council.
      Finally, it is important to realise that the simple insertion of new provisions in the budget by the Assembly does not necessarily mean the Commission can go ahead and spend that money in the year in question. In some cases of continuing programmes, there are not the practical opportunities for dispensing additional funds beyond what the Council and Commission have originally planned, and in other cases again, the Commission has made clear that it would not see inscription in the budget as giving sufficient legal authority for expenditure and would want to wait for a policy decision by the Council.
      I think that that has put in proportion some of the so-called powers of the Assembly over budgetary matters. They are not so great as some people have thought.
      The other function of the Assembly is to exercise scrutiny over the activities of the Commission.
      Mr. Spearing: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the budgetary matters, although I agree that what he said was correct, will not he also agree that the Assembly can increase the non-obligatory expenditure within the limit which is allowed and that it can do it year after year—indeed, it has done so in respect of the Regional Fund? The threat of going beyond that figure and putting the twelfths mechanism into effect is a sanction, since the Council of Ministers just before Christmas allowed the Regional Fund to be increased against its original decision.
      Dr. Owen: Yes. I agree with my hon. Friend's description. It is a difficult balance. The Council could resist this and hold up the Community budget, but there would be a form of crisis in the Community.
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      That is the existing position. We are talking mainly about the new powers, and the anxiety about the budgetary aspects which has been raised.
      The hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) asked about regulations. A regulation is not a treaty. But the Assembly cannot pass a regulation. The powers of the Assembly cannot be increased except by a treaty. They cannot be altered by a regulation. We come back, therefore, to the provision which refers to any changes in the treaties. That is a fairly wide coverage.
      Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman a second time. I do so on the question of the budgetary powers and the treaty of 22nd July 1975. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the treaty which changed the budgetary powers was not ratified by the Parliaments of all member States until March 1977 but that it came into practice in 1976. This clause seems only to affect the ratification of treaties by the British Parliament. What will be the position if the same practice is followed as was followed before where the Community and the European Parliament adopt a treaty before it has been ratified? Will the Act which this Parliament passes have been a completely academic exercise in that it decides whether we ratify the treaty after the treaty has been ratified? This is not an academic argument. It is what happened in the case of the treaty affecting the budgetary powers.
      Dr. Owen: I am no lawyer. As I understand it, it is subject to ratification. It is within the power of the Parliament, and if it did not ratify it presumably it would be null and void if the Parliament acted prior to ratification. The particular treaty we are discussing did not go through all its stages. There was no Bill promoted, and this was a source of criticism in the House at the time. The clause is designed to catch the 1975 situation and meet the feelings expressed at that time.
      Mr. Hugh Dykes: The Foreign Secretary has explained fairly and clearly how this would work in the European Parliament's powers over expenditure and the difference between obligatory and non-obligatory expenditure.

      799
      Would he crystallise what he said earlier? If the non-obligatory increase is maximised, as has been hinted at by one hon. Member, to cover the additional expenditure independently arrived at, would that be something that would not come back to the House of Commons for a decision? Is it true, on the other hand, that anything by way of obligatory expenditure would need to come back to each national Parliament for some kind of ratification?
      Dr. Owen: I understand that the Commission can put a limit on the extent to which non-obligatory expenditure can be increased. I stand by the fact that the powers of the Assembly cannot be increased except by treaty. They cannot be changed simply by a regulation in Council. I think that this is covered.
      The other function of the Assembly is to exercise scrutiny over the activities of the Commission, and it has the ultimate power to sack the Commission as long as there is a two-thirds majority. That power has never been exercised. Some people say that it is not a realistic possibility, but I do not wholly agree. I think that one of these days the Assembly might use this power, if only to demonstrate that it has it. However, the Assembly has no power to appoint successors to the Commission. Therefore, having sacked the Commissioners, it cannot appoint successors, and problems would arise. I accept that the Assembly probably would pull back from the brink. The power of appointment to the Commission lies solely with member States. The Assembly has no power to sack individual Commissioners, but the Assembly's right to oversee the Commission's activities is established.
      As an advocate of direct elections, I believe that in this function of overseeing the activities of the Commission the Assembly will have the greatest impact. I hope that the Assembly will be able to influence the Commission to present more proposals to the Council which it feels have the political support of member States. The sheer pressure of work in the House of Commons makes it impossible to have that sort of detailed day-to-day questioning of Ministers about what is happening in Brussels, and, therefore, direct scrutiny of the Commission by the
      800
      Assembly is a useful addition. I have always seen this as an additional power of scrutiny for the House. It is not a replacement power. There is a danger in people exaggerating the consequence and effect of having direct elections on the growth and development of Europe.
      Mr. Nick Budgen: Would the Foreign Secretary comment further on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke)? If the Commission seeks to implement proposals which have not been ratified by national Parliaments, would it be within the power of a British citizen during the period before ratification to go to the European Court to declare those measures illegal unless and until ratified?
      Dr. Owen: I confess that I am no lawyer, but my understanding is that treaty-altering powers must, under the Treaty of Rome, be ratified by all member States in accordance with national constitutional requirements. The treaty may be provisionally put into force but it would not be legally binding. If it is put into provisional force, I imagine that it would be possible to go to court and claim that it is not legally binding if ratification has not occurred. Some lawyers will have a greater wisdom than I and we can clear up the matter later. Most non-lawyers will now understand the situation perfectly.
      How can the Assembly's powers be ex tended? If these are the Assembly's existing powers, what are the procedures for their extension? An extension will require an amendment to the basic European Community Treaties. Under Article 236 these amending treaties can enter into force only after ratification by all member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. In most Community countries ratification in accordance with national constitutional requirements requires explicit prior assent by national legislatures by the equivalent of either a statute or resolution.
      In Britain confusion often arises because the outward form of our constitutional procedures disguises the underlying reality of parliamentary control. The prerogative to negotiate and ratify treaties belongs to the Crown and has not hitherto been fettered by statute. But in Britain

      801
      —unlike countries such as France and the USA which have written constitutions—treaties do not by virtue of ratification override conflicting domestic law. If they contain provisions which can be implemented only by changes in domestic law, then the Crown must seek passage of implementing legislation by Parliament, which it invariably does before ratifying. Treaties are laid before Parliament for 21 days under the so-called Ponsonby Rule before they are ratified, and if Parliament were to express objection during this time the Crown would not proceed to ratification.
      Mr. Dykes: These issues are important. From the Foreign Secretary's bizarre scenario I believe that he is speaking as a non-lawyer and giving us information which most of us appreciate. The conclusion that one must draw is that if the Council of Ministers decided that it would take direct control over 2 per cent. of the public expenditure of all the national Governments and at the same time decided that Parliament should have an additional direct control of 10 per cent. of the Regional Fund, the first decision by the Council would be dealt with here, late at night or upstairs, whereas the second decision would require a fully fledged Act of Parliament. Can the Foreign Secretary confirm the difference between these two decisions?
      Dr. Owen: I may be a simpleton, but I am baffled. I shall see that an answer is given. I am certain that it is important. Before hazarding into this area of theoretical possibilities, which may turn out to be practical possibilities, I owe hon. Members the best legal advice. It would not be right for me to give it off the cuff. It is a point of substance and should be dealt with accordingly.
      The reality of parliamentary control therefore already exists beneath the Royal Prerogative. Its lack of visibility is, however, a definite drawback in an area of policy which arouses such legitimate and passionate concern as extensions to the powers of the Assembly which might conceivably be to the detriment of this Parliament. The Government have, therefore, decided that in this sensitive area it is necessary and right to modify our constitutional procedures. We propose in this clause that there should now
      802
      be a statutory fetter on the Royal Prerogative to negotiate and ratify treaties.
      8.45 p.m.
      The clause will prohibit ratification of any treaty extending the powers of the European Assembly without prior approval of an Act of Parliament. This is a major constitutional innovation, although there is a constitutional convention whereby treaties involving cession of British territories are submitted for the approval of Parliament by Act of Parliament before they are ratified—for example, the treaty under which Heligoland was ceded to Germany in 1890 in exchange for Zanzibar. So that is the way in which the House demonstrates its ability to take unto itself new powers provided in the clause.
      The membership of the European Community has changed the nature of international obligations. European Community decisions affect domestic affairs in this country in a quite unparalleled way, and when the original debates covering our entry into the Community took place in the House there was the feeling that this effect had not been taken sufficiently into account. A good deal of anxiety over the legislation was expressed by hon. Members on both sides at that time. I hope it will now he felt by those people—I openly claim that I was one of them—that the arguments they used then will now be seen to have had some effect.
      I come to the scope of the clause. It bites only on treaties. Institutions of the Community have to keep within the powers allocated to them by the texts of the various treaties. The Assembly is not arbiter of its own powers. It can gain power only at the expense of other institutions by virtue of new treaties amending basic Community treaties. The new clause will ensure that such treaties are approved by the House, by Act of Parliament, before ratification.
      Mr. John Roper: My right hon. Friend said that the clause refers only to treaties, but subsection (2) refers to "any international agreement", and that seems to be too widely drawn. Does that definition include a decision between the Council and the European Parliament? Would that be an international agreement?
      Dr. Owen: My understanding is that it is not. The clause explains what is covered by a treaty. It reads:
      "In this section 'treaty' includes any international agreement, and any protocol or annex to a treaty or international agreement".
      I hope that hon. Members will note that in the formulation of the new clause we have taken account of the points made during the debate on 1st December. The clause is simple, although it has been criticised as being too sweeping. It avoids subjective value judgments of what might encroach on the legislative power of the House. By taking this simple measure we have been able to eschew simple value judgments of this sort.
      The new clause covers unequivocally legislative, budgetary and fiscal powers. The Government believe that it fully meets the concerns expressed in the Committee and that it deserves the Committee's support. The Minister of State will be dealing with some of the specific points, and in particular the point raised by the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) when he replies to the debate. I apologise to the hon. Member for not having the facility to answer him off the cuff.
      Mr. Jay: It seems that my right hon. Friend's whole argument rests on the definition of an international agreement. When he says that he will leave that to a later speech we are left completely in the air. May we have some more enlightenment straight away as to what is and what is not an international agreement for the purposes of the clause?
      Dr. Owen: I believe that my right hon. Friend, who knows more about these matters than I, because he studies them assiduously, will recognise that the wording, meaning and cover of the clause are specific, legal and definite and cover the areas I have described.
      Mr. David Howell: While the Foreign Secretary says that the new clause is in accordance with undertakings which he gave in the debate on 1st December last year, I am afraid that if he expects that fact to recommend it to the House of Commons he does not fully appreciate the sober character of the Committee when faced with new propositions. I hope he will forgive me for saying that
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      there were times in his initial presentation of the clause when he seemed not to be completely in depth and on top of the finer details of the subject. I believe that we shall wish to put a good many questions—I suspect, from both sides of the Committee—which we hope that the Minister of State will be able to answer in winding up. As the right hon. Gentleman indicated several times in several adjectives he used, what has finally emerged in the new clause goes further than perhaps some had expected. It goes further than he himself indicated on 1st December when he talked of no extension that would encroach on the legislative powers of the House of Commons.
      We have now moved on to treaties which concern themselves with any increase in the powers of the Assembly and the questions of ratification by the House. The clause goes further—I make no complaint about it—than some of the words used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) when he used the phrase "at the expense of national Parliaments" Therefore, from both those starting points the clause that now emerges goes further. I make no complaint, but I would like to be satisfied that what we now have before us does the job that is intended and meets some of the problems raised in interventions during the speech of the Foreign Secretary and also some of the doubts which have been raised which I would like now to air.
      The first queston is a fairly obvious one. If in future we are going through the full process of legislation in the House by a Bill becoming an Act with treaties or amendments to a treaty which themselves will be treaties, that obviously is very different from merely saying "Yes" or "No", approving or not, or approving after a one and a half hour's debate on the affirmative resolution procedure. It is completely different. The most obvious difference is that, whereas an order cannot be amended, an Act can and may be amended. If we are to go through the full procedures of Second Reading, Committee stage, Report, Third Reading, Lords amendments and so on, it is perfectly possible that parts of an Act may be amended and parts may be unamended.
      I would like first to know what happens if parts of a Bill are amended by the

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      House but the bulk of it is approved and goes through. Does that then give licence, or does it permit the Government, to ratify the treaty? Does it then conform with the constitutional requirements under Article 236 of the Treaty of Rome? Will it have conformed with the spirit of the new clause, and is there, perhaps, a necessity, if we are to make the clause work, for putting in additional words which would enable the Government to ratify a treaty even if not all the initial clauses that were put forward by the Government of the day to satisfy the treaty were then carried by the House?
      If there were some quite minor amendments, or if a particular clause fell, can we be sure the Government would not be in a frozen posture, unable to ratify the treaty? We would like to know how that problem is to be handled, because, it could, of course, arise.
      Secondly, there is the question of the meaning of the word "treaty" raised by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). This is very important. Does "treaty" mean an amendment to a treaty? I imagine that it does, but should we not be a little more specific? We need the advice of the Government Front Bench on these matters.
      The treaty of 22nd July 1975 was a treaty amending the original Treaty and making important changes in financial provision. It was called a treaty, and it is straightforward, but is it always the case that amendments to treaties will be called treaties, and, therefore, are they always all covered under the Bill? Would it be right to add words to put that beyond doubt?
      Sir Derek Walker-Smith: I think that the difficulty in this matter arises from the fact that Article 236, which deals with amendments to the Rome Treaty and introduces the provision that they will be subject to the ratification of the national legislatures according to their own constitutional procedures, does not proceed further to define the instrument in which the amendment will be clothed. I have said many times here and elsewhere that the EEC Treaty is not a masterpiece of precise draftsmanship. I imagine—if I may for a moment assume the role of advocates diaboli and help the Foreign Secretary—that it is for that reason that
      806
      the second part of his new clause widens the scope as far as possible to include all the possibilities that we can envisage.
      Mr. Howell: I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. I imagine it, guess it and suspect it, but whether it is beyond doubt in the words set down I am not sure. We would like strong reassurance on this point.
      Another point concerns the wording of Article 236 and the phrase used several times by the Foreign Secretary. The article states:
      "The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."
      What is stated in the new clause is that there shall be approval by an Act of Parliament. Again, I suppose—perhaps we can have it confirmed—that approval by Act of Parliament corresponds with and fully satisfies in every way the phrase "respective constitutional requirements".
      Might it perhaps sign and seal this aim if we set out in the new clause—it could be added on Report—that this approval will be one of the constitutional requirements under Article 236? I do not know. It would be a pity if we found ourselves in a tangle in future if it turned out that there were some doubts as to whether "approval" and "respective constitutional requirements" were exactly and equally identical with each other.
      These are matters which worry me immediately on the new clause. As I have said, I make no complaint that it goes wider. Many of us suspected that the right hon. Gentleman would have great difficulty in devising a clause on the rather narrow basis about which he spoke. I note what he said about the Royal Prerogative. At one stage the Home Secretary said that he thought there would be problems about it, but I accept the Foreign Secretary's assurance that these have been overcome.
      I am still left as much in the air as are the right hon. Member for Battersea, North and, I suspect, most of the Committee by the response to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) on the division between the treatment which might apply to increases in the powers of the Council of Ministers and increases in powers of the Assembly.

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      An example was given to the right hon. Gentleman. Is there a situation in which a change involving an increase in the powers of the Assembly itself would demand the full legislative procedures and requires Acts put through Parliament, whereas a change in the powers of the Commission and other parts of the Community would merely go through as an order under the affirmative resolution procedure? If that is the case, it would be somewhat bizarre, but it might be the inevitable implication of the new clause.
      We should like clarification of the valid points raised by my hon. Friend. We support the intention of the new clause, but there are important problems to be clarified. It is essential that we should ensure that there are no invalidating weaknesses in the clause, and we wish to reserve our right to look at the matter again before Report to see whether any improvements or amendments are necessary.
      9 p.m.
      Mr. Powell: On a point of order, Mr. Godman Irvine. It appeared from the speech of the Foreign Secretary, and it has been emphasised by the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), that the new clause before the Committee affects to an important degree the Royal Prerogative.
      I believe it is the case that no such proposal can be laid before the House of Commons unless the Queen's consent has, in the proper way, been signified by one of her Ministers. It may be that it can be signified at a particular stage. In the case of a Bill it is normal, though not a necessary requirement, that it is signified on introduction or on Second Reading.
      On a matter which is so important, you may agree that before the Committee proceeds it should be certified as to the proper point at which that consent should be signified and whether we are entitled, in accordance with the rules of the House, to proceed with consideration of the new clause unless that consent has been so signified.
      The Second Deputy Chairman (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): I think that I can help the right hon. Gentleman. If he will be good enough to look at page
      808
      595 of "Erskine May", he will see that the section dealing with amendments in Committee affecting the Crown states:
      "As it is for the House, and not for a committee, which cannot receive any communication from the Sovereign, to guard the interests of the Crown, no question can arise upon an amendment in committee as to whether the Queen's consent should be signified before the question is proposed. Many precedents exist of amendments, which affected the interests of the Crown, being made in committees on bills, and the Queen's consent being signified at a later stage".
      Mr. John Prescott: I welcome the new clause and the speech of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, though I wonder whether the new clause will achieve the objectives that my right hon. Friend stated for it.
      My right hon. Friend made clear the political objective of the Government to prevent the development of a federal Europe and to prevent the growing power of the European Assembly without the House having some say in the matter. That means that when powers are to be extended by a treaty the House should be able to express an opinion on the matter.
      I do not want to spend too much time on the technical points, important though they are. I looked at the new clause as a politician who was wondering whether it would achieve its intended purpose and considered it against the yardstick of my experience in the European Assembly rather than on whether treaty changes are the only way by which the Assembly can achieve power. I do not believe that this is the only way that the Assembly can achieve power. If that is what the amendment is designed to achieve, I have to tell my right hon. Friend that it does not achieve it.
      If we said that the Assembly requires legislative power, the treaty would have to be amended and the House would be able to express an opinion on the treaties as such. I have read about the Ponsonby Rule and the Procedure that is supposed to be adopted in regard to treaties and amendments. That makes it clearer that Parliament has the power to make a decision on whether it agrees with a change in the treaty.
      However, I wish to address my remarks to the point whether the proposal prevents the extension of power by the Assembly. I have very serious doubts about that. I

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      take as my text for the debate the policy documents produced by the Labour Party and endorsed by our party conference. I refer, for example, to the national executive's statement on the Common Market to the conference:
      "Our objective is to work towards the creation of a wider but much looser grouping of European states—one in which each country is able to realise its own economic and social objectives under the sovereignty of its own Parliament."
      This is endorsed in the letter from the Prime Minister to the national executive, in which he stated:
      "We do not envisage any significant increase in the powers of the European Parliament",
      in the sense that he desired to achieve and maintain the authority of national Governments and Parliaments.
      Whatever the technical difficulties, there are fundamental objections to the proposal on the question whether it achieves the purpose of preventing powers being given to the Assembly. As I have said in articles and in the House of Commons, I am very much aligned with my party's document. I do not wish to see the development of a federal Europe, but I will not expand on those views, as it would not be proper to do so within the purview of the debate.
      The quotations make it clear that the purpose of the amendment is to allow Parliament to maintain authority over the development of further powers given to the European Assembly. Therefore, the key to the argument is whether any developments are increasing the powers of the Assembly and, if they are, whether this institution, this Parliament, has any control over those developments. There is no doubt that those powers are being increased.
      My right hon. Friend, in talking about the budgetary powers of the European Assembly, and its demanding more than the Council of Ministers had agreed, said that the difficulty about disagreeing with it is that there may be a crisis. If we continue to give to it and it continues to ask, there may be a crisis the other way. The control of the source of the supply of money is an important part of an institution's influence over the money supply and the policies which it seeks to influence. That point was made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), when he said that Parliament had
      810
      started from very humble beginnings. He said that Parliament could grow from those beginnings, whether we called it a Parliament or an Assembly.
      Therefore, the Committee has to be clear that all we are doing tonight, in a very limited way, is to give the House of Commons the right to check any changes in the powers of the European Assembly brought about by a direct change in the Treaty. We are doing that and nothing more. We kid ourselves if we think that it in any way measures up to our obligations as part of a policy approach to the development of the Assembly's powers.
      I fully agree with the view, expressed in the Prime Minister's letter, that embarking upon elections to an Assembly is clearly a major step towards giving the institution a major parliamentary form, whether or not it has a legislative function. It is to the gradual process that I particularly object, because we continue to fail to define the specific functions of, and relationships between, institutions. We spend too much time arguing the finer points, fundamental as they may be, and do not look clearly at the relationship that we expect between the institutions and begin to define them a better way.
      I have some doubt whether elections will come for a number of years yet, but when the European Assembly is elected those elected to it will demand more influence. We should be foolish not to accept that. Everyone, on both sides of the argument, will accept that that is the purpose and role that he sees for that parliamentary Assembly.
      On the basis of my own experience, I want to examine how the policies are developing, and particularly budgetary controls, which give the Assembly considerable influence, influence that is growing all the time. The House of Commons did not oppose a further extension of the budgetary powers, giving the Assembly much greater powers than might be restricted by this kind of amendment. With the development of budgetary controls, we see the major developments of parliamentary control. The more I look at them, the more despondent I become about whether we shall prevent the development of a European Parliament which is at the heart of a federal Europe. If we desire that it should be

      811
      a consultative assembly and not a Parliament, I hope that we shall act quickly to prevent that happening.
      My right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary made clear that the Assembly has power to reject the budget. That right was endorsed within the Treaty and again in 1970, but more important was what happened in 1975, when a treaty change came before the House of Commons. It was debated but not opposed. We debated on 8th December 1975 an order which amended the pre-accession treaties. The schedule to the order covered the Assembly's budgetary powers and the establishment of an audit court.
      My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, then Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, told the House in that debate that the 1970 treaty stipulated that from 1st January 1975 the full own resources system applied to the Six original members. My right hon. Friend said that the order sought further to extend the Assembly's powers. He said:
      "The first is when the Assembly seeks a modification to the budget which does not involve an increase in the total of obligatory expenditure … That change in the budget is accepted by the Council of Ministers unless the Council of Ministers provides a qualified majority against the new proposals."
      We have given the Assembly powers not only to reject the budget with certain qualifications but to have the last word in non-compulsory expenditures, expenditures in areas not covered by the treaty requirements. These can be major areas of policy, such as regional policies, social funds, energy, research and development and industrial policies. All these are non-obligatory expenditures, and they are the fastest growing areas of expenditure. By the very nature of present circumstances, particularly economic and political circumstances, they are the very areas that must grow.
      In the change in 1975 we thus endorsed the Assembly's power not only to reject the budget but to affect expenditure priorities within the non-compulsory expenditures. The Assembly can take the matter further and increase the amounts, as it has done this year. In addition, it now has the power to inter
      812
      vene in expenditures in the obligatory sectors, such as the common agricultural policy.
      One hopes that the CAP will change. Perhaps it will reduce its share of the total budget, which is about 70 per cent. Presumably that would affect the Community's ceiling of expenditure, now to be determined by its own resources formula at the equivalent of about one per cent. value added tax. This would mean that more money would be available for non-obligatory expenditure, even within that one per cent. VAT limit. That is quite apart from any further changes that may come in the raising of resources that do not necessarily mean a change in the treaty. That may be a contentious point, but I emphasise that I refer to changes that do not necessarily mean such a change.
      9.15 p.m.
      We have extended the powers of the Assembly. In a way, we have weakened the power of the Council of Ministers, which is the legislative body. We have given powers to the Assembly to establish a case and to fight for it, but have provided a qualified majority argument. If any two of the largest members in the Community agrees to a proposition, there is sufficient strength to override the other seven nations. That is the position, provided that the two large nations in qualified judgment agree with the line taken by the Assembly. To that extent, its powers and influence considerably extend into the sphere of the Council of Ministers.
      If we are looking for examples of what is happening in the non-compulsory areas of expenditure, let us take the last budgetary expenditure. The Parliament was able to achieve more than the Council of Ministers, even at the negotiating stage where an argy-bargy takes place.
      The situation this year provides an even more important indication. This year the stage was reached when the Assembly rejected the first stage of the negotiations. However, it went to the second stage. We heard my right hon. Friend explain that as we did not want a crisis we backed down. He said that the European Assembly became, in effect, a Parliament. It said, in effect, that it controlled the budget and the supply of money of the Council of Ministers, which

      813
      by treaty is a legislative function. In regard to the budget, I grant that it has total power not to exceed it.
      The European Assembly argued that it wanted more for regional needs—for example, unemployment and social purposes. Submissions were made that it was difficult for the Ministers to reject, and its supply of money was increased. I think that the sum involved was about £40 million, but that does not matter. This is about giving the Assembly a certain sum one year and then witnessing it returning the next year and taking more. It may be thought that non-elected Members are not especially militant, but we can be sure that elected members will be militant. They will demand more and more resources.
      At present non-obligatory expenditures are about 30 per cent. of the total expenditure of about £8,000 million, which will be available for all the funds that I have mentioned. For example, the Regional Fund will expand. People will demand more and more Regional Fund expenditure. There is also Social Fund expenditure.
      The influence and control of the European Assembly in this area is determined by Article 235, but provided that all nations agree—regional policy does not come under the Treaty—there may be an extension of influence and power into that area. Therefore, Article 235 does not require a Treaty change, and it becomes a debatable subject for the Assembly.
      If we look at that development with others, the present 1 per cent. value added tax is but 0·7 per cent. of the GNP of all Community nations. The McDougall Committee that is examining the finances of the Community is calling for considerably more resources to be given to the Community. Let us say that there is a call for 5 per cent. of the GNP of all the Community nations from the President of the Commission, who desires to see economic and monetary union. It may be that he would like about £50,000 million to be made available to the Community. That would be equivalent to 8 per cent. value added tax.
      I know that I have laboured the point, but I wish to make it clear that the question of resources is essential to whether this institution is a Parliament or an Assembly. Whether it legislates is but a
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      secondary function. By determining the money supply and priorities of expenditure, it determines what policies shall be pursued. Provided that it is doing that, it is not a consultative Assembly but a Parliament. If Members are elected, they will argue about who legislates what. To all intents and purposes, it is a policy.
      Mr. Ronald Brown: I have listened to my hon. Friend with great interest. I am not sure whether he is in favour of this process. During the past few months I have heard him making calls to increase the budget when I have been trying to reduce it and been defeated. Is he in favour of this process or not?
      Mr. Prescott: I am surprised that my hon. Friend should not have noted that I have voted against increases in the budget. I have constantly argued against increasing the budget of the European Assembly both here and in the Assembly. It is a matter of record. I have made my position clear in speeches. My view is a minority view in the European Assembly. I sometimes find that it is a minority view here. But what is not in doubt is where I stand on particular issues. I do not want to delay the Committee by explaining my position. I understand the problem of the source of the money supply. There are certain complications within the Socialist Group regarding policy decisions.
      Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as there is rarely a record of voting in the European Assembly how Members speak and vote is sometimes at variance, just as it has been on certain occasions between the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends?
      Mr. Prescott: I apologise for not having picked up the essential part of the hon. Lady's question. I cannot give an adequate answer to the question because I did not fully grasp it. That was more through my own inattention, and I apologise.
      Sir D. Walker-Smith: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to grasp and to answer this question. Among the many interesting remarks that he made was a reference to Article 235 of the Treaty. Does he agree that under that Article

      815
      the powers and involvement of the Community can be considerably expanded without strict adherence to the presumed intentions of the Treaty, because it evades the requirement of an amendment under Article 236? The hon. Gentleman may be aware that I have raised that matter in the Assembly, of which we are both Members, since before he becames a Member. I think that he could do quite a lot in his influential position there by following up this interesting matter that he has mentioned tonight.
      Mr. Prescott: My hon. Friends who serve within the Socialist Group in the European Assembly know that I constantly raise that matter. That is why I am opposed to economic and monetary union, of which we shall hear more later.
      I apologise to the Committee, because I shall have to leave at the conclusion of my speech. I have to be in Brussels tomorrow to vote in a committee at 9 a.m. Therefore, I shall have to catch a plane at 10.30 p.m. to get there in time. I apologise for this discourtesy. It is not my normal practice to make a speech and then to depart. In the circumstances, I hope that the Committee will understand and will forgive me.
      I have tried to indicate that the amendment is welcome, but that it will not achieve its political purpose. Therefore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) said in a debate in the House on 28th November, we must call for a special parliamentary procedure to be instituted here so that all developments and decisions by the Council of Ministers are subject to some form of control.
      I suggest that we should have a committee similar to the Danish committee. I have argued both outside and inside the House of Commons for such a committee to be set up here. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has promised to bring forward a proposal on those lines before the end of the Session. Acceptance of the amendment together with the setting up of such a committee will give the House of Commons control over the extension of powers of the European Assembly to which I object. We should maintain the Assembly as an Assembly within a loose association of States rather than allow it to develop as a federal
      816
      Europe and Parliament within its own control. That has always been my position. I hope that we shall hear something about that matter from the Government tonight.
      Mr. Powell: The embarrassment of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) in having to explain that he could not stay with us for the whole of this debate should not disturb him too much, because it is only a symptom and evidence of the humiliation under which the House lives by the sharing of what should be its exclusive powers with a body existing elsewhere.
      In the course of his extremely able and cogent speech, the hon. Gentleman said, I hope I was right in thinking, that he did not expect direct elections to a European Assembly to take place for some time to come. To that I say a most fervent "Amen", and it is a responsibility every Member shares to play his part in that result if he is of the opinion that the hon. Gentleman expressed. But what the hon. Gentleman has done is to remove any notion that the clause in any way lessens the consequences for the House and the country of the substitution of direct election to the Assembly for the present method of nomination.
      The innovation which the clause represents is, we have been told, a considerable constitutional innovation, but the more we examine it the less we shall think we have gained in return for that substantial innovation.
      At the outset, the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) made an interesting intervention in which he pointed out that in form the new clause went far beyond the intentions that were spoken about at the time the Government undertook to bring it forward. That draws our attention to an important fact about the constitution of the European Economic Community. The question is: are there any powers which the Assembly can gain which are not ultimately at the expense of the House of Commons? I believe that the answer to that question is "No". Power gained by one authority must be at the expense of some other authority or authorities. Power does not simply exist in the atmosphere unclaimed. It is in some hands or other hands whether or not it is actually being used.

      817
      There are two other authorities at the expense of which the Assembly can increase its powers. One is the Commission and the other is the Council of Ministers. There is no doubt that, in so far as its increase in powers is at the expense of the authority and influence of the Council of Ministers, that must be a diminution of the powers of the House, since the powers of the House are exerted in the EEC through our influence over Ministers on the Front Bench. But when we look at the opposite pole—the Commission—and inquire what would be the result if the Assembly were to acquire powers at the expense of the Commission, we come paradoxically to the same conclusion.
      Throughout, it has been the Commission which has been pressing forward direct elections and which has been anxious to see the authority and standing of the Assembly strengthened, because the Commission and the Assembly together would form that sort of combination which Executive and Parliament together form in the constitution of this country. For the Commission, the increase of the authority of the Assembly, the increase of its powers, whether formal or informal, is an accretion to the strength of the Commission. It is the centralised bureaucratic government of the Community that gains thereby. The strengthening of the Commission is, of course, ipso facto a diminution of the power and influence of the Council of Ministers. So, whichever way and in whatever circumstances the powers of the Assembly are increased, that increase must be in derogation of the real power and authority of the House of Commons.
      9.30 p.m.
      Therefore, the Government were right—no doubt they went through these thought processes themselves in the drafting of the new clause—not to attempt to define the sort of increase in the powers of the Assembly which would be at the expense of the House of Commons, but to draw the clause in the general terms in which it is before the Committee. But even when they have done that—and this is really the important conclusion to which all this debate is tending—we find that they have erected not a fortress of iron and stone but a paper fortress which merely presents the appearance of a
      818
      protection and control, without the reality. Even formally, it is very doubtful whether the requirement of legislation imposes any bar whatsoever.
      There was a passage in the speech of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) which bore upon this. The hon. Member was anxious to know whether, when the necessary legislation implied in the new clause was brought before the House of Commons, we should be able to amend it and what would happen if we amended it. I have to tell the hon. Member that those of us who lived through the early stages of the European Communities Bill in 1972 can give him the answer. We should not be able to amend any such Bill. It would be a Bill to authorise the ratification of such and such a treaty, and whatever in that Bill failed to authorise the ratification, whatever did not fully comply with the necessity for the Government to ratify that treaty, would be out of order. It would be outside the powers of the House of Commons, as we speedily discovered when we addressed ourselves in Committee to the European Communities Bill in 1972.
      Therefore, even procedurally we should find that the tiger was a paper tiger and that there were simply no teeth, even in the requirement of legislation. It would be a rubber stamp of a legislative form instead of a merely resolution form.
      But the inessentiality of this apparent protection goes much further and deeper than that. As the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East reminded the Committee, the increase of powers of an elected Assembly does not normally come, it does not suddenly originally come, by legislation, by formal recognition, by decision—"Let us have some more powers and have a resolution saying that we are to have those powers." That is not how it happens in real life. It happens by the growth of conventions, by the agreement or connivance between one authority and another—between the Commission and the Assembly, or, perhaps, between the Assembly and the Council of Ministers—that certain things will be done or will not be done, provided that, or unless, the agreement of the Assembly has been forthcoming. It is convention upon which the powers of an elected Assembly and of a Parliament are based.

      819
      After all, anyone who examined our constitution today in its formal structure would come to the conclusion that Her Majesty was able to dispose of anything which the House of Commons might care to pass, but it has been a convention since 1707 that she does not do so; and it is the convention which is king, not the form of the constitution, not the formal powers, not the treaty powers.
      We are, therefore, laying hands upon the inessential while the increase of powers, the essential, evades us, because, of the order of things, it takes place not by specific decision, not by agreement, but by the growth of convention, the growth of agreement and the production of successive crises.
      It was a very significant term that the Foreign Secretary used. He said that the Assembly can "produce a crisis". It has been by producing a series of crises over the centuries that the House of Commons has gained its powers. Of course, when the powers are gained it may or may not be convenient to come along and say "Let us regularise the situation, let us have an international agreement, let us have a treaty under Article 236 of the Treaty of Rome." But by that time the powers actually will have been increased. The horse will have bolted.
      When that happens, the presentation of the Bill in the House will be a formality in more than the technical sense to which I referred earlier, for the Government, when they come with the Bill and with the treaty, will appeal to what is common knowledge. They will say "This agreement, this treaty, merely accepts what everybody knows has long been the practice. It is merely consecrating, it is merely regularising, that which cannot be reversed, that which has come to be the practice, and it is acknowledging powers which already exist."
      Mr. Christopher Price: Is it not far more likely that they will not even bother and that, because the conventions actually grow up and because of the difficulties of getting the treaties ratified by every member Government, this provision will in fact never be used at all?
      Mr. Powell: Quite likely, and if the EEC were a British institution I would agree with the hon. Gentleman without reservation, because that is exactly the
      820
      way in which we go about things. We leave the form standing and we change the reality inside the outer framework. I have a feeling, however, that that is not the Continental habit. So maybe we shall find that there is a certain bureaucratic or legalistic fussiness which from time to time comes along behind and consolidates the ground which has actually been won.
      It is also another way—this is the last aspect to which I want to draw the Committee's attention—in which, without any formal increase of powers, unacknowledged, silently, the very existence of a directly elected European Assembly is bound to reduce the powers and significance of the House of Commons.
      The Foreign Secretary said that we should find that our control and scrutiny of what the EEC did would be strengthened by the work of a directly elected Assembly. I believe that exactly the opposite is the case. He said—and he was right so far—that the European Assembly, especially with its new-cut teeth, if it is directly elected, will be able to give much more detailed scrutiny, much more continuous scrutiny, backwards and forwards—several stages of scrutiny—to matters in which the Community has engaged. I am sure that that is true. But what effect will that have upon the endeavours of the House—not so far entirely successful—to exert control over EEC legislation and EEC policy? What will be the practical effect?
      We know how difficult it is to get anything on to the Floor of the House for an hour and a half in the early hours of the morning. We can manage to do so only because we do it on the basis of the claim that this is the only control which the people of the country have over the legislation which is to be imposed upon them. It will be a very different story that we shall hear during Business Question Time on a Thursday and on such other occasions when there is a directly elected Assembly. We shall soon begin to hear that this has all been gone into thoroughly, and what is the point of just spending an hour and a half on an out-of-date memorandum on proposals which are in a stage that is already obsolete when we have an Assembly directly elected for the purpose which is scrutinising the matters in committee hour after hour and which can scrutinise them at successive stages?
      Mr. Jay: Did the right lion. Member notice that we had an example of this even this afternoon when one of my hon. Friends said that it was not in the power of the Committee to discuss the number of Members which we should send to the EEC Assembly because that had all been settled by the other Governments earlier? If that can be argued even before we have a directly elected Assembly, what will happen afterwards?
      Mr. Powell: I am sure that that is so. However, it is a much more dramatic presentation to try to imagine the sort of debates, ineffective as they have been, that have taken place over the past few years and to imagine them in circumstances in which we already have a directly elected Assembly working with a fine-tooth comb over all these matters and placing upon them the impress of its own policy, its own decisions and its own determinations. We shall soon be told that we have a body which is specially elected by the people of this country to do that work, and why should we want to duplicate it so ineffectively and so unauthoritatively in this House of Commons?
      No. There, the Foreign Secretary had it exactly wrong. It is not the scrutiny of the House which will be strengthened by the European Assembly in its proposed new form. The scrutiny and control of the House over EEC legislation will be destroyed by such an institution, because the two cannot exist together.
      I do not say that the Government have not honestly attempted in the clause to do what they promised. They have. But the very attempt to do so and the futility of it when it is examined show the nature of the decision, if we take it, to substitute a directly elected Assembly for the present Assembly in the EEC. It is a step which is irreconcilable with the continued sovereignty of the House of Commons over our Executive, let alone over the Executive of the Common Market.
      Mr. John Lee: I am grateful for an opportunity to take part in this debate. I did not anticipate being called quite so soon.
      I begin by making an observation which I hope will not be regarded as churlish. It seems extraordinary that in a debate of constitutional importance of
      822
      this kind neither of the Law Officers is in attendance, nor, for that matter, is the Lord Advocate, although, of course, he has been busy and has had other problems this week. At any rate, I had assumed that one or other of the Law Officers would be here to assist the Foreign Secretary when he was having difficulties with the more technical aspects of the clause.
      Mr. Dennis Skinner: They have been in court.
      Mr. Lee: It may be argued that they have been in court today, but so have I—
      Mr. Skinner: Apology accepted.
      Mr. Lee:—and I do not see that that is any excuse for their non-attendance this evening.
      Mr. Jay: In order to assist the Committee, would not it be useful if my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee) were to ask the Minister of State whether we were to have the benefit of the presence of the Attorney-General, or, at any rate, of one of the Law Officers, as surely we clearly should before this debate ends?
      Mr. Lee: My hon. Friend the Minister of State has heard that intervention. I hope that he will pass it on and that it will wing its way back behind the Chair to the appropriate room in that part of the building.
      Next I must express my own appreciation, because I think that the Government have seriously attempted to grapple with this problem. But, as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said, the mere attempt, however well intentioned, serves only to demonstrate the futility of the exercise when it is set against so many uncertainties.
      9.45 p.m.
      The Foreign Secretary gave some rather interesting and perhaps unintentional examples of the difficulties that arise when he attempted to grapple, not altogether successfully, with the "grey" area of treaties provisionally in force but not yet ratified. I am not sure what is meant by that, and I am far from certain as to how these matters can be clarified.
      We are not only engaged in the whole gamut of EEC matters—to which I am

      823
      so resolutely opposed—but in this part of the Bill we are engaged in the novel exercise of whittling away the prerogative right to make a treaty by attempting to make it subject to statutory regulation. This seems to give another reason for arguing for the amendment that stands in my name.
      I must make it clear why I have put down the amendment. I want to clarify beyond peradventure that any dispute about the interpretation of the powers that the House seeks to cede—and I hope that it will never cede any more—will lie within the courts of this country.
      One has only to look at Articles 235 and 236 and also to remember the way in which, by its power of budgetary manipulation, the Assembly, still an ostensibly nominated body, has nevertheless arrogated to itself by one device or another powers which were really not envisaged as part of its functions.
      I do not want to repeat what the right hon. Member for Down, South said with his usual lucidity and succinctness, but the fact is that these things tend to snowball. There is no legislative Assembly in the world whose powers remain static. They either grow and grow, or they fade away and the Assembly expires. Therefore, it is of paramount importance that there should be provisions of the kind that I have stipulated. I make no apology for my emphatic use of words when I say:
      "For the avoidance of doubts, the interpretation of the provisions of this Clause shall rest exclusively with the Courts of the United Kingdom, from whom no appeal shall lie on any matter relating thereto whatsoever to the Court of the Community or Courts outside the United Kingdom."
      Those words are not otiose. They are necessary to give emphasis, so that there can be no mistaking the purpose in the courts.
      New fields of law always provide maximum uncertainty. Let me give an example from an entirely different field of law. The courts of this country had numerous cases over interpretation of the Restrictive Trades Practices Act 1956 in the period immediately after its passing. There was a great spate of cases for a short time, but they scarcely exist now. Here we had a developing field of law. Surely it is important to control the way in which these things happen.
      824
      I shall give some precedents. The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is a good example of the reverse process to that of the Community. As members of the Commonwealth have become independent, with rare exceptions they have sought to emancipate themselves from the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee. In some instances they have even succeeded in doing so illegally. In one instance the court itself purported to declare the invalidity of a Canadian statute in the 1930s. I quote:
      "In Nadan v. The King the Judicial Committee held invalid a section of a Canadian statute abolishing appeals to the Privy Council in criminal cases. The section was repugnant to the provisions of the Judicial Committee Acts of 1833 and 1844 and was therefore void under the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865".
      In more recent years, no serious attempt has been made to continue fettering newly independent Commonwealth countries, by declaring them subordinate to the Judicial Committee appellate unless they have chosen to be. Most have chosen not to be.
      If we are in earnest in saying that we wish to set a limit to the powers, or we think that we are setting a limit, surely there can be no objection to including, a provision in the Bill to make it impossible for appeals to go to the Court. It is strange in a week when we have heard rather a lot about Scotland. One is reminded of that provision in the Act of Settlement which debarred criminal appeals from Scotland to the House of Lords. The buck stops in Edinburgh. I understand from Scottish lawyers in the House, who know more about this than I, that for a time it was thought that there was no civil appellate judiciary. It was revived in somewhat dubious circumstances some 30 years after the Act of Settlement.
      Long before devolution became a live issue and long before the SNP appeared on the Benches opposite, the Scots jealously guarded their right to control the judicial interpretation of one facet of their law. Surely we are entitled to do the same with matters that are of importance.
      It is worth reminding ourselves of the Commonwealth position. Of the 31 independent countries of the Commonwealth, only the Bahamas, Fiji, Gambia, Jamaica,

      825
      Malaya, Mauritius, New Zealand, Singapore, Trinidad and Tobago, Barbados and Australia retain the right of appeals to be heard by the Judicial Committee. When South Africa was in the Commonwealth, I believe that only five appeals on criminal matters ever went to the Privy Council. In view of the Draconian character of the criminal law of that country, it is not surprising that it withered away.
      I remind the Committee of what Article 177 of the Treaty says about these matters, because it is important for the Committee to remember what the powers are. The article states:
      "Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling thereon. Where any such question is raised in a case pending before a court or tribunal of a Member State, against whose decisions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice."
      We have had some strange preliminary examples of this. I can mention two dissimilar matters that have been brought up.
      Last year in London, a magistrates' court adjourned for a reference to be made to the Court of the Community for interpretation of our immigration laws on the question of the powers of deportation. We have seen—it has exercised the House on more than one occasion—the way in which the Minister of Agriculture has been restrained by at any rate an interim decision of the Court last summer from implementing or continuing to implement the pig subsidy. That matter still awaits final determination. The fact that it is a matter of such urgency, bearing as it does upon that part of the farming community that is perhaps best qualified to claim, if there is any such claim, an increase in revenue, and that it should be so delayed is an illustration of the difficulties we have to endure while we submit ourselves to judicial processes outside this country.
      My amendment does not correct that fault. However, at least I seek, and hope that the Government will be prepared to accept, that as far as these matters are concerned they shall be interpreted in a court in this country.
      826
      We all know the methodology of Continental courts, which is so different from our own. They are much more influenced by Roman and Roman Dutch law than we are. We provide two judges for the Court of the Community. To hark back again to the example of the Privy Council, it was often the source of resentment among independent Commonwealth countries that they should be, to use words uttered many years ago,
      "fettered by the unhelpful decisions of distant judges".
      That is surely applicable even though the distance is not quite so great from here to Luxembourg as it may be from Ottawa to the Privy Council in Downing Street.
      So the Government should have nothing to fear from accepting my amendment. I do not know, but there are rumours that they intend to resist it. I hope they do not. If they say that the amendment is unnecessary, it is at any rate a safeguard which does no harm. If the Government share the lurking doubts that some of us have that something is needed to make certain that the powers will not always be at risk of being interpreted to the further detriment of the domestic English law, they must accept the case for the amendment.
      Do Ministers fear that if the amendment is accepted this will itself be the subject of judicial challenge in the Community and that we shall be faced, as we have not so far been faced, with a direct constitutional clash between this country and the Court of the Community? It has always been said by Ministers, from either party, who have been seeking to reassure those of us who are sceptical that we can always repeal the European Communities Act 1972. One day, I suppose, that will be put to the test. I do not see any prospect of it at the moment while the payroll vote seems to be able to override the endemic anti-Market feelings of the Labour Party.
      As for the Conservative Party, with the exception of a gallant band of six or seven, very few of its Members are likely to put it to the test, so we shall not know for a very long time, if at all, whether any Act of repeal passed in the House would be in danger of being voided, in legal theory at any rate, by a decision of the Court of the Community.

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      10.0 p.m.
      If, however, my amendment is accepted, it presents a direct challenge to the Court. I make no apology for that, because we shall then, and very soon I suspect, have a showdown on the matter. Then we shall know whether all this talk and all the reassurance that has been given are just so much humbug, as many of us believe them to be, or whether the situation really is that, at least in legal theory, we in 1972 did what many of us believed was the case and effected an irreversible cession of sovereignty; and, at least in a technical sense, we shall need to commit an act of revolution to repeal it, an act of revolution which may be peaceful and which one hopes will happen that way.
      My belief is that it will become a matter where force majeure applies only when the day comes—I have used this fanciful but by no means impossible analogy before—when a tipstaff from the Court of the Community comes into the House, brushes aside the Serjeant at Arms and arrests the Minister of Agriculture for illegally paying a subsidy which has been authorised under the supposed powers of the House of Commons. Let us see what the Minister has to say. In the fullness of time, if the Chair permits, I shall move the amendment. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to accept it, because this would be a very good opportunity for a denouement with the Community.
      Mr. Ian Percival: I should like to raise a question of law while there is still time for the Minister to consider it or to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee) in sending for a Law Officer to advise the Committee on it if the Minister does not know the answer.
      The Government's case for the new clause depends on the twin propositions that the powers of the Assembly can be altered only by amendment of the Treaty of Rome and that that amendment can be made only by a process which comes within the definition of "treaty" in subsection (2) of the clause. Unless both those propositions are sound, the observations that the new clause does not do as much as it professes to do are well founded. Already in this debate doubt has been cast on the proposition in two
      828
      quite different ways. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) raised practical arguments why the effect would not be what is intended.
      I rise to raise this point of law. The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) says that there is an alternative way of giving additional powers to the Assembly by employing Article 235 of the Treaty. Some support was given to that in the Bell Report. The argument is that, if the situation under Article 235 can be said to have arisen, the appropriate measures which can be taken by the Council might include giving additional powers to the Assembly. The general view is that this is not a sound argument, but, as it has been raised by at least one right hon. Gentleman in this debate, either we ought to have the benefit of the advice of the Minister of State on what is purely a matter of law or—this is why I am raising it now—if he feels that he cannot deal with it himself, there is still time to bring a Law Officer to advise the Committee on it.
      Mr. Christopher Price: This is the first time that I have spoken in this Committee, but it is an important evening for me as far as Europe is concerned. A year ago, I was elected by my colleagues, somewhat by accident, as a member of the delegation to the European Assembly, and today I decided—indeed, I did so some time ago—that I had had enough and that one year was plenty. I went on as a mild sceptic and come off as a deep cynic. I went on somewhat by accident and I have come off with a deliberation that my friends seldom find in me.
      All my experience of a year in the Assembly points to the problems we have heard about in the debate. Is it a consultative Assembly or a sovereign Parliament? Or is it a nascent sovereign Parliament? For the record, I find it unutterably tedious as a consultative Assembly, and I would find it terrifying if it ever were to get the powers of a sovereign Parliament.
      It is said that the powers of the present Assembly seem minimal. People say that it has certain powers over the budget and that it can sack the Commission. But the powers seem minimal at the moment because, as constituted, the Assembly does not even try to use any independent powers of its own.

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      Hitherto, the Assembly has been very much the Commission's poodle. To paraphrase the title of one of his own books, it might be right to call it "Mr. Jenkins's Poodle". Time and again, day after day, vote after vote, it does exactly what the Commission tells it to do. A vast number of the reports that come from the Assembly, each bearing the name of some parliamentarian or other—there has even been a Price Report in my brief year there—are not even written by the individual; they are written by the secretariat of the committee concerned on information supplied by the Commission.
      So, at the moment, the Assembly is a mangy old sheepdog which would not bite anyone or do any harm. This lulls us into a sense of complacency, perhaps, in thinking that there is no great danger of the Assembly getting any more power except by the sort of change in the Treaty which, according to New Clause 8, has to have the consent of this Parliament. Both my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) and the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) have exposed the deep fallacy of the new clause.
      The fallacy concerns the nature of power. No one ever gives anyone power. People take power. This Parliament has taken power. The danger is that, after direct elections, without any change in the Treaty, a situation could arise where the Assembly, more and more calling itself a Parliament, would, little by little, year by year, use the threat of the large powers it has to accrete to itself all sorts of small powers in a conspiratorial alliance with the Commission to frustrate the decisions of the Council of Ministers, and thereby to frustrate our Ministers and to prevent action such as that which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been taking over the past few weeks in standing up for the House of Commons.
      Let us imagine what might happen. After direct elections, there may be a Socialist majority in the Assembly that would elect Willi Brandt as President of the Parliament. Alternatively, the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) might stand and be elected President by the conglomeration of Right-wing parties in the Parliament—though they do not get on very well at present. If the President of the new directly elected
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      Parliament, which would have a certain amount of prestige, started throwing his weight about with the Commission and the Council of Ministers, enormous power and influence could be taken by the Parliament without any change in the Treaty so that this poor little new clause would not have the slightest effect.
      These things happen slowly. There is a great contrast between this place and the bunch of places in Europe where they will probably end up with at least three parliamentary buildings. There is already one in Luxembourg, a group of Luxembourg banks is going into the "on spec" building of another Parliament in the hope that someone will rent it, there is the new building at Strasbourg, and most members of the Assembly are determined to take over the redundant Banque Lambert in Brussels.
      Mr. Dykes: If the hon. Gentleman dislikes the European Parliament, why does he stay there and continue to draw his expenses?
      Mr. Price: I have asked myself what I was doing there. I was about to draw a contrast to show how power could grow in Europe. Our civil servants do not take too much notice of Parliament, but at least our Questions get answers and we can get certain information. At least if we write a letter or put down a Question, it has a little red tab attached to it as it zooms around Whitehall sending junior civil servants into a flat spin.
      In the Assembly the situation is the opposite. One is lucky to get a written question answered within six months. There is no machinery for forcing the Commission to take notice of the Parliament. I do not blame the Commission. It is staffed mostly by bright, over-paid young Europeans who despise the Parliament because they think that they are running Europe. In many ways, they are.
      However, if the new Assembly starts flexing its muscles, getting its questions anwered and taking itself seriously—as many people hope that it will—the power of that Parliament will grow and the new clause will have no effect in preventing that growth.
      I have enjoyed myself over there. I used to wonder why the Assembly met at Strasbourg and stopped at 8 p.m. sharp for dinner. Then I realised what the

      831
      common agricultural policy was all about. It is about the obsession of Europeans with food and the Gargantuan way they go about it after their tasks are over for the day.
      It is all very pleasant, but it could change from a rather sloppy, pleasant Assembly into a serious Parliament. I accept that there are circumstances in which it could change and become little more than a sort of city council comprising some elderly superannuated politicians who know how to get themselves selected. In that case, it might be no more powerful than at present for a few years. If it goes on existing, it will want the power. It will get the power. It might even, I would say to the right hon. Member for Down, South, be infected by a little English pragmatism and not bother about changing any more treaties but simply accrete this power.
      For those people who want that to happen, this is fair enough. That is what they have been after for the last 10 or 20 years. That is what some of my German Socialist and Italian Socialist colleagues in the Assembly want and have been fighting for since the Second World
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      War. I accept that. But for those of us who believe in trying to maintain this Parliament as the sort of Parliament that takes itself seriously it is the end, because the two cannot live side by side.
      10.15 p.m.
      As the European Assembly takes crucial decisions of the kind talked about by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East over the whole range of economic policy, if it uses these powers, there is nothing left here. I accept that that is what many people want. But I do not think that anyone should congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in the belief that the amendment, or even the amendment to the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee) will make any real difference to the way in which power accretes. I do not know whether it will.
      I suspect that the EEC may fold over the next 10 to 20 years and become a sort of EFTA. But if it does not, the Assembly has sufficient powers which are not being used to pose a significant threat to everything that we do here.
      Mr. David Stoddart: On a point of order, Mr. Murton. The hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee) raised a number of legal points. The hon. and learned Member for Southport asked whether we could have a Law Officer present to give his interpretation of the situation. We have had no reply from my hon. Friend the Minister. He has not indicated to the Committee whether a Law Officer is to explain these matters and give his learned opinion. On a matter of this sort it is essential that the Committee has the best possible legal advice. The Minister should make some response.
      The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Frank Judd): Perhaps I may intervene briefly on this point, because I understand that there is some anxiety on both sides of the Committee. We have been into the matter in some detail. From our standpoint it is inconceivable that Article 235 could be used to extend the powers of the Assembly. It would be completely contrary to the terms of the Treaty. If hon. Members who have expressed concern in the Committee this evening look at Article 235 they will see that it refers to the objectives. This answers the anxiety which has been expressed. The Assembly is not an objective in that sense.
      Mr. Jay: With all respect to my hon. Friend, whom we are honestly trying to assist in order that he may be able to give the Committee proper legal advice, it is not only Article 235 that is at issue here. Among others, the additional point has been raised of the legal definition of an international agreement. My right honourable Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary was asked this question and did not even pretend to know the answer. He said frankly that he did not know it and that it would be given later in the debate by someone with more legal knowledge than he had. It has not been given on any point except on the question of Article 235.
      We are raising this point of order because there is time, before the hour gets too late, for the Government to see that proper legal advice is available on the Front Bench, in accordance with all precedent. I hope that with your help,
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      Mr. Murton, my hon. Friend may avail himself of this opportunity before it is too late. It would be deplorable if the Committee had to decide without proper information on the legal meaning of the amendment.
      The Chairman (Mr. Oscar Murton): The right hon. Gentleman knows that he must not appeal to me for help. It is not a matter for the Chair.
      Mr. Judd: I understand the Committee's anxieties, but I also recognise that there is a great deal of feeling, not least on the part of my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), about the shortage of time available for debate. Therefore, I was deliberately holding back, giving as many hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber as possible an opportunity to intervene. If the Committee wishes, I shall certainly deal with some of these points as they occur, but in my view this will deprive other hon. Members of the opportunity to intervene.
      One question, put by the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), was whether a treaty amending a basic Community treaty was a treaty within the meaning of the clause. The answer is "Yes", but no further phraseology is needed. Amendments to the treaties can be made only by international agreement between member States, ratified according to their national constitutional requirements. Any such amending treaties which increase the powers of the European Assembly will henceforth require approval by Act of Parliament before the Government can ratify.
      The other point, also properly raised by the hon. Gentleman, was whether Parliament could amend a Bill to authorise an increase in the Assembly's powers. Again, the answer is "Yes". Amendments can of course be tabled, but such a Bill would normally have only one clause. The choice for Parliament will normally be between authorising ratification and not authorising ratification. Parliament would not be able to alter the words of a treaty, but it could require the Government in some cases to ratify subject to a reservation.
      Several Hon. Members rose—
      Mr. David Howell: I am not sure whether we are still on a point of order,

      835
      Mr. Murton, or whether we have moved on to an intervention by the Minister.
      What the hon. Gentleman said was interesting and useful, and it answers some of the points I raised. I am glad that before the end of the debate some of these matters are being made clearer, but we are worried about deeper matters. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) intervened earlier specifically on Article 235 to deal with the question outlined in that article, where the Community seeks to do more things, to attain more objectives, and finds that it does not have the powers under the treaty, so that certain procedures are set in motion that generate more powers. Presumably, some of those might go to the Assembly.
      One of the questions that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber have asked, among many others of some legal complexity, is whether that means that if the Assembly receives additional powers, certain safeguards are provided for the House of Commons. Does that involve a treaty coming before the House?
      I freely confess, as did the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary of himself, that I am not deeply versed in legal matters. The Minister of State would probably concede the same thing. Indeed, that is obvious from his brief comments so far.
      These are very interesting matters. It would be a pity if the Government made themselves more vulnerable than they are already to the charge that insufficient advice has been given to the Committee. We need a legal authority on these matters. That is my opinion. I am not sure that the Minister of State is right to resist. We have given him time. We intervened half an hour ago to ask for someone to be sent for to advise the Committee. In the interests of the House of Commons as a whole, it would be wise if the hon. Gentleman did that.
      Mr. Kenneth Clarke: On a point of Order, Mr. Murton. I ask the Minister of State further to consider what arises from what the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was saying about the need for a ruling on the definition of an international agreement for the purpose of the new clause. Is an
      836
      agreement between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament an international agreement within the terms of the clause? If, for instance, the Council of Ministers agreed not to use its regulation-making power unless it had the consent of the European Parliament, that would be a dramatic increase in the legislative powers of the European Parliament. If the Council of Ministers comes to an agreement with the European Parliament that it will pass no directly applicable regulations unless the European Parliament votes to approve them, is that an international agreement that would come within the terms of the clause? This is an important issue and I think, with respect, that it is probably the point in which the right hon. Member for Battersea, North was interested.
      The Chairman: I must draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that we are getting into points of order that in truth are not points of order at all. A fair amount of the Committee's time is being taken up in that way. I am not saying that the matter is not important, but certain right hon. and hon. Members are desirous of participating in the debate. I suggest that the matter of the so-called point of order has now been suitably ventilated.
      Mr. Spearing: Further to that point of order, Mr. Murton.
      The Chairman: It was not a point of order.
      Mr. Dykes rose—
      The Chairman: On a point of order, Mr. Dykes.
      Mr. Dykes: Am I being called, Mr. Murton?
      The Chairman: If it is not on a point of order.
      Mr. Spearing: On a point of order, Mr. Murton. The hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) has requested legal elucidation of these matters and I back up his request. With due respect to your ruling, Mr. Murton, I think that my hon. Friend's explanation was not consistent with Article 235 and that we need some legal support for the point that he has made.
      The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman is ingenious in raising these matters, but that was certainly not a point of order.
      Mr. Dykes: I am grateful for at long last being called, Mr. Murton. I agree with other hon. Members, irrespective of our global views on membership of the EEC, that the Minister, if I may say so without being offensive, made a pathetic attempt to help the Committee and has made matters much worse. The hon. Gentleman has failed to deal with the crucial question of subsection (2) in the new clause and the definition of an international agreement. That is the core of the trouble.
      The debate has veered to a number of considerations that themselves have changed the tenor and nature of the debate. At the beginning I thought that there were hon. Members, perhaps mostly on the Opposition Benches—I speculate, but I assume that for the purpose of the argument—who were against the clause, in so far as we could understand it in its text, and regarded it as too sweeping. However, as a result of the single-handed achievement of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who has now left the Chamber—it was a notable achievement to have made such a contribution and then to have left the Chamber to exercise a dual mandate—the fear began to develop that the clause was not sufficient. The two conflicting arguments were superseded by an argument from the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), and perhaps on this occasion we must agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Whatever the word that might be encapsulated in an appropriate protecting clause of this sort, I have had increasing doubt about the validity and merit of the new clause as the debate has continued. I have doubt about the extent of its achievement. It would all be set aside by the existing practice, conventions and habits of a thrusting, energetic and modernised European Parliament in future, quite unlike the existing European Parliament.
      I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for being out of the Chamber at the beginning of his remarks. I did not realise that he had confessed his desire, as a result of his deep dislike of this pathetic institution as it now is, to leave this place as soon as possible. The
      838
      debate is crucial in a number of ways if only because the Committee has the opportunity to debate calmly and dispassionately the relationship of the House of Commons not only with the Executive of the United Kingdom, but with the European Community institutions—the three principal institutions with which we are concerned mainly, not so much the Court of Justice—as they develop in future.
      10.30 p.m.
      I suggest that the speculations of Labour Members below the Gangway as to what will happen are gross exaggerations and distortions. By contrast, I see more than just a useful and pragmatic coexistence developing among the various institutions in the context of the logical and calming development of an additional layer of political control through direct elections in the European context that will fit into any national Parliament's future ambitions, provided that it sorts out its own relationships with its national Executive.
      I think that a much bigger problem faces the House of Commons in sorting out and concluding a stronger relationship with the United Kingdom Executive. That is a big problem that anti-Marketeers, irrespective of party, often ignore. But it is interesting to note that the development of Select Committees has gone agreeably the other way.
      As long as the Council of Ministers remains—as inevitably it will under the Treaty—the supreme legislative body that controls finances, it is untrue, wrong, misleading and dangerous to infer that the finances are being controlled in a diffuse process other than through the central decision-making activities of the Council of Ministers. In so far as that will persist unchanged in future according to all reasonable parameters of anticipation of future political events in the European theatre, all these anxieties must, by definition, remain gross exaggerations.
      Mr. Christopher Price: I cannot remember whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place when the Foreign Secretary admitted—and admitted for the first time—that the motive for the Council of Ministers giving way on this year's budget was to avoid a fuss. If the Council of Ministers is so keen to avoid a fuss with the present mangy old sheepdog of the

      839
      present Assembly, how keen will it be to avoid fusses if we have direct elections and the more thrusting Parliament of which the hon. Member has spoken?
      Mr. Dykes: The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He is making a point based erroneously on the careless language of the Foreign Secretary. The giving in to avoid a fuss is the grandiose decision-making of the Council of Ministers on repeated occasions whereby it makes limited concessions to a European Parliament which remains intrinsically weak—I think all too weak, even if not yet directly elected—and which will remain weak even if it is directly elected. There is no way that, even with the commanding heights of politicians from all the other countries, that central argument can be upset in future unless the Treaty of Rome were to be rewritten, changed and turned right round. However, that is totally inconceivable.
      Mr. Budgen: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Dykes: Not at the moment. I think that I am right in saying that, aside from Front Bench contributions, my words are the first remarks of an adherent to the Community.
      I should like to quote from a document called "The Powers of the European Parliament" which refers to a working party which examined the subject. The document calls for more powers, but admits that the reality is otherwise. I must be candid and say that, looking to the future, I would prefer it if the situation were different.
      The document says on page 7:
      "Parliament's formal powers in the case of legislation where the Council of Ministers has the final decision is limited to the right to be consulted."
      Again, the Council will from time to time make concessions and Parliament will express gratitude and will continue on its path.
      Mr. Budgen: On the subject of the attitude of the Assembly, does my hon. Friend agree that many politicans see their primary duty as being, first, to make promises to the electorate and, so far as possible, to carry them out? Most of the promises are in terms of the
      840
      showering of Government money on people—
      Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Goodies.
      Mr. Budgen: Yes, goodies. Will there not inevitably be tension in the Assembly collectively to get together with the Commission to try to get more and more of the goodies from Europe to take back to constituents and to explain to them, first, what splendid Members of Parliament they have been and, secondly, what a marvellous institution it is that provides the goodies?
      Mr. Dykes: There is no reason to disagree with that, but it is the working out in practice and the result that flows from it that my hon. Friend misunderstands. All that is a reflection of the concessions that the Council of Ministers will in future choose to make to the European Parliament.
      I hope that I shall not be misunderstood. I prefer a European Parliament to what I would describe as civilised future power-sharing with a logical relationship with the institutions to be developed with it and for it to have more direct power. I prefer that to be clearly laid down in writing, as is the Community's habit, rather than developed by convention—save in some small areas—so that we know about it.
      I should like to mention a domestic matter about this institution of which I am more fond than the European Parliament. I used to be a Member of the European Parliament, but I am no longer. The inability of this Parliament to scrutinise is a catastrophic weakness vis-à-vis this Executive and not vis-à-vis EEC institutions. As time passes I hope that the European Parliament, represented by conventional political forms reflecting our own domestic political and other groups, will interact with the political forms in this and other national Parliaments and will represent all citizens of Europe.
      I hope I shall be forgiven if my remarks sound somewhat trite, but I do not think that is an unreasonable view for the future and no doubt it can be contradicted by those Labour Members who sit below the Gangway.
      Mr. Spearing: The hon. Gentleman quoted page 7 of the document which emphasises that the Parliament's formal

      841
      power is limited. Did the hon. Gentleman see the letter from Lord Gladwyn in the Daily Telegraph on 14th October in which he said:
      "I see the new Assembly, in fruitful cooperation with the Commission, submitting, by the requisite majority, sensible and constructive proposals in all spheres to the Ministers who will, in the nature of things, find it increasingly difficult to turn them down."
      Is it not as likely that his prophecies will come true?
      Mr. Dykes: I suppose that we could go on indefinitely swapping opinions about the future and failing, perhaps, to gaze into the crystal ball accurately. I ought to return to the new clause and try to relate it to my remarks.
      The logical consequence of the argument that I have tried to put forward, albeit probably inadequately, must be that the new clause is not necessary, as the right hon. Member for Down, South, though for quite different reasons, suggested. But even if that were so, because I am reassured by what I regard as a much quieter future career for the European Parliament than is expected by many Labour Members, I would object strongly to the text.
      I would object particularly because we have had no reassuring remarks from the Foreign Secretary, who was markedly careless and insouciant at the beginning of the debate and thereby made the debate worse. We acknowledge that he may have some justification in that he is preoccupied with Rhodesia and other weighty matters. None the less, he treated the Committee in a cavalier fashion, making a joke of the point that he could not deal with a reasonable, legal explanation of the new clause. Then there was much less of an unwelcome act by the Minister of State, adding to the confusion when he intervened a few minutes ago.
      However, it is not for those reasons alone that I object. My concluding reasons for my objections are these. The Council of Ministers' operational syndrome—as well as its place in the Treaty, and, therefore, its constitutional existence in the Treaty of Rome and the European Community, and its continuation undoubtedly to operate on the principle of unanimity, certainly in respect of all treaty changes in the foreseeable future, that cannot be gainsaid, I should have thought,
      842
      by any hon. Member is the ultimate, 110 per cent. protection.
      Mr. Bugden: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Dykes: No, I should be taking up too much time.
      Mr. Budgen: There is plenty of time.
      Mr. Dykes: Well, I shall give way shortly.
      It therefore renders this new clause, or any clause, completely unnecessary.
      Then we might come to a less strong argument, one in which hon. Members may say "Let us get the strength of the insurance companies around us. Let us have the new clause just in case we need it". However, bearing in mind the anxieties already expressed by some clever constitutional lawyers in the Chamber—and there are many more who have not yet come into the Chamber and who are probably lurking outside but who will come in to give their views of the difficulties about these textual problems and the failure to give a proper definition of an international agreement—all that must mean that this House of Commons, in this solemn Committee of the whole House on the Bill, although guillotined, must deliberately refrain from creating bad law.
      I should be wholly content to rest with the procedures of the House of Commons now, the affirmative orders and definition of treaty orders by which we now, under Section 2 of the European Communities Act, ratify or fail to ratify any of the treaties or treaty changes that have occurred so far.
      I add another reason as my final point—I am trying to be brief. The new clause would also be rendered unnecessary as long as this is logic. I am not saying that other countries do things better than we do. I think that in constitutional matters Britain still leads Europe and many other parts of the world in its practices and constitutional political habits. But, within the context of the Council of Ministers and the continuation of the unanimity principle, one needs, presumably, only one member State to have a provision along these lines to provide the ultimate guarantee for all the members. That must be so.

      843
      Therefore, if any member State, because, for example, it has a constitutional history that is different from ours, has, for instance, a written constitution and something along these lines because the constitutional bodies in that country have decided that it is appropriate, I should have thought that that takes care of all the other provisions as long as the unanimity principle persists.
      There is a country that has that. Perhaps we can for once look with interest to France.
      Mr. Winifred Ewing: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Dykes: I shall give way in a moment.
      In France there were two direct election Bills. One was the election arrangements Bill, containing the administrative arrangements and the laws dealing with the procedure. The other was the constitutional Bill, in which there was a clause—I shall not bore the Committee by reading out all the words, particularly as they are in French—similar in textual characteristics to the new clause before the Committee. That is encapsulated in the French constitutional Bill.
      But that is only because the French had to have that, because they have a written constitution, and it is a clause that also says what the Home Secretary said when he gave the original undertaking to the House—namely, that if there were any increase in powers which reduced or, to use the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), was at the expense of the powers of the domestic Parliament, such and such a procedure would be invoked.
      10.45 p.m.
      Mr. Budgen: My hon. Friend deals at great length and, if I may say so, in a very legalistic way, with the question of treaties, but it is not the case that the real catalyst in any constitution is the budget? It was a catalyst in our constitution. It will be the catalyst within the European institutions. All this talk about the unanimity rule and so on, interesting though it may be in respect of the treaty-making powers, has nothing whatever to do with the budget and its inbuilt
      844
      tendency to expand the power of the Community.
      Mr. Dykes: At the risk of repeating myself, I can only suggest to my hon. Friend that he has misunderstood how it operates. I am not being condescending when I say that, because my hon. Friend is a very clever person and a very distinguished lawyer, but he would understand these things if he had made a closer study of them.
      The Council of Ministers controls the finances of the European Community. The European Assembly or Parliament does not. By way of concessions that the Council of Ministers may have decided to make in relation to the balance and the power-sharing relationship that might conceivably develop in the future—but is now really very marginal, indeed—the Council has, in a series of decisions, given a very limited amount of financial decision-making at the margin, in respect of certain limited items to the Parliament. It was the Council which decided that, and the Council could take those powers away. There will be no structural constitutional changes in the future as a result of the mere fact of direct elections.
      It is because the text of the new clause now departs fundamentally from the original idea or suggestion made by the Government—they said that they would draft something which would reflect the relationship of this House to the European Community—that the Government are in danger of leading the House of Commons into a totally illogical and irrational trap. It will be unconstitutional in Community terms and, much more important, it will not help this House of Commons by one single centimetre to assert its future political and constitutional authority over the British Government.
      Even more important that that in the Community context, it will not help in developing effective scrutiny procedures, which I, as a keen Marketeer—to use that derogatory phrase—believe very strongly to be necessary in the House of Commons. The Committee ought not to allow itself to be led by the Government into a trap which will do the House of Commons no good at all.
      Mr. John Evans: For two and a half years I have had the privilege of representing my party in the European Assembly. During that time, although I

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      am generally recognised as someone who was always opposed to the Treaty of Rome, I have done my best to look after the interests, as I saw them, of the British people.
      The Labour Party is a democratic party and ours is the only delegation to the European Assembly which elects its delegates. Tonight, as a result of the ballot, I shall no longer be a Member of the European Assembly.
      Mr. Spearing: Shame.
      Mr. Evans: I have enjoyed the two and a half years in which I have worked there. At times it has been hard and at times it has been interesting. I do not necessarily agree with the comment made earlier about useless sheepdogs. I wish my successor well. I know that he will do a good job and I expect that he will play a full part in the role of the Assembly.
      For two and a half years I have worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), and undoubtedly for the last two years that he has been leader of the delegation he has done a tremendous job. He made tonight a very cogent and powerful speech in the course of which, as most hon. Members accepted, he shed some new light on various aspects of the Assembly.
      I was disturbed to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown) attempt to suggest that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East was speaking with two voices—one voice here and another in the European Assembly. I am sure that even the most bitter opponents of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East will agree that they have heard him many times putting the very same arguments, often in the face of considerable hostility, in the European Assembly itself. He has argued strongly about the role and powers of the Commission, and he has argued for areas such as shipbuilding and textiles and about the effect of the Commission's actions on them. No one has heard him argue that the powers of the European Assembly should be strengthened, because he is on record repeatedly as being opposed to direct elections and opposed to strengthening the powers of that Assembly at the expense of those of the House
      846
      of Commons. It is a view that I share, and I have always attempted to put forward this argument. I believe that, once we move to direct elections, we shall be in an entirely new ball game.
      I, too, have some suspicion about the value of new Clause 8. I am not a lawyer. Certainly I am not a constitutional expert. But I have the horrible feeling that the clause is giving us powers which in theory we have already. If the Treaty of Rome is to be altered to add to the powers, it must be ratified by the national Parliaments, in theory, and I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, in what I thought was a rather poor performance at the Dispatch Box, was saying "We have drafted the clause in what we hope is a catch-all manner. We hope that it will settle all your problems and that we shall not be taken too far along this road." But, again, I have the horrible feeling that, when similar events occur in the future, if and when that Parliament becomes directly elected, and when we protest violently about what is going on in Strasbourg, Luxembourg or Brussels, we shall have the Attorney-General wheeled in to tell us what it was that we passed.
      I agree with all those right hon. and hon. Members who have said that we should have the benefit of the Government's legal advice, and it will be interesting to see what the future holds in that respect. But one of the reasons for our difficulties is that every aspect of the EEC and its institutions has to be rushed. I do not want to raise all the old arguments about the Treaty of Accession or about the guillotining of this Bill, but no one can deny that EEC matters are regularly rushed through this House.
      We are debating a matter of considerable importance—certainly it will be in the future—but we have this minor debate without the benefit of the Government's legal advice. The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) spoke about our discussing important regulations at a late hour. I remind him that we spent only an hour and a quarter last night on some tremendously important transport legislation which the European Assembly had discussed 14 months ago. The committee of which I am chairman spent more hours than the House of Commons spent minutes discussing it.

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      I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) about the need for the House to improve its scrutiny ability. To say that is to condemn the Treasury Bench. But I suspect that it will be a condemnation of the hon. Gentlement's own Front-Bench Members if ever we are unfortunate enough to have them in office. But I agree about the need to improve the scrutiny arrangements, although I hardly think that that should be followed through to where a directly elected Assembly starts to do the job for us.
      I have heard some hon. Members ask, once we have devolution and elected Assemblies in Scotland and Wales, perhaps even an elected English Assembly—there has been talk about that—and a directly elected European Parliament, what on earth there will be for the House of Commons to do. I have certainly read that point of view in some journals which seem to favour a particular course. In the general question of scrutiny I would hope that this point would be noted.
      If we are to do the job properly, even after the directly elected Assembly is in existence, we must have proper scrutiny procedures. Once the European Assembly is directly elected, that body will undoubtedly seek to increase its powers. One only has to look at parish, district and county councils and listen to these politicians arguing about powers that they should or should not have to realise that once the Assembly is set up in Strasbourg or Luxembourg, the Members will argue very strongly for rights in certain areas where they think that they should be the dominant body on Community legislation.
      It is important to realise—and too many hon. Members overlook this point—that at present there is a link between Members of this House and the Members of the European Assembly. This is an extremely important link which we shall lose once we have direct elections. While it is true that one can do two part-time jobs—although one might be tired, distressed, and have difficulties, it can be done—physically one cannot do two full-time jobs.
      Mr. Budgen: The hon. Member may think that I am being rough on him, but would he also agree that because the British delegation has to treat this as a
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      part-time job, that inevitably stops that delegation, to some extent, from increasing the powers of the Assembly, because it cannot physically do any more?
      Mr. Evans: The point I was trying to make was that the link remains between Members of the House of Commons and Members of the European Assembly. Members of the European Assembly are all aware of the national problems and the background against which they are debating an issue. Members of the British delegation may not agree with each other, but they are well aware of certain economic facts and the problems facing our Government. After direct elections we shall have rather strange characters serving in Europe who will not take any cognisance of the problems of Government and the situation in the House of Commons. There will be an entirely different attitude. It is important that the link we have now is maintained.
      One of the strange things about the Assembly is—and here the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mrs. Ewing) will agree with me—the way in which the Italians stand shoulder to shoulder on Italian issues and the Germans on German issues. They are defending their countries' interests because they are Members of their national Parliaments and are aware of the problems of their national Governments. After direct elections we shall have 410 Members from all over the place representing points of view that do not take into account the problems of their Governments.
      Mr. Dykes: Why should that happen? Is it not more likely that a trilogy of contacts will develop? Is it not likely that we shall have Select Committees from the House of Commons taking evidence from visiting European parliamentarians on matters of policy, party groups meeting here and there, and the directly elected Members meeting Members of this House, irrespective of party, in the European constituency? Is it not logical that things will develop for the good of the citizen, rather than there being the conflict that the hon. Member envisages?
      Mr. Evans: The hon. Member paints an interesting picture. Although I have been a Member of the European Parliament for two and a half ears, and the

      849
      Chairman of the Regional Policy Committee for two years, I have not noticed anyone in this House rushing to ask me my views on certain aspects of policy. It could be that this is my fault. However, I have not noticed the Speaker giving me any special privileges to speak on matters of which I have special knowledge. It may be that in the future when we have the directly elected Assembly these special provisions will be made, but I very much doubt it. All my experience indicates that hon. Members both from my party and the Opposition seem to take very little interest in what we do over there until it is too late. Then they protest about the way policies are going in Europe.
      11 p.m.
      Mr. Roper: My hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) says that hon. Members pay little attention to what is done in the European Parliament. My memory may be in error but a year or 18 months ago, when the Select Committee was examining the Regional Fund with the Lords Select Committee, he was invited to appear before us, and he gave some useful evidence.
      Mr. Evans: On one occasion I received an invitation and attended. But I believe that I am the only hon. Member to give evidence to such a ommittee. Perhaps that was the exception that proves the rule. In the two and a half years that the Labour delegation has been attending the Asssembly and in the five years that the Conservative delegation has been attending the House of Commons has shown little interest until it is too late and the die is cast.
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing: I respect the authority of the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) as a member of the Regional Policy Committee. I pay tribute to him. Does he not see a difficulty in the continuation of the dual mandate, bearing in mind that only two or three days a month are involved that difficulties are caused by travelling and that bad weather can cause delays?
      Does he see why we should lose all these working days just because of the problems of travel? Is he suggesting that everyone should come to London? That would create a problem for me.
      Mr. Evans: I take the hon. Member's point. I come from the North-West of England. My constituency has more electors than any other in Great Britain. I deal with seven local authorities, including a new town. I carry as much of a burden as anyone else. This depends on the individual. I cannot say what others regard as reasonable. I can give only by own view. I should like to see the present situation continued. It would be better if the Assembly continued operating as it does until the Community establishes itself in a way that requires a directly elected Parliament.
      The only arguments one hears in favour of direct elections involve a loose use of the word "democracy." What is meant by that word? If they examine their consciences, hon. Members will agree that pressure for direct elections conies from the Commission—not only from the Commissioners but from those who comprise the bureaucracy in the Commission. They have a job to do and they do it to the best of their ability. But the Commission dislikes the Council of Ministers. The Council blocks progress on problems relating to member States. For example, 67 transport items are blocked in the Council. The Transport Commission is appalled by this lack of progress. National Ministers are well aware of the problems and that is why they are blocked. They are blocked not because Ministers want to keep them there but because of the political difficulties.
      Members of Parliament who are aware of the difficulties in that situation then recognise the difficulties facing the Council of Ministers. But directly elected Members who are unaware of the problems in this House will naturally do what the Commission wants—they will join the Commission in making representations against the Council and ignore all the argument. In speech after speech the Commissioners complain that their power has somewhat declined in the past two or three years—since the Labour Government came to power—and they resent that. They want their power back. They have the power to make representations, but they want the power to make decisions.
      Mr. David Stoddart: In my hon. Friend's view, does this tie up with the remarks that are being made by

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      various Commissioners about the powers of the European Parliament? Let me give him an example. Commissioner Tugendhat in a recent speech said that once we had direct elections there would have to be a shift of power so that the Council of Ministers would have to be made corporately responsible to the new directly elected European Assembly. That is a very serious remark.
      Mr. Evans: That obviously ties up with my experience. My hon. Friend endorses my point. Hon. Members who attend the European Parliament as frequently as I do will know first hand how frequently Commissioners and directors-general indicate that they want to use the Parliament to legitimise their power to make decisions.
      There has been discussion tonight about the budget, but to what areas can the Assembly look for an extension of its power to alter the Treaty? I believe that the new clause gives us powers which in theory we already have. All of us, irrespective of our views on the Common Market, have to recognise what will happen both here and in the Assembly in the future.
      The new Commission was appointed in January last year. There was some argument about some of the Commissioners. It appeared that the new President of the Commission was not happy with one or two of them and had made representations to certain member Governments. Many members of the political groups took up the argument. Their valid point of view was that they should have the right to ask a Commissioner to appear before them and to veto him. Some members of the Assembly were more far sighted. They did not want to stir up that hornets' nest before direct elections had been secured. It might be suggested that the Council of Ministers would veto such an idea, but that would not stop the Assembly from proceeding to a vote. What would be the position of a Commissioner with a negative vote?
      Another point concerns the siting of the Parliament. The Council of Ministers is supposed to take that decision, but if there is a directly elected Assembly, do hon. Members think that the ridiculous farce whereby the Assembly travels from Strasbourg to Brussels to Luxem
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      bourg and back to Strasbourg and Brussels again will be allowed to continue? The Council of Ministers will take a decision. Luxembourg is to build a new Assembly building. I suspect that once the Assembly is directly elected, it will decide to sit permanently in that building. Who is to stop it? The Council of Ministers?
      Mr. Marten: The Luxembourgers are to charge a rent of £6 million a year for that building. Who will decide whether that £6 million is paid? I suspect that it will be the directly elected Assembly.
      Mr. Evans: The hon. Gentleman is plainly correct. Let us look at it from the Luxembourgers' point of view. Their position is clear. The present building there will not house a directly elected Assembly of 410 members, so they are to build a new centre, knowing that it will have to be used. It is not really a speculative venture for them, but an investment. I sometimes wish that this country was a little more thoughtful on some issues as some other European countries are. They seem to look after their interests sometimes a little better than we do ours.
      There are other areas in which the Assembly, without altering the Treaty, can extend its powers. For example, there is environmental policy. The Assembly says now that it can oversee vast areas in a member country. There is logic in that. Again, it claims that it can take measures regarding consumer protection, regional policy and the Social Fund. In these areas the Assembly already recognises the powers at its disposal.
      About 75 per cent. of the Community's budget goes into agriculture, and a large percentage of that allocation is taken up with the EAGGF Fund. There is a strong argument now that a large section of that fund should be transferred into the Regional Fund, which would move a substantial tranche out of agriculture, which is compulsory, into the Regional Fund, which is not.
      These are the areas in which a directly elected assembly can operate. But once it goes into these things, that will further weaken the hold that this House has on taxation and general financial requisitions. The whole question of whether the Commission gets that power is the key to the argument.

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      The Commission wants to break the power of the Council of Ministers. There has been considerable discussion about abolishing the power of veto and having a qualified voting system. There has been an instance of qualified voting—it applied to the transport regulations; they were passed by qualified majority. The Assembly recognises that lessening the powers of veto strengthens the power of the Assembly. But it also strengthens the power of the Commission. The argument about New Clause 8 is rather sterile in this respect.
      It might be legitimate to say that the Assembly's powers should be widened and increased, but as a House representing the British people we want to know how it will extend its powers, why, and who will benefit. At the end of the day, all politicians are elected by the people. This House manages to divide arguments up—for example, if one has the anti-Market tag one can see nothing good coming out of Brussels. But the issues are real and important, and in future, particularly after direct elections, it will be vital to the British people that this House should do its proper job in facing up to these great issues.
      11.15 p.m.
      Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I begin by commiserating with the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans), who, I understood him to say, has been removed this evening from the Socialist delegation to the European Parliament. I have never agreed with his overall views on the Community, and many of the opinions that he finds deplorable, such as those of Commissioner Tugendhat, are those with which I agree.
      However, I have always appreciated the hon. Gentleman's contributions in European matters and I have taken part in debates in which the views of the hon. Gentleman—as chairman of the Regional Committee—have been extremely useful. I take from his removal the comfort that at least the selections of Members of the Assembly will be considerably improved once we move to direct elections, because the system adopted by the Parliamentary Labour Party is evidently a little perverse.
      I agree with much of the analysis of the hon. Member for Newton and of the anti-Marketeers who have spoken. My opinions on the merits of the Bill are
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      diametrically opposed to theirs, but we are not discussing a great and weighty constitutional change which satisfies all the objections of those who oppose the Bill and are fearful of the growth of the power of the European Parliament.
      The Foreign Secretary had difficulty keeping a straight face during parts of his speech, particularly when he was pressed on certain details. It was clear that he had taken the view—rightly, in my opinion—that the new clause did not justify his breaking away from important matters such as Rhodesia to do any precise study of the clause.
      We are dealing with a piece of political nonsense which is an unnecessary addition to the Bill. The new clause is being presented because of an undertaking given by the Foreign Secretary, when he wandered into our first day's debate in Committee, to try to satisfy those who are opposed to the main objectives of the Bill. He rashly believed that the undertaking would satisfy hon. Members such as my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten), the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) and the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) and that the Government might therefore be able to get the Bill through without a timetable motion. I am a fierce supporter of the Bill, and I took the view from the start that there was no chance of getting it through in the face of the opposition of those Members and others without a guillotine, and I ultimately supported the Government on the timetable motion.
      The undertaking got the Foreign Secretary nowhere, but it presented him and his Department with the tremendous problem of drafting a new clause which at least looked respectable so that they could go through the motions of putting that draft commitment into effect.
      I pointed out that the commitment, which was so lightly given, was completely out of order as the Bill stood. and the Chairman ruled that it was outside the scope of the Bill as drafted. It took the Foreign Office seven weeks to draft the amendments—I see that the Foreign Secretary is again having difficulty keeping a straight face and is nodding and I doubt whether that is because of the inaccuracy of what I am saying. Amendments had to be produced to change the Long Title and alter the scope of the

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      Bill, and there must have been a fearful problem in producing a text of the new clause that had any meaning, while the attempt to produce a new clause that matched the wording of the commitment had to be abandoned.
      It proved impossible to express in words which would be legally enforceable a new clause which was confined to increases in the power of the European Parliament which encroached on the power of Westminster. The opponents of the Bill are correct in describing the new clause as futile. We shall see a growth in the powers of the European Parliament regardless of the new clause.
      What I am saying is that I want a growth in the powers of the European Parliament. I do not mind if it is a growth in its powers at the expense of Westminster if it is a growth of its powers with a view to increasing European union, which I believe is overwhelmingly in the interests of the United Kingdom. What I do not think the clause will stop is an increase in the powers of the European Parliament as a consequence of the Bill, but I am still hostile to the clause because I think that it will be a nuisance. It will lead to unnecessary legislation and unnecessary legal wrangles and arguments about precisely what is its effect at various stages in the increase of the European Parliament's powers.
      Mr. Nicholas Winterton: In his Euromania, would my hon. Friend also argue that the directly elected Assembly will democratise the European situation? Does he believe that the Members, representing 500,000 people, can be as closely in touch with the needs, worries and interests of the people of this country as someone representing 80,000 people, as in the House of Commons?
      Mr. Clarke: I shall not be drawn too far out of order. I dealt with some of these matters in an earlier debate. Members of the United States Senate have no difficulty in representing huge constituencies more effectively and democratically than we can represent our constituencies in the House of Commons.
      I also think that it is a valuable contribution to democracy in Europe to have a body to which the Council of Ministers is responsible for the great legislative powers that it already has, which have
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      already been taken away from the House of Commons. We fool ourselves if we think that we can take those powers back to ourselves.
      I do not think that many more formal increases in the European Parliament's powers are necessary. I accept the analysis of many hon. Members who have spoken that it has what it wants by way of legal powers already. Direct elections simply enable it to build on its embryonic powers and develop them by convention and usage, as the House of Commons did in the past.
      The major change that had to be made was to extend the European Parliament's budgetary powers. That has already been done by an amendment to the Treaty which the House of Commons has already approved. I find it astonishing that the Government are suddenly saying with the new clause that any amendment to the Treaties, any new increase of powers by treaty, is to be made by Act of Parliament. That is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
      The budgetary powers were changed by treaty on 22nd July 1975, and that change was approved by the House of Commons on 8th December 1975 under a definition of treaties order. It may well be that the powers are not being used to their full extent now, though on the whole I agree with hon. Members who say that this year's reaction of the Council of Ministers to the Parliament has been significant. The budgetary powers that the Parliament has under that amended treaty are sufficient for it to have control of the purse strings and steadily acquire more political control over the Council of Ministers.
      The one formal change that I foresee is an increase in the Parliament's legislative powers, where it is particularly weak now. That will come about fairly shortly when it becomes the practice that no directly applicable regulations shall be enacted by the Council of Ministers without the support of an affirmative vote of the Parliament. The House of Commons has no powers over Council of Ministers regulations which are directly applicable, so that would not affect the House. But it would make the Council of Ministers answerable to a democratically elected body if it became a convention that those regulations would not become binding on any member State until the European

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      Parliament had passed a resolution to that effect.
      That brings me to the effect of the Foreign Secretary's undertaking and the new clause on the existing powers and any small increases that might still be needed. The clause does not match the right hon. Gentleman's undertaking, given on 1st December last year, when, speaking of the new clause, he said:
      "The clause will ensure that no extension of the powers of the European Assembly which would encroach on the legislative powers of this House can be agreed by the Government without an authorising Act of Parliament."—[Official Report, 1st December 1977; Vol. 940, c. 820.]
      The new clause does not match that undertaking in two important respects that are in two opposite directions. First, the clause is no longer confined to those matters
      "which would encroach on the legislative powers of this House".
      As I have said, I am sure that it proved quite impossible to produce a satisfactory definition of precisely what increases in powers would fall upon the House, but it means that there will be some increases in powers caught by the clause that have no consequence whatever for the House of Commons—for example, increases in powers that flow from improvements in procedure within the European Parliament. Is it argued that they come under the new clause? There could be trivial increases in the powers of the European Parliament that would have no bearing on the House of Commons, but according to the new clause they will require an Act of Parliament before we are able to ratify whatever agreements relate to them.
      On the other hand, increases may be made in the powers of the European Parliament not by treaty, and they will not be caught by the House of Commons. We can have a major increase of power which, for example, takes away substantial powers from the House of Commons, but because it is not made by treaty or international agreement, as defined in the new clause, we will have no control over it. Great increases in powers could come about without a treaty or agreement.
      I cite, but I do not seek to emulate, the argument of the right hon. Member for Down, South when he expounded on the way in which Parliaments increase
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      their powers by convention and understanding and not by formal resolution. Increases in power are obtained by convention and political struggle, and that is largely how the European Parliament will acquire its powers.
      There may be an increase in power by agreement that is not an international agreement or a treaty within the terms of the new clause.
      Mr. Jay: We do not know yet.
      Mr. Clarke: I hear the intervention of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). I agree that we do not know yet, and we want an answer.
      The most important agreement of all would be between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, or an agreement between the European Commission on the one part and the European Parliament on the other. Such an agreement would provide the largest potential increase in the powers of the European Parliament. If the Council of Ministers of its own volition were to agree that it would not enact any regulations unless the European Parliament had first voted in agreement, that would be an agreement between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament amounting to a massive increase in legislative power.
      I believe that the Foreign Secretary said—I speak from recollection—that he does not think that an agreement between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament falls within the definition of New Clause 1. If that is so, New Clause 1 is the biggest piece of unnecessary nonsense that we have been asked to write into a major constitutional measure for a long time.
      Mr. Roper: In reply to my intervention my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said that that was his view. Clearly, an institutional agreement is by definition not an international agreement. If there is an agreement between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, that is between two institutions, two international institutions. It is not an agreement between nations. It seems that such an agreement is inevitably excluded.
      Mr. Clarke: That is my tentative view as well. I await the Minister's reply. An

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      international agreement seems to me to be an agreement between nation States and seems to have no other meaning. If that is so, we are confined to the international agreements that happen to be made by the nine member States as opposed to any agreements made between the institutions in Europe.
      11.30 p.m.
      I shall outline briefly some further matters arising from the new clause which illustrate the silliness of the clause, unless the Minister can adequately reply to them. First, there is the fact that the special proviso is being applied only to changes in the Treaty increasing the powers of the European Parliament. It is extraordinary. I am accused of being a Euro-maniac. I am a keen supporter of the Community, but if one is against it, there are more worrying aspects of possible change than the powers of the Parliament. If the Foreign Secretary wishes to reassure the unreassurable collection of people in the House who object to our membership, it is strange to throw out as a sop proposals which may only change the role of the Parliament. Massive changes in the relationship between the Council of Ministers and this country or the Commission and this country, and, for example, extensions of the Treaty into defence, in which I would be interested, could still be approved under the European Communities Act 1972 by a definition of treaties order.
      The fears of the right hon. Members for Battersea, North and Down, South and of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) about the growth of the Community are not being safeguarded in the slightest.
      Mr. Marten: I understood my hon. Friend to say that he would like defence matters to be brought within the Treaty. That would require an amendment of the Treaty of Rome which would come within the purview of this new clause.
      Mr. Clarke: I do not think that it would. To amend the Treaty to include defence would not necessarily involve an increase in the powers of the European Parliament. An amendment of that kind would be subject to Section 2(1) of the European Communities Act 1972. My hon. Friend would regard that amend
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      ment as much more significant. But, I am glad to say, the Government offer no safeguard on that. They are offering a safeguard on what could be a footling change—it might be an important one—in the powers of the European Parliament.
      Then there is the question of what an increase in powers means. It can imply a value judgment about whether a change in procedure is an increase in powers or a diminution in powers. The European Parliament has the power, by a two-thirds majority, to dismiss the entire Commission. It sounds a big, dramatic power. The main criticism of it is that it is too big a weapon which can never be used.
      Let us suppose that by agreement a change were made to the effect that in future the Parliament would have only the power to dismiss by a two-thirds majority an individual Commissioner. Would that be an increase in powers, as most people applying a political value judgment would say, or would it be a diminution of powers as formally interpreted perhaps by a court, whether English or European? None of us doubts that politically it would be an increase in power, but, as a constitution and legal point, that is the sort of loose end that the new clause leaves behind.
      What would happen if a change were made by international agreement which was put into practice regardless of the fact that the House of Commons refused to ratify the agreement because it was bogged down in considering, say, Lords amendments to the legislation? This is not an unreal point because it has happened in respect of the most significant amendment yet made to the Treaty in this area, namely, that which changed the budgetary powers. I repeat that it was not ratified by all member States' Parliaments until March 1977. The Community did not wait for member States' Parliaments to ratify it. It put the new procedures into practice in 1976.
      Let us suppose that that happened again and the new clause was in operation before that happened. What would we do? What would be the consequences of the fact that the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and the Commission were all acting as though the

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      Treaty were in force and nobody was taking any notice of the fact that the Secretary of State was arguing here about whether it should come into effect?
      Some of my hon. Friends, in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, argued earlier that any action taken in that regard would be ultra vires. I accept that that might be so if such action resulted in taxes being levied or changes in the law being made that in some way were without agreement. But an increase in powers might not have such effects. It might be an increase in powers which resulted in the Council of Ministers no longer taking decisions without the approval of the European Parliament. It might, in effect, be a convention—an agreement to allow the European Parliament to have an extra hand in matters. The Council of Ministers would still do what was required of it by law in this country. It would put a regulation into practice using its powers under the Rome Treaty, but it would decide to abide by an amending treaty and wait until the European Parliament gave it the say-so. Our domestic law would be satisfied. We would go through the idle process of wrangling whether to ratify the Treaty, but all the institutions of the European Community would ignore this ridiculous legislative process.
      The Foreign Secretary said that he found no gratitude in the Committee for the new clause. I suggest that he could not have expected gratitude from me, because I made it clear throughout that I did not want this undertaking and did not want him to table the new clause. Given that he has no gratitude today from any of the anti-Marketeers to whom he is offering the new clause, given that he is unable to answer any of the technical and legal matters that arise from it and given that it would be fairly startling to me if the Minister of State could answer any of these questions—I do not criticise him, because this is an ill-thought-out nonsense to which he cannot give adequate replies—can we not all agree that the whole matter arises from a little mistake and a rather naive view of what was necessary to get European legislation through? If so, why does not the Minister say "We thought we could do it, we were trying to be helpful, but,
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      having taken advice, we find that it cannot be done for many reasons"?
      The clear majority of the House of Commons in 1972 took steps which show all this to be water under the bridge. We had all the crucial arguments about the sovereignty of Parliament when we debated Clause 2(1) of the European Communities Bill in 1972. I recall that I was PPS to the then Minister and was therefore present but silent in the debates that took place on these great constitutional matters in 1972.
      Pro-Marketeers did not shed political sweat and tears on that occasion to have half of it thrown away by silly undertakings given by the Foreign Secretary on a stray afternoon. I hope that the Minister will agree to withdraw the new clause.
      Mr. John Mendelson: The Minister of State was asked by several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), for legal aid. I had no sympathy with the campaign that was mounted about an hour ago, particularly as it came from the hon. Member for Guildford, who voted for and asked his hon. Friends to vote for the guillotine. Now he brazenly asks for more time so that a Law Officer can be brought here. If he had not supported the guillotine, we should have had several days more and ample opportunity to get the Law Officers to come and give us their advice. The hon. Gentleman has no right or standing. Hon. Members should not join forces with him when he makes such political remarks.
      Mr. David Howell: Let me point out, in response to that personal attack, that I asked not for more time but for more explanation. There is nothing unreasonable in that.
      Mr. Mendelson: That is a hypocritical explanation. If the hon. Gentleman wants Law Officers to be present, he should have voted to give them time to be here. He is no more entitled to take a stand on that matter than he was on the subjects in the main debate.
      I have no sympathy either with the speech of the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke). His friendship should warn the Government that they should beware of false friends. With such

      863
      friends, they do not need critics or enemies. They are welcome to them.
      The real purpose behind this debate was not the ludicrous purpose which was alleged by the hon. Member for Rushcliffe. The real purpose was declared by the Government to Parliament and the country—namely, that the Government do not wish the powers of the Assembly to be extended.
      The origin of the new clause—I was the first Member to demand the introduction of such a clause—was primarily the decision of the French Parliament and the French Prime Minister, who introduced a provision in the first place which was much more comprehensive. The real difficulty that we have reached has nothing to do with law. It has to do with the deliberate desire of the Government not to agree to the request made to them on political grounds. Some Opposition Members who agree with the Government have no right to shield behind a hypocritical stance.
      My argument is that the Government have not responded to our request. It is not a question of the Government merely tabling a form of words but a question of their concluding that they do not want to do what was asked of them.
      Because the French Prime Minister, M. Bane, knew that he could not get the law through the French Assembly, he tabled the provision before the debate started rather than, as our Government have done, in the debate. He wanted to assure the Parliament of France that, although the European Parliament might be directly elected if the legislation were passed, the French Government were opposed to the extension of some of the powers of a directly elected Assembly.
      We have not had that assurance from the British Government, and it is what we need from them. All the rest is nonsense. The assurance sought was not a matter of words. Our Government obviously concluded that they did not want to give that assurance. They hid behind the allegation that legally it was impossible to give assurances because we do not have a legal constitution as the French people have.
      This is a subterfuge. It is on all fours with the head of the family who is beseeched by his wife to take her and the
      864
      family on a holiday to the Bahamas, who himself does not want to go and who takes them instead to Bognor Regis. The Government have not acceded to our request. But this debate does not conclude the argument. We shall take it to the people of the country. History will show that the Government do not need the support of the harlequins on the Opposition Benches to help their case.
      Mr. Judd: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) for his brevity. I know that he wanted to say more than he was able to say in the time allowed to him.
      We greatly value my hon. Friend's experience in these matters, and f hope that I can do justice to the one point he made by emphasising that he underlined the fact that there are safeguards beyond what we are doing in Committee tonight in respect of a possible extension of the powers of the Assembly. Extension of those powers will require the endorsement of the Assemblies of all member countries. If my hon. Friend says that the French have better safeguards, the French will be able to act as a brake in this respect as well.
      I shall deal as rapidly as possible with the points which have been made in this discussion because they deserve comment and answer. The hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) spoke of the status of agreements between the Council of Ministers and the Assembly. He was right to say that these would not have the status of a treaty or international agreement. A treaty is an agreement between States, but an agreement between the Council of Ministers and the Assembly would not alter the powers of the Assembly. We have only to refer to Articles 4 and 236 of the Treaty to see this point. It is true that the clause cannot control the matter of greater deference—I accept this point—should the Council or Commission decide to show greater deference towards the Assembly. That cannot be disputed.
      11.45 p.m.
      Another point raised by several hon. Members is the significance of the word "treaty" and the term "international agreement". The fact that both of those phrases have been used in the new clause is an indication of the Government's determination to have both belt and braces

      865
      in this respect. One has only to refer to the definitions contained in the Vienna Convention to see that point illustrated, because a treaty is now understood by that convention to be any agreement between sovereign States under international law, and an international agreement is understood to be any agreement between sovereign States, again under international law. Therefore, by using both phrases we hope that the point is well protected.
      There is only a short time available for me. I apologise for that, but I wanted a large number of hon. Members to have the opportunity to speak.
      My last point brings me to the remarks made by my hon. Friends the Members for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) and for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing). My hon. Friend the Member for Swindon referred in an intervention to what Commissioner Tugendhat had said, and he talked about the position of the directly elected Assembly and the position of the Council of Ministers. In quoting the Commissioner my hon. Friend spoke of the fact that we should see a situation developing in which increasingly the powers of the Assembly would be increased at the expense of the powers of the Council of Ministers.
      The point I wish to make—I shall return to it again—is that that could, of course, happen. That cannot be disputed. But, if it is not to happen, a tremendous amount will depend upon the vigour and determination of Members of the House of Commons and of other Assemblies in the Community. It is ultimately Members of the House of Commons and of other similar Assemblies who must hold their Ministers to account for what they do in the Council of Ministers. The degree to which they hold their Ministers accountable will determine whether they retain their power concentrated in the Council of Ministers.
      I have been listening to the debate on this subject not only tonight but on several occasions. I hope that no one will take offence at what I am about to say, because it is not meant to give offence I have sometimes been a little intrigued by what I can only describe as a certain lack of confidence in the House of Commons about its future role; that somehow, when the directly elected Assembly comes into being, we in this place will suddenly fall away and lose our commit
      866
      ment and vigour. I should have thought that, if the debates in this Chamber have demonstrated anything, they have demonstrated the vim and vigour of the House of Commons at its best in fighting to preserve its rights. I am sure that that is something that will continue and will lead Ministers in the Council of Ministers to have to remember that they are directly accountable to their home Parliaments and Assemblies and, therefore, to retained power in that setting.
      Mr. Nicholas Winterton: The green pound.
      Mr. Judd: With respect, that is a very good illustration.
      I now come to a point raised by the hon. Member for Rushcliffe. He asked why the provisions of the 1975 budgetary Treaty were implemented in 1976 before the Treaty came into effect in March 1977, on completion of ratification by all member States. In the time available tonight, I have delved into the history of this matter. It seems that what happened was that the provisions of the Treaty were implemented only when the Treaty came into force in 1977, though it is true that the Assembly was urging the Council to implement the provisions in 1976 in advance of ratification. The House of Commons approved the treaty in the Section 1(3) debate on 8th December 1975, and the United Kingdom was the first to ratify the Treaty, in April 1976.
      Mr. Spearing: It was not on the Order Paper, though, was it?
      Mr. Judd: That brings me to what I believe has been a central part of this debate. Many important technical and legal points have been made—I shall come back in a moment to Article 235—but, as has happened on several occasions when the House has been debating this issue, inevitably attention began to focus on the real meat of it. This was brought out in, for example, speeches by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price), the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Evans). A contrary view was well brought out in the remarks by the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) and his hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe.

      867
      The meat of the argument was that, although hon. Members are concerned about the constitutional safeguards and niceties, they are more concerned with the political reality. They ask what will happen when these directly elected representatives go to the Assembly and start to work there with the confidence of having been constitutionally directly elected and begin to build up their experience, using more fully than in the past the powers which are already established, let alone acquiring any new powers. It is right that the Committee should be reminded of this concern.
      This brings me back to the point that what in the end will guarantee that the balance is preserved, and what in the end will guarantee that the profoundly important rights and significance of the House of Commons are not undermined, can only be the determination, the commitment and the quality of the Members of the House.
      In the Second Reading debate I put a question to colleagues on the Government side and to Opposition Members, and I put it again tonight. It was that—
      Mr. Stoddart: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for giving way. I noted what he said about the quality and determination of Members of the House of Commons. There is no doubt, as I am sure he will agree, that on the Back Benches there are men of infinite quality and determination. Unfortunately, there are also many Members who, when they get into the Government or into the Shadow Cabinet, forget what they have learned on the Back Benches and are prepared to be browbeaten by the Whips, if I may put it that way, into voting against their own convinced views and against their own consciences. Will my hon. Friend comment on that?
      Mr. Judd: As for the browbeating of right hon. and hon. Members by Whips, no one is better qualified than my hon. Friend to speak on this, with all his years of experience as a Whip. But that in the end is a matter which can be resolved only by right hon and hon. Members themselves.
      The point I wish to emphasise again is that, as we see it in the Government, it is clear, as my right hon. Friend said earlier, that there is no endorsement, in
      868
      anything for which we are calling in the context of the Bill, of the principle of federalism. We have quite specifically rejected the concept of federalism in the context of the European Economic Community. We in the Government believe very deeply that it is through the Council of Ministers that the co-ordinating powers of policy-making within the Community should be exercised and that the Ministers, the Members of that Council, must be accountable to the representatives of their own people in their own Parliaments and Assemblies. That is what we are trying to achieve.
      Before I conclude I should like to revert to Article 235, because it was quite clear that the explanation I gave earlier this evening did not altogether satisfy right hon. and hon. Members on either side. Article 235 states:
      "If action by the Community should prove necessary to attain, in the course of the operation of the common market, one of the objectives of the Community and this Treaty has not provided the necessary powers, the Council shall, acting unanimously on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the Asembly, take the appropriate measures."
      In so far as the objectives of the Community are spelt out in the Treaty, they are included in Articles 2 and 3. But, if we then look forward to Article 4 we see that it provides that
      "The tasks entrusted to the Community shall be carried out by the following institutions: as Assembly, a Council, a Commission and a Court of Justice. Each institution shall act within the limits of the powers conferred upon it by this Treaty."
      Therefore, if the Assembly is to change its way of acting and expand its powers, this can be done only by altering the Treaty, and that brings us back to Article 236.
      Mr. Spearing: Does my hon. Friend agree that Article 235 permits the Council, acting unanimously, to increase the ambit if its powers and that, in so far as it does that, the Commission's power to initiate is as wide as that of the Assembly's power to criticise, to comment and to act as an advisory body?
      Mr. Judd: There is no point in trying to pretend that the clause is other than what it is. It deals specifically with the powers of the Assembly. The influence of the Assembly is a different issue, and I have just described as honestly as I can

      869
      how I believe the balance can be maintained in that respect. I believe that it will be maintained in the long run only by the determination of hon. Members of the House and similar Assemblies throughout the Community.
      I must now deal with the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee). It is part of his consistent and passionate criticism over many years of the EEC Treaties which, in his view, bestow on the European Court of Justice jurisdiction regarding the meaning or effect of the basic EEC Treaties.
      Acceptance of these Treaty provisions is, I am sure my hon. Friend will agree, a fundamental aspect of Community membership. He may not like Community membership—he may be against it—but it is a fundamental aspect of Community membership. Despite my hon. Friend's challenging reference to the European Community's right to interpret the provisions of the basic European Community Treaties, I believe genuinely that the anxieties which he expressed about the clause in its present form are ill founded.
      It is most unlikely that the clause will give rise to legal disputes. It is simple and precise. I do not foresee difficulty for this Government or for a successor Government in interpreting it. To disregard it would be a flagrant breach of a legislative provision binding on the Crown. In the unlikely event that there were any question about whether a Community Treaty required the prior approval of Parliament under the clause, proceedings could be brought in our own courts to prevent Ministers proceeding to ratification or to obtain a declaration that a
      Treaty which had already been ratified was not binding on the United Kingdom. Our courts would have jurisdiction to determine such proceedings. There would be no appeal as such from a decision in our courts to the European Court of Justice or any court outside the United Kingdom.
      However, it is conceivable, though very unlikely, that during the course of such proceedings in a United Kingdom court a question of interpretation might arise about whether a particular Treaty increased the powers of the European Assembly. In such an event, a United Kingdom court could, if it considered a decision on the matter necessary to enable it to give judgment, refer it to the European Court of Justice for a preliminary ruling as to interpretation of a particular Treaty. A court of last resort, such as the House of Lords in United Kingdom law, would be obliged to refer the matter to the European Court for a preliminary ruling on interpretation if it considered a decision on that matter necessary to give a judgment.
      Mr. Spearing: That was not on the Order Paper, was it?
      Mr. Judd: We cannot alter the position, as this would be in breach of the existing provisions of the Treaty of Rome—
      It being Midnight, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Order [26 th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 101. Noes 7.

      Division No. 96]

      AYES

      [12 midnight

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Atkinson, Norman

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Kerr, Russell

      Bates, Alf

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Kinnock, Neil

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Lamond, James

      Body, Richard

      George, Bruce

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney )

      Gilbert, Or John

      Lee, John

      Budgen, Nick

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Le Merchant, Spencer

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Graham, Ted

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Lever, Rt Hon Harold

      Cohen, Stanley

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Luard, Evan

      Coleman, Donald

      Hardy, Peter

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Cowans, Harry

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      McCartney, Hugh

      Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Dell, Rt Edmund

      Horam, John

      Madden, Max

      Dormand, J. D.

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Hurd, Douglas

      Marten, Neil

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      English, Michael

      John, Brynmor

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Judd, Frank

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Mendelson, John

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Sandelson Neville

      Tinn, James

      Moyle, Roland

      Sever, John

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Viggers, Peter

      Newens, Stanley

      Skinner, Dennis

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Noble, Mike

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Ward, Michael

      Ogden, Eric

      Snape, Peter

      Watkinson, John

      Owen, Rt Hon Or David

      Spearing, Nigel

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Stallard, A. W.

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Percival, Ian

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Stoddart, David

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Strang, Gavin

      Woodall, Alec

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Roper, John

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Mr. Joseph Harper and

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Mr. Thomas Cox

      NOES

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Newton, Tony

      Mr. Hugh Dykes and

      Rhodes, James R.

      Mr. Kenneth Clarke.

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Clause read a second time.
      The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Midnight.
      Clause added to the Bill.
      It being after Midnight, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again, pursuant to Order [26 th January.]
      Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.

  OPPOSITION PARTIES (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE)
  Motion made,
  That the Resolution of the House of 20th March 1975 shall have effect from 1st January 1978 with the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph 2 of that Resolution:
  `That for the purpose of determining the annual maxima of such assistance the following formula shall apply:
  £550 for each seat won by the party concerned plus £1.10 for every 200 votes cast for it at the preceding General Election, provided that the maximum payable to any party shall not exceed £165,000.' [Mr. Snape.]
  Hon. Members: Object.

  SERVICE MEN'S FAMILIES (REGISTRATION FOR VOTING)
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Snape.]
  12.12 a.m.
  Mr. Peter Viggers: My purpose is to raise the issue of registration for voting purposes by Service men and their families, and in this connection the spouse of the Service man or woman is the relevant factor. I shall talk about Service men and their wives for convenience.
  Frequent moves including overseas service have created special problems for Service families in voting and attempts have been made over the years to improve the position. When last considered by the Speaker's Conference in 1973, voting by Service personnel had fallen to 25 per cent. of those eligible. This was a serious situation and the Conference decided that something should be done about it.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) introduced a Private Member's Bill incorporating provisions about Service men and their wives agreed by the Speaker's Conference. It became the Representation of the People (Armed Forces) Act 1976. By this Act all Service men and wives for the first time had the right to register as Service voters on the basis of one registration lasting for the whole of the Service career.
  But the Act went further than giving the right. It provided that Service men and their wives had to register as Service personnel, failing which they would lose

  873
  their votes. They were not eligible to be included as civilians on the normal form of registration for voting. A special Service voting form has to be attested by the appropriate person, which includes an officer or non-commissioned officer of sergeant or above, Government official, and so on.
  I maintain that the Act has backfired very seriously. I congratulate those who introduced it originally, but defects in the drafting have become apparent. The Act, which was intended to help Service personnel, has aroused fury and bitterness for a number of reasons. First, a wife has to rely upon a husband to provide the special Service form. I am aware that Service establishments have sought to post forms to wives, but the wife still has to rely upon her husband for it. The husband might be away from home on overseas service, or he might be separated or divorced from his wife.
  The wife needs to have the form attested. She cannot go through a standard procedure. She needs actually to attest the form and this must worry some people who do not like Government forms. There are some 2 million people in this country who are illiterate or virtually illiterate and do not like Government forms. To them this extra procedure is a disincentive to register for voting.
  Then there is the point that when registration eventually takes place the letter "S" is put against the name of the individual showing that he is a Service voter. Many Service wives object to this. Their objection is based on the fact that wives regard themselves as civilians.
  I want to quote from some of the very large number of letters I have received on the subject. All of them were unprompted. I am aware of no concerted campaign. They are from individual people expressing their opinions. One correspondent writes:
  "Many of us object most strongly to being referred to as a 'Service-man's wife'—or husband—as we would object to being listed as a dustman's wife, solicitor's wife, etc.—we are people in our own right—my husband would not appreciate it if he were classed as a `Secretary's husband'. Civilians do not have to declare their husband's occupation before being placed on the Electoral Roll—why then should we be discriminated against in this way?"
  874
  Another letter says:
  "This week I have received my form for the electoral register. I find that I am no longer a citizen of Gosport. I am now part of my husband's goods and chattels, for him to decide if I should cast a vote or not.
  Although I have lived here for 14 years (and voted since I was 21) I am also a householder and ratepayer, I still have to wait for my husband to bring home a form that also has to be signed by an attestor.
  I am disgusted about this, and until my husband comes out of the Army my vote will be lost. If I can not be treated like a normal human being then I won't act like one."
  Yet another letter reads:
  "I am a householder and have paid my rates in this town for six years and have always filled in the Register of Electors form and cannot see why I should not carry on in this manner. I am not a Service personnel; I am a civilian and wish to remain that way."
  Another letter says:
  "It is outrageous that, in 1977, some women have to obtain the right to vote through their husbands."
  My final quotation is:
  "I am not a Service voter and I shall never vote in such a capacity. I am a civilian and I demand my right to continue to vote as such. As a civilian I have no need to have someone attest my signature on the registration form; neither do I have to wait till my husband gives me the necessary service voters form. I have not seen any news of this form on the media, so I wonder how many wives in my position have no knowledge that their vote is about to be withdrawn simply because their husbands neglect to pass on the form."
  In August last year, I took up the issue with the Minister of State, Home Office, and received a somewhat bland reply. I pressed the matter, and on 6th September 1977 I wrote to him:
  "There are substantial difficulties involved in the implementation of the present law and this needs to be put right quickly because wives are now being called upon to register as Service voters."
  I asked for wives to be permitted to register as civilians if they wished. The hon. Gentleman replied on 22nd September:
  "It would, I fear, make the system excessively complex to allow persons with a service qualification the option of registering through the service system or through the Form A system."
  Having discussed the matter in some detail with certain specialists in electoral procedure and law, I thing that it would be possible to allow the wives of Service men to register as civilians if they so wished. I maintain that it is necessary that action should be taken on this

  875
  basis because of the scandal now being revealed by the electoral roll. The electoral register of the constituency of Gosport, about which I know most, although it is not exceptional, which will be implemented on 16th February has revealed a voting list so defective as to make a mockery of our electoral system.
  In my constituency there are estimated to be 15,000 Service men and wives, of whom about 5,000 have registered. That is 10,000 lost votes. In one ward alone, Rownen, with a high proportion of Service families, there was a check by staff of the electoral registration officer. Rownen has a rising population, with more houses under construction. But the new electoral roll shows a decrease of 1,600 voters, having fallen from 8,700 to 7,100.
  In Rownen, 1,700 wives of Service men have been deleted from the roll, although a check shows that at least half of them are still living in the houses they were living in last year. In other words, names of people known to be living in houses there are being struck from the register.
  I am aware that the Minister could say that the position before the 1976 Act was poor in that only 25 per cent. of Service men were voting. But that is not a valid argument, because the people whom we are comparing with the previous number are a different set of people. Previously we were dealing with Service men and Service families overseas. Now we have an increased number of people who must register as Service voters. For the first time, we are taking off the register people we know to be resident in a particular property and who wish to be registered as civilians.
  The Minister may say that the wives could have registered and that any difficulties are their own fault. There are two arguments against that. First, I am sure that the wives did not know of the new procedure and that they lost their votes unwittingly. Secondly, I do not think it lies with us to dictate to people. We should make it easier for them to register rather than create an obstacle course for them. The fact that large numbers were not registering should have been known to the Minister and his staff.
  Democracy is on trial in this issue. Relatively little may have been heard
  876
  about it so far, but it the next General Election is held before February 1979, there will be an explosion of rage from those who have been disfranchised. There are 10,000 such people in my constituency. I look at the constituencies of Plymouth, Devonport, where Labour has a majority of 2,259, and Portsmouth, North, where the Labour majority is 1,345, and I wonder how the regulations will affect the elections in those constituencies.
  Since the Minister was put on notice that problems were emerging over the new registration for the Services, to what extent has his Department monitored the position in order to obtain warning of the coming crisis and to what extent did he consider what could be done about it? Will the hon. Gentleman, even now, bring forward as an emergency measure legislation drawing up a fresh electoral roll incorporating the spouses of Service personnel who wish to register as civilians? The Minister cannot simply regard this matter with indifference. He must act.
  12.23 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) for raising this matter. It is plainly one which causes him concern, and I was a member of the Speaker's Conference which examined the problem. I believe that the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles), who is present for the debate, was also a member of that Conference.
  The hon. Member for Gosport has shown the dangers of extrapolating from a particular instance or difficulty into a general attack or tirade. I do not undervalue the hon. Gentleman's remarks or his concern for his constituents, but many of his comments illustrated one of the difficulties. Navy wives are in a different situation from most Service wives. Most Service wives move frequently and the expectation is that their lives will include a number of moves—though perhaps these are less frequent now that there are fewer stations and camps. Navy wives tend, because of the nature of their husbands' service, to congregate permanently in one district.
  There is a difficulty in devising any electoral system that bears fairly on everyone. We have to devise a system

  877
  that does well by most of those it is supposed to help.
  The hon. Gentleman is right to say that in the aftermath of the 1969 Act, which did for spouses precisely what the hon. Gentleman is asking for, there was a low registration among Service men—25 per cent. There was a dramatic drop in the number of Service men registered for electoral purposes. Clearly, that could not be allowed to continue.
  To that Speaker's Conference the Ministry of Defence gave evidence in favour of a once-for-all registration system. The hon. Gentleman said that I had been put on notice. All I can say is that many people were put on notice. The noble Lady, Baroness Vickers, who handled the Bill in the other place, clearly stated the new system a year ago, so it was known that this change was taking place. There was no lobby against it when the Ministry gave evidence or during the passage of the Bill. No hon. Member was approached to raise the matter in Committee, nor was anything raised on Third Reading. I understand that that is not always possible, but in modern legislation there can be almost a difficulty for every solution, and I wonder whether that is what we have here.
  The Bill was a Private Member's Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow). Although most Private Member's Bills have all-party backing, it was, oddly, supported exclusively by Opposition Members. I was glad to be able to give the hon. Gentleman drafting assistance, but in no sense was this a Government-inspired or forced move. If difficulties have arisen, it is through the best of motives. That must guide our consideration of the problem.
  I should like to deal with the question of the principal effect of the 1976 Act, which was to replace annual registration by once-for-all registration for Service men and women and their wives and husbands. This once-for-all registration would be based upon a declaration which would last as long as the elector's Service qualification lasted.
  It was believed that the change would work to the general satisfaction of the great majority of those affected. Because of the once-for-all nature of the new arrangements, the beneficial effect should
  878
  be cumulative, though, of course, in the aftermath of a changeover there will be a ripple. I hope that in a year's time the hon. Gentleman will find less cause for complaint about the Act's working than he does this year. It is too early to say definitely what has happened so far. The new electoral registers will not be published until this month.
  Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: My hon. Friend raised a most interesting point. I agree with the Minister that the change was made to benefit Service people, but will he make clear whether Service voters can be put on the register at any time of the year if they send the form of which my hon. Friend spoke? From the practical point of view, this is the only way in which they will be able to become registered in the current year. Otherwise, the register is made up, and for this year, which is in all probability election year, they will be disfranchised unless they can go through the Service procedure.
  Mr. John: They can be registered at any time by filling in the form. I shall write to the hon. and gallant Gentleman about the matter, but I do not think that there is any great difficulty of that kind.
  Mr. Viggers rose—
  Mr. John: The hon. Gentleman has talked rather luridly about the effect of the Act and it is only right that I should put on record our experience of a much wider canvas, not of only one constituency and one Service but of all Services and all constituencies.
  What I have said must be provisional at this stage, but we believe these to be figures that will come out. The provisional figures suggest that the change effected by the Act has increased Service men's registration from about 25 per cent. overall to about 40 per cent. overall. That in itself contradicts some of the hon. Gentleman's comments. As one would expect, the Royal Air Force has by far the highest registration, but perhaps that is an indication of bias on my part.
  At any rate, it is clear that Service men have responded to the change. I believe that wives have responded and will be seen to have responded. It is significant that the highest proportion of wives to have registered under Service

  879
  registration has been Navy wives. Therefore, there is not the resistance on the part of many Navy wives, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, to being described as Service wives. We cannot compare the number of wives registered as Service voters because there is no comparison.
  The change will have a cumulative effect. I hope that next year the situation will be even better than it is this year. I believe that the system will work to the benefit of Service men and their wives. When wives accompany their husbands overseas—the hon. Gentleman did not say anything to contradict this—they are registered as Service voters, which they accept quite amicably. They do not consider that it is an affront to their citizenship to be so registered.
  Difficulties sometimes arise with overseas postings that involve those with a considerable amount of expertise in electoral matters in the Home Office. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, having dealt with electoral matters over many years, we are not bereft of expertise ourselves. It is in dealing with those overseas that we experience such difficulties as multiple registration—in other words, people being registered in more than one place. There are those who are not registered in any place because of the falling-between-two-stools or three-stools syndrome in the event of overseas postings. That is the sort of problem that we see precluding the optional registration that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to publicity. I have examined this matter with the Ministry of Defence in preparation for the debate. In so far as it is humanly possible to draw to the attention of people the benefits of registration, those steps have been taken. It may be that not every step has been taken, but so far as humanly possible everything has been done in the run-up to the first working of the Act. Service units have devoted a considerable amount of time and manpower to the undertaking of that work and to the information that is sent out.
  Wives are not unique in the sense that they depend on their husbands. The head of the household always has to register the voters in his household. That has led to a considerable amount of friction, particularly with children who are left
  880
  off the register. There is the problem of dependants in the wider sense of the word—the hon. Gentleman will know what I mean.
  Posters were prominently displayed as well as advertisements in Service publications, such as "Navy News," "Soldier" and the Royal Air Forces publication. Electoral registration officers in areas with Service establishments or quarters have taken special steps to ensure that they were aware of the new arrangements. In Gosport the electoral registration officer wrote in October and November to all Service married quarters in the borough and followed that up in those households where a Service man had registered but his wife had not. Whatever else is said, I do not think that there can be criticism on the grounds of lack of publicity or of effort. It may be possible, with cumulative experience, to improve on that. However, no criticism of the initial effort is warranted.
  I come to the question of phrases such as "losing my right of citizenship". Registration as a Service voter does not involve any reduction in civic or civil rights. Indeed, in many ways it has advantages. The hon. Gentleman, because of the special situation of the wives he has met, in particular, ignored the importance and advantage to many Service wives of having postal or proxy votes by reason of being registered as Service voters.
  I have been asked a couple of specific questions. First, I have sufficiently answered the question about monitoring in dealing with the figures. I promise that when we have a more complete picture of what the register will bring forth I shall write to the hon. Gentleman personally to tell him what the proportions are, who have finally registered up to the February completion of the register and what increase in Service votes that has brought forward.
  On the question of emergency legislation I must tell the hon. Gentleman quite candidly that I am not prepared to introduce further legislation when the present legislation has had at best an incomplete chance of proving itself. This House does itself no credit if it rushes round chasing its own tail without having had sufficient experience of the subject revoking laws which it has just passed and carrying out new experiments which it

  881
  discards equally quickly. We must have patience in this matter.
  However, I promise to look at two particular matters. First, I promise to look at the question whether any improvements can be made on the subject of information. The Ministry of Defence will consider whether more can be done on a nationwide basis to ensure that all Service men and their wives are aware of their rights. There comes a time when one cannot dragoon possible voters into registering for their rights. It is for the individual elector to recognise that he has a duty in the matter. We would all unite in saying that we cannot take initiative from the individual voter, but we shall consider whether there is something we can do to help in the dissemination of information.
  Secondly, the hon. Gentleman mentioned several times the question of attestation. Although it is a minor irritant, I take it that he agrees that it can be a real irritant. I promise to consider whether it is necessary for a Service wife
  882
  to change her declaration of attestation and whether it should be retained.
  With those assurances and with the at least provisional assurance that I am able to give on a nationwide basis that the figures, so far from showing a great decline in registrations, are showing some hopeful signs but must be firmed up when we know the final state of the registers, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be content to know that we shall do anything that is reasonable in this matter. However, I cannot promise, particularly in view of the position about legislation, to introduce a new Bill when we realise, having considered the matter, as the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester has, in the Speaker's Conference, that there is no scheme we could devise which would please everyone in every Service situation. We must try to please the majority, and that I believe the Act does.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes to One o'clock.

  LAND REGISTRATION
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
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  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
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  CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (ROYAL COMMISSION)
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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ENERGY
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TRANSPORT
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FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
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INDUSTRY
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ENVIRONMENT
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OVERSEAS DEPARTMENT
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WALES
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  Local Government (Public Relations)
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NATIONAL FINANCE
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  Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976
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  Gross Domestic Product
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  Employment
  Employment
  Pay Settlements
  Pay Settlements
  Public Expenditure
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  Profit Sharing
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  Share Incentive Schemes
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  Deposit-taking Institutions (Licensing)
  Deposit-taking Institutions (Licensing)
  Child Allowances
  Child Allowances
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Firearms Certificates
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  IRA Demonstration (Londonderry)
  IRA Demonstration (Londonderry)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Worcester):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

EAST GERMANY: MILITARY INFORMATION
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on their policy with regard to the supply of military information to East Germany.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, it is not Her Majesty's Government's policy to supply classified military information to East Germany.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, do we make any distinction between the classified information which we pass to East Germany and to West Germany, since the two processes seem to have the same effect?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the views of the noble Lord are somewhat obscure. But certain unclassified information may be released to East Germany through open publications or as the result of the signature by the United Kingdom Government to the Helsinki Final Act.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, if the noble Lord will permit me to say so, that is not what I was referring to. We have now had some 20 years' experience; anything which we pass to West Germany is taken and passed to East Germany by the East German Secret Service.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, if my noble friend has any evidence of this, he ought to tell the House formally.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, has not the House been told often enough?

POLITICAL PARTIES—AID: HOUGHTON REPORT
3.2 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they have made in the consideration of the Houghton Report on Financial Aid to Political Parties.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, this report remains under consideration; but the Government are not yet able to announce their conclusions.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, in matters of forward thinking, I am usually far ahead of Her Majesty's Government? Does my noble friend realise that in the United States, Canada and every Parliamentary democracy in Europe, forms of State aid are given to political Parties? Is he aware that one of the fundamental weaknesses of this country is the division, politically and industrially, between the two vested interests of capital and labour, and that to have political Parties financed by vested interests is a bad thing for the nation?
Lord PEART: My Lords, the noble Lord, who was chairman of the committee which investigated this matter and produced the report, must appreciate that there are many varied opinions regarding what is right for democracy. Many strange organisations may get certain subventions—who knows?

RHODESIA: CURRENT NEGOTIATIONS
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, it may be a pro-forma matter, but may I

853
ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper?
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a full Statement on the situation in Rhodesia and on the current negotiations.
The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, with the right honourable and noble Lord's agreement and by leave of the House I shall repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend at a convenient moment after 3.30 o'clock.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, while confessing that there is a certain satisfaction in having scored a "bull" at four weeks distance, may I, nevertheless, ask my noble friend whether he is aware that the consequence of my having done so is that if I defer all my scintillating supplementaries to the Statement, the top brass, on the Opposition Front Benches tend to have a certain take-over procedure? May I ask, therefore, whether I shall be looked upon with a certain degree of indulgence if indeed I do that?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am quite sure that the noble Lord does not need my or anybody else's indulgence and is quite capable of looking after himself. As to top brass, I think that we would agree that he is top brass himself.

BRITISH RAIL: NIGHT SLEEPERS
3.5 p.m.
Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the national Railway Board intend to curtail the night sleeper trains on the East Coast route between London, Berwick, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, British Rail inform me that they have no such intention.
Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness to inform the Railway Board that this will be a great relief to a great many people, both in this House and in other houses? The rumour was rife that they were going to make considerable alterations on the East Coast route. I thank the noble Baroness very much indeed.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, while being glad at the Answer which has been given, may I ask whether, as the Central Transport Consultative Committee is the main consumer body in this field, and as last November it received additional powers enabling it to cover the whole of Britain, if such matters were to arise in future, they would be referred first of all to this Committee before any decisions were taken?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, I would have thought so; but I am not certain of the answer, without notice. I shall look into the matter and write to my noble friend.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, while the whole House will welcome the Answer of the noble Baroness, is she aware that the only rail route South from Inverness for about four days during and after the blizzards last weekend was via Aberdeen and the coast route? This route is needed as an alternative, and I was on the first train that successfully came round by Aberdeen for nearly 19 hours. With other passengers, I was very glad to have a sleeper. Is the noble Baroness further aware that I have no intention of complaining that the train was late, because all the passengers appreciated that it was the only way of travelling South from Inverness in the weather conditions of last weekend?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, while endorsing most of what the noble Lord said, I should like, from the Dispatch Box, to express our appreciation for the way in which everyone rallied round in the terrible conditions of last week, and pay our tribute to the railwaymen and other organisations who did at least keep the railways moving.

RHODESIA
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts said, and assisted by the "bull-scorer" on the Cross-Benches, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend will repeat a Statement on Rhodesia.

ROYAL ASSENT
3.7 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Measures:
Dioceses Measure,
Parochial Registers and Records Measure.

GUN BARREL PROOF BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MEDICAL BILL [H.L.]
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, on the passing of this very important Bill, I should like to express appreciation for what the Government have done during the Bill's passage through this House. I should especially like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and his colleagues for a great deal of personal attention given, and my noble friend Lord Hunt
856
of Fawley for the very great care with which he moved and redrafted a whole series of Amendments. They will be of great value to both the public generally and to the professions in particular.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, it is not my intention to keep your Lordships for any length of time, but I should like to say that those of your Lordships who have followed the passage of the Medical Bill through this House will realise that it was not exactly uneventful. Since that Second Reading the Government have been able to get a good deal of agreement and help and, as I said at Report stage, the Bill was very substantially extended. The Government, in order to accommodate the extent ion, did in fact, with your Lordships' consent, amend the Long Title so that, when it goes to another place, it will be possible to cover nearly all the recommendations of the Merrison Report in the Bill.
I think the only thing I wish to say, apart from that, is that so much has been accomplished in so little time, because three months ago it seemed quite inconceivable that we should be able to get such substantial agreement as was ultimately achieved. So far as I personally am concerned, there has been no other occasion since I have been a Member of your Lordships' House, so far as I can remember, when the Opposition have got everything they asked for—it is the very first time.
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

COMMONWEALTH DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
NORTHERN IRELAND (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

JUDICATURE (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
3.13 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ABERDARE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [The High Court]:
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 2, line 8, leave out ("five") and insert ("six").
The noble Lord said: This is a probing Amendment to find out more about the workload which will fall upon the judges of the High Court in Northern Ireland. Paragraph 60 of the MacDermott Report recorded that the number of actions begun by writ, set down and disposed of by the Supreme Court increased from 129 in 1927 to 832 in 1968, with a very sharp increase in the last few years of those statistics. The Committee added that the demands on judicial time of the assizes and the Belfast City Commission had increased, and that the trend of an increasingly heavy workload did not seem likely to be reversed.
It would be interesting to know whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has more up-to-date statistics for the number of actions set down and disposed of by the Supreme Court, and whether he can perhaps give us an assurance that the increase in the number of judges provided for by Clause 2 will be sufficient to meet the workload of the High Court sitting in its three Divisions. Of course, in addition to a statutory duty to sit in the Court of Appeal in criminal cases upon the request of the Lord Chief Justice, the High Court judges are to sit in the Crown Court. Again, I should be grateful for an assurance that, so far as can be foreseen, this duty is provided for
858
within the number of High Court judges which is to be included in Clause 2.
I said that this was only a probing Amendment; it is so, of course, because Clause 2(3) provides an order-making power for the variation of the maximum number of puisne judges. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment would increase from five to six the maximum number of puisne judges who may be appointed in Northern Ireland. Although the statutory maximum at present is five, there are in fact at this time four puisne judges in post in Northern Ireland. However, because the members of the Court of Appeal and the Lord Chief Justice himself willingly undertake, as a matter of course, first instance work of all kinds in Northern Ireland, there are effectively eight judges on call for the disposal of the civil business of the High Court. I am aware that there is concern, first, about the extent of the workload, to which the noble Lord has referred, and, secondly, about the backlog of civil actions awaiting trial in Northern Ireland. I have little doubt—and indeed it is apparent—that these are the matters which have prompted the noble Lord to move this Amendment to increase the judicial strength in Northern Ireland.
However, only on rare occasions would the existence of a ninth judge enable the number of cases listed per day and per week to be increased. The governing factors are the size of the Bar, the number of practising senior counsel, which now totals 23, the heavy commitment of the Bar to the duty of prosecuting and defending at the Belfast City Commission, mainly in terrorist-type cases, and the need to ensure that the litigants receive from their counsel the degree of attention and standard of service which justice demands. Happily, over 80 per cent. of the actions which are set down are settled. Approximately 60 actions per week are listed, and the number is sometimes more, which imposes a considerable strain on the Bar. If the number of cases listed is increased beyond a certain critical level, the experience is that fewer cases come to be settled, which is the most undesirable consequence. More time is therefore taken by judges and counsel and a log jam develops, with the result that fewer, and not more, cases are finally disposed of.

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I am afraid I cannot give the statistics for which the noble Lord has asked—they are not immediately available—but I will write and give him particulars. I will, of course, discuss with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice the advisability of making further appointments, but I am afraid that, as I have indicated, an increase in the number of High Court judges will not inevitably help to solve the problem.
However, I should like to add one encouraging point, which is that with effect from last September the number of sitting days of the courts has been increased by 20: from 168 working days to 188 working days in the year. That is bound to help, but the full effect of that change has not yet made its impact. Finally, as indeed the noble Lord has indicated, the provisions of Clause 2(3) of the Bill enable the maximum number of puisne judges in Northern Ireland to be increased by an Order in Council. That is a relatively straightforward and expeditious procedure and, if I find in the future, and am so advised by the Lord Chief Justice, that a further appointment will be necessary, or a further increase in the available number is necessary, I will of course take the necessary action to ensure that there are no avoidable and undue delays in the administration of justice in the courts.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the reply which he has given me. He has, of course, pointed out that, in effect, there is one more judge available in the High Court than was considered by the MacDermott Committee 11 years ago to be the necessary minimum, and I am comforted in that reflection. I am also satisfied that the noble and learned Lord, in consultation with the Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland, will always be able to keep this matter under review by using the order-making power which is included in the clause. When, at the end of his remarks, the noble and learned Lord gave the information that the number of sitting days had been increased by 20, I felt that, in considering this Bill in Committee, it was perhaps well to remember the weight of work which these days falls upon the Northern Ireland Judiciary. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Further assistance for transaction of judicial business]:
3.21 p.m.
The Lord CHANCELLOR The Lord CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 3, line 41, leave out from first ("Court") to end of line 42 and insert ("or the Court of Appeal").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment which will bring Clause 7(1) into line with Clause 7(2) of the Bill. It leaves out the reference to the Crown Court, because that reference is unnecessary. A person who is appointed under Clause 7 to sit and act as a judge of the Court of Appeal or of the High Court will automatically be able to be a judge of the Crown Court by virtue of Clause 4(1) and (2). I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 4, line 8, leave out ("Secretary of State") and insert ("Lord Chancellor").
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment, I should like, with your Lordships' permission, to speak to Amendments Nos. 8, 9, 11, 12, 18 to 30 inclusive, 32, 33, 34, 35, 37, 38, 39, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 48, 49, 51, 52, 58 to 62 inclusive and 68 to 72 inclusive. Until now, the Northern Ireland courts have been administered by three separate court services, and, since direct rule began in 1972, the overall responsibility for those court services has been shouldered by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Clause 69 of this Bill establishes a unified court service and the effect of this Amendment—and the very long list of Amendments which I asked permission to speak to includes Amendments to Clause 69—will be to place ultimate responsibility for the new court service in Northern Ireland with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor.
The main purpose of this Bill, as the noble and learned Lord explained on Second Reading, is to replace the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act 1877, and to bring the structure of the courts

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in the Province on to broadly the same basis as the courts in England and Wales, where the overall responsibility for the courts rests with the Lord Chancellor. There is good reason for so placing that responsibility, for the person and the office of the Lord Chancellor are a guarantee, and are seen as a guarantee, of the independence of the judicial process. Certainly, the noble and learned Lord speaks, when he is called upon to do so, as a Government Minister, as indeed the noble and learned Lord is doing from the Government Front Bench today. But he also occupies, in the noble and learned Lord's own words on Second Reading, an office of great and historic importance; an office which is seen to uphold the independence of the court.
Nowhere is it more crucial than in Northern Ireland that this independence should remain, and should be seen to remain unimpaired. Brought in increasing numbers to trial, terrorists and criminals, often operating under the cloak of terrorism, are forced to fall back on the only last desperate option which they have; that is, to try to discredit the law. Your Lordships will be familiar with stories of accused people who refused to recognise the court, of the intimidation of witnesses and of assassination attempts upon the Judiciary. It is a small matter, for those who would gain their ends by such means, to try to criticise the administration of justice on the flimsiest of excuses. The very thorough provisions of this Bill are, I suggest, proof against any such criticism, provided that the ultimate responsibility for all the courts rests with the Lord Chancellor.
That is really the case for the Amendment, but there are just two quick points which I should like to add. First, this Amendment is no reflection whatsoever upon the responsibility for the administration of the courts in Northern Ireland of the Secretary of State, which has extended over the last five and a half years. That responsibility has been at all times faithfully discharged. Secondly, it is true that in the 1973 Constitution White Paper the Conservative Government of the day forecast a unified court service which would be under the Secretary of State. But that forecast was made in very different circumstances. Less
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than a year before that, as a purely emergency measure, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland had assumed responsibility for all executive functions in Northern Ireland, and the plans for trying to devolve those functions had only just begun to unfold. But, more important, under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, which followed the White Paper, the Secretary of State was made arbiter of what the Northern Ireland Assembly could and could not legislate for with respect to the courts in Northern Ireland. It was in that context, rightly or wrongly, that it was envisaged that the Secretary of State would retain executive control of the Northern Ireland court service.
That situation which I have sought to describe has now totally changed and, on the occasion of this major Judicature Bill, the first restructuring of the Supreme Court for over 100 years, I hope that the noble and learned Lord will feel able to accept the rather backhanded compliment which is intended by this Amendment, and will give the unique combination of his judicial and political authority to the overall responsibility for the Northern Ireland court service. It will mean extra work for the noble and learned Lord and for his office; that I realise. But I believe it will be seen as a touchstone of that independence and integrity of Northern Ireland's courts which have been maintained so resolutely by both Bench and Bar during the testing times of recent years. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Since the matter was discussed on Second Reading, I have given the most careful consideration to the question which is raised by this and the multiplicity of connected Amendments that we are conveniently discussing together. The fundamental question is: which Minister should be responsible for the administration of the courts in Northern Ireland. This is obviously a serious and important matter. I continue to have reservations about the proposal that the responsible Minister should be the Lord Chancellor, for the reasons which I adumbrated in the House on the last occasion, particularly in view of my own conviction that the independence of the Judiciary, to which I, of course, attach fundamental importance, is well safe-

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guarded by the provisions of the Bill as drafted.
However, in view of the strong and, I am bound to say, flattering representations which have been so graciously made today by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, by others both inside and outside your Lordships' House, and, in particular, by the whole of the Judiciary in Northern Ireland and, I understand, the legal profession there, who have made it very clear that they are most anxious that I should be the Minister responsible, I have agreed to accept this responsibility, and have agreed with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State that that should be the outcome of our deliberations. I agree with the view that was expressed yesterday in an editorial in The Times that in practice this issue concerns appearance more than reality. I was glad to see it stated in the editorial that it is not seriously supposed that the Secretary of State would take the scarcely visible opportunity that the arrangement would give him to tip the scales of justice.
I should like to make it very clear that in undertaking the responsibility, as I do, I do not for one moment accept that there is any validity in the suggestion that were the Secretary of State to be responsible he would exercise his responsibilities otherwise than with complete propriety. Indeed, this view was generally accepted during the debate on Second Reading. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for the way in which he has made it clear that no criticism of the way that the Secretary of State has been conducting his responsibility in this field is made or has been suggested. The conclusion that I have come to is that if the fact of the Lord Chancellor's having ultimate responsibility and, indeed, answerability to Parliament for the administration of justice would strengthen confidence in the courts and in that administration—a confidence which is, of course, all-important in the conditions of Northern Ireland—I am now very content to accept that responsibility.
The decision that I have now made means that the majority of the Amendments relating to this matter which have been placed on the Marshalled List by noble Lords will be accepted by the Government. Certain of the Amendments are not, however, acceptable. One or two of the
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Amendments—Amendments Nos. 29 and 37, for example—would have the interesting result of requiring me to consult with myself before taking certain action. This is my invariable habit, without any statutory requirement to do so. Another Amendment would have the interesting effect of reinstating a reference to the long defunct Lord Chancellor of Ireland, which would, I suspect, hardly be helpful in present-day conditions.
There are, however, other rather more substantial implications to my acceptance of responsibility for the administration of the courts which will need further consideration. The present balance of responsibilities in the Bill was drawn up on the basis that the Secretary of State would be the Minister responsible for court administration. The functions of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice respectively were adjusted accordingly. That balance will now have to be reconsidered. Minor adjustments may need to be made, but none of substance. An illustration may be found in Clause 5 of the Bill. In subsection (2), Her Majesty may, by Order in Council on the recommendation of the Lord Chief Justice, alter the Divisions of the High Court. If the Lord Chancellor is to be the Minister responsible, it would seem that this function should more appropriately be given to him, although, no doubt, after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice. Clearly this will be a matter for further consideration, and there are other Amendments which will need further and similar consideration.
Accordingly, in the light of what I have said, I respectfully invite the noble Lords who have sponsored these diverse Amendments to withdraw them in return for the firm undertaking that I have given to take over ministerial responsibility for the administration of the courts in Northern Ireland and for the assurance which I now give to bring forward appropriate Amendments for this purpose at a later stage. In conclusion, may I add that the interests of the Northern Ireland court staff will of course be taken fully into account, in consultation with their representatives, as one of the consequences of the actions which follow my decision today.
3.35 p.m.
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: I should like warmly to welcome this very important decision of the noble and

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learned Lord. He has taken on a considerable extra task, but those of us who live in Northern Ireland believe that he is well equipped for it and that he will exercise those powers with his usual charm and efficiency. I am absolutely convinced that his decision will protect the courts from attacks by evil men who wish to spread evil tales. It will further enhance the independence of the court.
It is an important decision in another sense. The Government have shown that responsible and sensible views, properly expressed, will be heeded by the Government. This is probably one of the most important reversals of a Government decision which has occurred as a result of public opinion in Northern Ireland. There have been times when we in Northern Ireland have expressed responsible views but have felt that those views have received very scant attention. This decision reverses that process, and I am very glad that it should have been reversed by the noble and learned Lord in this House.
I do not intend to go over the ground which my noble friend Lord Belstead so ably covered, but I am quite certain, as is everybody else, that a unified court system run by Ulstermen will add only a very slight burden to the duties of the Lord Chancellor. I hope that he will enjoy his work. I feel also that it is a very important decision from the point of view of the constitution of this country. It has further cemented the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore I most warmly welcome this decision.
Lord FOOT: Before the Amendment is agreed to, may I say in a sentence that we on these Benches very much welcome the decision that the Lord Chancellor has made and that we should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, upon having brought this matter to a satisfactory conclusion. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that this was a matter more of appearance than of reality. I fully understand that view. The unfortunate fact about Northern Ireland is that so often appearance is much more important than reality.
It seems to me that the argument that was advanced at Second Reading by those who sponsored this Amendment was valid: that if you were to divide the control of
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the court system between the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State you would be putting into the hands of extremists and evil men a very powerful propaganda weapon. That weapon would be the more powerful because they would be able to say, "In Northern Ireland the control of the judicial system is divided between the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State, but there is no similar division in England. Why is it that we have been picked out in this way?" That would have been an argument with apparent logical validity which would have been of some effect.
Before I sit down, may I say that I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has not made up his mind about Amendment No 29. The noble and learned Lord said that it had the disadvantage that it would require him to consult with himself. I hope that we shall be able to debate that matter. The noble and learned Lord may remember that in Iolanthe there are ample precedents for a Lord Chancellor's consulting with himself. I hope that we shall be able to explore and deploy those arguments when we come to that particular Amendment.
Lord MOYOLA: As one who comes from Northern Ireland and who has been a party to these Amendments, I, too, should like to express my thanks to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for making this concession. Everybody in Northern Ireland who thinks about the matter will be grateful to him. Certainly I endorse everything that the noble and learned Lord has said. There has never been a question in my mind or, indeed, in any right thinking person's mind as to the impartiality of the Secretary of State or of the Judiciary. It is simply, as The Times has said, a question of appearances. I thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor very much indeed.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to noble Lords for speaking on this Amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Foot, made the point that one of this long string of Amendments would place the noble and learned Lord in the position of the Lord Chancellor in Iolanthe. If my memory serves me right, that Lord Chancellor was "highly susceptible",

867
and, if I may say so, the noble and learned Lord today has been good enough to show himself susceptible to representations made in your Lordships' House and to considering very carefully the points which have been put. I should like to thank him for accepting this principle. I admit that the consequential Amendments have not perhaps been entirely easy to draft, and I certainly accept that some of them may be defective. I will therefore, of course, agree to withdraw them, on the understanding that the Government will be revising them to ensure that the drafting of the Bill is satisfactory, and that the Government's list of Amendments will then be reintroduced before the Bill completes its stages in your Lordships' House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am certainly happy to give that assurance to the noble Lord. May I remind him that the susceptibility of the Lord Chancellor in Iolanthe was not to debate in your Lordships' House or to the persuasiveness of your Lordships, but to a far more attractive submission. However, I am glad that the occasion has been used to refer to Iolanthe, to which Lord Chancellors owe so much.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to. Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Qualifications of judges of High Court and Court of Appeal]:
On Question, Whether Clause 9 shall stand part of the Bill?
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord why there is a difference in the years of qualification required for a High Court judge as compared with the Lord Justice of Appeal. Since they are interchangeable, it seems to me peculiar that the qualification for the High Court judge should be 10 years and that for the Lord Justice of Appeal 15 years. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord could explain that.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: The responsibilities, the status and standing of a Lord Justice of Appeal are, of course,
868
higher than those of the High Court judge, and a greater wealth of experience is therefore thought desirable; and it is desirable that it should be in statutory form. That is the explanation.
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: I thank the noble and learned Lord.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 16 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
Clauses 17 to 27 agreed to.
Clause 28 [Jurisdiction with respect to property and affairs of patients]:
3.44 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 12, line 38, leave out from second ("of") to end of line 40 and insert ("persons suffering from mental disorder, persons requiring special care and persons deemed to be socially inefficient within the meaning of section 7 of the Mental Health Act (Northern Ireland) 1961.")
The noble Lord said: First I should reveal to the Committee the reason which lies behind my putting down this Amendment. I understand that the social services in Northern Ireland—that is to say, the four Health and Social Services Boards, together with the voluntary organisations involved in the care of mentally handicapped patients—have not been consulted about the drafting of this part of the Bill. It may be that, because Clause 28 deals with the legal jurisdiction of the High Court in "matters relating to patients", this is a purely legal matter. But all I think I ought to say is that certainly the drafting of Clause 28, and also of Schedule 3 in two respects, has aroused in the minds of some social workers in Northern Ireland, both statutory and voluntary, certain apprehensions, the first of which is covered by Amendment No. 5. Clause 28(3) reads:
"In this section 'matters relating to patients' includes all matters relating to the care and commitment of the custody of idiots, lunatics and persons of unsound mind and their estates and relating to the guardianship of persons of weak mind".
I do realise that this subsection is included simply to clarify the expression "matters relating to patients" which is used in subsection (1). May I say at once that

869
the word "patients" is fully understood and approved and used by those who work with mentally handicapped people. I am also aware from reading the report of the MacDermott Committee, from paragraph 154 onwards, that the Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) Act 1871 sought to solve the problem of definition of mental handicaps by using the words "idiot, lunatic, or of unsound mind, and incapable of managing himself or his affairs" in Section 2 of that Act of over 100 years ago.
What I do not understand is why it is deemed necessary in Clause 28 of this Bill to define "matters relating to patients" by reference all the way back to the Act of 1871, which used those words I have quoted, which are words which are most certainly not used or approved of by anyone working in the field of medicine or social service connected with people suffering from mental handicap these days. In 1961 the Mental Health Act (Northern Ireland) was passed which, broadly speaking, dealt with the care, treatment, control and custody of patients. By a fortunate chance, as it happens, today Section 7 of the 1961 Act defines three different forms of mental incapacity. The effect of this Amendment is to use the definitions included in Section 7 of the 1961 Act, instead of the definitions based on Section 2 of the 1871 Act to clarify what is meant by "matters relating to patients". I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am bound to say that. I have a good deal of sympathy with the spirit of this Amendment, because all in the House know that terms like "idiot" and "lunatic" belong to a bygone age. The difficulty is that much of the legislation which deals with mental health in Northern Ireland is still contained in the Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) Act 1871, and, as the noble Lord will appreciate, at that time these terms were in common usage. A complete revision of the statutory law relating to mental health in Northern Ireland, to take account of social and medical developments over the last 100 years, is currently under consideration with a view to legislation; so this matter will be put right in a fundamental way as a result of this work which is already being undertaken on the legislative proposals which will come forward.
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Clause 28 (3) as it now stands, therefore, has been drafted to take account of the present regulations, and uses existing terms merely as what I might describe as a holding operation until the total revision can take place. As I understand it, jurisdiction in relation to patients is of two kinds; first, jurisdiction over the person of the patient; and, secondly, jurisdiction over his property. The Mental Health Act 1961 to which the noble Lord refers now makes provision governing the person of patients, but the Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) Act 1871 continues to govern jurisdiction over property of patients, and it is that jurisdiction over property which is being transferred by Clause 28 from the Lord Chief Justice to the High Court. However, I hope on the strength of my assurance that this language will be put right before long, that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, may not feel it necessary to press his Amendment.
Baroness FAITHFULL: I should like to thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his explanation and the fact that this matter may be put right at a later date. However, speaking as a social worker, there is some confusion—if I may support my noble friend Lord Belstead—because social workers have to adminster part of the Lunacy Act when the patient is in the community. They also administer the 1961 Act. I think that the 1959 Mental Health Act in England sought to alter the attitude towards mental health and mental illness. The 1961 Act in Ireland equally sought to alter the attitude of mind towards mental illness and mental ill health. Therefore, I wish to support the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, by saying that we very much hope, as social workers both in Northern Ireland and in this country, that this archaic language which is unacceptable and which does not make for good work with mental patients could ultimately be altered.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Faithfull for speaking on this Amendment which makes me feel that it has been worth raising this matter. Of course, I have no intention of pressing the Amendment, but it has been helpful, certainly for me, to get the guidance of the noble and learned Lord

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the Lord Chancellor and also to receive the information from him that legislative proposals for the repeal and overhaul of the 1971 Act could be in sight in the future.
I should like to put one final point to the noble and learned Lord, in case it is possible that this matter may be reconsidered as the Bill continues its stages through Parliament. As I understood the noble and learned Lord, the legislation as regards the person of someone who is mentally handicapped is covered by the 1961 Act: it is a matter for the 1961 Act. The noble and learned Lord then went on to explain that it is, however, the property of a patient which needs still to be covered by the older legislation. I am afraid T have no legal training, but I consulted the MacDermott Report and noticed that MacDermott admitted that Section 68 of the 1871 Act needed certainly to be retained for the time being in that:
"the property and affairs of patients, but not their persons, should follow a judicial determination of mental incapacity",
considering the medical evidence and that these matters should be decided by the Lord Chief Justice or another judge without a jury.
I am convinced that, if 12 years ago the MacDermott Committee was able to say that the only part, so far as it could see, of the 1871 Act remaining effective in this respect was Section 68 dealing with the property of patients, and that in administering Section 68 the Lord Chief Justice and judges should consider "medical evidence and such other evidence"—presumably from social workers—"as may be relevant", surely that evidence and consideration should be within the scope of modern definition of "mental handicap" I do not want to appear to be hard-headed, but I still wonder whether it is not possible to include the modern definition of mental handicap, which is to be found in the 1961 Act, within Clause 28 of the Bill. I shall not press the matter any further. The noble and learned Lord is telling me that it is not so possible, but I hope that he will forgive me for making this final point before withdrawing the Amendment.
The Lord CHANCELLOR: I shall certainly look at the matter. Our difficulty is that the Amendment which is really necessary—namely, an Amendment
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to the 1871 Act—could not be performed within the terms of the title of the Bill. The whole of the 1871 Act is still needed and must be replaced. Therefore, I think that it may be extremely difficult to deal immediately with this problem in this Bill.
As I understand it, the Lord Chief Justice has functions in this field only under the terms of the 1971 Act. He has none in respect of the Mental Health Act 1961. He has the responsibility for the appointment of legal visitors and they are the two senior officials in the Department of the Affairs of Patients which is a Department of the Supreme Court. They are appointed by the Lord Chief Justice to visit patients whose affairs may come under his control. That Department in the Supreme Court is separate from the Northern Ireland Social Services Department, although, of course, they work closely together. I shall certainly look at the matter again, but I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope that in this Bill we shall be able to remedy the matter. However, we shall press on with bringing the legislation of 1871 into keeping with modern social and medical thinking.
Lord BELSTEAD: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 28 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord BELSTEAD: I shall detain your Lordships for only a moment on the same subject as previously because I was going to ask the noble and learned Lord about the meaning of the reference in subsection (2) to "visitors". The noble and learned Lord has been so good as to clarify that matter. However, there is one further point that I should like to raise which falls within the general ambit of the clause.
The 1961 Act in Northern Ireland—Section 1(1)(f)—lays a duty upon the Northern Ireland Hospitals Authority to furnish to the Lord Chief Justice, the Mental Health Review Tribunal and the Department for the Affairs of Mental Patients, returns, reports and information about mentally handicapped patients as the Lord Chief Justice, the Tribunal and the Department may require, in order to

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exercise their functions. Therefore, at the very beginning of the 1961 Act, the medical and social services are linked statutorily with the law with regard to mental patients in Northern Ireland.
Briefly, as I understand it, the procedure is that when a patient is mentally ill and he or she does not appear to have any friends or relations available, the social services are immediately called in. If the patient is already in hospital, the medical officer contacts the Area Board; if the patient is at home, as soon as the problem is realised, a social worker will go and visit and an application for admission to hospital by that person under Section 15 of the 1961 Act will be made. Then one has the procedure which the noble and learned Lord is probably more conversant with than I am, about the property of the patient being looked after by the social services: a committee, technically, has to be formed, which is generally a relation or a solicitor, but if all else fails it may be the social service board for the area, to look after the property of the patient; and then finally it is necessary for the Department of which the noble and learned Lord spoke, to decide about the disposal or the running of the property of the patient.
The reason I raise these matters is that I am surprised that Clause 28 does not mention the statutory duty of the hospitals authority under Section 1(1)(f) and of the social services under Section 73 of the Mental Health Act 1961—that duty is the one to which I referred whereby the social services move in to ensure that all is made right when somebody becomes mentally ill. I am surprised that Clause 28 does not mention those statutory duties which are discharged in the way that I have described.
I should have thought that in this Bill there would be advantage, for purposes of clarification, to record that the health and social services have a statutory duty to notify the Department for the Affairs of Patients in cases where patients are incapable of managing their affairs. Presumably, as I understand it, the chief clerk who is an officer, after all, of the Supreme Court and is registrar of the Department for the Affairs of Patients, has to deal then with the application which is made to him. That is the reason that I have raised the matters at rather great length.
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I am bound to admit to the noble and learned Lord that behind it lies the same reason for which I moved my Amendment. Because the social services in Northern Ireland had not been consulted about the drafting, great surprise was expressed to me about the inclusion of the word "visitors" in this clause. It was because the social services and health authorities felt that it was they who did the visiting that they asked me to raise the matter. I shall leave it there and shall, before we go on to subsequent clauses, ask the noble and learned Lord whether he thinks there is anything in what I said.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising these matters. There may be an opportunity when we come to consider Schedule 5 to examine in greater detail the questions that he has raised. Frankly, I have no guidance at the moment on the matters he has raised but I shall certainly look into them and we will have an opportunity at a later stage, or perhaps even in the course of the proceedings of the Committee Stage today, to revert to the points he has made. If I may leave it like that at this stage, I shall certainly come back to it at some convenient time.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Lord STRABOLGI: I beg to move that the House do now resume in order to take the Statement on Rhodesia.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

RHODESIA
4.2 p.m.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall repeat a Statement on Rhodesia made today in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. The Statement is as follows:
"I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a statement about Rhodesia.
"Together with Ambassador Andrew Young of the United States and the Resident Commissioner designate, Lord

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Carver, I held talks in Malta with leaders of the Patriotic Front from 30th January to 1st February. Lieutenant General Prem Chand, the representative designated by the United Nations Secretary General, also took part.
"The purpose of my talks with the Patriotic Front was, in accordance with Security Council Resolution 415, to enter into discussions concerning the military and associated arrangements necessary to effect the transition to majority rule in Rhodesia. Whereas discussions on these matters had been held since September with other nationalist leaders and with the régime, we had not been able to have detailed talks with the Patriotic Front prior to the Malta meeting. We achieved a much greater understanding of each other's position and ha% e agreed to consider the points made and to meet again at a time and a place to be decided.
"In all these meetings I made clear that Her Majesty's Government, supported by the United States Government, have never wavered in their view that the proposals contained in Cmnd. 6919 represent the best route to independence for Rhodesia and the surest guarantee of peace and stability there. On the basis of these proposals we are prepared to accept responsibility for bringing the territory to independence following elections and are resolutely committed to ensure that those elections would be manifestly free and impartial. If we are to shoulder that responsibility, we must have an assured and supervised ceasefire and, in co-operation with the United Nations, the control necessary to ensure maintenance of peace and good order during the electoral process.
"The Anglo-US initiative depends on the willingness of the parties to the dispute to compromise on their past and present positions, and to allow the people of Zimbabwe as a whole, through fair and free elections, to determine their future. At present the necessary measure of compromise between the parties is lacking and, tragically, and regrettably, it appears inevitable that the armed struggle will for the present continue. The British Government, despite all the obvious
876
difficulties, will continue to work with all the parties, within the framework of the Anglo-US initiative, for a peaceful settlement."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
4.6 p.m.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, the only obvious thing about this problem is that it is a complicated one. There is no simple solution. If there had been a simple solution we should have had one long ago. Of course your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement in this House, but I think I could comment more usefully if I knew exactly what the Government are at this moment seeking to achieve. Mr. Young, though not, I think, the Foreign Secretary, has said that an internal settlement cannot bring an end to the war and might make matters worse. To me, that seems to depend on what sort of internal settlement it is and who takes part in it. One thing is quite certain, and that is that the Anglo-American proposals cannot possibly succeed unless Mr. Smith and the Africans who are now discussing their proposals in Salisbury are prepared to agree to them, and they are not going to do so. As I say, they are conducting their own negotiations in Salisbury at the present time and it would seem to most of us that, in these circumstances, the Anglo-American proposals are virtually dead.
I do not know what the internal proposals, if they succeed in coming to an agreement, will be. We shall have to wait and see, but it seems to me that Her Majesty's Government should at this moment be seeking to encourage Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe to associate themselves with those talks, which apparently show, from what has happened so far, a willingness on the part of the blacks and whites in Rhodesia to come to a settlement and which seem also to have the support of a large body of the people of that country. If I may say so, it would be a great mistake on the part of Her Majesty's Government to get themselves into a position, as there seems to be some tendency to do at the moment, in which they might oppose an internal settlement which would put into practice the six principles—that is, if that is what the internal settlement comes to—which form

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the basis upon which both parties have, over so many years, agreed to give independence to Rhodesia. Because they would be part of the six principles they would be proposals put to the whole people; they would be freely negotiated between black and white. It would be a great mistake for the Government to put themselves into a position where they would oppose such a settlement because the Patriotic Front is not prepared to agree to it.
If the criteria which have been the criteria for so many years are not satisfied, the Government will have to satisfy Parliament as to why those criteria are no longer sufficient. Therefore, I should like to ask the noble Lord to assure your Lordships that the Government are not excluding a satisfactory internal settlement as a solution.
4.10 p.m.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, we must at least welcome the possibility indicated in the Statement, for which we thank the noble Lord, of further talks with the representatives of the Patriotic Front. But it is indeed depressing to hear that, in the view of the Government, the present armed struggle is likely to continue, apparently indefinitely. I do not know whether this means that the present negotiations are dead, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, suggested, but it looks as though they might be. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said, there is no mention in the Statement of the parallel negotiations which are now going on in Salisbury, but, unlikely though it may be, supposing there is agreement in Salisbury based essentially on the reservation of a certain number (to be agreed) of seats for the whites in a new Legislature, plus a separate electoral roll for blacks and whites, would not the Government at least consider such a proposal, even if it does not provide, as indicated in the Cmnd. 6919, for a United Nations physical presence, or even for a United Kingdom presence, and even if, as would be quite likely, it would be objected to by one or more members of the Popular Front?
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene here.
Several noble Lords: Order!
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I understood the noble Lord to bow to me as a matter of courtesy, but I am quite happy to sit back and allow him to reply first. We must not discourage courtesy when it is extended. But I did have a Question tabled for today.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, may I suggest to the House that the protocol is that there are two speeches and that gives the Minister an opportunity to reply. The noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, rightly stakes his claim by putting down a Question and I am sure the House would want to listen to him at some length, but after the answers have been given to the two noble Lords who have spoken.
4.13 p.m.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would defer to my noble friend Lord George-Brown on this occasion, partly because of his position and also because of the situation which was created earlier this afternoon when a Question that he most patiently put forward four weeks ago could not be answered. However, I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me that I should obey the wishes of the House.
The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, rightly said that there is no simple solution to this problem, nor indeed is there real scope for partisan recrimination. The situation is far too serious and too important. He asked what Her Majesty's Government are endeavouring to achieve: precisely what his Government were trying to achieve when they were in office, coming fairly near to success once or twice; that is to say, to secure the orderly and peaceful transition from the present system of government in Rhodesia into one based on majority rule. The noble Lord then questioned the persistent validity of the Anglo-US proposals embodied in Cmnd. 6919. I could not disagree with him more than on what he said about the invalidity of those proposals. I think they are now even more important, for this reason. Internal discussions are taking place in Salisbury and my right honourable friend has clearly stated that it is not part of his policy to discourage or to frustrate those in any way. Indeed, he has said that he would welcome the implementation

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of the Six Principles from whatever source the proposals came, including, of course, Salisbury. But Salisbury is not enough on its own. If a peaceful, orderly settlement is to be arrived at there must be a ceasefire, and the people who cease firing are those who are firing, and that means the Patriotic Front. So there is that element differing from the otherwise no doubt commendable efforts in Salisbury.
Secondly, for a settlement to be durable and to "stick" there must be international acceptability. That is, not only acceptability among the nations of the Nine, who are in accord on this matter—and it is important (is it not?) that we move with our friends and allies in the Nine and in NATO—but acceptability in the world authority, the organisation of the United Nations, on which turns the ultimate, we hope the imminent, abrogation of sanctions. So in no way do we discourage or deplore any attempt in Salisbury or anywhere else to reach agreement. We are bound to continue with the practical conditions for a durable solution which are fairly set out in the Statement of the Anglo-US proposals and in the Command White Paper, and that is why Her Majesty's Government are continuing on this course. There is no other conceivably successful course except to proceed in this way.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, rightly reminded us of the grim fact that the armed struggle continues and may well continue until a generally acceptable solution is in sight. I agree with hint. Everything we do and say must be addressed to securing a ceasefire and making possible the rational calendar of settlement, agreement, transfer to a resident commissioner, the holding of free, fair elections leading to an orderly and peaceful transfer of power on an agreed independence day. I repeat, this is not easy. Successive Governments have found it complicated and difficult but I believe that the course we are following is the only possible course for us. Now I most freely and gladly give place to my noble friend Lord George-Brown.
4.18 p.m.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I am grateful for the courtesy which my noble friend—with whom I had the
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pleasure of working for a short while in the Foreign Office—was willing to show me. On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, I give notice that I will at some stage consider and see how we can raise the matter of the assumption that habit and custom sometimes become protocol and protocol then becomes rule, because it seems to me that those of us who lead rather smaller Parties—in my case, my own—also have some rights in this House.
I do not propose to ask the House to hear me at length today. It happens that not only did I score a "bull" for today, I also have time reserved on the 14th February when, if the House agrees, it will be my intention to open a debate on this subject, which will be a more suitable occasion for me to be heard at greater length. I now put it to my noble friend that there are many of us who are not normally to be found associated with those who speak on Rhodesian matters from the Opposition Benches but who, despite what he has said, fear very much that the present Foreign Secretary is allowing himself to drift into a position in which he is not merely seeking to work with all parties but is showing rather exceptional priority and almost partisanship for those who boast of their power to kill and conduct armed bloody struggle, and showing much less than that for those who are seeking to negotiate on behalf of the same people—the black residents of Rhodesia—a settlement by a peaceful means.
Is my noble friend aware that even in this Statement the words "Patriotic Front" are now used to mean only the self-proclaimed guerrillas and terrorists, and nothing nearly so dignified is ever applied to Bishop Muzorewa or the Reverend Sithole or Chief Chirau in Rhodesia itself? It is that which I want to raise with him in the first place. Will he put it to his right honourable friend that he is worrying some of us who saw his assumption of office with rather more enthusiasm than we are now able to feel? The Statement says:
On the basis of these proposals we"—
that is, Great Britain and, presumably, the Americans, although it is a little ambiguous—
"are prepared to accept responsibility for bringing the territory to independence following elections".

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That contrasts very oddly with Mr. Mugabe's statement to the Press yesterday in which lie said, according to this morning's issue of The Times—and I have no reason to think that it is inaccurate—that he, with
"Mr. Nkomo, foresaw [their organisation] itself playing a substantial role and the British a supervisory role"—
it almost seems to me that "supervisory" there could be rendered "subordinate"—
"in 'a kind of partnership' … But he made clear that the Patriotic Front guerillas must guarantee the irreversibility ' of a transition period leading to free elections".
Will my noble friend tell me how he equates Mr. Mugabe's view of who will be responsible for maintaining law and order and peaceful progress during the transition period with what is said in the Statement? On that basis, if Mr. Mugabe's statement describes what is to be the position, how can the British Government equate his party with the other parties? How can the British Government say that they must be able to exercise a veto over what he has done? I should not want to be in Bishop Muzorewa's position nor in that of the Reverend Sithole, or Chief Chirau, let alone in Mr. Smith's position, if the guerrillas are to be the force that maintains the situation during the process to independence.
As I say, we can leave longer debate on this to 14th February, but I should like my noble friend to comment on those two points. There may be reasons for the Opposition taking the view which they take; but it seems to me that there are very powerful reasons for some of us who are associated with the Labour Party, and who still call ourselves Socialists, taking the view that I am putting forward now.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am bound to say that my noble friend has expressed with moderation but nevertheless with great force legitimate anxieties about the course of events. But I cannot agree with him that his reservations could in any way apply to the purpose and the performance of my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. I have worked with him for some months now and there could be nobody more dedicated to achieving
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a peaceful and orderly transition of power in Rhodesia than the present Foreign Secretary.
Nevertheless, I know that he pays great attention to everything that my noble friend says. As I said, he has great experience and a record of distinguished service in these matters. I can assure my noble friend—he does not need me to assure him of this—that my right honourable friend will pay very close attention to what he has said. Indeed, I shall be discussing these exchanges with him.
My noble friend went on to query the use of the term "Patriotic Front". We describe certain organisations by the titles that they arrogate to themselves. I sometimes refer to the "Rhodesian Front", but is it, in spite of the fact that it calls itself the Rhodesian Front, the Front that represents the whole of Rhodesia? Of course, the Patriotic Front does not have a monopoly of patriotism in and in regard to Rhodesia.
That brings me to a fundamental point which I suspect my noble friend wanted me to make absolutely clear. We have made clear that the Patriotic Front is only one element, albeit an important one, in a Rhodesian settlement. It cannot have a veto, nor can it exclude the other parties; but, as a major party to a ceasefire, a solution which excludes it is most unlikely to be viable. That is they position of the Patriotic Front. I believe that that is what my noble friend skilfully wanted me to make absolutely clear. I hope that I have.
He quoted Mr. Mugabe. Mr. Mugabe is entitled to his views and front time to time he makes them known. So are we. Our views are contained in the quotation from the Statement to which my noble friend referred. It may well be that between those two attitudes—that of Mr. Mugabe and what is contained in this Statement—there may be future negotiation. Everything is capable of discussion, but that does not mean that everything is acceptable. It is a matter of opinion which we hope may resolve itself into a matter of consensus. I hope that I have covered the ground which my noble friend himself covered. I can absolutely assure him that everything he has said will be very carefully considered—and I mean that—by my right honourable friend and myself.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, I want to ask my noble friend to focus attention on one aspect of this problem. He spoke about the undesirability of recriminations. No one wishes to indulge in recriminations. But there is a great deal of frustration among those who watch his right honourable friend going from place to place without apparently being able to reach his destination. That is the trouble. My noble friend has said—and no doubt this is what the Foreign Office and the Government say—that there must be a ceasefire before there can be a settlement. Suppose that there is no ceasefire—then there can be no settlement. Is that what we are to understand? Is there no possibility that, as a result of protracted negotiations—and they have been protracted—there could be a settlement which would lead to a ceasefire? If we are to wait until Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe obtain what they want, there will no settlement at all. Is that not obvious?
We read about what is going on in the various newspapers and documents which some of us receive and we wonder whether there will ever be a settlement. We wonder whether there is not a certain amount of trouble because of resentment against Mr. Smith's attitude? When Mr. Smith said that the British Government should keep out of this, that may have caused some resentment. I should like to know why we want to be enthusiastic about the Patroitic Front. So far as I can gather from its tendencies and operations, the Patriotic Front is a body of terrorists. We shall never convince them, no matter what we do. Even if we achieve some kind of internal settlement, there may be trouble afterwards. In those circumstances, will my noble friend, who obviously realises, as we all do, the intricate nature of the problem and who is anxious to obtain a settlement (as is his right honourable friend), address himself to this question: Suppose we do not get this ceasefire, what will be the result?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I hope that we can at least agree that it is worth while—I would say essential—to obtain a ceasefire as a prerequisite to an agreement; otherwise, we might get an agreement which would be for an indefinite period, and would be at the mercy of the men of blood, regardless. The object of these talks in Malta
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is to make it if not impossible then highly impracticable for the people who apparently, to some extent at least, believe in armed struggle, to carry on with that despite the fact that the great majority of the people involved have agreed to a settlement.
I have respect for the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Shinwell. I have tried to put it down here. I shall look at it again in the Official Report. I could not prejudge the possibility of a settlement that could lead to a ceasefire. He has great experience. I doubt if this is on, but certainly it should be considered. I will add only one point in reply to him. He said that he deplored recrimination. Coming from my noble friend that is news indeed, because it is part of his charm and his appeal to this House and the other House that he recriminated so well and continues to do so.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the proposition that a settlement must depend upon the consent of the gunmen applies equally to Northern Ireland? Surely it is a very dangerous proposition to accept. There is one other question I should like to put to him. I assume that the Foreign Secretary is talking to Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe because he considers them to be the responsible leaders and commanders of the guerrillas. Those guerrillas have committed a number of quite atrocious murders; murders of priests, of nuns, of women, of children, of black servants massacred in quarters. Has it occurred to the Foreign Secretary to ask of those two gentlemen whether those actions of their followers have their approval, and if they have not their approval, to ask of them whether they have ever considered taking some disciplinary action with regard to the people who commit that sort of murder?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can reply briefly to those two points. Of course the consent of the Government is vital in the longer or shorter term to any worthwhile settlement. The fact that it is not immediately obtainable in every part of the world does not invalidate that as a basic principle and a practicable one. On the question of atrocious conduct by nationalistic leaders, the record throughout history and in all

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imperia is strewn with stories of those who were denounced for atrocities while they were leading insurgent movements and then feted as heads of Government by those who previously denounced them. So I would not be too selective about anybody in Rhodesia, whether black or white, as to whether in the future his previous crimes, if they were such, may not be forgiven.
Lord PEART: My Lords, we have spent 31 minutes on this Statement. I know that it is important, but I think we have had the case argued very well.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, as a general rule I think that the noble Lord the Leader of the House is quite right. However, senior Members of your Lordships' House, such as the noble Lords, Lord George-Brown, Lord Shinwell and Lord Paget, have naturally been given way to by those on the Back Benches. Perhaps one of my noble friends who is not so senior might be allowed to ask one last question.
Lord PEART: My Lords, yes, but then another noble Lord would like to conic in. Please, one last question.
The Earl of ONSLOW: My Lords, as a very junior noble Lord, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, this question: if an internal settlement is arrived at—and it seems a possibility or even a probability that this might be the case—which fulfils the principle that it is a settlement which is acceptable to the Rhodesian people as a whole, and then the Patriotic Front say, "We do not accept this and the guerrilla war will go on", what would then be the attitude of Her Majesty's Government?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the noble Earl poses a hypothesis, but he is entitled to do so without commitment to a view. I think my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put the point very succinctly regarding the nature of any agreement that might emerge from what we call internal discussions: the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. That proof would be how far it ensures that everybody has been
886
involved and has had an opportunity of agreeing, and how far it has made it impracticable, if not impossible, as I see it, for armed struggle to continue. Nobody can foresee these things in full detail. All I say is—and I ask the noble, Earl to consider this—that clearly we mist make a tremendous effort to achieve a settlement within the ambit of the Six Principles, as the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition said, or, as I would say, within the Command Paper and the Anglo-United States proposals, in the belief that if we get that, then the ceasefire is equally obtainable. It is a matter of judgment. We could be here a very long time arguing this point.
Lord HANKEY: My Lords, may I ask one final question?
Lord PEART: Quickly.
Lord HANKEY: My Lords, it will be very short. Will the Government recognise that a great many people in this country have much sympathy with the great efforts which are being made inside Rhodesia by Bishop Muzorewa and the other black leaders and by Mr. Smith to reach an internal settlement? It seems extremely important that the Foreign Office should be able to follow these negotiations in great detail, because they are bound to affect the attitude of our own Government. Have the Government adequate representation in Rhodesia, in Salisbury, at a proper, effective, educated diplomatic level to follow what is going on and report constantly to the Foreign Secretary?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, we are adequately informed.

JUDICATURE (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Committee stage resumed.
Clause 29 [Co-ordination of exercise of jurisdiction in relation to persons under disability]:
On Question, Whether Clause 29 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.38 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD: Perhaps this point can reasonably be said to come under

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Clause 29, and it might be for the convenience of the Committee if I raised it because it is connected with the two previous points I made about mental patients. The officers detailed in Schedule 3 includes two statutory officers whose work is connected with jurisdiction with respect to persons under a disability; in this case, mental patients. The two statutory officers I am concerned with in Schedule 3 are the Master (Care and Protection) and the Registrar (Care and Protection).
As I understand Part 8 of the MacDermott Report on the Supreme Court in Northern Ireland, at the moment the Chief Clerk, in addition to being responsible for Chancery Chambers, is the Registrar in Lunacy, and the Deputy Chief Clerk is his Assistant Registrar. In this capacity the Chief Clerk and his assistant deal with the business of the Northern Ireland Department for the Affairs of Patients, which I mentioned previously in my remarks. I do not know what the volume of the work in the Department amounts to. In England and Wales the Court of Protection is dealing, I understand, with about 20,000 patients at any one time and has an establishment of about 165 people. The weight of work and the establishment needed are presumably less in Northern Ireland.
What I want to ask first is whether it is really necessary to create two new appointments in Northern Ireland under Schedule 3, of persons to be responsible for the Department for the Affairs of Patients, when this work has hitherto been done, so I understand, by the Chief Clerk and his Assistant Registrar as part of their other duties. Further, is it necessary to describe these new posts in the archaic language of the 1871 Act? Here I am returning to the point I made previously, but it is an important one when describing statutory officers who are undertaking the sensitive work of dealing with the affairs of patients and their relatives. Perhaps I should have raised this point under Clause 28. However, I think it is for the convenience of the Committee that I get through the points I wish to raise, of which these are the last on the question of mental patients.
The MINISTER of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Melchett): It might be helpful if I told the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, that the Department of Health and Social Services, with which, as he knows, I am concerned in Northern Ireland, was consulted fully in the drafting of the Bill. None of the points he has put today has been put to the Department by any of the interests concerned in Northern Ireland, though naturally I appreciate that these matters may have come to their attention rather later in the day. Nevertheless, I have not heard any concern expressed on these various points.
My noble and learned friend has explained the decision which has been taken about looking at the law as laid down in the 1871 Act. While that Act is in use it is necessary to refer to the terminology used in it. It will not be until that is reviewed and new legislation is introduced that these terms will be able to be dropped. However, if I undertake to look at the various points which the noble Lord has made, in particular in regard to the mentally handicapped, and the provisions in this Bill, and to write to him before the next stage, perhaps that will set his mind at rest.
Lord BELSTEAD: I shall be most grateful.
Clause 29 agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 34 agreed to.
Clause 35 [Appeals to Court of Appeal]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 19, line 5, after ("interlocutory") insert ("order or").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment to bring the provisions of Clause 35(2)(g) into line with the remaining provisions of the clause and is designed to avoid doubt as to whether the provisions of subsection (2)(g) extend to interlocutory orders as well as to interlocutory judgments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 36 [Composition of Court of Appeal]:
4.43 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 20, line 21, at end insert ("with the consent of both parties to the appeal, reference or matter").
The noble Lord said: The effect of this Amendment is to require the consent of both parties to an appeal if the Lord Chief Justice is to direct that the hearing is to be held before two, and not three, judges. I understand that provision for an appeal to be heard by two judges is a repetition of existing legislation and I am advised that it is only fair to admit that, when counsel for the parties ask for a three-judge hearing, the Northern Ireland Appeal Court invariably agrees to that. Nevertheless, it is with the wording of the Bill that the Committee must be concerned and one need only look at the next provision—subsection (3)—to find that if, in a two-judge hearing, there is a difference of opinion, the hearing must be re-heard. There must be occasions—perhaps in some commercial cases or when one of the litigants is an elderly person—when the parties can ill afford this possibility. For these reasons, I beg to move.
The Lord CHANCELLOR: In a final appeal in Northern Ireland, three judges sit on every possible occasion in order to obviate the danger of a two-judge appellate tribunal being in disagreement. But it is not always practicable to obviate that danger and, in the interests of the expeditious despatch of business, it is thought valuable for the Lord Chief Justice, having read the papers in the given case, to use his discretion to direct that the appeal be heard by only two judges. In practice, where difficult questions of law are likely to arise, he invariably directs that the appeal must be heard by three judges. The system has worked fairly and effectively in Northern Ireland since 1921; in the last 30 years, there have been only two cases in which a Court of Appeal comprised of two judges has failed to reach agreement. That is not a bad record over 30 years. In one of those cases, the court, realising before the conclusion of the argument that it was going to be divided was immediately reconstituted as a court of three judges. Accordingly, I think the danger of extra cost and inconvenience to the parties, against which the Amendment is designed to safeguard, is very
890
slight indeed, and, in my submission, it is outweighed by the facility for the quicker despatch of business which the clause as it stands provides.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful for the guidance which the noble and learned Lord has given me. I had rather hoped that, even if my Amendment was not acceptable, the Lord Chief Justice should have to have regard to the wishes of the parties, but I must accept, as it were, the guidance I have been given by the noble and learned Lord that that is precisely what the Lord Chief Justice mould do. Indeed, so wonderful are the ways of the law that, apparently, according to the noble and learned Lord, a court where it appeared that there was not going to be agreement was reconstituted during the proceedings. As a layman, I did not understand that that could be done. I feel much comforted and I am glad that I moved the Amendment, which I ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 agreed to.
Clauses 37 to 45 agreed to.
Clause 46 [Exclusive jurisdiction in trial on indictment]:
4.48 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 46 shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord BELSTEAD: I have a point to raise on this clause and I apologise if the answer should be perfectly obvious to me, This is the first of the clauses under Part IV of the Bill which for the first time, establishes Crown Courts in Northern Ireland, and I simply wish to ask whether the Crown Courts in Northern Ireland will be hearing the scheduled offences. The Diplock courts, which so well I remember being set up, have done remarkable work; it is remarkable that there has been no breath of criticism from any quarter of the working of those courts, except perhaps from a few people whose only work is subversion. If my memory serves me right, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, produced his valuable and important report about two years ago, it was again recorded in that report that the Diplock courts

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had worked exceedingly well. What I am now seeking to ask the noble and learned Lord in respect of those courts—which I have always thought of as being rather special courts because they were specifically set up to be single-judge courts and to try scheduled offences (the special terrorist offences set out in the relevant Schedule to the Emergency Provisions Act)—is whether those scheduled offences are to be tried before Crown Courts.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Undoubtedly the Crown Court will have jurisdiction to try scheduled offences, but it will do so, of course, without juries, as is the procedure for dealing with scheduled offences. That jurisdiction will remain, and the procedures will remain. In fact, the jurisdiction has been exercised both by High Court judges and by other judges until now; and, as I have said, the Crown Court as now constituted will have that jurisdiction.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that information.
Clause 46 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 not moved.]
Clause 47 agreed to.
Clause 48 [Committal for trial on indictment]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 10:
Page 30, line 20, leave out ("prescribed") and insert ("specified").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment bringing paragraph (b) into line with the remainder of Clause 48 (5), in which references are to the "specified" period rather than the "prescribed" period. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 49 to 52 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 11 not moved.]
Clause 53 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 12 not moved.]
Clause 54 agreed to.
Clause 55 agreed to.
Clause 56 [Control and publication of rules]:
4.54 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 37, line 29, leave out ("an") and insert ("a significant").
The noble Lord said: I understand that the Rules Committee is confined in its rule-making powers by the need to obtain Treasury approval if a new rule involves an increase of any sort at all in public expenditure. The effect of this Amendment is to relax the stipulation to the extent that Treasury permission will be needed only if a rule would involve "a significant" increase in public expenditure. In moving this Amendment I must admit to your Lordships that I believe the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act 1925—that is, for England and Wales—is drafted in very much the same way as this Bill. On the other hand, it is interesting that the word "significant" has recently begun to creep into Bills which have passed through Parliament.
A Bill which had its Third Reading in your Lordships' House today, the Medical Bill, has in its Explanatory Memorandum reference to a "significant" increase in expenditure by the General Medical Council; again, there is a reference which I found, admittedly in an Explanatory Memorandum, to a "significant" effect on public service manpower in the State Immunity Bill; and a Bill which we are going to be taking on Tuesday, the Suppression of Terrorism Bill, refers to "substantial prejudice". I hope that the noble and learned Lord will not "shoot me down" on the ground that the word "significant" is difficult to define. If, on the other hand, the noble and learned Lord tells me that it is not in line with the 1925 Act, then I am afraid there will be nothing I am able to say. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Clause 56 as it is now drafted requires the concurrence of the Treasury in the making of any Rules of the Supreme Court of Northern Ireland which will involve an increase in expenditure out of public funds. It is a standard provision in all statutory rule-making powers, and its purpose is fairly obvious,

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I think. In these times the importance of Treasury control over all increases in public expenditure, however slight they may be, is important, particularly where, as in this instance, no member of the rule-making authority is a member of the Government or answerable to Parliament.
Furthermore, the noble Lord's Amendment would, I think, introduce an uncertainty as to what degree of increase in public expenditure would amount to a "significant" increase. Those wanting a great deal more would no doubt regard it, however great it was, as wholly insignificant; but those who have to find the money from the taxpayer might not be ready and willing to take the same view. That is the reason why the word "significant" is not included in the Bill; although I take note of the fact that a certain amount of laxity seems to be creeping into the Statute Book by the excessive use of words of uncertain meaning and limitation.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his reply. There is, I think, a serious point here, and it is a familiar one, or should be a familiar one, to those of us who live on this side of the water but are venturing to legislate, as we have to, for Northern Ireland. It is this. I am advised that on one occasion a rule could not be made for really quite a long time because it was said to involve an increase in expenditure out of the Legal Aid Fund, although it was not likely to exceed £50, so it really was a very small amount.
What I should have liked to ask, through the Government, is whether it would perhaps be possible for the Treasury, which, after all, is sitting in London, to have some working arrangement with the Rules Committee, which, after all, is sitting in Belfast. I am sure this is something which would be appreciated on the other side of the water, so that unconscionable delays should not occur. With that, I will of course withdraw the Amendment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am advised that, provided the Treasury is consulted in good time, there ought to be no grounds for anxiety from the point of view of delay.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.58 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 37, line 43, at end insert—
("(4) It shall he the duty of the Secretary to the Rules Committee to make due arrangements with Her Majesty's Stationery Office for the reprinting and sale of Statutory rules and other instruments to which the provisions of the Statutory Rules Act (Northern Ireland) 1958 apply; such arrangements shall to made at intervals not exceeding 5 years in duration").
The noble Lord said: Clause 56 provides for the control and publication of rules which are provided by the Statutory Rules Act (Northern Ireland) 1958. I understand that the rules of the Supreme Court were last published in 1936, and have been out of print for some time. This does not appear to be a very satisfactory situation, the more so as the 1958 Act regulations—that is, those made under Section 4 of the 1958 Act—exempt from any provision of that Act any rule or class of rules, provided adequate arrangements exist for bringing, so far as is reasonably practicable, the exemption to the notice of persons affected thereby, and for supplying copies thereof to anyone who wants a copy of the exemption. From a reading of the principal Act, it would appear desirable for the Supreme Court rules to be reprinted and put on sale at reasonably regular intervals, and the effect of this Amendment is to provide for this at intervals of not more than five years. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am aware that the current edition of the Rules of the Supreme Court is over 40 years old, as the noble Lord said, and that it has been out of print for many years. I have no doubt that this has caused a good deal of inconvenience both to the courts and to the practitioners. That is the bad news. However, I have some good news. It is that a complete revision of the rules of the Supreme Court is currently in hand and, I hope, will be available before the end of this year. That will result in the new edition of the rules being much closer to the corresponding rules in England and Wales. In accordance with modern practice in these matters, which is immensely beneficial, the new edition will be made available in loose-leaf form so as to enable the rules to be updated more easily and more conveniently. That new

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system will also obviate the necessity for entirely fresh editions to be regularly reissued—or, rarely reissued, as was the case in the past. In view of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord may think his Amendment is not necessary.
Lord BELSTEAD: My apprehension is that the noble and learned Lord has met my point completely. If I remember aright the 1958 Act from my reading and slight understanding of it, if exemptions or alterations to the rules are made, the responsible officer must notify these; and, from what the noble and learned Lord has said, these alterations could be slipped into the practitioner's loose-leaf file in the same way as some politicians, during the course of complicated Bills find themselves slipping pieces of paper backwards and forwards into their supporting documents. I beg to leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 56 agreed to.
Clauses 57 to 59 agreed to.
Clause 60 [Taxation of costs.]:
5.2 p.m.
Lord BELSTEAD Lord BELSTEAD moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 39, line 4, at end insert ("which shall provide for appeals to be made.")
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 15. The power to tax costs rests now with the court concerned and that power is delegated to the Master (Taxing Office) from whom there is a right of appeal. Clause 60 (1) allocates the jurisdiction of the High Court, the Court of Appeal and the Crown Court for taxation of costs to the Master (Taxing Office); but if there is no intention to remove the right of appeal I should have thought it was desirable, indeed necessary, to add words clarifying this; and this is the effect of the Amendment. If the Government were to accept this Amendment, it strikes me that it might be necessary to amend also Clause 55 (1)(a)(v) so that the Rules about the taxation of costs shall be in accordance with Clause 60. That, of course, will depend upon the response of the noble and learned Lord to this Amendment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: The Bill already provides in Clause 55(2)(e) for rules of court to be made:
"…providing for the review of any jurisdiction exercised by such officers …".
This will enable the Rules to provide for the review of decisions of the Master (Taxing Office); and such rules will so provide.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his reply. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 60 agreed to.
Clause 61 agreed to.
Clause 62 [Trial with and without jury.]:
On Question, whether Clause 62 shall stand part of the Bill?
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: The practice in Northern Ireland of trial in front of a jury for civil injuries and such like cases differs from that in the rest of Great Britain. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord has any figures to show that the damages awarded in these forms of cases of trial in front of jury are greater than in England and Wales. The insurance companies when they put up our premiums assure us that one of the reasons why the premiums are so high—and they are very high—is because it is trial in front of jury instead of trial by judge alone.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I have no statistical information, but, even if I had, I doubt whether it would be of great value because no one case is like the next. This is part of the problems and difficulties of litigation. I have no information which can throw any helpful light on this and I doubt whether any would be found by however hard-working a statistician.
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: If it is right here to have such cases in front of a judge without a jury, what is the justification for having them in front of a jury in Northern Ireland?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: It is simply because that is the preferred system in Northern Ireland. That, I am afraid, is the answer. It is as simple as that.
Clause 62 agreed to.
Clause 63 to 65 agreed to.
Clause 66 [Certain affidavits taken abroad admissible without proof of seal etc.]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 41, line 14, after ("England") insert ("and Wales").
The noble and learned Lord said: This remedies a very serious omission in the Bill. I should never again be able to return to the Principality if it were not put right. It leaves out "Wales", by a gross and terrible inadvertence which this Amendment will remedy. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 66, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 67 [Subpoenas in other parts of the United Kingdom]:
On Question, Whether Clause 67 shall stand part of the Bill?
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: I should like to ask whether subpoenas which will be operated within the United Kingdom also apply to the Isle of Man. I ask this because I find that the Prime Minister in another place said that certain islands are part of the United Kingdom and directly under the Westminster Parliament, while the Isle of Man is not. The Isle of Man is very close to Northern Ireland and there are very close links. I wonder whether that is an omission.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I am told that, apparently, it does not apply to the Isle of Man. How serious is that omission, I do not know. We shall have to look at the point. I am advised that that is the position. A most interesting matter has been raised.
Clause 67 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 17 to 30 not moved].
Clauses 68 to 94 agreed to.
Clause 95 [County courts and county court divisions]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 55, line 40, after ("court") insert ("at any place").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, as the Bill stands, this Amendment relates to the functions of the Secretary of State but they will of course be transferred to me in accordance with the undertaking that I have already given. In speaking to it, therefore, I shall refer to the Lord Chancellor as the responsible Minister.
This Amendment will clarify the essential purpose of orders made by the Lord Chancellor pursuant to the new subsection (2)(d) of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 as substituted by Clause 95. Without this Amendment, paragraph (d) would enable the Lord Chancellor to make general provision concerning the nature of the business to be transacted by any county court, while paragraph (a) enables him to specify the places in which the county courts are to be held. Paragraph (d) does not, however, enable the Lord Chancellor to make specific provision for the hearing of certain types of case at particular venues: for example, to provide that appeals arising from a specified petty sessions district shall be heard at a particular venue within the county court division. As it is possible that sittings of the court could be held for limited purposes at certain places within a division, it is desirable to demonstrate in paragraph (d) that the Lord Chancellor's power to make appropriate orders extends to his specifying the business to be transacted at each court venue within a division. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 95, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 96 agreed to.
5.13 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 35:
After Clause 96, insert the following new clause:

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Civil jurisdiction exercisable by circuit
registrars
" .—(1) section 61 of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 there shall be inserted the following section—
61A.—(1) Subject to subsection (3), any action in which the amount claimed, or the value of specific chattels claimed, does not exceed £300 shall, save as otherwise provided by county court rules, be heard and determined by a circuit registrar in accordance with those rules.
(2) Any order, decision or determination made by a circuit registrar by virtue of subsection (1) shall for all purposes (including the right of appeal) have the like effect as a decree pronounced by a judge and shall be embodied in a decree accordingly.
(3) Where in any action to which subsection (1) applies the amount claimed, or the value of specific chattels claimed, does not exceed £200 the circuit registrar shall, save as otherwise provided by county court rules, deal with the claim by way of arbitration in accordance with those rules.
(4) Save as otherwise provided by county court rules, no costs shall be awarded in connection with an action which, in accordance with subsection (3), is dealt with by way of arbitration.
(5) In its application to an arbitration under subsection (3), the Arbitration Act (Northern Ireland) 1937 shall have effect with such modifications as may be prescribed by county court rules.
(6) References in subsections (1) and (3) to an amount claimed include references to a balance claimed in the circumstances mentioned in section 10(1)(a)(b) and (c).
(7) The power conferred by Article 8(2)(a) of the Administration of Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1975 on the Secretary of State, after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice, by order to increase the sum specified in any of the statutory provisions set out in column 1 of Schedule 1 to that Order shall include power so to increase the sums specified in subsections (1) and (3).
(2) Her Majesty may by Order in Council—

(a) direct that sections 71(1), (2) and (3), 76(1)(a) and 82(3) of the Magistrates' Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1964 (which impose financial limits on the jurisdiction of courts of summary jurisdiction in debt and ejectment proceedings) shall have effect with the substitution for the sums for the time being specified in those provisions of such higher sums as may be specified in the Order;

(b) abolish any civil jurisdiction exercisable by courts of summary jurisdiction;

(c) confer on circuit registrars any civil jurisdiction additional to that for the
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time being exercisable by them under or by virtue of this Act.

(3) An Order in Council under subsection (2) may make such incidental, consequential, transitional or supplementary provisions (including the amendment or repeal of any statutory provision) as appear to Her Majesty to be necessary or proper for giving full effect to the provisions of the Order.
(4) No recommendation shall be made to Her Majesty in Council to make an Order under subsection (2) unless a draft of the Order has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament."
The noble and learned Lord said: This is an important new Clause. In speaking to Amendment No. 35, I ask leave also to consider Amendments Nos. 50, 57, 64 and 74 which are inter-related. Although this Amendment again refers to the Secretary of State, this will be changed to a reference to the Lord Chancellor later, in accordance with my undertaking. The Committee will remember that during the debate on Second Reading, I indicated that we would be bringing forward Amendments relating to the jurisdiction of circuit registrars and, in particular, to the establishment of a small claims jurisdiction. That jurisdiction has proved most valuable in England and Wales in making the processes of the courts more amenable and litigation to be undertaken without risk of high costs. It is a procedure which has now been used by thousands of litigants of small means up and down the country. I am sure it will also be welcomed in Northern Ireland.
The new clause, which I now move, embodies the amendments to which I have referred, and seeks to provide for the inclusion in the County Courts (Northern Ireland) Act 1959 of a new Section 61A outlining the extent to which the civil jurisdiction of the county court will be exercisable by circuit registrars. Broadly speaking, subsection (1) of the new clause would enable the new circuit registrars to exercise the general civil jurisdiction of the county court in actions founded on contract or tort up to a monetary ceiling of £300. However, that w ill be subject to county court rules which will not only provide the detailed procedure which will apply but also may restrict the types of case or circumstances in which this jurisdiction will be exercisable by circuit registrars. I can say that it will be comparable to the jurisdiction of county court registrars in England and Wales. So rules which can be more easily amended than primary

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legislation will make the detailed provision for the exercise of circuit registrars' jurisdiction and will state the limitations within which that jurisdiction will operate. That should provide the necessary flexibility for the effective and equitable operation of this new system.
Subsections (3) to (5) of the new Section 61A of the County Courts Act will create a new small claims procedure for cases in which the amount claimed does not exceed £200. These will normally be dealt with by circuit registrars by way of informal arbitration. The details of the arrangements will be filled in by county court rules which will provide, among other things, for such cases to be tried in the ordinary way if both parties object to arbitration, and for cases of particular difficulty to be referred to the judge.
Subsection (7) of the new Section 61A enables the figures for the circuit registrars' jurisdiction and for the small claims jurisdiction to be increased by Orders in Council. Subsection (2) of the new clause introduces for the first time power to alter by order in council the financial limit on certain parts of the jurisdiction of magistrates' courts. It will also enable the civil jurisdiction of magistrates to be abolished by subordinate legislation. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for his suggestion at Second Reading that this might be done, and we have taken the opportunity to do so in this new clause. Most of that civil jurisdiction of magistrates' courts is already exercisable by the county courts as well. Power is also conferred in subsection (2) to confer new jurisdiction on the circuit registrars.
Subsection (3) of the new clause enables an Order in Council to make incidental and supplementary provision as necessary; and by subsection (4) such orders will be subject to Affirmative Resolution. The other four Amendments are, with one exception, purely consequential on the introduction of this new clause. I will say a further word about one of them when the time comes. I beg to move.
Lord BELSTEAD: I should like to study what the noble and learned Lord has said. I am sure that members of the Committee on all sides will agree that this is a sensible provision to be included in this legislation. Regarding the remark made about order-making powers—which I raised on Second. Reading—it is not very
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often that from the Opposition side of the Committee one recommends an order-making power; but where the civil jurisdictions of the circuit registrars and the magistrates' court are concurrent and, as the White Paper itself said, in the light of how the circuit registrars' work develops it may be necessary, in the future, to look again at the powers of the magistrates' courts, it seemed that to have to do this by primary legislation was not very sensible. I am grateful to the Government for acting upon the suggestion that I ventured to make and for including that in subsection (2)(b) of this new clause.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 97 agreed to.
5.20 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 36:
After Clause 97, insert the following new clause:
Qualifications of county court judges and deputy judges
".—(1) In section 103(1) of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 for the words from "unless" to the end of the subsection there shall be substituted the words "unless—

(a) he has practised for not less than ten years at the Bar of Northern Ireland; or

(b) he has been a deputy judge for not less than three years."

(2) For section 107 of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 there shall be substituted the following section—
"Deputy judges.
107.—(1) The Lord Chancellor may appoint as deputy judge—

a) a person who has previously held the office of judge;

(b) a person who is qualified to be appointed to the office of a judge;

(c) a resident magistrate;

(d) a solicitor who has practised for not less than ten years as a solicitor in Northern Ireland.

(2) The appointment of a person as a deputy judge shall specify the term for which he is appointed.
(3) Subject to subsection (4), the Lord Chancellor may, with the agreement of the deputy judge, from time to time extend, for such period as he thinks appropriate, the term for which the deputy judge is appointed.
(4) Except where an appointment is made under subsection (l)(a), neither the initial term for which a deputy judge is appointed nor any extension of that term under subsection (3) shall be such as to continue his appointment as a deputy judge after the end of the completed year of service in which he attains the age of seventy-two years.
(5) A deputy judge shall, while he is so acting, have the like authority, jurisdiction, powers and privileges as a judge in all respects.
(6) Where the hearing of any proceedings duly commenced before any deputy judge is adjourned or judgment is reserved therein, that deputy judge shall, notwithstanding anything in subsection (2) or (4), have power to resume the hearing and determine the proceedings or, as the case may be, to deliver the judgment so reserved.
(7) There shall be paid to every deputy judge, except a resident magistrate, such remuneration and allowances as the Lord Chancellor may, with the concurrence of the Minister for the Civil Service, determine."."
(The noble and learned Lord said: It might be convenient to consider with this Amendment Amendment No. 76. This, again, is an Amendment of some significance. The effect of the Amendments is to make solicitors and resident magistrates eligible for appointment as deputy county court judges. That is achieved by a new section, Section 107(1) of the County Courts Act. By virtue of the new provisions which will be inserted in Section 103 of the County Courts Act, persons who have been deputy county court judges for not less than three years will be eligible to be appointed as permanent county court judges. Your Lordships may recall that a similar change was made in regard to England and Wales by the Courts Act 1971. The feeling in your Lordships' House at that time was that it was right that appointments to this level of the Judiciary should become open to the solicitors' branch of the legal profession; and this new clause will make a similar change in Northern Ireland.
The position will not be exactly comparable because there are no recorders in Northern Ireland as we have in England and Wales, but solicitors will be able to obtain judicial experience and will be tested, if I may put it in that way, for their competence in that work by being appointed deputy county court judges before being eligible for a permanent appointment, and indeed, being so for not less than three years.
Another avenue for solicitors to reach the county court bench will be through a change in respect of resident magistrates, for which appointments solicitors are already eligible. By making that
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change, the new clause will benefit all resident magistrates, whether they were barristers or solicitors before being appointed, by enabling them to be appointed as deputy county court judges and then, after three years, making them eligible for appointment to the county court bench.
I should mention in this connection a small Amendment I shall be moving later, which will increase from six to seven years the length of time for which a solicitor or barrister must have practised before becoming eligible for appointment as a resident magistrate. That minor change is designed merely to bring the position in Northern Ireland into line with that of stipendiary magistrates in England and Wales. I may add that this Amendment is in addition to the provision in Clause 105 of the Bill, which introduces, for the first time in respect of Northern Ireland, a provision comparable to that which has existed in England and Wales since 1961, enabling a practising barrister who has been a solicitor or a solicitor who has been a barrister to count his time in the other branch of the profession towards any qualifying period which may be laid down, by Statute or otherwise, for eligibility for appointment to office or for any other purpose.
I hope that all these provisions will widen the field of choice for judicial appointments and will help to maintain the high quality of the Judiciary in Northern Ireland. I may say that I have myself found, as Lord Chancellor, that the changes which have been made in England and Wales have enabled me to appoint as circuit judges several former solicitors who have proved highly competent to perform the work of the Crown Court.
Subsections (2) and (3) require the period of appointment of a deputy judge to be specified and enable that period to be extended. The remaining provisions of the new Section 107 of the County Courts Act simply restate the existing provisions relating to deputy county court judges, with necessary consequential Amendments. I beg to move.
Viscount BROOKEBOROUGH: I should like to welcome this new clause. I accept that it is going to be only permissive and is not going to require the

905
Lord Chancellor to appoint anybody in fact, but it seems to me that from the resident magistrate's point of view we shall have a career structure which will no doubt encourage people of quality to go through with that. I do not quite see how a deputy judge, who is a resident magistrate and is appointed a deputy judge, will gain the same experience that a recorder gains in this country, because I understand that a recorder sits for a particular period each month, whereas in Northern Ireland it is likely that a deputy judge might be appointed only for a day. Perhaps it does not work quite like that, in which case I am sure the noble and learned Lord will tell me. But I wonder whether, in the way I see it working at the moment, our deputy judges will gain equivalent experience before they arrive at the point where they can be appointed as a proper county court judge.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I apprehend that the experience which a deputy county court judge will have, during the course of the three years when he will have to have been so appointed, will provide the necessary experience for him and, if I may say so, the necessary opportunities for his capacity and qualities to be decided. We anticipate that the frequency of his employment will certainly be no less than that which is the experience of recorders and that, on the strength of that experience, it will be possible for the Lord Chief Justice and others who will be advising me to form a view of the suitability of the applicant for appointment as a county court judge proper.
Lord BELSTEAD: It is very valuable to be able to ask these questions in this way of the noble and learned Lord, because of course we are questioning the Minister who will be responsible for making the appointments to the Judiciary. I should like to pursue what my noble friend Lord Brookeborough was putting to the noble and learned Lord, and I do so in nohostilesensetowards the members of the profession of solicitor. Like many other citizens, I benefit very much from their advice and so am in no way imbued with any hostility towards them. However, I must say that, when listening to the noble and learned Lord, I wondered whether, if you fulfil the
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office of recorder in this country and presumably have a court list of your own which is made up some time beforehand, and are given advice as to when you are going to sit and in fact you sit for a guaranteed minimum period of time, that really is the same sort of apprenticeship, if I may use that term, as being a deputy judge in Northern Ireland. There, as I understand it, although they do extremely valuable work, they sit very much on an ad hoc and sudden basis and presumably, if suddenly asked to sit, will probably take the less difficult rather than the more difficult cases.
I ventured to ask the noble and learned Lord a question about the Crown Courts when we got to Clause 46. I did so because I had an eye to this Amendment we are now dealing with. Here it seems that the boot is on the other foot and one is dealing in. Clause 46 with very serious cases. The noble and learned Lord was good enough to tell me that the Crown Courts will be able to hear scheduled offences, and I should be interested to hear from him whether deputy judges will sit as Crown Court judges—as indeed, so far as I know, they can do, because this new clause provides in subsection (5) that:
"A deputy judge shall, while he is so acting, have the like authority, jurisdiction, powers and privileges as a judge in all respects".
I should have thought that perhaps it was not so appropriate that a deputy judge should have the onus of sitting in a Crown Court and I wonder, if that is the case, whether it ought not to be spelled out in the new clause. Further, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord would think it appropriate that judges appointed by this method should sit in the Crown Court. I am simply asking for the noble and learned Lord's view.
While I am on my feet may I ask a couple of questions about resident magistrates? Without going into detail, I speak with admiration of what resident magistrates have done, very often under great danger, in past years, and so with no hostility at all. But, again, I wondered on reading the new clause whether the office of stipendiary in this country is a stepping stone to a judgeship. I was not aware that this was so. I wondered, as I read the Bill, whether it is really appropriate, now that the whole appellate

907
jurisdiction from magistrates' courts will continue to rest with the county courts, that resident magistrates should be singled out in this new clause for special mention to be deputy judges and to hear appeals from the petty sessional courts—in other words, appeals from themselves and from their brethren—in their capacity as deputy judges.
I should be interested to hear whether the noble and learned Lord thinks that really it is so appropriate that resident magistrates should be specially picked out in that way, particularly as a resident magistrate must, under the Bill, have served a seven years' apprenticeship as either a solicitor or a barrister, and a solicititor who has practised for not less than 10 years will be eligible under this clause to be a deputy judge. This makes me further mystified as to why, in particular, resident magistrates have been picked out for inclusion in the four who may be appointed as deputy judges under this new clause.
The Lord CHANCELLOR: The position of the deputy judge will be that, while there will not be a minimum sitting requirement, as is the case with recorders, a record will be kept of how much and how long each deputy judge will sit, and therefore how much experience he will get. It will be on the basis of that accumulated information that a decision will be made as to whether he has qualified by experience and, as I have said, by the performance of his work, to be made a full-time judge. Of course, a recorder in England does not have to sit continuously for his period of duty. He can sit for shorter intervals, provided that he attains the necessary minimum total, which I believe is 28 days in the course of a year. I think that in practice these points can be worked out, so that the amount of experience and the opportunity for testing performance will be parallel or similar to what takes place in England, in regard to recorders.
Of course, deputy judges will not, in practice, be required to sit in the Crown Court when dealing with the Diplock scheduled cases. Obviously, you would entrust those cases only to the more experienced and, certainly, to none other than permanent full-time judges, and it is not conceivable that a deputy judge would deal with that class of case. I do not
908
think that we need have any anxiety about that. These matters would be supervised by the Chief Justice and the circuit administrator, and I am quite sure that they will work out satisfactorily in practice.
Of course, barrister stipendiaries in England can become circuit judges and, indeed, some have been so appointed. Solicitor stipendiaries can become recorders and then judges, also, in this country. I am very glad that tribute has been paid to the resident magistrates today and I should like to pay tribute myself. They have faced danger with courage, and done their work in a way which has caused admiration both in Northern Ireland and here.
Lord BELSTEAD: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for what he has said. As I was saying, it is valuable for us to be able to question the noble and learned Lord face to face, because it is he who will be responsible under this clause, and we are therefore in a fortunate position as opposed to another place. I think, also, that it was right to have asked the noble and learned Lord one or two questions. This is, after all, the first time that this Bill has been gone through in Committee, and this new clause may come under scrutiny again if not in your Lordships' House, in another place. If and when that happens, it will be important that the views of the noble and learned Lord are on the record for people to read. I have no other questions to ask on the new clause which I hope we may now agree to.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 98 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 37 to 39 not moved.]
Clause 99 agreed to.
Clause 100 [Supplementary]:
5.35 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 57, line 29, leave out ("96 and 97") and insert ("to (Qualifications of county court judges and deputy judges)").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is purely a drafting Amendment and is consequential on the inclusion in the Bill of two new clauses to which the Committee has agreed. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 100, as amended, agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 not moved.]
Clause 101 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 43 to 45 not moved.]
Clause 102 agreed to.
Clauses 103 to 105 agreed to.
Clause 106 [Election courts]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 46:
Page 61, line 18, leave out ("election petitions") and insert ("parliamentary election petitions for the purposes of section 110 of the Representation of the People Act 1949 and section 72(2) of the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962").
The noble and learned Lord said: With this Amendment, it may be convenient to discuss also Amendments Nos. 47, 53, 54, 65, 73 and 75. These Amendments all deal with the same point. They are designed to correct some minor drafting defects which have come to light with respect to the esoteric subject of election courts. They will ensure that the provisions of Clause 106, which relate to the composition of election courts, are linked to the appropriate statutory provisions of existing electoral law. A further inconsistency, which this group of Amendments seeks to put right, is the reference in the Representation of the People Act 1949, as it applies to Northern Ireland, and in the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962, to the actual composition of an election court. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 47:
Line 24, leave out subsection (3).
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on the last one. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 106, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 107 to 113 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 48 and 49 not moved.]
Clause 114 agreed to.
Clause 115 agreed to.
Clause 116 [Making and control of subordinate legislation]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 50:
Page 67, line 12, leave out ("or (2(6)") and insert (" , 62(6) or (Civil jurisdiction exercisable by circuit registrars) (2) ").
The noble and learned Lord said: Amendment No. 50 has already been spoken to in relation to Amendment No. 35. Formally I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 116, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 117 to 120 agreed to.
Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
[Amendments Nos. 51 and 52 not moved.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 53:
Page 91, line 16, after ("Court") insert ("or the Court of Appeal").
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment was spoken to when I moved Amendment No. 46. Formally I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 54:
Page 91, line 17, at end insert—
("In section 110(1) for the words from "two judges" to "their seniority" substitute the words "the two judges of the High Court or the Court of Appeal for the time being selected under section 106 of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978".")
The noble and learned Lard said: Similarly, this Amendment was spoken to when I moved Amendment No. 46. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 55:
Page 92, line 5, at end insert—
("The Administration of Justice Act 1960
In paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 for the word "accordingly" substitute the words "as references to a court of the High Court of Justice in Northern Ireland consisting of two or more judges".").
The noble and learned Lord said: The paragraph to which this Amendment refers is part of a group of provisions which modify the Administration of Justice Act 1960 in its application to Northern Ireland. Paragraph 2 includes a reference to a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. Although such courts will continue with unchanged composition in Northern Ireland, they will no longer be known by the title "Divisional Court". Therefore this change in the wording of that paragraph is necessary to explain what it will be referring to in future. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.44 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 56:
Page 99, line 8, at end insert—
("In section 36 for the words from "tried" to the end substitute the words "at some other place in the same division or in any other division, he may order those proceedings to be transferred to a court sitting at such other place, and they shall be heard and determined by that court accordingly ".").
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is made necessary by the fact that under the provisions of Clause 95 of the Bill, Northern Ireland will be divided into new county court divisions and there will probably be fewer of them than at present. Section 36 of the County Courts Act as it stands enables a judge to transfer a case to another county court in another division if he considers that it would be more fair or more convenient to do so, but it does not enable him to transfer a case to another place within the same division. Unlike the present divisions, however, the new divisions will all have more than one place at which the court is held and it is clearly necessary, therefore, for the judge to have power to order the transfer of a case to another place within the same division while retaining the power to transfer a case to another division. This, it is hoped, will cater for the situation where a transfer within the same division will be more convenient for the parties and witnesses or will lead to a more speedy trial. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 57:
Line 20, at end insert—
("In section 71(3) at the end add the words "or by a circuit registrar".").
The noble and learned Lord said: When speaking to Amendment No. 35 which conferred jurisdiction on circuit registrars and upon which this Amendment is consequential, I indicated that there would be some points which I should like to make in connection with this Amendment. By adding the words "or by a circuit registrar" to Section 71(3) of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1959, this Amendment will provide that a circuit registrar may exercise the jurisdiction and powers of a county court to the extent authorised by any enactment or by county court rules. This will enable rules to provide for the delegation by county court judges of any of their jurisdiction and powers to circuit registrars, as they do at present in respect of clerks of the Crown and peace and county court registrars. Such delegated jurisdiction will be in addition to the statutory jurisdiction of circuit registrars under the new clause. I bee to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 58 to 62 not moved.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 63:
Page 100, line 24, at end insert—
(" (c) in subsection (4) for the words "and (2)" substitute the words "and (1A)".").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is purely a drafting, consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 64:
Page 100, line 28, at end insert—
("In section 147(b) at the end of sub-paragraph (ii) add the words "or by a circuit registrar".").
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment has already been dealt with in connection with Amendment No. 35. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 65:
Page 102, line 4, at end inserts—
"For section 72(2) substitute—
"(2) An election court for the trial of petitions relating to parliamentary elections (in this Act referred to as a "parliamentary election court") shall consist of the two judges of the High Court or the Court of Appeal for the time being selected under section 106 of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978."
In section 83(2), (3) and (4) for the words "Supreme Court" substitute the words "Court of Appeal"."
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment was spoken to with Amendment No. 46. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 66:
Page 102, line 20, at end insert—
("In section 9(1) for the word "six" substitute the word "seven".")
The noble and learned Lord said: As I explained earlier during the discussions in Committee, this Amendment will increase by one year the period of practice required before a solicitor or barrister is eligible for appointment as a resident magistrate. Its purpose is merely to bring the eligibility for appointment as resident magistrate into line with the qualifying period for appointment as a stipendiary magistrate in England and Wales. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The Lord CHANCELLOR The Lord CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 67:
Page 104, line 20, at end insert—
(" The Maintenance and Affiliation Orders Act (Northern Ireland) 1966
In section 10(2) after paragraph (e) insert—
"(f) section 27 of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act 1978 ".")
The noble and learned Lord said: This drafting Amendment is consequential on Clause 27 of the Bill which deals with the maintenance and education of wards of court. Its effect will be to ensure that an order of the High Court made under Clause 27 will be regarded as a maintenance order for the purposes of Part II of the Maintenance and Affiliation Orders Act 1966 dealing with registration, enforcement and variation of such orders. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 68 to 70 not moved.]
Schedule 5, as amended, agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 71 and 72 rot moved.]
Schedule 6 agreed to.
Schedule 7 [Repeals]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 73:
Page 119, column 3, leave out lines 14 to 17.
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment was spoken to in connection with Amendment No. 46. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 74:
Page 124, line 8, at end insert—
"In section 147(b)(ii) the words "and by leave of the judge any action in which the sum claimed or the amount involved does not exceed fifty pounds"."
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment has already been discussed in connection with Amendment No. 35. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 75:
Page 124, line 22, at end insert—
("Section 72(4).
Section 83(5).")
The noble and learned Lord said: This again was discussed in connection with Amendment No. 46. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 76:
Page 126, line 19, column 3, after ("44(b)") insert ("and(e)").
The noble and learned Lord said: Finally, this Amendment has already been spoken to in connection with Amendment No. 36, and your Lordships will be happy to require no further words from me. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 7, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

  NAVAL EXERCISES AND WEAPON TESTS
  NAVAL EXERCISES AND WEAPON TESTS
  THE SEABED: EMPLACEMENT OF EQUIPMENT
  THE SEABED: EMPLACEMENT OF EQUIPMENT
  INTERNATIONAL STRAITS
  INTERNATIONAL STRAITS
  NAVAL EXERCISES NEAR THE USSR
  NAVAL EXERCISES NEAR THE USSR
  OVERFLIGHT OF TERRITORIAL WATERS
  OVERFLIGHT OF TERRITORIAL WATERS
  FISH TRANSHIPMENTS TO SOVIET VESSELS
  FISH TRANSHIPMENTS TO SOVIET VESSELS
  DOMINICA: GENERAL ELECTIONS
  DOMINICA: GENERAL ELECTIONS
  CONTROL OF POLLUTION ACT 1974: IMPLEMENTATION
  CONTROL OF POLLUTION ACT 1974: IMPLEMENTATION
  UNIVERSITY TEACHERS' PAY
  UNIVERSITY TEACHERS' PAY
  SCOTLAND BILL: GUILLOTINED AMENDMENTS
  SCOTLAND BILL: GUILLOTINED AMENDMENTS