Sitting of 13 April 1978

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Order for consideration read.
  To be considered upon Tuesday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NORTHERN IRELAND

    Comprehensive Education
    Mr. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when the Government are to impose comprehensive education in Northern Ireland against the wishes of the people in Northern Ireland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Ray Carter): The Government's decision to eliminate selection at 11-plus, which was announced in June 1977, was taken after an intensive and exhaustive period of consultation. The decision was consistent with the recommendations of the Seventh Advisory Council for Education in Northern Ireland set up by the Government of Northern Ireland in March 1969 and which reported in October 1972. The Government do not believe that it would be helpful to set a rigid timetable for the restructuring of secondary education necessary to implement that decision but do not wish to see unnecessary delay. They have consistently made it clear that they attach more importance to getting reorganisation right than to doing it quickly.
    Mr. Townsend: Is the Northern Ireland Office still unaware that a number of leading educationists have in recent years turned away from policies of going comprehensive at all costs and that a majority
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    of teachers have always been against such policies? Are not the Government putting politics before education once again?
    Mr. Carter: I am sorry to say that the hon. Member has got it almost 100 per cent. wrong. The recommendations upon which the Government are currently working were derived from a report commissioned by the last Minister for Education of the former Unionist Government, so I do not think that we could be considered to be prejudiced in this matter.
    Mr. Flannery: Does my hon. Friend agree with me that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and that both major political parties in our country—since the Tories changed their minds—are on record as being in favour of comprehensive education? Will my hon. Friend tell me by what strange alchemy the questioner can say that the wishes of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland—I do not know how the hon. Member has counted them—are against comprehensive education, which is a great progressive educational measure?
    Mr. Carter: The present Government deal not in alchemy but in facts. The simple truth is that out of the reorganisation of secondary education in Northern Ireland, over 70 per cent. of children, as opposed to 30 per cent., over which some Opposition Members proclaim rights, will get a better education than they formerly would have done.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the hon. Gentleman give a categorical assurance that the reports of the three working committees that his Department has set up will be awaited before he takes any further steps in the reorganisation of education in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Carter: That was made quite clear at the outset. This is a voluntary effort on everyone's part. However, we set up three working parties in order to examine the practical difficulties involved. The reports will be made public before any final decisions are taken.
    Mr. Litterick: Will my hon. Friend accept that Labour Members are solidly behind him in his efforts to introduce comprehensive education in Northern Ireland? However, can he also offer the House any information as to whether this

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    move will afford some opportunity to progress towards desegregation of education in Ulster?
    Mr. Carter: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said, but, quite honestly, desegregation is not a part of these proposals, and the Government have always made that quite clear. However, where we can see some moves towards desegregation in education, the Government will openly give their support.
    Mr. McCusker: Will the hon. Gentleman say what action his right hon. Friend envisages taking against the educational area boards which may defy his wish that they should implement comprehensive education? Does he consider that it may be necessary to bring forward legislation to force them to do so?
    Mr. Carter: I think that that is looking on the black and pessimistic side. We would hope to move towards a position in which, voluntarily, everyone connected with education in Northern Ireland would support the Government's proposals.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Does the hon. Gentleman recall the Secretary of State's tribute to the A-level achievement of Northern Ireland, superior to that of England and Wales? Why seek to destroy some 80 Church of Ireland, Roman Catholic, Methodist and other excellent grammar schools? Why force Northern Ireland to repeat Socialist blunders? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, among other representative bodies, the Association of Local Authorities, representing the 26 district councils, has overwhelmingly voted against compulsory comprehensivisation? Is he also aware that there are now some 15,000 people in the Ulster Parents Union determined to resist?
    Mr. Carter: Instead of reading from a prepared brief, the hon. Gentleman should pay some attention to what is said. The truth is that the Ulster Unionist Government in Northern Ireland and their Minister of Education thought that there was room for change and improvement, and it is on that path that this Government are set.

    Youth Unemployment
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent initiatives have been taken to deal with
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    the problem of youth unemployment in Northern Ireland.
    The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. J. D. Concannon): On 30th June 1977, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced the youth opportunities programme for Northern Ireland, which parallels provision in Great Britain. The Northern Ireland programme will involve a significant expansion and development of the wide range of schemes already built up over the years to cope with the chronic unemployment problem in the Province. Under the programme, the number of Government-funded training and work experience places will increase from 4,000 to 6,000. A significant part of the expansion is being sought through the participation of community groups in areas which have particularly high levels of unemployment.
    Mr. Canavan: As about one-sixth of the 60,000 unemployed in Northern Ireland are young people under the age of 20, does my right hon. Friend agree that there could be long-term damaging social consequences if so many young people in Northern Ireland continue to be denied the right to work? Therefore, will he continue to encourage new schemes of employment and training, such as the Derry youth and community workshop, which was launched earlier this week?
    Mr. Concannon: The problems in Northern Ireland are and have consistently been bigger than in the rest of the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend has his figures absolutely right when he says that those under 20 form about one-sixth of the unemployed. But I would not say that the social problems of unemployment, including youth unemployment, are any different from those in the rest of the United Kingdom. I have pledged, and I think that my right hon. Friend has also pledged, that one of the planks of our policy in Northern Ireland is to do something about the economic situation.
    Mr. Bradford: We welcome the concern evidenced by the Minister in this regard, but can he tell us what percentage of young people from the Government apprenticeship training centres are absorbed by industry in Northern Ireland and whether he feels that resources should be used to widen the scope of these training

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    centres or should be applied immediately to job creation?
    Mr. Concannon: I am looking at all sorts of areas in Northern Ireland. We have a fairly good battery of other schemes. The number of places was at about the 4,000 level until we expanded it. We are now up to about 4,500 places and are still increasing them. In three-quarters of the trades, most if not all of the people concerned were found jobs.

    Republic of Ireland (Talks)
    Mr. Watkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his talks with the Ministers of the Irish Republic.
    Mr. Litterickasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland or other Irish political leaders in the near future.
    Mr. Craigasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in his recent discussions with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic, whether progress was made in obtaining an agreement for the extradition of persons wanted for trial in respect of the commission or of aiding and abetting in the commission of crimes of a terrorist nature.
    Mr. Molyneauxasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on his discussions with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic.
    Mr. Goodladasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next expects to meet the Irish Foreign Minister.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Roy Mason): I have no meeting with Ministers of the Republic planned, but meetings at all levels between the two Governments take place as necessary. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had a short discussion with the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic on 7th April. They reaffirmed the views voiced in the communique issued after their meeting last September and reviewed progress since then.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: I shall call hon. Members in the order in which their Questions are being answered.
    Mr. Watkinson: Can my right hon. Friend indicate whether he takes the view that relationships between the North and the South have improved as a result of contacts between my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of the South? Can he reiterate that the guarantee of the British people to the Northern Irish people remains? Can he also say whether he is engaged in talks on matters of cross-border security? In his last speech in the House, he indicated that there could be a slight area of improvement there.
    Mr. Mason: As far as I am concerned—and I am sure that this applies to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—there is a good working relationship between the North and the South. The meeting held by the two Prime Ministers was very short. It was informal and private. What is most important is that they jointly reaffirmed the communique from the 10 Downing Street conference of last September. There is a Question on security and the use of the border later on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Litterick: In his talks with Irish politicians and the Irish Prime Minister, has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State yet been able to reach any judgment as to whether the current public debate in the Republic of Ireland about possible federalisation as a solution to the—shall we say?—total Irish problem could form the basis for a new political initiative from Westminster?
    Mr. Mason: No, Sir. I do not think that that is so. If utterances are made which tend to frighten the majority in the North—the Protestant population in particular—that makes it much more difficult to make political progress. I think that it is far better that that should be understood. Anybody who makes speeches about the unity of Ireland or national aspirations should bear in mind that that makes it much more politically difficult for me as Secretary of State. It is harder to talk to all the parties concerned if they are frightened, rather than our wooing them.
    Mr. Craig: Whilst one would welcome any improved relationship between the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic,

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    may I ask the Secretary of State to bear in mind that, in his own words, there is a gap in our security provisions that could be filled by more energetic efforts on the part of the Irish Republic? I am sorry that he was not a party to the talks. I hope that he will draw to the attention of the Government of the Irish Republic the need to close this area and, in particular, to consider the European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism, and more specifically the introduction of a satisfactory extradition agreement. All people in Northern Ireland are satisfied that the present so-called common jurisdiction in relation to terrorism is not a workable proposition.
    Mr. Mason: As I have said in the House before, border security between the RUC and the Garda is good. We would like to be able to develop on that. Terrorism, whether in the North or the South, is the common enemy of us both.
    As for the question of the European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism, the Irish Government are well aware of our view that all members of the Council of Europe should become party to this important agreement. We would wish to see the Republic sign and ratify the convention without reservation and implement it in the same comprehensive way as the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Molyneaux: But will Her Majesty's Government seek to convince the Government of the Irish Republic that they are fast losing the respect of the other European countries which have taken effective action to suppress terrorism? Will he and the Government point out to the Government of the Irish Republic that it is in their own interests to join in combined efforts to suppress terrorism in all its forms throughout Europe?
    Mr. Mason: Yes, Sir. I think that the Irish Republic well understands that. I think that because of the exchanges of recent times they are fully apprised of it. I am hopeful, therefore, that we can develop along the lines I have suggested. But, border security being good, let us develop that further.
    Mr. Neave: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we on the Conservative Benches share the resolve to put aside our differences with Dublin at present but want to reach an agreed determination to
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    defeat terrorism? Is he also aware, in regard to questions raised by other hon. Members, that there is very strong criticism of the Irish Government in Europe for signing the Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism, in view of the number of people who are now hiding in Dublin from the police in the North? In view of the number of people who are skulking in the Republic, who may or who may not have committed acts of terrorism but are wanted by the RUC, will the right hon. Gentleman ask this very relevant question: what action would the Republic take if a member of the Red Brigade or the Baader-Meinhof gang were to take refuge in the Republic at present?
    Mr. Mason: I would not want to widen the question into such dimensions. I think that the Irish Government understand the growing pressure throughout the Western European countries on the acceptance of the convention. We have a second best—the Criminal Jurisdiction Act 1975, agreed by both the South and the North. I would hope that we could get some results from that.
    Mr. Townsend: Is the Secretary of State aware that he has told this House for years that there is good co-operation across the border when there is much evidence on the ground that that is not so? Why should there not be more liaison visits between the respective forces? Why should there not be joint patrols? Why cannot we reach better agreement with regard to overflying rights?
    Mr. Mason: The hon. Gentleman, of course, will be impulsive and fly in the face of history. We have made good progress between the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Garda of the South, but the hon. Gentleman knows well—and so does the House—that it is not so easy to make that sort of co-operative progress between the British Army and the Irish Army. Nevertheless, in spite of their historical difficulties, we have been gettng even the Irish Army to co-operate more in recent times.
    Mr. Fitt: My right hon. Friend has laid particular stress on the fact that a short meeting of the two Prime Ministers seems to have resolved all the difficulties, which would seem to belie the fact of the crisis which existed prior to the meeting. Was there a crisis, or was it

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    an artificial crisis? Is there now no further reason for a meeting between my right hon. Friend and the Irish Foreign Secretary?
    With regard to frightening statements which may upset the Northern Ireland majority, is my right hon. Friend aware that many statements are made, particularly by the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave), who only recently made a very bellicose statement in Northern Ireland which put him fairly and squarely on the side of an intransigent Unionist majority, to the total exclusion of any consideration of the minority in Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend insist that the situation in Northern Ireland is not, as the hon. Member for Abingdon would put it to the House, purely military, but is a political question at all times?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions are getting longer and longer. This can only result in some hon. Members not being called.
    Mr. Mason: First of all, there has been no crisis between the North and the South.
    Mr. Fitt: My right hon. Friend could have fooled me.
    Mr. Mason: If the hon. Gentleman wants to heed Press speculation—it, of course, wants to encourage conflict—so be it. There was no crisis between the North and the South. Secondly, even before the La Mon House incident five or six weeks ago, I had indicated that there might be reason for a meeting. I had also indicated to the South that I was prepared to go on the Thursday before Easter, but because of the death of the former President that meeting was cancelled. In fact, things were progressing along that path. But, shortly after the proposed meeting, the planned meeting between the Prime Ministers was imminent, and, therefore, there was no reason why they should not have discussed it. It was only a short, polite, informal meeting.
    Mr. Neave: In view of the ritual inaccuracy of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on these occasions, will the right hon. Gentleman please take note of what I actually said? Will he tell the Ministers in Dublin to have no illusions? We on the Conservative side stand four-square for the Union of Great
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    Britain and Northern Ireland. That is what I actually said.
    Mr. Mason: Yes, I appreciate that, and it is right that the Opposition should stand four-square with Her Majesty's Government on that sort of bipartisan policy.
    In answer to an earlier question, I must reiterate—it was said during the course of the Prime Ministers' meetings—that, as long as the majority of the people of Northern Ireland by decree, and, indeed, by referendum, wish to remain a part of the United Kingdom, so it shall be, unless they decree otherwise.

    Police
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to achieve his long-term strategy of developing the capability of the police to a point at which they can discharge their duties without military assistance.
    Mr. Mason: The continuing build-up in the strength and effectiveness of the RUC represents steady progress towards our long-term aim, as does its growing acceptability in the community and its success in bringing terrorists to justice. But the nature of the threat still calls for military support for the RUC in some areas, and it is too early to forecast when it will no longer be needed.
    Mr. Jenkins: What my right hon. Friend has said is encouraging, both in answer to this Question and in answer to previous Questions, but does he agree that the presence of the military, while containing the situation, also helps to congeal it to some extent? Will he therefore agree that, the solution ultimately being a political one, the gradual phasing out of military support and the gradual strengthening of the Royal Ulster Constabulary would provide a basis on which perhaps further steps could be made towards reaching a political solution to the problem?
    Mr. Mason: Yes, I recognise the point which my hon. Friend makes, but we shall have the security forces in Northern Ireland in the strength that we deem to be necessary as long as the threat remains.
    The position concerning the Royal Ulster Constabulary is most encouraging. During 1977, 679 recruits were

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    accepted in the RUC. This was the highest annual figure ever. As a result, the force strength rose during the year by 439 officers. Everything possible is being done to maintain this favourable trend. The gradual introduction of the police to the fore, backed by considerable recruitment, is taking place, and the security forces are there in the main to back up and help the RUC.
    Mr. Powell: Will the Secretary of State confirm, in the light of the terms of the Question, that in the view of Her Majesty's Government there is a permanent role for the Ulster Defence Regiment in maintaining the security of that part of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Mason: Yes, I would affirm that. Recruitment for the UDR is also going well. We have 5,800 members of the Ulster Defence Regiment. We have now 2,100 who are full-time. Therefore, the full-time recruitment is going well. The regiment is part of the British Army, under the command of the General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland, and is playing a good role as far as we are concerned.
    Mr. Freudasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the current establishment figure for the Royal Ulster Constabulary; and what has been the level of recruitment in each of the last four years.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. James A. Dunn): The present strength of the regular RUC is 5,789, against an authorised establishment of 6,500. The numbers of recruits joining the force have increased in each of the last four years: 356 joined in 1976, 505 in 1975, 581 in 1976, and 679 in 1977. In the first three months of this year, 149 recruits have joined the regular force.
    Mr. Freud: The House will welcome those figures. In view of the high cost of compensation paid by the British Government, will the Minister now seek to step up recruitment even further so that the very efficient RUC can work to near enough its establishment figure?
    Mr. Dunn: I wish I could assure the hon. Gentleman that it was possible to step up recruitment. A maximum effort is now being put in. I believe that that is
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    shown by the figures I have announced today. If it were humanly possible to get more recruits, I would welcome it.
    Mr. Molyneaux: Does the Minister share the concern which has so often been expressed in this House with regard to the small percentage of Roman Catholics serving in the RUC? Does he agree that more might be done by certain political parties and Church bodies in order to improve the situation, particularly as intimidation decreases?
    Mr. Dunn: I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that I would welcome more people from the minority community joining the RUC. However, there is difficulty in identifying such statistics, because on the application forms that are submitted no religious affiliation is stated; that is not on the application form. Indeed, if it were on the form, the first objections would come from the Opposition side of the House.
    Mr. Fitt: Surely my hon. Friend does not really expect us to believe that people in Northern Ireland do not know the religious quotas in the RUC. Does he agree that it is not a question of numbers? We could have 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or 20,000 members of the RUC, but if there is not an overall acceptance by the majority of people—from both the majority and minority communities—numbers do not matter. It is the duty of the Government to try to bring about a political situation in which the police service in Northern Ireland will be accepted in every district.
    Mr. Dunn: I hope my hon. Friend will appreciate that every effort is being made to bring about a political solution. I would differ with him with regard to the knowledge of those who are in the force. It is fair to assume that by education certain people would follow a particular faith, but that is not absolute at the end of the day, as my hon. Friend well knows.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Will the Minister tell the House whether the establishment of the RUC is sufficient to enable that force to cover the whole of Ulster, which is part of the United Kingdom? If it is not, what increase would he like to see? Are there many areas where the RUC cannot patrol? Will he identify those areas and get this matter rectified as soon as possible?
    Mr. Dunn: The hon. Gentleman might unknowingly be doing a disservice to the RUC. There are no areas where its force and presence are not known. There is an establishment of 6,500, which has not yet been reached, even with an energetic and vigorous recruitment campaign. The hon. Gentleman's question would be better asked when we reach establishment.

    Temporary Employment Subsidy
    Mr. McCuskerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions have taken place over the continuation of the temporary employment subsidy in Northern Ireland; and if he will indicate the arrangements which have been made to consider applications from Northern Ireland companies which were alleged to be in competition with companies from the Irish Republic.
    Mr. Concannon: Discussions have taken place at ministerial and at official levels between Her Majesty's Government and the EEC Commission. Discussions at official level have also taken place under the auspices of the EEC Commission with member States.
    The question of competition with firms in the Irish Republic arises only in sectors of the textile, clothing and footwear industries. Arrangements to deal with such cases have been notified to the EEC Commission and will be the subject of discussion with the Commission in the near future.
    Mr. McCusker: Will the Minister of State confirm that the Republic of Ireland orchestrated opposition to the continuation of this subsidy in Northern Ireland? Does not this expose the hypocrisy of representatives from Eire to the EEC in claiming to look after the interests of the people of Northern Ireland even more so than Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Concannon: The hon. Gentleman should be a little careful, because the original complaint was not from the South about the North. The original complaint was from three member States—I think that the South was one of them—but was against TES in the United Kingdom as a whole. The hon. Gentleman has congratulated us on the work that we have done in keeping TES in Northern Ireland as we have.
    Mr. Dunlop: In view of the figures given by the Secretary of State of the intake into the various security forces, may I ask whether the Minister is aware of the deep frustration of many people who seek to join these forces and are rejected? Is the Minister also aware that I have a constituent who served six years in the British Army, came out with the rank of corporal, tried to join the UDR and has been refused six times, even though his last application was supported by his commanding officer? Will the Minister tell us something of the techniques employed by the selection boards in rejecting these people?
    Mr. Concannon: I think that the hon. Gentleman is jumping the gun on his later Question. I do not think that I have had any applications for TES from the UDR.
    Mr. Madden: Will my right hon. Friend make it abundantly clear that the modifications which the British Government have been forced to make to the TES have come about as a direct response to interventions from the Commissioner for competition, and that it is just as well for those who were so keen to ensure that Britain became a member of the Common Market to ponder on the consequences at this stage?
    Mr. Concannon: I am responsible only for the affairs of Northern Ireland and the effect that it has on business there. I can only say—
    Mr. Russell Kerr: It gives us an insight.
    Mr. Concannon: It gives us an insight. My hon. Friend is right. But I am responsible only for the matters that I have mentioned and for the workings of the TES system within Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Neave: The TES may have great advantages in the short term. Will the Minister of State say what is the Government's policy for job creation in the long term? He will remember that he was asked twice in this House, in the Appropriation Order debate, what was the Government's policy in regard to the target of the Quigley Report. What is now the position in regard to that target?
    Mr. Concannon: We have been implementing the Quigley Report. Some of the major recommendations in that report

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    have already been carried out. As the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, we are increasing public spending in Northern Ireland tremendously on this account. At the end of the day, the answer with regard to employment in Northern Ireland is more jobs. That will take a great deal of public expenditure. I hope that hon. Members acknowledge that. It also means that we must sell the image of Northern Ireland. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is very difficult selling Northern Ireland to investors. However, we have recently had some success.

    Security
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security in the Province.
    Mr. Powellasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what conclusions he has drawn from the course of terrorist and anti-terrorist activity since the La Mon House outrage; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Dunlopasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation.
    Mr. Mason: In the four weeks since I last addressed the House, one person, a soldier, has been killed.
    Since 1st March, 119 people have been charged with serious terrorist offences, including eight with murder and 21 with attempted murder. Over 70 weapons have been recovered, including an M60 machine gun, and over 6,000 rounds of ammunition. A man wanted by the RUC for questioning in connection with a number of terrorist crimes in the South Derry area has also been captured.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: The House will be aware of the latest reported bombing of soldiers and police by terrorists who escaped across the border. Is the Secretary of State in constant touch with his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary with regard to representations in Dublin to ensure that in future constitutional legalisms do not defeat justice?
    Mr. Mason: I do not think that constitutional legalisms are defeating justice.
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    As I indicated earlier, we have the Criminal Jurisdiction Act 1975, which is operative on both sides of the border. One of the problems is to be able to give sufficient information where the authorities across the border believe it to be insufficient evidence in order to operate under the Criminal Jurisdiction Act.
    Mr. Powell: In view of the growing and welcome success of the RUC in obtaining arrests and convictions, will the Secretary of State ensure that all concerned are alerted to two dangers which arise in such circumstances? The first is a renewed campaign of denigration and false allegation against the RUC and the second is some new and different twist in the campaign of murder and intimidation to attempt, however vainly, to hold back the recruitment of the RUC and the discharge of its duties.
    Mr. Mason: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right to keep the House alert to those possibilities. Those of us who have responsibility for security in Northern Ireland discuss these matters weekly. There has been a propaganda campaign against the RUC. At this stage it has dissipated, but it could rise again. Since the La Mon restaurant incident, the backlash—revulsion, really—of the mass of the populace in Northern Ireland has certainly warned the Provisional IRA that the people will not contend with that any longer. Consequently, the RUC has got more co-operation. The people of the Province have managed to raise £150,000 for the relatives of the La Mon House victims. Indeed, the students of the universities have marched en bloc—4,000 of them—through the streets of Belfast against the Provisional IRA. I think that that message is getting across.
    Mr. Dunlop: I reckon I was somewhat out of order, Mr. Speaker, the last time I got to my feet. I apologise. Without reiterating all that I said, may I ask the Secretary of State whether he thinks that a man who served six years in the British Army and came out with honours as a corporal is good enough for the UDR?
    Mr. Mason: I would not be aware of every individual applicant to join the UDR. The House will recognise that it is not my specific responsibility. That would fall under the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. There is a tight screening

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    process. That was called for by the people of the Province. I do not know why this person has not been successful in his application.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Can my right hon. Friend give an indication of the source of the arms that have been discovered or captured by the security forces in Northern Ireland during the last three months?
    Mr. Mason: No, I cannot give the source. Indeed, it would be difficult to give the trail. I do not think that it would be right or proper to start to reveal those details. It has already been publicised that weapons were on the way to Ireland from the Middle East and, indeed, were apprehended at Antwerp in Belgium. There are these connections, perhaps buying illegal arms, although not necessarily a relationship with any other terrorist organisation. That is one of the routes.
    Mr. Carson: Does the Secretary of State agree that the best way of achieving greater security is to make greater use of the UDR? Will he increase its full-time complement?
    Mr. Mason: The UDR is constantly being used. When the General Officer Commanding wishes it to carry out more patrols, operate more vehicle checkpoints and carry out other duties in the Province, he can call upon it quite freely. With regard to conrates or the professionals, recruitment is going on but we still have not reached our top establishment.
    Mr. McNamara: I was lost in admiration of my right hon. Friend's reply to an earlier supplementary question about the UDR. I wonder whether he appreciated the significance of what he was saying about the permanence of the UDR. Surely it exists for a temporary emergency, and Her Majesty's Government should be thinking not in terms of its permanent existence but of creating a situation in which it is no longer necessary for it to exist.
    Mr. Mason: It would be most helpful, of course, if we could say that there was no longer any use for HerMajesty's Forces in the United Kingdom as a whole. But, as regards the Ulster Defence Regiment, we are developing a professional element, and it is providing a useful back-up for the British Army in Northern Ireland.
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    It must be recognised that, as the units of the British Army themselves reduce in number, the UDR will be able to carry out some of the duties which the British Army has been carrying out hitherto.
    Mr. Wm. Ross: Although I appreciate that it is not possible for the Secretary of State to identify the source of all weapons which are captured, may I ask whether he is yet in a position to say whether the American authorities have been able to let the RUC know whether the M60 machine gun which was captured had been stolen or sold?
    Mr. Mason: The RUC is following through its inquiries to try to establish the source of the M60 machine gun, but no evidence has yet come to light.

    Homosexuality Law
    Mr. Bradfordasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will comment on the proposed changes in the law in Northern Ireland in respect of homosexuality.
    Mr. Dunn: I intend to publish proposals for a draft Order in Council which, if it is approved, would make certain changes in the law relating to homosexuality. The proposals will be accompanied by an explanatory document with the intention of assisting the process of consultation, which will then begin and will continue for a period of three months. Careful consideration will be given to the response and representations submitted during this extended period before firm proposals are put before this House.
    Mr. Bradford: Does not the Minister agree that changes in the divorce law and in the licensing laws in Northern Ireland are a sufficient imposition upon the Province for one Parliament? Does he not accept that the method by which these changes are to take place is quite reprehensible as we shall not have an opportunity to amend the Government's proposals? Therefore, will he be guided by the majority of the people of Northern Ireland, who do not regard a change in the law on homosexuality as being a matter of high priority?
    Mr. Dunn: The hon. Gentleman brings two matters to the attention of the House, the first of which deals with a constitutional aspect. This House decided the methods by which Northern Ireland

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    should receive its legislation. Until this House changes its mind, I am its captive. As for the hon. Member's question, it is true that there are some major pieces of legislation before the House. However, this is no excuse for me or my right hon. and hon. Friends to neglect to prepare for such legislation to come before the House.
    Mr. Powell: As one who supported the corresponding legislation in Great Britain when it went through this House, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware of the constitutional difficulty of applying to Northern Ireland by Government decision and on Government responsibility measures which are adopted in respect of the United Kingdom only on the initiative of Private Members and as a result of free votes in this House?
    Mr. Dunn: As the right hon. Gentleman says, there are problems, but there would be no excuse if the present Government neglected their responsibility of keeping in touch with social law reform in Great Britain.
    Mr. McNamara: Will my hon. Friend point out to his critics that the remedy for this situation lies in their own hands and that, if they came forward with sensible proposals to the Government for devolved government within the Six Counties, they could then decide their own domestic legislation without having to bother this House about it?
    Mr. Dunn: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I hope that those hon. Members who heard him say that will take note of it.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Does not the Minister agree that he has made a very serious statement in that he has said that constitutionally he cannot proceed with any legislation for Northern Ireland by way of a Bill? Is he aware that his statement will cause great alarm to the people of Northern Ireland? Is he aware also that across the whole Province there is a rejection of this proposal? Should not people in Northern Ireland have every right in this House to express a view about and to amend legislation of this nature? Will he now consider bringing this matter before the House in the form of a Bill?
    Mr. Dunn: I did not say what the hon. Gentleman accused me of saying, and
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    any interpretation which he puts upon what I said is his own responsibility. I am aware of the sensitivity of this issue. Strenuous representations have been made; they are bound to be made in a situation of this kind. They will all be borne in mind, including a petition which has been presented to me by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and his right hon. and hon. Friends.

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL COMMITTEE)
  Mr. Loveridgeasked the Prime Minister if, when considering the nomination of future members of the EEC Social and Economic Committee, he will reduce to seven the number of members representing trade unions so as to allow for at least one representative to speak directly for small businesses.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): Membership of the Economic and Social Committee of the EEC is due to be renewed in September. The United Kingdom, in common with other large member States of the Community, sends 24 representatives, of whom eight represent employers' interests, eight represent employee interests and eight represent a variety of other interests. There are no plans to change that overall balance; but, within that framework, the Government intend to nominate representatives covering as wide a range of interests as possible, and consultations to that end are now under way.
  Mr. Loveridge: Although I am encouraged by that answer, is the Prime Minister aware that the smaller business sector in Europe is proportionately much stronger than our own and, therefore, deserves fuller direct representation from us? Is he aware also that the Opposition support his measures to strengthen our own small business sector in order to expand and create jobs? Will he, therefore, continue to adopt further Conservation policies for small businesses as the General Election draws nearer?
  The Prime Minister: As the Budget made clear, there is no doubt about the Government's policy in relation to the encouragement of small businesses and enterprises, and we shall continue to do

  1657
  that. As for whether there can be separate representation on the Economic and Social Committee, there is a great deal of competition for that and a tremendous number of people have asked whether they can be represented. We shall not be able to satisfy them all.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Quite apart from cutting down trade union representation on the Committee, will my right hon. Friend make sure that someone is there who specifically understands the problems of youth unemployment? It will be quite impossible, if we are to have grandiose schemes from the Commission, without having those capable of putting them into commission as soon as possible.
  The Prime Minister: Certainly I shall take note of that. Of course, the employers' group and the employees' group nominate their own representatives. I am sure that the trade unions and perhaps the employers will keep my hon. Friend's request in mind.
  Mr. Maurice Macmillan: In view of the Government's conversion to supporting small businesses, may I press the Prime Minister to include somewhere in the list of representatives someone to represent unquoted companies and unincorporated businesses—and here I must declare an interest—since these companies represent some 40 per cent. of the gross domestic product?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, but the Confederation of British Industry includes a number of these organisations and there is, therefore, every reason why they should look to the CBI for representation. However, I shall bear in mind the right hon. Gentleman's request.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to the report prepared for the Anglo-German Foundation by Arthur D. Little on small businesses in the United Kingdom and Western Europe, and can he say whether any of the valuable recommendations in that report have been drawn to the attention of the Departments which should be taking some action on them?
  The Prime Minister: I have not read it myself, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who is active in this area, will have done so. In case my right hon.
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  Friend has not done so, I shall draw his attention to what the hon. Gentleman said.
  Mr. Welsh: Will the Prime Minister follow the lead given by other EEC States in encouraging small businesses by, for example, introducing a fully-fledged Minister for the self-employed and small business affairs and by immediately abolishing the iniquitous self-employed levy?
  The Prime Minister: The SNP seems to be a little behind the times. I thought I had made it clear—I think that everyone else in the House knew it already—that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has special responsibility for small firms and that in the Department of Industry an Under-Secretary of State handles these affairs too.

  DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (PERSONAL FILES)
  Mr. Tebbitasked the Prime Minister if, since he became Prime Minister, he has requested or received personal files concerning private citizens, copies of such files or personal information from such files from the Department of Health and Social Security other than for normal investigations that are being carried out into particular cases.
  The Prime Minister: No.
  Mr. Tebbit: Is the Prime Minister aware that his answer does not surprise me, and that I welcome it? Does he not agree that the citizen should be assured by some form of code or convention that it is simply not possible for Ministers to have access to individuals' files which they might misuse for political purposes? Will he agree that no Minister should do that and no Prime Minister could regard it as anything other than totally abhorrent if at any stage that were done?
  The Prime Minister: I am obliged to the hon. Member for writing to me about this matter. I entirely agree that it would be totally wrong if correspondence about private citizens were misused for political purposes. It would breed mistrust if it were thought that a Minister on either side of the House—present, future or past

  1659
  —was doing so. I can give an assurance that on my understanding this does not happen. It would be quite foreign and wrong if it were to happen.
  I considered drawing up a form of code or convention as the hon. Member has suggested, but there are a number of circumstances in which Ministers may want to consult papers. Therefore, we must leave it to Ministers' good faith and there must be good faith between us that these papers will not be misused.
  Mr. Fitt: Does the answer that the Prime Minister has just given cover that part of the United Kingdom known as Northern Ireland? In Northern Ireland there is a suspicion that many secret files relating to national health and insurance are vetted every day by members of the security forces. Will he give an assurance that this is not so and that it is a practice with which he would not be in accord?
  The Prime Minister: Of course, this is not a practice which should be followed. It is totally foreign to what I have said. I will not give the assurance that my hon. Friend has asked for in the first part of his question because this is a serious charge and I should look into it. However, no one should deduce from my answer that this practice is happening.
  Mr. Ralph Howell: In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), the Prime Minister said that it is not happening. Will he say whether it did happen?
  The Prime Minister: I cannot account for any Administrations earlier than my own—and in saying that I am referring to all Administrations previous to my own.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Mr. Silvesterasked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13th April 1978.
  The Prime Minister: This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Later today I shall be leaving for a visit to West Yorkshire.
  Mr. Silvester: Will the Prime Minister spare a moment to consider with his party colleagues how much damage was done by the distribution of 100,000 leaflets by the Young Socialists to schools before he intervened? Does he believe that it is desirable to continue—as is reported—the process of recruitment in schools when he takes an opposite view about the National Front?
  The Prime Minister: I do not answer at the Dispatch Box for party matters. This is a party matter, and I have nothing to say at the Dispatch Box.
  Mr. Spearing: In his busy schedule, will the Prime Minister take time to reflect on proposals made last weekend in Brussels for a semi European currency linked to the European unit of account? Will he agree that the way to resolve employment and industrial difficulties is through world trade? Will he agree that this is a much better way of solving the problems of both this country and the EEC? Such proposals as those put forward in Brussels are half-way to economic and monetary union, which would be opposed by hon. Members of this House.
  The Prime Minister: I dealt with most of these questions last Monday, when I made a report on the subject. I have not changed my mind since then.
  Mrs. Thatcher: Has the Prime Minister taken time today to consider the effects on the financial markets of the Budget and, in particular, the effect of the declared intention by both the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to introduce a fourteenth Budget in July? Will he agree that quarterly budgets add to uncertainty and induce lack of confidence in the markets at a time when we need confidence?
  The Prime Minister: As a general matter, I have often noticed that the financial markets over-react to statements, and I do not regard them as good short-term judges of speeches or statements. I think that the Leader of the Opposition is rather misquoting what has been said. There has been no declared intention to my knowledge to introduce another Budget, and, indeed, I am not aware of any intention to do so. All that has been said is that we are now working towards a world situation—I know that the right hon. Lady disapproves of these international gatherings—in which it will be possible

  1661
  to restore some confidence. Unless and until that happens, I do not see any prospect at all for another Budget.
  Mrs. Thatcher: May I press the Prime Minister a little further? The fall in the markets today was serious, and it came after an increase of 1 per cent. in the minimum lending rate. It also came in the face of the Chancellor's own forecasts of rising inflation next year and of economic figures forecasting a deteriorating trade balance in the first half of this year. Is the Prime Minister now saying that there is no present intention to introduce a July Budget? If so, this would add to confidence.
  The Prime Minister: I am obliged to the Leader of the Opposition for putting it in that direct way. I thought I had already said that. I know of no intention—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—to introduce a Budget in July, and I should have thought that I would be the first to be informed of such an event. I am sure that the right hon. Lady is trying to restore confidence, and I assure her that, as I know of no intention, there is no intention. Of course, from time to time there are changes in our domestic situation and in the international situation, and that is what the July Summit is all about. We want to get a higher level of world trade. But, unless and until that happens—and so far the preliminary work has not proceeded far enough—there is no prospect of a July Budget.
  Mr. Mellish: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, if the Chancellor is in the same mood in future as he was on Tuesday, as far as we are concerned he can come here every day?
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) and many others feel that way. This Budget brought benefits to almost every person in the country. We have said constantly that it is important that we should not overstretch ourselves, and the Budget is intended to keep within the proper limits. We shall continue to govern the country in that way.
  Mr. Baker: Will the Prime Minister fill in that part of the Budget strategy about which the Chancellor was rather coy? We want to hear from the Prime
  1662
  Minister what level of wage settlements he would like to see when phase 3 expires later this year. What will happen in phase 4? Will there be a limit of 5 per cent. or 7 per cent.? If there is no limit for the private sector, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor must decide whether there will be one for the public sector and what the level of wage settlements will be.
  The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Member for reminding me of all these factors. I assure him that they are kept fully in mind.
  Mr. Jay: Is the Prime Minister aware that, if we had adopted the Tory policy of much bigger tax cuts and, therefore, bigger deficits, the effect on the markets would have been very serious?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, that is undoubtedly true. This is the dilemma in which the Opposition find themselves. On the one hand they press irresponsibly for bigger tax cuts, and on the other they look at the level of tax that we have decided to cut and then they try to rebuke us because they think that we have gone too far.
  Sir P. Bryan: Further to the Prime Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester), may I ask him to make an appointment today with the Secretary of State for Education and Science and ask her opinion of the fact that Mr. Andy Bevan, an official of his party, took part in and organised the distribution of leaflets aimed at recruiting young children to the National Union of Schoolchildren?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. It is well established, Mr. Speaker—and you would correct me if I endeavoured to break the rule—that I do not answer at the Dispatch Box on party matters. I answer on the responsibilities of the Government.
  Mr. Adley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister has just said that he will not answer Questions on a party matter. Are you aware that the Table Office has refused to accept Questions to the Prime Minister about his message to the Labour candidate at Glasgow, Garscadden because it was said that it was a party matter? But presumably the Prime Minister used No. 10 Downing

  1663
  Street paper on which to write that message. May we have some clarification on the matter, because the Prime Minister is trying to have it both ways?
  Mr. Speaker: I have already received—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Order. I hope that hon. Members will have the courtesy to wait until I have finished. I have already received private representations from another hon. Member on that matter. I have promised the hon. Gentleman concerned to look at the matter, and I shall be writing to him.

  QUESTIONS TO THE PRIME MINISTER
  Mr. Madden: You may recollect on Tuesday, Mr. Speaker, ruling me out of order when I mentioned the subject of a Member from Sussex dealing with a Question about Sussex. Do you agree that of the first four Questions tabled to the Prime Minister today, three are not general Questions and the only general Question is Question No. Q4? Will you consider giving some guidance to Members about what you consider are general Questions as opposed to detailed Questions? Could some indication be put alongside the Question as to the position? Finally, do you not think that the time has come when, instead of Prime Minister's Questions taking place twice a week and only for 15 minutes, it might be useful to consider having a half-hourly session once a week?
  Mr. Speaker: The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks is not for me. The first part is a matter for me and the answer is quite clear. The whole House knows when a Question lays itself open to what I have called "shot in the dark" questions. I try to discourage them.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mrs. Thatcher: Will the Leader of the House please state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 17TH APRIL—Conclusion of the debate on the Budget Statement.
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Second Reading of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords].
TUESDAY 18TH APRIL and WEDNESDAY 19TH APRIL—Further progress in Committee on the Wales Bill.
THURSDAY 20TH APRIL—Supply [13th Allotted Day]: There will be a debate on the National Health Service, on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Remaining stages of the Medical Bill [Lords].
FRIDAY 21ST APRIL—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 24TH APRIL—Second Reading of the Nuclear Safeguards and Electricity (Finance) Bill.
Mrs. Thatcher: I should like to put three points to the right hon. Gentleman. First, last week he promised a statement on what the Government propose to do about the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference on Northern Ireland. The statement has not yet been made and we should like to have it fairly soon. When may we have it? Presumably it will be made some time next week.
Secondly, I asked the right hon. Gentleman last week for a debate on Rhodesia. This matter now gets more and more urgent as the negotiations are under way. May I impress upon him that we believe that it is urgent for this House to debate Rhodesia? Everybody else except this House is saying what should be done. May we have a debate very soon?
Thirdly, we have had only a brief statement about parliamentary papers. The supply has not improved. We are going into the Finance Bill period when not only hon. Members but people outside will need to know what is happening, to be able to obtain Hansard and quickly to know the answers to their questions. When may we expect either another statement or a full supply of parliamentary papers?
Mr. Foot: It is true that I indicated last week that I hoped that we would soon have a statement on the Speaker's Conference report. I hope that a statement will be made very early next week. I hope that that will meet the point made by the right hon. Lady.

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I do not think I have anything to add to what I said to the right hon. Lady last week on the subject of a debate on Rhodesia. The matter was raised just before we adjourned for Easter. I am not saying that there should not be a return at some stage to the matter, but I have no further proposals for a statement now.
I fully appreciate the concern in all parts of the House about parliamentary papers. The talks about which I informed the House on 3rd April 1978 resulted in agreement between the management of Her Majesty's Stationery Office and the National Graphical Association nationally on the basis of a resumption of normal working at St. Stephen's Parliamentary Press. This included provision for an examination of the possibility of introducing a self-financing productivity scheme. This was recommended by the officials of the chapel concerned but has so far proved unacceptable.
The Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service has taken the initiative today in approaching both parties, and I think that we must leave the matter there for the moment. I fully appreciate the great importance of the matter and the concern expressed by the right hon. Lady—a concern which is shared by all hon. Members.
Mr. Molloy: Will my right hon. Friend give the House an opportunity to have an early debate on the Select Committee's report on the Central Policy Review Staff's review of overseas representation, particularly in the light of the extraordinary biased report on this topic on the BBC one o'clock news? The BBC, in common with the Foreign Office and Diplomatic Corps, thinks that any criticism of these organisations is a form of lèse majesté. Although there was heavy condemnation of the report by members of the Select Committee, that does not necessarily mean that this House agrees with every word of the Select Committee's report. So, in fairness to everybody concerned, will my right hon. Friend consider whether he will give the House a chance to debate the subject?
Mr. Foot: I cannot promise an immediate debate. My hon. Friend knows my great enthusiasm for Select Committee reports, and it looks to me at a first glance as though this report may be an improvement on some that have gone
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before. However, I do not want to press that point too far. I cannot promise an early debate, but I shall certainly examine the point mentioned by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Powell: Is the Lord President aware of the disappointment not only of my hon. Friends and myself but of those whom we represent that the Government have not been able to realise their expectations of proceeding earlier on the results of a conference over which you, Mr. Speaker, presided? In a Session in which the House has spent so much time on measures in which the tendency is to destroy the United Kingdom, would it not be a good idea to find the little time necessary for a measure that will strengthen it?
Mr. Foot: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in recognising the importance of the subject and the desire of the House to have a statement. I have already said that I hope that the statement will be given next week. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will also reflect on the fact that, after all the speeches he has made on constitutional subjects during this Session of Parliament, he is now recommending that we should add a further constitutional measure to the discussions this Session.
Mr. Heffer: Does my right hon. Friend recall that before the recess many of my hon. Friends from Merseyside called for a special debate in the House on the subject of Merseyside in particular? Is he aware that since then there have been further closures in the area, with a further increase in unemployment? Bearing in mind that many of us sought to raise the matter before the recess, will he now give an assurance that we shall have a special and proper debate in this House on the problems in the area so that we may know what the Government intend to do to help?
Mr. Foot: I fully recognise what my hon. Friend says about the seriousness of the situation on Merseyside. Nobody could minimise the importance of the subject. It is also true, as he has said, that some aspects of the matter were raised before Easter, but I agree that that does not exclude the desirability of another debate on the subject as soon as we can approach it. I cannot give my hon. Friend an immediate promise but

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I recognise that this is one of the subjects that the House wishes to debate.
Mr. du Cann: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm the assurances that he has been good enough to give me in correspondence—for which I thank him—on the matter in regard to which the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Hughes) and I, on behalf of a very great number of hon. Members, have consistently expressed anxiety to him, namely, that there should be no avoidable delay in the introduction of legislation to implement the Boyle recommendations in regard to hon. Members' pensions?
Mr. Foot: I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman says. He and my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Hughes) have made representations. Indeed, hon. Members from all parts of the House have also made representations on this subject. I hope that when the legislation is brought forward, it will command general assent [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] It will be brought forward fairly soon. The legislation is quite complicated, but the issues are not complicated. We shall be seeking to carry out the Boyle recommendations in this respect. I cannot give a date, but I hope that the measure will be produced fairly soon.
Mr. Hoyle: Will my right hon. Friend consider providing an early debate on unemployment in the consumer electronics industry, particularly in the light of an Early-Day Motion signed by 69 hon. Members drawing attention not only to redundancies at Thorn, but to the critical situation facing the industry generally?
[That this House deplores the 2,200 redundancies caused by the closure of the Thorn television factories in Bradford and the grave crisis in the British consumer electronic industry caused by foreign imports, particularly Japanese, and a depressed home market and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to take urgent action to restrict foreign imports and to reflate the economy in order to prevent further factory closures in this important sector of industry.]
Mr. Foot: I fully accept that there is a very serious situation facing the industry and that hon. Members from many parts of the country have representations
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to make. I am sure that they are making them to the Departments concerned. But we shall have to consider the situation when we have a little more time later in the Session for these more general debates. However, the representations do not have to await the debate.
Mr. Beith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to the difficulties faced by hon. Members who wish to pursue amendments in the Committee considering the Co-operative Development Agency Bill and to discuss them with outside organisations? The Bill had its Second Reading only last Thursday and there are all the attendant difficulties with parliamentary papers. Hon. Members who have been appointed to sit on the Committee were informed of that fact only today, yet they face having to start in Committee next Tuesday.
Mr. Foot: I am sorry if we are moving too fast for the House. We have to take these matters into account. I shall look at the points raised by the hon. Gentleman. Of course, there will be a Report stage for the Bill and we can look at these matters then. I had hoped, from the reception given to the Bill in the House, that we were proceeding in the way that the whole House wished.
Mr. Urwin: Will my right hon. Friend take note of the declining employment situation in the Northern Region and seriously consider allocating a day in the near future, if not next week, for a full debate on regional policy? Will he bear in mind the disadvantages of the English regions in these matters? Scotland and Wales have special days on which to discuss their problems. Many of us, who are constantly concerned and are receiving deputations from the region about unemployment, would welcome the opportunity to participate in a debate on general regional policy.
Mr. Foot: I certainly take note of what my hon. Friend has said, and I shall take it into account, along with the representations of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) to see how we can best approach parliamentary discussion of these questions.
Sir David Renton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since Rhodesia was discussed in the House before Easter,

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there have been many further important and serious developments and that there is a growing anxiety in this country at the Government's failure to make the best use of the internal settlement? Will he therefore reconsider the matter and provide a debate in Government time at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Foot: As I said earlier, I cannot promise an early debate on Rhodesia. I understand the representations that are being made, although the Government's attitude towards the internal settlement has been indicated to the House and comments have been made upon it. I shall take account of the representations made in the House, but I cannot make any promises here and now.
Mr. Russell Kerr: In view of my right hon. Friend's kind and generous references to the work of Select Committees, will he be good enough to let us have an early debate on the most recent report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, dealing with the British Waterways Board?
Mr. Foot: I cannot give my hon. Friend an immediate promise of a debate on that subject, sympathetic as I always am to his requests.
Sir T. Kitson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many Service men are faced with difficult financial problems? When may we expect a statement on Service pay?
Mr. Foot: I cannot give a date, but of course I recognise the importance of the subject.
Mr. Spearing: Does my right hon. Friend recall that just after Christmas he gave an undertaking that he would arrange for a debate in Committee on the milk order which removes the guaranteed price for milk? Is he aware that the Milk Marketing Board is under threat and that these matters are to be discussed in Brussels later this month? Would it not be appropriate if such a debate could be arranged and held before the next Council of Agricultural Ministers?
Mr. Foot: I shall look at my hon. Friend's request. As he knows, we do everything we can, partly because of his representations, to ensure that the House has debates before substantive discussions on these matters take place in
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Brussels. I shall look at this case in the light of my hon. Friend's fresh representations.
Mr. Brooke: May I reinforce what was said by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) concerning the Select Committee on the CPRS report? It is eight months since the report was issued and it inevitably occasioned considerable uncertainty among the 4,000 employees of the British Council, many of whom work in my constituency. As a relief to that uncertainty, it would be a great help to have an early debate.
Mr. Foot: I am not sure whether a debate is the proper way to deal with this matter, but I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about those who work for the British Council. Their position has been criticised and they have every right to expect a statement from the Government. We shall see how soon it can be managed.
Mr. James Lamond: Is my right hon. Friend bearing in mind that the date of the special session of the United Nations on disarmament is drawing ever closer? Since it is important enough to be attended by the Prime Minister and since the question of the neutron bomb is closely linked with this meeting, would it not be a good idea for us to debate the matter before the Prime Minister sets off for New York?
Mr. Foot: I shall look at that possibility, without giving any promises. The Government, through the Prime Minister, will be making a statement of major importance to the United Nations at the June meeting, and the House and the country will wish to have some discussion of the matter as we approach that date.
Sir Frederic Bennett: The right hon. Gentleman has three times referred to the fact that we had an Adjournment debate on Rhodesia before Easter as a reason for not having such a debate with expedition at present. Is he being fair about this? He knows that, apart from the fact that many developments have taken place since then, that debate gave no opportunity for a vote and it is the right of the House to express or deny confidence in the Government in their handling of this matter.
Mr. Foot: If it is a question of the Opposition wanting a vote on the matter, there are facilities open to them to try

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to secure that, though I have not heard any hint that this is what they want. In my references to the debate which took place on the Consolidated Fund Bill I was not seeking to depreciate it. Such debates are very important and are arranged so that hon. Members, including the Opposition Front Bench, may select subjects according to their sense of what is important. That is what happened on that occasion and the importance of that debate should not be depreciated.
Mr. Hooley: Can my right hon. Friend say when the Prayer against the special development order for Windscale will be debated and how much time the House will be allowed for that debate?
Mr. Foot: I cannot yet give a date, but I certainly recognise the interest in the House both on the date and on the time that will be allowed for that debate. I have nothing further to say on this matter at the moment.
Mr. Carlisle: I have just returned from Rhodesia, and I support the request made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and others for a debate. Things are happening very quickly in Rhodesia. The situation has changed even within the past three weeks. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is important that the House should have an opportunity to express an opinion?
Mr. Foot: I fully understand the desire of the House to have a debate on the subject, as has been expressed in questions put by the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition. However, the Opposition also have the chance to choose subjects. It is not the case that all these debates must be selected by the Government. They can also be selected by the Opposition.
Mr. Loyden: I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to unemployment in the regions. Is he aware that the Government have given a lead in so far as they have cut back on capacity, thereby creating unemployment in areas of already high unemployment? We should not merely discuss unemployment in the regions. We should discuss Government policies to tackle unemployment and to assist industry in the regions.
Mr. Foot: I shall take into account what my hon. Friend says. However, his
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comments illustrate the difficulty of securing debates on the subject that satisfy hon. Members in all parts of the House. I do not dismiss what he says.
Mr. Luce: Will the Leader of the House acknowledge the strong weight of opinion in the House on the need for a full-scale debate on Rhodesia in Government time? Does he accept that a short debate on the Consolidated Fund is no substitute for a full-ranging debate in Government time to discuss what are extremely significant developments in Rhodesia?
Mr. Foot: I am not saying that the debate that took place on the Consolidated Fund is a substitute necessarily for all subsequent debates on the matter. All that I was saying in response to Opposition hon. Members was that I do not believe that the debate that took place on the Consolidated Fund should be dismissed as one of no importance. That is quite the wrong approach. Time allocated by the organisation of Commons business provided for that debate. The Government may have a view whether we should have a debate on Rhodesia and whether that is immediately desirable, as the Opposition may have their views. The Opposition have the right to raise and press these matters.
Mr. Faulds: Doubtless my right hon. Friend knows that Ham House was given to the National Trust by the Tollemache family in 1948. However, is he aware that the stables, which remained in private hands, have now come on the marget and that if the Government do not purchase them, they will be privately developed and lost permanently as part of the complex of a marvellous seventeenth century building?
Mr. Foot: That was not immediately on my mind, but now that my hon. Friend has raised it I shall think of little else.
Mr. Forman: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I, as one of those who were lucky enough to be called to speak in the debate on Rhodesia on the Consolidated Fund before Easter and who, therefore, have no chance of being called in any debate on the subject in the near future, wish to support my right hon. and hon. Friends in calling for an early debate in Government time on this important and fast-moving issue?
Mr. Foot: I have nothing to add to what I have already said.
Mr. Flannery: In view of the lack of clarity about the internal settlement in Rhodesia that exists on the Opposition Benches, I ask my right hon. Friend whether we may have a debate on Rhodesia, whether it comes from arrangements made by the Government or from arrangements by the Opposition, so that we may explain to Opposition Members just how undemocratic the internal settlement is.
Mr. Foot: I fully accept that there is a desire in many parts of the House for a debate on the subject. All that I was saying—I hope that it was not provocative—is that the Opposition, as well as the Government, have the power to select debates. That is the way in which we organise our debates in the House, and I think that it is a good way of arranging them.
Mr. Pym: Although the House is grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman said in reply to a question from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about parliamentary papers, does he think that there is a risk of the House of Commons beginning to treat altogether too lightly the absence of papers and the continuing inconvenience to a great many people? What is the prospect of an early reinstitution of the provision of parliamentary papers? What consideration is he giving to possible alternatives and new methods that could be introduced for producing parliamentary papers in a way that will not bring about recurring interruption from time to time in the supply of these papers? The interruptions are becoming far too frequent. This is an immensely serious matter. It is an affront to the House, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be more forthcoming in his response to questions about the thinking that he is giving to the matter as regards a long-term solution as well as the short-term problem.
Mr. Foot: Nothing that I have said on the subject, either in my statement today or on any previous occasion, has ever minimised its importance. I regard it as being a matter of primary importance for the House. We should not have this sort of interruption in the supply of papers for the conduct of our business.
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It is not merely a matter of the convenience of the House but one concerned with the proper conduct of our affairs in the House. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in that sense, and I do not believe that he can find any reference that I have ever made to suggest that this is a matter that I seek to dismiss.
I cannot promise the House—I wish that I could—that we are in the presence of a likely settlement in the near future. In the beginning of the week I hoped that that is where we were moving, but we have not moved there as I had hoped. I have said that the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which has considerable experience in these matters, is taking action today to ascertain whether it can assist. I wish to do everything possible to encourage that move.
In common with the rest of the House I want to see a permanent solution to the problem. I am not quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman's recommendations about how we should secure a permanent settlement are wise, but I shall take into account any suggestion from any quarter for solving the issue. As much as anybody else in the House, I want to solve it.
Mr. Pym: I fully accept that the right hon. Gentleman shares everyone's concern about the non-production of papers. As he said that a settlement does not seem particularly likely in the near future and he does not want to raise our hopes about a settlement, I press him to consider the desirability of introducing completely different, alternative arrangements for the future so that we shall not continue to be subjected intermittently to the interruption of the supply of papers that we now experience, which is so damaging to the House and the nation.
Mr. Foot: I said that I did not think that that was necessarily the best approach. Nothing that I am saying is depreciating the importance of the matter. I want to secure an early settlement of the dispute and a situation in which we can solve disputes of the kind that have led to these constant interruptions. Before the dispute occurred there was undertaken a longer-term investigation by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. I believe that it is that longer-term investigation that offers us the best opportunity of a proper settlement. I do

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not want to injure that possibility by adopting some quite different approach.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have a long list of right hon. and hon. Members who wish to speak in the major debate that is to take place later. I shall let business questions run until five minutes past four. That means that if hon. Members are brief I shall be able to call all those who wish to take part in business questions, but if they are not, I shall not be able to do so.
Mr. Tebbit: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he said that one of his primary responsibilities is to ensure the supply of papers to the House? Does he agree that he is failing in one of his primary responsibilities? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]. Of course, the work could be done by a girl with a typesetting machine. Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he intends to do if the dispute is not solved by the time that the Budget Resolutions are to be discussed in Committee, when others outside the House must have the papers?
Mr. Foot: I have nothing to add to what I said in reply to the right hon Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym).
Mr. Welsh: As there is no separate identifiable oil revenue fund, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for a debate on the use to which the fund will be put so that the Scottish people may judge for themselves the extent to which this national asset will be hived off from Scotland for use elsewhere?
Mr. Foot: That matter is being constantly debated in the House, including debates now proceeding on the Budget.
Mr. Montgomery: As the Leader of the House is supposed to look after the interests of the House, and as it has been made abundantly clear that many hon. Members are anxious to have a debate on Rhodesia, will he explain why the Government are not prepared to give time to debate the internal settlement?
Secondly, will he tell us when we are likely to have a debate on the report of the Select Committee on Immigration and Race Relations? When that subject is discussed, may we have a two-day debate
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so that all hon. Members who want to speak will get a chance to speak?
Mr. Foot: On the second question, again, if I were to be so bold as to suggest that the question of immigration might be raised by the Opposition, no doubt there would be wild protests that that was not possible.
I remind the House that the arrangement of the business of the House of Commons is such that large allocations of time are available both to Back Benchers and to the official Opposition. I think that it is absolutely right to protect that in every degree, but the Opposition have the right to choose how they use their time.
Mr. Rost: When are we to debate the White Paper outlining the Government's plans to squander the British people's North Sea oil bonus? Is the Leader of the House aware that, if we do not do it soon, there will not be much left, because the British National Oil Corporation will have squandered it all?
Mr. Foot: As no White Paper advocating any such proposal has been produced, there is no reason why we should offer time to debate it.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: The Leader of the House will be aware that he has had a lot of pressure from hon. Members on both sides of the House arising from the high unemployment in the North-West and other parts of the country. May I suggest that he proposes to the House that, instead of celebrating May Day by having a holiday, the House should celebrate it by having a debate on unemployment?
Mr. Foot: I think that it is very good that, for the first time in its history, this country is to have a proper holiday on 1st May. That proposal was put forward when I was at the Department of Employment. I am glad that it has been carried fully into effect. I hope that all will enjoy themselves on that day. I am sure that the House of Commons will return on 2nd May even better equipped to transact its business.
Mr. Rifkind: Does the Lord President realise that when his hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) joins the Conservative Front Bench in calling for a debate on

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Rhodesia in Government time, he is on a hiding to nothing? Does he appreciate that both sides of the House want an early debate on that matter and that for him to go on ad nauseam saying that he understands the feelings of the House but refusing to respond to them is a national disgrace?
Mr. Whitelaw: Well done.
Mr. Foot: "Well done" says the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw). I am glad that he has recovered his voice at last. As for saying that it is a national disgrace that I have not provided Government time to debate a matter about which the Opposition asked only last week, such an absurdity cannot possibly be sustained. If the Opposition thought that it was such a national disgrace that we have not yet had a debate on Rhodesia, they could choose to have it next Thursday. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I have the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) on my side. I am sorry. I see it was not the hon. Member for Canterbury. At any rate, I have two Opposition Members on my side. The Government will consider the representations that have been made to them and I hope that the official Opposition will consider the representations that I have made to them.
Mr. MacKay: Is the Lord President aware that for many weeks, especially before the Easter Recess, we have been asking for a debate on Rhodesia? Secondly, is he aware that both inside and outside the House there will be astonishment, at this crucial time for Rhodesia, that the Government are acting irresponsibly by not giving us a debate on this very important subject?
Mr. Foot: I repudiate any suggestion that the Government are not acting responsibly in the matter. The hon. Gentleman said that many hon. Members were asking for a debate before Easter. They had a debate before Easter. He must take that into account as well. I know that the Opposition Chief Whip is always eager that all debates should take place in Government time. He has a vested interest in the matter. All I am saying is that the House of Commons has made arrangements whereby hon. Members in different parts of the House may select
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debates. I want to preserve that great tradition.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: I endorse the feeling on both sides of the House for an early debate on Rhodesia, which by now should be the beneficiary of aid rather than the victim of sanctions. In that context, may I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the alarming disclosure in a recent Written Answer that public funds are now or have recently been going to Cambodia, South Yemen and Uganda? In that context, many of us would like an opportunity of debating the whole question of overseas aid.
Mr. Foot: Questions on overseas aid are open for discussion in a debate by the normal methods, too. Without accepting any of the suggestions made by the hon. Gentlemen, I should point out that he has the opportunity to put down Questions or to institute debates on the matter.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton Mr. Nicholas Winterton rose—
Mr. Stanbrook Mr. Stanbrook rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall call the two hon. Gentlemen.
Mr. Winterton: Will the Lord President answer three simple questions? Does he agree that Rhodesia, although an independent de facto Government and country in its own right for 12 years, is still a British Government responsibility; that the Labour Party is at present in charge of the affairs of this country; and that he I presume as the custodian of the wishes and the interests of the House, has a duty to enable the House to vote on the internal settlement at a very early date?
Mr. Foot: Of course this House and country have special responsibilities for Rhodesia. I do not deny that. The Government have special responsibilities for it, too. If the third question is that the House, or the Opposition, is asking for a vote on the so-called internal settlement in Rhodesia, that is a very different matter. I do not know whether it is wise for the House to vote on such a matter. But if the official Opposition thought it wise that we should have a vote on that matter, no doubt they would make representations on the subject. No such suggestion has been made by them.
Mr. Stanbrook: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the source of the

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trouble at the parliamentary printers is the dissatisfaction felt by the members of the machine room at the prospect of their earnings declining because of a new overtime schedule? Is it not monstrous that the business of the House should be disrupted because of a comparatively minor industrial dispute, however important it may be to the individuals concerned? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore answer my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) and propose an entirely new system which will take this important essential business of the House completely away from the area in which it now is?
Mr. Foot: As I said in my reply to the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, I think that the long-term investigation being made by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service is the best way of securing a long-term solution. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion would assist that purpose.
Mr. Rost: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For the sake of accuracy, will you give the Leader of the House an opportunity to correct the inaccurate answer that he gave to me regarding the White Paper published by the Government just before Easter on North Sea oil revenues, which he said apparently did not exist?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not listen to everything.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [11th April].
  WAYS AND MEANS

    AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
    That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but this Resolution does not extend to—

    (a) the making of any amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide—

    (i) for zero-rating or exempting any supply;

    (ii) for refunding any amount of tax otherwise than by virtue of a provision relating to bad debts;

    (iii) for reducing the rate at which tax is for the time being chargeable on any supply or importation otherwise than by reducing that rate in relation to all supplies and importations on which tax is for the time being chargeable at that rate; or

    (iv) for any relief other than relief applicable to goods of whatever description or services of whatever description; or

    (b) the making of any amendment relating to the surcharge imposed by the National Insurance Surcharge Act 1976 and applying to some only of the persons by or in respect of whom the surcharge is payable; or

    (c) the making except in relation to farm ing or market gardening, of any provision for affording relief from tax by the adjustment of fluctuating income.—[Mr. Healey.]

    [Relevant European Economic Community Documents: R/1721/77, R/2080/77, R/2473/77, COM (77) 640, the Economic Situation Annual Report, R/654/78 and R/655/78 on the economic situation in the Community and economic policy guidelines.]
    Question again proposed.

  BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  4.8 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennals): My right hon. Friend the Chancellor outlined in his Budget Statement a package of measures which have been welcomed across the country as right for the economy and fair to all sections of the community.
  Her Majesty's Opposition have been typically grudging in their reactions. I watched the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), the

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  Shadow Chancellor, in his broadcast last night. An accomplished performance I thought—peppered with carefully chosen quotatioins: good for a laugh at the Chancellor's expense, but empty, utterly empty, of content.
  I agree that one message came through loud and clear. The hon. and learned Gentleman would cut more taxes and hold down public expenditure. He alleged that public expenditure was out of control. What nonsense. Public expenditure continues to be under tight control. But I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman who succeeded me as Member of Parliament for Dover will tell us just which parts of the public expenditure part of the package his right hon. Friend would have dropped. I know one for a start—the Government's decision to restore free milk to children up to the age of 11, snatched from them by the present Leader of the Opposition when she was Secretary of State for Education and Science. I suppose that out of loyalty to the unrepentant milk snatcher they would certainly have to oppose that.
  I gather that the Conservative Party would go ahead with the school meal increases in September. What about job creation, rural industries, law and order, coastal protection and flood compensation? What about new capital for education? What about the extra £50 million for the National Health Service, the pensioners' increase and the new level of child benefit? I hope that when the hon. Gentleman speaks he will spell out the Tory approach to these issues.
  This is a Budget to give new hope and encouragement to our people. The whole country has had to exercise great restraint over a very difficult period. Working people of all kinds have shown a remarkable degree of self-discipline. Wages and salaries have been held down with the co-operation of unions, employers and workers. Public services have had to be held back as we have struggled against a major world recession. The Government have had to take tough measures and they have been accepted by the people.
  Now that the success of our policies is there for all to see, it is right that the whole community should share in the fruits of that success. That is why the Budget Statement contained what I think most would agree was a balanced set of proposals. The proposals were balanced
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  between tax cuts and increases in spending; balanced between working people and those who are elderly, sick or disabled or unemployed through no fault of their own; balanced between those with children to support and those without; balanced between those who are managers or professional people and, on the other hand, those who work on the shop floor; balanced, in a word, between take-home pay and the social wage.
  After a long period of restraint and recession, people are entitled to look for some light at the end of the tunnel. They saw a glimmer of it in October in the measures then introduced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. This Budget package is the reflationary engine which will help to pull us through the tunnel. It is part of a wider international effort to lift the world economy out of the recession.
  The total size of the package has been well judged by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to provide the necessary stimulus while keeping inflation firmly under control. In his statement to the House, the Chancellor dealt with the broad economic effects of the package and the details of his tax concessions. I intend to concentrate today on the public expenditure element and particularly the social importance of the measures outlined by my right hon. Friend.
  I recognise that many Conservative Members would have been much happier if there had been virtually no increases in public spending. They insist on regarding public spending as some form of sin, and, being against sin, they are opposed to it. I think that the Government take a balanced view on these matters. Public spending, whether on goods and services or on transfer payments such as pensions, must be kept within what the country can afford. However, for us the social wage is just as important as the weekly pay packet. It reflects the social priorities of the whole of our Labour movement. That is why we have decided on a major £50 million injection of funds for the National Health Service. I shall come back to that later in greater detail.
  That is why we have announced a further big increase in pensions, taking them to a record real value. That is why we are boosting child benefit to £4 a week next April, with an advance instalment

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  this November, when the rate goes up to £3. These are the main elements in the package which come within my own field of responsibility.
  Taking all the benefits covered in this week's announcement, at least 15 million people will have their income increased by Government decision. Working families will receive a straight cash boost to the family budget from this November's increase in child benefit to £3 a week per child and a further rise next April to £4. Child benefit increased to £2·30 only last week, at a cost of £300 million a year. The new rates announced in the Budget will add an additional £165 million to this in this financial year and over £500 million in the next and later financial years. These are large sums of money. They will mean that for the large majority of families child support will reach record levels in real terms. These large sums of money will give the lie to any claim by Conservative Members that families have done worst under a Labour Government.
  What do the figures mean to an individual family? From November a typical mother with two children will draw £6 a week from the Post Office compared with £4·60 now and £2·50 a couple of weeks ago. Next April she will draw £8 a week. About 250,000 one-parent families will do even better. The £1 premium for their first child doubles in November to £2, so a single parent with two children who now draws £5·60 a week child benefit will receive £8 in November and £10 next April.
  The November increase in child benefit to £3 a week is a straight cash gain of 70p per child. There is no loss of tax allowance. There is no switch from the father's wallet to the mother's purse. For an average family with two children the extra 70p per child, together with the £80 increase in the married man's personal allowance and the 25 per cent. band of taxable income, will result in a gain of £3·22.
  Mrs. Helene Hayman: Before my right hon. Friend leaves the point of the supplement for one-parent families, on the doubling of which I congratulate him, will he look with some sympathy at the case of the one-parent family with one child depen-
  1684
  dent on supplementary benefit for whom the scale rate for the child will be less than the child benefit and for whom it would be a tragedy if the family were to lose the real advantage in child benefit?
  Mr. Ennals: I understand the point put by my hon. Friend and I shall look at it with some sympathy. The rise from £3 to £4 next April will mean a real net gain of 35p a week. That is the figure for basic rate taxpayers. When one adds in the 70p from November, the overall gain is £1·05. The gains will also be rather smaller for those on rent allowances, rent rebates or rate rebates because any increase in child benefit will be taken into account next April in assessing the family's income and the help that they can get from these housing benefits.
  However, taking November and April together, all families will make a net gain, even after allowing for any reduction in housing benefits.
  Mr. Ralph Howell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an estimate of the number of people who he thinks are caught in the poverty trap now and the number of people who will be freed from the poverty trap as a result of this Budget?
  Mr. Ennals: I cannot give a precise figure, but I am certain that it will be recognised by the House that the tax measures taken by my right hon. Friend, particularly the raising of a significant number of people, 340,000, out of taxation altogether, and the effect upon roughly another 4 million people who will come within the band will have a significant effect on the poverty trap. If we take that together with the increase in child benefits, its effect not only on the poverty trap but on the problem of whether people are better off at work or receiving benefit will be dramatic.
  Mr. Ralph Howell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Ennals: I shall not give way. I am certain that the hon. Gentleman will be able to catch Mr. Deputy Speaker's eye during the course of the debate. The child benefit has many advantages over the previous system, as hon. Members on all sides recognise. It gives a cash help to the first child in the family, unlike the old family allowance. It is fair to the

  1685
  poorest in work, who receive little or no help from child tax allowances. It is tax-free and it is paid direct to mothers. So, taken together with the Chancellor's tax proposals, there are now greatly increased incentives to work.
  Many hon. Members are concerned with that small number of people who may be better off unemployed. This can occur if a man is on low wages and has several children, because the benefits that he receives for his children when he is out of work are greater than when he is in work. As a result of the Budget measures, 360,000 people who would otherwise have been paying tax will not now do so. The new lower rate of 25 per cent. on the first £750 of taxable income will greatly help in terms of incentive as well as in terms of the poverty trap.
  Mr. David Stoddart: I am listening carefully to what my right hon. Friend is saying and am thinking about it in relation to child benefit and rent and rate rebates. Frankly, I am amazed that it appears, from what he is saying, that the tenant, as opposed to the owner-occupier—the poor as opposed to the better off—will do worse. Will my right hon. Friend consider that?
  Mr. Ennals: That is not so. There will, of course, be an adjustment in means-tested benefits which will take into account the changes announced by the Chancellor and the changes in the levels of child benefit. I said yesterday that rent and rate rebates and housing allowances would be looked at by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. The House will agree that we have taken major strides forward in child benefit, bearing in mind the £4 rate from next April.
  We are determined that families with children, who have borne their share of the economic burdens of these past years, should have a full share in improved living standards. That is why we have decided to bring forward to the earliest possible moment a large part of the increase in child benefits. We have recognised the strength of the case made by our friends in the Labour movement—in the TUC, the Labour Party and on the Benches behind me.
  Looked at in the round, the Budget is very much a Budget for the family.
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  There has been the improvement in child benefit, the cancellation of the rise in school meal prices, the return of free school milk for the 7-to-11 group and major tax concessions. Frank Field, director of the Child Poverty Action Group, normally a pretty sharp critic of the family support policies of successive Governments, hailed the measures as a "Budget for children". The Budget was, he said,
  "the biggest increase in child benefit so far and family men would respond this autumn in their wage negotiations."
  I believe that they will. Mr. Field went on:
  "This signals the beginning of a proper child benefit scheme. Tax-free child benefits with the new reduced rate of income tax is the first big step in freeing families from the poverty trap."
  There is another important group which will gain a great deal from the package—the pensioners. The ordinary family man has had to carry his share of the burden of economic recovery. I am glad to say that that is not true of the pensioners. We came into office pledged to raise the living standards of our pensioners and we have kept this pledge. We raised pensions by £10 for a single person and £16 for a married couple as soon as we took office. These pensions have gone up four times since then and at the last uprating, in November 1977, pensioners were about 16 per cent. better off in real terms than they had been under the previous Tory Government.
  We have raised the real standard of living of pensioners in spite of a world recession and all the economic difficulties. We have protected the elderly—more than protected them—from the effects of inflation. The oil price rises and the recession forced real cuts in the living standard of working people, from which the pensioners have been exempted. I believe that working people have understood this and accepted it during these last two difficult years.
  Now that living standards are rising again, it is right that the pensioners should share in that improvement. I believe that the majority of working people would agree. The single person's pension which stood at £7·75 a week when we took office in 1974 is now £17·50 and in November it will go up by £2. The married couple's pension will reach £31·20. Pensioners will be about 20

  1687
  per cent. better off in real terms than they were at the last Tory uprating in 1973.
  Sir John Langford-Holt: Never forget inflation.
  Mr. Ennals: The hon. Member must not seek to delude himself, let alone those he represents. The increase in pensions amounts to 11½ per cent. at present rates and, with the rate of inflation declining to 7 per cent. by November on a year-by-year basis, it will mean that there will be a real increase of more than 4 per cent. in the living standards of pensioners.
  There are other benefits for pensioners in the Budget. The earnings limit goes up from £40 a week to £45. The income tax age allowance is going up by rather more than personal tax allowances generally—£50 for a single person and £100 for a married couple. The age allowance income limit goes up to £4,000. There is a whole package of measures that will help the elderly.
  If Tory Members can bear the embarrassment, I must mention their own graduated pension scheme which came into operation in 1961 and ran until 1975, when we wound it up. We always refer to it as the "Tory pension swindle". Throughout the whole of this period that is exactly what it was. When the facts are known, I do not believe that people will be able to doubt it. Working people contributed to the scheme for years without one iota of protection from inflation. If I have it wrong, Tory Members can challenge me.
  The pension rights of people were whittled away during those years. After 14 years the average payment, on the graduated pension scheme, for pensioners today is a miserable 34p per head. That was the great success of the new pension scheme produced by the Tories. The contrast with our own inflation-proofed new pension scheme, which came into operation last week, is all too stark.
  I am glad that right hon. and hon. Members on the Tory Benches have now seen the error of their ways and give full support to our new pension scheme. Under this new scheme, pensions earned even under the old graduated scheme will, from now on, be protected against inflation. Whether that will make an honest
  1688
  woman of that swindle I cannot say. We have done our best.
  Mr. Robert Boscawen: The right hon. Gentleman has been referring to the new pensions scheme from which a large number of people have contracted out. The number is larger than was earlier expected. What will be the level of the contributions next year, taking into account the higher rate of contracting out and these massive transfer payments to pensioners which will take place next autumn?
  Mr. Ennals: In the autumn I shall review the level of contributions which will come into operation in April and I shall make an announcement to the House. The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. It looks as though the number of people who will be contracted out of the State scheme will be between 8 million and 9 million, which is what we had estimated. We forecast 9 million and I do not think that we shall be far wrong.
  I will not repeat all the details I gave to the House yesterday concerning the various social security benefits. Suffice it to say that widows, invalidity pensioners and war pensioners will have increases comparable with those for retirement pensioners. Those on short-term benefits—for sickness and unemployment—will once again be protected against inflation. Supplementary benefit rates, long-term and normal, will rise in the usual way.
  The whole package of increases, child benefit, pensions and the rest, will mean an increase in spending on benefits in this financial year of about £670 million and upwards of £1¾ billion in 1979–80. These increases in benefits are by no means the only social improvements which the Government have decided to bring about. The Chancellor also announced a number of other measures, including extra funds for a higher rate of capital spending on schools, more money for retraining of teachers, another £20 million for environmental improvements such as preserving the coastline, and higher spending on law and order and so on.
  But the proposal which will have received the strongest and most widespread welcome is the injection of an extra £50 million in the National Health Service in this financial year. There has been a lot of wild talk recently about the

  1689
  NHS being in danger of collapse through lack of funds. The fact is that current spending in real terms has gone up every year under this Government. On the latest figures, the health services' share of gross domestic product is up to 5·8 per cent. compared with 4·7 per cent. in 1973.
  But the Government are well aware of the strains on the Health Service. I am glad that there will be a debate on it on Thursday. At a time of economic difficulty we have not been able to raise spending as fast as we would like. The faster the growth rate, the faster we can bring the level of spending in the poorer parts of the country up to the levels in the better-off regions and the more room there is to shift resources into the priority tasks—improving the care of children, the elderly, the mentally ill and the mentally and physically handicapped, who have for so long been neglected.
  But there are other problems, too. Modern new hospitals which were in course of planning and construction for many years are opening in such places as Nottingham, Sheffield, Rotherham, Liverpool, Oxford and Ealing, replacing older, out-dated facilities. These are coming on stream just at the time when funds are tight, and there is a danger that some might not be fully opened. Waiting lists and waiting times are far too long. There are not enough kidney machines to meet the need. Staffing levels and facilities, particularly in our mental illness and handicap hospitals, need improving.
  In order to tackle these problems and speed up our progress in getting a fairer share of funds for the poorer areas and the Cinderella services, we are pumping an extra £50 million at 1977 survey prices into the service in 1978–79. England's share of this will be £41·3 million and I shall allocate this to regional health authorities in a way which ensures that the least-well-provided regions get the most help We shall for 1978–79 be able to provide a growth rate for the more deprived regions—the Northern, the North-West and Trent—of about 4 per cent. That is about 1 per cent more than expected. I shall be able to some extent to relieve the pressure on the Thames regions and Oxford, which have had very small growth rates. I am sure that the policy of reallocation is right, and I shall stick to it. As a result of these extra resources, planned growth in expenditure
  1690
  on hospital and community health services in 1978–79 has increased from 2·1 per cent to 3·2 per cent.—a 50 per cent. increase in our growth rate.
  I am also determined to ensure that the extra money is put to good use in accordance with our priorities. I shall be issuing guidance to health authorities to help them in this task.
  So where will the money go? In national terms I have decided that it should be spent broadly along the following lines in this financial year. About £3 million will be needed to ensure that new hopsitals are fully comissioned as soon as possible in the year. To help tackle waiting lists there will be about £2 million extra capital for day surgery facilities and operating theatres.
  Over the country as a whole about 400 new kidney machines will be bought and brought into use at a cost of about £3¾ million. But I do not need to remind those who suffer from kidney disease that, as well as buying the machines, we have to train patients and relatives to use them, and this takes time.
  Sir George Young: In view of his most welcome assistance to kidney patients, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he will be blocking the Bill which comes before the House tomorrow, which will extend the attendance allowance to those kidney patients who have to dialyse?
  Mr. Ennals: That is not a matter for me. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall not be blocking the Bill tomorrow. That is a question that he might well have put to the Leader of the House earlier today. I have a great deal of sympathy with the concern that he has in mind in bringing forward his legislation.
  Mrs. Lynda Chalker: I apologise for coming back to this point, but would the right hon. Gentleman please make representations to his colleagues? A large number of very worried home dialysis kidney patients have heard that it is the Government's intention to prevent the Social Security (Kidney Patients) (No. 2) Bill from going through the House.
  Mr. Ennals: The hon. Lady will know that an appeal is being heard which covers precisely the issue with which that Bill

  1691
  deals. I think that we must wait to see what happens. It would be most unfortunate if she or any other hon. Member were to seek to exploit in a party political sense the concern which we all feel for kidney patients. I hope that none of them will do that. I sense that the House has welcomed the additional money which will be made available for home dialysis, which is what it will mean.
  About a third of the extra money can be devoted to improving staffing levels and urgent maintenance work in mental and geriatric hospitals. Another £8 million or £9 million will be available in the acute sector for new equipment and urgent maintenance work. An extra £2 million will be allocated for projects financed jointly by health authorities and local councils. That will therefore help the personal social services.
  The remainder of the additional money will be devoted to such things as capital projects in inner cities—for example, on-the-spot accommodation for health visitors, special care units for new-born babies, and health education.
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: When my right hon. Friend is talking about the extra money which will be made available, particularly for mental health, may I ask whether he has looked at the case of the severely handicapped child leaving the unit at 16 with no other suitable unit to go to? There is a severe gap there, which urgently needs filling. Is that a point that he is considering?
  Mr. Ennals: There is an increase at present in the number of special care units which deal with that sort of case. The whole principle at stake here is being considered by the Warnock committee. I am looking forward to the recommendations it makes to me and to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
  Over £40 million spent on the National Health Service in England in these ways will mean over 9,000 new jobs—socially useful jobs in which working people are providing a vital public service. More than half of the 9,000 jobs will be for nurses.
  Of course, this extra money cannot solve all the problems of the National Health Service, but it will do a great
  1692
  deal to ease the many pressures. The uses to which this extra money will be put will clearly continue in future years. The Government will take this into account when we review public expenditure programmes during the course of this year. The additional £50 million is a tangible sign of the very real commitment of this Government to our National Health Service—one of the proudest creations of the Labour movement and greatly valued by all the people of Britain.
  The welcome will do something to allay some of the problems of morale which exist in the National Health Service, where people have been concerned about the inadequacy of resources. Within the service this will be as warmly welcomed as it will in the country.
  When the Budget proposals are looked at as a whole there is no doubt in my mind that they meet the economic needs of the people. They are well balanced between tax concessions and increases in social spending. They are, above all, fair to everyone—to the pensioner and the wage-earner; to the sick, the disabled and the unemployed; to mothers and their children. That combination of economic success with social justice is the hallmark of this Government in general as well as the Budget in particular. It is a combination which will commend the Budget to the people of Britain now, and which wilt help to ensure their support for a Labour Government when the time comes for a final judgment on our stewardship.
  4.40 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Rees: It is a great pleasure for me to be following the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. I do not believe that we have been engaged in public debate in such close proximity since the bright June of 1970. Indeed, I seem to catch an echo of the public platform, rather than the debating chamber, in his speech today. It was uncharacteristically bombastic. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] The Chief Secretary has had his say, and how satisfactory it was to him or his hon. Friends remains to be seen. I have noticed that he has the full-hearted support of Labour Members on the Benches behind him today. It does not happen to be a Conservative Budget that I am defending. I am here to judge and express my view, and a Conservative view, on what I hope

  1693
  will be the last Labour Budget for many a long year.
  Of course, we know what the role of the Secretary of State is. It is to reassure his right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)—I am sorry that she is not in her accustomed place—and Mr. Frank Field that the Labour Government still have a heart and that they wear it on their left sleeve. By contrast, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will be here on Monday to persuade the business community that the Labour Government have a head. Of course, like Janus, they have two heads. One of them faces intermittently towards the business community, and the other permanently towards the Tribune group and the TUC.
  The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Stanley Orme): It is two faces, not two heads.
  Mr. Rees: I stand corrected. I am so glad that the profundity of the Minister's classical education is being put to such good purpose at present.
  The Secretary of State told us that wages and salaries had been held back, but he also said yesterday an interesting and rather equivocal thing. He told us that earnings will be rising substantially ahead of prices. It was on that basis that the increase in benefits that has been announced has been calculated. I think that he ought to have been a little more explicit to the House. Perhaps his right hon. Friend will be able to fill in the gaps later in the debate. Exactly on what projections is the Secretary of State basing his calculations? On what rate of increase in earnings are the Government constructing their economic policy? Will there be a phase 4? If so, what kind of guidelines will be laid down? Only in that way shall we be able to judge the adequacy of the provision that has been made.
  Again, the right hon. Gentleman, taking a leaf out of the Chief Secretary's book, in a series of short, staccato barks endeavoured to probe the Conservative Party's public expenditure plans. He seems to assume that with public expenditure running at the rate of between £40 billion and £50 billion a year there is no room for redistribution within that overall figure and that we must be frozen into the pattern that has been adopted by the
  1694
  present Government. He is making a totally false assumption.
  Then again—I assume it is because he was not following our debates very closely between 1970 and 1974—the right hon. Gentleman referred to the "Tory pension swindle", totally overlooking the great measure introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), which put a rather different complexion on the problem which the right hon. Gentleman sketched in such a superficial and partisan way. I shall not get drawn further into that. That is something we can debate from public platforms. It is not a serious matter for debate today. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I shall make my speech in my own way. If the Financial Secretary is equally ignorant of it, he should turn to the gentlemen in the Box and receive rather better briefing.
  Mr. Ennals: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that one of the great weaknesses in the Bill that was introduced at that time was that it made no adequate provision for inflation-proofing pensions, and that the main thing that we have in our new pension scheme—which right hon. and hon. Members of the Opposition have now absolutely supported—is that it has absolutely foolproof protection for the pensioner in the future? That is its great merit. It is a merit that was not included in the scheme, which, quite rightly, we dropped when the Labour Government returned to office.
  Mr. Rees: The right hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that we did not envisage that a Labour Chancellor would preside supinely over an inflation rate of 25 per cent.
  I come to the particular measures for which the right hon. Gentleman takes a certain modest credit. First, the Opposition welcome the child benefit increases. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) pledged the Conservative Party in 1977 to a thoroughgoing and fully-fledged child benefit scheme, so naturally we welcome the measures announced yesterday. Of course, we shall need to consider how far in conjunction with the tax measures there is now solid encouragement to work or to climb out of the poverty trap. I shall be coming to that

  1695
  matter when I devote a little attention to the personal allowances and the reduced rate band announced in the Chancellor's Budget measures.
  Of course, but for the child benefit increases, as my right hon and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) had occasion to point out yesterday, the tax relief to the average family with two children would be only 14p a week. This perhaps gives the measure of this Budget and its generosity. The right hon. Gentleman was disposed to talk about the "fruits of success". We shall be coming to measure that success shortly. But I would describe them as Dead Sea fruits.
  I turn briefly to the pension increases. We welcome these. If I may venture one small criticism, it is that since the age allowance has not been increased in line with the retail price index, it will follow inevitably that more pensioners will be within the charge to tax. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will wish to consider that with his right hon. and hon. Friends. I thought that yesterday he gave a rather evasive answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker) about the departmental review that apparently he is conducting on the earnings rule. I hope that he will be able to be a little more explicit about that in the fairly near future.
  I come finally to the £50 million that has been allocated for the National Health Service. I noticed yesterday that the right hon. Gentleman, in a commendable burst of camaraderie—and it is nice to find such solidarity on the Treasury Bench—described his Treasury colleagues as generous in the extreme. May we assume from that that he did not ask for more than £50 million and that he was agreeably gratified by the amount that was awarded for the National Health Service?
  Mrs. Dunwoody: The hon. and learned Gentleman is not doing very well.
  Mr. Rees: Give me a chance. There is time, I am following a rather indifferent performance.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: The hon. and learned Gentleman is talking about his own performance.
  Mr. Rees: No doubt the hon. Lady will have a chance to catch Mr. Deputy Speaker's eye in due course and make from a standing position such comments as she chooses on my performance. I am here to comment on her right hon. Friend's performance.
  As regards the £50 million allocated for the NHS, I would say that it is too much or too little. It is too much if, as I suspect, the measures announced are no more than a cosmetic tinkering with the NHS.
  Mr. Ennals: Absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Rees: We shall have a chance to explore this matter next Thursday in the debate to be mounted on the NHS. But I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be in a position to deal with the rather trenchant criticisms mounted by the Public Accounts Committee. He might devote a little time to that next Thursday.
  Mr. Frank Hooley: The hon. and learned Gentleman will probably not know that it is anything but cosmetic tinkering to provide funds that will bring the Hallamshire Hospital in Sheffield and other hospitals in that area into full operation. This is very necessary and important.
  Mr. Rees: I am delighted to hear that at least one hon. Member can see some solid advantage for his own constituency. I would certainly not grudge that to him. Indeed, I hope very much that an orthopaedic ward in my own constituency will be finally brought into operation.
  However, if, as I say, this is only cosmetic tinkering, the allocation is too much. If, on the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting a serious and fundamental overhaul of the whole national health system, if he is really intending to try to raise morale, I suggest that the amount is far too small. But we shall have an opportunity to explore that next Thursday, so I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will contain himself.
  Mr. Ennals Mr. Ennals rose—
  Mr. Rees: Labour Members pay us a singular tribute. They seem to concede that we are the de facto Government of the country and that we have the same access to the accounts that they have.
  Mr. Ennals: One of the advantages of being in Opposition, which the hon. and

  1697
  learned Gentleman must have discovered and which I hope he will understand for many years to come, is that at least one can put forward a view. One can at least say that one thinks that the amount should be more or that it should be less, perhaps that it should be twice or three times as much. Surely the hon. and learned Gentleman will, on behalf of his right hon. Friends, give some idea whether they think it should be more or less.
  Mr. Rees: This will no doubt be the theme of next Thursday's debate. The right hon. Gentleman must contain himself a little more. I am in no position to overhaul the Health Service from this Dispatch Box this afternoon. If the right hon. Gentleman would like to outline the areas that he thinks call for particular, close attention, perhaps we could have a meaningful debate. I have no doubt that my hon. Friends will be listening very carefully to what he says and that next Thursday they will make very good use of the opportunity being offered to them.
  The idea that I can pick a figure out of the air, that I can say, for example, that £375 million is the figure for which we shall be arguing, is absurd. The right hon. Gentleman is showing a considerable degree of ignorance of the role of Opposition. It could be because he has been privileged to be in the House only in periods of Labour Government. He will no doubt have an opportunity very soon to adopt a slightly more critical and detached role, but I do not want to anticipate.
  The right hon. Gentleman started to talk about the fruits of success, of light at the end of the tunnel, and he is right, because we must consider the Budget proposals as a whole and in their context. On Tuesday the Chancellor of the Exchequer was disposed to dispense with the historical preamble, but to form any meaningful judgment on his Budget proposals we must view them as the thirteenth Budget of a line, the last in four years. On any rational calculation this should be the Chancellor's last Budget. I emphasise "rational calculation", because on an irrational calculation, notwithstanding what the Prime Minister said at Question Time today, while the Prime Minister dithers over the timing of
  1698
  the next General Election it could well be that the Chancellor will try to slip in a fourteenth Budget.
  We have reports of what the Chancellor said to the Parliamentary Labour Party. Having raised expectations earlier this year, expectations which he has so signally failed to satisfy, he hopes, I suppose, to retain our interest with further hints of more to come. I can only tell the Chancellor that the law of diminishing returns applies in this case, too.
  I should like to take the House back for a moment to 1974, as the Chancellor did momentarily in his speech. In his Budget speech of 26th March of that year, he was engagingly and unusually modest. Perhaps at that stage he had not been exposed to bruising encounters with the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe). If the Chancellor were to be switched to the Foreign Office, after his experiences with the hon. Gentleman he would no doubt be very well equipped to deal with Mr. Andrew Young. The right hon. Gentleman said then:
  "the Chancellor of the Exchequer has one critical responsibility which no one else can share: his Budget must provide the framework for effective action by the nation as a whole."
  We are entitled to ask how effectively the British nation has performed within the framework set four years ago by the Chancellor. I believe that the best commentary on our performance as a nation over the past four years is provided in paragraph 49 of the expenditure White Paper. That is a highly misleading, highly political and partisan document, but still there are perhaps little nuggets of truth that can be extracted from it. Paragraph 49 says:
  "Between 1973 and 1977 there was no change in output in the United Kingdom; and real national disposable income fell by 2¼ per cent., reflecting the adverse movement of the terms of trade. Whereas public and personal consumption had been growing more or less in line over the previous decade, they diverged after 1973; personal consumption actually fell between 1973 and 1977, while public authorities' consumption rose at an average annual rate of 2½ per cent."
  How can we summarise those four years? Production has not yet surpassed that in 1973. In fact, the past four years have been one long three-day week, except at the Revenue Department which Mr. Christopher tells us is still suffering from Budget fatigue. National disposable

  1699
  income is less. Unemployment in February 1974 was 629,000. In February this year it was 1,509,000. Were there reasonably stable prices—8·4 per cent. inflation, after manipulating VAT, in September 1974?
  I would remind the House of another engaging thing the Chancellor said in March 1974:
  "We in Britain have always taken pride in our ability to face reality when we are told the truth."
  I wonder whether the Chancellor feels that he has told the truth to the British nation over the past four years.
  The balance of payments current account is in surplus, but would it be in surplus without North Sea oil? I am reminded of what Lord Randolph Churchill said about Mr. Gladstone: "I do not mind Mr. Gladstone's having an ace up his sleeve. I resent his claim that the Almighty put it there." I do not mind Labour Ministers extolling the advantages of North Sea oil. I resent their implied claim that it would not be yielding advantages without them.
  Perhaps the most revealing lapse of the Budget speech was when the Chancellor revealed that the next Government bond issue in New York would receive a triple A rating. I believe that one year ago—perhaps this will be confirmed in the winding-up speech—soundings were taken as to what a British Government bond issue would rate, and the Government were told that it would be a single A rating, putting us below Japan, Finland and Venezuela. Has British Government credit ever sunk so low? This is hardly a solid record of achievement. It is hardly a solid foundation on which to build.
  In his peroration, the Chancellor said:
  "In one way or another my Budget calls on the majority of the British people to make some sacrifice for the survival of their way of life."—[Official Report, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 289–328.].
  What have four years of sacrifice achieved—a dynamic economy, better public services, higher standards of living, reduced unemployment? What kind of elysium has the Chancellor led us to? I suppose that the Tribune group is lying down with the Manifesto group, and there is a small patch of grazing for the Liberal Party, but beyond that I do not believe
  1700
  that any of us has benefited from four years of sacrifice.
  Mr. Douglas Crawford: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree with the chairman of the Scottish Council that there should be a separate oil account, to which the Government have said "No", or can he help to elucidate the Conservative position on what should be done with the revenues from North Sea oil and say whether there should be a separate oil account in the Budget?
  Mr. Rees: If the hon. Gentleman is asking whether we should hypothecate North Sea oil to any particular purpose, I would reply "No". I do not think that that is a very practical conclusion. What we do with it is material for a full-scale debate.
  I return to the matter of four years of sacrifice. The Labour Government believe in redemption through suffering. Whether the British people share those sentiments I doubt, but we have been told by the Chancellor, rather wistfully, that this Budget is not one of sacrifice. Let us judge it on the terms in which he presented it to the House. He described it as a recipe for commercial and industrial success. Let us judge it on that basis.
  There were last night certain criticisms by the Financial Secretary and the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) that we were not presenting a Conservative Budget. Like his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, the Financial Secretary clearly believes that attack is the best form of defence. From the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles we learned one thing last night. I had always assumed that every Liberal Member was a member of the Liberal Shadow Cabinet. It turns out that, regrettably, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) are not members of the Shadow Cabinet. Evidently, in spite of that, we must all produce our Budgets. As with the Red Queen, "Everyone shall compete and everyone shall win prizes."
  There will be time enough to debate the first Conservative Budget of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East. Today we are debating the Chancellor of the Exchequer's last

  1701
  Socialist Budget. I tell the Government Front Bench that my right hon. and learned Friend's first Conservative Budget will be carefully costed, it will be responsible, and it will be stimulating.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: It had better be an improvement on this Budget.
  Mr. Rees: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. If this is an incentive Budget, it has fallen like lead on the British people. The hon. Lady will have her chance to hold the House with her fascinating discourse perhaps a little later on, and we shall no doubt listen to her with very great interest indeed. I remind the hon. Lady of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in 1974:
  "The social and, indeed, the human climate is as likely to influence the British people's efforts as anything which is done in the strictly economic field."
  Let us test the Chancellor's Budget by that statement. There are tax cuts amounting to £2·5 billion, but will they be measured by a response in output, jobs, risks taken and enterprises founded?
  I remind the House that there are no real tax cuts. The outturn shows that in fact tax will increase over 1977–78 by £2 billion. Labour tax cuts are like Labour public expenditure cuts: they are merely moderation in increases.
  We recall that the Liberal Party voted for the public expenditure White Paper this year. That will perhaps disable it now from taking a critical stance over the Budget. Perhaps the spokesman for the Liberal Party today will demonstrate today how his dreamland Budget is to be implemented. We shall we waiting with very great interest indeed to discover how much support we can command in Committee from the Liberal ranks.
  I turn to the individual proposals to ascertain what impact they will make on the British people. Let us see what kind of incentive Budget the Chancellor has produced. Let us look first at the reduced rate band. True enough, there will be some relief for all taxpayers paying tax at the basic rate. It will ease very slightly the transition from no tax to tax and insurance contributions at a rate of 40·5 per cent. But the narrowness of the band at £750 will take very few people out of tax.
  It is a highly inefficient way of giving relief. Had relief been concentrated on
  1702
  the thresholds, it would have taken a much larger number of people out of tax, it would have relieved the poverty trap, and by keeping personal allowances clear of the short-term benefits it would have provided some additional incentive to work.
  I remind the Treasury Front Bench that a widow or female pensioner under 65 will be paying tax if she has £1 a week of savings income over and above her pension. Is that an incentive proposal?
  I confess to continuing puzzlement that there has been no reduction in the basic rate. Last year the Chancellor promised us a reduction from 35 per cent. to 33 per cent. That was his initial proposal. But, as always, he flinched before the gaze of his hon. Friends the Members for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) and Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker).
  It is not as though the problem has not been recognised from the Treasury Bench. I remind the House of what the Chief Secretary has said:
  "I want to turn to the erosion of differentials.… I have said on numerous occasions that we recognise that the combination of the incomes policies of successive Governments, together with tax increases, has considerably eroded the differentials between the highest and the average paid, between the unskilled and the skilled, between those in work and those out of it. I have never hidden the fact that I recognise that there is a problem with which we must deal."
  But year after year this problem defies solution by the Treasury Bench. Even the winning ways of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North, even the pressure from the Liberal ranks, has presumably failed to move the flinty heart of the Chancellor.
  There was a revealing exchange yesterday between the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Shelkirk and Peebles and his hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale. We understand that the point was left a little unclear. Possibly there will be some support in Committee for measures to reduce the basic rate.
  But there was just a faint hint from the Chief Secretary that at some unspecified point of time in the future the whole basic rate is to be at the present reduced rate of 25 per cent. Will his right hon. Friend confirm, when he replies tonight, that that is a Labour objective—or is it just something that is trotted out whenever we have a debate about the levels of taxation?

  1703
  I now turn to the higher rates. There has, of course, been a minuscule adjustment of the rate bands. The top rates remain the same, but in real terms we are nothing like back to the position in 1973–74. Again I remind the Chief Secretary that he said:
  "It would be comparatively cheap…to give substantial relief to those at the top end of the tax scale."—[Official Report, 3rd March 1977; Vol. 926, c. 666–9.]
  But once again he has flinched, even with Liberal support, from facing the accusing eyes of his hon. Friends below the Gangway. Presumably he has been unable to drip into their tiny Chinese minds that if we are to have an increase in risk-taking, and if we are to have an increase in effort, something must be done about the highest rates of direct taxation in Western Europe.
  I turn now to small businesses. We naturally welcome the measures which are proposed—such as they are. We welcome the VAT proposals, but they are only picking up amendments which we moved last year in Committee, and which again proved too daunting for the Treasury Bench on that occasion. But I suspect that the advantages to small businesses will be more than counterbalanced by the increase in the minimum lending rate. If the House wishes to find an instant commentary on the Chancellor's proposals, it is in the Chancellor's own proposal to raise the minimum lending rate by 1 per cent. This was the kind of confident response which he expected to the proposals he announced on Tuesday.
  Beyond that, there is a little in capital transfer tax, but no substantial transformation. The Financial Secretary told us engagingly that he believed in continuity of measures. Therefore, I suppose that it would be too much to expect a fundamental overhaul of the tax that was introduced in 1975.
  There is nothing substantial in regard to provision for capital gains tax. I suppose that again the Treasury Bench Ministers have been daunted by the reaction of their hon. Friends below the Gangway and by the administrative difficulties.
  I believe that the most substantial announcement that the Government could make, and which would really give heart to the small business sector, would
  1704
  be that a weatlh tax is not to be introduced. I believe that the small business sector will test the sincerity of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster by the statement that he is prepared or not prepared to make on that subject on Monday.
  Finally, I turn to the subject of share incentives. We welcome these modest measures. If the hon. Member for Cornwall, North—I am sorry that he is not in his seat—wishes to claim paternity for them, I shall not grudge him this small and modest measure of success. After so many bruising encounters with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he is entitled to something.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Bruising encounters?
  Mr. Rees: Perhaps the hon. Lady has not read the rather revealing article in the News of the World by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North, which perhaps tells us more about the true nature of the Lib-Lab pact than anything we have heard in the Chamber.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I have not read the News of the World.
  Mr. Rees: Plainly the hon. Lady must add to her reading matter if she is to understand the workings of the Lib-Lab pact, and the encounters between the people who represent her party and the people who represent the Liberal Party.
  There has, of course, been a long Conservative involvement with share option schemes and share incentive schemes. I remind the Treasury Bench that it was the Prime Minister who in 1967, when he was at 11 Downing Street, effectively legislated out of existence any possibility of share incentive schemes at that date. When a modest measure of reform was introduced in 1972–73, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was on that day leading for the Opposition, indicated that he would have nothing to do with share incentive schemes or share option schemes because they did nothing for the lowest paid and for those in the public sector. Evidently the powerful advocacy of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North has persuaded him to change his mind. We shall look closely at those particular measures in Committee. We welcome the principle and we shall see whether we can build on them and extend them.
  What is the verdict to be on this Budget? In my opinion, it is too little,

  1705
  too late and too thinly spread. There is no triple A rating for this Budget. This is the Budget of a Chancellor who is a prisoner of the conditions and prejudices that he has done so much to create. Since this Budget will be his last, I shall describe it as a requiem for a Chancellor. When the right hon. Gentleman is laid to rest in Highgate Cemetery beside his boyhood hero, Karl Marx, perhaps we shall inscribe on his tomb "Here lies a man who over 10 years in the highest offices of State enfeebled the military and economic capacity of the British nation".
  5.11 p.m.
  Mrs. Renée Short: I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees) very sincerely. It is a long time since we had a good laugh from any hon. Member speaking from the Conservative Front Bench. I wish him a long sojourn in that position.
  Contrary to what the hon. and learned Gentleman said, this Budget has been generally well received. I am delighted that schoolchildren in Wolverhampton will not have to pay more for their school meals. I am particularly delighted that the junior children will again get school milk after "Mrs. Thatcher the Snatcher" took it away from them. If we have to thank the EEC a little, well, OK. I shall say "Thank you". I do not mind where the money comes from as long as we get it.
  I would have given my right hon. Friend the Chancellor a big bouquet if he had been a little more generous to the arts and taken off VAT. I hope that if he is to produce another Budget later this year he will think about that. A small amount of money is involved, but it would do a great deal to relieve a very difficult position at present.
  I would also give my right hon. Friend a big bouquet for putting increased taxation on high tar cigarettes. If he had gone all the way with the very good recommendations in the Expenditure Committee's report on preventive medicine and taxed all ranges of cigarettes—and if he had been very tough about the advertising of cigarettes, as the Expenditure Committee recommended—I do not know what I would have done with him. I would have been very grateful indeed.
  1706
  As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services knows, I have been trying to enlist the support of him and the Prime Minister in order to put pressure on those who are in a position to give Royal warrants to tobacco manufacturers. This is a very serious situation. I understand that Her Majesty does not smoke, but she gives a Royal warrant to one or two tobacco firms. I understand that the Queen Mother now does not smoke, although she used to. But as recently as 1974 she gave the Royal warrant to Player's. This would be a very good example to the whole community with regard to a serious matter which puts enormous burdens on the NHS, particularly with regard to the incidence of coronary heart disease, bronchitic complaints, lung cancer and so on.
  Tobacco consumption should be restricted by every possible means at our disposal. If I am able to catch the eye of the Chair next week, I hope to return to this theme in rather more detail. The whole area of preventive medicine is so important with regard to the problems which the NHS has to deal with in so many spheres that we could save a great deal of NHS expenditure by attempting to prevent disease. The possibilities are within our own hands.
  Mr. Nick Budgen: Will the hon. Lady reconsider her remarks? She said that she was in favour of dealing with preventive medicine by all methods. Is she really saying that she would be in favour of banning some substances of which she disapproves so as to make it a criminal offence, for instance, for people to smoke, or is she limiting her observations and saying that there is a case for increasing taxation on certain substances?
  Mrs. Short: I did not say what the hon. Gentleman thought I said. I do not think it is within the bounds of possibility to say that it should be a criminal offence to smoke. One hopes that opportunities for smoking will be reduced. I would be very happy to see smoking carriages removed from trains and buses.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: And planes.
  Mrs. Short: And planes. I do not think that that would be a real hardship for smokers. I would certainly restrict all tobacco advertising except at the point

  1707
  of sale. There have been very good results in Norway, where tough anti-advertising legislation has been introduced. In fact, the amount of tobacco smoking has reduced in Norway since tough restrictions on advertising were introduced.
  I do not know why we are so chary about doing these things when other countries have carried them out and found that they are really worth while. Sometimes we are too timid. My right hon. Friend ought to gain courage from the advice he has been given by the all-party Select Committee. I would emphasise the all-party nature of the recommendations which the Select Committee put forward. I hope that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) is now satisfied and understands exactly what my position is.
  I welcome the help for pensioners. I am particularly glad that help is to be given—through increased NHS resources—for kidney patients through increased opportunities for dialysis. I would refer my right hon. Friend to the recommendations in this regard that have been put forward by the Lucas Aerospace shop stewards in their alternative plan. One of their proposals was precisely that they could well embark on the manufacture of kidney machines as well as solar heating appliances for conserving energy. It would be of enormous help if the go-ahead could be given to the Lucas firm to carry out this manufacture.
  I am disappointed that we have not made all that much progress with regard to smoking. I remind the House that four fairly recent occupants of the Throne have died from smoking-related diseases. That is surely a sobering thought for everyone, particularly those most concerned with the whole question of the Royal warrant.
  Edward VII suffered severe bronchitis from heavy smoking when he was in his early 40s. I understand that he smoked 12 large cigars a day and at least 20 cigarettes. The mind boggles at that amount of smoking. George V was also a heavy smoker. He had bronchitis, and I understand that when he was operated on for lung cancer he even insisted on smoking after the operation. Edward VIII was another heavy smoker. George VI smoked 40 or 50 cigarettes a day and
  1708
  suffered badly towards the end of his life through difficulties with his leg arteries and circulation. All this was related to smoking. We must take this on board and do something about it.
  One must look at all the provisions in the Budget with regard to what they will do for unemployment. Our prime task is whatever we do must be to bring down the appalling level of unemployment. We must bring down the number of adult unemployed and, above all, provide job opportunities for the increasing number of school leavers who are at present in enormous difficulty because they are unable to find jobs. I am sorry to say that many of them leave school with very little to offer a potential employer in terms of attainment at school and encouragement at home. This is really a very serious problem.
  The Government's target should be to cut the numbers of people who are unemployed by at least half by the year 1981, which is a modest enough target. At a time when the labour force is expanding, we shall require very sustained economic growth if the target is to be achieved over that period. It will mean growth of about 4½ per cent. per annum, and we are a long way from achieving that.
  The Conservative Party always says that the reason for our poor industrial performance is that there are not sufficient incentives for industrialists and for people who might want to start small businesses. That is not really the reason at all. The problem is that we are a low-investment, low-productive and low-wage economy. We have been since before the war, and we have not overcome that problem. Unless we can do so, we shall not increase our production or productivity and we shall lag behind Japan and our other competitors and be in an increasingly serious position as the years go by.
  We have to bear in mind that, when we compare our industrial performance with that of the Japanese, there is a great deal more horsepower behind every Japanese worker in every Japanese factory than there is here. Increased horsepower means increased productivity. It is as simple as that. So we need an enormous amount of capital investment in new equipment and machinery.
  Looking at the problem of unemployment, it is clear that one of the crucial

  1709
  components facing us is the projected growth in the labour force. The Department of Employment Gazette last June published the latest projections indicating that the total labour force was expected to grow from 26,053,000 in 1977 to 26,734,000 in 1981 and to 27,781,000 in 1986, which is an increase of 681,000 between 1977 and 1981, and that there would be a further increase of 1,047,000 in the following five years. Part of the expected increase will be contributed to by the increasing number of school leavers who will be joining the labour force year after year, and there are also a number of married women who will be wanting to join the labour force.
  What are we to do about this increase? It seems to me that the proposals that we have for cushioning the effect of unemployment on both adults and young people are not adequate. I know that we have a certain amount of money projected for the next four or five years. But, bearing in mind the numbers coming on to the labour market and the special difficulties of young people, particularly low attainers, there will be a need for very much more generosity on the part of the Government and much more concentration on the specific needs of young people in order to equip them for employment in the future.
  One of the problems which face us, apart from cut-backs in the National Health Service expendture, is the cut-back in education expenditure. I regret very much that my right hon. Friend has not seen fit to put more resources into education. I should like to see much more put into the early end of education in order to rescue what remains of nursery education. It is a scandal that there has been so much decline in that provision over the last two years or so. But, especially in the context of unemployment, there is the problem of what we are to do to improve the educational achievement of young people. The most difficult are the young West Indians who leave school without backing from their parents, without ambition and without being motivated when they are at school to seek employment or training and to show any kind of resourcefulness. However, it is not only young West Indians who are badly motivated. It is generally young people whom we class as low attainers.
  1710
  We need to have a new look at the way in which we teach certain subjects in school. We need especially to have a rapid new look at what we do in providing opportunities for girls in school. The fact that so few girls come forward for engineering and science subjects is a major scandal when we are supposed to have equal opportunities. But certainly we have to do a rapid reorganisation not only of teaching methods but of the kind of careers advice and enthusing which goes on in our schools, especially from the age of 13 onwards. In my view, it is not too soon to try to give this kind of incentive to young people at the age of 13. It is a sad reflection that we find that in education and in training for work experience so many young people are not encouraged to develop their potential to the maximum. This presents both short-term and long-term problems, which I hope that the Government will take on board.
  In the proposals being made for retraining and further education courses, which fall very heavily on colleges of further education, a large number of young people are taking advantage of work experience schemes and so on and are enrolling at colleges of further education for courses of all kinds. That is splendid. There are difficulties, of course, with the different levels of support given for young people under the different schemes. But that is a matter which I hope we can look at in the future when we are considering the whole question of maintaining young people between the ages of 16 and 19, including those who remain at school and who ought to remain at school because they have the capacity to take O-levels and A-levels.
  But the immediate problem is that young people are going into colleges of further education which are not able to cope with the large numbers presenting themselves. We have virtually slum conditions being created in many of our colleges. My Expenditure Committee, which is studying the problem of unemployment, has visited some of the colleges and we have been pretty shocked, especially by one college in North Wales where we saw an enormous number of students who were not being catered for properly. The provisions made for their meals, out-of-lecture times, recreation and social congress were non-existent, and

  1711
  this could have a damning effect on young people who go to college full of enthusiasm. There are very great responsibilities facing both the Government and local authorities in making proper provision for young people who are unemployed and for adults in the future.
  I am glad that my right hon. Friend feels that he has provided about 9,000 additional jobs by the provision of resources for the NHS in the Budget. He is making his contribution towards solving the problem of unemployment. But certainly we have a great deal to do if we are to achieve our target and cut unemployment by half within the next year or two.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Hordern: This morning the newspapers reported that the Chancellor, at a private meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party yesterday, had said that he hoped to bring forward a gratifying Budget in July. Today the evening newspapers quoted the Prime Minister as saying that there would not be a gratifying Budget in July. I am sure that there will be some sort of Budget in July, because that is what always happens with this Government.
  This Budget is the thirteenth that the Chancellor has produced. We should not blame him too much for getting it wrong as often as he has. It gives me no more satisfaction to see him getting it wrong than it would to watch an ageing boxer being knocked down in every round. It is very repetitive.
  The Chancellor's difficulty is that he has such a small amount of room for manoeuvre and he has left himself a very small margin of error. This makes his task doubly hard because his task is extraordinarily difficult anyway, given the habits and propensities of the Treasury for many years to run our affairs on a neo-Keynesian demand management principle.
  The Chancellor is responsible for managing public expenditure and taxation, but, as everyone who has sat through these Budgets knows, we have to listen to a great deal of talk about how the private sector and the overseas sector will react. Nobody would mind these forecasts too much, or object to the fact
  1712
  that it is almost impossible to forecast such things accurately and the essence of the whole thing turns out to be incorrect. But it does matter if the Chancellor depends for his money on the forecasts being correct, and that is what happens every time.
  What is difficult and dangerous about this Budget is that there is so little margin for error. It is important to recognise that the results of this policy have had a great deal to do with the continuing poor performance of our economy since the war. It is noticeable that in every economic cycle the position of our economy deteriorates against the economies of almost every other country in the world.
  I have seen the OECD figures recently showing 30 countries and their trade-weighted averages for the movement of their currencies since 1973. Only four countries have, in that period, had currencies that have done worse than ours—Italy, Brazil, Portugal and Greece. The score is one military coup, two revolutions and a kidnapped ex-President. That is not the sort of league of which we should be particularly proud to be a member.
  The steel industry is in a very poor condition throughout the world, but nowhere is it worse than in Britain today. I believe that the same could be said of shipbuilding. Other hon. Members will know more about this than I do. It is even more worrying when one reads that the chairman of ICI says that productivity of that great firm is worse here than in many other chemical companies in other countries.
  This Monday we had the report about British Leyland. As we gave that company £835 million—some of us more reluctantly than others—we were told that the company would generate a similar sum from its own resources. But we were told this sort of thing in the Ryder plan, and that was only three years ago. What real prospect is there of British Leyland generating that sort of money from its own resources? The figure in the NEB report showed that the output per man today of British Leyland was only 5·4 cars. It is hoped that that figure will increase to 6·4 by the end of 1978 and that it might even reach eight cars per man. But even if it does reach eight cars that will be 25 per cent. below the output of all European countries

  1713
  today, and less than half the output achieved now in the United States and Japan. We are right to be gloomy about the prospects of success for British Leyland.
  What is the real cost of expenditure of that sort? Suppose that British Leyland does not generate £850 million. That means that every penny of revenue from North Sea oil over the next five years will go straight to British Leyland. There will be no need to produce a White Paper on North Sea oil revenue because the revenue will all go to British Leyland, if it has the same record as it has had in the past three years. That is what it will cost. No doubt if the Scottish National Party finds some favour in the referendum that the Scots will have there might be a different result, but on present prospects all that money will go straight to British Leyland and there will be nothing left for anyone else.
  I do not know why the Chief Secretary in his woolly statement yesterday said that things were going well. Our prices are rising faster here than anywhere else, except perhaps Italy. The same is certainly true of the money supply. Those who believe, as I do, in monetarist policies feel that this is a better indication of how inflation will go in the next two years, and we believe that ours will be far above the rates of other countries.
  I shall give one more example of our competitive position. A report in the Financial Times from a German agency shows how the mark has become so competitive against other currencies. The level of German exports to this country has improved and Germany's share of our market has grown to a larger extent than its share of the market in any other country in the world. Despite the fact that the mark has appreciated in value more against sterling than against the currency of any other country—
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Would the hon. Member pay tribute to the Common Market for assisting the rise in German exports? This is helped by the amount of compensation paid to German farmers for exporting their dairy products to this country.
  Mr. Hordern: No, I would not. That is quite irrelevant. The point is that the German authorities have always had a very good control over their economy by using methods that are very different from those practised by this Government.
  1714
  The value of the mark has appreciated against sterling more than against any currency except the Italian lira. But consumer prices in Germany have risen by only 36 per cent. since 1969. Therefore, Germany's goods, because the Germans are so good on delivery and on other aspects, are still relatively competitive in our country. This is the reason for their success.
  Even today prices in Germany are rising by only 3 per cent. and the money supply is due to rise by 8 per cent Our money supply has been rising by 18 per cent. in the last six months and the forecast is that it should rise by 12 per cent. Many of us think that this is very unlikely.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Denzil Davies): The hon. Member said that the inflation rate of Germany was 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. and that the money supply was rising by 8 per cent. As a confirmed monetarist, how can he explain that paradox?
  Mr. Hordern: The gap is made up by production and productivity. There is not an exact relationship, but that is always what the difference is. Nobody would deny that in comparison with whatever country one likes to examine money supply is growing much faster in this country than anywhere else, and so is the level of prices. What is more, this is happening at a period when our production is stagnant and our productivity practically non-existent. What will happen when there is any growth? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has forecast a period of growth of 3 per cent. for this year. What then will happen to prices and imports if that increase in growth occurs?
  The explanation given for this sorry performance is that part of it is due to bad management. Another explanation is that it is due to restrictive practices by the trade unions. I believe that there is considerable truth in the latter, and some in the former as well. But I wonder whether there is another explanation, namely, that during the last four years, and I am afraid long before that, industry and business have never been left alone for a moment. I believe that this is a compelling reason for our poor industrial economic performance in the last few years. The fact is that, whenever industry

  1715
  fails in one direction or another, Governments always tend to intervene. When they find that the intervention does not work as quickly or as well as they would like, they intervene even further than they did before. That is always the reaction.
  I do not recollect in any of Keynes' writings that he thought it was a good idea to erect a Department of Industry or a National Enterprise Board. It does not make sense in any Communist country either, when they control all the means of production and industry, that they should decide to switch resources from some parts of the economy that are doing well to parts that are doing badly. In no sense is it anything that can reasonably be defended. So we have gone on subsidising those parts of industry which are inefficient and taken resources from those parts which are efficient and which are often the small firms and small businesses.
  The cost of all this can be seen in the Budget Statement this year. The cost of public expenditure now is £64·7 billion against the figure a year ago of £56·5 billion. I am talking not about "funny money" but about money which people must provide, which is up by 15 per cent. on what it was a year ago.
  The Prime Minister at the Labour Party conference in Blackpool in 1976 said:
  "We used to think that you could spend your way out of recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting Government spending. I tell you in all candour that this option no longer exists."
  But we see that that option does exist because taxes are being cut in the Budget and Government spending is being boosted. Money is being printed yet again. This time, the margin of error is smaller than it has ever been because we have enormous borrowing requirements amounting to £8,500 million and at the same time, as the Financial Statement says, the current account forecast could be £1 billion wrong in either direction. Against that position on current account, which is possibly wrong by that amount, with all that it implies for public expenditure and to other parts of the economy, the Contingency Fund has been raided immediately so that it is down to £200 million.
  1716
  I thought that it was one of the more remarkable parts of the Budget debate for the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Social Services to claim today that these were great advances for both aspects of the Department and to have soaked the Contingency Fund to achieve it. It would have been a different matter if this had been raised from revenue, but to have extracted practically every penny from the Contingency Fund shows that the Government are scraping the barrel. They have got the Contingency Fund down to £200 million even before the financial year starts. So I am not greatly impressed when the Chancellor says that he is asking for no great sacrifices for this year.
  The Chancellor has put everything he possibly can into the shop window. That includes the kitchen sink, and he knows it. I cannot recollect an occasion before in all the Budget speeches I have heard when a Chancellor has cut taxes in one breath and put up the cost of borrowing in the next.
  I do not know what the British people are supposed to do. Are we being asked to spend money to get the growth, because that is inherent in most of the Budget speech, or are we supposed to save it? Perhaps we are supposed to do both. Perhaps the Minister in his reply will tell us what we are supposed to do. We are supposed to spend the money we are receiving by way of extra tax relief in respect of the £2,500 million, and somehow the Government have to get back from us the £8,500 million. The right hon. Gentleman is bound to get one of them right. If we spend enough, we may obtain the growth. If we save enough, we may get the revenue that the Government need. But they cannot have both. This is the Government's difficulty. So bad has been the management of our economy in the last few years the Government cannot get the exercise right now because the level of public expenditure is far too high.
  I have noticed in recent economic reviews from the Treasury how much interest it now takes in monetary matters, and I think that is a very good sign, but I cannot believe that the Treasury is persuaded that these matters are important. The Treasury put in estimates dealing with monetary expansion from the view not of the convert but of one who has

  1717
  to put in such estimates because he has to persuade somebody it is something that that person wants to hear. In other words, the Treasury is not at all happy about the situation. It regards the people in the City and in the foreign exchanges as pirates.
  The situation would not be so bad if the Government were not so dependent on savings and on institutional funds for the management of their own affairs. I wish to offer a word of advice. If they want to depend less on monetary matters—because they do not seem to have the applause of business men, and unfortunately do not seem to read Sir Douglas Wass's essays or speeches and do not seem to appreciate the economic model sufficiently if none of these things happens—the Government should get themselves less attached to and less dependent upon monetary policies. They should not need to borrow quite so much. One way of achieving that end is to have not such a large financial deficit. One way of not having so large a deficit is not to spend quite so much as they do.
  The difficulty is that the Government are in a trap of their own construction. Not only have they a very small contingency allowance now, but there is no room for error of any sort. Already yesterday and today they will have seen the reaction of the markets and how people fear what the rate of inflation will be, because they feel that the Government will have to print money to get themselves out of difficulties or raise interest rates to an extraordinary extent. They will have to do one or the other.
  I believe that either way the management of the economy is a most important element and has a most responsible part to play in the bad economic performance of this country. If the Government want to achieve a better record, they must become less dependent on the market, and that might suit their proclivities more.
  I have said nothing in my speech about taxation. It is clear that the Government have just made a genuflection or two to the Liberal Party and to what they think might be popular with the electorate in reducing taxation. But they have done nothing at all, because they dare not do so against their trade union colleagues, about making a switch from direct to indirect taxation. The fact is that they do not believe in the private sector, they
  1718
  do not like free enterprise, they do not like cutting taxes, and for that reason they should go.
  5.49 p.m.
  Mr. George Rodgers: May I say at once that the long-anticipated Budget contains much that gives me great satisfaction. Its contents have rather caught the Opposition on the wrong foot. We have witnessed the Leader of the Opposition performing an ungainly version of the splits—with one foot resting on the proposition that the incentives which it offers are insufficient and the other foot resting on the notion that it is naught but an electioneering stratagem. Clearly, both objections cannot be sustained simultaneously.
  The right hon. Lady is in considerable danger of doing herself and the electoral prospects of her party no good by her rather shrill and unconsidered protestations. It is odd that there should be wailing and whining from the Opposition Benches because too little has been done to provide incentive for industry when, only a day or two ago, the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) spoke so ferociously about the folly of subsidising industry at all.
  We are sometimes inclined to overlook the enormity of the financial support that has been made available to the private sector of industry in recent years. In reply to a recent Question, I was told that since February 1974 about £1,062 million in grants and £126 million in concessionary rate loans had been made available under the Industry Act 1972. The Minister also pointed out that there are 100 per cent. tax allowances on investment in plant and machinery. This costs just over £2,500 million a year and, in addition, rates paid to local authorities are allowable against tax—which is not the case for domestic ratepayers.
  We should consider whether the Opposition have any policy. They resent bitterly any intrusion into the affairs of industry, yet they are eager to accept the handouts that are available on such a lavish scale.
  Mr. David Mitchell: Before developing his analysis of the Opposition's policy, could the hon. Gentleman indicate his reaction to the Government's policy of giving substantial tax

  1719
  reductions and a spending spree based on borrowed money?
  Mr. Rodgers: There we have the splendid contradiction. Half the Opposition say that not sufficient is being done while the rest resent anything being done. They have no coherent policy. The hon. Gentleman should concentrate on the failings in his party's philosophy rather than attack the Government's policy, which seems to be particularly effective at the moment.
  The concessions to industry that I have referred to do not include the massive amounts that continue to be paid through the temporary employment subsidy.
  The Government should be congratulated on their decision not to impose heavier taxation. That was not only correct but courageous, because there is no doubt that they have been under considerable pressure to increase those taxes. Those who advocate this formula as a method of securing revenue to finance further cuts in income tax are willing to inflict the additional burden of increased prices on pensioners who rely exclusively upon the State pension, widows who rely solely on their pension and one-parent families These groups do not receive enough to pay tax and they would therefore not benefit from a reduction in income tax.
  The philosophy advocated by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) is shabby, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will resist the hon. Gentleman's blandishments, even if that precipitates a General Election. Some of us believe that our association with the Liberal Party is already embarrassing, and this may be an appropriate moment for the Government to detach themselves from the alliance. There is no doubt that the noisy, but politically nonsensical, Liberal group adds nothing of value to the cause of the Labour victory that will inevitably come at the next General Election.
  I applaud the decision to introduce a new tax band for those at the lower end of the income scale. I would have preferred all relief to be concentrated at that level. Clearly, those in the upper income brackets will also have benefited as the section of their income at the
  1720
  lower end would have qualified for relief. At present, those who are already prosperous and well-heeled will be even better off compared with those who have to manage on small incomes. For instance, a married couple with an income of £2,000 a year—less than £40 a week—will be £69 a year better off, that is, less than £1·22 a week. The single person on £25,000 a year will have an extra £14 a week to jingle in his pocket.
  I have never fallen for the theory that tax concessions for top earners have the galvanising effect that is suggested by hon. Members opposite. The notion that our top managers will launch into a frenzy of activity upon receiving an even greater sum of money than they do at present is a pathetic illusion. Surely if the idea is sound, we can only assume that these managers are now working at only half pace. If the argument is that extra wealth is a necessary incentive at the top end of the income scale, it would surely seem logical that the remedy should be even more potent at the lower end. Yet the thinking undergoes a curious change somewhere along the road, because the Opposition's recipe for those at the lower end is that wage restriction is good for the nation, for the worker, and even, apparently, for his soul.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why he believes that it is in the interests of work people that British companies and nationalised industries should not be able to compete in the international market place for the best management that is available?
  Mr. Rodgers: I am inclined to suspect that there is a great deal of talent among workers in the publicly owned sector and the private sector which is never given enough opportunity. I suspect that we recruit at entirely the wrong level. If there were better avenues of promotion within nationalised and private industries, we would be able to recruit management of top calibre. We fail to do this at present.
  Mr. Hooley: Will my hon. Friend tell the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Bulmer) that the Japanese do not bother to compete in the international market place? They develop their own management expertise, and do it extremely effectively.
  Mr. Rodgers: My hon. Friend is correct.
  The improvement in allowances for the aged and those with children is first class and I cannot praise the Chancellor sufficiently for his recognition of the genuine need in this area.
  It is good to see free school milk re-introduced for children aged between seven and 11 and it is gratifying that the foolish notion of increasing the price of school meals has been abandoned.
  Of course, the allocation for improvements to education and the National Health Service is not sufficient. A total of £50 million will not go far in correcting the ills of the National Health Service, yet the intended expenditure on 400 additional kidney machines gives a dramatic indication and a good illustration of the impact of public finance when it is sensibly and humanely channelled. As a direct result of this investment, hundreds of people who would otherwise have faced certain death will be alive and active, and that is a more effective and noble way of utilising our resources than by giving people with incomes of £25,000 a year another £14 a week to fritter away on trivialities.
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton: They do not have £25,000 a year to spend, idiot.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant God-man Irvine): Order. Since the observations being made at the far end of the Chamber are not reaching the Chair, they are unproductive.
  Mr. Rodgers: We should applaud the additional expenditure on law and order. Concern on this matter is not a prerogative of hon. Members opposite. My hon. Friends and I have a particular detestation of vandalism and hooliganism, which are pathetic and pointless. If money can be spent on finding the cause and the cure, it will be well spent.
  I welcome the Budget proposals and congratulate the Chancellor and his team on a package which will have wide appeal. I have expressed reservations about certain aspects of the parcel and I shall pursue these objections, but it would be churlish not to offer praise for what is good and worthy—and there is a great deal of that in the Chancellor's proposals.
  1722
  The petty criticism that the Chancellor has introduced too many Budgets may be dismissed as paltry carping. There is nothing sacrosanct about the 12-month interval between Budgets. Surely it is common sense to adjust the economy in the light of prevailing circumstances. In their endeavour to oppose the financial measures that have been announced, Opposition Members have acted as though in a state of shock. There has been no cohesion in their assault. Their criticism has not been consistent. Indeed, it has often been contradictory. The old fallacy that among the ranks of the Conservative Party there is some special know-how about financial affairs has been thoroughly exposed.
  Contributions to the debate by Opposition Members have revealed that their prime concern is to protect and enhance the position of those who are already prosperous. Their attitude demonstrates that it would be a calamity for the ordinary people if the Conservative Party were allowed again to bluff and manoeuvre its way into power.
  6.1 p.m.
  Sir John Langford-Holt: I return to the topic which was introduced by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short)—namely, smoking. Before doing so I should declare an interest. I am employed by the Imperial Tobacco Company. The figures that I give have not been thrust upon me. I assure the hon. Lady and other hon. Members that they are the figures for which I asked.
  We do not expect applause from any industry when the Chancellor increases a tax to which its products are subject. I do not recall ever having heard whisky distillers or brewers cheering at the increase of the alcohol duty. However, the position of tobacco is somewhat different because there has been a total rejection by the industry of what the Chancellor has done.
  The relationship between the tobacco industry and Her Majesty's Government is based on an agreement which was reached about a year ago between the Secretary of State for Social Services and the industry. The right hon. Gentleman said at the time:
  "In view of the need, which the Government have recognised, for the industry to have

  1723
  a clear programme within which it can work, the entirety of these arrangements … will stand for at least three years."—[Official Report, 8th March 1977; Vol 927, c. 465.]
  That shows, first, that the right hon. Gentleman is much better at jargon than at English. I presume that by
  "the entirety of these arrangements"
  he means "all these arrangements". Secondly, those words seemed to indicate that on that date—8th March 1977—the right hon. Gentleman was supporting all the agreements that had been reached between his Department and the industry.
  It is worth considering the things that are known as tar tables—I think that that is the usual description. The tables were not produced by Her Majesty's Government or even thought up by them. They were not thought up by the Action on Smoking and Health organisation or by the Health Education Council. They were the idea of one of the tobacco companies. I think that they were the idea of Imperial Tobacco as long ago as 1966. For 10 years the whole notion of tar tables was cold-shouldered by the Government.
  What have the Imperial Tobacco Company and the other companies done? First, they have stuck to the agreement that was reached last year. Secondly, they have spent money and co-operated in every way with the Government. They have done so in producing alternatives to tobacco.
  New Smoking Material, which is a brand name, is the product of the Imperial Tobacco Company. Other such products have been produced by other companies, but New Smoking Material is a suitable description of what I am talking about. It is produced with the approval and probably the good wishes of the Government. The cost of research, which has been about £7½ million, for NSM has been shared between Imperial Tobacco and ICI. The result was submitted to the Hunter committee for its approval or rejection if it so decided. Lastly, Imperial Tobacco built a large factory at Ardeer in Scotland, which is an area of high unemployment, with the idea of producing this alternative material.
  When the product was launched, I think that the companies were entitled to believe that they had Her Majesty's Government's good will in what they were trying to do. However, the Health Edu-
  1724
  cation Council, using Government money, did all it could to persuade smokers not to switch from tobacco to New Smoking Material.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: Does the hon. Gentleman accept—I know that he is a very honest man—that there is a direct and hard evidential link between smoking, carcinogenic diseases, bronchitis and related diseases? There is that link between smoking full stop and those diseases, and not between smoking light cigarettes or heavy cigaretes, which may merely involve numbers. The Health Education Council was right to make that point.
  Sir J. Langford-Holt: Yes, but if moving from light to heavy cigarettes is such a pointless operation, what the Chancellor is trying to do is pointless also. In turning from tobacco to substitutes it must be recognised that the substitutes do not contain any nicotine and that they are not as addictive in their effect. In the long term, the effect will be to reduce smoking. Following the building of a factory which cost about £15 million, the action of the Government, either directly or indirectly, has meant that the substitute programme has come to a virtual standstill.
  When the new material came in, the Government decided that smokers would have to pay as much tax on it as they have to pay on tobacco. That was hardly the way in which to persuade them to change from an addictive tobacco to New Smoking Material. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East talked about tobacco, and she was right to draw the distinction.
  On Tuesday the Chancellor had a great opportunity to help the switch from tobacco to NSM. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave us a talk yesterday on rolling tobacco and the problems involved in taxation. These are difficult matters, but it is a great pity that the Chancellor missed his opportunity. If he had lessened the tax to a small extent on the substitutes, at the time increasing it on high tar cigarettes, he would have given a considerable impetus to the switch which the Government claim they want.
  It seems that on at least two occasions Her Majesty's Government have broken the terms of the agreement which was reached last year between them and the

  1725
  industry. Although I have no authority for saying so, I am sure that from my own personal knowledge I am right to say that the confidence of the industry in the integrity of Her Majesty's Government following these actions has sunk to such a low level that it will take a great deal of good will to bring it up to the level at which it should rest.
  6.9 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: The generalised abuse which has been flung at the Liberal Party in the course of the debate, starting with the tetchy and dyspeptic opening that the House had to suffer, takes my mind 200 miles from the Chamber to the Colne Valley in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, where the Liberal Party has thrived for 30 years on constant generalised abuse. The election that we lost in 1970 was the only one that was quiet, when we were not subject to very much in the way of hostility. Therefore, the more we are attacked, the happier I am.
  If my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall. North (Mr. Pardoe) catches your eye on Monday, Mr. Speaker, he will refer once again, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) did yesterday, to our bitter disappointment at the lack of incentive in the Budget. I shall leave that task to him.
  The Liberals particularly welcome, amongst the various social service expenditures that the Secretary of State for Social Services rattled off today, those which, for the adult population, transfer simple cash straight into people's pockets for them to spend, lay out and deal with in accordance with their own judgment, in preference to lavish spending from Whitehall or even from town halls simply to augment the social wage, infrastructure or corporate facilities, or whatever the trendy phrase is at the moment for centralised paternalistic expenditure. The child benefit increases and the retirement pension increases are particularly to be welcomed in that respect.
  Every year that goes by demonstrates, not just to us but to a great many people, that spending decisions overall are very much more wisely, frugally and carefully taken by individuals than by departments and corporate bodies. Of course, there is also the great satisfaction that, if mistakes are made in spending money, 20
  1726
  million people do not all make the same mistake, so that we do not have the gigantic Concorde-types of extravagance which have made the public so cynical about State spending.
  On that theme, I say at once how refreshing it was for everyone concerned about the future of democracy and involvement in our electoral system that the Chancellor in his statement drifted away from astronomical figures. Speaking of the National Health Service, he actually came down to earth with a reference to
  "over 400 extra kidney machines"—[Official Report, 11th April 1978; Vol. 947 c. 1197.]
  Even Back Benchers know what that means and can visualise it in terms of human health, satisfaction and relief. The rest of his speech, like virtually the whole of the Secretary of State's speech today—it would be just the same if the Conservative segment of the Opposition were in Government—was in mere terms of cash to be spent.
  In congratulating the Chancellor on that one splendid and enlightened sentence about kidney machines, I hope that Whitehall's desperate preoccupation with this terribly primitive business of cash limits, taking us back to the beads on the abacus and the counting of coppers in a basket, will not prevent work going forward urgently on cost-benefit statistics so that State finance can gradually come with some approximate closeness to the costing practice that business has been running virtually the whole of this century.
  Perhaps some day in the future Chancellors of the Exchequer will talk to us in terms of units of satisfaction, achievement and performance rather than only of astronomical sums of money. When £50 million is announced for the NHS, a great part of public opinion must be dubious about how much will actually be value for money.
  The other aspect that I particularly welcome is the reintroduction of a lower rate band. Even though it is regrettably narrow, it is a start on the path back to virtue. It is not all that long since we had a civilised income tax system and those who worked in it, in the Inland Revenue, were proud to operate it. This was when we had three lower rate bands before reaching the standard rate. But the Conservatives set the rot in motion

  1727
  by abolishing the third lower rate band in 1963. Then a Chancellor of the Exchequer who is no longer in the House and of whom attention to detail was not a prime characteristic abolished, in the most mistaken fashion, which the Liberals strenuously opposed, the second reduced rate in 1969 and committed the final crime in 1970.
  So, to the ridicule of the whole of the rest of the civilised world, we have had a lunatic income tax system which takes the first £1 of a person's taxable income into tax at 34p, and, instead of there being a smooth progression like a well-driven car moving away from the traffic lights when they turn green, we have a clumsy and jolting tax system which has been a great disincentive to a very large number of otherwise willing workers.
  Therefore, we welcome this first return to the virtue of the lower rate band, and we hope, although goodness knows how it is to be done under our present political system, to see the lower rate band expand gradually until it has taken over a greater part of the income tax network.
  I come now to the very elaborate collection of some 14 measures in the interests of what are described as "small firms". The Liberals believe that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, since he was given this task as a senior Cabinet Minister in September, has worked swiftly and decisively to begin to reverse the disastrous trend against small business which has operated probably for the last 20 years. But, of course, the small fruits so far indicate what a long and tedious process this is to be.
  I should like briefly to outline the aims that we Liberals have for new and small businesses. We want to see a stable planning and fiscal environment in which new business in particular but also all small business can expect to have some shelter from a fiscal system that is almost entirely designed to deal with large business organisations.
  During the 25 years that I was a partner in a very mixed accountancy practice in the North of England, I got fed to the teeth with explaining to clients from small and medium-size businesses, whose eyes became increasingly glazed as I droned on—[Laughter.]—I am glad to have such a response, because at least it shows that hon. Members have not
  1728
  actually succumbed to sleep yet—the effect on their small businesses of Inland Revenue and Finance Act provisions which were designed for the big boys.
  When those clients were confronted with all the jargon which is meant, very properly, for expenditure running into millions of pounds on plant, research and development, depletion and so on, there arose a cynicism about and a lack of understanding of the whole tax process which has contributed to the growing disrespect for the law.
  The Liberals believe that there must be positive discrimination in favour of new and small businesses and truly enterprising people. One very oblique gesture towards enterprising self-employed people has been contributed by the Chancellor. This is in his gross failure this year to do enough to relieve middle management of quite undeserved tax burdens. The message of his neglect of those in middle management this year is to stop working for an employer under PAYE, get out into the self-employment market and work for themselves, which unfortunately, of course, is not a piece of advice that all that many middle managers can take in this age of capital scarcity.
  We plead particularly for the type of youngish person in management, design or shop floor supervision or in a cost department, who is not interested in elaborately building himself an income of perks under the hidden economy which the Government have done so much to encourage. We should recognise—I wish that the Treasury recognised—that it someone diverts his energies from production, design and good management and spends half his working day organising his perks and establishing an empire of provisions in kind, he can probably get for himself a comfortable and almost plush existence. But the best people in business do not intend to spend half their working lives organising themselves in the hidden economy. They want to get their money, without much fuss and bother in administration, in an open and straightforward way. These are the people who are clobbered.
  The Chancellor will go down in history for many things, some of them very creditable. He is certainly a sticker at his post. But he will also go down as the patron saint of the under-the-counter economy. That is because, from the

  1729
  richest almost to the poorest of the able-bodied in our community, a second economy is operating under the counter in a thousand different ways to escape—and is succeeding in escaping—the attentions of the Civil Service. When that kind of thing happened on the Continent, we used to mock it as being wholly undesirable. But it has now taken root in this country. Part of the education of young people is to know how to get into the hidden economy and how to work this alternative system.
  We want to help the truly enterprising. To borrow the language of the Prime Minister's predecessor in Downing Street, we want to encourage people who are more interested in making things than in making only money.
  We want to get rid of the atmosphere of fear, gloom and pessimism which some people are able to generate about small businesses. Often without much justification, a great army of people who earn their money by promoting mergers, selling all kinds of devices for defeating the Revenue and suggesting new combinations in business prey upon the fears of small business men. That is because Government regulations give colour to the idea that fearful penalties await the small business man as soon as he begins to make worthwhile profits.
  I repeat, in my experience a lot of this fear is "phoney". It is blown up to sustain this trade in devices for trying to defeat the Revenue and so on. But there is no doubt that it exists. All too often in the industrial area where I live and which I represent people say to me and to others "There is no chance now of building up a business in the way that Jack Jones or John Smith did 20 years ago." [HON. MEMBERS: "Not Jack Jones."] There is more than one Jack Jones in this country.
  We want an atmosphere in which small business men will know that they have shelter and certain protection. Above all—here I am able to commend one or two of the Government's measures—they want to know that it is not only the business which remains small which is properly treated but that, where a small business man makes good and builds up a thoroughly successful concern to the nation's benefit, he will still—at any rate, while he is alive and for a generation to
  1730
  come—be able to reap a reasonable reward.
  There is welcome evidence that this truth has dawned upon the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and, through him, on Treasury Ministers. Item 3 in their welcome catalogue of reliefs for small businesses is a substantial capital gains relief whereby, no matter how vast the business may have grown, if it is passed on from father to son or from uncle to nephew within the family, no capital gains tax is payable. I am assured by the Inland Revenue that that can go on from generation to generation—even unto the seventieth generation—without capital gains tax liability.
  As to capital transfer tax, of which the merchants of gloom and pessimism are reminding me, there is, at any rate, a threshold which it will be our object to get increased substantially as soon as possible.
  There remains a great deal to be done for small busineses. We believe that most of these reliefs are merely a start. For instance, there is the welcome provision that if a lender to a small business—a valuable function to perform—loses all or part of his money, in future, as from this week, he will be able to set it off against any other capital gains. We believe that this should be extended so that, with certain precautions for the Revenue, a lender can set it off against any part of his income as well as against capital.
  We also believe that the stock relief puzzle for small businesses must also be solved, even if it has to be a Heath Robinson solution. It may be—I suspect that it is the case—that for large profits of trading concerns there is no logical or intellectually respectable solution to the problem of stock relief. I think that, in a truly welcome moment of panic in 1974, the Treasury produced this stock relief scheme on the back of an envelope and has not yet been able to come up with an adequate solution to make it permanent.
  That may be the fact. Big business may have to tolerate this anomaly of stock relief for years to come. But I plead that for the small business there should be some definite end to the suspense about six years of accumulated

  1731
  stock relief. I know from my own experience that, when a proprietor tries to sell a business which has a great lump of suspended taxation in its balance sheet, it is extremely difficult for him to strike a proper bargain. I repeat, some kind of solution, even if intellectually it is a bit shabby, must be provided.
  Mr. David Mitchell: In addition to the point made by the hon. Gentleman about the man who wants to sell his business, will he take on board the position of a man who wants to borrow against his stock and cannot do so when there is a tax liability against the asset that he is offering to the bank?
  Mr. Wainwright: Yes. But my experience is that the banks are getting a little more literate in understanding this element of deferred tax. Even so, I readily concede that this is another aspect of this unfortunate tangle which has come from the otherwise welcome tax relief on inflated stock.
  I express the profound hope that the work which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster started last September, and which he is still vigorously pursuing, may be put on to as permanent a basis as anything can be in politics. The Liberal Party emphatically does not want to see a Government Department for small businesses. We know that it would in any case be a very weak Department compared with the giant overlord Departments, and it would also mean more bureaucracy. That is not our purpose. But we believe that a senior Cabinet Minister—preferably with no other major portfolio—should, as a matter of constitutional convention, also be the Minister for small and new businesses so that he could range over all the seven or eight Departments of State which have a responsibility here and carry some clout in the Cabinet as the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster does. We hope that, in whatever time is left for the present Government, they will address themselves to improving the constitution in that respect.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpem): Order. Monday's final debate on the Budget will be a very crowded one. Many hon. Members will be seeking to speak. Therefore, the Chair would very much like to accommodate all the hon.
  1732
  Members who are present in the Chamber today to take part in the debate before the winding-up speeches. I have counted the number of Members who are anxious to take part, and they can be accommodated. We shall have no disappointments. However, one cannot guarantee that if they are not able to speak tonight they will be able to do so on Monday. Therefore, I appeal most sincerely for brevity.
  6.31 p.m.
  Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: I shall try to be brief. I occasionally think when I sit in this Chamber that Conservative Members live in a very different world from that in which I live. I have listened with great attention to the speeches on the Budget, but there has been astonishingly little praise of what to me is important about it, namely, that it seeks to spread and succeeds in spreading its benefits across a wide variety of ordinary people.
  The hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) has told us at considerable length of the problems of small businesses, some of which I realise are very real. He does not seem to realise that there are large sections of the population who are totally unable to write off their cars, their benefits or their perks against their business expenses. Firemen, ambulance men, nurses and those who work in the public utilities in general have undergone considerable sacrifices in the past few years and are unable to put forward the sort of tax fiddles for which the hon. Member for Colne Valley and some of his accountant friends—perhaps I should say some of his accountant acquaintances—charge a considerable amount of money when advising business men. What the hon. Member should say, and say very sincerely, is that this Budget is a positive step towards assisting those sections of the community which have been very badly hit in the past couple of years.
  I welcome strongly the public expenditure in the Budget—
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: I agree with much of what the hon. Lady has started to say. May I remind her that the small business people whom I have been talking about may enjoy some of the benefits that she has mentioned but that they cannot draw unemployment benefit? The

  1733
  self-employed person cannot declare himself unemployed, and he has great difficulty in drawing sickness benefit for any length of time.
  Mrs. Dunwoody: I realise that there are problems for people in small businesses. But the hon. Gentleman spoke as if this were the only section of the community which was facing problems. So far I have heard no commendation from him or from the Conservative Benches of the part played by the trade unions and ordinary trade unionists in maintaining a low rate of inflation. We have heard the monetarists' arguments from the Tory Benches this afternoon, but we have heard no support for the view that the Chancellor was absolutely right at long last to make an attempt to assist those who have most assisted the rest of the community.
  For that reason, I warmly welcome not simply the provision of free school milk or the fact that at long last somebody has realised that school meal prices form a very large part of the average working-class budget and that large increases in prices would simply have meant that many children would have gone back to what are called the sandwich groups and would have been left without a decent midday meal. I am also very keen to see the amount of money made available in this Budget for education being spent wisely and widely.
  In the North-West we have some frightening problems in education. We have too many old towns—towns that were flung up, if one is to be brutally honest, during the time of industrial expansion at the beginning of the nineteenth century in order to house workers so that they could contribute simply to the profit of large companies. We have lived with that industrial detritus for many years. It is obvious in the ancient school buildings, it is obvious in the tatty hospitals and it is exceedingly obvious in the utterly unacceptable level of general expenditure on public buildings. I want to see the sum of money available in the Budget spent in those areas.
  I sometimes think that we deliberately set out to programme the child who is going into the State system for the lower echelons of society. We say, in effect, "You will go into large classes. When you have come out of your primary school, you will go into an old either
  1734
  secondary modern or, if you are lucky, grammar school with, again, old buildings." When Labour-controlled councils endeavour, with the assistance of a Labour Government, to bring in a comprehensive system, the amount of money allocated by the county councils for the support of education systems is frequently not enough and is never spent in the areas in which it is most needed. That is particularly true of the North-West, as my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary is perfectly aware.
  My constituency is suffering at present from a very real problem of trying to move to a comprehensive system of education. One of the frightening things is the set of priorities that the Cheshire County Council appears to be putting forward. We should like to see some of this money spent on new schools and on providing purpose-built comprehensives which would at least allow the children in our area some hope of achieving the skills without which they will not be able to acquire jobs, because the other important thing in the Budget is the amount of money that is specifically allocated for training and retraining and particularly for expanding the amount of assistance available to the young.
  A Conservative Member said that we were in a league which consisted of countries such as Italy and Brazil and that the only thing we had not got were kidnappings and violence. He did not say that one reason why we have been able to maintain a degree of balance in our society is that it is no longer necessary for the person who is unemployed, with all the difficulties that that involves, to go entirely without any means of supporting his family. We believe in social security payments and in attempting to help the unemployed not merely to find another job but to live in the interim in a decent manner, to be able to take further training and to have assistance to seek new opportunities.
  Many of the Conservative Members who have spoken this afternoon seem to be almost harking back to the days when that was not the case. They almost seemed to be regretting that we cannot now change our society back to the time when profit was all, when money going into industry was all and when the amount of money spent through public expenditure was regarded as of necessity

  1735
  being a very minimal part of our overall budget. Therefore, I genuinely and happily welcome those parts of the Budget that relate to public expenditure.
  I hope next week to have the chance to speak in great detail about the problems of the National Health Service, which I do not believe will be solved by the injection of £50 million, but it is a real attempt to do something about the immediate and day-to-day problems. I welcome the fact that this sum has been allocated for improvements on behalf of patients. This matter is more important than anything else. Those who have studied either the existing American system of medicine or the Continental systems of insurance know that it is not possible for the average working person to be able to pay for adequate medical care. It is sometimes forgotten in this country exactly how we all benefit from that sort of expenditure.
  If the hon. Member for Colne Valley, who was talking about the need for incentives to ordinary people to keep more money in their pockets, suddenly collapsed in the Chamber—heaven forbid that he should do so—he would need an ambulance man to get him to the hospital, a porter to carry him in, a nurse—all of these supplied by the National Health Service—to look after him until the houseman came, and he would need the services of a consultant. Unless he had a source of income way above that which he receives as a Member of Parliament, the cost in straight insurance to cover that sort of medical care would be greater than he could afford if he were living in some other country. That is occasionally forgotten by some hon. Members.
  I believe that the Budget is an encouragement to the ordinary family. We have heard a great deal about the need for cuts in our general expenditure. Many one-parent families have known real poverty. Many people existing on social security payments will warmly welcome the extra sums of money, small though they may seem to us. What we have to do is to provide such people with hope for the future. My right hon. Friend has done that in his Budget. He has said that, at last, help will be given not only to the vocal pressure groups in the big business contingents, not only to those who have
  1736
  the power and the muscle to hold industry and the Government to ransom, but to those such as the pensioner, the sick and the small child, all of whom are desperately in need of our assistance. Occasionally their voice should be heard in this Chamber. I welcome this Budget and express the hope that we shall see many more of its kind.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. Paul Dean: In her opening remarks the hon. Member for Crewe (Mrs. Dunwoody) did not seem to have very much of a welcome for the measures of relief which the Chancellor announced for small businesses. One wonders which is the authentic voice on the Labour Benches, the hon. Lady's or that of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
  I very much regret that when the Secretary of State for Social Services opened the debate he began with a very inaccurate and unfair remark about the graduated pension scheme introduced in 1961 by the then Conservative Government. The right hon. Gentleman had obviously forgotten the reprimand issued in this House some years ago by no less a person than Lord Houghton, who said that it was wholly misleading to describe that pension scheme as a swindle.
  The right hon. Gentleman should have known better. He should have acknowledged that that pension scheme began the first steps towards the introduction of an earnings-related contribution, which was itself a vital first step towards ensuring that there was sufficient money available from contributions to provide for the growing number of pensioners and to make certain that there should be annual increases in pensions to cater for the level of inflation.
  It would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had acknowledged that point about the Conservative pension scheme and had gone on to acknowledge the substantial help that he received from the Conservative Opposition in drawing up an agreed pension scheme, namely, the scheme introduced earlier this month.
  A great deal has been heard, and rightly so, about the poverty trap and the deadening effect of penal rates of taxation on middle and top management. I wish to draw attention to another trap, the savings trap. I believe it to be the

  1737
  most vicious and unfair of all traps because it involves people when they are most vulnerable. It traps those who are forced to retire early owing to redundancy. It traps retired people with modest savings and it also traps those on fixed incomes who have no chance of increasing their income. This trap involves widows, the self-employed and the owners of small businesses who cannot afford planned saving for retirement because they need all their resources to finance their businesses.
  The last 13 Budgets have produced a growing number of shocked and bitter people who worked hard and saved hard and who now find themselves kicked in the teeth by the tax system. We used to be able to talk about the rewards of thrift, about the security derived from savings, about the family nest egg salted away for a rainy day or retirement. All too often after 13 Labour Budgets thrift and saving mean not reward but tax penalties. What sort of a society are we creating? What sort of message will be passed on to the next generation? In too many families now the lesson of experience is that it is a mug's game to save. It is far better to blow the lot and then to coast along on social security. What will become of family responsibility, of the moral fibre of Britain, if we allow this rake's progress to continue?
  Let me give some examples to back up my statements. The first concerns those who are forced to retire early through redundancy. There are already many of them and, alas, there will be many more in the future. A constituent of mine provides a typical example. He was forced to retire at the age of 60 after 38 years of service. He has little, if any, hope of getting another job or of increasing his income.
  As part of the settlement for my constituent's compulsory early retirement he received a lump sum payment from his pension scheme and a severance payment—a common practice these days. He invested those lump sum payments so as to receive an income for his wife and himself. The result is that he is clobbered by investment income surcharge. This man has lost his job and his earning capacity, yet he is now paying a higher rate of tax as a result of investing these payments. He is not eligible for the age allowance
  1738
  because he is under 65. Here is a saving, trap with a vengeance.
  Two things are required to be done to deal with this situation. The first is that, instead of having an age allowance at 65, there should be a retirement allowance operating from the date of genuine retirement. Second, while we have an investment income surcharge, the higher threshold for that surcharge should also apply from the age of retirement and not from the age of 65. This would also apply to women who retire at the age of 60 but who do not get the age allowance until 65.
  I realise that there would be administrative difficulties. No doubt any Treasury Minister who responds to this suggestion will draw attention to them. I put it to the Government that if we wish to see flexibility in the age of retirement—and I hope that we all wish to see that—something on these lines is required. A growing number of people are making pension arrangements which allow for some flexibility in the age of retirement, and rightly so. The tax system is hindering this.
  My second example of the savings trap concerns people over the age of 65 who are affected by the investment income surcharge. My hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. MacGregor) put up a powerful case in introducing a Ten-Minute Bill on 5th April aimed at the abolition of the surcharge. Apart from those in the public service, few people have an inflation-proof pension. A significant number of people have no pension at all, either because they have been working abroad or because they have been self-employed all their lives and have not been able to save for their retirement. In modern circumstances where is the justice in having one rate of tax for pensions as earned income and a higher rate for other income also used for retirement?
  It would not be so bad if the thresholds for the investment income surcharge were higher, but they are absurdly low. They hit people struggling on very modest incomes. There are 160,000 people hit by the surcharge who have incomes of under £4,000. What justice can there be in clobbering them? I believe that the surcharge should be abolished, but as long as it is retained I appeal to the

  1739
  Government at least to restore the threshold to its value in 1973 and to index it thereafter—which would mean putting it up to over £4,000 instead of the £2,500 suggested in the Budget.
  My third and last illustration concerns retired people with an income slightly above the supplementary benefit level. They suffer a savings trap with many heads. When their income rises, from pension or other sources, their tax rises too. I grant that these pensioners will receive some help from the reduced rate band, but many of them will still find that they are little better off because, as their income rises, so does their tax.
  Many of these people just miss the benefit of rent and rate rebates. There is no concessionary electricity for them. When these people, struggling just marginally above the supplementary benefit level, compare their lot with that of those on supplementary benefit, it is no wonder that they kick themselves for having been prudent and responsible during their working lives.
  I shall not detain the House with further examples, although there are many others. The conclusion is clear—that 13 Labour Budgets have caught a growing number of people in a vicious savings trap. This Budget gives them little relief and no hope for the future.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. David Stoddart: The Chancellor deserves congratulations on producing a responsible and relevant Budget. According to the Press, many people expected an electioneering Budget, but to his credit my right hon. Friend has refrained from the sort of give-away bonanza that not only injures the economy and well-being of the country but breeds cynicism among the electorate.
  Although the Leader of the Opposition was not lost for words on Tuesday, those she uttered were plainly irrelevant. However, I realised that she was speaking off the cuff—although she had copious notes—so I listened attentively to the Shadow Chancellor in the hope of hearing how the Conservatives would deal with our problems, what solutions they had to offer, and what their priorities were. It was a vain hope. Instead of hearing Tory policy unfolded by a deep-
  1740
  thinking potential Chancellor, we heard the same old claptrap from the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), who, rather than seeking to rise to an important occasion, chose to sink to the level of a tenth-rate comedian.
  The Tories have learned absolutely nothing in the past 25 years. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they still believe that huge reductions in tax at the top of the income scale, coupled with swingeing cuts in social services for the rest, are the measures required to get the economy moving again. It has not worked in the past and it will not work in future.
  It is no coincidence that recent history has shown that the Tory Party, on taking office, inherits a sound economy from Labour and that when it relinquishes office it leaves behind financial and economic chaos. The Labour Party, on the other hand, always inherits financial and economic chaos, which it transforms into economic and financial order. That happened in 1964, when we inherited an unbalanced Budget and a balance of payments deficit. In 1970, there was a balanced Budget—indeed, there was a net minus borrowing requirement—and a balance of payments surplus of £1,000 million per annum.
  However, by February 1974, there were an unbalanced Budget, a borrowing requirement of £5,500 million, a money supply level increasing by 28 per cent. per annum and a balance of payments deficit in the region of £3,500 million. We then sought to put the economy right by reasonable measures. As in 1970, this Government have brought order out of chaos with a balance of payments surplus and a Budget deficit which is much reduced. It is left to Labour Governments to pursue sound financial and economic policies, and long indeed, for the sake of this country, may it continue.
  However, I would warn the Chancellor against trying to obtain any sort of formalised stage 4 incomes policy. I well understand his desire to achieve some order in incomes, but he must understand that that will not be achieved by seeking to force the trade unions to accept a norm which they know will not be acceptable to their members.
  The TUC and the trade union leaders are not economic illiterates or political

  1741
  nitwits. It does no good for the Government to give the impression that they believe that the unions and their members will go berserk unless constrained by a tight, Government-imposed policy. That simply will not happen. The TUC knows the score as well as the Chancellor and, given the opportunity, will find its own means of ensuring that wage claims are reasonable and that one section does not get inordinate gains at the expense of others.
  But there are stresses and strains in industry, as the Chancellor knows. Differentials and relativities are important—as are low basic wages in some industries. In themselves they are a bad thing, but they have a secondary effect, in that they lead to high overtime working, which, in times of high unemployment, is particularly undesirable.
  The Government should recognise that we have the most responsible trade unions in the world and some of the best trade union leaders, too. They should make it clear now, therefore, that there will be no attempt to interfere with the orderly return to normal collective bargaining by the imposition of any norm or other form of control. I believe that if they do this they will find a ready and responsible answer from the TUC and all its affiliates.
  I turn to some of the measures contained in the Budget. I particularly welcome the 25 per cent. tax rate band. Indeed, I welcome it so much that I hope that in future years—perhaps even later this year—the Chancellor will build on this, perhaps to the extent that an even lower rate will become the rate at which people first enter the income tax net.
  I also welcome the increase in personal tax allowances, but I hope that considerable thought will be given in future years to personal allowances, because in many respects they do not meet the needs of modern times. They do not meet modern needs particularly in respect of the anomaly whereby a married woman loses the personal tax allowance when she leaves work and ceases to have any income of her own.
  Instead of that, I believe that she should be allowed to retain that allowance and use it against the total family income. That would be relevant and fair. It would be equitable not only as between the married woman working and the
  1742
  married woman at home, but as between men and women as well. I know that this cannot be done immediately, but I hope that it is a measure that the Chancellor will look at very closely indeed.
  Welcome, too, is the announcement that school meal charges are not to be increased in the autumn and that free school milk for all primary school children is to be reintroduced. I am particularly glad that in these two areas the Chancellor has responded to the pressure on him from my hon. Friends and myself over the last few months.
  But perhaps most of all I welcome the speeding up of the introduction of increased child benefits, because undoubtedly this will do more to relieve family poverty than anything else. Certainly in my investigations over the last few months it has come home to me very much that families with children, particularly families on an income of between £50 and £60, have done very badly indeed—so badly that they are worse off than some other disadvantaged people in our society, such as old-age pensioners. The sooner we can get the child benefit rate up to a minimum of £4·50, the better it will be. It is true that the Chancellor is not suggesting that we reach that rate next April, but between now and then I think that he can be assured that there will be further pressure on him to increase the rate to the £4·50 mark.
  I now comment on the higher rates of tax. I listened to the Shadow Chancellor and to the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Liberal Party speaking on this subject. Although I, too, have had complaints that the top rate of tax is too high, I must say that I am not over-sympathetic and I prefer to reserve my sympathy for those in our society who really deserve it.
  It would be as well, however, to examine just how top rate taxpayers will fare this year. I have done a couple of small sums. I have taken the married man earning £50,000 a year in one of them. Of course, he, like everyone else, will no doubt get his 10 per cent. increase in wages. In net terms, after paying 83 per cent. tax, this will give him £850 a year. He will also get, in addition, in tax relief from the Budget, £750—making a total of £1,600. As it happens, his increase in earnings is just £31 per week—equal to the total income of a pensioner couple.

  1743
  I do not think that people earning £50,000 will do too badly. I hope that we do not waste too much sympathy on these people, who will get an extra £31 a week, as compared with a married man earning £75 a week, who will get his 10 per cent. increase, no doubt less income tax, which equals £4·95, and tax relief of £1·82 a week added to that—making a total of £6·77.
  Therefore, the chap on £50,000 a year will get about four and a half times the relief and about four and a half times the increase in his income that the fellow on the average wage will get. The Chancellor has not done too badly by top rate taxpayers, and I hope that any further reliefs will be concentrated on the bottom end, should any come this year.
  I turn now to the question of unemployment, because this really is a serious issue not only in the large conurbations but in many other towns up and down the country. It is not only in the conurbations that redundancies occur. They also occur in my constituency. Only last week the Plessey company decided that it would make redundant some 240 people within its factories. We have these problems as well.
  Although I appreciate that the Chancellor has put some stimulus into the economy, I am not at all sure that that stimulus will be sufficient to reduce unemployment to the extent that Labour Members, anyway, require. I believe that as well as tax reliefs, it is necessary to stimulate public expenditure. All of us have our own views how one could do that, and no doubt those will be put forward. However, I have one suggestion in particular that I have been pressing on the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Social Services. It is a measure that would reduce unemployment quite substantially and quickly. That would be a reduction in the retirement age for men.
  Not only would it be equitable to have a reduction in the retirement age for men, but it would be sensible because it would immediately take quite a large number of people off the unemployment register. It may not be known, although it is a fact, that of all the people who have been unemployed for over a year, 22 per cent. are in the 60 to 65 age range, so a reduction in the retirement age would immediately
  1744
  remove them from the register. I urge the Chancellor and the Cabinet to give much more serious consideration to this question than they have done hitherto.
  According to a reply from the Secretary of State for Social Services, it would seem that if we reduced the retirement age to 64 there would be a potential reduction of 200,000 in the number of unemployed, and the cost would be as low as £65 million. That seems to me a very cheap way of reducing the number of unemployed. If people were given the opportunity to retire a year earlier, I believe that many would take it. It would also have the benefit of giving an incentive to private pension schemes to reduce the age at which their members became eligible for the private pension. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and the Cabinet as a whole will take this subject very seriously.
  Like all my colleagues, I very much welcome this Budget. It has not done all the things that all of us would like to see done. No Budget can ever achieve that. But what it has shown is that the Government recognise the social priorities and that they have put those priorities on the line and set the scene for a good future, a future which will be good for the least well off in our society and, I think, a future which bodes very well for our economy generally.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Viggers: May I say, as I follow the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), that Budget debates can sound like a dialogue of the deaf, with one side talking about increasing the gross national product and the other side talking about how benefits can best be distributed? With unemployment at 1·3 million and with the Government having created 320,000 jobs or half-jobs of varying degrees of value, showing a true or effective unemployment rate of 1·6 million, how can the hon. Gentleman really feel that it is possible to concentrate on the spending of the national product? Is it not better for us to concentrate at this point upon the earning of the national product? Those who concentrate upon that have no less compassion than those on the Labour Benches. It is a matter of considering the fabrication of the golden eggs rather than the spending of them.
  Mr. Stoddart: I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not have the impression that because those on the Labour Benches show compassion they do not have economic understanding as well. The fact is that we have every economic understanding, and we realise that productive industry, manufacturing industry, has declined over a very long period. But for the Government's intervention, many firms that are now on their feet would have collapsed and many more jobs would have been lost.
  Mr. Viggers: I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will wish me to continue this dialogue outside the Chamber, and I shall do so.
  In presenting the Budget, the Chancellor faced up to an awesome series of problems. His room for manoeuvre was limited, but the problems were principally of his own making. In my view, the first remains inflation. The Chancellor started with a bench mark that he helped to set for himself with inflation at 8·4 per cent. Admittedly that was a three-month moving average, but it set the bench mark from which inflation started moving up.
  Inflation is the most pernicious thing. It destroys savings, it eats away at the plans of retired people and it causes others to think that saving is not worth while. It is also a weapon of Socialism, because the State can protect itself against inflation whereas the individual cannot.
  Indeed, the effect of inflation in incomes is to bring more and more people into taxation and more of those who are taxed into higher taxation bands. This effect, fiscal drag, means that the State is not only protected against inflation but benefits from it. However, the Chancellor discovered that a little inflation is like a little pregnancy—it tends to grow. The effect of very high inflation hit sterling and thus magnified the inflation and damaged the country's economic standing.
  Inflation, therefore, has a crucial role. It is both the cause and effect of our economic difficulties. If it is not controlled, financial planning becomes obsolete. Financial planning in this Budget should have provided for increased investment and thus increased employment. The present level of nil growth in our industrial performance is deplorable. More people will come on to the employ-
  1746
  ment market, so increasing the level of employment.
  What do the Government propose to do to rectify this and to provide incentives? In other words, what is the Budget strategy? The background is as shown on page 9 of the Red Book, that there was no growth in the gross domestic product in 1977. Secondly, we see from the Chancellor's proposals that taxes on income will increase from £20·6 billion to £23·6 billion. Thirdly, the total Government take will increase from £38·7 billion to £42·7 billion.
  Those increases in Government take will exceed the rates of increase in prices and the rates of increase in wages. In other words, the growth of State take and State control of our finances moves yet another step inexorably forward. That is without taking into account two unusual items previously concealed. One is £600 million in company securities, which will mainly be aid to British Leyland, and the other is £550 million provided for contingency reserve. We gather that most of this is already spent. In summary, this is indeed a Socialist Budget. The champagne bubbles with which it was launched already look very flat.
  Will the Budget strategy succeed? The Chancellor is walking a tightrope. I shall make only one point on this, but it is a remarkable point which I have not seen mentioned in previous debates. It is worth quoting from page 12 of the Red Book, where paragraph 3, which lists the assumptions on which the Budget strategy is based, says:
  "The forecasts"—
  in the Budget—
  "assume that average pay increases in the year beginning in August 1978 are about half the average for the current pay round"—
  in other words, about half the average earnings increase in the past year, which was about 10 per cent., we are told elsewhere in the Red Book.
  If this 5 per cent. increase in earnings is to be achieved, how will it be achieved? Who is to make the sacrifices? Will the Armed Forces, the police, the firemen, the university teachers, the heads of nationalised industries and all those who are now frustrated and have pent-up pay demands be made to hold back still further, or will the miners, the dockers and the Ford workers stand still and see others

  1747
  who have pent-up wage demands overtake them and regain their differentials? I submit that neither will happen and that the wage increases will not be restricted to 5 per cent. This fundamental point of Budget strategy is therefore invalid.
  But my fundamental objection to the Budget is much more broad seated. The Budget fails to take proper account of the effect of North Sea oil and gas. We are used to hearing all observers talk about the effect of oil and gas revenues. They are not revenues at all. Oil and gas are minerals. They are part of the mineral resources of the United Kingdom, and in extracting them and using them we are diminishing the capital assets of the United Kingdom. We are not spending revenue.
  The Government have a bad record for confusing capital and income. The House will recall that to make up an income shortfall they sold £550 million of BP shares. That was done in order to make up their profit and loss account.
  The oil and gas reserves will last about 30 years at the present rate of extraction, dependent upon price, technical matters and other factors. About 30 years is the right period. It took a million years to develop these capital reserves of the United Kingdom and they should be reserved for premium use only. It is wrong for the oil and gas to be extracted during 30 years and to be used indiscriminately and cheaply. We are the trustees of this precious reserve and we cannot tell our children "We used those reserves. They have all gone, and now you will have to fend for yourselves." That is unacceptable.
  The benefit of the funds from North Sea oil and gas will be threefold. They will increase the gross national product, increase Government revenue and improve the balance of payments. But these improvements will be short term. What the Government's White Paper failed to say was that there would be a fourth effect: that we would use up the oil and gas during a short period.
  We must replace our energy assets and treat the oil and gas funds as a depletion of capital fund. Therefore, we should first put much more emphasis upon conservation. It is unacceptable to have a comparatively modest programme in the
  1748
  Budget. I welcome it, but it is far too modest to be realistic.
  Secondly, we must slow down the rate of depletion of our oil and gas reserves after 1982. We are committed through to 1982–83 as a result of assurances given to the House and the world in December 1974. Those assurances, of course, we must honour. Once those assurances have run out, we must reduce the rate of depletion. Thirdly, we should repay more of our overseas debt. Fourthly, we must allow a flow of sterling across the exchanges in order to diminish the appreciation of sterling and to allow investment to be built up overseas. I fully appreciate that overseas investment does not create jobs here. We must also reduce tax and increase incentives.
  We should do all those things with the oil and gas funds, particularly during the earlier years of production when we are committed to high receipts of cash. But the Chancellor is doing it the other way and is throwing away the advantage. He is spreading the borrowings, which is exactly what he should not do. He refers in his Budget Statement to a hump of Government debt amounting to $20 billion and is making fresh borrowings to push forward some of this hump. I submit that he should deal with the hump during the period of larger production through to 1982–83 and not spread it.
  One of the Chancellor's moves in spreading the hump of debt, as he calls it, is to take a further loan, through the United States bond market, of $350 million. Whether there is any connection between that and the remarkable increase of 1 per cent. in the minimum lending rate, I do not know. But the Chancellor actually boasted that he was proud that the United States bond market had granted the bond a triple-A rating. It takes the Chancellor of the Exchequer—who has finally been forced or coerced by the IMF to take sensible measures—to boast about a triple-A rating. After all, he is only saying that after four years he has finally been coerced by the IMF to getting Britain's credit rating back to a level comparable with that of Venezuela, Finland and the city of Oslo.
  7.22 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Hooley: This month the Labour Government have

  1749
  introduced three changes of major importance in the social benefits and tax system of this country. The first is the national superannuation scheme, which Dick Crossman forecast 20 years ago and which has been described—quite rightly, I believe—as the second major advance in our social security system since the creation of the National Health Service. The second is the child benefit scheme, now coming to full fruition. It is an enormously important and valuable move forward in our system of family support. The third—as has been pointed out, it is not new, but it is nevertheless important—is the introduction of the reduced tax band on the first tranche of taxable income.
  Those are three important structural changes, because they give us the opportunity in future years to make much more sensible adjustments, I believe, in pensions, family support, tax rates, and so forth, than have been possible with the existing system. I think it is a great tribute to the Government that, at a time of world recession, when there are great economic difficulties, it has been possible to bring to fruition these very important changes.
  I turn to a point mentioned by the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) concerning the fundamental problem of our industrial economy. I thought that some of his points were quite fair. I am particularly concerned about industrial investment. The main characteristic of our economy, unfortunately, is that the percentage of our national wealth devoted to industrial investment is significantly lower than the percentage devoted by some of our major industrial competitors.
  The House of Commons Library has kindly provided me with some figures for the five years 1972 to 1976. On those figures, industrial investment in this country has varied in that period from 15·6 per cent. to 17·4 per cent. of our gross national product. In France, the variation has been from 20·3 per cent. to 21·8 per cent. In Germany, the figures in recent years seem to be somewhat odd, but the variation is from nearly 17 per cent. to nearly 23 per cent. In Japan, the variation is from 21·7 per cent. in 1975—I am not quite clear why it was so low in that year—to 29 per cent. in 1973.
  1750
  There are no doubt special explanations for the variations year by year, but the characteristic is that this country over the years—I believe that it goes much further back than the early 1970s—has not spent a sufficient amount of its national wealth on industrial investment. Until we get that right, we shall have continuing trouble, I believe, in managing our general economy.
  In this context I was rather astonished by one part of my right hon. Friend's speech. We do not have an Official Report and therefore I shall have to quote from the official handout. He said:
  "A major purpose of this Budget is to adjust taxation so as to help and improve our industrial performance."
  Fair enough. He went on to say:
  "I have therefore decided again to make no major changes this year in the rate of corporation tax or in the levels of investment incentives."—[Official Report, 11th April 1978; Vol. 947, c. 1200–01.]
  I find that rather odd. It may well be—
  Mr. John Watkinson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I believe that the thinking behind the Chancellor's strategy is that the motivation for business men to invest in this country is now considered to be dependent upon the level of demand in the economy. The view that the Chancellor has taken—I think correctly—is that he needs to stimulate demand and that we need to keep this stimulation moving forward not just for one or two years but for at least three years. Unfortunately, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, business managers in this country are very reluctant to invest, but the investment strategy in the Budget is linked to tax cuts because the Chancellor wishes to increase demand or to boost investment.
  Mr. Hooley: The weakness of that argument was very well stated by the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), when he made an absolutely scathing denunciation of private enterprise in this country. He pointed out that every possible incentive had been given to private enterprise to invest and that the investment did not come. I cannot recall the right hon. Gentleman's exact phrase, but it is certainly written

  1751
  into the archives of this place and economic comment generally.
  Before my hon. Friend intervened, I was coming to the point that the Chancellor may defend himself on the ground that he has given various incentives to small business. The problem about that is that there is no guarantee whatever that small business men will not simply take the various concessions which have been offered and plough along cheerfully with the plans they have made anyway for 1978–79. There is no guarantee at all that the concessions on transfer tax and the various other things for small business will produce any extra investment.
  I have no hostility to small business. I am connected with two major industrial towns, my home town of Birmingham and the city I represent, Sheffield, where people still talk about the "little mesters". The small business man has a contribution to make and makes an important contribution to our economy, but I am really doubtful about whether we shall achieve a sufficient level of industrial investment simply by patting people on the back and giving some incentives to small business men. There is no reason, as I have already said, why the small business man should not simply accept these nice concessions and make no alteration whatever to his plans.
  I have a second reason for being doubtful, and it is more fundamental than the first. There is no doubt that in engineering, for example, small business is dependent on the major investment decisions and other decisions of the big businesses. The small businesses supply the nuts and bolts, the washers and gauges, and so on, but, however, much we may want them to help in getting the economy going, the fact is that if the big man does not move, as likely as not the small man will not be able to move either.
  Although I am not hostile to what the Chancellor has tried to do in this respect, I doubt that that particular tactic or or technique will produce any significant expansion of industrial development, which is what we should like to see.
  I agree with the hon, Member for Gosport that a major investment in alternative energy sources, in insulation, and in energy conservation could have given a
  1752
  boost to business, investment and jobs and could have been the first stage of the necessary calculation about our future energy requirements which we have to balance against the eventual depletion of oil and natural gas.
  In this connection the Chancellor could have recognised the great importance of the international energy equation—after all, President Carter and our own Prime Minister have been talking about it—and done something about it, thereby stimulating investment and stimulating our own industrial efficiency. I am rather sorry that he has not devoted more public expenditure to energy matters. To be fair, he made a token move with regard to insulation grants, but I am sorry that he did not do more for the reasons that I have just given.
  I also believe that he could have made more capital available to the public corporations. In shipbuilding, aerospace, steel, coal, electricity, nuclear power and all the rest we now have a vast range of manufacturing and technological expertise. This should be used and backed by public investment to improve our industrial capacity, industrial techniques and exports. I do not believe that the public corporations have yet taken advantage of international markets on a scale which they might do.
  I am also concerned about unemployment. To some extent this is related to investment in new industry and in new industrial techniques. In the pattern of this Budget I cannot see a serious reduction in the level of unemployment. I pay tribute to what the Manpower Services Commission is doing and proposes to do. I think of the great scheme devised by Mr. Holland which will be carried through by the Manpower Services Commission. I believe that this scheme of training, job opportunities and so forth is enormously important. It is the most ambitious in Western Europe if not in the world. It has my wholehearted support.
  What I am afraid of is that that scheme will simply hold unemployment at 1·8 million instead of bringing it down to a very much lower figure which I and every hon. Member would wish to see. I do not see measures in this Budget which will cut into this appalling unemployment problem, particularly the problem of

  1753
  unemployed youth, on a scale that I want to see.
  I do not quite understand the mystique about PSBR, borrowing requirements and so on, but I am prepared to face the argument that somewhere along the line if one wants to spend large sums of public money probably one has to raise it unless one prints it, and there are certain dangers in that. I would have had no hesitation in maintaining the real price of alcohol and tobacco—not necessarily increasing it—by extra taxation. It is a complete nonsense to argue that the real cost of these two highly dangerous drugs—which cost this country probably thousands of millions of pounds in their demands on the health, social, prison and police services of this country—should not be maintained by additional taxation.
  Mrs. Margaret Bain: I would not attack the hon. Gentleman's basic premise of raising taxation on those two commodities. However, is he aware that the increase in duty on the whisky industry has lost the Government £28 million in the first nine months of this financial year and has caused severe unemployment in Scotland? At some stage there must be a cut-off point for these industries because of the employment aspects.
  Mr. Hooley: There may be a cut-off point at some stage, but we have a long way to go on whisky. I have no hesitation in suggesting that money could have been raised on these two particularly dangerous drugs and spent to promote useful industrial investment.
  The question of petrol is rather more difficult. It is a bit absurd that in real terms the price of petrol at the moment is lower than it was before the oil crisis. That is a fantastic situation. I accept that my right hon. Friend is probably up against the idiotic and childish antics of the Liberal Party on this issue and that if we tried to push the price up again we would have the same idiocy from the Liberal Bench as we had last year. There may be a political constraint in that respect. However, I believe there would have been a case for some modest increase in pertol duty.
  Finally, I want to mention overseas aid. It is now becoming common thinking in international gatherings—we have
  1754
  heard it said by our own Prime Minister, the President of the United States and other Heads of Government—that part of the solution to the economic difficulties of the Western world lies in an increased flow of resources to the Third world. There are various ways in which this can be achieved—for example, the promotion of trade and commodity agreements. It would be quite wrong to go into all the details in this kind of debate.
  But I think that the Chancellor might have made a modest bow in the direction of this problem by making at least a small increase in our overseas aid commitment and some evidence that we were moving towards the international target of 0·7 per cent. aid. I should also have liked to see some evidence that he was restoring the rather damaging cut of £100 million which he made some time ago. I would have regarded that as justified and welcome.
  I share the view of many of my hon. Friends that in many ways this is an extremely useful social Budget. I should have liked something more ambitious in an economic and expansionary sense. I believe that we need to go much further in tackling the fundamental problem of the modernisation of our industry and industrial investment. But, on the whole, I believe that my right hon. Friend has done a reasonable job, and I commend what he has attempted to achieve.
  7.37 p.m.
  Mr. Edward du Cann: Before commenting on the very wise, commonsense points which the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) has made, I wish, in deference to your admonition, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to comment on only one of the Chancellor's detailed measures—his proposals to encourage profit sharing. These I warmly commend—as does the Conservative Party—but with one caveat.
  It will be within the knowledge of the House that I have devoted much of my commercial life to the development—indeed, the pioneering—of ideas to facilitate a wider participation in industry by the broad mass of our people—for example, through unit trusts, equity-linked life assurance and profit-sharing schemes.
  I must declare an interest as a director of a company which has such a

  1755
  scheme and as a chairman of a life assurance company. Out of that experience I wish to make one recommendation to the Chancellor and to the House. The personal circumstances, the needs and, indeed, the prejudices of individuals vary greatly, and so do the circumstances of different companies in differing industries with differing trading circumstances. It is unlikely in the extreme that any one scheme, or any one type of scheme, for share ownership, profit sharing and co-partnership in any form will be perfect in every case.
  If the Chancellor, with the support of the Conservatives, really wishes to encourage profit sharing on a substantial scale and if he is sincere—alas, there are doubts about that—the quickest way to success would be for him to do two things which are complementary. He should make an analysis of the situation. He should then remove the disabilities, because many disabilities interfere with the development of this process. Some have come about accidentally and some are quite deliberate.
  The Chancellor could do worse, as I am sure the Minister of State will acknowledge, than to study the memorandum submitted by the Wider Share Ownership Committee, of which I have the honour to be an officer, or to read some of the writings of Dr. Copeman. If he were to make an analysis and take away the handicaps and the disabilities, he would thereby promote a variety of schemes. The House will judge his sincerity and that of his party by the progress which is made with regard to these matters. The potential is enormous, as the savings figures currently show.
  What a splendid speech that was of my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) and what a devastating indictment he produced of the Government's policy towards savings. That is why there is some cynicism about the real intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in that sense I put this challenge to him.
  But the gains would not only be for the individual families who are helped to save through profit sharing. They could be much greater for the economy in promoting a greater understanding of industry, identity of interest and harmony
  1756
  within industry in general, and that is a great prize to attempt to secure.
  To come to the general, I found the Budget disappointing—indeed, uninspiring—and for three reasons. The first is that complexity is inevitable in any modern society. This is the thirteenth Budget of the present Chancellor that we are discussing, and the House is now threatened with a fourteenth within a quarter. Like almost all the others, this Budget contains far too much detail. If the present Chancellor is anything, he is a tinkerer. Of course, one agrees with and may even commend some of his measures, but, overall, I believe that the nation is now impatient of the fussiness and pernicketiness which are the chief characteristics of our tax system. It is time for reform on a broad scale.
  Parliament abuses the tax system. It is used not only for its real purpose, which is to gather revenue, but too much now for social purposes. In consequence it is often unclear, as the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) pointed out. It is not always fair and, as Sir William Pile, chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, pointed out in his evidence to the Public Accounts Committee only a few weeks ago, compared with other systems throughout the world it is vastly expensive.
  Witness how the Inland Revenue staff has grown in recent years. In 1939 the Inland Revenue employed 25,000 people. By 1945, perhaps inevitably after the war, the figure had grown to 43,000. Between 1966 and 1970, a period of Labour Government, be it noted, it grew by a further 9,000. Between 1974 and this year of grace 1978, it grew by a further 16,000. So, in 1978, as Sir William Pile said again in evidence to the PAC a few weeks ago,
  "The figure for the number employed by the Revenue will be twice the figure for 1945—86,000."
  Mr. Bulmer: I am sure it will not have escaped my right hon. Friend's notice that there are more tax gatherers employed in this country now than sailors. As the Prime Minister has had active experience in both those activities, this may be recognised as a fair reflection of Government policy.
  Mr. du Cann: That is a very fair point.
  Mr. Viggers: It is very appropriate that there should be more people in the Inland Revenue than in the Royal Navy. Despite the distinguished record of the Royal Navy, the Inland Revenue has done more to keep people from this country.
  Mr. du Cann: In response to that second amusing intervention, I might say that I regard the first duty of any Government as being to attend properly to the security of our fellow citizens. Whether we look at the situation in terms of overseas defence or internal security, the chief indictment of this Government is that they are not doing that at present.
  However, I have, and I dare say many other hon. Members will have, total sympathy with Mr. Christopher and his colleagues when they protest at being overworked and say that there are too many changes in taxation. I am sure that the House will endorse the plan which the chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue has described to computerise PAYE, but it is high time that we re-examined our tax system with a view to providing stability and a real simplification and with the intention of abolishing many forms of detailed tax.
  My second complaint, which I also make with the utmost seriousness, is that the Chancellor's speech confirmed a trend to which I have the most profound objection, namely, that so many matters of economic management are decided outside Parliament rather than inside it.
  It is an old principle, supposedly inviolate, that the granting of public money and the imposing of taxation is the function of Parliament and not of the Sovereign or the Government. After all, this rule was the bone of contention between Parliament and the King over many centuries, of which the last example was the Civil War. We Members of Parliament, the supposed guardians of democracy and the inheritors of our national traditions, have carelessly allowed the rule to lapse.
  It is not necessary to take my word for that. There is a Penguin book entitled "The House of Commons at Work" written by one of our distinguished Clerks. With all his experience and that clarity of view which is the characteris-
  1758
  tic of that service which serves this House so brilliantly, he said:
  "Control of expenditure in a direct sense hardly belongs to the House of Commons any more."
  I also quote Professor Ramsay Muir. He put the matter rather more starkly:
  "The power of the purse is supposed to be the main source of authority of the House of Commons. It is wholly unreal. There is no parliamentary counrty in which Parliament has less power over finance than in Britain."
  I give one example of what I have in mind. The Chancellor made a shorter speech than usual. Of course he cannot mention everything, and one does not expect him to do so, but one omission which the House should resent is that he spent no time in discussing the cash limits for the current year. A separate White Paper is published, accompanied by a Press handout. I quote a couple of sentences from the Press handout:
  "This is the third year of extensive control through cash limits … This year they will again apply to about two-thirds of Voted expenditure. Cash limits have made a useful contribution to improving financial control."
  I ask the House to note that this is the third year of their operation. They have never been discussed in this House in the aggregate although, as the handout says, they cover two-thirds of voted expenditure. They have never been discussed, either, in the particular. Not one of the 122 separate limits in that White Paper has ever been debated in this House.
  The system itself has never been approved by Parliament. It is true that it has been examined on behalf of the House by the Select Committee on Expenditure and by the Public Accounts Committee, but never have the Government found time for our reports to be debated on their own.
  Ministers and the Civil Service decide in private such matters as what proportion of the gross national produce should be spent by the private sector and what proportion should be spent by the public sector. They decide in private the absolute figures to be spent on this service or that. Parliament is not consulted. Parliament is simply informed after the event. This is the modern scene in the United Kingdom in this Mother of Parliaments. With such contempt is democracy treated.
  I turn to another matter referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers). Of these figures of Government expenditure by far the largest

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  constituent is pay. I am sure that the Minister of State will confirm that it represents 50 per cent. of the total bill. We have heard nothing from the Chancellor about his assumptions on which these figures, which are supposed to be inviolate and so important a form of control, are based. I thought it shocking, when the Prime Minister was answering Questions earlier today, that he refused even to answer a question on the subject. Is this House to be denied all discussion of and all power of decision over matters which are of the most fundamental importance to our fellow citizens?
  Some of us are determined to improve the way in which Parliament considers our national finances. We shall try to introduce ways of restoring and enhancing proper parliamentary control of expenditure. We have made some progress. I welcome the assurances given in paragraph 5 of the White Paper that there will be consultations with the Expenditure Committee and the Public Accounts Committee on the development of this particular form of control. I hope that the two Committees can operate together. Indeed, in the Public Accounts Committee we have put forward proposals for doing just that.
  My own position is that I would not have it said of me at any time that I, as a Member of Parliament, was unaware of or untrue to the great heritage won by our ancestors in regard to parliamentary sovereignty over the Executive.
  My third complaint about the Budget is that the Chancellor made so little reference to the world economic scene. We are in a situation of deep and prolonged recession, and that situation is deteriorating. Nothing can obviate the need for us to be efficient in the United Kingdom, but it is urgent that international action should be taken to ameliorate the dangers of the present situation and to enable us to plan ahead constructively.
  I would describe the characteristics of the present malaise as these. First, there is under-utilisation of capacity, not only in this country. Figures for the OECD countries show that within these countries there are 16 million people out of work. Secondly, there is continuing high inflation. We may not be as bad as some countries, but it is appalling to think that the value of our money at present rates
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  will be halved in eight years. The third characteristic is the total failure of Governments to develop effective energy policies to deal with the oil price rises in 1973–74. Fourthly, there is over-reliance upon the United States dollar as the only effective international currency.
  The fifth characteristic is the huge amounts of international mobile funds, not only the Eurodollar but the moneys generated by the oil-producing countries. I have nothing but contempt for the way in which large amounts of oil revenues are dissipated by those who earn them, in ways that we in the United Kingdom would regard as deplorable.
  The sixth problem is the wide fluctuations in the exchange rates which inhibit confidence, make the investment prospects uncertain and prevent the growth of world trade. The seventh is the emergence of the super-low cost producers who compete with the traditional industrial countries. Their work has powerful effects in destroying whole industries such as textiles, steel, shipbuilding and electronics. Generally speaking I am an opponent of protectionism, but I believe that we must be ready to protect our industries against this form of competition where necessary.
  All these factors are significant in themselves but in the aggregate they constitute a crisis of severe proportions—and it is a worsening crisis.
  Whatever divides us in the House of Commons—and the issues that divide us are great—we have a common interest in the welfare and prosperity of our people and of mankind. During a recent visit by the British-American parliamentary group to the United States, I thought it right to support the Prime Minister's initiative in this regard. I congratulate him warmly. His initiative is all the more necessary when it is made in the United States because, alas, that country lacks an effective President at present. I think that the Prime Minister's five points—the encouragement of growth, the conservation of energy, currency stability, success in the current multilateral trade negotiations and the locomotive proposals—are absolutely right.
  How right the hon. Member for Heeley was to say that there are other items to be added to the list. It is essential that the oil revenues be well used. We are

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  lucky to have oil revenues to modernise our industry to the maximum extent. We must understand how necessary it is to do everything possible to try to find new markets in the world for our goods. That is why I was so much against our entering the EEC, much to the irritation and despair of some of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I thought I was right at the time and I still do.
  I must emphasise that the bus stops here. Whatever the need for concerted and determined international action, nothing absolves us in the United Kingdom from the crucial need to have our own economic house in good order. I am critical of the Budget because it makes too little contribution to that aim. In that regard it is nothing but a lost opportunity.
  Maybe the Chancellor is too stale and should be replaced by someone with fresh ideas and new vigour. I would have held that opinion even if the Chancellor announced twice the amount of reliefs to families, old people, farmers, small businesses and working people. I would be the opponent of any Chancellor, irrespective of party, who would not move towards the restoration of better parliamentary control of our finances. His record in this regard is deplorable.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. David Mitchell: I make no apology for concentrating on the Budget's proposals on small businesses. I welcome the good will shown to small businesses. I hope profoundly that that good will is more than election-deep. I welcome the growing area of consensus because the business community—large and small—needs greater stability to plan ahead and to arrange its finance ahead and take on long-term employment plans. The House is right to develop a consensus in this area because small businesses provide the greatest single opportunity for creating new jobs and reducing the appalling level of unemployment over the next few years.
  I welcome particularly the work being done by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. However, in this respect the Government are very much like a battered old Swiss weather clock that I have at home. It has two faces, one for fine weather, which looks remarkably like the smiling face of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and one for wet
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  weather—a scowling face—which is rather like the Minister at the Department of Industry who has responsibility for small businesses. The Government have these two faces and when the weather changes a different face comes out. That is very worrying for small businesses.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster held a Press conference yesterday in which he talked grandly about the things that he wants to do for small businesses. He has attended the CBI small firms council and has gone round the country seeking to restore confidence to the small business world. Small business would like very much to believe that that was the true picture.
  Then we have the Tribunites—the people who will choose the real policies of the next Labour Government. This is where the question of stability and the ongoing consensus is important. If there should be a Labour Government after the next General Election, Tribunite policies will point to a wealth tax, to 98 per cent. of the investment income as a top tax rate, to a continuation of 83 per cent. of tax on earned incomes, to more intervention by the Government and to the condemnation of profits and of the whole capitalist system.
  It is against that background that one cannot help understanding the worries and the concern of the business community, and more particularly the small business community, which asks "Is there stability, is there consensus, is there an agreed way ahead?" In other words, is it to take the words and aspirations of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, or the words and the aspirations of the Tribune group?
  The condemnation of this Budget is that, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer has recognised the need to change the climate, he has totally failed to take steps to bring about that change. I wish to spell out the changes that are needed to revitalise the small business sector. I wish also to examine the opportunities which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has failed to grasp and to ask hon. Members to consider whether collectively in Committee on the Finance Bill we can bring about the necessary changes.
  I wish to spell out these four changes which I have arrived at following meetings throughout the country which the

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  Small Business Bureau has held, involving thousands of members, ranging from those in the North of Scotland to those in the tip of Cornwall. Those members continually write to the bureau outlining the problems which are holding back the growth of their businesses. I make these suggestions purely in terms of the financial areas which I believe could and should have been put right in the Budget.
  The first need is to restore incentive to the entrepreneur, and that means changes in direct taxation. Secondly, there is the need to enable the small firm to make and retain profits for growth and expansion. Thirdly, there is the need to bring back the private backer. I am delighted that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster recognised that need. I am only sorry that among the items contained in the Budget there is little to bring that to life. The fourth need is to remove the most damaging of all threats which is held over the small business sector, the threat of wealth tax.
  Let me put forward some practical suggestions to deal with those four needs. Let me first take the subject of incentives. I was delighted to see that the Chancellor has given help to those who start up a business and later make losses. This puts the problem in a nutshell. The present Government are the greatest expert of any Government at any time in this country on businesses that make losses. They have more of them under their control and they have sustained more losses in the nationalised industries and in firms taken over by the National Enterprise Board than has happened, I suppose, any where else in the world.
  But people do not start out in business with the purpose of making losses. I am delighted to see that they will be able to rake back tax which they have paid in the past in order to cover losses. But we must create a wholly different climate in which people see it as worth while to set out in business to make a profit. It is desperately unfortunate that they are missing that opportunity. Those who start in business should aim for success. They should aim for the stars. But what are the stars? We all know that the stars comprise a tax of 83 per cent. Who will set out to aim for that?
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  Until the rates of tax are changed in the Budget, we shall not see the climate that we need. We need to adopt the top rates that operate in Europe, rates of between 50 per cent. and 60 per cent. Only then shall we change the climate and make people want to set out to achieve the stars. But we shall not do that under the existing system.
  Secondly, I turn to the need for small firms to retain profits for expansion. Let me divide firms into sole traders and partnerships and companies. Sole traders and partnerships require more money because of inflation and more money still if they are to expand. Yet all the retentions made by the sole trader and partnership have to bear tax at the rate of tax of the partners. That means a tax of up to 83 per cent.
  Let us examine the practical effects of this situation. I was talking to a small business man last week and he showed me a cheque stub. He said "That was a cheque I had to make out to the Inland Revenue in respect of tax on the business. We made £20,000 profit and the tax amounted to £16,000."
  Mr. Denzil Davies: What line of business did that gentleman follow if he was making that kind of profit without incorporating himself?
  Mr. Mitchell: I met so many business men at that meeting I am not sure which trade he was in, but I shall write to the Minister, if that will help him, and give him the details.
  Mr. Donald Anderson: He was probably a lawyer.
  Mr. Mitchell: I assure the hon. Gentleman that he was not a lawyer. I am trying to make some practical suggestions and I hope that the Minister will consider them. I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should allow such businesses to accumulate funds for retention within the business for business growth and expansion at a lower rate of tax than the tax payable by the partners who are running the business.
  I wish now to deal with the situation as it affects companies. There is a direct link between the tax and the funds available for expansion of the business. I welcome the changes in stock relief. But why are the Government being so

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  laggardly? Why will it be six years before the relief comes through?
  One of the most difficult things about small business and the tax concessions, such as stock relief, is that the sophisticated business can operate in such a way that it does not pay corporation tax at all. It is the less sophisticated business—generally the small business—that does not know how to operate in that way. I have heard of country accountants who even suggest to their clients that they should not claim stock relief even though they are eligible for it. Again, I can give examples if they are wanted.
  I suggest that it would make a practical contribution to the position if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the option to have a lower rate of corporation tax that is based upon not drawing the first year investment allowances, not drawing stock relief or a whole range of other items. The small business that did not draw those items would have a composite lower rate of corporation tax and would know that that was the basis on which the system worked. There is an enormous number of unsophisticated small businesses which would take that option, and as a result more money would be left in those businesses to enable them to grow.
  Let me turn to the definition of a small business. I particularly welcome the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has increased the definition for corporation tax purposes from profits pre-tax of £40,000 to a figure of £50,000. But the logic of the position involves a far higher figure than that. The reason that the lower rate has been introduced is that such companies are not able to raise expansion capital on the Stock Exchange, they cannot talk on equal terms with the major financial institutions and they have to finance themselves out of ploughing money. The size of company which fits those criteria is much larger than those covered by the present concession. I suggest that the figure should be taken substantially higher.
  It is proposed to give the Development Commission £20 million, part of which will be spent on the coast line, and I have no comment on that, but part of which will be spent on building factories for COSIRA and other small business users. The Government are spending public money to do what private enter-
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  prise and private investors would be prepared to do if the Chancellor provided the same tax concessions for factory building as he does for the machinery and equipment to go in the factories.
  In this area of the ability of businesses to retain the money that they need for expansion there is the acute problem of how they are to accumulate sufficient funds to replace equipment when the historic cost of the old equipment has been allowed to be written off. This is an important problem in terms of the ability of businesses to keep themselves modern and to be able to compete, in terms of modern equipment, with the enormously high cost of new equipment. A business man told me the other day that he was given a tax allowance for a vehicle that cost £17,500, but the replacement vehicle would cost £54,000 and his problem was where he could accumulate the funds to meet the difference between those costs. I suggest that there should be depreciation at replacement cost rather than at historic cost.
  There are many things that I should like to say about VAT, but I do not wish to trespass on the time of the House any more than is necessary to cover the major issues where small businesses need more attention from the Chancellor.
  I am at one with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in saying that we need changes in the areas where private backers operate. The risks involved for small businesses starting up, particularly the technologically advanced businesses, are as great as the risk of backing horses and we cannot expect institutional funds and those acting as trustees for other people to invest in as risky an item as that. We need a change so that the private backer can be brought back to help various small business enterprises.
  Public policy picks out, for example, the gilt-edged market as having tax preference for those who invest in it. There is no capital gains tax on gilts. Pensions and life assurance are picked out for preferential treatment. More attention should be given to whether there are ways of extending the same preferential treatment to those who invest in small businesses. The French Government are examining a scheme to allow private individuals who subscribe to new equity issues and invest in small businesses to have their income tax bill reduced by the

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  amount of money they have invested. That is an interesting idea that the Government should consider.
  The Government have gone a little way. They are to allow losses on loans to be offset against capital gains tax. But we must cater not just for those who make losses. We must restore incentives to those who are setting out to make profits. For the private backer taced with the prospect of getting £2 of every £100 of his dividend income there is no incentive to go into this area.
  The other essential that the Government must seek to carry as a consensus in the House is an undertaking to withdraw the threat of a wealth tax. Without that undertaking we shall not see the change in climate which is necessary if people are to start and expand small businesses. Without that undertaking, people will see themselves as being fattened up for the slaughter—and who sets out to build anything in the knowledge that if he makes a success of it, it is a dead cert that he will be slaughtered?
  I believe that a spoof is being practised on the House, the country and the business community by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. The Daily Mail today reports that at his Press conference yesterday the right hon. Gentleman said that there would be no wealth tax. But, if we look further, we see that this is only his personal view and that, although this Government are not planning a wealth tax, the Cabinet is examining the prospect of having such a tax after the next General Election. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster says that he would be strongly opposed to a wealth tax on top of existing taxation, but the truth is that the threat is there and, despite the headlines, the Chancellor is committed to nothing more than a personal view and it is a cruel deception to try to persuade people otherwise.
  Small business men are generally canny enough to know that a wealth tax is still a major part of the policy thinking of the Labour Party. Eire has abandoned proposals for a wealth tax because of the way it was damaging jobs and the growth of businesses. Our Government would be wise to give that undertaking as well. The touchstone of the sincerity of the Government's desire to see small businesses
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  create more jobs is whether they will abandon for at least 10 years any possibility of introducing a wealth tax. If they do that and bring down the rates of tax from which we suffer, they will change the business climate and people will decide to set up in business. Small businesses will grow and create new jobs. But none of this will happen if we do not have a change in the business climate.
  I bitterly regret that, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone a welcome little way on the road to dealing with some of the technicalities affecting small businesses, the tragedy is that the Budget fails to grasp the opportunity to do something that would really change the business climate.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We must have brevity if we are to accommodate all the hon. Members who are anxious to take part in the debate before the wind-up speeches.
  8.18 p.m.
  Mrs. Audrey Wise: The real danger facing small businesses—as usual—is the danger of being swallowed up by huge businesses or being ruined by decisions of huge businesses, such as transferring important production abroad. One of the best contributions that could be made to the health of small businesses would be for large businesses to pay their bills to small businesses more rapidly.
  I do not think that I need to spend much time on the speech of the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Mitchell), but the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) made some interesting remarks about the need for more parliamentary control in financial matters. I certainly believe in more parliamentary control in financial matters, though I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman and I differ in how we would seek to exercise that control and the purposes for which we wish to have it. It is important that Back Benchers should effectively control the Executive, and, in relation to Finance Bills, I think that I have made some little contribution towards that principle.
  However, it is not simply a matter of Parliament versus Government. There are real party divisions, and Labour Back

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  Benchers see the sort of control and influence that we seek to exert on the Executive from a Labour point of view. No doubt the Opposition would wish to exert control from exactly the opposite point of view. There is no consensus on this matter.
  I am exceedingly pleased that, in relation to the sections of the Budget that will appear in the Finance Bill, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has listened to the voices of the Labour movement. It is not necessary this year for Labour Back Benchers to feel that they must be in conflict with the Chancellor on the Finance Bill. Several important arguments have been won, notably the argument that the essential tax concessions that the Chancellor should make are those devoted to relieving the pressing needs of the low-paid and the average-paid. That demand the Chancellor has met.
  Unlike last year's Budget, this is a Budget designed to help ordinary workers, especially low-paid workers. It delights me that those on incomes of £50 a week will do well out of the Budget. I think that the Chancellor has been wise. I think that he has been correct. It is clear that he has listened to the voice of the Labour movement. It is always pleasing as a Back Bencher to be able to congratulate one's Front Bench with sincerity.
  The sort of thing that pleases me is that an elderly couple will now have a tax threshold of approximately £40 a week. That is an admirable advance: I am surprised that the Opposition have been too churlish to recognise that elderly people on incomes of £4,000 a year, which is considerably above the tax threshold, will be those who in cash terms do amongst the best out of the Budget. Elderly people with an income of £4,000 will be gaining £188. I am glad that that is so. There is merit in the argument that, if people have managed to set aside enough to have some comfort in their retirement years, their saving should be acknowledged. It pleases me that the elderly with incomes which are considerably above the rate of the basic pension will do well out of the Budget.
  I shall not labour the points that have been made about the benefits accruing to families, although they are exceedingly important. The advance of child benefit
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  is of great importance. However, it is ironical that it was far easier for Chancellors to increase child tax allowances than it is for Chancellors now to increase child benefit. In real effect, child tax allowances and child benefit are similar except that child benefit is or should be better than child tax allowances.
  So it still worries me that the accounting conventions of the Treasury are such that increases in child benefit count as increases in public expenditure, whereas that constraint did not apply to increases in child tax allowances. I hope that we shall not be lulled into a sense of security, which might be false, because we have made an advance in child benefit in this Budget. Until it is fully accepted that increases in child benefit should be regarded in the same way as increases in child tax allowances used to be regarded, this important benefit will always be in danger of lagging behind. I welcome the advance but I feel the need to sound that word of warning.
  A good deal of public expenditure is not spending by the Government but is private expenditure in the sense that it is about the transfer of income from certain individuals to other individuals who will then spend that income as they wish. That applies to child benefit and pension income. Those who seek to use the global figure of public expenditure as though it means that every decision about how that sum is spent is made in Whitehall are engaging in dishonest practice. Pensioners make their individual decisions about the spending of their pensions. It is counted as public expenditure, but in essence it is private expenditure. That should not be overlooked. In these matters there is a good deal of exceedingly dishonest argument.
  The whole House should welcome the advance being made in the realm of pensions. The debate was opened by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, and no doubt he is pleased at the increase being made in expenditure on health and in some other directions where decisions are made by public authorities, they being either the Government or local authorities. Labour Members must defend vigorously that sort of expenditure. It is just as much a part of our standard of living to have an adequate health service as it is to have enough money to buy food or pay

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  the rent or mortgage. It is just as important for the standard of living of our population.
  If we are honest as Members of Parliament, we must admit that our postbags reflect that every day. We all receive constant requests, suggestions and views from our constituents which imply strongly that people want more expenditure and not less on health, education and other such matters. We on the Labour Benches need to be bold in expressing that view.
  Having said that there will be a good Finance Bill arising from the Budget, which my colleagues and I will wholeheartedly support, I briefly make reference to one feature which is disappointing—namely, the element of the Budget strategy relating to employment. It shows rather too much reliance by the Chancellor on the view that, if demand increases, job opportunities will automatically be created. Increased demand will not necessarily result in correct production and management decisions being made to meet that demand.
  It is necessary that the Government should be prepared to respond positively to the plans that are being made by working people for the enlargement of production in useful ways. I am pleased that there has been some acknowledgment of that indirectly in the Budget. I say that because I think that the specific demand of workers in Lucas Aerospace to be able to make more kidney machines is being met. I hope that that is not accidental. I hope it is a timid beginning towards the sort of initiative which needs to be taken.
  Enormous reservoirs of talent exist in our working people, and it is they who need the incentive and encouragement to develop their ideas. This is an area in which the Government need to develop in a more Socialist and more hopeful direction, but I trust that the advance in the Government's thinking which we see in the Budget will shortly be followed by greater initiatives on these other aspects that I have mentioned.
  I am pleased to feel that I shall be able to commend the Finance Bill wholeheartedly and join Ministers in defending it against the despicable attacks which will undoubtedly come from all sections of the Opposition.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer: Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), I wish to address myself to the subject of profit sharing. I associate myself with his wise remarks and advice to the Government to maintain flexibility of approach in so far as that is possible. But, like him, I am a little uncertain how far the Government are prepared to commit themselves to profit sharing in the long term. Last summer, when I asked the Chief Secretary what plans he had to encourage the extension of profit sharing in industry, he replied "None". When I asked "Why not?", he said that he was still thinking about it.
  It is no secret that the Labour Party has opposed profit sharing in the past. It was within a month of returning to office that the Chancellor of the Exchequer put a stop to Conservative incentives to promote profit sharing. The Labour Party's Green Paper, "Capital and Equality", published in 1973, said:
  "The company-based profit sharing scheme works directly against the objectives of trade unions and Socialism."
  The discredited Bullock committee majority report, with its intellectually dishonest terms of reference, ignored profit sharing completely.
  Against this background, we are entitled to ask how genuine the Government's conversion is. Is it simply a cynical manoeuvre to keep the Liberals in harness? Or is there, on the contrary, some real recognition that they have to break new ground in terms of motivating people and involving them in their work, since their record over four years in office is one of record unemployment, and over those four years production has actually dropped so that perhaps they are prepared to think again?
  But if the Government are prepared to think again, is the Labour Party prepared to do so? Nationalisation and State ownership are the antithesis of individual ownership which we hope that profit sharing will promote. The Secretary of State for Energy, who is sometimes thought to speak for the Labour Party when it is in Government, has told us that nationalisation is on the agenda again. The right hon. Gentleman said it not in the House but in the School of

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  Oriental Studies in Malet Street. Perhaps that is an appropriate place to call for an extension of bureaucracy since, as some hon. Members may be aware, the Chinese word for the Almighty is "Heavenly Bureaucrat".
  In the fairyland of Socialist mythology such a being may exist, but most of our countrymen see bureaucrats rather differently. They would rather have a stake in the enterprise in which they work. They do not favour the collective ownership of all production and exchange, the rule of the bureaucracy—and who can be surprised at that? Nationalisation has not revolutionised, and for the better, the lives of those who now work in State industry. Nor has State ownership become synonymous with first-class motivation and producivity.
  The other form of co-operation favoured by the Secretary of State for Energy has hardly fared better. We hear very little of his three co-operative ventures. One has failed, one is struggling, and the other is rewarding its participators rather less well than the conventional forms of employment. But where co-operation does work is where workers have a stake in the business and there is a sensible business strategy.
  That has been shown very clearly in the Mondragon experience in Spain, and I commend the Anglo-German paper on this which sets out clearly some issues that the House ought to take to heart.
  Whatever those on the Left may say, I believe that there is no evidence to show that those at work are opposed to owning shares in any profitable business in which they work. Indeed, I believe that there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The initiative for profit sharing in Germany came from the unions. In France, the very word "participation" means a share in the business, and twice as many employees own shares in France as do in this country. In the United States there are nearly 200,000 schemes, with some 20 per cent. of the working population enjoying the benefits of profit sharing.
  Despite all the difficulties that have been placed in the way of profit sharing in this country, there are good and successful schemes, of which the best known is that of ICI. There are two points in it which we should bear in mind. The
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  first is that it has been adapted over 20 years to the point where it is now based on value added and is in fact productivity sharing. That must commend itself to the Government. The other is that shop stewards accept the benefit to the company and to themselves of shares rather than cash, because they understand the need for retaining the cash in the business.
  Profit sharing may not be a broad highway offering an easy passage out of all our industrial difficulties, but it is a bridge thrown across the chasm of conflict, and it is one that we should be foolish to ignore. I make the following claims for it. It is a potentially unifying force, particularly where employees become shareholders, because they are then, strictly speaking, members of the company. They are entitled to vote, to receive the annual report, and to attend meetings. It is no longer "us and them"; it is "we".
  It is also a powerful educative force which good management has now thoroughly taken on board. Recently I spoke to the chairman of a company in the North of England who had particular industrial problems. He took all the shop stewards away for the day. He started by saying to them "Am I right in thinking that you feel that this would be a better business if you were not working for the shareholders?" They said "Yes". He said "Right. Let us see what the shareholders' funds are." He put the figure on the board. Let us, for the sake of argument, say that it was £10 million. They then had a constructive discussion on where that money could be raised and what they would have to pay for it by way of interest. After two hours, he said "This £1 million in interest that we have to pay seems a lot. Shall we see what we pay the shareholders?" The answer was half that.
  If only those at work could understand more clearly than many of them do how a company is financed and could in due course receive a proper share of improved output, I believe that we would be on the way to solving our investment problems. The truth is that shareholders are an oppressed class in this country. I suggest that anyone who has held shares in ICI since 1962 will now find that the real worth of those shares is only 60 per cent. of what it was then.

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  I believe that profit sharing gives every indication of leading to improved performance. A recent survey in the United States which went back over 18 years of company experience demonstrated conclusively that companies which had schemes out-performed those which did not. A recent CBI questionnaire showed that 85 per cent. of those interviewed thought that their companies would be more productive if they were able to share in the profits.
  I believe that profit sharing will also lead to improved industrial relations. It certainly softens conflict. That may make it unattractive to some trade union thinking, but the collective bargaining role is still central in these schemes. Many trade unionists understand this and are working for the development of schemes in individual companies.
  Finally, profit sharing offers particular protection to individuals through the savings that they are able to make. For example, in the United States in a company such as Sears Roebuck the sum can be very large—tens of thousands of pounds.
  Profit sharing can also offer protection to employees who work for a family business which has gone public where the former owners are gradually selling their shares. If a wealth tax comes in, they will have to sell a lot more. They may be tempted to sell the business as a whole. If so, they will sell it to the company which can pay the most. The company which can pay the most is where the synergy is highest. So the potential unemployment which could follow such a take-over would be greatest. If, when such a family sells shares, the employees are able to buy them, they have it in their hands to control the company for the forward period. That is extremely valuable. I hope that, in reply, the Minister will consider whether it would be sensible to give the owners of a business some kind of tax concession if they sell shares to employees. If they do not sell the business they are, in a sense, forfeiting the possibility of maximising the price of their shares.
  I have tried to say in a few words why I believe that the Government's initiative on profit sharing should be encouraged. I believe that it can make a significant contribution both to improved industrial
  1776
  relations and to improved output. If the Chancellor's statement is a recognition by the Government that the individual should be encouraged to save and to take a stake in the enterprise in which he works, that is the best news in the Budget. If the Labour Party is now prepared to join with ourselves and the Liberals in developing this, their first tentative approach, that is good news for Britain.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mrs. Margaret Bain: In common with the vast majority of right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken today, I endorse the view put forward that the social implications of the Budget are most acceptable. It may well be, as I hope to indicate in later remarks, that there are reservations about some of these inasmuch as they do not go far enough. However, they are at least welcomed because they are a step in the right direction.
  Like the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley), I contend that the real yardstick of the Budget and of the Finance Bill will be their effect on unemployment. All of us, as constituency Members of Parliament, are deeply aware of the feeling of desperation that exists in many areas of the country as we see factories being closed down and little alternative employment coming to our areas.
  Against that background I remind the House of the manifesto commitments of the Labour Government in 1974 in the Scottish context and also of the reaction of Scottish commentators to the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Tuesday. In October 1974, the Labour Party campaigned on the basis that its first and overriding priority for Scotland was to create new and better jobs. There are now 191,000 people unemployed in Scotland. It was, therefore, small wonder that Mr. Jimmy Milne, general secretary of the STUC in Scotland, commented, following the Chancellor's statement, that he saw little evidence of positive measures to ease Scotland's massive unemployment levels. He went on to say:
  "The new tax adjustments impact on employment levels will be marginal."
  Tax relief means nothing to those out of a job and with little hope of getting one.
  We had hoped, against that background of unemployment, to see direct encouragement given to manufacturing

  1777
  industries in particular since our manufacturing base in Scotland has shrunk by 30 per cent. in the last five years. We would have particularly liked to see assistance given to the construction industry.
  It seems ludicrous to me, representing a constituency in the West of Scotland, where there is severe and bad housing, that, with 160,000 houses in Scotland below minimum tolerable standards, no assistance was given to the construction industry which would have provided better housing for our people and many jobs. In Glasgow the unemployment level is nearly as high as that of Austria. The unemployment level in Paisley is nearly as high as in the whole of New Zealand. In Falkirk unemployment is nearly as great as in Malta.
  I take issue with the hon. Member for Heeley on a point in connection with the whisky industry. I do not believe that many Members recognise the implications for the whisky industry of unemployment in Scotland. Most people think of it mainly as a dollar industry in terms of exports and employment coming only through the distilleries in the North and North-East of Scotland. In my constituency there are well over 2,000 jobs tied up with the whisky industry. With the whisky industry being looked on by Chancellor after Chancellor as a gift horse which can be squeezed further and further each year, we are having increasing unemployment levels.
  As I pointed out in my intervention during the speceh of the hon. Member for Heeley, the Government, because of their imposition of extra excise duty—an increase last year of 10 per cent.—have lost about £28 million to the Exchequer.
  Mr. Anderson: Will the hon. Lady put on the other side of the balance the effects on unemployment of alcoholism in Scotland?
  Mrs. Bain: I do not dismiss the problems of alcoholism. The whisky industry has been very generous with donations for investigating this problem. We appreciate the high level of working days lost through alcoholism, but, if we are to try to bring money into a central fund for investment in the economy to provide employment, why should the Government operate a policy which is costing directly £28 million in nine months? After all, that would be enough to help solve the
  1778
  problems of the British Steel Corporation.
  In listening to other parts of the debate today, I was particularly taken aback by the contribution made by the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers), which seemed fairly typical of the hypocrisy of the Conservative Party. In talking about the oil industry, he made great play of the fact that we should regard this as a capital asset and should see ourselves as trustees of this precious reserve and look carefully at the rate of depletion.
  That comment was particularly interesting since the Conservative Party, when in Government, was perhaps even more guilty than the Labour Party in handing out North Sea licences to multinational companies without imposing proper safeguards upon them. The Conservative Party has opposed every measure to ensure that the wealth from oil would flow into the Government, to be distributed to the people. The Tory Party must drop this hypocritical attitude if it is to be taken seriously, although I believe that results elsewhere in the country today will show that the majority of people, at least in Scotland, do not regard the Tory Party seriously any longer.
  As the debate was opened by the Secretary of State for Social Services, I should like to dwell briefly on the background of public expenditure and the social implications. In this House the SNP is well known to have a consistent record on public expenditure in that we have opposed all measures aimed at cutting it back. We recognise the implications of this for the future well-being of our society.
  Reference was made to the need to invest money in our schools and to retrain teachers. I draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the remarks made by John Pollock, general secretary of the largest teachers' union in Scotland, who said that the £40 million injection into the schools was
  "a drop in the bucket'
  in contrast with the cuts of recent years.
  "I would have been looking for more. We welcome every penny but £40 million spread throughout the United Kingdom is totally inadequate."
  That is a view which I would endorse, particularly when we have the growth of

  1779
  composite classes in schools and when the Government have operated a building policy of "roofs over heads" and when colleges such as the technical college in my constituency are operating at about 30 per cent. of efficiency because of lack of money.
  There is also the Alexander Report concerning Scotland which has not been fully implemented and which is important for community education. The morale of those directly involved in education is at a particularly low level. University teachers have made it clear to the House how they feel about their salary anomaly, but I do not believe that it is recognised that there is a similar anomaly concerning further education teachers in Scotland. It may well be that we can solve those problems inasmuch as the House voted not to extend the pay policy to Scotland. We can, perhaps, eradicate this problem more quickly, given the opportunity.
  In terms of social services, I refer the Secretary of State to the situation in Scotland, where 14·2 per cent. of Scots are living in poverty as compared with 12·9 per cent. in the rest of Great Britain. This figure is arrived at not only by taking the Government's supplementary benefit level as a gauge, but having upped it to 110 per cent. we still have much more extensive poverty. This was made clear in the Norris Report entitled "Poverty: The Facts in Scotland". I recommend it to the Secretary of State.
  When the right hon. Gentleman yesterday announced his upratings, which are important, I asked him a question to which he did not reply. I hope that at some stage he will take the opportunity of dealing with it. I asked him about the £1¾ billion being injected into the social services. The right hon. Gentleman has still not said how much of this will be clawed back through other methods. I was referring particularly, as was the hon. Member for Welwyn and Hatfield (Mrs. Hayman), to the problem of single-parent families with one child, dependent on supplementary benefit, who find that anything they receive in terms of extra benefit is often taken away in other ways.
  We are extremely disappointed that the Chancellor has not seen fit to abolish taxation on the basic rate of widows' pensions. In reply to a Question put my my hon. Friend the Member for Perth
  1780
  and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford), it was said that this would cost nearly £15 million in Scotland. Although we welcome the updating of the State pension for retired people, we believe, as we have said previously, that this should go as high as £25 for a single person and £35 for a married couple. On an uprating in Scotland from the previous level, that would cost £110 million per annum. Those figures are endorsed by the Scottish Old Age Pensioners Association.
  Like the hon. Member for Crewe (Mrs. Dunwoody), I feel that the £50 million to be spent on the National Health Service will go nowhere near meeting many of the problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Galloway (Mr. Thompson) will go into this matter in more detail next Thursday, Mr. Deputy Speaker, should he be fortunate enough to catch your eye. In view of the representations made to us by representatives of the dental services and of consultants, particularly in geriatric, psychiatric and psycho-geriatric specialties, we feel that £50 million will not solve these human problems.
  We look forward to hearing what is said on Monday in the closing stages of this debate. We have yet to decide—we shall do so over the weekend—whether to support the Government on the various issues raised. We hope that one of my hon. Friends will catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on Monday, when it will be made clear to the House exactly how the SNP feels on these issues.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Anderson: The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) asked for more expenditure, particularly in Scotland, on education, housing and the alleviation of poverty. If her comparisons had been drawn not between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom but between Scotland and comparative English areas—such as Merseyside and the North-East—which are away from the major centres of activity, they would have been more meaningful.
  After the 12 previous Budgets, the country clearly attaches less importance than it did to the annual Budget Statement. Nevertheless, perhaps expectations were pitched somewhat too high. That is the fault of the Government, because of the indications given at the turn of the year, which were toned down in February and

  1781
  March. Some of those expectations were unrealistic because of the economic and political constraints within which the Government now operate. Nevertheless, even within those restraints one would have liked a more forward-looking Budget.
  Some points I wanted to make have already been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley), but among the forward-looking areas I would have liked something along the lines of the near-crusade preached by President Carter to alert the American population to the energy problem. We have had one small movement in that direction in the proposals for insulation of private houses, yet a detailed inspection shows them to be very minor, with a limit of £50. One would have hoped for something more to alert this country to the real costs of energy—not only help with insulation but some clarification of the real cost of petrol.
  More could have been done for the quality of life. There is to be additional expenditure on coast line preservation, but there could have been more on these lines.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) eloquently said in her references to unemployment, there is less and less correlation between investment and the creation of jobs. With the lack of incentive to the construction industry or any clear picture of job creation, perhaps the Government have missed an opportunity in the Budget.
  I have mentioned the economic and political uncertainties which are the background to the Budget and which may lead to some fine tuning in July or thereabouts. But, clearly, among these uncertainties are the assumptions that one must make about world trade. Although my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has attempted to be bullish, particularly looking forward to the Bonn summit in July, most forecasters are fairly gloomy about the prospects over the immediate future. Whatever is decided in Bonn in July will work on a rather long time scale and is unlikely to have any real effect on the period covered by this Budget.
  As regards the assumption about the level of wage increases, we are in a
  1782
  unique situation in that we have virtually successfully traversed the third year of pay policy, with about 95 per cent. of wage settlements over the current year being within the guidelines. Yet the assumption by the Government that the settlements over the year after July will be roughly half of the present settlements must be optimistic in the extreme, particularly when one knows what existing hostages to fortune the Government have already given in relation to the police, the firemen and other sectors.
  One knows the various changes in trade union leadership and the reluctance of the trade unions to accept a further year of pay restraint, so the assumption about wages on which the Government are basing this Budget appears to be particularly optimistic, although one must pay tribute to the manner in which over the past three years the Government have educated public opinion to the interrelationship between pay increases and inflation.
  The other uncertainty is the effect of the tax concessions on the import bill and balance of payments, even with the extra room for manoeuvre that the country now has as a result of the income from North Sea oil. But it may be that in the manner in which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has spread his tax concessions he has sought to minimise the effect on the import bill.
  This is a Socialist Budget in the best sense. It is realistic in that those areas which are traditionally thought of as areas of concern for the Opposition have been tackled where there is a well thought out and proven case. One thinks particularly of the tax concessions for the farming industry, and the boost to milk production by the school milk concession. With many of my friends, I fought a campaign against a certain unnamed lady in the early 1970s. I think that this is a very important concession to the farming community and something that will be widely welcomed within the Labour movement.
  The concession on hotels is of enormous importance because of the contribution that tourism makes to our balance of payments. There has also been a recognition of the contribution made by the small business sector to the health of our overall economic life.

  1783
  These are areas in which the Government have moved, very properly, in directions which have been charted in part by the Liberal Party and in part by the Conservative Opposition, but they are also areas of traditional concern for Labour Members. The Government have sought to put the major part of their Budget strategy into these areas. I think particularly of the fact that the tax concessions are concentrated, as my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West has said, on the lower earners, of the immense boost which the Budget has given to family incomes and to the alleviation of family poverty, and of the effect of the 25 per cent. tax band on the poverty trap. These measures will be very well supported by Labour Members.
  I think also of the additional funds that are to be given to areas suffering from accelerated steel plant closures. These are major issues which the Government are recognising and for which they are providing funds.
  I end on this theme, that the Government, though perhaps cautious—some people say over-cautious—in the sum of £2½ million that they have thought themselves able to dispense in the Budget, in my view have their priorities right in a way that will be very much welcomed on the Labour Benches.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. John Wakeham: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Mr. Tapsell) for giving me a couple of minutes to take part in the debate. As the Chief Secretary is present, I shall scrap what I was going to say and address a few words to him.
  There is a great deal of agreement about the matter of small businesses. Many things could be done for them that would not cost much revenue. Before the Finance Bill is published, the Government would be well advised to consider some of those things.
  For example, I think that the Government have missed the main point over deferred tax as regards small businesses. I refer to the problem of liquidations and the preferential state of taxation in a liquidation. With clawback coming in where there is low stock at times when a receiver goes in, this presents a problem for bankers. The provisions on this
  1784
  matter could easily be amended to give a greater degree of protection to bankers, which would help in that situation. That is a very important area.
  There are quite a number of other matters that do not have a great deal of revenue implications but are nevertheless important from small businesses' point of view. Much greater flexibility in the way in which capital allowances can be claimed for small businesses would be very helpful.
  The same can be said of retirement annuities for the self-employed. Allowance should be made for the variation in profits of small businesses. In the treatment of business assets which are used in a business but are owned outside a company, the same concessions should apply to assets in the business. There is scope there. For example, we should consider the possibility of small companies being able, with the right sort of safeguards, to repurchase shares that have been held by outside investors. This is another possibility of assistance being given to small companies without necessarily costing the Revenue a great deal.
  I welcome what the Government have done for small businesses, but I tell the Chief Secretary that there are many other areas in which they could play a very practical part without a great deal of revenue cost. I should like to see them bring some of these minor but important provisions into the Finance Bill when the time comes.
  9.3 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Tapsell: This has been an extremely interesting debate. We have had particularly valuable contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean), speaking with his great authority on the poverty trap; my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), who has given unequalled service to the House on the whole question of parliamentary control of expenditure and who spoke with great authority, as always; and my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Mitchell), who pioneered the whole national political interest in the problems of small businesses and who, the whole House will agree, deserves enormous credit for the degree of attention which that vital sector of our economy is now receiving.

  1785
  Benjamin Franklin said that only two things in life were certain—death and taxes. If he had been speaking in 1978 instead of 1778, he might have added a third certainty—that with a General Election coming this Socialist Government, before dying, would reduce taxes.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, after 13 Budgets in four years, now tells us what some of us had already suspected: that economics is an art and not a science. While even that sudden accretion of modesty in him is profoundly welcome, it has one disadvantage from his point of view. It seriously undermines and weakens the whole intellectual case upon which Socialism has hitherto claimed to be founded. For Socialism, after all, is based on the belief that an omniscient Government can scientifically engineer society and the economy towards a pre-determined and desirable direction and even destination.
  By contrast with that historical philosophy of his party, the Chancellor of the Exchequer more realistically—and, it must be admitted, rather late in his political life—now likens the economic policies of Socialism to an artist throwing paint at a canvas. The trouble about this is that he is no Picasso. Since he has been at it for four years and has got through the entire colour range on 13 palettes, it is hardly surprising that the canvas is now in a most fearful mess.
  One important aspect of the admittedly arcane economic art, I venture to suggest, should be an attempt to co-ordinate policies so that the main aspects of economic policy, monetary and fiscal, both tend in the same generally desired direction and reinforce one another. This the Budget most conspicuously fails to do. It is in its failure to do so that one identifies its central weakness, as I shall seek to show in a moment, because different aspects of the Budget are bound to pull against one another in a self-defeating and self-destructive fashion.
  Indeed, this is the hallmark of the Chancellor's whole stewardship. Like the pudding once proffered to Winston Churchill, this Budget lacks a theme. The Financial Secretary may think that that is very amusing, but it will not be very amusing to the country. The failure to find the right theme may bring this country to disaster.
  1786
  Consider the inherent contradictions of the Budget. The control of the money supply is to be tightened but the borrowing requirement is to be increased. Public expenditure is to be raised but taxation is to be lowered. Investment is to be encouraged but the cost of borrowing is to go up. Lower inflation is the declared goal but a weakening exchange rate is forehadowed. Unemployment is deplored but the reduced taxation is to be financed by increased borrowing to keep the stimulus to a minimum. Increased productivity is desperately needed, and even predicated, but the necessary fiscal incentives to achieve it are not provided. As the Poet Laureate is reputed to have said in a different context,
  "If that is art, give me St. Pancras Station."
  The Chancellor, almost as though he were aware that he has no policy for industrial recovery in the real world, seems to fear that he may run out of alibis for our present discontent—alibis such as the previous Government, the oil sheikhs, foreign exchange dealers, German economic policy and, more sweepingly, the rest of the world. Those have been the favourite ones so far, to which on Wednesday the Chief Secretary—I thought rather ingeniously—added the additional one of the preoccupation with empire of the British Administrations of the 1860s and 1870s. Now even Gladstone and Disraeli have been added to the Socialist galére of villains responsible for our present economic plight.
  The Chancellor, however, as if aware that these alibis are wearing increasingly thin and looking increasingly far-fetched, keeps laying immense public stress on the great financial recovery of this country which he claims to have seen over the past two years. But where now is the hard evidence of the enduring nature of this recovery about which the Chancellor was waxing so euphoric last autumn? The truth is that for a few weeks only we had favourable financial indicators which belied our real economic weakness as a country. Where in the real world is the financial compensation for the trebled unemployment, the halved value of our money, the stagnant production or the massively increased burden of taxation which have been the practical results for our people of four years of Socialist Government?

  1787
  Despite North Sea oil and gas—without which we would now be running an enormous deficit on our balance of payments—and despite the long and humiliating tutelage to the IMF, our balance of payments is once again on a downward path, one which is widely expected to put this country back into deficit in 1979. That seems almost incredible, but it may apparently happen.
  It is little wonder that overseas opinion appears not to share the Chancellor's euphoria about even our financial position, a public confidence on his part, incidentally, significantly belied by the "little jump"—as he put it in his television broadcast—in the minimum lending rate. This "little jump" to 7½ per cent. is widely expected by the markets to presage still further rises in short-term interest rates, with their inevitably unhappy consequences for overdrafts and, ultimately, for house mortgages. Perhaps when replying the Minister of State will tell us whether he expects short-term interest rates to rise still further as a first consequence of this Budget.
  That rise in MLR, so unusually announced in the Budget Statement itself, will, I believe, come to be regarded as a genuine and significant distress signal by this Chancellor about his own Budget judgment. For, notwithstanding North Sea oil and the IMF, the recent history of the £ sterling has been profoundly disquieting, particularly in the two days since the Budget. From the start of this year until Budget day, the pound has fallen by over 12 per cent. against the Japanese yen. It has fallen by over 7 per cent. against the German deutschemark, and even the United States dollar—which has been through an unprecedented and alarming collapse of international confidence—has actually increased in value against the pound by nearly 4½ per cent. since the beginning of this year.
  Goodness knows what will happen to sterling and to future employment prospects in this country under the Government's present policies if the dollar starts to recover at all strongly. Let us take an even more dramatic international viewpoint of the true nature of the Chancellor's vaunted financial recovery. Let us look back to the very nadir of our econo-
  1788
  mic fortunes in the autumn of 1976—shortly after the Chancellor had to turn back in panic from London Airport. Take, for instance the worst day, 28th October 1976, when the £ sterling reached its lowest ever level against the dollar.
  How has the pound fared on international markets between then and Budget day? The deplorable fact is that, despite the letter of intent to the IMF and the massive standby credits from the IMF, the pound now stands no higher against the deutschemark today than it did at that exceptional period of national humiliation. Since then, it has also actually fallen a further 11 per cent. against a Japanese yen.
  So whom does the Chancellor think he is convincing when he boasts about our great financial recovery? The foreign exchange markets tell us clearly what the rest of the world thinks about this Government's economic artistry, as has the market in British Government bonds in the two days since the Budget. The Chancellor would do well to remember, despite North Sea oil revenues, that our reserves still largely consist of foreign short-term deposits and bonds—very hot money indeed. No doubt this accounts for today's reassuring statement from the Prime Minister and his repudiation of his chattering Treasury Ministers.
  What are the reasons for this renewed weakening of international confidence in the £ sterling, which, as usual, has apparently taken this Government completely by surprise? They are manifold, but basically it is because foreigners think that the British economy is fundamentally uncompetitive in the modern industrial world and likely to remain so until there are very radical changes of policy and towards attitudes to work in this country.
  Within the context of matters explicitly covered by the Budget, foreign opinion is particularly critical of this Government's tax system and their public expenditure policy. I want to say a few words about each of these.
  First, I take taxation. We all know, and even the Chancellor now recognises, that his tax policies have proved a disaster. That is why he is belatedly trying to reverse them. From the lowest end of the income scale, where the Chancellor

  1789
  has openly admitted that it has paid many people to be on the dole rather than at work, right through every level of earnings, this Government's excessive reliance on very high rates of direct taxation to pay for soaring public expenditure has proved an immense handicap to Britain in the international stakes. The whole world knows it. Even the Liberals know it. Taxation does not create wealth. More often it may dissipate it.
  Our first national priority should be to rebuild our wealth-creating machinery. The changes announced in this Budget, welcome though they are as a small token of death-bed repentance, will in no sense change the general tax climate of the country. It is a climate which has become so burdensome, so hot and so enervating that the mad dogs are no longer accompanied by Englishmen when they go out in the midday sun. Englishmen, and, I am told, even Scots and Welsh in increasing numbers, have taken to the new and, the Chief Secretary will be relieved to know, post-imperial sport known as moonlighting. Their complaint about this is that they are plagued by ever-increasing numbers of squeaking bats from the belfry of the Inland Revenue—Britain's leading growth industry.
  It is generally agreed that our income tax structure, bad at every level, has been and is at its very worst at the bottom and top ends. I spoke about the position of lower-paid workers in some detail in the taxation debate on 21st February, so tonight I want to say a few words instead about the top end of the tax scale.
  The point can be best made by putting it into its historical perspective. In 1946, immediately after the greatest war in our history, we were triumphant but impoverished. Tax levels which had been shouldered as part of the war effort in a universal national mood of sacrifice suddenly seemed excessive and burdensome. But they were not lightened. Direct taxes in 1946 were indeed onerous by peacetime standards. The starting point for the top rate of income tax was then £15,000.
  Thirty-two years have passed. Most personal tax allowances have been raised very substantially in that period, some by as much as sixfold. Inflation has increased over those 32 years by more than 700 per cent. Yet the highest tax rate band has
  1790
  only just been raised from £21,000 to £23,000.
  The same relative considerations apply, of course, to the other eight higher bands. Had the higher rate tax bands kept pace with increases in personal tax allowances, let alone with inflation, since 1946—itself a year of marked austerity and excessively high taxes—the starting point for the top rate of tax would today be nearer £100,000 than £23,000.
  Attention has so much centred on the almost unbelievably high top rate of income tax at 83 per cent. that the low starting levels of the nine higher rate bands have been somewhat overlooked. These two sets of figures, taken together, have proved catastrophic for Britain, as all our industrial competitors overseas clearly see. They are a measure of the injustice done to our best business men and to our best industrial managers—an injustice which has dangerously blunted the cutting edge of this country in a highly competitive world. The whole combined thrust of fiscal policy and inflation has been to penalise excellence and to punish success. Is it any wonder that distinguished Cambridge economists are talking about 5 million unemployed for a country that treats its best potential wealth creators in such a way?
  One generation of our national leaders perished on the battlefields of the Somme. The present generation has been and is being crippled by the unending Passchendaele of devastatingly high direct taxation. Inflation and taxation may succeed where the barbed wire and machine guns failed. They may bring this country to its knees.
  Yet high taxation is not the basic cause of the problem. It is one of the deadly effects of it. The core of the problem is the relationship of public expenditure to production and productivity.
  During four years when production has not risen at all, the Chancellor and the Government have permitted a massive increase in public expenditure. Inevitably this has had to be financed by a much higher level of taxation at home and vast borrowing overseas. After the IMF took control of the main strategy of this country's economic affairs, it looked as if the lesson had been learned. Public expenditure fell and many economic indicators at once began to improve. But the old

  1791
  lags on the Treasury Bench apparently have learned nothing from their time on IMF parole. Like the most hardened recidivists, they have returned to the scene of their former crimes and are bent on repeating the nefarious deeds which got them into so much trouble in the first place.
  The recent public expenditure White Paper committed this Socialist Government once again to increases in public expenditure which are almost certain to exceed the increase in GDP. This Budget has confirmed that folly.
  As almost every financial commentator has pointed out, the Chancellor has boxed himself into a position where he can reduce tax only by increased borrowing. That is why the stock markets have fallen. They are alarmed, and overseas opinion is alarmed, by the size of the public sector borrowing requirement.
  The position after the Budget remains as before but with disappointment added. The poverty trap still remains. There is still no meaningful incentive for middle management. Our ablest talent will continue to emigrate. Profit margins of industry are still woefully inadequate. Investment will still languish. Unemployment will still rise. Inflation will be higher next year than this. The pound will continue to drift down on the foreign exchange markets. The international competitiveness of our exports will diminish still further. Above all, we shall still be living in a country which has to endure the heaviest burden of direct taxation in the civilised world.
  A recent survey of family expenditure showed that the average family in this country pays more in tax and national insurance than it spends on food. The tombstone of this Government is already in the hands of the undertaker, and that will make a fitting epitaph for inscription on it.
  9.26 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Denzil Davies): The hon. Member for Horncastle (Mr. Tapsell) has taken me by surprise. He could have used the time available to him and spoken for a further five minutes.
  This debate has ranged widely. We have gone from Benjamin Franklin to the
  1792
  battlefields on the Somme to Winston Churchill's pudding. From that point of view it has been an interesting debate. Perhaps I can try to bring it back to reality after the contribution of the hon. Gentleman.
  I shall deal first with the point about child tax allowances. We announced last year our proposal to continue the process of phasing out child tax allowances. The House will recognise in certain cases that the shift to child benefits means that child benefits, unlike tax allowances, are available only for dependants living in this country. This means that taxpayers who maintain children overseas do not generally get child benefit. We recognised this special situation last year and the Finance Act 1977 provided that, subject to certain conditions, parents in this position could claim child tax allowances for 1977–78 at the full 1976–77 rate. We announced last spring after careful consideration that this special relief would be for 1977–78 only, and that thereafter child tax allowances for this group would be on the same lines as for other taxpayers.
  In recent months representations have been made about this matter and, after careful consideration and re-examination of all the factors, we now propose that the special relief provided for 1977–78 should continue for the time being. This will give us time to review the various suggestions and representations made to us in the last few months.
  Mr. Peter Rees: Since in form we are debating the Budget Resolutions, will the Minister explain Budget Resolution 23, and particularly why it was necessary to give it retrospective effect?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. and learned Gentleman could have raised this matter in his opening remarks. He has now passed me the document containing this material. I understand that he is complaining about retrospection which he has underlined and he is obviously upset about the retrospective provisions. I shall examine the resolution and I shall ensure that by Monday, when the debate continues, he will have the full information on the retrospective effect of the resolution.
  Mr. Rees: That was only one of the points. I was asking for general enlightenment. I am surprised that the Treasury

  1793
  Front Bench occupants do not understand their own resolution. I am asking for an explanation of the scope of Budget Resolution 23, and particularly why it is necessary to give it retrospective effect.
  Mr. Davies: I told the hon. and learned Gentleman that, instead of giving him an answer now, which would not be omplete, I shall ensure that, by the time the debate resumes on Monday, he will have the information he requires.
  In his opening speech, the hon. and learned Gentleman asked on what assumption the Chancellor had said that earnings are increasing faster than prices. I have news for the hon. and learned Gentleman: it was not an assumption. Much to the consternation of the Opposition, who are doing their best to talk up prices, as they are doing their best to talk up interest rates, the rate of inflation is falling. It is now down to 9 per cent. and it will fall by the middle of the summer, which is a very important time for the rate of inflation to fall, to 7 per cent.
  In wage increases, of course, some people have received more than 10 per cent., so if one takes the range of 10 per cent. to 14 per cent., which is where we expect the present round of earnings increases to end, that means that most people are now getting more in wage increases than the rate of price increases. So it is not an assumption: to the Opposition's consternation, it is a fact.
  Mr. Budgen: How is it possible for the Opposition to talk up prices?
  Mr. Davies: Perhaps it is wishful thinking by the Opposition, but they are clearly doing their best to talk up prices. But perhaps I should now deal with some of the points made by the hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees), who clearly is a little disappointed.
  As a result of this Budget, a married man with two children and earning £50 a week, taking into account the increase in social security benefits for which he is paying and the child benefit and other benefits under the Budget, would need an 8 per cent. gross increase in his pay to enable him to get the benefit that he is getting from the Budget. If one considers that that person has obtained a 10 per cent. wage increase, one can see why, over
  1794
  the next six to nine months, the standard of living of those on low pay will increase considerably. That is surely something that Conservative Members should have welcomed instead of carping at the Budget as they have done.
  Mr. Viggers: The Minister has mentioned an increase in the next six to nine months. While he is dealing with incomes, will he please comment on paragraph 3 on page 12 of the Red Book? I am not trying to throw a complicated point at him. The paragraph, which deals with assumptions, says:
  "The forecasts assume that average pay increases in the year beginning in August 1978 are about half the average for the current pay round."
  In other words, the Government appear to be predicating their strategy on a 5 per cent. increase in that year. Are we to believe that?
  Mr. Davies: I was dealing not with assumptions or forecasts but with the present situation in relation to the present round and with the present rate of price increases. The hon. Gentleman is talking about forecasts; wage increases in the next round will depend on the arrangements we shall make with the trade union movement. The Opposition have not told us how they propose to ensure moderation in wage increases. All their policies—not only economic but social—would militate against the kind of arrangement with working people which this Government have been able to achieve over the last two years.
  I turn now to questions about the money supply. I apologise for dealing with this arcane subject which obviously is not always fully appreciated and understood. I shall say something about the banking March money supply figures, the full details of which have been published this afternoon. I know that the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is especially interested in these matters. As the hon. Gentleman will know, sterling M3 grew between mid-February and mid-March by about ½ per cent. I am sure that that is viewed with pleasure by Conservative Members. It is less than half the increase recorded in banking February, which in turn was only about half the increase of the previous month.
  Another factor that has been exercising the minds of Conservative Members

  1795
  recently is M1, which grew by a corresponding amount in March. Surely the hon. Member for Blaby should be congratulating the Government on their achievement in keeping the money supply under control.
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that it makes no sense at all to take one month in isolation. The shortest reasonable period to take is three months. Will he tell the House what, on a seasonally adjusted basis, has been the annual rate of increase in sterling M3 over the three month period to mid-March?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman now wants to take a three-month period to try to include January. As he knows very well, the money supply increase in January was greater as a result of tax payments. The fact remains that the money supply for the 12 banking months up to April will probably be between 13 per cent. and 14 per cent. That shows a proper sense of responsibility and control of the money supply on the part of the Government.
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Joel Barnett): Tell them what it was in 1972.
  Mr. Davies: I shall tell them that in a moment.
  Most hon. Members will recognise that part of the reason for the rate of growth this year probably lying between 13 per cent. and 14 per cent. has been the developments that took place in the foreign exchange markets, especially during the autumn. The developments led companies to want to hold more of their liquid funds in sterling denominated assets rather than in dollars. As companies need to have their money readily available without much risk of capital loss, much of the external inflow has stayed in bank deposits. That increased M3 as well as wider liquidity measures.
  The increase in company sector bank deposits during last year seems likely to exceed £2 billion, or about 25 per cent. As interest rates on bank deposits have been much lower than during the immediately preceding years, a relatively larger proportion of them from both personal
  1796
  and company sectors has been in non-interest bearing current accounts. That explains why M1 has gone up more quickly than M3 in the past, although it is now coming back on trend.
  The prospect now is for the growth of M1 to slow down. That will happen as people adjust gradually to the upward adjustment in short-term interest rates, the first step of which took place last November. Sterling M3 will be growing in accordance with the Chancellor's 8 per cent. to 12 per cent. target range in the coming year.
  There will be a continuing substantial inflow into national savings as part of the Goverment's policy to finance public sector borrowing by non-monetary means, and building society deposits will grow more slowly now that the large competitive advantage that they held last year has for the most part disappeared.
  Right hon. and hon. Members have expressed concern about the public sector borrowing requirement. It seems that they are reasonably satisfied with our monetary targets. A few months ago the call was for reducing the monetary target from 9 per cent. to 13 per cent. We have done so, and the monetary target for the coming year is 8 per cent. to 12 per cent. Opposition hon. Members now have to look for something else. It is always necessary for them to try to find something with which to create an unstable financial climate. They have now turned to the public sector borrowing requirement. They say that at £8·5 billion it is too high. I remind the Opposition that it is within the limit laid down by the IMF.
  Mr. Tapsell: So what?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman says "So what?". If he does not trust the British Government, as obviously he does not, at least he must recognise that the IMF is a responsible international financial institution and it has approved and agreed to a public sector borowing requirement of £8·5 billion.
  Mr. Tapsell: Is it not a fact that the new public sector borrowing requirement of £8·5 billion is £3,000 million higher than the outturn of the borrowing requirement for the financial year that has just concluded? It is that which is giving great concern to markets at home and

  1797
  overseas and which forced the Prime Minister to make his statement today.
  Mr. Davies: The answer is "So what?" The point remains that the public sector borrowing requirement for the coming year is £8·5 billion, which is within the limit laid down by the IMF. The real question regarding the PSBR is whether it can be financed in a non-inflationary way. It does not follow, because at £8·5 billion it is £3 billion greater than last year, that it cannot be financed in an non-inflationary way.
  Mr. Budgen: Is not the position that it can theoretically always be financed if interest rates are high enough?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman said "theoretically", and that is a very important word in the statement that he has just made. I will quote from the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) in 1973. I understand that he will be contributing to this debate. Indeed, I understand that in some circles he is billed as the next Conservative Shadow Chancellor. I do not know whether that is correct. He put very well the point I am trying to make. He said:
  "It is wrong to think that an increase in the public sector borrowing requirement necessarily means an increase in money supply…the size of the borrowing requirement, although large, need not lead to inflation as long as it is financed with the non-bank public".—[Official Report, 8th March 1973; Vol. 852, c. 721.]
  So what point are hon. Members opposite making about the PSBR? Are they really saying that merely because we have a PSBR of £8·5 billion it will cause inflationary pressures? The point is that if it can be financed, as it is our view that it can be, within our monetary targets, it will not cause inflationary pressures.
  The difference this year as compared with last year in relation to financing the PSBR—and this is why we have been able to reduce the monetary targets—is that, following our changed intervention policy last October, there is no reason to expect a substantial expansionary impact on M3 from external flows. This means that more of the available increase within the sterling M3 target can be derived from domestic bank lending to the public and the private sectors. In practice, we can reasonably expect public sector debt sales on roughly the same scale as we have seen in 1977–78 so that most public
  1798
  sector borrowing is financed outside the banking system At the same time, the slow-down in inflation and the income tax concessions together will reduce private individuals' need to borrow from the banks, and the Bank of England has reminded banks of the importance of their continuing to give preference to industrial borrowers needing to finance investment and exports. The total requirement for gilt sales to the non-bank private sector will probably this coming year be much the same as we have achieved in the last two years. We have achieved the kind of funding over the last two years which we require in this coming year within the public sector borrowing requirement target to ensure that it is financed on a non-inflationary basis.
  Quite apart from the market, national saving also makes a substantial contribution to the funding of the PSBR. My right hon. Friend announced in his Budget Statement a new seventeenth issue of national savings certificates to replace the current fourteenth issue, which will begin to mature in mid-June. The new issue will offer a yield of 6·78 per cent. tax-free over its four-year life. The maximum holding for any one saver will be £2,000. We expect the somewhat higher limit on holdings, together with the competitive interest rate offered, to result in a substantial take-up of the new certificate.
  There are other instruments of national savings available, for instance, certificates of tax deposits. We have therefore every confidence of meeting our money supply target. There are bound to be fluctuations from month to month—there always are. Accidents in the timing of Government receipts and payments can cause fluctuations in some future months—for example, in May, when tax rebates will probably come through and when, of course, Government income is lower for that reason.
  My final point on monetary policy is that there has been an attempt, certainly among the Opposition recently, to try to equate the present position with what happened under Lord Barber in 1972–73. There are many reasons why the present situation is different. I think that the main reason is that this Government have decided to have proper targets for money supply. I remind the House of what Lord Barber said, when Chancellor of

  1799
  the Exchequer. Presumably with the acquiescence and approval of many Opposition Members, when asked about monetary targets, he said:
  "Because one of the main qualities of monetary policy is its flexibility"—
  this was Tory policy six years ago—
  "I do not propose to lay down numerical targets. The policy will be geared to the needs of the situation, and will change as those needs change."—[Official Report, 21st March 1972; Vol. 833, c. 1347.]
  What happened? By not laying down monetary targets, as this Government have done, for each of two years we had an increase of 25 per cent. in the money supply. The Tory Government did not even bother to lay down monetary targets. The main difference between now and 1972 is that we have a Labour Government who have always pursued responsible financial policies, whereas we have a Tory Party which in Opposition talks about responsibility but in Government practises financial profligacy.
  The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) made an interesting speech. If one reads the debates in 1972 and 1973, one finds that he was the only Tory Member at that time who even bothered to mention monetary policy and the problems that were created. The only Opposition Member who was concerned about monetary policy at that time was the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley. I am sorry that he is not present.
  I should like to make one point on the hon. Gentleman's speech. He seemed to imply, as did the hon. Member for Horn-castle, that there was something wrong about cutting taxes in the Budget and having a borrowing requirement. The suggestion was that we could not cut taxes and at the same time have a borrowing requirement for the year in which taxes were cut.
  I suppose that one must go back a long way to the proposition that we can cut taxes only when the Budget is balanced. That is what Opposition Members were implying. They were saying that we could not have a tax cut unless we balanced the Budget. The implication was quite clear. The last statesman in the Western world who tried to do that was President Hoover, in the United
  1800
  States, and the consequences at the time were disastrous.
  Mr. Lawson: Mr. Roy Jenkins did it.
  Mr. Davies: I think that I had better ignore the comment made by the hon. Member for Blaby and carry on with my speech.
  I should like to mention briefly some of the proposals on capital transfer tax, because the problems of small businesses have been raised and these proposals will help small businesses.
  The main proposals are the £10,000 increase in the threshold and the improvements to business relief which were announced in October. As the Chancellor then said, they will cut the yield from capital transfer tax in 1978–79 by £65 million. It is estimated that this year the combined yield of capital transfer tax and estate duty will be £370 million.
  The proposed improvements to business relief and the new rate scale will be particularly welcome to the owners of small businesses to whom death duties can pose special problems. As a result of these changes, the capital transfer tax bill on a lifetime transfer of business interest of controlling shareholding worth, say, £100,000 will go down from just over £7,000 to £2,375. On a transfer of business worth £100,000 the capital transfer tax payable will now, as a result of these new measures, be £2,375 on a lifetime transfer. I suggest that that is not a substantial amount to pay in capital transfer tax. On death transfer it will go down from over £15,000 to £4,750—again, a reasonably light charge in respect of death duties. If a husband and wife own a business jointly, that will represent a business worth £200,000.
  There has been one change in the business relief proposals announced in October. It was originally intended that the increase in the 30 per cent. relief to 50 per cent. and the new 20 per cent. relief for minority holdings in unquoted companies should be subject to a cumulative limit of £500,000. As a further measure to help businesses, this limit is now being dropped, although many small businesses will not be considered small with a valuation of £500,000. Farmers will benefit from the changes to business reliefs. In most cases they will now get relief at 50 per cent. whatever the size and value of their farm.
  Mr. Richard Wainwright: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider advertising extensively these fairly complicated reliefs to small business men in parallel with the elaborate advertisements of the financial community who are trying to put the fear of God into small businesses to sell their schemes?
  Mr. Davies: I am conscious of this point. When we introduced the capital transfer tax there were insurance salesmen touring mid-Wales trying to convince small hill farmers that they would have to pay substantial bills in capital transfer tax. The value of their farms were such that they would never pay any capital transfer tax. I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman that a lot of fear has been created partly by people who have a vested interest and a financial interest in creating that kind of fear.
  Business relief is being extended for the first time to charges on the disposal of timber after an election to defer payment of tax on the death of a timber owner. The hon. Member for Blaby should not laugh. Timber is an important subject. It is important as a natural resource in this country. The hon. Member should be pleased that the Government are giving some more incentives to timber growing in this country instead of laughing in the way he is doing.
  All the changes in business relief take effect from 27th October 1977.
  The capital transfer tax rules for family arrangements represent a technical matter. The hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal will understand it. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Blaby will understand this point. The capital transfer tax rules for family arrangements have given rise to considerable practical difficulties both for those who are to advise executors and for those who have to administer the legislation. The Finance Bill will redefine these rules in a way which I hope will remove the difficulties in future and will make them easier for the hon. Member for Blaby to understand. I draw the House's attention to the Inland Revenue Press release issued on 11th April.
  As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said in his Budget Statement, the Bill will put a stop to capital transfer tax avoidance schemes involving the purchase of
  1802
  associated endowment and term life policies which exploit defects in the existing legislation.
  According to The Times newspaper recently, a number of insurance companies have been marketing this scheme. One company alone is said to have taken £5 million in premium income. The Bill will also prevent the avoidance of capital transfer tax charges on settled property. These measures will take effect from Budget day. They will include provisions to counter abuse of the exemptions for distributions to the settlor for the sale of reversionary interests and to alter the treatment of protective trusts.
  During these debates we have had a certain amount of carping criticism from the Opposition about the Budget, but the Conservative Party has not put forward or attempted to put forward any coherent policy of its own. It has no policy on wages except its now new-found adherence to monetary policy which will no doubt disappear when it gets into Government. It has not put forward any coherent policy on taxation or the economy.
  However, we know what the Conservative Party will do. We have heard it all before. The Tory Party does not change its spots. It cannot. Once it gets into power it will forget about Milton Friedman, and about Dr. Hayek, or whoever is behind the American economic policy at the moment. It will embark upon a gigantic tax-cutting spree to benefit again mainly those at the top of the income range—exactly what it did in 1972–73. But on this occasion the consequences will be more disastrous than they were the last time.
  Perhaps I could remind the House of what a newspaper said—I do not think that it was trying to criticise—about the 1972–73 episode of the 1972 Barber Budget, which created all the problems and all the inflationary pressures from which we have suffered since. I apologise to the House for bringing this up, but it is very important that the country should realise that the Tory Party has not changed any of its policies of 1972–73 and that if it got into power again it would do exactly the same. I should like to refer to what was said by the City editor of the Daily Express, who was

  1803
  very enthusiastic about Lord Barber's Budget of 1972–73. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may laugh, but the Daily Express is an important paper for the Tory Party. The column was headed "Punters' Charter". The City editor went on to say:
  "'Heads I win—tails the taxman loses.'"
  That is the kind of Budget that the Tory Party likes to see and is the kind of Budget that it has been pressing upon us. He goes on to say:
  "That must be the jubilant motto this morning of the men who make share prices move—institutional fund managers and the rich, surtax-paying City punters. For both, happy days really are here again."
  That was the rather short-term reaction of the City editor of the Daily Express. Perhaps we could not expect him to look any further ahead. At that time, in 1972–73, bliss was it in that dawn to be alive. The City editor continued:
  "For both, happy days really are here again. But it is the stock market speculator especially who has not only the reason but the incentive to cheer."
  Those are the financial policies we had the last time the Tories were in Government.
  We have heard nothing, during the four years that we have been in Government and the Tories have been in Opposition to show that the Tories have learnt from what they did at that time. They have no policy for wages to ensure that what happened the last time does not happen again. The philosophy is that they cut taxes substantially at the higher end of the scale. I know that Tory Members do not like to hear this, especially the hon. Member for Blaby. I accept that he was not a Member of the House at the time. If he had been, he would, like a sheep, have followed the rest through the Lobby.
  This Budget attempts to do two things. It attempts, first of all—and perhaps this has got lost in our debates—to create a better progression in our tax system. We have a starting rate of 34 per cent. It is far too high a rate at which to enter tax. The profile of the progression of our tax system is extremely unfair and inhibiting. This position arises partly because of our PAYE system. With such a sophisticated system there has to be a
  1804
  fairly long basic rate. Otherwise, a PAYE and deduction system such as we have cannot be operated very easily. At least we have made a start on improving the progression of the tax system and, quite apart from how much money anyone will get out of this Budget, I should have thought that the Opposition would at least applaud that as an attempt to make a start on improving the progression.
  It may be that we were wrong in 1969 to do away with the reduced rate band, although one must say, with hindsight, that the problem has got worse since, mainly as a result of inflation. With hindsight, it is clear that we should not have done away with those reduced rate bands in 1969.
  The hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal seemed to indicate that he would prefer an increase in thresholds. It is clear why the Tory Party prefers that. It will benefit mostly those at the top of the scale. The strength of our proposals is that the people at the bottom of the scale get more of a benefit in percentage terms and the percentage is reduced the higher up the scale a person goes. Quite apart from the monetary effects, it is important that we have now made a small step towards improving the progression of our tax system.
  Second, the Budget creates the prospect of stable growth, in the private and public sectors. It provides a non-inflationary stimulus because we believe that we can finance borrowing without creating the kind of inflation which the Tory Party creates when it is in office. In the private sector, the Budget measures will put purchasing power into the hands of those who most need it, those who have suffered most in the past two years—the lower paid. They will receive a greater benefit than those on higher incomes. With the stimulus to public expenditure and the stimulus to private consumption contained in the Budget, I believe that we can get a reasonable growth rate to enable us to get out of our industrial difficulties and reduce unemployment.
  The Government, in conjunction with the trade union movement, have put right the excesses of Tory Party policy up to 1974. We have got the inflation rate down below double figures. This Budget contributes to and consolidates that success. It will ensure that next time, when

  1805
  we consider with the trade union movement the wage assumptions for next year, we get inflation down even more, improve our international competitiveness and make a substantial contribution towards
  1806
  creating a lasting reduction in the rate of unemployment.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Bates]
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

  CONFAIT CASE (FISHER REPORT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bates.]
  10.0 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Price; It is almost six years since Maxwell Confait was found dead in a blazing house in my constituency, and it is not my intention to rake over his ashes. I want to look to the future and to review the positive aspects of the report by Sir Henry Fisher into the events that surrounded the death which was published in December last year.
  I should like to congratulate Sir Henry on a masterly report, though I have some criticisms, to which I shall come later. The most glaring gap in the report is the ground on which Sir Henry was forbidden to tread—the trial at the Old Bailey.
  Reading between the lines in the report, one can detect an ignorance about the Judges' Rules that was as great among the barristers and the judge, Mr. Justice Chapman, as that to which Sir Henry openly refers among the police. It is worth remembering how adept lawyers are at making sure that in any inquiry of this sort they are protected from any scrutiny to which others are subjected.
  However, it was a very thorough though somewhat schizoid report. Sir Henry seems to have produced his sensible findings on the general principles on the protection of individuals in custody, with which I profoundly agree, before going on to wrestle with his soul about the probabilities of what happened. In this sense, the two halves of the report do not mesh.
  For what it is worth, I believe that Sir Henry got his findings on probability wildly wrong. I think that they were based on psychological judgments with which it was unreasonable for a man of his sheltered judicial background to grapple unaided and that the judicial mode of his inquiry was inapt for any verdict on probabilities. The report concerned not probabilities but vague possibilities. What happened remains a mystery. There were two broad possibilities: first, that the boys' confessions were suggested by the police, and, second, that the confessions
  1808
  were true. A "finding" of either scenario, if false, represents a grave calumny, either against the police, or against my constituents.
  Sir Henry might have done well simply to have stated the facts and left well alone. Instead, he chose the latter possibility and called it a probability, wrongly in my view, postulating the theory that Colin Lattimore's false confession to the killing was suggested not so much by the police as by his two companion defendants. It was a bizarre judgment, unbolstered by any detail or evidence, and one from which his general conclusions do not follow.
  However, I make no complaint about that. I merely enjoin the Home Secretary to consider the terms of any reference to a future inquiry rather more carefully so that no inquiry ever again can even appear to the public to be a review of the judgment of the Court of Appeal. Only the House of Lords is entitled to do that.
  I note from the report that the Home Office received it privately in March 1977. One of Sir Henry's first recommendations was that a Royal Commission should be set up to take the matters further. I am pleased that although the Home Office delayed publication until December of last year, it acceded to this request in July.
  Sir Henry Fisher recommended a Royal Commission on the very familiar ground that it was unsafe for him personally in his inquiry to draw general conclusions from a particular case. That is disingenuous. To draw general conclusions from the Appeal Court's judgment is exactly what Sir Henry's task was all about. It was what Mr. Roy Jenkins asked him to do when he set up the inquiry.
  It is a very English tradition that we reform anything only after a particular scandal. Children's legislation in the 1950s emerged only after the death of one child in care in 1948. Therefore, I am pleased that the Royal Commission has been set up. I very much hope that it will be seen as a vehicle for the implementation of the reforms suggested by Sir Henry Fisher rather than as an excuse to commit them to oblivion. Knowing the Home Office as well as I do, I rather fear the latter.

  1809
  I recognise that the broad recommendations of the Fisher Report, particularly about the enforcement of the Judges' Rules, are a matter for the Royal Commission. I do not intend to canvass them too strongly now, because I believe that if we set up a Royal Commission we should let it get on with its job. On that general point, however, I would simply say that as long as there is in our courts judicial discretion to overlook breaches of the Judges' Rules, the Judges' Rules will be breached. The only way to ensure that the rules are adhered to and that miscarriages of justice similar to the Con-fait case do not occur is to insist that evidence taken in breach of them is automatically inadmissible, without any judicial discretion whatsoever.
  What I am most concerned about tonight, however, is not the general principles. However, as the Under-Secretary is present—and I take this opportunity of wishing the Minister of State all the best of luck for a very rapid recovery in the Principality, which I am sure he will achieve—I must say that what I am most concerned about is those very specific areas in which it lies within the power of the Home Office to make or to mar the task of the Royal Commission, particularly concerning the Fisher recommendations, of which I shall mention four.
  The first recommendation is tape recording. This has a very long history. Right back in 1972, the Criminal Law Revision Committee suggested that something should be done about it. In God's good time, or the Home Office's good time, a committee was set up, to which the Home Office now refers as the Feasibilities Committee. That reported a couple of years ago and recommended that an experiment should take place. Instead of doing anything about it, the Home Office decided to "consult", as it called it. It consulted for a couple of years.
  What the Home Office has done now is to send a document to the Royal Commission entitled "Tape Recording of Police Interrogations". It is one of those documents which are deposited in the House of Commons Library but are kept secret from everyone else. The covering letter in the Library from the Home Office says:
  1810
  "We regard this document as virtually public."
  If the Under-Secretary has time during her reply, she might tell me what "virtually public" means. Does it mean public or does it mean secret?
  Even the Prime Minister, a notable incumbent of the Home Office in previous times, says that he believes in open government these days. Perhaps even the Home Office—though I expect that it will be the very last of all Departments of State to come around to this—might begin to believe in open government. Instead of making documents virtually public, it might even get around to making them public.
  Anyway, this document, although purporting occasionally, in odd sentences, to be objective, is in fact not remotely objective, as was made clear in The Times in an articule by Marcel Berlins last Saturday. It is a document calculated—that is a good legal word, a nice objective legal word—to persuade the Royal Commission not to engage in an experiment on tape recording so that it can make some recommendations about tape recording.
  Does the Home Office want an experiment on tape recording or not? Is it really trying to persuade the Royal Commission to duck out of an experiment on tape recording on grounds of cost, as this document seems to imply, or is it really trying to get it to duck out of the experiment because it is terrified that the police are opposed to it? It is clear that the police are opposed to it. Many policemen to whom I talk say that they are against it.
  If that is the reason why we are not to have an experiment on tape recording of police interrogations and the taking of statements, let us know and let us not have this nonsense about how expensive it would be. Every lawyer to whom I speak agrees that it would save millions of pounds if we could avoid the endless arguments that highly paid QCs have day in and day out at the Old Bailey and our other courts as to who said what to whom.
  Even the Confait Report cost £200,000, and that is not counting the costs of the police and the DPP. The cost of this sort of argument is enormous. Therefore, the cost of tape recording would be evenly

  1811
  balanced out quite easily. It is utterly disingenuous of the Home Office to put up an argument of cost when I suspect that it is really talking about an argument of police opposition. If that is the real argument, the Home Office might at least come out with it.
  Secondly, I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary how the Home Office is getting on with the recommendation of the Fisher Report, which I understand my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is willing to go ahead with in advance of a report from the Royal Commission, about full publication not only of the Judges' Rules and the administrative directions but of all the various Home Office circulars to the police departments in one volume.
  The most shattering recommendation and finding of the Fisher Report was that nobody—including the police and eminent Queen's Counsel and judges—understood what the Judges' Rules meant, and much less applied them in the courts. Many of the Home Office circulars are not published in "Archbold", which is the only book a judge grabs and looks at when he is called upon to rule on these matters in court. It is urgent that the Home Office should get these publications out.
  I should like to make one other plea to my hon. Friend. Time and time again in the Fisher Report there are statements that this, that and the other have been included in the general orders for the Metropolitan Police, yet time and time again I have asked the Home Secretary to publish the general orders for the Metropolitan police and again and again he refuses to do so. He will not say what they are. The general orders for the Metropolitan Police are becoming like the prison rules and the social security rules. They are secret rules which are used to trip people up at the last moment.
  If these matters are included in the general orders for the Metropolitan Police, what is so secret about them? Why should we not know? Why should not my hon. Friend be able to publish the general orders? I warn her that I shall return to this question later if she cannot give me a clear promise that she will be able to move towards publishing these general orders.
  1812
  I have three more quick points. The first—and I take this very seriously—concerns the research to be undertaken for the Royal Commission. It is a Royal Commission and not a Home Office in-house job. It is meant to be a Royal Commission operating under the Queen's commission, yet all its research, I understand, is to be controlled by the Home Office research unit. The present papers put up by the Home Office research unit suggest that everything should be kept quite tightly within the Home Office and the institutions which are regularly and massively funded by the Home Office, and that no research is to be allowed to be done by those eminent British institutions, such as the Tavistock Institute, whose research findings are not acceptable by the Home Office.
  I give my hon. Friend warning that if it turns out that the only research which the Royal Commission seems to be allowed to commission is that being done by what I would broadly call tame organisations, I shall return to this subject again and again, because that will show that the Royal Commission is not a genuine Royal Commission but a creature of the Home Office. I should like to have a very strong assurance from my hon. Friend that it will be open to the Royal Commission to commission research from any institution which it thinks proper for the purpose.
  Next week will be the sixth anniversary of the arrest of these three youngsters over whom there was a miscarriage of justice. The Home Office has still not come up with any compensation. Two of them are married, with children. It is a little unreasonable even for the Home Office to sit on things and to dilly-dally as long as this. The first excuse was that the Fisher Report inevitably delayed compensation, but I understand that in proceedings before the assessor he said that the Fisher Report made no difference whatsoever and that he will award compensation as though the Fisher inquiry had never taken place.
  I very much hope that in her speech my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will be able to announce the amounts of compensation which will be available to the three youngsters against whom miscarriages of justice took place.
  I sat throughout the Fisher inquiry, except for slight absences here and there,

  1813
  and in my view the evidence that was gathered is quite crucial for the future of criminal justice in Britain. I very much hope that my hon. Friend will be able to assure me that that evidence will not be locked up in some Home Office vault for the next 30 years but will be available at least to scholars, even in a Home Office-type institution such as the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge, so that scholars who really want to study it will be able to do so and form their verdict, which over the years to come might be a little different from that of Sir Henry Fisher.
  10.17 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summer-skill): I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) has raised the subject of Sir Henry Fisher's report, because I can give him some of the reassurance that he seeks.
  Perhaps I should explain that the report arose because the convictions of the three boys—Colin Lattimore, Ronald Leighton and Ahmet Salih—were referred by the then Home Secretary to the Court of Appeal in 1975. Four months later, their convictions were quashed by the court and they were immediately released.
  In view of the public concern which arose following the Appeal Court judgment, the Government announced in November 1975 the setting up of an independent inquiry to investigate the circumstances leading to the trial of the three boys. Sir Henry Fisher, a former High Court judge, was invited to conduct the inquiry.
  Because the inquiry took place in private, certain understandings of confidentiality were necessarily given in respect of the evidence submitted. This relates to the last point that my hon. Friend raised. It was on this basis that witnesses gave evidence. It would be a breach of faith if the inquiry documents were made public now or, as my hon. Friend suggested, if they were made available to research workers or to the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure. I doubt whether there would be much advantage in this, in that Sir Henry Fisher made it clear that his report was prepared in such a way that its findings would be supported by extensive references to the evidence. My right hon.
  1814
  Friend the Home Secretary is, however, considering the possibility that the Royal Commission might have access to some parts of the unpublished evidence, and he will write to my hon. Friend about this in the near future.
  I turn to Sir Henry Fisher's findings about the involvement of the three youths which, on a balance of probabilities, were different both from those of the trial court and from those of the Court of Appeal. At the trial, Colin Lattimore and Ronald Leighton were convicted of killing Maxwell Confait and they and Ahmet Salih—who did not stand trial for the killing—were convicted of arson. Sir Henry Fisher's finding was that Ronald Leighton and Ahmet Salih were involved in the killing and that all three youths took part in the arson.
  With regard to the youths' legal status now, the simple answer is that their convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal. That is equivalent to an acquittal and, so far as the criminal law is concerned, that is the end of the matter. There is no conceivable way in which the criminal courts could examine the matter afresh. There is no right of appeal by the prosecution, and the Home Secretary has no power to refer the case again to the Court of Appeal, even if he wished to do so.
  My hon. Friend asked what view the Home Secretary takes on Sir Henry Fisher's findings on the balance of probabilities. It would be improper for the Home Secretary to express a view one way or the other. The proper authority for determining questions of guilt is the courts, and he cannot prefer his own view to theirs. As I have said, in law the youths' convictions have been quashed.
  It has been said that the present situation is unsatisfactory for all concerned. But it is not correct to say that Sir Henry Fisher found the young men guilty. He was not conducting a trial, and he said no more than that he found, on the balance of probabilities, that they were involved in the offences. The young men have not been placed in this situation by the Government or other public authority. They and their advisers pressed for the inquiry to be held, and at the inquiry, and in all matters relating to it, the young men were fully represented by solicitors and counsel.

  1815
  With regard to compensation, the former Home Secretary agreed when the three young men's convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal that they were eligible for ex gratia compensation by the Home Office. Interim payments were made of amounts recommended by the independent assessor to whom such cases are customarily referred, but it was decided that a final assessment would have to await Sir Henry Fisher's findings. In reply to a Question by my hon. Friend on 13th December 1977, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that if the young men wished he would refer all three cases for further consideration by the assessor. Their legal advisers informed the Home Office that they wished to proceed, and, after consultation with them about the terms of the memorandum to be sent to the assessor, the cases were referred to him at the beginning of March. I understand that the applicants' legal advisers have since made representations direct to the assessor.
  The assessor has not yet made recommendations to the Home Secretary. In doing so he will, in accordance with the normal procedure, have regard to the extent to which the convictions were attributable to any action or failure to act by the police or other public authority or were contributed to by the accused persons' own conduct. Sir Henry Fisher has things to say on both counts which the assessor may wish to take into account. It would not be right to exclude these matters from the assessor's consideration or to seek to influence him in any other way.
  I turn now to the broader policy aspects of criminal law and procedure on which Sir Henry Fisher has put forward a number of valuable suggestions. Sir Henry himself accepted that changes which he suggested would need further examination by a body like a Royal Commission. Many of his more substantial suggestions fall into this category, including his proposals relating to the Judges' Rules. I think it is common ground among us that this task can most appropriately be done by the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure, which was announced last June by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
  This inevitably means some delay, but, having set up a Royal Commission, we
  1816
  must give it the opportunity to weigh all the relevant considerations. In doing so the Commission will need to consider not only the particular suggestions put forward by Sir Henry Fisher but the views of others with an interest in those areas, including those whose views may run counter to the suggestions expressed in the report. It is not an excuse for inactivity, but is will cover a wide range of possible reforms in the law. It is eagerly awaited by many people.
  With regard to the other point which my hon. Friend made, the Royal Commission's research will not be controlled by the Home Office research unit. It is for the Royal Commission itself to decide what research it needs to assist it in its work and how it should be organised. It can have research done by anyone it likes. It can go anywhere that it wishes. It is up to the Royal Commission entirely.
  While any substantive changes in the whole area covered by the Judges' Rules must await the views of the Royal Commission, my right hon. Friend has announced his intention to reissue in one document the Judges' Rules, the administrative directions to the police and the related Home Office circulars, so as to ensure that they are well known to the police and to members of the legal profession. This publication should appear well before the Summer Recess. In the Metropolitan Police, the Commissioner has issued a recent force order emphasising the importance of complying with the rules and directions. I understand that my hon. Friend has recently written about this to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who is considering whether these orders can be published. It would be inappropriate for me to comment at length on this request at this stage beyond saying that it is a long-established practice not to publish Metropolitan Police general orders which include information on police operational matters.
  My hon. Friend asked about the Government's attitude towards the tape recording of police interrogations. Following the report published in 1976 by the Home Office committee which looked into the feasibility of an experiment in tape recording, we consulted a number of individuals and organisations with an interest in the subject. I must stress that, far from being unanimous, their views

  1817
  showed a remarkable divergence, and no unanimity of view emerged about whether an experiment would be desirable. The Home Office has now submitted a memorandum to the Royal Commission inviting it to consider whether it wishes to submit any views to the Government on a possible tape recording experiment and the form which this might take. I assure my hon. Friend that, in the light of the Commission's views, the Government will decide whether to go ahead with an experiment.
  I also assure my hon. Friend that not all the policy topics raised in Sir Henry Fisher's report need await the Royal Commission. My rt. hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has arranged for the examination of certain suggestions which affect the responsibilities and staffing of the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Working parties set up by the Director of Public Prosecutions are already considering Sir Henry Fisher's findings on these points. In particular, they are looking at the review of the Prosecution of Offences Regulations 1946 and, in relation to cases committed for trial, the disclosure to the defence of statements and other information in the possession of
  1818
  the prosecution, and the editing of witness statements.
  My Department has also arranged for Sir Henry's suggestions in regard to pathologists and their reports to be examined. In addition, Sir Henry's suggestions about the submission of the police report to the Director of Public Prosecutions have been drawn to the notice of the Association of Chief Police Officers, which has agreed to ensure that they are brought to the attention of all police forces, including those responsible for detective training schools.
  Sir Henry Fisher's report is a valuable document on what is in many ways a distressing case. There have been lessons to be learned from it for all of us. In reserving judgment on a number of wider issues, my rt hon. Friend the Home Secretary is in no way dismissing what Sir Henry had to say, but the areas are so important that we must move forward with great care. We shall move forward, and we are moving forward. That is why I have put a good deal of emphasis on awaiting the views of the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at half past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Southwell):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

THE ARGENTINE: UK DIPLOMATIC REPRESENTATION
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in reestablishing the normal foreign affairs representation of an ambassador between the United Kingdom and the Argentine.
The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, there are no immediate plans to restore our representation to ambassadorial level but the position is kept under review. Meanwhile, our embassy conducts its full range of duties under a Chargé d'Affaires.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply which is similar to one he gave me quite a long while ago, and I am wondering how long the review will go on. Is he aware that the Argentine is pulling out of its inflation, that its trade is increasing and that we have very great interests there? However good our Chargé d'Affaires is—and he is excellent —would it not be much more sensible to restore our ambassador and return to normal relations, which would improve the co-operation of the country on difficult questions?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her tribute to my consistency. I entirely agree with her about the quality of the representation which we now have
780
in Buenos Aires. We have, indeed, an excellent Chargé d'Affaires in that capital. As to trade, I entirely agree. I am glad to inform the House that trade with the Argentine has improved in the last year or so. In 1976 we exported £63 million to the Argentine; in 1977 that amount had risen to £130 million. In that year our imports from the Argentine amounted to £120 million. Therefore, we are £10 million to the good on a rising curve of mutual trade.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, would the Minister be good enough to explain why there is no ambassador in the Argentine? If it is on the grounds of human rights, in how many countries would we have diplomatic representation? Is the noble Lord also aware that during the year a football match might take place in the Argentine and that several thousand Scots might go there to see it? Therefore, will he consider stopping them as well?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I hope that whatever the noble Baroness has to say about the Argentine, she will be very careful indeed about what she says about the Scots, especially at Cup-tie times. As the noble Baroness knows, towards the end of 1975, unfortunately, relations deteriorated between the two countries and Argentina then removed her ambassador. In reply we could do nothing but respond to her request that we should remove our ambassador from Buenos Aires, which reluctantly we did. As I have said, we constantly review the position. Indeed, if a mutually satisfactory basis for ambassadorial exchange was apparent, I am quite sure that we should be very willing indeed to engage in discussions.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, is it not precisely when relations are difficult between two countries that ambassadors are at their most useful and not at their least useful? Is it not simply since the war that countries have thought it clever to insult one another by breaking off diplomatic relations without declaring war?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I entirely agree. There are points at issue between the two countries and I entirely agree that, in those circumstances, the stronger and the fuller our relationships

781
are, the better. In my experience, at least, relations are never improved by breaking them off.
Lord HOME of the HIRSEL: My Lords, I should like to follow up what my noble friends have said. The noble Lord has had to answer questions in this manner for some time now; we have been waiting for a good many months. Could he not recognise that trade is increasing and that it is very important to us? Also, it is important that we should be on good relations with the Argentine so far as the Falkland Islands are concerned. Is it not impossible to see any excuse for further delay?
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, before my noble friend answers that question could he make the position crystal clear? As I understand it, the initiative for withdrawing ambassadorial representation was taken by the Argentinians, and it is not us who desire this. Therefore, these questions really need to be addressed to the Argentinians rather than to my noble friend.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I consider that the question has been addressed to at least one of the proper quarters in that very cogent intervention by my noble friend. Of course, we are very anxious to improve and, if at all possible, have more comprehensive relations at ambassadorial level with the Argentine. However, it is a two-way matter and, as my noble friend Lord George-Brown has reminded us, the initiative for reducing the level of representation lay not with this country.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, whatever the reasons were for the ambassador being withdrawn originally, is the Minister aware that the restoration of ambassadorial representation now would be construed as approval by Great Britain of the human rights policies followed by the Argentine Government? As this has not shown any improvement in recent months, will the noble Lord make it clear that there is no question of restoring our ambassador in Buenos Aires until there has been a marked improvement in the human rights situation there?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, no, I do not think so. I take the view that our interests in all these matters—including the matters referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—are best served by having the fullest possible representation in such countries.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, if the test was human rights, in how many countries would we have ambassadors? I leave the list of countries to noble Lords' imaginations.
Lord MURRAY of GRAVESEND: My Lords, when the Government consider this matter will my noble friend also give full thought to the people of the Falkland Islands and ask Argentina to give up any claim to those islands?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the last two observations point to the need to take a very comprehensive and constant reviewing attitude to this position. Basically we wish to see the restoration, on a mutually satisfactory basis, of the most comprehensive relations between the two countries. Things are moving in an encouraging way. Trade is a good pointer. We make representations on other matters, including those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I think that matters are slowly moving in the right direction, and we might prejudice their ultimate success if we take perhaps precipitate initiatives.
Lord GLENKINGLAS: My Lords, being perhaps the only Member of your Lordships' House who had a brother, and a Scot, as Chargé d'Affaires in the Argentine not so long ago, may I ask whether the noble Lord will do his best to return an ambassador there again?— because most of the work that an ambassador now has to do concerns trade and, as the noble Lord said, trade with the Argentine is improving. Will the noble Lord do everything he can to return an ambassador to the Argentine as soon as possible?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think that I have said enough to indicate the willingness of the United Kingdom on the proper basis to restore full relations with the Argentine.

HYDE COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATION
3.8 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the main recommendation of the Hyde Committee in 1976 (Cmnd. 6630) will be implemented.
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, as I indicated in the reply I gave to a Question by my noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner on 14th February, the Home Office has prepared a paper for the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure about the possibility of an experiment in the tape-recording of police interrogations so that the views of the Commission can be obtained on the desirability and scope of an experiment, in relation to its own work, before a final decision is taken. That paper was submitted to the Royal Commission last month and copies have been placed in the Library of the House.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Could he give any indication as to how long the Royal Commission may take to reach a decision on what is only an experiment? Where one is conducting an experiment, is it really necessary to refer such a matter to a Royal Commission?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Yes, my Lords, because it is highly relevant to all the work it is to carry out. That is why we have considered it appropriate to give it this paper. The Royal Commission is now at work. I cannot forecast when we shall have the Commission's reply.

UN AGENCIES IN GENEVA: UK MISSION
3.10 p.m.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the full establishment complement and annual cost of the British Mission to the UN Agencies at Geneva.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the full establishment complement borne on the FCO Vote is 37 United Kingdom-based and 14 locally-engaged staff. Estimated annual running costs are £903,000.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, does not the Minister find it a little difficult to give us an Answer which, in fact, means that the establishment of the United Kingdom Mission to the UN in Geneva is notably higher than the establishment of the United Kingdom Mission to the headquarters of the UN in New York? Are we not rather lucky that the Think Tank missed this example, which would have supported their strictures rather better than the examples which they selected? May I ask the Minister if he will have an inquiry made as to whether we really need 51 people in Geneva—some of these agencies are tiny—at the cost of nearly £1 million a year?
Lord GORON WY-ROBERTS: My Lords, as to the comparatives between our Missions to Geneva and to New York, New York costs substantially more than Geneva, but I have not got the comparative figures on staff. I shall get them for the noble Lord. It is a fact that about 20 United Nations and other international organisations are based in Geneva and meet there regularly, and a great number of specialised committees, on which we take an active part, operate in Geneva. The international bodies include the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD);the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; five United Nations' specialised agencies; the Economic and Social Council; the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, and others. It might assist the noble Lord and the House if, with the permission of the House, I were to append to my Answer today a list of the organisations and meetings to which I have referred.
Lord GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, is the Minister aware—if the House will forgive me—that apart from the ILO, the WHO, and one or two of the other bodies

785
he mentioned, the others are organisations that could be visited from here, or attended to by specialists attached to the Berne Embassy? Is he not aware that, on the face of it, much devoted as I am to him and his Department, it seems difficult to support 51 permanently in Geneva as against 42 permanently attached to the UN in New York? On the face of it, it looks odd.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, certainly I take note of what my noble friend says, especially in view of his own distinguished experience of the operations involved in this Question. I think, looking through this list which I think he and the House as a whole will he interested to study, he may on reflection agree that this is not an unduly large representation for all these purposes. It compares in fact with the numbers in Missions which our friends in Europe in the EEC find it necessary to provide in Geneva. But I repeat that I shall bear what he has said in mind.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to convey the thanks of those who go regularly to Geneva, particularly in connection with the Human Rights Committees of various kinds? I am sure the noble Lord is aware of the enormous work that is done in these Human Rights Committees. If there is not a voice of the United Kingdom there, the voice of the Soviet Union and the East European States is always to be heard. Nobody, I should have thought, and I am sure the noble Lord would agree, is supernumerary in that office in Geneva.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. The quality as well as the range of our representation in Geneva—and Geneva is Geneva, you might say another New York, from the days of the League of Nations—is very high indeed. I am glad to have this testimony from the noble Baroness. We have in fact to compare not only with our friends and allies in the Community but also with others, who are very assiduous and very numerous in their attendance at these meetings, from other parts of Europe.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, as the noble Lord is using Lord George-Brown's Question as an opportunity to supply the House with information, would he be
786
good enough to add at the same time a list of costs and individuals in Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg, and anywhere else on the European continent?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am normally anxious to meet the wishes of my noble friend Lord Wigg. I hope that he will let me look at the full extent of his request, especially in relation to the phrase he tacked on at the end, "and anywhere else" in Europe. I shall see what can be done. I think I understand what the noble Lord wishes to have in the way of information. It is important information. It will assist him and the House to make the proper comparatives.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, is it not a tremendous psychological advantage for any international organisation that it should be able to base its headquarters on neutral territory?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: Yes, my Lords; it varies from organisation to organisation. Those I have quoted certainly need to be represented on the spot. There are others, as the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, has reminded us, which could be serviced from London.
Following is the list referred to above by Lord Goronlly-Roberts:

"ORGANISATIONS WITH WHICH UKMIS GENEVA WORKS INCLUDE (BASED IN GENEVA):

"UN Organisations

United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD)

Economic Commission for Europe (ECE)

UN Fund for Drug Abuse Control (UNFDAC)

"UN Specialised Agencies

World Health Organisation (WHO)

International Labour Organisation (ILO)

World Meteorological Organisation (WMO)

World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO)

International Telecommunications Union (ITU)

"UN Offices

Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees

Office of the UN Disaster Relief Co-ordinator

"Divisions of the United Nations Secretariat

Division of Human Rights

Division of Social Affairs

Division of Narcotic Drugs

"Non-UN Organisations

General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT)

GATT UNCTAD International Trade Centre

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)

Inter-Governmental Committee for European Migration (ICEM)

"(meeting regularly in Geneva)

UN Economic and Social Council

UN Commission on Human Rights

UN Narcotics Commission

Governing Council of UN Development Programme

"In addition the Mission took part, in co-operation as necessary with visiting home-based delegates, at specialised international conferences in Geneva during 1977, including the following:

"ITU World Administrative Broadcasting Satellite Conference;

UN Conference on Territorial Asylum;

"UNCTAD Negotiating Conference on a Common Fund for Commodities (first and second sessions)

Diplomatic Conference on Humanitarian Law (Fourth session)

UN Sugar Conference (first and second parts)

WIPO Diplomatic Conference on the Revision of the Nice Agreement."

COMMON FUND NEGOTIATIONS
3.17 p.m.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what response has been given to the proposal of the Commonwealth Heads of Government in the Pacific and Asian Region that a meeting should he called at ministerial level to advance international consensus on the establishment of a Common Fund as proposed by the Third World Committee of 77.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, the meeting is being held today and tomorrow in London. We welcome this opportunity for an exchange of views in the Commonwealth, which we hope will make a positive contribution to wider international consultations on the prospects for a resumption of negotiations on the Common Fund.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, while welcoming the meeting, of which I was aware, may I ask the Minister whether special consideration will be given by Her Majesty's Government to the three major differences which have occurred about the Common Fund—first, the indexation of prices and imports; secondly, Government contributions to the Fund; and, thirdly, the use of the Fund for the diversification of production?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, I am advised that there are two, not three, difficulties which the Conference will be looking at: first of all, the sources of finance for the Fund's operations in support of the international buffer stocks in order to stabilise the commodity prices, and, secondly, the Fund's role in respect of commodity measures other than buffer stocking. On the first, on the direct contributions, we and most of the other developed countries believe that the capital structure of the Fund's buffer stock facility should be based on the international commodity agreements, and this reflects the principle that producing and consuming countries within the framework of the ICAs must themselves bear the prime responsibility for buffer stock financing.
On the second problem, we are not yet convinced that a case has been established for new financial facilities for the Fund to support other measures. The Group B countries, which are mostly the developed countries, have made clear that their minds are not closed on this issue and they would be prepared to consider a rôle for the Fund in this area. We, ourselves, are doing what we can to encourage other developed countries to think very seriously about the scope and nature of this possible second lead of aid to the underdeveloped countries. These are all things that will come under discussion at the Conference being held today and tomorrow.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very detailed reply. Would not the responsibility of the commodity agreements for costs mean increased poverty for people in the developing countries and increased prices for the consumers in this country? Cannot we follow the example of the six European countries which have now agreed to Government contributions, the Netherlands even making a substantial offer in order to meet the hunger which there is in half the world today?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, it is true that the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries have leaned rather more towards the view of the so-called Group 77. We hope our approach is a positive one on this matter. We stand by our commitment to establish the Common Fund, and we are by no means inflexible. We are doing what we can to try to influence the other countries. Informal contacts are being made with all concerned. We shall try to get all the countries to indicate informally, and without commitment at this stage, the elements of flexibility in their thinking. Then, on that basis, we can go for even better things.
Lord BALOGH: Does the noble Baroness not realise that commodity schemes do not benefit the poorest people and countries, because the exportable commodities are a source of wealth which most of the poorest countries do not have?
Baroness STEDMAN: We are supporting the trading negotiations for the commodities in order to try to stabilise the prices of these commodities at a time when they are in short supply. We have done a lot in this form. The other developed countries are also doing a lot to help in this way. I do not completely accept that the actions we are taking are to the disadvantage of the poorer countries.
Lord ELTON: Does the noble Baroness agree that these discussions are very important preliminaries in another sense to the Lomée meeting which is to take place in September? Will she assure us that the diplomatic preparation by the Group B countries which was so conspicuously absent in the latter stages
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of the last UNCTAD meeting will be supplied on this occasion, so that the developed countries have an agreed policy with which to meet the Group of 77? Does she, in that light, take on board the contention of the Foreign Secretary of Jamaica that the Stabex and the Common Fund principles are not exclusive but may be complementary?
Baroness STEDMAN: I cannot commit my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary by suggesting what would be his view on the last issue. What I can say is that we are doing what we can as a Government, and through all the means at our disposal, to try to encourage the other developed countries to come to some general agreement and to be flexible as to the way in which they can help.
So far as aid is concerned, the planned level for the aid programme which we gave to the underdeveloped countries in 1977 and 1978 was £623 million. Then, for 1978 and 1979, we set it at £669 million. Despite all the constraints that we have had on public expenditure, it has been possible to increase that level for 1978-1979 by yet a further £20 million—that is, to £689 million. That, I am sure, is an indication of the concern that Her Majesty's Government feel for the poorer countries. I am sure that that provides positive evidence of the real concern that we feel and of our intention to do what we can with the other developed countries.
Lord ELTON: While accepting that assurance and, indeed, welcoming it in part, will the noble Baroness not also accept that, while it is admirable to encourage a shared view among the Group of 77, it is more important first to get a shared view among our own friends?
Baroness STEDMAN: That is one of the objects of the meetings that are being held today and tomorrow.

SOLOMON ISLANDS BILL [H.L.]
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, this is a Bill to make provision for, and in connection with, the attainment by Solomon Islands of independence within the Commonwealth. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.—(Lord Goronwy-Roberts.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL
3.25 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Lord ABERDARE in the Chair.]
The LORD CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare): May I draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that there are three documents in front of the Committee: the Marshalled List, a separate sheet which contains Amendments Nos. 19A to 19D in Schedule 1, a manuscript Amendment to Clause 3 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Banks, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder.
Clause 1 [Election of representatives to the European Assembly]:
Lord BANKS Lord BANKS moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 8, leave out ("this Act") and insert ("the Regional List System in Great Britain and the Single Transferable Vote System in Northern Treland, as laid down in this Act").
The noble Lord said: With the leave of the House, I should like at the same time to speak to the related Amendments. which are the manuscript Amendments and Amendments Nos. 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 24, 26 and 27.
These Amendments all deal with the electoral system. What the Bill provides by way of an electoral system is the firstpast-the-post system in Great Britain and the single-transferable-vote system in Northern Ireland. What the series of Amendments does is to restore the regional list system of proportional representation
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for Great Britain as it was when the Bill was first introduced in another place, and it retains the single-transferable-vote system of proportional representation for Northern Ireland. Therefore, the only change brought about by the Amendments is that from the first-past-the-post to the regional list system in Great Britain—that is, in England, Scotland and Wales. The Amendment restores, except for Northern Ireland, the precise wording of the Government's recommendation as it originally appeared in the Bill when it was presented in another place. I emphasise that. The wording is not mine. Nor is it that of my noble friends. It is the Government's.
The Prime Minister, in a joint statement with my right honourable friend Mr. David Steel in March last year, declared that the Government's recommendation would be subject to a free vote in each House. These Amendments present the opportunity for a free vote in this House.
The arguments for a proportional representation system for direct elections to the European Parliament have been expounded in this House on many occasions. I should like briefly to summarise them. There is the danger of the distortion which might be created by using the first-past-the-post system in 78 large single-member constituencies. The first-past-the-post system distorts at the best of times, and the larger the constituency the greater is the distortion. So there is a great danger that the balance of representation as between the Labour and Conservative Parties in the European Assembly may be seriously distorted, so that the representation is greatly at variance with the actual votes cast for those two Parties. Secondly, there is the possibility—the likelihood—that there would be no representation at all for substantial minorities if their support is widely distributed throughout the country. Thus, the Liberals, for example, could poll millions of votes, yet have no seats.
Then there is the equal danger of over-representation for less substantial minorities if their support is concentrated. This might well be the position with regard to the Scottish Nationalists. This distortion would affect not merely the political balance among those who go from this country to represent us in the European Parliament but also the political balance

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of the European Parliament as a whole. The other Members and the Party groups in the Parliament, might well have serious reason to be dissatisfied with us because we had altered the balance in that Assembly from what it would have been had we, like them, had a system of proportional representation ensuring that representation in the Assembly was closely related to the way in which the votes had been cast.
It is important to bear in mind when facing this situation that we are not electing a Government when we elect the representatives to go to the European Parliament. All the other countries would be electing their Members by proportional representation. Therefore, it does seem that the case for proportional representation for the European Parliament is overwhelming. This Amendment, and the subsequent ones related to it, provide for the regional list system of proportional representation to be used in Great Britain. What is the regional list system? It is simply that the country is divided into electoral regions which, so far as possible, follow the boundaries of the regional planning regions. There would be nine such in England with from three to 14 Members each. Scotland would have eight Members and Wales four, and both would be a region, so there would be 11 regions in all.
Within the regions, candidates are nominated by the Parties up to the number of seats to be filled in each regions, and Independents may stand as well. A form of ballot paper has been devised which shows the Party candidates—the candidates of the same Party—in Party groups, so that, by looking at the ballot paper, one can see all the candidates of one Party grouped together, all the candidates of another Party grouped together, and so on.
The elector casts his vote by marking with a cross in the familiar way opposite the name of the candidates he prefers, and this will normally be one of the candidates of the Party of his choice. The votes are then added up for each Party group and the seats allocated in proportion to the votes cast for each Party group, so that a Party group gets the number of seats which its total votes entitle it to have. The first candidate to be elected from a Party group is the candidate in that group
794
who has secured the most votes. If the Party group is entitled to a second Member, he will be the one with the second largest number of votes in that group, and so on.
A similar system to that used for the topping-up Members of the added Member system, which was explained earlier in the week by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is used to carry out this allocation, and to determine the proportion due to each Party, so there is that similarity between the regional list system, which these Amendments propose, and the added Member system, which the House has adopted for the Scottish Assembly.
Nevertheless, the regional list system differs from the added Member system in two respects. First, under the regional list system, there are no single-Member constituencies, but we must remember that we are dealing with an election to the European Parliament and that the circumstances are very different from an election to the Scottish Assembly. Single-Member constituencies would have electorates of about 500,000 people for the European Parliament and the idea of a close personal link, as at Westminster, would not be feasible in any event. If the added Member system were used, rather than the one proposed in these Amendments, then, on the basis of two-thirds of the Members being elected in single-Member constituencies and one-third topping up, the single Member constituency would have about 750,000 electors, and with numbers of that size it makes more sense to have multi-Member regional constituencies. The added Member system may be thought to be more suitable for the Scottish Assembly and the regional list system may be thought to be more suitable for the European Assembly.
Under the regional list system—and this is the second difference between it and the added Member system—the electors control the order in which the candidates of a particular group are elected. Under the topping-up or list part of the added Member system they do not, as the priority on the list is determined by the Parties. But under the regional list system it is the electors and not the Parties who determine this priority. It is therefore a less rigid list system than the topping-up part of the added Member system, and Independents, too, under this system can

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be elected if they have a great deal of support and are particularly popular. A noble Lord said on Second Reading of the Bill in this House that the regional list system amounted to very little more than Party patronage through nomination. That, as we see, is quite untrue and must be based on a misunderstanding of the system. Of course, both the regional list system and the added Member system are better for elections to Europe than the first-past-the-post system.
It is well known that we on these Benches prefer a third system, the single transferable vote system, and, indeed, when a year ago, I introduced into this House, while we were waiting for the Government's Bill, a Bill for elections to the European Parliament, I included in it the single transferable vote system. It is only by using that system in Northern Ireland that we can be reasonably sure that one of the three Members for Northern Ireland will be a representative of the minority community. That is why we retain the single transferable vote for Northern Ireland. A further reason is that it is very familiar there already, being used there at present in local government and having been used for elections to the Convention. But, though we prefer the single transferable vote, we accepted the added Member system for Scotland last week and we put forward the regional list system for Europe this week in the same spirit; we put it forward not only because it has, though it is not our first choice, much to commend it, as I have sought to show, but also because it is the Government's recommendation. I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, will be underlining the points in its favour which I have made.
The Home Secretary, speaking on 6th July in another place, said that the Government recommended acceptance of the regional list system to the House. He pointed out the danger of distortion, as I have done today, and, as I have done today, he explained that we should not be electing a Government in the European elections. On 21st November, Mr. Rees pointed out the advantage so far as timing was concerned if the regional list system were chosen. In regard to timing, he said that, if the regional list system were chosen, progress could be faster.
The multi-Member constituencies were specified in Schedule 3 and therefore, once the Bill had received the Royal Assent, the political Parties would know the final nature of the constituencies and could begin the election of candidates immediately.
Some noble Lords may fear that to amend the Bill might endanger its safe passage, but I cannot believe that that could be so; there is ample time for the Government and the other place to deal with our Amendments, to get the Bill through and to complete the arrangements by early December, whichever electoral system is adopted. That would leave the six months which Lord Harris has said the Government feel should be left for the run-up to the campaign. And, now that the Prime Minister has firmly announced 7th June 1979 as the date for direct elections to the European Parliament, I cannot believe the Government will allow any unnecessary delay, and, if there is no unnecessary delay, there is plenty of time.
If it was right, and I believe it was, that we should ask another place to think again about proportional representation for the Scottish Assembly, then it is right that we should ask another place to think again about proportional representation for Europe. If they decide to turn down proportional representation for Europe a second time, I would say that that must be the last word on the matter so far as these first elections are concerned, but I believe that we must provide them with the opportunity for second thoughts. We must make clear what, I am sure, is the majority view of this House: that the European Election is of such a unique character as to demand a proportional system, and I hope that the Committee will support the Amendment. I beg to move.
3.40 p.m.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: I had not intended to intervene so early in the debate, and perhaps our deliberations will be less lengthy than some had hoped, and indeed I had feared. It is only a short time since your Lordships last considered matters of proportional representation—only last week—and at that time, on the Scotland Bill, your Lordships dealt with an Amendment, which was ably moved

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by my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn, in no mean fashion. Your Lordships could be said in those circumstances to have stated your opinion fairly emphatically in that sense. Different and rather more difficult considerations apply to this Bill, particularly when one has consideration for the situation in which your Lordships find yourselves today. Before I deal with the reasons why I hope the Committee will not agree to these particularAmendments which are enshrined in the Marshalled List—and I say that deliberately, since it appeared only at about half-past eleven or a quarter to twelve—I want to say a few words about the system of voting as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Banks.
On Second Reading of the Bill I remarked, in effect, that of all the systems of democratic elections in which there is a proportional element, the regional list system is one which I find the least attractive and the most difficult to understand. As I said on Second Reading, what is in effect being proposed is to face the electorate with almost the opposite of the position which presently obtains in our system of election. Instead of inviting the elector to choose the individual to represent him—and I bear in mind that that individual is likely to wear a Party label—under this system the elector is to be invited to hang his hat on the Party peg, and the election or otherwise of the candidate, as opposed to others on the Party list, comes in at a second or later stage. To that extent I disagree whole-heartedly with the noble Lord, Lord Banks, when he tries to make out that this is a less rigid system than some, and one which will reflect in merit the different positions of the individual candidates.
The formula for allocating seats is extremely complicated. It is to be found in the proposed Schedule 4, at about paragraph 50, on page 44 of the Marshalled List. If none of your Lordships has had time to examine this Schedule, I most heartily commend its perusal, because it will be, if the Amendment is agreed to, what we are going to foist upon the electorate. It is what we are going to ask them to understand and to apply for these elections. I had a little to do with the system when I was a Member of the European Parliament and sat in the Regional and Transport Committee. At that stage the noble Lord, Lord Thomson
798
of Monifieth, had failed to extract any money from the Commission so far as the Regional Fund was concerned, and we were therefore reduced to debating such matters as the linkage of caravans to cars, and harmonisation of that nature—matters which, I must say, affected the Italian delegation most profoundly. I used to spend some of the debates on working out different formulas for differing situations.
The system—and one is tempted to call it crazy—was invented by this gentleman, who was certainly ingenious, if not a genius. Whether he is still alive, or how long he retained his reason after thinking up his rule, I do not know. Paragraph 50(2) of Schedule 4 says that the first duty of the regional officer, after voting has taken place, is to
"record the candidate vote of each candidate (including any candidate who has died) …"
This is the novelty of the system. Subparagraphs (4) and (5) contain the nub of the formula, and I am not going to weary your Lordships by reading them out. Suffice to say that the kernel of the whole system is to take the number of seats which a Party or group has, and add one and then divide that into the number of votes it has obtained.
A further illustration of what is being complicated is contained in sub-paragraph (6)(a), which says that in the allocation of seats under the rule
"no seat shall be allocated to an individual candidate who has been proved to the satisfaction of the regional officer to have died".
What is it the Liberal Party is telling us to accept? Dead men tell no tales, but they are going to lie down and have their votes counted. I am being frivolous, but the remarks are not entirely frivolous, because in effect we are being asked to write into the Bill a total list of Amendments which extend to over 50 pages in the Marshalled List. Why I read out those pieces in a light-hearted manner, I hope, was to try to illustrate that we are being asked to consider Amendments which are new as well as a system of election which is totally alien to anything which has happened in this country before.
What will be the effect of that on your Lordships' House and on the Bill? We cannot legislate in just one debate to have this system of proportional representation;

799
it cannot be done. Now that the Marshalled List has appeared, and one can see the Amendments and how they are grouped, we know that what would be entailed if the Amendment were passed would be a detailed and proper consideration of each Amendment, and no doubt that would take some days of debate. Anybody who has been following the progress of the Scotland Bill, particularly if he considers what has happened in the last two days, would not I think disagree with the proposition that if we were to accept the Amendment today we would involve ourselves in detailed consideration of a number of complex and highly intricate matters which would have to be debated.
A further point is that matters such as are contained in Schedule 4—detailed arrangements for the holding of elections—are, by their very nature, much more usually dealt with by the Secretary of State by means of order, and I hope I have the agreement of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, when I make that contention. The noble Lord, during consideration of the Bill on Second Reading, promised all-Party talks on election details—and I see the noble Lord nodding—and I would make the suggestion that this is a much more appropriate method to work out how the European elections are to be set up, than by writing these complicated provisions into a Bill such as this.
If these Amendments were approved, having gone through the ordinary processes of the House, that would have two effects. First, we would clog up our own workings. That may not matter very much, although the House already seems to have much to do within the next few weeks. We would clog up our workings while we considered a mass of detail, as I have already tried to point out. I would regard all that as totally unnecessary. Secondly, the Bill, after passing through its stages in this House, would have to go back to the other place, which has already rejected this system by a very decisive margin. Nevertheless, the Bill would have to go back, drastically amended, and the other place would then have to consider, and would be duty bound to consider, our Amendments in such detail as the time it could find allowed. It would have to provide time,
800
probably limited time, by use of a guillotine, for their consideration.
But what I regard as being much more important (and I am taking noble Lords into my confidence, I hope, when I say this, but it is obvious when one thinks of it) is that it would provide a first-class opportunity for those who wish to see the Bill fail, who wish it never to have the Royal Assent, to table a host of Amendments to our Amendments, which would have to be dealt with. So, at best, a guillotine, and the Bill would not be fatally delayed: at worst, the Bill would be bogged down, and it would run out of time.
So we really have to face two matters when we consider this. We know now that the date of the poll has been fixed in June of next year, 1979, so that we have a target to meet. Secondly, this Government—and I made this remark on Second Reading—are to a degree living on borrowed time. If I may not be too contentious, they are trying, by means of the Finance Bill and other ways, to borrow a bit more time; but the fact remains that by all accounts time is running out, even if not under the Parliament Act. The effect of this, of course, is that if there was a General Election before this Bill received the Royal Assent, a very heavy responsibility would lie on those who had contributed to its failure, however worthy their motives may have been.
What could the Liberals achieve, or what could the sponsors of this Amendment achieve, even if they were successful, even if the Bill goes through all its stages in both Houses? I was really quite surprised to hear the noble Lord, Lord Banks, say, apparently quite calmly, that he expected, if all went well, that this Bill would go through all its stages by December. It is, I think, showing great faith—I am not sure what in, but great faith—to think that this Government will be sitting there in a position to promote Bills, or even to present them for the Royal Assent, in December.
Lord BANKS: I wonder whether the noble Earl would allow me to interrupt him on that point? I was of course including in the period of time not merely the time for the Royal Assent, but the time after that which might be necessary for

801
any Boundary Commission work, if in fact the system which was ultimately used was the first-past-the-post system.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: The noble Lord makes himself a great deal plainer now than he did before, but I hope he will agree with me that the time-scale of which we are talking is really July, not December. That is the time which will become critical.
What is it that would be achieved if this Amendment were to be agreed to and everything happened as the noble Lord, Lord Banks, would like? What it would mean is that the electorate would be saddled with a method of electing its representatives to the European Assembly which will be difficult to explain and which, however advantageous it may be electorally speaking to any particular small group on the periphery of our body politic which feels, perhaps, that it deserves more seats in the European Parliament, will have to be turned upside down again at the second election; because, doing what researches I can, I find there is no single country in the European Community which has adopted this method, as favoured, for these elections, and the probabilities are, as I say, that the whole thing will be changed again at the second election, when we have to have some sort of system which is agreeable to all.
On these occasions it is normal, I think, to have a free vote; and, of course, every noble Lord speaks for himself and votes as his own conscience and inclinations tell him. For myself, I had my share of chivvying the Government before this Bill was presented, and I think that in my gentle and courteous manner I took the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to task on a number of occasions at the dilatoriness of the Government in not presenting the Bill a great deal earlier. For myself, I am certainly not going to prejudice this Bill now. I am far too ardent a European, even if a retired Member of the European Parliament, to do anything which would cause your Lordships' House the shame of having to face up to the fact that it had been responsible for Britain once more reneging on its international or European duties. If the noble Lords on the Liberal Benches wish to divide the Committee, for myself I shall vote against this Amendment. I very much hope that
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I can count on a number of my noble friends, and indeed noble Lords in all parts of the Committee, to accompany me into the Lobby.
3.56 p.m.
Lord HOME of the HIRSEL: Only a couple of weeks ago I voted with a good deal of enthusiasm for the system of proportional representation for Scotland; and I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Banks, that a system of first-past-the-post in relation to the European elections would produce some terrible distortions for this country. You have to look back only to May of last year, when the Socialist Party were getting very small polls, to realise that. In the polls, it looked as though they would experience a catastrophe in a General Election; and the result would have been that Europe would have been full of Conservatives and some Liberal M.P.s, but practically no Socialists at all. I do not think that is a good thing. I think that, in Europe, there ought to he a fair share for the Parties, and that they should be represented particularly when serving abroad. So my instinct is strongly in favour of proportional representation so far as the European elections are concerned. But I cannot vote for this Amendment. I have come to the same conclusion as my noble friend Lord Mansfield. I think that, in the unknown political circumstances of the day, it is just too dangerous to do so. It might result in losing this Bill, and for that I could not personally be responsible.
Lord YOUNG of DARTINGTON: I think it would be unfortunate if no other voice at all was raised in support of the Amendment standing in the name of Lord Banks, and it would not, I believe, be a fair representation of opinion in this Committee, any more than would be an election for the European Parliament held under the first-past-the-post system. Most of the issues have been debated many times before, and no doubt people will have made up their minds one way or another before this debate was even started, let alone has come to its conclusion.
The debate can indeed be said to go back, not just some years but many decades. In 1882 W. S. Gilbert put the point—and I think it is one of the main

803
points before us—succinctly in lolanthe, when he said:
"That every boy and every gal, That's born into the world alive, Is either a little Liberal, Or else a little Conservative!"
Many Members of this Committee will be even better aware of that than I am; and, of course, if he were writing today, W. S. Gilbert would be substituting the word "Labour" for the word "Liberal". W. S. Gilbert was intending to ridicule a system which obtained in this country at that time, but what he said then seems to me to be much more apposite now in going some way, at any rate, towards ridiculing the system which is proposed in the Bill before us, which is so different from the original Bill that was presented in another place.
The case for some form of proportional representation, which has been well put by the noble Lord on the other side of the Committee. is that British opinion would not be accurately represented if the proposals in the Bill were held to. The unfortunate fact is that, if we held to a system which is so unlike that in all other European countries, it could have a most unfortunate result. No one knows exactly how it would work out under the regional list system, but it could he that the Opposition Party in a mid-term period would gather unto itself all the seats in the European Parliament—which would certainly seriously undermine in Europe the position of the British Government and would make this country look ridiculous in the eyes of other people in Europe who have decided, in their wisdom, as it seems to me, to go for a form of proportional representation.
The only reason why we would consider it is, naturally, as has been said already, because the constituencies have to he so much larger for the European Parliament, in any case. There is not only that danger but there is, perhaps, a much more real danger; that is, that there probably would he no Liberals represented in the European Parliament and also no representatives of other minorities. This could mean—and we do not know what minorities there will be in the future—that the present political balance would be, to some extent, frozen; that would be extremely unfortunate. If there is to be support
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for Europe, it is important not only that that support should be from the major Parties but also from the minority Parties and minorities generally. It seems to me that, although there are risks—as there always would be risks in this kind of situation—in voting for the Amendment, to do so would he a demonstration of common sense by your Lordships' Committee on this occasion.
Lord ALPORT: One of the difficulties which in the past those in favour of proportional representation have had to face is the difficulty of making up their minds as to which kind of proportional representation they favour. It has always been on that particular rock that the efforts made by the Liberal Party and others have in the past foundered. There are, one knows, disadvantages in almost all of the various systems put forward and probably there are merits in all of them as well; but the point has been reached in the long controversy over this where this House a very short time ago made up its mind in favour of one particular form. It seems to me, therefore that it would be very unwise for us to produce for this European election a different form of proportional representation. It would be more convincing for the country at large, many people being still sceptical about the merits of the system, if we gave a vote, for a second time, in favour of one particular system.
From a rather complicated Marshalled List, I understand that there is to be proposed by a number of Peers representative of all Parties an Amendment which will enable us to repeat for the European Assembly the same kind of system as we, at any rate, favoured so far as Scotland is concerned. Therefore, I hope very much that the noble Lord, Lord Banks, who has put his case very well and who has now had the opportunity of showing us in detail the implications of his particular system and that of his noble friend Lord Wigoder, will withdraw his Amendment and enable us—or, at any rate, I hope, a majority of us—to support for the European Parliament what is, I think, absolutely essential; that is, proportional representation, but in a form we have already expressed our view of as being in favour of in not dissimilar circumstances a very short time ago.
4.6 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: As I said in the Second Reading debate on this Bill, the electoral system to be used for elections to the European Assembly is obviously one of the major issues which arises on this Bill. This has been so in the debate today and in the Second Reading which took place in another place. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate that we should devote a major part of the Committee stage of this Bill to discussing this matter. At the same time, it is fair to point out that the electoral system is only one of the major issues which arise on this Bill. Many of those who support direct elections consider, as I do, that the very fact of the holding of direct elections to the European Assembly will strengthen immeasurably democratic control over the institutions of the European Community, and it is essential for us to bear in mind that that is the central objective so far as this piece of legislation is concerned.
The noble Lord, Lord Banks, has, I think, fully and fairly described the regional list system which he proposes instead of the simple majority system contained in the Bill before us. As the noble Lord rightly said, the Government recommended the regional list system to the House of Commons but, as he will he aware, they rejected it. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary said, when commending the regional list system for the whole of the United Kingdom, that he believed this was the most appropriate electoral system for elections to the European Assembly. For that reason, if for no other, I part company with the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, who sought to criticise a particular aspect of it. But the Government, looking at the various choices before them, came to the conclusion that, of all the choices available, the regional list system was preferable.
Therefore, on the merits of the regional list system there is little or no divergence between the supporters of these Amendments and myself. It is therefore entirely reasonable that I should be asked to explain the Government's attitude today. In the rather difficult situation which a number of noble Lords have touched on, to do this I should begin by going over the background and over the progress of the Bill in another place.
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As I mentioned when I moved the Second Reading, the White Paper published in April, 1977, outlined three possible electoral systems for use in direct elections to the European Assembly. These were the simple majority system, the regional list system and the single transferable vote system. In the light of the debates and public discussion on the White Paper, the Government came to the conclusion that the regional list system would be appropriate in the very exceptional circumstances of elections to the European Assembly. The Bill which was introduced in another place by the Government contained two alternative electoral systems to enable that House to form a judgment on the basis of a full understanding of both systems and, as I have indicated, the Government recommended to the other place that they adopt the regional list system of elections.
The Bill was given a Second Reading in another place by 381 votes to 98—a formidable majority. But it is only fair to say that the progress of the Bill was not exactly speedy. On its first day in Committee, debate on the Bill lasted over six hours; on the second day, some four hours; on the third day, over five hours; and, on the fourth day, also over five hours. By that time the Committee of the other place had reached Clause 3 of the Bill and had not discussed Clause 2 which, by a procedural device, had been leapfrogged. There were at that stage (at the time when the Government decided to introduce the guillotine) still 170 Amendments to be discussed; and, no doubt, more would have been tabled before the end of the Committee stage.
In that situation, the Government, as the House are aware, introduced a guillotine Motion which was moved on 26th January after there had been a total of 22 hours of debate on the Bill in Committee on Clauses 1 and 3 of the Bill. However, by that time, as the Committee will know, another place had reached a conclusion on the electoral system that they preferred. They considered the regional list system in principle though not in detail (a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield) and rejected the regional list system by a majority of nearly 100 votes—96 to be precise.
If the Amendments which are before us are carried, inevitably the Bill will

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have to return to another place for further consideration. The Bill will have to wait its turn, and it may not be possible for another place to begin its consideration of Lords' Amendments for some time. When this consideration is begun, it is certain that—perfectly reasonably—the opponents of the Bill as well as the opponents of the regional list system will demand a careful, detailed consideration of the whole regional list system. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, has indicated that this is a very substantial matter indeed. It covers very many pages on the list of Amendments today.
It is certainly true that it might be possible to supplement the provisions of the time-table Motion which was passed last January to limit the time taken in the Commons consideration of Lords' Amendments; but this could itself be a controversial and difficult exercise. Given the decisive nature of the Commons rejection of the regional list system when it was previously considered, it seems very likely—indeed, almost certain—that the House will reach precisely the same conclusion that it did on the previous occasion: namely, that it was not in favour of the regional list system. The size of the majority provides a formidable amount of evidence that that indeed is so. Therefore, after another place had reached its decision the Bill, after possibly fairly prolonged discussion, would come back to this House once again, possibly later in the summer, and we would then be in a position to form a final judgment in the matter.
I make no particular complaint that the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, raised the question of what he regarded as the considerable temporariness so far as the Government's present position is concerned. The noble Earl had a certain amount of fun and none of us would wish to deprive him of that. This point was also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel. In fact, it is a matter for rather more senior members of the Government than myself to decide when a General Election should take place.
That reminds one of the story when in 1928 Governor Al Smith, then Governor of New York State, was approached by a young reporter on the staff of the New
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York Times when standing on Grand Central Station in New York. The young man said to Governor Smith: "Are you going to stand as the Democratic candidate for the presidency of the United States?" Governor Smith looked at the young reporter and said: "Young man, if I had chosen to do so it would not be on the platform of Grand Central Station and to you". I find myself in a remarkably similar position to the reporter on the New York Times. However, I take note of what both noble Lords said. I would make the self-evident point that if this Bill had not reached a position on the Statute Book by the time a General Election was called, manifestly the Bill would not get on the Statute Book until there was a new Parliament.
Let me now look at the alternative position and that is the situation which we would face if these and other Amendments which we are going to debate this afternoon are not pressed. In that situation, I believe that we would be in a position to get Royal Assent for this Bill in May. Otherwise I believe it certainly could be as late as July. As noble Lords will know, the United Kingdom has been subject to some criticism in the Community—indeed, as the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, said, also in this House—for what is alleged to have been our slowness in making provision for direct elections in the European Assembly. I do not want to comment on the merits of that particular proposition because we have gone over this ground on a large number of previous occasions. Nevertheless, the fact is that we have been catching up very significantly in recent months. If the present Bill proceeded to Royal Assent next month, as would be the position if no Amendments were carried, we would then be the fourth or, just conceivably, the fifth Member of the European Economic Community to have completed the passage of the relevant electoral legislation.
Noble Lords will have seen that at the European Heads of Government meeting at Copenhagen last weekend it was decided that the target date for the first elections to the European Assembly should be in the period between 7th and 10th June 1979. This would mean, so far as the United Kingdom was concerned, that the elections would take place on Thursday, 7th June. Of course, the final

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date cannot be ultimately determined by the Council until all the Member States of the Community have ratified the Council's decision of September 1976. It is proposed—and this point has been touched on on a number of occasions this afternoon—that we should work towards a uniform electoral system for elections to the European Assembly. Certainly I would recognise that there will be difficulties in reaching agreement with all Member States on such a uniform system. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that the electoral system proposed in this measure is essentially of an interim nature. The House should recognise that as an extremely important point. We are not talking about the permanent future of our electoral system so far as the European Assembly is concerned; we are talking about an interim judgment on this matter. I believe that the holding of these elections is vastly more important to the future of Europe and to the United Kingdom than the electoral system adopted for what in fact would be the first set of elections.
Therefore, let me sum up. There is no difference in principle whatever between the movers of these Amendments and the Government. Indeed, it would be absurd to suggest there was because my right honourable friend the Home Secretary commended precisely these proposals to the House of Commons when the Bill was in Committee stage there. Nor do I in any way doubt that there is a majority, as a general question of principle, in favour of proportional representation. As the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, pointed out, there was a significant majority so far as the Scotland Bill was concerned. The point which I am putting to the House is this. We are not discussing here simply a question of the principle of what our electoral system should be so far as this particular measure is concerned. What we are discussing is whether we are going to get this measure, as I believe most Members of this House want, on the Statute Book as speedily as possible. I believe that if we are in a position to avoid amending this Bill, this measure will receive the Royal Assent within a few weeks. It seems to me that the case for doing that is overwhelming.
4.19 p.m.
Lord WIGODER: Your Lordships' House has now reached a truly extra
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ordinary position. We are debating in this Committee stage the European Assembly Elections Bill, in which the method of election is a crucial factor. Not one single voice from any part of your Lordships' House has supported the method of election enshrined in the Bill that your Lordships' House is now being asked to pass. There has been nothing but criticism from all parts of the House of the first-past-the-post system as enshrined in this Bill—not one voice raised in favour of it.
Baroness ELLES: The noble Lord may be referring to the Committee stage now, but several Members of your Lordships' House supported the first-past-the-post system in previous debates.
Lord WIGODER: In that case I shall have to be a little careful about my next observation. I was going to say it is hardly surprising that there are in this Chamber very few people who are so besotted by the lust for power for their own political Party that they prefer the first-past-the-post system to a system of fair representation. I do not propose, therefore, to go into the merits of the question of fair voting, of proportional representation, in the course of this debate, because I venture to think that an overwhelming majority of your Lordships would accept that for a consultative Assembly of such crucial importance to the future of Europe as the European Assembly will be, it is essential that all the main strands of political opinion should be fairly represented. I do not believe that is a proposition that will find very much dissent.
The problems that have been posed this afternoon by way of propositions regarding the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Banks come under two headings. First, it is said that perhaps there is another method of proportional representation—the added Member system—which may be rather more effective; in other words, there is a dispute as to the method of proportional representation. Secondly, there is the logistic argument which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, to the effect that it may imperil the passage of the Bill if we pursue this matter any further.
I should like to deal with those two objections. First, as to the method of

811
proportional representation, may I say to the noble Lords, Lord Chelwood, Lord Alport and others, who I know are waiting to support an Amendment on the additional Member system, that it would be a tragedy if we were to lose the opportunity of having a fair system of elections to the European Assembly because of disagreement among ourselves as to which may be the marginally better system of proportional representation.
I accept that criticisms can be made of each system: there may be marginal advantages in one and marginal disadvantages in another. It is perhaps unfortunate that we cannot vote this afternoon on the single transferable vote as being the method of proportional representation we might prefer; but that cannot be done and we have to abide by the position in which we are now debating the regional list system. We shall later, if that is defeated, go on to debate the additional Member system. I venture to suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, and to those who support him, that the differences between us are far less than the matters we have in common, as against those who wish to support the first-past-thepost system in this Bill.
Therefore, the logic of this is that those who wish, with the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, to support the additional Member system should first of all support us on a Division on this regional list system. If this is not successful, we will most certainly support the noble Lord and his colleagues if there is a Division on the alternative system which he chooses to put forward. What is important, surely, is that there should be a system of fair voting; and the details in the difference as between the two systems proposed in these Amendments fade into insignificance against the monstrous inequity that might be perpetrated by having the present system in this Bill—the one that so far has found no single supporter this afternoon. That is all that I wanted to say on the objection which is being raised to the regional list system.
The other matters I want to analyse for a moment are the logistic arguments as to what would happen if this Amendment is carried. The position at the moment is this: the Report stage is due
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in your Lordships' House—I hope I am not revealing any secrets by indicating this—on 27th April, and I believe it is hoped that Third Reading will take place during the first week in May. It will follow therefore that if this Amendment on the regional list system is carried, the Bill can be sent back to the other place within the first week in May. The position will then be this: time will have to be found—
The Earl of MANSFIELD: Before the noble Lord goes on, I do not know whether he was listening to my remarks, but I said that we would have to go through each of these Schedules line by line. Is the noble Lord saying that were this Amendment to be passed he would not recommend that course to this Chamber?
Lord WIGODER: I think we shall find that there is such a vast margin of time available that, even if I were to be deterred, which I am not, by the noble Earl's threat to go through these Amendments line by line, there would still be abundant time to deal with this matter. If this Amendment in its present form goes back to the other place in the first week of May, or indeed in the first week of June or July—I do not think it matters very much —the other place will then have to come to a conclusion on this Amendment No. 1, in other words, to insert:
"('the Regional List System in Great Britain and the Single Transferable Vote system in Northern Ireland, as laid down in this Act.')".
The other place can either accept that Amendment or reject it. If they reject it, then the whole of the rest of the Amendments automatically fall and no further debate of any sort will be necessary. The only question arises as to what happens if the other place accepts the Amendment.
Perhaps 1 should say that if they reject it, certainly we on these Benches—I think I can give this as an undertaking—would not seek to persist any further in the Amendment. So that if the other place were to reject this Amendment when it goes back to them, that would be the end of the matter; the Bill would receive the Royal Assent and nothing would be lost. On the other hand, if the other place were to decide to change their original view and accept the first Amendment on the regional list system for Great Britain and

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the single transferable vote system for Northern Ireland, they would then be committed to the regional list system and to going through the various provisions, as the noble Earl indicated, line by line.
The great virtue of the regional list system, in terms of a timetable, is that it does not require any investigation at all by the Boundary Commissioners. Indeed, the Home Secretary made it clear in the other place—and I shall now quote from a Written Answer, which is therefore perhaps even more of a considered answer than an oral one, on 28th November 1977 at column 69, when he said:
"If a regional list system is adopted, it should be possible to hold elections in June 1978, provided the Bill receives Royal Assent before the Easter Recess".
In other words, the Home Secretary was saying only three months would be necessary after Royal Assent, on the regional list system, before the date of elections. It follows therefore that if we have elections scheduled for next June there would be some 13 months available for the other place to consider in detail the regional list system. They would have to complete their deliberations in 10 months in order to allow a three months' period to elapse between Royal Assent and the date of the elections.
I cannot believe that with good will on all sides—and I believe there is good will on this particular issue—10 months is not far, far longer than is necessary to enable both the other place and your Lordships' House to go through the whole of this Bill once the other place has accepted in principle Amendment No. 1. If that Amendment is rejected after going through this Chamber, nothing is lost. if they accept it, there is ample time for the matter to be gone through in the greatest detail. In those circumstances, I would suggest that the timetable arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Harris—and I accept that they are being put forward entirely in good faith are quite unfounded, and that it is perfectly practicable for your Lordships to pass this series of Amendments today without in any way prejudicing the holding of elections.
Lord O'HAGAN: Before the noble Lord sits down, I wonder whether he can inform me, if not other Members of this Chamber, whether he has given the true position about what happens in another
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place to Amendments passed by your Lordships. Is it not true that the Leader of the other place has to find time, if and when time is available, for the consideration of Amendments which go back to them? And in the present choppy seas in which the Government are sailing, is it not more likely that consideration of your Lordships' Amendments to this Bill might be delayed for some considerable time? Or has the noble Lord some great undertaking or understanding with the Government that this will not happen?
Lord WIGODER: I have only the same recollection as many of your Lordships, that, when it is desired to do so, Amendments can be passed by your Lordships' House, considered in the other place and returned to this House within 48 hours. It has happened over and over again, within all our recollections, and frequently in the course of the last few Sessions of Parliament.
Baroness ELLES: Is the noble Lord suggesting that, for instance, the Amendments which are down to Schedules 1, 2, 3 and 4 and which have been proposed by his Party, will be dealt with by another place within 48 hours?
Lord WIGODER: Of course I am not. I am trying to make it clear that, once the other place have come to their decision on Amendment No. 1, there will, if they reject that Amendment, be no necessity for any further consideration of the matter. The rejection will then be back here within 48 hours. We shall not, of course, proceed to insist on the Amendment. That will be the end of the matter and there will he no delay, other than the 48 hours or the three or four days which are necessary. If, on the other hand, the other place accepts Amendment No. 1, there will be months and months in which they will be able to work through the rest of the Amendments in detail.
Baroness ELLES: I wonder whether the noble Lord would analyse his timetable a little more carefully. All the Parties with which I have been in conversation about the preparation for direct elections have informed me—and I may have been misinformed—that they will need at least six months for the selection of candidates and for the organisation within the constituencies, whether they be regional or

815
single-Member constituencies. I therefore assume that six months from June would take us up to the beginning of December, so I do not understand the calculation.
Lord WIGODER: I am sorry to keep on leaping up in this way. But, once Amendment No. 1 had been carried in another place, which would happen very shortly on this view of the matter, people would know at once which were the regions and there would be no difficulty about a political Party adopting its candidates. I am relieved and gratified to discover, from the noble Baroness's observations, that the Liberal Party is already far in advance of the Conservatives in the preparations for the European Assembly elections.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: May I make one point? I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, for putting him in the position of moving the Government Front Bench in his direction, but may I put to him one difficulty which appears to arise from what he has said. He has put his argument very fairly but, in doing so, has rather over-simplified the timetable problems which I endeavoured to point out when I spoke.
I say that for this reason. If these Amendments are to be sent down to another place, I am afraid that there is absolutely no question of them coming back here in 48 hours. I am not sure what example the noble Lord has in mind; it may well be some piece of legislation, such as a prevention of terrorism measure, where there is widespread bipartisan agreement that the measure has to be hurried through because the security of the State is involved. But I am afraid that, with a Bill of this kind, which has already been subject to a guillotine Motion, there would undoubtedly be demands for a much more protracted discussion in another place than a simple period of 48 hours. One has to reconcile oneself to this. One has to face up to this problem.
The other place took a clear and, I think, emphatic decision against the regional list system by a majority of nearly 100 votes. I regret that they took that decision. It was not taken on the basis of the Government's advice, which asked them to support the regional list system.
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But I know of no evidence to suggest that the other place is likely to take a contrary view, and all that would happen is that we should spend a very significant period of time indeed and still end up with something remarkably similar to the Bill as it now stands. That, I fear, is the difficulty that faces the noble Lord on this point. Iaccept entirely the merits of the proposal. It is, in fact, the Parliamentary problems to which I have endeavoured to draw attention which seem to me to create difficulties that have not altogether been met.
Lord WIGODER: The noble Lord will agree, will he not, that the number of votes cast in favour of proportional representation has increased, consecutively at every single vote, and that, on the last occasion, there were over 200 who voted in favour of it? The noble Lord would therefore not suggest that there is any impropriety, in referring the matter back for reconsideration, or that that a very substantial increase may not again be achieved next time, would he?
Lord WADE: May I make just one short point? There have, very properly, been considerable discussions about the tactical situation, but I should like to return to the general principle. I recall very well the beginning of the 1950s, when discussions took place between the Party leaders as to whether the delegation to the Council of Europe—for this was long before we had reached the situation of elections to the European Parliament; it was in the earlier days—should consist only of representatives of the Government and of the official Opposition, or whether, so far as possible, the delegation should broadly represent the political opinions in the Westminster Parliament. I am glad to say that the decision was arrived at that, so far as possible, the delegation should represent the different political opinions, and I think that all the other countries had already, or have since, reached the same decision of principle. That principle has been maintained—it is true not by elections, but by nominations —as regards membership of delegations from those early days in the European movement up to the present day.
Therefore, we are not being asked to embark upon something entirely new, whereas those who oppose this Amend

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ment and ask for the first-past-the-post system are asking us to depart from a principle which has been observed over many years. We are being asked by the proposers of the Amendment, which I support, to maintain a policy which I think is right and one to which we ought to adhere.
Lord BANKS: I wonder whether I may just comment briefly on one or two of the criticisms which have been voiced during the course of our discussions on this Amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, said that he considered that the regional list system was difficult to understand, but I myself cannot understand why he should think that. It seems to be very simply explained. All you do is divide the country up into regions and so many Members are returned for each region. Within the regions, candidates are adopted by Parties up to the number of seats which are to be filled. The candidates are shown in Party groups on the ballot. The votes for each Party group are added up, and the Members are allocated in proportion to the votes cast. I think that that is a simple principle and easy to understand.
The noble Earl said that there was no emphasis on the individual; that the Party took priority. There, again, I would join issue with him, because the individual elector going into the polling booth is asked to select an individual and to vote for that individual—
Baroness ELLES: Will the noble Lord allow me to intervene? According to the regions in Schedule 3, which is Amendment No. 26, there are to be 14 candidates in the South-East region of England. This would imply that the smaller Parties would also have to put forward 14 candidates, who certainly would not be so well-known as, for example, 14 candidates of the noble Lord's Party, of the Party opposite or of my own Party. Would he think it fair that somebody who was an excellent candidate and who had 10,000 votes should, when the other 13 candidates were totally unknown, have no chance whatsoever of being elected under the system?
Lord BANKS: It is entirely up to the Parties to decide how many candidates they wish to put up. They might feel
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that it was to their advantage to have a full number of candidates and that their group would get a larger vote in that way. They might feel that that would not be so, and that a smaller number of candidates would secure all the votes for their Party which were available in that area. How many candidates they put up would be a matter for local regional decision. However, the point I was making was that the individual elector did in fact put his cross against an individual on the list.
Then it was said that the formula for the allocation of seats was unsatisfactory. That formula was criticised, but it is the same formula as the one which the House approved earlier this week in connection with the added Member system. So far as this formula is concerned, there is no difference. Under the added Member system, it is applied only for the topping-up Members. Under this system, it would be applied for them all, but there is no difference in that formula—one which the House has already approved this week.
A comment was made about adding in the votes of a candidate who has died. If a candidate dies between the time of the votes being cast and the time of the votes being counted, it is only right that his vote should be added in if one wishes to get the total of all the votes which have been cast in that particular Election for that particular Party. Then it was said that the regional list system is totally alien and entirely new. Of course it is new, but it is not totally alien. The elector still goes into the polling booth and records an "X" vote for the candidate of his choice, exactly as he does at present. So I do not think that he would find anything particularly alien about that.
The noble Lord, Lord Alport, said that because we had selected the added Member system for Scotland we should stick by it for Europe. Certainly there are arguments for the added Member system for Europe. However, I think that we have to realise that the circumstances are different, as I suggested earlier, and for the reasons which I gave earlier there are grounds for saying that the regional list system, which bears some similarity to the added Member system, is the more suitable and more appropriate system for the European elections.

819
A great deal of the discussion has turned on the question of timing. I do not want to go into that matter any further; it was very fully and ably dealt with by my noble friend Lord Wigoder. He made it clear that there are very good grounds for believing that if this Committee were to pass Amendment No. 1 today, it would not prevent the passage of the Bill and would not give grounds for delay. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, feels fairly convinced that the other place will take the same view of the matter. It may or it may not do so, but if the noble Lord is right in supposing that it does, then, as my noble friend Lord Wigoder showed, this matter will be determined very quickly on Amendment No. 1. There will be no need for any long and protracted debate, although, as my noble friend also pointed out, the pressure would be less if the other system were to be adopted. There would therefore be more room for a longer debate, if one were required in that case.
I believe that Members of the Committee as a whole feel that the proportional representation system is right. The regional list system is undoubtedly satisfactory and one to which the Government themselves have given considerable consideration. Indeed, in the first instance they presented it to the other House, so we are not throwing upon the Government machine a system to which they have given no thought. It is a system for which they are prepared.
I think it is appropriate that, bearing in mind the strong view that there is in this Committee, we should give the other place a chance to have second thoughts. Because I take that view and because my view is shared by my noble friends, I feel that we must test the opinion of the Committee on this Amendment.
4.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 68; Not-Contents, 123.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Rochester, Bp.

Alexander of Potterhill, L.

Foot, L.

Rochester, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Gladwyn, L.

St. Davids, V.

Amherst, E.

Grey, E.

Seear, B. [Teller.]

Ampthill, L.

Gridley, L.

Segal, L.

Amulree, L.

Hampton, L.

Shinwell, L.

Avebury, L.

Hanworth, V.

Simon, V.

Aylestone, L.

Hunt, L.

Stamp, L.

Banks, L. [Teller.]

Killearn, L.

Strathspey, L.

Barrington, V.

Kimberley, E.

Swansea, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Listowel, E.

Swaythling, L.

Birdwood, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Tanlaw, L.

Blake, L.

Lovat, L.

Tevito, L.

Boothby, L.

Mackie of Benshire, L.

Thurlow, L.

Brockway, L.

McNair, L.

Thurso, V.

Byers, L.

Murray of Gravesend, L.

Wade, L.

Caccia, L.

Norwich, V.

Westbury, L.

Chitnis, L.

O'Brien of Lothbury, L.

White, B.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Ogmore, L.

Wigoder, L.

Craigavon, V.

Platt, L.

Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.

Croft, L.

Radcliffe-Maud, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Cromartie, E.

Reigate, L.

Younger of Leckie, V.

De Ramsey, L.

Robson of Kiddington, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Cudlipp, L.

Ailesbury, M.

Carrington, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Champion, L.

Daventry, V.

Belstead, L.

Chesham, L.

Davidson

Berkeley, B.

Clancarty, E.

De Freyne, L.

Birk, B.

Clitheroe, L.

Denham, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Clwyd, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Bowden, L.

Collison, L.

Dormer, L.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Crathorne, L.

Eccles, V.

Ellenborough, L.

Ilchester, E.

Romney, E.

Elles, B.

Inchyra, L.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Jacques, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L. (L. Chancellor)

Janner, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Kilmarnock, E.

Saint Oswald, L.

Falkland, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Sandys, L.

Ferrers, E.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Sharples, B.

Fortescue, E.

Lockwood, B.

Sligo, M.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Long, V.

Spens, L.

Gainford, L.

Loudoun, C.

Stedman, B. [Teller.]

Gaitskell, L.

Lyell, L.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Garner, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Stone, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Mancroft, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Glendevon, L.

Mansfield, E.

Strathclyde, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Marley, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Goronwy-Roberts, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Swinton, E.

Gray, L.

Monck, V.

Tenby, V.

Greenway, L.

Morris, L.

Tranmired, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Trevelyan, L.

Hale, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Tweeddale, M.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Northchurch, B.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Hatherton, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Vickers, B.

Hawke, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Vivian, L.

Henderson, L.

Onslow, E.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]

Hives, L.

Pannell, L.

Ward of North Tyneside, B.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Peart, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Willis, L.

Hood, V.

Pender, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Perth, E.

Wise, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Wolfenden, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Porritt, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4.55 p.m.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Method of election]:
[Manuscript Amendment not moved.]
[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]
Lord CHELWOOD Lord CHELWOOD moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 2, line 3, after ("2") insert ("and Schedule (Election of Additional Representatives)").
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I ask permission to refer to consequential Amendments. Amendments to introduce the additional Member system into the Bill were tabled in another place, but unfortunately not debated owing to the fact that they were technically out of order. My noble friends—if I may be permitted to call them that—and I have tabled these Amendments to ensure that this alternative method of election could be considered in Parliament and, as can be seen, this is an all-Party proposition.
These Amendments seek to replace the first-past-the-post system now in the Bill
822
by the additional Member system. It is quite clear from the result of the Division on 4th April when the same subject was extensively debated in your Lordships' House in relation to the Scotland Bill, that this House is at least receptive to the need for changes in the electoral system, if only in certain selected cases. I would remind your Lordships that the vote on that occasion was two to one in favour of the additional Member system. Very strong arguments were advanced on the Scotland Bill for proportional representation, and in my belief there are even stronger arguments for its inclusion in the European Assembly Elections Bill.
I should like first to explain, as briefly as possible, how the additional Member system works. It is clearly described in new Schedule 2 in the Marshalled List on page 12, in paragraphs 8 to 12. Like the Bill, our proposals do not affect Northern Ireland, where three Members are due to be elected to go to the European Parliament by the single transferable vote. Under our proposition England, Scotland and Wales would be divided into 59 single-Member constituencies-50 in England, 6 in Scotland and 3 in Wales. These 59 constituencies, instead of the 78 provided for in the Bill, would be formed by grouping existing Westminster constituencies exactly as provided for in Part II of Schedule 2 to the Bill. The average size

823
of the constituency—because we suggest there should be fewer—would be about 670,000, according to my pocket calculator, instead of just over half a million as there would be if the Bill were not amended. The 59 Members would be elected in the usual way by the first-past-the-post system. The remaining 19 seats out of the total of 78 in England, Scotland and Wales, would be distributed to Parties, which we define in paragraph 19 of Part III of the new Schedule, which is on page 14 of the Marshalled List, the Parties nominating in order of preference the additional Members they would like to see elected.
Each voter would have two votes on a single divided ballot paper. In the first vote he would vote for a constituency Member on the first-past-the-post system; in the second vote he would express his preference for a Party. The total Party votes would then be counted in each of the three regions, England, Scotland and Wales, and any Party winning more than 5 per cent. of the total Party votes cast in that region would become eligible for additional seats. We have thought it right to put in a 5 per cent. threshold to eliminate Parties or splinter groups with insignificant electoral support and we have thought it right to treat the regions separately, to give the additional Members some regional ties and responsibilities and to avoid to some extent the remoteness of a national list.
Finally, the calculation of additional seats made by dividing the total Party votes in each region by the number of constituency seats won by that Party (if any) plus one seat, the Party with the highest average—the system in practice is sometimes known as the "highest average formula "—takes the first additional seat, which goes to the candidate at the top of that Party's list, unless he has already been elected as a constituency Member, and the calculation is repeated until all additional seats have been allocated. It may sound a little complicated. I have done my best to explain it as briefly and simply as I can. In fact I think it is quite simple and it is based on a system which has been tried for more than 30 years in West Germany, which incidentally a Labour Government did a lot to help to design.
What are the advantages of the additional Member system? First, the result reflects far more closely the wishes of the voters than the first-past-the-post system. A Party winning few constituency seats, or even none, but with 5 per cent. or more of the total Party votes in one of the three regions gets a roughly proportional number of seats in the final count.
It is not easy to transpose General Election results into a result of an election for the European Parliament using AMS, but I have tried. It is quite interesting to look at what would probably have been the result in the 1974 General Election. In that Election, using the system we recommend, the Labour Party would have won 32 seats, the Conservative Party 29 and the Liberals 15, of which 14 would have been additional Member seats and only one first-past-the-post. It is also interesting to note in this calculation that the variation between the percentage of votes for each of the three Parties and the percentage of seats gained by them is not more than 1 per cent. in any of the three instances where the three major Parties are concerned.
It is even more interesting to look at what would have happened two years later when there was a large swing against the Government in a series of by-elections. It is, of course, very unlikely indeed that such a swing would be reflected in a General Election; I think we all know that. None the less, taking the worst case is interesting. The result at that time, had the by-elections been reflected in a General Election, would have been that the Conservative Party would have won 65 out of 78 seats, the Labour Party five out of 78, and the Liberal Party no seats at all I do not think that would have been a very satisfactory result. It is in fact an example of the gross distortion that can result from first-past-the-post, to which reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, earlier, in the debate on the previous Amendment. But using the additional Member system in the same calculation, with this big swing against the Government, the result would probably have been that instead of 65 seats the Conservatives would have had 48, instead of five seats the Labour Party would have had 16, and instead of no seat at all the Liberal Party would have had eight. I confess that that is not fully

825
proportional, but it is none the less a great deal fairer, as noble Lords will quickly see, than the wildly distorted result under the first-past-the-post system. The result would in fact have been fully proportional had I used a slightly different calculation, such as has been suggested for Scotland; for instance, one-third of the Members being additional Members instead of one-quarter, as proposed in our Amendment.
Another advantage, as we see it, is that the additional Member system gives a reasonable chance for independents to win seats; I wish that it gave a better one. Thirdly, I believe it preserves single Member constituencies, which we all, I think, rightly value, while giving proportional representation to Parties and ensuring that significant minorities are not excluded. In other words, it marries the two systems, and in some ways I think gets the best of both worlds. Fourthly, it is very easy to understand and equally easy to administer. Lastly, it would pave the way for subsequent direct elections, to which reference was made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Harris.
Bearing in mind that in the countries of all our eight Community partners some form of proportional representation is going to be used for the elections in June of next year, is it not very important indeed that Britain should speak with authority based on some experience, at any rate, if not then, when agreement has to be sought on a uniform system for the next round of elections, as is required by the Treaty? May I add as a rider that, although in our Amendments we have specified 19 additional Members, about one-quarter of the total, AMS is a theme with many variations, of which our proposals are only one. It could easily be changed as consequential Amendments are discussed.
I realise that a few noble Lords dislike the whole concept of proportional representation—that was made clear during the debate on the Scotland Bill—and they would regard its inclusion in this Bill, as was said then, as the thin end of the wedge. I believe—and this I think is an important point—that this is the opposite of the truth; and I say that because I think that a blatantly unfair result in an election to the European Parliament, which could come about, would only increase the demand for
826
electoral reform in the country, a demand which is already a strong one, and is, I think, growing. Familiar first-past-the-post certainly is, and this has been the main argument for it; not, I think, a very good one. Is it perhaps a case where familiarity really has bred some contempt! It appears to many people as far too crude and blunt an instrument to satisfy voters, especially moderate middle-of-the-roaders, who regard themselves not as a silent majority but as a silenced majority. Political stability in this country depends very heavily on such people. Perhaps Disraeli had these thoughts in mind—who knows?—when he described represensative government as
"that fatal drollery".
After direct elections the influence of the European Parliament is bound to increase, as indeed it must if the Community is to become more democratic. Greater power, I am sure, will follow greater influence. How essential it is that additional powers should be given only to a European Parliament that genuinely reflects the views not only of other Community members, as it will, but of the United Kingdom too. Scepticism and apathy are deadly enemies of democracy. They are likely to be accentuated by very large constituencies, and, as yet, too little understanding of what the election is all about. So it is surely crucial to choose a system in which voters can have real confidence.
I mean no disrespect to another place, where I spent almost 30 happy years, when I assert that your Lordships' House sometimes reflects public opinion much more accurately. Our open minds about the whole subject of proportional representation is only one example of this, to which the Economist drew attention last week. I strongly recommend to your Lordships these Amendments, which would transform a disappointing Bill with a serious flaw in it, in our view, into one much more worthy of its historic importance. I beg to move.
5.8 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: I rise to support the Amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood. I feel, however, that the stuffing has gone out of the debate. With all the flexible arrangements that we are supposed to have in your Lordships' House, I would think

827
we would do better to have the main debate on whether the electoral system now in the Bill should stay there, and not have two debates on alternative systems to replace it. The main issue is really whether the electoral system in the Bill should remain there. Considerations of time and circumstance weigh heavily upon a decision to change it rather than upon the choice of alternatives to replace it.
One of the curiosities of the present Parliamentary situation is that what the Liberal Party want, and what the Government said they wanted, is apparently unobtainable. I think that there are some miracles that your Lordships' House cannot perform, and I do not think your Lordships' House can give the Government what they wanted and what the Liberal Party wanted when the House of Commons denied it by such an overwhelming majority. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, pointed out that on a free vote the electoral system in the Bill was confirmed. If we were deciding on an electoral system for the European Assembly which was irrevocable, or almost irrevocable, there would be very strong reasons for making a stand. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, stressed that this is not the finality of the matter. Perhaps the most overwhelming arguments in favour of a system of proportional representation for elections to the European Assembly are that other countries have it; the aim is to have a uniform system throughout the Community, and, whatever we do about our own home electoral system, we are expected to conform, with the maximum degree of agreement, with a universal system for the European Parliament.
The case for not delaying the Bill is very strong. There are circumstances in which we must remember that we, in your Lordships' House, are part of the composite institution of Parliament. Parliament as a whole must deliver. It is the burden upon Parliament as a whole that determines whether we can perform our task successfully and function in the best interests of the country and of our relations with other nations. The burdens on Parliament this Session are extremely heavy. Moreover, we have already taken a decision on the Scotland Bill which we consider to be of great importance, because we decided something that could not be changed so easily, or is likely
828
to be changed so soon, as in the case of the European Assembly. Therefore, we took a stand on that issue and I supported the change. However, to add this problem to the difficult problem which another place has already—having regard to the decisive vote taken on the main issue in another place—is overdoing it, and we must make a choice about our present priorities.
The main aim is to achieve the principle and a system of direct elections, to make the European Assembly more representative and to add to the authority behind what few powers it has. The European Assembly is, to some extent, like your Lordships' House. It has limited powers. However, at present—and this applies to both the European Assembly and your Lordships' House—it lacks the authority to use those powers. So, frequently we shrink from using the powers that we have because we are afraid that we are not legitimate enough to use them without challenge from elsewhere. The Bill will undoubtedly add to the authority of the European Assembly when it is accompanied by direct elections elsewhere.
Had I taken part in the debate that took place earlier, I would have said that there is every reason for amending the Bill except that of commonsense. Those of us of firm principle on these matters—and, modestly, I claim to be one—must be realistic enough and have enough—dare I use the word?—"statesmanship", to say that that is how the situation looks at present in the general conspectus of Parliamentary work and the obligations of the nation.
Speaking for myself, it is very difficult indeed to go further in this debate without dwelling to some extent upon the principle of proportional representation for elections generally. Different considerations arise. I have asked myself: Why was the change in the Bill to a system of proportional representation so strongly opposed in another place? I think that to some extent it was due to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, referred to as the "thin end of the wedge complex". Whatever may be the arguments in favour of proportional representation for elections to the European Parliament, a number of Members of another place did not want it because they believed that

829
when once established there would be a precedent for its extension more generally to our own system of domestic elections. They swallowed Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland was such a grievous example of how a first-past-the-post system wrecked the unity of the Province. They had to concede that minority representation was indispensable to any convention that was to be held. We are, indeed, providing separately for Northern Ireland in the Bill. I call that the "thin-end-of-the-wedge syndrome".
I shall not detain the House for much longer, but I believe that even when the European Assembly has a system of proportional representation—and that is bound to come—we may still be fighting the battle for proportional representation for elections to our own Parliament and our own local authorities. That battle will depend largely, not so much on convincing people that there are preferable alternatives, as on the demonstration, manifestly to be seen, that our existing system is breaking down. That is what I believe will bring about a change of attitude towards the electoral system.
Our system of aggressive, mobilising and competitive politics is continuing a division politically, industrially and socially which is deeply harmful to the spirit and unity of the country—a spirit which is so badly needed to see us through the years to come. I have borrowed a phrase from the Reith Lectures to which I listened earlier—what is needed in this country is a new fraternity in the face of the perils confronting us economically in the world today. Those perils are so formidable that if we are not blinded by the sparkle of the oil we must feel gravely doubtful whether this country will survive as an economic and industrial nation in the world of tomorrow. In my view, nothing that maintains the divisive nature of our society should be tolerated a moment longer than necessary.
A system of proportional representation for domestic elections would help to cement the nation and bring it to where it must be if it is to function at all; namely, very much in the centre. At present, under our system of mobilising, competitive politics the two main Parties begin with noises of extremism, or radical policies with either revolutionary or reactionary tendencies. Those are the
830
issues that are put to the electorate. When one of the Parties becomes the Government and the other the Opposition they are gradually pushed into the centre. We have seen that happen over the past 10 years time after time. Despite all that, it is happening now, and that is what will happen again, if, when we have an election, the country supports the two-Party system at all. It may decide that what it has seen in the past few months is not a bad way of achieving consensus politics and it may find a way of continuing that. But that remains to be seen. However, I think that we must help the European Assembly to get proportional representation. Then, those of us who support the change in this country must devote all our energies to convincing the British people that a similar change is necessary here.
5.20 p.m.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, I rise to support the Amendment tabled in my name; in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, and so eloquently defended by him; in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, who I do not think is present; and in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby—though from his remarks I rather gather that his name has crept on to the Amendment by mistake. It seems that he does not now propose to press the Amendment and on the whole is rather against it. However, I leave that rather unfortunate state of affairs where it is.
I must begin with a slight apology. During the Second Reading debate I said that, although I believed that the AM system was probably the best—perhaps even better than the regional list system—I did not propose to move an Amendment urging it because I was informed that I would not have very much support in this Committee, and that there was not the slightest chance of getting it passed in another place, if it got that far. I have changed my view on that since I have been told that the facts are not exactly as they were represented to me. In any case, I was encouraged by the tremendous vote in favour of PR for Scotland on the identical system—namely, the AM system—which we passed the other day.
As I understand it, there is a considerable majority of this Committee in favour of

831
PR even for this country and a vast majority of Members of this House who favour some kind of proportional representation for direct elections to the European Parliament. I think that that is undeniable. Nevertheless, as we know, the House of Commons has rejected PR in the form suggested to it. I have always maintained that the first-past-the-post system for application to Europe would be a total disaster, if only for the reason so often given by other noble Lords; that is, that it would have a most deplorable effect on the working of the directly-elected European Assembly.
There is no doubt that, if, as is very likely, there was a great discrepancy in the vote in this country, we might have a system in which the Party which had an enormous majority of the British membership of the Assembly nevertheless, after a period of months, became a minority Party in this country. Therefore, for five years a considerable minority in this country would have an overwhelming majority in the European Parliament, which would upset the entire balance of its resolutions passed. It would thus gravely affect the whole influence of this Parliament in the Community—which we hope would be considerable—even though it would not necessarily have any formal additional powers.
It is quite deplorable that the first-past-the-post decision was taken in another place for reasons which, I regret to say, were directly connected with Party political considerations and even with purely personal ones. If PR is ever adopted in this country, some Members of the other place would undoubtedly think that they would lose their seats. Therefore, many of them voted against PR for Europe because, by analogy, they thought that it might be applied in this country, and, if so, would be against their own interests. It was almost as easy as that. However, the House of Commons has taken this decision and we have just rejected the Amendment of my noble friends Lord Banks and Lord Wigoder urging the substitution of the regional list system for the first-past-the-post system.
Although a great many noble Lords are in favour of some kind of PR—indeed, a number of your Lordships would, in principle, be in favour of the regional
832
list system—I think that many noble Lords rejected it because of the quite powerful arguments put forward by the Government, and, indeed, by noble Lords on Opposition Benches, over the timetable. My noble friend Lord Wigoder has dealt with that point and I shall not elaborate on it. Nevertheless, Amendment No. 1 in favour of the regional list system is water under the bridge; it is a pity, but there it is.
However, we can still approve the Amendment standing in my name and in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, in favour of the additional Members system. Apart from the advantages—which have already been urged in its favour by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, and indeed also by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, in relation to Scotland the other day—there is another very considerable argument. If we have only 60 constituencies which would be directly-elected under the first-past-the-post system—which, I gather, is part of the AM system—we would get larger constituencies which would have one Member to represent each of them in the ordinary way, in the first-past-the-post way. We would then have 18 or 20 Members who would not represent any constituency, but who, nevertheless, would bring the Party balance to bear in the general representation. Those 18 or 20 Members would, therefore, have much more time to devote themselves purely to European matters in Strasbourg or elsewhere, and they could return here and make speeches if they wished. However, they would have no definite constituency obligations; they would be free to devote themselves more to European matters, which might he in the general interest. That is an additional argument to those already given by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood.
Again, there is the consideration—which, after all, is not immaterial—that this system, or something very like it, has operated in Germany for a great many years with the greatest success. No one can say that the German system is undemocratic, unrepresentative or does not work well; it works extremely well. Why it should be thought that it would not work well for elections to the European Parliament, I cannot conceive. There is no logical argument against it. One can pick

833
occasional holes in it perhaps, but they can easily be dealt with, and there is no reason to suppose that they could not be dealt with in Committee, if it is approved in principle.
The timetable argument in respect of the additional Members system is not a good one to use against its adoption. Let us suppose that the Bill returns to the other place with this Amendment agreed to. The principle, of course, would be adopted; then the Commissioners could be appointed fairly soon to delineate the 60-odd constitutencies that would be necessary. I do not think that it would lead to enormous debate on detail in the other place. If necessary, the Government could apply the guillotine. At any rate, it would be a new idea.
The advantage of putting this case before the House of Commons is that it does not ask them to eat their words or to approve something which they have disapproved by an enormous majority. It simply says, "We, in this House, believe for the reasons given, that in principle, proportional representation is necessary. That being so, surely you recognise that we are not asking you to reverse first-past-the-post. We only ask that we have first-past-the-post for a reduced number of constituencies. But let it be made more democratic, certainly more representative, by the adoption of a system whereby a few additional Members are appointed in accordance with the votes cast in the country, which is perfectly democratic". We are not therefore asking the House of Commons to eat their words. We are saying, "First-past-the-post, Yes; but for goodness sake, make it more democratic and representative".
Is it not possible that some Members of the other place might revise their view on that argument? Might not even some of the members of the official Opposition, who are Europeans—there are a great many of them—who voted against the original list system, be attracted to this particular system? Why should they not be? If they were, would the Government really oppose it? Would the Government say, "No, it is a regional list, and what we put forward then and what we are putting forward now we will not change at all"? Why should not the Government change their view and say that the additional Member system is
834
a good one? What is the argument against it? Have they got an argument against it? We have not heard it. I do not believe they have.
From what I have said you may realise that what I feel is necessary is that this House, which believes in proportional representation, should have the courage of its convictions and demonstrate in its favour for direct elections to the European Assembly in the same way as it demonstrated in favour of proportional representation for the additional Member system in respect of Scotland. if it did that, it might have a good effect on the country as a whole. It would show that this House, at any rate, is democratically-minded and in favour of a good representative system for the direct elections to the European Parliament. It is not inconceivable that, if we passed it in this House today, it might be accepted in the House of Commons tomorrow. Anyhow, it is with stressing that sentiment that I would ask your Lordships—and I am sure it is Lord Chelwood's intention to divide on this issue—to show your devotion to proportional representation today.
5.32 p.m.
Lord BLAKE: I should like to support what has been said by my noble friend Lord Chelwood and by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. I had some responsibility, as chairman of the Commission on Electoral Reform—the Hansard Society's Commission—for introducing the additional Member system. Although, as noble Lords have said, it has been a familiar system in Germany for 30 years, I think that this was the first occasion on which it drew much attention in this country.
I do not want to go into any detail about it. It has been clearly and well explained by my noble friend Lord Chelwood, and it was explained when the Committee discussed a similar Amendment to the Scotland Bill. It has certain advantages over an original list system, although I certainly was prepared to vote for that system (and did so just now on the Amendment that was lost) because I would regard almost any proportional system, whatever it might be, as preferable to the first-past-the-post system for European elections.
There is no defence at all for the first-past-the-post system in terms of the

835
European Assembly. There are quite powerful arguments for it in terms of Westminster; there are rather less powerful arguments for Edinburgh. I think it is wrong for both, but I see the case on both sides there. But for a European Assembly, which is a purely consultative body which does not have to make or sustain a Government, the stock argument for the first-past-the-post system simply does not apply. It is entirely irrelevant.
The great argument that is normally used for the first-past-the-post system is that it makes possible firm government with a clear majority. There may he different opinions about the desirability of this, or the effectiveness of the system even in those terms, but those are at least arguments. I cannot see any arguments in favour of the first-past-the-post system for a European Assembly which is purely consultative. Surely what is wanted there is a body which is representative of all shades of opinion. The one thing which no one in their senses has ever argued in favour of the first-past-the-post system is that it is representative of minorities at all fairly in any rational sense of the use of that adverb—or, if it is, it is only by accident and rarely.
I am in favour of the additional Member system because it has certain advantages over other forms of proportional representation. In particular it preserves the constituency Member link. This is a matter to which much importance was attached in the discussions on this question in another place when the regional list system was being discussed. Unfortunately the additional Member system was not raised in another place. It did not come up. I share Lord Gladwyn's view that this is a matter which is new. This could be rationally reconsidered in another place. It is not asking them to eat their words, in the sense in which I suppose you might say the passing of an original list Amendment might be said to do. There is a great deal to be said for the additional Member system. I am not convinced, though I realise that powerful arguments have been used that way, that the effect of carrying this Amendment would be to lose the Bill, or to have the various alarming consequences which various noble Lords have suggested. I hope that this Amendment will be pressed to a Division, and carried.
Lord A LPORT: I wish to make a short contribution. I shall not detain the Committee for longer than is necessary. I was much struck by the point that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, made when he said that the stuffing had gone out of this debate, partly as a result of the fact that so many of the issues were in principle discussed on the last Amendment. He then indicated that we should show some statesmanship in not pursuing the proposals which are before the Committee at the present moment, in view, no doubt, of the serious forecast that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, made as to the possible consequences if we substantially amended the Bill.
It is, of course, one of those occasions when statesmanship is identified w ith expediency. What we are being asked to do is not to pursue an Amendment in the interests of proportional representation in relation to this Bill under the threat that the House of Commons will not pass any legislation in order to provide election to the European Parliament by the middle of next year. What I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is saying on behalf of the Government—although, as I understand it, the Prime Minister has given an undertaking to his colleagues in Europe that there will be elections to the European Parliament by the time agreed next summer—is that they are not able, and indeed not prepared, to take the action which would be necessary in order to ensure that, even though this Amendment was pressed to a Division and carried in this House and went back to the House of Commons, it was debated and if necessary reversed in the House of Commons, so that it came back to this House in time for it to become law in sufficient time to enable us to carry out the electoral processes by the middle of next year.
If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I find the threat which has been developed during his speech, and referred to by others during this debate, that this is what will happen if we succeed in persuading the Committee that our point of view is a correct one, is something which is surprising from a Government already committed to direct elections to the European Parliament in the middle of next year. Of course we know the reason for this, and 1 hope 1 am not doing an injustice to anyone; the reason is that

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in the House of Commons the leadership of both the main Parties is against proportional representation. Having so far as the Scottish Bill is concerned had to concede that at any rate the House of Lords is in favour of proportional representation in respect of Scotland, here is a good opportunity to prevent proportional representation from being extended further to the European Parliament. At any rate, it has half a chance of being extended further—as a result of a vote in this House. That is understandable.
The management of politics is a duty of the leadership, no doubt. However, I think that it would be worth while reminding the leadership that the argument, which is the main argument against proportional representation both in relation to Scotland and in relation now to this proposal with regard to Europe, is that it is the thin end of the wedge. What does that really mean? It means that the other place, and those who are opposed to proportional representation in the other place, believe that if the British people have an opportunity of exercising an electoral franchise on proportional representation in an election, they will realise that it is the fairest and most just way of ensuring that their views are properly represented in the Assembly concerned. and therefore that they will press even more strongly for the same changes to be made and applied to Parliament at Westminster. Therefore, the argument apparently is that we must not allow the people of this country to have an opportunity of exercising their franchises in this way because it may, in the end, go against the interests of the House of Commons, as opposed to being in the interests of the nation as a whole. I think that is a dangerous argument for the House of Commons to put forward.
One of these days there will be a change to proportional representation in this country. There will be a change that will apply to the House of Commons. I should have thought that the best way in which this change should take place is by gradually acclimatising, so to speak, the electors of Britain to proportional representation, first of all in Scotland, in Wales, as has already been done in Northern Ireland, and also in Europe at the same time. In that way we shall achieve a transition which will be easy, whereas in the other way there will be a sudden demand for
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electoral reform for this country, for the Parliament at Westminster, which may cause far more dislocation to the institutions of Parliament than otherwise would have been the case.
5.42 p.m.
Lord MONSON: A few minutes ago Lord Houghton of Sowerby spoke about cementing the country. He also spoke about why the joint Amendment would not apply to Northern Ireland. Therefore, I think that the moment has come for me to voice my disquiet—a disquiet I know to be shared by certain other noble Lords—about the differential treatment meted out to Northern Ireland by the Bill as it stands, by the Bill as it would have been amended by the Amendment which has just been defeated, and by the Bill as it may yet be amended by the Amendments that we are discussing now.
We are not alone in this disquiet. On 2nd February, this year, the Conservative Party in another place, on what was effectively a free vote, because only a one-line Whip was imposed, voted by a majority of exactly 10 to 1 to treat Northern Ireland in exactly the same way as the rest of the United Kingdom. Among those voting for this admirable principle were Mrs. Margaret Thatcher, Mr. William Whitelaw, Mr. Francis Pym, Mr. David Howell and Mr. William Van Straubenzee—both of whom had ministerial experience in Northern Ireland during the 1970s and who were therefore in a strong position to know that they were doing the right thing —and a great many other honourable Members of great experience who had obviously given the matter deep thought. I can do no better than quote the words of the Conservative Party Front Bench spokesman, speaking on 12th January, in an earlier debate on this matter. He was worried about the future of Northern Ireland and its relationship to the United Kingdom. He said:
"We simply cannot afford to get this wrong, to touch this nerve in the wrong way and cause this pain and harm.
We believe … that the Government's proposal touches this nerve in the wrong way. We believe that it would create all over again in Northern Ireland surmise and speculation about the future attitude of this Government and the House of Commons towards Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom. That would be surmise and speculation of a kind that we cannot afford".—[Official Report, Commons, 12/1/78; col. 1983.]
The Earl of MANSFIELD: May I interrupt the noble Lord? His head is buried so deep in Hansard that I, for one, have not gathered whom it was that he was quoting. I hope that it was a Minister.
Lord MONSON: I am quoting from Mr. Douglas Hird, who is a Front Bench spokesman. Therefore it is in order for me to quote him.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: I do not think that the noble Lord is in order.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: The problem the noble Lord has is that the noble Lord, under the Rules of the House, is allowed to quote only the words of a Minister.
Lord MONSON: I understand. I shall try to paraphrase the next quotation in that case.
It was not only the Conservatives who were unhappy about the proposed treatment of Northern Ireland, because an honourable Member sitting on the Labour Benches, who had been a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Minister of State in Northern Ireland at one time, expressed the opinion that one of the reasons that very little progress had been made in Northern Ireland was that there was continual emphasis that the people of Northern Ireland were different from those in the rest of the United Kingdom and must be treated differently.
The aim of the Provisional IRA is, and always has been, to separate, to divide, Northern Ireland from Great Britain institutionally—which has a bearing on what we are discussing—and hence psychologically, and hence, ultimately, constitutionally. Unfortunately, this sort of differential treatment, albeit quite unintentionally, does in a minor way go some way towards suiting the Provisionals' long-term objectives. Now uniformity will have to apply in respect of subsequent European elections throughout the United Kingdom and throughout Europe, in any case, so why stir up a hornets' nest now?
I urge noble Lords who put their names to this Amendment, if they press it to a Division and win, to consider accepting an Amendment at the next stage that will
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extend proportional representation, on the same basis as applies in Great Britain, to Northern Ireland. Proportional representation will, after all, give the minorities a fair crack of the whip. Let us not forget that there is certainly more than one minority in Northern Ireland: there are all kinds of subtleties and gradations. This will, in the long term, help to preserve the unity of the Kingdom, an objective which every noble Lord has fervently upheld during our discussions on the Scotland Bill earlier this week.
Lord FRASER of KILMORACK: I had not intended to intervene in your Lordships' debate this evening. Least of all had I intended to cross swords with my noble friends, Lord Alport and Lord Blake, with whom I normally agree over a wide area. However, I must admit that I have been rather worried by some of the things that have been said in this debate. I have been a firm supporter of Britain's involvement and increasing influence in Europe over a long period. I believe that in life one must get one's priorities right. I believe that one must have a certain realism.
I have no wish to argue against proportional representation or in favour of the first-past-the-post system. Indeed, I think that there is a place for both in different Assemblies. I personally showed by my vote in the case of the debate about Scotland, and the vote the other day, that I was quite favourably disposed towards a proportional system in a subordinate Assembly, if I may put it that way, as a Scot. But I think what is important at the moment is that this Bill, which makes possible direct elections to the European Parliament, will show to our friends and allies in Europe that we in Britain are serious, that we intend that this is not merely a sort of marriage of convenience, but is actually something that we intend to make work and see that it does work increasingly well as time goes on. Therefore, I personally think that the timetable arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, were wholly convincing to me and I hoped that they would be to your Lordships' House. I would certainly oppose this Amendment if it were pressed to a Division.
5.50 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I think that it would be appropriate, following that very powerful speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Fraser, for me to answer a number of the points that have been raised in the course of this debate. Let me begin by dealing with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Alport. I do not deny—indeed, I made it clear when I spoke on the last Amendment—that there is a majority in this House in favour of proportional representation. That is manifestly true. It has been indicated on a number of occasions, not least on the occasion of the Scotland Bill.
With great respect to the noble Lord, for whom I have high regard, he overstates his case when he suggests that I have made a threat of some sort concerning the House of Commons. I made no such threat. I was asked by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, what would be the position if there were to be a General Election. I may seem to speak in a rather self-interested way, but I profoundly hope there will not be an immediate appeal to the country; the Government have many important measures to put before Parliament. I simply responded to the point made by the noble Earl; manifestly, if a major Bill is going through and has not reached the Statute Book, it is obvious that it will fall, and a problem would clearly arise. This point was made much more emphatically by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, speaking with all his authority as a former Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister.
There is, therefore, no question of a threat. It is a simple question of making the sort of judgment which the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Kilmorack, just made; namely, is there really likely to be any serious prospect of another place forming a totally different view on this matter? My answer is: No, I do not think there is any such prospect. In the light of that, we must consider these time-tabling problems because they go to the very heart of this question, and I propose to deal with them rather more fully than I did on the last Amendment, for reasons which will become obvious as I do so.
I do not in any way wish to suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn—who pointed out that nobody had so far spoken against the system proposed in the Amend
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ment— that there is not an argument against it. I do not want to go into a great deal of detail about the arguments he adduced, save to mention two points of principle which would undoubtedly be taken were this to go back to the House of Commons. The first would be that one would have two different types of representative; some would be directly elected and some would come from the Party list. Next, it would give a substantial amount of power to the central Party organisation because the order in which people appear on the Party list is obviously of great importance. Those are two arguments; but there are many others which would be adduced by those who are highly critical of this proposal.
But the central argument, to which I wish to return, is that I do not believe a majority in another place would favour Amendments of this character. Undoubtedly they would consider them, possibly at significant length, but then the Bill would return here much as it is now, except that by that time we should have lost many valuable months in terms of the run-up to this crucially important series of elections.
Several noble Lords: No!
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Yes, indeed. I will come to the time tabling points because, with respect to noble Lords on the Liberal Benches, they cannot be brushed aside as they tended to be when we discussed the last group of Amendments. Let me go through this point because it is absolutely essential to the decision which the Committee will have to make on this matter today.
As I indicated when I spoke to the last group of Amendments, if this Bill goes forward without amendment it will receive its Royal Assent probably some time in the middle of May. That will leave perhaps just under a year between then and nomination day for the European Assembly elections. That may at first sight appear a very substantial amount of time indeed, but in fact it is not, and for several reasons. First, a substantial, indeed a formidable, burden of work will affect a very large number of people, first of all the political Parties, then the Boundary Commission and then the potential candidates and those who will be involved in the election campaign and the

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conduct of the elections themselves. In terms of this whole question of timing, the critical path relates to the work of the Boundary Commission in drawing up what will be the European Assembly constituencies. I am talking now on the assumption that the Bill remains in its present form. I believe it will, for the reasons I have given; namely that the House of Commons has already made a judgment on this matter and will maintain its position.
Baroness ELLES: Would the noble Lord agree that, even if we had the system which is at present before the Committee, there would still have to be work by the Boundary Commission, so the same argument would apply?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I take the point. The position is that, as drafted, the Bill requires the European Assembly constituencies to consist of groupings of Parliamentary constituencies. Inevitably, it will take the Boundary Commission a little time—not a formidably long time; perhaps a few weeks after Royal Assent—before they will be in a position to publish their provisional recommendations. Obviously, they have given a certain amount of thought to this since the other place took its decision against the regional list system. But following the publication of the recommendations of the Boundary Commission—and I have indicated that in my view that will take only a few weeks—time must then be allowed for the political Parties and for all the others concerned to consider the Commission's provisional recommendations and, if they wish, to make representations about them.
The Bill does not provide for the holding of any form of local inquiry, and this is very important indeed. So far as Parliamentary elections are concerned, the Boundary Commission does its work, publishes its recommendations and then there are local inquiries. But this time there will not be any local inquiries. It will be a matter for the Boundary Commission to publish its provisonal recommendations and for the political Parties and others then to make recommendations and for the Boundary Commission to come to a final judgment, and then Motions will ultimately be put before both Houses of
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Parliament. Therefore the representations which will go to the Commission when it publishes its recommendations are matters of great importance, and obviously a fair amount of time must be given to that matter.
Some estimates have been made. A minimum of 18 weeks is an estimate which the Boundary Commission has made, and I emphasise "minimum" because it could well be that some of these groupings together of Parliamentary constituencies will give rise to a substantial amount of political debate. Consider some obvious examples; the way in which constituencies are carved out of what is in fact Greater London will be a very difficult matter in itself in which to achieve a fair degree of tranquillity so far as all the respective political Parties are concerned. There will, therefore, undoubtedly be a period for representations to the Boundary Commission, and sometimes very substantial issues indeed could be involved. That is why I believe the 18 weeks minimum which they themselves have forecast is very much a minimum.
Lord WIGODER: Would the Minister agree that the best estimate the Boundary Commission were able to give to the Select Committee was 18 weeks and that the word "minimum" was not used? Would he further agree with the Home Secretary, who said on 6th July, in the other place, that the advice of the Boundary Commission was that it would take 18 weeks after the passage of the Bill?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: With respect to the noble Lord, the point I am making is a simple one. Certainly the period of 18 weeks came from the Boundary Commission, when, as I indicated, they were giving their evidence to the Select Committee. We are talking about a situation here which the Boundary Commission have themselves not been confronted with in the past; namely, this truncated procedure whereby they will have to give a great deal more attention to the representations than they have ever had to do before because in the past there has always been the local inquiry where people could put their case forward before an assistant commissioner, and the Boundary Commission could have another look at the matter. Therefore, it seems to me that 18 weeks could well be a minimum, and we have to face that fact.

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When the Boundary Commissions gave evidence they made this forecast of 18 weeks. As I have pointed out to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, who raised this matter with me, I think in correspondence, after the Second Reading of the Bill, the procedures could undoubtedly take longer if there was a very substantial volume of representations, or—and this is not, again, an unimportant point—if the work is extended because of the summer holiday season. The point is this. if the Boundary Commission is in a position to formulate its initial representations some time in the month of June, as in my view it would be in a position to do were the Bill to receive Royal Assent in the middle of May, all the recommendations would he published well before the holiday season began. But what would happen if we had to re-examine this matter in perhaps several weeks' time when the Bill comes back and then does not receive Royal Assent before, say, the middle or end of July? That in itself could be another factor which would affect the time-scale of the work of the Boundary Commission.
When the Boundary Commissions have considered the representations that are made on their provisional proposals, they will review these proposals and submit their reports with their final recommendations to the Secretary of State, and he will lay before both Houses of Parliament a draft Order in Council giving effect to the recommendations, with or without modification. But the Secretary of State himself is in this position: we are working under a truncated procedure, and he may find himself being questioned by groups of Members of Parliament who were protesting about various aspects of the recommendations of the Boundary Commission. It would be quite impossible for a Minister in that situation to brush the matter aside as being of no account; obviously he would have to consider the question. This, again, would he a delay, on this occasion between the receipt of the final report of the Boundary Commission and the presentation of the recommendations, with or without modification, to both Houses of Parliament—
Lord WIGODER: If the noble Lord will forgive my interrupting him, I should like to point out that the Home Secretary said in November that it should take the Boundary Commission only a couple of
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weeks to produce its initial proposals. Did the Home Secretary not also say that the Commission could do preliminary work before Royal Assent? Is the noble Lord not rather stretching this timetable to suit his own convenience?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I fear that that is a wholly unworthy argument of the noble Lord. If he takes the trouble to read my speech tomorrow he will find that I have already made that point. In fact, he missed the point completely. I have already indicated that it would be a matter of only a few weeks before the Commission was in a position to publish its proposals. Indeed, the time-scale of May to June demonstrates that the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, has missed the point altogether.
As I have indicated, there is the period in which the Commission does its work. There is also the position of the Secretary of State. when he is asked to meet Members of Parliament and others who may be seriously dissatisfied with the work of the Boundary Commission. After that process, if modifications were proposed, a statement of reasons must be laid before Parliament so that the position is made quite clear, and Motions to approve the draft Order in Council must then be passed by Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. Undoubtedly it is difficult to give a precise timetable—indeed, it is quite impossible to do so. But in total it seems reasonable to expect that the new European Assembly constituencies could not finally be determined until six months after Royal Assent had been given to the Bill—and it could be longer.
Six months having elapsed between Royal Assent and the end of this particular procedure, it would then be necessary for the political Parties to make a start on the process of selecting candidates. A candidate cannot be selected until the boundaries of the constituency are known; that is self-evident. Somebody, I believe, said that he could do that, but I do not believe that other political Parties would find that very easy. I do not know how one would begin to assemble the selection committee if the area of the new Assembly constituency was not known. This, again, creates substantial problems.
Once again, undoubtedly some advance work can be done by the political Parties,

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centrally and through some of their regional organisations, but the procedures for the selection of candidates cannot properly be finalised until the constituencies for European Assembly elections have been finally approved by Parliament. Bearing in mind that each European Assembly constituency will consist of, roughly, eight Westminster constituencies, the procedures for the selection of candidates will themselves be fairly complicated. In many cases they will cover very substantial areas of England.
I may hurriedly say that I am not a member of the Boundary Commission, but in giving some indication of the size of some of the constituencies, which may be of interest to the Committee, let me make one assumption, which may of course be falsified by what the Boundary Commission recommends. A new European Assembly constituency could have to cover the following Parliamentary constituencies (if the matter proceeds on this basis): Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Oswestry, The Wrekin, Kidderminster, and South Worcestershire. That may, or may not, be what the Boundary Commission recommends. But that is a fairly typical size of constituency for the new European Assembly—
Lord GLADWYN: Will the noble Lord—
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: This is a rather complicated argument, and I should like to continue to go through it with some care. The total area concerned is over 2,600 square miles. That gives one an indication of the sheer size of a constituency of this character. Its electorate would be in the region of half a million. In an area such as that—and here I speak from my experience of the Labour Party—it is necessary to bring together to work and to select a candidate large numbers of people who have never been involved in local contact with one another at any previous stage. I assure the Committee, on the basis of what experience I once had in matters of this kind, and the experience which the noble Lord, Lord Fraser, had in such matters, that this is in itself a very formidable undertaking. It cannot begin until the new constituencies have been determined.
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If the Bill gets Royal Assent, this procedure should be able to start in about November, in my view. There would then be a period between November and what would then be nomination day to do all this work. But if we slipped behind and Royal Assent did not come until July—I am leaving on one side altogether the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, that the Bill might die completely for totally different reasons—we would then be in a position of not being able to do anything until at least January, or even I think into February, because of the summer holiday season, which is a very important factor, as I mentioned earlier. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, would now care to intervene.
Lord GLADWYN: The noble Lord is making much heavy weather about the timetable. But presumably the timetable would be much the same whether the AMS or the first-past-the-post system were adopted. It would presumably take the same amount of time. It might be even less, perhaps, with the AMS. That being so, of course it is a fact that we ought to get the Royal Assent as soon as we can. But does the noble Lord think that the Royal Assent will be notably delayed by the acceptance of AMS in this Committee? It would go to the other place, and they could accept it or reject it. If they accepted it, all the details would be worked out, the Boundary Commission would begin working and there would be no delay at all except for a few days. Why should there be all this delay, and why is there all this emphasis on delay?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I tried to deal with that point on the last Amendment, when the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, suggested that in certain circumstances there could indeed be a delay of only 48 hours or so. I tried to point out that, although that might be possible when one was talking about some piece of legislation dealing with the prevention of terrorism, or something of that sort, where there was a clear national priority to get widely agreed legislation through at great speed in the national interest, it would in fact be wholly wrong to believe that a procedure of that sort was even remotely possible as far as this piece of legislation is concerned, because this is legislation which has already required a guillotine

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Motion in the House of Commons. Not having been a Member of that august body, but certainly having been present at a number of its proceedings, I do not believe for a moment that anybody in the House of Commons could possibly suggest a procedure of this sort on what is in fact, as far as a number of Members of another place are concerned, bitterly contested legislation. Therefore, I believe that if there were to be a delay it would be a delay of many weeks, and not of 48 hours.
Now I have put the point as far as the timetable is concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn—
Lord BYERS: Before the noble Lord leaves that point of the timetable, which is extremely important, I would point out that, when he says there could be a delay of several weeks, the decision on the legislative programme is in the hands of the Government. If the Government want to get the Amendment—and there is only one Amendment—through the House of Commons, they have to give it only a few hours and it can be done. It is the Government which are responsible, and not the Opposition.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, I do not want to go over all the ground that I covered when speaking on the last group of Amendments, but I must say to him that that, if he will forgive me for saying so, is again unrealistic. The group of Amendments which we are now talking about concern a totally new voting system which has not been discussed in detail. It was not discussed at all in another place; I give him that point immediately. There would then, perfectly reasonably, be an insistence that before there was any suggestion of a totally new voting system being incorporated in this legislation there should be a most prolonged period for debate, and it would be very difficult, it seems to me, to refuse a fairly significant debate.
What I have to say to the noble Lord is this. He is, of course, quite right: the Government are in charge of the Parliamentary timetable. But there is already another Bill in another place, the Wales Bill, which is supported, indeed, by his honourable friends, which is itself already working under a guillotine; there is
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already the Finance Bill; and, as far as this measure is concerned, there would be not only a major issue of principle but again the possibility of having to introduce another guillotine Motion in another place in order to control the timetable problems which would otherwise arise. Therefore, the reason why I have, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said, made rather heavy weather of the timetable argument is because it is absolutely central to the debate we are now having. I believe that we have the prospect of getting this measure on the Statute Book within a few weeks, by the middle of May, and of getting this whole Boundary Commission procedure concluded by November. In that situation, it seems to me that the case for rejecting these Amendments is very strong indeed.
I come back to the point that I made at the beginning. I have no doubt that in this Committee there is a substantial majority of Members who are in favour of proportional representation. I do not deny that for one moment. What I am saying on this occasion is that here we are discussing a measure which is going to have the most decisive significance for the whole future of Europe, and it seems to me that to put that measure in any form of jeopardy would be a very serious matter indeed.
6.17 p.m.
Lord CHELWOOD: I thought that perhaps someone was about to rise from the Front Bench, but I see they are not. I am very grateful indeed to all the noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, I thought that it in fact warmed up quite a lot and had quite a lot of stuffing in it. There have been some very constructive and practical speeches made. I would see no reason to ask leave to withdraw this Amendment if other things were equal. But they are not equal. Another place is, very rightly, much more equal than we are. They have already pronounced their clear verdict on proportional representation in its rather crude form of the regional list, with some passing references to the additional Member system, which we have just been debating. The answer, as we all know, was a resounding "No", with more than half the Labour Party voting against proportional representation, the regional

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list system, in spite of the promises to the Liberal Party—and I am not at all surprised that they feel pretty sore about it.
The Amendment we have debated is something which, it is quite clear to me, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has just said, your Lordships support strongly in principle; but it would surely suffer the same fate in another place as the regional list system suffered, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has also said. I myself see very little point indeed in beating the air on this occasion. I find that argument a convincing one. But, like the noble Lord, Lord Blake, whose speech we all enjoyed enormously, particularly as he speaks from such great experience in these matters, I find it very hard to believe that passing these Amendments could possibly imperil the Bill or delay it for more than a month or so, which really would not matter. But that is what we are told. I remain only half convinced, and I feel strongly that if there was a will to get a Bill including the additional Member system on the Statute Book in ample time, a way could be found; but I do not think that such a will exists.
This is in fact, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has also reminded us, a bitterly contested Bill. Perhaps that is why, when I fell asleep last night with my
speech on my mind, I dreamt that I was just about to ask leave to withdraw this Amendment when I received a message from Mr. Michael Foot saying that Mr. Wedgwood Benn and Mr. John Silkin had volunteered as Tellers to ensure that our Amendments were agreed by another place. In the rush to volunteer, Mr. Enoch Powell, Mr. Douglas Jay, Mr. Neil Marten and three Cabinet Ministers had been slightly hurt, but were making an excellent recovery. Three-line Whips were going to be imposed, and the guillotine. But no such message has arrived, and today we face the reality.
That is why, sadly, I feel that I have no alternative but to ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment, a course which I warned the other three sponsors I might well have to follow. We live to fight another day; and I sincerely hope and believe that this debate will at any rate arouse even wider interest in the whole subject of proportional representation, not only for the European Parliament. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
6.20 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No.3) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 61; Not-Contents, 85.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Hampton, L.

Robson of Kiddington, B.

Alport, L.

Hanworth, V.

Rochester, L.

Amherst, E.

Henley, L.

St. Davids, V.

Ampthill, L.

Hunt, L.

Seear, B.

Amulree, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Shinwell, L.

Avebury, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Simon, V.

Banks, L. [Teller.]

Kilmarnock, L.

Somers, L.

Barrington, V.

Kimberley, E.

Southwell, Bp.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L. [Teller.]

Stamp, L.

Blake, L.

Loudoun, C.

Strathspey, L.

Byers, L.

Mackie of Benshie, L.

Swaythling, L.

Caccia, L.

McNair, L.

Tanlaw, L.

Chitnis, L.

Merrivale, L.

Thurlow, L.

Craigavon, V.

Monson, L.

Thurso. V.

Croft, L.

Norwich, V.

Wade, L.

De Ramsey. L.

O'Brien of Lothbury, L.

Wigoder, L.

Esher, V.

Ogmore, L.

Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.

Foot, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Young of Dartington, L.

Garner, L.

Platt, L.

Younger of Leckie, V.

Gladwyn, L.

Porritt, L.

Grey, F.

Rea, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Gaitskell, B.

Phillips, B.

Belstead, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Birk, B.

Goronwy-Roberts, L.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Gray, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Hale, L.

Sharpies, B.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Shepherd, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Hawke, L.

Snow, L.

Carrington, L.

Henderson, L.

Spens, L.

Champion, L.

Hives, L.

Stedman, B. [Teller.]

Clitheroe, L.

Hood, V.

Stewart of Alvechurch, B.

Collison, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Stone, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Jacques, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Strathclyde, L.

Crathorne, L.

Long, V.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Lyell, L.

Swinton, E.

Daventry, V.

McGregor of Durris, L.

Tenby, V.

De Freyne, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Tweeddale, M.

Denham, L.

Mancroft, L.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Mansfield, E.

Vickers, B.

Dormer, L.

Marley, L.

Vivian, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Monck, V.

Wallace of Coslany, L. [Teller.]

Dowding. L.

Morris, L.

Ward of North Tyneside, B.

Elles, B.

Mottistonc, L.

Westbury, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

White, B.

Elwyn-Jones, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Murray of Gravesend, L.

Willis, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Northchurch, B.

Winterbottom, L.

Ferrers. E.

Nugent of Guildford, L. [Teller.]

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

O'Hagan, L.

Gainford. L.

Peart, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

6.28 p.m.
[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]
Clause 3 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 5 to 12 not moved.]
Lord BANKS Lord BANKS moved Amendment No. 13:
After Clause 3, insert the following new clause:—
British subjects overseas entitled to vote in European elections
(".British subjects who would have been entitled to register as electors for a European election had they been resident within the United Kingdom but who are not on anyelectoral register for European elections within the United Kingdom because at the previous qualifying date they were resident in another member state of the European Communities, shall be entitled to register and to vote by post or proxy only in a European election provided that they or their spouse have previously resided in the United Kingdom and provided that they have a right of abode therein within the meaning of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971.")
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 13 which seeks to give the vote in the elections to the European Assembly to British subjects living within the European Economic Communities area but living outside the United
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Kingdom; in other words, to give the vote to all British subjects living within the area covered by the Parliament. We believe that it is right that all nationals of Member States should have a vote in the European elections wherever, within the Community, they live.
Ideally, Member States of the EEC would give a vote to EEC nationals of other countries living in their territories and eventually, one hopes, that is what will happen. In the meantime, we can enfranchise in this way those of our own nationals living elsewhere in the Community. It may be said that since they do not pay British taxes, why should they have votes? But, of course, the European Economic Community is to be maintained by its own resources—by the levies and the 1 per cent. of VAT—so that the EEC Budget will be something which is eventually independent of national Governments.
Already, of course, there are British subjects living in other Community countries who do get a vote—people in the Armed Forces, embassy staffs, the staffs of British Council offices. All these get a vote on the British register. It is estimated that if this Amendment were passed it would bring in about 200,000 people working and living in the European Economic Community but not

855
actually living in this country. They would be British subjects living overseas within the Community. The condition would be that they or their spouses had lived in this country previously and that they had a" right of abode", as defined in the Amendment—a right of abode in this country.
When evidence was given by the Home Office to the House of Commons Select Committee they indicated that it was not impossible to do this. Of course, other countries in fact do it. The Select Committee of the House of Commons recommended that all British nationals overseas should receive a vote in these elections—wherever they were living, whether in the Community or not. That, I think, would he a separate issue and would involve all elections in this country and not merely elections for Europe. The Government have said that that matter should be referred to a Speaker's Conference. I can see that there is a case for that.
But when we are considering only British residents within the EEC, then they undoubtedly come within the scope of this Bill. If it is said that a change of that kind ought to mean a reference to a Speaker's Conference, one can point to the fact that a change of a very far-reaching nature was contemplated in the electoral system without that going to a Speaker's Conference, had the other House chosen the proportional system that was originally included in the Bill. If we were to accord this vote in the way I have described, it would be an expression of our sense of the unity of the Community, and I very much hope that the Committee will look sympathetically on this Amendment.
Lord MOTTISTONE: Will the noble Lord explain something which does not seem clear to me? Would this Amendment apply to somebody who did not have a residence or any property in this country? If so, how would the voting be handled if they did not have some base here? Is it, as in the Services, intended to apply to people who have a base in the United Kingdom?
Lord BANKS: It would apply, as the Amendment states, to any British nationals living in the Community—he or his wife, if a man, or she and her husband, if a
856
woman—who have previously lived within the Community and had a right of abode, so that they could come back to live here if they wanted to do so or were required to do so? Anybody in that category could apply to register, and there would be regulations indicating what they would have to do, how they should complete the application and what the necessary verification would be. This matter was examined by the Select Committee of the House of Commons and it was clear to them that it was not impossible to do this.
Lord MOTTISTONE: If the Committee will forgive me, I want to pursue this matter because it seems unclear. So it would be necessary to have an order which would provide the regulations to the effect that people could apply to vote in such and such a constituency or region, or something like that? This particular Amendment does not make any provision for such an order to be laid.
Lord BANKS: No, but there is power within the Bill to issue regulations which could cover this question. The question of any double voting, attempted fraud or matters of that kind could be dealt with by means of regulations, and the regulations would have to lay down the means of application, title, form and so on, which are not included in this Amendment which deals with the principle.
6.35 p.m.
Baroness ELLES: If I may say a few words on this Amendment, I ought to declare an interest, having a son who works in the Commission in Brussels and who will be affected if this Amendment is not accepted. There are three matters to consider in relation to the Amendment. We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Banks, for having raised this as a matter of principle. The three issues we have to consider are: first, is the principle acceptable that the franchise for European elections should be extended to include British residents in other European Community Member States? Secondly, does the Amendment itself, as it stands, deal adequately and fully with these matters which fall to be considered if the principle is accepted? Thirdly, if it were to be accepted, what would the consequences be for the holding of the elections?
There is no doubt from former debates both here and in the other place, and from

857
evidence from individuals affected by this Amendment, that thousands of British citizens resident in the Community have a cause for grievance. Many of them are concerned actively in working for the benefit of the United Kingdom, both in governmental organisations and business, and will be deprived of a vote in the election, the outcome of which may directly affect their interests. Everybody agrees that this is so. But it is a question of asking oneself: Why should British subjects be excluded from one type of election and included for another? I believe that we should have—and the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has already referred to this—a Speaker's Conference that would consider this matter not only for the elections to the European Assembly but also for General Elections for this country, as indeed other Member States manage to provide.
All the other major Member States of the Community manage to make arrangements in one form or another for their citizens to take part in General Elections when they are abroad. I understand on good authority that they have made arrangements for them to do so in the European elections. Here again we will be the only major country of the Community which excludes the rights of our citizens abroad in the Community to vote. Again, we are the only country which, in any case, gives the right to aliens, citizens of the Irish Republic resident in the United Kingdom to take, part in General Elections, and, as I understand it, who will be taking part in the Community elections. So one must sometimes ask oneself: Why is it that a pensioner in Penzance is going to be allowed to vote in a European election, but a pensioner in Provence will be deprived of this right? This is something which undoubtedly the Government or a future Government will have to look at when we come to consider uniform procedure after this current election.
I do not want to delay the Committee; we have gone through a great many matters of principle during this afternoon in Committee. While supporting the principle of the Amendment, it is not drafted in a way that could possibly he acceptable, first, because of the very wide categories of people who are included, which are certainly not in accordance with the Home Office memorandum which was included in the third report.
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Of course there are many matters, such as the safeguarding of the procedures like double voting, declarations of identity, how the vote will be taken, whether it will be through embassies or consulates, or whether it will be done by proxy or postal vote from the United Kingdom, which will have to be looked into. They of course are not covered by this Amendment. As on previous Amendments put forward to the Committee, I believe that the overriding consideration is to get this Bill through as quickly as possible. So although I support the principle of it, I cannot support the Amendment.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: I shall be very brief, if I may. It is purely coincidental, but I found a speech that I made three years ago about these unfortunate disenfranchised people over the referendum. Then the figure was given as 150,000. My noble friend Lord Banks now says that it is 200,000. If my memory serves me right, they were called "Lotus eaters". I still think that, having been disenfranchised over the referendum, they should no longer be disenfranchised over the European Parliament.
6.39 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I should like to deal with the speeches which have been made on this Amendment; but, before doing so, perhaps I may deal with one point which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, on the previous Amendment. He and I are involved from time to time in discussions in this House on a wide range of measures. We generally agree that we do our best to give a factually accurate statement when we do so. He challenged me on my statement about the Boundary Commission mentioning a minimum of 18 weeks. If he looks at the Second Report of the Select Committee on Direct Elections to the European Parliament, volume 2, he will find in paragraph 13:
"The English Commission estimate that their recommendations could be presented in a minimum of 18 weeks".
The noble Lord challenged me on that, but I am sure he will accept that I did not in any way misinterpret what had been said.
Lord WIGODER: I entirely accept that and I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. It was my own fault for relying

859
on the interpretation put upon it by the Home Secretary!
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: I am much obliged. The question of the franchise is obviously a central feature in any electoral Bill. The question of who is to elect the representatives of the people of the United Kingdom in the European Assembly is one which it is right to discuss in this Chamber. Certainly the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Banks, is one of considerable importance and I would not wish to minimise its significance. It is also right that this Chamber should take a special interest in the rights of minorities, such as citizens of this country who live and work in the European Community and to whom the noble Lord referred. I certainly do not in any way under-estimate the strong feelings of those involved. I appreciate that those who have chosen to live and work in the European Community wish to have the franchise extended to them. That applies especially to those who work in Brussels, as does the son of the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, or in the other centres of the bodies of the European Community.
British civil servants, diplomatic personnel and Servicemen may, of course, vote by proxy or in person as Service voters. So as far as they are concerned there is no problem; but they are the only categories to whom the normal criterion of residence in a constituency in the United Kingdom on the qualifying date does not apply. I appreciate that there are feelings of injustice about this system, and indeed they have been mentioned to me by a number of those who are involved.
The proposal before your Lordships today would extend the franchise to all eligible United Kingdom citizens resident in the Community. It is not restricted to those who are there by virtue of occupation or employment, and still less to those who are employed by the Communities themselves. It extends to all who live and work there. The Select Committee on Direct Elections in another place paid a great deal of attention to this point. They concluded that the franchise could be extended to cover all citizens resident abroad without having an impact on the procedure at our Westminster elections. The Select Committee then discussed this matter and made their recommendation.
860
They did, of course, go further than the Amendment, which is a very important consideration when one comes to this question of possible injustice.
They recommended an extension of the franchise to all United Kingdom subjects resident abroad, and not simply, as this Amendment does, to those resident in the European Communities. They were conscious of the anomalies that would be created if, for instance, an international civil servant resident in Brussels had the vote in our elections for representatives, but one resident in Geneva—which is after all a focal point of activity for a very large number of international organisations—did not.
The proposal before your Lordships today, therefore, does create some difficulties of principle on which no clear consensus has so far emerged. It would certainly involve radical change in our electoral laws, which have always been based on residence. In our judgment, it would not be appropriate to make major changes of this kind solely for the purpose of assembly elections. At the very least, a more detailed study than the Select Committee were able to undertake needs to be undertaken as regards the principles and practicalities of extending the franchise abroad for assembly elections and for all other elections as a consequence of that.
It may help the Committee if I set out briefly some of the practical difficulties that would arise. They were referred to in the Home Office memorandum of evidence on this subject that was presented to the Committee. I do not claim that they are insuperable objections, but they are certainly matters of some substance which, given the fairly limited amount of time we are talking about, would raise some quite formidable problems if we were now to introduce them before the elections which are due next year.
First, there is the question of attestation and of validity of the vote. I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has it in mind that the citizens affected by this Amendment would have their names entered on a supplement to the normal electoral register, having satisfied the electoral registration officer for the area in which they were previously residing that they fulfilled the qualifications he has laid down.

861
At some stage they would have to satisfy someone of their bona fides: that is clear. There would have to be some guarantee of the validity of an application which might come in from abroad.
A scheme involving British diplomatic posts would, of course, be one answer to the problem; but that would impose a very significant new burden on the Diplomatic Service when, as we know, Foreign and Commonwealth manpower and expenditure are under the most intense pressure. Nor could diplomatic staff serving overseas be expected to treat lightly an exercise which required posts to validate or attest a declarant's citizenship and right of abode. The Select Committee of another place which went into this matter stated therefore that the statutory declaration should be attested by an appropriate official under the law of the host country and should be verified by the applicant employee. There is no provision for this in the particular Amendment which has been put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Banks, but I assume he has some such form of procedure in mind. But, in a matter of this importance, is this a sufficiently tight safeguard? Certainly there may be some of your Lordships who feel that in a matter of this importance the electoral registration officer should not be put into the exceptionally difficult situation that could arise of attesting both the validity of the application and, in some cases, the validity of the official overseas who has attested it.
Secondly, there is the substantial extension of postal and proxy voting which an Amendment on these lines would involve. Obviously, there is always the risk of abuse when it is not the voter himself who votes or if he votes by post rather than in person. We must be quite sure that we have taken full account of the dimensions of this problem, and I do not think at the moment that we have the opportunity of doing so.
The Bill which is presently before your Lordships does not seek to initiate any major changes in our electoral law. It simply seeks to apply the existing and tried provisions to the new elections. The Government do not believe that changes of the magnitude proposed in the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Banks, should be made in isolation and without due thought to the practicalities
862
and to the effect on our electoral system. I have suggested what some of these practical difficulties are, and certainly we intend that the unresolved issues should be considered by the next Speaker's Conference on Electoral Law. For the reasons I have given, and especially in view of the vote in another place, I hope that noble Lords will accept that it would not be right to press the matter today.
I repeal that I accept that there is a feeling of injustice about this whole situation. I have indicated that the Speaker's Conference is one way of resolving what is a difficult problem, to some extent of principle but far more in terms of the practicalities of the situation. I do not believe that all the feelings of injustice would be removed were this Amendment to be carried, for the reason that I gave a few moments ago. For perfectly understandable reasons, the noble Lord has chosen to give the franchise to people who are living in one group of countries, but in no other. You would have the vote if you lived in Brussels, but you would not have it if you lived in New York, or, as I indicated, in Geneva, or in Oslo. It seems to me that there would undoubtedly be some pleasure among some of those who would be enfranchised, but there would also be a deep sense of injustice among those who were not included, who would take the view that it was a most arbitrary way in which Parliament had chosen to act, by simply selecting people who were living in Member States of the Community.
Lastly, in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Byers, may I say that I do not propose to go at any great length into the matters which we have already been discussing; namely, the timetabling problems of this Bill. But I would put this to the Committee. This is an important matter and I do not in any way underestimate that. But it seems to me that, given the fact that what we have been discussing today is an interim measure so far as the electoral procedures are concerned; given the fact that it was an obligation to move to some degree of uniformity in the future, it would be better to leave this matter as it is, with my assurance that it will be considered by the next Speaker's Conference, and not to return this matter to another place with all the consequences which could flow from that.
Lord BANKS: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, and my noble friend Lord Kimberley for the support which they have given to the principle which lies behind this Amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, has stressed the importance of the matter and I am glad that he has, and, in particular, that he has referred to the feeling of injustice, which undoubtedly there is. I should like to say that it seems to me that the situation within the EEC, and the situation so far as British subjects throughout the world are concerned, are completely separate issues, because, when we are dealing with British subjects living in the EEC, we are dealing with people within the sphere of the Parliament which is being elected. That is a new feature and that is why it is so important to pay attention to this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that qualifications have always been based on residence, but residence exists here. There is residence within the area which the Parliament covers. That is the problem which has to he faced.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for outlining all the problems and the difficulties. I must confess that I was not unaware of these. But I feel, as he seemed to feel, that these difficulties and problems must be tackled and that this is a matter which cannot be left, so that every time an election comes up we have to raise it again, as it has now been raised over the referendum and over these first elections. I very much hope that the Speaker's Conference, or whatever is required, will take place in time to make certain that this matter is dealt with before the second round of EEC elections. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Nugent of Guildford): I have no notice of any noble Lord wishing to raise anything on the remaining clauses. Therefore, unless any noble Lord wishes to do so, I shall put the Motion, That Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 stand part, together.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedule I [Simple majority system (for Great Britain) with STV (for Northern Ireland)]:
864
[Amendments Nos. 14 to 19 not moved.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES: I have notice from the noble Lord, Lord Gray, that he is not moving Amendments Nos. 19A, 19B, 19C and 19D.
[Amendments Nos. 19A to 19D anti 20 to 24 not moved.]
On Question, Whether Schedule 1 shall be the first Schedule to the Bill?
Lord GRAY: I am very conscious of the lateness of the hour and the importance of the issues that have been discussed this afternoon, as compared with the point which I should now like to mention, and to which the Amendments which I did not move were addressed. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is familiar with the arguments which I advanced yesterday, in respect of a purely identical matter in the Scotland Bill. I am sure also that he will be familiar with the reception accorded to my arguments by his noble and learned friend Lord McCluskey. I think that it would be inappropriate at this hour to rehearse again all the arguments which I deployed then, so perhaps I may just ask two questions of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich.
First, can he tell me whether, in the event that the Bill is not amended to cater for this comparatively minor point, subparagraph (3) of Schedule I, on page 6, line 4 and thereafter, can be used to ensure that those who have to prepare the registers and everything else are aware of the difficulties that appear to be inherent in the way in which Peers have been enfranchised, and can have their attention directed to taking steps to do what it is the Government really intend? May I also ask him, since in one context he has referred to this as an interim measure, whether he can say now that, if one day a new Bill or something similar is brought forward, this may be put right?
Lord O'HAGAN: I am sure that all of your Lordships will be grateful to my noble friend for his constant vigilance, from his special position on the Back Benches behind me, where he maintains a close watch for all the minor absurdities and errors which, from time to time,

865
inevitably creep into legislation. Turning his thoughts from licensed premises, he has been paying particular attention to the peculiarities of provisions for Members of your Lordships' House in the forthcoming series of elections which current legislation is bringing forward.
As my noble friend explained, in the interests of time he did not move his Amendments, and if the complicated questions that he has raised are not ones which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, is able to answer today, I am sure we shall all understand that it might be better for them to be dealt with at a later stage in the progress of this Bill. Nevertheless, it is most useful that we have had our minds focussed on this problem, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will be able to give to my noble friend Lord Gray a similarly friendly answer to that which his noble and learned friend was able to give to him yesterday.
HARRIS of GREENWICH: After as long a debate as we have had, I am certainly in the mood to give friendly answers to almost anybody. I will gladly look into the point raised by the noble Lord and will communicate with him before the next stage of the Bill.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 25 to 28 not moved.]
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.

  RACE RELATIONS ACT 1976: LOCAL AUTHORITY COMPLIANCE
  RACE RELATIONS ACT 1976: LOCAL AUTHORITY COMPLIANCE
  DEPORTATION and CUSTODIAL SENTENCES
  DEPORTATION and CUSTODIAL SENTENCES
  DEPORTATION: SUICIDE STATISTICS
  DEPORTATION: SUICIDE STATISTICS
  DEPORTATION: UNDECIDED CASES
  DEPORTATION: UNDECIDED CASES
  DEPORTATION: APPEALS
  DEPORTATION: APPEALS
  HORSE EXPORTS
  HORSE EXPORTS
  EMPLOYMENT LOSS ON POLITICAL GROUNDS
  EMPLOYMENT LOSS ON POLITICAL GROUNDS
  VIETNAM: HUMAN RIGHTS AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
  VIETNAM: HUMAN RIGHTS AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM